Podcasts about Chick Hearn

What happens when the career you built changes, disappears, or no longer feels right? I talk with content marketing leader Nicole Pytel about career change, burnout prevention, imposter syndrome, entrepreneurship, professional identity, and the growing role of AI in content marketing. Nicole shares how she moved from sports journalism into business, built her own agency, learned to shut work off, and later chose employment over entrepreneurship without seeing it as a step backward. We also explore what layoffs can teach us about identity, why confidence can exist beside fear, and how AI can support human skill instead of replacing it. Her story is a strong reminder to trust what you know, keep learning, and ask yourself one powerful question: Why not you? Highlights: 21:44 - The turning point that pushed Nicole to leave television. 28:50 - Why never shutting off from work led to burnout. 39:34 - How confidence can exist alongside fear and imposter syndrome. 45:35 - What a layoff can reveal about professional identity and self-worth. 50:24 - Why AI still needs human judgment, strategy, and creativity. 1:00:24 - Why trusting your gut can make career change worth the risk. About the Guest: Nicole Pytel is a content marketing leader who's spent her career translating complicated things into stories people actually want to hear — first from a newsroom, now from the executive table. Her career started in TV news as a sports reporter, where she covered the legendary Friday night lights of high school football and spent her Saturdays on the sidelines of Texas A&M's Kyle Field. She was eventually promoted to news anchor, and those days of turning complex topics into compelling stories still shape how she approaches content strategy today. Nicole then spent nearly a decade as the founder of Premier Content Source, a content marketing agency she grew to serve over 1,000 clients across multiple industries. She later worked as an embedded content marketing expert inside teams at Google Cloud, Chrome Enterprise, and YouTube. Most recently, Nicole served as Vice President of Content Marketing at Firebrand Communications, where she built the agency's content marketing line of business from zero and held a seat on the executive leadership team. Today, Nicole is focused on how AI is changing content marketing, building a four-chapter framework for how content teams should operate now that AI has fundamentally changed how buyers search, discover, and evaluate the companies they work with. Whether it's a thirty-second news segment or a company's entire content strategy, Nicole's guiding belief hasn't changed: if you can't make the audience care, you're just making noise. Ways to connect with Nicole**:** LinkedIn, https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicolepytelmarketing/ About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson  00:04 What if the biggest thing holding you back isn't what's in front of you, but rather what you believe? Welcome to Unstoppable Mindset, where inclusion, diversity, and the unexpected meet. I'm your host, Michael Hingston, speaker, author, and advocate for inclusion and possibilities. This podcast explores how the beliefs we carry shape the way we live, lead, and connect with others. Each week, I talk with people who challenge assumptions, face adversity head-on, and show what's possible when we choose curiosity over fear. Together, we focus on mindset, resilience, and the small shifts that lead to meaningful change. Let's get started. Well, hi again, everyone, and once again, it is time for another episode of Unstoppable Mindset. We are having a lot of fun doing these podcast recordings, and I really appreciate all of you being out there. Love to hear from you if any of you have any comments on any of the things that we talk about, or even if you don't comment anyway. We'd love to hear from you, but I really appreciate you all being here and and and interacting with us today. We get to chat with Nicole Pytel. My screen reader pronounces it Pytel, but you know we were just besmirching technology, and it deserves it because it should pronounce it right. But anyway, that's okay. But no help. Nicole has been very much involved in a lot of content marketing and in a variety of things. I think we're going to have a lot of fun chatting and talking about different business things, and who knows what else will come up in the course of the conversation. That's what makes it fun because it is truly and always is intended to be a conversation. And who the heck knows where things may go as we follow along? But we'll make it work. So Nicole, welcome to Unstoppable Mindset. We're glad you're here. Nicole Pytel  02:08 Thank you for having me. I'm thrilled to be here. I'm so excited, and yeah, I can't wait to see where the conversation goes. Michael Hingson  02:14 I can't either. It'll we'll have a lot of fun with it. Well, I love to start this way. Tell us about the early Nicole, growing up and and all that. Let's get people to have a chance to get to know you a little bit. Nicole Pytel  02:28 Yeah, well, the the early Nicole is a a Florida native. I know people are always a little baffled by that. Not everybody in this state is from a transplant from New York or Philly or Boston or any of those places. Some of us are born here. And have you made Michael Hingson  02:43 and have you made friends with all the gators? Nicole Pytel  02:46 Ah, no, no. I stay away from the gators. Antisocial, Michael Hingson  02:50 aren't Nicole Pytel  02:51 they? They're yeah, they're they're a bit unfriendly. Yeah, I've I've never seen one in the wild, and I I'd like to keep it that way. Yeah, I hear you for sure. Yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, born in Miami, grew up in Fort Lauderdale. the The only daughter of two former Miami Dade police officers. So, yes, yes. My mom was actually an undercover narc in the days of the cocaine cowboys. So, she is incapable of being intimidated. And personally, I think she's amazing and also a little crazy for doing that. But yeah, grew up as an only child, had you know four-legged brothers. You know, just had a great childhood. You know, just really like as great as it could be. You know, dad worked from home, had his own business. Mom worked with dad a lot of the time and was in the PTA and running the Girl Scouts and the young astronauts and all all the things. So, you know, really great childhood and a lot of lessons that really kind of you know still stick with me today and kind of gave me that foundation to go and do all the really cool things I've done as a grown-up. A lot of lessons learned. So you know, it was a good childhood. Michael Hingson  04:06 What did your dad do, and what does he do? Nicole Pytel  04:09 He well, he was after he left the police force. He started his own business. He reconstructed traffic accidents. So he was an expert witness. His clients were personal injury attorneys in South Florida, which is probably the worst client you could have on the planet. Those are some demanding folks. He handled it really, really well. He had his own business for gosh, 30 years. So yeah, he was he was amazing. Michael Hingson  04:38 Did he ever consult for CSI Miami. Nicole Pytel  04:43 No, he did not. Just checking. Did not. The one that was the one cool thing he didn't do. No. Michael Hingson  04:48 Yeah. Well, talk about the potential for pressure, but that's okay. Sounded like he had a a good time and enjoyed what he did, and and it does sound very fascinating. It is. It is Nicole Pytel  05:02 indeed. Although you know, when you're learning to drive as a teenager and your father does that for a living, you know, you've you've seen all the terrifying accident photos and heard all the stories, and so it's a it's a little stressful learning to drive from somebody who sees the worst of the worst every single day, but you know, we made it. Michael Hingson  05:23 And did Dad work as a backseat driver for you every so often? Nicole Pytel  05:27 Oh, 100% 100% literally. I mean, till the day he died, he was the world's worst backseat driver. I, you know, I'm in my 30s, and he's like, "What are you doing? You know, so yeah, absolutely, 100% Michael Hingson  05:42 How about mom? Nicole Pytel  05:44 Oh, mom, mom is amazing, and yes, she's a backseat driver as well. Okay, I am as well. So, but you know, mom, mom is tough and and also amazing, and you know, such a a great mom to her fur kids and a good grandma to my fur kids, and you know, just just amazing the life that she's had. You know, just grew up as a State Department brat, lived all over the world, was cop, like just wild, just wild. So I I have I have some very cool parents. Michael Hingson  06:15 Do you have any kids of the two legged variety? Nicole Pytel  06:18 Not the two legged variety. I've got two of the four-legged kind. Yeah, Michael Hingson  06:22 that works. Yeah, they're they're demanding enough. Nicole Pytel  06:26 Oh, mine are little little tiny divas. Absolutely, and I'm proud of it. They were raised to be little spoiled divas. Michael Hingson  06:33 Well, I have my guide dog Alamo, and we have a cat who's now 16 and a half years old, named Stitch. She's the real demanding one, she she likes to be petted while she eats, and the only way to keep her from disturbing a podcast to get fed is to keep the door closed, which I do. But the the thing is that if if the door opened, she'd probably be in here, and she would be insisting pretty loudly if I didn't respond, that she needs me to go pet her while she eats. She loves it, and it's fine. There are just a few times that she doesn't get to do it, and mostly she's pretty quiet about it since the door's closed. But when we're done, I'll open the door, and I will hear from her pretty quickly that time for more food. Nicole Pytel  07:21 She's got you well trained. Very good. Have you well Michael Hingson  07:24 trained? Yeah. Now Alamo, Alamo, my guide dog, is a clock watcher, so he's going to get his his afternoon treat a half hour late, and and he's pretty quiet about that sort of stuff. He's pretty pretty nonplussed about it. He won't come over and bug me, even though he's here in the room during the podcast because he knows what's going on, but by the same token, as soon as we're done, he's going to be out there going, "It's after 130, Buster. Nicole Pytel  07:51 I hear you. Minnie, Minnie and Megs will be the same way. Don't you worry; it'll be time for their dinner when we're done here. So, yeah, they'll they'll be ready. Michael Hingson  08:00 Yeah, well, and Stitch also gets some treats in the evening. She gets them around 630 at night, but at five she starts demanding them, and she doesn't want to eat anything that's left over in her food bowl. She wants her treats, and she knows she's not going to get them until after 630, but she pushes anyway. Ah, it's fun. I wouldn't have it any other way, though. Nicole Pytel  08:23 No, absolutely not. They are just little rays of sunshine. Michael Hingson  08:27 They are. So you went to college, I gather. Nicole Pytel  08:30 I did. I went to the University of Miami. Both my parents did as well. Dad actually played football there back in the day. Yeah, actually, I mean, honestly, growing up, I pretty much lived at the Orange Bowl on Saturdays. We had season tickets to the Hurricanes, and you know, learned about football very, very early on. I was actually, I think I was like five, and I was sitting there on a Saturday playing with my Barbies, and Dad came in and was like, "All right, come on, put the Barbie dolls down. We're gonna go watch football. You're gonna learn about football, and I was I was hooked ever ever since. So you know, who needs copies? Michael Hingson  09:10 I got hooked more on on baseball. Of course, I still am of the opinion that for the longest time, we had the best announcers in baseball here in California. We had Vince Scully, we had Dick Enberg, and so many people. And I learned baseball from Vin Scully. I learned all about the rules and so on, because he could announce the game, and he could include stories, but never missed announcing what was going on on the field. So you you got both, and I don't think there are many announcers today who can do that. And they've got buddies, and they they kind of talk together, but they're yammering a lot and not announcing the game, which is all the more no fun. So yeah, what do you do? Nicole Pytel  09:54 Yeah, there's something special about those guys that can just do it solo for nine innings, especially with all the break. In between pitches and things like that, I mean that's it's a lot of air to fill. So yeah, I mean Vince Gully. There's there's nobody better to learn from. Michael Hingson  10:09 No, nobody better than Vinny ever ever in baseball. And and as I said, Dick Enberg was out here, and and then in basketball we had Chick Hearn who could talk faster than anybody in the world, which was pretty cool, and there were some other announcers. They weren't necessarily just announcers like Vinny. I mean, Harry Carey, who did the Cubs, and but he was well loved and had a great personality, and it was a lot of fun. But Vinny was definitely the best, and then Dick Enberg, who also did football, and I learned a lot about football from from him, which was kind of fun. But I've always been a baseball fan. Nicole Pytel  10:46 Same, I love baseball as well. There's just something so quintessentially like wholesome and American about baseball. It's just like the hot dog, and you know, there's just something about baseball where you just feel like just a pure good old fashioned American kind of thing, you know. It's just got this feeling Michael Hingson  11:08 to it. Yeah. Well, so you went and got. Did you do advanced degrees or just a bachelor's? Nicole Pytel  11:14 I did my bachelor's. Yeah. I I went into broadcasting. Actually, majored in in broadcast journalism and psychology. Ah, wow, that's a Michael Hingson  11:23 combination. Nicole Pytel  11:24 It is, you know, I the psychology part. You know, I've always been fascinated of like why people do what they do, and I wanted to be a sports journalist. You know, ever since I can remember, and I was like, well, what a great way to really understand people if you're going to interview them and talk to them all the time, and and tell them stories, you know, through the TV. Like, what a great way to understand them. Take take psychology, learn all about that. And and now that I'm in marketing, it's it's the same thing. Trying to figure out, you know, why'd they click on that ad and not this one? Why'd they open this email and not that one? Why'd they, you know, read this case study and not that one. So it's it that that major was kind of the gift that keeps on giving. Michael Hingson  12:07 Now you, so you got your bachelor's and then you went into broadcast journalism. Nicole Pytel  12:13 I did. I did. I I took off to College Station, Texas, to be a great reporter. Yeah, really no better place. I mean, you know, you start in broadcasting, and you're going to start in a small market. And there's all kinds of cities in in the country that I'm sure are lovely, but you've never heard of them before. Your God only knows what you're going to cover. But I was very, very blessed. I got to go to College Station, Texas, so that is the home of Texas A and M, and of course Friday Night Football, the local high schools. You know that the that was my job to cover that stuff. So you can't really ask for anything better than that for a first job out of school. Michael Hingson  12:55 So did you did you announce the games or what did you do? Nicole Pytel  12:58 I didn't. I was a I was a sports reporter for one of the local affiliates in town. So, and I was a one-man band. So I shot everything, edited everything, reported everything. I did, I did all the things, all the things. No photog following me around. No, no, nothing. It was all me. So I was the one, you know, on the sidelines shooting the games or standing behind home plate, and you know it was it was fun. It was it was definitely an adventure. We could probably do an entire podcast just on crazy stories about that. Well, Michael Hingson  13:29 how long ago was that? Nicole Pytel  13:30 Oh gosh, more years ago than I I'd like to think. My goodness, I went out there in 2006. So Michael Hingson  13:39 digital cameras had started to come into play. Nicole Pytel  13:44 Yeah, sort of. Although when you're working in a small market, they don't have the newest equipment, so the cameras were still big and heavy. You had this big bag of stuff to lug around. You had the big heavy tripod. You know, you're kind of going like carrying your weight in stuff. Yeah, you know, and and I'm doing it, you know, depending on where I'm going, you know, in in like dress clothes and and heels and and trying not to fall over, you know. So, but um, yeah, no, it's that was still the big and bulky stuff back then. Michael Hingson  14:14 Yeah, yeah, I'm I'm not surprised, and at the same time, you did it. What's what's the most memorable, if you have one, memorable event or thing that you can think of that you did while you were out there in Texas doing football and baseball and all that? Nicole Pytel  14:30 Oh man, there's there's so many, there's so many. But I think one of the coolest things I got to do was, you know, Kyle Field, which is Texas A&M's home stadium. It is it is enormous. It seats you know 100,000 plus people, and you know being there on a Saturday is is unreal. It's loud. Those are probably some of the most devoted fans on the planet. They never sit down. They they. Practice all their cheers the night before. I mean, it's just wild. But you know, I used to do obviously during the season. I'd go to the weekly press conferences during the week, and I'd I'd do stories. And you know, I never. I don't know if I ever told anybody this publicly, but they used to leave a chain link gate open at Kyle Field on Tuesday afternoons. It was just unlocked, and so I would I would go in there, and the stadium would be totally empty except for me, not a soul. And I'd go in there, and I was you know shooting my own stuff. So I had it all figured out where exactly where I had to put the camera and exactly how I had the angle of the tripod and exactly where I had to stand, so that I could get there. Home of the 12th man sign like right over my shoulder, the perfect shot for you know my stand up and my story. And so every every Tuesday I'd go in there. I'd kind of sneak in. I don't know to this day if they ever knew I was in there, but but being in there, you know, on the 50-yard line of this enormous stadium, all by yourself-it's totally silent. You know what it's like at at peak velocity volume, and being in there all by yourself, you're just like, this is the coolest thing I know ever. Like this is amazing. It's wild. It's just wild. Michael Hingson  16:19 Well, I won't tell anyone. I mean, it's sort of like Vin Scully, who always said, "This is between me and you, nobody else. Nicole Pytel  16:24 Exactly, exactly. Michael Hingson  16:26 Nobody will hear it. It's okay. That's that's cool. The only thing I would say about that is, and I experience this. If you talk about crazy fans, Kentucky and football is just as challenging, I went to do a speech somewhere, and the speech was on Monday night. It was the NCAA championship in football, and the and the Kentucky Wildcats were one of the teams. And I was told that my speech had to end at 630. It could not go any later because if it went later, I'd be speaking to an empty gym. Nicole Pytel  17:04 Yes, you would absolutely no pressure, no pressure. No, no Michael Hingson  17:07 pressure at all. Well, I kept an eye on the time and and ended it right at 630, and by 631, the place was empty. It was crazy. Nicole Pytel  17:14 Cleared out, cleared out. Well, hey, that speaks well for you that they were all there before the game. They weren't tailgating or anything, you you were bigger than the tailgate. Michael Hingson  17:22 I guess so, but it was it was fun, and and then you've got North Carolina for basketball, so oh yeah, it's again it's it's pretty amazing. Well, how long did you do your your stint dealing with sports and and being in the news media? Nicole Pytel  17:41 Yeah, so I was a sports reporter for two years, and then my contract was up in the summer of 2008 when the the economy was not so great. Yeah, and I I didn't want to stay in my job not because I didn't love it. I just wasn't really making any money. You don't make any money in TV. That's the big secret. It looks so glamorous, and and you're broke. But it was so it was basically impossible to get another sports job at at that time, you know. And I got a really good opportunity at the station I was at. They were like, you know what? Like everybody in town knows you. They see you on the sidelines. They see you behind home plate. Like they see you at all the things. And so why don't you be the main news anchor? Because they were rebranding the station, and I said, you know what? Okay, cool. I'll do that. You know that that'll be something new and different. And you know it kind of hurt to leave sports, but it was a challenge. You know to be the main anchor and the producer. So it was it was my show to run. So I did that for two years as well. No pressure, no pressure at all. No, it's fine. Michael Hingson  18:51 Yeah, Nicole Pytel  18:51 pressure. Michael Hingson  18:53 So you did that for two years, and then, Nicole Pytel  18:56 and then I left, and I totally did something different. I left TV and I started my own content marketing agency. Just me, myself, and I, and my little my little built-in desk in my kitchen in my apartment. So couldn't be more different. Michael Hingson  19:12 Did you do now? Was that in Texas? It Nicole Pytel  19:15 was in Texas. It was you know it was it was you know time to leave TV, and it was just like, okay, well, what am I good at? Like, what can I do? And I said, well, shoot, I can write anything, you know. So I'll do content marketing, and and there's so many journalists that go into PR. That's kind of like the the thing they all do. And I was like, I don't want to do that. Like, I don't know. It's just like being on the journalism side, you know, all the PR people. It's like, oh, come on, guys, stop! So I went into content marketing, started my own agency, just just me, myself, and I. And you know, was it was scary, but it was fun. It was you know throwing yourself into the deep end of the pool and and seeing if you could swim. If Speaker 1  20:02 you enjoy Unstoppable Mindset and would like to help us continue bringing these conversations to you each week, we've created a way for you to support the show. Your contribution helps us cover production costs and continue sharing stories, insights, and ideas that inspire people to live with purpose and possibility. If supporting the podcast feels right for you, you'll find the link in the show notes. Thank you for being part of the Unstoppable Mindset Community. Michael Hingson  20:35 So now, tell me something about what content marketing Nicole Pytel  20:40 is. Yeah, so you know content marketing, and and I I've always been on on the B 2b side, the business to business. So and usually, and most of my career has been in in tech. So you know, selling very expensive things to people who are very skeptical of whether or not it works and don't want to make the wrong decision on you know a six figure platform or something like that, and it's really the content marketer's job to really kind of give them almost like a buffet of things that that they need to really figure out. Okay, what problem do I have? What solutions are there for this problem? Like, who are the different vendors? What what are the different ways to solve this problem? What makes all these vendors different? How do I know which vendor you know will actually give me ROI? Like, do they understand my business? Do they understand people like me, and then you know, getting them all the way through until they're ready for a sales conversation. And as you might imagine, people don't like to talk to salespeople. They're you know at this point probably probably 80% of the way through. You know they they probably are pretty set on on which vendor they're going to go with before they talk to sales, but you know there's all kinds of different marketing. But content's the one that really runs the whole gamut of everything. You know, you everything ties back to content because you've got to bring them to something. Like you know, ads have got to drive to something. The website's got to say something. You know, like PR has got to plug something. So, you know, content's kind of that that through line for the entire process of them making these, you know, huge expensive decisions. Michael Hingson  22:33 Well, still going into content marketing, since you were in TV, is a pretty major, pretty major switch all the way around. And what makes me curious is how did you discover you really knew and understood content marketing? And more important, even than I guess, would be since you loved TV so much, when did you decide that it was worth staying in TV than it was to switch careers? That had to be a pretty scary thing, or maybe it wasn't. You may be just used to doing that sort of thing. Nicole Pytel  23:05 Yeah, no. Leaving TV, there was a there was a day, you know, when I knew I was done with TV, and and I was kind of frustrated with it. You know, you're not making much money, and and at that time it was so tough. The economy was was still tough, even even a couple years after that, and and it was just was tough. And news is a totally different kettle of fish than sports. Sports is is fun, and the fun stories and the feature stories and news is just it can be depressing. It can you know, it like you know. If it bleeds, it leads. That's you know where we're at, and that just started to get to me. And there, there was one day where things were just really, really slow, and and I was just like, oh my god, we don't have a lead story, and time is a ticking, and 10 o'clock is coming, whether I'm ready or not, and it's not like you can get on TV and go. Well, hey, good evening. Nothing happened today. Shut off your TV and go to sleep. And that's a story. That's a story in and of itself. Nothing happened, and I was really struggling. Like, oh my God, what's the lead story? What's the lead story? Am I going to have to take something and just kind of you know make make chicken salad out of chicken you know what and try to pass this off as important, and then we heard over the scanner there had been this this fatal car accident and this teenage girl had died in a car accident you know and for a split second I thought, "Oh, thank God, I have a lead story. And then, in the next second, I went, "Oh my God! Like, how is that your reaction to this story? Like, this girl is gone; her family is destroyed forever. Like, how did your brain even get to oh my god?" Thank God, I have a lead story, and and it was then that I was like, I don't want to do this anymore. You know, I was one foot out the door, and then I was like, uh, I don't like this. And to this day, I don't remember the girl's name. I don't remember any of the details, but I still think about it because it was really this turning point of like, I just don't want to do this anymore. Like I want to go do something else. That you know, maybe if I had stayed in sports, it would have been totally different. But the news side is just-it's tough. It's tough to see all that bad stuff day after day after day and kind of capitalize on it. Yeah, Michael Hingson  25:34 I-I'm amazed at some of the reporters that that I watch and and just listen to how they report the news, and now there's always it seems in our country a lead story of some sort. But how they do it and how they're able to do it day after day without registering too much emotion is pretty amazing. And I and I hope that their characters just don't become so hardened that they don't feel sympathy, and I and I think they don't. The reporters that I tend to watch, I think, are very human oriented, but and and they they behave appropriately, but at the same time, I'm amazed that they're able to do what they do, and it's got to be so tough. Nicole Pytel  26:24 It is tough. It is tough because sadly, you're kind of seeing the worst of the worst. I mean, you know, that's that's the stuff that that makes the news. And and today, you know, I don't watch local news really at all anymore. But it seems like now it's just kind of the police blotter, and it's like when I hear about all these bad things, you know. It's just, you know, the the storytelling has has kind of fallen out of it quite a bit. Michael Hingson  26:49 I collect old radio shows as a hobby, and I'm very fascinated to listen to the all the old news broadcasts from the 20s, well, the 30s, 40s, and into the 50s mainly. And I've heard some interviews with people who did news back in those days, and and who are somewhat still well, they're still alive or they used to be, and they talk about how news broadcasting has changed over the years, and they don't they don't do the same kind of news that they they used to do where they would report on things. Now they've got different people sort of chattering back and forth, and and they're they sometimes make light of stories and they just do a lot of different things, but they're not reporting the news the way the old reporters used to do. Nicole Pytel  27:36 Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, back in the day, you had you know Walter Cronkite kind of ripping the paper off, you know, or you know they're sitting there smoking a cigarette, giving the news. I mean, you know, stuff like that, and you know, yeah, it's just it's totally different. I think it's become so sensationalized, and everybody's obsessed with being first. I think, I mean, you always want to be first, but I I think people are obsessed with being first, even if they don't always get it right. Yeah, and that's Michael Hingson  28:08 happened a lot. It Nicole Pytel  28:09 happens a lot, and and also it's like who can be the most sensational, who can make the biggest splash, and you know it just I don't know. It's it has it's changed so much. Yeah. Michael Hingson  28:25 Well, so now, but but again, well, not now. But then you went into contact mark content marketing. Do you feel that you knew that business as you were going into it, or or did you have a lot to learn? And how did you do it? Because for a while, it was just you doing everything? Nicole Pytel  28:41 Yeah, it was it was me doing literally everything. And did I know about content marketing? No, I didn't. I knew how to write, so I knew I could do copywriting. And I said, okay, well, I'll I'll figure out the marketing part. And it took a lot of courses. I learned about SEO. I learned about email marketing. I learned about inbound marketing. You know, I just took every course that I could and kind of just built the plane as I flew it. And you know, because yeah, when you start your own business and you're all by yourself, there's no there's no senior person to go ask. You're the person, and you've got to figure it out, and you know, I like to say the money train doesn't doesn't just magically show up every two weeks. You know, you've got to you've got to work and you've got to earn it. And so, when you've got your own business, you know, that's just it's a lot of pressure. And so, yeah, I just I just went and and learned as I went and learned a lot quickly. And you know, would would I tell everybody to go do that? No, but for me it was like, well, if I can do that, I can I can probably do anything. I mean, shoot, I kept a a roof over my head and food food on the table for for eight years with my. Business, so that's that's something that a lot of people can't say. Michael Hingson  30:03 Did you make any kind of mistake at the beginning, or as you were starting and running this business, that you're very grateful today that you made? Nicole Pytel  30:11 Oh, I I made plenty of mistakes. Oh my goodness! And of course, you're going to make mistakes. You're you're just learning. You're just drinking from the fire hose and just hanging onto the bowl, you know, and I think there was a there was a couple of mistakes I made. I think probably the biggest was not shutting off, you know. And I had come from news where at 10 o'clock the news started, at 1030 the show was over. You were done for the day. Nothing carried over to the next day. You came into work the next day. You started over, and it was really hard to have work that dragged on for days or weeks at a time. And you know, it was hard to shut off, especially when it's your own business. It's like, oh, let me just reply to this one email, or let me check this one thing, or let me go do this one thing over here. And and when I started my own business, you know, I was working, I was working out of the kitchen. So you know, you go to sit down and relax on the couch at night, and and your computer's you know four feet away in the kitchen. So oh, I'll I'll just go check this one thing, and I never was shutting off, and you burn out that way. You really, you really do. And I'm glad I learned that lesson. And I'm not saying I've never repeated that lesson because I've definitely, you know, it's it's a very acquired skill to be able to just turn your brain off and and go focus on something else. But I'm glad I made that mistake because it really showed me, like, you don't have to be on 24/7 even to run your own business, you know, like, and you have to stop. And so, what I've done ever since then, ever since I was able to afford, you know, a two-bedroom apartment or whatever, even my house now. I've always had an office so that you know I go, I do my work, and then at the end of the day, I shut off the computer and I leave that room, and I don't come back until the next day. Where it's like you know, like if you go to a traditional office, you get up at 5o'clock, you walk out, you're back at 9o'clock the next morning, like I've worked really hard to do that at home to really avoid that whole always on kind of mentality because you've just got to kind of stop, you know. Michael Hingson  32:34 Yeah, I my wife passed away in November of 2022, and she was more of a late riser, and I was more of a morning person, but we compromise pretty well. But since she has passed, I tend to get up pretty early because I can eat breakfast and then come in and spend time before anything else happens, going through emails and doing some things. But I don't have to rush doing it, and that helps. But then, then then the the other things happen in the course of the day. But I I know what you're saying, and I work pretty hard at shutting things down by around 5o'clock. Of course, I also have to do that because I have two creatures who say it's five here, not somewhere else, and we better get our food. Yeah. Yep. So they help, but I hear what you're saying, and it and it is a it is a discipline. Working at home and working for yourself is a is a discipline that a lot of people Nicole Pytel  33:33 oh yeah Michael Hingson  33:34 could learn and don't or just don't have the skills to do. But it is, I think, a very doable thing, and I enjoy it. And I usually have I usually have television as well. I have television or something on in the background, although I don't listen to much of it. It's just background noise, but it's there and it helps. Nicole Pytel  33:53 Yeah, yeah. There's something about silence. I've always got to have you know some music on or something. It's like the silence gets a little deafening when you're at home working, it's it's it's funny that way. Michael Hingson  34:03 I do some stuff on the weekends, and when I when I do catching up on letters and things like that on the weekends, I typically don't turn anything on. I just focus and get it done, and then I go off and read and do other things. So it works out. But I but I hear what you're saying, and I think it's an important lesson to learn that you've got to learn. You've got to find a way to recognize that that it is important to turn off. And if you don't, you're going to drive yourself crazy. Nicole Pytel  34:30 You will. And and you know now that we've got you know email on our phones and Slack on our phones and LinkedIn on our phones, it's really easy to sit on the couch at night after dinner and just let me check my email this one more time, or or let me reply to this Slack message, and you just gotta stop because you will burn out, and and then you know you're you're of no use to anybody, most of all yourself, you know. And I think that Michael Hingson  34:57 oh, go ahead. Nicole Pytel  34:58 I was just gonna say I think it. I think it's a lesson that a lot of people struggle with, you know, because everything is just this on-demand one tap of your phone. You can just be back at work 24 hours a day, and I think you have to learn that I don't have to be on 24-seven to be successful. Think that's the thing you've got to learn. Michael Hingson  35:20 Do you think you've experienced burnout along the way? Nicole Pytel  35:23 Oh yeah, absolutely, absolutely. You know, I, I, you know, one of my bad habits is, you know, I'll kind of like put myself last, and I've learned that, you know, oh, it's really easy to, you know, oh, I won't go for a run this morning because I've got you know this work thing that I've got to do, and you know you've got to kind of treat yourself as a non-negotiable as well. You know, not that you get to do the run every morning. There's some mornings when you really can't, but if you look at the run as you know something of that's you taking care of yourself, and something that that is pretty non-negotiable, and it needs to be part of the schedule. You're you're more likely to to stick with it and not push it off to the side. Because yeah, I'm guilty of that. You know, you you push things off to the side. You're eating at your desk. You're passing up on this, or oh, I'm not going to go out to dinner tonight because I'm going to sit here and catch up on stuff, and and you burn out, you know, and it's exhausting. Michael Hingson  36:28 Yeah, yeah, you gotta gotta learn to keep things in perspective, and you're right. Yeah, yourself is is an important part of of what you do, and you have to be able to take care of yourself along the way as well, Speaker 1  36:42 yeah. Michael Hingson  36:42 Well, you had your own company for almost 10 years, and then you decided to go back to work for someone else. What what caused that to happen? Nicole Pytel  36:50 Yeah, so it was a couple of things. You know, one was you know when you own your own business, and and Michael, you understand this. You're you're the everything. You're you're the you're the president. You're the head of marketing. You're the head of sales. You're the head of operations. You're doing the taxes. You're you're doing all the things, and you're not necessarily good at all the things, and you don't necessarily enjoy all the things. You know, and so there was kind of two reasons. So I wanted to really focus on what I was good at, which was the content marketing part. You know, I didn't want to have to fill out quarterly reports for the state or you know things like that. All the admin work that goes in into running your own business, and so I said, okay, I want to be able to do what I do best, and I want to be able to work with clients that are bigger than I can get myself. And so I was really, really lucky to land at an agency. I worked remotely, but the agency was was based in Silicon Valley, and you know our our biggest client was Google, and you know for clients it doesn't get any bigger than that so you know I got to just focus on the content marketing part and work with with companies and and people that I never would have been exposed to if I had stuck with my own business you know no matter what I was never going to break into Silicon Valley from from my apartment in Florida, so you know it was the right decision. It really was, and and in job interviews, people asked me, "Well, you're giving up being your own boss? And it's like I've got very specific reasons for doing that. It was just time, you know. Michael Hingson  38:35 Do you feel like in any way it was a step backwards going to work for somebody rather than being the boss? Nicole Pytel  38:42 No, I don't think so. You know, because I've that eight years that I had in my own business, I got I I've got that under my belt, and you know, no one can take that experience away. You know, it is it is what it is. I learned a lot of lessons. I learned a lot of lessons the hard way too, and it was a great springboard. But I like being able to focus on what I'm best at, and you know the stuff that I've been able to do since then. I wouldn't have had those opportunities if I had just kind of kept with my own business. So I didn't see it as a step back at all because I had very specific reasons for making the move. Michael Hingson  39:20 Yeah, and you know I respect that, and and went through the same sort of thing. I owned my own company for four years back in the mid 1980s because I wasn't able to find a job at the time. People just wouldn't hire blind people, so I started my own company, and then eventually decided to go back into the workforce. And my wife and I worked out a a plan for that, and I created a cover letter that actually impressed some people, and I got a job out of it. But by the same token, I wasn't at all regretful about having to stop doing what I was doing and go back to work for someone else, partly because some of those very pressures that. We're talking about went away, and partly because, as you said, it was time, and I knew it, so we did. Nicole Pytel  40:07 Yeah, yeah. You've got to you've got to go with your gut and stuff like that. You know, like if if your gut is telling you something, or if you're like, I think I'd be a little bit happier doing something else, or if I didn't have to do this part of it, you know, go for Michael Hingson  40:24 it. Well, so there were times that, as you describe it, you would go into a role with no map. You were the only and the first content marketing hire, and you did a lot of stuff with Google Cloud marketing and and so on. What's the difference? I guess the best way to put it. What's the difference between, well, yeah, what's the difference between confidence and just hiding fear? That's probably the good basic question. Nicole Pytel  40:51 Yeah, yeah, they're probably kind of on the same plane, but they project Michael Hingson  41:00 differently. Nicole Pytel  41:01 They project very differently. They they project very differently. So so yes, you know, I created my own business, and then two of the agencies I've worked at, I was the first you know full time content hire. Built the content marketing practice. It was like building a business within a business, and and all the things that go along with that, I just didn't have to do the taxes, and which is a good thing. Yeah, it's a great thing. And then at the same time, yeah, I was I was embedded with with Google Cloud's marketing organization, and and so I think confidence is you know you can do it. Like deep down, you're like I know my stuff, I can do the work, I can do this, and then of course there's the fear of, oh my god! Like Google, like I'm gonna have a Google email address. I'm gonna have you know a title at Google and a supervisor at Google. Like, oh my god! Like, and then of course you know the the fear comes in. The imposter syndrome kind of comes in. Like me, me, really? And I think it's kind of like jumping into a really cold pool. You're scared, but you just gotta do it and kind of not fake it till you make it, but just dive in and trust in the confidence side. You know, there's like it's like the devil and the angel on your shoulder. One is your confidence. That's the angel, and the devil is the fear. And just listen to that confident part, and eventually, I feel like the fear gets drowned out. Now, does the imposter system ever imposter syndrome ever totally go away? Of course not. Of course not. We all have days where you're like, why am I here? Why is anybody listening to me? Why does anybody think I'm smart? We all have those days, but you know, eventually, you know, if you've got that confidence in yourself, it will win out. Michael Hingson  42:52 Yeah, and and it is something that we all have to deal with. But I think we can. I think if we truly understand ourselves and we listen to our inner voice. We'll get the guidance and the confidence that we need. I think so many people tend not to be introspective and tend not to go back and listen to the lessons that they could learn from their own inner subconscious, their own inner voice. And the result of that is that they they end up being very clueless, but the fact of the matter is, there's a part of you that monitors every single solitary thing that you do, and it's ready to give you the information that you need if you'll but take the time to learn to listen to it. And most people just don't do that. But the fact is, we should take that time because we'll get better results than we would ever get any other way. Nicole Pytel  43:45 It's funny because we'll say things to ourselves that we would never say to somebody else. Like you'd never say it to a friend, but you say it to yourself. It's like, why do we do that? And you know, sometimes I think one of the most important questions I've ever asked myself is why not you? You know, you want to go be a sports journalist in Texas? Why not you? Why can't you do that? You want to own your own business? Why not you? People do that all the time. Why? Why can't you do it? And I think if you if you're really honest with yourself, and you say, "Well, why not you? And you force yourself to kind of have this conversation with yourself and give an answer. A lot of times, you can't think of Michael Hingson  44:33 one, and you create excuses. Nicole Pytel  44:37 You do, which Michael Hingson  44:38 really are are not helping, and they're not healthy, but you do it anyway. And I understand the concept of imposter syndrome, but you ultimately have control over that. Nicole Pytel  44:50 You do, and I think that's the thing. It's you know I think anxiety gets the best of us a lot of the time, and and you've got to be like, okay, well, what can I control? What is totally out of my control? I actually heard somebody say today, you know, when anxiety creeps in and you have a thought, "Oh my God, what if X Y Z happens? You say to yourself, "So what if it does? Like, so what? Like, can you control it? Can you fix it? And if not, then then you shouldn't just give it airtime in your brain, you know. We Michael Hingson  45:23 spend so much time worrying about everything over which we don't have control, and we don't really learn the about the things over which we truly have control and should focus our time on, which is which is such an issue because the reality is over 95% of the things that we worry about and what if about all the time are things over which we have no control. I hear a lot of people say I don't watch the news because I just get angry at all that. Well, I like to watch the news because I love information, but I can do that generally without getting angry. Now, sometimes I will, I will yell at somebody on the the TV because they say dumb things. There are people who have learned how to do that, but I also don't spend a lot of time at it, and I also know that I'm not going to hurt them, even if they hear me. So the Michael Hingson  46:16 the bottom line is that I I work at not doing that, but I still want to get the information as to what's going on, so I do. Nicole Pytel  46:24 Yeah, and that's you. I want to know, and what can I control my reaction to it? I'm not going to get angry unless somebody says something really, really stupid, and and then you know it comes out. But yeah, it's it. That's a great example. I want to know what's happening, and I'm going to control my reaction to it, and a lot of times that's all we can control is our reaction to things. Michael Hingson  46:45 But we don't, which is really and we don't. We don't, and we should. Nicole Pytel  46:49 Yep. Michael Hingson  46:50 Well, speaking of reactions, earlier this year you got laid off from your VP role. I'm I'm curious, what did that do to how you see your own professional identity and and and so on, or did you know it was coming, or anything like that? Nicole Pytel  47:05 There, there were some rumblings right before it happened that it was coming, and you know I'm one of sadly very very many people, you know, 1000s, 10s of 1000s, maybe even hundreds of 1000s of people in this position, and and it's it's tough because you're not your job, but when you do something 40 hours a week and and you get up every day and that's what you do, it becomes part of who you are. It's like that's what I do, and then when that's gone, it's just like, well, now like am I still am I still useful? Like, am I still smart? You know, and and all these things go go through your mind, and you learn a lot about yourself when that happens. You know, talking about hey, all I can control is how I react to it. You know, Lord knows. You know, when you get laid off, like there's a a million what ifs running through your brain, and and all you can do is just keep putting one foot in front of the other, and and controlling how you react to it. But it absolutely, you know, it definitely shakes your confidence, and you know, it's it's it's a very weird feeling, you know that first Monday when you don't go to work. It's like, oh my God, the rest of the world went back to work, and and I didn't, and it's very jarring. You know, especially when you're when you're as old a fossil as me and you've been working for so long, it's like now you're not. You know, I've been I've been very very lucky to take on you know some freelance work and stuff like that, and and you know it's given me an opportunity to really catch up on a lot of the things that I wanted to learn and try and do when I was working full time and didn't really have the time. So from that perspective, it's been really good. But it it it'll knock you down for a minute, and it's up to you to kind of pick yourself back up, and that's where you kind of learn a lot about yourself as to how how you react to that. Michael Hingson  49:08 Yeah, and you have to again. It's a matter of choice, and you have to decide what what you want to do. Well, so you got laid off. Did you sleep late that first Monday? Nicole Pytel  49:19 I didn't. You know what I did. You know what I did. I I knew I had to give myself something to do, so I got up early on that first Monday and I went and got the oil changed in my car. I was like, I'm gonna go out and be productive. You know, could I have laid in bed all day and just kind of wallowed in self. Yeah, that doesn't help. Yeah, but that's not helpful. So I was like, "I'm going to go get that oil change I've been putting off for like two months. And you got to go Michael Hingson  49:49 in earlier than you otherwise would have, and probably got it done sooner. Nicole Pytel  49:53 There you go. There you go. Sometimes it just works out. Michael Hingson  49:57 And you probably had two little fur creatures who. We're very glad to see you continuing to support their habits. Nicole Pytel  50:04 Yes, yes, they my little fur divas. Yes, they're kind of like you know now you know Minnie Minnie's worked with me her whole life. She just turned 14. I've had her since she was 11 months old, and and I've I've worked at home her whole life, and so she she comes to the office with me every single day with her little memory foam, and and and and she gets her decompression time too. You know, she knows at 5o'clock when I take her memory foam bed back into the bedroom. Like, all right, I'm done working for the day. I'm good. But you know, at first she was like, "Why aren't we working, mom? And then you know, we got some freelance work and got back in the office, and I could tell she was like, "Okay, we're getting back to normal. Because at first they were both like, "What are we doing? Aren't you supposed to be working? Like, what's happening? But as long as they've got all their treats and all their toys and and and you know all their things, they're good. Michael Hingson  50:58 Didn't you tell them that was time for them to go get a job? Nicole Pytel  51:01 Oh yeah, absolutely. Michael Hingson  51:03 And how'd that work for you? Absolutely. Nicole Pytel  51:04 No, it didn't work out. They were like, "We don't do that. Like, I don't think you understand, Mom. Yeah, this is not how this works. Yeah, Michael Hingson  51:11 yeah. Well, so one of the things I think that's interesting, we're and we're all facing it to one degree or another, is the whole concept of of AI, a lot of people are afraid that AI is coming for their jobs, and I can make some comments, and I will about that. But you've chosen to face that fear and confront it. So I guess the real question is, why do you think that was the right call, and what do you think about this whole business of AI? Nicole Pytel  51:39 AI is really something, and so so I I've seen both sides of it. As a content marketer, you know we were supposed to become extinct because AI could just write everything. And my point is, is like, can AI create content? Sure, but it doesn't know what to create, and that's where the human comes in. It like the human has to come up with the strategy, and you know I remember the first time trying out ChatGPT and having it write stuff, and it wasn't very good, and and you know obviously things have gotten much much better in in the past 334 years, but you know it just became obvious that that this is a thing, and I guess you know, as a benefit, so many of of my clients were AI companies in some way, shape, or form, and it's like this is happening, and you have got to learn how to deal with it. And at least in my job, it can it can make me better at my job because it can speed things up. It can kind of eliminate some redundancies, you know. And is it ever going to replace me? No, because I'm the human with the judgment, and I understand, you know, the business goals of of what we're trying to do and how we hit the revenue goals and who the audience is and what they care about and all of those things, but I think one of the the silver linings of of getting laid off was you know I've I've had a you know a chunk of time to really dive in and get my hands dirty with AI like the things that I was like, oh, if I could have it do this, this, and this, that'd be really cool. And then go in and build it and see, hey, can I actually build this and go into Claude Code and see if if I really can do that, you know? And and it's given me a chance to really do that and go, okay, well, when I when I get another job, this is how I'm going to use AI on day one. I'm going to create, you know, this list of things, and here's why. Here's the order I'm going to do them in, and here's where I'm going to use AI to make it better. But more importantly, here's kind of the framework for how humans and AI should work together in content marketing, because there's so many people out there that are like, "Hey, ChatGPT, go write my website for me, and then they wonder why it's not very good or or why it sounds the same as as their competitors. You know, there's studies out there that say you know buyers think that these companies all sound the same, and you know AI is a big reason for that. So if you can really figure out how humans and AI work together, I think that's that's the piece, you know. And and there at the beginning there were a lot of content marketing kind of purists out there that were like, I will never use this. I'm gonna write everything myself. I'm gonna do everything from scratch, and I was just like, "That's like saying, you know, when cars came out, like I'm not, I'm not riding a horse. I'm not getting a car. I'm taking my horse and buggy to work. You know, I mean, it's the same thing. Like things evolve, and and you know, take advantage of it. Michael Hingson  54:56 Well, the reality is that AI is here. And I think you're right. What we need to do is to learn how to use it. I heard a friend comment a couple months ago that was talking to his boss about AI, and his boss said, "I will never fire you and replace you with AI. I won't do that, he said. "I might fire you if you don't learn how to use AI. Nicole Pytel  55:26 Yes, and Michael Hingson  55:26 I think that's absolutely true. I I use AI when I write because it gives me ideas, but ultimately I have to still be the one to create them, and I am not convinced that we're going to see AI in anywhere in the near future, develop the true human spirit and learn how to do the things that we do, Nicole Pytel  55:48 right? Michael Hingson  55:50 And so I think it's important that we learn how to use AI, and we I get a lot of great ideas from it, and so I go into what I write, and that's great because it's got a lot more information and experience than I do. So I don't mind doing that, and I'll be glad to take the ideas. The first time I heard anybody talking about AI was in a Christmas party with relatives, and somebody was complaining because teachers were grousing about the fact that kids were just letting AI write their papers, Nicole Pytel  56:22 yeah. Michael Hingson  56:22 And I said, why not let AI write the papers? You're missing a golden opportunity, and the golden opportunity. And I've said this before on Unstoppable Mindset, but the golden opportunity is the teacher should let students, if they want to use AI to write their papers, let them use AI to write their papers. But then, after you collect the papers, take a period, call each student to the front of the class, and say, "Now defend your position. You're going to find out who really knows what they're talking about and who doesn't. Nicole Pytel  56:50 Yep. Michael Hingson  56:51 What a great opportunity! Nicole Pytel  56:53 That's one way to do it for sure. And my guess is most of them would have no idea. Yeah. Michael Hingson  57:00 How was your view of a special of a professional career change since you started years ago, or has it? Nicole Pytel  57:08 Yeah, many, many, many moons ago. Many Michael Hingson  57:11 moons. Nicole Pytel  57:12 You know, I think when when you first start out in your career, and tell me, Michael, if you agree with this, you know, you just want to get going. It's like I'm a grown up now. I get to do all these grown up things and all the things that I learned about in school. I'm gonna run off and do them, and I want to do as much as I can, as fast as I can, and and climb the ladder and do all the things. And then, you know, that's still important, obviously. But I think it's more about, you know, am I doing something that I take? I truly, truly take pride in something that I believe in. You know, like you know, I could never go work for a company and and do marketing if if I thought the product was boring. You know, I just couldn't. I I don't really care what title you give me, or you know how much money you want to pay me. It's like if it's going to be boring, I don't, I don't want to do it. So I think part of it is, you know, are are you getting satisfaction out of what you're doing? Michael Hingson  58:13 Also, we need to recognize and understand that sometimes life gets in the way, and you start out with a great plan. This is what I'm going to do, and something happens to change it. And the reality is, again, it's of course how you approach that change. But that change might very well be for the best. I know that's happened to me several times, and I have learned that life may happen, things may happen, but I'm gonna not. I don't. I didn't have control over the change necessarily happening. So it's a question more about how I decide to deal with it and what I'm going to do. And I think that's what's really so important to be able to do. And so I find that it's so important to let life do what life is going to do, and you evaluate which way you want to go, but truly evaluate it. Don't don't just react. Sit back and think. You may decide to keep on doing what you're doing, and you're given another opportunity. And of course, for me, the most dramatic example of that is after September 11th, people started calling and saying, "Gee, would you come and talk to us and tell us what we ought to know about September 11th and talk to us about leadership and so on. We saw your name in the media and we want to hear from you and we'll pay you. And of course, you'll pay me. That was a great start. But but what happened was that so many of those happened that my wife and I at the by the beginning of 2002 realized that this was an incredible opportunity. It would take work, but it was an incredible opportunity, and that in reality, as I tell people, selling life and philosophy is a whole lot more rewarding than being a computer hardware sales manager and selling computer hardware. And so I've been doing it ever since, and I've had so many wonderful advances. And I've I've met so many people, learned so many things, and I spend the time working on learning wherever I go and wherever I speak, and so I can't complain at all about what what caused my life to change. Nicole Pytel  1:00:15 Yeah, I mean everything happens for a reason. I really do believe that, and and you may not know what that reason is right away, but yeah, I mean, look at you. I I I can't even imagine having been there on September 11th. It was it was jaw dropping enough to to watch it on TV, and and I'm sure there was a lot that went through your mind and and went through your mind during and right after. And but now look at I mean all the people that that you've gotten to inspire and and educate and motivate and and people who have really learned something and you never would have had that platform. It's it's it's really something. Michael Hingson  1:00:56 Yeah, and and it's and and if you're given a choice between two things that both really sound great, you make a choice, and then you live with the choice you made. Again, don't don't what if the things over which you don't have control, Nicole Pytel  1:01:13 right? Exactly. Michael Hingson  1:01:15 Well, if someone is in a position today where they're listening and they're standing kind of in the same place you were when you decided to go leave television, so on, and they're certain that they should be going off and doing something different, but they're terrified to admit it. What would you say is the one thing that you should tell them? Nicole Pytel  1:01:36 I would say if your gut is telling you to do something, you need to listen to it, and I would say, ask yourself why not me? Why can't I go do this now? If you want to run off and be an

Yesterday's Sports is part of the Sports History Network - The Headquarters For Sports Yesteryear.YESTERDAY'S SPORTS HOME PAGEEPISODE SUMMARYIn this episode of Yesterday's Sports, Mark and Dave travel back to the gritty, golden era of 1970s heavyweight boxing to revisit one of the most technical and debated rivalries in the sport: the Ali-Norton trilogy. Mark sits down with fellow sports historian Dave DePaolo to break down how Ken Norton, a former Marine and 5-to-1 underdog, went from a Joe Frazier sparring partner to the "Jaw Breaker" who shocked the world in San Diego.From the nostalgic intro of Howard Cosell on Wide World of Sports to the shocking visual of Ali fighting through a broken jaw, they explore why this first clash set the stage for a three-year chess match that "The Greatest" never truly mastered.The conversation shifts to the intense 1973 rematch at the Los Angeles Forum and the final 15-round war at Yankee Stadium in 1976. They dive deep into Norton's unorthodox "cross-arm" defense and his peculiar habit of dragging his back foot—a style so puzzling that Ali admitted years later he couldn't figure it out.They analyze the "judge-friendly" tactics Ali used to sway the scorecards, including his late-round flurries and psychological warfare, and debate whether the pro-Ali crowds and his legendary status influenced decisions that many historians still believe belonged to Norton.Finally, they immerse you in the atmosphere of 1976 New York, a time when "The Bronx was Burning" and Yankee Stadium had just reopened its doors to host this historical rubber match. They discuss the "city issues" that almost halted the fight, the chaos in the aisles, and the legendary figures from Angelo Dundee to Chick Hearn who colored the broadcast.Whether you remember watching these fights live on a Saturday afternoon or are hearing the legends for the first time, this episode is a nostalgic journey into the heart of boxing's most enduring stylistic quagmire.You can read the full blog post here.YESTERDAY'S SPORTS BACKGROUNDHost Mark Morthier grew up in New Jersey just across the river from New York City during the 1970s, a great time for sports in the area. He relives great moments from this time and beyond, focusing on football, baseball, basketball, and boxing. You may even see a little Olympic Weightlifting in the mix, as Mark competed for eight years. See Mark's book below.No Nonsense, Old School Weight Training: A Guide For People With Limited TimeRunning Wild: (Growing Up In The 1970s)

Mark Thompson joins Conway for a wide-ranging and surprisingly personal hour that starts with health, aging, and the anxiety of worrying about dying. The conversation takes a sharp turn into classic Conway absurdity as Tim and Mark debate whether they’d buy property in Greenland if the U.S. ever took it over — and reveal they once nearly bought a Dunkin’ Donuts franchise before choosing a Vegas trip instead. Things get very real when Conway shares that he took a serious fall earlier in the day, hit his head, and thought he broke his ankle. To lighten the moment, Tim turns it into a game — taking ten callers and offering $100 to anyone who can correctly guess what he was doing when he fell. Conway then reveals the full story: he was hanging clothes on a clothesline to save electricity when things went wrong. The discussion deepens with sobering examples of famous falls, including Chick Hearn’s fatal head injury and Bob Saget’s tragic accident, underscoring how quickly a simple fall can turn serious. The hour wraps with a relatable and hilarious rant about people who owe you money — why it’s awkward, why it never ends well, and how it feels straight out of an SNL sketch. Dark humor, real life scares, and classic Conway chaos collide in one unforgettable hour.

What if your website is quietly turning people away without you ever knowing it? In this episode of Unstoppable Mindset, Michael Hingson talks with Lori Osbourne, a branding strategist and web accessibility advocate whose personal health journey reshaped how she helps businesses show up online. Lori shares how unclear messaging, weak branding, and inaccessible websites block trust, visibility, and growth. Together, they unpack why accessibility is not just about compliance, but about inclusion, credibility, and better SEO, and how simple changes like clearer messaging, alt text, contrast, and video captions can transform both user experience and business results. Highlights: 00:01 – Understand why disability is often left out of diversity conversations and why that needs to change 13:56 – Learn how a life-altering health crisis forced a complete reset in career and priorities 27:10 – Discover why a website alone is not enough to establish authority or visibility 34:19 – Learn why unclear messaging is the biggest reason websites fail to convert 44:43 – Understand what website accessibility really means and who it impacts 59:42 – Learn the first step to take if your online presence feels overwhelming About the Guest: Lori Osborne, affectionately known as The Authority Amplifier, is a Brand Strategist, Website Consultant, and the founder of BizBolster Web Solutions. With over 25 years in technology and nearly a decade of experience helping coaches, consultants, authors, and speakers build a profitable online presence, Lori is the powerhouse behind The Authority Platform™, a complete done-for-you system designed to transform overwhelm into opportunity. Her signature branding process, The Authority Blueprint™, helps clients clarify their message, define their visual and verbal identity, and identify what truly sets them apart in their field. She then brings that strategy to life with an authority-building website - strategically crafted on the Duda platform to reflect credibility, connect authentically, and convert consistently - without the headaches of WordPress maintenance or tech confusion. Unlike agencies that offer cookie-cutter sites or developers who disappear after launch, Lori builds long-term relationships by delivering personalized, high-touch service. Through The Authority Platform™, she combines brand clarity, trust-building web design, lead generation funnels, SEO, accessibility, and sales systems into one cohesive, visibility-driving engine. Lori is known for her warmth, resilience, and insightfulness, and for making her clients feel fully seen and heard. If you're ready to stop spinning your wheels with digital tools that don't deliver, and finally create a platform that amplifies your voice, authority, and impact, Lori is your strategic partner. Ways to connect with Lori**:** https://www.bizbolster.com/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/loriaosborne/ https://www.facebook.com/bizbolster https://www.instagram.com/bizbolsterlori Link to Freebie: https://www.bizbolster.com/vip-visibility-audit About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson  00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson  01:17 Well, hello everyone. Welcome to unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. I am your host, Michael Hingson, or you can call me Mike, it's fine, and I gave the full title of the podcast for a very specific reason. Where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet, typically, diversity people never want to include disabilities in what they discuss or what they do. And if you ask the typical diversity people, what's diversity? They'll talk about race, gender, sexual orientation, and they don't deal with disabilities. But the reality is, and they say that disability isn't a real mindset. Well, Balderdash, it is. Just asked the 25% of America's population, according to the CDC, that has a disability, and they'll tell you that disability is a minority. But the reason I bring it all up is today, we get to talk with Lori Osborne, and she is a person who's been very deeply involved in website development, in branding and coaching, and she is very concerned about and likes to try to help deal with the issue of accessibility on websites. So we're going to have a fun time talking about all of that, much less the platform she uses, as opposed to WordPress, and I'm really curious to hear more about that, because I've my website is a WordPress website, but, but, you know, I think there are so many different ways to deal with things today. We'll, we'll have a fun time. But Lori, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're here. Thank you Lori Osbourne  02:56 so much for having me. Mike, I love being here. Cannot wait to talk. Michael Hingson  03:01 Well, let's do it. Why don't we start by you telling us kind about the early Laurie growing up and all that stuff, and kind of how you got started. Okay, start at the beginning. Lori Osbourne  03:14 At the beginning. All right. I was born in San Diego. More your neck of the woods. San Diego Naval Hospital, but only got to live in California for two years, which I've always been disappointed about. My my family had my grandfather built a home in La Jolla. So you know, I was I've always been jealous of how my mom got to grow up, but I only got to spend two years there and then I got moved to Norman, Oklahoma, home of the Sooners, never watched football, never went to one football game my entire life. Michael Hingson  03:51 I've never been to a professional or college football game. My wife had, but I never got to go to a football game. I think it'd be kind of fun to do once, as long as I could still pick it up on the radio and know what's going on. Lori Osbourne  04:03 There you go. Yeah, I had zero interest in football until I met my current husband in 2011 and he doesn't miss a professional football game, an NFL game. So I have, I have come to embrace it and enjoy the Pittsburgh Steelers and the Kansas City Chiefs. So there you go. Michael Hingson  04:24 So you're in Florida and you don't root for a Florida team, huh? Lori Osbourne  04:29 I don't, we won't hold it again, you know. Well, you know, I'm one of those. So I moved from Oklahoma to Colorado to Denver area. So I was a Broncos fan when I lived in Colorado, but that was the days of, oh my gosh. Now my mind is going to completely go blank. This is so embarrassing. The the Great, the greatest Broncos player who is now a general manager, John, oh my gosh. Can think of a it'll come to me. But anyway, he, you know, we. Were actually like, yes, thank you. Thank you very much. Elway. Yes, I was a guest. So we were actually, like, winning Super Bowls when I first moved there, so, you know, and then it went, kind of went. Then I became a Peyton Manning fan, and my husband's from Pennsylvania, and he's like, you can't just change your mind about who you support every time we move. And I'm like, but I can't, yeah, why not? So when we moved to Florida, I Michael Hingson  05:26 the Jaguars, jaguars, yeah, yeah, they Lori Osbourne  05:29 just haven't been a great team. And I I watched Mahoney, Mahoney play for Kansas City, and I just fell in love with how he plays and just his style and his leadership, and I just became a Kansas City fan, just because I love watching him. And last season was a little disappointing because he didn't throw as much, but, but, you know, he's, he's amazing, so that's that's my reasoning. Michael Hingson  06:03 So So you you didn't fall in love with Travis Kelsey and try to go steal him away from Taylor Swift before things got serious? Lori Osbourne  06:12 No, no, I was already in love with my current husband. Michael Hingson  06:15 So see, tell him that there are some things and some loves that do transcend location. Lori Osbourne  06:23 There you go. Yes, absolutely. Well, you know, he's so obsessed with football that we I actually included in our marriage vows that I would support him through his two fantasy football teams and a lifetime of football in my future, because I knew I was marrying football when I married him. Michael Hingson  06:46 One of the things that spoils me about sports out here, and it's not so much anymore, but it used to be the case is, I think that here in especially southern California, we had the best sports announcers in the business. We had Vin Scully doing baseball, and I think that it'll be a long, long time before anyone comes up to the caliber of Vince Scully. And there, there are things that they do now that that really messed that up. But Vinnie was a was was the best. We had Dick Enberg, who did football and and other people. And Chick Hearn did basketball. Chick hurr had talked so fast that I don't know how he was able to do it, but I learned how to listen fast because I grew up listening to Chick Hearn new basketball. I love it. So, so I got spoiled on sports, listening to those announcers. I keep up with football from a news standpoint, especially when it gets close to the Super Bowl, so I can decide who I'm going to if anybody for for in the Super Bowl when they have it. Yeah, I do kind of like the Rams, because I live out here and I've always kind of liked them, although I was mad at them when they moved to St Louis for a while, but, but still, they're the Rams. I mean, we'll see what they do this year. I think they've got a good coach, but I by no means am a football expert or anything like that. I keep up though. Lori Osbourne  08:08 Me neither. I, yeah, I kind of joke, you know, my husband will watch like, you know, eight games at once, the red zone or the whatever, and it's flipping around. And I just can't, so I just joke I'm a fourth quarter watcher. On Sunday nights, Monday nights, I'll watch the fourth quarter and because that's where you know if it's gonna happen, that's where it's gonna happen if it's gonna be worth watching. Michael Hingson  08:30 Yeah, well, I'll be interested to see what happens tomorrow, because the Chargers are playing the chiefs in Brazil. Lori Osbourne  08:41 Yes, and I don't, I don't even know if we're going to get to watch it, because, you know, the NFL spread out across all these different platforms now, and if you don't have the platform, you're out of luck. Michael Hingson  08:52 I think it's going to be on TV. It'll be watchable, but it starts at 530 Pacific Time, and I don't quite understand that. If they're doing it live, that would mean it's going to start at nine. Start at 930 in the evening in San Paulo. So I don't know how all that's going to work. We'll see. Lori Osbourne  09:07 Yeah, yeah, we shall see. Yeah, we're I don't know if we're watching tomorrow nights, but my husband's definitely watching tonight, for sure. Well, I Michael Hingson  09:15 don't think there are more games on tomorrow other than that one, so maybe he will. And maybe you actually get to focus and just see one game, Lori Osbourne  09:24 right, right? That's, that's, that's the nice part about the non Sunday games. Usually it's just, Michael Hingson  09:31 well, so you, so you grew up and you, you only lived in California for two years, and then where did you go? Lori Osbourne  09:40 I lived in Norman, that's right, until I was 29 I actually found my birth father when I was 23 and moved to Colorado to get to know him and his family. Michael Hingson  09:55 So you were a diamond. Lori Osbourne  10:00 Not really. I just, he was just never part of my life. Your mom married someone else, yeah, okay, yeah. I always had. My mom just didn't have my dad. And it's, you know, it's been an interesting experience, because, you know, being in my 20s when I met him, and my mom and I were opposite growing up, and I never understood my personality, because she was quiet and passive and wanted to work in the same job her entire life, and I was the opposite. I was vivacious and loud and aggressive and always wanted to be self employed. Then I met my dad and went, Oh, it explained it all, I'm just like him. It's crazy how the you know the genes work for sure, Michael Hingson  10:51 but you got to know him, and the relationship was a good one. Lori Osbourne  10:55 Yeah, yeah, right. We just, he's in Idaho now. We just got back a couple of weeks ago from visiting. I mean, it's been interesting, trying to enter a family, you know, in your 20s is is bizarre. I kind of, I kind of equate it to being an in law, like, I'm not quite all the way in, because I, you know, I didn't grow up with these people. They don't know me. But, yeah, it's been interesting. So where in Idaho, near Coeur d'Alene Sand Point near Michael Hingson  11:25 standpoint, I have a brother in law who lives in Ketchum, in Sun Valley, and who is an avid skier, and has been an avid skier basically his whole life. Now the real big question is, of course, where is your father when it comes to football, Lori Osbourne  11:46 my father does not sit still. Okay? That is, that is one way that we are different. He I joke that he'll probably outlive me. I mean, he lives on 14 acres. I think he just, they just sold 40 Acres. But he doesn't. He never sits still. He He's always going, going, going, working on, you know, he had, he had his business, which he sort of still does. But he works on fences or helps with the does something with the horses or the hay or the, you know, it's just it. He works his plan does not I don't think he the TV when we were there was on music the entire time. Yep. Michael Hingson  12:30 So hardly a person who tends to watch football. Well, that's okay. So you, you grew up in Norman? Did you go to college there or in the area? Lori Osbourne  12:43 I went for a year and then couldn't figure out how to keep paying for it. I honestly didn't even realize financial aid was a thing. So I started in the workforce and became a recruiter, technical recruiter, pretty early in my career. I did that for 12 years, and then started my own recruiting business and got my degree during that time. So I got a bachelor's degree in business administration, 4.0 average while working. Proud of that, but I was in my 30s, and then I got cancer right after that, had colon cancer at 36 which I blame an 18 year abusive, horrible marriage, I think really led to that, but it pushed me To get out of that horrible abuse of marriage. And then a few years later, I met my current husband, and I am the happiest I've ever been, Michael Hingson  13:51 but you also were able to, in one way or another, beat the cancer Lori Osbourne  13:58 I was, yes, it was actually stage one colon cancer. Only had surgery so that one, yeah, didn't even have to have chemo or radiation. And actually, what got me into my current business? I was a when I got divorced, I did this is kind of funny to me. I when I got divorced, I decided I no longer wanted to be straight commission, and because I had gotten a job after after the cancer, and now I'm self employed. And so why? I think I wouldn't want to be straight commission, but it's okay to be self employed, but it's a completely different mindset. You know yourself very much a different mindset. But I was in tech. I moved from recruiting into hands on technology. I did project management, software testing, I looked at websites and helped design websites from a business perspective, but I was never, never a coder, never, you know, did the visual design? Nine and in 2015 I we had just moved to the opposite side of Denver. We had just changed, I had just changed jobs, had a brand new home, and then found out I had a brain tumor. Michael Hingson  15:15 Oh, gosh, yeah, you're just an attention getting person. Lori Osbourne  15:19 That's all you. I know. That's it. I just walk around going, yep, that's it. So, yeah. So I, I ended up leaving the job because it was, it was very traumatic. I ended up having two surgeries. They couldn't remove the tumor. It's part of my carotid artery. It's a meningioma. It's benign, but it's part of my carotid artery, and it was causing my left eye to droop, so they went in to get it off the optical nerve and nicked the carotid and caused a brain bleed. And that brain bleed caused that drooping eye to become a half blind eye. So I ended up, for about a year and a half, I had double vision. I also had found out I had a stroke from it, I was having problems with words and forming, you know, the right words. And I had no tolerance for stress for a long time, so there was no way I was going back to project management in the IT world, right? This wasn't so I literally, I spent about a year recovering and just started messing around, going, Okay, well, what can I do with the talents that I have? And I started building a website on Squarespace, and it was called Health Net, like grandma. And it was just talking about my I lost my mother and my grandmother to cancer at 63 both at 63 and then I had gone through what I went through. And I just wanted to share the stories, you know, the what I've learned from a health perspective. And in doing that, went, wow. Why have I not been developing websites the last 20 years? This is what I should be doing. I love this, and I bet other business owners could really use some help doing this. And that's when my business was born. Michael Hingson  17:20 Wow. How did they discover the brain tumor? Lori Osbourne  17:26 It started with me falling asleep at my brand new job desk. Was I could not hold my eyes open. I actually thought it was an adrenal reaction to leaving a super high stress job to a very boring job, but it was not. They did all these tests. They put me on thyroid medication, which helped, and then my left eye started drooping, like literally within weeks together and and it was funny, because they they sent me to an eye doctor, and the eye doctor sent me to an eye surgeon, and they wanted to do surgery on it. And I'm like, don't you want to figure out why this is happening? Like, I don't want you to touch my eye until you know why my eye is drooping. And my doctor thought that was the craziest thing she'd ever heard. So she goes, Well, have we done an MRI yet? And I said, No, so they sent me for an MRI that day. And lo and behold, not only do you have a brain tumor, but you have had a stroke. Okay. Gosh, you know, she did not want to share that news, those news with me. She was very embarrassed. Probably, well, Michael Hingson  18:43 but you need to know, yeah, and clearly you already had demonstrated that you had an analytical mind, and it would be valuable for you to know, because it would help you in dealing with making decisions, or thinking about what decisions to make going forward, right? Yeah, so you did. So you went through the surgeries and all of that, and what, what happened to your your left eye, Lori Osbourne  19:10 it, it's still mostly blind. I have a sliver of vision that I can't control. So if I go to the eye doctor, they try to get me to look at the chart, and I can't focus it on the chart, and I get very frustrated. I blocked it for the first year. Now my eyes are so it's it's developed its own way of working, so I can't even block it anymore without causing worse headaches than I already have. Bad headaches kind of came out of all of this. So I really just live with it. I live with the headaches, and I ignore it as much as I possibly can and and hope it's improved slightly over. The last 10 years, they told me it would never improve. But, you know, our brains are amazing things, and it's it's trying, but it's still not. I just tell them make the left eye prescription the same as the right eye because it makes no difference. Yeah. Michael Hingson  20:17 Well, so with, with with all that you've you've dealt with, with, with this clearly, you figured out a way to go forward, and you've, now, I assume, used all that happened to you, and you've analyzed it in some way or another, that you have made some decisions about what you want to do with your life, which is namely the whole brand development and web development and dealing with accessibility, which is pretty cool. Lori Osbourne  20:51 Yeah, yeah, I am. Once I discovered that passion and the I honestly never realized I had the creative side of me. I knew I had the analytical I knew I had the project management and tech, but once I realized I actually have a very strong creative side, then websites were the way to go. And it's it's really I can be working on a website for four hours straight and feel no pain, and that that alone tells me I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing. I love it that much, and I feel like I'm that talented at it. Michael Hingson  21:30 I think you've made a very interesting observation, and one that I relate to very well, which is working commission is one thing, but working for yourself, which, in some senses, is the same, but it's totally different, and you have to have a different mindset to make it work. Lori Osbourne  21:48 Oh, absolutely, yes. I mean, I'm I'm not selling a product for someone else. I'm selling myself, and I am the product, and I have to live by my my values and my mission and my why, which is completely different than selling services for someone else, for straight commission. Michael Hingson  22:12 I have always told my the people who I hired as sales people to analyze and and think about what they do. And one of the things that I did with every person I ever hired was I would say, tell me what you're going to sell. And literally, all but one person said, Oh, we're going to sell the product. This is the product we're selling. This is what it does. But the best sales guy I ever hired, when I asked that question, Said, the only thing I have to sell is myself and my word, and I need you to back me up when I give my word about something, Michael Hingson  22:50 great answer. It was, it was the actual, it was the answer I was looking for. And I said, well, as long as we communicate, and I know what you're going to say, and that's all about trust, I'm going to back you up. And never had an issue. And in fact, he and I worked very well together, because we figured out how my talents in sales and management could augment and accentuate what he did, so that the two of us could work together. And I think that's that's so important, but you're right. The only thing any really good salesperson has to sell is themselves, and you have to be true to your own attitudes. Yes, yes, which is so Lori Osbourne  23:33 integrity is everything. I mean, if you especially as a small business owner, I mean, and I'm in a very small community, and I this. I only lived here since 2018 and it's kind of been shocking to me how how a small community works. But if you do it right, everybody knows your name. If you do it wrong, everybody knows your name. Yeah, it's you know when, every time I get a call because the chamber has referred me again. I just smile, and I'm like, Okay, I'm doing it right, you know? And it's, to me, it's all about integrity. If you, if you say you're going to do something, do it, and if you can't do it, say you can't do it, say you can't do right, or say I'm going to figure it out. Yeah, you know, I didn't. I charged very little my first few years, and I always my first few years, I told clients, I don't know what I'm doing yet, so I'm not charging you for the time that I'm learning. I'm going to charge you for the time that I'm actually accomplishing something. Michael Hingson  24:30 One of the things I always told every again, every salesperson I ever hired is for at least the first year. You're a student. No matter what you think you know and what you know about sales, when you're working with customers, you're a student, ask them questions, really learn from them, because they want you to be successful, even if you don't think they do. And the reality is that, in general, they do want you to be successful, and the more you encourage them to teach you, the better relationship you're going to develop. Lori Osbourne  24:59 Absolutely. And 100% yes. Michael Hingson  25:02 So how long ago did you end up having the brain tumor? Lori Osbourne  25:07 I was diagnosed in August of 2015 So wow, I'm, I'm at exactly 10 years. 10 years. Yeah, I didn't, oh my gosh. September 22 will be my my first surgery dates. There you go. Wow. Right at 10 years Michael Hingson  25:23 See, I'm glad we we help you remember, Lori Osbourne  25:27 I can't, I can't believe that was, like, not even on my mind. I mean, it was actually September 17. Was the first surgery, that's right, and it's the same day as my dog's birthday. And we were just talking about my dog's birthday yesterday, but I didn't even think about the tumor. So well, it's all good Michael Hingson  25:47 a week from next Wednesday. But you know, you you obviously are doing well, well, so how did your your business in the the way you do things and what you do? How did all that change after the surgery, or had you already started down the road of branding and being a branding coach and website development and accessibility? Lori Osbourne  26:10 No, all of this came as a result of all of it. So it literally just grew with me, as I, you know, transitioned into life again, and being able to function mentally and physically, I would just start, you know, working on a little bit of, you know, a couple of websites. The first website I built was from for a realtor that we worked with. We did three different deals with him in two years. He was this great Scottish guy, great personality, and his website was horrific. And I begged him to let me do it. It was a I think we ended up doing 39 pages total, and just read redid the whole thing. He loved it. A lot of it's still in place 10 years later. But I just, I just started building, and then we moved to the area we are now outside Jacksonville, and I found a local networking group and started meeting people and getting introduced to businesses and just slowly built and learned a little bit at a time, and learned a little bit more. And then it was not actually until last year I realized that I have branding skills and talent that I haven't been promoting. I was using the skills and I was building on brand websites, but I didn't say that, and I didn't recognize it as a separate talent from website development. I kind of thought everybody did that, until I realized that that's not true. So I've been doing it, and a lot of it is just, I the natural, just natural talent for color and almost like designing houses. Like I knew I was really good at designing houses, but I didn't recognize that that translated to websites. And so for last, like, year to 18 months, I've really kind of bought into the brand strategy piece of what I offer. Michael Hingson  28:19 Well, how did you develop this concept of authority platforms, and what is it? Lori Osbourne  28:27 So the authority platform is what I'm calling the full package. It kind of started when I got really frustrated with everybody telling me or everybody's an exaggeration, but so many people saying, Oh, you don't need a website. You just need landing pages. And I would try to educate people that landing pages are not enough, but I couldn't put it in the right words, and when I started really looking at it, going, well, landing pages are great, if you have the visibility to get people to the landing page, and if you've built a relationship in a different way, if it's through speaking or through a book or through other types of promotions, then yes, the landing page can help or maybe replace the website. But where that led me was a website alone is also not enough. We need full visibility. We need to be seen in a lot of different ways to establish our authority as experts. So with the authority platform, I'm looking at the brand and understanding the brand, the website, the lead magnet, the funnels, the search engine optimization, and then helping them also have a good CRM to manage all of this, hooking them up with with good speaking coaches or podcast. Opportunities and just looking at it from a full life cycle of being visible and showing that authority online. Michael Hingson  30:10 And how's that gone over? Lori Osbourne  30:14 It's, I'm still building it honestly, the website's absolutely I'm I'm really working on building the collaboration pieces for the rest of it to truly say, Yes, I have the authority platform, the branding packages that I'm offering and the branding pieces that I'm doing are making a significant difference in the quality of the websites I'm building, because I come out of it with a custom GPT that they can use, and I can use that really establishes that baseline for the brand and the bringing in their values, bringing in their communication style, and bringing in their ideal client and how to speak to that ideal client. So the GPT is built around all of that, which is perfect when we're building the content for the website. So I would say, you know, we're 75% of the way there to having my true authority platform. But I'm still building, you know, authority building websites every day. Michael Hingson  31:20 Well, I gather that you don't tend to like to use WordPress. You use Duda as a platform builder and so on. Tell me, I'm curious why and what, and I don't have any any disagreement or or really knowledge to talk intelligently about it. But tell me why you use Duda and what, what it brings. Lori Osbourne  31:44 So my my challenges with WordPress started with my first client in Florida. They there was a nonprofit. They had no idea what they were doing, and I'm like, I I'm techie. I can go in, I can figure it out, and I could not figure out WordPress, and I got very frustrated with it going, how in the world does anybody else do this? So I kind of stayed away from it for a little while, and I was building on Squarespace for a time, and then I discovered Duda. I consider Duda to be the best of Wix and Squarespace. It's very similar. But the things I don't like about Wix, I don't like about Squarespace, Duda has resolved. It's also very customer oriented and SEO oriented and accessibility oriented. So there's a lot of advantages to the platform. The reason I don't support WordPress is I've had too many, too many people come to me with broken websites. Too many WordPress people do not educate their clients that that you have to update the plugins, and they don't. They just leave them and don't offer to do that for them, and it's it's an unnecessary addition that I don't think most people need for their website. There's plenty of things that we can do and do to that we can do exactly like WordPress without the headaches of that extra tech and plugins breaking and security breaking because the plugins are breaking, and it's it just it's too unnecessary, in my opinion. I tried to support WordPress for about a year and a half, and I found that I was not helping my Duda clients because the WordPress was always so much high maintenance. And those were the websites that were going down, and those are the websites that were having issues where my due to clients, their websites were never down, they never had issues. Michael Hingson  33:51 But don't need, but don't you, from time to time need to provide any kind of updates to Duda doesn't. Aren't there as the as the whole website evolves, doesn't, don't you need to find ways to evolve what they are and what they do Lori Osbourne  34:05 on the front end, on the front end, absolutely I mean, but from the back end, from a platform perspective, Duda handles all of that. It's self contained. Got it? I don't have to worry about that. And they're also always adding new features, which is another thing I absolutely love about them there, and I have yet to find, let me rephrase that. I've probably found a couple of things that if I could not duplicate on Duda to match WordPress, it would require code, and I don't code, but I can still achieve the goal of what my clients are looking for. There's nothing that they've said I have to have this that I can't provide. And the offset of not having the worry around the tech is has always been worth it. Michael Hingson  34:55 So the creators of Duda in the background as. They make updates and changes, they go out to everybody who uses it to create their websites automatically. Is that? Is that what happens? Lori Osbourne  35:07 Okay, yeah, it's seamless. Yeah, you don't even, you have no idea that there's even updates being done. It's completely seamless. Michael Hingson  35:15 Yeah, okay, well, I understand that. That makes a lot of sense. What's the one mistake that you find that keeps business owners from really progressing and keeping their websites and them invisible? What's the biggest mistake you see? Lori Osbourne  35:36 Messaging unclear, messaging which, which really goes back to the brand. If you don't understand your brand, you don't understand your why, and you don't know how to express how you solve problems for your ideal client, let me, let me rephrase. If you don't even know your ideal client is and you're trying to speak to them, a lot of people think they sell to everyone, and when you try to sell to everyone, you sell to no one. And if you are trying to speak to the masses from your website, you're going to lose the people you really want to reach. So it comes down to that, that niching down factor and really understanding your ideal client, so that when they hit your website, they immediately know you understand my problem and you can fix it. And it really comes down to that versus I can fix, you know, I can build a website for anybody. Well, then that makes me no different than a website developer down the street. Then it comes down to a price comparison, and then we're just bidding against each other. So you've gotta, you've gotta what makes you special, and what and and your why is a big part of that. Your values are a big part of that. And speaking the right language and that messaging. Michael Hingson  37:03 Can you tell me a story of maybe one customer that you worked with where you can demonstrate exactly what you're talking about here and why it made a difference without mentioning customer names, but the story? Lori Osbourne  37:17 Oh, yeah, um, you know, it's been a while since I did that realtor, but that realtor is still just such a great example, because you the fact that he was from Scotland doesn't necessarily seem significant, but it really does, because, you Know that Scottish accent made him endearing. He was a very professional, good looking guy. And you go out to his website, and it was, I can still see it today. It was like green and this old, funky text, and it, it represented him in no way. And I remember the first thing he told me was, you know, I've got this video where I introduced myself and I went, why in the world is that not on your homepage, like what people need to hear you speak and see you and experience you. He was phenomenal. And we did three deals with him. He was phenomenal at what he did, and that what, you know, if we had just rebuilt his website and just did the video, it would have that alone would have made a huge difference in people knowing who they were working with and how he was different. And another example I can give more recently, I work with a mentor who mentors seven figure coaches on how to work harder, make more money and and do it in less, less investment of your time. And when I took over her WordPress website for for two years, I just kept repeating and rebuilding the same crap, basically. And finally, when I decided to leave WordPress, I said, you know, I really want to start all over. And I realized in that two years, you know, I had not taken the time to really get to know her brand. And when we sat down and really learned what made her special and different, and we were able to capture that in in the website, that the difference in the experience was night and day, you know, before it was just text, and, you know, a little bit of information. She never referred anybody to her website. And now it, you know, opens with a video. She's also a professional speaker. Opens with a video of her speaking. She is very she's a. Ballroom dancer on the side, she's very elite. So we, you know, pulling in things like gold and video, I have a lot of motion on the website with gold moving because it, it, it's that brand of that dancer that, you know, that eliteness of it and it, it's subtle, and it has nothing to do with the messaging side that I just mentioned, but it's still back to the brand and the representing of who you are, who she is, what we're selling, you know, we're selling ourselves. Michael Hingson  40:33 Yeah, well, websites and website developers put all sorts of things out there and that that's not necessarily a good thing. But what are some signs that a business's online presence don't necessarily match their real life expertise? Because I I believe that people see through people who just sort of talk, and I think that that all too often, you get this reaction, oh, they're just talking that isn't what they really believe or that isn't what they really know. So what are some signs that the online presence doesn't match what they really know and what they really are? Lori Osbourne  41:15 Part of it is that that genericness, if you if you can't even say who you are serving, then you're obviously the person you're looking at is obviously not clear about their ideal client. If it's not clear who they are serving, and if it's this just generic message of not in these words, but we're the best use us. You know, there's, there's no detail about what makes them different and how they specifically solve your problem. If the website is completely outdated or generic, that may or may not allude to anything but it, it definitely shows that they don't, are not using their website to show their expertise. The other huge thing, I would say, is testimonials. Every website should have reviews. I mean, what better way to sell ourselves than to have someone else say how we're different, how we operate and why we're the why we're the best. That is huge. If it's all about them, as in the person's website you're looking at, if it's not, if I'm, if I'm getting on a website and they're not even acknowledging what's in it for me and how they're going to solve my problems, then I'm not going to have any confidence that they have any idea how to solve my problems. They haven't even they haven't even talked about my problems. They haven't even mentioned my problems. They're just telling me that they're selling me something, and this is how much it costs, and this is what it's going to do. But I but do you get me? Do you know? Do you understand me? I think all those are it's really important that we are speaking to the ideal client in their language about their problem. Michael Hingson  43:10 I have heard so many times and totally agree with and work to do this myself. Michael Hingson  43:18 The whole concept of when I'm invited to speak, it's not about me. Yeah, I'm invited to speak, but my job is to enhance, to help to make life as easy as possible for the event organizer, to help the event organizer make this, the whole conference, even better than they thought it would be. And and I have to do that because it's not about me, and it should never be about me as such, right? Lori Osbourne  43:48 It's also about your audience and your audience, yeah, so that they know you want them to want to know more. Yeah, that's also the purpose of your website to make people want to know more. Michael Hingson  44:01 Yeah, very true, and it should be that way. And if you're doing it right, you'll also provide more for them to know. Right? Lori Osbourne  44:15 Absolutely. Well, that would be something else that I would say I I always encourage people to give away as much as possible on their website. It if people know that you really want to help me solve my problems, and you're willing to give me something for free that starts a relationship. And that's really, at the end of the day, that's the point of the website. It's not to sell, it's to start a relationship. It's like the first step of dating. We're not getting married yet. We're dating, and if you're if you're giving away a piece of yourself through a video or a download or even a free course. Course, that's it. That's going to endear the audience to to want to come back for more. And even blogs, great blogs will get people coming back for more. And people always go, Well, you know, if I give everything away, I'm not going to make any money. No, you give away what? What doesn't cost you time, but is giving some knowledge so that they want more, and they know that you you get them, and they can trust, you know, like and trust so they can build that, that base for a relationship. Michael Hingson  45:32 Yeah, and it, it makes perfect sense. It is all about building trust. And everything that we do is all about building trust, and the more trust you build, the more loyalty you'll create. Lori Osbourne  45:47 Absolutely, yes, absolutely. Michael Hingson  45:49 So we've talked about website accessibility. What is website accessibility and why is it something that people really should focus on? Why is it important? Lori Osbourne  45:59 That feels weird coming from you, Mike, Michael Hingson  46:03 because I know you are an expert in this, but I preach it, but I preach it all the time, so I want to hear what somebody else has to say, and I want people who are watching and listening to this hear from somebody else other than me. Okay, that's the motivation behind it. Lori Osbourne  46:18 All right. All right. Well, website accessibility is at its core. It's making the website available and usable for everyone, including those with disabilities. So whether it's blindness or inability to use a mouse or you said it earlier, dyslexic, Michael Hingson  46:40 epilepsy, any number of things, right? Lori Osbourne  46:43 So anybody, just like accessibility for a ramp into a store, it's allowing me, from my home, as as a disabled person, to be able to function on your website. And as we know, I believe the stat is 20% of people have some kind of disability. It's also an inclusion. It is a piece of I consider a piece of your marketing, because if you are excluding 20% of the people with your website, why? Why are you doing that? It also builds strong Search Engine Optimization. Because if you look at all of the guidelines for accessibility, they're very similar to the guidelines you need to have in place for good search engine optimization. Google is looking for the exact same things. Yep. So it's it's really just making your website available to everyone Michael Hingson  47:42 well, and the reality is, well, let me ask this question, rather than me just saying it beyond legal compliance. Why should accessibility be a priority in website design? You've kind of alluded to it already. Lori Osbourne  47:56 Yeah, part of what I just said, it's including everyone. It's not excluding 20% of your market, and it's building trust, inclusivity and credibility. It's, it's, and it to me, it's showing that you care. It's, it's very bothersome to me when someone says, Well, I probably won't get sued, so I'm not going to worry about it. Okay? But why do you want to not do these basic things so that everyone can access your website? Well? Michael Hingson  48:33 And also, in reality, it does get back to if you're a website owner, that is, you're a company that has a website, and you recognize that the job of your website is to help people see why you have something they need. The fact of the matter is, do you really want to not make available to 20 or 25% of the population your website, or to put it another way, don't you want to make sure that you are making your information available to everyone? And that's what the real reason for website accessibility is truly all about. The fact of the matter is that it's good business to make your website accessible. Lori Osbourne  49:24 Absolutely, yes, absolutely. Michael Hingson  49:26 What are some high impact changes that you think that website owners can make, to make their websites or to have their websites be more accessible, maybe even just some simple things? Lori Osbourne  49:38 Oh, there are so many simple things. I mean, the easiest thing that so many people miss is adding alt text to images. I mean, it's, and it's one thing I love about Duda, by the way, it they do it with AI and do it for you, and you can edit it. It's so, so wonderful. But it's, it's a simple step. It also is. Great step to even help with SEO, because you can include some keywords there, but that that alt text tells someone that's using a tool that's blind exactly what that image is, and what is the point in putting that image on your website if it's not going to provide any value to those that can't see. I mean that, in my opinion, another thing is the contrast in colors. A lot of people don't understand that contrasting colors has a lot to do with readability, and if you are putting two colors together, I mean, think about it even from a scene person, if you're looking at it and you can't read it. It's not accessible, right? So, you know, have high contrast in the colors of text on anything over it. Don't try to put something over an image that can't be read that just just, don't do it. Skip that. I was just doing this on my website today. I was trying to put an image, and I went, you know what? That's just not going to work. I'm going back to a solid color. It doesn't it's it and it, you know, that's from a business perspective as well. Because even if you're not thinking about accessibility, if someone can't read the text or can't read the button, they're not going to click it. You're not going to read it. They're not going to buy it if they can't read it. So simple little things like that. Those would be the two biggest things I would say. And then just, you know, little additional things like making sure that your website is converting properly to mobile, if it's if it's not, if things are coming off the page, because you didn't bother to look at the mobile side, which is easy to miss on many platforms that can have a huge impact on the scene and those that need the tools or need accessibility pieces that's, you know, commonplace design and very easy thing to fix. Michael Hingson  52:11 It's been a while since I looked at this website, and I think it's not quite what it used to be, but for a while, my favorite website, absolutely. My favorite website for accessibility was the website of the National Security Agency, nsa.gov, Michael Hingson  52:31 of all the websites in the entire world. The reason I liked it is that not only did they have all text on images if you were using a screen reader and you moved your cursor over an image, you suddenly got a very detailed description of that image, like you. Michael Hingson  52:55 You moved your cursor where you used your screen reader to move over the American flag. It would say the American flag on a flagpole hanging in front of the opening to the building of the National Security Agency. Yada yada yada. I mean, it's just everything was there. It was the most amazing website. I don't know that it's that way anymore. I haven't looked at it in a little while, but I was very impressed with how much they did and relative and relevantly and appropriately so to make sure that everything on that website was totally usable. And a lot of people could say, Well, why do I have to do that? And the answer is, you have to do it for the same reason that you want to make your website accessible, if you will, for people who don't happen to have a disability. The reality is, all those things that you put on the website for people who can see them and so on, like pictures and so on, if you don't make those things accessible, you're doing a disservice to a significant amount of the population. Whereas, if you do it all, then while you can look at the picture, I can hear all about it, and that's the way it ought to Lori Osbourne  54:10 be well. And there's so much I mean to me that is an opportunity to to even go further with the folks that need the screen reader. Because, I mean, when I'm and I mentioned that dude, it does it with AI, but they, they do it too generically. When I go in, I'm doing exactly what you're talking about. I want to, I want to build the presence of the picture. This is who they're doing, who it is from the business, and this is what they're doing, and this is what you know, this offer is talking about that's an extra sales opportunity right there. For those that you know, need the alt text, why not use that? Michael Hingson  54:49 And also, I'm amazed at how many people may look at pictures and so on and look at words and not really pay attention to them very well, because they just kind of skip over it. So the more you can do to attract people's attention to the right things. Is relevant too. I'm amazed at how many people just gloss over so much. Lori Osbourne  55:09 Oh, absolutely. Well, you know, this kind of become our society, yeah, short attention span for sure. You know, I want to mention two videos. I really feel like people need videos on their website, especially of themselves, because it helps people get to know you. But you need to have that closed captioning and again, dialog. Michael Hingson  55:33 You need to have dialog so that a person who can't see the video will also know what the video shows. Lori Osbourne  55:41 Explain, explain what you mean by that a little bit more. Michael Hingson  55:44 So you go to a website, and there's a video, and you click it, and you start hearing music, and that's all you hear, even though, on the screen you see a person walking down the street, walking into somebody's store, finding a product they want and buying it. But if you don't have a way to make that information audibly accessible to people who can't see the images and who don't see the videos, then what good is it you haven't made it accessible? Yes, closed captioning works for deaf or hard of hearing people, but again, there's so much more that needs to be done. Wow. Lori Osbourne  56:25 Thank you for sharing that, Mike. You just gave me more to think about on videos. Michael Hingson  56:31 One of my favorite commercials to pick on today, and for the longest time, I had no idea at all what it was about. It starts out with music, and somebody says something like, so what do people over 60s show and bring out today? And they talk about love and they talk about something else, and suddenly the sound goes dead, and all you hear for the next 20 seconds or more is this high pitched whistle sound. Ooh, yeah. And I finally got somebody. I finally was in a room with somebody when I heard the beginning of this, and I said, What is it showing? And all it was showing, and what, apparently it is, is a promotion for people getting the RSV vaccination. Lori Osbourne  57:19 Oh, right. Oh, I do know what commercial you're talking about, yes, but text just goes on the screen. Michael Hingson  57:26 RSV, RSV, RSV. But there's nothing that says what that is at all, period, Lori Osbourne  57:33 because they're trying to make the point that you're that your life shuts down when this hits. But yeah, for someone like you, that's completely worthless. Michael Hingson  57:41 Not only does my life not shut down, my life gets very active, and I want to go off and find those commercial designers and show them what true accessibility really ought to be about. But that's another story. But yeah, Lori Osbourne  57:53 yeah, exactly, wow. I mean, I think about you every time I see that commercial, those rare times I see commercials, Michael Hingson  58:05 what's one of the what's one of the myths about branding and websites that you could erase, that you really wish you could race forever? Lori Osbourne  58:18 I probably told you to ask me that question, and now I'm stumped by how I want to answer it. I think, I think I know where I wanted to go with that. Yes, a lot of people think branding is just colors and fonts, and honestly, when I first started doing it, I thought it was just colors and fonts. And I kind of go, I went into Okay, colors and fonts, and then consistency, okay, we want to make sure we got we're consistent with our colors and fonts across everything that we do that's that's branding, that's visual branding. But real branding is Our Story. Is who we are, what we stand for and who we serve. It's the package of everything around what we're selling, back to selling ourselves and really understanding this package and making that consistent across everything. And consistency is huge, in my opinion, when it comes to branding, if you have a different header image or marketing image on every single thing you do and there's no consistency in the look, then you're not going to be memorable. You. I can't help you see this, Mike, but anyone that does go out to anything of mine, I have a very consistent image that was used to build my logo, and it's on everything that I do. I also wear very bright, colorful glasses. Everything I do is very bright and colorful, and it's memorable when people see me and they see my glasses, it can be three years later and they go. I don't remember your name, but boy, I remember those glasses. You know, it's, it's, and that's part of my branding. When people say, I love your your glasses, I go, thank you. It's part of my branding. Yeah. So it's a, it's an overall everything about you. When people describe me, they usually describe me as bright and colorful, like, that's, that's one of the first things that comes to their their mind, and then they it translates to energy, because they think bright, colorful energy. So it's, you know what branding really is, is, what do people say about you when you're not in the room? Michael Hingson  1:00:30 Yeah, that's, that's a good that's what it is. Well, if there is a business owner who is in our audience today who feels overwhelmed by their digital presence. What would you suggest is the first step they should take to change that? Lori Osbourne  1:00:47 Well, the the first thing I would love to see anyone do is sign up for a visibility review or audit with me, so that we can look at your presence and talk about it, and I can give you some very specific suggestions for how to improve your online visibility. If you're wanting to do something on your own and you're you're trying to figure out where to start, sit down and look at first, your your homepage, in your first line of every bit of your marketing and ask yourself, does it say who I serve and how I serve them, and the problems that I solve. Because every ounce of your marketing needs to say that immediately you have less than eight seconds when someone hits your website. And there's all kinds of some people say three, some people say 10s and 15. I just leave it at eight. Do eight or eight or less seconds on your website. So start there is my messaging clear? And then look at your website overall and does it represent me and the message I want people to see. We can go into a whole lot more about it being up to date and everything else, but that's where I would start, right there. Michael Hingson  1:01:58 So how do people reach out to you to get your help to deal with all of this. Lori Osbourne  1:02:02 Well, you can obviously go to my website, which is biz bolster.com, B, I, Z, B, O, L, S, T, E, r.com and I believe you will be sharing a link to that visibility audit. Just sign up for that or a free strategy session. But I encourage the visibility audit, because it literally takes about an hour of my time to check out everything about you and then share that with you. So this is an investment that I'm willing to give you to help you all understand how you show up online, and then what to do about Michael Hingson  1:02:45 it, biz, bolster.com, I hope people will do that, and they can reach out and contact you through that website. Lori Osbourne  1:02:53 Yes, click on, let's chat, and it gives you all the all the calls that you can sign up for in my calendar, and I would absolutely love to speak to anybody that has questions or wants some direction. Michael Hingson  1:03:07 Well, cool. Well, I really appreciate you being here today and spending so much time talking about all this, and I hope people will take it to heart. Wherever you are listening. Reach out, biz, bolster.com and get some insights and get some help to improve the website the web world, because only about 3% of all websites are really accessible today, which means there are a whole lot that are not, and there is no real excuse for that being the case. So reach out and Michael Hingson  1:03:41 you can get all the help that you need. I'd love to hear from you, to hear what you think about today's podcast. Please feel free to email me at Michael H, I m, I C, H, A, E, L, H, I at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, and wherever you're listening, please give us a five star review. We value your ratings and your reviews a lot, and I but I do want to hear from you. I want to hear what your thoughts are. Also, if you know of anyone who might make a good guest for unstoppable mindset, Lori, including you, would really appreciate you introducing us, because we're always looking for people who have great stories to tell, and today has certainly been one of my favorite podcast recordings in a long time, and that's because we really did have fun, and I think we accomplished a lot and we learned a lot. So I want to thank you, Lori, once again, for being here and for being a part of unstoppable mindset. Lori Osbourne  1:04:35 Thank you, Mike. It has definitely been a pleasure. I've enjoyed talking with you a lot. Michael Hingson  1:04:42 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

The hour opened with a tribute to Kobe Bryant's legendary mindset and work ethic — “Job's not done.” Bellio shared memories from her time working with Lakers greats like Kobe, Shaq, and the late Chick Hearn. The tone shifted as Los Angeles agreed to pay an $828 million settlement over new sexual abuse claims. Conway then lightened things up with some wild Vegas roommate stories, and the hour wrapped with news that Jack in the Box sold Del Taco — and took a financial hit in the process.

Anthony was asked about what can be done to keep Chick Hearn's sayings fresh in the minds of the next generations of Lakers fans so he explained why it's tougher than we think. Then, he celebrates New Orleans. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Anthony is back from New Orleans and has a full mailbag to get to. In it, listeners asked about Rui Hachimura's next contract, whether broadcasters should bring back some of Chick Hearn's old sayings, the NBA schedule and one big potential tweak and more. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Matt ”Money” Smith from Petros & Money on AM 570 L.A. Sports talks about the Lakers being sold for $10B has a great Chick Hearn story // Costco gift cards – always manipulating the discount. Work-around using Costco gift cards // Tom Cruise is finally getting an Oscar — as will Dolly Parton, Debbie Allen and Wynn Thomas WHIP: How much has Tom Cruise grossed worldwide at the box office // Valley Village murder suspect tied to 2nd Murder and attempted murder -Prosecutors have filed new charges against Erick Escamilla, who was arrested last month after a man was murdered in April at an apartment complex in Valley Village Razor Blade Throat symptom from new strain of covid Nimbus  #PMS #AM570 #MattMoneySmith #Lakers #Costco #Coupons #Discounts #Oscars #TomCruise #DollyParton #WynnThomas #ValleyVillageMurder #RazorBladeThroat #Covid #Nimbus 

Mason and Ireland tip off the show with the Thunder's huge win last night! The NBA Finals are now tied 1-1, ahead of game three on Wednesday in Indiana! Don Nelson was given a lifetime achievement award yesterday! On this day in 1987, one of Chick Hearn's best calls. Wheel of Questions! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

From time to time I am contacted by someone who says they have an interesting and thought provoking guest who would be perfect for Unstoppable Mindset. Such was the case when I was contacted about our guest this time, Dre Baldwin. Dre and I had an initial conversation and I invited him to appear as a guest. I must say that he more than exceeded my expectations. And now he is back for a second time with us with more stories and insights.   You may recall from my first episode with him that Dre grew up in Philadelphia. He wanted to do something with sports and tried out various options until he discovered Basketball in high school. While he wasn't considered overly exceptional and only played one year in high school he realized that Basketball was the sport for him.   Dre went to Penn State and played all four of his college years. Again, while he played consistently and reasonably well, he was not noticed and after college he was not signed to a professional team. He worked at a couple of jobs for a time and then decided to try to get noticed for basketball by going to a camp where he could be seen by scouts and where he could prove he had the talent to make basketball a profession. As he will tell us, eventually he did get a contract to play professionally. Other things happened along the way as you will hear. Dre discovered Youtube and the internet and began posting basketball tips which became popular.   In this episode we continue to discuss with Dre the lessons he wishes to convey as well as his life philosophy. Dre discuss more about the value and need for personal initiative. He tells us the value of having a personal initiative mindset and how that can lead to high performance.   I asked Dre about how playing basketball prepared him for his work in business. His answer will surprise you. It did me. As he points out, his business preparation came earlier and in different ways than playing basketball.   I also asked Dre why he left playing professional basketball. Again, his answer is fascinating. I will leave that for Dre to tell you.   I hope you enjoy my talk with Dre as much as I. Dre Baldwin provided many lessons we all can use. Who knows? Dre, you and I may talk again. Stay tuned.       About the Guest:   As CEO and Founder of Work On Your Game Inc., Dre Baldwin has given 4 TEDxTalks on Discipline, Confidence, Mental Toughness & Personal Initiative and has authored 35 books. He has appeared in national campaigns with Nike, Finish Line, Wendy's, Gatorade, Buick, Wilson Sports, STASH Investments and DIME magazine.    Dre has published over 8,000 videos to 142,000+ subscribers, his content being consumed over 103 million times.    Dre's daily Work On Your Game MasterClass has amassed over 2,900 episodes and more than 7.3 million downloads.    In just 5 years, Dre went from the end of his high school team's bench to a 9-year professional basketball career. He played in 8 countries including Lithuania, Germany, Montenegro, Slovakia and Germany.    Dre invented his Work On Your Game framework as a "roadmap in reverse" to help professionals with High Performance, Consistency and Results.    A Philadelphia native, Dre lives in Miami.   Ways to connect Dre:   http://Instagram.com/DreBaldwin http://YouTube.com/Dreupt https://www.facebook.com/WorkOnYourGameUniversity http://LinkedIn.com/in/DreAllDay http://X.com/DreAllDay http://TikTok.com/WorkOnYourGame   Kindly use this link for our Free book, The Third Day

Episode 331 – Mariners Gettin' Rowdy   RUNDOWN   From Easter brawls over Sephora to dueling Survivor vocals, Episode 331 hits the nostalgic highs before hammering down on the Mariners' electric resurgence and the Kraken's collapse. Mitch and Hotshot cover the rise of Cal Raleigh, the mystery of Julio's slump, and how Rowdy Tellez suddenly became a cult hero. Golf writer Gabby Herzig joins to share her surreal experience playing Augusta National just hours after covering Rory's Grand Slam drama. Meanwhile, the Kraken No-Table reveals harsh truths about management, future prospects, and the team's steep ticket discounts as fans eye the looming NBA return.   GUESTS   • Joe Doyle | MLB Draft Analyst, Over Slot • Brady Farkas | Refuse to Lose Podcast • Gabby Herzig | Golf Writer, The Athletic • RJ Eskanos | Emerald City Hockey • Dylan Travers | Emerald City Hockey   TABLE OF CONTENTS   0:00 | Aurora trivia, Chick Hearn origin story, David Bickler, and NBA expansion teaser from Adam Silver 17:59 | Survivor hits, Easter reflections, and the Mariners' 88-win pace and offensive eruption 31:07 | GUEST: Mariners No-Table (Joe Doyle & Brady Farkas) – Julio's struggles, Cal's power, face-of-franchise debate, and out-on-a-limb predictions 59:53 | GUEST: Gabby Herzig (The Athletic) – Covering Rory's heartbreak, then playing Augusta the next morning 1:26:35 | GUEST: Kraken No-Table (Emerald City Hockey) – Ron Francis returns, offseason options, ticket price slash, and NBA competition 1:48:16 | The Other Stuff Segment: Pete Carroll teaching at USC, Tom Brady guest lecturing, Travis Hunter NFL ultimatum, Dion Sanders retiring jerseys, Shohei Ohtani's baby, Baylor basketball team fully entering transfer portal, women's tennis body odor controversy, Aaron Donald restraining order, Bill Belichick's girlfriend enters Miss Maine, Bill Gates sells unused $644M super yacht, Lee Corso retiring from College GameDay, Missouri State player Tarick McGee dies, Don Hasselbeck dies, Wink Martindale dies, Bomb threat on cruise ship over pet-sitting, Belgian teens smuggling ants, Virginia state flag banned in Texas, Inaugural sperm race announced RIPs: Tarick McGee – Missouri State football player, died of accidental gunshot wound at age 21, Don Hasselbeck – Former NFL tight end and father of Matt and Tim Hasselbeck, died at 70, Wink Martindale – Legendary TV game show host, died at 91 Headlines: Man sends cruise ship bomb threat to avoid pet-sitting girlfriend's animals, Belgian teens arrested with 5,000 smuggled ants, Virginia state flag banned in Texas over exposed breast on seal, Inaugural sperm racing announced, featuring USC vs UCLA swimmers

Mark Pope tells some national talking heads about his Wildcats; (19:00) UK Voice Tom Leach; (39:00) Unforgettable guard Sean Woods taking NCAA and KHSAA tournaments; (58:00) West End Bureau Chief Gary Moore talking basketball & baseball PLUS the night Chick Hearn called out Mychal Thompson...

0:04 ... Opening Animation and Welcome to the show.  Ross introduces the 48 Minutes crew of Bruce Bernstein and Michael "World B" Freer. 0:40 ... Show #123 is dedicated to Lou Williams 1:10 ... Ross Live commercial read for BetOnline 1:48 ... Joel Embiid signs a three year contract extension for $192.9 million and everyone feels he has earned it and is deserving of the pay day. 5:48 ... Mitchell Robinson of the Knicks will miss the first few months of the season and coach Tom Thibodeau will need to use all of his creativity in order to fill the void he leaves. 10:17 ... With Boston's Kristaps Porzingis also missing the first three months, Embiid and the Sixers could bust out of thre gate and build a nice cushion in the Atlantic Division. 13:25 ... Western Conference Over/Under Win Predictions ... Phoenix Suns 15:42 ... Sacramento Kings 18:24 ... Golden State Warriors 20:36 ... Los Angeles Lakers 24:04 ... LA Clippers 26:46 ... Oklahoma City Thunder 30:13 ...Minnesota Timberwolves 33:29 ... Denver Nuggets 35:30 ... Utah Jazz 38:03 ... Portland Trailblazers 41:49 ... Dallas Mavericks 44:26 ... Memphis Grizzlies 47:53 ... New Orleans Pelicans 50:48 ... Houston Rockets 53:06 ... San Antonio Spurs 55:50 ... Ross pays tribute to Phoenix Suns play-by-play announcer Al McCoy who passed away this week at the age of 91. 56:36 ... Bruce follows up with some thoughts on how long-time play-by-play announcers bond with the fans in a much different way than the players.  Legendary announcers like Chick Hearn, Marv Albert, McCoy, and others like Mike Gorman become part of the lives of the fans of the teams. 58:04 ... Ross says goodbye   TRT 58:19

0:00 ... Hello and Welcome to the show. 0:51 ... Bruce live Bet Online Commercial Read. 1:29 ... Bruce introduces Ryan Ward, the host of the Jello Jigglin podcast and reporter for LakersNation.com. 2:07 ... Ryan explains "Jello Jigglin," the name of his podcast which honors Chick Hearn, the legendary Lakers announcer. 3:06 ... Everything begins and ends with LeBron James when it comes to the Lakers ... Bruce thinks he's the GOAT but Ryan has an alternate opinion .... Ryan explains why it's still Michael Jordan for him. 6:12 ... LeBron's son Bronny is a Laker and defense appears to be his strength .... Ryan shares his thoughts on Bronny and how he can use his defense to succeed in the NBA.  JJ Redick said Lu Dort could be a model for Bronny's upward trajectory. 8:56 ... Ryan feels Bronny can eventually become a solid shooter and he used Jason Kidd as an example. 11:03 ... JJ Redick is a rookie coach and he's LeBron's guy (for now), but the fans are not expecting much from him.  But he'll still take heat if the team flounders out of the gate.  Ryan ridicules those who compare Redick to a young Pat Riley. 14:13 ... Bronny has gotten all the attention but top draft choice Dalton Knecht is a three point shooter and could be a major factor right out of the box. 15:21 ... Ryan sizes up the Lakers backcourt situation with newly re-signed Max Christie joining Austin Reaves, D'Angelo Russell, and Gabe Vincent. 16:38 ... Christie signed a nice contract (4 yrs/$32m) but is that deal something the Lakers should have committed to? 18:43 ... This is the last gasp of the LeBron era and Ryan feels the rebuilding process is upon us soon.  He even makes a bold prediction about LeBron's future. 20:42 ... Anthony Davis is still at the top of his game and this could be the "last best chance" for AD and LBJ to get one more ring. 22:07 ... Ryan questioned why JJ Redick dissed AD's defense last season and suggested it might have been personal. 24:28 ... World B asks Ryan about AD's shot selection and what he needs to do to be dominant on offense.  While three point shooting has never been his thing, Redick loves the three and may ask AD to shoot them more frequently. 25:47 ... Bruce asks Ryan if the supporting cast is good enough for a long playoff run without a mid-season trade? 27:04 ... Has Rob Pelinka had a successful tenure as general manager after winning it all in 2020?  Ryan had a major problem with the Russell Westbrook trade and agrees with Dwight Howard about how breaking up the 2020 champions was a mistake. 30:40 ... The Clippers would like to consider themselves rivals of the Lakers and now they have their own new arena.  But much like the Nets vs the Knicks in New York, the Clips will never be the equal of the Lakers.  Ryan had fun describing how the Lakers built a new scoreboard in response to the Clippers massive new video board but he couldn't tell the difference between the new one and previous one. 35:04 ... Steve Ballmer could have moved the Clippers to Seattle but he chose money over team success. 35:39 ... This is the first time that the fans see Jeanie Buss as "public enemy #1" even though she is a great person.   Bruce shares his thoughts on how Jeanie hasn't had it easy with family conflicts affecting the operation of the team.  And the relatively small number of people in the inner circle has sometimes given LeBron more opportunities to exert his influence. 37:55 ... Ryan says Lakers Nation is convinced that LeBron is running the entire franchise and the fans are very negative towards the Lakers heading into the season. 40:06 ... The Lakers have usually found success trading for stars and even though they've drafted well, they always trade promising young guys for "one guy." 41:34 ... World B tees up a discussion on whether the team has a "Post LeBron Exit Strategy."  Ryan feels the future is really uncertain and their pattern of trading young players for stars probably won't continue. 45:27 .... The Knicks would like to emulate the Lakers in the way they attract stars, but now they're taking a different approach and the Knicks are hitting their stride. 46:50 ... Magic Johnson and Anthony Edwards recently feuded over Ant's statement about old school guys not being as good as the new school guys.  We all ridiculed Edwards for his bizarre take. 51:20 ... World B asks Ryan about Kobe vs LeBron and Ryan feels Kobe's mentality set him apart from LeBron.  He was a killer on the court, the way his mind worked, and the way he carried himself were all amazing.  Ryan said LeBron can do everything on the court but off the court he was not as great as Kobe.  Kobe was an inspiration in many non-basketball situations. 54:24 ... Bruce feels Kobe is an eternal life force who remains a presence in the hearts and minds of basketball fans everywhere. 55:46 ... Bruce feels that the Celtics and Lakers complete each other and measure themselves against each other.  There is a lot of respect there.  But Ryan feels Cedric Maxwell is one player that Lakers fans really hate. 57:54 ... Bruce thanks Ryan for joining the show and says goodbye . TRT 58:41          

C&R have fun talking geriatric hangover & in sports, overstaying your welcome! Callers & the crew give their big takeaways from the debate, as it compares to the sports & music worlds. There's Chick Hearn drama. What is the real reason some people are mad at the Lakers for drafting Bronny? They get into a topic sparked by Rams star Puka Nacua! Plus, 'CHIPOTLE WORKER OR WNBA PLAYER' bum rushes the Vegas streets!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

C&R have Friday fun talking CNN hangover & in sports, overstaying your welcome! Callers & the crew give their big takeaways from the debate, as it compares to the sports & music worlds. There's Chick Hearn drama. Plus, what is the real reason some people are mad at the Lakers for drafting Bronny? See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Adam welcomes comedian Lachlan Patterson to the show and they open by discussing Adam's failed relocation to Sunnyvale, California and Lachlan's start in stand up. Then, they talk about Joe Biden coming ‘unplugged' during his Juneteenth speech and whether or not he's going to pull a ‘Chick Hearn' after the election. Next, they play ‘Nerdwalking' and find out what the new-hire, Kyle, knows or doesn't know about the world of construction. Then, Chris reads the news including stories about P. Diddy returning his key to New York City, a graduation brawl in Los Angeles, and people dealing with ‘time blindness.' Lastly, Batya Ungar-Sargon joins the show to talk about America's working class, homelessness and her new book ‘Second Class: How the Elites Betrayed America's Working Men and Women.' For more with Lachlan Patterson: ● See him live: July 5th at Levity Live Oxnard ● INSTAGRAM & TIKTOK: @lachjaw ● http://lachlanpatterson.com For more with Batya Ungar-Sargon: ● Buy her new book: ‘Second Class: How the Elites Betrayed America's Working Men and Women' ● INSTAGRAM: @batyaus ● TWITTER: @bungarsargon Thank you for supporting our sponsors: ● http://Doomberg.com/Adam ● http://OReillyAuto.com/adam ● http://TommyJohn.com/Adam ● http://Shopify.com/carolla

It's time for the Two O'clock call of the day! The caller takes us down memory lane with Chick Hearn! Women's sports are finally getting the spotlight they deserve, especially women's college basketball. Ireland addresses the importance of picking the correct coach. Ireland and Momo couldn't leave this story out of the show today! Wassup Foo!  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Oakland Athletics broadcaster, Johnny Doskow, joined the show to tell his incredible story of hard work, patience & perseverance.Johnny broadcasted minor league baseball for 30 years before finally achieving his dream of reaching the big leagues!Johnny also reflected on his life growing up in Los Angeles & listening to legendary broadcasters like Vin Scully & Chick Hearn. He also gave credit to his wife for always believing in him.Make sure to check out his book on baseball influenced haikus that he wrote during the pandemic as well. Please visit: www.OnDeckShopOnline.comThe shirt that I'm wearing in this interview can be found at www.baseballism.comBaseballism has lots of MLB team/player/movie inspired clothing that all baseball fans will love!For more exclusive content, follow the Jim on Base Show on social media (Twitter/Instagram/TikToK): @JimonBaseShow

A third generation actor and one of the most recognized faces in both comedy and drama, Spencer Garrett is the ultimate undercover cop…or the face of a disgraced Senator…or a Starfleet doctor. On today's episode of Hollywood at Home, Garrett reveals what was behind the secrecy surrounding "Once Upon a Time in Hollywood", the bonds he formed with Brad Pitt and Leonardo DiCaprio, his experience during Issa Rae's "Insecure," and what it took to embody the larger-than-life Chick Hearn in "Winning Time: The Rise of the Lakers Dynasty." Join us as he shares the intimate, behind-the-scenes moments that have shaped his illustrious career, providing listeners with a bold look into the heart and soul of Hollywood.

Mike Coughlin was born in 1947 and had what most people would say is a somewhat normal childhood. I would agree, but it is relevant to say that Mike was diagnosed in the second grade with youth related Macular Degeneration. While he did not lose all his eyesight, he lost enough that reading, especially out loud in school, was not doable for him. In fact, his eye specialists did not even tell him that he was what we classify today as legally blind. Michael did not learn the true extent of his eye condition until he was in his twenties. He was not given access to what we call today assistive technology. Even so, he survived and flourished. He is an Eagle Scout and has achieved the highest rank in the Boy Scouts Order of the Arrow society. Mike secured a college degree from the University of Notre Dame and a Master's degree in Ocean Engineering from the University of Miami. Later he earned a second Master's degree in systems management (MSSM) from the University of Southern California's continuing education program. He worked for General Dynamics for seven years. Then he went with his boss to work for 20 years at Bolt Beranek and Newman Inc in acoustics. He then worked, again as an underwater acoustical engineer, for 20 years at Boeing. Michael is clearly unstoppable. He will discuss the various technologies he began to use although somewhat later in life. He also will discuss just how he accomplished so much and, as you will see, it is all about attitude. About the Guest: Until early in my second-grade year at St. John the Baptist Catholic grammar school in Fort Wayne, Indiana, no-one knew my eyes were changing. It was the eye screening they provided that singled me out as having a problem. My wonderful parents, Joseph and Dorothy Coughlin, transplants to Fort Wayne from New York City, started trying to find out what was wrong. Eventually they learned it was Macular Degermation, something rarely found in young people. My earliest years were spent on a farm outside of Fort Wayne as my parents had moved from New York to Fort Wayne due to a transfer by the General Electric Company, where my father was an engineer. The transfer included a move to a rural rental farmhouse on a 40-acre farm and the birth of myself in 1947 and my brother two years later. My mother, with a master's degree in education from Columbia University, was raising my brother and I and teaching English at the local rural high school. During those four years my father took up hunting and growing a large garden, a big step for a kid from New York, and I learned about rural life with the ability to play on farm equipment and see many types of farm animals. Early on I wanted to be a farmer. Once I reached school age, we moved into Fort Wayne for the schools. Fort Wayne is a middle sized Mid-west city of about 250,000 people. It was like so many Mid-western cities of that day. We lived outside the center of the city and my schools, both grammar and high school, were made up of middle-class children. As my sight degraded, I was taken to several ophthalmologists and to the University of Indiana Medical Center, but learned little helpful information other than the details of my situation. My teachers accommodated me by letting me sit in front of class and because my outload reading skills where poor did not call on me to read aloud. Interestingly, I seemed to be able to hold things close to my eyes and comprehend the text I saw silently. Because I passed all written tests and my classes with satisfactory grades, they gave me. OK grades and passed me. My shining moments during my grade school years came in my achievement as a Boy Scout. I attained the rank of Eagle Scout with a Bronze Palm and was selected for all three steps in the Order of the Arrow. I also was the senior patrol leader for our troop. My years at Bishop Luers High School, a co-institutional Catholic school, were another matter. I succeeded from the start, earning high honors grades and selection as president of both the Junior and Senior National Honor Societies. I was a member of the yearbook staff and was given a leading part in the senior play. Although I am sure a number of the girls in my class had the higher grades, due to the non-mixing of most classes, class rankings were separated. So, I was 3rd in my class. of about 150 boys. I was also awarded the Indiana State Catholic Youth Leadership Award by the Knights of Columbus. I still had not been given information on my actual visual status nor information about assistive aides for the blind. Everything I did was by holding written materials close to my face, listening very attentively and not driving. I took the SAT and other tests such as an engineering aptitude test, I wanted to be like my father, an electrical engineer. I scored adequately on the SAT and highly on the aptitude test. I applied to four mid-western colleges and was accepted in all and chose to attend the University of Notre Dame in south Bend, Indiana, which I thought would be fairly near home. The summer after high school, I was an exchange student to France, where I lived with a French family for seven weeks and my counterpart lived with our family for seven. It was a great experience, but while in France, I learned my father had taken a job in Philadelphia. On my return, together with my family and my French counterpart, Francise, we moved to Strafford, PA, outside of Philadelphia. The move took me to a new part of the country and my summers in Philly were full of excitement with the exploration of a big city and learning about the Jersey Shore. During those summers, I worked for General Electric as an engineering aide. College went very well too. Nort Dame was a good experience. It was competitive but their Electrical Engineering Department was staffed with excellent professors who helped me through every step, but not as a person with a visual disability because I rarely mentioned it to anyone. Honestly, I am not sure why, but I tried to be as normal seeming as possible. I learned to take notes from verbal descriptions of what was being written on the blackboard and if a professor did not verbalize the writing, I asked him to do so, and he did. If I missed something, I left a blank in my notebook and obtained the missing information from a friend. I completed all my course work and had a 3.5 grade average at graduation and was selected to the Eta-Kappa-Nu honorary Electrical Engineering Fraternity. ND won the football national championship my sophomore year and that was a real highlight. During my senior year, it became obvious that due to a crash in the space program, jobs would be hard to find. I decided to go to graduate school and took the GRE and GMAT, again with no assistive help. One path I investigated was to get an MBA, and I had also heard from a friend, about Ocean Engineering. My advisor suggested I stay in engineer, because he felt my talents were best suited for it. Although I applied to several MBA programs, I also applied to the University of Miami in Ocean Engineering (OE). In addition to the advice I received to stay in engineering, it is possible the choice of Miami was because my brother was a sophomore there. I was accepted and given money at Miami, and the next year started my graduate studies in OE. Two years flew by during which I was married to my first wife Judi and I left Miami with an MS in OE. One course of suey in OE is underwater sound. It is focused on SONAR and is quite mathematical, just what an electrical engineer likes. During the summer of those two years, I was married to my first wife, Judi. The job market was still tight, but I interviewed and was hired into the Sound and Vibration group at the Electric Boat Division of General Dynamics (GDEB) due to my studies in underwater sound. Once in Connecticut, I found a very good ophthalmologist, Dr. Kaplan, and for the very first time, was told I was legally blind and what that meant. We had some long discussions after which he voiced some displeasure on how little information I had been given on my situation. He said he had to register me with the state and set me up with a low vision specialist. Those steps led me to getting a Closed-Circuit TV (CCTV) magnifier and access to the Library for the Blind and Physically Handicapped (LBPH) and their Talking Book program. Both the CCTV and Talking Books opened my world to general reading and technical literature which I generally avoided due to the increasing strain of both the MD and the onset of myopia or age reeled eye changes. During seven years at GDEB I moved from engineer to supervisor and had the opportunity to earn a second master's degree in systems management (MSSM) from the University of Southern California's continuing education program offered at many military installations. For me it was at the submarine base in Groton CT. My wife and I bought a house and had our daughter, Laura. In 1978, my boss at EB opened an opportunity for me by interacting with associates at Bolt Beranek and Newman Inc. (bbn), at the time, the foremost acoustics firm in the world. He opened a local, New London, CT, office of the firm and hired three of us to staff it. We continued working for the Navy, but as consultants. I stayed with bbn for twenty years and participated in many projects around the world. For the last ten years I was manager of a group of about 40 engineers and scientists, many ay of whom had Ph.D. or master's degrees. bbn provided me with several CCTVs and a Xerox/Kurz well scanner-reader. bbn was an early adopter of Ap-le Macintosh computers. One of my associates immediately found that all Mac's had magnification and text to speech features. This opened the computing world to me. (I had been able to deal with punch cards, but the computer screen with small letter left me out.) During these years, I was able to travel to Hawaii, Japan, and many cities in the US. My LBPH recorded books were constant companions. During this time, my daughter Laura was married and gave us a grandchild, Chloe. Throughout my working life, I have had the opportunity to give something back to several communities. I was on the advisory board for the Connecticut Stat Library for the Blind, on the Board of directors for CHRIS Radio, and on the Board of Directors for the Waterford Education Foundation I was president of a a Macular Support Group in Waterford, CT and am now on the Board of Directors for the Southeastern Connecticut Center of the Blind, where I conduct a support group for those with Macular on how to use digital technology. Shifts in the Department of Defense (DOD) business world produced some big layoffs at bbn. Thus, in 2000, I was searching for a job and with the help of a friend, connected with a group at the Boeing Company that worked in the undersea world, as opposed to most of the company which did airborne things. They were looking for someone who lived on the east coast who had a background like their work. The group was in Anaheim, CA, and then in Huntington Beach, CA. I fit the profile and after an interview was offered a. job as an off-site Technical Representative. Since I had no other solid offers, I accepted feeling the job would last at least a few years. The relationship lasted over 20 and provided a very rewarding end to my career. Boeing, like bbn was totally accommodating to my assistive needs. Although they computer usage was based on Windows PC's s, they provided me with special software which was now available on those platforms and with CCTV equipment as I needed. Someone was always available to assist in getting special software up and running. By the time I started with Boeing, LBPH cassette readers were small and made traveling with them quite easy. I also had a laptop with screen magnifier'/reader software and internet connectivity anywhere I needed ii. While at Boeing, family matters took some good and bad turns. My daughter and her husband had my second grandchild, Evan. The bad part is my long-time wife and partner, Judi, died of cancer. After the grieving time, where things seemed s unsteady. it all turned around, when I met and married my current wife, Karen. I am again on firm footing and life has not been better. As I grew nearer retirement and brought up the subject with my supervisor, she had other ideas. She wanted me to keep working, however, I was able to reduce my work week to four and then three days. Finally, when I found a good replacement, she agreed to let me go. I had to stay in a two day a week consulting role for a year or so. I worked for Triad Systems Inc., a firm that provided part time support to aerospace firms on the west coast. On the home front , life proceeded without mishap. I am now fully retired and working as a volunteer for the southeastern Connecticut Center of the Blind. God things have again arrived as Karen's daughter, Kate, and her husband brought us another grandchild, Esme. Although most of the events above were very good, I am now happy in retirement and ready to do what I can to support others and to enjoy my family. Ways to connect with Mike: mjcoughl@aol.com About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app. Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes **Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i  capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. **Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Well, hello, once again. I'm Mike Hingson. Your host Welcome to unstoppable mindset. And today we get to interview Michael Coughlin. Who's Michael Coghlan? Well, that's what we're going to find out in the course of the day. But I'm going to start a little bit different Lee than I have in the past. Let me tell you how I met Michael. He wrote me an email a few months ago, and talked about the fact that he read my book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man's guide dog in the triumphant trust. And we had discussions about that Michael happens to be a person who was blind. And he talked about his engineering background and other such things. And me being a person with a physics background and also in sales, but also doing a lot of engineering and tech stuff. It just seemed like the thing to do was to have Michael come on to the podcast. So we can find out all the scandalous and non scandalous things that we want to know about him. And just give us a chance to dialogue. And I thought it'd be kind of fun if all of you get to hear it. And that's how we, we discovered each other, we finally were able to get a time where we could get together and chat. So here we are. And Michael, welcome to unstoppable mindset. **Michael Coughlin ** 02:34 Thank you. I'm glad to be here. **Michael Hingson ** 02:37 Well, we'll really appreciate you being here. Why don't we start by you may be talking about the the younger early, Michael and tell us a little bit about you. And we'll go from there. Sure. **Michael Coughlin ** 02:48 And as you said, I had emailed you because of reading the book, which was powerful. There were in addition to my low vision blindness, were a few other parallels that caught my eye and maybe we'll cover those as we go through this feel free start. I was born in Fort Wayne, Indiana, another midwesterner and I was born on a farm, as was my brother. My mother and father were New Yorkers at birth, and in their early years, they moved to Indiana, because my father was an engineer working for General Electric, and he was transferred to Fort Wayne. When they arrived in Fort Wayne, they decided to look at the Midwest, there's different sets of eyes and they rented a farmhouse on a 40 acre farm. And my father even became a hunter and raised a large garden and it was something pretty adventurous for a New York kid. But they were loving it. And I grew up for the first five years of my life on that farm, exposed a farm animals farm equipment. And I think at that time, I had been wanting to be a farmer. But quickly, they moved me into the city because of the school system. My mother had been a was a school teacher by trade and that taught in a rural schools and they felt the city schools would just be stronger. So at five years old, we moved in to Fort Wayne, and I started school at St. John the Baptist Catholic school and began my early years. In second grade. When they were doing I skipped screening for students. They immediately picked up on the fact that I couldn't see very well. And it was a bit of a shock to everybody I was getting by okay, but my parents were told that I had high problems and they immediately contacted a friend who was not the mala just to look at me, sent me to quote the best ophthalmologist in the city and I started going to him, he examined me and examined me and sent me to the University of Indiana Medical Center. And they all pretty quickly decided that I had macular degeneration. As a juvenile, um, it's very unusual in those days to come up with juvenile macular degeneration. **Michael Hingson ** 05:21 So What year was this? This would **Michael Coughlin ** 05:24 have been about 1953 or 54. Yeah. So, I mean, I was in second grade. And I was obviously starting to have visual difficulties. One of the things I didn't do very well was read aloud, because I was having trouble seeing the print even though I held it close I, I just never could read things out loud. But the school accommodated that well enough. They sat me in front of the class, when the work was going around, and each kid was asked to read a paragraph, they just skipped me. However, I was able to hold things close, read silently, figure out what was on the page, do my homework, pass my tests, and get reasonably good grades, I was probably an average to a little better than average student. So as I progressed, through grammar school, I was just given a little leeway on reading out loud, and everything else seemed to work fine. So they said average student, but if I had something to brag about in those years, it was my Boy Scout work. We had a wonderful Troop at my school. And in the years that I was a boy scout, I earned the rank of Eagle Scout with a bronze POM. I was awarded all three steps in the Order of the Arrow. And by eighth grade, was the senior patrol leader for our troop. Though I had managed through scouting, to excel in something, and then I moved on to high school. At this point, of course, I'd gone through all through grammar school, I'd been seeing ophthalmologists, I knew I had macular degeneration. But I had not been given one piece of information regarding assistive technology, such as talking books, large print, learning Braille, or anything else. I can only attribute that to the fact that I kind of saw things. I didn't run into anything, because I did have a low vision, but I could see. And so they just treated me like everybody else. And just acted like everybody else as best I could. When I got in high school. And I went yeah, go ahead. No, go ahead. Alright, went to Bishop lures High School, called institutional Catholic High School where the boys were sort of separated from the girls in most classes, because that's what was done in those days. I really got it, my grades markedly improved. I made high honors or honors at every grade point, every grade session all the way through high school. I was elected president of the Junior National Honor Society and the senior national honor society. I was in senior play with the lead one of the lead roles. I was on a yearbook staff. I just participated in everything I could, and the only thing I could not do was drive. And I had a lot of friends. And back then, at 16, not only could you drive, you could drive with a friend. So I was always able to get rides, and I just went right through high school. Still not using anything in the way of assistive technology, assistive technology. But I prospered. And at the end of my senior year, I was awarded the Catholic, the Catholic Leadership Award for the state of Indiana by the Knights of Columbus. And I decided that it was time to think about college. So there I was, and I was starting to fill that application. And so I took the graduate or the SATs test, it took another test in engineering aptitude. I scored reasonably well on the LSAT, again, with no help, no large print, no extra time holding it close. But I got through it did pretty well on that engineering aptitude test applied to four colleges in the Midwest and were accepted to all of them. I think a lot because my high school teachers liked me and gave me good recommendations. Anyway I have the four selected the University of Notre Dame, which was a good school, good Catholic school, had electrical engineering, which was where I had applied to get in and was ready to head off to college. My senior year at the end of my senior year, in high school, my parents, I was an exchange student in France, where I went there for seven weeks and lived to the French family. The correspondent, French student, Francis came back in the US for seven weeks. And right in the middle of that, my father took a job in Philadelphia, and we moved to Philadelphia. So I was transplanted into the east coast into a big city, and had a whole nother set of experiences that were great. I enjoyed it, I explored that city for the four years I was in college, even though I went back to Notre Dame, went to the Jersey Shore and saw what that was about. And went off to college, where they put me on an airplane in Philadelphia, I flew out and began my career at Notre Dame in electrical engineering, again, doing everything everybody else did, I didn't go out of my way to tell people that I couldn't see very well, I just played the role of a student. And for four years, managed to get by with pretty good grades, I had a 3.5 GPA at the end of my four years. And I had a degree in electrical engineering, and was ready to move on again to the next stage in life when the space program collapsed, and engineering jobs virtually disappeared. And so I said, Well, maybe grad school would be something one might think about for a little while longer. And I started looking into MBA programs, which I don't know we're getting popular. But my one of my engineering advisors suggests that I might want to stay in engineering because he thought I was a good engineer. I had done well in all my classes, all my labs, working with computers. So I thought about it. And somebody mentioned that there was a kind of a new field opening up called Ocean Engineering. And at the University of Miami had a program. While at the time my brother is a sophomore at Miami. And it seemed like wow, wouldn't it be kind of interesting to put out there and maybe room with my brother and, and whatever. And so I applied in ocean engineering, as well as a few MBA programs. I was accepted to Miami, they gave me money to go to school, paid my tuition gave me a stipend. And so I went, I went off to the University of Miami for a to attain that graduate degree, which I did in two years. In the middle of those two years, married my first wife, Judy, we moved she moved down to Florida. And there we were, for a couple years earning a graduate degree in ocean engineering. One of the curricula within ocean engineering is underwater acoustics. And that was very interesting to me because it was pretty mathematical. And guy double E's love math. And so I spent my courses in acoustics. And when some job interviews on campus came around, one of the companies looking for people with odd degrees were was electric boat Division of General Dynamics, because noise and submarines go together, or at least the lack of noise. They want you to be quiet. Yeah. So they gave me a job offer. And I took it, and we moved to Connecticut. And the came up here and one of the things I did during that first year, besides getting started with my job was to find an ophthalmologist because since I didn't see very well and I didn't want it to get too much worse. It was probably a good idea. And I found a fella Dr. Kaplan in Mystic and got an appointment and walked in and for the first time in my life had been I was told I was legally blind. I had no idea what that meant. And I was surprised because up until that point, I was getting by. I was enjoying what I was doing. I wasn't failing in anything, and like seem good. But anyway, he gave me a good overview on it. He said yeah, he was pretty disappointed. At the fact that I had been involved in everything to that point and never been told I was legally blind, nor had been told that there was any assistive technologies available to make it easier for me. So wait, you're mistaken. That would have been 1971. **Michael Coughlin ** 15:19 Okay. He did a few things, he registered me with the state of Connecticut. They actually have people in the state that come out and try to help you with things. He, they then sign me up for the Library for the Blind and Physically Handicapped. They stay State Library. And, lo and behold, they provided me with a talking book reader and talking books. For the first time ever, I was able to listen to books. All the ones I wanted, anything I wanted, was there available to me. And it was eye opening at that point. i From that time on, even though the device they had for as a player was pretty bulky. I carried that around everywhere. I went and was always listening to books, in addition, **Michael Hingson ** 16:11 is that records or cassettes? That **Michael Coughlin ** 16:15 at that point, they were both that's and I got records. Okay. They gave me a record player. Mostly those were the periodicals on what were then throwaway discs and, and the cassette, but I had to carry a second briefcase anywhere I went to bring that recorder because it was pretty big beast. Yes, **Michael Hingson ** 16:36 I remember those ranking was a General Electric manufacturing machine might **Michael Coughlin ** 16:42 have been but it was a great believe me went from nothing to that it **Michael Hingson ** 16:46 was large, but still Yeah. **Michael Coughlin ** 16:50 In addition, through Kaplan, I met another low vision specialist. And what he showed me was a closed circuit TV magnifier. And at that time, that beast was bigger than the tape recorder, believe me, oh, yes, full size, black and white television with a separate camera. But all of a sudden, I could see things I couldn't see because there were magnified. And so instantly, on arrival in Connecticut or close to it. I had two pieces of technology that just opened up the world. And it allowed me through that CCTV to get a second master's degree in systems management from University of Southern California. They ran that program on military bases. And they gave it I went to the submarine base in Groton and took that for two years and earned a master's second master's, I had access to closed circuit television for that I had my library books on or talking books on tape, and I was pretty happy in my career at General Dynamics was going well. I went, I went from an engineer, through senior to specialist and was an engineering supervisor in about seven years. And anyway, so we were good, but my boss at the time was struggling a bit with his advancement in life. And we had been doing a lot of work underwater acoustics on submarines with with a consulting firm that worked for the Navy called Bolt Beranek and Newman while the BBN was a diverse company, because not only were they the leading acoustics company in the world, but they also had some people that were working on something through DARPA called the ARPANET. So here we go, he gets an offer to start a local, then in New London, which is across the river from Groton, a local office of BBN recruits myself and a couple of other engineers and I am now a consultant working for the Navy Department. At that point in time, BBN was extremely interested in helping me out. So they provided me with a closed circuit was actually a portable closed circuit TV magnifier as well as the desktop version. And a few years later, I Xerox kurz wild text to speech reader. So now I had a little more technology that I could use to get printed books into text format, or speech format. And soon thereafter, one of my good friends who I still play golf with Doug Hannah, came across the fact that a Macintosh computer could magnify the screen and had text to speech. And that was from the all Most of the beginning of the Mac, those features were built into their operating system. Did **Michael Hingson ** 20:06 you ever get to spend much time up at BBN in Cambridge? **Michael Coughlin ** 20:10 Oh, yes. Lots of time at BBN in Cambridge. **Michael Hingson ** 20:14 Did you ever get to meet a guy up there named Dick Durbin sign? **Michael Coughlin ** 20:19 No, but I'll bet he was in a speech synthesis group. **Michael Hingson ** 20:24 I don't know that. He was there. He, he and I went to UC Irvine together. And I actually saw him. I actually saw him at BBN later, and we worked on some projects together, but I suppose there's a large place. So it **Michael Coughlin ** 20:41 was it was large and, and for the most part, my work was done with the acoustic side of things. Although as the internet grew, the computer side of BBN, when I started was about 5050 grew huge and dominated the company and, and all. I mean, they were very early adopters in, in speech recognition, right? They had a voice recognition or a voice sort of dialer feature in their phones from years before they were they were very much into that sort of thing. I **Michael Hingson ** 21:20 remember once when I visited BBN, he Dick told me about a transducer they had that actually would simulate the sound of a jet engine. I believe that yes, he said it was like the size of an ashtray that like the typical floor ashtray in a hotel but he said you didn't want to be anywhere near it when they fired it up because it really was just like a jet engine and it had all the the audio capabilities and all the features. So it really sounded like a jet engine. So you didn't want to be anywhere near Munich fire to an **Michael Coughlin ** 21:57 an aircraft acoustics was a huge part of the work that was done there. And air airport acoustics and they were just in a lot of acoustics but our little group was in submarine acoustics and, and kept us busy. Working at BBN was great in that they were a Mac House, everybody used maps. They put a Macintosh on my desk. It had the ability to magnify what I wanted to see and do text to speech. Even though it's a bit cumbersome, in that you had to copy things paste and whatever. But But I got good at that. I was able to use that computer to do word I could do Excel spreadsheets. I could do graph view graphs. I could do program planning, you name it. All of a sudden the world of the PC was opened to me, thanks to the Mac. And my career at BBN span 20 years. It was it was a great place. They were very early adopters in a lot of technology exposed to a lot of it early emails. They were one of the first companies to to use email. In fact, the fella that put the at sign in email name worked at BBN Ray Tomlinson, so that that was the place but after 20 years, because they were a true consulting firm and fairly expensive rates. And the government was competing on a cost basis. And so eventually I was in a situation where I was looking for a job. And friend of mine at BBN suggested a fella he knew at Boeing might want to buy mica job. And that led to a situation where they their group who was doing work and underwater vehicles, were located on the west coast, wanted somebody on the East Coast who did similar work. And so I was hired as a tech rep, where I would represent the group on the west coast, but I would interact with their Prime customers on the East Coast, one of whom was General Dynamics electric boat, and so my location in Groton was, was great. So what I thought would be about a four three or four year experiment with Boeing ended up as a 20 plus year career with Boeing. And I, they too, were a great employer. They provided me with up to date, closed circuit TVs, they made sure that I my laptop had the best software it turned out by that time. In the PC world. There were software there were things like Jaws and zoom texts. And so I they had Zoom Text on my machine. I was stopped into the internet anywhere I went. And I had closed circuit TVs, both at their facility in California and at my house. And by that time, you could put the library of the blind cassettes into Walkman size machines. So it was easy to carry that along on my travels. And for what was what 20 plus years I had a great career with them as as a tech rep. I was no longer now you had mentioned sales. My father and brother are sales people he was a sales engineer, my brother was a salesman and so is light all his career. My case not so much being in Myers Brigg ISTJ, which stands for introvert a bit. Sales was always a pressure job to me. And as a manager, by that time at BBN have have managed managed the Department of 40 engineers and scientists, the whole job was get more work sales. That was a pressure position for me, when I switched to BBN and I was nothing but a an engineer in the field with no sales pressure and work at all times. I loved it just lower pay less pressure, but I prospered. i I'm sure I was a huge help to them. Because every year my contract or the thought of me coming on for another year came up. Different supervisors wanted me and I just stayed in I was there for over 20 years. And it was it was kind of career where I was traveling a lot. And I enjoyed traveling. And I could get by in airports with little monoculars and asking questions and remembering the Airport layout. So I didn't get lost. And I just got by. Great. And as that careers continued through 20 plus years, and I was getting older, the subject of retirement began to crop in. I talked to my supervisor, you know, I'm at an age where retirement is something I might want to think about. Nope, nope. Well, I went from five day weeks to 40 weeks to three day weeks always saying I want to get out now. And finally they said, Well, if you can find a replacement, then we'll talk about it. So I was fortunate and able to find somebody I thought was good at it as today. And so then they put me on as a consultant for another year and a half on Tuesday weeks. And finally I was able to retire. What year was that? He retired? Yes. And that's where I am today. **Michael Hingson ** 27:42 But what year did you retire? **Michael Coughlin ** 27:45 Okay. During my time at Boeing, which I thought the career itself was fantastic. There were some times good and bad. I, my, my daughter and her husband gave us two grandchildren, Chloe and Evan. However, after many, many years, my first wife Judy succumbed to cancer. And that was tough. And when you are seeing some of that now, I'm sure, but in any case, after that, there's some low points and whatever I met Karen, my current wife, we, we went out for a few years and eventually we're married and, and everything has just turned back around the way it was. I'm happy. I'm retired. Her daughter has given us a grandchild ESMI who's now two and a half, almost three. And we are enjoying life. **Michael Hingson ** 28:42 So how long have you guys been married? **Michael Coughlin ** 28:45 This will be it was just 10 years we were we were married in 2012. Newlyweds? **Michael Hingson ** 28:50 Almost. Yeah. Well, I'm curious. What. So you, you clearly had a rich life you'd have the life that you enjoyed. But what do you think about the fact that early on? They did not that that no one the ophthalmologists and others didn't give you any access to assistive technology didn't give you more access to understanding about blindness and so on. And I don't ask that to say what a horrible thing but rather just what do you think about it? Now looking back on hindsight is always a wonderful thing. Looking back, **Michael Coughlin ** 29:34 I almost angry. At the time, I thought everything was fine. But when you look back, I believe. Number one, I think a lot of eye doctors are great if they can help you but if they can't help you, they tend to push you off to the side. And I think that was a little of it. And it maybe was just the fact that in the URL The days even though I had macular and I couldn't see printed and everything I saw well enough to get by. And I'm just thinking they figured, well, he's doing okay, whatever they should have done way more. And maybe even my parents should have done more. But But I don't I even looking back feel that in some sense the fact that I had to hold things up here to read was almost embarrassing to them, they they didn't grasp the concept of a young person not saying well, it just didn't grasp it. And unfortunately, since we were in the middle of Indiana, and there really weren't Apparently, people with very much knowledge of the subject. It just happened. And I just hope today, that way more attention is paid to people, the few juveniles that are limited sight, because I'm sure I could have had a fuller experience in life, if I at least had been exposed to talking books at a younger age. **Michael Hingson ** 31:14 Here are a lot of us who believe that it is so unfortunate that more of us also did not get the opportunity to learn braille, because right is outcomes, the basic means of reading and writing. **Michael Coughlin ** 31:30 I understand I agree completely. And so here I am having to sit here with my closed circuit TV, off to the right with about 40 power magnification in order to be able to see my notes, hey, I have a fellow in our, at the center of the blind Kevin, who is a braille reader and, and he's totally blind, but he has the Braille and he can sit at a meeting and read what he needs by reading it in Braille, when I'm at those meetings, I can't read anything. You can't, I cannot see any print, I just always have to rely on what I hear or ask questions. **Michael Hingson ** 32:13 So you're seeing reality, the advantage that we had was being blind people than if we do read braille, and so on, for not the advantages that we can look at meetings from a different perspective, which I love to talk about which, namely, is, if people are doing meetings truly the right way, they would provide everyone the information in advance of the meeting, so that people could read this stuff with the idea, then you can prepare and then you go to the meeting, and you can discuss it rather than spending half the meeting reading the information. Yep, well, they **Michael Coughlin ** 32:50 do that fortunately, times. Case of the center, I gather all of the information they're going to pass out as Word documents earlier, and I do go through them. **Michael Hingson ** 33:02 But what I'm saying is they should really do that for everyone, rather than passing out information at the meeting. People should get it in advance so that nobody has to read it at the meeting, rather use the meeting to be more efficient. So that's a lesson we could teach them which, which a lot of people really haven't caught on to yet understood. It does make life a little bit of a challenge. But I'm glad that that your your work at the Center will tell me a little bit about your work at the center and how you got involved in what the center is all about. **Michael Coughlin ** 33:34 Right? Well, it's my second time involved being involved with the center of the Blind in New London. First, the first interaction came about in in probably the late mid mid to late 90s, when we had a macular degeneration support group in Waterford, that that was started by a fellow's a friend Duncan Smith since passed. And, and I ended up as president of the group. And it was it was a pretty active group for about 10 years. And we brought people in that had macular and tried to provide him with information. And as part of that the center of the blind was one of the participants and their lead person helped us get speakers and so there's sort of a three to four person group as the lead and and that center lead person was one of those. I can tell you what her name was, but I forgotten it is too many years ago. So when I retired and I'm trying to think of giving back and doing things that what what can I do also I should have mentioned that not only they work with a senator I also at one point in time was a reader On the advisory group for the State Library for the Blind and Physically Handicapped, where I'd attend meetings and from a reader point of view, try to help them with their services. And I was on the board of directors for Chris radio, which is a radio service that reads newspapers and periodicals to people. So I've done a few of those kinds of things as well. But now I'm retired, I say, I want to be able to give back to some degree and, and so I thought of the Senator and gave them a call. They looked up their webpage, and there's a phone number I gave a call, talk to the Executive Director, Wendy Lusk. And she said, we'd love to have you come down and talk so. So I did, Karen and I went down. And we sat and talked to Wendy and, and Tammy, the assistant and said, well, might I be able to do. And after a little discussion, the concept of a support group for macular degeneration came up. And they didn't have such a thing. And they thought that would be a worthwhile project that they should put into their calendar. And that's what we've done. So I, every first Wednesday of the month, get together with others who are interested in. And the primary focus is learning how to use cell phones, because the new cell phones or smartphones and iPhones and also that others are pretty hard for people who are beginning to lose their sight. And they don't have an understanding of some of the assistive aids that are in the phone. So that's what we do. We spend a couple hours just answering questions and presenting information that I pick up over the web on things their smartphone can do for them. And as as that went and started gaining traction, Wendy asked me if I wanted to be on the board. And I said I'd be glad to do that and was elected to the board a couple of months back. So I'm on the board of directors as well as running that support group. **Michael Hingson ** 37:17 Do you think that let's deal with the pathological world? Do you think that attitudes have changed very much in terms of how I doctors handled blindness and blind people today over, say 40 years ago? **Michael Coughlin ** 37:35 Well, a little better. I mean, I have a fella now Dr. Parker I've been seeing for when, when Kaplan sold his practice, Dr. Parker took it over, I go to see him. He, he tries to keep me appraised of any new emerging things in the way of AI specialists, and what they may be doing for people with low vision. But, but they're more on the scientific side, and he really doesn't have any, any of the low vision aids, you have to go to a separate guy for that. And I've gone through those things so many times. That? I don't know, right? I would say better, but not great. Yeah, **Michael Hingson ** 38:29 what, what I have found and having significant conversations with people is that still all too often, if you go to an ophthalmologist, and it's discovered that for whatever reason, you're losing eyesight, and they can't do anything about it. They consider it a failure. And they just walk out sorry, there's nothing we can do and that we haven't seen enough of an awareness raising in the eye care world, where people recognize that just because you can't see it's not the end of the world and you can still be just as productive as you otherwise might have been accepted when you use different techniques. And, and a lot of state rehabilitation agencies are somewhat in the same sort of boat, they don't really ultimately do the things that they could do to better prepare people for having a positive attitude about blindness when they're losing their son. **Michael Coughlin ** 39:31 Yeah, I think that's true, although Connecticut, their agency is called WSB. The Bureau for the education of the blind and and they're pretty good. I just actually had a SB fella come to my house to give me a how do you use a cane training? I've never used a cane. And it's part part of our macular sport group. Discussion. One of the fellas in They're mentioned the, what he called his ID cane. And that was a term I'd never heard him. And what do you mean by that? And he said, Well, he said, because he has macular like me, said, I still see well enough to get around. But I'm tired of explaining to people they don't see very well. And so I got an I A cane, white cane, which you're legally able to use. And he said, the one I have is a little shorter, because I don't really need it as two more people with less vision. And it helps people understand that I don't see very well **Michael Hingson ** 40:37 in the answers. And the answer is even with an ID cane, that works until it doesn't. I know, I know, a guy who lived in I think it was Mount Laurel, New Jersey, and will take the train to Philadelphia every day, when he was losing his eyesight and the New Jersey Commission gave him a cane. But they also continued to emphasize eyesight a lot. And they didn't really convey to him the true importance of learning to use a cane as he's losing his eyesight. So one day, he was walking along the side of the New Jersey Transit train to go into the car to find a seat and involved process to Philadelphia. And key he turned in where the where he saw the openings for the car, and promptly fell between two cars. And then the train started to move and they got stopped and got him out. If he had been using his cane that would never have happened. And he became an avid cane user after that. Right. **Michael Coughlin ** 41:48 Great. And I completely understand that. And and I'm using it more and more. No doubt. **Michael Hingson ** 41:56 Yeah, there's and the problem is that people just all too often think it's a horrible thing and makes you look weird. Well, you know, there are a lot of things that all sorts of people use that make them look different than other people, that doesn't mean that they're less people. **Michael Coughlin ** 42:12 I actually had an experience a while back, which made the use of the cane even more, it highlighted it a little more is a number we were going back and forth to the Caribbean for a few years at on vacation at the Sandals Resort, and we got to the airport in Antigua getting ready to fly home. And since I don't see very well, I always will go up to the attendant at the ticket counter and say, you know, I'm visually disabled, can't see I really need early boarding we could cause legs, feet and other things trip me and I I'd like to get into a seat before the crowd arrives. And the first thing she did is looked at me and said, You're not blind, you know. And, and I was stunned. But but said yes, I am I cannot see. And they let me show. All right. All right. So after that in airports, I started at least wearing dark glasses. That helped a little bit with a cane. It's even at least then you have a claim to your claim, having to pull out the piece of paper from the state that says I'm legally blind. I have one of those, but that's kind of going a little too far. So I do find it a little bit more helpful. **Michael Hingson ** 43:39 Well, of course, what you discovered, the more you use a cane is the better traveler you are. And that helps you get around. Yes. Now as you know, I happen to use a guide dog. In fact, I didn't use either a cane or a guide. Well Mark cane or guide until I was 14 when I got the guideline. I never learned to use a cane until I was 18. But I discovered that I could teach anyone to use a cane in five minutes, but teaching people to have the competence to use a cane takes months because one is just a technique which you can learn easily the other is developing an attitude and developing the true awareness of that you know where you are and what's around you and how to recover from getting lost and and other such things like that along the way. That's a whole different animal entirely. Absolutely. But nevertheless, it's it's doable. So I still mostly use guide dog but there are some times that I'll leave the puppy dog at home or if I'm just stepping out a little bit leave the dog tied down and I'll use a cane but that doesn't happen very often. And certainly when I travel Alamo who is not a current guide dog comes with ready to go so We just returned from a weekend Israel doing work and all that, and he needed fine. And even on the long airplane flight to and from Israel, He did really well. Excellent. You know, it's, it is a matter of learning to use the skills that that we have. That **Michael Coughlin ** 45:19 is That is true. And in my case technology has been my savior. Sure, closer to TVs, the books on tape, and the fact that computers now have text to speech and magnification. Without it without those. I would not have had an engineering career I don't believe. So **Michael Hingson ** 45:44 what do you use to read books today? **Michael Coughlin ** 45:48 I do. I use my iPad. I have the bard application, which is the current app that's put out by the library. handicapper, I think they changed their name recently, but it's the same thing. And so I download books through them, and use the iPad, to read the books to me, I don't have to use a recorder anymore. It's and I can do the same thing on my iPhone. So. **Michael Hingson ** 46:23 So now of course, you have the ability to navigate through those books a whole lot more than you used to. **Michael Coughlin ** 46:28 Yes, because the again, I'm an apple person, but on my iPad, I can magnify the screen very easily. So downloading books is a little cumbersome, but not bad. And then I can pick whatever book I want to listen to and with Bluetooth headphones, or what I air pods or whatever they call them and listen to those without bothering anybody else. **Michael Hingson ** 46:53 Yeah. And again, the other neat thing is that you can skip around in a book, which is something that you couldn't do before, right now with the advantage of the DAISY format and so on you can which is a format, which is kind of an ePub environment. But you can literally skip around the book by chapter or any number of levels. Yep. **Michael Coughlin ** 47:15 And, and not only do I use that app, but I also have downloaded books on audible. Occasionally, if I can't find where I wanted, or, or iBooks it's now called something else. But and so some of the books he can't get it the library right away, you can you can go on and pay for him. And but mostly, it's through the the Library for the Blind. Certainly, that's where I found the underdog. So **Michael Hingson ** 47:45 what do you think overall has been the biggest obstacle you've had to overcome? **Michael Coughlin ** 47:49 If you go back and look, to me, the biggest obstacle was the invent the advent of the PC, and getting to use a PC. When, when I was moving along in my career, and early on, I did a lot of software engineering. But I was back in the earliest days, it was key punches. And all of that I got by then as they started using terminals, but simple terminals, I could have the software printed out, I could use the CCTV to see it, I could make changes to the software and have others enter it. It was everything was slow back then. But when the PC came along, it became an individual tool that everybody used, you had to be able to use it and and as I said it was Doug, Hannah and my good golfing buddy now who, who figured out how to use that with text to speech and magnification. And that just opened up the whole world of the personal computer, which which is today I mean MATLAB and other pieces of software you have to use. It made it available to me, had I not been able to make that jump into the PC world, I think I would have really been hampered on my ability to continue as an engineer or an engineering manager. **Michael Hingson ** 49:20 So you're not too bothered by the fact that there was a time that Bill Gates said that 640 K is all you'd ever need. And we have Emory. **Michael Coughlin ** 49:29 Well, you know, I remember using before Yeah. And I remember when the very first Mac's came out, they only had two floppy drives and no hard drives. So I had **Michael Hingson ** 49:45 a my first computer that I really use it all was Xerox sigma seven. We also had an OS born from my wife even before that, but it had the Xerox had two eight inch floppies no hard drive 64k and What was it? Yeah, you know, but amazing. I **Michael Coughlin ** 50:03 mean, the technology has just moved so fast. And, and the fast moving technology is great. And it's frustrating. Because a lot of the people that develop it's because now they can write software that does everything. The concept and of course you work for a company that that's very attuned to that fact, is that much of the stuff they throw out there now is very hard to use. If you're visually disabled, **Michael Hingson ** 50:34 you'd have visual issues there. The awareness has not grown like it needs to to make sure that all that stuff is inclusive. Absolutely. **Michael Coughlin ** 50:42 And it as fast as the technology is moving it. The accessibility features of software, to me are falling further and further behind. Even though there's more and more people that seemed to work in the field of accessibility. I think they're still not moving fast enough. And it is frustrating I had, I mentioned that one of the other obstacles that are countered, over the years when I was working at Boeing. Computer Training was becoming easy. And everybody had to take seven or eight computers, courses through the year and be qualified in things like obstacle don't leave obstacles and jet engines in called FOD and foreign object detection and on and on. And, and those courses were originally written by the various divisions and by people who got told make a course. And so they might dig up a course making pieces of software, whatever. And when they would finish it and put it out to everybody. Many of them wouldn't work with screen readers. And not only Weren't they work with screen readers, and they didn't redo the text, they'd have little tests you had to pass. And those certainly didn't work for the screen reader. And they were very, very frustrating. And I ran across to fellow at Boeing corporate, who became a friend and his father who had macular and he was really sensitive to that fact. And between the two of us we, we fought tooth and nail to get a standard a corporate standard on for courses put in place that included the fact that you had to be able to access the course with a screen reader took about five years for for that standard to finally be propagated throughout Boeing. And even when they did, I ran across the fire protection course where it wasn't in place. And I couldn't do that test and this. So you have to fight for that stuff. There's no doubt about it. **Michael Hingson ** 52:55 There are times that you do things to draw the line and say, look, you've got to make this inclusive. **Michael Coughlin ** 53:01 Great. Absolutely. It's getting better. I mean, I mean, at least if you stand up and squawk about it, there are people who will listen more than they used to. **Michael Hingson ** 53:13 Yeah, well and I think we're slowly raising awareness and it's a it's a challenge. consumer organizations are helping and we're we're we're now getting people to recognize it more much less that it really is part of the law the Americans with Disabilities Act really is more comprehensive than people want it sometimes to get credit for. And sometimes we have sites where it is still happening. **Michael Coughlin ** 53:40 Oh yeah. And and sometimes it just happens when you don't think about it we had when I was at the Boeing facility in California and they had been California it's always beautiful as you know. And and so stairways for buildings are often outside and inside stairways and we had a nice building and an out big, big wide outside stairway and they came in and put in new a new surface on the top step of the third floor landing so you wouldn't slip and a just as they did it, they covered up that yellow stripe that marked the top step and that next day I almost stepped right off into an clobbered down a flight of stairs, got my supervisor and said hey, help me an appointment and we she took me right over to the safety people within this was in Huntington Beach and today a day later they had a yellow stripe on the top **Michael Hingson ** 54:40 of that step car alternative that is which you didn't really have access to at the time was 30 Days came back. Which is another story of course I agree. But at **Michael Coughlin ** 54:51 that time, I was not. Right. Right. Look for yellow stripes, because I could see that much But anyhow. **Michael Hingson ** 55:02 So what what do you do for extra curricular activities in such out of work like sports and so on? Yeah, **Michael Coughlin ** 55:09 I, I love sports. When I was younger, I could play other few others like I never could be a baseball player with a little ball moving real fast, or a tennis player. But But I did like to play football because I was big enough to be a blocker and part of that team. And I played basketball, because basketball is pretty big. I played that least through college but but I was very fortunate in that my father, as an engineer had a medium kind of income and belonged to we belong to a country club in Fort Wayne. And the golf pro, there was a big advocate of teaching young kids how to play golf. So I started learning golf when I was about eight years old, and have always played golf. It got harder when I couldn't see the golf ball very well. I became eventually became a member of the US blind Golfers Association. I still am a member, they have a well, it was at the time a DVD. Now I think it's an online thing. It's a course for coaches of blind golfers. And they adopted the term coach, but I don't know helper to whatever the sighted person is about the blind golfer. And I show my friends that and, and pretty quickly, they figured out well, let's see, we've got to help him line the ball up in the middle of his clubface and point out where the hole is. And, and then there's these new range finders, the one I have talked. And so I push a button, it says your 180 yards. And so between a friend Nirn learning how to be a coach, and that I'm still an avid golfer, I play that a couple times a week. And if I have a good round, and I play from the senior tees, because I'm definitely senior, I still can once in a while break at which is a very, I think a very good score. And then I love to swim. And we had a swim team at that club and I from about age eight to 15 or something I was into competitive swimming. And now we have a pool and I swim every day in the summer. So **Michael Hingson ** 57:23 So is is Karen a golfer? **Michael Coughlin ** 57:27 No. It was the last week. We thought about that once but it didn't go over too. **Michael Hingson ** 57:33 Well. You try Yeah. Now you have, **Michael Coughlin ** 57:36 of course also love sports on television where I have a big TV and sit close my my passion of course is Notre Dame football. And for the people that see a video, the back screen of my my video is a picture I took of the Notre Dame Stadium football field when I was back at my 50th college reunion. **Michael Hingson ** 58:01 So Oh, go ahead. **Michael Coughlin ** 58:04 Well, I was gonna say they improve the stadium immensely since I was there. And there's a big area up at the top where you they have banquets and and you entertain and and so our class that was where we had our 50th anniversary dinner. And so he couldn't be looking over the stadium and I took a picture and put it in my Zoom background. So so they **Michael Hingson ** 58:28 still talk to you. They still talk to you even though you've got some advanced degree work from USC, and Miami and Miami, USC even more than Miami. But yeah, **Michael Coughlin ** 58:40 well there was a time Miami and Notre Dame went like that. Now it's not but USC Of course. And I tell people that but I I have never had bad vibes over the fact I have advanced degrees from **Michael Hingson ** 58:55 C See, I love to tell the story that when my wife and I got married, the church didn't fill up until 12 minutes after the wedding was supposed to start, I suppose started for and and for 12 crowds came in and Only later did we learned that everyone was still sitting out in your pliers waiting for the end of the USC Notre Dame game. Of course. Again, I want to point out that my wife, of course, is an SE grad she did her master's work there. And of course I have to point out that we won, which proves that God was really on our side that day. Just say sometimes, **Michael Coughlin ** 59:30 you know the story of one of the Notre Dame Miami games where they had the great dinner or breakfast before the game and and when they the University of Miami Chaplain got up and said that well, you all know that God is not doesn't take sides in football. And so we'll both pray and see who the better team wins and Lou Holtz, then the coach Scott up and said, Yeah, you're completely right. God is not involved. But his mother is. **Michael Hingson ** 1:00:08 Good answer. Yeah, only Luke could do that. That's the neat thing about good college football rivalries. Absolutely. Always find that. That's **Michael Coughlin ** 1:00:19 kind of my sports, fat, passion for, for television, and then golf and swimming or my dad, **Michael Hingson ** 1:00:26 I grew up listening to the Dodgers. And of course, we're spoiled. We have been Skelly who I still know them. Yes, yes. The best announcer that ever is when was and probably will be in. So I learned baseball from him. There's a lot of fun listening to him. And **Michael Coughlin ** 1:00:43 posters where Claire and I are now. I've been converted. She's from Boston. So we're Red Sox fans. So this weekend, they're playing each other. Well, **Michael Hingson ** 1:00:53 and then in days gone by in basketball. We had Chick Hearn, and of course, Boston had Johnny most. **Michael Coughlin ** 1:00:59 Oh, yes. Oh, yes. **Michael Hingson ** 1:01:03 Johnny is, Johnny was certainly a character. Well, I want to thank you for taking the time to do this today. It was was fun to do. I'm glad that we got a chance to really chat and do

EPISODE 2 SERIES 100: COUNTDOWN WITH KEITH OLBERMANN A-Block (1:44) I misunderstood the first salvo. I completely missed the second. But when the third one exploded yesterday, it finally dawned on me. Trump - using milquetoast seemingly benign surrogates, has already begun to threaten the Supreme Court and especially his three appointees that they had better find in his favor in the "presidential immunity" and 14th Amendment Disqualification cases - or else. Alina Habba delivered a message on Fox yesterday clearly designed for Justices Barrett, Gorsuch, and Kavanaugh, warning them not to try "so hard to look neutral (and) make the wrong call" and that the only "American" verdicts would be those in Trump's favor. This echoed what Maggie Haberman reported last week (and Habba was nice enough to reveal she and Haberman are friends). And it puts in a new light Christina Bobb's boast Tuesday that it doesn't matter even if Trump IS guilty of insurrection: the people will decide who's president. It is muted, but it is a threat of violence and MORE insurrection, being delivered against the Supreme Court. B-Block (16:48) IN SPORTS: ESPN and ABC and Disney have quite the conundrum. Its new supposed savior of the sports network, Pat McAfee, failed to retract, or even apologize for, a statement by football's Aaron Rodgers implying that Jimmy Kimmel was on the Jeffrey Epstein "list." Kimmel already threatened to sue - and that was before the fake screenshots started, and before McAfee said that since Rodgers was only "talking shit" it's not like what he said mattered. Me? I think Kimmel should sue but even better, he should do what Chick Hearn did when he was fed up with his rookie sidekick Al Michaels on the broadcasts of the 1967-68 Los Angeles Lakers. I'll explain. (23:55) THE WORST PERSONS IN THE WORLD: Oh good, we have a SECOND extramarital sex scandal inside the "Moms For Liberty" pro-fascist group. Congressman Troy Nehls reveals the Republicans don't give a damn about whether or not there are a million migrants crossing the border, or none. It's a stunt. And are we sure C-SPAN meant to promote its coverage of the "End of Fist Session" of Congress? C-Block (29:30) THINGS I PROMISED NOT TO TELL: It is now nearly 17 years since a veteran Senator from Delaware asked me to lunch to pick my brain on how when I spoke angrily I seemed righteously indignant, but when he spoke angrily he seemed...angry. I think he's mastered it now - and we need him to be righteously indignant AND angry in the 300 days ahead.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The Lakers came home to the Crypt after a 2-2 road trip to face off against the Rockets as they remember the great one on Chick Hearn night. And with a 23-2 run in the second quarter led by Austin Reaves, the Lakers put it in the after-burners to speed by the Rockets. Tune in as the Lakers Fast Break share thoughts on the game, the upcoming contest on Phoenix, and if Austin Reaves should return to the starting lineup. The Lakers enjoyed their Saturday night and so are we on the Lakers Fast Break podcast! Check out our NEW sponsor Magic Mind! Head on over to MagicMind.com and use the code LAKERS20 when you checkout for 20% off a 15 or 30-bottle order! Please Like, Share, and Subscribe to our channel and our social media @lakersfastbreak on Twitter. Don't forget to watch the Lakers games with us LIVE at playback.tv/lakersfastbreak and our newest Lakers Fast Break merchandise site is now up at https://tinyurl.com/39yb4ta3, check it out! Stop by The Happy Hoarder now through January 1st at https://www.happyhoardercollectibles.com/ and use the code HAPPYHOLIDAYS23 to get an extra 10% off your order! If you have questions, give us a shout-out on Twitter, YouTube, Twitch, Kick, Instagram, TikTok, or Facebook, or send us your thoughts to lakersfastbreak@yahoo.com or become a supporter of the Lakers Fast Break today at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://anchor.fm/lakers-fast-break The views and opinions expressed on the Lakers Fast Break are those of the panelists or guests themselves and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the Lakers Fast Break or its owners. Any content or thoughts provided by our panelists or guests are of their opinion and are not intended to malign any religion, ethnic group, club, organization, company, individual, anyone, or anything. Presented by our friends at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠lakerholics.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠lakersball.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Pop Culture Cosmos⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Inside Sports Fantasy Football⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Vampires and Vitae⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠SynBlades.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YouTube's John Mikaelian⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, the novel Congratulations, You Suck (available at Amazon and Barnes and Noble), ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠The Happy Hoarder⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, EmpireJeffTV, Larry Lakers Dribbling Chat Chat, and ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Retro City Games⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠! --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/lakers-fast-break/message Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/lakers-fast-break/support

Our guest on this episode is Lawrence Eichen. Among other things, he is a self-employed attorney, a speaker, and a coach. While he has been successful he endured internal conflicts he will discuss with us. He has over 25 years courtroom experience dealing with civil and criminal matters. He also is quite skilled at conflict resolution as you will discover. Wait until he tells us about his negotiation formula, E=MC5. We learn that Lawrence became plagued by Imposter Syndrome. He tells us why he came to have this syndrome in his life as well as how he came to overcome it. As he explains, Imposter Syndrome is not a mental disorder, but rather it is truly a phenomenon. He will discuss why he would describe this condition as a rash and he talks about the “ointment” he created to address it. Overall, I very much loved my time with Lawrence. I hope you will find this episode relevant and interesting as well. About the Guest: Lawrence D. Eichen, Esq. (Pronounced “Eye-ken”) Lawrence Eichen is a self-employed Attorney, Professional Speaker, and Coach. He has over 25 years of courtroom experience handling a wide range of civil and criminal matters. Mr. Eichen is also a highly skilled Mediator adept at conflict resolution. Mr. Eichen's litigation and mediation experience led him to develop a winning negotiation formula E=MC5 , which is a proven method to obtain excellent negotiation results. He has resolved well-over 1,000 cases during his career. Lawrence's resultoriented approach to success, stems from his experience inside and outside of the courtroom, including his own journey of self-discovery. Although he had substantial outward success practicing law, internally, Lawrence often found himself experiencing Imposter Syndrome (a phenomenon whereby one fears being exposed as an “Imposter” for not being as competent or qualified as others think). By addressing chronic doubt and rethinking internal messaging, he developed the ability to defeat imposter syndrome. As a result, he became a more confident attorney, a better business owner, and a more peaceful person. He now engages audiences by delivering inspirational speech presentations, which include providing practical advice and techniques on the topics of Mastering the Art of Negotiating and Defeating Imposter Syndrome . In addition, as a certified Rethinking Impostor Syndrome™ coach, he provides individual and group coaching to professionals, executives, and small business owners. Mr. Eichen is a licensed Attorney in New Jersey and a member of the New Jersey State Bar Association, New Jersey Association of Professional Mediators, National Speakers Association; and Association & Society Speakers Community. He is also certified in EFT (Emotional Freedom Techniques) and a member of the Association of EFT Professionals. A lifelong all-around competitive athlete, in his spare time “Ike” (as his sports buddies call him) can be found playing golf, tennis, or ice hockey. Ways to connect with Lawrence: My website is www.FirstClassSpeaking.com LinkedIn profile is ,https://www.linkedin.com/in/lawrenceeichen/. About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app. Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes **Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. **Michael Hingson ** 01:25 Thanks for joining us today, we get to talk to Lawrence Eichen. And he's got a great story. He's an attorney. And we will say away from the lawyer jokes I mostly promise. But but you never know. You know, if you want to tell some you can, Lawrence , I'll leave that to you. But he's got a great story. He's a negotiator. He's a speaker. And we get to talk about a lot of things including imposter syndrome, which is something that I find pretty fascinating to to learn more about. So we'll get to that. But Lawrence, welcome to unstoppable mindset. Thanks for being here. Lawrence Eichen 02:00 Oh, my pleasure, Michael. And I'm really looking forward to our conversation. **Michael Hingson ** 02:04 Well, so let's start. And as I love to ask people to do why don't we start by you maybe just telling us a little bit about you growing up and in all the things that younger Lawrence was? **Lawrence Eichen ** 02:15 Okay. Well, let's see, I grew up, I'm the youngest of four children. So I have three older sisters. I grew up in Rockland County, New York. So um, you know, still feel like a New Yorker more than somebody from New Jersey, even though I've lived in New Jersey probably for over 30 years now. And I grew up, basically, I guess, typical stuff that you did as a kid back then was, you know, you go to school, you come home, you put your books down, and you go outside, and you play sports. And that's really what we did growing up. And I was lucky to grow up in a neighborhood where there was about eight of us. And we played everything, you know, every every day and on the weekends, really, whatever sport, you know, season was, was going on, we did it and we made up our own games like Well, kids do. And basically, you know, that my childhood was, you know, was a little bit stressful at times, because there was some real dysfunction in my family growing up. But, you know, for the most part, I'd say it was a typical, like, you know, middle class, suburban, family upbringing, you know, school and sports was really what I what I did as a kid growing up. **Michael Hingson ** 03:33 As a kid, did you get to spend much time in the city? Did you guys go there very much. Did you go any games or just spend any time in the city? **Lawrence Eichen ** 03:42 No, I really didn't get into the city as a kid, really. Our family didn't do stuff like that. I didn't get into see too many games. You know, I grew up was a Knicks fan, and a Rangers. Rangers fan. I'm still a Rangers fan. Very much these days. I try not to be a Knicks fan. It's hard to watch the Knicks. But actually, they're doing halfway decent this year. And I was a Mets fan. But I didn't really get into too much into the city as a kid growing up at all. So I was really more relegated to the television, watching sports. And just as a family, we never really went into New York City. So it wasn't until later on in my life, you know, more college years and post college years that I took advantage of the city because we were only about you know, 45 minute drive, you know, without traffic. And you can get into New York City, which was you know, a phenomenal experience once I did eventually get into this city. **Michael Hingson ** 04:44 Did you take the train in? **Lawrence Eichen ** 04:47 Often I would take the train in. I actually eventually was working in the city at 1.1 port one port early in my free law career and used to commute by Train into the city, which is not a fun experience for anybody who's a commuter into New York City knows that. **Michael Hingson ** 05:07 Yeah, it can be a challenge. Although I'm amazed that when we lived back in New Jersey, and I would go into the World Trade Center and into the city, I would often meet people who came everyday from Bucks County, a lot of the financial folks and so on would come from Bucks County, Pennsylvania, and they had two hour train trips. And either they had discussion groups or cliques that that communicated and spent all their time on the trains together, or people were in working groups, and they did things on the train. But it was a way of life and they didn't seem to be bothered by two hours on the train each way at all. **Lawrence Eichen ** 05:44 You know, it's funny, you do get into a routine, so I can identify with that, because you become numb to it after a while. And back when I was doing it, and I'm sure a lot of people that you were talking about doing it, you know, there were no, you know, iPhones and iPods and things that are so convenient now to take advantage of listening to a podcast and all this other stuff, you basically read the newspaper, or you read a book. And you did as you say, you know, you get acclimated to it, and I kind of think of it as just becoming numb to it. But looking back, you know, for me, it was sometime when I first commuted in, it was door to door about an hour and 45 minutes. And both ways. And it really does take a toll after a while on you because you realize, you know, you really spending a lot of time and energy commuting. And I didn't have like a group of people that I was commuting in maybe maybe I would have enjoyed it more. I was just like your typical commute or just taking a seat and trying to make the best of it. So for me, I don't miss it at all. I don't miss the commute into the city by train at **Michael Hingson ** 06:59 all. Yeah, I can understand that. I know. For me, it was about an hour and 20 minutes door to door unless there was a train delay. But I took a car from where we lived on trails in court and Westfield to the New Jersey Transit Station, which was part of the Raritan Valley line, then we went into Newark, to the past station then took the PATH train in. So it was broken up a little bit. But for me, again, as you said, iPhones, were starting to exist a little bit, but not a lot. So I really didn't have access to a cell phone a lot when I was traveling into the city. So I did read a lot, and spent a lot of time doing that. And I enjoyed it. But still, it it was a lot of time that you couldn't spend doing other things. But with the fact that for me, it was broken up with a couple of trains that everything else, I guess, you know, I survived it pretty well and can't complain a whole lot. **Lawrence Eichen ** 08:01 You know, you're reminded me I can remember muting in 1986. And the Mets were in the World Series and being on the train. And when I took the New Jersey Transit, there was no Midtown direct from where I was taking it from, you had to go down to Hoboken and then catch the PATH train to the World Trade Center. And I can remember being on those commutes when the Mets were playing. And you could just somebody had a radio, you know, somebody on the commute had a transistor radio. And that would be the only way that you knew what was happening in the game. And like he could almost, you know, overhear those what was going on by somebody else's radio. But it was it was just so interesting. Looking back now how limited access was to immediate information that we take for granted today. You know, there was no Internet, there was no as I said, No iPhones No, none of the stuff that exists today. But you know, like anything else, you just kind of you didn't know what you were missing? Because you were just living it at the moment. **Michael Hingson ** 09:06 Yeah, and of course, the real question is, was that a blessing or a curse? And I'm not convinced. Either way on that because we are so much into information and so much immediate gratification. Is that a good thing? And I think there are challenges with that too. **Lawrence Eichen ** 09:21 Yeah, I would agree with that too. Not to mention, it's very difficult to have a conversation with certainly with younger people that are glued to their phones like 99% of the time. It's like if you get somebody make eye contact with you. It's almost like a moral victory sometimes. So I agree with you that the access to information can you know get out of whack and out of balance and I think there is a real loss certainly in interpersonal communication with people that are just looking at their phones down, you know, they're looking down you see pictures all the time. If you see photos or just the even videos on the internet, you'll see a group of kids, you know, walking home from school together, and there's like 20 kids all walking together. But every single kid is just looking down at their phone, there's no interaction between them, or they're even at a sporting event, right. And you see people like looking at their phones and not even watching the live sporting event that they're at. So **Michael Hingson ** 10:21 go figure. And, you know, for me, I, I like to interact, although when I was traveling into the city, you know, I just had a seat and my guide dog was there. And I read a lot. We weren't part of a group. But if anyone would ever wanted to carry on a conversation, I was glad to do that as well. But I, I'm amazed, and I actually said it to somebody on one of our episodes of unstoppable mindset. I said, I was amazed at how kids in the back of a car would be texting each other rather than carrying on a conversation. And this person said, Well, the reason is, is they don't want their parents to know what they're talking about. Yeah, that itself is scary. You know? **Lawrence Eichen ** 11:06 I can understand that. And it's kind of funny. And texting, you know, look, people text right in the house, right? You take somebody else has downstairs, you know, there was a lot I will say texting, there are some really amazing benefits of texting. There are no it's not, I'm not against technology and the advancement of technology. It's just, you know, in the right place in the right time. It's, **Michael Hingson ** 11:28 it's it's communication. And that's an issue to deal with. Well, so where did you go to college? **Lawrence Eichen ** 11:36 I went to college, SUNY Albany, in the beautiful town of Albany, New York, which is really known for cold winters. So I can still remember walking home from the bars back then, you know, the drinking age back then was 18. So when you went into college, you know, you were it was legal to drink. And the bars would stay open till four in the morning. And I can remember walking home when I lived off campus, you know, at four o'clock in the morning, and literally just the inside of your nose freezing, the mucous lining of your nose would raise on the way home, it was that cold and windy. So yeah, that would I don't miss those cold winters. But College is a whole different store. **Michael Hingson ** 12:25 Well, yeah, there's a lot to be said for college. I've spent time up in Albany, we visited Lockheed Martin up there and some of the military facilities where we sold tape backup products. And I remember being at one facility, and we were talking about security. And the guy we were talking to reach behind him and he pulled this hard disk drive off of a shelf, and there was a hole in it. And I and say said, Let's see this hole. He said, This is how we make sure that people can't read discs, we take discs that have died or that we want to get rid of all the data on and we take them out in the in the back of the building, and we use them for target practice. And the trick is to get the bullet to go through the whole dry. That's funny. Yeah, the things people do for entertainment. I'll tell you, Well, what, what did you do after college? I gather you didn't go straight into law. **Lawrence Eichen ** 13:24 No, I didn't actually I started out as a computer programmer, because my degree was in computer science. So I worked as a programmer for a few years. And then, you know, long story short is made, made some stupid decisions, quit my job when I really shouldn't have and then did some other jobs in the computer field, like selling computer software. But I wasn't very happy doing that. And ultimately, that's when I decided to go back to school full time and go to law school. So I worked for about four years after college before I went back to law school. **Michael Hingson ** 14:07 Why law? **Lawrence Eichen ** 14:10 Hey, hey, I'm still asking myself that question. Why? Well, there you go. No, really, it's one of those things for me it was my one of my older sisters is an attorney. So I think there was that connection to law. And my aunt was a judge in New York In New Jersey also. So there were some family, you know, connections. I probably had some other cousins that were attorneys also but I think I honestly for me, it was like I really didn't know what to do with myself. A friend of mine was studying to take the LSAT, which is the entrance exam to get into law school. And no, I think I just thought to myself, You know what, maybe if I go to law school, I can sort of like salvage my career. I really didn't know what to do with myself. And, um, you know, I came to find out that many people that end up in law school really are ending up there because they don't know what else to do it themselves. I'm not that person that went to law school, like with this dream from childhood to be a lawyer and all that. It was more like, I don't know what else to do. And it was a way for me to rationalize, well, maybe I can do something and still salvage a career. And so I just took the exam with the idea that well, let me see how I do. If I do well on that, you know, then I guess I'll apply. And if I apply, I'll see if I get in. So you know, one thing led to another, I did do well on the exam. And once I did well, on the exam, I was kind of guaranteed to get into law school based on my score on the entrance entry exam. And so I applied to a couple places got in and then you know, that I ended up going to law school. Where did you go, I went to Rutgers law school in New Jersey. And the reason it worked out for me was that by that time, I had moved to New Jersey. And the reason I moved coming and really coming full circle had to do with the commute that I was doing into New York City, which was so long that I had decided, even before I was going into law school, I had decided to move closer down the train line, so it wouldn't take me an hour and 45 minutes to get into the city. So I moved into New Jersey and my commute into the city was like less than an hour at that point. And the fact that I was a resident of New Jersey allowed me to go to records, which was a very good law school, but it was a state school. So you could get a very good tuition, and a good bang for your buck. And so that's why I chose Rutgers. **Michael Hingson ** 16:46 And besides you wanted to root for the Scarlet Knights, right. **Lawrence Eichen ** 16:51 Well, I can't say that I was thinking that at the time I it's funny because I you know, I think of it as like, you know, the devils came into the I think a bit more like the devils came into the New Jersey and started to win and won a Stanley Cup even before the Rangers Did you it was really hard to swallow that pill. And when I mean when the Rangers did, I mean, the Rangers hadn't won a cup and like 50 some odd years, but then the devils come in as an expansion team. And then I think they won three cups before the Rangers finally won a cup in 1994. But I was still even though a New Jersey person. I was still always rooting for New York teams. **Michael Hingson ** 17:31 Well, yeah, and I rooted for the Knights just because they usually were doing so poorly. They needed all the support that they could get. Yeah. And I understood that but one year, they did pretty well. But there they definitely have their challenges. And you mentioned the Knicks. And of course we are are always rooting for the Lakers out here and I'm spoiled i i liked the sports teams. I like for a weird reason. And it's the announcers. I learned baseball from Vince Kelly and the Dodgers. And I still think that Vinnie is the best that ever was in the business of basketball. I learned from Chick Hearn out here because he could describe so well and he really spoke fast. Other people like Johnny most and some of the other announcers in the basketball world, but chick was in a, in a world by him by itself in a lot of ways. And so they they both spoiled me. And then we had Dick Enberg, who did the angels for a while and also did football. So I'm spoiled by announcers, although I do listen to some of the other announcers I listen to occasionally. Bob Euchre, who, you know is still doing baseball, Chris, I got to know him with the miller lite commercials. That was a lot of fun, but still, I'm spoiled by announcers. And so I've I've gotten loyal to some of the teams because of the announcers they've had and learned a lot about the game because the announcers that I kind of like to listen to really would help you learn the game if you spent time listening to them, which was always great. **Lawrence Eichen ** 19:07 Yeah, you've rattled off some real legends of the announcing world. I certainly Dick Enberg you know even in the in the east coast with New York and New Jersey. He got a lot of thick Enver just because he was a national guy, but I grew up really to me. So you say? I think you said Vin Scully. You thought it was the best in the business? To me more of Albert was the best in the business because I grew up with him doing Ranger games doing NIC games. He was the voice of the Knicks and the Rangers right and he was just great. And he you know, his voice is great. And so to me, he was like the the guy you know, everybody always tried to imitate **Michael Hingson ** 19:46 motivate dude. And I remember listening to Marv Albert nationally and he is good and it was a good announcer no question about it. Vinnie was was a different kind of an announcer because one of the things that I really enjoyed about him was when he and originally was Vin Scully and Jerry Daga. And then Jerry died and some other people Don Drysdale for well then partner with me. But when Vinnie was doing a game, he did the first, the second, the fourth, fifth and sixth, the eighth and the ninth innings. And then he was spelled by whoever is his co host was, if you will, but he did all of the announcing it wasn't this constant byplay. So they really focused on the game. And I've always enjoyed that. It's amazing to listen to TV football announcers today, because they're all yammering back and forth and plays can go by before they say anything about the game. **Lawrence Eichen ** 20:42 Yeah, there's a real art to that. And the chemistry for sure, when you get a really good team and a really good broadcaster, actually, what's coming to mind is, I forgot his last name. He just he retired maybe three or four years ago from hockey. He was like the voice of they call them doc. I forgot. I forgot. Yeah, I **Michael Hingson ** 21:00 know who you mean, I don't remember his. **Lawrence Eichen ** 21:02 Yeah, I forgot his name. But when he would do a hockey game, and you notice, I'm always bringing things back to hockey because hockey is like my favorite sport. But when he would do a hockey game, and he would only get him like it was a national game. It was such a difference in the game, because he was the best in the business just the best. When he retired, if, you know, like I said, maybe three, four years ago, I guess it's been it was like a real hole, you know, in the in the, in the announcing business, not that the other guys aren't good also, but he was just so great at it. **Michael Hingson ** 21:39 Yeah, well, they're always those few. And it's pretty amazing. Ah, the fun one has, but even so, there's still nothing like going to a game and I would take a radio when I go to a game or now I probably would use an iPhone and listen to it on some channel, but still listening to the announcer. And also being at the game, there's just nothing like that. **Lawrence Eichen ** 22:05 Oh, yeah, by the way, here's the beauty of technology when we were talking about technology, right? There's never a reason I always say this, there's never a reason for two people to have a conversation where you stop not remembering anything anymore. Right? Because what you know, while you're talking, I'm just Googling who that announcer wasn't It's Doc Emrick. His last name right? It was Mike, Doc Emrick Mike doc being his nickname. And, you know, that's where that's where that's where technology's great, right? Because this is the way you know, usually when I get done playing, I play tennis during the winter. And we after we play, we usually have a beer or sit around. And invariably the conversation turns to sports and you start talking about stuff. And nobody can remember anything, you know, for 9070 or 80. Or 90, you know, it's like who won this, who was the most valuable player? And like, you know, usually you sort of like kinda like say, I know, I can't remember then somebody remembers to look at their phone. And then next thing, you know, the conversation continues because the information has been supplied. whereas years ago, you just sort of had to leave the conversation. Like that was the way it is like everything was left in the air. Nobody could remember. Now this is no no excuse for that. **Michael Hingson ** 23:13 Yeah, absolutely. It's it's kind of amazing the way the way it goes, I'm when I go to family gatherings, there are always people looking at stuff on their phones. And there's discussion going on. And the bottom line is that people are talking about one thing or another and somebody's verifying it or getting more information. And I can't complain about that. So that that works out pretty well. And it's good to kind of have that well for you after going to college and going to Rutgers and so on. What kind of law did you decide to practice since there are many different ones? **Lawrence Eichen ** 23:49 Yeah, when I first came out of law school, I went into personal injury law. I took a job as a defense attorney. It was known as being in house counsel for an insurance company. And the reason I took that job is I always felt when I eventually went to law school, my mindset was, I envisioned myself as being somebody who would go into court. So there's when you come out of law school, there's really a couple of different positions that you can get, we can get very good experience early on in your legal career. So for me, it was either going to a prosecutor's office, you know, somewhere and prosecuting or being a defense attorney and working as an in house counsel for an insurance company, because there's just a volume of litigation in either way. I chose to go the route of the defense insurance position. I just didn't see mice. I just never visioned myself as a prosecutor for some reason, so I just never even explored that. So for me, it was really just a couple of choices and that's the one that I It shows and it gave me the opportunity to just defend cases where if somebody will either got into a car accident and you were sued by the other driver, you know, as part of your insurance policy, you were entitled to a lawyer who would defend you. And so I was that guy that would take on the defense of cases where other people were being sued as a result of car accidents, or slip and falls that might occur on a commercial property. I was also involved in those type of cases. And so let's say you were a contractor or something, and you were sued for some kind of negligent condition on some property somewhere, somebody fell, got injured, they sue everybody, then your insurance entitled you to have an attorney, defend, and I would do that as well. So that's really what I started out doing. **Michael Hingson ** 25:57 So that is a, you know, the whole issue of Defense's fascinating course, what did your aunt the judge, think of you going into defense? Or did you? Did you ever get to talk with her about it? **Lawrence Eichen ** 26:10 No, actually, you know, here's the thing is, I really probably would have went a totally different direction in my career is that when I was in law school, I had a chance to work with a very prominent New Jersey defense attorney, criminal defense attorney. And I could have worked as his law clerk or intern, I can't remember it while I was still in law school. But the problem was, he appeared regularly in front of my judge, my judge, my aunt, who was so there was this apparent conflict of interest, not that I would, you know, not that anything improper would occur. But my aunt was very concerned that how can she be in a courtroom deciding cases? Even if I wasn't in the courtroom, and he was the one in the courtroom, I was at his office? How could it happen? You know, if somebody ever found out that I worked in his office, then there's this appearance of a conflict. So I couldn't take the position with him. And I really wanted to because at that time, I found criminal defense. Very interesting, because criminal law in itself is very interesting, the issues, evidence and criminal procedure and all that stuff. So to answer your question, or about what am I and say, it really was, like, not even a discussion about it, you know, just something that I chose to do and just went a totally different direction. **Michael Hingson ** 27:48 I'm fascinated by what, what's going on now with Clarence Thomas, in the Supreme Court. Are you keeping up with that whole thing? **Lawrence Eichen ** 27:58 Actually, I just read an article on that yesterday. So yes, and interesting, absolutely disgusted about what's going on, even before that article came out, that talks about a conflict of interest. I mean, here there's **Michael Hingson ** 28:14 no there's no ethical guideline, apparently, for the the Supreme Court Justice is like there is even for lower federal judges or federal, federal people. **Lawrence Eichen ** 28:24 Yeah. But you know, Michael, here's the thing. That doesn't need to be in that particular there. What I'm what I'm saying is, yes, it would be better if there was some real, strict enforceable guidelines. I'm not against that. What I'm saying is, the judge himself should recognize just how ridiculously inappropriate that is. That's why even without actual laws, the judge himself ethically should be thinking, You know what, this probably doesn't look too good that I'm going on luxury, all paid vacations with one of the largest donors, who's, you know, a conservative minded individual. And now I'm ruling on cases that ostensibly might be certain areas of the law that are very favorable to these positions. Maybe I shouldn't be doing things like this, because it looks like a conflict of interest. And that's the thing about the legal profession, that doesn't have to be an actual conflict of interest. It just has to be the appearance of a conflict of interest, and then it becomes unethical and inappropriate. So even if nothing nefarious was going on, because there's no proof of that, right. Nobody has any proof that it would definitely happen. It doesn't even have to reach that level. It just has to reach the level of this doesn't look right. And for doing this for 20 yours, right? Is that what I think I heard are in the article for 20 years. Yeah. It's disgusting. It's absolutely disgusting. **Michael Hingson ** 30:08 Well, what seems to me is even more interesting is he never reported it. And that's where I think it becomes even more of a striking dichotomy or paradox, if you will, because even if there's not a conflict of interest, even if he wanted to do it, why wouldn't he report it? **Lawrence Eichen ** 30:26 Well, that's the that's, that's, that's what makes it even more revolt, revolting and disgusting. Yeah, he's sweeping it under the carpet. And why would you be sweeping it under the carpet? Like, what are you afraid to disclose? **Michael Hingson ** 30:39 I have grown up, especially as an adult, with a great respect for the law. I've been blind and a member of the National Federation of the Blind, which is the largest organization of blind consumers in the country. And the founder was a blind constitutional law scholar Jacobus tenBroek, who was very famous in the 50s and 60s for being an innovator with tort law and other kinds of things. And I've read a lot of his writings. And the law always fascinated me. And then I've been involved in actually in working with Congress and working with state legislatures, when, for example, we were trying to get insurance companies to insure blind and other persons with disabilities, because back in as late as the early 1980s, insurance companies wouldn't insure us. They said, We're high risk, where we have a greater and a higher mortality rate. And somebody finally asked the question, where's your evidence? Because you do everything based on actuarial statistics and evidentiary data. And they were told, well, it exists, can we see it Sure. never appeared. Why? Because it never existed. They weren't doing decisions on persons with disabilities based on evidence and statistics. They were doing it based on prejudice. And so we did get to work with state and and then and well, not so much the Congress I'll but state legislatures, and the National Association of Insurance Commissioners, and finally, now there's a law in every state, you can't discriminate, but it's just the it always has fascinated me to be involved in the law in one way or the other. And I've done it in other kinds of places as well. And thoroughly enjoy it. But it is very frustrating when something comes along like this, where somebody's playing games that they don't need to play. **Lawrence Eichen ** 32:36 Yeah, that's, you know, there's just that's why the whole that's why honestly, you know, without getting too much political conversation, because we could go down a rattle. Yeah, we **Michael Hingson ** 32:46 don't want to do that. Yeah, I'll **Lawrence Eichen ** 32:48 just say that. That's why people get so outraged when they see things that clearly show something's unfair, right, or something is just inappropriate, it touches everybody's inner sense of what's right and what's wrong. Yeah. And when things look clearly inappropriate, clearly unfair. You know, everybody gets incensed about it, or should get incensed about it, because we're all trying to live, we all seem to live with an internal compass of what's right, what's fair, you're born with that, you know, they they did a study, I remember reading about this years and years ago, and I will butcher this a little bit, but I seem to recall, there was a study on like, I'm gonna say, one year old, or two year old, something like that. And maybe it was even younger, I don't remember, but it was very infant or toddler type study. And all they were doing was like giving one infant or toddler like three balls, and then giving another one too. And then or they both start with three, and then they take one away from the other one. And the whole study was just showing that even these babies or infants or toddlers who can't speak, they knew they had the sense of something was not fair. You know, and that's what the conclusion was. And again, I don't remember the study. But the idea is that it's just that it comes with each of us. It's like part of you the hardware that you're wired with is a sense of fairness, and justice, even at the earliest parts of your existence. And that's why when we see things as adults that are so unfair or inappropriate, it just triggers a natural reaction with us. of you know, something should be done about this. This isn't right. And so that's where I'm coming from. **Michael Hingson ** 34:51 Well for you, you did personal injury, Injury, love and how long did you do that? And then what did you do? **Lawrence Eichen ** 34:58 I did that. Probably We are at that particular place for about two or three years, after a while you're like a hamster in a hamster wheel, because you have so many cases to handle at one time. And like I remember a friend of mine once telling me like, the good for you, like when you win a case, as a defense attorney in that situation, you know, it's not like you make any money for yourself, right? You're a salaried employees. So it's not like you, you know, you, you feel good that you won the case. But a friend of mine, I'll never forget, he said to me, the good feeling only lasts until the time you get to your car in the parking lot. And then you close the door and get into your car to drive back to the office, you start realizing about how many other cases you have to do tomorrow and the next day. And so you're like a hamster in a hamster wheel. Because even if you resolve a case, or settle a case, you get a couple of more, the next day to replace the volume of cases that you have to always have. So it's sort of a little bit of a burnout, or canvio. For at least for me it was and so I went on to I switch sides and went to a plaintiff's firm, and did personal injury from the plaintiff side, and also did some workers compensation, and then got into some other areas like municipal court or minor criminal matters. So I did all that probably for about, you know, I'm guessing, you know, looking back maybe 10 years in those areas of the law. **Michael Hingson ** 36:29 And what did you do? **Lawrence Eichen ** 36:32 Oh, yeah, what did I do after that? Well, **Michael Hingson ** 36:34 I took let's see, I took a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away. **Lawrence Eichen ** 36:38 Yeah, I have an interesting story. Because I took a little turn. After I did, I worked in a firm for a lot of years, I really became disenchanted with practicing law, and I decided to try something completely different. And it's a long story. So I won't waste the time how I got into it. But I did end up becoming a financial advisor. While I while I had my attorneys license, and became a financial adviser, and I worked for a couple of financial firms, one happens to be one of the largest ones, that you would recognize their name. And I did that altogether, probably for about, I'm gonna say maybe four or five years. And I you know, even though I was relatively successful at that, a really became like, clear to me, after not, not even that long, I realized, like, this isn't really for me, but I was trying something different to see if I would just enjoy it more than practicing law. And so I didn't eventually, then that's when I went and just decided to practice for myself and opened up a shingle and went back to practicing law. **Michael Hingson ** 37:54 For me, was that more rewarding? Because you are now doing it for yourself? I would think so. **Lawrence Eichen ** 37:59 Yeah, it was it was a that was something somebody had suggested to me that I should try that before I totally give up on the practice of law. So and I would say that it is a lot better working for myself as an attorney than working for other attorneys that I will definitely tell you is much better, because it's the feeling that whatever you do is going to go into your own pocket, and being able to control your own time and all that stuff. I mean, there's added other stresses that come with working for yourself, for sure that aren't there when you work for a firm or company. But the trade off for me was I didn't have to worry about anybody else telling me what to do. And I'll just figure it out and do it myself. And so it was sort of more of an entrepreneurial endeavor working for yourself than working for a firm or company. And I **Michael Hingson ** 38:53 think you told me that you you practice in Morristown. I do practice in Morristown? New Jersey. Yes. So did any of the dogs from the seeing eye ever come and say we want to see we want to sue our trainers or anything like that? **Lawrence Eichen ** 39:06 No, but I did I do. I do see those dogs routinely walking around. And in fact, there's as if I don't know if you've been there since they put up this statue. I've heard about it. Yeah, there's a there's a statue like right in the green the center of town of, of a seeing eye dog with somebody leading, you know, the **Michael Hingson ** 39:28 dog leading buddy and the original CEO, original seeing eye dog. Yeah. **Lawrence Eichen ** 39:33 Yeah. It's a great, it's a great it's a really nice, nice statue. And it's it's definitely symbolic of that institution that is, you know, world renowned and has done really great things with their **Michael Hingson ** 39:44 own hands. Oh, absolutely. It's the oldest guide dog school in the United States. Alright, did not know that. It's been around since 1929. I think it is. So it's been? Yeah, it's getting closer to 100 years old. **Lawrence Eichen ** 40:00 Yeah, I've met people over the years when I used to have a Labradoodle. And we used to take it to a dog park in Morristown, and there have been times, I'd say, I've probably met three or four people over the years, that had labs that they owned, that had failed out of the Seeing Eye Institute, you know, so you know, not every dog that goes to become a seeing eye dog makes it makes the cut. And eventually, these dogs, they're still phenomenal. The thing about the person that ends up getting that dog, you know, gets a phenomenal pet, because dog is probably better trained than any other dog around. But for some reason, it didn't make the cut as a seeing eye dog. But I've met several other owners with their dogs, that were what we used to say, you know, the ones that didn't get make the cut, but they were really beautiful dogs and very friendly. And **Michael Hingson ** 40:56 I don't know, I don't know where the concept was created. But what I think we've all learned over the years is that the dogs that don't make it don't fail, because just not every dog is cut out to be a guide dog, or in specific case of seeing is seeing eye dog, the the generic term is guide dog and seeing eye dogs are seeing eye because that's the brand of that school, but they're they don't fail. What what they do is they get what people now call career change, which is appropriate, because it's just not every dog is going to make it as a guide dog. In fact, the percentage is only about 50% Make it because the reality is there's a lot that goes into it. And it's an incredibly grueling and demanding process. So the ones that that don't succeed it that oftentimes go find other jobs are there, other jobs are found for them. Some become breeders, but some go on to do other things as well, which is, which is great. But you're right. Any of those dogs are phenomenally well trained, and are a great addition wherever they go. **Lawrence Eichen ** 42:06 Yeah, and I like the way I'm gonna think of that from now on going forward, and it's career change for them. It's good. **Michael Hingson ** 42:13 So what kind of law did you start to practice? And do you practice now? **Lawrence Eichen ** 42:19 Well, I started to get more into initially, when I went into practice for myself, I did a lot more Municipal Court type cases, and Special Civil Part type cases municipal court, meaning, you know, minor, anything from like traffic tickets to DWIs, those are all handled in the municipal courts in New Jersey. So that could also be like simple assaults, harassments, some temporary restraining orders, things of that nature, and special civil court cases or more like, you know, matters that are like, typically, people might know that as small claims court matters that were traditionally $15,000 or less, now they've raised the limit. But those are quicker cases, you know, so you can get more volume, the idea for that, for me was I could get, get my hands on a lot of cases, get some experience, doing some new things. And get, you know, I was never somebody who liked to have cases that lingered for years and years. And so I came from having a lot of cases that were in the file cabinet for two, three years. And it'd be like, I can't take looking at these cases anymore. So for me, I like, you know, if I had a case, I have it for a couple of months, and it's done. And then there's something fresh and new. So that just appealed to me. And Municipal Court work. What was nice about that is a whole different feel of that to where you're just kind of going in, you're negotiating most of those cases are just resolved through negotiating. And so I was always a pretty good negotiator. And the idea was, you know, what, it's, it's sort of like a personality or, you know, just just being able to develop a good relationship with a prosecutor, let's say, or the municipal court system. And so they're all different to that. The other thing about municipal court, which is probably shouldn't be this way, but the reality is, you know, every municipal court and in each town right, every town basically has their own Municipal Court for the most part until there was a lot of consolidation. But generally speaking in New Jersey, most towns have their own Municipal Court, but you go into one town, it's a whole different field and if you go to another town and so kind of kept things fresh, in a way it was it was like always new and different. The cases were always being new, relatively speaking, because they're turning over a lot. So that's what I did for the most part, and then I got myself over the years into some other stuff, some commercial litigation matters. A couple of matrimonial things, and guardianship matters and a bunch of other stuff I'm probably forgetting. But for the most part, I was doing mostly Municipal Court work and Special Civil War work. **Michael Hingson ** 45:13 But you got involved somewhere along the line and resolution conflict and doing a lot more negotiating, which is a little bit outside regular law practice, but still a fascinating thing to get into. **Lawrence Eichen ** 45:24 Yeah, I did, I did some work as a mediator. And I still volunteer, actually, as a mediator for Morris County. Most of those cases that I would handle these days, on a volunteer basis is handling disputes that come out of the municipal court system, where sometimes you get these crazy fact patterns between neighbors give you a classic example, there'll be a lot of, you know, the dog is barking, or the neighbors, one neighbors parking in the spot of some other neighbor, or there's ex girlfriends with the same boyfriend, and everybody's fighting, and there's harassment. And there's all sorts of crazy stuff that comes out of municipal court. And some of these cases, you know, they kind of farm it out to mediation, and say, maybe this can be resolved through mediation and avoid going on to the main calendar. And so they give it a chance to resolve through mediation. And so I've done a lot of volunteer work in that regard, and just trying to help people resolve it amicably and be done with, done with whatever the dispute is, and draft up some paperwork to make everybody stay accountable. And so that's sort of like a give back that I've done, you know, for the community, so to speak. And it's been rewarding in the sense that a lot of these disputes, even though they seem minor, from, you know, from the outside, if you think about it, and I think we've all been there, you know, where you have a neighbor, or a tenant or roommate, then it's not going well. And it's incredibly stressful to live through those times when you got to come home every day. And it's either your roommate, or your, your immediate neighbor, upstairs, downstairs, or even across the street, or whatever the case may be. It's incredibly stressful to have to live through issues that are unresolved that get on your nerves every day, right? It's hard enough to live your life working and raising kids and all that stuff that most people are doing, and then to have those added disputes lingering out there. So they may seem minor in nature, but when they're resolved, every single person feels a sigh of relief in those situations as they can just get on with their life, **Michael Hingson ** 47:47 do you find that you're able to be pretty successful at getting people to move on? And so you negotiate and you come to an agreement? And do people generally tend to stick with it? Or do you find that some people are just too obnoxious to do that? **Lawrence Eichen ** 48:03 Oh, actually, I've actually been very successful on that, at least the case is, I can't speak for anybody else's doing it. But from my experience, I had been very successful. In fact, they used to refer the hardest cases to me, because I had the reputation of being able to resolve these things. And so yeah, I would say, my track record in those disputes, I'd say was very high to get people to resolve only a couple of times I can remember, you know, where it was just like, there was just no way this thing is gonna get resolved, then we gave it our best shot. And they were going to have to go into court and just try to get it resolved that way. But most of the time, you know, over 90% of the time, they would actually resolve it. And what I would do is I would really make, I would take the extra time to make it known to them that they're signing a document, you know, that we're going to draft up that is going to hold them accountable. Now, I you know, I think there was only one time that I had them sign off on a document that later on one of the parties violated it. And it had to come back to court for some other reason, you know, for that reason, but most of the time, once they really go through the process and recognize that it's in their best interest to resolve it. It gets resolved, they sign off on it. And that whole process seems to work because they don't really break that promise. At least. I never became aware of more than one case since I was doing it. I did it, you know, for 20 years. So it's a lot of times that I've done mediations and I think there was only one case that came back after we resolve it. **Michael Hingson ** 49:49 You developed a process I think you call it E equals MC five. **Lawrence Eichen ** 49:55 Yes, my formula for negotiation excellence. Yes. **Michael Hingson ** 49:57 What is that? **Lawrence Eichen ** 50:00 Actually, that is a formula that I came up with several years ago really based on my experience negotiating. And I designed it and modeled it after Einstein's theory of relativity, right, which is equal MC squared, you physics **Michael Hingson ** 50:15 guy, you **Lawrence Eichen ** 50:16 know, I'm not a Pinterest guy, I'm not, I wasn't, I did like, Man, I did like math, for sure. And that's why I went into computer science actually, probably because it's the same logic, you know, and solving problems. But physics, even though it's interesting was never my thing. But I did remember that formula did stick in my head for some reason. And when I used to talk about negotiating, and just, you know, talking to other people about a client's other attorneys, whatever you get into these conversations, I realized that I had a lot of the same initials as the Einstein formula. And so I thought, You know what, I think I can make this work by coming up with something simple, to say to that's memorable. And so equal MC to the fifth is really, it stands, the E stands for excellence, with the idea in order to get the results where we're shooting for, right, we're shooting for excellence. Okay, so that's the thing we're shooting for getting excellent results. But we're shooting to get excellent results on a consistent basis. Because the idea is anybody can show up and get an excellent result once in a while. And I've done that many times, I'll show up into court, I get an excellent result. It's not because I was doing anything fantastic. It's just the happen to ask for something. And you know, the prosecutor or the other attorney, or the judge, granted, whatever I was asking for, it wasn't because of anything great I did, or any kind of great negotiating I did. So you can get excellent results. Once in a while anybody can do that. It's about getting it on a consistent basis. And that's what the formula is really designed for, because the M in the formula stands for mastering. And we're going to master the five c, core components. And those five C's stand for commitment, confidence, courage, compassion, and calmness. And those five core components, all starting with the letter C, if you can master those five, you will get exponential results. That's the idea of having it to the fifth power, you get extra exponential negotiating results. Because if you think about it, if you're negotiating in front of somebody, and you sit down at a table, or conference room, or wherever the hallway or on the phone, and if you have a mindset where you are committed to your position, right, you're confident, you have the courage to ask for what you need to ask. And sometimes it does take courage to ask for things. And you have compassion, meaning whoever you're negotiating with, right, they can say whatever they want, they can be obnoxious to you, they can be insulting, it doesn't matter, you're going to stay in a position of compassion. And you can be calm, as you're handling objections, and push back. If you have all five of those things working for you. Just imagine your mindset when you're negotiating, you're gonna get excellent negotiating results. And so that formula is something that I talk about when I give presentations on mastering the art of negotiating. And I apply that formula, I go through each of those components, obviously in more detail and give examples and strategies and tips how to improve in each of those particular areas. And again, the concept is by mastering them. And you don't even have to master all five to see dramatic results. If you just, you know, master one or two of those and improve a little bit on the other ones, you'll see tremendous, tremendous results. So it doesn't you don't have to master all five. But the goal would be to be mastering all five of those and then you really see excellent results on a consistent basis. That's where their formulas **Michael Hingson ** 54:20 and I would think to a large degree calmness, as you point out, is not only one of those, but would probably in a sense be the most important to get some of the emotions to die down and get to really look at what's going on. **Lawrence Eichen ** 54:37 Yeah, I mean, that's a very good point. And you know, I I fluctuate between which one is the most important but the reality is, you know, they're all important. Yeah. being calm. Absolutely. There's times in a negotiating situation where calmness is so effective because as especially when you're negotiating, and you know, you don't want the other side to, you know, see you getting all anxious and nervous and stressed out, right, you want to be calm, just because you don't want to tip your own hand necessarily. But also, you don't want to fuel a potentially explosive, a volatile situation, depending on what you're negotiating about, right? Because we negotiate about all different things. And we could be negotiating, as I was talking about earlier about disputes between neighbors, those are certainly highly charged, very emotional. There's a lot of resentment and bitterness and anger and a lot of those types of disputes. Or you could just be negotiating on a very, you know, straightforward contract dispute, that may be so emotionally charged, but there's a lot of money involved and you want to be calm. When somebody's saying no or giving objections, you might be thinking internally, oh, my God, I really need this. To settle I need this deal. You know, I need to close this deal, I but you don't want to let that on, you want to be able to sort of like playing poker, right? You know, when you have a great hand, you don't want to let it on. When you don't have a great hand, you don't want to tip your hand either. You need to be calm at all times. And so to your point, yes, calm this is very effective. I like to think of calmness as a trait of leadership, right? Because when you're calm when you're negotiating, I always like to say that, often times, whether you're negotiating with a client, or customer or your spouse, business owner, anybody that you're negotiating with many times during a negotiation, the other side needs to be led to the conclusion that you want them to reach. So being calm is a position of leadership. And if you have very good points to make, and you have a lot of good reasons why whatever they're objecting to your position meets those objections. When you're calm, you're going to be way more effective in presenting your side, and you're going to simultaneously allay their fears and their concerns that they're raising with their objections, by your calmness, it's an energy, that if they see you not being all stressed out and bent out of shape, about their position, and you're really calm and effective in presenting yours, it can help persuade them into arriving at the conclusion where you're already at. So it's it's leadership, you're you know, that's why objections are really an opportunity for you to be a leader, it's an opportunity for you to lead that person back to where you want them to go. And, you know, it's like sports, right? Who do you want taking the the last shot of the game? You want the guy who's going to be calm under pressure, not the person who's going to be reacting and stressing out so much. **Michael Hingson ** 58:17 One of the things that you talk about I know and you've, you mentioned, to me is the whole idea and the whole issue of imposter syndrome. Can you talk a little bit about that? **Lawrence Eichen ** 58:27 Yeah, sure. Yeah, imposter syndrome is a very interesting issue. I definitely relate to it personally, because I felt impostor syndrome for so many years, in my legal career. And first of all, what it is if anybody who's listening or watching is not familiar with it, it's basically this fear of being exposed, that you're a fraud or you're an imposter. And a hand in hand with that is usually this fear that you're going to be found out to be not as competent or not as qualified as other people think you are. So that's where this this this concept of being an imposter, right? And a lot of what goes with impostor syndrome. So for somebody who's experiencing it, is that they tend to attribute their successes, their achievements to external factors, rather than owning their own achievements. And what do I mean by that, like external factors, that could be like luck, or chance, you know, somebody might get a great result. And they might just attribute that success to Well, I just happen to be in the right place at the right time, or I just had the right connection. I knew the right person. And when they say they say things like that to themselves, they're really disowning their own skills, their own qualifications, and they're attributing this success to something external from themselves. And that external factor is not just luck or chance, it could also be, you know, their personality, their charm. You know, for me, I can even share an example when I used to go into court and get a great result. Sometimes driving home in the car, or driving back to the office, I should say, I'm replaying what went on. And I'm thinking, you know, I got the result, because I was personable, I was making the judge laugh a little bit that day, I was, you know, I was diminishing my own skill, or my own competency. And I was kind of thinking, the reason I got the result was probably because he liked me more than the preparation, I did more than the arguments that I made. And that's a classic example of like diminishing your own skills, and attributing your success to that personality or charm. And you can extend that to gender, race, ethnicity, age, even even handicap, you know, why? Why is somebody in the position they are in? Why did they get the results? Well, maybe it's because let's say for women, very common, women might think, Well, I only got this high profile position, because there's no other women in the company that are in these high profile positions. So even though the woman might be completely qualified and skilled and competent, she might be thinking to herself if she's dealing with impostor syndrome type issues. So you might be thinking, the only reason I got it was because I'm a female, I'm a woman, and had nothing to do with my skills and competencies. And so again, it's externalizing our own successes, and attributing them to external factors. That's just what it is. That's sort of the definition of impostor syndrome. **Michael Hingson ** 1:01:48 So it sounds like you've had to deal with some because you just talked about it when you're driving back from trial and so on. So is it something that you have had to contend with? **Lawrence Eichen ** 1:01:58 Yeah, many times. It started with me, honestly, when I was in law school, I didn't have a here's the thing I didn't know it's called impostor syndrome. So I only found that out, maybe I don't remember when, maybe 510 years ago, I'm guessing. But I never heard of that. But I had the symptoms of this stuff without knowing what it was. But when I was in law school, the first way I used to feel like an imposter was because I was a computer programmer. Right? So I was really a programmer. And now I was in law school with all these law students who in my mind chose to be there. Because they wanted to be lawyers. I'm in here thinking I didn't know what else to do with myself. I'm really a programmer. I'm not really a person who reads books and studies like that. I'm a programmer. So I started to feel that in law school, and then when I was practicing law, even having graduated from law school and passing the bar and being qualified to be a lawyer, would now when I was in court very early on in my career, I'm worried when I'm in front of a judge, like, he's gonna ask me questions, and I don't know the answers to them. And I'm going to look foolish and stupid and not smart enough. And it was like kind of bringing back childhood stuff, because my father used to make me feel that way. And it was like, oh my god, now I'm in front of all these older men that are going to be quizzing me and making me feel like I don't know anything. So there was that fear, like I was going to be found out. You know, that's that feeling like, Oh, my God, I'm fooling everybody that's part of imposter syndrome is like, you're you feel like you're fooling everybody. And so I was always believing I was getting away with it. When I would go to court, even though I got good results. Those results weren't being owned by me the way I was describing earlier, they were really being attributed to external factors. So I'm just going along all the time believing that I'm this, you know, impostor, I'm not really a lawyer. So like, when I would be negotiating with prosecutors and other attorneys that have more experienced than me, I'm on guard thinking, Oh, my God, I'm gonna look so foolish. And somebody's gonna finally go, ah, we are not really a lawyer. What are you doing here? You're a programmer, you know, or something like that. And like, of course, that would never happen. But I'm thinking in my head, like, there's this feeling like I'm going to be exposed. So yeah, to answer your question definitely experienced it a long time without knowing what it really was. **Michael Hingson ** 1:04:28 He regarded as a

Spencer Garrett – Winning Time's Chick Hearn - Spencer Garrett plays Chick Hearn in HBO's latest smash series Winning Time: The Rise of the Lakers Dynasty. The series is taken from Break It Down Show alum Jeff Pearlman. Jeff's books thrill sports fans telling the stories of Bo Jackson, The USFL and now brought to life the 80's Lakers dynasty.  Watch Winning Time on HBOMax Today! Spencer has decades worth of TV and film credits. His role as Chick is one of about 10 new projects that are schedule for release or deep into the pre-production process. Pete A Turner dives in with Spencer LIVE on the Break It Down Show. Hat tip to Brett Allen, who connected Pete and Spencer. Please support the Break It Down Show by doing a monthly subscription to the show  All of the money you invest goes directly to supporting the show!   For the  of this episode head to  Haiku Lakers rise, bright stage gleams Spencer's voice, Chick Hearn reborn Haikus echo dreams.   ​​Similar episodes: Lord Nelson  Bryan Fuller  Rico Alvies  Join us in supporting Save the Brave as we battle PTSD.  Executive Producer/Host: Pete A Turner  Producer: Damjan Gjorgjiev  Writer: Dragan Petrovski  The Break It Down Show is your favorite best, new podcast, featuring 5 episodes a week with great interviews highlighting world-class guests from a wide array of shows.

From noir and the western to the utopian world of screwball, where love is anything but love, and Hollywood reached its fairytale peak. Part 2 of my conversation with the film historian/critic/novelist David Thomson is all about being raised by movies, the importance (and occasional hazards) of insanity, and secrets of the moon.   The full, intimate episode is available only to subscribers. Become one now at patreon.com/filthyarmenian to follow the full, twisted adventure, with access to twice as many episodes.   Story Board: George Bailey, James Stewart, perfect fathers, divorce, Julia Roberts, James Dean, Rock Hudson, Noel Coward, David Lean, Joan Didion's last act, Virginia Woolf, a writer's judgment, the loss of the great editor, Bob Gottlieb, Dino DeLaurentis, David Lynch, Blue Velvet, Irving Thalberg, Harvey Weinstein, book industry, Little Shop Around the Corner, Preston Sturges, the big secret, directorial power, Freeway, Spike Lee, Chick Hearn, Pat Riley   David Thomson is the author most recently of the enchanting fiction trilogy SUSPECTS, SILVER LIGHT, and CONNECTICUT.    Follow us on twitter/instagram @filthyarmenian

This week, we are thrilled to talk to an exceptional actor, and true Tinseltown original, Spencer Garrett. As we prepared to speak with Spencer, I found myself inexplicably captivated by his presence. It dawned on me that he evokes a long-forgotten romantic vision of Hollywood that I was searching for 24 years ago. It's akin to the ambiance of Jack Nicholson at Dantanas or Bukowski at the drawing room. During our conversation, we delve into the contrast between this romanticized concept of Hollywood and the realities of our own experiences. Born into Hollywood, in a way, Spencer's mother was none other than Kathleen Nolan, a prominent actress and the first female president of the Screen Actors Guild. His father, Richard Heckencamp, was an esteemed talent agent. Though his upbringing allowed him unique insight into the enchantment of our industry, Spencer still had to prove himself like anyone else. What stands out to me about him is his undeniable passion for the work. It is a special kind of joy that has sustained him for nearly four decades in the business. The list of his credits is far too extensive to cover in its entirety, but he is particularly recognized for his roles in notable films such as Air Force One (1997), 21 (2008), Public Enemies (2009), All the Way (2016), and The Front Runner (2018), among many other remarkable projects. If one were to consider a career in chapters, I would confidently assert that this latest chapter has been one of his most captivating. He stole the spotlight from the likes of DiCaprio and Pitt in Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, and he is now reprising his role as the legendary Chick Hearn in the upcoming second season of HBO's Winning Time. We sincerely hope that you all thoroughly enjoy this episode. In many ways, I believe that this is the episode where we truly grasp the genuine ethos of our show. #spencergarrett #onceuponatimeinhollywood #winningtimehbo #winningtime #hbo #meisner #leonardodicaprio #bradpitt #quentintarantino #oldhollywood #actor #characteractor #chickhearn #lovethatguypodcast #brendanreynolds #ronniegeneblevins #actor #actorinterview #interview #film #filmmaking

Mychal reacts to a clip of Chick Hearn calling one of his games, sent to us by one of our listeners. Also, Kanye West had a party and they had sushi in a very particular way. Find out how? and is it appropriate? Also, Aaron Rodgers talked to Bill Maher about what is it like in his off season? Plus, Chris Morales does another U.S. Open golf update. And we are ready for another edition of GAME OF GAMES as Pepe Mantilla and Jorge Sedano join us to play. SUPER CROSSTALK with SEDANO and BETO DURAN in for Kappy! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Host Brandon Contes interviews John Ireland, radio voice of the Los Angeles Lakers and co-host of "Mason and Ireland" on ESPN Radio in LA. Brandon and John discuss a wide range of topics including a potential "Last Dance" docuseries with Kobe or LeBron, Kobe and Shaq's divorce and reconciliation, and covering an NBA Finals during a pandemic.For even more discussion, head over to awfulannouncing.com and follow us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube: @awfulannouncing.-:44: Living out a dream job as radio voice of the Lakers-1:37: Working with Chick Hearn, receiving advice from Chick-2:21: Working with Mychal Thompson, dealing with Lakers-Warriors series with son Klay playing for the opposition-3:12: John on the Lakers' dramatic turnaround this season-4:24: LeBron James chasing Kareem Abdul-Jabbar's career scoring record-5:37: John explaining his call when LeBron set the record-7:10: Was John nervous making a monumental call like that?-8:14: Difference in radio and TV broadcasting during historic moments-11:26: Covering LeBron in Los Angeles. How do the locals view LeBron?-12:38: How do Lakers fans view the “bubble championship?”-14:03: Lakers receiving local attention vs national attention-15:43: Differences in covering LeBron James and Kobe Bryant-17:15: Local news stations covering Kobe and LeBron-18:30: Kobe, LeBron, Shaq personalties-22:36: Kobe and Shaq divorce-25:07: Were there any incidents between Kobe and Shaq during this time?-27:42: Did John have a stronger relationship with Kobe or Shaq?-29:25: Kobe or LeBron “Last Dance” docuseries???-31:00: Covering Kobe's death-37:08: Calling the NBA Finals from a studio during a pandemic-39:20: Doing TV play-by-play-40:04: John on Charles Barkley saying broadcasting sporting events on radio is “the stupidest thing in the world”-43:21: Difference between ESPN's and TNT's NBA studio shows-45:12: Dynamic of hosting an ESPN Radio show in LA and working for the Lakers-46:35: Has LeBron ever complained over something John said either on commentary or on the radio?-47:54: John's proudest call

Ross W. Lilley grew up in New Jersey. He graduated from New York University with a Bachelor of Arts degree in Economics. Later he received his Masteries in Divinity from Andover Newton Theological School. He moved to Massachusetts to accept the Senior minister role at South Acton Congregational Church for nearly 20 years. However, he was always feeling a different call. Ross grew up with an interest in persons with disabilities and always felt and saw around him the lack of understand and discrimination these people experienced. When he graduated high school in New Jersey he took up the sport of windsurfing. While serving in his ministerial role, Ross began think about and eventually forming AdccesSport America, a company to help teach windsurfing and other sports to persons with disability. When his son was born with a disability Ross felt that he was destoned to help his son and others through his dream. In 2001 Ross left the church and officially took on the full-time position of leading his company. Now, he works with thousands of persons with disability teaching them a number of sports and showing them that no matter their disability they can do more than they thought. He and his staff teaches soccer, tennis, baseball, basketball and, of course, windsurfing as well as other sports. Ross' story is much more than an inspirational one. You will see how he is even developing new technologies that he hopes will greatly assist even more persons whose mobility skills are seemingly limited. You will, I think, love what Ross is doing. I hope what you hear on this episode will show you that all of us are more unstoppable than we think especially when we have a team to help. About the Guest: Rev. Ross W. Lilley grew up in Tenafly, New Jersey, graduating from high school in 1975. That same year, he began windsurfing on the Jersey shore. He graduated from New York University with a Bachelor of Arts in Economics in 1978 and Masters in Divinity from Andover Newton Theological School in 1983. He was the Senior Minister of South Acton Congregational Church for close to 20 years. In that time the seeds for founding AccesSportAmerica began to grow. In 1983, Ross began developing windsurf adaptations to make that sport more accessible. The endeavor to adapt the sport was part of a greater interest in creating places and activities to overcome disparity and discrimination in the disabled community. Since that time Ross has been adapting and teaching sports and training for people with disabilities. In 1986 the Lilley's son Joshua was born with cerebral palsy and resulting spastic quadriplegia. Although Joshua uses an electric wheelchair and can walk with assistance, Josh and Ross began windsurfing together when Josh was four years old. Eventually the two sailed in their own windsurf marathons. Because of their efforts, the Lilleys have appeared in over twenty publications and televised programs including Good Morning America, Inside Edition, The Boston Globe, The Boston Herald and American Windsurfer Ross and his family have received several awards including being a two time recipient of the Heroes Among Us Award from the Boston Celtics, honoring "people who have made an overwhelming impact on the lives of others…" and presented to individuals who, "…through their unique commitment and humanitarian spirit, have made exceptional and lasting contributions to our community". Ross is known for creating adaptations and game systems to truly include all people in sport and training. Most recently the TheraTrek, gait training system was patented after more than a decade of research and development. Rev. Ross Lilley lives in Acton, MA with his wife Jean and their son Joshua. Their daughter, Hanna, lives in Maui but still works camps and runs clinics with Ross and AccesSportAmerica. Social Media Links: Our website is www.goaccess.org Instagram is AccesSport Facebook AccesSportAmerica About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app. Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes Michael Hingson  00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i  capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson  01:16 Hi there once again, it is time for another episode of unstoppable mindset today, we get to meet Ross Lilley, we're actually Reverend Ross, Lilley Ross has got a story to tell. He is not a person directly as I recall with a disability, but he has a son who is and he has had a long time interest in that. And there's a lot more to his story than that. And I'm not going to give it away. So Ross, welcome to unstoppable mindset. How are you?   Ross Lilley  01:49 Thank you, Mike. Oh, great. Thank you. We are in our mid we got here just in time.   Michael Hingson  01:56 Right. And I was just gonna say, if people haven't figured it out by now we record these podcasts. And sometimes there's a little bit of a delay before they get up just because we do have some backlogs. And in Ross's case, we are taping or taping my gosh, you can tell how old I am. We are recording this episode on January 23 2023. And for us the temperature got down to 26 degrees here in Victorville and you have a snowstorm.   Ross Lilley  02:25 Oh my, wow. Yeah. I work with people that are all younger than me, pretty much. So I say tape all the time. We put out a lot of videos for our training sessions. And they're all wondering what to tape is.   Michael Hingson  02:41 I remember when we lived in New Jersey and I worked in New York at the World Trade Center. We often and saw among other things, one or wolf on I think it was channel two in New York. And he always said let's go to the videotape. Well, they weren't videotaping back by that time. Well, let's let's learn a little bit about you tell me about you kind of growing up and just sort of how things got started and all that.   Ross Lilley  03:07 Sure. I I grew up in New Jersey, and I remember Warner well. Yeah, I'm, I'm old too now. But like, let me see I was a if we're going back that far. I I always had an interest in in inclusion, I guess I would say and I used to coach and and create things where people could get involved a lot more a lot of sports stuff. I remember even growing up and always was kind of the one who was like, let's get a game going and getting people going and and so one of the sports I really loved was windsurfing. I got to do that when I was high school and I you know it's first paycheck I ever got actually was to buy a wind surfer and anyways fast forward a little bit I went to for for no good reason I went to seminary to become a minister   Michael Hingson  04:06 and there must have been a reason yeah there is you   Ross Lilley  04:09 when you when you go to seminary they all everybody you sit with your classmates in a circle and they all talk about their call the so called call and and in some of these stories go on and on and on and people tugging and God pulling and all that kind of stuff. And my was just, it just sort of hit me that I probably should go to everybody told me I'd be a good minister and I should go and I just somehow said okay, I gave into this process, but there was no no hit on the head kind of experience like a lot of these other folks. But anyways, my mentors all taught me that good, good religion, like good life was inclusive, and that if everybody couldn't come it wasn't maybe worth taking the ride.   Michael Hingson  04:54 Since you started down that road of the whole concept of inclusion. Well   Ross Lilley  05:00 I think it was just something in me and then I, in a resonated when when I had these mentors who were similarly minded, like minded and especially, you know when I could make it so some of the whole market ministry it seemed like I was in the right place. And when so ministry was going that way in at the same time, I was windsurfing, and that was kind of at odds with what I believe because it's a pretty exclusive sport. And so I, I devoted all my spare time to try and make the sport of windsurfing accessible to people of all abilities. You look like have something to say, no, no. Okay. So so I started just going up to people on the beach and saying, You look like I have a disability, you want to go windsurfing, which is really nice. No, no, no under a slapped me, but there you go, they should have. So I used to take people with kind of just will say light ambulation issues out windsurfing and figure out ways to make it more accessible. And even, I made some adaptations, which it turned out I was pretty good at and then I was my son was born in 1986 with cerebral palsy, and spastic quadriplegia tetraplegia. And he became kind of a you know, that's where the rubber would hit the road, I guess is if, if I really believe this about inclusion, I would make a choice there i My wife and I made a choice that everything that we would do, we were going to believe that he could do as well. All the things that we thought were good in our lives, we're going to make a choice that we're going to ram it down his throat that these things were going to be good for him too. So So for good or for bad. He was born into the right or wrong fam family and he became this test pilot for a lot of the things we do. And anyways, we started to to do wind surf marathons. And I found that based on the fact that I found that this sport really excited him to stand where he couldn't stand in a standard for more than 10 minutes, he could stand leaning against me. And we could go for really long distances. And some of these wind surf marathons we did he was seven, eight years old. And we're going a mile out into Cape Cod Bay and back. You know, we did one which was memorable over three hours was 10 Miles net that caught the attention of like the globe and Good Morning America and things like this. And that's how we started our program and proper.   Michael Hingson  07:39 So you, you talk about inclusion. And my note here, are you using the word diversity? How come?   Ross Lilley  07:49 How come I go again?   Michael Hingson  07:52 You call it inclusion? And I don't hear you using the word diversity. Why inclusion and not diversity?   Ross Lilley  08:00 Oh, gosh. I guess they're pretty similar to me. Is there? I don't know if there's a huge difference in my mind.   Michael Hingson  08:09 Well, there shouldn't be. Yeah, but typically, diversity doesn't include disabilities in the discussion, which is why I react well to inclusion because some of us who talk about it, don't let people ever get by with saying, Well, we're in. We're inclusive, but we don't deal with disabilities yet. Well, then you're not inclusive. You can't the word just diversity has been warped, it seems to me and I've said that a number of times on the podcast. So I love it when you are using the word inclusion and inclusive because that's really what it should be about and diversity should be as well, but it's not very rarely do you ever hear disabilities is included in that?   Ross Lilley  08:55 I strongly agree. Yeah, in our program, we have a lot of the when we're going for grants, a lot of people are talking about diversity and how diverse we are. And it and when they when they want that to go along racial lines or whatever I'm I'm always surprised that like we're you know, we're sort of inclusive all it just doesn't occur to me that that that would be our main criteria compared to how we're including so many people have so many abilities. So yeah, I yeah, I always think about inclusion. It's funny.   Michael Hingson  09:33 So how did you end up in Massachusetts from New Jersey although it's not that far of a ride it is still another state and it's a little ways away?   Ross Lilley  09:45 Wow, it's funny I figured my story so boring. I'm I was like I got I got out of college. And I I wanted to be a musician. Although my degree was in economics in mind. or music. And my brother was selling stereos up in Boston. And I came up here just to get a job. And that's how I got up here. And I thought I'd also find it and I thought there was a pretty good musical community up in Boston, I thought I'd get into that. I was a I studied for 10 years with the principal percussionist in the New York Philharmonic, and I thought I could make a go of it as a drummer as a jazz drummer, but I was wrong. Work out on now.   Michael Hingson  10:33 Well, then you ended up in the ministry along the way. Yeah. I guess, actually going into the ministry.   Ross Lilley  10:39 Yeah, we I was, I guess that back to that story there. The when I was selling stereos, and when dreaming about music people, the people who said, everybody knows you should be a minister, but you Ross were people who were also in ministry. And that was they were great to steer me into it. It was it was good idea.   Michael Hingson  11:02 So are you at a church now?   Ross Lilley  11:05 No, I, I left in 2001. To do this full time. Before the pandemic, we had 2000 People coming to the program, each year to do adaptive sport and training. And even before that, when we were you know, 400 is, it was pretty much a full time job while I'm trying to, you know, be at a church as well. So I had to make a choice, that church, church life is a good one, but it's tough. And when I was at a great church, but it's, it's tough. And you know, if you do it, some people do it. So they're, they taken a professional approach more professional than I would take in the strict sense of the world. So they could, they could put it aside at night and, and, you know, kind of decompress and be away from the church. I couldn't I took everything in and and felt it for like everybody, and it just kind of wears on you after a while.   Michael Hingson  11:59 Yeah. Well, and you've kind of gone in a different direction and do sort of the same thing. But you're applying all of it to sports, adaptive sports and disabilities, and so on. So how do you do take your son windsurfing? How does all that work?   Ross Lilley  12:16 Well, now he's is, is 36, and is a pretty big guy. So what I used to do, where I could just pick up with one hand doesn't necessarily work. So when we go in serve now, I'll use a standard or a railing standard, and things like that on the board. And I might have someone on a board with me, we have lots of different rigs that we've created. And, you know, well, my focus won't be necessarily on on the distances we did before, but more of him being able to hold a sail on his own, with me just holding the mass to the sail and things like that. So it's   Michael Hingson  12:52 once again, the same you're on the same board. Yeah.   Ross Lilley  12:55 Right. If, if you and I were to go I windsurfing I would put you on a similar board with to sales, you could be standard or seated to get comfortable with the sale, and I could be in front of you on a second sale. And I could help control your sale. And then as you as you got better, I would go to less stable boards, and you would focus on you know, you could then focus on balance as you had mastered your sales technique. Right?   Michael Hingson  13:25 The whole idea is that you have boards, they have sales, and that's how you move, right?   Ross Lilley  13:31 Faster. In all of our sports, anything we do. The general rule is the faster you move, the more stable you are, when you get going. When you're stable, then you can do a lot more if you're just sitting there getting ready to go. It's pretty wobbly.   Michael Hingson  13:45 You know, I bet sort of like the whole well, a little different sort of like the whole concept of a gyroscope when you spin it fast. It keeps you stable.   Ross Lilley  13:54 Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I like that.   Michael Hingson  13:58 Well, that's that's pretty cool. So you are you're able to do it well. And so do you do you still do a lot of wind surfing with him?   Ross Lilley  14:09 I do more wind surfing with our it's funny you would think I would do a lot but I do more teaching have other folks in our program. Is he doing? So again? What does he do? Josh? On those days, he might come to beach and help us out or might go to a program. But Josh does a lot in your sports in the summer. The way we operate as a sports in the summer are designed for you or your family member to see themselves as athletes as viable athletes, and then to use that as an incentive to train for higher function. And the sports in the summer we have or or windsurfing and Hawaiian Hawaiian outrigger canoeing, stand up paddling, kayaking, and we also have traditional sports like tennis and and soccer and In football that we also apply these inclusive game systems to. And Josh, more times than not, if Josh is at our site and working, Josh will be a part of a crew in an outrigger canoe. He has a fairly functional right hand. So we have all sorts of adaptations where we might, you know, use a Ace wrap to keep his left hand on his bent paddle or something like that. You get a sense of two hands going. But he'll, if he comes down, he's usually paddling more than anything now.   Michael Hingson  15:34 Does he work? Does he have a job? Or is the program kind of what he does? It's kind of a day   Ross Lilley  15:39 program. But they have program. He lives with us though. And yeah, and well, no.   Michael Hingson  15:46 Does your wife wins? Does your wife win serve?   Ross Lilley  15:50 She did. And she doesn't really now. She, we do a sports camp in Florida every year and she comes out and and comes out and help and she's actually pretty skilled at it. Yeah.   Michael Hingson  16:04 That's pretty cool. Maybe she, what does she What does she do? Oh, go ahead.   Ross Lilley  16:08 Where does she she's, she actually works with us right now. She's, she's an interior designer. And, but she left that to work for us. And we also it takes, it takes a lot to you know, raise a kid with a disability and yeah, and to keep me going. I know which side my bread is buttered on.   Michael Hingson  16:34 Good move on your part. Yeah,   Ross Lilley  16:37 she does a lot that she helps teach with us. And she helps train with us as well whenever she can.   Michael Hingson  16:42 We were a two disabilities family. My wife was a chair and a chair her whole life was a T three para, but she passed away in November. So now it is me and a dog and a cat. And, you know, it's it's fun. I miss her and and so on. But at the same time, we we do have a lot of fun. And the dog and the cat keep me honest.   Ross Lilley  17:10 Wow, it's still fresh. That is every day and I'm sure for the rest of your life. Right?   Michael Hingson  17:15 Oh, we'll be we were 15 days shy of being married for two years. Oh, my. Yeah. So it is. It is one of those things, it will be with us. But as I tell people, the Spirit just goes faster than the body sometimes. And that's what happened here.   Ross Lilley  17:30 The spirit goes faster than the body. Yeah, the   Michael Hingson  17:33 spirit moves faster.   Ross Lilley  17:35 Oh, I wish I wish I was preaching now I would use this. Well, there's some good explication of it for me. Wow.   Michael Hingson  17:43 There you go. That's terrific. Well, we we, we function we continue. But tell me, do you do sports in the winter as well? Or what do you do in the winter.   Ross Lilley  17:53 So today we have a special. So we're good at adaptations and inventions. And we've discovered a lot of our athletes who are training more than anything wanted to could walk on a treadmill with assistance. And so we've invented a device, it's a it's a gait training device that will probably sell for like $5,000. And we have a gym when which we specialize in doing gait training with people. So we do a lot of that. And we also go to schools and we train people in Boston public schools and some other schools. And we do a it's a sport based program. And it's also one that we can do online. So and we do tennis, we do tennis and cycling when the weather it's good for cycling, but tennis all year as well.   Michael Hingson  18:43 Yep, cycling, probably not right now.   Ross Lilley  18:46 Well, if it's above 45 degrees, we go out. Well, yeah, but not today.   Michael Hingson  18:52 Not today. That's what I mean. The snow, the snow falling off. And so as a result, not a good time, but yeah, I hear you. So do you have any distinctions or differences regarding kinds of disabilities? Or do you care and or as a disability as a disability as far as it goes?   Ross Lilley  19:15 It certainly is we would take we'll take anyone of any ability disability from ages like five up to 100. And if we can accommodate them, we'll create something so we can so we build arm braces, airplane braces, sort of for people with limb differences. We've created a lot of seating particular for particular people to do any of our sports, a lot of stuff. And our you know our intent is to is to include anybody, especially people who have no other place where they can, where they can participate in these kinds of sports.   Michael Hingson  19:52 So that probably gets to be I won't say a challenge, because it is but but it does get to be a An issue that you get to be able to deal with people with neurodivergent issues as well. So you can deal with autistic or, or people who have Down Syndrome and so on. And you're just as welcoming to do that as, as you do people with physical disabilities, like you're talking about.   Ross Lilley  20:15 Exactly, yeah. Well, and the variety really makes it interesting. And that we love that challenge, especially if, if you know, everybody's different in their own way. And so no rule, no generalizations apply. And if we don't expect something miraculous to happen, a session, we're, we're missing the point. You know, every every session, we find something that's different in every session, we find something where people surprise us.   Michael Hingson  20:44 So I assume things sort of dropped off a little bit when the pandemic hit.   Ross Lilley  20:48 Big time. Yeah, well, we, we never stopped, we created an online program for our year round program, year round athletes and for school program. And that was, that was kind of cool. Because we made this unique system, where we have six variations of high intensity interval training exercises. And it was like in the can ready to go. And and we put it right in within a week of the pandemic and the onset of that and people being in shutdown. We had that online and going with people.   Michael Hingson  21:22 It's really cool. how that worked out quite well. We're   Ross Lilley  21:25 using it now. It's still we have over close to 80 exercises with these progressions, and then we we put together combinations, the exercises and put it live for a lot of our classes. And I   Michael Hingson  21:37 for for adults as well. Do you find that people who participate in the summer, continue to stay with the program and will work in the winter or? Yes, same same clients and so on? Right, which is cool. How many people are part of the program now?   Ross Lilley  21:57 Well, last summer, I think we had, again, our high point was about 2000. Now we're about 1200, I think. And so we you know, in the summer, we have a camp for we're including kids into a camp of, of junior high aged kids. And then we have a program with the Flutie foundation for kids on the autism spectrum. And then we have our own site, where we have anybody in any any one who wants to come out. So there's a bunch of teams on several sites in the summer. And then from those, they participate in our year round programs. Let me see, probably about half participate in year round programs. We have a soccer and conditioning program as wellness in in a winter.   Michael Hingson  22:39 Boys, girls, men, women, everyone. Yeah, which is so cool. Oh, how do you do soccer? How does that work?   Ross Lilley  22:48 Let me see when we have when, let me see for we let me we created these these game systems where everybody is vital to the system. And you have anybody have any ability has to meet certain requirements of in the game for people to go on. So if you know lice would say if you score and then you can't score again until the rest of our team scores or for our team to fray our points to count everybody on a team has to at least have an assist or a block. So there's all these and then there's certain goals that they shoot at, there's some that are easier to get than others. So there's there's all these accommodations we make depending on who's playing so that everybody can be vital to their team and everybody's working towards that. And it's designed so everybody have every ability is challenged to their utmost as well.   Michael Hingson  23:48 May not be using the right word. But soccer is sort of a ferocious or certainly a hard hitting fast sport. And in general, how does that work when you're dealing with people with disabilities and a lot of different skill sets and so on? Do they do the people still tend to play as ferociously as they can?   Ross Lilley  24:11 They do and they don't. So there's, there's things we have an inappropriate challenge rule where we try to put like abilities against each other. And, you know, the people that the best so called Able bodied players are working really hard to get balls to people to make assist or to involve them. And then people maybe who have ambulation issues are doing their their best to get into a position even if it makes them going you know for five minutes getting down the length of the field to get there. That's their goal to get in a position where they might have a chance at a goal or to get back to defense. So there's there's things we invent for everybody that make them slow this game down for them without without Making anybody really slow down that much?   Michael Hingson  25:02 So, do you find challenges of getting totally ambulatory people, for example, to play and play well with people who may not be as ambulatory or work as well? Moving around?   Ross Lilley  25:17 Yeah, it's a that's a challenge, you know. And so when we call is trying to find the perfect game, and it is a challenge, but you know, it's a skill to play to is a skill to learn how to play with varying abilities at once. And, you know, we do when we do this camp in Florida, that's our, our proving ground for this, and you live with this for a week, and people get very good at the game by about the second day.   Michael Hingson  25:42 So people grow accustomed to it and grow into it. And at all. Yeah,   Ross Lilley  25:47 yeah. Our whole community is about getting out of the way of yourself. And so if and trying to let something bigger come through yourself and something bigger come through each of these games.   Michael Hingson  26:00 Are you teaching people to be competitive? Or is it more teaching people to, to work together and have fun together? Or is it kind of a combination? Because a lot of the sports, like soccer, like tennis, football, and so on, are more competitive sports, and they're usually viewed as being very competitive. But is that the same way it comes out for you? Or is it a little bit different in terms of mindsets?   Ross Lilley  26:29 It's funny, I don't, you know, like, in popular sport, I think great competitors aren't necessarily great people, right? They're just insecure about losing. And I think it's, we all need to learn how to lose so we can learn to live with something that's bigger. But in ours, we do teach to can be competitive, but in the end, Ron, we want people also to have perspective about it. And I saw like, the worst thing that could happen is where you have people come in, who don't care. So it's nice to care. And but it's even better if they compete with themselves more than anything else, right and drive with strive for more function drive for some, something that they they've accomplished on their own. And even farther than that, it's great to be a part of a team and to feel like, maybe for the first time in your life, you're valued on a team. Right, and that, that you're not just a throw away, and that there are people aren't condescending to you, and you're on the field of play. We have an example we have a friend of ours, one of our athletes, was on ESPN for playing a cerebral palsy, and some, you know, ambulation was a little a little slower than most folks, and they put them into a high school football game, right. And so one play they gave, you know, the other team was in it, they gave him the ball, and they let him run and eventually ran out of bounds. And I almost think that that kid should have been tackled, that maybe there's an art to tackling and but people deserve the dignity of failure they deserve to be treated with with some seriousness, and that their accomplishments aren't something where, you know, there's all these videos of, of Little League games, where people are some kid hits with cerebral palsy, and is going around the bases, while people fun falling down for the ball and all this stuff. You know, throw a kid out every now and then make them work for accomplishment, make, make them understand what it's like that that you know what they truly appreciate what they've done. If I went even further, it's like races. We like we like we have sometimes we have races, and we like people in the races to do something that they have to train for if someone doesn't train for it. It's just, you know, it's not that compelling. And people on the outside need to see people with disabilities training, and being really true athletes. So we like things where people train for it. And people accomplish something. That makes sense.   Michael Hingson  29:03 It does. It absolutely makes sense. Because we we find so many people who behave exactly as you're describing, oh, it's great that he was able to run 20 or 30 yards. Wasn't that wonderful that he had the ball. But by the same token, we're not really dealing with, with what's going on and who's the one that really comes out feeling good about that? Well, I suppose that there is some truth to the fact that the person involved is excited that they had the ball, but the people are really doing it for themselves so that they can feel good that they can feel superior, rather than as you said, tackling somebody after a while, by the way, there's nothing wrong with tackling somebody rather than them running out of bounds. Even if they go 15 yards and then you tackle them. That that says something to and you're right there's an art to tackling that. it. It's all about changing in a sense, the definition of winning. Hmm.   Ross Lilley  30:05 I love that. Yeah. I never heard that. But I think that's a great concept too about the defining redefining winning.   Michael Hingson  30:16 There's, there's nothing wrong with winning and being competitive. But if you have to win, then are you really winning?   Ross Lilley  30:27 Oh, that's even better. Yes. We are very much on the same page. Yeah.   Michael Hingson  30:33 And the the fact is that, I realized that with most modern sports, it's all about winning. But is it really or should it really be something to think about? Hmm, that's   Ross Lilley  30:49 Yeah. So you you have thought about this. You are into it? Are you Are you a big sports fan yourself?   Michael Hingson  30:55 I listened to, to sports more than anything else. But I, I grew up with some really great sports announcers to be my teachers as it were listening to them and just their philosophies of dealing with the game. I mean, you know, baseball, you can't do better than having Vin Scully describe the games and just all the things that he talked about, and I know that he understood, winning and, and he always wanted the, I'm sure the Dodgers to be the victorious team. But the way he announced the games, no matter who won, it was really all about the game, which is what it ought to be. Hmm.   Ross Lilley  31:32 Wow. Is he still alive? Really?   Michael Hingson  31:36 Did he now he passed away last year? This year? Yeah. Yeah, he retired at the end of I think 2016 and then passed away last year.   Ross Lilley  31:48 That's well put, and I'm glad I'm glad you've put time to think about that. I I think about it all the time as well. And I always wonder if I'm the only one. Sailor staff thinks about it. And especially when you're putting game systems together.   Michael Hingson  32:03 What's your favorites? Which Oh, go ahead.   Ross Lilley  32:06 Go now my favorite, your favorite sport to teach? I guess, all of them because, like our game systems, you know, if it's team sport, our game systems work across all the main team sports, football, basketball, and soccer and even floor hockey. We work with some Boston Bruins on floor hockey and we work with some of the New England Patriots on our on our training systems. And as long as people are moving, and we work with the Red Sox as well, but the as long as they're moving for a prolonged period of time, if this sport gets them going like that I like anything that drives that it's not so much the sport is is to me as much as people participating in it and getting into shape and belonging to something   Michael Hingson  32:57 the professional athletes been in terms of working with him and so on. And how does all that work out?   Ross Lilley  33:04 Pretty good. Let me you know, it's good. Somebody from your area, Jimmy Garoppolo. injured, San Francisco 40 Niners quarterback. He came to about three of our clinics when he was with the with the Patriots. He and some other players really got it. They didn't they didn't come with any condescending condescension. And they didn't settle for you know, they held the bar high for our athletes. It was pretty good. So I'm surprised at this. We've had other guys like Andrew Ray Croft from the from the Bruins came out, and Terry Rozier who's now with the Charlotte Hornets. He was with the Celtics they came out in and within minutes, I thought they pretty felt pretty comfortable that population, I thought they will be talking down to him. But they were always really good.   Michael Hingson  33:55 That's really pretty cool. And nothing like having some of those folks coming out and teaching because you're getting taught by the best in the business.   Ross Lilley  34:05 Right. Yeah. And also, it's nice when they're sort of humbled by what we do. That's a nice, that's always a nice gesture when they are when they have done football clinics before and run them. And they defer to us. I think that's really that's a nice, that's a nice recognition for us.   Michael Hingson  34:27 So how large is your staff?   Ross Lilley  34:30 We have in the summer, just about 20 of us. But during the year we have just three of us full time who are trainers, and we have other support staff staff. We have actually we also during the year have interns who are terrific. We use a lot from local universities.   Michael Hingson  34:48 Do you have or ever have any people with disabilities on the teaching staff?   Ross Lilley  34:53 That's a really good one. And if it was during the year yes, you You know, but under water, we, we don't, mainly because of safety and needing to, if we need to jump in the water and rescue somebody, and we can only afford, you know, three or four people on a team, we can't we can't go rescue one somebody with a disability. It's a really, it's something we agonize with all the time because we're on the water. But we are not good in that regard. Only because we, you know, we have to decide who we're going to pay. We have limited resources, and we need everybody to be, quote unquote able bodied, to help with rescues if need be.   Michael Hingson  35:37 Right? Well, I think of the possibility of people like people who happen to be blind, who might very well be able to help and rescuing there are several centers around the country that have blind teachers teaching in a variety of environments. Including taking students out to lakes and doing various things in the summer. And again, it's it's all a matter of looking and learning. But there you have someone who's a lot more ambulatory, if they learned to listen and really are aware of what's going on around them.   Ross Lilley  36:17 Ya know, that that's probably a good point yet, I just don't have anybody in front of me, like, like that. But, you know, in a way, I probably should be more proactive and seeking people like this in in the least bit, because they can, they can have other folks. I don't wanna use the word inspire, lightly, but they could help inspire other folks with a similar abilities to come out. Right, right. I guess we're all role wary of using the word inspire. But I still love the word. Well, there's nothing   Michael Hingson  36:51 wrong with inspire, again, if you're doing it for the right reason. And this is, as we were talking about earlier, with the whole issue of running 30 yards, and then running out of bounds, but not being willing to tackle someone who is at this really being inspired as opposed to just feeling good. And there's nothing wrong with true inspiration, something that motivates someone to do more and feel better about themselves than they did and shoot for higher goals. So that's okay. I think, I think that's what in part has to come from inspiration.   Ross Lilley  37:29 Well, well said,   Michael Hingson  37:32 and it's a, it's a process, but for you, what's the most rewarding part of what you do, you're certainly doing something that has to do a lot of things that I don't want to use the word make you feel good, but inspire you. But for you, what's the most rewarding part of what you do?   Ross Lilley  37:52 When, when, when it works? When when we do works. And again, if I can, you know, there's, there's something that bigger that bigger than me that kind of is in this organization, even though we my wife, and I, my son and my daughter are founders of this, we we've found that there's a there's a culture that's developed in this that that goes behind us and I love it to see when when people remind me of some of the original tenets of how we started, you know, and like, or if I see some protocol or device or technique work with somebody, when it shouldn't, I'm really I love that. Like, instead of like we've worked for 12 years plus on this gait trainer. And when I see people's gait, improve after a half hour on the machine, and just it's incredible to me, or when I see you know why I'm not a really confident person outside of this, but I'm really confident what we can do with people on a windsurfer on a stand up paddleboard and a canoe and I know, when even when families say this won't work, I know that I can make certain things work and to see that is really something or to see someone surprised me and show what they can do. beyond what I ever expected, I love that.   Michael Hingson  39:16 Tell me about a real surprise something that happened or a person that came to the program and you didn't think necessarily they could do all that they ended up doing and they really surprised you. I'd love to hear a story about that.   Ross Lilley  39:33 I got a bunch but they all start with my son, right he's you know, by all rights he should be. He would be without what we do. He would be in a power chair with contractures all day long, and now he can because we have trained so much I can walk with him just holding one hand is rigorous but I can hold one hand and walk with Him. So that's that's somebody you know, by definition no functional use of his, either of his legs or his arms and I can hold one hand walk. So he, and you know, the way that he did some of those marathons, some of that was the greatest athletic feats I've ever been a part of in my life. Other than that, we have people who are running now who had hemiparesis and you know, we're in coma, and then came out of this and work with us and train with us and now can run and play in some of our games. Those guys are amazing. And there's other people still who were up and using some our equipment and training in keeping you know, in like this, like somebody I work with today's that he has MS. Cannot wait bear. But in our in our machine, he was up and standing in propelling this machine on a treadmill today all by himself. That's kind of incredible.   Michael Hingson  41:02 How does the machine work? What does it do?   Ross Lilley  41:05 We've, what we've done is we without a motor, but yes, using pressure on a treadmill. And and this unit that we've built off the back where we grab, this device grabs people at their lower leg. And as a piston is connected to essentially a rebuilt, spin cycle. And we can determine how long their length of stride is going to be how much hip and knee flexion or bend they're going to have. And then you put it for in a uniform fashion on a treadmill for, you know, half hour to an hour at a time. And we can pedal people through to weaken, we can slow people's rate down or increase it and it's it's emulating what a $400,000 device can do. And it works really well.   Michael Hingson  41:55 Have you ever looked into? Or Has anyone ever taken any of these and manufactured them and maybe did more mass producing of them?   Ross Lilley  42:04 We're on were doing that now. Actually, we're working with a manufacturer on on that. Except the process is long. And there's lots of parts to this. But yeah,   Michael Hingson  42:14 and you got to go through approvals to get the whole legal aspect of it addressed as well.   Ross Lilley  42:21 Well, we have our patent down, and lots of other patents associated with it. And now we need to get FDA approval.   Michael Hingson  42:28 That was what I was going to ask you about how the FDA figures into it all.   Ross Lilley  42:34 Where it's semi medical exercise. So we're trying to navigate those waters and I, I'm relying on one of our board members to do it to work with me on it. Well,   Michael Hingson  42:45 it does. It does sound really exciting to to do and to see the things that are happening. And again, I think one of the most significant parts about this is that you're welcoming to everyone. Do you have any? What we would call able bodied people come to the program? Or do they just come to staff? Or do you ever welcome people without disabilities into the program as well?   Ross Lilley  43:10 All the time? Yeah. Mostly into our games. So if someone wants to volunteer or if they want to play, we'll put into like a Thursday night soccer program or or have played tennis with us something like that. Yeah. You I know we decided I think told me early you you're not you're not actively playing a sport now. But if you could, what would it be?   Michael Hingson  43:39 Oh, gosh. There are several I'd love to play even if it's just to learn more about them. I've always been a baseball fan. So I'd love to. To do more with baseball. I'd love to learn more about football. I enjoy listening to football, although baseball is still always been my number one interest but I'm spoiled as I said before by Vince Skelly. But, you know, I, I think that sports in general would would be fun to experience no matter what it is because there's so much of it that I don't know a lot about and for me playing it would be as much as anything a way to and a reason for learning about the sport.   Ross Lilley  44:26 So I mean, you never day with a beep ball or anything like that.   Michael Hingson  44:30 never really did anything with a beat ball. There wasn't a group around to do it with for me.   Ross Lilley  44:36 Wow. It's a ride. I've tried to it's a riot. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I thought it's a genius and,   Michael Hingson  44:46 and then there's the new one talking about soccer and so on dodgeball. Oh, yeah. And I don't know whether I want to be up Be a person who just has to run around drop on the ground might get kicked in the head and going after a ball. So Oh, no.   Ross Lilley  45:10 Soccer is amazing, right? directly on the sides like three versus three. Yeah. That is an amazingly well developed sport is incredible.   Michael Hingson  45:21 And Basketball is fun. What else? Again? I'm spoiled. We had Chick Hearn out there out here and when I lived in the east, the first time I lived in the east, I lived in Winthrop, Massachusetts. And of course we had Johnny most.   Ross Lilley  45:37 Yep. Yeah. All right. Let's stop settling down which   Michael Hingson  45:42 will check stole the ball. I have that record.   Ross Lilley  45:50 Wow. Winthrop, we it's a good surfing beach or Winthrop.   Michael Hingson  45:54 Yeah, yeah. And Winthrop and Revere Beach and so on. Sure.   Ross Lilley  45:58 One of our programs looks at Revere. Winthrop, by the way, one of the islands where we have a program. Uh   Michael Hingson  46:03 huh. Wow, wait. So I keep up with sports. I've just never been very active in that regard. I was in the boy scouts, but we didn't do sports stuff other than hiking and camping. Which, which I did. So that was that was okay. You're a scout? Yeah, I was an Eagle Scout.   Ross Lilley  46:25 Holy smokes. Really?   Michael Hingson  46:29 Well, you know, you got to do something to to keep functioning and active.   Ross Lilley  46:34 So being on the bestseller list are Eagle Scout, they're about the same, aren't they?   Michael Hingson  46:41 They're fun to do.   Ross Lilley  46:43 Holy smokes. And what was your What was your project as an Eagle Scout?   Michael Hingson  46:48 Oh, gosh, I was involved in doing some radio stuff and doing some things relating to publicity in Palmdale where I grew up.   Ross Lilley  47:02 I used to, I used to be familiar with that. Because we would have you know, kids would come by the church, and we're our program and they need to find a project, right inevitably would be us building more times than not, it was let's create a ramp for somebody in town, you know, wheelchair ramp.   Michael Hingson  47:21 I'm on the board of an organization that works with scouts up in Santa Rosa. And they've built benches for the the center and done a number of things. It's been a favorite place for Eagle projects,   Ross Lilley  47:33 benches, benches, that's a big one. Right? Those are good.   Michael Hingson  47:36 Those are always good. What's the biggest challenge that you tend to face from the community are in the community? In   Ross Lilley  47:45 the mean, as I was running in running the program here or in my life, which to both? Oh, gosh, I was hoping you take the first one.   Michael Hingson  47:57 You get both.   Ross Lilley  47:58 I mean, I think more than that I you know, we're always rubbing two nickels together to make it by right. We're we're in the black all the time. But it's funding for programs like this, I spend more time doing programming than I do on fundraising. And I always grateful for donors who free me up so I can free us up so we can focus more on programming than anything else. So that tends to be a kind of a worry that goes with with our work. I I guess but I also worry that I'm I won't live long enough to see some of what we have come to fruition or perfection, I guess, especially with in regards to our gait training. I think what we do well, we've, we've come up with a system that I think is a true game changer. But it needs to be perfected. And it needs to be something that we universally have out there that that makes everybody improve their gait. And then this other thing are big challenges. How do we how do we train people, kids in schools with disabilities, where the resources they are, they're underserved, and his resources are slim, and they need to build habits that will stick with them after age 22. And so those are things that kind of gnaw at me that I you know, we just got to get it done gotta get done, and I don't know how to do it on a broad scale. So sad that   Michael Hingson  49:35 at the same time, um, how, what are what are some stories about people and how they have improved because of what you've done from an attitudinal standpoint, because it must be for people who really internalize it. People who go through the program, whether it's just dealing with gait training, or who are going off and playing sports, and we talked about winning and all that but just playing Seeing should be a lot for people, but how have you truly helped people and their attitudes and their outlook on life really improves.   Ross Lilley  50:12 I can tell how they've helped me that what the best part of this is a community that we have a community that claims people for life, you know, if you're if you're part of this community, you're with us, and we'll never let you go. And so I, I am part of that as well, these the my friends, all my friends, and the closest people I have here are those with whom I work and those and the athletes in the program so that you buy you on a Sunday morning. I so as far as athletes go, I hear all the time, people who say, you know, you, you've shown us a different side to our son, or I'm so grateful. One guy you wrote literally said you, you helped us be brave with the wind. I love that one. I was I was teaching on Martha's Vineyard in in someone who just couldn't believe they were out in the water doing this. So I hear that kind of all the time where people come to program and they expect to do something, you know, they they've heard that people could kayak and then and then we try to steer them to something that might be a little bit tougher. And then we know we can have success with and then when we do that, they just can't believe it. They're blown away. Yeah. And so lots of people like that. Which is tougher when surfing or kayaking. Windsurfing, ah. That's why I mean, I guess you can say there are as tough as you want to make them and to go high level on something, but to get involved in independent I think is tougher. But you know, it's also when we can have more success with I'm not as huge a fan of kayaking as I am as the other sports we do them. But the seating alone, because you're long sitting it, it makes your posterior chain really tight, your hamstrings are tight and it and it pulls your pelvis back. So you're kind of in a tough position, and people aren't necessarily as loose as they were if they could sit more upright.   Michael Hingson  52:23 Right? Well, and well, I don't know, I was gonna say, I would think that there are probably more balance issues also, with the board and interacting with the board with windsurfing than there are with kayaking,   Ross Lilley  52:40 right? Where we can, we have all sorts of boards that we've designed where we can be very stable. And you know, we've had people on events on our boards before because we were so confident they weren't gonna fall in, you know, so you can get as stable as you want, and then graduate to less and less stable as you go on. Less, less stable is faster,   Michael Hingson  53:02 yours. Right? Right. Well, for you and all that you've done. Have you ever thought of writing this story, creating a book or anything like that, to help educate more people about what you do and get them to realize that people with disabilities are just the same as everyone else? As I like to say, we need to change the definition because disability does not mean lack of ability.   Ross Lilley  53:31 Yeah. Well, I was hoping I'd meet a best seller author. I did at one point, and then I think it's like an invention that gnaws at you, I gave out, I gave up on it. You know, and I'm not that gifted a writer. So I, when I was in seminary, I took a course at Harvard. And it was on writing in the teacher that, of course, was a friend of mine, who's an editor at The Atlantic Monthly Michael Curtis. And so over the course of 12 weeks, I had one sentence in one paragraph where he said, Good job. But then again, I started writing a book, Cory, more to the point of what you're saying, I started writing a book about our experiences. And he loved it, which really just blew me away that I gotten to the point where this guy would like it, but the process and to come up with stuff would be tough. I think people want you to my advice was a one a more personal stuff than I wanted to give. They want to know about the struggles and how it plays itself out in your marriage and things like that. And I wasn't gonna go that deep into that. I mean, so if they want a little bit of any controversy I could have as well, which I didn't have a ton of.   Michael Hingson  54:55 Yeah, yeah. Everybody seems to like to have controversy and that doesn't necessarily help all I think that the personal aspects telling personal stories can be done without jeopardizing individuals, but the stories and the accomplishments I would think would be very meaningful and make a book like that really be something people would value. Yeah, exactly.   Ross Lilley  55:19 Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I mean, and I haven't been that specific with the stories, I think I, I would be better if I had given you some stories of some of these folks. And I was, I was just thinking that there was one guy who had it who had a stroke in his by his late 40s, and came to the program. And, and he used to run, he was a middle distance runner. And we have been working with him on his gait. And we we put him into our sports camp in our Florida sports camp. And he started, he started just blocking things. And by the end of the camp, he was he was running for balls, and even sending balls, he developed a pretty good kick, which was really remarkable. So he's planting with this, this almost straight leg, almost less functional, very less functional than the right leg and his planning on that and kicking and shooting. And so by the end of the camp, he was just so surprised with himself and so grateful for this. Yeah, have you had   Michael Hingson  56:33 people who you worked with, who felt well enough about themselves and who could do it, who went off and maybe found a job or got a job or went back to working because they suddenly realized they could do that?   Ross Lilley  56:49 I wish that were true. But more times than not, it's just it's such a tough nut to crack, right? We've had people go off, we have had people go off and get jobs, and then over time, gave up the jobs because even as they wanted to work, the job was somewhat beneath their skill set. Right that before the before their accident or their injury, they you know, some of these people had pretty high level jobs managers or, or writing code. And then, you know, the focus wasn't thereafter and they were doing things that are overtime seem what menial to him. So, yeah, we haven't had, I mean, we've had success in that people wanted to dream for that kind of thing. And people have more function, and they brought more to the relationships. But as far as jobs goes, I haven't seen a lot of sustainable kind of improvement there. I'm sure you've seen the same thing, right?   Michael Hingson  57:48 Well, I see a lot of it when you know, in the case of blindness, specifically your loss of vision. The fact is that, for the most part, losing eyesight doesn't mean you can't go back and do what you were doing. There are so many people in so many different kinds of jobs, that the proof is really there that you can go back to doing what you did. You've got to learn skills, but you can still do it. There are very few jobs where that really isn't the case. Unfortunately, there are all too many people who think it's not the case. That's what makes the big difference. Yeah, it's still mindset.   Ross Lilley  58:29 And if you were in the workplace, I mean, I I work with people, you know, especially when we have kids on the autism spectrum, we'll work with people until if they will keep coming, we will work with them until they succeed in some form. And I think that Sure, I wish that I wish that were the same in the workplace is to that the upside for this population is so enormous you just are you wish you had that kind of patience in the work in the workplace? Well, I   Michael Hingson  58:54 might be another dimension where you have to involve some other organizations or some other entities to make that happen. Yeah, it isn't like you have to do it all but at the same token you at least start the process so in in the camp in the program obviously you want people to have fun Where does I've got to ask because I always always think about these things where does humor fit into all this   Ross Lilley  59:21 I'm I'm humorless and always appropriate. So I know I'm   Michael Hingson  59:29 it's always one in every crowd   Ross Lilley  59:31 that I know I'm, I'm I'm I guess I would say hi effect. I've been rich, rich asset kind of person. And always looking for the gleam in people's eyes and always requiring that evolve the people that work for us that they they look for the gleam in people's eyes and connect. Yeah, and for me to do that, almost nine times out of 10 takes humor and not in and on the border of appropriateness, whatever it takes to reach people. is part of it. So yeah. And we also don't like to take ourselves too seriously. And so you need humor to help people not take themselves too seriously. And to help people. You know, in our program, there's no tragedy. No one comes in here leave are leaves this place thinking that their lives are tragic. No one allows anybody to feel like that. It's not as it's not overt, but it's just a kind of a sense you have and part of that is laughing at ourselves all the time. You know, I'm, I kind of like the king of self deprecation, and I'm fine with it. If people want to poke fun at me to, to laugh at and to laugh a little bit at the situation. I love it. So   Michael Hingson  1:00:45 which gets us back to our whole issue of winning, right? You're you you can be self deprecating, you can have fun. And as you said, not take yourself too seriously. No, seriously, maybe sort of kind of, but not too seriously, which is really important. Well, I have to say to you, sir, contrary to what you believe, and believed, it has now been an hour that we've been doing this and you didn't think you had a story to tell?   Ross Lilley  1:01:18 I had a story. I didn't know if it's gonna be that interesting. So I'm glad. I'm glad we've made it is 10. Very easy. And you're you're so engaging is great.   Michael Hingson  1:01:26 Well, thank you. Tell me about the name of the program, how people can reach out to learn more about the program. And, of course, being prejudiced about these kinds of things, make donations to the program.   Ross Lilley  1:01:37 So we're Access Sport America and it's our website is access. Access sport America, sport America. Okay. Yeah, so just just two s's in it, but you go, our website is goaccess.org, G O A C C E S S dot org. And you can learn more about us there. And also, if you want to make a donation, you can as well and we're primarily bait boss, Boston based or northeast based in Northeast Ohio, our our programs for schools are, you know, becoming national, we're hoping that we can expand that program and help people in different school systems with that system. And as far as our gait training, go, glad to handle anybody who may be want to come out in the area and work for a little while. Although that takes that takes weeks and weeks. If they had they need to have the wherewithal to do that. But if our fire device is manufacturable that will be on our website and in probably about a year and how to get that.   Michael Hingson  1:02:39 That'll be exciting. Yeah, and again, it's access sport America. ACCE SS p o r t.   Ross Lilley  1:02:47 E S S P O R T. Yes. Yes. Well done.   Michael Hingson  1:02:51 Cool. Well, and if people want to reach out to you, how do they do that? Do they best do that through LinkedIn or?   Ross Lilley  1:02:58 I can write me a Ross at Goaccess.org R O S S at Go. access.org   Michael Hingson  1:03:04 There you go. Well, Ross, Lilly, it has been absolutely fun. And I've learned a lot I am looking forward to somehow getting back that way from out here and getting a chance to meet you and shake your hand in person and go windsurfing.   Ross Lilley  1:03:20 We might do some clinics in California, and if we do we will now   Michael Hingson  1:03:23 we're talking Okay, well, that would be fun. And I'll bring my dog. Yes, please. Of course, cat won't come the dog will. I don't know whether he'll want to windsurf, but you never know. But I want to. I want to really thank you for being here today. And being with us. I think this has been absolutely enjoyable, inspirational and fun. And that's as good as it gets.   Ross Lilley  1:03:52 Thank you. Same here. I wish I had asked you more questions to learn more about you   Michael Hingson  1:03:56 will see now you'd have to start a podcast so you can do that. Pretty sure.   Michael Hingson  1:04:03 Well, I hope you've liked listening to us today. Please reach out. I'd love to hear from you. You can reach me at MichaelHI at accessibe A C C E S S I B E.com. Visit our podcast page www dot Michael Hingson H i n g s o n.com/podcast. Where you can listen to the podcast or as you may have found us elsewhere. That's okay too. Please give us a five star rating. Like go to apple and iTunes and give us a five star rating. We really appreciate the ratings you give us and any comments and thoughts that you have in Ross, for you and for everyone listening. If you know of anyone else that we ought to have on this podcast, please let us know reach out, let us know or give us an introduction. I would appreciate it we're always looking for interesting, new and fun guests. So please let us know and we'd love to hear hear from you about that. But again, Ross, thank you very much. We really appreciate you being here and anything we can do to make the program successful. We're in. We're wanting to do it. So thank you very much. And we will hopefully do this again, huh? Oh, yes.   Ross Lilley  1:05:14 Oh gosh. Yes.   Michael Hingson  1:05:16 Well, great. Well, thanks again and we hope that you'll continue to listen to podcasts for us.   Ross Lilley  1:05:22 Thank you.   Michael Hingson  1:05:27 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upco

Longtime character actor Spencer Garrett is playing the legendary Lakers broadcaster Chick Hearn on the HBO Series “Winning Time: The Rise of the Lakers Dynasty.” Garrett has appeared in over 100 films and television shows. Some of his appearances include the newscaster Roger Scott in For All Mankind, the award-nominated film Blonde, Tarantino's Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, Mad Men, Bosch, and Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen. He also is a part of the Marvel Cinematic Universe as the Rose Hills Sheriff in Iron Man 3. In this episode, Garrett talks about his long career and discusses his experiences playing role in all of those movies and TV shows. He talks about the opportunities he found, and discusses his many famous friends. Follow Spencer on social media @1SpencerGarrett.

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Coby C. Williams will tell you that he always has been a person who asks “why”. He readily admits that some find his inquisitive attitude at least a bit uncomfortable, but Coby has built a career on his “why” attitude.   Coby is the founder of New Reach Community Consulting. New Reach is a Black-owned and Certified B Corp small business. A B Corp is a special corporation category of only around 5,000 “benefits companies” that are known for environmental and social justice concerns. Coby is definitely all about social justice as you will discover.   Our conversation covers a wide amount of territory including talking about how disabilities are often left out of social justice conversations. I think you will find this episode quite fascinating and engaging. I can't wait to read your thoughts. As always, thanks for being with us and I hope you will give my conversation with Coby a 5 rating.   About the Guest:   Proudly from the Westwood neighborhood in Cincinnati, Coby C. Williams, Founder and Owner of New Reach Community Consulting. New Reach is a Black-owned and Certified B Corp small business based in Columbus, OH that provides public affairs consulting services to help organizations connect with communities for important causes.   He's “an activist who happens to be a consultant” and has been involved in social justice in various ways since he was a tween. His background includes community organizing, legislative affairs, and consulting in the private sector. Coby serves on the national Board of Directors as well as the Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) Committee for the International Association for Public Participation (IAP2) USA.  He enjoys bourbon and is a lifelong fan of the Los Angeles Lakers.   Link to Coby's LinkedIn profile: www.linkedin.com/in/cobycwilliams     About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app.   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.     Transcription Notes* Michael Hingson  00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i  capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson  01:21 Well, hi again, wherever you are, and whatever you're doing Welcome to unstoppable mindset today, we get to interview Coby Williams. And Coby has a really great story to tell. He believes in working with minority businesses and a variety of causes. He is a founder of New Reach Community Consulting, and he'll tell us about that. And so I don't want to give a whole lot away. I'm not gonna gonna tell you all about it, because he will so Coby, welcome to unstoppable mindset.   Coby Williams  01:55 Yes, thank you so much, Michael, it's a pleasure to join you.   Michael Hingson  01:59 Well, if you would, why don't you start and kind of go back near the beginning and just tell us about your life a little bit growing up? And how you sort of got where you are?   Coby Williams  02:09 Yes, thank you. Thank you, Mike. Well, um, I am very proudly from a neighborhood called Westwood, and Cincinnati, Ohio, I lived in that neighborhood, just over 20 years of my life. And my mother, few years beyond that, who is still still with us. And Westwood is a, it's a what you call, I guess, a challenge neighborhood would be the term that would probably be used. And it really fundamentally shaped a lot of the ideologies, that I have a lot of the passion that I have, both just not just professionally, but also personally. You, you name it, I've seen it. In that environment, both the good, bad, and in between, and, you know, coming from an environment such as that, you know, it really helped shape, you know, what's possible? And also to question why things are, why are certain individuals and populations and communities experiencing those those challenges? And most importantly, how can those individuals and communities be empowered? And, you know, what's the role that they can play in help to better those conditions? And, you know, what are some of the systemic changes that can happen to better those conditions, so, very much shaped, you know, who I am and who I be becoming, you know, one thing I like to say is, you know, coming from an environment such as that a lot of people I say they, they either run from it, or they lie about it. And I very proudly wear that on my sleeve, and I'm very fortunate that the nature of my work still takes me to communities such as that either directly and or to help organizations engage with, with communities for you know, what I just simply call social impact or social justice, you know, what are ways to help move different communities forward?   Michael Hingson  04:38 Well, what what got you to do that I mean, you something made you make that decision or something in your life, kind of turn your your head to go there, what really got you to the point of truly being that concern and interested in social justice and trying to make a difference in that way.   Coby Williams  04:56 You know, great question. I I'll see, I cannot recall a moment per se, I am a self admitted nerd of of many things, many, many subjects, many topics, but you know, the, the civil rights movement was very, you know, I've studied that growing up, which, you know, I'm quick to point out, did not start in the 1960s or 1950s. And it certainly did not end. But, you know, learning about that, of what was taught in school, but largely, you know, self taught or taught through my community, and how many of those conditions just were, were and still are present? You know, as I got older, and, you know, Cincinnati is my beloved hometown, but is fairly tribal, with with our neighborhoods. And as I got older and got exposed to different neighborhoods, and you know, hey, every neighborhood isn't facing these challenges. And why is that? And so, you know, getting there wasn't a specific moment, I think, but just kind of just being exposed to different environments, and tying that into, you know, history, you know, past or present, and how, you know, some things unfortunately, kind of have remained the same. And that really just, you know, I'm a big why person, you know, why is that the case? And, you know, what are some of the ways that I can be a drop in that bucket to help, you know, be a vessel was really how I view myself in my work, to help, you know, make a difference with the finite time that, you know, I'm here on this earth. Hmm.   Michael Hingson  06:50 Well, it's, it's interesting, I think our environment does shape us a lot. You just said something. I'd love you to expand on you said that the Civil Rights Movement didn't begin in the 60s or in the 50s. When would you say it began?   Coby Williams  07:05 Yeah. You know, and that's something I stand tall on a soapbox on is, you know, the first enslaved Africans were brought here in the early 1600s. And I don't think that they were affected. I know, they weren't very happy about their predicament. So I think it goes all the way back to the to the early 1600s, at least the 16, nine teens. So you know, didn't start in the 1950s or 60s, take it all the way back to the early 1600s.   Michael Hingson  07:43 I had a history teacher who talked about that. And I'm not sure I remember which class it was in which teacher it was. But he came in, and he started telling a story about how a ship came in a harbor and the crew of the ship went below and they brought up all these people who look different because they were, as we now would say, people of color or African Americans, and they said, and we brought these people over here, we're going to sell them to you so that you can use them as slaves and get things done. And that story has always stuck with me. And I, I would say in one sense, you're right that the civil rights movement started then. But I take it back even further. Of course, I come from dealing with a community of persons with disabilities, and specifically people who happen to be blind. And I would say it goes back far beyond that, in terms of dealing with someone who's different that is someone who happens to be blind. But the problem is that if you deal specifically with blindness, there are many fewer blind people than there are people who happen to be a bit different color or have some other kind of a difference, which makes it tougher, but I would say as long as we've had differences, we've had people who believe that we should be treating people more equally than we do.   Coby Williams  09:10 Well said. Well said. And I also want to add Arizona, you know, you know, folks were brought here to to unoccupied land. Right, this this land was fully occupied by our brothers and sisters in indigenous and First Nations community. So, yeah, a lot of, you know, untold stories, unfortunately, with, you know, the origins and beginnings of various civil rights movements and those intersects intersectionalities.   Michael Hingson  09:39 Yeah, because in the case of, say, people with blindness, the perceptions were different. Well, they can't do anything so we'll just really discount them. They need to stay at home and not stir anything up. And occasionally, some did and have had some successes at it, but still Oh, there are so many issues dealing with people who are different and it doesn't matter whether it's blindness or any other kind of disability, someone of a different color or whatever. A lot of the issue is that it's still fear. You know, we've just fear people who are different than we. Yes, yes. Now let's talk about you specifically. I mean, if we're going to talk about you, we got to recognize the fact that you're as normal as they come you like bourbon?   Coby Williams  10:30 I am a bourbon boy I love bourbon. completed most of the Bourbon Trail and the kind of the greater Louisville, area of Louisville, Kentucky, and I have sampled I've lost count but several dozen different labels at this point. However not all at one time. That's that's probably want to point out yes, that's that's helpful. But yes, I love her Barbie.   Michael Hingson  11:01 What's your favorite?   Coby Williams  11:02 Oh, I can't do just one i Yeah. I can give you a four or five that I enjoy. Love Woodford Reserve, Eagle rare Buffalo Trace. Weller's special reserve, and I'll give I love wild turkey. I like Wild Turkey as well. So bit of variety there. But yeah, I can't pick just one. And I like Maker's   Michael Hingson  11:31 Mark. But I also definitely like, Woodford and and a number of others. Of course, there's always the old common Jim Beam. Oh, yes, yes. And a few years ago, it seems to me as I recall, there was some sort of an accident and a Jim Beam, whether it was a distillery or a shipment or something caught fire, and that had to put a dent in everything for a while. And we were wondering, Where's our next bourbon coming from? But we did survive.   Coby Williams  12:00 Yeah, they had some I think, tornadoes over over the years that has affected their supply chain, too. So and as we know, good bourbon takes several years to to make. I know there's naming some bourbons are only aged for six months in the year two and that I need six, seven plus years on my bourbon.   Michael Hingson  12:27 Well, yeah. There's always secrets. But that's more of a blended thing as I recall.   Coby Williams  12:34 Yes. I think you're right.   Michael Hingson  12:35 I think you're right. However, just just demonstrating that, that we all we all have great tastes, and then there are those who don't like bourbon. And that's okay. We love them in our world as well. Yes. Yes. Which is, which is really important. Well, you have been very much involved in diversity and equity and inclusion, and, and really trying to advance it, what does all of that mean to you?   Coby Williams  13:04 Oh, wow. Um, and, you know, even to that point, I know that, particularly within the past couple of years, I think there's a fairly limited understanding of D, E, and I, and equity and who and all that that involves, and, you know, there are what I call kind of the big eight of which includes, you know, age, stability, race, ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation, socio economic status, and religion. And, you know, within those kinds of communities or populations, there's the haves and the have nots on either sides of that, that fence, if you will, and there's a lot of intersectionalities, you know, even within those groups, I do say, in my experience, opinion and observation that race does cut through each one of those. However, it's also not to me about the oppression Olympics, and you know, it's just who are the half knots? Why and how do they become that and how can that be, you know, corrected addressed or at the very least mitigated is, you know, you know, when, when I speak about social impact, that's really just a fancy word for a lot of the ugly things in this world. And, you know, when we talk about issues which in my world an issue is a problem with a solution. Ultimately, in our it is those folks, you know, on the margins or who have been placed in the margins that are, you know, catching the most Yeah. And so that's where generally speaking, a lot of the focus of my work is really concentrated on at the end of the day.   Michael Hingson  15:10 Tell me a little bit more about what you do then and what your work is, if you would, please.   Coby Williams  15:14 Yeah, thank you. Um, so I'm the owner and founder of New reach community consulting. New reach is a small business that provides Public Affairs, consulting services to help organizations connect with communities for important causes. And very proudly new reach is also a B Corp certified business, B Corp is considered to be the gold standard for demonstrated social and environmental impact. New reach is part of, at this point about 5000. B Corp in the entire world. And one of only about a baker's dozen in Ohio, and about the same black owned B corpse in the entire United States. And the nature of new reaches work is really doing all things that I call community touching to be behind the scenes or in front of the scene. So it's developing strategies and approaches and implementing those at times, to help organizations engage with communities, the organizations that I work with, or primarily public sector, so local, state, and occasionally federal government, as well as nonprofits, or philanthropic type of organizations, be it foundations, or just kind of community groups who might not have a formal structure, but they're trying to do some good in those communities. And, you know, the what my work looks like, in a more practical sense, is stakeholder outreach and community engagement, strategic planning and implementation, issue, advocacy, capacity building, and messaging and communications are kind of the general kind of lanes or how my work looks like. And during those those activities,   Michael Hingson  17:19 would you tell me and our listeners maybe a few stories about some of the things that you've done the successes that you've had, or attempts to have an impact on, on society? In that regard?   Coby Williams  17:31 Yes, sure. It can look in a variety of ways, one of which is working with a local government to help engage the community for the development of their climate action plan. So, you know, who are the communities again, generally casting the most hell are generally the marginalized communities, typically around social, socio economic class, and our rate, race and ethnicity. So I worked with the local government to help engage that members of those communities to see this is what the city came up with, as far as their climate action plan. Does this resonate with you? Does this mean anything to you? How would you prioritize these different activities that are being considered to be implemented? And, you know, more importantly, you know, how can we engage you or the city to engage you to help, you know, help them implement these plans, and something I'm very proud of, I didn't have a direct role in this, but the community actually pushed back and said, you know, these, these goals and the climate action plan are not aggressive enough. And more needs to be done, you know, we're already behind the eight ball, you know, nationally, or just kind of as a human race, more needs to be done. And get I didn't have direct involvement in that piece of it, but did smile when I read about that in the news that the city actually said, you know, what, yes, we can and should do more to help offset some of these, these challenges that are communities are facing as a result of climate change. So that's just one example of that, certainly a weighty issue, but of how communities can be engaged and be empowered to help them in their communities and in a better place.   Michael Hingson  19:29 How do we continue to deal with the whole issue of climate change when some of our elected officials and I won't call them leaders because I don't regard them as really leading but they come back and they say there's no such thing as climate change, or we're not going to find it. How do we get beyond that?   Coby Williams  19:48 You know, I'll start with a with I think the messaging has has evolved. I did some work in the past. Um, at the time was just environmental movement. Now it's kind of known as the environmental sustainability movement. And, you know, once upon a time, that movement kind of focused on what I call the the birds, bees and trees. And, you know, that really only resonated with and still does a finite population, when you really talk about that, you know, the topic in that way. And the messaging was also about saving the planet, certainly, when I grew up, I'm an 80s. Baby, that was a thing as helped save the planet, and the messaging really evolve, because at the end of the day, the planet does not need to be saved, the planet was around for billions of years before humans were a thing, and it will be around for billions of years afterwards. So it was really kind of an arrogant message. We don't need to save the planet, we need to save ourselves, we need to, you know, in a way that being custodians of the planet, so that we can live on it, that's really the more accurate message. And then it became more about sustainability. So that messaging has thankfully evolved, and it's more, it's more broad, you know, it's more so safe air and clean water, because who can be against that, that kind of brightens the message and the thinking around it. But you know, to your point, there still are folks who are anti facts. And, you know, my personal philosophy is I usually start with facts, and then that's where you can get into perspectives. But if we can't agree that it's currently July, then, you know, we can't have a conversation with with one another. And I want to have conversations with people who agree that is currently July, if you think it's December, and there's you know, three feet of snow outside, then you just, you can't be a productive, productive participant of this conversation. So I really do think that, you know, at least conceptually, it's having the conversations and the actions with folks who were really being a part of a factual based conversation, as opposed to over acquiescing to people who still want to say, Well, no, it's actually December, and there's 10 feet of snow outside. I think a lot of that is effort in futility. And sometimes, I think a lot of times, it's an intentional diversionary tactic. You know, we're trying to convince folks of this, and quite literally the world is on fire. So, you know, a lot of that might be kind of philosophical, but at least that's kind of my approach is going to where there's actual energy and attention and respect given to an issue. And, you know, looking for the people who are looking for you. And, you know, really starting to work there. Unfortunately, a lot of time, some people will never be on board, but I, you know, one monkey suit and stop a show, and, you know, go to where the energy is.   Michael Hingson  23:15 The problem is, it's happening way too often that one does stop the show. And how do we? How do we get beyond that?   Coby Williams  23:25 That's a fantastic question. You know, I'm a classically trained grassroots community organizer, and, you know, the essence of organizing is building power to to make a difference and to make a change. And at the core of that is largely people power, because you're usually outnumbered. You're usually out resourced, you're usually going up against a lot of systems. And, you know, the work itself is incremental. But I do believe in the in the power of doing that. And you had a conversation with a friend and in many ways, a mentor recently, the reality of a lot of the work that myself or others have been involved with one way to view it is it's really a tour of duty. I am not aware of any issues, certainly no issue that I've been involved with that completely get wrapped up. Certainly not during during my lifetime, you pick the issue and, you know, things that you thought were settled weren't quite settled. We look at you know, what, regardless of where you fall on that issue, the recent decision of the Supreme Court with you know, Roe versus Wade, there's people generations ago who thought that was kind of a settled issue. So, you know, say that to say that, you know, I think that some effort any effort does make a difference. However, the reality is unfortunate reality is you you, you just want to tour of duty, that issue likely will not be settled. You just do what you can with, with who you can and the moment that you're given,   Michael Hingson  25:07 it certainly isn't going to be settled for a while. And we, it we find in an interesting situation, I'm starting to hear a little bit more in the news. Let's take Roe v. Wade. Yes, I'm hearing a little bit more in the news, that the the conservative arm of this whole discussion, wants to get back to conservative religious principles and bringing God back into our states and so on. And what amazes me about that is that these are some of the same people who, who talk about religious freedom, man, separation of church and state, but when they opened those discussions, what are they doing? They're not separating church and state. And that is, it is so unfortunate. The the message becomes hypocrisy related in some way. hypocritical.   Coby Williams  26:07 Yeah, absolutely. That's, you know, I am. Yeah, I'm an issue based person, I don't, you know, bleed D or R and, you know, I believe, what do the issues call for, you know, issues a problem with a solution. But, you know, it does, you know, really just don't understand the hypocrisy, or the lack of consistent political policy agenda or platform. You know, it can't be, you know, separation of church and state yet, we need to bring, you know, God or once God back into the discussion, it can't be, you know, over acquiescing to capitalistic structures at the expense of workers. And, you know, it's just the continuous hypocrisy from, you know, sometimes literally, from one day to another, or one week to another, I just, you know, I just really struggle with that. And, you know, I can, you know, it's helped me understand the position and the consistency of it.   Michael Hingson  27:25 Well, so here's another one to really make life a challenge for you. You mentioned a while ago, the Big Eight, the big eight things that go into dei and so on, did you notice what's missing out of that big eight? So to be fair, you named eight different things, and not once, even though persons with disabilities make up roughly 25% of our population. disability isn't included in that.   Coby Williams  27:53 Yeah. And into my understanding of that fall under the ability under the Social identifier?   Michael Hingson  28:06 Well, I don't know whether I can, can concur with that. The bottom line is that when we talk about diversity, and we talk about the different groups, we never discussed, the concept of persons with disabilities. It's, it is some social, but it's social with everyone. And it's it's very much with with a part of disabilities and a significant part, a physical issue, but yet it's not discussed. And one of my favorite stories about that, in an illustration of it, is that in 2004, when Kerry was running for president, and we were living in Northern California, and the carry for president, people open an office in San Rafael would California which was about seven miles eight miles from where we lived. And a person in a wheelchair went by because there had been an announcement that once the office opened, there was going to be a party. And when the office opened, and everyone started to learn about this person in the chair happened to drove by and noticed that there were stairs going up to the second floor where the office was located, but there was no elevator. And he pointed that out. And that became very visible in the news because he and others said, well, but we can't come to be at the at the event, the celebration and so on. And the carry people said, Well, yeah, we're gonna work on it. We're aware of it, we understand it, we're gonna fix it. And as these people then pointed out the the people in chairs, but we're not able to be there and be a part of the party. And that's the issue is it's a lot more than a social kind of thing. There are so many examples of blind people, for example, who grow up in And they're told by educators and so called professionals in the field, Oh, you don't need to learn braille, because you can listen to books, you can listen to information, audio is available, you can listen to it on your computer with synthetic speech. And the question that I and others ask us, then why don't we teach sighted kids to read and we don't emphasize teaching braille to blankets. The problem is, it goes well, beyond just a social stigma, it's still a total lack of inclusion.   Coby Williams  30:33 Great, brilliant, thank you for sharing that. Yeah, I absolutely include that with my, you know, working understanding of that both physical and cognitive ability with within my, my definition of the Big Eight, if you will, specific with with ability. I recently did, Jesse Cole in intensive experience with members, leaders within the, the disabled community to, to learn more about that over the course of a few months. And you know, to be more cognizant, and aware and sensitive to that, even within my own work and on, you know, personal understanding. And, you know, one thing that's really interesting too, is so, you know, kind of the, the world went online, within the past upwards of two plus years, and a lot of the tools that we're using are new to some communities, but they were kind of a necessity for others. And, you know, but oftentimes, when we do use tools, such as the resumes of the world, they often don't accommodate members of those that community who have, you know, the disabled community who have, you know, so a lot of ironies kind of in, you know, the, how the tools are used, if they are used, and, you know, big fan of yielding to and, you know, being humble to folks who might be more knowledgeable and experienced in those areas. So, you know, I have tried to be intentional about that, like, hey, yeah, you know, we're using these tools, but are they accommodating the folks who, you know, we're using them for years, years prior to so we'll see   Michael Hingson  32:29 what's really ironic about that, and you raise a really good point. And so I'll deal with it in terms of disabilities, but I bet we can take it in other places where we can actually but what's what's really ironic is that as we have become a more technologically based race, and especially will will say in this country, and as we have brought more things online, and created electronic environments to present those things, it in reality is incredibly much easier to make information available to persons with disabilities, because now, there there is audio, there are also for blind people refreshable braille displays, the internet could be constructed or websites could be constructed. So that persons who can't use a mouse say, persons who happen to be quadriplegic and can't move a mouse with their hands can have better access and that the websites can be created because the guidelines have been created to do so. The the ability to make websites much more inclusive, is there yet 98% of websites are not demonstrating any ability or demonstrating any specific effort to make them accessible. And if a lot of those websites are accessible, is simply by accident, because they're very simple websites and don't have a lot of the more complex coding and so on. But there we are, like books. The reality is, there are so many ways that information could be presented in an inclusive way. But we're getting further and further away from doing that, which is extremely unfortunate.   Coby Williams  34:22 Yes, yeah. To that point, when I was going through the the intensive learning experience I mentioned with the disabled community, one of the instructors or leaders mentioned that she has never seen personally experienced a website that had triple A compliant so there's a there's an A rating, which is the lowest double A which is mid range. And she had personally never experienced a triple A across whether it's public sector or private sector or Um, and you know, that's that's pretty telling, right that we're going into something web 3.0. But we still haven't gotten up to snuff in terms of kind of the, just the basics.   Michael Hingson  35:14 Well, as early as 2010, for example, the Obama administration saw just say the government made a commitment to create standards for governments and contractors, and so on, at least, to make sure that websites and all of their information was available. But yet, it still hasn't happened. And it's 12 years, there's so many other things we we have seen the advent of quiet cars and hybrid vehicles and so on. And those vehicles when they're quiet, then mean that some of us won't hear them. And it took finally the National Institute of Highway and Traffic Safety NITSA to come along and discover that the accident rate across the board was 1.5 times higher regarding quiet vehicles and hybrid vehicles and pedestrians than regular internal combustion engines. Point being it isn't just a blind people that rely on those engine noises we all do. And yet, it is still something that today, the final standard to make it a requirement for vehicles to make some sort of annoys hasn't been promulgated by the government. Even though the law was passed the pedestrian enhancement Safety Act was passed in 2011, or signed in 2011. To make that a requirement, it's it's unfortunate, we still make life so difficult. And I'm not saying that to pick on on you in any way. But but rather to say we need to recognize the need to be more inclusive. So the big eight probably really ought to be the big nine. But you know, that's, that's still an issue that probably people need to address because it still comes down to being afraid of what's different from what we experienced regularly.   Coby Williams  37:18 Absolutely, point point take and then have some familiarity with that. I'm the owner of a hybrid car and it freaked me out. When I turned on a test drive. I didn't think the car was on I was inside the car going to operate it. And I heard nothing. I had to go out and ask for help. Can you can you hear what's going on? Oh, no, they say it's, it's it's quiet like that when you know, the the engines that run when the engines are running? Yeah, yeah.   Michael Hingson  37:48 Well, and one of my pet gripes is the Tesla vehicles, they're totally quiet. But the big issue is or a another big issue. And Tesla doesn't make the make noise yet. But another big issue is you really control most of it from a touchscreen, doesn't that take your eye off the road to need to read the screen and do things on the screen, Tesla would say but we're automating a lot of the the normal driving tasks, which is true. But still, we're encouraging people to look at the screen, rather than utilizing other senses like audio information, to give people what they need to be able to more effectively drive the car and make that touchscreen or parts of it for passengers accessible. So that people other than those who look at the screen can sit in the passenger seat and tune the radio like any other passenger would do in any other vehicle that isn't so touchscreen oriented.   Coby Williams  38:52 You know, we're talking about technology. And you mentioned kind of the audio system devices earlier. I'm curious to know your your take on say the the Alexa's and the Google devices of the world. And where are you you see that as potentially being helpful or or a hinderance or anything in between?   Michael Hingson  39:16 Well, I think that devices like Google Home Alexa and so on, make it possible for all of us to more effectively interact with information. So I use And primarily, although I have both, but I use primarily the Amazon Echo device here. I don't want to use that other word because otherwise it'll talk.   Coby Williams  39:43 Yeah. Yeah, no. Actually, I can't even commercial sometimes.   39:49 Oh, I know. Actually, I've changed it from Alexa to computer but I turned the volume down so it won't really talk but but the reality is that it did it gives me some access to things that save me a lot of time, whether whichever device I use, I happen to be in front of, I can ask it to give me information about one subject or another, I can turn the lights on and off, I can learn my alarm system. And all that is doubly relevant for me because my wife happens to be a person in a wheelchair. So a lot of those things she can't easily do, either. And so the fact is that we both take a lot of advantage of having those devices. And I think they're extremely valuable to have. And that's actually kind of what I was getting at, that those same technologies and techniques could be put in vehicles in a more significant way. Or take the Apple iPhone, and it's speech technology, voiceover, or Android phones and their speech technology, TalkBack. And why is it that we don't have automobiles providing us much more voice output? Rather than dealing with the touchscreen? Why is it that the Alexus don't default, to providing verbal information, output wise, much less me being able to provide information and command of the vehicle input wise with my voice? And it doesn't matter whether you're blind or sighted or whatever? Why is it that we're not taking a lot more advantage today? Of a lot of the technology that is already developed? And part of the answer is we're locked into the way we've always done it, like we've talked about before, and we just don't change there. Yeah. And I think it is something that we really ought to look at, over time, and see how we can and when and how, but think the houses are there. But to make a concerted effort to make a change. I work for a company called accessibe. And one of the values of accessory is it's a very scalable technology that makes internet websites more accessible. It started with an artificial intelligent widget, as we call it an AI widget that can look at a site and add a lot of coding to the browser. And rather than doing it at the website, and but that makes the browser think that the website is more accessible, does it? Does it do everything? No, it doesn't. Because AI hasn't progressed that far. But it does a lot. That plus the other aspects of accessibility that are manually controllable can make all the access needs of a website available. But yet, well not. But yet, so excessive B was formed intentionally with the idea that over time, we need to get rid of the accessibility gap. As I said, 98% of all websites tend not to be accessible. And we're not changing that excessively, inexpensively begins to change that. So accessibe has a goal of making the entire internet world accessible by 2025. It's a very aggressive goal. And there are people who still stick with the idea that, well, we got to manually code things because that's the only way to completely do the job. And if we look at a lot of the websites that the manual coders produce, it's not necessarily doing the job either. But the reality is, it's fear that prevents things from happening sooner than they are or cures.   Coby Williams  43:35 So I'm not sure how familiar or knowledgeable you are about, you know, what's the metaverse and web 3.0? But curious to know, you know, you're taking on it a lot of the AMA techie by the way, but a lot of the things I've been reading and following. As we're talking kind of comes to mind, it seems to be largely based on you know, a visual experience, you know, there's the Oculus, you'll be able to see people doing this and doing that. And you know, your thoughts on maybe what are some of the possibilities from your perspective, for that or even cautions that you might have as that technology gets gets developed in ways that it can be most most useful for a variety of people?   Michael Hingson  44:21 Well, that's why I say the big a really needs to be the big nine until we really bring disabilities into the conversation. We're not going to change it. And there there are things that that in theory, web 3.0 And the new web content accessibility guidelines as web 3.0 comes out, will do. But will they be implemented? You can make all the changes that you want but until the conversation truly includes persons with disabilities, truly understands and includes those needs and makes it a part of what we do think These aren't going to change, here's a better way to look at it. There are a number. And it's a relatively small number of technological companies that really control the internet. You've got Microsoft or, for example, you have an Apple app, Amazon, Google, and a few others. And let's, let's go to the internet WordPress. Tell me one of them. That makes true inclusion and accessibility part of what they do right from the outset. And I'll help you the answer is not. Microsoft comes out with new versions of Windows or Microsoft a few years ago came out with a competitor to zoom, Google or Microsoft Teams. And yet, it took a while to make the app accessible. For persons with disabilities, for blind people on a PC, it came out actually as an accessible app first. But the bottom line is, it should have been done natively right from the outset. And no one disagrees with that. But it doesn't happen. The iPhone when it was first developed, was not accessible. It took the threat of a lawsuit to get Apple to deal with that, even so now that if you go buy an iPhone, it is accessible. And all of the parts of an iPhone will verbalize, but there's nothing that guarantees that apps will have any level of accessibility, you know, I can go through any number of examples, the so until the conversation changes, then we're not going to see the real change that we want to have. And the reality is that the conversation can change. And it will not only benefit, those of us who really totally depend on it, but it will help the entire world. The fact is, you can talk all day about how much more you can see with what will happen with web 3.0, and so on. But the reality is, eyesight is only one sense that we all have. And if we don't really begin to learn to use all of our other senses, in conjunction with eyesight for those of us who have it. And if we don't accept that not everyone uses eyesight, and there's nothing wrong with that and doesn't make us lesser beings, then we're not going to change the the whole situation and become an inclusive society. Yes, you're here, but that we can do? Well, for you. Have you always wanted to do what you're doing now?   Coby Williams  47:40 I? Short answer is, yes, I didn't know that you could make a career out of it. I, you know, I was was a super volunteer. That's kind of how I got my start, if you will, as a as a tween just, you know, volunteer stuff around the community, be self organized, or just getting involved in more formal programs or what have you. And, you know, when you when you do more, you get asked, get asked to do more. But I was in the IT field professionally, prior to doing what I'm doing now. And I, you know, again, didn't realize you could do a career out of it. It's just it, I considered it my work, you know, do it on the lunch hour or, you know, off the clock, but, you know, I can just consider I consider now my vocation and my craft, but I quite literally didn't know, you know, realize that it was a a profession. And in that regard,   Michael Hingson  48:51 what's a common myth of that you can say that people have about what you do?   Coby Williams  48:58 Oh, well, there's a few. Um, I think one is that, you know, I call my work as Public Affairs, which, you know, just kind of means I work with the public in a variety of ways that it is not. As I say, it's not just event planning, you know, oftentimes, folks, they focus on the winning the, where, you know, so what, you know, give us a date and a time, be it, you know, clients or what have you, and although that is a part of the work, that's the nature of the work for public affairs, when you're engaging with communities, that's just a means to an end. And that there's many different ways to engage with communities. So that's, that's a misnomer. Or my sometimes I say, frenemies and, and public relations whom I work with, you know, pretty regularly, but it's almost like a Venn diagram. There's there's some overlap between public relations and and Public Affairs, but there's ultimately different in games as well. Whereas I would argue, you know, public relations is kind of it's it's, you know, it's painting the room, it's, you know, decorating, it's accessorizing the room, and public affairs is kind of well, how does how do people receive it? Do they receive it is what they wanted in the first place? How do you get to accommodating that room? So that's those are a couple of common misnomers in terms of the nature of the work. And, you know, again, a lot of friends or family, you might think, oh, you know, Kobe is in politics. And it's, you know, I do have a background in legislative affairs, as well as, you know, grassroots community organizing and consulting. So I have been on each side of those, those tables. However, that's an oversimplification for, for the nature of my work, policy over politics, and, you know, issues over over party. So those are kind of a common, you know, myths that I try to dispel. Often,   Michael Hingson  51:11 there is nothing, it seems to me, no matter what we say about Washington and politics, but there's nothing like going to DC and walking the halls of Congress, and meeting with elected officials and talking about issues when they're willing to do that. It's an awesome experience to be in, in DC, where, you know, all this stuff happens. And it's a lot of fun to do.   Coby Williams  51:34 Yes, yes, at one point in my career, DC was a kind of a third home for me, I was there at least every two to three months, doing advocacy and or lobbying work, and no couple of state houses around the country and city halls and respective cities as well. And you know, a lot of my work, certainly in his current capacity I look at as connecting the say that the main streets and the Martin Luther King avenues with the, you know, City Hall avenues. And you know, what, what does that what does that work look like? Or what could that look like to move communities and move issues forward.   Michael Hingson  52:17 And it's really great when you find people who are willing to learn and explore and recognize that you have some different experiences than they do, and they want to really understand you. And I have found that any number of times in Washington, when meeting with people, and it's so cool when that happens?   Coby Williams  52:37 Yes, yes, absolutely.   Michael Hingson  52:39 So you have, I am sure been mentored by people that helped you move along, and so on. Who's your favorite mentor who really mentored you?   Coby Williams  52:51 Oh, wow. I had a teacher in junior Junior High in high school, Mr. Holloway, who I believe is still still with us. I actually came to mind about a couple of months ago. And I sent him a note online through through Facebook, just to thank him. I don't think he ever realized the impact that he had on my life just as a student, I had him for homeroom and high school. And he also taught history as well as African American history, which, you know, sadly, is an elective in most school school systems. And I remember the first day of class, I think it was just kind of American or colonial colonial histories, as I like to say, and you know, first day of class, we all have our textbooks out and you know, we're just ready to learn. And he says, Well, you're gonna put those away, ain't nothing but lies in them anyway. And it was, wow, you know, just just a 1617 year old kid, and, you know, everyone your thoughts, everyone just drops their textbooks when they're on the ground. And he taught just kind of the off, you know, what I got from it, just off authenticity. And, you know, that just that, that stuck with me, ran track a little bit in high school and coach T. Jimmy Turner, believe he is still with us and was just a very graceful, humble. He asked a lot from you, but in a very way that was, he wanted the best for you very respectful, and the lessons that I still carry with me off of the track, and he really cared about us and for many of us, quite frankly, we weren't exposed to male figures or role models in our lives. A lot of us really looked up to him and never wanted to, you know, disappoint him, on or off the track. So those were two, you know, people who I considered were definitely influential in, in my life, and certainly in those kinds of young and impressionable years, and, you know, lessons I still think about often and carry with me now, personally and professionally.   Michael Hingson  55:27 Isn't it interesting? How often, we remember teachers that were a great influence on us. A lot of people may say that they weren't necessarily charismatic, but the reality is they loved what they did. That got passed on to all of us, because I remember a number of my teachers and talk about them. I know, in my book, Thunder dog, we we talked about the Kerbal Shimer who I met, who was my sophomore geometry teacher, and we still talk. And I remember any number of my other teachers, which is really, I think, important and cool. And I'm glad that they were a part of my life, because they definitely had an effect on me. So I'm with you. Yeah. Yeah. Let me ask this, if you could meet and talk with any historical figure, who would that be? Oh,   Coby Williams  56:16 wow. And this is coming from a from a from a nerd and history history? Well,   Michael Hingson  56:22 that's why I asked.   Coby Williams  56:24 Oh, the name that immediately comes to mind is the late great. Dr. Martin Luther King. And I think my opinion is, regardless of what you think of him, it's probably still he's underappreciated. For one of the most documented figures, certainly in American history, be books that he wrote personally, or people close to him wrote about him, or, you know, we want to go down what what the government, you know, kind of kept kept tabs on extremely well documented person, but oftentimes for nefarious reasons. His his words have been twisted, his ideologies have been, you know, taken out of context. And, you know, I think he's a fascinating figure, because, you know, Dr. Cornel West says that his you know, Dr. King's image has become center, become like Santa Claus, Santa Claus, classified, I believe it's a term that he uses, but just the grace in the patients that he that he had. And, you know, he, you know, when he was taken from us, you know, following fifth 14 years of being, you know, jailed, brought bombed, harassed, etc, etc, and ultimately, you know, shot in the face as I like, like the telephone see, we have a 34% approval rating. And, you know, he's lionized now, but, you know, get he was taken, taken from us, which I think is really not mentioned in that light. Just, you know, just to have 15 minutes, with the man in person just to absorb the source of that patience and hope. And, you know, which is something that, you know, I think we all get benefit from,   Michael Hingson  58:37 I'm with you. And it makes perfect sense. I think it's, again, our historical figures, when we really study them do set a lot of examples that that we ought to emulate then, and it's so bad that his approval rating when he was alive was not higher than it was. But again, it's all about growth, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. So you asked me to ask you a question. I've got to ask, which is, what's one insult that you've had in your life that you're proud of? You brought that up?   Coby Williams  59:14 Yeah. You know, I'm, I'm known. As I say, To Talk That Talk. I do challenge. I'm going to be a boat rocker. And I've, you know, that goes back. My mother will tell you that's just always been a part of who I am. And it's not to be provocative for the sense of being provocative. I just question why things are, and suddenly, when I was younger, I knew that's who I was, but might have been a little kind of felt bad about it at times, but I've fully embraced that. You know, I am a I'm an activist who happens to be a consultant. You will find very few consultants, particularly for what I do who who will say that publicly? They might maybe whisper that in closed rooms? No, you know, what you're getting with with Kobe with with new reach, and it is to challenge status quo as to challenge, you know, why are things the way they are? How can they be better? How can they be? How can you help put, you know, individuals or communities in a better place? And that does require being provocative, you know, not just for the sake of being, you know, I mentioned the way great Dr. King, he was considered provocative. You know, he was talking about justice and, you know, in the land of the free and that was considered to be, you know, rocking the boat. So, for me, it's all very relative, a lot of folks who we might look up to, it's afterwards it's after they've gone through hell, sometimes after they've been taken from us as because they did have a vision and they question things. And I, I'm not shy about doing that, but it's for a reason. And the spirit behind that is to put things people situations in a better place.   Michael Hingson  1:01:15 What are three books you would recommend that people ought to read?   Coby Williams  1:01:20 One I recently read is 4000 weeks it, wow, very powerful book, the premise of the book is really, maybe a paradigm shift of how to live a fulfilled life, with the time that you're given on this earth, and it really puts your own life in perspective, and you don't have to give too much of the book away. But, you know, we're not all that important in the grand scheme of things, and that's okay. The power of now is a very powerful book. That's, that's the guy she want to reread. I think that's a book that, arguably you might be able to read annually and still get something out of it. And it might might humble you in a bit. And, wow, a third. Think anything again, the late great Dr. King, he has auto biographies. He did, you know, write a few books while he was with us on this earth. And I think you can't go wrong with anything that he has. He has written. And, you know, so that might be cheating a bit. That's, that's, that's two plus. But those are some that I would recommend via titles and or authors.   Michael Hingson  1:02:50 You said something that's really interesting. You mentioned the power of now, isn't it great when you find a book that you read, that you can reread? And that you can reread and reread? And every time you discover something new in it?   Coby Williams  1:03:04 Yes. And what I like about is that, you know, the books I mentioned, aren't so much prescriptive their experiences, you know, I think that so many things that we want, okay, what are the three tips to life given to me, and it's, you know, that's just, that's not how things that's not how it works. That's not how it works. Life is an experience. And with experiences, you can get something out of it. Each time you kind of go through it.   Michael Hingson  1:03:32 Well, before we wrap up, we have to go over one more revelation regarding you and that is that you are a fan of basketball and specifically Yes, absolutely. The Los Angeles Lakers.   Coby Williams  1:03:44 Yes, absolutely. Like you know, I I originally grew up kind of watching baseball at the time, particularly in the early 90s. It was kind of that transition where it was less baseball, more NBA on TV. And I wasn't particularly a fan of any one team. But I just remember catching a game probably was on NBC at the time of the Lakers. It was kind of the later years of the lake show and it was wow they played differently than any other team they have fast breaks continuously and they run the floor and magic just being magic you know with with the ball and it just it really resonated with me it wasn't just throwing the ball in the post and you know, taking 20 dribbles with with the center of the power for no they were dishing the ball all over the court and just the razzle dazzle so I think that's what really got me was was the Lake Show and been a lifelong fan. Ever since. Yeah. And hoping for a better season this year.   Michael Hingson  1:04:58 Oh, I'm hoping for a better overseas. I must, I must admit that, for me, getting attracted to the Lakers to the Dodgers and to others, I got spoiled by the announcers la always had the best announcers. And in my view, I mean, there's nobody who could be Vin Scully and with the Lakers, Chick Hearn, although I also got to listen in Boston to Johnny most but still, no one did a game like Chick Hearn. And yeah, yeah, it was just kind of amazing. indican Berg out here also, who did the angels and, and did some of the football stuff as well. So we missed them all. But they're there. They're what attracted me in a way because I, I learned sports from those people, which was great. Well, I really want to thank you for being a part of this today and being with us. If people want to reach out to you and learn more about you. How can they do that?   Coby Williams  1:06:02 Yeah, thank you, you can check me out. nourishes website is new reach community.com. Or you can also follow me on LinkedIn where I'm pretty active on there as well. You can just search for Coby that C O B Y C Williams, and I'd love to connect with folks.   Michael Hingson  1:06:28 Well, great, and I hope you who are listening. We'll reach out. I think we had a great discussion. And I think we've given each other and lots of people who are listening, a great deal to think about which is what makes this whole podcast series a lot of fun. So thank you for being here with us. And I want to thank you all for listening. You're welcome to reach out to me, we'd love to hear what you think. Feel free to email me at Michaelhi at accessibe.com Accessibe is A C C E S S I B E.com. Please, wherever you're listening to this podcast, give us a five star rating. We appreciate your ratings and your comments. They're invaluable and they help us. If you know of anyone else who want to be on the podcast and Coby you included please feel free to let us know or reach out or provide introductions. But once again, Coby, thank you very much for being here and being a part of unstoppable mindset.   Coby Williams  1:07:25 You're welcome Michael, thank you so much for the invitation and be well.   Michael Hingson  1:07:34 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com. accessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

And the pickles are fermenting. More of Chick Hearn.

Doc opens talking about fermenting (maturing) in sports, art and surgery. His examples are Chick Hearn interviewing a young Kobe Bryant in sports, Quincy Jones teaching Michael Jackson in art. Some "Klapper Vision" for Karl-Anthony Towns' current calf injury.

EPISODE 46 A-Block (1:46) SPECIAL COMMENT: Trump just convicted himself of Obstruction of Justice. (2:50) The big debate within DOJ about charging him is about "consciousness of guilt." Could he have NOT known he had illegal possession of documents (including one detailing the nuclear capabilities of another nation)? If as The Washington Post reports, he actually packed the boxes himself, he knew - and the debate is over. (3:45) And to make it worse, he tried to suborn perjury, to get his attorney to sign a document in February saying he had returned all the documents (4:38) Which could lead to a conspiracy, since he DID get another attorney to sign the same kind of document in June (5:36) An entirely separate second path of Obstruction and Conspiracy was opened by his conversation with Maggie Haberman about the Kim Jung-Un letter (7:12) All of which explains the timing of his suit against CNN (8:45) And his threat to sue the 1/6 Commission, which may register in only one place: (9:00) CNN, where Chris Licht and John Malone have spent six months brown-nosing Conservative politicians in hopes that the leopards wouldn't eat THEIR faces. B-Block (13:17) EVERY DOG HAS ITS DAY: Whisper (14:20) POSTSCRIPTS TO THE NEWS: It's one thing to be anti-abortion and to have a news organization prove you paid for a girlfriend's abortion, but it's quite another, Herschel Walker, to then be repudiated in public by your own son. Plus the Oaf Keepers' trial starts (18:06) IN SPORTS: Albert Pujols yes, Aaron Judge no; Monday Night Football fan flattened; National Women's Soccer League devastated by new report of coach corruption (20:50) THE WORST PERSONS IN THE WORLD: Scott Jensen and Kim Kardashian compete with a Twitter Karen who can't tell the Pennsylvania Senate from a minor league baseball team. C-Block (25:19) THINGS I PROMISED NOT TO TELL: The day I met actor Walter Matthau, his improbable hobby of vocal impersonations, and the kindness he extended me that was so extraordinary that though it was the only time I met him, when he died years later, I burst into tears.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

THEY WERE DOIN' A GOLF A BLOCK (1:46) SPECIAL COMMENT: That wasn't a secret Trump Crime Family meeting at the golf course: They were doin' a GOLF (2:10) No matter who captioned the photos "Trump with Devin Nunes and Sean Hannity" it was Trump with his VP/Golf Courses and Director of Grounds. (3:35) I have witnessed Trump do this in one of his New York apartment buildings: he likes to show his employees how to do the jobs they are actually experts at. (5:40) It seemed to dovetail: 40 subpoenas! Dan Scavino! Boris Epshteyn! Seized phones! Of course they were meeting at a golf course! They were afraid of wiretaps, and everybody had their phones seized! Nope. They were doin' a GOLF (6:16) And they weren't trying to fix the Special Master case because it looks like the judge has realized she's screwed up and may walk it back. (9:08) After he lost the election Trump told people he wouldn't leave the White House. Why are we only finding this out now? Because Maggie Haberman held it for months (maybe longer) for her new book: "I'M NOT GOING TO REPORT ANY OF THIS UNTIL I GET A BOOK DEAL!" This is the third time Haberman has done this with this book alone. She joins Bob Woodward, Robert Costa, Jon Karl, and others as reporters who refused to report. (13:00) But Haberman's case is so egregious we need to know what ELSE she might be suppressing. So I think The House January 6th Committee should subpoena her to find out what she knows - or what she WILL know later when the damn book comes out. B BLOCK (16:49) EVERY DOG HAS ITS DAY: Willow (18:06) POSTSCRIPTS TO THE NEWS: J6 Committee may invite Pence and Trump today, possible new PA Secretary of State goes full 9/11 Truther, and no one was injured at the Emmys. (21:35) IN SPORTS: The continuing shame of Mike Trout's anonymity, and the death of Queen Elizabeth messes with the weekly European soccer championship. (22:38) THE WORST PERSONS IN THE WORLD: Fox's Faulkner Freaks, Ronda Santis bribes voters, Matt Gaetz mocks his opponent's autistic son. C BLOCK (28:10) THINGS I PROMISED NOT TO TELL: The day my appendix burst and it was 48 hours before I knew it so I kept working and I beat CNN in the ratings anyway and I learned how to tell Rush-To-The-Hospital Appendix Pain from the other kind so I can tell thee and John Cleese reminded me it happened to him too and to milk it for all it was worth: "You and I were dying of septicemia!"See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This week, Hulu dropped the first two episodes of "Legacy: The True Story of the Los Angeles Lakers." And while it appears on the surface to be a direct response to the fictionalized HBO adaption of Jeff Pearlman's "Winning Time," that's not exactly the case. (One doesn't whip together a 10-part documentary in a few months.) Still, it's clearly got the stamp of approval from the organization, which translates into tons of participation from people across the Lakers universe, great footage, and a host of interesting stories.But is it good?Yeah, it is! While it's fair to say the doc and director Antoine Fuqua don't go scorched earth (not a requirement for a documentary) there is early reference to the issues the Buss children will face trying to carry the legacy of their father forward, and serious screen time paid to the shortcomings of Jerry Buss as a father and a husband. Fuqua does a good job contrasting those failings against his enormous accomplishments as a businessman, his visionary thinking and the willingness to upset the apple cart in the NBA. And when those things become intertwined - when they're old enough, Buss essentially demonstrates love for his kids through business - things clearly get, and will only get more, complicated..It's certainly made pretty clear that childhood wasn't a universally happy experience for the Buss kids.Meanwhile, the doc is a reminder of what made Dr. Buss a disruptor of the NBA at the time, how different a league it was then vs. now, and the ways in which having a few people in the organization that were light years ahead of most of the competition (like Buss, Jerry West, Pat Riley, Chick Hearn) combined with top shelf talent (if you're listening to this show, you know who they are) could create a perpetual winner. Trying to cling to that legacy, though, has been a fundamental part of why the Lakers have suffered poor results (mostly) over the last decade. They haven't adapted well.Looking forward to the rest of the series.HOSTS: Andy and Brian KamenetzkySEGMENT 1: Reacting to the documentary. Is it really a response to Winning Time? What makes something more "real" than something else?SEGMENT 2: Insight into the childhood of the older Buss kids. It wasn't all moonpies and rainbows while Dr. Buss built the empire.SEGMENT 3: How Dr. Buss's success is a reminder of what has gone wrong for the Lakers of late.Support Us By Supporting Our Sponsors!Built BarBuilt Bar is a protein bar that tastes like a candy bar. Go to builtbar.com and use promo code “LOCKEDON15,” and you'll get 15% off your next order.BetOnlineBetOnline.net has you covered this season with more props, odds and lines than ever before. BetOnline – Where The Game Starts! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This week, Hulu dropped the first two episodes of "Legacy: The True Story of the Los Angeles Lakers." And while it appears on the surface to be a direct response to the fictionalized HBO adaption of Jeff Pearlman's "Winning Time," that's not exactly the case. (One doesn't whip together a 10-part documentary in a few months.) Still, it's clearly got the stamp of approval from the organization, which translates into tons of participation from people across the Lakers universe, great footage, and a host of interesting stories. But is it good? Yeah, it is! While it's fair to say the doc and director Antoine Fuqua don't go scorched earth (not a requirement for a documentary) there is early reference to the issues the Buss children will face trying to carry the legacy of their father forward, and serious screen time paid to the shortcomings of Jerry Buss as a father and a husband. Fuqua does a good job contrasting those failings against his enormous accomplishments as a businessman, his visionary thinking and the willingness to upset the apple cart in the NBA. And when those things become intertwined - when they're old enough, Buss essentially demonstrates love for his kids through business - things clearly get, and will only get more, complicated.. It's certainly made pretty clear that childhood wasn't a universally happy experience for the Buss kids. Meanwhile, the doc is a reminder of what made Dr. Buss a disruptor of the NBA at the time, how different a league it was then vs. now, and the ways in which having a few people in the organization that were light years ahead of most of the competition (like Buss, Jerry West, Pat Riley, Chick Hearn) combined with top shelf talent (if you're listening to this show, you know who they are) could create a perpetual winner. Trying to cling to that legacy, though, has been a fundamental part of why the Lakers have suffered poor results (mostly) over the last decade. They haven't adapted well. Looking forward to the rest of the series. HOSTS: Andy and Brian Kamenetzky SEGMENT 1: Reacting to the documentary. Is it really a response to Winning Time? What makes something more "real" than something else? SEGMENT 2: Insight into the childhood of the older Buss kids. It wasn't all moonpies and rainbows while Dr. Buss built the empire. SEGMENT 3: How Dr. Buss's success is a reminder of what has gone wrong for the Lakers of late. Support Us By Supporting Our Sponsors! Built Bar Built Bar is a protein bar that tastes like a candy bar. Go to builtbar.com and use promo code “LOCKEDON15,” and you'll get 15% off your next order. BetOnline BetOnline.net has you covered this season with more props, odds and lines than ever before. BetOnline – Where The Game Starts! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

On today's episode with Rob G (Robert Guerra) sitting in for Jason, the Super Producer kicks things off with a deep dive into the reports that LeBron James met with Los Angeles Lakers general manager Rob Pelinka and head coach Darvin Ham. LeBron and the Lakers brass seem to be in lock-step on a number of issues heading into next season, specifically as it relates to player accountability, adjusted roles and the belief that the offense should run through Anthony Davis. All of this sounds well and good... until you realize that it's almost impossible to execute this four-pronged plan while Russell Westbrook is on the roster. Pelinka and Ham have maintained publicly all offseason that they have no issue running it back with Russ next season, but it's clear now that they've been lying this entire time. Finally, Rob G closes the show with Day 3 of Fan Mail: Which NFL wide receiver will be a fantasy bust this season? Should Shohei Ohtani win American League MVP again? Why does he hate Tom Brady? Who is the most iconic Los Angeles broadcaster: Vin Scully or Chick Hearn? Some of these answers are spicy! Click here to subscribe, rate and review all of the latest Straight Fire with Jason McIntyre podcasts!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This week on Episode Ten of the Announcer Schedules Podcast, Mike Gill and Phil de Montmollin provide part two of a tribute to the late Vin Scully with more clips displaying the iconic style of an American treasure.In addition, the podcast previews the upcoming NFL season and discusses the implications of the new college football broadcast rights deals.  Throughout the show, a total of 79 different announcers from past and present are mentioned with an array of topics discussed including: -          More on Vin Scully's greatest calls -          Scully, the soundtrack of Los Angeles -          Longevity of Scully, Hearn & Miller -          Scully's impact on other announcers-          NFL on FOX broadcaster roster-          Week One of NFL regular season announcer pairings-          NFL Preseason announcers-          More hires for Amazon Prime Thursday Night NFL -          Implications of Big Ten television deals-          Eli Gold of Alabama Crimson Tide Radio-          New hire for ESPN College Football Gameday-          MLB Field of Dreams Game-          Dennis Eckersley retiring from booth-          Nick Faldo sign off from CBS-          Bill Walton 30-for-30-          Roxy Bernstein preview-          Keith Hernandez and the Phillies  Episode 10 announcer mentions: Vin Scully, Chick Hearn, Bob Miller, Charley Steiner, Sean McDonough, Tim McCarver, Johnny Bench, Curt Schilling, John Kruk, Craig Sager, Jack Buck, Tom McGinnis, Dick Enberg, Keith Jackson, Jon Miller, Joe Davis, Brent Musburger, Jerry Coleman, Bob Costas, Al Michaels, Marv Albert, Joe Buck, Jason Benetti, Harry Kalas, George Ofman, Wayne Larrivee, Kevin Burkhardt, Greg Olsen, Erin Andrews, Tom Rinaldi, Tom Brady, Daryl Johnston, Pam Oliver, Adam Amin, Mark Schlereth, Kristina Pink, Kenny Albert, Jonathan Vilma, Shannon Spake, Kevin Kugler, Mark Sanchez, Laura Okmin, Chris Myers, Robert Smith, Jen Hale, Troy Aikman, Mike Tirico, Bob Papa, Dan Hellie, Charles Davis, Justin Kutcher, Brandon Gaudin, Dave Pasch, Ian Eagle, Anthony Becht, Scott Graham, Ross Tucker, Kevin Harlan, Greg Papa, Taylor Rooks, Michael Smith, Gino Torretta, T.J. Rives, Jess Sims, Eli Gold, Chris Stewart, John Smoltz, Ken Rosenthal, Tom Verducci, Dennis Eckersley, Nick Faldo, Jim Nantz, Trevor Immelman, Bill Walton, Roxy Bernstein, Jay Bilas, Keith Hernandez, Tom McCarthy, Gary Cohen Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

This week on Episode Ten of the Announcer Schedules Podcast, Mike Gill and Phil de Montmollin provide part two of a tribute to the late Vin Scully with more clips displaying the iconic style of an American treasure.In addition, the podcast previews the upcoming NFL season and discusses the implications of the new college football broadcast rights deals.  Throughout the show, a total of 79 different announcers from past and present are mentioned with an array of topics discussed including: -          More on Vin Scully's greatest calls -          Scully, the soundtrack of Los Angeles -          Longevity of Scully, Hearn & Miller -          Scully's impact on other announcers-          NFL on FOX broadcaster roster-          Week One of NFL regular season announcer pairings-          NFL Preseason announcers-          More hires for Amazon Prime Thursday Night NFL -          Implications of Big Ten television deals-          Eli Gold of Alabama Crimson Tide Radio-          New hire for ESPN College Football Gameday-          MLB Field of Dreams Game-          Dennis Eckersley retiring from booth-          Nick Faldo sign off from CBS-          Bill Walton 30-for-30-          Roxy Bernstein preview-          Keith Hernandez and the Phillies  Episode 10 announcer mentions: Vin Scully, Chick Hearn, Bob Miller, Charley Steiner, Sean McDonough, Tim McCarver, Johnny Bench, Curt Schilling, John Kruk, Craig Sager, Jack Buck, Tom McGinnis, Dick Enberg, Keith Jackson, Jon Miller, Joe Davis, Brent Musburger, Jerry Coleman, Bob Costas, Al Michaels, Marv Albert, Joe Buck, Jason Benetti, Harry Kalas, George Ofman, Wayne Larrivee, Kevin Burkhardt, Greg Olsen, Erin Andrews, Tom Rinaldi, Tom Brady, Daryl Johnston, Pam Oliver, Adam Amin, Mark Schlereth, Kristina Pink, Kenny Albert, Jonathan Vilma, Shannon Spake, Kevin Kugler, Mark Sanchez, Laura Okmin, Chris Myers, Robert Smith, Jen Hale, Troy Aikman, Mike Tirico, Bob Papa, Dan Hellie, Charles Davis, Justin Kutcher, Brandon Gaudin, Dave Pasch, Ian Eagle, Anthony Becht, Scott Graham, Ross Tucker, Kevin Harlan, Greg Papa, Taylor Rooks, Michael Smith, Gino Torretta, T.J. Rives, Jess Sims, Eli Gold, Chris Stewart, John Smoltz, Ken Rosenthal, Tom Verducci, Dennis Eckersley, Nick Faldo, Jim Nantz, Trevor Immelman, Bill Walton, Roxy Bernstein, Jay Bilas, Keith Hernandez, Tom McCarthy, Gary Cohen Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Andy sits down with former Los Angeles Lakers Head Athletic Trainer – Gary Vitti – to discuss his book "32 years of Titles & Tears from the Best Seat In The House: What I Learned About Happiness, Leadership, & Greatness". Gary describes the many lessons learned from NBA greats like Pat Riley, Jerry West, Magic Johnson, Kareem, James Worthy, Byron Scott, Kobe, Shaq, Phil Jackson, & many more! Gary expands on the path to his first year with the Lakers in 1984 under head coach Pat Riley, & how the position has evolved over 32 years. Hear stories of plane rides with Chick Hearn, Pat Riley's 12+2+1 formula, the personal pain & trauma behind Magic Johnson's HIV diagnosis, getting caught between Kobe & Shaq, & the importance of the Lakers ‘85 championship. PLUS, a few tales of Kobe Bryant's world-class work ethic – including being waterboarded by Navy SEALS, & the reverse bear trap. Original Air Date: August 20, 2019.

For the 2nd episode of Dime Dropper Featuring where we feature a guest either involved in the NCAA or NBA in some capacity, we were so happy to be joined by Actor Spencer Garrett from HBO's Winning Time series on the Showtime Lakers.   Garrett goes in depth about filming the show, his cast-mates, preparation for the Chick Hearn role his childhood fandom of the Lakers & the controversy surrounding the depiction's of Chick Hearn & Jerry West's characters.    Also available on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cyq5X3_I-_M Spencer Garrett on Twitter: https://twitter.com/1SpencerGarrett Dime Dropper on Twitter: https://twitter.com/DimeDropperPod Instagram, Facebook, TikTok: @DimeDropperPod Check out all episodes of Dime Dropper Featuring: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list...  

On today's podcast I begin by talking about the positive reaction to episode 179 and Ryan in Sactown. The reality is we all need mentors and we all need positive reinforcement as we try and climb the ladder in this business. I tell stories about my early years and those that were instrumental in paving the way for my career. I discuss the impact Marv Albert and Chick Hearn had on my career and what I learned from them. I also tell the story about being on TV for the first time like it was yesterday! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The boys are joined for another awesome episode (of HBO's Winning Time coverage) by the great Spencer Garrett. Spencer plays the legendary Chick Hearn in HBO's hottest new show. From casting, to the filming process, to hoops in general the boys talk it all on an awesome show. Enjoy and hit ya free throws!

Actor Spencer Garrett joins to discuss HBO's "Winning Time" and what it means for him to play the legendary Chick Hearn. We get some insight into what goes on behind the scenes as well as what the future holds for the show... Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Actor Spencer Garrett joins Mase & Sue on the #CulturePopPodcast to talk about his role in Adam McKay's WINNING TIME on HBO. Spencer plays Lakers legendary play-by-play man Chick Hearn, and he did a lot of research into the life and career of the broadcast icon. He also talks about his work in movies like BOMBSHELL (in which he plays Sean Hannity), THE FRONT RUNNER (in which he plays Bob Woodward) and ALL THE WAY (in which he plays Walter Reuther). He is an actor's actor, and it's a great conversation.

Actor Spencer Garrett joins me to discuss his current project Winning Time: The Rise of the Lakers Dynasty on HBO to discuss taking on the role of the legendary sportscaster, Chick Hearn. Spencer has 100s of acting credits to his name and we dive into a few roles during our discussion.  Spencer and I chat about his time on Star Trek: The Next Generation as Simon Tarses in the fan-favorite episode, 'The Drumhead'. We discuss working with Patrick Stewart and what items Spencer has in his position from his Star Trek days (including his time on Voyager)  We also dive into working with Quentin Tarantino in Once Upon a Time... In Hollywood as the entertainment reporter, Allen Kincade.  We also discuss Bombshell, Murder She Wrote, why you should watch Dopesick, Dallas, Brad, and Leo, working with Jay Roach, Dustin Hoffman, Adam McKay, Jonah Hill and so much more! Our Guest, Spencer Garrett https://twitter.com/1SpencerGarrett https://www.instagram.com/spencergarrett1 https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0308208/ Hashtag Fun: Jeff dives into recent trends and reads some of his favorite tweets from trending hashtags. The hashtag featured in this episode is #BasketballAMovieOrTVShow from @WagYourTags. Tweets featured on the show are retweeted at @JeffDwoskinShow Follow Hashtag Roundup to tweet along with fun hashtags daily! https://twitter.com/HashtagRoundup Download the Hashtag Roundup app at https://app.hashtagroundup.com/ Follow Jeff Dwoskin: Jeff on Twitter: https://twitter.com/bigmacher The Jeff Dwoskin Show: https://twitter.com/JeffDwoskinShow Podcast website: https://jeffisfunny.com Instagram: https://instagram.com/JeffDwoskinShow Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Anthony welcomes Spencer Garrett, who is playing Chick Hearn on HBO's "Winning Time." Garrett takes us into preparing for the role, what's gone into some of the choices made thus far, and his favorite parts of this show. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices