Podcasts about fenzi

In this episode, Chantal and Angelique sit down with Dr. Amy Cook, creator of The Play Way—a therapeutic approach that utilizes social, toy-free play to help shy and fearful dogs build confidence, reduce reactivity, and foster trust.We explore:The Science Behind Social Play: How interactive play can serve as a powerful tool in behavior modification, especially for dogs experiencing fear and anxiety. ​Applicability to Behavior Issues: Identifying which behavioral challenges benefit most from The Play Way and understanding its limitations.​Initiating Play: Techniques to respectfully invite play, ensuring the dog feels safe and in control.​Elements of Therapeutic Play: Breaking down the components that make play a successful intervention.​Tailoring Play to Individual Dogs: Adjusting play styles to suit high-energy breeds versus more reserved dogs, and strategies for engaging dogs unfamiliar with play, such as rescues.​Common Mistakes and Assessing Readiness: Recognizing pitfalls in implementing The Play Way and determining when a dog is prepared to engage, particularly if they're fearful or shut down.​Dr. Cook also shares her perspective on misconceptions in dog behavior and provides information on accessing her Play Way course or other online Fenzi courses for those interested in learning more.

Summary In this week's episode Anna (https://x.com/AnnaRRose) and Nico (https://x.com/nico_mnbl) chat with Alessandro Chiesa (https://ic-people.epfl.ch/~achiesa/), Associate Professor at EPFL and Eylon Yogev (https://eylonyogev.com/), Professor at Bar-Ilan University. They discuss their recent publication; Building Cryptographic Proofs from Hash Functions (https://snargsbook.org/), which provides a comprehensive and rigorous treatment of cryptographic proofs and goes on to analyze notable constructions of SNARGs based on ideal hash functions. Here's some additional links for this episode: Building Cryptographic Proofs from Hash Functions by Chiesa and Yogev (https://snargsbook.org/) Episode 200: SNARK Research & Pedagogy with Alessandro Chiesa (https://zeroknowledge.fm/episode-200-snark-research-pedagogy-with-alessandro-chiesa/) Barriers for Succinct Arguments in the Random Oracle Model by Chiesa and Eylon Yogev (https://eprint.iacr.org/2020/1427.pdf) STIR: Reed–Solomon Proximity Testing with Fewer Queries by Arnon, Chiesa, Fenzi and Eylon Yogev (https://eprint.iacr.org/2024/390.pdf) ZK Podcast Episode 321: STIR with Gal Arnon & Giacomo Fenzi (https://zeroknowledge.fm/321-2/) Computationally Sound Proofs by Micali (https://people.csail.mit.edu/silvio/Selected%20Scientific%20Papers/Proof%20Systems/Computationally_Sound_Proofs.pdf) Tight Security Bounds for Micali's SNARGs by Chiesa and Yogev (https://eprint.iacr.org/2021/188.pdf) Interactive Oracle Proofs by Ben-Sasson, Chiesa, and Spooner (https://eprint.iacr.org/2016/116.pdf) Summer School on Probabilistic Proofs: Foundations and Frontiers of Probabilistic Proofs in Zürich, Switzerland (https://www.slmath.org/summer-schools/1037) Proofs, Arguments, and Zero-Knowledge by Thaler (https://people.cs.georgetown.edu/jthaler/ProofsArgsAndZK.pdf) ZK HACK Discord and Justin Thaler Study Club (https://discord.gg/Nw7PKJ7e) Justin Thaler Study Club by ZK HACK on YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLj80z0cJm8QEmZkGgSOLpr_8B08SCWVQ7) Subquadratic SNARGs in the Random Oracle Model by Chiesa and Yogev (https://eprint.iacr.org/2021/281.pdf) ZK Learning Course (https://zk-learning.org/) ZK Hack Montreal has been announced for Aug 9 - 11! Apply to join the hackathon here (https://zk-hack-montreal.devfolio.co/). Episode Sponsors Launching soon, Namada (https://namada.net/) is a proof-of-stake L1 blockchain focused on multichain, asset-agnostic privacy, via a unified shielded set. Namada is natively interoperable with fast-finality chains via IBC, and with Ethereum using a trust-minimized bridge. Follow Namada on Twitter @namada (https://twitter.com/namada) for more information and join the community on Discord (http://discord.gg/namada). Aleo (http://aleo.org/) is a new Layer-1 blockchain that achieves the programmability of Ethereum, the privacy of Zcash, and the scalability of a rollup. As Aleo is gearing up for their mainnet launch in Q1, this is an invitation to be part of a transformational ZK journey. Dive deeper and discover more about Aleo at http://aleo.org/ (http://aleo.org/). If you like what we do: * Find all our links here! @ZeroKnowledge | Linktree (https://linktr.ee/zeroknowledge) * Subscribe to our podcast newsletter (https://zeroknowledge.substack.com) * Follow us on Twitter @zeroknowledgefm (https://twitter.com/zeroknowledgefm) * Join us on Telegram (https://zeroknowledge.fm/telegram) * Catch us on YouTube (www.youtube.com/channel/UCYWsYz5cKw4wZ9Mpe4kuM_g)

In this week's episode, Anna (https://twitter.com/annarrose) and Kobi (https://twitter.com/kobigurk) chat with Gal Arnon (https://galarnon42.github.io/), Ph.D student from the Weizmann Institute of Science (https://weizmann.ac.il/pages/) & Giacomo Fenzi (https://twitter.com/GiacomoFenzi), Ph.D. student in the COMPSEC Lab (https://compsec.epfl.ch/) at EPFL (https://epfl.ch/). Gal and Giacomo are amongst the co-authors of ‘STIR: Reed–Solomon Proximity Testing with Fewer Queries' (https://eprint.iacr.org/2024/390) and in this conversation, they discuss how their research led them to work on these topics and where the thesis for this particular work sparked from. They set the stage by exploring the history of FRI and discussing some hidden nuances in how FRI works. And then they introduce STIR, a system that can be used in place of FRI, which incorporates various optimisations to improve the performance. Here's some additional links for this episode: FRIDA: Data Availability Sampling from FRI by Hall-Andersen, Simkin and Wagner (https://eprint.iacr.org/2024/248.pdf) Lattice-Based Polynomial Commitments: Towards Asymptotic and Concrete Efficiency by Fenzi, Moghaddas and Nguyen (https://eprint.iacr.org/2023/846.pdf) DEEP-FRI: Sampling Outside the Box Improves Soundness by Ben-Sasson, Goldberg, Kopparty and Saraf (https://eprint.iacr.org/2019/336.pdf) Proximity Gaps for Reed–Solomon Codes by Ben-Sasson, Carmon, Ishai, Kopparty and Saraf (https://eprint.iacr.org/2020/654.pdf) IOPs with Inverse Polynomial Soundness Error by Arnon, Chiesa and Yogev (https://eprint.iacr.org/2023/1062.pdf) Episode 293: Exploring Security of ZK Systems with Nethermind's Michał & Albert (https://zeroknowledge.fm/293-2/) Circle STARKs by Haböck, Levit and Papini (https://eprint.iacr.org/2024/278.pdf) Episode 304: Exploring FRI, LogUp and using M31 for STARKs with Ulrich Haböck (https://zeroknowledge.fm/304-2/) FRI-Binius: Improved Polynomial Commitments for Binary Towers (https://www.ulvetanna.io/news/fri-binius) The next ZK Hack IRL is happening May 17-19 in Kraków, apply to join now at zkkrakow.com (https://www.zkkrakow.com/) Aleo (http://aleo.org/) is a new Layer-1 blockchain that achieves the programmability of Ethereum, the privacy of Zcash, and the scalability of a rollup. Dive deeper and discover more about Aleo at http://aleo.org/ (http://aleo.org/) If you like what we do: * Find all our links here! @ZeroKnowledge | Linktree (https://linktr.ee/zeroknowledge) * Subscribe to our podcast newsletter (https://zeroknowledge.substack.com) * Follow us on Twitter @zeroknowledgefm (https://twitter.com/zeroknowledgefm) * Join us on Telegram (https://zeroknowledge.fm/telegram) * Catch us on YouTube (https://zeroknowledge.fm/)

Nick Galton-Fenzi advises breweries and distilleries in Western Australia, of varying sizes and with different offerings. In total, there are over 100 active breweries in his region and he is a vibrant part of this scene. The capital Perth is one of the most isolated places in the world, with plenty of sea and desert around it. That's why the beers there are unique and are made with local ingredients, especially barley and wheat. Nick takes us into this exciting world in the podcast and tells us about his unique story as a brewer in many countries around the globe.

“And so you really are able to experience and meet the world from a very small and beautiful place, which makes you really aware of what's around you. Its a very cosmopolitan place in the countryside next to a tiny town.” We're in great company with Angelica Fenzi, the 4th generation of the Fenzi family to play her part in savoring, refining and celebrating the history of Fattoria San Donato, a small medieval village, working farm, winery and agriturismo immersed in the rolling hills of the Tuscan countryside.  Fattoria San Donato and the Fenzi family will always hold a special place in my heart and memory as it was here that Nick Beyer got down on one knee and asked me to marry him, set to the scene of the sun setting over the vineyards, as we nestled into a private picnic paired with the most perfect wine.  As we celebrate the 1 year anniversary of our engagement, it brings me the greatest, most sincere pleasure to share this story of the place and the people that inspired Stay In Good Company.  Top Takeaways [2:25] From a cherished childhood growing up on her family's agriturismo, Angelica moved to London to study anthropology and then Milan to study food and wine, before returning home with that education and appreciation for the terroir and architecture at Fattoria San Donato's doorstep.  [8:10] Its a whole family affair to keep the fattoria fully functioning with Angelica overseeing the marketing, weddings and events, her sister Fiamma taking care of the animals, and her sister Benedetta learning her way around the vineyard and winery.  [10:15] What Angelica's parents have taught her about kindness, generosity, and passion for food and wine.  [11:50] How San Donato came to be, dating back to when it was a hilltop medieval village first documented in 971 AD, to when the Fenzi family purchased the property in 1932, slowly turning it into the farm, winery and agriturismo it is today. [19:00] Expect to experience all of your senses when you arrive at San Donato - the warmth of the sun, the smell of rosemary, the view of beautiful green hills, the taste of a crisp glass of Vernaccia, and the sound of laughter coming from the courtyard.  [22:40] There's so much of Tuscany to explore without having to leave San Donato - from cooking classes to truffle hunting, a dip in the pool to yoga and meditation with horses, you'll learn the techniques, the history and the intention behind these cultural experiences. [26:45] Since the beginning, the Fenzi family has realized they too are guests passing through this place and thus their respect for nature allows the grapes to speak for themselves and be a reflection of the terroir. [42:00] What Angelica and her sisters aspire to do in being the next generation to steward San Donato, from showcasing more art, collaborating with local craftspeople, and continuing to celebrate the Tuscan gastronomy.  Notable Mentions ASD Piuma Sacra (Sacred Feather) Things to do about San Gimignano Gelateria Dondoli  Galleria Continua Vernaccia Wine Experience  Osteria del Carcere  Ristorante Perucà Santo Spirito Square for aperitivo in Florence Volterra where Twilight was filmed Small towns of Monteriggioni & Abbadia a Isola Visit For Yourself Fattoria San Donato Website  @fattoriasandonatobio Stay In Good Company Website

Breeding, Training and Socializing Decisions for High Drive Dogs https://www.fenzidogsportsacademy.com/ (Denise Fenzi )and host Laura Reeves take a deep dive into the breeding, training and socializing decisions we make with high drive dogs. Are we removing “hard” dogs from our gene pool in favor of “twitchy,” flashy high arousal dogs? “So, drive always requires arousal,” Fenzi noted. “Arousal does not require drive. That is a good base. I like to recognize that and to recognize that arousal can hinder the dog's ability to see the world clearly, so your socialization goes to hell, as the dog is so busy moving, they're not actually taking it in. “Then, when they're three, they take it in and that's a problem. 'Cause for the first time they just saw a garbage can on wheels. It's been there the whole time, they just never slowed down enough to see it. In training, we actually perpetuate that. What we do with these high arousal dogs is we work them. We get the toys and play, we focus on really early and they go for it, because they're high arousal dogs, they need something to attach it to and so we actually undermine our socialization.” This in-depth, experience-based discussion between industry leaders asks important questions and offers insight for breeders who want to learn more about breeding high drive dogs in any performance venue. Laura Reeves: “I think it's so important, when we talk about these things from the perspective of purebred dogs and doing events and doing sports and doing show, if that's part of our consideration, all of those things it all is breed specific.” Denise Fenzi: Absolutely Laura Reeves: Starting at that instinct piece that you were talking about, the instinct has to be there and then you layer on all the rest of it. Denise Fenzi: Yes. And then you've got your focus and all kinds of other things that are going to come into play. Even the definition. How do you define drive? My definition is “stays in the game under adversity.” So, it doesn't matter what your game is and it doesn't matter what the adversity is. It could be weather, could be bad training. There are dogs who are out there in crappy weather, under crappy training and I mean I don't know how they do it, but they figure out what the trainer wants and they just flat on go forward. To me that's drive … with a good dose of hardness Defining and understanding drive, considering the inheritance patterns of drive and arousal, addressing anxiety as a corollary, Denise and Laura dig in to the hard topics, the difficult conversations and the implications of our breeding decisions. Listen to part one https://puredogtalk.com/podcast/507-denise-fenzi-on-drive-vs-arousal/ (here). Support this podcast

In this first episode of Fenzi Food for Thought, I'm sharing with you  a popular instagram live I did on the topic of movement vs. stillness and why this matters for training the individual dog in front of you.

Denise Fenzi on "Drive" vs "Arousal" in Dogs https://www.fenzidogsportsacademy.com/ (Denise Fenzi), Founder of the famous Fenzi Dog Sport Academy, joins host Laura Reeves for Part 1 of this powerful and thoughtful conversation about what drives our dogs to the behaviors we see. Denise and Laura discuss the difference between drive and arousal, and how that impacts on our dogs, particularly performance dogs, and some of the things that we as breeders need to consider when making breeding decisions. “In the make-up of the dog, you've got the very bottom level,” Fenzi said. “Let's call that instinct. Those are things that the dog does to stay alive. If you have a highly predatory dog and a rabbit goes by, the dog doesn't think about what it's going to do it goes. That's the very bottom basic level. I will tell you that, in my opinion, this is where drives are rooted. So, the very bottom level is instinct in my opinion it is the hardest to change. "Instinctually driven behaviors are very resistant to change. This is both good and bad because this is why your hunting dog goes out for an hour and does the thing. It's painful, it's hot, it's tired, it's cranky and it just keeps doing it and maybe it doesn't even know why it keeps doing it, it just does the thing. “One level up is the emotional level. That is where you have fear. Anxiety is linked to fear, it's irrational fear, like you don't even know why you're afraid you're just feeling anxious. You have happiness, you have anger, you have joy, you have caretaking for your young. So let's call that the emotional level. Arousal can come from either one of those places… the bottom level the predatory drive instinctual base level, or it can come from the emotional level. “Drive has a focus. Arousal is scattered movement. Focus sort of ties it altogether. If you have drive for a thing then you have to have focus or you just went out of drive. Now you're looking at something else. Arousal gets complicated, because arousal can look like drive. (But) a dog can be in arousal and have no drive whatsoever.” Listen to the whole show above to hear more. Fenzi has titled dogs in obedience (AKC and UKC), tracking (AKC and schutzhund), schutzhund (USA), mondioring (MRSA), herding (AKC), conformation (AKC), and agility (AKC). She has two AKC obedience champions, perfect scores in both schutzhund and Mondio ringsport obedience, and is well known for her flashy and precise obedience work. While a successful competitor, Fenzi's real passion lies in training dogs and solving the problems that her own dogs and her students' dogs present. She is a recognized expert in developing drive, motivation, and focus in competition dogs, and is known internationally as an engaging speaker and an expert in no-force training for sport dogs. She has consistently demonstrated the ability to train and compete with dogs using motivational methods in sports where compulsion is the norm. Support this podcast

Taking his practice to the most vulnerable populations of the community, Dr. Fenzi recalls personal stories of medical triumphs small and large - from the uplifting daily smiles of staff to helping during the COVID pandemic. --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/goodlifeconversations/support

Denise Fenzi is a very well known and accomplished trainer in the canine world. She is an accomplished author, blogger and influencer through her business, Fenzi dog sports academy. She was kind enough to join us on the show to talk about what matters to her. Also Denise discusses how life with dogs has given her so much and the many things she's learned and still learning. One of the many talking points we enjoyed with Denise was sharing mistakes in training videos. We believe that many new trainers learn from seeing what happens when mistakes occurs and what the pros do to fix them. In any event, it was a delightful conversation spanning many years of experiences. We hope to have Denis back on the show soon to have another round of training conversation. Further details If your looking for contact details, great trainers and supporters of The Canine Paradigm, look no further. Below is a vast array of people and business's who stand by us and donate to our running costs. Glenn runs and has almost everything canine related at, Canine Evolution or Pet Resorts Australia Pat has a full range of coaching and training services at Operant Canine If you wish to learn a little more about us, go here You can support our show and get extra content right here on our Patreon page. Everything goes into keeping the show running and we love all the wonderful people who are part of that community. If you're not sure how, just ask us. You can get our full range of Merch at our Teespring store here You can also help us by spreading the word amongst the community or even suggesting a special guest to interview. If you need to find out how to listen to our show, go here We have a YOUTUBE channel that you can subscribe to now If you enjoyed the podcast, please review us on Itunes Details on joining the IACP can be found here. If you're not in it you should be! For more details on how to help our friends at Peggy's Promise, you can find all the details on how to do that on their website. They are our rescue charity of choice. Support our supporters Narelle Cooke's raw feeding guide for pets here Birdy O'Sheedy can be found at Pause in life and at Paws in life Jason Firmin Einzweck Dog quip SHOW SPONSOR K9 Dynamics online store for all our listeners in USA and Canada SHOW SPONSOR Melanie Benware at Kindred K9 Solutions SHOW SPONSOR Kathy Santo at Kathy Santo Dog Training SHOW SPONSOR Jasmine Whiting is at Prime Canine Alex Edwards Refine your CanineEmma Murdoch Walk with me Ottawa Find out more about GRC dog sports here https://thecanineparadigm.com/2020/09/05/episode-143-kathy-santo/

The opioid epidemic has impacted communities in every corner of the country, posing new challenges for healthcare providers. As opioid-induced overdoses continue to soar, doctors have had to adapt to the changing needs of their patients. In Santa Barbara County, the Neighborhood Clinics have adopted a multi-tiered approach to battle addiction and promote recovery. The harm reduction program integrates behavioral health therapy with medically assisted treatment. In order to prevent potential opioid-related injuries, the clinics provide every patient in their program with a supply of Naloxone— a drug that reverses opioid overdoses. On this episode of our podcast, we follow Dr. Fenzi as he gives us a first-hand look at what the Neighborhood Clinics are doing to tackle opioid addiction in their community.

World-renowned professional trainer Denise Fenzi of Fenzi Dog Sports Academy shares her wisdom about dog sports. That Expert Show host Anna Canzano asks Fenzi viewer questions about positive reinforcement training, techniques to motivate dogs, which dog sports is right for you and your dog, loose leash walking, nose work, agility, water rescue, and dog anxiety. That Expert Show (watch all episodes) Fenzi Dog Sports Academy

If you want to know how Global Warming works, ask a Glaciologist. Dr Karl talks with  Dr Ben Galton-Fenzi about his measurements on the Totten Glacier - one of the fastest flowing in Antarctica. His measurements, models and predictions are rewriting the timetable for ocean level rises. Dr Karl traveled south to Casey research station as part of the Australian Antarctic Program. @AusAntarctic

Summary: In 2004 Barbara Currier and her husband Michael were relocated to Richmond, VA, where she began teaching agility at All Dog Adventures. It was there that Barbara was introduced to Susan Garrett and her foundation-based training, centered around impulse control and relationship building with your dog.   She continues to train with some of the best handlers in the world and has implemented what she has learned from each of them into her training program. She became heavily involved in the OneMind Dogs handling method in 2014. She has successfully competed in agility with over 10 different breeds of dogs. Along the way, she started her own in home training and behavioral rehabilitation business. She was the trainer for Richmond Boxer Rescue and also assisted Southeastern Virginia Golden Retriever Rescue in assessing some of their dogs. Over the years, Barbara has worked extensively with many rescue organizations in numerous states. Barbara has also worked as an animal wrangler for Marvel’s Ant-Man, 90 Minutes in Heaven, the TV series Satisfaction and various commercials. She is also the head dog trainer for the F.I.D.O Program run at Georgia Tech which creates wearable computing for military, SAR and service dogs. Links: Leave FDSA A Voicemail! Next Episode: To be released 11/23/2018, we'll be talking to Amy Cook about overcoming sound sensitivity. TRANSCRIPTION: Melissa Breau: This is Melissa Breau and you're listening to the Fenzi Dog Sports Podcast brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy, an online school dedicated to providing high-quality instruction for competitive dog sports using only the most current and progressive training methods. Today we’ll be talking to Barbara Currier. In 2004, Barbara and her husband Michael were relocated to Richmond, Va., where she began teaching agility at All Dog Adventures. It was there that Barbara was introduced to Susan Garrett and her foundation-based training, centered around impulse control and relationship-building with your dog.   She continues to train with some of the best handlers in the world and has implemented what she has learned from each of them into her training program. She became heavily involved in the OneMind Dogs handling method in 2014. She has successfully competed in agility with over ten different breeds of dogs. Along the way, she started her own in-home training and behavioral rehabilitation business. She was the trainer for the Richmond Boxer Rescue and also assisted Southeastern Virginia Golden Retriever Rescue in assessing some of their dogs. Over the years, Barbara has worked extensively with many different rescue organizations in numerous states. She also worked as an animal wrangler for Marvel’s Ant-Man, 90 Minutes in Heaven, the TV series Satisfaction, and various commercials. She is the head dog trainer for the F.I.D.O Program run at Georgia Tech, which creates wearable computing for military, search-and-rescue (SAR), and service dogs. Hi Barbara, welcome back to the podcast! Barbara Currier: Hi, thanks for having me. Melissa Breau: Absolutely! Excited to chat again. To start us out, can you remind listeners who your dogs are and what you’re working on with them? Barbara Currier: Sure. My oldest is Piper. She’s a 10-year-old Parson Russell Terrier, and she pretty much just does dock diving. She loves that. She’s not happy that the season has ended now, so she’s in her winter rest, which doesn’t make her real happy, but she loves her dock diving. And then I have Blitz, who is my 9-year-old Border Collie. He is retired from agility. He also does dock diving now, and he is also my medical alert service dog. And then I have Miso. She is my 4-year-old Miniature Poodle. She is my main agility dog right now. She is also a medical alert service dog. And my newest is Eggo. He will turn a year tomorrow. He is my English Cocker that I imported from Europe. He is doing agility. He’s not competing yet, he’s still very young, he’s only going to be a year. But he is hopefully going to have a promising career in agility, and he’s also doing dock diving, which he already is obsessed with. Melissa Breau: That’s fun. The waffle, right? Barbara Currier: Yes, that’s the waffle. Melissa Breau: So I wanted to focus on weave poles today, since I know you have a class on that coming up, but as a non-agility person I’m going to totally admit that some of my questions are a little on the basic side. First off — wow. Without knowing how to train them, if you look at weave poles in general, it seems like such a complex behavior. Can you break it down for us a little bit? What pieces or skills have to come together to have really well-trained weave poles? Barbara Currier: Weaves are actually my most favorite piece of equipment to teach out of all the agility equipment. It’s the hardest behavior for the dogs to learn because it’s the most unnatural. But if you look at agility as a whole, it’s pretty much all natural behaviors for the dogs, things that you would see them doing if they were out running in the woods, except you don’t normally see them weaving through trees. So weave poles is very unnatural, and so it can be quite difficult to teach them that. I find it such a fun puzzle to teach it, and I love to make it a game for them so that they find it as much fun as I do. The downside on weaves is it can be hard on their bodies, so you just want to make sure that they’re physically ready to ask what we want them to do. You want to make sure that they’re old enough and that they’re strong enough, because it can be quite taxing on them. One of the parts of weave poles is the dog must learn to always enter with the first pole at their left shoulder and then continue the rhythm through all twelve poles. It’s a very specific behavior, and it can be difficult for the dogs to do this at extreme speeds and still maintain all twelve poles. So they have to learn how to use their bodies so that they’re at full speed and they can hit all twelve poles. Oftentimes the dogs will pop out if they haven’t been taught properly how to do that, or they’ll get their entry and not be able to hold on to the poles, because there’s a lot of things that come together with weave poles. There’s a lot of body awareness, there’s a lot of them knowing how to rock their weight back on their haunches to collect to get into the poles, there’s footwork involved. There’s two different styles of footwork in poles. There’s the swimming or the single-stepping and then there is the bounce stride. Most big dogs single step and most little dogs bounce stride, which looks like a rabbit hopping in between. I say “most” because I do know quite a few big dogs that bounce stride and they do just fine, their weaves are just as fast, it’s not a problem. But people sometimes get a little too hung up on the footwork. If they have a big dog and they see their big dog is bounce striding, they don’t like that, they want to make them single-stride. But I think it’s important to let the dog choose what is most comfortable for their body type and for the way they move, as long as they’re not doing a combination of both. That tends to have problems. But you really want it to become muscle memory for the dog, so that when they’re doing the behavior, they’re not thinking about it, they’re just doing it. That’s where the speed comes from. The more that they think about it, the slower it is, the more methodical it is, so we want it to become muscle memory so that they’re just going through the motions. Melissa Breau: Just to make sure everybody’s on the same page, single step you’re talking about when they go into the weaves and it’s, “OK, I’m on my left foot on the left side and my right front foot on the right side,” and bounce is when they have both feet on the ground on each side, right? Barbara Currier: Yes, yes.   Melissa Breau: Awesome. I wanted to make sure because, you know, terminology and stuff. Even not knowing much about the topic, I’ve heard of things like 2X2 training, I’ve seen trainers use guide wires, moving poles and gradually bringing them closer together, and things like that. Can you briefly explain what some of the different methods ARE that are out there, what those things are, what people are talking about? Barbara Currier: There’s basically three different methods to training weave poles. There’s the 2X2 method, where you teach them — much like it says in the name — you teach them two poles at a time. The channel method, where it basically looks like a chute of weave poles and you slowly can close the chute — it’s the way the base is made so that it slowly comes together — so the dog starts with running down the middle of the poles in a straight line, and then as the poles start to come closer and closer together, the dog has to start weaving to do it. The third one is the guide wires, where it’s guide wires that are put on the poles, so it looks like a maze that the dog walks through and they can learn that way. Melissa Breau: That’s interesting. Which approach do you usually use for your dogs and what are you using in the class? Barbara Currier: My preference is the 2X2 method. The base of my preference is from the method that I learned from Susan Garrett with her 2X2’s, and then I have, over the years, adapted for some things with my own dogs and some holes that I was constantly seeing with dogs that were coming to me. I’m kind of known as the weave guru in my parts, and so whenever people start having weave problems, they come to me. I kept seeing a lot of the same issues, and even with people that had taught their dogs with 2X2’s. But what was interesting was I didn’t see the issues with my dogs, and I wasn’t sure quite at first what I was doing differently than what everybody else was doing, where my dogs weren’t having this issue but other people’s were. I took a young dog that I was just training, and I basically documented every single thing I did to try to find what I was doing differently than what everybody else was doing, and found that it was a lot in my beginning stages of my approaches that would prevent these holes from happening that I was seeing in other people’s dogs. And so I have modified it to adding more of that stuff in, and a little bit of other things that I have found here and there that have helped with it, I think. Melissa Breau: When you say approaches, you mean the dogs approaching the poles, or are you talking about something else? Barbara Currier: Yes, when the dog approaches the poles. In the class, we do what’s called “entries” on an around-the-clock game, so you have your poles in the middle, and you pretend you’re standing on a clock and you work through your different entries. But what I was finding with a lot of people is a lot of people stayed at the straight-on approaches or the more straightforward easy approaches, and I wasn’t being methodical about this, I just didn’t do it. I did not stay at those approaches much. I stayed at the harder approaches. And so right from the beginning the dogs would learn to bend and hit those weave entries from a more difficult angle and would speed right from the beginning. On two poles, it’s easy. The reward comes fast and it’s easy to find, and so I was finding that with my dogs I was building up the muscling along their spine right from the beginning and was building up that drive to find the pole, really dig in, and grab that entry. So I do very few easy entries right off from the beginning, and I don’t really concern myself with those entries until I start adding in the full six and the full twelve, because I consider those entries easy. Where those entries become difficult is when the dogs are at full speed and they have to learn how to power down to get into their poles. So I worry about that once I start adding in sequencing and that type of thing, but from the beginning I work those hard entrances right at the first two poles, and it seems to help with some of the fallout that happens down the road, like getting the entry and not being able to hang on to the poles, or missing the entry and going into the second pole, and those types of things. Melissa Breau: That’s really interesting. I was actually going to ask you, this feeds well into what my next question was, which I think our listeners, in particular, are probably pretty familiar with the idea of building up skills gradually, but it seems like there are so many pieces to the weave poles. There are so many different axes that you have to gradually make more difficult. You’ve got your speed, you’re got the number of poles, you’ve got the entries, you’ve got the sequencing, your more advanced handling … so can you talk a little more about how you juggle all those different pieces? Is there an order that makes sense for people as they try and put the things together? Do you work on them in different training sessions? How does that work? How do you approach it? Barbara Currier: I start with two poles and teach the dog to find the entry from all the different angles, and with speed and enthusiasm right from the start. And then, again, like I mentioned before, the reward comes fast when you’re only using two poles, so it’s the perfect time to get the dog to think that the game is really, really fun. I also keep my sessions incredibly short, like, three correct entries on each side and then done. So my dogs are looking at me like, “Seriously, that’s it? That’s all we get?” And I’m like, “Yes, that’s it, we’re done. That was the session.” And so the more we play this game, and it’s super-fast and it’s super-fun and it all happens really fast, the more they’re like, “Oh my god, this is the most fun game ever.” All my dogs love weave poles so much because I keep everything so fast and exciting, and when they’re like, “This is the most fun on Earth,” I’m like, “Yeah, I know, and we’re done now.” And they’re thinking, “What, what? No, I was just getting into it.” And I’m like, “We’ve got to wait until the next session.” So I really want them to love, love the game. The other thing that’s important is that I don’t worry about if they’re wrong. I want them to make mistakes. If they’re not making mistakes, it’s too easy. But I also want them to understand that making a mistake is not a big deal. I want them to learn how to fail and just keep trying with the same amount of enthusiasm. Often, dogs, when they make a mistake, they’re like, “Oh, I can’t do it anymore. It’s so hard. That reward didn’t come, I can’t do it, I can’t do it,” and then the owner gets stressed and then the dog gets stressed, and suddenly it’s a meltdown for everyone. When my dogs make a mistake, it’s just, “Oh my god, we’re going to try that again!” and they just don’t get the reward and they’re like, “OK, OK, I’ll be better this time. I’ll get it, I’ll get it.” To them, it’s just like a mystery they’re trying to solve, or a puzzle they’re trying to figure out, and so they’re super-happy to try again for me and it’s not a big deal. There’s never any shutdown and “Oh, this is too hard, this is too hard.” Now, if they fail twice in a row, I will take a step back and I might back-train, like, “This maybe standing here at 3 o’clock is a little too hard for you, but what if I stand at 2:30? Can you do it at 2:30?” And we’ll go from there. If they’re correct a couple of times at 2:30, then I’ll go to 2:45 and “How is this? Can we do this now?” And so on and so on. From there we move to four poles and follow the same thing as above, and then we move on to six poles. Of course we angle them a certain way, and then we gradually make them straighter and straighter. I stay at six poles until I’m in love with the dog’s footwork, speed, and understanding of their job. Oftentimes a lot of people will get to six and then they’re like, “Now it’s twelve.” But the dog doesn’t fully understand their job yet, and all we’ve done by adding in six more is we’ve just made it harder, we’ve made the reward farther away, and the dogs really start to slow down. So I’m in no rush to leave six until I’m in love with the behavior the dog is showing me. I really want them to be confident in their footwork. I really want to see what we talked about earlier, the muscle memory, and not so much the hard thinking about the job. I want all that to come out now, so that when we move on to twelve, then it’s just getting the stamina of doing this behavior longer for twelve poles and just getting the speed going for that long of a distance. Once I have the footwork and the speed that I really like at the twelve, then I’ll start working in distractions like, Can you do your weave poles when there’s a dog playing tug next to them? Can you do your weave poles if I’m throwing a Frisbee? Can you do your weave poles if I have a plate of chicken next to you? All these things so that when they get into working in a trial environment, the stuff that I like to call my “torture,” which my dogs love because it’s like a super game to them, that they’re like, “Oh yeah, trial distractions. This stuff is easy compared to what Mom does to us at home.” Because they get these huge, massive jackpots when they can go through the weave poles when I’m throwing a Frisbee. I’ve had a few dogs over the years that were food-driven dogs only, and of course we worked up to this, but one of the things I do with my food-driven dogs for a distraction is I will line the base of the weave poles with steak, and they have to weave over the top of the steak and not touch it. And then, at the end, if they’re successful, they can come back and eat all the steak. It’s so much fun. Recently, I have a young group of dogs in a class that just started trialing, and they had been with me since they were 8-week-old puppies. Now they’re all trialing and it’s been really cool to see. When they were all learning their weave poles, I had a little Sheltie that was very food-driven, not toy-driven, and we did that and she’s like, “Oh, she’s never going to do it,” and she did it like a rockstar. She was like, “Steak on the weave poles, we’ve got this. I know my job.” So it’s really, really fun. Once I work through distraction stuff, then I start handling moves. Can you stay in your poles when I’m front crossing before and after the poles? Can you stay in your poles when I’m rear crossing, when I’m blind crossing? And then I add a jump, and now, Can you do your poles when another piece of equipment’s been added to it? Can you do your poles when a jump is after the weave poles, when you see something else coming? Can you do your weave poles when there’s a tunnel nearby, when we’re going to go to a tunnel? Then, once I’m loving all that stuff, then I add the next six and we do the distractions again, and then we start adding in more difficult sequencing. Melissa Breau: You’ve definitely got it down like a method, an approach, and all the pieces are there. I think that’s important for people to recognize that you do have to work through all those things systematically. Barbara Currier: Yeah, for sure. Melissa Breau: Both in the course description and just now, you mention the idea of having your dog LOVE the weave poles. Forgive me if I’m wrong, but it sounds like a big piece of that is about confidence, making sure that they know how to do the behavior correctly. Can you talk a little bit about that? How does loving the weaves and confidence, how do those things go hand-in-hand when it comes to getting good performance on course? Barbara Currier: Like I talked about before, it’s all about teaching the dogs that the game is awesome. That means keeping the sessions super-short, making them always want more, making them understand that mistakes are fine, mistakes are not a big deal, and that it’s just a puzzle, this didn’t work, good try, let’s try something else. And the more value that they have in knowing exactly what their job is, the better the performance is going to be and the drive into the weave. So I do little … I call them mini-weave drills, which I go over in the class too, that I do with my dogs a couple of times a week. I go outside with one stick of cheese, and when that stick of cheese is gone, game over. I take off really big bites, huge hunks, probably an inch piece of cheese, so super-easy to see, not crumbly, and I get maybe four to six pieces of cheese out of one stick. I go out, and whatever course I have set up in my field, and I take all the jumps and I just put the bars in the ground, because for me, when I’m working my mini-weave drills, it’s not necessarily about the jumping. It’s about the love for the weave. So I put all the bars in the ground, and then I just randomly walk around the field, and from different approaches of jumps without having bars, I send my dogs to the weaves, sometimes with motion, sometimes with no motion, and I will sometimes do very weird handling moves, things that you would never see in a course. I will send them to the weirdest types of entries. Sometimes my husband will come out with me, and he doesn’t really know agility very well, so I’ll say, “Tell me how to get some of these weaves, tell me something.” He’ll be like, “All right. Go from that jump to the weave.” And it’s completely random, she has to skip, like, four jumps, or do this massive, crazy entry, and we do it and it’s fun and she thinks it’s the most amazing game. I do that a couple of times a week and it’s super-easy, it’s quick, she gets these big hunks of cheese, which are like a meal for her, and so she thinks that weave poles are the most fun thing in the world to do. In fact, my agility field is fenced off from the rest of my property, so when the dogs are outside, they can’t get into the agility field. They all run to the field gate all the time, and if I let them in, the first thing they do is run over to the weave poles because they’re like, “Oh, are we doing those drills? Because those are super-fun.” That’s what you want to get from your dogs, and that’s going to get that performance. When I’m at trials and I say to my dogs, “Go weave,” they hit those weaves with such intensity and such stride, and they dig in so hard to get those entries and keep those poles, and they work so hard because I created so much value for the poles. Melissa Breau: To take a little bit of a step back, I guess, when people are working on things, what are some of the common training mistakes people make as they’re trying to teach weaves? What problems do they cause? If you’re looking at a little bit of problem-solving there, what do you see people doing that maybe isn’t optimal? Barbara Currier: The biggest one is moving too fast. Moving to twelve poles before the dog is solid at six. I tell my students there’s no trophy or title for the person who can train their weaves the fastest. When people get six, they’re like, “I’m just going to add on the next six and it’s going to be great,” because we all want to say, “My dog has twelve poles,” but all you’re doing by moving too fast is that the dog is not clear on what their job is, you’re getting slow, inconsistent weaves that have to be managed or babysat because the dog doesn’t really understand. So they’re just going to get slower and slower, and they’re going to get frustrated because they’re going to be confused, and then you’re going to get frustrated, and it becomes this vicious cycle. That’s usually when people start coming to me and “My dog can get the entries, but they can’t hold on,” that type of thing. So then they come to me, and I often find that they moved to twelve poles before the dogs really understood six, and my advice is always, “Let’s go back to the beginning. We need to redo this.” Melissa Breau: My next question is, how do you problem-solve some of those issues? Do you basically just do that, take a step back, go back to six poles and retrain all those different aspects before you go back to twelve, or is there more to it? Barbara Currier: It depends exactly what the issue is. The most common problems are missing entries at speed. If it’s a missing entry problem, I usually recommend that we go back to two poles, so that we can start with, Can you find your entry from all different areas without having to have the dog wait for the reward to get through all six poles, if that makes sense. Because, again, the reward comes quicker on two poles than it does on six poles, so it’s easier gratification for the dog. So I like to, for missed entries, start back at two poles, and then I work up to the four, up to the six. Now, with a dog that already understands the concept of poles, it goes really fast. It doesn’t take long at all to revisit these things and get the dog to understand. If the dog is having problems with they get their entry, but then they can’t hold on to the poles because they’re going at speed, then I will start them back at four poles or six poles, but add in sequencing, so coming off of a tunnel so we’ve got some speed, and teaching them how to grab that entry and hold on to the poles. With that, they also need to be building up some muscling for it. And so a lot of it, I think, with those dogs comes from doing more straight-on approaches and not enough of the angle approaches from the very beginning, where they can build up that strength along their spine. One of the other ones is the popping out at ten poles, which a lot of dogs do. Oftentimes I find those are from the handlers that try to lead the dogs, whether they’re going lateral, or they’re trying to get a little bit ahead, and they never taught the independent poles from the beginning. They really babysat the poles because they wanted the dog to be right so badly, so they stayed back and they matched the dog’s speed and they were right there, but once they wanted to put them into sequencing, they wanted to leave, but we didn’t actually teach the dog that, and so now the dogs are like, “Well, you’re leaving, so I’m leaving too.” So when I teach this from the very beginning, it is completely independent from the handler. We are quite far away from the beginning. We have nothing to do with it, we don’t help them, we don’t lure them through the entry, we don’t do any of that. It’s all on them. So it’s quite easy the way I teach it from the beginning to have that lateral independence, because we teach it to them from the very beginning, as long as you continue with it. Because oftentimes what I’ll see is the dogs have these amazing independence when we get through the end of the training, but then the owners go right back to babysitting and then the dogs will lose it. So I have to constantly remind my students, “Your dog has the skill. Trust them. Let them show you they can do it, and leave them.” Melissa Breau: This is a question I don’t usually ask here on the podcast, but I used to love, back when I was a journalist asking this question, because it seems to always get unexpected nuggets of interesting information, and since I have never trained a dog to weave and don’t know a ton about the topic, obviously you’re the expert — is there anything important that I didn’t think to ask or that you’d want people to think about as they’re working on weave poles with their dog? Barbara Currier: Probably the most important thing about weave poles that I think sometimes gets overlooked, forgotten, or people don’t think it’s as important as it should be is: your dog must be done with growing before you teach weave poles. Like I said in the beginning, it’s one of the hardest obstacles on their body, and I always make sure, when I have young dogs, that I take them and have them x-rayed to be positive that their growth plates have closed before I start training weave poles. You can do a lot of damage to them. It’s very hard on their shoulders, it’s very hard on their spine, it can be hard on their neck, and it’s not something you want to do until you’re a hundred percent sure that they are done growing. The other great thing about doing the x-rays is that usually, around 14 months, I always have full x-rays done of shoulders, elbows, hips, and knees, and so, one, I can tell if the growth plates are closed or not closed, and depending on your breed … I have a student that has a borzoi, and she x-rayed her at 14 months and her growth plates were nowhere near done being closed. But she’s a Borzoi, but it was good information to have, because we certainly, especially with a breed that large, don’t want to be doing even contacts, if their growth plates aren’t closed, and hers didn’t close for quite a while after that, so that’s really important information to have. It also gives you a picture of what your dog’s body looks like before you do the sport with them, whether you’ve got any elbow dysplasia or hip dysplasia. Without getting a picture, some dogs don’t even show these things, and to me, I just think it’s super-important to know what you’re starting off with. Melissa Breau: Right, right, and I would imagine it’s good to have those, heaven forbid they do get injured at some point later on, you have a baseline, a picture to refer to. Barbara Currier: Yes. For sure. The other thing that I always … and I bring this up in the class, too, is if I have somebody come up to me and they say, “My dog has always weaved really well, and they’re now popping out at pole ten,” or “They can’t hit their entry, but they never had a problem with it before,” my first thought is, Your dog probably has an injury, and that needs to be addressed first. As all the Fenzi instructors try to teach, dogs are not out to try to make us mad and push our buttons. That’s not the way dogs work. So if your dog is all of a sudden exhibiting something that is unusual for them, the first thing I check is injuries. My poodle, who loves her weave poles, a tell for me that she has a rib out is if she misses her weave entry, because she never misses weave entries. So if she can’t hold on, I immediately leave the ring and will bring her to a chiropractor, and sure enough, she’ll have a rib out. I certainly don’t want her running with a rib out. I don’t know if you’ve ever had a rib out before, but it is incredibly painful, and I don’t want her running like that. And so I let my dogs tell me. I don’t just assume, “Oh, she’s being bad,” or “She’s being lazy.” I assume, “Oh, you’re really trying to tell me something, and what you’re telling me is, ‘That really hurts, I need some help here.’” Once we get everything back, she’s totally fine, but I certainly wouldn’t want to be annoyed at her and expect her to run all weekend like that. So that’s something that I try to instill in my students is make sure that we’re thinking about that, first and foremost. Sometimes there is … something’s happened. Sometimes what can happen is if they get an injury, the injury is then fixed, but they now associate poles with pain. And so sometimes we have to go back and desensitize them to that and say, “Look, see, it doesn’t hurt anymore, so we can do these again.” Or something has happened and our training has whittled away and we need to go back and take a look at that. But I always try to stress that people make sure that somebody checks them first that it’s not an injury or something going on that way that’s affecting their weave poles. Melissa Breau: Let’s chat about the course for a minute. It’s called “Love ’em and Weave ’em,” and it’s on the calendar for December, which this is coming out on, I believe, the 16th of November, so registration will be opening the week after this comes out. What level of training should dogs and handlers have, if they’re interested in the class? Can you talk a little bit about that, and what you’ll cover, who it’s designed for, that kind of stuff? Barbara Currier: For this class, the dogs should already know weave poles. It moves a little too fast for a dog that doesn’t know weave poles. I think later on in the year Julie Daniels has a foundation weave class coming up, and that would be the class for the dogs that don’t know weave poles at all yet. But this one is for dogs that know weaves, but the handlers aren’t in love with the performance. It will address all the common problems: the going too slow, the inconsistent footwork, the getting the entry but not being able to hang on, missing the entry, popping out pole ten, it will address all of those things. It will also give you the independence so that you can put them in the weaves and leave them and get to where you need to go next. The way I think about my weave poles is, when I send my dog through a tunnel, I want to just be able to say “tunnel,” and know that they’re going to come out the other end. I’m not expecting that they’re going try to dig out the middle of the tunnel. So I want my weave poles to be the same way. When I send you in Pole 1, I expect to see you exit at Pole 12, and I’m going to go do what I need to do. That’s your job, I’ve got my job, we’ll meet at the end, is my theory. So that’s what this course will teach. Melissa Breau: One last question – it’s the question I’ve been asking everybody when they come back on. What’s a lesson you’ve learned or been reminded of recently when it comes to dog training? Barbara Currier: Probably to train the dog that’s in front of you. Often we go out expecting to train one thing, and the dog’s telling us that they need to work on something completely different. And we really have to listen to them and be flexible in what they need, because if you think about it, they’re the ones doing the hard work. They’re the ones running and jumping and doing all of this crazy stuff. Oftentimes I go out with my plan of, “Today we’re going to go out and work on threadles,” and my dog says, “No, today I’m struggling with my start line stay, and so that’s what we’re going to end up working on.” So you have to be willing to abort mission and listen to what the dog is telling you. Sometimes my dog says, “You know what, I’m not feeling it today,” and I say, “All right, let’s go play a game instead,” or “Let’s go for a hike,” because I wake up some mornings and don’t want to work, and my dogs are no different. So you really need to listen to your dogs and hear what they’re trying to tell us. And also to embrace and love the dog that you have and stop mourning the dog that they’re not. Melissa Breau: Thank you so much for coming back on the podcast Barbara! I love that. Barbara Currier: Thanks for having me. It’s so much fun! Melissa Breau: It is! And thank you to all of our listeners for tuning in! We’ll be back next week, this time with Amy Cook to talk about noise sensitivity in dogs and what you can do about it. If you haven’t already, subscribe to our podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. CREDITS: Today’s show is brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzi for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty-free by BenSound.com; the track featured here is called “Buddy.” Audio editing provided by Chris Lang. Thanks again for tuning in -- and happy training!

Summary: Julie Flanery has been working professionally with dogs and their handlers since 1993. She focuses on the needs of the dog and helping people form a strong relationship, through clear communication, and positive reinforcement. She has placed Obedience, Freestyle, Rally-Obedience, Rally-FrEe, Parkour, Agility, and Trick Dog titles on her dogs. She began competing in Musical Freestyle in 1999 and was the first to both title and earn a Heelwork to Music Championship on the West coast. In 2001 she was named "Trainer of the Year" by the World Canine Freestyle Organization and has been a competition freestyle judge since 2003. Five years ago Julie developed the sport of Rally-FrEe to help freestylers increase the quality and precision of their performances. It has since become a stand-alone sport enjoyed by dog sport enthusiasts all over the world. Julie has been a workshop and seminar presenter both nationally and internationally. She currently trains and competes with her Tibetan Terrier in both Musical Freestyle and Rally-FrEe. Next Episode:  To be released 9/07/2018, featuring Julie Daniels, talking about Building Canine Confidence. TRANSCRIPTION: Melissa Breau: This is Melissa Breau and you're listening to the Fenzi Dog Sports Podcast brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy, an online school dedicated to providing high-quality instruction for competitive dog sports using only the most current and progressive training methods. Today we’ll be talking to Julie Flanery. Julie has been working professionally with dogs and their handlers since 1993. She focuses on the needs of the dog and helping people form a strong relationship through clear communication and positive reinforcement. She has placed Obedience, Freestyle, Rally-Obedience, Rally-FrEe, Parkour, Agility, and Trick Dog titles on her dogs. She began competing in Musical Freestyle in 1999 and was the first to both title and earn a Heelwork to Music Championship on the West Coast. In 2001 she was named "Trainer of the Year" by the World Canine Freestyle Organization and has been a competition freestyle judge since 2003. Five years ago Julie developed the sport of Rally-FrEe to help freestylers increase the quality and precision of their performances. It has since become a stand-alone sport enjoyed by dog sport enthusiasts all over the world. Julie has been a workshop and seminar presenter both nationally and internationally. She currently trains and competes with her Tibetan Terrier in both Musical Freestyle and Rally-FrEe. So welcome back to the podcast Julie! Julie Flanery: Thanks Melissa. Melissa Breau: To start us out, can you just remind everybody a little bit of information about your dog and what you do with her? Julie Flanery: I have Kashi and she is my 8-year-old Tibetan Terrier. She thinks her primary job is to keep our home safe from all of those wild rabbits out there. She will sit forever, just staring at the fence line, waiting for one to pop its head through, or if she sees one on the other side of the fence, she’ll calmly sit and wait until they believe she’s no threat, then she goes into stalk mode. My sweet, little, adorable dog has four kills to her name now. So it’s kind of funny, because despite her breed name, there is no terrier in Tibetan Terriers, so it wasn’t something that I expected in her. But she is really, really fun to train, and I find something enjoyable and fun about her every single day. She makes me laugh every single day. I currently compete with her in Musical Freestyle and Rally FrEe. And maybe in the fall we might be adding a puppy to the family, but I’m not quite sure yet on that. So more news to come, maybe. Melissa Breau: I will be excited to hear that, if it happens. Julie Flanery: I will too. Melissa Breau: I bet. So, I wanted to have you on tonight to talk about something that I think is probably pretty important to a good percentage of our listeners. I want to talk about heeling. Non-freestylers may not realize it, but heelwork is a pretty big part of freestyle, right? Can you just talk a little bit about the role it plays in the sport? Julie Flanery: To anybody that has done obedience, there is nothing more beautiful than a joyful heeling dog. We all have that picture in our head, and what it looks like, and it can take your breath away. The only thing I think might be more beautiful is watching a freestyle routine with a joyful heeling dog, and maybe I’m biased there, but I think that adds a whole ’nother level of animation to heelwork. Heelwork is really what holds a freestyle routine together. We often talk about it’s the glue that holds it together, but I think it’s really so much more than that. In terms of holding the routine together, it’s very easy to get lost in a routine. We have 3 minutes of 50 to 80 cued behaviors, and we don’t always remember our full routine. No matter how much you memorize your routine, and no matter how much you work your routine, it doesn’t always go as planned. I have never met a freestyler that said, “Oh yeah, we went out there and it was perfect.” So you have to be a little prepared for that, and having a dog that understands heelwork, has a strong desire to be in heel, one that defaults to a standing heel position, then your dog is always in a right place where you can make things right again. It also means your dog can maintain a sense of purpose. If he’s not quite sure where he should be, or what he should be doing, either maybe there’s a wrong cue, or I screwed up something in my choreography, he can maintain that level of confidence and joy by defaulting to a heel position, and it gives me the confidence then to pull us out of whatever scrape we’ve gotten into. In freestyle, we train our behaviors, especially behaviors that we use as transitions from a position to a position, so whatever behavior I’m going to include in my freestyle routines, I train it where my dog starts in a heelwork position. In order for that behavior to be completed, she has to come back to a heelwork position, and if she doesn’t understand those positions, then I’m going to lose the accuracy and precision of the behaviors. Those positions give me a stronger execution of all of my freestyle behaviors. So without that understanding, many of my freestyle behaviors are going to degrade, and if the dog isn’t set up correctly, then not only is that behavior not going to be accurate, but my next behavior isn’t going to start in a correct place and it’s going to lose its accuracy and precision. So having a dog that understands their heelwork positions is incredibly important in freestyle, because without it, everything else is going to fall apart, and that’s why we say it’s the glue that holds the routines together. I think that many see freestyle as kind of a loosey-goosey sport, you know, you go out and you move and you dance with your dog, and you have them do some tricks. But if you look at some of the world’s best freestylers, those handlers understand and utilize heelwork to give their routines that polish, that unity, that really make their routines stand out. So I think as we are moving forward in the sport, more freestylers are trying to make heelwork a much more important piece of their training program than maybe it was in the past. Melissa Breau: You mentioned in there that you’re looking for a joyful demeanor in heeling. Can you talk more about that and describe what you’re looking for when you’re training your dog to heel? What does that final picture really look like? Julie Flanery: As you said, first and foremost, I need my dog to learn to love heeling. That’s for the reasons mentioned above, but also I want her both to look and I want her to feel happy when she’s heeling. If heeling allows her to be in a happy emotional state, then she’s more likely to be able to ignore the environment, she’s better able to take and respond to cues, she understands and loves that job of heeling. If she or I get lost in a routine, her default will be to stay in heel, and if she can do that, I can get us through those rough patches. In terms of physical appearance, I like my dog’s head up. I like her looking at my face. That’s both because I think it looks pretty, but that’s kind of my security blanket. I think if she’s looking at me, she must be paying attention. So that’s part of my picture. I want her looking up at my face as part of my training. I like that the front end to be lifted so that the weight is off of the shoulders and you can get more lift to the chest and in the front feet. I like a dog that has a little bit of a prance to it, so I try to work that into my criteria. What people may not know is that in freestyle, the dog and handler team choose their own heelwork position. So if the dog is a little wide, but consistently a little wide, always that distance from the handler, then no points are taken off. Small dogs oftentimes are a little more comfortable not being right under the handler’s feet, so that’s an example where a handler might decide to allow their dog to have a little more distance from them. As long as that distance is consistent, then it doesn’t hurt the score any. I like my dog to forge a little, to show off that little prance that she has. So as long as she is consistent in her position, that she’s always forging that little bit, maybe my leg is closer to her shoulder or rib, and as long as she maintains that position in relation to me, then that’s not going to hurt our score any. And it actually showcases the part of her heelwork which I really love, which is that little foot action that she sometimes has. So in freestyle there’s some leeway. There’s some ability to customize your heelwork position as long as it’s consistent. So you can choose, or use A.K.C’s definition, or whatever organization you show obedience under, or you could vary from that a little bit to either help your dog be more comfortable in heeling or to showcase something that your dog really does well. Melissa Breau: Obviously, heeling is a super-complex thing to train. Just from that description, you talked about all these pieces of that criteria. Different trainers start with different bits and different approaches. I’d love to hear how you approach it. How do you get started? Julie Flanery: Like all training, we have to look at both the physical criteria and the emotional component. Heelwork is physically demanding, so I want to make sure that my dog is getting a really high enough rate of reward and value of reinforcement for all of that hard work, and I want to maintain that high rate of reward for a really long time, probably much longer and with much greater frequency than I do for other behaviors. Hand touches are a huge part of my heelwork. They help me both create position and lift and fun, and I can do all sorts of games with my hand touches. And yes, there is a right way and a wrong way to teach a hand touch, and people will learn that in the class that I’m doing in October. Platforms also, both standing platforms and pivot platforms, are really important in my program. It’s where I start to add the cue. It’s where I know with certainty that I can get my dog to perform that precision criteria that I really want. And the dog learns to use his rear end in a way through the pivot platforms that helps him maintain position. So those are really big tools that I use. Shaping is part of my heelwork training. I think a dog that understands how to offer correct positioning can fix an issue without waiting for the handler to do it for them, and I think in heelwork that’s huge. It also helps to build a desire to get to heel and stay in heel. That shaping includes both finding the position while I’m stationary and also while I’m moving. For example, I really like Dawn Jecs’ Choose To Heel protocol, and that’s all about shaping how to find a moving heel position. Too, with shaping, I don’t necessarily want to use the cue I started to add on the platforms, so I want my dog to understand that she doesn’t have to wait for a cue to give me either some or all of that criteria. So shaping gives the dog control of that reinforcement in a lot of different ways, and if she can offer that heelwork criteria that I’ve been working on at any time, or those things that earn rewards, then that puts me ahead of the game, because I don’t have to work as hard at getting that criteria all the time. And then, of course, there’s fun and games. We don’t want to forget that. Those things are where we don’t really worry about precision or accuracy at all. The rewards come for moving with me or moving to my side with lots of enthusiasm, and it’s that attitude that I want to really create and reinforce through games. So I teach technical aspects and then I also teach the fun and games aspects all in the same timeline. I don’t do one first and then the other. They’re both being played and trained all in the same timeframe. Once the dog has some experience in each of those, I can start to combine those components. But really I find that it’s the dog that starts to combine them. You’ll be playing a game and that promotes those certain attributes, like lift, enthusiasm, and all of a sudden she’ll move into a perfect heel position. Those are the times you want to be really ready and willing to click. It’s those one or two steps in the middle of a game that she’s suddenly offering, and that’s what’s really cool, when the dog says, through their offering of the things you’ve been reinforcing, that doing this precision work is really part of the game. That’s what I think is really, really fun to see. Of course, I use the games to sneak in the different components. So a game of chase could turn into clicking collection as soon as I start to slow down, or a game of “catch me if you can,” where I might use a bit of opposition reflex, will turn into the dog putting some lift and energy into that first step off in heel. So the dog is doing these components as part of that fun game again, and all of the components, whether they’re the game pieces or whether they’re the precision and accuracy pieces, they’re all getting heavily reinforced and rewarded, so I can get both that physical criteria, the technical criteria, and a dog that thinks that this is just all one big game. So that’s how I look at it. Because both of those pieces are super-important, I don’t think I would want one without the other. Certainly you don’t want this enthusiastic, bouncy, out-of-control dog without that precision and accuracy, and that precision and accuracy really just isn’t the picture that I have in my mind of beautiful heelwork without all that enthusiasm and joy. So I want to make sure that in my program I’m bringing them both together, but training them kind of separately. Melissa Breau: That’s interesting. It’s kind of a different approach. Julie Flanery: Yeah. I think a lot of people want both those things, and maybe they’re just putting it together in a slightly different way. But I really like it when the dog says, “Oh, this gets rewarded too,” and “Oh, I really like doing this just as much as I like the game aspect of it.” Because even though they’re rewarded separately, the dog learns to bring those two things together. They say everything bleeds in training. One piece of criteria sometimes will bleed into another piece of criteria. Or one action will bleed into another. One behavior will bleed into another. Those things that are reinforced will bleed into each other. And this is an area where you want that. Some areas you don’t want that. This is an area where you really do want that. Melissa Breau: We talked a little bit in there about obedience versus freestyle. I’m curious, how does the heelwork you want in freestyle compare to what somebody might want for the obedience ring? What are some of the similarities or differences? Julie Flanery: In both sports, obviously, you want that lift, that animation, that focus, the precision. In freestyle, the dog heels on both the right and the left side, so there’s some additional training time that needs to be put into that. Even if you don’t do freestyle, it’s a good idea to train heelwork on both sides to help build symmetry in muscle development, and I think more and more handlers are starting to do that. In freestyle, we teach heelwork as a specific place in relation to the handler while standing. So there are no default sits in freestyle. In obedience, there seems to be a lot of emphasis on the sit in heel. When you think about it, though, when heeling, I would guess that maybe 90 percent of the time the dog is actually on all fours, standing. So I think it’s important in training to separate out the sit-in-heel from the stand-in-heel from the move-in-heel. They’re all very different components with very different criteria. It’s easy to start to lump them together in our training, and I think that’s oftentimes to the detriment of some of the overall wholeness of our heelwork. If we spend too much time on that sit and heel, sit and heel, getting into to sit and heel, we may not be spending an appropriate amount of time on teaching the dog where he should be when he’s standing in relation to our body, and when he’s moving in relation to our body. Does that make sense? Melissa Breau: Yeah, absolutely. I think that’s an interesting point, because you’re right, I see a lot of people practice especially that setup. Julie Flanery: The setup is huge. In freestyle, the other thing is that we heel in a variety of directions, not just forward. We’ll go sideways or laterally, we’ll be backing in heel or backing in right heel. In obedience, the dog generally is always propelling themselves forward, whereas in freestyle the dog learns that the handler may move in any direction, and that their job is to stay in position no matter what that direction is. While we do see more and more obedience handlers seeing the value of that, teaching multidirectional heelwork, it’s not required in the obedience ring the same way it is in freestyle. So it’s something that freestylers spend a lot of time on, whereas I think obedience trainers don’t spend quite the amount of time on it that we have to in freestyle. So I think that gives the dog a much better understanding of where that position is. I train it, I think most freestylers … maybe not all, but I know I train heelwork as a stationary position in relation to the handler. It’s not a moving skill for me to start, for my dog to start. The staying with me is a byproduct of the movement. So if my dog understands that she should be at my left side or at my right side, with her shoulder at my pant seam, then if I take a step backwards and she finds enough value in being there, she’s going to work to get there and stay there. If I step sideways, she’s going to work to get there and stay there. If I step forward, if I pivot, wherever my leg goes, she’s going to work hard to stay there. But I think some handlers skip the step of building value in the position in relation to the handler and spend more time on teaching the setup, the sit, or teaching forward movement. I think they would have those things if the reinforcement, the time, the energy was spent in teaching the dog to find value in just staying in the position stationary before we start adding a lot of movement, and then teaching the dog to move in more than one direction. I think that generalizes what we’re trying to teach them, that this is the place we want you to be, this is Disneyland, this is the sweet spot. Everything good happens here, and you only have to do one thing. You don’t have to think about moving forward, you don’t have to think about moving sideways, you don’t have to think about a pivot. All you have to think about is being right here at my side. I use only a single cue for all of my heelwork, whether I’m going backwards, whether I’m going forwards, or whether I’m doing a lateral side pass or pivoting. It’s all the same cue because it’s all the same behavior to the dog. I think that might be a little bit different than what many obedience handlers train. I think a lot of time is spent on forward-moving heelwork and on the setup. So I think that’s something people will see a little bit differently in freestyle training. Melissa Breau: I could certainly see how teaching the dog the concept of heelwork from that perspective of sticking with the handler rather than necessarily about a specific direction of what have you. I can see how that would be really valuable, regardless of the sport. Julie Flanery: To me, I think it simplifies the skill for the dog. It totally simplifies the skill. And in freestyle, again, we have a lot of cues in freestyle. We’re constantly saying, “Oh my God, I’m running out of cues.” To be able to have all of those behaviors — backing in heel, pivots in heel, side passes in heel, forward in heel, forward 360s — to have all of those behaviors be a single cue, I think that really clarifies it for the dog, and it makes it so much easier on both the dog and the handler. The dog doesn’t have to learn all of these different cues and what are the behaviors that they attach to those. They need to learn one cue and one skill. So I think it really simplifies it and clarifies it for the dog. Melissa Breau: If I understand correctly, one additional piece that maybe you didn’t get into so much is the value that you place on teaching the dog to really listen to a verbal in freestyle and not be cueing so much off your body language. Can you talk a little bit about that, why it’s important and how you work on it? Julie Flanery: No matter what, our dogs are always going to cue off of our bodies to some extent, and even if you have strong verbal cues, they do look to our bodies for information. In freestyle we want our verbal cues to override the value of what’s happening with our bodies. That takes a very strong reinforcement history for verbal cues and it takes a very specific process or protocol to teach those verbal cues. I may want to use my body, my arms, my legs, how I tilt my head, to interpret the music, to basically dance to the music or convey a story through a skit. I want my dog to be able to ignore what I’m doing with my body and favor what I’m cuing verbally. I want to appear as if my dog is performing of her own accord. I don’t want the audience to see my cues, as that can really disrupt the magic that we’re trying to present. We’re trying to show that the dog is not just a willing participant, but is actually initiating parts of this dance. That’s really the magic of freestyle is when those cues are hidden, when you can’t tell that the dog is being cued, and it appears as if he’s initiating these behaviors. That, to me, is really the magic of freestyle. That’s what I want to portray out there. In getting that, if I really want it, if I need my dog to really respond to my verbal cues, I need to count on his response to those verbal cues, I need to follow a specific protocol that’s going to help her truly learn the meaning of those cues. I think that, for the most part, handlers make the assumption that if they’re saying it, the dog is learning it, or if they make their hand cue smaller and smaller, the dog will take the information from what we’re saying, rather than that little bit of a hand cue that’s left, and that’s just often not true. We know that by the number of times we say things and our dog just looks at us like, “What?” It’s not until we provide some measure of body cuing that they say, “Oh, it was this. This is what you wanted.” They’ll certainly pick up meanings of certain words that way and phrases over time, you know, “Are you ready to go for a walk?” “Are you ready to get your ball?” And even obedience cues, yes, they will understand those to a certain degree. But I don’t have the time or luxury to assume that they will learn it, either on their own or using a less efficient method. Like I said, I really need to count on that response in the ring. Otherwise, my performance is just not going to appear polished. If my dog misses a cue in a freestyle routine, the music keeps playing. I can’t give the hand cue then and hope she does it right, because I’ve already lost the opportunity to showcase that behavior. I’ve already lost the opportunity to have it match the phrasing in the music. So having strong verbal cues is imperative to the freestyler, if they want to put out a really polished routine. And again, we want those cues to be hidden. We don’t want it to look like I’m showing my dog that he needs to spin. I want my dog to spin at a point in the music because the music moved him to spin, or it looks like the music moved him to spin, not that I’m actually cuing him to spin. And in that same vein I need to proof my cues against my own body movement, because I might be doing something totally different. I might be moving my arm in an opposite direction of the way I want him to spin. So I’ve got to proof those cues against not only the distractions, like we normally proof in training, but I’m going to have to give my verbal cue and make my body do something weird, and reinforce my dog for choosing what I said over what I did. So that’s a little bit of added training in terms of cueing for freestylers And then as well, freestylers teach choreographed body movements as new cues. If I know I’m going to use my body in a certain way, I’m going to spin a certain direction, I’m going to put my leg up this way or whatever, I can actually teach my dog that that movement, even though it’s not a lure-like or a leading action, that movement means to do something. It is a cue to do something. But it’s not being used as a leading cue, like if I were putting my hand out in a circle to get my dog to spin. But that’s a whole ’nother podcast. That’s freestyle, not heelwork. Melissa Breau: Right, right. I know you have a class coming up on this stuff in October. Can you share a little bit on what you’re planning to cover there? What level of class? Is it foundations? Is it intermediate? Problem solving? And maybe a little bit about what skills someone should have if they’re interested in taking it? Julie Flanery: In a sense, it’s a foundation class. However, it’s going to be most suited to teams where the dog already has some understanding, and has some reinforcement history, of being near or in heel position in relation to the handler. They don’t have to have strong heeling behaviors. They don’t have to have perfect heelwork by any stretch of the imagination. But if they have started on their heelwork skills, and they want to get more out of their training and more out of their dog, they want more joy and lift and precision — we’re going to go over precision and accuracy as well — but if the picture they see in their head of a beautiful heeling dog is not what they’re getting out of their dog in training, then this would be a great class for them. We are going to go over some precision and accuracy. We are going to go through a lot of different ways there are to build joy in our heelwork training. And then we’re going to be using a lot of reinforcement history and value in each of those pieces to allow the dog to bring that together. We’re also going to talk a lot about appropriate expectations in your heelwork. There are certain limitations. If you have a certain picture of what you want, and your dog’s structure dictates that that just isn’t going to happen, we still want to get the prettiest and best performance out of your dog that we can get. The Bulldog is not going to heel the same way that a Border Collie or a Belgian is going to heel, so we do want to take those things into account, but there’s still things that we can do to work towards that picture, or build a more dramatic style of heelwork for your dog. Melissa Breau: You mean a Bulldog can’t get quite that same lift? Julie Flanery: Not quite, not quite. Melissa Breau: Poor guys. Julie Flanery: Doesn’t mean they can’t do beautiful heelwork. I just saw the most gorgeous bulldog — actually it was a mix. I think there was some French bulldog in it, and something else, and oh my gosh, that dog just had such spark in his heelwork, and it was beautiful. It was just gorgeous. No, it wasn’t a Terv and no it wasn’t a border collie. It was just … for that dog, it was just gorgeous heeling, and I enjoy that as much as I enjoy seeing the some of the dogs whose structure is more conducive to the type of heeling that we picture in our heads as being beautiful and joyful. Melissa Breau: One of the things on your syllabus that caught my eye was that you’re planning on including some information on reinforcement strategies. I know that that’s a big topic. What are some of the common reinforcement strategies someone might want to use when working on heeling? And maybe a little on how to decide which ones you want to use and when? Julie Flanery: Something to note about reinforcement strategies that I think people aren’t fully aware of, or don’t fully grasp about why we use different reinforcements strategies: Reinforcement strategies are a way to alter future behavior and not the behavior you are currently rewarding. For example, if I feed with my dog’s head slightly away from me, it’s not an effort to lure her bum in, but rather to get her to start thinking about where reinforcement happens for the next reps. So if I reward the dog — let’s say just for fronts — if I reward the dog for coming into front by tossing between my legs, I’ve already clicked the behavior. I’ve already said, “You are getting a reward for what you just did.” But by tossing the treat or the toy between my legs, she’s more likely to line up straight and in a way that she can efficiently get to reward faster on the next rep, and that benefits future behavior. So if I want my dog, say, to take the weight off of her front and drive from her rear for heelwork, I’m likely going to have her reach up and forward a little for her reward, maybe give a little jump up to get her reward. If she starts thinking about that on the next few steps of heelwork and begins to think of, Reward’s coming, reward’s coming, where is it? Oh, it’s going to be up high, she starts to lift herself in preparation for that, and that gives me something I can click. That bit of lift she’s offering in preparation to take the next reward gives me my criteria shift, lets me click that behavior. Melissa Breau: Even though you designed the class thinking about freestyle, would the class still be a good fit for somebody whose primary interest is obedience or Rally? We talked a little bit about this already, but how would the skills that you value in heeling and in the class for freestyle carry over into those sports? Julie Flanery: Just given the things we’ve talked about, I think that all of those things, any obedience handler or Rally handler would like to have those things. Especially in Rally, the backing up, in backing up we want that skill to be a very thoughtful, deliberate action on the dog’s part, and I think that in Rally sometimes we’ll see handlers Band-Aiding that a little bit by rushing backwards in an effort to use the dog’s wanting to stay with them, but not really working on the precision aspect of that. For Rally skills such as the side pass — they do side passes in Rally, and they do backing up and heel in Rally — absolutely this class is going to benefit those. In obedience, again, freestylers are really looking for the same attributes in heelwork that obedience handlers are looking for. So, in many ways, a lot of these things … as a matter of fact, when I worked in obedience, these are a lot of the same skills that I did when I worked in obedience and Rally. The only place where there may not be carryover, and of course this is always added later anyway, would be the sits in heel, the automatic sits, the setup in a sit. But that’s going to be added later anyway. The way I train heelwork, it’s not something I add at the start. It’s actually going to benefit those obedience folks who maybe have centered their heelwork around that setup or the sit and heel. This is actually going to solidify your dog’s understanding of what it means to keep their body in relation to yours while they’re standing in heel, and while they’re moving forward in heel, and while they’re moving in any direction in heel. So yeah, I think that could definitely benefit obedience and Rally handlers. Melissa Breau: We talked a bunch about the October class, but I think you have a few other things you’re working on, right? Anything you care to mention? Julie Flanery: Yeah, just a few! I’m still working on the heeling class, too. I think I just scheduled to do some webinars. I’m not sure when they’re scheduled for, exactly. There was a lot of interest in the mimicry classes that I did, so we thought we would put that in a nutshell and let people experience what that protocol is all about, and try it a little bit with their dogs. So I’ll be doing a webinar on mimicry. And because my interest is Musical Freestyle and Rally FrEe, and I get a lot of questions from people about “What is it?” “How do you get started?” “How is it different?” So I’m going to do a webinar on Musical Freestyle and Rally FrEe, how they’re related to each other, some of the skills and behaviors that we use, how to start training for that. I’m really looking forward to that one because of course that’s my passion. I have another class, I think it’s in December maybe, a new class for me, also, Mission Accomplished. That class is going to focus on finishing up and completing all of those dozens of behaviors that we all start and never finish. That might be maybe because we’re stuck, we don’t know how to finish it, or maybe it’s just because we love that acquisition phase. We love starting new behaviors, and so we have dozens of new behaviors started, but we can’t seem to complete any of them. So we’ll help you get through and complete some of those. I’m really looking forward to that class, too. I think it will help a lot of people get over some training humps that they might be experiencing with some behaviors, and so they just move on because they don’t know where to go from there. So that’s going to be a really fun class, I think, too. Melissa Breau: Not that I’ve ever done that — had a behavior that I … Julie Flanery: No, none of us! I’m actually pretty good at finishing out behaviors, because in freestyle I have so many behaviors that I could use. Anything I want to train, I could figure out how to use it in freestyle. So I always have a motivation usually to finish out a behavior, or if I’ve got a theme that I want to use, or anything like that. I always have use for the behaviors that I train, and that motivates me to complete them. Melissa Breau: I’m sure that will be a popular class because I’m sure it’s pretty common. To round things out, my last question for everyone these days — what’s something you’ve learned or been reminded of recently when it comes to dog training? Julie Flanery: You know, I’ve heard you ask that question before, and so I knew that was coming up. There was a post, a Facebook post, the other day from one of our Fenzi family members. Esther Zimmerman talked about her Golden, and her Golden starting to refuse some cues, or just not seeming right in training. She talked about some of the steps she went through in her own mind — oh gosh, I’m going to get teary-eyed about this, oh dear — about how her dog’s welfare, and listening to what her dog was telling her, and not assuming that the dog was being stubborn, or blowing her off, or spiteful, or any of those things that we sometimes hear or maybe even sometimes think that in our own training, and that by really considering our dog’s point of view, and why they might not be responding the way they normally do, that really hits home with me. And gosh, this is horrible, Melissa! Melissa Breau: I think I know the post you’re talking about, where she was, like, the first day your dog doesn’t seem quite into training, OK, well, we just won’t do this today, and put them away. The next day, they’re still not quite into training and you’re, like, “Hmm, I wonder if there’s something wrong,” and by the third day it’s, “OK, it’s time to go see a vet.” Julie Flanery: And there really was something wrong, and it was just so kind of her, the way she talked about this. I know we all have that same philosophy, but sometimes we need reminding of that. My dog has had health issues. She’s 8 years old now and she’s had health issues all of her life. It can be difficult for me to sometimes read whether this is due to discomfort, is she not feeling well, but in the end it really doesn’t matter what the reason is. What matters is that we take the dog into account, that we listen to what they’re telling us through their behavior, and that we don’t make assumptions about their motivation. They can’t tell us when they’re feeling not right, not good. And it might just be a little thing, but continuing to train when our animals are not feeling up to par … if you consider how do you feel when you go into work and you woke up with a stuffy nose and a headache or a migraine, you’re not going to be at your best, and you’re likely going to resent that workplace environment because you have to be there. So it just reminded me to take my dog into account and listen more to her when she’s giving me some of these signals. Sorry about that! I didn’t mean to go into soap opera mode! Melissa Breau: No, you’re fine. I think it’s a great reminder. Julie Flanery: I think that’s really, really important, and we can lose sight of that because we have goals in our training. We have goals when we are working in these performance sports. These aren’t our dogs’ goals. These aren’t our dogs’ goals, and thank goodness they’re willing to do this with us. So it’s up to us to protect them in these environments, in these training situations, where they may not be feeling all that well. So thank you, Esther, for reminding me of that fact. Keeping track of my dog, my dog’s health, and how she’s feeling during a training session. Her and Amy Cook. Amy Cook has really changed a lot of my perspectives these last couple of years in training. So a big shout-out to Amy Cook on her work with emotions and training as well. Melissa Breau: Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Julie. I’m so glad you could come back on the podcast. Julie Flanery: I am glad too. It was really, really fun. Thanks for having me. Melissa Breau: Absolutely. And thanks to all of our listeners for tuning in! We’ll be back next week, this time with Julie Daniels to talk building canine confidence. If you haven’t already, subscribe to our podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. CREDITS: Today’s show is brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzi for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty-free by BenSound.com; the track featured here is called “Buddy.” Audio editing provided by Chris Lang and transcription written by CLK Transcription Services. Thanks again for tuning in -- and happy training!

Summary: Hélène Lawler has been working with animals her whole life — she started by training her cat to use the toilet when she was 12! Since then she’s spent years heavily invested in both training and the rescue world. She’s dabbled in nosework, tracking, and Search and Rescue, and then began training agility in 2004, followed by herding in 2005. It didn’t take long before she was hooked. She won the Ontario novice herding championship in 2008, after just two years of training with her dog Hannah, and together they went on to become an Open level team while simultaneously competing in agility to the Masters level and qualifying for the AAC Canadian Nationals. Today, she runs a working mixed livestock farm, with sheep, goats, horses, and poultry … and she recently agreed to do a webinar for FDSA on herding and how to train it using positive reinforcement techniques! Next Episode:  NOTE: In the podcast I announce Sarah Stremming, who will actually be one week further out; we rescheduled last minute.  TRANSCRIPTION: Melissa Breau: This is Melissa Breau and you're listening to the Fenzi Dog Sports Podcast brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy, an online school dedicated to providing high-quality instruction for competitive dog sports using only the most current and progressive training methods. Today we’ll be talking to Helene Lawler. Hélène has been working with animals her whole life — she started by training her cat to use the toilet when she was 12! Since then she’s spent years heavily invested in both training and the rescue world. She’s dabbled in nosework, tracking, and Search and Rescue, and then began training agility in 2004, followed by herding in 2005. It didn’t take long before she was hooked. She won the Ontario novice herding championship in 2008, after just two years of training with her dog Hannah, and together they went on to become an Open level team while simultaneously competing in agility to the Masters level and qualifying for the AAC Canadian Nationals. Today, she runs a working mixed livestock farm, with sheep, goats, horses, and poultry … and she recently agreed to do a webinar for FDSA on herding and how to train it using positive reinforcement techniques! Hi Helene, welcome to the podcast! Helene Lawler: Hi Melissa. Thank you so much for having me here. I’m really excited. Melissa Breau: Did I get the name pronunciation right there? Helene Lawler: Yes, you did. Melissa Breau: Yes! Score! So, to start us out, do you want to share a little bit about each of your dogs and anything you’re working on with them? Helene Lawler: OK, sure. Yes, I can always talk about my dogs. I currently have eleven, so this might take a couple minutes. Melissa Breau: Fair enough. Helene Lawler: First of all, I have Hannah, who you mentioned. She’s 12-and-a-half. She’s my main working dog on the farm these days. She’s still going strong. I don’t compete with her anymore, but she’s still quite active being my working partner and running the farm with me. I bred her once and I have two of her pups, Desiree and Clayton. They’re now 5. They both do work on the farm as well, and are advancing their herding skills. Desiree is training to be my next agility dog and fill her mother’s shoes in that respect. We’re hoping to start competing in the fall. I had another fantastic bitch who also helped me run the farm, and I unfortunately had to say goodbye to her last week for health reasons, Kestrel. I’ve actually lost three dogs in the last four months, so it’s been a difficult transition time for us all. But Kessie left me four wonderful pups from two different breedings, so I have Griffon and Raven, the bird puppies, who are two-and-a-half. They both have started their herding training and are showing great promise. I’m really pleased. Griffon is also doing … he’s been very slow to mature, so we’ve been doing Rally. He’s been my introduction to Rally, and I’m really enjoying that a lot. We have a lot of fun with that. And then I have Kestrel’s second litter of pups. I kept two back from that litter as well, Breganz and Jest. They’re 7 months old, so they’re showing lots of interest, but they’re not old enough to start training yet. So right now they’re just being feral puppies on the farm and having a good life. And then I have Aoife, who I imported from Ireland last year. She’s a Border Collie, and I think I mentioned all the others were Border Collies as well. Aoife is 14 months old, and I’ve just started working with her, and I’m really excited about her prospects as a working dog. She’s totally new lines to me, and something completely new and different and really fun and great, so I’m very excited about her. And then I have my Kelpie, Holly, who is the one who has put me on this whole journey of positive reinforcement herding training. She is 8 and still going strong and doing well. We do some stock training around the farm, and she’s really good at nosework, and we’ve been dabbling in barn hunt, and she’s also very athletic and loves to do tricks. And then finally I have my guardian dogs, who are maremmas, Mikey, and Juno. They live full-time outside and patrol the property, and care for the sheep and keep them safe, because we have an awful lot of wolves around here, so I need some good guardians. They’ve actually been a lot of fun. They’re good farm dogs, but they’re just as trainable as the Border Collies, so I have some fun doing foundation stuff with them as well. Melissa Breau: Excellent. You mentioned a lot of wolves. Where are you based? Helene Lawler: I live in eastern Ontario, rural eastern Ontario. We have bush wolves. They’re coyote-wolf hybrids. They’re probably about a 65-pound animal, and they have very little fear of humans and a taste for livestock. I have taken the approach of having a good, hard defense, so I use electric fencing and guard dogs, and that’s been working quite well to convince them to just go and raid other farms. So it’s working quite well. Melissa Breau: How did you wind up in this world? What got you started, and what got you started specifically in herding? Helene Lawler: Well, it’s a long story. I’ll try to make it brief. When I was an undergrad, I had a neighbor who had a dog who … undergrad student didn’t take very good care of his dog, so I used to sneak over and take the dog for walks when he was away at classes. I fell in love with the dog, and then he very wisely rehomed the dog, and I didn’t know that was happening, so I didn’t get a chance to ask for her. So I went out to look for my own dog, and I ended up finding a Border Collie puppy who I named Jake, who ended up being the love of my life and my best friend. Together we went on an incredible journey for 14 years, travelled extensively and … you know how some people get the really challenging dog of their life upfront? He was the perfect dog for me. He was just super-smart and he was this incredible teacher, so I learned so much from him about training. He was like the littlest hobo, the campus dog, he used to come to class with me and sit outside and wait. Back in the day, this was 1989, the laws were not quite as restrictive as they are now with dogs, so he was everywhere with me off leash. We’d go to the pub, we’d go shopping, he’d wait outside stores. I took him everywhere, and he was one of those traditional, old-school Border Collies that fell into place and did everything I needed him to do without me having to know much about training. He was like my live business card — everywhere I went, people would be like, “Wow, your dog’s so well trained. Can you teach me?” So I started getting into teaching other people because of Jake, wasn’t necessarily the most effective way of teaching, but I figured it out. So I did end up teaching other people, and I got into it quite seriously for a while of being a dog walker and trainer, and then went in a different direction after that, after doing that exploration for about a year or two. One day, while I was traveling across the country with Jake — because we traveled extensively all over North America, a girl and her dog — we were at a truck stop, and of course Jake was off leash, as usual. He was sitting on the picnic bench next to me while I was having lunch, and suddenly he just took off — very unusual for him. I raced after him, and what he had taken off after was a big tractor-trailer load of sheep that had pulled into the truck stop. He did an outrun and stopped the tractor-trailer, and I had in that moment the realization that my dog had missed his calling, and I had a pang of regret that I was never able to let him do what he was bred to do. So I promised myself and Jake, in that moment, that my next dog would get to work sheep. At that point, Jake was 8 and we were living in big cities, and it was just not an option for him. But I did hold true, and so fast-forward a few years later, I guess it was about five or six years later. I was living in London, Ontario, at the time, and Jake had passed away, and I was looking for my new Border Collie, and I found Hannah. She was working bred, and her breeder lived about 45 minutes from me and had offered to train me to do stock work with her because she wanted to see her puppies out working sheep. So that’s how I got started. I was actually so excited about it that I took lessons for a year before Hannah was ready to get started. Before she was even conceived I started taking lessons, waiting for the breeding and then waiting for her to grow up. I went and I worked the farm with her breeder and learned how to manage sheep without a dog, which is actually an invaluable skill for anybody who wants to herd. I strongly recommend it. And I never looked back. Melissa Breau: What got you started in positive reinforcement training? Have you always been a positive trainer with that approach, or do you consider yourself a crossover trainer? How did that piece of it come into play? Helene Lawler: Yes, I would say that I’m a crossover trainer. Back in the 1980s, when I first started training, it was all alpha rolls and collar pops, unfortunately. However, I have always used some positive reinforcement in my training. I was one to always use lots of praise and food and things like that. So I guess technically I would be considered a balanced trainer, by today’s definition. I don’t love that term, but I know that’s how it’s used today. But I definitely was not exclusively positive in my training by any stretch back in the day. After Jake died in 2004, I wanted to do something in his memory. I did a bunch of research and I found Glen Highland Farm Border Collie Rescue in New York state, which was close to me where I was living at the time, and I thought I wanted to make a donation in his memory. So I went to check them out and ended up falling in love with the place and staying and doing a bunch of volunteer work. There’s a long story around this that I won’t go into right now, but I ended up adopting one of the dogs, not surprising when I was there, Ross. And Ross was … he passed in April of this year, so we’re still kind of adjusting to that change in my life, but he was a huge, tremendous influence in my life around positive reinforcement. He was a dog that had an unknown background, that showed incredible fear and a lot of rage, a lot of anxiety, and a strong willingness to try and control the world through a lot of bluff, bluster, and aggression. I quickly figured out that he couldn’t tolerate anything other than positive reinforcement in his interactions with me. I had to build trust with this dog. He was just so ready to be defensive about everything. And I just had to figure it out with him. I didn’t even really know what positive reinforcement training was, in any sort of clear definition of the word or even as a philosophy. It was just how I had to relate to him. Looking back, I now see that’s what it was. He really got me to think outside the box of how to work with him, and working with him also got me hooked on rescue. And so I started doing work more locally to me at this point in Ontario with other rescue groups and found a terrific mentor. Her name is Cindy Boht, and she runs Border Collie Rescue Ontario, and she really opened my eyes to a lot of positive reinforcement methods. She is completely — she still is to this day — completely dedicated to this philosophy of working with dogs. She taught me an awful lot, and that’s how I really got launched on the path. Melissa Breau: So today, how would you describe your current philosophy, or your current training approach, I guess? Helene Lawler: Today I try to be 100 percent positive-reinforcement-based in my training. I have to admit that I’m not always there, but that is my intention and my goal and I’m always striving for it. Working on a farm, running a farm, there are always things that happen that are beyond my control, as much as I try and manage things, so I try to have really good fencing, I try to have a very good system. But I have livestock and I have Border Collies and sometimes things go south, so sometimes I’m not always successful in being completely positive in my approach. But whenever I do encounter that, I see that as a failure on my part and then I spend some time thinking about how I can make sure that doesn’t happen again, how I can work through it, how I can train it, how I can better set up my management. So my general philosophy is to be 100 percent in practice. It’s something I’m striving for. Melissa Breau: I know on your website you talk about “force-free herding,” and you have this write-up about it. Can you explain what that phrase means to you and where it came from? Helene Lawler: Sure. Force-free herding is a term that I came up with in discussion with some other people around it. We were trying to find the best way to describe what we’re trying to accomplish here with developing a new method of training dogs to herd stock. I almost think that fear-free might be more apt than force-free, because sometimes we might actually use … depending on how you define force. For example, I will actually use a long line for some of the work that I do, so the dog is not completely at liberty. So it depends how strictly you want to stick to the term. But the general idea is to avoid the use of aversives or punishment when teaching dogs to work stock, so that’s my main goal. That has come about because, when I was training my dogs to work sheep, basically there’s a lot of aversive pressure used on the dogs to get them to do what we want to do. The reason for that is that they get into these fairly high states of arousal, and we need them to be able to think clearly and respond to our cues. And to do that, we need their brains to be in gear and functioning. So a quick and dirty way to do that is to use aversives to keep the dogs a little bit afraid or a lot afraid, depending on the dog, to keep their levels of arousal under wraps and so that they can pay attention and listen. If you don’t want to do that, which I do not want to do that, then how do we get our dogs to keep us in the picture when we’re working? That’s the challenge I’ve been facing with trying to develop a method of teaching my dogs how to work sheep without using pressure or any types of force or aversive or punishment. Melissa Breau: You started to answer this a little bit already, but next I was going to ask you how your approach is different than that traditional approach to training a herding dog. Can you just go into that a little bit more? Helene Lawler: Sure. Traditionally, like I said, people will use an aversive punishment or some level of pressure on the dog to get the dog to keep the handler in the picture. You asked how does what I’m doing differ from how somebody would traditionally train. It really depends on the trainer. I know some excellent trainers. I would say there would be very little difference, because everybody understands that it’s really critical for the dog to be confident and to have a good experience around stock, and I don’t think there’s anybody who would disagree with that. So people are not wanting their dogs to become afraid around sheep. The challenge, like I said before, is that we need to keep their level of arousal in check so that they can focus on what we’re asking them to do, and sometimes, a sharp, well-timed correction can be very clear and give the dog the information that it needs to be able to do the job properly. The really great handlers can do that and not have fallout from using a correction. But for the rest of us, and I certainly count myself in that group, I can’t use corrections and not have fallout, and I have certainly tried and failed many times. I don’t want to take that risk and have that damage to my relationship with my dogs, so what I try to do is find different ways to work with my dogs’ arousal levels. That’s really the key to developing a dog who can work stock without having to use the aversive methods, and that’s what I focus on with my training. So I look at trying to be able to clearly communicate with them and keep myself in the picture through working with their arousal levels around stock, and that can take a lot of work prior to ever going to stock. So I think that’s one of the biggest differences perhaps that you’ll find in how I train from how I trained before, and how I’ve trained with other people, is that I put a lot of foundation work into my dogs before they ever go to sheep, as a way of making sure that we have that clear communication, and they have those skills to be able to keep themselves in a state of arousal that is sufficient to do the work, but not so high that they can’t hear my cues and respond to them. Melissa Breau: I’d imagine, as somebody using positive training in a field where it’s … not yet … hopefully the norm, there have been times when you’ve been facing an uphill battle. What obstacles would you say you’ve had to overcome in the process of learning and now teaching herding using positive reinforcement? Helen Lawler: The biggest obstacles have been, well, first of all, not having a mentor to learn from, so having to figure this out from scratch. That’s been quite a challenge. I do have wonderful mentors in the positive reinforcement world, and so I’ve been studying what they’re doing and then trying to extrapolate from that and then putting into play in the herding setting. So it’s not like I’m working in a complete vacuum. Obviously I’ve got lots of material to work with. It’s translating that to the herding world that’s been the big challenge. A couple of other things that have been challenging for me is that I have yet to find a really systematic approach to follow to try to replicate. Everybody I’ve trained with in herding has their own method, which is similar to dog sports, but I feel like in agility in particular, which I know fairly well now, there really is a systematic way of training your dog, and you can break your training into small pieces, you can split, you can break it out. If you want to teach tight turnings on jumps, you can start that sitting quietly in your bathroom with a cone and have your dog just learn how to go around the cone, and then gradually build up to running in the field at high intensity. But with herding, you can’t really do that, and so I’ve had to figure out how to break down what my dog is doing into pieces that I can then take away from the sheep, take away from the field, and train them away and then bring it back. That’s been very challenging because there’s very little of that going on, and so it’s all things that I’ve had to figure out on my own. So that’s been quite a process. The other thing is trying to really know what I’m looking for when working with the sheep. What is it that it needs to really look like, and what does my dog need to be doing, and what is the picture supposed to be? Even understanding that is quite challenging. It takes years and years and years to be able to see what’s going on and really understand it and know that the dog is doing things correctly. When is the dog correct, when is the dog incorrect? The dog is usually correct a lot more often than the handler is. So as a green handler, I was learning along with my dog. That was tremendously difficult. It’s like a green rider on a green horse. There are just so many things to try and figure out in tandem that your brain short-circuits, so my poor dogs, they’ve had to learn along with me. Now, I said I haven’t had real mentors to follow, but my dogs have been incredible teachers, and I think they have taught me as much or more than anybody else, because they really show clearly when they’re confused, when they’re stressed, when they’re clear and confident, when I’m doing something that’s aversive to them. I’ve had to spend a lot of time studying my dogs and their reaction to what I’m doing to understand if I’m doing something that’s aversive, if I’m not clear, if I’m confusing to them, when they get it. I will do something, and my dog — you can see the light go on, and that tells me, Oh great, I figured out how to communicate this to the dog. What did I just do? And then I have to break that down. So one of the advantages of having, because I have quite a few dogs and I also work with other people’s dogs, is that I have all these fantastic canine teachers. And so really the dogs have led me through this, in particular my Kelpie. She’s really been the one who spearheaded this whole process. Melissa Breau: When you are facing one of those problems where most trainers who teach herding, or who train herding with their dogs, would turn to punishment or fear, how do you start to work on coming up with a positive solution instead? Do you have a method that you use, or a thought process you have in place? I’d love to hear a little bit more about your process. Helene Lawler: Sure. The first thing I do … as I mentioned earlier, sometimes things kind of go south around here, so my very first process when I do that is I go, OK, let’s just hit the brakes here. So I’ll usually end up picking up my dog and carrying it into the house, or whatever, and just stopping the whole scenario and thinking, OK, what just happened here? I then say to myself, OK then, use your big brain. You’re the one with the big human brain, so that’s what you have it for. Figure it out. I say that to myself all the time: Use your big brain. That gets me into a good analytical mode, and I think about it. I think, OK, What is training? I see training as essentially three things. It’s communication, it’s motivation, and it’s ability. My dogs are all very strongly working bred, so motivation is pretty much never an issue with my particular dogs. It can be with other dogs, but I don’t have to struggle too much with motivation. They’re keen. They want to work. So then I have to look at communication and ability. Am I communicating to the dog? Is the dog understanding what it is that I am saying or trying to express to them? If the answer is no, which it would be if they’re not doing what I’m asking them to, then I always assume that they are not doing it most likely because they don’t understand what they’re supposed to do. I don’t ever see my dogs as being willfully disobedient. I just don’t think they are. I think they’re just not clear on what they need to be doing. So then I go, OK, how can I better communicate? So then I really brainstorm. What can I do, and rarely do I ever mean verbally. It’s like, can I set things up better? Can I change the environment to make things more obvious? Can I use different sheep? Can I use some props? Can I use fencing more effectively? How can I better communicate what I want the dog to understand here? That’s a big part of my process is really trying to break it down. The other part of the process is does the dog … as I said, they have communication, motivation, and ability. Does the dog have the ability to do what I’m asking them to do? That can mean things like is my dog fit enough to not be tired while we’re working? Do they have the physical capability? I mentioned I have two 7-month-old puppies. They are crazy keen. They do not have the ability to physically do the work that I want them to do, nor do they have the mental ability to stay present while I’m working with them. So if I put them out on sheep right now, I can put out a group of sheep that will be quieter and move slowly, so that their soft muscles and not fully developed legs can still outrun the sheep. I would keep sessions really short and not ask anything of them, just let them work on instinct and let them drag a short line on a harness, so that when we’re done I can just stand on it and walk them off the field without expecting anything of them other than just working on instinct. I know that they’re not capable of really responding to me until their brains have fully developed, and sometimes that can be until they’re 2 or 3 years old, so I have to be aware of where the dog is at in terms of their physical and mental ability, If I feel like that is not where I need it to be for the type of work we’re doing, I’ll pull them off stock and do things away from stock for a while until we get to that point, be that fitness, be it more mental work. I mentioned my dog Griffon, who I do Rally with. When we go out to stock, there’s nobody home. He is just one big, fluffy, black-and-white ball of instinct, and so I can’t really ask him to do anything. Fortunately, he’s got lots of natural ability, so he doesn’t get into trouble, but I can’t really progress his training at this point, so I’ve just done other things with him. We do lots of hikes, we do Rally, we do lots of fun things while his body and brain develop, and if we don’t get seriously into training until he’s almost 3, so be it. So those are my approaches with my dogs. We look at communication, motivation for some dogs but not mine, and then really looking at their actual ability to do it. Melissa Breau: We were talking a little bit here about how you approach things, and I know you mentioned that you do more foundation work than some other trainers might. Can you share a little bit about how much of your training methods are foundation work — that is, before introducing or using stock, and how much of the training is done on stock? And maybe a little bit about the skills you teach as foundation behaviors? Helene Lawler: Sure. When it comes to my approach to using positive methods for herding, I should be clear: we don’t actually teach dogs to herd. I don’t teach my dogs to herd. I’ll step back for a second. As I said, my dogs are very strongly working bred, so they instinctively know how to herd. They have more herding ability in the tip of their tail than I have in my whole body and will learn in my entire life, so I am not teaching them to herd. Now, some breeds and some dogs actually do need to learn the skills, and those dogs we would train more mechanically. That’s a different ball of wax, not really what I’m talking about here. What I work with are dogs that are just big balls of instinct, that just want to get out there and work, and so I’m shaping that instinct. What I’m actually working on with the dog is how to put their natural instincts on cue. So there’s an awful lot of capturing, basically, and helping them with their arousal level so that they can put two and two together and they can recognize that my cue is asking them to do certain things, because often we’re going to be asking them to go against their instincts. So that’s what we’re really working on. The foundation training that I need them to do is an awful lot around building my relationship with them so that they want to partner with me. I want to look at their ability to manage their arousal levels on stock and keep me in the picture. I keep saying that, but that’s what’s really critical. If they will respond to me, if they can keep their arousal level such that they can hear and respond to my cues, then there’s no need to ever use an aversive. So I do a lot of work around arousals, often at quite a distance from the stock, often without even stock around to start, and you build gradually to that. So that’s a really big part of my foundation work. And then for actual skills, they need a stop, so that can either be a stop on their feet or a lie-down and a recall off stock. Those are the two critical skills that they need before they start doing any formal training. As long as they have that, I can pretty much work with anything else. So I do a lot of work on lie-downs in growing levels of arousal and around distraction and then recalls. And I do a tremendous amount of Premack. Premack goes through everything. All my training, I use Premack as my method for building my skills and my dogs’ because typically they don’t want anything else that I can offer. I can’t give them food or toys when they want to work sheep. They want it that badly. So I use the stock as the reward, and that is an extremely effective way, actually, of building these basic skills. So I have a bunch of exercises that I do, first off stock and then I bring it to stock, but outside the fence so they’re within view, and then we gradually build up to working right directly on the sheep. But the two critical skills are the stop and the recall, and the rest is all arousal training. And then there are little things like shaping a head turn, and a few little odds and ends, but those come in time. But the critical foundation pieces are those three. There’s another critical piece that I should mention, and that is that we need them to have … I like to use the term “dynamic impulse control,” which to me means the ability to control their impulses, have self-control, whatever you want to use, whatever terms you want to use, while the dog is in motion. We do an awful lot in sport training around having a dog who can hold still around distraction. But in herding we really need them to be able to stay, to maintain their impulse control while in motion, and that is also a key piece of the foundation training that I do with my dogs. Melissa Breau: I compete in treibball, so I work a German Shepherd, who is obviously a herding dog, in treibball, and it’s interesting to see the tie-ins to some of that stuff. It’s really interesting. Helene Lawler: I know people who say that that would be a good foundation sport to do. I’ve never done it myself, but I think that that could teach your dog some good skills that would be translatable, from what I know of the sport. Melissa Breau: It’s definitely not the same, but it’s interesting from a … a lot of dogs do have arousal problems around the ball, especially herding breeds, and there’s just lots of interesting pieces there that I could see having some carryover. I’ve never had the chance to test my dog on stock, but I think that would be a lot of fun to take her out because she’s got the treibball training, so it would see how much it holds up. Helene Lawler: Yeah, that would be really interesting to see. I didn’t have sheep for Hannah until we were already competing at the Open level, actually, and so I never told anybody this because I would have been laughed at, but I used to take a basketball out and she would herd the basketball. I used it to lengthen her out runs. I have no idea if that actually translated, but it gave me something to do at home, so I would just send her and she would do an out run on a basketball and lie down and flank back and forth around the basketball. It really brought out the instincts, so I thought, OK, I’m going to work with that. Melissa Breau: That’s so interesting. I know you’re doing a webinar for FDSA on this stuff. It’ll be next week when this airs. Would you mind sharing a little bit about what you plan to cover and give a little insight into the topic? Helene Lawler: Sure. The webinar is going to be diving deeper into what I’ve just been talking about: looking specifically at the intersection of sport training and herding, what crossover there is, how we can apply what we know from sport training to prepare our dogs for stock work, and also where some of the pitfalls might be. Some of the sport foundation training might actually be counterproductive to stock work. And at the same time, how stock work can help with dog sports, which is something that I have found. When I first started doing herding training, I had also recently discovered agility. What ended up happening was I did both sports with Hannah, and I couldn’t tell anybody in the herding world that I was doing agility, because they all thought it would ruin her for herding, and I couldn’t tell anybody in the agility world that I was doing herding, because they would all say that it would ruin her for agility. So I just kept my mouth shut and did both sports completely separately, and what I found was that they were very complementary. Hannah’s confidence in our teamwork just blossomed through agility that translated to working on stock. Her ability to focus on me, her dedication to the job, her start line stays, all these sorts of things were just phenomenal from herding when we took it to agility. So I found that the two sports really complemented each other beautifully, and I think more and more people are discovering that now. However, there are also pitfalls, and there are things that we do in both that can have some fallout. I think that that might be good insight for us around how to change our training across the board, and so that’s what I want to talk more about as well. Melissa Breau: Now obviously during the webinar you won’t be able to cover everything … Helene Lawler: No, I can talk for hours and hours and hours! Melissa Breau: Hey, most of us dog people can, especially about our sports. But I know you have your own site where you talk about some of this stuff. Do you want to share where folks can go for more information? Helen Lawler: My site for my dogs is kynicstockdogs.com. I also have a Facebook page with the same name. And I’m just getting up and running my dog-training site, shapingchaosdogtraining.com, which may be live by the time this airs. I’m hoping. I also have been in discussion and planning about starting a Fenzi herding group on Facebook, so that will hopefully be a great resource for people down the road in the near future. Melissa Breau: Yeah, that would be awesome. So the way I tend to end every episode with a first-time guest — I’ve got my three questions here. The first one is, what’s the dog-related accomplishment that you’re proudest of? Helene Lawler: I had to think long and hard about this, and I have quite a few I’d love to discuss, but in keeping with the discussion around herding, I’m going to focus on that. My proudest moment in herding was competing at Grass Creek Sheep Dog Trials, which is actually ongoing this week. I was there two years ago with Hannah. It was the competition we moved up to Open in, and it is one of the most difficult and prestigious sheep dog trials in North America. There are no novice classes in this trial. It is just purely Open. People come from far and wide, and even overseas, to compete in it, and you’re in there with the best of the best. So it was very, very intimidating, and really I was just proud of myself to be able to find the courage and have a dog who I knew I could count on, and that we were such a strong team that no matter what we faced out there, I knew that we would hold it together and do a good job, do our best. So I went out there with Hannah knowing I could count on her, Miss Cool As A Cucumber in the field. This dog, she just loves to compete when I don’t, so she really helped me with all my trial nerves and so on and so forth. She’s just amazing. She just loved the crowds, and she just loved the attention and the cameras and so on and so forth. So anyway, at this competition you get to run twice. The very first time we went out, it was early in the week. It was on Wednesday, and there weren’t that many people watching, and it was the workweek, so we just went out and we worked our dogs. I said, OK, I’m just going to pretend like I’m at home, and I set myself three goals. The first one was that I wasn’t going to lose my dog. I didn’t want her going out and losing her sheep and running after them, and me having to walk down the field to go get her. I didn’t want to lose my sheep and have them go bolting off into the woods, and I didn’t want to lose my cool. So I sent my dog and she’s so great. She got her sheep, and she didn’t lose her sheep, and she didn’t go running off after them back to the setout. She brought them to me and I was so proud of her. But I have to say, I was pretty stressed, and so by the time she got them to me and I was just so relieved, but I started stressing enough that I started losing my cool. So I thought, OK, I’m just going to call it quits here. I turned to the judge and I said, “Thank you,” and I exhausted the sheep, and I told my dog how great she was, and we left and we celebrated. And I thought, OK, this was great, that was good, but the next run I’m going to add one more thing to my list of things I don’t want to lose, and one of that was I was not going to step off the field until we either ran out of time or the judge asked us to leave. So no bailing, we are going to do the whole course the next time. I showed up, and it was Friday of the competition, and I should say about 10,000 people come to watch this competition over the course of … yeah, it’s a big deal. I wasn’t really prepared for that. I showed up at the competition and there was this huge crowd, and there was an emcee and all sorts of stuff, and I was like, Oh my goodness. I was so overwhelmed. So I thought, OK, let’s do some breathing, and then I thought, OK, here’s my issue. I’m out there with the big hats. I need a bigger hat. So I went and bought myself a big hat. I put on my big hat, I walked to the post, I sent my dog, she got her sheep, she brought them to me, we made it around the course, and we got a score of numbers, not letters, because in herding you either get a score or you get a retire or you get a disqualify DQ, so the goal is to get numbers not letters. We got numbers, not letters, and I was just so thrilled with my dog, I was really pleased with my own ability to overcome my own inner challenges, and it was this very wonderful moment. I was thrilled. So that was a huge accomplishment that I’m quite proud of. Melissa Breau: That’s awesome. My second question here is usually my favorite, but what is the best piece of training advice that you’ve ever heard? Helene Lawler: Again, one I had to think long and hard about, and I know other people have said two, so I’m also going to say two, but they’re nothing new. They are “Train the dog in front of you,” and “It’s all behavior.” Those two, I just tell myself that over and over and over and over and over again. It’s been absolutely critical in everything I’ve been accomplishing. It’s “Train the dog in front of me,” every day it’s different, forget the dog that my dog was yesterday, especially forget the dog that my dog was a few years ago, which I tend to still hang on to, and just work with the dog I have in this moment right now. What does she need, what are we doing, where is she at? That has just been so critical for my own ability to improve my training. “It’s all behavior” is so important for staying calm, cool, and collected, and just being analytical and detached and really taking emotions out of the training, which can be a real challenge in herding, in any kind of dog sport, I’m sure, as you and I’m sure all the listeners know. But in herding it’s really easy to lose your emotional cool, so just saying “It’s all behavior” and understanding that at a deep level has been really, really helpful for me. Melissa Breau: Excellent. The last one: Who is somebody else in the dog world that you look up to? Helene Lawler: Lots and lots of people. Again, I’ll keep this focused on herding. I’m going to say Amanda Milliken. She is one of the giants in the herding world. She is local to me, which I’m very lucky about that. She is the person who has put on the Grass Creek Trials that is running right now, and her dedication, passion, and commitment to the sport and her breed, her commitment well beyond her own performance, has just been amazing. She’s just an incredible woman for all that she has accomplished in herding and with Border Collies in general. I’ve really admired that, and I’ve taken inspiration from how hard she works and how hard she’s trained. I bought my first Border Collie from her in 1989, and she was competing back then. She’d already started Grass Creek. That was 29 years ago, and she’d already run it for two years. So she has been in this for the long game, and I just love to see people be successful and know that persistence pays, and so I’ve learned a lot from that. Melissa Breau: Awesome. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. I really appreciate it. Helene Lawler: Thank you so much for having me. It’s been such a pleasure and an honor to be here. Melissa Breau: And thank you to all of our listeners for tuning in! We’ll be back next week with Sarah Stremming, to talk about her household’s latest new addition — a Border Collie puppy named Watson. Don’t miss it. If you haven’t already, subscribe to our podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. CREDITS: Today’s show is brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzi for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty-free by BenSound.com; the track featured here is called “Buddy.” Audio editing provided by Chris Lang and transcription written by CLK Transcription Services. Thanks again for tuning in -- and happy training!

Summary: Sue Ailsby is a retired obedience and conformation judge. She has been "in dogs" for more than 54 years, having owned and trained everything from Chihuahuas to Giant Schnauzers. She has trained for virtually every legitimate dog sport including — and guys, this really is quite the list — sled racing, schutzhund, hunting, tracking, scent hurdle and flyball, carting, packing, agility, water trials and herding, rally, conformation, obedience, and nosework.   Sue is an internationally known speaker on the subject of humane training for dogs and llamas, and has been fundamental in introducing clicker training to Canada. Links mentioned: www.sue-eh.ca Next Episode:  To be released 8/3/2018, featuring Sue Ailsby, talking about Rally.  TRANSCRIPTION: Melissa Breau: This is Melissa Breau and you're listening to the Fenzi Dog Sports Podcast brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy, an online school dedicated to providing high-quality instruction for competitive dog sports using only the most current and progressive training methods. Today we’ll be talking to Sue Ailsby. Sue is a retired obedience and conformation judge. She has been "in dogs" for more than 54 years, having owned and trained everything from Chihuahuas to Giant Schnauzers. She has trained for virtually every legitimate dog sport including — and guys, this really is quite the list — sled racing, schutzhund, hunting, tracking, scent hurdle and flyball, carting, packing, agility, water trials and herding, rally, conformation, obedience, and nosework.   Sue is an internationally known speaker on the subject of humane training for dogs and llamas, and has been fundamental in introducing clicker training to Canada. Welcome to the podcast Sue! Sue Ailsby: Thanks Melissa. It’s great to be here. Melissa Breau: I’m super-excited to talk to you today. To get us started, do you want to tell us a little bit about the dogs you have now and what you’re working on with them? Sue Ailsby: I have Syn — that’s for synchronized, not for bad — who is a Portuguese Water Dog, 7 years old. She’s finished with conformation and Rally and drafting, and she’s now working on nosework and the highest level of water trials. Serra is my yearling Giant Schnauzer who’s probably going to be a puppy until he’s 6 or 7. He’s doing foundation work through the training levels. He’s learning to swim and do nosework, and he’s working really, really hard on remembering not to french-kiss people. Melissa Breau: That would be a good thing with his size to learn not to do! Sue Ailsby: Yeah, it would be nice. Melissa Breau: So I was hoping today to talk a bit about today, since I know your Rally 1 class is back on the schedule. Obviously I read that huge list — you’ve competed in a lot of different dog sports. How did you get started in Rally? Sue Ailsby: Well, when you do everything, you have to try everything that comes along, and once you’ve tried it, then you can decide whether it’s going to be fun for the current team you’ve got or not. And every one of my dogs has really enjoyed Rally. It is fun. Since I had dogs already with obedience titles, it’s an easy transition to get into Rally, so we got into Rally and they enjoyed it and we did it. Melissa Breau: That’s awesome. What is it about Rally that appeals to you that’s led you to go through the whole process of developing a course on it? Sue Ailsby: Well, as I said, it’s fun. And a lot of the behaviors in Rally are really foundation behaviors for all dogs, like sit and down and come and walking on a loose leash and brief stays. A lot of people try it because it looks easy, and then give up because they don’t have a swing finish or the attention they need from the dog. Since those are behaviors that make life with a dog easier anyway, I just want to spread the love. One of the things I really like about Rally is how casual it is. It’s great to qualify, it’s great to get a good score, it’s really great to impress people with a good run, but it’s easy to fail, too. So failing becomes sort of normal, like you’re not in there going, “I lost more than 2 points, so I’m a failure and my dog’s a failure. Out of non-qualifying performances, if out of ten non-qualifying performances, I’ll bet my dog has screwed up twice and I’ve screwed up eight times. After one of my performances, a judge stopped me to address the audience before I left the ring, and she said, “That was truly one of the best 1-2-3 step backwards I have ever seen! I hope you were all watching. It was so good! Unfortunately, that wasn’t the exercise the sign called for, so this is not a passing score.” Melissa Breau: That’s so funny! Sue Ailsby: People come in and say, “But what if I fail?” No big deal. Everybody else has failed. Why shouldn’t you? Melissa Breau: Right. You mentioned in there that it’s friendly and fun, and I think that’s certainly one of the things that most people find about Rally that appeals to them. It’s a little more friendly maybe than some of the traditional obedience venues, for lack of a better phrase, I guess. Sue Ailsby: It can get kind of competitive sometimes. Melissa Breau: A little bit, a little bit. I was hoping you could talk a little bit about some of the similarities and differences between the two sports, if somebody is debating which one they want to compete in, or which one they want to compete in first. Sue Ailsby: OK. You don’t have to decide between Rally and obedience, because practicing for Rally, if you’re aiming for obedience, you can practice for Rally and it’s certainly not wasted practice, and if you’re doing obedience, you’re learning stuff that you need to learn for Rally anyway, so you can start working on one or the other, or both at once, and decide later which you want to do, if you just want to do one of them. Obedience, the difference is in the focus of the sport. Obedience competition is about precision. Rally is about lots of different behaviors in a flow, more like you’d use for going for a walk. As a former rider, I’d say obedience is like dressage: Can you make this movement perfectly? Rally is like western trail class: Can you do this behavior here and then that behavior over there? Can we get through this course together? It’s the togetherness that brings on a good performance, so you’re working on a team, basically. Which you are in obedience, too, but I think it comes a little more naturally in Rally. Melissa Breau: Some people start in Rally and then move into obedience, or like you said, you got your obedience title first and then you went back and did the Rally titles for fun. Kind of interesting how they’re different but similar. Sue Ailsby: Mm-hmm. Melissa Breau: I can’t talk about a sport without getting into foundations. I feel like every interview I do, that’s the word that comes up, over and over and over again. I’d love to hear your take on that for Rally — what skills you consider foundation skills, or what are some of the skills that dogs need before they begin training for Rally? Sue Ailsby: One of the things that I really like about being part of the Fenzi Academy is that none of the instructors do things exactly the same way, and yet, more than any other group of instructors that I’ve ever met, the Fenzi instructors believe in foundations right across the board. You don’t start with fancy stuff, you start with the foundations, and the fancy stuff grows naturally out of it. As a foundation to begin Rally, I’d like the dog to know what the clicker’s for. A general understanding of sit and down and focusing on the handler. A dog who has those skills already is going to progress. Really, for any sport, focus is a foundation. When I don’t have the dog’s attention, I’m not working on anything but focus. If we’re doing a pivot, I’m trying to teach her a pivot, and the dog’s brain is on a kid walking by, we’re not working on pivots. The fact that I wanted to work on a pivot is really irrelevant. We’re working on focus. Until we have focus, there’s no other work happening. Focus is the primary indication of teamwork between the dog and the handler. I’d rather walk into the Rally ring, or any other ring, with a focused dog who knows nothing else than with a dog who knows all about the sport behaviors but isn’t on my team yet. Melissa Breau: That’s something a lot of people overlook. They do train at home, or whatever, and they get a lot of skills on their dog, and then they go out in the real world and they can’t replicate those behaviors because they’re missing that piece of the puzzle. To put aside the dog for a minute, though, I know that you also talk a little bit about handler skills, and you mentioned earlier that goofing up at the Rally ring, there’s a good chance it wasn’t the dog’s fault. What are some of the things that handlers need to teach themselves in order to do the sport? Sue Ailsby: There are sport-specific things and there are training-specific things. I’ll talk about the training-specific things first. Pay attention to the dog. Look at the dog. Think about the dog. Ask the dog. Believe the dog. Respond when she asks you questions. Take her questions seriously. You don’t understand her question? That’s OK. She doesn’t understand you half the time, either. But she’s still in there trying. Let her know that you’re trying too. If she keeps asking you a question and you keep giving her the same old answer, you’re not answering her question, because if you did, she wouldn’t have to keep asking it. It drives me crazy when some dog is sitting there, “I don’t understand you! What are you doing?” and they keep going “Sit, sit, sit.” It drives us all crazy, actually. As to what the person as a handler needs to learn in Rally is the rules, like you do for any sport. But the hardest part is walking into the ring and having to read the signs. The judge is not telling you what to do. You walk up to a sign on the course and the sign will say, “Sit. Down. Sit.” That means you have to get your dog to sit and down and sit back up again. When you’ve done that, you walk on to the next sign, and it can be really hard to remember to take your dog with you, to read the sign, to get the dog to do what he’s supposed to do before he does something he’s not supposed to do. It gets really complicated. For that reason, once a week we have a practice course in the class, based on the behaviors that the dog’s been working on that week. Melissa Breau: I certainly imagine getting in there and trying to read on your feet and stick with things — it can throw you for a bit of a loop sometimes if you forgot what comes next or misread a sign in your haste or because of nerves. Sue Ailsby: And since you’re doing this all on your own, you think about walking on, and suddenly you realize you’ve walked past the previous sign, and then you either skip it and don’t qualify, or you have to back up and hope you can see what it says on the sign or try to remember it. It’s really not as easy as it looks without practice. Melissa Breau: I know in the syllabus for the class you have a comment in there about mirrors, and you recommend students invest in a few cheap mirrors. I wanted to ask how that comes into play or what that’s about.   Sue Ailsby: That’s about looking at your dog. Your eyes are 5 feet off the ground, your dog is 18 inches off the ground, and there’s no point in wondering later why the judge took five marks off for crooked sits when you have no idea whether your dog’s sitting crooked or not, and you can’t see from where you are. If you have a mirror 5 feet away from you, you can actually see what the judges is seeing from fifteen feet away. So you can see crooked sits. If you can see a crooked sit, you can work on crooked sits and maybe not lose those five points. Or lose them. That’s the nice thing about Rally. If you want to say, “You know what? My dog’s having a good time, I’m having a good time, I don’t care about those five points,” then you don’t have to work on them. But at least you know that they’re happening. Melissa Breau: The Rally 1 class is the first in a series. I was curious how you’ve broken down what people need to know into the different classes and what specifically falls into that Rally 1 class, what students should expect to learn the first session. Sue Ailsby: The first class is about foundations — back to foundations. The behaviors that we meet in a novice-level Rally test are really based on basics, foundations, focus, learning how to handle courses, training for the dog and the handler. In the second class we get into advanced competition behaviors, heeling while walking backwards instead of forwards, drop on recall, around and over and through different objects, the two-dozen different ways to change heeling sides and turn around. That’s where it really gets to be fun. Melissa Breau: How do those skills then progress as students go through the series? Sue Ailsby: That’s one of the things I like best about Rally. Every behavior in the advanced levels is based on the foundation behaviors from the novice levels. It was really well set up that way. You and your dog are heeling. You and your dog do a 180-degree turn to the right or to the left. That’s novice. In an advanced level the question is, can you turn left while your dog turns right or vice versa? If you can do that, can you do it twice in a row? As you may have realized, my middle name is “foundations,” so my training is all about getting the novice stuff solid so you don’t have to be desperately trying to get a more advanced behavior later. The advanced stuff, as I said, should flow naturally from what the dog already knows. So we start with an easy behavior, and then we make it more difficult and more difficult as you go up through the levels. Melissa Breau: I believe when I was reading over the description you also said that there’s a lot of crossover between the different venues. Is that right? You cover skills that cross venue, right? Sue Ailsby: Right. It’s not specifically for the different Rally that we have in Canada or in the United States, or people in Europe have taken the class because they wanted to do online Rally. I went through as many different Rally venues as I could find, read the rules, picked out the behaviors, and there are places where in one venue you have to stop before you do this, but that’s a rule change. That’s not really relevant to how the dog is trained. We’re pretty much using behaviors that are across the board, so it should be useful for anybody, no matter where they are. Melissa Breau: Anything else you want to share about the class — either what you’ll cover or who should take it? Sue Ailsby: We’ve had classes where most of the dogs already had a Rally title or two, and we’ve had classes where very few of them had really any training at all. So what we get is what we’ll handle. We’ll go with the flow and hope we can show everybody how much fun they can have in the Rally ring. Melissa Breau: Awesome. I’ve got one last question in here for you, Sue. What’s a lesson you’ve learned or been reminded of recently when it comes to dog training? Sue Ailsby: Oh, I’m always getting reminded of things that I forgot. I don’t want to be boring, but I have to go back to foundations. My Portuguese Water Dog has been on bed rest for three weeks, and yesterday I discovered she has completely forgotten the idea of stay. She’s 7 years old, she has titles in five different venues, and she can’t remember how to stay. My Giant Schnauzer, we’ve been camping for two weeks, he’s been walking with my husband on leash in the forest, and he has completely forgotten that he used to have a beautiful loose-leash walk. I would be absolutely hysterical about both of these problems right now if it wasn’t for the foundations. My Porti has water trials coming up in a month for which I have to travel large distances. The Giant Schnauzer puppy weighs 100 pounds and I just had shoulder surgery. I need those behaviors. The good part is that I’ve put a lot of effort into foundations. I know that I can shoot back to the beginning and I’ll have those behaviors back in less than a week. I don’t have to get all excited about it and “Oh, oh, oh, what am I going to do, what am I going to do?” I’ll have them back in less than a week. So the one thing that I always am reminded of is “Do not forget your foundations.” That’s it. Melissa Breau: I think that’s a good reminder, and it’s nice to hear that I’m not the only one who struggles sometimes occasionally when the dog seem to forget that they have a skill. My German Shepherd’s notorious for that particular bouts of memory loss. Sue Ailsby: Yes. Melissa Breau: Thank you so much for coming back on the podcast Sue. I really appreciate it. Sue Ailsby: Thank you Melissa. Melissa Breau: And thank you to all of our listeners for tuning in! We’ll be back next week, this time with Dr. Jennifer Summerfield to talk about behavior medications, chat about them before she has a webinar on those the following week, so you guys can get a sneak peek. If you haven’t already, subscribe to our podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. CREDITS: Today’s show is brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzi for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty-free by BenSound.com; the track featured here is called “Buddy.” Audio editing provided by Chris Lang and transcription written by CLK Transcription Services. Thanks again for tuning in -- and happy training!

Summary: Dr. Amy Cook has been training dogs for nearly 25 years and has been specializing in the rehabilitation of shy and fearful dogs for over 15 years. She's the creator of The Play Way, her process for helping dogs learn to cope with the world around them. She's also a certified dog behavior consultant, a long-standing professional member of the Association of Professional Dog Trainers, and has attended all four Chicken Camps in Hot Springs, Arkansas, taught by Bob Bailey. Amy returned to school in 2006 to get her PhD in psychology from UC Berkeley. Her research there focused on the dog/human relationship and its effect on problem-solving strategies dogs employ. Links www.playwaydogs.com Next Episode:  To be released 5/18/2018, featuring Amy Johnson, taking us behind the scenes of a major dog sports competition from a photographer's perspective.  TRANSCRIPTION: Melissa Breau: This is Melissa Breau and you're listening to the Fenzi Dog Sports Podcast brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy, an online school dedicated to providing high-quality instruction for competitive dog sports using only the most current and progressive training methods. Today we'll be talking to Dr. Amy Cook. Amy has been training dogs for nearly 25 years and has been specializing in the rehabilitation of shy and fearful dogs for over 15 years. She's the creator of The Play Way, her process for helping dogs learn to cope with the world around them. She's also a certified dog behavior consultant, a long-standing professional member of the Association of Professional Dog Trainers, and has attended all four Chicken Camps in Hot Springs, Arkansas, taught by Bob Bailey. Amy returned to school in 2006 to get her PhD in psychology from UC Berkeley. Her research there focused on the dog/human relationship and its effect on problem-solving strategies dogs employ. She also recently started a blog at playwaydogs.com, and everyone should definitely go check it out. Hey, Amy, welcome to the podcast. Amy Cook:  Hi Melissa. So glad to be here. Favorite, favorite thing ever. Glad to be back. Melissa Breau: I'm excited to have you, and today I wanted to talk to you about thresholds. Amy Cook: Thresholds [makes “doom music” sounds] … Melissa Breau: Threshold is definitely a word that gets thrown around a lot when it comes to reactivity. Do you mind sharing a little bit about what it typically means? Amy Cook: It's great that we open with that, because of course you want to open with a definition, it makes sense, except that that very thing is a huge can of worms. It takes a lot of time to unpack it all fully, and I'll be doing a webinar on this in June. I think it's just after camp, I think it's June 7 or so, where I'm really going to go into depth about all the stuff you need to know about it. But to get you thinking about it right now, thresholds is one of those things where we say it and we know what we mean by it, but when other people say it, either about our dogs or about their dogs while we're teaching them, we don't know exactly what they mean by it, and we don't have any real assurance that we both mean the same thing, even in the same conversation about thresholds, because if you really think about what thresholds are, it just means that it's a border between two different things, even; the two different states, if you will. So there's a threshold between the way I feel now and the way I'm going to feel next, whatever that feeling is that is coming, and not all thresholds are particularly of interest when we're talking about rehabilitation or dog training. There's only really a few that we care about. I say sometimes in my seminars, “Do you care about the panic threshold for your dog?” And I see some people saying yes, because of course we want to care about panic, but that's not what it says. Do you care about the panic threshold? The answer should be no, because there's plenty of other thresholds that you should have cared about well before we got anywhere near panic. So threshold is that state between one thing and another, and it's no more than that. When someone says, “Hey, your dog's over threshold,” the only thing I think is, Over what threshold? What exactly are you talking about? What state are they in now that they weren't in a bit ago that you want them not to be in or want to help them get out of? Until we have common language — and I'm not even saying that we all, as a training community, need to have one language, because this isn't one of those scenarios. This scenario is the word makes a lot of sense, but what we haven't defined is what states that we're talking about. So over threshold in what way? Can or can't do what kind of thing? It's worth a lot of thought, because if I just say, “Hey, my dog's over threshold now,” if I can be honest with you, I think it's becoming a shorthand for “My dog can't do this right now. I'm just going to call that ‘over threshold.' Oh look, he won't eat. He's over threshold. He's having trouble with latency here. He's going slow. He must be over threshold.” I think it's losing a little bit of meaning because you're not thinking about exactly what threshold you're talking about. It matters, because where you want to put your therapy is dependent on how the dog feels and how stressed he is, so you do really have to know where your thresholds are. So it's something people need to pay more attention to than I think that they are. Melissa Breau: How do you even begin to start to pin down, regardless of which threshold necessarily, how do pin down exactly where a specific dog's threshold may be between any two states? Amy Cook: It sort of depends on what your goal is in the given moment. Is my goal right now just to get past this dog with my dog and nothing happens? I have a different definition, a different threshold in mind for a behavior I don't want, that I'm trying to prevent and keep him under the line of expressing. That's not the same thing as if I want to do some therapy with him. For me, that would be play therapy, and if I want to do play therapy with him, that line of where I say threshold is is going to be much, much, much lower, because the line for me would be between he can play and he can't play. But if we're just talking about getting past a dog, the line might be the line between “he can stay on my food and look at me and keep walking and keep himself together,” and “he can't do that.” So first you have to think … you asked me how can we figure out what the threshold is. Tell me what threshold you want to figure out in the first place. From there we can define what would it be to be under it and what would it be to be over it. Why do you care about this particular threshold? “Because I want to get past the dog and I don't want barking.” OK, so any kind of barking would be over that particular threshold, and anything under where we're managing correctly — or managing successfully, I should say — is keeping him under. But I wouldn't call that under threshold for, say, learning a brand new trick, because he's probably way too busy inside, cognitively and emotionally, to learn something new. So if it's like, I want to keep him under threshold, I'd say, OK, what for, what is your goal? “I want to do shaping with him, and sometimes he gets …” — whatever his problem is. And I don't say I want him under a shaping threshold. I'm not telling the world to start adding new terms for everything. It's not like that. But if you want him clearheaded and able to be in a shaping session, then that's what you're trying to be under. How can you figure out what the threshold is? Well, that's a moving target. You need to tell me what you need to accomplish, and from there we can simply make sort of tests for it. What I do is, I have a really low threshold for The Play Way and I have tests for that. But since everyone's definition or goals might be a little different, I would encourage people to just give it even five minutes of thought of, What are the states I'm trying to define here and get below or get into, and how would I know if I were there? It's a question you almost have to answer for yourself. I have answers for the kind of work that I do, but not everybody's doing that. Thresholds is all over dog training, and so I can't just tell you that threshold is the one I use only and not the ones you use. But I will say if you do think about this and use them, then you should put more thought into definitions and identification of them. Melissa Breau: You talked a little bit in there about how you use them differently in The Play Way, and I did want to get into that a little more. Can you explain a little more how you use them and what you mean by that? Amy Cook: For the Play Way, what that is, if you're not too familiar with my work, it's using social play, so that would be play without the help of toys, like you're playing tug or playing fetch, and without the help of food, although certain exceptions will apply. So social play with your dog to help them relax, to help them feel a lot better about where they are, and to help you read how they're feeling so you can determine whether you are under threshold or not. That would be under my threshold, under the threshold of interest to me, in this case. Really, the whole reason why play is so important, there are two reasons. One is of course it's really fun, it's relaxing, and it's relationship-building. But the other real function of it is directly to help me determine a threshold. The threshold I want is one between the two states of interest for me are the dog is perfectly fine, absolutely nothing wrong as best anybody could tell, just like I can tell in you, you feel perfectly fine, you're not stressed, you're not tired, you're just being you, just being Melissa, and then whatever you are one step away from that. That's not super-specific, but it can't be. It's when the dog or you feels perfect, everything's fine, totally normal, nothing wrong, and then the first step away from that state is happening, and if you keep going on that path, if you keep taking more steps on that line, you're going right to eventually panic, or you're going right to stress, you're going right to upset, you're going right to can't handle, you're going right to trembling or yelling and screaming. A lot of different things can happen along that number line. I call it a one-step threshold as a shorthand for myself so that I can see it as everything was fine, nothing was wrong, and now we've just taken our first step away from that perfect state. And I'd like to know that that's happened for you. If I'm trying to help you stay in that really great state, I'd love to know that you have just left it. And because I have language with you and all other people, I can say, “Hey, let me know when you're starting to leave perfect and you no longer feel that way anymore.” But of course it's very difficult to ask a dog, and what I use play for, or really, more accurately, the disappearance of play. When it disappears for me, I can infer that something has happened. You play in your perfect state, and we of course train that a bunch, and we rehearse it a whole bunch, and then you can't. Something impeded, something got in the way, something interfered with our play. Are you starting on your stress path? Are you starting to leave this great state we're in? When play leaves, and they're just starting to have questions about whether they're OK, that's when I can best apply my rehabilitation techniques, my interventions for them. That's the best place because they haven't gone very far away yet, and I can get them back to feeling OK. Threshold is super-important to me for that reason. It's super-important to everyone for that reason. We're trying to get therapy into a dog who can benefit from the therapy. We don't do that when they're over threshold, but we have a moving target for where threshold is, so for me, I want it really codified. I call anything where the dog can't play like he normally plays at home, and behave like he normally behaves at home, socially with you as over threshold. To me, it's over threshold for therapy. I wouldn't apply therapy there. I might switch to management, which is going to be a different topic that we can talk about, but if you want to apply some kind of therapy to your dog to help them feel better, you want something that indicates that they're crossing the very threshold you care about, and for me, that's play. For me, so much is over threshold. So much more is over threshold for me than your average trainer. But I don't mean to say that therefore everything over threshold is bad. It's just over my therapeutic threshold. I wouldn't do therapy now. We'll do something else. But you can see how it hangs together. You want to know what you're dealing with so you can know what to put at it. I'm not going to throw therapy at a dog who's four steps away from perfect but still many steps underneath flipping out. I still have many things I can do there, which is what management is. Melissa Breau: Most dogs, to some degree, aren't quite as relaxed as maybe would be ideal just in everyday life. Amy Cook: Sure. Are you? Melissa Breau: Exactly. Amy Cook: I'm not. For the record, I'm tightly wound, very tightly wound! Melissa Breau: I just want to ask you, you mentioned management, and I do want to ask, on the flip side of all this, we have this ideal state that you've talked about. But what happens when a trainer inevitably … everybody makes mistakes, and the trainer makes the mistake, they misjudge something, they think their dog can handle something their dog definitely can't, and the dog reacts, whether it's just a couple of steps further away from that ideal state, or whether it's dramatic and lunging and barking and crazy. What do you do? Amy Cook: I don't think there's anybody within the sound of our voices tonight that hasn't done this, and that includes me. I'll just raise my hand. I assume you're going to raise your hand. We've all had a dog that we don't want to have react, react. Or conversely — this isn't really conversely — it doesn't have to be that they even react. It can be that they have been put in a situation that is beyond their skill set right now, and it might be that they tremble, or it might be that they just are now going into sniffing and don't want to do this and leave, and that's a form of being over threshold. You've made a mistake in how much your dog can handle or wants to do, and you're not going to get through a day or week — that may sound like a miscalculation — on the feelings of others who can't talk to you. If anyone out there is like, “Yes, that inevitable mistake,” it's inevitable. You will make it. Because of that, just know that you will, assume you will, try not to in a moment, but don't try to be a person who doesn't do that. You're just going to be your best all the time and accept when you're not. When that happens, though, you need to stay, as best you can, clearheaded about what your next options are, where your next acts need to be. Let's say this is reactivity and your dog has now blown, because it's a very easy example to use. Your dog has just blown up at somebody who showed up where you were training. I have a video of that in my class in fact, of me recording a video for class and someone just shows up and I had to respond. If anyone wants to see me do that, go in my classes in the videos, in the video section. You have to … or I recommend that you immediately drive the bus or pick up the reins — whether you like horses or cars better, pick your metaphor — pick up your reins and drive, pick up your wheel and steer your horse. You have to take over the situation, make immediate decisions, and those immediate decisions should involve getting distance and getting your dog on something else right then and there. You stop your training, you don't negotiate, you don't see if you can get your dog back on you while you're sitting right where you were, or tell the person that showed up “Hey, can you give me some room?” That's not the time to think about restoring what you had a second ago. It's your time to get up and march. I usually tell people “March,” and they're like, “I don't know how to march.” No, no. I mean walk fast. Leave. Get out of Dodge. Go. If you've made a big mistake, your dog went [barking sound], or you didn't notice, you didn't have to make a mistake, you could have been completely unaware or thought, Maybe that's a mistake, I don't know, and something showed up and your dog barked, and too many of us spend too much time frozen right then. You go, “Oh, oh, God, oh, sorry, sorry,” to whoever it was that your dog just now barked at. Or you're holding, “Dog, dog, cookie, cookie, dog, here,” trying to fix it in some fashion, and I don't recommend anyone do that. If you were sitting — I was imagining while you were talking, I was imagining sitting because most of my therapy for dogs is done sitting, so I was going to say, you stand up and you get out. You start walking. You take control. If you can't get out, you immediately get your dog's attention by hook or by crook. Interrupt that behavior. Get them on something else right away. The thing is, that can be difficult. I don't minimize that at all. First of all, you're frozen. Second of all, your dog hasn't seen you do this very much and doesn't have a ton of skills around that. That's why I have a class on this, because I firmly believe that people need to rehearse everything they're going to do in the clinch. If you need to practice getting up and marching out of the way really, really quickly, then you need to practice that when nothing's going on, so that you get fluent in it and so that your dog sees this picture many, many times before you ever need it. That's the one thing we don't do with management is we don't do that. But aside from the practicing issue, if you flip into your mind that first I was being dog empowered, and we were training a little bit, and you were figuring out my shaping puzzle, or I was doing some play practice with you and I'm listening to you and you tell me what you're feeling, dog, and then something happened and your dog goes [gasps] “I can't,” you go, “That's it, let's go. You get up and you just take over. So much of what we're trying to do here at Fenzi and so many of the classes are about giving the dogs a lot of control and a lot of ability to drive a session and to be really active partners, and this is the one time when you go, “All right. We're going. We're not negotiating this. We're getting out of here.” I think people are a little reticent to do it because they're trying to stay in the dog empowerment place or just aren't sure what to do, so I recommend you start driving. You pick up your reins and you drive your car, to mix my metaphors continuously. Melissa Breau: Pick up your reins and drive your car. There you go. Amy Cook: Pick up your reins and drive that car. Melissa Breau: For dogs with reactivity, it's not just about what happens when something goes wrong in the moment or when you've made a mistake. There are some things you just have to deal with. The world can be a really scary place and a really rough place, and there are just normal, everyday things that have to happen, even though they're scary and unpleasant. You have to go outside to poop. We're not going to do that in the house. That's not a negotiable thing. So there are some things that still need to happen in everyday life. How do you handle those things? What do you do? Amy Cook: I think that should be one of those infographics: The world might be a scary place, but you still have to go outside to poop. You still have to do it. I remember being a baby trainer and being really frustrated with the answer of “Don't put your dog over threshold.” I had a dog who was over threshold even by any definition, anyone's definition, outside of a home. Outside of a house, outside of four walls, she was losing her mind, and the answer was you're supposed to keep her under threshold while you're helping her classical condition to whatever, doors and things. And I'd say, “But she has to go outside. I can't keep her under threshold.” I didn't get much of a satisfying answer. It was like, “Well, try not to.” I was like, “That's not helping.” I get it. The world is a rough place, and going about normal, everyday things might be you running a gauntlet, might be you going from challenge to challenge to challenge, and if you're working with me at all, I'm saying, “Hey, let's do a lot of play. Let's keep your dog under threshold as much as possible.” I'm certainly saying those things. So going hand-in-hand with helping your dog be better in any way, whether it's through classical conditioning or whatever it is you're doing, you're training, you need to have an alternate way that you behave, an alternate plan for times that are not those times. Times when we have to go outside and go potty are not times when we're going to be working on how you feel about going outside and going potty. We're going to flip into our management mode. We're going to get our management boots on and we're going to behave as we do in management mode. That means I may have to override you. I will do it certainly as kindly as I possibly can, but we're not going to go that direction. We're going to go this direction, because I know this direction is better, even if you want to go that way. Or you'd like to go up and see that gentleman because you're on the fence about whether you're scared, and I know that when you get there you're going to flip out, so we're not going to. We're going this way. So the first thing you've got to think about is you're in control and you're possibly overriding, although very kindly, your dog. Secondly, your dog needs to know they're part of the management system. The management system might be all the little tricks that you'll do to get your dog past a thing. A certain example might be a magnet walk, a cookie magnet. If I teach you — and you'd think dogs would know this really well, but you'd be surprised how many dogs don't know how to do this because we don't practice it — you take a bunch of cookies, a bunch of them, and you put it right on their nose. Don't just let them sniff it and wish they had it in their mouths, but you're actually feeding in a specific way out of your hands the whole time you're walking. I challenge all of you listening: Can you take ten steps with your dog actively eating the entire time out of a hand, out of your hand — not any hand, your hand — that's right on their nose and eating all the way through. We're going to say these are not 10-inch Chihuahuas, but dogs you can reasonably reach with your hand, because they're the ones you can pick up and we can talk about that later. Can you walk ten whole steps with your dog eating the entire time? No pauses, no time do you take your hand away and put it back, no time for reloading, no time where he's sniffing it and wishing he had it and licking it, but is actually eating the whole way. I think most people can't … maybe not can't do it, most people can get it done if you practice it a bit, but that's the whole point of that. You've got to practice, because your dog is like, “What's going on here?” and you're like, “I don't know. My hands are dropping treats everywhere,” and you're not even the good dog-and-pony show, you're the disastrous dog-and-pony show and you're the pony. That requires that the dog understands that that's what's going to happen, that the magnet should not break. And you're responsible for not letting that magnet break by making that super-interesting and “Let's go, and here's the cookies, eat them, eat them, let's go, come on, eat, eat, eat, go, go, go,” as you're walking past nothing because you're just practicing. If you're just trying to introduce that to your dog in the moment because you needed it right then and there, but they've never seen it before, it's not going to go so well. They need to see their parts. But to the larger thing that you asked, which I'm never going to stay on one question because you pressed the button on my chest and I take off, an everyday walk that is scary will need specific and well-rehearsed management techniques to get through. So if you're going to pass a little too close to something, you flip into magnet walking. If you're going to see something else pass by you and you only have to pause for a couple of seconds, you might do some Find Its, but you're going to have a plan. You're going to go outside and go … in fact, sometimes, when I'm walking my dog, I might say, hey, you know, if that happened right now, like I'm passing a house, if that door just opened and a dog came running out, what would I do right now, right this minute? There's traffic in the street right now, so I'm not going to go walk in the street. I mentally rehearse that, and I try to see if I needed to manage it, if my dog were over-fazed right this minute, what would be my choice? That mental rehearsal is very helpful to getting the reality to be like that. So management is for when you cannot train and you have to get through, and training is for when you can be reasonably under threshold, however it is we're going to define threshold for that particular task, and you don't need to drive the bus. When you can give your dog the reins and the wheel of the horse car, then you're not managing. When you pick up the reins and take the wheel of the horse car, you are now managing, to be tortured with this ridiculous example. Melissa Breau: That was exactly my next question for you. I wanted it to be specifically on what the difference is between treating reactivity and learning management, because I think sometimes it's really easy, I know you draw a really clear distinction between the two, and I think for a lot of people it's a muddy line there. They're like, “But we're working on treating reactivity,” and the situation just changed and now you just need to manage it and get out of there. And sometimes it's hard to understand that those are two sides of the same coin, maybe, where yes, you need to do both. Amy Cook: They are two sides, and I think of them as flipping back and forth a lot. In the way I learned dog training, we talked about flipping from operant conditioning to classical conditioning too. I'm not saying people don't do it now, I'm sure they must, but in the sense of “I'm training you to do a thing. Oh, a scary thing happened. I'm just giving you cookies.” Give and give and give and give, it's a scary thing, and I'm changing right into classical conditioning mode, don't care what you're doing, here's cookies. We flip back and forth on what we can reasonably let a dog do without too much direction and when we have to take over, and I see this as a very similar flip but between two different states, because I do my therapy different now. So in this case it would be training reactivity for me means I let you have your head — back to the horses — you can make some decisions. I want you to tell me what you need to look at. I want you to tell me how you're feeling by the quality of your play. We're having a nice session here where you're looking at something in the distance and gathering some information about it, and then you can dismiss it a bit and come back to me and we play some, and we're doing all this and I'm letting you tell me how you feel. I'm not driving it and telling you to sit and telling you to high-five and giving you things to do. It's very dog-driven. And then, when I see that something has changed, either you've changed or I really see that literally a thing in the environment is now here, I utterly change and flip only into management tasks and I make sure that they happen. I create them all. In play, and even in other kinds of training, if you're not doing specifically rehabilitation, you're doing some heel practicing. The dog is doing the behavior and you're rewarding it. Once management has to be there, I don't ask the dog to do anything. I create it all as best I can. That's what the magnet walk is. It's not a heel, which the dog does and looks up at you and you reinforce. however often you're reinforcing it. It's instead I put a magnet on your nose and I'm drawing you forward and we're walking that direction. And the dog is like, ‘I don't know. I'm just following my nose. I'm not doing anything,” if you think about it that way. I'm taking as much control and I'm doing the behaviors. I'm making sure the behaviors happen. I'm insisting as kindly as possible so that the dog stays contained and stays focused on me and the world can pass by. If the world isn't going to pass by, I'm going to run out of there. And you know what? Running has to be practiced too. If you're going to run away from stuff, you better run the right way. You don't want to run in panic. You don't want your dog to go, “Why are we running? Oh my god!” It's a practiced skill, like any other. You practice running away, yay, from stuff so that it's not surprising for the dog and they don't have to go, “Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, what?” There should be no “what.” There's only a lot of “Oh, we're doing this? All right. I can do that.” So the distinction I make between training reactivity or learning management is that in one you are responsible for everything that happens and in the other one you're lightening control. You're letting the dog tell you a lot more stuff. You're responding to the dog instead. In management, the dog's responding to you and you go. Hopefully that's a clarity moment. Melissa Breau: Yeah, yeah, and as you were talking about it earlier I was thinking in one situation it seems like you really want the dog to think, and in the other situation you want to remove any need for the dog to think. Amy Cook: That's a good way to put it. I want you thinking and driving and telling me on your own. You want to look at something, look at something. I don't need to interrupt you. I want you to have your process — and more of that in the Bogeyman class — but a dog showed up, “Oh no, come here, you just need to think about me, and I'm going to take care of all of this.” That's something that doesn't come naturally to a lot of people. We sit there and “Oh God,” and we deliberate, “Should I give a cookie? He barked. I'm so nervous that it's reinforcing the bark, and I can't give the cookie.” In that time, while you're deliberating what you should do, that dog made it all the way to you, or that person got on his phone and started arguing. Everything got worse. You should have left before you started thinking about what you should do for your dog. Leave and then decide. Magnet-walk and go. Take it over. Melissa Breau: One of the biggest takeaways for me when I took the management class, which I loved, was the importance of practicing the skills. You talked about this a little bit: practice and practice and practice until they become a habit, not just for the person but for the dog, something that the dog and you can really fall back on when you need it, because it's so embedded and it's so patterned the fact that it has basically becomes... you don't have to think about this. It's so fluent for both of you. Amy Cook: It's dancing. We're all better if we have instructions. We're all better if we know what we're going to do. We are all better if things are patterned. All of us. Then especially, and if you want a dog to come magnet-walking with you, that dog's got to have seen it dozens and dozens of times, or they're going to go, “Yeah, magnet walk, but I've got stuff to yell at.” They don't have a groove to get into that's been super-practiced, and you know what, you don't either. The class, and the way I teach it to people, we're not using it maybe ever in the class, maybe. But certainly not until the last week, because I want fluency beyond fluency. I'll start throwing in little … here's one thing you can do, anybody listening. If you have a few management skills already, like a find it and a two up, putting two feet on something, maybe some quick sits, something that keeps their attention while all things around are breaking loose. What I want you to challenge yourself to do is you're out on your walk today on a regular suburban block, and you see up ahead a fire hydrant, and you see farther ahead than that the tree that's there, and I want you to manage, flip right into management the second you come to that fire hydrant, and manage the whole way all the way to the tree. Nothing has happened except that you decided you got to the fire hydrant and then you made it all the way to the tree. The dog might at first go, “What? Why are you managing me?” And if that's true and he's looking around, then he's not that practiced at management. He's expecting something to go wrong, he's expecting a big problem, and that's the last thing you want. You want to teach your dog that management is this crazy game I sometimes play for ten seconds for no reason at all. Every once in a while there's also a dog there, but that's not why I did it. I did it because I'm crazy and I just like to do fun things. Get your dog to believe that, and if you can flip in and flip out when nothing around you has happened, and do that any old time … in fact, some people have their partners say a code word, and then they have to manage right then and there and get out of Dodge right now and for no reason. It lets your dog see a little bit of panic in you, it lets your dog see a little bit of “Oh God, oh God, oh God” in you, and you're just freestyling, you're ad-libbing, you're able to take any challenge that comes up. I have people practicing that in the last two weeks of class, where they have to freestyle it, I call it. You've got to go out there and start responding to the tree and the bumper of the car and the fire hydrant, and make me believe that a dog showed up and you got out of Dodge, so that your dog has all of that before he ever needs to have it used. You'd be surprised, I'm often surprised, at how much dogs are a creature of habit. You'd think something like this, I hear people say, “My dog won't eat when we're outside.” They're a creature of habit. You don't start training it outside. You train it inside. You train it in careful places, and dogs really do go with the program. They really do. It's super-helpful, and even if it isn't perfectly helpful at every turn, 80 percent helpful is better than what you had before you started having a management system, so really anything is better than nothing. Melissa Breau: Right. You mentioned a couple of examples of some of the games you include in the management class. You mentioned two paws up, I think, and quick sits. Do you mind sharing some of those examples and describing them a little bit? Amy Cook: I like to separate the skills into the categories of “We are leaving in some fun way. I'm getting you out of this place.” It might be that I'm just pulling up a driveway. It doesn't necessarily mean we're leaving far, but I'm taking you and we're going to a new location. That's one set of skills. The other set of skills is “Well, I'm stuck here.” Oops, my exit is blocked. Or oops, that person showed up, but I see that they're actually just leaving and will get out of here faster than I would ever be able to get out of here, so I might as well stay here for a second and let the trigger leave. Those are super-separate. Getting out of Dodge, leaving quickly, involves connecting a magnet and then deciding which side your dog is going to be on, because perhaps it's better if they were on your left and now they need to be on your right, so you need to execute that really smoothly without breaking your magnet. Perhaps you need to make a U-turn. Can you do it without breaking your magnet? Most people don't. They make a U-turn and then connect the magnet again after they've made the turn. So we fix all those mechanics, how always you can leave a scene, all the directions you could go, all the sides your dog could be on, front crosses and all that stuff. You get one of those a week, and then you get a skill in the “Oops, you're stuck” series. I should call it that. I should just rename it that in the class: “Oops, you're stuck.” This is oops you're stuck, number one. And the next one is find it. I like those to be on cue, although it's really OK if the cue is they saw you drop the food, because that's going to work in a pinch, it's really fine. But I'd like to be able to say, “Dog, find it,” and then they go down and search immediately, even though you haven't put food down there yet while you go and get the food because you weren't ready because it wasn't in your hand because something surprised you. And so you go, “Oh god, find it!” and they immediately start going, “What? Really?” and they're looking down and they don't see anything and in that moment you're like, “Here it is,” and you spill it all over the ground and now they have something to find. That keeps their nose down and on their food. And you should get super-involved: “You missed this one, look at this here,” pat, pat, pat, pat, touch, touch, touch, nudge, nudge. “Look at these, you missed these here, oh my goodness.” Keep them super-engaged in that. What it does is first of all control where their head is, which you totally need, and then if it was a dog that was passing by, or even a person, but if it was a dog that was passing by, that dog is not being enticed by whatever your dog was doing, making it then harder for your dog to resist. Also you look super-busy. If someone was passing by and you're afraid of what your dog was going to do, or really wanted to protect your dog from that greeting, all of a sudden they're in a find it, you're doing training, you're busy, the dog isn't soliciting or looking like they're soliciting attention, which people misinterpret all the time, and is busy. So that's a great one to train. You might think there's no training in that one, but there is, because they want to break from that and you need to really get involved and you need to teach them that on verbal. I like them also to perch on things, so a two up and a four up. Two up is just front paws up, and four up they jumped onto it. I see them really differently from each other. The two up, I want you both facing the same way. It's like we're standing at a fence and both peering over it. We're both facing that way, so if something passed behind us, oh no, we didn't notice because I've got a magnet right in front of your face and “Look at these cookies, honey,” and “Look at that view, sweetheart.” It's not really a view, just imagine it, and then that person or whatever it is, the trigger, can be leaving while you're stuck there. This is your stuck series of skills. The four up I see the other way. I want the dog all four up, but you're going to face me. Tuck your face in close to my chest so I have your head here and you're up at my chest height, say a half-wall or a bench or something like that, and I've got control of your face. I can now look at the trigger passing behind your butt, but you're not, because I'm like, “Look what I've got, honey, look at this,” and if she breaks the magnet to look behind her, you're like, reconnect: “Look right here, cookie, cookie, cookie.” Each scenario might require you to … you want to look at the trigger to make sure that it's going away, so you put them in a four up, or you might neither of you need to look, because if you're looking, you're dog's going to look, and every dog's a little different, so you want to know how that goes. I like those kinds of stationary skills. There's a lot of others, like leave its, which a lot of people have already, but if we practice them in this situation, it helps them resist the urge to want to go look at whatever it is that was scaring them. And we do a thing called a classical recall, so it's not actually about the closing of the distance. I'll let that one remain in the class because it's actually a really long explanation when we do it. It's a special kind of recall. And a bunch of other things. I like dogs to wait at doors, just as impulse control, just don't dart out in front of me for stuff. Stay really connected to me when we're walking. It's not really a loose leash walking class, but I think it ends up being that a little bit too because there's so much magnetization when we're walking. The class also gets a little customization. If your dog in particular needs this one kind of skill, there's room. I built in room in the curriculum for a custom-built trick or a custom-built skill that you can use when you're stuck, your stuck series. So the class is customizable to your situation. Melissa Breau: That's awesome. I will say the find it game has worked, I told you this privately a bunch, but it worked wonders for me with my Shepherd, just having that game as a patterned game where she knows what her job is in such a concrete and understandable way and it's just to find the cookies. Something can pass us by, it can even pass by in the same direction that she's looking as she finds her cookies on the ground, and she knows her job, so she can focus. Amy Cook: I think some of them are self-medicating. It's like, “I wanted not to have to do that anyway, this yelling at dogs thing. I just did. Look, I can do a thing. I can just concentrate on this thing I'm doing.” But if they can't really do that, then you're pointing out every one of them until they're able to concentrate. What I like about the find it is that it can go on as long as you want, because I have an endless stream of pocket cookies. Melissa Breau: Yes. Amy Cook: I'm replete with cookies, so if I want find its to go on for a full minute, it's like, “Look, you missed this one here, and there's a whole trail of them here. Look at what we've got in the grass. Look at all these cookies.” Dogs love to forage, so it's playing to their strengths, and you can get their attention, walk run another fifteen steps to get a little further from something that changed again, and do another find it. You can do find its the whole way while you're walking. It's very customizable. Find its are the unsung hero, I think, of management, because people think, Oh, I put it them the floor but the dog didn't really care, so this doesn't work for me, and it's actually not a simple matter of using it when you've never practiced. Practice is the game changer. Melissa Breau: Right. I want to round things out by asking you if there's anything else that you've got in the works that you care to share — new classes, other goodies people should keep an eye out for, what you're working on. Amy Cook: Goodies. What I'm working on. Well, let's see. Coming up, I mentioned I've got the webinar. I'm going to talk about thresholds solely in that webinar because there's more to say about it for sure than I was able to say here. And then starting in June, I've got two classes. Starting in June, I've got this management class. I alternate it with The Bogeyman and The Play Way class because people need access, I think, to the whole picture of it, so I just try to make sure one runs into the other runs into the other. So next up is management, so if anyone is interested, this is the time to sign up. Concurrently with that, I'm going to run a sound class, which is for dogs who are sound sensitive and who need some classical conditioning essentially, but I use a lot of play and a lot of celebration and a lot less of the dry “I'll give you cookies after the sound happened.” True to form, I use a ton of play in it, but it's not just personal play, so if you have trouble with personal or social play, that's too weak for this class. We do crazy, raucous, amazing play with all the toys of the world that have a sound. That comes up only once or twice a year at most, so if that's your issue, you'll want to pick that up now. In the future, what I'm toying with now, I want to write, I'm in the process of writing a new class about raising puppies or socializing your new dog, if you just got a new dog, in The Play Way style. All this stuff I'm using The Play Way for is usually responding to problems dogs already have, but it would be really great if we could just prevent them in the first place, at least as best we can, and so I'm writing a class that's aimed at “You just got your puppy, or you just got your new dog, you don't know too much about him, and you're in the honeymoon period. What can you do to start off on the right foot?” Really, for me, that means rethinking socialization. Socialization, at least to my mind, is not about being social. It's actually about being civilized and learning to ignore a lot of things, but not through forced connections. So I'm going to write a class for people who want to raise their dog in that dog-empowered way and get started on that right foot. It's in the works, but I take quite a long time to get all the pieces together, so don't expect it soon. Maybe fall, maybe into the next year, I'm not sure. But it's going to be a companion class to The Play Way for people who don't already have a reactivity problem but don't want to have one, they can get into that way. Melissa Breau: That sounds fantastic. I am super-excited about the new class. I'm looking forward to it. And thank you for coming back on. It was fun to chat again, Amy. It always is. Amy Cook: Always a pleasure. You can have me on weekly. I'm available weekly and also daily, if you need more podcast for this. Melissa Breau: If only that were actually true. Amy Cook: If people would interview me every evening, I would be happy. Melissa Breau: In truth, it's a little after midnight here, so … Amy Cook: OK, all right, we'll be done. But it was really great to be here. I'm really happy you asked me back, and it's always a pleasure to talk with you. Melissa Breau: It's always a fun chat. It absolutely is. And I'm glad you could come on. And I'm glad all of our wonderful listeners could tune in to listen to it. We will be back again next week, this time with our other Amy from FDSA — Amy Johnson. We'll be chatting about what it's like behind the scenes to photograph a major competition event, so we'll be talking to her about the recent … I think it was agility nationals she just shot, what that's like, what's involved in that, and all of that good stuff, so it should be fun. If you haven't already, subscribe to our podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. And if you don't know how to do that, we have directions on our website. If you go to the site, we have buttons right at the top that tell you how you can subscribe if you're on iPhone and how you can subscribe if you are not on an iPhone, if you are using an Android phone. So I hope you'll go and do that. CREDITS: Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzi for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty-free by BenSound.com; the track featured here is called “Buddy.” Audio editing provided by Chris Lang.

Summary: Eileen Anderson is a writer and dog trainer. She is perhaps best known for her blog, Eileenanddogs, which has been featured on Freshly Pressed by Wordpress.com and won the award “The Academy Applauds” in 2014 from The Academy of Dog Trainers. Her articles and training videos have been incorporated into curricula worldwide and translated into several languages. Eileen also runs a website for canine cognitive dysfunction, which she started in 2013. That site is www.dogdementia.com, which has become a major resource for pet owners whose dogs have dementia. Then, in 2015, Eileen published Remember Me? Loving and Caring for a Dog With Canine Cognitive Dysfunction. She holds bachelor's and master's degrees in music performance and a master's degree in engineering science. Links www.dogdementia.com www.Eileenanddogs.com Next Episode:  To be released 4/27/2018, featuring Kathy Sdao, author of Plenty in Life is Free: Reflections on Dogs, Training, and Finding Grace, to talk about crossing over, how training dogs and marine mammals compare, and the future of dog training. TRANSCRIPTION: Melissa Breau: This is Melissa Breau and you're listening to the Fenzi Dog Sports Podcast brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy, an online school dedicated to providing high-quality instruction for competitive dog sports using only the most current and progressive training methods. Today we'll be talking to Eileen Anderson. Eileen is a writer and dog trainer. She is perhaps best known for her blog, Eileenanddogs, which has been featured on Freshly Pressed by Wordpress.com and won the award “The Academy Applauds” in 2014 from The Academy of Dog Trainers. Her articles and training videos have been incorporated into curricula worldwide and translated into several languages. Eileen also runs a website for canine cognitive dysfunction, which she started in 2013. That site is www.dogdementia.com, which has become a major resource for pet owners whose dogs have dementia. Then, in 2015, Eileen published Remember Me? Loving and Caring for a Dog With Canine Cognitive Dysfunction. She holds bachelor's and master's degrees in music performance and a master's degree in engineering science. Hi Eileen, welcome to the podcast! Eileen Anderson: Hi Melissa, thank you so much for having me. I am stoked about this. Melissa Breau: I am too. To start us out, do you want to just share a little bit about each of your dogs, who they are, and anything you're working on with them? Eileen Anderson: Sure. That is the easiest thing in the world to talk about. I currently have two dogs. I have Zani, who is a hound mix. She looks kind of like a black-and-tan Beagle, and for those who have seen any of my pictures and videos, she's the one who tilts her head adorably. She was a rehome. I found her at age 1, and took her from someone who could not take care of her any longer. She has a fantastic temperament, and anybody would love to have Zani. What I'm working with her right now on is that she unfortunately had an accident in February and ran full-tilt into a fence, actually was driven into the fence, I suspect, by my other dog. I was there, I saw it happen, and she got a spinal cord concussion. She was knocked completely out and turned into a little noodle, and I thought I had lost her. But I took her to the vet, she got a CT scan, and they said they didn't see any permanent damage, that she had just gotten this jolt to her spinal cord. She was quadriplegic. I took her home, her not being able to walk or anything. But the vet was right — she did gradually recover, and she's still recovering. We're more than a month out now, but we're mostly practicing getting around safely, walking, going up and down the steps, and she's a little trooper. She hasn't had any mental problems at all. But it's been quite a challenge for me. I had to make her a safe space where she couldn't fall down because literally she couldn't walk at first. Melissa Breau: That's so scary. Eileen Anderson: It was really scary. It scared me to death. I thought she had died. I thought I had seen her pass away. But as those kind of accidents go, ours was pretty lucky. And my other dog is Clara. She's an All-American, she's bigger, she's about 44 pounds, and she is the one that I found as a feral puppy. I'll talk about her now and then through the podcast, but she has come so far. Right now we're working on just widening her world more. We have another friend's house that we get to go to now. She's met another dog, she's liking another person, and actually because of all the work I've done with her, she is a lot more stable in many new situations than lots of “normal dogs.” It's just such a gas to have a dog who's resilient. But that's what I'm doing with Clara right now. Melissa Breau: That's awesome. I mentioned the degrees in music and engineering science. How did you end up in dog training? Obviously you didn't start out there. Eileen Anderson: My career has kind of been all over the place. I was working first as an editor at a university, and then at my current job, which is a social services job helping women find health care for breast problems. I was all but dissertation in engineering science. I had passed my qualifying exams and was going on to be an engineer in acoustics, and I got a dog who was a challenge for me, and like everybody else, I got into dog training because I got the difficult dog. That dog was Summer. That was in 2006, and she was more than I was prepared to take care of. She chewed everything, she bullied my younger dog — my smaller dog, sorry — she jumped the fence, she was just basically a busy teenage dog. Right now I think back and it's like her problems were nothing, but at the time they were huge for me, so bad that I got depressed because it was changing my life so much to have this dog whom I loved, I loved her pretty much right away, but every time I turned around there was a new problem. And so I looked for help in the usual ways. I got on the Internet, I found a local obedience club and went through the usual things there, and somewhere along the line — of course I got a good teacher — but along the line I got hooked. And actually dog training made me quit graduate school because I was like, This is a lot more interesting than active noise control to me. Melissa Breau: You mentioned you started out finding a club. What got you started as a positive trainer? Eileen Anderson: I started at the very beginning as a positive That's what I want to do trainer, a wanna-be. I would read about it on the Internet and I thought, That's what I want to do. But when you're on your own and you don't have any coaching, and you're going by … and this was in the earlier days of the Internet and there weren't as many good instructions out there, so you try something and it's kind of in a vacuum, like “be a tree” when your dog pulls when they're walking on leash. You know, stand still and they'll stop doing that. I did that for months and it didn't work because I didn't have the other half of it, which was reinforce them for walking by your side. So I figured, Well, this positive reinforcement stuff sounds good, but it's not very practical, or maybe my dog's not very smart. I did go … those things we think, you know. I did go to a balanced obedience club. I'm still a member there, the people there adore their dogs, and we get along just fine. I've seen a lot of good changes there while I've gone there. But I knew that collar pops were not something that I wanted to do, but I could not find other ways to, for instance, get Summer to keep from wandering off into the wide blue yonder mentally whenever we were together and from physically wandering off whenever she had a chance. And so I did go that direction. I did the collar pops, I did a prong collar for a while, and then I found the agility part of the club, and that's a familiar story, I'm sure, to a lot of people as well. They were more positive — not completely, but more positive — and through them I found my current trainer, who is Lisa Mantle of Roland, Arkansas, who was trained by Bob and Marian Bailey — Bob Bailey lives here in Arkansas, by the way — and that's when I really started to get it. Lisa is a great teacher, and that's pretty much when I turned the corner. Melissa Breau: I think you mentioned some exciting news related to your experiences there. Do you want to share? Eileen Anderson: Yes. I am writing another book. I'm writing Summer's story. Summer, I sadly lost her last summer at only the age of 11. I thought she was going to live a much longer time. She was very healthy. But she got hemangiosarcoma, and after some misdiagnosis of back pain for about a month, we got the news, and by the time they did do exploratory surgery, but it was too far gone and I did have to euthanize her. I wasn't ready for that at all, nobody ever is, but I didn't have any lead time on it. But she was my crossover dog. She went through all of this with me patiently as I learned how to do things and how to treat her better, and she was a lovely soul, and I'm writing a book about that. It's the story of Summer and me, and also I'm threading into it how I came to change my training ways, and I'm trying to do it in a non-preachy way. I'm writing to pet owners in the book. Recently I saw an op-ed in … I think it was the New York Times, by somebody who just wrote a nice little piece about her old dog, and there were the hallmarks of someone who didn't know a lot about training. There were humorous moments about how they had to chase the dog down and force the pills down his throat and it took all this, and it wasn't mentioned as any kind of morality thing. It was just part of the story. I want our positive training stories to be part of the story too. Not as a preachy thing necessarily, although I can preach with the best of them, but as just part of the story, incidental, this is how we did things. I am feeling like that would be a very persuasive way to write the book. Also I just want to write the book because I loved my dog. But I'm hoping it will be another way just to get the message out in a very incidental way that there's nothing abnormal about this. This is how I trained my dog, and this is how we learned to get along. Melissa Breau: When are you thinking it's going to be available? Do you know yet, and is there anything more you want to share into how you're planning to talk about that crossing-over experience? Eileen Anderson: I'm aiming for 2019, which probably means 2020. I'm telling the story of our lives together, and that is my crossover story. Of course I can pull from blogs, which help me get a timeline there. It's hard to remember what happened when, but I will be incorporating some of the blogs. I've written many blogs about her over the years. But again, I want to tell the story. I don't want to have villains. I do want to have heroes, and I want to talk about how my mind changed as things went along, how my perspective changed, because it changed my whole life. Having an epiphany about positive reinforcement really does filter through your whole life, once you get it, and I hope I can tell that story in a very casual and again non-preachy way and make it interesting for people. Melissa Breau: Now, you mentioned that this is going to be another book. It's not your first book. I do want to talk about that first book a little bit. Can you share a little bit about Remember Me? Loving and Caring for a Dog With Canine Cognitive Dysfunction? What IS canine cognitive dysfunction, first, and how do you talk about it in the book? Eileen Anderson: Canine cognitive dysfunction is a term for mental and behavioral decline that's associated with changes in the brains of aging dogs. It's not just normal aging. We all lose some of our marbles as we age, but this is abnormal aging, it's a neurological condition, and it has behavioral symptoms. It's way under-diagnosed and it's undertreated. In the book I tell the story of my little dog, Cricket. She was a rat terrier and she lived to be probably 17, could have been even older, because she was a middle-aged dog when I got her from a rescue. She got canine cognitive dysfunction, and she had it for at least a year before I identified what was wrong. I didn't know what to tell my vet. Her first symptom was anxiety, and so I just thought she was getting nervous. I didn't realize that that could be a symptom of CCD. So the book is the story of Cricket, and how things went for her and for me. The message of the book is that there is help out there and that we need to know about this disease so dogs can get diagnosed sooner. There's no cure, but there are drugs that can ameliorate the symptoms, there are drugs that can help the dogs and the people have an easier life, and there are so many ways you can enrich the dog's life. They can still have a good life. Melissa Breau: If you could tell people just one thing about Canine Cognitive Dysfunction, what would it be? What do you wish people really knew about that? Eileen Anderson: I might cheat and I'm going to say two. One is talk to your vet. I am not a veterinarian. I can't diagnose your dog. There's lists all over the Internet now of symptoms, I certainly have one, but you can read all the symptoms but you cannot diagnose your dog. You need to talk to your vet many times about this and get educated, and if you're worried at all about your dog, talk about a diagnosis. The second thing is just from my heart. If your dog is diagnosed with Canine Cognitive Dysfunction, your dog's life is not over. Like I was saying, there are many ways to enrich your dog's life, and if we can get over our own preconceptions, see the dog standing in the corner and go, “Oh, poor thing,” well, sometimes, yes, some of their symptoms are pathetic and uncomfortable for them and need some intervention, but lots of the things they do, I think they're just in la-la land. They don't know what you know about what they used to be able to do. So that's my little lecture on that is don't give up on your dog, don't think they're miserable unless you have good evidence that they are, because some of this is just unfamiliar to us. They do odd things, and odd doesn't necessarily mean that the dog is unhappy. You need to learn about that, and again, talk to your vet about all of it. That was more than one thing. I'm sorry! Melissa Breau: That's OK! Sometimes the best things are the more than one thing, right? Eileen Anderson: Right. Melissa Breau: To move from your books to your site for a little bit – and for listeners I will make sure to include links to both of Eileen's sites in the show notes — for listeners who haven't been to your site or aren't familiar with it, can you share a little bit about the topics you usually write about? Eileen Anderson: I write about training dogs, I write about learning theory, and the thing that I'm able to do that lots of professional trainers are not is that I write about my mistakes a lot. I show things that I've tried that don't work and I show things that I've tried that do work. But on my site you get to see videos of dogs who have never learned a behavior before, and me trying to train them with the best intentions and with a lot of information, but with gaps in my understanding. You can see a typical person training their dog and making mistakes, and you can learn from my mistakes. I talk about dog body language a lot too. Having all the different dogs I've had, I have great footage of the interesting things they do with each other and with us. You know, body language is a whole other part we need to learn about when we're trying to train our dogs well. But I take a scientific approach to the training, but I show a human trying to do it. Melissa Breau: Fair enough. You mentioned the scientific piece there, and I think one of the things that I like best about your work is that you really do approach things pretty scientifically. A while ago you wrote a post asking the question, “When is citing a research study not enough?” and I'd love to talk about that a bit. When IS citing a research study not enough — at least if we want to be right about the facts and present ideas that are actually backed up by research? Eileen Anderson: OK. One research study is almost never enough. Usually when we want a research study, it's because we want to win an argument these days, or we want to know something for a fact, you know, “Let's get to the bottom of this. Let's figure it out.” The problem is that we need to look at the bulk of the literature. One brand new study, if it's the first on a certain topic, that's just the beginning of the research, and you can't flap that around and say, “Hey, I've proved it now.” You have to look at the bulk of the research, and one example I like to give is that some topics don't have studies because they are so basic that they are in textbooks. One good example of that is that people will come along and say, “I need a research study that proves that you can't reinforce fear.” OK, well, as far as I know, there isn't one, per se, and there's not one with dogs, and the reason is that that information is implicit and explicit in textbooks and review papers. To answer that question, all you need to know about — all you need to know about! — you need to know about the difference between operant behavior and respondent behavior, you need to know about how emotions work, and you need to know about the sympathetic nervous system response. And if you put all that together, which is in any psychology book, pretty much — you might have to crack a biology book for some of it — you can see why they didn't have to do a study to show that emotions are operant behaviors and you don't reinforce them. You can reinforce behaviors that come around them. But that's an example of it. You know, people want one study for something, and it's either something that's so basic that you could just open a book and find out, or it's something that's so new that we might have one study that shows it, but we need for five or ten more to come in. So I always tell people, “Look for the review study, look for the one that summarizes the research, because that's going to do the work of assessing whether the study is any good.” Because I don't know about you, but I don't have a psychology degree. I do have a graduate degree. I have two of them. So I'm familiar with research, but I don't have the basis, the basic knowledge, to really assess a study. So I have to go to the people who can help, and that's the people who write the review articles and the people who write the textbooks.   Melissa Breau: I think that's great advice and a good thing for people to remember, especially in this day and age, like you said, we tend to want to win an argument instead of thinking, Wait a minute, let's make sure we have our facts straight. The example you mentioned in the post was a post you wrote about errorless learning. I was hoping you'd be willing to maybe share that story with our listeners. Eileen Anderson: Sure, and this is an example of making a mistake. It was Susan Friedman who told me a couple of years back when I was cringing about making public mistakes and she said, “That's like science. Science gets it wrong, and then somebody comes along and gets a little better and you get a little closer. You're shaping the knowledge. So there's no shame in it, even though it really feels like there is.” I took exception to the term “errorless learning,” because I read the work of Herb Terrace, who did the famous work, I think it was in the '60s, with pigeons, where they did thousands and thousands of repetitions of pigeons pecking on a lit disc, and it had, I think, a green light on it. The errorless part was that they made it super-easy to peck on that disc, and then they were teaching them also not to peck on a red disc. At first the other disc was way far away. Then, when they did light it up, they lit it very dimly. In other words, they kept that green disc very attractive and just kind of snuck in the other one. And in thousands of repetitions, when this was done gradually, some of the pigeons had less than one percent error rate, which all of us should aspire to. Well, I just took exception to that, because they were in completely controlled, a lab environment, the pigeons were starving, you know, they always take them down to a low body weight so they're wanting to work, they controlled many, many more variables than we ever can, and it just didn't seem like something we could really emulate. And even the term to me — I nitpick words a lot — but it was not errorless. They had a one percent error rate, so you can't call that errorless. So I wrote a little … kind of a ranting article about that, and I snorted around about it. I had a friend — she could have done this through the public comments, but she didn't — I had a friend whose parents were Ph.D. students under Skinner, so she's one of the few people in the world who grew up as a human in a positive reinforcement environment, and she said, “Eileen, that's not quite right. Herb Terrace, his experiments, yes, they were famous, but he was not the first one to talk about errorless learning, and you kind of got it wrong.” She educated me, and it turns out that Skinner, back in the 1930s, was talking about errorless learning and errorless teaching, because of course to him, if the student made an error, it's really a mistake of the teacher. And it was — some of us have read about it since then — it was kind of the same principal, but of providing a path for the learner where the easiest path to go is to the behavior you want with the fewest number of errors possible. He had had an argument with Thorndike, who said, “You have to make errors to learn,” and Skinner said, “No, you don't.” And Skinner kind of won that one. We think of Skinner as just this dry, cold guy, but he was passionate about teaching and learning, and he was trying to be as humane as possible and make an easy path for the learner, and there's nothing bad about that, in my opinion. There's nothing bad. And so I wrote a Part 2, and I left Part 1 up. I was tempted to get rid of it, but I left Part 1 up and I just put a note at the top saying, “If you read this, there are mistakes in here, so please read Part 2, or just read Part 2 instead.” Melissa Breau: Fair enough. I think it's awesome that you were willing to leave that up. I think that that really says something about your willingness to be transparent about all of this. Like you said, you feel like you can show those errors and those mistakes, where a trainer may not feel comfortable with that. So I think that's fantastic. Eileen Anderson: Thank you. That's something I try to do for the community, even though even for me it's pretty hard sometimes. Melissa Breau: How do you try to keep up to date with the latest information, and how do you try to make sure that you're conducting good research on this stuff when you're writing? Eileen Anderson: One thing I learned in my science degree is you don't just read the paper. Your job is then to go through all the footnotes, to read all the footnotes, and then get on Google Scholar and look at who has cited the paper later. Because if you looked up a paper in 1975 for “Why do humans get ulcers?” that paper would say “From stress and acidic foods.” If you don't look later in the literature, you won't find out that, woops, actually it's from an infection, which they discovered in 1981 or '82. So you have to look before the research piece that you're reading and after it. What I do personally, I set up some Google Alerts, both from standard Google and Google Scholar, and there are a couple topics — one of them is dementia in dogs, and the other one is sound sensitivity and sound capabilities of dogs — and I get alerts whenever anything new is published. Most of it is crap, but I get the good stuff too. I get stuff from Google Scholar when there's a new paper, for instance, on dog dementia, which one did come out this year. That's pretty much how I try to keep up. I try to keep focus because there's way too much for anybody to learn these days. But I use the tools that are out there and I try to be thorough in terms of also looking at who is arguing against this. That's the hard part, especially when you get attached to something. You don't want to read about why it's wrong, but I try to do that too. Melissa Breau: That's awesome. To shift gears a little bit, you've also written quite a bit on your site about Clara, and you mentioned earlier that she was a feral dog and you've done a ton of socialization work with her. Do you mind just sharing a little bit about your approach there and how you've gone about that? Eileen Anderson: I would love to, and I have to credit my teacher, Lisa Mantle, with whom … I could not have done this without her. She's had a lot of experience with feral and other very challenged dogs. She actually says that Clara is one of the most challenging ones she has had. When Clara came to me, she was between eight and ten weeks old, and her socialization window was in the act of shutting, probably that very night. She was scared of me, and avoidant, and I didn't think I was going to be able to catch her. She was slinking away and acting like a wild animal. But when I opened my front door, little Cricket, the rat terrier, was barking inside, and Clara pricked up her ears and slunk by me like I wasn't there, and came into my house and sat down next to Cricket in her crate. And so it was the other dog that got Clara into the house. Within the evening she decided I was OK, and part of that was because of spray cheese, which she still thinks is manna from heaven. But I assumed, silly me, that since I had gotten in, everybody would get in, you know, Now she likes people, look, she thinks I'm great, she's sitting in my lap, she's flirting with me, she's jumping up and down. And so the next day I took her somewhere, and I had her in the crate in the car, and I said, “Look, I've got this puppy,” and opened the door and Clara went, “Grrrr,” this little tiny puppy growling in the crate. I thought, Oh dear, I've got more of a problem here than I thought. Back to getting to socialization, it was technically not socialization at some point because she was past that window — and there's a terminology dispute about this, and I try to placate the people who say, “It's not socialization after they're a certain age.” We were doing desensitization, counterconditioning, and habituation, but we started with people a hundred feet away. That's how fearful of people, and we had to start very far away. We did very, very careful exposures, and this was over the course of months and years. We did a lot of it at a shopping mall, which sounds crazy, but the layout of the place was such that we really could go a hundred feet away and there wouldn't be anybody to bother us. But it was extremely gradual, and every appearance of a person, whether they were fifty feet away or, later on, walking by on the sidewalk, was paired with something awesome, which, you know, spray cheese or something else she loved. McDonald's chicken sandwiches were also very popular. But it was just very gradual, and my teacher was very good at, when we'd hit a bump in the road or get to a plateau, sometimes we could work through it, sometimes we'd just take a different approach. She has good intuitions about that. And one day she said, “Let's just take her down the sidewalk in the mall,” and by golly, she was fine. She could walk among throngs of people, as long as … there's things she doesn't like. If someone walks up to her and says, “Oh, a puppy!” and stares at her, she's going to chuff at them. But people walking by, people brushing against her, sudden changes in the environment, wheelchairs, anything that might bother a lot of dogs, she is great with, and she has come such a very long way. But it was all very gradual, and it was done through desensitization, counterconditioning, and habituation. Melissa Breau: Just to give people a little bit of an idea, when you say “very gradual,” how old is she now? How long have you been working on this stuff? Eileen Anderson: She is 6. The point where we could walk her around in the mall was about two years after we started. But she was happy. It wasn't this, OK, she's all right walking around. She was great. Melissa Breau: Right, right. I think it's interesting to ask for the timeline a little bit there, because it helps people understand how much work goes into it sometimes. But also there's a light at the end of the tunnel. Eileen Anderson: That's right, that's right. And thinking back, a lot of people have had harder situations than we have, but we did have a pretty hard one. She basically was like a wild animal. I didn't see her as a fearful dog, she wasn't congenitally startling or fearful. She was just different, you know. She was like a wild animal and had that natural distrust of humans. Melissa Breau: I don't know about other people necessarily, but I really find that I personally struggle with what feels like two conflicting pieces of advice out there when it comes to socialization or even the stuff you're talking about. The idea that, Option 1, bring your puppy lots of places, but don't overface them, make sure it's all positive, but bring them all the places you go. And the second is never bring your puppy places unless you're absolutely sure you can just get up and leave if it's too much for them. I was curious how you handled determining what to expose Clara to, what she's ready for, and what is likely to still even today be too much for her. Eileen Anderson: That's a really great question. With her, of course we had to take mostly the second method. That was being careful that we had a way to get out. She was not a puppy that I could lug around everywhere and expose her to. I think there can be value in that, as long as you can protect the puppy from people who do the wrong stuff, which any reactive dog group will tell about those people who are going to do stuff to your dog if they get a chance. But today I feel like I need to just be careful and watch her. For instance, even without really working on veterinary visits, she's good at veterinary visits now, just because of the general work we've done. There's some times you have to take your dog to the vet, and she does really well. And I feel like I could take her to a new place with people and walk around and she would do fine. I would just watch for situations where people would be too assertive towards her. So it's not so much the environment, it's not environmental changes, it's not crowds. It's that person who zeroes in and says, “Oh, what a beautiful dog! Can I pet her?” while you're running away. Melissa Breau: Right. We're getting to the end here, and I have these three questions I typically ask everybody the first time they're on the show, so I'd love to work through those. The first one is: What is the dog-related accomplishment that you're proudest of? Eileen Anderson: It is that I used classical conditioning to prevent Clara from picking up on Summer's barking. Summer was a reactive dog and she barked regularly at things that went by the house, particularly delivery trucks and things that were hard for me to control. You can't control those, and I wasn't always home. So she had some untreated reactivity, and I did not want Clara, the baby puppy, to pick up on that. She had enough problems. And so, from the very beginning, very consistently, when Summer would bark, wherever she was, I would give Clara a magnificent treat, usually again spray cheese. It didn't matter what the dogs were doing, what was happening. So I did a classical pairing of Summer barks, wonderful treats fall from the sky. Lots of the things I think up on my own don't work out really well because I can't see down the line well enough to see the end ramifications, but that one worked out great. I have a dog who, when she hears another dog bark, looks at me eagerly instead of running to go bark with them. Just considering that she had so many other challenges, I didn't want her to have that challenge. I have a video of her literally drooling when she heard Summer bark, and so I can prove, yes, I have the Pavlovian association there — another dog barking means yummy stuff is coming my way. I am really proud of doing that. It has paid off in so many ways. Melissa Breau: That's awesome, and that's a fantastic idea. The other question, and usually this is one of my favorite questions of the podcast, is: What's the best piece of training advice that you've ever heard? Eileen Anderson: Watch the dog. And I can say that in two ways. One of them is learn about dog body language. I posted a blog just yesterday, I think it was, two days ago, about accidentally using punishing things because you're following a protocol and trying to do everything right, and you don't notice that you're snapping your hand in the dog's face or something like that they really don't like. So watch the dog. Make sure that what you're doing is OK, even when you're concentrating on your mechanics and following the directions that you've read from your teacher. So that's one way. And also I do agility, and so many times when I made an error, it's like my teacher would say: “You weren't watching your dog.” And of course there's times we have to take our eyes off them, but “Watch the dog.” That's my mantra. Melissa Breau: Excellent. It's nice and concise and easy to remember, too, which is a plus. Last question here: Who is somebody else in the dog world that you look up to? Eileen Anderson: My friend Marge Rogers. Marge and I kind of grew up together in the dog training online world and we started our journeys together. Marge became a professional trainer and I became a writer. But Marge, before there was ever a Fenzi Academy and people sharing these wonderful ideas of how to be humane to dogs in competition, before there was ever that, Marge trained her dogs way over fluency before she ever competed them. She's also fantastic at using multiple reinforcers just as a matter of course. Any dog that goes to her is going to end up being able to switch back and forth between a plate of food and a tug toy, and they can tug when the food's on the ground, and they can eat food even if they love to have a ball. They will get not only multiple reinforcers but the ability to respond to the trainer to transfer back and forth between those reinforcers. She's just fantastic at that. She helps me with all my problems. She can usually give a one-line response to whatever stupid thing I'm doing. And not only that, she's humble. She's always learning. She's one of the most humble people I know, and I just love her training. Melissa Breau: That's awesome. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Eileen. This has been fantastic. Eileen Anderson: You are welcome. It is my pleasure. I love to talk about this stuff, and I am very honored to be on the Fenzi podcast. Melissa Breau: Well, thank you, and thanks to all of our listeners for tuning in! We'll be back next week with Kathy Sdao to talk about everything from training dolphins to dog training — it should be a pretty deep dive on behavior! Don't miss it. If you haven't already, subscribe to our podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. Credits: Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzi for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty-free by BenSound.com; the track featured here is called “Buddy.” Audio editing provided by Chris Lang.

Summary: Julie Daniels has worked with dogs her whole life. In fact, she learned to walk by holding on to a German Shepherd. She is one of the foremost names in the sport of dog agility in the United States. She was one of the early champions of the sport and helped many clubs throughout the country get up and running. She owns and operates both Kool Kids Agility in Deerfield, NH, and White Mountain Agility in North Sandwich, NH. Julie is well known as a premier teacher at all levels of play. She has competed, titled, and won with all sorts of dogs through the years, including two Rottweilers, a Springer Spaniel, a Cairn Terrier, two Corgis, and four Border Collies. She is the only person to make USDAA National Grand Prix finals with a Rottie or a Springer, and she did it two times each. She is also a two-time national champion and a two-time international champion. Links Kool Kids Agility White Mountain Agility Next Episode:  To be released 4/06/2018, featuring Dr. Jessica Hekman to talk about building a performance dog. TRANSCRIPTION: Melissa Breau: This is Melissa Breau, and you're listening to the Fenzi Dog Sports Podcast brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy, an online school dedicated to providing high-quality instruction for competitive dog sports using only the most current and progressive training methods. Today we'll be talking to Julie Daniels. Julie has worked with dogs her whole life. In fact, she learned to walk by holding on to a German Shepherd. She is one of the foremost names in the sport of dog agility in the United States. She was one of the early champions of the sport and helped many clubs throughout the country get up and running. She owns and operates both Kool Kids Agility in Deerfield, NH, and White Mountain Agility in North Sandwich, NH. Julie is well known as a premier teacher at all levels of play. She has competed, titled, and won with all sorts of dogs through the years, including two Rottweilers, a Springer Spaniel, a Cairn Terrier, two Corgis, and four Border Collies. She is the only person to make USDAA National Grand Prix finals with a Rottie or a Springer, and she did it two times each. She is also a two-time national champion and a two-time international champion. Hi Julie! Welcome to the podcast. Julie Daniels: Hi Melissa. Melissa Breau: To jump into things, can you just share a little bit of information about the dogs you currently share your life with and what you're working on with them? Julie Daniels: I have three Border Collies at this time, and my oldest, who is 12-and-a-half — don't tell her that — she recently injured herself. She tore the collateral ligament in her knee. That's a long rehab, and although she's 12, it is very difficult to keep her down. But my best friend is Karen Kay, who is an expert in rehab for both people and for dogs, a fitness expert, so we're diligently bringing Boss back, slowly but surely. But it's tough. Even at 12-and-a-half, if a dog is used to taking a lot of activity and getting a lot of exercise, it's very, very difficult to tone that down and do specific things. But anyway, that's my 12-year-old. My 10-year-old is Sport, and he's a finished product. He likes training as much as anybody. It's just a pleasure to live with and to show he's quite the guy. My youngster, now 2-and-a-half, is Kool-Aid, and I'm having a lot of fun with her. Kool-Aid has been a Fenzi-ite her entire life, so she's one of the stars, even in Baby Genius and also in Adolescent Sport Dogs. She's just a pleasure to work with and train. You'll see a lot of her. Melissa Breau: Awesome. I know here at FDSA one of the things you're perhaps most well known for is your “Genius” series. I know a big part of those classes — and all of your classes, really — is about building confidence. Can you share a little bit about why that's so critical for young dogs and maybe how you go about it? Julie Daniels: Right off the bat in puppyhood, we want our dogs to feel excited about the environment. We want them to do a couple of things. We want to nurture curiosity so that they feel attraction for novelty, which is the natural puppy trait. It is something they were born with — puppies are born curious — so I feel it's up to us to nurture that; yes, to guide it and direct it, but not to lose it. Don't lose that curiosity. Not so different from human children, I think. That's a very important thing. The other thing we want to do is develop a small measure of self-reliance in very young dogs so that they offer interaction with the world. And that gives us a chance to choose — to shape, if you will — what we like best about their behavior choices so that we can guide them along the way to a mutually satisfying life with humans. So yeah, those two things. Melissa Breau: To dig in a little bit into one of the Genius classes, Baby Genius is on the calendar for April. How much of that class is about teaching skills and “learning to learn,” for lack of a better term, and how much is about teaching the dogs a positive attitude toward life and training? Julie Daniels: They're both so important. They're both pretty much flipsides of the same coin. I think it's super, super important that you never get away from how the dog feels about life. So that positive conditioned emotional response that we all talk about, the positive CER, is really for interacting with people, interacting with the environment, as I spoke of before. We want to develop the curiosity and the initiative of the very young dog, and that starts in Baby Genius, big time. So it's not just about skills, no matter what you do. Even if you are training skills, you're always working on how the dog feels about life and how the dog feels about interacting with you, training with you, playing with you, if you will. So I have to say that the class is pretty much half of one and half of the other. It's not so much about skills. Good question, Melissa. I really thought about how to respond to that, and I'm thinking half and half, but it's probably more about life and less about specific skills. Guidance, yes, lots of guidance, and puppy's choice is extremely important in the class. So things are, by design, geared toward helping them choose behaviors that we would like for them to keep, but it's probably more about life, Melissa, and less about skills. So there you go. Melissa Breau: With that said, what are some of the skills you cover? Julie Daniels: Ah! I have to give those away? Let me talk about one that's both, because I could go on all day about that, and you probably have another question or two for me. So why don't I talk about one in specific that I think is maybe a good example of the life version and the skills version, and that would be the recall, because you can't do a baby class without working on recall, and yet I don't really start out working on recall at all. I work on name. I want to create extremely high value for name and attraction, orientation, toward the sound of name. So that's not operant. That's classical conditioning. And I do a whole lot with that just with the little name game. When you're playing name game — with any dog, mind you, not just with a baby; it happens to me a lot that I get adult dogs in for board and train, and they need a refresher on how they feel about hearing their name. It happens to many, many dogs that they've learned not to enjoy hearing their name, so I change it. But with babies it's so easy and fun to just play games, and don't forget: say your dog's name and don't think it's not a recall. Don't think, Oh, the dog needs to be going the other way when I call his name. No, no. It's classical conditioning I'm talking about, so I want that dog to love, love, love the sound of his own name. That's different from the operant games that we play for instilling a recall, which are also important. That's the skills part. But when you ask me whether it's more skills or more enjoyment, you know, life enjoyment, I think it's life enjoyment. I think name game is much, much, much more important in Baby Genius, much more important than the skill of, for example, recall. Melissa Breau: I imagine that the skills you focus on puppies has evolved some over time and that all of this didn't just spring from your brain fully formed. Do you mind sharing just a little bit about how you've decided over the years what it is important to focus on with a puppy versus what you really can wait on until the dog is a little bit older? Julie Daniels: That's fun, isn't it? It's hard to break a brain apart into various classes when you want to teach everything at once. This program started at least twenty years ago with a camp that I did up at White Mountain Agility. I was doing five to eight camps per year, and one of them I decided had to be only for novices. I called it Novice Geniuses, and that camp was a huge success. It was tons of fun, if you can imagine, and it was very, very useful for a lot of people in learning to start their dogs off on the right foot. It certainly was adamant about how the dog feels about it is much more important than whether the dog takes away this particular skill or that particular skill. So it was a great camp like that. And that's what I started out to do for FDSA. I called it Puppy Genius, and it was pretty much the Novice Genius program with a very few elements left out, which were for older dogs. Ultimately it was way too big a territory. It was too large a class in scope, and so I then broke it down into two classes called Baby Genius, for these youngsters, and that's what's coming up in April for the young dogs, and then Adolescent Sport Dog is what I called the former older dog elements of Novice Genius. I tried to break the class into two and then expand upon each of the elements within that smaller scope, and I think that worked out really well. That's what I'll continue to do. So Baby Genius really is for the younger dogs, and as we all know, foundation is everything, and so many dogs can benefit from Baby Genius. Any dog could benefit from the Baby Genius class because it is so elementary, absolutely no prerequisite required, and any dog can play. As I said, I take in many adult dogs for board and train who need, for example, name game, which you could play with a 7- or 8-week-old puppy. Melissa Breau: If people wanted to take one of the more advanced classes, do they need that first class? Is it a prerequisite, or can they just take the one that they need, or what is your recommendation there? Julie Daniels: When I taught Adolescent Sport Dog, I wanted very much for Puppy Genius or Baby Genius to be prerequisite material. It didn't work out that that was all that necessary because I ended up going back to those foundations as we needed to do them. So it worked out as a standalone class, and I don't think I would make it a prerequisite. But it's one of those classes — I feel the same way about my empowerment class — well, everybody ought to take it! But if, for some reason, you don't, I can make it work for you! So I'm not worried about it as a prerequisite, but it sure is good stuff for anyone. Melissa Breau: Excellent. I think some people think, Oh, Baby Genius, my dog's no longer a baby, but like you said, it's still applicable, it's still good stuff, it's still foundation skills that every dog should have. Julie Daniels: That's a good way to describe it. It's foundation. Melissa Breau: I know we talked a little bit about building confidence earlier, and I know in the description for your shiny, new, shaping class you mention that it will focus on using shaping principles to build confidence and teamwork. So I wanted to ask you why it is that shaping is such a good tool for accomplishing those two things. Julie Daniels: It's one good tool, obviously. It's not the only way to do things, we all know that, but it's one good tool for building confidence, specifically because shaping done well inspires the dog of any age — it can be any age dog — to offer a little bit more, to try a little bit more, to use the initiative that I spoke about earlier, to develop the curiosity and then use initiative. What we're working toward when we build upon those things, we're working toward a measure of self-reliance, so we want the dog — and that's where confidence comes in — we're building the dog's ability to make a choice and to enjoy the consequences of this choice. Every once in a while in life it's really important that the consequence teach the dog not to do that again. We let daily life do that. We let other dogs do that. We humans can use artful shaping to almost eliminate the need for a tough consequence to make it hard on the dog. We can become expert at noticing the tiny little elements of curiosity and initiative, and by rewarding those in specific ways, we can create more and more behaviors along that same line that strengthen the dog's ability to behave or perform in the way that we would like to see again. So shaping is artful; yes, it's scientific — and we will go into the science — but really this shaping class is not as scientific as some other shaping class would be, because it is only using the principles of shaping, which are good, clean mechanics and keen observations — very, very important elementary skills for shaping practices, but we are only using those shaping practices in order to get to the good stuff, the bigger picture of curiosity, initiative, self-reliance, you know, eagerness to work, not just for correctness. So that's how this class will run. One of the lectures — I'll just tease you — that will be one of the first lectures in Week 2, for example, is called, “When Did Silent Shaping Become Rigid Shaping?” Do you get what I mean? Melissa Breau: Yes. Julie Daniels: That's what I mean about you can be scientifically spot-on and not really be creating what you want in your dog. Melissa Breau: That's an interesting lecture title, and that will hopefully be a really great thing for people to think about, even before they get a chance to read the lecture. I know in the description you also mention that a lot of your favorite confidence-building games are perfect for practicing shaping. What did you mean by that, and can you talk us through an example of how that works? Julie Daniels: Oh gosh, I'd love to. Some of the games that we play in confidence-building classes, not just empowerment, but that's the big one that is well known in the Fenzi world. Empowerment uses many strange materials, and people will talk about they have a cardboard collection, they have a bubble wrap collection, they have a metal utensil collection. People talk about their bakeware collection. Some people actually cook with this stuff. We certainly don't. I mean that kind of thing, interaction with things that pop underneath you, things that feel squishy and move underneath you, they're unstable, things that make noise, for example, metal noise is very big in obedience training and it's also very, very big in seesaw training. We did a huge amount of work with noise making with metal, and we use noise tolerance, meaning someone else is making the noise and you don't have any say about it. That can be tough for some dogs and easy for others. The other element of that is noise empowerment: what if I'm being invited to make the noise myself. I'm controlling it, I'm in charge of it, I learn what it sounds like, and now it's up to me whether I want to make that happen again and again. So we create the dog's desire to be part of the environment in an active way. We want the dog to be an active participant in the experiences that he's going to have. That's about confidence and empowerment and such. Shaping is the absolute best way to get those things, and you can well imagine that some puppies — or any dog; I'm saying puppy only because I'm teaching Baby Genius, but any dog is invited to play — you can imagine just that taking a closer look at a pile of bubble wrap and plastic on the floor is probably a clickable event for many, many dogs, whereas there would be other dogs who would actually inadvertently scare themselves by jumping in the pile knowing nothing about what is going to happen. That would be handler error. That would be a poor job of establishing operations for the shaping that we want to do. So it's much better for us to learn artful ways to observe what the dog is doing, what the dog is about to do sometimes, and to offer delivery of reinforcement in such a way that the dog is not going to be offended but is going to be curious about doing more and gradually more. So shaping being the practice of building successive approximations toward an end-goal behavior. There are two ways that I make use of that. One is that I'm using end-goal behaviors that are not “world peace.” If your dog jumps into a bin full of bubble wrap, good for you, but you didn't just earn a MACH. So I separate, in other words, the elements that we're working with from the real-world elements of competition, and to a certain extent remove them from daily life, and embrace the dog's ability to enjoy silly things. They're silly things, there's no doubt about it. But it doesn't take a big stretch to see that the dog's confidence with these silly things — if, again, we do a good job of generalizing and creating fluency for these skills — it doesn't take a big stretch to see their usefulness in the dog's daily life as he meets other things in the world. So that's what we're trying to do. We take silly games and we build, through good shaping practices, we build the dog's desire to interact with the novelty in the environment, and we build the dog's enjoyment of the surprises that could happen as a result of that. Does that make sense? Melissa Breau: Absolutely, and I think there's a thread here that you've hinted at a little bit as we've gone through all the questions that's spot-on for everyone to ask you next, which is this idea that people, when they get into dog training, largely think dog training is about the dog, but the more involved they become, most of us realize that it's really at least half, if not three-quarters, about our own skills as a trainer. I wanted to ask how you balance teaching good handler mechanics with canine learning in the class and what aspects of handler skills you plan to talk about. Also, if you'd like to mention why they're so important, that would be awesome, especially when it comes to shaping. Julie Daniels: In the shaping class we'll be talking first and foremost about the handler's job. As I was hinting at, it's our job to set up the scenario so that the dog can be successful. I just call that establishing operations. That's what I was trained to call it back in the 1970s. Establishing operations meaning by the time the dog sees the apparatus or the setup, you have created this little microenvironment — and you have a plan, by the way — so that you are able to build, bing, bing, bing, one success on top of another very quickly so that you're creating this curiosity and this initiative that you wanted to create. For example, it would be a huge mistake to just crowd your dog into a busy place and say, “Hey, I happen to have some bubble wrap. I think I'll do a shaping game of squash the bubble wrap.” But if the environment is absolutely wrong for that new skill, developing that new skill, it will not go well, and that is handler error. It is our job, first and foremost, to set up the operation in such a way to invite success and know what the early steps are going to be, so that we can create, bing, bing, bing, reward, reward, reward, right, right again, bingo, what a genius, ta-da! That's the first order of business as trainers: we're going to be talking about how to establish operations in order to inspire success. And then we'll be talking about how to … obviously the clicking part, but then how to deliver the reinforcement in such a way to invite another success or more behavior or just a repetition of the current behavior. So we'll be talking a whole lot about delivery, as well as about how to establish what we're trying to do. Both those things are important. Melissa Breau: One of the things that I saw on your syllabus that I don't think we've ever really talked about here on the podcast before is this idea of delivery of reinforcement. I know we have a webinar coming up about that in a few weeks with another instructor, but I wanted to ask you about it anyway. How does delivery of reinforcement influence training, and how do you make those decisions? Julie Daniels: I'm glad it is going to be. It's a webinar, it deserves its own webinar, it's really a very big part of the picture and can influence the success of the dog greatly. Part of delivery of reinforcement is geared toward inviting the next rep. The very best example I can think about that is in Chicken Camp. Bob Bailey always says, “Click for behavior, feed for position,” and he's talking about the artful way we move the cup of corn as the chicken is reaching forward and pecking with it. The same thing happens in agility practices with foundation training. We're always moving the reward down the line. We want to be continuing forward toward the behavior that we're trying to create, because necessarily we've only got a tiny little piece of it. That's what shaping's all about. So we're trying to build the next step of the behavior, and using the reward delivery is one very, very effective means of inviting a next correct response. Would you like an example, Melissa? Melissa Breau: Yes, please. Julie Daniels: One good example would be — this isn't necessarily in the Baby Genius class, but it was just in the Canine Fitness class that I was doing with my own instructor, Karen Kay; I'm a student as well as a teacher — so I'm a student in Canine Fitness class, and we were shaping — not just luring, but we were shaping — a complete 360-degree turn on a wobbly surface, so it's very complex, and I was working with Kool-Aid. Well, Kool-Aid already knows an outside turn, and she knows a spin, and she can certainly follow a lure around in a circle. So I could have gotten that done, probably most anybody could get it done, just by luring a circle with a cookie — can you imagine — and then feeding the cookie. Is that shaped? No, not at all. Have you helped create a behavior? Well, maybe. You don't really know. But your dog can indeed follow a cookie around in a circle. There's nothing wrong with that, so I'm not criticizing that. But many of us would choose to do that, and I think it's better to choose to do that, through shaping practices. That would look just a little bit different. Even if you did decide to lure the initial turn of the head, you wouldn't just continue that cookie around in a circle. You would click for that initial head turn before the puppy even gets to the cookie. Then you would deliver that cookie, and as you deliver that cookie — this is the part we're talking about here — you're going to move it a couple or three inches further along the circle. See what I'm picturing? And then you're going to let go. So what's going to happen? Well, you'd better click quickly, because what is going to happen — because you now have removed the lure — what is going to happen is the dog is going to turn around back toward you, and that is not the direction we want to go, is it? We're trying to lure a circle away from us. So what you need to do instead is click before the dog turns back. Can you imagine how quick that is? You perhaps have less than a second in which to get that next click in, and now, Melissa, here's where it comes in again. Reward delivery is buying you the rest of the circle. In perhaps ten little increments around the circle, just as an estimate, you get ten repetitions of creating that puppy's turn around the circle. Instead of one continuous repetition, you get ten repetitions of the puppy learning to turn and move in that circular fashion. That's why shaping, in that one little tiny example, that's why shaping is superior to luring in a simple task like that. Sometimes it's hard to understand that. I'm really glad you brought up this question, and I'm sure it will come up in the webinar as well. It's difficult to help people understand that they actually should do it that way, because if you can picture in my example, it would have taken, oh, I don't know, two seconds perhaps, to lure the entire circle and then give the cookie, and it probably took, I don't know, ten seconds, fifteen seconds, it could possibly even have taken twenty seconds to do it the way I've just described. So I'm hoping, I'm banking on the fact that people will consider the value of shaping as in long-term learning, instead of incidental reps here and there of a behavior, that shaping is more powerful long-term. So that's why I would suggest doing it the way I'm doing it. Shaping is better for long-term learning. It helps the dog offer behavior and learn from the consequences that he can offer more behavior. It just creates a dog who's stronger, more resilient, with a measure of self-reliance, learning to operate in the environment in cooperation with the human. Melissa Breau: Not only that, but in the example you used, he gets maybe ten cookies instead of just one cookie because of the repetition of the behavior. Julie Daniels: For sure. No small matter, that's right! Melissa Breau: In the shaping class, what other skills or concepts are you planning to cover? Julie Daniels: Well, let's see. We'll be doing a whole lot with empowerment-based behaviors. We'll also be doing a little bit with behaviors that will be useful in dog sports. For example, we will be shaping a tuck sit. But I also — this is a disclaimer for Baby Genius class and for shaping class too — we will use props. When we want the babies to learn a specific skill, we're going to use a prop to help them get these things right, because babies don't have the power. In the shaping class, the dog may well have the power, but rather than use just pure shaping techniques to get what we want just in space, we'll use those props to hurry those behaviors along and to help the dog learn to initiate onto equipment. It sounds like it's hard to wean from props, but it's not. If you don't wean from your lures — you know, the primary reinforcer being used as an enticement to behave — that is harder to wean from, if you don't do it early on. We'll be doing that part very early on. But props themselves are not difficult to wean from. Once we have established behaviors that have been created through the props, we'll put them on cue, and then weaning from the props is not difficult. So I'm not worried about that. But we'll be using, in shaping class we'll be using things like platforms and sit targets and maybe some mats, but certainly target sticks. I love to use gear ties and expandable target sticks. We'll do raised targets and low targets, we'll do paw targets and nose targets, and sit targets and stand targets. There's also room in that class — hopefully I've covered everybody's interests now — so we'll also have some room in that class to work on individual projects. I don't think there'll be any individual projects in the first three weeks of class. We'll all be geared toward the foundations, and some people and some dogs will be ahead of others, and that's no problem; I have plenty of material. But I think in the last three weeks of class, this being a first-time class, I'm going to experiment. Can people go off on their own tangents, and I've said yes. Quite a few people have e-mailed me about this. One that has come up many times is that people saw that I was doing the concept of between, beginning in Week 1, and if you think about it, that is the basis for two-by-two weave pole training, so several people have already asked, “Can I use this class to shape weave pole performance?” And I've said, “Absolutely, yes.” This is a great use of shaping, and we are all going to cover the concept of going between two things. There are so many uses for that, not just in agility, but for the people who want to free-shape weave poles, this is a great class. It's a great class. But you'll have to be patient with me, because for the first three weeks we're all going to be working on these foundation skills relating to shaping, and we will be exposed to a lot of different kinds of elements. We're not just going to do between for six weeks, sorry. So once you've gone through the basic empowerment-related and curiosity-related and skills-related behaviors that we'll be shaping — which also, by the way, will build your own expertise with the shaping process and the various ways to build an operation, to establish an operation, to run the operation, and to use reinforcement criteria and timing in effective ways — I figure that's about three solid weeks without doing too much else. And then I'm hoping that Weeks 4, 5, and 6, people who have very specific individual agendas such as weave poles, such as, for example, drop on recalls, such as perfect front tuck sits, such as parallel path, there are so many good things, heeling, I don't really have a problem with that. I think I'm going to experiment with letting people go off on their own individual tangents, and we'll see whether that works out well as a class or whether we actually need six full weeks just to work on the mechanics of shaping. I don't think we will, because this class is geared toward being an overview of good shaping practices and then taking those skills to our activities, whether it be a dog sport in specific or just daily life skills such as getting out in public and the like. I feel like that's my best use of the class is to be able to help people do what they want to do. I'll tell you where I went with this … Melissa Breau: Yeah, yeah, definitely. Julie Daniels: Through all along my good shaping practices, I've been gearing my young dog, Kool-Aid, toward being my seminar dog. So obviously she's going to have to have a myriad of skills. Agility is my sport, but shaping is one of the best and most fun things I do, and I've started another in-person shaping class just last week and I decided, OK, you're 2-and-a-half, little girl, how about you be my dog now? So she is, in this class, my one and only demo dog. She is all by herself for the first time. She did not have her big brother there who's the expert and she's just the tagalong. No, she's now the seminar dog, and so for the first time I had a separate dog bed for her, and I put an x-pen around her because, again, I'm establishing an operation where she can be successful. If I just put her in the middle of the room on her dog bed, I don't even know all of the dogs that are coming into that class yet, that would be a very poor trainer's decision. So I protected her with an x-pen around the dog bed so that she could see everyone and they could see her, she could not get into trouble, and nobody could bother her. But she has the opportunity to learn to raise and lower her arousal state according to whether she is on duty or off duty. That's a really good life challenge that can be built through shaping, which is what I did with this dog. She's an extremely busy dog, and she, her whole life, has wanted all the turns. So for her now to say, OK, I'm back on the dog bed with a bone, and all the other dogs in class are going to be working this, that's tough for her. But you know what? She truly behaved like an old pro. These students, most of them know me, and they know this dog, and they were impressed by what she could do. I think if they didn't know me and I had told them that this is my demo dog and she's been doing this work for a year or so, they would absolutely have believed it. She just did a great job, and it's because she knows how to raise and then lower her arousal state. By the way, we'll start this work in Baby Genius. It's not just all about “Yay, yay, yay, the people are coming.” And I am a person who allows baby dogs to say, “Yay, yay, yay, the people are coming.” I truly allow my baby dogs to be pretty much a happy nuisance around people, because I do err on the side of life happiness and attraction for people and the world in general, like we were talking about earlier. So that means I've got a lot of training to do to get from that as, for example, a 6-month-old to now a 2-and-a-half-year-old who's already my seminar dog. That's a lot of training, but it's all been done through dog's choice training and through good shaping practices. So the end-goal behaviors that I want are broken down very finely into manageable steps for this particular dog, so that now I have a dog who looks fully … she's not fully trained, right? But she looks really good in a crowd when she's working on behaviors that I have built through shaping. So even though she had never been in this crowded an environment all by herself being the only teacher's dog there, she was able to come in and out of demo mode. She was able to raise her arousal state and then lower her arousal state each time she went back in the pen. I know I'm biased, but I don't believe she complained even once. Melissa Breau: That's awesome. Julie Daniels: Yeah, she really had it down about how to behave. I think that's part of shaping good behavior rather than coercing good behavior either through commands and corrections or just through pressure, pressure, pressure. This dog wasn't trained with pressure. When I wanted to demonstrate down on a mat, I just let her out of her little pen and I just — with a flourish, because that's the cue — flourished the mat and laid it out for her, and she ran, not walked, and threw herself down. And so then I told the class — this is true, so you'll learn this too, if you take the class — that she's never been commanded to lie down on the mat. Never. She was shaped. And any of the students who've taken, for example, cookie jar games, we build mat work from scratch. In the fall I'll actually be teaching a class specifically dedicated toward all these targets, including mats and platforms and sit targets and the like. But just to be honest, this dog was a hundred percent shaped to lie down on a mat. She was never coerced. And that down could not be more reliable. Melissa Breau: That's awesome. Julie Daniels: That's the value of shaping. Melissa Breau: Hopefully, students have their wheels turning a little bit and they're trying to decide whether either of these classes is appropriate for their dog. Do you have any advice for those people trying to make their class selection or decide if they should sign up? What's appropriate, what's not appropriate, how should they make those decisions? Julie Daniels: I think if a person has already taken one of the foundation shaping classes that have already been offered, then I think you probably already have the background that I'll be covering in the first three weeks. I'm sure my spin is a little bit different, but the good practices are the good practices, and so you could pretty much move on to another more skills-based class. Baby Genius, as I said, is good for all dogs, but it's extremely foundation-oriented. There's a good deal of background classical conditioning in there, a good deal of operant conditioning in there, a little bit about shaping just because that's the way I do things, but it's more geared toward all the elements of living with humans as a young dog. One wonderful thing that Fenzi does now is put up the sample lectures. I do think that's a wonderful way to get a feel for how a class will be run and what sorts of things the teacher concentrates on. Obviously it's only one little tiny lecture. Baby Genius, for example, has about sixty lectures in it, and I use forty of them in any class, so I try to make the class different every time through, and the Gold level students, I think in any class, cause the class to develop in a different way, so it's never the same class twice. That is definitely the case in Baby Genius, and all dogs are invited to come look at first-level foundation skills. My shaping class is definitely a fundamental shaping class. There's nothing advanced about it. It's the specifics, the basics, and the groundwork of shaping, and my take on it is to put it to use immediately in real-world elements. Melissa Breau: Thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Julie! Julie Daniels: Thanks! Melissa Breau: As per usual, it's been awesome … and thank you to all of our listeners for tuning in! We'll be back next week with Dr. Jessica Hekman to talk about the biology of building a great performance dog, so it should be a good interview. If you haven't already, subscribe to our podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. Credits: Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzi for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty-free by BenSound.com; the track featured here is called “Buddy.” Audio editing provided by Chris Lang.

Summary: Nancy Tucker is a certified pet dog trainer and behavior consultant in Sherbrooke, Quebec. She regularly teaches seminars, webinars, and workshops on dog training, dog behavior, and the business end of training to dog owners, trainers, and veterinary staff in Canada, the U.S., and in Europe. She specializes in common behavior issues that affect the family dog, including more complex issues like aggression and anxiety. Nancy has written numerous articles on dog behavior and is a regular contributor to the Whole Dog Journal. At FDSA, she's offering a great class on separation anxiety and a new class on desensitization and counterconditioning for the April Session. Links Nancy's Website Next Episode:  To be released 3/30/2018, featuring Nancy Tucker to talk about desensitization and counter conditioning. TRANSCRIPTION: Melissa Breau: This is Melissa Breau and you're listening to the Fenzi Dog Sports Podcast brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy, an online school dedicated to providing high-quality instruction for competitive dog sports using only the most current and progressive training methods. Today we'll be talking to Nancy Tucker. Nancy is a certified pet dog trainer and behavior consultant in Sherbrooke, Quebec. She regularly teaches seminars, webinars, and workshops on dog training, dog behavior, and the business end of training to dog owners, trainers, and veterinary staff in Canada, the U.S., and in Europe. She specializes in common behavior issues that affect the family dog, including more complex issues like aggression and anxiety. Nancy has written numerous articles on dog behavior and is a regular contributor to the Whole Dog Journal. At FDSA, she's offering a great class on separation anxiety and a new class on desensitization and counterconditioning for the April Session. Hi Nancy, welcome to the podcast! Nancy Tucker: Hi Melissa, hi everyone, I'm very happy to be here. Melissa Breau: I'm excited to have you here. To get us started out, can you just share a little information about the dog you share your life with and what you're working on with him? Nancy Tucker: Sure. I have a Border Terrier named Bennigan. He's not quite 9 months old yet, but he's creeping up on 9 months, so right now we're working on helping him navigate canine adolescence. That means we're teaching him the basics, with an emphasis on things like impulse control, and good, solid recalls, and trying to remain calm. Melissa Breau: With two classes on the calendar, I want to make sure we get to talk about both of them, but I wanted to start with the shiny new one. You named it “Feelings Change.” What inspired that name? Nancy Tucker: Well, it was catchy, because we're talking about feelings and we're talking about changing feelings. In training, we focus a lot on shaping behavior, and when we're dealing with behavior issues that are rooted in fear, we need to address the emotions that are driving that behavior. Lucky for us, there's a way to zero in on those emotions and help our dogs change how they feel about something, and that's huge. Melissa Breau: I know the core is desensitization and counterconditioning; I mentioned that during the intro. I think anyone who's been in the dog world for a while has probably heard those words thrown about, or at least seen the abbreviations, usually ds/cc, but can you explain what they actually mean? Nancy Tucker: In a nutshell, when we're talking about desensitization, we're describing a process that involves exposing our dog to something they fear, and that's done in a very measured and systematic way. We would start exposing them in a way that is completely non-threatening to them. It doesn't induce any fear at all, and we gradually work our way up from there. That's desensitization. Counterconditioning involves pairing the scary thing with something that elicits a positive emotional response in the dog, so now we're working with building an association. When that's done correctly, we can actually change the dog's emotional response in such a way that he's no longer fearful of the thing that he used to be afraid of. Typically we're aiming for a neutral response, that he's just not afraid of that thing anymore, but if we're lucky, we might even go as far as to create a positive emotional response, which means that he actually now feels good about the trigger that used to scare him. So we're talking about two separate and distinct methods here, desensitization and counterconditioning, but together they complement each other and they're very effective in treating fearful responses. Melissa Breau: Listeners of the podcast have definitely heard us talk before about the idea of creating a positive conditioned emotional response, or a CER. How is that concept, that idea of creating a positive CER, different from what you're talking about with desensitization and counterconditioning? Nancy Tucker: CERs — I'm giggling because now every time I hear the term CER, all I can think about is “ball feelings,” as they're known at Fenzi, thanks to … for those who don't know, that was coined on Hannah Branigan's podcast on CERs. When we're talking about CERs, we're dealing with creating a positive response to something that was previously neutral to the dog. So we're starting from scratch, basically, with a clean slate. When we're talking about desensitization and counterconditioning, we're not starting from scratch. The dog has already formed an association with something, and it's not a good one. To give a visual here, if creating a positive CER is like building a brand new house on a vacant lot, with only brand-new materials, desensitization and counterconditioning is like remodeling an old house. You first need to tear down some things, and you're never quite sure what you're going to find when you start knocking down walls. Anybody who's remodeled a house, I think, can probably relate to that. So maybe you discover you can rebuild a whole new fabulous design on a really solid foundation, or maybe you'll need to make some adjustments and compromises along the way, and build something wonderful but not quite a brand new design. Does that make sense? Melissa Breau: Absolutely. I love that analogy. That's fantastic — the idea of building from scratch versus remodeling. And for listeners who aren't Hannah fans, Hannah's podcast is “Drinking From The Toilet,” and I will try and find the specific episode that Nancy's talking about to include a link to it in the show notes. To get back to our conversation, the general concept sounds simple enough — the idea that we want to build this positive association — but I know a lot of people really struggle to do this stuff well. What are some of the common pitfalls that lead folks to struggle and to be unsuccessful? Nancy Tucker: The reason that I want to teach this course in the first place is because of these common pitfalls. The course focuses on the skills and mechanics that we need to have in order to be successful at desensitization and counterconditioning. There are natural laws at play here that we just can't get around. Things need to happen in a very specific way in order to work. We can't cut corners, and we can't speed up the process, and honestly, that's something that we're all guilty of when we're training our dogs. We can be really impatient, and we try to skip a few steps to reach our goal just a little bit faster. Sometimes we're lucky and our dog figures things out on his own, so hurrying up ends up being very reinforcing for us because it worked, so we do it over and over, again and again. But, when we're treating fears, that's just something we can't do, and understanding the process better and practicing our own mechanical skills is the best thing that we can do to finally be able to help our dogs overcome their fear. And it's actually a very rewarding process. Melissa Breau: Can you share a little more about the class? How you approach teaching this to your human learners to help them go through that process with their canine partners? Nancy Tucker: At the start of the class we'll all be on the same page, so we'll all be practicing the same set of skills, regardless of everyone's individual training experience. And you don't need training experience to do this class. It's quite an eye-opener. Once you start to really break down your own mechanical skills — and naturally this is a Fenzi class, so everything is done in the spirit of positivity and support, and there's no judgment — so there will be nitpicking, for sure, there'll be a lot of analyzing mechanics, but it's not about judgment. It's about helping to perfect these skills. So a lot of nitpicking, but in a very good way. The students' skills will grow from this experience, and they'll be able to transfer these skills to their other training projects as well. So at first we'll be making sure everyone fully understands the process and practices their mechanical skills, and then we'll tackle some actual issues. Students will be able to work on changing their dogs' fearful response to something. Melissa Breau: I know the other class you're teaching in April is on separation anxiety. How is separation anxiety different from what we're talking about here – from general desensitization and counterconditioning – and how does that lead to how you treat it? Nancy Tucker: Treating separation anxiety definitely involves desensitization, and a lot of it, in fact. It's the meat of the program. Desensitization is the meat of any program to treat separation anxiety. We very slowly and very gradually expose the dog to the thing that he fears the most, which is being alone or being separated from a particular family member. We make sure the dog only experiences being alone for however amount of time he can handle without experiencing fear or distress. That can be a very time-consuming process, so again, this is one of those things that we can't rush and we can't cut corners. But along with some environmental management, desensitization is really the most effective way to treat separation anxiety. Melissa Breau: I think a lot of the time when people talk about separation anxiety, they are actually talking about a few different things. It's not necessarily one of those terms that has a hard and fast definition in common use. Do you mind sharing what separation anxiety is — your definition — and what some of the symptoms are of true separation anxiety? Nancy Tucker: We tend to use separation anxiety as an umbrella term for what are essentially a few different issues, so most of the time, we're using it incorrectly. But it's so widespread as a label for a common problem that it's easier to use it. I know that's not correct, it's not scientifically correct, but sometimes when everyone misuses a term the same way, it's just as effective to use the term, if that makes any sense. In truth, what most people are dealing with when they say that their dog has separation anxiety is a dog who fears being alone. That is more common than actual separation anxiety. He fears isolation and he panics when he's left alone. True separation anxiety is when a dog experiences distress if he's apart from a particular person or persons. A dog who suffers from fear of isolation will be fine as long as someone, anyone, is with him. A dog who suffers from separation anxiety will experience distress even if someone else is there with him, if that makes sense. Some of the telltale signs that a dog is experiencing distress during your absence, if you're listening to this and you suspect that your dog may be suffering from this, some of these signs — and what I'm about to mention is in no particular order of importance here, and the dog might display one or several of these behaviors, and at different intensities … and before I go into describing what these symptoms might be, I want to point out, too, that the level of intensity of a symptom does not correlate to the level of severeness of the fear. If a dog overtly displays symptoms, it doesn't mean that he is more fearful than the dog who cowers in the corner and does not move all day. That dog could be equally as in distress. Anyway, some of the signs are vocalization, barking, whining. Actually, that's how quite a few people learn that there is a problem is when their neighbor complains about barking during their absence. That's often the first clue. They don't know until somebody complains about it. So vocalization is one. Excessive drooling is another. You might come home and find a puddle of drool that some people might mistake for pee, but it's actually drool. There can be that much of it on the floor, or the dog's bed is soaking wet. Anorexia is a very common one as well. The dog won't touch his food or a treat toy. Sometimes I discover a problem when a client has called me for another issue. When I'm doing my history intake, I ask them how often the dog eats, or when is he fed, and they say, “We feed him in the morning before we go to work, but he doesn't touch that. He's not hungry in the morning. He doesn't eat until we get home.” And I find out that when they get home, the dog devours his food. That's a sign to me, if the dog hasn't touched his food all day from the moment that they leave, that there may be an issue there, that he might not appreciate being alone and there could be a problem there. So anorexia. Obvious signs that the dog has scratched or chewed an area, especially near an exit, near the door that the owner uses to leave the house. Peeing and defecating, usually a lot of it during their absence, even just a short absence. And self-mutilation, signs of excessive licking or chewing at the paws. If you're not sure what your dog might be doing when you're not home, set up a camera and video him, or watch a live feed. There's lots of apps now that we can use to keep an eye on our dogs. Some dogs might pace while you're getting ready to leave. They're pacing and then they continue for another five minutes after you're gone, but then they settle down quickly and they go to sleep without a problem. Or, on the other hand, some dogs might appear perfectly chill for a few minutes after you leave, and then they begin to panic. So you can't know unless you record it or watch a live feed. Melissa Breau: Right. And technology is our friend, for sure. Nancy Tucker: For sure. Melissa Breau: Do we know what actually causes separation anxiety? It seems like some dogs struggle with it and others are never fazed at all. Is there a reason? Nancy Tucker: That's a really, really good question, and I'll start by talking about what doesn't cause separation anxiety. Owners. Owners' behavior does not cause their dog to develop separation anxiety. If you have a dog who panics when left alone, it is not your fault. It's not because of something that you did. It's amazing how many people feel, or are told, that it's because of something that they did. It is not because you've spoiled him. In fact, if you have a puppy, helping him feel secure by responding to his needs will go farther towards building a confident adult dog than if you try to use tough love by letting him cry it out at night. Don't be afraid to shower your puppy with attention and to provide that sense of security. You do need to teach your young dog that being alone is nothing to be afraid of, but you can do that systematically. Back to causes. For starters, dogs who suffer from this problem, they tend to already be predisposed to having anxiety issues. Just like people, some of us might be more genetically predisposed to experience mental health issues, and this is true for dogs as well. It is worth mentioning that there is correlation between a few things in separation anxiety, but it can't be said for sure that these things actually cause it. For example, dogs who are surrendered to a shelter might display some isolation distress once they're adopted into a new home. Actually, that's pretty common. But it's possible that these dogs had this issue in their previous homes, and maybe that's the reason that some of them were surrendered in the first place. It's not always easy to tell. So it's not always accurate to say that a dog develops a fear of isolation because he was surrendered to a shelter or abandoned somewhere. Another possible correlation is dogs who are sick as very, very young puppies might develop separation anxiety as adults. And again, there's correlation there, but nothing to say that this is a cause. What I see most commonly is after a major change in a dog's life, like a move or a major disruption, a divorce, or a huge disruption in a dog's routine or schedule, that can lead to this type of problem. But again, in most cases we're talking about a dog who is already predisposed to experiencing anxiety. So it's not ultimately because you moved into a new house that you caused your dog to develop this problem. Rather, the move may have triggered an anxiety disorder that was already there but hadn't yet manifested into a behavior issue, if that makes sense. Melissa Breau: Absolutely. It's really interesting. I hadn't realized there were those specific things that were correlated with the issue. That's news to me, so it's interesting. I know you're not a vet, but I know that on the syllabus or in the description you mention that you do touch on meds in the class. I was curious if you'd talk about that a little bit. How do you determine if a student should talk to their vet about their options? Nancy Tucker: I really respect my limitations as a trainer and a behavior consultant, and I avoid talking about meds, except to say that everyone should do their own research and find out what's available to you to help your dog deal with an anxiety issue, and there are quite a few options out there. So if your dog is at risk of hurting himself — self-mutilation, or a dog who is scratching or throwing himself through glass, which I experienced that myself, a dog who is simply overwhelmed with fear or anxiety in general — I strongly urge you to look into medication to help him out. I will say this much: medication can be a huge help. It can create a sense of calm in a dog so that he's able to learn the new behaviors that you want to teach him. It puts him in a better state of mind to learn and for behavior modification to take place. A lot of the antidepressants and anti-anxiety meds out there, they will allow for learning to take place, so in other words, they aren't simply a sedative that can affect short-term memory. So that would be an important thing to discuss with the vet. If you're looking for medication to help your dog deal with anxiety or immense fear, you want to use a medication that will allow him to learn. The whole point of using medication to treat separation anxiety is to be able to work through a desensitization program so that the dog can eventually be comfortable alone at home. Melissa Breau: Right. You mention in the class description that, when done right, Gold videos in this class may be sort of … boring, I think is the word you used. Why is that? Nancy Tucker: This is true. This is very true. There isn't a whole lot of action going on when you're teaching a dog to remain calm. Videos are good, and I can still help guide students by watching what's happening in a video. I can dissect the dog's behavior and body language, and I can make recommendations based on the layout of the home, because we talk a lot about finding that home alone space, and sometimes it's good to have a second set of eyes to look at the layout and see what might work, or even based on the student's own movements. So video is good. I might see something in the environment that the student has missed. Sometimes you're just so familiar with something that even when it's right in front of you, you don't see it. But the bottom line is that we are literally aiming for the dog to look bored and chillaxed. So Gold students don't have to post video, actually, but that's OK, because we tend to do a lot of problem-solving and creative planning and troubleshooting on the forums through discussions. During this class the discussion boards are really important. If you want to follow a case, follow the discussion, because even without a video there is a lot of back and forth and a lot of troubleshooting going on. The Gold-level students are still getting a personal coach as they work through this, and because every single case is completely different, all students get to follow and learn from each individual scenario, which is great. In the last couple of sessions we had a lot of trainers join, so I think they benefitted from seeing the different types of cases. Melissa Breau: There's certainly nothing to sneeze at there about taking a Gold spot just because videos don't play a big role. In an area like this, where there's so often those feelings of, “Oh my god, am I doing it wrong?” or “Oh my god, my dog's panicking,” having somebody to hold your hand and say, “No, actually, it's OK, let's take a step back, let's do it this way,” that can be a huge, huge help. Nancy Tucker: Absolutely. It's great to have a second set of eyes with a problem like this, for sure. Melissa Breau: I wanted to ask about common misconceptions or places where students often go wrong when it comes to working on this kind of thing — separation anxiety, that is. Can you share any tips or suggestions? Nancy Tucker: I think that we tend to circle back to the most common problem of all when treating a behavior issue that's based on an emotion like fear, and I mentioned it earlier: we move too fast. We try to rush things. Sometimes I get the feeling that the students somehow feel bad that they don't have more to show, that they feel they need to push it along in order to look like they're progressing. But that's OK, because I know that behavior change takes time, and I am far more giddy about seeing a student take their time and really progress at the dog's speed, whatever that may be for that dog. When I see that, I know that the student is on the right track and they'll get there eventually. So again, the common problem is just moving too fast. Melissa Breau: If students are trying to decide whether either of these classes is appropriate for their dog, I wanted to ask if you have any advice. How can they decide if their dog is a good candidate? Nancy Tucker: Now might be a good time for me to mention that the desensitization and counterconditioning class is not for those dogs who might display aggression towards the thing that they fear. For example, if a dog might bite a visitor entering his home because he's afraid of strangers, this class is not the place for that kind of issue. That's because I would much rather deal with aggression in person. Other than that, what I'd like to see are students working on minor issues throughout the term, throughout the session. I'll bet almost everyone can name at least one or two things their dog is afraid of. Students might think that their dog doesn't like something because he avoids it, but really their dog might be afraid of that thing, and this class would be a perfect opportunity to work on that. They'll get to practice their training mechanics on a minor issue, like a dog avoiding the vacuum cleaner, for example, or getting brushed, or getting their nails clipped. Then they'll be in a better position to handle a bigger issue later on, like aggressive behaviors that are fear-based, for example. Another important point about the desensitization and counterconditioning class is that whatever trigger the students choose, they need to make sure that they have complete control over their dog's access to that trigger while they work on it. In other words, if you plan to help your dog overcome his fear of the sound of kids playing and screaming on the street, you need to make sure you can control when and how your dog hears that sound. You can see how that can be really, really difficult. We can't control when the kids are going to be out playing, but we can maybe try to control the dog's access to that, to manage the environment or something creatively so that he's not exposed to that. That's just an example. The point that I'm trying to make is that we need to have complete control over that stimulus in order to work through the program, because the only way that desensitization and counterconditioning will work is if we're able to exercise that kind of control over the stimulus. As for the Home Alone class, you don't actually need to have a dog with a separation anxiety issue to take the class. Like I mentioned before, over the last couple of sessions we had lots of trainers take the class who wanted to learn more about helping their clients. It's also a good match for people with puppies who want to teach their dog to be alone in a structured way. In fact, a lot of the lecture videos are of my own dog, Bennigan, when he was just a puppy learning to be home alone. Melissa Breau: I did want to dive in a little deeper there , if you don't mind, and ask if there are any examples that come to mind of students with problems that would be a particularly good fit for the desensitization and counterconditioning class. Are there particular problems that you're hoping to get, or that you think might be particularly well suited for that kind of class? Nancy Tucker: Like I said, the two main criteria are that is not an aggression issue in that there is no danger that the dog will bite, so a dog who is extremely … I don't like to use the term “reactive” because it doesn't really describe what's happening, but a dog who might behave aggressively or lunge and bark at the sight of another dog — this is not a good class for that. I believe that Amy Cook has a good class for that. This is not a good class for that because I personally don't want to be dealing with aggression, except maybe resource guarding. If a dog is displaying object guarding and does not have a bite history, that is something that we might be able to handle, but again, I would rather speak with a student first and have them communicate with me to see exactly what's happening, because that might not be fear-based, and when we're talking about desensitization and counterconditioning, I think that what we're aiming for here is to help a dog overcome a fear. So no outright aggression, and to have control over the stimulus. That is the one thing that is an absolute must. So to answer your question, no, there is no specific thing that's carte blanche, and if students are unsure, they can just communicate with me and we can figure it out together. Melissa Breau: Excellent. I know that your class descriptions mentioned something about CEUs. Do you mind sharing with listeners — and I'm sure there are some ears that just perked up there who may be trainers trying to get those Continuing Education credits — what the deal is there? Nancy Tucker: Both classes are approved for 21 CEUs for training for those who are certified with a CCPDT. I specified “for training,” because with the CCPDT — the Certification Council For Professional Dog Trainers — there are training credits and there are behavior credits. These are 21 training CEUs for each class. Students can register at any level, whether it's Gold, Silver, or Bronze, and throughout the term they'll need to collect some code words that will be peppered throughout the lectures and the Gold discussion forums. So they have to follow and pay close attention to the course as it progresses, the lectures and discussion forums. And hey, 21 CEUs is almost two-thirds of a full recertification, so that's not a bad deal. If you take both classes, you get 42 CEUs right there. Melissa Breau: That's awesome. That's really a fantastic opportunity for those people who are out there trying to get those. Thanks so much for coming back on the podcast, Nancy! It's great to chat. Nancy Tucker: Thanks for having me, Melissa. Always a pleasure. Melissa Breau: Absolutely. And thank you to all of our wonderful listeners for tuning in! We'll be back next week with Julie Daniels to discuss confidence-building through shaping. If you haven't already, subscribe to our podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. Credits: Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzi for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty-free by BenSound.com; the track featured here is called “Buddy.” Audio editing provided by Chris Lang.  

SHOW NOTES: Summary:   Kamal Fernandez is an internationally renowned dog trainer and seminar instructor, Championship Obedience Judge, Crufts competitor, and the head trainer and owner of East London Dog Training. He has over 25 years of practical dog-training experience, based on a combination of science and hands-on work that have led him to establish a reputation for positive training and to champion reward-based methods all over the world. Kamal has made a study of psychology and began his career as a police officer working with young offenders. This has shaped his training philosophy and helped him craft a style that gets the best from his students — human and canine alike. He's probably most well known for teaching heelwork, his primary focus at FDSA, but he's successfully used rewards-based methods in a wide variety of dog sports, including obedience, agility, protection sports, and canine freestyle. His training specialty revolves around using play and games to create motivation and control. Links kamalfernandez.blog Sports Addict blog post (mentioned during the podcast) Next Episode:  To be released 3/2/2018, featuring Esther Zimmerman, to talk competitive obedience and dog sports in general. TRANSCRIPTION: Melissa Breau: This is Melissa Breau and you're listening to the Fenzi Dog Sports Podcast brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy, an online school dedicated to providing high-quality instruction for competitive dog sports using only the most current and progressive training methods. Today we'll be talking to Kamal Fernandez. Kamal is an internationally renowned dog trainer and seminar instructor, Championship Obedience Judge, Crufts competitor, and the head trainer and owner of East London Dog Training. He has over 25 years of practical dog-training experience, based on a combination of science and hands-on work that have led him to establish a reputation for positive training and to champion reward-based methods all over the world. Kamal has made a study of psychology and began his career as a police officer working with young offenders. This has shaped his training philosophy and helped him craft a style that gets the best from his students — human and canine alike. He's probably most well known for teaching heelwork, his primary focus at FDSA, but he's successfully used rewards-based methods in a wide variety of dog sports, including obedience, agility, protection sports, and canine freestyle. His training specialty revolves around using play and games to create motivation and control. Hi Kamal, welcome back to the podcast! Kamal Fernandez: Hi Melissa, thank you for having me back. I'm grateful, I should say, to be here. Melissa Breau: I'm excited. To start us out, do you want to refresh our memories a little bit by reminding us who the dogs are that you share your life with and what you do with them? Kamal Fernandez: Yeah, absolutely. I'm happy to do so. I own eight dogs — that's a lot of dogs — and several breeds. My oldest dog is a Malinois called Thriller, and she does obedience along with my oldest Border Collie, Scooter, and they're both 10 years old. After them comes a German Spitz called Sonic, and he does agility. He is 7 or 8 years old. I got him when he was a little dog, so I always lose track of their date of birth when I've got them a little bit older. After that is Punch and Fire. Punch is my boxer who I'm currently training to do OPI, hopefully, which is a protection sport, and Fire, my Border Collie, who I do agility with, followed by Super, who is my Border Collie, he's 3 years old. I'm contemplating at the moment doing tracking with him. And then I have Super and Fire's daughter, Mighty, who is my young Border Collie. She is 18 months old, and I'm undecided again about what I'm going to do with her. And then finally my little crossbreed, Sugarpuff, who really is just a very content lap dog. So a lot of dogs. Melissa Breau: I love that at the end of all these working dogs you have a lap dog, which is perfect. Kamal Fernandez: Well, she was meant to be my girlfriend's dog, but she is really just a family pet, she's an absolute little puppet. She's a dog that we got that we rehomed, and she's an absolute joy in every sense. She's just the perfect family pet, so you know what? She can do what she likes, and she gets away with blue murder. Melissa Breau: To dive into things, I did a little bit of reading before putting together the questions. I got caught up on your blog. For those of you who don't know, Kamal writes a blog at kamalfernandez.blog. If you Google his name, it does come up. Anyway, you recently wrote a post about why you choose to compete in dog sports, and you shared that you're under no illusions, that dog sports aren't really about your dogs, they're not sitting around dying for a chance to compete. So can you share some of that here? Why do you compete in dog sports? Kamal Fernandez: Absolutely. I'm happy to do so. As the blog said, I'm under no illusions — competing in dog sports is very much for my ego and my benefit. My dogs love the interaction, they love the training, but to actually put them in my vehicle, drive to Timbuktu, get them out, and ask them to perform at a dog show or a dog trial, or an agility competition is very, very much about my ego. So for me that dictates the reason why I train my dogs, sorry, the manner in which I train my dogs, which is using reinforcement, because, as I say, it's for my ego, the least I can do is sell it to them in a way that's beneficial to them. Now the flipside to that is I have dogs that definitely need a vocation. They're high-drive dogs, they're dogs with a lot of energy, and they're dogs that on paper you would say would have definitely behavioral issues if it wasn't channeled, so I train them because it appeases that part of their personality, but I could just as easily go to my local park, or train at a village hall, or any location, and do exactly what I do with them, and that would appease that need. So the reason for which I compete is because, one, I'm going to be truthful: it's for my ego. I'm a competitive person. I like to push myself as a trainer to see if I can train my dogs to the standard where it's better than my peers. I think that challenge keeps my training fresh, it keeps me innovative, and it also gives me a standard to aspire to. It would be very easy with a certain type of dog that I own, certainly, to manage their behavior and not deal with it if the dog had a dog aggression issue, or was reactive, or was chase motivated — or chase orientated, I should say — it would be very easy to stay in my life and manage their behavior. But going to competition a lot forces me, as the trainer, to have to deal with some of those issues, and as a byproduct of that it actually creates a dog that is able to function in society with great ease. My dogs, I can take anywhere. I can take them to High Street if I'm having a cup of coffee, I could take them to a public place and they would be well-mannered and they would have good social skills. Taking them to competitions forces my hand to have to deal with that stuff. I have to socialize them, I have to teach them self-control, I have to teach them impulse control, I have to teach them to be focused on me and ignore other dogs or fast-moving things. So from a behavioral point of view I actually benefit from having to take them to those environments because I have to deal with the things I could quite easily manage and deal with in other ways. So that's part of the thing. The other thing is that, for me, I train dogs because it's an extension of my relationship, and being amongst other people that have a similar ethos is you accrue — I wrote a blog today about villages — you acquire people who support you in the journey in which you choose to tread. That is not only in the manner in which I train my dogs, but also showing what can be achieved by this methodology and this approach to dog training. So certainly for dog sports, which is largely … the majority of dog sports have, with the exception of, I'd say, agility and heelworks freestyle, those are sports that are relatively new in comparison to, say, bite work and protection work and IPO and obedience, there's less bias toward more traditional and sometimes compulsive methods. I think the way we would change people's perception of how to train dogs is to get out there and show and illustrate to people what can be achieved, not just at a more local level but at the highest level of all sports, so nationally and even world championship level. I've had students that have gone to the world championships with dogs that have been trained positively in a sport that is primarily … for example, it was IPO, which is a sport which largely still has a lot of compulsion within it, so that was a huge thing to illustrate what could be achieved by reinforcement-based methodology, and I think if we are going to change the way in which people perceive how to train dogs, then we need to be out there and be almost ambassadors for that change. Melissa Breau: A lot of people tend to wind up at a competition for the first time before they or their dogs are really ready, often without realizing how unprepared they actually are. If you could talk a little bit about how you officially decide when to begin trialing a dog when they have those skills and you feel they're ready to go to a real competition. Kamal Fernandez: I do a lot of preparation for my dogs, and my actual goal whenever I get a dog is to create a well-adjusted family pet. That's my agenda, because I know by putting in the layers of creating a well-adjusted family pet, I'm going to get a great competition dog. I was in a situation where, with one of my dogs, his career in dog sports was a little bit in jeopardy. He had a major injury, and I wasn't sure if the dog would be able to recover from that injury to be able to ever compete, and I was faced with the prospect of having this dog and he would have to be just a family pet. Well, if I got the dog with the primary intention of competing him, I would have been focused on, say, drive building and bite work when he wouldn't have been a nice dog to own. But because my agenda was to first and foremost make him a great family pet, it was neither here nor there. So the process of creating a dog that's great at competitions is about establishing things like focus, a great recall, getting them to be socially acceptable to work on their temperament. Don't get me wrong — I don't have dogs that are all of that ilk. I have rescue dogs, I have rehomed dogs, I have breeds of dogs that are predisposed to having aggression, chase drive, reactivity issues, and as part of dog training, and as part of preparing them for competition, I have to create a dog that's stable in those environments, so I'm a great believer in training beyond the requirements of competition, so I do a lot of generalizing with my dogs. I take them to weird and wonderful places to get them confident in those environments, I teach them to cope with all the things they're going to encounter in competition, and that is other dogs, other people, motion, distractions, tense, flapping things, things like the head, etcetera. All that stuff's done first and foremost. It would be great to have a dog with a baseline temperament that I could get away with not having to do that work, but the type of dogs I have — and I don't just have one type of breed of dog. I don't have dogs all that are from specific working lines. I have rescue dogs, I have rehomed dogs, I have dogs of unusual breeds, and my first goal is to get that dog comfortable in all environments. That in itself can take time and patience and dedication. And then, from that, I am obviously building behaviors like focus, simple behaviors like sit, down, stand, train them to focus on me, work on their domestic recall. By doing all that I create the basis of a dog that can cope with competition, so that's my primary objective initially. Once I've done that, training the dog to do the specifics needed for competition — actually here's the ironic thing — is actually really, really easy. It's easy  to teach a dog to pick up a dumbbell and come back, if you've done all those preliminaries. So, for example, if I've created lots of focus for me via using the medium of play, I know it's going to be easy to teach my dog to bring a retrieved article back. I know that it's going to teach my dog to be a great agility dog, or have agility skills, if my dog has the ability to ignore distractions. For example, all that would transfer to me walking down the local... the street and the dog ignoring distraction. The whole thing — it's a holistic way in which I engage with my dogs. So it's all about preparation. We used to have a phrase when I was a police officer: “Lack of preparation is preparing to fail, and failure to prepare makes an ass out of you and me.” If you don't put the work into preparing your dogs — and that is not only the dog trainer, that's the you training. That's looking at yourself, that's looking at your mental game, that's looking at your confidence level, that's the whole picture. As a sports dog coach, my agenda, my goal, is to create the team — and I use that word specifically, the team — both the dog and handler that can cope with the rigors and challenges faced within dog sports. Melissa Breau: You said in there you take them to lots of weird and wonderful places. I love that turn of phrase. That just rolls off the tongue really neat. I was hoping that you might be willing to dive a little bit deeper into your process of preparing for that first competition. Can you just share a little bit about how you go about that? Kamal Fernandez: The first thing is I create a lot of focus to me, and that's done … I work a lot on my dog's recall domestically, I take them to lots of environments, and I do the socializing process with other people and dogs, etcetera. But the main thing that I'm aspiring to create with my dog is largely indifferent to things. I don't want my dog to be overly focused with dogs. I don't want it to be overly focused with people. I would like them to be indifferent, like, “Yeah, people, dogs, I'm certainly not stressed by them, I'm certainly not excited by them, I'm largely indifferent.” How I do that is I'm very diligent about how, and aware about how, I socialize my dogs. I ensure that … even socialization, it's a process. It's strategic. I choose the dogs that my dogs will mix with. I choose the people that my dogs will mix with. Obviously, as a professional dog trainer, I'm able to do that, but even my domestic clients who have no interest in doing dog sports specifically, we discuss the need to be vigilant with how you socialize and engage your dogs with the world. So I'll identify if the dog has any issues with his baseline temperament, because not all dogs are predisposed to coping with those things. That's my first thing. I need to see what I've got. And then. if the dog lacks confidence, or is nervous, or apprehensive, or fearful, I first do work to create a dog that's confident and well-adjusted in all environments. Then I work on basic skills. I work on my foundation, and this is something that I would say most people underestimate: the need to teach foundation. It's called foundation because that is where you are laying your basis for which your house, your building, your tower of dog training is going to be placed. If your space isn't solid and secure and well grounded, your house will inevitably fall down. And that is having a dog that has great skills in relation to toys. So I teach distinct skills, that is, my dog to tug a toy, my dog to bring the toy back at speed, my dog to release the toy on cue, my dog to drive to a dead toy on the ground, and my dog to chase a moving toy. I do those in relation to play, and I teach distinct marker words, which I blatantly took from another Fenzi dog instructor, Shade, whose concept of introducing marker words is absolutely fantastic, and I believe other trainers in Europe use a similar principal. So I teach all that first and in relation to toys. Parallel to that, I work skills in relation to food, and I also get my dog shaping behavior and understanding to offer behavior. I lay all that foundation before I teach a specific exercise. The reason I do that is because now I have the mechanical skills, and the dog has the skills, to be able to train the dog effectively and efficiently for that specific behavior. For example, if I need to teach a behavior that requires distance, a great way to reward the dog would be to throw the toy to the dog. If my dog doesn't pursue a moving toy and then bring it back to hand and doesn't release it, I now have to come up with an alternative solution. I would have to either go to the dog or I would have to use food, which might not be appropriate in the environment, or might reduce drive, but I'm having to compromise the A-1 means of reinforcement for that dog. So for me, it's all about laying foundations, and a really good example is my youngest dog, Mighty. Mighty was born and she coincided with the birth of my daughter, and obviously my priorities for dog training was very much about putting that on the backburner, so she largely was left to pasture, so to speak. I worked on social skills, I took her out on her own and I did recalls and stuff, but she had no training for any dog sport specific behavior at all. I didn't teach heeling, I didn't teach retrieves, I didn't teach any of that stuff.  I didn't do a foundation for agility. I did nothing. But what I did do was teach her skills in relation to toys, food, shaping, etcetera. I did five-minute sessions with her whenever I could, and her training was very sporadic. Her siblings were trained and didn't have that issue and they obviously … it was very much a toss, and they raced off and they're doing amazing things by a year old. The irony is that now they're 18 months old, I probably caught up with every single one of her siblings because she had a great foundation, so what they were fastidiously working at, and that's not a criticism of them, it's just that all I did was work from foundation. I worked on her being able to be focused with me, I worked on her understanding to pick up a toy, let it go, bring it back to me, etcetera. Now I can move her through her training relatively quickly, and she's caught up or most certainly is fast catching up with her siblings on what she can do, and that's all about having a great foundation. I think that most people, they desperately want to move on to the sexy stuff, the fun stuff, the stuff that looks like real dog sports, and just working on being able to give your dog a treat without the dog taking your hand off is something that people go, ‘Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll do that later on,” and yet they miss the importance of being able to deliver reinforcement effectively, and that's really where I would urge people to place their emphasis and their attention and their training time. Melissa Breau: Because it makes everything else so much easier, right? Kamal Fernandez: Absolutely, yes. Melissa Breau: You mentioned a little bit, you were talking about how you evaluate dogs and their tendencies, and I know that some of your dogs came to you with what people might consider “issues,” for lack of a better term. You mentioned last time you were on the podcast that you actually really enjoy working with behavioral cases, so I wanted to ask you a little bit about how you decide what a particular dog's tendencies are and how those impact what you focus on in your training, or even what sports you might do with that particular dog. Kamal Fernandez: I would get a dog with some idea of what I would like to do with that dog. But if I could, I could pick a dog from a certain line or lineage or temperament that's going to be best suited for a vocation. However, I've had dogs that I literally saw, for example, my Border Collie, Scooter, and my German Spitz. I literally saw them … one was online, I saw a picture of him, I rang up the breeder, and I think I got him with no knowledge of anything about him, his history. I made the decision that I wanted a little small dog, I was Googling, he came up, and that was about as complicated as it got. With my Border Collie, Scooter, I'd lost two dogs very young and I was frantically looking for another dog. At the time there was no puppies for some reason at least that's how it came across, all litters had all gone, the time was wrong, and I saw him in a magazine, looking for a home, and I went and got him with no history. I had intentions of what I'd like to do with that dog. I was going to do tracking, but he had a reoccurring physical injury, which meant that he couldn't do that. So in his situation I was forced to change what I do with him, and the irony is that he was a brilliant, brilliant tracking dog. He just had a natural aptitude toward it, but he couldn't jump because of this particular reoccurring injury. In that instance it wasn't so much his temperament that dictated it, it was physicality, so that was what dictated the way the sport I did with him. But temperament's a massive thing. If the dog has an aptitude for something and the dog gets joy from that, why not investigate that as a chosen career or sport for that dog, because I'm a great believer in doing what your dog loves, and finding what your dog loves, and manipulate it to get what you want from the dog. If my dog has a particular tendency towards, say, for example, chase drive, the obvious sport I'm going to pick for them may be something like agility or something that is motion driven. You have to appease what the dog is naturally. You have to give the dog what its baseline requirements are. If I have a dog that likes to run in some way, shape, or form in its life, I need to almost appease that part of its personality. Same if I have a dog that likes to hunt, I'm going to do something with it that appeases that part of its personality. That doesn't mean I might compete with it, but in its daily life I'm going to do something that satisfies them. I greatly, genuinely believe that creates a dog that is content and happy because they don't have that sort of frustration of not having that part of their temperament or what is hardwired into them genetically not satisfied. Does that make sense? Melissa Breau: Absolutely. I think that's super-important. A lot of people get a dog that was bred for a job and they don't always think about how that should influence, or does influence, what they should do on a daily basis. So I think that's an interesting point. Kamal Fernandez: Absolutely. A lot of the behavioral cases I work with, it's because they get a dog that happens to be from a certain breed that is predisposed to work. They need a task. That doesn't mean that I would say you need to do a dog sport with this dog, but you do need to do something that appeases that part of their characteristics. Like a cocker spaniel — play some search games with it, throw a ball in long grass, teach it to go finding things, do some fun scent work in your living room. Something that just checks the box of hunting in that dog's DNA, as it were. It's the same for … if I had a dog that was predisposed to running, or liked to chase, I would channel that chasing onto me via recall so that my dog didn't then externalize that in a negative way and therefore become reactive, become the dog that chases traffic, becomes the dog that obsesses with shadow, etcetera. Melissa Breau: Did you pull out the cocker spaniel example because you know that I have a 9-month-old English cocker puppy? Kamal Fernandez: Absolutely. Got to love a cocker puppy. Melissa Breau: I know you've been doing some writing lately about the term leadership, and how you've struggled a bit with the term because of how strongly it's associated with dominance theory, so I wanted to ask you a little about that. What got you started thinking about the concept? Kamal Fernandez: I've been dog training for a little while now, and I've seen a real journey from how we used to train dogs and how we viewed dogs, and even from a social setting, to how we see them now, and I would say the pendulum has swung from one extreme to another and that we've gone from the use of compulsion was very much accepted and the norm. Just to give you an example, the first day I went to dog training with my little crossbreed, I was 8 or 9 years old, I was taught how to put a choke chain on her, and we walked around the hall for the whole 45 minutes and we did recalls, we did all these exercises, which now I look back and I shudder of all the things that were wrong with that situation and what is best dog training. Now don't get me wrong — the intentions of the people were genuine and they were heartfelt and they believed — like Maya Angelou says, when we know better, we do better — they believed what they did was correct. But that opinion and viewpoint has largely changed into more positive-reinforcement-based. We've had more studies completed about dogs and dogs' behavior and how behavior is viewed, and how the interpersonal relationship with dogs isn't about them plotting up at night thinking about how, I mean, now Sugar's sitting on my bed. I can't for one minute think that I have to sleep with one eye open in the risk of her taking over the world, so to speak. We've made peace with that. We know that that isn't the case. But we've become almost reluctant to give our dogs leadership, and to give them direction, and to say to them, “It's OK, it's fine, you're going to be OK,” or to say to them, “That's not acceptable behavior. That is acceptable behavior. That's what I'd like for you to do.” I spoke at a conference, talking about the dirty words in dog training and the concept of saying no, not as in I'm literally saying no, but laying boundaries for my dog and having lines drawn in the sand about what is acceptable and what is not acceptable behavior. I believe there's a lot of guilt in dog training. I think that we have a real issue of guilt about how we treat these amazing animals who have forgiven us for poor communication, misunderstanding, and really, really inadequate training, and we're overcompensating in that there's a train of thought about not to put your dog in a collar, that head collars are aversive, which you could argue aversive that they are, that any sort of stress or frustration to your dog is to be avoided at all costs. It's not even a balance. It's not even a balance, because my life is very much in the realm of reinforcement and positive dog training, and I absolutely, absolutely believe in its power and its potency. The way in which I approach dog training isn't just about dog training. It's about the way in which I lead my life. I believe in being positive, positive energy, putting positivity out there. The parallel I use is, as a new parent, my role for my daughter is to give her direction, is to give her leadership, and to give her confidence, and that's the greatest gift I can give her, in my opinion. If I can give her confidence and self-belief, for me, you can give a child no greater gift. That stems from sometimes it's going to be saying to her, “That's not appropriate. You can't speak to people like that. That's amazing. That's fantastic. We're super-proud of you.” I consider myself somebody that leads by example in a professional sense and also a personal sense, and I have no qualms with talking about the concept of leadership. My dogs require leadership. I've had dogs like my Spitz — he was incredibly fearful, incredibly nervous with people and dogs and life. The way in which I built his confidence up was to give him light leadership and teach him, “It's fine, the flappy thing's not going to hurt you. This person's not going to come near you. I will look after you. I will be there. I'll support you.” I never forced him, I never grabbed him and said, “You're going to put up with the thing that scares you most.” I was always the person that gave him confidence, and I fed that through to him with my interactions and my presence and the way I dealt with him. We have become dubious about talking about leadership because I think that it has connotations with dominance-based theories to dog training, in which it was all about being the alpha, and being stronger and bigger, and we know that's been dispelled. I have no negative connotations about leadership, and I have no negative connotations about being a leader to my dogs and giving them confidence. I hope that people realize — and I stress this — that leaders don't oppress. Leaders inspire. They cause you to want to do better. I look at the people that I consider as leaders in the public eye, and I look to them and I think they inspire you to do better. They show you what can be achieved by greatness, or what greatness looks like, and for me, I use that parallel with my dog training. Melissa Breau: There are a couple of things in there, and one it sounds like partially what you're talking about leadership as the idea that positive isn't permissive, that it doesn't mean we have to take whatever our dogs do. It also seems there's this bigger idea of what leadership is in there. How do you define that term, or how are you defining that term? What does that look like? You talked about with your Spitz what you did to feed that confidence. Maybe you can paint that picture just a little bit more, what that looked like and what you were doing. Kamal Fernandez: I deal with a lot of dogs that have reactivity issues and fear issues. I'll give you an example of a dog I had. I posted videos of him on my Facebook page, and that was a Great Dane called Jensen. He was obviously a large adolescent Great Dane, and fortunately I didn't miss my first interaction with him. He was incredibly fearful and he had a history of being reactive. He chased after a child, and there were a couple of other things going on with him. When he came to me, the first time I met him he spook-barked at me, he backed off, etcetera, and his owner was really dubious about it. She was concerned about leaving him. Within, I would say, 24 hours, the dog's behavior changed. It's the same dog, and bear in mind she dropped him off for training with me, I had the dog for ten days, within 24 hours the dog was different, and within 48 hours you would have said I'd done something with that dog, or given him some sort of medication, or he was doped or tranquilized, because his temperament changed. The way in which I dealt with him was I just never made a big deal out of his … when he got worried or apprehensive or scared, it was OK. I just allowed him to figure things out for himself. I allowed him the space and the time to just work out that the world isn't a scary place. I can remember distinctly taking him past a large garden ornament and he absolutely freaked out and he spook-barked at it. He was on a lead, so it was fine. It was quite a long lead, and I just let him go to the end of the lead, and I just stood my ground, and scratched my head, and looked around, and remained really nondescript about the whole thing. I was like, “OK, he's scared of the garden ornament,” and I just allowed him to figure out. He sniffed the ground and went up to it. I didn't feed him or reinforce him for any behavior. I just allowed him to realize, “Oh, it's a garden ornament, that's all it is.” Once he figured it out, the dog was absolutely fine. But because I didn't react, and I didn't panic, and I didn't get stressed, or I didn't hide or I didn't go fearful, the dog picked up from me that, “Oh, OK, this guy doesn't seem to be concerned about it. Why should I?” That was a consistent thing with him. Another scenario — I had him on a training camp with me for a week, as I say. This was a dog that had reactive issues. He would lunge, and he caused quite a bit of damage to his owner's hand by pulling and sort of strained … I think he fractured her finger, her whole hand, by his strength, obviously. So he had major issues with reactivity and lunging. I was training him one day, I was just playing with him and doing stuff with him, and somebody didn't know I was training and they let their dog in the field. It came rushing up to him, straight up to him. It was a Golden Retriever, a really lovely dog, really super-friendly, and Jensen did nothing. He just sniffed it and he relaxed and I gave him a bit of lead and he sniffed it and that was the end of that. Now if that was previous to my dealings with him, that dog would have definitely, definitely reacted. And again, it just stemmed from... I did things with him, like I definitely worked on his recall. I took him out with my other dogs, and my dogs are all very confident, so dogs pick up on that energy and they pick up on that vibe. If you're with a group of people that are gregarious, outgoing, and positive, you tend to pick up on that energy, so it's the same with dogs. The other thing I did with him is I allowed him just to figure stuff out. I let him be a dog, and I think that's a really, really, really key thing. Allow the dog to be a dog. Let him be a little bit freaked out by something and let him just work it out. “Oh, it isn't a big scary scarecrow. It's an inanimate object. It's not an ax murderer that's going to kill me.” Stay a safe distance, and be cautious and be sensible, but don't be fearful in your dealings. I'm very much about letting dogs figure that stuff out and I give them time. Obviously I use reinforcement, if appropriate. I give the dog space, and I'm mindful of who I'm interacting the dog with, so long as there's things that help the dog. But the big thing is I give them leadership. I say to him, “The world isn't a scary place. You're going to be fine. Let's walk past the ornament. Let's just ignore it. It's fine. Let's go. I'm not bothered, so you're not bothered.” I'm a confident person when I deal with dogs, and dogs definitely pick up on that. Practical things that people can do and take away is video your training, video your interactions, and look at triggers that you do. Do you tense up the lead? Do you tense up your shoulders? Does your body posture change? Those are things that you can untrain the dog's association with by doing those in the privacy of your own home and pairing them with reinforcement so you can help your dog understand that those triggers equate to good things happening to them. The other thing is accrue people that are going to help you build your confidence with your dog, if you're not naturally a confident person. I talk about accruing villages, people that have the same ethos, if you have the same approach to dealing with dogs, and therefore are going to help you with dogs that are challenging or that have issues and that you need to be a leader in, so you want supportive people around you. There is information out there. Obviously I teach for the FDSA, and I am going to use her as an example: Denise Fenzi is by definition a leader. She created the FDSA from nothing and she's accrued people, villages, whatever you want to call them, who are on the same ethos. We are all individual, we have our own little things, and I think that's the strength of the school, we're all leaders in our own field, but Denise leads from the front, and she sets the tone and the example of how everybody engages, and how we operate, and how we teach, and how we approach our teaching. From my personal experience that's been a learning curve — how to deal with people online, and how to teach them and be more effective in my teaching and my communication, to be better and to be able to help more people. That's the epitome of what a leader should be. There's no judgment. It's about inspiring people to want to do better, and I would say Denise is a great example of that. There are other people within our industry who I would look to as great leaders. She's definitely somebody that's taken the bull by the horns and set up this amazing school to do so. Melissa Breau: Yes, absolutely. I couldn't agree with you more. To shift gears a little back to the leadership concept, the last time you were on, we talked about this idea that work equals play equals work, and it seems like that idea and this idea of leadership are connected somehow. I'm not sure exactly where to pull those threads together. Do you see those ideas as related, and if so, how or how not? Kamal Fernandez: Absolutely I do. The way in which I explain it is when I was a police officer, we always had a phrase in that you'd say, “You'd go the extra mile for a good governor.” A governor would be a person of rank who would be your manager, and you would go the extra mile for somebody that recognized your value. I think that's very much applicable to dog training. The reason they appreciated you is because you didn't feel like you were going to work. You felt like you were going to be part of a team and having a great time with your mates, and everybody had the same vision, everybody was collective in what they were aiming for. I don't want to say we were playing a game, because it was obviously serious work, but it never felt like work, it never felt like a chore to engage with the team I was specifically thinking about, because the person that led us created that ethos within the group, if that makes sense. I'd say the same applies to dog training, in that if you can inspire your dog to want to play the game with you … Susan Garrett has a great phrase in that she says, “People that do great things, or leaders, they make the mundane tasks a game. They make things that are laborious and hard, they make it a game, and everybody wants to play games.” My role is to make it a game so the dog wants to play the game with me. Being an effective leader, you are inspiring the people that you lead, whether it be two-legged or four-legged, to want to participate. For me, the way in which I do that is via the medium of a game. Melissa Breau: I want to totally change gears on you for a minute here and talk about your Handler's Choice classes. I know Denise often says that the Handler's Choice classes are one of the best values at FDSA, and I know you've taught them, at least the last few sessions. It seems like when I look back it seems pretty consistent. So I wanted to see if there's something special about these classes that's led you to offer them regularly, and if you could just share a little about how you run them and what they're all about. Kamal Fernandez: Handler's Choice is probably one of my favorite courses I've ever done. It's like a smorgasbord of dog training, and anybody that does Gold in the Handler's Choice, you are going to get such amazing value for money, and you're going to learn so much because there's so many things that are covered. I've done Handler's Choice and I had heeling, retrieves, go out, send aways, I had impulse control, I had a behavioral thing in there, all in one course, and you're thinking, like, you sign up as a Bronze, you're getting five or six or seven or eight, depending on how many different goal participants, you're going to get all that information, all that different stuff, and I just think it's such a great thing. The way in which I do it is I allow everybody in Handler's Choice to pick two things that they want to work on, so it might be, for example, heeling and retrieves, or it might be impulse control and tugging, for example, hypothetical, and work through that over the six-week period. I will post videos that are lectures related to your specific needs, and I'll also do ad hoc ones. If I haven't got video that's appropriate I'll go and do one that's literally specific to your needs. Another thing I do, which is really, really cool and I love to do, is I live-stream a session relating to somebody on that course. I have an alumni group for the Fenzi students that have done any of my courses, and I have done live streams talking about everything from heelwork to behavioral issues and adolescents, for example, I think I did a live stream on. It's such a great course. It's like the secret course. People just don't pick up on how amazing it is. You have so many courses that are very specific and the information is amazing, but it's very, very much about a specific task or specific skill. But Handler's Choice is literally a smorgasbord of brilliant training and so many different subjects, so if you're a dog training geek like me, Handler's Choice is definitely the course to do. Melissa Breau: One last question before I let you go. I didn't see anything scheduled with you yet after February when I was checking. It's possible that will have changed by the time this comes out, but are there any other classes coming up that you're going to be offering in the next couple of sessions that listeners should keep an eye out for? Kamal Fernandez: Yeah. I'm the world's worst in getting my calendar in order, and I tend to message Denise going, “Oh, Denise, can I do this in February?” And Denise being Denise goes, “Yes, message Teri to sort it out, whatever.” I probably, knowing me, will do something in February. At this moment I'm not sure what it's going to be. I would have thought it would be Handler's Choice again because that's just a rolling class and I love teaching that, but at the moment I'm doing the FCI Foundation heeling course, which probably the natural thing would be to do the next subsequent course after that to give the people on the Foundation course continuity. That's probably the way in which I'm heading. The whole concept of the school is just fantastic. I love the ethos, I love the message, I love what the other instructors bring to the table. Some of them are very diverse and very different to what I do, and I'm very different to what they do, and I think the beauty is that we're all individual, but we're all on the same song sheet, so to speak. I think for anybody contemplating doing a course, it's amazingly great value for money. It's such a reasonably priced product. To be crass, it doesn't cost the world to do six weeks of dog training with a world-renown international dog trainer in a specific field for $65. I think it's $65. Melissa Breau: The bronze? Yeah. Kamal Fernandez: …where you can get that information. It's ridiculously cost-effective, so hopefully more people will sign up and they'll get on board with what Fenzi has to offer. Melissa Breau: I certainly hope so. Thank you so much, Kamal. I really appreciate you coming back on the podcast. Kamal Fernandez: My pleasure, Melissa. Thank you very much for asking me, and thank you very much for having me, and all the best. Melissa Breau: You too. And thanks to our listeners for tuning in. We'll be back next week, this time with long-time FDSA student Ester Zimmerman, to talk competitive obedience and dog sports in general. And guys, this week I want to repeat my special request from the last couple of episodes. If you listen to podcasts, I'm sure you've heard other people say this, but reviews in iTunes have a HUGE impact on helping new people find the show and letting iTunes know that our show is actually worth listening to. So if you've enjoyed this episode or any of the previous ones, I'd really appreciate it if you could take a moment, go to iTunes, and leave us a review. We've gotten a few new ones -- like this one, titled Another Way to Learn from Top Dog Trainers from A Very Dead Bird. “I'm excited that the Fenzi Academy has another venue to educate about progressive, effective dog training methods. If you're a fellow behavior geek, especially if you're into dog sports, this podcast is for you.” Thank you a very dead bird, whoever you are! And, while you're there, if you haven't already, subscribe to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. CREDITS: Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzi for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty-free by BenSound.com; the track featured here is called “Buddy.” Audio editing provided by Chris Lang.

SHOW NOTES: Summary: Julie Flanery has been working professionally with dogs and their handlers since 1993. She focuses on the needs of the dog and helping people form a strong relationship, through clear communication, and positive reinforcement. She has placed Obedience, Freestyle, Rally-Obedience, Rally-FrEe, Parkour, Agility, and Trick Dog titles on her dogs. She began competing in Musical Freestyle in 1999 and was the first to both title and earn a Heelwork to Music Championship on the West Coast. In 2001 she was named "Trainer of the Year" by the World Canine Freestyle Organization and has been a competition freestyle judge since 2003. Five years ago Julie developed the sport of Rally-FrEe to help freestylers increase the quality and precision of their performances. It has since become a stand-alone sport enjoyed by dog sport enthusiasts all over the world. Julie has been a workshop and seminar presenter both nationally and internationally. She currently trains and competes with her Tibetan Terrier in both Musical Freestyle and Rally-FrEe. Next Episode:  To be released 2/23/2018, featuring Kamal Fernandez, to talk about the benefits of competition and the concept of leadership in dog training. TRANSCRIPTION: Melissa Breau: This is Melissa Breau and you're listening to the Fenzi Dog Sports Podcast brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy, an online school dedicated to providing high-quality instruction for competitive dog sports using only the most current and progressive training methods. Today we'll be talking to Julie Flanery. Julie has been working professionally with dogs and their handlers since 1993. She focuses on the needs of the dog and helping people form a strong relationship, through clear communication, and positive reinforcement. She has placed Obedience, Freestyle, Rally-Obedience, Rally-FrEe, Parkour, Agility, and Trick Dog titles on her dogs. She began competing in Musical Freestyle in 1999 and was the first to both title and earn a Heelwork to Music Championship on the West Coast. In 2001 she was named "Trainer of the Year" by the World Canine Freestyle Organization and has been a competition freestyle judge since 2003. Five years ago Julie developed the sport of Rally-FrEe to help freestylers increase the quality and precision of their performances. It has since become a stand-alone sport enjoyed by dog sport enthusiasts all over the world. Julie has been a workshop and seminar presenter both nationally and internationally. She currently trains and competes with her Tibetan Terrier in both Musical Freestyle and Rally-FrEe. Welcome back to the podcast Julie! Julie Flanery: Thanks. Melissa Breau: To start people out, can you just remind folks a little bit of information about your dog, what you do with her, and who she is? Julie Flanery: Currently I work with my 7-year-old Tibetan Terrier, and we are competing in Musical Freestyle and In Sync, which is a version of Heelwork to Music, and also Rally-FrEe. She's earned her Championships in both Freestyle and in Rally-FrEe, and a Grand Championship in Rally-FrEe, and we're working towards our Grand Championship in Musical Freestyle and our Championship in In Sync. Melissa Breau: Do you want to share her name? Julie Flanery: Kashi. Melissa Breau: Kashi. Excellent. Julie Flanery: Kashi. Like the cereal, you know? Good for you and makes you feel good. Melissa Breau: I like that! So I think we have a pretty fun topic lined up for today. I wanted to talk about the skills that trainers need but they sometimes don't learn until they get pretty into dog sports. To start us out, I wanted to start with talking about shaping. What aspect of shaping do you feel is usually the hardest for new trainers to implement effectively and why? Julie Flanery: I think there are a couple of things that can be really hard for trainers. The first thing, I think there is a very fine line between clicking what you observe and anticipating what the dog will do, so that your click is well timed. There's a tendency to wait until you actually see it, and then in that moment we have to process that information before we can act on it and actually click it. While this happens really quickly in the brain, there's still some latency, and this can actually result in late clicks, so you're giving the dog information that isn't actually what you want to convey. So first, having a picture in your head of the path the dog is likely to take, and shaping that behavior. Let's say you're shaping going under a chair. You can picture the dog's most likely path from where he's starting, as well as from where your reward is placed, and have a sense ahead of time of where your click points will be. You want to anticipate those click points. You at least want to have the precursor to your click points in mind and what they'll look like. This way you're going to be able to anticipate the dog's next likely action, and that's really imperative to good click timing. In a lot of respects this also relates to raising criteria, which is another place that handlers tend to have a lot of difficulty, and they're often getting stuck by clicking the same criteria for longer than is actually beneficial. You can often get stuck by clicking that same criteria for longer than we want, longer than is beneficial, so having that picture ahead of time can actually help the handler move forward in their criteria shifts as well. Melissa Breau: You mentioned the going under a chair example. If you know you're going to have the dog go under the chair, what is it that you're looking for? That first drop of the head? The drop of the shoulders? Am I on the right track? Julie Flanery: Depending on where the dog is starting, you might just be looking for looking at the chair. That might be your first click point. And certainly before the dog can move toward the chair, he's going to look at it. Before the dog can go under it, he's going to move towards it. But before he can move towards it, he needs to look at it. So you're looking at that progression and the behavior to determine where your click points are going to be so you can anticipate those things. If you put your chair out and then you go stand next to the dog and wait for something, you've probably already missed that first click. So setting that chair out, the dog is likely to look at it. That would be your first click. And then moving towards it, we can anticipate he's going to take a step towards the chair if he has any experience interacting with props. So we're anticipating that, and we're looking for it to happen, and we're trying to time our click and mark it just as he's doing that. If we wait until he actually does it, we're probably going to be late in our timing. Melissa Breau: Talking about timing, I know that one of the things you stress in your shaping class is the importance of good handler mechanics. I wanted to get into that a little bit. Can you share what you mean by that and how it's supposed to work? Maybe where folks tend to go wrong when it comes to mechanics? Julie Flanery: Sure. I think that we make it much harder on our dogs to shape than it needs to be sometimes. The dog needs to concentrate on the task, the task of figuring out “How do I earn reinforcement?” Remember, the dog doesn't know we're working toward something specific. He doesn't know there is an end-behavior goal. We know that, but he doesn't. He only knows that if he does certain things, he earns rewards. But I do believe that experienced shaping dogs do learn there is an end result and that they are working toward completion. They learn there is a process being followed and can anticipate the next steps, what we sometimes call “learning to learn.” They can anticipate within the process, once we have allowed them to experience it enough, which I believe is why some dogs seem to be better at getting behaviors on verbal cue while other dogs seem to struggle with that a bit. So the more verbal cues the dog learns, the quicker he learns the next ones, so there's an understanding of the process, what comes next, and the understanding from experience that verbal cues have meaning and value. In terms of clean training, clean training is really about creating the best environment for the dog to concentrate on the task and not be distracted from that. So in shaping, the primary information we want to provide to the dog is the marker and subsequent reinforcement. This is really all he needs within the shaping process in order to progress toward the handler's end goal. Yet we're constantly hindering their ability to do so in a variety of ways. Hovering over the bait bag, hands in pockets, reaching for food, or having food in our hands all indicate reward is imminent. The only thing that should indicate that reward is imminent is the sound of our marker. Anything else is overshadowing and diminishing the meaning and value of that marker: the click. That's our most powerful communication tool while shaping, and yet we're constantly putting in these extraneous movements or chattering to our dogs, and all of this, if done when shaping, can draw their attention away from the task. Think about if you're concentrating on a crossword puzzle and someone keeps interrupting you to ask a question. It's going to take longer to complete your puzzle, as there's all this extraneous stimulus that you keep having to deal with. So in our attempts to help our dog — getting the treat out faster, saying encouraging things, moving in a way that we think will prompt the dog — he's having to filter through what is relevant and what is not, and in our efforts to help, we're actually pulling the dog off task. So let them work. Your job is to provide relevant information and not to cloud the learning process by doing things that distract the dog from working towards that task. Does that make sense? Melissa Breau: Absolutely. Sometimes it just helps to stop and think about, OK, this is the process I'm actually following: it's a click and a pause and then reach for the treat, that piece. Julie Flanery: Right. In terms of mechanical skills, those are the things we're talking about. We're talking about, What is the handler doing with their body? Is their body still and quiet? Are they allowing the dog to focus on what's important, or are they taking the dog's focus away from that because there's something going on with the handler that isn't really adding to the learning process and is actually detracting from it. Melissa Breau: Even knowing all that, people tend to get frustrated when they're trying shaping, especially if they haven't done a lot of it, because they wind up with a dog that does one of two things. They wind up with a dog that stands or sits there and stares at them, especially if they've done a lot of focus work, or they get a dog that is throwing out behavior so fast that they're having trouble targeting one specific thing or getting motion towards the behavior that they're looking for. Any tips for folks struggling with those issues? I don't know if there are generic tips that apply to both, but maybe you could talk to that a little bit. Julie Flanery: That can be a huge deterrent and pretty frustrating to someone that's just starting out in shaping, and I know many, many trainers who gave up or basically said, “It doesn't work.” It's not that the process and protocol don't work. It's that they need to learn how to apply it effectively. So these are two separate issues: the dog that stands still and does nothing, and the dog that just starts frantically throwing behaviors at you. But in general I'd say they have the same solution, and it's a pretty easy mantra to remember: Click for anything but. Anything but standing still and staring earns a click, even if you have to toss a cookie to start them moving and give you an opportunity to click. Anything but standing still. A lot can happen, even in a dog that's standing still, but for a lot of new shapers, the two-legged kind, larger movements are going to be easier for them to see. So getting the dog moving and clicking anything but standing still will help. For those dogs that are frantically throwing things at you, you want to click way early, before they have an opportunity to start throwing behaviors out. You want to be ready before you get the dog out. A lot of dogs, we give these cues that we're about to start shaping. We pick up our clicker, we put the bait bag on, we put our hand in our pocket, we go to a certain place, and our dogs, before we even in our minds are starting to train, are already starting to throw behaviors out at us. All of those “pre-cues” that we're giving are actually cues to the dog to offer. So be ready before you get the dog out. The worst thing you can do with both these kinds of dogs is look at them expectantly, like, “OK, do something,” or “Do something else.” Sometimes we have to create those first few clicks to get the dog on the right path, so setting up our environment or a session to prevent both of those things by creating some type of an effective antecedent. So if a dog is constantly throwing things at me, then I might use a prop to direct his activity. Or I might click upon coming out of the crate and each step forward toward where we want to train. Often, dogs that throw behaviors just aren't being given enough information of what to do, so they're giving you everything they can think of in hopes that one of those will get clicked. So rather than shaping toward something, the handler is waiting for it to occur. I want you to click — again, it's “Click anything but,” so if you can take that moment of behavior — a single step, a single look, coming out of the crate — and click that, that can start to define for the dog the path you're going to lead them onto. It can tell them, “Oh, I don't have to keep throwing all of this stuff, because she's already clicking something. Now what did she click, so that I can repeat it?” The other thing that often happens with these dogs that tend to throw things or push farther in the criteria than we want them to be is although we aren't willing to drop back in the criteria, to move forward again. When the movement gets out of hand and you feel like the dog is pushing, or you're pushing, or you're rushing, it's OK to just stop, breathe, go back earlier in the criteria, click something way less than what you've been clicking, and then build it gradually back up again. So again, I think the answer is the same for both those situations: Click anything but. Melissa Breau: Excellent. I like that. It's nice, short, and easy to remember. This seems like a good point to dig in more a little bit on criteria. You were talking a little bit there about thinking about your criteria maybe a little differently than most people do. Are there general guidelines for how fast to raise criteria? I know you talked a little bit about going backwards in your criteria. When is it a good idea to do that? Julie Flanery: For me, and I think most of the Fenzi instructors, we all have a pretty common idea about raising or lowering criteria, and that is when it's predictable, when you can predict they're going to give you the exact same criteria again. I like to include the word confident, so when it's confident and predictable, then increase criteria, and if you have two incorrect responses in a row, then it's time to lower criteria. For my dog, oftentimes she's ready to raise criteria and looks confident, and for me, it's predictable in her within three repetitions. I can tell whether it's time to raise criteria, stay where I'm at, or lower criteria. A response might be predictable, but I'm not seeing quite the confidence I want to see, and so I might hold off another repetition or two to ensure that she really has some good understanding of that. But certainly if I see two incorrect responses in a row, then I'm going to lower criteria. Now that precludes that you know where your criteria shifts are, because when I say “incorrect responses,” you have to know what that is and what that isn't. Let's say I'm training a bow, and I am watching for the head and shoulder lowering, and she's moving in a progression forward, so I'm clicking the head drop, click the head drop again, then she lowers slightly lower, I click that, and I'm anticipating what her next movement is, so that I can actually see and anticipate, through my click, when she will do that. Let's say, for shaping, an incorrect response might be either less than what I previously clicked or no response whatsoever. She's predictably dropping her head and starting to lower her chest, but maybe her elbows aren't on the ground yet, and she's done that same thing three times in a row, then I'm not going to click that anymore. I'm going to wait, and hopefully she'll give me a little bit more, based on the fact that I've clicked this previously, she knows she's on the right track, and she'll be like, “Hey, did you see this?” and give me a little bit more, and I can click that. So it was predictable that she was going to drop her chest a little bit and her head is lowering. I don't want to keep clicking that because I'm going to get stuck there, because she's going to think, “Oh, this is right, I think I'll keep doing this.” If she is at that point, say, and the next offering, the next rep, her head isn't quite as low, so I don't click that and she just stands up. So she offers again and she still doesn't get as low as the previous one, and she just stands up. Then I'm going to say, “OK, she doesn't have clear enough understanding of what the next step is, so I want to build confidence in the previous.” In that case I'm going to lower my criteria maybe for a couple more reps and then start to build back up again. Does that make sense? Melissa Breau: Absolutely, and that was a great example because it walked us through thinking through the different steps and the bits and pieces there. Julie Flanery: Hopefully you can actually visualize that a little bit so you can actually see and be able to anticipate what that next step is. We all know what it looks like for a dog to bow and bring his chest and elbows down to the ground. You can map that out in your head and be able to anticipate what comes next, and if what you expect to come next isn't happening, you're stagnated, or you're getting lesser responses, then that's showing that the dog doesn't understand what that forward progression is next. Melissa Breau: You said something recently, and I can't remember if I originally heard it in a webinar or if it's from class, but you were talking about “leaps of learning” and how to respond if, while shaping, the dog suddenly makes a big leap in the right direction. Maybe we're trying for four paws on a platform, they've been struggling to give two, and suddenly they step on it with all four paws. Obviously you click it. Do you mind just sharing it here? Because I thought it was really interesting and I hadn't heard that before. Julie Flanery: I don't know if I will say exactly what you remember, but I understand what you're asking, and it did come up recently in the shaping class I'm teaching that you are a student of — and you're doing very well, by the way. Melissa Breau: Thank you. Julie Flanery: So there are times when it seems like our dogs get it right away, like, all of a sudden — what you just described —they were struggling with two and all of a sudden there's four and “Yay!” That doesn't mean you're going to hold out for four feet on the platform now. One correct response doesn't indicate understanding, and yet sometimes we forge ahead as if it does. I want to see not only predictable responses, I want to see confident, predictable responses, so that leap up of four feet on the platform might have looked confident, but we don't really know if it's predictable until we get a few reps. So I want to make sure that I see confident, predictable responses before I increase criteria, even if it appears that they've got it. Now, having said that, I don't want to stay stuck at the same criterion too long, so each handler has to determine what that looks like in their dog. For me, I can recognize confidence in my own dog, in Kashi, and for her, if she provides the same response three to four times in a row, that's predictable, and I'm going to go ahead and raise criteria there. If I made an error in judgment, I can always drop back down, but my goal is still going to be always forward progression. I don't want to stay stuck in any single criterion for too long, and that might be different for each dog, but consider your definition of predictable. For me, again, if she does it three or four times in a row and she looks confident in her actions, I can predict that she'll do it that fourth time or that fifth time. If I can predict it, I don't want to stay there. Kathy Sdao talked about criteria shifts in one of her lectures in relation to a recording being played on a record player, and how the needle can get stuck in a groove and not advance, so the record keeps skipping over the same place in the music. Well, if we click the same criteria for too many reps, the dog will get stuck in that groove, and you risk some increased frustration in working to get out of that groove. Sometimes lowering criteria is the way out. Sometimes withholding the click is the way out. Either way, you need to get out of that groove. Melissa Breau: Frustration on both the dog and the handler's part. Julie Flanery: Exactly, exactly. It's kind of like that dog that stands still and does nothing. You need to get out of that groove. What I talked about earlier about having a picture in your mind of the likely path the dog will take – that will help you not get stuck. I think sometimes people get stuck because they just don't know what to click next. So having a picture in your head, thinking ahead of time, “What is this process going to look like?” will help you anticipate that and will help you move forward in the process, to progress in the process, and not get stuck at any one point. Melissa Breau: What about duration? First of all, is it possible to actually shape duration, and then if so, how is shaping duration different than shaping more active behaviors? Julie Flanery: That's a really interesting question, and it's interesting because of the way you framed it. You said, “Is it actually possible to shape duration?” and that surprised me because yes, it's totally possible to shape duration, and I think really in general all duration is shaped in that we are marking and rewarding in small increments towards that end behavior, towards that extended duration of behavior. Shaping duration is like shaping any other skill, though your increments need to be sliced very thin in order to not get some other behavior in there. You're still withholding the click for a little more, and for most dogs withholding the click means do something else or push ahead. Duration needs to be more finely sliced so that we don't get some of that junk behavior in there. But that little bit, little generally less than what you might hold out for in a moving behavior, so you're not waiting long chunks of time, too, what we have to measure can be more difficult, so it's not as difficult to measure movement, as there is time and space, you can see a dog's action and how it carries him forward. So clicking movement, marking movement, in increments is not too difficult for the observer. In building duration, there's only time, there's no space, and we aren't very good at keeping track of time. If I paused here, then I asked three different people how many seconds did I pause, they would all have a different answer. So I often either count in my head or out loud to measure the advancement of my duration criteria. In appropriate criteria shifts for duration, especially since they should be sliced thin, we often aren't very consistent in our forward progression of time, and that can lead to inconsistency and a lack of understanding in the dog. I think that the reason people have difficulty shaping duration is because they aren't slicing those increments of time small enough. They're thinking of it like they would shape movement and larger pieces of behavior, and in shaping duration you can't do that because the dog is going to pull off. Let's take for example a sustained nose target. We want the dog to hold that nose target for — let's say our goal is three seconds. Four seconds, three seconds. Initially we click the act of pressing the nose and we click immediately. That tells the dog what the intended behavior is to which we're now going to start to attach duration. Once the dog presses the nose and expects a click and it doesn't come, he's likely to pull off, which is not going to get clicked either. Often when we withhold a click, which is what just happened here, on the next rep we will see a slightly higher-energy behavior, a little bit more, a little bit stronger, again it's like that “Hey, didn't you see this? Look, I'm going to do it a little bit more so you can see it.” In that moment of that second offering after the withheld click, you're likely to see a little more pressure — and I know it's hard to see, and this is why hand touches are a good thing for this, because you'll feel that pressure — and in that moment of more pressure, that takes a slightly longer amount of time. The time it takes for your dog to just touch something, and the time it takes a dog to touch something and put a little pressure, is slightly longer, and that's what you're clicking. That pressure is also criteria of sustained nose target, because they're going to have to put a little pressure there in order to keep their nose there. So that slice right there is super-thin, and once the dog pushes on again, you may have to go through a couple of clicks of he pushes, or, I'm sorry, he touches, it's not sustained even for a fraction of a second, you wait, that second one is sustained a fraction of a second, you click. Then you can start to extend by not seconds but almost fractions of seconds. So you're not counting one-one-thousand. You're counting one, click, one two, click, one two, click. If the dog pulls off, there's no click. So the dog is starting to understand, through both the withheld click for when he comes off and the click for continued small slivers of duration, that by keeping the nose to the hand, or the wall, or wherever you wanted the target, that's what he's building toward. But as soon as you start to increase that too far, too fast, you're going to get frustration, you're going to get poking at the wall, which is not what you want, and so the key to duration, to shaping duration, is really making sure that, number one, you are slicing those increments very small, and that those increments are very consistent, that you're not going all over the place with your duration, and that's where the counting or doing something that helps you measure that passing of time so that you have appropriate clicks will help. I'm not going to deny that it's a harder concept for some people to get, or it's a harder skill for some people to get, but if you understand the concept of shaping, and progressing through a behavior through small increments, it's just a matter of how finely you slice it for duration. That's all. Melissa Breau: That's really interesting, because typically you think of it's always easier to teach a dog to do something in the absence of a behavior. Julie Flanery: Correct. But you have to think of duration as a behavior. Does that make sense? Duration isn't the absence of a behavior. It's the continuation of a behavior. It's the absence of movement, and we've always been taught “Click for movement, feed for position” — still a very, very good rule. But in duration it seems as if it's the absence of a behavior, when in actuality it's the extension of a behavior. Melissa Breau: That gives me a lot to think on. Julie Flanery: Yeah, I'm sure. Melissa Breau: Hopefully it gives a lot for everybody to think on. But I want to shift gears a little bit and talk about training in general. I think you gave a great webinar last year on verbal cues, and it's part of what inspired the topic for today, the idea of what you didn't learn in puppy class. I feel like the concept of when to add a cue and how to go about it sometimes gets glossed over for a number of reasons, obviously, when dog owners are first learning to train. So when do you typically add a cue to behavior and how do you go about it? Julie Flanery: For me, something that I touched on earlier, I like the dog to have confident, predictable, correct responses that include the majority if not all of my criteria for that behavior. I say majority because there are some times, or some things, that I can add later, and the cue actually helps me draw that base behavior out of the dog. So, for example, duration or distance may be something I don't have yet, but will go ahead and put it on cue and build those in later. The behavior may or may not be fully generalized when I put it on cue, depending on the behavior. I may use cue discrimination as part of my generalization process. For me, the criteria, the majority of the criteria, needs to be predictable and confident and I'm certain that I'm going to get correct responses. As soon as I have that, I will start the process of putting the behavior on cue. Now, having said that, that will fluctuate, so I might have predictable, confident, correct responses in a session in the morning, and so partway through that session I start to add the cue. But maybe that afternoon or the next day, when I start my session, I'm not seeing the same confidence or the same predictability, and in that case I'm not going to continue to use the cue or add the cue in that session. There's kind of an ebb and flow to our dogs' ability to maintain predictability when they're first learning behaviors. It has to do with that leap of learning we were talking about earlier, about not assuming that because the dog does it correct once that they have understanding, and it's the same with adding the cue. I do want to take advantage of my dog's predictable responses in any given session, those predictable responses that again that are confident and contain the majority of my criteria. But just because I've started putting the behavior on cue doesn't mean that that next session, or that next location that I might work the behavior, that my dog is ready then to put it on cue. It's kind of like Denise's “Work the dog in front of you.” That dog changes from session to session, and so my training strategies have to change session to session, depending on what he's giving me at the start of that session. So again: predictable, I'm going to insert the cue; not predictable, I'm going to hold off a little bit. And that may all very well be with the exact same behaviors over different sessions. I think you are right in using the term “glossed over.” It's a part of the process that few spend very much time planning or implementing. It's either almost like an afterthought — “Oh yeah, now I need to put the cue on” — or they make the assumption that if they just start using the cue while training, the dog will get it somehow. So that process they apply is often random and very inefficient. Overlapping the behavior and the cue is a really common thing that I see. Cues should always precede behaviors with nothing in between, no junk behavior in between the cue and the behavior. You want it to have meaning for them. In putting behaviors on cue or transferring the cue, you really need to set that up. So if you're shaping, you first need a predictable, correct response. Are you noticing a theme here, Melissa? A predictable, correct response with confidence — that's really key to the dog's understanding. If the response is confident and correct and predictable, then we can start to assume some understanding. Until that happens, though, we're still working towards that. Once you have that, you insert your cue just prior to the dog either offering the behavior or the behavior being prompted. For example, we might have used a hand signal, we might not be shaping, we might have used a hand signal, or we might be prompting the dog in some other way, a visual cue or a prop might prompt the dog to interact with it. So just before the key phrase is, just prior to the dog offering the behavior or performing the behavior, that's when you insert the cue. Not as the dog is doing the behavior. Cues always precede behavior. It's why they're called antecedents. It's that old ABC: the cue is the antecedent, then behavior, then consequence. So when putting a cue to shape behavior, where people tend to shoot themselves in the foot is continuing to reward offered behavior. They might have started to put the behavior on cue, great, the dog is predictable, the dog is consistent, you're doing the correct thing by inserting the cue before the behavior, but unfortunately, you might be continuing to reward that offered behavior. So once you start to put the behavior on cue, execution on cue is the only thing that gets rewarded. Otherwise there's no value in the cue to the dog. If he can offer and get rewarded, or if he can get rewarded for doing it on cue, you're not going to get stimulus control because there's no value in the cue. Now there's a caveat to that. Melissa Breau: Of course. Julie Flanery: Yeah, and you'll learn about it next week in class, but there are times when you have a behavior that's on cue and you're going to want to remove the cue and encourage the dog to offer it again so that you can either fix or improve on the behavior. Maybe something's gone a little bit wrong, or you're not getting the criteria you used to have with it. It's gone a bit south. Then you want to remove that cue so that you can refine or improve the behavior, and then put that cue back on. That's a little more advanced process that is an important process too. Cues are cool. To me, putting the behavior on cue is the most important part of training the behavior, if you ever want to be able to draw it out of your dog. If you want the dog to respond reliably, then you have to really apply that process of putting it on cue very succinctly and very deliberately and not in a random fashion. We don't need cues if we don't care when the dog performs the behavior. But we do care. That's why we train. So cues should be a priority, and understanding how to put behaviors on cue should be a priority in any handler's learning. Melissa Breau: I think a lot of people struggle with that concept: the idea of getting something on stimulus control, getting a behavior to the point where it is reliable but also only actually happens on cue. Julie Flanery: And the reason is exactly that, because we have a tendency to still click off the behavior when it's offered. We love it, we like it, it's cute, I mean, “Oh, look at you, you did it again. How great,” and we have been patterned to click that offered behavior. We have to get ourselves out of that pattern. The rule is: Once you start putting the behavior on cue, you only click it when you cue it. That's what builds stimulus control. Melissa Breau: Let's say that you like to train, and you often get behaviors to that point where they're reliable enough for a cue. Is there any downside to having a bunch of half-trained behaviors that you never actually attach a cue to? … Julie Flanery: Well, that depends a little on your goals. If your goal is to compete and you need those behaviors, well, that's a really obvious detriment. But even more than that, in leaving behaviors what we're calling “half-trained,” you're denying your dog the opportunity and the experience to learn how to learn, how to learn a behavior to completion, and how to understand when you want him to perform that said behavior. Like most trainers, I love the acquisition stage. I love shaping, I love developing a behavior, but I also need my dog to understand the whole process if I ever want those behaviors to be of any use to me. I need my dog to learn how the process of adding a cue works so that he can also anticipate what comes next in the process. The more experience I give him at learning the whole process complete through generalization, adding the cue, and fluency, the faster and easier it is to train the next behavior, because it becomes something we are both working through the pieces to completion. The dog can help drive the process forward. That not only builds stronger behaviors, that builds faster behaviors, and that builds truly greater teamwork, in my mind, because you both are on the same path. You both have the same type of goal. But if we have a lot of half-trained behaviors, and only some of our behaviors are trained through completion, the dog just doesn't have enough experience to understand the full process and help drive that process to completion. Melissa Breau: A little birdie told me that maybe you're working on a class on that topic. Julie Flanery: I was asking the other instructors if they thought a class on finishing up all those half-trained behaviors would be a good idea, and they all jumped on it. So I'm planning to call it Mission Accomplished, and in effect you'll be providing your dog lots of opportunity and experience at learning how to learn. I think, for some, the reason that they haven't finished these behaviors is because they and their dog just need more experience at how to do it effectively and efficiently. People can get stuck in the process, just like dogs, and oftentimes that's why we have those half-trained behaviors. Maybe we don't know what we should do next, how to get it on cue, how to generalize it — all of those things that are involved in having a completed, reliable behavior. So hopefully that class will help some people. I think it will be a really fun class, and I'm just starting to develop it, but you've given me a lot of ideas in this podcast now that I can include in there, so that's super. Melissa Breau: Awesome. Do you have any idea yet when it's going to show up on the schedule? Julie Flanery: Oh my gosh, I have no idea. I'm just trying to get through this session. But I am keeping some notes and have some ideas floating around in my brain, and the schedule is a little bit set, but every now and then I'll add in a class if it's ready to go, so hopefully within the next few sessions it will be up on the schedule. Melissa Breau: Awesome. I'm looking forward to it, I will tell you that. Julie Flanery: Good. Melissa Breau: I think the other topic that gets overlooked — for lack of a better word — in pet training classes where most of us start out is fading treats from the training picture, so how to start reducing reinforcement. At what point in the process do you feel like a behavior is well enough established that you can start that process, and how do you usually tend to go about that? Julie Flanery: First thing somebody said is, I don't want the behavior well established before I take food out of my hand. That's personally for me. My rule of thumb for luring and removing the food from my hand is really first session, three to five reps, then present the hand cue, it needs to look exactly like my active lure, and I use it as a test. In general, especially dogs that have gone through this process, most dogs can do at least one correct response, or a partial response, without the food in your hand, due to the perception that the food is actually there, and you can build on that. Again, this is kind of important in terms of what we just talked about, about dogs learning the process. If a dog has gone through lure reward training and understands that at a point early in the process the food will no longer be an active lure, but that doesn't mean you won't be rewarded for following the hand signal, then that's a much easier leap for them than the dog that has an expectation of having food in the hand all the time, and really the only time he gets rewarded is when there is food in the hand. So that's one of the issues is we tend to reward less if we don't have the food right in our hand. But really it goes back to that teaching the dog the process so he has an appropriate expectation, and so it's not difficult to make those criteria shifts. The criteria shift of having food in the hand to having no food in the hand — that's criteria shift that the dog and handler go through. So three to five reps, and then I will remove the food from my hand and I will click early. I won't wait for the full behavior. I will click the dog following an empty hand cue on the path to the end behavior. I don't need to have the full behavior before I click the first time I take food out of my hand. If you tend to lure, if you use the lure for several sessions, then that's what your dog is going to expect. Lures are really effective for showing criteria, I do use lures on occasion, they're very effective at building patterns for the dog, but the sooner the dog learns to offer the criteria without food in your hand, the faster you're on your way to a more robust behavior, one that's going to, in my mind, have more strength and more longevity. So when I use lures, it's as a means to jumpstart my dog's understanding of what they should be offering. I think lures are an important tool, and I don't think we need to remove them from our toolbox, but I do think that people tend to keep food in their hand for far too long, far too deep into the process, so it becomes too much of an expectation for the dog, too much of a prompt, certainly. I hate to use the word “crutch,” but in a way it is, because really, until the food is gone, they're just following food. I don't believe that that stronger learning process starts to take place until the dog is initiating the behavior without prompts. Melissa Breau: That certainly matched my experience. Julie Flanery: I think that's why so many trainers now are really delving into shaping and are really starting to use that more as a primary tool than luring. Melissa Breau: Thank you so much for coming back on the podcast, Julie! I really appreciate it. Julie Flanery: I had a great time. I hope I get to come back again. I'm sorry I took so long. I get excited about this stuff and I love sharing it, and I want to share that with people, so I really appreciate you having me back here. Melissa Breau: Absolutely. I think folks are going to take a ton out of this. There's a lot of great information here, so thank you, seriously. Julie Flanery: Super. Melissa Breau: And thank you to all of our listeners for tuning in! We'll be back next week, this time with Kamal Fernandez to talk about the benefits of competition and the concept of leadership in dog training. And guys, this week I want to repeat my special request from the last few episodes. If you listen to podcasts, I'm sure you've heard other people say this, but reviews in iTunes have a HUGE impact on helping new people find the show and in letting iTunes know that our show is worth listening to. It helps us get recommended and it helps us get more eyeballs on the podcast and ears. So if you've enjoyed this episode or any of the previous ones, I'd really appreciate it if you could take a moment and leave us a review over in iTunes. And if you haven't already, subscribe while you're there to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. CREDITS: Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzi for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty-free by BenSound.com; the track featured here is called “Buddy.” Audio editing provided by Chris Lang.

SUMMARY: Lori Stevens is an animal behavior consultant, a professional dog trainer, a canine fitness trainer, an animal massage practitioner, and a senior Tellington TTouch® Training practitioner. She continually studies how animal behavior, movement, learning, fitness, and health all interact. She uses intimidation-free, scientific, and innovative methods, in an educational environment, to improve the health, behavior, performance, and fitness of animals. Lori gives workshops worldwide and has a private practice in Seattle, WA. She is also the creator of the Balance Harness. Lori's most recent of three DVDs by Tawser Dog Videos is co-presented with Kathy Sdao and called The Gift of a Gray Muzzle: Active Care for Senior Dogs. It focuses on improving the life of senior dogs. She teaches the popular FDSA course Helping Dogs Thrive: Aging Dogs, and will be introducing a new course this session called Helping Dogs Thrive: Fitness in Five. Links www.seattlettouch.com Next Episode:  To be released 1/26/2018, and I'll be talking to Chrissi Schranz about building reinforcers and recall training, so stay tuned! TRANSCRIPTION: Melissa Breau: This is Melissa Breau and you're listening to the Fenzi Dog Sports Podcast brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy, an online school dedicated to providing high-quality instruction for competitive dog sports using only the most current and progressive training methods. Today we'll be talking to Lori Stevens. Lori is an animal behavior consultant, a professional dog trainer, a canine fitness trainer, an animal massage practitioner, and a senior Tellington TTouch® Training practitioner. She continually studies how animal behavior, movement, learning, fitness, and health all interact. She uses intimidation-free, scientific, and innovative methods, in an educational environment, to improve the health, behavior, performance, and fitness of animals. Lori gives workshops worldwide and has a private practice in Seattle, WA. She is also the creator of the Balance Harness. Lori's most recent of three DVDs by Tawser Dog Videos is co-presented with Kathy Sdao and called The Gift of a Gray Muzzle: Active Care for Senior Dogs. It focuses on improving the life of senior dogs. She teaches the popular FDSA course Helping Dogs Thrive: Aging Dogs, and will be introducing a new course this session called Helping Dogs Thrive: Fitness in Five. Hi Lori, welcome back to the podcast. Lori Stevens: Hello Melissa. Thanks for having me back. Melissa Breau: I am very excited to talk to you again today. To start us out and remind listeners who you are, do you want to recap who the animals are that you share your life with? Lori Stevens: Sure. Since you made that plural, I'll add in my husband because humans are animals. Melissa Breau: Fair enough! Lori Stevens: Anyway, I live with my husband, Lee, and I live with my 12-and-a-half-year-old Aussie girl, Cassie. You know, I used to teach about aging dogs without actually having one, and now I have one. So after several years of teaching basically senior dogs how to have a better life, now I have one and I'm putting it to work. So it's nice to have a 12-and-a-half-year-old who's excited about doing fitness, and going to the park, and the beach, and trail outings, and all sorts of good things. Melissa Breau: You shared pictures. She's clearly in great shape. She looks awesome. Lori Stevens: Yeah, she's doing well. Melissa Breau: Good. I know from last time we talked that you're an advocate for canine fitness — probably not surprising based on what you do. But can you share a little about why it's important, especially for sports dogs? Lori Stevens: I'll start with sports. I have personal experience with seeing athletes go to the next level, and I think it's the cross-training, because they'll come in and basically say something like, “My dog keeps hitting bars. I think we need to improve something.” When we start doing some cross-training, or strengthening the core, or strengthening the legs that are involved in a jump, all those things, we see improvement in performance —surprise, surprise. I think a lot of time in sports the training is going to classes, practicing the sports, but sometimes you need to do one more level of fitness to get that extra little bit. There are so many benefits in canine fitness, things like strengthens muscles is obvious, but it really strengthens and helps the dog know when and how to engage their core muscles. That would happen automatically. It's not like they think, OK, it's time to engage my core muscles, but we do exercises where we start engaging them a lot and then it becomes more natural. You build better joint support through stronger muscles, improving flexibility, improve alignment and posture, balance and stability improve. And with that, what you get is fewer injuries, you get more confidence, you get more body awareness. And so dogs, when they're faced with a quick decision or a quick body move, they're more prepared and more confident to make that move, and stronger in that movement than they might be if they were just doing the regular training as a sport. It improves gait, movement, I just think it's fantastic. But another part of it, which I think we often leave out, is that it's a behavior changer. I have worked with fearful dogs that that was the way that I broke through to them. That confidence they get with suddenly doing things with their body that they've never done before, like hind leg targeting, I think that's a huge, huge exercise for dogs' awareness of where their back end is, their confidence. It seems to be a game changer, really, in terms of behavior, I have found. It's all the stuff you would naturally think of with fitness, but it also does a lot in terms of confidence, body awareness, and building trust even. I mean really being able to build trust, or doing something joyful that doesn't have the pressure of competition in it. Melissa Breau: I think that, for a lot of people, when they talk about fitness, they think about their own experiences. I don't know about you, but for me at least, the gym is not my favorite place to be. How does that compare to how dogs generally feel about fitness and what's the difference there? Lori Stevens: I hate the gym. Can I just say that? Really hate the gym. Melissa Breau: Absolutely. Lori Stevens: I have a personal trainer now. I love my trainer. And so maybe that's more like working with your dog. What pops to mind when I think of going to the gym is a sweaty place that doesn't smell great and has a lot of grunting. Canine fitness, what pops to mind when I think about it, is joy, joy, joy. That's what my canine gym is, my canine gym room. Doing fitness together is just a blast. I have to say that every dog I've ever worked with loves it, and that's why it's my sport. It's my sport, I'm calling it my sport because I don't have another sport, but to me, it really is. It's truly a fun activity and it's all about the joy. So they aren't really comparable, those two things. Melissa Breau: Fair enough, and I guess if someone was sitting there feeding us cookies for everything we did at the gym, we might enjoy it a little more too. Lori Stevens: Yeah, true. Melissa Breau: I think the other place that our concepts about our own fitness struggles sometimes hold us back is with the expectations around how much time we have to put into it. Most people probably think about spending an hour — or more, maybe — at the gym each time they go. Based on the upcoming course name, I'm going to guess that canine fitness differs there too. So how much time should people really be spending on canine fitness? Lori Stevens: You know that five is five hours. No, I'm just kidding. It's five minutes. You know, that goes for people too. When you're out walking your dog, and you're out in the woods, or on a trail, or in the park, it's OK if it takes an hour. But when you're in your house with your dog and you want to do some focused exercises, you want to stop and do a little training, so you might as well do a little fitness, five minutes is plenty. I do believe in warming up and cooling down, and the five minutes is the strengthening part, but if you wanted to turn that into two minutes of strengthening and a couple of minutes of warm-up, and a short cool down, that's fine too. I actually think, with people, they don't need to do an hour workout either. If I stop and do five to ten minutes of working out, that's better than if I don't do any at all, so the time thing, I think, often gets in the way. I also think we can over-train our dogs. I have a 12-and-a-half-year-old, and I set a timer. I set it for five minutes of training. If she's cold, like if she's been sleeping for a few hours, then I wake her up, I set my timer for five minutes, and we do five minutes of warm-up. Then I set it again, we do five minutes of strengthening, and then we do a few minutes of cool down, usually another five on the cool down. So I just set my timer. I think I got that idea of five, five, and five from Leslie Eide, a rehabilitation vet in our area. She also teaches fitness work. I think she's done some for Fenzi. I think the thing is that it's important to warm up a bit and cool down a bit, but you really don't have to spend that much time doing it. So all of the workouts that people are going to develop in my class are going to be five-minute workouts. We don't have to overthink this, you know. We can be creative. We just don't want to work the same muscles every day to fatigue. So we just want to be careful on that side of things. Melissa Breau: How much do fitness behaviors — maybe including or maybe not including warm-up and cool down stuff; I'll leave that up to you — but how much do those skills or those behaviors differ from other skills and behaviors that we teach our dog for sport or just for daily life? Lori Stevens: It's all behavior. How does it differ? I think the way it differs is that we need to be safe. So we need to pay attention to alignment, we need to start on the ground, and what I mean by that is we really need to build a foundation, just like with any sport. You're not going to get past the foundation stuff. You don't put your dog directly on a peanut and start doing things. One of my goals in teaching fitness is to really teach people how to be wonderful, incredibly sharp-eyed observers, and teach them what to look for when they're doing fitness, and how to start on the ground and build up. All these exercises that we do as foundation exercises, they're all going to get harder because we're going to be doing them on the ground first, on a stable platform, then an unstable platform, unstable equipment. Training fitness is not training for a competitive sport, so the pressure isn't the same, but you still have to have a good foundation for it. Just like with agility, you don't go in and start running courses. You teach the dog how to get on the equipment, how to exit the equipment, how to use the equipment safely. This is all a good thing, in my view, and that's why I can call it my sport, because there are a bunch of nuances. But it's also a very joyful thing to do. Not to say that sports isn't joyful. Most people do it because it's a blast. But precision is important in fitness training, just like it's important in competitive sports. It's just different in the sense that it's something you can do year-round. You might change your focus based on what you see in your dog, and all of it is about teaching behaviors, so the better you are at training and timing, the better your fitness work will look. Melissa Breau: You mentioned in there the idea of equipment. Do people need special equipment to do canine fitness? Lori Stevens: I think people like an excuse to buy equipment. Melissa Breau: Fair enough. Lori Stevens: I really do. I think it's funny, I do think they like that. But let's just say they can't afford it or they don't like it. There's a lot of things you can build. You can use things around the house. Do you have to have fancy cones? No, you can use potted plants. Do you have to have a fancy Cavalletti set with cones with poles through it? No, you can use your mops and brooms and put them on cans and use painter's tape. Do you have to buy fancy platforms or an aerobic platform? No, you can use books and bind them with duct tape and put anti-slip material around them. You can use air mattresses and pillows for unstable equipment. I'm betting most people will want to buy a piece of equipment or two, but you don't have to. Let me just add that the outdoors, when you go for a walk in the park, it is full of exercise equipment. I'm going to give you yesterday's example. We haven't gone for our walk today yet. Yesterday's example was we went to the park and Cassie wanted to jump on every park bench. She sees the bench and she starts targeting for the bench, and she wants to go on every single bench. She can put her front legs up to work her hind legs, or she can push up all the way to do a little jump. Then we do uphill sprints because I'm in Seattle, so there's a lot of hills. We do uphill recalls and she sprints up the hill. We hind leg target curbs on our way to the park, and we were walking across a bridge, and I noticed there was this little shelf, a little curb-like thing that you could step up on. So we did ipsilateral work — I'd better say what that is — we did targeting with same-side legs on the little raised part of the bridge, and we turned around, did the other side, and I took a photo of it. We do that in the class, ipsilateral work. We ended with nosework in the park, followed by walking up a very steep hill. And I did a workout with her that day, too. But this was a really good workout just utilizing, there's often a big rock she likes to jump up on, and there's all sorts of logs that are a little slippery right now because it rains here nonstop for ages. There's exercise equipment everywhere. Maybe I should do a class someday on just outdoor equipment. Melissa Breau: That would certainly be cool. It would be interesting. Lori Stevens: Yeah. Melissa Breau: For those people who are interested in buying a couple of pieces of equipment, are there specific pieces you usually recommend for getting started, or good places to get their feet wet? Lori Stevens: First a caveat: You're talking to someone who has a ridiculous amount of equipment, so maybe I shouldn't really be allowed to answer this question. Older dogs do really well with a balance pad, and you don't have to buy it. You can get a balance pad on Amazon for people and it's not very expensive. You can do a lot of things with a balance pad. I like for people to have a Fitbone or two, or a couple of 14-inch discs. Those pieces of equipment, either one, a Fitbone or a 14-inch disc, or two Fitbones or two 14-inch discs, you can do a lot with those. Platforms are super-useful. Where do you buy a platform, right? A lot of people have been making platforms recently, so there's a lot of how-to's on that. But you asked me about buying. An aerobic step bench is actually a useful platform. Michelle Pouliot has a place that she links to that builds platforms according to her specifications, so I've got a couple of those. And then Paw Pods. They're inexpensive and they're a blast. You just have to make sure you get the ones that are nice and soft, so I get the FitPAWS ones. They're really fun, because then you can target one paw at a time, target all four, do turns, and do side steps onto them and all sorts of things. Back onto them, back onto all four, there's a million things you can do with the Paw Pods. OK, I'll stop. Was that just a couple of pieces? Melissa Breau: No, that's excellent. Paw Pods are fascinating. I've never taught a dog to use them, but just in general I've seen some stuff done with them and they're pretty cool. They require a real awareness of where all four of your feet are. Lori Stevens: Exactly, and it is just fun. It's fun to teach and fun to do them. Melissa Breau: I know you have, and you mentioned this earlier too, this idea of fitness foundation behaviors. I know that's part of what's on your syllabus, so I wanted to ask you what you mean by that, and what are some examples of something that counts as a fitness foundation behavior. Lori Stevens: One isn't even a fitness behavior, but having a good nose-to-hand touch where your dog can … so targeting is a big one, so first a nose-to-hand touch, and that's super-useful for positioning. Having an easy go-to default behavior they can do when you just ask them to do something and they don't do it, you can just say, “Touch.” So when you practice that in all sorts of ways, and moving them into position with your nose-to-hand targeting, then you've got something that you can use during fitness training that gets them to a certain place, gets them on something, gets them off of something. Getting off of equipment sometimes can be challenging for some people. So just to continue with the targeting, being able to target with one paw, target something, your hand, with each of your four paws — not your four paws, your dog's four paws — targeting with one paw, two paws up, four paws up, is a useful foundation skill. Hind leg targeting is, in my opinion, hind leg targeting is a useful skill for all dogs, period. Being able to hind leg target something is really important, but then, of course, it's a foundation behavior when you're just teaching a dog to hind leg target a mat. But it becomes more skillful and more of a fitness behavior when you're targeting something unstable and higher up and asking to hold that position and maybe do shoulder exercises with their hind end up. So these things that start on the ground that don't seem like that big a deal, they build and become more difficult and more challenging fitness exercises or strengthening exercises. Backing up, side stepping — both of those are foundation exercises, but side stepping on unstable equipment is a different thing than side stepping with all four feet on the ground. I call them foundations because you're giving the dog the idea of what is side stepping and what is backing up, or asking them to do it on something difficult. Melissa Breau: What are some of the basic exercises that you teach most often? What do those look like, and what are the benefits of doing some of them? Lori Stevens: Let me just start with the simplest concept, and that is, when you put two front feet up on something, your dog is usually, not always, but you can help them shift their weight to their back legs, so the further they're standing up, the less likely that they'll have the weight on their front legs. The benefit of putting two paws up on something and holding is that the hind legs are being used more. If the hind legs are up, then the weight is more down on the front legs, so you're building front leg muscles. Things like tuck sits and sphinx downs require more core work. There's something that is often said in physical therapy, and that is, you stabilize, you strengthen the proximal, which is the core, which is the trunk, to get better distal mobility from a strengthen position. So it's important to be able to have the strength of that stability in your trunk and in your core, your stabilization muscles, your multifidi, your transverse abdominus muscles. It's important to be able to automatically engage those, your serratus, in order to do some of these other exercises. So the benefits of the core work is to be able to do more difficult things safely. The benefits of some of the other exercises we work on, like, let's just say crawling. Crawling, you're down in a sphinx down position and then you're moving forward on the ground. So you're working the back muscles. You're utilizing all four limbs, and those limbs, especially the back legs, really have to work the rotation of the hip. The benefits of these exercises are pretty amazing. Another example would be with the dog standing on all four legs. If you lift the left front leg, you're going to put more weight on the right back leg, so if you've got a dog that's in a habit of standing to the side because maybe they hurt their right knee two years ago, so they got in a habit of unloading that leg, well, lifting the front left paw loads that leg, and in their body they start getting the muscle memory back of, Oh yeah, I can use that leg like I used it before. It doesn't hurt at all. Let me just add that I still think it's important that everybody who does fitness is checked out by a veterinarian, and if they've had any sort of problems that they're cleared for the exercises first. But there's a lot of benefits that come from doing this work that sometimes people don't even see until they start doing it. It's pretty cool. And then there's the behavior benefits, like I said earlier. The body awareness, the bonding that occurs, the trust and joy. And do you know that some of the agility dogs I work with have never slowed down, and they're like, “Ha ha ha, my dog will never slow down,” and they walk over those Cavaletti poles. But slowing down helps dogs go faster, because in slowing down they really get to know their bodies better, and they get to know where they're not just pushing through. Being the little masters of muscle compensation that they are, when you're moving slowly, it all stands out. You have to know what muscles you're using, you have to know where your feet are in a different sort of way, and so the slow work doesn't slow your dog down on the course. It helps your dog because they're even more confident and more aware, I think. Melissa Breau: I wanted to ask if there are differences in the behaviors you'd recommend for daily fitness versus those you use to warm up and cool down, or whether the behaviors are multifunctional. Maybe you could just talk to all that a little bit. Lori Stevens: The exercises are multifunctional, or at least some of them are. In my warm-up I might do a few tuck sits and a few tuck sits to stand. I might do some short recalls. I might do some targeting, some spins, some bows, some Cavalletti work. But I'm not going to do ten tuck sits to stands, three sets, with feet upon a Fitbone, as my warm-up. So the concept of the exercise is the exercise might be the same, but I'll just do two or three of them in a warm-up versus ten of them, really hard, three sets. I want the dogs, as they're warming up, to go through the different movements. I want them to back up and side step, and all that's on the ground during a warm-up, really. I often just come in from a walk, like, I walk Cassie for however long, usually we walk at least 30 minutes, and we walk in the house and she's pretty warmed up, so we just do a few exercises right after that. But it's spins and turns to get the … or spins in each direction, sorry. It's good lateral flexion for the spine, so it warms up the spine muscles. Cavalletti work is a nice warm-up exercise when you're trotting across them, but I'm not going to raise them real high and have a dog do high steps, or side stepping, or backing up over Cavelletti poles as a warm-up, because that's taking it a little bit further. So they're multifunctional, but they're done in the simplest way during warm-ups and cool downs. I probably made that into something longer than it needed to be. In cool downs I'm even going to go lighter and do less in a cool down than I would in a warm-up. Melissa Breau: You mentioned this earlier, and you talk about it a little bit in your syllabus, this concept of alignment. I wanted to ask what you mean by that, and if you can talk a little bit about why it's important. Lori Stevens: It's super-important, and why it's important has to do with the muscles that are engaging. I'm an alignment geek, I admit. If a dog sits with a leg shooting out to the side, or just a super-sloppy sit to the side, the first thing I want to know is why that's happening and let's change it. If a back is roached up or humped up, I want to know is something wrong. Hunched up, back roached, I don't know how you'd say roaching, but hopefully people know what that is. Sometimes what I see is a dog can stand with their feet under them perfectly fine, but as soon as they step up on a platform, their back feet go really wide, or their front feet go really wide. Have you ever seen people that are standing with their legs really wide? They're not using their core. They're just creating this super-broad base that they don't have to use any muscles. I mean, you have to use muscles to stand, but it's a rather lazy, non-core way of standing. Sorry if you're thinking, I do that all the time! So what I'm looking for is that dogs are using the muscles I expect, they have nice, long spines, neutral necks, their tail is not tucked. If the dog's tail is tucked — some dogs tuck their tails a lot — but if the dog's tail is really tucked and their legs are wide, then I think either, They're not comfortable standing like this. Maybe we're standing on something a little bit too high. Maybe for one reason or another they might or might not be hurting. It's really hard to tell because you can't ask. So I want to see if we can change their position in a way that puts them in better alignment and if they're comfortable doing that. Now if the dog regularly really goes wide in the back, I know how to encourage them to have their legs under them, but if I all of a sudden start doing the exercise with their legs in, they might be using muscles they have never used before. So I have to really be careful with not just bringing their legs in and then doing a million exercises, because the dog needs to get used to using those new muscles. So anyway, alignment is a really, really big deal. It's just safe. It's safer. There's no reason to do things with improper alignment. It's the same thing in human training as well. Melissa Breau: I'll let you talk a little more about the class specifically. I know it's called Helping Dogs Thrive: Fitness In Five, and it's in February, so lots of f's. What does it entail, what is it going to look like? Do you want to just talk us through a little bit? Lori Stevens: It's going to be fun, it's going to be educational, it will benefit your dog and help him in sports. At the end of, so every week, I think this time I'm going to release everything the first day of the week. You'll have lectures that will tell you a bit about why I want things to go a certain way, or things to keep in mind, or learning about fitness. So I'll have lectures. Then I'll have exercises, and I'll say how to get the behaviors, what they're good for. I'll say the setup, what you need in your environment, the instructions, the number of repetitions and sets, I'll have video of the exercise. So we'll do that. And then, at the end of every week, I'm going to have something called The Five-Minute Workout, it's just called Five-Minute Workout. I'm not going to create the five-minute workout. However, I'm going to give everybody the tools to create their own five-minute workout. So you can imagine what the homework will be. The homework will be showing the exercises, or for sure showing videos of the exercises that you're having trouble teaching. But also I'm going to want to see parts of the five-minute workout. The first week, you're learning how to do a five-minute workout. You're not all of a sudden, “Here's my five-minute workout.” It's going to build across the weeks, and every week your five-minute workout can incorporate, like, let's just say we're in Week 3. Your five-minute workout can include the exercises from Week 3, 2, and 1, so we can get creative and more mixing and matching. Anyway, that's basically how the class is laid out. I'm going to have lectures on things like raising criteria. I'll talk about the benefits, the kinds of movements, the anatomical terminology, like what is cranial and what's caudal, what's lateral and what's medial. I'll talk about exercise frequency, repetitions, durations, and sets. I'll talk about physiological issues, muscle actions. So there's things I'll just talk about, but then there's the exercises, so people will have both. They'll learn about fitness and they will learn the exercises. Melissa Breau: They'll learn both the whys and the hows. Lori Stevens: Yeah. Melissa Breau: I think you hit on the things that people are most likely to have questions about. I feel like anytime people talk about this stuff, it's like, “OK, but how much do I do? How long do I do it?” and all those pieces. Lori Stevens: Yeah, right. Exactly. And it's really different from the Aging Dogs class. In the Aging Dogs class, depending on the age of the dog, for sure, I'm not always this picky about everything. I'm likely to be a little bit more picky about alignment and how we're doing the exercise than I am in the Aging Dogs class. It all depends on the dog, but when you're working with a 16-year-old dog, teaching him fitness exercises, you're going to go really slowly, give that dog the time to learn them, and you're not going to be super-picky about, you're going to be as picky as you can be about alignment, but it's different. Melissa Breau: You hit on something there, and I didn't tell you I was going to ask you this, but you brought it up and I think it makes sense to maybe talk about it for just a quick second. Is there a type of dog that is a good fit for the class, or maybe isn't as good a fit for the class? Lori Stevens: I would say if it's a dog that … OK, first of all, if it's a puppy and the growth plates aren't closed yet, then puppies probably should not take the class, because everything about repetitions and sets aren't going to apply to the puppy. Somebody could take it if they have a puppy. I recommend they audit it. Then, when their dog's growth plates close, then they can start applying it, or they can take it again later. It's a lot of material. You could audit it, then take it later, and still go, “Oh, I don't remember doing this.” If your dog's coming off a pretty serious injury and you've got contraindications, things you really shouldn't be doing, maybe don't take it at Gold. Maybe just audit it. Check with your vet. It's different if you're coming here and you've been released from the rehab vet to come to me to do exercises. But if you are taking this as a fitness class, I'm going to assume your dog is pretty healthy. Other than that, pretty much all dogs can take it. For sure the dogs that are pretty mobile that have been in my Aging Dogs class, they can take it. They may not be able to do everything, but the ones that are pretty mobile, there's some I have in mind that could definitely take it. But if you've got a dog that can hardly move, this will be challenging, is my guess. But there's always something, you know? I have to do some harder exercises for the dogs that are more performance dogs. They're strong and they're used to doing things. And then you can always just stick with the basics and build really, really gradually until you're ready to go up a level. So it really depends. Melissa Breau: If people have questions, they can message you, right? Lori Stevens: Whatever people have, yeah. I think it's going to be a well-attended class, based on the interest I've seen so far, so I hope. It should be really fun. It should be a very positive experience for the dogs and people. Melissa Breau: Well, thank you so much for coming back on the podcast, Lori. This is fun to learn a little more about this stuff, and I feel like every time we talk about it, I'm like, Hmm, I really should be doing that. So thank you for coming back on and talking through this with me. And thank you to all of our wonderful listeners out there for tuning in. We'll be back next week, this time with Chrissi Schranz to talk about building reinforcers and recall training. If you haven't already, I hope you'll subscribe to our podcast in itunes or the podcast app of your choice so our next episode will automatically download to your phone as soon as it becomes available. CREDITS: Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzi for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty-free by BenSound.com; the track featured here is called “Buddy.” Audio editing provided by Chris Lang. Thanks again for tuning in -- and happy training!

SUMMARY: At FDSA, Andrea Harrison teaches classes for the human half of the competitive team. She's an educator who is passionate about all species including dogs and humans. Having lived with dogs her whole life, Andrea was an early convert to positive training. She has taken this message to the media many times including appearances on many TV shows and news programs as well as in print and on the radio. She has explored the science of brain research and worked with people of all ages on being successful and reducing anxiety and stress using her training and counseling, personality typing, and her own experiences.   When it comes to dog sports her competitive addiction is agility. Andrea and her dogs have many titles between them with placements in regional and national competitions. Andrea has experienced animal wrangling for television and more recently has begun to explore scent work. Links Andrea's Website Andrea's Task Cards Next Episode:  To be released 1/05/2018, and I'll be talking to Amy Cook about the science of dog training, so stay tuned! TRANSCRIPTION: Melissa Breau: This is Melissa Breau and you're listening to the Fenzi Dog Sports Podcast brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy, an online school dedicated to providing high-quality instruction for competitive dog sports using only the most current and progressive training methods. Today we'll be talking to Andrea Harrison. Andrea is the people trainer on the FDSA team, working with dog sports teams to help handlers train themselves for better performance. She teaches classes on unleashing your personal potential, mental management, planning, goal setting, and more... and with the new year right around the corner, she's here today to talk goal setting and dog-related new year's resolutions. Hi Andrea! Welcome to the podcast. Andrea Harrison: Hey Melissa. Thank you so much for the invitation. Great to talk to you. Melissa Breau: I'm excited to chat today. To get us started, do you want to just remind listeners who you are and tell us a little bit about the dogs you share your life with? Andrea Harrison: Sure. I'm Andrea Harrison. I've been doing the mental management stuff in some capacity in my life professionally for nearly 30 years. I can't believe it. The dogs we're currently living with has changed a bit since the last time I was on the podcast, Melissa. We lost two of our older dogs. Melissa Breau: I'm sorry. Andrea Harrison: Yeah, it's hard. It happens to everybody, but it's never easy. Now we're living with Sally and Thea, our senior dogs, and they're the two dogs that have done the most competitively. Sally was in a feature film. They're the dogs who really push my dog training along. Then we have my husband's Golden Retriever, Samson, who is his dog very much. I try to keep hands off, although it's hard sometimes because he's lovely and really athletic, so I sneak out and do some stuff with him sometimes, but he's Tom's dog, I leave him alone as best as I can. He's the farm dog. We also have two younger dogs, Yen, who is a toy American Eskimo, and Dora, who is a feral little Cairn terrier mix. They're both great and lots of fun, and they basically bum around the farm, keeping me company, and I get my eye on them, which we'll chat about in a bit, I think. Melissa Breau: To jump right in, are there benefits to having set goals for our dog sports? Andrea Harrison: There are so many benefits to goal setting, and I think when we're talking about dog sports, one of the really important things to remember is goals can actually give you power. And I don't mean power in a dictator sense in an all-controlling way. I mean power of ourselves. Power of understanding that we are good enough and strong enough and competent enough. So many of us in dog training land look to someone else and admire them, and wish we were them, and perhaps have a little envy or jealousy. The goal setting that we do can give us the strength to do our own thing, to manage our own expectations, to create training plans, to create competitive goals, all of those kinds of things. So when I talk to people about goal setting, I try to remember to focus on goals, and FOCUS is one of my silly acronyms I like to use. The F stands for facing the present. You never want to dwell on the past, and you never want to just dream of the future. Goals give you the opportunity to focus on and face the present moment, because you look at where you are right now and determine what your goals will be. They let you offer a vision, so you decide, are your goals going to be around structure and plans, or are your goals going to be around skills and those sorts of things. So they give you that vision through offering it to you. C I think of as being for clarity. Goals will bring you clarity around what you want to do. If you want to train your dog to do draft titles and you get yourself sucked into doing obedience fronts, that's not going to be that helpful to you. So if you have good goals, you'll find it's easier to find clarity around what to do and those steps to build. I use the U for understanding the choices and priorities that you make. Say you're looking at what class to take next term at Fenzi, as an example. We all know it's hard to pick. There are so many great choices and we get ourselves spun. If you'd taken the time and done some goal setting, you can actually see which of the classes will help you move forward with your goals and which of the classes that you need. So to be able to understand the choices and set your own priorities can be really important too and really beneficial. And then of course when you achieve your goals, you get both success and satisfaction from them. People laugh at me when I say one of the reasons to goal set is to reach success and satisfaction, but it's so important. So many people don't internalize their own worth, and if goals give you a way to internalize your worth and feel better about yourself, that's a really good thing. So I think goal setting is a really important skill to develop, and I think it can add a lot to us as multi-dimensional positive dog trainers. Melissa Breau: To reiterate that acronym one more time: F is facing the present, O is offering vision, C is clarity, U is understanding, S is success and satisfaction. Andrea Harrison: Exactly. Melissa Breau: Excellent. That's great. I think that's really helpful for people to have that to keep in mind as they go through that process. Andrea Harrison: Exactly, and that's the thing. It gives you a way to break it down to remember it, because you're like, “Oh, goal-setting, it's too much work and you have to think too hard.” You know, you wake up in the morning and drive to work, and you start thinking about a goal, and the phone rings or whatever, and you get distracted. Why would you go back to it? Well, focus. Remember FOCUS and focus on those goals. Melissa Breau: Right, right. I think people probably set goals that require their dogs to learn new skills when it comes to dog training, or to achieve specific things, like in their first OTCH or what have you… but since we're relying on another being, our dogs, what special considerations should we be keeping in mind as we set those goals? Andrea Harrison: Such an important question, and I think the thing I want all of my students, and I hope all of the FDSA students and everybody listening, to remember is that the dogs don't get a say in the goals we set for them. My little Chihuahua, Thea, I wanted her to do agility. She's a Chihuahua, she weighs 6 pounds, agility was not really her thing. She's quick, she's a character, she bombs around the field, but every different teeter I put her on dropped at a different rate of speed, even though they're not supposed to, and she had a couple of quite scary fly-offs. What I did was I started running her in classes that didn't have a teeter. My goal maybe was to do some more advanced agility titles with her, but my goal was to enjoy agility with her, and she did very, very well as long as she wasn't getting on strange teeters. Strange teeters were scary for her, and they were dangerous, and because I didn't let my own personal goals supersede her need to be safe, it allowed us to both enjoy a sport I really love. So you've got to remember the dog didn't get a say in your goal. If you would run if you were sore and achy, but your dog is sore and achy, it might not be a good day to run, because your dog doesn't have the same goals as you. When you look at that, you alluded to it earlier, too, this concept I talk about all the time, the difference between a process goal and an outcome goal. The outcome goal is getting the OTCH, it's getting the ribbon, it's going to Nationals, it's coming first at Nationals for on the podium or whatever, it's those big sort of ribbon goals. That's what I think of when I talk about outcome goals. And process goals are all the little steps that get you there. So a process goal might be training at least three times a week, or teaching my dog to find three different scents, or all of this sort of step-building goals. So when you're thinking about dog training, make sure that you're remembering to build more process goals than outcome goals. I'm not opposed to outcome goals, but the process goals will help you and your dog reach the outcome goal anyhow, and they're a little bit fairer for your dog, given that your dog doesn't have a say in the goal setting. The weekend warriors who say, “I'm going to a trial on Sunday, and I'm going to start training Friday night, and training like mad Friday and Saturday,” they're not doing themselves nor their dogs any favors by that kind of goal setting. A systematic method of goal setting that includes process goals as an actually defined piece of the process are going to get you much, much further than just ping-ponging around from outcome goal to outcome goal and getting frustrated when you and your dog aren't achieving them the way you want. Melissa Breau: You mentioned outcome and process goals, and you got a little bit into my next question, which is how can people be smart about the goals they set for themselves and their dogs? Is there more you want to get into there? Andrea Harrison: Well, yeah, because I think you want to remember that process goals allow you to learn. Through the mistakes that you make, through the opportunities that you get through process, through watching what happens, that lets you learn the most from the goal-setting process. Outcome goals are around performance and they're important too, but outcome goals really are an opportunity to perform and show what you know. So when you're thinking about smart training, it's about picking the model goal setting that's going to work best for you. I'm always happy to share, there are hundreds of different kinds of goal setting models, but a really easy one is the smart goal setting. You hear about it all the time, and that's another acronym that's been around forever. There are some issues with it, but for people who have never goal set before, it can be a good place to start. It looks at having specific goals that are measurable, achievable, relevant, and timely, and those are each of the smart: S-M-A-R-T. And so a specific goal would be: I want Dora to do a dog walk. Measurable: Can she do a dog walk when I'm standing behind, at the side, or recalling her over it to me? Is that achievable for her? Yeah, she's confident on all kinds of shaky surfaces, she's absolutely fine with that. Is it relevant? Well, I like agility, so yeah, for me it is. Is it timely? Yeah, she's a mature little dog, she's still young enough to be fit, all of those kinds of things. So smart goals can give you a nice framework. It can be an intelligent way to look at goal setting. You want to make sure that you're making your goals positive, that you can choose to be positive about your goals and make them changing and affirming, as opposed to negative in things that you're likely to fail at. Some people will set a goal of “I don't want my dog to bark at strangers.” That's a good goal: I don't want my dog to bark at strangers. A better goal for many of the goal setting experts would be to frame it as “I want my dog to walk quietly beside me down the street.” So you can take that negative goal and turn it into a positive goal. That's one thing to keep in mind when you're trying to be intelligent about how you goal set. Also think about making intrinsic goals. When we get into goal setting, we often set our goals for someone else. So we might think, Oh the breeder would love it if I had a versatility title on this dog, or My husband says I'm spending so much money on dog training; I really should bring home some ribbons to show for it, or whatever. We intrinsically tend to set our goals, and that's why I like process goals, too — because they remind us to remember to be internal, set our goals in an intrinsic sense. You need to goal set for yourself. Not wholly — balance is OK — but make sure that you've got that balance, that you're remembering that you matter in this goal-setting regime that you're setting up, too. Melissa Breau: So for those out there, it's SMART: specific measurable, achievable, relevant, and timely. Was that it? Andrea Harrison: Correct, yeah. Melissa Breau: All right. I'm taking notes as we go through so I can remember some of the acronyms. Andrea Harrison: You're good! The acronyms — not everybody does them. They may or may not work for you, and that's fine. But I'm finding more and more people the acronyms help them hang on to stuff. That one I did not come up with, but I'm trying to create other ones around some of the work that I do to help people who are figuring that stuff out. Melissa Breau: It helps it stick in your head when you can remember a single word and you go, “Oh wait, I'm missing something, what was the M again, OK.” So, I know that they say something like 80% of New Year's resolutions tend to fail by February – I wanted to address that a little bit. How can people who set a goal for themselves — a good goal for themselves, following the guidelines you laid out — how can they stay motivated past February, hopefully all the way through the year? Andrea Harrison: A few things, and we're lucky with our FDSA community because we've got a natural accountability system, partnership. If you're working on your TEAM titles, you've got the TEAM group. If you're working in a class and working through your bronze, you can post in your local group. There are lots of opportunities for that, and that's a really important thing. People need to remember to do that. But one of the things is to take your time and plan your goal. So here we are sitting on December 26 or whatever, and this will come out at the end of the week with hardly any time before New Year's to do our goal. People will be like, “Oh my god, I didn't goal set yet! I want to goal set!” And they'll jump into it and … don't. Stop, take your time, reflect around what matters to you, talk to an instructor you like or a training buddy already, and figure out what realistic goals are. If we set unrealistic goals, we will fail. We're setting ourselves up to fail when we do that. You're much better to invest the front-end time into making your goals realistic and appropriate for you, and attainable for you in the moment — and we can talk more about that — but make sure that you've got a way to plan those goals that are sensible for you. Then make sure you've got a system to record-keep, so you know if you're meeting those goals or not, or where you've got some holes, the accountability piece. I suggest people take the occasional goals class just to build in a little bit higher degree of accountability. If they haven't tried it yet, it can be a really good thing. An in-person a class, if you're in an area where that's possible. Something to look forward to. For me, I like going to clinics and seminars sometimes just to remind myself. It reminds me to try and make sure I'm ready for it, and I think that can be a helpful thing. Identify and accept your flaws when you're thinking about motivation. Not all of us are equally good at things. If your February's going to be crazy and you get derailed a little bit, that's OK. You don't need to be perfect every day, all the time. If your flaw is that you train in short, intense bursts, make sure your goal reflects that you're better off training intensely six days and then taking four days off, or whatever it is. So know who you are. Spend a little bit of time identifying who you are as well. And then, of course, with motivation you always want to know which of direction, intensity, and persistence are your downfall. Direction is your developing the plan, intensity is how often you'll do it, and persistence is how long you'll stick with it. If you know which of those three things is your biggest issue in motivation, it can help you figure out how to overcome that. Even sometimes knowing just that that's your hole, you can be like, “Ah, I just can't get off the couch tonight. Oh, wait, my direction's failing me and I set those goals on purpose. Let me get up and go to it.” Or “I trained three times last week. I'm not going to train this week at all. Wait a minute. That's persistence. I need to get up and get back to it.” So often, just by understanding ourselves, we set ourselves up to be more successful, in this particular regard, anyways. Melissa Breau: You mentioned setting goals that are attainable for you in the moment. Do you want to go into that just a little bit more, since it came up? Andrea Harrison: Sure. Attainable for you. So what I'm saying is, if you want … you said your OTCH, and that's a huge deal in obedience. I hadn't realized until I started working with somebody who's well on her way to it. She wanted her OTCH, and she and I spent quite a long time figuring out what her realistic timeline was for it, because so much of that is out of your direct control. You can't say you will get that in six shows, because it depends on who else is at your show, or twenty shows or whatever it is from where you start. So you have to make sure you build in a little bit of what I would call a buffer. So you think it would take you twenty trials to get it from where you are right now, I would say to you, “Give yourself thirty shots at it.” If you get there faster than you thought, that's OK. It's good. No problem. You can always adjust a goal. Goals are highly adjustable. They're designed to be adjustable. So if you're reaching it already, that's great. But if you had said to yourself you're going to get your OTCH in fifteen, and you needed every one of those fifteen trials to be completely successful and win the class and all that stuff, then you're going to be really disappointed when you get to trial 14 and you realize you actually still need 13 trials. You're going to feel like a huge failure. So you want to make sure that when you're setting attainable goals, and that's one of the reasons I said talk to your instructors and your friends, because sometimes we get rosy-colored glasses. We're like, “Oh, oh, oh, I can do this! I can do this! This is great!” And then somebody will say, “Mmm, you know, three months isn't a lot of time when you live in a place where …” — well, for me, there's major snow — “ … you might get snowed in and not be able to get to a trial.” “Oh yeah, I hadn't thought of that.” You have to make the whole picture, and the more people you can draw into helping you with that, the easier it's going to be for you in the long run. Melissa Breau: The other thing you mentioned was record keeping, and I know that's a topic that comes up over and over again in the alumni group, that whole tracking your training process, or your training progress, and how to do it, and what are the advantages of it. People share their whiteboards, or their bullet journals, or all sorts of stuff. So I wanted to ask what recommendations do you have for people interested in tracking their progress or coming up with a system? Andrea Harrison: I love this question because it goes right to the heart of me, because my answer is, it depends, and it depends on what works for you. You can set up a really, really simple system that is literally putting a plus, a minus, a plus — it went really well — a minus — it wasn't such a great day — or a big fat zero with a line through it that you didn't train at all that day. You can do that on a calendar on the wall in your kitchen, and that is record keeping. That's legitimate record keeping. You can say to yourself, “I'm going to video every session I do on Friday nights.” And whenever you remember to train on Friday night, you video it. That's record keeping. Those are legitimate forms of record keeping, and they might be what you want to do. That's simple, simple, simple, and it's fine. You might want to do something a little more medium, where you've got a blog going, or you've started a tiny little Facebook group with you and two of your friends and you share your successes, or you write on the backs of agility maps how the run went when you show. I had a book full of maps. I still use them. I still set up training based on my book of maps, and I love them. I remember most of my courses that way. There are so many sorts of medium. You might videotape twice a week, or every time you teach something new, or lots of those sorts of things. And then there are really complex systems, like you mentioned bullet journaling. Bullet journaling's hot, hot, hot. People love it. It's great. It's pretty. Lots of people disappoint themselves because they set up these beautiful bullet journals and then they don't keep them. They're colorful. They're great. If it works for you and you love it, great. If you set it up your own way, set it up your own way. You don't have to do it the way anybody else tells you to. It's for you. It's tracking what you want to track. People get confused, like, “Should I have my grocery lists and my dog training in the same journal?” It's up to you. If you want to have your grocery lists and your dog training in the same journal, go for it. If you want to have every dog having their own separate folder, go for it. If it doesn't work for you, you won't use it. With record keeping, almost more than anything else I teach, it has to work for you. So start simply successfully and build from there. The last chat I saw they weren't sharing them, but people share the most beautiful Excel programs that they've set up with the exercises and the dogs and the colors. We've got some really, really talented people in our group who are happy to share stuff, so I love seeing that conversation come up. I sit back now because people know I've got folders and folders of bookmarks and stuff, but people are all doing all kinds of different things, and if it works for you, great. If it isn't working for you, don't beat yourself up. Stop, think, try something else. There's no failure in not setting up a record-keeping system that works for you the first time you try, or the second time, or the fiftieth time. My record keeping has changed so much over the last 15 years of dog training. I can't even tell you all the different systems I've used, because they're different times in my life. It's busier and less busy, so I work and I do it and it's great, but it has to work for you in that moment. Melissa Breau: You touched on this a little bit in there, but I know for a lot of people, the hardest part of all of that — achieving a goal, tracking it, anything — is when something happens and they miss a day, or life intervenes and maybe they miss a few days… so I wanted to address that too. How can people recover if they do fall off the bandwagon, or if they wake up one morning and realize they have gotten off track and haven't been working on their goal the way they originally envisioned? Andrea Harrison: It's such an important thing. I mean, life happens to us all. No matter how good your goals are, no matter how clear your vision is, life happens. I had a relative diagnosed with cancer, got a call at a trial, left the trial, didn't do competitive agility for four months, that was just my reality. I beat myself up about it — this was a long time ago — I beat myself up about it and was really upset and mad at the money and the training and all of that. At the end of the day, it didn't matter. I went back to agility, loved it, hit my podium finishes, and did just fine. You have to accept that those sort of throwaway days will happen. Sometimes it's a throwaway week or a throwaway month. We do this for fun. The dog sports are about fun, and if we're in a place where it isn't fun, we need to stop and regroup and rethink and plan it out. Imperfect action, though, is better than no action, so if you find that you're stalling out just because you've had a few bad days and you don't know how to get going again, grab a toy and go play, grab a clicker and go teach something, watch a shaping video and try it yourself. Do something. I would rather see someone take imperfect action than just be stalled. If there is a place for that. If there is no place for you mentally, that's OK too, but it's a separate issue right there. There are two reasons life happens to us: one is we can't overcome it, and one is we get so down on ourselves we can't. And when you're that down on yourself, remind yourself of why you're doing it. Put a picture of a ribbon … hang a ribbon on your bathroom door so you'll see the ribbon and be like, “Oh yeah, I want to do that.” Put Denise's book right front and center and think about telling her that what you're actually achieving that day. Jump on the FDSA thing and say, “Hey, I'm feeling down,” and I guarantee you fifty people are going to say, “Hey, it's OK. I've been there too.” We've all been there. Get out there and get training. Have fun with your dog. Use those days to reclaim. I talked a little bit earlier about power, goals giving us power. Those days actually give you a funny sort of backwards opportunity to reclaim that power, because you're busy feeling down about yourself, and if you can get yourself to train for just five minutes … I'm not talking about a great training plan that catches up on all the process goals that you missed last week. I'm saying spend five minutes doing something with your dog. That gives you that little bit of power back, and then you can go on and do a little bit of power again so you can build. Take one tiny, tiny, small, imperfect step forward when it's not working very well, and then you will find that you will be able to make sense of it. If your training is getting derailed, though, and that's why you have stopped, that's OK, and that's important to stop and redress. You want to look at your goals and make sure they are in fact realistic and measurable and achievable for you in that time, and relevant to what you want to do, and you might need to regroup and change your goals a bit. Sometimes when we get stalled out it's because the goals we're working on aren't really the goals we should be working on. So remember that nothing could be a good choice in that situation. So you've gotten really mad at your dog the night before and you've done something you aren't proud of, then you might need to stop and regroup and reassess what your goals are, and that's OK too. Again, you're a human being. We're all human beings. We're not perfect. Melissa Breau: You said something in there that I love, and it's just that idea that we do this to have fun with our dogs, and ultimately if that's not happening, something's wrong, and it's worth taking some time off for rethinking those goals or looking at things again. I just think that's important for people to hear and to recognize. I just like that line. Andrea Harrison: Yeah. It's so important. To me, it's the heart of why I do what I do. My dogs are the good thing in my life, and I know that's true for many of us. So I'm glad it resonated with you. Melissa Breau: Despite our best efforts, sometimes we just don't achieve our goals. It just doesn't happen. Do you have any tips for when that happens, handling it, handling the disappointment and those feelings of having failed, or of failure? Andrea Harrison: Of course I do! This is my bread and butter! This is what I do. And I can hear half my students laughing, going, “Oh, I know what she's going to say.” I've got some new stuff for some of you coming up, I promise. But when that happens to you, I want you to really stop and think, is this goal too much for you right now? And if it is too much for you, that's OK. I often teach people to frame their goals around “at leasts.” Instead of saying, “I'm going to train five times a week,” we'd much rather someone say, “I'm going to train at least four times a week.” You set your goal for what you think it is, and then you backup a step. And then, if you find you're only training three times a week, you say, “I'm going to actually train at least twice a week.” So as soon as you start to feel that sense of disappointment and failure, reword your goal, rework your goal a little bit, and give yourself a bit of a break. I already talked that we are humans. You need to balance that fun in the work piece. You want to make sure that fun and work are in good balance. In my blog you'll see I strike out training and work. Years and years ago I started striking them out and put play, because really that's what I do. I play with my dogs, and we get some training done, and we have lots of fun doing it. That's been a very basic philosophy of mine for a long, long time. So that balance is super-important. Here's a growth mindset. We can have these fixed minds. That's where we think this thing is going to be the way it is forever, and our brains are really very changing, they've got great plasticity, they're very accommodating, so remember that, and remember not yet doesn't mean never. I love that we use “not yet” in the Team stuff, because it's so true in all of life. If you didn't get that cue that you wanted, it doesn't mean you're never going to get that cue. It means you didn't get that cue right then — not yet. So not yet is not never. And mistakes are learning. I say it all the time, and I feel like it's so trite to say it, but it's so true. Look for the learning in the mistake that you make and embrace it. You aren't going to get the opportunity to learn that any other way other than through the mistake you made. If it's an error of enthusiasm, as I like to call them, that's great. Celebrate it. If it's another kind of error, if you over-trained your dog and they're tired at the trial, or you set up beside the wrong dog and your dog snarked at them and you were asked to leave the show — which is terrible, but it happens — then you know, OK, I need to be more careful about where I set up the next time. No matter how big and bad and awful it feels in that moment, Andrea's Rule of Five, kick it in: Is it going to matter in five minutes, five hours, five days, five years? At what point is this thing not going to have such a devastating impact on you? We take things so very, very personally sometimes, and ultimately it really isn't personal. Most of what happens around us is not personal to us. Even our own failures in some way are just circumstances happening to us. Bad things happen to good people, and if it's a bad thing, I'm sorry, and I'll be commiserating, but I'm not going to say to you, “This is the end of the world,” because in all likelihood it probably isn't. Melissa Breau: I think the other piece of goal setting that we haven't touched on is the pressure that sometimes comes with trying to achieve big goals. If someone is feeling stressed out about what they want to achieve, how can they manage that in a way that's healthy and not destructive or beating up on themselves? Andrea Harrison: That's a really good question, and it's so important to access your toolbox Most of my classes talk about a toolbox, and these few things I'm thinking of as we chat are things that try them out, test them, see if they work for you. If they work, put them in the top drawer of your toolbox so you can use them when you feel stressed and pressured. Of course I've talked about breathing before, I think, and there are two easy breathing techniques. I am, where you breath in and you think I am, and as you breathe out, you think the good thought, so I am a good dog trainer, I am confident, I am successful. Whatever any of those things are, that I am breathing is very useful. Count breathing can also calm your nerves because it makes you focus. It's a mindfulness practice. You breathe in for a count of four and breathe out for a count of five, so it goes in, two, three, four, out, six, seven, eight, nine. If you can't breathe for that long, you can do it shorter. Breathe in one count less than you breathe out, so you could breathe in, two, three, out five, six, seven. That can really calm you down quite quickly and give you a thing... Write down what you're worried about. Write it out and then tear it up into tiny little strips of paper, or burn it, gives you great satisfaction sometimes, if it's safe. If you're frustrated or you're angry about something, that can be a very helpful tool. Write it down. Throw a dance party for yourself. You're mad, you're grumpy, you're unhappy, you're sad, whatever. Crank up a tune you love and bop around the house. Your dog will think you're nuts, your spouse might think you're nuts, but get your frustration out. Shake it off. A grounding thing people can try when you're absolutely shaking you're so upset, think about how your feet are touching the ground. Really feel your feet. And in fact you can teach yourself to use that as an anchoring thing when you're standing still and you can't get away. For most of us, movement is a release, just like with our dogs. So if you can move, it's going to help more. You can shake your hands, or push your arms together, or any one of those things. But if you can't do any of that and you have to just stand there, really concentrate on how your toes are touching in your shoes, and your shoes are pressing into the floor, and feel that root to the ground. That can be a really nice tool. I talked briefly about my Rule of Five already. You can strike a pose, very Ann Cuddy, power person. I had lots of fun talking about striking Wonder Woman poses and various poses in mirrors. Go sneak into a bathroom, strike a power pose, and then away you go. That can just root you and reground you a little bit. Another one I like is something I call “traffic light.” When you're getting tense and fried and upset, think about a traffic light. Red: stop. Amber: think about it and make a plan. Green: try your plan. It's a very quick way to just go “traffic light,” and you can actually run through it in, like, 10 seconds sometimes, from red to green, and then reset yourself. It's just a way to reset, and then of course reframe, and whatever's going on can be really helpful, too, when you're feeling really stressed out. I'm stressed, but I'm remembering to do my breathing exercise. I'm stressed, but Andrea would tell me I'm learning from this. Somebody messaged me once, I laughed and said, “Did it work?” And they said, “Yes, it did.” So however you can reframe it. I didn't have a really good show, but I got out of housecleaning today. Whatever it is that will work for you, go ahead and steal it and use it. Reframing can be a very useful tool. But the thing about all of these tools, Melissa, I wouldn't want anyone to forget is they all take practice. You can't just grab one on the fly and go, “Yeah, yeah, I like that ‘feel your feet' thing,” and try to do it only when you're stressed. If it's something that you think might work for you, start trying it now, like any of my tools. I've got hundreds, and I just picked out a few, and I picked out some ones that I hadn't shared in classes very often, if at all, but just to do something a little bit different. But if you don't practice them, they will not work for you in a stressful situation. Melissa Breau: So more to Amy's concept for her management class for managing dogs: you have to practice with the dog so that it becomes second nature before you actually need it in the moment. Same idea. Works on us, too. Andrea Harrison: Exactly, exactly. We're all mammals. Melissa Breau: So I know you touch on a lot of these topics in your “Handle This” class, which is on the calendar for February – and I wanted to ask you to share a little bit about the class and tell students what's in it, tell students what might make them want to take it, that kind of thing. Andrea Harrison: Good question. You know, it's a funny class. When I first developed it, I thought it would be one of the very most popular classes, and it's one of the most intense classes that I teach — and I teach lots of intense classes. People think hard in my classes and I always apologize, “I'm sorry, you're thinking,” and they're always, “No, it's good, it's good.” “But I didn't mean to make you think that hard!” One of the things we get into is creating a master plan, so whatever it is that you've gotten that you want to figure out how to handle. Lots of people come because they're still really nervous in the ring. It was set up to be a follow-up course to All In Your Head, but you don't have to have done All In Your Head anymore to do it. I've figured out how to work through without having to have it. So lots of people who are nervous come into it, or lots of people who are struggling with trial situations, but there are also now lots of people who are just trying to figure out how to get to a show, so they don't even know if they're going to be nervous or not yet because they haven't gone to a show yet. It's become, as well as the nerves piece, it's become setting up a master plan, like, how are you going to get from where you are to where you want to be, applying all of the different things that have come up in Denise's class, and Hannah's class, and all the different classes that you've taken. How are we going to marry them all together into a vision of success for you? There's a lot about change, and being realistic, and adapting to change, and dealing with stressors that come up in your life, but if I was going to give you the one thing, I think it's that ability to create a master plan to bring in lots of different elements. And it's kind of cool because my classes, people come to them from lots of different sports. I have a barn hunt person, a scent work person, an obedience person, an agility person, a drafting person. I usually get lots and lots of variety in the classes, dock diving people have shown up in my classes... so you get to see how all these different sports create these master plans, and sometimes you're able to use ideas from different threads that you can carry over to your sport. So I really like that about my classes. I think it's a quite cool way to do it. The other class I'm running this semester is Unleash Personal Potential, which is the Gold-only class, which is basically whatever people want to do works. The lectures are just around mindfulness, but people do exactly what they want, so we might have somebody trying to peak for performance in March, or somebody who wants to know how to help their boyfriend like their dogs better, or somebody who wants to get a job in a dog-related field. Lots and lots of different things have come up in the class, and it's a lot of fun too. It's Gold only, and you have to have taken some class from me at some level to get into it. Melissa Breau: Alright, I have one final question for you, Andrea… I wanted to ask you if you have any dog-related resolutions or goals that you're planning on trying to achieve in the next year — at least any that you care to share? Andrea Harrison: Great question. I always have goals, and I didn't … I don't think I blogged about it yet this year. If you look at December in my blog, you can see my goals most years. My goal for Sally and Thea is to keep them as healthy and happy as possible. Sally's almost 12 and Thea's 15, and they both have some chronic disease issues that mean they probably shouldn't still be with us. So that's my goal for the old guys. But the cobbler's children, the two young dogs I've got, Dora and Yen, I'm quite determined to get Yen going, and I haven't quite decided whether that means in public doing scent work or agility, or maybe both. She's quite good at both. She's a little flying squirrel, so I've got to figure out how to manage the flying squirrel, but apart from that, that's my goal with her. Dora, I would like very much, because she's feral and quite reactive and quite a character, I'm going to continue working on some of my online stuff. She's working on her trick titles and has been doing quite well at them. I was thinking of adding parkour to it as well. And then personally, because I like agility and she likes agility, we'll do some agility at home, because one of my real goals is to get out and keep doing some personal growth stuff for me, so attending some seminars, attending some workshops. I hope I'm going to be, if I'm invited, driving down to camp for one night, and hanging out for the afternoon and overnight and the morning after. That's my intention, so to get to camp to see everybody. That's actually high on the list of my personal dog goals. And yeah, I think it will be a fun year. I'm looking forward to doing lots of stuff. We're also planning on holding an Iron Dog competition here at the farm. So that will be something new for me. Melissa Breau: Oh, fun! Andrea Harrison: We're going to run one, I think, and a couple of FDSA students have offered to help, and I think it'll be great, so I'm looking forward to setting that up. We have over 200 acres, including a lovely hill that's quite steep, so we're going to have options where you can do the Iron Dog thing or do a training thing. You choose your option, so that people will get different points for doing it, and it'll be a little less of a physical challenge if you choose to do the training options all the way along. A nice walk with some training walks. So there's lots going on in my life I'm looking forward to in a doggy sense for 2018. Melissa Breau: I certainly hope you make it to camp, and do you want to mention where you're located, in case there's anybody listening who's close enough to come out for the dog event? Andrea Harrison: Oh yeah, yeah. I'm in Prince Edward County in Ontario, so in between Ottawa and Toronto, pretty well halfway in between Toronto and Ottawa, so a pretty, pretty part of the world. Lots of wineries and craft breweries and art galleries, and lots of things for spouses to do while you play with your dog in the morning. We're a hotbed of tourism here. Oh, and you know something else I forgot to mention when we were talking about when you're down and out and you can't think of how to get going again, people would be more than welcome to pull one of my task cards out of the deck, so I will make sure I send you a link for how they can get a task card to re-motivate themselves. Melissa Breau: Perfect. And just because I know you mentioned your blog earlier, and I'm assuming that would be the best place to get more info on the Iron Dog stuff, but correct me if I'm wrong, do you want to mention what your website is? Andrea Harrison: It's a blogspot. It's Andrea Agility Addict at blogspot, and you'll find it quickly. It's got really good SEO, despite the fact that I've done no work on it, Melissa, you'd be proud of me. Melissa Breau: Excellent. I will include a link to it in the show notes for anybody who wants to go check that out. Andrea Harrison: Perfect.Melissa Breau: Thank you so much, Andrea. I'm really glad you could come back on, and I honestly couldn't think of a better time to talk goals, so thank you. Andrea Harrison: It's always a pleasure talking to you, Melissa, either on- or offline. I love our conversations, and I always feel like I've learned lots too, so thank you so much. Melissa Breau: And thank you, to all of our listeners for tuning in, both this week and every week this year. We'll be back next week, this time with Amy Cook to talk about the science of dog training. If you haven't already, subscribe to our podcast in itunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. And Happy New Years! CREDITS: Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzi for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty-free by BenSound.com; the track featured here is called “Buddy.” Audio editing provided by Chris Lang and transcription written by CLK Transcription Services. Thanks again for tuning in -- and happy training!

SUMMARY: Dr. Patricia McConnell is a Zoologist and Certified Applied Animal Behaviorist who has made a lifelong commitment to improving the relationship between people and animals. She is known worldwide as an expert on canine and feline behavior and dog training, and for her engaging and knowledgeable dog training books, DVDs and seminars. Patricia has seen clients for serious behavioral problems since 1988, and taught "The Biology and Philosophy of Human/Animal Relationships” for twenty-five years at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. Her radio show, Calling All Pets, was heard in over 110 cities around the country, where Patricia dispensed advice about behavior problems and animal behavior research for over fourteen years. She is the author of the much-acclaimed books The Other End of the Leash, For the Love of A Dog: Understanding Emotions in You and Your Best Friend and Tales of Two Species. Her latest book is a memoir that came out earlier this year, titled The Education of Will: A Mutual Memoir of a Woman and Her Dog. Links The Other End of the Leash (blog) The Other End of the Leash (book) For the Love of A Dog: Understanding Emotions in You and Your Best Friend Tales of Two Species The Education of Will: A Mutual Memoir of a Woman and Her Dog Next Episode:  To be released 11/10/2017, featuring Sarah Stremming, talking about effective behavior change. TRANSCRIPTION: Melissa Breau: This is Melissa Breau and you're listening to the Fenzi Dog Sports Podcast brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy, an online school dedicated to providing high-quality instruction for competitive dog sports using only the most current and progressive training methods. Today we have a special guest -- I'm talking to Dr. Patricia McConnell. Although she probably needs no introduction, I will share a bit from her bio. Dr. Patricia McConnell is a Zoologist and Certified Applied Animal Behaviorist who has made a lifelong commitment to improving the relationship between people and animals. She is known worldwide as an expert on canine and feline behavior and dog training, and for her engaging and knowledgeable dog training books, DVDs and seminars. Patricia has seen clients for serious behavioral problems since 1988, and taught "The Biology and Philosophy of Human/Animal Relationships” for twenty-five years at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. Her radio show, Calling All Pets, was heard in over 110 cities around the country, where Patricia dispensed advice about behavior problems and animal behavior research for over fourteen years. She is the author of several much-acclaimed books The Other End of the Leash, For the Love of A Dog: Understanding Emotions in You and Your Best Friend and Tales of Two Species. Her latest book is a memoir that came out earlier this year, titled The Education of Will: A Mutual Memoir of a Woman and Her Dog. Welcome to the podcast, Patricia! Patricia McConnell: Thanks for having me, Melissa. What fun. Melissa Breau: I'm so excited to be talking to you today. To kind of start us out a little bit, can you just share a little bit about the dogs and the animals you currently share your life with? Patricia McConnell: Oh, absolutely. The most important animal is the two-legged one, my husband, my wonderful, accommodating husband who puts up with my obsession for dogs and sheep and cats and animals and gardening. So that's Jim. And so we have three dogs. We have Willie, a 10-year-old border collie who is one of the stars of The Education of Will, and we have Maggie, a 4-year-old border collie who's my competition sheepdog trial right now and the silliest, funniest, most adorablest dog that ever lived, of course, and Tootsie, who's the other most adorablest dog, she's a little Cavalier who was a puppy mill rescue. And we have two cats, Nellie and Polly, and we have 16 sheep. Melissa Breau: That's awesome. Patricia McConnell: Here we are. And we have Teresa the toad, who's living in the cat bowl often, and I could go on and on. We have a little farm, it's about 12 and a half acres, and so there are lots of critters on there, but the family ones I've already mentioned. I'll stop there. Melissa Breau: Excellent. Well, I know that you've shared kind of in some of the other interviews you've done that you've been in love with dogs and behavior for as long as you can remember. So I wanted to ask a little bit about kind of when you decided that was what you wanted to do with your life, and see if you could just share a little bit about those early days. Patricia McConnell: Oh yes, you know, it's almost like a feminist manifesto, because when I was … I was born in 1948, and when I was 5 — there's a story about me being asked what I wanted to do when I was 5, and I said, “I want to marry a rancher,” because in 1953 in Arizona, women made babies and casseroles. They didn't make, they didn't have careers, they didn't, you know, make shopping centers and business deals or even be veterinarians. And so gradually over time I had all kinds of different careers. I moved a lot with my first husband, and eventually I got to the point where I thought, You know what, I'm going to go back to school and I'm going to study animal behavior. And what I envisioned is that I would teach it. I would teach at some small private college, and I would teach animal behavior because I loved animals and I loved behavior. And I finally realized in my 30s, early 40s, you know, this is a way I could really enmesh myself in my passion and what I love. But then I went to an animal behavior society conference — it's a conference of academics, people who study behavior, mostly wild animals, mostly in the field — and I ran into John Wright, who was an academic, actually a psychologist who was an applied animal behaviorist, and so he took all of his training and behavior and used it to help people solve problems with family dogs. And I was like, Oh, really? I didn't know that was a possibility. So it ended up that my colleague, Dr. Nancy Raffetto, and I opened up Dog's Best Friend as a consulting service. Most people had no idea who we were, what we were doing. Nobody did it then. I mean, nobody did it then. People would call us up, Melissa, and say, “Do you guys groom poodles?” Melissa Breau: Oh goodness. Patricia McConnell: Yes. So this was in the late '80s, and this was a really new field. So it all progressed from there, but it certainly wasn't linear, and anybody who's in a path right now of, like, who do I want to be and what do I want to do, or maybe I'm going in a direction that I don't want to go, is don't lose heart. I mean, I didn't get into this until I was in my 40s. Melissa Breau: And you've quite clearly achieved quite a bit of success, so … Patricia McConnell: It's been very satisfying, you know. I feel so lucky. I feel very grateful and lucky and privileged and honored to be able to find the right niche, you know? Yeah. Melissa Breau: I think the rest of us have been pretty privileged that you've decided to do this too, so … Patricia McConnell: Well, thank you. Melissa Breau: So I wanted to ask, you mentioned that, you know, you've been in the field for quite a while, and I wanted to ask kind of how your philosophy is today and maybe a little bit of kind of how even it's changed over that time. Obviously the world is a very different place for dogs. Patricia McConnell: Oh, man, so true. I mean, I've written quite a few places about the first dog training class I went to when I was, I think, probably 19. The dog trainer was a Marine, and he hung a Basenji — as in, with a choke-chain collar — picked the dog off the ground, so all four feet were off the ground, and hung him there until he started running out of breath and was dying. Actually, it was not all that long, shockingly, not all that long ago somebody, a dog died from that and someone tried to sue, except they didn't … they weren't successful because they were told that that was standard in the industry. That was standard practice, so you can't blame the person for doing it. Yeah, so boy, have things changed. Boy, have things changed. My philosophy now is very much along the lines of “least intrusive minimally aversive,” you know, the LIMA protocol that I think is fantastic. I would say 99.95 percent of what I do with dogs is positive reinforcement, and I do use, I will use a correction. I mean, if Maggie starts to eat something I don't want her to eat, sometimes I'll say “Leave it,” or sometimes I'll go “Ah-ah,” you know, and that's positive punishment because I added something to decrease the frequency of a behavior, right. So, but, I think, you know, besides the really important focus that you see now on positive reinforcement, which I think is just so vital, I think interspersed with that, entwined with that, is a change in our relationship and the way we see our dogs. I mean, it was all about dominance before. It was all about control, and you're in charge, and sometimes it was just simply, like, well, you know, “You have to be in charge,” and other times it was suggested as a way, as something your dog needed, you know, the old “Your dog needs you to be the alpha of the pack.” But it was always about control. And now it seems to me, don't you think, it's more with many of us about relationship. They are our best friends, you know. They're great friends of ours, and that's what I want. You know, my dogs have to do what I ask them to do. Sometimes they have to. They have to lie down if they're chasing a rabbit towards the road or something. But I value them as members of my family and friends. I don't think of them as furry people. I think that's disrespectful to dogs. But they are an integral part of my life and my family and my love. Melissa Breau: That's definitely something that is kind of a core part of the kind of Fenzi philosophy, so I mean, I definitely think that we're seeing more and more of a shift to that, obviously. Not everybody's there yet, but hopefully they will be one day, right? Patricia McConnell: Absolutely, yeah, and I think the kind of work that, you know, Fenzi Dog Sports Academy is doing is vital to that, you know? We just, we all need to be out there as much as we can, just spreading the word, because it's, you know, it's not just more fun, because it works better. I just heard, I was just at APDT not too long ago and somebody was … it was Pat Miller was talking about Bob Bailey saying — who was a professional animal trainer, he trained for movies and commercials — and he said, “I use positive reinforcement because it works better,” he said. “I don't do it for welfare, I don't do it to be nice, I do it because it works better and it's more efficient. I would do, if I had used punishment if it worked better in order to do my job, that's what I'd do, you know, but,” he said, “it just, it works better.” But so it does work better, but it's also so much more fun, you know. It's so much more fun to not have to be a drill sergeant in your own living room. Melissa Breau: I did hear that you were awarded an award at APDT. Is that right? Patricia McConnell: I was so honored. They gave me the Lifetime Achievement Award, yeah. Melissa Breau: That's awesome. Patricia McConnell: Yeah, thank you. I was really honored, yeah. Thank you. Melissa Breau: Obviously, you're really well known for your work in dog behavior, but I know from your first book that early on in your career you did quite a bit of research on cues, especially across languages. And I know that cues are always kind of a big topic and of interest to people, so I wanted to ask you to kind of share your top takeaway or two from that work. Patricia McConnell: Oh, thanks for asking, because, you know, that's how I got into this. I mean, I was … I started as an undergraduate looking for a project, a research project. As an ethologist, somebody who studies animal behavior, I had no thought of working with domestic animals or being an applied animal behaviorist. I was working with a professor who worked with fish, and so what I did is … the question at the time that was really hot in the field at the time was, why do animals take the risk of making noise, you know, what are they doing, are they just sort of expressing an emotional state because they can't help it, are they, is there some function of what they do? People honestly were asking questions about why are animals making noise, because it's risky, right, it attracts attention. So I used working domestic animals, the relationship between handlers and working domestic animals, as a kind of a model for that system. So I recorded the acoustic signals from over 110 handlers who work with racehorses and all different kinds of dogs, different kinds of horses, and they spoke, I think I got 16 different languages, and what I found was I found patterns in how people speed animals up and and how they use sound to slow animals down. And so basically what I learned was short, rapidly repeated notes are used all over the world, no matter what language, what field, to speed animals up, and long, slow, extended ones are used to soothe them, and quick, abrupt ones with an instant onset are used to stop them. So, you know, so it's the difference between [makes sound] or [makes sound] right, those are all used to speed animals up. “Whoa, lie down,” soothe, slow versus “Whoa!” to stop a quarter horse, for example. And so yeah, so what I learned was it's not what you say, it's how you say it, and that's had a profound influence on how I work with animals and how I think of how we communicate. Melissa Breau: So how does that kind of continue to influence what you do today? Patricia McConnell: It does professionally and it does personally. So, you know, with clients I was always paying attention, and I think we all are. All good trainers, when we're working with dog owners, we're paying a lot of attention to how people use sound and how they say things, you know. So, I mean, this probably happened to everybody who's listening is you had a client who would say, “Jasper, come!” and Jasper would stop in his tracks, you know. And that was standard obedience, by the way, is to shout it out like that, and to stand really stiff and really still and look straight at your dog and, like, “Come!” you know. And dogs had to get over, like, OK, I guess I'm supposed to come forward, rather than their natural instinct, which is, I clearly should stop right now because they're telling me not to come here. So I pay a lot of attention to how clients would speak, and, you know, I have to work on it too. I mean, I work with working border collies and who are sometimes 500 yards away from you, so you really have to pay attention to tone, you know, and how you sound. I mean, I've learned … Maggie, for example. Maggie's super sensitive and she can get really worried, and so when I ask her to lie down, I say, “Lie down, lie down,” just really sing-songy, really easy, and she's so responsive that she'll do it right away. So both personally and professionally I just pay a lot of attention to that. Am I perfect personally? No, of course not. But the other thing I learned, Melissa, after I finished my dissertation, after I finished all that research on sound, when I started doing dog training classes is I discovered how, yeah, sound has a huge effect on how dogs behave, but they're primarily watching us, and how unaware most of us are of how our … the movement of our body affects dogs. So that's the other big takeaway that I've learned about cuing is that just whether you're leaning forward a half an inch can make a profound difference in whether your dog is comfortable coming towards you, or breaks its stay, or you turn your head away from a dog who's uncomfortable, or stare at it, make it uncomfortable. So, you know, all my training as an ethologist, and study communication and subtle, subtle, tiny, subtle little signals, I think stands everybody who loves dogs in good stead because it's so important to be aware that less is more. The tiniest little change in inflection, the tiniest little movement, can have a huge effect on your dog's behavior. Melissa Breau: And it goes back to, like, the example you mentioned kind of of somebody standing straight up and strict as they yell “Come.” It's not just the language. It's also the body language there that's just so counter, counter to purpose. Patricia McConnell: Yeah, exactly. Melissa Breau: I wanted to make sure we talked a little bit about the new book, because I know there are a lot of people who are very excited that you wrote it. So how does The Education of Will differ kind of from some of the other books that you've written? Patricia McConnell: Oh, well, thanks for asking about it, first of all. It's hugely different. It's … this is a totally different work than I've ever done before. It's a memoir, so it's very personal. It's a memoir about me and Willie. That's why the subtitle — on the hard cover, anyway —  is A Mutual Memoir of a Woman and Her Dog. I intertwine stories about getting Willie as a puppy who came as if he comes straight from Afghanistan with some canine version of PTSD. He was the most, he was fearful, he was sound reactive, he was pretty much a mess as a young dog. He really was. But he also, you know, he was … when he was good, he was like the best dog ever. He has a face on him that can just melt your bones, and he still does. I mean, there's something about Willie's face. That's why the publisher put his face on the cover of the book, which I still am not crazy about because I don't think it tells people what the book is really about. But his face, he's just got the most gorgeous face, and he's so loving and so friendly and so playful, you know. The best of Willie is, like, just the dog everybody wants, but he came with all this baggage, and his baggage, as it turned out, triggered all kinds of stuff that I thought I had resolved from my past. I had a lot of traumas in my past. I was raped, I was molested, I had somebody fall and die, literally out of the sky and, like, fall by surprise out of the sky and fall at my feet and die. Yeah, and you know when things like that happen, it really changes … structurally, physically, changes your brain. I mean, when individuals get traumatized with that kind of a trauma and they can't, they don't, have enough resilience to bounce back from it, it literally structurally, physically, changes your brain structure. Your amygdala gets more active, your hippocampus shrinks, I mean, all kinds of things happen. And so I had my own version of PTSD and I thought I'd resolved it, but when I got this super, super sound-reactive little puppy who, when a butterfly in China came out of its chrysalis, would leap up barking, and it set off, it triggered, all this old stuff and all these old symptoms with me. And so I basically figured out eventually that I couldn't heal Willie until I really healed myself. So he forced me to go farther down and face some of the things I thought I dealt with but I really hadn't finished. So I didn't start writing it to publish it. I actually started writing just segments of it, of some of the traumas that happened to me, as part of therapy, because it's very therapeutic to write out just about anything. I highly, strongly advise it to any of us. I write in my journal almost every morning and I find it so balancing. But so I started … I wasn't going to publish this, Melissa. I was just therapizing myself and trying to get better. And then, as a part of that process, I read a couple of books that literally changed my life. I mean, you know, that sounds, it's used so often and I know we can overuse it, but they really did. That really is how it felt. And I started thinking if I could write this book where I intertwined Willie's story and my story to show people that both people and dogs can, that the effects of trauma on both people and dogs, because dogs can be traumatized, and I think a lot of people don't acknowledge that. Horses too, any mammal, but to also that we are ultimately so resilient, and that if we have the right support around us, people can heal from just an amazing amount of things and so can dogs. So that's why I ended up finishing it, publishing it, and putting it out in the world. Melissa Breau: How are you and Willie both doing today? Patricia McConnell: Oh, we're good, we're good. He's 10. I can barely believe that he's 10 years old. He's really happy. I think he loves having Maggie there. Maggie is great with him. You know, he's so much better now. I mean, he recovered so much. He's still super reactive, but now it's like happy reactive, you know, it's not panic, scared reactive. But he's also … he's not the best dog around other dogs, and so when Maggie came she'd, like, try and play, and he'd get grumpy and, you know, do a little one of those little tiny little, you know, grumpy tooth displays, you know, like, [makes sound] and she literally would be, like, “Oh Willie, come on, let's play,” and you could just see he'd be, like, “OK.” So yeah, they play, he gets to work sheep, he gets, he and I still cuddle, and he gets a belly rub, he's really good, he's really happy, and it makes me really happy, yeah. Melissa Breau: Good. Patricia McConnell: Thanks for asking. Melissa Breau: Yeah. When you wrote the book, what do you hope people will take away from it? I know you mentioned that you wrote it kind of inspired by these other books that changed your life, but when somebody finishes reading the book, what do you hope they've kind of learned or that they walk away with? Patricia McConnell: Yeah, yeah, thanks for asking. I would say, one, that about that resilience, about the fact that it's amazing if you know how to handle it, you know. You have to have the tools, you have to have help, you have to have a village. That if you have help and you know how to handle it, it's astounding how resilient people can be. And I've since heard stories, and we've all heard stories, about people who have been through just unbelievable nightmares and yet they're doing good, you know, like, how do you live through that? So people are really resilient. I really want to emphasize and get out into the world, past sort of the Dog Fancy world, that dogs can be traumatized, you know. I'm sure I don't have to tell you or listeners is that so much of “aggression” and “disobedience” are is basically behavior that's motivated by fear, you know. And I see … I saw a lot of dogs who I think were traumatized, I mean, even just in the dog park they got attacked from behind by some dog and then they become dog aggressive. And so knowing that, you know, this is not about dominance, this is not in the, this is not a bad dog, you know, that we need to be really thoughtful. Veterinarians need to be really aware of how terrifying it can be to a dog to have certain medical procedures, and I think veterinary medicine is starting to come on board, which is really gratifying. Dr. Marty Becker has a book coming out — it's actually available through Dogwise, it's coming out in April commercially or everywhere else — it's called From Fearful to Fear Free, and a lot of what he's trying to do is to change vet clinics so that they're more conscious, you know, using a lot of the kind of methods that Sophia Yin did such a great job of spreading out into the world. So that's another one of the things that I want people to be aware of — that animals can be traumatized and they need understanding. They don't need dominance. They need understanding. But, you know, the last thing that I would love people to get is that we all have stories, you know. We all have stories, and we all have things that we're ashamed of or afraid of. And I'm a big supporter of Brene Brown and her work about facing those fears, about putting light onto some of that, rather than hiding it in the dark. And, you know, we need to be aware of the person we're sitting next to, or the person who was rude in line at the supermarket or something, you know. We don't know their story. And even when people are successful and productive, you know, you don't know. You don't know. So the more empathy and benevolence and kindness we can have to everybody and anybody, whether person or dog, the better the world will be. Melissa Breau: I think that's such, like, a powerful and important message to kind of get out there and think about and to be aware of, not just in your interactions with dogs but also with people. Patricia McConnell: Thank you. And don't you think — and this is an authentic question I'm asking you — maybe because of social media, I don't know what it is about the world, is it in the water, I don't know, but, you know, it's true in many fields, and sort of parts of social behavior of humans, but there is a certain amount, in the dog world, of snarkiness, of, you know, of snappiness, of a lack of real thoughtful, benevolent consideration of other people, and I think that's too bad. I do think it's partly because of social media, but I just want everybody who loves dogs and is promoting positive training with dogs, if we all — and we all need to be reminded of, believe me, I am no saint, I have to take a breath sometimes too — but we all need to remember that no matter what method somebody uses or how much we disagree with them, we need to be as positive with people as we are with dogs. Melissa Breau: I think especially in kind of the sports world, or the competitive world, you've got a dichotomy there between competition where people want to be better than the others around them and they also do have that relationship with their dog, so I definitely do think that there's a snarkiness, and we all have to be conscious of our own behavior and our own words and kind of fight against that a little bit. Patricia McConnell: Yeah, yeah, you know, I don't do, I don't go to agility, I never competed in it, but I don't go. I watch it sometimes, but I don't do it a lot, but I'm in sheepdog handling and, you know, we all know how competitive some people can be. And I love the people who are competitive in a really good way, you know? They want to get better, and they love to, and yeah, it's way more fun to win. I mean, it's way more fun to do well. No question about it. It's way more fun to do well. But overriding all of these has got to be the health and happiness of our dogs and our relationship with them. Melissa Breau: I could not agree with you more. Patricia McConnell: Oh good. Melissa Breau: So I know we're kind of getting towards the end of the call, but there are three questions that I ask everyone who comes on the podcast and I wanted to make sure we kind of got them in and I got your perspective … so to start out the first one is what is the dog-related accomplishment that you're proudest of? Patricia McConnell: Well, you know, I have to separate it out. Personally, I think I'm proudest of giving my dogs a good life. I feel all wussy when I say that. I could just get all soppy and Oprah-ish. But I, you know, I'm not perfect and, I mean, I can beat myself up over things I haven't done perfectly and I could have done better, but I think, in general, I think I've provided quite a few dogs a really, really good life, and understanding them as individuals rather than just dogs and making them fit into some kind of a slot that I wanted them to fit into, so I'm really proud of that. And I also, I guess professionally, I think I'm proudest of combining my respect for good writing and my passion and love for dogs and my interest in science, combining all those three things. I love to read, I love good writing, I don't think anybody needs to hear how much I'm just stupid in love for dogs, and I think science is really important, and I found a way, sometimes, you know, I get on the right track and I combine all those three things in a way that I feel is good enough, and when that happens I feel really good about that. Melissa Breau: I love that, especially the bit about just knowing that you've provided a good life to your dogs. That's such an awesome thing to be proud of. I really, I like that answer. Patricia McConnell: Thank you, thank you. Melissa Breau: So this one may be a hard question, but what is the best piece of training advice that you've ever heard? Patricia McConnell: Oh man, oh wow, oh wow, let's see. Do I have to pick one? OK, I'll be really fast. Melissa Breau: You can share more than one if you want. I'll let you get away with that. Patricia McConnell: Good. The thing that pops up in my mind the first time I hear that is actually … it's not a piece of advice. It's just a saying and it makes me want to cry. I sound like such a crier. It makes me want to cry. The saying is, “We train by regret.” It just hits home so hard to me because I think every one of us who cares deeply about dogs and is really honest, and insightful, and learned, and grows, you know, admits that there's things we've done that we wish we'd never done and, you know, some of them are just tiny little stupid things. It's like, “Oh, I can't believe I didn't think of that,” or, you know, so I think that's a really important saying. But I think that the most important part about it is to remind all of us to be kinder to ourselves. I think a lot of the people I work with who are progressive dog trainers who just adore their dogs and move heaven and earth for them, we're so hard on ourselves. Don't you think? I mean, we're just, you know, I work with clients who are just … they're just, oh, they're being so hard on themselves because they haven't been perfect. They made this one mistake and it's like, oh man, you know, we are all human here. So I think that strikes home with me a lot. And I guess the other just sort of solid, quick, concise piece of advice is basically “Say less, mean more.” I just made that up, but I've heard people say versions of that, you know, so basically another version is “Just shut up.” I think, I mean, you can hear I like to talk, right, so I can get badly with my dogs, and I think it's confusing and tiring to our dogs. And I think, you know, some of the people who, you know, those people who dogs just don't ever want to leave, you know, they meet them, and the second they meet them they sit down beside them and don't want to leave. There aren't many of them, and I was never one of those people. I sometimes am now, which makes me really happy, but those are often people who are really quiet. So I think being very mindful of the way we use words and sound around our dogs is really, really important because, I think, frankly, our dogs are often just simply exhausted trying to figure out what the heck we're trying to convey to them, you know? So I guess I'd just stick with those two things. Melissa Breau: Excellent. Well, thank you. Kind of the last one here is who is someone else in the dog world that you look up to? Patricia McConnell: If you had asked that first we would still be talking. That's cold to ask me last when we run out of time! OK, I'll talk really fast. Susan Friedman — I'd kiss the hem of her skirt or her pants. I bow down to her. I think she's brilliant, funny, amazing, wonderful. I love Fenzi Dog Sports. I think that incredible work's being done. Suzanne Hetts is doing great work. Her husband, Dan Estep. Julie Hecht at Dog Spies. Karen Pryor, oh my goodness. Trish King. Steve White. Chris Zink, the … everybody in, you know, dog sports knows. Those are the people who just, like, rattle off the top of my head right now, but I could go on and on and on. There are so many amazing people in this field right now. It's just so gratifying. Melissa Breau: That's awesome. Patricia McConnell: Those are just a few of them, yeah. Melissa Breau: We'll have to see if we can get a few of them to come on the show. Patricia McConnell: Oh absolutely, yeah. Melissa Breau: Well thank you so much for coming on the podcast Patricia! I really appreciate it. Patricia McConnell: Oh, it was really fun. Thanks for having me. Melissa Breau: Awesome. And thanks to all of our listeners for tuning in. We'll be back next week with Sarah Stremming. Sarah and I will be talking about life with your dog outside of training… and how what you do then impacts that training. Don't miss it! It if you haven't already, subscribe to our podcast in itunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. CREDITS: Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzi for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty-free by BenSound.com; the track featured here is called “Buddy.” Audio editing provided by Chris Lang.

Summary:   Loretta Mueller returns to talk about her upcoming class, Managing Multi-Dog Mayhem and we talk about the skills it takes to manage a multi-dog household, choosing your next dog, training several dogs at once and how she does it with 6 sports dogs. Links Managing Multi-Dog Mayhem: Description & Registration Next Episode:  To be released 10/13/2017, featuring Loretta Mueller to talk about managing a multi-dog household. TRANSCRIPTION: Melissa Breau: This is Melissa Breau, and you're listening to the Fenzi Dog Sports podcast, brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy, an online school dedicated to providing high-quality instruction for competitive dog sports, using only the most current and progressive training methods. Today, we'll be talking to Loretta Mueller. For those of you who've been listening to the podcast since the beginning, you'll known this is Loretta's second time on the podcast. She first joined us back in February, for episode five, and today we've brought her back to talk about her upcoming class, Managing Multi-Dog Mayhem, on managing a multi-dog household, because the struggle is real, guys. All right, well welcome back, Loretta. Loretta Mueller: Thank you, very much, Melissa. I'm glad to be here again. Melissa Breau: So, to start us out, can you just remind everybody how many dogs you have now and kind of who they are? Loretta Mueller: Yeah, no problem. So, I have, currently, Klink, who is a 12-year-old, Gator, who's 11, Lynn, who's 8, Even, who is also 8, Gig, who's 3. They are all Border Collies, and then I have Crackers, who is a 9-year-old Jack Russell Terrier, all very high-drive, very motivated dogs. Melissa Breau: So, what led you to create a class specifically on this? Loretta Mueller: Well, I will, on occasion, post a video or two of the dogs waiting to work or going on walks as a group, and people would ask me how do you do that, how does that happen, as if it was some magical formula, and at first I kind of was thinking to myself, well, what, what do you mean how does it happen? It's very simple. And then I realized that the more I talked to people, they're struggling. People are really having a hard time managing extra dogs. One dog is easy, for the most part, right? We make mistakes with that first dog, but then we're like, hey, I've got this figured out, let me add a second dog, let me add a third dog, let me get addicted, and the next thing you know, you've got a lot of dogs and you have a lot of problems, and I started realizing that the way I train my dogs is very different because I specifically train them so that they are going to be a part of a multi-dog household, and for many people they don't do that. And so Denise and I were talking, and she said, you know, I think there's a place for this at the academy. And I said, well, you know what, after some thought, why not? Let's do it. And so, from there, it kind of became a thing. You know you put it on the forum and…or not the forum but the group, and people were very, very excited about it, and it was very funny because I asked for some videos of dogs that were doing this or that, and the number of videos that came in was a little overwhelming, and so what I really liked about this class is I'm going to be helping a lot of people, not just with agility, which is normally what I do, but with just life skills and people enjoying their dogs, and what I've found is there are a lot of people that have a lot of issues and are really struggling, and they just need a lot of advice and help on where to proceed, and I think with the more dogs you have, the more overwhelming it is, and so for me the goal is just to break this down into bits and pieces so that people can attack it with education, as opposed to just be frustrated with their dogs. Melissa Breau: So, you mentioned you kind of handle training so that the dog will feel like it's part of or know that it's part of a multi-dog household. So, how do you handle training multiple dogs and making sure everyone gets what they need, and you still manage to fit in training, and I mean how do you do it all when there's still only 24 hours in a day? Loretta Mueller: Well, to me, I'll be the first to admit, and people ask me, usually at every seminar that I teach, how soon do you train your dogs, and normally it's kind of an embarrassment because my dogs do not get long training sessions. Quality is important, not quantity, and people say that over and over again. The nice thing about those of us with multi-dog households is we don't have time to over-train because we're busy training too many dogs. So, that is one really big plus about having a lot of dogs is you're never going to over train anybody. You might under train someone, but you're never going to over train anyone. So, my dogs do not get long training sessions, 5, 10 minutes, usually every day, but I travel a lot, so some days they won't get anything. They do get walks, daily, as a group, and I think for me, being efficient is a really important part of it because I incorporate training into each of those walks, so, for example, recalls out of the group, impulse control when throwing toys for fetching, things like that. So, they are still getting some training, in a group, even if the days they have that pass that they don't get the individual stuff, but I really, really do try to focus for 5 to 10 minutes, every single day. You know training the dogs, it's a priority. You have to make sure it's a priority. Being that that's what I do for a living, the tendency is just to be, you know, exhausted at the end of the day. You're training other people's dogs. Those dogs become the focus, but I make sure that I do something every day with each dog, if I can, regardless of how old they are. I have a 12-year-old. She's doing nose work. You know you just want to make sure that these dogs have a really wonderful life and are happy and still working their brains as much as possible. Another thing that really helps me be super-efficient is I work really hard on my dogs being able to stay while other dogs work with me. So, my dogs are on mats or their own bed and they just stay there, kind of like, actually, a circus, if you ever go to the circus and you have the lions, you know, on the little stands, and they come off. They train, do the tricks, go back on the stands, things like that, definitely more positive, but my dogs are kind of like that. They just sit on their little mats or their beds, and I call them off individually, we train for a little bit, they go back to their bed, call the next dog off, and they all know the rules. They all know that they should stay there and wait quietly and things like that, and that's a big priority for me when I'm bringing these dogs up is I know that's going to be an issue, I assume it's going to be an issue, and there's so many people that say I can't train multiple dogs because my other dog screams or my other dog won't stay, and so, from the get-go, these dogs know nothing but that when they come into my house, and so I'm very, very clear with that, and if you can do that and you can train dogs out fairly efficiently, things go really smoothly and you can get dogs worked very quickly. Melissa Breau: For a lot of people, when they get a second dog, they think it'll actually be easier than it was with the first dog because they'll entertain each other, so I wanted to ask if that's true, and if so, why or why not? Loretta Mueller: That's a tricky one. I actually say yes and no. So, yes it's nice having another dog because, you know, dogs do well in groups. They're social animals and so I think having another dog around does fill part of that need for them as an animal, as a creature. Plus, you know, you've already made a lot of mistakes with your first dog, and you're like, okay, I got this, I can correct it, not a problem. However, if you're looking at it from the performance side, which most of the dogs at FDSA are looking to perform some sort of dog sport, task, it gets a little trickier. So, dogs can become very dog-focused, you know, I'll use the term doggy, which means they're so excited about other dogs that they kind of forget the human side of the equation. I mean, let's face it, dogs are awesome friends for other dogs, right? They speak the same language, there's no questions, for the most part, as long as everyone's temperamentally sound, there's a lot of wonderful communication that goes on between two dogs, and it's really hard for us to mimic that type of interaction, and so competing with that can be tough, as a handler. So, you have to be very careful with that and limiting, sometimes, the actual exposure or maybe I should say keeping the ratio correct. So, the dog should spend enough time with me versus the other dogs. So, it gets a little complicated that way, you know, and the other thing I find is they can get themselves worked up very easily, just bouncing off of, you know, each other, as far as energy goes, and things can get very out of hand, very quickly, and then a lot of times people just don't know what to do, and that's a big issue. So, you have to make sure the dogs have alone time with you. It's really, really important. It just requires more time, and sometimes it requires separation in the beginning. So, for example, if I bring a puppy home, do I just let it run amuck and you know run around with all my adult dogs in the group? No, I don't. There's definitely separation as far as, you know, just to protect the puppy from doing anything inappropriate, also protecting the older dogs in the group, you know? Some of them don't like being pestered by little, little puppies, and so it requires that, and I have raised littermates. As I said in the beginning of the podcast, I have Even and Lynn, both 8, both from the same litter. I will never do it again. It was horrible. I'll be honest with you. It was a very difficult situation because being that I had two puppies, in two crates, they both have to go to the bathroom, right, and first thing in the morning, you let them out of their kennels, you can't let them out together. Why? They'll play. They won't go to the bathroom. You let one out, it goes to the bathroom. By the time you come back in to get the other one, guess one? The other one's already peed. So, you have that whole dynamic that you have to think about. So, I always tell people it's wonderful as long as you can manage it and as long as you understand that in the beginning it's going to take some extra time on your part to set what you want so that the dogs view you as having a lot more value as the other dog, if that makes sense. Melissa Breau: So you touched on, a little bit, in there, kind of making sure that the dogs get time with you and talking about, you know, training for just a couple minutes with each of the dogs. So, is it important for each dog to really get one-on-one time? You know I guess if it's important, how important? Kind of what are your thoughts on that? Loretta Mueller: I think it's really important. We spend a lot of time building value in us as trainers, and these dogs learn to depend on us. They learn to trust us. They want to be with us, whether they just have a natural propensity, due to their breed or their temperament, or we've created it with training and things like that, and I think that, you know, the more dogs you get, the more difficult it is to get that one on one time, but I do think that you do have to make time for it, and it doesn't have to be a lot of time. Remember, dogs are social creatures. They like being in groups, so they do get a lot of, I think, enrichment from the other dogs in the house, but they do still want that time with you, and the thing that I find with a lot of my students is most of my students only make time for training, which is great, okay, because dogs, dogs love to train, if we do it right, hopefully, and if we've trained them to have value in the work, and we're rewarding heavily, and we're not confusing them, which is great, but what I've found is even the highest-drive dogs, those dogs that, you know, will work forever, if they only interaction you have with them is when you're training them, that's the only time, I've seen a lot of fallback from that. And the reason is, is because no matter how much you enjoy a specific hobby, if the only time you ever see someone, you have to do that hobby, and it happens every day, and there's pressures put onto it, right, expectations of competition or whatever, eventually you're going to need a little bit of a balance there, and so what I always tell my students is it doesn't have to be training, that one on one time. It can be just relaxing on the couch. It can be taking a nap with you. It can be just whatever. Be with your dog, and I think that's something that a lot of people, especially those that really, really love to train, they lose sight of that sometimes, and I, myself, have done it as well, and so it's just these dogs are so much fun to train, and you're having a great time, but then you also need to realize that every once in a while, you've got to throw in some of that actual just, I don't mean to sound kind of weird, but just kind of the act of being with your dog, being in the same space, touch, things like that, and so I do think it's very, very important. You know training counts, but it isn't the be all to end all with the one-on-one time. Melissa Breau: So, you kind of mentioned in there people who really like to train, and I think a lot of sports people, especially, have kind of a type when it comes to dogs. You know some like the really pushy, demanding dogs. Others prefer thinkers. You know once a household kind of goes beyond one dog, how much should people be weighing what they like in a training partner kind of against the other personalities they already have with their current dogs? Loretta Mueller: That's a really good question. I see that a lot. As someone who appreciates both the pushy, demanding dogs and the thinkers, it's not something that I really think about, I guess, as far as my own dogs, because I will assess a puppy and say is this puppy a thinker, is this puppy not? However, I'm always, in the back of my mind, thinking in terms of, again, multi-dog household. So, I could say, oh, well this is the type I want, but in reality, if I look at my subconscious, it's back there. It's always there. It's always thinking in terms of that. So, yes, absolutely positively people need to always take into consideration what dogs they have when adding another dog. It's very, very important to do that because what you're looking for is just a nice, peaceful group. You're not looking for turmoil, you're not looking for chaos, and if you start from the foundation of just is this dog temperamentally sound, is this dog super type-A, is it going to mess with the other dogs? If you start with that foundation set, everything becomes a lot easier, obviously. A house full of pushy, demanding dogs with type-A personalities? My goodness. It's going to be tough, and it's going to require a lot more training and possibly more management just because it's like putting a bunch of, you know, high-powered CEOs in a really small apartment and giving them limited resources and expecting them to, you know, passively work it out. It's probably not going to happen because they have that intense drive, that intense need to be first and top, and when you add that many dogs in a situation like that, you're going to have problems. It's just, it's part of it. Do I have several dogs in my group like that? Of course I do, but again, when you bring them in, you teach them, from the get-go, that there is part of the group that you have to take turns, and there is, in a way, kind of situations with sharing, and you have to only deal with your own resources and not worry about anybody else's, and things like that. So, yeah, it's extremely important to look at all the personalities you have as a whole. I have...a good example would be my first Border Collie Zip, who's no longer with me. She was a very type-A, dominant dog, extremely. She just wanted to do all the things and rules were silly, and that was just her personality, and so the next dog I got, after her, which I knew was going to be having to live with that, we always joked that if she was a human, she would have very few friends because she just was like all the things are mine, and this is mine, and everything's mine, and mine, mine, mine, mine, mine, and that was just her mentality, and so the dog I got after her, who's Klink, my 12-year-old, she doesn't care about much of anything. She's like super chill, so, in the house she doesn't do much of anything. She doesn't actually care about playing with toys when we're working. She's on and she wants to go, but as a puppy she was just that chill type of dog, and so that was of interest to me because I had the exact opposite, and it worked out really, really well because those two got along great. Zip cared about all the things. Klink cared about none of the things. Both of them were really, really wonderful working dogs, but it was just a really good choice on my part to get something that was not quite as intense all the time, and I think that that's kind of how I approach things is I look at…normally what I'll look at is my most, I guess, difficult dog in the group, the one that's, you know, wouldn't have friends type of thing, and if I have one of those, I'm going to base a lot of my choices of young dogs or a puppy off of that type of situation. So, which dog's going to get along with the one that's the most, I guess, apt to cause mayhem? So, yeah, it's really important, and a lot of times, you know, I, you always want to pick your own puppy, right? You always want to be the one to pick the puppy, but if you look at…if you're getting a puppy from a breeder or you're getting a puppy from a rescue group that has seen a litter grow up and things like that, I really do defer a lot to those people because they've watched these dogs grow up. If you're looking at getting a rescue dog, you know, do several meetings, if you can. Obviously do it appropriately where both dogs have space and stuff like that. There are going to be situations where dogs may or may not get along, and that's one of the nice things about the multi-dog class is that I show you how to assess that, and do we need to go into a management situation or can a lot of training be worked on to make things a lot more, I guess, easy on both dogs that are possibly having some conflict. Conflict is normal. There's going to be conflict in a group of dogs, and people, I think, have a tendency to get in a very utopic thought process about it and say, oh, my dogs are going to get along amazing, and everybody's going to great, and there's never going to be any discussions about things, and in reality that's not…that's just not the case. Anyone who read the sample lecture on the Fenzi site for my class, it says that, that there's going to be some occasional lip raises, there's going to be an occasional grumble, there's going to be things like that, and that's a normal thing. It's no different than me saying, you know, hey, Melissa, don't touch my breakfast, it's mine. Melissa Breau: Right. Loretta Mueller: And you know and so I would be considered a resource guarder because I really love food, a lot, and so I would be more apt to be like, you know, the fork on the table type of thing, whereas then you can teach the dog, you know, hey, you can't actually get quite that much, but you can protect your space, as far as food bowls and things like that, but you do it by using games and by using positive rewards and things like that because, you know, in negative situations what happens is that builds an emotional connection to the situation. So, if a negative thing happens every time the dogs are fed, for example, if you yell at the dogs, things like that, it creates that negative emotion, and then you're actually, in many cases, making it worse. So, my goal is to make these dogs feel safe, comfortable, happy, when they're having to share their space or resource with other dogs, and it just is so much simpler. It really is, so. Melissa Breau: So, we talked a whole bunch kind of about the importance of personalities. Are there other things that people should take into consideration when they're looking at adding another dog? Loretta Mueller: Yeah, actually, the age of the other dogs. So, I see this a lot, do you have an older dog, you know, does that dog need to have the last part of its golden years being bothered by a puppy? That's something that a lot of people don't always think about when they're looking at getting a puppy or another dog. Time constraints for you and your family, so, do you guys have time for another dog? And a big one, does everyone want the dog, you know, because if you've got some members of the household and some of them want the dog, some of them don't, that can cause a lot of issues. Some may train the dogs. Some may not. Space, do you really have enough space for the number of dogs that you're looking at getting and the size of dogs and the drive of dogs. So, a lot of times, for example, dogs with more of that, as I'll say in some of my lectures, introverted personality, do you have space for these dogs to go away from the main pack, or are they going to be all in a very, very small, contained area? And that's something, for a dog that needs to go away and get away from the group, that's something that you have to think in terms of is if I can't give that dog a basic need that they have to have, is that going to cause turmoil? And yeah, it is, for sure, and so you need to think in terms of do you have enough space to allow dogs to do what they would naturally do to get away from other dogs in their group. What if they don't get along? So, normally, with an older dog or a rescue dog, they're a little bit older, you kind of have an idea of what their temperament is, but if you're getting puppies, anyone who's raised a puppy knows that they go through all sorts of changes in temperament, and what if this puppy grows up and the two don't like each other? Can you…do you have the ability to separate and manage, do you want to manage? Is that something that you're willing to do? Some people don't want to do it, and so it's just, it's an understanding of exactly what these dogs need over what you need. You know I think that if you want another dog, getting a dog that isn't necessarily your type, as we talked about before, can actually be a really good thing. I've had several, and they've made me a better trainer and given me a much greater understanding of dogs as a whole. So, when people always ask me do you want a doer, you know, the pushy demander, or do you want a thinking dog, which one's your favorite? I've got both, and I adjust to both, so it's not a big deal for me. So, a lot of times if you have a real demanding dog, maybe getting a lower key dog would be a better bet, so you still get the addition of another dog, but you get a dog that's going to create less turmoil and less mayhem in the long run. So, that's what I usually tell people. Melissa Breau: So, if I was to restrict you to kind of one core piece of advice for people as they kind of make the move or when they make the move to becoming a multi-dog household, so going from that first dog to adding a second one, what piece of advice would that be? Loretta Mueller: Two dogs is a change. So, for most people, adding another dog is managed and it's easy, for the most part, with a bit of training. As you add that third dog in, something changes. So, you're dealing with a whole different set of dynamics, and things can get out of hand much quicker. It's best to start training as soon as your new dog or puppy comes home and by themselves, then add each dog in if things progress in a positive way, and never be upset or refuse to back up a step or two. That's one of the things that I try to tell people, when they see my six dogs all loose-leash walking on a flat buckle collar at a local park is this didn't happen in a week, right? This was systematically…Klink learned how to walk on leash, then Gator learned how to walk on leash, then the two are combined, and then you slowly add dogs in, and so it's not something that you're like, okay, well, everybody knows how to stay now, so we're all going to do group stays. Group stays are not part of the…they don't generalize, so staying on a mat, in the living room, is not the same as staying on a mat, in the living room, with five other dogs there, and so people have to definitely understand that is that you have to always tell yourself that I've got to get the behaviors down with one dog first and each dog individually and then you add the other dogs in, and then that will get you that group control, that group that's going to listen and behave because they know what's expected of them when there are multiple dogs around. So, that's the one piece of advice I think many people have a tendency…they want to just jump over that, and that's where people get themselves in trouble. Melissa Breau: So, talking about trouble, what are some of the kind of the common challenges that crop up when you have several dogs, especially several sports dogs, presumably all with drive and active interest in training? What happens? Loretta Mueller: Oh my goodness, demanding, pushy behavior for all of the resources, right, any and all resources, so you, food, toys, couches, spaces in the house. These dogs have been bred and trained to want to work for all the things, and so then all of a sudden they're like well that's mine and that's mine and that's mine, and they're very adamant and they're very intense about it. So, that's a big one, big, big, big one. You know big personalities can have big discussions about things, and most of the time those discussions are all, you know, mouth, but you have to understand that that could occasionally happen, and we're going to go over how to deal with that in a multi-dog class, how to effectively deal with it. We teach them to love the game, we teach them to love being with us, and so what we actually create by doing that, if we're not careful, is we create dogs that absolutely, positively do not want to share their training time with other dogs. They only want us. So, when we get another dog, it's very difficult for them to understand, well, why is this dog now at the lesson? Well, why is this dog getting my five minutes? And we created it. We did it ourselves, and so then we get upset because these dogs, who we've told to love the game and love us and love all the things that we reward them with, they're barking their heads off and we get frustrated. So, it's a balance that we have to create with our training that gives us a high-drive dog, on command for drive, ideally, that can patiently wait their turn, and I've had questions, before the class started, was do you do alpha deferment, so, that's something that did come up, and what that means is do I let the alpha dog in the group determine, like, for example, would I feed the alpha dog first, would I train the alpha dog first, would I, you know, anything first? And my answer is no. I train everything very randomly, so none of my dogs know when they're going to get picked to get trained. They just know they're on their mat, and as long as they stay, they'll get to work. So, it's just a matter of them understanding, all the dogs as a whole, that they have to share that time and that you have that balance between, you know, intense love of the game and also the understanding that there must be some semblance of impulse control in order to get, to play the game, and they have to share that with the other dogs in the group. So, that's a big thing that I find that comes up with people, and that's the most common thing I've heard from people that were interested in the class and just people in general that I teach at seminars was that they just don't know how to get their other dogs to be quiet or to sit still while they're training the other dog, and that's a big challenge, and it requires a lot of effort, requires a lot of training, but again, as soon as the dog comes into the household, if you start it immediately, it becomes they only thing they've ever known, and so they're like, yeah, well, we always share time, that's what we do, as opposed to, a lot of people, they're going to be starting from behind the ball, right? The dog's already been, for two years, going, no, this is all mine, mine, all those things are mine, you're mine, get that other dog out of here. Then it requires a little bit more energy on your part, but once the dogs figure it out, they actually really do roll with it pretty easily, because it makes sense to them, as opposed to the chaos of, oh my gosh, this is horrible, I can't believe she's training another dog. So, it does help, kind of. You know what I mean. They just get really upset. I mean some of these dogs get extremely upset and emotionally just, they become a mess because they don't know what to do, and if you show them what to do, when presented with that problem, all of a sudden they go, oh, okay, I can do this. All right, I can do this, this is good. And so then they have a plan, and that's really what the goal with this class is, to provide people with a plan so that they can start with the group of dogs they have now that may have 1 or 2 or 10 problems and then have a plan and a roadmap to work to a calm, peaceful multi-dog household. Melissa Breau: I mean if you went from having one significant other and suddenly started dating around, your significant other would probably have a problem with that too, so. Loretta Mueller: You think? Like, yes… Melissa Breau: I mean you can't really blame a dog that's thought you were going steady for getting too upset about that. Loretta Mueller: Yeah, we were exclusive. We were exclusive. What the heck? Yes, exactly. That is exactly what's going on, totally, and then we go I don't understand why you're not getting this, and the dogs are like really? Yeah. Yeah. Whatever. So, yeah, that's exactly what's happening, and so, again, you know, it's, to me it's very obvious that these dogs are doing that because of the fact that we've created such a wonderful relationship with them that we have to then show them, you know, there is going to be times where you're going to have to share me a little bit, and again, once they figure out the process, it actually goes pretty easily, so. Melissa Breau: So, we've talked a lot, I think, about kind of the idea of running a smooth household and management and training. I wanted to ask a little bit about how you balance the two, both in real life and kind of in the class. Loretta Mueller: I get this a lot, and sadly I can't give you a definite answer, and the reason I can't is because the dogs kind of decide what needs to happen, as far as management versus training. It is all about the dog. So, you know, with dogs that are temperamentally sound, with no major issues, and what I mean by no major issues is, you know, no severe resource guarding, no severe reactivity, things like that, so just a normal, you know, normal-tempered dog, after they understand the situation with the training and the taking turns and learning how they are supposed to behave when another dog is out and things like that, there's usually very little management after training, and I say management…some people have different terms of management. So, I'll go onto that in a second, but many dogs do have their quirks. I mean I have a houseful of Border Collies, so, they're their own little weirdos, you know, to begin with. I love the breed. I love them, but they definitely all have their quirks. Anyone that has a Border Collie will go, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, even I have dogs that are a bit on the odd side, and the key, I guess, with that, is to identify it early and see if training can fix it. You apply the training, does it get better, does it progress positively, yay. If it does not, are there other options? So, I will always defer to training first, if I can. You know, so, for example, this is a good example of something that I do with my dogs, and they only know this. They know no other way, training. My dogs are taught that the house is not a place to be in drive unless they're given a trigger word. So, for my dogs it's the word ready, which I'm really happy that I just said that and none of them are getting up off the couch, because they're all five of them currently are just sacked out in my living room with me. So, if I don't say that word, the assumption, to all of my dogs, is the house is a calm place. So, there's not dogs running around, throwing toys, there's not dogs running around, playing and going crazy in the house. It's just a place that they should be calm and out of drive unless asked into drive and the only place I will actually ask them to go into drive is in my training room, which is in my house, but it's a spare bedroom. So, if they go into the training room, that's when they will go into drive because the training room itself is a trigger. So, I will say are you ready to work or…I can't even say it because they're going to all get excited. So, that word means get going and let's get to business. Outside, when we go outside, as long as they behave themselves and go through doors correctly and you know are good with their impulse control, that's where they can be dogs and run around. So, they can go on off-leash walks, things like that, and if I do want them to go into a working drive, I would give them the same word, ready, and they would come to me and we'd work, if needed, and so it's very important because this rule creates a house that doesn't have dogs throwing toys me all hours of the day and night. There's no craziness. The house, to the dogs, is just like a crate, so a place to be calm, and it's something I just, I guess, took for granted because I was like I don't really want six dogs running around amuck in my house, just chaotic, but a lot of people don't do that. They, the house is a place to play and go crazy and get zoomies, and all these amazing things happen in the house, which is fine, but always be cognizant of what you're actually working, right, because something that might be cute in the beginning, when you add 4 or 5 dogs into the mix, it becomes a major, major issue, and that's the situation that I find with people is that they don't think in terms of the future. They think in terms of, oh, these two dogs are having fun in the living room. And so for me, if, for example, I had a dog that was wanting to play with my puppy in the house, I would most likely, if I could, take them outside and let them have fun outside, and then once puppy was tired, bring them back in the house. So, I'm just setting an example for calm, controlled behavior in my home, and then, when we go outside, they can be, you know, dogs, within reason, do dog things, run around, bark, things like that. So, I think it's something that people have to always think in terms of, and a lot of people don't because when you have one dog, it's not that big of a deal, but when you have five dogs, it becomes a major thing. So, and that's an example of training. So, for me, management can come in situations with just daily life. So, a good example of management that I do, myself, is not all of my dogs are loose in the house when I'm gone. It's an earned thing because some of my dogs are great in the house, and then I have some, a couple of them, that are a bit more naughty, and the naughty ones are crated, and it's just some people would call that, I guess, true management. I just call that putting dogs that are naughty in crates, and so that's, they can't be naughty when I'm not around. So, you know, that would be fine. That's just a standard that I have for my dogs. Do I have a dog or two that doesn't necessarily like the other dog? Yeah, I do, and so do those dogs, are they left out when I'm not around? No, they're crated, you know, and so if you have those kind of personality things, you say, okay, there's a personality issue here between two of my dogs. Therefore, I'm not going to create a situation where they have the ability to have any discussions. I'm going to remove that from the table so that the only time they have the ability to have a discussion is when I'm going to be around and I can distract them from it or whatever, if need be. But the dogs, to me, will really determine how much management's required. Many dogs, when I actually work through all the exercises in my class, don't have as much of an issue of space or reactivity, or they're greatly lessened just due to understanding, but you know, however, if you have dogs that are attacking other dogs, you know, you have to understand that there is a time for management, and sometimes it's just managing, like, situations we'll deal with in the multi-dog class, pinch points, so areas of conflict as far usually that's like space, so hallways, door entryways, things like that. If you acknowledge it and you manage little pieces, then you don't end up having to manage the entire situation all the time and keeping dogs completely separate. So, it's identifying those trigger or those pinch points that will tell you, hey, this is an area of conflict, I can do this, this, or this, and that will take care of it and get rid of the conflict. You get rid of the conflict, you get rid of the emotion, the dogs then relax and things become much better, and so it's about just observation and seeing exactly what's happening with your group, and that's going to be very, very important when you can decide whether you need to train something or it is a true management situation. Melissa Breau: Now, you kind of mentioned the loose-leash walking thing earlier, but I want to kind of circle back around to that. I know one of the most common requests, when it comes to having several dogs, is definitely loose-leash walking because there's definitely nothing crazier than having several dogs all pulling you in different directions when you're outside. Ask me how I know. So, I know that, you know, you've shared some pictures on the Facebook group and things of you with your crew, all leashes, nice and loose. Are you covering that in the class? Loretta Mueller: Yes, I am, definitely, absolutely. I will be going over it, and I'm going to be starting it on week two. I've just released lectures for week one. So, week two we're going to already start on some loose-leash walking, and again, the key is one dog at a time. When you add more dogs, it's not going to get better. It's going to get worse, and so I think as the people are like well, you know, they'll probably be okay, get the leash walking done well with one dog, and then we're kind of adding other dogs, and again, like I said before, people have a tendency to rush it, and then you end up with four dogs dragging you down the road, and that's not fun, and you also have dogs that, you know, they might be somewhat okay as a group on leash, but then a squirrel runs cross your path, and then you are now officially skiing, which we don't want that. We want you to not be ran into trees and not be drug through forests. I actually just got back from a camping trip, and I saw that in full force, a woman with four Goldens, not a cool situation. So, luckily my dogs are only about 35 pounds, but I do work with a lot of people that have dogs much bigger, and the bottom line is it takes patience, but the rewards are amazing, and I think that's the hardest part, for most people, when they're dealing with loose-leash walking is they want to just get it done and then add all 3, 4 dogs, and that's not how it works, and so again, laying those roadmaps on here's where you start and then there's how you slowly add in more layers, and a layer being distractions, and a layer being a dog, things like that, and that's one of the things we do in week one of this class, actually, is self-assessment of each dog, and I have a couple of the golds say do you really want me to write out everything for each of the dogs in my house? Yes, I do. I sure do, and the reason is, is because you can use dogs' personalities to benefit another dog's training. So, for example, if you have a really exuberant young dog that's learning loose-leash walking and has it, and has got it, and they're doing really well by themselves, and then you have the option of adding a 4-year-old, who is kind of high strung, your 12-year-old dog, who is not high strung, or a18-month-old young dog that doesn't know how to loose-leash walk. Which one do you add in? You're going to go with the older dog, right? So, you can use those personality characteristics to help you, but you have to understand what those characteristics are because we just have a tendency to look at the group as a whole and not these individual dogs, and you can use them so easily, and I do that a lot in my classes, where I'll deal with certain dogs who get overstimulated by a specific type of dog. I can use that dog for my group to work them through that, and it's the same thing that you'd be doing when you're dealing with multi-dogs. You can use the dog that best fits the situation that's going to put that positive progress into play, and that's going to be a really, really important thing when you're dealing with loose-leash walking. Again, I think people get on the verge of getting it and then they just lose patience, and I know nothing worse for me, personally, than dealing with a dog dragging me. That's just one of my things. Like, it makes a lot of stuff not fun, and so, for me, it's something that I really work on, and I think it's kind of fun to see a lot of these golds that are in the class, currently, are really excited about doing that. So, I see some really, really motivated people that are hopefully going to get some really good leash walking out of their dogs, and then again, once they get it on one dog, keep working on all the rest, and then we add them all in, as a group, slowly, and the rewards are awesome because you can just walk your dogs and not have to worry about being pulled or drug, and it's a really awesome thing. I mean I know it's not nearly as cool as doing weep holes or you know dumbbell retrieves, but the bottom line is you're probably going to spend a lot more time walking your dog on-leash than you are, you know, doing other stuff. So, that's going to be a really, really important thing. I'm excited about that, super excited, so. Melissa Breau: I think most of people taking the class are probably pretty excited about that, too. Loretta Mueller: Yeah, they are. Melissa Breau: So, I wanted to just kind of generally ask you a little more about what you will and won't cover in the class. What are some of the other topics? Loretta Mueller: So I'm going to cover just group mentality, assessing your dogs as far as their temperaments, common areas that cause issues with groups, games to help dogs learn to share and accept other dogs, share and accept resources, understanding what each of the dogs in your group needs to be happy and content, because that's a really, really important one. They're just like people. Some of them are extroverts. Some of them are introverts. It really depends on the dog, and just noticing those characteristics and giving them what they need so that they're more comfortable, and a big one is when you should look into a true management scenario. I think that's a hard one for a lot of people. I find a lot of people go into management before they've actually looked into training first, and I think that a lot of stuff can be accomplished with training, as, again, as long as you're dealing with a dog that's just maybe over threshold or things like that. Things I'm not going to cover, I'm not going to cover severe aggression issues between pack members, severe resource guarding issues, so dogs that are lunging while being fed, things that should be left to a certified behaviorist. To me, those things can't really be worked through via a lot of video because you're still going to be still missing out on some things or just discussion. I think that in those cases, with severe issues, you need one on one, in person time with a professional in that specific field, and so I think it's just really important that people understand that this is to fix tendencies or slight issues that don't involve severe massive aggression or severe resource guarding or also just, you know, if you're bringing a new puppy into the pack and you want to know how to raise this puppy in a way that it's only going to know that it's…that's how it lives, it's in a group, then the class is for you, but like I said, in severe issue…cases with aggression and resource guarding, I'm going to leave that to someone that is, you know, a professional in the field, and that's where I would send people to go, so. Melissa Breau: Kind of my last question here, is there, just generally, I guess, anything you'd add and either about the class or in general or maybe something you've learned over time or that hasn't worked, just kind of anything you'd add to anything we talked about? Loretta Mueller: Yeah. You know I think having a houseful of dogs can be really a fun experience. I love my group. I wouldn't trade them for the world, I'll be honest with you. One of the things I've learned, over time, and I think we've all kind of done it, probably out of frustration more than anything, is yelling or screaming or you know getting upset when the dogs are being silly in a group, it doesn't work. It just doesn't work. I mean it might make us feel a little bit better at the time, that we're trying to, you know, maybe fix something, but the bottom line, it really doesn't work. It's, the goal that you have to think in terms of, and this has taken me, you know, I've been dealing with multi-dogs for many years now, is just think in terms of divide and conquer. So, if your group is unmanageable, you need to work each dog on their own, get them the skills, and then, like I said, slowly add in dogs if things progress in a positive direction. If you bring dogs in, just assume it's going to be a multi-dog household, and all your training should be around that. If you only ever want one dog, it's a little different, but I think, to me, you know, every dog that comes in is going to understand that they will be in a group situation and they will have to have these specific skills and games that they have learned that will help them deal with that type of life, because it's different. I mean it's very different, especially going from one dog to multiple dogs, the dogs have to be accepting of personal space, possibly being invaded, things like that, and you have to work with them to develop that understanding and the tolerance to accept, you know, dogs in their space and things like that, and then, on the flip side, you also, as the trainer, have to understand how to make things less evasive and how to give dogs outs and options and things like that, and I think that something I've learned, a lot, just through the years is that incompatible behaviors, so, if you have a behavior you don't like, go the exact opposite and teach that. So, it's really hard for, example, a dog to run ahead of everyone else, and you'll see this common in a lot of the herding breeds, they'll nip. So, for example, if you let your dogs in the house, one dog in particular, normally, will run ahead of everybody because they're busting through the door, of course, and they will wheel around and nip those dogs coming through the hallway or through a door. So, you just think in terms of incompatible behavior, so, if the dog is waiting at the door to be released, is that compatible with running through the door and biting the other dogs? No. They can't do both, and so you want to think in terms of I want to find a behavior that they can't do simultaneously, and then you work on that as a trained behavior and you'll get that situation. So, one of the things that people will get used to, throughout this session, is in a group, my dogs are released to commands or to food or through doors by their names. So in agility, I say okay. That's their release word. In a group situation, because I would never do agility with my dogs in a group…that just sounds dangerous. It really does. I'm like I've got a little anxiety over that one, actually, but you, I would release them with an okay in agility, but in a group, and for example if I wanted them to come to the door, if I say okay, is that fair? Melissa Breau: Right. Loretta Mueller: It's, well, it is, technically, if I want them to all bust through the door at once, which is definitely not what I want, because they'll kill each other, but you know people are like okay, and then all five dogs jump up and bust through the door. Well, that's not what I want. So, in the situation of a group thing, I would be saying, Klink, and Klink means you are released to come to the door. If I want to tug with multiple dogs, for example, I would say Klink, get it, or Lynn, get it. So, it gives the dog's name and then something, and that way I can be very specific about what I want which dog to do, and that was something I didn't think about, actually. One of my students was just feeding her dogs cookies, you know, just cookies, and one of the dogs was getting a little guard-y, and what I realized through that was that I tell my dogs their names before I give them a cookie, if I have five dogs waiting at my feet, and none of them try to get the other dog's cookie, and I do have a couple dogs that are a little resource-guard-y, but unless they hear their name, they know not to get the cookie, and so it's just little things like that that if you're not training with multiple dogs, you don't think about, and then, all of a sudden, you add in that second dog, and you're like, oh wow, everything has changed now because my first dog doesn't want the other dog to get cookies, etcetera, etcetera. So, it's stuff like that that I've just naturally developed through the years of having multiple dogs that we will go through, and you know you don't have to say your dog's name. You can…one of my students has uno, dos, tres, one, two, three in Spanish. That's how she calls her dogs, as far as group stuff. So, her dogs are uno, dos, tres in a group, and then her dogs, you know, when they're individually training, have their names and things like that, and so, so my dogs' conceptual… Melissa Breau: I was going to say I'm assuming that's because she uses their names to mean something else in training. Loretta Mueller: Yes, exactly, yeah. Melissa Breau: Yeah. Loretta Mueller: And you know dogs, dogs are very good at figuring out scenarios. They're phenomenal at figuring them out. I mean my dogs know that if they come out of the house and we turn left, we're going to go into the agility field, but I never work five dogs in agility. So, they don't do agility. If I come out with one dog, and I turn left, and I go to the agility field, they know they're working. So, it's all about context. So, I teach my dogs that in context there's group context and then there's individual context, and they are very, very good at figuring that out, and so we'll be going through that, as well, in the class, but that's a big one is teaching them what they should expect in a group, and so a lot of these people, we're working on a lot of that stuff this, the next six weeks. So, I'm pretty excited about the class. Melissa Breau: It sounds awesome. Loretta Mueller: Yeah. Yeah. I'm excited about it. I'm looking forward to seeing the videos and seeing the starting points. I just released a lecture where it says I need to see the ugly, and so I'm kind of excited to go look at the forums and see some ugly, and then we can work on some stuff. So, yeah, it's going to be a fun class. Melissa Breau: For folks listening, we're actually recording this on the first day of class, on October 1. So, they won't hear this for a week or two, but for you, it's, today's the very first day of class. Loretta Mueller: Yes, it is. Melissa Breau: Well, thank you, so much, for coming back on the podcast, Loretta. This is great. Loretta Mueller: Yeah. You're welcome. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. Melissa Breau: And thank you to all of our listeners for tuning in. We'll actually be back next week with our first non-FDSA interview. I'll be back with Laura VanArendonk Baugh. I pronounced that right, I'm pretty sure, and she's the author of Fired Up, Frantic, and Freaked Out, Training Crazy Dogs From Over-The-Top to Under Control, and Social, Civil, and Savvy, Training and Socializing Puppies to Become the Best Possible Dogs. Don't miss it. If you haven't already, subscribe to our podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. CREDITS: Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzi for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty-free by BenSound.com; the track featured here is called “Buddy.” Audio editing provided by Chris Lang and transcription written by CLK Transcription Services.

Summary: Sue Yanoff graduated from Cornell University College of Veterinary Medicine in Ithaca, New York in 1980. After three years in private practice she joined the US Army Veterinary Corps. While on active duty she completed a three-year residency in small animal surgery at Texas A&M University, and became board certified by the American College of Veterinary Surgeons. She retired from the Army in 2004, after almost 21 years on active duty. After working for a year on a horse farm in Idaho, she returned to Ithaca to join the staff at Cornell Veterinary Hospital as their second surgeon. Sue retired from Cornell in December of 2009. After all her on call schedule was interfering with those dog show weekends. The following month she started working for shelter outreach services. A high quality, high volume spay neuter organization. About the same time Sue joined her colleague, a physical therapist and licensed veterinary technician to start a canine sports medicine practice at the Animal Performance and Therapy Center in Genoa, New York. The practice is limited to performance dogs, and now she's joined the team here at FDSA to teach a class on canine sports medicine for performance dog handlers. Next Episode:  To be released 9/22/2017, featuring Cassia Turcotte — we'll talk about positive gun dog training, and her upcoming class on channeling dog's natural instincts for high level behaviors while they are in drive. TRANSCRIPTION: Melissa Breau: This is Melissa Breau and you're listening to the Fenzi Dog Sports podcast, brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy, an online school dedicated to providing high quality instruction for competitive dog sports using only the most current and progressive training methods. Today we'll be talking to Sue Yanoff. Sue graduated from Cornell University College of Veterinary Medicine in Ithaca, New York in 1980. After three years in private practice she joined the US Army Veterinary Corps. While on active duty she completed a three-year residency in small animal surgery at Texas A&M University, and became board certified by the American College of Veterinary Surgeons. She retired from the Army in 2004, after almost 21 years on active duty. After working for a year on a horse farm in Idaho, she returned to Ithaca to join the staff at Cornell Veterinary Hospital as their second surgeon. Sue retired from Cornell in December of 2009. After all her on call schedule was interfering with those dog show weekends. The following month she started working for shelter outreach services. A high quality, high volume spay neuter organization. About the same time Sue joined her colleague, a physical therapist and licensed veterinary technician to start a canine sports medicine practice at the Animal Performance and Therapy Center in Genoa, New York. The practice is limited to performance dogs, and now she's joined the team here at FDSA to teach a class on canine sports medicine for performance dog handlers. Hi Sue. Welcome to the podcast. Sue Yanoff: Hi Melissa. Thanks. Melissa Breau: I'm looking forward to chatting. I think that most of the students who have been with FDSA for any period of time have probably seen your dogs in one class or another. But for those that haven't, do you want to just tell us a little bit about the dogs you have now, and what you're working on with them? Sue Yanoff: Sure. My older beagle is Charm. She's 12 years old. She's a breed champion. She has her UD, her rally excellent, MX, MXJ, and TD. She's pretty much retired from performance right now, but I am still doing tracking with her, and would like to get a TDX on her. And then my younger beagle, Ivy, who has been in a lot of Fenzi classes is six years old. She's also breed champion. She finished her mock last year. She has her rally novice title, and a TD, and she has two legs towards her CDX. Melissa Breau: Well congrats. Those are some seriously impressive stats, especially with beagles. Sue Yanoff: Thanks. Melissa Breau: So how did you get your start in dog sports? What got you started there? Sue Yanoff: A beagle. Between my sophomore and junior year as an undergraduate here at Cornell, I went home to visit my parents, and I also went to visit the vet I used to work for when I was in high school, and there was a little beagle puppy with a cast on his hind leg coming out of anesthesia, and I picked him up, and I cuddled him. I said oh I want to take this puppy home, and they said well you can because his owners had him for just a couple of days and then their little boy broke his leg, and they were going to pick him up from the vet that afternoon, and take him to the animal shelter. So some phone calls were made, and I got the puppy and took him back to college with me, and I didn't know anything about dog training. I had never heard of crate training, so I would just leave him in my apartment, that I shared with two roommates, while I went to class, and of course he destroyed things, and did all the naughty things that puppies do. So I thought I need to do something, and I enrolled him in the kindergarten puppy class at the local dog-training club. That's how it got started, and I ended up getting a CDX on that dog while I was in Vet school, and that got me started in dog sports. Melissa Breau: Wow. So to go from, you know, never having done anything dog training wise before, to a CDX. That's pretty impressive Sue. Now I'd imagine being both the sports dog handler and the vet has led to some pretty unique insights into each field. How has being involved in both influenced your views in each of those? Sue Yanoff: Yeah, that's an interesting question. As a dog trainer all my dogs have, at one point in their careers, been injured, and I know what it's like to have to restrict your dog's activity. You can't train them. You can't show them. It's very frustrating, and so as a vet when I have to tell a client okay you can't train, you can't show, you have to restrict your dog for weeks, or months sometimes, I know how frustrating that can be, and how hard it can be, but I also understand where they are coming from so I think I can see it from both sides. Melissa Breau: Is there anything in particular about veterinary medicine that sports handlers often just don't understand? Sue Yanoff: Yeah. I don't think it's just sports handlers. I think it's a lot of people. Veterinary medicine is a science, and the decisions that we make have to be based on science, and not just what people think, or what they heard, and so when you're making a decision about what the best diagnostics are for a condition, or how best to treat the condition, it has to be based on a series of cases, not just on what somebody thinks, and I go a lot based on what I learn at continuing education conferences, and what I read in the veterinary literature. Because papers that are published in peer reviewed journals are scrutinized to make sure that the science behind the conclusions are valid. So while, you know, it's fine for somebody to say well I did this with my dog and he did great. What I want to make my decisions on is what worked well for many dogs, dozens, or hundreds, or thousands of dogs, and not just something that might have worked for your dog where we don't' even know if the diagnosis was the same. So I think I want people to know that veterinary medicine is a science, and we have to make our decisions based on science. Melissa Breau: I think that, you know, especially with the internet these days it's very common for people to turn to their favorite local forum, and be like well what should I do, but… Sue Yanoff: I know like let me get advice from everybody, and I know it's hard to make decisions when it involves your dog and you're emotionally involved, and that's one of the reasons I want to teach this class, to give people information that they can use to make those hard decisions. Melissa Breau: What about the reverse? Are there things about sports that you think most vets just they don't understand? Sue Yanoff: Oh yes. Yes there's a lot. Unless you're a vet who's involved in this thing, most vets don't understand the time and the effort, and the emotion, and the money that goes into the training, and the trialing that we do. They don't understand the special relationship that we have with our dogs when we put the time and effort into training them. I have had dogs that were wonderful pets, and I loved them but I never showed them for one reason or another, and there is a different relationship when you accomplish something special with that dog. So I think that's important thing. The other thing that most vets don't understand, and might not agree with, but I have had some clients where we have diagnosed an injury, and said okay we need to restrict activity, and do the conservative treatment route, and they say I will but my national specialty is next week, and she's entered in whatever class. Or they say I have a herding finals coming up in two weeks, and I really want to run her in those trials, and I'm okay with that if the dog has an injury that I don't think is likely to get much worse by doing a little more training, or trialing, then I'll say okay. Well let's do this in the meantime, and when you're done with your national or with your specialty or whatever, come on back and we'll start treatment. So I think a lot of vets would not understand that point of view, but I'm okay with it as long as I don't think that it's going to do serious harm to the dog, and as long as the owner understands that there's, you know, a slight chance that things could get worse. Melissa Breau: I think it's really kind of interesting that you focused a little bit on performance dogs. So I wanted to ask about what led you to that, I guess, to focus on that. Was it your own interest just in the being involved with sports when you joined the practice in New York? Sue Yanoff: Yeah. No. It's my own interests. I'm mostly retired. I've retired from three different jobs now, so I don't have to do this sports medicine stuff to make a living, and to pay my mortgage. So I became interested in it when I joined the practice at Colonial Veterinary Hospital about the same time my colleague Lynn joined it. She's a physical therapist. She was a physical therapist for people for 20 plus years before she decided she wanted to work on animals, so she went to vet tech school to become a vet tech, and get some animal education. And I remember when I first met her she said to me well what do you think about physical therapy for dogs, and I thought I don't know anything about it. So the more I learned about it, the more I realized how important it is, and I did a lot of reading, and I went to continuing education about sports medicine, and about the same time, like a few years later, the American College of Veterinary Sports Medicine and Rehabilitation was getting going so the whole topic of canine sports medicine was getting more popular and people were learning more about it. So the more I learned about it, the more I liked it and of course since I did dog sports, I understood what's involved in dog sports. So when Lynn and I started this little practice, we did see pets for the first year or two, but then we said you know what, we don't want to deal with people. Performance dog people, in general, their dogs are better trained. They're better behaved, which make it easier to examine them. Not all of them but most of them. They're definitely more committed to doing what needs to be done to get their dog better. So they are more willing to put the time into it, and the work for treating, and rehabbing the dog, and the money that it costs to get their dogs better if the need surgery, or other treatments. So, you know, when Lynn and I started seeing more and more animals we said okay, we're not doing pets any more. We're just going to work on performance dogs. Melissa Breau: Now I want to talk a little bit about your upcoming class. So in some ways it's the first of it's kind here at FDSA. Do you mind sharing a little bit about what students can expect to learn? Sue Yanoff: Well basically the goal of the class is to, in the words of a friend of mine that I was discussing this with, is to make people better consumers of healthcare, for their animals. I want to give them information about the various injuries that the dogs can get, and how they are diagnosed, and what the treatment options are, and what's the best chance to get them back to competition. I want them to understand the importance of a good sports medicine exam. When I was a surgeon when I saw an animal for an injury, or a lameness, I would examine the leg that was lame. Most of the time, we knew which leg was lame and I would examine that leg and tell them what surgery I think the dog needs, and that was that. With a sports medicine exam, I examine the whole dog. At times I don't even know which leg is lame, because the owner doesn't know which leg is lame. We come with a history of knocking bars, or popping weaves, or not being as active, and they think there might be something wrong, but they're not sure. So it's a totally different type of exam from when I just did surgery to now doing sports medicine. So I want people to understand that, and I just want them to be able to make informed decisions if and when they have to deal with an injury. Melissa Breau: I'd imagine it was probably pretty hard to decide what things to fit into the class and what things were kind of beyond the scope of what you could cover in those six weeks. So what are some of the common types of injuries that you'll be discussing in those six weeks? Sue Yanoff: Yeah. It was really tough. When I started writing lectures, I had no idea how much material I was eventually going to cover. So people can go to the website to look at the course summary to see what we cover from week to week. But three of the common injuries that we see in sports medicine are injuries to the muscles and tendons of the shoulder, the biceps and supraspinatus specifically. Injuries to the iliopsoas muscle which ten or so years ago I never heard of, and now it's a very commonly diagnosed injury. And then, also talking about cranial cruciate ligament injuries because just based on a recent thread on the Fenzi Alumni Facebook page, there's a lot of information out there about cranial cruciate ligament injuries, and some misinformation. We have a whole lecture just on cranial cruciate ligament injuries to give people, you know just the basic facts of what's based on science. What's not based on science. What the options are, because there's always options. There's no one best way to treat almost anything. So those are probably the three most common things that people know about that they'll learn. But there's a ton of other stuff in the class. Melissa Breau: Now I know that the syllabus mentions prevention a little bit, and I wanted to know if you could talk for a minute about the role that prevention plays when it comes to these types of injuries. You know, how much should sports handlers focus on preventing problems? If you can, even beyond that, are there skills that they should teach that would make dealing with these kinds of problems, should they occur, easier before there's ever actually a problem for them to be worried about. Sue Yanoff: Yes. Well prevention is always best, and as far as preventing injuries in dogs the bottom line is that we don't know what we can do to prevent injuries. Everything that we know is based on the human literature, and some horse literature, but there are no studies in veterinary medicine for dogs as to anything that's proven to prevent injuries. So we have to just extrapolate from the human literature, but there certainly are lots of things. In fact my sample lecture is my lecture on preventing injuries, and that's a freebie for anybody to go read. But one of the most important things to keep your dog thin and fit, and there's some really good Fenzi classes on canine conditioning. So I think that's important. The other thing that is important that I notice that a lot of handlers don't do because I compete with my clients, I compete with all the people and I can see that they don't' spend enough time warming their dogs up before the competition, and cooling the dog down after the competition. Now for an obedience trial, the warm up is probably not as important as something like field trials, or agility trials, and certainly lure coursing. But I think those three things, conditioning, warm up, and cool down will go a long way to helping to prevent injuries. And then, as far as what they can teach their dog that will help, there's two things. On is to teach your dog to allow a hands on examination, including lying on their side while I examine them. Most of the dogs that I see are pretty good about it. Some of them will, you know, will fuss a little at first, but they pretty much relax into it. But I've had a few dogs where there's no way we can lay them on their side to examine them, and I can barely get in a good standing exam. So it'd be really nice to be able to have your dog do that, and I know that Deb's Cooperative Canine Care class, I'm sure, can help with that. Then the other thing that's important is best gait to diagnose a lameness is a trot, and a lot of my patients either won't trot nicely on a leash. They want to bounce around, or pull, or run. Or they won't trot on a leash next to the owner without looking up at the owner, and that kind of throws the gait off a little. So to teach your dog to have nice straight trot, on leash without looking up at you would be another thing that would make my life a little bit easier. Melissa Breau: I mean I definitely wouldn't have thought of that second one. The first one definitely made sense, having the dog lay on its side and being able to be calm while its examined, but it never would have occurred to me that it would be important to have a forward motion where the dog wasn't looking at you for diagnostic purposes. Sue Yanoff: Right. That's why it's really nice when we get show dogs, confirmation dogs that know this skill. I mean we get the job done, but there are certain things that can make it easier for the dog, the owner, and me. Melissa Breau: Obviously there's a limited amount you can do remotely when it comes to canine medicine, so how are you doing the different levels in the class and what will and won't be covered in class. Sue Yanoff: Right. Well the first thing I want to say is I will not make any diagnoses over the phone or online, and the reason for that is that, you know, in order to give advice on diagnosis and treatment, you have to establish a veterinary client patient relationship, and in most states, at least in New York state, that means you have to see the client, and the dog in person. So while I can answer people's questions, and look at video, and say well you know it could be this, and it might be this, and you might want to get these diagnostic tests, and if it's this then this treatment works, and if it's that, this treatment works. I don't want people to sign up for the class expecting me to diagnose their dog online. So with that said, there's going to be two levels. Bronze which is the typical bronze level, and then silver, and with this new working silver level that Fenzi has, I think that all of the silver spots will be working silver spots because there'll be no gold spots. So it's mainly a discussion class, but I want the silver students to be able to at least post photographs. They can even post radiographs, or x-rays if they want to. If we mutually agree that a video would be helpful they can post a video of their dog, and they can ask any question they want. They can ask general questions about the material. They can ask specific questions about their dog. They don't have to pick one dog. They can ask specific questions about any dog they want to. I want there to be a lot of discussion because I think everybody, me, the silver students, and the bronze students will learn a lot from the discussions, you know as much if not more so than from the lectures. So I'm hoping to have some really active silver students. Melissa Breau: Hopefully, you know, having said that you will now get even more of them, than you would have otherwise. I think that, that will be a real appeal for students to know that you really want an active silver group. Sue Yanoff: Right, and then the other things that they should understand is there's so much material that we could cover, but this class is basically covering injuries, and not specifically hereditary or developmental disorders like hip dysplasia or elbow dysplasia, or OCD. I mean those are common in sports dogs, but that could be a whole class in itself. So I really had to limit some things so we're going to be talking about injuries that they can acquire. Melissa Breau: So maybe in the future if this class does well, huh? Sue Yanoff: Maybe, and when I want to spend another huge amount of time writing these lectures, so. Melissa Breau: You mentioned earlier treatment decisions for dogs can be super hard, you know whether their a performance dog, or just a pet. So I'd imagine that one of the major benefits to this class would be that students will feel significantly more informed when they have those kinds of decisions to make in the future. First of all, would you agree with that? It sounds like from what you said earlier, you would, and then do you have any advice for students who may be facing those kinds of decisions now? Sue Yanoff: Yes. So yes the class will provide a lot of information for the students to help them make better decisions about their dogs medical care, but what they need to know for now, are two things that I think are important. One is to get a diagnosis. It's really hard to make a treatment plan without at least having an idea of what's going on, and general practitioners are great. I have a lot of respect for general practitioners because I was one for five years, but they're not specialists in any one subject. So unless the cause of the lameness is very obvious, you might have to see an expert, and there are two experts that can be used for sports dogs. One is the board certified surgeon, which is what I am, and more, and more board certified surgeons are realizing that sporting dogs, performance dogs, are a little bit different from pets, and so they're dealing with them a little bit better, although there's still some that do what I used to do, just look at the leg. Look at the injury, and not look at anything else. But then this new specialty of sports medicine and rehabilitation, there's more and more vets being trained, and being board certified in that specialty. So that would be another specialist to go see if your general practitioner, you know, is not sure about what might be going on. The other thing is that I'm a big fan of all the therapists that are out there. Massage therapists, and the physical therapists, and the people that do acupuncture, and chiropractic, but if they're not also veterinarians, then they may not be able to make the diagnosis. They could look at things that might be causing the dog pain or discomfort that might be secondary to the diagnosis. But sometimes treating the symptoms is all you need to do, but sometimes treating the symptoms won't cut it. You need to know what the diagnosis is so you know specifically what you have to treat, and we'll discuss all that in the class. Melissa Breau: What I was going to say is that I know this was in the questions I sent over, kind of in advance of our call, but I'm curious…you kind of mentioned some specific certifications. Is there anything out there, or do you have any recommendations if students are trying to find a good specialist or kind of get advice on where to look? Is there any, I guess, any way for them to kind of vet on their own, okay this is a person who really, probably is going to be good for a sports dog versus this is somebody who maybe doesn't have as much of a background in that. Sue Yanoff: Yes. Well I mean both these specialties have websites. American College of Veterinary Surgeons, and American College of Veterinary Sports Medicine and Rehabilitation, and on the websites you can look up to see who in your state is board certified, and you can also look up to see what their special interest is. So, I mean, for the sports medicine and rehab vet's then obviously their specialty is sports medicine and rehab. But for the board certified surgeons some of them are more geared towards, you know, sports medicine versus just plain old surgery. The other thing is, you want to, if you're going to see a board certified surgeon, you want to see somebody that deals with a lot of performance dogs, if possible, and you also want to deal with somebody who understands, and agrees with the importance of physical therapy postoperatively, because there are still some veterinary surgeons out there that don't think dogs need physical therapy post op. They just, you know, restrict the activity until the surgery is healed, and then say okay well gradually get him back to normal, and it's like what does that mean, or what do you do. So I truly believe that the surgery is only half of the story, and that physical therapy, post operative physical therapy, guided by a knowledgeable person, and there are certifications in physical therapy for both veterinarians and technicians, where they can get some, you now, advanced training outside of vet school and tech school, on physical therapy. There's a lot of human physical therapists that are now doing veterinary physical therapy, and you know, while I don't know how good they are, you know the Fenzi alumni Facebook page is a great resource if you say okay I need a physical therapist in this area. Can you recommend somebody, or I need a good sports medicine vet or surgeon in this area, can you recommend somebody. The Fenzi Alumni Facebook page is a great resource, and also just talking to friends, and you know it won't hurt to ask your veterinarian what's your experience with this condition, how many have you done, and what's your success rate? People are a little reluctant to do that, but no good veterinarian is going to be insulted if you ask them that, and they should be able to answer. Melissa Breau: I think that's a great piece of advice, just being comfortable asking that kind of question of your vet, or your veterinary surgeon. I mean if you don't ask, you can't know, right. Sue Yanoff: That's true. Melissa Breau: So I wanted to end with the same few questions that I ask everybody that comes on, at the end of the interview. So the first one is, what is the dog-related accomplishment that you're proudest of? Sue Yanoff: Yeah, I thought about it, and it'd have to be the UD on my older beagle now, Charm because Charm is a dog that switched me from you know traditional training to positive reinforcement training, and I had shown her nine times in utility, and nine times she NQ'ed, and people just kept telling me well she's just not putting in any effort. You need to correct her harder, or you need to make her do it. And so the more times she  NQ'ed, the harder I was on her until the final time in utility, I gave her the hell signal and she just sat there, and she basically said nope. I'm done, not doing it. So I thought to myself, there's got to be a better way, and that led to positive reinforcement training, which led to the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy, and after a few weeks off from training, I retrained Charm pretty much all the utility exercises using positive reinforcement, and about nine months later I showed her in utility again, and she got the UD in four shows. So I am really proud of Charm. I feel bad for all the stuff I did to her before I crossed over, but now that I train with positive reinforcement, there's just no comparison. So I'm very proud of Charm for getting her UD. Melissa Breau: Congrats. Sue Yanoff: Thanks. Melissa Breau: So the second questions that I usually ask is, what is the best piece of training advice that you've ever heard? Sue Yanoff: Yeah. Now this is a hard one, because I've been taking classes at FDSA since pretty much Denise started, and there's so much good information, and great advice. But if I had to pick one I'd say it's acclimation, and that is because I've had people tell me don't ever let your dog sniff. Wherever you go new, don't let them sniff. They have to be paying attention to you, like all the time, and it's like you know what. I've tried that with Ivy for a few weeks, and it almost drove both of us crazy. So when I learned about acclimation I thought, yep. This is it. This is the best piece of advice I've gotten. Melissa Breau: And especially I'd imagine with Beagles, that nose, you know. It's a real thing so. The last question is, who is someone else in the dog world that you look up to? Sue Yanoff: Yeah, well it's not anybody that's known in the dog world, because she doesn't teach classes, and she doesn't have a blog, and she, you know, doesn't do anything online. But she's a friend of mine who I've known since college. We met through dogs. When I was getting a CDX on my first beagle, she was getting a CDX on her first keeshond and since then she has been put multiple notches in herding titles, and some agility titles on her border collies, but she's also put multiple OTCHs on her Keeshonds, and all of her OTCHd kees are also breed champions, some of them bred by her. So there's a lot of, you know, trainers out there who have trained another dog other than a border collie, or a golden, or a sheltie whatever to an OTCH, and they do it once, and they never do it again. But Marian has, I think had, at least four or five, if not six champion OTCH keeshonds, and she's got a young keeshond coming up now that just finished her CD with six scores or 199 or above, and one score of 200. So I'm sure that's a future OTCH. So you know, I don't agree with everything she does in her training, but her dogs are really good, and they are happy in the ring, and they love her, and she gets OTCHs on keeshond's over, and over, and over again. So I admire her. Melissa Breau: That is quite the accomplishment. Well thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Sue. Sue Yanoff: It was fun. Thanks Melissa. Melissa Breau: It was fun, and thank you to all of our listeners for tuning in. We'll be back next week with somebody that I've gotten lots of requests for. Cassia Turcotte will be here to talk about positive gun dog training, and her upcoming class on channeling dog's natural instincts for high level behaviors while they are in drive. If you haven't already, subscribe to our podcast in iTunes, or the podcast app of your choice, to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. CREDITS: Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzi for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty-free by BenSound.com; the track featured here is called “Buddy.” Audio editing provided by Chris Lang and transcription written by CLK Transcription Services.

Summary: Heather Lawson is a Certified Professional Dog Trainer, a Karen Pryor Academy Certified Training Partner (KPA-CTP), a CGN Evaluator and a Free-style judge. She has been training dogs and their humans for more than 20 years after deciding that the corporate world just wasn't cutting it anymore. She is the owner of dogWISE Training & Behaviour Center Inc., where she teaches group classes for companion pets, competitive obedience, and rally in addition to providing behaviour consults and private lessons.   At FDSA, she teaches several classes focused on life skills, including the upcoming Loose Leash Walkers Anonymous and Hounds About Town; she'll also be teaching a new class on “Match to Sample.” Links Mentioned: www.dogwise.ca Next Episode:  To be released 9/1/2017, featuring Nancy Tucker talking about the roles of emotions in training, and how to modify behaviors when they are tied to strong emotions in our dogs. TRANSCRIPTION: Melissa Breau: This is Melissa Breau, and you're listening to the Fenzi Dog Sports podcast brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy an online school dedicated to providing high quality instruction for competitive dog sports using only the most current and progressive training methods. Today we'll be talking to Heather Lawson. Heather is a certified professional dog trainer, and Karen Pryor Academy certified training partner, a CGN evaluator and a free style judge. She's been training dogs and their humans for more than 20 years after deciding that the corporate world just wasn't cutting it anymore. She's the owner of dogWISE Training & Behavior Center where she teaches group classes for companion pets, competitive obedience, and rally in addition to providing behavior consults and private lessons. At FCSA she teaches several classes focused on life skills, including the upcoming Loose Leash Walkers Anonymous and Hounds About Town. She'll also be teaching a new class on Match to Sample. Hi, Heather, welcome to the podcast. Heather Lawson: Hi, Melissa, glad to be here. Melissa Breau: Looking forward to chatting. SO to start us out, I know we talked about this a little bit before turning on the recording, but do you want to just tell me a little bit about your own dogs, who they are and what you're working on with them? Heather Lawson: Okay. Well, my breed of choice, who happens to be currently rumbling in their crate at the moment, is German Shepard. I have two, one a male by the name of Tag, who is 11 years old and he's retired from active working. He's just a family companion and does everything else that Piper does but on a lower schedule, and then I have Piper who is a 2-year-old female, and she's my current work in progress, and I hope to be taking her into the competitive obedience ring, rally, and anything else that I can wrap my head around with her. Melissa Breau: How did you get your start in the dog sports world? Heather Lawson: Well, as you mentioned in my bio I was in the corporate world, in human resources, retail management, and after about three downsizings consecutively in a row, it was just that time of the ‘90s and so forth, I just decided that I didn't want to go back to work and I'd rather stay home and do things with my dogs, and believe it or not I ended up working at a school, an obedience school back east in Ontario and got competing with my own dogs, and then from there just went all over the place wanting to develop my education and just become a better trainer, and I've had so much fun doing this that I've never looked back on the corporate world since. It's just been so enjoyable because I get to meet so many new dogs and so many lovely people. Melissa Breau: I wanted to ask you a little bit about your training philosophy. How do you approach training? Heather Lawson: For me personally I like to approach it as a teamwork situation. I want to look at the dog that's in front of me and work with what they are giving me, and work at the level that they're capable of at that particular moment I guess you could say. My philosophy, you get the old, ‘Well, I want to do positive,' and everything like that. It just never occurs to me to do anything but positive and I want to make sure that I'm consistent, that I'm fair. I give my animals the better side of me at all times. Above all else my animals are family companions so not only do I have to worry about what I'm doing in training, but I have to worry about what we're doing when we're not training, and so everything has to mesh and come together, and it's just basically a family unit. Melissa Breau: I wanted to talk a little bit about the classes that you're going to be offering coming up in October, so let's start with the Loose Leash Walkers Anonymous class, and I am sure at least once, if not more than that, I will somehow manage to jumble those words because Loose Leash Walkers Anonymous is almost a tongue twister, but why are life skills like that, like leash walking, such an important skill for sports dogs and why is it such an incredibly difficult thing to teach? Heather Lawson: Well, like most people who do dog sports we travel, so we go to competitions, we do things with our dogs, we have to stay in hotels, we have to be out in the public, and having a dog with good manners, including loose leash walking skills I think is very important because your dog is only working and doing those activities for a very short period of time. The rest of it, if they're like most people…my dogs, as I said, are part of my family so when I'm not doing those skills or competitions, or anything like that I'm taking my dogs out into the community. I don't want to be dragged all over the place. I want to be able to take them on the sea bus that goes from one side of the inlet to the other, I want to be able to take them up and down elevators or into stores and do all of those types of things with them without people turning around and saying, ‘Look at that. The dogs out of control,' and I think it's important too even when you're competing that you have your dogs under control, that they're not going in every different direction, they're not dragging you to and from whatever it is that you're doing, whether it's conformation, or obedience, or even agility, or nose work. I mean, sure the dogs get excited but at the same time, it's still nice to have a little bit of management and manners in place, and that's my own personal view, and I think it's important. The other side of it, why is it so hard to teach, simply because we aren't consistent enough, I think, and we don't think of it as a priority, and by priority I mean I picked up on something a long, long time ago from Sue Ailsby, who's also teaching at Fenzi, and that was when the leash goes on that is your only priority of teaching loose leash walking, so getting from A to B is your only priority on a loose leash, and that has never, ever steered me wrong. If we put the leash on at one point and then we go and we let the dog pull us to their favorite friend, or we let them pull us to go and sniff to something, or pull us to go to the dog park. If we're inconsistent in our requirements then we never get that loose leash walking as part of regular manners skill, and you know what…and it's true. If I don't have the time to work on that, if I haven't given myself enough time, if my dogs are going to be excited, and the dogs get excited, and with a little bit of a reset okay. Yeah, okay mom, we remember. If I don't have that time I just will take them and use a muzzle magnet, which is basically a fistful of food, let them nibble on it as I go from point a to b so that I don't get that loose leash pulling, but I get the loose leash, so I try to be consistent with everything that I'm doing, and I think that's why the dogs don't get as far ahead in their loose leash walking because we're also very concerned about teaching them all of these other behaviors that one of the most important things is the loose leash walking because if they don't have that loose leash walking they don't get out into the community, they don't get out to socialize, they're not much a pleasure to be around because they're hard on your shoulder, they're hard on your elbow, hard on your back and so they end up only doing certain things and they don't have a well-rounded life, and especially with pet dogs they end up getting stuck in the backyard so they don't get the exercise. They don't get the exercise then they have problem behaviors, they have the problem behaviors then they get surrendered, so loose leash walking, whether it's for your competitive dogs or for your family companions is one of the most important skills, at least in my view anyways. Melissa Breau: And I think you hit on that, like that consistency point. It's so common to see somebody go into a class, trach loose leash walking, and then the moment they leave the room suddenly they forget everything that they have learned. Heather Lawson: Oh yeah. Yeah, and if I catch my students, my in person students coming up the walkway and the dog is dragging them up they know, they look at me and they immediately turn right around and go down to the back, and they do their leash walking all the way up, so now it's actually a running joke in class, is that oh, she caught us. Uh-oh we've got to go back, and now they've almost…almost every single person who's been there by about week three they all know that they've got to practice their skills coming and going because that's the whole point of it, right. You've got to practice it 24/7 in order for it to stick, and if you don't then it's not going to happen and you're giving the dog an inconsistent message, and dogs don't work in grey they work a little bit better in black and white. Melissa Breau: And I think that kind of leads really well into the next thing I wanted to talk about, which is this idea of the dogs being able to go out and about with you and do things. So I know you also teach the Hounds About Town class, which I'm assuming kind of touches on that a little bit. What are the actual skills that you teach in that class, and how do you approach it? Heather Lawson: Okay. With the Hound About Town, again, we teach loose leash walking, not as in depth as in the Loose Leash Walking Walkers Anonymous, but we teach some loose leash walking. We teach leave it, okay. We don't need hoovers because there's so much garbage, and things like that, and bad things that the dogs could pick up, as well as we don't need them going after that little child in the stroller that's coming towards them with that ice cream cone that's right at their level, so a good leave it comes in handy. Many of the dogs live in condominiums now, so we teach elevator etiquette, which also transfers nicely into riding on transit for those people who are lucky enough to travel on transit. We work on chill and settle on the mat, a little bit of recalls, grooming and touch for the veterinary care, door manners, and some of the other things that we do is we consider etiquette for when you are traveling and staying in hotels, or staying in other locations, and how to manage your dog in busy situations, just the basics, what would you do in your everyday life when you're out and how to make it easier to take your dog with you more places. The other thing that we do is we also encourage people to take their dogs more places, don't just leave them at home all the time, of course weather permitting, because it's good social interaction for our dogs. They don't necessarily have to be always just going to the dog park. They need to be with you and be out and about, and part of the community, and the better behaved animals we have in the community the more access we're going to have for them, and that's the key thing. People say that there isn't that much access for animals, but that's because there's been perhaps maybe some inconvenient encounters that haven't gone so well because the dogs haven't been well-trained. Also too, all of the things that we cover in here can be applied to the…I think in your end of the woods it says CGC, which is the Canine Good Citizen. In our area it's Canine Good Neighbor and then you also have…then there are other levels. The urban K9 title as well. If you were to go through the Hound About Town you would be able to go and take your test and get your certificate, so it's just another way to promote responsible dog ownership, right. Getting them out, getting them trained, and getting them part of the family. Melissa Breau: Now, you didn't touch on two of the things that stood out to me when I was looking at the syllabus, which were the Do Nothing training, and Coffee Anyone, so what are those and obviously how do you address them in class? Heather Lawson: Yeah. I always get kind of weird sideways looks when I talk about do nothing training, because it's kind of like…people say, ‘What do you mean do nothing training,' and I say well, how often do you just work on having your dog do nothing, and everybody looks at me, well, you don't work on having the dog do nothing, and I say oh yeah, you do. That's what we call settle on the mat, chill, learn how to not bug me every time I sit down at the computer to do some work, not bark at me every time I stop to chat with the neighbor, stop pulling me in all different ways, so it's kind of like just do nothing, because if you think about it the first maybe six months of your dog's life it's all about the dog and the puppy. Then when they get to look a little bit more adult all of a sudden they're no longer the center of attention, but because they've been the center of attention for that first eight weeks to six months, and there's been all this excitement whenever they're out and people stop, and you chat or you do anything it's very hard for the dog all of a sudden now to have this cut off and just not be acknowledged, and this is where you then get the demand barking, or the jumping on the owner, or the jumping on other people to get that attention, whereas if you teach that right in the very beginning, okay, and teach your puppies how to settle, whether it be in an x pen, or in a crate, or even on a mat beside you while you're watching your favorite TV show. If you teach them to settle, and how to turn it off then you're going to not have that much of a problem going forward as they get older. The other thing too is that by teaching the dogs all of these different things that we want to teach them that's great, and that's fabulous, and we should be doing that, but most dogs aren't active 100 percent of the time, they're active maybe 10 percent of the time. The other 90 percent they're chilling out, they're sleeping, they're…while their owners are away working if they're not luck enough to be taken out for a daily hike then they've got to learn how to turn it off, and if we can teach them that in the early stages you don't end up with severe behavior problems going forward and I've done that with all of my puppies, and my favorite place to train the do nothing training is actually in the bathroom. What I do with that is my puppies, they get out first thing in the morning, they go their potty, they come back in, we get a chewy or a bully stick, or a Kong filled with food, and puppy goes into the bathroom with me and there's a mat, they get to lay down on the mat and that's when I get to take my shower, and all of my dogs, even to this day, even my 11-year-old, if I'm showering and the door's open they come in and they go right to their mat and they go to sleep, and they wait for me, and that's that do nothing training right, and that actually even follows into loose leash walking. If you take that do nothing training how often are you out in your loose leash walking and you stop and chat to the neighbor or you stop and you are window shopping or anything else that you when you're out and about. If your dog won't even connect with you at the end of the line then just…they won't even pay attention to you while you're standing there, or they create a fuss then the chances of you getting successful loose leash walking going forward is going to be fairly slim, okay.   The other thing that you mentioned was the coffee shop training, and that is nowadays people go and they meet at the coffee shop or they go for lunch and more and more people are able to take their dogs to lunch, providing they sit out on a patio, and on the occasion where the dog is allowed to stay close to you we teach the dogs to either go under the table and chill or go and lay beside the chair and chill, and teach them how to lay there, switch off, watch the world go by. Even if the waiter comes up you just chill out and just relax and that allows the dog, again because they've got good manners, to be welcomed even more places. Melissa Breau: Right. It makes it so that you feel comfortable taking them with you to lunch or out. Heather Lawson: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. There's lots of places that dogs can go providing, and they're welcome, providing they do have those good manners, and if we can keep those good manners going then regardless of whether or not your dog sports or not it just opens up the avenues for so much more of us to do…more things to do with our dogs. Melissa Breau: I know the Match to Sample class is new, so I wanted to make sure we talk about that too. For those not familiar with the concept I have to admit I wasn't initially and then you kind of explained it, I think, on one of the Facebook lists, so for those who don't know what it is can you kind of explain what that means, Match to Sample? Heather Lawson: The Match to Sample is a type of concept training, so concept think of it as the concept of mathematics. For us we know that if you add one and one you get two. We're thinking you can conceptually see that if somebody asks me for this I can also get that, or we have the idea of big versus small. There's whole different types of varieties of concepts, but match to sample in this particular case is a visual match to sample, so this is where the dog learns to look at an item that the trainer is holding and then find the object on a table that matches the one that the trainer is holding. It sounds a little complicated but it's not really, because of the different things that we…the stages that we go through in order to get them there, so for instance I might hold up a Kong and I might have a Kong, and I might have maybe a treat bag, and I might have a cone, and I might have a ball all in a row in front of me, so I hold up my Kong and I say, ‘Match it,' and the dog looks at that Kong and then has to pick the right item out of that line of items on that table. I'm not saying get the Kong or get the toy, I'm just saying match it. Once they've learned on things they know then we start introducing things that they maybe have never seen before, or they don't normally interact with, and so we teach them that whatever I'm holding look at it and then figure out which one best matches that item and pick it out for me, either by a retrieve, or a nose touch, or targeting it, and it's…actually if you think about it, it's kind of the same thing that they use with nose work, that's a match to sample. Here's this sample, this smell. Now go find it for me. It's sort of what they use with search and rescue. Here's the smell of the person, I need you to find this person. Now go out into the world and match that smell to what I just gave you, and the concept training is neat because it uses most of what we teach our dogs, like shaping. It uses targeting. It uses problem solving and creativity on the dogs' part and it also utilizes behavior change, so it's kind of a fun different thing to do with the dogs and it allows you to really expand and take your thinking past what the dog…you ever thought, maybe, the dog could learn. Even with you're doing a match to sample with a nose in cancer. I'm sure you've heard of them matching cancer cells to see whether or not an individual has cancer cells. It's all match to sample, it's that concept training, right. There are other types of other concepts, which are things such as adduction, where we take one behavior, add it to another behavior and you end up with a third behaviors. That's called adduction, so it's one plus one equals three. It doesn't make sense but it's what it is, so it's one behavior, another behavior, and you make a third behavior, that's where the one plus one equals three comes from. There's actually counting that the dogs are…has been out there now. I think Ken Ramirez is doing counting with dogs. Also learning about mimicry, which is Julie Flannery's class at FDFA, can the dogs copy what you actually do. It's really kind of mind bending and that's what is really interesting me right now, and that's what I'm doing with my youngest dog Piper. I'm teaching her the match to sample as well as we're going to work on…to see whether or not she actually can read, if you will, and I've got flashcards, and so I'm teaching her what this word means and teaching her to see whether or not she can put the two together. You can teach the concepts of big and small, up or down, go back, go forward. It's just really cool stuff. Melissa Breau: That sounds really neat. It sounds like it's a very different, I guess, way of teaching your dog to look at the world, and I'd imagine at least the Match to Sample class would be a really…it would be a good skill to use a dogs' brain, especially if they're on medical for something, they could still do some of that stuff. Stuff like that. It would be just a great training tool to have in your kit. Heather Lawson: Yes, you absolutely hit it on the mark. It's a really good tool because it doesn't require a whole lot of activity, but you do have to have the basics in place. It's not something that you would normally do with a dog that is maybe…doesn't have any idea on shaping, or targeting or playing creative games. It does require a little bit of basics, but it's definitely a great tool for the dog that maybe is not just on medical rest but maybe can't interact with a lot of other dogs, right. Maybe they for some reason…they just need a brain teaser that's going to keep them from going stir crazy, because the more the brain is worked, it's a balance right. Everybody thinks the dogs need exercise, but at the same time they need to have that little brain tingled a little bit, and if you don't balance that off then you get a dog that kind of goes stir crazy, and again, it harkens back to not being able to shut off when needed, right, so it definitely is because it's…you train all different kinds of new behaviors and it's just another thing to draw on that trainers toolbox, if you will, to sort of expand and see just what your dog can do. We often forget and we start to label our dogs as they can only do this, right. I think they can do way more than we give them credit for, and that's what kind of tweaks my interest a little bit, aside from the competitive obedience stuff that I do with them as well. Melissa Breau: I do want to talk for just a second more about that, about the idea of how maybe somebody could use those skills to teak some of the other things that they might want to teach. We talked a little bit about how you could teach it as a brain teaser, and as concepts. You mentioned nose work a little bit in there and kind of this idea of teaching a bigger picture. Are there other ways that that skill can be used and other behaviors that you can use those skills in, is it about communication? Heather Lawson: It's about communication, so say for instance if we harken back to, say, search and rescue. The dog has to make sometimes independent because they're out searching and they've been sent out, and they're searching, and they're going back and they're searching and what are they supposed to do. I've found the person, do I stick with the person, do I come back, so that training aspect of it is that they come back, they tell you that they're there and then they go back to that person that's lost. I guess you could sort of put it down to it teaches your dogs to be creative. Now I don't know if that's a good thing or not. I've had a situation with my own dog when I was competing a number of years ago where I threw the dumbbell and it went outside the ring but there was access for her to go around a gate and get it and then come back, and rather than stick her head through and get caught at it, she looked at it, she looked down either side of it and then she backed up and went around got the dumbbell and came back and completed her exercise, so had I just taught it in basic format, go out, get it, come back, whatever, and I hadn't taught her how to be creative we might've failed that whole class, but she did it. She started to think on her own, and that's what I appreciate in the dogs is that they can figure it out, they can problem solve and I don't think that we really truly understand just how much problem solving ability that our dogs really do have, and I'm constantly amazed at how they develop that problem solving, and we sometimes forget because we're teaching them all of these specific behaviors that we want them to do and we don't let them sometimes expand on those, and I think that is the role it plays for me in my larger training toolbox, is it allows me to just sit back and say okay, so what if we did this? Can you do that, and the dog goes, yeah, sure I can do that and then you're off on a different tangent, so it does definitely take your training in different ways, but it also really expands your training and your appreciation for the dog and their capabilities. Melissa Breau: So it sounds like there are kind of two pieces there, right, to kind of distill that down a little bit. There's the idea of helping your dog be the best they can be, in terms of as smart they can be, as capable as they can be, and then there's this piece about teaching them how to be creative problem solvers, which I'd assume also makes things like proofing and fluency much easier. Heather Lawson: Yeah, exactly because they grasp the concepts much quicker, and I know for…this isn't really on the match to sample side of it, but if you consider, say, the…I taught her the chin rest, okay, and it's one of the nest things I ever taught this dog because the chin rest taught her how to be just still, and that stillness transferred into my dumbbell, it transferred into her being examined by a judge in the confirmation ring, and it transferred into her stays, so just that simple thing of a chin rest with duration, or even a duration of the nose touch transferred in and taught her the concept of holding still and waiting until she was released, and it was such an easy transfer of that one single skill of holding skill went to so many different other behaviors, and I'd never taught it that way before, but I'm so glad I did with Piper because it just sort of went oh, that transfers into all kinds of things, and it really made me go you really get this, and so there's a concept there but in a different way than the match to sample, so it's what are we teaching them?It's not just a sit there and hold that position until I tell you otherwise it's just the concept of can you transfer this, oh you understand it, so that's why I like the concept training, such as the adduction, the mimicry, the copy behaviors, the match to sample. All of those things are really kind of mind benders. Melissa Breau: I wanted to wrap things up by asking you the three questions that I usually ask at the end of the podcast. Heather Lawson: Okay. Melissa Breau: The first one is what is the dog related accomplishment that you are proudest of? Heather Lawson: The biggest and best accomplishment was with my dog Micha, who's long gone, but she was a dog, German Shepherd, that had a few demons inside, just that she was very sensitive and very aware of sound, and so she was a little concerned when things…even the crack of a bat at a baseball game, or tennis, or things like that, loud speakers God help us, was an issue, and she was also sometimes concerned about people as well. She was a friendly dog, there's nothing in that issue, but everybody told me you'll never get this dog in the ring. You'll never be able to compete with her, and I sat down one day and I was really kind of in tears and I said okay, this isn't working. What are we going to do? How can I help you through this, and the moment I switched that in myself we just were away to the races. It wasn't about getting her to do it, it was how can I help her through it, and I ended up taking her Top 10 Obedience Dogs in Canada twice, two years straight, and she ended up being the top obedience driven Shepard in Canada five years straight. It was nice to be able to do that but at the same time it was, I guess, just sort of really in my heart that wow, when you don't give up and you don't listen to everybody and you just listen to the dog amazing things can happen, and I think that's my proudest accomplishment, I guess, is working with Micha. She taught me so very much and I really appreciate her allowing me the gift of making all my mistakes with her, but we ended up on a high and I'll never forget that dog ever, but that's my proudest accomplishment so far. Melissa Breau: I think that's a pretty good one. Heather Lawson: Yeah. Melissa Breau: All right, so my next question is what is the best piece of training advice that you've ever heard? Heather Lawson: Oh geez, there's been so many different pieces. I guess the best is work with your dog, be a team, and don't label your dog because you'll limit their abilities. So you know how people will sometimes oh, it's the breed. They just do that because they do that? I never try to label or limit what my dogs can do. I always assume that they're going to rise to the occasion, that they're going to do the best that they can, and I think that's probably been the best advice because it's taken me into different types of sports that I might not have ventured into with my dogs. One of my dogs I did nose work with, that was her thing, so if I had labeled her and said no, you're going to do this, you're not going to do that it might not have been the best thing for her but because I let her lead me where she wanted to go and I took what she had to give me we had loads of fun doing nose work and I learned new sport, so I always think of that as work with your dog and be a team, and then don't label your dog because you'll limit them and yourself. Melissa Breau: My last question. You're in a great position because I know you mentioned Sue earlier and you've been good friends with the Fenzi crew for a while now, I know you're pretty involved, so who is someone else in the dog world that you look up to? Heather Lawson: Somebody else in the dog world. Well, I'm not going to name names because I think…but what I find is that there's no one specific individual. What I have done is I've been able to meet many different people, many fabulous trainers that I just go wow. Now that's interesting, and that's…what I do is I pick up all the little tidbits from all of these different trainers and I think that's what's the most important thing, because I don't want to get caught up in a recipe because there is no recipe. I could name different kinds of people but I think it's better to say that I just pick up all the little tidbits along the way that pertain to me and my dogs at that particular time, and that way…and what works for me, because not one single dog trainer will have everything that I'm going to need, and so if I keep my mind open I'm going to get those little tidbits that's going to make me and my dog better. Melissa Breau: All right. Well, thank you, so much, for coming on the podcast, Heather. Heather Lawson: You're more than welcome. This was fun, a little bit nervous, but fun, exciting. I could talk dogs for hours. Melissa Breau: Hey, me too. Heather Lawson: I've had fun doing this. This was very enjoyable. Thanks for asking me on. Melissa Breau: Thanks so much for coming on the podcast Heather -- and thanks to our listeners for tuning in. We'll be back next week with Nancy Tucker to discuss greetings, separation anxiety, and behavior modification techniques that work for both parts of the human-canine team. If you haven't already, subscribe to our podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. CREDITS: Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzi for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty-free by BenSound.com; the track featured here is called “Buddy.” Audio editing provided by Chris Lang and transcription written by CLK Transcription Services.

Summary: Lori Stevens is an animal behavior consultant, a professional dog trainer, a canine fitness trainer, an animal massage practitioner, and a senior Tellington TTouch® Training practitioner. She continually studies how animal behavior, movement, learning, fitness, and health interact. She uses intimidation-free, scientific, and innovative methods, in an educational environment, to improve the health, behavior, performance, and fitness of animals. Lori gives workshops worldwide and has a private practice in Seattle, WA. She is also the creator of the Balance Harness. Lori's most recent of 3 DVDs By Tawzer Dog Videos is co-presented with Kathy Sdao and called 'The Gift of a Gray Muzzle: Active Care for Senior Dogs.' It focuses on improving the life of senior dogs. She will be teaching at FDSA in August for the first time, with a class on the same topic, called Helping Dogs Thrive: Aging Dogs. Links mentioned: The Gift of a Gray Muzzle: Active Care for Senior Dogs Helping Dogs Thrive: Aging Dogs Seattle TTouch (Lori's Website) The Feldenkrais Method Next Episode:  To be released 8/4/2017, featuring Amy Johnson talking about taking photographs of our pets.  TRANSCRIPTION: Melissa Breau: This is Melissa Breau and you're listening to the Fenzi Dog Sports Podcast brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy, an online school dedicated to providing high quality instruction for competitive dog sports, using only the most current and progressive training methods. Today we'll be talking to Lori Stevens. Lori is an animal behavior consultant, a professional dog trainer, a canine fitness trainer, an animal massage practitioner, and a senior Tellington TTouch training practitioner. She continually studies how animal behavior, movement, learning, fitness, and health interact. She uses intimidation free, scientific, and innovative methods in an educational environment to improve the health, behavior, performance, and fitness of animals. Lori gives workshops worldwide and has a private practice in Seattle, Washington. She is also the creator of the balance harness. Lori's most recent of three DVDs by Tawzer Dog Videos is co-presented with Kathy Sdao, and called The Gift of a Gray Muzzle: Active Care for Senior Dogs. It focuses on improving the life of senior dogs. She will be teaching at FDSA in August for the first time with a class on the same topic called Helping Dogs Thrive: Aging Dogs. Hi, Lori. Welcome to the podcast. Lori Stevens: Hello. Thanks for having me on. Melissa Breau: I'm excited to shout today. Lori Stevens: Yeah, me too. Thanks, Melissa. Melissa Breau: Absolutely. So to get us kind of started out, can you tell us a little bit about your own dogs, kind of who they are, and what you're working on with them? Lori Stevens: Yes. So I'm going to talk about two. One is with me now because both of them actually got me into this business. So right now, I have a 12 year old Aussie named Cassie, and I got her when she was two years old, and at two, what I was working on is very different from what I'm working on now with her. At two we worked on a lot of behavior related issues, especially on leash, what you might label reactivity. She was barking a lot every day, she was unfamiliar, really, with being out in the world, and so I learned a lot from her. Basically, you know, how do you calm, and communicate, and build trust with the dog that basically didn't have trust in the world, so I learned loads from her, and we're always working on life with her. Our sport is fitness. We started out in agility, but over time, I figured out that, that was really hard for her, she wasn't really enjoying it, probably because of all the environmental sensitivity, and as much as I worked with her it just didn't seem like her thing. She loved it when she was running, but when she wasn't running it was really hard to hear all the noises and see the other dogs running, so we moved on, so now we do fitness, we do standup paddle boarding, we do lots of hikes, and now I'm living with an aging dog. So I actually have firsthand experience now in living with a dog that's getting older, but I wanted to bring up my first dog because that is the dog, Emmy, who got me into any of this work at all, and basically, she had a lot of health challenges, a lot of physical challenges, I learned just loads of stuff from her, and that's how I originally got into TTouch Training and massage, so I'll talk a little bit about that more, but I just want to bring up that Emmy is always present, even though she's been gone 10 years. She's been gone quite a while. Melissa Breau: They do manage to have quite a lasting impact sometimes. Lori Stevens: That is so true. So true. Melissa Breau: So what led you to where you are now? I mean, you started to mention Emmy a little bit, but how did you kind of end up working with dogs for a living? Lori Stevens: Well, so Emmy had all these physical issues and I just took a TTouch class, basically, to learn things to help Emmy, and I kept going to my vet, and my vet kept saying you're just doing wonderful work with her, if you would just get cards made up I would send all my clients to you, sent lots of clients to you, and it's kind of strange because…I won't say when, but way back when I ended up with a degree in computer science, but before that I was in occupational therapy, and I was also in the University Dance Company. I danced for many years, so I have this kind of weird dual interest, both in things physical, movement, bodywork. I always had that interest with occupational therapy and dance, but then I ended up in IT for many, many years. I just retired from the University in April 2017, from the university of Washington, but in 2005 I started my practice, and that was at the urging of a vet, so I got cards made up, and I didn't really think a lot was going to come of it, but in fact, that built my practice. So I went to four days a week at the University and had a practice one day a week for a long time, and then I went half time at the University. I just kept, you know, kind of building my practice and working in IT, and am out of IT, and totally focused on animals, which is fantastic. Melissa Breau: Indeed. Congrats. That's so exciting being able to focus on that full time. Lori Stevens: Yes, it is. Now I'm spending full time writing this course, which is really great fun, but it's a lot of work, and so it's a good thing I don't have my job too. Melissa Breau: So there are lots of kind of interesting pieces there, right? Just kind of all the different things that you work with, and all the different techniques you have, but I want to start with TTouch. So for those not familiar with it at all can you kind of explain what it is? Lori Stevens: I can. You're right, there's all those pieces, and oddly enough, they do all fit together, but what is Tellington TTouch Training? So people here touch and they think it's only body work, but Tellington TTouch Training is actually a lot more than body work. It is body work, and there are a variety of body work touch techniques, but there's also an element of it that is movement, which includes slowing down dogs and having them move precisely over various equipment on different movement patterns over different surfaces, stopping, turning, really slowing down the nervous system and letting them feel themselves, their bodies, in a way that maybe they haven't felt them before. It's interesting how many dogs move really, really fast, and it's uncomfortable for them to move really slowly when they're working with someone, so you learn a lot from that, and there's also several tools and techniques that go along with TTouch. One of those is leash walking and making it more comfortable for dogs to walk on a leash, and to fit well in their equipment, and that's pretty much how, you know, it's that awareness that caused me to develop, over years, the balance harness, but there's also the really learning to observe the dogs, and to give them choice. So there's a lot in TTouch that many years ago other people weren't really focusing on, and now, thankfully, many people are focusing on it all over the place, so it's kind of nice that, you know, it's now overlapping more with other work that people are doing, and anyway, I hope that gives you a better idea, but it's not just body work. Melissa Breau: Okay. So I wanted to ask kind of how it works too, and does it work for all dogs, is it something that works, you know, for some dogs better than others, is it something I could learn to do? I mean, how does that all kind of work? Lori Stevens: Absolutely, you could learn to do it. Does it work for all dogs? I have to answer that…and you know, of course, there's an element of it that works for all dogs, but you have to define what you mean by works, and everything depends on the dog and what you're trying to do, but the thing that makes Tellington TTouch work unique is that it's not habitual. In other words, the way you touch the dog is not the way the dog is used to being touched, so it sort of gets the attention of the nervous system in a different way. The way you move the dogs is different from how they typically move, so it kind of gets their attention in another way. It's almost as if they're listening to the work sometimes. It's super interesting. The nice thing about it is that I can get a dog that's so fearful in my practice that I can't touch the dog, but I have other tools to use with that dog, so I can move the dog, and over time, with that movement I build trust and we have a dialog going on between us, and eventually, that dog says okay, I'm ready to be touched now. I mean, they really do, they come up to your hands, and then once you start the touch work you've got another set of things you can do, so it's really got a depth to it that isn't so visible on the surface, and the fact that it's called TTouch often just leads people into thinking that it's just this one thing where you touch your dog. There's work in humans called Feldenkrais, so it was developed years ago, and it's a technique that moves people in nonhabitual ways to kind of develop new neural pathways to give them freedom of movement again. So people that have serious injuries, and they're, you know, varying them for whatever reason, a variety of reasons, have very limited movement, they can work with the Feldenkrais practitioner, or in a Feldenkrais class called Awareness Through Movement that really slows down and moves your body into nonhabitual patterns to regain new freedom of movement in your own body. It teaches your body to move in another way to get to the same place. Linda Tellington Jones, who developed Tellington TTouch Training, went through that Feldenkrais training for…she did it in order to work with the riders in our Equine Center, the horse riders, so then she started applying those ideas, and those techniques to animals, and that's where the work came from.      Melissa Breau: Interesting. Lori Stevens: I know. It's a well-kept secret. Melissa Breau: So you know, you're also a small animal massage practitioner, and you're a certified candidate in massage, so how did those pieces kind of mesh? What are some of the differences between something like TTouch and massage, how do you use them in conjunction? Lori Stevens: There is overlap and there's also quite a bit of difference, so with my massage training I can really focus on if I'm working with a dog who is super tight in the shoulders from doing too much agility over the weekend, and has big knots, you know, I can get those knots out because I have that training. Also, my training is in rehabilitation massage, so I can do manual lymphatic drainage, so if the dog has lymphoma say, and has huge swollen lymph nodes in the neck that you can actually see how swollen the lymph nodes are, I can do this very gentle work to bring that swelling down, to move the lymph node system lymph fluid again, so I can do very specific work that has a very physical effect. In TTouch body work I can work on a tail and change the behavior of a dog, so…what? So it's very different, you're more working with fascia and skin in the nervous system than you are working muscles, although muscles can change as well. Both of the techniques can change gate. It's all very, very interesting how, you know, both of them can change gate from working on the bodies, and I'm sure there's a lot of overlap, even when you're focusing on different things, but they really have kind of a different focus. And the TTouch work is much…I won't say lighter, because they both can be quite light, like even when I'm working on a knot in a muscle I don't dig in there, you know, I'm very…I go with the muscle, but I would just say they have a different focus, and therefore, you can end up with a different result. And the TTouch body work can actually…I see more changes in behavior than I do with massage, and I don't know if that's because I'm focused upon that, I don't know. I mean, it's kind of interesting, but you know, when a dog gets really uptight, often times out on a walk, my dog's tail will start to go up. That will be one of the first things I see. Maybe her ears and head, but I'll see her tail go up. If I actually reach down and just stroke her tail and bring her tail back down it actually brings her back down. Melissa Breau: Interesting. Lori Stevens: Yeah, I know. It's kind of interesting. I might have to teach that in my next Fenzi course. Melissa Breau: Hey, I'd certainly be interested in learning a little more about it. So it sounds like to me…and I could be totally of base, obviously, but if the TTouch is a little bit more focused on kind of the physical and behavioral tied together, whereas, the massage is more kind of on the physical and performance side. Is that kind of right? Lori Stevens: Well, sure. You can put it that way. I would just say they are different techniques. There is overlap, but there are different techniques. TTouch in no way does it do manual inside drainage, for example, that is a massage technique, and when I'm doing just message to get knots out I'm not generally looking for changes in behavior. I'm looking for changes in the body. So…I don't know, I mean, they're both touching the body, both body work. Melissa Breau: Now, you're also a certified canine fitness trainer, so how does that factor in? Lori Stevens: So that factors into the movement work, so I have been doing the Tellington TTouch training moment work for years, and it wasn't really getting dogs to the point that…it wasn't getting them where I wanted them to go if they were showing weakness in their muscles. Having a background in dance and being active my entire life, I was really looking for ways of helping the dogs be stronger, and more flexible, and more agile, and more confident, and blah blah blah, and some of those TTouch gave, and some of those it didn't, so it was natural for me to take it a step further. I mean, all the stuff I do sounds like a bunch of certifications, but they're all really interwoven. I had been doing some fitness with dogs for years, and then when the University of Tennessee offered the certified canine fitness trainer program and partnership with Fitpaws I jumped on it, because that was the first program that I saw that I thought would be worth doing, and just going ahead and getting my certification in it, plus I learned things. When I see…especially a dog's age, is weakness, or you know, I see habitual movement patterns that maybe a dog got injured when they were two, and at six they're still carrying the same pattern, they just never quit taking all their weight off their back right foot, say, so fitness really allowed me to take it a step further and help those dogs get back to being more functional, and stronger. And it's really fun, and it's a fantastic way of building trust, and enjoying communication with your dog. It's just another…well, like I said, it's my sport, one of my sports, so I just think it's fantastic. Melissa Breau: So I want to kind of shift gears for a minute and look at your interest in older dogs. What led to that? Was it Cassie getting older or was it something else? Lori Stevens: No, no. I've been working with older dogs for years. It's funny how long I worked with them before I had one, although, I have had older dogs before, but because of the kind of work I was doing the veterinarians were sending lots of senior dogs to me, and because I was helping them get functional again, and helping them feel better I just kept getting them, so I had a lot of experience. Even in 2005 I was getting the older dogs sent to me and I just kept building up that knowledge of working with them, and helping them feel better. I wonder what year it was. I want to say it was 2014, but I can't be certain. Kathy Sdao and I decided to do Gift of a Gray Muzzle together and really focus on aging dogs in a video in our workshop. We just gave that workshop recently again. It's kind of a passion of mine because you know, everybody when they get a puppy they're very enthusiastic about their new puppy, and you know, they have to learn a bunch of things, but there's a motivation to learn a bunch of things because you have a new puppy, you just went out and got it, but our dogs age gradually, and it's not the same kind of oh boy, I've got an aging dog, and I'll go out and learn all these new things. You know, books on aging dogs don't sell, and the thing is that there's a real joy of working with aging dogs, and watching them get new light in their eyes, and watching them physically get through things that maybe they weren't getting through before, so anyway, that's what led me to it. Melissa Breau: To kind of dig into that a little more, what are some of the issues that older furry friends tend to struggle with where your training and presumably, also your upcoming class may be able to help?      Lori Stevens: Well, I think even with people, keeping our dogs minds, or keeping our minds and bodies active is incredibly important, and this thing happens as dogs age is they all of a sudden get really comfortable sleeping for a very long time, and I think we go…especially if we have more than one dog I think we kind of say to ourselves well, our older dog's fine, you know, I'll put more energy into my younger dog, you know, maybe don't think that, but that's what ends up happening, and then one day you notice oh my god, the hind end strength is going, and the proprioception is going, which both of those naturally diminish with age. I better say what proprioception is. Proprioception is your conscience ability to know where your body is in space during movement, so if you think of a toddler at a certain age, they can't hold their cup up with juice in it, they're just pouring it upside down and then they're upset their juice is gone, but then at a certain age they suddenly know how to keep their cup upright while they move. That's proprioception. Well, you lose it with age, and so you have dogs that used to be able to step over and run over everything, running into low poles, or low logs, or whatever, and so hind end strength and proprioception naturally diminish with age, and so in the course, and when I work with older dogs, and when I do the workshops, that's what I'm helping people do is get those back. Also, I think we're not quite prepared as humans to all of a sudden, we have this senior dog, and our dog can't do as much as it could do before, and so we have to change as well, so how do our expectations need to change, and how can we make this time together, which hopefully, will be many years as wonderful as it can be. You know, we have to change our expectations, and rather them be disappointed, find joy in that as much as our dogs need to find joy in a different kind of life as well. Not meaning…this isn't bad, this is all good stuff. I mean it all in a very good way. It's just that's it's different, and so you know, in the course I give lots of tips on the easiest way to get your dog in and out of a car, or on the sofa, the functional things that dogs could do when they were younger, sometimes those go away, and so how do we bring back that function or maintain that function and joy with our aging dogs. So we'll be doing lots of activities in that course on keeping our dogs minds and bodies active, but also tools and techniques we can use to participate in making their lives as good as we can. Did that help? Melissa Breau: Absolutely. So if you were to make one recommendation for everyone listening who happens to have an aging or older dog, what would it be? Is it about mind shift, is it about, you know, exercise? I mean, what kind of piece would you pull out of that? Lori Stevens: Well, I certainly have one. Surprise, surprise. I would say be your dog's advocate, trust yourself. If you suspect something is wrong, be a detective until you get to the source. I can't tell you how many times the answer is well, your dog's getting older, you know, you're making stuff up, or that's just natural, your dog's getting older, and there really has been something, so I do think it's really, really important to be your dog's advocate, and to trust yourself, and it's okay to take your older dog to acupuncture appointments, or TTouch appointments, or massage appointments, or swimming appointment, you know, whatever you want to do to make yourself feel better. That's a good thing, but if you notice that…and your dog feel better, but if you notice something seems off it can be really hard to find what it is, and just be your dog's advocate is all I can say. Go to another vet if your veterinarian isn't willing to work with you through figuring out what it is. Melissa Breau: And finally, the questions I ask  in every episode. I want to ask you kind of the same three questions that I asked everybody whose come on so far. So to start, what's the dog related accomplishment that you are proudest of? Lori Stevens: My observation skills. I mean, they have developed since 2005 and I'm happy that I can now recognize how developed they are, and how important observation skills are, and really honoring the dog's needs rather than my own agenda, right. I mean, you know, sometimes it's natural when you have a practice to think through I'm getting ready to see this person and dog, and here's my agenda for the hour-long session, we're going to do it, X, Y, and Z, and then the dog gets there and goes no, we're not, you know, I want to do something else. So really being observant to be able to tell that, and then honoring the dog's needs, and the person, of course, has the say in what you do as well, but you know, really honoring the dog's needs. And I've actually…I will say it's only happened once since 2005, but I lost a client for not forcing a dog to do things, so I didn't mind losing that client, but… Melissa Breau: It's important to stand up for your principles and kind of do what you believe is the right thing. Lori Stevens: Yeah, and I'm just not comfortable forcing dogs into position for a massage. Melissa Breau: Right. So what about training advice, what is the best piece of training advice that you've ever heard? Lori Stevens: You know, it's funny. I don't really think these are what you have in mind, but… Melissa Breau: That's okay! Lori Stevens: Yeah. Meet the dog where she is or he is. That was the best piece of advice I heard and that was in TTouch, but just kind of change to meet both learners, the dog and the person, where they are. You can't really tell people to change, right, you have to guide them gently, and kind of move with them when they're really to move. People have to decide for themselves to make changes, and communication is so incredibly important. I've seen dogs and people go from, you know, a pretty dark place to an incredible place, and I'm so thrilled with what, you know, with the influence that I had on that. I would have to say just meeting everybody where they are, and recognizing how important communication is, and that it's not just about what we think, or how we think it should be done, but bringing the person and dog along at their own pace. Melissa Breau: And finally, who is someone else in the dog world that you look up to? Lori Stevens: Well, you know there's several, but I have to say Dr. Susan Friedman and Ken Ramirez probably are two top. Melissa Breau: Ken's well regarded among the FDSA staff. I've heard his name a couple of times now. Lori Stevens: Yeah. He's pretty great. So is Dr. Susan Friedman. I think you'll hear her name more and more if you haven't already. Melissa Breau: Cool. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Lori. Thank you so much. I appreciate you having me on. Melissa Breau: I feel like I learned a ton. Lori Stevens: That's great. Melissa Breau: Yeah. And thank you to all of our listeners for tuning in. We'll be back next week with Amy Johnson to discuss photography and our dogs. If you haven't already, subscribe to our podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice to have or next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available.      CREDITS: Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzi for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty-free by BenSound.com; the track featured here is called “Buddy.” Audio editing provided by Chris Lang and transcription written by CLK Transcription Services.  

Summary:   Sara Brueske has been training dogs for over 15 years; she became a Karen Pryor Academy Certified Training Partner in 2011 and jumped into the world of professional dog training. Sara and her dogs work at Purina Farms in Missouri where they demonstrate the sports of disc, agility, and dock diving for the public in over 400 shows each year. She and her dogs also compete nationwide. Currently, she is active in the sports of disc dog, agility, mondioring and dock diving -- plus, she's a trick dog enthusiast. Sara has recently re-entered the world of competitive Disc Dog and is the 2016 overall UpDog International Champion as well as the 2017 UpDog Freestyle Champion. Sara believes in positive reinforcement not only for dogs, but for their handlers as well.  Her biggest joy in training is watching a handler and dog become partners and grow as a team. Links mentioned: Disc Dog Discussions Facebook Group Heeling is just another Trick DVD Drinking from the Toilet, What to do when you get stuck (full episode) Next Episode:  To be released 7/7/2017, featuring Laura Waudby. TRANSCRIPTION: Melissa Breau: This is Melissa Breau and you're listening to the Fenzi Dog Sports Podcast brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy, an online school dedicated to providing high-quality instruction for competitive dog sports using only the most current and progressive training methods. Today we'll be talking to Sara Brueske. Sara Brueske has been training dogs for over 15 years; she became a Karen Pryor Academy Certified Training Partner in 2011 and jumped into the world of professional dog training. Sara and her dogs work at Purina Farms in Missouri where they demonstrate the sports of disc, agility, and dock diving for the public in over 400 shows each year. She and her dogs also compete nationwide. Currently, she is active in the sports of disc dog, agility, mondioring and dock diving -- plus, she's a trick dog enthusiast. Sara has recently re-entered the world of competitive Disc Dog and is the 2016 overall UpDog International Champion as well as the 2017 UpDog Freestyle Champion. Sara believes in positive reinforcement not only for dogs, but for their handlers as well.  Her biggest joy in training is watching a handler and dog become partners and grow as a team. Hi Sara! Welcome to the podcast. Sara Brueske: Hi Melissa, thank you for having me! Melissa Breau: Absolutely. I'm excited to chat a little bit.   Sara Brueske: Definitely. Melissa Breau: So, to start us out, can you tell us a bit about your dogs and what you're working on with them? Sara Brueske: I have a whole bunch of dogs. My job kinda dictates that i have more dogs than the average owner. I have 14 current in my household. So all 14 of them are either in training or participate in my job, which is doing shows at Purina Farms. I compete with a handful of them outside of that job as well. So it depends on the dog, what I'm working on with them. My main sports that i do with all of my dogs is agility, disc, and dock diving. And my malinois i compete and train in mondioring as well.   Melissa Breau: Do you want to give us a little bit of an idea of who you have in the household? I know you've got a mix of breeds and all sorts of stuff. Sara Brueske: Yeah, Sure! I'll do the run down. I have a whole bunch - I really like variety. I have 3 australian koolies, which is a little bit of a rare herding breed here in the United States. I imported 2 of them from Australia and I had my very first litter this year, so I have their daughter, too. She's about 11 weeks old now. And then I have 2 border collies, both of them are rescues. I have a border staffy, who is a rescue as well, and a whippet -- a rescue actually from the same house as the border staffy. I have 4 malinois, one of those is actually a permanent foster through the malinois ranch rescue in Tennessee. And I have a boston terrier mix, a papillion, and a labrador. Melissa Breau: Wow, some of those I actually hadn't seen pictures of before; it's definitely a household, huh? Sara Brueske: It's a full household, they're all very very active dogs other than the elderly foster; she's a little bit slow these days, but… Melissa Breau: How did you get started with all of this? Obviously, where you are today -- it probably took a little while to get there, but how did you first get started in dog sports? Sara Brueske: I was actually 11 years old when I begged my parents to let me buy my very first sport dog. I wanted a border collie and i wanted to compete in agility and that was because I watched the Purina Incredible Dog Challenge on TV. So I saved up all my money, and I found a border collie in a newspaper, which is the worst place to get a dog, and we went out and i bought my border collie. And so then I did my backyard training -- we had stick-in-the-ground weave poles made out of PVC, my tunnel was actually a construction drainage pipe that my dad found and gave me, and that's how I trained all my agility and I started competing as a junior handler. He actually got injured, and so I had to stop training him in sports and that's when I figured out about trick training. When he was 7 years old, he knew about 50 different tricks. Melissa Breau: wow. Sara Brueske: So like, high five and wave and spin, and other ones were throwing away my empty soda cans, and turning off the light because by then i was a lazy teenager. Melissa Breau: That's awesome. So I think that just goes to prove that anybody… people don't have an excuse if you could do it in your backyard with sticks and PVC pipe… Sara Brueske: Exactly! And I think my parents always were hoping that I'd outgrow this, go to school and maybe be a veterinarian, but here I am, with 14 dogs and training is my career. Melissa Breau: So agility is generally thought of as pretty positive -- same with trick dog training. Have you always been a positive trainer? Sara Brueske: I actually wasn't -- I was kind of what you'd consider a balanced trainer back then. All my agility training and trick training, that was all done with clickers, so I had read up on clickers and learned how to do that, kind of a self-study, but my parents were very much punishment based and they should be dogs and they should behave as dogs. And so that's kind of the background I have with that. I didn't have any formal dog training, so it's a mish-mash of everything you can imagine… and I actually was that way until I had a great dane and he was not the most balanced - mentally - dog, he was a little bit reactive and he was a big dog, and everyone told me I had to show him who's boss, and everything else and alpha roll him, and come-to-jesus moments and all that. Well, the dog out weighed me and it wasn't working. So that was when I switched and I became a positive-only trainer. That helped him tremendously. Melissa Breau: And I know that now you've done the Karen Pryor Academy, and everything else -- it sounds like that was kind of your pivot moment there… but it sounds like then you went that next step with it, right? Sara Brueske: Absolutely. So when i had that great dane i also actually on the path to becoming a professional dog trainer. I was looking for ways to enhance my education, looking for places to teach group classes, and that's where the Karen Pryor Academy came into place - it was a formal education that I could put on my resume and show people that I was serious about becoming a dog trainer. Melissa Breau: So, I think most dog trainers -- at least professional dog trainers -- would say their dogs are both their life and their work, right? Because of the nature of what you do at Purina, it seems like it takes that to a whole other level. Do you want to just talk for a few minutes about what you do a Purina and what that's like? Sara Brueske: Sure. So my job at Purina is to promote pet ownership and Purina believes that your life is really enhanced by owning a pet, so my job at Purina, at Purina Farms is to talk to the public, promote pet ownership by putting on shows every single day. So my shows are three times a day, 6 days a week. And I bring my dogs with me to work everyday and we show them what you can do with rescue dogs, what you can do with your dog at home, which is really why i like to have a variety of dogs. So my goal at Purina is to hear the audience go, “We should go home and train Sparky to do that.” That's my favorite thing ever to hear. It means they're going to go home and play with their dog -- and that's huge to me. And so, because we do so many shows a day I actually bring between 11 and 13 dogs with me every single day to work. And that means my dogs are with me from the time I wake up, I feed them, we get ready, we all go to work - I work with them all day long, I come home, I unload them, I feed them, and they're with me all evening. My dogs are literally with me 24/7. Melissa Breau: When do you find time to train, if you're working with them so much? Sara Brueske: To train? So that's my job at Purina, is to train them -- between the shows that's the time that I have to train my dogs and work them and make sure they're getting what they get. Melissa Breau: Wow - that's a very full day. Sara Brueske: It's a very, very full day - yes. Melissa Breau: You're basically relying on your dogs for your livelihood; I'm sure that's had a lot of impact -- and like you said, you're with them 24/7 -- on the actual relationship that you have with them. Do you want to just talk for a minute about how you think that's impacted things for you? Sara Brueske: Sure. It's really… you hear a lot of the time people in my line of profession looking at their dogs like they're just part of their paycheck. They have their job - they're tools of the trade. That's very much NOT how I view them. The reason why i have so many dogs is that i don't want my dogs to be burnt out; I don't want my dogs to hate their job. I want my dogs to have fun, just as much fun as I have working with them. You can't do this job and have that many shows to perform in and only have 6 dogs… you'll end up ruining your relationship with your dog. You'll end up hurting your dog. And really their well-being in the long run is the most important part. That's what I care about the most and that's why i have so many dogs. But, I mean, it is what it is. My dogs pour their heart out for me every single day. And I appreciate that so much. But they also really love what we're doing. So I have dogs that love frisbee, i have dogs that love dock diving, I have dogs that love working with me, and that's a big part of it as well. Melissa Breau: I know you mentioned you typically bring up to 13 of the dogs with you each day… how many tend to compete in any given show? Sara Brueske: So we run 5-6 dog shows. And I rotate through those. So I don't like my dogs to do more than 3 shows a day, and I actually rotate days. So for instance, yesterday it was Zip Tie, Nowie and Taboo and Zuma's day to work. I rotated through those dogs for the show, the other trainer covered the rest of the dogs in the show. And then tomorrow, since today was my day off, I'll have 4 different dogs that I'll put in the show again.   Melissa Breau: It's so interesting, just kind of juggling all of it, and managing schedules. Sara Brueske: Yeah, we count a lot of shows. We tally it all up and make sure everybody's not working too much all the time, and it's helpful having other trainers there because we each pull equal weight on any given day. Melissa Breau: So I want to switch gears and talk a little more specifically about disc -- I know that's kind of what you teach at FDSA. I think, like you were talking about having watched agility on TV, I think a lot of people have seen some of the cool tricks disc dogs can do and I think that some people probably look at it and go, “my dog couldn't do that.” So, I was curious what skills a dog actually needs to be able to learn some of those disc tricks. Sara Brueske: Sure. So freestyle is what you always see on TV and in the incredible dog challenge and really, in reality, that's just a tiny little aspect of the frisbee dog community and the competitions. It's actually not even the most competitive, you could argue. There's a ton of different games you can play with your dog in each competition, in each venue. Just like there's AKC agility, NADAC agility, USDAA and they all have different rules and different games, the same thing applies to disc dog. So your tradition frisbee dog competition will have freestyle and a toss-and-catch competition. And the toss-and-catch competition is just like it sounds -- it's a game of fetch, a timed game of fetch where you get extra points for distance and accuracy, so you want to throw in a certain zone, and how many throws you can get off in a minute or the 90 seconds that you have. So really, to compete in toss and catch at the novice level all you have to do is have a dog that loves to play fetch. I mean, whose dog doesn't really like to go out there in the backyard and catch a frisbee, right? So that's pretty applicable to any dog. Oh so you also have your handler, who has to be able to throw… but lucky in like the novice competition you just have to throw 20 yards, which isn't very far. Then there's other venues, such as UpDog, which is my preferred venue, it's just come out in the last 3 years or so. And they really cater to new disc players -- they do something that's called a roller, which is you throw the disc on it's edge on the ground and it rolls and the dog has to grab that. So you don't even have to be able to throw a frisbee to be able to compete in novice. And they have a bunch of strategy games, each kind of tailoring to each dog's individual strength and each handler's individual strength. So that's kind of cool; they're really starting to incorporate the idea that anybody can play frisbee with their dog, which is really interesting. Melissa Breau: So, in your classes at the academy, what are some of the common things or tricks that you wind up teaching? Sara Brueske: So all the tricks that we wind up teaching in the academy classes, the tricks themselves, are for freestyle. There are some that apply to the other games, such as the flatwork and stuff like that -- and that's just moving your dog around the field and connecting with your dog. That's where I really like to lay my emphasis with my classes, it comes from my agility roots - it's a lot like handing in agility. But the tricks themselves, for freestyle, we teach a whole bunch of different things. We do dog catches - which is where you literally catch your dog, with or without a disc. We do rebounds, which is where… it's kind of like a flyball box turn, but on your body, so the dog hits you and then jumps off. And then leg weaves, which is really good for any sport because it's a nice warm up, and then we also teach things like stalls, where they actually jump up onto a part of your body, and hang out there for a while. Melissa Breau: That's kind of neat. Sara Brueske: Yes, it's very exciting. Melissa Breau: So If somebody's trying to decide if they should take the class, are their any skills they need or their dog needs to start to do some of those tricks? Sara Brueske: We teach all those tricks actually with food, first. So if your dog has food drive, then you're pretty much golden for it. You can actually wind up taking the class and teaching those tricks for food and not ever touching a frisbee if you want to. But ideally, if you want the whole frisbee aspect of the class then your dog should have some sort of toy drive or disc drive, because I don't hit on that a whole lot in the classes. There are plenty of other Fenzi classes that build on toy drive, and I want to make sure that mine focuses just on the frisbee aspect of it. Melissa Breau: If someone was just interested in getting started, what's that first step -- where should they start out? Sara Brueske: The first step, which is what i always recommend to anyone looking at any sport, find a local club, find some local help that can give you hands on help because that hands on help is going to be priceless. And hopefully there's somebody there that's actively competing, and who has gone to the world's level to help you out. That's where I would start. There are a whole bunch of places on facebook that you can look - disc dog discussions is a group that you can check out and they have a whole bunch of different clubs that participate in that discussion group, so you can always post where you are and somebody will chime in to give you some contact information. After that, the online class at Fenzi is a pretty good one for foundation, and there are other online classes as well for disc dog foundations currently. Melissa Breau: Awesome. And kind of the way that we end every episode -- our big three questions -- what's the dog-related accomplishment you're proudest of? Sara Brueske: So I thought long and hard about this question. I have a whole lot of accomplishments that I'm very, very proud of. But the reality of that is that I get to experience something that a lot of people don't get to experience -- forming a new relationship with a whole bunch of different dogs. So in the last 4 years I've had 14 different dogs plus many fosters and dogs I've raised come through my house. And all of those dogs I've started in training and formed relationships with. My most favorite accomplishment i've ever had is with each of those dogs is when that dog really kind of has that light bulb moment and goes, “I really do enjoy working with you. This is fun, this is a game!” That's what I'm most proud of. Melissa Breau: That's definitely like that golden moment, that everybody is looking for, right? To form a relationship. Sara Brueske: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Melissa Breau: So, what's the best piece of training advice you've ever heard? Sara Brueske: That everything's a trick. From my history -- when I couldn't do agility anymore, I just did tricks with my dog. So when I actually started looking into IPO and Mondioring, and looking at these very complicated obedience maneuvers, and precision things it was really kind of eye opening to remember that everything is a trick. And that kind of came from Sylvia Turkman's DVD, Heeling is just another Trick. And that was kind of a light bulb moment for me -- this is just like teaching all those other things I teach. Melissa Breau: I think that's really interesting, because you mentioned it specifically in relation to Mondioring, which is not a sport people look at usually and go, “oh it's just tricks!” Sara Brueske: No they definitely don't. Melissa Breau: And then finally, who is someone else in the dog world that you look up to? Sara Brueske: So Sylvia Turkman. And the reason for that is that when i first started my dog training career she was the one i went to for online classes, i watched all the DVDs, and it was her upbeat attitude and her relationship with her dogs that really inspired me to be that kind of trainer. I wanted [my students] to be happy - i wanted to think that they're still going to come out the other side and they're still going to enjoy their dog and they're sitll going to be having fun. Melissa Breau: Thanks so much for coming on the podcast Sara -- and thanks to our listeners for tuning in! This week have a special treat -- FDSA's own Hannah Branigan Also runs a podcast, called Drinking from the Toilet - and today we're sharing an excerpt from her most popular episode, “What to do when you get stuck.” Enjoy! Hannah Branigan: Hey there - you're listening to Drinking from the Toilet and I'm Hannah Branigan. Today we're going to talk about what you can do when you get stuck. Why are we even talking about this? Well mostly because I was sitting here trying to think what topic i should make my next podcast be about, and I got stuck. I couldn't think of anything to talk about. So I kind of sat here, I looked at a few things on the internet, facebook, took a few pictures of my dog with my phone, and pondered on how many other places in my life I feel stuck, maybe feel like a failure. And at least one of those places in my life where i feel stuck is when I'm training a dog. So I thought, well, let's do a podcast about getting stuck when you're training because I think that's a fairly ubiquitous experience. There's probably people out there that sometimes get stuck when they're trying to train a behavior. And so in my previous life, when I would run into a problem, it really was almost a pattern, really… so I'm working on training a behavior or maybe untraining a behavior problem and I would get so far; I would make a certain amount of progress and then I would get stuck and i would revert to punishment. Maybe intentionally, as a training choice, or unintentionally as an emotional expression of frustration. But either way I would often fall back on these old habits -- after feeling like I was running out of choices. And so as my journey continues, i continue to improve my understanding of behavior, i have a better picture of the behaviors I'm trying to train. My knowledge in that area increases and I think clarity in your goal of your behavior is always helpful. And I learned more and my skill set improved. I had better tools for manipulating behavior and for manipulating contingencies, particularly those using reinforcement. Better understanding of how reinforcement works --  both in general, in concept and in theory, and then also in practical application. And so overtime, i can get a lot further before i would resort to that old habit. So eventually, maybe about 10 years ago at this point, I made a conscious decision to just take punishment totally off the table. So aversives are no longer an option for my training. So I still have frustration attacks occasionally - I am human - but i do try to recognize them for what they are. They're just emotional expressions, they have nothing to do with training the dog and i don't have any expectation that they're going to change either of our behaviors for the better in the long run. But I still have a lot of situations where I still get stuck. And now there's a vacuum. I'll still get training to the same point -- a little further each time because I'm learning more -- but when I get stuck, there's a place where I would punish or I would use an aversive in some way, which may or may not solve the problem because we know that simply bringing in punishment is no guarantee of getting the results that we want. And so now I'll get about 80% of the way there -- I'll get about 80% of the behavior trained that I want -- and then I'm stuck. And simply not punishing doesn't give me any information about what i should do instead to continue making forward progress. I end up with a kind of vacuum. So sometimes I quit. I don't have all the answers. And I know that's disappointing to hear, because frankly it disappoints no one more than i disappoint myself when i don't know the answer to a problem, when i don't know the solution…. Well, maybe my father. He has pretty high standards so he might be more disappointed but I learned it from somewhere. And I'm willing to bet that you get frustrated sometimes too. And your stuckness may not manifest in quite the same way that mine does, maybe instead of frustration, anger, and potentially aggression you turn to other defensive strategies. Maybe like rationalization. Sometimes I find myself thinking thoughts like, “Maybe my dog just doesn't like to do obedience. Maybe my dog actually can't do this -- it's not possible. You know, maybe he has a health problem! Maybe it's his thyroid -- he could have a thyroid, he could have low thyroid! So if my training plan didn't pay out the way that I expected it to, clearly the problem is caused by his thyroid and no protocol would have worked. He needs medication! This dog needs pills to fix this problem, and it has to be just the right medication, and it might take weeks or even months, or years, to find what that medication could be and so none of this is actually a training problem, it's not in my control. It's not me, it's the dog, right?” Okay. Now, to be clear, I'm not trivializing endocrine disorders in any way. They're very real and certainly having a health problem does throw a wrench into the works and can add contingencies beyond those that we can realistically control within the context of a training session. So if you're worried or suspicious that your dog has a physical or medical problem, it's always a good idea to consult with your vet. Get that physical problem ruled out. Make sure your dog is healthy and sound. I know I certainly have no problem paying my vet $100 -- sometimes maybe more -- to be told I'm crazy and there's absolutely nothing wrong with my dog. But just to be clear again, every now and then I'm actually right. And so I have that long interval of random reinforcement effect that maintains my behavior on dog after dog, year after year. Anyways, okay. Let's assume that we've ruled out any physical issue. What can we do when we get stuck trying to train something? So it is a training problem, we're stuck with the training, we need to change something about the training to get past this obstacle. Ok. So here's a pretty common scenario. You're trying to train some behavior. Maybe you're following a training plan or a recipe that you found on the internet -- or you saw on youtube, or maybe you've just been to a seminar and this is now Monday morning and you're trying to apply the technique you learned at that seminar to your training in real life and now the powerpoint slides aren't there and the presenter isn't there, and so you're on your own. And so maybe you get through the first couple of steps --  you're shaping and things seem to be going ok. You think you're doing it right; you think you're doing it the same way as you learned in that seminar. And then all of a sudden you hit a plateau. And the dog keeps doing the same version of the behavior over and over again without progressing to the next step. So maybe you've made it through steps 1 and 2, and step 3 - instead of performing step 3 a couple of times and then moving on to step 4 your dog keeps doing step 3 over and over and over again. You can't see why you're not able to make the leap to that next step. This is a common problem that I run into with different behaviors with different dogs and certainly see it in my own students periodically. Maybe you're trying to teach your dog to retrieve an object and your shaping plan is I'm going to start by clicking when the dog looks at the object and then click him for sniffing it and then I'll click him for touching it with his nose or targeting it. And then the next thing I'll click is for him to open his mouth and bite the object… but instead of biting the object he just keeps touching it with his nose over and over again and he never opens his mouth. What do I do then? Another common place where we'll run into this situation would be adding duration or distance to an existing behavior. So you can get the dog to hold the sit for 8 seconds -- as soon as you reach for 9 seconds the behavior falls apart. Or you can get your dog to respond to a cue -- maybe he'll lay down if you give him the cue at 6 feet but one more step back and the behavior disappears or starts to degrade. And it's really frustrating - and then it's easy to think this isn't working, something's wrong with this technique, this method is ineffective, or we can continue to spiral down and think about what might be wrong with the dog, and then the world in general. And so obviously continuing to repeat the thing that's not working isn't the right choice; that brings to mind that quote that I know i've seen lots of different places… I often see it attributed to Einstein but I don't know if that's true or if it's just internet-true. So, to paraphrase, the idea that repeating the same thing over and over again and expecting different results is the definition of insanity. So, I may still be crazy, but this totally applies here. Even if we just look at the A-B-C operant contingency, repeating that same A-B-C … the same Antecedent or A, the same Behavior or B, and the same Consequence - “C” - then yes, we're probably going to continue to get the same result. So, we need to change something. I like thinking about it this way because it gives me three solid categories of things to look at -- and three is my favorite number, also it's a prime number so a lot of things to recommend it. Three categories is a very achievable way to start putting stuff in buckets and structure our thinking. So let's start with A -- antecedent. So the Antecedent, this is the cue. It's what's inducing or causing the behavior, what's associated with the behavior. And when we're thinking about this in terms of cues from us -- so I say sit and the dog sits --  well that's easy to recognize and understand. In active training, when we're learning, the antecedent really is much bigger than that. It's a bigger idea; it's more than just the cue you're deliberately giving, but it's that whole picture, all of the stimulus and all the pieces of the picture. So it's the whole set up that the dog is associating with a particular behavior. It's your body, your body position, where you're situated in space, your dog's position, any props that you might be using, if you're using a platform or a target or if you're using an object in the case of that retrieve. And it's the environment in general -- where the dog is, where you're training, all of the sounds, smells, feels, tastes maybe, all of those things are in that big stimulus picture and that whole picture functions as the cue when the dog is learning the behavior.   Melissa Breau: Thanks to Hannah for letting us share that with you -- I hope you'll consider subscribing to both our podcast and hers if you haven't already, in itunes or the podcast app of your choice. We'll be back next week, this time with Laura Waudby to talk Fenzi TEAM training and training service dogs. CREDITS: Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzi for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty-free by BenSound.com; the track featured here is called “Buddy.” Audio editing provided by Chris Lang and transcription written by CLK Transcription Services. Thanks again for tuning in -- and happy training!

SHOW NOTES:  Summary: Amanda Nelson has been traveling the country and teaching seminars for 20+ years teaching all levels of agility, with nearly all dog breeds. She focuses on teaching teamwork and how to create a strong connection between dog and handler. She works with all styles of handling, from running with your dog to distance handling, and tailors each training session, large or small, to the dog and handler. She's always looking to help bring out the best in each team. Amanda's handling system, “Cues for Q's” works off her three base cues: Upper Body Cues, Lower Body Cues, and Verbal Cues. This system was derived from the natural cues that most dogs read and pick up quickly. Amanda teaches handlers how to use all of these cues, together, to create a customized handling system that can be tailored to their unique dog. All of these techniques have resulted in Amanda earning numerous top agility titles with her own dogs. Links mentioned: www.fluidmotionagility.com Next Episode:  To be released 6/30/2017, featuring Sara Brueske. TRANSCRIPTION: Melissa Breau: This is Melissa Breau and you're listening to the Fenzi Dog Sports podcast brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy, an online school dedicated to providing high quality instruction for competitive dog sports using only the most current and progressive training methods. Today we'll be talking to Amanda Nelson. Amanda has been traveling the country and teaching seminars for 20 plus years teaching all levels of agility with nearly all dog breeds. She focuses on teaching teamwork and how to create a strong connection between the dog and the handler. She works with all styles of handling from running with your dog to distance handling and tailors each training session, large or small, to the dog and the handler. She's always looking to help bring out the best in each team. Amanda's handling system, Cues for Q's, works off her three base cues, upper body cues, lower body cues, and verbal cues. This system was derived from the natural cues that most dogs read and pick up quickly. Amanda teaches handlers how to use all of these cues together to create a customized handling system that can be tailored to their unique dog. All these techniques have resulted in Amanda earning numerous top agility titles with her own dogs. Hi, Amanda, welcome to the podcast. Amanda Nelson: Thank you for having me. This is great. Melissa Breau: I'm excited to chat. I'm not an agility person, so it'll be fun to learn a little bit more about the sport and hopefully learn some things that I didn't know before. Amanda Nelson: Yeah. Melissa Breau: So to start us out, do you want to just give us a little bit information about your dogs and what you're working on with them? Amanda Nelson: Yeah. So, in the house I actually have three dogs, but one of them belongs to my boyfriend, who's Trip. I obviously work with him in a lot of stuff, but Jimmy runs him and competes with him and all that, so he's in my house but he's technically not my dog. I have Nargles who is 8 years old, and everybody always asks me what her name is and it's from Harry Potter because I'm a huge nerd like that, so Nargles is 8, and this season I'm working towards doing conditioning with her and getting her prepped to go to the NADAC Championships in Ohio in October, so that's my focus with her this year. Then I'm also working towards earning her Platinum Speed title, which is a NADAC title that consists of...it's a certain number of runs that all have to be extremely fast. In NADAC there's DRI which is the dog's run index, and you earn so many DRI points kind of for how fast your dog goes and a Platinum Speed Star, an award, that focuses on how fast your dog is. So I'm working on running that with her this year as well as taking her to the NADAC Championships. And then Allons-y, again, I'm a bit of a nerd, so Allons-y is from Dr. Who, that's where her name comes from, I call her Ally for short. She's 4 years old this year, and her main goal and my main goal I guess with her is prepping her for the NADAC Championships, so that'll be her first year competing in that, but I want to take her...and I'm not focused on winning as much as I'm just really wanting to go and experience the atmosphere of it and have a good time. So, I'm doing a lot of prep work with her and bigger agility trials, and let her get used to atmosphere of all the dogs and all the people and all that sort of stuff, and then just working on her skills that she'll need for the championships themselves. Melissa Breau: Now, are they Border Collies? Are they Shelties? Amanda Nelson: Yes. All three are all Border Collies, yes. Melissa Breau: Okay, Border Collie household, for sure, huh? Amanda Nelson: That's right, yes. Melissa Breau: So how did you get started in dog sports? What was kind of the beginning for you? Amanda Nelson: I've actually been involved in dog stuff and dog sports since I was extremely young. I actually did obedience with my Cocker Spaniel when I was I think maybe like 4 or 5 years old. My mom was very much into obedience at that time and then she later was very much into agility, so I kind of grew up with it. So I started, like I said, with my Cocker in obedience and then agility kind of really started taking off and it was a lot of fun. So I had a corgi also, named Sunny, and I started with her in agility. We did USDA. I competed in the European Nationals many times with her. I think I started doing agility when I was like 6 or 7. I don't remember a lot of it, but there's pictures to prove it, so I can only remember bits and pieces every now and then. Melissa Breau: So you definitely grew up in this world, so to speak. Amanda Nelson: That is right. That is right. Melissa Breau: What kind of Cocker was it, an English Cocker, American Cocker? Amanda Nelson: American Cocker. Melissa Breau: Okay, okay. My grandmother breeds English Cockers so I've always kind of followed Cocker Spaniels. They have a special spot in my heart, so... Amanda Nelson: Oh, that's very cool, very cool. Melissa Breau: So, starting off in obedience a while ago, have you always been a positive trainer? If not, kind of what got you started down that path? Amanda Nelson: So at heart I know I've always been a positive trainer. I'm pretty sure I took some detours now and then, you know, as I learned. I try to surround myself with people who are also positive trainers, but I would have to say that I really...you know, because I started so young you kind of just do as everybody else is doing sort of thing, but I really wanted to start training my own dog. I had a Border Collie before Try and he was 10 and I did agility with her, but I don't remember really training her, if that make sense because I was young. Try was my first dog that I really...I had her from when she was a puppy and she was really, you know, I trained her I guess - as odd as that sounds. Honestly, my mom helped a lot with my dogs when I was younger, so Try I felt like was my first, I'm going to train her, train her, you know? And so, I just went in to want to read all these books and I had this cute little angel puppy and she was...she really, really loved clickers and shaping, and I really started getting into it because she loved it so much that she had thought that that was the coolest thing in the whole wide world, so then that really shoved me into the positive world and I just wanted to immerse myself in everything. And so, any book I could get my hands on, YouTube videos, anything I could do to learn more for her I guess, and really I wanted her to be so happy, and then that kind of...I started bringing it into agility, you know? She didn't really at that point in time, the way I was teaching the weave poles, like it didn't work for her, like she didn't get it, and I'm like, well, I don't understand why we're not getting it. So, I started doing all this shaping with the weave poles and then all this targeting and stuff like that and I'm like, oh, my gosh, she really likes this. So I started, you know, what else could I do in agility that I could shape, and that really opened a lot of doors and it also opened my eyes to...then also like a lot of the business work that I do, shaping is a huge part of it now because it really brings it into the dog's realm that they can...they're learning. You know, it's not just kind of a forced thing, and I don't say that in a negative way like I'm dragging the dogs out there forcing them, but more of the dogs are making their choice. I don't know if that makes any sense, but they're making that choice. They're being shaped and going, okay, I'm going to go out here and do this and my, you know, Amanda really likes that so I get a click, you know that sort of thing, and she really, really opened the door for that. She was the kind of dog that any sort of correction, even just me kind of going, oh, you know, and I can't help it sometimes, you know, something would happen and I go, oh. She would really take it to heart, so I really learned that she liked all that positive, and it really changed the way I looked at things and the way the dogs look at how I could teach something. Melissa Breau: As someone who hasn't really done much in the agility world, I definitely did a little bit of research before we had got on the call and it seemed like you can be pretty heavily in NADAC? Did I pronounce that right? Amanda Nelson: Yes, you did. Melissa Breau: So, would you mind talking a little bit about how that differs from some of the other agility organizations out there and maybe why it appeals to you so much? Amanda Nelson: So a lot of focus within NADAC is it's floating courses that test the dog's ability to collect and extend. So for example, it might be a really kind of open wide sequence that then comes into a really tight serpentine or pinwheel and it goes back into this really fast extended sequence. So NADAC really focuses on testing the dog's ability to really extend, really stride out, and then collect in for this nice tight sequence, and then really extend out again, and it tests the handler's ability to read those sequences, to read, okay, I need my dog to really extend and go fast through this loop here and then run in to collect, collect, collect, and do this really technical sequence here, and now I want them to extend again. So I like the variety as far as, you know, there's definitely dog tests I guess on the course as far as testing the dog's ability to do that kind of collection/extension, and then it tests the handler's ability to know the dog, know what the dog needs, and to read those sequences. NADAC also has some focus in distance handling and they have awards aimed at the distance handling, and that's something that I've done for a long time and I really...again with Try, she loved doing that distance work, so NADAC also was a big part of that and I could do a lot of that big distance stuff that she really liked and we liked doing it together as a team. So, I like the variety with NADAC, but I can go out and I can run right with my dog and be with her and do that sort of thing, and then the next course I look at and go, oh, I'm going to try a distance on this one and I can now work on distance skills all at the same trial, so I really like that variety within NADAC, but I can do different things with my dog whether it's distance or running with them and looking at the course for those collection/extension sequences and all that sort of fun stuff. Melissa Breau: Just having watched some distance handling type stuff, it's just so cool when you see somebody who, you know, they can send the dog out and they have good control and the dog's doing the things in the right order and you have that distance, it's just really an impressive skill to watch, it's really pretty to watch. And I know that one of your specialties at FDSA is teaching distance, so I wanted to ask a little bit about the kind of skills that a team needs, I guess partly as a team, right, but also just like what skills the dog needs before they can start to introduce distance into their training and before they can really...what they need to be successful with that, right? I would imagine it needs some special skills. Amanda Nelson: Yeah. So there's many different ways to teach distance and the way that I do it is my whole philosophy with distance handling is it has a very unique skill in the fact that you're asking the dog to move away from you and that can be moving out of their comfort zone, and so confidence plays a humungous part in everything I do with my dogs which kind of goes back into all that shaping and clicker training stuff that I do, is that I want my dogs to be super, super confident. I want them to be confident in my handling, confident in their skills, you know, they'd know how to do dog up, they'd know how to do a jump, all that sort of stuff. So when I start working with a new handler or a new dog or even someone who's been competing but they want to start introducing distance, the first thing that we sit down and do is like, okay, now let's see where is your dog at and what is their confidence level at. Are they okay 5 feet away, 10 feet away, you know, where's their limit? And if say their limit is at 10 feet and their handler really wants them to be 15 feet away, we're going to build the dog's confidence up at 10 feet. And my biggest thing is because of that confidence I want my dogs to trust my handling, I want them to be confident in my handling. So for example, if I tell my dogs “out” and I want them to...out means for them to move out away from me. So I tell them out, and so they understand that, and let's say I'm at a trial and I've forgotten all the core skills, so I've said out but in all reality I actually need them coming in towards me and I'm like, oh, no, I've given them the wrong cue. So my reaction and almost all reactions, the same reaction happens for every handler, is you know we're trying to save that cue so we're going, no, no, no, no, come in, come in, come in, you know, and we'll try to save it and get the dog in, and dogs are forgiving and dogs are awesome so they'll just turn on a dime and come in, but what happens with that is then the dogs don't trust their handling anymore. You know, we've said out, they're going out, but now in our heads we're telling ourselves, oh, I screwed up, I screwed up, I needed to say “come in”, but in the dog's head they're viewing it as, well, she said out, I went out, and now she's saying no, no, no, come in, and so that's what kind of chips away at that trust. So the first thing I really, really get into with all my students is if you've given a wrong cue sometimes you just have to suck it up and go and know that you just lost that run, but you're going to gain ten more down the road because if the dog doesn't have confidence in our cues then when we do need that distance and we tell our dog out I never want my dog to look back at me and go are you sure? Like I just want them, when I say out they go, yeah, all right, here we go, she means it, you know, and off we go. So that's a big thing. I do lots of ground work. I use road cones and teach my dogs a lot of confidence work around just the road cones because it's a nice, easy ground work exercise, and also teaches me, myself, and all my students, the timing that they need for all their cues. I teach them the speed the dogs are going to run, and it's all about equipment so that we're not also working toward dog knocks a bar and it's like oh, no, no, we have to fix that. We can just focus on getting our dogs to move out away from us and build that confidence. That's basically my training philosophy. Everything revolves around confidence. Melissa Breau: No, I mean that makes total sense because especially when, you know speed is also important and obviously agility, speed is important. Getting a dog to move away from you and not doubt. If they doubt you they're going to move slower than if they believe that they're doing the right thing. So even if the dog did come in right, like you might have shaved some seconds the wrong direction... Amanda Nelson: Exactly. Exactly. Melissa Breau:...your next run. So, even though I haven't done agility I do Tribal and that's also kind of a distance sport, and I know that for me when I was training distance, reward placement was just so important to kind of get that confidence and get the dog to understand, you know, to stay out there and not come back in for a treat, so I'd assume that was a big part for you for training agility too. Do you want to speak to that a little bit and talk about...I mean you can totally correct me if I'm wrong too, you know, I'm kind of guessing a little bit but... Amanda Nelson: No, no, reward placement is huge, huge, huge, which is why I love using toys when it comes to distance work and it's super easy, you'll be able to pass that toy out there, reward at a distance, you're either handler talking or get toy placed down or something like that. You have to understand they maybe aren't a big fan of toys, they only want food which Ally absolutely hates toys, she has zero interest in them, but she loves food so for her, you know, reward can be a little bit difficult with her because my other dogs, you know, they love going after the toys so it makes it “a little bit easier.” With Ally I use those Lotus balls, you know, and they're Velcro, kind of open, you can put food in, so I use those as some I would be able to...she does a really nice distance sequence. I can either have it placed out there for her out away from me or she can then open it up and get her treat, or a lot of times I just always carry one on me so if she does something really awesome out there at a distance, I can just toss that toy and reward right there. I also have students that the Lotus ball, it does not work for them. Either the handlers don't really like tossing it, maybe the dogs don't like it, that sort of thing, so even tossing food is good. I still vary my rewards because a lot of times, at least with something like distance they get so focused on all this distance and distance and distance, and so they reward  all this distance out-away, out-away, out-away, which is great but there are some courses where the dog has to come in, and so sometimes we get a little bit stuck on, oh, my gosh, I'm not going to let my dog out there and the dog gets used to always being say 10, 15 feet away from a handler, but then when we go out of sequence where they need to be say 5 feet within the handler the dogs don't want to come in. So, I still do kind of vary my rewards in that sometimes they will come in to me for a treat so that we're still kind of keeping a nice balance between my dog going really far out and staying out away from me or coming in, but I would say I definitely reward out-away a lot more than I do next to me because I want them again it's all about that confidence. I want my dogs to feel confident and high reinforcement way out there away from me as well. Melissa Breau: Yeah, some dogs really struggle with distance and building that confidence to go out there. I have seen that in my own sport, and I think it's kind of neat that reward placement really can make a huge difference in just communicating and building that confidence. So I wanted to ask if there was a particular aspect of distance training or really kind of anything in what you do that people usually struggle with, and if you kind of walk us through a little bit how you might problem solve that or some of the solutions you might try out. Just kind of give people a sense of what you teach and how you teach it. Is there anything that jumps out at you? Amanda Nelson: Yeah. So for me I would say across the board the biggest aspect that I see with all handlers whenever they want to get into distance is they want to stop all movement. They get nervous, especially if there's a Gamblers line on the ground or _____(20:01) or something like that, and they see that line and we just stop dead. So a lot of...the way I handle and the way I teach is all based on my body. So my lower body, my feet, are...that's what creates impulsion. So even, you know, like my videos I use it a lot because people say, “oh, you tell us when we have to keep moving, but your video doesn't, you know, you're not.” But I am. It just has to be, even if it's a small non-movement, even if it's just one step, one step, you're still creating movement, and dogs if they see us just kind of come to that brick wall, you know, when we stop right at that line, well, that's cueing a collection, you're telling them to stop. So what I try to tell my students all the time is if you want your dog's feet to move, your feet need to move. It doesn't mean you have to race them, it doesn't mean you have to run. Even the smallest step, that motion is going to help them continue to move and continue to push out there. So again, back to road cones, I do tons of work with footwork for the handlers teaching them, you know, I want you to practice this distance, but you need to always kind of be moving a little bit, you know, always be creating a little bit of motion in your lower body so your dog will continue to read that. And I do a lot of work laying lines on the ground and teaching handlers not to be scared of them, they don't have to stop right at them, and even staying off that line just by a foot gives you that little bit of cushion that you can still kind of push it on up and they get a little bit of movement, and I would say that to me is the biggest aspect because dogs naturally read our body language. You know, when you take a little 8-week-old puppy and you start to walk, they're going walk with you and you stop, they stop, you know, they naturally will read it, whereas we can teach distance with just a verbal cue and teach the dogs to get out there. I know many distance handlers that don't use a lot of body language, it's all verbal, and they do extremely well, but it's a taught skill, it's not natural to the dog, and I like to do as much natural stuff as I can for the dog so that it makes things easier, and I think for both of us as a team it just makes things easier. I don't have to teach something that is harder for both me and the dog to teach them, okay, I'm standing perfectly still, but I want you to drive out 30 feet, and it's harder on the dog and it goes again back to that confidence. It's harder to gain that confidence when the dog doesn't feel that level of support from their handler, so I would say that's the hardest thing that I've across with handlers and it's just a matter of just muscle memory. You know, teach them that you really...it's okay. You can keep moving at that speed, you'll be okay, sort of silly -- the line is not going to bite you, I swear. Melissa Breau: So I mentioned in the bio, and I mean you talked about it a little bit there in that last answer that you have your Cues for Q's handling system, and I want to make sure we talk about that a little bit more. You kind of mentioned the idea of adapting to what the dog does naturally and building on that, but can you explain the concept a little bit more and maybe touch on how the system can allow a team to really create their own unique handling system? Amanda Nelson: I kind of break things down into...I have lower body cues, upper body cues, and then my verbal cues. So my lower body cues, that should be basically my primary cue, that should be the first thing my dog sees. So I always want to point my feet or point my foot, you know, if you're running you're not going to be able to point both feet at the same time, but point this way where you want your dog to go, so that's going to be kind of their first cue. Your foot is pointing at that jump you want them to take. And then your upper body is going to define that cue. Do you want them really continue to push, you're going to have your arm out because you're really driving them down that line, or is your dog closer to your body because we're going to collect after that jump? So your upper body is kind of defining what your lower body is doing, and then your verbal cue should be kind of backing that whole thing up. So, the picture that I would want to see is if I have a student who, they need to do an out-tunnel is that their foot should be pulling at the tunnel, the hand should be pulling in at the tunnel, and then their verbal cue should be backing all that up by saying out or whatever cue that student uses. Where I go from there is that I don't feel that every dog can handle the same way. I've had multiple dogs and worked with multiple students' dogs and run student's dogs, that every dog is unique, every dog is different, and not everything is going to be exactly the same, you know? Like I have all Border Collies and every single one of them is different. I handle every single one of them different. They don't all just kind of come out of the cookie cutter that just because they're Border Collies this is the way I'm going to handle them, you know, they're all very, very different. So I can adapt this handling system into something that works for each dog. So for example, Trip, that my boyfriend runs, he is much more dependent on Jimmy's upper body, then he has his feet, and he was trained, you know, all my dogs go through the same foundation training as every other one before them and one after, and Trip and Ally, the two youngest, they were trained in exactly the same way, but for some reason Trip just, he responds better to upper body. So we just adapt the handling a little bit into, okay, instead of Jimmy's foot is now pointing where we want to go, we really focus on his upper body. His arm really needs to be pointing, this is the jump we're going to take, and then his feet then become more of a defining cue and not a verbal, if that makes sense. So it just kind of swaps the order. Whereas now Ally, Ally 100 percent reads off my lower body and then upper body is her defining cue, and what she doesn't like, and maybe it's just a phase she's going through, it's a teenager phase, she does not like to hear me talk. So verbals cues are just a no-go for her. Every time I say something to her like go or something like that, she barks or she gets a little angry or yeah, I feel like we're having a teenager stage, you know, don't tell me what to do. So, for her I use very little verbal cues and she reads my lower body like there's no tomorrow, you know, she'll pick up that foot cue and she just goes with it. So, we just mold and adapt things within that. I have my students kind of follow the base of it, you know, most dogs are going to read your foot and here's your arm and your verbal, but I let my students pick. They can use any verbal they want as long as it makes sense to them and it makes sense to the dog. They can say spaghetti for all I care as long as it works for them and we all understand it and that's awesome. I want them to be happy. My biggest thing and I guess I learned this years and years and years ago. I taught a seminar and I was working with this woman who just, you could tell she was struggling, like she was just having a hard time, she couldn't get her cues out right, and her handling was very stiff, and so I sat and talked to her, like what's going on? What's the issue? She's like, well, I've been taught that I need to handle like A, B or C and I need to do this and I'm like, well, but it's not working. You know, you're not happy, which in turn is now making your dog not happy. So I said what would you like to do? Let's talk about it. So she had shown me and said, okay, now this is how I wanted him. I'm like, well, let's do that. As long as it works for you and your dog let's do that. So my biggest thing is take kind of the baseline basically, you know, here's how most dogs respond to things, but then mold it into what you like and what works for you. You know, just like Jimmy and Trip, if I were to force them and say no, no, no, you must use your leg and that is what's going cue him, but if he doesn't like that, you know, if the dog doesn't respond and that doesn't work for him then it's just a constant battle. So my biggest thing when I'm teaching any seminar or anything online is my poor students have to hear me say and over and over again, do what works for you and your dog. Don't get caught up in this, that, or the other that you saw online or whatever. Take something, take an idea and go, okay, how can I make this work for me and my dog, how can I mold that into a training idea or how I handle that makes sense to me and my dog because a Bulldog is not going to remember the same as a Border Collie and they should be handled and trained in each of their own unique way basically. Melissa Breau: Right. So you kind of mentioned that each dog has their own unique handling system. Is it hard as a handler to have two dogs with a slightly different...I mean I know you mentioned your boyfriend's dog, but your down dogs I'd assume and also slightly different. Is it hard as a handler to remember which dog you're handling? Amanda Nelson: Extremely...extremely hard. So, yeah, I ran with Nargles and like I said, Ally, I'm assuming it's a phase, perhaps doesn't like my talking, but Nargles on the other hand loves it, she likes the verbal. So sometimes I'll work in the ring and I'll start talking to Ally and she starts barking... I'm like, oh, wrong dog. It is extremely hard and I know I forget and I'm actually working with a student online right now who has two dogs and they are like night and day and she is just having a hell of a time. I'm like, well, you know, when you figure it out you let me know because... Melissa Breau: I'd imagine that's the hardest part in some ways because like you said, part of it is muscle memory and you're trying to teach yourself to remember to do the same things and be consistent for your dog and when you have two different dogs who want to do things differently you have to learn two sets of muscle memory. Oh, goodness, it's funny. So, I want to end the episode the same way I kind of end most of the episodes which is asking you what's the dog-related accomplishment that you're proudest of? Amanda Nelson: Oh, my gosh. So the 2011 NADAC Championship I won and it is one of the proudest accomplishments I have. So I was competing against Super Stakes which is a distance class, and it's a very, very hard distance class. Most of the time the distance challenges, your dog is 60 feet, if not 80 feet away from you, extremely hard, and I was competing. It was in Springfield, Illinois and my friend Sunny and I were competing and I was running Try, and we were basically kind of going back and forth between first and second and her and I were probably both having absolutely the best weekend of our lives in dog agility terms, like she was on, I was on. Her dog, Vanessa, we train together all the time, so it was just awesome to go out, and I would  have this amazing run and then out comes Sunny and she would have this amazing run. It was absolutely fantastic. So we ran in the finals. I ran first and oh, my God, it was just a fantastic run, an amazing connection I had with Try. It was one of my best runs. To date it still was one of the best runs I ever had with her. Sunny and her dog, Vanessa, ran after me and they again...it was an amazing breathtaking run and we were 24 seconds apart and Sunny ended up winning. It was the most amazing weekend of my life as far as I just every...you know, four days is how long the championships are, and the level of connection that Try and I had that weekend was absolutely amazing, and to lose to my friend was fantastic. For her to have such a fantastic weekend as well was just awesome, and that second place ribbon, I love that second place ribbon because every time I look at it all I can think about is we were on fire that whole weekend. It was just such an amazing weekend and competing there with my friend, who was also having the best weekend of her life, it was just one of those things that is just amazing. So I have to say it's not a title or award or anything like that. It's my happiest second place ribbon I've ever gotten. Melissa Breau: That's awesome. Sometimes, you know, there's really something to be said for the relationships you form in the sports world, right, and you're cheering on your friends and  your teammates and your training buddies and it's not always just about you and your own dog, but that's awesome. Amanda Nelson: Yeah. Melissa Breau: Well, my favorite question of the whole series always, what is the best piece of training advice that you've ever heard? Amanda Nelson: So this is again from Sunny, she told me just to let it go. I feel like I should start singing Frozen or something. You know, things are going to happen, mistakes are going to happen, you know, what kind of mistake you had as a handler is a mistake you had as a trainer, you know, stuff is going to happen and just let it go because if you keep dwelling on it, you keep thinking about it, you keep beating yourself up over, oh, my gosh, I would've handled that differently or if my dog hadn't missed that contact, you know? Learn from it. Learn from it, move on, and just let it go and think about your next run.  That's the best training advice I've ever had. Melissa Breau: And finally, who is someone else in the dog world that you look up to? Amanda Nelson: I would say all of my students. Every time I teach a seminar and in all my classes, all of that, I learn so much from all my students. They inspire me every day to be a better handler, a better trainer. Even I'm in the middle of a Fenzi class I'm teaching right now, I am learning so much from them. The questions they ask, you know, they'll ask me a question like, oh, you know what, there's probably a different way to teach this and it brings about how we can approach things differently, how we can train things differently. I have to say working on all of those awesome people, they inspire me and I look up to every one of them, you know, how we can train different things, you know, all that sort of stuff I just...as corny as it sounds, it's probably all of my students. I love every single one of them and they do, they truly inspire me to be better, to just be better in general. Melissa Breau: That's not corny at all, it's sweet. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Amanda. It was great to get to chat and to learn a little bit more about what you do. And thanks to all of our listeners for tuning in. Amanda Nelson: Well, thank you so much. This was fantastic. Melissa Breau: Yeah, it's always good to learn a little bit more about some of the different sports out there, and agility is pretty mainstream but it's still new to me. And we'll be back next week, this time with Sara Brueske to talk training and competing for disc sports. If you haven't already, subscribe to our podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. CREDITS: Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzi for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty-free by BenSound.com; the track featured here is called “Buddy.” Audio editing provided by Chris Lang and transcription written by CLK Transcription Services. Thanks again for tuning in -- and happy training!  

SHOW NOTES:  Summary: At FDSA, Andrea Harrison teaches classes for the human half of the competitive team. She's an educator who is passionate about all species including dogs and humans. Having lived with dogs her whole life, Andrea was an early convert to positive training. She has taken this message to the media many times including appearances on many TV shows and news programs as well as in print and on the radio. She has explored the science of brain research and worked with people of all ages on being successful and reducing anxiety and stress using her training and counseling, personality typing, and her own experiences.   When it comes to dog sports her competitive addiction is agility. Andrea and her dogs have many titles between them with placements in regional and national competitions. Andrea has experienced animal wrangling for television and more recently has begun to explore scent work. Links mentioned: www.andrea-agilityaddict.blogspot.com/ (Andrea's site) Next Episode:  To be released 6/23/2017, featuring Amanda Nelson.  TRANSCRIPTION: Melissa Breau: This is Melissa Breau and you're listening to the Fenzi Dog Sports Podcast, brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy, an online school dedicated to providing high quality instruction for competitive dog sports using only the most current and progressive training methods. Today we'll be talking to Andrea Harrison. At FDSA Andrea teaches classes for the human half of the competitive team. She's an educator who is passionate about all species including dogs and humans. Having lived with dogs her whole life, Andrea was an early convert to positive training. She has taken this message to the media many times including appearances on many TV shows and news programs as well as in print and on the radio. She has explored the science of brain research and worked with people of all ages on being successful and reducing anxiety and stress using her training and counseling, personality typing, and her own experiences. When it comes to dog sports her competitive addiction is agility. Andrea and her dogs have many titles between them with placements in regional and national competitions. Andrea has experienced animal wrangling for television and more recently has begun to explore scent work. Hi, Andrea. Welcome to the podcast. Andrea Harrison: Thank you so much, Melissa. It's lovely to be here. Melissa Breau: I'm excited to chat. To start us out, do you want to just give us a little about your current fur crew? Andrea Harrison: Sure. We could take up the whole podcast talking about them so I won't do that, but we're currently living with too many dogs including my dad's dog, Franny, who is a lovely older cocker spaniel, and then we have Brody who is 17 almost and he's what I refer to as my heartbeat at my feet. He's my Shih Tzu mix and he really taught me that gurus even in dog sports don't necessarily have all the answers for every dog. Then we have Theo who is a 14-year-old Chihuahua, Sally who is an 11-year-old border collie mix who has really taught me to appreciate joy in everything. She was supposed to be palliative foster, she came to us when she was about six months old and was given less than six months to live, and she's about to turn eleven. So she's a good daily reminder. Yeah. She's a really good daily reminder that life is good and life is worth living. Then we have Sam who is my husband's golden retriever and I do very, very little with him. He just turned eight, and he came to us as a palliative foster as well. He was five months old with terminal kidney disease, so he's doing pretty well. We've got a crazy, crazy little terrier named Dora who is five years old, and then we have a toy American Eskimo, Yen, who just turned four, and she is certainly my daily reminder that every dog you have to do things your own way. So yeah, we have a bunch of different breeds and different types represented in the house right now, and as I say, too many dogs, but I also joke that on a per acre basis we have less dogs than most people do because we live on a fairly large farm in the middle of nowhere in Lake Ontario. So per acre we're well under any limit anybody could set. Melissa Breau: That certainly helps. I mean, having space is a big benefit when you have dogs. Andrea Harrison: Yes. For sure. And it's nice because I can train down at the front with them, a little agility field set up at the front, so I can take a pair down and work them down there, but every day a part of our routine is to go for a one to two, well, sometimes even three kilometers once the weather is nice, but we're out doing a good hike off-leash with all five of the dogs who are at a stage in their development where that's something they enjoy, right? So their fitness, their brain, their recalls, all of that stuff just gets worked on as part of life, you know? They hang out with me, they want to hang out with me. It makes when they come to town much easier, right, because they're constantly being reinforced for doing sort of the right thing to my husband's and my eyes. Melissa Breau: So which of the dogs are you currently competing with? Andrea Harrison: I don't actually. Since I've been down here we've been busy setting up the farm, but Sally, the border collie mix, finished doing a major film fairly recently and has been going out doing some publicity work around that. So her training stayed pretty current. Yeah. She was a lead role in a feature film that was about the character dog, Dinah, in the movie. So she is Dinah. So that's been kind of neat with being down to the…Toronto has an international film festival and we've been in the main theater for that. She was the first dog ever in that theater and stuff. So we had to make sure she was really, really perfect. They were, “A dog? You can't have a dog in the theater.” We're like, “Well, she's the star of the film.” And they were like, “Oh, yeah, okay, well, if she's the star of the film I guess it's okay.” So she's been doing stuff. Ad I'm hoping to get Dora, the two young dogs, Dora and Yen, going in competitive agility one of these days. But my problem is because everything is two or three hours of driving for me, and with my 17-year-old guy, I don't like to leave him very long, right? He's very much my heartbeat at my feet, he's happiest lying on my feet, and I hate to leave him and make him stress out when I'm gone. But unfortunately I don't think he'll be with us all that much longer. And then Dora and Yen can get their day of, their 15 minutes of fame, right, the Andy Warhol thing, they can get out there and get their fame and glory or embarrass me, whichever way they choose to go out. They do agility at home and they're great. They're ready to go. I just have to get off the farm. Melissa Breau: Fair enough. How long have you guys had the farm now? Andrea Harrison: Well, we've had the land for about ten years and we've been living here, we've been living here and building our house. We had a house just around the corner, we've been building our house for just about five years, we've been permanently at the farm for three. Melissa Breau: Wow. That's awesome. Andrea Harrison: Yeah. Yeah. It's been pretty neat. It added a dimension to my life that I really didn't know how much I was missing until I had it. Melissa Breau: So how did you originally get started with dog sports and the film stuff? I mean, where did all that start? Andrea Harrison: So when I was little I apparently was pretty opinionated, I hear this quite regularly, and I didn't like school and I didn't think I like learning. Turns out I love learning but I was just not being taught the stuff I liked to learn, right? So my dad and mom realized that if they could connect anything to animals I'd buy into it. So they taught me history at the dining room table by using the names of dogs and cats and horses, whatever kind of animal they could find that was connected to an event. I learned about the Civil War in the States because of the horse Traveller, for example, right? Ancient Greek history, they connected it to Bucephalus, Alexander the Great's horse. Rin Tin Tin for the war stuff, right? All of those kinds of things. And then they realized that if they brought home books that had animals in them I would read, and it turns out I'm a voracious reader, but they connected it through animals. And one of the kinds of books I started reading were books about people, there was a real trend for books about guide dogs, service dogs, seeing eye dogs and those kinds of things, and I read a book, and I was trying to think of the name of it. I think it's called like, Guided by the Light or something, or Candle in the Light or something, and I read the book and it just amazed me, the gorgeous German shepherd, and I had this clear picture in my head, it was an amazing dog. I looked at our Irish setter at the time and I said, “You and I are going to do stuff.” And I was 12 and there were no classes available for kids, kids just were not available to take classes. So I made my mom go to the dog sport classes and is at on the sidelines and I watched everything she did and I went home and I did it with our Irish setter in the backyard. By the end of our time doing that class our Irish setter would actually walk down a main street of Toronto off-leash with squirrels and other dogs going by me. She was your pretty typical Irish setter, she was a busy girl, and I was so proud of that. The lift that gave me as a very introverted, not super academic kind of person really built my confidence. So then just every dog we had from there, I put one leg of an obedience title on a golden retriever. We had foster Sheltie for about eight months, I did some show handling with her. So I just slowly got a little bit more into it. I never found my passion, right? Then one day, twenty years ago almost exactly I think, I saw agility, just in a field at a local university. Somebody set up a class and I literally stopped dead and went, “That's amazing.” And I started thinking about agility. I had two older big dogs at the time who couldn't do it, but I started learning about it and watching it and thinking about it. Then I was hooked. That was it. I mean, my blog is called Agility Addict. I was just absolutely, and I am just nuts about agility. Melissa Breau: What's the URL for your blog? Andrea Harrison: Andrea Agility Addict Blog Spot I think. I don't know. It comes up, as soon as you type any of that in it flies right up. Melissa Breau: I will look it up and I will include the link in the show notes. So what do, what you teach at FDSA is a little bit different, kind of, than what any of the other instructors do. You definitely have your own niche. I mean, how do you explain what it is you do at FDSA? How would you kind of summarize it  Andrea Harrison: Yeah. It's such a good question. I think what I'd say and what I do say all the time is that I focus on the handler side, right? Because it doesn't matter if you're an agility addict or you're into nose work or you're into obedience. I'm so grateful I'm learning so much about all these amazing different sports, Rally-FrEe, and all this stuff, it's just so super what I do because I get to learn and I love learning, right?  So I really focus on the handler side of it. My experiences through all the different things that I have done have reminded me all the time that my mental state, my beliefs, my hang-ups, right, really are going to affect what happens at the end of the leash. When I was filming Zoboomafoo and I needed 15 puppies to run across the floor towards me, if 13 of them ran towards me and two of them went another way it didn't help to get mad about it, right? I had to just think it through, figure it out, and redo it, right? Or when my little dog was on the stage at the Elgin Theater in Toronto, one of our big theaters doing a thing of Annie, I had to just to let it go. And it's hard for me to let it go. I'm your typical Fenzi instructor, you know, type A, cares a lot, wants everything to be right, right? We're a passionate group of people, right? I mean, that's wonderful, but it can be hard to remember that we can't control everything, right? No matter how much we want success we can't always make success in the moment that we want it. So as I was looking at what I could bring to the FDSA table it was like, there's a piece of stuff that I'm doing all the time, I'm getting asked to do it all the time, people are asking me questions in my face classes all the time about this, people respond to any blog I write about it. So I taught a little tiny course just for people locally online, and ended up telling Denise about it, and she was like, “That's really cool. Do you want to try bringing that here? I don't know if it'll work.” She was really honest, right? She's like, I don't know if it'll work. I'm not sure there's a thing. But that's where the first course, All in Your Head, came from, this tiny little genesis of a course I ran one summer through a Facebook group, and then it just developed from there. Students are amazing, they ask amazing questions, and they've given so much back to sort of my funny little niche program, like you said, but they've built it. I'm along for the ride. I've got tons of different resources I can plug into and pull out and experiences, but the students of FDSA have really driven what's happened in my little circle. Melissa Breau: So to give listeners kind of a sense of the type of issues that your classes can help with, do you mind just talking a little bit about some of the problems you've helped handlers address within the classes? Andrea Harrison: Yeah. Sure. I mean, it really ranges, right? So All in Your Head looks at sort of who you are, right, and how who you are is going to affect the training choices and things that you do, and starts to address the nerves side of it a little bit, because nerves are a big, big thing that come up. Disappointment, worry, anxiety. People don't want to let down their dog, right? They get frustrated by their dog, they aren't sure they're doing the right sport, they maybe aren't sure they have the right dog for the right sport, right? How can they make all of these things work, right? Like, I personally hate coming in second. For me that's a huge source of frustration, right? So if I was always coming in second I would want to work through a whole bunch of the stuff that I do in a class to make sure that I was dealing with being second. I'd rather be last than second, right? Give me first or don't place me at all. I mean, I'd like to cue, thank you very much, but in terms of placement type stuff, right? So the problems really range. I mean, I've had people look at relationship issues, grief. The two sort of really specialized courses, Infinite Possibilities and the new one I'm running now, Unleash Personal Potential, people pick their own thing, right? So the range of things we're seeing in there is amazing. Then of course with Handle This and No More Excuses people are largely looking at setting plans, setting goals, learning about goals, figuring out how to implement plans, right? We all make these great plans, I'm going to train every day, and then life gets in the way because life always gets in the way, right? It always does. So what do you do when life gets in the way? How can you not say, “Oh my God, I'm the worst trainer in the world ever,” and crawl under a rock and not train for three weeks? And there are times when a three week break is what you need, but sometimes you need to say, you know what? This was a throwaway day. It was okay, I didn't make my plan, it's okay, tomorrow is a new day and I can start over, right? So the range of problems is just, I mean, you know, you could almost open up a dictionary and look for any adjective and there it comes, right? Melissa Breau: So let's dig into a couple of those specifically just a little bit more, because I know there are a couple that we talked about a little bit before the podcast and whatnot as being particularly important. So I wanted to dig into this idea of kind of ring nerves and people experiencing nerves before a competition, things that really impact their handling. I was hoping you could talk a little more about that, maybe include a tip or two listeners can use when it comes to ring nerves and tackling it themselves. Andrea Harrison: Yes. For sure. One of the things I really encourage people to do is test those tools. So people go off to a trial and they're really, really, really nervous, but they don't know whether those nerves are physical, right, or in their head, or if they're affecting the dog at all, right? Because they've never really thought about it. All they know is that they're really, really, really nervous. They feel sick but they don't know is it in their tummy, is it in their head, is it their respiration, is it sweat glands, is it all of them, right? They haven't thought about it, they know it makes them feel sick so they push it aside, they don't work on it between trials, they go back to a trial and they're like, oh my God, I was nervous again. Well, of course you were nervous again. You didn't try working on anything, right? So like everything else it's almost like a training exercise. You have to think about what is making you nervous, how are you manifesting those nerves, and how can you break them down? It's just the same, right, just the same as positive dog training. Break it down into these tiny little pieces that you can then find a tool to address. So for example, if your mouth gets really, really dry and that distracts you and you start sort of chewing cud, as it were, as a cow, you're like, trying to get the water back in your mouth and it makes you nervous. Well, once you figure that out you take peppermints with you in the car, you suck on a peppermint before you go in the ring, and that's gone away. Right? And that's gone away so you can concentrate on the thing you need to concentrate on, right? You want to always build to those results slowly. When you look at the nerves, I can't say to you, here's my magic want, I'm going to wave it over you and all your nerves will be gone. But you get that sick, sick feeling in the pit of your stomach, why is that? Are you remembering to eat the day before a trial? Are you eating too much the day before a trial? Are you remembering to go to the bathroom? Because when you're nervous you have to go to the bathroom, so make sure you make time to go to the bathroom because then there's less to cramp in your tummy, right?  So step by step by step, you know, you make a plan, you look at the plan. What kind of music should you listen to on the way to the show? Should you listen to a podcast that's inspirational to you? Should you put together an inspirational play tack? Do you know exactly where the show is? If you're anxious and worried and always run late, for Lord's sake, please drive to the trail ahead of time or Google Map it really carefully and build yourself in 15 minutes extra, because being late to that trial is not going to help your nerves. You're going to be stressed. So where is that stress coming from? How are those nerves manifesting themselves, right? So the music that you listen to on the way, having the mint if your breath is dry, remembering to go to the bathroom, thinking about what I call Andrea's Rule of Five. So rule of five is really simple. Is it going to matter in five minutes? Five hours? Five days? Five years? Right? So if something is stressing you out you can actually stop, ground yourself which I'll get into in a sec, but ground yourself and think, rule of five. And the vast majority of the time, yeah, it might matter in five minutes because your run will just be over and it was not successful and you're embarrassed, maybe, or maybe it was great, and like, super. But very, very few of us are going to remember a run in even five months, let alone five years. I mean, you might remember in general, but your anxiety is not going to still be there, right? I mean, a great run you can remember. I can probably still tell you the details of some of Brody's agility runs or Sally's amazing work, right? Like, I can describe going from the A-frame around to the tunnel and picking him up and staying connected and it was beautiful. I can remember the errors of enthusiasm, right, like when he took an off-course tunnel, and he's never done that in his life, and I was like, oh my God, he took an off-course tunnel. That's amazing. That's so cool, and we celebrated. So just loved that he was that happy about it. But do I remember those very first, early trials where…do I remember the courses where I stood thinking I'm never going to get my agility dog to Canada? No. I don't really remember. I remember being sad that he was three seconds over the time and _____ (18:35), and that was kind of sucky, but it was okay, right? Like, now with all this perspective it's fine.  So you have to rehearse for success, let those nerves…think of something that gives you just a little bit less nerves and go and do it, right? Where you get that slight flutter and figure out how to tame the slight flutter. Don't expect to say, oh my God, I'm so nervous at a trial, I don't want to be nervous anymore. That won't work. You need to figure out, right, what tools are going to work for you, right? What makes you nervous, what tools will reduce that element of anxiety, and work on it one element at a time. I have students where I say to them, I don't care that you're not really ready to run, right, in a trial. If you were so nervous about it that's making you sick, find a match that's going to make you half sick. Go to a trial and know that you're not going to be successful. Go and do one lap of the ring. I don't care. Walk in there and do six things and leave if it's accessible in your venue. And practice getting over that nervousness so that you can give yourself and your dog the best things that you need to do to be successful. Set yourself up for success, if I had to reduce it to just a couple of words. Melissa Breau: Right. The same way you set your dog up for success. Andrea Harrison: Exactly. Exactly. We're as important part of the team, right? Without us there would be no dog sport. So we spend so much time, right, working on our dogs, and it's great that we do, and I love it too, but you have to remember to work on yourself too. You know? Unless you're by nature perfectly calm, perfectly extroverted, never have a thing to worry about at home which I still have yet to meet anybody who can say all of that, right? Melissa Breau: You and me both. I wanted to dive a little more into the motivation and planning aspect of things too. I know one of the lines in your class description for No More Excuses is it's for the students who have a library full of classes and haven't done them, or they have goals and aspirations that they simply aren't meeting. I think a lot of people who read that, that kind of strikes home, right? So I wanted to ask, what is so hard about just doing it? Andrea Harrison: Such a good question. And you think, like, we all blame ourselves when we can't just do it, right? And I think many of us hope that if we fill our libraries up enough that something is going to resonate, something is going to suddenly, magically make us do it. And you know, we all want that magic solution. I mean, self-help sections of libraries and book stores are full, like, shelves and shelves and shelves of books because we all want there to be a magic bullet answer, right? And there isn't. I mean, in a nutshell motivation often comes down to people being confused about whether it's outcome or process that they want, right? Whether it's learning or performance, right? Four different sort of models to look at motivation. Outcome goals are like, I want to be an Olympic gold medalist, and a process goal is I want to build the skills to be able to be an Olympic gold medalist. Many of us want to go straight to an outcome, goal, right? We want to be able to get the cue without sort of remembering that we have to build that process in. And once people understand that everything we do, we have to break it into a process, that can help them with their own motivation. So training, and this sounds awful, because different things bore different people, but there's always some element of training that bores most people, right? So I'll hear people say, “I hate working on stays, they're so boring.” Or, “I'd rather be playing on Facebook than training,” right? And that's okay, that's legitimate. But if you can start off even just with two or three minutes of whatever you don't like, particularly working on it, as you start to meet success it becomes more rewarding so you can do more and more. So if you can break down your process, again, similar principle to earlier, if you can break your process down into little tiny chunks and build on those little tiny chunks, as you attain success you're going to be moving closer to doing the outcome stuff, right? I mean, in true motivational speak the issues with motivation usually fall into either direction, can you get up off the couch and actually go and train or are you going to get up off the couch and head towards the ice cream in the freezer, right? Which direction are you going to go in? The intensity of what you do, so are you like, oh, yeah, this is great as long as I don't have to work too hard each step, right? It's good, I got to the gym, I chatted to the girl at the desk, I did my thing or went to dog school, and it was great, but I really didn't put any time into training, I was really busy chatting to my friends and watching other people train, right? That's the intensity piece of it. And then the final piece is persistence, which is do you go back, right? Will you go to training once and you do a great job or will you go to training five times and do as good a job as you can each of those times? So direction, intensity, and persistence are sort of the hallmarks of real motivational stuff, and they break down really nicely for dog training too, right? Like, where is your gap? So in No More Excuses we help people figure out which priority they want to work on of those three, and then how to do that. And then the last thing that you want to think about when you're doing motivation issues is are you in a learning phase or a performance phase of training, trial, and showing, whatever? If you're in a learning phase you might still be trialing, right? Because you learn when you trial. Every trial I've ever gone to you learn tons, right? But if you're in that learning phase you don't want to be having tons of outcome based goals or else what happens is you get frustrated and turned off and you stop. I think what happens to a lot of people is they don't understand the distinctions between outcome and process goals, learning and performance outcomes, right, the goal, and then that intensity, persistence, and direction piece, and if you can sort of marry all of those pieces and figure it out then you've got a real head up on making some motivation work for you, right? So it comes to down to sort of planning, right? Figure out what you need to do and then plan for it.   And remember that all those self-help books, right, that are in the library, all the gurus, all the people who say there's only one way to do things or this is the right way, they have a whole lot invested in making you buy in to what it is they are promoting. They believe it. I'm not saying it's charlatans at all, but they believe that their way is the right way, and if it doesn't work for you it tends to make you feel kind of rotten, right? You're thinking, so-and-so could do this and it's amazing, and my friend did it and it was amazing, and it doesn't really work for me. What's wrong with me? Right? And it's not that there's anything wrong with you, you just have a different approach to learning or the message or the method than the person does. So I think sometimes all the self-help can kind of be negative, you know, which is too bad.  Melissa Breau: Yeah. Yeah. Despite my comment about just doing it I do know that you're a big fan of self-care and gratitude, and I'm sure a lot of students in the alumni group on Facebook have seen your Joy Day Care posts. So I wanted to ask you a little bit about that and have you kind of tell us what's the story there, how did that get started? Andrea Harrison: Yeah. It's such a neat thing. So again, you know, my whole thing earlier my students are always teaching me, the first time we ran Infinite Possibilities back in August of 2013, I think, I had an amazing student, she's still a great student at FDSA, I know she listens to the podcast so she'll be like, “Hey, that's me she's talking about.” She said, “You know, this gratitude thing, I work on it all the time and it's really hard for me. I want to get better at being happy.” And there's tons of great research that says that gratitude is a really good path to being a happier person, right? How can I be happy? It's a big question I deal with in all of my life. So we started a gratitude challenge in the class, right, on the discussion thread there was a gratitude challenge that I posted, and then at the end of the class people said, “You can't stop this. This isn't right. You just can't stop this. We need your prompts. We need your help.” I said, “All right. Well, why don't we take it over to the alumni list and see if people like it?” And people really like it. It's funny, if I forget to post, if I forget it's the first day after class officially ends, any of those things for sure somebody will message me, and often it's somebody who has never worked with me. “Hey, don't you normally do Joy Day Care now?” So it started off, we called it just a gratitude challenge, and then it slowly worked towards being a Joy Day Care, the name just evolved over time. It was Joy Day Dare for a long time and then somebody, I mistyped, I think, and it came out as care, and I'm like, yeah, that's even more perfect for us, do you think? Because one of the things I love about it is how much everybody cares about everybody, right?  And it just helps people remember that happiness is a conscious choice, you know? I had somebody ask me just yesterday, what can I do to be a happier person? I said it sounds so trite, it sounds so dumb, I hate to even tell you this, but you really do have to choose happiness. You know? Life is tough, life is hard. There's a lot going on in life that gives us good cause to be angry or upset or frustrated or sad, and I mean, obviously if you're facing some really big thing you're going to need more than just to go, oh, today I'm going to be happy.   But a gratitude practice where you pick some time of the day to think about one thing you can be grateful for has a measureable impact on people who are suffering from depression, who have schizophrenia. There are tons and tons and tons of studies that show that a very, very short, ten second daily gratitude practice can make a difference to your state of happiness. Like, that's pretty powerful, right? And it's so easy for me to do, right? It's such an easy thing for me to remind people of sort of in the lull between classes. It's fun. I enjoy it. I actually quite miss it when it's done even though sometimes I have to get kind of creative with the prompts because we've done it now for a long time. So I'm like, have I done this in the last three sessions? I don't think so. Melissa Breau: Well, you could certainly…it certainly can't hurt to recycle some of those prompts and just think about…absolutely people can think about different things they're grateful for off the same prompt, and I mean, just… Andrea Harrison: Sure. Sure. Melissa Breau: Yeah. Yeah. No. That's great. Andrea Harrison: Yeah. So in fact I did a little workbook too for people because they wanted something in between classes. So there's a little workbook called Love the One You Are With, it's just a little workbook that has a bunch, I don't know, 140 other prompts and pretty pages people can fill in and stuff too. So people seem to be liking that as well. Melissa Breau: Where can they find that? Andrea Harrison: It's called Love the One You Are With, and there's a Facebook page for it. Melissa Breau: Cool. Excellent  Andrea Harrison: Yeah. Very cool. Melissa Breau: So I wanted to kind of end out the podcast, even though we spend a lot of time talking about the handler half of the team, the same way I do for everybody else, because I thought it'd be interesting to talk…I know if the beginning we talked a little bit about you and your dogs, and I wanted to make sure we kind of close it out that way too and talk a little bit about the dogs again. So what is the dog-related accomplishment that you are proudest of? Andrea Harrison: You know, it's interesting, and I wrack my brain because obviously if you listen to the podcast you know this question is going to be coming up. I mean, I have lots of things, I have been lucky enough, fortunate enough to do some really, really cool things with my dogs, right? They're superstars and rock stars all in their own right. But I think if I had to pick the one thing I would have to say it's probably the hundreds of foster dogs that my husband and I have rehabbed, worked with, trained. We've had many, many foster dogs that have been with us more than six months and as long as three years before they've been able to go into their own homes, and I think if I had to pick one thing it's probably doing that, right? Giving back in such a sort of hands on way. Yeah. It's been pretty amazing. We've met some really amazing dogs and by being able to be strong enough to give them up, and sometimes it's really hard to do that, you know, it lets us take in the next one. So it's been pretty precious. Melissa Breau: Right. And that's always the hardest part, right, in some ways, of fostering or helping with that process. Andrea Harrison: Oh, I mean, it's grief. Yeah. It's absolutely grief in its own way. You miss them. You give a little piece of your heart. I had one of my vet tech friends say to me, “Andrea, you've got the biggest chameleon heart of anybody I know.” She calls me Lizard Heart now. I said, “What do you mean, Lizard Heart?” She goes, “Well, if you cut off a little piece of a chameleon's heart apparently it grows back.” I don't know how they even do that, I didn't ask, I didn't check it or anything. But she calls me Lizard Heart because she says, “You've given so much of your heart to other animals, your heart is so patchy and big, right, from all the repairs.” So I'm like, that's so sweet. Right? Yeah. So I would say that's probably my proudest accomplishment. Melissa Breau: And then what is the best piece of training advice, and for you you can do handler or the dog, that you've ever heard? Andrea Harrison: So there's two, because, you know, why would any of us do what you ask and give one? Melissa Breau: That's perfectly okay. Andrea Harrison: I think the one that really made me think the most and really work on understanding what it meant and figuring out how to apply it to handler side stuff and dog side stuff, actually, is somebody said to me a long, long time ago when they were mad at me in my counseling gig that's outside of dogs, they said to me, “Andrea, you have to understand, it's really not personal.” I was like, “But you're mad at me.” And they're like, “I'm just mad. I'm not mad at you. It's not personal.” And I thought, it's not personal. It really isn't, is it? And so much of what we get ourselves so worked up about, right, is because we take things personally that aren't meant personally. So if your dog has a lousy day and blows you off, your dog poops in the ring, your dog isn't do that to destruct you. Your dog is being what my husband calls his dog self, right? We talk about that all the time here at the farm. Oh, he's just being his doggy self. They come in and they've rolled in something disgusting, and you know, oh my God, I have to go out for dinner in half an hour and I don't have time to clean you. My stress level goes through the roof and Tom's like, “They're being their doggy self.” And I'm like, yeah it's not personal. We bathe the dog and we're ten minutes late and we're good, right? So it's not personal applies, like when that group of women, often, sadly, are standing at the side of the ring watching your run and you think, oh my God, they're watching me, they're judging me, the pressure is great, and then you leave the ring and you think, wait a minute, I was the first, second, or third dog in the ring, and they were actually just watching to see how the judge works, or where the judge stands, or what pattern the judge is looking for, whatever, right? So it's often, even though we take it very personally it's not personal there. Even when somebody is making a comment to you, right? They're saying, “Oh, well, if it had been me I would have done it this way.” So what if they would have done it that way? It's about them, that's not about you. It's not personal. So I think it's not personal is a really big one that has worked for me to really try to remember both in my dog sports and my just surviving life piece, right? Whatever the issue is it's much more often about the person who is doing the whatever that's causing you stress or distress, and it's often just the dogs being their doggy self. So that's the first piece of advice I think to get into. Then the other one came a long, long time ago, and this is sort of for handlers to remember with their dog, and that's just to stop nagging. I guess that actually could be seen as a life skill too. I work pretty hard not to nag my husband too, but the sort of persistent drip, drip, drip, drip, drip, it can be really irritating, right? Like, if you're getting nagged it's irritating, and if you're nagging your dog it's irritating too. You're much better off to break off if things aren't going right, break off and do something, and have fun with it, and then come back to it, right? Rather than nag, nag, nag, nag, nagging. If I have a dog that I'm trying to get to sit perfectly on its flat form, and you have a dog that you're trying to get to sit perfectly on its platform, and I drill, drill, drill, drill, drill that skill for my dog, and you try it three times and say, oh, you know what? You need a break, you need to let off some of that stream, I'm going to go play with you for a minute and come back to it. My guess is a whole lot of the time you're going to end up with a much nicer sit that's much more solid in more situations than I will for nagging. Right?  And that came to me from my horse sport stuff early on in life where I was riding a rotten little pony and I had a crop, somebody hands me a crop and I was doing the thwack, thwack, thwack on the shoulder but never hurt enough to make a difference, and like, my coach, Martha Griggs, said to me, “Andrea, if you're going to use that crop take it and use it once and be done with it. Stop nagging that poor pony.” And I thought, oh, but I don't want to hit the pony, right? Who wanted to hit a pony? Even back then I was sort of like, there's got to be a nice way to do it. But I realized that if I could figure out a way to be clear and consistent with my message and stop the drip, drip, drip, drip, dripping nagging of it it was going to work much better, and the pony and I went on to do pretty well in the show we were headed for. So you know, that worked in that moment and that in itself of course became reinforcement.   So it's something I really look for in my face time students, right? Are you nagging the dog? Because if you're nagging the dog if I can help you stop nagging the dog you're going to end up with much more success. Yeah. So I'm grateful to the horse instructor for pointing that out so many years ago. Melissa Breau: I mean, sometimes it's really interesting the lessons that carry over from other sports and other things in our lives into the dog world, and how much carryover they really have. Andrea Harrison: Well, it's absolutely right. One of the things that people always say, how do you know…what made you come up with the fact that getting a good night's sleep before a show is important? And I'm like, because in my work as an educator and as a counselor I've discovered that if I'm doing a session with somebody and they had a good night's sleep the night before we're going to get a lot farther than if they've had an awful night's sleep. Doing sort of a counseling session, if I'm talking to someone and they've had a terrible night's sleep I'll be like, you know what? Today is not a good day to dig into the heavy stuff. Let's find something light and fluffy to deal with because we're not going to get nearly as far, right? Here, let's talk about how to sleep better, you go home and sleep better, and next week make sure you do those strategies, and then we can get into the heavy stuff. So yeah, absolutely. What you learn in one place has tons and tons of crossover. And again, I think we forget that, right? We get so hung up on there's got to be the perfect way to do it that we forget to pull these different skill sets that we have from different places. In the All in Your Head course somebody in the first or second session said to me, “Oh my God, I did this at work, the Meyer Briggs temperament inventory.” He said, “I did this at work. It never occurred to me to think about how what I know about myself at work might influence myself as a dog trainer. It really does make a difference.” I was like, yeah, of course it does. But so many people, we compartmentalize, right? It's part of being human, we keep things in their little compartments and we forget to open the door between them. Melissa Breau: So for our last important question, so someone else in the dog world that you look up to, who would you recommend? Andrea Harrison: There are so many ways to answer this question. I mean, I've said it before in this already, the FDSA instructors are just amazing people and so many of the people, like I can throw out a ton of big name agility trainers, American, Canadian, European, but I think if I was going to say who I look up to regularly, and this sounds kind of, I don't know what the word is I'm looking for so I'll just say it, it has to be the people who struggle with their dog, right? They're the inspiration for me. They've got this dog that maybe isn't the perfect match for them, they're in a sport that isn't maybe the perfect match for them, and they persist. They want to figure it out, right? And that might mean changing dog sports, that might mean retiring a dog, that might mean taking a long break. There's so many different things it can mean, but they're the people that I really look up to because…and lots of the instructors, right, have had their own challenges too. The very fact that they come back to it, right, the resilience of the human, right? So I guess I would have to say that it's the resilience that really makes me feel inspired to keep going, right? That if I were looking for a reason to get up in the morning and to log on to see what's going on with my students, the people who are working with the deaf dog or the blind dog or the dog that, as somebody said, I would divorce if I could, but I can't divorce him because he's living with me now so I'm going to figure out how to do that, you know? It's all those people that really create this inspiration, and I'm sure you would have loved it if I'd grabbed one name, but really when I thought about the question that's really what gives me my get up and go, is those people. Melissa Breau: Hey, I'll take it. It's a different answer so it works for me. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Andrea. It was so much fun to chat. Andrea Harrison: Well, such a pleasure, honestly. Just delightful. You do a great job with it. Melissa Breau: Well, thank you. Thanks. And thanks to all of our listeners for tuning in. We'll be back next week, this time with Amanda Nelson to talk agility, including tailoring your handling style to your specific team. If you haven't already, subscribe to our podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. And one extra request this week, guys. If you could leave a review on iTunes or mention the podcast to a training buddy we would greatly appreciate it. CREDITS: Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzi for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty-free by BenSound.com; the track featured here is called “Buddy.” Audio editing provided by Chris Lang and transcription written by CLK Transcription Services. Thanks again for tuning in -- and happy training!

SHOW NOTES:  Summary: Julie Flanery has been working professionally with dogs and their handlers since 1993. She focuses on the needs of the dog and helping people form a strong relationship through clear communication and positive reinforcement. She has placed Obedience, Freestyle, Rally-Obedience, Rally-FrEe, and Agility titles on her dogs. She began competing in Musical Freestyle in 1999 and was the first to both title and earn a Heelwork to Music Championship on the West Coast. In 2001 she was named Trainer of the Year by the World Canine Freestyle Organization and has been a competition freestyle judge since 2003. Five years ago Julie developed the sport of Rally-FrEe to help freestylers increase the quality and precision of their performances. It has since become a standalone sport enjoyed by dog sports enthusiasts all over the world. Julie has been a workshop and seminar presenter both nationally and internationally. She currently trains and competes with her Tibetan Terrier in both Musical Freestyle and Rally-FrEe. Links mentioned: www.wonderdogsonline.com VIDEO: Examples from Imitation and Mimicry VIDEO: More examples from Imitation and Mimicry VIDEO: Rally FrEe Compilation / Class Trailer Next Episode:  To be released 6/2/2017, featuring Mariah Hinds.  TRANSCRIPTION:   Melissa Breau: This is Melissa Breau and you're listening to the Fenzi Dog Sports podcast, brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy, an online school dedicated to providing high quality instruction for competitive dog sports using only the most current and progressive training methods. Today we'll be talking to Julie Flanery. Julie has been working professionally with dogs and their handlers since 1993. She focuses on the needs of the dog and helping people form a strong relationship through clear communication and positive reinforcement. She has placed Obedience, Freestyle, Rally-Obedience, Rally-FrEe, and Agility titles on her dogs. She began competing in Musical Freestyle in 1999 and was the first to both title and earn a Heelwork to Music Championship on the West Coast. In 2001 she was named Trainer of the Year by the World Canine Freestyle Organization and has been a competition freestyle judge since 2003. Five years ago Julie developed the sport of Rally-FrEe to help freestylers increase the quality and precision of their performances. It has since become a standalone sport enjoyed by dog sports enthusiasts all over the world. Julie has been a workshop and seminar presenter both nationally and internationally. She currently trains and competes with her Tibetan Terrier in both Musical Freestyle and Rally-FrEe. Hi, Julie. Welcome to the podcast. Julie Flanery: Hey, Melissa, thanks for having me. Melissa Breau: So excited to have you on. This is going to be a lot of fun. Julie Flanery: Yeah, I'm looking forward to it. Melissa Breau: So to start us out, do you want to just tell us a little bit about the dog or dogs you have now and what you're working on? Julie Flanery: Yeah. I'm actually down to one dog now. I've lost three dogs in the last couple of years, which has been a little bit hard, but all of them were about 15 years old so I'm down to just Kashi, and Kashi is my 6-year-old Tibetan Terrier. She is a great little worker, in spite of some severe food allergies she's had since she was a puppy and that kind of limits our training with food rewards a little bit, so we've really had to work hard to come up with some ways that she really enjoys her training and make every reward count. We do show, as you said, in Freestyle and Rally-FrEe, and we just showed our intermediate Heelwork routine last weekend and started work on putting together our new routine. It's a kind of a Las Vegas show-style illusionist routine, I'm kind of excited about it and Kashi plays my disappearing assistant and we just moved into... Melissa Breau: Sounds so fun. Julie Flanery: Yeah, it is, it is. I have the ideas kind of swirling around in my brain, nothing complete yet, but that's kind of where you start with freestyle is with an idea or some type of inspiration and you go from there. And then we also just moved into the Elite Division for Rally-FrEe after completing our Grand Championship last year. That was really exciting for me as well. Melissa Breau: That's awesome. Julie Flanery: Yeah. Melissa Breau:So I want to start kind of at the beginning. You know, I talked a lot about your history there and you've accomplished a lot, but how did you originally get into dog sports? Julie Flanery: That was a long time ago. If I'm really honest I would say it was about 25 years ago when I took my 5-month-old Border Collie to a pet class. I was a new pet dog owner, and I watched one of the instructors do a demo of how many tricks his 5-month-old Border Collie could do in a minute and I thought, wow, I want to do that with my dog. I mean I'm just a pet person here, but I saw that and I was so impressed and so intrigued at what training could do, that and having a great dog to start with got me really immersed into training, and my competitive nature kind of kicked in a little bit. And I didn't really start competing until probably a couple years in agility to start and then obedience, and both of those were rather short-lived due to my discovery of freestyle I'd say probably in the...oh, I don't know, mid-90s at an APDT conference after seeing a freestyle demo and again I thought, wow, I want to do that with my dog. And unfortunately, there was no freestyle available in the Pacific Northwest, or much really anywhere in the country at that time. It was just a fairly new sport then and there wasn't really the luxury of any online training back then, so if I wanted to do this I was going to have to learn this on my own, and because I didn't really want to do it alone I dragged a few of my students along with me, and today we have one of the largest freestyle clubs in the country and those first few students are still competing, are active members in the club today. So, that's kind of how I got started competing in general, first with obedience and agility and then really became enamored with freestyle, but I competed off and on in a variety of dog sports, as you said, so I think I have a little bit of a competitive nature at heart. Melissa Breau: Well, that's awesome. It's kind of cool that you managed to really...I guess you could almost start a movement in that area, right, like for the sport. Julie Flanery: I don't want to take that kind of credit, but I knew I wanted to do it, and I knew it was not going to be something I could probably do alone. Freestyle's not an easy sport to stick with and it really takes some perseverance to stay involved in it, and I just felt very passionate about it, and so anytime anybody would listen or anytime anybody wanted me to give a workshop on it I would go and I would oftentimes...early on with the club I would give free workshops just to get people interested and involved in it so that we could have a group that could put on competitions here. Melissa Breau: Well, I wanted to make sure that I told you, you know, I watched some of the videos of you and I think most of them actually you're working with Kashi on the FDSA website. Consistently she looks so happy to be working with you, and even the other dogs that you have in the videos, they all look so thrilled to be there and to be performing. So I really was curious what it is, or what you attribute it to in terms of how you train or the sport specifically that leads to that. Julie Flanery: Oh, I love...I love that that is what you noticed. So to me there really isn't much point in training unless you have a willing and happy partner, and in freestyle it's a sport where emotion shows through and emotion is something that you want to convey, and for most of us we want our dogs to be happy out there working, and as I said earlier, it's a very difficult sport and if you don't have a dog that's really enjoying it, it can be very, very difficult to progress in the sport. For me really, the shift to really wanting a happy, joyful dog out there came about when I started using operant conditioning and shaping specifically with al clicker. I'd always used treats in my training. I primarily have always been a positive reinforcement trainer early on in obedience. I did learn how to use a choke chain and I was quite skilled at that, but I did train with rewards and mostly the reward training, but when I started using a clicker and shaping it became a much more reciprocal learning process where both the dog and the handler have a vested interest in listening to each other and that that outcome includes a sense of enjoyment and a desire to keep going, and I think for me having that experience of learning about shaping and clicker training and really  listening to the other dogs was very impactful for me and impactful about how I structured my sessions and what I wanted out of those sessions in terms of emotional fulfillment for both me and the dog and I think the most effective way to build that is through positive reinforcement training and really important is clear communication, with that communication being a two-way street. For years training has always been about the dog listening to the handler and I think it's just as important, even more so, that the handler learn to listen to the dog. So, I think just making sure you're paying attention to how the dog is feeling and responding in a session makes a huge difference in the outcome of that session and whether there is mutual enjoyment in that session. So, I think it's a combination of both the sport that I chose and the techniques and methods that I choose to apply in my training. Melissa Breau: That's really interesting. I mean I'd imagine in something that's typically set to music where really part of it is a performance aspect, like in obedience precision is precision and it's possible to a fairly precise performance, even if you're not super positive in your training, and I imagine it's much, much more difficult in a sport where the goal is really to have it look joyful and to have it look really pretty. Julie Flanery: Yeah, it certainly can be, and that's not to say that there aren't freestylers that use or have used aversive techniques, and to be quite honest you can't always tell, the dog's being just as happy out there. But for me personally, I really enjoy the fact that I know that what I see in my training is what I see in the ring, and that's all about that enjoyment of working together and bringing that joy to the audience as well because you're right, freestyle is an audience participation sport, so to speak. It's a sport that they're not only for competition but for entertainment as well. Melissa Breau: You kind of mentioned shaping and luring in there, but you wrapped up a class on Imitation and Mimicry and I have to say that's like such a fascinating concept. If you could start by just kind of explaining what that is for the listeners in case they're not aware of it, and just kind of sharing how you got into that, that would be great.  Julie Flanery: Yeah. No, I'd love to. Imitation and Mimicry is a form of social learning or learning through observation, and we've long known it to be effective in human learning, but it wasn't until probably the last 10 years or so that we've really seen any studies on its use in dog training. I first heard about it at a ClickerExpo, a talk that Ken Ramirez gave on concept training in dogs, and then further researched Dr. Claudia Fugazza's study that she did, and in 2006 she created a protocol that showed that dogs can learn these new skills and behaviors by mimicking their owners and it's her protocol that we use in class. Also what's fascinating is that Ken Ramirez has developed a protocol for a dog-dog imitation and mimicry, and some of the videos I've seen on that are just truly, truly amazing. So, things that we didn't think were possible now we know are and we're actually able to bring to more people now. The class was really quite inspirational for me because my experience of course had been limited with it in working with it with my own dog and then some of my live classes, my students there in my live classes, we work through it, and when Denise asked me to do a class on it I was really excited, but I wasn't quite sure what to expect and I have to say my students in that class are just amazing. They have really shown me what this protocol can do and how truly capable our dogs are of learning some of these concepts, so it's been a really exciting class for me. And matter of fact, I'm going to go ahead and put it back on...I think it is already...Terry's added it to the schedule for August, and so I'm really excited about doing it all over again. Melissa Breau: It's so cool to watch. Julie Flanery: Yeah. I think you've seen some of the videos that were on the alumni page, and they've really drawn a really great response, so it is very exciting for me and I hope for the students too that are taking the class. Melissa Breau: Other than just being an additional tool in the toolbox, and of course we all want as many of those as possible, right, what are some advantages to using that as a technique? Julie Flanery: Well, first off, mimicry is not necessarily suited to all behavior training. It's really best used for broad or more general behaviors, behaviors that require a high degree of accuracy or precision may be better learned through shaping or some other method or reward, however mimicry can be quite useful and at least one study has shown that behaviors learned through mimicry were learned as quickly as they were through shaping which really surprised me. I was quite surprised by that. Some service dog work for example, retrieving items, turning on lights, opening drawers or cabinets, not only can the dog learn these skills very quickly through mimicry, but once the mimic cue is in place, even inexperienced handlers can teach the dog these behaviors with very little training themselves, so it allows inexperienced handlers to train these more complex behaviors much more quickly which I think is really quite cool. It can also give the dog the big picture, so to speak. So in most training the dog has no idea of what the end result is, only we know what that looks like and the dog needs to muddle along, and he may not even know that when we reach the end result that is the end result. So, mimicry allows the dog to know what he's working toward and may even help him to better able to guess steps toward that end result, so it could very easily shorten that training process, at least the big picture, at least the broad strokes of that behavior. I think too it forces us to look at the dog's perspective in how or what we are communicating. In mimicry the only information you're giving the dog is your demonstration of the behavior. If your demonstration doesn't make sense to the dog, he won't possibly be able to perform it. It's really no different than other forms of training. If we aren't giving the dog the information he needs then it's not that he's unwilling to do the behavior, it's that he's unable, and unfortunately all too often errors are blamed on the dog rather than our inability to communicate, so to me this really gives us that perspective from the dog's viewpoint. What am I communicating to the dog, and how can I make this more clear, and we learn that through our demonstrations in the mimic protocol and how we actually demonstrate these behaviors. I think it's been very fun to see some of the students realize, oh, wow, that demonstration couldn't possibly make sense to my dog, how could he possibly do that? So, I think that's a really interesting thing is that we gain a new perspective on the dog. I've also had several students tell me their dogs are more attentive to them, they appear more relaxed in training. The process itself, the protocol itself, is very predictable and so it sets the dog up to succeed. For me though I think it really comes down to a connection. I think I have a pretty good relationship with my dog, but the emotion I felt...the first time she truly mimicked the behavior that I had demonstrated was unlike anything I had ever felt before. Not only did I feel a different kind of connection with her, but I think she felt a different connection with me as well, or at least I'd like to believe that was what I was seeing. So, it's an amazing feeling that first time your dog mimics something that all you've done is demonstrated for them and then asked them to repeat it and like I said, for me it comes down to a different...maybe a deeper connection with my dog. Melissa Breau: Do you remember what that first behavior was for you? Julie Flanery: I do. It was a spin. Melissa Breau: That's awesome. Julie Flanery: It was amazing. I taught her...went through the protocol of teaching her the mimic cue, and then I did my spin and I told her “do it” and she glanced at me for a second and she did it and I was like, oh, my God. It was really quite exciting for her. I get a little teary thinking of it right now. I know that sounds kind of weird, but it really is such an amazing feeling. It's a different feeling than what I felt...I can't say that. You know it's funny. The first time I used shaping and had my dog offer something that I did not command him to do because that's the term we used then, “give your dog a command,” the first time my dog offered something just because I had clicked and rewarded it, that to me was almost the same kind of feeling, it showed me the power that that technique and method had and I felt that same way with the mimicry too. It really showed me the power this method could have. Melissa Breau: I just think it's so interesting, the different ways our dogs are really capable of learning if we take the time to teach them how.  Julie Flanery: It is. It's amazing. It's really amazing. It reminds me, Ken Ramirez once said in a lecture and it's actually one of my favorite mantras, I keep it on my monitor. He says, “We limit ourselves and our animals by assuming things aren't possible” and that is so true I think. It's so important that we keep an open mind to some of these techniques and methods because we don't know what we don't know, and it's up to us to explore these techniques that can really bring out the best in our dogs and our relationships with our dogs. Melissa Breau: Now this session you're offering Rally-FrEe class, right? Julie Flanery: Yes. Melissa Breau: So, I want to make sure we talk a little bit about that too. In the class description you explain it as a combination of Rally and Freestyle. My understanding is you're the founder of Rally-FrEe so I'd love to hear what led you to develop the program and why those two sports? Why did you choose to combine them? Julie Flanery: Right. Originally I wanted to develop a structured way for freestyle teams to focus on their foundation skills and build their heel work and transition skills primarily to better their performances and really to increase their longevity in the sport, and then ultimately improve the quality of the sport. Since I've been involved in freestyle I compete, I'm a judge, I've been teaching it for almost 20 years now, and I was seeing a lot of attrition in the sport. Freestyle is not easy. I would say it's probably one of the more difficult sports out there. There's a lot more involved in freestyle than just training behaviors. Teams would get through the novice level and then they would really struggle in the intermediate class and they'd end up leaving the sport. In freestyle you can train any behavior you want. You have a lot of options and so you do, you train anything you want and mostly that's the really fun, cool, complex sexy tricks, and generally they didn't train any foundation in to support the complexity of the tricks they were training. So like any sport, freestyle has a specific set of foundation skills, but these skills, these foundation skills, I know when I first started in freestyle nobody told me what they were, I'm not sure anybody knew what they were, it was such a new sport back then, and even if we knew what they were freestylers were so spread out around the country and there was no real instruction available to it, the information just wasn't accessible, and the information wasn't really given the importance and value I think. You know, having foundation skills didn't seem as important because of the perception that freestyle was free and you could do anything you wanted. And I remember...I remember one of the reasons I wanted to do freestyle was I didn't want to teach my dog to heel anymore, you know, heeling was, oh, my God, I don't want to teach my dog to heel, it's so awful. Of course heeling was taught quite a bit differently than we do now, but I didn't really understand at that time how important heel work and positions really are for freestyle. Melissa Breau: When you say foundation behaviors, is that what you're referring to is kind of the positions and... Julie Flanery: Yeah, the positions, the transitions, yeah. Those are considered foundation skills, and then there are certain foundation tricks in which all of the other more difficult, more complex tricks are more easily built off of as you know that anytime we start building a skill without a foundation it can be really easy to get frustrated in the training because it's not built on the foundation skill. The dog doesn't have any support for that skill, and so the skill tends to fall apart a little bit, and so as teams were moving up both the dog and the handler would start to get frustrated and not have that foundation to support the more difficult criteria and those routines would start to fall apart, and when they fall apart and it gets frustrating it's no longer enjoyable, and so as a result the quality of freestyle wasn't really getting any better and we were losing a lot of competitors. So, Rally-FrEe was a way for freestylers to build skill in their foundation and heel work so that they could be more successful in the sport and find more enjoyment in competing in freestyle, and in the long run improve the quality of freestyle that we were seeing in the ring. What I didn't realize is that teams from other dog sports Rally-Obedience, Agility, they were starting to participate. I didn't realize that this was going to become a worldwide competitive dog sport with participants in over seven countries, I mean I was like, wow. I was like wow. I remember one morning waking up and going how did this happen? I don't understand how this happened. This was supposed to be a fun little game for me and my students, and I'm not the first one that has put together these two sports in an effort to help freestylers or have more fun with Rally. There are many instructors that have done this. Somehow I was able to and I had the support of many, many people to have this grow into a worldwide competitive dog sport, so I'm very thankful for that happening, but really I have no idea how that happened.  Melissa Breau: Hey, it was a lucky break, right?  Julie Flanery: I guess. I guess. I'm sure glad it did though. It truly has met some of my goals. We are seeing a much better quality of freestyle. We are seeing teams coming into it with a stronger foundation, and we're seeing much more skilled teams staying in it longer, so for that I'm really thankful. And we're seeing new people coming into the sport, coming into freestyle that maybe never would have considered it partly because of the choreography and dance aspect to it, and partly because it is a difficult sport to understand the foundation for how to start training, and Rally-FrEe really allows the new exhibitor, the person that just is considering wanting to get their feet wet in freestyle but really don't know much about it, Rally-FrEe is the perfect sport to learn the foundation skills and then maybe ease into freestyle if you find you enjoy that. So, I've really actually been quite pleased at where we've gone in the last five years and how a lot of my goals have already been met with it. Melissa Breau: That's awesome. Hey, good ideas catch on, right? Julie Flanery: Yeah, I guess so. Melissa Breau: So I did want to ask you, you mentioned kind of in there something about novice and intermediate levels, and as somebody who hasn't competed in the sport. I was just kind of curious what some of the different things are I guess that they look at in the competition. Julie Flanery: Yeah. So for most freestyle organizations the scoring or the judging is broken down into several categories, one would be content and execution. So, content and execution would be what do you put into your routine? What is the variety of behaviors and how well are those behaviors executed? What is the accuracy and precision of those behaviors? Another thing that is looked at would be difficulty or creativity. How difficult are the behaviors that you're including in your routine? Are you using hand signals because hand signals indicate lesser difficulty than behaviors that are solely on verbal cues? Another aspect of it would be musicality and interpretation. How well do your behaviors and your sequences match the phrasing in the music? What is your attire, does it match the genre of the music? We also look at transitions and flow, and transitions are behaviors that allow the dog and/or handler to change position and/or direction in a way that creates ease of movement and a visual aesthetic or flow to the routine. And then Rally-FrEe Elements, which is the organization that I created that also conveys titles in freestyle, we also look at the teamwork and engagement between the dog and handler team. How well do they enjoy working together? How well does the handler support the dog? And I think we're probably the only organization that actually looks at teamwork as a judged criteria, so that's something that's a little bit different from most other dog sports. Melissa Breau: That's really interesting, and you kind of mentioned something about the verbals and the visuals in there. I was really curious how much of the cueing is verbal versus visual and what the role of each is in the sport, so do you mind just talking a little more about that? Julie Flanery: Sure. So in freestyle we use three different kinds of cues. We use verbal cues and generally we like those verbal cues to be not loud and obtrusive, but loud enough for the dog to hear them but not so loud that they are disruptive to the routine or distract from the enjoyment of the routine. In using those verbal cues we're aloud to talk to our dogs through the whole routine. There's nothing like in obedience where you need to give one cue. In freestyle you may give multiple cues. Obviously, you don't want your dog refusing cues or not responding to cues, but we are allowed to talk to our dogs the whole time, and so oftentimes we are giving our cues continually throughout a routine. We also use subtle physical cues. So my sweeping arm might mean for the dog to back around me or go out to a distance, but we want those cues to be hidden somewhat within the choreography, we don't want them to be very obvious like what a lure-like hand signal would look like. And then we also use something called choreography cues, and choreography cues allow us to teach new physical cues that we can then use within the routine as our choreography, so they are physical cues that appear counter to a hand signal. So for example, I can teach my dog that when I throw both my arms up into the air that's actually a cue to spin or to take a bow or whatever behavior I attach to it through training, and I can change those choreography cues for each routine as long as I understand and apply correctly the process for putting new cues onto behaviors. But truly, verbal cues are extremely important in musical freestyle and they're probably the most important cues in musical freestyle. It's those strong verbal cues that allow the handler to include their movement and their interpretation into the ring. If you're tired to hand cutes then you're really restricted in how you can interpret the music and that's part of what you're scored on, but having those verbal cues doesn't mean that we don't use some visual or body cues. We just really want those to be subtle and portrayed as part of the choreography. The goal in freestyle is to make it appear as if the dog is not being cued, that he or she is in total sync with the handler, and while the handler is leading the dance the dog is a voluntary partner. We want to create that illusion I guess, that illusion of dance partners, not one of telling the other what to do. If you've ever watched ballroom dance, even though you know one is leading it's really hard to tell because they're both so engaged in that process. So yeah, we have a lot of options in terms of cueing, but we work hard to avoid cues that appear lure-like or showing the dog or leading the dog into what to do. Melissa Breau: How long is your average performance? I mean it seems like...in agility even you have signs out to help you and I mean you kind of have to memorize the whole thing in a freestyle routine. Julie Flanery: Right. Yeah. For beginners, generally a routine is going to be about a minute and a half to two minutes. As you get up into the upper levels they're going to go three minutes plus, and these are routines that you choreograph, so you're actually memorizing them as you choreograph them. But make no mistake, it's not an easy task to choreograph two minutes of behaviors. You're probably looking at anywhere from I would say 30 to 80 cued behaviors in a two to three minutes period. Not only are these cued behaviors, but the dog needs to perform them in a timely manner with the music, so your timing of your cues is actually well before you need the dog to perform it so that he can actually perform it at the point in the music where it makes sense. So there's a lot to cueing in musical freestyle, and so it's something that I've had to learn an awful lot about and it's something that once you get involved in freestyle it becomes a really important part of your success. Melissa Breau: It seems like that would be a really interesting thing, even for somebody who wasn't interested in freestyle, to take a class on just because it feels like there's so much carryover there. Julie Flanery: Yeah. And I think actually, is it Mariah? One of the instructors I think is doing a class on cueing. Melissa Breau: Yeah, I think it's Mariah. Julie Flanery: Yeah. It's an amazing concept in and of itself and all of the different ways that we can teach our dogs to take our cues and all of the different ways that they can read our cues, so yeah, I think it's fascinating and I've spent a lot of time in my own personal training development learning how to do that and what's the most effective and efficient means of doing that. Melissa Breau: So, I wanted to kind of round things out with the three questions I ask everybody who comes on the show. So first up, what's the dog-related accomplishment that you're proudest of? Julie Flanery: Well, that's easy. Creating a venue that allows teams to really succeed and enjoy a sport that I love, but if you're talking personally I'd say that earning our Rally-FrEe Grand Champion MCL title. I really did not realize how hard that accomplishment would be and how fulfilling it was to get there. I created it and I didn't realize how hard that would be, I mean, I had to work hard for that title and it was very, very satisfying to be able to accomplish that. Melissa Breau: Well, congratulations. That's awesome.  Julie Flanery: Thanks. Thank you. Melissa Breau: So possibly my favorite question every single episode, what is the best piece of training advice that you've ever heard? Julie Flanery: The best? Oh, wow. So I've heard tons of great training advice. Certainly something we all do, which is to make our training sessions enjoyable for all involved, that learning doesn't really happen under duress and to keep it fun and light and amusing and enjoyable and amazing. I don't remember where I heard it, but a quote that always stuck with me is that “criteria is joy” and if we don't have that within our sessions then it's really all for naught. That and what I talked about earlier, Ken Ramirez who said that we limit ourselves and our animals by assuming things aren't possible. That hangs in my office because so many of the things that I'm doing with my dog now that I would have said weren't possible just a few years ago, so staying open to that. But I think the one piece of advice that has really benefited me the most as a trainer, I heard from Hannah Branigan. I bet she gets this a lot that she's responsible for most people's success in their training, but for me really she talked about being aware of when and where our peak in a training session and not letting them slide down that backside of the bell curve. I am the queen of just one more, and that little lesson from Hannah has made me so much more aware of when it's time to end a session and how much that really impacts the success of that session. So that's probably one that I have benefited the most from, most recently and that sticks with me. I try to remember that every single session, all right, where's my peak? Don't want to go down the backside of that bell curve. Melissa Breau: So that's three, but I think they were three excellent ones. That's awesome. Julie Flanery: Yeah. Sorry, sorry. Melissa Breau: No, that's okay. They were worth it. Julie Flanery: There's just so much training advice out there, you know? Melissa Breau: That's awesome. No, it's my favorite question for exactly that reason because I feel like It's solid takeaways and you kind of walk away with a really solid reminder of something, and I think those three tie together nicely too. Julie Flanery: Yeah. Melissa Breau: So, my final question is who is someone else in the dog world that you look up to? Julie Flanery: You mean aside from all the great instructors at FDSA? Melissa Breau: Preferably, I mean, they're all awesome. Julie Flanery: Yeah. That's right. They really are so passionate, so compassionate about what they do. I couldn't say goodbye without saying it's a real honor to work with them all and learn from them all, but outside of Fenzi, boy, the list is almost as long. I think probably Kathy Sadao has had the most long-term impact on me starting from probably about 15 years ago. Diane Valkavitch, my hero in freestyle, who taught me everything I know about transitions. I can't leave out Michelle Pouliot who inspires and pushes me to do better every single day really. And Cassandra Hartman, she's another really fabulous freestyler who is...she's like the complete package when it comes to training, performance, relationships with her dogs. She's just a real inspiration...all of them, super inspirational trainers and I'm really, really honored to learn from all of them.  Melissa Breau: That's awesome because there are some new names in that list, so that's super exciting. Julie Flanery: Yeah. Melissa Breau: I'm always interested in more trainers that I can go out and look up and read about and see what they have out there in the world, so that's awesome. Thank you.  Julie Flanery: Oh, yeah. They are great, and they all compete in various dog sports as well, so in spite of their current interest in freestyle and them being such great freestyle trainers they really have a wealth of information in regards to all different dog sports and training in general, you know, training is training is training and these folks have really impacted how I train and who I am as a trainer today. Melissa Breau: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Julie. Julie Flanery: Thank you so much. It was really fun. Melissa Breau: It was really fun, and thank you to all of our listeners for tuning in. We have a super special announcement this week. You'll no longer have to wait two weeks between episodes. That's right. We're taking the podcast weekly. That means we'll be back next Friday, this time with Mariah Hinds, who Julie mentioned there in the podcast, to talk impulse control, positive proofing, and competitive obedience. If you haven't already, please subscribe to our podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice to have your episode automatically download to your phone as soon as it becomes available. CREDITS: Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzi for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty-free by BenSound.com; the track featured here is called “Buddy.” Audio editing provided by Chris Lang and transcription written by CLK Transcription Services. Thanks again for tuning in -- and happy training!

Melissa Breau: This is Melissa Breau and you're listening to the Fenzi Dog Sports Podcast brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy, an online school dedicated to providing high quality instruction for competitive dog sports using only the most current and progressive training methods. Today we'll be talking to Dr. Amy Cook. Amy has been training dogs for nearly 25 years and has been specializing in the rehabilitation of shy and fearful dogs for over 15 years. She's the creator of The Play Way, her process for helping dogs learn to cope with the world around them. She's also a certified dog behavior consultant, a long-standing professional member of the Association of Professional Dog Trainers, and has attended all four Chicken Camps in Hot Springs, Arkansas taught by Bob Bailey. Amy returned to school in 2006 to get her PhD in psychology from UC Berkeley. Her research there focused on the dog/human relationship and its effect on problem solving strategies dogs employ. She also recently started a blog at playwaydogs.com, and everyone should definitely go check it out. Hey, Amy, welcome to the podcast. Amy Cook: Hi, Melissa. Thanks for having me. This is so exciting. Melissa Breau: I'm very excited to talk to you. To start us out do you want to tell us a little bit about the dogs you have now and what you're working on with them? Amy Cook: Oh, my dogs. You know, when you start people talking on their dogs it's kind of endless, so you're going to have to stop me when you've heard about my lovely dogs. I have currently, I lost my old girl last year who I would have had a lot to say about, but I have currently Marzipan who some people know, she's my Whippet, she's five and a half, I want to say, or so, and with her I mainly do agility. She's been actually out with an injury for now what seems like a million years and since dinosaurs have roamed the earth. She got sort of her foot reconstructed, she had reconstructive surgery on her toe. So it's been a real adventure having a dog go from three classes a week and traveling every weekend to you live in a box. It's been hard on both of us, but also stretching for both of us because of how I can keep her happy in different ways than I used to before. And I have little baby Caper who I think you helped name if I'm not mistaken. She is a ten-month-old terrier, chihuahua-terrier is what she is. Melissa Breau: So what did Marzipan do to her foot that took her out of commission? Amy Cook: You know, yeah, you'd think it would be during sport or something since we do such crazy stuff, but no, we were hiking and I think the crime was that it was not quite winter, it wasn't winter, it was summer, and the ground used to be marshy and now was dry and cracked. I think she just tweaked a toe just running, just not even running a lot, just running kind of a normal amount, and it didn't look injured at all, and so it took so long, it's like, oh, rest it for three weeks, it'll be fine. Then it was like, oh, that wasn't long enough, rest it for eight weeks and it'll be fine. The specialists come in and they're like, you're going to take four months and it'll be fine. Then finally to the agility, fancy agility surgeon and he said, “Yeah, I think we should do some surgery on her toe. It's not healing.” So from that point, I know, it was six weeks of splint and six weeks of bandage and now it's going to be 12 weeks of rehab. You know, it was quite a shock to the system. She's my main partner, my main dog. I didn't have the puppy, she was the only dog I had at the time that happened. So our training life took a turn for a bit. But we're almost there. Almost there. Six more weeks, I hope. Melissa Breau: The end is in sight. Amy Cook: End is in sight. Very happy about that. Melissa Breau: So you mentioned the puppy. Where did the puppy come from? Amy Cook: Caper, she was my unplanned pregnancy as my friend likes to say. God, she was…a friend sent me a picture, I'm like, oh my God, she's so cute, it's a classic story, I just need a little pocket dog, I just need a little…Marzipan is going to be out for a while. My next sport dog will come in 2018, I thought to myself, and I just need a little dog to tide me over, I'll get a little Chihuahua or I'll get a little pocket dog, I'll have a little fun companion for a bit. So that'll be fun. So I get this little sort of try on as a foster dog and the first thing she does from week one is she's bringing me toys, she's pushing me, she's, “Why are we not doing more? I'm not a pocket dog. Put me down. Why are you picking me up? I don't want this. Here's a toy. Can you tug this?” She was so active. It's like I'd adopted a Border Collie puppy. It's crazy. I was like, oh, well, that's not who I thought you were, but I can roll with that. Okay. All right. That's fun. She's a fun little dog. She's really fun to train and she came with focus out of the box. I've barely trained focus in her and she doesn't take her eyes of me. It's crazy. It's really fun. Melissa Breau: She's really cute. Amy Cook: It's a real contrast to Marzipan. She's so cute. And it's a real contrast to Marzipan because I'm used to the sighthound way and she's all terrier, all terrier. I'm learning a lot from that, from working with that psychology, you know? It's different. Melissa Breau: So I know that one of the things about your intro that I don't think I'd known before I started doing some research for the podcast is that you'd been to Chicken Camp, especially four times. So I really want to hear more about that. Just like, what your impressions were, what your thoughts were about it, what was it like? Amy Cook: Amazing. Amazing. I went to Chicken Camp. It's like a friend of mine and I, we went together, and I'm really glad to see that Bob is still here and with us and doing Chicken Camps, but at that time I think it was right after his wife had died and they were doing the camps together, and he wasn't sure how much he was really going to continue. It was like, God, I've been putting this off way too long, we have to go, we have to go. So I actually did I think two in one summer and then two the next summer if I'm not mistaken. I kind of crammed them in. Melissa Breau: Wow. Amy Cook: Yeah. Because I really wanted to take advantage of learning from Bob. There's really nobody like him. At the time I was very, very into clicker trainer, I mean of course still, but I was much more so then. Learning it, learning it a lot on the internet, a lot from books, a lot from just every source I could find and I wanted to go to somebody who was so close to the, I guess I could say origins of it if that's fair to say, and learn as much as I could. Honestly it was absolutely life changing to learn both from him and to train an animal that does not meet you halfway, that does not help at all with the learning process, isn't trying to work with you at all. I think if you can train a dog that's one thing, but it doesn't guarantee you can train another animal. But if you can train a bunch of other animals you can probably train a dog because they make it so much easier on you and the other animals kind of don't, at least that's my impression. So it was wonderful and he's such a good teacher. He knows exactly how to lay just the right amount in front of you. There was one time when a chicken was pecking me like crazy and I was really afraid of her and he actually shaped us both without telling me that's what was happening. So I got the experience of just quietly being compassionately and respectfully shaped. It was just a beautiful experience. I loved chicken camp so much and it changed the way I train fundamentally. Absolutely. Melissa Breau: For anybody out there who might not be familiar with the concept do you want to just briefly kind of explain the idea? Amy Cook: Sure. So what you do is maybe you're a dog trainer, maybe you're a bird or exotic animal trainer, I went to camp with a few of those, or even a psychology professor. If you want to learn how to apply the techniques of operant conditioning in a very controlled environment you can go to Chicken Camp. You pay money to spend a week with Bob and two chickens and a partner and a _____ (16:26) doing the little exercises that he lays out for you. They get increasingly complex and you first start with how do I click and how do I feed this animal in a way that is correct? How do you feed a chicken? They peck. You can't hand them with your hand a piece of feed, right? So you go through all the mechanics of how to train a chicken, clicker train, and then he gives you these little tasks. So it's like, you know, here are some disks, have your chicken peck only the red one and not the yellow or blue one. You're like, oh, piece of cake. I can do that. Famous last words, right? Sure enough, one errant click somewhere because you're late, because dogs can kind of handle you being a little bit late, right, and still progress, one errant late click for the chicken and the chicken goes, oh, all right, got it, and starts doing that thing that you clicked over and over and over again. You're like, no, no, I didn't…wait. I just…could you not? I didn't mean that. No. One click could get you a hundred clicks in the wrong direction to get out. And you really learn to be accurate because you can't afford to make certain kinds of mistakes. And the chicken will get full, so every click and every food they eat is measured. You have to really, really be careful and very, very good, and you make all sorts of sloppy mistakes and you pay for them really harshly. Your chicken does not do anything you thought you were teaching, you're all over the place. You know, you find yourself maybe turning to things you otherwise do with your dogs that maybe you don't realize you do, like oh, come on, just could you just…then you're like, wait, I can't do that to a chicken. Do I do that to my dog? I shouldn't do that to my dog either. It pares you down to the pieces of the technology that actually work and the chicken forces you to get better because she's not going to cover a single mistake that you make, ever. That's it. Click once wrong and oh, boy. You're going to be there all day. Melissa Breau: I definitely think Chicken Camp is on my someday list, on my bucket list, something I would love to do. Amy Cook: For sure. Absolutely. Run, don't walk. For sure. Melissa Breau: So I wanted to ask you too about the early days of FDSA because I believe, I think you actually told me that you were one of the first teachers that Denise brought on at Fenzi Dog Sports Academy. So I was really curious to get some of your impressions on how you think it's changed and kind of what happened when she initially approached you. Amy Cook: Oh, boy. You know, it was standing in the right place at the right time, I swear. You know, she had taught online elsewhere and decided to do this endeavor, and I was just…I'm pretty sure I was just finishing grad school and saying, well, I guess I'm going back to dog training. I wasn't sure what I had in store, I'll just revamp or ramp up my business again, fine. And I can remember, I was standing near a freezer in her garage and I can't exactly remember how it came up but she said, “We have a behavior arm, could you teach what you teach, teach a class in what you do?” Boy, I felt…the answer was both yes and no. The answer is no because I've never done that, but the answer is yes because well, it has to be possible, right? Sure. I'll certainly try it. I really wanted to do something like that. But for a second there I was like, really? Behavior? Behavior, though. I mean, behavior. It's complicated. People are all over the place. Dogs are behaving all over the place. It's a lot to…how will I do this online? But I had faith. She really had vision early on for how this was going to go and we brainstormed, I was really excited about it. She actually came up with the title of the class, Dealing with the Bogeyman, that's hers. She's like, let's call it that. I was like, sure. It was exciting. It was exciting times and I was really just like, well, I'm happy to run a class and see what I can do for people. If it's something I don't feel is resulting in improvements that are reasonable for the dogs I'm helping then it's not right, then online is more suited for skill-based stuff and not so much the concepts or the complicated behaviors. I shouldn't have been afraid because it's been amazing. It's been amazing. I got to say, I think that my online students…oh, well, I wrote a blog post about this because I was just so moved by this. My online students get to their goals faster than in person students do, and there's something very intoxicating about that. To get somebody closer to the resolution in such a shorter amount of time, you know, I was like, well, then I want everybody online. Everybody get online. Everybody, quick. You know? And it's amazing how much contact I have with somebody who takes an online class. They can talk to me every day whereas no in-person client does that or can afford to really. That's the reason. And I get every day almost contact with people trying to apply the lessons, run into problems, and ask again. I get to fine tune it so much. It's like living with people which is what I always want to do when I get a new client. I'm always thinking wow, if I could just move in, you and I together, we could fix your situation and I could help you. But you get an hour a week. It's not enough, you know? And boy, being online with people in amazing and the community that Denise has been able to build through Facebook and all of that. I don't know. I think about it all the time. I think about how much access we have to changing…I know it's ____ (22:34) any other way to say it, changing the world. You know? It's the ripple effect. You have to put it out there and say, this is the way I think we should be doing this, and let me help you with it. And the changes I've seen just in these short few years have been really, really inspiring. I'm so grateful to be a part of it. Melissa Breau: So my understanding is the very first class that you started offering right out of the gate with Denise was the Bogeyman course, right? Amy Cook: It was. It was. And that's all I ran for a long time. Melissa Breau: Do you want to just explain briefly to listeners kind of what the course is and a little bit about the methodology that you use? Amy Cook: Yeah. So the course is Dealing with the Bogeyman, and it's designed for fearful, stressed, reactive dogs, dogs that are overwhelmed with what's going on for them, what they're afraid of, and really getting to the root of problem and really trying to get to the source, get right to the bottom of the problem rather than just kind of manage it which is what we end up doing a lot of times. We find a way to get to about a stasis and we kind of coast along there. But stress is a hard thing to experience. Everybody listening knows exactly what I mean. Wouldn't we all not want to have the stress we have in our lives? Every one of us wants to have a less stress life pretty much because it's hard and I feel that for dogs. It's hard for them to live in our world when they're so stressed. So this class is designed to help with that at a root level. What I do is I use social connection and social play to help get them in a state where they can process their triggers a lot better, and I reduce the use of food, I reduce the use of toys sometimes to zero, but not always all the way to zero, to help them. And it didn't start out…like, it started out, the first iteration of the class is not like the current iteration that's running right now. It has evolved a lot over time. As I watched students have more success with even more play I started emphasizing more and more play. It was a part of the program before but it wasn't as emphasized as it is now. But I've seen the wonders of what it can do, and so now it's really the bulk of what the approach is. I think I might have lost your question in the fact that I'm just talking on. Is that what you're asking? Melissa Breau: Not at all. You actually answered it pretty well. I just wanted you to kind of explain what the Bogeyman course was and kind of what's involved and I think you did that very nicely. I do… Amy Cook: People are going to play. If you take the class you're going to play, play, play, play, and then you're going to play some more, and then your dog is going to get better. That's _____ (25:35). Melissa Breau: So that leads me very well into my next question which is asking you to kind of…I know when you and I talk about it usually you call it kind of The Play Way is like, the name of the methodology even though the course if the Bogeyman course. So I was curious if you wanted to sum kind of what the play way is up in a short blurb. I mean, you talked about it a little bit, but if there's anything kind of you want to add there. Amy Cook: Yeah. The play way is specifically using social play and social connection, so not tug, not fetch, not that kind of thing, but being goofy and silly and making your dog laugh and having a fun time with your dog, and taking that play and using that to directly solve problems that they have with fear. So it's dog centric, it's about the dog, him or herself coming to a new understanding of the thing that they don't currently understand. So if they're afraid of strangers it's because they have a misunderstanding of what the strangers are about, because none of the strangers really mean to hurt them, and I think they don't have enough information. Now it's hard to get dogs to get new information about things that are scary to them because they're scared of them and you can't look at it openly and you can't deal with it as well. Like, I can't deal with spiders. You put one on me, I'm done. I can't deal with that. So if you want to reframe that it's not going to work until you get me distance, you get me in a calm state, and I really found that play puts them in this completely different emotional space that allows for our therapeutic attempts to really take root. And I realize none of that is brief, none of what I just said is brief. I don't think I can be brief. I think I'm genetically wired to be the opposite of. Melissa Breau: But I think it gives people a good idea, right, of what the methodology is and kind of what you're endorsing here. I mean, I think that it's very different probably than what most people are used to hearing about dealing with fear and dealing with dogs' sensitivities which is so often food-based. Amy Cook: It's different from anything I had ever done. I mean, I've been doing this a long time and it's a complete departure for me. It's not at all what I've done most of the time in helping dogs. Melissa Breau: So where did it come from? Where did the idea… Amy Cook: Well, yeah. Kind of…it's an evolving idea I should first say, right, I'm not finished. I mean, I want to keep investigating all of this and putting all the little pieces together. Right now I'm at a place where I've put some pieces together and it's hanging together, it's helping, and that's really exciting. It's sort of this big evolution of influences. I first got together with Denise because I had known her before kind of just from our local training circles, but she and I both got puppies at the same time and they both turned out to have every similar sorts of views on the world and challenges and training. It made us get together kind of more often. Once a week we would talk about it and shoot the breeze about these different things. I started watching her train in person more which I hadn't really done a lot of previous. And the amount of social interaction and the way she was working with her dogs was sort of reminding me of how I had been feeling lately about a lot of clicker training was feeling remote to me, at least at the time. It was feeling like very Chicken Camp. I'll tell you maybe a little bit about that later, but where you observe your animal a lot, so you're watching, and you're holding your clicker, and you're kind of being still and letting your animal think. Or maybe it was just me, I was making learning a little more sterile than I needed it to be, and she had so much more play and relationship in it. And through watching her do that and training with her and exploring that with my own dog I started just to…some things were clicking in my head. Then I'm also friends with Grisha Stewart and when she was creating BAT which is behavior adjustment training she was really exploring how dog centric training could be. Like, how much can I let the dog do for him or herself without intruding so much and let the process happen so naturally? And it was inspiring to me because we were tending not to do that, we were tending to make a lot of associations. Here's a cookie, I'm making an association for you, I'll be there in your process with you. That was percolating a bit too, about how to…I mean, really dogs, all of us should know how to deal with our fears if we're given the right environment to do so. An animal should know how to calm him or herself. An animal should know how to become less afraid, to investigate something that's frightening. It just isn't available if the stimulus is too high. If you're too afraid you can't do it, but all of us have that kind of wisdom in us. We all know how to make something better. So with that percolating. And then I sort of had this undercurrent of a bit of dissatisfaction with the way rehab was going with the basic tools that I had. It worked, but I don't know, I felt that there was something more. And when I was in grad school I got a chance to actually read a whole bunch more literature than I had been able to read as a nonstudent, although I was studying Skinner and studying Pavlov and using science to train dogs, for sure science based all the way. Now I had big libraries behind me and a whole bunch of information and people I could ask, and I realized when we're dealing with human fears we don't really do it like we do with dogs, we don't really classically condition them in that same way. And more importantly, when children have fears we don't classically…or maybe someone does, but I was seeing that a lot of therapy has to do with play and has to do with relaxing and talking things through. I thought, how can I do this with dogs? I can't talk things through with dogs. So all these pieces were just kind of in the air for me. And as each influence kind of came in I started to think, well, okay, I like what this distance is doing, but the dogs are on their own, and for our sport dogs we need them to be turning to us and be more interactive and wanting to do things with us. How can I put myself in this picture with them, with their dog centric work without impeding it, without taking it over, without going back to trying to click or make associations with classical conditioning? How can I blend them? And I started to just experiment and see what dogs needed. And it kind of all came together. It took a few passes through Bogeyman for me to see just how I wanted to impart it to people. Honestly that's not even true because I keep tweaking it, I tweak it every time figuring out how to explain it better and more. But that's where it came from. It's partly human psychology, human therapy, and partly the great distances that Grisha is experimenting with and letting a dog solve her own problems, and then the great relationship building stuff that Denise is just amazing at, and reading when you are being too much for your dog and when you're not giving them enough agency to come at you. You know, she's just so good at that and I drink everything…every time I get to see her do anything like that I drink it up and think how can this apply to dogs in trouble? How can I use this? You know, it's very inspiring. Melissa Breau: Yeah. I mean, I have to say, having had the chance to watch Denise train a couple of times now I feel exactly the same way. When you see somebody who is really incredible at what they do and you just get a chance to watch it's just, I mean, it's fascinating. I'm looking forward to camp again this year so much because last year…you get to watch, I mean, all the instructors at FDSA are so incredible, and to be able to spend a couple of days doing nothing but watch these incredible trainers do what they're best at, it's a really neat experience. Amy Cook: It really is. I change every time and I would have my lesson with Denise and then I would sit there and watch her do whoever came after me just to kind of watch what she did and go, how come what she's doing here isn't what I have access to in the pet world? I came from…I did pet dog training all of this time, my whole career, my whole life, pet dog training and behaviors in pet dogs, aggression and fear, stress, all that stuff, not really sports stuff. Sport I got into late and I just did for myself. And it's a whole different world. Pet dog trainers don't have access. It's almost two non-overlapping circles. It isn't quite true but it felt that way. When I watch a lot of…Shade is one of those people too, I watch her and I go, how come that wasn't something I could have learned when I was learning how to train dogs? That part is missing from the pet dog trainer education and I wish we were a lot more…I wish there was a lot more overlap than there is. I hope that's in our future. Melissa Breau: That makes both of us. So we got a little bit away from kind of what we were talking about originally, but that's okay. I think the conversation went good places. But I want to kind of bring us back for a second to the Bogeyman course. We talked through that a little bit but you also now teach the Management for Reactive Dogs class. So I wanted to give you a chance to tell us a little bit about how that course is different, and what that course covers, and kind of why you felt the need to add a second course. Amy Cook: Yeah. That course is different. I teach that as an adjunct or kind of a package, but I mean, you can jump in at either point, they're not sequential. Because when you live with a dog who has some troubles it's great that you can put aside time for therapy, and those therapeutic moments are really impactful, they really make a difference and that's all great. It takes time to do it though, and in the meantime you still have to potty your dog and you still have to get your houseguests in, right, and in the meantime you still have to drive somewhere. Life goes on. You can't stay under threshold. I have a way more conservative definition of threshold than most people do, so staying under it gets even harder if you're going with my definition of threshold. So that doesn't solve everybody's problem. That's great, you can go through Bogeyman but you can't potty your dog, right? So management class is for the times when your dog is going to be over threshold. Maybe not massively so, maybe not full on into the biggest display over, but worried, actually triggered by being scared, seeing somebody outside or seeing a strange dog, and it covers all of the strategies to get you through daily life. How do you get a positive leash walk going? What do you do when your dog barks at a window when someone is walking by the house? How do you get your dog outside without rehearsing the worst behaviors of their stress and their fear and their anxieties? I don't want anyone to worsen anything. Management is what you put in place first, you just say, how can I make sure nothing gets worse than it currently is? How can I relieve the pressure as best I can, keep everything as positive as possible, what skills do I need to do that? Once that's in place you're like, all right, now let me set aside some time for therapy to get at the root of this. So management is how you can get through your leash walks without getting your leash all tangled, how to feed in a way that keeps the dog's nose right on that cookie magnetically. I'm continually surprised that that's hard for us all because we're trained to keep the cookie off, it's not a lure, we're supposed to reward after. So a lot of little details that way, and the two together get you through kind of the problems you're having with your dog. I also teach a learning theory class but it hasn't been on the schedule for a bit, but I think that one is coming back too. So I do have three classes that I currently teach as well. Melissa Breau: Well, that's exciting. Do you want to briefly tell us what that kind of… Amy Cook: Yeah. Yeah. I'm thinking…yeah. I'm thinking of revamping that one. I do a learning theory class that's a bit of the basics to catch up, make sure we're all on the same page with operant and classical conditioning and how it works, what it's for. But I've been doing this for a long, long time, and there's a lot of interesting practicalities when using those models. There's a lot of overlap between the two models. There's a lot of times when you're not sure which one to use. So I wrote this class to be a practical introduction for people who had been trying this stuff. Like, I'm trying to use operant conditioning but this is the common thing I run into. I look for all the common pitfalls, all the holes, all the should I do this or that, because I've heard if I do that it's going to make this happen. I'm like, aha, glad you asked, I'm going to write a whole lecture on it. So it's sort of very practical, very nitty gritty, very what a dog trainer actually needs to know. Like, you really don't need to know all the schedules of reinforcement. All of you out there, if you studied all the conditioning models, you also studied schedules of reinforcement, but you don't really use them in real life, right? So I pared this down to the stuff you actually do every day of your life, and then we talk for fun about things like can dogs feel jealous or can dogs tell time, can they estimate things, what kind of a life does a dog lead inside their brains? We foray into that for fun. Amy Cook: But I'm currently revamping it a little bit. Melissa Breau: You can't dangle those two questions out there without giving us at least a brief answer. So can dogs feel jealous? Can they tell time? Amy Cook: Well, that's what we discuss, right? That's what we discuss. If you lay out the evidence for jealousy I think it doesn't pass. I think what they feel, and this is a guess, I'm not saying I have a fact, right, I think they feel a precursor to jealousy. I think they feel the thing that is like, oh, I want that, no, why does…I want. A very basic version of feeling upset and wanting that if it had more self-awareness we would be comfortable calling jealousy, because jealousy has this sense of she shouldn't have that and I wish I had the thing she had. It's got more layers to it. But just because it doesn't have the outer layers doesn't mean it doesn't have the core. So it's my guess knowing what emotions they do have and what emotions they don't have. They don't seem to have secondary, they do seem to have primary emotions. They probably don't have well developed jealousy but everything is a continuum and having a basic version of jealousy, it becomes a semantic argument. Like, maybe we would just call that jealousy then, why can't we just say that's what jealousy is in dogs and say they have it? You know? So we toss that around a lot. It's a class for talkers and thinkers and tweakers and people who like to debate back and forth about definitions. It's that kind of geeky class. Melissa Breau: That sounds excellent. Amy Cook: It's like me. Melissa Breau: Hey, it sounds pretty good to me. I'll have to take it next time it comes around. Amy Cook: You're welcome. Melissa Breau: So now that we've talked a little bit about that, I mean, looking at a puppy who doesn't necessarily have a fear issue, or you mentioned you did get Caper fairly recently, how do you kind of try to raise that puppy in a way or lay groundwork for that puppy in a way that really allows them to become a healthy adult dog so you don't see some of those issues crop up? Amy Cook: Yeah. It's been fun. Every puppy is this adventure gift, right? I mean, part of why her name is Caper is because we're on a caper, we're on an adventure together. You can think you have one thing when you meet your dog or when you get to know a dog and have something entirely else at any point. And you know, as Denise would say, you train the dog in front of you today, right? So I say great, I've started with a brand new puppy, she's not really a blank slate because we know nobody is really a blank slate, but she hasn't had anything really happen to her, but you know, really she's a dog that was found stray in the streets of Fremont and picked up and put into a shelter and then into a rescue, and she certainly has a history. So what's been really fun is using the sensitive tools I have now that I didn't have before, or you know, that you're always a better trainer this year than you were last year, right? Oh, boy. Please, God. You know, so I feel like she's the Fenzi puppy in a way because Marzipan kind of wasn't. I mean, she was, but this one, I don't know, this one feels like she really is. So I think of that and I think, who do I have today? Who are you today? How do you feel today? I get to keep asking her how she feels, and I feel like I can hear more clearly what her answer is than I have every felt before with other dogs. It's really exciting. She has her issues, we went through a season, her heat cycle and a false pregnancy, and maybe from that or maybe a kind of fear period, I don't know, where she was all of a sudden some other kind of puppy. I thought wow, okay, I don't have the puppy I had a minute ago. What do I have now? And it's been just, at times a not so fun challenge, but mostly a fun challenge while I figure out what her needs really are, and she's completely different. I mean, maybe everybody says this, I'm going to go back and see if you ask this of everybody or what people say now, but thinking of my last four dogs, not a stitch of similarity in any of them to each other, you know? Like, I'm going to get a dog who's going to be like this and we're going to do that. You get the dog and you're like, oh, hi, nice to meet you. Who are you? What _____ (43:30). You know? She's enormous fun and I'm taking a lot of time with her. I don't care. A lot of people would just…you know, there's this pressure in puppyhood to get a bunch of skills in because they're just so malleable and you can start all this stuff and they love to learn and all that is true, but I also know that I can teach an older dog, any dog those kinds of things, and the time in immaturity, the time when they're growing up is the time to actually smell the flowers, you know? To chase the actual butterflies, to let them take in the world without so much interference from my input and from training. We go out and we exist together. We see the world and I resist the urge to try to take advantage of every second and train all the fun stuff. It feels more holistic and it feels more like we're bonded in a way that it just feels richer because I'm spending so much time listening and asking her how she feels and what she'd like to do. She's just an n of one, we like to say. It's not like I can say, and that leads you to the best dogs in the world, because I don't know. It's her. But I feel like when she does then say yeah, I can work, I'm ready to work, the quality of the connection that we have is much, much better after I've let her. And I directly learned that from the stuff that Denise was investigating with Brito. I mean, it's really…I'm just so grateful she got a little dog before I did, you know? Next I want her to get a Border Collie so then I can get one of those. It's like, you do it first. Somebody pave that. I don't want to make that _____ (45:20). Melissa Breau: So we're nearing the end, unfortunately, so I want to ask you those big questions that are always some of my favorites. Amy Cook: We just started. I have so much more to say. I have so many more things. Melissa Breau: Well then, we'll have to have you back, that's all. Amy Cook: All right. Melissa Breau: So I want to ask you what the dog related accomplishment that you're proudest of is. Amy Cook: Oh, my. Well, right now that would be Marzipan who I guess I didn't talk too much about. I have a theme. I have a theme in my life where sometimes I get a dog and I think, yeah, I can just make her into that, I can do that, I'm a good trainer, I know what I'm doing, I can just solve that problem, no problem. And then I realize that I'm on crack and I don't know what I'm doing at all, and get in way over my head. I got a dog long ago named Hannah who was very, very fearful, and I didn't estimate correctly how difficult that was going to be, and it was really, really, really hard, but I got into it going, no, just a few weeks of clicking and I'll be fine. So when I get my Whippet, Marzipan, I had intended to get my main sport dog, I'm getting my dog, and I'm going to do all this fun stuff, and I get whippet, and she's not purpose bred, she was five months old, and she didn't really work, didn't enjoy it, and I thought, so what? I'm a trainer, I'll just train her to like that stuff. It was harder than I thought it was and of course therefore then a gift, right? It led me to people like Denise, it led me to people like Shade, it led me to understand that I don't know anything about drive building and need to actually learn from people who do. But we got…she's in master's level agility and she does very, very well, and she's fast, and she's connected, and she's focused, and she didn't start out that way, and it was really hard mostly because I didn't know. I was applying the tools I had and they weren't right. So I'm really, really proud that together we were able to find a key to her lock if you can say that, and that I was able to change enough, because I had to do all that work, I had to do all the heavy lifting. It's not on the dog, right? It's not on the dog to change. You have to be who the dog needs. I had to change the way I presented myself. She didn't like a lot of things I would like, a lot of the things I was doing were not the things for her. Through the help of Sandy Rogers and through a bunch of people we found a way to motivate her, found a way to make her love this, and I got a non-working bred off-breed to find a way to love and look forward to and perform well in agility, and I'm just really proud of that and I'm proud of her for sticking with me through my many, many late front crosses. Thank you very much. I'm really proud of her and I'm really proud of the teamwork we have. Melissa Breau: That sounds like it's totally a good thing to be proud of. It sounds like you guys worked really, really hard to develop it and she's come a long way. So that's awesome. Amy Cook: Yeah. I'm thankful for it. It's lessons to me, right? I'm grateful that I've been able to grow in this direction because if she were a really easy dog I might not have the skills that I have, right? So that's the upside to all those things. So I'm just very grateful. Melissa Breau: So potentially my favorite question every single episode, since we've had somebody quote you on the podcast, not to add any extra pressure. Amy Cook: Oh my goodness. Hi, Julie. Melissa Breau: What is the best piece of training advice that you've ever heard? Amy Cook: Well, you know, my advice, that's my…no. I'm kidding. That piece that I made up, that's the best advice ever. No. Gosh, remind me to tell you the story one day of how that lecture at camp came to be because it happened the night before, believe it or not. Two. Everybody else got two, so I'm taking two. Melissa Breau: Go for it. Amy Cook: So I'm just saying that there's two. One that really, really made a difference, has really impacted me, always stuck with me, was from Bob Bailey. He said observe your animal, observe your learner. And you know, maybe that doesn't sound so deep at first. Of course, you'll watch your learner and you'll learn what you need to know. But it solved so many little problems and so many things that get in the way of your training because you're not seeing who is actually right there in front of you. And the short example is that you have to teach a chicken to peck not just the circle, it's like a construction paper circle, and not just the circle, but the dead center of it. That's really harder than it sounds because they move very quickly and the speed it takes for you to see the chicken and then depress your thumb onto the clicker, by the time the sound is made the chicken is on its way back up from pecking. Melissa Breau: Right. Amy Cook: So you need to click, plan to click and start the clicking when the chicken is on its way down. So it took many lessons, I'm concatenating it for this reason, for you, but Bob had to give me little pieces over time. But it was I had to know what her head and her beak angle, and what she looked like when she was going to be pecking the center and decide before she got there that that was going to be a successful peck and then click that one. And instead I was looking at the peck, I was looking at where the peck landed and trying to click the correct ones. Instead you click on the trajectory toward. And if you don't know what your animal looks like, if you don't observe her really closely you can't tell which peck is going to be the one and therefore your click will be late and therefore you'll never train the chicken. It doesn't really happen, with dogs you can be late, it's all right, but chickens no. And I was teaching a dog to tug open a fridge and I had to call him because I kept not getting it right, I couldn't see what my problem was. I was clicking when she was tugging and it just wasn't getting more tugging out of it. And he asked me, “What does her neck look like when she's about to make the best tug, about to make the strongest contraction?” I'm like, “I wasn't looking at her neck.” “What were you looking at?” The tug in her mouth? Well, are you looking at the clench of her claws as she settled in to really get a good tug in? Click that. And in the matter of an evening she was tugging really tugging really hard and pulling the fridge open. You really have to look at who you have and not see what you want to see and not click or reinforce end products but reinforce process because it's process you're trying to often get when you're training. So that one stuck and made me a much more accurate and better trainer. Then my second is Denise in the sense of…I don't know if she boils it down, but in the way of attitude before precision, I'm sorry, yeah, attitude before precision where you feed cookies for attitude. If that behavior was incorrect you give a cookie anyway. I think a lot of times we as trainers get caught up in, I reinforce the right ones and I make sure not to reinforce the ones I don't want, and that's very engrained in us. So don't click or don't reinforce the incorrect behavior. She does it all the time. She's like, that isn't correct, but my dog tried, you know, cookies for attitude. When I first was aware she was doing that it made me a little nervous. It's like, you're going to get all this bad behavior in the mix. How is this going to work? But it works beautifully. It works beautifully. It keeps your dog in the game. She really helped me see that cookies for trying is not bad. How to handle a mistake is to reward it because your dog tried and was with you and you can just _____ (54:03) most of the cookies are for the right things, don't worry so much. Your learner has an emotional life and that's way, way, way more important than anything else. She codified it down into attitude over precision. It really centered me in my training a lot. So those are my two. Melissa Breau: Those two things, they feel like they have a lot in common, just in terms of kind of looking at the bigger picture of things, you know? Amy Cook: Right. Right. Exactly. It's very bigger picture, and I think clicker training, just for me, I shouldn't speak for anyone else, can get me a little too focused on minutia and make me forget the rest. So those were good for me to learn and to incorporate at this stage of my training. Melissa Breau: I certainly don't think you're alone in that. I mean, clicker training, it's all about splitting, and sometimes when you're splitting it's hard to hold both ideas in your mind at the same time, right? Amy Cook: Right. It's kind of like, wait, I'm splitting, but should I lump again? It's not lumping, it's splitting and wait…mixed metaphors. Forest. I'm splitting in the forest. Wait. Something like that, right? Someone listening can suggest something much more elegant than that because I've never been known for an elegant metaphor, I'll tell you that. Melissa Breau: So for this last one, who else, somebody else in the dog world that you look up to, and I'm going to push you not to name Denise since she's gotten named lots and we've talked to her lots. Amy Cook: No. You can't do that. I know, because I talked about her way too much. I didn't plan to talk about her constantly for the past hour, I promise you. Melissa Breau: I'm sure you have one or two that I'm not super familiar with. Amy Cook: No. No. No. It really isn't all about Denise, but I stand on the shoulders of giants, right? Everybody who has come before me is an influence on me, and everyone has taken their turn. I had a troubled dog years ago that I brought to everybody. Instead of doing some TTouch with her I brought her to Linda Tellington-Jones, you know? Like, I sought everybody I could find to help and to teach me, and I absolutely stand on their shoulders, all of them. I credit myself with nothing and them with everything except my own mistakes and however that phrase really goes. So since I can't name Denise I'm going to anyway. What I admire most…no, I'll be vague and we'll pretend I didn't mention her. What I admire most in a trainer I can look up to now is independent thinking. People will say there's nothing new in training, you know, it's all been done before it's just how we're repacking or talking about it differently. I don't think so anymore. I think there have been just a few people, at least on my radar, that are willing to challenge something that's supposed to be the way it's done and try it on dogs and not say, well, that's in the wrong _____ (57:12) or that's supposed to do this, that's going to make a dog do x, can't do that. Because I was that, that's how we all start when we're learning, we acquire the wealth and the wisdom of other people who say don't do it this way and please do it that way. So you do. And we can get a little lost in that sometimes. So I gravitate toward the independent thinker who isn't about I do it this way because this is the way we do it. I like people who say, I don't know, what would happen if I just give a cookie when he was wrong? Let's find out. I mean, yeah, of course it's going to make him a little confused, but I can fix that, I'm not worried about it. That kind of confidence of I'm an independent thinker and I don't do just what people do because it's what they do. I'm not terribly like that so I look up to it. I think Denise does that. Grisha also does that. And Donna Duford, I don't know if you remember her, also taught me that same way, and she was one of the early old school clicker trainers from the East Coast. There was a kind of East Coast/West Coast rivalry going on in the clicker training where early on, or at least I'm led to understand, I was a few years later, or I'll just say that there were people who replaced their methods, people that called themselves crossover trainers, who replaced things they did piecemeal, one at a time. I don't think this one works so I'm going to do this instead. Oh, this works better, oh, this is really great. Then there are people because they hear about a new system throw out everything they did before and try to put in the new fancy positive system that they're learning. I think when people have the courage to say, I'm just going to try this little piece and see how it goes, and they put in their system and they go, oh, I think I like this, this is pretty good, I'm going to investigate some other stuff, I'm going to try something new. I think from there comes the innovation. At least in my world, in the people who have been around me to influence me, there haven't been a ton of people doing that. So when I see that that really stands out to me. I fully admire it. I think Grisha did that when she just said, “I'm just going to see what happens when we do this.” I think Denise does that all the time. She's not beholden to the world of some _____ (59:27) training that says this is how you do it. She says, “Let's find out.” And I look up to anybody who can think independently, try stuff on their own, and just kind of stand their ground with what it is. Melissa Breau: I don't think you're giving yourself enough credit. I think that's exactly what you've done with The Play Way, is take a look and do something totally different. Amy Cook: Well, it's really what I'm trying to do. It's what I'm trying to do. I don't know that I bravely strike out so well, but I'm trying to because you know, we have to see things new ways, or we have to explore. If there's some other way people do it in some other traditions don't be afraid. If you're good enough at what you do, if you're sensitive enough with your learner, if you really are sure that you're not going to cause harm it's okay. It's okay to give a cookie for the wrong behavior, right, to use that again, because you're not causing any harm, so try and _____ (1:00:19). So that's I think where innovation will be found, and I think we get a little stuck, we're a little rutty a little bit in some positive training circles and some pet training circles, and I think it's time to see what…not to throw out things, but to enrich them with new experiences and new things from other thinkers. I don't know if I'm headed there but that's what I think about a lot. So thank you for that but I don't accept it. I reject your compliment and insert some self-deprecation of my own. You can't get me. I refuse. Melissa Breau: Well, I'm going to tell you that I think it anyway and you can choose to accept it or not. But they were sincerely given. Amy Cook: Thank you so much. Thank you very much. Melissa Breau: Well, thank you for coming on, Amy. I really appreciate you taking some time to chat. I know that you weren't feeling well earlier this week, so I'm glad we managed to reschedule and get this in there. Amy Cook: Thank you for your patience. I hope I don't sound too husky, I'm not extra sexy, I'm back to nerdy, but I had no voice _____ (1:01:28). I'm telling you people, I hope you understood everything, I didn't cut out. Melissa Breau: Well, thank you for coming on and thanks to all of our listeners for tuning in. We will be back in two weeks with Julie Flannery to talk about Rally-FrEe, and if you haven't already please subscribe to the podcast. You can do that in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice and you'll have the next episode of our podcast automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzi for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty free by bensound.com. The track featured here is called Buddy. Audio editing provided by Chris Lang, and transcription written by CLK Transcription Services. Thanks again for tuning in and happy training. CREDITS: Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzi for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty-free by BenSound.com; the track featured here is called “Buddy.” Audio editing provided by Chris Lang and transcription written by CLK Transcription Services. Thanks again for tuning in -- and happy training!

SHOW NOTES:  Summary: Julie Symons has been involved in dog sports for over 20 years. She's competed in flyball, conformation, agility, obedience, herding, tracking and nosework. One of Julie's favorite things is a versatile team! Her first Belgian Tervuren, Rival, was the first of his breed to finish his championship in conformation, obedience, and agility. Julie truly believes that participating in multiple sports is enriching to both person and dog and builds on that mutual partnership and trust. She also blogs at K9 Rivarly.com, for those of you out there like me, who just can't get enough of all this dog stuff. Links mentioned: K9Rivalry.com Next Episode:  To be released 4/28/2017, featuring Julie Symons.  TRANSCRIPTION: Melissa Breau: This is Melissa Breau, and you're listening to the Fenzi Dog Sports Podcast, brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy, an online school dedicated to providing high quality instruction for competitive dog sports, using only the most current and progressive training methods. Today we'll be talking to Julie Symons. Julie has been involved in dog sports for over 20 years. She's competed in flyball, conformation, agility, obedience, herding, tracking, and Nose work. One of Julie's favorite things is a versatile team. Her first Belgian Tervuren, Rival, was the first of his breed to finish his championship in conformation, obedience, and agility. Julie truly believes that participating in multiple sports is enriching to both the person and the dog and builds on that mutual partnership and trust. She also blogs at k9rivalry.com, for those of you, out there who, like me, just can't get enough of all this dog stuff. Hey, Julie. Welcome to the podcast. Julie Symons: Hi, Melissa. Thanks for having me. This is going to be a lot of fun. Melissa Breau:  Did I totally butcher the Belgian Tervuren there? Julie Symons: Not bad, but I forgot to remind you Rival is a she and not a he. Melissa Breau: Oh, well that makes a difference. Julie Symons: It does. Melissa Breau: So, to start us out, can you tell us a little bit about the dogs you have now? Julie Symons: I have my Belgian Tervuren, Savvy. She's nine years old, so she's my second Terv, and she is, I would not say semi-retirement, but I'm not training her in agility, or showing in agility or obedience anymore. We are focusing on nose work. She has her breed champion, her agility champion. Last year she got her UD and her Nose Work 3, and a couple of years ago she got a Tracking Dog Excellent, and that was really, a really exciting class to title in. It's hard to get into test, and it's challenging to find places to track and train, so she's a Versatility 3 dog, it's a title in AKC, so she's my first Versatility 3 dog, so that's her. My newest dog is a Belgian Malinois, sometimes also hard to pronounce. He is 17 months old, and I love him. I do prefer girl dogs, but I felt that he was a better addition with my current girl, and they do get along great, and he's a very friendly dog, not quite much phases him, so it's been really nice to find that in a Belgian, and it's just fun to train him, and he's different, so every dog I've had is different. He passed his Nose Work ORTs, Order Recognition Test, last fall, and we have his first Nose Work 1 trial next month. He's still a baby dog, you know. I don't like to push them. Nose work is a little different. I know he's ready for that, but I have years for him, really, you know, trialing and anything else, so I'm taking my time with that. Melissa Breau: It's kind of awesome that's he's a Belgian with the ability to kind of hang out. Julie Symons: Yeah. I actually, kind of, joked that he's like a golden in a Malinois suit, and he's gone to a couple of conformation shows, sometimes the only Malinois, and I never even, you know, he just didn't mind people touching him, examining him. I didn't even have to train that. I probably don't even want to admit that, but we'll see. He's a little older now. He might, you know, sometimes they go through different phases, and they go through different periods of time, and we, actually, have a trial next weekend that we're showing in conformation, so I do like to get dogs out early. That's the one thing I do like, conformation is something that you can get them into the ring early, if they're ready, and they can have some really fun time getting lots of steak and liver in the ring, so. Melissa Breau: Hey. Can't beat that. Julie Symons: No. No. Melissa Breau: So, I think, from reading your bio, and stuff, you started out in flyball, right? Julie Symons: Yeah, when I bought my first house, I was an adult, in my 20s, I wanted a dog, so one of the first things I did was I went and got a dog. I went to a shelter and I picked out Dreyfus, really cute dog, kind of a big, you know, 60 pound, 70 pound, you know, Collie mix. We called him the Dick Clark of dogs because he never aged. He lived to 16, almost 16, and except for his physical appearance, you know, he just looked as handsome and young as Dick Clark, I guess. You know, I don't really remember how I got into flyball. I do know that I started out in some local class where you just stood in the room for an hour, and you got one time up, you know, in such ways we don't train anymore. You just don't have your dog, you know, unfocused and sitting there for an hour, you know, while you wait your turn, and I think I started, I got into the Amber mixed breed, it's an American mixed breed organization registry. I don't even think they have it anymore, and I could get like, you know, obedience titles, so I must have been renting, you know, some other training buildings to practice, and there were some people there that were doing flyball, so I must have networked and met them because I once I started going to matches and some UKC trials, and you just started meeting more people, and I got on this flyball team, and it was neat because, you know, I learned how to teach my dog to hit a box and a ball would pop out. He was really good at flyball. He was a big dog, so he was able to jump the little hurdles fast, and he got a run in every heat, at the trials. I remember my team members weren't always happy that he got a run every time, but he was consistent, you know, and you want the time for the flyball, for the speed. I also learned, you know, like doing a Front Cross, you send your dog down one side and you do a Front Cross and you pick your dog up. So, you know, I do look back at that as, you know, I didn't stick with it, I still really like the sport, didn't stay with it, but it was my first time going to, driving a couple of hours to a trial and I remember thinking, well how can a dog stay in the car that long? What if they have to go to the bathroom? It's funny, when you look back and see, we were all newbies, we all started out somewhere, and you know, I remember taking pictures of my dog in the hotel room, like, wow, they can be in the hotel room, with us. So, I did that for about a year, went to about three or four tournaments for flyball. At that same time, I was starting to look for my purebred dogs, and I thought, oh, I like this. There wasn't as many opportunities for mix breeds back then, as it is today. I, actually, was looking at mixed breeds before I got Drac, my Malinois. I was so open to a mixed breed, it didn't really matter because you can do so much with them now, but back then you couldn't, so I definitely wanted a purebred dog. You know, Dreyfus was great, but he really was, you know, not a lot of drive, very distractible. Now I probably have a lot of skills now to deal with that, but you know, he liked to sniff the ground a lot, and he was not the easiest, you know, dog to train, you know, and for being new, you know, it was kind of hard, so I didn't do much with him, past that. So, I started researching, and I was looking for my next dog, and I saw the David Letterman Stupid Pet Tricks on, you know, one night I was watching TV and they had a Belgian Malinois. I really liked that breed, so I was still going to this local obedience class and I mentioned it, to the instructor, and he said, oh, you should really get a Belgian Tervuren instead, so I went to a show, in Syracuse, a conformation show, and I found when the Belgian Tervuren were on, and I loved them. They were so beautiful. I grew up with rust Collies, so they kind of reminded me of that a little bit, so it was so fortunate how I found my next dog. I contacted breeders. They didn't know me from anybody. They had a boy and a girl, and I got the girl, from Missouri, flown to me, sight unseen. Her name was Rival, and she changed my life, and she was just this high drive, just very biteable, bonded to me immediately, and then, I think, I did bring her to that same dog, pet, class trainer, for a little bit, but I didn't stay long because, you know, the methods were much different, and I heard about a local trainer, who had just got her OTCH, on a lab, so I started private lessons with her, and I never, ever, went back to obedience classes, a class environment. Then, so, when I got her, agility was really starting to hit the scene, so I got into an agility class right away. This is when AKC had one class, you would have the standard class, you would run in. We would drive like, you know, four hours, and you would go in the ring for 30 seconds, and you were done, for the day. So that's how I, kind of, went. Then, in obedience, of course, I was continuing with that, and private lessons, and then I added agility. I started, when she was young, I started tracking the pet class that I had gone to was run by some Schutzhund trainers, so I would meet with them, when they would do some tracking, and so I learned a little bit about tracking, but I didn't stay with them long. I would take a lot of breaks on and off from tracking, you know, and of course nose work wasn't around at that point, but that's how I, kind of, just, you know, I got the bug. I got the dog training bug with Dreyfus, got the purebred dog that I had more opportunities, and you know, she just made it so enjoyable and easy for me to pick up new sports, and so that's how I, kind of, you know, you get that first dog, you know… Melissa Breau: You dive in deep, and the world opens up to you. Julie Symons: Yep. Yep. Melissa Breau: So, at what point, I mean, it sounds like you were doing a lot of different things right out of the gate, with Rival. Did you immediately know that versatility was going to be something that was important to you? At what point was that like a conscious thing where that was like something you wanted to focus on? Julie Symons: You know, I do think it was because of her, and just training her in so many sports, her temperament and her drive were superb. She excelled at everything we did, and she was a great teacher. I mean I still consider myself a novice handler, at that time, and I really got addicted. I got addicted to dog training, and I know, any and all of it, so I just, you know, couldn't imagine just doing agility. I just enjoyed the cross training and just teaching such different skills, to my dog. I think I would get bored if I only did one, and I think that my dogs, the dogs I tend to get, to me, you know, I don't want to put human feelings on dogs, but I do think they enjoy the versatility too. I think they like the different skills and the different things they get to do. Melissa Breau: So, in retrospect, what are some of the benefits that you have seen, from competing in multiple sports, with each of your dogs? Julie Symons: Yeah. So, what I just mentioned, I do think there's a cross training aspect to it. I'm not just working on, you know, their muscles for running fast. I'm using their nose, and I'm asking for some precision in other sports, like obedience. It also gives them breaks, you know, instead of working one sport all the time, you know, they take a break from, maybe, some of the more strenuous running and jumping, and then they get to switch to something else. I found that training in the different sports, you just develop and bond and relationship that's different and maybe a little deeper because you have to learn different context of things, you're learning more skills, and it strengthens that relationship that you have, you know, you have this mutual understanding with each other, to go out and do these different sports, and that you have these, you know, cues and things that they understand, and it's just amazing to know that I have…because I train for sports, I don't normally train just to train. I've gotten a little bit more into doing some tricks, I think that's great for dogs, too, so just to think of all the ways I can teach my dog to do different things, and back to, you know, when I had Rival, she really showed me what was possible to do with a dog, and the possible bonds you can have. I just never thought you could do all of this with a dog, and I just think that's what made me like the versatility of it too, it's just a, kind of, challenge to try other sports, you know. So, when nose work came along, I did not need another dog sport, believe me, but her brother had started it, and I saw a video of it, didn't know much about it, and he passed away at a little bit of a young age, so I was, kind of, inspired to say, you know, in his honor I'm going to take this nose work class that I heard about Denise teaching, before Fenzi started, and she was actually in heat, or she was injured, or something, so like the timing was really good, so I used that, my dog is in heat or has a minor injury or it's winter, you know, I think of what else could I do with my dog because I can't do some of the other things, and that's, actually, how I got into nose work. So, you know, it just comes along at the right time, for you, with the dog that you have. Melissa Breau: So, I'd imagine that knowing now, at least, that that's something that's important to you, that you want to do a lot of different things with your dog, when you have a new puppy, which you've been through fairly recently, you might approach, kind of, those early days a little bit differently, do you want to talk a little bit about that? Julie Symons: Yeah. I think it is a little different, knowing what you're going to, you know, train your dog in and compete in, but it's really quite similar because a lot of the same skills that you need across all the sports, like you need your dog to be able to stay, you know, and sit or down, you really do, in every single sport. You need impulse control, you need them to, you know, wait for your cues. They need focus. They need recalls. You know, you just need all of that stuff, so that's what I just start building. I tend to train thoughtful dogs. That's good. I'm thinking like I want more like, almost out of control dogs, but I really don't. I do tend to train, I tend to teach dogs to be very thoughtful, and I do need to balance that with some of that little bit of edge that I do want from them as well. Let's see, what else? But I also, like, approach it by switching on and off. I'm not training every sport all the time, you know, nobody can do that, and even, since training in multiple sports is also a challenge in itself, I also, you know, have a busy day life, day job. I have, you know, a son. I have a husband, so it's hard to fit everything in. So, how I approach it is I just, sometimes, focus on one thing a month, like I need to teach my dog to weave, so just that month, it happened to be summer, I'm going to just, every day, go out there and train my dogs, a couple of times a day, on the weave poles, and I don't really have time for anything else, but that's okay. That's just what I'm doing that month. Then, the next month, I might focus on, I don't know, getting out to new places for obedience, and then the next month I may focus on teeter, you know, get my dog on the teeter and everything, so it just, I don't really have a good, you know, plan around it. I don't write it down, or anything, I just make sure I train my dog on something, most days, and I usually have a focus, so a lot of it depends on what I might be starting to want to compete in first. Melissa Breau: That makes a lot of sense. Julie Symons: Yeah. Yeah. Because you can't, if you try to sit there and say, you'll get overwhelmed. You'll get overwhelmed if you're going to try to say, I want to do all of these six sports, oh my gosh, you know, and you know, I kind of move on. Once Savvy got her MACH 2 to, you now, I didn't need to get a MACH 3 or 4, so I just decided, she could have still kept running, she was seven or eight, or something, but I just had other things to do. I had to go work on her, you know, TDX or her, whatever, nose work, now. I am very goal oriented to the title, so that kind of drives me in the direction that I train. Melissa Breau: Yeah. I feel like that's something that I've definitely struggled with, so it's interesting to hear, kind of, pick one focus. Now, at least, for me, and for my dog, I found that she doesn't always retain the information long term, if we, kind of, leave it alone and come back to it, you know, like months later. Is that something you've had to deal with at all? Julie Symons: Oh, she doesn't. Well, no. Well I do think it depends on what it is, if you hadn't, you know, taught something to kind of fluency, then you're going to lose a little bit, but I also think they remember some of it, at least, so there are some things that I think you do need to, kind of, not drop off, you know, for too long. It depends, you know, it might be stays or recalls, obviously. I do think that, most part, they do remember, so, in that case, if they don't, then, you know, you might have to just decide what's more important that you need, and keep that in because, you know, I could do more than just my weave pole training that month. Obviously, I'm in the catch, and I'll do stays with my dogs. I'll put them in a sit stay, while I'm making something, or you know, sometimes it just takes one minute of training, just one to three minutes of training, a day. Everybody can find that. I started to train a little bit before I went to work. Lately, with Drac, I train when I get home. He is so pumped and into me, that's when I need to train him because he's a young, adolescent boy. He, kind of, like doesn't have a lot of stamina to focus, so I've actually had some really, really wonderful sessions, and it just might be as much as i can train with a handful of food and that's all I do. Now he's 17 months old, and he is like, oh my gosh, I'm like, he is so focused on me, like that didn't happen months ago. So then, because I have that focus and maturity, I'm able to, kind of, progress a little bit further or teach him something new, so it's, kind of, give and take, and you're right, I know some of the stuff I started with him, like backup, I was teaching him backing up, he doesn't know that at all, anymore, so, yeah, that is something that I did lose, but that's not as important to me, to backup, away from me, so I've got to get back to that because I do think it's useful, in some areas, but yeah, I did lose that one on him, by the way. I think what happened was, I was teaching him some other things, like a fold back down, or something else, and he kept backing up, and it wasn't reinforcing it because I was working on something else, so I think that's why I lost it because of the reinforcement, you know, I extinguished it. I extinguished his backing up, accidentally. Melissa Breau: Yeah. Do you have any advice, I guess, for other trainers, who maybe want to intentionally train for multiple sports or approach the idea that if they have a dog, they want to compete in multiple sports, either for getting started or just, kind of, for balancing things? Julie Symons:Yeah. Yes, I do. So, a little bit, what I mentioned earlier, I think if you just don't get overwhelmed and realize that you aren't trialling your new dog, right away. It really is going to be years before you really get them in the ring, and I know, like it's almost like you put a lot of time in those first, you know, two to four years. I didn't bring in my, you know, Rival, who got an Obedience Champion, she didn't enter the obedience ring until she was five. She could have gone in a little earlier, but I wasn't ready, and once I got in and I realized we were ready, but you have time to bring your dog in because once you get them into that ring, at that time, it goes fast after that, so you take that time, you know, I would say two to four years, depending on the sport, and once you get to that point, then it goes really fast. If you start too early, I think you're just setting yourself up to have too many gaps in your training, and then you're going to, probably, struggle, and then it's going to take you longer, so I would, you know, number one, not worry about time. It will come, when ready. Also, a foundation, like I said earlier, just work on the foundation, work on things that you're going to want anyway, you're going to want to save the recalls, the focus, the impulse control, that's going to apply to every sport, and something that's near and dear to Denise's heart, actually, is personal play. I've had to learn that more so in the last nine years because my first dog, Rival, was just naturally into me. I was her world. Honestly, I didn't do anything, to make that happen, and when I got Savvy, and now I have Drac, other things in the world are more interesting, to them, than me, so I have had to think about, wait, I've got to build that personal bond, that personal play, not relying on food so much, or toys, and if you can focus on that, and you can have a dog that's totally into you, that's half the battle, and then the rest is just skill training, it's just skills, and we all know how to trail skills. Seriously, we have all the classes and the tools and the, you know, video examples, and the people's blogs, we all know how to teach skills, some are harder than others, don't get me wrong, but if you have a dog that you have built up this wonderful relationship with, I mean we all have wonderful relationships with our dogs. I'm not even saying that. It's from an interaction, it's a kind of bonded, you know, interaction that you need to build for that personal play around other, you know, interesting things, in the environment. So, I would say, and I had to, really, grow in that area, for me, and I really bring that into my training more where, to me, it's more important that I'm going to interact and play with my dog then teach Drac to backup again. To me I'd rather need him to really want to come to me and to play with me, so that's the things that I would have people to focus on.  Melissa Breau: You know, I've seen, I don't remember if you shared a video or if it's on your Fenzi bio, or what, I mean, I've seen some of your competition videos, and I would never guess that personal play is something you've struggled with. I saw you in between exercises, and on one of the videos you got down on the floor, and you were like very happy to be there. It was really nice. I mean it was… Julie Symons: Yeah. I mean I think one of the videos might have been Rival, and I did make a clip, once, for somebody, to show what I did between the rings with Savvy, and she's a very distractible dog. She'll know the things in her environment, which is typical of Belgians, too, they're very aware of people, there are some people they just don't like, and so I've really had to work on that, so thank you, for that compliment. To be honest, that is why Savvy didn't enter the obedience ring for a while. I can't remember how old she was, when she actually went in for her Novice, CD, but she actually went in for her, you know, Novice CD but she got her Utility title at eight, last year, because I got her, when my son was young, he was only two, so I just didn't have the time. I had three dogs, and I had my older dog, Dreyfus. I had, did I have three dogs? Yeah. Savvy. I still had Rival and Dreyfus, when I got Savvy, and I just couldn't do it all. I, actually, realized I cannot do it all right now, and that was okay. That was okay. If I put pressure on myself then it's just going to carry over to my dogs, so I appreciate that compliment. Melissa Breau: So, you got there, and you got there at your own pace, and you got beautiful results. Julie Symons: Yes. Yes. Melissa Breau: So, I know that, in addition to teaching for FDSA, you also teach in person, right? Julie Symons: Yeah. So, actually, back in the late ‘90s, I started teaching agility, when I was doing well with my dog and it was still new, in this area. I found, you know, that I enjoyed that. I enjoyed helping people, and I was in a dog club, so I started teaching through a dog club, and then, eventually, when we bought our current property, the first thing we built, you know, we have seven open acres, and the first thing we did is we built a hundred by hundred, you know, fence, so the property was, the house hadn't even started building, and I had this hundred by hundred, you know, fence. Melissa Breau: Priorities. Julie Symons: Yeah. Priorities because it was a lot of deer, and everything, and when I first started, without the fence, you know, a couple of dogs to take off, and that was really scary, so we got the fence up. So, I started teaching on my own. That was probably back in 2000, in 1999 or the year 2000, and then I had my son in 2004, and I tried to keep up, you know, and I tried to keep teaching, and I was still showing Rival actively, finishing up some of her big titles. I just had to back off a bit, so I stopped teaching and took a break from that, and then when I got Savvy into nose work, and she got her nose work 1 title, I immediately was like, “I'm going to start teaching.” I just wanted to get that first title and then start bringing it to my area because I could tell it was an up and coming sport. You know, everybody just didn't AKC anymore, you know, there's Barn Hunt, there's a lot of other venues of dog sports. It was about the same time that I started teaching at FDSA, and so it's gone very well, locally. People love the in-person classes because they can have them, you know, from me, so they're spoiled a little bit. So, yeah, really, actually this morning I hosted a little match for some students, and myself, trialing next month, so it's a lot of work. I rented a building and we had a gym area and another room to do hides. It keeps me busy. Melissa Breau: So, just for anybody who may happen to be local to you, do you want to share, kind of, what area you're in? Julie Symons: Yeah. I'm south of Rochester, New York. I'm near the thruway, so I'm actually equal distance between Syracuse and Buffalo. I do have some people that, you know, come about an hour away, but most are local. Ironically some of them are just like within five minutes of my neighborhood, so we all live pretty close, and Rochester, New York, we've heard this for years, we have a really, really big, strong dog community, some really talented people, a lot of people invested in training, you know, competitively with our dogs. You know, I have people, in my classes that, you know, I have few pet people that started with me, people who hadn't done much of the competitive sports, so I have a mix, but I do have a lot of people who have some dog training experience, and it was cool that they, these are people who do Schutzhund, you know, obedience, rally, agility, like they're interested in nose work. Their dogs may be getting a little older, they're retiring form a sport, or they're young dogs who are coming up, and it's, really, taught me that it applies, or interests, a wide range of people, you know, it's not just for certain, you know, demographic of dogs and handlers, so and it's growing. I, actually, can barely keep up. I, just recently, made a job change to go to part time. I work at Xerox. I've been there my whole career, out of college, and I just decided that I want more time to myself, as well as for dog training. So, yeah, I'm actually really excited about that. The hours will change in a couple of weeks, so we'll see. I'm not really sure if I'll get more time to myself. I may just get busier, so we'll see, but I did find that that's what I love. That's what I was passionate about. That's where I was creative, and that wasn't the side of my life that I wanted to cut back on, so I just sat back, looked at our situation, and said, “I can do this,” so, yeah. Melissa Breau: Now you, kind of, mentioned AKC in there, and some of the other Nose work programs, but I know there's been a lot of buzz about the fact that AKC has just recently added a scent work program, right? Julie Symons: Yeah, and that timing came quite at a good time, for some of my latest decisions. Yeah. So AKC rolled out a nose work program, they call it scent work, and you know, I think we all expected it to come at some point. I think a lot of people do like to show in AKC. AKC, you know, is a big organization, and probably going to be able to put on more readily available trials for people to enter. I love the other nose work programs. I think they've done a really great job with them, and I will still trial in them, but there's people that are in some isolated areas that are too far for trials, there's a long waitlist, so I think the AKC program, the reason I'm excited about it, is I think it will get more people into the sport because I really have found that nose work just does something to the dogs. It does something to the handlers. It's not just the dogs that love because they get to use their nose, but just the people, to see their dogs be these little detection dogs, and there's something about it. I haven't quite pinpointed it. I think people like tracking, but tracking, sometimes, is hard to find the field, and there's also limited, you know, tracking tests. There's just something about it, and I think it's just people seeing their dogs, instead of us telling our dogs not to sniff and smell things, we're letting them sniff and smell things, and they're doing it with purpose, and they're doing it, you know, it's a job. I think dogs are, kind of, bred to do jobs, and it's a job that comes naturally to them, but there's still practicing and training and skills that you've got to train to actually compete in that sport, so it's just been something that I'm really excited about with the AKC program. Then they added this handler discrimination class, which existed in a UKC program, so I'm not as familiar with that, from a nose work context, but I've done some articles for 20 years, and you know, I never really had a lot of problem with that, but I understand that it is challenging. I think it's just more of a mindset of people realizing our dogs really can pick up the smallest amount of smell, and it's not even a small amount of smell. I mean we're putting our strong odor on it, compared to anything else, in the environment, so there's a discrimination that they're making between our smell and the steward's, you know, smell, from touching the articles, and in this new AKC program, you actually have your glove, or your sock, that you, you know, scent, and then they're going to have another  person's scented, you know, item in one of the other boxes to start, so it's going to be discrimination, and you know, it's just like with anything,  you train your dog, what was reinforced, what is the value, so I teach my scent is to be reinforced, there's a value to that, and to me discrimination is less of an issue than somebody going, oh, I like the steward's hand smell better. It's just more that they're stressed, or they just pick up any article, so I think that the discrimination part, to me, you know, is very trainable, and it's easy to teach a dog, just like with nose work, we teach our dog these odors, you know, Birch, Anise, Clove, these are odors that we've taught you that are reinforced. Any other novel owner, whether it's a piece of bread or some meat or a toy, or even animal droppings, you know, they may find that self-reinforcing, but if they have the drive for the odors that we have reinforced, then they will seek those out over everything, so. So, yeah, it is pretty exciting, with the AKC program.  Melissa Breau: My understanding is that you're going to be a judge, right?  Julie Symons: Yeah. I did apply, to be a judge, and I was approved. They still have to rollout… Melissa Breau: Congrats. Julie Symons: Yeah. Thanks. I've never entered that arena, of judging, so they still have to rollout like some online training and a test to take, so we're waiting for that to come out, and it's exciting because somebody, locally, is taking nose work classes with me. She said, oh, we're thinking of getting this added to our national breed, coming up, and she said, I know somebody who's a judge, so it will be very nice that I could, you know, maybe for some of the local breed shows, you know, I'll be available to help with that, to get it started. Melissa Breau: Right. Right. Now I want to change gears a little bit because I know you also do the obedience games class, at FDSA, even though it's not in the schedule, until October, I wanted to make sure we had a chance to talk a little bit about some of the obedience stuff you teach too, so do you want to just tell us a little bit about the concept for the class and kind of what you cover? Julie Symons: Yeah. Thanks. Thanks for bringing that up. It's been a very fun class topic for me. It's called obedience games, and we added a starter version, which I just ended last term because I found that my first version got advanced pretty quickly, so I thought, wow, I can really even break this down more, and that was a real hit. It, kind of, you know, took a life of its own, and it was just real exciting. It's about, you know, being informal but still being clear to your dog. It's about adding more movement and less, you know, static, stationary behaviors, and less fiddling with, you know, precision and the front, so we're not even doing fronts, so I'm like, we're not doing fronts in this class. Every time your dog comes here, you're going to pass a treat between your legs, and then that just builds this like, you know, center of position, and your dog is going to continue with speed, and they're just going to know, you know, to like go through you, you know. We're not going to worry about errors. I really emphasize that because we all, you know, we all get a little frustrated or disappointed, and I'm really, really impressed, early on, there are no errors, we're just training, we're learning, we're finding out what gaps we have. We're getting information from our dogs. There's no reason to be, you know, upset, or bothered and we don't want our dogs to ever, you know, we don't want them to have stress, in this game, and I think that I'm seeing some people give me comments that they're seeing some people who took my very first obedience game class, last fall, they said, wow, I very rarely still use the games, it's really helped my dog in the ring. I think it's more that it's helped the human, you know, it's helping humans to, kind of, maybe loosen up a little bit. One of the things that I really was, you know, enforcing was, you know, these daily games that if you just work, just a few minutes, like I said earlier, a few minutes a day, with your dog, there's just something about that because I can go days and days without training my dog, I just get busy, you know, but instead, if I just find one little, kind of, action packed, high reinforcing game, to play with my dog, which with a purpose for obedience skills, for example, it just pays off with even your recalls. It pays off with your dog, you know, your personal bond, and I try to do some personal toy and play before every session. I encourage that for the students to do. Then, because we're all so busy, I'm busy, you know, you can find a couple of minutes every day, and it really will add up and you will find your dog actually learned skills, and they want to work with you more because they look forward to that time of the day, you know, that you train with them. Another thing is, you know, these scores will come eventually. When I entered, you know, my OTCH dog in her first trial, you know, we did get good scores, but they weren't going to be scores that got me placed to get the OTCH points, but I was just in the novice class. I didn't need those points yet, so I wanted her to go in there and know her job and be happy. I just, kind of, worked at those point deductions that I got, I just worked to clean them up, over time. I just said, oh, that's where our gap is. I'm going to clean it up, and I'm going to lose less points, in that exercise, and that's how I got to the higher scores, but not until I was, you know, further along, in my obedience competition trial because you've got to get that experience, and I just think I was trying to bring that thought process to the games classes.  Melissa Breau: Yeah. I mean, I think that even the mindset, right, from competition to thinking about it all as a game, for the person, is such a difference, and it just brings a more relaxed structure and more fun. Julie Symons: Yeah. Yeah. It has. I have been pleasantly surprised with how well it's been received, and I might even have to come up with like a middle level now. We'll see how I can plan that. And what I love about it, too, is it complements all the great skills classes that we have, at the Academy, so people can be working on their retrieves, and you know, whatever, you know, all these other little skilled areas, you know, separately but at the same time, but separate from the quick little three minute games sessions because I'm doing that with Drac. Believe me, I'm working on, you know, his retrieve and his hold, and things like that. I'm working those heavy-duty skill things off on the side as well, so. Melissa Breau: So, to kind of round things out, I want to ask you the three questions that we've asked everybody so far, who's come on the show. Julie Symons: Okay. Melissa Breau: So, first, what's the dog related accomplishment that you are proudest of? Julie Symons: Okay. It has to be just, you know, Rival, my first Terv, she became the first champion OTCH MACH Terv, and just getting that OTCH, actually, in itself, was just a thrill because I just went from the Novice A classes to OTCH, and I learned so much, from her. I, also, had my son, he was a couple of years at that time, and I just needed a couple of more points, and I was going in the ring, and we weren't doing well. I was no longer training in the open class because my dog was now older, she was ten, or nine, or ten, and there was a lot of jumping. I couldn't even train. I didn't have time to train a lot, and I didn't have time to maintain that, so one of my friends, and trainers, said, “You really need to enter the open class.” On a whim, I entered the one day that had spots left, in open, and we went in the ring, and I said, oh, I'm never going to finish my OTCH. I'm never going to finish my OTCH in an open class because all of the points are in utility and you know the scores, people get such great, you know, scores, you know, and it's so hard to get the points in open, if you look at the point schedule. We went in the ring, and that's the one that I show a lot, it's in my obedience games intro, and we went into the ring, and I love to watch it. I watch it, if I'm down, or something, because just I went in there and I think that's a lot, what I process my obedience games class with because I went in the ring not expecting much, and my dog was getting older, I knew she was going to be retired soon, and I have a son. I just can't keep up with everything. I just thought, someday I'm not going to be able to go in the ring with this dog, and so I'm going to go in there and we got like a 199, you know, first place, we got her OTCH from that run. Melissa Breau: That's awesome. Julie Symons: Yeah. Then, you know, to be a first in something is so hard, in a breed like the Belgian Tervuren. Now the MACH was a relatively newer title, so some fabulous dogs, before, obviously didn't have that chance, but yeah, I am, we are the first Belgian Tervuren champion OTCH MACH, so that was very, yeah, special to me. Melissa Breau: That's awesome. Julie Symons: To be honest, that dog was so deserving of that, so. Melissa Breau: Yeah. She really sounds like something special. Julie Symons: Yes. Melissa Breau: So, the second question, I like to ask everybody, and I think this is, honestly, my favorite question of the whole podcast, is what is the best piece of training advice that you have ever heard? Julie Symons: Yeah. I was looking forward to this one. I thought a lot about it, and you know, we all get such great training advice, but there's two that really stuck out to me, and they've been pretty recent ones. I absolutely love Amy Cook's, in one of her classes, but she also said it at camp last year, that, “Every time you train your dog, you're teaching them how to feel,” and that just, you know, goes back to some of my outlook on training, also, is just like that's why I don't want to, if I stress them out, that's how they're going to feel about training, so it's just such a powerful but simple statement that she made, and I really embrace that, and share that as often as I can with my students. Melissa Breau: That's great. Julie Symons: I have a second one too. Can I have two? Melissa Breau: Absolutely. Julie Symons: Okay. Another one that I really liked was one from Bob Bailey. It was, you know, he's big on clicker training, shaping, and he said something that, also, really resonated with me, with, “You better made a decision because the next one is right around the corner.” So, if you think about when you're training a dog, and you're like, oh, was that the right criteria. Was it right enough? You know, your next decision is right up on you. You have to make a decision, and it might not be the best decision, and it might not even be the right decision. You probably made a wrong decision, but you have to make a decision on whether you're going to click something or reinforce something because the next decision is right around the corner, and it's okay, you look at all of us trainers, our timing is off. We accidently click something that we weren't supposed to. Look how resilient our dogs are. They recover. You know, they're fine. So, I just really like that because I think some people, we freeze up, we freeze up in the training, when we don't know what to do. That's okay. Do something because you're going to have to make another decision, like, another second later, so I really pulled that off of a DVD that I was listening to, and I never wrote it down, exactly what he said, but I just remember that concept. So those are my two. Melissa Breau: That's awesome. So, for our last one, who is somebody else, in the dog world, that you look up to? Julie Symons: So, this is, of course, the hardest question, I think, everybody has had, and I thought about it also, so this is obviously tough because I've learned so much from people, local and afar, because I work in so many different sport areas, you know, it just multiplies how many people I've worked with. I think I'm going to say that I do look up to anyone that thinks out of the box and is willing to try something different. I just think that, sometimes, we all get, kind of, stuck in an area, in a way that we do things, and I think somebody who is willing to, you know, just, kind of, maybe work outside their comfort level or just try something new, I just really respect that because you're not going to grow if don't do that. You're not going to change something, and of course, my learning has exponentially grown, being a part of FDSA. I think the whole base of the FDSA instructors are amazing, so I do look up to the Academy and the instructors that we offer such a diversity of people and topics. It's not just performance now, it's from, you know, your mind to cooperative care to competition. There is one name I will mention, if I have to mention one name, if I have time, is I will never forget one person that I worked with, with Rival, my very first high drive performance dog, her name was Patty Hatfield. She's from Florida, and she had a wonderful Malinois named Lily, who was on the US agility world team, back in the ‘90s, and she would come to our area frequently for agility seminars, and she helped me, so much, with how I interacted with my dog. I am a pretty high drive person, myself, high energy, actually, high energy, and so with my dog, so she taught me how to, you know, adjust my energy levels, when she needed to be calmer. She also does just love her dog. She had a great bond with her dog, Lily. She just loved her. She would talk about, you know, when she went home, from a seminar, I know I'm going to do all the wrong things, and I'm going to go hug my dog and just get all crazy when I see her, but you're not supposed to do that because back in that day, you were supposed to ignore your dog, when you got home. You were supposed to not let them run up the stairs, ahead of you. You're not supposed to let your dogs on the furniture, or you're supposed to eat before they ate, all these little, you know, control things that were told to you, and I always remember, because I, kind of, did that stuff too, but I thought, “I'm not going to tell anybody,” but I let my dog up, on my bed, and let my dog run up the stairs, but I always thought I was doing something wrong because that was what you were told back then. I just remember her just saying, “I don't care what I'm doing, or if I'm doing the wrong thing. I love my dog, and I just got to be excited when I see her, when I come home,” so I always, kind of, still just think of those interactions that I had with her, with the advice she gave me. She had a Malinois, and again, I just love the Belgian breeds, and I could relate to that as well, so. Melissa Breau: Thanks, so much, for coming on the podcast, Julie, and thanks, to our listeners, for tuning in. We'll be back in two weeks with Amy Cook, to talk about using play to help dogs cope with fear and reactivity. If you haven't already, subscribe to our podcast in iTunes or the podcast app, of your choice, to have our next episode automatically download to your phone as soon as it becomes available. CREDITS: Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzi for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty-free by BenSound.com; the track featured here is called “Buddy.” Audio editing provided by Chris Lang and transcription written by CLK Transcription Services. Thanks again for tuning in -- and happy training!

SHOW NOTES: Summary: Sue Ailsby has done a little bit of everything when it comes to dog sports -- from water trials to herding -- but is particularly well known for her Levels training program. In this episode we talk about how that program came to be, and what she's learned in over 50 years training dogs. Next Episode:  To be released 3/31/2017, featuring Stacy Barnett. TRANSCRIPTION: Melissa Breau: This is Melissa Breau and you're listening to the Fenzi Dog Sports podcast brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy, an online school dedicated to providing high-quality instruction for competitive dog sports, using only the most current and progressive training methods. Registration opens next Wednesday for the April session of classes, including obedience, rally, nosework, and agility. So head over to the website, fenzidogsportsacademy.com and take a look. Today we'll be talking to Sue Ailsby. Sue is a retired obedience and conformation judge. She has been in dogs for more than 54 years, having owned and trained everything from Chihuahuas to Portuguese Water Dogs. She has trained for virtually every legitimate dog sport including, and guys this is quite the list, sled racing, schutzhund, hunting, tracking, scent hurdle and flyball, carting, packing, agility, water trials and herding, rally, conformation, obedience, and nosework. Sue's an internationally known speaker on the subject of humane training for dogs and llamas, and has been fundamental in introducing clicker training to Canada. Welcome to the podcast, Sue. Sue Ailsby: Thank you very much, Melissa. Melissa Breau: I'm super excited to be talking to you today and I would love to start off just by having you tell us a little bit about the dogs that you have now and what you're working on with them. Sue Ailsby: Okay. My oldest dog right now is Stitch. She's 12 years old, and what I'm working on with her is mostly going outside to rescue her because she forgets how to come back in through a dog door. She has achieved the lofty status of being able to walk around all day with a smile on her face wondering what's happening. And my second dog is Sin, and these are both Portuguese Water Dogs, by the way. Sin is six and I'm working on her, let me think, she's a champion, she's finished all her drafting titles. We're still working on high-level water trials. She's starting nosework. We've done work in studies for medical detection and now I'm looking at competition nosework. We've done agility. We're looking at tracking. Getting ready for some obedience trials. We've done rally with her. Yeah, etcetera. Melissa Breau: Little bit of everything, huh? Sue Ailsby: Yeah. Melissa Breau: I know that you mentioned you've done a lot of different breeds and now you've two Portuguese Water Dogs. Do you think you're sticking with the breed for a while? Sue Ailsby: Oh, right now she's six. I'm starting to think about another dog, and I had 17 generations of Giant Schnauzers, I so miss my giant Schnauzers. But I'm having such a good time with water trials that I'm really torn, do I get another Giant…because I'm old and it will probably be my last big dog. But then I wouldn't be able to do water trials with that one, so I have no idea. Melissa Breau: So we'll all be on pins and needles to wait and see. Sue Ailsby: Yeah. No less than my husband, believe me. Melissa Breau: We talked a little bit in the intro about the fact that you've been in dogs for quite a while, so I'd love to get your take on what you've seen during that time and kind of how your training has changed and what your training philosophy is if you were to look at it today. Sue Ailsby: Oh, I was tough. I started when I was 11. The only way to train was tough. I used to go to a jeweler to get choke chains made for my Chihuahuas because they didn't sell choke chains small enough for them. And now I look back and think, you needed a choke chain to train a Chihuahua? When all there is, is a hammer, everything looks like a nail and you do what you're told. And I was very good at it, too. But one day, actually it was in conformation. I got a Best in Show on a Giant Schnauzer and we were waiting for the photographer, and to get a Best in Show you have to look brave and confident and noble and like you're having a really good time. We're waiting for the photographer after we got the Best and she was getting a little fussy and I just turned and said, “Sit,” and she turned into an obedience dog. She half closed her eyes and she pulled her neck in and she kind of slowly sat down, and I thought, I'm not ever doing that to another dog. Melissa Breau: Wow, so it was really that one moment, huh? Sue Ailsby: Yeah. If I can't do obedience any more, then I won't do obedience any more. But I'm just not making another dog feel like that when I can make her feel glorious to do conformation, and so I quit completely. And then after about six months I started hearing about this weird new cookie pushing sort of thing that was coming in, and I went to Toronto on a plane to talk to a guy who was doing some of this. And he didn't really know what he was doing, but he got me started and gave me a couple of other leads, and then I went down to the states to see a seminar of a guy. And it wasn't a ‘how to do this' seminar, it was a ‘let's repair the damage' seminar. So I didn't get to hear why he was doing what he was doing, but he'd bring somebody up with a dog that was having a problem and then I'd watch them fix the problem, and from that I kind of started extrapolating what his rules were about how he was doing this and kind of went from there and learned more. And I think about things that I saw before where the dog was actually thinking and how astonished I was. I had a puppy…I heard about this new thing where you teach the dog to ring a bell to go outside. Oh, what an interesting idea. So I got a bell. Now I've got a bell, how do I teach the dog to ring the bell? And just maybe because I'd been doing conformation that morning, certainly not because that's the way any other obedience trainer would have done it, I smeared some wiener on the bell and I hung the bell down, and she started licking the wiener off the bell. And when she licked it hard enough she made the bell ring, I got all excited, like, “Oh, what a good girl. Good job. Wow, are you ever great.” And I put more wiener on the bell and hung it down again and she licked it again and made it ring and I'm, “Oh, what a good girl. Wow.” And put more wiener on the bell and put it down. I have no idea whether this is going to work or not. I put the bell down again and she didn't lick the wiener off. She looked at the bell and she looked at me…this is a five-month-old puppy. Looked at the bell, looked at me, looked at the bell, and then she pulled her great big Giant Schnauzer paw back and whacked that bell into next Tuesday. And then she looked at me. Is that what you wanted? You wanted me to ring the bell? And that kind of a leap from the dog was completely not part of the training in those days. There was nothing in training that could explain the dog having a brain like that. And those things were so precious, and now I see them all the time. It's wonderful. Melissa Breau: It makes you feel totally different about your training relationship and about your dog. Sue Ailsby: Absolutely. It was all about anger. The dog is doing this deliberately, the dog is defying me, the dog must learn to obey. Melissa Breau: Right. Sue Ailsby: The first dog I trained, it wasn't clicker training but it was without corrections, was a Giant Schnauzer and I got her to about eight months and it was glorious. And we were getting ready for an obedience trial and I'm heeling along, and part of my brain is saying, isn't this glorious? She's never had a correction and she's heeling. And the other half of my brain is saying, but she doesn't know she has to. And then the first part, why should she know she has to? She knows she wants to, but she doesn't know she has to. I'm going to put a choke chain on her and I'm just going to tell her that she has to. This is not negotiable. You don't want to put a choke chain on her, you've spent eight months telling her how to enjoy this and you're going to put a choke chain on her? I can handle it. So I put the choker on and we're heeling along, and she just glanced away for a second. She didn't quit or anything, she just, her eyes flicked away and I gave her a little pop on the chain, and my good angel is screaming, “Don't. Don't do that.” And the bad angel is, “She can't refuse.” And she kind of... “What was that?” And I say okay, so we go on and a few minutes later her eyes flick away again and I give her another shot with the collar. And she stopped and the angel is saying, “Now you've done it. You've ruined it completely. Why don't you just go shoot yourself right now.” And the devil is saying, “I could just give her another shot. She can't just stop.” So she stood there for a minute with a confused look on her face and then her ears came up and her tail came up and she started wagging her tail and she got all excited, and she ran around and started heeling on my right side. Melissa Breau: Okay. Sue Ailsby: Okay? Heeling is good, I like to heel. Heeling on the left just became dangerous, let's do it on the right side instead. And I just sank to the floor and I'm sobbing and apologizing. That was the last time I ever had a choke chain on a dog. Melissa Breau: She showed you. Sue Ailsby: She sure did. Oh my goodness. And what an amazing solution. Melissa Breau: Absolutely. She was brilliant. Sue Ailsby: Yes. Melissa Breau: That's so funny. Sue Ailsby: And yet still the devil was screaming, “She's refusing. She can't do that.” Fortunately it got smaller and smaller as we went along. I didn't listen to it any more. So training has changed amazingly. Melissa Breau: Yeah. Hopefully almost entirely for the better. Sue Ailsby: Entirely for the better, yes. Melissa Breau: Yeah. Yeah. So I want to shift gears a little bit and talk about some of the classes coming up through the Fenzi Academy because I know that you're offering the levels program, and this will air just before registration for that, so do you want to just explain for those who aren't familiar with it what levels training is and what the program is? Sue Ailsby: I've been training classes since I was 16. You get to the point where I'm tired of teaching people off the street. Not that they don't need teaching, not that they're not nice people, but I started doing them in private lessons and I was doing classes for competition people. And I noticed that my competition people were learning to do the competition behaviors but they weren't learning to handle their dogs. They weren't learning the tools to teach their dogs, which is the same way I learned to ride. I took riding lessons for years and I learned a great deal about riding. I'm a pretty awesome rider, by golly, but I don't know anything about horses. As long as I'm on top of them, I'm good to go, but on the ground I know nothing. And that to me is an extreme failure of instruction, because surely knowing the animal is the bottom line. So I started noticing that my competition students, most of them didn't have the bottom line. And when I'm training, I'm looking at the behaviors that the dog needs to know in everything. The dog needs to know how to be in a crate comfortably. There is nothing worse than trying to go on a six-hour drive to get to some competition and the dog is screaming in the crate the whole way. That's bad for the handler and it's also bad for the dog because when she gets there she's all upset and she's tired, so nobody's going to do well. I had students with competition dogs who were never off leash unless they were in the ring because the people didn't have a decent recall, and to me a decent recall is a foundation and oh, foundations. So I started thinking about the things that the dog needs to know as foundation behaviors and when they know that foundation, they know already more than they have to know about what's coming up, no matter what you want to do with them. I go to a nosework class. Whether my dog knows anything about nosework or not, she knows how to learn. She knows how to behave around other dogs. She knows how to keep the leash loose. She knows that I'm trying to teach her something and she's eager to learn it. So I started thinking about how we could start with basic behaviors to teach basic concepts, and then I started writing those out, and then taking them to extremes. And then I started thinking about the idea of zen, doggy zen or leave that alone or whatever people call it in whatever program. But why can't I put my treats on the floor beside me then work the dog? I can do that. Most people can't because the dog's going to be grabbing the food off the floor instead of paying attention. To me that's a foundation behavior. I've got eight-week-old puppies that won't pay attention when the food is on the floor. And so we start working on that. And then you think about that, the idea of the dog controlling herself to get what she wants rather than just trying to grab it is a foundation concept. And if she knows that I go into herding, she's not going, “Give me the sheep, give me the sheep, give me the sheep.” She's going, “What do I have to give you so I can have those sheep?” And no matter what circumstance we go into, she's giving me, “What can I do for you to get what I want out of this situation?” And from there training is just incredibly easy. So that's why I wrote the Training Levels. Also, people have a problem with splitting behaviors. That's the one thing people say about clicker training, “I don't know how to split behaviors. All I'm doing is lumping. I want the dog to sit. I can't see anything that the dog does that takes her from standing to sitting. She's just…” They're describing the enterprise beaming the dog up and beaming her back down in a sit position. Melissa Breau: Right. Right. Sue Ailsby: So I wanted to write them also to teach the trainers how to split and how to reward and how to look for the little behaviors that lead where you want to go. So that's the training level, and they've been enormously successful. I'm really, really proud of them. Melissa Breau: You updated them a few years ago, right? Sue Ailsby: Yeah because I started to realize that I had written them originally for my competition students, so there was competition stuff in there, like how to do a stand for examination. And then I realized that these are foundation behaviors I'm talking about, these are not competition behaviors. If you've got all your foundation behaviors in place, you're six or eight weeks from getting a beginning title in any sport because you've already got the foundation behaviors. What is a stay but self control in a sit? It's an easy explanation. So I rewrote them because I had changed my focus and I realized I was now looking at foundation behaviors for life rather than foundation behaviors just for competition or just for obedience. Now they're foundation behaviors for pets and service dogs. The service dog community has gone nuts over the training levels as foundation for training service dogs. Melissa Breau: Right. Now are there any kind of criteria, I mean you can do this with a puppy or as an adult dog, or really with any age, right? Sue Ailsby: People have done this with llamas and cats and horses and goats and… Melissa Breau: Wow. You don't think of a goat as super trainable. That's impressive. Sue Ailsby: Oh, goats are very smart. Melissa Breau: So you do a lot of different things with your dogs and I would love to hear how you decide what to do with each dog, like whether you have goals for them when you get them as a puppy, whether you kind of explore things as they grow up, like how do you decide what sports to focus on? Sue Ailsby: A lot of it is what's available at the moment. I have a friend that I trial with who is also interested in all different kinds of sports and that I grew up with in a junior kennel club, and we kind of look ahead and say, “So what are we going to do this year? Oh, well, there's a tracking test coming up in so and so and oh, that's relatively close, let's do some tracking,” and things like that. And well, there's some degree of guidance with the Giant Schnauzer. Do I get another Giant so I can do more carting and sled racing sort of stuff, or do I get another Porty so I can continue doing water trials? And then sometimes something's available and you give it a shot and it's clear that the dog either isn't going to enjoy it or just has no aptitude for it. I've had lots of Giant Schnauzers with herding titles. My first Porty had a herding title. I take my current Portys out to the sheep and they're like, “they're not bothering me.” Melissa Breau: No interest, huh? Sue Ailsby: No. And back to how the training has changed, my six-year-old, I took her out as a younger dog onto sheep at a clinic and she was awful. She was just completely uninterested in sheep, and as I started back, okay, my turn is over, I'm starting back towards the other people at the clinic, and I can see on their faces they're all thinking oh, dear. Sue's dog was terrible, she's going to be so mad. And I can see this going through their heads and I'm like mad at my dog because she has no aptitude for herding sheep? That's kind of silly. But they don't know that. So in a big loud voice I said, “She's terrible at herding sheep.” And they're all looking at me like here it comes, she's going to give the dog away or... and I said, “Do you know what this means? I don't have to buy sheep this year.” Okay. If herding sheep is really, really important to me, then I will sit down and guide her and show her that she can have a good time herding sheep. And if it's not important to me... which it isn't. It's a fun thing to do if the dog's enjoying it, but in itself it's not important to me. So okay, so we're not going to be herding with this dog. Melissa Breau: That's really funny. That's one of those things where especially in a sport like that where at least a big part of it is instinct, you really can't fault the dog. If it's not there, it's just not there. Sue Ailsby: Right. Melissa Breau: Yeah. Sue Ailsby: And she loves nosework. If I would hide 20 things around the house every day and send her to find them, that would just make her entire year. So we're going to do some, and they seem to enjoy the carting. And it's a thrill for me to see her in obedience with her coat flowing and her flag flying and strut stepping and having a good time. Melissa Breau: Now you also teach rally, right? Sue Ailsby: Yes. Melissa Breau: So I haven't had the pleasure of taking your rally class, but I'd love to know what you think you kind of maybe do differently than how other people teach those skills. I know for example, Hannah's really taught the obedience skill building series very differently than how most people approach obedience, and I'd imagine, you're an outside the box thinker, that you probably approach rally a little differently. Can you talk to that? Sue Ailsby: What I see in a lot of physical rally classes is the same thing I see in a lot of physical conformation classes, which is: this is the course. You go through the course and here you get the dog to sit and here you get the dog to back up and here you get the dog to do this, and no, you have to keep the leash loose here and no, you have to give only one queue there, and they're talking about teaching the handler how to do the course but they're not teaching the dog how to do the behaviors. So it's even worse in conformation where they just take the dog to a class and walk around in a circle for an hour and bore the dog out of its mind and that's a conformation class instead of teaching the dog how to do the behaviors and how to have a good time. And so I don't even introduce courses until we've gone at least several weeks, and then a course might be two signs. Just maybe walk from this sign to this sign and have the dog sit. And I'm not looking at whether it's heeling straight or anything, just walk from here to there and have the dog sit because we've already talked about how to walk and how to get the dog to sit. I don't know, the only thing I'm doing different is that I'm teaching the dog how to do the behaviors and I'm teaching the handler how to teach the dog. Melissa Breau: Now in the skill building series, is there a particular organization that you‘re focused on, or... I know that you can do rally with a number of different organizations these days. Sue Ailsby: Well, because Fenzi is an international school, I can't really focus on one venue, and I know there are people that have taken rally from me in Europe who are doing cyber rally. They're doing rally where they send in videos and the videos are judged because there's no rally organization within physical distance of them. So I kind of say this is the basic idea of this sign. Now read the rules of the venue you're going to be in and we will discuss what the rule says for your venue and any changes you're going to have to make because of that. Melissa Breau: I'd imagine that's one of the classes where the gold students are extremely helpful, just having the… Sue Ailsby: Gold students are always precious. Oh, the training levels. A training levels isn't one class, one session of classes, it's a semester, it's a bunch of semesters which you can sign up for one at a time. But the gold students in the fourth semester have been taking the program right from the beginning and it's a family. It was such an amazing dynamic. It was thrilling to have these people and to realize that now I'm not telling them basic things any more, they know the basic things now. I'm telling them minor modifications, and that was absolutely thrilling. Melissa Breau: I'd love to make sure that everybody listening to this kind of gets the chance to see a little bit of how you teach or a sample of kind of what some of the things that you tackle are, so is there one skill or problem that you find people consistently have issues with and just come up again and again and again that you wouldn't mind maybe walking us through how you typically tackle it? Sue Ailsby: The one thing you absolutely have to have to train a dog anything is the single most important foundation behavior, which is paying attention, I call it being in the game. If the dog is in the game you can teach her anything. If she's not in the game, you can't teach her anything. Melissa Breau: Right. Sue Ailsby: Go to an agility trial. Oh, if I'm doing a seminar somewhere…one time people in Detroit or somewhere said we want you to spend one day of the seminar doing agility, and I'm like, “You people are insane. I'm not a high-end agility handler, I do agility because my dog enjoys doing agility and because it makes me move. I'm old, I'm fat, I'm disabled. Surely in Detroit there are world class agility instructors.” Melissa Breau: Right. Sue Ailsby: And they're like, “No. We already work with them. We want to know what you have to say about agility.” I said, “Okay, but you make sure everybody who signs up for the agility session knows that I'm an amateur agility person. I'm not going to be out there pretending I'm some agility guru. I was a conformation judge, I know conformation. I don't know agility like a judge.” “Okay, we'll tell them, we'll tell them.” Well, I get there and they're like okay, what problem are you having with this dog and I'm thinking, oh, she's not doing precisely the right behavior on the down contact or I'm having trouble with threadles or something. No. We get halfway through the course and she goes off to visit the steward, or she can't work if my husband's watching. These are not agility problems, these are foundation problems. So I was there for a whole day doing an agility seminar and absolutely nothing of what I did was agility. It was foundation behaviors. Melissa Breau: That's why they wanted you to come in. Sue Ailsby: Yeah. If the dog isn't able to focus on you, if the dog is afraid in that situation, if the dog is nervous in that situation, if the dog is just distracted by everything else that's going on, you can't be teaching the dog to do a teeter. And yet the more distracted the dog gets, the harder people try to work on the teeter. “No, we're doing teeters. Come on, you have to do the teeter.” Stop doing the teeter. You can't teach a teeter when the dog is distracted. You have to get the dog focused. That's a foundation. Melissa Breau: So how would somebody who realizes they have that problem start to tackle it? What would you have them do as like that first step of fixing it? Sue Ailsby: I've started students' dogs sometimes in the bathroom with the door shut and the toilet paper put away so there's absolutely nothing to distract them. I have students with Salukis. Salukis don't eat in public. Melissa Breau: Oh. That's not a thing I knew. Sue Ailsby: “Excuse me, I'm a sight hound, I do not eat in public.” And so we start them in the bathroom. Okay, not public. Can you do this, can you take this food from me? Can you take this food from me? Can you look at me and take the food from me? Can you touch my hand and take the food from me? Then you go into a slightly more distracting situation like open the bathroom door and repeat the instruction, and then maybe you go out in the hallway and you repeat the instruction. And you go into the living room and “Oh, you can't do it here? Okay, let's go back to the bathroom and we'll start there again at let me explain that again.” You touch my hand, you get a treat. You like that? Okay, let's go out in the hallway. You touch the hand, you get the treat. Let's go out…no, still can't do it? Let me explain it again and we go back to the bathroom until they can do it, until they can do it from scratch in the living room. Oh, boy. Now we can go out in the backyard or we can go in the front yard or we can go in the car. We can drive the car to a parking lot and we can get out in the parking lot and see if they can do it there. Because the big problem with having a class is you take the dog there and the dog is expected to do stuff, and maybe the dog has never been in that situation before and they can't do stuff there. Mostly they're just standing there going holy cow, I didn't know there was that many dogs in the world. Melissa Breau: Fair enough. Sue Ailsby: So the absolute bottom line foundation is paying attention, focus. And if you don't have focus, stop working on something else and go back and get focus. It's like clothes. Okay, you're in grade two now, you have to wear clothes. Yeah, but I'm late for school. Oh my God, he's late for school, let's go to school. Oh, wait a minute. You still don't have clothes on. Melissa Breau: I like that analogy. Sue Ailsby: I'm not going to take you to school and shove you in the classroom. It doesn't matter if you're late for school, you're going to put your clothes on first. Melissa Breau: Right. Absolutely. Sue Ailsby: And trying to get people to the point I think has been a lifelong battle of me trying to get people to the point where they see that the clothes come first. Stop trying to get the dog to do a sit stay when all he wants to do is go see that cute dog at the end of the line. You're not working on forcing him to do a sit stay, you're working on him to focus. If that means taking him out of the room into the next room where he's by himself, “Can you focus now? That's wonderful. Good job. You can focus.” And then you take one step into the training room again and he loses it and you take him back out again. “You want to be in the training room where you can see that lovely creature? I need focus. You can focus here. Shall we try it again?” See what happens to me when I start thinking about the dog getting out of control is I get calmer. My voice goes down. I felt my shoulders come down. Instead of getting more excited and going, “No, no, no. Come over here. Sit.” I said, “No, you can't do it here, we'll go back out in the other room. Can you do it there?” And over time he's going to get to the point where he can walk into the other room and see, oh, she's still there. Isn't she cute? But he's still focused on you and on what he's supposed to be doing. My llamas actually taught me this. I have a breeding pen and when I'm going to breed a female I put her in the breeding pen and then I go and get a stud. And if he won't put his nose in the halter, which is a trained behavior that he already has, if he won't put his nose in the halter because he's too busy running back and forth along the fence going “breeding pen, breeding pen,” then I'm going to walk away. I'm not hunting you down, son. The halter's over here. You don't get to come out of your pasture until you've got your halter on. Melissa Breau: Right. Sue Ailsby: So the second or third time I walk away he's like, can I put my nose in the halter please? Like yeah, yeah, you can. And then we step out, and he knows in his soul because I taught him this when he was a baby. Tight leashes go away from where you want to go and loose leashes go where you want them to go. I bought a stud who weighed 400 pounds, an adult, and he didn't know that. He thought if he wanted to go that way he'd just go that way and you'd come with him. So I had an ATV and I just tied the leash to the ATV and when he tried to drag me to the breeding pen, I'd just turn around and drive the other way. And so while other people are arguing with their studs, it takes three people to get him safely to the breeding pen, I'm walking across the yard with one finger on the leash and he's walking backwards because he's concentrating so hard on keeping that leash loose. It's not my job any more to control him. And that's the bottom line of all training. It's not my job to control the animal, it's the animal's job to control himself. All I do is supply the consequences. Tight leashes go back to the bachelor pad, loose leashes go to the breeding pen. But people say, “But my dog really, really, really, really wants the treat. He just goes crazy.” “Honey, your dog doesn't want the treat more than my stud wants to get to the breeding pen. Trust me on this.” Melissa Breau: Yeah. Sue Ailsby: And if I one time tell him that dragging me to the pen will get me there, then I've lost all the training I did. He has to know in his very soul that tight leashes go back to the bachelor pad, and when he's got that he's got everything. So I had 4-H kids with breeding males standing in the waiting ring at a show surrounded by females and they're just like, my leash is loose. Isn't it great? Melissa Breau: That's impressive. Sue Ailsby: And yet it's very standard training. Melissa Breau: It's one of those pieces of advice that is simple but not easy. Sue Ailsby: Yes. Absolutely. And it's a piece of advice that you have to keep in front of you all the time, just like if you're not focusing on me, we're not working on anything but focus. Melissa Breau: I have three more short questions. I've asked these questions to everybody that's been on the show, and the first one's usually the hardest. What is the dog-related accomplishment that you would say you're proudest of? Sue Ailsby: I'm proudest of my relationship with my dogs. I'm proudest that I can go to a competition and people watch me in a water trial or whatever we're doing and people will come up after and say, “That was so beautiful. She was working with you so beautifully that you were like a team. And it didn't look like you were trying to get her to do anything, it just looked like you thought, I think I'd like her to do that, and she went and did it for you.” And that to me is the essence of why I have a dog. Melissa Breau: My second to last question is, what is the best piece of training advice that you've ever heard? Sue Ailsby: Get yourself out of the mix. Don't take it personally. Our entire culture is based on antagonism. I have to fight to defend everything I get and everybody else is trying to not let me have it. And that, especially in the training that I grew up with, was the key to everything. This is my idea and if you're doing the same thing, you'd better credit me because it's my idea. And my dog has to do what I tell her to do. She doesn't have a say in this or she's defying me. And to turn it around and take myself out of the mix and say, “How do I get the dog to want to do this, and how do I nudge her gently in the direction I want her to go and still have her think that it was her idea?” I was talking about this to somebody who took tai chi once and they said, “That's tai chi for dogs.” You don't meet force head on, you receive it and you change its course and send it on its way. To take something the dog is doing and not think she's defying me but to be able to sit back completely without rancor and say, why did she do that? How can I make it better for her to do what I want than it was for her to do that? Melissa Breau: So the last one up is, who is someone else in the dog world that you look up to? And part of the reason we ask this question is because we're always looking for who we should talk to in the future, so who is someone else in the dog world that you look up to? Sue Ailsby: Denise Fenzi. That didn't help much, did it? Melissa Breau: That's all right. Sue Ailsby: I'm absolutely awe struck at her ability, not just to build a business and to manage a business, but to assemble a group of instructors that I think every single instructor is just giddy over the idea of working with instructors of this quality. To keep us sane and to keep us, and I said before that training was all very tight and greedy. This is mine, this is my idea, and that's not what happens at Fenzi and it's because of the kind of training that we do. But it's not I don't care how she's doing it, this is how I do it. It's more like yeah, that's not the way I do it but that's a perfectly legitimate way of doing it and so since you've already got that, let's just work with that. And the other person I admire is not a single person, it's the students. It's the students who know so much and they come to learn more, and it's the students who know nothing and come and take gold classes to learn more because they trust us not to make fun of them because they don't know something. It's to the point where you can tell somebody who has been in another Fenzi class with another instructor because they're not afraid to take the coaching. They're not defensive because they know that you're coaching, you're not making fun. The people I really admire are the people who started out in traditional training and are trying to change because changing is so difficult. Melissa Breau: Well, thank you so much, Sue. I really appreciate you being willing to do this. Sue Ailsby: That was fun. Melissa Breau: Thanks for tuning in. We'll be back in two weeks with Stacy Barnett, one of the excellent nosework instructors at FDSA and founder of the Scentsabilities podcast. If you haven't already, subscribe to our podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. CREDITS: Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzi for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty-free by BenSound.com; the track featured here is called “Buddy.” Audio editing provided by Chris Lang and transcription written by CLK Transcription Services. Thanks again for tuning in -- and happy training!  

SHOW NOTES:  Summary: Loretta Mueller has been involved in agility since 2003. Loretta and her dogs are no strangers to the finals at the USDAA World Championships and she currently coaches the World Agility Organization USA Agility Team. She also runs FullTilt Agility Training in central Minnesota. Outside of the agility world, Loretta has been involved in herding, competitive obedience, rally and service dog training. Links mentioned: FullTilt Agility USA WAO Team Next Episode:  To be released 3/3/2017, featuring Nancy Gagliardi Little. TRANSCRIPTION: Melissa Breau: This is Melissa Breau and you're listening to the Fenzi Dog Sports podcast brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy, an online school dedicated to providing high quality instruction for competitive dog sports, using only the most current and progressive training methods. Today we'll be talking to Loretta Mueller. Loretta has been involved in agility since 2003. Loretta and her dogs are no strangers to the finals at the USDAA World Championships and she currently coaches the World Agility Organization USA Agility Team. She also runs FullTilt Agility Training in central Minnesota. Outside of the agility world, Loretta has been involved in herding, competitive obedience, rally and service dog training. Welcome to the podcast, Loretta. Loretta Mueller: Thanks for having me Melissa, I'm excited to be here. Melissa Breau: Excited to be talking to you. So, to get us started out, can you just tell us a little bit about the dogs you have now and kind of what you're working on? Loretta Mueller: Sure, yeah. I have six dogs. Their names are Clink, Gator, Lynn, Even, Crackers and Gig and I train all of them in agility. I also work the dogs on sheep, except for the terrier. Melissa Breau: And Crackers is your terrier, right? Loretta Mueller: Yes, correct. Melissa Breau: Okay. So how did you get into competitive dog sports and training? Loretta Mueller: It all started out with my first dog, Ace. He was a rescue from a no-kill shelter and he had a lot of fear issues. On top of fear issues, he also had separation anxiety and an excessive amount of energy, so I started taking some dog obedience classes with him to see if that would help with some of his behavior issues, and it did of course. After obedience, I discovered agility and pretty much never looked back. I still do obedience and I still train it a lot, but agility is my passion for sure. Melissa Breau: So in your bio on the Fenzi website, it says that you believe there's never a one size fits all method in training. Can you explain what you mean by that? Loretta Mueller: Sure, yeah. I never just go into a lesson or a seminar thinking today we're going to learn about “insert topic here.” I go with a general plan, but I let the dog dictate what we work on. I'm about the entire picture. So, to try to teach each dog and each handler in the exact same way doesn't make sense to me. There's always adjustments, sometimes to the point of trying something totally different so the team gets it. I really want to teach people to read their dogs to try to put themselves in their dog's place as much as they possibly can. There's always a reason the dog does something, and I feel it's our job to know why they're doing it, or at least to help them find the correct path. And you can't know why if you don't observe. Melissa Breau: Do you have any examples where that's kind of happened recently that you can give us or kind of talk us through? Loretta Mueller: Yeah. Just recently at a seminar I actually had a woman that was having some major issues with start line stays. The dog was breaking in trials. The dog was breaking in training and she was really frustrated because, of course, the normal does everything perfect at home, and so she came in to the seminar wanting that help, and what happened was it turned into a, what is your dog's emotional state, and are they stressed, and in this situation, the dog was definitely stressed. And so, we had to adjust all the training that she had planned for the day to work on the dog's emotional state and then by the end of the day the dog's emotional state was awesome and magically the dog was able to do a start line stay with no issues whatsoever. So, I think it's just about seeing what dog comes into the ring and you have to figure out what the main issue is and then go from there and I make sure I do that with each and every team so if you go to a seminar with me, you're going to see me do a ton of different techniques and a ton of different things for dogs. Each dog's going to be a tiny bit different or majorly different, depending on the dog. Melissa Breau: Do you kind of see that as a philosophy of how you teach and train? Loretta Mueller: For sure. Yes, definitely. It's all about the dogs in my opinion and I think that if I can get a person to understand that and to learn how to communicate with their dog, that's the number one thing I'm there to do. Once that happens, everything falls into place. Melissa Breau: So, how did that kind of come about? Like, how did you reach that conclusion that that's really how you wanted to teach and train? Loretta Mueller: I think, you know I used to do research, and so my years in research taught me that there are always things you're looking for, obviously, or expect to happen, and people are really good at that, right? They know to expect this and they know to expect that, and usually that's not the issue. It's normally those small moments that missing a tiny change in behavior or not taking into consideration the dog's emotional state that can really get you into trouble. I've never met a dog that was bad. I've only met dogs that were trying desperately to communicate with their owners. Sometimes their form of communication isn't what we want, so it's up to us to learn how to communicate with our dogs. It's hard I think for us to get into that mindset sometimes that we have to make all the changes so that the dog understands. Can dogs change? Of course they can, but they are going to communicate with us in the only way they know how, and so for us, we have to learn their language and I think once that happens it's amazing how obvious everything turns out to be. Melissa Breau: So I was doing some googling and looking up stuff and doing my research before we got on the phone, and I came across a review from one of your seminars where a student was singing your praises and she mentioned that you've a quality that's really hard to find in a trainer. She said that you were “able to work with fast dogs, motivate slow dogs, build confidence in the shy and calm the crazy.” She said that you were “equally good at handling both experienced and inexperienced trainers.” What do you think, I mean we've been talking a little bit about the idea of adapting to the dog, but especially that piece in there about both experienced and inexperienced trainers. What do you feel that you do differently that's allowed you to be so successful with a wide variety of dogs and handlers? Loretta Mueller: I think I try to not get myself so much into rules but more about guidelines. I always tell people I would be that dog that everyone doesn't want. So, I'm that environmentally sensitive dog who can stress up or down. I personally am the type of dog that if the leader doesn't know what they're doing that's going to stress me out, so, if a person's learning a front cross, things like that, people make mistakes. I only have a limited number of reps and in my opinion, what's the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result. I can be very food motivated, not always toy motivated and I can be very oppositional, so if I feel I am being forced into something, anything basically, I'll put the brakes on instantly. And if you start to get frustrated with me or I feel like you're not being fair with me, I'm done. So, that's how I train people too. I just think in terms of, I don't want to put them over their head. I want to minimize any frustration and I want to give them a good experience as far as that goes. When I'm teaching, and this is very, very important I think, is I don't have expectations of a team when they come into the ring. I don't assume that I know what the team is or what they need. I observe them for that moment in time that I'm with them and I show them the things that they need to work on or change. Again, it all starts with the dog and then goes to the human. I like to think of it as I'm observing a science experiment. I write down what the team needs in a totally non-emotional way and then I work to solve the problem. As I said before, I'm all about the dog, so people ask me all the time, how do you work with people who are not open to change, because I get that in seminars sometimes. And people are amazed, I guess that I can get people who are normally like, I don't want to do this and I don't want to do that, to change and to be honest with you, from my standpoint it's very simple. They see the dog change and they change, and so I think that that's a really important thing. Another thing for me, is it's just my experiences, so I've had so many experiences with all different types of dogs and teams and I need to make sure I thank the people that have really helped me with that and the big, big group of them was my very first set of private students, though I like to call them my island of misfit toys, and that's actually a good thing. They were all people who were ready to give up agility and they came to me and asked me for lessons. The dogs were frustrated or had behavior issues. The people were frustrated and it just wasn't fun for them. One of my examples is one of my dearest friends, she had a lab and the first lesson she put the dog on the start line and let out to cue jumps and said, okay, and the dog spent an hour chasing birds. So these students, they taught me so much, and their dogs taught me so much and I wouldn't be here without them, you know. I'm still giving lessons to all of them 13 years later with their newer dogs and just seeing that type of evolution. I'm all about what the dogs have to teach me. So, every dog I've had has taught me something. I've had the range of dogs. People always say, oh border collies are all the same, and you know, I've had one really good border collie that was a nice mix of high drive, but totally could control herself. She was great between training and trialing. She didn't change. The rest of my dogs I've had a range, so some of them are scared. They were unmotivated. Some of them were over threshold, losing their brain, and each one of my dogs has also taught me so much in my opinion. They really are the best teachers. They're super consistent and we can learn a lot from them if we just choose to listen. Melissa Breau: So, kind of talking a little more about your dogs, and switching gears at the same time, I guess, Denise mentioned that you have, what she considered, a different approach to raising puppies, at least those first couple weeks and months after you bring them home. Can you talk a little bit about that? Loretta Mueller: Yeah, I can. I thought she'd maybe do that. So, this doesn't sell books or DVDs, but when I get a puppy home, I don't normally do what everybody else does. I don't instantly start training them. I observe. So, I'm sure you noticed that the word observation comes up a lot in this interview, but I observe my puppies, and yes, I do some playing, so like normally, with or without toys, and I get them out. But I do a lot of watching and I write down things, and what that allows me to do is, it allows me to get a baseline for this puppy so I know what the ins and outs of the puppy are. I believe with each training session you're changing the dog and one must always realize that when they're training, so I think it's so important to know exactly what you have. What's the base model so to speak? Are they timid? Are they bold? Do they problem solve well? Do they get frustrated easily? All those things come into play when I work on how I want to train that specific dog. And the only way you can get a totally sterile idea of what the puppy is, is just to observe them those first few weeks. It's really quite fascinating and you'll learn so much about your puppy. It's not that you're just letting them do whatever they want, but a lot of trick training and stuff like that, I just don't do the first few weeks just so I can really get an idea of what kind of puppy I actually have. Melissa Breau: Is there anything specific you look for in a puppy that you're trying to validate or not validate, or what have you? Loretta Mueller: You know, people always ask me if I want doers or thinkers, and personally I'm okay either way. It doesn't really bother me. What I'm looking for usually in a puppy is I want to see that they're taking on the world, they can be cautious if they want, but that they bounce back. I want to see a puppy that's curious, but the one that just throws himself into situations, I don't necessarily care about that positively or negatively. But I just want a puppy that's going to bounce back from things. That's to me the biggest thing because the bottom line is, for me in competitive sports, you can have the most amazingly structured dog and the dog can move just perfect, but if they can't handle noise, if they can't handle flags flapping in the wind, people behind them, things like that, it doesn't matter how well they move. All that matters is that they can't compete if they're like that or they're going to be a challenge to compete. So, that's really what I'm looking for and if I get a puppy that's not quite how I want it, the nice thing is I can get a good sense for where they're at and then from there I can design some training whether I'm building confidence or building some control into the training and things like that. So, it's a really good place to start and get a great idea before you start training something you may or may not have wanted in a dog. Melissa Breau: So after this first couple of weeks of observing their behavior and kind of getting to know them, do you mind just telling us a little bit about how you approach this first steps of building a relationship and socialization and what training you do do with a young dog or a puppy? Loretta Mueller: Sure, yeah. If you would compare how I used to train versus how I'm training now, it's really changed a lot. I could say with each dog I've gotten, it's taught me so much about this. I guess for me it's all about in the beginning just being there which I know probably sounds kind of weird. But just the act of being with the puppy is so much more important than teaching tricks. Now, I have no problem with teaching tricks. I love teaching tricks. I'm going to usually start with basic tricks like wave and things like that. I think it's a great way to get your dog's brain worked and teaching them to be resilient and keep trying, but honestly it cannot be a replacement for just being with your dog. But I'm going to work on…you know I have a dog with a lot of motion sensitivity. Obviously, they're all herding bred border collies, and so I'm going to work on a lot of motion desensitization as far as look at me games and getting them to redirect automatically, and that's the first thing I teach all of my puppies is, they see something they want, they immediately look to me. And that's the foundation obviously for recalls and it's the foundation for attention and things like that, and I'm going to be working on that the entire time they're growing up because it's really important that my dogs don't look at a jogger and say, ‘oh, great. Taking off now, thank you very much.' I don't want that, and so that's going to be a big one. But as far as tricks, whatever you want to teach your dog. If you're playing with your dog, I'm happy. But for me, a lot of times what I see with my students, is they have a working relationship, which is great. That's what you want to build, but sometimes I see some of it lacking in the actual just relationship of being with a puppy. A good example of this is my youngest border collie, Gig. She's two now, but when she was six months old, she tore a muscle in her shoulder after a freak accident where her leg got caught in a metal crate, and I had nothing to do with her. Yeah, it was tough you know. A six-month-old very high drive border collie puppy and I didn't have much I could do with her. If you're familiar with shoulders, they're just really a pain in the rear end to have to rehab, and the only things I really had that I could do with her was, I could be in an ex pen with her and just kind of sit with her, pet her. I could nap with her… which, she didn't sleep much, and I could do some little tiny playing, like I call it bitey face. You know, where the puppy kind of bites at your hand type of thing, and that was it. I couldn't teach her anything, and it kind of broke my heart when this happened, obviously because it happened, but also because this puppy was by far my most independent dog that I've ever raised. She was an eight-week-old puppy and she would just run away. So when I put her down, I'm thinking eight-week-old puppies they come with me, yay, right? Nope, gone. See ya. Bye-bye. And so I spent months going, this is going to be horrible when I get this puppy out of an ex pen, when I can put her on a leash and take her for leash walks, because all I had was just the act of being with her. That's it, and without tricks and training could we bond, and the bottom line is, yeah. She's the most bonded dog I have, and so just being there in the moment with puppies, no expectations, I think is key to having great relationship and building a foundation for all the tricks, training and things like that that you want to do. Socialization is also key, right, but then again, I'm just there. I don't force the dogs to interact with the environment. It's just kind of one of those, here you go puppy, we're at the park. What do you think? Take them. Let them take it all in. No expectations, and you know when I'm doing training, as far as the actual skill sets, like I mentioned before, there are doers and there are thinkers. The doers just like to go, and then the thinkers are always trying to analyze stuff, and I like to take my training and make the doers more into thinkers and vice versa. I do a lot of drive training with my dogs and what that does is for the dogs that are thinkers it makes them more into a doer and they grab at the toy and I say kind of go a little feral for a while and get that drive up, and then the doers have to put a little bit more control, control their drive and I think that that works great with all of them. And everything's going to be tailored using that information that I gathered in the first few weeks of having that puppy. I know what I have. I can start my training program adjusted for each puppy. Of course I have general guidelines, so dogs all need to start line sync, but how I get to that finished product isn't the same for each dog, and then also when they're young, I'm not much of a record keeper. I kind of have tendency to not do that, because if I put things down in a record, what happens is my type A personality says, okay, in this session you must do dumbbell retrieves. But the problem is, sometimes the dog changes the program and you have to adjust. So, I tend to not write down plans for stuff, but I will, for my young dogs and I do have a book for each one of my dogs the first two years of their life, I reevaluate my dog each month. So, I treat it just as if I was evaluating a new student's dog. So, dogs change constantly and they should, because you're training them, and so I want to make sure that, for example, the timid dog that I had at eight weeks has not gotten more timid, or I need to definitely change something. And if I had a high drive dog, let's say that I put too much control on, so the dog won't do anything on its own, then I will adjust my training to get them to party a bit more, and it's all about that balancing act. Dog training's definitely an art in many situations and so it's nice to be able to look back and then be able to somewhat predict or change things to make sure I'm progressing in a way that takes me where I want the dogs to go. Melissa Breau: Now when you say you evaluate them each month, do you have a specific way that you do that? Or do you just kind of reflect on what you've done or reflect on how they've been the last couple of training sessions, or what's your process there? Because that's really interesting. Loretta Mueller: Yeah, so what I do is I kind of go through a series of little situations. So for example, I'm going to write down the dog's weaknesses, and what I do when I'm doing this, is I don't read the previous month, because I believe that it kind of will make you change things. So, I just say, what is the dog I have right now today? If a student brought this dog in, what would I say about it? So, what are the dog's weaknesses, whether it's a skill set or something like that? What are the dog's strengths? What do they know? What do they not know? And resiliency. So, does the dog bounce back? Does it care if there's a mistake made? Things like that. I work pressure work with my dogs so people behind my dogs to prepare them for trialing, and I always take note of how the dog's handling it. Do they care about the pressure this month? Do they not? At what point does that bubble happen where the person invades their pressure and they don't like it? Things like that. So, I'm looking at those skills. Delay of reward. Are the dogs able to work through that as far as you not having any treats or toys on you, because that's something you definitely have to work on before you start trialing, and things like that. So, I'm looking at individual skill sets, but also just the overall picture of, is the dog in drive? Are they staying in drive? Are they emotionally happy, and are they resilient and bouncing back? And if I see anything that doesn't make sense or when I look back the previous month, that I noticed that they did something where they kind of backslid a little bit, then I'm going to adjust things. I just started working on that actually with my young dog, Gig, who has suddenly started, when the weave poles are in situation, she will, instead of going to the weave pole, she will come back and try to redirect to me and usually it's my sweatshirt, which is not an appropriate behavior and she wasn't doing it a month ago, and now she's doing it now. And so, I'm in the process of saying, okay that's a big change. I have to figure out how to make that better and for her, it was just mainly an over threshold thing. So, we're working on different levels of threshold and she's getting it. So next month, I'm probably going to have another thing, right, because dog's just continuously change things, and that's a big thing I always think of in terms of, is instinctive drift, right? We're always training against instinctive drift, so weave poles. Dog's don't weave stuff in nature, ever, and weave poles break. Stopped contacts break. Why? Dog's don't run down hills and slam into a sit or a down. They just don't do it, and so usually those are the things that are going to break. Those are the things that are going to show up most often in those journals, is okay, the weaves are bad this week or the A-frame contact was bad, and normally it's not necessarily jumping or handling or tunnels. Usually tunnels don't break, but it's just those behaviors that the dogs really have to go against what they instinctively know and do naturally that have a tendency to kind of break down and so you're going to see those. But if I see an emotional thing in looking through stuff, what I'm going to immediately do, is I'm going to say, okay there's an emotional aspect to all of this. Everything else stops, and I must deal with that. And so it's just, those are things I've encountered and it's just really good. Because I think a lot of people…you know I see people that come to seminars and they say, my dog is a bar knocker or my dog is stressy, and a lot of times I'll end up asking them, well the dog I see is not stressy, so when was this dog stressy? And you know when they actually…you'll see them kind of sit and think, and they'll go well, like when he was six months old he was stressy. Okay, well he's changed since then, right? And so it's a nice way for us as trainers to be able to let go of stuff, because we have a tendency of holding on to things way longer than the dogs do, and the dogs are just like, you know, I know I was sensitive six months ago. But I'm not now. I'm good. I'm cool. And so then you can train that dog, which could be a totally different dog. I look at my dog Lynn. As a young dog, she was an analytical…she reminded me of Sheldon off Big Bang Theory. Super analytical, super thinky, didn't like to try a lot, it was  tough. She was sensitive, and now whenever anything goes wrong, very vocal and it is completely my fault. All of it, and I like that. I want a dog to respond to me and say, you know what, you caused all of this. Especially a dog like her who was the type that would just lay down and go, I'm not going to do anything I'm just going to lay here because I don't know what's going to happen. And so you know, she's not at all the same dog, and so it's just neat to go back and be able to see that, and then the nice thing about having all those journals is, you get another puppy and you can compare and say, okay, so my Clink dog who had over threshold issues, is growing up a lot like my current young dog, Gig, who also has over threshold issues, and I can actually take those two journals and compare them and I see a ton of similarities. So, it's a nice way to predict a lot of times what you're going to have and then you can kind of copy some training along with it. Melissa Breau: And it gives you a sense of whether what you're doing works or doesn't work and… Loretta Mueller: Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Normally I tell people if you're going to try something different with a method or whatever, give it two weeks. See what you have. See what's happening. If you have some little steps forward, that's great. Don't expect something huge. If you get something huge, awesome, but if you notice steps back then it's time to reevaluate and to say, okay, this isn't working and most of the time we get so stuck in patterns of working on usually our strengths, because we want to make ourselves feel better, that we have a tendency to lose some of that stuff and so this just kind of keeps you on track and keeps you honest about what you really should be working on with the dogs. Melissa Breau: And you mentioned, and I just think this is important so I want to emphasize it, kind of the idea that sometimes we get stuck on labels for our dogs that no longer apply to them, and so we continue training a dog that's no longer the dog in front of us. I just think that's so poignant and crucial for people to understand that they need to actually look at their dog for who they are today and not be judging the dog they had six months or a year ago or when they were six months old. Loretta Mueller: Exactly, and it's hard for us, because we get wrapped up in this emotionally and we have such a great emotional connection with these dogs that we just, yeah, we get stuck sometimes. I'd be the first person to say that I've gotten stuck on a couple dogs and it just…it's hard for us to let go of it. Meanwhile, the dogs are changing, but at the same time they're getting treated the same. If you think about when you were five years old versus now, you're definitely not even remotely the same person you were probably at five and you had a foundation temperament, but in general you've changed a lot and so I think it's just really important, because that's what I see a lot of. When I do just problem solving seminars or stress seminars, especially, I see people that come in and they are already stressed about something that hasn't happened yet, and then of course that feeds down to the dogs and then that makes them stressed. I think that dogs in general, they're either affected by their environment or they're not, and so if the person's stressed and the dog is the type that gets affected by the environment, then you're going to have a dog that's going to react differently. And if you can just stop and say, you know what, your dog is not this stressy dog anymore. It's amazing when you change the person how much different the dog changes and it's very cool to see the dog go, ah, okay. This is good, and then the confidence comes out, and I've had my share of not confident dogs. I've had my share of scared dogs. My ten-year-old dog, Gator, who's been to finals many, many times, doesn't like people, and doesn't like cameras and that's what happens in the finals and he runs and he's a good boy and life is good, but that's due to training and due to trust and the fact of the matter is, now that he's ten, he doesn't care about anything. But as a young dog, when he was 18 months old, he cared about everything and all things were horrible and children were bad and now, he'll play tennis if someone wants to hit a tennis ball or whatever, he'll play with a kid. He doesn't care, and so it was up to me to say, okay, Gator, you know what? He's just pretty normal now, and so it's easy to get stuck there and so it's just that book…like I said I only do it the first two years. In reality, I probably should do it a lot more and a lot longer, but it just gives you the ability to say, for most people, wow, you know. We've really come a long way, and I think that's really important for people to be able to see that. Melissa Breau: Yeah. I feel like that's definitely a lesson I've been gradually absorbing. My shepherd can sometimes get awful environmentally sensitive and barky and all that other stuff and we've done a lot of work on it and she's come a long way and it took me a while to actually realize how far she'd come and realize I didn't have to be quite so nervous all the time. Loretta Mueller: Exactly, yeah. Melissa Breau: I wanted to kind of round things out by saying three final short questions that I've asked everybody so far that's come on the podcast. So the first one is what dog related accomplishment are you proudest of? Loretta Mueller: Wow. There's so many. I have a lot of moments with my dogs and my student's dogs. It's really hard to pick sometimes. I would say probably getting a silver medal at the USDAA Cynosports World Championships with Clink. She's my 11-year-old. She was the dog that at six months I was told would not make a good agility dog because she was so over threshold. She screamed every single moment on course. Every photo I have her mouth is wide open, slobber everywhere, and she was the dog that I would have called the bar knocker. And you know, I have a story about Clink that I always tell people, especially when they're struggling, and it was during one of my runs at a regional after I was a little frustrated with her because she'd been knocking a lot of bars. I bent down, right before the run, and I kissed her on the forehead, which I didn't normally do, and I felt her whole body relax, and she went on and ran and got a silver medal, and I realized at that moment that she was not a bar knocker. She was a dog that was really anxious and really, really wanted to please me, and as long as she knew that she was fine. And so overnight at a regional my entire thought process changed about her and I went from thinking she was a tough dog and a dog that didn't always listen, to a dog that just really kind of had a Dennis the Menace, right? I'll fix it, I'll fix it, and do it faster and I learned a lot from her. So, for her to be able to get on the podium at the World Championships USDAA and get a silver medal was just, to me, an amazing thing, because I already knew she was awesome. But then the whole world got to see just how cool she was, and so for her that was huge and for me as a trainer and then also just as my relationship with her for sure. Melissa Breau: That's an awesome story. I like that. Loretta Mueller: Thank you. Melissa Breau: So, our second to the end, I guess, question. Is what is the best piece of training advice that you've ever heard? Loretta Mueller: I've gotten to work with so many amazing people in obedience and herding and agility, and I guess, I don't know what everybody else has said, but to me, one of my most cherished and amazing statements that I've heard was from Ray Hunt, who was a horse trainer and he said, you must realize the slightest change and the smallest try, and so meaning, reward the effort. Acknowledge that the animal is trying and if you choose to recognize that smallest try or slightest change, that's what makes or breaks your training. And if you don't notice that small change in the dogs, then they do one of two things. They either give up, or they get harder, and they say, you know what? I tried. You didn't acknowledge it, therefore, meh, I'm good. And for me, if you ever owned a dog like that, they do that. They just go, eh whatever. I'm going to keep doing my thing. And so for me it was huge, because we get so stuck in a world of criteria, right? Criteria, criteria. Did they meet criteria? When in reality, when you think about it, it doesn't matter how much training your dog has. It doesn't matter if their weave poles are spotless, right? It doesn't matter any of that stuff. If your dog is in the wrong emotional state, that training will never show. So, what they're doing, is a lot of the dogs, they are trying so hard, but then they don't get rewarded and then that causes a lot of issues. So, that's why I always have kind of a graduated reward system that I do with my dogs. So, I'll use either lower value, higher value treats. To differentiate, I'll choose the way I play with the dog, and that way these dogs always get rewarded for that effort and I acknowledge those small changes in their behavior and I don't ask for too much too soon and I think that that keeps the dogs confident, it keeps them feeling like they're a champion, because that's very important if you want a dog to be confident and feel like they can conquer the world, you have to tell them that they can conquer the world. So, if they give you the smallest change, then you reward it and you have a dog that's going to try even harder the next time, and so for me that totally changed a lot of my training. Because before, an example would be if my dog didn't do six weave poles and let's say they were in a novice trial and they were baby dogs. I would be frustrated. And if they continuously did it, before I got this little nugget of information, I would go home and say okay my dog has a weave pole issue and I'm going to go train the weave. But in reality, is it a weave pole issue, or is it the fact that the dog's not emotionally right? Most likely it's because the dog's not emotionally right. So you actually have to deal with that. So what does that involve? It might involve the dog doing three weave poles and you clapping and having a party and leaving. But that's not to criteria. And so for me, it was just a huge eye opener that the dogs know how to do these skills. It's just we have to have them in the right emotional state so they can actually perform the behaviors that they've been taught. And that's just to me a cornerstone of what I think of when I'm training. So, it's just been huge for me to have that statement and understand that and apply it to all of my training. Melissa Breau: I think that's one of my favorite questions in the whole podcast because we always get such great responses. Totally different and fantastic, so thank you for that. Loretta Mueller: Cool. Yeah. Melissa Breau: And the last one is, who is someone else in the dog world that you look up to? Loretta Mueller: Again, I've had chances to work with so many people and I'm probably going to go outside of the box here, but for me it's going to be in the herding world. My mentor has been Kathy Knox, who's a border collie enthusiast and herding and sheep trials. She's the first person to really get into my head that there's always a reason the dog does something, and I think that's really important to understand, because we have a tendency to say, well they didn't do this and they didn't do that. But in reality, we should say, what are they doing? Because they're obviously doing something that you don't want them to do, so we have a focus on that and so there's always a reason they're doing stuff and for me, before I met Kathy, it was just like, do the thing that I tell you to do, right? And then it changed from there, and a lot of my students, I always tell them, if you can go to a natural clinician in the herding world, so somebody that just uses the dog and just uses the sheep, so no harnesses or ropes or anything like that, they are the most, in my opinion, talented clicker trainers you will ever witness. Their timing is amazing. They understand exactly how and when to reward and their placement of reward, it's not based on where they can put it, right? You can't just tell the sheep go over here to point B. They have to know at that exact moment when the sheep are right and what to do instantly to help the dog, or to reward the dog. And so, I always think in terms of, can you imagine if your reward had a mind of its own. Like trying to train a terrier with a live squirrel would be an analogy that would be quite fitting. And so, these people they have this amazing ability to teach these dogs using extremely high value reward that is instinctive that is bred into them and they can get these dogs to totally understand what behaviors they want and use that reward and their timing, and they're just, a good clinician. They're going to do just what I do when I go to a seminar. They're going to look at the dog. They're going to read the dog. They're going to figure out what the dog needs, and again, you change the dog, you change the person, and it's just an amazing thing and I think for me that's where the passion comes into play. It's just to see where…I always joke that it's like the dogs are sitting there trying to decipher things because dogs in agility read motion first and then they read verbal second. So verbals are a second language to them, and so they hear human, human, human, human, dog. So a person suddenly does something that they go, oh my gosh, right? So, if you've ever watched a movie that's been in a language you don't know and all of a sudden they say one word that you do know, it's like this sudden understanding. Wow. Oh, I get this. This is what you want. And so for me, that's the key is, I don't want to present the dogs with questions as far as handling goes. I want to present them only with answers so they say, okay, I've got this. There's no thinking required, and to me that's an important part of it and you can't present the dogs with answers in quite the best way possible if you don't understand what language the dogs are speaking. So suddenly, you start speaking dog, and these dogs just go, oh my goodness, thank you. And I see it every single weekend I teach. The dogs just changing and then the people change. I have people come in that you can tell they're ready to quit agility. You can tell that if this dog doesn't do something that's going to give them a little bit of hope, they're going to quit. And people always say, don't you get frustrated with that with people that are, you know? No, I don't get frustrated with them and the reason why is they just, they're at their wits end. They don't know what else to do. They're lost and they've tried everything. People have told them a big menagerie of what to do and none of it's worked. But a lot of times it's because people tell you to do stuff based on what? Human. And I'm trying to convey to people, learn dog, and it's so much easier. Everything becomes so much easier. Then these people do something, and usually it's a minor thing, like don't bend over, or make eye contact, or look at the right place, or use your hand this way, and you see the people who go into a situation and they're very worried and frustrated and you can see all of it just melt away. And it's just such a fascinating thing for me as an instructor to be able to help people on that level, and we're not talking just backyard enthusiasts or weekend warriors. We're talking world team people. It's all the same. It's these little things usually that cause the issues, and so for me, I've learned from herding clinicians and people like Kathy Knox and Ray Hunt that those little moments are the ones that really matter. Those are the moments where trust is built. Those are the moments that really open up that light for the dog to understand exactly what you want from them. And then, from there, all those little moments build up into a fully trained dog and so we have to concentrate on those tiny moments in time and we have to observe and pay attention so that we can get to where we want to go. Melissa Breau: Gee, that makes me kind of want to go see a herding seminar. Loretta Mueller: They're pretty cool. I'm telling you, it's pretty awesome. Melissa Breau: All right. Well thank you so much for joining me Loretta and thank you to our audience for tuning in. We'll be back in two weeks with a retired obedience judge, Nancy Gagliardi Little to talk about dog sports from a judge's perspective. If you haven't already, subscribe now on iTunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. CREDITS: Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzi for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty-free by BenSound.com; the track featured here is called “Buddy.” Audio editing provided by Chris Lang and transcription written by CLK Transcription Services. Thanks again for tuning in -- and happy training!

SHOW NOTES:  Summary: Competitive sports dog trainer and founder of FDSA Denise Fenzi talks about how she got into dog sports, her journey from traditional training to her current all positive approach, and more.  Links mentioned: Fenzi TEAM Training Site FREE Beyond the Backyard Instructors Guide Denise's other books via her website Next Episode:  To be released 1/6/2017, featuring Sarah Stremming    TRANSCRIPTION: Melissa Breau: This is Melissa Breau, and you're listening to the Fenzi Dog Sports podcast, brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy, an online school dedicated to providing high-quality instruction for competitive dog sports using only the most current and progressive training methods. Today we'll be talking to FDSA founder Denise Fenzi. Denise has competed in a wide range of dog sports, titling dogs in obedience, tracking, Schutzhund, Mondioring, herding, conformation, and agility. She is best-known for her flashy and precise obedience work, as demonstrated by two AKC OTCH dogs and perfect scores in both Schutzhund and Mondioring sport obedience. Her specialty is in developing motivation, focus, and relationship in competition dogs, and she has consistently demonstrated the ability to train and compete with dogs using motivational methods in sports where compulsion is the norm. Hi Denise, can you tell us a bit about the dogs you have known and what you're working on with them? Denise Fenzi: Hi Melissa, how are you? Melissa: Good. Denise: Good. I'm excited to do this. Yeah, I'll tell you. Let's see, I have three dogs here now. I have Raika, she's my oldest dog, she's 12½ and she is retired and mostly spends her days hanging out with me and going for long walks. That's what she wants to do now. My two younger dogs are Lyra, she's also a Belgian Tervuren, and Brito, who's a little mixed-breed, and I primarily train them to learn new things. So I do a lot of play skills with them, I do a lot of obedience with them. I just use them as, I want to say sample dogs, that's not quite the word I want. But I like to experiment with them and try out new things. And right now I'm sort of in a coaching phase of my life more than a competitive phase of my life, so I'm not actually sure if or when I'll compete. I have done some of the TEAM obedience levels with both of them, and I think they both have a TEAM Two title, [but] I'd have to look. And at some point if I get inspiration I'm going to keep going. So those are my dogs.   Melissa: So I know it wasn't on the list of questions I sent over, but do you want to briefly just tell us a little bit more about TEAM? Denise: Oh, TEAM is Training Excellence Assessment Modules, and it's the new obedience program that we started for people who want to compete via video and with more emphasis on quality of training and less about the competitive environment. So anybody who wants can look it up at fenziteamtitles.com. It's, in my opinion, an extremely well-designed program and worth taking a look at. Denise: Yeah, my parents showed dogs, and I'm 48, so I was sort of born into it. They actually competed with Lhasa Apsos in obedience, which is _____ (3.23).  I know my parents got a CDX on a Lhasa Apso; it took 23 shows. I think their final show was a 171 1/2, but they did it. So I give them credit for that. It was kind of an ugly way of getting titles back then, it was uglier to watch, but they did it. Melissa: So is that what originally got you into dog sports? Denise: Yes, I guess I inherited it. When I was about 10 I raised a couple of guide dog puppies, and my parents said that if I did that then I could have a dog of my own. So my first dogs were Shelties, because they had to be small dogs. And I just sort of went from there. Melissa: What got you started with positive training? Denise Fenzi: Well, I had been competing in AKC obedience for a long time, and then I decided to try IPO. And when I went over and watched the IPO training at that time, which would have been, I don't know, 20 years ago now I guess I started, I was kind of appalled actually, because they were using so much compulsion and such poor training that my reaction was to go the opposite way. And so I felt obligated to use as little as little as possible and to be successful. But I still absolutely would have called myself a balanced trainer, and I absolutely used compulsion with that dog. He did end up a Schutzhund III. But I did my best to minimize it. And then as time went on I found that I became a better trainer, and I wouldn't say I was trying not to use compulsion so much as just becoming a better trainer and needing less and less. Also, I had some good dogs, that really helps, that were cooperative. And I continued to use compulsion with my student dogs well after I stopped myself. And actually I was thinking about that recently, looking back, why was that? I think I was using it to compensate for my lack of ability to communicate with the humans who owned the dogs how to be better trainers, so it was a bit of an out for me. It's much easier to say, “Correct your dog when the dog sniffs,” than to take the time to try to figure out why the dog is sniffing and then adjust your training, i.e. my training, to get the handler to do it correctly. And so I did use compulsion there, and I can actually look back and see why I did that and also really how under the particular circumstances how unfair it was, because both of those corrections almost certainly were the result of the dog showing displacement behaviors. And then I taught seminars as I traveled; because those weren't my personal students I didn't feel as vested in the same way in the entire process. And so it was pretty obvious when I would walk in that the problems were handler-generated, and so I never got around to correcting the dogs, I was pretty busy correcting the handlers. And after a year of that, seminar after seminar realizing I was never correcting the dogs at all, that I never even got around to the dogs, then it started to be a philosophical thing. And that's when I started looking at it and saying, there's something wrong with holding the dog responsible when in every single case I can look at the situation and see how the handler caused it, and that's when I switched. And that was sort of interesting. Because in terms of solving problems, if you come in with a philosophical point of view and you don't decide that you have the option of reverting to compulsion if you get stuck, I can tell you your ability to problem solve will skyrocket, because it's not sitting there any more as an option. And you get a lot more clever, and you learn to think much more broadly. So it's actually a very good thing for me in my training. Melissa: It always seems easier to train the dog than to train the people. Sometimes the people are definitely the hardest part. Denise: That's true. Melissa: So you kind of mentioned your training philosophy now. Do you want to just describe that a little more for us and tell us kind of how you approach training now? Denise: Well, I think most of us continue to evolve over time, and there's no question that I continue to evolve. Right now I really am looking at dogs a little bit differently. For me it's less than what can the dog do for me to humor me, so I like to do dog sports. So rather than thinking, how can I get the dog to do this for me, I'm more in a place of, how can I get to a point where I can enjoy my time with this dog? And instead of thinking, how can [I set up the] environment so that time spent with me is the best part of their day I'm thinking more, how can I become important to this dog so they want to do things with me? And at first it may sound the same, getting the dog on my team as opposed to me joining their team, but if you think about it you start to realize it's not the same. So I'm perfectly happy to spend time with my young terrier who loves to hunt lizards, and I will sit with him in his little lizard territory telling him, “Did you see that one? Did you look over there?” It's a lot of fun, it really is. It sounds odd, but it's a lot of fun. And I think when I do that with him, I think it creates a really nice place for both of us that makes me appreciate him for who he really is. And then I think he's more willing to play my games. And so it's very much a relationship-based way of thinking about dog training, and sometimes this is hard for people to understand. But I really believe that if your dog genuinely likes you because you are interested in them and because you make their life more interesting, I think that skyrockets what the dog is capable of doing for you. So it's not because the rest of your life is miserable that you want to spend time with me. My dogs have great lives, they have a lot of freedom. I think it's because we just like doing stuff together and it's really fun. So if you can get that relationship down, like I tell people, if you can get your dog to play with you, just run and play and be silly, your dog will start to look at you more, which is really interesting. It's not a trained response at all, it's because we look at others that we enjoy. And that's true with people too. So for example with my older son, he's 16 now, and so he's getting into that, well, independent's not the word I want, but perfectly happy to lock himself in his room sort of phase. And recently he sent me by message text a game, and it's pool, billiards. And he had done a turn, and then says, “Next.” And so when I opened it up it showed me his turn, and then I had a chance to play back. So then I played, and then I sent it back to him. And so we do this, and it's not because I have some great interest in playing pool via text with my son. But what means a lot to me is that he wants me to do that with him. It's something we can do together. So while it would not be my first choice, you bet I respond when he sends me those. And then what I find is, it changes how he interacts with me in general. So that when I need things from him, I think because we have that baseline relationship that we're trying to maintain even as he gets older, I think it allows us to have a better relationship in general, not just about what I want or what he wants. And so I think that dogs are very similar, that if you can find a way to just simply be generically important to them, and accepting, and forgiving, and have a little give and take… You don't always have to get your way. What a concept. It's okay. Your dog does not go through life trying to manipulate you. And I think really internalizing that would sum up where I am right now in terms of how I see training. Melissa: So I know that you kind of touched on this a little bit there with your son, but we've talked before about just the impacts that your training beliefs have had on your other relationships. Do you want to talk a little more about that? I know you've said it's influenced almost all of your relationships, including with your parents and things like that. Denise: It's been probably the most significant thing that's happened in my entire life. When I changed how I trained dogs, you have to be pretty obtuse not to recognize that we all learn the same way. And if you're a positive trainer with dogs and you really emphasize catching what they do right and ignoring what they do wrong, I mean, you really have to choose not to think about it, to realize that exactly the same thing is true with people. So for example both of my kids have very good manners, and I know how that came about in part. One thing is, I'm simply a respectful person and I encourage that. But I remember our first outings to restaurants when they were smaller, and if they would order for themselves, and they would say please and show nice manners, the second that person would walk away from the table I would say to my husband who'd be there, “I am so proud that we have kids who are so respectful and have such good manners. It makes me happy to go places with them.” And you could almost see the difference the next time that opportunity came up again, you could almost see them go just a little bit further with their good manners. And it's not something I comment on any more, because they're older, they're 12 and 16, but they do it by habit. And I know that some part of their brain is always aware of it. So I've never said to them “Say please, say thank you,” I don't tell them what to do, but when it happened I really worked to catch those moments and acknowledge them. And I think dog training is a lot easier than child training, that's just my perspective. But I try to work with that, and I try not to think in terms of getting my kids to go to school and do well because I've restricted the rest of their lives, and I try to think in terms of balance and cooperation. Of course with people you can talk things out more. But at the end of the day if you're having any kind of conflict with another person, whether it's a family member or some random person you see on the street, the question I ask myself now is, do I want to feel better or do I want to change behavior? So if I want to feel better I may well behave badly, I may yell. I do yell, by the way. I do yell at my children, I do yell at my dogs. I know some people say, “That's amazing you do, you're not supposed to do that.” Well that's great, I'm glad you're all there. I'm not, so I will yell, “Get off the couch,” or whatever. I'm not really training, I'm expressing my upsetness. So that's, do I want to feel better? Yes, I'm going to yell. Or somebody irritates me on the street because their dog runs up to mine and is off-leash, and so maybe I'm having a particularly bad day, and I might respond inappropriately. But then the second question is, do I want to change behavior? And I think recognizing that those are different things is really important because never, ever, ever am I yelling if I want to change behavior, and never am I talking to somebody like they're dumb, or ignorant, or anything, because it's all perspective, because they just have a different perspective. So maybe they don't understand that their off-leash dog running up to my old dog is a problem. And the reason it's a problem is, my dog is old and she doesn't like other dogs jumping on her. And I've had much better luck saying, “I know your dog is friendly, but my dog is very old and she has a lot of arthritis. And when your dog comes up like that it really scares her, and it hurts her.” And when I say that, without fail they apologize and they put their dogs on a leash. And I smile, I'm not angry. I might be inside, but I don't show it. The next time I see them we continue with a pleasant set of interactions. And that kind of thinking, do I want to feel better or do I want to change behavior, has been really quite impactful, whether in my family or with people. We often talk about with our dogs, sometimes dog trainers are a lot nicer to their dogs than people. I find that very incongruent, and I don't like to live my life that way. I like my life to make sense. And I think we need to be very aware of not only how we treat our pets but show that same courtesy to each other, and I find that from there I am a happier person. Because when you are kind with people instead of getting your emotions from stewing in your, "oh my God, I can't believe how stupid that person is," that I understand that we take pleasure in those periods of time when we feel superior to other people, because I guess that's where that comes from, I understand that. But it is a short-lived and negative form of emotion, and in the long run it leaves you feeling worse about the world. Whereas when you take the time to think about things from somebody else's point of view, I find that that leads to an understanding, and honestly that makes my life a lot better. It makes me a more pleasant and happy person, so that has a lot of value.   Melissa: That kind of transitions us really nicely into my next question, which was going to be, what led you to start FDSA, the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy? And I want to say kind of before you respond to that, that I think that that's part of the reason that there's been such a fantastic community kind of that's grown up around the school, is just because you have that belief and it spreads through the other teachers and the students. It's really created a really welcoming community for dog sports competitors. Now that I've gotten a little ahead of myself, so what did lead you to start the school? Denise: It was a numbers thing. If I spend a half-hour with one person I can work with one person for half an hour. Online, if I can do it well, then I can spend a half-hour with a much greater number of people. And we each have our own drivers in life, and one of my big drivers is, I want to see change in the dog sports community, and that's very important to me. So to be able to affect a large number of people as opposed to a small number of people was very appealing to me. The school in many ways has just sort of exceeded any expectations I could have possibly had, in many ways. But probably one of the most valuable is, I did not recognize what would happen in terms of the culture, not just with each other. There's a second culture that people wouldn't really know about, and that's the one among the instructors. The way they interact with each other, the way they talk on the mailing list, the support they offer is extraordinary. And I see the same thing with the students, the way they interact. And there really is a sense that your accomplishments mean a lot to you, and everybody else is willing to honor that. So if you figured out how to teach your dog to lay down and it's the first time you ever did that, I find that people are just as excited about that for you as another person who went to a dog show and got maybe a high in trial. Because we're each at a different place in what we value. And I think people have really internalized that, and it is extraordinary. I get a fair number of e-mails from people saying thank you for something or the other, maybe with their dog. But the ones I value the most are the ones where people say, “Over time I started to recognize that the same things we do with our dogs work with each other, and I have become kinder to myself, kinder to people around me, and you know, generally I'm just a much happier person.” That's enormous. And starting an online dog training school I really never saw that one coming. I didn't realize how that could work out like that, and it's been really amazing for me. Melissa: Yeah, I mean, the community's probably one of the few places online where even controversial topics are handled very politely. And people honor each other's opinions and honor each other's thoughts, and they don't break down into insults and arguments, at least not that I've seen yet. Denise: No, it's amazing. I mean, it's not that it's perfect. We have a few thousand members, so you're always going to have differences. But I find that people have become quite good at saying, “This has been my experience, and this is my feelings,” as opposed to, “You're dumb and stupid for thinking that.” And I know that people don't mean to come across that way, but sometimes the online communities, all of them, people simply write and don't think too carefully about how what they just said might be interpreted by another person. And within the alumni group or within the Academy group I find an awareness of considering how you phrase things. And anyway the reality is, if you want to change behavior it's the same thing I said earlier. It may make you feel better to say, “You're dumb to think that way,” but you won't change behavior. If you say, “This has been my experience,” now you might actually change behavior, but you have to give up being self-righteous, and that's not always what people have in mind. Melissa: So I know that we wanted to talk about some of the other stuff you've been working on too. FDSA isn't the only thing you've created in the last few years. So you have another new book coming out. I don't know if you want to take a minute and tell us about some of the books that you already have out and then the new book, or if you just want to talk about the new book. I'll leave that up to you. Denise: Oh, so many. I didn't even know I was such a writer until I started writing, and now I can't stop writing. I've written seven, I'm actually looking at them. Four of them I wrote with Deb Jones, that's the Dog Sports Skills Series. Those are all generic to all dog sports but provide a really nice foundation for dog training. I wrote a book called Beyond the Back Yard, which was targeted at the pet market to help them understand how to get from the point of cookie in the hand in the kitchen and hoping for the best to actually getting some very cooperative real-world obedience. That book has done very well, and a lot of people are using it to teach their classes, which makes me very happy. It does have a free instructor's guide to go with it. And then I wrote Blogger Dog, Brito!, which is about Brito. It's, well, I'm going to say a true story, but keep in mind the dog wrote it, so take that with a grain of salt. And it's designed for about a fourth grade audience to read to themself. And if a person reads it they will learn quite a bit about dog behavior without learning that they learned about dog behavior, which was really what I had in mind. And then my newest book is Train the Dog in Front of You. I would call that my personal pet book, and what I mean is, it is how I feel about training and dogs. I feel that every dog is very unique, and I tried hard to find dimensions that people could work with to say, is your dog more secure, more cautious, more handler-focused, more environmental, and then offered suggestions for how to work with a dog based on those qualities. Actually I'm running a class online right now on that topic. And as you might expect there are many, many nontraditional breeds in that class, and I actually find it extremely interesting to watch different dogs behave in different ways under different circumstances. So you can see some of the dogs do a lot with their eyes. They stare when they go to a park. And other dogs' noses never come off the ground when they go to a park. And other dogs air sniff the whole time they're at the park. And other dogs just jump on their owners. And all of these things are really quite relevant to how you train your dog. So if you understand that your dog's dominant sense is going to be sniffing you might be better off training in a shopping center, whereas another dog that has a lot of pressure issues with people in buildings would be much better off in a big open park than in a shopping center. So thinking that way is very interesting to me. And I hope a lot of dog sports people pick this book up, because I think it has a lot to offer. Melissa: I mean, having had a chance to read an advance copy of the book I think it's a fantastic guide, even just as a thought exercise to think through kind of where your dog falls on some of those different meters, and what they are closer to than other things, and what traits are more true for your personal dog than others. Just to kind of give people a little more sense of what's inside the book, do you mind talking about any one of your dogs that you want, just kind of where they fall on some of those spectrums? Denise: In the first chapter I actually did go through the dogs. Well, Brito is, he's the little terrier dog of mine, he's about 10 pounds. He's a small dog. But he's very terrier, he's classic terrier. He's not handler-focused. So if I take him somewhere his nose goes down, he doesn't do a lot of looking with his eyes, he uses his nose. He does very little air sniffing, it's to the ground. Vegetative surfaces, he will not look back at me, it doesn't cross his mind for 15, 20 minutes. He is not what we'd call naturally handler-focused when he's in a new environment. But there's a piece that goes with that. He's also a very confident and social dog, so he likes people, he's confident with people. He's a little careful with dogs. They're big and that makes him nervous. He's also got a little bit of that terrier behavior, so he can get kind of puffed-up. And if he sees aggression around him he'll go there fast, so I keep an eye on that. And in some ways a dog like that is the polar opposite of Raika, my oldest dog who's here. Raika's always liked to be with me, she just does, it doesn't matter where I go. And actually I had to go to some trouble to teach her to look around, which is something I talk about in the book. Why would I do that? Why would I teach her to stop staring at me? It was a very good decision. And she does get nervous about people and dogs, whereas Brito, it just wouldn't happen to him. And knowing these things about them does make a difference, because Raika, I just take her to a park, I can take her anywhere and work with her, and that's easy and makes sense. But it also means that she needs different sorts of preparations for trial than he does. So if I really want to work him around distractions I would be inclined to go to a shopping center, because then I don't have to deal with grass. But at the same time if I want to compete with him outdoors, knowing who he is allows me to pick a middle environment, maybe not grass but maybe not cement, that allow us to go in that direction. So let's say a parking area, which is cement, near a vegetated area like with a forest or field, so that gives us some in-between. That kind of helps me think that way. I don't sit down and actually consciously go through it any more, it's just something that sort of happens in my head. And in the book I talk about case studies, more so in the online class. I put up case studies of specific dogs that I've worked with. But after a while you start to see packages, you just start to notice that dogs that tend to be a little more insecure are a little more likely to look to their owners. You start looking for stuff like that, and it helps you make a plan about which direction to try with the dog. And it also helps you recognize when you've made a bad decision so that you can back up, turn around, and try something else. Melissa: So to kind of bring things to a little bit of a close I have three last questions, kind of quicker questions. So the first one is, what's the dog-related accomplishment that you're proudest of? Denise: My second OTCH dog had a fairly complete meltdown about a third of the way into her OTCH, and I could not resolve that. I didn't know what to do, so I retired her for about a year-and-a-half. And while she was retired I finished an OTCH on a different dog. So she must have been, I don't know, I want to say eight, maybe nine years old. And I just kept thinking about what I now knew, because I had learned a lot, we're always learning, and I decided to try again. And I thought that we had lots of time to actually pursue the OTCH, because it does take a bit of time, and it helps to have a young and very fit dog. And I just felt that her jumping days were going to be wrapping up soon, and so I decided to go back into competition with a different goal. I simply wanted to see if I could stay connected with her and keep the stress out of the picture just for one exercise, and just for two exercises. Could I do this? And I went in with such a different mindset. It was really no longer about finishing the title, I was no longer frustrated, and she finished her OTCH in two months. So just my changing my way of thinking, and it was really amazing. I will tell you that when you hit about 90 points it gets a little hard to say, “Oh gee, I'm just doing this for fun,” but I managed to keep myself under control with it. I'm very proud of that, because it was hard, and I think hard things are always a bigger accomplishment. Melissa: And what's the best piece of training advice that you've ever heard? Denise: It's just behavior. So there's an expression, it's just behavior. When something is happening in front of you it doesn't mean deep and horrible things, it doesn't mean your dog hates you, it doesn't mean you're never going to be successful, it doesn't mean much of anything. It just means it's behavior. The dog just showed you something, and it has roots from where? Maybe an emotion. But it's not more than that. And that is why most of us when we're training our own dogs, everything is so big and magnified. So your dog goes around the broad jump and, "oh my God." "It's oh my God, what am I going to do? It's over." And we obsess and we stress, and we train and we train on the poor thing and the poor dog, and it's very hard to walk away. Whereas an outsider looks at it and says, “I have no idea what you're getting so worked up about. Your dog went around the jump. It's not a big deal, it's not the end of the world, and it doesn't mean it's going to keep happening.” And I think that expression, it's just behavior, really helps us remember that it's not worth quite that much energy. It just happened, it's okay. Move on, train. Melissa: That in some ways seems to sum up your philosophy almost as well as some of your other answers. Denise: That's true. Melissa: So for our last question, who is somebody else in the dog world that you look up to? Denise: There are actually a lot of trainers out there that I really respect. I've often said I don't think I'm a great dog trainer. I think I'm a pretty good dog trainer. I think what I do well is not dig a grave. I mean, if I see I'm starting a hole I back out of it. Whereas there are a lot of other trainers out there who I think are much better than I am at not starting the hole in the first place. So I can't go with just skills, because there's lots of people who are more skilled. So I think I'm going to say Suzanne Clothier, and the reason is, I have a lot of respect for her ability to look at the situation, the dog, the person, the whole picture, and stand back, and get an overview on what's happening, and then communicate that in a way that people can understand. So I really respect that. And she's been around for a long time, much longer than I would say it's been popular to be a force-free trainer. And she's been at it for really some time, and I appreciate that, and I appreciate her honesty and her ability to communicate what I think sometimes people need to hear that might not be very comfortable without getting stuck in how we're supposed to do things. So I think that's my answer. Melissa: All right. Well, thank you so much, Denise. It's been awesome to chat, it's been a lot of fun. Denise: Thank you. I am excited to see who comes after me. Melissa: Well, let me get to that. So for all of our brand-new listeners, since this is our first official podcast, thank you for tuning in, and we'll be back in two weeks. We'll be back with Sarah Stremming. She's the founder of Cognitive Canine, and we'll be talking about over-arousal in sports dogs. If you haven't already, subscribe now on iTunes or the podcast app of your choice, and you'll have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. In the meantime, happy training. CREDITS: Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzi for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty-free by BenSound.com; the track featured here is called “Buddy.” Audio editing provided by Chris Lang and transcription written by CLK Transcription Services. Thanks again for tuning in -- and happy training!

On this episode of Level to Power, we’re joined by professional wrestler, management consultant, landlord, insurance broker, proud father, ad “sexual being” Aaron Fenzi, otherwise known in the ring as Mr. Thursday Night. We discuss the hidden power dynamics within the world of professional wrestling, and how you can use the showmanship and camaraderie of the sport to inspire success within your own professional industry. LTP 010 - The Wrestler: The TAO of Aaron Fenzi from the LevelToPower Blog