Podcasts about tim is

In this episode of the IC-DISC show, I speak with Tim Loney about his transition from airline industry professional to IT services entrepreneur. He shares his path from working at Continental Airlines through major mergers to establishing Solutions Information Systems, explaining how his experience with severance packages motivated his shift into entrepreneurship. We discuss the importance of business continuity planning, particularly for companies in hurricane-prone areas. Tim tells me about a Houston client whose facilities experienced severe flooding, highlighting how proper data recovery systems made a crucial difference in their ability to resume operations. Managing sensitive data is a key topic in our conversation, as Tim's company works with high-net-worth families, family office sectors, as well as companies in a variety of industries. He explains how word-of-mouth referrals have helped build trust with these clients who require careful handling of confidential information. The conversation turns to Tim's approach to business acquisition, where he focuses on purchasing IT firms from retiring owners. He describes his method of maintaining and growing these businesses post-purchase while sharing insights about how remote management tools have transformed IT services over the past 35 years.     SHOW HIGHLIGHTS I discussed Tim's career evolution from working in the airline industry with Continental Airlines and American Express to establishing his own IT services firm, Solutions Information Systems, in Houston, Texas. Tim shared insights on how his managed IT services company has established a national presence by utilizing robust remote management tools and enterprise-class processes. We explored the importance of business continuity and rapid data recovery, highlighted by a story of a Houston-based company that faced severe flooding and required effective disaster recovery solutions. Tim's firm specializes in managing sensitive data for high-income families in construction and family office sectors, emphasizing the importance of trust and credibility built through word-of-mouth referrals. We discussed Tim's strategy for acquiring small businesses from retiring owners, focusing on enhancing the value of these businesses post-acquisition to ensure continued growth. Tim reflected on his entrepreneurial journey from modest beginnings, emphasizing the significance of diversifying income sources and the evolving importance of data protection in the digital age. The episode concluded with an exploration of the evolution of office communication over the last 35 years, showcasing the technological advancements that have redefined the IT industry.   Contact Details LinkedIn- Tim Loney (https://www.linkedin.com/in/sis-tloney/) LINKSShow Notes Be a Guest About IC-DISC Alliance About Solutions Informations Systems GUEST Tim LoneyAbout Tim TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Dave: Hey, good afternoon, Tim. Welcome to the podcast. Tim: Hi, Dave, good to see you. Dave: So where are you calling in from today? What part of the world are you in? Tim: I'm in Houston, Texas, just north of Houston, in the Tomball area. Dave: Okay. Tim: Up in our corporate headquarters for the company. Dave: Okay, and now are you a native Houstonian. Tim: I am not. I'm not a native Houstonian. I should be probably classified as a native Houstonian because I've been here for about 35 years or more. Dave: Okay. Tim: But my background is I migrated from Canada the day before my 21st birthday. Dave: Oh, you did. Tim: Yeah, I became a permanent resident here in the United States. And what caused you to want to do that? The economy was pretty bad in Canada at that time and I was working for a commercial airline that had gone through a severance package and they released me with my severance package and I said you know, maybe I should try another country, not just a job, but maybe another country. Dave: Okay, so when you came to Houston then did you stay in the airline? Tim: business I did. I worked for one of the large international airlines called Continental Airlines at the time, which has since been acquired by United Airlines. Dave: You know, to this day I can still tell a legacy Continental flight crew from a legacy United flight crew. Very different cultures, very different cultures, or, as I say, the Continental folks are nice and the United folks are not so nice. Tim: Correct, yeah, I was there during the heavy competition years between Continental Airlines and United. I was actually there in the process with Continental Airlines during a very large merger and acquisition of multiple carriers. We acquired Frontier, people Express and New York Air and put them all under the umbrella of Continental Airlines. So I was there during those years. Dave: Okay, so were you there in the late 90s. So were you there in the late 90s. Tim: I was there from 1985 to 1990. Dave: Okay, yeah, I was only asking because I'd worked at an executive search firm in the late 90s and we worked with Continental during their like, go forward initiative or move forward initiative. Tim: Yep the go forward plan with Gordon Blithoon. He was Yep. Dave: Yep, that was it. So then you left the airline business. What did you decide to go do then? Tim: So I left the airline business and I went to work for one of the largest credit card companies in the world called American Express. Dave: Okay, I think I've heard of them. Tim: Yep and because I had a lot of automation knowledge of how the airlines work. From an automation standpoint, American Express was interested in me and understanding the automation behind the airlines and travel agency systems and they brought me in to be a systems person for the airlines to help them in kind of standardizing a lot of procedures within American Express. Dave: Okay, well, that sounds like a fun opportunity. Tim: Yeah, very rewarding, very educational. I learned so much during my term at American Express. Dave: Okay, but you decided that at some point you wanted to unfurl your wings and see what you could do on your own. Is that right? Tim: unfurl your wings and see what you could do on your own. Is that right? Yeah, you know now that I look back at it. You know I was. I grew up in a family where you were encouraged to go work for a large organization and a big fortune 100 firm, and through your entire life, and leave with a gold Rolex watch and have a great retirement plan. Dave: Yeah. Tim: But as I followed that path, I found myself continuing to get severance packages over and in my experience with the Fortune 100s I received three or four severance packages and those packages kind of educated me on that. It was maybe not the right gig for me and, you know, I was smart enough to be able to exit out of the Fortune 100s and do something on my own, and that's when I decided to start my organization. Dave: Okay, and what's your company called? Tim: So my company is Solutions Information Systems Solutions IS to abbreviate it and we are a managed service provider of IT services across the United States, managing about 175 customers across the US oh wow. Dave: That's interesting. I would have thought you'd have your clients would all be in the Houston area. I guess this newfangled internet thing lets you serve clients remotely. Is that, I guess, how it works? Tim: Yeah, yeah, and we can talk a little bit about what makes us so successful, but the ability to manage and monitor and remediate issues remotely has come a long ways over the years that I've been in IT. Now it's pretty much if you can't do that, why are you in this industry, right? So yeah, and you know it's a lot of like the entire work from home program that the whole world has kind of moved to. We have that ability to do exactly all of that stuff, not only from our corporate headquarters, but remotely as well. If one of our employees needs to work from home, they can do remotely as well. If one of our employees needs to work from home, they can do that as well. So it requires a massive tool set, and I'll refer probably to our tool set a lot, because that's what makes us successful, right Is the tool set that I've been able to put together and build a toolbox full of tools to be able to manage, secure, maintain these infrastructures that we're responsible for. Dave: Well. Tim: I thought IT service firms were. Dave: I thought that was a commodity service. I thought they're all the same. Tim: Oh no, there's quite a bit of difference in how these managed service providers operate and I'll tell you, I would consider us probably in the top 100 nationally and probably the top three in our region of service providers, and the reason I kind of give us that grade and that's a grade that I've given us is that we've been at this for 25 years. I started this practice 25 years ago. I started this practice 25 years ago and over those 25 years I not only brought in enterprise class processes and procedures from my 10 years at American Express, but I've improved upon those processes and procedures over those 25 years. Dave: And we continue to improve on those processes. Okay. Well, what? Yeah, I'm guessing that you're. The clients tend to stay with you for a pretty long time. Is that like until they sell or go out of business or some significant event occurs? Absolutely. Tim: Yeah, and that and that's the type of client that we want to have in our portfolio, right? This is not a consumable product that you go and buy once and go away this is a partnership with our customers. Dave: It really is. Tim: You have to think about the IT infrastructure of any business out there. It's number one, a foundational piece of the business, and it is an instrumental piece in continuing to do business right. A lot of conversations I have are around data protection and security, and that's a lot of what we do right Is how do we protect the data that the customer has and how do we make sure that it remains secure and that nobody compromises that data or extracts that data or modifies that data that's on their infrastructure. Dave: Okay, and I'm guessing you're not trying to be the low-cost provider. Tim: We are not the low-cost provider. I wouldn't say we're the most expensive organization out there, but we are in the higher side, and the reason that we're the higher side is we bring a huge value to an organization. There is a lot of components within the IT support model that our lower competitors don't provide or don't understand, and those are the weaknesses within an organization that will cost them considerable damage to an organization if they get exposed right. Dave: Yeah. Tim: And then kind of go through those if you want to cover some of that stuff. Like let's just give an example of a business continuity plan right. If a company doesn't have a business continuity plan, that should be something that they should have in place, and they should have worked with their IT service provider or internal IT team to make sure that they've got a business continuity plan. If they don't, when an event happens, it's a total dumpster fire right, because they don't know what to do and they're very disorganized and it takes them an extremely long time to be able to recover, if they recover at all. So that's one example. Another example is compliance. There's a lot of compliance that's out there and that compliance is in place for a reason. Compliance is in there because somehow something got compromised and this is a compliance requirement that you now have to be in compliance with. It may be an access control compliance thing. It might be a reporting compliance to a legal agency. Dave: So talk to me about the first thing you refer to as the disaster recovery plan or the disaster recovery and business continuity. Okay, so my listeners love stories, so could you give me an example, like of one of your clients you know anonymously, that maybe went through a situation or maybe a company who was not a client but after they had an issue they hired. You guys give us a sense of like the elements of a really good you know continuity plan. Tim: Sure. So I'll give you an example. I had a neighbor that was in my neighborhood that you know. We would see each other at the neighborhood community pool. Our kids would play together, you know weren't real close to them. But you know you get into the conversation of having hey, what do you do by? The way, and you know, I told him I ran a managed service provider, an IT service firm, and we manage customer networks and we keep them secure. Dave: And he goes oh, okay, okay, Well, we got a guy. Tim: We got a guy he's good, he's been with me for five years. At that point, and you know, and wow, that's great. Well, if we need anything we'll call you, right, the conversation went away and that was about 15 years later. So the guy had been working for him for 20 years managing his stuff, managing his infrastructure, managing his backups, making sure again going back to data protection and security making sure that everything was safe and secure and we could recover it. Well, lo and behold, 20 years later he calls me up it. Well, lo and behold, 20 years later he calls me up, not him, but his wife calls me up, and his wife, you know, worked in the business for a period of time but it exited out. She called me up. She said by the way, I still have your cell phone number. I'm wondering if you're still doing IT, was their question. Dave: Okay. Tim: And I returned back and I said absolutely, I'm still doing IT. What's going on? She goes well. He was afraid to call you because he's embarrassed and we were in a very bad situation. This is a second generation builder supply company, probably doing annual revenue about $10 to $15 million in annual revenue. Dave: I said OK, what's going on? Tim: And she goes. Well, we've been ransomed and our data has been held for ransom and we don't know what to do. And our IT guy doesn't know what to do and he is really stressed out. And so the next step was is like well, I can jump in and I can help you. Let me know if you need my assistance. But these type of scenarios we've worked with before and we know how to be able to either negotiate with the criminals and negotiate the ransom to a point where you can actually pay it. If that's your only option, that's your worst option. But if we can recover your data from some sort of backup, we can go through the recovery process. Kind of summarize it we spent that particular client was not a client at the time and so they didn't have any of our backup or recovery procedures in place. They didn't have any kind of policy in place. They didn't have retention policies, they didn't have off-site backups. They had a lot of things. They didn't have offsite backups. They had a lot of things that were missing in that internal IT person's procedure. So what happened was is we came in and we immediately got on site and determined that they were using tape backup, and this is like way tape backup had expired like a long time ago. They had tape backup, they had ancient equipment, it was really. They obviously had put no money investment into their IT. Okay, the recovery for that client was about a week and a half and we were able to recover about 90% of their data. So it comes down to what we call RTO or recovery time objective. The recovery time objective is how long will it take us to recover your network based on our backup and recovery procedures? That particular customer we were able to get back up. Like I said, it was an extended period of time that they were out and they weren't able to do stuff. They were writing sales orders on paper and going back to a paper process. So they could continue their business, but we did get them back up and operational. We got them recovered and they became a customer and today we run very successful trials of the recovery system, as well as continue to make sure that their data is protected and secure. Dave: Did they end up paying the ransom they? Did not Because you got them close enough to 100%. Tim: We got them close enough where they had physical paper backup of the information that they were able to put back into the system. Dave: Okay, now help me understand the other end of that spectrum with somebody who was a current client that something like that happened to, and what was the difference as far as how long it took before you had them up and running? Tim: Well, you know, our current clients knock on wood have not experienced that. Dave: Because they've got a tighter IT infrastructure. Tim: Right, we've got the security and controls and again going back to the tool set to detect and have early detection of these type of events before they happen. So we have the security operations center that is constantly monitoring the security of the networks and the access to the networks and they look for anything that's kind of out of order. Dave: When something's out of order. Tim: then we identify it. We either isolate that system or we investigate it further and see is this a normal procedure that should be going or not? A normal procedure and a lot of this stuff is becoming part of AI now. Part of the AI capabilities is to be able to identify those things very early and stop them before they get any further into the network. So prevention is obviously a whole lot better than remediation. Right and that's what companies hire us to do is to prevent anything like that, a catastrophic event, from happening. Dave: Okay. Well, what about something that's more like a hurricane hits and wipes out their building? I assume you've had some kind of like natural disaster kind of thing where you've had to enact a continuity plan. Tim: Yep, yep, yep, absolutely so. Hurricanes here in the Gulf Coast of Texas, with the Gulf Coast of Texas being in a hurricane zone, we've had customers that their facilities have gone underwater. So one particular customer was on the south side of Houston and their facility went about five feet underwater. They, interestingly enough, had the server on a brick, thinking it was high enough. Well, it wasn't quite high enough, it was a foot off the ground, but it needed to be five feet off the ground. So that server went underwater and it was on when it went underwater. So it shorted out a lot of the components on the server, in which case, you know, they were like we don't know what to do In that scenario. We actually brought the hardware to our facility and we found out what component had failed and we replaced that component on the system and we were able to recover that system oh, wow, okay yeah, that's what we always want to do, is we want to try to use local recovery as much as possible just because of bandwidth or um, no, because of the time it takes to get the data transferred over from a replication process right. Gotcha If you're dealing with terabytes of data. You have to transfer that terabytes of data from either our data center facility or a cloud infrastructure, and that can be time consuming. That can be hours, if not days, depending upon the data. Okay, so some great stories. I mean, obviously we've had events happen. It's not uncommon for events to happen, but how we handle those events and how quickly we can recover from them is critical to a business to continue business for our customers and they can get back to business and be doing what they're doing selling things, manufacturing things, distributing things, whatever it is Okay. Dave: And are there any particular industries that you have, like you know, kind of particular expertise in where you know you would say that people in this industry might look out to you for yeah? Tim: There is. We're a very horizontal organization so we do have multiple industries that we play in. So we do play in the construction industry A lot of construction firms are in our portfolio, but also kind of an area where we've proven to have not only expertise in what we do but also the trust factor is in family offices. Dave: Oh, really Okay. Tim: Yeah, either high income families or ultra high income families. Obviously the privacy of those organizations, the privacy of the families, absolutely critical, and then the data that they're working with has high confidentiality. So, you know again, if that information was to leak out of the network or leak out of the system, then it would be a serious issue. So we've dealt with some of the highest wealth families in the world, oh interesting. Yep Obviously can't name them, but some brands that you would know, some organizations that you would know. It's amazing when I look at our portfolio, the amount of business like when I'm driving around town and I see companies around town and I'm like been in that building, worked in that customer, handled that particular customer, things like that. So yeah, you know, it's our high income or ultra high income. Families are probably a good percentage of our business. Okay, because they have multiple entities that we can support, consistent across all of those entities. So it's very standardized the way we do our business and very proceduralized so it makes it easy for them to understand. They get a quarterly report that provides them with the details and data that they know what we did for them previously and then we also forecast with a forecasting budget in the October November timeframe to provide them with a forecast so they can budget for their future IT needs and know what they're going to need replaced in the future. Dave: Okay, so was this just a case? You happened to stumble across, you know one of these family offices and then you know they run in the same circles and we're just got around that you guys were the go-to folks. Tim: I will say it has helped right In the. You know, in that particular market referrals are a huge thing. Our first family office we did stumble across. We didn't know we were working with an entity, one of their businesses, and then we, you know, they introduced us to another piece of their business and then they introduced us to the family office. You know we're having troubles with, you know, my buddy, my other firm over here, and we'd like you to kind of help in that area. So that expanded out quite a bit. And you know, again, there couldn't be. Our organization has to be the most trusted organization as a vendor that any company is going to hire, right? Sure, because you have to think about the access to the data that we have. We have access to absolutely everything. We're the administrator of your network, right? We have access to your email account. We have access to your email account. We have access to your employees' email accounts. We have access to your data, your financial data, your payroll data, your bonus data, all of the data that's out there on the network we have full access to. So you have to trust our team to the utmost in order to keep that information private, and I always approach a customer with. We're here responsible to secure and maintain that data. We're not here to look at what that data is. We don't know what that data is. Okay. Dave: Well, that's interesting here. I thought I figured you picked up that first client when you were on your mega yacht at the Cannes Film Festival. It didn't work that way. Tim: Huh, no it didn't work that way. No, it didn't work that way. I don't have a mega yacht and I wasn't at the festival, so okay, okay, yeah, not that I don't enjoy that stuff. I do have a house over at tpc, sawgrass and the players club and I do enjoy the country club life. You know I probably have the least expensive house in the neighborhood but I do enjoy the life. Dave: So nice, nice, I like it. So what do your clients tell you that makes your firm unique, like folks that have moved from another firm to yours, then they've been with you a while and I imagine you'll have a conversation hey, how's it going from your end? Are we meeting your expectations? I imagine you have conversations like that. What are they? What are? Are there any common themes? When they end up comparing you to the prior provider, they had, or how does that go? Tim: Yeah, there's a couple of scenarios there on why customers come to us and leave their current service provider right. One of the biggest things that I found with a customer that may be using a smaller service provider is they are really good at the tech stuff. They're not good at the business or the accounting side of the business, sure. So there's a delay in billing or an inaccuracy in billing and it's all of a sudden they get a stack of invoices three months later for work that was performed that they have no idea whether it got performed or what, and so there's a huge problem with the office operations of those particular service providers. So there's a pain point there and they're like I'm done, they come to me and they go, I'm done, this guy doesn't bill me. And then he bills me all at once, and then I got to try and back that information back into my financials and it totally screws up my forecast and my monthly reporting. So that's one reason that customers come to us. The other one is they don't get a response or the response is like unpredictable. So when they call in, they may get the guy right away, they may get the person like return their call the next day or three days later, so response time is really huge. I have a service desk here that is operated 24 hours a day, so our first level response is within minutes. So if you call my office, you'll get a response within minutes. If not on the first ring, it'll probably be the second or third ring. Dave: Oh, wow. Tim: Yeah, very rarely does any of our calls sit on hold or back up in the queue, so that's one way that customers come to us. The other way that customers come to us is that we have acquired eight other companies in the past 25 years. Dave: Oh, wow. Tim: Yeah, we completed our last acquisition in 2024. And we've gone out and found other service providers that may be struggling. They may not have the right business acumen to be able to run the business, so they're either marginally making money or they're losing money because they don't have the standard operating procedures that we have in place and the true business acumen to be able to run the service as a company. They've got customers, they're doing the work, they're getting paid, but they're not profitable. So we end up with firms like that that have come in through acquisitions. Dave: So yeah, I can see that and that's probably where your American Express background was helpful. Right Because you've had exposure to, you know, enterprise grade operations billing HR. Right operations billing HR right To where? Because American Express strikes me as just a well-run, well-oiled machine? Tim: Absolutely yeah, and I will say yeah, I will give them credit for that. You know it was a great run over there for 10 years and I learned not only about you know my job role and continuing to build on my experience in my job role, but how a company operates from a branding perspective, in branding your organization and keeping that brand consistent, but also in standard operating procedures and standardized deployment of systems. Right. I always refer back to not only my American Express days but the Southwest Airline days of standardization. If you can standardize the particular piece of your business that you're running, then it makes it so much easier. So we have standard software applications that we put out from a security tool set. We have standard equipment that we sell out to our customers, all on the Dell platform. My team is trained on the Dell hardware. They're trained on the tools that we use. The security tools, the management tools and all of those things integrate together to make a successful business. Dave: And again it goes back to enterprise level policies and procedures and way things that are, you know, repeating things that are successful you know, repeating things that are successful, okay Well, it sounds like like the first two parts of your success just seem mind blowing to me how you thought of this. But answer the phone when clients call and invoice timely Wow, I mean that's, that's quite a that's quite as. I mean I can't believe, to be honest, that you shared that secret sauce with me. I mean, my goodness, I mean that's. If you're not careful, there'll be other companies will start answering the phone and invoicing timely with that, you know inside knowledge. Tim: Yeah, I hope that we can improve the rest of the service providers out there, right. Dave: Sure. Tim: Competition is good. I like competition. It keeps us going. It gives us something to work towards as well. Dave: Yeah, so you talked a bit about some of the acquisitions and it sounds like you're kind of in a place where you're always open to the right acquisition. What are kind of the ideal characteristics of like the ideal acquisition? I'm guessing you're not going to try to acquire like E&Y's consulting group. I'm guessing you're looking for smaller operations than that. Tim: Yeah for sure you know. So an organization, the organizations we have acquired, have been anywhere from a half a million dollars to two million dollars in revenue. Those organizations the owners may be getting older, they may be getting ready to retire and they're not sure what they want to do with their business. What they do know is that they don't want to continue to run it Right and that it's marginally. They're making the same amount of money or less than if they had a corporate job Right. So it's sad to see, because they love what they do right and they want to place their customers in with a firm that has a similar culture, that takes care of their customers and really make sure that they're doing the right thing for their customers. So a firm that might be in a half million dollars to two million dollars in annual revenue, or the firm might be a five employee firm or smaller, and that they're getting to that point where they're kind of tired of running the organization and they'd like to transfer. They've taken care of their customers over the years and they've made relationships with those customers over the years and they like to put them with an organization that will take care of those customers and make it a seamless transition for the customer base sure, and I bet, I bet these sellers would probably be shocked if they were able to come in and look at the finances of their business like two years after you've acquired it. Dave: Right, because I'm guessing? Tim: Historically, yes, I will tell you, in probably at least half of those transactions that we've done in the either 12-month or 24-month payout period, they've made more money in that 12-month or 24-month period than they've made in the last three to four years. Dave: Oh, because that earn out ends up being a function of how much you bill over those 12 to 20. And you dramatically increase the revenues, so they're automatically getting participation in that. Absolutely. If they'd known that they would have sold to you 20 years earlier. They just wanted to work for you had their payout and then just become an employee. Right, they want to come out way ahead. Exactly, yeah. Tim: Yeah, now it's really good to see that. I mean, you know, that's one of the things that my competitors don't do. They try to come in and offer this ridiculous number for a business and then the earn out. They beat them up on the earn out and end up with anything. They end up with an initial payment and then maybe they'll get an earn out, maybe they they'll get an earn out, maybe they won't get an earn out, but they're going to tell them how horrible their organization was and how bad the customer base was and how it's not profitable and you know, it's just not how I do business. Dave: Yeah, and I'm having done. Did you say eight acquisitions? Correct, yeah, I'm guessing you've done enough now. That now you have the ability Correct? Yeah, I'm guessing you've done enough now that now you have the ability, the same way that I understand you know when Berkshire Hathaway acquires a at that same point. Now You've got enough success stories that you can point to those as another differentiator, right? Tim: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. We're not at the Berkshire Hathaway point, but we got a couple under our belt and a couple of examples that we can refer back to and have some validation around our acquisition process. Dave: Yeah, because I'm just like, as I'm just playing through some hypothetical numbers, like you know, if a company had, say and you don't have to confirm these, but say a company was doing half a million in revenue, the profit is say you know 50 grand and you buy them, is say you know 50 grand and you buy them, and it wouldn't surprise me if, like, two years later, you know that revenue number doubled and the profitability number like quintupled probably, and or you just you know dramatic increase. Just because you know I mean, quite frankly, you just have a better run business model but they had you're able to plug them in and so that's absolutely our goal. Tim: Yeah, and so your win isn't so much we like to see play out right. Dave: Yeah, and so your win isn't like other folks where you promise the moon and then you figure out all of these ways to not pay them. It sounds like your process is just like hey, because in your mind, being a strategic buyer, that business is worth way more to you. You know two years later, once you've done your magic to it, that business is worth way more and so you're okay paying them on an earn out, on a growing revenue number that maybe they didn't even contribute to, because at the end you know, as a I mean like on the front end you might pay, say you know, one times revenue, let's say just to pull a number out but by the time you get to the end of it, if the business is doubled and the profitability is quadrupled, you really ended up paying only one third or one half revenue. And so all of a sudden, whether you know found a way to squeeze them to where the imputed value you paid was one third annual billings or it was half of annual billings really doesn't matter, because the real value for you is like, year three after the earn out. You've got this great profitable book of business that you know you didn't pay much for in comparison to what it's worth two, three years later in your enterprise. Is that right that's? correct, yep, absolutely but the reason you didn't pay much, though, in in all honesty, was because the business wasn't very valuable. Tim: And it really wasn't right. Dave: Yeah, I mean they had owner value. Tim: Street value had a zero valuation on it right. Dave: Yeah, they had probably owner concentration risk. They may have had customer concentration risk, poor processes systems. You know the type of company that you know. There weren't people beating their door down to buy their because, effectively, you're just buying a job. If you bought that business, all right. How much do you pay for a job? Most people don't want to pay very much for a job. Now, what do you look for in an employee, just like you know the most techie person you can find. Is that really all that matters? Tim: No, it's not necessarily you know the most skilled technical guy out there, right? So one of the strategies that we have and maybe I shouldn't share that because my competitors may hear it, but we are a strong supporter of our veterans, so we have veterans that work in our organization. We're probably a 75 percent veteran organization. Dave: Oh, wow, ok yeah. Tim: Yeah, and we enjoy that. They come to us with technical skills and abilities but we build upon those we really do Right and we develop those particular individuals to be much better at what they do. But having our veterans on our team has been hugely successful from a reliability standpoint, as well as a dedication standpoint and the understanding to be able to follow orders as given, right Okay. So that's how we've been able to do that and our retention rate is extremely high. I would say that our culture is very good. We're very family oriented. We're very you know when work has to get done, work has to get done. But we also realize that the family comes first and there's family things that come in the way that need to be addressed. Right. You can't. Your kid gets sick. You have to go take care of your kid, you can't be at your job, right? Those kinds of things and being able to balance that. That was one of my challenges at American Express. I was a new father in my ninth year at American Express and I realized that, even though it was written in the book and preached on the values of the company, when it came time to actually exercise that it wasn't as flexible as I had hoped I was like you know. This is another reason I kind of need to get out. I need to raise my daughter and I need to, you know, and I plan to have other children. So family values and longevity of employees, it makes a huge difference you have to think about. If you have an IT guy in your organization and they're only there for a year or two years, they've gained a little bit of knowledge about your business and how it operates and what computer systems are, what systems and software you're using in your business. They get intellectual knowledge right that walks out the door when that employee leaves or you release that employee. Dave: Yeah. Tim: With maintaining our staffing. I've got people on my team that have been with us 15 plus years and they have a history of our customers that is like you can't buy that right. Sure, you've got that knowledge of that network, of when it was built, like we've built some of these companies, so we know it from day one and what we've done to different applications and how we've modified them over the years. So just having that knowledge be maintained with your service provider is huge, so, and we can go back and look at you know, oh, here's a ticket from 15 years ago that I worked, that I resolved this issue, wow. Dave: And how do you know? You know, cause it sounds like the company has been growing both organically and through acquisition. How do you know when it's time to hire? Do you wait till? Like people are working a hundred hours a week in complaining and quitting. Tim: Is that? Dave: the point you say oh geez, we probably should get somebody hired and we should probably hire in a hurry. The first person we come across Is that your growth strategy? Tim: for your people? No, definitely not, definitely not. So we have a lot of KPIs in the business that we can measure the performance of our organization, and mainly that's around resource utilization. Okay, so we have a lot of tools in our toolbox that give us an indication of when an employee is overloaded or when they have too much on their plate, so we can shuffle that within the business and be able to see who's got the workload and who doesn't have the workload, be able to move things around within the organization. But then we can also look at our utilization levels and, number one, make sure that we're profitable with those utilization levels but also staff appropriately to those utilization levels and know when it's time right. It's like okay, we acquired a company with five big customers and we didn't get any employees with it. Do we have the bandwidth or do we need to increase our staffing? So we really have a lot of KPIs around measuring that to make sure that we don't stress our existing resources and we balance it out that our people are profitable but they're not overworked. Dave: Yeah, no, that makes sense. And then how do your new employees come to you? Is it referrals from other employees mostly, or no, we do have. Tim: I sit on the board for one of the technical colleges and I use that technical college as our you know more or less recruiting platform. We find the best of the students. You know the kids that are shining. You know they kids that are shining. You know they're showing up on time for their classes, they're interested in developing their skills and they're really, you know, the top students in the tracks right Okay. Yeah, and then we recruit them out of there. We recruit them in at our first level, our entry level, on our service desk team and we build them up in our organization over a period of time, so lots of opportunity for them to grow once they come into our organization. Dave: Yeah, that sounds like a great way to bring new folks on. You can train them the way you want trained with your processes and systems. Tim: And then keep them right. Keep them you can give them a growth path and keep them so that they can be. They can get better at what they do, get a higher compensation, be successful in life. There's nothing makes me happier as an owner than to see an employee grow from where they came in the day they started with us to being successful in life. Buying a home buying a car, having a family, all of those kinds of things right, those are really important for me. They're kind of like energy for me to see a person develop over the course of their career with our organization. Dave: Some of my guests. When I ask them, like what's the most satisfying or gratifying part of the job, it seems to fall into two categories. It's either the satisfaction they get from serving the customer or the satisfaction they get from watching their team grow. It sounds like you're probably more on that watching the team grow and that and then they. I think it was Herb Keller that had the idea of take care of your employees, and your employees will take care of your customers Absolutely. Is that right, that your satisfaction comes more from taking care of the employees, and then the happy customers are just an expected outcome? Tim: Yeah, that is a result, right, absolutely. So you know, when I started started this organization, I started in the spare bedroom of my house. Oh okay, I had two analog phone lines. One was for my phone and the other one was a backup phone line, but it was also used for my dial-up internet to be able to help, oh wow, remote into into customers. Right, and looking back, I walk in now to our operations center and we have a pretty impressive organization and a pretty impressive facility that we own. And walking in now I'm like, holy crap, what the heck did I build? Dave: right that's awesome. That's super satisfying right, super yeah I can imagine well I cannot believe how the time is flying by. I always tell my guests it's like the fastest hour of their life is being on the podcast. Tim: How are we going to fill that hour, Dave? Dave: Yeah, I know. So I've got just two questions just to wrap up. If you had a time machine and could go back and give some advice to like your 25 or 30 year old self, what advice might you give yourself? Tim: Ooh, that's a good question. I don't know. I don't know the answer to that. What do I give myself? I probably would have started my organization sooner. Dave: Bingo. That's the answer that 90% of the people have. Tim: Yeah, I would have started my organization sooner. I needed that enterprise expertise, but I would have started it sooner. Dave: Sure, yeah, it's yeah, because the funny thing when you're an employee and if you follow the career path that your family suggested is actually they think it's a low risk, safe career path. But it's actually a high risk path because you have a customer concentration issue, meaning you have one customer, your employer and, as you learned three or four times that if they decide they don't need you anymore, you basically lose 100% of your income. They don't need you anymore, you basically lose 100% of your income. So it's actually less risky to have you know, even if you're just doing like consulting and all yours, just like a contract employee working 10 hours a week for four different companies, doing whatever. I find that that's far less risky, because if one of the companies doesn't need you, then you know you've only lost a quarter of your revenue. Tim: Yeah, I call it a scenario of I get hired multiple times a month. I hope I never get fired, but occasionally I get fired. But it should have an impact. I like it Well. Dave: so here's my last question. So you're a naturalized Houstonian, like I, am Tex-Mex or barbecue. Tim: Ooh, I like both really well. But yeah, tex-mex thing. If I don't have Mexican at least once a week, I'm going through withdrawals okay, so Tex-Mex? Dave: yeah, now, one person answered that question. I borrowed this from somebody else. One person answered it. They told me about a Mexican restaurant that has great brisket and they make like brisket enchiladas and brisket tacos and brisket quesadillas and he said that was like the best of both worlds there. And I thought, boy, that sounds like it. Tim: Yeah, there's nothing better than a brisket taco, for sure. Dave: That is awesome, I make some of those myself. That is great. Well, hey, as we wrap up, is there anything? I did not ask you that you wish I had Tim. Tim: No, I'd like to close by saying I shared with my team today and I'm always trying to come up with something that I share with my team every day and today I came up with solutions as a defense system designed to protect the most critical assets of your business the data. I like to just kind of close with solutions I as a defense system designed to protect your most critical assets your data, think about think about if your business lost access to its data, regardless of the circumstance. If they lost access to the data, what would that do to your organization? That's what we protect from. That's what we protect from. That's what we protect from happening. Dave: Yeah, Charlie Munger talks about the number one key to recognizing a great business opportunity is finding a company who's riding a wave that's only going to grow and increase over time, Because really all they have to do is just stay on the wave. Well, that certainly has applied to you, right? Because 25 years ago you probably had some companies that said ah our data is not that important. You know, I've got a Rolodex with all my clients' phone number and email, and you know, so the importance of data has only increased during that time, right? Tim: Oh yeah, it's dramatically increased yeah. Dave: Well, it's also. Tim: Everybody trusts that data will be there when they're ready to use it. Dave: Yeah, well, and also the other fact is digitization right 25 years ago, most of their data may not have been digital, it may have been analog or paper or whatever, but now virtually everything is digitized, which makes the data even more important. Tim: I go back 35 years in this industry and when I go back and look at it, I replaced the inner office envelope. Oh yeah, people would type up a memo on a typewriter, put it in an inner office envelope and put whoever was going to and put it in their outbox and the mail guy would come by and pick it up. I replaced that guy. That's true? Dave: Well, that is awesome. Well, Tim, I really appreciate your time. This has really been fun and you've really given me kind of an insight into what makes a really well-run IT services firm operate. So I really appreciate your time. Tim: Yeah, I appreciate your time as well, Dave. Always good to chat with you and good to catch up and appreciate your time today as well. Thanks so much. Dave: All, right, yeah, you too. Special Guest: Tim Loney.

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A conversation with Tim Hwang about historical simulations, the interaction of policy and science, analogies between research ecosystems and the economy, and so much more.  Topics Historical Simulations Macroscience Macro-metrics for science Long science The interaction between science and policy Creative destruction in research “Regulation” for scientific markets Indicators for the health of a field or science as a whole “Metabolism of Science” Science rotation programs Clock speeds of Regulation vs Clock Speeds of Technology References Macroscience Substack Ada Palmer's Papal Simulation Think Tank Tycoon Universal Paperclips (Paperclip maximizer html game) Pitt Rivers Museum   Transcript [00:02:02] Ben: Wait, so tell me more about the historical LARP that you're doing. Oh, [00:02:07] Tim: yeah. So this comes from like something I've been thinking about for a really long time, which is You know in high school, I did model UN and model Congress, and you know, I really I actually, this is still on my to do list is to like look into the back history of like what it was in American history, where we're like, this is going to become an extracurricular, we're going to model the UN, like it has all the vibe of like, after World War II, the UN is a new thing, we got to teach kids about international institutions. Anyways, like, it started as a joke where I was telling my [00:02:35] friend, like, we should have, like, model administrative agency. You know, you should, like, kids should do, like, model EPA. Like, we're gonna do a rulemaking. Kids need to submit. And, like, you know, there'll be Chevron deference and you can challenge the rule. And, like, to do that whole thing. Anyways, it kind of led me down this idea that, like, our, our notion of simulation, particularly for institutions, is, like, Interestingly narrow, right? And particularly when it comes to historical simulation, where like, well we have civil war reenactors, they're kind of like a weird dying breed, but they're there, right? But we don't have like other types of historical reenactments, but like, it might be really valuable and interesting to create communities around that. And so like I was saying before we started recording, is I really want to do one that's a simulation of the Cuban Missile Crisis. But like a serious, like you would like a historical reenactment, right? Yeah. Yeah. It's like everybody would really know their characters. You know, if you're McNamara, you really know what your motivations are and your background. And literally a dream would be a weekend simulation where you have three teams. One would be the Kennedy administration. The other would be, you know, Khrushchev [00:03:35] and the Presidium. And the final one would be the, the Cuban government. Yeah. And to really just blow by blow, simulate that entire thing. You know, the players would attempt to not blow up the world, would be the idea. [00:03:46] Ben: I guess that's actually the thing to poke, in contrast to Civil War reenactment. Sure, like you know how [00:03:51] Tim: that's gonna end. Right, [00:03:52] Ben: and it, I think it, that's the difference maybe between, in my head, a simulation and a reenactment, where I could imagine a simulation going [00:04:01] Tim: differently. Sure, right. [00:04:03] Ben: Right, and, and maybe like, is the goal to make sure the same thing happened that did happen, or is the goal to like, act? faithfully to [00:04:14] Tim: the character as possible. Yeah, I think that's right, and I think both are interesting and valuable, right? But I think one of the things I'm really interested in is, you know, I want to simulate all the characters, but like, I think one of the most interesting things reading, like, the historical record is just, like, operating under deep uncertainty about what's even going on, right? Like, for a period of time, the American [00:04:35] government is not even sure what's going on in Cuba, and, like, you know, this whole question of, like, well, do we preemptively bomb Cuba? Do we, we don't even know if the, like, the warheads on the island are active. And I think I would want to create, like, similar uncertainty, because I think that's where, like, that's where the strategic vision comes in, right? That, like, you have the full pressure of, like, Maybe there's bombs on the island. Maybe there's not even bombs on the island, right? And kind of like creating that dynamic. And so I think simulation is where there's a lot, but I think Even reenactment for some of these things is sort of interesting. Like, that we talk a lot about, like, oh, the Cuban Missile Crisis. Or like, the other joke I had was like, we should do the Manhattan Project, but the Manhattan Project as, like, historical reenactment, right? And it's kind of like, you know, we have these, like, very, like off the cuff or kind of, like, stereotype visions of how these historical events occur. And they're very stylized. Yeah, exactly, right. And so the benefit of a reenactment that is really in detail Yeah. is like, oh yeah, there's this one weird moment. You know, like that, that ends up being really revealing historical examples. And so even if [00:05:35] you can't change the outcome, I think there's also a lot of value in just doing the exercise. Yeah. Yeah. The, the thought of [00:05:40] Ben: in order to drive towards this outcome that I know. Actually happened I wouldn't as the character have needed to do X. That's right That's like weird nuanced unintuitive thing, [00:05:50] Tim: right? Right and there's something I think about even building into the game Right, which is at the very beginning the Russians team can make the decision on whether or not they've even actually deployed weapons into the cube at all, yeah, right and so like I love that kind of outcome right which is basically like And I think that's great because like, a lot of this happens on the background of like, we know the history. Yeah. Right? And so I think like, having the team, the US team put under some pressure of uncertainty. Yeah. About like, oh yeah, they could have made the decision at the very beginning of this game that this is all a bluff. Doesn't mean anything. Like it's potentially really interesting and powerful, so. [00:06:22] Ben: One precedent I know for this completely different historical era, but there's a historian, Ada Palmer, who runs [00:06:30] Tim: a simulation of a people election in her class every year. That's so good. [00:06:35] And [00:06:36] Ben: it's, there, you know, like, it is not a simulation. [00:06:40] Tim: Or, [00:06:41] Ben: sorry, excuse me, it is not a reenactment. In the sense that the outcome is indeterminate. [00:06:47] Tim: Like, the students [00:06:48] Ben: can determine the outcome. But... What tends to happen is like structural factors emerge in the sense that there's always a war. Huh. The question is who's on which sides of the war? Right, right. And what do the outcomes of the war actually entail? That's right. Who [00:07:05] Tim: dies? Yeah, yeah. And I [00:07:07] Ben: find that that's it's sort of Gets at the heart of the, the great [00:07:12] Tim: man theory versus the structural forces theory. That's right. Yeah. Like how much can these like structural forces actually be changed? Yeah. And I think that's one of the most interesting parts of the design that I'm thinking about right now is kind of like, what are the things that you want to randomize to impose different types of like structural factors that could have been in that event? Right? Yeah. So like one of the really big parts of the debate at XCOM in the [00:07:35] early phases of the Cuban Missile Crisis is You know, McNamara, who's like, right, he runs the Department of Defense at the time. His point is basically like, look, whether or not you have bombs in Cuba or you have bombs like in Russia, the situation has not changed from a military standpoint. Like you can fire an ICBM. It has exactly the same implications for the U. S. And so his, his basically his argument in the opening phases of the Cuban Missile Crisis is. Yeah. Which is actually pretty interesting, right? Because that's true. But like, Kennedy can't just go to the American people and say, well, we've already had missiles pointed at us. Some more missiles off, you know, the coast of Florida is not going to make a difference. Yeah. And so like that deep politics, and particularly the politics of the Kennedy administration being seen as like weak on communism. Yeah. Is like a huge pressure on all the activity that's going on. And so it's almost kind of interesting thinking about the Cuban Missile Crisis, not as like You know us about to blow up the world because of a truly strategic situation but more because of like the local politics make it so difficult to create like You know situations where both sides can back down [00:08:35] successfully. Basically. Yeah [00:08:36] Ben: The the one other thing that my mind goes to actually to your point about it model UN in schools. Huh, right is Okay, what if? You use this as a pilot, and then you get people to do these [00:08:49] Tim: simulations at [00:08:50] Ben: scale. Huh. And that's actually how we start doing historical counterfactuals. Huh. Where you look at, okay, you know, a thousand schools all did a simulation of the Cuban Missile Crisis. In those, you know, 700 of them blew [00:09:05] Tim: up the world. Right, right. [00:09:07] Ben: And it's, it actually, I think it's, That's the closest [00:09:10] Tim: thing you can get to like running the tape again. Yeah. I think that's right. And yeah, so I think it's, I think it's a really underused medium in a lot of ways. And I think particularly as like you know, we just talk, talk like pedagogically, like it's interesting that like, it seems to me that there was a moment in American pedagogical history where like, this is a good way of teaching kids. Like, different types of institutions. And like, but it [00:09:35] hasn't really matured since that point, right? Of course, we live in all sorts of interesting institutions now. And, and under all sorts of different systems that we might really want to simulate. Yeah. And so, yeah, this kind of, at least a whole idea that there's lots of things you could teach if you, we like kind of opened up this way of kind of like, Thinking about kind of like educating for about institutions. Right? So [00:09:54] Ben: that is so cool. Yeah, I'm going to completely, [00:09:59] Tim: Change. Sure. Of course. [00:10:01] Ben: So I guess. And the answer could be no, but is, is there connections between this and your sort of newly launched macroscience [00:10:10] Tim: project? There is and there isn't. Yeah, you know, I think like the whole bid of macroscience which is this project that I'm doing as part of my IFP fellowship. Yeah. Is really the notion that like, okay, we have all these sort of like interesting results that have come out of metascience. That kind of give us like, kind of like the beginnings of a shape of like, okay, this is how science might work and how we might like get progress to happen. And you know, we've got [00:10:35] like a bunch of really compelling hypotheses. Yeah. And I guess my bit has been like, I kind of look at that and I squint and I'm like, we're, we're actually like kind of in the early days of like macro econ, but for science, right? Which is like, okay, well now we have some sense of like the dynamics of how the science thing works. What are the levers that we can start, like, pushing and pulling, and like, what are the dials we could be turning up and turning down? And, and, you know, I think there is this kind of transition that happens in macro econ, which is like, we have these interesting results and hypotheses, but there's almost another... Generation of work that needs to happen into being like, oh, you know, we're gonna have this thing called the interest rate Yeah, and then we have all these ways of manipulating the money supply and like this is a good way of managing like this economy Yeah, right and and I think that's what I'm chasing after with this kind of like sub stack but hopefully the idea is to build it up into like a more coherent kind of framework of ideas about like How do we make science policy work in a way that's better than just like more science now quicker, please? Yeah, right, which is I think we're like [00:11:35] we're very much at at the moment. Yeah, and in particular I'm really interested in the idea of chasing after science almost as like a Dynamic system, right? Which is that like the policy levers that you have You would want to, you know, tune up and tune down, strategically, at certain times, right? And just like the way we think about managing the economy, right? Where you're like, you don't want the economy to overheat. You don't want it to be moving too slow either, right? Like, I am interested in kind of like, those types of dynamics that need to be managed in science writ large. And so that's, that's kind of the intuition of the project. [00:12:04] Ben: Cool. I guess, like, looking at macro, how did we even decide, macro econ, [00:12:14] Tim: how did we even decide that the things that we're measuring are the right things to measure? Right? Like, [00:12:21] Ben: isn't it, it's like kind of a historical contingency that, you know, it's like we care about GDP [00:12:27] Tim: and the interest rate. Yeah. I think that's right. I mean in, in some ways there's a triumph of like. It's a normative triumph, [00:12:35] right, I think is the argument. And you know, I think a lot of people, you hear this argument, and it'll be like, And all econ is made up. But like, I don't actually think that like, that's the direction I'm moving in. It's like, it's true. Like, a lot of the things that we selected are arguably arbitrary. Yeah. Right, like we said, okay, we really value GDP because it's like a very imperfect but rough measure of like the economy, right? Yeah. Or like, oh, we focus on, you know, the money supply, right? And I think there's kind of two interesting things that come out of that. One of them is like, There's this normative question of like, okay, what are the building blocks that we think can really shift the financial economy writ large, right, of which money supply makes sense, right? But then the other one I think which is so interesting is like, there's a need to actually build all these institutions. that actually give you the lever to pull in the first place, right? Like, without a federal reserve, it becomes really hard to do monetary policy. Right. Right? Like, without a notion of, like, fiscal policy, it's really hard to do, like, Keynesian as, like, demand side stuff. Right. Right? And so, like, I think there's another project, which is a [00:13:35] political project, to say... Okay, can we do better than just grants? Like, can we think about this in a more, like, holistic way than simply we give money to the researchers to work on certain types of problems. And so this kind of leads to some of the stuff that I think we've talked about in the past, which is like, you know, so I'm obsessed right now with like, can we influence the time horizon of scientific institutions? Like, imagine for a moment we had a dial where we're like, On average, scientists are going to be thinking about a research agenda which is 10 years from now versus next quarter. Right. Like, and I think like there's, there's benefits and deficits to both of those settings. Yeah. But man, if I don't hope that we have a, a, a government system that allows us to kind of dial that up and dial that down as we need it. Right. Yeah. The, the, [00:14:16] Ben: perhaps, quite like, I guess a question of like where the analogy like holds and breaks down. That I, that I wonder about is, When you're talking about the interest rate for the economy, it kind of makes sense to say [00:14:35] what is the time horizon that we want financial institutions to be thinking on. That's like roughly what the interest rate is for, but it, and maybe this is, this is like, I'm too, [00:14:49] Tim: my note, like I'm too close to the macro, [00:14:51] Ben: but thinking about. The fact that you really want people doing science on like a whole spectrum of timescales. And, and like, this is a ill phrased question, [00:15:06] Tim: but like, I'm just trying to wrap my mind around it. Are you saying basically like, do uniform metrics make sense? Yeah, exactly. For [00:15:12] Ben: like timescale, I guess maybe it's just. is an aggregate thing. [00:15:16] Tim: Is that? That's right. Yeah, I think that's, that's, that's a good critique. And I think, like, again, I think there's definitely ways of taking the metaphor too far. Yeah. But I think one of the things I would say back to that is It's fine to imagine that we might not necessarily have an interest rate for all of science, right? So, like, you could imagine saying, [00:15:35] okay, for grants above a certain size, like, we want to incentivize certain types of activity. For grants below a certain size, we want different types of activity. Right, another way of slicing it is for this class of institutions, we want them to be thinking on these timescales versus those timescales. Yeah. The final one I've been thinking about is another way of slicing it is, let's abstract away institutions and just think about what is the flow of all the experiments that are occurring in a society? Yeah. And are there ways of manipulating, like, the relative timescales there, right? And that's almost like, kind of like a supply based way of looking at it, which is... All science is doing is producing experiments, which is like true macro, right? Like, I'm just like, it's almost offensively simplistic. And then I'm just saying like, okay, well then like, yeah, what are the tools that we have to actually influence that? Yeah, and I think there's lots of things you could think of. Yeah, in my mind. Yeah, absolutely. What are some, what are some that are your thinking of? Yeah, so I think like the two that I've been playing around with right now, one of them is like the idea of like, changing the flow of grants into the system. So, one of the things I wrote about in Microscience just the past week was to think [00:16:35] about, like sort of what I call long science, right? And so the notion here is that, like, if you look across the scientific economy, there's kind of this rough, like, correlation between size of grant and length of grant. Right, where so basically what it means is that like long science is synonymous with big science, right? You're gonna do a big ambitious project. Cool. You need lots and lots and lots of money Yeah and so my kind of like piece just briefly kind of argues like but we have these sort of interesting examples like the You know Like framing a heart study which are basically like low expense taking place over a long period of time and you're like We don't really have a whole lot of grants that have that Yeah. Right? And so the idea is like, could we encourage that? Like imagine if we could just increase the flow of those types of grants, that means we could incentivize more experiments that take place like at low cost over long term. Yeah. Right? Like, you know, and this kind of gets this sort of interesting question is like, okay, so what's the GDP here? Right? Like, or is that a good way of cracking some of the critical problems that we need to crack right now? Right? Yeah. And it's kind of where the normative part gets into [00:17:35] it is like, okay. So. You know, one way of looking at this is the national interest, right? We say, okay, well, we really want to win on AI. We really want to win on, like, bioengineering, right? Are there problems in that space where, like, really long term, really low cost is actually the kind of activity we want to be encouraging? The answer might be no, but I think, like, it's useful for us to have, like, that. Color in our palette of things that we could be doing Yeah. In like shaping the, the dynamics of science. Yeah. Yeah. [00:18:01] Ben: I, I mean, one of the things that I feel like is missing from the the meta science discussion Mm-Hmm. is, is even just, what are those colors? Mm-Hmm. like what, what are the, the different and almost parameters of [00:18:16] Tim: of research. Yeah. Right, right, right. And I think, I don't know, one of the things I've been thinking about, which I'm thinking about writing about at some point, right, is like this, this view is, this view is gonna piss people off in some ways, because where it ultimately goes is this idea that, like, like, the scientist or [00:18:35] science Is like a system that's subject to the government, or subject to a policy maker, or a strategist. Which like, it obviously is, right? But like, I think we have worked very hard to believe that like, The scientific market is its own independent thing, And like, that touching or messing with it is like, a not, not a thing you should do, right? But we already are. True, that's kind of my point of view, yeah exactly. I think we're in some ways like, yeah I know I've been reading a lot about Keynes, I mean it is sort of interesting that it does mirror... Like this kind of like Great Depression era economic thinking, where you're basically like the market takes care of itself, like don't intervene. In fact, intervening is like the worst possible thing you could do because you're only going to make this worse. And look, I think there's like definitely examples of like kind of like command economy science that like don't work. Yes. But like, you know, like I think most mature people who work in economics would say there's some room for like at least like Guiding the system. Right. And like keeping it like in balance is like [00:19:35] a thing that should be attempted and I think it's kind of like the, the, the argument that I'm making here. Yeah. Yeah. I [00:19:41] Ben: mean, I think that's, [00:19:42] Tim: that's like the meta meta thing. Right. Right. Is even [00:19:46] Ben: what, what level of intervention, like, like what are the ways in which you can like usefully intervene and which, and what are the things that are, that are foolish and kind of. crEate the, the, [00:20:01] Tim: Command economy. That's right. Yeah, exactly. Right. Right. And I think like, I think the way through is, is maybe in the way that I'm talking about, right? Which is like, you can imagine lots of bad things happen when you attempt to pick winners, right? Like maybe the policymaker whoever we want to think of that as like, is it the NSF or NIH or whatever? Like, you know, sitting, sitting in their government bureaucracy, right? Like, are they well positioned to make a choice about who's going to be the right solution to a problem? Maybe yes, maybe no. I think we can have a debate about that, right? But I think there's a totally reasonable position, which is they're not in it, so they're not well positioned to make that call. Yeah. [00:20:35] Right? But, are they well positioned to maybe say, like, if we gave them a dial that was like, we want researchers to be thinking about this time horizon versus that time horizon? Like, that's a control that they actually may be well positioned to inform on. Yeah. As an outsider, right? Yeah. Yeah. And some of this I think, like, I don't know, like, the piece I'm working on right now, which will be coming out probably Tuesday or Wednesday, is you know, some of this is also like encouraging creative destruction, right? Which is like, I'm really intrigued by the idea that like academic fields can get so big that they become they impede progress. Yes. Right? And so this is actually a form of like, I like, it's effectively an intellectual antitrust. Yeah. Where you're basically like, Basically, like the, the role of the scientific regulator is to basically say these fields have gotten so big that they are actively reducing our ability to have good dynamism in the marketplace of ideas. And in this case, we will, we will announce new grant policies that attempt to break this up. And I actually think that like, that is pretty spicy for a funder to do. But like actually maybe part of their role and maybe we should normalize that [00:21:35] being part of their role. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. [00:21:37] Ben: I I'm imagining a world where There are, where this, like, sort of the macro science is as divisive as [00:21:47] Tim: macroeconomics. [00:21:48] Ben: Right? Because you have, you have your like, your, your like, hardcore free market people. Yeah. Zero government intervention. Yeah, that's right. No antitrust. No like, you know, like abolish the Fed. Right, right. All of that. Yeah, yeah. And I look forward to the day. When there's there's people who are doing the same thing for research. [00:22:06] Tim: Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yeah when I think that's actually I mean I thought part of a lot of meta science stuff I think is this kind of like interesting tension, which is that like look politically a lot of those people in the space are Pro free market, you know, like they're they're they're liberals in the little L sense. Yeah, like at the same time Like it is true that kind of like laissez faire science Has failed because we have all these examples of like progress slowing down Right? Like, I don't know. Like, I think [00:22:35] that there is actually this interesting tension, which is like, to what degree are we okay with intervening in science to get better outcomes? Yeah. Right? Yeah. Well, as, [00:22:43] Ben: as I, I might put on my hat and say, Yeah, yeah. Maybe, maybe this is, this is me saying true as a fair science has never been tried. Huh, right. Right? Like, that, that, that may be kind of my position. Huh. But anyways, I... And I would argue that, you know, since 1945, we have been, we haven't had laissez faire [00:23:03] Tim: science. Oh, interesting. [00:23:04] Ben: Huh. Right. And so I'm, yeah, I mean, it's like, this is in [00:23:09] Tim: the same way that I think [00:23:11] Ben: a very hard job for macroeconomics is to say, well, like, do we need [00:23:15] Tim: more or less intervention? Yeah. Yeah. [00:23:17] Ben: What is the case there? I think it's the same thing where. You know, a large amount of science funding does come from the government, and the government is opinionated about what sorts of things [00:23:30] Tim: it funds. Yeah, right. Right. And you [00:23:33] Ben: can go really deep into that. [00:23:35] So, so I [00:23:35] Tim: would. Yeah, that's actually interesting. That flips it. It's basically like the current state of science. is right now over regulated, is what you'd say, right? Or, or [00:23:44] Ben: badly regulated. Huh, sure. That is the argument I would say, very concretely, is that it's badly regulated. And, you know, I might almost argue that it is... It's both over and underregulated in the sense that, well, this is, this is my, my whole theory, but like, I think that there, we need like some pockets where it's like much less regulated. Yeah. Right. Where you're, and then some pockets where you're really sort of going to be like, no. You don't get to sort of tune this to whatever your, your project, your program is. Yeah, right, right. You're gonna be working with like [00:24:19] Tim: these people to do this thing. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I think there actually is interesting analogies in like the, the kind of like economic regulation, economic governance world. Yeah. Where like the notion is markets generally work well, like it's a great tool. Yeah. Like let it run. [00:24:35] Right. But basically that there are certain failure states that actually require outside intervention. And I think what's kind of interesting in thinking about in like a macro scientific, if you will, context is like, what are those failure states for science? Like, and you could imagine a policy rule, which is the policymaker says, we don't intervene until we see the following signals emerging in a field or in a region. Right. And like, okay, that's, that's the trigger, right? Like we're now in recession mode, you know, like there's enough quarters of this problem of like more papers, but less results. You know, now we have to take action, right? Oh, that's cool. Yeah, yeah. That would be, that would be very interesting. And I think that's like, that's good, because I think like, we end up having to think about like, you know, and again, this is I think why this is a really exciting time, is like MetaScience has produced these really interesting results. Now we're in the mode of like, okay, well, you know, on that policymaker dashboard, Yeah. Right, like what's the meter that we're checking out to basically be like, Are we doing well? Are we doing poorly? Is this going well? Or is this going poorly? Right, like, I think that becomes the next question to like, make this something practicable Yeah. For, for [00:25:35] actual like, Right. Yeah. Yeah. One of my frustrations [00:25:38] Ben: with meta science [00:25:39] Tim: is that it, I [00:25:41] Ben: think is under theorized in the sense that people generally are doing these studies where they look at whatever data they can get. Huh. Right. As opposed to what data should we be looking at? What, what should we be looking for? Yeah. Right. Right. And so, so I would really like to have it sort of be flipped and say, okay, like this At least ideally what we would want to measure maybe there's like imperfect maybe then we find proxies for that Yeah, as opposed to just saying well, like here's what we can measure. It's a proxy for [00:26:17] Tim: okay. That's right, right Yeah, exactly. And I think a part of this is also like I mean, I think it is like Widening the Overton window, which I think like the meta science community has done a good job of is like trying to widen The Overton window of what funders are willing to do. Yeah. Or like what various existing incumbent actors are willing to [00:26:35] do. Because I think one way of getting that data is to run like interesting experiments in this space. Right? Like I think one of the things I'm really obsessed with right now is like, okay, imagine if you could change the overhead rate that universities charge on a national basis. Yeah. Right? Like, what's that do to the flow of money through science? And is that like one dial that's actually like On the shelf, right? Like, we actually have the ability to influence that if we wanted to. Like, is that something we should be running experiments against and seeing what the results are? Yeah, yeah. [00:27:00] Ben: Another would be earmarking. Like, how much money is actually earmarked [00:27:05] Tim: for different things. That's right, yeah, yeah. Like, how easy it is to move money around. That's right, yeah. I heard actually a wild story yesterday about, do you know this whole thing, what's his name? It's apparently a very wealthy donor. That has convinced the state of Washington's legislature to the UW CS department. it's like, it's written into law that there's a flow of money that goes directly to the CS department. I don't think CS departments need more money. I [00:27:35] know, I know, but it's like, this is a really, really kind of interesting, like, outcome. Yeah. Which is like a very clear case of basically just like... Direct subsidy to like, not, not just like a particular topic, but like a particular department, which I think is like interesting experiment. I don't like, I don't know what's been happening there, but yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Natural, natural experiment. [00:27:50] Ben: Totally. Has anybody written down, I assume the answer is no, but it would be very interesting if someone actually wrote down a list of sort of just all the things you [00:28:00] Tim: could possibly [00:28:00] Ben: want to pay attention to, right? Like, I mean, like. Speaking of CS, it'd be very interesting to see, like, okay, like, what fraction of the people who, like, get PhDs in an area, stay in this area, right? Like, going back to the, the [00:28:15] Tim: health of a field or something, right? Yeah, yeah. I think that's right. I, yeah. And I think that those, those types of indicators are interesting. And then I think also, I mean, in the spirit of like it being a dynamic system. Like, so a few years back I read this great bio by Sebastian Malaby called The Man Who Knew, which is, it's a bio of Alan Greenspan. So if you want to ever read, like, 800 pages about [00:28:35] Alan Greenspan, book for you. It's very good. But one of the most interesting parts about it is that, like, there's a battle when Alan Greenspan becomes head of the Fed, where basically he's, like, extremely old school. Like, what he wants to do is he literally wants to look at, like, Reams of data from like the steel industry. Yeah, because that's kind of got his start And he basically is at war with a bunch of kind of like career People at the Fed who much more rely on like statistical models for predicting the economy And I think what's really interesting is that like for a period of time actually Alan Greenspan has the edge Because he's able to realize really early on that like there's It's just changes actually in like the metabolism of the economy that mean that what it means to raise the interest rate or lower the interest rate has like very different effects than it did like 20 years ago before it got started. Yeah. And I think that's actually something that I'm also really quite interested in science is basically like When we say science, people often imagine, like, this kind of, like, amorphous blob. But, like, I think the metabolism is changing all the [00:29:35] time. And so, like, what we mean by science now means very different from, like, what we mean by science, like, even, like, 10 to 20 years ago. Yes. And, like, it also means that all of our tactics need to keep up with that change, right? And so, one of the things I'm interested in to your question about, like, has anyone compiled this list of, like, science health? Or the health of science, right? It's maybe the right way of thinking about it. is that, like, those indicators may mean very different things at different points in time, right? And so part of it is trying to understand, like, yeah, what is the state of the, what is the state of this economy of science that we're talking about? Yeah. You're kind of preaching [00:30:07] Ben: to the, to the choir. In the sense that I'm, I'm always, I'm frustrated with the level of nuance that I feel like many people who are discussing, like, science, quote, making air quotes, science and research, are, are talking about in the sense that. They very often have not actually like gone in and been part of the system. Huh, right. And I'm, I'm open to the fact that [00:30:35] you [00:30:35] Tim: don't need to have got like [00:30:36] Ben: done, been like a professional researcher to have an opinion [00:30:41] Tim: or, or come up with ideas about it. [00:30:43] Ben: Yeah. But at the same time, I feel like [00:30:46] Tim: there's, yeah, like, like, do you, do you think about that tension at all? Yeah. I think it's actually incredibly valuable. Like, I think So I think of like Death and Life of Great American Cities, right? Which is like, the, the, the really, one of the really, there's a lot of interesting things about that book. But like, one of the most interesting things is sort of the notion that like, you had a whole cabal of urban planners that had this like very specific vision about how to get cities to work right and it just turns out that like if you like are living in soho at a particular time and you like walk along the street and you like take a look at what's going on like there's always really actually super valuable things to know about yeah that like are only available because you're like at that like ultra ultra ultra ultra micro level and i do think that there's actually some potential value in there like one of the things i would love to be able to set up, like, in the community of MetaScience or whatever you want to call it, right, [00:31:35] is the idea that, like, yeah, you, you could afford to do, like, very short tours of duty, where it's, like, literally, you're just, like, spending a day in a lab, right, and, like, to have a bunch of people go through that, I think, is, like, really, really helpful and so I think, like, thinking about, like, what the rotation program for that looks like, I think would be cool, like, you, you should, you should do, like, a six month stint at the NSF just to see what it looks like. Cause I think that kind of stuff is just like, you know, well, A, I'm selfish, like I would want that, but I also think that like, it would also allow the community to like, I think be, be thinking about this in a much more applied way. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [00:32:08] Ben: I think it's the, the meta question there for, for everything, right? Is how much in the weeds, like, like what am I trying to say? The. It is possible both to be like two in the weeds. Yeah, right and then also like too high level Yeah, that's right. And in almost like what what is the the right amount or like? Who, who should [00:32:31] Tim: be talking to whom in that? That's right. Yeah, I mean, it's like what you were saying earlier that like the [00:32:35] success of macro science will be whether or not it's as controversial as macroeconomics. It's like, I actually hope that that's the case. It's like people being like, this is all wrong. You're approaching it like from a too high level, too abstract of a level. Yeah. I mean, I think the other benefit of doing this outside of like the level of insight is I think one of the projects that I think I have is like We need to, we need to be like defeating meta science, like a love of meta science aesthetics versus like actual like meta science, right? Like then I think like a lot of people in meta science love science. That's why they're excited to not talk about the specific science, but like science in general. But like, I think that intuition also leads us to like have very romantic ideas of like what science is and how science should look and what kinds of science that we want. Yeah. Right. The mission is progress. The mission isn't science. And so I think, like, we have to be a lot more functional. And again, I think, like, the benefit of these types of, like, rotations, like, Oh, you just are in a lab for a month. Yeah. It's like, I mean, you get a lot more of a sense of, like, Oh, okay, this is, this is what it [00:33:35] looks like. Yeah. Yeah. I'd like to do the same thing for manufacturing. Huh. Right. [00:33:39] Ben: Right. It's like, like, and I want, I want everybody to be rotating, right? Huh. Like, in the sense of, like, okay, like, have the scientists go and be, like, in a manufacturing lab. That's right. [00:33:47] Tim: Yeah. [00:33:48] Ben: And be like, okay, like, look. Like, you need to be thinking about getting this thing to work in, like, this giant, like, flow pipe instead of a [00:33:54] Tim: test tube. That's right, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, [00:33:57] Ben: unfortunately, the problem is that we can't all spend our time, like, if everybody was rotating through all the [00:34:03] Tim: things they need to rotate, we'd never get anything done. Yeah, exactly. [00:34:06] Ben: ANd that's, that's, that's kind of [00:34:08] Tim: the problem. Well, and to bring it all the way back, I mean, I think you started this question on macroscience in the context of transitioning away from all of this like weird Cuban Missile Crisis simulation stuff. Like, I do think one way of thinking about this is like, okay, well, if we can't literally send you into a lab, right? Like the question is like, what are good simulations to give people good intuitions about the dynamics in the space? Yeah. And I think that's, that's potentially quite interesting. Yeah. Normalized weekend long simulation. That's right. Like I love the idea of basically [00:34:35] like like you, you get to reenact the publication of a prominent scientific paper. It's like kind of a funny idea. It's just like, you know, yeah. Or, or, or even trying to [00:34:44] Ben: get research funded, right? Like, it's like, okay, like you have this idea, you want yeah. [00:34:55] Tim: I mean, yeah, this is actually a project, I mean, I've been talking to Zach Graves about this, it's like, I really want to do one which is a game that we're calling Think Tank Tycoon, which is basically like, it's a, it's a, the idea would be for it to be a strategy board game that simulates what it's like to run a research center. But I think like to broaden that idea somewhat like it's kind of interesting to think about the idea of like model NSF Yeah, where you're like you you're in you're in the hot seat you get to decide how to do granting Yeah, you know give a grant [00:35:22] Ben: a stupid thing. Yeah, some some some congressperson's gonna come banging [00:35:26] Tim: on your door Yeah, like simulating those dynamics actually might be really really helpful Yeah I mean in the very least even if it's not like a one for one simulation of the real world just to get like some [00:35:35] common intuitions about like The pressures that are operating here. I [00:35:38] Ben: think you're, the bigger point is that simulations are maybe underrated [00:35:42] Tim: as a teaching tool. I think so, yeah. Do you remember the the paperclip maximizer? Huh. The HTML game? Yeah, yeah. [00:35:48] Ben: I'm, I'm kind of obsessed with it. Huh. Because, it, you've, like, somehow the human brain, like, really quickly, with just, like, you know, some numbers on the screen. Huh. Like, just like numbers that you can change. Right, right. And some, like, back end. Dynamic system, where it's like, okay, like based on these numbers, like here are the dynamics of the [00:36:07] Tim: system, and it'll give you an update. [00:36:09] Ben: Like, you start to really get an intuition for, for system dynamics. Yeah. And so, I, I, I want to see more just like plain HTML, like basically like spreadsheet [00:36:20] Tim: backend games. Right, right, like the most lo fi possible. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's helpful. I mean, I think, again, particularly in a world where you're thinking about, like, let's simulate these types of, like, weird new grant structures that we might try out, right? Like, you know, we've got a bunch [00:36:35] of hypotheses. It's kind of really expensive and difficult to try to get experiments done, right? Like, does a simulation with a couple people who are well informed give us some, at least, inclinations of, like, where it might go or, like, what are the unintentional consequences thereof? Yeah. [00:36:51] Ben: Disciplines besides the military that uses simulations [00:36:56] Tim: successfully. Not really. And I think what's kind of interesting is that like, I think it had a vogue that like has kind of dissipated. Yeah, I think like the notion of like a a game being the way you kind of do like understanding of a strategic situation, I think like. Has kind of disappeared, right? But like, I think a lot of it was driven, like, RAND actually had a huge influence, not just on the military. But like, there's a bunch of corporate games, right? That were like, kind of invented in the same period. Yeah. That are like, you determine how much your steel production is, right? And was like, used to teach MBAs. But yeah, I think it's, it's been like, relatively limited. Hm. [00:37:35] Yeah. It, yeah. Hm. [00:37:38] Ben: So. Other things. Huh. Like, just to, [00:37:41] Tim: to shift together. Sure, sure, go ahead. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I guess another [00:37:44] Ben: thing that we haven't really talked about, but actually sort of plays into all of this, is thinking about better [00:37:50] Tim: ways of regulating technology. [00:37:52] Ben: I know that you've done a lot of thinking about that, and maybe this is another thing to simulate. [00:38:00] Tim: Yeah, it's a model OSTP. But [00:38:04] Ben: it's maybe a thing where, this is actually like a prime example where the particulars really matter, right? Where you can't just regulate. quote unquote technology. Yeah. Right. And it's like, there's, there's some technologies that you want to regulate very, very closely and very tightly and others that you want to regulate very [00:38:21] Tim: loosely. Yeah, I think that's right. And I think that's actually, you know, I think it is tied to the kind of like macro scientific project, if you will. Right. Which is that I think we have often a notion of like science regulation being like. [00:38:35] literally the government comes in and is like, here are the kind of constraints that we want to put on the system. Right. And there's obviously like lots of different ways of doing that. And I think there's lots of contexts in which that's like appropriate. But I think for a lot of technologies that we confront right now, the change is so rapid that the obvious question always becomes, no matter what emerging technology talking about is like, how does your clock speed of regulation actually keep up with like the clock speed of technology? And the answer is frequently like. It doesn't, right? And like you run into these kind of like absurd situations where you're like, well, we have this thing, it's already out of date by the time it goes into force, everybody kind of creates some like notional compliance with that rule. Yeah. And like, in terms of improving, I don't know, safety outcomes, for instance, it like has not actually improved safety outcomes. And I think in that case, right, and I think I could actually make an argument that like, the problem is becoming more difficult with time. Right? Like, if you really believe that the pace of technological change is faster than it used to be, then it is possible that, like, there was a point at which, like, government was operating, and it could actually keep [00:39:35] pace effectively, or, like, a body like Congress could actually keep pace with society, or with technology successfully, to, like, make sure that it was conformant with, sort of, like, societal interests. Do you think that was [00:39:46] Ben: actually ever the case, or was it that we didn't, we just didn't [00:39:50] Tim: have as many regulations? I would say it was sort of twofold, right? Like, I think one of them was you had, at least, let's just talk about Congress, right? It's really hard to talk about, like, government as a whole, right? Like, I think, like, Congress was both better advised and was a more efficient institution, right? Which means it moved faster than it does today. Simultaneously, I also feel like for a couple reasons we can speculate on, right? Like, science, or in the very least, technology. Right, like move slower than it does today. Right, right. And so like actually what has happened is that both both dynamics have caused problems, right? Which is that like the organs of government are moving slower at the same time as science is moving faster And like I think we've passed some inflection [00:40:35] point now where like it seems really hard to craft You know, let's take the AI case like a sensible framework that would apply You know, in, in LLMs where like, I don't know, like I was doing a little recap of like recent interoperability research and I like took a step back and I was like, Oh, all these papers are from May, 2023. And I was like, these are all big results. This is all a big deal. Right. It's like very, very fast. Yeah. So that's kind of what I would say to that. Yeah. I don't know. Do you feel differently? You feel like Congress has never been able to keep up? Yeah. [00:41:04] Ben: Well, I. I wonder, I guess I'm almost, I'm, I'm perhaps an outlier in that I am skeptical of the claim that technology overall has sped up significantly, or the pace of technological change, the pace of software change, certainly. Sure. Right. And it's like maybe software as a, as a fraction of technology has spread up, sped up. And maybe like, this is, this is a thing where like to the point of, of regulations needing to, to. Go into particulars, [00:41:35] right? Mm-Hmm. . Right, right. Like tuning the regulation to the characteristic timescale of whatever talk [00:41:40] Tim: technology we're talking about. Mm-Hmm. , right? [00:41:42] Ben: But I don't know, but like, I feel like outside of software, if anything, technology, the pace of technological change [00:41:52] Tim: has slowed down. Mm hmm. Right. Right. Yeah. [00:41:55] Ben: This is me putting on my [00:41:57] Tim: stagnationist bias. And would, given the argument that I just made, would you say that that means that it should actually be easier than ever to regulate technology? Yeah, I get targets moving slower, right? Like, yeah, [00:42:12] Ben: yeah. Or it's the technology moving slowly because of the forms of [00:42:14] Tim: the regulator. I guess, yeah, there's like compounding variables. [00:42:16] Ben: Yeah, the easiest base case of regulating technology is saying, like, no, you can't have [00:42:20] Tim: any. Huh, right, right, right. Like, it can't change. Right, that's easy to regulate. Yeah, right, right. That's very easy to regulate. I buy that, I buy that. It's very easy to regulate well. Huh, right, right. I think that's [00:42:27] Ben: That's the question. It's like, what do we want to lock in and what don't we [00:42:31] Tim: want to lock in? Yeah, I think that's right and I think, you [00:42:35] know I guess what that moves me towards is like, I think some people, you know, will conclude the argument I'm making by saying, and so regulations are obsolete, right? Or like, oh, so we shouldn't regulate or like, let the companies take care of it. And I'm like, I think so, like, I think that that's, that's not the conclusion that I go to, right? Like part of it is like. Well, no, that just means we need, we need better ways of like regulating these systems, right? And I think they, they basically require government to kind of think about sort of like moving to different parts of the chain that they might've touched in the past. Yeah. So like, I don't know, we, Caleb and I over at IFP, we just submitted this RFI to DARPA. In part they, they were thinking about like how does DARPA play a role in dealing with like ethical considerations around emerging technologies. Yep. But the deeper point that we were making in our submission. was simply that like maybe actually science has changed in a way where like DARPA can't be the or it's harder for DARPA to be the originator of all these technologies. Yeah. So they're, they're almost, they're, they're placing the, the, the ecosystem, the [00:43:35] metabolism of technology has changed, which requires them to rethink like how they want to influence the system. Yeah. Right. And it may be more influence at the point of like. Things getting out to market, then it is things like, you know, basic research in the lab or something like that. Right. At least for some classes of technology where like a lot of it's happening in private industry, like AI. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. [00:43:55] Ben: No, I, I, I think the, the concept of, of like the metabolism of, of science and technology is like really powerful. I think in some sense it is, I'm not sure if you would, how would you map that to the idea of there being a [00:44:11] Tim: research ecosystem, right? Right. Is it, is it that there's like [00:44:17] Ben: the metabolic, this is, this is incredibly abstract. Okay. Like, is it like, I guess if you're looking at the metabolism, does, does the metabolism sort of say, we're going to ignore institutions for now and the metabolism is literally just the flow [00:44:34] Tim: of [00:44:35] like ideas and, and, and outcomes and then maybe like the ecosystem is [00:44:41] Ben: like, okay, then we like. Sort of add another layer and say there are institutions [00:44:46] Tim: that are sure interacting with this sort of like, yeah, I think like the metabolism view or, you know, you might even think about it as like a supply chain view, right? To move it away from, like, just kind of gesturing at bio for no reason, right? Is I think what's powerful about it is that, you know, particularly in foundation land, which I'm most familiar with. There's a notion of like we're going to field build and what that means is we're going to name a field and then researchers Are going to be under this tent that we call this field and then the field will exist Yeah, and then the proper critique of a lot of that stuff is like researchers are smart They just like go where the money is and they're like you want to call up like I can pretend to be nanotech for a Few years to get your money Like, that's no problem. I can do that. And so there's kind of a notion that, like, if you take the economy of science as, like, institutions at the very beginning, you actually miss the bigger [00:45:35] picture. Yes. Right? And so the metabolism view is more powerful because you literally think about, like, the movement of, like, an idea to an experiment to a practical technology to, like, something that's out in the world. Yeah. And then we basically say, how do we influence those incentives before we start talking about, like, oh, we announced some new policy that people just, like... Cosmetically align their agendas to yeah, and like if you really want to shape science It's actually maybe arguably less about like the institution and more about like Yeah, the individual. Yeah, exactly. Like I run a lab. What are my motivations? Right? And I think this is like, again, it's like micro macro, right? It's basically if we can understand that, then are there things that we could do to influence at that micro level? Yeah, right. Which is I think actually where a lot of Macro econ has moved. Right. Which is like, how do we influence like the individual firm's decisions Yeah. To get the overall aggregate change that we want in the economy. Yeah. And I think that's, that's potentially a better way of approaching it. Right. A thing that I desperately [00:46:30] Ben: want now is Uhhuh a. I'm not sure what they're, they're [00:46:35] actually called. Like the, you know, like the metal, like, like, like the [00:46:37] Tim: prep cycle. Yeah, exactly. Like, like, like the giant diagram of, of like metabolism, [00:46:43] Ben: right. I want that for, for research. Yeah, that would be incredible. Yeah. If, if only, I mean, one, I want to have it on [00:46:50] Tim: my wall and to, to just get across the idea that. [00:46:56] Ben: It is like, it's not you know, basic research, applied [00:47:01] Tim: research. Yeah, totally. Right, right, right. When it goes to like, and what I like about kind of metabolism as a way of thinking about it is that we can start thinking about like, okay, what's, what's the uptake for certain types of inputs, right? We're like, okay, you know like one, one example is like, okay, well, we want results in a field to become more searchable. Well what's really, if you want to frame that in metabolism terms, is like, what, you know, what are the carbs that go into the system that, like, the enzymes or the yeast can take up, and it's like, access to the proper results, right, and like, I think that there's, there's a nice way of flipping in it [00:47:35] that, like, starts to think about these things as, like, inputs, versus things that we do, again, because, like, we like the aesthetics of it, like, we like the aesthetics of being able to find research results instantaneously, but, like, the focus should be on, Like, okay, well, because it helps to drive, like, the next big idea that we think will be beneficial to me later on. Or like, even being [00:47:53] Ben: the question, like, is the actual blocker to the thing that you want to see, the thing that you think it is? Right. I've run into far more people than I can count who say, like, you know, we want more awesome technology in the world, therefore we are going to be working on Insert tool here that actually isn't addressing, at least my, [00:48:18] Tim: my view of why those things aren't happening. Yeah, right, right. And I think, I mean, again, like, part of the idea is we think about these as, like, frameworks for thinking about different situations in science. Yeah. Like, I actually do believe that there are certain fields because of, like, ideologically how they're set up, institutionally how [00:48:35] they're set up, funding wise how they're set up. that do resemble the block diagram you were talking about earlier, which is like, yeah, there actually is the, the basic research, like we can put, that's where the basic research happens. You could like point at a building, right? And you're like, that's where the, you know, commercialization happens. We pointed at another building, right? But I just happen to think that most science doesn't look like that. Right. And we might ask the question then, like, do we want it to resemble more of like the metabolism state than the block diagram state? Right. Like both are good. Yeah, I mean, I would [00:49:07] Ben: argue that putting them in different buildings is exactly what's causing [00:49:10] Tim: all the problems. Sure, right, exactly, yeah, yeah. Yeah. But then, again, like, then, then I think, again, this is why I think, like, the, the macro view is so powerful, at least to me, personally, is, like, we can ask the question, for what problems? Yeah. Right? Like, are there, are there situations where, like, that, that, like, very blocky way of doing it serves certain needs and certain demands? Yeah. And it's like, it's possible, like, one more argument I can make for you is, like, Progress might be [00:49:35] slower, but it's a lot more controllable. So if you are in the, you know, if you think national security is one of the most important things, you're willing to make those trade offs. But I think we just should be making those trade offs, like, much more consciously than we do. And [00:49:49] Ben: that's where politics, in the term, in the sense of, A compromise between people who have different priorities on something can actually come in where we can say, okay, like we're going to trade off, we're going to say like, okay, we're going to increase like national security a little bit, like in, in like this area to, in compromise with being able to like unblock this. [00:50:11] Tim: That's right. Yeah. And I think this is the benefit of like, you know, when I say lever, I literally mean lever, right. Which is basically like, we're in a period of time where we need this. Yeah. Right? We're willing to trade progress for security. Yeah. Okay, we're not in a period where we need this. Like, take the, take, ramp it down. Right? Like, we want science to have less of this, this kind of structure. Yeah. That's something we need to, like, have fine tuned controls over. Right? Yeah. And to be thinking about in, like, a, a comparative sense, [00:50:35] so. And, [00:50:36] Ben: to, to go [00:50:36] Tim: back to the metabolism example. Yeah, yeah. I'm really thinking about it. Yeah, yeah. [00:50:39] Ben: Is there an equivalent of macro for metabolism in the sense that like I'm thinking about like, like, is it someone's like blood, like, you know, they're like blood glucose level, [00:50:52] Tim: like obesity, right? Yeah, right. Kind of like our macro indicators for metabolism. Yeah, that's right. Right? Or like how you feel in the morning. That's right. Yeah, exactly. I'm less well versed in kind of like bio and medical, but I'm sure there is, right? Like, I mean, there is the same kind of like. Well, I study the cell. Well, I study, you know, like organisms, right? Like at different scales, which we're studying this stuff. Yeah. What's kind of interesting in the medical cases, like You know, it's like, do we have a Hippocratic, like oath for like our treatment of the science person, right? It's just like, first do no harm to the science person, you know? [00:51:32] Ben: Yeah, I mean, I wonder about that with like, [00:51:35] with research. Mm hmm. Is there, should we have more heuristics about how we're [00:51:42] Tim: Yeah, I mean, especially because I think, like, norms are so strong, right? Like, I do think that, like, one of the interesting things, this is one of the arguments I was making in the long science piece. It's like, well, in addition to funding certain types of experiments, if you proliferate the number of opportunities for these low scale projects to operate over a long period of time, there's actually a bunch of like norms that might be really good that they might foster in the scientific community. Right. Which is like you learn, like scientists learn the art of how to plan a project for 30 years. That's super important. Right. Regardless of the research results. That may be something that we want to put out into the open so there's more like your median scientist has more of those skills Yeah, right, like that's another reason that you might want to kind of like percolate this kind of behavior in the system Yeah, and so there's kind of like these emanating effects from like even one offs that I think are important to keep in mind [00:52:33] Ben: That's actually another [00:52:35] I think used for simulations. Yeah I'm just thinking like, well, it's very hard to get a tight feedback loop, right, about like whether you manage, you planned a project for 30 years [00:52:47] Tim: well, right, [00:52:48] Ben: right. But perhaps there's a better way of sort of simulating [00:52:51] Tim: that planning process. Yeah. Well, and I would love to, I mean, again, to the question that you had earlier about like what are the metrics here, right? Like I think for a lot of science metrics that we may end up on, they may have these interesting and really curious properties like we have for inflation rate. Right. We're like, the strange thing about inflation is that we, we kind of don't like, we have hypotheses for how it happens, but like, part of it is just like the psychology of the market. Yeah. Right. Like you anticipate prices will be higher next quarter. Inflation happens if enough people believe that. And part of what the Fed is doing is like, they're obviously making money harder to get to, but they're also like play acting, right? They're like. You know, trust me guys, we will continue to put pressure on the economy until you feel differently about this. And I think there's going to be some things in science that are worth [00:53:35] measuring that are like that, which is like researcher perceptions of the future state of the science economy are like things that we want to be able to influence in the space. And so one of the things that we do when we try to influence like the long termism or the short termism of science It's like, there's lots of kind of like material things we do, but ultimately the idea is like, what does that researcher in the lab think is going to happen, right? Do they think that, you know, grant funding is going to become a lot less available in the next six months or a lot more available in the next six months? Like influencing those might have huge repercussions on what happens in science. And like, yeah, like that's a tool that policymakers should have access to. Yeah. Yeah. [00:54:11] Ben: And the parallels between the. The how beliefs affect the economy, [00:54:18] Tim: and how beliefs [00:54:19] Ben: affect science, I think may also be a [00:54:21] Tim: little bit underrated. Yeah. In the sense that, [00:54:24] Ben: I, I feel like some people think that It's a fairly deterministic system where it's like, ah, yes, this idea's time has come. And like once, once all the things that are in place, like [00:54:35] once, once all, then, then it will happen. And like, [00:54:38] Tim: that is, that's like how it works. [00:54:40] Ben: Which I, I mean, I have, I wish there was more evidence to my point or to disagree with me. But like, I, I think that's, that's really not how it works. And I'm like very often. a field or, or like an idea will, like a technology will happen because people think that it's time for that technology to happen. Right. Right. Yeah. Obviously, obviously that isn't always the case. Right. Yeah. Yeah. There's, there's, there's hype [00:55:06] Tim: cycles. And I think you want, like, eventually, like. You know, if I have my druthers, right, like macro science should have like it's Chicago school, right? Which is basically like the idea arrives exactly when it should arrive. Scientists will discover it on exactly their time. And like your only role as a regulator is to ensure the stability of scientific institutions. I think actually that that is a, that's not a position I agree with, but you can craft a totally, Reasonable, coherent, coherent governance framework that's based around that concept, right? Yes. Yeah. I think [00:55:35] like [00:55:35] Ben: you'll, yes. I, I, I think like that's actually the criteria for success of meta science as a field uhhuh, because like once there's schools , then, then, then it will have made it, [00:55:46] Tim: because [00:55:47] Ben: there aren't schools right now. Mm-Hmm. , like, I, I feel , I almost feel I, I, I now want there to b

We're taking you on a journey through the Tragically Hip's live album, 'Live Between Us', which was released back in 1997. Our excitement leading up to its release was off the charts, and we're here to share that with you! We'll be dissecting some of the tracks on the album, such as 'Grace, too', 'Ahead By A Century', and 'Nautical Disaster'. Prepare to be immersed in the intimate connection between the band and their fans that this record so beautifully captures.In this episode, we dive deep into the recording process of 'Live Between Us', exploring the incredible energy of the show, and the role the audience played in the final product. Also, get ready for an insight into the potential impact a sax player could've had on the band's sound, as well as a fascinating anecdote about Dave Matthews' tour bus incident in Chicago. Plus, we'll delve into the tough decision faced by sax player David Manning – stay with the Hip or leave with his girlfriend?Finally, let's talk about the Tragically Hip's songwriting process and live performance dynamics. We'll discuss how the energy of the show and the crowd's reactions influenced their performances, and examine the live version of 'Fully Completely', which unlocked the song in a completely different way from the original recording. We'll also touch on the band's influences and listening habits, and how they incorporated lyrics from other bands into their set. So, join us as we unearth the magic of 'Springtime in Vienna' and the excitement its introduction caused among the crowd. You don't want to miss this!Transcript0:00:00 - Speaker 1So, guys, this is Pete here. I'm coming to you with a very important message. Okay, this is serious stuff. I know we joke around a lot on the on the pod, but in all honesty, i'm asking for a favor. I need you to do yourselves a favor. I need you to do your family and friends a favor. I need you to do society as a whole favor. Go to getting hip to the hipcom, click on the bonus feed and join the bonus feed, because there's some pretty next level content or covering everything from geopolitics to UFOs and the tragically hit most importantly, but you're really not gonna want to miss it. So, again, do yourself a favor, do the next generation a favor. Okay, before you, before you focus on recycling and nobody cares about climate change, the more important thing is to join the bonus feed. Getting hip to the hipcom click bonus feed. 0:01:14 - Speaker 2You. 0:01:41 - Speaker 3A live hip record on May 2 for a weekend. What more could I have asked for? It was 1997 and I was getting ready to do my annual sojourn from Toronto back home to Waterford. The hip was still number one for me and this record was something I had been craving since having first seen them live. For some reason, though, it didn't scratch my itch the way I wanted it to. No matter how many times I spun the CD on my discman, i just couldn't get as excited about it as I did for a studio record. Were the hips so good live that it was impossible to capture the greatness in ones and zeros? I don't know, but what I can tell you is the album has aged extremely well and it's often something I go back to when I need a jolt that, for whatever reason, it didn't offer me back in 97. Now, in this episode recorded before his untimely passing, we get into the late Davis Manning. So allow me to acknowledge that now. Rest in peace, davis. If you've been following along, you know how hungry Tim and Pete are for a live performance from the band. Although they'll never get to see them in person, the time is right to unleash live between us onto them? Will they eat it up the way I think they will? We'll find out today. on Getting Hip to the Hip. Long Sliced Brewery presents Getting Hip to the Hip. If you've ever wondered what it would be like to hear the tragically hips music for the first time again, here's your chance. Join music fans Pete and Tim from Portland, who have never heard the band before, on a journey through the hips discography, accompanied by me, their guide, jd. Welcome to Getting Hip to the Hip. How's it going, guys? 0:03:56 - Speaker 5Going great, it's going good. 0:03:59 - Speaker 1Fantastic Couldn't be better. 0:04:01 - Speaker 5Glad to be back. 0:04:03 - Speaker 3Yeah, it is, it is. It's good to be back at it. Okay, before we get into things here, we are talking about the live record that everybody was really waiting for. You know, around the time it came out It was 1997. Everybody had heard that this was a really great band to see live and to experience live, and so we were all longing for, you know, a live record, and when it was announced we were really quite excited And I'm curious how you guys felt. But before we get into your feelings, let's take a look under the hood of this record. This one was recorded live at Kobo Arena in Detroit, michigan, november 23rd 1996. It was released May 24th 1997 for the long weekend. Produced by the tragically hip and Mark Freakin. It clocks in at 70 minutes and 31 seconds and it was released on MCA. All Music gave this a 2.5 out of 5. And here's what they had to say about this. The tragically hip, one of Canada's musical merry makers, are also praised for their raw, sweaty live performances. Frontman Gordon Downey is a real dynamo, lyrically and physically, and his bandmates only support the beautiful live chaos. With that aside, the hip treated fans with their first ever live album, live Between Us, recorded well. On tour in support of 1996's Trouble at the Henhouse, live Between Us documents one of the band's more ambitious evenings. Without any technical tweaking, a very loyal Detroit audience is captured at the sold out Kobo Arena and a very tight knit and fiery, tragically hip is in command. The unity between the hip and their fans depicts something heavy. Downey's random improvising and loose poetic ramblings spark the intro of Grace 2. It creeps along with Johnny Faye's electric percussion and already Live Between Us is a steady, creatively stripped and vibrant. The emotional rage fully, completely sets up the rest of the record, particularly the relaxed ballad ahead by a century Layered backing vocals and plucking acoustics depict the hip's signature sincerity and the sneaky rock snippets of David Bowie's China Girl And the Beach Boys Don't Worry Baby midway through New Orleans' sink and flow without hesitance. Most stunningly is his lyrical rant of Jane Sivarys' The Temple Near the End of the Taunting Nautical Disaster, which also includes a verse from the reaesthetics Bad Time to Be Poor. As a whole, the band is abrasive in a simplistic sense, making Live Between Us an intimate jam between the band members themselves and a shared moment with the fans. The tragically bad men have maintained their beloved status because of such grateful informality. What in the living fuck is a 2.5 out of 5? The only negative word in there is abrasive, and abrasive comes right to the end. It's such a pussy review, wow. 0:07:15 - Speaker 1It's a bitch review. It's like going out on the best date of your life or something and then just saying like, yeah, maybe I'll call you next week or whatever, or maybe I won't. I can't even think of something stupid and shitty to compare it to, because it's so fucking bullshit. Sorry, what a shit. the bed review that is Sorry. 0:07:42 - Speaker 5Well, i have a maybe, maybe, why So kind of the elephant in the room on this recording is the actual show is longer than what they put out for the album And we're missing all these. We're missing, yeah, we're missing all these songs. So if you, let's say, the writer, went to this show in Detroit and was so psyched about it And then a year or whatever, whatever it was, later bought the album and brought it home and realized it was three quarters of the songs and they don't even get the actual ending of the show on the record, and so you're kind of you're like you're playing if you got this on vinyl or CD, you're playing like the highlights of the show And as a very amateur taper and someone who absolutely loves live shows and kind of you know, on some of the bad weeks lives for them, you know, when I listened through this I was like okay, is this just the hits? Like what is this album Like? I really questioned what was going on with it. I absolutely loved it And I loved. You know I have all these comments about everything that I dig from it But at the same time I'm like God damn. So that's when I pursued the search of the whole recording, start to finish, because I mean I have socked away whole recordings of shows And this is not a whole recording. 0:09:11 - Speaker 3Yeah, it's interesting. It's interesting, I wonder. I was just going to say it's interesting. I wonder why they did it that way. What do you think, pete? That's what I was going to say. 0:09:21 - Speaker 1No, it's totally yeah, because here's a couple things Like I see what you're saying, but I'm also looking at this from 1996, number one, number two it's on MCA, which at the time MCA was a really large record company. Okay, so you know, you've got, you've got the record company's influence of. oh, i don't think this track should be on there, whatever They take it off. You know they wanted this to be a sellable record that they were going to put out number one. I'm not defending it, i'm just saying I'm just trying to get in the mind of the methodology of what, why these decisions were made. And on top of it, i think nowadays bands will put out a live record and it'll be like you know, because, for example, new Orleans is sinking. You know, nowadays that would be New Orleans is sinking. Parenthetical China girl slash, don't worry, they met me or something. You know they'll throw that shit in, whereas back in the day, when you had a packaged live record, that shit was a no. No, you know, i didn't see it a lot that I remember Either way. Dude, this fuck all music, dude. I think that's the narrative we need to stick with, because they don't know what the fuck is going on. 0:10:38 - Speaker 5It. Just this record blew me away. Yeah, I would say. I would just add that my my only thought behind their low review score is because they didn't get all the show, Maybe they went to it and they saw it and they wanted to hear it all again. Yeah, exactly, or maybe they didn't, i don't know, but it's just the review is written It was a bad way. 0:11:01 - Speaker 3Kindly like it's. so it's such a nice review, really, until the word abrasive comes out and then which is weird And then it ends with like a nice, like they're redeemed, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and then it's like 2.5. It's like this person is a hard grader man. That's all I'm going to say. 0:11:20 - Speaker 1But I don't, i don't buy that. Oh, i mean, i see what you're saying, tim, again about the record. You know. But look at, you know, a lot of live records aren't even a whole concert, let alone you're going to put a whole concert. So if a band plays for you know, three hours or plays a three hour set, like the Stones, and they put out a live record, they're not going to do that. Led Zeppelin's How the West is One great live record. It's probably. You know, if you look at the back and the liner notes, it's recorded in Madison Square Garden, it's recorded at the Long Beach Arena. It's recorded different places. It's not one concert. They kind of just took the best takes. 0:11:57 - Speaker 3I do like they used just the Kobo Hall performance because a lot of bands do that for live. They do like two or three nights and they record and they pick the best stuff. 0:12:08 - Speaker 5The actual album is about 83% of the show, so you you miss the whole. Encore There is some. There is some missing there The entire encore you missed. 0:12:17 - Speaker 3So what you do get the end of the record is the Weirothal, which is the last song they played. But whatever we missing, it goes Grace to fully completely springtime in Vienna. Trust my arm gift shop ahead by a century. The luxury 700 foot ceiling is not on there. 0:12:33 - Speaker 2Courage. 0:12:34 - Speaker 3That sucks, is courage on there. 0:12:36 - Speaker 5Daredevil is not. Daredevil is not Daredevil is not. 0:12:40 - Speaker 3Flamenco is not Scape is at hand for the traveling man is not, which is crazy because that's on the next record. So they were showcasing Wow, yeah, yeah, if anyone's got this. 0:12:52 - Speaker 5No, i'm thinking, don't wake, daddy. 0:12:55 - Speaker 3Yeah, please send an email to Tim at getting hip to the hipcom. He's a completist. I need it. Oh little bones man That would have been fucking rad. 0:13:06 - Speaker 5Yeah, ender with me locked in the trunk of a car would have been the ominous Ender. But then you got little bones, so new, the very end. I mean we got you another recording. You get 82, like I said, 83% of the whole entire show, which is killer. And you know, honestly, a positive there is it gives people access to the hip live who may own like one album, and then they pick up a CD with a bunch of live shit and they're like, oh man, why haven't we seen this band play yet? You know, so that could be part of it. It's a little bit of a teaser without an encore or a second encore. I mean I don't know, though That's all the same time. I've, i've recorded shows and I've sent friends just the encore, just kind of piss them off, but sometimes like from a recording. Sometimes for me, listening to the encore, like the last three, four songs, you're like fuck, yeah, that probably was an amazing show. I get it And you know this recording without hearing the, on course I pretty much get it too, but just specifically, i talk about the show. 0:14:10 - Speaker 3Yeah, well, this is what I want to. I want to sort of level off with the audience. You know how we're going to approach this Yeah. And you know, you came up with the idea of approaching it like it's a real concert, like let's give, give it a concert review. My curiosity starts to go from there. What do you look for in a live concert without referencing this record? What, what are? or, if you want to reference this record, what do you look for when you go to a show like that makes it a great show. 0:14:40 - Speaker 5Yeah, well, oftentimes it's the crowd. Man, if it's a rock and roll band, if it's a band with energy, you know there's. There's a electronic duo that we love, that we've seen play a handful of times. That really gets their crowd going like it. Just, oftentimes it's the crowd. You know, at the beginning of this album, as I listened to it, i thought, okay, probably not, because I didn't research it much. You know, i was excited to hear a live album But I thought, you know, it's probably not. The stadium sounds big, though definitely arena feeling and crowd sounds pretty hyped. They weren't. They weren't screaming like a bunch of fucking going crazy, drunk ass Canadians. They were hyped But it wasn't. To me it didn't feel like a home show. Well Tim, the ABV in the back blue is not that high Just well, sure, sure, sure, sure, Sure, sure, but you know, but when I did research it I was like, oh, i was like, oh, detroit, okay, detroit shows must have been really fun Because you know, you're in the US, you're in the USA. Whether or not is highly regarded in Detroit is like there is their home away from home. So the crowd for me was either way like hitting the mark that the crowd was pumped in the just right off the bat I had wondered about you know, because I'm nerdy that way like how it was recorded And I thought about the time and the era and what people were using to record stuff. So I did a little bit of research on that note, just to see, like what the heck or see if there are any notes about how they recorded this thing, because back then it was like dat recorders or radar recorders. I mean it was like the kind of the evolution beginning evolution of digital audio recording which people could then just pump out on the scene or mini discs around. 0:16:28 - Speaker 3At that point I forget when I had, i had a. 0:16:30 - Speaker 5Yeah that was, that was the yeah, those things were cool. Yeah, that was around the same time. You could yeah, you could plug those straight into a sound board and get like CD quality. So I was curious about that as a taper person, you know, just to hear how it went down, because it overall you know whether it was on my home sonosystem or my basement PSS premium sound system or on my my home headphones, my Bose headphones, like it sounds fucking good Like whoever. Whoever posted this did a great job. 0:17:06 - Speaker 3What did you think, pete, in terms of your rubric for measuring a live show? 0:17:13 - Speaker 1It's a it's a weird question because you know, and Tim comes from a place of recording a million shows in his history On me. I look, i gotta kind of look at it back. We gotta kind of look at this backwards because, number one, we worn out the show. You know, if we judge it by the crowd, i think, but by anybody's standards, you know, the show that Peter Frampton played at the Fillmore West for Frampton Comes Alive was was a banger on the show. But if you know anything about that record they dubbed in the audience of the crowd. Do you know? do you know that, right, tim? 0:17:47 - Speaker 5Boo. 0:17:47 - Speaker 1I say that Boo, i mean it's, it's, it's. the American Idol effect is of of making things seem like they're popular when they're not. 0:17:57 - Speaker 5Now I have a. It's the fucking laugh track, you know it's a laugh track. 0:18:02 - Speaker 1So I have a weird take on this. This record made me, gave me a weird take on this band as a whole that I'm really looking forward to show you guys. But just to your question, jd, before I get ahead of myself. I think the the show you can. You can hear how good the show was from the band and what the energy that the bands convey, what Gord Downey's saying and how he's interacting with the crowd, cause you never know with the crowd again. The Frampton record but based on what you're hearing from the band, it was a fucking rager. Yeah, whoever was at this show you know, kiss my ass, i wish I, i wish I was there, i mean, you weren't there. 0:18:49 - Speaker 3She was an email. JD at getting hip to the hipcom. 0:18:52 - Speaker 5Hey, jd, question for you. 0:18:53 - Speaker 3Call her Go ahead Yeah. 0:18:55 - Speaker 5Yeah, jd, you know. So after I did research this show a bit, i came upon the reason why it's named what it's named. Do you want to share that? And yeah, so it sounded like in the early days the hip had a sax player. 0:19:15 - Speaker 3David's. 0:19:15 - Speaker 5Manning, that's right, am I right? 0:19:17 - Speaker 3Yeah, talked about him in the first episode. 0:19:20 - Speaker 5So that that kind of rocks, yeah, yeah, I forgot all about that. I forgot all about that, obviously, and and I thought, oh my God, and I just I just kind of sat there and wondered about everything I've listened to and how there has been no sax player. And there could have been a sax player, you know, and there's, and it recalled to mind some bands that I love that have horn players that you know really feels like part of the soul of that band with this horn player. So can you imagine, like recordings up to this date, having this sax player? that's like you know, i don't know, would he have been the equivalent of I don't know the guy's name, the guy that plays um Phil or violin for Dave Matthews, you know, wouldn't have been this overwhelming presence, so that that first of all. 0:20:08 - Speaker 3First of all, dave Matthews, barf Barf. 0:20:12 - Speaker 5Oh, i know right, the best, the best story about Dave Matthews Segway is the story about his tour bus in Chicago. Do you guys know this story? 0:20:22 - Speaker 1Oh yeah, the the, yeah, the shit. 0:20:24 - Speaker 5Yeah, So he's he's. 0:20:25 - Speaker 1I thought you were going to say Clarence Clemens of uh, yeah, that's where I thought it was No, Yeah, Dave Matthews tour bus. 0:20:32 - Speaker 5You know they're whoever's on the bus, but they're driving in Chicago across an abridge and they're uh, they're black water tank, which is all the poo, poo and wee wee supposedly broke open and burst onto a bunch of tourists on a on a boat platform, boat going down the river on a scene. 0:20:50 - Speaker 3Oh my God. 0:20:51 - Speaker 5So Dave Matthews has actually shit on fans, so that's, that was pretty fun. Anyway, back to this. 0:21:00 - Speaker 3Hey, today's all about live music. 0:21:02 - Speaker 1Metaphorically and and sonically. 0:21:05 - Speaker 5I I last week I turned down the opportunity to co-host that Dave Matthews podcast. Um, so so this fellow uh, uh, uh, dave, dave is manning It was at a crossroads with staying in the band or not and was given to ultimate him by his girlfriend, who I wonder if he's even still with her doubt it. And, um, she, she noted that that the hip lives between us, to him, to Davis. So she was like you know, the band lives in between us in bed, the band is in between us. You got to pick, you got to pick one of us, pick the band or pick me And he's supposedly chose her, and this was spray painted on the wall of I don't remember some building I don't know in in whatever Queens Yeah, in Kingston, and, uh, you know when, it was lived between us. So I think the actual record is lived between us, but everybody calls it live between us because it's live. 0:22:06 - Speaker 3That's why I've all got it live between us. But yeah, i knew that, but I knew that story. But I still call it live between us. I don't yeah What man. if you've got to take on that Pete, do you? 0:22:15 - Speaker 1But isn't that a? isn't that a dick move, dude, like I mean? it's a I got to. How do you for the band in their current form to name it? 0:22:24 - Speaker 5that is like I think it's awesome. 0:22:28 - Speaker 1I think it's awesome too, but God. 0:22:29 - Speaker 5Here's the code It says. There, in an alley that now stands beside a tattoo parlor, he painted a huge mural featuring a weeping eye and a shooting star, which is hard to decipher. In the art He painted the hip live between us in large letters across the wall and an apparent reference to he and his lover. In the end, davis chose his girl, left the band and continues to be an active musician to this day. The mural stood until the summer of 2005, when it was painted over by local business owners. His artwork was used as the CD art, which is fucking hilarious and perfect for the hips 97 live release. The disc, in clever turn of phrase, was called live between us. 0:23:12 - Speaker 3That's very cool. 0:23:13 - Speaker 5Perfect. It's just perfect. I love it. That right there just made me love the whole thing. It was like great story, Great story. 0:23:21 - Speaker 3So let's start at the start. With the opener is Grace to a good opener. Hello. 0:23:55 - Speaker 2This is for the real statics. We're all richer for having seen them tonight. All right, i got a son, came up shocked with the lines. Today was the day that I was already behind Steal the drink. Our brothers and sisters, our young all-ter체 Note Uhl are here at the site. Come on, blir gladzis. I can hear a singing. I'm turned off from No, they don't know no more. That's why I'm here, for I kept them downtown, but I'm ready for you. I went well into Dona Nace and Brace to leave. I'm a little bit alone. I was, so I'm a little bit. I can't hear you. Can't you fucking hear that man? Can't you fucking hear that? Can't you hear what I heard? Look out, jesus Christ, big fuckin' bear. The secret rules of engagement Are hard to endorse When the appearance of comfort Meets the appearance of force, when I can guarantee They've been a knock on the door, i can't hear you. I'm turned off from here. I'm turned off from the door. That's why I'm here, for I kept them downtown, but I'm ready for you. I went to scale and it's my strength. Yes to you. I didn't give a fuck. Where the hell did you get an inch? I never fought for a thing. I never fought for anything. I got a palace wage gone to do. I'm like so many of you. I see around me Nothing to live or die for, no limits in tune. Help, help, no, no. I was growing up in town. I was growing up in town And I was gonna pick up my friends And I know you'll come to some kind of dead end. Oh, but I can swear there's a bear. I can swear there's a place where all is A bit to be manned And you can never be a piece of cake. And then there's everyone Around you smiling and everyone Around you styling. You got nothing to worry about. And then you got nothing to worry about. You got nothing to worry about. You got nothing to worry about. 0:29:31 - Speaker 1So fucking Lulie, absolutely, i mean. 0:29:34 - Speaker 5Perfect. 0:29:35 - Speaker 1It's just the way they come into it. I pictured like I don't know if they had played arenas this big before I know they toured. They sounded so tight, they couldn't fuck up if they tried, you know. And this band just sounded so good. Yeah, what was this? How far was this show off of their SNL release? SNL appearance. 0:30:12 - Speaker 3Oh well, snl was March of 95 and this was November of 96. 0:30:22 - Speaker 1Yeah, i mean, they knew then that this was a banger of a tune. But just What a way to ease in, to get everybody to get the water warm in the bathtub. Man. 0:30:36 - Speaker 3Did you dip your toes in the bath there, timmy? 0:30:40 - Speaker 5I did, i did, and it's good. The jets came on right away, so in the tub. So, yeah, i loved his phrase. Sun came up and shot through the blinds. Today was a day And I was already behind. You know, like I First of all, great line, great, just random thing. And it was also like I don't know. I love that phrase Cause to me it was like Sun came up and shot through the blinds. Today was a day And I was already behind. You know, and this is this to me, is a line that says it's kind of okay, you know, it's okay to be behind. You know, i don't know, i just you could read this line in so many ways. You can read it as like You're fucked, or you can read it as fuck it, and I love that about it. So, you know, there's there's just the grace to as a starter. You know, the first time I heard it as a starter live was that 99, woodstock, woodstock, yeah, yeah, yeah. And the first time I heard that was like okay, this is what gets the crowd going, this is, this is the shot in the arm energizer, and you know this, this is it for for this show as well. And to try, i love he has. Gord has one of his now iconic Woo. Yes, this is like, yes, the crowd is psyched, we're psyched. You know, that's to me going back to the crowd, kind of making the show. There you go, he screams. He's got like he does this droll, this guttural scream. You know, come from downtown. You know it's just, i just love it. I love it yeah, i love it when singers kind of stray and do something a little bit different Than the recordings and just get fucking into it, and that's that's how this started, for sure. 0:32:35 - Speaker 3And it carries on into a song that I don't recall how you felt about it on the fully, completely record, but to me this live version is so like, almost like psychedelic-y and like maybe it's because I've been listening to it high, i don't know but there's something really awesome about the live version It just unlocks live. I'm curious if you agree about certain songs, in this case, fully, completely Getting unlocked in a live version. 0:33:17 - Speaker 1The perfect word you use is unlocked. I couldn't think of a better word to use, because I don't know if they make them anymore. They used to be these 12-cylinder Mercedes-Benz two-door coupes. Do you remember those, Timmy run around. 0:33:35 - Speaker 5Yeah, yeah, they came with like an extra, extra gas tax on the They're ridiculous. 0:33:40 - Speaker 1Who needs this 12-cylinder? 0:33:46 - Speaker 5It was like a luxury gas tax in California that was added. 0:33:49 - Speaker 1That's how I feel about this song. 0:33:52 - Speaker 5And. 0:33:52 - Speaker 1I actually remember, because I remember thinking about it too. Jd, this was a song that I didn't say. I didn't like it but it wasn't my favorite on the record. I remember specifically because it was the title track And this was like again, a nice Mercedes, i would say a Ferrari, but whatever, whatever, your nice car is that you like sitting in your driveway and being like that's really cool, that's really pretty to look at. Okay, then you get in your fucking Honda, your fucking shitty beater, and you drive to work, but the live record gives you the keys to open it up and to fucking take it for a spin And it was, oh my God, yeah, exactly Like I really enjoyed this tune. It made me like and respect this tune for what it is And yeah, i mean think of all the reasons why. But again, you know I'll say that for a couple of other tunes. But I loved it, kim. What? 0:34:52 - Speaker 5do you think, man, i related to it quite a bit. You know I loved his singing, ranting poetry, whatever. At the beginning He's talking about being in love with the old rule being raised by TV. I mean, that's me, you know, that's my childhood. But I will add the end of this, which I couldn't find any reference on. Maybe someone else can find it. But towards the end of this I think is the first time he starts singing lyrics from other bands at the show And I didn't find this noted. So he, towards the end, he starts singing. Please take me there. He sings there's a light that never goes out. These are lyrics from the fucking Smiths from the 80s And I have a feeling, you know, i'd really just wish I could know what the band was listening to from early through later, like what they were really jiving with. You know what they listened to on the bus and what their influences were. If they were carrying around CD player, fucking Walkman, whatever. You know what they were jamming to cause. There's more see early, more see lyrics here. I might be wrong, It might just be a coincidence, but when I heard that the first time I was like fuck. 0:36:12 - Speaker 1Well, we know what Tim was listening to, please. 0:36:16 - Speaker 5One of my first. Honestly, that's one of my. My second tape was the Smiths Queen is Dead. 0:36:22 - Speaker 1Same here. 0:36:24 - Speaker 5That was it. So, yeah, i felt like this took it bigger. I hear the song in this order at this show. It took it a level bigger and louder and took it a level more aggressive. It was like Pete, you know the V12, you drive your shitty Honda, but you get in a car. it's a V12. It's like a jet boat, you know. and this I felt, i felt fully, completely, really dug in and kept us accelerating. I love your old ways, i love your old world ways is what he sings towards the end And I just that's so romantic to me. That's like pulling on my heartstrings because, you know, I'm a Gen Xer. There's so many times in my life where I want to throw my iPhone across a room. Yeah. 0:37:11 - Speaker 1Yeah, the torque it gave us, i thought one of the. I thought the crazy part about springtime in Vienna was and if I remember correctly, he introduces it And I don't know if the crowd goes nuts for it. But I'm just thinking to myself like the minute this song starts. I'd fucking lose all my shit if I'm in the car. 0:37:35 - Speaker 5Yeah, yeah, losing my shit. 0:37:37 - Speaker 1And the fact that he introduces it is almost like, kind of like, is he doing it because it's a light record? And there's maybe people that are gonna buy this record and not be looking at the back of the CD when they when it's on, i mean I don't know because, whatever, but this song, i mean just when it goes on the fucking chorus, it's just it's madness too. 0:38:02 - Speaker 5It's Yeah, you love this song. 0:38:04 - Speaker 1You hate to be loved, right? Yeah, i love this song and I just feel like if I I can hear the band having so much fun playing this song, you can hear it. 0:38:17 - Speaker 5Yeah, you can, you can. You can hear it a lot of times throughout this whole performance. Yeah, you can hear the amount of fun, i think, through the bass that's happening. You know there's some really the bass guitar so many times to me is like fuck, these guys were into it, you know. And springtime in Vienna, just like that. I felt like that was the point in the show, where you're like either chugging down your second beer or you're lighting up another spliff or whatever. Like this is like serious momentum. twist my arm, which was next, you know That to me felt I don't know that's that to me for this position of this show. This is like where you were dancing, Like this is super fun, like it felt danceable. You know, it's like I'm not standing still at this show. That was my comment for that one. 0:39:14 - Speaker 1I got some weird takes, i mean and these aren't necessarily related to this particular songs And the first thing I want to say is that I feel like like when I was young, jd, my dad used to tell me when I was playing in a band, you need to play with dynamics, right. And when you're young and you're just fucking want to turn your amp up louder than the guy next to you, you don't know what the fuck dynamics are. And it's ironically. You know, i don't have to give away my age, but I'm up there And I still I'm trying to play with people who don't know what the fuck dynamics are. Some people get it, some people never get it. It's just the ability to listen to one another, to play to the band, not to just play your instrument right, and this you can just tell. This band is weathered by the road. They have amazing dynamics to start songs like well, springtime in Vienna gift shop, especially a head by a century which builds. So just do this, do what is. Isn't it the most streamed song of the band period? Yeah, yeah. 0:40:31 - Speaker 5Head by a century. 0:40:32 - Speaker 1Yeah, head by a century, which is funny because race two on this record has more streams on this live record than head by a century. 0:40:45 - Speaker 3Oh really. 0:40:46 - Speaker 1Yeah. 0:40:48 - Speaker 3Oh wow, well, maybe it's not that, i'm not sure What. We should look that up, you know. 0:40:55 - Speaker 1You know me, though, but yeah, I think they know what they're doing on stage clearly. 0:41:03 - Speaker 5Yeah, you don't want a drummer or a guitarist or a fucking keyboardist. I'll talk a little, reference the doors there for two seconds. You don't want another musician in your band getting in the way. You know, like I actually, who is it, i'll recall. But anyways, i heard someone once say yeah, i just can't have a drummer who gets in the way. You know, you don't want somebody just cranking themselves too often And I think that's kind of what you're saying. Pete, this show, you know it. just it gets this momentum going to where you might all of a sudden realize oh shit, we're already in song five or this is already the sixth song. Like, i feel like their shows have this build up. I would assume now, after hearing this one, that their shows kind of have this build up and then they start carrying people. you know, before you, yeah, before you realize it, you're like, oh, my God, you know, it's probably halfway over or something, i don't know. It's like a century when it, yeah by century, when it started on this recording, that kind of felt like a mile marker with Gordon, his goofy start, when he's doing his one liners and making sense and not making sense at all, like that. that was kind of like the check in to to like yeah, catharsis one Yeah. That all about right, right. That to me was like let's see how into it the crowd is. You know, maybe we'll make somebody fall over with these statements, i don't know. But that, but there's a moment in a head by a century on this recording that I've kind of been waiting for to hear these guys live, do And that's like a right around the three minute marker. So they just start riffing a little bit more. They dig, they dig a little bit deeper. They reached that, you know, five fifth speed of the V12 Mercedes and they're finally on the stretch of freeway where they can let it go a little bit. And that's that's what happens with with this song. I've been waiting, waiting to hear that. So that was, that was good, that was good for me. 0:43:10 - Speaker 3Gift shop I wanted to ask you guys about, because gift shop to me feels like grace two, in the sense that it's like an opener Like. It feels like an opener to me. So I'm just curious about where it gets put. Like you've you've talked about this car metaphor you know you get grace two to open the show, then fully, completely, which sort of like you know, gets you, gets you sort of high, and then springtime in Vienna to get you jumping up and down And then twist my arm is like an old classic at this point. So you're like wow, like, like Tim said, you're dancing, And then gift shop sort of resets everything. 0:43:52 - Speaker 2You know what I mean. The rest of the world becomes a gift shop. So you're like wow, like Tim said, you're dancing. You're like wow, like Tim said you're dancing. You're like wow, like Tim said, you're dancing. You're like wow, like Tim said you're dancing. You're like wow, like Tim said, you're dancing. I don't know what to believe. Sometimes I even forget. And if it's a lie, a terrorist may be saying A beautiful love, a dangerous time, we get to feel a smile. I'm high up above. I'm high up above. I'm high up above. I'm high up above. I'm high up above. I'm high up above. I'm high up above. I don't know what to believe. 0:47:43 - Speaker 5I wish I knew what to believe. I knew what to believe. Close the window. You'll hear the sound of death. Run, run, run, run run. 0:48:38 - Speaker 1I feel like gift shops an opener too. Absolutely. If you want to use the car analogy, that's cool, but if we're powering a big amplifier with a car battery, it's like it's got some juice, it's got some sound. It's really pushing. You're waking up the neighbors and you hook up a second car battery. Now all the tubes are really lit up. Gift shops. It's just like Grace II and that it's another opener. It's the nitrous oxide on the engine. It just puts the show forward even faster and harder. 0:49:28 - Speaker 5I agree with that. I think it's not my favorite song simply because it's. I feel like it's. I don't know we're up to bat against a pitcher. You know you're going to get it on. It's an easy one, the chorus is easy, it's sing-alongable. I think gift shop could be an opener of the show, but I feel like it fits here well, because it's like dude, we've had the basses loaded twice. We're going to have the basses loaded twice. Let's just fucking keep bringing them in. And that's gift shop for me for sure. 0:50:02 - Speaker 3A lot of the baseball. 0:50:04 - Speaker 5Yeah, that was for you, buddy. 0:50:06 - Speaker 3Basses loaded twice. So the basses were loaded with Grace II, fully completed in springtime in Canada, and then gift shop ahead by a century and the luxury which is. This is a cool thing. If you're exploring Hiptim, you to Hiptim and you want to explore, there's a website called HIPBASE H-I-P-B-A-S-Ecom And it's got like every lot. It's like setlistfm, except for it. It's got super detailed statistics Like so, for example, the luxury this was only the 19th time that it played the luxury live. That's interesting. Yeah, it's like it's an older song at this point, but they've only played it 19 times. They only ended up playing it 65 times in total in their career. 0:51:01 - Speaker 1I feel like it's a good. It brings it down a little bit. It it, it. It mellows it out. You know, i mean being as that ahead by a century was such a popular song, like the crowd was going I mean they were going to eat shit right. When that song started, as it was This kind of like you know, take some away from the edge for a little bit. It's a really cool song, super cool bass groove. I love that. Yeah, one thing that really showcases Tim Is that on your guys' end, That's on my end. 0:51:38 - Speaker 3I think, yeah, that's JD, i come from downtown. 0:51:42 - Speaker 1One thing that Tim mentioned about drummer not getting in your way. It's crazy Again because, like my thoughts on this record are more broad and as opposed to individual songs, but I felt like like Gord Downey for the longest time and listening to the records and listening to it at this point has been the draw, and not in a bad way, but I'm saying it in the context of what Tim said the guy who's in everybody's way And I don't mean that in a bad way because he's such a fucking talent, absolutely And this was the first time where I was actually and I feel kind of like a fucking douchebag, because when it comes to the whole entire band I mean the entire band you really hear like whoa, these motherfuckers are good musicians, these guys are Yeah. And that's really hard to come through on a record because you don't know when what's recorded, how it's cut together. 0:52:42 - Speaker 5Yep. 0:52:42 - Speaker 1All that. When you hear it live you're like, okay, this is the way it sounded there And everybody sounds so good. So it's, you don't hear and I don't mean that again at this respect of Gord Downey getting in anybody's way, but like he's so good It's sort of hard to not Have that guy overshadowed. Yeah, yeah, the band, but live you don't get that vibe at all. On the records I sort of do. The records are really smooth, this far sort of, but on the fucking live performance holy shit. 0:53:16 - Speaker 3Yeah, and that's. It's funny because that was one of the questions I literally just wrote down. I was going to ask you guys if the band, if you feel differently about the band now that you've heard them play live, and you just answered that exact question, do you get what I'm saying now about being sort of an improv troupe? 0:53:35 - Speaker 5Yes. 0:53:36 - Speaker 3Because Gord will sort of carry on and do his own thing and they still have to end a song And they don't know if he's like how far he's going. Or sometimes they'll just end a song and go into, go right into something else And he's still sort of like finishing a thought or explaining an idea or whatever. 0:53:59 - Speaker 1The musicians clearly all listen to each other enough to know when to where things are going, You know. 0:54:07 - Speaker 3Yeah, And they're just as in charge as he is in a sense. 0:54:12 - Speaker 5I have to wonder what that would have been like if Davis was playing sax and all this, you know might not have been. It would have been different. Could you imagine just having a horn blowing in here and there? Yeah, like I said, having horns and bands and having a fit. but oh it may have been, I don't know I think like in excess. 0:54:34 - Speaker 3You know, they were good with the sax, yeah, but yeah, it would have been different for sure. 0:54:38 - Speaker 5Last night we were listening to this band that I loved, loved, from Boston, called Morphine. If anyone hasn't listened to Morphine, you got to check them out. They're no longer, but they were a three piece and saxophone, bass player and drummer, and that was it. It's one of the perfect examples of a unique rock and roll band where saxophone fits in and leads and doesn't take over, because it was such a unique trifecta of you know of a band. But you know, i just I think where was I going to go with this? I think, yeah, i think it would have been so different. I just circled back to the luxury. I commented on this before. It's noted on the internet, of course, but I would love, jd, for you to to play the end, maybe, of the luxury of this one and then blend in, come as you are from Nirvana, cause dude, it's the same. I mean they, they, the band was listening to Nirvana. It's just the same guitar, the same bass. It's pretty fucking cool, and I've noticed that the first time I listened to the luxury, and it's completely evident in here as well. 0:55:57 - Speaker 3But the luxury came out in 91. How much art came out in 92? 0:56:03 - Speaker 5Well, they heard it, i swear. I mean it's timing or not? 0:56:09 - Speaker 3Or Nirvana heard it. 0:56:11 - Speaker 5Yeah, nirvana heard it, who knows? 0:56:12 - Speaker 1Yeah. 0:56:13 - Speaker 5But anyways, courage, So courage. I love courage. It couldn't come at a worse time. 0:56:47 - Speaker 2Where something more familiar, quickly something familiar. Can't change my words, it doesn't matter. Sleep, watch so fast, asleep in a motel that has a lay of hope And piss on out of your background And piss on three eyes around your face. Can't change my words, it doesn't matter. Can't change your words, it doesn't matter. Can't remember, it doesn't matter. Can't change my words. Time. It's pretty snowy in here. Snow is so merciless for old country. There's no sample explanation for anything important Any of us do and yet a human tragedies, obsession or necessity of living with the consequences of depression and depression. Can't change my words, it doesn't matter. Can't change your words, it doesn't matter. Can't change my words, it doesn't matter. Can't change my words. Can't change my words. Can't change my words. I'm a child of the church, god. Snow is so merciless for old country. There's a spite of everything that's happening. It's a spite of love. Can't change my words, don't you worry, i'm a child of the church, god. I'm a child of the church, god. Snow is so merciless for old country. 1:00:57 - Speaker 5Can't change my words. Can't change my words. I don't know. There's something about this song that it's positive. It's. You know, it's something I can't turn off when I hear it, Like I got to go through the whole song. I got to sing the chorus One of the coolest parts. The bridge, Yeah, yeah, it's good. One of the coolest parts of this live recording for me, of this song, Courage, is you can hear the crowd singing a little bit Like Gord stops. When Gord stops singing, the crowd carries the lyrics for him. There's a brief moment of that, which I just adore when bands do that, when the crowd is so into it that they just stop singing. But I have the question. I don't know, This is a question. Towards the end of this he starts to talk about Montreal and the snow and poor old Montreal, You know, and I guess that's a reveal on a song in the future about Montreal or something. 1:02:15 - Speaker 3Is that true? Actually, a song from the past. 1:02:18 - Speaker 5Oh, oh, oh oh. 1:02:20 - Speaker 3It was a song that was written for Road Apples. Oh, that's right. It never came to light until much later on, but they always played it. They always sort of kept it in the back pocket and would pull it out and play it occasionally, and there's a live recording of it that just came out in a box set. That is a really good live recording. I also have the demo. I have the demo from Road Apples Ooh, okay, cool, cool, cool, cool. So, yeah, it's a great song and it's fucking ooh, it's a tough one. It's about the young man who shot and murdered 14 young women at a school in Montreal, and it happened in late 80s and it's recognized annually as a result. 1:03:10 - Speaker 5Oh, yeah, So I just pulled that up. It's the massacre at Montreal's Polytechnic School, which was fueled by misogyny, horrifying memory of a bygone era. Damn Fuck. 1:03:27 - Speaker 3Yeah, so the song Montreal is about that. 1:03:33 - Speaker 5Got it. There's our heavy sort of segue in there to get us to New Orleans and Sinking. So New Orleans and Sinking for me. I don't know about you, pete, but man, this was fun. On this recording This is like crowd goes berserk. The guitar has this big start, the drums are big. It feels like we've reached top speed perhaps of the show. It oddly slows down about. There's a I don't know if you caught this, pete there's this tempo, little chug, slug, like it slowed down for just a little bit there. Like it really caught my attention that the band kind of went a tiny bit out of sync and I think that was with the drums. But man, this one I think the crowd was just, for lack of a better term banging their heads and just going along and, you know, felt so awesome The fucking David Bowie references at the end talking about where's my little China girl, all that you know that was China girl was like forever stethled to my brain because of MTV as a youngster. You know that was just such a memorable video for me Made me an instant David Bowie fan. It's just I just. New Orleans and Sinking. It might have been, might have been one of my. We're gonna get into it one of my top songs here. 1:05:25 - Speaker 2Silly way down this sidewalk in jail. My memory is muddy. What's this riff that I'm in? You gonna need to sink it, man. And I don't wanna say that I'm a child, i'm a throne. I'm going home, can't do this now. I'm a party, he said. You know yourself. Shut your big mouth. Gotta do what you feel is real. Got no pictures false gods. Got no shivers in these. My fingers she won't open when I'm thinking about those. Yeah, i'm a child, i'm a throne. I'm going home, can't do this now. I'm a party, he said. You know yourself. Shut your big mouth. Gotta do what you feel is real. I'm a child, i'm a throne. I'm going home, can't do this now. I'm a party, he said. You know yourself. Shut your big mouth. Gotta do what you feel is real With my ginocent girl. Wake up in the morning. Where's my ginocent girl? She's too tired, she's too small. Baby, just shut your mouth, she says. She says, yeah, don't worry, baby, everything will turn out alright. There's a light bulb hanging on a wire, sucking up the sun doesn't stoop to fire. Taking out the highlights of the scenery, saw some little clouds and looked a little like this In the river, my feet back up on the banks looked up to the Lord above, said hey, hey, hey, banks. Sometimes I feel so good I've got to scream. He says Georgie, baby, i know exactly what's the change He says. He says I swear to God. He says hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey. My memory is funny. What's his clever man of man? he won't need to sink in that, i don't want to sell Trout. 1:10:36 - Speaker 3Trout, trout, trout. 1:11:31 - Speaker 1Trout, trout, trout. 1:12:21 - Speaker 3Trout, trout, trout. 1:12:46 - Speaker 1Trout Trout. 1:13:00 - Speaker 5Trout, trout, trout, trout, trout, trout, trout, trout. 1:14:13 - Speaker 3Trout, trout, trout, trout, trout, trout, trout, trout. 1:15:25 - Speaker 5Trout Trout, trout Trout. 1:16:12 - Speaker 3Trout Trout. 1:16:21 - Speaker 1Trout Trout, trout Trout. 1:16:56 - Speaker 3Trout Trout. 1:17:13 - Speaker 4Trout Trout. Questions or concerns, email us at JD at GettingHipToTheHipcom. We'd love to hear from you. 1:18:16 - Speaker 3Hey, it's JD here. 1:18:18 - Speaker 5Hey, it's Tim. 1:18:19 - Speaker 3And Pete Fellows, i'm really excited that you're flying to Toronto on Friday, september 1st for our big party GettingHipToTheHip an evening for the Downey Wain Jack fund. We just need to sell some tickets. How are we going to do that? 1:18:33 - Speaker 5Go to our website GettingHipToTheHipcom and you'll find a link to get tickets to our event at the rec room in Toronto. 1:18:40 - Speaker 1Early burn tickets are 35 bucks. If you go to GettingHipToTheHipcom and click on the bonus fee, you get 10% off, which means tickets are 31.50 right now. If you were to join the bonus fee and buy tickets, you'd literally have to be stupid not to do that. Definitely join us on September 1st. I'll be at the bar putting out the vibe JD. where are you going to be at? 1:19:00 - Speaker 3I'm going to be watching 50 Mission perform some tragically hip songs and I'm really excited for you guys to see them. 1:19:06 - Speaker 5Yeah, and we have a silent auction which we've garnered some great prizes so far. It's amazing what people are donating. Some hip fans are really coming forward with some great donations And again, all proceeds are going to the Downey Wain Jack fund. 1:19:18 - Speaker 3And the Long Slice beer will be flowing because Long Slice is stepped up and they are our title sponsor for the event. How cool is that. 1:19:27 - Speaker 1I cannot wait to drink some delicious beer and also watch the comedy of Pete and I too, because that guy is a side splitter, that's for sure. September 1st, live Toronto, Be there, B-square, gettinghiptothehipcom, Click on the bonus feed at 10% off the tickets and we'll see you there. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/fully-and-completely/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

We're taking you on a journey through the Tragically Hip's live album, 'Live Between Us', which was released back in 1997. Our excitement leading up to its release was off the charts, and we're here to share that with you! We'll be dissecting some of the tracks on the album, such as 'Grace, too', 'Ahead By A Century', and 'Nautical Disaster'. Prepare to be immersed in the intimate connection between the band and their fans that this record so beautifully captures.In this episode, we dive deep into the recording process of 'Live Between Us', exploring the incredible energy of the show, and the role the audience played in the final product. Also, get ready for an insight into the potential impact a sax player could've had on the band's sound, as well as a fascinating anecdote about Dave Matthews' tour bus incident in Chicago. Plus, we'll delve into the tough decision faced by sax player David Manning – stay with the Hip or leave with his girlfriend?Finally, let's talk about the Tragically Hip's songwriting process and live performance dynamics. We'll discuss how the energy of the show and the crowd's reactions influenced their performances, and examine the live version of 'Fully Completely', which unlocked the song in a completely different way from the original recording. We'll also touch on the band's influences and listening habits, and how they incorporated lyrics from other bands into their set. So, join us as we unearth the magic of 'Springtime in Vienna' and the excitement its introduction caused among the crowd. You don't want to miss this!Transcrip0:00:00 - Speaker 1So, guys, this is Pete here. I'm coming to you with a very important message. Okay, this is serious stuff. I know we joke around a lot on the on the pod, but in all honesty, i'm asking for a favor. I need you to do yourselves a favor. I need you to do your family and friends a favor. I need you to do society as a whole favor. Go to getting hip to the hipcom, click on the bonus feed and join the bonus feed, because there's some pretty next level content or covering everything from geopolitics to UFOs and the tragically hit most importantly, but you're really not gonna want to miss it. So, again, do yourself a favor, do the next generation a favor. Okay, before you, before you focus on recycling and nobody cares about climate change, the more important thing is to join the bonus feed. Getting hip to the hipcom click bonus feed. 0:01:14 - Speaker 2You. 0:01:41 - Speaker 3A live hip record on May 2 for a weekend. What more could I have asked for? It was 1997 and I was getting ready to do my annual sojourn from Toronto back home to Waterford. The hip was still number one for me and this record was something I had been craving since having first seen them live. For some reason, though, it didn't scratch my itch the way I wanted it to. No matter how many times I spun the CD on my discman, i just couldn't get as excited about it as I did for a studio record. Were the hips so good live that it was impossible to capture the greatness in ones and zeros? I don't know, but what I can tell you is the album has aged extremely well and it's often something I go back to when I need a jolt that, for whatever reason, it didn't offer me back in 97. Now, in this episode recorded before his untimely passing, we get into the late Davis Manning. So allow me to acknowledge that now. Rest in peace, davis. If you've been following along, you know how hungry Tim and Pete are for a live performance from the band. Although they'll never get to see them in person, the time is right to unleash live between us onto them? Will they eat it up the way I think they will? We'll find out today. on Getting Hip to the Hip. Long Sliced Brewery presents Getting Hip to the Hip. If you've ever wondered what it would be like to hear the tragically hips music for the first time again, here's your chance. Join music fans Pete and Tim from Portland, who have never heard the band before, on a journey through the hips discography, accompanied by me, their guide, jd. Welcome to Getting Hip to the Hip. How's it going, guys? 0:03:56 - Speaker 5Going great, it's going good. 0:03:59 - Speaker 1Fantastic Couldn't be better. 0:04:01 - Speaker 5Glad to be back. 0:04:03 - Speaker 3Yeah, it is, it is. It's good to be back at it. Okay, before we get into things here, we are talking about the live record that everybody was really waiting for. You know, around the time it came out It was 1997. Everybody had heard that this was a really great band to see live and to experience live, and so we were all longing for, you know, a live record, and when it was announced we were really quite excited And I'm curious how you guys felt. But before we get into your feelings, let's take a look under the hood of this record. This one was recorded live at Kobo Arena in Detroit, michigan, november 23rd 1996. It was released May 24th 1997 for the long weekend. Produced by the tragically hip and Mark Freakin. It clocks in at 70 minutes and 31 seconds and it was released on MCA. All Music gave this a 2.5 out of 5. And here's what they had to say about this. The tragically hip, one of Canada's musical merry makers, are also praised for their raw, sweaty live performances. Frontman Gordon Downey is a real dynamo, lyrically and physically, and his bandmates only support the beautiful live chaos. With that aside, the hip treated fans with their first ever live album, live Between Us, recorded well. On tour in support of 1996's Trouble at the Henhouse, live Between Us documents one of the band's more ambitious evenings. Without any technical tweaking, a very loyal Detroit audience is captured at the sold out Kobo Arena and a very tight knit and fiery, tragically hip is in command. The unity between the hip and their fans depicts something heavy. Downey's random improvising and loose poetic ramblings spark the intro of Grace 2. It creeps along with Johnny Faye's electric percussion and already Live Between Us is a steady, creatively stripped and vibrant. The emotional rage fully, completely sets up the rest of the record, particularly the relaxed ballad ahead by a century Layered backing vocals and plucking acoustics depict the hip's signature sincerity and the sneaky rock snippets of David Bowie's China Girl And the Beach Boys Don't Worry Baby midway through New Orleans' sink and flow without hesitance. Most stunningly is his lyrical rant of Jane Sivarys' The Temple Near the End of the Taunting Nautical Disaster, which also includes a verse from the reaesthetics Bad Time to Be Poor. As a whole, the band is abrasive in a simplistic sense, making Live Between Us an intimate jam between the band members themselves and a shared moment with the fans. The tragically bad men have maintained their beloved status because of such grateful informality. What in the living fuck is a 2.5 out of 5? The only negative word in there is abrasive, and abrasive comes right to the end. It's such a pussy review, wow. 0:07:15 - Speaker 1It's a bitch review. It's like going out on the best date of your life or something and then just saying like, yeah, maybe I'll call you next week or whatever, or maybe I won't. I can't even think of something stupid and shitty to compare it to, because it's so fucking bullshit. Sorry, what a shit. the bed review that is Sorry. 0:07:42 - Speaker 5Well, i have a maybe, maybe, why So kind of the elephant in the room on this recording is the actual show is longer than what they put out for the album And we're missing all these. We're missing, yeah, we're missing all these songs. So if you, let's say, the writer, went to this show in Detroit and was so psyched about it And then a year or whatever, whatever it was, later bought the album and brought it home and realized it was three quarters of the songs and they don't even get the actual ending of the show on the record, and so you're kind of you're like you're playing if you got this on vinyl or CD, you're playing like the highlights of the show And as a very amateur taper and someone who absolutely loves live shows and kind of you know, on some of the bad weeks lives for them, you know, when I listened through this I was like okay, is this just the hits? Like what is this album Like? I really questioned what was going on with it. I absolutely loved it And I loved. You know I have all these comments about everything that I dig from it But at the same time I'm like God damn. So that's when I pursued the search of the whole recording, start to finish, because I mean I have socked away whole recordings of shows And this is not a whole recording. 0:09:11 - Speaker 3Yeah, it's interesting. It's interesting, I wonder. I was just going to say it's interesting. I wonder why they did it that way. What do you think, pete? That's what I was going to say. 0:09:21 - Speaker 1No, it's totally yeah, because here's a couple things Like I see what you're saying, but I'm also looking at this from 1996, number one, number two it's on MCA, which at the time MCA was a really large record company. Okay, so you know, you've got, you've got the record company's influence of. oh, i don't think this track should be on there, whatever They take it off. You know they wanted this to be a sellable record that they were going to put out number one. I'm not defending it, i'm just saying I'm just trying to get in the mind of the methodology of what, why these decisions were made. And on top of it, i think nowadays bands will put out a live record and it'll be like you know, because, for example, new Orleans is sinking. You know, nowadays that would be New Orleans is sinking. Parenthetical China girl slash, don't worry, they met me or something. You know they'll throw that shit in, whereas back in the day, when you had a packaged live record, that shit was a no. No, you know, i didn't see it a lot that I remember Either way. Dude, this fuck all music, dude. I think that's the narrative we need to stick with, because they don't know what the fuck is going on. 0:10:38 - Speaker 5It. Just this record blew me away. Yeah, I would say. I would just add that my my only thought behind their low review score is because they didn't get all the show, Maybe they went to it and they saw it and they wanted to hear it all again. Yeah, exactly, or maybe they didn't, i don't know, but it's just the review is written It was a bad way. 0:11:01 - Speaker 3Kindly like it's. so it's such a nice review, really, until the word abrasive comes out and then which is weird And then it ends with like a nice, like they're redeemed, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and then it's like 2.5. It's like this person is a hard grader man. That's all I'm going to say. 0:11:20 - Speaker 1But I don't, i don't buy that. Oh, i mean, i see what you're saying, tim, again about the record. You know. But look at, you know, a lot of live records aren't even a whole concert, let alone you're going to put a whole concert. So if a band plays for you know, three hours or plays a three hour set, like the Stones, and they put out a live record, they're not going to do that. Led Zeppelin's How the West is One great live record. It's probably. You know, if you look at the back and the liner notes, it's recorded in Madison Square Garden, it's recorded at the Long Beach Arena. It's recorded different places. It's not one concert. They kind of just took the best takes. 0:11:57 - Speaker 3I do like they used just the Kobo Hall performance because a lot of bands do that for live. They do like two or three nights and they record and they pick the best stuff. 0:12:08 - Speaker 5The actual album is about 83% of the show, so you you miss the whole. Encore There is some. There is some missing there The entire encore you missed. 0:12:17 - Speaker 3So what you do get the end of the record is the Weirothal, which is the last song they played. But whatever we missing, it goes Grace to fully completely springtime in Vienna. Trust my arm gift shop ahead by a century. The luxury 700 foot ceiling is not on there. 0:12:33 - Speaker 2Courage. 0:12:34 - Speaker 3That sucks, is courage on there. 0:12:36 - Speaker 5Daredevil is not. Daredevil is not Daredevil is not. 0:12:40 - Speaker 3Flamenco is not Scape is at hand for the traveling man is not, which is crazy because that's on the next record. So they were showcasing Wow, yeah, yeah, if anyone's got this. 0:12:52 - Speaker 5No, i'm thinking, don't wake, daddy. 0:12:55 - Speaker 3Yeah, please send an email to Tim at getting hip to the hipcom. He's a completist. I need it. Oh little bones man That would have been fucking rad. 0:13:06 - Speaker 5Yeah, ender with me locked in the trunk of a car would have been the ominous Ender. But then you got little bones, so new, the very end. I mean we got you another recording. You get 82, like I said, 83% of the whole entire show, which is killer. And you know, honestly, a positive there is it gives people access to the hip live who may own like one album, and then they pick up a CD with a bunch of live shit and they're like, oh man, why haven't we seen this band play yet? You know, so that could be part of it. It's a little bit of a teaser without an encore or a second encore. I mean I don't know, though That's all the same time. I've, i've recorded shows and I've sent friends just the encore, just kind of piss them off, but sometimes like from a recording. Sometimes for me, listening to the encore, like the last three, four songs, you're like fuck, yeah, that probably was an amazing show. I get it And you know this recording without hearing the, on course I pretty much get it too, but just specifically, i talk about the show. 0:14:10 - Speaker 3Yeah, well, this is what I want to. I want to sort of level off with the audience. You know how we're going to approach this Yeah. And you know, you came up with the idea of approaching it like it's a real concert, like let's give, give it a concert review. My curiosity starts to go from there. What do you look for in a live concert without referencing this record? What, what are? or, if you want to reference this record, what do you look for when you go to a show like that makes it a great show. 0:14:40 - Speaker 5Yeah, well, oftentimes it's the crowd. Man, if it's a rock and roll band, if it's a band with energy, you know there's. There's a electronic duo that we love, that we've seen play a handful of times. That really gets their crowd going like it. Just, oftentimes it's the crowd. You know, at the beginning of this album, as I listened to it, i thought, okay, probably not, because I didn't research it much. You know, i was excited to hear a live album But I thought, you know, it's probably not. The stadium sounds big, though definitely arena feeling and crowd sounds pretty hyped. They weren't. They weren't screaming like a bunch of fucking going crazy, drunk ass Canadians. They were hyped But it wasn't. To me it didn't feel like a home show. Well Tim, the ABV in the back blue is not that high Just well, sure, sure, sure, sure, Sure, sure, but you know, but when I did research it I was like, oh, i was like, oh, detroit, okay, detroit shows must have been really fun Because you know, you're in the US, you're in the USA. Whether or not is highly regarded in Detroit is like there is their home away from home. So the crowd for me was either way like hitting the mark that the crowd was pumped in the just right off the bat I had wondered about you know, because I'm nerdy that way like how it was recorded And I thought about the time and the era and what people were using to record stuff. So I did a little bit of research on that note, just to see, like what the heck or see if there are any notes about how they recorded this thing, because back then it was like dat recorders or radar recorders. I mean it was like the kind of the evolution beginning evolution of digital audio recording which people could then just pump out on the scene or mini discs around. 0:16:28 - Speaker 3At that point I forget when I had, i had a. 0:16:30 - Speaker 5Yeah that was, that was the yeah, those things were cool. Yeah, that was around the same time. You could yeah, you could plug those straight into a sound board and get like CD quality. So I was curious about that as a taper person, you know, just to hear how it went down, because it overall you know whether it was on my home sonosystem or my basement PSS premium sound system or on my my home headphones, my Bose headphones, like it sounds fucking good Like whoever. Whoever posted this did a great job. 0:17:06 - Speaker 3What did you think, pete, in terms of your rubric for measuring a live show? 0:17:13 - Speaker 1It's a it's a weird question because you know, and Tim comes from a place of recording a million shows in his history On me. I look, i gotta kind of look at it back. We gotta kind of look at this backwards because, number one, we worn out the show. You know, if we judge it by the crowd, i think, but by anybody's standards, you know, the show that Peter Frampton played at the Fillmore West for Frampton Comes Alive was was a banger on the show. But if you know anything about that record they dubbed in the audience of the crowd. Do you know? do you know that, right, tim? 0:17:47 - Speaker 5Boo. 0:17:47 - Speaker 1I say that Boo, i mean it's, it's, it's. the American Idol effect is of of making things seem like they're popular when they're not. 0:17:57 - Speaker 5Now I have a. It's the fucking laugh track, you know it's a laugh track. 0:18:02 - Speaker 1So I have a weird take on this. This record made me, gave me a weird take on this band as a whole that I'm really looking forward to show you guys. But just to your question, jd, before I get ahead of myself. I think the the show you can. You can hear how good the show was from the band and what the energy that the bands convey, what Gord Downey's saying and how he's interacting with the crowd, cause you never know with the crowd again. The Frampton record but based on what you're hearing from the band, it was a fucking rager. Yeah, whoever was at this show you know, kiss my ass, i wish I, i wish I was there, i mean, you weren't there. 0:18:49 - Speaker 3She was an email. JD at getting hip to the hipcom. 0:18:52 - Speaker 5Hey, jd, question for you. 0:18:53 - Speaker 3Call her Go ahead Yeah. 0:18:55 - Speaker 5Yeah, jd, you know. So after I did research this show a bit, i came upon the reason why it's named what it's named. Do you want to share that? And yeah, so it sounded like in the early days the hip had a sax player. 0:19:15 - Speaker 3David's. 0:19:15 - Speaker 5Manning, that's right, am I right? 0:19:17 - Speaker 3Yeah, talked about him in the first episode. 0:19:20 - Speaker 5So that that kind of rocks, yeah, yeah, I forgot all about that. I forgot all about that, obviously, and and I thought, oh my God, and I just I just kind of sat there and wondered about everything I've listened to and how there has been no sax player. And there could have been a sax player, you know, and there's, and it recalled to mind some bands that I love that have horn players that you know really feels like part of the soul of that band with this horn player. So can you imagine, like recordings up to this date, having this sax player? that's like you know, i don't know, would he have been the equivalent of I don't know the guy's name, the guy that plays um Phil or violin for Dave Matthews, you know, wouldn't have been this overwhelming presence, so that that first of all. 0:20:08 - Speaker 3First of all, dave Matthews, barf Barf. 0:20:12 - Speaker 5Oh, i know right, the best, the best story about Dave Matthews Segway is the story about his tour bus in Chicago. Do you guys know this story? 0:20:22 - Speaker 1Oh yeah, the the, yeah, the shit. 0:20:24 - Speaker 5Yeah, So he's he's. 0:20:25 - Speaker 1I thought you were going to say Clarence Clemens of uh, yeah, that's where I thought it was No, Yeah, Dave Matthews tour bus. 0:20:32 - Speaker 5You know they're whoever's on the bus, but they're driving in Chicago across an abridge and they're uh, they're black water tank, which is all the poo, poo and wee wee supposedly broke open and burst onto a bunch of tourists on a on a boat platform, boat going down the river on a scene. 0:20:50 - Speaker 3Oh my God. 0:20:51 - Speaker 5So Dave Matthews has actually shit on fans, so that's, that was pretty fun. Anyway, back to this. 0:21:00 - Speaker 3Hey, today's all about live music. 0:21:02 - Speaker 1Metaphorically and and sonically. 0:21:05 - Speaker 5I I last week I turned down the opportunity to co-host that Dave Matthews podcast. Um, so so this fellow uh, uh, uh, dave, dave is manning It was at a crossroads with staying in the band or not and was given to ultimate him by his girlfriend, who I wonder if he's even still with her doubt it. And, um, she, she noted that that the hip lives between us, to him, to Davis. So she was like you know, the band lives in between us in bed, the band is in between us. You got to pick, you got to pick one of us, pick the band or pick me And he's supposedly chose her, and this was spray painted on the wall of I don't remember some building I don't know in in whatever Queens Yeah, in Kingston, and, uh, you know when, it was lived between us. So I think the actual record is lived between us, but everybody calls it live between us because it's live. 0:22:06 - Speaker 3That's why I've all got it live between us. But yeah, i knew that, but I knew that story. But I still call it live between us. I don't yeah What man. if you've got to take on that Pete, do you? 0:22:15 - Speaker 1But isn't that a? isn't that a dick move, dude, like I mean? it's a I got to. How do you for the band in their current form to name it? 0:22:24 - Speaker 5that is like I think it's awesome. 0:22:28 - Speaker 1I think it's awesome too, but God. 0:22:29 - Speaker 5Here's the code It says. There, in an alley that now stands beside a tattoo parlor, he painted a huge mural featuring a weeping eye and a shooting star, which is hard to decipher. In the art He painted the hip live between us in large letters across the wall and an apparent reference to he and his lover. In the end, davis chose his girl, left the band and continues to be an active musician to this day. The mural stood until the summer of 2005, when it was painted over by local business owners. His artwork was used as the CD art, which is fucking hilarious and perfect for the hips 97 live release. The disc, in clever turn of phrase, was called live between us. 0:23:12 - Speaker 3That's very cool. 0:23:13 - Speaker 5Perfect. It's just perfect. I love it. That right there just made me love the whole thing. It was like great story, Great story. 0:23:21 - Speaker 3So let's start at the start. With the opener is Grace to a good opener. Hello. 0:23:55 - Speaker 2This is for the real statics. We're all richer for having seen them tonight. All right, i got a son, came up shocked with the lines. Today was the day that I was already behind Steal the drink. Our brothers and sisters, our young all-ter체 Note Uhl are here at the site. Come on, blir gladzis. I can hear a singing. I'm turned off from No, they don't know no more. That's why I'm here, for I kept them downtown, but I'm ready for you. I went well into Dona Nace and Brace to leave. I'm a little bit alone. I was, so I'm a little bit. I can't hear you. Can't you fucking hear that man? Can't you fucking hear that? Can't you hear what I heard? Look out, jesus Christ, big fuckin' bear. The secret rules of engagement Are hard to endorse When the appearance of comfort Meets the appearance of force, when I can guarantee They've been a knock on the door, i can't hear you. I'm turned off from here. I'm turned off from the door. That's why I'm here, for I kept them downtown, but I'm ready for you. I went to scale and it's my strength. Yes to you. I didn't give a fuck. Where the hell did you get an inch? I never fought for a thing. I never fought for anything. I got a palace wage gone to do. I'm like so many of you. I see around me Nothing to live or die for, no limits in tune. Help, help, no, no. I was growing up in town. I was growing up in town And I was gonna pick up my friends And I know you'll come to some kind of dead end. Oh, but I can swear there's a bear. I can swear there's a place where all is A bit to be manned And you can never be a piece of cake. And then there's everyone Around you smiling and everyone Around you styling. You got nothing to worry about. And then you got nothing to worry about. You got nothing to worry about. You got nothing to worry about. 0:29:31 - Speaker 1So fucking Lulie, absolutely, i mean. 0:29:34 - Speaker 5Perfect. 0:29:35 - Speaker 1It's just the way they come into it. I pictured like I don't know if they had played arenas this big before I know they toured. They sounded so tight, they couldn't fuck up if they tried, you know. And this band just sounded so good. Yeah, what was this? How far was this show off of their SNL release? SNL appearance. 0:30:12 - Speaker 3Oh well, snl was March of 95 and this was November of 96. 0:30:22 - Speaker 1Yeah, i mean, they knew then that this was a banger of a tune. But just What a way to ease in, to get everybody to get the water warm in the bathtub. Man. 0:30:36 - Speaker 3Did you dip your toes in the bath there, timmy? 0:30:40 - Speaker 5I did, i did, and it's good. The jets came on right away, so in the tub. So, yeah, i loved his phrase. Sun came up and shot through the blinds. Today was a day And I was already behind. You know, like I First of all, great line, great, just random thing. And it was also like I don't know. I love that phrase Cause to me it was like Sun came up and shot through the blinds. Today was a day And I was already behind. You know, and this is this to me, is a line that says it's kind of okay, you know, it's okay to be behind. You know, i don't know, i just you could read this line in so many ways. You can read it as like You're fucked, or you can read it as fuck it, and I love that about it. So, you know, there's there's just the grace to as a starter. You know, the first time I heard it as a starter live was that 99, woodstock, woodstock, yeah, yeah, yeah. And the first time I heard that was like okay, this is what gets the crowd going, this is, this is the shot in the arm energizer, and you know this, this is it for for this show as well. And to try, i love he has. Gord has one of his now iconic Woo. Yes, this is like, yes, the crowd is psyched, we're psyched. You know, that's to me going back to the crowd, kind of making the show. There you go, he screams. He's got like he does this droll, this guttural scream. You know, come from downtown. You know it's just, i just love it. I love it yeah, i love it when singers kind of stray and do something a little bit different Than the recordings and just get fucking into it, and that's that's how this started, for sure. 0:32:35 - Speaker 3And it carries on into a song that I don't recall how you felt about it on the fully, completely record, but to me this live version is so like, almost like psychedelic-y and like maybe it's because I've been listening to it high, i don't know but there's something really awesome about the live version It just unlocks live. I'm curious if you agree about certain songs, in this case, fully, completely Getting unlocked in a live version. 0:33:17 - Speaker 1The perfect word you use is unlocked. I couldn't think of a better word to use, because I don't know if they make them anymore. They used to be these 12-cylinder Mercedes-Benz two-door coupes. Do you remember those, Timmy run around. 0:33:35 - Speaker 5Yeah, yeah, they came with like an extra, extra gas tax on the They're ridiculous. 0:33:40 - Speaker 1Who needs this 12-cylinder? 0:33:46 - Speaker 5It was like a luxury gas tax in California that was added. 0:33:49 - Speaker 1That's how I feel about this song. 0:33:52 - Speaker 5And. 0:33:52 - Speaker 1I actually remember, because I remember thinking about it too. Jd, this was a song that I didn't say. I didn't like it but it wasn't my favorite on the record. I remember specifically because it was the title track And this was like again, a nice Mercedes, i would say a Ferrari, but whatever, whatever, your nice car is that you like sitting in your driveway and being like that's really cool, that's really pretty to look at. Okay, then you get in your fucking Honda, your fucking shitty beater, and you drive to work, but the live record gives you the keys to open it up and to fucking take it for a spin And it was, oh my God, yeah, exactly Like I really enjoyed this tune. It made me like and respect this tune for what it is And yeah, i mean think of all the reasons why. But again, you know I'll say that for a couple of other tunes. But I loved it, kim. What? 0:34:52 - Speaker 5do you think, man, i related to it quite a bit. You know I loved his singing, ranting poetry, whatever. At the beginning He's talking about being in love with the old rule being raised by TV. I mean, that's me, you know, that's my childhood. But I will add the end of this, which I couldn't find any reference on. Maybe someone else can find it. But towards the end of this I think is the first time he starts singing lyrics from other bands at the show And I didn't find this noted. So he, towards the end, he starts singing. Please take me there. He sings there's a light that never goes out. These are lyrics from the fucking Smiths from the 80s And I have a feeling, you know, i'd really just wish I could know what the band was listening to from early through later, like what they were really jiving with. You know what they listened to on the bus and what their influences were. If they were carrying around CD player, fucking Walkman, whatever. You know what they were jamming to cause. There's more see early, more see lyrics here. I might be wrong, It might just be a coincidence, but when I heard that the first time I was like fuck. 0:36:12 - Speaker 1Well, we know what Tim was listening to, please. 0:36:16 - Speaker 5One of my first. Honestly, that's one of my. My second tape was the Smiths Queen is Dead. 0:36:22 - Speaker 1Same here. 0:36:24 - Speaker 5That was it. So, yeah, i felt like this took it bigger. I hear the song in this order at this show. It took it a level bigger and louder and took it a level more aggressive. It was like Pete, you know the V12, you drive your shitty Honda, but you get in a car. it's a V12. It's like a jet boat, you know. and this I felt, i felt fully, completely, really dug in and kept us accelerating. I love your old ways, i love your old world ways is what he sings towards the end And I just that's so romantic to me. That's like pulling on my heartstrings because, you know, I'm a Gen Xer. There's so many times in my life where I want to throw my iPhone across a room. Yeah. 0:37:11 - Speaker 1Yeah, the torque it gave us, i thought one of the. I thought the crazy part about springtime in Vienna was and if I remember correctly, he introduces it And I don't know if the crowd goes nuts for it. But I'm just thinking to myself like the minute this song starts. I'd fucking lose all my shit if I'm in the car. 0:37:35 - Speaker 5Yeah, yeah, losing my shit. 0:37:37 - Speaker 1And the fact that he introduces it is almost like, kind of like, is he doing it because it's a light record? And there's maybe people that are gonna buy this record and not be looking at the back of the CD when they when it's on, i mean I don't know because, whatever, but this song, i mean just when it goes on the fucking chorus, it's just it's madness too. 0:38:02 - Speaker 5It's Yeah, you love this song. 0:38:04 - Speaker 1You hate to be loved, right? Yeah, i love this song and I just feel like if I I can hear the band having so much fun playing this song, you can hear it. 0:38:17 - Speaker 5Yeah, you can, you can. You can hear it a lot of times throughout this whole performance. Yeah, you can hear the amount of fun, i think, through the bass that's happening. You know there's some really the bass guitar so many times to me is like fuck, these guys were into it, you know. And springtime in Vienna, just like that. I felt like that was the point in the show, where you're like either chugging down your second beer or you're lighting up another spliff or whatever. Like this is like serious momentum. twist my arm, which was next, you know That to me felt I don't know that's that to me for this position of this show. This is like where you were dancing, Like this is super fun, like it felt danceable. You know, it's like I'm not standing still at this show. That was my comment for that one. 0:39:14 - Speaker 1I got some weird takes, i mean and these aren't necessarily related to this particular songs And the first thing I want to say is that I feel like like when I was young, jd, my dad used to tell me when I was playing in a band, you need to play with dynamics, right. And when you're young and you're just fucking want to turn your amp up louder than the guy next to you, you don't know what the fuck dynamics are. And it's ironically. You know, i don't have to give away my age, but I'm up there And I still I'm trying to play with people who don't know what the fuck dynamics are. Some people get it, some people never get it. It's just the ability to listen to one another, to play to the band, not to just play your instrument right, and this you can just tell. This band is weathered by the road. They have amazing dynamics to start songs like well, springtime in Vienna gift shop, especially a head by a century which builds. So just do this, do what is. Isn't it the most streamed song of the band period? Yeah, yeah. 0:40:31 - Speaker 5Head by a century. 0:40:32 - Speaker 1Yeah, head by a century, which is funny because race two on this record has more streams on this live record than head by a century. 0:40:45 - Speaker 3Oh really. 0:40:46 - Speaker 1Yeah. 0:40:48 - Speaker 3Oh wow, well, maybe it's not that, i'm not sure What. We should look that up, you know. 0:40:55 - Speaker 1You know me, though, but yeah, I think they know what they're doing on stage clearly. 0:41:03 - Speaker 5Yeah, you don't want a drummer or a guitarist or a fucking keyboardist. I'll talk a little, reference the doors there for two seconds. You don't want another musician in your band getting in the way. You know, like I actually, who is it, i'll recall. But anyways, i heard someone once say yeah, i just can't have a drummer who gets in the way. You know, you don't want somebody just cranking themselves too often And I think that's kind of what you're saying. Pete, this show, you know it. just it gets this momentum going to where you might all of a sudden realize oh shit, we're already in song five or this is already the sixth song. Like, i feel like their shows have this build up. I would assume now, after hearing this one, that their shows kind of have this build up and then they start carrying people. you know, before you, yeah, before you realize it, you're like, oh, my God, you know, it's probably halfway over or something, i don't know. It's like a century when it, yeah by century, when it started on this recording, that kind of felt like a mile marker with Gordon, his goofy start, when he's doing his one liners and making sense and not making sense at all, like that. that was kind of like the check in to to like yeah, catharsis one Yeah. That all about right, right. That to me was like let's see how into it the crowd is. You know, maybe we'll make somebody fall over with these statements, i don't know. But that, but there's a moment in a head by a century on this recording that I've kind of been waiting for to hear these guys live, do And that's like a right around the three minute marker. So they just start riffing a little bit more. They dig, they dig a little bit deeper. They reached that, you know, five fifth speed of the V12 Mercedes and they're finally on the stretch of freeway where they can let it go a little bit. And that's that's what happens with with this song. I've been waiting, waiting to hear that. So that was, that was good, that was good for me. 0:43:10 - Speaker 3Gift shop I wanted to ask you guys about, because gift shop to me feels like grace two, in the sense that it's like an opener Like. It feels like an opener to me. So I'm just curious about where it gets put. Like you've you've talked about this car metaphor you know you get grace two to open the show, then fully, completely, which sort of like you know, gets you, gets you sort of high, and then springtime in Vienna to get you jumping up and down And then twist my arm is like an old classic at this point. So you're like wow, like, like Tim said, you're dancing, And then gift shop sort of resets everything. 0:43:52 - Speaker 2You know what I mean. The rest of the world becomes a gift shop. So you're like wow, like Tim said, you're dancing. You're like wow, like Tim said you're dancing. You're like wow, like Tim said, you're dancing. You're like wow, like Tim said you're dancing. You're like wow, like Tim said, you're dancing. I don't know what to believe. Sometimes I even forget. And if it's a lie, a terrorist may be saying A beautiful love, a dangerous time, we get to feel a smile. I'm high up above. I'm high up above. I'm high up above. I'm high up above. I'm high up above. I'm high up above. I'm high up above. I don't know what to believe. 0:47:43 - Speaker 5I wish I knew what to believe. I knew what to believe. Close the window. You'll hear the sound of death. Run, run, run, run run. 0:48:38 - Speaker 1I feel like gift shops an opener too. Absolutely. If you want to use the car analogy, that's cool, but if we're powering a big amplifier with a car battery, it's like it's got some juice, it's got some sound. It's really pushing. You're waking up the neighbors and you hook up a second car battery. Now all the tubes are really lit up. Gift shops. It's just like Grace II and that it's another opener. It's the nitrous oxide on the engine. It just puts the show forward even faster and harder. 0:49:28 - Speaker 5I agree with that. I think it's not my favorite song simply because it's. I feel like it's. I don't know we're up to bat against a pitcher. You know you're going to get it on. It's an easy one, the chorus is easy, it's sing-alongable. I think gift shop could be an opener of the show, but I feel like it fits here well, because it's like dude, we've had the basses loaded twice. We're going to have the basses loaded twice. Let's just fucking keep bringing them in. And that's gift shop for me for sure. 0:50:02 - Speaker 3A lot of the baseball. 0:50:04 - Speaker 5Yeah, that was for you, buddy. 0:50:06 - Speaker 3Basses loaded twice. So the basses were loaded with Grace II, fully completed in springtime in Canada, and then gift shop ahead by a century and the luxury which is. This is a cool thing. If you're exploring Hiptim, you to Hiptim and you want to explore, there's a website called HIPBASE H-I-P-B-A-S-Ecom And it's got like every lot. It's like setlistfm, except for it. It's got super detailed statistics Like so, for example, the luxury this was only the 19th time that it played the luxury live. That's interesting. Yeah, it's like it's an older song at this point, but they've only played it 19 times. They only ended up playing it 65 times in total in their career. 0:51:01 - Speaker 1I feel like it's a good. It brings it down a little bit. It it, it. It mellows it out. You know, i mean being as that ahead by a century was such a popular song, like the crowd was going I mean they were going to eat shit right. When that song started, as it was This kind of like you know, take some away from the edge for a little bit. It's a really cool song, super cool bass groove. I love that. Yeah, one thing that really showcases Tim Is that on your guys' end, That's on my end. 0:51:38 - Speaker 3I think, yeah, that's JD, i come from downtown. 0:51:42 - Speaker 1One thing that Tim mentioned about drummer not getting in your way. It's crazy Again because, like my thoughts on this record are more broad and as opposed to individual songs, but I felt like like Gord Downey for the longest time and listening to the records and listening to it at this point has been the draw, and not in a bad way, but I'm saying it in the context of what Tim said the guy who's in everybody's way And I don't mean that in a bad way because he's such a fucking talent, absolutely And this was the first time where I was actually and I feel kind of like a fucking douchebag, because when it comes to the whole entire band I mean the entire band you really hear like whoa, these motherfuckers are good musicians, these guys are Yeah. And that's really hard to come through on a record because you don't know when what's recorded, how it's cut together. 0:52:42 - Speaker 5Yep. 0:52:42 - Speaker 1All that. When you hear it live you're like, okay, this is the way it sounded there And everybody sounds so good. So it's, you don't hear and I don't mean that again at this respect of Gord Downey getting in anybody's way, but like he's so good It's sort of hard to not Have that guy overshadowed. Yeah, yeah, the band, but live you don't get that vibe at all. On the records I sort of do. The records are really smooth, this far sort of, but on the fucking live performance holy shit. 0:53:16 - Speaker 3Yeah, and that's. It's funny because that was one of the questions I literally just wrote down. I was going to ask you guys if the band, if you feel differently about the band now that you've heard them play live, and you just answered that exact question, do you get what I'm saying now about being sort of an improv troupe? 0:53:35 - Speaker 5Yes. 0:53:36 - Speaker 3Because Gord will sort of carry on and do his own thing and they still have to end a song And they don't know if he's like how far he's going. Or sometimes they'll just end a song and go into, go right into something else And he's still sort of like finishing a thought or explaining an idea or whatever. 0:53:59 - Speaker 1The musicians clearly all listen to each other enough to know when to where things are going, You know. 0:54:07 - Speaker 3Yeah, And they're just as in charge as he is in a sense. 0:54:12 - Speaker 5I have to wonder what that would have been like if Davis was playing sax and all this, you know might not have been. It would have been different. Could you imagine just having a horn blowing in here and there? Yeah, like I said, having horns and bands and having a fit. but oh it may have been, I don't know I think like in excess. 0:54:34 - Speaker 3You know, they were good with the sax, yeah, but yeah, it would have been different for sure. 0:54:38 - Speaker 5Last night we were listening to this band that I loved, loved, from Boston, called Morphine. If anyone hasn't listened to Morphine, you got to check them out. They're no longer, but they were a three piece and saxophone, bass player and drummer, and that was it. It's one of the perfect examples of a unique rock and roll band where saxophone fits in and leads and doesn't take over, because it was such a unique trifecta of you know of a band. But you know, i just I think where was I going to go with this? I think, yeah, i think it would have been so different. I just circled back to the luxury. I commented on this before. It's noted on the internet, of course, but I would love, jd, for you to to play the end, maybe, of the luxury of this one and then blend in, come as you are from Nirvana, cause dude, it's the same. I mean they, they, the band was listening to Nirvana. It's just the same guitar, the same bass. It's pretty fucking cool, and I've noticed that the first time I listened to the luxury, and it's completely evident in here as well. 0:55:57 - Speaker 3But the luxury came out in 91. How much art came out in 92? 0:56:03 - Speaker 5Well, they heard it, i swear. I mean it's timing or not? 0:56:09 - Speaker 3Or Nirvana heard it. 0:56:11 - Speaker 5Yeah, nirvana heard it, who knows? 0:56:12 - Speaker 1Yeah. 0:56:13 - Speaker 5But anyways, courage, So courage. I love courage. It couldn't come at a worse time. 0:56:47 - Speaker 2Where something more familiar, quickly something familiar. Can't change my words, it doesn't matter. Sleep, watch so fast, asleep in a motel that has a lay of hope And piss on out of your background And piss on three eyes around your face. Can't change my words, it doesn't matter. Can't change your words, it doesn't matter. Can't remember, it doesn't matter. Can't change my words. Time. It's pretty snowy in here. Snow is so merciless for old country. There's no sample explanation for anything important Any of us do and yet a human tragedies, obsession or necessity of living with the consequences of depression and depression. Can't change my words, it doesn't matter. Can't change your words, it doesn't matter. Can't change my words, it doesn't matter. Can't change my words. Can't change my words. Can't change my words. I'm a child of the church, god. Snow is so merciless for old country. There's a spite of everything that's happening. It's a spite of love. Can't change my words, don't you worry, i'm a child of the church, god. I'm a child of the church, god. Snow is so merciless for old country. 1:00:57 - Speaker 5Can't change my words. Can't change my words. I don't know. There's something about this song that it's positive. It's. You know, it's something I can't turn off when I hear it, Like I got to go through the whole song. I got to sing the chorus One of the coolest parts. The bridge, Yeah, yeah, it's good. One of the coolest parts of this live recording for me, of this song, Courage, is you can hear the crowd singing a little bit Like Gord stops. When Gord stops singing, the crowd carries the lyrics for him. There's a brief moment of that, which I just adore when bands do that, when the crowd is so into it that they just stop singing. But I have the question. I don't know, This is a question. Towards the end of this he starts to talk about Montreal and the snow and poor old Montreal, You know, and I guess that's a reveal on a song in the future about Montreal or something. 1:02:15 - Speaker 3Is that true? Actually, a song from the past. 1:02:18 - Speaker 5Oh, oh, oh oh. 1:02:20 - Speaker 3It was a song that was written for Road Apples. Oh, that's right. It never came to light until much later on, but they always played it. They always sort of kept it in the back pocket and would pull it out and play it occasionally, and there's a live recording of it that just came out in a box set. That is a really good live recording. I also have the demo. I have the demo from Road Apples Ooh, okay, cool, cool, cool, cool. So, yeah, it's a great song and it's fucking ooh, it's a tough one. It's about the young man who shot and murdered 14 young women at a school in Montreal, and it happened in late 80s and it's recognized annually as a result. 1:03:10 - Speaker 5Oh, yeah, So I just pulled that up. It's the massacre at Montreal's Polytechnic School, which was fueled by misogyny, horrifying memory of a bygone era. Damn Fuck. 1:03:27 - Speaker 3Yeah, so the song Montreal is about that. 1:03:33 - Speaker 5Got it. There's our heavy sort of segue in there to get us to New Orleans and Sinking. So New Orleans and Sinking for me. I don't know about you, pete, but man, this was fun. On this recording This is like crowd goes berserk. The guitar has this big start, the drums are big. It feels like we've reached top speed perhaps of the show. It oddly slows down about. There's a I don't know if you caught this, pete there's this tempo, little chug, slug, like it slowed down for just a little bit there. Like it really caught my attention that the band kind of went a tiny bit out of sync and I think that was with the drums. But man, this one I think the crowd was just, for lack of a better term banging their heads and just going along and, you know, felt so awesome The fucking David Bowie references at the end talking about where's my little China girl, all that you know that was China girl was like forever stethled to my brain because of MTV as a youngster. You know that was just such a memorable video for me Made me an instant David Bowie fan. It's just I just. New Orleans and Sinking. It might have been, might have been one of my. We're gonna get into it one of my top songs here. 1:05:25 - Speaker 2Silly way down this sidewalk in jail. My memory is muddy. What's this riff that I'm in? You gonna need to sink it, man. And I don't wanna say that I'm a child, i'm a throne. I'm going home, can't do this now. I'm a party, he said. You know yourself. Shut your big mouth. Gotta do what you feel is real. Got no pictures false gods. Got no shivers in these. My fingers she won't open when I'm thinking about those. Yeah, i'm a child, i'm a throne. I'm going home, can't do this now. I'm a party, he said. You know yourself. Shut your big mouth. Gotta do what you feel is real. I'm a child, i'm a throne. I'm going home, can't do this now. I'm a party, he said. You know yourself. Shut your big mouth. Gotta do what you feel is real With my ginocent girl. Wake up in the morning. Where's my ginocent girl? She's too tired, she's too small. Baby, just shut your mouth, she says. She says, yeah, don't worry, baby, everything will turn out alright. There's a light bulb hanging on a wire, sucking up the sun doesn't stoop to fire. Taking out the highlights of the scenery, saw some little clouds and looked a little like this In the river, my feet back up on the banks looked up to the Lord above, said hey, hey, hey, banks. Sometimes I feel so good I've got to scream. He says Georgie, baby, i know exactly what's the change He says. He says I swear to God. He says hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey. My memory is funny. What's his clever man of man? he won't need to sink in that, i don't want to sell Trout. 1:10:36 - Speaker 3Trout, trout, trout. 1:11:31 - Speaker 1Trout, trout, trout. 1:12:21 - Speaker 3Trout, trout, trout. 1:12:46 - Speaker 1Trout Trout. 1:13:00 - Speaker 5Trout, trout, trout, trout, trout, trout, trout, trout. 1:14:13 - Speaker 3Trout, trout, trout, trout, trout, trout, trout, trout. 1:15:25 - Speaker 5Trout Trout, trout Trout. 1:16:12 - Speaker 3Trout Trout. 1:16:21 - Speaker 1Trout Trout, trout Trout. 1:16:56 - Speaker 3Trout Trout. 1:17:13 - Speaker 4Trout Trout. Questions or concerns, email us at JD at GettingHipToTheHipcom. We'd love to hear from you. 1:18:16 - Speaker 3Hey, it's JD here. 1:18:18 - Speaker 5Hey, it's Tim. 1:18:19 - Speaker 3And Pete Fellows, i'm really excited that you're flying to Toronto on Friday, september 1st for our big party GettingHipToTheHip an evening for the Downey Wain Jack fund. We just need to sell some tickets. How are we going to do that? 1:18:33 - Speaker 5Go to our website GettingHipToTheHipcom and you'll find a link to get tickets to our event at the rec room in Toronto. 1:18:40 - Speaker 1Early burn tickets are 35 bucks. If you go to GettingHipToTheHipcom and click on the bonus fee, you get 10% off, which means tickets are 31.50 right now. If you were to join the bonus fee and buy tickets, you'd literally have to be stupid not to do that. Definitely join us on September 1st. I'll be at the bar putting out the vibe JD. where are you going to be at? 1:19:00 - Speaker 3I'm going to be watching 50 Mission perform some tragically hip songs and I'm really excited for you guys to see them. 1:19:06 - Speaker 5Yeah, and we have a silent auction which we've garnered some great prizes so far. It's amazing what people are donating. Some hip fans are really coming forward with some great donations And again, all proceeds are going to the Downey Wain Jack fund. 1:19:18 - Speaker 3And the Long Slice beer will be flowing because Long Slice is stepped up and they are our title sponsor for the event. How cool is that. 1:19:27 - Speaker 1I cannot wait to drink some delicious beer and also watch the comedy of Pete and I too, because that guy is a side splitter, that's for sure. September 1st, live Toronto, Be there, B-square, gettinghiptothehipcom, Click on the bonus feed at 10% off the tickets and we'll see you there. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/gettinghiptothehip/exclusive-contentAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

  Tim O'Brien along with his wife Becki, have created a unique vitamin, supplement and nutrition store that is more about helping people than it is about margins and commissions. As Tim says" Souls before sales!"   It was a pleasure sitting down with Tim to learn more about The Healthy Place and what products and services they have to offer.   After Tim educated me, I'm definitely going to lean on him and his team in the future, to help me make better and more educated decisions when it comes to my health.   I hope you enjoy this episode and you walk away with at least one snippet that either helps you in your entrepreneurial journey or with you health in general.   For 30% off, please use our affiliate link as it helps us to generate a little income to produce this podcast...thx so much!   https://findyourhealthyplace.com/?rfsn=5901087.08b0f6   Thanks for listening!   Joe   Tim O'Brien Founder - The Healthy Place Website: https://findyourhealthyplace.com/ Website: https://livelyvitaminco.com/ Website: https://wildtheory.com/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/applewellness/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thehealthyplaceTHP YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYQVVKB58mGd_YgxAL0LMGA/videos LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/apple-wellness-the-healthy-place/about/ Email: tim@findyourhealthyplace.com Podcast Music By: Andy Galore, Album: "Out and About", Song: "Chicken & Scotch" 2014 Andy's Links: http://andygalore.com/ https://www.facebook.com/andygalorebass If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. For show notes and past guests, please visit: https://joecostelloglobal.libsyn.com Subscribe, Rate & Review: I would love if you could subscribe to the podcast and leave an honest rating & review. This will encourage other people to listen and allow us to grow as a community. The bigger we get as a community, the bigger the impact we can have on the world. Sign up for Joe's email newsletter at: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#signup For transcripts of episodes, go to: https://joecostelloglobal.lybsyn.com Follow Joe: https://linktr.ee/joecostello Transcript Tim: My guest today is Tim O'Brien, the founder of The Healthy Place, an e-commerce store for healthy products. They also have for brick and mortar locations, one in Madison, Wisconsin, one in Fitchburg, Wisconsin, one in Middleton, Wisconsin, and one in Sun Prairie, Wisconsin. Tim's passion is health and wellness, and he has spent the last decade sharing his passion with the world on a personal side. He is married to Becky and together they have three children. In this conversation with Tim, I expressed how much health and wellness is important to myself and how convoluted the marketplace is and very difficult to trust who you buy from and which products you buy. I was excited to have Tim on the show so that I could learn more about the difference in what the healthy place offers over buying products at other places like GNC, Walgreens, the vitamin shop and obviously Amazon.com. So sit back and listen to the education that we get from Tim on how to buy better and healthier products in the health and wellness space. Joe: Hey, Tim, welcome to the show. Tim: Hey, hey, how you doing, buddy? Joe: I'm doing great, man, happy, what is it? Wednesday, I lost track, I just got Tim: Yeah, Joe: Back into Tim: It's Joe: Town. Tim: Hump hump day of the week, man, and Joe: Beautiful. Tim: I'm doing this to say thank you for giving me a chance to be on your show. Man, this is cool. Joe: Yeah, no, that's my pleasure, as as I mentioned before, we actually started this that I have, you know, I know that literally health is everything. Like you can have everything in the world that you ever, ever wanted. And without your health, it's just, you know, it's it's unfortunate because I know people go through things that had nothing to do with them not being healthy. They just got delivered a bad hand, Tim: Yahav. Joe: You know, so that's a different story. But those of us Tim: Jerome. Joe: That can make sure we stay healthy, there are things that we can do. But before we get into all of that, and as a lot of my listeners for the podcast and the viewers of a YouTube channel, now, I'd like to get the back story because a lot of the people who listen to the show are my hope is that these entrepreneurial spirits that are trying to figure out what they want to do are there in the midst of doing it. And they they need ideas from people that are being successful doing it. So I would like to go back as far as you're willing to go back to allow myself and the viewers to understand how you got into what you're doing today. What Tim: I love Joe: For? Tim: To share that. Yeah. Joe: Yeah, like what triggered the fact that you're now in this world of, you know, Tim: Supplements, Joe: The health world Tim: Natural Joe: And. Tim: Alternatives, Joe: Yeah, Tim: Yeah. Joe: Yeah, yeah. So I'd love to hear that and then we'll get in, Tim: I'd love to. It's Joe: Ok. Tim: A cool story, I kind of like telling it because it's just cool to see how things can work together to sort of bring you to the place that you're at. And it's sort of confirmation in some different ways. So I love to share it, man. I'd be happy to do so when my when I was like five or six years old, my mom fought through thyroid cancer. And I remember her like going through the chemo radiation and losing the hair, like seeing her at the hospital. I have four siblings, so just a lot of fear in the home, worried about mom. And then I remember this time where she came home and she was sort of like excited and sort of like filled with a little bit of hope because she had gone into this health food store in a little town called Muskego, Wisconsin, just this tiny little town that had a health food store. And she talked to this guy named John for like an hour and a half. And John shared with her all these natural alternatives that had some good science and some good reason to believe that it could help her in her process recovery, treatment of the thyroid cancer. And so she would like go in there like once a week, whether it was a refill for some supplements or whether it was some more education, because there was a lot of literature that this guy handed out as well, like books that he gave her. Tim: And I would go with her. And through this whole process, she she was benefited quite a bit from these natural alternatives that helped her and her recovery process. So I remember hearing about that as a little guy. And through that process, she got a job as a manager at this health food store. And she was there all the time, 40, 50 hours a week kind of thing. And us kids were home schooled. So we would go with mom often sitting in this back room of this health food store, doing our math problems, doing our schoolwork. And I watched over the years these testimonies produced of people coming in with chronic pain, depression, sleep issues, other folks that battled cancer, that my mom held their hand through the process, educating them. And so that was like my whole upbringing. And it really got into my DNA that there is natural alternatives out there that work and the general population just doesn't know about them, because the way our medical system set up pharmaceutical medications, you know, we have some of the best doctors in the world. And, you know, you go to them, you get a prescription, you don't Joe: Mm Tim: Necessarily Joe: Hmm. Tim: Get a natural alternative recommendation. So I got a bit passionate about that in my late teen years. So I got a job at a GNC franchise and worked for the owner who invited me to move out to Madison, Wisconsin, to manage some of his GNC stores after a little while. So I was like, man, OK, my boss thinks I'm good at this. I really enjoy helping people, encouraging people. I just happen to like like people in general. So it was it was sort of a fit. Like I got this passion for this natural alternative thing. I feel like I'm helping people. I'm impacting the world. I want to make a difference. And I was managing these GNC franchises in Madison, Wisconsin. Well, there was a corporate takeover, dude, in twenty seven where everybody lost their jobs, like corporate took over these six franchises that my boss owned. And it was like, OMG, like, what am I going to do now? And so I determined, you know, hey, I want to do something. And that's natural alternative space. I have always been sort of passionate about business in general. I had like three paper routes when I was 11 and I hired my sisters for a quarter a day. I was making bank Joe: Right. Tim: And I was so I tried a network marketing business for a little while that was suppliments and that was brutal. Multi-level marketing can be really hard. And I was like, OK, I don't want to go that route. Maybe I should open my own health food store. And at that time I had just met dating, married Becky, my wife. So we're prayerfully like thinking through this. Should we do this, put the house on the line, open up our own health food store and risk everything. And we decided to take the plunge. So our first brick and mortar store, 2010, was in a town called Fitchburg, Wisconsin, which is right outside of Madison, Wisconsin. And then twenty fifteen, it was store number two in the Madison area and then twenty nineteen with stores three and four. So that was going well. We then moved towards ecommerce where like, hey, if we're making an impact and a difference here locally, which is really exciting, we really enjoy it together. We work as a team like let's let's hit the nation. That sounds fun. And so we started to see a little bit of success there, especially ones covid hit of last year because our in-store traffic took a hit. So our pivot as a company, like a lot of smart companies, was, let's focus on e-commerce. And so that really helped us talk about a blessing in disguise, really helped Joe: Mm hmm. Tim: Us figure out the e-commerce space a little bit. So really exciting. In December, January of this last year, we got our little warehouse. So now we have a warehouse in Madison and we're shipping packages out all over the United States. And that's the story. And the mission is about impacting, empowering and educating as many people as we can to just like, learn, grow and create a lifelong foundation of health and wellness. It's like a fanning a flame. You know, somebody already just has a little spark. You know, they're putting the cigarette out outside my store, throwing the McDonald's bag in the trash and like, I need something for my chronic pain all the way up to the health enthusiasts. And no matter what, to me, it's so encouraging to just fan the flame of someone's health and wellness. Because you said it earlier, life is a gift and people need to remember that. Joe: Yeah, and so have you always, based on the background of sitting in that store with your mother and seeing what the proper nutrition and supplements and things like that did for her? Did you always pretty much lead a healthy lifestyle? Tim: Funny is Joe: Don't Tim: No. Joe: Tell me you're a fast food junkie. Tim: No, I wasn't. Yeah, I was, and I always felt very bad if I was going through that fast food line, but my diet really didn't really take a huge impact until I married Becky. So for whatever reason, I would I knew a lot about supplements, really passionate about natural alternatives. But I was I was not the guy who is eating ultra clean, raw, organic, clean. I was like, OK, I'm going to eat a basic diet cleaner than most know what kind of excuses that. And then I'd lean on supplements for nutrition. And so when I met Vecchi, this is two thousand eight, she's like, wow, this doesn't even make sense. Like you can't go eat at pizza, frozen pizza, you know, and then go take your supplements. And so she really convicted me. And it's been a pretty cool team because that's always been her passion is very clean eating. And she didn't understand or know about the supplement natural alternative thing. And my passion has always been for my mom's story of natural alternatives and supplements can change a life. And so then getting married and working together as a team to educate Madison and our social media platforms and on YouTube, it's like there has to be a marriage between nutritional deficiencies, making sure we don't have them eating well, eating clean exercise. So we should work together. And I've improved since meeting, Becky. Joe: Wow, so are you actually telling me that she was already before you guys even met, she was interested in this sort of thing or she was she was Tim: Yeah. Joe: A healthy, clean eating person. Tim: Yes, she was Joe: Wow. Tim: A health enthusiast, yeah, I mean, just health, and that's part of what drew me to her is like, man, this girl's got discipline, like extreme self-control. For me, that's been an area of struggle, just like in general, like discipline waking up early. I'm the guy that would, before I met Becky, like stay up till one and then sleep till nine till I had to quit, get to work. And, you know, he's like, man, we got some work to do. But, yeah, she sure inspired me and a few of those areas. Joe: Ok, so without prying too deeply then, because now you're really piqued, my interest is the fact that you guys are lying so well. How did you meet? Tim: Yeah, so we there was like a young adults meeting through it, through church called Metro Believers Church in Madison, Wisconsin, you know, I'm a Christian, she's a Christian, and in my early twenties, it was like, hey, I really enjoyed finding people like minded. And I think in the back of my mind, I'm like, I'm searching for a life, you know? So I would go to a couple of these different churches, young adult ministry meetings, whatever, 20 something groups. And we just started hanging out. So it was like a group of like six or seven of us. And I was about six months in. I pulled her aside one day after church and said, I still laugh at what I said. I said, Hey, Becky, I've taken a shining to you and I'd like to continue on to marriage. And she's like, oh my gosh. Like, OK, I'm kind of like you, too. It was weird way to ask, but OK. Joe: It's also that's Tim: Yeah, Joe: Old school, Tim: I don't do it right. Oh, yeah. Joe: But also Tim: Oh. Joe: All right, cool, well, that's that's great. So how did you change or why did you change the name from Apple Wellness to the healthy place? Tim: Yeah, really good question, you know, Apple Wellness was a good name, you know, in the sense of like Apple a day keeps the doctor away and we just had too many people thinking we are the Mac Apple store. So I literally get calls, at least weekly, Joe: Wow, Tim: And Joe: That's so subtle. Tim: At least I know, and then I'd see my employee across the way and he'd be talking to somebody and he'd be like, well, try turning the phone off and then turn it back on, you know? Joe: Oh, my Tim: So Joe: God. Tim: Especially after he got the e commerce thing going, I started, Becky, as the graphic designer and kind of branding expert within our company for a long time. She's like the Apple word's taken. That's just gone. And I should have consulted with her a little bit more before we chose the name. Joe: Uh huh. Tim: And so she's always kind of wanted it changed. But then I found out that Apple, the company, has an Apple wellness program Joe: Oh, Tim: For employees Joe: Of. Tim: Like it's trademarked. I mean, so I figured it was just a matter of time before I end up getting some sort of litigation letter from Joe: Yeah, Tim: Apple. Joe: Yeah, well, OK, that's interesting. Tim: Yeah. Joe: So you stole one of my questions, but it was perfect because it was actually in line with what you were talking about. But I want to go back to it because Tim: Sure. Joe: It's important, again, for like the entrepreneurs that are listening to this and what we just went through with covid, you talked about shifting. They're not shifting, but literally adding to what you've already established. Right. So you were Tim: You. Joe: You were a retail store, people walking in foot traffic. That's what you counted on to make a living. Right. So when covid hit, obviously, everyone stayed home. So there goes all the foot traffic. So did you already have the e commerce portion of this set up before this happened when you said it was a blessing in disguise? Were you already ready to go the moment like that? Tim: Really Joe: The Tim: Good. Joe: You know, Tim: Yes, Joe: The doors. Tim: Yes and no, I Joe: Ok. Tim: Mean, it's like we had the website, we had the ability to set up ship products out. We had maybe three hundred out of the four thousand products that we have in our stores on the site. So we were ready in certain ways and then not ready for a lot of things. And we had no idea on the digital side of marketing, Google ads, Facebook ads, SEO optimization, email marketing. We hadn't done text messaging. We hadn't done very much of that, very basic and each one of those areas. So it was all of a sudden like pedal to the metal once March hit, where it was like, OK, we have some of these basic fundamentals. And I always tell a business owner like you, if you don't already, you have to have a website like I mean, covid showed us all that pretty quick, like Joe: Yeah. Tim: Have to have a website and you can get free ones are very inexpensive. Wick's dotcom. I'll tell business owners, like even if you're not a photographer, don't don't try to be don't don't get some real basic a white posterboard. Put the product right over it. Just take a picture by a window. Don't don't try to get real clever with it because Vecchi tells me that it can end up looking really bad if Joe: Mm hmm. Tim: You're trying to do so. Basic things like get a website, get a social media, you know, ask your grandkid if you don't know how to set one up sort of thing. So we had all the basics, but then for us it was like, OK. Let's get live chat on our website, because we are one of our difference makers, is consultations Joe: Huh? Tim: With we change lives because we ask questions and we figure out the best products and forms and brands for their specific issues, problems. So let's get a live chat on our website so we can have those conversations. Let's get free shipping. Let's make it really easy. Even if we lose money on maybe one out of five orders, let's just like make it easy, reduce friction in any way that we can. Let's get on Google ads and Facebook ads. So we hired a digital agency for that and it's pretty cool. A year later, we had 30 percent overnight of our foot traffic was just gone once we were able to stay open, thankfully. But that 30 percent in one year's time, we were able to build that on our e-commerce platforms. We were able to replace what was lost. So I'm still head spinning, so thankful for my team able to bring that together because it's quite the operation and it takes a lot of work. Joe: Yeah, did you did you keep the stores open themselves or did you? Tim: We did Joe: You did OK. Tim: Not. Joe: Ok, Tim: We Joe: And Tim: Were Joe: Was it. Tim: Scrambling in the beginning of if we could be classified as essential or not, and my belief is that the immune system is something that can really be strengthened. I'm more passionate about terrain versus the germs so we can strengthen our terrain, strengthen our immune systems, both defense and offense. I mean, there's incredible science behind simple nutrients like sand, mucus from elderberry. The University of Sydney showing the prevention which with elderberry prevention of viruses entering the cell. I mean, it's some pretty cool science. So at the beginning of the covid thing, it was like, OK, I'm not going to tell anybody I can cure or prevent Joe: Mm hmm. Tim: Whatever, but I'm sure as heck going to yell it from the rooftop that you can strengthen your immune system and a strong immune system. Strong health is the best defense against any disease, virus, sickness anywhere. So I got pretty passionate about that a year ago. Joe: Cool. Yeah, that's great. So I'm normally pretty good at not bouncing around, but in this case, I want to go back to when you decided to do this. You know, obviously when when someone gets released from a corporate environment and they're like, oh, my gosh, I don't have control over my own destiny because these people Tim: The. Joe: Just literally rip the rug out from underneath me, which is another thing that a lot of entrepreneurs know because this is how they got to where they are there that happen to them. Like I'm not letting someone else dictate how my life is going to turn out. Right. So Tim: Yeah. Joe: But what's really crazy is I don't know if it if in Wisconsin or the places where you have these stores, obviously we know that you already brought it up at GNC is a big brand around the country. There's also where we are. There's the vitamin store. Right. Are the stuff that one of those Tim: Yeah, Joe: Is a vitamin Tim: Yeah, Joe: Shopper. Tim: Yeah. Joe: So there's a lot of these places. So it's almost like you saying you and Becky going, oh, yeah, we're going to create the next pizza delivery like pizza Tim: Now, Joe: Delivery Tim: There's already Joe: Franchise. Tim: 10 right around Joe: Yeah, Tim: The corner, Joe: Right. Tim: So let's see number 11, yeah. Joe: Right. It's we're going to be the next Pizza Hut or Papa John's or whatever. It's just like that that industry Tim: Yes, Joe: That's it takes a lot Tim: It's Joe: Of guts. Tim: So competitive. Joe: Yeah. So when you thought about it, as all entrepreneurs, do, we always come up with these ideas and then we sometimes will kill our own ideas without our spouse or partner or someone will say they'll be the sensible one and say Tim: Right, Joe: That's Tim: Right, Joe: Never Tim: Yeah. Joe: Right. But then you have all these outside influences of of friends and things. And, you know, at any moment, if you would have said, hey, we're thinking of opening up a vitamin supplement, healthy sort of Tim: John. Joe: That people would look at you. But what about all of these major brands? So tell me about how you got over the hump to make to pull the trigger. Tim: Yeah, do that's such a good question and, you know, to identify and I had some friends who opened a coffee shop, you know, and a year later, you know, the coffee shops not doing so well is unfortunate with covid timing and everything. And it's like the supplement thing where you, like, hear this and you're like, oh, I don't know, you know, I wish him well, but I don't know if that's going to work because it's just like there's a hundred of them, you know. Joe: Right. Tim: So I think for me what happened was I worked for GNC for, I don't know, five years. And you start to see good stuff. You start to see bad stuff, you start to see their model. They were purchased by China a while back. So, OK, it's all sourced from China. Forms of nutrients are in their synthetic forms or not so absorbable forms. And you start to learn like, OK, a better product would help this person more than this form of curcumin that's not absorbing into their system from China or wherever, you know, so you start to see where you could make a difference and you sort of start to see your difference makers. So in the supplement world, there's two veins of supplement stores. There's the type of stores that are all about muscle gain and weight loss, you know, weight loss, thermogenic high caffeine, ephedra, and then trim and tracks Hydroxycut. And a lot of that isn't super healthy for Joe: Hmm. Tim: People to be taking steroids or pro hormones, you know, not super healthy. So that's like one vein of supplement stores. And then there's another vein of supplement stores that just they sourced from China. They use synthetic nutrients. It's a little bit more about margin and profit than it is about quality and making a difference. And so that is something I realized pretty early on. And there's not too many supplement health food stores that have a lot of knowledge where you walk in. And there's not just like a high schooler selling the huge jug of protein because it gets a two dollar commission on it, you know. Joe: Yes, I do know. Tim: Yeah, yeah. And there's just not a lot of those out there. So then all of a sudden starting to dream about, you know, originating from my mom's story where somebody really helped her out, where I can really make a difference, because if I open my own stores or store at the time, I can bring in some of the best brands in the world. And pretty quick, in any industry, you find out, good, better, best. And I want to be in that best category. And all of a sudden you're working with some of the best brands in the world and you have the knowledge to be a to guide somebody with Crohn's disease. Let's just Joe: Mm hmm. Tim: Talk over asthma on natural alternatives that really work. And if you impact them, if you help them, if you change their life a little bit for the better, now they're going to keep coming back forever. And they tell everybody they know because there's such a vacuum, such a desperate need in this day and age for knowledgeable resources in the natural alternative space. We have a ton of medical, we have a ton of pharmaceutical drugs. We just don't have information coming to the general public on natural alternatives that work. And I get to be that resource in Madison, Wisconsin. So I think that's why we have done well in our brick and mortar stores. And I think that's probably why our attention is higher for our e-commerce is because of that customer service, that knowledgeable resource, that going the extra mile to impact their lives. And I'll give you an example. A lady might hit our live chat from California and say, hey, I'm looking for a V12. Can you give me a recommendation? And then we might ask the question like, absolutely. Here's a couple of options. Do you mind if I ask while you're while you're taking V12? Oh, my doctor said because I have really low energy, I have nerve pain and my mental clarity and focus, I get like foggy brain all the time. So then all of a sudden we say, awesome, OK, I'm actually going to encourage the method in form of V12 because it absorbs much better than this sign form that I first sent you, because I really want you to feel the difference. And since you're feeling fatigued, a little brain fog, I'd love for you to consider this adrenal boost product that has adapted genic herbs in there, like Atul Gawande wrote Rodeo Mocca because ninety two percent of fatigue is related to your adrenal glands. So then you recommend that product. They get it. And this lady two months later goes, Oh my gosh, my energy is a little better, my focus is better, my stress is reduced, which I didn't even bring up. But that adrenal product helps with stress, too, I guess. Joe: Mm hmm. Tim: Then all of a sudden they're leaving a review like, wow, that wellness consultant, Ryan, he's one of our our wellness consultants. He really helped me out. And so it's a very different sort of dynamic than a typical GNC store, health food store, vitamin shop type experience. They're Joe: Huh? Tim: All great stores. I mean, I love Natural. Anywhere you can get them. So that was like our difference maker and that's why I thought I could make a go out of it. Joe: Ok, cool. I have so much to ask you now, because you keep opening up like Kansas. So. So before again, I, I want this stuff to be helpful for the entrepreneur. And then then we're going to help the consumers that listen to this. So how when you decided on doing this and said, OK, and let's pull the trigger, how did you figure out the place where you're going to open up store number one, that you do all that extensive, Tim: Oh, Joe: You know, Tim: Good question, yes. Joe: Traffic, you know, what's going to pop up around us? What Tim: You know, Joe: Is, you Tim: Find Joe: Know? Tim: Find a good broker, a real estate broker that can find you spaces. So I had a guy named Kent in Madison, Wisconsin, and he you don't have to pay these guys. You know, it's the landlord that pays them. Joe: Right. Tim: And so as a young entrepreneur about to, like, risk everything you had, that was really important for me to know. Like, I I still am shocked by that. Like, you can just call one of these guys, try to find a reputable one, find somebody that trusts that can make a good referral. And they do all this scouting for you. They send you all the reports and you don't pay a penny. You know, I am a bottom line at the end or something, but you don't pay a penny for this. They get paid from the landlord. So he was bringing me idea after idea after idea. And he had been in the industry for a long time. So he knew the city really, really well. And he was able to guide me through, hey, this has a really strong anchor. The anchor in Fitchburg was Joe: Yeah, Tim: Target. Joe: Yeah. Tim: It was a super, super target. So I was like, oh, learning about anchors are important, Joe: Yeah. Tim: Really important. So I tell you, if you're listening, like, look for some strong anchors, because that's really going to help you for traffic. Joe: And just for the listeners and the people that don't like it, like when they talk about like a small strip mall or a plaza or something like that or even in a in a mall small, an anchor is an anchor store. That is when they go in, there's a really good chance they're not going away like they are a big thing like Target or Wal-Mart Tim: Exactly. Joe: Or Nordstrom or whatever. So I just wanted to clear that up because I didn't know at one point. But I know when you're looking at retail space like that, you want to be surrounded by an anchor store that has been around forever and is not going away. Tim: Yes, and just to further drive that point home, we have for brick and mortar stores and the one that's doing like the worst is the one that doesn't have a strong anchor by it. So just get one with a strong anchor and then look at price points and definitely negotiate. So we had that broker that was able to help us out. He was able to negotiate tenant improvement. Our big deal when you're opening a store, because you you could use money towards the build out and you can ask landlords for that. So if, again, if you have a good broker and you tell them your story, what you're trying to build out, a lot of times you can get a number of things paid for by the landlord because they're about to ask you to sign a five year lease. Joe: Mm hmm. OK. So at this point, the four locations that you have, you are in a lease situation Tim: Yes, all for you Joe: At Tim: And I've Joe: Any Tim: Looked into purchasing. Joe: Ok, so there is yeah, that's my question. It's like when do you pull the trigger on saying, OK, I want to actually start to own some of these buildings are these spaces. And that's a huge job. That's that's really put your Tim: Yeah, Joe: Neck out. Right. Tim: So in all four, I looked at them and each one has a different story, the first one I looked into though, at the Fitchburg location, the buildings were not for sale. So I was like, all this is so cool. So I looked into it and it was seven million dollars for these two buildings because it's in a strong anchor, high traffic area. So it is difficult to buy the spot by the strong anchor Joe: Maha. Tim: Because it really it would have been risking I couldn't I couldn't do it. But then the idea next idea is like, well, maybe I should move locations now that my name is established, if I can buy a strip mall down the way or something like that. So that Joe: Te. Tim: Idea is in the back of my head. But then you move away from the strong anchors. That's Joe: Right. Tim: Been called me back. Joe: Right, cool. See, that was perfect because that was like all of the things that you have to consider and Tim: Right. Joe: It's yeah, that's a tough decision, man. That's a lot of money. Tim: It is, Joe: Yeah. Tim: Dude, I Joe: Yeah. Tim: Know and I have a buddy who owns a dentistry office and he Joe: We. Tim: Was able to purchase his location and it's awesome. He's about to pay it off after ten years. And I'm super excited. So Joe: Yeah. Tim: It is depends on the situation. Joe: Yeah, OK, so now let's get into what I consider in the world that you're in and I'm a huge fan of natural like I is, it's a there's a difference between naturopathic or is. Right. Is that pronounced correctly? Is that they say it Tim: Yeah, Joe: Now Tim: Naturopathic Joe: Or Tim: Medicine Joe: Or homoeopathic. Tim: Homoeopathy yupp homoeopathy Joe: Right. OK. Tim: And integrative medicine is kind of like medical and naturopathy together. Joe: Yep, yep, so Joel and my life partner went through a battle of breast cancer where she had some lymph nodes and luckily, you know, Tim: Giese. Joe: Through through chemo and radiation, she came out on the other side and everything's great. But Tim: Good. Joe: The big thing that she also had was she had a naturopathic doctor Tim: Hmm. Joe: That went that came from the cancer world. So the advantages is that he understood the treatment that was happening with the normal medicine and he knew what to give her to not take away from what she was doing with the chemo and radiation, but at the same time helped to keep her system built up and not offset any of that. So there was a perfect marriage between the two. And Tim: That's. Joe: I swear to this day, I feel like that was the reason that she was Tim: Wow. Joe: Fairly, fairly normal through the process, like we were doing 90 X and she was in the middle Tim: That's Joe: Of chemo Tim: All Joe: And radiation. Tim: Right. Joe: Yeah, it was ridiculous. So Tim: Dude, that's Joe: So Tim: Awesome. Joe: I'm a big fan of the naturopathic side of things and natural remedies and all of that. So Tim: Not the. Joe: So that's why this was a cool episode for me, because it's hard to talk with somebody that is in this niche that you're in without it being the big stores. And so my first question, because I got so many of them Tim: I Joe: First question and the first Tim: Love Joe: Question Tim: It. Joe: Is how do you become with all of the misinformation that's out Tim: The. Joe: In the world? Right. And this is what confuses all of us as consumers. You go to Amazon and you say, I need a B vitamin of Tim: Right Joe: Some B supplement. Tim: Now. Joe: And the habit is you you click on the five star rating, things that you want. You think that's going to be the best because people are taking their time to read it, which Tim: Yeah. Joe: I think there's enough Tim: What Joe: Conversation Tim: Did he. Joe: In the world that says that's not necessarily true. Tim: Right. Joe: And then you literally are just like throwing darts at a dartboard with Tim: I Joe: A blindfold Tim: Know that, Joe: On. So. Tim: I know. Joe: So how do you get through all the misinformation that you feel so confident enough that when you when you suggest something to a client that you haven't been taken advantage of by the misinformation, like Tim: Yeah, Joe: How do you get through Tim: Because. Joe: All of that stuff? Tim: A great question and even the reviews, if a company markets really well and they're incredible at marketing, they can get a billion, five star reviews and they can be like synthetic sourced from China, not NSF certification. So over the years, you start to be able to read between the lines and you start to be able to say, hey, this is B.S. over here. This is marketing. Only not met with quality. And like any industry, you start to learn the good, better and best. So there's a few things. So first and foremost, I think everybody needs somebody on their team. Like your wife has that naturopathic doctor now as a resource that she can probably shoot an email to or make an appointment with and ask these questions. I think everybody needs somebody on their team because most people have a medical doctor and beyond that and they might have a pharmacist. Right. And they're good to have on your team, but we need somebody with. Expertise, knowledge, history in the supplement space, because even a naturopathic doctor, they know way more than I do about the human body, about maybe. Yeah, just just how to treat maybe disease. Tim: Right. When you're in the supplement space, there is you get to deal with hundreds and hundreds of brands. And over the decades, which I think 18 years now, you start to find out what brands are good and trustworthy and which ones aren't because the FDA doesn't regulate all the supplements. So you can say whatever you want on the label about me, your romantic drink here, but you can say whatever you want and. FDA isn't going to necessarily nail you if you're lying, if your label is making false label claims and this happens, there was a clinic in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, where not real clinical, but where they took products from a number of stores, GNC, Walgreens, Wal-Mart and Target. They took supplements from those four stores and then they had them tested at Chavannes and it was Chavannes Labs. And all four of them had discrepancies with what the label said and what was actually in the capsule. And one product was an Asia product, which is good for the immune system. And it had zero percent echinacea in there and a little bit of garlic like Joe: Oh, Tim: What Joe: My Tim: The H Joe: Gosh. Tim: Now? Yeah. So that exactly what you said. It's shooting in the dark. Is it marketing that's producing these reviews? Is it quality? Is it going to help me? Is it a waste of my money? Am I being sold. Right. So there's all those questions and the privilege that I'm so thankful for is just being submersed in the supplement world long enough. You learn a couple of things. So sourcing is vital. Where is it coming from? There is vitamin C that you can get our China, that there's some concerns there with chemicals, heavy metals, arsenic, or you can get vitamin C from Scallan, which happens to have a really rich ascorbic acid form of vitamin C clean, great place to source it from. So where a product is sourced from is really important. Number two is does the brand have NSF certification? So NZDF C, GMP grade facilities that they work with, which they're paying money to NSF to a third party test and ensure that they're having all of these practices that are healthy for supplements, they're sourcing their cleanliness. Has it been tested? Is it clean? Those questions? And NSF doesn't care about the company. They care about the reputation. So there sure as heck going to just that's a good certification is trusted in the supplement world to ensure that what's on the label is actually in the product. Tim: So sourcing No. One, NSF, GMP certification, number two and number three, which all of these take some sort of expertise or having somebody on your your team. You know, that's why I say to have somebody on your team first. But number three is the forms of nutrients. So E 12, which I gave the example earlier, Psion Kabalan and B 12 is synthetic. So your body has to convert it and you lose a lot of the content in that conversion versus a methyl form B 12, which is the natural form that your body absorbs really, really well. So four items, number one and two, saucing and NSF, you can have a very clean form of sign Kabalan and B 12 source, very clean. You could have NSF facility ensuring that you have that 50 micrograms of cyanide Kabalan B 12 in the B complex. But then it would take some expertise to know, like, OK, that's fine, that's good. But we would prefer a methyl form would be 12 because it absorbs so much better Joe: Mr.. Tim: And every single nutrient. This blows my mind because every single nutrient has good, better, best. You know, whether you're talking about vitamin C, ascorbic acid, sodium ascorbic calcium ascorbic B 12, which I'm talking about the six paroxetine hydrochloride versus toxified phosphate turmeric. You can get the the turmeric that colors your Indian curry orange and you can take that capsule and it's good for you. It just doesn't do very much for inflammation unless you extract the curcumin out and then even that doesn't have a good absorption rate. So blending it with the turmeric, essential oils and the sunflower lecithin launch the absorption where it's literally absorbing two hundred to five hundred times better than the turmeric Indian spice that you started with. And that's the form of ninety five. That's the form that Baylor University of Texas is using to literally treat cancer and chronic pain with incredible results. I mean, the cancer story is very cool. Inflammation is the root of the root system of cancer. Joe: Mm, huh. Tim: So that's an example where it's like oh man form so saucing, NZDF, GMP, great facility forms of nutrients. Those are the big three that you want to look at to know quality. Right. So that's what I always tell somebody, find somebody that you can trust. So for you guys, it might be your your doctor that your wife worked with for in Madison, Wisconsin. A lot of people trust the healthy place to help guide them, know we don't do commission so that we can just recommend what's best so Joe: Right. Tim: People can use that live chat feature on our website to just ask those questions. But find a health food store maybe that is trustworthy in your home town, that you do meet a job like my mom met John Joe: Mm hmm. Tim: Or find a store like mine that you can connect with and you can go to when health strikes, health problems strike because everybody has some conditions, some problem, something, even if it's something as simple as fatigue, you know. Ninety two percent of fatigue is related to your adrenal glands. You can strengthen your adrenal glands and you can have more vibrant energy every day. And people just don't know that. So they keep reaching for the coffee or the soda or the caffeine pills, what have you. So get somebody on your team that you can trust. Joe: So go. So you said at one point in this conversation that do you have over 4000 Tim: Products, yeah. Joe: Excuse now, right? OK, so let's just take that as an example. It's a full time job for someone like you to be the Tim: Yes. Joe: Gatekeeper Tim: Yeah. Joe: Of your of the healthy place. You have to be the gatekeeper to say, yes, this comes into our door and gets put on ourselves or in our e-commerce store or Tim: The. Joe: No, this doesn't meet the criteria. So to me, it feels like it's continuing education and literally a full time job for whoever that person. Let's just say it's you at the moment that Tim: Yeah. Joe: Is the person that says yay or nay on these products. So it's just mind boggling what is out there and what you have to do to sort of educate yourself to to say, yes, this makes the cut, not only doesn't make the cut, but it's in a product. It's not a product and not a C product, you Tim: Yeah, Joe: Know what I mean? Tim: You're Joe: So. Tim: Absolutely right. And it's like reading a book, though, you don't want to minimize what I do, it's like it's not hard for you to read English, you know, after you've learned it. But if you're learning a new language, it looks like totally confusing. Overwhelming can take me forever to learn this language. And it might take some years to learn it. Once you have that language mastered, it's just like reading a book, you know, Joe: Yeah. Tim: You just check the boxes, right. OK, where is the source from NSF? GMP, what's the forms of these nutrients? Because you start to learn and then you have experts that you follow. A lot of people smarter than me that I follow. Dr. X, Dr. While, Dr. Whitaker, Dr. Northrup. And you start Terry Lambrew and you start to follow these gurus in the southern industry that have been there for 40 years, that know so much more than you. And you're reading their literature, listening to their podcasts. They're the symposiums around the planet that are going on for this breakthrough, that breakthrough. You get the subscriptions right to the. So I just tell everyone, get plugged in at least where you're getting encouraged on a regular basis to own your health, build your terrane strength in your health and all the ways that you can inspire yourself on a regular basis and then get somebody on your team that you can trust to help guide you in the space, because it is a new language, right? Joe: It's nuts, it's just it's so frustrating. Did a three month vegan plan Tim: Nice. Joe: Because Tim: Yeah. Joe: I'm not vegan, but I loved it like it was good for me. But I Tim: Yeah. Joe: Actually I actually, in the process, lost a lot of muscle mass because I was also going always going to the gym. But all of a sudden I started to shrink both, Tim: Right, Joe: You Tim: Like, Joe: Know. Tim: No. Joe: So, yes, I'm like, I'm doing all this hard work. And it's just I needed to get on a B 12 vitamin of something. And it's funny because I don't even know what I'm taking, but it's something that I got from Amazon and Tim: Your Joe: I Tim: I can do it. I've been assigned to general Joe: I'm sure. Tim: Check that Joe: So Tim: After Joe: I'm going Tim: The program. Joe: To look when yeah. When we're done, I'm going to look and then I'm going to and then I'm going to say I need a direct line to Tim in Tim: There Joe: The Tim: We Joe: Chat Tim: Go. Joe: Room. Tim: Yeah. Joe: So have you ever thought of franchises? Tim: I have, I Joe: And Tim: Have. Joe: And I'm Tim: You Joe: Just interested you don't have to you don't have to Tim: Know, Joe: Say to. Tim: I'm so I am very interested and I have been kicking that ball around in my head for a long time because we are we specialize in education, right. So you got to find ways to duplicate yourself in a franchise. And so we created a three month curriculum that our wellness consultants have to go through. They have to pass quizzes and tests and they have to get certifications from this company, this company and MKB certification, all the enzyme certifications to understand the industry, know what questions to ask customers and how to make recommendations. So that's one of the hardest things that we've done that would make it more easy to duplicate the knowledge side of our company and our brand. And as I've talked to people who have created franchises, the the legal side to it is one hurdle and then enforcing them to actually maintain your model as representing the healthy place. What we have created is the two big unknowns for me as far as difficulty. So then the choice came, should we just keep adding brick and mortars in our own territory? Right, right. In the Madison area and then put all of our energy and focus into our brands that we've created and our website because there's infinite you can do in the business world and you kind Joe: Mm Tim: Of Joe: Hmm. Tim: Have to choose. Joe: Yeah. Tim: So we decided to park the franchise idea for now and really go after lively vitamin CO. This is one of the brands that have been borne out of our brick and mortar stores. So now we're selling that to other health food stores around the country. And the number two is build find your healthy place dotcom, because just like Amazon is a freakin mammoth, there's so much opportunity to impact and power and educate everything that I'm passionate about on that website. So currently with four kids, we are chilling on the franchise idea. But I think it's brilliant because there's not there's not the option out there, which is why it keeps coming back to me Joe: Yeah, Tim: Like Joe: Yeah. Tim: There's not that many health food stores out there that really care. Soulsby for sales. You know, as one of my Joe: Mm Tim: Saying Joe: Hmm. Tim: That, Joe: I Tim: I really Joe: Love that, by the way, I love that. Tim: Thank you. Thank you. There is a time I was praying and it was like not I it going to make my friggin mortgage. When I first opened the store, I was praying to God for sales and I was like, God to declare bankruptcy here is brutal. And it was like an arrow is like, do you care about their soul as much as you care about the sales? Joe: Yeah. Tim: And it was kind of striking. So, yeah, there's not that many stores out there that really care about the human that have knowledge to help guide them and a model that works to help people, you know. So it's still an idea that keeps coming back to me. So Joe: Right. Tim: We'll see. Joe: Yeah, well, good luck if it happens, I'm sure it'll be great. Tim: Thank you. You see one popping up next door, you'll know where to get your V12. Joe: There you go. So you hit upon this a moment ago with the whole franchising thing of how to actually create this template and create a strict thing where where the people that are talking to your customers are very educated and they're giving the right information and asking the right questions. So how have you done that with the people that are at your current stores and how have you done that with the people that are on the other end of the chat? When somebody files in to ask these questions, Tim: Yeah, so. Joe: How do you get something like when is somebody OK? You're ready to take a call, you're ready to be on the chat, you're ready to to advise a customer in the store, like, what's that process? Tim: Yeah, Joe: And you don't Tim: So. Joe: Have to go too deep. I just Tim: No, Joe: I Tim: No, Joe: But Tim: That. Joe: I'm sure somebody is going to say, like, hey, Tim, super educated on this. So every time I talk, like I just said, you know what I call him on the chat, I want him, you Tim: Right. Joe: Know. So Tim: Right. Joe: How to how do you duplicate Tim so that everyone that's coming in on the chat or walking in the store says this is just a clone of Tim like he may. He's already run them through the ringer, you know? Tim: Yeah, that's so the three month curriculum that we created is our pride and joy. I'm so thankful for that. It was brutal to create. So I created one hundred videos, having a five minute conversation where I'm explaining different parts of the world and explaining brands and what to look for and how to explain it. And then we'll go through they'll have to pass quizzes and tests based on each module. So there's nine different modules to this curriculum. They have to go through trainings with specific companies. They have to do a number of roleplaying activities with our managers where they pretend to be the customer Joe: Mm Tim: And Joe: Hmm. Tim: Coming in, hey, I'm looking for some CBDs. What do you got? And so they get tested there and they have to get these certifications from each of these brands, so they have to pass it. So there's one guy who got to the end and he is like, OK, dude, we got to rewind because you're not retaining this stuff. So either you did the last minute cramming for this quiz the night before. And like I didn't I did that in high school. Joe: Ok. Tim: And then you don't retain it, right. Joe: Yeah. Tim: So do you really care about this or not? So he had to start over. He had to go through it again. So it's a team. We have a leadership team of five. And so we have these nine modules, the quizzes, the tests. They have to pass them. They have to do the role playing. And then the leadership team of five will say, OK, this person's ready or they're really not ready. And there's still a couple of parts of our team where we're like, OK, where they can be a wellness consultant in the store, but we don't think they're ready to be on live chat. So then we'll wait maybe six months until they have a little bit more experience, because where our team learns the most is from the customers coming in asking the questions and they don't know the answers of how to treat colitis Joe: Mm Tim: With Joe: Hmm. Tim: Whatever. So then they have to go find out to get back to that customer and then they learn something. So right now, I'm proud to say our live chat feature on our website, if you go to find your other place, dotcom lower, right. You get that little live chat bubble, the seven different consultants that you might run into over there are, I wouldn't say clones of Tim because I think they're smarter than me, but they are really well equipped and able to match, kind of hit the mark of where they need to be. And they all know and are passionate enough about helping people to not. One of the first things that I'll tell them is, dude, never bullshit. Joe: Yeah, yeah. Tim: That's a real thing. And I came from a I won't say anything negative where it's just more about getting the sale, about getting that commission. And and that's part of why we don't do commissions. So it's a fun process for intense. Joe: Well, that's great, man. Yeah, so I want to respect your time. We're down to the wire. I want to make sure I didn't miss anything that you want to talk about. So you have four stores in Wisconsin. Tim: Madison, Joe: Correct. Tim: Wisconsin, the. Joe: Ok, and you have the website Tim: Find your healthy place, Dotcom. Joe: Buying your healthy place, Dotcom. Anything else that I missed that is important that we talk about? Tim: You know, dude, I mean, as I was thinking about this program and your followers, like what your mission is, you're trying to encourage entrepreneurs, trying to encourage people to be thankful for life. You don't Joe: Mm Tim: Take Joe: Hmm. Tim: To treat life like the gift it is, you Joe: Yep. Tim: Know? So I did want to offer your followers a coupon code. If they don't have you know, if you have a health food store in your own home town, that's great sport. Those guys, if you have somebody on your team, that's awesome. That's my main passion. And if you need a resource that you can trust, if you go to find your healthy place dotcom and you get something type in coupon code, Castelo, and that'll give 30 percent off the full price on anything on our whole website, we have thousands of products. So anything from V12 to something more intense. And regardless if you buy something or not, use that live chat feature to ask questions. You know, I've had people call my cell phone bill. Hey, Jim, you know, I'm in Wholefoods right now and I'm looking at three different multivitamins. Like which one do you think I should get? You know, and I get to tell them and it's fun and you can share the love. And so use that live chat feature as a resource, because more than ever, dude, we need natural alternatives. We need some education we at least need to know about, like Joel and your Joe: Yeah, Tim: Life partner. Dude, Joe: Yeah. Tim: What if she didn't have that naturopathic doctor that gave her some natural supplements through one of the most intensive crisis's that she ever faced in her life? Like, you know, in your gut that that helped her in a dramatic way because you watched her do P ninety three, the cancer experience. Joe: Yeah. Tim: I mean, that's a miracle, dude. And it took somebody reaching out and it took a resource being willing to respond to create that miracle, you know. And so that's what I want for people. Joe: Yeah, it's I can't stress it enough that Tim: Right. Joe: What I saw before my very eyes every single Tim: Right. Joe: Day and it would and then I see people that are going through cancer of some type and they're only being treated, Tim: As Joe: You know, Tim: A medical doctor, yeah. Joe: And they're their body is just being crushed. Tim: Yes. Joe: And there's and there's nothing, no nothing helping to offset the chemicals and all of the harshness Tim: Know. Joe: Of that treatment. And so. Tim: Right, and let me say, you know, you saw it with somebody you loved very much, I saw it with my mom when I was five or six. And since then, I'm getting goosebumps. I have seen it for thousands of people through the last 11 years that the healthy place has been a company, thousands of people, not always cancer, but but we're talking depression, chronic pain, Crohn's disease, asthma, like people suffering like megacorp. There's so much suffering going on Joe: Mm hmm. Tim: In the world and there is natural alternatives that people literally don't know about. They have nobody in their world telling them. So they just listen to whatever mainstream media or their medical doctor Joe: Yeah. Tim: Or their pharmacist. And there's a lot of good people with good intent in those areas. It's just there's not the voice of natural alternatives. So we need to know about this stuff. We've got to get the word out. Joe: Yeah, it's great, man, I love what you're doing, and this Tim: Think. Joe: Was exciting for me and and I think I actually have your personal email, so I'm just going Tim: That's Joe: To I'm Tim: Awesome. Joe: Going to go I'm going to go ten. I need Tim: You Joe: More Tim: Should. Joe: Energy, Tim. I think I think I have inflammation. And I'm going Tim: Yeah, Joe: To be like. Tim: I know you should, and if anyone's listening to and they because sometimes, you know, they just have a trust factor or whatever, Tim at Find Your Healthy Place Dotcom. I am happy to take emails. This what I get to do all day, dude, and it's just fun. It's so rewarding. You just get to point people in the right direction and help them out. So I love it. Joe: I wish you all the luck in the world, this is a Tim: Thank you. Joe: This is a great thing that you're doing. It's nice to have somebody who is, like you said, it's it's Soulsby before sales. It's a great it's a great way to do it. And I think Tim: Thank Joe: You'll be Tim: You. Joe: Rewarded continually be rewarded for doing Tim: Thank Joe: It that Tim: You. Joe: Way. I'll put everything in the show notes. Thank you for the coupon for the listeners Tim: Now. Joe: And I'll make sure I have all the correct links. So find your healthy place. Dotcom is the website. The company's name is the Healthy Place for locations in Madison, Wisconsin. You eventually might franchise someday, Tim: Yes, Joe: But Tim: And people on Facebook, you know, Joe: Yeah. Tim: The healthy people on Facebook, my wife's a genius as far as really caring for our community there. So you'll find a lot of good content and Instagram as well. So thank you, dear. This Joe: Yeah, Tim: Is. Joe: Tim, thanks so much, man, I really appreciate your time today and thanks for all the insight and I really do wish you the best of luck. Tim: Any time, brother, and wish the same to you. Joe: Thank you, Matt. Tim: I hope you enjoyed this episode, and I want to thank you for listening to my podcast. I know you have many options to listen to various podcasts, and I'm honored that you chose to listen to mine. I would love it if you were to rate my podcast Five Stars and write a nice review. It really helps to bring up the rankings of the podcast. Other listeners, once again, thank you so much for listening to the Joe Costello show. I appreciate you very much.  

A Friend from work pick this episode.. Tim Is an American terrorist who committed acts of terrorism on American soil he is responsible for the 1995 bombing in Oklahoma City! --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/itiswhatitispod19/support

Tim Is back and we are live again! We discuss The Battle for the Truth. Gospel Truth of Jesus Christ and everyday truth with basic life topics. We are in a spiritual battle for Truth vs lies.

02:21 - Corey’s Superpower: Reading 3,400 WPM * Increasing Reading Speed 05:35 - Keeping Up w/ AWS * Last Week in AWS (https://www.lastweekinaws.com/) * AWS Morning Brief (https://www.lastweekinaws.com/podcast/aws-morning-brief/) * Screaming in the Cloud (https://www.lastweekinaws.com/podcast/screaming-in-the-cloud/) 08:45 - Delivering Corey Quinn – Personal Evolution * Speaking Truth to Power (Kindly, but Snarkily) * Privilege * Sonia Gupta and Corey Quinn - Embarrassingly Large Numbers: Salary Negotiation for Humans (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jK6yrvsSaFs&list=PLK3MtoG6xjv_eLXKEVKG_uuYCZWqKfAaa&index=101) * Holding Yourself Accountable * Defensiveness * This Cloud Computing Billing Expert Is Very Funny. Seriously. (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/17/technology/corey-quinn-amazon-aws.html) (NYT Article) * Intentionality 25:51 - Career Snarkiness * @SimpsonsOps (https://twitter.com/SimpsonsOps) * @killedbygoogle (https://twitter.com/killedbygoogle) 28:05 - Approaching and Handling D&I as a Business Owner * Discussing Salary Compensation 43:44 - Making and Delivering Jokes 45:08 - The Prospect of Being a Public Figure 50:03 - Recognizing Your Own Failure Mode * The Art of Delegation 54:32 - Approachability * Admitting Mistakes * What’s the point? Reflections: Rein: Systems derive their purpose from how they relate to larger systems. Tim: Iterating on oneself to become a better person. Becoming a human optimized. Arty: Holding yourself accountable. Taking responsibility for how other people see you in a public context. Mando: There’s a power in not hiding who you are. Apologizing for not letting people know what’s going on. Corey: Words are loud. Words are heavy. Words carry weight. Words carry impact. There is a balance. This episode was brought to you by @therubyrep (https://twitter.com/therubyrep) of DevReps, LLC (http://www.devreps.com/). To pledge your support and to join our awesome Slack community, visit patreon.com/greaterthancode (https://www.patreon.com/greaterthancode) To make a one-time donation so that we can continue to bring you more content and transcripts like this, please do so at paypal.me/devreps (https://www.paypal.me/devreps). You will also get an invitation to our Slack community this way as well. Transcript: PRE-ROLL: Whether you're working on a personal project or managing enterprise infrastructure, you deserve simple, affordable, and accessible cloud computing solutions that allow you to take your project to the next level. Simplify your cloud infrastructure with Linode's Linux virtual machines and develop, deploy, and scale your modern applications faster and easier. Get started on Linode today with $100 in free credit for listeners of Greater Than Code. You can find all the details at linode.com/greaterthancode. Linode has 11 global data centers and provides 24/7/365 human support with no tiers or hand-offs regardless of your plan size. In addition to shared and dedicated compute instances, you can use your $100 in credit on S3-compatible object storage, Managed Kubernetes, and more. Visit linode.com/greaterthancode and click on the "Create Free Account" button to get started. ARTY: Hi, everyone. Welcome to Episode 228 of Greater Than Code. I am Artemis Starr and I am here with my fabulous co-host, Mando Escamilla. MANDO: Thank you, Artemis. I'm delighted to be here with my good friend, Rein Henrichs. REIN: Thanks, Mando and I'm here with my friend and brand-new co-host, Tim Banks. TIM: Thanks, Rein. I am Tim Banks and I am delighted to have our guest for this show, Corey Quinn. COREY: Thank you. It's an absolute pleasure to be here to once again, indulge my ongoing love affair with the sound of my own voice. TIM: Just so everyone knows, Corey is the Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, where he specializes in helping companies improve their AWS bills by making them smaller and somewhat less horrifying. He also hosts the Screaming in the Cloud and AWS Morning Brief podcasts; and curates Last Week in AWS, a weekly newsletter summarizing the latest in AWS news, blogs, and tools, sprinkled with snark and thoughtful analysis in roughly equal measure. COREY: I would agree that that is a fair characterization of what I do. Excellent work. Thank you. MANDO: Corey, we like to start off every podcast with asking our guests kind of the same question and that question is what do you consider your superpower to be and how did you get it? COREY: I would consider my superpower to be the fact that as tested and certified by some random site on the internet, I read 3,400 words a minute and the way that I got there was growing up, most people have friends, I had books because of the wonderful thing that happens in my world namely, having a personality that is pretty obvious to anyone who's spoken for more than 30 seconds. In my early phases of my life, this didn't resonate super well so I turned to escapism in the form of reading. Later in life, this turned into something of a superpower when you're trying to do something like, I don't know, read every release that comes out of AWS in a given afternoon. MANDO: Yeah, that'll do it. [laughs] REIN: There are so many. MANDO: I went to a private elementary school for a year and one of the less weird things that they had us do was do speed reading training. They had this little cylinder and you would feed in a piece of paper and the cylinder had room for, I don't know, 8 to 10 lines of the paper and it would scroll automatically at a certain rate and you would read the story and then take a test afterwards and then as you pass the tests, they would both speed up the cylinder and then also shrink the amount you could see at one time to point where it got to just reading line by line and this thing's scrolling superfast. It was really weird and really struck my competitive juices like, I really wanted to show the teachers that I could read as fast as possible. So that's the one thing from that weird private school that I went to that I think has had any sort of payoff in my adult life. COREY: There are a bunch of tools and techniques that people can use to increase reading speed, and I've never done any of them. I don't know how I do it, I just do it. It's easy to sit here and think that, “Oh, I'm going to read super quickly. That's a superpower. That's something I can use and leverage, too,” and then what? The skill, or the talent is necessary, but not sufficient the way that I do things and you have to refine it and apply it in different ways. Sitting here and doing it as a spectacle or sport on a conference panel or something and look at how fast I can consume information, not much of a party trick. Using that and applying it to something that for, in my case, distilling vast quantities information down in an understandable and meaningful way, that was the outcome. It was never about just “being smart,” which is how I often hear other folks talking about various superpowers. “Oh, I have a natural innate intelligence.” Great, what do you do with it? How do you apply that? That's the thing that often gets overlooked; at least by folks in a somewhat early stage of the development that they're dealing with professionally. REIN: So let me ask, you do the Last Week in AWS podcast, why do you give a shit about that stuff? COREY: Functionally, what I do and what I started doing when I started The Duckbill Group, it was understanding the AWS bill so that I can reduce it. Sure, it's easy to do that from a pure numerical analysis perspective and figure out oh, what reservations, or commitments you can use. But a lot of it required insight into what the application was doing because the worst consultants in the world are the ones that walk in, look around, have no idea what they're looking at, and then start telling you that you screwed everything up. That's not helpful, it's not compelling, and it's the sign of a terrifically awful consultant, in most cases. I see something that looks like it's ridiculous, my first question is: great, can you help me understand this? I don't tend to, by default, assume the person I'm talking to is a moron and similarly, I had to understand the various economic impacts of different capabilities, features, and services. They're changing all the time. I had to keep up with this stuff so I shoved a bunch of things into my RSS feed and I was tracking this because there was nowhere else to do it. That got me 80% of the way there to being able to share this with the rest of the world. I figured, ah, I can make other people do my work for me. I figured I would launch a newsletter, run it for a few weeks, someone would chime in, “Well, why don't you just read, insert other thing here?” and then great. I can turn off the newsletter. I found the thing that does this for me and I can focus on other things. Instead, 550 people signed up for the first issue and it's been growing ever since and it turns out that thing that people should read to solve this problem is the thing that I built. It still surprises me and the reason I care about it all is because my customers need to know these are the things, but they don't want to read all of it. They don't want to know all of these things. They want to solve their problem. REIN: It seems relatively easy for a consultant to go in and say, cut here, trim there, and then you'll get 20, 50% off of your AWS bill. But isn't the thing that you want for the people who will be there long after you're gone to be able to make better decisions about their own spend? COREY: One of the nuanced areas of what I do is this idea that, “Oh, I'm going to come in and lower your bill,” That virtually always happens, but that's not the actual goal. The goal is to inform the business so that they can make decisions around managing spend, managing capability, and managing risk. In some cases, we suggest spending more on certain areas such as, “Huh, you claim that that thing is an incredibly critical to your business set of data and you're not backing it up anywhere. Perhaps, you should consider doing that.” It's the idea of doing the right thing, not the cheap thing. It's we don't ever charge for example, by percentage of savings, or percentage of bill, it's flat rate only because once that's done and we agree on what that rate is, there's no other conflict of interest. I'm not trying to rack up savings to claim a percentage of it. I have no partnerships with any vendor in the space, so I'm not getting a kickback if I say, “Oh, use this tool or that tool or that service.” Instead, it purely reduces me down to, “This is what I would do if I were in your position, take it or leave it.” TIM: So I think Corey, it's fair to say that people recognize your expertise, both in optimizing of costs and optimizing the practice. Writing good tools, adopting best practices, having sound resilient architectures, and saving money. But it's also fair to say that that's not why people follow you. You have a voice and a particular way of analyzing things that appeals to people. Snark has its place and it's very well-placed in your commentary, but what it mostly involves is true insight. So can you give me the story behind what really empowered you and made you comfortable in delivering your full Corey Quinn to people in an industry where maybe people aren't really supposed to be their whole selves? COREY: My entire career, I had a core competency that I was always the absolute best in the room at, across the board and no one could step to me as far as being good at that thing and that thing was getting myself fired because of the things that I said. My entire career, every boss, every mentor, every teacher, every family member, every vague acquaintance that I pass on the street has given me the same advice: “Your sense of humor/personality is going to hold you back in your career.” When I started this place, I was so tired and beaten down from hearing that, that I figured that either everyone I've ever spoken to is right and I'm wrong, or I'm right and they're all wrong. And with the confidence born of being a mediocre white man in tech, I figured let's try it and see. Because worst-case, if the whole thing blows up in my face, well, I can go back to using my maiden name professionally. I can effectively shove the Corey Quinn identity as it is down the memory hole and I can go back to being an unhappy employee somewhere else. It started to resonate and it took on a life of its own and for the first time in my entire career, I don't feel like I have to hide who and what I am and that is a powerful thing. TIM: So one of the things that I think people appreciate, especially in your very active and humorous Twitter feed, is saying the things that everyone is thinking about the Giants. You speak truth to power, but you do so in a manner that does not insult nor mischaracterize the people who make the technology, who make the decisions. Can you talk to us a little bit about how being kind while still being somewhat snarky guides – what's your thought processes and how does that guide your commentary? COREY: You say this like it's a done deal, but it's very much not. Earlier, the week that we're having this recording, I wound up doing a snarky, sarcastic rebuttal of the profile of me that appeared in the New York Times in the voice of AWS. I made some snarky offhanded comments that implied basically that AWS marketing was crap and I heard from several people inside that team that, that they thought that hurt them and to be very direct, I got that wrong. If people are hearing what I have to say and feeling bad about themselves, about their work, then I've gone in a wrong direction. It's a very fine line to walk, given who and what I am, but when people see what I have to say and hear it and they walk away hurt, I failed. I don't always get it right, clearly. All I can strive to do is be better and not make the same mistake twice. It's a constant process of evolution and learning. And to be very direct, I am incredibly grateful by people feeling that they have the psychological safety to reach out to me and say, “That hurt my feelings.” MANDO: One thing that I've seen you do, Corey, as an accessory to that is be on the lookout for people who maybe don't feel that same kind of psychological security, but also feel some, or have some negative impact, or connotation with what you said. I've seen this a couple of times. I saw it once this week, when you were talking about – you had a Twitter thread talking about how to find a job in tech, how to negotiate salaries and stuff like that. And then there was a Slack group that we're both involved in and someone made a comment saying that they felt put out a little bit by the tone of what you had said and I personally found it impressive and a little bit inspirin, the way that you responded to that individual. Would you mind building on that a little bit, why you think that's so important and then how you address and maybe manage those kinds of situations? COREY: Sure. Privilege is a funny thing because we all swim in it in various ways, no matter who you are or what you do, there are elements of privilege that are inherent to you based upon aspects of your life and to you. That's not something that you're generally aware of in a conscious sense. Instead, it's very much a part of the background of your own lived experience and it's difficult, at times, to put yourself in the shoes of people who have different stories. The natural response, in some cases, when being told about privilege is to push back, “Excuse me, nothing was handed to me. I had to work and build this thing and sure, maybe that's true on some level, but you did not have to deal with a headwinds against you that a lot of other people did.” And there is an element of, “Well, I was born on third base. I didn't hit a triple.” Yes, that's true. It absolutely is. But you still got to go from third base to home on some level. It's easier than someone who's starting off on home and having to round all of the bases and there's still work that has to be put in. But it's important to understand that this is an important thing and a lot of people struggle with it because our society is inherently unjust. There is no way around that. The differences is that I'm not sitting here when I have these conversations, talking about how I wish the world was, or how it should be. I'm one of those people that sees the world as it is, or as I assume, as I interpret it to be, and I speak from a position of this is how I function in the environment in which I find myself. Now, some aspects of what I do, do not apply to people who don't look like I do. I generally go out of my way to avoid airing those things. I don't want to build a conference talk on how to handle job interviews for white guys, because that's awful. It's about getting interesting perspectives on this one. I did that actual talk, or something close to it back in 2016, or so and when I realized what I'd built, I was horrified and didn't give it again for a couple of years and then I gave it as a keynote at devopsdays Charlotte. I did that with my co-speaker, Sonia Gupta, who she and I sat there and gave the talk called Embarrassingly Large Numbers: Salary Negotiation for Humans. Her background is as an attorney. She also doesn't look like I do. And it became a much more equitable talk, it became a much more universal talk, it was better in every respect, and it remains one of the talks I'm proudest of giving. It's a matter of when you realize that you have done something that inadvertently causes harm, or perpetuate some of the inequality that is rampant around us, it's incumbent on you, if you want to continue to be a good person, even if nowhere else other than you're in your own mind, to correct the misbehavior, say, “I'm sorry about that,” and then this is the key part, strive not to do it again. We're all works in progress. TIM: I think that notion of us all being a works in progress rings more true than I think most people like to admit. We constantly iterate on ourselves as we should be doing to find our mistakes, correct them, and then implement those corrections as we go forward. The thing that I think most people miss is the fact that they have to admit the fact that they did something wrong in the first place, especially in the form of public opinion. In a very public place like Twitter, Corey, you have done really well at that and I think there's a lot of wisdom that people can gain just by watching how you say, “Hey, this was not right,” or “I can do better,” and holding yourself accountable when especially other people hold themselves accountable. How do you think that we can promote this type of behavior in our culture and in our industry? COREY: Okay. Let me tell you a dark secret then because I don't want people to get an unrealistic expectation of who I am, or what I do. When I get it wrong, very often someone will either say something on Twitter or DM me with a, “This isn't a great take,” and every time like clockwork, my immediate response is to get defensive because no one likes being called out. What I learned I going by through the process is when I feel that flash of defensiveness: shut up. I do not respond. I step back for a minute. I go for a walk. I think. I wait for that reaction to subside and then really think about the feedback that I'm given from a place that is not in the moment, fraught with emotion. There are times that I can do that in seconds. There are times it takes me days. Usually, what happens is I realize that they have a point. Very occasionally, I disagree with what they're saying either because I didn't communicate clearly, or they misunderstood, or on some level, past a certain point, it is so far below even the level of rising to microaggression that it's one of those. Yeah, I have a bit of a hard time accepting that feedback where easy example of this is, I wound up having a gag recently called AWS Hambone, where they had some line art drawings in some of the AWS stuff that was put out, and I wound up having an event called AWS Hambone. Twitter Safety blocks someone who tweeted the phrase at one point, it was, “What is this?” Someone said, “Ah. Well, on Urban Dictionary, if you look up the word Hambone and scroll down a few things,” and of course, it's something horrific. There's always something horrific for three quarters of the words in the English language and at that point, you're so far into the weeds that I don't know that I necessarily would agree with that in that sense, but it's also not going to be a recurring gag that I use all the time. When I named my company, The Duckbill Group, and slapped a platypus up on as our mascot, I spent a week researching is there anything problematic on any aspect of the platypus and every bit of research I could do was no and here we are and no one has ever told me, the platypus is problematic. At this stage, that offer has expired. Please don't email me. But it's about doing your best to make these things right when you get it wrong, taking people's advice seriously and again, I don't do this in a vacuum. I have a number of people whose insight I trust and with whom I have a sense of psychological safety that I can reach out to and ask them, “Is this too far afield or not?” I want to be very clear, the majority of those people that I reach out to look an awful lot like me, because I'm not asking folks who are not overrepresented to do additional on paid free labor. REIN: I’d really liked to dig in a little bit more deeply to the part where you said you get defensive and then you take a moment because that seems like the key to me and it also seems like something that's really, really hard in the moment to do. Virginia Satir says that the problem isn't the problem, how we cope as the problem and that these emotions come unbidden to our consciousness, and then we get to decide, we have an opportunity to decide what we do with them. So what I'm hearing you say is you make a conscious effort to decide what to do. You feel defensive. You don't have control over that. What you have control over is what you do with it and so, my question is how do you create the space for yourself to cope? COREY: It helps tremendously in that the most common form that I use for my aggressive shitposting, hot takes, et cetera, et cetera, but also testing new things out is Twitter. There is no SLA around responses on Twitter. I don't need to respond within 30 seconds or so. Right now, we're having a conversation, if I stop for 2 minutes to really think something through, you're going to wonder if the call dropped. Twitter doesn't have that problem and from where I sit, it's a place of, I don't believe that I can control my own emotions to the point where I don't that defensive flare, but that's on me. That's something I need to think through. I don't wind up turning aside and kicking the dog, or punching a hole in the wall. I sit there because it never feels great, but it's where growth comes from. If you've doubled down on being wrong when people whose lived experience are actively telling you that what you're saying or doing causes harm, I don't believe that you are being the kind of person that in your heart of hearts, you wish you were. Now, some people want to be shitheads and that's fine. Good for you. I don't want to be around you. REIN: I want to make it possible to say your real yeses and your real nos. COREY: Yes, absolutely. Punch up. It's hilarious. I mean, I'm a hell of a cyber bully to a company that's worth $1.6 trillion, the last time I checked. If they can't take it on the chin, they need to deal with it. But there are individual people who work there and they don't deserve getting dragged. As I mentioned previously and repeatedly, the single exception to this is of course, Oracle co-founder, Larry Ellison. Because even if someone's garbage, they have friends and family who love and care for them and Larry Ellison is an asshole who does not. Nobody likes Larry Ellison and the best part of that is I got a lot of pushback and a lot of feedback on that article in the New York Times and the one thing that I thought was notable is not a single person defended Larry, or said that I was wrong because I'm right. He's an who has no friends QED, but everyone else, off the table. REIN: You're obviously very intentional about this. So what do you do intentionally to stay on the right side of that line? COREY: The honest and easy way is I talk to people. I fall into the trap personally of forgetting people behind things. To my worldview, a big company is one that has 200 people and when I don't know anyone on a service team at AWS who is involved in building a project, or launching a service, I just view it as this thing, this enormous behemoth thing and then I make fun of it. As soon as I talked to someone who was involved with that it's, “Oh crap, I need to understand who these people are.” Honestly, one of the reasons I've been so rough on Amazon Marketing is that no one in that group talks to me. It's basically a void so it becomes almost a punchline and then I have to be reminded from time to time that there are people there. That's an area I get it wrong in. Now on some level, the Amazon corporate posture is if we ignore Corey, he'll probably go away, which is absolutely the wrong direction to go in. It's akin to, “Well, if we kidnap the bear cubs, then may be that grizzly will let me pet her.” It doesn't work. [laughter] It's like smacking an alligator over the snout with a rock in the hopes it'll make him friendlier. Don't do that. I guess, I'm saying I crave attention. Well, roll with it. REIN: I think you compared yourself to an alligator. COREY: Oh, absolutely. TIM: Oh, that sounded deliberate. [overtalk] REIN: It’s fair. TIM: Alligators, to my recollection, do not have bills, correct? COREY: No, no. Those are reserved for generally ducks, geese, and platypuses. TIM: Is it platypus or platypi? COREY: Platypi is a myth. It's platypoes, if you want to go down that particular Latin root. TIM: I don't know if there's a witty monotremes joke in general so, I'll just let that go. COREY: Exactly. There are, but you have to look for them. That's why my mascot is an extreme monotreme. REIN: I like that you explicitly tried to avoid being [inaudible] platypus. COREY: There is always that aspect of things. REIN: All right, so I can tell you that platypus is actually extremely racist! [laughs] COREY: Exactly. No, no. The platypus for the mascot that we have is not racist. Well, insofar as other than the [inaudible], we are all racist to some extent, which is problematic but it is a thing to say in some quarters, but let's be a little more intentional of how we say it. The platypus isn't a bigot. The platypus isn't even usually angry most of the time. The platypus is just disappointed in all of us, because realistically, we could be doing better than we are. REIN: Do you have any advice for any of our listeners who might want to make a career out of being snarky? COREY: Quite honestly, don't do it. I'm serious. They're either a number of folks who try it periodically because they see what I'm doing, or they reach out to me and ask for advice and the advice is the same: don't do it. The reason is that with almost anything else that you're trying to do, the failure mode is just, okay, no one cares. It doesn't make a splash. It doesn't work. Okay, great. The problem with being snarky is the failure mode isn't obscurity, it's being an asshole and that failure mode is potentially very damaging. To that extent, when I see various parody accounts on Twitter, the novelty accounts that are doing snarky, or sarcastic things, I generally don't engage for a while. I want to get a read on them. Two of the parody accounts that absolutely nail it are, what is it? @SimpsonsOps is the parody account there. MANDO: Oh god, that’s fantastic. COREY: And @killedbygoogle. Both are phenomenal. They get it. I talk with the people behind those accounts regularly and I learn from them. There are times, I get it wrong and they correct me and very occasionally, I will give feedback to them when I think they've gone in a different direction and we all sort of make each other better for it as a result. But most folks do it. It doesn't end super well. There's an Andy Jassy parody account and has been for years and it's just mean. It's just mean, I'm sorry. One of the most distressing things I ever heard, that got to me through the grapevine. was that some exec at AWS was convinced for a little while that it was me and that hurt because to be very honest, I don't operate like that. I'm not here crapping on people individually, with a remarkably small subset of exceptions to that and those exceptions universally have something in common and that is that they punched down, they drive good people away, and they're small people in positions of inflated importance. Think the corporate equivalent of a number of senators that I'm sure already leaped to mind when I say that. TIM: So Corey, I'd like to ask—we talked about how you handle things on Twitter, we talked about your personal evolution—now as a business owner in the tech industry, a small business owner, B2B, not a large trillion-dollar company yet. But how are you approaching in handling diversity inclusion, especially around hiring and retention and salary equity in your own company? Q: Fair question and no one has ever asked me that, if you can believe that. The answer is that in order to build and hire diverse teams, it takes effort. The easiest thing in the world to do is to reach out to the people you know from your background. Well, that's not generally hugely diverse because regardless of what we look like, you're generally encountering them in the same types of environments, doing the same kinds of things, and you basically wind up accidentally hiring half your fraternity or whatnot for those who went to college and that's a bit of a challenge. So you have to be intentional about it, for one. You have to be prepared to expand your hiring pool. Do things that don't necessarily come naturally. There are folks who specialize in diversity, equity, and inclusion who have tremendous advice on how to do this, pay them for it. Advice is worth what you pay for it and have them assist and then from there, it's do your best. Have a way to measure what you're trying to achieve and whether you get there or not. As far as salary goes, that's relatively straightforward for us because we publish the ranges when we put the job position up and the ranges are relatively narrow and we stick to them. We are very transparent internally with what our structure is and how we approach these things and to be very direct, the delta between the highest and lowest paid employee is smaller than people would expect. MANDO: I've got a question about salary ranges. I have a hard time understanding what good reasons a company might have for not making their pay scales and salary ranges transparent, at least within the company. I've worked at several places where if you're lucky, your manager may know what the salary ranges are, but as an individual contributor, you're not supposed to find out and I have a hard time coming up. Are there any good reasons why, other than exploitation? COREY: There are a bunch of bad reasons, but not many good ones, but here's one that we can try on for size. If you and I have the same job and we work at the same company and I discover that you make $20,000 more than I do, there are a few different ways that I can react. I can get angry at the company, which is not generally constructive in that context. I can ask what I would need to do to get to a similar level of compensation. If I want to be nosy, I can start digging into well, why do you get more? And there are a bunch of answers to that. Maybe you've been doing this for a longer and a better experience. Maybe you have a skillset that was challenging. Maybe it's competitive bid situation. Maybe it's an accident of fate. Maybe you asked for it and I didn't. But there is a very common mode where now that I know that you're making $20,000 more than I am, I'm going to be a shit heel to you. I am going to hold it against you personally, because I'm envious and jealous and instead of asking how I can get up to your level, my immediate response is how to drag you down to mine. That can be a subtle and pernicious thing and if I look like I do and you don't, then that manifests in a whole bunch of other ways that are reinforced by systemic biases and as a result, it winds up impacting some of the folks that that transparency would be designed to help. That is one expression of a good reason. Is that outweighed otherwise? I don't know. I really don't. We speak in generalities and total budget. We don't disclose individual's compensation internally because that is not – MANDO: True. COREY: Again, it's a weird thing if I tell your coworker how much you make and then they're mad at you. Same type of problem. We strive very hard not to have that culture and I don't believe that we do, but I'm not willing to risk someone's psychological safety on that. MANDO: Yeah, no, I get that. I think in my experience, it's been a little more, I can't find out what the top and bottom band is for this role, unless I have people working for me in those roles and that's where, at least for me, it makes it difficult to understand why that's the case. It's hard to talk to people who you're managing about moving in different directions, moving possibly to other areas of the company, or even up and down the ladder without being able to say, “Here are the numbers that you could be looking at.” COREY: I'm also coming at this from a different/possibly privileged position where we do not offer equity in The Duckbill Group. The way we're structured, it doesn't support that. We're a services company that does not have anything approaching an exit strategy. I'm not looking sell the company to the very types of companies I energetically and enthusiastically insult. So we're not offering the brass ring of equity because there's no expectation of ever turn into anything. Instead, we offer cash comp and we have a bonus structure that is tied to what the company does. It becomes very easy for you to look at what we're doing and if you're toying with a role here, we have those conversations and figure out what your compensation is going to look like. Is it comparable to Netflix pay? Of course not. They pay top of market and tend to, but that's okay. We also don't have you on edge every day, wondering if you're about to get fired. So there are benefits to the way we approach things. There are drawbacks as well. Again, it's different people want different things and that's okay. At a company that has a significant equity component to compensation, that usually is removed entirely from transparency in compensation, unless you're a named executive. How many shares have you been granted? Are there options? What was the strike price? How is the vesting work? Did you come aboard as part of an acquihire? In which case, there was a very distinct compensation structure, that was almost certainly set up for you, that does not apply to other people. Do you have a particular rare skillset that was incredibly valuable? Let's be direct here, is your cousin the CEO of a target customer and having you there has that nice, quiet benefit that no one is ever going to dare whisper out loud? There are a whole bunch of reasons that compensation will vary, that companies don't necessarily want to explain to each other. When I worked at an agency consultancy, they would periodically have a consultant/engineer who would discover one day that the company was billing it out for roughly twice what they were being paid, which is a fairly standard and reasonable structure given the overhead cost, and they would be incensed by this because well, sales and marketing, how hard could that be? I should just go direct and wind up making all that extra margin myself. It is never that simple. If you can do it, good luck. It's a near certainty you can't because no one can, not at any step and that's scale. There is the lack of maturity that is understood, or not understood by folks you're dealing with and especially as you grow beyond a certain size, you can't expect everyone you're talking to in your company that you hire, or potentially hiring to come in with that level of maturity. So it's far easier just to avoid the topic altogether and then of course, there's a nefarious thing if we want to see how much we can rip people off. I have a hard time accepting that as being a genuine reaction, because for example, from a company perspective, the difference of a $10,000 or $20,000 to make someone happy versus angry, your payroll costs at a certain point of scale is never going to notice or feel that you don't want to waste money. But if that's all it takes to make someone happy, why wouldn't you spend it? MANDO: Has anyone here worked at a place where payroll numbers accidentally got sent out to the entire company, or is that just me? TIM: I have not worked at a place like that, but I wish that had happened. MANDO: It happened to me super early on in my career. I've been doing this professionally for maybe 2, or 3 years and it was a small little dev shop here in Austin and it was, you had your classic accidental reply all situation from whoever's in charge of keeping the books and the next day, like 8 people out of the 30 who worked there just walked out. It was kind of bad and ugly, yeah. COREY: One of the things that I find the most interesting about that type of story is that when those things come out and half the company is in flames over it, this was preventable. When we started The Duckbill Group, we did the exact same thing. We have always operated in such a way that if our internal documents and chats and everything else were to become public, there would be some missing context we'd have to fill in, but there's no one that would, or at least no one who has understanding of the relevant issues would look at this and say, “Well, that's just not fair, or just.” That even goes down to our pricing structure with our clients. Like we don't disclose what our margins are on certain things, but if they were to see that they would look at that, understand the value of that process of how we got to those price points and say, “Yes, that is fair.” That has always been our objective and it's one of those if you act as if it's going to be made public, it turns out that no one can really hold things over anymore, which is interesting because given the nature of what we do with AWS bills, confidentiality is super important. It's critical because some of our largest customers do not let us admit to anyone that they are in fact, our customers and I get that; there's a strong sensitivity around that. Other customers are, “Yeah, by all means, please talk about us all you want. Put us on the website.” I mean, the New York Times mentioned that Epic Games, Ticketmaster, and The Washington Post were customers of ours. Yes, we have logo rights. We are very clear in whether or not we're allowed to talk about folks publicly. It's great. We love our customers, but what are the tricks to getting there incidentally is if you don't respect a company's business, you probably shouldn't do business with them. We're not sitting here making massive value judgements about various companies that we look at. But when it's one of those, you make landmines, not so much. Whereas, I noticed, I was like, “Okay, you’re ad tech, do I love it? Not usually, but I also understand how the world works. It's fine. Don't worry about it.” Unless, you're into truly egregious territory, there's never one of those, “Do we work with them or don't we work with them?” The “Do we work with them or don't we work with them?” question honestly distills down to, “Can we actually help them get to where they need to go/think they need to go and is it the right thing for them?” If the answer that's no, then all we're going to do is have an unhappy customer story out there in the world. We don't want that. It's not that hard to act ethically, as it turns out. REIN: There is an interesting contrast between Corey, your story about salary disclosure and Mando's, which is you made the point of that it could be in your employee's best interest to not disclose. I don't think you're lying, but I bet if you had asked Mando's company's executives, they could have very well may have given the exact same story. The thing that, I think is difficult is when you have to trust in the benevolence of capitalists to figure this thing out. COREY: Absolutely and from my perspective, again, I have this position that I'm coming from, which is, I assume good faith. From my position, if our salary compensation numbers were to be exposed internally, the external is a whole separate thing. Because honestly, if there's a certain implicit expectation of privacy, if you work at my company and suddenly without warning you, I tell the world how much you're being paid. That's not necessarily a situation you would be thrilled to find yourself in. So let's remove that from the table entirely. When we speak internally about what you're making, I have always operated with the expectation that you will exercise, in the US, your federally protected to discuss your compensation with your coworkers, because not discussing your compensation with your coworkers only really helps those capitalists, as you put it, who run companies themselves. If I want to exploit people, yes. Step one, make sure that they're all scared to talk about how much they're making with each other. That doesn't align with anything I ever want to see myself doing. So from my perspective, why would I not disclose salary information? The only reason I can think of that would really matter is that, does it make it harder either first, most importantly, for my employees to operate as they want to operate and two, does it do any harm to my business in any meaningful way and that is a nuanced and challenging thing to figure out. I don't know the answer is the short response to it. I don't think there'd be anything necessarily good that would accelerate my business if we're suddenly talking about compensation numbers publicly. I don't know that necessarily anything bad would happen either, but it's not the story that I want people telling about the company. We're small. We don't have a marketing budget. We have a spite budget. So when people bring us up, I don't want it to be in the context of compensating employees. I want it to be in the context of fixing the AWS bills since that's the thing that lets us compensate those employees, [laughs] It's a fun and interesting nuanced issue and it's easy to take a singular position from all of the different stakeholders that are involved in something like that and make strong pro, or con arguments from that person's position. But one of the weird things about running a company that I discovered is you have to put yourself in multiple shoes simultaneously all the time, where you have to weigh the opinions and perspectives of various stakeholders. You ask someone in engineering what they think we should be focusing on strategically, the answer is probably going to align around engineering, but is engineering going to align with what the company needs to do? If you're getting no sales coming in, is engineering going to be the way you fix that? Maybe not. Maybe you invest in marketing or sales as a result and it's always about trade-offs and no one's perfectly happy with what you decide. The world is complicated and for better or worse, one of the bad tendencies of Twitter is to distill these principles down to pithy soundbites that fit 280 characters and the world doesn't lend itself to that. REIN: Okay. Let's try to distill this down into a pithy soundbite. COREY: By all means. REIN: No, I was just kidding. COREY: And I'm sure someone's going to be pithed. It'll be fine. MANDO: Hey! TIM: I was waiting. Took longer than I expected. [laughter] COREY: Latency. REIN: What's the most important thing in comedy? TIM: It's timing. COREY: Timing. REIN: Timing! [laughter] It’s easier to love that joke in-person. TIM: It is. COREY: Or if you’re going to put that in, just make sure you insert a bunch of time before audio engineer can wind up doing that. [laughter] TIM: Right. I was going to ask if an audio engineer can actually make that joke funny, or is that? [laughter] COREY: Yeah. Or it’ll just come off as corny. So many jokes work super well when you deliver them in-person or face-to-face with a small group, but then you deliver into, to an audience of 5,000 people and they fall completely flat because the energy is different. That observation right there is why so many corporate keynotes are full of jokes that bomb horribly, because with the 20 people who were in there and have context and nuance, it's great in the rehearsal, but then you have a bunch of people and it just feels lame. TIM: Yeah, I thought the corporate keynote jokes, they failed because the 20-person focus group was a bunch of sycophants ready to laugh at anything they said. Whereas, the audience, maybe not so much. COREY: Yes. Do you end up with the entire executive committee watching it? They're just a bunch of yes men and the one token yes woman, but diversity is important to them. Just look at their website. No, no, the point that makes the statement about diversity being important, not the pictures of their team. MANDO: That part. One of my favorite speakers in the technical circuit is Aaron Patterson and I think part of the reason why I love his delivery so much is that he himself personally laughs at all his jokes. Like it really [laughs] like he cracks himself up and so you just can't help, but get pulled along with him. COREY: I find that most of my jokes that I put in my talks and whatnot are for me, because without it, I get bored and I lose interest and have other people come along for the joke, great. And if not, well, that's okay, I'm still laughing. MANDO: [laughs] Yeah. TIM: So Corey that I have a question that I had wondered and then never got to ask out loud. But seeing as how, although we pretty much knew that Andy Jassy was going to be the new CEO of Amazon, would obviously need someone to replace him at AWS. What would you say to the AWS recruiter when they offered you the job and why? COREY: Directly, that would be one of the most thankless jobs I can possibly imagine for the way I see the world and how that job has to be done, in all seriousness. It is the ultimate expression of responsibility without the ability to directly impact an outcome. You will have to delegate absolutely everything and it's paradoxical, but the higher you rise in a role like that, the less you're able to say. Every time Jeff Bezos makes a comment in public, it hits the news. He doesn't get to go effectively shitposting on Twitter. How Elon Musk manages to do it, couldn't tell you, but his random jokes move markets and that's why he's constantly in trouble with the SEC. The reason that I enjoy the latitude and the freedom that I do is that I am functionally, a nobody and that's okay. As soon as I start becoming someone who is under global public scrutiny, then that entire thing becomes incredibly misaligned. Every time there's a controversy or a scandal, I would never be allowed to sit down and be directly and completely honest about what I think about those things because you can't in those roles. These things are always nuanced and public messaging is a problem. I do firmly believe. For example, the reason I don't weigh in very often on a lot of the labor relations issues, for example, that Amazon winds up finding itself confronted with is, I believe firmly that there is a choice that I get to make as part of my expression of privilege. Here, I can be part of the mob on Twitter, yelling at them over these things, or I can have conversations directly with people who you are in a much better position to influence these things internally. I do not believe you can do both, simultaneously. We pick and choose our battles sometimes and I can't wind up going off about every outrage, real, or perceived, that accompany does, or I simply look like an endless litany of complaints. You have to find the things that make an impact and there's always a price to that. An example of a fight that I do go to bat for is Amazon's position on non-competes for their employees and their decision to pursue them after they leave Amazon. I think it has beneath them, I think it makes the entire industry poorer for it, and it's one of the areas in which I do not respect Amazon's position, full stop. Their employees are better than that and deserve more. That's an issue that I feel profoundly about and I'm willing to go to the mat on that one, but when I do it, it comes with a price. It makes them look at me like a little bit of a, “Oh, is he going to be one of those?” whatever those happen to be and maybe. There's a reason I don't bring it up casually. There's a reason I don't drag them with that in casual joke threads, but it's there and that's what one of those issues I'm willing to be known for. Now, labor organizing and the rest. There's an entire universe of people paying better attention to a segment of their business that I don't talk about, or know about and who are well-suited to lead a public opinion, to have conversations internally. I don't know about a lot of those things and this is why I've never cut out to be a VC either, by the way, where when I don't know something, I don't feel that I should be sounding off about that thing on Twitter. Apparently, that is not normal in D.C. land, but here we are. The beautiful part about being me is that I'm fundamentally in possession of a platform I can use to broadcast every harebrained idea that crosses my mind out to an audience to test it. So I don't feel constrained in what I can say. In fact, that's the reason that I am what I am is that no one can fire me. I'm an AWS customer, but I have no client that is a significant percentage of our revenue base, which means I can't get fired. The only real risk is something either systemic that happens globally, in which case, all bets are off, or we're at a scenario where I have surprise, become a secret dumpster goblin and no one is going to want to do business with me anymore and everyone abandons me. But that doesn't seem likely because that is not my failure mode. REIN: Do you know what your failure mode is? COREY: Oh, absolutely. I sometimes, as I mentioned, go too far. I find that things that are funny, just wind up being mean at times. A joke wasn't that great there. I mean, my entire company is fundamentally built around aspects of my own failures. I am possessed of a profound case of ADHD that manifests in a bunch of interesting ways. A lot of the company is functionally scaffolding around me and picking up the things that I am not good at and will not be successful at if left to my own devices. I feel bad about it on some level, but on the other, it frees me up to do the things I am great at. It's an area of being able to take the things that make me, for better or worse, borderline unique and really focus on those because I don't have to continue to wrestle with things like making sure that JIRA tickets get done for us to use an example from my engineering days. We tend to have this bias when hiring people to optimize for hiring folks who have no weaknesses rather than hiring for strengths. Yeah, there are a lot of things I'm crap at, but I'd rather be very, very good at the subset of things that are intensely valuable and that means that okay, maybe someone else can handle making sure my expense report gets filed, if you want to use a banal example. REIN: One of the first things that you talked about was sometimes to improve the way a customer uses AWS; they have to spend more money in one area rather than less. There's an interesting property of systems, which is that you can't improve a system just by making each individual part better and actually, sometimes you have to make some parts worse to make the system better. So I'm hearing a little bit of that here as well, which is you want to build a system that works well and takes advantage of the parts that you have, the people you have, their relationships, their strengths, how they work together, and you're not interested in everyone having to be perfect. You're okay with parts that work in different ways and accounting for that and focus. So the other thing is that a system is not the sum of its parts. It's the product of its interactions and what I'm getting is that you care about those interactions. COREY: Very much so. It's hard to build things in isolation. It's hard to wind up treating everyone as interchangeable components that you can shuffle up and have them do different things. You don't want to know what would happen if you put me in charge of accounting, for example. There's this also this idea as well that is endemic, particularly to the world of developers and software engineers in the context of – I saw this most prominently with a number of professors in my first job, as a Unix systems administrator at a university, where I have a Ph.D., I am a world leading expert in this very narrow field of knowledge and I am brilliant in it, which means I'm very good at everything else, too, ha, Getting the computer to work. Oh, they don't even offer Ph.Ds. in that so how hard could it really be? This idea that, “Oh, I am terrific at this one very valuable, highly advanced skill; I should be good at everything else.” Well, not really. It doesn't work that way and is there even value in you learning that particular skill? Let's use an example that's germane to what we're doing right now. When I record podcasts, I'm good at having the conversations. I'm good at making the word noises come out of my mouth to varying degrees of good and then we're done with the recording and what tends to happen next? Well, it has to get edited, put together, and the rest, and I don't know how to do that. Now, do I go and spend a year learning how audio engineering works and then spend my time doing the audio engineering piece, or do I find someone who lives in that world, who loves it, who they are great at it, and they want to do it and they want to do it more and wind-up paying people for their expertise and let them come out with a far better product than I'm ever going to be able to deliver? If it doesn't need to be me doing a thing, I might want to tag someone else in to do it instead. That's the art of delegation and increasingly, I have to be more and more comfortable with letting more and more things go as our company continues to grow. It's a hard lesson to learn. I mean, the biggest challenge of running a business bar, none, I don't care what anyone else tells you, it's always the same and it is managing your own psychology. ARTY: So you mentioned earlier with you were talking about psychological safety and people being able to give you feedback about when their feelings were hurt, or things that are challenging to talk about. What factors do you think contribute to your approachability when you have the stance of being this kind of snarky identity? What makes you approachable still? COREY: I think it's that when I get it wrong, I'm very vocal at apologizing. Let me use an example of the time I got it spectacularly wrong. A while back, I did a parody video of Hitler Reacts, the Downfall parody thing that everyone's doing and it was Hitler receives his AWS bill was my entire shtick. I did a whole dialogue thing for it, as one does. There's generators for it—this was not an artistic endeavor whatsoever—and one line I have in there is one woman turns to the other and says, “Yeah, I get gigabytes and terabytes confused, too,” and it goes on. People started liking it on Twitter and I went to bed. The next day, I get a message from someone that a number of women were having a thread somewhere else that they thought it was offensive because that was the only speaking line women had and it was admitting that math is hard, more or less and when I heard that my response was, “Holy shit.” I took the video down and did a whole thread about here's how I fucked up and some people were saying, “Oh, it wasn't that big of a deal. It's fine.” You are wrong. I'm sorry. People felt shitty because of what I said and that's not okay and just deleting it, or not talking about it again is a response, but it's not an instructive one and what I did ideally, will help people avoid making similar mistakes in the future. Again, this stuff is not easy. We're all learning. I've made jokes when I was – if I go back in time 10 years, I made a whole bunch of jokes and had a sense of humor of now I look back and I am very honestly ashamed of them and I'm not talking about things that the kind of joke we have to look over your shoulders before you tell anyone to make sure that someone doesn't look like you isn't within earshot. No, I'm just talking about shitty jokes that punch down. I don't make those jokes anymore because guess what? They're just not that funny and that's important. We all evolve. So that's part of it is I vocally critical of myself when I get it wrong. I also have DMs open for this specific reason. Again, I am not in the demographic people going to harass me by a DM. Not everyone has that privilege so people can reach out to me when they think I get something wrong, or they just want to talk and I view confidentiality as sacrosanct. If someone says that wasn't funny, I always thank them first off and then I try and dig deeper into what it is that they're saying. If someone says it on Twitter, because they don't feel that a call-in is warranted—no one knows you would call-in—a callout is fine, too. I try to engage in the same behavior just because if nothing else, I can set an example. I don't know if people feel they have a sense of psychological safety in approaching me, to be perfectly honest. No one knows their own reputation. But the fact that people continue to and I have never once broken the faith and thrown someone out under a bus publicly, or even mentioned who they were without their permission first, that's powerful and I hope anyway. I mean, again, no one knows their own reputation. For all I know, there are whisper networks out there that are convinced that I'm a complete piece of crap and if that's true, I'm not going to inherently say that they're wrong. I would be honored if someone would tell me and would let me know what I'm doing that has caused that opinion to form, because if possible, I'd like to fix it. If not, I at least want to hear the perspective. But feedback is an opinion and not everyone's opinion carries equal weight and I don't agree with everyone's opinion, but I would like to know how I'm being perceived. The biggest problem I get is with all the podcasts, with all of the tweets, with all of the newsletters, that most common response by landslide is silence. There are days I wonder I remember to turn the microphone on. There are other days where oh, I get emails and I love those days because I at least get to learn how I'm coming across. ARTY: I can imagine just seeing someone having a history of admitting when they make a mistake and trying to correct it and fixing it, turning you into someone that if you have feedback that feeling like you'd be heard, that your feedback would be listened to and taken seriously, I can see that really making a difference. I also really appreciate you modeling that kind of behavior, too because I think it is important. We are human. We make mistakes and having models to follow of what it looks like to be confident enough in ourselves that we can screw up publicly, I think is really important. COREY: I have the privilege and audience and at least apparently public reputation to be allowed to fail, to be allowed to mess these things up and if I can't own those things that I get wrong and what's the point, really. The honest way that I feel about all of this is I just recently crossed 50,000 Twitter followers, which is a weird, trippy, and humbling experience. But if I can't use that vast audience to help people, then what the fuck was the point of it all? Why did I do it? It's not just for my own self-aggrandizement, or trying to sell consulting projects. If I can't leave a little bit of a dent in the universe in the sense of helping people become better than they are then what was the point? Spoiler, the answer to what was the point never starts with a dollar sign. REIN: What do you think is the point? COREY: I think it has to be different for other folks. For me, the point has always been about helping people and I have a sense of indebtedness that I have my entire career because early on in my career and consistently throughout, people have done me favors and there's no way for me to repay them for the kindness that they have shown and the help that they've given. All you can ever do is pay it forward. But I help people with an introduction. It doesn't take much from me. You two people have problems that would be a solved by having an introduction between the two of you? Wonderful. Go ahead and talk. Let me know how I can help and it costs me nothing and when people are like, “How can I thank you for this?” Help someone else. It's always the same answer. It's a someday, you're going to be in a position to help someone else, do it. Don't think about how it's going to come back and help you. Maybe I will, maybe it won't. Cosmically, I found it always does somehow, but again, you don't have to take that on faith. Just assume it doesn't help you in the least. The more you help people, the more you wind up doing favors for people, the more it comes back around and that is something that opens up a tremendous level of, I guess, leverage. I guess, it makes sense of being able to make a difference in the world. Now, please, don't misunderstand what I've just said as, “Oh, you should do a bunch of uncompensated work for anyone who demands a moment of your time.” That's not what I'm talking about. I'm not suggesting you let people take advantage of you, but when you find someone who's struggling at something that you know would approach it, it really doesn't cost you much to reach out and ask if they need a hand. ARTY: That seems like a good note to switch to reflections. REIN: I think that's great. I was thinking about Corey, how you look at mistakes as opportunities to get better, not just for yourself, but also for how you participate in communities that matter to you. One of the interesting things about systems is that systems derive their purpose from how they relate to larger systems. So an engine drives its purpose from how it relates to the other parts of the car. If you take the engine out of the car, the car doesn't move, but neither does the engine. So I think that the best communities, whether they're basketball teams, or software development teams, whatever they are, are communities that make each person better and that we derive our purpose and our meaning from our relationship with other people. TIM: I can offer my reflection on this. I've often been either disappointed with, or very impressed by people's ability to learn about themselves and about the impact that they have on the world. I have observed in Corey and have been inspired to do self-optimization, where I have a course of action or behavior, or a line of thinking or reasoning presented into the ether and then based upon the feedback in whatever other means of observability, I amend and iterate on myself to become better. Never perfect—perfect is the enemy of good—but just to be better, to be continually improving. If I were going to find a term to describe Corey and the term that I would ascribe to myself to become a human optimist. I think if we take some of those examples that Corey has discussed and apply them, we can all reach that point to where we'll always know that there's always ways to improve and if we listen to those around us and we study the impact that we have on those people that we can do that. ARTY: It's been interesting listening to you talk and have this description of you in my head of this kind plus snarky being and what does that look like. One of the things I've seen you model repeatedly as I've listened to you talk is holding yourself accountable. In one context, being able to take in one-on-one reflections from other people and really take it in and think about what people say. But two, also taking responsibility for how other people see you and your position in the world and how those things you do end up affecting other people. So, I really appreciate your

Improving movement options is legit, but at what cost? We know that this breathing stuff works, but are there drawbacks to this approach? Can we really make the changes “stick?” These are a few of the many problems that Dr. Tim Richardt and I sift through, in a podcast where the script is flipped and Tim interviews me. In this podcast, you'll learn: How I structure my own training What's better, time management or energy management? Forget following your passion, focus on this instead What my biggest failure was and what it taught me? The dichotomy of the type A personality Movement behaviors: How do we get them to "stick" The dark side of internal cueing The best way to communicate effectively to clients and more! Is there a darkside to all this movement stuff? Is there a better way? Look here to watch the interview, listen to the podcast, get the show notes, and read the modified transcripts. Learn more about Tim Tim Richardt is a Doctor of Physical Therapy, Strength and Conditioning Coach, and Owner of Richardt Performance and Rehabilitation located in Denver, CO. He specializes in the treatment and preparation of humans that like to run, lift, or play in the mountains. He currently offers personal training, physical therapy, and professional mentorship services. His website More Train, Less Pain Podcast – Tim's podcast that is specifically designed around engineering the adaptable athlete. Instagram: @Tim_Richardt_dpt Show notes Here are links to things mentioned in the interview: Elevate Sports Performance and Healthcare - Where ya boi works Francis Hoare - An excellent coach who works with me at Elevate. How to Fail at Almost Everything and Still Win Big by Scott Adams - One of my favorite books. This book taught me to emphasize systems over goals Millionaire Fastlane by Mj DeMarco - This book completely flipped all that I know about business upside down. Unscripted by MJ DeMarco - This book will keep you pushing forward in all things business Extreme Ownership by Jocko Willink - A book that helped me take ownership of all my own problems. The Obstacle is the Way by Ryan Holiday - If you are going through a tough time, this read is essential. The Ego is the Enemy by Ryan Holiday - This book will help squash any ego issues you may have The Subtle Art of Not Giving A Fuck - Basically modern Buddhism. A must-read Everything is Fucked: A Book About Hope - Why hope is BS and how to start a religion. It's an awesome book. Aline Thompson - One of the best PTs in the Denver area. Georgie Fear - My incredible nutrition coach. A master at behavior change Lorimer Moseley - One of the best pain researchers in existence. David Grey - An excellent physio Gary Ward - All things foot, he's the guy Seth Oberst - One of the best at all things trauma-related from a movement perspective. I reviewed his course here. Michelle Boland - Coach Bo. One of the best coaches in da game. I reviewed her course here. Boo Schexnayder: Rehab Insights from Track and Field - This podcast made me appreciate intensity and its importance How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie - The OG book on interacting with others. The Truth Detector by Jack Schafer - An awesome read on elicitation and interaction with others. Bill Hartman - Daddy-O Pops himself. My mentor. Modified Transcripts How I structure training Tim: So, my man, I thought we could start with your own training. And I'm wondering if you could describe the last workout that you personally did? Zac: Well, that would have been yesterday. I train mostly at night after work. Yesterday, it was chin-up day. I start with vision exercises because I did some vision therapy, so I'm just trying to maintain the visual skills that I currently struggle with, which is the ability to diverge. So, divergence is the eyes moving apart. You basically stretch them out, which is kind of like external rotation of the eyes, if you can think about that way, which is expansion. And guess who doesn't have that? Ya boy, same thing with everyone else. So, I do some moves to work on divergence, but then focusing within the divergence, which is accommodation. I spent a few minutes doing that. And then my warmup, I kind of do the same thing. I just roll around on the ground for a while, do just a few moves to - yes, I just literally - they were finishing class at Elevate and Francis is like, "Don't worry about the Ninja who works here in the background." Which was funny. So, just warm-up and then... Tim: Just some spinning flying kicks? Zac: Yes. Something like that. Tim: Yes. Like three sets of five...? Zac: Nunchucks. Tim: Sure. Zac: Yes. Tim: Yes, of course. I saw those in your office. Zac: Yes. Tim: I was going to ask about that. Zac: Once I do that, then I do my main move for the day, which yesterday involved post-activation potentiation combo. So, I'll do med ball throws up against the wall, rotational-style, and then chin-ups with some weight. I did these in the 3-6 rep range until I can't do that anymore. And then I ended up doing a trap bar squat and overhead press. https://youtu.be/CJgcqP_X8jM And then I usually do like a circuit of some - like something single leg. I did like a single-leg squat off a box. I do pushups. I do one-arm dumbbell row. And then, like the body saw. I did a circuit of that with just, you know, whatever reps I need. https://youtu.be/uBRYEyebmAY And then sometimes I'll follow with conditioning. But I did my favorite conditioning yesterday, which is kicking my man Francis ass and spike ball. Boom! You heard it internet. We usually play spike ball once a week and we have some good competition. We both have gotten pretty good. We did this thing where we were just playing Spikeball one on one for months because we both sucked. Tim: Sure? Zac: We didn't tell anyone. Tim: One on one spike ball? Zac: Yes. It's weird, but it's fun. And so, Francis was killing me and I can't have that happen because I hate losing in all things. So, I'm like consuming YouTube videos and figuring out how to serve. And so, now I can serve with both hands... Tim: Walking around with the spike balk all the time and go for it? Zac: Yes. And so, now we have some great games and we're just like hitting it way good. And we finally played two on two, not together, but it was way more competitive than we ever did. So, that was the skill that I learned. And that was my training session. Tim: How do you think kind of in the macro about structuring your own training? Like, do you have short, medium long-term training goals, and you kind of period eyes to accomplish those? Or are you more like a fly by the seat of your pants kind of guy? Zac: I have my main moves that I alternate between. So, what stays the same, and I got this, it's the mass effect program from Daddy-o Pops himself, Bill Hartman, just with some slight modifications. It looks like this: Lift one: 4-6 reps Lift 2: 6-8 reps Lift3: 10-12 You do each of these until you fatigue out of those rep ranges. And then I just do, you know, two to three rounds of whatever else I feel like I need, which can be like eight to 12 reps. And if there's a day I need to condition, I'll do that. If I want to do some extra arm farm, I do that. So, the three mains are there. I keep trying to get better at them. But the other stuff just varies depending on what I'm feeling. Because my main goal training-wise is just to look good naked. Tim: Okay. Zac: And maintain decent body comp. Tim: No, more fat Zac? Zac: Yes. Fat Zac is done. Tim: Fat Zac's not coming back? Zac: He's done. Tim: That guy was fun though. Zac: He was fun. Yes. He had the beard. He is like a young Santa. Tim: Couldn't touch his toes. Zac: Yes. Definitely couldn't squat. I still can't touch my toes, but I can squat now. So yes. And then like, you mentioned like periodization, I need to train enough that someone can take me seriously from a movement standpoint. It's kind of like looking the part when you're being a PT because I do think that that matters to some extent. https://youtu.be/UEZZEWyBN78 Tim: Yes. Zac: But right now, the highest priority is work, teaching, all that stuff, learning the craft. And so, that's always going to be the A1 for right now. Tim: The A1 of life. Yes. A2 is fitness. Time management vs energy management Tim: You gifted me a Scott Adams book about five or six months ago. In it, he talks a lot about this myth of time management and argues that time isn't necessarily the resource that we should be seeking to manage, but it's instead energy. And that in managing your own energy and taking on projects that seem to give you energy rather than drain them or tackling endeavors that seem to increase energy, you can get a lot more done versus just trying to very efficiently kind of micromanage your own time. So, you're one of the most kind of efficient, effective, prolific people that I personally know within our field. What do you think about this energy management concept? Is that something that kind of lets you do the amount of work that you do? Zac: It's very easy to waste time on frivolous things and I try to do my best to minimize that now. But I think because I have a little bit more freedom to do that now. I can, I think, for example, a couple of years ago I had the shackles of student loans, so it's like, I'll take on anything I can do to try to manage that. But I do think about that when I'm thinking about things that don't bring joy into my life, like social media, for example. Tim: Sure. Zac: I try to stay off that as much as humanly possible. Because it does take energy, even answering texts. Like I'm horrendous about getting back to people via text message or phone calls because I eliminated notifications on that. Because even that takes energy out. Tim: Yes. Zac: Even being around certain people who suck the life out of you... Tim: Exactly the black hole type of thing? Zac: Yes. But at the same time, I do think time management to some extent is important as well because, sometimes you might have to do things that are energy-draining, but they help move the needle forward. Does he talk about following your passion as well and how that's BS? Tim: Yes. Zac: Okay. Tim: And I've probably had that conversation with like 10 people over the past week that like passion is fleeting. It's, you know, rocket fuel, but it's not actually going to sustain you over the longer. It opposes a lot of advice that you conventionally hear. Zac: Yes. Well, what you have to do and there's another good guy you should read it. I might have an extra book. I'll give it to you. MJ DeMarco. He wrote "The Millionaire Fast Lane" and "Unscripted." He talks about that as well in the sense that you don't want to do things that you're passionate about. You want to do things that are going to have a positive impact on the world and change things forever. And then if you do that and you make enough money from that, you eventually will become passionate about it becauseyou're making an impact. Tim: Yes. Zac: I love video games, but I'm not going to be making money, playing video games unless I started... Tim: I was thinking about Twitch and Onlyfans. And I'm like, is there a way to combine those concepts and maybe have people pay you to watch you play video games in a reduced amount of clothing? Zac: Haha right? But even with that, sure, you can make money, but Twitch is not going to change the world. Tim: Sure. Zac: And I want to try to make the little world that I'm in, that we're in, a better place in that sense. And that's really the crux of what I do. That's why I try to take complex things and simplify them so most people can carry it out. I have a lot of good friends who are really smart, but they might not be able to devote the time and energy to diving deep into topics because maybe they got kids to worry about and all this stuff and well, they still patients to take care of. Tim: Yes. Zac: And so, if I can help that person get better a little bit faster, then I think we all win. Tim: I mean, and is doing that something that you find gives you more energy than it drains or drains kind of a minimal amount of energy? Zac: Yes, absolutely. I could teach, talk all the time. I love that. Even doing these podcasts. It's so much fun and then it's just time flies by. Because then it's also, you're just interacting with people and... Tim: Also real-life people. Zac: I know. Right? The failure that changed everything Tim: That's useful. I think along the same lines of that book, it's in the title that he's amassed a massive amount of failures and yet still is an extraordinary success. Thinking about kind of your own life professionally in the past five or 10 years, what are some of your favorite failures? Zac: Professional basketball. The thing that I had going into that was getting to pro basketball kind of a big deal. And I probably let that get to my head a little bit. I think I had a little bit of a Dunning-Kruger effect kicking in. Even though like I still would say back then, I was a pretty good practitioner. I'm much better now. But I think I let that get the best of me that I was in that setting. I can't say that that's why I was fired, but after that happened, it completely flipped everything. I did a lot of soulsearching during that time period. And there were four books that I read that just like changed everything. Tim: I bet I know one of them. Zac: Which one? Tim: "Extreme Ownership." Zac: That was definitely one of them. That was one, "The Obstacles is the Way," "Ego is the Enemy” both by Ryan Holiday and then "The Subtle Art of not Giving a Fuck." by Mark Manson. I read those four and that's when I realized my behaviors, my issues were the problem. And I was able to do things to flip that and just be more humble, reacquire the beginner's mindset, interact better with peers and people who I'm working with. And it really made a big difference. And I'm grateful for that. I'm grateful that I was out of that situation. It pushed me towards more of what I really like, which is this. And the fact that now I have a bit more freedom flexibility than I did in the league, was huge. That's probably the biggest failure that has flipped things for me. [caption id="attachment_13675" align="aligncenter" width="375"] the failure that led to this[/caption] Tim: Going back to something that we discussed, like removing things in your life that are not really serving you. The hard truth is those are people and probably people that you've known a really long time. And you know, If you can't kind of reflect back on your own life and make a decision about which people you're spending time with, you're liable to get trapped in a lot of, and trap is probably a strong word, but waste the resource of energy on relationships that aren't getting you to where you want to go. Zac: Is that something that you ever struggled with? When you knew you had to move on from a situation or a person? Tim: Yes. The job I took right out of school being a director of rehab in rural Colorado. That was so nice because it was lucrative. It was flexible. I think I could still do a lot of the things that I wanted to, because it was a three-day work week. In a lot of ways, it was the perfect situation, but it didn't have any upward trajectory to it. I started at the ceiling. I'm immensely grateful that I had that opportunity. And I think it changed me for the better, in many ways. But after my three years and change out there, I knew it was time to do something else. Something that had a little bit more of an avenue for growth. Zac: Yes. It's hard when you get comfortable like that because the chance of getting stagnant is significantly higher. And so, you always got to put yourself in slightly uncomfortable positions, I think, to really grow. Tim: Yes. It's a really interesting juxtaposition. I mean, that's something I think about all the time that type A people, kind of people like you and I, a lot of what drives us is we're not happy with the way things are. But if you let that mindset pervade everything, then you never really enjoy what you have. So, it's a really interesting tight rope to balance kind of, as physical therapists, as athletes, as human beings, how do we hold these two seemingly opposing ideas in our head simultaneously and not kind of fall apart? Zac: Yes. That's hard. Tim: Yes. Zac: I definitely let that bleed into areas that it shouldn't bleed into. Tim: Yes. Some things in life are just fine and they're okay the way they are. They don't need to be optimized. Zac: Yes. There are some things too that you got to just keep pushing. Tim: Absolutely. I mean, that's how people do great things. You're not going to just get this great opportunity kind of plopped in your lab. Zac: How do you find the balance? You probably are better than me. Tim: I don't know. I don't think I have a really good answer. I was talking to a mutual friend that we have, Aline Thompson. She was mentioning this friend that she has an incredibly high-powered tech broker of some type, makes boatloads of money. But he's a really, really good chef. And he says that the second he no longer has time to cook each day, that's the line in the sand that he draws between. That means he's striving too much. That means he's packing so much into his day that he can't just enjoy what he already has, which is quality time doing something good for himself, for his family, for his children. That really hit home. I love to cook as well. I also like to play Frisbee with my dog, Molly. If I can't take 10 or 15 minutes to do that like that's another - like I just want that to be built into my day-to-day. And then if I can maintain these things and then continue to strive and see certain life, key performance indicators trending in the right direction, I am doing an okay job. Zac: That's something I probably struggle with because I'm thinking about like, as you were saying that I'm like, "That's brilliant. Like everyone needs to find their cooking." And I don't know what mine is. Tim: I think for a lot of people it's working out. Zac: Yes. Tim: Probably not in our industry, because I think we are the people that will probably sacrifice in order to train and train at very inconvenient times. But I think for 99% of the American population, that's one of the early things to go. Zac: Yes. That's very reasonable. See, I can't fathom not having that. It's so automatic at this point that - there was one time where maybe I didn't work out and I'm like, I'll notice that one day, if I had a plan to workout, I can't do it. But I've never gotten to the point where I've worked so much that I've had to cut that out. Tim: And you do, and it's like a super power. But you go about the rest of your day supercharged, you know that you've done something that's probably more difficult than 90% of the people that you're going to interact with have completed that day. Especially for people like I'm a big morning trainer. Zac: Really? Tim: Yes. I'd love to train at like 6:00 AM or 7:00 AM. And that's recent. That's as I've gotten older, but in terms of the Scott Adams concept of adding energy to your life, it's like, that is something that so acutely drains you of energy and yet so quickly fills you right back up. Zac: Yes. It is interesting how that works. Isn't it? Can we get postural changes to stick? Tim: You and I, both physical therapists, we commonly see people that present with particular movement behaviors or positions. And I think one of the most pervasive ideas in our industry is that there's a bad posture or a bad position. Right? Like extension, anterior, pelvic tilt, rotation. What have you? Zac: Oh sure. Tim: There's this idea that there are these bad postures and people have bad postures and well just swap it out for a good posture and they're going to be good to go. Something you and I have talked about before is these postures positions, movement behaviors emerge in order to solve a particular problem? To manage gravity, to breathe, to better prepare you for a training stressor that you've experienced before. So, I guess how do you think about replacing a less than ideal movement behavior or pattern with a better one, because that's kind of what we do with these resets, with these drills to regain mobility? And how do you think about making that intervention like quote-unquote, "sticky" enough so that a person doesn't revert back as quickly as possible? Zac: I don't think it's replacing one for another. I think the key is giving more options. So, for example, if we go with like the forward head, I'm sitting at the chair for an extended period of time, you do that long enough, something might get cranky just because of tissue ischemia or whatever. At the same time, if you sit perched upright and have a good posture, and you hold that long enough, you could probably run into similar issues. [caption id="attachment_13676" align="aligncenter" width="376"] Cranky AF[/caption] But if you can get into each of those and a bazillion more, well, then you're never really overloading any specific areas. And I think it makes you more adept to surviving in several different environments. And I think really that's the key and that's like, what movement variability is all about is you need as many different ways to perform the task as possible even if you're getting the same consistent output. So, like if I did 10 squats and even though they looked exactly the same to the naked eye, if I have to remove that variability, there should be subtle differences with each one of those squats, but it's when I don't have those options available that problem ensue Tim: In both coordinative and endpoint variability. Zac: Exactly. I think that's really where the money is. Now, how do we get that to stick? It's basically, getting people into positions that they can't normally get into or struggle maintaining into and then being able to demonstrate that at progressive intensities and complexities. So, for example, you know, if we look at you and you know because we worked together for a minute. In the beginning, we started with some simple drills, some single leg positions, more supportive, really emphasized breathing. And look at where you're ay when we worked together the other day. Now we're giving you loaded-based strategies... Tim: Kicking ass, taking in? Zac: Yes, yes. Getting you a ridiculous pump. But the thought process is still there because you have the same needs, but can you maintain the positions that we had you get into that we'll get you those needs under higher intensities? Yesterday he did. Tim: And I like that. It's just it's incredibly intriguing to me, this notion that human beings lose movement options, either via physical structure or secondary training adaptations, lifestyle factors. And then it kind of, and I say this as a physical therapist who makes these changes on a daily basis, it shocks me that anything that we do has the power to override whatever stimulus came before to lead to that decrease in variability. Zac: Yes. Tim: You know what I mean? Zac: Yes. Because you're looking at reps time, all that stuff. Tim: Right. I mean, it's almost to think anything in the gym could actually have that prolonged, have an effect. I mean, it also brings up the issue of in a perfect world. Nobody would need activities to regain movement options. That would be the goal, right? You just walk into the gym and you train and your body adapts to the training with no deleterious secondary consequences. That's obviously not the world that we live in, but it does seem like some people need a far lesser volume of these reset low-level types of activities. And they can kind of progress away from that over time. Whereas some people, for whatever reason, you know, need that consistent manual therapy, stimulus or consistent low-level stimulus in order to make these changes stick. Zac: Yes. Well, I think the key is the body has to deem it meaningful and novel and salient. And I'll give you an example. If let's say, you witnessed something terrible happened, anything. Something of 9/11 proportions and it happened right before your eyes. You would remember that for the rest of your life. And it might be just one moment, one instance. And that could shape and shift everything that you thought before that. And I remember when I listened to Lorimer Moseley, he was talking about - I think my buddy Eric was talking about how taking NSAIDs could impair learning. And Lorimer gave the analogy if someone shot a gun right by you, you would remember that that happened, even if you were dosed up on NSAIDS. Tim: Sure. Zac: Of it's meaningful and novel enough, I think it could still lead to long-lasting changes. Tim: Right. Zac: Right? Now, does that mean the equivalent of you doing quadraped breathing is something like witnessing a horrific event? No. But your body might deem it novel and meaningful enough that it does remember that. And it does stick for some people. Tim: Yes. Zac: So, my point by bringing that up is we just don't know what's going to cause things to stick. Whereas some people might need continual reinforcement over and over and over again to get meaningful change. Tim: Something that, like David Gray and Gary Ward talk about all the time is, essentially that same thing, putting people in positions. But then if the nervous system likes that position, it'll remember that position and there's no need to revisit it as long as that's what it reaches for the next time it tries to solve a particular environmental or movement task. And that kind of makes some sense to me because if we think again about the Genesis of these like maladaptive, postures and positions, they are trying to solve a problem, get air in, maintain your ability to view your monitor while you're sitting in a chair, they don't emerge for no reason. This is a Seth Oberst quote, but everybody's body is doing exactly what it needs to do. The dark side of sensorimotor cueing Tim: What you and I do with people involves a high degree of sensorimotor cueuing, right? Having people maintain particular positions. Do you think that there's a potential dark side to sensorimotor cueuing and that it might put people sort of two in their own bodies if kind of left unchecked? If most of their program is find your heels, tuck your hips, breathe this particular way, shift left. Do you find yourself needing to pull that out at certain times for certain people when you design programs? Zac: Yes. I definitely think there's definitely a certain portion of people who can fall victim to that. Tim: Yes. What are those people typically like? I think I know what you're going to say, but I'm interested. Zac: Yes. They're almost hyper-aware of everything in a negative sense. And then that becomes their identity essentially. I feel twisted. I feel twerked. It's the person who gives me the laundry list of anatomical terminology that they shouldn't know, but they know. That can definitely be a problem because it's almost like when they get so intune to their bodies, but focusing only on the negatives. So, with those people, yes, a lot of it is education "It's no, you do not have to tuck your hips with every step you take every move you make." Tim: Because Zac's going to be watching you. Zac: Yes. In the creepiest way possible. Tim: From a deep squat with a really long beard. [caption id="attachment_13677" align="aligncenter" width="500"] Like a boss![/caption] Zac: Yes. And then just like, no, you don't have to feel your heels all the time when you walk and stuff like that. And it's educating them that, "Look, we're just using this as a strategy to increase your movement repertoire." And yes, I think if you can do that and frame the right mindset that can potentially mitigate some of that. Or I think that could also be where, especially when you get to loaded activities, a focus more towards external queuing might be useful. You know? Tim: I like that. I think something that Michelle Boland, Coach Bo, and I talk about frequently. Shout out to coach Bo. Is the need to have things in a programmer or in your life that just make you feel like you're a strong, capable human that doesn't need to think him or herself into positions to be able to execute a task. All of my practices have always been in CrossFit gyms. And I think that this is something that CrossFit gyms do incredibly well. And no CrossFit gym is perfect. And I have my issues with the moves that are commonly prescribed the over-reliance on barbells, but they do a really good job of getting people that haven't been doing anything intense and getting them to not fear doing a hang snatch, doing a deadlift from the ground. And I think that's really impactful in a completely different way. Because I think people like you and I take into one extreme sort of becoming those clinicians, those practitioners that are really potentially propagating a lot of this like fear of movement. Zac: It's something I definitely think about as well. Because I do get people who come to me and it's like, they've learned similar things to me, but they think about it in such a negative way. Like "I have to fix this anterior tilt." Well, if you're standing against gravity, you're always going to have that because that's the norm. There's a good podcast that Doug Kechijian did with Boo Schexnayder. He mentions that you should always be exposing them to intensity. And in order to produce intensity or move fast, you can't think, and relaxation is paramount. And I think if there's one thing it's probably shifted this year, is really appreciating that. But and here's where I still think respecting biomechanics comes in. You have to make sure that you choose activities that are appropriate for that individual, that they can execute without having the risk for potentially performing it in a negative manner. So, that could be doing a seated box jump, which it's almost like the constraints of the activity, get them into positions that they need to. Or, I've been using a lot of fake throws lately. https://youtu.be/riB-dGofs98 Tim: To load a cut? Zac: To load a cut or just to get them rotating pain-free or anything like that. Because you have to relax enough and move fast, but then you also have to stop fast. So, it kind of hits everything or just med ball throws. Like even though I talk a lot about biomechanics and stuff like that, if you look at how I actually program for someone, it has all of those other elements. And I keep the concepts the same and the progressions appropriate with within movement options that they have available. But they're not always having to think. They might think about the setup, but then when they're executing the movement, I don't have to think about anything. Because when you are thinking you can't move fast, that's when you get beat. Tim: Yes. That's what I like. I mean, one of my favorite lifts of all time is a single-arm dumbbell floor press, for that reason. Because like there's still enough range of motion to load and you can let 98% of people that would ever walk into your training facility can do that drill. https://youtu.be/oGKufR-a4Mg And the single-arm just forces some innate sense of not having the weight, rotate you off your back. T he goblet squats is another one. It's like, it's these things that people in our industry have been doing for a really long time, because they're just so simple and people can try hard, like you said, relax not think. Zac: Yes. Or like sleds, med ball throws, and carries. Those are all - if you have someone who is not exposed to much loading, that's a great way to produce intensity and not have to think "Oh, you know, man, I love machines." Love them. Tim: I know. We know you do. Zac: love them. In fact, one of my training is I'll load up the BFR cuffs and I'll go into my complex and just go ham on a leg press and all that. That's great. I look good for one day of the week. And that's my day for about 20 minutes. Tim: Got a sick leg pump. Zac: Yes. Just the veins out... Tim: Bursting out of your khakis? Zac: Exactly. How to maximize patient communication Tim: Speak to your journey in regards to your communication. How have you arrived at your current strategy for how to best communicate with probably both your clients and colleagues? How has that changed over the past five years? Zac: A lot. I was for a while, obsessed with learning about how to best interact with people. I think I was a pretty shy kid growing up. Quiet, uncertain of myself. But I found that whenever you got someone else talking, people would end up really liking you. Tim: Dale Carnegie. Zac: Honestly. Exactly. Yes. I forget the phrases that he says in his book? There's another one... Tim: Is it be interested, not interesting? Zac: Yes. Another quote I heard somewhere or this woman had met like these two higher-ups in English government and she talked to them about the first one. And she was like, "When I talked with this person, I thought he was the most interesting person in all of the UK." And then she said, "But when I talked to the other person, I thought I was the most interesting person in all of the UK." And that really hit home for me. And I try to, when I'm interacting with people, get that vibe. But at the same time too, the issue that I've run with when I've spent all of this time, learning with my interactions is in the beginning, I was just asking a lot of questions, almost interviewing people. And sometimes that can be off-putting if done in that way. So, to mitigate that, instead of asking a bunch of questions, there's a technique called elicitation that I've been experimenting with. And how people are going to be like," How is he eliciting me?" But basically, it's like getting information out of someone without coming off as a threatening thing. So, like if I come to Tim and I say, "Did you do this?" And say you did something wrong, whatever. Your inclination might be to go on the defense. And so, you might lie or you might say, "Well, yes I did. But it was because of this, this, this, this, and this." And that's not good. But if I wanted you to admit to that, I might say something or like a presumptive statement. It's like, "So what was it like when you did that?" Or "So you did X." And almost making assumptions to try to understand the other person or inferences based on what they said. I think helps build a greater connection because it shows that you not only are listening to them, but you're also understanding where they're coming from. And I think that's really important when it comes to human interaction and what I really focus on. And here's the cool thing about it. And there's actually a really good book by this FBI agent that goes into this, "If you're wrong about the assumption that I make..." Tim: The inference. Zac: The inference, that's still, doesn't lead to a negative interaction because people are so willing to correct any mistake that you make, but you'll still get the interaction. Like in the book, he talks about, if you're talking politics with someone, you might actually say someone has, I don't know, they say something and they're a Republican and you make the inference like, "Oh, well it sounds like something you might've gotten from FDR." And they might get so adamantly taking it back to like, "Like no, that's because Ronald Reagan did this, this and this." And so, then now you actually know their political bias and you didn't even have to ask... Tim: That direct question. Zac: Yes. And so, I think not having direct questioning can provide a lot more useful information because when you question can come off as interrogation. That's like some of the logistical things. But I think even more important than that is having good body language with someone. We were talking about Bill Clinton. One of my clients knows Bill pretty well; has met him multiple times. Everything you read about Bill in a positive light, obviously he's done some questionable things. But from an interaction standpoint, is a hundred percent true. And he has five different things that he thinks about when he's interacting with someone to build a rapport: Eye contact Close proximity The person's name Direction facing Tocuh Tim: Okay. Zac: So, like now if you do all of that at once, that can be a bit much. But if you're alternating among all of those variables, you can build an intimate connection with someone and have good rapport. And so, when I'm interacting with someone, I do think about those things. Not so overtly that it's like, "Okay, let's hit point number five." But those are things I think about incorporating whenever I'm interacting with someone, you know? And there's a reason why I try to sit on people's left most of the time, aside from it makes my neck more comfortable. And that's because the right hemisphere of your brain is where your emotional centers are. So, in theory, if I'm sending more information to that side, I could potentially build a greater emotional bond with you. Tim: Yes. Zac: You might be hearing this and it's like, "Oh gosh, this just sounds like every interaction is Zac making is this calculated thing." But it's not that. It's not if it's genuine. I think the reason why I dove into that so much is that I just wanted to connect with people, you know? Tim: Yes. Zac: I think back in my younger days, I was not in the best place mentally. I'm shy. And I didn't want that because human connection is something that we crave. So, if you can do anything that maximizes that, so it's beneficial for both parties or all parties involved. I don't think there's anything malicious about that. And that's something we should practice as a skill just like anything else. Tim: And it's intentional until it becomes automatic. Zac: Yes. Tim: And then it becomes automatic because frankly, a lot of those things are probably some of the best ways to connect with people. And I'm right there with you. Like you know, I think 90% of the reason why I do what we do is the ability to connect with people. I used to think it was the biomechanics and it's not, that evolves, that changes, but that connection... Zac: Absolutely. Tim: You know, we're in kind of rarefied air in terms of healthcare practitioners. Zac: Yes. And that's why I always wax and wane with manual therapy, but I always come back to it to some extent. Because touch is a form of connection. Tim: Yes. And its proximity without threat. Right. It's not this interview type of vibe. Zac: Yes, absolutely. Tim: Although we have a good 90-degree angle situation going on right now, [caption id="attachment_13679" align="alignnone" width="810"] Bruh on the left has it figured out (Image by uh_yeah_20101995 from Pixabay) [/caption] Zac: And there's a reason for that. So, and especially too, this is an interesting, a little difference between the sexes. If women, when they're interacting with each other, they generally face each other. And that's probably because they're generally more social creatures than us. They have more agreeableness and things of that nature. So, if you think back to like Hunter-gatherer times, that would be a useful thing. And so, that helps build more intimacy, but men who are close generally do not face each other. And the reason why is because when you're facing a man directly, it almost comes off as aggressive. Like you're going to challenge someone. So, that's why like, you know, bros, when they're hanging out, they're always like sitting. Right. And I think that there's a reason for that. And so, you can also based on whether it's someone's male or female, that can also influence the interaction depending on what direction you're trying to go. So, it's important. It's an important thing to recognize if you're working with people. Sum up Choose activities and people in your life that bring more energy, whioch will allow you to be a more productive member of society. Failure allows you to learn from your mistakes and create the life you want to live. You must push to great, but reconcile that some things are good as is. Movement beheavior change requires novelty, which is different for everyone. Sensorimotor cueing can have negative impacts on certain people; mitigate this through education and appropriate exercise selection. Pleasant interactions are acheived by being interested, elicitative language, and effective nonverbal communication.

Are pursuing better movement and better physiology mutually exclusive? There appears to be a divide between performance and health. Many argue that you cannot get bigger, stronger, faster, while still moving like boss. Others fear pushing heavy weight, relegating their program to mostly ground-based breathing resets. But does it have to be this way? That's the question that Michelle Boland, Tim Richardt, Francis Hoare, and I wrestle with, proving several examples of how this dichotomy is more often than not FALSE! In this podcast, you'll learn: How Francis was able to put on 11 pounds in one year and have better range of motion throughout his body The false dichotomy between performance and health How to increase movement in those who already have lots of muscle mass, but seek to move better and have less pain How the general population can increase fitness, muscle growth, and movement all at once Getting a training effect to those who are in pain Key Performance Indicators (KPIs) for moving well Are basic resets necessary to maintain movement options? How to balance expansive vs compressive activities Pairing respiration with training How to balance client's wants and needs The big rocks to maximizing movement options How to decide what your body composition should be Ready to move better, get stronger, and become an absolute savage? Look below to watch the interview, listen to the podcast, get the show notes, and read the modified transcripts. Check the video here. Learn more about our guests More Train, Less Pain Podcast - A podcast specifically designed around engineering the adaptable athlete. Michelle Boland Michelle is the owner of Michelle Boland Training which provides many services including, in-person 1:1 training sessions, coaching people remotely, writing training programs, and educational content for fellow trainers and fitness professionals who want to take complex training concepts and turn them into real outcomes for clients. Michelle has a bachelor's degree in Nutrition, a master's degree in Strength and Conditioning, and a doctorate in Exercise Physiology. Michelle was previously a strength and conditioning coach at a Division 1 institution and Director of Education at a private training facility. Instagram: dr.michelleboland Work with Michelle: https://michelle-boland-training.mykajabi.com/Work_With_Me Tim Richardt Tim Richardt is a Doctor of Physical Therapy, Strength and Conditioning Coach, and Owner of Richardt Performance and Rehabilitation located in Denver, CO. He specializes in the treatment and preparation of humans that like to run, lift, or play in the mountains. He currently offers personal training, physical therapy, and professional mentorship services.   His website Instagram: @Tim_Richardt_dpt Francs Hoare Francis Hoare is a Performance Coach and the Member Experience Director at Elevate Sports Performance & Healthcare in Las Vegas. He has helped hundreds of people of all ages and abilities improve their health, lives,l and athletic performance. Hitting the path to your goals efficiently requires being specific. Francis excels at creating programs tailored to your needs and goals. If you need someone to hold you accountable with high energy, Francis is one of the best in our industry. His motivational tactics ensure you both get challenged and succeed. When Francis is not coaching, he spends his time with his wife and two daughters, in the mountains or devouring a pint of Ben & Jerry's.   Instagram: @FrancisHoare and @ElevateSPH Show notes Here are links to things mentioned in the interview: Here is Francis' before and after pic [caption id="attachment_13492" align="aligncenter" width="500"] More gains AND better movement? Sold![/caption] Ben House - A master of science and training Mike Israetel - A bodybuilder with a unique approach to getting hyooge! Costa Rica Underground S&C 2018 Retreat Review -  This is what we reference on the bro retreat, where we discuss hypertrophy and more Peep the video below to see how my getting fat took away my squat: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEZZEWyBN78 The drunken turtle is a great move to improve backside expansion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjmjUihXtrs Lucy Hendricks - An excellent coach who does a great job of pushing physiology while improving movement options. Bill Hartman - Daddy-O Pops, the godfather of many of the movement concepts we discuss. Georgie Fear - My nutrition coach, and a master of behavior change Modified Transcripts A hypertrophy and movement case study Zac Cupples: How can I get huge as all hell while still moving well? How can I preserve these two qualities? That's why I wanted to bring my boy Francis here. He is a very effective case study of how we were able to do merge these two goals. Here's his story: Francis Hoare:  The last six years, five or six years or so, been doing a lot of running, 35, 40 miles mostly, mostly trail running. I competed in Spartan races, couple 24-hour races in there as well just for fun. I would spend quite a bit of my vacation time, go into places like Yosemite or Glacier National Park and either getting a cabin and going into the parks and doing a lot of hiking and running or backpacking. Because of my exercise choices, I had a fair bit of strength, but more biased toward rock climbing, American Ninja Warrior type stuff, a few lifting sessions per week, and about 8-10 hours of running each week. The issue was this style of training led to my like calves constantly hurting, hips constantly hurting, stuff like that. I was getting burnt out from the running. I decided to take a break, then quarantine it. It was the perfect time to put on some weight! I just met Dr. Zac and instantly, the stuff that he was talking about just captivated me. This stuff was hard. It would torture you, yet at the same time I'd feel good afterwards. I had a pump and felt more mobile. That's where it started. Zac: We spent the first couple blocks testing you and trying a few different interventions just to see what would work. And then- Francis: There was a lot of learn by doing. Because we weren't working with clients during the quarantine, I was able to wrap my head around all this stuff that Zac was talking about. It helped me troubleshoot what areas to improve movement-wise. If there were times where Zac was giving me some high-level stuff, and it just wasn't connecting with me, so we could pull the ropes back and build from the ground up. It was super beneficial as a strength coach. Once our gym, our facility was able to open up, I had a whole new set of tools to work with my members with. Zac: After you built that foundation, you took the concepts and ran with it for yourself. With more of a hypertrophy-focus. Francis: This all started in April. So, I did not rush this process at all, which, which helped me immensely. I knew I wanted to put on weight but didn't have a specific number. I just wanted to feel better and move better. My first girl was learning the basics movement-wise; starting with squatting, tucking, etc. I paired all that with eating more. I was keeping things in the 8-12 rep range, and that's how the process started. Zac: Yeah. And so, I'd say, correct me if I'm wrong, we probably spent a couple months building the movement foundation, and then you just kind of made it more hypertrophy volumes and and intensities for the last four or five months. Francis: No, I think I'm about eight weeks in to, you know, what on paper would look more like a hypertrophy phase, I was able to put on some weight again, just by hitting reps of 8 to 12 and doing new stuff and not running. Zac: Always good. Always good to know. Francis: Late October we really buckled down. Holidays are coming out and I'm going to eat a lot. So, let me take that guilt away from eating a lot by going into an official hypertrophy phase and yeah, all we did was we picked up the movements that we liked, assess how progress was going, and kept it simple over a 4–5-week span. I kept the load down and switched to what I call the 2020 workout—two seconds on the eccentric, two seconds on the concentric, no pausing in between, always staying under tension, never going all the way down or all the way up. You do that for 10 reps, obviously the time should work out to 40 seconds, doing four sets in a row with little rest. I'd do that for my big lift, then do 10 reps of three accessory moves with 30 second's rest. Four more sets of that. So, I'm doing only one movement at a time, knocking out all the sets, then I move on to the next movement. It takes about 30 minutes, which is perfect for my busy work and life schedule. Zac: How much weight have you put on over the year? Francis: 11 pounds so, from 152 to 163. Zac: That's a pretty good change in a year! On my on my end, at least with the movement testing, we had some great changes movement-wise: Hip flexion improved from (left/right) 110 bilaterally to 125/140. Hip internal rotation improved from (left/right) 35/15 to 30/40. Which I'm cool with as it's more symmetrical. I think it was really cool to see because I think a lot of people see this false dichotomy between moving well and getting big. You can only gain muscle by using machines, back squatting, and deadlifting. Yet Francis didn't do a single back squat. Francis: I haven't squatted more than 100 pounds. Zac: But you're doing things well. You're getting tension where you need to get tension. You were able to pack on size without losing movement. In fact, across the board your table measures improved. There may be a path where movement and performance diverge, but not for the overwhelming majority of us. Most of us aren't the elite bodybuilder who is debating whether or not to start using gear. Pursuing hypertrophy and better movement is absolutely doable for the general population. How those with substantial muscle mass can improve movement options Michelle Boland: Why I wanted to jump in this conversation is I want to talk about tearing down vs building up. How do you deal with less loading. I struggle with this personally because of the deep held traditional beliefs and expectations of not only my role as a strength conditioning coach and the years I've spent training. This started with a same as a Francis. Quarantine hit, and I had to think about what my training needed to look like. Evaluate the good and bad. My body shape is closer to a female cross-country runner, I enjoy running, but I went big into the bilateral lifts. Consequently, I've probably kept 12-15 pounds of muscle mass on my frame, past the point of probably where my body wants to be. I shifted to running a bit more and working out from home during the quarantine. Because I didn't track too much, I dropped about 11-12 pounds pretty quickly, and probably all that was muscle mass. This led to feeling some fear of switching my training, but I recognized some mistakes that I've made. My question involves those who have a lot of muscle mass and are currently dealing with aches and pains. If you look at the long game, this may lead to major issues like joint replacements in the future. It's a difficult perspective, but many leaders in the field have been ex-powerlifters who've had a shift in perspective.  What are some strategies these people can employ? I'm sure some muscle mass will be lost in the process, but can they maintain some and move better? Zac: What does it take to grow muscles? The big hypertrophy keys are volume and mechanical tension. That's really it. Kudos to Ben House and Ryan L'Ecuyer for teaching me that. Not once did these two mention back squat or bench press being essential. Hell, even most elite bodybuilders are doing machine-based work. Volume and tension are the key, the modalities are likely irrelevant otherwise. Michelle: Yeah, 100%. Much of what we focus on is isolation exercise to alter position and shape change. One thing I definitely missed was something that Francis stated before, and that's tempos. I think that is a huge factor, especially with pairing movements, simply phases of movements with phases of respiration, the tempo, kind of prescription of exercises is, I think, something that would have maintained kind of gains in something that I'm trying to do now. Francis: And I think stacking helps target the muscles you want better. Squats for example. If you can shift to sandbags and still torch your quads and glutes without back tension, that's a win. Tim Richardt: Another thing that Francis mentioned with what you guys outlined earlier, which I thought was really interesting was just the skew towards higher rep ranges. People talk about getting big, getting strong. 5x5 doesn't quite produce as much of the volume and mechanical tension as the higher rep ranges do. Going after 10, 15, 20 rep maxes lets you maintain movement quality, maintain the stack, and get a lot more of a training stimulus with a lot less of those deleterious secondary consequences that we're trying to step around. Zac: If you don't consider body position, then your only option to create tension is heavy loads. When I was in Costa Rica, I was teaching some bigger dudes the way I coach squatting. Admittedly, I wasn't coaching the squat as well as I am now. I was overtucking and flexing, which led to some trepidation with them. Regardless, with very little weight, their quads were absolutely destroyed. The only other way that sensation could be recreated is through heavy weight. Conversely, we just don't have data to support it one way or another aside from anecdotes. Is the only reason that you got this tension is because it's a novel position that you're not normally in? Or is it we're actually targeting the quads more? That's just something I don't know or have an answer to. What I have seen is those who do a lot of hinge-based work (I consider a back squat along this line) lose movement options. I think to preserve health of the tissues and joints, probably worthwhile to throw in at least some type of stuff that contrasts that. Francis: Depending on the person, I don't think you need to go all one way. If buy-in is limited, then give them a couple breathing resets at the beginning, for their warm up, give them one or two movements to do throughout their set. And take it from there, especially if there's someone who refuses to give up something like deadlifting or back squatting. Try to offset that with their accessory work. Michelle: I think the best thing you can do is every coach needs a coach. My current coach is Eric Huddleston. He's done a great job putting programs together that feed into what I want to be doing and will do. I told him I'm not going to lie on the ground and do resets. Some clients will be that way. ] But he does an amazing, amazing job at creating exercises that just build those concepts in; using tempos paired with phases of respiration; almost like an active reset. With this, I've noticed muscles gains and better movement quality. And he only programs about six exercises per session. The false dichotomy between performance and health Tim: I just want to circle back to something Zac mentioned a couple minutes ago, we have two somewhat incomplete truths. On one hand, we have that being strong is absolutely badass and having some muscle and the ability to produce power is kind of the sign of a healthy human right? It's the strength training is good paradigm. And then there's a lot of people that just say, you know, strength training tightens up joints and muscles, and it leads to an achy, stiff human. And neither of those two statements is completely true nor completely false. It reminds of the interplay between bulking and cutting. For 99.99% of people, it's probably not a thing.  Most individuals tend to be so detrained that they don't need to worry about a specific bulking protocol or cutting protocol. You can do both with intelligent eating and intelligent training. And I think what you guys have outlined is sort of the intelligent eating, intelligent training approach to improving movement options and improving like muscle bulk strength power output concurrently, which is cool. Zac: Even this conversation to some degree is more focused on how coaches can get themselves as jacked as possible. For most of our clients, we are lucky to get them in the gym three times per week! Francis: You definitely have those less dedicated, but I also have people I've trained for years that I'm excited to implement some of this stuff. After the quarantine ended and our gym opened up, we started focusing on stacking; spending a few phases getting good at that. We built our initial phases on that, then were able to focus on more specific qualities. It's not necessarily the what? But the how? And why? And that's where you can get really deep in all this stuff. Tim: And Zac, I might respectfully disagree with the point that you made a couple minutes ago. I think that the people that come to see, you, Francis, Michelle, myself, they tend to be people that are either bad at exercise or just really beat up. If we take those people that have a limited movement option repertoire, and a lot of things are going to hurt, if we can get them a training effect while furthering their movement options, then they don't feel like they're bad at exercise anymore. As opposed to the typical gym where someone might be back squatting on the first day of their program, potentially experiencing pain associated with that.  That's not going to retain clients very effectively. So, I think this stuff really becomes paramount to ensuring a long-term positive client experience. Zac: I would agree with you. Back squats and similar moves have a much higher technical demand than say a goblet squat or a sandbag squat. Francis: You can hand someone a 50-pound sandbag on a ramp, and torch them. It makes your coaching job that much easier. Key performance indicators for better movement Tim: I think one big problem in our industry is not defining terms especially well, this is something that Doug Kechijian talks about all the time where we say things like we want to move well, we don't want to lose motion, but we don't really have a clear idea of what that means. Zac, Francis, what were some of the Key Performance Indicators (KPIs) that you tracked every few weeks as Francis was putting on muscle? And how would you recommend people approach that? Zac: Francis is so lucky because I can table test him on a fairly regular basis. The issue with Francis is many of the standing measures I normally recommend he was pretty good it. His toe touch and squat were full. But if you are limited in those moves, you can always pursue getting them better. They can also be a good gauge on if you are going in a good direction or not. Personally, if I get too fat, I lose my ability to squat and I got a really good video of that happening to me. In the video, I was 200 pounds. Fat as shit. It was a Herculean effort to squat below parallel, I just couldn't do it. But now that I'm leaner, I can squat fairly easily. The key KPI is you need to find stuff that you're limited in, and then just recheck that periodically to make sure that you still have that. That could be an Apley's Scratch test where you check shoulder internal and external rotation. If you get bigger and lose motion, that doesn't mean you need to stop pursuing hypertrophy. You just need to change something to restore some of that motion. It could be getting on the ground and doing a reset. Maybe it's re-evaluating your exercise selection. It's not a matter of maintaining certain movements at all times, but can you get into positions that you should be able to. For Francis in particular, we looked at hip and shoulder range of motion predominately. Francis: Trunk rotation was another thing we tracked. But I also didn't have the toe touch down pat. Zac: You didn't? Francis: No, not at first. But an exercise like drunken turtle cleaned most things up fast. It's easy as a coach to check range of motion, but don't be afraid to use your Coach's Eye too. It can be sometimes hard to describe or put KPIs to good movement, but you also kind of know when you see it. I think this better translates to stuff clients care about as well. Zac: Another example, Lucy Hendricks, she went through a phase where her clients were deadlifting a lot, and subsequently lost their ability to perform a loaded squat well. You could use that as a KPI for your clients. Basically, you have to find a movement that is on the cusp of your capabilities, and then you would just continue to recheck that. Tim, in your case, I think a toe touch is a really good move, because you are right on the edge of being able to get that. if you started severely losing that those gains, we might look at making small tweaks to your program to get that better. Pairing resets with heavy lifting Tim: Is there still a time in place for load it up, and then we'll reset it before you leave? Zac: For me, resets are basically regressed versions of positions that you are trying to get into. For example, Michelle is a good mover and well versed in the knowledge realm. She may be able to attain the positions she needs with loaded exercises. If you can stack and achieve a full squat position under load, I don't see a need to drill down to something less than that. Because you can attain the position that you need. But with the people we work with, they don't have that movement capability. So, we have to choose an activity that has more constraints to it, or get them on their back more, because they don't know how to get their bodies in the positions they need to. Francis: We do work with athletes too and sometimes they come to us on a much shorter timeline than we would want. We understand they have to perform. We can't put our vision ahead of them for that if they are close to in-season. Sometimes the priority is pain freedom. If we can get them out of pain, that can increase buy-in and allow us to do what we need them to do. For me, I didn't deadlift for three months. If you had asked me a year ago, what was my best lift? It would have been deadlift. Me stopping deadlifting was trusting my coach. We have to ask where does this person want to go? How quickly? What kind of trust can you build with them and take it from there. There's not necessarily a broad stroke answer there. It definitely needs to be individualized. Zac: it doesn't mean that a deadlift, back squat, and bench press are bad exercises. In fact, they're quite good if you are chasing force production. I'm currently working with an optometrist and in their field, they look at convergence and divergence. Convergence is really focusing in on a specific point, and then divergence would be looking further out. And it was interesting because she was talking about that, I saw a parallel in the movement realm. She noticed that people who are really good at converging have a tendency to sit with their knees together and be more perched and upright, which is, you know, extension, internal rotation, force production-based qualities. People who are better at diverging, looking further out and seeing large amount of space, sit more chill. Divergence is more expansion and external rotation. Vision drives many of our motor responses. When she's prescribing exercises, you can totally work on convergence-based activities. But these moves can be overdone, creating a loss of divergence in the process. I think the movement realm operates similarly. You can do back squat, and you can do deadlifts. And you can do these activities that drive more force production, more internal rotation, more compression, or whatever stuff you want to say. But if that's all that you focus on, you can potentially lose the other side of that equation. It doesn't seem to be the case where if you do a lot of stuff that is more expansion-based that you lose the ability to compress, because Francis can still deadlift a fair amount. We're tweaking some of your techniques, though. Programming improved movement options Tim: Would it be fair to say that if the goal is maintaining or improving movement options, your initial bias and program is going to be towards more squatting and counternutated-types of activities? Zac: Yeah. The only time I won't do that is if a client is pursuing a sport or thoroughly enjoys a bias towards force production For example, I have one guy right now who we're working through some shoulder pain with benching, but he wants to bench and back squat. Cool, you can keep doing that, I'll just tweak everything around that. Now if I have a situation where I have free rein with someone's program, they don't deadlift for the first couple blocks. The reason being is that most people have movement restrictions. My frame of mind is to first improve movement options as much as possible so their movement menu is larger. It seems like starting with a focus on front-loaded squatting, unilateral work, and considering ribcage structure helps with that. Tim: Branching off that topic. Something I've seen Michelle do a lot is pairing different phases of breathing with different phases of motion. Is that something that you've been utilizing with yourself and with clients recently? Michelle: Yeah, absolutely. That's something I've definitely been doing with my clients and also doing on my own training. It's made a dramatic impact in how I feel. I think the key with implementing is marketing appropriate expectations and linking these activities towards the client's goals and how it can benefit them. Zac: Could you expand upon that, Michelle? Michelle: It's not that we're doing it bad. We just have to indentify our ideal clientele, and make sure I provide a clear message on how I train and what people can expect from me. By doing that, the people who approach working with me have changed. I think I just got better at talking to people about reaching their goals, while also including maybe some other factors with that. Zac, I think you do probably one of the best jobs at that; talking to people who want performance gains but also addressing any nagging aches and pains. Being clear that training or lifting weights doesn't have to hurt. The mainstream fitness industry doesn't seem to think that way. Tim: I think, you know, I think it's really interesting because when I think when Zac and I first got into the field of physical therapy, what, six, seven years ago, there was still a pretty big bifurcation between strength coaches and therapists, there weren't a lot of therapists that were strength coaches or word trainers. I mean, one doesn't even come to mind. It's positive to see both of these fields merging together, and starting to view training and rehab as the same thing, just different points on the same exact continuum. We are less in silos. We don't worry about waiting until table tests are perfect before training, yet we also don't let people go back squat until their eyes bleed. I think everybody has a much better appreciation of what loaded activities might do to a person's range of motion, as well as what ranges a person might need in order to do the activities they want. Francis: We see a lot of people who had a coach or doctor say they can't do an activity. We rephrase that by saying we can help you get there. We may need to shelve it now and work on a few other things first, then go from there. Seeing the look of relief of rewarding. We are either here to help people enjoy their life better or perform better depending on what exactly they're after. For us at elevate, it's all about physical freedom, and not telling people no, but telling them Yes. Zac: if you can keep that end goal in mind and relate activities to that goal, then it's more likely that that person is going to be up to doing things that maybe aren't as sexy, like being on your back and doing breathing exercises, or not back squatting. Francis: Or just training more. I f we get you out of pain, your likelihood of training more goes through the roof, and then your likelihood of success of success goes through the roof. Zac: You can't hit volume and mechanical tension if you can't train. Michelle: Yeah, that's, that's a difficult one. If people aren't coming to see me, you know, they're probably not training. So, getting in people in the gym for training sessions, multiple times a week can be a big challenge with a lot of general population clients. I'll just talk about myself. if I go to a physical therapist, I have a certain expectation of what that session is going to be like, versus coming to see your strength conditioning coach, I personally get a lot of people who really hard workouts. There are different expectations in those realms. Zac: Francis does a really good job with classes and custom training of marrying those two things where you can give someone a really good training effect, while still helping them favorably movement-wise. Francis: Yeah, just if you communicate with them and check to make sure they're feeling the right things, you can make all this stuff incredibly taxing and difficult in the moment for sure. They might scoff at you because they're moving less weight than what they're used to, but wait to see how they feel with it. Conversely, if they come in and they're strong. Don't be so set in your ways that you don't give them heavier weight. But that's always our job's challenge; getting people to do the right things but be happy with what they're doing. You just have to be on top of it and have conversations with your clients. Explain the “why.” Though it can be hard in classes or small group sessions. The harder it can be explaining what's going on. If it's someone new, you might have to give him a call or text after the session. Finishers and conditioning sets at the end are always a good way to get them. A couple minutes on the assault bike does wonders. Michelle: I think that's a huge point. Clients remember what you sent them home with. Francis: It helps them walk out of your session with them feeling like they achieved something. Tim: It seems like the programming keys then include: Squats Unilateral activities Alternating activities Slower tempos The stack Are there any other major keys? Zac:  Ideally, with all of the tenants that Tim outlined so eloquently, you should be doing some type of breathing during specific components. Generally, that'll involve inhaling during the eccentric, and exhaling during the concentric. But you have to look at what you are specifically trying to make eccentric? What are you trying to make concentric? Suppose I'm doing a lat pulldown. Generally, we would exhale on the pull and inhale on the way up. Well, what if my predominant limitation is actually expansion on the opposite side? Well, I could totally inhale as I pull down to open that up. But for the overwhelming majority of people, that could be a little bit too into the weeds. I probably program that more with coaches than general population. For them, it's stack, full breath excursions during iso holds, then inhale on the eccentric, exhale on the concentric. But, Michelle, I'd be curious to hear how you're incorporating phases of respiration into some of the training stuff that that you're talking about? Michelle: You hit it on the head. I'm just making sure that people are going through phases of respiration that mimic their phases of movement. So, it's the eccentric concept that you just mentioned, and then have been messing around with a lot of inhaling the top position, holding my breath down, exhaling up, just kind of getting more into that and getting my clients used to it. So, adding more and more as I go and progressing with that stuff over time. Zac: How about yourself, Tim? Tim: I think that's a really interesting idea, Michelle. I so I guess the notion there would be that you're trying to create a bunch of expansion before you go into the range of motion that you're trying to load? Michelle: Yeah, I'll have to give my coach Eric credit for that. We do a lot of oscillating isometrics—dropping an object and going to the bottom catching it. And a lot of is inhaling on the top, holding my breath down, and then exhaling up and pausing at the bottom. So, I think it's finishing that yielding strategy. So, I'll definitely give him credit for introducing me to that. Tim: With my own training, I focus on getting full respiratory excursion through a range of motion. It seems most folks are just bracing and then like getting a little bit of airflow in whatever area we tend to be more hyper mobile at. So, slowing things down, which again, that tempo helps with and actually. Also focusing on global ribcage expansion with whatever you are doing. Zac: I think another thing that's vastly underutilized if you need to get extra volume, is machines and blood flow restriction training. Both are awesome ways to incorporate volume, especially if you get someone who has a low movement menu to choose from. This is especially true if you have someone post-op or morbidly obese. So, Tim, how are we going to get you huge? Tim: I think personally the passion lies in moving very quickly up mountains. So probably we're looking to keep me tiny yet powerful so that I can charge you up some tall stuff and hopefully not perish. Zac: That's reasonable. Well, that makes sense since you said that my 13,000-foot climb was nothing! Tim: And not to talk shit on your 13,000-foot climb. I think it's so complex man. Zac: Yeah, you totally talk shit. That's fine. Ask Francis, I'm probably one of the biggest shit talkers out there. Tim: Selfishly, I'm just trying to get you out to Colorado. Deciding on body composition goals Zac: When do you decide that you need to get bigger and when do you decide that you need to get leaner? I talked with my nutrition coach Georgie Fear. If you're not following her, you should, she's really intelligent. We got myself to a point where I'm fairly lean. And it's like, where do I go from here? And she had a really good point of does your body do all the things that you want it to do? Tim, in your case, if you're trying to climb mountains, do you need to put on more or less muscle mass to be able to do that and then just let the ascetics do what they need to do? I'd be curious to hear everyone's thoughts. Francis:  If I go back to running, I'll wonder how I'll feel about things body-wise. Michelle: Aesthetics really isn't my goal. It's more of how I feel and how I perform. I think it's just kind of what you're used to. You get used to certain body image looking at yourself. Since my frame is small, missing 11 pounds is a very noticeable difference. But I think that was because of my reduced fitness that happened over quarantine. I needed to get back on a training regimen. Surprisingly, I was still capable of moving a lot of weight. I think I just needed to build consistency. My bodyweight is back down to undergrad size, but I'm still capable of moving weight. But now, I can recover a lot faster compared to when I prioritized the barbell. Sum up Performance and health can be pursued simultaneously if you use volume, tension, and good exercise selection Intensity can help muscle-bound folks move better Pursue many expansive-based exercises to offset compressive-based exercises Emphasize stacking, single arms reaches, and more to preserve movement.

A new dawn In the age of CCB. Tim Is no longer #1. Mad Max gets a promotion. Glen Is VERY serious. Tyson fight, Tua, Cam Newton, Brady, Dolphin talk and much more.

Solo talk, how I’m feeling about Forex.Its short and straight to the point.  Notes: Not a scam.Educate myself. Opportunities.Jump Into Forex.Mentors. Not here to convince.Shift my life.My goals.Not the elite.My boy Tim Is killing it. 

On this episode, Lamb is joined by the Hot Take Kid, Tim Is back to recap the 1st round of the NFL draft as well as our very own Draft expert Taren to chop it up about the most unique draft of all time!  Use "BLUEWIRE" at BetOnline.ag for an exclusive welcome bonus! Support the show at Patreon.com/VeteransMinimumFollow us on Facebook at Facebook.com/VeteransMinimumFollow us on Twitter @VeteransMinimumFollow us on Instagram @VeteransMinimumHosts: @TheLambShowGuest: @BrotoFFtim @talkintds

You may have seen the Hashtag #PencilsDown. Many comic creators are feeling the pinch of the Covid19 economic downturn. Tim Is here to discuss it. We also talk about Valiant's bad luck with the Bloodshot film and Tim taking over as Editor In Chief Of Heavy Metal Magazine

For a total of $75 off, that's $25 off each of your first 3 boxes, go to http://GreenChef.us/kinda75 Get your trial set now at http://Harrys.com/ROOSTER The boys go behind the scenes of the Tim Gettys Roast and also discuss their love for all the various styles of pizza. Time Stamps - 00:00:04 - Start 00:07:05 - Steve Aoki Pizza 00:19:53 - Milk Mommy 00:28:51 - Tim Is 30 00:57:12 - Ads 00:59:51 - Austin 01:06:57 - Evangelion 01:14:13 - Spiderman/MCU

Volatility Review: A look back at the week from a volatility perspective This week, featuring guest co-host Bill Valentine from Valentine Ventures. The old VIX call vs SPX put debate continues VIX Cash - 12.5, up 0.3 from last show RVX - 14.6, up 0.7 from last week VVIX - 89, 2 handles higher than last show Size "hedge" in SPX puts this week VIX Options - ADV, 452K, VIX call/put: 2.8/1, Total 7.77m (5.74m Calls, 2.03m Puts) VXX - 26.65, almost unchanged from last show Volatility Voicemail: Volatility Flash Poll The CBOE Skew Index alarmed many when it soared above 150. Of course, every index tells its own skew story. Which index do you think has the steepest skew right now (aka 25D put vol vs. 25D Call vol)? Russell 2000 S&P 500 Nasdaq Other Listener questions and comments: Question from Leans - Do you think SVXY will ever go back to its pre-Feb structure? Question from Tim - Is there really such a thing as a "covered call" in VIX since the options don't expire into futures? If I'm long a future and sell a XIV call against it what is that called? Crystal Ball: Your prognostication headquarters Last week: Mark L. - 11.25 Mark S. - 12.14 This week: Mark L. - 11.75 Mark S. - 12.15 Bill - 13.00

Volatility Review: A look back at the week from a volatility perspective This week, featuring guest co-host Bill Valentine from Valentine Ventures. The old VIX call vs SPX put debate continues VIX Cash - 12.5, up 0.3 from last show RVX - 14.6, up 0.7 from last week VVIX - 89, 2 handles higher than last show Size "hedge" in SPX puts this week VIX Options - ADV, 452K, VIX call/put: 2.8/1, Total 7.77m (5.74m Calls, 2.03m Puts) VXX - 26.65, almost unchanged from last show Volatility Voicemail: Volatility Flash Poll The CBOE Skew Index alarmed many when it soared above 150. Of course, every index tells its own skew story. Which index do you think has the steepest skew right now (aka 25D put vol vs. 25D Call vol)? Russell 2000 S&P 500 Nasdaq Other Listener questions and comments: Question from Leans - Do you think SVXY will ever go back to its pre-Feb structure? Question from Tim - Is there really such a thing as a "covered call" in VIX since the options don't expire into futures? If I'm long a future and sell a XIV call against it what is that called? Crystal Ball: Your prognostication headquarters Last week: Mark L. - 11.25 Mark S. - 12.14 This week: Mark L. - 11.75 Mark S. - 12.15 Bill - 13.00

Tim continues throwing your story questions at Shawn. Submit your questions for future episodes at twitter.com/storygrid. Can you talk more about the Society genre, please? Does this lend itself better to a mini-plot story (with multiple protagonists) than an arch-plot story? How do you go to "the end of the line" in a story like The Accidental Tourist? Clearly, the stakes are not life or death, so how do you show a fate worse than death? How do we track sub-plot on the one-page Foolscap Global Story Grid? Or, do we track them at all? In the Action genre, Clock subgenre, the book gives four sub-subgenres with different villain types driving the plot: Ransom, Holdout, Countdown, and Fate. In Fate, Time itself is the villain, and the example is Back to the Future. Does that last one apply only to time-travel stories? How do “Time” and “Circumstances” differ as clock devices/villains? Is deus ex machina ever a good thing? What are the values at stake for a non-fiction? What do recommend writers do about writer’s block? What has Shawn learned through this process? Has he changed his mind about anything since working with Tim? Is there an ideal time to engage an editor and/or beta readers?

We're back with another weekend of the Cabral House Call! Here are today's community questions: Tim: Is there anyone that should NOT do a cleanse? Greg: I do interval training and take an NSAID a half hour prior to reduce inflammation - what are your thoughts? Alexandra A: What are the side effects of birth control? Enjoy the Q&A and all the tips along the way!   - - - Show Notes: See all the Show Notes, Links & Recommendations at: http://stephencabral.com/147   - - - Get Your Questioned Answered! Each week I answer our community questions and I'd love to answer yours on an upcoming show: http://StephenCabral.com/askcabral      

Interview w/ Tim Ballard & Mark Mabry Tim: The guy’s name was Marble. Mark: Marble the child molester. Tim: His name was Marble, and he looked like a marble. El Centro childporn... Mark: Child Fugitive Caught in Calexico? 'Child Pornography Fugitive Caught in Calexico Port' Tim: No. Mark:  Imperial Valley Press. 'A man suspected of having child pornography was arrested in Calexico, El Centro, indicted in child sex crime'. Tim: Is his name Marble? Mark: Man, Imperial... "An Imperial man was arrested on suspicion of possession of child pornography on Tuesday, after authorities allegedly found child pornography on his computer. Homeland Security investigators, special agents began investigating local internet activity about child pornography."   Intro: You are listening to Slave Stealer. "It is a world that I know I understand better than most people, but you don’t even know how real and how huge it is. There are laws put in place to protect kids, and one of the laws, surprise, surprise, is you can’t sell them. If you guys are traffickers, you’d come in just like this. This is what happens. This is the core of the problem."   Tim: Welcome to Slave Stealer podcast. I am here shouting too loud for... Mark: You broke the mike! Tim: ...with co-host Mark Mabry, but we welcome you, and this is our kind of Throwback Thursday version We’re just going to talk about couple of interesting things that we think you should know about.    Mark: One in particular... People ask, "Do you do domestic work?" "Is everything overseas?" So, I want a domestic Throwback Thursday. Tim: Yeah, we... See, it’s interesting. We... I say about half our, half our case load right now is domestic, but the domestic cases are the ones we cannot readily talk about because they are generally more sensitive, because they require more... They require a different set of tools, they are law enforcement sensitive - a lot of software, a lot of techniques that require us to go online and do things that we can’t reveal to the public because there are countermeasures that the bad guys could utilize if they knew what we were doing. So...  Mark: Like what? Tim: Well, let me...let me just tell you and ruin every case we have pending! So yeah, we do a ton of domestic work, but because of the nature of it, we don’t get to talk too much about it. We let our law enforcement partners talk about it. They come out with a press release, and then we just point our donors to it. And they are usually kind enough to mention us in it, and we leave it at that.   Mark: Yeah. What do you find... Before we jump into that, give me like kind of a glossary of key elements for this story that...a few little background tidbits that will help us understand things that you are going to say in the story. Are there any like technical things we need to understand? Tim: No, I mean, you should just know that things like child pornography and acquiring children, in the United States in particular, are readily available on the internet - mostly in the dark web. These are the places that Google is not going to reach.    Mark: You mean Google does not reach everything? Tim: Google does not reach everything. There are many parts of the internet that are impossible for Google to reach, and these are the places where the pedophiles flock to. They network, they trade in child pornography, they negotiate child sex deals, and we are way behind in terms of our response to this. And so - when I say we,  I mean the nation, law enforcement in general - and so we are working to better the solution to that problem - building software, working with some of the most advanced technology companies on the planet, working with the top U.S. officials in this area. And we are building tools that will allow law enforcement to go into these dark places and root out these bad guys.    Mark: Are there...on the market right now - or not on the market, in the space right now - there are software solutions that are good. What are some of the good guys out there with great software that are busting... Is Thorn? Tim: Oh, absolutely yeah! So Thorn, which is Ashton Kutcher and Demi Moore's foundation - they have internet computer gurus/engineers who are constantly in a think tank developing software. They have developed tools, for example - and they have been open about this - tools that allow law enforcement to identify when a child is actually soliciting himself or herself. And the reason... And it has to do with how they are writing the post. Now, the posts look like they are coming from some pimp, but the pimp takes the kid and forces them to write their own advertisement on Backpage or Craigslist, or different social media networks - Facebook. And so it looks like it is coming from an adult.   Mark: Or a kid. Looks like it is coming from an adult, but it’s a kid. Tim: They are trying to make it look like it is coming from an adult, or that a pimp is negotiating the deal, when in fact the child himself or herself is writing it. Mark: Under duress. Tim: Under duress. And so the software actually has...looks for key identifiers that would indicate that it’s a child.   Mark: Voiceprint things. Tim: And then they would...yes, and verbage and different things. And then that would allow law enforcement to go solicit that individual in their current capacity to pull them out and find them. So that’s some software that Thorn is involved in building.    Mark: That’s cool! Way to go Demi and Ashton Kutcher - on the good guy list. Tim: Good guy list. Mark: Ok, that’s... Let’s storm straight into the story that I’d like you to tell today. It happened in Imperial Valley. Talk to me. Tim: So it was, again it was... We identified somebody through means I can’t reveal, but it was somebody who was dealing in the dark net. Mark: Now, we were there doing some training. Can you reveal that? Tim: Yeah. I mean that’s how...that’s how it started. We were training... Mark: Yeah, walk me through the whole story. Tim: We went down to Imperial County and we trained law enforcement - several agencies - on how to go on the dark net and find people who are trading in child pornography. And during the training, we found this manual, this 'how to' manual. And it was multiple pages - I want to say somewhere between 40 and 50 pages long. Mark: How to what? Tim: Well, I am getting to that, ok. It’s 'how to'... Mark: Oh, you are saving that? Tim: I am saving that, yeah, the punchline. Mark: Awesome. Stay tuned. Tim: ...how to court and ultimately rape a child. That’s what the manual was. And it said things like - and this is something that had been traded amongst many pedophiles... Mark: So this manual has a title on it in pretty script that says, 'How to court and rape a child'? Tim: I don’t...I can’t tell you that that is the exact language, but that is what the manual was. And it talks about everything from how do you find a child - "well, find a niece or nephew that has friends and invite them over," like starting there. And then from there, these are the kind of gifts you can give them, here's the kind of things you can say to them so they trust you...and then it takes you down this whole dark horrific path to the point where you are controlling this child completely and abusing them sexually. Mark: So you had... You found this manual in the training on the dark web. Tim: On the dark web, being traded by someone who was in Imperial County. And then following up... And again, I can’t get into details of how we did this, but following up, we were able to - in an undercover capacity - able to ascertain the same person also possessed quite a bit of child pornography: child rape videos and images. Mark: And then what? Tim: And then, after that, we decided that this training should end with the search warrant for this individual’s home being at least mostly written. And that’s what we did. And so we were able to do the training, come back a week or so later after they got the paperwork in place, judge signed the warrant, and we were able to accompany the Imperial County sheriff’s office as they raided the home of this individual and seized his computer and talk to him. Mark: Are you allowed to say his name? Tim: Sure, yeah! He’s been convicted, it’s open, it’s public - his name is, his last name is Marble. Mark: That is such a creepy pedophile name. Tim: Why? Mark: Marble. I don’t know, that’s like a movie character name. Tim: Yeah. Mark: "Mr. Marble, we’d like to have a look around." So, were there any big or little surprises at the house? Tim: So, yeah, a couple funny things... As law enforcement breached the door, he instantly said - we didn’t tell him why we were there - the minute the door was breached, he said, "Other people have been using my computer too!" "Well, we didn’t say we were here for your computer," you know, "I’m not the only one, who uses it!" So it was obvious - he ended up confessing everything. And it was... Some of these cases get depressing, you know. You want to hate these guys completely because of what they are doing and the threat they pose. He actually told one of the sheriff deputies: "It’s a good thing you caught me," because, he said, he was in the process of being a foster parent to a 7-year-old girl. And he said, "If I got that little girl, I was going to rape her. That’s why I was doing it. So it is a good thing you caught me." And a lot of these guys, from my experience, do say that. They admit that they are monsters. And they don’t like that they are in this place. And some are almost relieved to get caught and be put away before they can really hurt somebody. I mean, it’s like they’ve lost control of their lives - they are so addicted to this horrific desire and passion and everything else. And so this guy in the interrogation, the thing that made it kind of sad... And we have video of him, we can probably put at least part of the video up on the website - he started talking about his life and how he was sexually abused as a child. You know, we talk a lot about how people can become addicted to child pornography because they start looking at pornography and that changes their brain - it basically creates brain damage, shrinkage in the brain, because of the overstimulation of the frontal lobes of the brain because that’s what people are going for, right, trying to get this chemical reaction and they overuse it and they overrun it and that ruins their life. It hurts their opportunity to have a normal, healthy, romantic relationship, you know, because their brain is now demented, and porn is the only thing that they recognize as fulfilling that need. It’s really sad. That’s a choice people make, like drugs. And it takes them to a dark place where they end up in jail. And all the guys - everyone who is a pedophile abusing children - are a threat to children and need to go to jail. But this case was a little bit different, and we see this often too. When you are abused as a child and that becomes your first sexual experience... And I’ve talked to so many psychologists to try to understand these guys - these guys that we're investigating, interrogating. And they said it is absolutely true: when your first sexual experience as a child or a teenager, whatever that experience is, that becomes what your brain, as it’s still forming... It’s still, really physically hasn’t formed completely and so it’s still taking ideas and concepts and ingraining them into your person. And so sex becomes, to these kids who are being molested, can become a relationship that is defined by an adult and a child. And that’s what their brain recognizes as sex. So when they get older, and they start developing their sexuality, what they know to be that sexuality is relationships, sexual relationships, between an adult and a child. So they then become the offender.    Mark: Now, to be clear, not every child that was molested grows up to become an offender... Tim: Absolutely. Mark: ...or has that predisposition. Tim: Absolutely. That’s not... Yeah, it’s not every...it’s certainly not every person who is abused, but it happens quite a bit. Mark: It’s a factor in a lot of people we catch. Tim: It’s a factor, and in the case of this man, that’s what he was telling us - that he had been abused. And I mean, you listen to the interrogation and it makes you sad. You know he needs to go to jail because he is a threat. He admits himself he needs to go to jail and he’s a threat. But when you hear his story, you realize how tragic this whole thing is. It’s so cyclical.   Mark: Is there a more... And I love to hear you say that and it breaks my heart too, because there’s...seems like it’s really easy, and we do it frequently. Some of the bad guys, like Fuego and these guys that we bust that are selling kids - they are horrible monsters. And then there are guys like Marble who...there’s a high degree of sympathy where you're like, "Man, I’m just sad for your ruined, shattered life that started out ruined and shattered and you were left to try to pick up the pieces." Like, how do you go about your job sympathetically or empathetically? You know what I am saying?   Tim: You just carry that sadness with you, but you don’t regret for one second putting the guy behind bars. Mark: Yeah. Tim: Because there’s nothing more important than children and their safety and the preservation of their innocence. So they have to go to jail. And you just look at them and you are sympathetic to their plight, and you hope that they can have redemption and they can somehow be healed from their brain damage.   Mark: You know, it’s interesting. Our intro music on the Slave Stealer podcast is - you know the intro sequence where you are talking about, "They look like you, and this guy and that guy" - that actually took place in an interrogation room in Haiti. And you can see it on "The Abolitionists", the documentary that is coming out on April 8th, that you are actually lecturing me. It was our very first op that I accompanied you on and we busted those two ladies who were selling kids, and I said to you, "Man, I’m a little torn up here." Do you remember that?    Tim: Yeah, absolutely! Mark: And you went off and you were like, "Listen, this is hard," and you essentially said the same thing. But I understand it now with a little more time under my belt.   Tim: Yeah. Look, you never... And it’s, it was a shocking thing for me when I started doing these cases - and this is outside even child cases, drug cases, any kind of case. There is an element of human sadness when you are taking someone from their family - even as bad as they are, there are people that love them and can’t believe they made these decisions. And you are the guy taking them away in handcuffs and putting them in jail for a long time. And you can’t help but feel an element of human sympathy, you know. And you don’t know what decisions led, you know, what things happened to this person that led them to make these decisions. But that doesn’t mean for a second that you don’t wish they were in jail. Mark: Yeah. Tim: You know they need to go to jail, but it’s rarely this total victorious, just, "Yeah, we did this!" You know, it’s... There can be some of that, but the whole thing is sad. The whole thing is tragic. It is tragic for everybody involved, especially for the victims, especially for the children, the parents. But also, in some ways, for the bad guys... Mark: Yeah. Tim: But it doesn’t mean you stop doing it. Mark: I think that’s a great little Throwback Thursday moment. Sign us off, man. Tim: Thanks for tuning in, and we will see you next time on Slave Stealer podcast.

This week, we have a brief discussion about how third party ad networks affect performance on news sites before talking with Sophie Shepherd. Sophie is a Senior Designer at Ushahidi, a non-profit software company that develops free and open-source products for information collection, visualization, and interactive mapping. We discussed the challenges of designing for international users with minimal data speed, how Ushahidi brings data and information to regions with nearly no connection, designing with task completion in mind, and more. ##Show Links: Sophie Shepherd Follow Sophie on Twitter Ushahidi Lara Hogan - A List Apart - Showing Performance Global Mobile Book Eric Meyer Crisis Design Rust Belt Refresh ##Transcript Katie: Welcome. You're listening to Episode 8 of The Path to Performance, the podcast dedicated to everyone to make the web faster. I am your host, Katie Kovalcin. Tim: And I'm your other host, Tim Kadlec and yeah, you nailed it; this is Episode 8. Well done! Katie: I was like, oh yeah, I totally know which episode it is. Wait: no, I don't. This is Episode 8. Tim: I mean, it's understandable; the numbers are getting higher, it's getting harder and harder. Katie: Totally out of control it's on more than one hand now! Tim: Yeah, once you've thrown that second hand, things get really complicated. It gets worse when you have to start taking off the socks and using your toes as well! That's where I always get hung up! Katie: You can wear flip-flops and then you don't have to worry about it. Tim: True, true. Katie: How are you, Tim? Tim: I'm doing OK; I'm actually wearing flip-flops right now! Yeah, I am! Katie: It's warm in Wisconsin? Tim: It is warm, for once. Yeah, I'm doing good; enjoying my day. And you? Katie: I'm good as well. The sun is shining here, which is a very rare thing in Ohio this summer and I feel like I have been whining about it for so long but today, I'm not whining. Tim: That's good! That's good! I'm guessing, we could maybe one of these times maybe we'll have an episode where we just kind of whine all the way through, but otherwise I think people probably enjoy the non-whining better. Katie: We can just have a bummer episode! Tim: Yeah, just a downer of an episode where we just air all our grievances about everything… Katie: We just talk in emo voice, just like…mwww…yeah, the web does actually kinda suuuuck… Tim: Yeah, exactly! I think this goes over well, I think this is maybe like a special Christmas edition. Katie: That is a really good idea. Tim: Right in time for the holidays. Katie: Christmas Bummer Episode! Tim: This is brilliant. That has to happen; I'm writing this down. Anyway, but glad to hear you're doing good now on this totally not Christmas at all episode. That's good. Katie: Yeah, on this summer-sunshine flip-flop fun-time episode! Tim: Yay! Katie: So, on the note of cool things, there's this episode from the Washington Post where in kind of a similar fashion, I know we talked a couple of months ago about Vox sort of declaring performance bankruptcy, Washington Post kinda did the same thing and talked about in an article the other day and that was pretty cool. They mentioned it sort of being in response to the instant articles and talking about just ads on news sites generally kind of sucky for performance, but I really liked this quite that it ended on that we have very little control over ads that load late or slowly but we wanted to make the core use experience as solid as possible because that is what we have control over and that's kind of a cool way to think about performance, just focusing on making good the core part that you do have control over. Tim: Yeah, and I think that's just generally awesome advice for anybody, because the ad work stuff comes up a lot and you have very little control over those third party ad networks and unfortunately a lot of them are super-slow right now but also essential for business but I like that they made the clear distinction between their core experience and understanding that the ads is just something you're going to have to tack on afterwards but mitigate the issues as much as possible. I think that's just really solid advice for any publisher. Katie: Yeah, absolutely. It's a nice article, it's a quick read; I recommend giving that a little skim or browse. Tim: Definitely. And then of course, Lara Hogan, who has made a habit out of writing good things over and over and over again or providing good performance advice in general, she wrote a post for A List Apart about showing performance; basically getting into some of the things she talked about way back in Episode 1 with us and also in her book about the importance of making performance visual: going into the dashboards and things like that, that they have up at Etsy and making sure that people can actually see the difference in performance. Katie: Yeah, she tweeted a little quick video a while ago and it might actually be in that article, I haven't had a chance to read it yet; it's on my to-do list but she posted a video of their video systems and it's really cool, it's really awesome to see that. Did I tell you that Lara, she talks about donuts all the time and donuts being her reward for good performance, achievements, good things like that, and when I saw Lara in New York a couple weeks ago, she took me to The Donut Spot that's in her neighborhood and I was so excited! Tim: Yeah, you told me. She's never taken me to The Donut Spot. I'm a little disappointed. I'm excited for you though: that sounds really cool. That's kind of… Katie: You know what? It was a really good donut because she says she's not a fan of the hipster donuts with a bunch of stupid toppings like cereal and candy bars and crap. Tim: Like the voodoo donuts thing in Portland? Katie: Yeah. These are just some straight-up home-town donuts in Brooklyn; I guess not really home-town but they were good! Tim: That's good. This is just like plain glazed? I want to know how far down the rabbit hole you went. Katie: We got banana…no, not banana: they were like custard-filled ones with the chocolate icing. I'm not a donut expert but those good ones! Tim: Gotcha, OK. That's a safe choice. Katie: Not the white sugary whipped cream-filled, the kind of yellowy-custard cream-filled ones; those are good ones. I don't know the distinction: is one cream and one custard? Is one icing and one cream? I don't know. Tim: I think it's usually like an icing and cream thing. Depending on where you go, it's almost like pure frosting is what it tastes like you're eating… Katie: Yeah, like you bite in and you're just like, oh my… Tim: Yeah, it's like there's frosting on the outside of the donut and frosting shoved down the inside as well and you just feel the cavities forming as you're eating them. It's great. It's a really good experience. But that's good. No, I did not…you did tell me this and that's very awesome, very cool. It's kinda like… Katie: Sorry; I'm obviously still thinking about that. Tim: I don't blame you. Katie: It was an experience. But, back to today's episode! We are talking to Sophie Shepherd and the big reason we wanted to get Sophie on here is not only because she's an awesome designer but because she has experience with working on products that are primarily used in developing countries that typically have the less than ideal device scenarios that we kind of always talk about in theory but she has some really great insight on talking a bout it in practice and actually designing for those devices and scenarios so it's going to be really interesting. Tim: Yeah, it'll be a nice fresh take, a different perspective than we usually get. Very cool. Katie: Cool. Well, let's go hear from Sophie. Katie: And we're back with Sophie Shepherd from Ushahidi. Sophie; can you tell us a little bit about Ushahidi and what exactly that is? Sophie: Sure. So, the what exactly it is, it's a Swahili word that means "Testimony". A lot of people are like, "Usha-what?" so it's not English so don't feel bad if you can't say it. And the company was founded in 2008 in Kenya so in 2008 what was happening in Kenya. there was an election that was fairly corrupt and there was quite a bit of violence broke out and some bloggers who were in Kenya and living in Kenya realized that they needed to do something to help out as well as just writing about what was happening, so they made a product in which people could submit reports of different places where the election was happening, different polling stations and this way they could say, there's been violence here, someone was killed here or this is a safe place where you can go to vote, or there's fraud happening. And what Ushahidi does is it takes all of these different reports and collects them into one place and provides a list and a map for them. So that's how it was founded; it's now a number of products but the name of our main platform is still Ushahidi and the purpose of it is still too collect data, crowd-source data. It's oftentimes gets mapped but isn't necessarily, we're re-doing the platform right now so that it's not only map data; it can really be anything that users submit. Katie: Awesome. So, spoiler alert, I know Sophie really well so I know the details of what she does and what really struck me and why I wanted to get her on the podcast so bad is because you deal a lot with users that are in places that have really poor connectivity and the products that you're designing are really crucial information that they need to get to. Can you talk a little bit about all of that and the challenges that you face when designing for that? Sophie: Sure. So, I think something that's really interesting is that it's not only poor connectivity but the kind of contexts in which people are using our products are unique. Not exclusively, but oftentimes they're used in crisis situations, so people don't have a whole lot of time. A lot of the time, the power could be down or internet could be down, so it's not only we have to think about connectivity but also ways that people are submitting information. This has been the first project I've worked on where it's not just, when we talk about performance, it's not just people needing to load something fast but it's about access and accessibility so, built into our product is people can anonymously text stuff in and that'll become a part of our system so it's really thinking about this whole ecosystem of access and ways of submitting information rather than just a website. Katie: Can you talk a little bit about what that means exactly, more than just a website? How else are you working around those connectivity and accessibility issues? Sophie: Yes, well, Ushahidi as a whole, not only with our platform but we have a lot of other companies that have spun out from the product itself, so there's a company Brick which is really, really awesome. It was founded by someone who was also a founder in Ushahidi and they make wifi devices that are super-rugged; they work off 3G connections so you can take those anywhere. We were in Kenya and they have all these attachments so it can be solar-powered wifi, so we had a group meeting in Kenya and we were all accessing the internet in the middle of nowhere on a beach from this device we had. So, it's thinking more about getting people information. Similarly we do a lot with SMS so if someone only has a phone they can text in a report or receive a response saying, OK, this has been confirmed, through their phone. Tim: This is fascinating stuff. I always think it's very interesting to hear the perspective outside of what we're used to in the little bubble that we get to live in here in the United States tech industry. This is taking everything in terms of the importance of building something that is going to work on different devices and the importance of building something that's going to perform well and this is really scaling up the importance of doing that, the vitality of doing that from just business metrics to, like you're saying, people's lives at stake in some of these cases. I'm curious; you mentioned being in Kenya and using those devices to get access. You can't obviously develop all the time in Kenya, so how are you finding ways to get that experience here, when you're building stuff from the United States so that you're feeling what it's going to be like on those, a 2G or a 3G connection or whatever it happens to be? Sophie: It's definitely a challenge for me because not only am I working every day on a really good connection but I've never really not had that; maybe five years ago my connection was not as good as it was now but I think I've always been as far as connection speeds in the one per cent, but we have a really great user advocacy team at Ushahidi so this is not only thinking about performance and website metrics, but we have a whole team that is dedicated to making sure that our users are satisfied, listening to what their needs are and responding in that way and also helping them, because this is a product that then gets extended and they can download it and set up their own deployments to use the product so we have a team that works really closely with people who are actually using it, which is terrific because we get a lot of feedback through that. Tim: I was going to say, are some of the team members in Kenya? Sophie: Uh-huh. Yeah, we have one person in Kenya, one person in Canada and then we have as part of, we have a specific user testing wing that's in Kenya but what they do is, since they are so in touch with people who use this stuff all over the world, they're good at being able to not only test it in Kenya but test it elsewhere and talk to…we have a large group using this stuff in Nepal right now because of the earthquake so they're in touch with them, checking that everything's working OK, getting any feedback from them. Katie: Do you tend to look at what specific devices the majority of users in these areas are using and start building and testing there or how does that work out? What's the size of an iPhone, that tends to be our default? What devices are you really thinking about in those areas? Sophie: It's interesting because right now, we are in the midst of re-building this product and so a lot of the people out there who are using it right now are using Version 2 which is the older version and at this point I don't even know how many years old it is but it's fairly outdated. It still works really well but it's not responsive; it's hard, we've noticed that quite a lot of people are using it on a desktop but that's only because it doesn't work very well on a phone so it'll be really interesting, we're launching the new one which is fully responsive and a lot more modern in this way to see how people end up using it. But it's tough because we can't say, iPhone users use this because it's used really everywhere in the world so maybe if it's used in the US it is going to be on an iPhone more, whereas elsewhere, it's Android but we try to cast a really wide net so there's an Android app that will be used for collecting information, you can submit by SMS. The new version's going to be totally responsive so what we try to do is not really focus on one but make sure that everyone can use it. Katie: So, you've been working on a responsive re-design and everything we've talked about has been the poor connectivity and all of that. How has performance played into those decisions when building this site or the product again for this new version? Sophie: It's a continuous consideration and process of checks and balances. One thing is that, thinking about images: part of this new system is we're able to have people submit images as part of their reports so that's something that we still have not quite figured out how we should work with how to then deliver those back to people and also thinking about different JavaScript libraries that we're using. It's a constant balance, so I think we're still figuring it out. We've done quite a bit of user-testing but more UX user-testing but the application itself is not totally done, it hasn't been built yet, so I think that's to come in terms of optimizing how it's going to work exactly. But from the design and front-end, we've definitely been keeping things really light and really the only question that we have is how we're going to treat images. Tim: Is it primarily a matter of using them or not using them or is it a degree of compression in terms of getting them to a point where maybe they're a little pixilated and ugly but they're balanced: the trade-off is that they're going to perform well on those types of networks? What are you battling with, with the images? Sophie: Well, I think basically every single image that is ever going to be on the site is going to be submitted by a user, so we don't know exactly the sizes of images that are going to come in and then at what point we are then going to compress them or shrink them and how we're going to do that and then how they're going to then be delivered back out. Yeah. Tim: So it's getting a system in place for all the user-generated content? Sophie: Exactly, yes. Tim: Gotcha. OK. Katie: So, you talk a lot about style guides and patter libraries and Sophie I know that's how you like to design and work. What is that process looking like? Do you do testing as you go on designs and see how performing it is or how fast it's loading under those different circumstances? Can you just talk a little bit about your design thinking? Sophie: Yeah. What we have been doing is we did all the UX fairly separately, thinking about just user flows and how things were going to be laid out and how things should work and then we did some visual design and then we started combining these by building the pattern library, so we took out patterns from visual design and eventually we've just started building templates and designing in the browser because we have enough of these patterns to build upon and it's been really great; this is the first time that I've worked in this way and what I really love about it is that each of our patterns and components basically stand on their own so it's really easy to look at them and understand exactly where certain weights are coming from. By designing modularly, we can pull those out rather than seeing a page as a whole and not really understand what's causing what. Tim: In a prior episode, we were talking to Jeff Lembeck of Filament Group and he mentioned what he called the "Jank Tank" which is this big box of basically ugly, horrible, slow devices. Considering how wide the net you're spreading, do you have anything similar? Is there a Ushahidi Jank Tank that you guys go to? Sophie: There isn't, but I love that idea. Tim: Yeah, I think we were fans of that too. Sophie: Is it like…what does he mean exactly? Tim: The idea was having… Sophie; …lowest common denominator kind of devices? Time: Yeah, basically grabbing cheap devices or old devices and firing those up: things that are going to be maybe a few years old and are probably going to be a huge challenge to make things feel fluid and work well on those and you have those handy to test them out and see what honestly might be a more typical user would experience than the high end stuff. Sophie: Yeah, we don't have that here in the States; I feel bad calling it a Jank Tank because that's negative-sounding, but in the office in Kenya, they have…they all work in a building and there's quite a few tech companies that work in there and they have something like a Mobile Device Lab and I think it was sponsored by a mobile company there but I was there earlier in the year and it kind of blew my mind; I put a picture of it on Twitter that we can refer to in the Speaker Notes. But that was all of these phones that were phones that I hadn't even necessarily seen, that they don't sell in the States, and they're all used for testing so at some point probably now that I'm talking about it, I'm realizing we should do it sooner rather than later, they have a whole testing lab there that we can test this product on. Tim: Nice. A mobile device lab does admittedly sound a little bit more ??? serious. Katie: Everything that you're saying sounds like, just tying in that accessibility and performance are going hand in hand and it sounds like you've just learned a great deal of empathy in your time there. Is that true and has that influenced your design? Sophie: Yeah, definitely. I think something that has really changed in my mind is thinking about when doing the design, what actions are people going to want to take, so I think that goes with performance too: if we can only load this one button that says "submit a report" and skip all of the images then that's the most important thing, so, really thinking about where to guide people and what the most important and crucial actions are before loading and everything else, so as a designer that's been definitely something that, previously I was doing client work and it was like we had this long list of requirements that we had to fit in and now it's kind of re-assessing and re-prioritizing what requirements actually are and having different levels of this is the one thing they need to really use this app and then here's all of this other helpful stuff that could be called crucial but isn't actually life or death crucial. Katie: That's really interesting. Do you think that there's any way that, for those of us still working on client projects, to have those conversations with the client to try to be like, "no, really, but the marketing video isn't truly required"; exercises in priority and stuff: do you have any tips for paring down those requirements? Sophie: I think it's tough if your talking to a marketing person because they'd be like, "no, literally I'm going to die if I don't get this on there." Katie: And you're like, "no, literally, people are on our products like…" Sophie: Yeah. I think any time it's easier to say, "does this go above this in the priority list" people are willing to answer that question rather than either or. So, in general, communicating and deciding things I would recommend ordering rather than choosing people to sacrifice things. Tim: And it seems like that's clarified too in, I would guess one of the reasons why it works so well where you are is because that task, if you're looking at what the most important thing for the user to do is, it's so very clear and so very critical whereas on maybe on a more traditional thing where you're working with marketers or whatever, they may not have as clear a sense of, what is the ultimate purpose of this site? And then it becomes a lot harder to do the prioritization without that. Sophie: Yeah; it's funny because we're in the process right now of re-designing the company site as well as re-designing the product itself and it shouldn't be, because there's no life or death, but it's so much more complicated to prioritize stuff on the company site because there's so many different types of audiences and services that it needs to provide whereas on the app itself, it's pretty clear to say, what's the most important action for someone to take. Tim: Within the new site, do you still have to take into consideration a lot of the same sort of constraints in terms of the different devices and connectivity because that's who your audience is that you're marketing to, or are you marketing to a different group through the site? Sophie: Yeah, the site will be, well that's up for debate; that's I think what we're still trying to figure out. I think by default it's a good idea to not ever say, "oh well only people in the States with nice phones are going to look at this" just because that's a dangerous attitude to have, but it's possibly less of priority for the site itself. Tim: So, going back to prioritizing performance within the actual apps and stuff that you're doing: did you have set targets that you were looking at when you were working V3 of this? Were there hard-set goals; we are not going to go over this amount of weight or we are not going to take longer than this for the map of data to appear or anything like that? Sophie: Yeah, so we set a performance budget and we've set a few of them; we set one for the front-end so what we've done is build this pattern library and we have all of our, we're calling them "weight-outs" which are basically our different views within the app itself. So we had an initial goal for that, that we've met and then we set a separate one for the build itself and that's still in process, so hopefully we can get around that target. I like this too because instead of having one end-goal we can really check as we go. Tim: Yeah, it's nice to have it broken down like that. Can we ask what the targets are, just out of curiosity? Sophie: I can look them up but I don't know them right now. Tim: That's fine. Just curious. Was it in terms of the weight or is it a different sort of, more like an experience-focused metric or anything like that, that you're targeting? Sophie: Yeah, we did a weight and a load time. Tim: Gotcha. OK. Katie: It sounds like you've worked in some of the perceived performance thinking too when you're saying, what's the critical information to load first. Sophie: Yeah, for me as a designer, that's definitely something that I can relate to more and I think in some ways it's possibly more important. I think they work as a team but… Tim: I think it is. And I think that's…I think or I hope that that's what, within the performance community, the people who really that's what they do focus on, I think that that's where everything is starting to, we're starting to wake up to that and certainly to shift towards understanding that it really is about the experience and making sure that the critical things are coming in, whatever the top task, whatever the most important features are on the page or coming in and measuring those sorts of things, instead of this blind race to the finish that we've kind of had in the past. Sophie: Yeah. I'm curious to see how that thinking changes because I love the idea of a performance budget but I think sometimes it can be a little limiting and you wouldn't want to sacrifice certain things just to fit into the performance budget. Not limiting, but I think it's very concrete whereas it should be a fairly fluid depending on context of the site itself. Tim: Sure, yeah, it doesn't dictate what goes on; it's another consideration or it's part of another piece in the puzzle. Sophie: Right. At the same time, it's the easiest way to communicate goals. Tim: True. It's hard to without it having a hard set thing, it's very hard, yeah. Sophie: Yeah, until you have the design done, you can't say, OK, our goal is that this is going to load and then this is going to load this much later. It helps to have a number that everyone can refer back to. Katie: So, when you say for everyone to communicate, who is that? Is that between you and the developers? Is this something that your leadership is really that's close to their heart as well? Sophie: Yeah, I think when I said that it was more coming from my experience with client work, where you're using this number as a kind of tactic to force a client to decide on certain things. For us, since we're all working internally, I think definitely any…basically, everyone wants to see it be as fast as it possibly can, so we're all working towards the same thing. Katie: Is there ever a push-back to even like, "OK, now that we've hit that, let's try another goal that's even faster"? Sophie: Not yet, because we haven't launched it, but I wouldn't be surprised if we launch it and get certain feedback that it wasn't loading or it wasn't working quite right on something. I'm really curious to see once it's out there and people are using it, how people respond. Katie: Yeah, I'm really curious to see what metrics you find out from that. Tim: Did you make a distinction…there's the cutting the mustard approach that the BBC popularized which is the core experience goes to maybe older, less capable browsers/devices and the enhanced experience goes to everybody else. One of the things that that fails at, or that doesn't take into consideration which seems like it would be really important for Ushahidi is the situation where you have somebody is on a very nice device but the connectivity is really awful. Did you have to make any distinction between different experiences or do you just have one experience and that experience itself is extremely lightweight, no matter what the scenario is? Was that enough for you to accomplish or you needed to do? Sophie: Yeah, that's funny; we had our company retreat in Kenya so it was I think maybe about half, maybe a little less of our company is in the US so we all went there with our snazzy iPhones and still couldn't connect to anything and it really, I think in terms of empathy, made us realize: oh, wait a second. But in terms of yeah, I think we're just going to try to make it fast for everyone. We don't have a whole lot of enhancements for people on quicker systems yet. Katie: When you were in Kenya, were there any things that were especially awful to try to load, like you're used to just being part of your everyday life? I'm just curious. Sophie: I remember reading Twitter, on the Twitter app and everything loaded except for the pictures and it made you realize just how often people supplement their tweets with pictures; I remember getting really frustrated about it. Katie: That's interesting. Sophie: But I didn't even really try to do a lot of stuff because it really didn't look very well. Same thing on Instagram; it's like sometimes this progressive loading thing; I would rather it not load at all than, oh, I see all of these people posted great pictures that I can't look at. I'd rather not know than… Katie: Or like the tweets having fomo, oh, you had a joke and I can't see the punch-line! Sophie: Exactly! Katie: That's really interesting because when we're just designing here in a bubble it's like, "well I think that would be fine for you to just know that it's there but not see it" but then when you're actually using it, you're like: no, this sucks. Sophie: Yeah, it's like actively frustrating. Tim: How often do you get to Kenya? Sophie: I'm new to the company; I've only been here since the beginning of the year but I think they do a retreat every year but not necessarily always in Kenya; I think every other year it's in Kenya. And I think other people on the team, it depends, we'll do these what we call Hit Team Meetings because everyone is remote and then mini-teams will get together and all work together for a week so those have been all over the place since people live on opposite ends of the world, depending on who's meeting they usually choose a place that is fairly central for everyone to get to. Katie: We'll start to have a list of sites, Sophie, how much is this really crappy, wherever you end up going… Sophie: How long does this take? Katie: Look it up and tell me how much it sucks. Sophie: It is cool to have people on the team everywhere for that reason. Tim: Sure, I bet that gives you a really nice overall picture of a whole bunch of different landscapes from a technical perspective. Sophie: Yeah. Katie: I know, I didn't prepare a list of questions like I should have! Tim: It's all right, I'm actually having a lot of fun just going off the cuff on this, knowing almost nothing. I did a little bit of research and I had heard of Ushahidi from this big fat book about mobile on a global scale that was put out a couple of years ago. Sophie: That's cool. What was that book? Tim: It's called Global Mobile. It's six hundred pages and each chapter is written by a different author on a different topic and I think Ushahidi came up twice… Sophie: Oh, that's awesome. Tim: …in the book. Sophie: Do you know what they referenced or what it was…. Tim: One was just talking about how…I don't remember one of the references in much detail. The other one I know that they were talking about a variety of different mobile technological solutions that were out there; I think they were focused primarily on Africa in that chapter or similar areas and they were talking about the different services that are making use of technologies that we might consider a little bit more simple, but they're doing really powerful things with it and so I think that they were focused on the SMS aspect, if I remember right. Sophie: Yeah, it's been definitely challenging, but also interesting that designing a product that is not used for one specific thing; it's very much user-focused and people will download it and decide how they use it, so it's been a challenge to design for that and to keep it well designed but also really, really flexible. Tim: Which is why I guess it's so important I guess that you are getting a chance to experience at least a little bit every once in a while because everybody talks about front-end design perspective, from a development perspective, how important it is to put yourself in your user's shoes and when you're talking about what Ushahidi is dealing with, and it's not just the devices or the browser or the connections: it's the situations; it's just so hard. It's so hard to put yourself in those sorts of shoes and understand what it must feel like to use the application or the site in those sorts of scenarios; that's such a huge challenge. Sophie: Yeah, there's no way that, well it sounds selfish saying it, but hopefully there's no way I would ever actually be able to experience that but I think that is why we have such a strong and valuable user advocacy team so that they can really communicate with them when people are in those situations and as they're using it in those situations. Tim: Do you get feedback from the users that are pertaining directly to things like how quickly they're able to report something or how quickly they're able to get access to the data that's been reported, in terms of it takes too long sort of a thing, not just a usability thing but from a performance perspective? Sophie: We haven't. Or not that I know of. Tim: Well, maybe that means you're doing an awesome job! Sophie: We'll see. It's also tough because the new version is yet to be used on a wide…by a lot of people, so we'll see, but it is great because we have the product is also open source, so we have a lot of community submissions and ideas so this is again the first time I've worked on something like that where I'll just be in my normal task list that we use internally as a team and I will get one from…I'm in Katmandu and this thing is not working; can you add this? So it is really cool to see that people care about improving the product. Tim: That's awesome. Katie: Is there anything that you've learned from going through this process and being hit with all of these pretty heavy design constraints that are just, oh man, there's no way I can ignore that. Has that changed your view on design, even outside of this product in particular? Sophie: I think that this has, compared to how I used to design, I'm keeping things a lot more simple, not even necessarily visually; visually as well but also just in how they work and not trying to dictate how something should work. Oftentimes we'll, with other people in my design team or sometimes with our developers, we'll discuss how something, spend hours doing flows and then just realizing, why don't we just let people do what they want to do and take a step back and not define so much how this should be used, so I think just the fact that so many different people are using it for different ways, I've found that it's often best to leave things open and then to not over-complicate them. Katie: Is that kind of freeing? Sophie: Errr….it's been difficult because I'm so used to not being like that. But yeah, kind of. For me as a designer it's been kind of hard to let go of control. Katie: Yeah, that's usually I think our downfall as designers is wanting to control everything and that's kind of a big part about embracing performance too: it just sounds boring to design for performance, even though it's not and it's just like anything else. Sophie: Yeah, I think that I talked to ??? about this a long, long time ago and I remember it's stuck with me in terms of performance but also it's kind of user advocacy side of design, which is that it's not in conflict with the design; you shouldn't think of performance as taking away from visual design but it's just a piece of design so it's just another aspect of UX and if it loads faster, then that'll make the design better. Katie; It means you did your job well! Sophie. Yeah, exactly. Tim: At the end of the day it's about, especially in your case, but at the end of the day it's really about how quickly can the people using the site or the application get the task done that they came to the site to do and so that makes performance comes right up front and center along with any other bit of the process really, information architecture, clear content structure and good visual design; it all contributes. Sophie: That's what design is, right? Getting people to be able to do what they want as easily as possible. Katie: Is this something that you were thinking about before having these experiences in these other parts of the world, or was that the eye-opener of, oh-whoa, my designs should encapsulate this? Sophie: Yeah, I think it's always something theoretically that I could be like, your designs have to load really fast, of course, but selfishly I've always wanted them to look really cool or try out some latest thing that's trending on the web. So I think it's helped me step out and realize I'm not designing this for me. If I want to try something, I can just do it on my own site. Katie: So, I'm wondering if that's maybe the first step for designers that are not wanting to think about it… Sophie: Make them design something for someone in crisis. Katie: Yeah! Sophie: At an agency, every junior designer has to design for… Tim: Oh man! Sophie: …life or death situations. Katie: It's part of the interview process, you need to whiteboard a crisis design. Sophie: Yeah! Tim: Talk about no pressure right off the gate, that's what you're dealing with! Sophie: Have either of you seen Eric Meyer's presentation? Tim: I have not, but I've heard it's excellent. Sophie: I really want to. Katie: I want to see it as well. Sophie: It sounds really… Katie: Everything you are talking about is making we think of that. Sophie: I would really, really love to hear, I don't know if he would…he could be a good guest on the podcast just to talk about his experience. Tim: Yeah, I'd love to talk to Eric. I've heard the presentation is just fantastic but I haven't had a chance to catch it live. I don't know if it's recorded or not anywhere but if so, I haven't seen it. Katie; I think if any of you want come hang out in Ohio, I believe I would have to double-check, but I think he's giving that Rustbelt Refresh in Cleveland in September. Tim: I do like that conference. I did that last year, it's a lot of fun. Katie: So, you want to come hang out in Ohio and see it? Tim: Sunny Cleveland! Katie: Where the lake caught on fire! Sophie: Oh my God! Tim: I don't think I heard this. Katie; I think it was before I ever lived in Ohio, ten or so years ago. It may have been the river, it may have been the lake, I can't remember. One of them was so polluted that it caught on fire at some point. (45:11) Tim: That sounds a lovely! Sophie: That's terrifying! Tim: My only knowledge of Cleveland, which I think is probably upsetting and insulting to all people who live in Cleveland… Katie: Drew Carey Tim: Yep. So, I apologize for that! Sophie: I've been to Cleveland; I spent two weeks in Cleveland. Katie: What? Sophie: I was going through, you know, being young and wanting to work for Obama during the election but even then, I don't know what's in Cleveland, even after spending time there. Katie: I have been to Cleveland twice and I don't know. I live two hours from it; I couldn't tell you what's in Cleveland. Sophie: Really cheap houses if I remember; lots of empty, cheap houses! Katie: One time I tried out to be on The Price is Right this is when Drew Carey was the host and because I am really bad at being like, wooow, cookie-crazy person to be on The Price is Right, they interview every person that goes through the process and like, "why should we pick you?" and my only response was just like, "I'm from Ohio. Just like Drew. Cleveland Rocks, right?" Sophie: Certainly good for TV. Katie: Yeah, well, we'll talk about Ohio. Obviously I did not make it! Tim: That's sad! Sophie: There's still hope; you could try again. Tim: Don't give up on that. Katie: No, that was actually…. Sophie: Don't give up on your dreams. Tim: No, you've got to follow through. Katie: That was horrific; you're just like cattle being herded for six hours through this line as they interview every single person that goes in the thing, so if you're ever in LA and thinking, it would be fun to go on The Price is Right: it's not. Sophie: Think again! Katie: Sophie, you never did that when you lived there? Sophie: A lot of people I knew did. Katie: Did anyone ever get picked? Sophie: They did it…I grew up in LA and they filmed Jeopardy I think right next to my High School and they would do it as a fundraising thing where you would…they'd get a group things of tickets to Jeopardy and then the cheerleading squad or whoever would try to sell them individually. Katie: Whoa! Sophie: That's the closest I've gotten. Katie: Growing up in LA sounds wildly different from anywhere else! Was it? Sophie: We didn't have any lakes that lit on fire! Katie: Wasn't your High School the one from Grease? Sophie: Yep! Katie: Oh man. Sophie: And Party of Five. Is that what that show was called? Katie: Yeah. Tim: That's kinda cool. Katie: I'm more interested in Rydell High though. Sophie: I think they filmed it in partially different schools but the stadium was our stadium. Katie: The track where Danny's trying to be a jock and running around? Sophie: Yeah, yeah. Katie: Aw man, that's the worst part when Danny's trying to be a jock! Sophie: Wonder Years. Wonder Years, that's the block I grew up on. Katie: Really? Sophie: Yep. Katie: Dang, you have Wonder Years, Alison has Dawson's Creek. Sophie: Dawson's Creek. Way before my time. Katie: I want to grow up on a teen drama! Sophie: The Yellow Brick Road was also the street, from the Wizard of Oz. Tim: Where was the Yellow Brick Road? Sophie: Before the houses were built, they filmed it on the street that my house was on. Tim: What? Sophie: And then years later, they had a reunion for all of the oompa-loompas that I accidentally walked on and I was sort of….what? Katie: Were they dressed up? Sophie: No. Tim: Wait, wait, wait…you just said oompa-loompas, but isn't that…that's Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, right? Sophie: Not oompa-loompas. Munchkins! The Munchkins! Tim: I was like, wait a minute… Katie: Glad you got that 'cos I didn't! Sophie: I didn't either, I was like, this sounds right. Tim: Yeah, OK, I just wanted to clarify which movie it was. Sophie: Can we cut this out? We're going to get complaints from Little People of America organization. Tim: Yeah, that's fine. Actually we could use a few complaints. We haven't got many or any yet. Katie: Thanks for bringing it up. Now we're going to….well, if you're looking for feedback, let me tell you...you can lay off the chit-chat. Tim: We've gotten plenty, plenty of negative feedback and complaints so please don't bother sending those emails or letters. There, that should… Katie: I'm going to write you a strongly worded letter about your podcast! Tim: It happens. Sophie: This really went off the rails! Tim: It did, but you know what? That's cool. That's all right. I feel like… (50:03) Katie: It was getting really heavy, so you know we to lighten it up. Tim: It was, we had to lighten it up and I feel like it's kind of weird that we had gone this far without talking about Drew Carey so, you know, however many episodes we're into this and Drew Carey had never come up; seems wrong. Katie: Really? Sophie: Give us some Drew Carey facts, Katie! Katie: Actually, well I don't know any Drew Carey facts but I'm sure Tim has lots because that seems like that's your era of TV. Tim: I'm not that old, all right? Katie: Yeah, but Everybody Loves Raymond, you'll never… Tim: Yeah, I actually had…. Sophie: Are you Everybody? Tim: No, no. Am I? Sophie: Do you love Raymond? Tim: I do love Raymond; I do. It was a good show, all right? It was a good show. Under-appreciated by the current generation! Sophie: It was the most popular show ever at the time. Tim: It was really popular; really popular. Sophie: Did you just watch it on multiple TVs over and over again to up the ratings? Tim: Errr…. Katie: He had it going on every TV in the house, the whole day and night! Sophie: The syndication too so they're getting those checks, all from Tim! Katie: Tim loves Raymond! Sophie: New TV show! Tim: All right, all right; neither one of you are ever invited back on this podcast; even you, Katie. That's it, that's the end of it. I'm going to go start my own podcast where we're going to talk about Everybody Loves Raymond and The Drew Carey Show and things like that. Katie: Indiana Jones Tim: Indiana Jones, yep. This really did get off the rails. My gosh! Sophie: Yeah, feel weird going back to talking about crisis. Tim: So, well, you know, maybe we don't, there was a lot of really good, like Katie said, it was getting really serious and really awesome discussion, I think, around performance and it was really cool to hear somebody who is coming at it from that global perspective which, it's just not something that we commonly think about a lot, for most of us aren't dealing with on a day to day basis, so it's really interesting to have somebody come in and burst the bubble a little bit and give us a broader perspective. Katie: Yeah, it's great because I think like you said, Sophie, earlier: in theory everybody's like, it's nice and stuff and obviously we talk a lot about performance and everything and it's one of those things that I think everybody is like, yeah, yeah, in theory yeah, we want it to be fast because we don't want to be shamed by Twitter, but… Sophie: Other web designers! Katie: Yeah, basically. So it's great for you to come in here and give us the perspective of what that actually means and hopefully shed some light on that empathy. Sophie: Yeah, thank you for having me. Katie: Yeah, thank you so much for joining us. Tim: Going forward, it anybody wants to follow along and hear more about what Ushahidi's doing or about what you're doing, how do they do that? Sophie: For Ushahidi, I would recommend following Ushahidi on Twitter, ushahidi.com for a lot of information about all their different products and blogposts and then for me, my website is sophieshepherd.com Tim: Very cool. Katie: What about any social media that you may have because, I might be biased, but I think Sophie you have a pretty good account that's pretty funny! Sophie: My Twitter unfortunately is sophshepherd, because there's a British teenager named Sophie Shepherd who took that from me. So, don't follow her unless you want to hear a lot of complaining about tests and boyfriends. Katie: Do you follow her? Sophie: Occasionally! Then I get too mad about it and then I think, what if they think it's me? Katie: Is she also blonde and kind of looks like you? Sophie: Yeah, I've sent her a message; she does kind of. I sent her a message on Facebook once and she went, what are you freak? And then that was it. Katie; Really? Sophie: Yep. Katie: She called you a freak? Sophie: Yeah. I'll put a screenshot in our speaker notes! Katie: OK, well follow the real Sophie Shepherd then. Sophie: Yep. Tim: Well, thank you and we'll definitely have to have you on again to discuss because I feel like there's a lot more we could get into in terms of Drew Carey and Ray Romano, so in a future episode. Katie: You can do that on your separate…Everyone Loves Ray. Tim: And Tim Loves Raymond. Yeah, that's good. It'll be the initial episode. Sophie:: Tim and Ray. All right. Thanks. Bye. Tim: Thanks; bye. Katie: Thanks. Bye. Tim: Thank you for listening to this episode of The Path to Performance podcast. You can subscribe to the podcast through iTunes or on our site pathtoperf.com; you can also follow along on Twitter @pathtoperf. We'd love to hear what you thought so feel free to drop us a note on Twitter or leave a raving and overly kind review on iTunes. We like to read those. And if you'd like to talk about being a guest or sponsoring a future episode, feel free to email us at hello@pathtoperf.com

  SecuraBit  Episode 65: Application Security From the Ground Up!September 8, 2010 Hosts:Anthony Gartner – @anthonygartnerJason Mueller  – @securabit_jayChristopher Mills –  @thechrisamGuests:Jeff Morgan * Product manager for HP’s Application Security Center product line * 20+ years experience developing commercial software solutions in industries ranging from healthcare to payroll to commercial printing * Joined SPI Dynamics in 2006, which was later acquired by HP * Previously a software engineer and held positions in development, QA, support and account management General topics:  Application Security Development Lifecycle Flash, as usual NoScript Intel and McAfee Upcoming eventsHacker Halted http://www.hackerhalted.com/ Tim Is speaking October 14thLouisivlle Infosec 10/7. http://www.louisvilleinfosec.com/Atlanta B-Sides 10/8. http://www.securitybsides.com/BSidesAtlantaHacKid - http://www.hackid.org/ 10/9-10/10Phreaknic 10/15. http://www.phreaknic.info/pn14/ SecTor 2010 - http://www.sector.ca/ Security Training October 25. Conference Sessions October 26 & 27, 2010.Links:http://securabit.com HP Application Security CenterChat with us on IRC at irc.freenode.net #securabit  

SecuraBit  Episode 64:  A whole lot of organized crime going on! August 25, 2010 Hosts: Anthony Gartner – @anthonygartner http://anthonygartner.com Chris Gerling  – @chrisgerling Andrew Borel –  @andrew_secbit Guests: Bryan Sartin - Director of Investigative Response at Verizon Business General topics: Verizon RISK Team - http://www.verizonbusiness.com/products/security/risk/ Bryan Sartin, the Director of Investigative Response at Verizon Business, discusses the 2010 Verizon Data Breach Report http://www.verizonbusiness.com/resources/reports/rp_2010-data-breach-report_en_xg.pdf VERIS Framework - https://verisframework.wiki.zoho.com/ MalCon: A Call for ‘Ethical Malcoding’ http://krebsonsecurity.com/2010/08/malcon-a-call-for-ethical-malcoding/ SecTor 2010 - http://www.sector.ca/ Security Training October 25. Conference Sessions October 26 & 27, 2010. The real iTunes fraud vulnerability: Gullible users - http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-20014481-37.html Upcoming events Hacker Halted http://www.hackerhalted.com/ Tim Is speaking October 14th Louisivlle Infosec 10/7. http://www.louisvilleinfosec.com/ Atlanta B-Sides 10/8. http://www.securitybsides.com/BSidesAtlanta HacKid - http://www.hackid.org/ 10/9-10/10 Phreaknic 10/15. http://www.phreaknic.info/pn14/ Links: http://securabit.com Chat with us on IRC at irc.freenode.net #securabit iTunes Podcast - http://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/securabit/id280048405 iPhone App Now Available - http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/securabit-mobile/id382484512?mt=8

SecuraBit Episode 63:  Walking to the Waffle House with Andy Willingham August 11, 2010 Hosts: Anthony Gartner – @anthonygartner http://anthonygartner.com Chris Gerling  – @chrisgerling Christopher Mills – @thechrisam Jason Mueller – @securabit_jay Andrew Borel –  @andrew_secbit Guests: Andy Willingham (Southern Fried Security Podcast) - @andywillingham http://www.andyitguy.com/blog/ General topics: DEFCON/BLACKHAT/BSides Recap --Chris’s experience this year, and a review of the medical facilities in Las Vegas --General entertaining banter Shiny Old VxWorks Vulnerabilities http://blog.metasploit.com/2010/08/vxworks-vulnerabilities.html Facebook name extraction based on email/wrong password http://seclists.org/fulldisclosure/2010/Aug/130 Apple Fixes PDF Vunerability that allowed webbased Jail Break. iOS 4.0.2 Software Update http://support.apple.com/kb/DL1061 Interview with Andy Willingham ShmooCon 2011 Dates Announced http://tinyurl.com/29nzc46 Microsoft drops the patch bomb http://www.securabit.com/2010/08/10/microsoft-drops-the-patch-bomb/ Andriod Malware and Unexpected Features http://crave.cnet.co.uk/mobiles/android-gets-its-first-texting-malware-50000303/ Free Android antivirus clocks up 2.5m downloads http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/08/11/free_android_security_app/ A Review of Verizon and Google's Net Neutrality Proposal http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2010/08/google-verizon-netneutrality Upcoming events South Florida ISSA’s Hack the flag and chili cook-off  Saturday August 14, 2010 from 12:00pm - 5:00pm http://sfissa.org/index.php/sfissa-mm-events/htf-main/85-hack-the-flag-2010 Hacker Halted http://www.hackerhalted.com/ Tim Is speaking October 14th Louisivlle Infosec 10/7. http://www.louisvilleinfosec.com/ Atlanta B-Sides 10/8. http://www.securitybsides.com/BSidesAtlanta HacKid - http://www.hackid.org/ 10/9-10/10 Phreaknic 10/15. http://www.phreaknic.info/pn14/ Links: http://www.securabit.com Chat with us on IRC at irc.freenode.net #securabit iTunes Podcast - http://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/securabit/id280048405 iPhone App Now Available - http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/securabit-mobile/id382484512?mt=8

SecuraBit  Episode 62: Visualizing Data with NetWitnessHosts:Anthony Gartner – @anthonygartner http://anthonygartner.comChris Gerling  – @chrisgerlingChristopher Mills – @thechrisamAndrew Borel –  @andrew_secbitGuests:Eddie Schwartz - @eddieschwartzGeneral topics:BSidesLV http://www.securitybsides.com/BSidesLasVegasBlackHat https://www.blackhat.com/html/bh-us-10/bh-us-10-home.htmlDefcon https://www.defcon.org/html/defcon-18/dc-18-schedule.htmlShmoocon Woot Video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJ0ypgZU_D0NetWitness Visualize http://visualize.netwitness.com/Brief panel on certifications.iPhone App Now Available. http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/securabit-mobile/id382484512?mt=8http://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/securabit/id280048405Upcoming eventsSouth Florida ISSA’s Hack the flag and chili cook-off  Saturday August 14, 2010 from 12:00pm - 5:00pmhttp://sfissa.org/index.php/sfissa-mm-events/htf-main/85-hack-the-flag-2010Hacker Halted http://www.hackerhalted.com/ Tim Is speaking October 14thLinks:http://securabit.comChat with us on IRC at irc.freenode.net #securabitiTunes Podcast - http://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/securabit/id280048405iPhone App Now Available - http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/securabit-mobile/id382484512?mt=8

SecuraBit Episode 61: Reverse Engineering Malware with a Spider Monkey Hosts: Christopher Mills – @thechrisam Andrew Borel –  @andrew_secbit Tim Krabec – @tkrabec http://www.SMBMinute.com Nicholas Berthaume -- @nberthaume https://www.bordergatewayprotocol.net Anthony Gartner – @anthonygartner http://anthonygartner.com Guests: Guest: Lenny Zeltser - @lennyzeltser http://zeltser.com/ General topics: Reverse Engineering Malware New Linux Distro to analyze malware REMnux: A Linux Distribution for Reverse-Engineering Malware http://zeltser.com/remnux/ Based on Ubuntu Released just 5 days ago - July 8, 2010 2500 Downloads so far VMWare appliance Live Distro going out to Source Forge soon Enlightenment as window manager, (no gnome or kde) Just what you need to do the analysis Lightweight as possible Tools Emulate Services Allow malware to interact with your own resources how does it differ from CW Sandbox Determine the signs of comprise to compare with your production environment JS Unpack Since it is an Ubuntu distro, you can roll a custom version for your environment or lab. Intrigrrated into the Reverse Engining Malware course from SANS SANS Digital Forensics Summit The state of people relying on only antivirus for protection. The innovator's dilemma http://www.amazon.com/Innovators-Dilemma-Revolutionary-Business-Essentials/dp/0060521996 Microsoft Security Essentials http://www.microsoft.com/security_essentials/ http://www.sans.org/vlive/ Forensics 610: Reverse-Engineering Malware: Malware Analysis Tools and Techniques SANS vLive! FOR610 - 201001 - Monday, July 26, 2010 - Thursday, August 26, 2010 http://www.sans.org/vlive/details.php?nid=20668 Upcoming events: BSidesLV http://www.securitybsides.com/BSidesLasVegas BlackHat https://www.blackhat.com/html/bh-us-10/bh-us-10-home.html Defcon https://www.defcon.org/html/defcon-18/dc-18-schedule.html Tim is speaking http://defcon.org/html/defcon-18/dc-18-speakers.html#PanelHTF Tim is also doing a skytalks schedule http://sudux.com/skytalks_web.jpg Hacker Halted http://www.hackerhalted.com/ Tim Is speaking October 14th South Florida ISSA’s Hack the flag and chili cookoff  Saturday August 14, 2010 from 12:00pm - 5:00pm http://sfissa.org/index.php/sfissa-mm-events/htf-main/85-hack-the-flag-2010 These are the upcoming security cons and where you can find those of us that will be attending starting in less than two weeks. Links: Chat with us on IRC at irc.freenode.net #securabit