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If you think you know all there is to know about being hospitable listen to our guest, Quentin McElveen and then decide. Quentin grew up in South Carolina and has studied the idea of Southern Hospitality for most of his life. He was serious enough about it that he went to college to study and earn a degree in Hospitality Management. Quentin then worked in the hotel industry securing a variety of jobs in both the front of the house where he interacted with the public and the back of the house where he spent more time dealing with staff, processes and working with the behind-the-scenes system. He feels his time in the hotel and hospitality industry has made him a better person and a much better leader. He discuss with me at length various issues and concepts of what it means to be a leader. I am sure some of you will value much what Quentin has to say on this score. During Covid Quentin transitioned out of the hotel industry and now works in the healthcare field as a “customer experience manager”. His ultimate goal is to get back into the hotel world and eventually own and operate his own hotel. About the Guest: Quentin, a native of South Carolina, has been immersed in the values of southern hospitality since childhood. This philosophy has been reflected in his personal and professional life, driving his interests as a business professional and shaping his character. He holds a Bachelor of Science in Hospitality Management from the University of South Carolina, where he chartered the National Society of Minorities in Society USC chapter and held leadership roles in other organizations. With over a decade of experience in the hospitality industry, Quentin has served in different capacities, including Assistant General Manager, Director of Operations, and Front Office Manager for diverse hotel brands. He has a proven track record of improving guest satisfaction scores, turning around underperforming hotel operations, and exceeding quality and performance management objectives. As he advances in his career, Quentin is passionate about professional development, coaching others, and leading successful teams. He is committed to leveraging his leadership and training skills to make a significant impact in the hospitality industry. Through his diverse professional background, he has gained valuable insights and knowledge from various industries, which he has effectively utilized to strengthen and improve his leadership abilities. This multifaceted approach has allowed him to develop a unique perspective and skillset, ultimately making him a more well-rounded and effective leader. Despite the challenges that come with pursuing dreams, Quentin always encourages others to think big and embrace their aspirations. His ultimate goal is to become an owner of hotels, a dream that motivates him to learn more about hotel operations continually. If you would like to connect with Quentin, he would be delighted to receive an invitation on LinkedIn. Ways to connect with Quintin: Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/quentinmcelveen/ About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app. Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Hi, there I am your host, Mike Hingson. Or Michael Hingson, if you prefer and I'd like to welcome you to unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. And I bet our guest today Quenton McElveen can talk all about the unexpected. He talks a lot about hospitality, southern hospitality. And of course, the South is supposed to be known for southern hospitality. So we want to get into that, needless to say and learn about it. But that will come as we go forward. But for now, Quentin, I'd like to thank you for being here. And welcome to unstoppable mindset was   Quenton McElveen ** 01:56 a pleasure to be here. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate this opportunity. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 02:00 this will be fun. I'm looking forward to it. Tell me a little bit about kind of the younger Quentin growing up and what what life was like as a kid and all that sort of stuff. It's always great to start at the beginning.   Quenton McElveen ** 02:14 So I grew up in South Carolina in a two parent household. I was at a strong Christian background. I was one of the kids that couldn't listen to anything but but gospel music I got in trouble if I tried to listen to something else. I grew up around a lot of a lot of family oriented activities and outings and a lot of my childhood we did a lot of traveling. So I believe that's why I became so interested in hotels. We stayed at hotels, I live on the east coast. I spent a lot of time with Florida. The beaches of South Carolina like Myrtle Beach, had a good childhood, very good childhood.   Michael Hingson ** 02:57 So you went to school in high school and so on. Did you go on to college?   Quenton McElveen ** 03:01 Yes. I went to the University of South Carolina in Columbia, and had a wonderful college tenure while I was there at a very good time. They're majoring in Hospitality Management course. I'm telling you, man,   Michael Hingson ** 03:21 of course. So with all the traveling that you've done, what's your favorite hotel?   Quenton McElveen ** 03:28 When I was younger? My favorite hotel was Embassy Suites. I love to go there. Yeah, I love there. How large the rooms were being looted kid. I like to jump across the bed from one to the other. And the breakfast buffet. I always loved that like the um, so as an adult, I like the Hilton brand building brand hotels. Yeah. I have a credit card.   Michael Hingson ** 03:59 I don't have a Hilton credit card. But I love when I can to stay at Hilton Hotels. And I still love Embassy Suites. I've always been welcomed pretty well there. And it's good to still follow the Hilton. Yeah. Well, it's all part of Hilton. And but so I enjoyed it and I still enjoy the breakfast. They they do a good job with that. And I've even I've even spent time at the manager's reception not being a big drinker. But the snacks are good and occasionally but a drink but I love just the hospitality Embassy Suites. I agree with you. It's it's a great hotel and a great brand. Alright. So you worked at the well at the university and you you charted an organization there, didn't you if I recall? Yeah,   Quenton McElveen ** 04:52 the organization that I reached out there is called the National Society of Minorities. in hospitality. And so that organization was something that we really needed on campus at the time. And it it started a lot of engagement with different students on campus. And it allowed us to travel to Atlanta, to the National Conference twice. While I was there, we traveled to Indianapolis to a national conference got us a lot of exposure with different professionals and students across the parts of the US that had the same issues we had. Well, and I went on further than it. I'm sorry, go ahead. I went on further than that, and joined the National Board of the entire organization. So I went from chapter president to the national program. So right there there. I have got a lot of exposure, do a lot of networking, with industry professionals.   Michael Hingson ** 05:54 So are you still in the hospitality industry today?   Quenton McElveen ** 05:58 Well, I'm not not officially in the hotel industry. But right now, I am a guest services Coach and Trainer, which sounds like hospitality. But it truly is hospitality. But it's not an end to hotel. Industry. Is it your own company? Is not my own company. I work for healthcare company. Okay.   Michael Hingson ** 06:19 Well, we will, we will get to that. Yeah, I know that. That's a little bit of a switch, though, although you can certainly justify it under hospitality, I suppose. And that brings up the question, what is hospitality? Hospitality   Quenton McElveen ** 06:33 is really a feeling that you give to someone else is really a feeling that someone's feels warm and comfortable. And they feel welcomed. Hospitality is a feeling so I'm satisfied. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 06:50 Well, if you don't have it, you, you should I think it's a fair thing to say being hospitable and, and making people feel welcome is something that I, I enjoy. And I've had the opportunity to do it for lots of podcast episodes now. But I've always enjoyed it. And it's, it seems to me that, collectively in this country, we're losing some of the art of hospitality because we can't talk to people. We can't have discussions. We're so fractured. Do you? Do you find that to be the case?   Quenton McElveen ** 07:26 Yeah, I agree. As great as social media and technology we have today is it really it took away the personal interaction that we have we once had before, the advancement that we have with cell phones and the internet. Because we don't have to talk to one another in person anymore. We can do it on the screen.   Michael Hingson ** 07:48 I have heard people say many times that they've been on trips with their kids and their kids are in the back of the car. And they're texting back and forth. And I've never understood why. And I asked somebody once, and they said, because they want to talk about things that they don't want their parents to know. And I'm sitting there going, that is so scary. You know,   Quenton McElveen ** 08:10 it seems like it shouldn't be the other way around. It seemed like texting would have came first. And then eventually when it came out later, oh, you can actually talk to someone now. But it was backwards. Yeah. Wow. Okay.   Michael Hingson ** 08:22 Yeah. And, but and you lose some of the art and some of the nuances of personal context that it would be really important, it seems to me to have That's right. So how, in your way, you went to college, you got a degree? Did you get a bachelor's? Did you go on and get a masters or just a bachelor's?   Quenton McElveen ** 08:45 I got a bachelor's degree, and okay, great to work after that   Michael Hingson ** 08:48 trying to work? How do you teach people hospitality? I'm assuming that when you hire people in a hotel environment, you want to try to get people who are going to be able to be welcoming and so on. But at the same time, isn't it something that sometimes you have to teach the art or help people improve in their hospitality efforts?   Quenton McElveen ** 09:10 When any hiring role that I've had as a full time manager in whatever capacity I was in at the time, I hired for personality, so they had to be already hospitable and coachable in the interview, and what what they were taught was the skills to complete the job, because you can have you can teach someone skill, but it's very difficult to teach hospitality. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 09:37 It is a it's a real challenge to do that. Because as you said, it's a feeling. It's an attitude. It's a mindset, and it's something that people have to develop. I love going to airports. Speaking of hospitality, and whenever I get to a TSA agent, you know when we get to the kiosk or to the counter or not well, though The desk and all that. The first thing they say is, can I have your boarding pass and your ID and I give them my boarding pass? And well, can I have your ID? And of course, what I say is, what's wrong? Did you lose yours? And they mostly do laugh. Or I say, Why do you need my ID? Don't I look like me? You know, I just, it is it is a thankless job. And even at hotels and so on, I love to try to get people to laugh. I think it's one of the things that I've learned to do over the years from probably doing radio, in college and other things. But I think it's so important that we try to make people feel at ease. And of course, there are a lot of people who are uncomfortable around a blind person. And there are people who are uncomfortable about people of other races. And so anything we can do to deal with, that is always worth doing, it seems to me,   Quenton McElveen ** 10:54 that's good to hear how you, you find a way to connect with someone by using humor. I do that quite often, almost every day on the job. And with strangers that I meet. I think there's humor and everything. And it bridges the gap between, like you said different different races. And it's an easy way for me to input hospitality, but humor by using humor, because oftentimes we go to businesses and restaurants, retail stores are just places where you feel like a transaction, like you walk in, they just want to give you what you want and get you out of there. You don't feel like they really care. You know, that number was like a robotic transaction. And I don't like that. So anytime I interact with someone or my current job or anywhere, I want to make sure they feel valued. How do you do   Michael Hingson ** 11:48 that? Can you tell me a story of where you had to do that once or where you decided to do it once?   Quenton McElveen ** 11:55 Sure, I do it quite easily. The easy target for me being in the south is football. I live in. I live in South Carolina. So the two top teams of discussion are University of South Carolina and Clemson. So usually when you talk to someone, you ask them, okay, Which team do you like? And if it's the Carolina person, I just sparked up friendship. If it's a Clemson person, it's a friendly rivalry that we can joke with back and forth. Yes, that's what I do very often. And being here to south. Well, yeah, go ahead. If they're not a college fan, we can quickly move to the NFL, you know, a sports fan. like to talk about their, you know, what they have on or their name. I find different clever ways to, to interact with people.   Michael Hingson ** 12:43 Let's get real serious here, though. So that works great for South Carolina. But what do you do when you get somebody from UNC North Carolina State or Duke? Who comes to visit?   Quenton McElveen ** 12:55 Just checking. We just, we just shift the basketball? Yeah, that's something I've done. Yeah, if you shoot the basketball, and if you're a UNC fan, and you may be casual, you don't really know what's going on. We could talk about the older the older days with Michael Jordan, or move forward. Vince Carter, and we can talk about those days. So   Michael Hingson ** 13:15 yeah, no, I understand. I remember going to a speaking event.   Quenton McElveen ** 13:22 At Oh, well,   Michael Hingson ** 13:25 I, it was somewhere right around Raleigh Durham. And I landed, got to the hotel, and I was gonna just order room service and eat in my room and watch a little bit of TV, which seems innocent enough. It was March, which gives you a clue. I hadn't even thought about it. And I was going to actually watch a TV show that used to be on CBS called without a trace. And I turned the TV on was his getting ready to order. And suddenly the announcer comes out and says the television shows normally broadcast at this time without a trace and whatever, are not going to be shown today because we're going to bring you the UNC North Carolina State basketball game that decides who goes to the championship. And you can watch without a trace at 1:02pm on Sunday morning. Yeah, who's gonna be up there watching that? But, you know, they, they really did take it seriously. It was it was fun. And so I I've watched enough to learn to get into the discussions, but I've been in several situations where sports is ruled what you do. I've had a couple of speaking engagements where I was told you have to end by a certain time so that we can end this event by a certain time, like once in Kentucky, because it was the final two for March Madness and the Wildcats were one of the two teams and they said this all ends at 630 Because by 630 One, this gym, it was in a gymnasium totally full, this gym will be totally empty by 631. And you know what it was? It was I'd never seen people get out so fast. Wow. But you know what? We know what their priority. That's right. We know what their priorities are. It was kind of fun. But I agree, I think humor is, is is an important thing. And it doesn't need to be humor that puts anyone down or anything, right? There's so many ways to make people feel more welcome. And I wish we could really all learn more of that. And even with serious discussions, like nowadays, you can't really talk to anybody about politics. And you can't because everyone takes it so seriously, we become so fractured, you know. But as I put, as I love to tell people, we don't do that on top of mindset, we don't talk about politics. But if we were to I would point out that I'm an equal opportunity abuser. So it doesn't really matter. It doesn't matter. I'm an equal opportunity abuser. I'm with Mark Twain Congress was that Grandal benevolent asylum for the helpless?   Quenton McElveen ** 16:13 So okay.   Michael Hingson ** 16:17 So everybody fits in the same mold. What do you want, but you know, politics is, it's just something that is, is so serious, and we're so steeped in some of that stuff today that we just can't converse about it. And we talk about humor, but the whole art of conversation. And so I'm sure that you were to spend a lot of time just having conversations with people, which helps make them feel more welcome.   Quenton McElveen ** 16:44 Right, and I was trying to meet people where they are, you can kind of have a dessert for people, I fill them out. So you know what they're comfortable with talking about. And that's just it. So I have different conversations with different people depending on the when you're going through at a time when they're already talking about. And so it's never a disrespectful conversation and never insulting. It's always uplifting. And something that builds you up. Have you ever had a   Michael Hingson ** 17:15 situation that where you just could not break through and talk to someone or they were just really obnoxious?   Quenton McElveen ** 17:20 Yeah, I've had quite a few of those. That's what I know just to if they wanted to be transactional. Okay, I'll do that for you. I'm not going to ask you how your day was or anything like that. I'm just going to complete this transaction. I'm going to provide the service that you want me to provide. And I got to be out your way. I'm not going to hold you up at all. Yeah, few and far between. But they happen though. Yeah, that's   Michael Hingson ** 17:48 unfortunate. And you know, you don't know what caused them to be that way. And maybe they're not always that way. But whatever. There's nothing that you can really do about that other than your best guess   Quenton McElveen ** 17:59 right? There. In the hotel industry, there's a difference between hotel leisure and hotel business. So these guests come in with two different needs. against us, they're on vacation, or they're there, they have all the time in the world to spend. So they're going to ask you a lot of questions like what's the best place to eat? And what should I visit while I'm here, they're gonna ask you engage in questions. But the business guests their their own business, they just want to run with a nice, big enough outlet to plug in their laptop and their cell phone and tablet. They don't need to know what a pool is. So why am I spending my time telling them about a pool? They don't need that. They don't want to know, the newest exciting thing in town. They're not here for that. So you got to know what's compensation the half? Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 18:52 I must admit that even if I'm somewhere for leisure, I do want to know where those outlets are. Yeah. To be able to plug things in and especially where the USB ports are these days, which is, which is getting to be more and more important, and probably rightly so.   Quenton McElveen ** 19:12 Yeah, and I believe hotel so far, some of them have done a great job of adapting to the, the new that new target market, because 20 years ago, we didn't need extra outlets, and of course, but now it's almost mandatory. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 19:29 And you got to have enough outlets to make it worthwhile this because people are bringing things that require them and they want them and it's all about convenience. That's right.   Quenton McElveen ** 19:41 Every note is that um, um, we talked about cell phones earlier. Now there are there are apps that you can connect with the desk before you even arrive. There are right before you had to pick up the phone or call now. They don't want you to call it as much now because sometimes you have to talk to a call center versus talking to the front desk. Yeah, well, that wasn't as big as it is now. So things are changing. And there   Michael Hingson ** 20:12 is a huge difference between talking to someone in a call center and talking to someone at the front desk. And I still prefer to call personally and speak to someone. And usually, I can figure out how to get around calling the call center, like if they want if you want to talk about reservations, and they can say, if you want to speak to somebody about reservations, push one, I pretty much am certain that's gonna go to a call center. And not interested in that. So secret, everybody, I just dial zero and go from there. But mostly, I have my act together before I go and have enough information is sent to me via email, or I can look at like the Hilton honors app, and get a lot of information right off the bat. So I get a lot of the data that I need, which is which is important.   Quenton McElveen ** 21:09 I want to I want to answer that. I'm glad you mentioned about that out. I think it's important for those who don't travel often or you're really not that into travel, you may or may not have out it whether you go to Hilton Marriott high Wyndham doesn't matter which brand you go to, I highly encourage you to download the app and do check in on the app, I would not wait to check in when you get there. But download the app and you can use it as a room key in some hotels, you don't have to have physical key. And if you check in on the hell, you don't have to stop by the front desk, unless you absolutely just want to, you can walk right past the front desk, you don't have to check in there and go straight to your room. That's so convenient. And there are times when hotels sell out. If you check it out, you put in much I guarantee your room, no matter what time you arrive, whether you get that midnight or after, if you've already checked in, they're not going to remove you from that room, right?   Michael Hingson ** 22:14 My challenge with some of that though, is in checking in and picking a room. Especially if there are different styles rooms that all fall into the category that I can choose. Not being able to see them and and then giving you the information through pictures. That's a problem for me. Okay, so I have a challenge with that. But I don't mind checking in, but I also still go to the front desk. And the reason I do is it being different enough. very frankly, I want people to know who I am. So they're they'll understand later if I ask questions or call and have a question or just come down or or whatever. So I don't mind speaking to the desk, but that's a personal thing. And it doesn't matter to me if it's business or personal or pleasure. It is still to me. Probably extremely helpful to speak to somebody at the desk.   Quenton McElveen ** 23:14 Right? I agree. It was good to get that personal interaction as well. Just connected with people. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 23:22 Where I see challenges for me a lot is going to a hotel. And they have a lot of hotels have these breakfasts in the morning, the free breakfast or whatever, and you go into this room and they can you can make a waffle or they've got pre made omelets and all that stuff. Sometimes they're not necessarily very good, but they're there. The problem is getting help to find out what's where and actually getting assistance to get things because, you know, unless I just go around with a fork and taste everything in each each container, you know, that's not gonna work very well.   Quenton McElveen ** 24:05 Well, normally, there are representatives that   Michael Hingson ** 24:08 well, there are tenants, but sometimes they're in the kitchen in the back washing dishes or whatever, or they step away. So it's just, they're not always there. And more often than not, it takes a while. But the other problem is, here's what usually happens when I find a breakfast attendant. i I'll go in and I'll stand for a second and usually I can find an attendant fairly quickly. So most of the time, they don't wander off, but then they say, Well, what do you want for breakfast? I don't know. I just got here. What do you have? You know, they always want to know and a lot of times that's why I hate it when people want to read me menus in restaurants and so on. If I go in and they don't have a Braille menu. I say to them, you know, I'd like to know what's on the menu. And then the question is what do you want? Well, you know, the the temptation, when that happens is to say something like, I want to roast duck dinner with stuffing, and other things like that, that I'm sure they're not going to have. Why are you asking me what I want? When I want to know, first of all, what's on the menu? How am I going to figure that out? It's kind of an interesting world we live in.   Quenton McElveen ** 25:22 Yeah. And that's a common question that I get to when I go to restaurants that I have not been to before. Let me see the menu first. And I'll be able to answer that question. Right. But I'll tell you what your hell first, you know,   Michael Hingson ** 25:33 yeah, because seeing the menu doesn't do good for me. Right. And it is a challenge to get people to recognize, well, I got to know what there is. First. There are some interesting apps, and they don't do as much as I would like. But there's a an app, for example, called menus for all. And it has some almost 800,000 different restaurant menus. And what you can do is you can just activate it when you're where you want to be. And it will tell you, starting from the closest going out what the menus are that they have. Unfortunately, I've been doing really well lately in the menus that I've wanted, or for the restaurants that I'm I know I'm at, they don't have. And so I still only get them the menu. There are other ways to get it. And there are a number of ways there's a program called Blind square that I can access. And when I do that,   Quenton McElveen ** 26:29 then   Michael Hingson ** 26:32 it'll see where I am. And blind square also is great at pulling up local menus, it actually goes into the website on its own, and finds it and discovers the menu and then it can read it out loud or whatever. But yeah, menus can be a challenge and restaurants. On the other hand, go to Embassy Suites, the chicken case, ideas are always good. Yes, so I can I can be in a rut pretty easily. In case the Diaz,   Quenton McElveen ** 27:05 if all else fails, go to Embassy Suites. That's a good place to eat.   Michael Hingson ** 27:10 And stay Yeah, it is. pricey. But but you know, there are there are always challenges. And mostly, I do find that people want to do the right thing. But of course, they want to do the right thing a lot more, when you make it joyful for them to want to do the right thing. So I think that's really important to address to   Quenton McElveen ** 27:34 you talking about just employees in general. I'm talking   Michael Hingson ** 27:37 about employees in general, and interacting with with the public employees are going to be more prone to interact with me, if I make it pretty clear that I value them and want to talk with them. And you know that we can have a good conversation as opposed to just being a jerk. That's right. That's right. I agree. So what do you love about the hospitality industry since you were in it for such a long time, and you're still sort of in it, if you will,   Quenton McElveen ** 28:09 it's come natural, to me, is something I've been doing my entire life. And just just being a part of having a job where you hospitality is something that you have to do. It's not hard at all, it comes natural. Even if I wasn't working, I will be doing something with hospitality. Even when I'm not working right now. Like if I go to a mall or something, something as simple as holding the door for the next person. Or something as simple down south, we say Yes, ma'am. Yes, sir. I know that's not accepted everywhere. But it shows respect. Just making sure if if there was an accident that happened with someone, someone slips and falls, making sure they Okay, versus pulling your phone out for YouTube and Facebook, you know, just the old school stuff that it's not as valued as much today. So working in the hospitality, industry or working in hospitality, it gives you the opportunity to do that, to get paid for doing something that you love doing.   Michael Hingson ** 29:17 And that's really the issue, isn't it? It's all about making it a fun job and paying for what you love doing and getting paid for what you love doing.   Quenton McElveen ** 29:25 If there's my personality, we have a front of the house, or there is in front of the house and the back of the house for a reason. Not everyone wants to be up front talking to guests, and that's fine. This was the back of the house for and so and then in front of the house person, they don't necessarily want to be in the back. So it's a room for you. You don't have to be customer or guest facing to be in the hospitality industry. But   Michael Hingson ** 29:52 even so, there are going to be times when people in the back of the house are going to have to interact with customers and so they should I understand enough the value of doing it even though it may not be what they do regularly.   Quenton McElveen ** 30:03 That's true.   Michael Hingson ** 30:07 That's right. So it's kind of important. What's your most memorable moment? What's the thing that stands out to you the most about being in the hospitality industry or that happened to you?   Quenton McElveen ** 30:18 When I graduated in 2011, and I love this question. I moved to New Orleans never been there before. Don't have any family there. I moved there, because I have a great opportunity. And it's a culture shock. Coming from South Carolina to New Orleans, they don't even speak the same type of English. So I had to learn English again. When I first touched down in the in the airport, the lady said, she asked me how I was doing but she said, how you doing baby? And I thought she liked me something because she called me baby. But no, that's and then as I continue to go along, that's just how they greet one another there by saying, baby. That's it. Oh, okay. So it's a whole lot different. So my most memorable moment in the hotel industry was opening or reopening the Hyatt Regency New Orleans. Hotel was destroyed by a bit of real bad by Hurricane Katrina. Katrina, right. And I was part of that team that reopened it. So I when it comes to mattresses and pillows, sofas, I was part of that team just restocking the rooms, getting them prepared, ready to open. I even had a hand and the 10 replacement in the bathrooms. So that was a big part of my idea. If you're still like that today, how wasn't that when I was there? Notice something I could have credit for. Many years later,   Michael Hingson ** 32:04 I stayed at that hotel. I remember it. It's been a while, but I've been there. And we're attended a couple of conventions in New Orleans as well.   Quenton McElveen ** 32:12 Around what year? It   Michael Hingson ** 32:15 was, it was pre Katrina. Okay. I'm trying to think if I'd been if I've been there since I may have been there once since. But I know I did pre Katrina, and I think I was in New Orleans once and did stay there. And it was after Katrina, but it was several years after I Katrina hit. And then I was also Hurricane Rita, in Texas. And I was in Texas, when all of that happened. And so I got to see a lot of what was going on like in Beaumont, Texas, and around and around there and how people were having to deal with it. It was definitely a sad situation. Yeah. And people were homeless because of what happened. And sometimes I remember it was very difficult to break through to people and get people to smile. And, and I worked at it pretty hard. Course, in one sense, it's easier for me having a guide dog because most everyone loves to pet a Labrador golden retriever. And right, especially when the dog comes up and pushes his or her nose right under your hand and says I'm here. Time to talk to me. And people love that. Yeah.   Quenton McElveen ** 33:34 Now I'm actually working at a property of my   Michael Hingson ** 33:37 current dog would say let me jump in your lap. But that's another story. You're gonna say.   Quenton McElveen ** 33:43 I once worked at a property where we had a adopted dog program. Uh huh. So there was a dog in the hotel lobby by the front desk 24/7 until someone came to adopt that pet and then when that pet got adopted, they brought a new dog in and that was that was interesting and people love to come in and like you said pet pet the dog that we had in at the time.   Michael Hingson ** 34:12 Yeah. Quite she had to have a dog that would tolerate being loved by lots of people but that's fine. Yes.   Quenton McElveen ** 34:20 The only we have many problems so one dog that we had to we had to send back because didn't like the pit   Michael Hingson ** 34:32 only dogs oh no cats, huh? No kiss. Yeah, there's there are differences there and cats would be a different situation all the way around anyway. But still, that's neat that they did that. Where was that? What was what hotel was that? Where was that?   Quenton McElveen ** 34:50 This is actually in Greenville, Greenville, South Carolina.   Michael Hingson ** 34:56 Do they still have that program? Do you think   Quenton McElveen ** 34:59 I'm gonna Sure, I would imagine that they do. But I'm not 100% Sure. That's cool. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 35:07 Now I have been to the Peabody Hotel in Tennessee, where, you know, they have the ducks that go over the bridge every day. And we watched the ducks and my dog was very interested in those ducks. The thing is with with her, she liked ducks. We actually had ducks. That came up on our patio, in Northern California, in Novato, California, we were lived on a lagoon and the ducks would come up because we fed them bread. And if my dog just laid down, they would surround her need to quack at her and so on. And as long as she didn't make any sudden moves, they were they were fine course what she loved to do was suckered them all to getting close by and then she would jump up, and they would all fly away. She loved to watch them. flyweight did not do. But but she she was absolutely very, very sociable and loved them. That was her visit version of hospitality, right? Because she really did she loved the ducks. And, and, and actually, they all got along really well. So it was kind of cool. Nice. Nice. Yeah, it is.   Quenton McElveen ** 36:25 Well, so   Michael Hingson ** 36:29 what? So what is the the hospitality industry taught you what have you learned from being in it for such a long time.   Quenton McElveen ** 36:37 So working in the industry, you meet people from all walks of life, it teaches you diversity. So coming from a small city in South Carolina, where you run the same atmosphere all the time, and that's all you see, once you move out, like for example, when I moved to New Orleans, or, or moved back to South Carolina, and worked in a few different cities in South Carolina, you meet people that fly in from all over the world, really. So it expands a broaden your horizons, you get to interact with a lot of different ethnicities. So it definitely teaches you diversity, teaches you patience, because not everyone has an enjoy, they have time. Let me say it another way. Some people run into some issues, like maybe some accident happened at room was a cleaner web, whatever the case, was it tissue patients because you want to sit down and listen to them completely, and then solve their problem, you don't want to just cut them off. And then to solve the problem, you want to listen to them first. Because that's one way that they're going to feel value. They think that it matter if you listen to them first. So it teaches you that patience, and it teaches you really be a better person. It really does. So because if you didn't have the opportunity to know that, just because you think something is a good idea your co worker is from another country or from another city, another background, they have a completely different idea. And there isn't wrong, yours isn't wrong either. Is is different, you got to figure out a way to come together for the greater good of the assignment that you're on or the greater good of the property and work it out. And it's good to see some from another lens. You've only you only can speak on your life experiences. If you've never experienced something different How can you give a valid input on your coworker has and vice versa. And so that's another way of just broadening horizons. And having a problem solving skills is transferable to any industry that you transfer to your personal life, being able to problem solve, because it's not gonna be perfect every day. There's no two days of like something something's always going to need attention done to it. And if you've done so many times, just being just being a human being, you're gonna have to put those things into practice at some point outside of your job. Yeah. And one thing that I'm not sure if people know it or not, but I won't point they didn't work in in the hotel industry has a lot of transferable skills. Like as we stated before, I currently work in the healthcare industry, but a lot of stuff that I use, I learned from working in hotel talking to a guest with a patient but I call them guests that maybe were frustrated with them. Well, let me tell you the story. Listen, this happened last week. Last week, I got a call that we had a guest that was actually blind guests. And he struggled with getting around in our facility, he, he was able to get dropped off there by the transportation company. And he was able to get picked up. But why he was there. He didn't. He didn't receive the help that he needed. So he told, he told him, the person, his caregiver. And he told me because I worked with guests, the guests experience department. And we met at work. So the next time you come, give us a call, we ensure that you get around to your destination while you're in the building. And when you leave, make sure you get back to the front door. And I got a I got feedback on this week that he saw the difference that he really enjoyed us taking the time to make sure that he was taking care of it. So that looked that's come from the hotel industry. And that was something I love to do. I love to take care of someone.   Michael Hingson ** 41:02 So you think you probably wouldn't have necessarily learned that if it hadn't been for being in the hotel and hospitality industry for so long.   Quenton McElveen ** 41:09 I wouldn't have been exposed to it the way that I have been so would have reacted, maybe not the same. But just my upbringing, I'd love to help people in a way, but going about it in such a way to get it done as quick as seamless as possible. The hotel industry has taught me how to do that.   Michael Hingson ** 41:29 How would you describe your leadership style? Because clearly, you've progressed in the hospitality industry, and you must have been in managerial and leadership positions. And obviously, in college, you did some things that that would mark you as a leader. So what's your style?   Quenton McElveen ** 41:47 Yeah, so yes, I have had some, several manager positions in front of the house, and back of the house with rooms and food and beverage, and my leadership style is charismatic. And hands on down in the trenches with them. We're going to get our work done, but we want to have fun doing it as well. If you're going to laugh joke, you're going to go to see some humor, I want you to feel comfortable, I want you to feel like you matter. It's not a dictatorship, it's not a strong on ruler, ship. Your opinion is needed and is necessary. And as leader, I'm going to frontline not going to ask you to do something that I would not do. So charismatic would be the answer to that.   Michael Hingson ** 42:35 Have you had Oh, go ahead.   Quenton McElveen ** 42:38 Let me give you a housekeeping story. Many times in a hotel industry you have to you're gonna have to pitch in and help housekeeping which is understood, very common. So it doesn't matter that you got a brand new suit on that you bought rolled sleeves up and get in there, make them beds and help clean, that's what managers do. You don't just tell somebody else to do it. And so there have been times where I'm helping house he was in a room to know when to quit, we got it, you go back up to the front, we'll take care of it for you. So that respect level they have they know that I'm willing to help. But in that particular case, they wanted me to they didn't want me to do it that they want me to help it in other ways.   Michael Hingson ** 43:27 But you said a message by what you did that you're willing to help and assist them. Because they they also have a lot they're dealing with so you kind of have their back.   Quenton McElveen ** 43:39 Right? At a town of a family this is is actually international housekeeping. We I'm not in the industry anymore. But this week is special. It's a it's a time where you use your resources and use the time to celebrate housekeepers. And I absolutely love this week. And just scrolling through my feed. There's a lot of different things that are being done this week. There's one hotel, they're getting all the housekeepers a pedicure, but a spa day a lot of celebrations, a lot of food, a lot of acknowledgments. And just think of the hotel industry without housekeeping. You know, hotel would last because they are the heart of the hotel. You   Michael Hingson ** 44:33 in dealing with a lot of different people and all that. Have you had any employee situations that you've inherited, for example, where, again, somebody just didn't respond and you had to take some action because they were not being hospitable?   Quenton McElveen ** 44:52 Yes, yes. There's two I can think of right now. One case it was Is that like, you come in, and you're working, you're working with the public. Like I say, you want to be hospitable, if you just want to come in and just be transactional. I don't want to tell about the exact the exact things that happened. But if you just slipped, somehow slipped through the cracks through the interview, like you played the safe in the interview, and you act it well, but you get the job, and you're totally different person. That's not going to last, well, this isn't going to last long, I should say. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 45:32 And cuz you can't hide it forever. Right? After   Quenton McElveen ** 45:37 about three months is usually a time. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 45:44 It is something that people are going to pick up on. Again, it's so much easier to have fun and enjoy life and encourage others to do the same thing anyway.   Quenton McElveen ** 45:57 Well, one thing that I really enjoy about another thing about working in hotel industry, as I got older,   Quenton McElveen ** 46:05 my focus really wasn't so much. Me, of course, I know I'm going to do a good job. But I want to see how can I develop a team, I kind of lead others to be successful, I kind of build up others to match their dreams and goals, because not everyone wants to be a manager and hold change. Not everyone wants your job. Some people are they're working through school, some people have a spouse that's working, and they just want a second job. Find out what motivates everyone. And that'll help you be a better manager to them. And if you align with your people's needs, they're definitely going to align with yours as well. And, for example, let's say you have your short staffed one day, if you're not a good manager, if you don't treat your team with respect, you can make the phone calls or call people in your phone, you might not get the answer. But then they see, okay, this manager respects me. Let me answer the phones, if they want it, yeah, come in, even even to come in. That makes a big difference in how you treat people. And being a leader, not just a manager, a boss, you get a chance to really change people's lives for the better. And that brings more joy than just by anything. Because I always treat my employees as they were just about treatment, I guess, then I don't, there's no doubt in my mind, they're going to treat the guests. Well, because they see that manager do.   Michael Hingson ** 47:33 You just said something really interesting, you talked about a leader or a manager, or just the boss, what's the difference between a boss and say, a manager or a leader?   Quenton McElveen ** 47:45 Well put boss, a manager in the same category. So a manager, they have a certain task and incomplete goal that they need to reach, they're gonna just reach that goal, and they're going to tell you to go do it. They're part of that airplane is delegation. That's the main part of what they do. Leader, yes, they're gonna delegate as well. But they're going to do it with you, they're going to make sure that you have all the tools that you need to complete the task, the delegation, they're gonna do some of that some of them with you on the front lines. So they while they're on the front lines, now we get to know each other, we've moved on from small talk. Now, I might know something about your family. Now I know about your interest was your favorite ice cream. So when your birthday your birthday gets here, I can give you that? A manager, they don't really care about all those details that much. Just come in, do your job, and and keep it moving. So there's a there's a big difference between a manager and a leader. And I always want to be the leader that I want my layout that I want to have. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 49:03 I think it's important to be a leader in the really good managers learn to assess who has what leadership qualities and know when to give up leadership to somebody else on the team to deal with something that they need to deal with.   Quenton McElveen ** 49:20 Yes, I 100% agree with that. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 49:24 we experienced a lot of that in the World Trade Center, going down in escaping on September 11. There were different people that had different skills that that worked at different times. And and even working with my guide dog, there were times that the dog was able to guide because we could walk side by side and there were times that the dog couldn't be next to me and had to walk behind me just at heel on leash. But, you know, the bottom line is that for the team of me and a guide dog, we both respected each other and I think that's The biggest issue with teams and team building overall, is to develop a true respect among all the team members and that the leader of the team knows, and learns to understand the qualities and abilities of everybody on the team to know exactly that when to allow someone else to take the lead to accomplish something.   Quenton McElveen ** 50:23 Yes, there are several times in department meetings, that was something that we had to accomplish or go over. There are times I would open up the floor until tell the team okay, this is what we need to accomplish. Does anybody have any ideas, I mean, it might be an acid that I have. But reverence is given all the answers, empower somebody else to join in, and give them a chance to lead. And you start to see what you have a lot of stress on your team, if you just allow them to contribute, that have made them that have made them better employees and make them better leaders. I've seen where I've seen housekeepers turn into housekeeping managers. I've had a Front Desk Agent turn into a general manager made throughout progression of the Maya leadership. Yeah. So empowering employee empowerment shoes, for me is a big part of my own. What I do as a leader,   Michael Hingson ** 51:26 well, and as you, let's go back to your discussion, you're having a discussion with people and you say, what, what are your ideas, please contribute? And somebody said something, and you assess, and then maybe make the decision to say, Okay, would you be willing to coordinate starting and working this project, which is, of course, part of what you're saying, it's very important to be able to do that. And I think that that's extremely important. And it shows that people value the people that they work with. And I also believe that good leaders are also servants and Rita understand that, Oh,   Quenton McElveen ** 52:08 yeah. That that goes into employee engagement as well. Once you get your employee engaged, then you don't necessarily have to worry as much about what they're doing whenever you're not around. Because they have an assignment, like you just mentioned, and the deadline, they're going to be working on getting that assignment done. And if somebody is engaged, they're more likely to stay because you want to be somewhere where you feel like you have some type of value. I'm thinking everyone just wants to come in to a place where they know no one wants him to be there. So that employee engagement is another thing as well, that's a big part of my leadership style.   Michael Hingson ** 52:50 I work when I'm dealing with my teams, whenever it is, to get people to understand that I don't want you to just feel that this is a job, I want you to have fun, I want you to come because you want to. And I think that I have to have fun, and I have to set that example. But I want people not to think that a job is just a job, but it is what we're doing. And we're working together. And we're making a difference. And part of my job is to show people when they make a difference and how they make a difference and why that's so important.   Quenton McElveen ** 53:29 In today's world, you know the the generations change from Baby Boomers to Generation X, Generation Y, Generation Z, the 10 years of the length of time someone stays at a company, it changes. You used to see those that stay at a job for 20 plus years. You don't see that as often now, usually the generation now or Millennials or generation after us because I'm a millennial, my standard job for three years or so? No, maybe less than that. Maybe more now, but I would say three years is probably a good average. And the some of the reasons why they would take a position at another job because they don't feel as value. Another job might offer them something that they can't get at their current position. That's one of the reasons. And as I think that we need to kind of as, as leaders of businesses and companies just kind of evaluate how can we get our employees to stay longer? What can we do? Will it help our bottom line and we figure out a way to keep the longer or I think that's a discussion that needs to be had.   Michael Hingson ** 54:52 You think companies are doing that at all and are catching on to the fact that that probably is a sensible thing or do you think that People just still are viewing workers as commodities without really looking at the person. Because my impression is that there's a lot of that that goes on today,   Quenton McElveen ** 55:12 I think is a topic of discussion. Um, I honestly don't know, what's, what's being done. The the gig economy has played a big part in that. Because so the generation now they can just go quit. And okay, I'll drive Uber for a few months until I can find something else, or am I stupid, permanently, that this was not an option 2030 years ago, that you couldn't take a job like that. Or somebody might say, I'm going to be a content creator. So I'm gonna make my money online. So there are more options now than ever before. And because of those options, it should be some action taken within corporate America. Something that we got to learn?   Michael Hingson ** 56:08 Well, you talked about the lessons that you learn in the hospitality industry that you take to life. How about the other way? What have you learned outside of the hospitality industry that you brought into your work in the hotel industry,   Quenton McElveen ** 56:20 there's something that feels right now it's called Emotional Intelligence. I've never heard of that before. Maybe I'm late to the late to it. Or maybe I think I'm just rattling time. But I've never heard of emotional intelligence before. And the industry that I'm in now, as you teach it as a coach, is understanding how your emotions affects others around you, and how it affects your actions as well. And the fact I've been studying this and teaching it to others, like I've improved my performance as far as having conversations with others, because I understand now, how my actions, even though I might not be trying to do something negative, or I might not be trying to act a certain way, it might come off as a certain way. Emotional Intelligence has taught me that. So that's something I've implemented. And I'm going to use this forever. So pretty cool. So   Michael Hingson ** 57:24 in the world, you we all tend to be inspired by people who's the person who's most inspired you.   Quenton McElveen ** 57:31 Person that as far as me right now is my wife. But she's she's given gives me the motivation that I need to go to go in and move our family forward every day. So my wife is my biggest motivation right now.   Michael Hingson ** 57:51 I had a conversation actually with someone earlier today, and we were talking about that very thing. And he asked who inspired me and I mentioned, my geometry teacher from high school did herbal Shimer, but certainly another person and the person who, if I also were to really talk about inspiration would be my wife, Karen, who was married to me for 40 years until she passed, but 40 years, a lot of memories. But in so many ways, and I even in the book I wrote about the World Trade Center in my life, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man has guide dog on the triumph of trust, to talk about that, and talk about some of the things that she did that. I think only she would think of that I certainly didn't, until she brought it up. It just really helped me make some very wise choices. I always thought she was brighter than I anyway. So you switch from directly being in the hospitality industry, the health care industry? What what caused that? And what do you do now? I think you've told us some of that, but that's a pretty big change going from one to the other in a sense that would seem   Quenton McElveen ** 59:05 Yeah. Really well cause is it 2020 During the the height of the pandemic, the situation that I was in in the hotel at the time, it became a hazardous situation because the room rates went down, a lot of the staffing went down. And the environment wasn't a good environment at time. So just so I can be safer and be closer to my family. I accepted a position outside of the hotel industry, hard decision to make because it's an issue that I love that I'm passionate about. But then I found something called a guest experience coach. So wait a minute, is this a hotel job or something? What's the guest experience coaches doing in healthcare? A job so I looked it up. And it was really, if teaching people and instilling in them what I've learned so many years as a manager in the hotel industry, but teaching it to healthcare workers. And so as a guest experience Coach, what I do is I travel around different campuses of my of my company that train on different subjects like the emotional intelligence, training on telephone etiquette, and how to handle difficult guests, and many other topics as well. So that's what I do now, very similar to what I've done in the past. Do   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:39 you think that you would go back into the hotel industry directly in the future? Are you really happy where you are now?   Quenton McElveen ** 1:00:47 Yeah, so I'd love the opportunity to re enter in a role similar to what I'm doing now where you can use your experience and coaching build others up, like a learning and development manager, or even in a role supporting operations. Like, like, I told you, my biggest, my biggest memory or not remember, you asked him what was my biggest something? I did? And I told you that was New Orleans. My most memorable, memorable moment. Yeah, yes. Opening up a property? I absolutely. That was a great experience. There are there are positions that are that you do just that you go around and you open property. So I would love to re enter the industry will give you an opportunity. Well, hopefully that will happen. Yeah, I believe it will. Well, I   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:45 want to thank you for being with us. We've had a lot of fun over this last hour. And I think you've said a lot of very interesting and important things that we can all take to heart I love your view of leadership and, and a lot of the things that you've said, and I've spent enough time around the hospitality industry, I think to understand it, like I said, I I enjoy dealing with people to and helping to have people feel welcome. And and I know that for me being different because of being blind. It's very helpful to do that. So I I love getting the validation of your philosophy and I appreciate that.   Quenton McElveen ** 1:02:25 Listen Michael, Michael, thank you again, it's a great opportunity to be here with you. And I'm honored that you will allow me to be on your platform. So I appreciate what you do here. And I thank you.   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:35 Do you do any coaching privately? Or do you just do it for the healthcare industry? You don't have your own sort of side hustle business?   Quenton McElveen ** 1:02:42 I currently I don't have that, but that's something I've been looking into thinking about.   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:47 Well, yeah, if you do, let us know, because we'll let people know. But if people want to reach out to you, is there a way they can do that? Or do you have any contact information that you want to tell people?   Quenton McElveen ** 1:02:58 Sure. You can find me on LinkedIn, you can just type in Quentin McElveen. Can you spell the active on there? Sure. Q u e n t i n says Quentin and McElveen is M c E l v as a Victor e e n. So Quentin McElveen. easiest to find on there and I'm on there pretty often. So that's that's the best place to end to interact with me. That's how we found you. Yes, that's right.   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:35 I'm very glad that we did. Well. Thanks for being here. Thanks for listening. We really appreciate it. I hope that you enjoyed what Quentin had to say today and that some of it resonates. Reach out to Quentin, establish a connection and make a new friend all the way around. For my part, I'd love to hear from you hear what you think about today. Give us up an email at Michaelhi at accessibe.com That's m i c h a e l h i at accessibe A C C E S S I B E.com. Or visit our podcast page WW dot Michael Hingson H i n g s o n.com/podcast. And wherever you're listening, please give us a five star rating. We really value those ratings and would very much appreciate you saying that you liked us. And if you've had some things that you want to say about it, let us know. Email me I would love to hear from you. Get your thoughts again. It's Michaelhi at accessibe.com. I know Quentin would like to hear from you as well. And when we all get the chance maybe we'll have to do this again, Quentin, when you go back into the hotel industry, we'll have to just hear what new adventures come up. But I want to one more time. Tell you thank you very much for being here and giving us the opportunity to chat with you.   Quenton McElveen ** 1:04:53 Well, I'm looking forward to that I want that to happen as well. I look forward to   **Michael Hingson ** 1:05:03 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

Today on the podcast I'm joined by my buddy Luke Shimer. Luke is one of the best all around outdoorsman and most authentic people I've had the good fortune to know. Watching Luke run the in the mountains of Montana is like watching someone breathe…it looks natural and for him sustenance. Whether he's chasing critters in the mountains or the streams of Montana…or salt water critters in the Caribbean…all I know is you'll eat good. And you're always welcome at his campfire - thanks for listening. Available on all podcast platforms! WHAT TO EXPECT FROM PODCAST 379 Missing school to film hunts on VHS A deep calling Define hunting success Expectations to produce Yukon moose No pack Sunday Grizzly bear populations And much more SHOW NOTES AND LINKS: —Truth From The Stand Merch —Save 20% on ASIO GEAR code TRUTH20 —Save 15% on Exodus trail cameras or arrows with code TFTS or just click this link for automatic savings at checkout! —Support our partners: Asio Gear , Exodus Outdoor Gear, Genesee Beer, Tethrd — Visit my local archery shop Bob and AJ's Archery World —Waypoint TV Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I first met Rob through his podcast, the Unstuck Movement. As I tend to do when being interviewed by podcasters I asked if he would be willing to come on Unstoppable Mindset to talk about his life, his podcast and the lessons he might wish to impart. Boy did I feel like I was a winner as we talked. As Rob tells us, he felt somewhat out of place as he was growing up. He couldn't decide for some time what he wanted to do with his life. As he will tell you, he was stuck and unwilling to explore change to improve himself and his circumstances. Eventually, he did come to realize that he needed to change, and change he did as you will hear. I love having discussions with people like Rob because in some ways you never know where discussions may lead. For example, Rob credits good teachers and coaches with his progress at living life. His discussions lead to a pretty deep conversation between us about teaching, teachers and how in fact we all are teachers whether employed in the profession or not. Rob's life journey is typical of someone who had to find his way in the world, but when he did, he ran with his discoveries. There are lots of life-lessons Rob offers us and I am sure you will find some good concepts in my conversation with Rob. About the Guest: Rob Z Wentz is an Executive Leadership Coach.

A new track by DJ Habett from the album "To improve your Fu" (2024-01-30). Tags: Dub, Ambient, Scholar, Mpc, Ethic, Attic, Mesmerized, Shimer, Glow CC(by). Production notes: One morning, many samples, one mood, one crush. Trying to make it duby. Failure but I like the outtake.

What happens when you put a visionary superintendent, a technology pioneer and a fervent advocate for education in the same room? You get an enlightening conversation with David Shimer, the superintendent of Burton Schools, who has seen the transformative power of technology in the education field. In this riveting conversation, David takes us through his journey, from the inception of computer labs to the successful implementation of a one-to-one device program. He unpacks the lessons learned, the challenges faced, and the immense satisfaction of seeing students flourish with these integrated tools.David also dives deep into the art of leadership, unravelling what it truly means to guide and inspire. From discussing the nuances of a superintendent's responsibilities, to the importance of servant leadership, he shares invaluable insights. We also traverse the delicate balance between a demanding career and family life. David's tales of being a supportive figure in his children's lives underscore the significance of presence, not pressure, in nurturing their passions.As we journey further, we explore mentorship, the pursuit of continuous improvement, and a glimpse into the future of education. David emphasizes the critical role of educators and mentors in shaping the next generation and the necessity of investing in them. The conversation climaxes with a heartening chat about David's plans to start a podcast showcasing positive experiences within the Burton School District. Get ready for an episode that intertwines leadership, technology, education, and inspiration - all with the earnest endeavour to make a difference in the world of education.Support the showQuest for Success Links | https://linktr.ee/questforsuccess

Ted Shimer has mentored men since 1991 with the collegiate ministry Student Mobilization. He received his MABS from Dallas Seminary and has been trained as a Pastoral Sex Addiction Professional-Supervisor. Ted has helped people overcome the bondage of pornography in the context of making disciples throughout his 30 plus year ministry. He is the Founder of The Freedom Fight, an online porn addiction recovery program. He is also the author of the book, The Freedom Fight, The New Drug and the Truths that Set Us Free. Ted and his wife Amber have four adult children and live in Fayetteville, Arkansas. Visit their website at thefreedomfight.org --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/moral-revolution/support

This week, Karin welcomes Kaitlin Shimer, MSW, LCSW, eating disorder therapist at KLEDC, to the show for, "Acting Towards Our Values."Join us as we explore the false belief that multiple treatment stays are an indicator of helplessness, the intersection of eating disorders, ADHD, and substance abuse, peer-to-peer healing, the complexities of eating disorder recovery and food allergies, the function of avoidance, “symptom swapping,” the benefit of Acceptance and Commitment therapy (ACT), and much more.Kaitlin Shimer, MSW, LCSW is an eating disorder therapist at the Karin Lewis Eating Disorder Center, located in Boston, MA. She has worked in the eating disorder field for over nine years, with experience as a residential counselor, group leader, and recovery coach for eating disorder clients from all backgrounds. Kaitlin uses the insight gained in her past work combined with her own lived experience to compassionately show up for her clients.Kaitlin strongly believes in every individual's ability to recover and live a life they genuinely value. She works with clients of all ages, though has a special place working with adolescents. Kaitlin is passionate about trauma-informed care, ACT, DBT, and body-based interventions. Learn more about Kaitlin here.Begin your healing journey with KLEDC

On todays pod we have a Blast from the past Craig's old co-host Jon Shimer fresh back from a 100+ day tour. He gives us a run down on where hes been. Email us at: getheavypodcast@gmail.com Listen to audio on all major podcast formats. Please subscribe, rate, review, comment, TELL YOUR FUCKING FRIENDS Watch us @ https://www.youtube.com/getheavypodcast Follow All things Heavy @http://getheavypodcast.ctcin.bio/ Enjoy, Craig and J

“Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." – John 8:32 David and Stu sit down with author Ted Shimer to talk about the overwhelming percentage of people who say they watch porn - from Christian college students to spouses to pastors. Ted has witnessed first-hand the destruction of pornography addictions and how it can ruin marriages, careers, and lives. Listen in as they discuss the roots of pornography, the underlying causes, and the power in vulnerability to fight against the addiction. Ted is the author of The Freedom Fight To connect with Ted: Website: thefreedomfight.org Instagram: @thefreedomfight -- Get your FREE Storehouse Family Roles Exercise PDF here: www.storehouse310.com/roles Come join David and Stu in The Storehouse Mastermind, which brings together a diverse group of men striving to become the best husbands, fathers, friends, and leaders possible. Learn More here: https://storehouse310.com/mastermind Get the FREE Kinetic Living Family Roles Worksheet by emailing podcast@storehouse310.com. Learn More! Apply here! Join our Facebook Group! Do us a favor and leave us a review! Click here at Apple Podcasts! Know someone who would make a great guest on our podcast? Let us know! stuart@storehouse310.com This podcast is sponsored by DoDReads.com which promotes lifelong learning, personal development and leadership that comes from the books you read. If you are interested in updating your military reading list, email: storehouse@dodreads.com

We're joined in the Barbershop by Diego DeLeon and John Shimer to go through the World Cup groups. We give our dark horse teams and players and make our final predictions. Ciao.

Yes, that is how Donald G. “Skip” Mondragon describes himself. Skip has served as an internal Medicine physician in the Army rising to the rank of colonel.   Throughout much of his life, Skip has also been a wrestler competitor, and he has been good at the sport.   In 2014 Skip discovered that he was suffering from a deep depression. As he worked through his condition and emerged from it he also wrote his Amazon Bestselling book entitled Wrestling Depression Is Not For Wimps.   I very much enjoyed my interview with Skip Mondragon and I sincerely hope that you will as well and that Skip's conversation and stories will inspire you.   About the Guest: Donald G. “Skip” Mondragon, MD is a transformed tough guy. Since recovering from depression in 2014, he's been on a quest to help ten million men struggling with depression, one man at a time. He's practiced Internal Medicine for over thirty years. Colonel Mondragon is a twenty-six-year Army veteran, spent eighteen months in combat zones, and is a national wrestling champion. Skip's book Wrestling Depression Is Not for Wimps! was published in February 2020 and is the author of Inspired Talks Volume 3, an Amazon International Bestseller. He's spoken on different stages, including at TEDXGrandviewHeights in December 2021. Skip's true claim to fame is his five independent and gainfully employed children, his four amazing grandchildren, and especially his wife Sherry. She's a fellow author and a tough Army wife. Sherry has endured raising teenagers on her own, a variety of moves to new duty stations, and far too many of Skip's idiosyncrasies for forty-one years of marriage.   Skip can be reached at: Email: skipmondragon@transformedtoughguys.com Website: www.transformedtoughguys.com Book: www.amazon.com/author/skipmondragon LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/skip-mondragon-66a-2b436 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/SkipWNW/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/SkipWnw   About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is an Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app.   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.     Transcription Notes* Michael Hingson  00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i  capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson  01:21 Good morning or afternoon wherever you happen to be and welcome to unstoppable mindset. Today, our guest is Donald  “Skip” Mondragon. I met Donald not too long ago, actually at podapolooza. And we've talked about that before. It's an event where podcasters would be podcasters. And people who want to be interviewed by podcasters all get together. Sometimes one person has all three at once. But I met Skip. And we talked a little bit and I said would you be interested and willing to come on the podcast? And he said yes. So now he's stuck with us? Because here we are. Skip. How are you?   Donald G. “Skip” Mondragon  01:58 I am doing great. Michael, delighted to be here.   Michael Hingson  02:02 Now where are you located?   Donald G. “Skip” Mondragon  02:04 I am in the Dallas Fort Worth area.   Michael Hingson  02:06 So there you go two hours ahead of where we are and any fires nearby? Hopefully not. No, sir.   Donald G. “Skip” Mondragon  02:14 Thank you, Lord,   Michael Hingson  02:15 right now us the same way. And we're, we're blessed by that. But it is getting hot in both places, isn't   Donald G. “Skip” Mondragon  02:22 it? Oh, yes, indeed.   Michael Hingson  02:25 Well, tell me a little bit about you, maybe your early life and so on. And you know, we'll kind of go from there.   Donald G. “Skip” Mondragon  02:31 Yes, sir. And the third of eight children born of Hispanic parents, but meager means but born in Denver, Colorado. My father went to the Korean War, and came back a broken man. The man that went to war was not the man that came home. He suffered, I'm convinced with bipolar disorder, PTSD, and he was an alcoholic. And when my dad drank, he was violent. My sister, my eldest sister, Roma tells us that when my dad would come home, we would run and hide, because we didn't know which dad was coming home. The kind, gentle, fun loving dad for the angry mean, violent dad. So this was my early childhood. I actually don't have memories before the age of seven, other than a couple little fleeting memories. So I don't remember a lot of that I get history really from my sister, my older sister,   Michael Hingson  03:33 I help that because he's just blocked it out or something worse.   Donald G. “Skip” Mondragon  03:37 Yes. It's it's gone. Those I just don't have those memories are not accessible. But that was my early childhood. It was chaotic. It was. It was chaotic. It was traumatic. But I came from very loving family. Eight, you know, seven siblings were all close in age. 10 years separate us. We're still close to this day enjoy being together with one another loud, boisterous. Or they're very affectionate. No. My siblings are in Texas. I have a brother in the Baltimore area, Maryland, one in Raleigh, North Carolina. I'm here in Texas. The others are all in Colorado.   Michael Hingson  04:20 So I guess with a number in Colorado, that's the meeting place.   Donald G. “Skip” Mondragon  04:25 Yes, sir. Between my wife and I, my mother is the only living parent. And so we go back home as we call it to his in Colorado. Yes.   Michael Hingson  04:36 Well, there's nothing wrong with that. Indeed. So you grew up? Did you go to college?   Donald G. “Skip” Mondragon  04:45 Yes, sir. tended start my college career at the University of Notre Dame ROTC scholarship, left there, in my fifth semester confused, not quite sure what I was going to do. There's this tug, am I going to go into ministry or says medicine I was pre med at the time I left school I was out of school for three plus three and a half years trying to decide what I was going to do. And then I transferred into all Roberts University where I finished my undergraduate work for Roshan first in Tulsa, Oklahoma. And their I went to medical school and it's there for you that I met my sweetheart sherry. And this year we celebrated our 41st wedding anniversary,   Michael Hingson  05:30 Pierre just ahead of us by a year and a half, I guess because we will, our 40s will be in November. No congratulation, which is great. Now, we knew the marriage was gonna last I'm, I'm gonna get shot for this, I'm sure but we knew our marriage was gonna last because the wedding was supposed to start at four in the afternoon on Saturday, the 27th of November of 90. Yes, and the church was not filled up like it was supposed to be at four o'clock. And it got to be an I remember it well for 12 Suddenly, the doors opened and this whole crowd of people came in. And so we started although it was 14 or 12 minutes late, or 15 by the time they got in chair. And it wasn't until later that we learned that everyone was out in their cars until the end of the USC Notre Dame game. Being here in California, my wife getting her master's from USC, oh my gosh, we knew the marriage was gonna last when we learned that not what USC want the snot out of Notre Dame that   Donald G. “Skip” Mondragon  06:45 we took some weapons from USC, I'll be it you back. I was at Notre Dame that year that we we beat them and went on to win the national championship and 73. So that that was a turn of events, if you will, after taking some real whippings the years preceding that from USC.   Michael Hingson  07:07 I you know, I gain an appreciation for football and all seriousness. When it was a couple of years later, I was in Los Angeles and I had a meeting. And somebody was listening on the radio and keeping us apprised the fact that at the end of the first half Notre Dame was leading USC 24 to nothing. And then I got in the car and we started going home. And USC started scoring and scoring. It was with Anthony Davis and man who know about that game, and by the time it was over was 55 Switch 24 USC. But it's a great rivalry. And I'm glad it exists.   Donald G. “Skip” Mondragon  07:50 Right. I think the next year is when they came to South Bend. And they hug hug him in effigy. So I remember they had this thing there. And it's   Michael Hingson  08:00 like the USC, USC, don't let him run against us like that again.   Michael Hingson  08:09 What makes it fun? And as long as it's a game like that, and people view it that way. It's great.   Donald G. “Skip” Mondragon  08:16 There you go. It's a game. That's all it needs to be. Don't   Michael Hingson  08:19 take it too seriously by any means. No, sir. But it's a lot of fun. So, after Oral Roberts and so on you you went off and had some adventures?   Donald G. “Skip” Mondragon  08:32 Yes, sir. What kind of happen next? Well, I went to do further training, internship and residency and Canton, Ohio. And there was a turn of events I had expected I was going to do a military internship and go on and complete my residency with the military. But I received this Dear John letter, approximately six weeks before the interview season was going to close the army telling me I did not receive an army internship and I had to pursue a civilian internship, I think and are you kidding me? I was supposed to be in the Army next year, I hadn't even looked at civilian internships. And so I was scrambling. This was a day maybe days before the internet. You had to go to the library, look up programs, phone numbers, call them find out what they needed. So you could apply to that program what documents they needed send to each program individually, the documents the letters, arrange a flight. Now they have a centralized application system. So you complete one application, your letters of reference are all uploaded there. Then you decide which programs you want the sent to wait. So I'm doing this video post taste. Making this application season is ending Christmas is going to be approaching and then there's nothing going to get done. So I gotta get this done. And it was it was hectic ended up in Canton, Ohio. And it was fabulous. I had the best of both worlds great academics, fabulous clinical teaching. And it just so happened. The new program director was retired brigadier general Andre J. Augmentee. And he scared the snot out of us.   Michael Hingson  10:22 What year was this? What year did this take place?   Donald G. “Skip” Mondragon  10:26 I arrived there in 1985. Got it.   Michael Hingson  10:29 So he scared the snot out of you. Oh   Donald G. “Skip” Mondragon  10:31 my gosh, we call them Dr. Rowe, the big O or the Oh. And when he was when he was coming, we were like, Oh, no deals coming Fall, we'd be at Morning Report, we'd be talking about new cases that were admitted the night before. And he'd asked me to present the case or ask questions. And I would feel like I I felt like the voices on Charlie Brown. Go home and I tell my wife, oh, I can't seem to answer one interview. Question intelligently. When he is around, he must think I'm the stupidest intern he has ever seen. I I just get so flustered when he was around. I went down in a few months them because I was planning on doing physical medicine rehabilitation. But I had really fallen in love with internal medicine. Because my first few months were on the general internal medicine wards, and then a month in the internal or the intensive care unit. And I really fell in love with internal medicine, went to them and talk and said Dr. Rowe, I I'd like to talk to you. I am interested in drone medicine. But I don't know that I could be a good internist, I remember him looking at me and say, Skip, you could be a good interest. In fact, you could be a very good internist. And we'd love to keep you in the program. I could write letters that are permanent, so you can stay on the program and train here. That was a turning point for me. You away. He actually became very good friends. My last year, he actually asked me to be the chief president. I didn't accept because we were expecting our third child at that time preparing to move to join the army and I just couldn't put that pressure on my wife at that time. But we're still good friends to this day. Yes, wife. So it went from being that Bumbly Ugg boots, intern to a competent senior resident to friendship as the years went on.   Michael Hingson  12:49 So he figured you out and obviously saw something you and you kind of figured him out a little bit it sounds like oh, yes,   Donald G. “Skip” Mondragon  12:57 sir. Yes, sir.   Michael Hingson  12:59 Where is he today?   Donald G. “Skip” Mondragon  13:01 He is here in Texas. He is outside of San Antonio. He and his wife Margaret. A little   Michael Hingson  13:06 bit closer than Canton, Ohio.   Donald G. “Skip” Mondragon  13:09 Oh yes sir.   Michael Hingson  13:11 Well, that's great that you guys are still friends and you can see each other that is that is the way it ought to be. In the end, it's it's always great when you can establish a relationship with the teacher. You know, I wrote thunder dog the story of a blind man his guide dog in the triumph of trust at ground zero when I talked in there about Dick herbal Shimer, my geometry teacher. And to this day, we are still friends and chat on the phone on a regular basis.   Donald G. “Skip” Mondragon  13:41 That reminds me of my junior high wrestling coach John Gregerson. We were great friends to this day. And we hadn't seen one another for almost 1015 plus years. I'd seen him at the I think it was the 1992 1994 NCAA Wrestling Championships division one in North Carolina, and hadn't seen him to till 2000. Approximately 2015, something like that, when seen one another, but got in touch with him because he had moved back when he retired from teaching there in Colorado. He moved to Wyoming, then moved back to Colorado, gotten in touch with him said to get in touch with you, John, we met when another talks just just like we hadn't been apart. And I remember upon leaving, talking Adam say, John, I love you. And he looked at me and says, I love you too. And a great man, great relationship. And there's so much affection in my heart and appreciation for that man. The things he taught me.   Michael Hingson  14:56 So wrestling is a part of your life, I   Donald G. “Skip” Mondragon  14:58 guess. Oh my goodness. It's in my blood.   Michael Hingson  15:03 Well tell me about that a little bit.   Donald G. “Skip” Mondragon  15:05 Please. Oh, yes, I, I was miserable at sports any sport. Growing up, I didn't know how to throw I didn't know how to catch. I don't know how to kick. I didn't know how to run. I failed that tetherball. Okay. So I didn't know the skills, I wasn't taught the skills. So wrestling was the first sport that went out for an eighth grade that I thought after if you practice, I think I can be good at this. And IBM think i think i could be really good at this. That was the first time that I wasn't having to compete against boys that were a lot bigger than I was. Because I was typically the smallest kid in my class. And so I was wrestling in the 85 pound weight class in eighth grade, good lowest weight class. I was having good success. Only eighth grader on the varsity team. I didn't win a match that year. But I learned lots I gained a lot of confidence. The next year come in and the rest of the room. I'm the best wrestler in that wrestling. But I get so worked up before a match. I couldn't sleep a wink all night long. So I'd go into that match utterly exhausted mentally and physically. underperform. However, the summer afterwards, I won my first tournament I entered was a state freestyle wrestling tournament, one of the Olympic styles. When my first match, my second, my third match, win my fourth match. Now I'm wrestling for the championship. And I went after that my coach asked me, you know who this guy was you're wrestling have no idea coach. And he said that guy won this tournament last year. And that further cemented my love for this sport went on. He was a two time district champion in high schools, state runner up and honorable mention All American. So I had a lot of success. Moreso in freestyle wrestling a lot of state tournaments I won many state tournaments placed into Nash national wrestling tournaments as a high schooler and then after. After that, I've wrestled some in college and some in freestyle also. But last time it competed was in 2012 and 2013. In the veterans nationals.   Michael Hingson  17:33 How did that go?   Donald G. “Skip” Mondragon  17:35 Oh, how did that go? It went great. I had been wanting to compete again. At ba I still had that bug. Oh, I'd like to do this. The dates the training. I couldn't work that in. But I'm sitting up in the stands watching the state finals of the of the Georgia state finals with my youngest son Joey, he had completed his wrestling career had he not been ill and injured. He would have been wrestling on that stage that night. He was one of the best hunter and 12 pounders in the state of Georgia, but being ill and injured, he wasn't there wrestling that night. So we're watching this I had this wrestling magazine. I think it was USA Wrestling and I'm looking at these dates. Veterans national so it's gonna be held in conjunction with the senior nationals and I'm looking at this. Tucson, Arizona, May 5, and sixth I say Joey, she'll train with me. I'd like to compete. Well, my 18 year old son looks and he goes, Okay, Dad, you're gonna have to do everything I tell you. So Joey became my training partner, my trainer and my manager retrained hard, very hard. So this was mid February. And at first week in May, we're going out to Tucson. Those first six weeks and I was in great shape. I mean, I trained worked out like a fanatic, but those first few weeks, you know, oh my gosh, you know, I'd come home from practice. Oh, my wife and go Have you had enough old man. I think I'm gonna go soak in the tub, honey. I'd sit on the couch with ice on a shoulder or knee or elbow or sometimes all of those week. By week, my body toughen and there was the day I got up. Because I added an early morning workout in addition to my afternoon workouts, bring my weight down help a little bit with the conditioning. And my feet hit the floor. I got out to do my workout. I thought Oh, am I feeling good? I thought Joey, you better bring your A game today because your man is feeling good. So we went out to Tucson won a national championship. And we're sitting there taking this picture with the stop sign of a trophy. Now that I got here, it's big that Joey asked me Dad, was it worth it? All those hot baths, all those ice packs? And I look at him and grin. I say, Yes, it was worth. I had a blast. The next year was a national runner up. So those were the last times I competed, but I've coached I've been around the sport. My sons all wrestled my four sons, my brothers. For my four brothers. They're all younger. They all wrestled my brother in law wrestled my father in law was a college wrestler. Wrestling is in my blood. In fact, my kids call me a wrestling groupie. Because I collect wrestling cards. I get wrestling card sign, I get poster side I mug with all these wrestling greats have friends with World Champions and Olympic champions. That's my blood.   Michael Hingson  20:56 What's the difference between the Olympic style wrestling and I guess other forms like freestyle wrestling, and so on?   Donald G. “Skip” Mondragon  21:02 Okay, so freestyle and Greco Roman are the two Olympic styles. primary difference in those two styles is in Greco Roman, you can't attack the legs. That's the difference in those two. Now, the difference in our style, whether we call school boy or sometimes it's called catches catch can is you also have what we call a a Down and up position that are done differently the way that is in the scoring. To score for instance, a takedown when you take them to the mat, you have to have more control in freestyle is much faster or in in Greco you don't have to show the control, you just have to show the exposure of the back. Plus, you can get a five point move with a high flying exposure, the back or if you take a patient or a an opponent from feet to back in freestyle Aggreko, you can get four points for I said, if it's high flying five points, potentially. Whereas in freestyle, our in our style Americans out, it's two points for a takedown doesn't matter. Take them straight to the back, you could get additional points by exposing the back, if you help hold them there long enough, we'll call a nearfall. And then there's writing time. So if you're on the top position, and you control that man for a minute or longer, you're getting writing time. So there's those factors that that you have. So it's it's and the rules are, are somewhat different. So those are the basic differences in our style and the freedom and the Olympic styles.   Michael Hingson  22:41 But wrestling scoring is pretty much then absolutely objective. It's not subjective. It's not an opinion sort of thing. There are specifics,   Donald G. “Skip” Mondragon  22:51 there are specifics, but then you get into those subjective things. Yeah, it's a caution. It's a stall. It's it's this and you're saying, Are you kidding me? Or they say that's not a takedown you're going What? What do you mean, that's not a takedown? You gotta be blind not to call that thing. So there's still some subjectivity to it. Sure. There is, you know, are they miss? They miss something, the ref misses something in your thing. And you got to be blind dude, you know, that was   Michael Hingson  23:17 a tape. That's an answer. No, no, no. No, here's, here's my question. Is there ever been a time that both wrestlers go after the riff? You know, just check in?   Donald G. “Skip” Mondragon  23:29 I have never seen I have seen some, some, some come off there and give up. You know, escaping something. Yeah, you do to me, your GP and we have to say though, never leave it in the hands of the ref. Never leave it in the hands of the ref. And you you don't want to leave a match in the hands of the ref that don't let it come down to that. Wrestle your match. So there's no question.   Michael Hingson  23:55 Well, so you have wrestled a lot. You went from Canton then I guess you joined the army.   Donald G. “Skip” Mondragon  24:02 Correct? joined the army. Uh huh.   Michael Hingson  24:05 Well, if you would tell me a little bit about about that and what you did and so on.   Donald G. “Skip” Mondragon  24:10 1989 Our first duty station, Lawton, Oklahoma Fort Sill out there on this dreary day, January 3, I believe is gray, dark, you know, overcast, cold, only new to people. My sponsor and his wife. They were the only people we knew when we arrived. I had gone earlier to rent a home for us. And then we were waiting. We our household goods were arriving. Got there. We had three young children. Adam was for Christmas too. And Anjali was four months old. We get there we're moving in. getting settled. I'm in processing to the arm mean, everything's new to us. And then I start practicing as a doctor had two colleagues and internal medicine, within six months of me joining the army or if you will come in on active duty, I shouldn't say joining I had already been on inactive status in the army, going through school and training, but getting their report sale, they turn around and say, well, you're one colleague, like Keith conkel, was named. He's going to do a fellowship, infectious disease. And then my other colleague, Lee selfmade, or senior colleague in internal medicine was chief of the clinic chief of the ICU, he decided very abruptly to get out and do a nephrology fellowship, civilian fellowship, so he was getting out of the army. Now they say, well, you're now the chief of the internal medicine clinic, you're the medical officer, the chief of the intensive care unit. And guess what? You're the only internal medicine physician we're going to have for the summer. Have a good summer. Well, it was worse summer I've ever had in my life. Miserable Oh, it was horrible.   Michael Hingson  26:20 So I was so   Donald G. “Skip” Mondragon  26:21 busy there with with patients and care and responsibilities there and having to tell some patients I'm sorry, we don't have capacity for you're going to have to be seen in the civilian sector. Now, mind you, when my two new colleagues came, we had all these patients screaming back saying please, please, please, may I come back, because they knew the care we rendered was superior to what they were getting the care they were receiving in the civilian sector. But it was it was such a demanding physically and emotionally and timewise. spending enormous amounts of time at the clinic and hospital.   Michael Hingson  27:06 So what does Internal Medicine take in   Donald G. “Skip” Mondragon  27:09 internal medicine, we are specialists for adults, you think of the gamut of non surgical diseases. We take care of adults 18 to end of life. And so our training entails taking care of the common cold, a community acquired pneumonia, that you can treat as an outpatient, to taking care of a patient that's in the ICU, hooked up to life support. That's the scope of what we're trained in. So if you think of the common diseases of adults, high blood pressure, diabetes, heart disease, lung disease, arthritis, gastrointestinal problems, this is the Bailiwick of an internal medicine physician.   Michael Hingson  27:59 Our biggest exposure to that for Well, first of all, my sister in law was a critical care unit and ICU nurse for a lot of her life. And, and then retired. But anyway, in 2014, my wife contracted double pneumonia, and ARDS, ARDS, oh my gosh. And she ended up in the hospital on a ventilator. And what they were trying to constantly do is to force air into her lungs to try to push out some of the pneumonia. They actually had to use and you'll appreciate this, a peeps level of 39 just to get air into her lungs. They were so stiff. Yeah, they were so stiff. And no one at the hospital had ever seen any situation where they had to use so much air pressure to get air into her lungs to start to move things around and get rid of the pneumonia. Everyone came from around the hospital just to see the gauges.   Donald G. “Skip” Mondragon  29:02 And your they probably told you this risks injuring her lungs because the pressures are so high. But without the weather, we're not going to be able to oxygenate her.   Michael Hingson  29:15 Right. And what they said basically was that if she didn't have pneumonia, her lungs would have exploded with that kind of pressure. Exactly. Because what the average individual when you're inhaling is a peeps level of like between two and five. So 39 was incredibly high.   Donald G. “Skip” Mondragon  29:33 Oh, yes, absolutely. But she's glad she recovered.   Michael Hingson  29:37 She did. We're we're glad about that. She was in the hospital for a month and and she was in an induced coma using propofol and when my gosh when she came out of all that I asked her she dreamed about seeing thriller and bad and all that. I was mean. But but no she ordeal, wow. Well, and that's what eventually caused us to move down here to Southern California to be closer to relatives. But I really appreciated what the doctors did for her. And we're, we're very grateful and fully understand a lot of what goes on with internal medicine and she has a good doctor now that we work with, well, who I both work with, and so on. You're very pleased with that. But you say you're in charge of Internal Medicine. And how long did that last at your first station,   Donald G. “Skip” Mondragon  30:39 first duty station, we arrived in 89. We were there till 92 till summer of 92. So arrived in January 89. I graduated off cycle. And Canton, arrived in, left in summer of 92 went to Walter Reed Army Medical Center. But while I was at Fort Sill was first time I deployed to Operation Desert Shield Desert Storm, my first deployment and it was found out just days, like the week before, that my wife was expecting our fourth child or son Jonathan got home in time, for 11 days before his birth. Thank you, Lord. But that was my first deployment. And that was harrowing in that we were the first major medical group in theater, 47 filled hospital. And we knew that Saddam had chemical weapons, and that is Scud missiles could reach where we were at in Bahrain. So it was it was some harrowing times with that, getting our hospital set up. And knowing that we were well within range of Scud missiles, the alarms that go off and we'd be throwing on our protective gear we call our MOPP gear, our masks and our other other protective gear and these outrageous high temperatures. You know, within a couple of minutes, you were just drenched with sweat pouring off of you. In those those heat in that heat until you'd hear their alarms go off again and all clear. Thankfully, we never were bombed with the Scud. But we were well within the range. And we knew we had used chemical weapons, and we knew they certainly were in this arsenal. So we that was my first deployment. And then Walter Reed where I did a fellowship two years there in Washington, DC, and then we are off to Brooke Army Medical Center. And that was San Antonio, one of my favorite cities, that Fort Sam Houston. And we we were there for four years. And on the heels of that, I was deployed to Haiti for seven months, the last months that we live there, so I've gone I'm just redeploying returning home. And we're in the process of moving. Now we're moving to Fort Hood, Texas. There we spent, actually eight years at Fort Bragg. And there I was, again, chief of the Department of Medicine at Fort Hood, had amazing staff, great people that I worked with wonderful patients everywhere I went this wonderful patients to take care of. And then I was deployed during that time to Operation Iraqi Freedom was, Oh, if one Operation Iraqi Freedom one 2003 2004, stationed up in Missoula, treating caring primarily for the 100 and first Airborne Division aerosols. Major General David Petraeus was a division commander at that time, I got to work closely. My last few months, I was the officer in charge of the hospital, 21st combat support hospital and got to work closely interact with John Petraeus and his staff. Amazing man, amazing staff. incredible experience. Then from there after fort Fort Hood, we went back to Fort Sill, which was an interesting experience because then I was the deputy commander of Clinical Services, the Chief Medical Officer of the hospital. So first time I was there, I was a newly minted captain, new to the army, you know, expect you to know much about the army. Now I go to back to Fort Sill, I'm in the command suite on the Chief Medical Officer of the hospital now as a colonel, they expect you to know air everything. So it was it was interesting. Now, one of the first few days I was there, they give me a tour around to various places and the record group and we're talking and the the records lady, one of the ladies talking to us, telling us about different things and that she She says, You remind me of you remind me of Dr. Longer God, Dr. Monder. God, she had been there the first time I had been there, because we'd have to go down and review our charts and sign our charts on a regular basis. It was, it was amazing. But just some great people that I got to work with over the years, and that our last duty station was in Augusta, Georgia, at the Eisenhower Army Medical Center, where I was again, Chief of Department of Medicine, worked with great people helped train some amazing residents and medical students, PA students.   Donald G. “Skip” Mondragon  35:39 Just some great experiences. And while I was at Eisenhower Army Medical Center, I deployed for the last time to Iraq for another year 2010 to 2011.   Michael Hingson  35:50 How did all of the deployments and I guess you're 26 years in the military in general, but especially your deployments? How did all of that affect you in your life in your family,   Donald G. “Skip” Mondragon  36:02 it gives you a much greater appreciation. Well, a few ways. Certainly a much bigger appreciation for your your family and your time with your family, I lost over three and a half years, 37 months out of the life of my family. And you don't get that time back. No, you don't get that back. So all major these major events that go on your life, seeing things with your children happening. There are no do overs with that that's time last. So you get a better appreciation for that, you also get a better appreciation for the freedoms, the opportunities we have in this nation, when you go to some of those countries realize, you see what poverty can be like, you see how certain citizens are treated, you see women who are treated like cattle, in some cases like property, that the lack of rights, you see these people who want to be able to vote, that it's not just a rigged election, but they actually have a say, in their country's democratic process. The appreciation, and one of the things that was so poignant to Michael was the fact that these so many people, every place I've been whether that's on a mission trip to Guatemala, whether that's in Iraq, whether that was in Bahrain and other places that have been there, how many people would come and say My dream is to go to the US and become a US citizen, I heard that over and over and over again. And when I would get back home, I would feel like kissing the ground. Because I realized, by virtue of being born American, the privileges, the opportunities that I have, are so different than so many people around the world. So gave me appreciation for that. But being deployed, you get to see Army Medicine, practiced in the in the field, because Army Medicine is world class medicine, but you get to see it in the field practice again, in a world class way. It's, it's really mind boggling. Some of the things that we do in a field setting in a combat zone, taking care of soldiers, taking care of other service members, the things that we do, literally world class, not just back in brick and mortar facilities. But they're in the field. Unbelievable. And again, working with great colleagues, amazing staff that I had there, the 21st cache and other places that I've worked. So that appreciation and that idea that you're working for a cause so much greater than yourself, that brotherhood that you have. Now, when you've deployed with people and you've been in combat zone with people, let me tell you, you build some strong bonds.   Michael Hingson  39:15 And it's all about really putting into practice what most of us really can only think about is theory because unless we've been subjected to it and need medical help, or have been involved in the situations like you, it's it's not the same. We're not connected to it. And it's so important, it seems to me to help people understand that connection and the values that you're exactly what you're talking about.   Donald G. “Skip” Mondragon  39:46 Yes, yes. You were asking about the impact on my family. Well think about that. My first time employee My wife has three young children. Adam was six Chris was four. Anjali It was too, and she's expecting our fourth. We're deploying to this war zone that's very uncertain knowing he's got Scud missiles, he's got chemical weapon arsenal, that he's used this. And you're going into this very uncertain war zone. Not knowing when you're coming back home, or even if you're coming back home, all of this uncertainty. The night they announced that, okay, the war had started, that that officially had kicked, kicked off there, that hostilities it started, it was announced on TV. And the kids were at a swimming lesson at the pool, I believe. And somebody came running through some young soldier or something,   Michael Hingson  40:59 the war started, the   Donald G. “Skip” Mondragon  41:00 war has started. And the children all started bawling. And so Sherry's trying to gather them up and she's thinking, What are you doing, you know, trying to gather up the the kids and get them home. But she didn't allow them to listen to any reports do anything. Thankfully, we didn't have a TV at that time by choice. We didn't have a TV for many years. But she didn't allow him to listen to any reports, because she didn't want them to hear these things. But you can think about the uncertainty, you think about missing the events, you think about a spouse having to manage everything at home, taking care of the family, taking care of all the other things there that are involved in managing a household. That's what's left with that, that spouse and then them carrying on without you. So adjusting without you. And then as those children are a different ages, again, all of that, your spouse taking care of that. And your family, adjusting without you. Now if people don't realize they see these idyllic, idyllic reunions, oh, it's great look at they're coming home, and they're hugging and kissing and crying and looking at how wonderful that is. Well, yes, it is wonderful. It's magnificent. You can't believe the elation and the relief. But there's a short little honeymoon phase, if you will. But then the real work begins reintegrating into your family, finding that new normal, how do I fit back into this, they've done with it. They've been without me for several months, or even up to a year. My kids have changed. I've changed Sherry's changed, our family has changed. So how now do we find that normal? And I think that's what a lot of people don't understand that there is that work that needs to be done. And there's a lot of work that needs to be done after it. service members returned home from a deployment, that it's not easy. And it takes its toll. And I don't think that people realize the sacrifice when service members been gone. for months and months at a time years at a time, the sacrifice of that service member the sacrifice of their fam, with every promotion, every award that I received, I used to tell people, my wife, and my kids deserve this a lot more than I do.   Michael Hingson  43:50 And another thing that comes to mind in thinking about this back in the time of Desert Storm, and so on and maybe up into Iraqi Freedom, I would think actually is how were you able to communicate with home.   Donald G. “Skip” Mondragon  44:07 Oh, with your family. And in Desert Storm is primarily snail mail. We did have the occasional call that we can make. Now, as the theater matured and they moved us out of living in tents. We got to move into hardened structure in there. I could make a regular phone call when we got to if there we could, I could send e mail and that became snail mail. And e mail were the primary ways that we connected. The last time I was in Iraq 2010 and 2011. Again, it was email but I could also I had a car that I could charge minutes to that I can Make through an international calling system that I can also place telephone calls. But the primary way became again, snail mail and email to communicate with my family. Today, is   Michael Hingson  45:13 there additional kinds of ways of communicating like zoom or Skype? Yeah.   Donald G. “Skip” Mondragon  45:18 Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Now you're right. They can do face to face zoom. FaceTime there they have, they have their cell phone. So if they're not restricted from using their cell phones, and can even get the international plan and call, we weren't able to do those kinds of things. Yeah. There. Now we did have one thing when I was in Haiti, where it could go into a room. And you could do a as via satellite, it was on a monitor that I could speak to, and they were in this special room there that it was big monitor. But it was a very limited time. And that when that time ended, boom, the screen would just freeze. And the first time it ended like that the kids action starts, started crying because I'm in mid sentence saying something, and I freeze on the screen. And the kids didn't understand what was going on. Yeah. And they was so abrupt that Sherry told me later, can start crying when that happened,   Michael Hingson  46:25 cuz they didn't know they didn't know whether suddenly a bomb dropped or what?   Donald G. “Skip” Mondragon  46:29 Right, right. Yes. It's shocking to them.   Michael Hingson  46:33 Well, all of this obviously takes a toll on anyone who's subjected to it or who gets to do it. And I guess the other side of it is it's an honorable and a wonderful thing to be able to go off and serve people and, and help make the world a better place. But it eventually led to a depression for you, right?   Donald G. “Skip” Mondragon  46:55 Yes, yes. I ended up with major depression. And it culminated on April 17 2014, where I was curled up in a fetal position under the desk in my office. They're laying on that musty carpet. I had gone to work as I normally did, like, get to my office that day early, as was my custom. Nobody else on the whole floor. I locked my office turned on the lights, step inside. And everything just came crashing down on me. I was beat up, beaten down and broken. Should behind me lock the door, turned off the lights, close the blinds. And I crawled under that desk. And then for four hours. I'm asking myself skip, what are you doing? Skip? Why are you here? What happened? You're a tough guy. You're a colonel. You've been in combat zones for over 18 months. Your National Wrestling Champion, you're a tough guy. What happened? Then very slowly, looking at that, and scenes and memories colliding, looking at things, promise, difficulties, and I began to put the pieces together. And finally began to understand the symptoms I was having the past nine months, insomnia, impaired cognition is progressively moving these negative thoughts it just pounded the day and night. You're a fake. You don't deserve to be a colonel, you let your family down. You left the army down, who's gonna want a higher loss of confidence in decision, loss of passion and things that I normally have no interest in resting. Joy, no joy in my life. It's like walking through life in black and white. My body old injuries. Overuse injuries, the osteoarthritis body just a make it even worse. My libido my sex drive was in the toilet. Now you talk about kicking the guy when he's down. And I finally began was able to put those pieces together after four hours. Now I was finally able to understand, said scale. You're depressed? Go get help. And I crawled out from under that desk with a flicker of hope. And later that afternoon, I've seen a clinical psychologist to confirm the diagnosis of major depression.   Michael Hingson  49:25 How come it took so long for you to get to that point? Do you think   Donald G. “Skip” Mondragon  49:30 it was my tough guy mentality? This idea that you just keep pushing through that tough guy identity is like a double edged sword. That tough guys just keep pushing through. There was a lot of things colonel, combat that physician wrestler. So I took on this tough guy persona. And we even have a term for it in wrestling. We call it gutting it out. No matter how hard your lungs and what your lungs burn how much your muscles say, no matter how hard this is, you're just going to keep pushing and pushing. So that was my, that was my modus operandi. That's what I how I operated in my life. You just keep pushing hard and hard and pushing through these difficulties. With it, I couldn't see step back far enough to see what was going on. I knew it felt horrible. I couldn't sleep. I felt badly. I didn't want to be around people. I was withdrawn. But I couldn't step back even as a physician, and put these together to say, Oh, I'm depressed. It's just Oh, keep pushing. And the harder I push, the worse I got. So it was that blindness from that tough guy identity. That there probably some denial going on perhaps. But even as I look back retrospectively, that tough guy mentality just didn't help me. Allow me to see that until it got so crucial where I was just totally depleted. Ended up under that desk.   Michael Hingson  51:11 So how would you define being a tough guy today, as opposed to what you what you thought back then?   Donald G. “Skip” Mondragon  51:20 Yes, yes. Well, there are two sides to a tough guy, Michael, I see a tough guy. Certainly one aspect of the tough guy as that provider protector, that decisive individual, that decisive man that can do things that need to be done now, and can make those tough decisions, no matter what. That's one aspect of so yeah, but that other aspect to hit balances is. So we think of that one tough guy, you might say that's your impart your rugged, individualistic guy that you see that module, tough guy, that the screen portrays at least aspects of that. But then you see this other aspect of that tough guy, this is the individual that has, can be in touch with his emotions, can understand and able to dig there into that and say, Oh, I'm feeling sad. You know, what, somebody what you just said, really hurt. That's, I'm disappointed with that. I'm able to shed tears open, I'm able to show that tenderness that love very openly, but to balance it between the two sides appropriately. That's what I see as a true tough guy. It's not just the one or the other. It's that blend of both that we need in our lives to make us a tough guy. And if you have only one or the other, you're you're not a tough guy. You only have the tenderness and the warmth, and the gentleness and the ability to share your emotions. Well guess what? You're going to be a tough time you're going to run over people can take advantage of they're not going to be much of a protector for those you need to protect. But if you only have that other side of you. You're very limited. You're not going to be able to function in the full array of what we're meant to function in as men or women. Nor women. Absolutely. It's not just restricted to one sex. Absolutely. You're right, Michael.   Michael Hingson  53:51 So you wrote a book wrestling? Depression is not for tough guys. Right? Not for wimps. Yeah, not for wimps. I'm sorry. Wrestling. Depression is pretty tough guys. Wrestling depression is not for wimps. Tell us about that and how it affected you and your family writing that?   Donald G. “Skip” Mondragon  54:11 Well, that book, the genesis of that book came about about six weeks into my recovery, but still struggling. And throughout the time that I was sinking down deeper and deeper into the depression and the first several weeks in my recovery. My prayers had been lowered lower, please, please deliver me from this darkness. But six weeks into my recovery. My youngest brother Chris calls me he had been at a Bible study with Franklin Graham, son of Billy Graham. In Franklin talked about the suffering of Christ. And the gist of what was if Christ suffered so brutally upon that cross why as Western Christians do we think we should be immune from suffering. And over the next two days, the birth that kept coming to my mind was from Philippians. To 13 Paul writes, oh, that I know him, and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings. I knew that verse I knew well, I'd prayed that verse hundreds of times in my walk with Christ, but in the midst of my suffering, I wanted deliverance. But over two days, my prayer shifted from Lord, please, please deliver me, the Lord. What would you have me learn? And how might I use it to serve others. And at that point, I knew I was going to have to share my story. I didn't know how, when but I knew I must share my story. So I began to note what lessons I had learned and what lessons I was learning with the intent of sharing those first time I got to do that was at a officer Professional Development Day, there at the hospital at Eisenhower Medical Center, our session, the morning, our session, the afternoon, and the hospital auditorium. And that became the genesis for my book, I want a writing contest in 2015, your have to retire from the army. And with that came a contract to have my book published. And then it was the process of going through the whole process of writing the book, editing the book, selecting the book, cover, all the things go into book, writing, that book was life transformed. It was transformational to me. And so I learned so many things about myself writing this book.   Michael Hingson  56:41 Did you have fun writing it,   Donald G. “Skip” Mondragon  56:43 I had fun at times. Other times, it was a grind, almost chickened out at the point where we had everything finished. It was ready to go to the publishers and I was I was I was on the cliffs, so to speak. i The book midwife as we called her, the lady is working with Carrie to read love the love with the lady with the company, their Confucian publishing is now called used to be transformational books. I called her and I said, Carrie, I don't know. I think I need to scrap this whole book. I think I need to start over. I can write a much better book. And she goes, No skip. This book is ready. We need to get it birth, we need to extend it to the publisher. And I'm thinking oh, no, no, no, I, I just can in Nice, I need to rewrite this whole thing. I can do a bunch better. This after working. You know, we've been working on this thing for two and a half years getting this thing ready. And I prayed about I'm talking about and then later I called her back in a day and a half and say, okay, Sherry talked me off the cliff. We're gonna send this book forward. But with that, learn things about yourself, going through that access some memories that I hadn't thought about, and some things, some promise that occurred that affected me in profound ways that I didn't realize how much of an impact that had on my life, and for how long that have an impact on my life. Case in point. I lost the state wrestling championship as a senior in high school by two seconds of writing time. Meaning my opponent, Matt Martinez, from greedy West High School knew Matt. There. He beat me by controlling me when he's on the top position for two seconds. He had two seconds more writing time controlling me on that map that I escaped from him three seconds earlier, you wouldn't have any writing time. And we had gotten into overtime. And I believe I would have beat Matt in overtime because nobody, nobody could match my conditioning. But it didn't get to them. So I really that that match. That was probably 10s of 1000s. But what it did is it it really devastated my confidence. And that carried on into my first couple years of college, the College wrestling. Just a lot of things about me. And what I didn't realize it took three and a half years. No, actually five, five years 73 It was 78 and spring of 78 when I was finally healing from that, regaining my mojo. And I didn't realize that until I was writing this book, that profound impact that loss had and the RIP holes, the effects that went on for those successive years there, the profundity of that. And there were other things that I came to light. So there'd be times I'd be laughing. There'd be times I'd be crying. There'd be times I'd be like, Whoa, wow. So it was an amazing experience.   Michael Hingson  1:00:23 So what are some tips that you would give to anyone dealing with depression today?   Donald G. “Skip” Mondragon  1:00:29 Yep. Thank you for asking that. Michael, first and foremost, men, or anybody if you're struggling, don't struggle. One more day in silence, please, please, please go get help to remember, you're never, never, never alone. Three, keep your head up. And wrestling, we talk about this, keep your head up, instill this in our young wrestlers. Why because if they're on their feet, and they drop their head, and get taken down to the mat, if they're down on the mat, the opponent's on top of them and drop their head, they can turn over and pin. But that's also figurative, and emotional, keep your head up. Keep your head up. And I needed people speaking into my life, like my wife, my family, my friends, my therapist, others speaking into my life, it's a skip, keep your head up. Psalm three, three says the Lord is our glory, and the lifter of our heads. So I tell people, you're never ever, ever alone. third, or fourth, I would say attend to the basics, sleep, healthy nutrition. And some regular activity. Those basics are the basics for good reason. And I call them the big three. And probably the most important of all of those, if you're having dysregulation of your sleep is get your sleep back under control. The last few that I'm sorry, go ahead. And then the last few that I would say is make sure you've got a battle buddy. Make sure you have somebody that you can turn to somebody that you can confide in somebody that, you know, would just listen and walk this journey with you and a prescription. And there's many other things that I talked about in my book, but a prescription that I have left with 1000s and 1000s of patients. I've written this on prescription pads. And I've shared this with patients and I say this medication has no bad side effects. This medication has no drug to drug interactions, and you cannot overdose on this medication. So I want you to take this medication liberally each and every day. Proverbs 1722 says A merry heart doeth good, like a medicine. broken spirit. Drive up the boats. When I was depressed, I had a broken spirit. So lack is good nets. So I say each and every day, laugh and laugh hard to find something that you can laugh about. It's goodness.   Michael Hingson  1:03:40 Oh, whenever I want to laugh, all I have to say is I wanted to be a doctor but I didn't have any patients. See?   Donald G. “Skip” Mondragon  1:03:55 Oh, that's great.   Donald G. “Skip” Mondragon  1:03:59 Well, I tell people, in retrospect, I say, gee, if I had only been my own doctor, I would have diagnosed myself sooner. See, well wait, I am a doctor.   Michael Hingson  1:04:15 Or you know what the doctor said Is he sewed himself up Suit yourself. Yeah. I got that from an old inner sanctum radio show. But anyway. Last thing, because we've been going a while and just to at least mention it. You have been a TD X speaker.   Donald G. “Skip” Mondragon  1:04:33 Yes, sir. I was a TEDx speaker. Indeed.   Michael Hingson  1:04:36 I got it that went well. Oh,   Donald G. “Skip” Mondragon  1:04:39 it was amazing. Was a TEDx speaker in Vancouver, in December of 2021. My talk is entitled tough guys are an endangered species. And standing up there on the TEDx phase and stage was a common addition of almost nine months of preparation, our mentor, Roger killin tremendous in helping prepare, myself and some colleagues for this, with the help of his sidekick, Dorthea Hendrik, just lovely, lovely people. But to stand on that stage, and deliver my talk, which is about 12 and a half minutes, started off in about six and a half 17 minutes, get cutting down, cutting it down, cutting it down, but stand there and deliver this message directed to tough guys talking about emotions, and the inability that men often have an accessing our emotions because of the way we've been conditioned, the way we've been raised the expectations placed on us. In fact, there's a medical term that was coined, that's masculine, Alexei timea, which means he leaves without words, and how that then sets men up, that I don't, I'm okay, I don't need help. I don't need to share my feelings and we lose contact with our feelings. Men don't seek medical care as often as women in general, much less when they're struggling with mental health issues, that denial, that tough guy, and now they seek it in maladaptive behaviors. I talked about that. But the ultimate behavior becoming suicide,   Michael Hingson  1:06:39 which is why you have given us a new and much better definition of tough guy. Yes, sir. In the end, it is very clear that wrestling depression is not for wimps. So I get it right that time. There you go. Well, I want to thank you for being here with us on unstoppable mindset. Clearly, you have an unstoppable mindset. And I hope people get inspired by it. And inspired by all the things you've had to say if they'd like to reach out to you. How might they do that?   Donald G. “Skip” Mondragon  1:07:14 The easiest way for them to reach out Michael is go to my website. w w w dot transform, tough guys.com W, W W dot transform Tough guys.com. And there, you could send me a message.   Michael Hingson  1:07:35 Send you a message looking at your book. Are you looking at writing any more books?   Donald G. “Skip” Mondragon  1:07:39 Yes, sir. I am looking to write another book. And still in the making. But I think the next book, maybe wrestling movies is not for wimps.   Michael Hingson  1:07:53 There you go. Well, we want to hear about that when it comes out. And so you have to come back and we can talk more about it.   Donald G. “Skip” Mondragon  1:07:59 Yes, sir. Well, thank   Michael Hingson  1:08:01 you again, skip for being with us on unstoppable mindset. I appreciate it. I appreciate you. And it's easy to say you inspire me and and all that. But I seriously mean it. I think you've offered a lot of good knowledge and good sound advice that people should listen to. And I hope that all of you out there, appreciate this as well. And that you will reach out to www dot transform, tough guys.com and reach out to skip. Also, of course, we'd love to hear from you feel free to email me at Michaelhi at accessibe.com or go to www dot Michaelhingson.com/podcast or wherever you're listening to us. Please give us a five star rating. We appreciate it. We want to hear what you think about the podcast. If you've got suggestions of people who should be on and skip Same to you if you know of anyone else that we ought to have on the podcast would appreciate your, your help in finding more people and more insights that we all can appreciate. So again, thank you for you for being on the podcast with us   Donald G. “Skip” Mondragon  1:09:08 there. My pleasure, Mike. Thank you.   Michael Hingson  1:09:10 Pleasure is mine.   Michael Hingson  1:09:16 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com. accessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

Bradley Akubuiro's parents raised him to have a deep and strong work ethic. His father came to the United States from Nigeria at the age of 17 and worked to put himself through school. As Bradley describes, both about his father as well as about many people in extremely impoverished parts of the world, such individuals develop a strong resilience and wonderful spirit.   Bradley has led media relations and/or public affairs for Fortune 50 companies including Boeing as it returned the grounded 737 MAX to service and United Technologies through a series of mergers that resulted in the creation of Raytheon Technologies. He also served as an advisor to Rev. Jesse Jackson Sr. and to the Republic of Liberia post-civil war. Today Bradley is a partner at Bully Pulpit Interactive, an advisory firm founded by leaders of the Obama-Biden campaign.   As you will see, Bradley is a wonderful and engaging storyteller. He weaves into his stories for us lessons about leadership and good corporate communications. His spirit is refreshing in our world today where we see so much controversy and unnecessary bickering.   I look forward to your comments on this episode.   About the Guest: Bradley is a partner at Bully Pulpit Interactive, an advisory firm founded by leaders of the Obama-Biden campaign. He focuses on corporate reputation, executive communications, and high visibility crisis management and media relations efforts, as well as equity, diversity, and inclusion matters for clients. Bradley has led media relations and/or public affairs for Fortune 50 companies including Boeing as it returned the grounded 737 MAX to service and United Technologies through a series of mergers that resulted in the creation of Raytheon Technologies and has also served as an advisor to Rev. Jesse Jackson Sr. and to the Republic of Liberia post-civil war. A nationally recognized expert in his field, Bradley has been quoted by outlets such as The Wall Street Journal, CNBC, and The Washington Post, and his columns have been featured in Business Insider, Forbes, and Inc. Magazine, where he is a regular contributor. Bradley is a graduate of the Medill School of Journalism at Northwestern University, where he currently sits on the Board of Advisers and serves as an adjunct member of the faculty.   About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app.   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.     Transcription Notes Michael Hingson  00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i  capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson  01:21 Well, hi, everybody. Thank you for joining us on unstoppable mindset today, we have Bradley Akubuiro with us. Bradley is a partner in bully pulpit International. He'll tell us about that. But he's been involved in a variety of things dealing with corporate communications, and has had a lot of adventures. He deals with diversity, equity and inclusion. But most of all, before we started this, he had one question for me. And that is, how much fun are we going to have on this podcast? Well, that really is up to Bradley. So Bradley has some fun.   Bradley Akubuiro  01:56 Michael, thank you so much for having me is is going to be a ton of fun. I'm really excited. Thanks for having me   Michael Hingson  02:01 on. Well, you're you're absolutely welcome. And we're glad that you're here had a chance to learn about you. And we've had a chance to chat some. So why don't we start as often and Lewis Carroll would say at the beginning, and maybe tell me about you growing up and those kinds of things.   Bradley Akubuiro  02:18 Yeah, I'd be happy to do that. And, you know, I think it would be remiss if I didn't start off talking about my parents a little bit before I talked about myself. My dad grew up in the Biafran war in Nigeria, Civil War, Nigeria. And you know, while he was going through school, they were bombing schools, and it wasn't safe for adults to be out. And so, you know, he was the guy in his family at six years old, who was taking crops from their plantation. They grew up maybe about six hours outside of Lagos, Nigeria, and was moving, you know, some of these crops two miles away, to sell in the marketplace. And you know, at a very early age was learning responsibility, not just for himself, but for the family.   Michael Hingson  03:02 Wow. Which is something that more people should do. So what what all did he do? Or how did all that work out?   Bradley Akubuiro  03:09 Yeah. Well, you know, this was a really interesting time in Nigeria's History, where you had a lot of folks who were in this circumstance, and my dad was a really hard worker, his parents were hard workers before him, his father was a pastor. And so he had a certain level of discipline and support in his household. But, you know, he knew that he had this kind of onus on him. So grew up at a time then where not only do you have this responsibility, but a big family, brothers and sisters to take care of. He was the guy who was chosen later, you know, flash forward a few years, to come to the United States, to be able to find an opportunity here in this country, and to be able to always hopefully, give back to his family.   Michael Hingson  03:59 So he came, and How old was he? When he came here?   Bradley Akubuiro  04:03 When he got to the States, he was about 17. So came to New York City, not a lot going on there. And, you know, he had to put himself through   Michael Hingson  04:15 school. Did he know anyone? Or Was anyone sponsoring him? Or how did all that work? He had a little   Bradley Akubuiro  04:20 bit of family here, but he had to find his own way, get a full time job at a gas station, and work to figure out what this country was all about, but also how to be successful here.   Michael Hingson  04:32 Where did he stay when he got here then   Bradley Akubuiro  04:36 got a little apartment up on the kind of Washington Heights Harlem area of New York, little hole in the wall and, you know, continue to work to pay that off while he was trying to pay off school. So not easy, but at the same time, you know, a really, really great opportunity for him to kind of start fresh and create some opportunity for himself and family.   Michael Hingson  04:58 So did he tell him at least With a little bit of money, how did all that work? It's funny, he   Bradley Akubuiro  05:04 asked that question. He did come with some, but it wasn't a lot. Let's start off there. But you know, what's interesting about that is, you know, he put himself through undergrad, put himself through a master's program, you know, and was doing a PhD program over at University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia. And at Penn, he blew through his entire life savings and one semester. And so, you know, was on a great path. You studying engineering, and, you know, a semester and he's like, Oh, what am I going to do ended up going across the street to Drexel, where they were able to bring him in and give him a scholarship, as long as he was one a TA, which he really enjoyed doing. And he was able to put himself through the PhD.   Michael Hingson  05:50 Wow. So he started there as a freshman then   Bradley Akubuiro  05:55 started, so he went to several different schools started in New York. Yep, sorry, started in New York at Hunter College, did a master's program at Clark Atlanta University in Atlanta, and then came up to do his PhD at Penn. And then went to Drexel, and went to Drexel.   Michael Hingson  06:12 He moved around how, how come? What, what took him to Atlanta, for example? Do you know?   Bradley Akubuiro  06:18 Yeah, well, it was the opportunity. You know, one of the things that he had learned and had been instilled in him growing up, which he's passed on to me is, you follow the opportunity where it's and as long as you're not afraid to take that risk and take a chance on yourself and your future that will ultimately more often than not pay off in the end. And so he followed scholarship dollars, he followed the programs that would have an opportunity for him. And he went exactly where it took,   Michael Hingson  06:45 and what were his degrees in.   Bradley Akubuiro  06:47 So his master's degree was in chemistry, his PhD was chemical engineering. Wow. Yeah. What did he What did he do with that? So well, you know, the world was his oyster, I suppose, in some ways, but you know, he ended up you know, going into a couple of different companies started with Calgon, carbon and Pittsburgh, and spent a number of years there and on later on to Lucent Technologies, and fiber optics. And so, you know, he's moved on to a number of different companies, engineering roles, eventually got his MBA and has been, you know, employed a number of different places and continued over his career to work in a number of different geographies as well, whether it's like going to Pittsburgh, New Jersey, Atlanta, Massachusetts. They're now living in Rochester, New York, which I've never lived in. But it's a very charming place. It's, yeah.   Michael Hingson  07:44 It is. It is a nice place. I've been there many times. Yeah. And for customers and so on, it's a fun place to go. Well, he obviously learned in a lot of ways, some might say the hard way, but he learned to value what was going on with him, because it was the only way he was going to be successful. So nothing was handed to him at all, was   Bradley Akubuiro  08:10 it? That's right. He had a very strong family foundation. And he definitely learned a lot from his parents and from his family, and they were very close. So I think that he would say that's what was handed to him, but he certainly didn't give any get any leg up.   Michael Hingson  08:26 Right. Well, that's a good thing to have handed to you, I guess. Well, how did he meet somebody from Gary, Indiana, which is a whole different culture.   Bradley Akubuiro  08:36 Well, this becomes a love story pretty quickly. That's an article.   Michael Hingson  08:42 You can embellish how you want.   Bradley Akubuiro  08:46 Oh, my parents actually met somewhat serendipitously. They were at two different schools. My mom was going to school in Alabama, Alabama a&m. My dad was going to school at the time and Clark, Atlanta and Atlanta. So about four hours apart, Huntsville, Atlanta. My mom's roommate was dating my dad's roommate. And so my mom agreed to come with her roommate to go and visit her boyfriend at the time. She happened to meet this strapping young Nigerian man in Atlanta, and they ended up hitting it off and as fate would have it, the other two their respective movements didn't make the distance but they had a budding romance that ended up lasting now at this point several decades.   Michael Hingson  09:37 Wow. So they're, they're still with us.   Bradley Akubuiro  09:41 They're both still with us   Michael Hingson  09:42 both going strong. That is, that is really cool. So what do you think you learn from them?   Bradley Akubuiro  09:48 I learned a number of things. You know, I learned first of all, and you heard my father's story, resilience. He has learned to take whatever is thrown at been thrown at him. Be able to not only take it in stride, which I think is good, but more importantly, to turn it around and channel it and to use it to his advantage, no matter what that might be. And he's instilled that in me and my two sisters, two sisters, ones, older ones younger. And that's, that's really been important. You know, when it comes to my two parents, the things that they value a ton are education, family. And when you think about the world around you, how are you leaving it in a better place than you found it. And if you can really focus on those handful of things, then you are going to have a very fulfilling and successful life. And that's how he measured success. I've taken that away from them.   Michael Hingson  10:41 He doesn't get better than that. And if you can, if you can say that I want to make a difference. And that I hope I've made at least a little difference. It doesn't get better than that does it?   Bradley Akubuiro  10:53 That's exactly right. So then   Michael Hingson  10:55 you came along. And we won't we won't put any value judgment on that.   Bradley Akubuiro  11:02 Thank you for that we   Michael Hingson  11:03 could have for Yeah, exactly. But actually, before I go to that, have they been back to visit Nigeria at all?   Bradley Akubuiro  11:11 Yeah, absolutely. And unfortunately, the most recent time that my parents took a trip back was the passing of my grandmother, a handful of years ago. And so that brought them back. But, you know, one of the things that I'm hoping to do, and I haven't done it yet, is just spend some real time out there. I've got plenty of family that's still there. So go in and spend a little time in Nigeria that's longer than a quick in and out trip. I spent some time and we've talked about this before Michael, but in West Africa, generally in Liberia. And that was a great experience. But there's not quite like going back to where it all began with your family.   Michael Hingson  11:49 No, it's still not home. Right. Well, so you you came along. And so what was it like growing up in that household and going to high school and all that?   Bradley Akubuiro  12:03 Well, there's a couple ways to answer that. Go ahead. Well, let's put it this way, I we have a very close family bond. And so you know, when you think about the folks who have finished your senses, who laugh at your jokes, because they think it's funny, and if you hadn't told that joke, first, they probably would have told that joke, the kind of family we have. It's a great, great dynamic. And so I was very fortunate to have grown up in that household with parents who truly, truly embraced that that side. You know, it was also a tough household. You know, my parents were very strict, my father, especially coming from this immigrant mindset, and this Nigerian culture, I mentioned the value of education. What I didn't mention quite, but might have been a little bit implied, and I'll say it more explicitly is anything less than an A was entirely unacceptable. There were a number of times where I found myself on the wrong side of that. And, you know, we grew up in different times, as my parents were trying to provide the best life they could for us, and a number of different urban settings. And, you know, one, one period of life for me was particularly studying in high school, where, you know, the school district of Springfield, Massachusetts at a time graduated about 54% of the students that went through that system. And so you're thinking about one in two kids who don't make it out of high school, much less make it the college, much less have a successful and fulfilling career in life. And my father, especially, but of course, both my parents want us to do absolutely everything in their power to ensure that those would not be our statistics that we would be my sisters, and I would be able to have every tool at our disposal to be successful. And they work hard at that, despite the circumstances.   Michael Hingson  14:08 So how were they when I'm sure it happened? It was discovered that maybe you had some gifts, but there were some things that you weren't necessarily as strong as other things. How did that work out for you?   Bradley Akubuiro  14:21 I want to be very clear, the list of things that I wasn't quite as good at, especially in those days, was long enough to stun you. So you know, it we we work through it together, right? I think one of the things that I admire most about my parents now that I maybe didn't appreciate enough growing up was just the amount that they leaned in, and we're willing to be hands on and helping with our education. And so my father would give us times tables when we were in elementary school and make sure that we worked through them. And if we didn't get them quite right, we would do them again, and we do them again, and we do them again. And And I remember a time when I was in the fifth grade where my father had me up until 1am, doing math problems. And, you know, I was thinking to myself, I cannot imagine doing this with my kids, when I was at that age, and then I swore at that time that I never would, I'll tell you what my blood now I swear that I definitely will maybe not till 1am, I think there's probably a more reasonable time. But to be able to invest that level of effort into making sure that your kid has everything they need to be successful. I just have I admire the heck out of it.   Michael Hingson  15:36 I remember a couple of times, I think one when I was oh seven or eight, when we were living in California, and going back to visit relatives in Chicago, or driving somewhere. And my dad said to me, and my brother who was two years older, you guys have to learn the times tables. And we spent time driving, just going through the times tables. And it took me a little while. And a couple of times, I tried a shortcut that messed me up. But eventually I got it all figured out. And he said, when you say the times tables correctly, we'll give you 50 cents. And they did when I got the time two times tables, right? They did. And also, I was learning algebra from him. My dad was an electronics engineer. And so he really worked because I didn't have books in braille early on until I was in the fourth grade, I had to study with them to a large degree. So he taught me a lot more than the schools were teaching little kids as it were. So I learned algebra early, and I learned to do it in my head, and still do. And in high school, it got me in trouble in my freshman year, because my math teacher said, Now whenever you're doing things, you have to show your work. Well, you know, I kept trying to tell her that, for me, showing my work in Braille isn't going to do you any good. I can tell you what I do and how I do it. And she wouldn't accept that and she was going to fail me literally fail me in math. Until one day I wrote out, I think one of the problems and I think just in case she took it and went somewhere where she could find somebody to read Braille. I wrote it out correctly. But I got to see an algebra one because of that one thing. By the way, after that, I never got below an A in math. She was insistent that you had to show your work, and wasn't flexible enough to recognize that there are a lot of ways to show your work. Oh,   Bradley Akubuiro  17:35 yeah. Well, that's part of the challenge, and not to make this an entire commentary on our education system. But there are so many different ways to your point to get to the right answer. And I don't think there's nearly enough flexibility in our system in many cases, except for those who really, truly tried to find it and create that environment for their students. But at a at a you know, broader look, there isn't nearly enough flexibility to appreciate that we're going to have many different ways to get these answers.   Michael Hingson  18:04 I think that really good teachers, and there are a lot of good teachers. But I think the really good teachers make that leap and allow for flexibility in what they do. Because they recognize everyone learns differently. But the big issue is, can you learn and can you demonstrate that you learned?   Bradley Akubuiro  18:24 Yeah, well, that's what we're all striving for.   Michael Hingson  18:27 It is I was pretty blessed going through school, especially in high school, a lot of the times, I would stay after school and extra period to study in the library because again, not everything was available so that we actually had people who would read material to me or give me information that was written on boards that I didn't get any other way. And usually, the teachers would come in, we would set up days and they would come in and give me tests. And what was fun about that was we would go through the tests fairly quickly and spend most of the hour chatting and I got to know a number of my teachers that way and that was so valuable for me. One of them especially Dick herbal Shimer, I still know and you know, he's going to be what 85 I think it is this year, and he will be at five I think August 28. We still keep in touch, he came to our wedding. And he tells me that I'm getting to be closer in age to him and I point out that I'll never be as old as he is. And he tries to convince me that mathematically I'm getting closer and I say 13 years is still 13 years.   Bradley Akubuiro  19:35 Hmm, yeah, don't let them don't let them try to get you. That's   Michael Hingson  19:39 right. It's not gonna work.   Bradley Akubuiro  19:42 was gonna ask you if you had a favorite teacher because I feel like teachers, if you put together this for many years have such an incredible impact on you and how you see yourself.   Michael Hingson  19:52 I remember a lot of things from a number of my teachers and I can tell you the names of most all of my teachers. I remember in my freshman year English, our teacher was a Mr. Wilson has actually Woodrow Wilson was his name was an older gentleman. And one day we were sitting in class and he was just talking about philosophy. And he's talking about people's ethics. And he said, and I remember it that, you know, a good example is, if you need to borrow a quarter from somebody, be sure you pay that quarterback, where does that come in English? But nevertheless, those are the kinds of things that he said, and other teachers said various things, and they stick with you.   Bradley Akubuiro  20:36 Yeah, no, it's so true. I mean, for me, my favorite teacher was Darlene Kaffee. She was my fourth grade teacher, taught all kinds of, I mean, touch everything you learned in fourth grade. But the most important thing for me was, she gave me confidence in my writing ability. You know, I had always enjoyed writing, but I never really thought of myself as someone who could potentially be a writer. And she was the first person who sat me down and said, Hey, look, you submitted this assignment. And it's really good. You could be a writer one day, and you know, she had me write poems, you had me write a number of different things that weren't class assignments. But there were things that she was like, Hey, if you want to do this, then you got to practice it. And I learned so much from her. But the most important thing I took away was that confidence in my ability to do these things.   Michael Hingson  21:27 Yeah, yeah. And that's one of the most important things that good teachers can bring to us and not tear you down, because you don't necessarily do something exactly the way they do or want. But if you can demonstrate you learn that is so cool.   Bradley Akubuiro  21:42 Yeah, it is. Yeah, it is. So,   Michael Hingson  21:47 as I said, I keep in touch with declarable Shimer won his 80th birthday, I flew to Nebraska where they live and surprise him for his birthday, which was nice. That's awesome. Yeah, it was a lot of fun. And hopefully, we'll get back there one of these days soon. Meanwhile, I'll just give him a hard time on the phone.   Bradley Akubuiro  22:08 Cathy's out here listening when I'm not going to surprise you don't listen to Michael. But if I show up, then I'll have a cake or something.   Michael Hingson  22:17 Yeah, exactly. Well, so. So what was high school like for you? I think you said there were some things that happened in high school.   Bradley Akubuiro  22:26 Yeah, high school was a I mean, when you think about formative man, this was a formative experience for me. So it was between my sophomore and junior year of high school, when one of my very best friends a guy who I consider to be like an older brother to me, was shot and killed in the drive by shooting. It was devastating. You know, I had a period over a few months, where not only was he killed, and I found out about it, 45 minutes after I'd left town to take my older sister, with my family to college and 22 hours away. So this wasn't something he did every night. And I likely had been with him had we not been on that trip. But you know, he unfortunately passed that night with a 45 caliber bullet hole in his heart. You know, my experience with school with with life that I mean, it really took a turn at that point. Because not only had I lost somebody who was very close to me, but the police didn't catch the guy who did it. In fact, they caught a guy who was a friend of ours that had absolutely nothing to do with it, and put him through absolute hell, only to find out that he wasn't responsible for this, any of us could have told you that right up front. You know, that was a terrible time. You know, a couple of months later, Michael, we had another one of our close friends who was shot and killed. And the girl who was with her at the time was shot in the leg trying to get away. And you know, and another month and a half after that another one of our good friends was you know, shot in his own driveway trying to get into his car and head to the grocery store. And it wasn't safe for us. And it was a really, really challenging time, just to exist, much less to try to focus on school and to focus on other things that are going on. How could you do that? When you didn't know if when you left in the morning, you were going to be able to make it home at night?   Michael Hingson  24:32 Why was there so much crime? Well, that's   Bradley Akubuiro  24:36 a million dollar question. You know, there's so many factors that go into it. And since then, I've spent a lot of time thinking more about the kind of, you know, macro factors, but it's a very specific on the ground situation at that time was there was a gang war between two rival gangs, street gangs in the city. And my engineer who I just referred to lived right in the heart of Eastern Avenue, which is the home of the app and Springfield became there. And across State Street was Sycamore and a number of different folks and rivalries had kind of established then. And so, you know, this was not that there's ever, you know, really sensical reasons that, you know, these things happen. But this was as nonsensical as it could be, you know, people who are killing each other and dying for reasons that if you were to ask those who survived now, why they would ever pull a trigger and situation like this, they probably couldn't really tell you or maybe even remember.   Michael Hingson  25:38 So it wasn't race or anything like that. It was just the whole gang environment, mostly.   Bradley Akubuiro  25:45 Yeah, that's right. And at the time, you know, you think about the economic factors that go into this. And I talked about this in the context of Chicago all the time, because that's where I live now. And the situation is just as salient here. But if you were to be on the west side of Chicago, Northwestern most neighborhood within the city limits of Austin, you would be in one of the poorest and one of the most dangerous zip codes in the industrialized world. If you were to go two miles over to Oak Park, one of the suburbs just outside of the city. It's one of the wealthiest in the region, and it is an amazing neighborhood, and the infrastructure across the board when it comes to the education system, and the amount of money per pupil. If you were to look at the crime statistics, if you were to look at the policing, if you were to look at any measure of quality of life, it is night and day different, but it's separated by a couple of streets. And that to me is unfathomable.   Michael Hingson  26:52 It is crazy. Chris, you also have some really serious gangs back in Chicago. You know, the notorious was the cubs in the Sox, for example.   Bradley Akubuiro  27:03 That's right. And you know what the competition? beaters? You don't get in the middle of those two sets of fans?   Michael Hingson  27:09 Ah, no way. and never the twain shall meet, period. That's right. That's very many people who will say they're fans of both.   Bradley Akubuiro  27:20 I don't think that's legal, actually. Ah,   Michael Hingson  27:23 that would explain it. I'll tell you sports fans are really tough. I remember when I lived in Winthrop, mass right outside of Boston. And every year, I would on opening day, I'd be somewhere in Boston. And if the Red Sox lost immediately, basically everybody on the news and everyone else just said wait till next year. Yeah, they were done. It was no faith at all. It was amazing. And and I remember living back there when Steve Grogan was booed off out of the Patriots game one year and just I'll tell you, they're, they're amazing.   Bradley Akubuiro  28:04 Well look at the dynasties they've gotten now. Unbelievable. Although, you know, I live with a die hard. Tom Brady fan. My fiance has been a Patriots fan since the beginning. And it's been a complete complete nightmare trying to figure out are we watching the Patriots? Are we are we watching the Buccaneers? And are we Tom Brady fans are Patriots fans? You know, it's a little bit of everything in that house. But I can't ever say that I'm not happy. I am a fully dedicated supporter of all things. Somebody in SNAP, otherwise, I'm in a   Michael Hingson  28:39 lot of trouble. It is safer that way. Well, I have gained a lot of respect for Tom Brady, especially after he left the Patriots. And not because I disliked the Patriots, but because of all the scandals and the deflated footballs and all that sort of stuff. But he came back and he proved Hey, you know, it's not what you think at all. I really am good. And he continues to be good.   Bradley Akubuiro  29:03 Yeah, it's 100%. Right. Well, and that to make this, you know, given a broader topic about Tom Brady, he gets plenty of press. But you know, the fact that he was able to say, All right, you have decided that I'm done in this sport. You've decided I'm too old to play this sport, but I have not run to the end of my capability. And in fact, I've got a lot more to offer this game. And he went and he took it with someone who would respect that and the Buccaneers and he won another championship. I mean, you can't you can't make this up.   Michael Hingson  29:38 No, absolutely. You can't. And so we'll see what the Rams do this year. I liked the Rams. I grew up with the Rams, Chris, I'm really prejudiced when it comes to sports and probably a number of things because we've been blessed out here in California with great sports announcers. I mean, of course, Vin Scully, the best of all time in baseball, and I will argue that with anyone But then Dick Enberg did a lot of football and he did the rams and he did the angels. And of course we had Chick Hearn who did the Lakers, their descriptions and the way they did it, especially Vinnie just drew you in. And I've listened and listened to announcers all over the country and never got the kinds of pictures and announced me announcing and announcements that I got by listening to people in California, so I'm a little prejudiced that way.   Bradley Akubuiro  30:31 Well, and you shouldn't be you absolutely should be. And I will say this, the power of storytelling that these folks that you just described are able to wield is phenomenal. And it's a skill that I actually wish more folks had and more different industries. Because if you can tell a strong compelling story, you can make it visual, you can bring people and like that the power it has to bring people together, and to motivate them to act is just unbelievable.   Michael Hingson  31:01 Johnny most was a was a good announcer a pretty great announcer in basketball, but not really so much into the storytelling, but he had a personality that drew you in as well. Well, that counts for a lot. It does. I remember living back there when the Celts were playing the rockets for the championship. And the Celtics lost the first two games. And Johnny most was having a field day picking on the rockets and so on. But Moses Malone, Malone was criticizing the Celtics and said, You know, I can go get for high school people. And we could beat these guys. Wrong thing to say, because then the Celts came back and won the next for Johnny most really had a field day with that. That's what happens. Yeah, you don't open your mouth. Alright, so you went to Northwestern, that's a whole different environment.   Bradley Akubuiro  31:59 Totally different environment. And, you know, I gotta tell you, I owe a ton to Northwestern. The exposure, it gave me two more global mindsets, people come to that university from all over the world, all kinds of different socioeconomic backgrounds, and looking to do so many different things, the academic rigor of the institution, and the resources that were at our disposal, were so incredible that it completely changed my experience. And frankly, the outlook I had for my own self and career. How so? Well, I'll put his way I went to school, for example, at the same time, as you know, students who had some similar backgrounds to the one I did, to being in school at the same time, as you know, Howard Buffett is the grandson of Warren Buffett, and you know, Bill polti, you know, whose grandson of, you know, the polti, you know, the namesake of Pulte Homes, and you know, literally billionaire families. And so you start to realize, if you can sit in a classroom with folks like this, and with all of the opportunities that they've had, the education, they've had private schools, things along those lines, and these are good friends, by the way, you know, when you can do that, and then realize, hey, you know what, I can keep up, I can do this. And then you know, you are receiving, you know, grades professors who support you opportunities, in terms of internships, all of these things, and realms that you never even considered possible even just a year or two earlier. It truly broadens your horizons in ways that I don't even think I could have appreciated before I was into it.   Michael Hingson  33:44 Wow. And that makes a lot of sense, though. We're all we're all people. And we all have our own gifts. And the fact that you could compete is probably not necessarily the best word because it implies that there are things that we don't need to have, but you are all able to work together and that you can all succeed. That's as good as it gets.   Bradley Akubuiro  34:05 That's exactly right. And I do find compared to a lot of places, Northwestern have a very collaborative culture. I found that, you know, from faculty, the staff to students, everybody was very interested in seeing everybody succeed. And you know, we believed truthfully, that all of us could there's enough room on the boat for all of us.   Michael Hingson  34:29 What was your major journalism? No surprise being Northwestern?   Bradley Akubuiro  34:36 Yeah, I was I was a big, big, big proponent of the journalism school and actually still remain affiliated. I'm on the faculty over there and sit on the board of the journalism school and have loved every second of my time, wearing the purple t shirt.   Michael Hingson  34:52 There you go. Is my recollection. Correct? Wasn't Charlton Heston, a graduate of Northwestern?   Bradley Akubuiro  34:57 You know, I don't know the answer to that but I will wouldn't be surprised if it really seems,   Michael Hingson  35:02 it seems to me, I heard that he was doing something where he was he was doing something for Northwestern, as I recall. But that just strikes my memory.   Bradley Akubuiro  35:12 Yeah, there's some very remarkable graduates from that organization.   Michael Hingson  35:16 So you were involved, as I recall, in our conversations about and about such things in dealing with minority enrollment, and so on, and you met some pretty interesting people during your time there. Tell me about that, if you would?   Bradley Akubuiro  35:32 Yeah, no, absolutely. So my freshman year, we will actually, this was my sophomore year, we actually only brought in 81 black freshmen. And that was the lowest number in terms of black enrollment in a given year at Northwestern since the 1960s. And so, you know, the university was looking around and trying to figure out what what is it that we're doing? And where are we missing the mark? And how do we not only attract black applicants, because we were able to get folks to apply? The challenge was to actually get them to choose to matriculate. And where are we losing folks in the process. And so, you know, I had been really, really interested in participating in some of the work around minority recruitment enrollment, from the time that Northwestern had recruited me, because I recognized my background wasn't necessarily what you would consider to be orthodox for the folks that got into schools like this. But they took a real hard look at me and said, We think this guy can be successful here. And I wanted to encourage others who might not necessarily think of Northwestern as an option that was attainable to them, and I don't even know about it, to really start to understand the opportunities that could be available to them. And so I was, you know, flying to different schools, not only in the Chicago area, but back in places that looked a lot like where I grew up, and telling, you know, folks, Northwestern wants you, and you should really give it a shot. And so that was a fascinating time for me, and my own development, that space.   Michael Hingson  37:11 So what did you do for the school and dealing with the whole issue of minorities in that time?   Bradley Akubuiro  37:19 Yeah, there were a handful of things. You know, there's there's one was how do you create programs that channel some of the frustration that a lot of students who look like me had, and so a number of folks, actually, this is the spirit of college students, gotten together, you know, put up signs and decided to kind of protest. And so instead of going through, and just kind of registering our anger, what I did was work with the admissions office. And I did actually formally work as a work study student and worked on some of the stuff, it wasn't just volunteer, but take this energy that the students had, and create programs like a pen pal program, like a fly in programs, some volunteer initiatives that we can have, that would allow students who are upset about the outcomes, to help change those outcomes by direct engagement with those who might come to Northwestern, and really improve our metrics for the following year. And we were able to do that, both in the African American and Latino communities. What did   Michael Hingson  38:23 you discover? Or what did the university discover about why people might apply, but then didn't matriculate. And then how did you turn that around?   Bradley Akubuiro  38:32 Yeah, there were a couple of things. So one was, for students who are getting into places like Northwestern, very commonly, we saw that they were getting into places like University of Pennsylvania, Stanford, Harvard, a number of other universities at the same time, particularly if you were to think about the minority students who are applying and getting in, and what those schools had, that Northwestern didn't quite have, was full need blind admissions processes, which Northwestern did adopt. But the short version of this is, if you got into one of those schools, you are probably going to be able to get if this if your circumstances required a full ride. And so, you know, the economic opportunity was really significant. And you were at a disadvantage. If you were a student who was interested in going to Northwestern, or any of these other schools that was really good, but couldn't you couldn't afford to go and you're gonna go to the place that you could afford to go and maybe that's your local school, or maybe that's one of these other schools, but we had to really do something to create the funding to ensure that these folks could go to the school and do it at a at a rate that wasn't going to break the bag.   Michael Hingson  39:49 And you found ways to do that. Well, I   Bradley Akubuiro  39:52 certainly didn't do it alone, but the university   39:55 there see University found ways to do that. Yes, that's right.   40:00 We started up a commission. So a number of students, myself included, foreign petition at the time, Marty Shapiro, who was the President of University took this issue very seriously as a economic scholar, and genuinely his background is in the economics of higher education. And he started at the school as president, while I was in again, my sophomore year, as a lot of these things were kind of taking shape and taking hold. And as one of the most successful leaders that I've met, invited us in students, the leaders in the university who are focused on this, and we had asked for a taskforce to focus on this. And he set one up, and he chaired it. And it was focused on how do we create opportunities for access, particularly for this community that had need, but wanted to be here. And, you know, one of the things that he did pretty early on in his tenure, was to establish a fund that was going to be dedicated to programs to financial need to a number of different things that would directly address this community. And we built on it from there.   41:14 Wow, that's, it's great that you had a strong champion who was willing to be farsighted enough to help with that, isn't it?   Bradley Akubuiro  41:22 Absolutely. It would not have been possible without that.   Michael Hingson  41:25 So you met as I recall you saying Jesse Jackson, somewhere along the way? in that arena, especially since you're in the Chicago area? That makes a lot of sense.   Bradley Akubuiro  41:35 Yeah, you know what I'm starting to put together thanks to you hear that this was a pretty big year for me.   Michael Hingson  41:41 To see, I'm getting impressed. So I did about yourself.   Bradley Akubuiro  41:50 You know, it's funny. But yeah, there was a convergence of things. And so in this particular year, I did meet Reverend Jesse Jackson. And this started a relationship that's been incredible and life changing that remains to this day. But the way that it happened, Michael, is that there was a woman Roxana Saberi, who had been taken political prisoner by Iran, and she worked for the BBC. She had been a former Northwestern middle student. So a number of us who are part of the journalism program, Adele had decided that we were going to get together and as college students are wanting to do, we decided to protest and hopes that we would, on our campus in Evanston, get the State Department to pay more attention to this particular issue. And hopefully, it takes negotiating for her really seriously. And while I have no idea whether, at the time Secretary Clinton saw anything we were doing, my guess, is probably not Reverend Jackson, who to your point was just on the other side of Chicago did. And the connection there is Roxanne's buried, did her first interview with the BBC as a professional reporter with Reverend Jesse Jackson. And he was committed to advocating for her release. And so he actually reached out to us, via the university asked a few of us to come down and join a press conference with him, where he intended to go and negotiate for her release on humanitarian grounds. And I participated in that with another student. And it was absolutely phenomenal and led to so many doors being opened for me.   Michael Hingson  43:35 Wow, what your were you in school at the time?   Bradley Akubuiro  43:38 So this was my sophomore year. Great, great. Again, still part of the great sophomore year. Yeah, and I continue to work with Reverend Jackson, throughout the remainder of my time in college and for some period after college. But there were a number of things, but it all tied back together, because the issue that Reverend Jackson was advocating for at the time that spoke most deeply to me, was this issue of college affordability and access, and you have this program called reduce the rate, which was all about reducing the interest rate on student education loans, because we had bailed out banks. And you know, the autos and so many others, rates of zero to 1% and said, Hey, you're in trouble pass back when you're ready. We'll make it cheap and affordable for you to do that. But we never granted that level of grace to students who are supposed to be our future. And instead, we were breaking their backs was, you know, interest rates of six to in some cases, as high as 18%. Without any, you know, kind of recourse you get stuck with these things for life.   Michael Hingson  44:47 And people wonder why we keep talking about eliminating the loans today or lowering the interest rate and the reality is, as you said, students are our future and we should be doing all we can to say point that that's absolutely   Bradley Akubuiro  45:01 right. I still firmly believe that and, you know, our loan system, and frankly, the cost of education is just crippling. It's, it's, it's crazy. And this is for multiple generations. And I'm sad for what the future will look like if we can't figure this situation out.   Michael Hingson  45:23 Yeah, we've got to do something different than we're doing. And it's just kind of crazy the way it is. It's extremely unfortunate. Well, so you got a bachelor's? Did you go get any advanced degree or?   Bradley Akubuiro  45:36 Well, I did actually attend Northwestern. For a good portion, I masters that integrated the integrated marketing communications program over there. And that dovetails really well into where my career ultimately went and where it currently resides. But you know, Northwestern was the educator of choice for me.   Michael Hingson  45:57 So, career wise, so what did you then go off and do? Since you opened the door? Yeah.   Bradley Akubuiro  46:03 So you know, it's been a number of different things. And this will sound disparate, but it all comes together. I went, after working with Reverend Jackson to Liberia, and I spent time in Liberia working for the president of Liberia on postwar kind of reestablishment of a democracy, which was a big thing. And frankly, way above my paygrade, I got an opportunity to work on it, because I had spent time working with Reverend Jesse Jackson, and that will come back in a second. But there was a student who was doing his PhD program at Northwestern, who had been who is I should say, the grandson of a former president of Liberia, who had been killed in a coup in October. And I had been friends with him, I knew that I wanted to get to West Africa to do some work, particularly around education and social programs. And he connected me with his mother who had been deputy minister of education. And I had been fortunate enough to create an arrangement that I was really excited about to go to Monrovia, and Liberia, the capital city, and to spend some time working on programs out there. And when she found out that I worked with Reverend Jesse Jackson, she called the president and said, This could be a great opportunity. And they cooked up a program where I would actually champion and work on establishing a program and policy around leadership development, and capacity building for the country post Civil War, which was, again, an absolutely amazing and life changing experience, really hard.   Michael Hingson  47:45 What was the world like over there? And what was it like for you being from a completely different culture as it were than over in Liberia?   Bradley Akubuiro  47:53 Well, the first thing I'll say is, if you live in the United States, and you believe, you know, poverty, you ain't seen nothing yet. Because, you know, one of the things that you will find in countries like Liberia, and some of the places and post war, Eastern Europe and the 90s, and different kinds of places is, there is a level of resilience and a level of spirit that is built into society that comes almost entirely from experience with incredible hardship, just absolutely incredible hardship. And Liberia at the time that I was over there was amongst the, you know, five poorest countries in the world, after what had been 14 years of concrete civil war and 30 years of civil unrest. But the people that I met could not have been better spirited, and just nicer, more optimistic and incredible people.   Michael Hingson  48:52 So how long were you over there?   48:54 I was over there for less than a year and spent some time doing consulting, even after I came back to DC, but was on the ground for less than a year.   49:03 And when you came back from Liberia, what did you go off and do?   49:07 When I came back from Liberia and I want to, you know, couch this and my rationale, I had worked for Reverend Jesse Jackson on these big kind of global programs that that presidents and heads of state and you know, business leaders and all these different folks went over to Liberia and got this chance to work on, you know, kind of reinstituting a democracy and meaningful ways with the president who later on became a Nobel Prize, Peace Prize Laureate. And you know, what I came to realize, Michael, was that my opportunities were quickly outpacing my experience. And so what I said is, let's now try to find a place where I can get some of the fundamentals some of the framework for a lot of the work that I had the opportunity to do. And the place that I chose to go is Booz Allen Hamilton is a management consulting firm and you One of the largest public sector practices in the world. And so I went in with the intention of really being able to shore up my skills. And what happened? Well, hopefully they'll tell you that I was successful.   Michael Hingson  50:11 Okay, good.   Bradley Akubuiro  50:16 It was a really fascinating time to be there. You know, Booz Allen, had a lot of significant contracts. This was the time of the Affordable Care Act's passage. And so, you know, at the time that I went over, I got to work almost exclusively on ACA, and a lot is talked about in terms of the legislative kind of process to get that accomplished. But what is talked a lot less about is the actual opera operationalization of it, and what that looks like to stand up state health exchanges, and different states to actually entice somebody coming from, you know, a psychiatry program at top medical school, that choose to put on a uniform and go to a base at, you know, an Air Force base or an army base, and provide clinical care for those who are returning from war in Iraq and Afghanistan. And all of these were provisions of the bill. But actually implementing those things, was a very tall order. And so I got an opportunity to really kind of roll up my sleeves and work on a lot of that work. And that was incredibly formative work.   Michael Hingson  51:22 So it was a real challenge, of course, to get the Affordable Care Act passed. I remember in 2009, I was speaking at a an event for a companies whose hospital boards and leaders of the staffs of the hospitals in the network, were getting together and I went to, to speak, and talk about some of my experiences and talk about disabilities and so on. The person right before me, was a medical expert. He was, it was a person who talked about the whole concept of how we needed to change our whole idea and environment of medical care, and what we really needed to do as a country and so on. And he had been involved in every president's investigation of how to change the medical synth system. Ever since I think he went this was 2009, I think he went back to Nixon, Oh, wow. He, he said it all came down to the same thing. And he said The best example is, he was doing this as part of the team for Bill Clinton. And they talked about what needed to be done, how to change the medical system, and everybody bought into it, and so on, until it got down to specifics of saying what it was going to cost. And that they needed to deal with some of the provisions that eventually went into the Affordable Care Act. And he said, As soon as the politicians got a hold of it, and said, This is a horrible thing, you're gonna cause too much controversy, the President's would all run. And that's why no one ever got anything accomplished. And he also said that Obama was probably going to get something passed. And he actually predicted almost to a tee, if you will, what was going to pass. And that's exactly what passed and what didn't pass. And he said, later, we'll actually start to worry about the cost of, of medical coverage in this country, but they're not really willing to face that issue yet. And he predicted we would be able to do something by 2015. Well, that hasn't really happened yet, either. And now we're maybe making a little bit of a dent. But it was very fascinating to listen to him predict, based on so many years of expertise, what was going to happen.   Bradley Akubuiro  53:46 Yeah, I mean, that's incredible. And I will say, a lot of times the policy takes a backseat to the politics on these things. And it takes so much, you know, Will and kind of moral fortitude to get in there and drive these things, particularly when there's interests on the other side of it. But you know, I'm with you. We're not quite where I think you predicted we'd be in 2015. But driving towards it now. And hopefully we'll make more progress.   Michael Hingson  54:16 Yeah, we're slowly getting there. So what did you do after Booz Allen Hamilton?   Bradley Akubuiro  54:21 Yeah, so the things that I really love the most about that work during that time that the the change in a lot of that kind of management strategy was the change communications aspects of it. And so I knew that I wanted to get more fully into communications. And so the next few jobs for me, were discretely corporate communications, if you will. And so I got an opportunity to follow a mentor to a company called Pratt and Whitney jet engine company, you know, builds jet engines from from fighter jets to, you know, the big commercial airplanes that we fly in, and love that experience. It's moved to kind of the corporate side of that company to United Technologies in time and worked on a number of different mergers and acquisitions, including the spin offs of Otis, the big Elevator Company to carry air conditioning both of these which spun off into fortune 200 publicly traded companies their own, to ultimately what became you know, the merger with Raytheon. Raytheon? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It most recently produced Raytheon technologies. And so a really, really fascinating set of experiences for me there. And then   Michael Hingson  55:35 you along the way, also, I guess, we're part of the formation of bully pulpit international with the Obama Biden administration.   Bradley Akubuiro  55:44 You know, I wasn't part of the founding, this all kind of happened in parallel with folks who I have a ton of respect for who I now work with bully pulpit, interact was formed in 2009, with a number of folks who came out of that Obama campaign, and then White House. And it started in the kind of digital marketing, digital persuasion space, and all of the kind of, you know, really amazing tactics and strategies that they learned on that campaign, particularly, as social media was starting to become more popularized and more mass adopted, they said, how do we start to apply some of that stuff, as you think about not only other campaigns, but to foundations and advocacy groups into corporations? And you know, you flash forward 1213 years now, and this is a fully operational 250 person agency, where we're focused on, you know, how do you help organizations of all types, you know, really express their values and find their voices on these really key important issues. But also, how do leaders make really tough decisions on things like, you know, Roe v. Wade, and what that means for their employee base, and what they're going to do policy wise, and how they're going to communicate around that afterwards? On through gun reform, and what folks do if you know, you are operating, and buffalo or in Texas, when you know, some of the massacres that happened earlier this year happen. And this has been, you know, really fascinating. And I came over here after being chief spokesperson for Boeing. And it's been really fun to reunite with some old friends and folks who have been doing this kind of work for a really long time now.   Michael Hingson  57:37 So Boeing, so when did you leave Boeing   Bradley Akubuiro  57:41 left Boeing, a year, just shy of a year and a half go   Michael Hingson  57:45 around during the whole 737 Max thing?   Bradley Akubuiro  57:49 Well, you know, interestingly, you bring this up, I was brought over to Boeing, in response to the 737. Max, you know, I was asked to come over and to really think about what does a world class Media Relations organization look like? That is going to be transparent, accountable, and 24/7? Around the globe? And more than anything, after you've had, you know, two accidents on the scale that they had, you know, how do we really become more human and how we interact with all of our stakeholders, internal and external on a lot of this stuff? And that was a really, really, really challenging, but rewarding process to be part of and to help lead?   Michael Hingson  58:33 How do you advise people? Or what do you advise people in those kinds of situations, you had a major crisis? And clearly, there's an issue? What do you what do you tell corporate executives to do? And how hard was it to get them to do it?   Bradley Akubuiro  58:49 Yeah. So on the first part of that question, it really comes down to being human, you got to put yourself in the shoes of the people that you're trying to communicate with, and to, if you are a person who lost a loved one, on a plane that went down outside of, you know, Addis Ababa, and Ethiopia, if you if you were, you know, one of the people who lost your, your spouse or your kid, you know, the last thing you want to hear from a company is, you know, we did things right, from an engineering standpoint, what you want to hear from that company, is, we are so sorry that this happened. And we're going to do absolutely everything in our power to ensure it can never happen again. And here are the steps we're taking and here's what we're going to do to try to make things right and you can never completely make things right. In that circumstance. You can at least be understanding.   Michael Hingson  59:48 I remember 1982 When we had the Tylenol cyanide incident, you know about that. Yeah. And if For us, and what was the most impressive thing about that was within two days, the president of company was out in front of it. And as you said, being human, that's a corporate lesson that more people really should learn.   Bradley Akubuiro  1:00:18 Yeah, it's a difficult thing to do. Because I think, and this isn't just lawyers, but it's easy to blame it on lawyers, the natural reaction is to immediately think, well, what's my liability going to be? What are people going to think if they think that I actually did make this mistake? And how do I cover it up? And how do I try to diffuse responsibility? And that is exactly the opposite of what you should do. And this isn't just good communications. This is good leadership.   Michael Hingson  1:00:44 Good leadership. Yeah,   Bradley Akubuiro  1:00:45 that's right. And we need more people to really understand that to your point.   Michael Hingson  1:00:50 Well, and with with Boeing, it sounds like if I recall, all of the stuff that least that we saw on the news, which may or may not have been totally accurate, there were some issues. And it took a while to deal with some of that to get people to, to face what occurred that necessarily things weren't going exactly the way they really should have in terms of what people were communicating and what people knew and didn't know.   Bradley Akubuiro  1:01:15 Yeah, well, then you ask the question, how difficult was it to get the senior executives to get on board with the new approach. And what I would say is, and this goes back to some of we were talking about earlier, the top down kind of approach to this, and what's happening and the most senior role matters the most. And the CEO who came in this was after the former CEO was was like, you know, the chief legal officer, the head of that business, and a number of different executives, you keep going on, had exited the company, the new CEO, who came in they've Calhoun, currently is still the CEO, they're brought in this new wave, this refreshing new approach and culture, and was all about how do we ensure that we are being accountable, and that we're being transparent, because that is what matters in this circumstance. And so with that license to operate, it was a lot easier to come in and convince folks Well, this is how we should approach this from a media perspective, from a communications staff perspective, and across the board, with our customers with regulators, cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Because everybody was on board that this is what we needed to do. And frankly, it's the only way to not only repair our reputation, because this is 100 year old company has been at the first of so many different things historically, from an aviation standpoint, and helped truly invent modern flight. So how do you create a reputation that people expect coming out of that, but also to respect again, those who trusted the company, because when you step on a fly, you know, you know, as Michael, when you stop on a flight, you don't want to think about whether it's gonna make it to the other side or not. You want to trust that it's gonna make it to the other side and focus on what you got to do when you get there and everything else in your life. And people had for a brief period of time lost that faith. And that is what we were really trying to restore.   Michael Hingson  1:03:15 Do you think you were pretty successful at getting faith and confidence restored,   Bradley Akubuiro  1:03:20 I think we've made a good start at bone still remains a client. And I would say that the work that is ongoing is going to take time, because it takes five seconds to lose your reputation. It takes a long time to rebuild it and to regain trust. And I think the company is committed to what it needs to do to do that. But it is a journey.   Michael Hingson  1:03:44 What do you advise people today you do a lot of consulting, and you're in

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In this episode, I have the pleasure of meeting and talking with Yonty Friesem. Yonty is an Associate Professor of communication and founding director of the MA in civic media at Columbia College Chicago. He was born in Israel and moved to the states as his career and vistas expanded.   You get to hear his own life story, but even more important, he will describe the concepts of Civic Media as well as what digital empathy is all about. He will tell us about his long run as a teacher and will tell us how he has worked and continues to work to break down the communication barriers. I hope you enjoy our conversation.   Also, have you yet noticed that we are now releasing two episodes of Unstoppable Mindset each week? Yonty's episode is the second one in our second week of two episodes a week. Now twice as much Unstoppable Mindset as before. You also can now find Unstoppable Mindset on Youtube. I hope you like the additions. Please let me know your thoughts, comments, and suggestions.     About the Guest: Yonty Friesem is an Associate Professor of communication and founding director of the MA in civic media at Columbia College Chicago. Yonty provides professional development for media educators in their role as the Associate Director of the Media Education Lab. Their publications in academic and professional journals include the theory of empathic dialogs via media Yonty calls digital empathy, evaluation of various civic media programs, and explorations of implementing digital and media literacy in schools.       About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is an Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app.   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.     Transcription Notes UM Intro/Outro  00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i  capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.     Michael Hingson  01:20 You are listening to another episode of unstoppable mindset. Welcome on board. Glad you're here with us. Today we are having the opportunity to chat with Yonty Friesem and Yonty is a very knowledgeable person on inclusion and equity and diversity. He understands a lot about accessibility, and we're going to get into why and what that's all about as well as a lot of other things about him as we go forward. So Yonty welcome aboard unstoppable mindset.   Yonty Friesem  01:51 Thank you. My pleasure.   Michael Hingson  01:53 So why don't you start a little bit by telling us just about yourself. Oh, wow. I know it started at a log cabin in Illinois, right?   Yonty Friesem  02:03 Yeah. So from an accent you can see that, you know, I'm not local, to say the least I grew up in Israel. Until my 30s, when I looked to have a PhD, to support media educators after being an educator myself and feeling that there's not enough support. And then I came to Temple University, then moved to University of Rhode Island, I followed my advisor, Dr. Renee hops, to learn about media education and media literacy. And from there, I got, you know, different jobs. And now I met Columbia College, Chicago, just got tenure and promoted to associate professor, and very happy to be able to found the MA in civic media, the MA in strategic communication, and the bachelor in communication, as I'm working with other educators and supporting in different initiatives. So that's basically my background.   Michael Hingson  03:03 Ma is Master of Arts. Yes. Uh huh. So, you, you have been doing this a little bit and certainly gotten a little bit of expertise and knowledge about the whole process. How did you get into dealing at all with the whole concept of universal design when it comes to media and dealing with accessibility and some of the issues surrounding that?   Yonty Friesem  03:30 So during my PhD program, I was working in Rhode Island, and I met a dear friend called Janine Chartier, who is the CEO of art equity now, but it was VSA arts, Rhode Island, the Rhode Island branch from the Kennedy sponsored by the Kennedy Center. And as we work together on having students who have a variety of disability, getting art education, and from my, you know, expertise, media education, she introduced me to Universal Design for Learning as part of the work and also since we were asked to provide professional development for educators. And so that goes back to like, almost 10 years ago, when we did that, and start to work together to figure it out, how to help students but also how to help educators to understand how to implement it.   Michael Hingson  04:36 So can you tell us a little bit about a little bit more about what Universal Design means or, or dealing with accessibility when it comes to filming and fine arts and so on?   Yonty Friesem  04:50 Sure. So, Universal Design for Learning is the equivalent of universal design meaning you design for accessible ability, but then it's really to apply for a variety of needs. And to accommodate that. So when it comes to learning, the idea is to look at the way that the mind is a little bit, you know, different in each one of us and our wiring is different. So we might have a disability, like I have ADHD. And so my mind look and learn differently than somebody else. And also ADHD, there's such a variety of it. So the idea of universal design for learning has three basic things, which is always offer multiple ways of engaging with your students, multiple ways of perception of the information and multiple ways of expressing that you learn that knowledge. And so understanding that framework, which is again, very general, and there's more specifics, that helps you really address all your students. So when we're talking about media education in my field, that means engagement in a variety of ways, a variety of media. So even if I'm, for example, I was a film teacher in high school, back in 2001. But it doesn't mean that I only engage with films or videos, I also use podcasts, I also use drawing, I use different ways to engage the students different tactics of engagement. And in perception, it's a show the same information in different ways. So that can be you know, back then I was projecting on the wall, I could draw on the wall, there were different, like ways that I would do it. And then the last thing is different way of expression. So we're used to like there is an exam. Everybody is writing on paper. But what about offering different ways. So if I'm a media educator, maybe some of my students and I've been doing it at Columbia College Chicago for several years now in advocating for other faculty to do the same. I give my students the questions, and they choose how to answer them as long as they actually answer them. So they can record themselves. They can write, they can take pictures and do a photo essay. So it's they can deliver a PowerPoint, it doesn't matter as long as they actually answer and show me that they are knowledgeable about what I'm asking them.   Michael Hingson  07:30 Did you or do you have today, much involvement with outside of learning disabilities and so on persons with physical disabilities like blindness or, or other physical type disabilities?   Yonty Friesem  07:44 At the college, we have an ASL program. So we do have students who also are hard hearing or need interpretation, or are deaf. And I didn't encounter so far blind students in my four and a half years at Columbia College, but we had different disabilities that people came and because I'm using the Universal Design for Learning and very close to the office of disability, I'm working on always different ways to have students be able to share their knowledge, their learning, and also learn in the way that will be customized to the learning type, if we can call it that way.   Michael Hingson  08:32 Yeah. Well, I think for, for blind people, were, in part probably a little bit later than some to discovering, and becoming more involved in some kinds of, of artistic things. But it is happening. And I wouldn't be surprised if you are colleagues, at some point, start to get more blind people, for example, in programs interested in learning more about art and learning more about even doing film and other kinds of work. Traditionally, in acting, for example, people who portray blind people have not been blind people. And now, the the world of blind people, the organized blind movements, for example, are starting to say, there really needs to be more of us doing it, let us do it. So it I'm sure will help shape a different image over time.   Yonty Friesem  09:35 And I really hope so because like, for example, this program of civic media that I founded at Columbia College Chicago, would really benefit what we're trying to do is get as many voices and different voices to come and create media for the greater good and to help the community that they're interested in. So as we have you know, people who are working on different disabilities, working with indigenous people working with have black community, for example, in south and west of Chicago, it would be amazing to have somebody who would like to work on art with blind people and see how that can be spread, because I know that we can learn a lot from it. So I really hope that, you know, that will happen soon.   Michael Hingson  10:20 I suspect it will very much be a two way learning Street, which is okay, too.   Yonty Friesem  10:26 And that's how we work. Exactly.   Michael Hingson  10:30 So you have however, done a lot of work with people in terms of learning disabilities, and so on. So how, how has that all worked? What are some of your experiences in the challenges that you've faced?   Yonty Friesem  10:42 I mean, that goes back to like, 20 years ago. You know, I was 23 years old, when I was I say, thrown into the classroom. Not exactly, but I was hired two days before the first day of school. And I was putting like, 39 hours per week teaching, ninth 10th 11th and 12th grade, high school students, media. And that specific school was in a very tough neighborhood, in the center, like near Tel Aviv. And the kids were really struggling personally, you know, family wise learning. And most of them were not diagnosed with whatever was there. You know, disability, if it was emotional, if it was physical, neurological, or whatever it was. So I'm 23 year old, don't have too much experience in teaching was then asked to be there. And that was my kind of bootcamp to like, really listening and understanding and seeing that what I perceive as something is not necessarily the same for the other. And so really, by committing to being with them, listening, seeing what's going on, checking with them, and just being them and showing care. Because that's really the the emotional, like way of connection. As an educator, that's what creates the trust, to then build learning, there's not going to be learning if there's no engagement. And that's the first thing of Universal Design for Learning. You need to engage, have the trust, and then go together as the state's two way learning. It's never just the educator, teaching the students. So that was like the beginning of my journey to really understand that I need to be humble, and I don't know what other people are going through, and I need to listen to what's going on. And then you know, as negotiate, what can we do together? How can we get there together?   Michael Hingson  12:49 And I would presume that you had some successes, especially once you learned that it's all about establishing a rapport. It's all about gaining trust. And and also on, you're in probably doing some learning to trust.   Yonty Friesem  13:04 Yeah. Oh, yeah. goes both ways. Yes. Yeah, exactly. So, you know, I mean, going back to that, you know, initial experience that was very, you know, crucial for me, the students were assured that I was the one to blame for their teacher who left, which obviously had nothing to do with it. But, um, I was there and I was just there, like, with whatever they needed in the editing room in the filming. And I was there to support, they were throwing things at me, they were like spitting in the class. They were, you know, slurs and like, it was very, very tough. But I, they couldn't get rid of me in the sense of, they were trying different tactics to see like, you know, oh, to make me leave. But the fact that they saw me staying there and wanting to help them genuinely, that earn their trust, and that was tough. That was, you know, several months that took to earn. But once I earned that, that's for life. I'm still, you know, in contact with some of them. Some of them became filmmakers. And it's, it was gratifying in the long run. Yeah. And like every educator, it takes time to see the fruits of your harvest. So long, but yeah, that's like how, how it worked with a lot of work on my part to show that I'm really genuinely there and I don't think I'm superior or no better than them.   Michael Hingson  14:33 Wow. So you, you were thrust into it what they must have liked or had a great liking for the previous teacher? Oh, yeah.   Yonty Friesem  14:41 Yeah. Because they're like, you know, since they arrived, so yeah, it was tough.   Michael Hingson  14:51 Well, of course, when you have a beloved teacher and then someone else comes in, yeah, it is a it is always a challenge and It is all about trying to get people to understand. I'm sure that there were some who just refuse to, to open up and recognize that there was value in a new teacher.   Yonty Friesem  15:14 I mean, eventually they did. It was really like a bravery test, or I don't know what to call it kind of how much will I endure? And the fact that I did was something for them to say, Oh, okay. So I guess he, you know, he wants to be here. He cares about us. He wants to actually here and help us to have our opinions shared. And they would make film about their experiences and things. And so my help was crucial for them to get their message across.   Michael Hingson  15:45 When did you know that you had really broken through to them?   Yonty Friesem  15:50 When the I didn't have to call it misbehavior, but the interruption really, really wind down. And it goes, I'm saying it took several months, like six months. So that was very tough. But as I saw that they, you know, started to come happily to the class, they would share with me more personal things that were going on. And we're really focusing on the work and not being disruptive. That's where I saw the change.   Michael Hingson  16:18 And then they started becoming engaged. Yeah. So you still you say you still are in touch with some of them, which is always cool.   Yonty Friesem  16:29 Yeah, you know, it's now like 20 years of like, connection and, and seeing, you know, their family, their kids their career. So it's, it's very gratifying to hear and, and some of them still, like, it was amazing to hear that they're still like joking the group of friends, how they will torture me. So they knew that they were torturing me. That was part of it. Yeah.   Michael Hingson  16:56 Do some of them still come and seek any input or advice from you? Or   Yonty Friesem  17:01 sometimes? Yeah, here and there. Again, I mean, I have a whole ocean and half of the globe like distance. So it's not like I can see them, like personally one on one. But yes, you know, there is social media, there is emails, so yes, definitely. There are different things that they're you know, making movie and asking, like, what do I think And here and there, so it's very gratifying.   Michael Hingson  17:25 That's as cool as it gets. I, I understand that whole experience and that concept? Well, I remember, my sophomore geometry teacher did herbal Shimer. And I became friends, when I was a sophomore. And in reality, we still communicate to this day. And that's been quite a long time now since 1965. So it is, it is a lot of fun when you have a teacher that lasts and does well and that you still get to talk with and actually become a friend with. It's it's a it's a jewel in life. Yeah. Yeah. So I understand that from some of our discussions that you've done some work with foster children. And that kind of got you on the road to a little bit of dealing with accessibility and so on. Can you tell me a little bit about that?   Yonty Friesem  18:18 Sure. So it's not like there's no foster care system in Israel. But it's very different. And I was never encountering that when I was in Israel. But when I came to the states to do my PhD, the first semester at the University of Rhode Island, because of my background as an educator and working with special, I was like a special educator, homeroom teacher, basically in Israel. So I had a lot of experience, I was approached to be part of a project called first Star Academy. And that's, it's a Hollywood base, nonprofit organization that helps across the country, foster youth, to help them get into college. The research have been shown from 2011, that if you're in foster care, no matter your race, religion, gender, you're less likely to graduate from college. Like that's the most like horrible factor that will prevent you basically so what the organization is doing is supporting high school students to be more familiar with university settings, and academically and also emotionally support them so that they can go to college. So as part of that, I was asked to be in charge of the media classes, which would be basically the fun part, the less academic, it's not the math of the language and language arts But as such I worked on, you know, applying UDL, applying universal design for learning and applying all the strategy that I've learned in Israel to work with the foster kids, it was a very different setting because it was in the university, it was a summer camp of more than a month when they lived on campus, I also lived on campus as a student. So we basically lived in the same place saw each other on a daily basis. And we worked at the University Academic Library, which is like, you know, astonishing, like to make movies and stuff. And it was, like one of the most transforming experience that I had. In the US. It was just amazing to work with all the different. I mean, they're not kids, they were teens. And now they're grownups, because we're talking about 10 years ago, was the first time I started. So you know, they're now like getting to their late 20s. So it was really interesting to see and to learn, because as I did before, I was focusing on listening. And since I'm really not familiar with the foster care system, I heard a lot of stories that I didn't know of, and didn't know how things works from their perspective. And that's where we decided that part of media literacy education is to know your target audience and to purposefully create a message in whatever media you choose. And so what we decided to do, because there was a lot of anger, frustration, because they wanted to see their families or their siblings and, and they were looking at their social worker as like the gatekeeper in a way. So what we decided to do was, okay, let's have your social worker, be your target audience. And let's create media that you think will communicate your social worker, what you want. So in the beginning, it was bashing the social worker saying, You don't understand it's like, and then as we talked with them, we said, Okay, we did some empathy exercises, if you would get this kind of message, would you listen, if somebody is bashing you and telling you you don't understand and they said, No. So maybe we should change that narrative to really get to the point that you're trying to make. So some did he pop music, some did websites, some did videos, some did podcast, and it was really amazing to see the transformation. And also, one of the thing that I later on, published about, or with my colleagues, was the feedback. Because being kind of, you know, I'm calling it victim of art school. But   Yonty Friesem  22:40 I did four years of film school. And you know, my teachers thought that it's like part of their job, to criticize the work and basically give what they saw as constructive criticism, but actually was just bashing my work and saying, I don't know anything, and I should listen to them, because they're the experts. And so since then, I really don't buy this thing of constructive criticism. I think criticism is criticism. You think it's constructive, but it's not. So I'm working on on empathic feedback. And that seems to work as we go along. Because we needed to tweak some stuff that we thought would be empathic, but we're not empathic and they taught us what is the right sequence that feels and, you know, as they came back, like, even the fourth year, they were see me and they say, oh, let's do the the empathic feedback. And let's, you know, and knowing how to receive that feedback from really a caring and compassionate way to make it better, but not just to bash and feel that I'm the instructor superior, and I know more. So that was a long answer.   Michael Hingson  23:41 Can you give me no, it's fine. But now you, you have me curious about a couple of different things. And I want to do this one first. So tell me a little bit more about empathic feedback as opposed to what some people would call constructive criticism, what you are calling constructive criticism, which necessarily, isn't really constructive, but a lot of criticism. So can you give me an example of the difference?   Yonty Friesem  24:08 So I love to tell that story with which happened to a sense, all of us in the camp with the foster youth didn't know too much. So we did our own research, of kind of trying to understand but research is one thing and then actually, you know, being in the encounter with the teens is different. So we came up with we were looking like what would be an efficient feedback. And we saw that there is something called the sandwich feedback. I don't know if you know that. So that's basically the bread is the positive, then you put the negative and then you put the positive. And we thought that would be brilliant. That will be you know, kind of sugarcoating, and that will work and they'll you know, be very happy about and so we tried to implement it and it was a disaster because they saw our bullshit like they knew That, like, we're not really saying the positive positives, just sugarcoating, as I said it was actually the negative part. And they were like, Okay, what's the negative? And I was like, okay, that's not working. And some of them like, one of the stories that I don't like to tell it's horrible story. But it demonstrates how horrible it was. A student was so afraid of receiving that feedback, the positive, negative positive, that the second before he was supposed to be in front of the class and receiving the feedback, he pressed on the delete button that deleted the whole website, he worked for a month. And that said, the whole work was gone, because he couldn't handle like the feedback, which, again, was not really feedback was criticism. Right. So that's, that's the sandwich feedback, which, you know, there was a lot of research about it afterwards, when I looked at, like, delving more into it, how uneffective it is, and how the students can read between the lines, that again, it's really the negative there. So what we did is we changed that part. And what we decided to do and why I call it empathic is to two things. One is all the statements, there's four statements, all the statements, start with AI. And that helps will for the person who's listening, because if you start and stating, using, I think I love, I wonder, I see, you hear that, okay, it's you, it's your perspective. So that statement, starting with an eye, put it in perspective of like, okay, I can receive it or not, but that's your bias. It's your assumption. It's your, like, way of looking. So that was one thing that we change, that it's not just your editing doesn't work? No, I think or I don't see what's working here or something like that. So that was changed. Number one. The second was this four parts that evolved during the years as we got get feedback from them about what works and what doesn't work. So the sequence goes as to noting, I saw, I heard, I felt I you know, you just give a summary of what was your own experience, kind of an observation of what was the experience of consuming that media, then you move to a praise. I loved how you and you need to be detailed, because if I say to you, Hi, love the music of your video, it's not helpful for you, you're like, Okay, what does it mean you love. But if I say I love the music, because it made me feel such and such at this moment, I was so stressed. And then I heard the music. And maybe that's helpful to see if it's really the effect that I wanted to make or not. So that's the second thing like a praise, basically. The third thing is a suggestion, from my own perspective. If I were you, I would do this and this and this. So by framing it that way, it's just a suggestion. And I might not get exactly to why you want to do it and how you want to do it. But that's how I suggest doing it. And you can take it or leave it, it's up to you. And the last thing ends with a question a wonder of like, I wonder, like, what did you do here? Why did you do this, and I don't understand this. And this, how that so that it creates this kind of dialogue with the other person. That was significantly different because it created really a conversation, a dialogue from a genuine place, and not a bashing. Like I'm trying to show my power and that I'm smarter than the other person I'm giving the feedback to.   Michael Hingson  28:40 And the reality is, it seems to me that what you're saying and describing is valuable for anyone who deals with anyone else and making suggestions that goes far beyond film school. Needless to say, Oh,   Yonty Friesem  29:01 for sure. Right? Very difficult to implement it. But yes, that's definitely an I'm a, I was introduced to nonviolent communication. That was a major basis for that. And now I'm teaching a class of nonviolent communication at the college and also working with other educators to use that because that's really based on empathy. Marshall Rosenberg, the late Marshall Rosenberg, colleagues, language of life, of like really communicating with the person because you really want to communicate with the other human beings.   Michael Hingson  29:39 Well, so you you now tweaked another, another question. You say it's very difficult to implement why?   Yonty Friesem  29:48 Because we're human beings. And there's always struggles and things and, and we have our own needs, and it's very difficult to find the balancing act. Between verbalize what is our needs, and understanding that it might not always work with somebody else needs and our emotions, like, you know, we're emotional beings. So it's not like our needs don't matter, they matter. But we need to understand that we're working in a society with other people. So it needs to be somewhere a compromise and a wheel to work together to figure it out, which a lot of our structures, especially education are very oppressive. If you think about it, you know, the fact that I'm as an educator needs to give grades, that puts me in a position of power, that puts me in a position that I need to evaluate by a grade the students. And so I found different strategy to overcome that, to really go back to a dialogue place, but the system is built in a very difficult, challenging way that doesn't really is about the need and the human being,   Michael Hingson  30:58 we become so much involved with power and authority. And we don't always learn easily, how to take people where they are. And maybe there's a place where we believe that they need to go. But we don't generally like to look at people where they are, they should be like us, or they're useless. And we we teach that as a society. And that's one of the things I think we have to get over.   Yonty Friesem  31:31 Yeah, it's, it's very sad. And obviously, the technology is amazing. The way it's like advancing, but the premise of social media has been really the counter like social media is putting us in connection, but very toxic connection. There is positive connection in many ways. But Twitter, Facebook, tik, Tok, Snapchat, Instagram, they're not designed for dialogue. They're designed for Amplifying Voices in one way, but not reciprocally. And there are efforts like minds, which is social media that is built on dialogue.   Michael Hingson  32:18 How does that work?   Yonty Friesem  32:21 It works in a way that you post and then it's it's part of for like, conversation threads between people like, Twitter does have an option to reply, and then somebody can reply to you. But the fact that it's replying reply, you cannot add it and you, you basically have only now more characters, but 100 2001, it's double now. But it doesn't really allow for a conversation. And so if you're talking about the conversation that is not like so clubhouse, for example, is a converse and audio conversation. So you really can talk with between people in the room at real time, or you can listen to the recording, but they're not really participate, but minds trying asynchronously to have that with posting that people can post like thoughtful, like, read it in a way have it in some capacity and more dialogical way of structure.   Michael Hingson  33:23 What about LinkedIn?   Yonty Friesem  33:26 Yeah, I mean, LinkedIn, you know, there's not so much restriction like, Twitter. But I see it very similar to like Facebook and Twitter in that sense, you know, people are sharing their, whatever message they want to share. And people can like and can add to it. Like usually it's a sentence. And sometimes you get into like, a whole thread of one, say something and then going back and forth. And, but it doesn't really seem like it's like a genuine like dialogue. But it's, it's a little bit better, but very, very problematic. And I want to go back to what you were saying, because that's the whole basis of both inclusion and accessibility is understanding the other person in front of you as a human being. Right, and they have needs and emotions exactly like you. And so how we can work together. And that doesn't seem to be the general notion like if you're working in your community, yes, people might be more inclusive in their small community. But at the larger once you get to political debate, or you get a little bit out of your comfort zone, always like it's a retrieving to like safeguard and kind of like, I need my needs to be met. And I'm not listening.   Michael Hingson  34:48 When you and I first began communicating course, we did that through LinkedIn and I sent you a message and you responded. And then I gave me more information about the podcast. And very frankly, what I was working toward was what we finally did, which was to have a real live real time conversation. I, I think email is lovely. I think social media has some places, some versions of it more than others. But there's nothing like having a conversation.   Yonty Friesem  35:24 Right, and you didn't put like a post on my wall or my, you did it like as a private message. So, you know, you're respected, like privacy and looked for engagement as basically like a hook here. Like, let's continue a conversation on another platform. So that was kind of like the jump. So yes, in that sense, it works. I'm getting a lot of, you know, different connection through Twitter, through LinkedIn. But I think what social media promised us in the early 2000 was, you know, to make the world a better place to connect better. And what we can see now is that it's not working that well, because of the economical kind of structure, the business model of those social media. And we can see the whole debate now with Elon Musk, like buying Twitter, and people who are afraid people who are for it, and the whole discussion about monetizing tweets and stuff. So it goes back to that part that social media is monetized. And it's a business. And it's really not about making the world a better place. It is about connecting people, but I'm not sure connecting the way that I would like or see that that was the premise of connecting that way.   Michael Hingson  36:41 I'm not sure we're really connecting. There. There are interaction somewhat, but really connecting and really getting to know people on on any of the social media platforms isn't anywhere near the level of getting to really understand and interact with someone that you get when you have a direct real communication. And none of the platforms including email, for that matter, do it. Texting doesn't do it. Yes, you can text and you can respond, your send, and maybe because texting is a little bit more, especially with the younger generation, real time, they might say, well, but we are connecting, but we're still missing the real conversation, and all the nuances of that, that you get when you're interacting with a person in real time directly.   Yonty Friesem  37:39 Yeah, definitely, that's, you know, we can see that that there is sometimes the illusion of reality. But understanding that social media has its own boundaries, and the person you communicate with, you see just the image of the person, and they might tweet or post or share or put a tick tock video in the middle of something else that's going on and not seeing the larger picture. Because like when we're now engaged in a dialogue, like obviously, you know, the frame of the Zoom now is showing just part of the room I'm in. And there's a lot of other things that are happening around here. But still, there is something that is more genuine and more realistic than the social media that is really like a Mealy kind of thing of my life that people are sharing and other people are sure to interpret it as such or such. Or you can see so many times when people misinterpret messages, and then it becomes like a huge like, fuming like   Michael Hingson  38:43 Twitter rage. Yeah. You said something earlier, I wanted to ask about you said that. Some of the educational things like dealing with foster children and dealing with children in class is somewhat different in Israel than it is here. How are they different?   Yonty Friesem  39:03 Well, I mean, you know, surely, it's, I'll give you one example. When I the first class I taught and that was not, you know, it was I had my first class in undergraduate that I taught at University of Rhode Island in the spring of 2012. So 10 years ago, exactly. I was teaching a film class had six students, and then the first class I'm going in and you know, I'm sharing some stuff we like, do things and then I'm teaching something and then I'm asking questions, and then nobody raised their hand. Nobody answered. Nobody likes silence. I'm like, Okay, so I'm trying a different question. Nothing like so I you know, after that class, very frustrated, go back to like American friends and asking them is my accent so horrible, like, what's going on? Like, they don't understand what I'm asking them and They're telling me no, they're just like, shy and are like worry about getting the wrong answer. So I said, okay, and then the next time I come, and then I asked them to write their answer, let them time to edit their written answer, and then they read it. So then suddenly, I got more engagement in Israel, I wouldn't be able to say a word in class, like the students thinks they know much better, and they need to like talk, they need to argue with the teacher, which I was used to that. So coming to a place that is more respectful, and more kind of, you know, listening, I was like, wow, okay. That's very different. So that's really like one anecdotal example. But obviously, there's a lot of cultural differences being in the Middle East, you know, warmer country, warmer temperament. And being in a constant state of safety issues. creates like a lot of differences versus, you know, there is a lot of safety issue here in the US, but it affects different students differently. And culturally, there's a little bit, you know, more kind of, like, listening. I think practices than in Israel,   Michael Hingson  41:21 you think that there was? Or is more fear in Israel? And that that makes a difference? Do you think fear is is a part of it? And I don't know that it is, it's just something that   Yonty Friesem  41:34 I would read the opposite, like, and it might be because of the the trauma, the collective trauma that is happening in Israel is that, you know, it's one of the happiest place, which you would like really, like, how can that be, but people understand that they're in constant threat, and you just learn to live with it, like, in the late 90s, when there are buses that were, you know, like, bombed, like, in the center of Tel Aviv, the day after one bus was bombed, I took the same line with the same path, because it's like, okay, you know, if I'm going to be blown up, I'm going to be blown up, I don't have control over that, I'm not going to let the terrorist decide for me, what is going to be my life pattern, and I'm just going to, you know, so it is something that is in the psyche of the daily, but not like as overtly. So there's really no fear in that sense. I mean, it's very depressed, like, in some level, but I think in the US, there's more fear about the authority, fear of like being wrong of like, so the engagement is different. Like there is something in Israel that is more in your face, kind of whatever happens, like you'll know, if somebody likes you, or don't like you, in the US, you might not know that, which is very European culture, in that sense of like, people not always sharing what they think about you. But in Israel, there's no problem, you know, very quickly, for good or bad. So it's very different culturally. And it's not one is better than the other. It's just very, very different. And it takes time to to adjust to it.   Michael Hingson  43:14 Is it a self confidence to a degree kind of thing?   Yonty Friesem  43:19 chutzpah? Yeah, I guess there's something to that the Sabra kind of you know, that the symbol of the Israeli, like, pointy, kind of from the outside, but very soft from the inside. So, yeah, that might be part of it.   Michael Hingson  43:36 So universal design, learning, obviously, is very important to you. Why is that?   Yonty Friesem  43:42 Because they think that when I reflect to my own learning, I see how that could have been helpful. Like when I started to not being so good in math, when I had the tension issues as an adolescent. And again, I was diagnosed with ADHD only a year and a half ago. So it's not like my whole life. I knew I had ADHD, I assume that most likely I have it. But it was really with the pandemic that I was like, in such stress that I said, Okay, let's see what's going on, neurologically. And so, I see universal design for learning as a way to really engage all students and best practices of education. And I, I see how my own self like early self would benefit from that. It took me nine years to finish my bachelor degree. I didn't finish a PhD in a foreign language, basically, successfully, but it took a huge toll. And if I would have known if my teacher would have used that, I know it would be much easier. And I know I have a lot of privilege that I'm, you know, coming to as a learner. And most of the students I'm encountering don't have that privilege. And so that undermined even more toward the learning. And if we want to look at the better, good, the, you know, the greater good and the better society, we need to do a lot of work in education to really reach everybody that's not going to solve our social issues, that needs to be legislation funding that there needs infrastructure, for a lot of things that needs to happen. Education is not the only solution. But in my area of education, I think Universal Design for Learning is a necessity to really address every student in the class and not doing what I hate, which is the bell curve of saying, well, we'll go to the middle. So the excellent students will take care of themselves. And the bad students, that's collateral damage, it's okay, no, it's not okay. Like we need to reach every student's, and there are ways of doing that.   Michael Hingson  45:51 You certainly seem to typify the concept that as a teacher, you also do need to be a learner, which we've talked about, and that you are better for the fact that you regard yourself as a learner just as much as your students are.   Yonty Friesem  46:08 Yeah, I mean, again, it's, you know, there is this kind of the sage on the stage and the guide on the side. So I definitely see myself as the guide on the side that also learn from them. Because it goes back to what I talked before, if I have all the knowledge, and my students are waiting for me to pour information to them. I'm just exercising oppression. And I'm just keeping the system as is. It's not like I don't have knowledge to share, but they also have very valuable knowledge for me that they can share. And if we really experienced this dialogue, it's like, I don't know if you know, Steven Covey The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. So, um, one of his elements is synergy. And what he says about synergy is, once you experience that, you want to go back to that, because that's a type of collaboration that is so addictive, that you understand that that's how a real collaboration should work. And that's the same thing, if students will experience a genuine reciprocal relationship, they'll want to go back to that, and they'll be kind of, you know, pass it forward, kind of do it and make the world a better place in that sense. So that's why I'm such a big advocate of that, because that's the relationship I want to have when I going to my primary care physician, when I'm calling my healthcare and fighting with them, and not getting somebody who's reading the script, and not really listening to what I'm asking because they have a script. And there's only five scenarios there. And my scenario doesn't exist there. So they cannot help me. So the whole system has that. And if we start to break that, that's the way to really bring more inclusion and accessibility and understanding that it's not like there's only five script because the algorithm or the designer of the algorithm decided on that, because that's what they knew. It's like, let's bring everybody to the conversation. Let's be open and listen to what's happening. Because each one has a unique story, unique circumstances that might challenge what you think that you know, or the practices that you do.   Michael Hingson  48:30 You raise a really interesting and relevant point that all too often today in healthcare, they want you to fit into a certain mold. And it's not just healthcare, but I know my wife is a paraplegic and has been in a chair her entire life, but a lot of her needs and a lot of the kinds of things that she needs to deal with don't fit the same mold as an amputee or a person who becomes paralyzed later in life. And we find that the healthcare system doesn't really understand that all that well. Or, for me as a as a blind person, I've gone and visited with a number of ophthalmologists who have absolutely no knowledge of how to deal with a person who is blind. And I've experienced some major challenges because I don't fit their view, both from a standpoint of competence as a as a person who happens to be blind and able to do things much less that my eyes have, have not become a part of me in terms of the way I function, other than when they aren't doing right like conjunctivitis or other things like that. And healthcare just doesn't always like it when some of us don't fit the The mold that we think that people should be fitting in. And I know that's just as true in education, it's certainly true with a lot of different kinds of companies and bosses and so on. leadership styles sort of go the same way. And if we can't really learn to grow with the people that we work with, and understand them, then we're the ones that are going to lose out in the end.   Yonty Friesem  50:24 Yeah. And that goes to politicians with their own constituents that they're listening to. But what about the people who are part of their, like, grid that maybe not vote for them? And are they listening? And are they? And what kind of legislation is happening? Right? And sure, the whole debate Yes, like who? There is so much research? So um, research of algorithm of oppression, for example, about it's not the algorithm that is racist or oppressive, but somebody needed to design it. Right. So when you talk about the health care for your wife, like, Who's the person who created those policies? Have they ever talked to somebody who would be impacted? In that sense? Do they understand the scope? And it's so vast in health care, that you can't really do that? So like, how can we make mechanism that will be a little bit more open to a variety of different narratives, different story different needs, that the person who was in charge may have not encountered? Or seeing?   Michael Hingson  51:27 Yeah, exactly. Right. And, you know, the, the ultimate thing is that it's important to always try to learn things I know, for me, for the last 20 years, as you may know, I have been a keynote speaker, a public speaker, and I travel the world and talk about September 11, I talk about my experiences, I talk about lessons we should learn, and so on. But even through all of that, anyone who talks to me about that, and my career, as a keynote speaker, will hear me say, if I don't come away from any event, I attend, learning more than I hope that I'm able to impart to the people who are listening to me, if I don't learn more, then I haven't done a good job. Because all of those people have things to teach me. And it's one of the reasons that when I speak, I like to go early. I'd like to spend time with people at the event. Because I will learn more, the more I get to dialogue with them. So I don't like to just go and speak and leave. I like to go early if I can. And I like to definitely interact. And it's the only way to really get the best flavor for what you're doing.   Yonty Friesem  52:49 Yeah, I'm with you there.   Michael Hingson  52:53 So it makes for an interesting, interesting world. So you've talked about the concept of civic media? When did you hear about that? And tell me more about it.   Yonty Friesem  53:07 I mean, it's a pretty new concept started in 2006, by Henry Jenkins, then was at MIT now is that USC. And, you know, academics like to put concepts and different definitions and his definition evolved. In the beginning, it was any media that increase civic engagement. But that doesn't tell you much. So 2011, he revisited and kind of was a little bit more elaborative about how it should be more inclusive. How should it fight oppression. And we have at Columbia College, Chicago, the only MA in civic media, which is a big pride of me that we were able to do that and letting me lead that curriculum wise. And so our program is fully online, which is also something that is important for part of fighting oppression and accessibility, in the sense of like, having people from around the world joining that program and being able to experiencing it. So when I'm talking about the program, I'm explaining that people are making media to drive social change in a very specific community. Going back to what I said about target audience, you need to really be specific and there is an amazing TED talk that I love to have my students listen to. And it's you want to help question mark, shut up and listen, exclamation mark. And it's a great video that really set the tone of the program that is about listening to the community. And the students in my program will be the media experts, but they're not the experts of the community, their ex roots in community engagement. So what we really focusing on is having the students learn nonviolent communication, listening skills, and how to leverage the media knowledge that they're learning into really doing those practices to help the community figure out together, what are the media based solution for that. So it can be urban planning, it can be solution journalism, it can be media arts can be documentary filmmaking, podcasting. So there is a variety of things. Your podcast is civic media, you're spreading through the podcast, the ideas of accessibility of inclusion, you're bringing voices and variety of voices to talk about those issues so that people can connect, learn from and then go and explore it. So this is a civic media project. And we have such a variety of project, we have a student who is now working at NPR, after graduating a student who is directing a film festival with indigenous youth, in New Mexico, we have somebody who is a communication manager for Autism Awareness network, you know, and the list goes on and on. So it's, it's great to have the opportunity to have this kind of program that is so unique in addressing social issue through media, and it's so interdisciplinary and out of the box that people are like, What are you doing there. But it's very exciting to see the results and to see what the amazing work that our students are doing.   Michael Hingson  56:40 You find that when people are making films, or podcasts or whatever, that the better ones are the ones who also listen to their own work or observe their own work as they're doing it or afterward. And then, as I like to say, become their own best or worst critic.   Yonty Friesem  57:06 So I'll give you one example that I think is one of the highlights of me as a media civic media educator. Last year, one of our students decided to do a photo essay as a caregiver to a person with disability. And they decided to do it together as a dialogue. So my student is a photographer, a photo journalist. And the person she was caring for, is a communication specialist, and has her own company now media for accessibility called Craig crap, which is awesome. And what they did is they took the pictures that shows the daily work of a caregiver, very statically, very intimate. But that was a dialogue, they took 1000s of pictures. And then together, they decided, like, you know that besides the framing, which one to include, which one not to include, and once they posted it, they also added a dialogue between them, so that you read the dialogue. And you can also look at the images. And now they're going to have a gallery and it was published in disability accessibility blog. So this is really a genuine like, when you're in a dialogue, it goes back to what we've discussed in the last hour, right? Civic media is about civic civil dialogue, using media media is just the conduit to it. But it's real human to human engagement. And that's, that's the core of it.   Michael Hingson  58:51 How do you find that civic media is making a difference in terms of accessibility and inclusion?   Yonty Friesem  58:58 So again, I mean, there's a lot of different ways. If it's by you know, infographic, using social media, to campaign awareness, having people be more inclusive, with the work that you're doing in the company that you're working with, you know, having websites be more accessible and the fact that their standards and people understand that that's something that they need. That's how civic media can bring an awareness having just the button to see like, ABA, I don't need that. But to see that there is a button there. Off accessibility, that's part of awareness. That's part of the service that different civic media, practitioners are doing to bring more awareness of inclusion of accessibility.   Michael Hingson  59:54 And that makes perfect sense. It's all about having something that's visible however, It's visible, but having something that's visible, that people can see can interact with. And that specifically sends the message. I'm here to help, as we're discussing here, deal with accessibility and inclusion.   Yonty Friesem  1:00:16 Yeah, I mean, take the example of closed caption. So closed caption was an accessibility requirement with a ADA. But once it started to be implemented in bars, like, you know, the music could be in a crazy volume or the TV might have been very far away. But there's a closed caption. So that helps everybody to read it, right. So it started with accessibility and actually gave accessibility to many more people they intended to. And that's something that people now are used to, but they were not used to having those closed caption. And in the beginning, people were like, What is this thing, but now it's all accepted. So those are the things that need to be more instituted. And seeing, and this is the fight of civic media to bring those inclusive practices into all media use.   Michael Hingson  1:01:07 Well, here's a thought. And then we've been doing this an hour. So we'll have to wrap up here soon. But here's an observation that I've had, of late over the last few years, we've seen many television advertisements in commercials. And the commercials have music, a lot of visual information going on the screen, and no dialogue, which systematically incorrect and absolutely categorically leaves out a segment of the population. And it seems like that's an increasing trend where we're going backwards in the sense that getting to the point where it's all about what you see, and who cares about what you hear. And I think that's a problem that somehow we need to teach people that they're creating rather than being truly inclusive.   Yonty Friesem  1:02:06 And that goes back to what I said about the genuine, like work. And if somebody who has that experience, and you know, having a blind person coming to learn civic media, and then advocate and learn how to do those things, that's why we need a variety and diverse people with diverse background, because that's where people bring this perspective that hasn't been seen, understood or accepted by others. But that's, that's the fight. That's basically what needs to happen to be more inclusive. Yeah,   Michael Hingson  1:02:44 somehow, we have to convince Elon Musk that he needs to make the passenger side of Tesla's a little bit more inclusive, because people who are blind can interact with the radio, they can interact with anything on their side, it's all touchscreen. But he's not alone in that auto automobile manufacturers have been moving that way again, and it is it's all about dialogue. And recognizing that if you're going to truly be inclusive, then you have to look at areas of the population that you're not necessarily familiar with.   Yonty Friesem  1:03:17 And the only way of making it work is what's called participatory action research, which is not you, you know, like the kind of sociologists come and observes the others, but actually, a research by dialogue by doing it together and searching it together. What are the solutions? What are the problems and how to do it? That's the only way and in tech companies or other like healthcare, this is not the practices, you just hire like a research company, you ask them what to do the research. And that's it, you don't do a genuine participatory action research to really reach all the audience genuinely that you want to serve.   Michael Hingson  1:03:58 And that makes perfect sense. Well, I want to thank you for being with us today on unstoppable mindset, you're certainly helping society in a lot of ways hopefully become more unstoppable. And I mean that in a very serious way, if people want to reach out to you and contact you or learn more about all the things we've been talking about, how might they do that?   Yonty Friesem  1:04:20 So I'm Twitter addict, with all what I said about Twitter. And there you go. You're at yo and Ty on Twitter. But you can find also me on LinkedIn on Columbia College Chicago, website and the media education lab. So there is multiple ways of connecting me since I'm using universal design to contact me because I want to connect and I want to diversify as much as I can. All the people that I'm encountering some I always welcome people to connect with me and thank you so much, Michael for this lovely hour and let You know, talk about all my passion. So it's a lot of fun, don't have that a lot of opportunities.   Michael Hingson  1:05:05 And I liked the way you do sound passionate, and that's great. And I want to thank you Yachty for being here as well. If people want to learn more, hopefully they will reach out to you. They can also reach out to us and I can help connect. But I really appreciate all of you listening in and Yonty for you being here. If people wish to reach out to me, they can email me Michaelhi M I C H A E L H I at accessibe  A C C E S S I B E.com. So feel free to email you can also go to Michael hingson.com/podcast. That's w w w.m i c h a l h i n g s o n .com/podcast. And of course, as I always ask people to do, if you will have you liked what you heard, please give us a five star rating wherever you're listening to this podcast. We appreciate it. And Yanty will as well. Yeah, we'll make sure that you know about it right.   Yonty Friesem  1:06:05 Thank you so much. We yes will spread the word. Well, thank   Michael Hingson  1:06:08 you and Michael, thanks for being with us on unstoppable mindset   UM Intro/Outro  1:06:18   You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com. accessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

Rob McConnell Interviews – JOHN SHIMER - Angels Among Us Project

Rob McConnell Interviews – JOHN SHIMER - Angels Among Us Project

Rob McConnell Interviews – JOHN SHIMER - Angels Among Us Project

On Episode 084 Ted Shimer, author of The Freedom Fight joins us to talk about our brains on p*rn and the impact that has on intimacy, our spiritual lives and its relationship to shame. Over the years, I have walked with countless people through the pain of p*rn addiction. I have seen families wrecked, relationships devastated and lives fall apart. It is a strange thing that people like Billie Eilish, John Mayer and Russel Brand have spoken out about the danger of it. And in the same way magazines like TIME an GQ have also warned about the damage of p*rn. But lately, there seems to be less open talk about it in many Christian circles. So, let's explore this together. To learn more about Ted's work click here.

Listen in and level up your ministry as Shad & Paul interview, Ted Shimer. Ted is the founder of The Freedom Fight, an online pornography addiction recovery program. He has mentored young adults for nearly three decades with the collegiate ministry Student Mobilization. Ted received his MABS from Dallas Seminary and is trained as a Pastoral Sex Addiction Professional-Supervisor. His discipleship background, theological instruction and world-class clinical training gives Shimer a unique and grounded approach to addiction recovery that is biblically-based, scientifically sound, gospel-centered and effective. Ted and his wife Amber have four adult children and live in Fayetteville, Arkansas.

Sam Shimer, a 30-year veteran Private Equity fund manager shares with Samantha and Brittany what makes a great brand, how to evaluate opportunities, and why he only invests in franchises now.

In this amazing interview Greg Shimer shares his journey with his wife Tracy with her battle with brain cancer. He shares how they learned to live life after the diagnosis. He has a passion for helping others during the most challenging times in their lives. He continues to carry forward her legacy and passion to change the face of brain cancer . Even after her passing he supports other brain tumor survivors living their best life. As a bonus, there is an interview from Tracy in 2016 sharing how to live with brain cancer and change the face of brain cancer.

Ted Shimer joins us so that we can ask him the harder questions around pornography. In this episode, Shane and Ted talk about how common porn actually is in the Church and what it really takes to get clean and free. Check out Ted's book The Freedom Fight: The New Drug and the Truths that Set Us FreeSupport this show for $5 and get a Naked Gospel coffee mug! Ted Shimer has mentored men since 1991 with the collegiate ministry Student Mobilization. He received his MABS from Dallas Seminary and was trained as a Pastoral Sex Addiction Professional-Supervisor.His discipleship background, theological instruction and world class clinical training gives Ted a unique and grounded approach to porn addiction recovery that is biblically based, scientifically sound, gospel centered and effective.Ted is the Founder of The Freedom Fight, an online porn addiction recovery program.Ted and his wife Amber have four adult children and live in Fayetteville, Arkansas.https://thefreedomfight.org/https://www.facebook.com/thefreedomfight1

My guest today is Ted Shimer, author of The Freedom Fight, a research-based discipleship curriculum that equips men and women to break free from pornography so they can run their race and reach their God-given potential in Christ.In this episode, Tim shares his 30+ year history of discipling college students and how he got involved in specifically helping young adults address struggles with porn and how to break free. He also shares 6 main roots to porn addiction, some key principles that lead to long-term freedom from porn, and why addressing porn is a huge opportunity for the church to help Christians know what it means to live out their true identity in Christ. Ted's heart is not just that men and women get free from porn, but that they outgrow the perceived need for it.Learn more about Ted and The Freedom Fight at TheFreedomFight.org.More ResourcesMen.Bebroken.comWomen.Bebroken.com40 Days of Purity for Men40 Days of Purity for WomenRelated PodcastsBreaking Free with Russell WillinghamThe Power of CommunityHelping Men Overcome Porn and Get Emotionally Fit----------Please rate and review our podcast: Apple PodcastsSubscribe to our YouTube channel.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/pure-sex-radio/donations

The pornography industry makes more money than the NBA, NFL, MLB, and NHL combined. Porn is hunting for every member of our family, and the effects on the body of Christ are devastating. There is no greater obstacle we face when it comes to discipleship, spiritual leadership, relational and spiritual health than the enslavement of porn addiction. Today Ted Shimer joins me to talk about the grim realities happening in our families. He then shares the hope that comes when combining spiritual principles with brain science to bring men, women, and our children lasting freedom from the grip of pornography.   Bio: Ted Shimer has mentored men since 1991 with the collegiate ministry Student Mobilization. He received his MABS from Dallas Seminary and has been trained as a Pastoral Sex Addiction Professional-Supervisor. Ted has helped people overcome the bondage of pornography in the context of making disciples. He is the Founder of The Freedom Fight, an online porn addiction recovery program. He is also the author of the book, The Freedom Fight, The New Drug and the Truths that Set Us Free. Ted and his wife Amber have four adult children and live in Fayetteville, Arkansas.   Resources Mentioned: www.thefreedomfight.org The Freedom Fight: The New Drug and the Truth that Sets us Free  The Freedom Fight 30 Day Challenge to break free from Pornography  Freedom From Porn Begins Here: YouVersion Bible 30 Day Devotional Plan  Covenant Eyes: Accountability and Internet Filter Canopy Parental Controls  Sign Up for My Things For Thursday Email

Meet Lisa Kipps Brown an entrepreneur, an author, and an expert on web access and accessibility. She is no stranger to disabilities as her father was blind and showed her constantly that his blindness was no more than a nuisance. You will discover how she entered the business of creating websites and how she has tirelessly worked to ensure that her work was inclusive for all.   Lisa will share not only her life journey, but she will describe why disrupting your now is an important opportunity for all of us to explore. You will even learn her views about the importance of web access and how she accomplishes it today including using accessiBe and its artificial intelligence website product to make her job more successful. Lisa is a real technological visionary and, yes, unstoppable. Some directories do not show full show notes. For the complete transcription please visit https://michaelhingson.com/podcast About our Guest: Author of Disrupt Your Now and Boomer Cashout, and marketing strategist behind the only NASCAR team racing to combat veteran suicide, Lisa Kipps-Brown helps entrepreneurs solve big picture problems with disruptive strategic thinking. Her natural talent for transforming basic ideas into disruptive strategy and valuable collaborations has people like Forbes 30 Under 30-listed blind PhD chemist Dr. Hoby Wedler calling her a "cognitive powerhouse." Steve Sims, author of Bluefishing, says she's a unicorn who bridges the gap between digital natives and digital immigrants. Since starting her web & marketing strategy company in 1996, Lisa has been a pioneer in business use of the web. Take it from one of her clients: "if you're not afraid of challenging the status quo, Lisa Kipps-Brown can help you build a business that's sustainable and means more than money." She's the expert you're missing, and likely didn't even know you need. No gobbledygook, guaranteed! http://lisakippsbrown.com http://disruptyournow.com About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app. Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes Michael Hingson  00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i  capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson  01:20 Welcome to another episode of Unstoppable Mindset, the podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet.  Today, I think we get to do some unexpected things, at least I hope so that'll make it even more fun. But we will also talk about inclusion and diversity. Our guest is Lisa Kipps. Brown, who I met earlier this year, she's got an interesting story to tell. And we have lots of interesting experiences to discuss some of which we've kind of collaborated in from a distance and somewhere I think she'll just tell you things that you'll find interesting. So Lisa, welcome to unstoppable mindset.   Lisa Kipps-Brown  02:00 Thank you so much for having me, Michael, it's great to be with you.   Michael Hingson  02:05 So let's start with the usual tell us a little bit about you in general, share some things maybe they that you'd like people to know about you.   Lisa Kipps-Brown  02:16 Okay, well, I'm an entrepreneur, I've been an entrepreneur since 1990. And in 95, I used to be an accountant. And in 95, I discovered web design. So I ditched all the accounting stuff I was doing. And in 96, I started a web design company. So ever since then, I've been doing web and marketing strategy. And I'm now you know, because of all the platforms out there that people need less coding, and so forth. Most of what I do now is big picture strategy for companies, helping them disrupt their own business, so to get them out of a rut.   Michael Hingson  02:56 What got you into web design? I mean, why did you decide to do that from what you were doing?   Lisa Kipps-Brown  03:01 Well, I would, at the time, I owned a business that I was consulting with other small businesses. So I was working on big picture strategy anyway, but mostly within kind of the financial area. And I was also the financial controller for an international software company. But I didn't like accounting. I was really good at it, but I just didn't like it. And one of the young guys, I was the only American working for the company. And one of the coders was like, Oh, you ought to check out web design. Well, I'm 60. Michael. So back when I was in college, when you took coding, you took Fortran, which meant he had to sit there and do the punch cards. I was like, No way. I'm not doing that. Well, we also did basic and that was on a PC, but you still wasn't like immediate gratification. But he piqued my interest enough that I looked into it. And I realized, oh my gosh, I could combine my business background and my creativity and my low threshold for boredom, let's call it and I could combine all of those things and help businesses in a way that other people wouldn't be able to just because of the variety of my background, so I ditched everything accounting, and have been and have been doing everything pretty much web based ever since.   Michael Hingson  04:28 I remember being in college at UC Irvine and the first computer that I was really exposed to was an IBM 360 Of course we had IBM Selectric terminals and of course you're right Fortran and and some other things along the way. And then basic did come along. I never did learn COBOL but I did take Fortran although I don't remember a whole lot of it now and probably   Lisa Kipps-Brown  04:58 wouldn't be very easily. I hated that, you know, the punch cards and everything. But I love the logic behind, you know, when I was actually coding with web design, I loved it because it was like solving puzzles. But I didn't have to go through the misery and drudgery of sitting in line and doing the punch cards and having them compiled. So it's funny how if you can figure out what you like, like inside of yourself, not the task, but why you like things and why you don't, it will really help you find your thing in life that you're meant to do.   Michael Hingson  05:34 I remember, the first time the university got a card punching device that had an 80 character display. So you could actually put all of the characters in, proofread it, and then push the button to punch the cards. Oh, wow.   Lisa Kipps-Brown  05:54 See, we didn't have that. They may have already had it. But they may have made us do what we were doing. Because it was like, computer science 101 or whatever. I just know, I hated it.   Michael Hingson  06:06 I think yeah, but I think it was, was probably pretty sensible to have the punch card device with a display because it meant you didn't waste as many cards. It didn't change the logic or anything. It only said, Okay, did you really mean to put these characters in before you push punch. So a lot of times this, of course, none of that was usable by me directly. But I remember being involved with a number of people and observing them and talking with them. And they said it was such an an amazing improvement. Because now they made many fewer mistakes. By the time the card got punched, yes. And so that when it got punched, if it messed up, then it was a different kind of a problem. It wasn't a typo. Typically, it was perhaps a little bit of an error in logic or an error and understanding something about coding. But you're right. Programming is a wonderful way to explore and think about puzzles. It's all about logic. And as we know, the machines do just what we tell them or they did them. But we now have the the arena where we're moving more into artificial intelligence. And the day is going to come when machines really will be more unpredictable to us. Because they're thinking among themselves. Of course, science fiction writers have been writing about that for a while. And as late as Dan Brown and origin and other things like that. And of course, Ray Kurzweil talks about the singularity when we marry our brains and computer brains, and then it will be really interesting to see whose will will win out.   Lisa Kipps-Brown  07:53 But yes, it will be.   Michael Hingson  07:57 It will be interesting. But computer programming was was very fascinating. I took one year of information, computer science, and it was all required part of our degree programs and physics and so on. And and used and we use the computers a lot, we use the 360. Then we got a PDP 10 into the system. And of course, all of us just worked at remote terminals, albeit sometimes in the computer science building in the computer room, but a lot of times in physics, our access was through remote terminals in a completely different building. So it was a while actually once I joined UC Irvine before I actually got to go in and and visit the computer room and experience it close up. But it was a lot of fun.   Lisa Kipps-Brown  08:49 Yeah, it is. And you know something else funny about it. When I was in college I never studied. Well, I didn't in high school either. But I drove my my roommates crazy because I would never study but I always got A's and B's, because I just learned really easily. Then when I discovered web design, of course back then there was no Google. And there was really no resources online even without service to the learn. So I would buy all these coding books, and go to bed with my coding books. I mean, by that time I was 35. And my roommates, if they came to visit, they were like, Oh my gosh, I cannot believe you have a book and a highlighter. And I said well, it just goes to show you if you find something that you really are interested in, you know that it makes all the difference in being motivated or not.   Michael Hingson  09:40 I don't remember for sure the author but one of our computer science teachers told us that one of the standard jokes they had for a while was that when you enrolled in ICS one information computer science one. The first night the professor would say You know, our textbook is entitled Introduction to Programming. And I think the author's name was Ken Ingram, I'm not sure. But you need to read chapter one. And he told us about it, because Chapter One was literally half the book. Oh my god, you had two days to read it. It's pretty clever. But still, you know, we all learned and, and I very much enjoyed. What? Taking computer science courses, physics and so on. Did because there was logic to it. And it did create and answer puzzles. And it was always fun when you when you got a puzzle that you had to, to work on figuring out whether it was programming it or especially when you get into physics and dealing with a lot of the theories and expanding on them. It's all about puzzles.   Lisa Kipps-Brown  10:54 Yes, for sure. Just so was your major physics?   Michael Hingson  10:59 Yes. I love that. My master's is in physics.   Lisa Kipps-Brown  11:02 Okay. Okay. I didn't realize that. That's cool. So it   Michael Hingson  11:07 was a it was a lot of fun. And I did, I did pretty well with it. I did study a lot I needed to do that. Partly, I think for me, also, was that I had challenges with access to information, of course, being blind. Yeah, especially back in the 70s. And even earlier, but for me, the 70s information was not readily available. And when I needed a physics book, I had to get the professor's to tell me what they were going to use in class months ahead of time, which they were very resistive to doing. Because Oh, we want to wait till the last possible. Second, we want to get the latest thing. And I said, Look, here's the problem. And some of the we're not very sensitive to it. And I had to invoke pressure from part of the the university administration. And there was a person, Jan Jenkins, who later became Jan Jergens, who was the person who ran the Office of Special services for persons with disabilities at UC Irvine, and Jan told me early on, I'm not going to do things for you, I'm not going to do things for any of the people who come in here, I will facilitate for you. If you're not able to get a professor to give you the information, then I am the the person at the university who can help make that happen. And and I think that's always been the way it should be done. We have too many, we have too many college programs out where the the office does everything you want to take a test, we'll set it up for you. You You need something you just tell us we'll do it. If students don't learn that level of independence to do it themselves, if they don't learn to hire their own readers and fire their own readers. And yes, we still need people to read material from time to time, although there's now other technologies that help but if you don't learn to do those things, it doesn't serve you well later in life.   Lisa Kipps-Brown  13:09 For sure. So the books, the books for your courses, did you were you able to get them in Braille? Did you have to have somebody read it to you? Or did you buy an audio book or what the   Michael Hingson  13:21 problem was, especially in math, and physics, and so on is doing it. And they were available in recorded form sometimes. But that doesn't really work. You know, you don't, you don't study or analyze from an audio book, you need to be able to go through it, you need to be able to search it, you've got to be able to go forwards and backwards and sideways and so on. So the only way to really do it is Braille. Yeah. And Braille is a technology that any person who is blind should use and I define blindness. And we've talked about it on these podcasts a little bit. But I define blindness as a situation where if your eyesight is diminished to the point where you need to use alternatives to print to do things, no matter what the alternatives are large print, closer to television, or braille or whatever, you should consider yourself blind and learn blindness techniques. Because if you don't, especially if you're losing your eyesight and you lose the rest of it, then you're going to have to be retrained. And psychologically you haven't made that leap. So for me, getting the books in braille was important. And the reason we needed to have the information and access to the books months in advance is that back in those days, people would hand transcribe the books. My favorite transcriber, a lady named Eleanor savage who I finally got to meet years and years later, but Eleanor actually took a cruise every year around the world and what she did is she took her brailler and most of the time as part of that cruise she was transcribing physics books for me A great idea. And and she and she was great at her job. She knew the mathematical code, the Nimeth code for Braille mathematics, she was able to transcribe the books. And as a result, I was able to have the mostly on time, which, which was great.   Lisa Kipps-Brown  15:19 I totally agree with you, Michael, about people making. Basically what you're saying is people need to put themselves out of their comfort zone, because that's how we grow. And like you said, you need to be prepared. I have, I have a vision issue that it doesn't interfere too much with me now, but I never know when it might. And so I do things like when I get up at night, and I will do this anyway. But I don't ever turn on the lights when I get on it. Get up at night, I do things like that, to force myself to think without seeing being able to act without see.   Michael Hingson  15:52 Right? Well, what what got you into this mode of really thinking about doing things without eyesight?   Lisa Kipps-Brown  15:59 Well, my father was blind, he was not born blind, he started losing his sight when he was eight. And both of his retinas detached. So by the time he was, I guess, probably 16, he was totally blind. So of course, he never saw us, or anything. But growing up around him, he was just daddy to us. You know, we didn't think about him being blind, because he was just there, he rode horses, he shot guns, he owned his own business, he even mowed the grass. And because he would mow barefoot on because he could tell with his feet, which grass was longer and which wasn't. So when growing up around somebody like that, I didn't realize how different he was because as the city was just daddy, and you know, all of his adult friends would always be like, Oh my god, your father is so amazing. And I'm like, okay, whatever, you know. And it wasn't until I was an adult that I really realized how amazing he was. But I'm never ever one time in my life ever heard him say I can't do that. He had a lay a full woodworking shop in our basement with the lathe and all this stuff. So the point of that is that when you grow up around somebody like that, it's like osmosis, you just naturally think differently, because you're around somebody who was constantly adapting and figuring out how to do what they want to do, even if people think they shouldn't be able to. And so I realize how him losing his sight. Gave me and my sister such an advantage, just because of growing up with him.   Michael Hingson  17:45 So he learned to solve puzzles.   Lisa Kipps-Brown  17:49 Yes, yeah.   Michael Hingson  17:52 In every sense of the word, because that's, that's what it's about. I wonder what people thought when they saw him mowing the lawn barefoot. Oh, wow.   Lisa Kipps-Brown  18:02 They probably were, well, where they live. We live in a rural area. And their house was beside my grandmother's and my aunt so I don't know if really anybody saw him besides him. But people have seen him do a lot of things that they just cannot believe that he has done and um, I mean, he rode like he would do trail rides, the whole weekend long and it'd be like on his horse, it'd be like 35 miles each way. And things like that. The house that I own now is actually on a lake and when I was growing up a friend of his and it I found out after I bought it that at one of the parties that his friend had that a bunch of them were going to go waterskiing with daddy wanted to drive the boat. So they took him around the lake a couple times for him to get his bearings, and he drove the boat for the site admin to water. See, I'm not saying that was a good idea. But that was a it didn't surprise me at all that he did. And I'm sure there was a sighted person sitting beside him just in case something had gone wrong. But you know, yourself. It's almost almost like sonar y'all see, but you see in a different way than we do.   Michael Hingson  19:14 Yeah, I was thinking that probably someone sat next to him because it would be really hard to hear. Maybe not too hard. But when you're getting close to the shore, so you make the appropriate turn. There are sounds and you could learn to tell the difference from being in the middle of the lake when when you're there as opposed to being at the shore. But if it were me, I would want someone to be there just to make sure I had that information. Right now. Maybe it's because I haven't learned to do that.   Lisa Kipps-Brown  19:47 No, I cannot I didn't ask his friend that was telling me I can't imagine that they didn't have somebody beside him but just the fact most people would never dream that somebody has can't seek to do something like that. It's like going to our cabin in the mountains, it's 120 miles from our home. And you know, he'd been going up there his whole life riding in the car with different people. So if he had somebody take him up there who had never been before, and it was just them in the car, he could literally tell them every turn, yeah, like, oh, about, you know, a half a mile up the road, you're gonna go around the curb and a dip and blah, blah, blah, and it blew people's minds. But as I said earlier, he it was so ingrained in him, because he felt it and, and heard it. And that was the way he could visualize if you will, to give directions to somebody else.   Michael Hingson  20:47 Sure. Um, I know, and I can do the same thing. What really amazes me is having now used a guy dogs, most of them can be asleep on the floor in the back seat or, or up between our passenger seats in our in our van today. But they could be asleep on the floor, and wake up when we turn on to our street. Uh huh. I think that's even more amazing. Because for me, knowing where I am, when I'm traveling to and from a place on a regular basis, frankly, that's easy. Yeah. And I think that it gets back to the point, that eyesight is not the only game in town. And the reality is that we don't, as a, as a people choose to learn to use the alternative techniques that blind people do, that might enhance our own lives, as people who can see. And that's why one of the reasons it's the best training centers for blind people teach partially blind people to travel under blindfold. And then they say, Look, when you go out in the world, as long as you can see, you still have that eyesight, but use your cane in conjunction with it, and enhance what you do. And the people who adopt that philosophy, find that it really makes a great difference in how well they can function and how well they do function. Because they've learned the techniques, and they've psychologically accepted that there's nothing wrong with being blind.   Lisa Kipps-Brown  22:26 I love that. That's great.   Michael Hingson  22:29 So it makes perfect sense to do. And, and it's, it's something that I wish more people would would recognize. And it's kind of why I adopted in our book, Thunder dog, in this section called guide dog wisdom. One of the lessons that I say we learned from Roselle on September 11, is don't let your sight get in the way of your vision.   Lisa Kipps-Brown  22:52 Oh, yeah.   Michael Hingson  22:55 Because it happens all too often.   Lisa Kipps-Brown  22:57 And, and an example that I think all of us can relate to, is Google Maps, or any map thing, somebody will be driving, and they can see the road signs or whatever. But if the map tells them to do something, and even if they see it, they're like, oh, but the map said in people, you know, it's relying too much on other things. And so that's not a really, that's not the same thing. But it does show how people will rely too much on something at the expense of something that's basically right in their face, telling them what to do.   Michael Hingson  23:36 Right? Well, and there's nothing wrong with going by what the map says. But what we don't learn to do is to use all the information to our senses. To accomplish a task, we don't use everything, we rely on one thing, we don't look at everything that's available to us to make the most intelligent decision that we can make.   Lisa Kipps-Brown  24:00 Right? So an extreme example of that would be if a street says one way do not turn in the map and saying turn, obviously you're not going to turn. But you know that that's an extreme example, and I haven't been with anybody that does that. But I've even been with people that know where they're going. And they will still turn at a different place just because the map tells them to even though they've been to the place a million times. So it's it's pretty funny how people give up their own control by defending and things like that.   Michael Hingson  24:33 I have been in cars where people did exactly what you just said they go by the map as opposed to and they have turned the wrong way. Fortunately, they weren't very busy streets. So we we survived. But still, people do that, rather than looking at everything around them. And I really wish that as a people we would teach ourselves and our parents would spend more time teaching us To observe and think and question and analyze, because, as you know, from dealing with puzzles no matter what they are, that's what it's about.   Lisa Kipps-Brown  25:10 That's right. I'll give you another example of something that he did with us that we didn't think much about it at the time, but we would have been learning from, he would play basketball with us. So we had a basketball goal that he actually built for us, he, you know, dug the hole and put the pole up and everything and the concrete, and he would play like horse and around the world, those kinds of things. And we would knock on the post of the basketball goal, so that he could get his bearings where it is. And then in his mind, you know, he would calculate the height and, and he would shoot, and he was really good at it. So think much about it. But, but when you see somebody doing those things on a regular basis, and never saying, Oh, I can't do that. I mean, literally the first time he did it, it would, he would have been like, he probably just said, Let's go play basketball or shoot basketball. And, um, so when you're around people like that, you just absorb that way of thinking, in that no challenge is too big.   Michael Hingson  26:21 And, you know, even if you don't accomplish everything in the challenge, you learn from it.   Lisa Kipps-Brown  26:28 That's right. Yeah, a lot of NASA we learned the most from our failures, don't we?   Michael Hingson  26:33 We do. And, and what's a failure? It's an opportunity to learn, like, What's the mistake? Was it a mistake when you made it? Probably not. People would judge it as a mistake. But the real question is, you did it, what do you learn from it? And if it was a mistake, can you improve upon it? I was talking with someone this morning, we're actually working toward writing a new book, called standard dog is out there still, which is our my story of being in the World Trade Center. But we're writing a new book. Originally, I talked about our thought about calling it blinded by fear or not. Because most people really are blinded by fear. And when I say blinded, I mean that they tend to just totally let fear take over and they can't deal with moving forward. They don't know how to make decisions. They lose perspective. But we actually changed the title of it. It's actually now been submitted as a proposal. So we're hoping that a publisher will pick it up. But our our latest title is a guide dogs Guide to Being brave. And we're doing it from the standpoint of Roselle, who was with me in the World Trade Center, of course, on September 11. But we talk a lot in the book about life choices. And do we go back and analyze and I was talking with my my colleague who's helping to write the book, my co author, Carrie Wyatt can't. Can you trace your life back to the choices that you've made? Can you go back and look at your choices, and see what brought you to where you are and what you learned along the way? And we both agreed, most people can't do that. And what started it was that I made the comment, I can go back and look at my life. I know the choices that I've made along the way, especially the major ones over the past many number of years now being close to 72. But I know the choices that I've made, and I know what I've learned each time from those choices. And that's invaluable.   Lisa Kipps-Brown  28:42 Yes, it is. And I remember, this is just one small example for people out there. I remember you and I speaking this past summer and you were talking about being in an airport or something and you said you wanted to get lost. So that then you could learn your way around or something to that effect you didn't somebody to just lead you to where you needed to go, that you needed to find it on your own. So you can learn from it   Michael Hingson  29:09 did a lot of that in the World Trade Center. And the value was that it got to the point where I couldn't get lost in the World Trade Center. With within a few seconds of just doing some listening and observing. I always knew where I was.   Lisa Kipps-Brown  29:23 Yeah, because everything sounds different from the different angles in the floors. And not that I can't hear it that like y'all can. But I think I am more aware of it than most people out here things in our house. I'll be like, What is that noise and my husband's like, what noise? And then I'll just go looking and looking until I trace track it down and I'll find some little something you know, yeah. That's pretty cool, though that you couldn't get lost.   Michael Hingson  29:52 Well, and the the reality is that that you could learn to do that. You know, people always say To me, well, you're blind. So your your other senses are heightened. And someone at one of the training Senator center centers, senators, they need training. One of the training centers that I've visited over the years said, Is that No, it isn't a matter of heightened senses, other than you've trained yourself to heighten your senses. And the the fact is that any number of sighted people have done that look at SEAL teams look at a lot of elite military people look at people who are very deeply involved in something or other, they become focused, and they've trained themselves to deal with a lot of those things.   Lisa Kipps-Brown  30:46 Yeah, follow through. Yeah, when I get up in the night, and I don't turn in the light. So many times you would think he would remember because we've been married 34 years now. But very frequently, it'll wake up my husband, he's like, wait, you want me to turn on the light? I'm like, no, no, turn it on. Don't turn in. I want to do it in the dark. You know, I just like the challenge.   Michael Hingson  31:09 Or, or better yet, and why aren't you learning to do that? Exactly.   Lisa Kipps-Brown  31:13 Yeah. Why do you have to turn over life for everything. And, you know, Daddy would be in the basement. He had a dim down there, and he would listen to music all the time. And somebody if somebody came to see him, and they might say something like, How do I turn the light? And he's like, why do you need light? I don't have a light. You know, he'd always give people a hard time. You don't need a light   Michael Hingson  31:32 to waste of electricity. Exactly. Yeah, well, Dick herbal Shimer, who is my geometry teacher in high school, who we've stayed very long time friends with, tells the story, and I had actually forgotten it. But he came over to our house. Once, when I was in his class, as I say, we became very close friends. And he wanted to see our ham radio setup. And my father and I were both ham radio operators by then. And we went into the den where it was all set up. And he said, I remember saying, Well, you know, I'm not able to see it very well. Can I turn the light on? And I? And I said, Well, why? Sorry, I forgot. But we'll accommodate you, you know, but yeah, it is it is what people are used to. And every time you have a power failure, what's the first thing you do you go find a candle or a flashlight, rather than maybe learning not to be so quick to use those and and raising your own senses simply by training yourself to listen, or to observe in other ways?   Lisa Kipps-Brown  32:40 Yeah, and a lot of times it's not even really that dark, even if it's in the middle of the night because the moon or you know, so be it's just such a habit for people to feel like they have to have that light.   Michael Hingson  32:54 Now then there are some people who are really scary share Heckerling, the founder, or co founder of accessiBe, tells me that one of his best friends who is blind is one of the chief coders that they work with. And this gentleman, being blind, can write code, carry on a conversation with you, and be listening to music all at the same time. Yes, scary. I don't have   Lisa Kipps-Brown  33:26 to do that. I can type and carry on a conversation at the same time. And but I don't know if I could pay attention to music, but I'm just so used to that, you know, because my husband would be like, You're not listening to me. I'm like, yeah, yes, I am. That's cool.   Michael Hingson  33:45 Well, I can type in carry on a conversation at the same time, sometimes I do realize that accuracy might not be as good or, or I know that I made a mistake. And I have to go back and correct it more as I'm typing. If I'm carrying on a conversation at the same time.   Lisa Kipps-Brown  34:01 Code is way different than just, you know, for me to just be typing something. Do writing code is way different. Because you really have to be right with that.   Michael Hingson  34:13 Well, again, you you develop a mindset and you develop and train yourself to be able to do that. I'm sure. It's very doable. It's just not something that I've learned to do. So I just choose to be jealous of that guy who can do it. Yeah. It's a life choice.   Lisa Kipps-Brown  34:30 Man, you do other things that he's probably jealous up. So   Michael Hingson  34:35 I guess probably so. So, you know, you you've done some writing, you've written some books, right?   Lisa Kipps-Brown  34:45 Yeah, I've written three, the latest one release this past summer in July.   Michael Hingson  34:52 What is that one called?   Lisa Kipps-Brown  34:53 It's called Disrupt your Now the successful entrepreneurs guide to reimagining your business and last   Michael Hingson  35:00 Tell us about that, if you would, please.   Lisa Kipps-Brown  35:02 Okay, well, over all of these decades of helping business owners, I realized that a lot of the people that I work with, they start a business and they're like, Yes, I'm gonna be my own boss, and I'm gonna, you know, control my life, and yada, yada, yada. And then before they know it, they realize they built a business that they don't even like, they don't want to own, but they're trapped. Because I'm like a job, you can't just walk away. And my theory on it is that the reason they do that is because they're paying too much attention to what everybody else is doing, instead of what they want their life to be like. So you know, people within an industry, they'll look around at competitors, or whatever, and they'll think everything they're doing, I need to do. But if you want a different type of lifestyle, then you need to do it differently than they're doing it. So like for me, even though I own a web design company that you know, there are a lot of agencies out there, they have a lot of employees, I have never wanted to have many employees, because I don't like managing people, I don't want to be tied to one place geographically, which was another reason I really loved web design when I when I on, discovered it in. So there, I like for my life, I like to be able to adapt it as I go. So like when my mom got Alzheimer's, I can adapt my business. So I like having a really agile business that I can change on a whim that somebody else who's building a business to sell, they're going to need to make different decisions than I did. And if we are copying each other, then we're not going to end up with what we wanted. So that's why I wrote the book disrupt your now. And really I tell people stop thinking someday or one day and start thinking right now, what are some things that you can do now to start making your life and your business what you want it to be?   Michael Hingson  37:11 So let me name two people, Mark Zuckerberg and Bill Gates. Why were they successful?   Lisa Kipps-Brown  37:19 Oh, well, part of its timing part of its doggedness, part of its vision and creativity, I'm sure that you're   Michael Hingson  37:32 well, and what I was thinking of was just in terms of what you're saying, they chose to be different. Or Jeff Bezos is another one. They, they, they envisioned what they wanted. And they were open to exploring ways to make it happen. I mean, look at what Jeff Jeff Bezos did, even though he doesn't always make things as accessible as we would like. But none of them do, actually. But Jeff Bezos created this company, to sell books, and to then later to sell other things online. And I remember for years, Amazon was not very proud, well, was not profitable. And he kept saying it's going to be and he kept doing various things until he made it successful. And make no mistake, it came from him. Yes. Steve Jobs apple. It started out and originally, the Macintosh wasn't necessarily the the greatest thing. But he worked at it. He had a vision. And then Apple took off,   Lisa Kipps-Brown  38:47 right? You know, with an Amazon, I actually the first book I wrote, and some other books that I didn't write, I actually sold those on Amazon and back in the 90s 97 to 2000, before I sold the company, and that was when most people didn't even know hadn't even heard of Amazon yet. You know, but, um, so I've been following him for many, many years. But and that's the thing, it's like people don't, they don't understand how to think differently, just like we were talking about with our senses. They get so ingrained in making decisions based on the ways that they think they're supposed to make them that they don't look at alternatives. So I'll give you a business example for me. So in 97, I was working with a client whose she owned the company that had had print products and it was a set of technical books, gods and and of course, they will print books and her husband had died of cancer. She sold up inventory, she could not afford to take it back to print. So she was gonna go bankrupt and started talking to her. Why have these three questions, Michael that? So I'm going to stick this in here at three questions that I use that I realized I got out of growing up around daddy. The first is fly. The second is why not in the third is what if. So with her without me thinking about it, I'm like, Well, why don't you figure out a way that you don't have to pay for it? And she goes, Lena, oh, how can I ever do that? Well, I actually got books pre ordered, gave people 25% discount. So by the time she had to order, she had enough money, she didn't have to pay for it. But then I was like, why not figure out a way that you can do have this product, but having in a version that you don't ever have to have print? And she's like, How could that be possible. And remember, this is 97 I so I know, we can figure out a way that you could turn the the books, each individual page into a file online for people to download, because a lot of the people that used it were marine surveyors and yacht brokers and stuff. And of course, she thought I was crazy. But I said, if you did that, you could update it constantly. You wouldn't have to wait a year or two to add the next volume. And then lastly, what if we could actually create an entire new revenue revenue stream for you? So long story short, I developed a system for her to turn the books and the individual it they later ended up being PDFs. At first, they weren't just images. But we sold subscriptions, and yearly and monthly subscriptions for professionals that needed it. But we sold daily subscriptions to Joe Blow that was interested in just researching boats, like having a glass of wine. And he's like, Oh, I think I want dreaming of having a bed. You know, we want to be able to look at technical line drawings and stuff. So we created a whole new business model. And this was in 9798. Nobody, that all of the subscription based businesses back then online, were basically internet service providers like AOL, stuff like that. And I actually sold it right before the.com bubble burst. So that's an example of nobody would have back then no, nobody would have ever thought about taking a book and turning it into something digital. And I doubt I would have if I hadn't grown up with my father, you know, just having that different mindset.   Michael Hingson  42:44 But also, you had the opportunity to ask those questions, because someone came along who had a problem? Yes. And you recognize the inspiration that came into your mind about why why not? And what if? And it seems to me the most powerful of those three questions is what if, yeah, because that's the one that really makes you vision?   Lisa Kipps-Brown  43:04 I agree. I love the whole idea. The why is the part that people are like, are you crazy? This is why it's obvious why I'm doing it. And the why not? Is then they really, it's pushing them out of their comfort zone. Oh, you know, like her? How can I have a book that's not printed? So it's like the why the why not? It's easing them to that third class question. What if? And what if is the disruptive question that think of something like your wildest dreams of what if you could do something this way? What would the craziest idea be? And there's probably a way that you can actually make it happen?   Michael Hingson  43:45 Yeah, the what if gives you the general question, then you get to the details.   Lisa Kipps-Brown  43:52 I'll give you an example, not entrepreneurial. And so I was working with a woman who had been laid off from a government job. And she said a half to get another job and government because of the retirement plan, and so forth. And but she had been really unhappy in the job. And I said, Why do you want to get back into a similar situation when you were so unhappy? And you know, you automatically have the bureaucracy and the six steps of promotion? Why not try to find something simple or something better in the private sector? And what if you could get a job with a fast growing private company, that literally there's no limit to your ability to grow that they could even create a position for you once they get to know you? So she ended up after several months of me coaching her and adapting her skills, translating her skills over and so that she would understand that yes, she did have the skill set for this. She took a job with a private company, and she's making 60% more a year than she was making. I'm like, you can take every bit of that and invest it into a retirement plan, you know, instead of being stuck down at the lower level, just so that you can have this retirement plan.   Michael Hingson  45:19 How long ago did you do this?   Lisa Kipps-Brown  45:21 This was this year.   Michael Hingson  45:23 Okay. And so the question is, since you obviously, keep in touch with her right now, is she happier?   Lisa Kipps-Brown  45:29 She loves it there. And the really cool thing, Michael, is that it's b2b. So as she's working, she's working in this place, that there's really unlimited potential, because of the kind of company it is, but she's also working with business clients. So she's making great contacts, that that also increases her opportunities in the long run, because you never know who she might meet, that they might decide they want her. Her world is just so much bigger now.   Michael Hingson  46:06 And she gets to be creative. And maybe when she was in the government job, and I don't know, but I'm assuming from my experiences in dealing with the government world, she, her creativity was very possibly greatly stifled. Now, she might have to relearn to do some of that. But she gets to be creative.   Lisa Kipps-Brown  46:26 Yes, be creative. Again, he can in people think creative means art and stuff, no creative thinking, and thinking strategically and thinking differently than than other people think. And she's really good at that. But you're right, it had gotten very stifle. So now she's having to nurture that part of herself again, because she does have the freedom to use that talent.   Michael Hingson  46:53 Well, and the other part of it is, what's wrong with questioning? Why What's wrong was saying, Well, yeah, that's the way we've always done it. But why do we need to do that? Why not explore something different? Or of course, then take it to the what if we did this instead. But But bottom line is, what's wrong with questioning and exploring, and making yourself and others think more creatively and thinking about all the various options to get the best solution?   Lisa Kipps-Brown  47:31 Actually, I think there's nothing wrong with it. And I think if more companies and even the government, but let's just stick with business, I think if more companies encourage their employees to think entrepreneurially, the then employees would be happier, they'd be more productive, they would end up in positions that they're better suited for. And the company would end up more prosperous and more valuable, if they would just allow people to think entrepreneurially. And instead of everybody being afraid, they're going to do something wrong. And everybody thinking bureaucratically,   Michael Hingson  48:10 there's a TV show that that Karen especially likes to watch, and we binge watched three episodes earlier this week, I in one of them, someone was hired to manage our actually be head chef at a restaurant. And in this restaurant, everything was done a certain way. The ketchup would go in the middle of the plate, so you could put it on easily your steak or your french fries. And what this person did was put the ketchup on the side. And management couldn't understand and wouldn't accept the concept of doing something different. And maybe there's a reason for doing that.   Lisa Kipps-Brown  49:01 What was that show?   Michael Hingson  49:04 It shows that people aren't open to new ideas are open to exploring other ways that may be better.   Lisa Kipps-Brown  49:11 For sure. Now, I mean, what is the name of the show, though?   Michael Hingson  49:14 Oh, what was the show? It's called a million little things.   Lisa Kipps-Brown  49:18 Oh, I need to watch that. Okay, I need to check that out. That sounds really good. It's   Michael Hingson  49:23 put on a few years, and she she especially really likes it. So but I think it's a very relevant point. Why is it that we have to do it a certain way and you know what, it is possible that maybe there was a lot of analysis and there was a lot of thought that went into doing something in a certain way, but then explain it will help people understand it, because if you do that one of two things will most likely happen. One is they'll say oh, okay, or they'll say, Yeah, but what if we look at this? Yeah, and, and both of those are reasonable scenarios. But it starts by accepting the fact that it's good for people to learn and understand and analyze.   Lisa Kipps-Brown  50:19 Yeah, you You are so right. Let me give you another example. Because I think it helps people learn when they have different types of examples, but I love that capture point. Um, so last year with the Cares Act, most communities when they got money for businesses, they would just divvy it up and somehow decide which businesses got how much money. So it would be a certain number of businesses, small businesses, that got you know, a chunk of money. And it just kind of stopped there. It helped them and help them keep employees on but it didn't do anything exponentially in the community. So I worked with one of my colleagues who, by the way, the tourism director there used to work for me. So I know what a creative thinker she is. And she went to her County and said, Look, I have money left in my tourism budget, can I take that and match it with the Cares Act money that we're having, and figure out a way that we can do a matching gift card campaign so that the money could also benefit, it could benefit more businesses. So what we ended up doing is, we developed a system that you could go on as a citizen and buy a $40 gift card for any of the businesses that were participating, but you only pay $20. So you as a person who lived in that community, were automatically saving $20. And then $40 went to the business, whose gift card you were buying, right? So the net effect, we turned $900,000 into 2.7 million, because they did the matching. And what was really cool is most people think, Oh, well, gift cards, they think shopping and restaurants and stuff. And there's nothing wrong with that. But we had businesses in their like daycare centers, Dentist medical centers, car repair, fuel oil. So imagine the the family who, you know, may have low wages anyway, but also maybe worried about keeping their jobs. And all of a sudden, they're able to buy these gift cards and get their childcare for half price for a few weeks. So I was really proud of that, that and you know, it's just sitting there and go, and why do we just want to give the money to a few businesses? Why not figure out a way that more businesses can benefit? And what if we could figure out a way that citizens could also benefit from it?   Michael Hingson  53:11 Why is it that bureaucracies and governments so stifle creativity? And so strongly disincentive people for being creative? Or maybe the better question is, how do we change that mindset? And I know that, in part has to come from getting the right leader to really run it. But it is so unfortunate that we we so poor, are so pervasive about not encouraging questioning, and creativity and so on. It's just so unfortunate.   Lisa Kipps-Brown  53:49 Yeah, it's like, this is the way you do it. This is it, do it this way. And growing up, we're taught to be like that, in school and everything, these this is what you do. These are the rules, and you're supposed to do it. And, you know, I think part of it with business starts with efficiency and so forth. But I think a lot of it is fear. Because you think about it with a company, a manager, whether it's a middle manager or a top manager, they are afraid to change things because they are being judged on the performance up, and rightfully so, you know, they need to the company needs to be profitable, but it makes them more afraid to try anything that might be disruptive in a good way. You know, and but that's how the big changes come about. It's not the small things like you know, just making something that looks a little bit better. It's the disruptive changes that that changed the whole focus for industries.   Michael Hingson  54:50 Well, and they also fear that somebody come up will come up with a better idea than they have had, or maybe a better way Doing things, and this other person will get the credit and they will lose out. Yeah, and we don't recognize that a leader who truly leads also knows when to let somebody else take the lead on doing a project. And that the real leaders are the people who can direct and guide and inspire. But may or may not necessarily have the right idea or the only or the best idea, but will encourage other people to come up with ideas. And in fact, that may catapult someone else into a great position. But the true leader who adopts that mindset, is never going to fail. And they're and they're always also going to feel really good about what they did to bring this person into the, into the limelight, if you will.   Lisa Kipps-Brown  55:57 100%, I'm in total agreement with that I had a great, I have a guest on my show the other day on my Disrupt your Now show, a woman who has developed a disruptive platform for human resources. And it is so cool. And that is her whole thing about helping companies start thinking differently in managing their personnel and turning away from performance reviews, and all those things that people ate, and making it more people based and smell things along the way. So we had a conversation about this exact thing about allowing people to be more entrepreneurial.   Michael Hingson  56:40 I remember working for a company once, and I worked in a remote office, the founder and owner of the company are one of the two founders, but the president of the company was back seeing how we were doing and we went to dinner, and we were talking about salaries and what people made. And he conveyed the message that it was really unfortunate and crazy that salespeople made more money than he did. And he could not understand why anyone would think it's a problem, that the President didn't necessarily make the most amount of money in a company like that particular one, and that, that salespeople could make much more money, even if it's just in one month. But he couldn't understand how that could happen. And why that anyone would find that acceptable.   Lisa Kipps-Brown  57:43 Yeah, I've seen people like that, too. And they don't understand that if, if you don't have the people making whatever it is you're selling, if you don't have the people who can sell it, you don't have a company, so he wouldn't have a job if it weren't for those people. But people at the top, a lot of those people have too much too big of egos and too much self importance. And they automatically think that there's so much worth so much more, rather than, hey, I owe my position to them, I owe my success to them.   Michael Hingson  58:19 And in the long run the executive, if they make the company successful by hiring people, who may be in the short term make more money than they do. Those people, if they've structured a right will be fine. financially.   Lisa Kipps-Brown  58:36 Yes, yeah. everybody ends up better off,   Michael Hingson  58:42 of course, and that's as it should be. It's, it's all again, going back to the mindset, and how we choose to approach what we do and how to approach life. And so having the concept like disrupt your now is, is so important. And I could say it's unfortunate that we have to have that kind of a concept. But we do because we get so locked into a pattern that we don't look at alternatives. I'm a great Star Trek fan. And I remember watching some of the Star Trek movies like The Wrath of Khan, which, which I thought was probably about the best of the Star Trek movies. But one of the things that was talked about in that movie a lot was how people thought. And I don't know whether you watch any of the science fiction movies, but one of the the villain, as Spock put it to Captain Kirk, once tends to think in two dimensions. And of course, you're in space, which really means you can do three dimensions. And by changing Kirk's mindset with that, they won and we're able to succeed but we We don't tend to be nearly as open sometimes as we should be.   Lisa Kipps-Brown  1:00:05 Yeah, I need to go back and watch that, Michael, because I'd forgotten about that. It's been years since I've watched it. It's just easier to go, you know, the path of least resistance, get up and do the same things. Like we've always done them. It's just easier and most people prefer easy. Most people don't really want excitement. And I'm one of those people. One of my biggest fears is boredom. Just like I like making things exciting. And I like figuring out different ways to do things.   Michael Hingson  1:00:39 I'm not sure it's necessarily easier. If you have a mindset that encourages you to if some people say, think outside the box, if you think differently. In fact, if you're constantly doing that, you may find that that's easier anyway. Because you're you're looking for the easier way to get where you want to go. And both of those are part of it.   Lisa Kipps-Brown  1:01:07 Yeah, definitely. And I can tell you doing things, the accepted way is definitely not easier for me. It's, oh, gosh, it's like, it's like torture, because I'm always looking for just it doesn't have to be necessarily actually a doing something differently, son. And that's what people have a hard time understanding. I just like looking at everything. Why are we doing it this way? You know, why is it that way? Why can't it be another way?   Michael Hingson  1:01:43 And again, as long as you look at it that way, and you're open to options, you may find that the way you're already doing it is the best way.   Lisa Kipps-Brown  1:01:56 Right? Yeah. Cuz then you've got verifications.   Michael Hingson  1:01:59 There's no need to change, just to change, you should change because there's a reason to change. Exactly. Yeah. And I've been in situations where people say, Well, yeah, maybe we've always done it that way. But we're going to do it this way. Because we should try something different. Why?   Lisa Kipps-Brown  1:02:15 Exactly. Yeah. And I'll tell you, that is a big problem, when new blood comes into a company, because they want to make their mark, you know, and they want to be like, Oh, we're gonna do this big thing. You know, it might be a manager of a product line or whatever. You know, Pete, nice, er, manager or whatever. But they want to come in and do they want to try to come in and do things their way so that they have a win that then they can brag about? But many times, it's it would be better off leaving it like it is and finding something different to go after.   Michael Hingson  1:02:54 Right? That's the other part of it. Well, I have to ask you about your involvement in NASCAR and some projects with that. I know that's how we originally met you we were introduced by Herbie wetzler who we're also going to have on unstoppable mindset. But tell me about NASCAR and what you've done and what what the project is.   Lisa Kipps-Brown  1:03:19 Yeah. So this is another thing that came out of those three questions on calling Garrett is a young NASCAR driver. Three years ago, his dad contacted me to talk about strategy. I don't know if the listeners know very much about NASCAR. But it's a brutal sport, the drivers have to bring their own sponsors in. And they're basically free agents. And once a sponsor comes into NASCAR, there are very few truly new sponsors at the higher level. Usually what happens is a new sponsor will come in and then once they get in there, they realize, oh, this is really cool. You know, and then other teams try to poach them or they start looking around. So it ends up everybody's going after the same buckets of money. So with him, I said, Why do you want to go after the same same buckets of money, you've got to figure out a way that you can make yourself be the only driver that could do something for people? Why not figure out a way that you're the only one and so nobody can take your the partners who truly are the best partners for you. Nobody can take them because they are not able to do what you are able to. And then the what if became, what if you could help other people while you're doing it? Because he really wanted his career to me more than entertainment when he was older. He and his dad had had that conversation that they really wanted it to have a bigger meaning. So we ended up I'll fast forward through but we ended up on Promoting racing for heroes and the Rosie network, which are two nonprofits that help veterans and military families and racing for Heroes is suicide prevention. And they provide free mental and physical health services job training, job placement in the Rosi Network provides entrepreneur services. So we were working on this, we were promoting them pro bono, we crowdfunded the first race for 2020, we beat our goal, we had never crowdfunded, we beat our goal of 200,000, and were able to raise enough to pay for stem cell treatments for veteran with multiple sclerosis. So that made history two things of making history right there, the Crowdfunder in the stem cells. Then we brought in the first service disabled black owned, small business sponsor, we also um, we had a the opportunity for micro businesses to be part of the marketing campaign, if they gave just $10 to the crowdfund or they got to use a badge in all of their marketing, it had the NASCAR logo on it and Collins logo. So that had never been done before. And that was for veteran owned and military spouse owned businesses. That was another way for us to give back to them. And then this past summer, as you know, we had the first Braille paint scheme in NASCAR in the first blind, don't sponsor and I am very happy to say that access to be was one of the sponsors on that car. And that car was all about access, access to resources, whether it's online, or healthcare or education, or whatever. But um, oh. And we had the first blind gun sponsor, who was also Hopi Wendler. So even with COVID, we have made NASCAR history in five different ways, that are all about helping other people and that are all about bringing some kind of access to people, whether it's healthcare, job training, entrepreneurial training, yet, all those different things. And I'm just really proud to be a part of it. But it's very personal to me on many levels, because my husband is retired Navy. So I know how hard it is when they transition out of the military to fit back in, you know, into the civilian world. My grandfather killed himself when I was five. And my grandmother tried to when I was three, I mean, three years later, when I was eight. So the suicide prevention, I know had the ripple effects. And that that has, and then, of course, daddy being blind, and me being able to have Hobi, and except to be on the car and having the Braille paint scheme. All three of those things are just so important to me personally, and it just makes me feel really happy that we've been able to do it.   Michael Hingson  1:08:12 It sounds exciting, of course, it's a bigger challenge to having to do it during a COVID environment in the COVID year, but you're persevering?   Lisa Kipps-Brown  1:08:22 Yes, we are right now we are fighting to get funding for next year. And you know, still with COVID going on, we're not able to do we have really wanted to rely mostly on crowdfunding, but like everybody else, we're having to adapt. Because people, you know, average people are less able to give to campaign. So we're turning more to corporate sponsors again. But unlike other, whether it's a nonprofit or sponsorship type thing, unlike all the other people that are going after those buckets of money, we approach it as a b2b service. We talk to potential partners, and we're like, what is the biggest problem that you have in business? And how can we help you solve it, it might have nothing to do with the race car at all, you know, but by them sponsoring the car, they have access to all of us all of we we have experts who can then help them in their business. And we've done things like help a convenience store that find and vet and locate good veteran products to carry. And if you think about that, that would be hugely expensive to do. Because first you have to do the research to find the products and make sure they're good and make sure it's not something that's already in a bunch of stores. Then you also have to vet the veteran because there's so much stolen value So we have about 50,000 businesses, veteran and military spouse owned businesses in our network, and the Rosi network, one of the nonprofit's we promote, they actually already vet businesses to make sure that they truly are veteran or military spouse owned. As a matter of fact, they do that for Google. Also, they're the exclusive provider of that for Google. So with this convenience store, we already have this huge network and we could readily recommend products to them. The Ro

John Shimer is a director of Fortune Family Foundation, a charitable corporation that provides assistance to non-profits focused on fostering self-sufficiency. For 33 years, Shimer was a fundraising manager and consultant for hospitals, human welfare agencies, and similar organizations. He is the author of "Turn Right at the Dancing Cow," the story of a "human angel" from Seattle and the vocational school she established in Uganda. He's the founder of the new Angels Among Us Project, which seeks to spotlight the best and most inspiring of human behavior..*** AND NOW ***The ‘X' Zone TV Channel on SimulTV - www.simultv.comThe ‘X' Zone TV Channel Radio Feed (Free - No Subscription Required) - https://www.spreaker.com/show/xztv-the-x-zone-tv-show-audio The ‘X' Chronicles Newspaper - www.xchroniclesnewspaper.com (Free)To contact Rob McConnell - misterx@xzoneradiotv.com

John Shimer is a director of Fortune Family Foundation, a charitable corporation that provides assistance to non-profits focused on fostering self-sufficiency. For 33 years, Shimer was a fundraising manager and consultant for hospitals, human welfare agencies, and similar organizations. He is the author of "Turn Right at the Dancing Cow," the story of a "human angel" from Seattle and the vocational school she established in Uganda. He's the founder of the new Angels Among Us Project, which seeks to spotlight the best and most inspiring of human behavior..*** AND NOW ***The ‘X' Zone TV Channel on SimulTV - www.simultv.comThe ‘X' Zone TV Channel Radio Feed (Free - No Subscription Required) - https://www.spreaker.com/show/xztv-the-x-zone-tv-show-audio The ‘X' Chronicles Newspaper - www.xchroniclesnewspaper.com (Free)To contact Rob McConnell - misterx@xzoneradiotv.com

IN THIS EPISODE WELLLL! WELL IT'S THE BIG SHOW! That's right, Reuber and Shimer take a look at their heavenly father, Big Show and look at the best match he has ever had with The Big DOG Roman Reigns at WWE Extreme Rules 2015. THE MATCH https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aQ4Dlrbxax0 THE BEST IN THE WORLD PODCAST Zach Reuber, Zach Shimer, and Penny Feather take a look at some of the best professional wrestlers and the best matches they ever had. Give a listen and give us a follow! And while you're following, follow us on social media! Facebook - @BestInTheWorldPod Twitter - @BITWPod FOLLOW THE HOSTS TOO Reuber - @MacReuber6754 Shimer - @Zach_Shimer Penny - @Penny_Feather Support our announcer Zane Pasley! @zanepasley BUY OUR SHIRTS teespring.com/stores/bitwpod --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

My guest today is Ted Shimer leader of The Freedom Fight, to talk about one of the most important issues facing men, marriages, and our entire society right now. That issue is the challenge of porn addiction among people both outside and inside the church. There are powerful studies and statistics showing how this issue is becoming even more of a challenge on a daily basis, and we discuss how to recover from this addiction.Please know this episode deals with mature content, it is not appropriate for young children. If you listen to this show with your kids, please know that while there is no inappropriate language in this episode, we are discussing adult topics, and we do not suggest children listen to this conversation.Ted Shimer has mentored men since 1991 with the collegiate ministry Student Mobilization. He received his Master of Arts in Biblical Studies from Dallas Seminary and was trained as a Pastoral Sex Addiction Professional-Supervisor. Ted has helped people overcome the bondage of pornography in the context of making disciples. Ted is the Founder of The Freedom Fight, an online porn addiction recovery program. Ted and his wife Amber have four adult children and live in Fayetteville, Arkansas.  Questions Answered:How do you define porn?What is your story of creating The Freedom Fight?Can someone have an addiction to porn?What are some of the slow deaths that pornography leaves in its wake?How common is porn use within the church for members and leaders?Why does the church need to address porn use and addiction?How does your organization help pastors who are dealing with porn in their own lives?What opportunities within the church exist to lead pastors and men through these challenges?What are suggestions for men to begin recovery without shame or judgement?What is some of the brain science on how porn addictions develop?How does a man's porn use impact his wife and his marriage?What do you suggest for a wife of a man who is struggling with this addiction?How is porn impacting kids today?Important Links:You can learn more about The Freedom Fight here.You can sign up for the free 30-day Freedom Fight Challenge here.You can read stories of victory from people who have recovered from this addiction here.THE FELLOWSHIP BROTHERHOODAn exclusive community of like-minded Christian men, who meet each week to learn, laugh, hold each other accountable, and walk through life together.Join this exclusive brotherhood here.THE BASECAMP EXPERIENCEFour days and three nights of life-changing and intense training for Christian men in the glorious mountains of Colorado.Apply for this Adventure here.Join the free Significant Man RECHARGE men's FB Group here.Subscribe to the Significant Man YouTube channel here. Connect directly with Warren here.Purchase Warren's books here.

S3E7 The Freedom Fight, winning against p*** with Ted ShimerTed Shimer has mentored men since 1991 with the collegiate ministry Student Mobilization. He received his MABS from Dallas Seminary and was trained as a Pastoral Sex Addiction Professional-Supervisor. His discipleship background, theological instruction and world class clinical training gives Ted a unique and grounded approach to porn addiction recovery that is biblically based, scientifically sound, gospel centered and effective. Today on the show, we'll hear from Ted Shimer, the founder of the Freedom Fight, an online porn addiction recovery program. We go deep on this tough topic, so if you've got young ears in the area, make sure you've got headphones on! Today on the Anthem of the Adventurer Podcast:Deep dive into the addicted mindThe B.R.A.C.E. method6 reasons men become addicted This week's adventure challenge:She also challenges us to get completely down on the ground and get up 5 times in a different way. And do it outside! Do this each day for a week and let us know how it goes! “God wants to give you the freedom to run the race He's given us to run." - Ted Shimer Today on the Anthem of the Adventurer Podcast:  Mentioned Resources:The Freedom Fight websiteThe Freedom Fight book  Connect with Ted Shimer:● The Freedom Fight on Facebook  Thanks for tuning in!Thanks for joining us on today's episode of the Anthem of the Adventurer podcast! If you enjoyed today's episode, please head over to iTunes and leave us a rate and review to help us reach even more adventurous souls. Don't forget to check out our website, visit us on Facebook, or hang out with us on Instagram to stay up-to-date on the adventures we're having! To incorporate some more adventure into your life, check out The Adventure Challenge and use the promo code DAN10 to get 10% off your first order! 

IN THIS EPISODE The trio takes a look at Gail Kim. Named one of the greatest women's wrestlers ever, Kim has had quite a career. Spending time in WWE on two occasions, Kim really cut her teeth in the wrestling promotion, TNA, known as Impact Wrestling today. In TNA, she became the first-ever TNA Women's Knockout Champion. She would go on to win the TNA Women's Championship 7 times total as well as hold the Knockouts Tag Team Championships one time with Madison Rayne. In 2016, Impact Wrestling inducted Kim into the TNA Hall of Fame, the fifth person ever inducted and the only woman to be inducted. Reuber, Shimer, and Penny look at Gail's match against Awesome Kong at Final Resolution 2008, one of the great matches in their legendary rivalry. THE MATCH https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMKL-qZZTbE THE BEST IN THE WORLD PODCAST Zach Reuber, Zach Shimer, and Penny Feather take a look at some of the best professional wrestlers and the best matches they ever had. Give a listen and give us a follow! And while you're following, follow us on social media! Facebook - @BestInTheWorldPod Twitter - @BITWPod FOLLOW THE HOSTS TOO Reuber - @MacReuber6754 Shimer - @Zach_Shimer Penny - @Penny_Feather Support our announcer Zane Pasley! @zanepasley BUY OUR SHIRTS teespring.com/stores/bitwpod --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

We had the privilege to interview Ted Shimmer on Pornography. Packed full of great tips, views, and ways to get help if you or somebody you know is struggling. Resources: https://thefreedomfight.org/

IN THIS EPISODE Reuber, Shimer, and Kovich take a look back at 2020 and give out the most prestigious awards for Best Wrestlers, Best Matches, and more. THE BEST IN THE WORLD PODCAST Zach Reuber, Zach Shimer, and Penny Feather take a look at some of the best professional wrestlers and the best matches they ever had. Give a listen and give us a follow! And while you're following, follow us on social media! Facebook - @BestInTheWorldPod Twitter - @BITWPod FOLLOW THE HOSTS TOO Reuber - @MacReuber6754 Shimer - @Zach_Shimer Penny - @Penny_Feather Kovich Crow - @KovichCrow Support our announcer Zane Pasley! @zanepasley

When it comes to pornography, many of us can't help but wonder how harmful pornography actually is. In this episode, Shane asks subject-matter expert Ted Shimer all the questions he's wanted to ask about pornography. Check out Ted's book The Freedom Fight: The New Drug and the Truths that Set Us FreeSupport this podcast at: https://donate.givedirect.org/?cid=4942Ted Shimer has mentored men since 1991 with the collegiate ministry Student Mobilization. He received his MABS from Dallas Seminary and was trained as a Pastoral Sex Addiction Professional-Supervisor.His discipleship background, theological instruction and world class clinical training gives Ted a unique and grounded approach to porn addiction recovery that is biblically based, scientifically sound, gospel centered and effective.Ted is the Founder of The Freedom Fight, an online porn addiction recovery program.Ted and his wife Amber have four adult children and live in Fayetteville, Arkansas.https://thefreedomfight.org/https://www.facebook.com/thefreedomfight1

IN THIS EPISODE We take a look at the Ring General, WALTER. He's a WWE United Kingdom Champion, a modern legend on the British Wrestling scene, and just an overall phenomenal wrestler. He's been unstoppable in WWE for over 600 days. Today, Reuber, Shimer, and Penny look at WALTER and Tyler Bate at NXT TakeOver: Cardiff, as Bate tries to take the championship away from WALTER. THE MATCH https://watch.wwe.com/episode/WWE-NXT-UK-TakeOver-Cardiff-104499 THE BEST IN THE WORLD PODCAST Zach Reuber, Zach Shimer, and Penny Feather take a look at some of the best professional wrestlers and the best matches they ever had. Give a listen and give us a follow! And while you're following, follow us on social media! Facebook - @BestInTheWorldPod Twitter - @BITWPod FOLLOW THE HOSTS TOO Reuber - @MacReuber6754 Shimer - @Zach_Shimer Penny - @pennyfeather616 on Instagram Support our announcer Zane Pasley! @zanepasley --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

IN THIS EPISODE The trio takes a look at a very different boy, Jimmy Lloyd. Someone who can do a little bit of everything, he is well traversed in hardcore and deathmatches. To some delight and to some horror, Reuber, Shimer, and Penny look at Lloyd taking on Masashi Takeda at Joey Janela's Spring Break. THE BEST IN THE WORLD PODCAST Zach Reuber, Zach Shimer, and Penny Feather take a look at some of the best professional wrestlers and the best matches they ever had. Give a listen and give us a follow! And while you're following, follow us on social media! Facebook - @BestInTheWorldPod Twitter - @BITWPod FOLLOW THE HOSTS TOO Reuber - @MacReuber6754 Shimer - @Zach_Shimer Penny - @pennyfeather616 on Instagram Support our announcer Zane Pasley! @zanepasley --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

IN THIS EPISODE YOU KNOW THEY SAY ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL, BUT YOU-You know what, we're actually not going to do that. Rick and Scott Steiner are without a doubt one of the greatest wrestling tag teams of all time. Showing off power, energy, technical mat wrestling, and charisma, they pulled off magic in the ring. After a little debate, Reuber, Shimer, and Penny decided to check out Pro Wrestling Illustrated's 1991 Match of the Year. The Steiner Brothers vs Sting and Lex Luger at WCW's SuperBrawl 1. THE MATCH https://watch.wwe.com/episode/Superbrawl-1-9389 @ 01:42:38 THE BEST IN THE WORLD PODCAST Zach Reuber, Zach Shimer, and Penny Feather take a look at some of the best professional wrestlers and the best matches they ever had. Give a listen and give us a follow! And while you're following, follow us on social media! Facebook - @BestInTheWorldPod Twitter - @BITWPod FOLLOW THE HOSTS TOO Reuber - @MacReuber6754 Shimer - @Zach_Shimer Penny - @pennyfeather616 on Instagram Support our announcer Zane Pasley! @zanepasley --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

IN THIS EPISODE The Trio give a highlight to rising independent star, Lee Moriarty. Moriarty has been all over the indies, including GCW and AIW. Moriarty has locked up with the likes of Tom Lawlor, Wardlow, Myron Reed, and more. Today, Reuber, Shimer, and Penny look at what Moriarty says is his best match, which is the third match in his trilogy with Alex Shelley at Absolute Intense Wrestling's Built To Last. THE MATCH https://independentwrestling.tv/player/lx4RXDx7NO @ 00:23:03 THE BEST IN THE WORLD PODCAST Zach Reuber, Zach Shimer, and Penny Feather take a look at some of the best professional wrestlers and the best matches they ever had. Give a listen and give us a follow! And while you're following, follow us on social media! Facebook - @BITWPod Twitter - @BITWPod FOLLOW THE HOSTS TOO Reuber - @MacReuber6754 Shimer - @Zach_Shimer Penny - @pennyfeather616 on Instagram Support our announcer Zane Pasley! @zanepasley --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app