Podcasts about adea

Neste vídeo Gonzalo Córdoba fala sobre as perspectivas técnicas, estéticas e educacionais da iluminação na Argentina. Gonzalo Córdoba é iluminador, cenógrafo, diretor, artista visual, professor e pesquisador. Em produções de ópera, criou a iluminação para Ariadne auf Naxos, Così fan tutte, Candide, Tri Sestri, O Cônsul para Ruben Szuchmacher, O Estupro de Lucrécia, Wozzeck, A Flauta Mágica, O Morcego, Madama Butterfly para Horacio Pigozzi, O Traviata, Italiana em Argel, Serse para Pablo Maritano, cenografia e luzes para Leonor Manso em Lucia de Lammermoor e Tosca, para María Jaunarena em A Flauta Mágica, Outra Volta do Parafuso, Medea, Conde Ory e para Ana D'Anna em El barbero de Sevilla, Bohéme, Rigoletto, Hoffman's Tales, Turandot. Com André Heller Lopez iluminou Don Pasquale, Lucia de Lammermoor, Manon Lescaut, Merry Widow, Faust, Cosi fan tutte e As Bodas de Fígaro.Como diretor: "Proyecto Appia" para Enclaves no CETC, "El Límite de Schiller", iluminação da Puente de la Boca, Linha Azul do metrô de Buenos Aires. Mude a encenação de Emma Bovary e Maní con chocolate 2 com Ana Bovo, bem como "los Persas" de Ésquilo e "La Inhumana" com Alejandra Radano. Dirigiu Marta Roca em "Palabras Cuerdas". Escreveu dois ensaios sobre iluminação cênica "La Trampa de Goethe" e "La Iluminación Escénica", editados por El Rojas.Foi comtemplado com o Prémio Teatros do Mundo por "El Experimento Damanthal" e ACE 2005 por "Las Troyanas" e "Enrique IV"; Meu Deus". Ganhou os prêmios Teatros del Mundo em 2013 e o Maria Guerrero 2014 por Querido Ibsen, Soy Nora, Love Love e Cabaña Suiza, o Prêmio Trinidad Guevara 2015 por "La nueva autoridad" e em 2016 o Prêmio Trinidad Guevara por "Desonrado". Prêmio "Hugo" por Love Musik, 2017 Florencio Sánchez por "Todas as coisas do mundo" e Prêmio KONEX 2011.Atualmente trabalha como Professor na Universidade Nacional das Artes na disciplina de Projeto II, em História da Iluminação Cênica na carreira de design de iluminação de espetáculos, e em Teatro Musical. É membro da Associação ADEA de Designers Cênicos da Argentina.@‌gonzaloemicordova | SITE: gonzalocordova.com.ar

El Indicador de Opinión de ADEA, la Asociación de Directivos y Ejecutivos de Aragón, concluye que la economía moderará su crecimiento en 2025, pero las previsiones a medio plazo son buenas. Con todo, preocupa la incertidumbre por la guerra en Ucrania, la nueva política de aranceles de Donald Trump, el estancamiento del crecimiento en la Unión Europea, el agotamiento del mercado de trabajo y la falta de mano de obra.

Tertulia con los periodistas Genoveva Crespo, Juan Gavasa y Elena Puértolas. Hoy, con los ecos de la entrevista a Fernando Rodrigo, presidente de ADEA; continúan el debate sobre la financiación autonómica; valoración del presidente Jorge Azcón sobre los datos de empleo; el paso de Pedro Sánchez por Aragón en el día mundial contra el cáncer; y la resaca de la concentración de sindicatos médicos y de enfermería para la reducción de su jornada laboral.

Send us a textIn this episode, Dr. Margot Jacquot speaks with Eileen Lysaught about the critical aspects of employment law relevant to mental health practitioners. They discuss the importance of having an employment attorney, the nuances of corporate structures, and the distinctions between employees and independent contractors. Eileen emphasizes the necessity of proper documentation, such as operating agreements and offer letters, to safeguard practices from legal issues. The conversation also covers the implications of non-solicitation and non-compete agreements, providing valuable insights for practice owners. The discussion highlights the evolving nature of employment regulations and the necessity for business owners to stay informed and proactive in their practices.Eileen Lysaught joined Laner Muchin in 2024 as Of Counsel, launching the Firm's Corporate and Commercial Services practice. With over 30 years of experience in business and corporate counseling, she assists her clients with concerns related to corporate agreements and business and employment law counseling.Eileen has extensive experience in the drafting, review and negotiation of corporate agreements for clients related to asset sales and purchases, manufacturing, distribution, vendors, licensing, non-disclosure, leases, operating and shareholder agreements. Eileen is adept in drafting handbooks, record retention plans, and corporate policies as well as in assisting in the implementation and training on those policies. She is also well-versed in offering employment law guidance to assist clients on matters such as ADA disability accommodation requests, human resource auditing, preparing offer letters, severance and employment agreements, as well as guiding clients on matters related to EEOC, ADEA, FMLA and Title VII.Eileen has managed complex human resources issues, training programs and investigations. Prior to joining the firm, she owned a general counsel and business and employment law advisory law firm, where she regularly prepared policies and procedures related to employee leave, sexual harassment, COVID, telehealth and employment handbooks. Eileen also served as Capital Partner for an intellectual property firm where she handled human resources requirements including performance management, onboarding, training and employee counseling in addition to managing all employee training programs such as cybersecurity, sexual harassment, bystander, document retention and more.HONORS, MEMBERSHIPS AND PUBLICATIONSMember, Society of Human Resource Management, 2006 – PresentMember, American Corporate Counsel Association, 1999 – PresentPanelist Speaker: Building It To Scale: Growing a SMB at Every Level – Business Minute Clinic (2018)Eileen Lysaught OF COUNSELO: 312.467.9800 | elysaught@lanermuchin.comDr. Jacquot and her team at The Juniper Center specialize in comprehensive mental health services for individuals, families, and organizations. Whether you're seeking therapy, coaching, or professional consultation, they are here to help.Contact Dr. Margo Jacquot and The Juniper Center:Email: margojacquot@thejunipercenter.comWebsite: www.junipercenter.comBe sure to like this episode, subscribe to our podcast, and share it with someone who could benefit from Dr. Jacquot's expertise!

The ADA, ADHA, ADEA, and ASDA think dental compacts are dentistry's ticket to mobility and portability of licensure. That's a great thing if it's done right! The question is ... with the variations in delivered education from dental school to dental school, is this solution the right one? And can we trust organizations that are supposed to be looking out for our best interests? In today's episode, Pam and David are joined by Sheli Cobler and Matt Shafer to discuss the pros and cons of dental compacts. Where do you land on the issue?

In this episode Sue Scherer, RDH, BS and I discuss the crucial role dental hygienists play in caring for pregnant patients. Pregnancy brings significant changes that can affect oral health, and understanding these changes is essential for effective treatment and care. We'll cover everything from the increased risk of periodontal disease during pregnancy to the best practices for managing dental hygiene appointments to ensure both mother and baby's health are protected. This episode is packed with valuable information for dental professionals looking to enhance their knowledge and skills in prenatal dental care. Join us as we dive into the do's and don'ts of dental hygiene for expecting mothers, ensuring their smile stays bright and healthy throughout their pregnancy. Sue Scherer, RDH, BS is the Education Professional Relations Manager for Water Pik Inc. She has been a dental hygienist for over 20 years and has experience as a chairside clinician, dental hygiene program instructor, CE speaker and author. Sue is an active member of the ADHA, NJDHA, and ADEA. She is the Immediate Past President of the NJDHA and a member of the Bergen Community College Dental Hygiene Advisory Board. Sue is passionate about educating dental professionals. Her courses provide the current scientific evidence on topics that often bring confusion to patient care. Sue lives in Mahwah, NJ with her husband, two sons and their sweet rescue pup Harley. Recommended reading: https://www.rdhmag.com/patient-care/article/14279348/safely-caring-for-pregnant-dental-patients Recommended webinar: https://www.gotostage.com/channel/24830adc58984892be28b36a1108901b/recording/9948ab62d24c45caa4732c091b5eca72/watch Contact Sue Scherer: sscherer@waterpik.com

Chapter 10: Governmental and Regulatory Impact on Contracts explores the critical role that government and regulatory frameworks play in shaping contractual relationships. From consumer protection laws that safeguard consumers from unfair practices to antitrust laws that promote fair competition and employment laws that protect employees from discrimination, these regulations have a profound impact on how contracts are formed, enforced, and interpreted. Summary of Chapter 10: Governmental and Regulatory Impact on Contracts. Chapter 10 explores the significant influence of governmental and regulatory frameworks on employment contracts, focusing on consumer protection laws, antitrust laws, and employment contracts. The chapter examines how these laws shape the contractual relationships between employers and employees, ensuring fairness, transparency, and compliance with legal standards. 1. Consumer Protection Laws: Consumer protection laws are designed to safeguard consumers in the marketplace by imposing requirements on businesses to prevent unfair, deceptive, or fraudulent practices. Unfair and Deceptive Acts and Practices (UDAP): These laws prohibit businesses from engaging in practices that are likely to mislead or deceive consumers. Contracts that include unfair or deceptive terms may be voided, and businesses may face penalties. Truth in Lending Act (TILA): TILA requires lenders to provide clear and accurate disclosures of credit terms, ensuring that consumers understand the costs and conditions of their credit agreements. Non-compliance can result in rescission of the contract and penalties for lenders. 2. Antitrust Laws: Antitrust laws promote fair competition and prevent monopolistic practices that can harm consumers and the economy. These laws have a significant impact on contracts, particularly in industries with concentrated market power. Impact on Contracts: Antitrust laws prohibit agreements that unreasonably restrain trade, such as price-fixing, market allocation, and exclusive dealing arrangements. Contracts that violate antitrust laws are void and unenforceable, and parties involved may face penalties. Illegal Restraints of Trade: Agreements or practices that restrict competition, such as horizontal price-fixing or vertical restraints like tying arrangements, are illegal under antitrust laws. Businesses engaging in such practices risk severe legal and financial consequences. 3. Employment Contracts: Employment contracts are subject to various legal and regulatory frameworks that protect both employers and employees, addressing issues such as at-will employment, non-compete agreements, and employment discrimination. At-Will Employment: At-will employment allows either the employer or the employee to terminate the employment relationship at any time, for any reason, or for no reason, as long as it is not illegal. However, exceptions such as the public policy exception, implied contracts, and the covenant of good faith and fair dealing provide protections against wrongful termination. Non-Compete Agreements: These agreements restrict an employee's ability to work for a competitor or start a competing business after leaving their current employer. To be enforceable, non-compete agreements must be reasonable in scope, duration, and geographic area and must protect a legitimate business interest. Employment Discrimination: Employment discrimination laws, including Title VII, the ADEA, and the ADA, prohibit discrimination based on protected characteristics and require employers to provide equal treatment in hiring, promotions, and other employment practices. Non-compliance can result in legal action, damages, and other penalties. --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/law-school/support

Chapter 10: Governmental and Regulatory Impact on Contracts explores the critical role that government and regulatory frameworks play in shaping contractual relationships. From consumer protection laws that safeguard consumers from unfair practices to antitrust laws that promote fair competition and employment laws that protect employees from discrimination, these regulations have a profound impact on how contracts are formed, enforced, and interpreted. Summary of Chapter 10: Governmental and Regulatory Impact on Contracts. Chapter 10 explores the significant influence of governmental and regulatory frameworks on employment contracts, focusing on consumer protection laws, antitrust laws, and employment contracts. The chapter examines how these laws shape the contractual relationships between employers and employees, ensuring fairness, transparency, and compliance with legal standards. 1. Consumer Protection Laws: Consumer protection laws are designed to safeguard consumers in the marketplace by imposing requirements on businesses to prevent unfair, deceptive, or fraudulent practices. Unfair and Deceptive Acts and Practices (UDAP): These laws prohibit businesses from engaging in practices that are likely to mislead or deceive consumers. Contracts that include unfair or deceptive terms may be voided, and businesses may face penalties. Truth in Lending Act (TILA): TILA requires lenders to provide clear and accurate disclosures of credit terms, ensuring that consumers understand the costs and conditions of their credit agreements. Non-compliance can result in rescission of the contract and penalties for lenders. 2. Antitrust Laws: Antitrust laws promote fair competition and prevent monopolistic practices that can harm consumers and the economy. These laws have a significant impact on contracts, particularly in industries with concentrated market power. Impact on Contracts: Antitrust laws prohibit agreements that unreasonably restrain trade, such as price-fixing, market allocation, and exclusive dealing arrangements. Contracts that violate antitrust laws are void and unenforceable, and parties involved may face penalties. Illegal Restraints of Trade: Agreements or practices that restrict competition, such as horizontal price-fixing or vertical restraints like tying arrangements, are illegal under antitrust laws. Businesses engaging in such practices risk severe legal and financial consequences. 3. Employment Contracts: Employment contracts are subject to various legal and regulatory frameworks that protect both employers and employees, addressing issues such as at-will employment, non-compete agreements, and employment discrimination. At-Will Employment: At-will employment allows either the employer or the employee to terminate the employment relationship at any time, for any reason, or for no reason, as long as it is not illegal. However, exceptions such as the public policy exception, implied contracts, and the covenant of good faith and fair dealing provide protections against wrongful termination. Non-Compete Agreements: These agreements restrict an employee's ability to work for a competitor or start a competing business after leaving their current employer. To be enforceable, non-compete agreements must be reasonable in scope, duration, and geographic area and must protect a legitimate business interest. Employment Discrimination: Employment discrimination laws, including Title VII, the ADEA, and the ADA, prohibit discrimination based on protected characteristics and require employers to provide equal treatment in hiring, promotions, and other employment practices. Non-compliance can result in legal action, damages, and other penalties. --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/law-school/support

Welcome to the 160th episode of the Tooth or Dare Podcast with Irene Iancu (@toothlife.irene) and this week's guest Dr. Jason Luchtefeld (@jasonluchtefeld), along with bonus guest Dr. Alan Mead (@very_dental_podcast).  In Part 2 of this conversation with Dr. Luchtefeld, we learn about how he came to be President of the American Equilibration Society (AES), a leading organization of dental professionals that has been around since 1955. Perks of membership include access to scientific meetings, lecture video archives and other continuing education.  Watch until the end for a bonus impromptu conversation with Dr. Alan Mead, a fellow podcast host and longtime friend of Dr. Luchtefeld since the early days of Dentaltown's online community. Find out what some denture patients eat WITHOUT their dentures, and how to tell if something should go on your feed VS stories… Dr. Jason Luchtefeld, DMD A 2000 graduate of Southern Illinois University School of Dental Medicine, he was an active leader in the ASDA, AADS (now ADEA) and the AGD.  Following dental school, he completed a General Practice Residency at the VA Hospital in Denver, CO.  His technical training has encompassed learning from the Dawson Academy, the Misch Institute, R.L. Frazer & Associates and many other respected learning organizations.  In 2005 Dr. Luchtefeld obtained his Fellowship in the AGD (Academy of General Dentistry ) and the ICOI (International College of Oral Implantologists).  In 2007 he joined the AES – Occlusion, TMD, Comprehensive Care (formerly American Equilibration Society) and quickly rose to leadership.  He first served three years as AES Exhibit Committee Chair and a member of the Strategic Planning Committee (SPC).  After a year on the SPC he Co-Chaired the most successful and transformative AES Strategic Planning Process in more than 55 years.  During the Applied Strategic Planning process (led by Dr. Bob Frazer) a passion was ignited for the power of the process.  This passion has continued in Jason overseeing implementation and ongoing monitoring of the AES ASP – allowing the ASP to become the central governing document for the society.   In 2019, Jason began expressing his passion and purpose for asking questions into the formal process of Applied Strategic Planning as a partner in Inspero – a strategic planning and coaching firm based in Austin, TX.  His goal is to help dentists and their organizations question, create, and then inspire their best futures.  Jason's experience in this arena has rapidly grown to include co-facilitating several ASP's for dentist's and a corporation as well as leading the process for several dental organizations.  He has also led the Organizational Health Process through multiple iterations. In 2024, Jason joined forces with Dr. Kevin Kwiecien to form The CCO Solution to provide fractional chief clinical officer functions to growing DSO's.  For more information and to connect with Dr. Luchtefeld, check out his social media profiles: Instagram: @jasonluchtefeld Facebook: jason.luchtefeld American Equilibration Society Website: www.aes-tmj.org   This episode of the Tooth or Dare podcast is sponsored by Philips Sonicare. Their innovative products, including electric toothbrushes with 62,000 brush movements per minute, help dental professionals meet diverse patient needs, from teeth whitening to gum health. For more information, visit the Philips website at https://www.philips.ca/.    If you made it all the way down here, hit a like and share a comment. Until next time, Peace out peeps! ✌️ _______________________________________  

Welcome to the 159th episode of the Tooth or Dare Podcast with Irene Iancu (@toothlife.irene) and this week's guest Dr. Jason Luchtefeld (@jasonluchtefeld).  If you think taking over a dental practice is easier than starting one from scratch, think again. Dr. Luchtefeld discovered early on in his career that when you buy an old practice, you inherit its problems. How do you fix an outdated, neglected dental office? Tune in to find out how Dr. Luchtefeld turned it around, and went on to practice in several different states before moving from the US to settle in Canada, transitioning out of clinical work into coaching dental professionals.  Dr. Jason Luchtefeld, DMD A 2000 graduate of Southern Illinois University School of Dental Medicine, he was an active leader in the ASDA, AADS (now ADEA) and the AGD.  Following dental school, he completed a General Practice Residency at the VA Hospital in Denver, CO.  His technical training has encompassed learning from the Dawson Academy, the Misch Institute, R.L. Frazer & Associates and many other respected learning organizations.  In 2005 Dr. Luchtefeld obtained his Fellowship in the AGD (Academy of General Dentistry ) and the ICOI (International College of Oral Implantologists).  In 2007 he joined the AES – Occlusion, TMD, Comprehensive Care (formerly American Equilibration Society) and quickly rose to leadership.  He first served three years as AES Exhibit Committee Chair and a member of the Strategic Planning Committee (SPC).  After a year on the SPC he Co-Chaired the most successful and transformative AES Strategic Planning Process in more than 55 years.  During the Applied Strategic Planning process (led by Dr. Bob Frazer) a passion was ignited for the power of the process.  This passion has continued in Jason overseeing implementation and ongoing monitoring of the AES ASP – allowing the ASP to become the central governing document for the society.   In 2019, Jason began expressing his passion and purpose for asking questions into the formal process of Applied Strategic Planning as a partner in Inspero – a strategic planning and coaching firm based in Austin, TX.  His goal is to help dentists and their organizations question, create, and then inspire their best futures.  Jason's experience in this arena has rapidly grown to include co-facilitating several ASP's for dentist's and a corporation as well as leading the process for several dental organizations.  He has also led the Organizational Health Process through multiple iterations. In 2024, Jason joined forces with Dr. Kevin Kwiecien to form The CCO Solution to provide fractional chief clinical officer functions to growing DSO's.  For more information and to connect with Dr. Luchtefeld, check out his social media profiles: Instagram: @jasonluchtefeld Facebook: jason.luchtefeld  If you made it all the way down here, hit a like and share a comment. Until next time, Peace out peeps! ✌️ _______________________________________  

In this episode, we're excited to guide you through the journey of transitioning from an international dentist to applying for residency in the U.S. using the PASS website. Good news - PASS is now open for applications! Not sure about the steps involved? No worries! We've packed this video with heaps of helpful tips that are useful no matter where you are in the application process. We cover everything you need to know, detail by detail, including common pitfalls to avoid. Whether you're just starting out or still deciding if moving to the U.S. is the right step for you, this episode is your go-to resource for all the essential information to help you make a well-informed decision.

You may or may not be aware of ARC. This is an organization that for many years has championed the lives, rights and welfare of persons with Intellectual and developmental disabilities. One of the main funding sources for ARC is its thrift stores. Not only do these stores provide a revenue source, but they also provide employment for many persons with all kinds of disabilities.   Our guest, Lloyd Lewis is the CEO of the ARC Colorado Thrift Stores. For the past 18 years he has grown the Colorado network from approximately $2 million to a large operation employing several hundred persons and greatly helping to financially support the activities of ARC.   My conversation with Lloyd is far ranging and quite informative. We talk a lot about the broad subjects of disabilities including the myths and fears promulgated within society. Lloyd offers some keen observations on how we can and should work to make society more inclusive. Lloyd's education and earlier business and legal background afford him a unique and strong skill set for the job he does today. I think you will find our conversation well worth your time.     About the Guest:   Lloyd Lewis is the CEO of the Arc Thrift Stores of Colorado, one of Colorado's largest nonprofits, employers of persons with intellectual and developmental disabilities, and relief organizations. Under Lewis' tenure, Arc Thrift has funded over $250 million to nonprofit causes and charities since 2005.   Lewis is a passionate champion on a crusade to promote a new way to think about inclusion and diversity.   Lewis the recipient of a Civil Rights Award and received the World Citizenship Award from the International Civitans, an honor that has included such noted past winners as England's Prime Minister Winston Churchill and Eunice Shriver, the founder of Special Olympics.   Lewis sits on the board of The Arc of the United States Foundation and is treasurer of Inclusion International, a worldwide organization advocating for people with intellectual and developmental disabilities, with members in over 100 countries.   Lewis has a 19-year-old son with Down syndrome.   He is the author of Why Not Them? a book about how his life was transformed by the birth of his son. In it, Lewis hopes to change the way our communities think about, connect with, and employee people with disabilities.   Why Not Them? is about a purpose-driven organization, arc Thrift Stores, whose mission is the success and inclusion of all of its employees, regardless of their abilities. It's about opening doors, challenging the way we do business, and touching hearts and minds.   Written from the perspective of a father and a businessman, it asks us all to join in the fight for inclusion and understanding. It is educational and moving and challenges us – as individuals and as a community – to perhaps look at the world just a little bit differently. ** ** Ways to connect with Dr.Jonathan :    https://lloydlewis.net/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lewislloyd/     About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app.   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.     Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Well, hi, everyone, and welcome to another edition of unstoppable mindset where inclusion and diversity in the unexpected meet. And we get to talk today about inclusion and diversity. And if we're not, we may hit the unexpected as well, which is anything except inclusion and diversity. But our guest today is Lloyd Lewis, who is the CEO of the ark, Colorado thrift stores. And we're going to talk about ark and the thrift stores and everything else under the sun and why he's doing it and all that. So I'm not going to talk much, because that's his job. So Lloyd, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're here, Michael.   Lloyd Lewis ** 02:00 It's great to be with you. And I really appreciate our opportunity to get to know each other and have a conversation. Looking   Michael Hingson ** 02:06 forward to it. Now we're in Colorado, are you?   Lloyd Lewis ** 02:10 We're actually I have stores across Colorado, from Fort Collins in the North Pole in the south across what we call our front range. And also on our western slope. My company is headquartered in Lakewood, Colorado, which is just a little bit southeast of Denver. Okay, we are all across the state. I   Michael Hingson ** 02:31 get to be in Littleton in May for the board meeting of the Colorado Center for the Blind and Littleton.   Lloyd Lewis ** 02:37 Oh, nice. Very cool. Yeah, Littleton is isn't as the city very near to us where we have a store and a very successful operation. And it's a wonderful city. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 02:49 I'm going to have to make sure that when we're going to be there that maybe we can at least meet in person. That   Lloyd Lewis ** 02:58 would be great. Please let me know when you're here.   Michael Hingson ** 03:01 I will. I don't remember the date. But I think it's around the ninth of may. But I'll let you know.   Lloyd Lewis ** 03:06 Maybe we could meet at my warehouse. We have a lot of wonderful blind call center agents there with adapted software. They do an amazing job for us. And I think they would appreciate getting an opportunity to meet you and and get to know you a little bit.   Michael Hingson ** 03:22 I may just stay an extra day or come in a day early to do that.   Lloyd Lewis ** 03:26 That'd be very cool. Very well. In any case, why   Michael Hingson ** 03:29 don't we start with you if you would tell us maybe about kind of the early Lloyd growing up and all that. Yeah, the   Lloyd Lewis ** 03:36 early Lloyd grew up in Tacoma, Washington. And I have a lot of family there. And the early Lloyd moved around a bit. California bit Bakersfield, high point North Carolina and Oklahoma City. And I had a stepfather who was doing transfers as a FAA controller. And I grew up, you know, doing well in school and playing sports. And really appreciate where I grew up, where we can see Mount Rainier from my backyard. And we had covered playgrounds because it rained all the time. Not like the kind of rain you're getting now. But it rained a lot in Washington and I actually like rain if it's the appropriate level. Not the LA rain you got right now but I've always found it refreshing. You had some snow this year. We've had a lot of snow this year. And we had that this past weekend. We were expecting a couple inches we got eight or nine inches. And we're having better weather right now as we're speaking. But this weekend, we could get even more so it's you know, I just wish we weren't getting so much of this because it interferes with my stores. If the roads aren't drivable people aren't likely to be out On the road, visiting my stores. So hopefully it'll be milder than what they're predicting right now.   Michael Hingson ** 05:08 Just for a point of reference, we're recording this on February 6 2024. So that's why we're talking about rain and snow and everything else. And typically, a lot of the weather that starts out in California does go East and elsewhere. So it's probably going to be a follow up to the storm that we have here that that you get. But it's a very slow moving storm. And that's why it's been so crazy out here, because we've had so much rain since it's just stayed over us and dumped a lot of moisture.   Lloyd Lewis ** 05:40 We see it on the news media, and it's very, you know, concerning. It's a lot of damage there. And power outages. And, you know, we in Colorado, we are, you know, sorry, this is the experience that you are having. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 05:56 well, and we will we will deal with it, which is cool. But at least we can and the cities and the government is doing their best to try to keep up with it all.   Lloyd Lewis ** 06:06 Well, I hope they can.   Michael Hingson ** 06:07 I hope. So. You did you go to college in in Colorado, or   Lloyd Lewis ** 06:13 I did not I ended up going to undergrad at the University of Oklahoma, in Norman, Oklahoma, and got a degree in political science.   Michael Hingson ** 06:23 Now, why did you go there as opposed to sign close? And I was   Lloyd Lewis ** 06:27 I was in high school at the time there. My stepfather had transferred Oklahoma City because he was teaching at the FAA Academy which is located. Yes. And then when it came time to do my undergrad. I had some counselors who thought I should attend an IV instead, I followed my friends to Norman, Oklahoma. And that was my undergraduate education.   Michael Hingson ** 06:53 Then what did you do? Then   Lloyd Lewis ** 06:55 I followed a girlfriend out to Massachusetts. From there, I did a paralegal training program in Atlanta, then hired at the Tennessee Valley Authority in Knoxville, where I spent a few years as a paralegal and applying for a paralegal job with an investment firm in Philadelphia, because I'd never been in the big city in the Northeast. And I ended up prior to grad school, being a municipal investment banker working on municipal financing projects, ultimately with Smith Barney, which Wow, fairly prominent firm at the time. Yes.   Michael Hingson ** 07:33 Did girlfriend follow you around or?   Lloyd Lewis ** 07:36 No, she that didn't work. He did her own thing. She actually she's done quite well. She went to do a PhD at Princeton and English, and became a professor at the University of Mississippi in a very successful career.   Michael Hingson ** 07:51 That's great. So did you ever find another girlfriend that took?   Lloyd Lewis ** 07:57 I did? Oh, good. Okay, I found a few. And then from Philadelphia, we thought the 1986 tax bill would disrupt our industry. So I took the Graduate Management Admission Test the GMAT application test for business school, I got admitted to Duke to Michigan to some other schools and Oh, my word and versity of Chicago. Which is, you know, considered, I guess, the best business school in America, per US News rankings. And I did an MBA graduate in 88, with a specialty in finance. It came out to Colorado in Boulder with IBM, as a senior financial analyst in their executive training program, and from there did a series of companies. I was director of finance for publicly traded medical equipment company. I was a CFO for high tech ultimately sold to micron. And then in 2003, my world changed. I had a little boy born with Down syndrome, whose name   Michael Hingson ** 09:07 I'm sorry, his name again. Kennedy.   Lloyd Lewis ** 09:11 Okay, and I got involved in scientific research advocacy. I met a neuroscientist at the University of Colorado working in that arena. And we partnered up and advocated at CU University Colorado across the country to try to get more funding for Down syndrome research at the time. It really didn't receive much funding and met a philanthropist daughter, whose father had founded stars encore she has a little girl my son's age with Down syndrome. We partnered up and ultimately that family created what's now the largest world's largest Down Syndrome research facility. The Linda cernik Institute named for the neuroscientist that I met and worked with initially on advocacy. My whole world changed with the birth of my son candidate What?   Michael Hingson ** 10:00 What caused you to really decide to make that change and go away from being a financial analyst and being very successful in the corporate world to clearly something else, just just because of his birth? Or did things happen that changed your life or when   Lloyd Lewis ** 10:17 he was born? You know, a lot of parents if they have a child with Down syndrome, you know, surprise them at birth, they might get anxious or depressed or angry or concerned. For whatever reason, none of that occurred to me, I just thought he was great would always be great. And I immediately thought about trying to help Kennedy, because people with Down Syndrome and intellectual disabilities have a lot of challenges and obstacles. So I went to a personal development seminar. I announced my goal in life was to raise $25 million in Down Syndrome research and Everyone applauded. And when I got down from the podium with that, holy smokes, I don't have money, I don't know anybody with money. And ultimately, the philanthropist daughter that I met, that family created the world's largest Down Syndrome Research Institute gifted with 32 million from that family believer in pointing the bat to centerfield, and, you know, shooting for the moon during the moon shot. And a few years later, unfortunately, the neuroscientist who was my friend and partner passed away from an aneurysm I took was my best friend at the time, I took a hiatus from Down Syndrome research, and was recruited to our by a friend that I had at IBM, and I joined arc, Mio five as CFO. Why? Well, I thought I could take my business skills and help create funding programs that would help people like my son.   Michael Hingson ** 11:56 So tell me more about Ark. So where it came from, what it is, and so on, if you would. Ark   Lloyd Lewis ** 12:03 thrift stores was created in 1968. To find Ark advocate chapters, who helped people with intellectual disabilities by jobs, housing, medical services, services and schools, affiliated with the Ark United States, the ark in the United States was the first parent organization during the 1940s, to advocate for humane treatment in large institutions where people like my son were being abused. And had my son been born in the 1940s. We would have been told, send him to Tunis, and forget about him, he won't walk or talk, tell people he died, don't tell people about him. But the Ark United States set about trying to create more humane conditions in these large institutions followed by deinstitutionalization advocacy, mainstreaming inclusion, public education, people like my son now live with their families, they participate in their communities. And the arcade United States with chapters all across the country, one of the top 10 charities in America does direct services and advocacy all across the United States, including advocacy in DC, with Congress and people, you know, important departments of the US government. So the art chapters of Colorado, all across Colorado, 15 art chapters, work with 1000s and 1000s of families and kids and adults. And again, try to help them achieve goals that, you know, a lot of us take for granted. How to find this job, how to find a place to live, you know, how to get your medical needs cared for, you know, how to be treated with respect in schools. And in our world, as as much progress has been made. You know, just through inclusion, people like my son have gained, on average 20 IQ points going from severe to mild impairment, moderate impairment to moderate to mild impairment. But still, there are tremendous challenges. 80% of people with intellectual dis 80% of women with intellectual disabilities will be abused. 40% multiple times 40% of men. There's an 80% unemployment rate for people with intellectual disabilities, the highest in the country. There's extreme shortage of housing and supports, there's a higher need for medical care. schools still have segregated classrooms for people with intellectual disabilities. So a lot of progress has been made, but there's a lot of progress yet to be made that the arcs are working.   Michael Hingson ** 14:54 Now is arc today an acronym for something. Now   Lloyd Lewis ** 14:57 it's no longer an acronym. Back in a Yeah, the word retarded, which is never used was actually an improvement over previous descriptions like Mongoloid ism, etc. It's no longer acceptable, right? It's just our it is just art today legally things are name as did the United States as have all the art chapters across the country, which   Michael Hingson ** 15:19 is, which is great and which makes perfect sense. And I kind of always wondered that whether and I sort of thought that that was the case. Well, my experience of being blind going back to when I was born in 1950, doctors told my parents the same thing, send him off to a home because no blind child can ever grow up to be a contributor to society. And he's just going to be a drain on your family. And that was the the tent the tone and the trend at the time, it was even worse than the other countries where they would just dispose of kids with disabilities when they were born.   Lloyd Lewis ** 15:57 Right, you know, we have many blind friends in Colorado, and they've all had similar experiences growing up, and challenges and obstacles. And, and, you know, our deep belief is that people with all disabilities, whether it's mental health, blindness, intellectual disabilities, physical disabilities, should be treated equally and afforded the same opportunities through education or employment as anyone else in society. And that's what we endeavored to do.   Michael Hingson ** 16:31 Being a little bit of a rabble rouser and troublemaker, of course, my position is, every person in society has a disability. And for most all of you, it's the fact that you're like, dependent. And if the lights go out, and you don't, well, if the lights go out, and you don't have a smartphone, or a flashlight nearby, you're in a world of trouble. Yeah,   Lloyd Lewis ** 16:51 I mean, everyone has issues of some type, whether it's, they have, you know, physical, physical issues, or, you know, they have hearing issues, or issues related to aging, or mental health. Or for some people, it's alcohol, some people, it's drugs, sure,   Michael Hingson ** 17:14 but I really, but I really do seriously choose to believe that life dependence is a disability, the only thing is that Thomas Edison invented the light bulb, and now light on demand has become so ubiquitous, that your disability is covered up, but it doesn't change the fact that it is one of the things that most people have to contend with in some way or another. Well,   Lloyd Lewis ** 17:36 you know, thank you for sharing that, you know, and you are absolutely correct if to do anything in our household, before we go to sleep depended on light. And without light. And without vision, I would be completely immobilized.   Michael Hingson ** 17:57 So and and the reality is, of course, you don't have to be but that's the way we're, we mostly are brought up. And the result is that we keep talking about blind people as being visually impaired, which is so wrong on so many levels, because visually, we're not now we look, we don't look different, simply because we're blind, necessarily. And impaired, is what some of the professionals in the field have made it but impaired or not. And it's it's really wrong for people to ever accuse anyone who has a so called traditional disability, physical or intellectual, of being impaired, because that means you're really just comparing us to someone else. And that's so unfortunate.   Lloyd Lewis ** 18:45 Well, thank you for sharing that. That's, that's very profound. And that's very meaningful and impactful. So thank you for sharing that. But   Michael Hingson ** 18:54 it is, it is something that we, we all deal with, in one way or another, and it's just kind of the way it is. So if we, you know, in looking at a lot of all of this, what about EI and people who are dealing with intellectual disabilities and so on.   Lloyd Lewis ** 19:18 But really, I just came to this conversation, from a meeting with my dei director, who happens to be African American, and our senior staff of 10 plus individuals, talking about the importance of Dei, with respect to people who have intellectual disabilities, with respect to broadening the tent as much as possible across the company for people with various various challenges in their own lives. They might be homeless, or they might be, you know, from poor economic or backgrounds, or they might be immigrants or refugees or veterans or formerly incarcerated or black or Latino, female, or we just, you know, every, every part of our society, we like to reach out to as much as we can to offer opportunities to be involved with us. We're very diverse company, which is pervert produced our latest EDI report. And we believe that diversity makes us all stronger, that everyone's different in some way. How   Michael Hingson ** 20:41 did we get most people in society, however, to recognize that we're not including disabilities in the diversity discussion, if you talk to most experts about diversity, they'll talk to you about sexual orientation, and race and gender and so on. And they won't deal with disabilities at all physical or intellectual or developmental. I   Lloyd Lewis ** 21:07 think it's a matter of awareness. I think it's a matter of reaching out and having these discussions, I presented to a group of two or 300 CEOs last year about the importance of including people with intellectual disabilities in their dei programs. I've spoken to national organizations. I've written a book, I'm at work on a movie with a film producer. And to me, I think it's a matter of, we need to reach out, we need to bring this to people's attention. And we need to advocate for our communities. And make sure we're included in DDI programs and discussions, I mean, that the ones that people talk about are more than deserving they're really deserving. But we are no less or no more deserving than other parts of dei programs, right need to be speaking out on behalf of people with disabilities to make sure that we're included in these conversations and in these programs.   Michael Hingson ** 22:15 Well, and we need to teach and help people with disabilities speak out as well, because the reality is that we tend to be ignored. And it's it's so unfortunate, you know, we're talking this month in February, about Black History Month, and so on. In October, it will be in Disability Employment Awareness Month and Disability Awareness Month. But you won't see anywhere near the visibility and the publicity and the talk about it. Even though it's a larger minority than black history, or blacks or African Americans or any of the other minorities who get recognized at one time or another during the year.   Lloyd Lewis ** 22:55 I think it's on us, I think it's on us to really speak out. And, you know, make sure we're represented, make sure we're included, make sure we're part of these conversations. And we need to bring this to people's attention and advocate, just like other groups have that advocated. And they're no less deserving of more than us. But it's really on us, it's on you and me and, and others disability leaders and people with disabilities to make sure that we have seats at the table.   Michael Hingson ** 23:33 Yeah. And I think that, that is a lot of it. We've we've got to get Congress and the states to do more to stiffen the laws and give us more of the laws that we need to have. Even though it should be a no brainer to do so. We don't find that legislators work nearly as fast as they ought to on some of these things. For example, we're just seeing reasonable movement on a bill that would require medical devices to be accessible. We still have debates regularly in the states and even in Congress about the fact that while the Americans with Disabilities Act should cover the internet, and the Department of Justice finally said, so there's still a lot of argument about it. And the result is a lot of places say well, I don't need to really make my website accessible because the Internet didn't come until long after the the ADEA. So the ADEA can't add in any way involve the internet, which is a ridiculous argument. But yet it is what we encounter.   Lloyd Lewis ** 24:52 Well, that is a problem. And you know if we could turn out 50 to 100 people to go talk to our legislators Talk to them session after session, day after day, week after week, we will get their attention. And we will make sure that we get these kinds of issues. You know, I chair five disabilities in Colorado, one of which is a Colorado cross disability coalition representing people with all kinds of disabilities. And the leader of that organization has become very prominent as an advocate, we have a policy aide for the lieutenant governor, who is my co chair for that organization. And we are making big strides in Colorado, getting lots of good legislation, but there's still there's still advocacy to be done. And we're talking about creating a permanent disability office as part of the governor's cabinet. But it again, it's on us to go after these issues. To get the attention of the decision makers, the legislators, the corporation's to make sure that we're not ignored to make sure that we're not back to the bus.   Michael Hingson ** 26:07 Yeah, it's it is a process and there's been growth, there's been movement, but there still is so much more that that does need to be done. And we also have to be proud of our own history and, and recognize that we've made a lot of progress. But there is a lot you have to do.   Lloyd Lewis ** 26:28 I am chair of something called the Atlanta Community Foundation, which is was a sister organization of Atlanta's community Inc, which was the nation's second created Independent Living Center initially on it, or it's helping people move out of nursing homes and get independent living skills. And we manage 200 affordable apartments for people with cross disabilities. And part of the history of this organization is the formation of an organization called adapt, which you're probably familiar with, which does all kinds of advocacy, nationally, nationally has annual sins and protests. Famously, in the 1980s. A gentleman Wade Blank, would march with Dr. King was in Denver, and he was Associate Director for a nursing home where he tried to create, you know, fuller lives, more enjoyable lives are some of the residents, his reward was getting fired. When he got fired. He started suing, you know, the nursing home, getting people removed from the nursing home and creating this independent living center. And one of the more notable actions he organized was something called the gang of 1919 people in wheelchairs, went out to a Denver bus stop as the bus rolled up, they rolled in front, some roll behind another bus rolled up, they roll behind that one. And that led to the first accessible buses in the country here in Denver, that spread out across the country. But they're you know, Berkeley and Denver are two prominent centers of disability history in America.   Michael Hingson ** 28:41 A couple of years ago, I read an article that said that New York City Manhattan specifically made a commitment that they're going to make, I think it was 95%. But it may have been even higher of all subway stations accessible, which meant wheelchair accessible, and so on. And I and I know, having lived in the area and been on a lot of those subway platforms. That is a monumental task, because some of them   Michael Hingson ** 29:20 I'll be interested to see how they create the space to put an elevator in to get people down, which is not that it shouldn't be done. But it was a pretty major commitment. And I gather it's moving forward because I'm not hearing anything that saying that people aren't moving forward with it.   Lloyd Lewis ** 29:35 Well, that hopefully they fulfill that commitment. Yeah. It's again, as you say, it's very important to listen to our community. And make sure that we are included to make sure that we have accessible means to live just like everybody else. How   Michael Hingson ** 29:54 does this whole lack of in some senses regarding disabilities dei I affect the civil liberties of people with disabilities.   Lloyd Lewis ** 30:06 Well, you know, if you're discriminated against in employment, you know, that is a financial impact that is unequal and unfair in very disturbing, there's a very high rate of poverty in our community, which is, needs to be addressed. And those are things that we are working on. And people need the ability to have equal opportunities employment. Similarly, in housing, housing needs to be accessible, it needs to be affordable, needs to be available to people with disabilities, medical care, there's higher needs of medical care. Yeah, there needs to be more attention in Medicaid and other insurance programs to make sure that our community get the kind of medical care that that that they deserve, as human beings, as citizens who should be treated equally with everyone else, you shouldn't have to be rich to get medical care. Yeah, you shouldn't have to be without the disability and the way we think of disability to get appropriate medical care, similarly, in schools, there's still segregated classrooms and school. Yeah, in the world of abuse. People with disabilities, extreme experience higher rates of abuse than others, just in every aspect of society. We are we are hurting people with disabilities if they're not treated fairly and equally with equal opportunities. We   Michael Hingson ** 31:52 were talking earlier about the whole issue of becoming more involved in the conversation and what you were just talking about reminded me of something. My wife, when she was alive, was in a wheelchair her whole life, we were married for two years, and she passed in November of 2022. One of the things that she loved to do and so she got me to watching it as well was television shows like The Property Brothers on HGTV, or they call Property Brothers. Okay. And it's to get two twins, twins, who will go renovate homes for people and, and so on. And they, they do build some, but the thing about it, and there are so many shows like it, that are all involved on Home and Garden Television, with renovating homes, fixing up homes and so on. I don't even even though it would make sense to do, especially since we have an aging population, what I don't see is any of these people making a part of their vernacular or vocabulary or modus operandi, putting in appropriate things to consider the fact that somebody in the future who may get that home will have a disability. And, and so the result is we don't, you know, they don't do it. I think I saw one Property Brothers show where it was a wheelchair issue, or there was a person in a chair. But they don't do it as a matter of course, and it would make sense to do. And some architects will point out why it's sensible to do.   Lloyd Lewis ** 33:36 That's a very important point. Again, we need to be reaching out to the cable show producers, we need to be reaching out to the media, we need to be reaching out the networks, the streamers, Netflix, Amazon, we need to be reaching out to the builders, the builders associations, they can't ignore accessibility. Accessibility needs to be able to be built in everywhere, everywhere. And it's unacceptable to gloss over our community and not really listened to our requests for accessibility and inclusion is just not acceptable.   Michael Hingson ** 34:21 I suppose. And I hear what you're saying. And I don't argue with with that at all. But I do suppose on the one hand, where where should people focus most of their attention? I know in the National Federation of the Blind, for example. Well, the whole issue of access in the way we're talking about for people in chairs and other people isn't quite the issue. It really is. But at the same time, how do you decide where to focus your efforts?   Lloyd Lewis ** 34:57 Well, you know, I I'm very involved in cross disability advocacy. I'm very involved in affordable housing integrated for people with disabilities. I'm very involved in a state disability funding committee funding innovative disability projects on the ark of us Foundation Board, working in the arena, trying to assist them expand their funding capacity. I'm on an international board with members in 100 countries because as much challenge as we have in America, in some parts of the world, it's even Oh, yeah, extremely challenging, and concerning and troubling. And I'm very involved in my own company, and providing relief to our community and food, food insecure, employment opportunities to marginalized populations. And we've hired hundreds of employees with disabilities to my company. You know, where one focuses, it is really dependent on one's primary concerns. And one's bandwidth. I am fortunate to be blessed with an ability to sort of, you know, do a lot of things all at once. And so I try to do as much as I can as much as many different arenas as I can. But, you know, whatever the primary issues are for the National Federation of the Blind. If that's one's main concern, you know, go for it, you know, start reaching out to as many people as you can,   Michael Hingson ** 36:53 yeah. Well, and, and they do. But I, but I think that the, the challenge is, is for all of us so overwhelming, but it doesn't mean that we shouldn't be dealing with it. And one of the reasons that is overwhelming is that there are so many myths and so many poor attitudes and misconceptions about things like employing persons with intellectual and developmental disabilities, or any kind of a disability, you know, what are some of the kind of myths that you encounter every day? And how do you? How do you deal with some of those?   Lloyd Lewis ** 37:30 Well, in my company, it's relatively easy to deal with the myths because I'm at the top of the company. So we don't have the same kinds of barriers and challenges that employees face in other companies. We are completely accessible, we are completely responsible, responsive to the needs of people with disabilities who work for us. With other companies, you know, it becomes more difficult because there are miss that it's going to be too costly, or there's going to be too many accommodations, or they're going to be safety issues, or legal issues or what have you. My response to all of that is, you know, we have to be provide accessibility to our employees, well make accommodations for all our employees. Well, so it's no no different than making accommodation for a person with disability than it is for someone who, who needs some time away with their kids or time away with an illness. Or they need a flexible schedule, or they need some kind of medical support. We need to think about providing accessibility and accommodations for everybody, regardless of ability or disability. Well, here's   Michael Hingson ** 38:51 another example. And one of the reasons I brought it up is to get to this point. So take the average employee who doesn't supposedly have a disability, right? What does any company provide them with? We provide them and I tell me this in a facetious way, but we provide them with lights so that they can see to walk down the hall and go to the restroom, and so on. We provide them with monitors and computers, and especially the monitors so they can see what it is that they have to do on the computer. We provide them with rooms that have coffee machines, so they can get coffee and other things like that. You know, we provide so many reasonable accommodations to the average employee period, that why should it be difficult to provide specific accommodations for maybe a subgroup of those people? And the answer is, of course, it shouldn't be a problem. If I go to work for a company, I instead have a monitor because I'm not going to use a monitor, although typically, computers come with monitors, but I need a screen reader to verbalize the the information that comes across the screen. But I'll get the argument well, but we didn't budget for that. And my response is, yes, you did. You provide what it is that people need in order to be able to access the information on the computer, just because what I use is a little bit different. We, a part of the conversation needs to be that we're providing lots of accommodations for everyone already.   Lloyd Lewis ** 40:35 Yeah, I completely agree. And in my own experience, it's no more costly to provide accommodations to people with disabilities and people who supposedly don't have disabilities. And it's just there's not really an expense differential anyway. And they were even if there were, we need to treat people humanely. People opportunities, well, where are we at as a society with our morality? Yeah, if we don't help everyone who can use our support? What what does that say about our society, even   Michael Hingson ** 41:11 if there were significant differences in expenses, which we know there are not. But even if there were, the bottom line is that any company that is doing anything, can figure out ways to offset those costs. But, but the reality is, there aren't significant differences at all. We   Lloyd Lewis ** 41:32 now live in this world of artificial intelligence. We now live in this world of the cloud. We now live in this world of extreme technical advances, medical advances. There's really no excuse not to support everyone in society, and give them reasonable accommodations. There's just no excuse. And that's   Michael Hingson ** 41:57 one of the reasons is that I object to the concept of being called visually impaired, because impaired is such a negative term, when you start to say anyone is impaired compared to anyone else. Everyone has impairments of one sort or another. And the reality is that we need to get that kind of concept out of our vocabularies, and least out of our mindsets. Well, I   Lloyd Lewis ** 42:23 again, I totally agree. Yeah. They totally agree.   Michael Hingson ** 42:27 So this is probably a little redundant, but what are some of the, the myths and fears that and this gets back to the whole conversation about disabilities? And I think why we're not so much included, but what are some of the myths and fears that people typically have about all of us, and especially I think, even more so with intellectual and developmental disabilities,   Lloyd Lewis ** 42:49 safety cost, legal accommodations, but we experience No, in my company, we have 450 employees with intellectual develop developmental disabilities, 450, Down syndrome, autism, cerebral palsy, all forms of types of developmental disability, my company has never been more successful. I got the company near 37. When we were doing all of 2 million in earnings, we have had 17 of 18 record years only interrupted by the COVID. year, we're now doing 20 million. And I've hired 450 employees with developmental disabilities.   Michael Hingson ** 43:34 How old is the company today?   Lloyd Lewis ** 43:36 is 55 years old? All right, so   Michael Hingson ** 43:39 in 18 years, look what you've done. Yeah, and,   Lloyd Lewis ** 43:42 you know, I attribute a lot of that to employ people with disabilities, love to contribute, love to work in teams are very, you know, positive and inspirational to their fellow employees. And they just appreciate being able to be part of the workforce, and do what the rest of us do. And, you know, to me, I would do it in any company. If I were the head of IBM or the head of Facebook or Apple, I would do the same thing.   Michael Hingson ** 44:20 I would, I would submit that one of the advantages of hiring a person with any kind of a disability who thinks at all would tell you I'm going to be more loyal to you because I know how hard it was for me to get a job and the very fact that you gave me a job is going to want me to stay there because you made me an offer and in theory, you made me feel welcome. Why would I ever want to   Lloyd Lewis ** 44:50 leave boys with with disabilities are extremely low in the hate to miss work? We get to three feet of snow on the road and they want to come into work. I have to order them not to. Yeah, I believe all of our employees with disabilities are our blind agents or employees with intellectual disabilities or wheelchair users. They are extremely loyal, the Colorado's, and they can benefit from employment period that the Colorado   Michael Hingson ** 45:21 Center for the Blind in Littleton has actually purchased an apartment complex where all the students reside. And they have to learn independent living skills, learn how to keep up the apartments and so on. But they go every day to the Senator. So it usually means taking a bus, I think it's close enough that you can walk but not during the snow. But again, people do the same thing. They're very committed to being there to learning the skills that that need to be learned. And they do whatever is necessary to make it work out. And that's what it should be.   Lloyd Lewis ** 46:02 Yeah, again, total agreement you did acquire,   Michael Hingson ** 46:05 I would add one fear that you didn't mention. And I'll, I'll say it and then I'll fall aside a little bit. The fear is, I could become like you, I could get a disability, it could happen to me in a moment's notice. Having said that, the response is, how often when we start to deal with fear, do we just worry about things to death? That will never happen? The reality is most people won't get a dis become a person with a disability in any way. Why are you worrying about it?   Lloyd Lewis ** 46:46 Well, in the employment world, I agree with you. But as we age, more often than not, people eventually acquire some kind of disability, physical mental, cancer, Alzheimer's, you know, as we age, more or less well, true herb as well, not everybody. But I think part of it is not realizing that, you know, at, at the end of our lives, most people are dealing with issues that they didn't deal with earlier now. Sure.   Michael Hingson ** 47:25 And so they also weren't prepared for that either, which is part of what society really needs to do.   Lloyd Lewis ** 47:32 So I think people need a deeper empathy and understanding of, you know, people like my son are born with Down syndrome. And, you know, they have typically cognitive issues, resulting in IQs, less than 76. And, you know, it's not like they chose that live. It's not like, you know, they didn't do things in their life to prevent that happening. My son was born with an extra chromosome 21. But he's, he's a wonderful human being. And he deserves the same kind of opportunities, and treatment as everyone else in society,   Michael Hingson ** 48:19 will he have a job somewhere?   Lloyd Lewis ** 48:21 He, he's already working part time at one of my stores. And he's finishing his last year of high school transition. Cool. But I think people need to understand that a lot of people don't choose their so called disability. They're born with it. And people don't understand that later in life. Most people will probably have some kind of issue they deal with, and how would they like to be treated later in life? Right? What kind of respect they deserve later in life? What kind of treatment do they deserve later in life.   Michael Hingson ** 49:03 One of the wonderful things that happens at the Colorado Center, and that I've talked about before is that if you enroll there, and become a student, if you are low vision, as opposed to blind, that is totally blind. But if you have some eyesight, you will still do most of your work, your travel training and so on, under sleep shades. And you will learn to do that as a totally blind person. And the reason   Lloyd Lewis ** 49:33 pardon me but describe sleep shades for me. Sleep shades are   Michael Hingson ** 49:37 the things that some people put on at night when their lights so basically, covering your eyes or got it. Yeah, I forget the other terms that people use for them, but that's basically just so that you don't see any light. Okay? And the reason for it is many people who enroll or matriculate into the center with and have who have low vision are people who have retinitis pigmentosa or something else has occurred with them. And they will probably lose the rest of their vision. And the philosophy of the center is. This is the time for you to learn all about blindness. And really what blindness means. And by doing so, when you lose the rest of your eyesight, which is not to say you shouldn't use the ICU half, but when you lose the rest of it, which very well could happen, you'll already know what to do. And you don't have to go through a second psychological trauma, and learn things all over again, which I think is so important, because we teach people that blindness isn't the problem. And I think it's true with other disabilities as well. It's not the problem. It's our attitudes and our perceptions that are the real issue that we face.   Lloyd Lewis ** 50:56 Yeah, I very much appreciate that kind of thought process. It's,   Michael Hingson ** 51:01 it's pretty cool. One of the things that you have to do if you're going to graduate from the Senator, is you have to cook a lunch yourselves, for staff and all the students, which means you're usually cooking for between 70 and 80 people, and you get to do the whole lunch plan, the menu and everything. It's really excited on graduation day for anyone when that happens, because they've learned Linus has been gonna keep me from doing stuff.   Lloyd Lewis ** 51:32 Do you know Brenda Mosby does that name ring a bell? No. She's my co chair for the Colorado processability coalition. And she has low vision, I believe. And that's a person that is you remind me, I will email intro I think you would really enjoy me with Brenda, who has a lot of your experiences and philosophies. And I think she would be an important person for you to get connected with in Colorado.   Michael Hingson ** 51:59 Sure. And on top of everything else, we can get her on the podcast.   Lloyd Lewis ** 52:03 She would she would be great on the podcast,   Michael Hingson ** 52:08 always looking for guests. So anybody who has a person you think we I   Lloyd Lewis ** 52:13 guess be at work? Yes.   Michael Hingson ** 52:15 We're always looking. So anybody listening, if you've got a thought for a guest, we want to hear from you. But that's great. I'd love to meet her. And, and again, we're going to be in Colorado, we'll we'll work that out. I think it'll be a lot of fun to do. But I think that for the most part, we really do need to recognize that what people think about us and not necessarily the way reality really is.   Lloyd Lewis ** 52:47 Here, I mean people's misperceptions that people have intellectual disabilities as an example. If they're not connected to someone, they don't realize the full value and contribution someone like my son can make. What I'd say get to know him, and his personality, and his sense of humor. And you know, the things he enjoys? Yeah, his ability to verbal communication is a little tough for him because of some, you know, physical features. Yeah, sometimes a company down syndrome. But you can miss estimate what his real intelligence level is, because the verbal thing, but   Michael Hingson ** 53:33 I will bet he's not shy about voicing his opinion or articulating where he can.   Lloyd Lewis ** 53:37 He's not shy at all. In fact, he's kind of like the life of the party. And he loves to give speeches. And he is not embarrassed at all, to be in front of 1000s of people and get the microphone and express his opinions.   Michael Hingson ** 53:55 What's the difference between an intellectual and a developmental disability?   Lloyd Lewis ** 54:02 Well, they describe two things intellectual is around IQ and developmental as around the various stages of development, you know, crawling, walking, the typical developmental phases of early childhood.   Michael Hingson ** 54:24 What are would you say some of the best industries? I'll be interested to hear your answer to this some of the best industries that are suited to support or employ persons with intellectual and developmental disabilities.   Lloyd Lewis ** 54:37 I would say every industry there you go. That's what we tend to think of certain industries that Yeah, look, but I'm telling you, every industry can have people with IDD work in that industry and be productive contributing members every year. I don't care whether it's tech aerospace, or the military, or every single and energy, retail groceries, every single industry can have seductive employees who have IDD and productive employees who have any form of so called disability.   Michael Hingson ** 55:24 Yeah, I think that's really the right answer. Why should we be limited?   Lloyd Lewis ** 55:32 Well, we're limited due to misperception. Yeah, that's my point, he went to lack of understanding, lack of awareness, lack of connection. And it's not always particularly the fault of these industries. Because unless you have a personal connection, you may not have had the opportunity to become aware of who people really are. This is same experience African Americans had back in the day and still have today that women have had and still have today, that gays have had and still have today. That there, there's a lack of understanding of so called, you know, diverse communities, that with understanding and connection, all of that goes away. All of that goes away   Michael Hingson ** 56:16 with all of the things that are going on today in society. And I think in so many ways, we are losing the art of conversation, and so on. Do you think that's making the opportunities and the whole potential for having the conversations that we're talking about tougher?   Lloyd Lewis ** 56:40 Yeah, these kinds of conversations can be tough, because people aren't familiar with them. And these are new concepts. And one has to set aside some biases, in a lot of cases unconscious biases, that again, with personal connections and awareness and direct contact. A lot of this stuff goes away. Yeah, you get to know who they are, she   Michael Hingson ** 57:03 got to know. Yeah. You discovered for   Lloyd Lewis ** 57:08 literally being in a room with somebody, or on the phone with somebody and getting to know,   Michael Hingson ** 57:12 you discovered that what you thought isn't really the way it is.   Lloyd Lewis ** 57:16 That is correct. That's absolutely correct. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 57:19 I want to thank you for being here with us and taking the time to chat with us about art about disabilities in general. Of course, needless to say, it's a topic that's near and dear to my heart. If people want to reach out to you and and talk with you more or or learn more about our How do they do that?   Lloyd Lewis ** 57:42 They can email me a Lewis l e w i s at ARC thrift.com, A R C thrift.com. On my cell phone 720-206-7047 Just say you heard this on this program. There   Michael Hingson ** 57:55 you go. Well, I hope people will do it, I hope people will reach out and the people will be more now stimulated and more knowledgeable about disabilities than they were before they came. I think that it's extremely important, and that they will help promote the conversation. And we'll have to work on getting the Property Brothers to come on to unstoppable mindset. These days. I think that'll be fun as less contact those guys. Yeah, Jonathan and drew Scott.   Lloyd Lewis ** 58:26 Wonderful conversation, really enjoyed getting to know you and have this conversation. And I think I learned a hell of a lot more from you than you learn from me.   Michael Hingson ** 58:35 Ah, not sure about that. I always love to   Lloyd Lewis ** 58:38 add a lot of wisdom in what you said.   Michael Hingson ** 58:41 Well, thank you. I appreciate it. I think we both learned a lot, which is the way it should be. I feel that if I'm not learning on these podcasts, and I'm not doing a good job, and I always find ways to learn so   Lloyd Lewis ** 58:52 this podcast is gonna be one of my favorite podcasts, you   58:55 will definitely get it. Well thank you and I want to thank you all for being here and listening to us. Love to hear your thoughts. Please feel free to email me at Michaelhi M I C H A E L H I at accessiBe A c c e s s i b e.com. Or go to our podcast page at WWW dot Michael hingson.com/podcast. Michael Hingson is m i c h a e l h i n g s o n.com. And I should have said and will now say that we met Lloyd through Sheldon Lewis at accessiBe you know, Sheldon.   Lloyd Lewis ** 59:29 Well, thank you. Thank you so much, Michael. I very much enjoyed this.   Michael Hingson ** 59:32 Well, thank you for being here. We really appreciate it. And let's do it again.   Lloyd Lewis ** 59:38 Please do it again. More to learn. Let's do it again.   Michael Hingson ** 59:45 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

Transcription Notes “Upili program”? Yes and it isn't even a misspelling. Our guest, Carla Birnberg will tell us all about Upili, where it comes from and what it is. Carla started life in Pittsburg, but nearly thirty years ago she ended up in Austin, TX. Prior to Austin she worked in North Carolina where she owned her own personal trainer business. She sold that company when she moved to Austin which was due to marriage. Carla has always been quite the storyteller. Her Bachelors degree was in English Literature, but her mom convinced her to go to graduate school where she earned a Master's degree in Educational Counseling. After her move to Austin she became a successful blogger and internet writer for a number of major brands. Four years ago she, as she would say, pivoted to working with the Next Step Foundation to help persons with disabilities in East Africa. We have quite the informative and interesting conversations about disabilities and how they are viewed in Kenya as opposed to the United States. Carla makes a strong case for why in reality the treatment of persons with disabilities between the two countries is not too different although in Kenya possibly the treatment of people with disabilities there is more visibly negative. Carla does say overall the views of us are pretty similar. While you may hear some things discussed that have come up in other episodes of Unstoppable Mindset I think you will discover in Carla a person with a wealth of knowledge. Among other things, she describes how in Kenya where the Upili program is used, counselors with disabilities are brough into schools and organizations so the people there see good models to enrich and inspire them. This was a fun and wonderful conversation. I hope you enjoy it. About the Guest: Carla has dedicated her professional journey to cultivating connections, whether between individuals, places, or concepts. As a passionate advocate for amplifying the voices of marginalized communities, she most recently wove together her gift for ethical storytelling, her passion for uplifting others, and her academic experience/Master's degree in Educational Counseling to create the Upili program. Upili, Kiswahili for secondary as in secondary schools, engages Counselors with Disabilities to provide group therapy for Students with Disabilities in Kenyan “special schools.” (In Kenya, Students with Disabilities are educated at “special schools” according to their disability, e.g., schools for the blind, schools for the deaf, etc.) Youth with Disabilities are 10 times more likely to suffer from depression, especially in East Africa where stigmatization, marginalization and discrimination are still prevalent. The lack of early intervention of essential psychosocial support creates additional barriers that keep Persons with Disabilities from being able to obtain and maintain meaningful employment. Next Step Foundation's Upili Program addresses this pervasive mental health challenge by providing support for secondary school Students with Disabilities, their families, and communities. By meeting the psychosocial needs of students, training teachers, staff and peers to serve as “psychological first responders,” and offering support to parents and caregivers the Upili Program instills self-confidence, improves academic performance and provides the tools to successfully navigate future discrimination so that Youth with Disabilities can achieve economic independence. In her recent role as the Chief Culture and Inclusion Officer at Stepwise Inc., Carla played a pivotal role in advancing impact sourcing initiatives. Stepwise, a frontrunner in the impact sourcing movement and the first B Corp certified company in East Africa, benefited from Carla's leadership in leveraging AI technology to empower marginalized groups, particularly individuals with disabilities and young women, enabling their full participation in the digital economy. Driven by a commitment to fostering a positive organizational culture, Carla has created initiatives aimed at enhancing employee retention amidst Stepwise's rapid growth. Her innovative approaches, including "stay interviews," upskilling opportunities, and mentorship programs, have infused the company's core values into daily operations, cultivating a workplace where employees are not only motivated to come to work but also eager to remain with the organization, even across vast distances. As a collaborative leader Carla has developed and implemented comprehensive training and support programs for cultural integration within organizations undergoing expansion through acquisitions. Her approach, which includes individual and group coaching as well as fostering cultural sensitivity, has proven instrumental in navigating organizational transitions. Carla's earlier career in marketing showcased her aptitude for connecting communities, influencers, and brands. With a track record of success in developing innovative branding and marketing campaigns, she has left an indelible mark on the industry. Her pioneering use of omni-channel media, blending lifestyle with product placement alongside esteemed personalities and leading brands such as Venus Williams, FILA, and Walt Disney World, made her a trailblazer in the realm we now simply refer to as 'influencers. Ways to connect with Carla: Next Step Foundation website https://nextstepfdn.org/ Upili Program website https://www.upili.org/ Upil Instagram https://www.instagram.com/upili_program? Upili Twitter https://twitter.com/upiliprogram? Carla Birnberg Substack https://carlabirnberg.substack.com/ About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app. Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Well, hello, and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. Our guest today, my partner in conversation that is Carla Birnberg. Carla has a really interesting story to tell. She lives in Austin. And I don't know where else in the US she's live. But we'll find out because we'll drill down and, and get it out of her. But she spends her waking hours thinking of and assisting people, especially children with disabilities in Kenya, and helping them to become more accepted, which makes a lot of sense. And of course, needless to say, that's near and dear to my heart. And we will we will get to all that as we go through our discussions. But for now, Carla, I want to welcome you into unstoppable mindset. And thank you very much for being here. Thank   Carla Birnberg ** 02:14 you so much for having me. I know it took a beat for us to get the date together. And I'm so glad to be here.   Michael Hingson ** 02:21 Well, we made it happen, which is really good. There you go. Tell us about the early Carla growing up and stuff like that.   Carla Birnberg ** 02:29 The early Carla   Michael Hingson ** 02:31 Yeah, gotta hear about the early Carla.   Carla Birnberg ** 02:34 I laughed because I've been thinking a lot. You know, that question that career counselors and coaches ask you What did you dream of being when you were little? And I don't know. This will date me that book Harriet the Spy. You're a man you might not be familiar with more of The Girl type read. But Harriet walked around her neighborhood pretending she was a spy with a notebook writing everything down. And I kind of think that my current career as chief storyteller, I've achieved it. And there were some deviations along the way. But my whole life that's really been it, listening to stories and amplifying what other people are doing.   Michael Hingson ** 03:15 Carla the spy no doubt about it.   Carla Birnberg ** 03:17 I know maybe they can make it into a movie.   Michael Hingson ** 03:20 Well, why not? Now who played Harriet? I'm trying to remember was it?   03:27 I can't remember her. Donal, I think she was. I think it was Rosie O'Donnell.   Carla Birnberg ** 03:32 I think you're right. I'd forgotten. I don't know where   Michael Hingson ** 03:34 she was Harriet, or she was the mother but she was in there with the mom   Carla Birnberg ** 03:38 she was. And that was I mean, I can really remember walking down my street. It's a kid with that notebook and the pencil. And I hadn't thought until right now. So thank you about how far I've come and how not far.   Michael Hingson ** 03:54 So now no pencils, keyboards. I   Carla Birnberg ** 03:57 know keyboards, voice notes and our phone all of it.   Michael Hingson ** 04:01 So you, you absorb stories and all that and tell me a little bit more about you and growing up and all that.   Carla Birnberg ** 04:10 I was pretty theatrical. I did a lot of television work when I was younger. And I thought for about three minutes that I wanted to be on air talent and I interned at our CBS affiliate and then I quickly realized that wasn't my gift. Again, it goes back to I didn't want to be on the screen like you. I wanted to be more behind the scenes writing the stories ended up in college for English English literature, small liberal arts school in Ohio where there was not much else to do but read. And I kind of stayed on this books and storytelling and marketing path my whole life.   Michael Hingson ** 04:51 Now, where are you from? Originally?   Carla Birnberg ** 04:55 Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Shout out to the Steelers. Yes, I'm a Pittsburgh girl at heart, even though I've not lived there and maybe 30 years.   Michael Hingson ** 05:04 Oh, that's okay. There are people in New York who say the Dodgers will someday move back to Brooklyn and stinky white. Sure that's going to happen. Of course now with Shohei Otani, I don't think they can afford to move back to Brooklyn. So that's another story. But yeah, but you never know. It isn't gonna happen. They're gonna stay out here. But anyway, that's cool. So you, you, you love to be creative. I interviewed. Well, I keep saying that I shouldn't. I had a conversation with a gentleman yesterday. And his name is Wolf born, he changed his name to wolf born, his middle name was born. In honor of his father, Max Born who was a very famous physicist. He had the name of wolf. He was a nickname, his original name was Randall, Born ready for this? Newton John. He's, he's in Australia. So who do you think so? Who do you think his aunt was?   Carla Birnberg ** 06:11 Olivia? This thing now, I loved Olivia Newton John's talk   Michael Hingson ** 06:17 about a guy who comes from a really creative family. And he, he's, he's, he calls himself a corporate shaman, because he really wants to help organizations and people, people especially move closer to nature and understand that nature has a lot to it can do to guide us and teach us and, and so he really is heavily involved in that. But that   Carla Birnberg ** 06:43 is fascinating. And I'm, I'm with him in terms of, I'm not myself, this is why I don't move back to Pennsylvania. Because of the cold. I need to be immersed in nature every day, preferably barefoot in the grass. It helps me ground myself, so I can show up for other people. He   Michael Hingson ** 07:02 would say, though, that there is time to deal with cold as well, because we we race around so much that we're we way too hot. And so the result is that we don't really deal with nature. We don't tune into nature, which goes in cycles. And we ought to do more of that.   Carla Birnberg ** 07:20 Oh, I'm such a believer. And I just kind of emerged from wintering with Michael, I thought I invented but clearly I did not. When we fall back to we spring forward, I really tried to get still and plan for what's coming next both at work and personally.   Michael Hingson ** 07:41 Yeah, well, I, I learned a long time ago that I'm not going to worry about spring ahead and falling back. Frankly, what I do is go to bed an hour earlier when it is spring. And that way, I come right out adjusted to the time anyway. And as far as falling back, I won't stay up an hour later. I like to get the extra hour asleep. So I'm good. And   Carla Birnberg ** 08:11 you know, that is I think the Kenyan my team. That's the biggest that's the most challenging time of year when we fall back. I'm further so when I'm it's 8am. For me, they're done. It's 5pm for them. I like when we spring forward, because I get that extra hour where they're in the office, they have to adjust a lot to my USA schedule.   Michael Hingson ** 08:34 Yeah, well, I do a lot of work, of course, with excessive B. And the thing about excessive B is that they just switched yesterday night, I guess to daylight saving time. Oh. So they've so it's been a challenge because some of the scheduling hasn't always been coordinated very well. Microsoft hasn't really done some of the things that it was supposed to do.   Carla Birnberg ** 09:09 So I can guess that night before the Sunday before the first Monday after we sprung forward. I was like Carla, you've been doing this for years, but let's focus. Okay, so 8am Do we need to switch this out? Look didn't change the meeting time. Like you said, it's on us.   09:24 Yeah, literally cope. We did.   Carla Birnberg ** 09:28 That's because we're resilient and we're creative.   Michael Hingson ** 09:30 So what did you do once you left college? Well, I'm before you said your degree in college was what in right in writing English English literature. Yeah,   Carla Birnberg ** 09:42 you know, it seemed like a really good idea. I have a daughter who's 18 and my liberal arts degree has been great for cocktail conversation, and it's a lovely degree, but I wasn't really ready to do much after with it after graduation. So I as one does work In an outdoor store, I loved climbing and hiking, and I worked there probably for a year. And my mother, God bless her Jewish intellectual parents came into the store one day and said, Guess what? You're going to graduate school. Now, I'm not paying for this, but it's time to get doing something else. And so I got my master's degree in Educational Counseling. Okay, I use it every day. And I don't use it at all. It's one of those, it's been very helpful, but I've not used it in a traditional fashion.   Michael Hingson ** 10:31 Fair. I understand and empathize a lot, I got my bachelor's and master's degrees in physics. But wow, circumstances, ended up having me go in different directions. But I would never regret the times. And all that I learned in physics, the details, the kinds of things I learned some of the more basic life lessons like pay attention to details that are so important. And there's some examples of that in terms of why it's important in physics. But for me, I took it more to heart in a general way. And really work to pay attention to details, more of us ought to do that and observe what goes on around us, and learn to recognize what is working, what's not working, do really pay attention to the details to find out if the details are going the way we expect. And if they're not, why not? Because it might very well be that they have something to teach us. That's   Carla Birnberg ** 11:30 a really, phenomenally interesting takeaway from a physics degree I wouldn't have thought of. And you're right. That's a skill we all need. Because we need to know when to pivot when to change what we're doing. And if we're going too fast, we don't even notice. Right?   Michael Hingson ** 11:47 So you've got a master's in education. Yeah.   Carla Birnberg ** 11:53 And then what, and then I moved for a job, I was very excited, I packed up my car, I'm going to Chapel Hill, North Carolina for a job, I get to Chapel Hill, and welcome, but there's no job anymore. So again, if it and this kind of took me, I don't really believe we get off our path because everything comes together. But I ended up becoming and if you knew me in my childhood, this shocks, everybody actually straight up through college, a personal trainer, and not athletic at all. And I ended up opening a personal training studio, but with that using them it was master's in education with an emphasis on counseling. So those counseling skills, yes, I did need the fitness knowledge. But the counseling skills really helped make me successful as a personal trainer. And then I sold my training studio moved to Austin, and became a big online, personal brand all sort of by accident.   Michael Hingson ** 12:56 Why personal trainer, what what got you to do that?   Carla Birnberg ** 13:02 Back then I probably would have said because I love paying my rent and my bills. And it seemed like something I could do to make some money. But I know myself and what comes easy to me, I'm not a good teacher of I could never have taught the clarinet came very easy to me. I could have taught math because I struggled with it. I'm not naturally someone who's very adept with fitness, terrible hand eye coordination. And yet I knew when I started lifting weights briefly in college, for women, leaving much more than men, it's where we can find our voice. It's where we can discover our power. And so after that happened for me, I kind of wanted to proselytize or evangelize and share that with girls, mostly University of Chapel Hill, undergrads and women in the area. I believe in it's so much teaching us to be strong and take up space and speak up. It's really where I found my voice.   Michael Hingson ** 14:05 Why didn't you stay with it, though? You sold it eventually and move to Austin,   Carla Birnberg ** 14:09 sold it and move to Austin and no more brick and mortar for me ever. I mean, I   Carla Birnberg ** 14:18 it was great. But   Carla Birnberg ** 14:22 I knew there was a way and I figured it out sort of with another with group of. We call ourselves the OG bloggers across the United States. How could we give away what we were passionate about what our knowledge was in what our skill set was really for free on the internet. So I was working at the Austin American Statesman by day writing features working in their education department, and a blogger by night until the blogging by night got so big that I left the statesman and made that full time.   Michael Hingson ** 14:55 Ended up getting out of the newspaper business. none   Carla Birnberg ** 14:58 too soon to my chagrin. I mean, I'm sad that it's kind of dying off. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 15:03 Yeah, I think it'll be a sad day if we lose newspapers. I   Carla Birnberg ** 15:10 absolutely agree. I mean, that's some of my best memories of being a family growing up this Sunday, New York Times the local Pittsburgh paper.   Michael Hingson ** 15:21 So, you, you really got into blogging and what were you blogging about? Or what were you doing?   Carla Birnberg ** 15:29 It's that master's degree. It was personal development and fitness, but not prescriptive, not go to the gym and lift this weight and do it this way. It was more, what's your language of encouragement? A few iterations back? What's your why? How do we get to the gym? How do we commit to fitness? How do we figure out why this is even important to us so we can achieve the goals that we've set for ourselves. Okay,   Michael Hingson ** 15:55 well, going back even a little bit further and deeper. Why Austin? Ah, this   Carla Birnberg ** 16:01 marriage came down. Yes. And you know, it is I love the city. It's changed a lot. But I'm still not one of those. And there are many of them now. Just old Austin was better. And as we've grown, it's changed. And I love it just as much. I've been here 24 years. Long time. Hmm. Yes. And I have no plans to leave yet until unless they priced me out, then maybe?   Michael Hingson ** 16:26 Well, so. So you got into blogging and all that. And that's a good thing. But as you pointed out, needing incomes and so on, so how did all that work for you?   Carla Birnberg ** 16:44 So Well, I mean, I gratitude. There's I read somewhere once and I'm sure someone famous said it, and I should quote them, but I can't remember who if you woke up tomorrow with only what you were grateful for today. What would that look like? And I have such a gratitude practice kind of framed around that. And I was very lucky financially with the blogging got in at the beginning worked with some big big names Phila Birkenstock Wonderful Pistachios, Sears, who I think is no more worked with Venus Williams and really made it into a lucrative and enjoyable and impactful I could help people career until everyone became an influencer. And I read that landscape and thought it might be time to get out.   Michael Hingson ** 17:36 So the idea was, they were sort of sponsoring you, or they were paying you to write blogs for them. That's   Carla Birnberg ** 17:42 it, you know, they would come I mean, this was back in Paleozoic Era, like 2006. Let's say when I started, they would come with Okay, we have $35,000, what can you do for us? How many videos how many posts? Will you write, and we can put it on our website, Sears Venus Williams Birkenstock? Can you do print advertisement for us, though it was before everyone was an influencer? Where I get it. If I were the brand, I would think I'm going to pay 50 Different UT students $50 Each and see what I get versus these big paychecks to the original influencers? Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 18:24 So you did that. And, and again, at some point, it sounds like you pivoted into what?   Carla Birnberg ** 18:34 Wow, let's go back to March 2020. It was before then that I read the landscape. You know, I had some podcasts that I hosted. So I know how hard you work. And I had written a book. And at that point, I was working with Venus. She blurbed, the cover of my book, and I thought, Where do I go from here? I was doing LIVESTRONG with a big website at the time, some content creation for them. And I was just in that moment of what should my next be when the world sort of started looking like it was changing. I had already been in conversations with a startup in Austin and Nairobi about doing some marketing for them, potentially just fractional short term CMO. And I thought I don't know what's happening here. COVID And I'm gonna do this because I don't think it's the time to work the gig economy even though I don't know what's happening. And I mean, again, gratitude said yes, took the leap had never done anything like this. I'd done the marketing I'd never worked globally and just thought, I'm gonna give this a shot. And I mean, it is no understatement to say it is the best Yes, I've ever said second to working with dentists. It's the best death I've ever said.   Michael Hingson ** 19:50 Why is that?   Carla Birnberg ** 19:54 It has changed my life. I mean, I traveled a lot as a child. My dad was a professor So he would take his sabbatical in. He did it twice in London. So I lived in Oxford and I've been exposed to the world but not, not in this consistent way. And the backdrop of my entire life I'm Jewish, but I'm not religious is Tikun Olam, which means repair the world. And really, it's we can't fix everything. So let's take our little tiny corner and try to fix it up as best we can. And I'd watched my parents do that. And I done some volunteering, but this global experience and given me an opportunity to really take my gifts and use them in a different way and meet so many different people. And it's just shifted my life perspective. And I'm so grateful.   Michael Hingson ** 20:48 Well, yeah, so tell me more about kind of what you did and what you're doing. Now. I'm assuming it's all related.   Carla Birnberg ** 20:57 It is the short version with the startup as with many startups, our whole goal was to eventually have the entire C suite team moved to Kenya, after about two and a half years. That's what happened. And I can tell you, I could have looked for a totally different job at that point, not gotten up at four in the morning. But gratitude spiritual practice, I just really felt that my work in Africa wasn't done. And I shifted to our foundation and became I was the head of culture and inclusion with the for profit startup, and moved kind of back to marketing on some level and became the chief storyteller, for next step Foundation.   Michael Hingson ** 21:44 And the next step foundation. Sounds pretty fascinating. Tell me more about that, if you would,   Carla Birnberg ** 21:49 we focus on helping the historically and it gets back to semantics, you and I had a really great pre interview chat about that the historically excluded I now do not love the word marginalized, mostly from my, my project persons with disabilities, but the whole foundation, it's women and youth and persons with disabilities by we recruit them, we assess what they need, we accommodate whatever their needs are. Maybe this is a young woman who has no digital skills, maybe this young man needs a screen reader. And then we train them. And unlike many nonprofits in the Global South, we don't just train, we then transition them into the job and support them in the job, after mentorship, kind of making sure that they have everything they need, so that they can be successful and feel successful. It's not all about the career. It's also about feeling really good about the work that they're doing.   Michael Hingson ** 22:55 So where does the next step foundation function primarily?   Carla Birnberg ** 22:59 It is mainly in Nairobi. So it's yes, it's been a big shift, when I was with the for profit entity, there are probably 17 of us in the States. Now there to go around noon, it can feel like a ghost town. I love my team, because they'll stay up late for me. But mostly in Nairobi, we have a small office here.   Michael Hingson ** 23:26 And so tell me a little bit more about about what you do. And we definitely can have the discussion here that we had ahead of time. And I'll let you kind of lead that as to where you'd like it to go. But tell me a little bit more about what what you actually do now and and kind of how all that works.   Carla Birnberg ** 23:46 I'm so it's such perfect timing for us to talk. You know, I started chief storyteller, this is great. I got to help with some marketing language. That was fun. And my favorite aspect of the job, which is not my new project is helping to create the impact narratives of our participants. Because I mean, it's almost like a puzzle where I interview them. And then I get snippets half of the time, it's in Swahili, so I pull in other team members to translate and kind of get that opportunity to weave it into a story. And our focus at the foundation is ethical storytelling. I have nothing to do with the story. My perspective doesn't matter. And in addition to that, and I know that the participants and people with whom I've worked at Next Step sort of chuckle, but we always ask for vigorous and consistent consent. So if I write a fantasy story, and he says, yep, here's my story. Yes, he's my picture. He approves everything. I put it on LinkedIn. And then I want to share it on Twitter. I'm going back to him, because it's really important to us as a foundation and me as chief storage Heller, at any time, a Fontas could say, You know what, I'm kind of over it. I don't want you to share my story anymore of going from x and acquiring my disability and then doing this and getting this job. And we would say, okay, so I love that facet of my job, the storyteller, and yet I had a little gap of time. And that's how this new project was created. The one that you and I have spoken about. And can I transition into that? Yes, you are excited. Okay. It's, I'm so thrilled we just finished our pilot program. It's called oo p li, which means secondary and key Swahili.   Michael Hingson ** 25:39 And how do you spell that? Up?   Carla Birnberg ** 25:41 i Li. Okay, great. I know I actually had on my appealing necklace. And then I've no idea why I thought I would be a grown up and take it off. Because I'd like to wear it in the community. So people say, hey, Carla, actually, I have a keychain. They'll say, hey, Carla, what is your necklace? What is your pili? And then I whip out my keychain, Michael with the QR code on the back. And I'm like, Thank you for asking, here's the website and how you can give me money. very appealing means secondary. And we thought I thought, wouldn't it be amazing if we went into these special schools in Kenya, which is their way of defining the schools that are created only for persons with disabilities, typically, very segregated schools for the blind schools for the deaf, there are some which are for all disabilities. And there are some which they also call integrated, which means for people who do not have a disability and those with disabilities, the plan was to go into these schools and meet material needs, build perimeter walls, give them new desks, supply hot water heaters, things that are very important and that I thought, this is the answer we went to visit. And I suddenly it dawned on the entire team. This is great, giving physical items. But this is all for something many, many NGOs are already doing. They'll come in, every Oprah gets a new desk, they'll come in, we will paint and build new hospitals, what we would call dormitories. So I met with our team who went to joy town, this is where we did our pilot there all the antics, persons with disabilities and said, Okay, a lot of people are meeting this need for the physical items. What else is in need? That is even more pressing. And this is when the conversation began around what I was aware of, I thought through doing the impact storytelling, I was not aware of the deep degree. And we started talking about the stigma around being a person with a disability and Kenya, the stigma from childhood, the discrimination as they grew older, and the more we talk as a team, the more we realized, it's therapy. It's counselors with disabilities going into these special schools, and doing group therapy with students with disabilities to give them that psychosocial support needed, filling the gaps with what they might already be getting at school. So they build their self confidence. So when they graduate, and finally graduate, I know I'm excited, an equal rate as their non disabled peers, they can thrive, they can get their jobs because they process this past trauma.   Michael Hingson ** 28:50 So in general, how our disability is treated in Kenya, as opposed to in the US or in East Africa in general, how are how are they treated differently? Or are they treated differently? Or do you think that there are a lot of similarities? I   Carla Birnberg ** 29:06 would be the first to say that I am not. I'm, as not evidenced in this moment. I'm a listener more than a talker. So I've had an interesting conversation about this with friends with disabilities in the States. I would still say that the stigma is tremendous. We've come a little bit further here. I've written the stories of a lot of my team members and the pressure on their parents after they were born to leave the baby at the hospital to euthanize the baby. Because there's still that fear in the villages not so much in Nairobi, that the child has a curse. The family is now curse. They hide the children away frequently. I remember one student was talking about how her mother had tried to To kill her, and the assumption I came from was, Oh, that's very sad, you know, she was a baby, and she was probably 13 or 14, no, this had happened last spring break from school, there's so much shame and fear that I just don't see here.   Michael Hingson ** 30:21 Or at least hear, it may be covered up more, but there's still a lot of it. We still hear of, oh, say blind parents who want to who have a child, and the courts want to take them the child away, or their ballot battles around that, or parents who just shelter their children with disabilities and don't let them explore. So I had to write, I think, I think it may be that, that the hiding is more sophisticated in some ways. But I think to a very large degree, it's still there. And I think that it is because of what you said, it's the fear. And what we don't realize collectively, as a society, is that disability shouldn't mean a lack of ability, as, as I tell people, and then they say, well, but disability starts with dis. And I said, Yeah, and so does disciple, and so does discern. So what are you saying? You know, the the fact is that dis isn't the issue. It's the perception, it's the fear. It's the prejudice, that we all need to overcome, and get to the point where we truly recognize that what disability is, is a characteristic that every single person has, except that it manifests itself differently for different people.   Carla Birnberg ** 31:53 Yes, I mean, my past four and a half years have been like a PhD, and I don't know what it would be, but I have been so educated by my team. And what you said made me think of a couple of things. One is my go to I couldn't do anything without her. Mariam and degla. She's my up Lee everything campus liaison. She has said repeatedly, you know, my parents she has cerebral palsy hadn't just been her mother and her grandmother, go, you're like any other child? No, we're not going to make accommodations for you, she said always says to me, I would not have come as far as they didn't shelter me. And that she credits that to her success in life.   Michael Hingson ** 32:38 Yeah, and actually, there are differences between accommodations. And yes, you're right sheltering. But I know what you're saying. And the reality is that we we make accommodations for sighted people all the time, right? We have lights in our buildings so that people can see where to walk, we have your right, we have a coffee machine so that people can get coffee or tea or hot chocolate or something, even though it's touchscreen nowadays, so it's not even accessible for everyone. We have so many different things that we offer. But we like it to be more one sided. We don't recognize that those are just as much accommodations as providing a screen reader for providing a ramp.   Carla Birnberg ** 33:27 And curb cut effect I had not heard of until four years ago. We use them all the time, the captions, all of it. And yet we avail ourselves of things that aren't created for us.   Michael Hingson ** 33:42 Right? The reality is that we all have gifts, and we all have things that we don't do as well as other people. And it is it is so unfortunate that we haven't even in this country taken the leap to really understand that.   Carla Birnberg ** 34:04 No, and I think I see that much more clearly. Now, I see that much more clearly not doing the work in East Africa. I do. You know, I think and I was thinking about this earlier, and I almost reached out to you by email, and then I thought now you're such a brilliant man, I'm gonna corner you And wouldn't you think that our therapists so we always use counselors with disabilities, first of all, so that the students see the counselor and think that's pretty amazing. I could do that. I had never I didn't dream that was possible. But also they have shared lived experience. If we'd had a counselor, even Kenyan go into his run this group therapy group who didn't have a disability, they would waste two or three sessions trying to explain to him or her, this is what it's like being me in Kenya. So he went in and thought okay, we are going to To practice affirmations using a mirror, this is going to be very interesting, the students might need some help bolstering their self esteem and coming up with the affirmations. I'm on it. She was surprised. And again, woman with a disability, that most of the students in therapy groups were completely unable to look in the mirror, because they had kind of integrated all of the negativity that had come at them from their families from the village. They couldn't even look at themselves in the mirror. And even she was shocked by that. And I'm really curious, your thoughts on is that unique to Kenya and that vast amount of negativity and stigma around having a disability? Or do you think that might be paralleled in the USA?   Michael Hingson ** 35:47 Well, I think there is a fair amount of it in the USA. I've not heard of anybody who said that they can't look at themselves in the middle. Except for vampires, but. But I do seriously think that there are a lot of similarities. So I've told the story a few times on unstoppable mindset. But I did a talk a few years ago, it was a hybrid talk. And I talked about disabilities. And I talked about the fact that for blind people. In reality, the term visually impaired is one of the most disgusting things that people can say to describe us, even though it's what the so called experts in the field created years ago, but visually impaired is a problem for a couple of reasons. One, visually, we're not different simply because we're blind to lose your eyesight, it doesn't mean that you're visually different. So that's a problem. But the bigger issue is impaired. Why am I being at all compared with person with eyesight? Why is it that I have to be considered impaired simply because I don't see if you want to talk about vision? I think I got lots of vision, I just don't see good. Like, I'd love to tell people. Don't I talk? Well, anyway. So I think that the term visually impaired is a problem. And I mentioned that in my talk. And I also said, the better terminology is blind and low vision. A lot of people hate blind, but you know what, that's what I am. And I happen to be physically blind. And there are a lot of idiots out there who are mentally blind, and we won't go there.   Carla Birnberg ** 37:30 We won't go encountered a lot.   Michael Hingson ** 37:32 But But anyway, so the the issue with the talk is I gave this talk. And then I opened it for questions. And people could in the audience, ask questions, or people could call in and this one woman called in, and she said, I am visually impaired. And that's all there is to it. And I said, No, you're not, you're blind. No, I have I just I have some eyesight, then you're low vision. No, I'm visually impaired. See, the problem is all too often we buy into it. And we don't understand how that kind of language continuing to be promulgated around, contributes to the view that people have about us. I love that phrase buy   Carla Birnberg ** 38:18 into it. That's it, I   Michael Hingson ** 38:20 am not impaired. And if I'm going to talk about being impaired, even though your disability is covered up so much, because you have access to electric lights, just have a power failure and see what you do, you immediately look for a smartphone or a flashlight so that you can get light back, because Thomas Edison invented the electric light bulb for you. You like dependent people. But the bottom line is it still is only covering up your disability. Disability is a characteristic that we all have every single person on the planet. And it only manifests itself differently depending on what your gifts are and what your gifts are not.   Carla Birnberg ** 39:03 Okay, super interesting. And well, I'm sure I should have thought about this. But 54 and a half, I hadn't really thought about it much because I've never broken anything. And I'm just getting to this point. But again, Mary and my right hand woman will frequently say, in high school, I advocated for youth students with disabilities and people who had temporary disabilities. And that's a pretty big refrain from her. And the more she said it the more I've thought, oh, yeah, everyone is going to experience some sort of something, whether it's breaking your leg, whether it's becoming low vision, better phrase,   Michael Hingson ** 39:44 or, or whether you suddenly lose power and you can't see what you're doing. And that's my point. Yeah, no, that's my point is that the reality is the disability is there anyway. Yeah, but we do work. And right At least so to offset disabilities that limit us like a lack of light, it's okay, I have no problem with the fact that we have light bulbs, we have so many different mechanisms and ways of producing light for people. But be honest with yourself, it still is a disability, because the time can come when you don't have access to it, the time can come that a person who happens to be blind, might be somewhere and not have access to information that we would like to have access to and ought to have access to. Yeah, and only over more time, will society recognize that it has to provide information to us in in ways that work for everyone, I have a favorite example, I'm not gonna really not be able to describe this very well. But I'm going to try. There's a TV commercial that goes on out here. And the commercial starts out with this woman saying, you know, dad had this. And I don't want you to get it either. You have to really take care of yourself and take care of this right now. Because if you don't, it is going to run your life. And I know that you're one of these, you don't really like anyone telling you what to do. Well, that's the end of the commercial. And I don't know what goes on. There is absolutely nothing. And I don't know whether you've seen that commercial earlier. But there is nothing that says what that commercial is about. Now, someone this morning, I talked with someone who told me that it has to do with some sort of medical thing. And but But even she couldn't remember exactly what it was because there is not a single verbal cue in that commercial telling you what it's about. Much less making it accessible to be Yeah, yeah. And the reality is that, as we all know, many times people don't sit in front of their TV during commercials, they look away or they get up and they go to the bathroom or whatever. It is such a poorly designed commercial because of that. And, and it's unfortunate. But somebody figured, well, we don't need to worry about it other than people being able to see it, and they'll see it and they'll get it. No, they won't. Because it's all too often that people don't watch the screen. And as I said this morning, the person I asked who I regard as an extremely observant person couldn't even tell me what company that commercial was about.   Carla Birnberg ** 42:45 Oh, interesting. And you're right, the world's not, it's not set up accessively. In many instances, it's   Michael Hingson ** 42:53 not set up. Well, accessively or inclusively, we are much less inclusive than we ought to be that commercial could have been created in a much different way to provide information to everyone. But they didn't. And it's so unfortunate. So it shows in some senses, although I think we've made progress in this country. It also shows how far we have not come because that kind of thing still exists.   43:26 Yes. Yes.   Carla Birnberg ** 43:29 I mean, I've thought so much about this, since we set the date for the podcast and just every day at work that my perspective doesn't matter. It's been interesting to me to see. There's a feels like there's a big differential as far as the trauma, outgrowth of being a person with disability. But other than that, that's really the only major difference. And that's what made us think, okay, we need to focus on mitigating this trauma so that the students can be successful.   Michael Hingson ** 44:00 Well, there's a lot of merit to having role models. And when you bring people in, who are true role models, it makes a lot of sense to do that. And I think there's a lot of precedent for that. So having counselors having people who come from the same kind of environment that they come from, is very relevant. I spoke in Japan, back in 2012. Well, it was the publisher of thunder dog. My book in Japanese brought me over for two weeks. And one of the things that I learned there was that if you are a blind person, I don't know if it's changed since then. But if you're a blind person, you are not allowed to sign a contract. Period. You can't see a contract period. How am I asked this Someone who was in the insurance industry why? And his response essentially was was it should be very obvious because you could be cheated. And I said, Oh, so you're telling me that no sighted people in Japan are ever cheated when it comes to signing contracts? Oh, exactly. Even though today, there is technology that allows me to fully read contracts. Right? All right, with that time, the Kurzweil Reading Machine, the mobile KNFB. Reader Mobile, although it hadn't come out in Japanese yet, but it has since. But the reality is, again, it's the prejudice. For many years, the Gallup polling organization and surveying people's fears, said that one of the top five fears that people had was going blind, not even disabilities, but losing eyesight, because that's for her that because that's what we emphasize eyesight. But it's not the way it ought to be. Over time, it will change. And I firmly believe that we will see a day when television commercials like the one I described earlier will be not tolerated. But I think we're not anywhere near there yet. Somebody once said to me, I look forward to the day when we don't have to even use the word accessible, because it's just such an automatic thing, that everything is included for everyone.   46:33 That's it.   Carla Birnberg ** 46:34 That's it. And I don't know if you know who Judy human is. I've been okay. But we both became really far. In her lifetime. And I don't know, I'm curious, your thoughts? Will we get there? I mean, I know we're trying to in Kenya, where companies hire these, again, like which they are persons with disabilities, they're trained, they're brilliant, they're ready to go, and they just start work and everything they need isn't an accommodation. It's just the way the office is. And I hope we get there here.   Michael Hingson ** 47:15 Yeah, I think we will. But I do think that the way the world is now we have to legislate it, because attitude only we're not there. You know, one of the big discussions in the world has been the internet. And many people have not made their websites accessible. Yeah, hence the need for companies like excessive be. Yeah, but but people have said, well, but we we don't need to do it because the internet came along, after the ADA. So the ADA covers physical things, but it doesn't cover the internet, because it's just the way it is. Well, yeah. The reality is is not what the ADEA says it doesn't talk about specifically and only physical places of business. And finally, in 2022, the Department of Justice, II dicted, if you will, that the internet is covered under Title, two of the Americans with Disabilities Act, and website should be made, accessible and inclusive. Yeah, but even so   Michael Hingson ** 48:30 a lot of well, most website owners don't pay attention to it, they think it's too expensive. But again, hence companies like accessibility and what access to be brings. But also, the the other aspect of it is that most people just don't even know they don't think about it. It doesn't need to be expensive to make the internet or your website accessible or inclusive. But it's also the right thing to do, because it covers more than just blindness. And the fact is that there's so many different kinds of disabilities that are affected by not having full access to the internet. And it's easy enough to do. And there are procedures and guidelines that describe exactly what needs to be done and how to do it. If people would just do it. That's it   Carla Birnberg ** 49:24 and people don't. Five years ago, I was people like and it's no better do better. I sent to a big social media person the other day. I love your I don't know, we're calling them exes, your tweets, but you never use alt text on your picture. And he said, I don't even know what that is. Yeah. And so I thought it's what you said that sometimes people are lazy websites and as people think it'd be too expensive. Sometimes they just don't think   Michael Hingson ** 49:54 some people just don't know. Yes, it we don't teach it In computer science schools very much like we should. I'm involved with an organization that is creating its website. And they went out and got bids from two local places to make the website up and running to get it up and running and operational. And I said, as as part of a discussion, and what are they doing regarding accessibility? Oh, they say that they know how to do that. And I said, Tell me more about that. Well, one of the companies said, Well, the fact is that it isn't the website design that has to be addressed. The person with a screen reader has to make the accommodations and make the modifications to work on the website.   50:47 Oh, that's not what we want to hear. Well, oh, that is so wrong. Oh, my God, and so neither ms on them.   Michael Hingson ** 50:55 Yeah. And so accessible is going to be the the product that they use, rightly so because the company, the website owner doesn't have a lot of money. But it will be possible to make the website accessible. And we found another company that will do the job for the same price or less than any of the other companies. And it will include accessibility. And they will actually use accessibility, because it's such a great product to use for making this kind of thing happen. But the reality is, the the original people who were looking at getting the website quotes, also were clueless. And they were ready to buy into well, it's got to be the sky with the screen reader just got to fix it. Until they learned, we don't teach it yet. We don't teach real inclusion yet, as a part of what we do, and it's something that we really need to look at. We'll get there. You're   Carla Birnberg ** 51:57 right, you're right. And it's people like me who I'm not doing any sort of web design. But I launched a substack. I was late to that party, and I wanted to make it accessible. So I always have a voiceover. And a bunch of readers have said to me, that super me that you read it. I'm like, well, it is super neat, but it's for accessibility. And like, oh, I don't even think about that. So I think it's the lay people, we need to start spreading the word. And I don't know how we do that, except for leading by example, practice living   Michael Hingson ** 52:27 by example, writing more articles, including disabilities in the conversation. And all too often we don't do that.   Carla Birnberg ** 52:35 And that's why one of the biggest reasons why I love where I work, I'm taking the backseat. And when it was the for profit, I had a whole team of persons with disabilities who told me what was what and how things should be and what language to use. And I listened. And now same thing, I will look to marry him or Daniel or Terry or Becky, what do we need here? Why do we need it all make it happen? But you tell me I don't have the lived experience?   53:04 Yeah. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 53:07 as I said, I think the most important thing we need to do is to really push the conversation to always involve disabilities. When you talk about diversity, you know, what is there? What is diversity to you?   Carla Birnberg ** 53:19 And, you know, I think I would have answered differently 10 years ago, but now it's always inclusion. It's well,   Michael Hingson ** 53:27 but that's, that's not diversity. Tell me what diversity is. And use your answer from 10 years ago. Okay.   Carla Birnberg ** 53:34 10 years ago, I would have thought it's bringing persons of color into the conversation and not having everybody looked the same   Michael Hingson ** 53:43 race, gender, sexual orientation,   Carla Birnberg ** 53:46 and maybe not even sexual orientation, because I think I would have been 10 years ago. Yeah, would have been,   Michael Hingson ** 53:52 but three and four years ago, yeah. But today, race, gender, sexual orientation. Diversity is about difference. And we don't include disabilities. We don't include persons with disabilities or or   Carla Birnberg ** 54:11 we do with the foundation. And when you what are your thoughts on that? Well, I think   Michael Hingson ** 54:16 the issue is that that's why I gave a speech entitled, moving from diversity to inclusion. You can't be inclusive, if you are not bringing disabilities into it, like as part of the population. But but we're, we're inclusive of color and so on, but you're not inclusive. You can't get away with it if we don't allow it. So we're not going to let inclusion be screwed up, if you will, like we have allowed diversity to be screwed up and not including disabilities. And that's what what we really need to do is to take that step of recognizing that we're all part of the same planet And we all need to recognize that and it's important to do that.   Carla Birnberg ** 55:06 And I know I mean, that's kind of where my project fits into the greater umbrella of the foundation is. The youth with disabilities, students with disabilities weren't graduating. And so the office landscapes weren't inclusive or reflecting the true population. And we need to help the students graduate so that the foundation can step in and train them and job place them so that we're inclusive. And the makeup of the officers look like the real makeup of society.   Michael Hingson ** 55:41 So what motivates you to get up in those, do those early morning or stay up for those late night phone calls?   Carla Birnberg ** 55:47 Oh, my gosh, thank goodness, I think this all the time, even if I didn't get up early. I'm not late night. So thank goodness, I don't work for a foundation in India. You know, I'm passionate, somewhat my Nespresso, which I love. But I've mentioned Mary Ann's name a million times, Beth, what do goo I love my team. And I think when the alarm goes off at four, it's noon, or it's one o'clock, what's going on? I just love it. It's, I don't know, it's my why it's that notion of, I'm not making huge difference in the world, somebody in the middle of Iowa has no idea who I am. But I'm making a tiny little impact, and I'm loving what I'm learning, and I'm loving every minute of it.   Michael Hingson ** 56:37 And that's the important thing. You love it. You know, you love it. And you're gonna continue to do it. If people want to reach out and learn more about the next step Foundation, or maybe become involved in some way, how can they do that?   Carla Birnberg ** 56:52 I would love it, I am up for a zoom anytime the best way to find me would be going to LinkedIn. And it's U P I L I Upili. message us, I would love to chat. We're always looking for insights for mental health professionals in the United States. Clearly, we're always looking for donors, but just conversations around what we're doing. And I'm always curious what other people are doing as well how they are making an impact.   Michael Hingson ** 57:23 So just search for U p i l i on LinkedIn. That's   Carla Birnberg ** 57:28 right Upili, we have a website, it's upili.org. But either of those two ways. You can find me. Okay,   Michael Hingson ** 57:35 and that's and that's all connected to the next step foundation.   Carla Birnberg ** 57:38 Yep, we're a project underneath them. Cool.   Michael Hingson ** 57:41 Well, I hope people will reach out. I know that they've heard me say some of these same things before a number of times. But it's great to hear the progress that you're making and the things that you're doing. And I really hope that we're able to contribute to bringing progress, both in East Africa and that we through this conversation, we'll get more people talking about it here in the US as well.   Carla Birnberg ** 58:10 Yes, and I always loved listening to you and talking to you. Because it gets me thinking in a different way to   Michael Hingson ** 58:15 well, we should do more of it than total, we can both learned to to get different perspectives. Well, I want to thank you for being here. And I want to thank all of you for and I want to thank you all for listening. We really appreciate it or watching if you're on YouTube. But wherever you're experiencing the podcast, we would really appreciate it if you'd give us a five star rating. We love those and we love your reviews. So please do that. If you'd like to reach out to me and have any questions or want to chat further about this, please feel free. You can reach me at Michaelhi at accessibe.com That's m i c h a e l h i at accessiBe  A C C E S S I B E.com. Or you can go to our podcast page, which is www dot Michael hingson.com/podcast. And Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n.com/podcasts. So we'd love to hear from you. And if any of you, including you, Carla, have a thought of anyone who else we ought to have on as a guest love to hear from you. We are always looking for people who want to come on and tell stories and talk about interesting things. And even if we talk about some of the same things we've talked about before on the podcast, I don't think it gets boring. And the more we do it, the more people will gain an understanding of it. So we sure look forward to hearing from you with ideas of guests and other people who want to be part of the podcast. So thank you very much and really appreciate your your involvement in that. But again, Carla, I want to thank you for being here and for taking the time to be with us today. Thank you so much for having me. It was so fun   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:07 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

Show Summary Would you like to hear insight based on decades of experience, both advising applicants to a variety of healthcare programs and working in admissions offices for, again, many different healthcare programs? Well, today's episode is the ticket for you. Dr. Emil Chuck, Director of Advising Services for the Health Professional Student Association is our guest. He discusses the admissions process for healthcare programs. He shares his recommendation for networking, shadowing, and journaling as ways for applicants to gain insight into the healthcare field and develop critical thinking skills. He advises applicants to consider the mission and values of each school they apply to and to choose schools that align with their own goals and values. Dr. Chuck also emphasizes the importance of submitting applications early and being mindful of deadlines. He provides information about the Health Professional Student Association (HPSA) and Student Doctor Network (SDN) resources for applicants. Show Notes Welcome to the 561st episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for joining me. Do you know how to get accepted to medical school? Accepted does, and we share that knowledge and insight in our free guide, Med School Admissions: What You Need to Know to Get Accepted. Download your free copy at accepted.com/561download.  I'm thrilled to introduce our guest, Dr. Emil Chuck. He is the Director of Advising Services for the Health Professional Student Association, which among other services and assets host the Student Doctor Network, a major resource for applicants to and students in the healthcare fields. Dr. Chuck earned his Bachelor's of Science in Engineering in Biomedical Engineering from Duke University and his PhD in Cell Biology from Case Western Reserve University. He began his career in research, but then moved into higher ed and admissions. Serving at different times student advisor and test prep teacher for Kaplan Test Prep, founding health Professionals Student Advisor for 5 years at George Mason University, Director of Admissions at Case Western's School of Dental Medicine, admissions consultant for the ADEA, Director of Admissions and Recruitment at Rosalind Franklin University, and for the last two years as Director of Advising Services at the Health Professional Student Association or HPSA. On SDN's forums he is known as the prolific, helpful, and extremely knowledgeable Mr.Smile12. In addition, he has also served in numerous volunteer roles for professional organizations. Dr. Chuck, welcome to Admissions Straight Talk. [2:29] Linda, it's a great pleasure to be part of your podcast and thank you so much for inviting me. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself? Let's start with some really easy questions: your background, where you grew up, and how on earth you got interested in admissions from biomedical engineering. [2:39] I guess the stuff that's not on LinkedIn certainly is the earlier background about me. I'm proud to say that I'm a first-generation student. My parents immigrated from Hong Kong a couple of years before I was born. And so of all the places in the entire world where I guess in the United States where I would be born and raised for about 17 of my years before going to Duke was Shreveport, Louisiana, that's northwest Louisiana, not anywhere near New Orleans to just make sure people know. And basically I grew up in that city, that little small town in northwest Louisiana and now apparently the home district to our current speaker of the house. It's a little bit of a trivia note. I don't know him. That's one of the little known facts in terms of how it shaped my worldview one way or another.  Obviously at the period of time when I was growing up, I was involved in a lot of research type projects and did science fairs, was involved in medical research at the medical school over there at LSU Shreveport before moving on to ultimately apply to all the various scho...

Hoy, las de "Diario económico" hemos diversificado un poco. En la primera parte del progama hemos profundizado en las percepciones de los directivos y ejectutivos de Aragón. Las que recoge el Barómetro de opinión de ADEA sobre cómo han vivido el final de 2023 y qué esperan de los seis primeros meses del 24 en asuntos esenciales para las empresas como la financiación, la plantilla o las ventas. Se lo hemos preguntado  al presidente de ADEA, Fernando Rodrigo.Y luego nos hemos ido volando para hablar con el cofundador de una empresa especializada en el uso de drones, Cristian Aldaz, que acaba de cerrar una ronda de financiación con un fondo de inversión. Queremos saber por qué han acudido a esta forma de buscar dinero, cómo ha sido el proceso y todo lo que quieren hacer con esta inversión.

For this episode of The Jason Cavness Experience, I am covering HR Laws you have to follow if your company has 49 or fewer employees CavnessHR Product/Market Fit Validation and Tech Platform Validation To help us with our product market fit and tech platform validation. We are providing Employee Handbooks and HR policies at no cost to companies with 49 or fewer people in the city of Seattle. Email me at jasoncavness@CavnessHR.com if you are interested in this. Go to www.thejasoncavnessexperience.com for the full episode and other episodes of The Jason Cavness Experience on your favorite platforms.  Sponsor  CavnessHR delivers HR companies with 49 or fewer people with our HR platform and by providing you access to your own HRBP. www.CavnessHR.com HR Laws for Small Business with 49 or fewer employees  If you have at least one employee, the following HR laws apply to you.  Drug-Free Workplace Act: The Drug-Free Workplace Act of 1988 only applies to federal grant recipients and federal contractors with a contract for more than $100,000. Drug-Free Workplace Requirements Generally, it requires that covered employers: adopt a drug-free workplace policy; and establish a drug-free awareness program. Employers faced with alcohol and drug use in the workplace often consider employee and applicant drug testing as a way to reduce safety risks and avoid other problems caused by employee drug use. Employers that use drug testing should be aware of the many laws and regulations governing safety, employee privacy, and disability.  The issues involved include both legally mandated and voluntary drug-free workplace programs, discrimination and accommodation, testing, and special requirements for the transportation industry. Electronic Communications Privacy Act (ECPA): Prohibits intentional interceptions of wire, oral, or electronic communications. https://it.ojp.gov/privacyliberty/authorities/statutes/1285 Employee Polygraph Protection Act: Forbids most employers to use lie detectors. Poster required.  https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/polygraph Employee Retirement Income Security Act (ERISA): Regulates benefits through a complex series of rules covering pensions, profit-sharing, stock bonus, and most insurance and other benefit plans. What is ERISA? The Employee Retirement Income Security Act (ERISA) was enacted to ensure that employees receive the pension and other benefits promised by their employers. ERISA also incorporates and is tied to Internal Revenue Code (IRC) provisions designed to encourage employers to provide retirement and other benefits to their employees. Most provisions of ERISA and the IRC are intended to ensure that tax-favored pension plans do not favor the highest-paid employees over rank-and-file employees. ERISA has a complex series of rules that cover pension, profit-sharing, stock bonus, and most “welfare benefit plans,” such as health and life insurance. ERISA has created a single federal standard for employee benefits, and it supersedes almost all state laws that affect employee benefit plans. An employer's responsibilities under ERISA vary depending on the type of plan involved. https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/retirement/erisa Military Leave -Uniformed Services Employment and Reemployment Rights Act (USERRA) of 1994: Prohibits discrimination against those who serve in the military; mandates military leave of absence.  With the increased use of reserve and National Guard troops in full-time military service, employers must frequently deal with the requirements of the Uniformed Services Employment and Reemployment Rights Act (USERRA) of 1994 when those employees are called to active services and when they return. USERRA governs the leave and reinstatement requirements for military personnel. The law contains specific requirements for protected leave, rules for benefits employees are entitled to during military leave, and the requirements for reinstatement back in the civilian workforce.  https://www.dol.gov/vets/programs/userra/userra_fs.htm Employee Right to Know Laws (Hazardous Chemicals in Workplace): A disclosure rule that requires private sector employers with hazardous substances in their workplace to develop a comprehensive hazard communication program to train and inform employees.  https://www.osha.gov/Publications/osha3111.html National Labor Relations Act (NLRA): Employees have the right to organize and bargain collectively for wages, hours, and working conditions. The National Labor Relations Act of 1935 (NLRA) was passed by Congress to encourage a healthy relationship between private sector workers and their employers. It was designed to curtail work stoppages, strikes, and general labor strife, which were viewed by Congress as harmful to the economy and the nation's welfare. To this end, the Act defines and protects the rights of employees and employers, encourages collective bargaining, and prohibits certain practices on the part of both labor and management. The NLRA also provides a system for conducting elections to determine who represents the employees and for enforcement of the strictures against unfair practices by any of the parties.  https://www.nlrb.gov/guidance/key-reference-materials/national-labor-relations-act Occupational Safety and Health Act (OSHA): Employers must furnish a workplace that is free from recognized hazards. Poster required. https://webapps.dol.gov/elaws/elg/osha.htm Equal Pay Act (EPA): Forbids discrimination in pay on the basis of gender. Poster required. Two federal statutes prohibit gender-based differences in pay: the Equal Pay Act of 1963 (EPA) and Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (Title VII). Title VII and other federal laws also prohibit pay discrimination based on race, color, religion, national origin, age, and disability. Although the EPA and Title VII both prohibit pay discrimination based on gender, the laws differ in several aspects, including coverage, enforcement, and remedies.  https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/statutes/epa.cfm Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA): Regulates the payment of minimum wages and overtime. Poster required. The Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA), also known as the federal Wage and Hour Law, regulates minimum wage, overtime, equal pay, recordkeeping, and child labor for employees of enterprises engaged in interstate or foreign commerce and employees of state and local governments. The FLSA is enforced by the Wage and Hour Division of the U.S. Department of Labor (DOL). The FLSA applies in all states, but states are permitted to develop their own laws and regulations to provide even greater protection for their workers than is provided under federal law. In cases in which the two laws conflict, the law most beneficial to the employee prevails. Therefore, it is essential that employers understand both the state and federal laws. https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/flsa Immigration Reform and Control Act (IRCA): Employers must verify that workers are legally entitled to work in the United States. IRCA also prohibits employers from discriminating in hiring, firing, recruiting, or referring based on national orgin or citizensip status. It is also illegal to retaliate against an employee who has filed.  The Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986 (IRCA) bars employers from hiring individuals, including undocumented immigrants, who are not legally entitled to work in the United States Employers must verify that individual are eligible to work by obtaining an Employment eligibility Verification Form, know as Form I-9 and inspecting the required supporting documents at the time of hiring. I-9 forms must be retained for 3 years after the worker is hired or for one year after termination, whichever is longer. https://www.uscis.gov/i-9 Federal Income Tax Withholding:  Employers are required to make deductions from employees' pay for Social Security. Employers are required by law to make deductions from the pay of their employees for federal income tax, for Social Security tax under the Federal Insurance Contribution Act (FICA), and for Medicare tax. The government provides detailed tables for the computation of these withholding amounts. Internal Revenue Service (IRS) Publication 15 (Circular E), Employer's Tax Guide, provides details and may be obtained on the IRS website athttps://www.irs.gov/forms-instructions.  What do employers need to consider regarding Social Security and Medicare? The Social Security program was created by the federal Social Security Act. It is a worker-employer-government insurance program, covering benefits for retirement, survivors, disability and Medicare. Employers withhold two separate taxes from employees' paychecks. One is the Social Security tax and the other is the Medicare tax. Medicare, which is funded through taxes, provides health insurance for people aged 65 or older and many people with disabilities. Medicare consists of Parts A (hospital insurance), B (medical insurance), and C (Medicare Advantage), which offer additional preventive health benefits and patient protections. In 2006, Medicare began offering prescription drug plans, known as Part D.  https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/federal-income-tax-withholding Federal Insurance Contributions Act (FICA) of 1935 (Social Security): Employers and Employees are required to contribute to Social Security and Medicare. https://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc751 Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act (HIPAA): Limits the duration of pre-existing condition exclusion in group health plans and gives new enrollees credit for prior coverage. https://www.hhs.gov/hipaa/index.html If you have at least 15 employees, the following HR laws apply to you. Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA): Forbids discrimination against the disabled. The Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) prohibits disability discrimination. In the workplace, employers cannot discriminate against a qualified individual with a disability. Reasonable accommodation by employers is required absent undue hardship. The ADA Amendments Acts of 2008 (ADAAA) and its regulations significantly broadened the definition of disability, shifting the focus away from whether an individual has a disability and toward whether discrimination occurred.  https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/disability/ada Pregnancy Discrimination Act (PDA): Forbids discrimination on the basis of pregnancy, childbirth, or related medical conditions. Several federal laws protect or grant rights to workers on the basis of pregnancy or related medical conditions. These rights and protections may include the right to be free from discrimination, harassment, and stereotypes; the right to reasonable workplace accommodations, such as job modifications, extended or additional breaks, and leave; the right to leave for pregnancy, childbirth, related medical conditions, and bonding; and the right to equivalent fringe benefits, such as health insurance. https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/statutes/pregnancy.cfm Genetic Information Nondiscrimination Act: To prohibit discrimination on the basis of genetic information with respect to health insurance and employment. The Genetic Information Nondiscrimination Act (GINA) prohibits genetic information discrimination against employees or job applicants. https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/statutes/gina.cfm Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964: Prohibits discrimination on the basis of race, color, religion, sex, and national origin. Federal fair employment laws protect employees from discrimination based on age, race, color, sex, national origin, religion, disability, and genetic information. Federal law covers employers of 15 or more employees, except for the Age Discrimination in Employment Act (ADEA), which covers employers with 20 or more employees. State laws often cover employers with fewer employees and provide protection for groups not covered under federal law. Certain individuals in the workplace, such as independent contractors, are not protected by federal fair employment laws if they are not employees. Employers are liable for discriminatory acts by supervisors—in some cases, strictly liable. There are many preventive measures an employer can take to reduce the probability of being sued for discrimination. Civil rights laws also impose numerous recordkeeping requirements on employers. https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/statutes/titlevii.cfm Civil Rights Act of 1964 (Update): Extends prohibition of discrimination on the basis of sex to gay, lesbian, and transgender individuals. https://www.npr.org/2020/06/15/863498848/supreme-court-delivers-major-victory-to-lgbtq-employees If you have at least 20 employees, the following HR laws apply to you. Age Discrimination in Employment Act (ADEA): Forbids the discrimination on the basis of age 40 and over. The Age Discrimination in Employment Act (ADEA) prohibits all public employers and private employers with 20 or more employees from discriminating against employees or applicants based on age. Individuals must be at least 40 years of age to be covered by the ADEA. Harassment of employees based on age is also unlawful discrimination. The ADEA also protects an older worker's disability payments, retirement incentives, life insurance, pension, and retirement plans. Amendments to the ADEA set out standards for waivers of legal rights by older employees in return for retirement incentives. Many states also have fair employment laws that prohibit age discrimination. Different age groups may be protected under state law, and smaller employers may be subject to state requirements. https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/statutes/adea.cfm Consolidated Omnibus Benefits Reconciliation Act (COBRA): Requires that employees who lose coverage under group health plans be given a continuation option. https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/health-plans/cobra CavnessHR Product/Market Fit Validation and Tech Platform Validation To help us with our product market fit and tech platform validation. We are providing Employee Handbooks and HR policies at no cost to companies with 49 or fewer people in the city of Seattle. Email me at jasoncavness@CavnessHR.com if you are interested in this.

Katherine, (Kat), Magnoli grew up in New York and definitely has an unstoppable New York attitude. At birth it was discovered that Kat was born with Spinal Bifida. As a result, she is a paraplegic and uses a wheelchair. Unlike many, Kat's parents fully embraced Kat and the many gifts she has exhibited over her 39 years thus far. In grammar school Kat experienced a number of bullying events, but worked through them with the help of her parents. Those childhood experiences and others Kat will describe shaped her decision to advocate for persons, especially children, with disabilities. She works a great deal to advocate on behalf of children with autism. As we learn during our conversation, we share in our own ways many similar experiences especially concerning how people react to disabilities. Also, both of us are authors. I leave it to Kat to tell you about her books which you can procure. If all her advocacy and writing work aren't enough, Katherine is Miss Wheelchair Florida for 2017. Is that cool or what? I believe you will enjoy our conversation during this episode and I hope you come away with a deeper understanding about disabilities on all levels. About the Guest: Katherine Magnoli is an inclusion advocate. She began her journey of advocacy by writing and publishing Children Adventure Books about a super hero in a wheelchair . Her books are titled The Adventures of KatGirl. Over the years, Katherine has read her stories to thousands of children. Since then, Katherine has expanded her advocacy by participating and being the title holder of Ms. Wheelchair Florida 2017. During her time Katherine developed the Abilities Program, whose activities were used during Disability Awareness Month and Inclusion Week in 2018. She, also, created beach access in Sunny Isles Beach, Bal Harbour and Surfside. After this, she joined Miami Inclusion Alliance to help bring awareness to the epidemic of Abuse against People with Disabilities. In 2021, she was awarded the Idelio Valdez Advocacy and Leadership Award by the Florida Developmental Disability Council and became the representative of District 11 for the Commission of Disabilities Issues Board. Which, she is now the secretary, as well. In addition, Katherine is the Founder, and President, of KatGirl and Friends Inc. It helps educate children about inclusion through her book series. Finally, Katherine has recently begun disability etiquette training and has had the privilege of training students at University Level and prestigious Organizations such as American Civil Liberties Union. Katherine is currently very active on social media helping educate the masses on inclusion of people with disabilities. In the near future; Katherine will take part in the Family Cafe in Orlando, Miami Dade County's ADA Celebration and will be a virtual panelist for the Space Coastal Progressive Alliance to discuss issues pertaining to services for people with disabilities. Ways to connect with Kat: https://katgirlandfriends.com/ About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app. Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes **Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i  capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.  **Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Well, hi and welcome once again to unstoppable mindset. Today, I get to have the honor of chatting with an author and a person who was Miss wheelchair in 2017. I've never met a miss wheelchair before, although my wife of 40 years was always in a wheelchair. So wheelchairs are not new to me. But a miss wheelchair is a new experience and an author. I have written books and love to talk to people who are authors and Kat Magnoli is definitely an advocate and a very prolific person in a lot of different ways. And we're gonna get to all of that. So Kat or Katherine, whichever you prefer, whoever you are. Welcome to unstoppable mindset. **Kat Magnoli ** 02:05 Thank you so much, Michael, for having me today. This is such an honor to be with you. And let's get it started as you'd like. **Michael Hingson ** 02:15 Well, we got introduced by Sheldon Lewis who also like I do works at accessiBe. And Sheldon had was interviewed on our podcast a long time ago. Well, we had a great conversation. And he's been kind enough to tell us about other people like you ever since. So, well. Let's start. Tell me a little bit about the early Katherine growing up or the early cat growing up, you know, a child and some of the early the early stuff about cat we should know. **Kat Magnoli ** 02:44 Okay, well, first off, I am the youngest of seven children. I'm the only person in my family with a disability. And that was an interesting way to grow up. Because, you know, I was kind of sheltered. My parents were both very protective of me. But my siblings, you know, they never treated me as if I was in a wheelchair growing up, they always wanted me to be a part of the games that they were playing. And they made sure that they adapted it to my needs. They never were like, oh, you can't do this, you know. And so I felt very accepted in that way. And I also at the time, was going to a school just for children with disabilities. So I really never experienced at a young age, you know, any form of bullying or discrimination or anything like that. That is until I was eight years old. And I was put into the public school district in a small town in New York called Yorktown Heights. And they, you know, I was the only person with a disability throughout all my schooling. And that was when I really got to see how people without a disability, treated those with a treated those of us with a disability. I went through a lot of bullying, a lot of ostracizing a lot of, you know, oh, you're a liability. So you can't come on this class trip. Or you can't come on the camping trip or not being invited to birthday parties. actually remember this one story that you know, my neighbor had a birthday party, and it's a pool party and I wasn't invited. And she was in my class. And all my classmates were there and so they actually saw that I live next door and they walked over to my house. And the mother of the little girl was like What's going on? Like, Why did everyone leave? And my mom was like, Well, you didn't invite my daughter. So now her classmates are coming to say hello. And the mother tried to fix the situation by inviting me. And my mom was like, No, like you're not going. So that's one of the stories that I like to tell because it shows how great of a mom I have. And speaking of my mom, I just want to tell you this one other story about her. You know, as I said, I grew up in a large family, and I was the only one with a disability in my family. And I asked her why that was. And she told me this beautiful story about the spine being like a magical tree. And she told me that it had these little magical leaves called nerves that help you move your arms and legs, and I'm missing some of my magical leaves. But then she went on to say that even though I can't walk, that I can do anything else that I put my mind to. So that just gives you a little bit of a glimpse of the good and the bad of my earlier years. So **Michael Hingson ** 06:13 to skip around a little bit. Oh, I don't know how long ago. How long ago was that? Roughly? That may be giving away your age, but I'll ask anyway. **Kat Magnoli ** 06:24 How long ago was which one? Well, **Michael Hingson ** 06:29 so sorry. So let me do it this way. How old are you? **Kat Magnoli ** 06:34 I am 39 years. Okay. **Michael Hingson ** 06:37 Okay, great. Yeah, so, so now, so the birthday party and all that stuff took place? Roughly 30 years ago, **Kat Magnoli ** 06:45 about 30 years ago. Okay. So here's, here's **Michael Hingson ** 06:49 the question. Do you think that that kind of behavior would still be exhibited today? **Kat Magnoli ** 07:00 Um, I can't speak for all parents. So I don't know. But I can say this. I think that there's a really wonderful movement going on in society, where the media, and literature and all that is really starting to embrace the disability community more than they did, let's say, 30 years ago? No, I think that there's more education about the disability community out there. And I think that that's helping make bullying maybe less, hopefully, I mean, I don't know, I can't really say, Yeah, **Michael Hingson ** 07:45 you know, I think things from my perspective, I think things are better, but, and the but is that it's all about education. And there are a lot of people who still really haven't decided that disabilities are not something that makes us less than they are. And so it does depend on the individual. I think that there has been some progress. But we have, I think, a long way to go. Yes, I agree. And so that's something that we we have to work on. I know that as a person who is blind, I continue to see lots of challenges. And I think that the reality is that we emphasize eyesight, so much in our lives, that we view people who, who don't have eyesight, or whose eyesight is less than perfect. We view those people as less than we are, we still haven't dropped the expression visually impaired. And that's got so many negative connotations, because visually, we're not different, because we're blind. But the professionals adopted that long time ago. And we continue to see impaired, well, we're not impaired, you know, you're not mobility impaired, you use a wheelchair, you're in a wheelchair. But as your mom pointed out, that doesn't make you impaired or less than anyone else. Because while you can't walk, there are short people who can't do the things that taller people can do. And even tall people can't necessarily do all the things in the same easy way that some short people can do because they have to fit into smaller places sometimes, or whatever the case happens to be. And what we don't really understand is that disability is not a lack of ability, but rather it's a characteristic. And we all have it in one way or another. **Kat Magnoli ** 09:39 I am 100% on board with what you're saying. And another thing that I like to reiterate, it's kind of in the same sense of what you're saying is that the disability community is actually a community that anyone can join at any time because someone can wake up and they can be blind or someone can wake up and get into an accident, and then be in a wheelchair or someone can go dead, you know, maybe listening to too much loud music throughout their life, whatever the case may be it or just like a gradual thing that happens as you get older, you know. And so it's it's not something that's so taboo as maybe society has made it out to be throughout the years, because it really is like the most common thing that it's it's the only minority that anyone can join, you know? **Michael Hingson ** 10:39 Yeah. Well, and I would submit actually, something slightly different. I agree with you. But what I also would say is that the reality is, every person with eyesight has a disability. And I've talked about it on this podcast before, the issue is that in 1878, Thomas Edison invented the electric light bulb. While Why did he do that? He did that so that people with eyesight would have light on demand and would be able to function when it would otherwise be dark at night, or whatever. And so over the years, we've put so much emphasis on developing the technology, that light is around us pretty much all the time. But the but the other part about it is until it's not like if you're in a building, and there's a power failure, you have to go scrambling whoever you are for a phone or a flashlight or something to turn on the light. And if you can't find one, you're in a generally a world of hurt, because of the fact that it's dark, and you can't see what to do. So every sighted person has the disability of being light dependent, whether they like it or not. And technology has mostly covered it up. But it doesn't change the fact that the disability is still there. We just as a society don't like to acknowledge that, because light is so readily available most of the time. **Kat Magnoli ** 12:04 That is fascinating. I never really even thought of that. I definitely got Wow, that's amazing. See, that proves my point that you don't even have to go through an accident or anything that I just mentioned, like, just take away. Something that helps you enhance that sense. And that sense is no longer there. So it's really interesting what you just said, I'm fascinated by it, **Michael Hingson ** 12:37 we've got to get to the point where we recognize that disability does not mean a lack of ability. You know, people say well, but disability starts with this well, so does discretion. So it is it mean, a lack of question, whatever that is, or, you know, any number of things just doesn't need to be a negative term. And we've got to grow up to recognize that as a as a society, I understand that people with eyesight do have advantages, in some ways, because the world is being created around what they have access to that a lot of us don't, but that doesn't mean that we're less than they, whether it's a wheelchair or whatever, **Kat Magnoli ** 13:19 of course, of course, 100%. And actually, just to keep going on this topic for a second, I read an amazing book called no pity. I don't know if you've ever heard of it. **Michael Hingson ** 13:32 I haven't. But that's okay, go here. One of the things **Kat Magnoli ** 13:36 that they stress in the story, and it's not only a story, it's actually like a it's a book that talks about the entire history of the disability rights movement. And one of the things that they stressed in it is that disability no longer exists when you make things accessible to us. So for example, me, if, if there's a ramp, and there's a button for the door, I no longer have a disability because I can get into any building, if those things make it accessible for me. For for instance, for you, if there's Braille, your disability goes away, because you're able to understand and communicate in a in a better way by being able to read, you know, the bumps, and the Braille signage. So you can know where to go in a building, let's say like the elevator. And so I think that that's a really cool concept that disability is kind of like perception only because if you make the world more accessible, then no one really has a disability. That's the flip side of it all. And **Michael Hingson ** 15:02 that's the real point. Right? Yeah. Yeah. And that's and that's that way. So are you, quadriplegic or paraplegic? paraplegic? So So you see, you can hit people upside the head if they start getting too and setting them up people with disabilities write to you. **Kat Magnoli ** 15:23 I tried to be very nice and to educate first. Yeah. But if they don't listen, then I might have to run over a tower to my **Michael Hingson ** 15:33 wife, when sometimes we've gone to places even like Disneyland, although it's been a while. Got so very frustrated, because being in a chair, and she also was a para. We could be talking and sitting somewhere or just walking along and people just jump over the foot rests rather than having the consideration to walk around. Because they're in such a hurry to get somewhere. People are people are amazing. **Kat Magnoli ** 16:00 Yeah, yeah, I that's one of my biggest pet peeves. Another one is people just wheeling me up a ramp, like as I'm wheeling, and then someone of total stranger will come up behind me and think that they're doing a kind gesture. Yeah. And you start pushing me up the ramp, and it's scary, it startles me, you know, it scares me. So I always flip it out, you know, to the other side, where I'm like, How would someone feel if I just like started pushing them on their backside, and like toiling them to essentially walk faster, you know, like, that's not very nice, I wouldn't be able to do that I'd probably get arrested if I did that. Because you can't just put your hands on someone's backside and start busting them. So it's the same concept, people think that they're doing something nice, or that they're, you know, you know, not bothering us by like asking us to move over or whatever, I'd rather you say, excuse me, then push me or jump over me. You know, I'd rather you acknowledge me and be like, Excuse me, I need to get through, like, find a way to do it? Or **Michael Hingson ** 17:13 do you need help? I'd be glad to push you up the ramp if you would like I mean, but the point is to ask **Kat Magnoli ** 17:19 exactly the point is to ask, it's really not that hard. No, **Michael Hingson ** 17:24 it's not that hard at all. So I'm curious. What do you think of the truncated domes, all the dots that go across driveways, and so on to warn people when you're at the bottom of a ramp or, or going into a street? They've put those out saying blind people need to have those warnings and so on? What do you think of that as a person in a wheelchair? **Kat Magnoli ** 17:53 Well, let me say this, if it is good for people with blindness, then I think it's necessary. However, for a person with a disability. Again, it can be kind of a hazard almost, I will say, because, let's say one of my wheels, you know, gets stuck in between one of the bumps, I could fall forward, if it's a quarterly made structure, you know, I could fall forward. So for me, it can sometimes be a hazard. And it has been in the past. However, if it's good for people with blindness, then I'm all for it. And I'm accepting of it. And that's all that I'm gonna say about it. **Michael Hingson ** 18:40 The the place where it becomes valuable is not so much on ramps, or even in train stations, because if a blind person is using a cane properly, they'll be able to detect the edge of a train well of a train track or if the tracks are dropped down, like in a lot of subway stations or whatever. The the comment is where you have to have it so blind people know that they're coming to the edge. That's what the cane does. Although a lot of people don't necessarily use their canes well, so the compromise was to put those those dots in, but I know my wife hated them because it just shook her violently every time we went over them. **Kat Magnoli ** 19:30 Yeah, I definitely have noticed with my friends who have spinal cord injury that tend to have spasms below the waist, that it does trigger, you know, well for her more shook her neck and very sad and you know, yeah, well, it's **Michael Hingson ** 19:48 it's it's one of those things that that there are places where where they can help if you've got a very flat curb, not even a curb cut or a ramp but you It's such a gradual ramp down that you don't really notice it and the curb is, or the entrance to the street is flat so that you don't really have a noticeable demarcation between the sidewalk and the street. There is a place where it's relevant to put something but yeah, it's it's interesting, everyone has different challenges and some people love the the dots, and some people don't. And it's always a matter of trying to figure out the best way to make it as accessible and usable by the most or by most everyone and people have to adopt and adapt to different ways of doing stuff. **Kat Magnoli ** 20:40 Well, I'm actually going to flip the question and ask you something now if that's okay. **Michael Hingson ** 20:47 Oh, sure. This is a conversation. **Kat Magnoli ** 20:51 What is your opinion about ramps as a person who's blind? Does it hinder you or help you in any kind of way, not affect you at all? Well, **Michael Hingson ** 21:02 if it's a ramp, that's why I'm mentioned the very flat curbs. So from from my perspective, I can go either way ramps or stairs. However, it is my belief that ramps are very important. So I don't mind at all having ramps, but I don't believe that ramps enhance my ability to walk around. Because I'll use a cane or a guide dog and I will go where I need to go. And if there's a ramp, it's fine. If there are stairs, that's fine. And I realized that stairs generally take up less room than ramps. But having been married to a lady in a wheelchair for 40 years, I totally value ramps and have never had a problem with ramps so ramps don't bother me at all. **Kat Magnoli ** 21:53 Okay, that's interesting. **Michael Hingson ** 21:57 So on I am a firm believer that that ramps need to be available not just in the back of a building or whatever, but they should be readily available. So that people in chairs are people who need ramps. people with strollers just older people can walk in the front entrance of a building just as easily as I can. Even though I can walk up the stairs, so I'm fine with ramps. **Kat Magnoli ** 22:27 Okay, well, thank you. That's, that's very interesting to hear. **Michael Hingson ** 22:31 So it is kind of one of the things that that we we all do deal with. But I think I'm what I'm really surprised that is and we watched. We watched my wife passed away last November. So it's just me now. But as I tell people, she's up there somewhere. And if I misbehave, I'm going to hear about it. So I gotta be a nice guy. **Kat Magnoli ** 22:56 Well, I'm so sorry for your loss. **Michael Hingson ** 22:58 Well, it's been 40 years. And as I say, the spirit sometimes moves faster than the body and her body just finally kind of gave out and it is what we have to deal with. But, you know, the, the other the other side of that is that, you know, I learned a lot from her and having 40 years of memories and marriages is a good thing. And it it helped broaden perspectives in a lot of different ways. So I certainly have no complaints about it. **Kat Magnoli ** 23:33 That is so beautiful. Oh my goodness, you're gonna make me cry. **Michael Hingson ** 23:39 Well, like I said, she's somewhere and if I misbehave, I'm going to hear about it. So I will, I will continue to just be a decent person and behave well. **Kat Magnoli ** 23:50 That's all. That's all that all of us can do. **Michael Hingson ** 23:54 Yeah, that's about all there is right? That's all we can do. Yeah. So tell me a little bit more about you. You grew up did you go to college? Yes, **Kat Magnoli ** 24:06 I did. I actually got my AAA degree. My associate's in arts degree for exceptional student education. I really wanted to be a teacher for children with disabilities. However due to my health that ended up not being the case. But I still have my degree which is great. **Michael Hingson ** 24:35 What do you think of the the terminology Exceptional Children? **Kat Magnoli ** 24:41 Um, I think a lot of the time we spend too much time nitpicking. Yeah. At terminology. I think whatever a person is comfortable with is very like subjective. Like there are some people that don't like People First language they don't like the term, people with disabilities, they like, disabled **Michael Hingson ** 25:07 disabled person. **Kat Magnoli ** 25:08 I personally do not I like people first language, I want to be seen as a person that has a disability. So I think it's just all it's very subjective. It's however you feel. But, you know, the school district felt like it was a better transition to go from special ed, or special education, to exceptional student education. **Michael Hingson ** 25:37 And, you know, the only thing I would say about that is that, and I agree with you about People First, by the way, but I also think that we have to look at terminology in the light of what is it conveyed to people about us, like I mentioned, visually impaired. The fact of the matter is that continues to promote the concept that we're less. So a much better term such as like, happens with people who are deaf, it's not deaf or hearing impaired, it's deaf or hard of hearing, and that is what the deaf community likes, with good reason. And so, visually impaired isn't nearly as progressive and as helpful attitudinally and socially as blind or low vision. And so I think there is some relevance to recognizing that terminology can be part of the problem, rather than always being part of the solution. **Kat Magnoli ** 26:40 I 100% agree. And that's why I think that as a person within the community, when someone approaches you, whether it's you or AI, it's our obligation to educate them and let them know how we want to be referred to. Because again, there might be some people in your community that don't mind the term visually impaired. Maybe that's how they refer to themselves. There are and there are. And so I again, I think it's really about how we educate others on how we want to be addressed. Well, **Michael Hingson ** 27:22 that's part of it. And the other part is, and I've had discussions with some people say, I don't I find visually impaired, I'm impaired, I'm visually impaired, until they think it through, or until somebody talks with him about it. And gets them to really explore what they're saying, when they say impaired, for example. And that's part of it. And so in the blindness world, we haven't grown up yet, nearly as much as, say, people who are deaf have in terms of not being hearing impaired, but rather hard of hearing. So the fact is there there are people who are blind, and I've had discussions with them who say, No, I'm visually impaired, and I point out the issue. And if I get them to think about it, they usually come back and say, I never thought about it that way. Just like we talked about earlier, every person on this planet has a disability. And the fact is that most people are light dependent. And that's his disability, too. **Kat Magnoli ** 28:30 That's so true. Yeah. And actually, it's interesting, because a few years ago, I had the privilege of making friends with a man named Daniel Ruis, who is a big advocate for the ADEA, which is, for all of you that might not know is the Americans with Disabilities Act law. And so he makes places accessible, so on and so on. And one day, we got into a discussion about the word handicap. And I never knew what that term actually means. And I don't know if you know, either. Maybe you do. But for all your listeners, I just want to say that handicap actually means hand in cat, which was, which is a symbol of saying that people with disabilities are needy, and we're beggars and we're, you know, it's just it has such a horrible connotation to it. So that's one term that I will not accept to be called. Whenever someone says, like, oh, handicap parking, I'm like, No, it's accessible parking. You know, like I make that's the only thing that I'm like a stickler on, is handicap and also crippled. I don't like the term cripples. I think that that is something that degrades me. Again, I go by people first language and that just really is, you know, the case for me. **Michael Hingson ** 29:57 Well, and I think it's a matter of of really people just accepting that we're as equal as they. And unfortunately, though some of the language doesn't necessarily imply that and that's what we really have to deal with, which is why anything that utilizes the word impaired is a problem. But people have to grow to deal with that in their own way. And that's something that we just will have to work on over time. And hopefully, people will come to recognize it is a problem, just like when we talk about race. You know, we talk about African Americans or our people who are black, as opposed to other terminology that nowadays, it is frowned upon to say that, in most cases, although black people sometimes use that terminology amongst themselves, but by the same token, we need to recognize that there are words that promote negative and less than stellar attitudes in a lot of different ways. So it's, it's a challenge. Well, **Kat Magnoli ** 31:11 going back to something I had said earlier, when you asked me Do I think that the same kind of incident would happen now in relation to you know, how I grew up? I think the more and more we are exposed in the media, in a positive light, through books, through movies, through TV, through songs, whatever the case may be, I think, through politics, I think that the world will kind of shift its perception, the more they see what we can do. **Michael Hingson ** 31:49 I agree. We need to be more involved in the conversation. And I think more people need to help bring us into the conversation and talk about us or talk with us. And it's a slow process, because changing a societal attitude like that is is not a simple thing. And is a is a challenge for a lot of people because they've grown up thinking something totally different. And now we're saying no, you really need to change that. That just doesn't happen overnight. **Kat Magnoli ** 32:24 Yeah, it's interesting when Coda won in the, in the Oscars, I asked my friend, same as Mark McGwire. how he felt about it, because he's a person living with deafness. And he was like, so I didn't win. He's like, I don't care. I thought it was like such a tremendous thing. The disability community and someone living with deafness was like, okay, you know, like, he didn't acknowledge it as like this huge thing as maybe I did. Well, but **Michael Hingson ** 33:03 I spoke. First thing, I spoke at a conference later that same year, a conference on inclusion here in California for one of the county departments of education, and had occasion to interact with several people who are very active in the deaf community. And of course, needless to say, they loved it. So, yeah, it's different for different people. Yeah, exactly. So you got an AAA degree, and then what did you go off and do with yourself. **Kat Magnoli ** 33:34 And then, like I mentioned, my, my health kind of took a turn for the worse that I had developed kidney failure and was on dialysis. And this was actually during the time that I was still going to school. So when you're studying to be a teacher, you have to do what's called clinical hours, which means that you go into a school and you kind of shadow the teacher, and you learn from her by interacting with the kids grading papers, doing things like that. And one of the places that I did this was at a school called cacher LD, which is a school for children within the autism spectrum, and other learning disabilities. And that's really what inspired me to become an advocate because one thing that I didn't mention earlier is that with all the bullying that I had endured at a young age, it kind of actually depleted the message of the magical tree for me, and made me feel like maybe there is something wrong with me. So when I got the chance to be around these kids with disabilities, and really see their inner strength and see how amazing they were, it helped me re accept my own disability at the age of 2420. 85 So that's when I started to think, Okay, if this teaching thing is not going to happen for me, because, you know, my health is not allowing me to dedicate the time that's needed for this, how else can I help the disability community? So one day, I'm sitting in a pool, and I'm noticing that there's two children who are quote, unquote, able bodied or non disabled, whatever term you like. And they were staring at me, they were trying to figure out how I got in the pool for my wheelchair. And one of the kids actually said that he felt sorry for me. I was so sad that he would feel sorry for me that it dawned on me how I could help be an advocate. And I thought, like, after much thinking, I was like, I want to educate children about disability, because they're the ones most curious about it. So how do I do this? And then I thought about something that I've always loved to do, which is write. And that's when I decided to write a children's book called The Adventures of cat girl, which is about a superhero in a wheelchair, and she helps kids who are being bullied. And **Michael Hingson ** 36:21 you've written several books now happened to as I recall, yes, **Kat Magnoli ** 36:25 there are four stories in the cat girl series, they each touch on a different kind of bullying. So we have bullying, children and wheelchairs, bullying children who are deaths, bullying children who are overweight and racial bullying. Those are the four topics that I cover in my cat girl series. And then I have another story called Pete, the private eye, who's actually a blind detective, and he uses his magical cane to help him solve mysteries of lost objects. **Michael Hingson ** 37:03 Hmm. Well, you know, all I have to say is that if you ever decide to do a picture book on the disability of politicians, don't worry, they deserve bullying. Just just I love that I love to tell people, I'm an equal opportunity abuser. We don't do politics on unstoppable mindset, because I'll pick on all of them. And rightfully so. But you know, but that's your voice, especially now is right. So do you, do you self publish? Or did you self publish? Or do you have a publisher for the books. **Kat Magnoli ** 37:44 So when it came to the adventures of cat girl series, I went through my grandparents, who at the time had owned an educational toy business called Dexter educational toys. And when I came to them with this idea of my book series, my grandfather was a little hesitant. But my grandmother jumped on the idea. And she really, you know, used her resources of a printing company that she was in affiliation was to help publish the book. And with Pete, the private eye, I used another company called Print ninja, they're in China. And they do a fabulous job with printing as well. **Michael Hingson ** 38:38 That's great. Do you have any other books coming out in the future? **Kat Magnoli ** 38:44 I hope so. I do have a lot of ideas. I have some crossover stories of cat girl and Pete, that I really would love to, you know, have them meet in this story and work together and use both her magical wheelchair and his magic cane. And just kind of have fun, you know? Maybe finding loss items for bullies. **Michael Hingson ** 39:09 Well, there you go. **Kat Magnoli ** 39:12 That can be the crossover story. **Michael Hingson ** 39:16 So you sent me several photos. I'm assuming some of those are the book covers. **Kat Magnoli ** 39:23 Yes, I did send you one photo that has all four cat girl. book covers plus the cat girl puppet. Threes **Michael Hingson ** 39:35 I ask is that all I see are titles that say like img something so I don't. I don't get a description. That's okay. But I'm glad you did because I would have asked you to send them if you hadn't. So that's great, because we want to make sure they get into the podcast notes and so on because I want other people to read the books needless to say, thank you. So that's kind of important to be able to do Who? But you know, so you've written them. So did you. So what did you do for a job along the way? Did you go into teaching? Did you start advocating? To to start your own company? What did you do? **Kat Magnoli ** 40:17 Well, first and foremost, my number one passion is my book. So I've dedicated a lot of the time of my advocacy, to reading to children and selling my books to schools, and at different events throughout Florida, and in other states. And then from there, because I did still have a desire to be a teacher, I did some tutoring for about a year to through a girl that I knew named soudha that I had met in college. So I did get to do some teaching, later on in my advocacy. And then, you know, as I grew as an advocate, different organizations started to reach out to me to do work with them. So for a while, I was working at the Center for Independent Living. And then I worked a little bit for ShakeAlert. Miami, which is a wonderful organization that helps people get with disabilities get the chance to go sailing, and kayaking and canoeing. And so I have had some, like, odd jobs here and there, but all have to do with disability and advocacy in some way. But my main focus is my books and public speaking. **Michael Hingson ** 41:36 You've definitely kept active. Yes. **Kat Magnoli ** 41:40 So calls me the Energizer Bunny, **Michael Hingson ** 41:43 that are you go? Well, so cat girl was in a wheelchair is in a wheelchair, right? **Kat Magnoli ** 41:50 Yes, she is. **Michael Hingson ** 41:51 So did you involve in any way in any of the books dealing with autism? I haven't you since you've had a lot of interest in that and exposure to it. I **Kat Magnoli ** 42:03 have not had the chance to write a story about autism yet. I really want because the children that started my journey into advocacy to fall into the autism spectrum. I want to be as sensitive and correct with it as possible. So I want to do more research and make sure that I do that immunity, that justice that it deserves when I write about it. **Michael Hingson ** 42:34 We've come a long way with autism. I know I've talked to several people on the podcast here who discovered that they were on this they say the Autism Autism Spectrum. But they discovered it in their 30s and in their 40s because we just didn't really know enough about it earlier on to recognize it and diagnose. **Kat Magnoli ** 42:56 Yeah, yeah. And to be honest, you know, sometimes parents are hesitant, even if there are clear day signs, you know that their child is in the autism spectrum. Sometimes parents can be hesitant to get that diagnosis, and then the person will make that decision later on in life to finally get the test that helps them you know, be diagnosed, right? **Michael Hingson ** 43:30 Or it just never came up. And they never no one ever thought about it. But yeah, it is a challenge. And I think that that's, uh, you bring up a good point in general that a lot of times, parents of children with disabilities don't really want to necessarily deal with it either. And it's mostly because they haven't themselves become educated. Your parents were fairly unusual. And same with mine. The doctors told them when it was discovered I was blind at the age of four months that they should just send me to a home and they said absolutely not. He can grow up to do whatever he chooses to do. But parents that are willing to really step out like that are much rarer than we would like to think sometimes. **Kat Magnoli ** 44:17 You know, I've been beyond fortunate to have the mother that I have, and I am grateful for every single day of my life. Because my mother was unaware of my having Spinal Bifida. throughout her entire pregnancy. It did not show up on any ultrasound that she had had during the nine months that she was carrying me and so when I was born, that was the day that her my father had found out that I indeed had spinal bifida. And she always tells me the story because as I mentioned, I'm the youngest of seven So she would read a lot of medical books every time she was pregnant. And she always skipped over Spinal Bifida. It was like, Oh, that'll never happen. And when it did happen, she didn't feel sorry for herself. She immediately when she came home from the hospital, you know, started doing research started calling different organizations like, March of Dimes, and all these other organizations that can help her, you know, raise me in the best way that she could. So I'm just very, very fortunate to have a mother like I do. Yeah, **Michael Hingson ** 45:37 she learned and she dealt with it. Which is, which is great. And presumably, she's still alive and, and helping. She's **Kat Magnoli ** 45:48 72 years old, and she's the one who's truly the Energizer Bunny. She's unstoppable. **Michael Hingson ** 45:56 Well, then we need to get her on the podcast. It's good to have unstoppable people on the podcast. **Kat Magnoli ** 46:01 She's actually sitting right next to me, but she's shaking her head know that Oh, come **Michael Hingson ** 46:06 on. **Kat Magnoli ** 46:10 Can you just wave? Please? **Michael Hingson ** 46:12 Nope, she's, well, I'm not gonna see your wave. So that's okay. **Kat Magnoli ** 46:18 To everyone. Same way? Yeah. **Michael Hingson ** 46:21 Well, it's neat to have a very supportive person. And that goes both ways. Because you give back and I'm sure help her and a lot of different ways. And just the very fact that you do what you do. Totally validates everything that she's done. **Kat Magnoli ** 46:40 Yeah, yeah, I actually just recently got a proclamation from Palmetto Bay, which is a neighboring town from Sunny Isles Beach. And they gave me a proclamation to honor Spinal Bifida Awareness Month, which is within the month of October, and my entire speech was dedicated to my mom, pretty much. I mean, I spoke for like four minutes, and three and a half of it was all about how wonderful she is. **Michael Hingson ** 47:17 And rightfully so no matter what she thinks or says. I agree. Like I said, moms who are and parents in general, who are that much risk takers are very rare in, at least in my experience, and from everything I've observed. So it's great to have that kind of really wonderful person in your life. So that's great. Now did even though you don't you haven't dealt with an autism an autistic person yet, in your books? Did they have some involvement in inspiring you to write the books, they **Kat Magnoli ** 47:59 were 100% the inspiration because while I was having the privilege to teach them, I saw how they were able to handle episodes of bullying far better than I did when I was a child. And it just was so inspiring to me. And I was like, wow, they have a strange that I did not have at 910 11 and 12 years old. And so it just really, it really did inspire me a lot. And they were part of the reason other than the two children in the, in the pool that had the curiosity about me. If I'd put it all together, it was like, a melting pot of inspiration for me, of why I wrote the adventures of capital. **Michael Hingson ** 48:47 I was at an IKEA store in California, once in a young man came up and said, I'm sorry. And I said, why? And he said, because you can't see. So I've experienced the same sort of thing that you did. And we could we didn't get to have much of a discussion about it because his mother dragged him away. Don't don't talk to that man. You know, you shouldn't do that. And people miss out on great education opportunities. Sometimes. Needless to say, **Kat Magnoli ** 49:13 yeah, yeah. And that's another thing that I really try to stress to parents that it's okay for your child to talk to me. It's okay. For them to ask what happened? It doesn't offend me if anything, them staring and the parent pulling them away is what offends me. Yeah, that that hurts my feelings more so then the child's coming up to me and asking me about my chair, you know, and asking me what happened. I would much rather that and so I've actually gotten into the habit of Do you mind like asking the parents do you mind if I tell your daughter or your son what happened? They seem to be Interested in my chair? Yeah. **Michael Hingson ** 50:04 And, you know, I, I experienced a lot of that or, and sometimes actually promote it to get conversation started. A lot of times I'll be walking somewhere with, with my guide dog and parents say oh, don't, don't, don't go up to that man, the dog might bite you and all that, and I'll stop. And I'll almost block their way and said, let me let me talk to you about what guide dogs are. And then I'll also take the harness off, which is the thing that the dogs love the most, because then they know they're not working. And the last thing they want to do is to avoid getting attention, especially from kids. So we get lots of opportunities. And when I go to speak to schools, it's always fun after the speech to take the harness off and let the kids come up. And the dogs have figured out that if they lay down and stretch out every which way they can, as far as they can, and maximize petting space, they'll get more kids to pay attention to them, and they love it. **Kat Magnoli ** 51:06 Oh, that's so cool. Yeah, they, **Michael Hingson ** 51:09 they enjoy it a lot. So it's fun to do. That's wonderful. So do you know you've you've started your own organizations to help with advocacy, right? **Kat Magnoli ** 51:23 Yes, I, within the last two and a half years started, capital and friends Inc. It is a 501 C three that just helps educate people about the importance of inclusion through literature and my public speaking. And it just gives me a chance to reach a larger audience. **Michael Hingson ** 51:48 How far have you traveled to be involved in doing speeches and do public speaking, **Kat Magnoli ** 51:52 I actually went to the American Association school for children who are deaf. And that was in Atlanta. And it was really, really amazing. It was such an incredible experience. All the kids were signing their questions to me, which unfortunately, I don't know, sign language. So there was an interpreter there. But it was just such an amazing experience that I never forget that and I'm so grateful to have done. And I also got to go to New York where unfortunately, I couldn't be at the school because it was during like COVID regulations still. But I did a zoom session for a school in the district that I grew up in, which is Putnam Valley School District. So that was really cool to be able to do. And I've actually done that two times since then, where I've done zoom sessions for them. So I've been able to reach different schools in different states as well as make a pretty good impact in in my community as well. Well, **Michael Hingson ** 53:14 it's, I think, extremely important for us to recognize that one of the best things that we can do is to help teach and educate and I didn't tell you this, but when I was in college, I also went through the University of California, Irvine. College of teaching, so I have my secondary teaching credential as well. So I, I never did teach professionally as a teacher in that sense of the word. But I ended up being very involved in sales. And I believe that that the best salespeople are also teachers as well, because that's what they should really be doing. Rather than trying to force a product on someone, they should be educating people, and helping them come to the best decision for whatever they need. And that's a philosophy that has worked really well. But I love teaching and after September 11. For me, I decided to take up a career of speaking and so on, because if I could help people move on from September 11 and teach them about blindness and disabilities and such then it was a worthwhile thing. And if it changes one person is all worthwhile. **Kat Magnoli ** 54:25 That's such an amazing advice and an amazing perspective. And I could not agree more. I mean, when I first started this, I was like, You know what, I want the whole crowd to hang on my every word. Now it's not so much like that. For me. I just get so excited when I can lock eyes with one child, or one person in the crowd and I know that they're really paying attention and they're really being impacted by either my the stories that I've written or my personal story, whatever is resonating with them is, is so important to me. **Michael Hingson ** 55:07 What's the most interesting question that any child has asked you when you've spoken like that? Um, we all have those stories, I'm sure. **Kat Magnoli ** 55:21 I feel like they ask the same questions over and over again, no matter where I am, which is always, how do you get up in the bed? Like, out of bed in the morning? How do you brush your teeth? How do you take a shower? How do you get in and out of the car? How do you do these things? And I'm just so those kinds of questions I find to be the most fun to answer. The one that I think is so important. Let me rephrase that, because those are important questions to answer as well, because it's educating people about my daily life and how I get around from point A to point B. But the the subject matter that I find to be most interesting when they talk about it is when they start talking about episodes of bullying that they went through, and then we can start opening up that conversation. So yeah, yeah. Yeah. **Michael Hingson ** 56:23 Well, and and it's fun. I love speaking to children, because they are uninhibited. And they don't hesitate to ask questions. Once you start getting them engaged at all, they will, they will ask anything. And if we can have a session and the parents aren't around, it really works out a whole lot better, because they will, they will become engaged and they'll ask questions I remember. And I've talked about it here a couple of times, I spoke to a, an elementary school. And this third grade boy got up after I spoke, because I opened it for questions. And his question was, how do blind people have sex? So there you go. **Kat Magnoli ** 57:11 I have not been asked that by a child. But I have been asked by adults. Yeah. wanted to take me out on dates. **Michael Hingson ** 57:20 Well, there you go. Opportunity Knocks Well, for me when he asked that I am not dumb, right. I just said **Kat Magnoli ** 57:28 for the background noise. **Michael Hingson ** 57:29 That's okay. I I'm not done when I was asked that. I just said the same way everybody else does. And if you want to know more, go ask your parents because I wasn't going to get into that. **Kat Magnoli ** 57:39 Yes, that is a very smart answer. **Michael Hingson ** 57:45 But for as far as you you know, two guys wanted to take you out on on dates. There's opportunity, maybe? Yeah, **Kat Magnoli ** 57:51 I mean, when this was mostly in my 20s, where people wouldn't even ask my name before they asked, Can you have sex? I mean, I just was like, Hi, my name is Katherine. And yes, I can. **Michael Hingson ** 58:09 Yeah. And if you want to know more, that's a different story. Zach. Ah, people are interesting, aren't they? Yes. But you know, we we cope. And we, we learn. And hopefully we do get to help teach them. And that's what's really important about the whole thing. So tell me about winning Miss wheelchair Florida. **Kat Magnoli ** 58:38 It was really amazing. It was actually a funny story. Because I had been in the top three, two times before, I had gotten second runner up and first runner up. So the third year, I actually wasn't going to participate. I was like, okay, clearly, I'm not going to win. I'm just going to take a break from this. But the state coordinator actually reached out to me like a day before the application was due to be a contestant. And she was like, Why haven't I received your application? I'm like, oh, because I'm not doing it this year. She's like, Yes, you are, you have to do it. So I was like, Alright, fine, I'll do it. But if I lose again, like I'm never doing it again. So So I ended up going and it's an amazing weekend, where girls with all different physical disabilities come together. And we do workshops. We do you know, judging with it's just so amazing. And so I was really happy to be a part of it again. But I went into it not thinking that I was going to win or place in the top three or anything like that. So I went in with a different perspective of just enjoying the moment And that's interesting because I ended up enjoying it so much that I ended up Miss messing up my speech. And so I really thought I wasn't going to win. So when they announced the, you know, second runner up and first runner up, and I wasn't called, I was like, Okay, I didn't make it even to the top three. So when they said my name, my mouth dropped, and I started crying for like, a good five minutes. And I was trying to speak because they handed me the microphone. And I honestly couldn't even tell you what I said, because I was that shocked for wedding. And before they said my name, I actually looked at my mom in the crowd, and I shook my head. No, it's not me. And at the same time, one of the judges was looking up at me. And she was shaking her head, like, yes, it is you. And I was just so confused as to why she was smiling and shaking her head. So it was just an interesting situation. And then when I did when I got to meet the governor, the former governor, Rick Scott, I got to work alongside the mayor of sunny isles and the mayor of ball Harbor, which is another town and get more beaches accessible in my area. I got to work with the school district, which is Miami Dade school district to have activities for Disability Awareness Month and inclusion week, I had a podcast so it was a really, really busy time for me. And it was a lot of fun. I also got to do a lot of adventurous things. Like go to I fly, which is indoor skydiving, and I got to, you know, just do some really memorable things. **Michael Hingson ** 1:01:56 So did you do the indoor skydiving? Yes, I did. I would like to do that. I've never done it. I'm gonna have to go do it. Some I would love to do that. Yeah, **Kat Magnoli ** 1:02:05 it's really, really cool. It's a very interesting simulation of what skydiving would be like. **Michael Hingson ** 1:02:13 Yeah, I would like to do it sometime. I'll have to work that out. Well, so what's next for you? What are you doing? What are your plans? And where are you headed? What's your mindset in the world? **Kat Magnoli ** 1:02:26 Well, currently, I am doing a lot of things. It is Disability Awareness Month and awareness month. So I've been making a lot of videos on social media just talking about basically what we're talking about right now, which is all that we can do. So that's number one. That's that's part of what I'm doing. I'm also doing a lot of different events for my books, to have more of an outreach for them. I am part of the Christopher Reeve Foundation where I'm a regional champion for them, which means that I speak to senators within my state about different laws that the Christopher Reeve Foundation is trying to get passed. So that's that's basically what I'm doing. I'm also in addition to it being Disability Awareness Month and Spinal Bifida Awareness Month, it's also Domestic Violence Awareness Month, which, for whoever does not know people with disabilities are three times as likely to be victims of any kind of abuse. So myself, along with my mentor, Debbie beets are going to be partnering for a workshop with the Christopher Reeve Foundation will end of October, where we're going to be talking about the intersectionality of abuse and disability. Wow. **Michael Hingson ** 1:03:59 So you're definitely keeping busy no doubt about it. **Kat Magnoli ** 1:04:02 Yes. Oh, and one last thing. I am working currently with semi owls beach to get even more beaches accessible in my town. So that's the last thing that I'm doing. **Michael Hingson ** 1:04:16 Well, just one more thing, right? Yeah. Well, this has been a lot of fun if people want to reach out to you and maybe contact you learn more about what you're doing and so on. How can they do that? **Kat Magnoli ** 1:04:31 They can actually reach me through my website, kat girl and friends.com **Michael Hingson ** 1:04:37 Kat is k a t. Yes, **Kat Magnoli ** 1:04:39 Kat is K a t girl is G I R L and is spelled just as we know A N D friends f r i e n d s.com.com **Michael Hingson ** 1:04:52 Yeah, okay. Any other contact ways or things that people should know? They **Kat Magnoli ** 1:05:00 can also just email me at Kat that's also K A T Magnoli, m a g n o l i@gmail.com. **Michael Hingson ** 1:05:13 Wow, a Gmail address without any numbers in it. You must be the first one. Yeah, well, cat, this has been a lot of fun. And I want to just say right now that when you have more adventures and you have whenever you want to come back on and chat some more on unstoppable mindset, I would love to do it. So you just know you have an open invitation. We can talk about it at any time, but I really value you doing this and if you know of anyone else. And likewise, for any of you listening, if you know of anyone who we ought to have as a guest on unstoppable mindset. I'd love to hear about it. You can let me know Kat knows how to reach me but for all of you, just so you know, you can reach me at Michael M i c h a e l h i at accessibe A c c e s s i b e.com. Or go to our podcast page www dot Michael Hingson m i c h a e l h i n g s o n.com/podcast. And we'd love to hear from you love to hear what you think about the episode. And as I said, if you know of anyone that you think we ought to have as a guest, I definitely want to hear from you. We would appreciate you giving us a five star rating, we value your ratings very highly. And I really hope that you like the podcast enough to do that. So once once more, I want to thank you Kat for being here. I'm sorry, you were gonna say? No, **Kat Magnoli ** 1:06:38 I was gonna say thank you so much for having me, this has been such an amazing conversation. And I can think of so many people that I know who are advocates that would really shine on your show, really have such incredible stories to share. So I will be reaching out to some of them and encouraging them to reach out to you. Because I think that we all should come together and work together and share stories. I think that's the real way to educate and and build inclusion for the for the world. Last question that I have, when will this be airing. Um, it's **Michael Hingson ** 1:07:21 going to be a little while yet because we've got a number of podcasts that are out there, but we'll definitely be sending you an email, unless there's some need for you to to have it airing at a particular time. But it'll be a little while yet, but we'll keep you posted. Okay, **Kat Magnoli ** 1:07:37 great. Thank you so much. And I hope you guys have a great night **Michael Hingson ** 1:07:46 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

Lizette Ornelas Vazquez, Dirección de Administración del Grupo Tahona. Es egresada de la carrera de Comercio Internacional por la universidad #ITESO, en misma institución, cuenta con diferentes cursos y diplomados como lo son: Coaching para la vida, Inteligencia emocional y diplomado en desarrollo humano.   Asimismo cuenta con diplomado de Habilidades Gerenciales por #COPARMEX. En el periodo 2019-2022 fue invitada a formar parte del comité ejecutivo nacional de #CONACCA cómo comisionada de vinculación académica.  En 2023 egresó de #ADEA en #IPADE. Al egresar de su carrera universitaria, ingresa a trabajar a Mural de grupo reforma por tres años en el área administrativa, departamento de compras, donde tuvo la oportunidad de comenzar su desarrollo profesional. Actualmente trabaja en negocio familiar dedicados a comercializar cítricos, de la mano de sus padres y dos hermanos. Siendo parte de la tercera generación dedicada y vinculada a este negocio. Asimismo, en el área administrativa, forma parte de grupo TAHONA junto con 5 socios más, dedicados a comercializar y producir cítricos, como lo son: naranja, toronja, limón sin semilla y mandarina en temporada. #liderazgo #mujeres #agricultura #agrotitanes #campomexicano   Contacto:  Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lizette-ornelas-vázquez-578b5b297/  Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/grupotahona?mibextid=LQQJ4d

Learn how dental educators are working at the national level to assure that faculty are implementing learning science into practice. Dr. James Harrison, Associate Professor, University of Louisville School of Dentistry is engaged in a faculty micro credentialing program through the American Dental Education Association. There are important lessons here for all health science educators. Check out this link to the ADEA micro credentialing program. Do you have comments or questions about Faculty Feed? Contact us at FacFeed@louisville.edu. We look forward to hearing from you. --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/hscfacdev/message

The ADEA, or the Age Discrimination in Employment Act, is meant to protect older workers from disadvantages in job searching and while employed. Whether it's assumptions about technology skills or desires to see a longer tenure from a new hire, older people in the workforce face several hurdles that can result in discrimination allegations. In today's episode, Chuck and John go through three different scenarios where there were violations of the ADEA and how they could have been avoided. In the HR News segment, the team touches on the following topics and more:A social media post inciting hate crime and discrimination issues with the law in MichiganThe importance of keeping up with the official sortsQuestions that can be asked regarding service animalsThe impact of quality sleep on employeesSupport the showThe Ultimate Book of HR Checklists – Getting HR Right: Your Step-by-Step Reference for Avoiding Costly Mistakes. Go to HRChecklists.com (On sale - take $100 off ...only $79 ) Certified and approved for 3 SHRM Recertification Credits.Join the HR Team of One Community on Facebook or visit TeamAtHRstories.com and sign up for emails so you can be the first to know about new things we have coming up.You can also follow us on Instagram and TikTok at @HRstoriesPodcast Don't forget to rate our podcast, it really helps other people find it!Do you have a situation or topic you'd like the team to discuss? Are you interested in having Chuck or John talk to your team or Emcee your event? You can reach the Team at TheTeam@HRstoriesPodcast.com for suggestions and inquiries.The viewpoints expressed by the characters in the stories are not necessarily that of The Team at HR Stories. The stories are shared to present various, real-world scenarios and share how they were handled by policy and, at times, law. Chuck and John are not lawyers and always recommend working with an employment lawyer to address concerns.

As a part of the series spotlighting Nonprofit HR's 2023 Social Impact Women to Watch Finalists, Atokatha Ashmond Brew, Managing Director for Marketing & Strategic Communication for Nonprofit HR, sits down with Dr. Karen West, President & CEO of the American Dental Education Association (ADEA), for a conversation about her organization and incredible contributions to the sector! Tune in to hear Karen detail: The importance of collaboration in delivering impact How she champions professional education and works to provide those opportunities for her staff The impact of AI developments on her organization's work Her advice to women to “be bold and be brave”in the face of opportunity Learn more about our 2023 Social Impact Women to Watch finalists. See the full list here and ways they are contributing to their organization, the sector and communities! To learn more about the ADEA, visit www.adea.org.

Although stereotypes about older people proliferate in our culture, employers are not supposed to rely on them when making workplace decisions. Several state and federal laws prohibit employers from discriminating against employees based on age, gender, or race. Still, age and other forms of bias are prevalent in tech and other industries. What protection do older workers have? What exactly does the ADEA (Age Discrimination in Employment Act) say about age discrimination?Today, I have Jennie Woltz and Benjamin Folkinshteyn from Woltz & Folkinshteyn, PC, and they are here to tell you all about the law. They explain the ever-changing labor and employment laws, especially those dealing with older workers in the tech industry. Join us as we discuss the legal rights of employees and applicants over 40 (or even younger). If you are wary about being subjected to age bias or have experienced discrimination because of age, gender, or race, you definitely want to know your rights and options."The best place to be old in tech is when you start your own company."- Jennie WoltzIn This Episode:-What are the protections for people over 40 in any industry in the US?-What do you need for an age discrimination case to be successful?-What do statistics show regarding age discrimination vs. race or gender discrimination cases? Why is there a higher burden of proof for age discrimination cases?-What are the limitations of the ADEA?-Exclusionary language in advertisements that discourages older applicants-What does the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission report say about diversity in tech?-What are the legal rights of employees over 40 worried about being laid off or recently laid off, possibly because of age?-How would you handle a situation where you got laid off and saw someone markedly younger taking over your previous job? Can that be considered age discrimination?-Does the law also apply to applicants? What rights do applicants have to protect themselves from age, gender, or race discrimination?-What can people in tech over 40 do to protect themselves from age bias as they stay employed in their companies?And much more.Resources:-The Age Discrimination in Employment Act of 1967 - https://www.eeoc.gov/statutes/age-discrimination-employment-act-1967-EEOC 2014 Diversity in High Tech report - https://www.eeoc.gov/special-report/diversity-high-techConnect with Woltz & Folkinshteyn, PC:-Website: https://wfpclaw.com/-Jennie Woltz LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jennie-woltz-6292471a/-Benjamin Folkinshteyn LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/benjamin-folkinshteyn-8b9731103/Connect with Maureen Clough:-Instagram: @itgetslateearly - https://www.instagram.com/itgetslateearly/-YouTube:

In this episode Lisa sits down with Dr. Karen West, President & CEO of The American Dental Education Association, to discuss the organization's priorities following the pandemic, how they continue to evolve their approach to hybrid/remote work, and how the organization is navigating the EDIJ space in terms of diversifying their leadership team, assessing currenting teachings and more! In this episode, you'll here: How her leadership priorities of caring and listening has been actualized to shape the culture of the organization to be open, inclusive and collaborative  How the organization structured their hybrid work model based on employee feedback Why improving communication has been a focus for the organization to build connection, break down silos and stay on track with its strategic plan About ADEA ADEA is the sole national organization representing academic dentistry. Its members include all 80 U.S. and Canadian dental schools, more than 800 allied and advanced dental education programs, more than 55 corporations and approximately 15,000 individuals. Its mission is to lead and support the health professions community in preparing future-ready oral health professionals. Learn more about ADEA on their website.  About Karen Dr. Karen P. West received her undergraduate degree from the University of Louisville in 1977 and is a 1982 graduate of the University of Louisville School of Dentistry where she received her Doctor of Dental Medicine degree. She completed a General Practice Residency at the Medical College of Georgia in 1983 and was a 1992 graduate of the University of South Carolina School of Public Health where she received her MPH degree in Health Administration. On July 1, 2019, Dr. West became the President and CEO of the American Dental Education Association headquartered in Washington, D.C. Read more about Karen. About Lisa Driven to serve the often-overlooked people management needs for the social impact sector, Lisa set out to build a market where one didn't exist. She founded Nonprofit HR, the leading talent management firm in the country that works exclusively with the nonprofit sector. Read Lisa's full bio. About Switch The Switch offers access to Nonprofit HR's talent management knowledge presented by our expert consultants, media partners, and guests from across the social impact sector. For over 20 years, Nonprofit HR has produced content that illuminates critical, timely and insightful knowledge for leaders of social impact organizations. Insights from this podcast shine light on the full talent management lifecycle, from employee attraction to organizational culture, engagement, performance management and retention.  

On August 19th of last year in Episode 50 of Unstoppable Mindset we all got to hear an Interview with a brand expert, Ben Baker who was introduced to me by a colleague. The circle now continues as this time I get to talk to Catherine Altman Morgan who was suggested as a podcast by, you guessed it, Ben Baker. Catherine is an author; coach and we all get to hear what else. She grew up in New York City. She lived two years in North Carolina and then moved back North to New Jersey. She attended Vassar College and graduated with a B.A. degree in Psychology.   As a young person just out of college she took the suggestion of her father in Chicago and moved there to work at the Chicago Stock Exchange which she did for five years. She then moved back to New York because she realized that as a phone clerk at the stock exchange, and since she wasn't great at math, she wasn't going to make much money. Her next job was as a market analyst at a Technical Analysis software company in New York. She sold and supported trading systems since she knew how to talk to and work with stock traders. She did that for a bit then moved to a company back in Chicago doing the same kind of work. Through work with several firms she continued to do similar work as well as risk and flow analysis.   In 2010 she quit working for other companies and formed her own coaching firm, Point A to Point B Transitions Inc.  During our interview Catherine provides many insights about job searches, how to seek a job in today's technological world and how to interact with prospective employers. Lots of good information to hear whether or not you are looking for a job. Catherine shows us that we can choose to be unstoppable and move forward. Her advice is sound, but even more important, she is not just talk. Her coaching firm has helped many, job seekers or not. I hope you will check it out. Finally, just wait until you hear the news about her newly published book “This Isn't Working”. Not going to give the news away.   About the Guest:     Catherine Altman Morgan is an award-winning career transition expert who has been coaching clients and colleagues through job and life transitions for more than 20 years. Catherine is the author of the recently released book, This Isn't Working! Evolving the Way We Work to Decrease Stress, Anxiety, and Depression. She also speaks on topics related to career transition, workplace mental health, and small business/entrepreneurship.   Catherine graduated from Vassar College with a B.A. in Psychology. Before starting her consulting business in 2010, Point A to Point B Transitions Inc., she was employed by KPMG, Arthur Andersen, and Deloitte. She also has been a contractor for Protiviti, Navigant Consulting, and RGP.   With a background in job search, career transition tactics, and business strategy development, Catherine works with clients who have been laid off, believe their situation is unsustainable, or find that whatever they've been doing isn't working for them anymore.   Catherine's clients have frequently experienced a perfect storm of challenges in their life, including a layoff, health diagnosis, death in the family, divorce, extended time in transition, or financial collapse - often several at the same time. Catherine and her team work with the whole person to get them relaunched.   Links for Catherine:   Facebook business https://www.facebook.com/PointA.PointB Facebook personal https://www.facebook.com/tapcat LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/pointatopointb/ Twitter https://twitter.com/PointA_PointB Website https://www.pointatopointbtransitions.com/     About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app.   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.     Transcription Notes Michael Hingson  00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i  capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson  01:16 Well, hello, once again, I'm really glad you're here to attend and listen to another episode of unstoppable mindset. Today, we get to interview Catherine Morgan and I met Catherine through another guest that we had on the podcast some time ago, Ben Baker. And Ben said you ought to talk to Catherine and we chatted and it just seemed like it made good sense to bring Catherine on and she's got some new news to share with us in the course of the day. But Catherine is an author. She's a speaker, she does a lot of different kinds of things in terms of coaching and teaching. And we'll get to all that. So Catherine, really, I really appreciate you being here and welcome to unstoppable mindset.   Catherine Morgan  02:06 Thank you so much for having me, Michael.   Michael Hingson  02:10 It's a pleasure to have you here. Well, let's start. Like I always like to. I got it from an Alice in Wonderland TV show once at the beginning. So tell us about you growing up and a little bit just about your life and, and all that and how you got to where you are, or at least got to somewhere?   Catherine Morgan  02:29 Sure. Well, I started my early childhood in New York City. Very, very happy city girl. I was there till I was about 10. And then we had a little detour to Blowing Rock North Carolina, which couldn't have been further from New York City for this girl, who was a little shock to the system. After that, I spent Middle School in high school in the middle of New Jersey near Morris town, which was your very typical suburban existence. We walked everywhere. We rode bikes, the everybody had to come home when the ackermans rang their bell for dinner like we were free range children back then. So it was, you know, sort of the normal American upbringing in the 70s.   Michael Hingson  03:23 Okay, so how long were you in Carolina?   Catherine Morgan  03:28 We were just in Blowing Rock for a year and a half, two years. I don't remember. It's kind of a blur. It was. It was lovely. I mean, this so stunningly beautiful there. But yeah, the school system from going from a private, very, very small private school with 24 kids per grade to four classes per grade of 24 kids. Each was a little bit of an adjustment for me.   Michael Hingson  03:57 You survived though.   Catherine Morgan  03:59 Yeah, I came out and I did. I was a good student. I did well in middle school in high school and I went to Vassar College, which when I was looking at colleges, I applied to a bunch of them but faster was the only school I wanted to go to and conveniently they agreed that they wanted to have me   Michael Hingson  04:19 well that worked out well. So but when you left Blowing Rock Where did you guys go   Catherine Morgan  04:26 to Mendham New Jersey outside of Morris town in the middle of the state.   Michael Hingson  04:31 Right. So what took you to North Carolina in the first place that job for your one of your parents or what?   Catherine Morgan  04:38 Yeah, my my mother remarried and my stepfather was running a factory in just over the Tennessee border making one who's in what was he making, making men's pants   Michael Hingson  04:54 and then why New Jersey?   Catherine Morgan  04:58 Once again, we we follow To my stepfather's jobs he got a job in New York. And that was a very commutable city because of where how the trains worked. So a lot of people commuted into the city for their work,   Michael Hingson  05:14 I must say, from a transportation standpoint, and having lived in New Jersey for six years, taking the trains into the city, most every day, I very much got used to the trains and love the New Jersey Transit and train systems of New York City. My biggest challenges were getting, oftentimes, from the Westfield train station to home, we used what's called paratransit under the ADEA. And it was run by New Jersey Transit, but in separate sort of organization, and they were a times they were a little bit of a challenge. But mostly it worked out pretty well. And I was able to get to and from the train station without too much grief or difficulty. But getting on the trains and going into the city was always a wonderful thing, because you could go without needing to worry about driving or any of those kinds of things. And I know people who took Amtrak, even from Bucks County in Pennsylvania, and they would just be on the train for a couple of hours. And they form groups and they worked on the trains or they just had conversation groups and did other things on the train going to and from the city. So trains are wonderful things.   Catherine Morgan  06:30 I agree. I find them very relaxing my system sort of down levels and gets very relaxed on trains.   Michael Hingson  06:39 So what did you get your degree in from Vassar?   Catherine Morgan  06:43 Psychology?   Michael Hingson  06:44 Right? Okay. Did you go beyond a bachelor's degree?   Catherine Morgan  06:49 No, I didn't, I had always intended to go back and get a masters or something, you know, in my 40s. And that just isn't how my life ended up. So I do something that's sort of related. And certainly my interest is very sight, the psychological side of business, but I did not pursue further education.   Michael Hingson  07:16 So what did you do once you left faster?   Catherine Morgan  07:21 Well, like most people just out of college, if you're not going directly into law school, or med school or something, you have no idea what you're doing. And my father was out here in Chicago, and he was working on the Options Exchange. And he said, Well, why don't you come out here and try that since you don't know what else you want to do. And it was 1984 before the crash of 1987. And those three years, everybody was getting rich, and it was fast moving and fun and young, and just with open outcry was really a great place to work and in your 20s Let's just put it that way. And I had way too much fun that I'm not willing to share about.   Michael Hingson  08:11 And besides that, you went to a place that had great hotdogs and great pizza. Oh, yeah, gotta have your priorities, right?   Catherine Morgan  08:20 Absolutely.   Michael Hingson  08:22 I always love when I go to Chicago going to UNO's among other places and getting their deep dish pizza, my relatives who live there, always insist that we should go to UNO's and I have to agree it's pretty good. It's pretty good. So what did you do in Chicago then?   Catherine Morgan  08:40 So I was a phone clerk on the Options Exchange, which meant I was down there with 1000s of people screaming in the pits, executing orders I was on the side actually taking the orders and making sure that the runners got the orders out to the brokers in the crowd. It was it was it was crazy times back then I can't really describe the noise level and the close proximity because I had about a foot and a half of personal space where I was I had a foot and a half of desk standing right next to somebody else who had the other foot and a half and I had my order pad and my phone and that's it there was me a foot and a half of space ordered pad phone on the phone all day long taking orders recording orders it was it's kind of hard to explain. But it was it was fast paced and and like I said in your 20s Young and fun.   Michael Hingson  09:41 Yeah, it's it's probably fair to say you haven't lived until you've observed a stock trading for close up there. They are crazy places.   Catherine Morgan  09:54 Yes. Back in the day with open outcry the noise level we is just something you can't have Yeah, I guess if your staff, you've been to an arena show and somebody makes a shot and the crowd goes nuts, that was not an unusual noise level on the floor.   Michael Hingson  10:09 Yeah, constantly as opposed to just when somebody makes a shot. And there's just so much going on and so much activity and as you said, you're taking orders. And then people have to run them out to the traders, to the brokers and the people actually on the floor who do the things that they do. And the constant byplay, it's, it's an amazing place to be. It's a pretty incredible and last,   Catherine Morgan  10:34 yeah, it's really fast. So that was made an indelible impression on me.   Michael Hingson  10:41 Also, you didn't dare make a mistake, because one mistake could cost people incredible sums of money. I know I was in the business of selling the products that people used, and attached to their networks to backup data. So we sold the hardware. We were actually at a while we were out at Salomon Brothers at that time, they existed still in New Jersey, and Rutherford, and one of the people was talking to us about backups and the fact that if anything happened, at the trading floor in New York, they actually had two additional backup sites in Florida, somewhat underground, so hurricanes couldn't get to them. But they said, We don't dare even be down for a second, we would lose millions of dollars a second if we weren't able to stay up all the time. So the pressure had to be even for you incredible.   Catherine Morgan  11:41 Yes, it was. And obviously, we're humans and mistakes were made. But they were rectified quickly. And you made as few of them as possible.   Michael Hingson  11:53 Yeah. And the people who could deal with it and fix whatever needed to be fixed, could stay around, and the people who made too many mistakes would be gone. Quickly. But you still have your hearing. So you survived. Did you have any way to protect your hearing? Did you have a headset or anything?   Catherine Morgan  12:12 No, we didn't really think that back then there were some people who are on headsets? I did not. And my my hearing is a little wonky. It might have been the rock concerts, though. I can't necessarily blame the trading floor.   Michael Hingson  12:30 Okay. Well, so how long did you do that?   Catherine Morgan  12:35 Almost five years. Wow,   Michael Hingson  12:36 you did it for quite a while. What caused you to switch?   Catherine Morgan  12:41 Well, oddly enough, I'm not good at math. I have a really good memory. And I'm a really good parent. So I was an excellent phone clerk. But I was never going to make that jump to the next level because I'm terrible with math. So I left that. And I went to work for a technical analysis software firm in New York, selling or supporting trading systems and traders because I understood how to talk to these people. And they, they do need somebody who understands their personality types and their language. So I did quite well with that spent the next phase of my career in market data and trading systems and that sort of thing.   Michael Hingson  13:25 So did you do that from Chicago? Or did you move back to New York?   Catherine Morgan  13:29 I moved to New York, and stayed there for four years, and then came screaming back to Chicago and I left.   Michael Hingson  13:38 All right. So which place has better pizza Chicago or New York?   Catherine Morgan  13:43 They're utterly different. I almost think they should have different names. Yeah. They're utterly different. A New York just flat white pizza, is God's gift to pizza, in my opinion. And then, you know, there's the deep dish or the stuffed or the, I don't know, there's so many different kinds of Yeah.   Michael Hingson  14:04 Yeah. And they are different and it is unfair to compare the two. I agree. So we should just have both of them around. It's okay. So you went screaming back to Chicago, and did what   Catherine Morgan  14:21 I was still in the market data. I went to work for a company selling trading systems and market data. And I was selling down on this the CBOE floor and the Chicago Stock Exchange and the Merc so I was very comfortable going down and talking to traders on trading floors or going into trading rooms, which, you know, as a woman in especially in the ad, well, that was nowhere in the 90s. You know, I was the only woman in the room almost always throughout my career, because it was a back then quite a male dominated industry. Yeah.   Michael Hingson  15:02 So, you How did that work out for you, though? Did were there challenges? So you worked out pretty well. And it worked   Catherine Morgan  15:10 out really well, because I could often get in the appointment. And I, you know, they would try and do the rough and tumble thing with me. And I was just right there with them. So I was not once you worked on a trading floor, nobody can intimidate you. So you would they would, they would come at me. And, you know, because I looked really young and I was young. But they couldn't intimidate me. What kinds of   Michael Hingson  15:37 things that they tried to do.   Catherine Morgan  15:39 Um, I don't know, you know, just the coughing of a very successful trader, there's a little proving and posturing. And, you know, I, I made a million dollars yesterday and type of swagger II things like, you know, good to be you. Like, I hope your wife is happy, did you buy a boat, like I just wasn't faced with that sort of thing?   Michael Hingson  16:07 Yeah, it's all about intimidation. And, and they do have that kind of an ego. As I've mentioned, Salomon Brothers before, of course, the traders were even at Salomon considered the Cowboys. And I don't know whether there were any women or not, but and cow girls of Wall Street. And they did a lot of things that were risky, not in an illegal or wrong sense. But for example, they were one of the first to adopt Sun Microsystems products as workstations. And people really didn't know much about Unix, or whatever. And they're going, these are faster computers. And they, they were the, the innovators. So there's something not to be said, for having that ego, but for having the courage to explore, taking risks, and trying to improve a process, which also meant what they were trying to do is to get an edge up on their competitors from other companies, but they did it for a while.   Catherine Morgan  17:08 Exactly. Sun was the workstation of choice for all the risk management systems, it was the only one that really had the computing power needed for those types of systems that touched every aspect of the organization.   Michael Hingson  17:21 Right, because they were so fast and so versatile. And doing it in Unix gave them an operating system that had a lot of flexibility that that they needed. And I remember after September 11, we were involved with getting Wall Street back up and running. Because quantum made the backup products default standard, the ATL libraries and the super digital Linear Tape products and so on. So we, we saw a lot of things that people did, including IBM and sun cannibalizing employees, workstations, just to get them over two firms on Wall Street, so that within six days, they got Wall Street back up and running completely.   Catherine Morgan  18:06 Oh my gosh, that was a hot mess. We could spend the entire episode on that. But   Michael Hingson  18:11 yeah, yeah, I remember helping Morgan Stanley and they actually found a place over in Jersey City. They said they found a floor of the size of a football field. And they made that their new trading floor and they got workstations and everything. And within 36 hours, they had a complete replica of their original trading floor up and running, because we were able to give them the product so that they could restore all of their files, which is of course, one of the wisdoms of the Security Exchange Commission, you have to keep data for seven years. So all they had to do was to go to their site off site, get their tapes, bring them in and get everything set up. And when in fact they were all ready to go when Wall Street opened on the 17th of September, and all went pretty seamlessly. That's incredible. Yeah, it was an amazing feat to see all of that get done. But it's what they needed to do. And then that's, that's part of their skill sets. So well. So you you worked at all of that for a while and you continue to market and then what did you do? So you're in the 90s and partway through the 90s.   Catherine Morgan  19:25 Then I flipped so I spent about 15 years and in financial services doing what we just talked about. And then I went to work for the professional services firms. The consulting firms servicing the Financial Services vertical. So I worked for KPMG Arthur Andersen, Deloitte and working primarily with financial services but some other industries.   Michael Hingson  19:50 So when you say working with financial services, what does that mean?   Catherine Morgan  19:54 So I would go into one of the major exchanges and help with an opera ational risk assessment I would go to, you know, a large bank and look at the order flow process I would go to we did a bunch of random projects, our group was like a little SWAT team that mostly was focused on the capital markets, because that was our, where our senior manager had connections. So he was, that's where he was selling business.   Michael Hingson  20:27 And so what you were doing was to try to improve processes and make their their systems work more efficiently and more effectively.   Catherine Morgan  20:37 Some of that, and some litigation support work. So, you know, one company was suing their insurance company, or the insurance company was suing their client for whatever, and we would go in and dig through documents, but it was related to trading and to have pricing, you know, how they price the portfolio? So they needed people with expertise in the financial markets. No, I'm not a commodities person that was always on the equity side. But the people I worked with on my team were commodities experts say   Michael Hingson  21:15 it. Again, it's the kind of thing that has to be within the infrastructure of the system to help things work. Yes, but so you did that. And then what?   Catherine Morgan  21:32 Well, and then I decided that it was time to start my own business. And I was working with a coach. And my coach said, you know, that resume interview question coaching job search to help that you do to with friends and family and colleagues, you can get paid for that. And I saw,   Michael Hingson  21:56 what, what a concept,   Catherine Morgan  21:59 it hadn't occurred to me that that was a legit way to make a living and people would actually pay me for that service.   Michael Hingson  22:06 And so when did you start that?   Catherine Morgan  22:10 So in 2010, I left Deloitte in May. And I started point A to point B transitions, Inc, which is my company. And we have been helping professionals and financial services, professional services and technology, find new opportunities, great jobs, they love and not stop gap positions.   Michael Hingson  22:37 So as our technological infrastructure and environment grows, and so on, how is that really changed the whole process of job searches, looking for jobs, applying for jobs, and so on.   Catherine Morgan  22:54 And to some extent, it's everything old is new again, because the technology has made it so easy for people to apply for basically anybody to apply for anything, I jokingly call it spray and pray. But to spray and pray is there which means that employers are receiving, you know, tremendous amounts of applications, and may or may not, depending on the size of the organization, may or may not have the people in house to wade through this. So they may outsource it, which is the long way of saying that spray and pray mostly doesn't work. So it might work. If you're looking for a similar type of job in a similar industry, that's when the online application process is efficient. But you need to reach out to organizations, you need to reach out to people you need to get recommended in, you need to set up your profile. So you look magnetic for the type of role that you want. There's a lot of additional ways that you can source opportunities or be the one that's chosen. Because you have to keep in mind that depending on the size of the organization, someone is targeting, they may or may not have the responsibility of posting it publicly. So they may if they're a small organization who could not deal with the quantity of resumes they've received by posting a job publicly, they may just reach out to their network and say, Hey, we're hiring a sales manager, hey, we're hiring a marketing director, hey, we're hiring an intern and good people, no good people, and they'll they'll fill it that way. So you have to make sure that your top of mind for people so that if opportunities are uncovered, somebody thinks of you and sends it your way.   Michael Hingson  24:56 So in a sense, the process overall really hasn't changed.   Catherine Morgan  25:03 That's where I was going with SES, the technology has helped. And but the people who are going who are looking to make bigger changes, who are not just round peg, round hole candidates need to make the extra effort to reach out and find people touch people follow companies interact with companies cold, do cold outreach, those are the people who get good results.   Michael Hingson  25:31 And the advantage of technology is, it makes it easier to reach out, you don't have to put a stamp on an envelope and send it somewhere. Now you can do an email, but you also have to put the appropriate efforts into it to make sure that what you send will be seen.   Catherine Morgan  25:55 Yes, exactly. You have to make sure that you're relevant to the person that you're reaching out to. So it's not, hey, I have all this experience data. Why should they care? Yes, you're a leader. Like all of us, we're overwhelmed. We have a bunch of people reaching out for things. Why should someone care? Why are you the right candidate? Why are you interested? Why is are you a great fit for this position. So you always have to make sure you're positioning it for why the other person should care, because they're also busy, and they don't know you. So you have to, you have to make it seem like you're worth their time.   Michael Hingson  26:40 Yeah, it's, again, it's no different job interviews are sales presentations, by any standard by any definition. And so you have to learn to be the best at selling yourself. Otherwise, you're going to be left behind. And that's not a bad thing, because it's all about you looking at yourself and realizing what you can do. But it also means you have to research who you're applying to, to make sure that that you are a good fit. And again, that's not different than it used to be. It's just that now, there's so many ways to perhaps make that easier to do if you do it, right.   Catherine Morgan  27:19 Yes, I completely agree with that. But there's a bunch of people who just heard that and when act sales. So let me let me give you a door in so it sounds a little more doable and a little less scary. The way someone who comes to me and says, I don't feel comfortable talking about myself, I'm not positioning myself well. And I'll say, Well, if you don't do it, nobody's going to do it. So it's your job to present yourself as the best candidate, you're giving them the information, they need to see that you are highly qualified, and a strong candidate. If you do not present them with that information, you are doing them and subsequently you a disservice. Yeah. So if I just say you're presenting the information about your skills, why you're excited about the opportunity, why you're going to hit the ground running, why you've done something similar or you can come up to speed quickly. You need to do that so that they have the information they need to make the right decision that you are the right candidate or not.   Michael Hingson  28:39 Right. And I appreciate that. A lot of people Miko IQ sales. The problem is that the sales industry oftentimes hasn't done the right thing to teach people what sales is all about. Because real salespeople, good salespeople, and I come from a sales background. Real people do all the kinds of preparations that you're talking about. But also, the better salespeople know that, ultimately, their teachers and advisors and counselors and they look for what the customer if you will, or in this case, the person looking at job applications need and then have to make the decision about how and if they can make a presentation that will work. And it's also important and I've done it on a number of occasions and selling products, you have to look at will my product work? Will my product do what the customer needs because if it won't, I'll be doing everyone more of a disservice by trying to convince them to buy something that won't work. So again, I take a different view of sales and probably a lot of people do but it still is the real right way to do it.   Catherine Morgan  29:56 I completely agree and an unhappy cause Sturmer is burdensome to the organization and a reputation risk.   Michael Hingson  30:04 Yeah. And and people will hear about it if you do that kind of thing no matter who you are. Because even though there's a lot of technology, and there are a lot of people out there looking for applicants, ultimately, in any given industry, the network is relatively small, and people will hear about it if you don't do it, right.   Catherine Morgan  30:28 That was my experience, the Chicago trading community is very small. Miss rep, presenting our data on AI, you would have big problems.   Michael Hingson  30:40 I know as a person who happens to be blind, the other factor that we oftentimes see is though, the prejudice that exists on the part of people looking for employees or people to fill jobs, oh, you're blind, you can't possibly do that. How are you going to get to work. And today, we still see that kind of thing. But it used to be that it was probably even worse. And I know that oftentimes, I would debate do I say I'm even blind in a cover letter to go with a resume. Because if I didn't say I was blind, I might get a call back, the odds would be about the same as for anyone else. But if I did say it, I could probably be pretty much guaranteed I wouldn't even get a response. And there are so many ways to still do that today. And it still happens to a great degree, because the unemployment rate for persons who are employable with disabilities is still in the 65 to 70% range. So we tend not to really be too excited when we hear an unemployment rate of 3.5%. Because we know how hard it is for us, and how few of us actually get hired to, to do a job. And, and so the prejudices are still there. And so then, for me, what i i Come back to as a default is something I learned in a Dale Carnegie sales course, you have to turn that perceived liability into an asset, which if you do it, right also gains you a lot more attraction and a lot more likelihood of visibility with excuse me with the the potential people who are looking to to fill a position. And so for me, in a sales position, what I would say is, hey, look, I sell 24 hours a day to convince people to let me buy a house or fly on an airplane with my guide dog or even go grocery shopping. So do you want to hire somebody who just comes in for a few hours every day and sells? Or do you want to hire somebody who truly understands sales for the science and art that it is, and who sells 24 hours a day as a way of life? And that that actually got me a job interview and hired. And it because it worked? And it's true. It also separates you from virtually everyone else?   Catherine Morgan  33:11 Yeah, it gets you it makes you memorable, which in some cases is half the battle. How do you distinguish yourself as a piece of paper? Yeah, you know, I've had, I've had a similar situation with some clients who had Ms. And had summers obvious tremors and walked with a cane. So my suggestion to them was to just answer the question upfront, because what the employer really cared about is can you do your job? Is your your physical, you know, I can see the tremors? Is that going to affect your ability to do your work? And to just answer it flat out? Because that's what they're thinking? Like, it's the elephant in the room. Just talk to it?   Michael Hingson  33:58 Absolutely. And, and for me, the prejudice runs very deep, because the presumption is you're blind, you just can't do it. In fact, I went on an interview, and went by bus up to Los Angeles from where I lived at the time, and deliberately went on my own to the interview, because I didn't want someone driving me there. And the first question, even after all, that was, well, how are you going to get to work? So well, and I got that, right. So the answer is, hey, if I need to move closer, that's my responsibility. If you hire me, I need to be able to be here. And I recognize that I will make that happen. And I've proved or should have been able to prove to you today that I can do it. The problem is that the prejudice does run deep and it's a big challenge that we we all do face and even now today as a speaker. A lot of times I've got I've got a story about being in The World Trade Center on September 11, it helps but still, how do I distinguish myself from so many other speakers who are out there that are always looking for probably the same job of why should they hire me? I was very fortunate, about a month ago to read about someone who heard me speak in 2014. At an event in Nevada, the event on safety, preparedness and emergency preparedness and management. And just this January, he wrote an article specifically about that event, talking about how much he remembered and how much he valued. What he heard that day from my presentation. What, what an amazing kind of thing, how often are you going to hear from somebody who heard a speech nine years before and remembers it?   Catherine Morgan  35:54 Oh, my goodness, isn't that a speaker's dream, though, to inspire their audience and to, you know, be memorable and make a change like that? That's amazing.   Michael Hingson  36:06 Absolutely is true. And it was, it was a wonderful article. So I, I now tell people about that when we talk about the possibility of speaking, which is pretty cool.   Catherine Morgan  36:15 Course, it should be part of your packet. Yeah.   Michael Hingson  36:19 So you, you talk about the whole idea today of work and hiring, and, and so on. So the industry in some senses has changed a lot because of technology. But in some senses, the process is still ultimately the same. How do we get people to learn the process when they think that technology is just going to solve all their problems?   Catherine Morgan  36:49 Isn't that the question you should see the look of horror on my on people's faces, when I tell them, they should only be spending 20% of their time doing online applications? Because they think that they can sit behind, you know, in the relative piece of their house behind their laptop and get this job search done. And, and maybe, but it's unlikely. So when I tell them my time allocation on how you should be spending your efforts, the responses is generally Ack.   Michael Hingson  37:23 Yeah. But still, it's what they have to do.   Catherine Morgan  37:29 If they want to good results, if they want to, you know, have the equivalent of scratch off tickets, maybe they get lucky.   Michael Hingson  37:37 Right? Oh, about different age groups are you are you seeing as we have an aging population and more seniors or more people approaching seniors who want to continue to be in the workforce? How is all of this working for them, as opposed to younger people and in the next generation or later? And their more comfortable with technology? But still, how does it work between different generations?   Catherine Morgan  38:07 That is a juicy question. I joke that, you know, old dogs can learn new tricks and new technology, which sort of breaks the ice a little bit. A lot of my people I work with generally 45 to 62. So we are on the more experienced side of the spectrum. And mostly I have not found a technology barrier for them. You know, pretty much everybody says they should be better with Excel. But other than that, they're comfortable with with computers, they're there on them, they they get it. That may not be the perception of younger workers, they may need to go in and prove that or specifically talk to it, because to your point, it is a bias. But it the types of clients who are drawn to my work because of the industries I serve, don't tend to have that issue. But I recommend that people talk to it if they're really good with data analysis or if they know any types of coding or you know, whatever software CRM systems anything that they're mentioned it to just poke poke that balloon right there. Like that's not in the room anymore. I get that it ageism mostly isn't. And a lot of times it's self inflicted, which generally galvanizes a room when I say that.   Michael Hingson  39:43 Tell me more about that though, if you would, please.   Catherine Morgan  39:47 I will. Well, most of the people I work with are white collar professionals, who have a lot of jobs function expertise or industry experience. And I try to tell them that having more experience doesn't make you less valuable. So, is there ageism in the workplace? Some? If you want to get into Google or Facebook or one of the young sexy tech companies, yeah, maybe it's a problem. Other companies? No, it's not. The the real issue when you sort of pull it part is, is it an age issue or a wage issue? Meaning is your 1015 20 years of experience worth 2050 100 grand more to the employer? Now, if a more junior person could adequately perform that job function? It is not. ageism is a money question. And if you were the hiring manager, you would make the same decision. So the trick is to apply for jobs for which your experience is important. Your negotiation skills, your judgment, your years of industry expertise, you're having watched multiple market cycles there apply for the jobs where you're not competing against very junior resources, because that's usually what's going on and everybody's it's ageism, they didn't pick me. It's ageism. No, it wasn't it was a money question. And it's a junior role. Don't call it what it is.   Michael Hingson  41:38 Or you have to work to find a way to Well, one of two things justify a higher salary because of your experience, or recognize that you may not get as much money as you would like. But as you said, that's the the amount of money that the job will pay.   Catherine Morgan  42:02 Yes, and people who switch industries, for example, financial services, and technology tends to be paid better than other industries. So we have a very honest conversation, that should they want to switch industries, they are likely going to have to take a pay cut, once again, not ageism. It's just what the market value in that industry is.   Michael Hingson  42:28 But do you find that there are though age biases in anywhere in the workforce, I'm not going to hire older people, I want younger people who are more energetic, who are going to stay longer, or whatever the case happens to be?   Catherine Morgan  42:44 Sure there are, then you don't work for that company. It's, you know, how the pendulum swings from one side to the other. That was certainly the case, you know, several years ago, but we have an aging population, just the demographics of the population, the younger generations are not going to be able to fill in all the jobs, they're going to need to keep the workers in there longer. And the value that a more experienced worker can bring some times as the ability to participate in multiple job functions, is, you know, add value to this team, this team and this team and be good with it can be a very smart decision for employers. And I think that savvy employers are really starting to get that.   Michael Hingson  43:40 And savvy employees are starting to get that they need to make that point.   Catherine Morgan  43:47 Exactly. I joke because that's who I am, that you need to be applying for positions where the gray hair of experience is valuable.   Michael Hingson  43:58 Right. And that's really, ultimately it. The fact of the matter is that there's a lot of value in experience. But you have to make the case, just like with anything else, like as I talked about the issue of turning perceived liabilities into assets. And when you're dealing like with disabilities, one of the facts that can be very relevant. And again, you have to understand whatever environment you're applying for, but the one of the facts that could be very relevant is I know that the unemployment rate among employable blind people is in the 65 to 70% range. The fact of the matter is, if you are willing to give me a job, and you hire me, I'm going to be much more apt to not want to leave and jump ship like younger people often do because they just think they're getting a better opportunity. I'm going to stay somewhere that well. comes me and demonstrates that they value me for who I am, even though I happen to be someone who is blind, and there are actually a number of studies and a lot of statistics that show that to be true.   Catherine Morgan  45:13 Well, turnover is extremely expensive for companies. So making that point that I will be your dedicated, committed employee, if you are committed and dedicated to me, I think that's a great point to make.   Michael Hingson  45:28 It is, again, one of those things where it takes savviness on both sides. And some employers, as you say, do get it. And I think more and more people will perceive that over time. But I think also, for example, employees with disabilities need to be the ones to make that point. And to create that conversation.   Catherine Morgan  45:53 Yes, you need to have your talking points, practiced. Because, yeah, we were not used to having those conversations. Like I honestly think, Michael, that you are the first blind person that I've that I know, I know, people who have, you know, lost major portions of their eyesight. And I'm actually working with a client who's sort of navigating through that now. But I don't know anybody who was born, born blind.   Michael Hingson  46:23 So for you, well, well, in the the issue is that even if you have some eyesight, if you're low vision, then I use that as opposed to what most people use visually impaired, because I don't regard myself as impaired and I don't want to be equated to eyesight. And visually, I'm not different, because I just happened to be blind. So low vision or blind, it's like deaf or hard of hearing, as opposed to deaf and hearing impaired, Hard of Hearing is a much more appropriate term that's become accepted. And we haven't done that yet, with eyesight, but low vision, people will oftentimes find if they look at it, that if they learn some of the techniques that totally blind people use, and if they accept their low vision, nature, and use that as an advantage, they can be very valuable employees wherever they go.   Catherine Morgan  47:18 I totally agree. And I'm working with a woman in this situation right now. And she's fully functional, nobody would know anything different, as long as she's home with her setup. You know, the right kind of monitors the right kind of kind of things, her anxiety is if she has to go back into an office environment, she's not going to have the equipment that she needs to succeed. And that's, you know, a valid question. But remote working is happening available more and more. And companies, you know, may be willing to make, you know, accommodations, more and more, I keep trying to tell her that it's possibly less of an issue than she thinks, but we'll work on our talking points, and we'll make sure that she's comfortable and presenting herself and I just don't think it's gonna end up being a problem for her.   Michael Hingson  48:08 Well, it doesn't need to be if even if she wants to go or if she's willing to go back into an office environment and needs certain kinds of equipment. The reality is, there are a lot of ways to get that in one state rehabilitation agencies are tasked with making people employable, and can help purchase equipment to, and I think philosophically even more important, whether it always can be used is why should the cost of business be any different conceptually for bringing a person with low vision into the employment environment? Why should that cost of business be any less or any different than what you do for sighted people by giving them computer monitors, computers, coffee machines, electric lights, so they can see how to walk around? The fact of the matter is that you know, in reality, so a person needs a magnifier or closed circuit, television type device.   Catherine Morgan  49:10 It's too new for her. It's still very raw. But should she'll be fine?   Michael Hingson  49:15 Yeah, but all of that is true, but there are places and ways to get the funding. The fact is that under the Americans with Disabilities Act, it is appropriate to explore with companies providing alternatives to what most workers use, and it should be part of the cost of doing business. We never view it that way, though. But that's a growth area for employers to work on to.   Catherine Morgan  49:42 I'm hoping that that's changing. I'm hoping that we're going to augment what is quote unquote normal and you know, with neuro diversity and people with disabilities, you know, I It's my hope.   Michael Hingson  50:01 Yeah, it's, it is a process. And it's new for her because she's not used to operating in a different environment or with different tools and with a different mindset. But that is still now part of her life. And here's the other part. And I don't know anything about what causes her eye condition. But she may lose the rest of that eyesight. And then she's going to have to learn all over again, which is another reason that I talk about the fact that this is the time, people should learn the techniques of what blind people use, because the odds are, if she started to lose eyesight, she's gonna lose the rest of it. And then you go through another psychological crisis again, unless you deal with it sooner rather than later.   Catherine Morgan  50:46 Maybe it maybe at some point, I can ask you to give some of your hard won knowledge to her. She's a very nice woman.   Michael Hingson  50:53 Sure, we can we can talk about that without doing it on the podcast. So nobody else needs to hear. But we could, we could certainly do that. But the reality is that, that eyesight or lack of eyesight isn't the problem. On either side, its attitude. It's philosophy, it's our perceptions, and misconceptions that create most of the problems. I agree, which is always a different issue. So you know, we talk about working and so on. And this reminds me of a situation just recently, I did another podcast interview with someone. And we were talking about work. And specifically, we were talking about work in the United States, as opposed to work in other countries, where in other countries, this person said, it would appear that people aren't so focused on just working, that they, they appreciate relaxation, they appreciate time away from work. And in the United States, it's all about just working and earning money. And that has to be an extremely stressful thing.   Catherine Morgan  52:10 It is an extremely stressful thing. And perhaps you're referring to Europe, when you're talking about well, among   Michael Hingson  52:17 other places. Yeah, it was she happened to be referring to Europe, she actually originally lived in the Soviet Union. And another observation she make made is that when the Soviet Union fell, people were presented with a crisis that now they had to make choices for themselves, whereas within the Soviet Union, they didn't have the opportunity to choose anything for themselves, which created another crisis. But she was observing with Europe and other been a number of other places, but primarily, I think she was referring to Europe.   Catherine Morgan  52:48 Yeah, well, this American hard work ethic, I think, has come back to bite us. Hard work is good. I am pro hard work I. But the badge of busyness or overworking added as a status symbol is a big problem right now, in the United States, as witnessed the rise of just stress, anxiety, depression, autoimmune disease is just, it's not working for us anymore. We need to respect the fact that we are humans, and we need to recharge. We're not just people who work we have a personal lives and family and hobbies and other things that we should do. I just this, we have a big problem here and we need to reorient how we think about the place work has in our lives. One survey I saw said 65% of people felt that the pandemic meaning 2020 and 2021 made them stop and rethink the place that work has in their lives. And going forward. A lot of people are recreating something different. They're willing to work, they want to work, but they also want to see their kids. They also want to spend time with their partner. They also want to be able to cook dinner and workout.   Michael Hingson  54:24 So you think we'll see that pendulum kind of switch a little bit?   Catherine Morgan  54:29 I think we have I think that's a big part of what caused the Great resignation and the great reshuffling in 2022.   Michael Hingson  54:35 How about employers? Are they recognizing the value of doing that? I mean, like as I understand it, in France, for example, in August, people basically are supposed to take the month off and in other countries over there, do these these kinds of things. Are we going to get to the point where we'll more value the idea of as employers having people be able to take more time off, or I think this is something that we're starting to see a little bit, being able to work more remotely, which gives us some of that opportunity.   Catherine Morgan  55:13 Yes, smart remote working as opposed to never fully disconnecting, we need to make a distinction between the two of those, because I'm, I'm all about remote work. But what that can mean is that you feel like you're on 24/7. So if you're replying to emails at 2am, this remote word thing isn't working in your favor. But your point was around taking time off. And I think employers who want people to stay and to not have to replace and retrain workers will need to adopt that to keep their highest performers, because the highest performers can go anywhere. And they're going to stay at organizations that support, you know, a more robust work life balance.   Michael Hingson  56:08 Do you think in our environment, there is room for both sides, employers and employees to recognize that, although one needs to earn a living money, isn't everything and there are other qualities such as working remotely or having more time off? Or having ways for people to relax? Do you think that that there is room for us to recognize that that kind of thing is relevant to and it isn't all just about money?   Catherine Morgan  56:43 Well, how about if I was able to try, unplugging, rejuvenating, resting, recreating to money, meaning if we don't have time and white space, to clear our brain? Great ideas don't come creative innovation doesn't come. Now, what makes companies money these days is innovative ideas. Well, if people are just on the hamster, wheel, Hamster, Hamster, Hamster, treadmill, treadmill, treadmill, they are not getting their best ideas. They're not thinking about different ways to change processes to leverage technology to scale to come up with the next iPhone or whatever. So I think if we can somehow slip the idea into C, C, the C suite, that if you let your employees rest in play, they're going to be more productive and come up with more innovative and creative ideas. Maybe we make it work.   Michael Hingson  57:52 Do you think we're seeing some of that or that we will see some or more of that.   Catherine Morgan  57:58 We're seeing it and lip service for sure. You're starting to see website copy that talks about wanting employees to have work life balance. I have a former client who's working at an at an ad agency, which is that's an industry that's notorious for beating up their people. And she says that her agency is insists that employees keep to a 40 Max 45 hour week. And if they report too much time, they ask the employee what kind of help they need to get the workload back to something manageable that can be completed in a reasonable work, then she almost fell off her chair.   Michael Hingson  58:42 Wow. That's that is pretty unusual. But refreshing, isn't it?   Catherine Morgan  58:47 Oh, that made that lighter future forward. Wouldn't that be great,   Michael Hingson  58:52 wouldn't it though? How about retirement? We've got a lot of places a mandatory retirement age at 65. And I don't know whether it's as mandatory as it used to be but should should everybody, everyone retire? Or how about that to go?   Catherine Morgan  59:14 Well, I think like everything one size doesn't fit all. So the people who are excited about their retirement and are planning to do whatever they're planning to do should go do that. But retirement for a lot of people is not a great idea. Example, somebody whose identity is very much tied to their work and their position or their title or their you know, if you're a doctor, if you're a lawyer, you're known as Dr. So and so you're known as so and so the lawyer. If you no longer have that in your life, you can feel untethered and lose your identity and Don't be bored out of your mind, or sink into clinical depression fairly quickly. So if you love your work, and you are energized by it, and it's a big chunk of your identity, a traditional retirement can, can be adverse for you like, I don't recommend it. But you know, there may be a balance to be struck once again, maybe you don't want to be working full time. My cousin was a doctor, a pediatrician, her whole career. And now she's working two, two and a half days a week. And that's the nice balance that she wanted to strike. But she's got to be in her mid 60s. So you know, that's what she wanted to do. My grandmother sold real estate until she was 87. She said it kept her young and out of doctors offices, all her friends were rich and didn't have to work. And she said, they spent all their time going to doctors. So there's something to be said, you know, if you're that type of person, and you like what you're doing, you might want to keep doing it.   Michael Hingson  1:01:05 Of course, there is the other side of it, which is maybe some people should retire for one reason or another.   Catherine Morgan  1:01:11 Absolutely. Like I am not. I don't think there's one prescription that's going to work for everybody. I have a couple friends who are like I'm never retiring and another couple of friends who are really looking forward to it. And they have, you know, specific plans for travel or grandchildren or mentoring or teaching or, you know, whatever. It's great, but I don't I don't think we can prescribe. Okay, you're 65 your value in the marketplace just ran out? No, you're likely it didn't. Now someone who has a physical job if they're lifting heavy cabinets and stuff, yeah, you might have to adjust and maybe be the project manager or the foreman or something. Those aren't generally people I work with. But you know, if there's physical constraints, that's a little different conversation, but as a sprain renters, I have had a lot of people who stayed at their company for 20 years, were eligible for their pension rolled out and call me six weeks later saying, Oh, my God, I'm so bored helped me get a job.   Michael Hingson  1:02:17 I have a nephew who worked for Kaiser Permanente for oh my gosh, oh, well, more than 30 years and retired in 2021, or 2020. stayed away for most of the year and decided that he was bored and went back to work. We didn't think it would last and it didn't he really he just retired again at the end of 2022. But he his situation is that he had to drive like 4550 miles to work every day, up over Cajon Pass and come down and the driving is horrible. And now especially after a pandemic, it's even worse, because he'll take two hours sometimes to get to work each day. So he's decided that now it's pretty good. And he went back to work because they asked him to come back. And they'd like him to come back again. And he said Not unless I can do it here. Yeah, well, not only remote, but there is a facility. There isn't a Kaiser hospital and he was administrator of portable hospital. But he could do most all of his work from the the Kaiser clinic here in Victorville. Or he could do it remotely. You're right.   Catherine Morgan  1:03:32 Okay, so that's just, let's be smart about this. Would you rather have somebody who's really good at their job that you trust? Who can you know, do it? I don't know, companies are going to have to get a little smarter about who really needs to be in the office who wants to be in the office, because some people are natural extroverts, and they're dying to go back to work. And then there's, there's some people like me, who are super happy to be working remotely, and always have been.   Michael Hingson  1:04:03 I'm used to remote to a large degree. So it doesn't, it doesn't bother me and getting to do the podcast is great to be able to do remotely. So I'm, I'm comfy with that. Well, we have to talk about the fact that you have a book and it is now out. And tell us about that, please.   Catherine Morgan  1:04:21 Well, my book is called this isn't working, evolving the way we work to decrease stress, anxiety and depression. So the question is, how do you make a book that has the words stress, anxiety and depression and the subtitle not make people run for the door going ACC? So how do you make where's the door and how do you make it, you know, friendly, helpful, engaging, and I got very lucky because my designer did a tremendous job. And it's, it's funny, people look at the title and just burst out like Laughing. So that was that's one way in. The other way in is my signature, empathy, snark and storytelling, which is what people people say that the book is just like having a conversation with me. So if you liked this conversation, you'll probably like the jokes.   Michael Hingson  1:05:20 Nothing wrong with snark. Little snark doesn't doesn't hurt a bit? Well, you got some news about your book today.   Catherine Morgan  1:05:31 I did it. My little book was released. It's a small book with a big mission is my my goal for this book. And it is the number one new release on Amazon in the work related health category. So I'm very pleased to share that.   Michael Hingson  1:05:51 Well, congratulations. That is definitely exciting. And if people want to reach out to you, or get your book or just talk to you and learn more about what you do, and maybe seek assistance, or whatever, how do they do that? The best   Catherine Morgan  1:06:09 way to find me and interact with me is on LinkedIn. So I've actively posting there and reach out connect, follow me. And I'd love to talk about what's going on with your work situation and how we can make it better because with the great resignation, quiet quitting, the great reshuffling and the tech layoffs of 2023, clearly what we're doing is not working. And we have some ways to go to improve this,   Michael Hingson  1:06:38 you could write a book and that'll help to Hmm. Do you have a website that people can go to?   Catherine Morgan  1:06:46 Sure, it's a little long though. PointAtoPointBTransitions.com.   Michael Hingson  1:06:48 Point A to Point B, the number two or to   Catherine Morgan  1:06:56 point point A to point B   Michael Hingson  1:06:59 transitions.com.com. That's easy to remember.   Catherine Morgan  1:07:05 It is I tried it out in grocery lines and stuff before I registered for the URL. It's long, but people are like, Oh, point A to point B, people always talk about getting from point A to point B and   Michael Hingson  1:07:15 it's to transition   Catherine Morgan  1:07:18 transitions, and they're like, Okay, so it's long to type it out because I'm dyslexic. But everybody remembers said,   Michael Hingson  1:07:26 yeah, it's easy to remember. And of course.com. We do have some clue about that. So that works out well. Yeah. Well, I want to thank you for being here and talking with us. And hopefully giving people some great ideas. If you're looking for jobs or looking to hire or just giving you something to think about. We're really grateful that you were listening to us today. I'd love to hear your thoughts about what we talked about and get your opinion. So please feel free to email me email addresses real easy. It's Michaelhi at accessibe A C C E S S I B E.com. And for those who don't know, accessibe is a company in Israel that makes products to help make websites much more inclusive for persons with disability. So Catherine, we'll have to check out your website, see how accessible it is?   Catherine Morgan  1:08:23 You're gonna tell me it needs to rework I'm guessing, but I'd love to hear about it.   Michael Hingson  1:08:28 Well, we could talk about that it's really not expensive with accessibe to do anyway. But you can also reach out to me through our podcast page, which is www dot Michael hingson.com/podcast. And hingson is spelled H i n g s o n, we would really appreciate and I know Catherine would appreciate you giving us a five star rating and talking about this and talking about her book. So I hope that you will all go out and buy it and read it and that it will inspire you. But again, Catherine, I really appreciate you being here today and hope that you will come back and tell us more as time goes on because I'm sure that the world is going to change and we need to continue to hear from you about new trends and new ideas and this whole process.   Catherine Morgan  1:09:15 Thank you so much, Michael. It's been a joy talking to you today.   Michael Hingson  1:09:24 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge

Lauren Foote's life has always included involvement with persons with disabilities. She was born into a family including a tetraplegic father, and other close family members with disabilities, and, as she discovered in college she also possessed a mental health disability. She will tell us all about this as she describes her life and tells her stories. She decided to take on a goal of seeking justice and inclusion for persons with disabilities in Canada as she went through college and she has stayed true to her desire to serve. You will learn how she has become involved in projects and jobs around urban planning and policy. She will discuss some of the committee work she does today and she will tell us stories of success she has had in helping to change how people in Canada view and interact with the population of individuals with all kinds of disabilities. About the Guest: As a lifelong disability rights advocate, Lauren Foote always knew that she wanted to work toward creating more equitable and inclusive spaces for people with disabilities. Growing up with a mental health disability, a tetraplegic father, and other close family members with disabilities allowed Lauren to experience accessibility barriers first-hand. Through her personal, academic, and professional experience in the realm of disability justice, she realized that these accessibility barriers were a result of decades of ignorance and oversight in community planning and infrastructure development. Lauren has since made it her life goal to mitigate access barriers by incorporating the rights of people with disabilities into urban planning and policy. Lauren proudly serves on the Advisory Committee for Accessible Transit (ACAT) at the Toronto Transit Commission and the ACAT Service Planning and Design Review subcommittees. In these roles, she offers expertise as a consultant to internal and external stakeholders about regional diversity, accessibility, and inclusion. Lauren has also collaborated with organizations including Ontario's Ministry of Transportation, Metrolinx, the Disability Foundation, the University of Toronto, Simon Fraser University, BCMOS, DIGA, and the David Suzuki Foundation to strategize methods to remove systemic barriers to access for people with disabilities. Through various roles in the accessibility planning realm, she has led forums, guest lectured, and constructed numerous reports on creating equitable and inclusive spaces. A majority of her work analyzes flood events and accessibility barriers, ableism within current legislation and policy, and transportation access and equity. In addition to her roles in accessibility planning, Lauren is working toward achieving her MSc in Planning at the University of Toronto, which she will complete this March 2023! Her thesis, Countering Ableism in Flood Resilient Infrastructure, allows people to reimagine public places as accessible and inclusive spaces for the entire community to enjoy. Lauren is dedicated to creating inclusive and equitable communities and she is so grateful that she has already had the opportunity to make meaningful change by increasing access for people with disabilities through her work. She plans to continue in the field of accessibility planning so that she can contribute toward bettering the community. Links for Lauren: Linked in: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lauren-foote-5187ab1b9/ About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app. Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes Michael Hingson 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson 01:20 Well, greetings and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. Today we are going to speak with Lauren Foote. Lauren is a lifelong disability rights advocate. And I think that's going to be interesting and relevant to talk about. She's been very involved in urban planning and a bunch of stuff. technical term. They're up in Canada. Lauren, welcome to unstoppable mindset. Thanks for being here. Lauren Foote 01:47 Thank you so much for having me, Michael. I'm so excited to be a part of your podcast. Michael Hingson 01:51 Well, we're glad to have you. Why don't we start by you telling me a little bit just about you growing up how things started and just a little about you as a as a younger Lauren? Lauren Foote 02:03 Sure. So I'm from to Austin. It's a small suburb outside of Vancouver, Canada. My father's touch diplegic I have a mental health disability. And I have other close family members with disabilities as well. So Disability Justice has always been a large part of my life. And I've always been active in the disability advocacy community, even from a young age like you were saying so. Michael Hingson 02:26 So when you say tetraplegia what does that mean? Exactly? Lauren Foote 02:30 Yeah. So it's a it's paralyzed from the neck down. So people might be familiar with paraplegic quadriplegic, or quadriplegic, quadriplegic and tetraplegia can be used semi interchangeably. But But my dad has a injury and his spine quite high up. And that affects the movement from his neck down. So because of that he has the touch of paychecks definition. Michael Hingson 02:54 Got it got. Yeah, well, and you, you said you have a mental health disability. Tell me about that, if you would, Lauren Foote 03:00 yeah. So I have pretty severe anxiety and OCD. A couple other things going on. But I'm really grateful that I have a good, a good support system, and I receive good medication for that. And I'm really open about it, because I think quite a few people actually have hidden disabilities. And the more you talk about it, the more people feel comfortable opening up about that, and it's just really important to me to create spaces where people feel welcome and included and accepted and, and having a mental health disability is quite a silent battle sometimes. So I tried to be open about it and welcoming it and make sure that people don't have to face barriers or discrimination because of that. Michael Hingson 03:45 Well, I can appreciate that. But doesn't chocolate help everything? Lauren Foote 03:50 Yeah, chocolate of course. Yeah. Michael Hingson 03:54 My wife was a was more of a milk chocolate fan. I more flexible. Of course, we both also liked white chocolate, which is you can't complain about that either. But chocolate is always good. Lauren Foote 04:05 Especially that peppermint bark chocolate you get there we go. Now Michael Hingson 04:09 we're talking. And they tend to only do that at Christmas time. So we have a Costco near here. And I at Christmas went in and bought several boxes of the Kirkland peppermint bark and one Ghiradelli. And so far, since we bought them near the beginning of December, I've gone through one box, they will last most of the year. It's sort of like, Girl Scout cookies, Thin Mints, you know, they have to be parsed out just to play safe. Lauren Foote 04:37 although admittedly, I buy a lot of them so they can be parsed out. Got a stack up, stock up in advance, you know? Michael Hingson 04:44 Yeah, I usually I usually buy at least a case of Thin Mints at a time. Lauren Foote 04:48 Absolutely. That's the way to do it. Michael Hingson 04:50 It is so when you went to school did you know at that time you had a disability of some sort or how to All that work out, Lauren Foote 05:01 um, I sort of had an inkling since I was young, but during my undergraduate years is when I officially got diagnosed with my disabilities. And I think it was really just, I was working a bunch of jobs, full time studying and everything was kind of like, I could almost coast by without without trying to bring too much attention to my disability beforehand. But then eventually, I realized I can't do this, I need to talk to someone. And finally being able to get the proper help I needed, really made such an impact in my life and being able to get on the right medication. And it actually helped inspire me to start some protocols for my undergraduate school where I came into different classes and taught about accessibility resources. And I helped people go to get the proper counseling they needed and, and teach them about all the options that were there for them that they might not know about, which I didn't know about at the beginning. And it's really fulfilling actually to see people get the help they need, and then just shine from that. Michael Hingson 06:02 How did your parents react to all that? Lauren Foote 06:05 Oh, they're I mean, my family. My family is a very disability positive community. So I mean, my dad was his physical health disability. And then I have other family members with disabilities as well. So they're very supportive. And I'm very honestly lucky to have them. And my dad introduced me to the disability community from a young age. So So I felt very welcomed. And I think that's one of the beautiful things about disability communities is they're always so focused on inclusion and equity. And it's such a great place to be people are just so so awesome. Michael Hingson 06:37 Why did you decide though, that you wanted to take on the role of being an advocate and really pushing for change, rather than just saying, Alright, so I'm a person with a disability, I'm gonna go off and do my own thing. But I don't need to be an advocate. Lauren Foote 06:50 I think I was a healthy dose of frustration with the way Planning and Community communities are organized today. Especially going around town with family members and myself. During we would always face barriers to access and transportation, especially public transportation systems, we would go, I live in the Pacific Northwest, which experiences a lot of climate change related hazards like floods, and a lot of California does, too. And I believe you're in California now. So this is something you would probably resonate with fires, and all of that. And people with disabilities that their needs aren't really accounted for in planning, evacuations and planning areas to be more resilient. So people with disabilities often get left behind, especially in flooding events. A good organization, called Rooted in Rights did a documentary on Hurricane Katrina and the people's disabilities who are left behind and that, and I just realized that these barriers don't have to be there. They're put there through there through systemic and institutional barriers that were in place by planning, core planning and poor policy practices that have evolved over time to exclude people. But if we just go back and start mitigating some of those barriers, everyone will have the ability to be included and, and cared for and welcome in society. Michael Hingson 08:13 So where did you go to college? Lauren Foote 08:16 Well, I did my undergraduate at Simon Fraser University, it's, it's out west and BC. On a mountain, actually, there's bears which I like to tell people as a fun fact. And right now, I'm just completing my master's degree in urban planning at the University of Toronto. And here, I do a lot of work on disability rights and incorporating their needs into planning. Michael Hingson 08:40 What was your undergraduate major, Lauren Foote 08:41 it was in. So bio geophysical sciences, that is the technical name, but under the field of physical geography, and that was the reason I was still interested in those climate hazards I was bringing up earlier, and I was understanding the processes behind why they happen. And then I and then through my work with the disability Foundation, where I was working on more of a community based level and accessibility planning to incorporate the needs of people with disabilities into planning in the community, I realized there's not really like sure, we talked about climate change. And I'm reading all these climate change policies and reading all these environmental policies. I'm reading about how to plan resilient communities, and the needs of people with disabilities aren't being thought of at all, which is a huge issue. Because if they're not even thought of that, how are we going to create resilient communities that include people with disabilities? So that's kind of where I was trying to I was bridging that interest between environment, environmental sustainability, but also community resiliency for people with disabilities. And through my work, I kind of picked up transportation as well, but particularly public transportation as a sustainable way of moving across cities and connecting people to spaces and places and incorporating the needs of people with disabilities into that as well. Michael Hingson 09:56 Well, delving into that a little bit. Why do you think it is Since that people tend to just not pay attention or leave people with disabilities behind. Lauren Foote 10:08 Yeah, so, um, I guess not pay attention. I feel that might not be the I wouldn't say I necessarily think that but I think there's just, if you don't have a disability or you don't know somebody who has a disability, you don't experience it on a day to day basis, or you have any reason to even think about it, it's not that they don't care. It's just, it's not something they personally experienced. So they might not notice the nuances of needs that people with disabilities have. And then it gets overlooked. And a lot of plant planning in North America was very colonial, segregated, ableist. And a lot of the policies we have in place are from that period of time where people with disabilities were, and still are an afterthought, although it's getting better. And I think a lot of it comes down to education. And I was talking to, I won't name names, but I was talking to a CEO of a housing development company here in Toronto. And we were talking about building affordable housing in the community, and he was buying up land parcels to do this. And he genuinely thought, all you needed to create accessible housing was adding a ramp on the bot on the floor. And that was it, there was nothing that needed to be done inside. There's no other barriers that needs to be considered. And he genuinely thought that and I was honestly shocked, like, this is the CEO of an affordable housing company. It's quite a large company, actually, in Toronto. And I just couldn't believe the lack of knowledge there. But on the bright side, he was very willing to learn, and he was very receptive to my feedback. And he incorporated some of my insights into his analysis, which was awesome. So I think it really shows that it's not that people don't care, it's just that they might not be aware of the barriers that are there. So it's important to learn what they are, so you can mitigate them. Michael Hingson 12:03 The other part about it is that when you're building a house from the ground up, pretty much to deal with physical issues. As a as a starting point, doesn't really cost a lot unless you're going to a two story or three story house where you have to have the extra cost of an elevator, but to build in wider doors, to build in lower counters, to not have steps and make the whole grounds accessible, really doesn't cost because you built it into the design. And we've built several homes. And the reality is the only time we ever really had an extra cost. Well, we had to one, the first home that we designed was a manufactured home, and we worked with the home manufacturer, and it cost us $500 Because they had to go get a different HUD design approved. And so 500 bucks in the scheme of things. The other one was in New Jersey where we had a home that had to be a two story home. So we did have to put an elevator in but other than the elevator, there were no additional costs when you do it upfront. And it is such a huge thing if you have to go back and do it after the fact. Lauren Foote 13:18 Exactly. And there's so many cost analysis that show that it costs like exactly like you're saying the same price, sometimes cheaper, sometimes a tiny bit more, but plus or minus a few dollars here and there Overall, it's a very similar cost. And also, it opens up the market to a whole new population two, I mean, 25 24% of people in Ontario identifies as a person with a disability. So having accessibility and housing only increases the the places where people can can live. So Michael Hingson 13:48 sure. And the problem is, of course, with all the homes that are already built, you run into all the difficulties of having to go back and do it later. But that's why it's important with new homes affordable and otherwise, that accessibility be built into the process because in reality, it's not just going to help people who happen to have some sort of physical disability and we can look at other things as well. But it's also an aging population who are going to have to take advantage of those things. Lauren Foote 14:22 Exactly, exactly. And it helps make more equitable and inclusive communities to and any at least in Ontario, the government subsidizes companies that retrofit buildings to make them accessible. I'm not sure about the legislation in California, but they're in place. Yeah, no, they don't. Okay, that's. That's unfortunate. Hopefully one day then you do have ADA. So that's good. Well, Michael Hingson 14:49 yeah, but there are other things about the ADEA for example, unless you're doing a major remodel, you don't have to go back and, and put in anything to necessarily make something accessible. and you're not going to get funding to do that, at least the way the structure is set up right now. So those do tend to be issues that we have to contend with. And again, that's why it's important upfront that when you're building new housing, that you really put in all the stuff to make the the home the unit accessible and usable by everyone. Absolutely, I completely agree. How do we change the conversation, because there's another part of the conversation, let's take it away from Housing, and Urban Planning, and take it to the job market where you go into a company. And let's take blindness because in a sense, it should be simpler to deal with. So we'll just use that for the moment. Somebody applies for a job. And they need to have a screen reader to be able to hear what's going on the computer, or they need to have Braille signs on restrooms that aren't necessarily there already. And the people who are running the company, or you got a coffee machine, that's touchscreen, and how do you make that usable? But the people who run the company go, Well, I can't afford to pay money to make any of those things accommodating to you. We just don't have the money to do that. And how do we change that conversation when in reality, it ought to be part of the cost of doing business to be inclusive for all. Lauren Foote 16:35 Absolutely. I mean, again, I'm not sure about California, but that is outright discrimination here in Iowa. It is yeah. Okay. So same idea. And one of the interesting things, at least through my experience, because I've I've dealt with this, especially given your screen reader example. This past summer, I was working with the Ministry of Transportation, and all the onboarding documents for new hires were not screen reader compatible for some reason. So I would go in and make them all screen reader compatible. And they had no concern with this. But one of the things that helped the that the Minister of Transportation, at least, was having a separate branch specifically focused for accessibility. And I think that's a really good idea. And I think, and I'm on the advisory committee for accessible transit at the Transportation Commission, for Toronto, and a bunch of different initiatives in in the city of these were those accessibility committees. And having people who have disabilities or have experienced working with disabilities come in and provide their expertise, I think is so key, and can really help solve some of these problems. So if somebody went to a company was in a company and said, I need Braille signage, and the company was saying, No, that's when I would take it a step further, ideally, they would have some sort of accessibility committee that could reach out to which I know many places in Canada have. I'm not sure how it works in the United States, but many jurisdictions and municipalities in Canada have accessibility committees or boards, who deal with these types of concerns and can help them get further legal aid and advice for this discrimination. But also just bringing it up ahead of time and saying, Hey, actually, I'm not sure if you knew, but this would this here, if I if you could put Braille here I'd been helped me understand this. I've had a lot of conversations like that with people in planning. And just by explaining to them, a lot of times, they say nine times out of 10, they make the change right away. Because they're just not aware like this, there's a lack of awareness of these barriers that people face really Michael Hingson 18:47 well. There are a lot of lacks of awareness. But let's take another example websites, you go to a company that's got a website, and people need to interact with it, the company goes off and gets an estimate, oh, it's going to cost 10 $20,000 to get a programmer or programmers hired to come and make that website accessible and inclusive. How do you deal with that? Lauren Foote 19:13 Well, in that case, I would, first you explained the benefits, right, like what I mentioned earlier, there's a quarter of Ontarians have some sort of disability might not be blindness, it might not be the need for a screen reader, but they there are some sort of disability. numbers fluctuate depending on the region globally, it's about 15% of people have disabilities. So if by making your website compatible for screen readers, you're really opening up a whole new audience to seeing whatever your product is, or whatever your company is selling or what they do. And that's only beneficial because you're widening the scope of people who can interact with and and be a part of your company. But aside from them saying no, again, that is a human rights issue. We have Have A an act in Ontario called the Accessibility for Ontarians with Disabilities Act that actually requires these types of websites to be accessible for people with disabilities by 2025, it was put in place in 2005, that the act. So a lot of companies now are hiring people to update these websites. And our provincial government does have some subsidies to do this as well. So So pointing at the attention to the subsidies that are available would be useful. Also, Michael Hingson 20:29 a lot of places don't tend to have the subsidies. And I'm sure that even the subsidies are limited. And depending on the website, it can be a pretty complex website. And so companies, hiccup, spending 20,000, or $30,000, or whatever the case happens to be to go in and make the website accessible for what they view as a small number of people. It doesn't change the fact of what you said, but it still is an issue for them. Because they're going I can't afford to pay that money. Yeah, and and the question is, how do we get around that kind of situation? Because it is something that we are all confronted by law, I mean, look at it this way, we know that about 98% of all websites aren't accessible and usable. And yes, a lot of that has to do with education, a lot of it has to do with the fact that people need to be made more aware of the value of doing it, they need to be made aware of the fact that in reality, there are studies that show that if you make your website inclusive, and people come and use your website, they're going to come back time and time again, because it's going to be hard to go elsewhere. But most businesses are not large, and can't afford to hire a programmer. So how do they do that? And some of them build up pretty strong resistance to going off and making that change, because I just can't afford to do that. Lauren Foote 21:58 Yeah, and I think that's where subsidies are come into play here. And that's something that I'm really grateful that we have in Ontario, so they can help the small businesses that have those financial barriers. Again, I do find it hard to have. I feel like it's a human rights issue. So it's Oh, it is a human rights issue. So to me, it's it's just something that needs to be done and saying it costs money isn't a really valid excuse to discriminate against people. And, Michael Hingson 22:27 of course, that is of course, your view. However, if you personally has to spend money. Yeah, I agree with you. But But that is, that is the issue. Yeah. Lauren Foote 22:38 And I think that's why having it in legislation and policy is key. And that's something I'm working towards doing. Because then you can say, well, it's required. And this is discrimination at the end of the day. And if they're going to be uncooperative, at least you can have the legislation to back you in that. Michael Hingson 22:54 Yeah, it's it's a long process to enact some of those is difficult. I can't resist bringing up the fact that I work for a company called accessibe. And I don't know whether you've looked at the house. Yes. And so part of the answer can be, hey, if it only costs you $500, to make your website inclusive, because you have under 1000 pages, and a lot of the accessibility issues can be addressed by something like accessibility, why not do that? But the answer ultimately, really, is it's education. And it's getting people to understand what you said that is, you're going to lose about 25% of your business, if you don't deal with making access happen, because people will go off and look for other websites that are more inclusive. And the fact is that if you do the job, and you make the website available, and you demonstrate and using it with the other parts of the company, like I said, Braille signage, which is which is not overly complicated, but other kinds of things like accessible coffee machines, since we tend to have coffee machines in our companies now for employees, and finding ways to make all those things work. If you make that step happen, where you create that kind of inclusion, you will find that you have more loyal employees who are going to stick with you and not jump ship nearly as fast as other people. Lauren Foote 24:23 Absolutely. And I think that's something that's really important to drive home to people who are more money minded about the about it, who maybe care less about the human rights aspect and more about the dollars because at the end of the day, like you said, you are increasing access to your website and you will have those loyal customers now who who can ask navigate your website properly and to who trust the website. Michael Hingson 24:46 What kind of resistance is do you see? And so far as dealing with accessibility, whether it's in companies or homes or or whatever What kind of really strong resistance Do you tend to see on a regular basis? Lauren Foote 25:04 I say on a regular basis, I wouldn't know I don't know, if there's one particular thing I have a lot of, I come up to face the heritage at Planning Act a lot, because this act, I kid you not will there will value the character of the building. So like whatever makes gives it its heritage value over the right to access a building for people with disabilities. And that's I think the heritage act is something that I find conflicts with disability rights the most. And the heritage act is just it's kind of as it sounds, it's about preserving buildings because of their inherent heritage value, maybe it's a 40 year old building or a 50 year old building, they don't have to be that old. But these buildings were kind of made in a time where accessibility really was an afterthought. And they're not generally that accessible to people with disabilities. And there's been cases in Toronto and elsewhere, where people have bought homes, their own home, it was not a heritage building, and then a disgruntled neighbor found out they were going to renovate it, or an or a few disgruntled neighbors found out they're going to renovate it. And then they moved to give the building heritage status and thus prevented them from performing the alterations. However, recently, there's been a lot of outcry. And a lot of coverage in the media and the news because of this. So if there's, a lot of these decisions have been reversed, and people are able to then do the accessibility modifications they need whoever it's just such a clear sign that there's so much work that needs to be done still and, and how frustrating for people who just wanted to renovate their home to have to go through all of this, just to be able to say no, I need to access this, this home. But public spaces as well, too. There's there's some legislative buildings in Ontario, where we had to fight to put in a ramp because they're worried it would, you know, infringe on the character of the building. Although more recently, I have noticed a trend, definitely that people are siding with the accessibility side of things over the heritage side of things. And I am seeing a general trend towards less of these cases happening. So that's something I'm pleased about. But also, even when we're talking about just general. So like in my role on the Advisory Committee for accessible transit, the Toronto Transit Commission, we do a lot of on site audits in person audits of things. And before we do these audits, we'll go we'll go through the designs, with the whoever's implementing a transit line, we'll talk about all the possibilities and how to make it accessible. And it's a very long process. And finally, when it starts being implemented, we go on site and do these audits. And sometimes, it's just not how it's, for example, there recently, I was looking at an LRT station, which is a light rail station for public transit. And two people who were on the audit with me were blind, and the tactile edging, which for listeners who might not be familiar with this, it's bumps on the ground that indicate whether you're going to go onto a busy road, or there's gonna be a great change, or there might be hazardous materials coming up. They were flush with the ground. So they were not detectable by the two peoples walking canes, and they just walked right onto the road. And that's just an example of some of the nuances that you capture on in person audits that you don't really, so you would think in theory that it's accessible, there's the tactile edging there. I mean, among a bunch of other things they did not just talk to alleging, but it actually wasn't. So really being in there on person helps, helps clarify things too. And that's somewhere where I face some issues sometimes too. I mean, you can't make a place 100% accessible. That's not the point. It's about creating a place that's as accessible and as inclusive as possible. So So yeah, definitely lots of little nuances and little struggles along the way but but that's you know, the part of what it is to fight for disability rights and disability justice and I'm happy to do it. Michael Hingson 29:12 Well, the the other side of truncated domes or tactile edges is people in wheelchairs hate them because that bounces them around like cobblestones. My wife hated them. And I understand that also, from my perspective, as a blind person using a cane and or using a guide dog. The surfaces aren't all that wide and it's if you're walking at any kind of speed, you could go right over it and totally miss them. Exactly. Yeah. And so the reality is I still think it comes back down to people doing a better job of using a cane to to know where they are, but I appreciate especially Sacramento California is a great place for this where a lot of curbs are not curbs at the corner. intersections of the corners, they go flush right down to the street. And yeah, they are very difficult to tell, you can if you're really paying attention because the sidewalk is composed of different material than the street, if you happen to use a cane where you can notice that, and but at the same time, it is an issue that that needs to be addressed. And I don't know what the ultimate solution to that happens to be, or really should be. But I'm not sure that the the the tactile or truncated domes, really are the ultimate solution. Because if they're only like 18 inches, and you take a step, that's more than 18 inches, you could go right over him. And the problem is, so I think it's something else that has to be looked at. But you bring up an interesting point with the heritage homes thing. When we moved to New Jersey, in 1996, they were just preparing to modify the train station where we lived in Westfield, New Jersey, the way you got on the train, the way you got on the train before that was there are steps built into the side of the train car and you went up these like 18 inch steps, and you went up three of them and you're in the car. Well, everyone started to recognize with the Americans with Disabilities Act, you've got to have a sidewalk that's raised so that people can go right across, which which is fine, except people in the town started to protest and yell saying, we don't want that because that means we've got to go back or around and go up a ramp or up steps. And if we're running to catch a train, we might miss it. Because we'll miss being able to go up those steps, we got to take this slightly longer route. And we don't want that. Why don't they just hire people to be there to lift at every train station to lift people in wheelchairs on trains, which was ridiculous. That's crazy. And it took it was a major fight. So the problem is, there's a lack of awareness, but there's also a lack of sensitivity and a lack of understanding that you can say these things. And you can say how inconvenient it is? Why don't you just plan on getting into the train to 15 seconds earlier or 2030 seconds earlier? And it means that more people can ride the train? And the reality is they finally Well, New Jersey Transit pushed it through and got it all addressed. And I never heard of anybody having a problem getting on the train. So of course, you know, yeah, that's the other the other side of it. My favorite example, though, of all this is looking at a place like in Virginia Colonial Williamsburg and Williamsburg is the original capital of Virginia, it goes back to the 1700s Revolutionary War. And they did not want to change buildings in Williamsburg, like the governor's house or the state house to put ramps in because it would have destroyed the integrity of the building from a standpoint of what it looked like and so on. Right. And I appreciate that. So we were there once my wife and I, and we said we wanted to go up into the state house, but it was up several steps. How do we get in? Well, it was a manual chair. I could have tipped her back. But we were talking about it and this guy comes up who was a guard, okay. And he said, Oh, let me show you. He said stay right here. There was a little flagstone patio right in front of the steps going up into the building. He said, so just stay here. He walks away. We're standing on the flagstone path or patio. Suddenly the patio raises up and slides across. Lauren Foote 33:51 He didn't even tell you. Okay, that'd be startling. Well, Michael Hingson 33:55 the point was that they had created a way to get people in the building that in no way interfered with the integrity of the historic value of the building. It was really cool. Lauren Foote 34:08 Yeah, I think that's a really cool example of ways that you can there's there's no excuse not to have accessibility in, in heritage buildings, there's always a way to make it happen. And we couldn't get Michael Hingson 34:19 to upper floors. There was no easy way to do that. And, and we had a discussion with him and some other people about that. And they said we are constantly trying to figure out a way without destroying the building to figure out how to get to upper levels, and they'll figure it out one of these days, but they hadn't by the last time we were there. Lauren Foote 34:37 I'm sure they will. Yeah. And another thing is they allowed modern day plumbing in all of these buildings, which involves removing some of the elements of buildings and maybe quote unquote, compromising the character the the heritage of the building to put in plumbing, so don't really see if they're using that to justify plumbing then how then how come they won't be able to put an accessibility modifications to To me, it's also a necessity. Michael Hingson 35:01 I'm not sure that they did any of that at the buildings in Colonial Williamsburg. Lauren Foote 35:05 Yeah, that sounds like a different case. Michael Hingson 35:06 That's yeah, that's an unusual case. But I think for what you're talking about, absolutely, in general. That's perfectly true. Exactly. Yeah. But Williamsburg was a little bit of an exception, and understandably so. But even so, they worked to make it possible to get into the buildings and do things and the restaurants were accessible and, and other things they had created ways to get in. So it was a lot of fun to go there and see the creativity. Yeah, it is, it is a problem. Because the attitude isn't just a lack of education, there is true resistance to change, there's a resistance to inclusion, and it is something that we do need to deal with. Lauren Foote 35:48 Exactly. And, and like, I mean, you've said, and I've said, Education definitely helps people who have that resistance to change, because a lot of times it comes from a lack of a lack of understanding and compassion for what other people are going through and experience. And then when they can be told or described to or given examples of, of how this adjustment will help people, and how people are prevented from seeing things currently, or going places currently, and how a small modification will make a big difference in people's lives. Generally, people come around, it's a longer process than I, I would like but it's definitely possible. And it has and it happens. Michael Hingson 36:31 Well, amen mentioned in Jersey Transit, tell me a little bit about accessibility when it comes to public transportation and so on. And some of the challenges or things that you've seen, and how are we moving toward getting that to be addressed in a lot of different ways? Lauren Foote 36:47 Well, I guess, if I take a step back, and I'm sure a lot of people are familiar with this, it's similar across North America, systemic and institutional ableism, which is the discrimination towards people with disabilities with exists within almost all public transportation systems in North America today, I presume many other regions of the world as well, but I'm not well versed in other areas. And what I mean by that is public transportation has historically been designed and constructed in a way that has created unnecessary barriers for people with disabilities, like we mentioned. And it's therefore excluded people from with disabilities from the right to access space in the community, and public transportation is key, it gets people from space to space, it helps people get to work, it helps people get to appointments to see friends. And I should note that this access is is not just pertaining to the disability community, this access issue also pertains to racialized communities, lowing income communities and other vulnerable communities as well, just to point out, and it can be traced back to these poor planning practices I was talking about where there's segregation and exclusion of the quote, unquote, other. And a good I guess, a good example of this, that North Americans might be familiar with his redlining. And it's these practices where they were quite racist practices where they separated white communities and black communities and, and there's a lot of ableism involved in in practices like this as well, although it's more nuanced and less talked about. Anyways. So what I do today works towards removing these systemic institutional barriers that have kind of worked their way into all facets of public transportation in North America, but I focused on a Canadian context. And recently, I was working with the Ministry of Transportation where I worked to create accessible rail for people. I've also worked in operations planning and service design with Metrolinx, to look at ridership with the pandemic, and people with disabilities, and communicate that with external stakeholders. And my work right now, which I'm so proud of on that advisory committee, which I've mentioned, for accessible transit, really allows us to help, we're actually we also retrofit old stations to make them accessible, and plan new stations to make them accessible for people with disabilities. And I feel like it's this role where I can really make a difference in the community. It's really fulfilling to be able to be like this station didn't used to be accessible, but now it is, and now more people can have access to places they need to go, you know what I mean? Michael Hingson 39:24 So what kinds of things do you do to get a station to be accessible? Lauren Foote 39:29 Oh, it's, well, first of all, I guess if it's a if it's an old station, and we're retrofitting it, so if we're like re constructing it to make it accessible, we we do some site visits of the old station, we talk with designers of the station, we talk with project managers, we see what could be done what I'm not an engineer, so what can be constructed. What, there's so many discussions that happen. A lot of the stations that are older are way too narrow and don't have elevator access. and don't have any indication where the drop off is, I know you're not a fan of tactile edge, or maybe not a fans too strong, but it's something we use a lot here and I there's miss my dad's in a wheelchair too. Michael Hingson 40:10 And he has an AR use. And they are used here too. Lauren Foote 40:13 Yeah. And he has to pop a wheelie over those tactile leggings. So so I definitely know what you mean. But it's definitely something that helps, especially in subway stations, in my opinion, because we just have those like abrupt drop off. So having much wider indications that a drop off is coming is useful. Although by all means not the only or the best way to do so. But it is affordable on a tight budget and semi semi decent. But anyway, so Michael Hingson 40:43 if a person is using their cane well, and they have a long cane, in the accepted practice, although not among some professionals in the field is you shouldn't have a cane that comes up under your chin. So you have about a three step warning. And even without the tactile bumps, you would be able to have enough of a warning of a drop off to be able to deal with it. But I'm not you know, I'm we're not going to debate that it's Yeah, around. But But what other, tell me other kinds of things that you would do to make a station accessible, safe where a person who's blind? Lauren Foote 41:20 Yeah, so one of the things we do, for example, for talking about people who are blind, or not necessarily buying but other disabilities as well, like mobility related disabilities, there's a big issue with coupler gaps, which are that space between two carts on a subway. So if you know how each car kind of connects, and there's like a big gap there, people kept falling into them or confusing them for entranceways, which makes sense, because the way they're shaped, kind of give off the impression that you could walk into there. But it's actually in between, it's onto the tracks. So we designed these little flap things that come up and prevent people from doing that. So it's small little additions. That's just something I worked on recently, which is why I brought it up. And it's something that that was useful to the blind community just because we're looking at cases of people walking into the tracks or even people tripping and falling or you getting pushed in your own rushing for the door. And then another thing I was looking at was we had some billiards out because like you mentioned about the tactile edging, you said people should notice it. But people weren't noticing it enough. So we had to pry Oh, yes, Michael Hingson 42:32 yeah, that's that's definitely an issue. Lauren Foote 42:36 And there was this concern about if there was an emergency, and only some doors could open, at least what the trains were working with, or the subway station cars were working with, there's only one of the doors is truly fully accessible out at about five to one per cart, which is again, another issue, but that's the way it is for now. And there was concern that Oh, what if it doesn't if it stops in an emergency and this accessible door is half covered by these billiards? So then we made them bendable and flexible. And, and we got out there a few of my my friends who use wheelchairs or trying to wheel over them, and it was too big. So they had to read redesigned them to make them thinner. And and then we're concerned about potentially guide dogs not knowing whether to go over it. There wasn't there was just someone who was with me who had a guide dog who raise that concern. And then eventually, it's a lot of trial and error. And you come and you find the solution. So we ended up doing the flexible ones, not the not the non flexible ones. And they are a little thinner, and they have warning signs. And I guess we'll see if that helps people more than the tactile. But yeah, and again, it's it's we're gonna have to review that. And then try something new. If it doesn't work, a lot of it is is trial and error. And a lot of it's nuanced, because everyone has unique disabilities, and everyone has unique needs because of their unique disabilities. So that's why more voices is important, bringing more opinions to the table. Michael Hingson 43:59 Well, so here's another question. Yeah. To do it this way. Where's the responsibility of the consumer in all this, for example, I submit bappy having been using guide dog since I was 14, and been mobile my whole life and using a cane for most of my life. Where is my responsibility in being able to deal with some of those things like you mentioned, the subway car, space between the cars, the connectors, and so on. If I'm using a cane properly, I would detect that we're not dealing with an entrance to a car because I would feel the drop off rather than the than the cane, finding that there's a car there to step into. And likewise, again dealing with the drop offs, if there weren't tactile edgings my cane will find it far enough in advance to Allow me to stop or alter my course. So where, where is my responsibility as a consumer and all of that? Lauren Foote 45:10 I think the same can be said for people who do not have disabilities is, if everyone used everything, the best case, in a best case, weigh, then we'd have a lot less safety measures in place because it wouldn't be necessary. And that doesn't just apply to people with disabilities. But unfortunately, that's not the case. And things happen. And like I said, people get pushed when people are busy in almost all subway stations, not just the ones in here in Toronto, and people get pushed into these spaces when there's this rush. And there's certain certain sins instances that can't be avoided. So it's about maximizing the safety possible. And in this case, oh, sorry, yes. Michael Hingson 45:48 Which is not to say consumers don't have a responsibility. But by the same tokens, what at what token, what it is saying is that consumers should use all of their tools, but at the same time, you can't rely on that. Lauren Foote 46:05 Exactly. And like what, like I said, in the emergency situation, evacuation is an issue too. And that's not necessarily the consumer, but that's definitely not the consumers responsibility, they just need to get out. Because there was an emergency that unexpected something happened. And, and, and yes, everyone should be trying to be as safe as possible in transit systems, whether you have a disability or not. But in reality, things happen. People are distracted, it's busy. People are confused. They might be new to the area, and not familiar might be the first time on transit. So there's a lot of specific circumstances that come into play. So which brings Michael Hingson 46:42 up another question, again, dealing with blindness. What you haven't discussed is information access. So for example, I go into a station. Yes. How do I know what train is coming? Yes. You know, those kinds of things. What? And I'm not saying you don't in any way, but I'm I'm curious, what do you do to retrofit stations to deal with those kinds of things? Lauren Foote 47:08 We actually do quite a bit in that way. And one of the main issues of the new station I audited last month was the air conditioning was too loud for anybody to hear. Instructions. And it was really funny actually, because I don't know if people who aren't from Canada might not know but I'm not sure that conversion to Fahrenheit, but it gets to 40 degrees Celsius, which is extremely Oh, summer. And people think of it is very, it gets cold here too. Don't get me right. It's cold right now. I wish I was in California right now. But I'm, I'm here unfortunately, in cold winter, but it gets really hot. Michael Hingson 47:44 This morning. It got down to minus five Celsius here. Lauren Foote 47:48 Oh, that's pretty chilly. For California. Michael Hingson 47:51 I live up on what's called the high desert. So we have about 20 850 feet up so we we had a little bit chill, and it hasn't gotten all that warm yet today. But anyway, it's better Lauren Foote 48:03 than here. I'd take that over the weather. Oh, Michael Hingson 48:05 I know. I hear you. Lauren Foote 48:07 But yeah, definitely still cold. I'm surprised I yeah, I guess when I think of California, I think of like, LA and the warm beaches. So naive, I suppose. Michael Hingson 48:17 Just keep in mind when you're at one of those warm beaches during the winter, you can drive two hours and be up in snow country and go ski. Lauren Foote 48:24 Wow. Yeah, I'd love to visit in the winter sometime. It'd be so nice. But yes, back to Audible indicators. The air conditioning, which goes which has to be on in the summer was was way too loud. And people couldn't use. People couldn't hear this. Tell the voice telling you where you were, what station you're at or how far you had to go. And, and that was a huge issue, of course. So we're working on fixing that. And this was a new station. And it was just embarrassing, because not for the for the designers because they worked so hard to make sure that they had all these proper sounds in place and signals in place and audible signals in place. And then the air conditioning of all things was too loud and people couldn't hear it. But they are working to fix that. And we do have that in place. We do have Braille signs, we put places, they used to be more in the older stations, which is something we're working on in retrofitting old stations. We also have a program, at least here and I know it's very similar in other areas as well, where people who are new to transit for free can sign up for a program where someone accompanies them for the first few times to make sure that they're familiar with their route and know where to go. And that's free of cost. And I think it's really beneficial to people, especially people who have invisible disabilities, especially even like anxiety or they might have autism or something. Those are those are some major clients who use who use that service, that free service and I think that's helpful too. And having attendance there to help this is really important too. But of course there's so much work that needs to be done and like I said I just pointed About a big issue that we found last month. So it's definitely never ending. Michael Hingson 50:04 What's what's happening in terms of using some of the newer technologies working toward having the ability to use indoor navigation apps and things like that? Is anything being done in Canada with that, in so far as all that goes in that regard? Lauren Foote 50:23 Yes, but it is kind of in its infancy here, there's a lot of talk. And there's some meetings about how we can do that, and what what would be involved and how we can make sure it's accessible for people. I recently did an audit. And my thesis is in, in incorporating accessibility into flood resilient infrastructure in Toronto, and I was doing an audit of a green quarter, which is a trail basically a pathway with shrubbery and trees and grass and parks, and all of that think of green space in an urban area, kind of, but a long linear path. Anyways, I digress. And this is where I sparked the conversation about about having this technology and how it be so useful for people because the GPS, GPS doesn't really extend onto these trails. And it'd be very, very useful for people, I was walking with someone who was blind, and they said, that would really help them. And then QR codes are being added to a lot of things here. That's something that's being done, and it continues to be done, but but needs to still be done more. So there's some Michael Hingson 51:28 things, there's a lot of work being done, though, on indoor navigation that Yeah, it's interesting, might really be helpful, I'd love to talk with you about that offline, and maybe help you make some contacts that would help with that. But there are actually solutions that can help in moving around indoor spaces, and it can be outdoor spaces as well, that are not nearly as complex to make happen. As you might think. There's a lot of development going into all of that. And the other service for blind people that immediately comes to mind as a service you may or may not be familiar with called IRA. Are you familiar with Ira? Yes, I'm familiar with Ira, a IRA. And the reality is that it is a service that one has to pay for. But if the government would make stations, for example, or pull City's Ira access locations, then there's an immediate access by any person who needs more visual information to be able to get access to that stuff. Lauren Foote 52:35 Yeah, that's a great idea. And I would love to continue this conversation with you offline, too, because I know you're very well versed in this in this area, and your your insights would be so meaningful. Michael Hingson 52:45 Well, we could we could certainly talk about that. And would love to tell me more about your thesis and the things that are going on with it. Lauren Foote 52:52 Yeah, so it's all I can think about right now, actually, because I'm excited to be graduate. I'll be finishing in March. So it's coming up. I'm not done my thesis, I'm almost there. But yeah, so I'll be presenting it in March. And basically, I'm looking at Green corridors, which I said, are these interlinked green spaces, often with pathways, typically, in urban areas. And they are really important because they reduce urban flooding, increased biodiversity act as carbon sinks, so they take carbon out of the atmosphere, they reduce flooding, and they increase social and physical health and well being so they help humans as well. And it's just super interesting to me, because it combines my passion for environmental sustainability, and disability justice, and also active transportation, because moving through these corridors is a form of active transportation. And what I'm doing is and like I like I'm sure you can tell I'm a big fan of in person audits because they just capture things that can't be captured online or in a discussion even though those are valuable too. But I'm doing in person audits of these green corridors in Toronto with people with disabilities. I'm lucky I got some funding for it. So I'm able to hire people with disabilities to do these audits with me. And so far, I've received such valuable insight and feedback every me know that oh, and I think I've done nine or 10 audits so far. And I make for a few more. And the interesting thing is, like you said, with housing, like the very small, okay, maybe not small, but the cost would be very similar to doing to increase accessibility in these spaces. And a lot of things we find in terms of barriers is, is like I mentioned, a lack of QR codes on signage or lack of Braille on signage, a lack of lighting, which may be a little more expensive, but but not crazy in terms of in terms of these projects. And then certain things like there's 100 garden beds free to the public, but none of them are raised so people with wheelchairs can't go under intend to them if they want to. I Um, and there are a lot of things, some of the grid, some of the crosswalks don't have any audible indicator when the light changes. So it's they're relatively small things to change, which is actually really nice because when when I'm because I'm working with municipalities and not municipalities have project planners and people who are organizing these green corridors and designing these green corridors to discuss what can be changed and how they can make it more accessible. And it's a lot better to pitch more affordable things to companies, because they're a lot more on board with them when it's it's a low cost barrier, especially when, when they're on tight budgets. A lot of these are city projects that don't don't have huge budgets. So having these small, these small, very adjustments can make such a big difference in people's lives and create such an equitable and inclusive space. And the thing is it with environmental planning, it's, at least from a sustainability point of view, not less. So in general, it's relatively new in the planning realm, and it's gaining a lot of traction. And the issue we're seeing here is very similar to what I was talking about with transportation is, is all these it's what we're trying to fix and transportation is all these segregation and exclusionary approaches are kind of being reintroduced in environmental planning. These green spaces are being put in affluent communities, they're being put in predominantly white communities, they're being implemented without considering the needs of vulnerable people, like people with disabilities are not to say that people with disabilities are far more but systemically they face barriers that they shouldn't have to. And then that sense, it creates vulnerabilities that they shouldn't have to face, and cultural, cultural barriers as well. And, and so what's really cool is that this research, it aims to stop this cyclic exclusionary planning approach that aims to reimagine these spaces to create a more equitable place where people can enjoy it and aims to stop this cycle of exclusion of different groups. So it's really it's really cool. It's really fulfilling. And I think because it's kind of a new area of, of planning it, there's a lot of potential for it to be done in a adjust way. So it's nice to be able to have, and I've had a lot of positive feedback with the project managers I've been talking to. And they're all very keen to listen and to create things in a more equitable manner. So so I'm really fortunate in the sense that I've received possible positive feedback, and that I've had such great help from from other people with disabilities in the community too. Michael Hingson 57:37 Well, the things like Audible traffic signals are, of course, pretty expensive. And that would be yes, it needs to be used somewhat judiciously. And not every street needs to have an audible traffic signal. And you pointed it out, all the audible signal does is tells you that the lights change doesn't tell you that it's safe to go exactly and and I've seen way too many audible traffic signals in places where all you're doing is walking across the street, there's no complex intersection is just for curbs. And people still want to have audible traffic signals. And the fact of the matter is, it isn't going to make you more safe. If you're listening for traffic. And again, there are those people who can't. So there, there are other issues there. But the reality is when you've got a complex intersection like or a roundabout, roundabouts are a little different. But when you've got several streets coming into an intersection, that gets to be more fun. Lauren Foote 58:37 Yeah, imagine so. And the person I was talking with was was a blind person who did this audit with me. And for them, they found it really important. So So for people who might be more skilled at listening to traffic, like you or other people, it might not be as much of a as much of a need, but for some people, they find it necessary. And also, like I said, it doesn't necessarily tell you the direction, which is another interesting problem. It would be useful if it actually repeated or like stated where to go. But but it doesn't. But regardless, yeah, that would be something that would be less of a I guess they're in terms of recommendations. There's like, sooner nearer term recommendations, and then like, would be nice in the future recommendations. And that would be nice in the future recommendations. And then smaller things like raised garden beds, all you have to do is build a bed that someone can wheel under 100 beds. Yeah, it's simple. So so it's yeah, there's quite a nuance there. And honestly, and I guess I did bring up a more expensive one, but there are quite a few. Michael Hingson 59:38 Just a valid one to talk about as well. So last question, because we're going to have to run but tell me, what are you going to do once you get your master's degree? You graduate. So what are you going to do after you go off and graduate? Are you just going to go on and become a professional student and go get a PhD? Lauren Foote 59:58 We'll see about that. So, right now I'm just in finished master's degree mode. Yes, good for you. And I'm very excited about it. And I'm so grateful that I've been able to have this opportunity because it's really allowed me to help make the community more equitable. And it helped make places more inclusive for everyone, not just people with disabilities. And I find if always find it fulfilling to create equitable and inclusive communities. And I'm extremely passionate about disability justice. And I know that I'll be very happy in a role that allows me to create inclusive and barrier free communities. I'm only I'm only 25 years old. So I'm very happy that I've had this opportunity to achieve all this progress in the disability community so far

When hosting episodes of Unstoppable Mindset there is nothing more that I like than to get to learn from experts about subjects I have not addressed much before. This episode is one such endeavor and I bet most of you will feel the same way after hearing from our guest Dr. Juliëtte Sterkens. Juliëtte was born in the Netherlands and eventually relocated to the United States after doing her undergraduate work. You will hear how she moved her interests from speech language pathology to Audiology.   On this episode Juliëtte will tell us much about the field of audiology, especially about ways to offer hard of hearing persons more access to audio information than what traditional hearing aids provide. For me, having a Master's Degree got me the opportunity to understand much about the actual technology of loops and T-Coils.   Dr. Sterkens is quite passionate about her work and how much of an affect her efforts are having for many who cannot hear information in movie theaters, at conferences and even from televisions. On our episode you will even get a demonstration of the difference between traditional hearing aids and T-Coil technology. You will even hear about a study that addresses how hearing loss may contribute to dementia.   I look forward to hearing your thoughts once you finish this episode.     About the Guest:     Dr. Juliëtte Sterkens has over 40 years of experience in the field of audiology and hearing rehabilitation. Educated in the Netherlands as a Speech-Language Pathologist, she switched to the study of audiology after her marriage and move to Wisconsin in 1981. After attending a Hearing Loss Association of Wisconsin event, she discovered how hearing loops made a huge difference to her patients in Oshkosh WI and started the Oshkosh Hearing Loop Initiative in 2008. In 2012, now retired from private practice she became the Hearing Loss Association of America (HLAA) Professional Advisor for Hearing Loop Technology. Thanks to grant funding from a private family foundation, she has lectured in Norway, the UK, Canada, Hungary, Germany and extensively in the US, as well as authored articles on the topic of telecoils, hearing loops and hearing accessibility.   Her efforts have led to nearly 900 hearing loop installations in Wisconsin and many more around the USA. For her efforts she received several awards, including the Wisconsin Audiologist of the Year, Arizona School of Health Sciences 2013 Humanitarian of the Year, and the American Academy of Audiology Presidential Awards. She serves on the Hear in Fox Cities board, a small non-profit organization that provides hearing aids to youth and children in North-East Wisconsin.     Links for Dr. Sterkens:   www.LoopWisconsin.com, www.hearingloop.org and www.hearingloss.org/GITHL   For a 1 minute “What is a Hearing Loop?” video: www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlnx3ZImTw0   Hear for yourself how a loop makes a huge difference at Convention Center: www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcfqmVb-DmU   To learn more about hearing loss, and dealing with hearing loss, hearing aids and hearing loops:  www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHjXG4_Mi4Y   https://accessibe.com/blog/news/hearing-loops-provide-hearing-access-for-people-with-hearing-loss-   jsterkens@hearingloss.org       About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app.   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.     Transcription Notes Michael Hingson  00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i  capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson  01:20 Hi again, and welcome to unstoppable mindset. Today, we get to chat with Juliëtte Sterkens and Juliëtte started out as an audio pathologist. Well, she started out doing other things relating to audio, but now she's an expert in dealing with hearing loops, hearing aids and other things. And we're going to even get a demo in the course of today about what a hearing loop does, why it's better in a lot of cases, then a hearing aid and a number of other things. So I'm not going to give it all away. Where's the fun in that? So Juliëtte, welcome to unstoppable mindset. How are you?   Dr. Juliëtte Sterkens  01:58 I'm doing well. Thanks, Michael, for inviting me.   Michael Hingson  02:01 Well, thank you for coming on. I really appreciate you doing it. And I know that you have a lot to tell us about. So I'd love to start kind of at the beginning. You're from the Netherlands. So tell us a little bit about growing up there, what it was like school or anything else about your life, why you were in the Netherlands and why you went into what you went into and so on.   Dr. Juliëtte Sterkens  02:22 Michael, I was born to two Dutch parents. So that's how I lived in the Netherlands. My father was in the military. And we moved around quite a bit during my youth. So the nice thing about that is I have friends all over the country. Of course, the Netherlands isn't very big. And in 1976, after I graduated from high school, I enrolled in a program to become a logo pedorthist that is a speech pathologist speech language pathologist. But in the Netherlands, it also includes being a teacher for the deaf. So it also includes a Coupe de. But about a couple of weeks into my program, I met an American officer in the military, met him in a scuba diving club. And he and I dated two years while he was stationed in the Netherlands. And then he moved back to the states we dated long distance three years, I finished my schooling. My parents wanted me to work before just moving to the United States. I'm sure that we're hoping I would meet a lovely person in the Netherlands. But anyway, our love persisted. And I moved to the United States in 1981. And at that point, I had to choose whether I wanted to continue in speech language pathology, or whether I wanted to switch careers into audiology. And that's how come I switched and enrolled at the University of Wisconsin in their audiology program, and in 1983. I graduated as a newly minted American audiologist.   Michael Hingson  04:21 Well, of course, one of the questions that has to come up is since you moved to the US, your parents have accepted love and and the two of you together.   Dr. Juliëtte Sterkens  04:33 They sure have They sure have. I also am the proud. I don't want to call it owner. But we have two children and of my three sisters. I'm the only one with grandchildren. From my marriage. I have a sister who has bonus kids, but I have two children. And that meant that they came to visit me frequent ugly, of course. And we've also made the trek back to the Netherlands many times.   Michael Hingson  05:07 Why did you have to switch from speech pathology into audiology?   Dr. Juliëtte Sterkens  05:14 That's a good question. The ASHA the American Speech and Hearing the association certifies speech pathologists, as well as audiologist and they're two different fields of studies. And when I went to school, I had to get a master's degree. And I literally had to choose, do you want to become a speech pathologist? Do you want to become an audiologist. And at that time, I had already done some work at an audiology center in the Netherlands. I really enjoyed the field. I wanted to get more involved in the Netherlands, I didn't work with hearing aids and fit hearing aids. But in the US, audiologists not only do the hearing testing, but they also fit hearing aids. And that was just an area that fascinated me. So I switched. And I had it was a very small program at UW Oshkosh, but very involved in the community, and well known in Northeast Wisconsin for testing children. And that wasn't an area that I was very interested in. So I was very lucky, great professor, great fellow students, some of which are still friends to this day. Hard to believe it's almost 40 years ago since I graduated. What is the   Michael Hingson  06:45 difference between speech, pathology and audiology?   Dr. Juliëtte Sterkens  06:51 So speech pathologists are far more involved with speech, articulation, ameliorating the effects from strokes, helping kids that have cerebral palsy, have difficulty speaking, helping children in this country to acquire speech and language if they're hard of hearing, or deaf. And audiologists are far more involved with hearing with the ear. And in in some, not me, not me personally, but there's many audiologists involved in the testing of balance, as well. Balance and hearing.   Michael Hingson  07:34 So, you said not you, what is it that you do?   Dr. Juliëtte Sterkens  07:39 Well, back in 1983, I got hired as an audiologist in a private practice in Oshkosh. And in that office, we did hearing testing, industrial hearing testing, but we also did hearing aid fittings. And that's really the area that I eventually specialized in hearing aid fittings, helping people with hearing loss either acquired at or before birth, or acquired at a later age, to live successfully with hearing loss and help them adapt to hearing aids.   Michael Hingson  08:19 And so, you've done a lot of work and a lot of research and you've done a lot of speaking, right, haven't you as far as traveling around to talk about this topic?   Dr. Juliëtte Sterkens  08:29 I have. But really, what I probably should explain to the viewers or to the listeners first is that hearing loss is kind of misunderstood, right? In the sense that people think that hearing aids are like eyeglasses, if you have vision difficulties, unless it's macular degeneration, eyeglasses can essentially restore poor vision to near normal. And they think that hearing aids can restore hearing to normal. The problem is that hearing aids can't do that don't do that. Hearing aids at best correct for about half of the degree of hearing loss. And that means that people with hearing loss will continue to have difficulties hearing or understanding they see hearing, but in effect, they have difficulties understanding speech. When people speak fast, when there's background noise when people have accents. Hearing aids, in effect, pick up all the background noise and making it very difficult for that impaired ear to pick out the speech from the noise. So when a person wears or gets hearing aids, they're frequently surprised, you know, they think that they're gonna hear like they did when they were 25. For example, if I'm dealing with somebody who was worked in a lot of noise or farmed. And then as an audiologist, I would have to explain well, hearing aids can help, but they don't give you normal hearing. But, but there are workarounds, there are things that we can do to help overcome the limitations that your hearing loss imposes on you or that the hearing aids imposed on you. And just one simple example, on most hearing aids nowadays come or can come equipped with TV transmitters. So you plug in a little dongle in the back of your TV. And when you watch television, the TV sends the audio wirelessly to the hearing aids. So it's like you're hearing under earphones, it's fantastic, right? Hearing aids come with little microphones that you can clip on somebody's lapel, if you're driving in a car. And now you can hear that person very close to the microphone. But in public places people have trouble hearing. And could be a church could be a house of worship, could be a theater, could be a library meeting room, the hearing aids are really had their effective range is about three to six feet. For some people, it might be nine feet or 10 feet. But there is a limited range for hearing aids work well. And beyond that distance, they're going to pick up a lot of background noise and reverberation. And as a radio man, you know about that, you know, you know that you need to speak close to your microphone, because if you don't, your voice isn't gonna sound good on the recording. So for years, Miko, I explained to my patients that if they would go to the theater, if they would go to the church, they should pick up what is called an assistive listening device. And that's when people go, what the heck is an assistive listening device. Assistive Listening Devices, or systems or assistive listening systems are devices or systems mandated under the Americans with Disabilities Act, a law that you're very familiar with that law mandates that light switches have to be at a certain height in a room, that there needs to be enough clearance in the door so someone with a wheelchair can get in. And there's Braille signs installed in places so that people like you can read the Braille information and know whether to go right or left to the bathroom. Am I right?   Michael Hingson  12:52 As far as it goes? Course you need to know where the Braille sign is. And if absolute route, you don't, you don't get the information. So there are limitations to all of that. But I hear what you're saying.   Dr. Juliëtte Sterkens  13:03 Yes. And so these assistive listening systems were being installed. But they are, but the systems man required that the consumer would go to a service desk and pick up a listening device. And that means, you know, how do you know when you go to the theater that you have trouble hearing until the show starts right? So now you're going to go have to go back to the service desk, pick up a listening device and sit down? My experience was Michael, that my patients didn't bother with these systems. They didn't want to use these systems. Well, fast forward to 2008. I am at a meeting for consumers who are hard of hearing. And a professor from Hope College in Michigan came to speak about a topic called hearing loops. And I'm the only audiologist in the room and that it was familiar with hearing loops. They were already in schools for the deaf and hard of hearing in the Netherlands back in the 70s when I was going to school, but they were not being used in this country. And Dave Meyers started to explain how he had been able to foster hearing loops in Western Michigan, to great benefit of the users and maybe a little sidebar. A hearing loop is an assistive listening system that broadcasts the audio from the PA system wirelessly to the hearing aid as long as the hearing aid as a telecoil built in.   Michael Hingson  14:52 What isn't so coil.   Dr. Juliëtte Sterkens  14:53 It's a little copper coil, a little tiny coil that's maybe two millimeters. in height and millimeter in width, that is embedded in hearing aids and has been in hearing aids for 5060 years. And if you have a T coil in your hearing aid, and there is a hearing loop installed, when you go to the theater, you don't have to go to the front desk and pick up a system or a listening device, you can just sit, activate the telecoil on the hearing aid, generally, it means pushing a button on a hearing aid, and activate that feature in your hearing aid. And now the sound from the PAC system starts streaming direct in the hearing aid. And suddenly, the consumer, the user of the hearing aid, who was really struggling to hear voices from the stage, or from a lectern, or from an altar, can hear that audio wirelessly direct in their ear. And and if the hearing aid is programmed properly, it'll do so without any background noise.   Michael Hingson  16:09 Oh, and that? Oh, go ahead. No,   Dr. Juliëtte Sterkens  16:11 go ahead. Ask your question.   Michael Hingson  16:13 How is that different? Or why is that more effective than what you described earlier, which is the person who gets a hearing aid that has technology that plugs into the television then broadcast to the hearing,   Dr. Juliëtte Sterkens  16:28 ah, this technology that is used for little remote microphones or televisions is Bluetooth technology. But that it's the sound transmission is happening via Bluetooth. That technology cannot be used in live events, because there is a significant delay of the audio. Because of the processing that's happening, the sound has to come from a Bluetooth transmitter, go to a smartphone from the smartphone to the hearing aid. And if the Wi Fi in the building isn't very fast, the audio arrives in the ear at great latencies. So there is no at this time, public assistive listening systems that use Bluetooth that happen in real time. And for that reason, we use FM, infrared, or hearing loop technology for publicly installed assistive listening systems.   Michael Hingson  17:45 So the the coil and the loop on the loop is actually transmitting FM then that's the coil receives is that what I'm gathering   Dr. Juliëtte Sterkens  17:58 is what you're what's happening. The hearing loop, in its simplest form is a copper wire installed around the perimeter of a seated area. So let's say it's a meeting room, there's a hearing loop installed in the floor or in the ceiling. When an audio signal is is amplified through that wire, it creates changes in the magnetic field. And the coil, of course, can be magnetically induced, that signal can be picked up by the little coil in the hearing aid with the exact same clarity as the audio that's being broadcast by the   Michael Hingson  18:43 wire. How does the information get to the loop   Dr. Juliëtte Sterkens  18:49 from a microphone. So a hearing loop system needs to be connected to a microphone from a PA system that's installed in a room. So first and foremost, there has to be a PA system in the room, there has to be a microphone being used at the lectern, that signal isn't only sent to the speakers so that the audio is broadcast into the room. That signal is also broadcast to a hearing loop amplifier. And the amplifier is broadcasting the audio via electromagnetic waves into the room that the hearing aid can pick up.   Michael Hingson  19:34 So that's even different than you'd mentioned FM before. So you're not even really using FM there. No you're not. Unless you have a microphone that that does FM that goes to the PA system that goes to the loop.   Dr. Juliëtte Sterkens  19:47 Yes. So there are assistive listening systems that use FM technology. But that requires every user of the system to go and pick up an FM receiver, right. And frequently they come with headphones. Right and the headphones are generic, are not specifically programmed for the user's hearing aids. And the telecoil. And the hearing aid that the consumers wearing is programmed specifically for their hearing loss. So activating a telecoil, in a hearing aid and hearing in the loop means that the consumer hears the sound as it was meant for their individual prescription. So, in the grand scheme of things, if a consumer is either asked to go to a service desk and pick up a listening device, or just walk into a facility sit down, and when the show starts, turn on a telecoil. In the hearing aid, what do you suppose the consumer will choose?   Michael Hingson  21:00 They're gonna choose the thing that will give them the greatest ability to hear or to get the information that is that is actually being provided. So of course, they're going to use the looping the coil, if they have   Dr. Juliëtte Sterkens  21:14 they often they are, and it's, and it's so convenient. And so when I heard Dr. David Meyer speak in 2008, and he mentioned how hearing loops, were making a comeback, greater awareness of the ADEA and the requirement that these systems have to be hearing aid compatible. I just went, Oh, my God. I mean, there's the solution to my patient's problems. And basically, all I wanted to do Michael is helped my patients here in Oshkosh, Wisconsin, if I can get these loops installed in churches, and in the Oshkosh Grand Opera House, my patients are just going to think this is wonderful. And it was it blew my patients away how they could go to the church, and sit down and activate their telecoil. And here and from from starting what I initially call the Oshkosh hearing loop initiative, I also ended up seeing patients and Nina from Nina, I'm from Appleton and they want loops in their churches. So pretty soon it kind of blossomed out to the Fox Valley area, we are about an hour south of Green Bay, in Wisconsin. And then I also started educating audiologists in the state why this is good, not only for their patients, but it's also good for them. If your patients, if if the places where your patients do the most complaining about their hearing aids, if you can make them among their best places to hear, they're going to love you not only that, they're going to talk very positively about hearing aids, they're going to encourage their friends to look into this. So it's good PR, it's good advertising.   Michael Hingson  23:18 So a hearing. But so a loop essentially goes around the whole room perimeter.   Dr. Juliëtte Sterkens  23:27 It's there's different kinds of loop configurations. If a building doesn't have a lot of metal if it's an older structure, for example, now I'm just a Lutheran Church in Oshkosh. With a basement and community gathering space underneath the sanctuary. The loop can literally be installed as one big loop around the seated area in the church and the loop will not only broadcast the audio into the church itself into the sanctuary, but also into the basement. If a facility has a lot of metal, for example, a library meeting room with a lot of Reem steel reinforced concrete. That facility will require what is called a phased array loop. And it's an array of multiple wires in the shape of loops that are laid on top of each other in order to create a strong enough signal. So there's much more involved than me saying, Oh, you have to do a string or a wire around the perimeter of a room. And that's why train loop installers are so important in this process.   Michael Hingson  24:47 How expensive is it to install? Whoop, yeah. You know, that's going to be a question that come it's   Dr. Juliëtte Sterkens  24:54 absolutely going to be a question. Now. Do people ask you how expensive it is? To install real signs, or install wheelchair ramps, oh, sure. You get that question also. Okay, well, and   Michael Hingson  25:15 it's even well, when it comes to wheelchair ramps, it's Oh, it's too expensive, I can't afford to do that now. And the ADEA, I won't say gives them an out. But the ADEA says, unless you're doing other major modification to a building, then you don't need to go off a modifier to install the ramp. But if you're modifying then you have to include the ramp. Of course, if you're building a new building, the cost to put in a ramp is negligible, if anything at all, because you just designed it in. So it's all in the after part after market part where those costs come in for Braille signs. Again, there are assumptions as to how expensive or not it really is, so that the questions do come up. Yeah,   Dr. Juliëtte Sterkens  26:06 that's me know what, that's a very interesting perspective for me to learn about. In in Wisconsin, a lot of hearing loops are being installed in the price ranges of three 510 $1,000. It really again, it depends on the amount of metal in the building, the size of the facility, the size of the room that you want looped, and the cost of hiding the wire, the effort required to hide the wire. So if there's carpet tiles in the meeting room, they can just easily be pulled up. Sure, flat, flat wire can be installed underneath the carpet tiles, carpet tiles go down. And literally, it can be done in a day, in a couple of hours. They can also be installed in the ceiling. But you're absolutely right. If you're dealing with very large facilities, where there's permanent carpeting installed, now the carpeting has to be cut, right, and that people are leery of having that done. So in in Oshkosh, I found that the places that aren't even mandated to have this to have assistive listening systems installed, were the most receptive, and those were houses of worship. Because where do people go 5060 times a year, and want to hear need to hear, right. So a lot of my effort in the beginning, circled around places that I knew were remodeling. Places that I knew would be receptive. And those were the houses of worship my patients belong to. And, literally, I would go to meetings, if there was a new school in the process of being installed, I would reach out to the school or to the architects, a lot of my work has involved reaching out to architects who think that assist of all assistive listening systems are alike. And if that's the case, let's put in the cheapest one course. And that's an FM system. But there's much greater awareness among consumers. I have done a lot of work around the country educating hearing care professionals. And the Hearing Loss Association of America H L. A. They have started what is called a get in the hearing loop program. They are literally actively advocating on behalf of consumers with hearing loss.   Michael Hingson  29:02 Well, it's interesting, this is truly all about, if you will, electrical or electronic induction. Yes, having grown up in a science oriented world, I understand what electric transformers are, you know, we hear all the time about transformers and now a lot of the technology is a little bit different but really a transformer the thing that you would plug in and you would then get a stepped up current or voltage or whatever was all about induction. And we won't go into transformer theory here but it's perfectly understandable. Anyone that studies electricity and electronics. Why this system kind of works because the Europe you're literally just creating a magnetic field and the coil is the other part of if you will the transformer that is integrated into a hearing aid Were into an assisted living device, and is picking up the magnetic pulse changes from the loop. So directly from an electronic standpoint, this is electrically trivial. There's nothing new that we haven't known for years.   Dr. Juliëtte Sterkens  30:16 No, no, and but the issue has been that consumers aren't educated about this technology, they don't even know this type of accommodation exists. And there has been some resistance on behalf of the hearing care professionals who say, well, but putting a telecoil in a hearing aid makes it bigger, makes the hearing aid bigger. And while that is true, it also makes the hearing aid a lot more useful, a lot more beneficial. So it's, it's educating not just the consumer, but the hearing care professional that in the end, the consumer, where's the hearing aid to hear better, right. And it is up to the hearing care professionals to educate consumers, that these types of systems and technologies exist. So there's a lot of people who are walking on this earth with hearing aids that have built in telecoils. But the telecoil may have never been activated, it needs to be activated in the computer by the hearing care professional, the hearing care professional may have never demonstrated the benefit of a hearing loop. So I would love for the listeners to demonstrate what a hearing loop can do. And I have a little audio demonstration that if you would permit me, I'd be happy to play that so that the listeners can hear what the difference is all about. Sure,   Michael Hingson  32:03 let's do that. And you go ahead and set that up. And I will just explain what Juliet is doing is she's going to share her screen. She's enabled her audio, so that we'll be able to hear this demo and what you're going to hear I have not heard it all the way through. But what you will hear is what essentially, a person not close to a stage will hear just with a hearing aid. And then as I understand it, the telecoil will be activated.   Dr. Juliëtte Sterkens  32:33 Correct. So the first half is the audio as if it were coming through the hearing aids microphone, and the second half is as if it's coming through the loop. So let's see if technology works here we got right. She was dreading   32:52 getting older. What's the only way to avoid getting to die right now we all want to live a long life. We don't want to get older in order sitting there and are the young people in their 20s and 30s and 40s, making fun of older people making cracks about older people. They're making fun of what they themselves are going to become.   Michael Hingson  33:18 And it's clearer what happened there because at first what we were hearing was the microphone in the hearing aid picking up not only the speaker from some distance away, but all the other ambient sounds. Yeah, and no matter how directional, you make a microphone, it's still going to pick up What's between you and the person speaking. But then when the the loop and the coil were activated, or the loop was activated all along. But when the coil was activated, now you're hearing just what comes from the loop. So the only way you would hear ambient noise besides the speaker speaking is if the speaker's microphone picked up that information,   Dr. Juliëtte Sterkens  34:06 Michael II that's really perceptive. The hearing aid can be programmed to still pick up some ambient sound, because you can imagine, if you're very hard of hearing, and you switch your hearing aid to telecoil you stop being able to hear your own voice. You no longer hear the person sitting to your left or your right at that meeting. You're only hearing what's coming through the mic from the PA system. And that can be kind of isolating. And and in church, you can't hear yourself sing right. And so as an audiologist I can program the hearing aid to pick up ambient sound, but turn down the sensitivity by by five or by six or by 10 DESA Pulse so you can still hear, but it's a lot quieter. And that makes the sound from the loop stand out even more. So that the understanding the you know, the signal to noise ratio is improved to a level where you can just sit back and hear and follow the meeting with ease. And it blew my patients away. I mean, I had patients tell me, after they had an experience in a loop, one, one person told me and this is a gentleman who was very hard of hearing was only wearing one hearing aid, the other ear was deaf. And he said to me, I can hear so well in the loop. So that's what it must be like to be normal hearing. And he had been hard of hearing his whole life. But hearing in a loop can be life changing for people who have lost a lot of their hearing. And that's really what motivates me. And it was the reason I stepped out of my practice ankle. Back in 2012, I gave up my audiology practice, to become the H. L. A. 's national hearing loop advocate. And you know, Michael, of course, it helps that I like to talk. But I so I do a lot of consumer education, a lot of public speaking, professional meetings, lot of lectures, and then when the pandemic hits. It also gave me a new way to reach out to people via zoom. So I've done lots of zoom lectures about the technology, and just trying to reach more and more people. So you inviting me to this podcast is huge, because you've got a listenership different, you know, the more people hear of this technology, they go, wait, I may not use hearing aids, but my mom does. Or my dad or I have a neighbor, or I have a friend, or I belong to a church. And why do we have this in our church? No. And I'm really proud to tell you that we're almost at 500 churches in Wisconsin, almost 900 places have installed these hearing loop systems. And it's kind of moving by word of mouth, because they work. They work well. And once they're installed, it's like electrical wire. Once it's installed, you're done.   Michael Hingson  37:40 Going back to something that you said earlier. Today, in our world with hearing aids being manufactured in an ever increasing number, how many of the hearing aids include the little telecoils?   Dr. Juliëtte Sterkens  37:57 Yeah, the percentages vary for people who are severely hard of hearing. So these are people who without a hearing aid, can barely hear normal conversation or people to whom we have to shout in order to be barely heard. The numbers are between 50 and 90%. And frankly, it depends a little bit on the philosophy of the audiologist. My philosophy was, was really about giving my my patients as many tools in their hearing aid toolkit as I could give them. And some audiologists are perhaps working with manufacturers where the telecoil indeed makes the hearing aid a little bit larger. And in when that happens. They they may opt for the smaller hearing aid rather than ask the patient, where do you not want to hear? Right? I mean, you're getting a hearing aid to hear and the consumer doesn't really understand that the hearing aid is still a compromise. So a lot of my outreach has also been to educate consumers, how to buy hearing aids, what are the features that are important that they look at? And certainly if people are watching or listening to this recording, there's a website called hearing loss.org that is H L A's national website where there's lots of good information for consumers about hearing, living with hearing. We're living with hearing loss, how to buy hearing aids and there's also a website called hearing loop.org That is the website from Dr. David Myers at Hope College, it's only informational website so that consumers can learn more about hearing loops themselves.   Michael Hingson  40:15 So, again, though, going back to the discussion of hearing aid, manufacturing, there are still a number of hearing aids that are being constructed without putting the coils in them.   Dr. Juliëtte Sterkens  40:30 Correct? Alex some of it, why   Michael Hingson  40:35 not? How expensive? How expensive? Is it? To truly put a coil in maybe a better way to put it as why don't we just do it at all hearing aids? Because you don't know where they're going to end up?   Dr. Juliëtte Sterkens  40:45 Exactly. I wish you would come with me, when I talk to the hearing aid manufacturers and ask that common sense question. The coil itself has been estimated to add between two and $5 to the cost of a hearing aid. But to integrate it in the software in the programming of the device, obviously, there's a greater expense involved. And it's my understanding that there can be some interference with the coil, and the recharge ability of the hearing aid. So what we're seeing is that there are some rechargeable hearing aids on the market, where they don't add a telecoil to the device. But the manufacturers have heard me I've been very vocal at conferences, and meetings with manufacturers. And the manufacturers have now added telecoils to the remote microphones. So if you are listening to this broadcast, and you think I have a hearing aid, but I don't think I have a T coil all is not lost, you may be able to get access to the signals from hearing loops. If you ask if your audiologist can provide you with a remote control that has the T coil built in, it becomes a little bit more cumbersome, or a little bit trickier to use. Think of my mother who's 96. You know, she can find the push button on the hearing aid, but she would have a heck of a time with remote control and keeping a charge and all that other extra stuff that you have to do.   Michael Hingson  42:32 Yeah, and that's understandable. So it gets back to ease of use. What do you think, is the ramification for all this of now the FDA saying that we don't need to have prescriptions for hearing aids, which I would think is going to cause prices to drop, but also numbers of hearing aids probably to increase.   Dr. Juliëtte Sterkens  42:59 The good news is that there are some over the counter devices that have telecoils built in. So there aren't many. But there are a couple that have the T coil built in. And there's outreach being done to other manufacturers to include the telecoil. Again, because it doesn't add a lot to the expense of the devices. The over the counter devices, I think will make people more aware that something can be done. They may not be as adjustable to their specific hearing loss. They may not have the same sound. They may not be as durable. As some of the hearing aid devices. I mean, these hearing aid devices. I've worked with hearing aids that could easily last 6789 years. Imagine worn on your ears where you perspire, handled dirt and dust and what have you but these hearing aids keep on going. And I wonder about the durability of over the counter devices, are they going to be the same? And is the consumer going to know how to clean them how to maintain them what to do when they get earwax in them. The audiologist does a lot more than fitting the hearing aid. They counsel patients, you know how to live better with hearing loss or how they maintain the hearing aid. I used to see some people back every three or four months just because of the problems that they had with earwax and others I would only see once a year or only when they had a problem. But these over the counter devices, it means that the consumer has to become the expert. Right. And what are they going to do when the hearing aid malfunctions so they're going to take it back to Best Buy?   Michael Hingson  44:58 Yeah, that's, of course is the issue isn't it?   Dr. Juliëtte Sterkens  45:01 At this the issue, it is, you know, you can buy readers and they work for run of the mill difficulties with your eyes if you can no longer see fine print. But if you have great differences between eyes like I have, or if you have a astigmatism those glasses aren't going to work very   Michael Hingson  45:24 well for you. Right. But in, in, in reality there are there other reasons why glasses won't help other than just with age related macular degeneration. But but the reality is that we haven't collectively chosen to deal with that either. And I think that's what I'm hearing is the same thing. Regarding hearing because we, we just don't yet consider it the priority, it probably needs to be   Dr. Juliëtte Sterkens  45:56 now and and of course the baby boomers are aging, Michael, big time, you know, the oldest ones are turning is it's 77 this year. And we know that while hearing loss, its origins are going to start in your 30s and 40s. You know, with as far as hearing loss goes, it's important not to be exposed to noise. It's important to live a healthy life, it's also important to choose your parents wisely, because if they had hearing trouble, the odds are you are going to be dealing with it also. But hearing loss definitely accelerates in our 70s and 80s. I've seen this very clearly with my mother. And she's now to the point where she has to wear her hearing aids all the time. Otherwise, she misses out. And she does like to do that. And that means that as the baby boomers age, I think there will be more and more attention paid to the fact that hearing has a significant effect on our quality of life. And there's now also some studies to show that having hearing loss is a contributing factor to an earlier onset of dementia, it doesn't mean it's going to cause dementia, but it's going to contribute an untreated hearing loss has been identified as one of those risk factors. So   Michael Hingson  47:38 I use this Do you have any notion if you don't   Dr. Juliëtte Sterkens  47:41 hear well, if you kind of checkout, so to speak of conversation, if you're not involved with hearing, that part of the brain is no longer stimulated. And it means that you have to pay more attention to hearing you have to allocate if you will, more of your available brainpower to hear and that's taxing on a person. And so if you if you have it somewhere in your genetic makeup, the fact that you may be prone to dementia. If there is a family member with dementia, and you have beginning hearing loss, I would be the first person to go and do something about my hearing. Because I know that having hearing loss contributes accelerates the onset of dementia, if you will. So that's usually when people say, well, when should I start with hearing aids? I said if you have hearing loss, if there is a risk factor, if your parents have hearing loss, that means that you could be at risk for greater hearing loss as you age. And then if there's dementia in the family, I would start sooner rather than   Michael Hingson  49:14 later. I'm curious to see if if you're aware of this in any way. Have any similar studies been done regarding the whole concept of eyesight and loss of eyesight? Do you know I don't.   Dr. Juliëtte Sterkens  49:32 After a great question, though. Yes, yeah. Yes, I'm gonna make a note of it myself. So if I find anything, I'll let you know,   Michael Hingson  49:40 please. It would be interesting to know about that. Because I think that my belief anyway, is that the reality is we get a lot more information. Each of us gets a lot more information from what We hear than what we see no matter how good our eyesight is, because eyesight is still only really? What about 100? If that much 180 degrees roughly. So you don't hear what's you don't see what's behind you, you don't see what's above you unless you look. And typically you look because you hear. And so yeah, go ahead.   Dr. Juliëtte Sterkens  50:23 Yeah. All right ears, it just one example how incredible our ears are, right? First of all, they're attached to her brain, which is very important in the point that I'm trying to make, in that if you go to the beach, Michael, you don't have sight. But if I close my eyes, I can hear the birds flying up above. In front of me, I can hear the little children behind me, I can hear cars going to a parking lot. I can hear the waves, I can hear the wind. And I mean, it's a it's a complete scape. I can I can hear all this by just simply paying attention. And if I hear people talk, and I think they use the word Juliet in conversation, oh my God, my brain is just gonna go zoom, and try and focus on what these people are saying, because I think they're talking about me. When you were hearing aids, when you were hearing aids, Michael, all the sound is right in the ear, the ability to, to focus on sounds in the front and in the back. And the and up above and below, is diminished. And that's it's really it goes from 3d to maybe 2d or 1d. And that means that consumers really have a hard time picking out voices from background noise, no matter how good the hearing aids are,   Michael Hingson  52:11 are there any technological advances coming that will be able to reintroduce that multi dimensional sound scape, so that people will be able to tell directionality again,   Dr. Juliëtte Sterkens  52:28 not that I'm aware of what I am aware of, is that there is a lot of work being done on Bluetooth LE audio. And that's eventually going to allow somebody with a smartphone to share audio from their phone to multiple headsets. And the hope the hope it's not been accomplished yet, is that there will be a public assistive listening system available with Bluetooth LE audio as well. They've named the technology aura cast. And that might mean that the silent televisions at airports can be made audible if a consumer uses their smartphone and wireless ear plugs. But eventually, it would also mean that there could be audio broadcast from public places direct into hearing aids. Now, hearing aids are very small. They have very small antennas. We don't know what kind of audio delays they're going to be. But the Bluetooth special interest group is working very hard to try and include hearing aids as individual receivers for the broadcast of Bluetooth LE audio. And while they hope that this is going to happen in a year or two, I think it's going to take much longer. But if that happens, people with hearing aids are going to be able to hear announcements at an airport, get the audio from their TV or their smartphone and in church if the church has this technology installed, the hear this technology in their hearing aids. But it will it's it's it's a heavy lift, if you will consumers will all need new hearing aids all need new smart phones. I mean these dongles have to be installed the world over while there are a lot of countries including the UK that have mandated hearing loop technology as the technology of choice. So there has to have been some change made some changes in the law for that too. happen, I estimate about 10 years or so,   Michael Hingson  55:04 there is something called binaural sound and binaural microphones where you can have a microphone or two microphones that actually give you the ability to record directionality. And you can use earphones and actually hear the sound that sounds like, well, it could be coming from any direction. And I've seen and heard some really great demonstrations of binaural sound where listening through regular earphones, It even sounds like a person is behind me and talking. But they're using these microphones. They're not overly expensive. But it would be interesting to see how somebody could bring some of that binaural technology into what happens with hearing aids.   Dr. Juliëtte Sterkens  55:53 Yeah. And of course, it would require the use of microphones. And everything hinges on Well, proper use of microphones, as you're   Michael Hingson  56:03 sure. Yeah. But it's it is something to look at as the demand grows for being able to have technology that allows people to hear better. Yeah, so it will be interesting to see how good   Dr. Juliëtte Sterkens  56:20 I am. My guess is, yeah, my guess is that the gaming industry will be all over this.   Michael Hingson  56:27 So the gaming industry should, it would make it more possible for if they did it right. For me to be able to play games than it does. If you talk about virtual reality, if they truly did that, and built in the rest of the interfacing technology to allow me to be able to access games. You're right, it would be interesting, and it would be worth doing. I have a question that is unrelated somewhat to all this, you have used the term deaf and hard of hearing. And you have avoided hearing impaired why.   Dr. Juliëtte Sterkens  57:08 Generally, and and you know, there's people who are hard of hearing, who don't like the term hard of hearing, they call themselves a person with hearing loss. Some people prefer the term hard of hearing. A lot of people don't like the term hearing impaired. And why I think it's it's much more a it's a sensitivity, you know, how they feel about their own hearing loss. So if you're born hard of hearing, it is what it is. But your hearing isn't impaired it if you were born that way. But if I have not used the word DEAF, is that in the in the heart of hearing community, Deaf implies that there is no ability to hear sound. And people like that generally don't wear hearing aids. They use sign language and estimates estimates are between one and 3% of all people with hearing loss are essentially deaf and use sign language to communicate. The other 97%. use hearing aids to hear speech. And so frequently they don't use the you use the term deaf although sometimes they will. Just to make it simple. You know, they say I am deaf. And then people think, oh, this person can't hear. No worries, I will wave to you when it's time to board the airplane, for example.   Michael Hingson  58:55 Yeah, in our society, and this is why I asked the question, not setting you up. But just to make the dichotomy comparison, we still refer to people as blind or visually impaired and visually impaired has two connotation problems one visually, I don't think that overall, you can say I'm different, because I happen to not see so visually, I don't look different. And impaired. Again, the same thing. And I think that's exactly what you say. We're not impaired. But that's still what we use because people so greatly emphasize eyesight over anything else. And if we've heard something today, with you, that makes a lot of sense. It's in reality, we do get more information from what we hear, but we don't tend to focus on that because we are taught that without eyesight and to a degree without being able to hear we're just lost souls and that's just not the way it is at all. Now   Dr. Juliëtte Sterkens  59:59 and A the Hearing Loss Association of America once a year has a conference. And it's you know, in different areas of the country, it's anywhere between, you know, 515 100 people who attend these conferences, and people with hearing loss. You know, it's a spectrum, I want to call it the spectrum disorder, some people have very mild hearing loss, but their ears have so much trouble discriminating speech, that they really struggle and almost function as if they're deaf. And there are people who are very hard of hearing, but as long as they're wearing a hearing aid, or a cochlear implant, they do quite well. But, you know, these, these come the conferences focuses on how to live better with hearing loss, what technology can do for you. I mean, there have been such tremendous changes, and improvements in technology, that IF listeners have family members who are very hard of hearing, or are really struggling with hearing aids, I encourage them to look into cochlear implants, they can be life changing. Cochlear implants can be of benefit of people who have lost almost all of their hearing, and with the implant are able to hear, again, at the three to six foot distance with great ease. So lots of technology upgrades, but there's still devices with microphones on the ears. And for that reason, they still need assistive technology. And that's why, you know, I won't be without work as a hearing loop advocate.   Michael Hingson  1:01:53 For a long time. You mentioned to me somewhere on the line that you're doing some work with Google Maps? We are and that if you would   Dr. Juliëtte Sterkens  1:02:01 well, but it's I'm very excited to tell to talk about this, because as a consumer, how do you know where a hearing loop is installed? Right. There are some websites that try and keep track of where these loops are installed. But Google Maps as part of his accessibility feature, are is now permitting businesses to list hearing loops as an accommodation. And you're probably familiar with the fact that Google Maps lists whether a place is accessible for wheelchair users, whether the bathrooms are accessible, or whether they have wheelchair ramps, while they now also permit the dimensioning of assistive hearing loops. And the best place at this time to go is the hearing loss. That org website and Google the word Kiddle. Git H L, which stands for get in the hearing loop, because the hearing loop advocates in the Hearing Loss Association have developed a complete toolkit and the Google Maps toolkit so that we can educate consumers how to find these hearing loops on the web. And if you don't find one, but you sure wish there was one. We teach people how to write reviews on Google Maps. Because you know, reviews work when you go to a restaurant, what do you do? I personally check the reviews before I make a reservation. And so if these reviews list that consumers love the hearing loop that they have installed, businesses are going to be more aware that this type of accommodation pays off is important, right?   Michael Hingson  1:04:07 Absolutely. Before we close, I thought it would be fun to do one more demo with something that we did before we started. And I do it because I want people to understand why we do the podcast the way we do because I always ask people who come on to provide us with them using a microphone and not just a built in laptop microphone, and I'm going to show you why. It's important that like you did today your audio was great. You use a headset. Here's what it sounds like. If you're listening or if you're speaking to me and you're just using your laptop computer microphone, check this out. Okay, I have now switched to the microphone built into my camera, and you can hear what the total difference is. It's one Trouble. And this is what we don't ever like to get on podcasts. Because what we want people to be able to do is to hear our patch podcasts Well, right?   Dr. Juliëtte Sterkens  1:05:11 That's right. That's right. And you know, and Michael, I have done that same demonstration just by removing my headset and moving it about two feet. This is about as far as my arms reach. And now I'll put the microphone back on my ears. And people go, Whoa, that's a huge   Michael Hingson  1:05:31 difference. Well, huge difference. And even the reverberations are less from your microphone than they are from the laptop microphone, which is omnidirectional and supposed to be able to pick things up from a distance. But it sounds horrible.   Dr. Juliëtte Sterkens  1:05:46 It sounds horrible. And because we've all been on Zoom, we are far more aware. But people with as a normal hearing person, one can accommodate for those changes, it takes more effort. But I could listen to you if I had to, right. But a person with hearing loss, who is already hanging on by their fingertips, so to speak, in order to hear you because maybe you talk fast, or maybe you have an accent. If you talk through your video microphone, that person will fall off the cliff, their fingers, they're gonna have to let go, because they struggle already so much. And I'll be honest, I didn't realize how much my patients were struggling in those public places until I got involved with hearing loops. And then it was the quarter dropped just like, well, of course, they can hear better in the loop. And so that just motivated me to go at this even harder. And I'm happy to say it's a message that's resonating around the world around the country, and people are listening and your podcast. Thank you, Michael is going to make a difference.   Michael Hingson  1:07:16 Well, I hope so. And we really appreciate you being here as well tell me and tell the folks listening, how can they maybe reach out to you and learn more about this, contact you and so on? Yep,   Dr. Juliëtte Sterkens  1:07:31 I have a little website called loopWisconsin, www dot loopwisconsin.com. And my email, my contact information is right on the website. They can also reach out to the get in the hearing loop committee from H L A. And again, if they go to the hearingloss.org website and click on hearing loop resources, they'll be able to find an email address there. And then a whole group of hearing loop advocates will jump into gear. So if people have questions about loops, or about whether their hearing aids have telecoils, we are all very willing to help. If you don't ask, you won't get the help.   Michael Hingson  1:08:21 Right. Exactly right. And I also know that we met you through Sheldon Lewis at accessibe we did. So where does accessibly fit into what you do.   Dr. Juliëtte Sterkens  1:08:33 I reached out to accessibe to see what I could do to make my website accessible for people with disabilities. And accessibe got me in touch with Sheldon and I can't say enough about the context that I have made through accessibe and how accessibe has helped to kind of get that message out there. I think they've been very focused on people with who are blind or people who are a mobility impaired but I don't think they had given hearing loss and hearing accessibility a lot of thought and I tell you they've pulled out all stops so I want to thank accessibe for doing what it's done for this technology and I just had a blog post it and I will send you the link Michael so that you can add it to your notes. We I was just posted last week by accessibe   Michael Hingson  1:09:39 actually I think accessibe has given a lot of thought but some of the things that accessibe does with the artificial intelligent widget and so on are not as easy to add present. Bring into the automated world from a standpoint of deaf or hard of hearing that It is still technology that has to catch up a lot. So it has to be done more through manual remediation, but accessibe is aware of it. So it's great that you and accessibe have established a relationship that I think will help. Well, I want to thank you again for being here. We were supposed to do this for an hour. And we are now up to 70 minutes, because we're having way too much fun here, right? Yes,   Dr. Juliëtte Sterkens  1:10:25 yes. Well, you and I could probably talk for another half hour. But   Michael Hingson  1:10:30 yeah, I think they might get bored with us. So I want to thank you again for being here. And I want to thank you for listening to us. Please reach out. I'd love to hear your thoughts and comments about this today. Juliette has been wonderful. You can reach me at Michaelhi at accessibe A C C E S S I B E.com. I also invite you to go to my podcasts page, which is www dot Michael hingson h i n g s o n.com/podcast. And wherever you're listening to the podcast today, like on Apple, iTunes or wherever, please give us a five star review. We appreciate your reviews. We appreciate your thoughts. But I would really appreciate you reaching out to me and telling me what you thought things that we ought to improve or if you love us, that's great, too, then if you know of more guests that we ought to have and Juliette you as well, if you know of other people who we ought to have honest guests on unstoppable mindset. We would love to hear from you about that. So again, Juliette, I want to thank you for being here and educating us a whole lot today. This has been absolutely enjoyable, and fun.   Dr. Juliëtte Sterkens  1:11:44 Thank you very much, Michael.   Michael Hingson  1:11:51 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com. accessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

In this episode of Executive with a Cause, host Tammy Ven Dange chats with Susan Davidson, CEO of the Australian Diabetes Educators Association (ADEA). https://www.adea.com.au/ We learn how the ADEA is transforming itself to provide its members with a competitive edge in the industry whilst improving diabetes education for all healthcare workers. We also discuss how an organisation can use micro-credentials and ‘badges' as marketing tools for its members. What are the pitfalls of customising off-the-shelf IT solutions, especially in small organisations with limited resources? You won't want to miss this episode, where we get deep into the operations of the Australian Diabetes Educators Association. To read the full episode notes and related links, visit: https://roundboxconsulting.com.au/podcast/ Thank you for listening to the Executive with a Cause podcast. Don't forget to subscribe to this channel to hear how other Not for Profit and Social Enterprise leaders run their operations. IT in PLAIN ENGLISH In this week's segment, Tammy answers the question, "What is a QR Code?" To read the full summary, visit: https://roundboxconsulting.com.au/answers/ Sign-up here to subscribe to the "Executive with a Cause" newsletter and gain more IT insights in plain English. https://roundboxconsulting.com.au/subscribe/ CREDITS: Thanks to the entire team at Lonsdale St. Studio. Thanks also to our Digital Content Creator, Laura Kleinrahm. Tammy Ven Dange is a former charity CEO, Not for Profit Board Member and IT Executive. Today she helps NFPs with IT and data decisions with her business, Roundbox Consulting. https://roundboxconsulting.com.au

I Danmark bliver der årligt født få børn med Downs syndrom. Til gengæld viser tal en lille stigning i forældre, der vælger at få børn med Downs. I denne panelsnak taler vi med tre mødre om, hvordan de reagerede, da det gik op for dem, at deres baby har Downs. Vi skal høre om den identitetskrise, de gennemgik, fordi de troede, lykken var bundet op på et andet narrativ, og om hvordan uvidenhed og sorg i dag er afløst af rummelighed, nysgerrighed og tonsvis af kærlighed. Vores panel består af rekrutteringschef Noor Yassin, mor til Daniel, 4, og Gabriel, 7, sygeplejerske Natacha Øvre Eriksen, mor til Asta, 2, og Elias, 7, og caféejer Louise Aarsø, mor til Elea, 8, Adea, 11, Alberto, 16, Amelía, 19 og Emil, 22 år.

It's been five years since the disappearance of Adea Shabani, a 25-year-old aspiring actress and model, last seen outside her Hollywood apartment. Experience the first had journey alongside award-winning journalist and bestselling author Neil Strauss, as he finds himself at the center of the investigation. What happened to Adea? [Season 1, Episode 1 - Republish] To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This interview is with Dean and Ann Fisher of ADEA Wine co. In this interview, the couple talk about how they got into wine after it originally being a hobby. Dean then talks about his time working with people in the industry such as Michael Etzel and Hal Medici, and the process of getting the Gaston property and creating their vineyard. They then share memorable experiences and what makes their location special: it's like family, where everybody helps everybody. The couple then go on to talk about what's special about Oregon Pinot noir, challenges and changes within the industry, and the future of it. To conclude, Dean ends with speaking about the future for ADEA, and his hopes for Oregon's industry in general.This interview was conducted by Rich Schmidt at ADEA Wine Company on August 1, 2019.

Where are we with the Robert Emert case? A lot of you have been emailing and calling and all that. So he's still in jail. Unfortunately, if you don't recall, we had a, a podcast about this thing a few episodes ago. And because he's still in jail, literally for ridiculous reasons. Things that I believe were either made up by the DEA or exaggerated. In order to teach Ron the lesson, he filed a federal lawsuit. This is a title 42 USC 9083, which is essentially a federal lawsuit used against people that are violating his civil rights under color of law. And he named nine defendants because you can't sue the state, typically, unless they violate your ADEA, which are Americans with disabilities. And they did. So in part, he sued a state actor, I don't believe he sued a state. But he didn't sue nine people in total that were violating his civil rights, including the DEA investigator, Luis Pena, here in San Diego, who I believe was the one that was behind this with another woman that's in the DHS office, just basically a travesty. And these are the things that the people have to rise up and demand change. Because if you can throw a dad in jail, who was for all intents and purposes, one of the best dads of the year, he just got angry with the courts who were trying to take his son away from them and put them put him in the home. So now, we're in a situation where he's got a federal lawsuit, which they've got 21 days to respond. I think that was from February 7. So we'll get back on at the end of the month and talk to you about what happened there. We just witnessed a preliminary hearing, I believe it was yesterday where they presented their evidence. And I can tell you, I was looking at the DA was looking at Louis Pena, these people are nervous. Her hand was shaking, and she was reading from it because they know this is a fraud. It's BS, what they're trying to do. And if they win, and they set precedents here, then if you miss, or if you have an infraction of any sort, and they deem you, as someone that they don't like, then hey, you could be arrested without bail. It's insane. And they know it. Michael's YouTube Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/MrPropriaPersona1 Contact Michael at www.judicialrevolution.us  Want to help us fight judicial injustice? Donate to www.KidsMatter.charity  Michael's YouTube Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/MrPropriaPersona1 Want to help us fight judicial injustice? Donate to KidsMatter.charity  https://kidsmatter.charity/campaigns/kids-matter-donate/donate/  

Lately, more and more companies are unfortunately finding themselves in a situation where they need to lay off part of their workforce. This discussion outlines some of the high-level considerations to keep in mind as companies navigate this process, including whether to offer the impacted employees' severance or other benefits like extended COBRA; whether the company should require employees to sign a release in connection with severance offer, and if there is any risk of violating the ADEA, WARN Act, or other protective state or federal statutes. The panelists also address extending the post-termination period during which an employee might be eligible to exercise vested stock options, and the PR ramifications of layoffs.  Speakers: Megan Monson, Partner, Employee Benefits & Executive CompensationJulie Levinson Werner, Partner, Employment Counseling & LitigationJessica Kriegsfeld, Associate, Employee Benefits & Executive Compensation

As America becomes increasingly diverse, the issue of religious freedom has come to the forefront. The Religious Freedom Restoration Act was passed in 1993 to protect the rights of religious minorities. However, there has been growing concern that the act could be used to discriminate against LGBTQIAP+ individuals in the workplace. Listen in as Kelly Bunting and host Shari Simpson navigate this difficult topic and provide resources for your organization. Guest: Kelly Dobbs Bunting, Lawyer at Greenberg Traurig, LLP. and Co-Chair of the law firm's Labor & Employment Practice's Workplace Compliance & Counseling Group Kelly has considerable experience defending class and collective wage and hour litigation and misclassification claims, having defended employers in Title III ADA access litigation and litigation alleging race, sex, pregnancy, age, disability discrimination, harassment, and retaliation. She is deeply experienced in virtually all aspects of employment litigation, including wage and hour, labor, Title VII, harassment, discrimination, wrongful termination, non-competition and non-solicitation, trade secrets, SOX and Dodd Frank whistleblower claims, CEPA, ADEA, FMLA, NJLAD, and failure to accommodate issues. She has identified and managed employment issues in M&A deals and appeared before the EEOC, NLRB, and DOL in many states, as well as state agencies in DE, NY, NJ and PA. Kelly has represented many clients in mediation and settlement negotiations and created HR and compliance training modules. She is regularly sought after as a workforce trainer for issues related to harassment and discrimination, FCPA compliance, good management techniques, and union avoidance. Kelly focuses much of her practice on international L&E issues, including employment/secondment contracts, data privacy, and global anti-corruption compliance. She advises clients on national and international handbook policies, procedures, and strategic HR issues and provides day-to-day counsel in hiring, employee relations, employee discipline, and termination. She also conducts and advises on internal investigations. Mentioned in the episode: Lambda Legal Human Rights Campaign Out and Equal National LGBT Chamber of Commerce

Xperi Holding Corporation (XPER) invests and develops consumer and entertainment products and solutions with brands like IMAX, TiVo, DTS, and HD Radio. Xperi Holding Corporation (XPER) completed a separation of products and I.P. licensing business. The I.P. licensing company Adeia (ADEA) will begin trading on the Nasdaq today. "Reduced complexity is important for investors today. We develop extraordinary experiences in the entertainment space," says CEO John Kirchner.

We were very fortunate to have Adea Frances Guldi from Pretty Cryers on the podcast to talk about their new self titled EP, "Pretty Cryers". Enjoy! Pretty Cryers Socials: Twitter: https://twitter.com/PrettyCryers Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/prettycryers/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/prettycryers/ TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@prettycryers YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC1JsDbGKJWjFanFjWEKzNxw Apple Music: https://music.apple.com/us/artist/pretty-cryers/1594087740 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/artist/0dNmmN96hOsu436TltgR7k Website: https://prettycryers.com/ Good Noise Podcast Socials: Twitter: https://twitter.com/good_noise_cast Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/goodnoisepodcast/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/goodnoisepod Discord: https://discord.gg/nDAQKwT YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFHKPdUxxe1MaGNWoFtjoJA Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/04IMtdIrCIvbIr7g6ttZHi All other streaming platforms: http://hyperurl.co/GoodNoisePodcast Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/goodnoisepodcast Bandcamp: https://goodnoiserecords.bandcamp.com/

Robert P. French was born in Oxford England in 1944. Early on he developed a love of working with computers. As you will learn, he lived within 40 miles of the first 5 computers in the world.   He obtained his first software job in 1963 and never looked back. Well, not back, but as you will learn, he did find new directions along the way that greatly advanced his career and took him along different life paths.   Today he is the author of, thus far, seven books in the acclaimed Cal Rogan series. Robert's life story is fascinating and by any standard unstoppable.     About the Guest: Robert French is a software developer, turned actor, turned author. He is the writer of the seven (so far) Cal Rogan Mysteries, crime thrillers about a drug-addicted ex-cop who fights his way from living rough on the streets to being a much-sought-after PI. The series, set in Vancouver, Canada, reflects the best and worst of the city. He is passionate about having the right words on the page and with every new book, his goal is to make it better than the previous one. Robert was born in Oxford, England and was brought up in the East End of London. His fascination with computers was born from his love of science fiction, especially Asimov's I Robot books. At age 26 he emigrated from the UK to Canada “for a couple of years” and his been here ever since. At age sixty, he started a transition to writing and after many false starts he published his first book seven years later. His loves are his family, science, language, certain elements of philosophy and craft beer       About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app.   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.     Transcription Notes UM Intro/Outro  00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i  capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson  01:22  Welcome to unstoppable mindset. And today. Wow, this is a fascinating way to introduce someone we have a software developer turned actor turned author. I don't know what to say to that except Robert French. Welcome to unstoppable mindset.   Robert French  01:38 Thank you very much, Michael, I'm delighted to be here.   Michael Hingson  01:42 We're going to have to get into this software developer and all of that. Robert and I have had some interesting discussions, among other things, talking about computers. Robert was born in 1944. I was born in 1950. But when Robert was was born, and for a while there were a total of five computers in the world. And they were all within 40 miles of where you were born in England, right?   Robert French  02:07 That's correct. Yeah. Yeah, they were to Bletchley Park,   Michael Hingson  02:12 ah, probably used for decoding or something.   Robert French  02:16 That's right. Yes, they were under the care of the famous Alan Turing.   Michael Hingson  02:21 Right. And, of course, we've got a few more computers in the world than that today. But I remember when Robert and I were talking, I pointed out how both of us grew up in a time when a disk crash was really a disk crash. This were these large 16 inch platters that you would place into a disk drive and the heads would flow over the disks a tiny, microscopic amount above the disk. But if something messed up, and the head dropped onto the disk drive, it tore it up, and it made a wretched noise.   Robert French  03:02 Yes, and all your data was lost?   Michael Hingson  03:07 was immediately and totally lost. Absolutely. It's, it's pretty amazing. Well, tell me a little bit about about you and growing up and so on and how you got into the whole business of software development and such.   Robert French  03:23 Well, yeah, it was interesting. I was born in the East End of London, which is like the dodgy End of London. I was born actually in Oxford, but brought up in the East End of London, which is the kind of dodgy End of London. And my parents sacrificed quite a lot to send me to a good school, where I became fascinated with mathematics and wanted to become a mathematician. Then I started reading science fiction. And the idea of computers came up and I got fascinated with the whole idea of computers. I made a decision. That's where I wanted to place my career. Rather than being a mathematic mathematician and working in kind of esoteric arts. I thought I'd rather do something practical with computers. And so I became a computer programmer and did that for for a lot of years, almost 50   Michael Hingson  04:30 I remember Isaac Asimov's UNIVAC   Robert French  04:35 I actually worked for the company UNIVAC at one point in my career. Yes, I do.   Michael Hingson  04:42 It's one of my favorite Isaac Asimov stories. And I heard about it long before I actually was able to read it because it finally got put in a in a readable form for me, was the ultimate question. You're familiar with that?   Robert French  04:55 Yes, yeah.   Michael Hingson  04:56 And and of course It was it was, what was well, what was the question? I was trying to remember. Oh, it had to do with entropy. When entropy doesn't expand anymore, or when does it? Yeah, first, when does entropy reversing think it was. And, and the story goes that there was the UNIVAC and it progressed and became more powerful. And eventually it lived in hyperspace, and was an all encompassing computer. And every time anyone asked the question about whether entropy could be reversed, the computer always answered, I don't know, I don't need insufficient data to know the answer to the question. And finally, at the very end, the computer said, I have the answer. And the answer to the question was let there be light.   Robert French  05:51 Yes, that's the nice a great story. A couple of other as in life stories have inspired me. But one is his robot series. Yeah, the AI robot. That was one of the things that made it made me want to be a programmer. He vastly underestimated the time it would take for artificial intelligence to emerge. He missed it by about 50 years, but still pretty good. But another one that really interested me and inspired me was I forgotten the name of the the actual book, but it was about the planet Aurora, where people didn't ever didn't meet in person. But they projected images of each other holographic images of each other. So if you wanted to go for a walk in the woods with a friend, they would walk in their words, you would walk in yours, and each of you would have a holographic image of the other one walking with you. And in some ways, that was the precursor of the internet.   Michael Hingson  07:02 Sure. Yeah. Sure, well, and in with iRobot, and the series, of course, the three laws of robotics, he is very, very creative and clever about what robots could do and couldn't do. And then of course, there were a few times that the laws got circumvented. And it turns out it was human error and turn instructions to the computers or to the robots and so on.   Robert French  07:28 Yeah, the the three laws of robotics, it's interesting that there are lots of discussions these days in the world of artificial intelligence, about the whole issue of how do you control artificial intelligence, and how you might put the three laws of robotics into into effect. So a lot of people are concerned about artificial intelligent intelligence running amok.   Michael Hingson  07:55 Right. Well, and, and just the whole lack of discipline and a lot of what we do today, of course, today, yeah, everyone wants everything immediately. And they want everything and they want their so called freedom, and they don't recognize, which is what the laws of robotics at least addressed. They don't recognize their own responsibility to freedom.   Robert French  08:14 Mm hmm. Yes. So there's the old adage, you have no rights without duties.   Michael Hingson  08:23 Correct. So you got into software development, love to learn a little bit more about that.   Robert French  08:28 When I started on, obviously, mainframe computers, it was this was in my first job was, I started my first job on January the 11th 1963. And the first computer I worked on was, of course, a mainframe because they were all mainframes. And I worked for years on mainframes, I emigrated from England, to Canada in 1971. The original plan is I'd go to Canada for a couple of years and work and then maybe go back to England and now 51 years later, I haven't gone back to England, or not to live anyway. And, you know, I graduated through the mainframes worked on many computers, then worked on PCs and I had one of the early luggable computers, which was an Osborn computer. And I just worked on mainly I did some, I had during my career I had some jobs in marketing and in in product management, but and in but mainly I still my love was always developing software. I just I loved working on the development of piece of software and then what seeing people use it being happy with it. That was that was a great motivator for me?   Michael Hingson  10:01 Well, of course, you've seen so many different kinds of advances much, not just the whole physical issue of computers and so on, going from the big huge things that were programmed by patch boards that you would just plug into slots and systems that we talked about. Well, I, I was a student in Palmdale High School, and was a lab assistant for our physics professor. And one day, he asked me to take some time. And he had these big patch boards, he said, Just take all the wires out of the patch board, which was a major struggle into themselves. Because there was a lot of fun. But, but computers have progressed physically. So now of course, one of those patch boards wouldn't even be of small fraction of what goes on a chip.   Robert French  10:56 Oh, no. When I think back to the mainframe days IBM's I think last large commercial computer was the 371 58. Yeah, I believe my iPhone is orders of magnitude more powerful than that machine, which cost $2 million, or there abouts.   Michael Hingson  11:22 I remember at UC Irvine, we had an IBM 360. And we had a PDP 10.   Robert French  11:29 Yeah, they were great machines, those PDP 10 machines, as long as you didn't cut your fingers on the paper tapes. Yes.   Michael Hingson  11:38 And as long as you were careful about putting the duct tape in the right way, yes. Well, so now of course, the other part about computers is how software has advanced. And as you said, the iPhone is magnitudes more powerful than the 370. And we we started hearing even in the mid 70s, about computers learning what we now call artificial intelligence, I worked with Ray Kurzweil, as he was developing the original Kurzweil breathing machine. And the thing about the breathing machine was that it also did learn and you could start scanning a page with the computer, of course, scanning was totally different than you have to build up a page of text, line by line with a camera, literally scanning each line then moving down a little bit and scanning the next part until you got a whole page as opposed to just taking a shot. But as it scanned and as you read, the machine really did learn something about the text and the print and re had done the what at that time, were probably very simple, but still steps to allow the machine to learn to read better is the more you read a book.   Robert French  13:04 Hmm, yeah, he because while he's a genius, you're lucky to have worked with   Michael Hingson  13:09 him. And of course, he went on and did other things after he sold Kurzweil Computer Products. But it still was very creative and clever to be able to have a machine, even then, that learned and as a user of the machine and then helping with the original testing and evaluation. As I read books with it, it was clearly obvious that it learned as it went along, it literally would read pages better the more I read, when I could go back and read a page that I had read and just see how much better it was after reading several pages.   Robert French  13:41 Yeah, it's amazing, isn't it? And now, of course,   Michael Hingson  13:44 it's a whole different ballgame in terms of what artificial intelligence does and can do, and its availability. But it's interesting to see how things are improving and getting better over time. And it will be fun to to really see what happens as machines learn and so on. I'm not a fan of Ray Kurzweil singularity necessarily. I'm not sure that we're going to marry the brain and artificial intelligence together, although problem will try but I don't know whether that will be a good thing or not. But I guess we'll see.   Robert French  14:19 Yeah, yeah. Well, certainly, even if one can't map the brain and download it to a computer, I could still see a possibility of a brain being connected to a directly connected to a computer and living inside a robot. Sure. So which is a pretty scary thought.   Michael Hingson  14:49 What were some of the last projects you did in terms of software development?   Robert French  14:54 The last the last major project that I did was a A system that would create would put all of an organization's manuals, online and searchable. So the basic idea was, hospitals were a target market for us. The basic idea was that you could take all of your manuals as PDFs, and word documents, and JPEGs, and whatever you really wanted. And you put them all into our system, you just upload them to our system and create a structure for a set of for all of the manuals of your organization. And you could search all of the manuals in very sophisticated ways more flexible, even than Google searching. Yes, you could say things like, I want to find a document that has the word, heart, and catheter within five words of each other. And it would instantly present that document or documents to you. And it had all sorts of built in security. So you were only allowed to search for what you needed. But it meant that anyone in our hospital had access to all the documents that exists all the manuals that existed in that hospital. At that time, it was I it was a problem finding manuals, you know, people would spend an hour searching for a particular manual to do a procedure. So that was the last big project that I worked on.   Michael Hingson  16:42 And you said that the manuals typically were in like JPEG format or something like that.   Robert French  16:47 Usually they will Word or PDF. But you know, sometimes they would have JPEGs that were associated with the Word documents or the PDF documents. Of course, they couldn't search the JPEGs.   Michael Hingson  17:03 Well, I was wondering about that, of course, today. Now, even more people are demanding that the documents are accessible. The Google, of course, had the large library of millions of books that didn't inherit it, and they would put them up as pictures. And it took a court fight to get Google to agree and slash be compelled to put the documents up as accessible documents.   Robert French  17:31 Hmm. Yeah, that's I didn't know about that. That's, I'm glad that I'm glad the court said that.   Michael Hingson  17:38 It's all about inclusion, of course. And well, they are and, and other organizations are beginning to work on that. Now, of course, in this country, it's not quite as stringent in Canada yet. But in this country of within the last month, the government has said that the Americans with Disabilities Act does apply to websites, because a lot of times lawyers have been making the case or trying to make the case while the ADA was passed before the internet. So how can websites be held accountable and responsible for being accessible? Clearly, the ADEA doesn't apply. And a number of us have said, well, of course it does. Now, of course, the government has finally said, Yes, it does. But Congress still needs to stiffen the laws. And that will be another story.   Robert French  18:24 Yeah, yeah. Well, first getting Congress to move is not always easy.   Michael Hingson  18:31 Yeah, well, it says bad is will can entropy be reversed? And maybe the ultimate question will be the same, will have the same answer. So you worked with that until you were 60. So what was that? 2003 years or so?   Robert French  18:54 Yeah, yeah, it was about the company fails to get its last. Its last financing because of the burst of the tech bubble in 2003. And that's when that's when I started to think about other options.   Michael Hingson  19:13 So what other option Did you decide upon to reverse your entropy? Difficult? Or maybe to see entropy and larger growth? Yes. I don't think that most people probably understand that that whole joke and it's a physical basically, the laws that entropy can't be reversed. And things are constantly expanding like the universe is constantly expanding. And you know, it's like Murphy's Law, which is if anything can go wrong, it will route around and then there's no tools commentary on Murphy's Law which was Murphy was an optimist. But But then the other one, which is the commentary on Murphy's law that says once you open a can of worms, you can only put the words back in a bigger can. So yeah. So maybe it should be continued to expand for?   Robert French  20:07 Well, just on this subject of entropy, it's probably one of the worst understood words by the general public. But what? Well, it was interesting. You know, whenever a company folds, the first thing that you do is start looking for contracting work, which is what I did, I got on the phone and started calling people. And this particular day, it was in March of 2003, I had finished talking to a bunch of people and I put down the phone. And I opened a Word document, because I'd had this idea in my head for quite a while. And it was about a strange plague hitting the Earth. It was kind of an apocalyptic sort of tale. And I started writing, this was about three in the afternoon, I started writing, and I just kept on writing. And suddenly, it was no one in the morning or something. And I just written for eight hours. And I'd written 1000s of words. And I thought, wow, this is the most fun I've had for a such a long time. And that's how it all started. That book, I kind of ran out of steam on. So I started a different book. And the second book was going nowhere. So I started a book about an assassin. And it just wasn't that book became boring. Though, I did use the opening chapters in another book that in one of my Cal Rogen books. Then finally I got an idea for a kind of a business thriller. But I had said in an area in which I had some experience, I were somebody I know was was conned by a, a venture capital company, or will they call themselves a venture capital company somewhere to novel based on that. And I actually finished it, it was the first thing I actually finished completely. And I was I was quite happy with it. I thought it was pretty good. So I sent out query letters to I think it was 70 Publish literary literary agents, and a bunch of publishers and got back 70 rejection letters and other things. Yes, exactly. And this was before the day that you could submit submit via the Internet. The publishing was really quick, I was really slow to adopt technology. So as luck would have it, I booked myself into a Writers Conference. And I thought, well, this book is good. I mean, it's just I don't know how to market it. That's the problem. So I went to the Writers Conference. And the first day was the all the all the all the sessions were about the art of the art of writing. And   Robert French  23:27 I went, took those those courses, and realized the marketing wasn't the problem. The book was the problem. And I it was just that I didn't really understand how to write a book. I, I assumed because I was an avid reader, that I would be a natural writer. But as luck would have it at that conference, I met an editor who gave me a 37 page report on the book. And I decided that the book was a non starter. But through that, through that editor, she she was wonderful. And she mentored me through my first real book. And it all started because I was doing it contract in the Downtown Eastside of Vancouver, which is the dodgy area of town. And every day I'd walked past this alley to get to the to the the office I was working in. And this alley was full of drug addicts. And I remember saying to my editor whose name was Lisa. I said, Gosh, I go past this alley every day. And I keep thinking, how awful would it be to wake up in that alley, which was just awful, just terrible place? And she said, Well, who would wake up in an alley like that? And I said, Well, if it were a lawyer, yeah, that would be kind of ironic. And if it were a businessman, we interesting but then I thought well if you're a cop That would be great. And so I have this idea of a cop waking up in a alley full of drug addicts covered in blood. And Lisa asked me a bunch of questions. And the first my first novel, which is called junkie, started to come together in my head. And she mentored me through that novel and the second one, and that's grown into a series of seven books now,   Michael Hingson  25:26 are they self published, or traditionally published,   Robert French  25:29 this self published, I tried going the traditional publishing route, I got some interest, but I think my age was working against me, because publishers are more interested in people who are younger than I am. And who will have lots of books in them. So anyway, I, I learned about self publishing and took a bunch of courses and went that route. And now I think if a publisher came to me, and made me an offer, unless it was a really good offer, I don't think I'd be interested.   Michael Hingson  26:06 But you, you now have seven books. So you've clearly established a track record, in the fact that you keep writing them. I'm sure it's in part because you want to, but I would also suspect that you had success with   Robert French  26:19 them. Yeah, yeah. I've had some success with them. And, you know, somebody asked me, When are you going to stop writing? I'm 77. Now. So they asked me, When are you going to stop writing? And I paraphrase Charlton Heston and said, when they prize the computer out of my cold, dead hands, so I'm just gonna keep doing it. And one of the main reasons I do it is, over the years, I have established a mailing list of people who are fans of my my books, and the feedback I get from those people is just wonderful. It's this, I've met so many wonderful people through this mailing list. And they are the people that that keep me going. When I have bad times. It's those people who make me feel that I can still do this.   Michael Hingson  27:20 Do you publish through Amazon? Or where do you how do you publish?   Robert French  27:24 Amazon? Yeah, I went, I decided to go exclusive with Amazon. Because when I when I was publishing through Amazon, and Kobo, and Apple and Google, Barnes and Noble, I did an experiment with a couple of books and made them exclusive to Amazon. And they just did so much better. So I decided to go exclusive with Amazon on all the books. Can you   Michael Hingson  27:55 answer those when you're publishing through Amazon? I assume it's Kindle Direct Publishing? Yeah. Can't Can't you also make the books available from Amazon through other distribution channels and so on?   Robert French  28:09 Yes, you can. Yes. And Amazon will do that, too. Also, Amazon. Another reason for being with Amazon is that they also do the books in paperback, and in hardcover now. So I've got all of my books are in paperback and in large print. So that's, that's one of the things that Amazon does, which I like.   Michael Hingson  28:36 So have any of them been also produced in audio?   Robert French  28:41 Not yet, I really want to do them in audio. But I have a particular problem in doing them in audio, because the books are written in first person, present tense, from the point of view of multiple characters. So some chapters will be written from the point of view of a woman's, for example, and some even from a child. And then they'll say, there'll be saying, man standing here waiting for cow, and he's late again. So I need a woman actress to voice those, those chapters. So it means that in order to do audiobooks, I need to put together a team. Well, I did have a stint of acting. So I do know a bunch of actors. So I will do that at some point. But and hopefully soon, but right now, I'm just so busy that I can't devote the time to it.   Michael Hingson  29:41 I'm thinking though that with the fact that you're going through Amazon, it would be interesting to see if you could raise a discussion within Bada bing published through audible which is owned by Amazon because ANA has has produced they have done what they call audible originals, and they're very capable and Do oftentimes use more than one person to deal with a   Robert French  30:05 book. Oh, I didn't know that.   Michael Hingson  30:08 Oh, there's a lot of that.   Robert French  30:11 So because my thought was that I would know how to edit audio and video, I thought of assembling the actors and getting them to read the chapters and then editing it into an audible book, which, you know, Amazon will let you do that. So they're called Amazon, audible originals. Did you say, well,   Michael Hingson  30:36 audible originals are books that are not traditionally published elsewhere, but published through audible. Do you use Audible at all?   Robert French  30:46 No, I don't. I'm not a I'm not an audio book.   Michael Hingson  30:49 That's fine. We want to and it doesn't violate the laws of robotics. But But in your case, I'm sure it would be called an audible original because it's not published anywhere through traditional publishing, although the your books are so either way, though, they they do produce audio books, and oftentimes have at least two people reading it, if not more. I remember one that I read last year, you've seen the movie Alien? Yes. Yeah. Okay. So there's a book called Alien shadows, which is another one where, oh, what's the Gorny weavers character's name? Yeah. And the cat? Yeah. Are, are they actually they were in suspended animation. And they're brought out of suspended animation for something and they ended up fighting aliens again. And there are like about 10 different actors that are dealing with all the different characters. So I really think that it would be interesting to explore whether audio audible could do it and would do yeah, I'll certainly look into that. Thank you. I would, I would think that would make a lot of sense to do. I do a lot of audio reading on airplanes. But nowadays, mostly not opposed to Braille. Because I believe that Braille is still the basic means of reading and writing that I have. My wife and I read books together. So we pipe them through the house. So whatever we're doing, there's a book going, usually TV, but a book. She's learned how to listen to audio, and not fall asleep. So she That's great. Yeah, it's it's really wonderful when a number of actors do it. And there are some actors that can do a number of voices. But I understand what you're saying for your book. But I would definitely explore audio through audible and see what you could do.   Robert French  32:52 Yeah, I will definitely do that. Thank you,   Michael Hingson  32:55 it would make a lot of sense to do. Well, so you, you were an actor, while software developer, actor and then reader tell me more about that. Yeah,   Robert French  33:05 I, my first one, my first job when I was five, I wanted to be a cowboy. But my first job that I wanted to do is I wanted to be an actor. And my father probably quite rightly, taught me out and said, you know, with your mathematical ability, you should do something else. And actually, to some extent, he was instrumental in pointing me towards computers, or encouraging me towards computers should I say, but I always liked acting. I was in every school, my every play my school ever produced. And after school, I did a few acting, few plays and musicals. So in my 50s, I thought I'd like to try acting. So I took a tour course and went for auditions and found myself getting lead roles pretty quickly in local theater. And then I kind of realized I needed a better acting, a better acting coach. So I took lessons from Larry Silverberg, who was a wonderful, wonderful teacher, and he was in Seattle, and twice a week I would drive down to Seattle and do courses with Larry, and then I'd started doing a few movie things. Then, I just kind of realized that acting no matter how good an actor you are, in in the world of movies, it's they're always looking for a look. And I didn't have one plus or didn't have the one they wanted. Plus the the The movies that are made in Vancouver are all three American audiences almost all, and they needed people with American accents. And although I can do an American accent, it's just not very good. So that so I decided that pursuing that as a profession was not a good idea. So I continued acting in local theater for a while. But once I started writing that just completely overtook, took all my spare time. So that's when I stopped acting.   Michael Hingson  35:36 It's always radio for the BBC or the CPC.   Robert French  35:39 Yeah. I wouldn't mind doing radio. Yeah.   Michael Hingson  35:45 So you, so what's your next book,   Robert French  35:48 The next book is was in inspired by a podcast that I listened to, I'm a bit of a podcast addict. And it was about a, an amazing, but quite evil woman who ran this cryptocurrency scam. And I thought that would be an interesting part of a book. And so that's, that's the next book in the Cal Rogen series that I'm starting to write. Plus, I've got another series of books on the on the development stage. And my protagonist has a 12 year old daughter. And so the next series of books will be her as a detective in the year 2040 2045, when she's grown up, because in the current series, she's got five years old. So I'm very interested in what the near future holds for us with robotics and artificial intelligence and the social issues that we're facing and social media and cryptocurrencies and all of those things. So I'm very excited about writing books set credit, five years in the future.   Michael Hingson  37:10 Have you ever read any of the books by JD Robb the in depth series?   Robert French  37:14 I haven't No, no.   Michael Hingson  37:17 So JD Robb, who is nor Roger, yeah, Roberts, has written a whole series there, the Eve Dallas series, and I think they're now 54 or 55 books. And they start out in like 2058, I think, or 2057. And are very, they're fun to read. There are some steamy parts, but that's okay. They have absolutely captured what both me and my wife's attention. So she doesn't even want to read those piped through the house. She wants to read those on her own, but she wants the audio version. So we're both now on book number 20 in that series, but they're fun. And I'm sure that your take will be different. And that's a good thing. So it's a wonderful series to write. But she has been very successful with that.   Robert French  38:05 Oh, that's great. Oh, definitely. I knew I knew that Nora had started writing books under the JD Robert, I didn't know anything about them. So I will check out to the Eve Dallas series.   Michael Hingson  38:20 They're all they're all something in depth. And they're fascinating the characters evolve and grow. And the whole series has been very fascinating to observe character, character development, and because she's done with them, but I'm anxious to read yours as well now, so definitely get them out there and also get them out in audio, that'll be a lot of fun for a lot of people, for sure. Actually, something that you might think about is there is a the Library of Congress has the National Library Service for the Blind and print impaired. And I'm sure there is an equivalent in Canada. They also use their own readers to record books, and it might be worth reaching out to them to see if they might be interested. I've not seen any that they individually record that have several actors, but nevertheless, it's a fascinating thing, but I would still think audible would be the best way.   Robert French  39:19 Hmm, yeah, I will definitely look into that audible originals idea. That'd be great.   Michael Hingson  39:26 Well, tell me more about sort of your view about self publishing as opposed to traditional publishing and the differences in the values and so on.   Robert French  39:34 Well, I'm not a huge expert in traditional publishing. There. I know people who are both traditionally published and self published and generally prefer the self publishing side of, of their, their work. traditional publishing is going through some huge upheaval Almost, and they're very, they've been very slow to react to the ebook market. And they, they just don't seem to have got it. Their books, the one of the key things about the ebook market is books should be cheaper when they're ebooks than in on paper. But frequently, the traditional publishers will have the ebook and the paper book at the same price. And it seems like they're trying to grab all the money they can out of the marketplace before it's lost to them. So now, they might well be wrong. But that's, that's a bit how I see it. If somebody came to me and said, I wanted to be an author, which way should I go, I would say if you're going to choose go with self publishing, you have more control you make you make more money and midlist author with with a publishing house, doesn't make a heck of a lot of money. But a midlist author, on KDP, with Amazon can make a very nice living. So I would I have become a big fan of self publishing.   Michael Hingson  41:27 And the more you learn how to market, the better you will be and the more successful you will be in it is true that with self publishing, you have to do more of your marketing. But even in the regular publishing world today, authors aren't usually selected that can't bring their own marketing skills and marketing presence to a book. They want you to have significant social media presence, newsletters, blogs, Facebook, and social media outreach and so on, that you again, bring yourself much less what they might do,   Robert French  42:10 huh? Yeah, gone are the days when you signed a deal with a publisher, went back home and started writing the next book. And they did everything?   Michael Hingson  42:20 Yeah, very much. So. So tell me about your writing process, your style, and so on.   Robert French  42:25 Yeah, it'sa bit weird,   Michael Hingson  42:27 which you talked a little bit about it, but   Robert French  42:30 goes with goes with my personality. I don't do a lot of planning of a book, I tend to write by the seat of my pants as a pantser, as they say, so I'll get an idea for a book. And I'll kind of do a mind map of where I think it's going and what it's going to what it's going to be like, and who's going to be in it. And just, I don't even always know how it's going to end. But once I've kind of got got it settled in my gut, I just start writing. And I write and things happen. And now of course, I have a cast of characters who are in most of the books, and when they show up, they know, I know what to do with them. And it's it's a lot, it's a it's a lot of fun. And I frequently surprised myself, you know, I'll be writing thinking that this chapter is going to end a certain way. And then somebody will say something, and it will trigger something in my mind, and the chapter will go in a quite different direction. Now this can be difficult, because you can write yourself, it's write itself into a corner. And sometimes it takes a while to get out of it. But I always think if I can surprise myself, I can surprise my readers. So it seems to work for me. And I really like working this way. I did one time just for fun. Think about planning out of book, The wet. Some people know they know how many chapters it's going to be what's going to happen in each chapter. And I started to do that and my head exploded. I just couldn't to couldn't do it. So sorry.   Michael Hingson  44:24 Your characters are beginning to tell the story.   Robert French  44:28 That's right. That's absolutely right. Yeah, yeah. Sometimes you ask a question. And I'll think, hey, what would be an interesting answer to that question that I just wrote down? And that might send something in a completely different direction. The other thing is sorry, gone. No, go ahead. But the other thing is that one of the things that I learned from the literary agent and author Don Masse is With every book should have tension on every page. And so when I'm not fixed in what has to happen in the chapter, I can make tension appear on a page by somebody giving a an odd answer or asking a question that nobody's got the answer to. And all those things create tension, but they're sometimes drive the story in a different direction. So that that works really works for me.   Michael Hingson  45:35 Does it sometimes surprise you when that happens? Oh, yeah. Oh,   Robert French  45:38 yeah. I'm constantly surprised. Sometimes, you know, at the end of a day of writing, I'll, I'll look at what I've written and say, Wow, that was good. But different.   Michael Hingson  45:52     Robert French  45:57 Oh, yes. Yes. Oh, yeah. Yeah,   Michael Hingson  46:01 probably must be depressing. After a while   Robert French  46:03 it is. I'm subject to depression as well. And sometimes writer's block will be one of the triggers. But I usually get writer's block, because I've let the storyline go in a really interesting direction. And have a really unexpected, you know, I've been working towards an expected result. And I thought, No, this unexpected result with much better, and then sometimes takes me a long time to re gather the strands of the story with this new element in it. And, you know, that can take, you know, a couple of days to work out. But yeah, it's except when I'm in a long period of depression, writer's block may last a day or so how do you get over it? What happens? Well, in the, in the short term writer's block, eventually, something will click, you know, at some, you know, sometimes I'll wake up in the morning and think something, wow, that might work in the book. And so that will happen. When I get into, you know, a long, longer period of depression, that writer's block becomes semi permanent. And what gets me out of that is, I'll end up going to my doctor, and he'll getting some medication. So   Michael Hingson  47:31 until you allow yourself to relax and start to just really think about it again. Yeah, listen to your characters.   Robert French  47:39 Yeah, yeah. In a recent depression, something happened that helps quite a lot, is I woke up in the morning, and I was still half asleep. And I had this image of two women standing over looking down over the dead body. And I built a whole chapter in my mind about it. And as soon as I got up, I actually wrote down first 500 words of the chapter. And it was indicative of being in a depression because it was very, very dark. But I thought, you know, if I didn't make it quite so dark, it could actually be an interesting start to a story. So things like that help stuff pops into your mind. And you think, Wow.   Michael Hingson  48:30 Well, I'm looking forward to checking out some of the books certainly, and I can't end this without asking you, what kinds of thoughts and observations and advice you might have for people who want to write. Yeah, it's   Robert French  48:45 interesting that you're out, you should ask that I've just finished a guest blog post for a blogger in United Kingdom. And the title is what to do for an aspiring writer. And my advice would be that if you're don't think that you just you're just going to be a writer, the chances are, you're going to be a publisher too, and you're going to need to be good at it and good at marketing too. But the thing that will distinguish you over the long term is good writing. So if you don't have experience in writing don't do what I did. Don't assume because you're an avid reader that you're going to be a good writer. I spent I didn't waste but I used up quite a few years writing when I could have done a lot better. So make sure you're good. Writers Conference is a great thing to go to for aspiring writer, because they have courses which are given by actual published successful authors on how to write. You can meet agents, you can meet editors, you can meet publishers. But take as many courses as you can, on the craft of writing, read as many books as you can on the craft of writing, and just become a very, very good writer. Because at the moment, self publishing is what is the Wild West, but that's not going to last forever. And the good writers will be the ones who stay in and, and rise to the top, they've still got to be a good marketer and publisher. But I think the key is to become a very, very good writer. And if you if you can go to somebody I know went to a conference, they met one of their favorite authors, and asked me author if they would become their mentor. And they say, yes. So that's, that's something that is always worth doing. Because if you have a mentor, I was lucky that Lisa, my editor became my mentor. And, you know, I could call her anytime and ask her any question about writing? And she would, she would tell me, so a mentor is really good if you can get one. Do you work with an agent today? I don't work with an agent. Now. Now, it's all self publishing. It's all self publish. Yeah, but I do use Edison's   Michael Hingson  51:29 and there's a lot of value in editors, good editors are going to help you really bring out what is important and relevant about not just telling you how to rewrite something or whatever, I remember when we did thunder dog, we had a wonderful editor. And Chad said up front, I'm not going to try to rewrite this book, this has to be you and your story and your style. But what I need to do is to help you enhance it, to make it something that people will want to read and will connect with them. And he had some great suggestions about transitions and so on in the book. I don't know whether you if you read thunderdog, or not.   Robert French  52:13  Yeah, it's no, it's on my list.   Michael Hingson  52:15 Well, one of the things that we do in Thunder dog is we start off with something that happened on September 11. And then we transition back to things in my life that that are relevant to that and taught me something that I could then use to that event. And then at the end of the chapter, we go back to that event, finish it and then go to the next chapter and do the same thing. And Chad said, Well, the problem is, I get lost with the transitions. I don't know where I am, I'm suddenly somewhere else. The transitions are not very good. That's a fair comment, as opposed to, well, you got to you got to rewrite all of this and all that. He said, The transitions aren't good. So we we I actually spent a weekend working on the transitions. Once he taught me what that meant. And the transitions became, I think one of the better parts of the book, and others have said the same thing. And that's, that's one of the things that an editor should do is really help good writers become even better writers?   Robert French  53:14 Mm hmm. Absolutely. I had a, I had an experience with an editor. On my third book, Lisa, was involved in a couple of other projects. And she couldn't be my editor for that book. And so I found another editor who was really, really wonderful. And the book I mentioned about the assassin that never went anywhere, the first chapter of that book was great. And I used it in the new book. And it was a long, long chapter. And it was a it was a flash forward. So you know, after that chapter, it flashed back 14 days to see how one got to that situation. And the editor said that chapter is way too long. And so I broke it up into three different chapters, and flashed, flashed back after each chapter. And it really, really worked. And just, you know, but just to know that the chapter was too long, that's all she had to say, to make me fix it, which was really great and actually had a lot of other really good comments as well, where somebody was acting out of character, you know, would that person really do that? And I thought they probably wouldn't. So,   Michael Hingson  54:48 yeah, that's that's the sign of a good editor. Oh, she was great. Yeah, yeah. Well, if people want to reach out to you and learn about the books and other things like that, how do they do that?   Robert French  54:59 They thing to do is to go to Robert P French.com. That's my website. And if you first page is a list of my books, the book junkie is the first book in the series. And if you click on that, I'll send you a free copy of the first book. So so if anyone's interested in following up, that's the way to do it.   Michael Hingson  55:28 And is that that's the best way then to contact you, as opposed to email or something like that.   Robert French  55:33 But yeah, on my website, just click contact, and then then my email addresses, then people can email me,   Michael Hingson  55:40 and they can learn all about any social media that you happen. So   Robert French  55:43 yeah, I've got Facebook. So Robert P French offer?   Michael Hingson  55:49 Well, I really appreciate you coming on and giving us your insights and demonstrating that you, you took up challenges that came in your life, and you work through them, and even with depression, and so on that comes up, you're able to, to eventually get past it. So don't don't stop doing that. You don't want to depressed, Robert around.   Robert French  56:11 No one does.   Michael Hingson  56:13 But we're really glad that you you came here and you're talking with us. And I appreciate it very much. And so people can go to Robert P french.com. And get all the information and I hope they buy your books. Well,   Robert French  56:25 thank you very much. And thank you very much for inviting me onto the podcast. I really appreciate it. And just as an aside, I didn't after our first conversation I did have I did go to accessibe.com. And it was really very interesting. So I'm glad you made that connection for me.   Michael Hingson  56:49 Well, I hope that you'll use it to to get to work on your website, if you haven't yet. I certainly will. Yes, it works. Well. Yeah, I was very impressed with the demo. Well, thanks for being here. And I want to thank all of you who listened today, I learned a lot and enjoy talking with authors. It's fun to compare notes. And it's also fun to talk about the good old days of computers and such things. So thanks very much for for doing that, Robert. And again, thank all of you for listening. If you'd like to reach out to me, it's easy. You can go to www dot Michael hingson.com/podcast Michael Hingson is M I C H A E L H I N G S O N .com/podcast. Or you can email me and you're welcome to do so at Michael M I C H  A E L H I at accessibe A C C E S S I B E.com. And wherever you're listening to this, please give us a five star rating. We really appreciate your ratings. And thank you very much for do that. So again, thanks for being here. And Robert, thank you for being here as well. Thank you.   UM Intro/Outro  58:02   You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com. accessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

In this episode I invite you to meet Davida Shensky. Davida grew up in a time before the Americans with Disabilities Act and other legislation guaranteeing persons with disabilities many of the same rights enjoyed by most people in the United States. You will learn about Ms. Shensky's disability and that of her sister. Davida faced much discrimination when trying to break through the barriers imposed on persons with disabilities. You get to see how she overcame much to become successful in the workforce. Davida's perseverance is quite remarkable and should be inspirational and a lesson to us all. When it comes to overcoming obstacles, Davida will show us how it is done. I would love to hear your thoughts and, of course, I hope you will give us a 5 review after hearing Davida. Thanks for listening. Thanks for listening and I hope you will let me know your thoughts about our episode and the Unstoppable Mindset podcast by emailing me at michaelhi@accessibe.com.   About the Guest:*  She was born and educated before there were laws on the books that guaranteed people with disabilities the right to an education. She entered the workforce 12 years before ADA became law, which guaranteed people with disabilities the right to an employment. Therefore, when she entered the workforce there were a few opportunities for people with disabilities to find gainful employment. When she couldn't find gainful employment, she looked for other avenues and opportunities to earn an income. She had experience and training conducting group therapy sessions in both Transactional Analysis and Psychodrama. Without a Masters or PhD as a psychologist, her opportunities were limited. She holds degrees in Mental Health Work, Psychology, and Rehabilitation Services (employment counseling for people with disabilities). When she looked at the skills that she truly enjoyed doing she recognized that her strengths lay and standing in front of the room motivating attendees to overcome any obstacles or fears they have that were keeping them from reaching their goals. She did this by leading by example. Because it wasn't the limits she placed on herself, but the limits that society placed on her simply because of her disability and their lack of knowledge about people with disabilities. As a Motivational Speaker her business thrived. She also recognized how the workplace was transitioning across the board and every industry. For motivational speakers, that meant moving from working with corporations as in-house trainers and the speaking circuit for conventions to building and marketing your business from home. I help business owners use digital marketing to build an online presence and increase revenue with an E-Commerce store with commonly used systems to create multiple streams of income.  My goal is to establish a NPO called International Disabled Entrepreneurs, Inc to help people with disabilities who want to become entrepreneurs to learn the skills needed and develop an entrepreneur mindset, as well a be a resource for adaptive equipment needed to run a business. About the Host:  Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/  https://twitter.com/mhingson  https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson  https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links  https://accessibe.com/  https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe  https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!  Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast  If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app.   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review  Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.     Transcription Notes UM Intro/Outro  00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i  capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson  01:13 Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Welcome to another edition of unstoppable mindset. Thank you for being here. Hope that your week is going well. And we hope that you enjoy the podcast today. Our guest is Davida Shensky.  And she has an interesting story to tell. And I like talking with her because we share some interesting and similar ideas about dealing with disabilities and so on the Vita happens to be a person who we classify as someone with a disability. And I'm gonna let her tell you more about that as we go forward with Davida Welcome to unstoppable mindset. How are you? Davida Shensky  01:57 I'm doing great. And thank you for having me. Michael Hingson  02:01 Well, it's a pleasure to to have you on and we're honored that you're here and taking the time with us. So tell me a little bit about you, if you would, let's start with that. Davida Shensky  02:12 Okay, well, I grew up with a disability. And it's at first let me back up. I was born in 1951. And in 1961, there were no laws that address people with disabilities, because the slot and society looked at his disability community as being non existent. And it was prior to the laws of when the individual Disability Education Act came into existence, because that came into existence in 1977 when I was in graduate school, and I had already been in the workforce a few years before the Americans with Disabilities Act became law. And because society didn't recognize its disability community, and the fact that I came from a dysfunctional family to begin with, I was always told that I can't, and I can't, and I can't. And part of that was that my, you would think it's because my, my parents were worried about me, but it was more that they had their own issues about it. And all they saw was a way to hold their children back from living full and productive lives. Michael Hingson  03:37 So they weren't necessarily the most supportive. No, not at all. Now, you say hold their children back, you have siblings with disabilities. Davida Shensky  03:49 I have an older sister that was born deaf, and hers is a nerve deafness. And it's a specific syndrome that I cannot remember the name of it offhand. But it's, you know, it's it's not a it's a segment of people that are born deaf, and it's called a syndrome, because it's not a fully the number. No, but the total numbers are a thing for it to be called whatever it is, you know, so it's just lumped in to being deaf. Yeah. Just like I have spastic, hemiplegia. Because cerebral palsy only affects one side of the body as opposed to the whole body of certain other lands because it depends on how much is the brain is damaged, and what specific lens are affected to determine what the terminology is for it. Michael Hingson  04:57 So how was it between you and your sister growing up? Davida Shensky  05:01 Well, it was kind of mixed because she was always sent off to school or initially because my mother was in New York, and they had Lexington School for the Deaf up there, where she could go to school and stayed here during the week and then go home on weekends. And when she went home on weekends, she stayed with my grandmother, I want to add Snuggles. And she never really had a stable home that she went to. And that created some issues for her. And in my case, you know, because I was the only person with a disability in the classroom. And in the school, and people didn't know a whole lot about disabilities, I was bullied. And it's like, when you go home, and you don't have any parents, the hugging when Saudi they love, they love you, then it's like you be isolated, and trying to cope with things on your own. Yeah. Well, Michael Hingson  06:05 just to, to put it in perspective, I was born in 1950. So I was from the same era as both of you and fully understand what you have said about all of the issues regarding the laws. But for you, it was probably quite the challenge. Do you do you use or did you use a wheelchair? Davida Shensky  06:34 No, I went, because it only affects my right side. And initially, I was the Oh, the brace was only up to the knee. Because if I the way it affects it is that the tendons in the foot is very tight. And, and he and I either go flat foot or I go, I want toe heel as opposed to heel toe and drag my foot and then I would catch my total of the shoe with a toe would catch the ground. And it would cause me to fall over. So wearing and they were the the old iron braces. And then in 1980 as to how floods started to come into existence and an understanding of how exercise and strengthening and straightening and that help. Well when I turned 14, I had surgery on both my hands and my foot because my hand was very drawn up at all and then I could not really just pull it down to my side. And then it kind of moved down to an a 90 degree angle or maybe 60 degree angle. And by exercising a gave me a little bit more mobility, and it allowed me to not have to put the brace back on but when I turned 65 And I noticed that I was tripping over my own two feet and living alone. And if I fell and hurt myself, there would not be anyone there. Then I started wearing a walk on price. And I also have a brace on my hand that supports my wrist so it holds up so the risk doesn't prolong. And recently, I had a knee brace put on because years ago after the surgery, my orthopedist said I had caught football knees because there was no fluid around the knee. And then the bone was rubbing against each other. And over the years it slowly got up either. A little worse. And then the last couple of times, I noticed that when my knees started hurting me I could put pressure on my foot. And because I you know, white health insurances as you become a senior citizen, they called Nick now I see you, they called me and they think the nurse and anyway, they said go see an orthopedist. So I had to go to my doctor. And what he did was he sent me to the orthopedist, the author, Peter said, you need a sleeve. And then when I went to the prosthetics place, they said no, this is what you need. And one thing I found was by putting the knee brace on, it's repositioning my foot. I'm able to work better and continue to exercise three times a week. Michael Hingson  09:52 So how was it that we go ahead? How was it like for you in the classroom in grammar? school, in high school and so on? Davida Shensky  10:01 Well, because cerebral palsy affects how the brain processes information. What happened was it kind of short term memory. And even though I would study for hours, it didn't always show when I took the test what, what I was truly capable of. So based on my grades, it was like, Oh, she daydreams. A lot of you know, she's, you know, was it more like C or D, as opposed to what could have been an ARB? And you know, that then they kind of like labeled you according to your grades? Michael Hingson  10:42 Well, yeah. And how did your your classmates react? Or how did they deal with you? Davida Shensky  10:50 Well, it was I was teased a lot. I was the they kind of played on my name and how they said it, and it was it well, let's let's back up. I once had someone called me and asked me out for a date. And somebody told me, they were not going to show that she never know for certain so you get ready, but I never expected it. And of course, they didn't show. Yeah, they were playing. Yeah, they were they get together and they flow. Let's let's see what we can do to play a game on. Michael Hingson  11:28 There's a lot of meanness in in kids. And do you think, you know, given what you do now, and we I definitely want to get into that. But do you think that's changed a lot for kids with disabilities in school today? Davida Shensky  11:44 It's changed, so but it's still got a long way to go. And the thing is that because of our IV, A, which is individual disability, disability education, that, and it's mainstreaming kids into the classroom, when they're capable of keeping up that people with abilities are seeing more people with disabilities. So they're a lot more accepting than what they were in the past, because people with disabilities and severe disabilities were hidden away. And they just didn't know that they existed. And it was not talked about. Michael Hingson  12:27 Do you think that kids in the classroom, take that approach? Are they more still into the bullying mentality? Do you think they are starting to understand the difference and that, in reality, there's nothing wrong with someone just because they happen to be different? Davida Shensky  12:46 I believe there is. Because when when you see a whole group of people that have specific disabilities, then it's it's not. It's easier to accept, then if you just see one or two people. Yeah, it's like, Okay, I've got one person, they are their friends. I know what you know, the ignorance of what a disability was at that time, because it was not talked about today, it's talked about, and you see the pirate complex, and you see people who have lost limbs in the war or whatever. So it's a little bit more accepting, although it's still got a long way to go to become mainstream. Michael Hingson  13:37 Yeah. I know. In the case of blankets, for example, we see so little emphasis on doing some of the things that really make sense. That is, for example, teaching Braille, which is the main vehicle for reading and writing available to blind kids, not only totally blind kids, but a lot of children who are partially blind, who are low vision, but who cannot see well enough to read regular print. And by using large print or magnified print, it causes a lot of eyestrain, so they'll never be able to be able to read as quickly or as efficiently as a sighted person or a blind student that does get the opportunity to learn to read Braille, but unfortunately, I think still even today in the educational system, it is always or let me never say always, it is often basically said that a child who has some eyesight gets to read print, while a totally blind child has to learn to read braille, and you can see the distinction gets to as opposed to has to, even though the child who reads Braille may very well be a much better reader than someone Who has some vision, who doesn't get the opportunity to learn to use Braille and as a result, has to use large print that doesn't give them all the luxury and efficiency of truly having a reading and writing language that they can use? Well, Davida Shensky  15:20 you know, even when in technology, when people look to build, build websites today, they don't always think about accessibility. Michael Hingson  15:33 They don't. And, in fact, hence the company that I work for accessiBe, which is all about creating products to help websites become accessible for a variety of disabilities. And it is very much true that website access isn't just something that is relating to a person who is blind and might not be able to see graphics and so on on the internet, there are so many disabilities that need to be addressed, not being able to use a mouse for a variety of reasons or having epilepsy. And as a result, not being able to experience cursors that blink and need a different way to make that happen, or cognitive disabilities or ADHD. All of those are issues that invoke a need for access that oftentimes we don't pay attention to. Davida Shensky  16:31 Heard that, I think is that until people with disabilities, that more people with disabilities actually have their own business or, or become managers and business owners, where they're more visible, and still going to be kind of a situation where it's a secondary idea to the majority of people, it's like when it becomes I guess the the best way is to equate it with Christianity and Judaism, that we live in a country where it's more Christians than Jews, and yet, especially in the Baptist religion, it's like, they consider Catholics and Protestants that, you know, kind of like not being I don't want to say that non Christians, because of the doctrines or the ways they look Michael Hingson  17:33 at it. But I think it goes beyond us owning our own businesses. Because that may or may not make some of it more visible. We, we really need to create an environment that's more inclusive in general. The The fact is that there are some who say, and rightly so let's deal with access, that the only way to make a website accessible, or the best way, some say the only way, which is not true, but the best way to make a website accessible, is to really do it from the outset. And I can accept that concept. Except how's that working for us, we don't generally see websites as being accessible from the outset. In fact, probably no more than about 2% of all websites today, even pay much attention to accessibility. No matter what the disability, some websites may very well be usable. But they haven't really done all that or anything that they need to do to create access. So we have an environment where we don't create web accessibility from the outset. And that's something that we have to teach and that needs to go into our schools and that all of our programmers need. But even if we do it, we then need to make sure that websites continue to remain accessible. It isn't just doing it the first time. Davida Shensky  19:09 That's true. I'm also gonna go back and say that even a lot of the laws started changing, like with the Rehabilitation Act of 1973. It addresses all of the issues that come up under the Americans with Disabilities Act. But what makes the ADEA more enforceable is that clause that says that if an individual can prove that they're being discriminated against, they can go to the EEOC or they can go to the Department of Justice and file a lawsuit. Michael Hingson  19:48 The difficulty is that courts have also said however, you got to prove intent. Right. And that has been part of the difficulty it. And the other part is that some legal minds have challenged the issue of accessibility, let's say for the internet saying, well, the ADEA came along before the internet. So clearly, it doesn't apply even though the ADEA does not in any way, mentioned, places of physical accommodation. It talks about places of business, leaving, leaving aside title two, which deals with the government and federal agencies, Title Three, deals with places of business and it doesn't say physical or not, which is the way it ought to be. Because it doesn't matter where you conduct business, you need to make sure that what you do is available to all. Davida Shensky  20:45 That's true. And I, we also need to look at the mentality or behavior patterns. Because what we learn as children is what we how we are as adults. And until you really get to where children come up, truly integrated with people with disabilities in the classroom, there's still going to be prejudiced. Michael Hingson  21:15 Sure. And until we can break down that fear barrier, because that's what it really is, is that people have so much fear around something that's different than they. And they don't recognize that, in reality, disability is something that anyone can face. Suddenly, even if your life didn't start out being that way. And again, I, I don't have a better term than disability. But the reality is, disability doesn't and shouldn't mean in our case, no ability or a lack of ability. It is a way to, to categorize us like it or not as being different. But it shouldn't mean that we don't have ability, because if we're going to talk about ability, every person who has eyesight has a disability, and that is that your light dependent, you can't function well in the dark. That's why we have light bulbs. That's why we have candles, and before that we had torches and other things like that. But the reality is, those are all accommodations that have been created to allow you to be able to function in an environment without light. Davida Shensky  22:33 And then if you remember, prior to Ada, Ada was when they started changing the terminology, that it was always handicaps. And if you remember back in the very beginning of the 20th century, when people used to stand with a cap in hand, asking for money, and that's what handicap means. And that's it still had the mentality of the majority of people. Is that someone getting ahead there? Michael Hingson  23:09 Yeah. And in reality, we can change perceptions of words, words are very strong and very powerful. But I, for example, have maintained for a long time that diversity isn't what it used to be. Diversity very rarely includes disabilities today, even though what diversity means is we have a very wide range of categories of people that exist, and we're supposed to recognize all of them. But we generally don't include disabilities in that. And it's the same fear that causes that. So we haven't really seen the breakdown in terms of moving forward with that, and I'm not sure what it will take to change that. But maybe what we need to do is to get another president who has a disability, Franklin Roosevelt has been forgotten for that. Davida Shensky  24:06 What that was, that's right. Also, if you back in the 1980s, when corporations started bringing in trainers, and they would talk about diversity, they would they would not include disability, but what they would talk about is the different cultures or the different religions, but they never talked about difference and showing someone with a disability as opposed to someone with ability and showing just how, just because you're able bodied doesn't mean that you're any you're really any difference Michael Hingson  24:46 or any better. Yeah. And that is what Hopefully, people will get to understand. Well, tell me what degrees do you have so you went on to high school Cool, and you went to college and did all sorts of stuff like that. And Davida Shensky  25:03 yeah, I have an Associate's in mental health. I have credits. I have a bachelor's in psychology. And then I also have credits towards a master's and rehabilitation counseling. Not that I wanted to become a rehabilitation counselor, as I wanted to learn about the laws. And then I went on and got certification and psychodrama and certified in using transactional analysis. And both of those modalities are Natl, basically, repackaged under the laws of attraction. And I'm certified as a law of attraction coach, as well as a career coach and a life coach. Michael Hingson  25:54 And the law of attraction. In some ways, it's certainly become a very popular concept on the internet, and I think in probably the minds of a lot of people. But again, that gets misinterpreted too. Davida Shensky  26:09 I actually have someone send me an email that it's a company called bach.com is out of the UK. And they sent me an email a we have clients that need your services, really, and truly the way they have set up and what they did was they sent me a copy of a lead, but they no get people to call in and tell them what their needs are. They just asked him a few basic questions. Like, are you looking for a life? What kind of coach Are you looking for, or what kind of issues do you want to deal with, and then they give you a one to five chance to bid on a lead. And now, you can register for free, then you can upgrade for a monthly fee to become an Elite Pro, which they've all they do is put some type of badge on your profile, but you have to buy credits, to be able to approach these leads that they sent you. And when you upgrade for the first batch, what they do is they don't let you know upfront Well, if you don't make any sales, you get those credits back. But if once you start getting low, they will automatically add more credits in charge your checking account. Now, when I started looking at a majority of those needs were people that had either management or they were looking to have an insurance pay for the services. Well, if you're just a certified life coach, and you do not have licensure as a psychotherapist, insurance companies will not pay for your services. And I'm actually before I actually upgraded, I met looking for some reviews and couldn't find any. But then when I went to put a complaint in all of a sudden out of bounds, some reviews, and there was someone in there that said that every that what she found was that and I'm assuming she kept probably buying more and more credits, because she said she had to keep lowering her fees, just because no one would purchase it and still never got a sale. So what that means is that particular company is more about putting money in their pocket as opposed to really being a lead generation company. But people who need services, Michael Hingson  29:04 there are a lot of those in the world, whether it's dealing with, with what you're talking about, or in so many areas, Davida Shensky  29:13 and where mental illness and mental health issues is still a disability issue. So that's also another avenue because mental illness is something that's a hidden disability. It's not something that you can really see other than in someone's behavior, but they can be people who whose behavior is not the best, but they're not truly mentally ill they just have some issues of personal issues they got to deal with based on the environment and the family they've loved in when you went into Michael Hingson  29:55 the workforce what what did you specifically joined the workforce to do, Davida Shensky  30:02 actually, because my background was in mental health and psychology, I'm qualified I went, I applied to the merit system in Georgia. And I qualified for positions that was done, if you remember the title, where it was more of a social work position, oh, Human Services technicians thing, there was the title. And then there was also a mental health counselor. But the the because I wanted to work with disability agencies, the first company that I got hired on with, there's a company that was really a daycare center for people with developmental disabilities at the time, but once the laws began to change, and the state came in and took over those agencies, they, what happened was that the woman that was running at that became the Executive Director, she was just a, what happened was, she did not have the true qualifications to be an executive director. So any Hurst people that came in, in my position, if they weren't forced out within the first six months, and they got, you know, their permanent status, that automatically they would start pulling back on the roster to get another position somewhere else, because she couldn't, or she, she felt threatened by those in that position. And when my six month probationary period was coming up, she basically said to me, if you don't reply, you're gonna be fired. And so and then after that, I could never get back on with the state. And my only other alternative was, and I would have eventually done this anyway. But I would have waited, so I was more financially secure. And I found that I wanted to do rent groups using transactional analysis and psychodrama, but they were, whereas they were more acceptable up in the north, they weren't as accepting or, or known modalities in the south. And what because I didn't have the actual masters, or PhD as a psychotherapist. I couldn't get in with the hospitals, the mental health hospitals. And then it eventually evolved into the speaking industry, and more involved with National Speakers Association, Georgia chapter, and Toastmasters. And what because I didn't have as much mobility, and didn't have transportation to get around as easily. My business never quite got off the rail. But once the technology evolve, but being able to build a business online, it's really taken off. And now it's taken off is that I've shifted from going into companies doing the training, but creating the E learning courses, and putting them on various platforms. And what one of the companies run with is called one education or educators. And I got a nice little surprise from them. And I got a nice paycheck this month. And they also sent me an email that they partnered with a company called E learning solutions. So that may have been why my paycheck for them for my courses increased astronomically. Michael Hingson  33:56 And it's unfortunate that all too often, no matter how much in the way of qualifications you actually had, because you didn't have that PhD that that tended to limit you. Do you think that's as true today? Or do people now more recognize that there are other kinds of things including experience and so on, that should open up opportunities for you? Davida Shensky  34:26 I think the experience as much as anything opens up the opportunities. But also it you know, it's like what I've been able to do is because of my background in mental health in psychology, and my and my background in rehabilitation counseling, which is career counseling, that I've been able to do more in the line of the life coaching and the career coaching, and then getting the certifications with those particular industry. Ah, and then it's just a matter of like, how am I going to sell myself to my potential clients? Michael Hingson  35:06 Right? So when did you enter the workforce? What year? Davida Shensky  35:10 Actually 1977? Michael Hingson  35:12 Okay, so. So there you go. And when you entered it did leaving aside things like what you described about the director of that agency and so on? Did you face much real discrimination from a disability standpoint, when you started, and, again, how has that changed over the years? Davida Shensky  35:37 Very much so because even once I lost my job with the state, I could never get back on with the state. And I and even though I would be applying to switch positions within corporations are small businesses, they, and even though you had the Rehabilitation Act of 1973, there were a lot of things that, you know, they just didn't hire people with disabilities. And when the laws change, and ADA came in, what was then known as the defects, but just the will the disability, business technical assistance centers, they patch right now they call the ADA Centers, but they are really just a support system, to see to it, that what the cooperations need. And even though it took ABA, before companies were willing to start looking at people with disabilities, as even, you know, and, and doing the other patients in the workplace, so that, you know, but having to comply with ADA. So there was it was more of an opening not until the early 2000s, or the late 1990s, before corporations and companies really started looking at hiring people with disabilities. And one of the things is, if you went to the rehabilitation services, they, if you went to their employment specialist, their employment specialists really didn't know how to serve the disability community in getting jobs, other than telling them things like I have these job function positions. Now, here's the book, go in and find the company that's gonna let you come in and train other people. And it was more of going into the restaurants and teaching people with developmental disabilities to be to bus tables, you know, it was the most the low paying low skilled jobs that were really open and not the mainstream companies like IBM, that were really open to hiring people with disabilities, Michael Hingson  38:09 I should have asked, when you were presented with that offer to resign or get fired? What choice did you make? Well, I Davida Shensky  38:16 ended up deciding if I was gonna just to resign, it was better to just resign instead? Of course I am because either way, it's still meant the same thing. Michael Hingson  38:29 So the reason I asked that question was, the difference is that technically speaking, the way you described it, if you were fired, you couldn't get back in to a state position because you've been fired. And you have to accept all the consequences of that, such as they are. But if you resigned, and correct me if I'm wrong, technically speaking, you should have been able to attain or obtain other positions within the state, correct? Yes. So the, Davida Shensky  39:05 here's the thing, when they would go and get reviews, remember, like she was a she became an ex employer. So they would go to her and say, What kind of employee is she? I guess what she did give me a good review. And that also, if when you work within the state merit system, it's usually what I don't think she really wanted to hire me to begin with that because I was that that's higher on that list. She had to give me the position. So that's also how it works within the merit system. So even though I might have been interviewed in these mental health centers, where I would have gone in and done counseling, as opposed to, you know, just being a like, in a social work position where I would represent the Clients and go to meetings and make sure that they got the services they, they deserved it, I was never able to get back in to the state. Michael Hingson  40:11 Did that ever change for you? Davida Shensky  40:13 No. I mean, once I kept, let's put it this way Rehabilitation Services Employment, the employment specialist should have been able to say, Hey, I've got contacts within these companies. I am looking at your background. I can, you know, I can send you out for interviews, they should have been able to do that. He never said that to me. Michael Hingson  40:39 Yeah. Which all too often happens in the rehabilitation admin. Well, the rehabilitation environment, and it is so unfortunate. We had the opportunity to in an earlier podcast episode interview, Kirk Adams, who is the president and CEO of the Lighthouse for the Blind. And he made the comment that there was a meeting where both rehabilitation counselors and HR people were present. And the HR people constantly said, it was the rehabilitation counselors that never really did the research or understood what needed to be done to bring people with disabilities in and the rehabilitation counselors always said that the HR people were the stumbling blocks. So you know, near the twain seem to be able to meet, Davida Shensky  41:30 I think all they were doing was passing along the blame, especially because, first of all, your aid, your rehabilitation services, people and your HR people should have been working together to help each other understand they should have been educating each other. What's the job? What are the skills needed? And how can your client fit into this? It's like, many, many years ago, my sister who's deaf, went through rehabilitation services in New York, to get a job. And what did they do? They sent you on a job where she needed to answer the phone. Now, how could someone who's deaf, answered the phone, and they was back then she was actually trained to do use dos. And dos is just programming software. There's no people who were deaf were easily placed in jobs. And yet she was not getting the right kind of job for her. Michael Hingson  42:38 Yeah. And that's, of course, the disconnect. Right? Where's the logic and doing that? And there is not I mean, the so it's a rhetorical question, but there really is done. So for you, how long did you keep trying to get into state opportunities? And then what did you do if you weren't able to get in? Davida Shensky  43:02 That's when I when I what I did was I looked at that education, I looked at my experience, I looked at where my skills lied. And that's what I said, Okay, let me see if I can, I can start my own business doing as using my training and transaction analysis and psychodrama to run groups and went to the mental health hospitals in the mental health centers. And because I didn't have that PhD, I was they were not going to refer business to me. Now, I do have a friend that was living in California, that was a licensed family, and marriage therapist, and a lot of referrals came from the insurance companies. And then it notoriously, they were slow to pay. Yeah. So what did you do? Here's, that's, that's what I'm saying insurance companies, if the client even in poc.com, is sitting there saying, Well, my insurance is gonna pay, even if they end up firing you insurance. They only pay you every three months, and pay you back pay. But what are you doing that three months that they're not paying you? Michael Hingson  44:23 Right? So what did you do if you weren't getting the referrals? Davida Shensky  44:27 That's when I slept. That's when I looked at the fact that I came across a company at the time that was called Performax which was assessment profiles and to become a distributed with and training, how to use the desk and other assessment profiles like leadership profile, the listening profile, the values profile, and taking those and also, a company called Personal dynamics are switching to have the fully training packages. And though into companies as a trainer, and that's also training as a speaker and getting up in front of groups, and also want to try to work with companies like to set seminars, but because I don't make good eye contact, and because when I speak I, it's not a smooth way or whatever, I couldn't always get on with those companies. But what I did was, I went directly to the associations, and I went directly to the corporations to offer to sell, sell some of my profiles to them, and come in and do train the trainer sessions. Michael Hingson  45:52 And how did that work? It was, Davida Shensky  45:55 I made some money, but it was not as consistent and it was not as good as growing, because a lot of those companies at the time were built on what, what's known as multi level marketing. So if you like there were other people in the industry that knew that I specialized in a sport and a certain aspect of it, and instead of referring business to me, because I wasn't in their downline, and they weren't gonna make money off of it. I was never getting those types of referrals either. Michael Hingson  46:30 So obviously, it was kind of a struggle. And I guess the question would be, so then what happened? Davida Shensky  46:37 Well, it's just slowly, I just stopped them. A lot of what I did was knowing that I wanted to start a nonprofit that would serve people with disabilities, who wanted to become entrepreneurs, I went to work with a company where it was going to kind of going voted, go up, selling down our business to business with specific items to sell them as a fundraiser and, and then I worked with a company, then I went out on my own, and that brought in a lot more consistent income. And then that was also about the time that the internet started to grow. And I was able to move everything online. And that's when I started my podcast back in 2007. Michael Hingson  47:30 So you, you started, basically, somewhat of an online business, and you started working with companies going door to door? And what what did you eventually do about starting the nonprofit, Davida Shensky  47:44 I actually got the paperwork and went to Lagos zoo to get it started. But then to get the 501, C three, I had to pay a certain amount of money or a fee to get the accreditation just didn't have that money. So it kind of all got big, it all got put on hold, and never quite got off the ground either. And I knew that I needed some people in the business industry that would support what I was doing, and helped me raise the funds. I had one person that was a small business owner, but I never quite got any people in the corporate world to take an interest in the organization. So that kind of you know that a lot of those things. It's, it's like people, you'll see people who start nonprofits, and they bring that they bring their friends on to the board. Well, a few friends are great. But if they don't know how to help you raise money for your organization and get it out there and get it know that it's never going to grow. Michael Hingson  48:59 So what did you do? Davida Shensky  49:00 So it's kind of still on the back burner with that organization. It's, it's still something I want to do. But I'm thinking more in terms of eventually just setting it up as a foundation that people with disabilities can apply to, to get funding. So also, I've come across several organizations in Europe that had already gotten off the ground and had connections with financial organizations that would be willing to offer financial financing to people with disabilities who are starting up a business. So it's it's it's the potential is out there is a little bit more difficult to get up and moving in the United States. And if you look at what's happening in politics today, that's also what affecting Whether or not a nonprofit that serves the disability community other than say, if it's for the blind, or if it's for people who would almost say autistic or specific, then what happens is they got more people who have children who have those types of disabilities that are coming together and working with them. Michael Hingson  50:24 So you do a podcast, how often is the podcast on? Davida Shensky  50:29 My podcast is every Saturday on a weekly basis? And I've been doing it for close to 16 years that way? Michael Hingson  50:38 Wow. Well, we'll come back to to that in a minute. But so what is your main way of generating income? What are you doing primarily in the workforce today? Or are you or what is it you do to help people today? Davida Shensky  50:56 My, my main income today is coming through my membership sites, my elearning courses, and I'm more involved with putting together joint ventures that I have done in the past. Michael Hingson  51:18 Can you tell me something about some of those like, your courses, your elearning, site, and so on. Davida Shensky  51:25 They deal with personal development, things like team building, listening skills, communication skills, body language, listening, and also starting a business as an entrepreneur, being able to use digital marketing with being able to create a website. And just specific areas like that. Michael Hingson  51:54 How's that? Is that working out pretty well for you? Davida Shensky  51:57 It does, it does. And the way I say it also comes into play Awesome. Now, the best way to look at it is, if I'm talking about and my business, then what I need to do is look at how specifically they they work together. And what's happening is that I've also gotten involved with some companies, where it's affiliate marketing, and then through some of my courses, I've created some high end products. So I can offer them as an affiliate program, and an offering them as an affiliate program, then that's allowed me to have a Salesforce of people who actually can go out and such sell my products. And then they are information on it. But let me quickly lay it out for you. So you can understand exactly how I say it so that it'll work. And what I've also been able to do is create that I've been able to go on summits for other companies, and be a presenter. Now, here's how I would say it. If I'm talking to someone who wants to learn how to build a business online. And I would say entrepreneurs hire me to recession proof their business and increase their bottom line by assisting them to build an e commerce Store to establish multiple streams of income, because they're intimidated. When it comes to incorporating technology into their business. They fear losing sustainable income, and they don't know how to incorporate social media into the marketing plan. So bottom line, I can help someone launch grow and expand a home based business. Now if I'm talking to someone on the personal development side, I would say I'm a career and personal development strategy coach, and entrepreneurs who are in search of personal development, and learning success strategies. Hire me to overcome their limiting beliefs and develop healthy habits, a successful mindset and smart goals. So bottom line, I can help you develop a more positive attitude, set achievable goals and make better choices in life. Michael Hingson  54:43 And that is certainly a good way to put it. And it's it is about helping people to improve. And of course, that's what we all want to do. How have you helped the disability community in general, through what you've done? How do you feel you had an effect on the community. Davida Shensky  55:03 When I lived in Atlanta, I was a, I was very active with the access group. And I was also very active with the gym chats. And when the power Olympics was a rather, let's back up when the Atlanta IOC wanted to bid for the Olympics. At that time, the Olympics and the Para Olympics were actually bid for separately. And they bid for the Olympics. And they refuse to bid for the Para Olympics. So it was the disability community that got together and bid for the Paralympics, and brought it to Atlanta. And then the head of the IOC at the time, basically went in and change the bylaws so that any host country who bids for one is automatically bidding for both. So they're known since 1996. They have not been good for separately they've been bid for as one unit. And another thing that I did was whenever the opposite the access, whenever thing we put on job fairs for people with disabilities, I was a volunteer with them, and would work with someone that was blind, to take them around to the tables, so they can interview for positions. Michael Hingson  56:35 And it makes sense that the Olympics should be handled that way and that there should be emphasis put on it in the same way that the Olympics is portrayed. Do you think that there is room for people in parallel Olympics, at least to some degree, to be able to be encouraged or to be able to take more of a part in the standard Olympics rather than being if you will put in the Paralympics environment? Or do you think that they're so different, that they really have to be separate? Davida Shensky  57:16 I think really, they should very much be interconnected. And it's like, in fact, the South African runner who had competed in the Olympics, I mean, it competed in the Paralympic seat. The lat he competed in the Olympics one year, didn't do very well, but he did at least compete. And since then, he accidentally kill someone and his spending county jail. I cannot remember his name. Michael Hingson  57:49 Well, I asked the question because I have a friend who was an acclaimed international rowing competitor. And she participated in the Paralympics, they've never asked her or discussed why they didn't just be part of the actual Olympics, and rowing teams and so on. And it just seems to me that there are certainly a number of people who ought to be able to be part of the regular Olympics. Regular is the wrong term deal Olympics as opposed to the parallel Olympics. Davida Shensky  58:31 They should, but you know, it still falls back on how society works and people with disabilities. Michael Hingson  58:41 There you go. And that's the problem, isn't it? Davida Shensky  58:46 There's no reason why they cannot be what interconnected. And when the media covers on Olympic competitions, that they also compete, or they show people with disabilities competing, because think about it. In the Winter Olympics, you have what is it snowboarding, in the Paralympics, you have snowboarding the differences in in Paralympics, you might have someone doing it one with one leg. And they might they could still be compete at the same level as people in the audience. But here's the thing, how many times when people think of the Paralympics, they get it interchange with Special Olympics. Think about it because in Special Olympics, everyone gets a medal. But in the Paralympics, the metal the metal basically very similar in the way that people in the Olympics. Get metal, you know, first, second or third way X, Michael Hingson  1:00:00 and how often the parent do the Paralympics get the same amount of media, television coverage and so on. As the Olympics. Davida Shensky  1:00:11 Actually people don't even know it even exists because we just had the Winter Olympics. And everyone knew when the when the Olympics was on, but no one knew that a month later, that, you know, rather three weeks later, the Paralympics started because the Meet the media, the sports does not cover it in the same way. Michael Hingson  1:00:37 How many of the events in the parallel Olympics actually show levels of competition and numbers? At the end of events that are pretty much the same? Well, no, are the same as what you would see in save the Winter Olympics this past? February? What I'm getting at is the Paralympics, people compete, as you said, in snowboarding, the Paralympics have a number of events that are equivalent to like what we had with the Winter Olympics. Are the results pretty similar in terms of times or whatever we use to measure who wins? Davida Shensky  1:01:23 I think so. I mean, if they're competing against against the boards, and gymnastics, and stealing, and all the same types of of events. And if people would see below the level at which someone with a disability is able to compete, then maybe it might change some of their attitudes. Now, think about it. When salary started, well, let's look in the United States. You have the Warrior Project, and they have a Olympic style competitions. Now, Prince Harry started, what is it? The Invictus Games, right? And it's still the same thing. You still have you still have wheelchair basketball, you still have the exact you know, in the Summer Olympics, whereas you have basketball, the Olympics, you're that wheelchair basketball? How Michael Hingson  1:02:29 possible would it be for wheelchair basketball players to compete on the same court at the same time? With people who don't use chairs? You know, I don't know. I don't know. So Davida Shensky  1:02:42 well, versus Did you know it? I don't think they ever really tried it. I understand that seem to me that if they tried it, it might show just how athletic someone is using a wheelchair. Yeah. But here's the thing in Atlanta, we have what's known as the beat straight. And the road race, which is a six pack, yes, six cut or no. And before the rubbish stop, you've got the wheelchair racers, and they go first. And then and you know, and they will post what they're fine next, and then you and then you've got the runners and the p3 can have as many as 50,000 or more runners. Right. And that's usually it's like you have to get certain accreditations to take part in other events. And the 10k is one of the ones that someone has to take part in other events in order to qualify to participate in the 10k and the peach tree. So sometimes you will have runners who are from Kenya or from other countries who participated in the Olympics that actually come to participate in the Peachtree road race, and they're usually the elite runners, and they're usually the ones that win not just everyday runner that participates. Michael Hingson  1:04:27 Right. Well, okay, but if those are the standards they are now the question is, would a person in a chair running the race have a better or worse time on average, or can they be as competitive equivalently speaking as the elite Davida Shensky  1:04:46 competitive is you've ever seen some of those kids like they use their racing chairs and that they really could just go off to high speeds and those chairs Mine is even better than some of the elite runners. They compete in the peach tree. Michael Hingson  1:05:06 What I'm what I'm getting at basically, is does one runner have an advantage over another? Does a wheelchair runner have an advantage over the elite runners? if you will? Or can they be an Do you think they should be viewed as equivalent? Davida Shensky  1:05:27 I think they there are. They if they were as one in a race, they would win because those those Wait, those wheelchairs are racers and they can go up to high speed. Michael Hingson  1:05:41 So somebody could argue that a runner is at a disadvantage? Yeah. Interesting argument. Well, where do you see yourself in the next few years? Davida Shensky  1:05:54 Well, probably retired. Michael Hingson  1:05:57 Good for you happen sometime. Davida Shensky  1:06:00 You know, yeah, I see myself what I'm working toward was, is to have bills, and extended extra income, to supplement what I'm currently getting in. So I can live a lot more comfortably. There you are. Michael Hingson  1:06:23 Well, let me ask you this, if people want to contact you and reach out to you and take advantage of your services, or get to know you better, or take your courses, what are the ways to do that? Davida Shensky  1:06:36 Okay, they can, I've got two websites that a membership site, one is askdavidashensky.com The other one is businessblueprintnetwork.com. And also, they can contact me by sending an email to info@1personalcareercoach.com. And if they want to learn more about the types of services that I offer, as well as my courses, they can go to 1personalcareercoach.com And they listed number one that this spelled down. Michael Hingson  1:07:14 So let's go through those again. So if they want your courses, where do they go? Davida Shensky  1:07:21 They go to my one on personal development is askdavidashensky.com Michael Hingson  1:07:27 and spell Davida Shensky? If you would, please. Davida Shensky  1:07:31 D A V I D A S H E N S K Y. So, right. It's, and I have more people that will drop the A and David David spelling. Michael Hingson  1:07:54 So askdavidashensky.com. Yes, I'm in and then what's the next one again? Davida Shensky  1:08:05 Okay. That should be my main website is, is onepersonalcareercoach.com. One, Michael Hingson  1:08:13 I do that once more. Davida Shensky  1:08:15 That's my main website. And that gives them information on my services, on the types of courses I offer, on the types of coaching I offer, and what the prices are, and see that website once more. 1 is the number 1personalcareercoach.com Michael Hingson  1:08:32 1personalcareercoach.com. Okay, well, I hope people will reach out I think you bring a very interesting and positive orientation to all of this. And I believe that you offer a really good perspective that people should learn more about. And I believe as you do, there's a lot of educating to be done and I really appreciate you being out there and and helping in that process because it is what we need to do. Davida Shensky  1:09:13 Thank you for having me. Michael Hingson  1:09:15 Well, thank you for being here. And being with us and taking time out of your day and thank you who are listening to this for taking time to listen and to be a part of unstoppable mindset. Please tell your friends about us. And please don't hesitate to review us we would appreciate a five star rating wherever you're getting this podcast from. If you'd like to reach out to me I hope you will you can email me at Michaelhi M I C H A E L H  I at accessibe A C C E S S I B E .com. We'd love to get your emails and we'll respond. If you'd like to be a guest we'd like to hear hear about that too. As Davida will tell you, we do engage and we will respond to emails, right? Davida Shensky  1:10:07 Yes, you do. Michael Hingson  1:10:08 And if you'd like to learn more about the podcast, please visit www.Michaelhingson.com. That's M I C H A E L H I N G S O N.com/podcast. So again, thank you all for listening. And thank you to Vita for being here today. Davida Shensky  1:10:30 Thank you, y'all have a nice day.  Michael Hingson  1:10:32 You too, and all of you out there as well and join us again next week. For the next episode of unstoppable mindset. Michael Hingson  1:10:42 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com. accessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

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Jimmy Newson is unstoppable as it gets. However, his mindset came over time through lots of learning, trial and error. In this episode you will meet a man who discovered that life is more then what is in our own back yard. Jimmy had the opportunity in school to be confronted with challenges to expand his horizons and he decided to take advantage of what his teachers offered. He will tell you about how he became the person he now describes himself as, “The Impact Influencer”. His business and marketing adventures have taken him far and wide geographically and experientially. He even came to value the need to promote accessibility and inclusion. Please let me know how you like this show through ratings and your email comments to michaelhi@accessibe.com.    Some directories do not show full show notes. For the complete transcription please visit https://michaelhingson.com/podcast   About the Guest: Jimmy Newson is the founder and CEO of Moving Forward Small Business, a membership-based digital publishing company on a mission to save a million small businesses from failure by 2050, leveraging technology, innovation, and business strategy. He is also the senior advisor for the New York Marketing Association. He presents workshops and trainings regularly with the Start Small Think Big, NY Public Library, SCORE, Digital Marketing World Forum, DC Start-Up Week, and multiple international SaaS companies.   About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app.   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.     Transcription Notes Michael Hingson  00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i  capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson  01:23 Well, hi, everyone, and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset, the podcast where inclusion, diversity, and the unexpected meet and I think you've seen on all of our episodes, any of that can happen. Kimmy Newsom is our guest today. And Jimmy is a very clever guy. He founded moving forward small business and he has done a number of other things. I met Jimmy through AccessiBe which is another company that we have talked about some on these podcasts, it makes internet websites more usable. And Jimmy is an AccessiBe partner. But we're here to talk about Jimmy today, and what he's done and why He's unstoppable. And I suppose AccessiBe might be a part of that. But really, it is just part of Jimmy's life. So Jimmy, welcome to unstoppable mindset.   Jimmy Newson  02:13 Michael, thank you for inviting me, I'm excited. And I absolutely love the name of this podcast. And it's it's it definitely puts puts the mind in a position to understand there's a lot more at stake than what you might even think of on a regular basis.   Michael Hingson  02:31 Well, and I, I think that it's it's a name that evolved. When I started looking at what to do during the pandemic, I had thought about the concept of creating a list and writing a book called blinded by fear. Because people in general are blinded by fear when something unexpected happens that you can't deal with, you just can't make decisions. And what I realized along the way is that that is because people are being blinded or just totally overwhelmed with fear, and they haven't learned to control it. It's something that was a factor in my surviving the World Trade Center, although I didn't know at the time, but I have been developing techniques to control fear, which isn't to eliminate it because fear is a very valuable thing. But you can control it, which helps to make you unstoppable, which is how we got here. I love it. Love it. So tell me a little bit about you. And you know where you're from early, early life that might be relevant and how it got you to where you are.   Jimmy Newson  03:35 Oh, okay, well,   Michael Hingson  03:37 how's that for an opening?   Jimmy Newson  03:38 That's an opening that leaves me a lot to paint here. So let me get my paintbrush. Um, you know, I mean, it's, I've always thought a little bit different than my family. My friends, I looked at life, I wouldn't I remember I wouldn't wear brands when I was a kid. Because I felt like if I wore brands that I am endorsing it, not that I knew that that was the word. But I'm not sure why I even thought about that. So I would buy the most generic clothing as a kid just so I didn't look like I was patronizing anything or anybody. And I don't sure how far that went. And I it's funny because I'm now mostly most of my most of my structure is around marketing, which is all about branding. So, it's like I did a whole 180 or 383 60 or whatnot. And as early as seventh grade, I mean, I had entrepreneurial tendencies, but I didn't really know what that was either because that wasn't something in my, in my household in the area I grew up in, you know, either either work for someone or you weren't working. You know, it wasn't about owning a thing or building for something better or looking at the current situation and then determining how can I make this better? It's just what this Is it this is what it is. And so we roll with it. As I started getting a bit older, I got lucky enough to start to be put into classes and say in middle school in high school that were more like advanced classes. But the problem is I was the only one in my neighborhood that would be putting these classes. So I got kind of separated from my, from my crew from my clique. And but I started to learn all these new things and see how the how the world really was not necessarily in my neighborhood, but on a larger scale, statewide, across state lines, and I was like, wow, there's a lot more to this whole life thing than what I see in my backyard. And as I started to grow, things started to make more sense, I started to be introduced to organizations, people programs, that really started to help me amplify what I was thinking, but it gave a name to how I was thinking. And so it was just about matching what I felt what, what, what, what could actually be done in life. And, you know, and that's helped me throughout a good majority of my life, and I still practice a lot of this strategy and structure today, and looking at, you know, can I really change the world? Can I really do things I've never done before. And when you talk about that fear factor, I'm now I'm doing a lot more that I've never done before. And I will tell you it is it is scary. It's fearful, because I'm like, I don't know if I can do this. I don't know if this makes sense. What is the guidelines for me to say yes or no, you know, and after wow, I just realized, I'm not even gonna worry about that anymore. Just like your podcast was born out of the pandemic, so was my my newest organization, we were in for small business. Because I it was the same thing people were all of a sudden, they were just frozen in this in their space, because they didn't know what to do, because everything around them was crumbling, in regards to what the pandemic was doing to their business, to their professional life, their personal life. And I said, let's figure out a way to create some, some actionable steps that can help them become I'm paralyzed. And they can actually at least take a small step forward. And they take another small step forward. So it's not about trying to eat the whole elephant, let's take a couple small bites, and continue to do that over and over again. You, you really   Michael Hingson  07:24 tweeker a question in my mind, and that is that you are talking about moving forward, you're talking about doing stuff? Why is it? Well, two questions, one, why is it that more people don't do that? Why is it that people just accept the way things are, if you will mediocrity or whatever? And why did you really decide or what, what caused you to decide to take the step of, okay, maybe it really is broken, we need to fix it, or at least I can move forward? And I don't have to accept things necessarily, just as they are.   Jimmy Newson  08:07 Yeah, and I can answer both of those questions. The first one I, I have my personal opinion on it. And I think is, I think it is when people can experience or see a situation that they didn't know was possible, especially in, in, in relationships to where they currently are in life, who they are the type of person they are, it's easier for them to they when they view it, or they experience it. Now they know it's possible. And when you don't have those, it's almost like that dinner table talk, you know, one dinner, one, one talk at one person's dinner table is you know, the the the mom, the dad, whoever is at the head of the table there, the conversation is around growth, business, maybe relationship building, because they're exposed to that. And so the the the the everyone else around that gets to benefit from that. But when you're not having those conversation at the table, it's not that you don't know that you can go further, you don't know it's possible to go further. And the only reason I knew is because I started getting put into these programs. If it wasn't for those programs, I would not have known I probably would definitely be on another path. And it wouldn't be this one, it wouldn't be the one I'm on because I saw it. I experienced it. So then I realized it's possible. I remember once when I was in Texas working with a colleague back in 2014, and you know, entrepreneurs, so jump forward, entrepreneurs have a tendency of working 90 hours a week and think and think that's normal. And but these entrepreneurs I knew were very successful, extremely financially well off, and they all had time to be family people and and so that was confusing to me because I hadn't seen it and every entrepreneur I know is like a maniac working like crazy. So I want To see, I realized the only way I could understand how I could get that type of balance in my life was to experience it through them. So I went to Dallas where they were, and I spent a week or two with them. So I could go, how are you able to be so successful, but then have time to go home for dinner at 5pm? You know, and so it is about that, you know, you need to be introduced to it. So and let's even take my culture, the African American community or other underserved community areas, and even disabled what take that, when we're able to see other people that are in our position doing these things, we can relate to it better, and then we know who I can do that, because I'm like that person. You know, but you need that. And you need that you need that, that opportunity to see it.   Michael Hingson  10:47 What did you discover that they were doing that you weren't?   Jimmy Newson  10:51 Is it really about time and here's an example, we think that we as entrepreneurs have to do everything, we think we're the best person for the job. And at the end of day, we're not, you're great at, we're great at certain things. And, and we should focus on that. And what we have to let go of is to control to give other people the ability to help take our dream and take it further. And I remember one of my mentors, he did an interview with the with the gentlemen who started this a restaurant called Fuddruckers, down the more southern based, and he interviewed because I was recording, I was doing a lot of video production. So I was recording the interview. And he goes, Hey, what happened to that incredible program, you are going to use talk that was so amazing, because yeah, I didn't do it. And he looked at him was surprised he goes, Why would you not do something that was so incredible, he goes because I couldn't find the right team to do it. He goes, No matter how successful I am at when I come up with a program or project, if I can't find the right team to run it, because I already know I don't have the time to do it. It doesn't go until I find the team. And that's what we don't do as entrepreneurs, we think that we have to do it. So we have three companies, and all three companies are depending on us feeding it. And when we don't feed it, they don't move. And three years later, we still got these three companies, but none of them have moved an inch.   Michael Hingson  12:19 What we don't tend to realize is that we're not feeding it with the right food. And I understand exactly what you're saying. I know I learned along the way in sales, and sales management, that unlike a lot of people who are in those positions, my job should not be to boss people around to tell them what to do. Because they may do it, which is probably a sign of weakness because they don't have enough strength in their own convictions. Or they won't do it because they decide that they're right. And it doesn't matter what I decided that and realized I needed to do was to add value and to figure out how I could enhance what they did as the manager. And so one of the things that I eventually started doing was telling people I hired, I'm not here to boss you around, I'm hiring you because I believe you have convinced me that you can do the job, I will always be a second person on your team. And the result is that what I need to do is to work with you to figure out how I can best add value to you, which does mean that I need to know what they do. And I need to to experience what they did by learning, sales and so on. But as the team manager or the company leader, I have to step beyond that and figure out with them how to add value. And if they can't figure that out? Or if we can't figure that out on their resistance, then we have a different problem.   Jimmy Newson  13:56 Yeah, absolutely. And so that, so that was a great eye opener, because it i Of course, I had a number of businesses. And I was definitely that guy. And after that I really started to reinvent my tire structure to even right now, moving forward, small business is my main focus. And that never would have been before. But I understand the value of this type of focus, because the success of that organization will give me the resources to still go into other areas of entrepreneurship, but only focus on what I do best and support that new organization with that and then go What's the rest of the team look like?   Michael Hingson  14:34 Yeah, and how can you work with them and and help them to find their roles?   Jimmy Newson  14:40 Absolutely. Yep. And it's good to when you had that buy in? I think it's stronger for you. Because it's not just you come up with an idea with others validating the fact that this is a good idea.   Michael Hingson  14:54 Yeah, and when it gels, it really gels and you expand   Jimmy Newson  15:00 Yes, yes, absolutely. So it's so that those are some of the lessons I've learned and, you know is is you can still have, you can still have your cake and eat it too and be in a number of different places, you just have to structure yourself. So it makes sense. And everybody gets in everybody can win in this scenario.   Michael Hingson  15:19 Yeah, which, which is the way it really ought to be everyone should be able to win, which is why it's so frustrating watching what's going on in our world today, where there's so much fracture occurring, and nobody is listening, and no one seems to be, or very few people seem to really be looking for solutions. Because people aren't really looking for solutions. They just wanted their way or nothing at all.   Jimmy Newson  15:46 Yeah, we call that we call that radio station wi I fm. What's in it for me? Yeah.   Michael Hingson  15:53 And the reality is, if people work together, there's so much more that's in it for them, and they will win. And that makes it so difficult today.   Jimmy Newson  16:02 Yeah, absolutely.   Michael Hingson  16:04 So how did you get to start this latest business that you have.   Jimmy Newson  16:11 And that's, you know, as, you know, my, my, my transition over the last maybe 15 years or so I started in the music industry. From there, I went into video production on the corporate side, because they had budgets that was fairly nice to get paid. And then then we went, then I went into marketing, because I realized a lot of businesses I was working with, didn't understand how to leverage the video. So I had to give them marketing skills. So I had to up my game. And then as I started giving them marketing skills, I realized their marketing wasn't working is strong if they didn't have a strong business structure for their organization. So I ended up in, in business advising and consulting. And this was at the the the ask of my small business clients, who would go Why don't you just become a consultant? I'm like, why would I do that. And then after hearing that a few times, I would step my game up again, get get whatever certifications or whatever knowledge was necessary to step up to that next stage. And then the next, you know, depends, you know, my focus was heavy on digital marketing, digital marketing is was hot Dan is extremely hot now. And you know, with me selling digital marketing services, you either convincing businesses to get online for the period, or you're showing them that they're not doing it right, and you can help them. So you've got those two types of individuals that you're dealing with or in organizations. And when the pandemic hit, those that weren't online, were basically invisible. And those that were online and weren't doing it well, weren't getting any traction, because they really hadn't put any real focus on being successful online, whether their business was 100% online, or they were brick and mortar looking to add an online component. So as I saw them struggling, I said, Okay, what can we do to help them and that goes back to that fear thing, they just kind of deer in headlights now, because they just didn't know what to do. I caught up a few of my colleagues and said, Hey, give me like, five or 10 minute real simple videos. And the only thing I want you to make sure is in that is an actionable step. So they can take a small step. And it could be in any aspect of digital, whether it's advertising, SEO, online personality, optimizing your Google My Business, which is now I think, Google business profile, now, just something. So I got about 15 to 20 people that do that. And that was kind of like the pre birth. Moving forward, small business, it was more of an initiative. And we started pushing it and promoting it and going, Hey, here's some quick videos, you can watch. If you're just stuck, I started reaching out to some bigger organizations that we were hoping would partner with us so we can spread it out to more businesses. And that's a whole nother story there. And then, and that was that that was probably around April of 2020. And then by next year, I decided that maybe we can take this to a whole nother level because of course, I'm still working with tons of clients and not putting a lot of focus on this but it's still kind of there. And as I saw demand for businesses that needed a lot more information and infrastructure, I decided to turn it into an organization so I put a lot more resources in it built the site started building partnerships with organizations that had the same target small business audience. And now I'm in the midst of some some great partnerships as of today with with the with the likes of like MasterCard and NBA to pull together programming because in addition to being online and making sure you're doing it right now this whole there's this whole push around inclusiveness and economic inclusion and diversity. And everybody wants to play in it. And now we positioned ourselves in a way that we can be a conduit because we focus on one thing, education and how to. And so we are the people don't pay for the work they pay for the house. And we're working on being that how   Michael Hingson  20:22 do you find? This just popped into my head? As a curious question, do you find a difference in businesses that are run? Or chiefly involves younger people, as older people or older people more resistive? Or are you finding that people across the board are curious enough to want to explore how to become more successful?   Jimmy Newson  20:48 I think I they're all curious, what's what has to be consistent is the language you use? I think, you know, I see a lot of businesses, they try to use a single talking point for all of these different, let's say, levels, levels and genres of people. All right, you're going to talk differently to us as an entrepreneur who's in their 20s, and 30s. To someone who's in their 50s. And 60s, you know, they have different motivations on why they want to be in business, they have different motivations on on, on what what that means to them, they have different motivations on why they end up actually starting it. And they have different expectations on what they expect to get out of it. So you have to determine either I'm going to focus on, you know, when we decide to focus programming, we have to, we're now starting to label it. Beginner, intermediate, advanced, early stage, you know, an even age group, I had a conversation today with someone who focuses on small business owners, individuals who are retiring, and looking and looking for something new to do, you know, and they might want to go into business ownership at this point, they have a lot of experience, and they may lack the ability to understand technology. So they have a different set of problems than then someone who was in the 30s. And they grown up on this technology, they just lack experience. So but at the end of day, they all want to be successful. But it's really, if you're going to try to help them then you have to position your message that it makes sense to why they should work with you.   Michael Hingson  22:28 So of course you were, you're now working in a time, where you're incredibly fortunate. You haven't had to teach older people how to run VCRs, right.   Jimmy Newson  22:41 I had my share a VCR as I had to do a VCR is to record one tape to the other tape, and then give that to a friend.   Michael Hingson  22:49 I have we still have a VCR here. And we actually have to, but near the end of the VCR era. I actually found one that verbalize so I could tell when it was was on and the buttons talked, which was really nice. But yeah, it was. But now everything is digitized. Although vinyl is coming back and I have a whole record collection. So I'm glad to see that that vinyl is doing well.   Jimmy Newson  23:17 Yeah, I don't think it ever go out of style. It's easily compatible. You know, I say it looks like I'm looking at your vinyl collection behind you now is that is that your vinyl? That's some of it. Some of it Oh, you might you might you might you know you you're you can do that oh, DJ thing when you're done with this?   Michael Hingson  23:35 Well, I also collect old radio shows as a hobby, and I have a whole bunch of reel to reel tapes. But now most of what I have is is in digital form, which also helps. But I've heard a couple of people say that the value of vinyl is that the audio is really better than all the other stuff. And I think that's especially true because as people digitize things, if you don't do it with a high enough quality, then the audio won't be as good as it should be. But even so, vinyl is is true to the audio no matter what you do, and you're not cutting it off as you as you digitize it in any way. Which is which is kind of the way you would think it would make sense to be but it's a lot of fun to do that. So I collect shows and have a lot of fun with it. Right? See, I asked the question about older people because you know, we, we hear so much in the industry today and in the world. Well, you know, it's time for you to retire. You're too old, you're out of step. And I reject that I don't think that people are out of step. They may not know how to take the next step. But it doesn't mean that they're really out of step and don't want to take it.   Jimmy Newson  24:44 Absolutely. And I agree with you 100% And that's why I was having the conversation today. Because you know for moving forward small business we want to be able to address every every part of our of our audience, and you have that that the group of and this is we're talking we were talking 60 plus 60 years of age plus, you know, because these they have so much still to give. And the it's just about, you know, what did they fit in, if you're not going to give them a chance, and I'm talking these newer companies, if you're not going to give this older generation a chance, then this older generation needs to grab the bull by the horn, and create their own opportunities. And just say, and so the same that applies to a younger individual that we're going to look if no, if you feel like you're not getting the respect, just go out there and try to do it yourself. It applies to everybody.   Michael Hingson  25:34 And look at the knowledge that older people can bring from coming up with companies that really doesn't go out of style, the rules haven't changed, the process may have changed. But the rules haven't changed.   Jimmy Newson  25:48 Well, I'll tell you some really funny, I just started working with score. And so I'm doing a ton of digital training for them. We just scheduled some, some programming for them coming out next month, and in April. And I'm educating not only the mentees, if you're familiar with score, if not, I'll just say for those that are listening, you know, score is an organization backed by the Small Business Administration. And I forget what it stands for, but it's just, I can't remember what score stands for. Yeah, but the last two letters of score is retired executive. So these are very experienced individuals who most of them who have ran very big companies, so their brains are full of knowledge. But the one thing and they confided in me that you know, is that a lot of them came out of the court out of the world, and then went into of course, mentoring, because that's what they're doing. But they didn't have a lot of digital wasn't a thing when they came out. So digital is now a thing. And, and they're able to talk to these mentees about digital, but they're not able to go deep. And now I'm educating them on that side. And then I'm in it. And I'm working with the mentees as well on how they can make sure that they are digital ready. So So organizations need to, to look at, you know, there's so much training, there's so much places where you can get great training to level up, no matter where you are on the spectrum of I know enough about this, and not enough about that. And vice versa. You need to assess yourself and figure out where am I weak? You know, and where am I weak in regards to the things that need to be known. And then go seek some info and get that information. So you can leverage it to take yourself and your business to the next level.   Michael Hingson  27:33 Yeah, and I worked with score back in 1985, when we were doing this small business and got a small business loan, and very much appreciated the guidance that these Retired Executives gave to us because it it taught me a lot. Of course, part of the issue is also being willing to learn.   Jimmy Newson  27:55 Absolutely. I won't work with I have a few people that I've walked away from when I give them a little bit of advice. And I immediately get Yeah, but yeah, but then I go and they go. So when we go, what should we do next? I'll go look, just keep studying. Because I'm like, I don't want to fight you.   Michael Hingson  28:16 Yeah, I'm in. It's amazing. And that is also the other part of it is that some people tend to be resistive to training and to change. And either they're going to learn or they're not. And of course, what we're really talking about here this whole discussion, in part using the vernacular of this podcast is we're teaching people and you're teaching people to be unstoppable.   Jimmy Newson  28:41 Mm hmm. Absolutely. Yeah. So it's, it's, it's so funny you say that, because I actually have pictures of a number of people in my head, that I walked away from it just because I go, you're not teachable? And yeah, it's not worth my time and energy. There's so many more people that can use my services or use my advice. Why am I going to waste it on you?   Michael Hingson  29:05 Yeah, and hopefully, people are willing to take the time to learn. And it's so much more important that we teach people to grow and learn. You know, I'm, I don't know about you. But I remember to this day, various things that happened to me in my life that I think made an impact. And one, for example, was I it was a science teacher in high school. And there were a couple of snippets that he said that always stuck with me and one was that he said that he had read the other day, which is a long time ago now, but about a professor in college who gave a test to his students. It was their final it was a philosophy test. And he said you've got Two hours for the final. And I'll grade you when you're done. So the test started. And he looked around the room and he saw everybody's looking at their papers and then vigorously starting to write. And he saw this one student who looked at his paper, wrote something down, and brought the paper up to the professor and said, I'm done and left. And that student was the only one who got an A, the question was, why? And the student said, why not? And that was the total answer to his question.   Jimmy Newson  30:37 Ah, I love that.   Michael Hingson  30:39 Yeah, and it's, and it's true, why not? It is our job to investigate and to think, and why not? Well, and maybe we'll find an answer. Why not? But we won't know until we look. Yes.   Jimmy Newson  30:53 Yes. You don't know when to get in the water is in start? Oh, it's kind of cold. All right, maybe I need to, now I can adjust myself to this.   Michael Hingson  31:02 Or how do I heat up the water? And you know, there's so many ways you can go, but you're absolutely right. It's, um, it is a matter of choices. And as I said, I, I don't know about you. But I remember just like that various things in my life that occurred. And oftentimes things that people said, that just resonated with me for one reason, and I guess part of it is because I did listen. And I didn't focus on other stuff. I wasn't as easily distracted. I know, some blind people who are, and some blind people who are not easily distracted and will focus. I know, sighted people who are the same way? Well, yeah. But I will say there are a whole lot more of all y'all that are tending to be distracted, then, then then should be and there's, there's relevance and observing, and learning from observation.   Jimmy Newson  31:52 Yeah, this is learning are two huge skills and traits. That will definitely take you far.   Michael Hingson  32:00 So how long have you been conducting these kinds of workshops and so on, and you go all over and do workshops and, and work with companies?   Jimmy Newson  32:08 Yeah, it's, it's, it's funny, because as I battled between owning a business, and being a teacher, when I was a kid, when I was trying to debate on what I wanted to do with my life, and of course, I chose business, because I'm like, I want to make some money. You know, I want to do some stuff, you know, don't make that much teachers, unfortunately. And they should, because they shouldn't know they definitely, you know, well, I've got some of those story. But you in essence, I am a teacher, you and that's what the you know, what, all business and this is why I talk to business owners, I go, you're a teacher, you're a leader. You're Impactor. You're an influencer. And when you it doesn't matter, do you own a public plumbing company or you're you own a restaurant or you own a consulting business, someone's looking up to you, and then learning from you. And now if you want to take yourself to that next level, then you can internalize those, those ditional titles, and start to propel yourself to the next level. i be i started doing these workshops because I all of a sudden, I was good at it, because I had experience. But then I figured out how I can teach that, that skill or that experience to others and help them which is my, one of the biggest I didn't know what I wanted to do as a kid. But I knew I wanted want to do one thing. I wanted to be in front of a lot of people, and I wanted to help. And that is now what I do. I thought at the time it was entertainment. But now I went back into the business world. But I still educate and teach and help and train people all over the world. You know, I've got my first physical speaking event coming up in June in London. I'm ecstatic because, you know, I teach vert, virtually all over the world. This is the first time I'm going to put my foot down in a country and actually open my mouth from a training perspective, which, which excites me and you know, cuz I traveled but it's really been for personal pleasure. So but and when people find out about it, they want to have me come, you know, so it becomes this compound effect. And now you got to figure out what am I going to do with this. So that's the unstoppable part for me is, you know, is when you're doing these things, and you kind of have an idea of why you're doing them, all these other things start to present themselves to you, all these new doors start to open up that you didn't know. But you as long as you stay focused on your purpose, the vision and the mission of you and what you do and why your business exists. Now, all these other great things happen. And so that's just exciting.   Michael Hingson  34:48 What do you think about and how do you respond? When you hear people say, well, one of the top five fears that people have is public speaking and standing in front of an audience and saying something or giving a speech?   Jimmy Newson  35:06 I like this question, because I have an answer.   Michael Hingson  35:11 Me too, but   Jimmy Newson  35:11 I am. I'm an introvert. And if you get on the elevator with me, outside of business, I'm not going to talk to you. Because it's not in my nature. And I really don't care. And I don't mean that in the bad way. But I don't care. You know, I'm just like, I'm good, I ain't got to talk to you. But when you get me, if you hit me with a topic that I care about, you can't shut me up. And you're going to see a whole nother side of me, you're going to see this, you're going to go this guy is not an introvert, he's an extrovert to the to 10 to power. And, and we, as professionals, we specialize in something we're passionate about something. And when you can tap into that, that is what gets you going, and you come out of your shell, you just need the opportunity to do so a prime example is when I go to a live event, I go to a live event, if I'm in the audience, I'm very quiet. Yeah. But when I'm on stage, I'm crushing it is because I of course, I get to pick the topic. And it's something I'm passionate about, and I can go forward. And it's not really about public speaking at that point. It's about helping people based on what I know, and what I what I'm good at. And now that makes you look like it. But it's even better, because it's not, because it's passionate, that's talking, not the fact that you have to talk.   Michael Hingson  36:34 And that's really it isn't it that when people talk about being afraid to stand up in front of an audience, they're not looking at it necessarily in the right way. And the reality is, most of us have things that we're passionate about. And when you are talking about your passions, you forget the rest. Exactly. I think there's an audience there, you don't care. There's an audience there. And you can continue to move forward. And there's, again, it helps you to be unstoppable. But we all are best with the things that we're passionate about. We can learn how to deal with other things. Have you have you ever, for example, gone to an event to speak or been involved anywhere in an event? And you're about to get up on the stage and you suddenly discover? I've been thinking about this completely wrong. And it's not what I thought it was,   Jimmy Newson  37:31 as far as the topic itself   Michael Hingson  37:33 as the topic or what you were reading what you need to talk about? And what you need to say,   Jimmy Newson  37:37 no, no, because I need to be sure in advance, I know what I'm talking about. Because that is that would be at the point my biggest fear is to go up. And and I would consider that legitimate. So I need to confirm that I know exactly. I know enough to converse, and when I don't. And usually when if I don't know enough about this, usually, because I'm the moderator. So I'll learn enough about it to ask intelligent questions, and then position myself as a learner of that through the experts that I'm talking to, to go I don't know enough about this. So I'm looking forward to this conversation as well.   Michael Hingson  38:17 I believe that a lot of speaking ought to be about telling stories. I think that I never want to talk to an audience. I want to relate to an audience and talk with an audience, which is also why I always love questions when we're done. But I one day, I actually got confronted with that very situation that I asked about. And I had thought going into the event that I knew exactly what I was supposed to talk about what was the speaker's bureau, who had me going to speak to an organization called the National Property Managers Association, and she says, Oh, it's all these people who rent and manage rentals of apartments and things like that. Well, I had some great stories about that. Because at the time, we owned a house that we were having a property manager manage because we had just moved to New Jersey. And I had stories to tell, but I got to the event late the night before I was supposed to speak. And I was the keynote speaker earlier and early in the morning. I got up and went down to breakfast and was sitting amongst these people and hearing them talk about things with the federal government and this and that and other stuff like that. And I finally said to one of them, what is the national Property Managers Association specifically to you? And they said, Oh, it's easy. We're the organization that manages anything physical relating to the federal government. Yeah, totally different. And I had 10 minutes to change. And I'm not bragging I'm saying that because I didn't dare let fear get in the way and I immediately thought about the fact that I had negotiated Small Business Administration contracts, I had put companies on to GSA schedules and so on, just shifted to a whole new set of stories I don't, and it worked out really well. But, again, we can easily let fear get in our way, rather than stepping back and going, Okay, how do we deal with this?   Jimmy Newson  40:23 Yeah, and for me, I usually will, you know, you know, and I have a strategy, a structure in place now, you know, because I always remember when I do something, for the first time, I have to tell myself, that by the fifth time, you won't be as scared and nervous as you are right now. That cost and that coffee down. Because I'm just like, Oh, my God, I'm going to do this on every day. And I'm like, remember, by the fifth time you do it, it's gonna be a walk in the park. And I go, Yeah, okay, fine. Let's go. You know, you gotta you gotta have these things in place. But even when I'm speaking, you know, I am definitely I want to find out as much about the company as possible, the organization, the target audience, who's in the audience, because as a marketer, these are things I need to know anyway. So being a marketer is great for me, because I use a lot of that, no matter what the situation is to do, to to dive deep into understanding every the, as much as I can about it. So I'm prepared as much as possible.   Michael Hingson  41:20 Well, in in our particular case, I hadn't realized that I should do something that I now do. And that is, the speaker's bureau said, Well, you don't need to speak with them, they don't have time, they just want you to come and do it. I will never do that I go to do any speaking engagement, without personally interacting with the people at the event. Now, as I said, I was very new to the process, when absolutely heard, but I won't, I won't go to an event unless I can speak with the people ahead of time. And oftentimes, I find out that the people who are arranging the event, for me, are totally clueless about what's going on because they don't know how to ask or don't ask. So it's so valuable, because I believe that I do the best job of speaking. When, like you, I understand what it is that I need to do, who it is that I'm doing it for and what the event is all about. Mm hmm. Yep,   Jimmy Newson  42:19 absolutely. Yeah. Then if it doesn't match up, I'll tell him I'm not the right. I'm not the right guy for you. Because it's just it becomes a waste of time, you know, in the last thing you want to do is waste anybody's time, whether it's the promoter, the event, organiser, organizer, or the or the attendees, okay, holding well for you.   Michael Hingson  42:39 And I've had that happen to me where not in speaking, but in sales opportunities, it became pretty obvious our product would work. But I use the opportunity to educate people about our product, and then say, here's why it won't work. But here's what will work. And here are the differences. And almost every time that I've done that, the companies have come back later. And they said, You really educated us very well. We have another project and we know your product or work, give us a price because we're not going to put it out to bid you convince us a long time ago, yet, which is part of the whole point.   Jimmy Newson  43:17 And there's that helpfulness your leading foot with with with help. And it just it goes such a long way. You know, this week alone in setting up a number of programs, I remember to literally two different promoters were like you are so easy to work with. I go because this is a team. We know we may not work for the same company. But we're still on the same team. And anything I can do to make your your job and your life easy. I will do and that will come back tenfold.   Michael Hingson  43:51 Yeah. And it's, it is so fun to be a teacher.   Jimmy Newson  43:58 Yeah, because it's natural. Now you just do it, but you're doing it in a non condescending way. And I think that's the other thing is one when you walk around with a chip on your shoulder, and I know everything and I'm the best. But it's another one you're being very aware of the other person, their their mannerisms, their feelings, and you're being authentic about helping them and understand that someone corrected me the other day, you know, and I was like, Oh, wow, glad you caught that. Thank you. I appreciate that. Let me keep that in mind. So you never too. You're never too old, you're never too experienced to still learn something yourself.   Michael Hingson  44:35 For me when that happens. What I like best though, is then being able to go back to the person who who corrected me and that happens and it's perfectly okay. But actually show them how I put what they said to practice because I recognize that whether they thought about it as much or not. They're being a teacher and I want them to be rewarded for good teaching. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, which is, which is so much fun. So for you in your life, what are some of the key moments that brought you to being unstoppable? Maybe some of you haven't talked about yet?   Jimmy Newson  45:13 Yeah, it's, I think, as I've grown, I'll be, I'll let everybody know, I'll be 53 years old this year. And so I've lived quite a bit. And I've experienced quite a lot. And I think over time, things have changed between my what I wanted what I thought was important in my 20s, what I thought was important in my 30s. And now let them forget about my 40s. Let's just go straight.   Michael Hingson  45:38 I'm 72. So there you go.   Jimmy Newson  45:41 Are you look good, you look good. You got it. Now, right now. And so I operate on themes, yearly themes now. And so I can even look back now into my 20s and 30s. And say, you know, and kind of theme up what I, what I what I wasn't, what I didn't realize I was doing, but what I was doing. Now I purposefully theme up. And this really helps me determine what what was valuable for me as I grow. And so I'll give you the last few years, 2020 2021 and 2022 2020, was all about USP unique selling proposition of me. So and that started because I got to, you know, a colleague of mine said, Hey, why don't you submit yourself to be a writer for entrepreneur, because that can be great for your career? And I was like, Yeah, that sounds good. And so I got the, the form, and I saw everything that they were requiring, I was like, Okay, I gotta, I gotta go back and clean my spleen up my image, you know? Yeah, you know, my act. And not that I had a bunch of it, I had appropriate stuff on Facebook, I just needed to, to make everything, put everything in an alignment, my LinkedIn profile needed to match what was on my website, which need to match what was on my Facebook. So I needed consistency. You know, and I, so I start to clean it up. And then I have my bio rewritten and I started looking at my relationships. So I, I literally did an audit of my professional life. And when I finished, I was like, Holy crap, this is actually pretty cool. And then I started to seized, I was impressed. I was like, Who's this dude? Like, oh, crap, that's me. Okay, let me introduce myself to me, so I can learn some more. So that was the first year. So what happened was I submitted after that, I submitted it to entrepreneur, and the process is they'll, they'll, they'll get the submission, then they'll call you, they'll, they'll vet you. And then if they like, what they what you what you're about, then you can become a writer, I didn't get any of that, I got accepted. That's how thorough the structure I put together, and I created a program out of it. So my soul and so that was a great stepping stone. Next year was about relationships and partnerships. So 2021, I started focusing on building better relationships and partnerships, on top of the document I created around myself as a leader. And then so that when when I started building, I was proactive about going after specific organizations that matched who I was, and what I was about. And then this year, is about impact and leadership. So now so as you can see, I'm starting to stack these on top of each other. And, and it just, it just gives you so when I send these, these documents out that are that are really purposeful, the response is always in my favor. So so that's something I'm going to always do, and I teach a lot, because it really helps you understand who am I? And why do people should people care? And, and, and and then I teach from a standpoint of now that you know who you are. How do you use that to help people? How do you use that to create Win Win relationships, and then you leave with that still not with you. Because at the end day, they still might not care about you. But if you're putting it in a way that it's a win win for them first, now you catch their attention.   Michael Hingson  49:16 And it's a long way to 2023 so it's probably a little bit early to say what do you think the plan is gonna be for next year? Yep.   Jimmy Newson  49:23 And that's an A Yeah, and I don't know it is far away, but it will present itself.   Michael Hingson  49:29 Do you do a lot and I think I know the answer to this, but do you do a lot of introspection, especially on a daily basis, maybe at the end of the day about what happened? And do you use that kind of a tool to help you learn as you go forward?   Jimmy Newson  49:44 Actually, not. I if I did, I probably be even more productive. I'm definitely not your typical I hate mornings. I know a lot of entrepreneurs are up at four or five in the morning. I mean, I hate mornings I can do it. I just don't like it. And so I will structure my day, I'll still plan out my week, I'll plan out certain things that have to happen throughout the week. And I'll use my weekly calendar versus a daily calendar for for for my structure. And I work sometimes till midnight, two o'clock in the morning, because I work I work better there. So I thought about switching over to and using some of these other strategies. But what I'm doing now is working. So I go, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Unless you decide you want to do it. And I'm now 53 years old I will be so I'm kind of okay with the way things are going.   Michael Hingson  50:42 And that's okay. I, I don't hate mornings, but I like time in the morning, even if it's just a few minutes to kind of reflect and at the end of the day, I like to reflect just for a few minutes to think about what happened today. And what did I learn or or something that didn't go right? What could I do to make it better? What could I have done to make it better? And I asked myself those questions, because that makes me at least think about it rather than just Well, it happened I can go on now.   Jimmy Newson  51:17 And I think it's for me, it's actually just part of the way I think down. Yeah, I reflect a lot. So it's, it's, you know, and I'm looking at my notes here and my structured, I'm pretty well structured, I have a amazing system, at least I think it is in every aspect of everything that I'm doing in my life personal and professional in, in Apple, Apple notes. And I can find anything and everything and in one to two search searches. So that helps me keep my focus, I don't have to remember everything, I can go back to something I can go back to a conversation I my conversations with you are documented. So I can remember if I don't talk to you for six months, I go there and I and I'm like, Okay, I know where we left off less, I can pick up there even if you don't, you know, so I so this really helps me maintain, you know, not have to remember everything. And it makes it easier for me to move around and, and bounce from project to project and not feel lost.   Michael Hingson  52:18 One of the things that I do, I use Outlook, a lot in all my dealings for a variety of reasons. But one of the things I do when I schedule meetings, is if there are correspondences and items relating to the meeting, I put all of it in the notes of the meeting request or in my copy of the meeting acceptance. So I have them right there, I do the same thing as you I think it's important to do that. I like to to be prepared. I also know that there are things I'll learn along the way. But I like to be prepared, and make sure that I'm ready to keep up with what they're doing and what we need to do. And it does best when I can immediately have access to all the documentation. Absolutely, absolutely. And I have a lot of fun with it. For how I've got to ask, did you get involved with accessibility? Because that's a whole, in a sense, it's a little bit different than what you're, what you're doing what you've been doing, and so on.   Jimmy Newson  53:24 Sure. Well, you know, being in the digital marketing world, you know, at some point, you're going to be dealing with individuals dealing with clients and corporations, websites, and I forget how I ended up on on the thing. But you know, for us in the United States, I think it's probably bigger outside, you can correct me if I'm wrong, like UK, whatnot, it's still a mystery about understanding that you need to make sure your website is accessible. And it's an actual law. You know, and when you know, so I recently started going alright, well who's responsible for that? Is it the web developer? Is it the is the person who owns the website, because it can be pretty expensive. Especially for those who have websites that were built before. This was a thing because now you know, I'm built I finished a website for a client recently, it was pretty much accessible ready, and but we still added the accessibility plugin on it to just pick up anything that was missing. But now for me, not only as a business owner, but as an organization owner who wants to help small businesses do better online. I saw this as when I so you know, when I ran across accessories platform, and I decided to try it out. You know, I look at these tech companies and I'm like, Well, what is their support around the small business community and I saw, you know, they have, you know, the ability to work with you and help you with your clients. And so I'm like, okay, so this is great because Now I can understand more about accessibility. And make sure that that the the, the clients have even more security when it comes to having their websites, their online presence protected, and also available to as many people as humanly possible, you know, so it became a, it was a no brainer. And then they were just such a great support. And Rafi who was a friend of mine, who's a friend of yours, as soon as we met, you know, his great support to go, you know, how can we help you help the small businesses also be prepared, because there's so many things you have to look look at when running a business, and you just don't have time to see everything. And accessibility is one of those things that you probably overlook? Well, we bring it to it, we bring it to the forefront,   Michael Hingson  55:50 AccessiBe or not, why should businesses make their websites accessible?   Jimmy Newson  55:57 Besides the law itself, which is funny, one of my clients that I consult for other things, not her website, called me up because she was being sued for her website not being accessible, at the same time, I hooked up with AccessiBe. So it was, so it was meant to be that the websites need to be accessible. And that's really just the bottom line, you're ignoring a specific, a very specific audience. So and you don't want to do that. And too, you can get into trouble. If you have to get caught out on it. You know, it's just like not running your business properly, not being a form, you know, running your business, but not being not not not being incorporated. There's no protection for you, you know, so it's just the right thing to do.   Michael Hingson  56:51 And that's really the answer. That is, I think, most appropriate, it is the right thing to do. For a lot of reasons, either we are an inclusive society, or we're not, I think there's a lot of arguments that we could make for many people who are not inclusive. But the fact of the matter is there are between 20 and 25% of all people in this country who have some sort of a disability, and many of them are excluded from using a lot of websites, because of the way they're programmed. Why is that? You know, it's it's education, it's perhaps just who cares. But the fact of the matter is that accessibility should be just as much a part of an a cost of doing business as having lights for sighted people to be able to function. I don't care about lights personally, you know, I don't, it's a waste of electricity to me, but my wife sure loves them. And, and, and I understand that, and I've learned over the last 39 plus years of marriage that it really makes sense to turn the lights on when it gets dark outside. And I don't even see that it gets dark. But I know when darkness comes. And so I turned the lights on if I'm closer to the light switches then she is because I like to help those who are disabled, they're like dependent, right? So it's perfectly reasonable to do but the fact is that accessibility should be for any business, just as much of a cost of doing business as having those lights for people, because they're both inclusive things, inclusive features that make the world a better place. Also, by developing that attitude. It potentially opens opportunities for people who have disabilities to be hired by those companies. Because if you're looking at it from the standpoint of what's the right thing to do, and why can't people do the same things we do? Well, we can we just don't do it the same way. Why shouldn't I have a better opportunity to get a job?   Jimmy Newson  59:00 Right? Absolutely.   Michael Hingson  59:03 And we we tend not to focus on that nearly as much as we should. But the fact is, there is another reason and you're right about the law, but I would prefer people not do it out of fear, but do it out of the fact that it's the right thing to do. There is another aspect of the whole issue with business. Nielsen Company, the rating company did a survey back in 2016. We've talked about it a little bit here on one of our episodes. The survey was about people with disabilities and dealing with websites and and going back to something you said near the beginning brand loyalty. And what the survey showed was that people with disabilities were extremely more brand loyal or more company loyal to those companies that were inclusive, and made their websites and their operations accessible. to them and others with disabilities, because for us, it is so hard to oftentimes go to a website and use it, it is so hard to do other things for my wife, she can't get into buildings where there are steps. And I realized that the law has some limitations. If you're in an old building and a stop and remodel, then there, there may not be an elevator. And the law doesn't require that you put one in until you remodel. But for newer buildings for let's take stores, then that have a brick and mortar facility where they have lots of stuff in the aisles. If they don't make the aisles wide enough for people in wheelchairs to be able to go up and down the aisles and turn and do the things that they need to do. One of two things is going to happen, they're going to be sued under the ADEA. And there is now legal precedent for you have to have the aisles wide enough for wheelchairs, or they'll just go away and not come back to your store. And they'll go find another one where you can and Nielsen found that people with disabilities are probably some of the most company and brand loyal people there are, because it's so hard to find places that really liked them and include them for whatever reason, but hopefully it's for the right reasons.   Jimmy Newson  1:01:15 Yeah. And I can understand that totally. I mean, you know, when, why, why go somewhere else, when you know, you get what you need to get, and you know how hard it can be to get it? So yes, absolutely.   Michael Hingson  1:01:27 What happened to your friend and her lawsuit?   Jimmy Newson  1:01:31 I think she ended up having to pay because of course it was too late. But then we were we kind of work with her a little bit. And and you know, even though you have the tool, there's still things that you should fix on your website. So we started fixing some of the errors. So they would they were they weren't errors even with or without the tool. So then it's kind of like a happy marriage between the two. The problem is with a lot of sites, I think she was doing over 100,000 hits a month, which he had a pretty popular website, you know, and a ton of pages, it can be expensive. So you know, you got to figure out what can I fix it. And I think that's also the problem that a tool like it says to be really helps when you got a website that's got 1000s of pages, 10s of 1000s of pages. And now you have to go in and try to make that whole website accessible, you're looking at a pretty hefty check that you got to write.   Michael Hingson  1:02:24 Well, accessiblity is also implementing some other tools under some new programs that people can learn about, they've been somewhat announced. But access flow, for example, which is a whole program that has tools so that people can will be able to once it's released, learn more about and deal with the accessibility issues that maybe the the widget doesn't do. And there'll be ways that they can learn about accessibility accessiBe is going to put some programs together to teach people. And again, this is whether they use accessiBe or not, is giving people the knowledge, it's teaching people to fish rather than just giving them a fish. Absolutely, absolutely. Which is, which is pretty exciting. Well, I think that we have talked your ear off and other people's ears off and so on for quite a while. But I really appreciate you being here. If people want to reach out to you and learn more about your programs and so on. How do they do that?   Jimmy Newson  1:03:23 They can email me, Jimmy at moving forward small business.com They can google my name Jimmy Newson within in people use him a lot. And they end up with some other dude or a number of dudes. But if you do Jimmy Newson, ne ws o n.com. You're gonna get I own like a top five pages of you know, so you'll find you'll find me. So that's, and I love LinkedIn. LinkedIn is my favorite communication channel. You know, it's, it's so you know, it's easy to find me I'm very accessible. Haha. And oh,   Michael Hingson  1:03:58 by the way, which is? Exactly. So   Jimmy Newson  1:04:00 it's, you know, you can find me and I look forward to chatting with with anyone that you know, especially around the topic of small business and small business growth and impact for small businesses.   Michael Hingson  1:04:14 Well, cool and perfect. I really appreciate you coming today. And I learned a great deal. And I would like to continue the discussion in the future. Let's do this again sometime.   Jimmy Newson  1:04:25 Absolutely. Absolutely. I'm there. You got me.   Michael Hingson  1:04:28 Perfect. Well, Jimmy, thanks very much. And I want to thank all of you for listening. Thanks for for dropping by. And please give us a five star rating when you have the opportunity to rate podcasts and this particular podcast. If you'd like to reach out to me you can do so by emailing Michaelhi M I C H A E L H I at AccessiBe A C C S S I B E.com. You can learn more about the podcast unstoppable Mindset by visiting www.michaelhingson.com/podcasts and of course, you can learn about me as a potential speaker for any programs that you have. We invite you to reach out if you need a speaker. And of course, we invite you to reach out if you'd like to talk about this podcast or if you or you know of anyone else who might be an interesting guests that we should talk with. Thank you all very much. Thank you for being here today. And we will see you again soon.   Michael Hingson  1:05:28 You have been listening to the Unstoppable

It is not often that most of us have the opportunity and honor to meet a real trendsetter and pioneer. Today, you get to meet such an individual.   Mike Paciello has been a fixture in the assistive technology world for some thirty years. I have heard of him for most of that time, but our paths never crossed until this past September when we worked together to help create some meetings and sessions around the topic of website accessibility. As you will hear, Mike began his career as a technical writer for Digital Equipment Corporation, an early leader in the computer manufacturing industry. I won't tell you Mike's story here. What I will say is that although Mike is fully sighted and thus does not use any of the technology vision impaired persons use, he really gets it. He fully understands what Inclusion is all about and he has worked and continues to work to promote inclusion and access for all throughout the world.   After you hear our podcast with Mike, I'd love to hear your thoughts. Please feel free to email me at michaelhi@accessibe.com to tell me of your observations. Some directories do not show full show notes. For the complete transcription please visit https://michaelhingson.com/podcast About our Guest: Mike Paciello has been a pioneer and influential figure in the accessibility industry for more than three decades. He wrote the first book on web accessibility and usability (Web Accessibility for People with Disabilities), and has since achieved many notable milestones. He is the founder of WebABLE.Com and co-founder of WebABLE.TV. Mike currently serves as AbleDocs VP of US Operations. Mike served as co-chair of the United States Federal Access Board's Telecommunications and Electronic and Information Technology Advisory Committee (TEITAC), co-founder of the International Committee for Accessible Document Design (ICADD), and was recognized by President Bill Clinton for his contribution to the W3C Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI). He was the recipient of the 2016 Knowbility Lifetime Achievement and the 2020 ICT Accessibility Testing Symposium Social Impact awards. Contact Mike at mpaciello@webable.com or mpaciello@abledocs.com About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app.   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.     Transcription Notes Michael Hingson  00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i  capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Welcome to another edition of unstoppable mindset. Thanks for joining us this week, we have a guest I've been looking forward to for quite a while his name is Mike Paciello. And I'm not going to tell you a whole lot about him because he gets to do that himself, except I will tell you that he's very deeply involved in the web accessibility world. Why do we deal with web accessibility a lot on this podcast? And why do I continue to bring it up. Because if you've listened to many of these podcasts, you know that there is an ever widening gap between websites that are accessible and those that are not. And it is something that we all need to deal with. Because there are so many people in this world who don't get to access all the websites that everyone else can access for one reason or another. Mike has been very deeply involved in dealing with those issues for a lot of years. And I'd like to introduce you to him now. And we can talk more about it. Mike, welcome to unstoppable mindset.   Mike Paciello  02:23 Thanks, Mike. Great to be here.   Michael Hingson  02:27 So how did you even get involved in this? I mean, you you are cited you, you, as far as I know, don't have any what people would call physical disabilities and all that. So how did you get involved in all this?   Mike Paciello  02:41 Well, it's a it's a long and winding story that probably folks have heard many times in the past, but I was worked at a a computer company that no longer exists anymore. It maybe exists in parcels at HP. But it was Digital Equipment Corporation back in the 80s. I actually   Michael Hingson  03:03 just this morning was reading something from someone on a list where they were talking about the old desktop synthesizer.   Mike Paciello  03:10 Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I know that memories. Yeah, I know the guys that worked on that. And Tony Vitaly was one of the lead engineers on that. And Tony, now we're good friends. He passed away several years ago from ALS. Ironically enough, it he discovered it while he was at the seaside conference. Boy, I think so. So this was in the late 90s, maybe in early 2000s. But at any rate, I was working as a technical writer at Digital in the mid mid 80s, right through the early 90s. And was asked to take on a project voluntarily, which involved providing our computer software documentation we did mostly operating system software, to the National Braille Press in Boston. And I just thought it was interesting. And so I followed up and they said, and maybe you'll get a request once or twice a year. I hadn't had the project for more than a few hours. And I got a cost a call right away from Bill reader who was the writer? Yep. You know, Bill, yes. And he said, Hey, we need this, this this this? Can you bring these down? And I said, Sure, I'd have been happy to. And so I hadn't carried the physical publications, which as I found out, they would then take and transcribe into and reproduce in Braille. And Bill was awesome. He gave me a complete tour of, you know, the factories and the offices and what they did. And right away he started talking about, you know, screen reader. Well, actually, it was a screen reader technology that was braille translation software at that particular time. It's so that that piqued my interest, and i i At the same time I was doing that I also happen to be working in the very first instances of markup language. This is pre SGML, which, as anyone that knows the standardized, standardized or Standard Generalized Markup Language was the precursor to HTML, which is makes up the web. But it was actually a, a markup language used to basically mirror what an editor, a physical editor of a red publication would do, you know, take a ticket document from an individual divided up into, you know, logical portions on on, you know, within a page. So this is a paragraph, this is a list, this needs to be indented. This is a title, this is a heading, those type of things. And Dale SGML could do that electronically. And at the time, I specifically was working on a project that involves converting our electronic documents or digital into postscript, which anyone knows a postscript is that free PDF? Yes. So I thought to myself, if we can do these electronic conversions from basically a text markup file, to a postscript file, which is, you know, kind of a graphical a page, right? Right. Why not output it to Braille? And that led me on my quest to go figure out how to do that.   Michael Hingson  06:36 So what did you What did you end up doing?   Mike Paciello  06:39 Well, I curse I had established a few contacts, because of this arrangement that digital had with the National Braille Press. And one of those contexts was George cursher. Anyone that knows anything about this business knows that George is a champion and a hero, and just one of the greatest human beings I've ever known. And Matt, and it's great to be to be called a friend and a colleague of his,   Michael Hingson  07:08 and George was the person who kind of really was the proponent of the DAISY format, which is used today not only in audio recordings to make them fully accessible and navigable, but he did it for Braille as well.   Mike Paciello  07:22 That's right. That's exactly right. And I'll tell you, a lot of people remember George for when he worked for what you would call it out there in New Jersey and Princeton for the blind index,   Michael Hingson  07:36 RFP coding, right. Now Learning Ally, right,   Mike Paciello  07:40 right, right, exactly. However, before he joined RFB, nd he had his own little company called computerized books for the blind, write it so I established a contact with him, he and I started talking about markup languages. He pulled it a couple of other people like Joe Sullivan, from Duxbury Systems. And Yuri Minsky, who was the President CEO of soft spot, which was a major producer of SGML editing software. And we formed together with many other colleagues, also international colleagues, what was a working group called the International Committee for accessible document design. We did that in the late early 90s, early 90s.   Michael Hingson  08:30 So you, you put some processes together? And how successful were you at being able to get postscript translated into Braille?   Mike Paciello  08:43 Well, no, no, as far as I know, there was no success there. Yes, story. The story with postscript is, you know, Adobe, eventually converted everything into a PDF. And that's where the success so to speak, relatively speaking, came in play. Adobe actually had members that were part of our, the internet international committee for accessible document design. And they got involved effect their lead engineer at that time was Carl Orthey. And Carl met with George myself in another great colleague, who worked with me at that time at Digital TV Raman. And we looked at ways of, again, taking the PDF and converting into something that was accessible. So that's that's so there's no real story as far as I know around postscript. It's all about PDF at that level.   Michael Hingson  09:42 It's, it's interesting. You had a lot of good beginnings and laid a lot of foundations. But But today, it seems like a lot of the accessibility that we're seeing is still somewhat sporadic and spotty. In that not everything gets to be put into or can easily be put into an accessible form. Even with Adobe, there is a lot of document, there are a lot of documents that are released and created by various people that aren't accessible. Why is it that Adobe and other organizations don't really follow through and try to create native accessibility? Right from the outset?   Mike Paciello  10:28 Yeah, well, you know what that is, it's it comes down very simply to it's a business decision. You know, corporations. for all intents and purposes, they've got a mindset, they're all about reporting back to their boards of directors, and reported profits. I mean, it's just a business's business, especially here in you know, in this in this country, where we're driven, you know, by a by, you know, why the markets in so businesses, businesses look at it, and I've yet to see this not be true. Even for those companies that I believe Excel, where accessibility is concerned, a businesses have never been able to figure out really how to turn accessibility as you and I know it into a business value proposition, they haven't figured out how to make it, how to make money out of it, there are all kinds of numbers that are thrown out there about discretionary income by people with disabilities. But it doesn't come down to that. It's it's channels, it's business lines, it's, it's we're talking about, you know, companies don't want to talk about making business unless we're talking about billions of dollars now. And then, you know, it won't take much longer looking at the recent, the recent profit reports, you know, by by Apple and Amazon, that we're going to be talking about trillions of dollars. So if we can generate that kind of thing, then then, you know, a business business really does want to want to investigate. And secondarily, designing architecting, developing all of the engineering lifecycle or product lifecycle disciplines that are associated with ensuring that whatever it is that we're building, and I'll just use just a software environment, because that's, that's what I'm most familiar with, whatever software platform or interface that we're designing or developing, you know, it has to be accessible, they're not doing enough, you know, out of the box, it's not being done in the concept, you know, conceptual design and architectural, and then fall all the way through. If you know, what I'm doing right now, as I'm illustrate, I'm using, you know, kind of a gesture to show, you know, for the beginning, all the way to the end of the lifecycle, there, every piece of that needs to be accounted for, where ensuring something is usable, and accessible to a variety of people, disabilities, and the persona types associated with it. And companies just typically don't make that kind of investment. Unless someone at the top is driving it. And, you know, you can look at, you know, I think Microsoft is a is a good company right now to kind of hold up there, because I believe that they've done a great job at raising the bar. Because all of its being driven by Jenny in by, you know, by their CEO, you know, he himself has, I think, at least one son with with a disability. So he's got a personal connection to it, but you don't see that at 90% of most businesses. So again, like I said, it's a, it's a value cost analysis, that, you know, from an accessibility standpoint, it's probably never going to really, truly wash. Now that even   Michael Hingson  14:04 go ahead. Oh, go ahead. No, I was just gonna   Mike Paciello  14:07 say, that doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. And that doesn't mean that we shouldn't tackle this pervasive, really, you know, like global challenge, using other means by which to, you know, kind of change the world and change thinking. And I really think that that's probably another big piece of it.   Michael Hingson  14:28 We see them with Microsoft, but even with Microsoft, now with new windows 11. There are a lot of things that are technically accessible, but they're not obvious and they're not obviously located so that one can see them, you know, as an example. It used to be in his latest Windows 10. If you wanted to go to what we're now calling even with Windows and app that's installed on your machine, you hit the start button. And then you could use the arrow keys to go down and find the AP. But that's not the case in Windows 11 anymore. And there are additional keystrokes or other things that you need to do. They have not kept the same obvious process. And yes, it's accessible because you can find it. But is that really is usable, and was a lot of thought given to that when they were creating windows 11. And it seems to me that Jenny has has done a lot and we're speaking by the way for those who don't know, of Jenny Lefevere, who is the Chief Accessibility Officer for Microsoft, and Jenny is deaf, we met at a convention a few years ago. And obviously, you, you work with her pretty well. But I just think that there are things that they aren't, they're still not giving a lot of thought or as much thought as they should, to some of the architecture and ways to make Windows is obviously usable as it should be.   Mike Paciello  15:59 You know, I mean, Mike, I can't, I can't deny that I totally agree. I think, you know, what we see out on the web in terms of social networking, social Mark marketing, we see what Microsoft wants us to hear, right, but we're not inside. In I am not at all surprised, because I frankly, I hear this about a lot of the other, you know, big companies, who was it was at Forbes was at Forbes, or was a fast company that just came out with this glowing article. It in mentioned, it was it was really kind of interesting. It mentioned Microsoft, Amazon, Google. Facebook, who else was in there apple in all these great, wonderful things that they do in I mean, you can't deny the fact that they've made some awesome, you know, steps forward and done some great things in behalf of the entire disabilities marketplace. Right. But force, but at the same time, you and I both know, I see every single day, if not hundreds, you know, dozens, you know, if not dozens, hundreds. So whichever way you want to look at it, I have people who are seeing exactly what you're saying. Yeah, great, but now I can't use Windows, I've seen that. I've seen that whole discussion on Windows 11. So what happened? Who's Who's not watching the the watching the ball there? How can you not at this point in the game, when you're in industry, as mature as Microsoft is? Including the accessibility space? How could you miss these things? You can't. So someone's making decisions that should either is, is not well educated, well versed and accessibility, or be and I think this tends to be more likely scenario. They're doing it because they're being driven by whatever financial incentives that they have. Right?   Michael Hingson  18:04 Right. But But here's, here's another aspect of that. I agree that in especially in this country, we tend to be very driven by the financial aspects of it. What Uh, what about our stockholders, we've got to report directly to them. And they're the only ones who matter, which I'm not convinced is true. But that's what what companies do. But when do we get to see companies believe? It says much about the cost of doing business to include people with disabilities, and we'll deal with blindness here. But in general, to include people with disabilities as it is others look at Adobe, if you install Adobe Acrobat, or if you look at a lot of the things that that you can do with Acrobat, and Acrobat, DC today, we have Acrobat, DC, licensed as I do here, you get options for different kinds of languages, you get a variety of different kinds of settings. And obviously, those were put in because people somewhere thought it was important to have more than English, then of course, part of that is you want Acrobat to be able to be marketed all over the world. But even in this country, you want Acrobat to be able to produce documents and English and Spanish and Chinese and Japanese and other languages as well. But so there's a mindset there, that that's important. But I think part of the issue with corporate decisions is there isn't a mindset yet about dealing with disabilities, even though more than 20% of all people in this country and around the world have some sort of disability there isn't a mindset of inclusion for those people yet.   Mike Paciello  19:56 Yeah, I totally agree. Um, you know, we all I often talk about culture, we often talk about acumen, we I used to have a domain that was called thinkaccessibility.com. And it's true with the mindset is, they're just not doing it. But I also feel like in I kind of apologize, because I haven't been able to come up with the right answer yet. But I used to talk in terms of what, you know, what, how do we change the world? I mean, that's, that's what we're trying to talk about, right? We're talking about changing the world change the world's mindset, as it relates to people with disabilities, in, in accessibility. In terms of any kind of interaction or, or or inclusive design doesn't matter whether it's hardware, or software, wood, or paper, or electronic. The same thing is true all the way across the board, I still see buildings that are built, and they don't meet the ADA standards. Right. Right. So So what is it? I used to talk about, you know, back in the, in the 90s, particularly, we went through this phase, where alternative energy became, you know, a big thing. In many governments, many, many governments put billions of dollars into alternative energies for a lot of reasons, right? They want to stop fossil fuel pollution and things along those lines, right? The the atmosphere, but there were a lot of reasons for doing it. But the the government's and the people, the scientists behind it, saw, had had the foresight, they saw a vision of what the world would be like, in 5060, you know, 100 years or decades ahead, in from the term from the standpoint of preservation, for from the standpoint of, you know, global warming, pollution, things along those lines, it became intrinsic to life, for every human. We haven't achieved that in the disability accessibility. A world in our world, we have not created a mindset that says, We need to change the world, because if we don't, this is what's going to happen in the years to come. Right? That makes sense. It does.   Michael Hingson  22:31 And, you know, part of the problem is the term disability is still, we're great at redefining words, right? I mean, we've re defined, we've redefined diversity all over the place. And now diversity generally tends not to include disabilities. And will but we haven't been able to define disability yet to not mean you're not able. And so it is a problem. And I'm just not sure how we're going to get around that. But somewhere, we need to do that, to get the mindset to shift so that people can truly understand and accept that just because a person has a different ability set than they and it doesn't include some of the things that that their ability set includes. That does go the other way as well. And it isn't all of a physical nature necessarily.   Mike Paciello  23:24 I totally agree. I tell you every I mean, what's also factually true is, you know, the profession, the business and the community that you and I are part of, is it is in and of itself kind of a civil rights notion, right? It is. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, in the US, it's absolutely that, well, actually, most countries, it's absolute. That's why you have, you know, Ada, like legislator, legislation and laws throughout, you know, throughout the world. But here's the interesting thing about that. Every great civil rights movement, every great movement, has always had a great leader and a vocal leader and a visible leader. And I've always thought that that's one of the things that we miss, we don't really have, we have some great leaders, we've got some great people out there. Jenny being one of them, for example. You know, when I, when I grew up, Ellen Brightman was like, it was like my hero key and Gary Moulton. Were just, you know, awesome. Good. George cursher, you know, to this day is, but we don't have, you know, a Martin Luther King, like individual, you know, a Mahatma Gandhi, like individual who, who doesn't just bring the cause, but brings the recognition in, in in creates change as a result of that in in so I still kind of think that that's something that we we probably need in this industry to to to change the world the way that we want to change it.   Michael Hingson  24:56 Yeah. And and the problem is that to bring the recognition that take a Martin Luther King, the the thing is, there were some differences about him. But there were enough similarities between him and everyone else that people could rally around him. And I'm not sure that when you're viewing people as physically disabled or developmentally disabled, when you bring that disability in, there's, there's a part of it, that I'm not sure that anyone yet has figured out a way to get around the closest person who I ever encountered. And I never met him personally, but person who I think could have achieved that, although not in the exact same strident way that Dr. King did would be Jacobus timber, the founder of the National Federation of the Blind. He was he was the deep philosopher, and extremely vocal about it and very innovative, but he was blind. And I think that that's that problem is what we face in terms of dealing with disabilities.   Mike Paciello  26:11 Yeah, yeah, I totally agree. Yeah, so I mean, I think that's just one, one piece of the, you know, of the puzzle, so to speak, to try to solve this worldwide mindset that that needs to be changed.   Michael Hingson  26:31 Yeah, and I'm not sure how we're going to get around it. Because I think we also tend to not be violent, and we shouldn't be violent about what we do. But we do need to somehow cross this barrier. And maybe the way we need to do it is to be more forceful, collectively, and get people to to notice, but there are things that that companies could do take apple. So Apple, finally came to the realization and it took in part of the threat of a lawsuit to make it happen. But Apple finally took the iPhone and made it accessible. The iPod. And they even went so far as to make iTunes you available, although I don't hear as much about iTunes you today. But still, it was the method by which a number of people could get class lectures, and so on. And they made all of that accessible. The problem that I see with what Apple did is that they didn't take that last step. That is to say, there is still nothing in the App Store today that mandates any level of accessibility for the apps that they allow to go through the store. And they could make an incredible change in mindset and shift in mindset. If they would just say, your app has to have some level of accessibility. And that's going to be different for different kinds of apps. But at least I ought to be able to control apps that go through the store. And I recognize that a lot of apps are going to be graphical in nature, but they still ought to give me the ability to control the apps and manipulate the apps and my example that I use are star charts, you know, I'm not going to see star charts. But for me to take the time to describe it to someone and describe what I want to get them to manipulate it rather than me being able to manipulate it and then saying to someone, what do you see, I still don't even get that. And apps go in and out of accessibility in the app store all the time. Apple could, with a fairly simple process, make accessibility as mandatory in the store, as it does other things. It would seem to me.   Mike Paciello  28:54 Yeah, well, what companies do about their own products is definitely one thing. But again, I still think it comes down to dollars and cents. No, they're not gonna push any harder than they have to, because they just don't have the C level people who should be, you know, putting this on their agenda and in prioritizing accessibility the way it ought to be, as we as we see it.   Michael Hingson  29:21 Right. Right. But what's but what's the message there? The message, it seems to me is still we're still not really important enough for us to do that.   Mike Paciello  29:31 Oh, that's right. You're not a viable entity? Yeah, absolutely. There's no doubt about that. They'll never say it. But in fact, that's really what's going on in the boardroom. Now. One One thing that we tried to do have been unsuccessful up till now. But when Jim Tobias and I shared the the last five weeks, one of the things that we had already laid groundwork for doing was implementing the Five weight requirements, which include all the the web accessibility requirements into the Americans Disabilities Act, because the Department of Justice was a participant there, they're following what we're doing. And we made some good head rows, headway into it. But it came to an abrupt abrupt stop. As a result of politics, frankly speaking. We, my my last meeting, ironically enough, at the White House, was the day before the 2001 or 2016 election. Yeah, yeah. 2016 election. And I listened to President Obama's chief technology officer, and his chief science officer, both talked about the players that they were laying out for the next four to eight years. In all those things got trashed right after that election. So again, not not not really, in no way am I see he could have a political position here, because I don't I stay out of politics, but I'm just sitting, having been the chair, a co chair, rather, of a committee, whose charter was to enhance the lives of individuals with disabilities by enhancing technology for accessibility. We lost, we lost, we lost quite a bit at that level. Now. You know, will it ever get into ADA? I don't know. I really don't know. It's it's more or less than table, that the Department of Justice position at this point is well, you know, things are fair, you know, are out there for everybody to follow. They don't need enforcement. But the reality is, lawsuits are gonna keep coming until until until enforcement is mandated. And then then corporations will do one or two things, they'll either comply, because they'll have to obey. Or they'll do what they typically do, which they send lobbyists groups in and fight it.   Michael Hingson  32:06 Yeah, well, and you bring up a really interesting thing regarding lawsuits, because lawsuits can can be a powerful and valuable way to help the process if the litigation is brought for the right reason, namely, we really want to help fix the problem. But we're also seeing a lot of lawsuits. And it's been going on well, certainly before the ADEA. But we'll use the ADEA. And, and and our situations and experiences as the example, lawsuits today are often filed by lawyers who just want to make a bunch of money. They're very frivolous lawsuits. I saw one last week, where a lawyer decided to sue a company actually a bunch of different companies, because they said their websites were inaccessible. And they use the same boilerplate on on all of the lawsuits. And in reality, from the time the plaintiff, quote, looked at the website that I am aware of, until the time the lawsuit was filed was about a month. And in that time, unbeknownst to the defendant, or to the plaintiff, the company took action to make the website accessible because it was the right thing to do. So that by the time the lawsuit was filed, in reality, the claims were totally baseless because the website had become accessible and usable, demonstrably speaking, but yet the lawsuit was still fired filed, and there are so many of those frivolous lawsuits. It seems to me that one of the things that we ought to figure out ways to do is to get Bar Association's and others to go after these lawyers who are doing these frivolous lawsuits, because they're not doing anyone any good.   Mike Paciello  34:07 Yeah, yeah, there's no doubt about there are a lot of evil, it's chases out there. They've been out there for as long as I've been, you know, in the software and web accessibility, because it's, I mean, I don't know if we'll ever be able to change that unless, unless we do what would there is there has been some inroads made in terms of how much a person can sue for and, and in some of the motivations for but yeah, yeah, I mean, it's sad, in unfortunately, they they bring in individuals with disabilities, you know, to be part of the of the suit itself. And that creates angst in the communities as well. Right. So I mean, it's, yeah, it's, it's funny, I gave a talk at the UN years ago on fear based incentives, and I hate them. I mean, it's such a stands for any kind of fear based incentives. But the fact of the matter is that we see it does. It does effect change, right. So you've seen large corporations in organizations in educational institutions who have made the changes because they were forced to as a result of those lawsuits. I don't like it. I don't think anybody likes to be quarter, you know, put into a corner and then have to fight out. It just gives accessibility and disabilities a bad name overall. But it is effective. Set   Michael Hingson  35:36 offer, marketing, fear based marketing is all around us. I mean, turn on a television, and you hear commercials, like your check engine light is going to turn red at some point. And then it's going to be too late. You have to get our car warranty. Now I'm in fear marketing is all around us.   Mike Paciello  35:56 Yeah, that's true. And I work separately. It is ironic, because it is kind of ironic that you're talking about that, because we are kind of talking about messaging, and marketing. It's one of the reasons why would I built web able, one of the things that I really wanted to focus on was trust based marketing, that anyone that I did business with, has to has to be truthful in everything that they say and everything that they do. And so I've worked really hard at that focus, I'm actually updating our pages right now to add another set of value statements associated with trust, and in truthful marketing, because I believe it's ironic my drive here is to make sure that people with disabilities and consumers with disabilities, you know, what they're being told, or what they're being sold, is, you know, an accurate reflection of what your product can or cannot do. So or what a service company or a service based company says they can and will do, because I believe, frankly, speaking, very analogous to the lawyer, you know, the English face lawyer scenario, is I believe that there that that individuals with disabilities, not unlike the elderly community are often take advantage, taking advantage of, because they don't know everything that's going on it, you know, their disability puts me into a situation where they, they, they often are not aware of what the true motivations of a corporation or organization really are.   Michael Hingson  37:38 Right. And it's, it says an important for those of us in the disability community to understand corporate dynamics, and do as much as we can to become a part of the corporate world, because change does have to come from within, and it won't come unless we help bring it about and unless we work as hard as we possibly can to get other allies on the inside. But I still think ultimately, it's it's going to require that mindset shift. And I'm, I'm not convinced that it needs to be a costly thing to bring about accessibility, especially if you create a native way to make it happen right from the outset. Then you're building it into the cost of doing business, which is what Apple did, of course, with the iPhone, and the iPod and the technologies that are in the   Mike Paciello  38:37 Mac voiceover voiceover right. And then voiceover,   Michael Hingson  38:41 it's a cost of doing business. And I'm not even sure I totally like that. But it's, it's okay. It's a cost of doing business to make sure everyone can use the product. And I think that's a reasonable thing to do. But that's why I think that they, they need to take that last step. And get to the point of recognizing that part of that same cost of doing business has to be to say, to developers, you've got to have some sort of basic amount of accessibility, just like we do with the with the iPhone and the iPad and the Mac itself, because you're leaving people out. The The problem is that Apple put itself in that position by being a policing agency for what goes into apps and how apps work. I understand. I don't even I haven't looked lately, but I understand that if you create a piece of software that looks like it has a Windows desktop, that was true of Windows 10. Anyway, Apple wouldn't release it in the app store because it didn't look abolition often look to Windows II and of course their competitors. They have the ability to make and they do make decisions based on what they choose.   Mike Paciello  40:02 Yeah, yeah, there's no no no doubt about that, again, businesses are in the business of doing business. Right. And, and, and that's why we have things, you know, like trademarks and copyright and, and patent infringement and patents, and, you know, all of that it's all proprietary, proprietary systems closed open. This that's, that is the world that we that we live in today is as as we started, as you said, from the beginning, the sad part of all of this is that in that the decision makers, the architects, the designers, are not really truly thinking about accessibility and building an infinite start.   Michael Hingson  40:44 And it would make it just and it's not that hard to do. If they would do it. Tell me about the web accessibility initiative a little bit.   Mike Paciello  40:53 Gosh, sure. Well, I'll tell you, as much as I know, I mean, I haven't. I've been on the fringes of it more or less for the last 15 years or so. But I'll tell you the, the interesting story about the about the way is that I and I was working as a volunteer, I was working at digital and working as a volunteer to kind of with MIT, in the WCC to just kind of build some content, leads, you know, email lists, you know, some some resource information, and just keep it there for accessibility. Organizations like trace ad, which then under Greg Vanderheiden, was at the University of Wisconsin, now down at University of Maryland, Baltimore, I think that's where they're at. And in WGBH, here in Boston, under Larry Goldberg's directorship in cast, they also were organizations that were kind of pulling together these resources around around the web. And so while I was there, I came in contact with a few key people like Daniel da, and of course, Tim Berners. Lee, I was working closely with with Uri Rybicki before he passed the 96. In others, Dave Raggett, just a few other people that were there, in ultimately, you know, we started talking about, you know, can we do something with this. But at the same time, conversations were being carried on with with the National Science Foundation is Department of Education, and a couple of European consortiums, including tide. And what happened was, Tim, as I understand it was approached by either Vice President Gore, or President Clinton at at that particular time said, hey, look, would with the W three C, would you guys be interested in kind of building a project around people disabilities that access to the web? And Tim came back to myself DlG Villar a dragon and said, Hey, do you guys think that we could do this, but would this be something that we could do and ultimately, that led to us putting together a plan and a proposal for an initiative at the time was called the web accessibility project or whap. And I never liked it. Never like, you know, from a marketing standpoint, you know, a branding simple, I just knew it wasn't gonna work. So when we decided that we were going to launch it in 1997, Danielle, and Danielle and I went back and forth, okay, what can we name this whole thing? And I came up with way Wi Fi. That was marketable, it was easy to say and easy to brand. And Daniel liked it. And and we were back in 1997. Now at the I think it What was it? Like everybody, I think it was the sixth, sixth or seventh. Why would conference, I think the seventh I want to say seven, but even six. And I've got my stuff right over here on my other shelf. I can't see it right now. But we launched it there. It's at Stanford and see in Santa Clara. And that's that led to, to the launch of the initiative. We got funding, US government funding matching funds from MIT in matching funds from the tide initiative for three years. So we built a three year business plan for it. Ultimately, I at that time, actually, I changed jobs and Dale Yuri had passed away 96 It's now 1997. And I was the executive director of the European ski and sky foundation. So under that notion, I went out and helped help lead and build the the Web Accessibility Initiative Program Office. And ultimately that led to us hiring Judy Brewer. Who was in Massachusetts, it had been very well known for her activity with. With her boy, I can't remember the name of the organization was I want to say the mass mass association for disabilities. But she had led the effort to requiring Microsoft to ship Windows, Windows 95, with certain accessibility features into it. And so she was a great hire, you know, to leave the office, I went back off and eventually left the OSI Foundation, and started up my own company TPG.   Michael Hingson  45:43 And now you've since fairly recently sold TPG, right?   Mike Paciello  45:49 Today, it's already been for almost five years.   Michael Hingson  45:54 What did TPG do? What what did you form the company to do?   Mike Paciello  45:59 Yes, so I, what I really wanted to do was forming a professional services organization, company that helped make web web applications and software, regardless of the platform, usable and accessible to people disabilities. So I built an initial team, we went through several iterations of the team, before I could pull the right group of people together. But ultimately, that's, that's, that's what we did. And that's how I sold it became one of the most, if not the most well known brand, in software, professional services around web and software accessibility in the world. And that led to the company at the time, was VFO. Now now known as Despero, and they acquired they acquired TPG is specifically for that we had the largest bring not the largest company, but the largest brand most well done. It was because we were built on a foundation of trust. Every client that we had, came to us by referrals, we never did outbound sales ever. And, and we had lots of lots of repeat business enough to keep you know, ultimately, I think when I saw that we had about 40 or so people on staff in some of the world's best, best of the world in this business. Now my drop it in their knees, because they're all there are there. So they've gone off and formed their own companies. You know, I find I find that a little bit of a legacy. They you know, a car girls would often in antennen, and now he's with level access. Leone, Watson went out and started petrological. And she's got, you know, seven or eight members of her key team are all former TPG employees. Sara Horton is going off. She's doing her thing. So and I've gone off and done my so there's, there's been a lot of it's kind of interesting, a lot of breakout companies from from TPG.   Michael Hingson  47:52 And now you're doing web ABL.   Mike Paciello  47:56 And now I'm doing web ABL. Yeah, I've kind of labeled right. Web evil and evil docs.   Michael Hingson  48:02 And you're married. So you have three jobs. What's that? And you're married? So you have three jobs?   Mike Paciello  48:08 I probably have five because yeah, there's that parent tells me I have like five jobs now. So yeah, we're able to able to access web people. It really started out at TPG. It was my idea to kind of build a marketing, but I wanted to honestly, I built a news aggregator which the front of it is front end of it is a news aggregator. But ultimately, I wanted to be a digital marketing social networking marketing company strictly within the context of of, of accessibility and disability. And that's, that's where it's at.   Michael Hingson  48:47 And what Able Docs?   Mike Paciello  48:49 Able Docs is a right now, it is primarily known for documentation accessibility across the board. So it's not just PDFs its word, its Excel, PowerPoint. We're dealing with Google Docs. But it is a company that is involved in digital accessibility. We've recently branched out and started building on our, our own web accessibility services. So we did an acquisition of web key it out in Perth, Australia, so that we brought them in. And we're buying some tools and we're building some business long there. So so I've been helping Adam Spencer's, the CEO there at Apple docs. Adam has a long history in documentation accessibility, and they're one of the world leaders in that. So I'm here to help them build their USN branch.   Michael Hingson  49:43 Pretty exciting, isn't it?   Mike Paciello  49:44 Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's startup all over again. So it's kind of fun from that standpoint, but a lot of hard work   Michael Hingson  49:52 well, and doing it in the COVID era. Well, you get to do it at home. So there's, there's there's lots of time do it. So at least you just don't have to travel as much right now.   Mike Paciello  50:03 Honestly, that's the thing I missed the most. I love travel. Yeah, I do too. I love traveling. I love speaking, I will go no everywhere and anywhere to do that, you know, to kind of carry the mission. So I missed that the most.   Michael Hingson  50:17 I I've never really minded being on airplanes, although I understand the whole issue with COVID right now, but I've never really had a problem with it. I enjoy traveling. I haven't been to a place yet that I couldn't find some things to like about it. And I've enjoyed everywhere I've gotten to go and all the people I've gotten to speak to and speak with and educate. Yeah, I miss it as well.   Mike Paciello  50:42 Yeah. Well, you and I saw each other down in Washington, DC. We do in Baltimore. So the NFB and, and then m&a Bling. But I right after that COVID started to break out again with the Omicron variant. So I stopped all travel. So right now and I've done probably five or six other events since then. Right now, if all things work out, I'll be at CSUN.   Michael Hingson  51:09 Tell me about that. You're going to be the keynote speaker this year?   Mike Paciello  51:13 Yeah, I was kind of surprised. I got a call from from from CSUN. And they asked me there their executive director asked me if I would see any uploading, asked me if I would consider I was really shocked. To be honest with you. I haven't been at CSUN. In you know, in four years right now. Yeah, in four years. Because my first wife passed away. And I was like, at home for I retired after I sold TPG. I retired for, you know, for the better part of four and a half years. And you know, was caretaking for Kim. And I really couldn't travel. So I did go to C center. I've been to CSUN since 2018. Yeah, so be four years now. So when they call when I can't think it now just lost her name. Oh, see any? Sorry. I went didn't see anyone see any called me. I was really surprised. But she asked me if I would consider giving the keynote and, you know, see son to me. See, says where I got my start in terms of networking and meeting people and getting involved in the community, not just on the national level, but on the international level. And that I think really spearheaded an awful lot for me in just about every other company that that's out there. So it holds a very dear in your place to me, Harry Murphy's the director, the founder of CSUN. He and I are close friends, even to this day. He retired over 10 years ago. And I served on I served on two advisory committees to to see some over the years. So when Sandy? Yeah. Well, she asked me, I said, Yeah, I'd be happy to. So I've got so   Michael Hingson  53:04 so what are you going to talk about? Can you give us a hint? Well, the theme   Mike Paciello  53:07 is trying to get make it a little bit interesting, intriguing accessibility users and the golden goose, why trust is a vital digital asset. So kind of goes with what you and I've been talking about what we've been talking about. We we in I did actually talk about this at m&a Bling. That I think there are four key attributes of our business in our industry that needs to be pervasive and promulgated and in founded, organizations and companies need to be fully immersed in. And that's innovation, collaboration, transparency, and trust. When those four attributes are built together, then then I think we come out with a winning value proposition. And so I'm planning on taking using a trilogy of three stories, life stories, and bring them all together to show how they work out that way and the value behind them.   Michael Hingson  54:12 Yeah, I've been in sales a long time having started while working for Kurzweil and taking. Actually, my first foray into sales was the Dale Carnegie sales course, which was a 10 week program once a week with live lessons and then other things during the week, but in Massachusetts, and the the interesting thing, and the overriding message that was constantly addressed during that course was that when you're selling, you're really advising you're, you're helping people and you're establishing a rapport and if you You're doing it just to drive somebody to get your product no matter what, then you're not selling the right way it is all about trust.   Mike Paciello  55:08 Yeah, absolutely. There's no doubt. Well, I think it's all for these areas, I really, you know, especially because we're in high tech in a digital economy and digital society. So innovation is critical, right? Working together, right? dispelling the myths associated with with competition. And collaborating, I think is crucial, especially again, in our space, transparency, transparency, you know, organizations need to be, you know, transparent about what they can and can't do. This is one of I think, one of the, I don't know, I don't know exactly where to attribute it to. But this much, I do know that people with disabilities are more than happy to work with you or your organization, your company, they're there, they'll they're one of the first ones to jump on board, and help you to make things useful and accessible, right? Because it benefits that. But if you're not transparent with them, right, if you know, tell them what is what is truth, right? What my product can or can't do upfront, it worse, you, you know, you, you mark it, or you sell something that's not trustworthy, or truthful, you're gonna lose them as a community, and you're gonna, you're gonna, you're gonna get five bad vibes, because this is a very close knit community of individuals. So you've got to be transparent, it's okay to say, look, we've gone this far, I've done this much. Our plan is to go this far in over the next three, five years is what we're going to do. People with disabilities will, will will support you, they know you're making some inroads towards accessibility. They applaud the effort now, okay, so they see your plan for the future. As long as you stay true to that mission. They're all in, and you'll get all the support in the world that you need from them. Which is why trust is so important. Because once you break those first three, and you break the trust, then you got nothing.   Michael Hingson  57:14 In 2016, the Nielsen Company did a study of brand loyalty. I don't know all the details of how it got commissioned, or whatever. But one of the main points of the study was that persons with disabilities tend to be very brand loyal to those companies that include them want to work with them want to make their products available to them. And the brand loyalty is extremely strong because of that, which really goes along with exactly what you're saying.   Mike Paciello  57:48 Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I remember when Jacob did that, that study. I think I may have even been involved in it some at some level. But yeah, that's it's absolutely true. I think people with disabilities, with maybe the strict exception of possibly elderly individuals are the most free and loyal community of individuals population of individuals ever, period. When it works. Sorry, you're not going to, you know, people, I mean, you know, this, people are Jaws users use JAWS because it works. Right, right. Even though Jaws is flawed, JAWS has has bugs in it, right. Just like every other piece of it I've ever I've ever seen. I've never seen a bug free piece of software at all technology. But once users got into it and started using it, it became very, very clear that this is going to be even though they've got to pay for it. Compared to say, and, VA, right. They're very, very, very strongly loyal to it. And that's been true about all 80. Frankly,   Michael Hingson  58:58 but NVDA is is catching up NVDA has come a long way and is working better it is free, but it is still not Jaws know, at least in people's minds. And still not Yeah,   Mike Paciello  59:12 nothing. Nothing is just me just, you know, Freedom owns 80% Plus that market. Right and in who have you seen over the years that have kind of gone by the wayside? Be You know, because they just churn market. Right. So   Michael Hingson  59:30 and that will, that will be the case. As long as as you said, the trust is there. If if the sparrow breaks the trust ever, that's going to be a big problem.   Mike Paciello  59:43 Yeah, I totally agree. I absolutely agree. They know it. I know it. And more importantly, all of the individuals have visual disabilities, the users know it.   Michael Hingson  59:54 Yeah, no doubt about it. It's it's been that way and I've been using For a long, long time and have watched how they've grown and developed, and they've done some things that that have been challenging, but in the long run, it works, as you said, and that's what really is important.   Mike Paciello  1:00:13 Yeah, yep. No doubt about it, Mike.   Michael Hingson  1:00:16 Well, we have been going on for an hour How time flies when we're having fun. And I want to really thank you, if people want to reach out to you, how might they do that, learn more about the things you're doing and so on.   Mike Paciello  1:00:30 Well, if they want to learn about Web Able, if you get what we're doing, I mean, we are we're on a sponsorship drive right now. So we're really looking for sponsors going into 2022. So you can send me email at M as in Mike Paciello, P a c, i e l l o at webable.com if they want to contact me at Able Docs for documentation, accessibility and even professional services around software and Web. And you can send me email at mpaciello@abledocs.com.   Michael Hingson  1:01:02 Well, we've been we've been working together now for what since September, and October, and m&a billing and all that. And I know you're talking with folks that accessiBe, and there's a lot of exciting stuff going on there. And hopefully, we'll all be able to work together and make this a little bit more of an inclusive world. And hopefully, we'll be able to change mindsets, and get people to maybe look at the world a little bit differently than they're used to, and maybe look at it in a little bit broader and more inclusive way.   Mike Paciello  1:01:34 I totally agree. Totally agree.   Michael Hingson  1:01:38 Well, Mike, thanks very much for being here with us. And hopefully, you'll you'll have a chance and come back again. We'd love to have you back anytime. If you would have anything you want to talk about, then let us know. We'll try to catch the speech at CSUN. Not sure whether I'm going to travel down there or not this year, we'll see. But hopefully we'll we'll we'll work it out somehow. But thanks again for being here on unstoppable mindset. And for those of you who want to learn more about us, you can you can find us at Michaelhingson.com that's M I C H A E L H I N G S O N.com/podcast. And you wherever you heard this podcast, you can go anywhere where podcasts are posted and and released and you can find us there. So join us next week for another edition of unstoppable mindset wherever you are, wherever you happen to be at the time, and with whatever hosts you use. We'll be looking forward to seeing you then.   You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com. accessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

All too often questions and disputes regarding access for persons with disabilities are not settled until they wind up in a courtroom. Some of the best lawyers who address these issues have disabilities themselves and thus bring a strong personal commitment to the debate.   Meet David Shaffer, a blind civil rights lawyer who will tell us about his own commitment to the law and to the rights of persons with disabilities. As you will hear, David did not start out litigating civil rights cases and he didn't even begin his life as a blind person. He has a fascinating journey we all get to experience. From his beginning as a Stanford law student through his work today on internet accessibility and inclusion David Shaffer's story will help us all see more clearly how we all can work harder to include nearly %25 of persons with disabilities in the mainstream of society. Some directories do not show full show notes. For the complete transcription please visit https://michaelhingson.com/podcast About the Guest: David Shaffer is a blind attorney with  over 35 years of legal practice experience in the Metro area of Washington DC. He currently specializes in ADA Consulting for tech companies using his  previous work as a Section 508 coordinator and lead counsel in defending the Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority in a class action under the ADA and Rehabilitation Act. David says “my goal is to ensure the world wide web is accessible to anyone and everyone as I am legally blind, hard of hearing and have learned to understand the extreme necessity of this issue for all persons with disabilities”.   In 2006 David began losing his eyesight due to Glaucoma. As is so often the case, his ophthalmologist did not confront his increasing loss of sight. As David described it, “it was after I totaled two cars in 2009 that I finally recognized that I was blind”. He received blindness orientation and training through the Virginia Department of Rehabilitation and the Columbia Lighthouse for the Blind in Washington DC.   In addition to his work on internet access cases, David specializes in civil rights cases for women, minorities, and individuals with disabilities, and have represented hundreds of women and minorities in nation-wide class actions against federal law enforcement agencies, such as the FBI, DEA, ICE, and the Secret Service. He also represents individuals with disabilities in seeking accessible accommodations in the workplace and represents them in employment litigation. About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app. Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes Michael Hingson  00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i  capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson  01:22 Hi, welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. And today we have I think, a person who's pretty unstoppable, at least I tend to think so he he can make his own comments and judgment about that. But I'd like you all to meet David Shaffer. David is a blind civil rights attorney has lots of stories to tell I'm sure about all of that. And I think has a lot of interesting things that will inspire all of us, but also a lot of things to make us think David, welcome to Unstoppable Mindset.   David Shaffer  01:57 Welcome, thanks for the great introduction. I'm happy to be on here I look forward to discussing issues involving accessibility and adjustment to blindness.   Michael Hingson  02:11 Well, let's see what we can what we can do. So you, um, you are not blind when you first were growing up, as I understand.   David Shaffer  02:22 That's right. I always had horrible vision and was tremendously nearsighted. But until I got to about in my late 40s, it was I could still get by with glasses or hard contact lenses. And that was about the time that I acquired a guy comma. And the comma went undiagnosed for about a year due to some idiosyncrasies in my eye, which misread eye pressure on a standard test. And so by the time I went to a specialist figured out that I had glaucoma, even though the pressure test didn't show it, I was I was gone, I was legally blind my visions about 2800 But it's the closest they can measure it. But I still see some I can see shapes and things and it depends a lot on light and in various issues. But I'm pretty much reliant upon my cane and, and my technology these days to practice law.   Michael Hingson  03:42 So you sort of had to go through an adjustment process, obviously about becoming blind and being blind and acknowledging that how did all that go? What kind of training did you have? Or when did you decide that you really didn't see like you used to see?   David Shaffer  03:58 A, I realized that after I totaled two cars, that kind of was the wake up solution for me. It started off with night, severe night blindness. And so they tried to accommodate me by letting me go home at three in the winter, going home before dark, while I can still drive but quickly ended up at a point where I couldn't see the drive I couldn't see across the street. That was a tough adjustment because I was in the middle of practicing law at the time. I was a general counsel at the Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority. Just finished up huge ADA class action, kind of reforming the agency's paratransit system. And then I started realizing that I couldn't see my notes anymore that I couldn't see Oh, The face of witnesses on the witness stand. And suddenly, litigation, which was my primary focus became extremely difficult, if not impossible. It was it was very difficult because my employer had no idea how to adjust to somebody who was blind, until there's only one other blind person or organization. And she had a totally different role. So it was a mismatched series of attempts to accommodate me, that pretty much all failed, just try it. It started out with magnifiers and ZoomText and all that. But it finally became evident that I needed to learn to use the screen readers properly, and not try to just magnify things 20 times and get by. That was that was very challenging, because I was trying to keep up the practice a lot at the same time, while no longer be able to see what I was doing. Fortunately, I finally, through Columbia Lighthouse for the Blind, got hooked up with the Virginia's rehab agency. And they gave me initial, you know, training jaws and things like that on them. basic survival. But the problem is that these state agencies are so low on funding that I was expected to practice law with a total of six hours of God's training. And that's all that they would allocate to me. Obviously, that was not adequate. To become proficient enough to practice law, I can barely read a website or a document. So I just had to go out and get my own training and pay for it myself. And I still do to this day, due to lack of resources that Virginia had. I understand it's much better in Maryland, where I live now. But now that I've taught myself and paid for my own lessons, and I'm pretty advanced jobs user and, and, and Diane Tasker. So what happened next was I began a campaign at at Metro to make technology accessible was once I learned to use JAWS, I realized I couldn't use their website, because the public website wasn't accessible. I couldn't look up things for people on the phone. I couldn't use our internet at all. I couldn't even do my own timesheets anymore, because none of that was accessible. And that was a big problem. Because we'd struggled over that organization organization's initial reaction was, we're not covered by 508. Because we're not part of the federal government, despite the fact that we're a federal contractor, and therefore required to comply with 508. Anyway. So after four years of fighting, and complaining, I finally got them to adopt an accessibility policy. They made me the section 508 officer. And then again, I taught myself accessibility, I taught myself web accessibility through DQ University online, enough so that I could start guiding the, the team that that made up the website on how to make it accessible. So that was kind of how this all developed, that I went from zero competence to now being a fairly recognized   David Shaffer  08:57 web caster and user of this technology.   Michael Hingson  09:02 Let's go back a little bit. So you, you have been in law all your life. What What got you into that? Why did you decide to choose law in the first place? Because obviously, you didn't have some of the same causes that you do now like blindness and accessibility and so on.   David Shaffer  09:21 Well, I grew up in a town of 1000 people, or Ohio. My stepfather was a lawyer. He'd been a former state senator and Majority Leader of the Ohio Senate. So he was of course the only lawyer in town and the only way or pro for a while around nearby, but I saw how he helped people from anything from a divorce to a car accident DWI to a criminal offense to any sort of state funding. I mean, he did everything And, you know, clients are constantly coming to our house in the evening and not just to his office, and it was just like part of our life was what we do we help people with legal problems. I remember I was so curious about the law that we get a decent Law Library in my house. And so if I would ask him a legal question, at 12 years old, he'd make me go into his office and look it up in American jurisprudence, or how jurisprudence, bring him back the answer, and then we discuss it. So I was doing legal research from 12 years old, onward. And I, I guess, I just got hooked up with a plus the political angle I would, because we were all very active in politics. And my stepfather ran campaigns for the Democratic Congress, in our district and things like that. So politics law was kind of in my blood from from very early on.   Michael Hingson  11:06 Well, clearly, you had a good teacher, because he made you go do the research and the work. And of course, there's nothing like discovering things for yourself. But you've had other you've had other good teachers, haven't you?   David Shaffer  11:18 I have, I would, you know, at law school at Stanford, I had a interesting teacher, former Justice Scalia, for common law. That was a fascinating experience and frustrating, but boy did I learn his side of the law, and his points of view and, and his philosophy. And the rest of that I have read the camera itself, I learned on my own, but we had to listen to his philosophies quite a bit. But he was a very good teacher. And then after I graduated from Stanford, I was lucky enough to work for an incredible woman on the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals at Carter appointee, who was also tremendously liberal and, and taught me more in that year than I'd learned in three years of law school. And so throughout, I guess, my career, I've been lucky to have mentors. After the clerkship, I went to Gibson, Dunn, and Crutcher in California, a large law firm and had a litigation partner they are kind of take me under his wing and, and, you know, let me go out and my first week, I was in court, of course week on the job. And, you know, there was that gets it throughout your life, you've got to take advantage of mentors and people that really are looking out for you and then to them learn from. It's really the most valuable way to learn than trying to do everything on your own. As I learned when I lost my budget, it would have been really nice to have a lot of training fast rather than having to take a year to get up to speed on the technology.   Michael Hingson  13:18 Yeah, I mean, we we all have to take things as they come. I remember in my involvement with the law, from a legal standpoint, comes from the other side being a consumer. And I had a situation that happened, I think, in 1981, it was 80 or 81. I think it was 81. But I was denied access to an aircraft with my guide dog. And they actually, they they insisted that I had to sit in the front seat, even though the airlines policy did require that. But we went to court with it. And eventually it was appealed and it went to the ninth circuit. We had a judge in LA Francis Whalen. I don't know whether you ever encountered him here. He was pretty old. cielo or her but that's that was my closest experience to dealing with the with the appellate court directly. I've been involved in seeing other appellate cases. But it's it's it was it was interesting.   David Shaffer  14:24 How'd it come out?   Michael Hingson  14:27 The case was settled. It actually had to go back for a second trial because Francis Whalen was on the ninth, actually not the appellate court. He was in the Ninth Circuit. But when it went to appellate court the he didn't like it but the the appellate court found that he had erred and went back for a second trial and we ended up settling it which is unfortunate because it it was certainly a case that could have been a little bit more of a landmark than it was but you It was interesting. One of the things that happened at the beginning of the the case was that when the ruling went when when motions were being heard at the beginning, one of the motions that the airlines lawyer put out was, well, yeah, it's our policy that people don't have to sit in the front row with their guide dog. But that's just our policy. And so it shouldn't be allowed in as evidence and the judge allowed them, which was horrible. But you know, we all face, face those kinds of things. But Judge Whalen did what he did, and then it went to appellate court, and it and it did get settled. And, of course, overtime, the law change, there's a growth time for all of us. The Air Carrier Access Act was passed in 1986. And it needs to be strengthened. And then of course, in 1991, the Americans with Disabilities Act was passed, which you have, obviously, as a lawyer now, a lot of involvement with when when you were going through training, well, let me put it this way, when you were becoming blind and discovering you were blind, how did all of that affect you in terms of your practice of law, and your view about what you were going to do with the law and how you would do it?   David Shaffer  16:20 Well, it seriously affected my ability to practice law for about a year, it was a good time was was a government agency, because they couldn't get rid of me too easily with the disability. But after that, it really made me I mean, I'd done it, I've been doing ADEA law since before the ADEA, since I started practicing in California under the unrack. But it really hit home to me this whole feel of digital accessibility. I mean, of course, I knew about it. And, and, and, but I'd never had any cases on it in my entire practice. Until these days, so I, what I ended up doing was, first off, they switched me to internal advice from litigation. And the department, one of the departments that gave me was Ada, in addition to human resources, because I'd spent my previous 20 years as a Labor Employment lawyer, advising large corporations. So doing that, let me start trying to make some impact from within those organizations. So I get a DEA office and the human relations office to understand accessibility. And that was the first step was was an education, it really, it's something that had to go on person by person one at a time. Because just talking about it, never made an impression till I brought somebody in my office and showed them how I use JAWS, how a screen reader works, now, it doesn't work, when something's not accessible. In the minute you give them a visual and hearing example of how important it says to a blind person, you've converted them, okay? Obviously, we need to make this work for you. Because that's their obligation. But it's a person by person thing, then they take it back, and the other people don't understand it. So then they got to come down to my office and get shown, and, like, did a lot of internal training and advocacy, and force them to, you know, form the position of section 508 Officer, which by then was given all of my other jobs and make a commitment to accessibility. You know, company wide and to the public and within, and that was a long battle. But I did it from within, instead of without, probably would have been quicker if I just turned around and sued them. But lawyers generally don't like to sue on behalf of themselves. It's just not pleasant. So I worked from within and made changes, and left when I left that organization, their website was 95%, double A 2.1 compliant. And that was due to four years of work by me manually with the web department. I had three people there working for four years to fix a 15,000 page website manually. Of course, we use software level access at the time But it's all there is out there that are equally as good. But that just goes to show how difficult accessibility can be when you start from ground zero. And part of the thing that I'm into, as well as presenting people with disabilities, and advocating on behalf of people with disabilities and trying to make the ADEA stronger, and Congress, working with Congress and various issues,   David Shaffer  20:33 to educate them. And now I'm finding that as I talked to people in Congress and the staff members, again, it's just, it's an education thing, once you've shown them an example and explained how important accessibility is to 20% of their constituents who have disabilities, then it clicks, and then they're interesting. But it's really got to be a strong education effort by the blind community. And we just got to, we have to reach out and explain ourselves to others, and not feel embarrassed about being blind, but show them what we can do when we're bind, if we have the right technology. And I think, demonstrating on a daily basis that you can do the same job as anybody else can do with with as long as you got the right technology and an accessible source to read it from. You're just the same as anybody else. And and I think that's the education effort that the blind community really needs to work harder on. Because you got to change people's minds about this, and they can't view accessibility as simply an expense. That's mandated by law.   Michael Hingson  21:56 Do you think it's all about technology? Do you think that the technology Oh,   David Shaffer  22:00 it's not? I mean, it, obviously, I deal with more than just digital accessibility, you know, I was also responsible for the physical accessibility of the buses, trains and stations, and so forth. But it's an overall understanding of the concept of accessibility to the 20% of the population who has some sort of disability. And that's the hard part. To shine them, okay, well, they think, oh, there's only you know, three to 5% of the people that are blind, that need a screen reader. They're not that important to me, but about the other 15% with other disabilities, you know, almost 40% of which are cognitive. Those people are currently being left out of the world. They're being left out of jobs or being left out of information technology. And, you know, the studies show that people with IDD issues often make up the most best and loyal and valuable employees. Study after study has shown that if we simply know how to accommodate them, and that's not so easy as it is to fix a website to make it five a weight or with gag compliant. That is much more even more of an education effort. I would say the other project that I'm working on is also football people with disabilities and that we are working with a company called way map, UK company and a partnership with Verizon. And we're mapping the whole DC Metro and DC metropolitan area for the for the blind with step by step navigation. That process also has separate options for people using wheelchairs. And I was the major drafter of the US standards for this technology, as well as to 1.1 which is the standards for cognitive wayfinding which will be the next phase. So technology there is technology out there to help people with disabilities other than just blindness in its in its infancy. But some very good pilots have been done with FTA with whom I worked quite a bit Federal Transit Administration that we can make much more of the world accessible to people, not only who are blind but with other types of disabilities that make it difficult for them to navigate or to use technology.   Michael Hingson  24:47 So the the way we met was actually through as you know, accessiBe where does that fit into what is happening to make the whole internet And website access available.   David Shaffer  25:04 Well, what it's going to help do is guide people to accessible locations. If your website's accessible, then we can put you on to this app, and people can find you and not only find you, but read the menu in your restaurant. And so can tourist find you. So, by encouraging people, you know, by expanding this project, into convention centers into other places, museums galleries, where there's a ton of information, we can integrate the accessibility of the web, the original website, to, for example, the descriptions on a picture in the National Gallery to be, you know, read to you, and explained, and all that it's going to be 100% WCAG compliant. So these, I think, these all work together, it might vary his projects, to show people that there's overall issue of accessibility websites, of course, are one of the major ones. But we've got to integrate this awareness concept with not just websites, but with how do we make this world safe and accommodating for all people with disabilities, so that everybody can achieve their full potential.   Michael Hingson  26:46 So I know that you also in addition to doing the web map project, though, do or have become involved with accessor be specifically so website access in general, but accessiBe in specific, why did you choose accessiBe to work with?   David Shaffer  27:03 That's anotherInteresting story. I was do when I was the byway officer at macro, I was deep into manual coding, fixing, you know, analysis of police reports, and how to deal with them. And that's what took four years to get that website compliant. That was four years of daily work by a team of people. I was against layered approaches that first. Some of the ones that had been proposed to us at macro simply didn't work. So I just figured, okay, I'm not interested in layered approaches, when somebody gives me something that doesn't even work on their own website, then, you know, forget it. But, you know, I was introduced to accessiBe with some skepticism. And then I started trying and testing it. And I found that it made websites accessible and usable, to really the greatest extent feasible by AI technology. So, I was convinced that accessiBe is better than the other ones. Plus, what really impressed me most about accessiBe was in fact, it's not just for the blind. And it has significant settings for cognitive disorders, ADHD, seizure disorders, various types of color, vision issues, and cognitive. And I think that this is the comprehensive approach that I've been preaching that we need to accommodate all disabilities. We can't just focus on the blind community, we can just focus on the deaf community, or the IDD community. This has got to be an overall attitude about how we approach all of our technology, how we approach shopping, how we approach going into a store, getting down the street, getting on a train or bus, that we've got to bring together these concepts of Universal Design for everybody, so that the entire population has the same opportunity, as everybody else   Michael Hingson  29:23 do you think accessiBe is having success in this arena?   David Shaffer  29:28 Yeah, I do. Continue to outreach to the blind community to talk to us and give input. I give both legal and technical input to accessiBe and and that's because I can see both sides of this. I can see how the courts developing the law as well as how the technology is developing and how it's been used. And it's a fascinating place to be and I'm you know enjoying working with them. quite a bit as we try to bring more education accessibility to the 20% of the population that's left out these days.   Michael Hingson  30:09 It's interesting the society in the times that we live in. We are in such a technological era. Yet, more and more we see everything being oriented or most things being oriented toward a visual process. So websites, for example, that that put more visual stuff in. And what prompts me to mention that is, we were watching my wife and I were watching a commercial this morning on a television. And it was just some people singing a song. And there was nothing to say that it was Google talking about all the ways that it protects us. And I, and there are a lot of those kinds of commercials that do nothing but play music or Yeah, or sounds, but that have nothing to do with anything, how do we get people to recognize that they are leaving out a significant amount of the population? And oh, by the way, what about the person who gets up, I guess the marketing people don't think that that will be a big problem, and I'll come back to it. But don't think that'll be a big problem, because they'll saturate the air with the commercial. So eventually, people will see it, but they don't even deal with the people who get up during a commercial and go do something else get a slide or whatever, never see it.   David Shaffer  31:36 Right. I don't understand that either. Myself, many times I turn to my significant other and I say, what was that commercial about? I'd like the music. Cuz I don't know what they're trying to sell. I don't know why they think this is useful. Especially like you said, half the people get up and go the bathroom and commercials 12 The toilet flush at once. But yeah, I don't get it. It's just like they think all this has impact. You don't have Flash, big name, at the end, after the beautiful pictures didn't have an impact on me. So they're losing 5% of their potential customer base, do they may   Michael Hingson  32:22 be losing more, because again, anyone who doesn't see the commercial, blind or not, has the same challenge.   David Shaffer  32:32 And this is the fault of the people that look only at the visual side of things. And that's all they can think or think about these people that are creating the commercials, people that are creating websites, whatever creative people are doing this. They're looking at it. And they're deriving their impact from what they see and not what they hear. And this frustrates me, but I figure, okay, well, I'll never buy that product, and I can't tell what they're advertising. So that's one down the drain. They won't get my business. You know, what else can you do? Except deprive them of their business? If they're not going to make this commercial accessible?   Michael Hingson  33:21 How do we break into their psyche? And get them to recognize what they're doing? Which is, of course, a general question that deals with the whole visual or non disability aspect of society in general. How do we how do we get the the public at large, the politicians, the visible people of large, to bring us into the conversation? Maybe it's a good way to start that, why aren't we part of the conversation?   David Shaffer  34:00 I think we're not because we're not thrusting ourselves into it. We can just sit back and wait for these people to call us up and say, Hey, we were just thinking about whether blind people can see our commercials got any advice? No, we have to, we have to get out to you know, write, like we're doing with Congress, get out to them, and explain to them what we're seeing or not seeing. We need to get to the advertising community with some sort of education. If they really are interested in selling us products, so the the blanket, I mean, we're going to 24 million people in the United States. That's a tremendous market. We just need to get people to understand that they're losing 24 million potential customers every time they put an ad up like that.   Michael Hingson  34:54 But in general, whether we deal with the advertisement part of it or whatever you deal with the whole population of persons with disabilities. How do we get into the psyche of people into the conversation? I mean, I hear what you're saying about getting Congress and showing Congress what we do. But here's a perfect example of the problem. Several years ago, I went to a congressman who I knew to talk about the fact that at that time, and still, as part of the Javits, Wagner eau de act, it is possible for organizations and agencies to apply for an exemption. So they do not have to pay a person with a disability a minimum wage, who they bring in. And that typically is in the case of some sheltered workshops that that number has diminished a great deal, because there's been visibility, but it's still there. And the law is still there. And what this congressman said is, well, we're opposed to minimum wage in general. And so I can't possibly support this bill had nothing to do with the fact that it's still the law of the land. But we're not considered an important and I mean, all persons with disabilities, we still are not really considered part of, of society in the same way. Now, we're not hated like, some, some people probably hate different races. And and we certainly don't face some of the challenges that that women do, although bind women probably do, but but the bottom line is we as a collective group, and not just blind women, but people, women with disabilities, but we are as as a, as a total group, not included. Really, in the conversation. We see it all the time. Last year's presidential elections are a perfect example. But you could you can go anywhere and cite anything. That that looks at all of the different things that go on COVID websites were not accessible last year. So you know, how do we get into that conversation? Collectively,   David Shaffer  37:10 like, well, that is how we do it is collectively, I think, but I think we're doing too much of is that, you know, you've got the blind community doing advocating for this, you've got the people with physical disabilities advocating for their thing, that people cognitive advocating for those things. And they're all just focusing on what they need. What we all need to be focusing on together is what we need as a group of people with disability grant, granted, each of each type of disability has different needs. But if we can get everybody to understand the concept of universal design, and start applying that didn't everything we build to, from buildings to websites to whatever, then we'll be taking, we'll be including this population. But even the phrase universal design is not even fully under widely understood. But that is where we have to be gone. And we have to be doing it as the entire disability community. That is numbers, but lots of numbers of people.   Michael Hingson  38:29 Sure, since 20%, to 25% of all persons in the United States have a disability. That's a pretty large group, and it's 100   David Shaffer  38:40 million people.   Michael Hingson  38:41 Yeah, you're talking about a minority second only to depending on who you want to listen to men or women, probably they're more women than men. So men may be the minority, although they don't think so. But But the bottom line is it's a very large group of people,   David Shaffer  38:56 or it's not significant. You know, it's the most significant thing size, protected group there is under the law.   Michael Hingson  39:06 But the protections aren't always there. So for example, the other problem, yes, the other problem,   David Shaffer  39:12 which is the courts, the courts are slow to catch up to the courts don't understand this. You file a web accessibility lawsuit and find your typical federal district judge. I mean, they don't have a clue what this case is about. And then we're down to the Battle of competing experts, you know, and where does that put a judge? Where does that put a jury where they mean, the legal system is not the right place to be solving this problem. Unfortunately, it's the only place we have left to go to.   Michael Hingson  39:46 Well, I guess that's of course part of the I'm sorry, go ahead.   David Shaffer  39:49 No, go ahead.   Michael Hingson  39:50 Well, that's, that's of course part of the problem. But, you know, is it the only place to go to so for example, you wrote an article earlier this year. which I found to be very interesting and very informative the talk about web accessibility. And that article described a lot, a lot of the issues, a lot of what's being done. And maybe you want to talk a little bit about that and where people can see it, but also should should we work to be finding more people who will publicize in the world. Part of the the issues that we have when I talked about being part of the the conversation frame, frankly, I think we need to be putting out more more writings, more articles, more missives, more whatever. And as you said, we need to be putting ourselves in the conversation.   David Shaffer  40:53 We go and, you know, I, I'm, I listened mostly to NPR. And what I do notice there is they do a lot of stories on disability issues. Really impressed by the way they cover disabilities. I don't see that on mainstream media. Occasionally, you'll you'll have a feel good story on the evening news, then which one you're watching, you know, they they're tagged at the end of the last two minutes. But really, dealing with this as a societal issue. It's so low on the priority of things these days after COVID and, and overseas wards and foreign policy and everything else that's going on. We're, we're just faded where we fade into the background, or unnoticed. It's just like when, when when you when you walk into a store with somebody who's with you, they will talk to the other person and ask them what does he want to order? Instead of asking you were invisible?   Michael Hingson  42:01 Yeah. And of course, also part of the problem today, is that with everything that's going on, we face it, too. And it kind of beats you down.   David Shaffer  42:12 It does. It's, it's depressing. I mean, I my usually, my usual answer is I can order for myself in that sort of tone. But, you know, it's like we walk, walk into a dark, so up till the day with my white king, trying to find my way because they don't allow visitors now so that I can't bring him by with me to guide me. So I'm, you know, stumbling around the place trying to find the front desk and all that. And then they shove a piece of paper in front of me saying, Can you please sign in. And they've seen me walking around that reception area trying to find the reception desk with a white cane. And they turned around and asked me to sign something. They'll get   Michael Hingson  42:59 it. It's, it's all education. And I think you said much earlier is very important. We have to as hard as it is as frustrating as it is, as trying as it is on our patients. Sometimes. We have to be teachers, we have to help. But we do need to speak out, we do need to be pushing ourselves in the conversation. There are there's a lot of mainstream media that as you said, doesn't cover us much. And somehow we need to get more people to reach out to mainstream media saying Why aren't you talking about the fact that blind people and other persons with disabilities are exempt? In some situations from receiving minimum wage? Why aren't you talking more about the lack of appropriate information provided to us? Why aren't you talking about the fact that when one flies on an airplane, the flight attendants don't necessarily give us the same information that that people who can see or people who can can read don't have they already have. And I got like, the fact that people like with dyslexia also have issues.   David Shaffer  44:25 Yeah, well, pointing to the emergency exits doesn't help a lot.   Michael Hingson  44:28 Right, exactly. But they but you know, it would be so simple for flight attendants to say when they're doing their pre flight briefing. Emergency exits are located at overwing. Exits are located at rows, x and y.   David Shaffer  44:47 Row number you can, that's assuming that's a row number that you can read with your fingers.   Michael Hingson  44:53 Except when you are when you go on, you know what seat you're at. So you know what right So your count? Yeah, you can count. Yeah, they could, they could do something to make the row numbers also more accessible. But again, you do know what seat you go to. And if they know that, then you can easily count and get at least a much better sense, then what you do. I heard once somebody explained that when the preflight briefings are being given, what flight attendants are trained to do, and I don't know if it's true, but it could be, what flight attendants are trained to do is to look to see who's really paying attention to the briefings. Because those are the people that they may be able to call on to help if there really is an emergency, because they're the ones that tend to be collecting the information. I don't know if that's really true, but it certainly makes sense. And, and it is also something that more of us should do, and more of us should be demanding that they do the appropriate things to provide the access that we need to be able to pay attention.   David Shaffer  46:05 Yeah, you know, Michael, it's just, it's such an overwhelmingly huge job. I mean, we're talking about everything from websites to we haven't even talked about apps on phones, to physical accessibility to how you're, how you're treated in a doctor's office, or on an airplane or at a restaurant, or, I mean, it's, it's, it's all throughout society, that the people with disabilities face these obstacles. And courts, you know, I think websites are a fantastic place to start. But that's not the end of the accessibility discussion. We need to have much broader discussions about that. And we need to be doing it more publicly.   Michael Hingson  47:03 Right. And, and I think we can, I don't think that we need to always use civil disobedience, as our solution, although there certainly have been times in the past when that has been what people feel they need to do, and it can be successful, but it still, ultimately is about education. And if people refuse to listen, then obviously there are other actions that need to be taken. You mentioned, what happened with you with Metro and Metro, at least, was interested in working with you and allowing you to help them fix their website issue, by the way, how is it now?   David Shaffer  47:46 Oh, it's pretty good. They actually, they brought in consultants to do the remainder of the remediation and I wasn't able to finish. So they're trying to get as close to 100% compliant as possible.   Michael Hingson  48:02 And, obviously, that's, that's pretty important to do. I don't know whether accessiBe is a part of that or whether you know, have they used accessiBe in any way I'm just curious.   David Shaffer  48:12 I they I don't know who the outside consultants using right now but they haven't seen it says to be put on the site yet. I know they use accessiBe's testing tool.   Michael Hingson  48:24 Right? And can you tell us about that the test   David Shaffer  48:29 accessiBe has a very quick and free testing tool, which is one of the better ones out there on the market, including some of the ones you paid $10,000 for. And if you go to ace.accessible.com there's it's really simple, you just plug in the website name, you hit get a report, you get an immediate report within like 10 seconds of all the errors it reads it from compliant to semi compliant or non compliant. And then you can email yourself the report in a PDF form and and read all the details about what the issues are on the website. You know, and some of my own personal battles I've had recently with our county government kind of forced them to provide me with accessible materials as required by federal law. You know, I finally just sent them a report of their website or encountered entire county website is non compliant. And they said they know it. Let baffled me and what they're getting me my documents on your threat of a federal lawsuit.   Michael Hingson  49:49 You It's amazing. I recently upgraded we were talking about it before we started this. I also upgraded to Windows 11 and And there are some real challenges from an access standpoint. Or example, for example, and I, and I'm saying this after having called and spoken to Microsoft's disabilities answer desk, I needed to map a network drive. And the instructions say, click on the three dots on the toolbar, the three dots. So that's inaccessible to me, I am going to try some other experiments to see if I can access them. But in Windows 10, there were ways to do it. Why would they? And could they? And should they have updated to a new version of Windows without dealing with the access issues, and I know what they're gonna say, they did it with Microsoft Edge years ago, when Microsoft Edge came out, they knew it wasn't accessible. And they said, well, we'll get to it. Well, you know, that's, that's immediately sending the message that some of us are not as important as everyone else. We are, and I'm   David Shaffer  51:09 so sorry, I upgraded to Windows 11, I would never recommend that any visually impaired person right now until they get it fixed. It makes your life so much more difficult.   Michael Hingson  51:21 Well, but it's going to take a while to to happen. And the problem is that more and more things will become unsupported. So upgrading needs to be done. But there should be a real outcry to Microsoft, from a large number of people about the accessibility issues that they face in Windows 11. And that is something that gets back to what we discussed earlier. Microsoft should have made it accessible right from the outset right out of the gate, right. And they have the team, they have the people, they have the knowledge, it's a priority.   David Shaffer  52:02 While the priority for them is to get the product out the door, and then worry about, you know, the details later.   Michael Hingson  52:11 But still, the priority is to get the product out the door. So as many people can sort of use it as possible and the people who are marginalized well, we'll get to them eventually. Yeah, right, which is a problem. If people want to read your article, how can they do that?   David Shaffer  52:32 It's on my website, David Schaefer. lawn.com. Under the add a tab, Shaffer is spelled s AJ FF er.   Michael Hingson  52:43 So David Schaefer Law comm under the ADEA tab. Right. So what's next for you? Where do you go from here?   David Shaffer  52:53 Well, I'm, I'm also been retained by another organization, to do some congressional lobbying on behalf of ADA, making ADA explicitly include websites, and also to work to make work with them to make Congress itself accessible, working with how, with the congressional Select Committee on modernization, and, you know, we got to start somewhere, your congress has got to set the example for the country. And it's really pathetic, that the studies I've shown are that approximately 80 to 90% of congressional websites are inaccessible. And where there were their constituents to, and we have an equal right to communicate with our representatives, under the First Amendment as anybody else, and we're being deprived. And I think it's a serious issue for Congress that they've got a face, that they're not making themselves available to the entire population that's supposed to serve.   Michael Hingson  54:14 Good point. And hopefully, you'll be able to make some progress on that. We certainly want to hear from you as to how that's going. And you are welcome to come back here anytime and tell us what's happening and keep us all up to date. We really appreciate your time today. In sitting down with us and talking about a lot of these issues. Are there any kind of last minute things that you'd like to say?   David Shaffer  54:43 Oh, I just I just want to be treated the same as everybody else. And I think that's what all of us want. You know, you treat treat me like you would anybody else. with courtesy, and if it's an older person, you, you're courteous to them in a different way than you are a blind person or a deaf person. Just I'd like to see people treat people as people, and not according to what they look like, or are able to do is hear, see or or think.   Michael Hingson  55:23 Well, clearly, that's that's a goal. I think that all of us share. And I hope that we'll be able to, to see more of that happen. Excuse me, I know, being involved with accessiBe. It's an accessiBe goal. And I'm, I'm glad that accessiBe is really growing in its understanding of the issues, and that it intends to do more to try to do what it can to educate people in society about all of this. Okay, so that's part of what this podcast is about.   David Shaffer  56:00 Right. And I think we're well on our way there. We have more work to do. But we've made a lot of progress. Since I came on board and I think February I think you came on board just a little bit before that. Right. So we've, we've done a lot this year, and next year, it's gonna be even better.   Michael Hingson  56:22 Well, I hope people have enjoyed listening to this and that they've learned something. We're always interested in hearing from listeners, you are welcome to reach out to me directly at MichaelHI@accessibe.com. accessiBe, You spelled A C C E S S I B E. So michaelhi@accessibe.com. David, if you want people to be able to contact you. How do they do that?   David Shaffer  56:50 I'm david.shaffer@davidshafferlaw.com   Michael Hingson  56:57 is easy as it gets. Yeah,   David Shaffer  56:59 I try to make things easy.   Michael Hingson  57:01 Yeah, absolutely. So well, I want to thank you for being with us. We've been working to get this set up for a while you've had a pretty, pretty busy schedule. And so we're finally able to do we're able to do it. But seriously, we'd like to keep hearing from you as to what progress you're making and your thoughts. So don't hesitate to reach out and let us know if you'd like to come back on and we will chat some more. And in the meanwhile, again, if people want to reach out you can reach me at Michael Hingson. That is michaelhi@accessibe.com. And if you would like to consider being a guest on our podcast because you have some things to say, email me and we'll see what we can do. I want to thank you all for joining us on another edition of unstoppable mindset. And David, thank you as well for doing that   Michael Hingson  58:01 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com. accessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

Investing in relationships is a vital leadership skill A fascinating example of what happens when worlds collide, Susan Davidson brought a decade of business and finance experience to a career in health education after personal circumstances became a catalyst for change. Relationships, identity and community all feature strongly in Susan's leadership philosophy, helping her to successfully steer complex change both professionally and personally. Why you should listen: leadership strategies for transformation Projects are all about the people stuff Leaning in to leadership connections Amplifying leadership skills through service and empathy We explore turning challenges into leadership strengths Creating community on your leadership journey Shifting leadership focus from you to them Creating a corporate culture of curiosity by saying ‘Tell me more'

More often than not when we think of web accessibility we think of the challenges blind people face with inaccessible websites. In fact, the lack of web accessibility encompasses all disabilities.   Our episode this week is the second part of a webinar series I conducted for accessiBe.  This week we will present The Accessibility Gap part two. You will meet Josh Basile, a C4-5 quadriplegic, who will discuss the challenges he has with the internet. Josh will show you from his vantage point why businesses and companies should make internet accessibility an important part of their presence on the web. Some directories do not show full show notes. For the complete transcription please visit https://michaelhingson.com/podcast About our Guest: Meet Josh Basile a C4-5 quadriplegic, power wheelchair user, disability rights advocate and lawyer. In 2004, at the age of 18, Josh was paralyzed below the shoulders in a beach accident. Soon after he formed a 501(c)3 to empower newly injured families through SPINALpedia.com and its 21,000 paralysis-related videos. As a medical malpractice lawyer and disabilities rights advocate, Josh serves persons with disabilities both in the courtroom and through policy initiatives. As a community leader and change-maker, Josh works tirelessly to improve the quality of life the persons with disabilities and to continuously break down existing barriers to access and inclusion. To improve web accessibility and usability, Josh joined accessiBe and that accessFind initiative as the Community Relations Manager. About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app. Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes Michael Hingson 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson 01:20 A pleasant Good afternoon to everyone wherever you may be. I'm Michael Hingson. I and I am here hosting the webinar series we call the Accessibility Gap in CO hosting and with me today is Josh Basile. If I could talk straight, I'd be in good shape. Josh, welcome. Josh Basile 01:38 Thank you, Michael. It's great to be here. today. Michael Hingson 01:42 We're excited about this series of webinars because it talks about something that most everyone isn't addressing. And that is this concept of the accessibility gap. Last month, we did one, our first in the series with Curtis Chung, who is a well known assistive technology expert, a longtime consumer advocate. And we talked about the nature of the gap. And basically what we discussed last month was that there is a very significant gap between on the Internet, what exists, and the number of people with disabilities who can access what exists. And that gap grows wider every day, as more and more websites are created that are inaccessible to those of us who happen to have a disability. The world, the industry, and most all of us are not doing anything to bridge that gap. And we thought that today, one of the main ideas that we can talk about and one of the main objectives we have is to make you aware that it crosses disability lines, it isn't just blind people, although we tend to be pretty visible at dealing with the accessibility gap because of the fact that we don't get a lot of access to content for a variety of reasons. But no one thinks about the fact that it goes further than that, and that it isn't just blind people. So Josh happens to be a quadriplegic uses a wheelchair. And I've mentioned last month my wife has a paraplegic who uses the chair, but she doesn't have a lot of the issues that say Josh does, and Josh will talk about that. For my part, I have been blind my entire life. I have been using the internet, since it's been around I have found some websites that work pretty well have found a lot of websites that are not very accessible and don't work pretty well. And more recently, even finding that some of the websites that I can access, when people actually do the work of remediation of those websites. That is they work to make them accessible. A lot of content becomes visible and usable for me that I've never been able to access in use before. And I'm sure that Josh also has lots of stories about that. So Josh, why don't you introduce yourself a little bit. I think some of the people here know my story more than yours. So why don't you go ahead and tell us about you. Josh Basile 04:14 Thanks, Michael. So, hi. Hello, everyone. I'm Josh basil. So just let you know about my journey. I grew up in Maryland, and was an avid tennis player and loved all sports. And after my freshman year of college, this is back in 2004. I was on a family vacation at the beach and a wave picked me up, threw me over my boogie board and slammed me on my head that day I shattered my neck. I was facedown in the water unable to turn over. And luckily my friends saw me floating and they pulled me onto the sand and that was the start of being a sea for fact quadriplegic. I'm paralyzed below the shoulders. So I use a mouth control to operate my computer, I do have enough movement in my hand, that I'm able to operate my joystick, I can't even lift my hand off my joystick. But that's my level of injury. But I never let my spinal cord injury or my unique abilities stop me from moving forward and continuing to wheel after my dreams, I ended up going to community college after my injury, then went to undergrad, and then went to law school and graduated magna cum laude without ever flipping a page with my fingers. Technology's pretty amazing. And I think a lot of what we're going to talk about today is how technology is advancing in beautiful ways to bridge the accessibility gap. I have a nonprofit called determined to heal. And we help simplify the transition for newly injured families through information, videos, through adventures. We just try to live with an adventurous spirit, adventurous wheels and, you know, keep moving forward. There's no point to really reinvent the wheel. others in the community can show you what's been done before you and give you ideas on how to customize your journey forward. Mike, thank you for letting me have an opportunity to speak. Michael Hingson 06:11 Well, Josh, let me start by asking you a question. Because I'd like to really hear it from your perspective. What, what do you feel is the accessibility gap? How would you break it down? If you're dealing with it in terms of all of us? Josh Basile 06:26 I think the simplest way to think of the accessibility gap is we have accessible websites, and we have inaccessible websites that exist. And the gap is what's that divide? What how is it growing? Is it is the gap coming closer together? Are you getting to put more inaccessible websites, or they're getting to be more accessible websites at any given moment. And unfortunately, the gap is growing in the opposite direction, every single day, every single second, there's more inaccessible websites being launched than accessible ones. And it's just it's not the direction we should be moving in. It's unfortunate, but so much of it is because so much of the content management systems that exist out there, make it so darn easy to build websites no longer with manual coders that know how to build it right from the beginning. And right now it's just anybody can go and plug in and pull over and build a website with a click of a button and not actually put in the accessible elements needed for people to explore, understand what's in front of them, and be able to really, truly experience a webpage as any person without disabilities experiencing it. Michael Hingson 07:43 Let me add to that the gap is not only in the actual fact that websites are inaccessible in the number and the in to some degree, the percentage of websites that are inaccessible is growing. But we have another gap, which is really what leads to the title of today's webinar, which is different disabilities, same goal. The fact is that while people are making their websites and as Josh said is becoming easier and easier to do, what we're not seeing is any major effort on any level, to make business owners who make websites more aware of the need for accessibility. And we're not seeing those who really should be involved in addressing the issue. We're not seeing them increase awareness. Programmers aren't learning about access. The schools aren't training coders and programmers about access the content management systems that Web site creation systems, especially the ones that make it easy, like a WordPress or site builder and any number of other systems that are out there. They're not mandating access, and they're not incorporating access right from the outset. And the reason is because of the real gap that exists, the awareness gap. There's not much of anything being done to address this whole concept of awareness. And that is what we really need to do. I don't think, and I'm sure Josh, you would agree. And I want to hear you and what you say about it, but I don't think that anybody really Mullah is malicious and they're ignoring making websites accessible. They just don't know Don't you think? Josh Basile 09:44 Yes and no, I think there's many different sides of the coin of why people don't make their websites accessible. One is definitely an awareness issue. before my injury, I really didn't know anybody with a significant disability. And you know, my injury gave me a new perspective, a new way of experiencing the world, for me a new way of seeing the world, in so many different things that I never knew, or was concerned about. But a lot of the times, it's, you know, as you're building a website, so much of the business world look at it, like, it's, it cost me, you know, $100 $200 to build a website, and to make it accessible, it might cost me 10 times that amount, or even more, and then they make decisions on money, which, you know, in respects, it's, if it could be done right from the beginning, you wouldn't have that issue. Or if you rely on other types of solutions, that you can get it done in a much more financially feasible manner. But I think so much of it, like you said, is basically not knowing, not being aware. But I think there's definitely a lot of different factors that contribute to why the internet is not accessible. Michael Hingson 10:57 But I think that the majority of people if they understood, things like 20%, of all people are one out of every five persons in the world has a disability. And most of them can't utilize the web, the way the other four out of five can. If people who are creating websites understood that one out of five people aren't able to take advantage of their websites and thus do business with them. They would be even if it's just a financial motivation, want to make websites accessible, but it still goes back to that level of awareness that they don't know that and they don't know about accessibility, most people don't. And unless they have direct interaction, they probably won't. Until the time comes, that disabilities truly become a topic that we're as a society willing to discuss and bring to the forefront. In the past several years, we've certainly heard a lot about diversity with issues regarding women like women in Hollywood, we saw a lot of that dealing with the Oscars last Sunday, or different races and so on, and how all of that is changing. And that landscape is changing. But the landscape for persons with disabilities still is not because the mainstream of society has yet to decide to make its mindset inclusive, that to bring all of us in for whatever reason, it still is that way. And I think that's something that that we need to deal with. And hopefully things like this webinar will help raise some awareness and find that more people will become aware, because I do think that mostly people, if they understand want to do the right thing. The other part about it, Josh, is, as you said, it needs to be inexpensive, and it needs to be easy to make happen. And the reality is that there are a lot of people who have found some pretty easy solutions that have made their websites accessible, they feel that it has no one has objected to the websites, since they've put technology into play that makes their website accessible. So they're happy. And they're able to go on and do their business. And of course, that works until something doesn't like the the website server goes offline or something like that, then they don't have a website, or it can be that somebody says, you know, I tried to do something on your website, and I couldn't make it work. Can you help me with that, or they people will speak up and say, we have an issue. And then when that happens, the good website owners will address the issue. And hopefully that they have resources to make that happen. Josh Basile 13:52 When it's about the fact that businesses just are not are not tapping into the disability community. If you have one out of five different potential customers that could potentially benefit and purchase or access the information on your website. Why wouldn't you want to reach that audience that we're talking about billions of dollars of untapped customers that because a website's not accessible, that they can't fully reach that audience. And even studies have been done over the years that the disability community is the most brand loyal community in the population in the entire world. Once we are treated properly and cared for and acknowledged, we go back and back as repeat customers, to these businesses. And it's not only just us, it's our family members. It's our friends, because we speak about it. We talk about Yeah, we went to that place and treated as well. And we go back and again, we invite people there we let them know. We love being mentors to other community members. Michael Hingson 14:59 So tell them So tell me, why is there such strong brand loyalty when that happens, Josh Basile 15:05 because if you look, you know, there's 350 million websites in the United States, or that's tapped in with with within the United States. But yet, less than 2% of those websites are accessible. So just thinking about just businesses in general, when you only have a select few of businesses that truly speak and serve our community, you remember those, and you go back to those, because that's where you're going to get the best experience, you're going to get an experience with less struggles, less frustration, it's just going to be easier. And that's what customers want. And that's what persons with disabilities want. That's what anybody wants. Michael Hingson 15:51 One of the one of the strongest messages that any good salesperson learns is when you establish a rapport with your prospects and with your customers, when you get them to feel like you're speaking to them, not pressuring them, not just trying to, as a lot of people would say, buy used car salesman, sell them, but you're speaking to them, you are concerned about them, they're going to pay attention to you. There's so many examples of that if you deal with people in real estate, the good real estate agents will tell you that, although we may have sold someone a house, the fact is that if we keep in touch with those people, if we know what's going on in their lives, even though they're not going to buy from us for a while because they're not moving. They'll refer other people to us. And when they do need to move, they will remember us and they will come back to us. And and the reality is that works when you have that genuine concern. And the the 2% of websites that are accessible, are transmitting a message, we care, we are working to make ourselves available and accessible to you, whoever you are. And the result is we're going to be brand loyal. And we are brand loyal to those people that really touch us and talk to us. And that is I think one of the most important things that we as people discussing this today and people who create websites, and more important the people who are going to be involved. And the companies that are going to be involved in fixing websites, the most important thing they can know is it really is about the consumer, much more than the business. Because you may get a business as a customer. But ultimately, it's about getting the consumer, the users of those websites to both the accessibility that has been created. And then obviously, the products that you want. My favorite example that I came up with just on the spur of the moment, once a couple of weeks ago is that you can have websites that people work on and do things with and supposedly make accessible. But if consumers have a problem with it, it's like cat food. If you are a company that manufactures cat food, and you sell it to your customers, that's really great. But it only works until the cat tastes it. And if the cat doesn't like the taste of it, and if that tends to be a general consensus, you've got a problem somewhere until you please the cats, nothing's going to work. You know what I'm saying? Josh Basile 18:47 Absolutely. So I think so much of having an accessible website, just talks to like, like you said about caring, about respecting about just inviting someone to have a seat at the table, or to really open the door enough to let somebody in, that might be peeking in, because it's not fully accessible. And, you know, in order to truly experience a website, you need to experience all four corners of it, you need to experience all the pages, if you can see the product, you can read about the product, but you can't check out and purchase the product. You know, that's just half of the picture. That's half the half of the puzzle. And you know, that's the trouble of some websites. You know, you just can't navigate the full thing without you know, calling in a family member or friend to help you get across and to tell you the truth. Not everybody has those people next to them to help them at any given moment. So it's making the website accessible is just so important. And right now as the accessibility gap is going in the opposite direction. It's something that we need to do. And like right now we're talking about the issues which is the first stage of have an understanding that there is a major problem. And then it allows us to figure out solutions on what we can do to bridge that gap, and how we can work together as a united front to bridge that gap. And I'd love to talk a little bit about how we've done this well in the past, and how we haven't done it well in the past, within the disability community. Michael Hingson 20:23 Sure, but before we do, can you maybe give us a couple of stories of your own experiences, or what you've what you've experienced or seen about people who've had real accessibility gap problems in your community, and then I'll tell a couple also, well, Josh Basile 20:40 so too often, the way that I've seen this, experienced it, and just witnessed it from the history lessons of diving deeper into the wall into kind of the past, is that the disability community, as always, or for the most part, in an afterthought, products are rushed to market industries are created. And the disability community is not thought of until years later, when we basically, let's say, with with build, building a building, like before the ADEA was existed, buildings were built, and you know, if they were built accessible is one thing. If not, you know, later on, they would create a ramp to let somebody in. And probably the best industry right now that you look at it in recent years, is the ride sharing industry, the Ubers, and the lifts of the world, they basically came onto the market, crushed the taxi industry, which had regulations on accessibility, and then basically came into this new ride sharing world and had zero accessible vehicles out there for persons with disabilities. And it made it so hard to, to get picked up if you run a power if you're in a manual wheelchair, and really almost impossible if you're in a power wheelchair. And now, as years go on, enough persons in the disability community have spoken loud enough, and enough things have been getting into the media. And now these companies are starting to say, you know, we want to help this customer base now that we're being forced to. And, you know, we don't want to force businesses to do the right thing. But at the same time, it's the way it's been done over the years. And it's unfortunate. And as the accessibility gap becomes wider and wider, it's just, we need to keep the conversation going to let businesses know that they need to do this. Michael Hingson 22:37 Yeah, that's a good point. And continuing with the rideshare example. I was one of the plaintiffs in a lawsuit a few years ago against Uber. Because Uber wasn't dealing at all with the issue of blind people with guide dogs traveling in Uber vehicles. Drivers would show up, discover it with a blind person with a guide dog and drive off. And we didn't even know that they were driving off or if we did no, because they said I'm not taking you because you have a dog and I'm not putting any dogs in my car. And they would drive off Uber's response was even at the beginning of the litigation. Well, we don't have any responsibility in that because all we're doing is matching drivers and passengers. So we're not involved in that, well, yes, they are their contract employees, the Uber drivers, we're not letting blind people in with guide dogs and the Americans with Disabilities Act specifically addressed that kind of a concept. So what took a lawsuit, and even now with the lawsuit that was finally settled, there are countless cases of drivers with Uber and and some with Lyft as well, that continue to not accept blind people, even though especially with Lyft, there's been a fair amount of training. I just read a situation last week where a woman after the lawsuit had over eight to 18 or 20 different examples of where Uber drivers would refuse to take her would send the information to Uber didn't get very many positive results, filed a case it went to arbitration and she got over a million dollars because Uber wasn't doing what it was supposed to do. So there's still a lot of resistance in the industry saying you're not going to force us to do something that we don't want to do. And the reality is that shouldn't have to be that way because there's no magic about a blind person and a guy dog that is well behaved going on any or in any Uber vehicle. You know, and that is just as true with the internet and my my example that comes to mind is when target refuse to deal with the internet and making their web site accessible for blind people back in the early 2000s. And it took a lawsuit filed by the National Federation of the Blind, and an $8 million settlement to get target to finally address the issue. It wouldn't have cost anywhere near that for target just to go off and make the website accessible, but they weren't going to be forced. And that's unfortunate, because they were missing up to one out of five persons in the United States or in the world, their worldwide, being able to use the website. And I don't know whether Target has addressed the issue for all disabilities. And I think that's a very relevant point for us to deal with. Your website isn't accessible unless it's really dealing with all disabilities. It isn't just being blind, it isn't just dealing with what a person in a chair a quadriplegic has to deal with, take a person with epilepsy, and they go to your website and start to see a lot of different blinking elements on the site that can invoke seizures, it's just as pertinent even persons who are deaf or hard of hearing, oftentimes without having good captioning. And without videos being captioned, can be a problem for blind people, those same videos, without audio descriptions of the videos, that can be a problem. There's a lot to accessibility. And it is something that we all do need to address. Josh Basile 26:32 Well, it's the unique functionality that you're saying, of almost, you know, for each person with a disability, we're experiencing a website differently based on our unique abilities. I find it amazing that, you know, we have AI solutions now, that can create profiles, based on your functionality where you go to a website, where if you have epilepsy, you can click a button, and it can turn off, you know, gifts and other types of blinking lights. Or if you have a cognitive disability, it can make that information that's on the page easier to absorb. Or if you have a quadriplegic, you can use keyboard navigation, to be able to get through all the dropdowns and get through all the different parts of the page. And for the blind community. It has so many different integrations with jaws, and screen readers and other things of the sort. The biggest thing that, you know, we have the ability now through technology to have a united front on how we can come together to make websites accessible. Too often, if you look in the history, and just I see it, I live outside Washington, DC. And when I go to Capitol Hill to advocate, it's always every unique disability group advocating for themselves and having a fight with legislators, please help us. But what too often doesn't happen is that we have a united front of all disability groups coming together for you know, a mission to make a particular thing accessible. And I think that's what we need to change with the internet like we are going in the wrong direction when it comes to the widening gap. And the only way to bridge it is if we all come together, persons with disabilities, unique populations of persons with disabilities, persons without disabilities, people that are manual coders, people that are in the artificial intelligence world, the more and more people we come together in the business community, we all unite under a common mission to make the internet more accessible. And we can do beautiful things together if we do that. But the trouble is, how do we get messages like we have in today's webinar out to the world to start a movement to get people involved to get people to have a call to action. And I hope we're starting that right now. And I know other people chimed in about this in the past, but we just got to keep having this conversation. Michael Hingson 28:55 And you know, it is true that people with different disabilities do have in some senses different needs. And there's relevance in advocating for specific needs. But there are also areas of commonality. And it would be very difficult to imagine that the reality of making the internet accessible for you, is really different than making it accessible. For me. It's all about access. It's something that we all should work on together. And we need to get more business owners and more of the companies that are involved in making the internet accessible to work together. There's not just one way to make the Internet accessible there. There are some who say that there are some who say the only way to do it is you got to code it. You got to do it right. By hand. There are those who say the only way you're truly going to make it happen is if you start with accessibility right from the outset. Well that's definitely true. That is, if everything were such that you could not create or publish an internet website and content without ensuring its accessibility because the technology demanded it, then a lot of things would go away and there would be access. But the reality is, that's not working for us. So the ideal is a wonderful thing. But it is an ideal, and it isn't something that anyone is going to make happen in the near future. So you do have a lot of different other kinds of alternatives and aspects that need to be addressed. So that the fact is that whether it's being done through artificial intelligence, or whether it's being done through manual coding, the goal is the same, the results will be the same. And the deed, certainly that is the need to make websites accessible, is the same. And the reaction, the reality is that should all be a unified front, you know, we'll see, maybe things like the World Wide Web Consortium will recognize that and that is, of course, where a lot of the standards come from. And I guess it's relevant that we talk about standards just a little tiny bit. That is to say, there are standards, there are guidelines, well, not so much standards today as guidelines that say this is what you need to do to have a website be accessible. And those generally rely on putting in codes, and in doing the website accessibility remediation through a coding process. But that doesn't work. Because it's a one by one kind of a solution. That is you got to do it to each website. Well, now we're finding that some companies, and I will mention accessiBe is the one that I know, of course, I'm a little bit I won't say bias, but oriented toward accessiBe because I've seen it. But the fact is, artificial intelligence is a solution that will help make websites accessible, it's doing it. And that makes perfect sense. Because artificial intelligence is all around us in the world, whether we happen to have an echo from Amazon of Google Home, whether we have technologies that that use other ways of interacting with the internet, we have Netflix and other websites that use artificial intelligence to talk about our shopping habits. For heaven's sakes, Apple just updated their iPhone iOS software, because Apple felt that there were too many websites or companies that were invading the privacy of users and looking at what they do, and using that to customize advertising. That's AI, right. So it is all around us. But we all could work together. And we all could resolve and solve pretty quickly this accessibility gap, don't you think? Josh Basile 32:50 working together is basically everything you said is we have to have many different pieces of the puzzle. In order to do this, we can't just have one piece of the puzzle and expect the whole picture to come out. But with that being said, I'm a big believer, you know, my my world as a quadriplegic, it was 20 3040 years ago, the difference in my life is has always been technology, technology changes everything, for someone that is paralyzed below the shoulders. And when it comes to the internet, I think we're getting to a point where, because of artificial intelligence solutions, we now have scalable ways of really attacking the accessibility gap in ways that never existed before. And it's only gonna get better as we invest more time, resources and energy, like you said, into artificial intelligence, machine learning, all these other components that where we can break down those accessibility barriers, with either just embedding a specific piece of code that ends up going over the website, behind the scenes with computer software, like the manual coding, yes, if you can do it right from the beginning with manual coding, that is an awesome option. But the second that you update that website, you have to go back and make sure that it's accessible again, because if you don't have that accessibility element and for updated information, you know, you're closing the door slowly and slowly on that website when it comes to accessibility. Michael Hingson 34:21 And that's part of the the challenge that a lot of businesses have is that the only way to do that if you're coding is you've got to keep someone on retainer. And if we use the last year as an example, the pandemic has made that all the more difficult because the money just isn't there to do that. But even in a non pandemic time for smaller businesses that that want to create accessibility if you have to keep someone retained. That's going to significantly eat into your profits. Should you do it. You got to find a way to keep the website accessible but remember part of the justification Is that you're going to have a lot more potential traffic going to your site. And if you start to tell people, hey, my websites accessible, come and see me. People who come and discover that will, because of that Nielsen study that we talked about earlier, will be brand loyal, I can tell you from personal experience, that's always going to be the case. And I've been in sales and marketing, since, well, literally since 1976. But even before then, I've been in sales my entire life, because as a blind person, I've had to sell just to convince people to let me take my diet guide dog somewhere, long before the ADEA, I've had to sell in so many ways, all of us have Josh, you've had to sell to convince people and as a lawyer, you're always selling. And I don't mean that in a negative way you are arguing a case is a sales presentation in a broad sense. Josh Basile 35:53 For me, it's always advocacy, ever since my injury. So when I was first injured, I was on a ventilator for five weeks, and wasn't able to speak a word, I was only able to blink with my eyes to communicate with my family. And ever since that day that I got my voice back. I promised myself I would never be silenced again. So I've exercised my vocal muscles, my my vocal, my advocacy with my mind to make sure that every word counts. And so much of what we're doing right now is figuring out how can we advocate for a more accessible internet. And we, because we live it, because we speak disability, we understand what we need to do to make this possible. And we need to do it together, we need to have actual solutions that are scalable, and we need to attack the 315 million websites that exist right now to make them accessible is not going to be an easy feat. But the if we don't do something about it, it's just going to get wider and wider. And that scares me. Michael Hingson 36:56 And it's 350 million, by the way and growing. And that's of course, the issue. I am on some email lists, I've got a cut down on the number of unsolicited emails I get. But I'm seeing a number that talk about how Amazon is changing the way it operates. And so join this webinar to learn how you can set up a sales system with Amazon and sell products on Amazon, even if you don't have your own or how you can set up a system to do this or that or whatever. All of those are websites. And all of those websites come without any specific process of making them accessible. So Shopify is a major marketing system that's out there, and you can get a website set up on Shopify, but the basic Shopify system doesn't, in of itself, create real accessibility, a website might be usable, because the words are there, although we may or may not be able to see the pictures. One of the interesting things about Shopify, having looked at it from the the viewpoint of accessibility is that there is someone who has put something up that says that if you have a Shopify website, here's how you can put accessibility on it. Whether it's accessiBe, or something else, the bottom line is, we mostly aren't paying attention to it still. And that's the gap and it's going to continue to grow. Josh Basile 38:27 Well, I think that this year alone with the pandemic, just shows how much we we rely on the internet to access the world. We've all been stuck in our homes for so long. Can you imagine, you go to persons with disabilities, let's say you know, everybody that's that doesn't have a disability. And you gave them the problems that we faced with internet accessibility. There would be outrage, people would not people would be so mad that they couldn't access the world. And the fact is that, you know, we've had to live this year with a lot of this and accessibility and it's getting wider. It's I think the pandemic is one of those moments in time that it's going to push persons with disabilities to realize that if we don't do something now, we're gonna I want to say too late, because I think as technology advances, more and more breakthroughs can happen. But we this is the time to do something about it. Michael Hingson 39:24 Research In Motion was the company that invented the Blackberry, and I know how familiar you are with the Blackberry. But there was one night when their servers dropped. And people went 12 hours without being able to use their blackberries. And I heard and read reports about how people panicked they couldn't get anything done. And it was a night by the way here in the US. Some people committed suicide over it. A lot of people were very stressed because their access to the world as they viewed it was gone. and it can happen in so many ways. For us, the access is gone a lot most of the time. And what we're saying is, let us be part of the solution. Let us be invited to the party, and let us have access. We want to help you make it happen. We're not trying to abuse anyone. But no one should resist the concept of trying to bridge the gap. Josh Basile 40:31 Absolutely. And so right now, we were about 45 minutes, and I was just looking at, and I would love for our participants, the people at our party, our webinar party to ask any questions, so we can keep these conversations going. So please go to the chat. And let us know your questions. And we can Moderator 40:50 So guys, we already have a few questions. We can definitely attend. Michael Hingson 40:54 Let me just before you start, we started about three minutes late. So we'll go until well, I'm on the West Coast, and Josh is on the east coast. So we'll go to 103 or 403. Or we're Gil is it's later than that. Go ahead, Gil. Moderator 41:10 Yeah, it will start and thank you. Michael Hingson 41:11 Thank you for being here. Gillen, for staying awake for us. For sure. For Moderator 41:15 sure. As Michael, it's my pleasure. So we'll start and say that because there were a few people were asking if we're gonna publish this or oracare archive these recording. So we'll definitely be using social assets. Yeah. So the first question we got from the audience, is there a cookbook that define the necessary accessible elements for a variety of cryptic, categorial disabilities? Michael Hingson 41:42 There is, and Josh can add to it. But again, the World Wide Web Consortium has created guidelines and things that it says needs to be involved in an accessible website. I want to, though say that those standards don't guarantee accessibility. That is to say accessibility goes beyond whatever guidelines that are created to talk about how to code a website, how artificial intelligence can make a website accessible. The fact is a website is accessible if ultimately, it is fully functional and usable. And so one of the examples I would give is, I have a website and I think I gave this example last time, but it's worth repeating. My website was updated earlier, well, late last year now, actually, in August or September. And when it was updated, it was done by a person who I discovered didn't really have a lot of expertise in accessibility. But he updated it and there were images on the website. There were other things on the website. And one of the specifics on the website was pictures of me and my guide, dog, Roselle, who you can for those of you who can see it, Roselle is behind me over my right shoulder. Roselle and I were in the World Trade Center on September 11. And we escaped I was the Mid Atlantic region's sales manager at the time for a company and artificial intelligence when we brought accessiBe onboard. Artificial Intelligence interpreted that image as man in black suit hugging yellow Labrador retriever, which is correct. That's exactly right. But that's not really saying what that image is showing that I would want people to know, what I want people to know is Michael Hanson, hugging Roselle. And, you know, the process will continue to improve. But the standards would have said, if the all tags were put in the image was described, even though it's not what I would want it to be. So there are standards and Josh, if you want to talk about that, but I'm just saying it does go beyond the standard as well. Josh Basile 44:00 So I think you answered that very well, Michael. Moderator 44:04 Great. So Michael, we talked about you took you talked about the person who will create your website and this, this is a great, so we're for the next question. Who do you think should be responsible of the accessibility of the website? Is it the website owner or the person or the agencies that creating the website? And how can you? How can you know if your website is accessible or not? Josh Basile 44:29 In my opinion, I firmly believe we all need to be accountable. If you're a website owner, if you run an organization, if you run a business, you need to understand all of your consumers and you need to serve all of your consumers. So just because so at any given moment, you're always thinking about all these different demographics that you're serving. And if you end up forgetting one of those demographics, you're losing out and and I think the response to ability has to be on those that can be held accountable with the decision makers. And you know, as a decision maker, you need to take the extra time to dive deeper into making sure that your business is reaching the max number of people. And so that's my opinion to that go. Michael Hingson 45:20 Yeah, I think, ultimately speaking, if you're going to do and ultimately speaking, it would be the website owner, that is they're responsible for their website. And they should be obligated to make sure that their website is accessible. So I think in one sense, they're responsible. But I am also with Josh, we're all part of the solution. So when we discover websites, we should contact the owner. And I'm going to comment on that statement in just a second. But we should contact the owner and say, you know, your website is not accessible. The reality is a lot of us who have disabilities who are in the disabled community of persons with disabilities, we know enough to suggest places to go or what you need to do, we can introduce website owners, and I think that they should be responsible for, for making the website accessible, but we can help with that. Josh Basile 46:23 A good point there, Michael, it's, you know, it's not just the accountability of the website owner, but us as a community to have that conversation to let them know when it's not, because it's just not I was on a friend's website the other day, and I saw a few broken videos, you know, until he or she knew that those videos were broken, it was gonna go undiscovered control, that owner stumbled upon it themselves. So I think having that discussion about accessibility, you know, brings accessibility to light, and people start making it a point to do it. Michael Hingson 46:56 I absolutely agree. And I think that the companies that are involved in website access, need to and making websites accessible, need to be part of the solution, in a general way, and certainly, different companies are going to promote their products. But I think they should also provide people with just general conceptual articles, general conversations, discussions about accessibility. And, yes, we all promote our own products. But you know, there are a lot of colleges and universities in the United States, for example, and in most countries, and we compete for students, in our colleges and universities. But what we don't see is by and large colleges and universities saying, Well, anybody that goes to this kind of school is really going to a scumbag organization. Maybe they do it, and I haven't seen it. But the reality is that colleges and universities promote their programs, but they generally tend to do it in a positive way. And they don't deny the fact that if somebody goes to another school unless it truly demonstrates that it's not a good school for all sorts of reasons that we don't need to go into here. But unless they demonstrate that, then the fact is, we all need a college education. And the first thing colleges and universities will tell you is you need a college education, which is of course what they're promoting. And they'll say even if you don't go to to Harvard, but you go to the University of Southern California, that's good school. And so sorry, we didn't get you. We think that we're better but you went there, you're still getting a college education. And that's important. Moderator 48:43 Moving forward to the thank you so much for that. Moving forward to the next question. Can you provide some examples of website in the 2%? weren't doing this? Well? Michael Hingson 48:56 Gil, or Josh, do you want to or? Josh Basile 48:59 I think, yeah, I'd like to see how Okay, Michael Hingson 49:02 okay. I'm going to just send people to the access of the website because there are a list of sites that they use, or that they have remediated, and you can go there and see them. I'll name a few Oreo calm, which is the company that makes Oreos Energizer the battery company. I learned last week that the Los Angeles Lakers store Lakers store.com is accessible. You can go to any of the consumer organizations like the National Federation of the Blind. They have they have not used accessiBe but they have made their website accessible to a good degree, although there's more work that can be done to do that. There are a number of sites that are out there. By the way, if you want to know and I think you've asked this skill if you want to know if a website's accessible. You can go to accessiBe.com www.accessibe.com, where you will also see something mentioned called A C E. ACE is a free website audit tool, and there are a number of them out there. But ACE is a free website audit tool that you can use in will ask you to type in a web site name. And then it will audit that site and tell you based on the World Wide Web Consortium guidelines, the web Web Content Accessibility Guidelines and so on, it will tell you how accessible that site is. And so that's another place to go to look at whether a website is accessible or not. But ultimately speaking, what you can do is to go visit a website and see how usable it is. And how usable it is needs to include. If you're blind, for example, the things that you don't see, and they and even though you don't know about them, that's where programs like Ace can help. And you can learn about them. There are so many examples of people who thought their websites were accessible and didn't do anything. But as I said, they don't do menus, they don't do image descriptions. And they don't do other things that give us the information that we need to have. Josh Basile 51:18 With that in mind. It's a question from James that the vast majority of 350 million websites are small businesses or smaller, what tools can those small businesses and nonprofits use and survive the costs? So I know, first of all, you know what I'm going to say. The small business purposes, yeah, accessiBe provides the services at a much much lower rate than manual coding. thing I love about the nonprofit of that is that accessiBe, as we said that they are going to provide the accessory services 100% free for nonprofits. So for like my nonprofit, I was able to get it up and running for free, and which I'm now loving so much. So all in all profits, it's just sharing that with your communities that this exists for them is an incredible, I'm making it accessible. Michael Hingson 52:10 I'm on the board of a nonprofit that added accessiBe independent of me to their website about a month ago, accessiBe has also said that if anyone knows, or is involved with a COVID-19 site, especially vaccination websites, and so on, that accessiBe will provide its product free of charge to any COVID-19 site. And Kaiser Health News, or Kaiser Health Net, did a survey a couple of months ago, they surveyed 94 websites that were related to COVID 10 of them had some amount of accessibility and the other 84 did not. That's not what should be going on. Especially when among other things, government agencies are supposed to know about the stuff. Josh Basile 53:01 That's it's really scary that during COVID That you're not allowing or making sure that your website is accessible before you make it go live. That just is such a disservice to to persons that are the most vulnerable to COVID. And that, you know, it's in my eyes it is it's life or death. And if you don't have the ability to get that vaccine, or delay that vaccine, that it's so terrifying. Michael Hingson 53:29 Yes. Moderator 53:31 How do you think COVID is affected accessibility, especially with the rise of CFS? S and E long COVID, resulting in more disabled people? Michael Hingson 53:45 Well, I think that answer is part of it. If as more people become persons with disabilities in one way or the other because of COVID, they may, depending on what has happened to them need to have website access that they don't have today. We have seen some companies respond really well. Zoom, for example. I don't know when it first started. But when zoom became very popular, it became visible that Zoom actually has an access team and whenever something is reported to the team that is not accessible with Zoom, they jump right on it. And I've seen fixes to accessibility issues within a matter of years, even just a few days. That one came up last week. Were regarding a keyboard command to to start a meeting. And it's been fixed. It was an access issue. There was a button there was a key command to to utilize that became broken. It's now been fixed. So they've been great at responding. I don't know of any other companies that have put that level of commitment into the process. But it is something that, that all companies should do, especially large companies, for small companies. If you rely on accessiBe, for example, reporting to accessiBe helps, because accessiBe will address it or let you know that it's not an accessibility issue or what they can and can't do and so on. And I think it's all about response. So the companies that are going to succeed are the ones that are truly responding, ultimately to the consumers. And I think we have maybe just about, well, three minutes. So do we have another question? Moderator 55:43 Yeah, just one more for symbolic way to sum up this webinar. So you mentioned at the beginning of the webinar, that there are 250 million websites out there and only 2% of them are accessible. So how optimistic are you that is that there is a true chance to close the gap. Michael Hingson 56:07 There absolutely is a true chance to close the gap, by the way that 350 million is in the US alone, I think the estimate is something like 1.5 billion worldwide, and it continues to grow. And I want Josh to answer as well. But absolutely, there are ways and there is a chance to bridge the gap x SMB says that they want to work toward getting the internet completely accessible by 2025. Great goal. And I believe that the commitment of the company is genuinely to make that happen. I know that there are many other people not related to accessiBe who also want to make the Internet accessible. And the fact that there are people who want to do it, in and of itself means there's a chance. So we just need to find ways to work together and collectively make our voice a much stronger voice. Josh Basile 57:02 Just investing energy and time into scalable solutions. And the reason why I emphasize scalable is because the gap is so darn large. If you go in and expect to bridge that gap just manually, we don't have enough skilled people that know how to do this. And the ones that can do it are incredible at what they do. But there's just not enough of them. There's not a big enough army. But from a scalable solution with technology. Having the software be near your army just makes it that much easier to bridge that gap. So I'm really investing my heart energy and time and an ability to advocate for continuing to strengthen the AI solutions that we have. And they will get better and better. As time goes on, which excites me so much. Michael Hingson 57:55 Josh, I want to thank you very much for being part of our discussion today on the accessibility gap, bridging the gap and different disabilities. Same goal because I think we've demonstrated as vividly as we can, it is the same goal, and that we all can work together. To find a solution. We just need to have the commitment and the drive to do it. We will be holding more of these webinars and we will make sure everyone is aware of it. If you have more questions or want to communicate, you're welcome to email me I'm easy to reach it's Michaelhi@accessiBe.com M I C H A E L H I at accessibe.com You can also go to my website and reach me through that Michael Hingson.com or you can go to web to accessiBe and send emails through the contact process there and they'll reach we do want to hear from you. So I want to thank you all for being here and helping us Bridge the Accessibility Gap. Michael Hingson 59:07 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com. accessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

Rafi Glantz is the Partner Success Manager for accessiBe. As Mike Hingson discusses near the beginning of this episode one of the advantages of being a podcast host while working for a company is that it is easy to find talent and interesting guests close at hand. Rafi is one of those gems listeners now get to meet. He was born in the United States, but moved to Israel when he was 18. Listen to his interesting story and learn how he became an Israeli Citizen, joined the military and then worked for companies in his newly adopted company. Rafi will take us on a journey of discovery including what brought him to accessiBe and all his adventures since joining the company. Some directories do not show full show notes. For the complete transcription please visit https://michaelhingson.com/podcast About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app. Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes Michael Hingson  00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast we're inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i  capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson  01:21 Hi, and welcome back to another episode of Unstoppable Mindset, the podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Unexpected. It's always kind of fun. Today, I want to introduce you to Refael Glantz, we call him Rafi. We call him other things, but Rafi is what will you like that? We will call you Rafi today, and Rafi is the partner Success Manager at excessive B, you know, and he is the second person from accessibility that that we have talked with on this podcast. And why? Well, yes, it has some to do with accessibility. But even more important than that, what I find interesting is that when I have the opportunity to work for an with a company that has a lot of very talented people, it's great to be able to interview everyone and talk about their talents, without having to go far afield to as a result be able to interview lots of people with lots of interesting stories. So we don't have to go search for guests too far. Because we could just look inside in our case excessively. And it isn't always about accessibility. But by the same token, sometimes it is and sometimes excessively comes up in the conversations as I'm sure it will today. But Rafi, welcome to unstoppable mindset.   Rafi Glantz  02:40 Thanks so much for having me. I'm glad to be here.   Michael Hingson  02:43 So Rafi, you I have to say that you don't really sound like you were born in Israel.   Rafi Glantz  02:50 I was. No, I'm from Detroit originally.   Michael Hingson  02:54 Yeah, there you are see? So, um, so you are from Detroit? And when did you when did you move to Israel and what what brought you to Israel.   Rafi Glantz  03:05 That's a kind of a funny story. So it's funny, it's good that you bring that up. When I was 18, or 17, really, I was finishing high school. And we're living in Philly at the time with my family. I went to university up in Bel Air in California at American Jewish University, which no longer has undergrads, which might tell you a little bit about why I ended up dropping out. And when I turned 18, I realized, okay, I can join the military now, which is really what I wanted to do. And I ended up moving to Israel getting my citizenship here. And I did about almost three years in the military here. And then when I got out, I realized that it made more sense for me to find a job in the high tech world here, then go back to the states and pursue a degree that to be totally honest, I didn't have too much interest in anymore. What kind of a degree did you want to get? Well, I went for pre med, and what they called bioethics. And I was actually a combat medic in the Army. And so I had some interaction with that stuff. But the interaction that I had, I guess helped me realize that that was not the path that was gonna, at least I thought at the time, make me really happy.   Michael Hingson  04:21 So you, you switched, how, how difficult was it to become a citizen in Israel? I asked that because, you know, there are lots of discussions about immigration and citizenship and so on here and it'd be interesting to hear a little bit about what it's like when you when you did it over there.   Rafi Glantz  04:39 For sure. So luckily for me, it's very easy for me to prove that I'm Jewish, because my dad is a cantor and now a rabbi. So he's got a very strong body of proof to show that I am in fact Jewish and Israel has a law called the right of return. So if you are Jewish and can show it that You're essentially guaranteed citizenship here. And they have a very much streamlined process. So I had my new identity documents and everything the same day I landed. Wow. Yes is much smoother than Much, much smoother than our southern border currently.   Michael Hingson  05:15 Yes. Makes it a real challenge. Well, so I'm real nosy. How old are you now?   Rafi Glantz  05:23 Oh, I'm actually just turned 28. About two weeks ago,   Michael Hingson  05:26 congrats. excited me as an interesting company. The founders were under 30, when they formed accessibly, they were part of the 30, under 30, for Forbes in 2019. And I learned that sure Heckerling, the founder, the CEO of excessive he will be turning, I think he said 32 in January. And it's interesting, it's lots of young people, which is great. And not too many of us who have been around the industry for a long period of time. But but there are advantages and disadvantages, I suppose as long as the tribal knowledge can be passed on from people who've been there, but it's really cool to be with a company, where there's a lot of vision, and a lot of enthusiasm for, for what we're doing.   Rafi Glantz  06:16 Absolutely, it's really exciting for me as well, because to come from, you know, a world where in the United States, especially where we're really taught to defer to experience and age, and that, you know, somebody who is older and more experienced in an industry definitely knows better than you. And, you know, you shouldn't necessarily go against that grain. That's very much not the culture here. And so while of course, a lot of our startups don't succeed and don't achieve the level of success that we certainly have. It's really, really inspiring to see guys who are not that much older than me. build such a behemoth, you know, and don't you wish you'd had the idea first, oh, my God so much. But unfortunately, and I'll tell you the truth, a lot of people in sales calls and stuff like that, they'll say something like, wow, this is really impressive. How did you build it? And I said, Well, to be honest, I had absolutely nothing to do with it. But I will take all the credit you're willing to give me sir, absolutely.   Michael Hingson  07:15 Makes makes perfect sense. You know, the, the issue is that it is still a team. And I think even in the US, though I'm not seeing as much as you might think of deferring to people with a lot of experience, we we tend to, I think as a as a country look down, especially the younger people look down at a lot of older people, there's a lot of age discrimination that goes on here. And it gets pretty, pretty vigorous sometimes, which is unfortunate.   Rafi Glantz  07:48 I actually, I never want I haven't lived in the States for about 10 years. So I'm a little out of date there. But I also grew up a lot of the time in a synagogue surrounded by I guess a little bit of a different approaches, right. And I went to a religious school for a lot of my early childhood. And so that was like really drilled into me that you don't argue with the rabbi's on certain things.   Michael Hingson  08:11 So while you lived in Philadelphia, did you go look at the stairs and see if you saw rocky running up and down the stairs or hearing meal? Yo, Adrian Are any of those things?   Rafi Glantz  08:20 Just I will admit that I have yo yo words real way, many times inside the museum of art as well, which let me tell you the security guards are not fans. They've heard it before and they don't want to hear it again.   Michael Hingson  08:33 Yeah, I can imagine. I can imagine they've heard it way too many times. And not too many people probably run up and down the stairs either.   Rafi Glantz  08:44 Not anymore. Maybe they used to but right now, not not too many. I've done it a couple of times. But there there are more stairs than you would think.   Michael Hingson  08:55 Yeah. Yeah. Well, and then there are those silly people who run up and down the stairs of the Empire State Building. I'm just as confused about those people as well. So it's okay.   Rafi Glantz  09:10 Yeah, listen, I'm confused about people who run marathons. If somebody tells me they ran a marathon, I said, who chased you? Like yeah, exactly what I don't understand what what was the reason? But, you know, teach there. If that's what gets here, you know, gets you up in the morning then great.   Michael Hingson  09:26 Yeah. Well, it's the same thing as football. You don't want to play this game where everybody just beats up on you. That's fine.   Rafi Glantz  09:33 Exactly. You know, there's a great SNL sketch. I love the vintage SNL sketches. And yes, the more recent ones like they're kind of hit or miss for me, but they had a very good one with Alex Rodriguez. And Charles Barkley and then they had Kenan Thompson playing a football player. And you know the baseball play rod and and Barkley are talking about wow, you know, I played for 10 years. I played for 20 and my knees or shot or this is hurting. And the football player says, I played for 10 games, and my brain doesn't work. Which we don't want to make light of CTE but it is a very serious issue that not enough people address. So I'm at least glad it's being discussed now.   Michael Hingson  10:17 Yeah. Well, and and we do need to look at more of those things. But still people like to bang their heads together. So it's, it's okay. It's a news event for me. And that's okay.   Rafi Glantz  10:31 I think it's better than rugby. At least they wear helmets. Yeah,   Michael Hingson  10:34 at least. I was in New Zealand in 2003. We were there for about two weeks. And it was during a lot of the rugby playoffs. There are two things that went on in in New Zealand at the time. One was rugby playoffs, and they certainly are very, very loud and opinionated about rugby in teams. But even more so New Zealand had just lost the America's Cup. And they were yelling, why is it that the government doesn't take over paying for our ship our yacht so that we can win? Because Oh, it was just vigorous and horrible.   Rafi Glantz  11:16 I'm glad they've got their priorities in order. Yeah, we   Michael Hingson  11:18 certainly do believe that sports are parameters and Okay, anyway. So, so tell me, you, you moved to Israel in 2018, and enjoyed the military and worked in as a medic. And so you must have lots of interesting stories. Did you ever get to see much in the way of combat? Or were you close to it or any kind of experiences around that that you want to tell?   Rafi Glantz  11:43 I saw enough. So I actually joined the military in 2011. Or actually, sorry, 2012, because it was November 18 was November 22, something like that. 2012. And then I was in there for almost three years. And for most of my service, it was honestly very boring. Most people who do military stuff will tell you it's mostly hurry up and wait. Yeah, I have a lot of very funny stories that are not appropriate. But I can tell you that in 2014, we ended up having what some people call a war, some people call an operation in Gaza. And I had the misfortune to be involved in some capacity. And I learned that that is not a career path for me that I would much rather work in high tech. And I think one funny tidbit that I will share that I think will tell a lot of people listening just one thing about our culture is that Israel is a very, very small country. So we have what's called staging areas for the military, basically, where, you know, you park all the vehicles and leave all the soldiers in a relatively protected area, so that they can be sent to a new area as needed. Now, the public knew aware a lot of these staging areas work because it's not secret. And a lot of the soldiers you know, they're 1819 20 they're gonna call their parents and say like, Hey, here I am, everything's okay. Don't worry about me. I could not tell you how many random citizens of this country showed up to staging areas all over the place, with food, blankets, coffee cigarettes, for people who smoke everything you can imagine, over the course of a two week war, I gained about 10 pounds. I think this is maybe the only military operation in history, where the majority of the soldiers actually gained weight.   Michael Hingson  13:39 But it is nice to see that the military folks are are supported. And I understand that's what's going on. You mentioned it and I'm not sure that a lot of people really understand how large is Israel.   Rafi Glantz  13:51 It's pretty small. It's about the size of New Jersey a little bit smaller. And when you take into account the West Bank and and Gaza, it's even smaller, you know, the distance between Tel Aviv and Jerusalem even though we see it on the news all the time we hear about it, the distance between Tel Aviv and Jerusalem is like 30 miles. It is not a big place. And it's a little bit funny because you'll have experienced this Mike living in California, driving 45 minutes is not a big deal, right? Driving an hour to Costco is relatively normal. Like I'd rather if there's a Costco 40 minutes away, but I'll go in Israel, if you're driving more than 20 minutes, people will look at you like what, how can you do that in the same day? How can you come back? It's so far, because it's just a completely different standard.   Michael Hingson  14:41 It's interesting, I have met people when I lived in New Jersey, we met some people who lived in Springfield, which is no more than 10 or 15 miles outside New York City. And yet, these people who were 40 and 50 years old, never had been to New York City. It really, it is amazing to see some people how confined they, they keep their world, they have never been to New York City, much less going to upstate New York or anything like that they have just been around Elizabeth and Springfield and so on, and had never been to to New York City. It's amazing. If you know, for us, as you point out here in California, we don't think anything about that, we oftentimes will drive three and 400 miles to go from one part of California to another and think, right, not too much of it. Karen and I do a little bit more thinking about it. Today, she's got a little bit of rheumatoid arthritis, so she won't drive as far at one time. But we have, and it's normal to see that. But you know, at the same time, there's a lot of value of being around home, but not going 10 or 15 miles to the to the largest city in the country. One of the one not the largest in the world, but one of the largest in the world. And seeing all that it has to offer is really a strange thought, a strange feeling.   Rafi Glantz  16:09 I couldn't agree more. And you know, what I we have a lot of what we call taboo to my life, which basically means Culture Day on Sunday. So when you're in the army, they'll take you for like a special trip on Sundays to see a historical site or to see the western wall or something like that. There's a lot of kids who live in a country the size of New Jersey who've never seen the wall or the Dome of the Rock or all of those, you know, very holy sites that Jerusalem so famous for in prison.   Michael Hingson  16:38 Yeah. And go figure and and I think it's a great loss not to visit, or at least learn about a lot of those places. I think that the people who don't do that miss so much about the rich culture of wherever they live.   Rafi Glantz  16:54 Definitely. I, like looking back, I would have liked to spend more time, you know, investigating City Hall in Philadelphia, and not just for all the relatively corrupt things that happened. Just kidding. But that'd be fun. It would necessary certainly be nice.   Michael Hingson  17:13 Yeah, it's an interesting and interesting place. And, you know, we got to deal with politics as we deal with it. So I'm still with Mark Twain. I wonder if God had been a man because he was disappointed in the monkeys. But you know, we got to do.   Rafi Glantz  17:31 That's not the most unlikely theory, I've heard to say.   Michael Hingson  17:37 So you, you went to the military, and you came out and did school and so on? And what did you do before you joined accessibility?   Rafi Glantz  17:47 Well, before I joined accessiBe, I realized that in the Israeli tech scene, you know, a person who speaks English, like I do, and has a relatively acceptable phone manner, can find employment in the high tech space. So I started working in the financial technology industry, mostly just, you know, working in the crypto field, and I went in whatever I do, my philosophy is that, you know, you should dive into it as deep as you can, and learn everything that you can about it. Because you never know, like, what's going to come in handy and how much information you'll need. And particularly in the crypto world, it's, it was such a new field at the time I'm talking, you know, 2016 2017, it was such a new field, that there really were no experts. So if you were willing to put in the time and Google things and study, you know, you were as much of an expert as anybody could find. And the problem of course, being that it's expanded so much that nobody could possibly keep up to date on everything that's going on. But that was that was sort of my first foray into the real high tech world.   Michael Hingson  18:57 So what did you do?   Rafi Glantz  18:59 Um, mostly I just did marketing and content. So I tried to connect with the communities that were behind these organizations. And I learned a little bit about how to manage marketing, but mostly it was managing people whether they were working with us on projects or whether they were doing marketing or influencer marketing or anything like that. I mostly learned how to keep my own stuff organized, and keep people on deadlines, which as you can, as you probably already know, is not the easiest thing. It's like   Michael Hingson  19:32 herding cats. Absolutely. Yes.   Rafi Glantz  19:36 So we both have cats, so   Michael Hingson  19:40 I think they weren't themselves out for the morning anyway, at least I hope so. Ours was yelling at us. Certainly Ervin has quite a down I refilled her food bowl so she's a little happier.   Rafi Glantz  19:50 Not There you go. Although I see mine just loves human food every I'm a big I love cooking that's like my Yeah, my stress relief or and every Every time I make anything with chicken, meat, fish, anything, the cat assumes it's for him. He doesn't understand that I'm not cooking for him and I've already given him. So it's, it's, it's a problem. But I always find it adorable to feed a cat pieces of cow meat, because he would never be able to get that in the wild. I can give it to,   Michael Hingson  20:21 well, ours likes her food. Although she will eat chicken. We haven't seen her eat a lot of fish. And we haven't been able to convince her to do that. So that's okay. But she she really likes her own food. But what she really loves is when she's eating, she wants to be petted. So our food dish, her food dishes up on our sink, it's a double sink with a long counter between the two sinks in the bathroom. We have to keep it up there because there are certain dogs who will probably invade the food bowl if we don't. Because he believes everything is for him. It's a laugh, he's a Labrador, but we we put the food up on the counter. But she wants to be petted while she's eating. In fact, she really likes to get rubbed all over and she'll lay down and per while she's eating, getting petted.   Rafi Glantz  21:19 That's one way to do it.   Michael Hingson  21:21 And during the during the night, at least well, I'll only let her do it one time. I told her when she started this, that she gets at one time a night. And that's it. She'll walk me until I get up in the middle of the night and feeder. So frustrating. Yeah. But, you know, animals are fun. And you know what you can't argue with all that they bring us in that we get to bring them. The fact of the matter is that all animals have personalities. And I'm sure that there are people listening to this who say I never let my cat do that. Well, you know. On the other hand, our experience unless there's some catastrophic illness is that our animals tend to live a long time. I had one guy, Doug Holland, who lived over 15 years, typically, guide dogs worked for me for 10 years or so. I've had two that didn't, but both were illness relate well, one was illness related. And one was she just really got fearful of guiding actually was my sixth dog. Marilyn, she only worked about 18 months. And then just this afraid of guiding but there were other issues with her. But even Roselle worked from 2000, I'm sorry, from 1999 to 2007. And she had for the last three years, she guided a condition known as immune mediated thrombocytopenia, which is where the platelets in the blood will be attacked by your immune system. It's something that humans get in dogs get and and eventually got to the point where she couldn't work more, but she lived for four more years. And that was okay. But we love our animals. And when we should they add so much value to us, I wish more people would take the time to really develop relationships with animals.   Rafi Glantz  23:15 Yeah, I think they, like you say they add a lot to your life. And you know, you can get your emotional validation from all kinds of different places. But in my mind, like there's nothing better than a dog because no matter what, as long as you're not abusive, and a lot of times even then that dog is going to love you and support you and be there for you until the day it dies. Yeah,   Michael Hingson  23:37 they may not trust you as well. And that's something that I talk a lot about when I when I travel and speak and talk about what guide dogs do and even the experiences of the World Trade Center. I tell people that dogs do love unconditionally, but they don't trust unconditionally. The difference. However, between dogs and humans, his dogs will generally be open to trust. I had I saw one that wasn't because she had been abused. And it took us months before we got her to trust us. But then when she did, she opened up and became a great friend for us for three years. It was in the latter part of her life. And she still lived to be 15.   Rafi Glantz  24:17 Wow. So my family has had poodles for the longest like full standard poodles and little purse dog. Yeah. And I, you know, on average, I think they're living with nine years, maybe 10. Not not quite that long. So you must you must really take care of these guys.   Michael Hingson  24:35 Yeah, every dog is a little different. We haven't had poodles, but we've had cats that lived a long time and stitch our current cat is now 12. So she'll, she'll be around quite a while yet, especially if we keep making her jump up to get her food. She's got to get around her size. We're not going to lift her up. She's tried to start to pull that one on us few times. We don't do it.   Rafi Glantz  24:59 Well, right because those cats, they'll take advantage of you. They're clever.   Michael Hingson  25:03 You think   Rafi Glantz  25:04 I met mine, he has this thing he loves knocking over glass items, doesn't care what it is if it's full of water, if it's full of juice, whatever, he will knock it right over. And the worst part is, you'll see him doing it. And I'll, I'll go, you know, I'll yell at him. However you yell at him to try and get him to stop doing something. And he will look over at me and knock it over. As he looks at me. Yeah, with no shame. No. No shame at all. Just as though it's like, oh, this is what I'm doing. This is mine. As if I as if he paid for it from IKEA. Right. You know, he doesn't understand now there's glass on the floors. He doesn't understand why I'm picking him up and trying to put him in another room. Yeah, cut his paws open.   Michael Hingson  25:53 Yeah. We haven't gotten to the point of stuffing him in a box and saying you're going to stay here for a couple of weeks, you're grounded. Work. Well, how did you come to accessiBe? How did you discover this company?   Rafi Glantz  26:09 It's actually a very funny story. So I started working at a company called Celsius network, which is in the crypto space. And people that are great, like I don't, I don't have anything negative to say about them, it just didn't really work out. And I was looking for a new role. I had some friends who worked in marketing, and they had a great marketing company called market across an inbound junction. So I spoke to them had an interview, they turned out not to be interested. And a week later, I haven't interviewed accessiBe, and I ended up getting hired. And I thought, you know, these are two totally unrelated things. Turns out market across was an early investor in excessively. So it's sort of close the loop there. And it's, I've been here for almost two and a half years now. And it has been a very, very crazy ride. You know, when I when I joined excessively, I think we had a little bit under 4000 Total customers period. And we were we just started selling in the US a few months before. And we were working out of this small office, north of Tel Aviv, it took me like an hour on a bus to get there every day there and back. And two and a half years later, we have grown just an unbelievable amount. And it's sometimes really quite surreal to see it.   Michael Hingson  27:33 It's it's an amazing company. I just learned about it literally about 12 and a half months ago, and have gotten very much involved in it and find the same sort of thing. It's an interesting ride. It's a great ride. It's it's a great company, and there are a lot of things that it's doing. So So what exactly did you start doing? And are you still doing the same thing you did? And what do you do now? Exactly?   Rafi Glantz  28:02 Ah, that's a good question. So I started out doing just regular sales, I had access to be I was one of our I guess you'd call it an account executive. And within a couple of months, it became clear that we needed somebody in the company to handle enterprise accounts. And despite not really having any specific experience doing that. The powers that be which are shared deck, LM gal pulled me into an office and said, Hey, do strategic partnerships. And I said, What's that, and they said, we'll figure it out. So there was a little bit more planning than that. But they kind of threw me into the deep end there. We built a lot of really cool partnerships with organizations like Synchro and real page and other groups whose names I won't get into right now. And from there, we realize that now we really need you know, as we grow, we need somebody who really has experience and processes and is more professional to handle that. So we brought in Darryl, who now does that and I moved over to the partner success team, which I did part time a little bit in the partner success in strategic but now I really work with our agency partners because excessively has partnerships with almost 5000 agencies in the United States and Canada. And I work with those partners to help them with essentially whatever they need accessibility wise, you know, some of them, they have a lot of technical questions that need addressing, they might not be sure how to go about making a website accessible really, and with others, there are more questions relating to how do I get my clients to want to spend money on accessibility? Because unfortunately, there are most business owners out there today. If you tell them, hey, you can make your website accessible for this and this and this, their immediate answer is, well, what happens if I don't, because I don't want to spend that money. And I don't really agree with that approach. But that is, unfortunately, their approach. So a big part of my job is arming these agency partners with the right tools and the right talk tracks and points to make and statistics that will help them explain to these business owners why accessibility makes sense, not just for their business, but also morally and legally.   Michael Hingson  30:34 So, for fun, what what's good is, what do you say? What do you say to someone? Or what would you say to someone who says, I just don't want to spend the money to make my website accessible? And I asked that, and I'll tell you why. Ask it, I'd love your thoughts on this as well, is you were well aware that over the past several months, there have been some people, and it's a relatively small number, comparatively speaking, but still, they're very vocal, who say none of this stuff works. It's not good. The companies just plain don't have good practices and so on. And the only way to do web access is to do it right from the outset, or to do it with manual coding. And I'm sure there are all sorts of other arguments that you hear, but what do you say to the person who says don't want to spend the money?   Rafi Glantz  31:24 Well, yeah, let's let's take that into points. Because I think the the don't want to spend the money is one point, and then the detractors are another, I'll address both. But let's tell because I want to spend the money. Right, so don't want to spend the money. I usually say one of two things. One is the really positive side, which is hey, 26% of American adults, according to the CDC, live with a disability, even if I cut that down to 5%, who really have trouble using websites, I know very few business owners, that wouldn't invest $50 a month to increase their market share by 5%. And to be perfectly blunt with you, sir, if you can't afford $50, for 5% more customers, your business is a bigger problem than accessibility. And I know that that sounds a little bit aggressive, but it is the case. And then I'll also mention something that you'd actually brought up in a previous, previous webinar that we did. The Nielsen data that shows that people with disabilities are the most brand loyal community, and particularly online, most businesses now are doing their best to build a supportive and positive community of customers and of users. So this is a great way to do that. And I'll also try to humanize it a little bit and say, hey, put yourself in somebody's shoes for a second, who needs to use a screen reader or Braille reader or click stick? And let's say you're looking for new shoes, right? If you go on Google, you're gonna go through 1215 websites before you even find one you can use, then by the time you do if you need shoes again, do you really think you're gonna go searching for a shoe store? No, you're gonna go back to the one that was accessible. But more than that, you're going to share it with your community. Because there are so few business owners in whatever your space is, that cater to people with disabilities, people will flock to you. And I think that that's just a general advantage of capitalism, that if you choose to stand out by being accessible, and being one of the first movers in this space, which I know, it seems like there's already a lot of activity and accessibility, but less than 2% of websites are accessible. So if you make yourself accessible, even next week, you're still one of the first movers, it sets you apart, it puts you in a new class. And it's also a great, it's a great piece of PR to put out both internally for your company culture, and externally for the world to see that you are a brand that cares about all people and takes all their money.   Michael Hingson  33:51 There you are. Well, how does how does access to be fit into that? What is it that accessibly? Does that company should take that kind of an interest in?   Rafi Glantz  34:03 That's a good question. So I'll first say that our position to my best understanding of it is that accessibility and I know this is a very San Francisco thing, say so get ready, Mike. Accessibility is more of a journey than a destination. You know, there is no such thing as 1,000% Perfect accessible website at all times, for a lot of reasons. But the real big thing is that websites change all the time. And sometimes there are things that an automated widget can't fully remediate on its own. So what we've done at accessiBe is we've created a full web accessibility hub. And we're in the process of releasing certain things now. But the big flagship product that everybody probably knows about is our automated tool, the widget, the overlay, whatever you want to call it, and that's a really big important step towards web accessibility. using that tool. You can make pretty much any website reasonably accessible. In 48 hours or less for less than $500 now depends on the size of the website, it depends on certain other factors. But that's generally the case. That being said, depending on your website structure, your needs your compliance obligations, you may want certain other things, whether that's testing by a person who actually has disabilities and can confirm that everything's working properly, or whether it's us working with you to develop best practices for your internal development, so that you can make sure that when you build new products, or you update your website, you're doing so in the most accessible way possible. To access campus, you know, we're actually creating a learning center for developers to become web accessibility developers, because I know that a lot of our marketing and conversations are about an automated solution. But we do want to empower developers to make these changes permanently. The issue is that when we looked and I say, we're not really looking for this, but when we looked, we could not find a really great comprehensive learning center for a developer to go from a JavaScript developer to an accessibility developer. And so we just made it, we're creating that we're creating access flow or creating access find, we're building this whole network so that whatever your needs are relating to accessibility, we'll be able to meet. And we're going to do our best to do that in an affordable way and an accessible way. Because we, as much as we'd love it, if everybody made accessibility, a core tenet of their business and of their approach to the web to the web, we also have to recognize that many website owners, in fact, the majority, they spend less than $1,000 a year on their entire website infrastructure. So there has to be a relatively easy and affordable way for them to achieve some modicum of compliance as well. I think   Michael Hingson  36:53 one of the important things to make sure people understand is that if you use something like excessive BS, overlay technology, it's it's AI Artificial Intelligence powered overlay, you're not suddenly saying My website is perfectly and totally accessible. But it makes a significant difference. And because of things like what you said, access flow, without going into a lot of detail about it, it will give you tools to help you determine what else needs to be done to make the website accessible in a more complete way. And that's extremely important to be able to do. You know, you have talked about I think that the right thing the the moral and ethical reasons for making your website accessible, and it's something that we should do, we don't tend to think in an inclusive way, whether it's here in the US, or in most places, although in Israel, the laws are now pretty stringent about website access, but they're not really stringent throughout the world, in that they don't absolutely mandate and require totally, that websites, for example, and apps and other things need to be accessible. And people do find ways or try to find ways to get around it in various places. Now, I don't know much about the history in Israel and what people do today. But I know we're here, even though a number of courts have said that the Americans with Disabilities Act does apply to the internet, because the ADEA does not specify brick and mortar facilities as the only places that businesses have to provide inclusion to address. But some people say well, but the ADEA was invented before the internet. And so it doesn't apply. And a couple of courts have gone along with that. So Congress needs to address it. The president needs to address it, and they haven't done that yet.   Rafi Glantz  38:58 I agree that I think one of the issues that we're dealing with that we saw and continue to see during these Facebook, or I guess now I should say meta, these Facebook hearings is that our elected officials don't seem to understand how the internet works by any stretch, and neither do judges for for the most part. I know, I know only a very few number of judges personally, but none of them are JavaScript developers, you know, none of them know how to code. It's not something that you're trained on in law school. So I think that in general, there needs to be a change in the approach to this so that there's some sort of mechanism for people to get trusted information. So they'll be able to make a reasonable decision because I do think that a lot of the decisions that have been made are being made from a place that's not as informed as it could be.   Michael Hingson  39:49 Well, I think that's true. And if you look at things like excessive BS ace audit tool, or you can go to the World Wide Web Consortium website, and Find their audit tool. There are places where you can go to say to a website, here is my website address. Tell me how accessible My website is. I think people would be really surprised. For the most part, if they found out just how inaccessible and how unintrusive most websites really are. Yeah, you know, most people   Rafi Glantz  40:23 don't think I talked to business owners and agency owners like, probably 910 12 times a day at this point. And most of them, very few of them have any hate in their heart towards people with disabilities, the real issue is that they just don't think about it. Because number one, they're busy running their business, they're, you know, chicken with their head cut off on most days anyways. But unless you have somebody in your family who has disabilities or in your community that you're close to that you work with on a regular basis or something, for most people, it's just not top of the mind. Now, not saying that should be the case by any stretch. But it's, it's a challenge for us that we need to make this more visible, for lack of a better word.   Michael Hingson  41:05 Absolutely. And, you know, the reality is that there are some who say, I'm just not going to spend any money, I can't afford to do it. But again, it's a mindset shift, if they looked at it, as you said, that is, think of all the business that you can get by making your website accessible. I think anyone who has any insight into the business concepts of the world would agree that it makes perfect sense to make your website accessible. And then when you bring things into it, like access fine, and maybe you want to explain a little bit about what that is, but access fine, also, can help make a difference for people.   Rafi Glantz  41:45 Yeah, access fine, is I talk about it on my calls a lot, because it's a huge opportunity for a business owner. So access find is the world's first search engine that is only going to display accessible results. So only accessible websites, and everybody who uses accessibility is pretty much going to be on there. So what I like to say is that if you're everybody does SEO now, right? Everybody wants to optimize their search results and get found on the internet. Well, if you're doing SEO on Google, you're competing with every other shoe store, every other hockey rink, whatever it is in the world, and certainly everyone in your area, if you're on access, find you're competing with like five other people, because nobody's accessible yet. So as frustrating as that is, it's a huge opportunity for the early movers to establish themselves.   Michael Hingson  42:33 And I want to make it clear as that access find is not just accessibly. That is it is the intent is for it to be website remediation process agnostic, as long as you are working to make your website accessible, it doesn't matter what tool you use, so long as you do it. Because the reality is, when it comes down to it, there are two things that go into making a website accessible. One is the code that somehow gets inserted somewhere that does things like label images, or label buttons and define links and so on, tells you that you have a shopping cart. And so that's that's one. But the other is specifically looking at what you do to make that website usable. And a lot of it has to do with labeling. But it also has to do sometimes with layout and other things like that. And so the issue is it doesn't matter what tool you use. But however you do it, the fact is that the evidence of you doing it is visible to audit tools that look for it. And it's visible to people who who know how to look for it. And that's what you really want to get to.   Rafi Glantz  43:56 Yeah, I mean, I, we don't care how you become accessible. If people can use your website. That's awesome. And we want to put that on access fine. And like access find is not solely an accessible thing. It's a nonprofit. And we're in partnership with the Christopher Reeve Foundation and with the Viscardi Center, and a whole bunch of other really awesome organizations that believe in the same goal that we do that whether you choose to work with us or anybody else. The goal here is accessibility. And that's actually, you know, we did this ad that I got a lot of Facebook messages from my mom's friends about this ad that we ran a national ad campaign in the US which you know all about Mike the Unstopables. And the reason the the purpose of this was not so much to sell excessively, but to sell the idea of accessibility, because like Like we said before, so few people are really aware of this at all. And of those people very, very few have it at the top of their mind.   Michael Hingson  44:55 Diversity is a term has really gone away from dealing with disabilities and I will make that argument all day. We talk about diversity when we're dealing with sexual orientation, race, and gender and so on. But disabilities don't get included in that, which is why I prefer to use the term inclusive, because either you are or you aren't. And if you're leaving anyone out, then you're not inclusive. And it's as simple as that. The fact is, as you pointed out, 20 to 26% of all people in this country and mostly throughout the world, have some sort of disability, how often were we discussed or talked about, or issues that we face brought up during last year's presidential campaign in this country? And how often are those kinds of things considered today, and it's just reality is not much.   Rafi Glantz  45:47 Yeah, and it's a real shame, because there's a massive missed opportunity, I think, you'll probably know the number better than me. But there's close to $500 billion a year in disposable income in the community. And most people are just choosing not to tap into it for some reason. It, it doesn't make sense, particularly now, in a time when we have inflation, we have supply chain problems, we have all of this stuff, and people are scrambling to find customers, you would think that they would want to access the market that's right in front of them.   Michael Hingson  46:18 One of the things that it isn't directly related to web access, but one of the issues that we face as blind people is that the cost for assistive technology, the technology that at least hopefully and does somewhat level, the playing field for us, is expensive screen readers, the software that makes computers talk and describe or verbalize what comes across the screen tools to produce Braille and so on cost money. The National Federation of the Blind has worked with Congress to get introduced into Congress the accessibility assistive technology affordability Act, which calls for a tax credit for people who purchase assistive technology to help us offset some of those costs, yet, and it was actually put into the buyback better program of Congress and Joe Biden. But it's now been dropped as they've been weeding out some of the the programs that people are debating over whether they want to include or not, that is extremely unfortunate that they would that that would even happen, because it's pretty universal thing that for us to be able to do the same things that you do, there are going to be some costs, because we have made our universe some site oriented, that we leave people out. And we've we've done that in various other ways. But even I think I could make a strong case, to a degree more with blindness than than anything else. We think that eyesight is the only game in town. And we don't tend to think about the fact that some of this technology costs, we're not saying pay for it, but give us some tax credits to help us offset some of the costs. And so there's a push right now to get that put back into the bill. But you know, we don't tend to think about people with disabilities in general. One of my favorite examples, is we watch the view everyday, Karen watches it. Now, last month was national employment, or National Disability Employment Awareness Month. I didn't hear actually, except for one time, any disability mentioned on the view in the whole month of October, and that time wasn't even relating to employment or disability awareness, other than saying how inspirational it was that a couple of people with Down syndrome were doing something. It's not inspiration, we need its recognition and understanding and a raising of expectations about society. Absolutely.   Rafi Glantz  48:54 And there's just not enough representation. For all the reasons that you point out there just isn't. I think, what was Senator Tammy Duckworth? I think she's one of the first if not the first woman with disabilities in the Senate. And I mean, she, I could not think of a more heroic story. I mean, she was a combat helicopter pilot, if I'm if I'm remembering this correctly, who was wounded in combat, and ended up becoming a United States Senator. I mean, I could not think of something that would be more appropriate to teach kids, but you rarely hear about that today. The news stories that we hear about are so much, so much less interesting and so much more depressing.   Michael Hingson  49:37 What's interesting is that she isn't the first to have a disability and be in the Senate or the House, and specifically one of our previous podcast guests, a lady named Peggy Chung, who is also known as the blind history lady, talked about the fact that before 1940, there had been three blind people in the house and to whom served in the Senate. But since then, not one single blind person has been in either house, which is kind of interesting. But really, we've gone backwards, we have gone backwards. And she makes that point during the podcast. So if people haven't heard that it's a fascinating one to go listen to. She's got some great stories. She even talks about the fact that the typewriter was originally invented for a blind person. It's a great story, you should go find it. It's, it's, it's in, in the the podcast, and   Rafi Glantz  50:29 I heard that clip on your LinkedIn, you saw that? Yeah.   Michael Hingson  50:33 Good for you. I appreciate you looking. But it's a fascinating story. And the reality is that so many people could make contributions to society, but we tend not to recognize or lose out on getting what they can offer, because we operate in the assumption that there's only one way to do things.   Rafi Glantz  50:55 Yeah. I mean, one of the things that you said initially, is something that I quote you on, I do attribute it, don't worry. But in my in my call, because I'll bring up you know, Michael Hanson, and everything. And I'll say, well, now he's our chief vision officer. But as he says, You don't need sight to be a visionary. And you know, it gets a chuckle. But it's also true, you really don't. And one of the very few experiences that I've had, that sort of, certainly not put me in your shoes, but let me feel a little bit of what it might be like, was, there's this restaurant in Tel Aviv and Jaffa, and I forget what it's called, but they put everything in complete darkness. So for about two and a half hours, you're eating, drinking being served everything, mostly by people who have disabilities, both deafness and blindness, as if you're part of that community. And initially, it was very disconcerting. And I did make sure not to wear a white shirt, of course. But it was, for lack of a better word, very eye opening.   Michael Hingson  52:00 The only problem with that, and a lot of us express this concern is if you go away from that having had challenges and you think that's how it is for for people who are blind, you're missing the point. Because the fact is just like for people who can see you learn techniques to do the things that you learn, the fact is that I'd be glad to go to that same restaurant with you and laugh at you while you're having a problem. Because I don't have that problem. Because I've learned techniques. And so there was an organization several years ago that created a website, and was called how I see it, or that's how eye see it the is Eye. And they asked their members to put up on the website, videos of themselves being blindfolded, trying to accomplish tasks. And the whole intent of it was to say see how difficult it is to do this if you're blind. And the reality is, they were so wrong by doing that. And what actually occurred was that blind people discovered it and started putting up our own videos on the same website, saying See how easy it is if you learn and actually overwhelmed the site, and eventually was taken down. And eventually there were some discussions. But it was an organization that has to do with eyesight, and blindness and so on. And they missed the whole point. The reality is that, that it's not the blindness or the eyesight. It's how you learn to deal with it. Most sighted people don't learn to be very observant, by comparison to say, a Navy Seal or someone in the military or people who learn to use their eyes or their ears extremely well. And people who truly learn to understand their senses recognize that, that in fact, there's more than one way to do things. And it isn't always about one particular sense. Absolutely.   Rafi Glantz  53:56 I think a great example of that is actually one of the guys who helped create accessories, initial solution a dt. So he's a friend of sheers. I'm imagining you might have even had the chance to meet him.   Michael Hingson  54:08 I haven't met I know about it, but I haven't met him yet.   Rafi Glantz  54:11 Okay, so get excited. But he is a really nice guy. He came in and showed us a presentation. But what really impressed me was that this guy, not only does this screen reader talk about two and a half times my normal speaking speed, and my speed is not slow. He's also listening to music and also coding while he's having everything read to him and everything. That is very impressive, regardless of any kind of ability or disability. Like I don't think that I would be able to do that. Without like you say without a lot of practice. And there are absolutely strategies and stuff that you would learn to to help you do it. But for someone like me, it's still impressive.   Michael Hingson  54:54 So I have a couple of other things. One is I want to get back To the whole issue of access, and so on, we talked all about the moral aspect of it. But the reality is there is a legal aspect of it, and what do you what do you say to people? Or let me let me combine both of them together, there have been criticisms that that people say is bad marketing to say that you shouldn't make your website accessible just because somebody might sue you. And creating that level of fear. When in reality, it does happen, and it can happen. But what do you say to people about that? And how do you deal with the people who plain say, that's wrong to even say?   Rafi Glantz  55:38 So it's an important point to bring up? And I think that number one, it's in arguable that this is a real problem. Now, could you argue it in court? Sure, you can argue whatever you want in court. But as you know, the American legal system is not 100% perfect all the time for everyone to say the least. So there is a lot of case law to show that you do need to be accessible. The real problem that we face today is the demand letter problem. And it's a lot more of a murky issue than the full on lawsuits. Because the people who send lawsuits, in my experience, much of the time, these are actually well intentioned people who actually have tested this site, they want to use the website and they can't. The demand letters, on the other hand, are coming from a relatively small number of law firms that have identified this as a great way for them to make money making settlements. And unfortunately, in our, in my opinion, particular, that tends to paint the community of people with disabilities in a very negative light. Because in my experience that I believe also in yours, your first instinct when something is not perfect, or as expected is not to sue the pants off of somebody, you're going to engage in a dialogue with them and try to get them to understand why this is something important. So when people tell me, Hey, I don't really believe I'm going to get sued. Sometimes I'll be a little bit rude and just say, Okay, wait. But what I usually will respond with is a story that actually happened to me. So about two years ago, I was in Las Vegas, right before Corona started speaking about web accessibility, and somebody interrupted me about halfway through the presentation, right when I was talking about the legalities, and he claims to own 60 locations of a payday loan company. Now, I won't defend payday loan companies, I don't understand how 3,000% interest is legal in the United States of America, that's a different conversation. But he claims to own 60 locations, and he got a demand letter from some attorney asking for $10,000 Because his website wasn't accessible. Now, this guy's never heard of accessibility before, which is puts him in the same boat as the vast majority of business owners in the United States. So he calls us lawyer and asked the Hey, what's up with what's going on? And the lawyer explains, well, listen, it's you, we shouldn't really fight this. Because if I take this to court and fight it for you, you're going to pay me $100,000. In legal fees, it's going to take like a year and a half. And we'll probably still lose, because you're not accessible. Like you haven't done any work to your website, you don't have any grounds. So he said, Okay, he wrote a check. And he started looking into how to make the rest of his websites accessible. The problem is, and this speaks a lot to the nature of many of these complaints. The day his check cleared, he got 59 more letters and had to settle for $600,000. And as much as I disagree with the business that he's in, I appreciate him having the courage to come forward and speak about it. Because this happens a lot more frequently than we realize, because most business owners who have something like this happen to them, they're not going to speak up about it, they're going to be as quiet as possible, because they don't want to get sued again, and they don't want to cast their business and themselves in a negative light.   Michael Hingson  58:49 The other part about that, though, is that his lawyer wasn't up on it enough to understand that maybe there are ways to address the issue either. Very true. I know, excessively, has interacted with a number of companies, I'm sure you've got stories about this companies that say, Hey, I'm being threatened with a lawsuit. Can you help us and that what accessiblity has done as helped in two ways. One, it's offered its its products, and when that's put on the site, that greatly mitigates a lot of the accessibility issues by just using the overlay not totally, but that it helps. And the other thing that excessive B will do is then show with its its own documentation that it creates case by case. Exactly how the, the website has become accessible. And that in fact, the the lawsuit is not justifiable. Yeah,   Rafi Glantz  59:50 I mean, I don't know the exact number anymore, but I don't even close to it. But it's it's literally in the 1000s of people who have come to us with papers already served and all Almost all those cases, we've managed to make the whole thing go away. We've never had a client successfully sued due to using our tool. And I will also say that having access to be on your website has despite what whatever detractors might want to say, which, you know, they're welcome to say whatever they want. But having accessiBe on your website has become a lot like having the ADT flag on your lawn. You know, people see that flag and realize you have a good security system. And they're a lot more likely to move on to the next victim than test it out. And we've seen that play out quite a bit in recent months.   Michael Hingson  1:00:34 What do you say to the people in there have been consumers who say that we're just not doing things the right way?   Rafi Glantz  1:00:42 I say what I said before, which is it's a journey, it's not a destination, you know, there is no one stop perfect, immediate solution for accessibility? Because it really depends on the website, it depends on how often you're updating it. What industry are you in, you know, medical, and housing have different requirements in many cases than other e commerce stores. But a real the best approach to accessibility, I think, is a comprehensive one that comes at it from multiple angles. So yeah, you want to have best practices. When you're building a website, you want to have all of the alt text and Aria labels and features on there. You also want to have an overlay widget because as you know, Mike, not everybody who's colorblind is colorblind the same way, right. So if you pick like a couple of colors to use on your website, no matter what colors you choose, they're not accessible to everybody. So I think that there's a layered approach to accessibility that can include both best practices, manual remediation after the fact and automated remediation as well, to give you the most complete picture.   Michael Hingson  1:01:48 And that's really as good as it gets that it is a journey, you know, always will be a journey. There are people who rightly say the only true real way to create an inclusive or accessible website or anything accessible is to do it right from the outset. And that's, that's, that's absolutely valid. But that means that WordPress has to build such stringent tools into its system, that any website that's created or any, any system that's created through WordPress has to be accessible before it could be released. Microsoft has to fully include accessibility in everything that it does, right from the outset, not making it an afterthought. Apple needs to do the same thing. But Apple also needs to because it has all these apps that come out of the App Store, Apple needs to mandate a basic level of accessibility that apps beat. And I have not seen that Apple requires that today. So you can create and people create all the time apps that aren't accessible. Nice, I put it that way. Because Apple, in fact, has built a level of accessibility into its products. It's it is made screen readers. And in Apple's case, it's called VoiceOver, it has made a screen reader, a part of the technology that it produces on all Macs is on on iPhones, it's on iPads. They've made their websites pretty usable. But they don't mandate the same thing about the people who come to the App Store and require that abs that websites are excuse me, apps are fully accessible, or at least accessible to the point where they can be and I understand that there are times that websites or apps are going to display videos, or let's not use videos, but images or maps that we don't know how to verbalize yet automatically, but people do need to address those issues. And we're not doing that yet.   Rafi Glantz  1:03:59 Right. And I think there's a really important point that you brought up there that there is some responsibility that lies with these big giant tech companies like WordPress, like Wix, you know, whatever name name a giant company, because, well, it's all well and good to talk about America and say, hey, you know, we need to build accessible websites. But in the developing world around the world, there are there's even less attention being paid to accessibility a lot of the time and even less budget. And that being the case, the only realistic way that many of these websites can be accessible is by these giant providers mandating and providing tools for that to be possible. Because again, I mentioned that, you know, most companies in the United States pay less than $1,000 a year for their whole website. Worldwide. That number is divided significantly. You know, there's a lot of people who pay even less and we're very proud to be able to offer our automated solution which is an important component like we said Have a layered approach to accessibility at less than 500 bucks a year. But I think you'll agree it's hard to convince someone to spend 500 on accessibility if they spent 200. On the website, you know?   Michael Hingson  1:05:11 Sure. Well, and but the reality is, again, the issue isn't mandated that somebody do it. The role modeling really has to be done by those who develop the basic technology. And so those who create WordPress design tools, WordPress that creates its design tools, or Microsoft should have the absolute best screen reader built into its technology right from the outset, and it and it doesn't. Google is the same way any of them, it isn't mandating that somebody else do it. It really needs to start with them. They really need to build in absolut

Sergio E. Sanchez, DDSAssistant Professor, AEGD Program Director, Craniofacial Sciences, University of Connecticut, School of Dental MedicineDr. Sergio Sanchez was born and raised in Peru. He received his Dental Degree from Universidad Peruana Cayetano Heredia School of Dentistry in 2004. After dental school, Dr. Sanchez completed a Diplomaed certification in Dental Esthetics from the School of Peruvian Dentistry. In 2008, he joined the Advanced Education in General Dentistry (AEGD) residency program at the University of Connecticut (UConn) School of Dental Medicine, where he completed two years of residency with an additional AEGD Fellowship. Immediately following his residency, Dr. Sergio Sanchez became a clinical instructor for the AEGD program at UConn School of Dental Medicine. Part of his responsibilities was serving as a dental provider at Health Care Community Centers. In 2016, he was promoted to Assistant Professor and Program Director of the AEGD residency program.As Program Director of the AEGD residency program, Dr. Sanchez has many administrative responsibilities, including providing clinical supervision and didactic courses for over 30 residents per year. Part of his duties also includes managing the dental Emergency Services offered at UConn School of Dental Medicine and John Dempsey Hospital. Additionally, he is responsible for providing care to patients with acquired and developmental disabilities in the Operating Room at the John Dempsey Hospital. Also, Dr. Sanchez joined a private practice in Torrington, CT, in 2021 as an Associate Dentist.Dr. Sanchez has helped move UConn School of Dental Medicine into the forefront of Digital Dentistry and 3D printing. He has also participated in several publications and poster presentations, including being part of a presentation where he discussed "Digital Dentistry and its application to Conservative tooth preparation" at the ADEA in 2019. He has also received an award from John Dempsey Hospital for the Hospital Medical Staff Award of Excellence in 2019.Outside of dentistry, Dr. Sanchez loves to spend time with this wife and two children. He enjoys traveling, bike riding, and paddle boarding with his children and lovely wife.https://www.instagram.com/sergioesanchezdds/https://www.linkedin.com/in/sergio-sánchez-velasco-937b905a/EPISODE 21 SPONSOR AD:Promethean Dental Systemshttps://www.prometheandentalsystems.com/international-student-program Discount code TID2021 for 10% off PDS Full 5-day Course for International Dentists--------------------------More Information about this and many other podcast at:www.theinternationaldentist.comLinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/drgabrielalagrecaFB & IG @theinternationaldentist 

Participation in labor unions is less than half of what it was 40 years ago. It has seen an uptick in the service sector, but a sharp decline in manufacturing. According to economist Heidi Shierholz decline in union rolls is partly responsible for today's yawning income inequality gap. Recently we've seen the formation of a modest union at Google and a movement among Amazon workers. We've also seen how the pandemic has shone a bright light on the fragility of our nation's workforce struggling to survive at the bottom rungs of the pay scale. Joining me to speak about these issues is Kathryn Van Deusen Hatfield, a senior managing partner at Hatfield Schwartz Law Group in New Jersey.  Kathy represents private and public sector employers in all aspects of labor and employment law, with expertise in litigating state and federal cases on behalf of employers involving Title VII, the ADA, the ADEA and the New Jersey Law Against Discrimination, and providing legal opinions and advice on personnel, employment and labor issues.  Kathy shares her insights on recent developments in the labor movement, some of the causes of its decline, how unions get a bad rap, and how, even though she represents management, she believes unions can be a good thing for everyone -- employees and companies alike. This podcast is the audio companion to the Journal on Emerging Issues in Litigation, a collaborative project between HB Litigation Conferences and the Fastcase legal research family, which includes Full Court Press, Law Street Media, Docket Alarm and, most recently, Judicata. If you have comments or wish to participate in one our projects, or want to tell me how insightful and informative David and Dan are, please drop me a note at Editor@LitigationConferences.com.I hope you enjoy the interview, and how I managed to demonstrate how little I know about sports. I feel made up for it by learning something about baseball Hall of Famer Jim Rice, who did something really cool and heroic in 1982.  

Alexander's half-sister Cynane becomes the first member of the Argead Dynasty to perish following the death of her brother in Babylon two years earlier. To prevent a mutiny within the Macedonian Army, Perdiccas marries Cynane's daughter Adea to her half-uncle, King Philip III. In the aftermath of Cynane's death, the regency collapses as Antigonus the One-Eyed informs Antipater of Perdiccas' plans to set aside his daughter Nicaea to marry Alexander's sister Cleopatra. Outraged by this insult, and believing the Regent is setting up a play to crown himself as King, Antipater and his son-in-law Craterus vow to throw Perdiccas out of power.  Meanwhile, Alexander's body makes its way from Babylon to Asia Minor, in preparation for Perdiccas' plans to bury the King in Macedon and possibly lay claim to the throne. In Syria however, troops under Ptolemy's command hijack the funeral procession and divert the body to Egypt. The First War of the Diadochi has begun.

This episode is about the impact of employment laws on the NBA's decisions about older head coaches if (and when) the league resumes play in Orlando. There has been some discussion over the last few weeks about the NBA possibly banning coaches like Mike D'Antonio and Gregg Popovich from the bench, based on the way COVID-19 has impacted older populations. Mike discusses the two main employment laws the NBA needs to think about: the ADEA (age discrimination), and the ADA (disability discrimination).  The guest for this episode is Philip Berkowitz, a Shareholder at Littler Mendelson, a national employment defense firm.  (3:20) Berkowitz explains why the NBA can look back to an international battery company for guidance (4:39) What would Berkowitz do if he was the NBA's General Counsel? (5:30) Is it a good idea for the NBA to make older head coaches wear masks? (6:33) Mike explains why recent EEOC guidance makes it extremely difficult for the NBA to exclude any individual employee. (9:35) Why shouldn't the NBA just make every worker sign a waiver? The Mike Meltser Podcast is brought to you by Alamo Remedy CBD.  Website: http://www.alamoremedy.com/ Promo code: MIKEM Music Credit:  Slow Burn by Kevin MacLeod Link: https://incompetech.filmmusic.io/song/4372-slow-burn License: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/