Podcasts about so speaker

On this episode we get to meet and listen to Sydney Elaine Butler. I definitely believe Sydney is unstoppable for many reasons. First, growing up she had a speech disability as she will describe to us. Also, however, along the way she was diagnosed with other disabilities including being on the autism spectrum. Like all of us who are different from the “norm” Sydney had her share of challenges from others. However, she learned to deal with them and move forward.   In college she decided to get a degree in business and eventually she determined to enter the human resources field. After being out of college for only a bit over a year and during the time of the pandemic, Sydney formed her own company, Accessible Creates. She consults with companies and company leaders primarily about disabilities and she helps to create better retention and overall attitudinal environments for employees with disabilities.   We discuss many of the issues faced in the workplace and beyond by people with disabilities. I believe you will find Sydney's views and attitudes quite refreshing and often innovative. I hope Sydney has offered some takeaways you can use in your own worlds.       About the Guest:   HR Professional | Founder, Speaker, and HR/DEIA Consultant at Accessible Creates | DEIB Facilitator | They/Them Pronouns   It is Sydney's understanding that their professional purpose must be to ensure that everyone has the opportunity to be successful regardless of barriers in their way and that they must as a professional remove these barriers. Sydney conducts training and consulting for other companies on how to be more Accessible and Inclusive from a Human approach and how to recruit and retain more diverse individuals through the lens of Intersectionality/Human Resources as well as other areas of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion in an authentic manner at the company they founded called Accessible Creates due to understanding the barriers that exist within the workplace for diverse individuals.   Ways to connect with Sydney:   https://linktr.ee/sydneyelainebutler Website: https://www.accessiblecreates.ca/   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Well and a gracious hello to you, wherever you happen to be today, I am Michael Hingson, and you are listening to unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected mean, and it's deliberately called that, as I've explained a few times before, because most of the time when people talk about diversity, they never talk about disabilities. They talk about sexual orientation and gender and race and so on, but disabilities get left out. In fact, I talked to one person on this podcast who said, when I observed you don't mention disabilities. Oh, that social justice. It isn't the same. Heck, it's not anyway. Leaving that aside for the moment. Our guest today is someone I've been looking forward to chatting with for a while. In her name is Sydney. Elaine Butler, and Sydney is in Canada, and she has formed a company actually called accessible creates Cindy. Sydney is very familiar with disability. She has some and I'll leave that to her, to you know, to talk about, but she brings an empathy and understanding. I think that's extremely important, and that all of you will appreciate listening to. So let's get on with it. And Sydney, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset and really glad you're here.   Sydney Elaine Butler ** 02:43 Thank you so much for having me. Michael, well,   Speaker 1 ** 02:46 it's my pleasure, and we're really glad that you're able to finally get here. We've been working on this for a while, and we've had to postpone a few times. Sydney's had one thing or another going on, but that's okay. We, we, we are unstoppable, so we always find a way to succeed, right? Exactly. Well, why don't you tell us a little bit, maybe, about the early Sydney, growing up and some of those things. Yes, to start at   Sydney Elaine Butler ** 03:11 the beginning, right? Oh, where do I start? Um, so growing up, I first knew I had a speech impediment, and so I couldn't say my R's properly, and sometimes I would speak too fast. Sometimes still do tell me to slow down if I need to, but I sometimes I wouldn't speak because I was too scared to say my R is wrong and to speak too quickly. And so I had to go to speech therapy from a young age, and didn't understand that it was really different. You know, I just realized that all my other classmates living class to go do this, but it was mindful, and it's what I knew. I also walked on my tippy toes a lot. So then I had to start going to physical therapy, and I was also playing soccer, and my parents told me a lot of different things to get me active and to get out there. And then we also the Girl Guides of Canada, which is like, equivalent to Girl Scouts in America. And so I enjoyed that, and that's when I started to really find, find my voice and find what I'd like to do, and start becoming more outgoing and starting to exploit when things   Speaker 1 ** 04:27 Ah, okay, so was the speech impediment a manifestation of something else or what?   Sydney Elaine Butler ** 04:36 Yeah, so my dad also had a speech impediment growing up. I think it was just, it wasn't, I think in hindsight, it was tied to my neurodivergency, but didn't really know what that meant at the time, and at the time, we've seen a separate and knew that, I think a lot of people think that the speech impediments, i. Or something you go out of and think about a lot of kids have speech impediments, and so sometimes now it still manifests as I stutter sometimes, because then my brain goes too fast and my mouth can't catch up. Yeah. And so just realizing that my brain thinks a little differently, and I think that had a part to   Speaker 1 ** 05:17 play in well. So along the way, you discovered that you were also involved with other disabilities, I guess,   Speaker 2 ** 05:25 yes, and so I think I also I kind of had depression when I was in high school. And so I think that led to me not knowing, you know, if I wanted to be alive or not, frankly. And so back to other disabilities and understanding that all these different things. So like, I felt like had to almost do the camouflage and blend in to like, for example, I say, would hang out with the nerds and be more nerdy, or hanging over the jocks and be more of a jock. And it didn't really have a sense of self. I think that played a role in that, in my mental health and being having other disabilities.   Michael Hingson ** 06:08 How did your parents handle all of that?   Speaker 2 ** 06:12 I think they just treated me as you know, their child, you know, and they, for example, they would want me to go on to teach therapy. Oh, I need physical therapy now, because I'm walking my tippy toes and my my calf were too tight. And so they just did the best they could, and tried, you know, a lot of people, I think they never tried Kindle that was different. They just okay, this is what city needs to do the best and he can. And so I am very thankful for them for that, because I never felt like I was different. I just knew I had needed to get different things to be successful, but I didn't really know the details and the depth of what was happening.   Speaker 1 ** 06:55 When, when did you figure all of that out? Or when did doctors or whatever, finally come up with a diagnosis that made sense.   Speaker 2 ** 07:05 Yeah, I think when my after, shortly after, I started college, and I was like, kind of, I'm still living at home, but really think that kind of becoming more independent, seeing that I could do some things I could do really well, and other things I was struggling with, and then going to the doctors, explaining the things I was experiencing, and really understanding that, oh, okay, this and that, you know, finding out what is happening with me and how to best help myself and help and being patient with myself. Because I think a lot of times you can get so frustrated because you don't know exactly what's wrong, but you know something's wrong. And so I think by getting that, helping doctors, and getting help, even just expressing my limitations, and also I was, at the same time myself, helping kids, teens and hours with disabilities, and I related to them so much. And so I think that's what prompted me to go to the doctors in the first place and be like, I relate more to this population. Why is this and why am I so good at my job working with these individuals, we were others that I felt like, I was like, don't and so just seeing that, oh, yeah, that makes more sense, that, you know, autistic and all these different things that make up who I am,   Speaker 1 ** 08:22 right? So how long ago was it that you were in college?   Speaker 2 ** 08:28 I was so I was in college. I started in 2015 okay? And I graduated in 2018 and then I went to university from 2018 to 2020 because my college actually offered, the university offered a duty completion program, and so that was really beneficial. So   Speaker 1 ** 08:46 you were fairly recent in in the process, I've had some people on unstoppable mindset who were in their 30s before someone was able to accurately diagnose that they were different because they had autism, and I know that it is, for example, autism, and I know that for the longest time, people just didn't know how to to understand it or describe it. So at least in a sense, I guess although it still took a while for them to figure out with you still it was, it was better that it happened now than years ago when they weren't able to explain it or or even really understand it.   Speaker 2 ** 09:32 Yeah, and I think this is misconception that I think previously in the years, like you said, it was more like either there was very specific criteria around what they thought autism was, but now we understand it's a spectrum and how it impacts, you know, people that you know, males versus females. And so I think it's like, oh, you know, the lack of empathy is seen associated with autism. But like you said at the beginning, I have lots of empathy. And I think have hyper empathy, you should have to use a thing in females that are autistic.   Speaker 1 ** 10:07 Okay, so what did you get your college and university degrees in?   Speaker 2 ** 10:13 Yeah, so I studied Business Administration, human resources. So my aunt actually, she was human resources on a cruise ship. And I thought at first, when I was applying for university and in college, I because at college first, because I thought I was actually going to be environmentalist, because I high level. I've always wanted to change the world. So I thought, you know, with climate change and global warming was like, I want to be an advocate and talk about, you know, what's it better do to help the planet? But I didn't have the math grades for that. That was one of my strong suits and so. But I also took business as an elective in school. Like, oh, this seems like an interesting elective. I'll take it, and actually did quite well in it. And I like people helping people. And I thought, you know human resources, even though we know they mostly help the employer, I can also help people in the workplace. And there's so many different diverse aspects of human resources. And so that's why I decided to study human resources in school.   Michael Hingson ** 11:18 You just avoided the math part of business, huh?   Speaker 2 ** 11:20 There is, there was still math in business. But it's funny because I actually took statistics during my college and that that math made a lot of sense to me, like my brain. I became a statistics tutor, actually, and it was so funny seeing the one eight, the 180 of how I did math in high school versus how? And now I'm doing math while also paying for COVID Now,   Speaker 1 ** 11:46 well, at least you made it through, yes, which is, which is pretty cool. So when you, when you got out of college and university, what did you do? How soon? Well, let me just ask, What did you do? Start with that. So   Speaker 2 ** 12:05 I graduated from university in 2020, December, and so that was quite a challenge, as you can imagine, because I was actually supposed to have an internship that summer, and then the world shut down. And I remember I had an interview on my mom's birthday, March 18, which is the day the world shut down. And then they sent me an email that Friday and said, if it wasn't for the pandemic, for what's the COVID variant of the COVID virus that's going around, you would be getting the shop. This is a tip, but unfortunately, now we're closing our doors because of the pandemic. Yeah? And that was very frustrating, because I was like, I could have had this traditional and it was HR. Was it HR position mixed with statistics, and I just mentioned my love of statistics. And so it was going to be perfect, right? But it didn't happen. And so then I had another interview the last week of before I graduated from my degree. And again, I said, if you just had a little bit more experience in human resources, you would have got the job. And so if I got that job back when I had the internship, I would have bought this job. And I was very frustrated and but I didn't let that stop me. I was like, Okay, what kind of HR jobs do I want to have? What impact do I want to leave on human resources? Because right now, the market is a mess. You know, a lot of people losing their jobs and don't have jobs and love companies are still closed from the pandemic, because we're still very much in the thick of it in December of 2020, and so I started attending human resource webinars, volunteering with other we actually have a local HR association here where you can get your designation from, and I was part of it, and they got a discount because I was a student not too long ago. And instead of volunteering with them, seeing how I consist, and then they actually had a big conference, and I met someone there that helped them. He had to take down 500 emails. He's like, Oh, can you take down 500 emails? Because we're not going to finish this webinar on time. Can you take down 500 emails? And I'm there, kind of with my new COVID Puppy in bed, because I didn't have my camera on, just taking down all the emails. He said, Oh, can you send it to me? And so I sent him the email. And so actually worked at the HR startup. He had a little bit because he messaged me. He's like, I'm impressed that you took down this email so fast. Do you want to come work at an HR startup with me? And at the time, new grad, wanted to get my feet wet. Want to see what happens. And so I joined there, um, but he was bootstrapping, and so he can only pay me peanuts, basically. And I was also, he's, like, he's, I encourage you to look for traditional work, but you can also get getting some experience here. I. And so I did that. And then also, then I actually applied for summer job, virtually and remotely, for a nonprofit organization called Skills for change. And I was like, I'm passionate about accessibility and disability inclusion and HR and human resources. And I was their HR clerk for eight weeks because the Canadian government actually paid for it. They have a Canada Summer Jobs Program, but they gained funding, and I made the recruitment process more accessible. I during Obama's session, I talked about disability pride month, because I was there during Disability Pride Month, and really that I posted that on LinkedIn and some research like, Hey, do you want to come speak about neurodiversity in the workplace? I saw your presentation that you posted on LinkedIn, and I was like, okay, so I did that. And I really liked doing presentations and so and then I realized I could do more by starting my own company. I applied for a traditional job still, but maybe I can get my foot in the door by starting my own company doing little trainings about HR, disability inclusion, neurodiversity. What does that look like? And, yeah,   Speaker 1 ** 16:15 so when did you so that's how you started accessible creates.   Speaker 2 ** 16:18 It was kind of informally starting accessible creates, you know, just like, it was kind of like planting the seed, I say. But then it was just like, I also, I was like, maybe I can make like, wellness bracelets as well. And like, they all these different things, and make fidget toys, and have all these different proponents. And then it kind of branched off to okay, I can do presentations. Oh, I think people also looking for consultants that have a unique skill set to look at policies and procedure, to look at job descriptions. And so it kind of took off into a world of itself,   Speaker 1 ** 16:53 all right, well, and so you're, you're still doing it.   Speaker 2 ** 16:59 Yes, it's going to be three years a month from today, actually. Wow, August 31   Michael Hingson ** 17:06 Wow. It'll be how long on August 31   17:09 two years, three years, which is cool.   Speaker 1 ** 17:13 Well, so you're, you're obviously having some, some good success with it.   Speaker 2 ** 17:20 I feel very lucky, but I'm also like, the amount of nos you get as a business owner or someone just trying to put your services out there, like, this is what I have to offer. And so I feel you're so lucky. You got all these opportunities on like, the amount of people that say no to me, or, you know, the things you don't see behind the scenes. And so just keeping at it and building my network and building my connections is so important. And so and finding people, I think sometimes, as business owners and entrepreneurs, we want to help everyone, but we can't help everyone, right? And so finding that niche, okay, who can I really support here in this area?   Speaker 1 ** 17:59 So what are you finding? Are the areas or the kinds of places where you specialize?   Speaker 2 ** 18:05 Yeah, I found like, because, again, I have that human resources background and so leveraging that. I think it's funny because when I first started it as, okay, my I'm going to do, I was kind of advertising as I have HR knowledge with like, also have this expertise of disability understanding, disability inclusion, accessibility in neurodiversity. And now it's kind of been like, now people like, Oh, you're the neuro diversity person that talks about neurodiversity there in Canada or talks about disability inclusion. I can also do human resource consulting. They're like, oh, we need an HR consultant, but we want to sprinkle in those other things. And so people that are looking for that niche is really cool and really impactful, and also looking at policies and procedures, I think is because it's a huge undertaking and to really and so finding the niche of clients that they know they need to modify the policies and procedures, but they just kind of overwhelmed, and don't know where to start. And so that's where I come in, yeah.   Speaker 1 ** 19:08 And so you're able to help create policy or modify policy. And yes, what's, what's probably, would you say the biggest misconception that you have encountered when you're dealing with companies regarding the whole idea of disabilities,   Speaker 2 ** 19:26 yeah, I think the biggest misconception is that it's only the entry level position that people with disabilities want jobs, especially because actually most people with disabilities that actually were more likely to get post secondary education and to continue getting educated. And so it's really interesting to see the bias that employers have against people with disabilities. And think, Oh, you get, you know, this funding from the government to help, you know, pay people with disabilities that can't work, but that's not enough money. They're like, Oh, that's enough money you can live on that you can. Live on that and really understanding that if someone wants to work, they should be able to work. And that accommodation is not you getting more to do your job, it's leveling the playing field to make sure you can do your job and be successful at your job, and everyone deserves that. And   Speaker 1 ** 20:17 how are you able to change attitudes and perceptions about that?   Speaker 2 ** 20:24 Yeah, I really kind of challenge like, Oh, what do you currently think of disability, you know, and really making them think internally and like, you don't have to say it out loud. You don't have to, you know, just getting them thinking, why do you have this misconception of disability? What does what disability representation Have you seen in media, right? And so what really challenging what they think of when they think of disability. And so I remember, I was actually talking about HR strategy and accessibility strategy and merging them together at a conference I spoke at last year. And I was like, Oh, I left my cane at home. You can't tell today. And there was such because they were kind of like they were paying attention. But they weren't, like, folio paying attention. You can tell them about folio paying attention. So I made that joke, and then everyone was kind of like, there was like, a little bit of Lacher in silence, and then they were completely interested. It's like, okay. They're like, Oh, yeah, wait. Why did I, you know, have this misconception of what a disability looks like? And so it's like, let's get get into it,   Speaker 1 ** 21:31 and at least then you're able to open the discussion. You know, I've talked about it on unstoppable mindset a few times, but I have a different definition of disability than than most people. And I'll explain very briefly. People keep saying to me, well, disability, I say, disability doesn't mean a lack of ability. And they say, Well, of course it does, because disability starts with dis, and I say, Well, okay, but what about disciple, discern, discreet and so on. They all start with this, and they're not negative. No, disability isn't a lack of ability. And over the last year, a few things have happened that caused me to to come up with a different definition. And mainly it came about because I was at a hotel in Hollywood, California last year at three in the afternoon when we lost power in and around the hotel, and suddenly everybody started to scream, and they're running around trying to find or reaching for flashlights and smartphones and so on. And I realized disability is something that everyone has sighted. People have a disability, and their disability is their light dependent and and the reality is that we need to recognize that, in fact, everyone has a disability. Every single person with eyesight has the disability of being light dependent. Now, at the same time, you cover up your disability, because Thomas Edison invented the electric light bulb, and we have worked so hard to create light on demand that disabilities are covered up. Disability of light dependence is covered up. It is until it can't be, because suddenly the power goes out or whatever. But the reality is, everyone in this world has a disability. The thing is that disability is a characteristic that manifests itself differently for different people. It doesn't mean, though, that you don't have it. Of course, most sighted people won't necessarily buy into that, until suddenly they're stuck without light for a good period of time. It doesn't change the fact, though, that their disability gets covered up.   Speaker 2 ** 23:50 That's that's a very good point. Michael, I think again, that what is the perception of what a disability actually is and how someone interacts with it, and then how it impacts how someone shows up in the world and how the world views them. And so I think really understanding that, again, it's a spectrum it impacts, and then this is so many different types of disabilities, and what does it actually mean to be disabled?   Speaker 1 ** 24:19 Well, and that's and that's exactly it. That's why I use the definition that everyone has a disability. It's just that it manifests itself differently for different people. And we need to start to recognize that, and if we really intellectually recognize that, then we begin to change our thought about what a disability is and recognize that maybe it has nothing to do with how well people think or how well people can work. We just need to use and find alternatives when necessary. I mean, look at look. At most buildings, office buildings, they have lights so that people can see where to go, to walk down a corridor, or they have Windows people can look out, or sometimes open for heater or whatever. But typically, they don't necessarily open, but they have a lot of different kinds of things to accommodate light dependent people, computer monitors, but they won't necessarily buy a screen reader for a person who is blind, even though that screen reader might not even cost as much as a monitor. Today, you have coffee machines that are touch screen we provide so many accommodations for employees based solely on eyesight, for example, or right handedness, or any number of other kinds of things. And we we really need to learn as a society to move beyond that. But that's where the challenge is, of course, isn't it?   Speaker 2 ** 25:58 Yes, I think it's a we're constantly making accommodations and making adjustments or making things easier for humans, you know. And how does accessibility play a role in that, and making sure that everyone has the ability to access what they need to access, and to do it the best way they can.   Speaker 1 ** 26:19 So how would you in and, of course, I've, I've perhaps messed this up by coming up with the definition of disability that I did. How would you find accessibility? How would you define it? Today,   Speaker 2 ** 26:34 I feel like disability is more like I feel like people think it's like the medical condition you have or the experience you have, but I really think it's like the barriers that people put in place, you know, and like the editorial barriers someone's values is towards someone that looks different or appears different, someone's barrier the barriers to accessing different tools and different resources and really understanding that in disability can be permanent, it can be temporary, it can be situational, kind of like you were getting at with that everyone has a disability and that it it can it looks different every day, and that there's No one size fits all right, have disability, and it's embedded ability as a spectrum.   Michael Hingson ** 27:26 So then, how would you find accessibility?   Speaker 2 ** 27:30 Yeah, so I think accessibility is synonymous for a lot of people, for people providing access, for people with disabilities, but I define accessibility as people have resources they need to do their day to day or to be successful girls that have a disability or not,   Speaker 1 ** 27:52 Right? And it's all about education, isn't it?   27:58 Yes?   Speaker 1 ** 28:02 So in the HR world, what could, what could HR do, and how can we deal with making human resources more accessible and inclusive for people with disabilities?   Speaker 2 ** 28:19 I think right now, Human Resources HR is trained to really, oh, look, we recruit, we want to recruit more people with disabilities. We want to hire more people with disabilities, but understand that there's 25% only 25% of people that have disability actually disclose in the workplace that they have a disability, and disclose to human resources they have a disability. And meanwhile, there's probably a lot more than that in the organization and in the workplace. And so we're looking, okay, what are your retention strategies look like for developing people that have, you know, disabilities? What is, why is, you know, looking at management? Why is it? Oh, you're doing good this job, this promote you to management. Okay, not everyone wants to become a manager, or it isn't, you know, have the skills become a manager. Okay? What a you know? What other approaches you can use to develop an employee? How can you look at your culture to evaluate how people with disabilities are treated and how they feel? Is it is in finding out where those gaps are, or most people with disabilities having those issues with management, because management's not understanding how to better accommodate and support employees with disabilities. Is it the co workers making that experience as human resources themselves causing these issues, and really figuring out where the issues lie for that particular organization, and increasing learning how to better increase retention?   Speaker 1 ** 29:41 So what do you? What do you do with accessible creates and so on, to really help in the education process and to helping with with truly having more of a higher retention for persons with disabilities? Yes.   Speaker 2 ** 29:57 So I, for example. To audit the policies and procedures, see how they regards to accessibility. They have any language around accessibility, because a lot of organizations, you know, there's the ADA in America, and they have that in their policies and procedures. Meanwhile, the ADA is just the bare minimum and just coming to actually get a lawsuit. But what are the best practices you're actually implementing? Do you have an accommodation policy procedure so people know how that can be accommodated, and managers and resources know how to best accommodate that employee, you know, and then also providing provide coaching. So brand coaching, if you know, for example, for the narrative version to our disabled employee and they need a bit more assistance knowing how to better advocate for their rights and advocate for themselves in the workplace. So also working in conjunction doing a management training on okay, if your employee comes to you with this information, what, what do you do and how to address that, and how to make sure that someone feels safe enough to disclose or discuss disclose that they need support from you to better do their job, yeah?   Speaker 1 ** 31:01 How do you deal with the employer, or even someone in HR, but somebody in authority at a company that says, Well, yeah, you raise good points and we'll implement them, but it takes time. We just can't jump into it.   Speaker 2 ** 31:18 Yeah? I I say, you know, like good things take time, but really understanding that, I think a lot of times, sometimes they scared to make the wrong choice and make the wrong decision. But I think also, just like by not doing anything and not taking the time to do things, take time, we all know this, and being able to be transparent with your employees. Hey, we're implementing this thing. Because I think a lot of times management, or, you know, human resources, are doing these good initiatives, but they're not communicating that to the fellow employees what's being done. And so I think just being transparent and being able to be flexible and be open with, you know, the employees, and being honest, yeah,   Speaker 1 ** 32:06 it is hard, because people really tend to think that we got to move slow. But the reality is, if you don't take the leap and start recognizing you're treating some people in a substandard way, and make the conscious effort to change it, then you won't. I mean, we have, we have seen so many shifts in the world. Smartphones came along, and everyone adopted them very quickly, because they saw the value of it. And I've dealt with people who are interested in making their internet websites more accessible, and some of them say, well, we got to do it, because if we don't, we'll get sued. And some people say, and rightly so, we've got to do it because it's the right thing to do. But when you then switch that to Well, what about hiring people with disabilities and so on, or what about changing attitudes within your organization? It's Well, that just takes more time, and I question whether it really should take more time, or should you really adopt a policy and then work to bring people up to it. Yeah,   Speaker 2 ** 33:23 I think it's kind of a mix of both, you know, I think it's obviously, it's going to take time, but also, what are you putting in place to get it most efficiently and get it as quickly as possible, to make it as much people understand, to make to really break down those barriers and to get people having these discussions and having these conversations and just challenging what the norm was in the organization, and why do we have these preconceptions of what disability is in the workplace, and disability inclusion and things are going to take time, and that's okay, but Really understanding okay how are you saying yourself and your organization are for the best success to better support all people in the organization? And   Speaker 1 ** 34:08 that's really the issue, isn't it? Because it's all about conversation. It's all about education. And the biggest problem I see in general in terms of dealing with people with disabilities within organizations or anywhere with the law, with whatever is that we just don't engage in the conversation, and probably some of that is fear. Oh my gosh. I don't want to become blind like them, and it could happen to me. I gotta avoid that, or or any other disability I might end up in a wheelchair. I don't want to do that. And so there's, there is a level of fear that enters into it, but also it is just having the conversation and starting to really make people more aware of you. What disabilities really are and what they're not, and doing more of a concerted effort to make that conversation happen, I think we'll do more to help educate and get people to move and realize maybe our attitudes and our ideas aren't what we thought they should be. Yeah,   Speaker 2 ** 35:19 and it's like understanding, why is there that fear? You know, it's like because of what how media portrays it. It's because of stories you've heard, you know. And we all have our different struggles, you know, going back to your point about what you said, you know, we all have disability in some ways. We all have different struggles. We're all human beings. We all have good and bad days. And so what is the fear stem from? And, you know, people, a lot of people, are scared to say the wrong thing, but the worst thing you can say is nothing at all, right? And, you know, and so I think, like, well, I don't want to say the wrong thing about disability. I don't want to, you know, the cancel culture, or wherever they call, you know, these days, yeah. And so it's just like, the worst thing you can do is not say anything, because, you know, just negative your own growth and the organization's growth by not even wanting to make those mistakes. And you know the difference between intention and impact. You know, it's maybe so impact someone if you say the wrong thing, but be like, Hey, I'm learning. You know, even if you're a management or human resources, I'm learning every day. Can you know I'm going to make mistakes? And again, that transparency piece is so important, because we all know we're humans, we're going to make mistakes. And I think sometimes an organization, they really put managers and human resources on a pedestal that it shouldn't be the case because Ken, we're all human. At the end of the day, we're all, you know, here to do a job, and we're going to make mistakes, and that's okay. And so really coming off the pedestal be like, I'm learning. I want to do better how you know, and being vocal and being transparent about that is so crucial.   Speaker 1 ** 36:56 I think you raise a really good point. And I think that that the issue is, as you said, saying nothing is the worst thing that you can do. But I also think whether some of us who have disabilities, in the traditional sense of the word, if I'm going to use that, some of us don't want to be teachers. We're tired of having to explain. But the reality is, we are the best teachers. We are other than are. We're the best information providers, and we really should understand and be patient, because if we know that really, people behave as they do because it's an educational issue and they haven't got the education, who's in a better position than we are to address that and and so I agree with what you're saying. One of the things that I hear all the time is, well, you're visually impaired, which I think is the worst thing that anyone can say about anyone who has any kind of eyesight issue. We're not visually impaired, visually we're not different. We're not visually different and impaired, we are not it's like Deaf people have learned if you say deaf or hearing impaired, they're they're liable to execute you on the spot. They recognize that it's deaf or hard of hearing and slowly, although not nearly fast enough, blind people are starting to learn visually impaired is the wrong thing to say, because it contributes to the lack of understanding. Because you say impaired and we're not blind, and low vision is a lot more relevant, and certainly not not negative. But if we aren't willing to help educate, then we're doing our own disservice to all   Speaker 2 ** 38:47 of us. Yeah, I think to your point that you know, it's like, sometimes we're tired of explaining things and don't want to advocate, but we're the best teachers, and we're also giving that space to it's like, do you want to share? Do you want to talk about your experiences? Do you feel comfortable? Do you feel up to talking about it? Hey, I don't feel like talking about it right now. Little time, and that's really okay, or little time, oh, I'm willing to educate you today and explain my experiences to you. And so I think there's sometimes too much pressure that of people like, oh, I always say, I'm like, ask people questions. People want to answer your questions, but they don't have capacity. You don't have the energy to answer your questions. That's okay. But hey, another time and be okay with that. Yeah. And I think just giving as human beings, giving each other compassion and giving each other that grace so important to drive this work forward.   Speaker 1 ** 39:46 Well, I think it is important to to find a mutually agreeable time. And maybe that's part of the discussion is I really would rather not talk about this now. Can we set up a time to talk about it and and. So working toward that, I think, is extremely important to be able to do, because we are going to be, by definition, the best educators in terms of disabilities. And you can also get different people with a disability who will say different things. There are still some people who like visually impaired, but that's what the professionals have ingrained at us, and it's a process to get that out of our psyche and recognize that it's low vision and blind and not visually impaired. I would prefer just blind. For anyone who has lost enough eyesight that they have to use alternatives to print to be able to function, I would prefer just to use blind. But the reality is that's probably a larger step than most people are willing to take today. So blind and low vision works for a while, but at some point, we're going to have to recognize there's nothing wrong with being blind or there's nothing wrong with being in a wheelchair, or there's nothing wrong with being deaf or being a person somewhere on the autism spectrum, there's nothing wrong with any of those. It's just that we're going to do things differently than you're used to? Yeah,   Speaker 2 ** 41:22 I think language is so important too, because, like, the you know what the professionals say, what the all the research is saying, but it's a What does that person identify with? But you know what they identify and what is their experience like? And really talking to them, to, you know it's like. And I think a lot of times we we even when we're educated, this is my personal experience. This is how I want to identify with a person with a disability, or I identify as a disabled person, you know, we preface that, and so I always make this joke. I'm like, people like, oh, do I say he's visually impaired? Do I say, you know, he's low vision? Do I say he's blind? It's like, well, his name is Michael, so call him Michael, you know, yeah,   Speaker 1 ** 42:04 and, and you can always ask, yeah, but his name is Michael, and that's really the issue. One of the discussions that I've been involved with of late is sort of related to the whole first person language. It's about descriptions. I notice in your bio you have a description, long, brown, curly hair, wearing a silver necklace and a red blouse. What do you think about the whole concept of providing or needing to provide, descriptions, especially if you're in a meeting with people who don't see   Speaker 2 ** 42:42 Yeah, I think it's important. And I think and asking the person, do you want a description? I think, I think there you go. I think sometimes, by people want to just, it's politically acceptable, but really talking to the person, hey, do you need to pick up description to me, but what will make you most feel most comfortable? He was asking that to anyone. What can I do in this meeting to make you feel most comfortable? What do you require of me to get the best experience out of this? And so just asking the person, and   Speaker 1 ** 43:14 that's really the key, isn't it. There's nothing wrong with asking personally. I don't need descriptions. Now, I've never been able to see with eyes, so it's never been an issue for me. But I do know that there are people who have become blind later in life who may want descriptions and and that's fine. The other side of it is, is it really going to add value say to a meeting? That is, does a description of a person really make you more comfortable? And I don't, you know, I don't know the answer to that for a lot of people. I do know, for me, it just takes time away from the meeting. But that's but that's me, and I understand that the one of the reasons I brought it up was that a couple of weeks ago, I was involved in the meeting, and after the meeting, one of the people wrote to everyone who was there and said, You know, I went online trying to find descriptive words for people with disabilities to provide those same descriptions for people with disabilities, but I can't find them, and most of us said, Why do you need them? Because the reality is, there are a lot of different disabilities. There's no one real answer, and I do agree that we shouldn't hide who we are, but we can take this descriptive symbolism and and beat it to death so often too. Does it really make sense to have descriptors of people with with a disability?   Speaker 2 ** 44:58 Yeah, I think I. Yeah, it's like, what, who is the person you know getting and what does that look like? And so I think understanding that, I feel like there's so many things and so much information coming out about disability right now, how to be most inclusive, that sometimes we forget the nuance of just the human experience, yeah, and   Speaker 1 ** 45:23 yeah, well, and that's what we essentially told the person who asked the question, that it's not and a number of people did. It's not really relevant to do it for disabilities as such. But I think your point is, is also well taken. You can always ask, and if somebody wants a description, then give them a description and and then move on. But it is, it is something that I I've been in meetings, and I've heard way too often you'll have 10 or 12 people in the meeting, and they're asked without finding out whether people want it when you first speak, give a description of yourself. By the time you're done with that, you've wasted another 10 or 12 minutes of the meeting, which is only an hour long anyway. And what have you really gained from that? And and again, I understand that there are some people who might like that, because they used to see but I but I think that we can take it to an extreme, which doesn't help. Yeah, I think   Speaker 2 ** 46:31 really understanding, what are the needs? What are the what's the reason behind the meeting? What are the needs of the meeting? Who's attending the meeting? Do they know? Do they do the people need it? They not need it. And again, providing even, like, for example, closed captions. But like, I think closed captions are so important in the thing like, oh, it's for people only, people that are hard of hearing and but it's like, for example, sometimes it's like, oh, it's better for me to process information if I see it written, instead of just hearing it or hearing it and seeing it. And so it's a cool what is it adding to the meeting instead of, you know, yeah, what's the value   Speaker 1 ** 47:13 and things like closed captioning? I absolutely can understand. And I think that meetings should have closed captions. And I don't care what the meeting is, we should get into that habit. And the other, the other thing I would would say is that, again, descriptions are a different situation, because what does it really add to the meeting and but again, some people may really want it. So it's a it's a question to ask and then go from there. But I would say closed captions. Another one is one of my favorites. Somebody created this terminology, no Braille, no meeting. That is to say, especially when a blind person, for example, is involved. But I would say in general, it would be better to do this, and that is, if you're going to have a meeting, don't bring handouts to the meeting, disseminate them in advance. Because if you have a meeting and you're giving people handouts and you're talking, they've got to split their time between listening to you and reading the handout. And I don't care what handout it is, you could take a few minutes early enough to disseminate handouts so that people can all be prepared. But especially that works for people like me who aren't going to read those handouts, because you're going to create them from a copy or anyway, or you're going to print them in a multiple way, but probably don't have access to a Braille embosser or some way to get them to me. And so the reality is that documentation should be provided in advance, and I think again, it's a habit that we should all get into, then we don't have to worry about it when somebody comes along who really needs to have those, those services.   Speaker 2 ** 49:03 Yeah, I completely agree. I remember, I think I started doing that a couple years ago. It was like, why I even myself? You know, I like to be okay with the agenda. I like to know the agenda, know what we're going to talk about. And so I have Knowing that ahead of time is so important. And you we all have such busy lives, so even if you don't have a like you said, traditional disability is going to help you better prepare for that meeting and feel more at ease going into that meeting and going into this conversation. And it helps everyone at the end of the day.   Speaker 1 ** 49:34 Sure, it does. Were you ever treated poorly or have any real challenges because of the fact that you have a disability?   Speaker 2 ** 49:44 Yeah, I think, like I mentioned the beginning, my, my speech impediment, my, I think people would make fun of my the way I would speak and so, and I just like, I don't talk like that. You can, you know. And. That made me feel very uneasy. And then also, going back to, you know, dealing with depression in high school, people didn't understand, really, what it was to have depression, and so like, Oh, it's just all in your head. Or, like, and then I would kind of do some kind of reckless thing because I didn't like I said I didn't care if I lived or died. And so they were like, oh, and kind of make fun of me and or use it to their advantage to put me in other situations that weren't not the best for me. And so this also led to complex PTSD, and so just understanding that when sometimes people don't fully understand something that more likely to make fun of you, and not because, again, the impact work is intent, right? So sometimes they just kids being silly and not knowing really what they're doing, but sometimes in demolition attack of using someone's disability against them, right?   Speaker 1 ** 51:06 As as you may know, I worked in the World Trade Center and escaped after, well, on September 11, after the buildings were hit, and people, even to this day, say to me, Well, you didn't know what happened, did you? And I said, No, not at the time. Well, of course, you didn't, because you couldn't see it. They revert to that type, even though, in reality, the building where it was struck was 18 floors above us on the other side of the building. And so one of the things that I say to people is, well, the last time I checked Superman and X ray vision are fiction, and the fact of the matter is, on my side of the building, no one knew what happened when we were going down the stairs. Not one single person anywhere around us knew what happened, because they were all on the other side of the building from where the plane was hit, and typically many floors below where the plane was hit. So of course, nobody saw it, but, but they want to revert to type when it comes to dealing with, say, a person who's blind. Well, of course, you couldn't see it, so you wouldn't know. And that is just unfortunate, because, again, I think it contributes or comes from the lack of education. Yeah,   Speaker 2 ** 52:21 I think a lot of the whenever someone says something, sometimes it just like becomes for that misunderstanding, the missing, that the lack of education. That's why education is so important. In disability, you're talking about anything because, and sometimes I feel like people almost like the fear or the unknown fill in those gaps, and it can cause huge problems. Yeah,   Speaker 1 ** 52:48 what is one thing that you wished people knew? Well, it's really two questions, one about disabilities and the other is about accessibility.   Speaker 2 ** 53:00 I think I wish for people knew about disabilities, is that I think the ability that it's a spectrum and that impacts people differently, and can impact impact the individual themselves differently every day again. You know, for example, if I didn't get enough sleep, it could contribute to other environments, factors that make my conditions act up, and for accessibility, I think that, yes, accessibility is an ominous with, you know, people with disabilities and giving resources people with disabilities, but accessibility allows us all to have the resources And the tools we need to be successful, and that it's kind of the bare minimum of what you should be doing. Yeah.   Speaker 1 ** 53:50 And I think for me, if there were one thing I wish people knew about disabilities, is it's okay to ask. It's okay to want to know more. And I always will. If people ask me a question, I will, I will answer. One of the things that I encounter often is I'll be anywhere from an airport to a hotel to a store, and a child wants to come up and pet my guide dog. And the parents will say, Oh, don't go pet that dog. That dog might bite you don't know anything about that dog, as opposed to saying it's a guide dog and the dog is working. Now, some people do say that, but a lot of people don't. For me, my policy is if I hear a child asking, especially when parents respond in the negative way, I will always stop take the harness off. Say no, it does okay. They can visit with the dog, and then it gives me the chance to to say when the harness is on, the dog is working. It's got a job to do, because the dog make sure that I walk safely. But the dog. Dog isn't going to bite you, and I don't want you to be afraid of dogs just because, but you should always ask. It's okay to ask and do that. I think that's that's really important, but oftentimes parents continue to create a fear level that we don't need to have. So if a child wants to interact with my dog, I will always stop. If an adult wants to. If I have time, I will stop, and if I don't, I will not stop. And I'll say, here's why I'm in. I'm in a hurry. I've got to get here. I really don't have time. I wish I did, but I will, whenever I can, I will stop and let people interact. I'll take the harness off because the dog needs to relax too, and the dog knows when the harness comes off, they can visit, and they know that they're supposed to focus. But even so, when somebody pets pets, a dog, even in harness, they're going to look, because the dog really likes the attention. So it's a matter of of dealing with it. But by the same token, the bottom line is that I think, again, it's all about education. So I don't mind letting people pet the dog, but only when the harness is off. When I've had a couple of times that people would ask, and I say, not right this moment. And then they go right ahead and pet the dog. And I know that they pet the dog because the dog is looking and I can feel the leash move. And when that happens, I will give the dog not a hard one, but a leash correction, saying, leave it. And the people will say, Oh, don't yell at the dog. I was the one that was petting the dog and said, No, you don't understand. You got the dog in trouble. The dog knows better. I'll deal with the dog, then I'll deal with you. But, but, you know, it's, it's an educational process, but with kids, I'll always stop. I think it's important that children learn what guide dogs are and that that they are friendly. The only thing I would say is, I hope they're not holding an ice cream cone at the time, because they'll lose the ice cream cone. What would you tell your teenage self if you could go back right now and do that?   Speaker 2 ** 57:01 I would tell my teenage self that be authentically you, because, like I said, I felt like I was a chameleon in high school. And so by being more me, embracing my differences, embracing who I am, embracing all these different things that make up who Cindy is, and really living into that, and also giving myself with a bit more grace and compassion, because I guess I could do some things and things I couldn't do, and now understanding okay, there's some things I can do and Some things I can't do, and that's okay, and that I'm worthy, and that I think, yeah, I think that's it   Speaker 1 ** 57:49 okay. I think that's fair. Well, if people would like to reach out to you, maybe take advantage of your your services and so on, and interact. How do they do that?   Speaker 2 ** 58:01 You You can send me this. I have a form or a website that you can fill out, and my website is and my website is accessible, creates.ca   Speaker 1 ** 58:10 so accessible creates.ca so they can go there, and they can reach out and so on and and take it from there. Yes. And they can write you and ask you all sorts of questions,   Sydney Elaine Butler ** 58:23 if they choose, if they choose.   Speaker 1 ** 58:25 Well, Sydney, I want to thank you for being here. This has been a lot of fun and educational, and I've learned a lot, and I really appreciate your time. I'm glad we finally were able to make this happen, and I hope all of you out there come away with a little bit of a different view of disabilities and all of us who typically experience that then, then you had before. Love to hear your thoughts. Love to get an idea of what you think. Please feel free to reach out to me. You can reach me at Michael h i@accessibe.com that's m, I C H, A, E, L, H, I at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, I b, e.com, or you can go to our podcast page, w, w, w, dot Michael hingson.com/podcast, and Michael Hinkson is spelled M, I C H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s, O n.com/podcast, wherever you're listening or watching on YouTube, please give us a five star rating. We value your ratings, and would really appreciate you taking the time to rate and comment. We love your comments. We love getting your feedback, and so would definitely appreciate you doing that. If you know of anyone who ought to be a guest on our show, our podcast and Sydney, including you, if you know anyone who ought to be a guest, please let us know. Reach out, introduce us. We're always looking for people who want to become guests on unstoppable mindset. And so with that again, Sydney, I want to thank you for being here. This has been a. A lot of fun. Any last words that you want to say?   Speaker 2 ** 1:00:03 Yes again. Thank you so much, Michael for having me on your podcast, and I look forward to seeing how I hope. I look forward to keeping in touch and seeing other conversations   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:20 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

Talk about being unstoppable, I can offer no better example than our guest this time, Nick Prefontaine. My impression is that Nick grew up as a pretty normal kid, but at the age of fourteen his life changed when he suffered a major traumatic brain injury that left him paralyzed, unable to talk nor even able to feed himself. Nick will take us through his experience including his decision along the way to eventually leave the hospital by running out the door. Roughly 60 days after entering a rehabilitation hospital Nick met his goal by running out of the hospital when he was discharged. How did he do it? As he tells us he was able to employ what he later called the S.T.E.P. system. What is S.T.E.P? It stands for Support, Trust, Energy and Persistence. At the age of 16, Nick while still in school began learning the real estate world. He will tell us about some of the lessons he learned along the way which are quite fascinating. Today in his mid-thirties, Nick still works in real estate along with his father, but he also has formed his own company named Common Goal. Only a few years ago Nick began learning how to coach and help others who are facing serious challenges in their lives. He works especially with people who are experiencing serious brain injuries such as what he encountered. He is a successful author and coach. There are many good life lessons that come out of my time with Nick Prefontaine and I am sure you will agree with me that his observations are invaluable and worth exploring. You can even visit his website, www.NickPrefontaine.com/step” where you can obtain a free copy of his eBook describing in detail his S.T.E.P. system. About the Guest: Nick Prefontaine is a 3x best selling author and was named a top motivational speaker of 2022 in Yahoo Finance. He's a Speaker, Founder and CEO of Common Goal. Using the S.T.E.P. system he is able to lead clients through their trauma. Once they make it through, that is where their limitless potential lies. Nick's been featured in Brainz Media, Swaay and Authority Magazine. At 14, Nick suffered a life-threatening snowboarding accident. His parents were told that he'd never walk, talk or eat again on his own again. He made a personal goal that he would not walk but run out of the hospital. He unknowingly used a system to do just that and less than 60 days later he ran out of the hospital. Nick got started in the real estate industry at an early age. Most notably, he was knocking on pre-foreclosure doors at 16, doing 50+ doors a day. This experience not only shaped his career but it also was a part of his recovery. Going door to door, helping people out of their unfortunate situation. Ways to connect with Nick: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nickprefontaine/ https://www.facebook.com/nick.prefontaine.7/ www.NickPrefontaine.com/step About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:21 You are listening, once again, to an episode of unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet, and today we get to really deal with the unexpected, as I tell people oftentimes about the podcast. Sometimes we do get to talk about inclusion, and we do that before we talk about diversity, because diversity never includes disabilities. But mostly what we get to talk about is the unexpected, which is anything that doesn't have to do with inclusion or diversity. So mostly we get to do the unexpected today, whatever that may mean. Our guest is Nick Prefontaine, Nick, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're here all the way back in Rhode Island, so we have to yell across the country to reach each other, huh?   Nick Prefontaine ** 02:05 Absolutely. Michael, however, I've been, I've been looking forward to this for for a few weeks now. So looking forward to jumping in with you. Me too. I'm really looking forward to it, and   Michael Hingson ** 02:16 I know we do get to do some unexpected, really neat story things and so on. But why don't we start tell us about the early Nick growing up. And I know your story integrates into that at some point, but tell us. Tell us about the early Nick. You're, you're setting your set me right up. I try right up. So   Speaker 1 ** 02:35 I, um, alright, so I was at, I was actually at Ski Club with my friends are on the way, we all got released a little bit early. So it was super exciting, as I'm sure you can imagine, or your listeners can imagine, when you're in eighth grade, you get released a little bit early. It's always a big deal. It's always a big thing. So whenever we add Ski Club, we always got released a little bit early. So that was exciting to begin with, and then my friends and I all brought our snowboard gear on the bus to get ready so we could get as most the most out of that day as possible, as far as runs, and not waste any time once we got to the mountain to get ready. So we got some mountain the rest of the class migrated inside to get their ski and snowboard attire on. And we were ready. Because we were prepared. We got ready on the bus. We we had to write for the chair lift. And then going up, we noticed that it was very icy, because it had been raining, so people were wiping out everywhere. However, the the chairlift went right over the terrain park where all of the jumps were, and I knew, as soon as I saw it, that I had to go off the biggest jump in the terrain park. I was like, Oh yeah, that's got my name all over it. So   Nick Prefontaine ** 04:00 got to the top, buckled into my snowboard, took a breath of that crisp winter air, and confidently charged towards that jump with all my speed. And then going after the jump, I caught the edge of my snowboard would sue me off balance, and so I was forced to go off the jump, off balance. I've come to learn that at the moment of impact, I had a decision to make, and I got really still, so I'd left my body and I had two choices. Option one,   Speaker 1 ** 04:34 it's going to be really hard, and once you get through it, you'll help. You'll be able to help trauma survivors to thrive with the rest of their lives, or you can move on to the other side. And I chose a really hard path. So once I got to the hospital, the they actually to get me to the hospital, they wanted to bring a helicopter in. However, it.   Speaker 1 ** 05:00 It was too windy, so they had to send in an ambulance. And out of all the paramedics in the the entire county, there was only one who could intubate right in the spot, and I needed that to be able to breathe. And lucky for me, he was one of the paramedics that showed up to the mountain that day,   Speaker 1 ** 05:22 there's, there's. So that's one, one thing, that's one of the things that contributed to why I'm able to talk to you today and still tell this story. The second one was I had a pair of goggles that I wore, so I wasn't although I wasn't wearing a helmet, and I later learned that I wasn't wearing a helmet, which I usually did when I went to this particular mountain, I was wearing a pair of goggles, and the goggles that I wore had a lot of padding in them. So not only did they brace my impact as I continue to roll down the mountain and continue to hit my head. The goggles mysteriously moved with each impact to brace each each individual impact. So that was the first thing that happened, paramedics. The right paramedic out of all the ones in the area. That was the second the third. Once I got to the hospital, I was I was out, I was toast.   Speaker 1 ** 06:26 The doctors said that I would have been in a coma for seven to 10 days at a minimum, just based on the impact alone. However, Michael, I had swelling in my brain, and the doctors were worried that if I woke up and panicked, the swelling would increase and I would have died, so they had to induce me into a coma. And very early on, when I was resting in the intensive care unit, my parents were the only ones, my immediate family, who were allowed in that room. And the doctors came right in front of me, no fault of their own. They were just doing their job, but they   Speaker 1 ** 07:11 they came into my room to share the prognosis. And as I'm sure you can imagine, it was not so positive, not so positive, not so positive. Each time they will come into my room where I was in a coma. I was out, albeit, but I was in a coma. So they went to share this with my parents. And right as they started talking, my mom stopped them, and she said, No, no, not in front of him, because she understood that even though I was in a coma, I wasn't conscious, I was still taking in information, albeit subconsciously or unconsciously. I always confuse those two. Still to this day, I always confuse those two, however, because my mom stopped the doctors from sharing that news in front of me, made them step outside the room. Once they got outside the room, that's where they shared with my parents that look. He's been in a snowboarding accident, and   Speaker 1 ** 08:17 he's in a coma. Even if he comes out of his coma, there's a good chance that he's probably not going to be able to walk, talk or eat on his own again. And because my mom stopped the doctors and didn't let that information get through to me in any way, what it allowed me to do was just get up every day, figuratively and literally, and treat it like any of the situation.   Speaker 1 ** 08:47 So a month I was in the in the coma, partially induced coma, for three weeks. I really don't remember a month, because it was a partially induced coma,   Nick Prefontaine ** 08:58 as I said.   Speaker 1 ** 09:01 So a month after my accident, those are where my kind of my synapses and my my brain started firing. So I those are where my first memories start. And initially, I was transported to the third floor of the rehab hospital in Boston, and that's where I began my journey. The third floor was reserved for the most critical of cases, and that was me at that point. I couldn't walk, I couldn't talk, I couldn't feed my I couldn't do anything, couldn't feed myself, couldn't do anything, and the only thing that I could do was sit up in bed for eight minutes at a time, supported by three nurses, and even then, I was sweating profusely, like I had just ran a marathon. So it was definitely a long.   Speaker 1 ** 10:00 Ahead of me, and I had to, I had to build up my strength slowly, slowly but surely. And it was right around this time that I started,   Speaker 1 ** 10:13 although we're Yeah, it was unknowingly that I started to utilize a system, and that's the same system that I teach to this day   Speaker 1 ** 10:27 in my in my keynote talks for brain injury associations, and also working one on one with individuals that are going through trauma, that's the step system. So Michael, Step is an acronym. It stands for support. Make sure that you have the support of your family and friends right from the beginning, and this is going to have you falling back on relationships that you built prior to your setback. T is trust, trust that once you take your first step, your next step is always going to be available to you. And this this also is about trusting that voice that we all have inside, inside of ourselves. Call it what you want, God, the universe, your inner voice. We all have that voice, but so many of us don't listen to it. So it was very early on my recovery, when I was transported to that rehab hospital in Boston, that I started to listen to that inner voice. So this was before I could talk. I was still unable to talk. I was in a wheelchair. I couldn't walk and I overheard my parents talking and conferring with the doctors, and they would meet them every week to say, all right. So they would, for instance, they would say to the doctors, what do we have to do this week to make sure Nick makes a full recovery? I heard in the back of my head, no, you're going to run out of the hospital. So then running out of the hospital became our common goal and what we were shooting for.   Speaker 1 ** 12:14 So I always like to illustrate that point, because that's that goes right along with trust. You have to get to trust that voice, that that you have inside of you, within support. If I could take a step back within support,   Speaker 1 ** 12:31 it's important. One of the main things that I talk about in step the ebook, which, at the end, I'll give your listeners a way they can download the whole step system, step the eBook for free. One of the things I talk about in there is within support, is that you have to make sure you have an advocate with you at all times. That advocate for me during the day doesn't have to be   Speaker 1 ** 12:59 however, for me, it was my parents. So my mom would be with me every day, going to every therapy and doctor's appointment with me. She also had her parents, who would join, joined her several days a week to help, help break it up. Then at night, when,   Speaker 1 ** 13:21 when it was time at night, my mom would switch off with my dad, and my dad would come in and spend nights at me.   Speaker 1 ** 13:30 The night said he couldn't be there because he had to travel for work and everything. The night said he couldn't be there. I would have an uncle, a grandfather or someone come and spend the night with me as well. So this was so important, because I had an advocate with me at all times to really, really it, it helped things in that. And I said, this is going back, but it's really not going back because it it flows right into energy. So maintaining our E is energy. Maintaining our energy allows our body's natural ability to be able to heal itself. Medication has the potential to get in the way of that. So I needed a lot of drugs and medication to be pumped into me, rightfully so, to help keep me alive, modern medicine saved my life. However, after my accident, I had to make sure that I wasn't just constantly the doctors or the nurses or the hospital staff wasn't constantly medicating me and Michael. This also comes right around the time that it was very early on my recovery, a month after my accident.   Speaker 1 ** 14:48 I always like to share this story, because I was so as I said, my my dad or my grandfather. I think it was my grandfather in this case, was spent.   Speaker 1 ** 15:00 In the night with me, and this was before I could talk. So I got up in the middle of night and I had to go the bathroom. So I tried to   Speaker 1 ** 15:10 call his name and get his attention, wake him up. Well, he wouldn't wake up. So I managed to put the hospital bed down and hobble to the bathroom, use the bathroom and then make it back into bed. Nothing happened. However, the hospital staff found out the next day, and they freaked out. They're like, we can't have this liability. He can't be doing this. And what we're going to do before bedtime, we're going to give him this many cc's of this medication, that many cc's of this other medication, and that should calm him down for bedtime, so that he's able to sleep and we don't have this happen again. And my mom said to them, No, you're not just ask him not to do that again. So they asked me not to do that, and I made sure not to do it again, and I didn't have any problem. However, if I didn't have an advocate with me at all times the hospital, just to make their jobs easier, I'm not, I'm not gonna suck in on here, they would've, they would've just medicated me, yeah.   Nick Prefontaine ** 16:22 So   Speaker 1 ** 16:24 with that, Michael, I will take it. So if you have any questions about that,   Michael Hingson ** 16:28 well, so you have support, trust, energy, and what's the P?   Speaker 1 ** 16:34 The P, I'm glad you asked. Is persistence, okay, so persistence, once you take your first step, keep getting up every day and take your next step, no matter how small. By continuing to move forward every day, you are building an unstoppable momentum, right? And they were long days. They were long days for me in the inpatient rehab in the rehab hospital in Boston, I would get up. I would usually, especially in the beginning, need help. Physical therapists would have to teach me how to shower again.   Speaker 1 ** 17:12 If you can picture that I had to, I had to learn like something as simple as the water comes before the soap. Like I when I say I had to relearn everything. I truly mean everything. I have no memory how to how to do anything. Yeah, so I would have that. Then I would have, I would get breakfast, and then have my first sessions of physical occupational and speech therapy, and after which we broke for lunch. And it's really interesting, because it was at one of these lunches in between my therapies   Nick Prefontaine ** 17:48 that I had a moment.   Speaker 1 ** 17:51 This is kind of the only moment that I can point to where   Nick Prefontaine ** 17:57 I had any doubt,   Speaker 1 ** 18:01 and I always like to illustrate this, because we all have doubts we're human, Me and Me included in that. So I was in a wheelchair, and I had my lunch in front of me, and after I finished lunch, I was just looking over my situation in the wheelchair and everything. And I turned to my mom and I said,   Nick Prefontaine ** 18:26 Am I ever going to be able to walk again?   Speaker 1 ** 18:29 And she goes, of course, you are. That's what we're doing here. So you can get everything back and we can go home.   Speaker 1 ** 18:35 So what this allowed me to do is one have like, have the confidence that, oh, okay, all right, good. It was, it was like a lapse for me, yeah, and it just allowed me to to keep going and keep taking that next step. So let's go back to the original injury. So the injury for you, did you have broken bones or anything, or was it primarily just a brain injury? Yeah, I actually joke about this, because people say, Oh, my God, you must have had a broken arm, broken leg. I drank a lot of milk.   Nick Prefontaine ** 19:10 I love cereal at the time,   Speaker 1 ** 19:13 so I didn't have any broken bones. I just had a traumatic brain. Traumatic brain injury, right? So when you essentially went out of your body, you you realize you had two choices. Whereas Was anyone talking to you? Did you hear a voice that helped you realize you had one of two choices to make? Or, how did that what happened? So that's actually, I'm glad you asked that question, because that's actually something that I wasn't conscious of. I didn't I didn't know in the moment, and I didn't even know that years into the future. It was only within the last few years that I've been working one on one with one of my coaches. I have several coaches, but one of my coaches, I really.   20:00 Really,   Speaker 1 ** 20:01 I really term her, or I describe her as an energy coach.   Speaker 1 ** 20:07 She really helps me get quiet and work through things, whatever I'm dealing with. That was one of the things when we were going deep within that we were able to uncover, because she reflects back to me what she's picking up in my field. So that's one of the things that we're able to uncover. I don't have a conscious memory on that, but joy was the one that was able to reflect that back to me,   Speaker 1 ** 20:39 that that's what happened. So I don't have a conscious memory of that. However, it came back to me that   20:47 that's what happened.   Speaker 1 ** 20:50 So as you were recovering, Did Did you have a voice inside you that was talking with you, that you communicated with? Did you have discussions, or that, did a voice direct you? Or what? Other than that voice in the back of my head, that it was a pretty strong voice at the time, it was knowing you're going to run out of the hospital, that that was really my that was really my guiding force throughout my my recovery,   Speaker 1 ** 21:20 really what I was working towards every day, which it was why it was part of my motivation for getting up every day, doing that, doing the physical occupational speech, then having lunch, and then I didn't finish that thought I actually, after lunch, went back to therapy. I had double session. So I had again, physical occupational and speech therapy. And then even after that, I would be doing extra weights, extra exercises and routines that were going to help me get to my common goal, which was running out of the hospital. And we, when I say, We myself and my parents made sure that everyone, my therapist, nurses, doctors, they all knew my goal, which was to run out of the hospital. So we asked them, Is there any what are the extra exercises that Nick can be doing that that's going to get him to his common goal, of running out of the hospital faster. So if you, if you fast forward a little bit. Michael, I was, I was in my conscious memories is I was in inpatient rehab, in the rehab hospital for a little less than 60 days, and a little less than 60 days, I realized my common goal, which was running out of the hospital. And after running out of the hospital, it wasn't like my work was done. I had to continue to go to outpatient therapy for physical, occupational and speech therapy, albeit not double sessions, but I had to do that physical occupational speech therapy five days a week, along with being tutored all summer long in order to continue on to high school with the rest of my classmates. And are you able? Yeah, go ahead. Oh, I was just going to say the looking back on it, it's, it's a little surreal, but   Speaker 1 ** 23:28 it was only 18 months after finishing my rehab, recovering from my snowboarding accident and being in a coma for three weeks and having to learn how to walk, talk and meet again that I got my start in real estate, and that was because I picked up a book off of my dad's shelf in his library that was Cash Flow Quadrant by Robert Kawasaki. Now I grew up. I grew up my family. I grew up in a family real estate. Like, like a real estate family. My dad was a builder when I was younger, then he was in a realtor, then an investor, and then, like all, all throughout my life, he was always in real estate, always doing something. So I picked up that book   Speaker 1 ** 24:18 in a summer, only 18 months after I finished my outpatient rehab, and at the time, he had a real estate he had a real estate investment company, and   Speaker 1 ** 24:31 I approached him and I said, All right, I want to, I want to get like, I want to help. I want to, like, get started on this book. It really has me thinking so was right around this time that when I approached him, it was right before I got my driver's license, right as I was getting my driver's license. So   Speaker 1 ** 24:52 right around that time, they were playing with the idea of having bird dogs go and knock on Pre Foreclosure doors or.   Speaker 1 ** 25:00 Or in other words, homeowners that have received the notice of default letter from the bank, meaning that they have missed a few payments all the way up to, I mean, 10 or 12 payments, and the bank still hadn't foreclosed on the home.   Speaker 1 ** 25:15 So I would get in the beginning. When I first started this, I had no formal training. They they just said, Hey, here you go to this website to get to find out where these are.   25:29 Then   Speaker 1 ** 25:32 you knock on the door and you say this script. Then if no one's home, you leave this letter so that that was pretty much the only the direction that I got. So I had to go to school during the week because I was only 16.   Speaker 1 ** 25:50 Unfortunately, I would, I would have liked to be working all the time, but I had, but I had to go to school. So the only times that I had to do this was on the weekends. And I would pick one day per week, either a weekend or a holiday, and I would go and knock on these doors. And in the beginning, like I said, I got, I received no training, so I just got, I had a script, and I'll leave behind the leave. And I would try to set up meetings for our investor to meet with them about the following week about potentially buying their home.   Speaker 1 ** 26:27 However, in the beginning, I didn't see a lot of success. I got a lot of doors, as you can imagine, slammed in my face because I had no strategy, no tact whatsoever. I would basically rush up to the door and say, Hey, hi. I'm Nick Prefontaine. With Prefontaine, I forgetting what the company was called at the time. I'm here to help you out of your unfortunate situation. And as you can imagine, I get a lot of doors slammed in my face,   Speaker 1 ** 26:58 and rejection is not a bad thing. I was just able to learn from that. So then, shortly after starting my dad sent my cousin Mike and I out to California to shadow the number one person in the country that was having success for these Notice of Default doors, door knocking these people, and once I saw him and how his strategy, how much nuance and like, how scripted every part of his routine was. I was like, oh my god, light bulb went off. Um, because he was, like, going up, knocking on the door, doing a light, friendly knock, like just a neighbor from down the road. Then he would take a few steps back. They answer the door. Say, Hey, not sure I have the right address. Can you confirm something for me? And you would show them their clip his clipboard. And once they saw their name on the list, they would light up and just tell him what happened, what they were doing to fix this situation, or let's be candid, it was 2000 2006   Speaker 1 ** 28:10 2007 so what they weren't doing about the situation,   Speaker 1 ** 28:15 and it really made things easier. And then he was able to book follow up meetings for the following week. So once I saw that, I instituted that, once I got home, and then I started seeing a lot of success. And in these areas, in these cities where I door knock during high school, we own properties for years, even after I graduated high school. And then after I got out of high school, I started studying to get my get my real estate license, and I got my real estate license, a pretty great time to get your real estate license. March of 2008 Mm, hmm. So anyone, anyone that was around during that time. Knows that the financial markets and everything was was kind of coming down during that time and crashing. And it was, it was interesting. Michael, The first pre licensing course that I went to, that I went to take, or the first time, rather, I'm sorry that I went to take my test to get my real estate license. There were because I didn't pass on the first time. It took me a few times, but so the first time I went, there's probably 25 people in the room with me taking the test. The second time I went, only a few weeks later,   Nick Prefontaine ** 29:42 there there was really, like 10,   Speaker 1 ** 29:46 maybe closer to 15. And the third time that I went and took it, because it took me three times to pass my real estate licensing test, they i.   Nick Prefontaine ** 30:00 Yeah, there was one other person   Speaker 1 ** 30:03 in the room. Yeah, there was one other person in the room. So as you can imagine, it was a sign of the times, for sure. And   Speaker 1 ** 30:12 I was a, I was a realtor for a full, full time realtor, helping buyers and sellers for six years, like that was my primary and only source of income. Then in 2014   Speaker 1 ** 30:28 my dad approached me about he was an investor, and he was buying homes like acquiring homes creatively so without signing personally for loans or without using big investor down payments or any of his money. So he is acquiring them creatively,   Speaker 1 ** 30:51 just to name a few, with like with owner financing. So buy if they didn't have any debt on the property, you would buy the home with owner financing and make principal only payments. A second way that he was acquiring them was   Speaker 1 ** 31:10 you would close on them subject to their existing loan. And I'm just trying to keep it high level, keep it basic. The third way is, if there was a loan, like, for instance, if there was a loan in place,   Speaker 1 ** 31:23 he would buy it with a just a lease purchase agreement. And in all cases, taking over responsibility for maintenance, repair and upkeep over the duration of his agreement. And they were usually anywhere from three to five years. And then once he got that, he came to me and said, Hey, would you be able to help me with the marketing of these properties? Because I'm getting all these deals, I'm getting all these properties under contract, and I can't do two things at once, so I can't continue to get properties and market the property. So will you be able to help me with the marketing of the properties? And I was reluctant at first, but I finally came around the idea that I could help him, right alongside being my business as being a realtor and marketing all the properties turned into, oh, shoot, now we need help with handling all the buyer inquiries and the interest that's being generated off this marketing. Will you be able to help me with, with the with the buyers, and fielding all the buyer calls and inquiries and everything like that. So then, over the course of 13 months, my income shifted where I was maybe making five or 10% with him as an investor, and 90% of my income was coming as a realtor. Over 13 months, because of the evolution of the business, my income shifted where it didn't even make sense for me to keep my license, and in January 2016 after I received my last commission check, I let my real estate license go and joined him full time as an investor   Speaker 1 ** 33:19 and working one on one with the buyers   Speaker 1 ** 33:23 that has morphed into working with not only doing our deals and our properties,   Speaker 1 ** 33:31 it also and capital encapsulates working with associates that we have all over The country to do these same types of creative deals, so buying homes with with low or no money down, and then exiting them on a rent to own agreement.   Speaker 1 ** 33:53 So that's, that's what's really developed in the process. And it's pretty exciting. And then if I could, if I could take a step back, because   Speaker 1 ** 34:04 during that time frame, so back, if you go back to 2012 Michael, I developed, I developed an issue with my voice, and I couldn't really figure out what was going on. And I would go to all the I went to my, my, my, what is it called primary care physician, and he checked me out, evaluated me, did a full physical on me. He's like, No, I don't see anything wrong. You're fine. And I was like, something's not right. So I kept looking and I kept being referred. I went to analogous, kept being referred to these different doctors, but a year after looking for answers, I was finally referred to   Speaker 1 ** 34:49 a voice specialist in Boston at Mass, eye and ear. His name was Dr song, and there are only 35 of these voice.   Speaker 1 ** 35:00 Specialists in the country or on the continent. I was, I was confused the two, but, but I think in the country, there are only 35 of these boys specialists. And after looking for almost a year for an answer, and no one able to give me an answer, I was, I was so blown away that immediately Dr song walked in into the room, heard me speak, and right away, not only goes, oh that,   Speaker 1 ** 35:31 yeah, we deal with it all the time. Go to the front desk and get scheduled for a botox injection in a couple weeks, and if there was a camera on me, Michael, my mouth was like on the on the floor. I was absolutely blown away, because here I was. I had all this anxiety built up, and I was, I don't know, I don't like that word. I had all this   Nick Prefontaine ** 35:57 worry,   Speaker 1 ** 35:59 not worry. It was, I'm looking, I'm searching, I'm looking for the word. It's anxiety. I just don't love that word. I don't know it was. I had all this like pent up. I was just looking everywhere, and I couldn't get an answer. So it could be anxiety, I'm not sure, or concern, but concern, yeah, so I, I was just, like, melted I, like, melted off me when he did that, because   Speaker 1 ** 36:30 it really, it put me so at ease. And so what was the issue? Oh, it was a I had, I had some, I had a lot of tension in my throat. It was, it was basically like, it was hard to get the words out, so that's how I would sound. But to me, I felt fine inside, so I was like, Oh, I don't get why my voice is sounding like that. So what did the Botox do? Well, what it did. I actually can relate this back to my accident, because during my recovery from my accident and having to learn how to talk again, I knew what I wanted to say up here, it was clear, Isabelle up here,   Speaker 1 ** 37:13 then I just couldn't get the words out, like they just couldn't come whereas then this was a little bit different. Same thing, I knew what I wanted to say. It was clear in my head. However, just coming out, I just couldn't get the words out. And what it was was   Nick Prefontaine ** 37:36 they don't know what. He didn't want to label it.   Speaker 1 ** 37:40 He said he doesn't want to put a label on it, because in all my research and looking for answers and everything, I really resonated with something in a community, a group called   Speaker 1 ** 37:56 just for, it's, um, I'm sorry, dysphonia International. And at the time, they were called National spasmodic dysphonia association. So spasmodic dysphonia is like it basically, it's just a voice issue.   Speaker 1 ** 38:15 So now that it's now that it's worked its way out of my system, I don't even know if it's if it's that, or if it's a combination of that with muscle tension, because for me, now, it's out of my system. As as you can tell here, I've, I've been doing quite a bit of talking, and there, there's no issue. So I don't, I fortunately don't have an issue with my voice anymore,   Michael Hingson ** 38:44 and the last Botox injection I had to receive was February 13 of 2020, okay, so that's been over four years, which is pretty cool. Yeah, let me ask you this question. So you had clearly a very serious injury.   Michael Hingson ** 39:05 How did that injury affect you in terms of what you do and the commitment to do what you do and how you feel about the world? Oh, I love the question, the   Nick Prefontaine ** 39:22 so there has always been,   Speaker 1 ** 39:26 there has always been this voice in in the back of my head. So after I got out of after I ran out of the hospital and went through all my outpatient rehab, and really, once I finished and graduated school, graduated high school,   Speaker 1 ** 39:43 I've always kind of had this voice in the back of my head that's been telling me that whatever I'm being successful in, whether it's sales, real estate, anything   Speaker 1 ** 39:55 that voice has always been saying, Yeah, that's great, but what you really.   Speaker 1 ** 40:00 Need to be doing is helping individuals through their trauma and to be able to thrive with the rest of their lives. And I've really always   Speaker 1 ** 40:14 kind of unknowingly unconsciously gravitated towards people that have had a setback or a life challenge, and it's been for the fact that whenever something happens, whether it's an accident or a sudden illness or a sudden health thing, that that sets people back. Anyone who knows me and my story, they always say, Oh, if you talk to Nick, you have to talk to Nick. And I've always helped them through their trauma, their life challenge or trauma, and help them get through and then thrive with the rest of their lives. And I've throughout the years, Michael, I've always, I've always unknowingly, unconsciously share this step system with them to help them realize just that to get through their trauma and thrive with the rest of their lives. It wasn't, it wasn't until,   Speaker 1 ** 41:15 wasn't until a little bit late more recently, so was back in September of 2019   Speaker 1 ** 41:23 that someone approached me, and I've I've been fortunate. I've had the ability, because of our our real estate coaching and mentoring business, that I have with my family, with my dad and my brother in law, that I've always had the opportunity to do a little speaking do tell my story from stage at our events. And we've been having events since 2016   Speaker 1 ** 41:55 so I've always, I've always been blessed where I've I've at least had that opportunity to get up and share my story.   Nick Prefontaine ** 42:04 However, that's   Nick Prefontaine ** 42:07 that's only been 1515,   Speaker 1 ** 42:10 maybe 20. Maybe the Max would be 25   Speaker 1 ** 42:15 minutes that I've been able to share my story. Then someone who saw me speak at our at our event, our qls event. We call it the qls Quantum Leap systems event   Speaker 1 ** 42:29 in September. We have another one coming up here in September, but someone that saw me speak in 2019 at at that approach me,   Nick Prefontaine ** 42:40 and she said,   Speaker 1 ** 42:43 I love your story. Love the love the way that you you shared it. If you're ever looking to fine tune your message and bring it to another level so you're able to impact and affect the most amount of people possible, let me know, and I can introduce you to a few mentors and coaches and speaker bureaus and help you get started.   Speaker 1 ** 43:13 She made it clear she wasn't, wasn't trying to steal me away from my dad or our family business. But if I ever, if I ever wanted to explore that. So at the time, I, at the time, I was still dealing going through the final throws of my voice issue, as I said, the last treatment that I got was February 13 of 2020,   Speaker 1 ** 43:38 and I still wasn't ready. I was still I still had a few more hurdles to go through, a few more injections to get and I wasn't ready. However, I always held on to her card, and   Speaker 1 ** 43:55 I finally reached out to her in May of 2021, so one.   Speaker 1 ** 44:03 Then I set a book. I said, Art, I'm ready.   Speaker 1 ** 44:07 Who should I talk to? How do I get started about that offer that you offer me 18 months ago, and   Speaker 1 ** 44:16 she introduced me to Tricia, who has Tricia Brooke, who's become a friend and mentor of mine, and ever since she made that introduction and I had that first call with Tricia three years ago, a little over three years ago, there has been no voice in the back of my head. Michael, so what that's evidence of to me is that I'm doing exactly what I was put on this shirt to do well. And so do you still do real estate, or are you now doing more coaching and so on and speaking full time? So I I'm still involved in our I have the the good fortune.   Speaker 1 ** 45:00 In, I have the ability to do both. So I'm still doing real estate and also, and this is interesting about the the time frame not to say   Speaker 1 ** 45:11 kind of Whoa, look at me really out. This is just to   Nick Prefontaine ** 45:17 share the   Speaker 1 ** 45:21 kind of the importance and how far a mentor or a coach can take you. That's why I like to share this story. So   Speaker 1 ** 45:31 as I said, I only spoke for maybe 1520 maybe 25 minutes max, before I before I met Trisha and now I give keynotes to brain injury associations and other organizations that support people that are going through trauma, whether it's a trauma life challenge or otherwise. I give 4550 and 60 minute keynotes. Whereas before her, I would, I was only speaking for 1520, 25 minutes max. So   Speaker 1 ** 46:09 I, I always like to share that, because it just drives a point home the importance of a mentor,   Michael Hingson ** 46:16 right? Well, so you, you teach the step system. How do you do that? What? What is the process to teach that? Because it seems very intellectual and so on. But so, how do you teach step?   Speaker 1 ** 46:31 So step is really, it's about applying the step system. So within, within step, there's, a bunch of different bullet points, if you will, about like one of those. One of those for support is make sure that you have your advocate right from the beginning. And this doesn't, this doesn't necessarily have to be a family member. That's why people always hear the word family and they try to latch on to that. It can be anyone, it can be a neighbor, it can be a co worker that's always been there, always been around and looking, looking to help you out. But it has to be someone who will be an advocate, yeah, exactly right, someone, someone who's around, always, always looking to help you. So that's one of the things I talk about within step and it's really as far as the step system. It's really helping them to apply the step system to their life and their situation. Now I do have, I do have one thing which is in addition now the ebook step, which is going to teach you, I'll give you at the end step, the ebook gonna teach you all about support, trust, energy and persistence. That's free, and that's really a great way to take take your first step today. Then after you go through that, if you're looking to kind of bring it to another level, I have step the video course, and that's really that's only $37   Speaker 1 ** 48:13 and what that entails is for each Letter,   Speaker 1 ** 48:18 so support, trust, energy and persistence for each letter. Uh, there's a coaching video from me that's going to walk you through how you go about applying the step system to your life, your setback, your trauma, your situation, and allow you to move forward. Each letter also comes with a workbook and coaching videos and emails from me, which is going to have you have me continually in your corner. So that's the that's really the steps. It's the free,   Nick Prefontaine ** 48:59 no pun intended.   Speaker 1 ** 49:02 It's that that's the that's kind of the process is the ebook, then step the video series, which is only $37   Speaker 1 ** 49:14 then after you go through that, then we can, if you're still interested in working together, we can jump on the phone to kind of uncover and discuss what it would be like working together, one on one. And I usually do one on one clients for either three or six months, depending on your situation. You started something called common goal. Tell us about that.   Speaker 1 ** 49:40 Common goal is alright. So really, everything that   Nick Prefontaine ** 49:47 I've been able to kind of uncover   Speaker 1 ** 49:51 from my recovery, and that includes the step system,   Speaker 1 ** 49:56 was because of my mentor, Tricia Paul.   Speaker 1 ** 50:00 Pulling it out of me when we were 21 together. So if I can take you back, I know, I know I talked about since I had that first initial call with Trisha, I told you that there's been no voice in the back of my head. Well how that call went. I shared my goals with her and the impact that I was looking to make with her. And I said, Do you think that's possible? And she said, absolutely. I said, Okay, what do you recommend? She said that I recommend the speaker salon, which is and I said, What's the speaker salon? She said, Well, you commute to New York City for six weeks in a row. So for five weeks you get to work on your eight to 10 minute talk, and then on the on the sixth week, you perform it in front of influencers, decision makers, event organizers, TEDx organizers, people who can book you to speak,   Speaker 1 ** 51:05 so that that's what I think. That's what she told me she thought I should do. I said, All right, well, what? What is that? And she said, that's 25,000   Speaker 1 ** 51:13 i i said, yeah, yes, absolutely that. And I made the commitment right there and that I wanted to do that, because I saw   Speaker 1 ** 51:24 it was a it was a wholehearted yes for me, and it was a wholehearted yes because I knew it was a part of my path, part of my calling, to be able to tell my story From stage in front of individuals, and also help individuals that are going through trauma. So I said, Yes, did that? Completed that. Then during the speaker song, Michael, she approached me   Speaker 1 ** 51:53 and said that she works one on one with individuals to help them build out their speaker platform,   Speaker 1 ** 52:02 and I didn't I didn't even know what that was. I didn't even know what a speaker platform was. I didn't even know what that meant. However, from my experience working with her for several weeks in the speaker salon, I just knew this was what I wanted, and what I wanted was to continue to   Speaker 1 ** 52:25 get her brain and her thoughts on on myself and and   Speaker 1 ** 52:33 my situation, so I can impact and and affect individuals. So I said, Yes. She said, that's 75,000   Speaker 1 ** 52:43 I said, Okay, well, you're gonna have to give me a week to kind of figure out where I'm gonna where I'm gonna get the money for that. So I didn't have 75,000 underneath my mattress. So what I did, I went and applied for financing, and six days later, I ended up sending her the funds. She was the one that helped me to launch common goal. So in January of 2022, working one on one with her,   Speaker 1 ** 53:16 was a six or seven month contract that was our one on one, more together. I would have a call with her once every two weeks, two or three weeks, and she was the one that really helped me launch common goal and uncovered the step system. Michael, as I was saying, she pulled it out at me to the point where she was asking me, all right, so   Speaker 1 ** 53:43 you got in the snowboarding accident, and then you ran out of the hospital. How'd you do it?   Speaker 1 ** 53:50 I said, I don't know. I just I did it. I got up every day and just kept working every day until I got to where I wanted to go. And she goes,   Michael Hingson ** 53:59 No, not good enough. Yeah, I agree with her,   Speaker 1 ** 54:04 how'd you do it? So she kept asking me, I think it went seven or eight layers deep. Her asking me, how did I do it to a point, Michael, where I was so frustrated, I was like, I don't know. Stop asking me that question, and   Speaker 1 ** 54:22 what came out of that, though, was the step system.   Speaker 1 ** 54:27 So the step system is what I teach to this day. And she also helped me to write several keynote talks, which, as I, as I share with you I'm now delivering for brain injury associations and other associations that support individuals that are going through trauma. So with, I'm sorry, go ahead.   Speaker 1 ** 54:52 I was just going to say without, without that introduction, uh, three years ago.   54:59 Um.   Speaker 1 ** 55:00 From Sharon. Sharon spanne was the one that introduced me to Trisha.   Speaker 1 ** 55:06 I wouldn't be or, who knows how long it would have take me, or if I be where I am today. So I'm very fortunate of that. So what is common goal?   Michael Hingson ** 55:19 Is it an organization. Is it? You know what? What is it?   Speaker 1 ** 55:23 Yeah, it. It's my company. So we support individuals who are going through trauma to thrive with the rest of their lives, very simply put. And as I said, we're doing, I'm doing a lot of speaking at brain injury associations and other associations that are supporting individuals that are going through trauma, sharing the step system, spreading the message, and also then that what comes out of that is working one on one, with   Michael Hingson ** 55:56 with individuals. Got it to thrive with the rest of their lives. Are you able to do that virtually, or is it only in person? Or how does that work?   Speaker 1 ** 56:08 That's a great question. So there is nothing like being in person, sure,   Speaker 1 ** 56:15 and dealing with someone one on one. However, the nature of the world, you can't you can't be there in person and flying around just to meet with people one on one. So it is something that that can be done virtually.   Speaker 1 ** 56:32 However, interspersed in there, I love there to be a person, if at all possible, a personal touch. That's always my my preference. And if there's some way we're meeting, we're either we meet up somewhere, there's some way that we can meet face to face and really develop that personal connection, that's cool. So   Michael Hingson ** 56:57 it, and I agree, it's always nice to be able to do things in person, it's so much better. But the the value of the world today, if you're able to do it, is to doing things virtually. Gives you the potential to to teach   Michael Hingson ** 57:14 to a wider, I don't want to say audience, because I think a lot of the teaching is probably one on one, but to a wider   Michael Hingson ** 57:22 group of people, but it's really exciting that you're you're doing it, and none of it would have happened if you hadn't gone through the injury. And I wonder if it would have happened if you had had a helmet on back at the injury.   Nick Prefontaine ** 57:41 This is always,   Nick Prefontaine ** 57:43 this is not a,   Speaker 1 ** 57:45 what should we call it? This isn't something I talk about all the time. However, what the doctor said, obviously,   Speaker 1 ** 57:55 a helmet versus not a helmet, like a helmet, you always, you always say, Yeah, helmets better for you. However,   Speaker 1 ** 58:02 the doctors said that because of the force with which my head hit the ice, that they don't, they don't even know how much difference a helmet would have made, but the goggles made a big difference. It would have, yeah, absolutely, it would have, it would have split right their opinion. I mean, who knows? Like, I don't know. We don't know. However, if I were to have the choice, I, I, I'd like a helmet,   Speaker 1 ** 58:35 as opposed to not everyone. So I'm a, I'm a huge advocate of helmets, like helmet safety. I just that's,   Speaker 1 ** 58:43 that's not something I talk about little known fact. So what   Michael Hingson ** 58:49 was it like? I'll ask this, and we've been doing this a while, but what was it like running out of the hospital? It was,   Speaker 1 ** 58:59 I can go right back to that day. Mm, hmm, I bet you can. So it was April, April 24 2003   Speaker 1 ** 59:08 and on that day I went to, I went, there was a, there was a pizza, there was a there was a pizza shop right next door to the hospital. So we walked. I had several goals. So running out of the hospital was the main goal. However, the food goal, like so I could swallow, like, swallow, right? Was a coke and a grinder. There you go, Coke because it was a soda and the bubbles irritate your throat, so it's not something you think about. However,   Speaker 1 ** 59:47 it wasn't like the soda was free flowing in the hospital. So that was always a goal of mine, a coke in a grinder for those non New Englanders out there. I.   Nick Prefontaine ** 1:00:00 Was a sandwich,   Speaker 1 ** 1:00:03 yeah, like, like, a turkey, a turkey sandwich. So that was always my   Nick Prefontaine ** 1:00:08 that was always my goal. I actually think it might have been a meatball, but,   Speaker 1 ** 1:00:13 well, I digress. I digress. So I remember that day we I walked over next door to the hospital with my physical therapist and my mom, and I can really, I can see the pizza shop, like walking in the door and getting that aroma and ordering and just realizing my goal. And then after that, I ran. After I came out, we came out for having lunch. I ran across the parking lot diagonally, and I raised my physical therapist, who was running backwards. I raced her. I don't even remember who won, but as you can see, that's a that's a really vivid memory for me. That was,   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:01 oh, it was amazing. And like, it like I shared, it wasn't, wasn't like my work was done. I had to, you know, continue to work. But that that was a big day for sure. Well, Nick, this has been remarkable in a lot of ways, and definitely inspiring. And clearly, you are an unstoppable person by any standard. And I'm glad that we got to have this connection, and we got to talk about this. And you tell the story, I think it's an important story. I keep thinking about your parents, who were, as you point out, very strong advocates. I had the same situation, because when it was discovered I was blind, my parents were told to send me off to a home, and my parents refused, and it was because of their advocacy that I developed the attitudes that I did about life, and clearly that is very much the same for you, whether it was Your parents or you had a, probably a larger support system in a lot of ways than than I did initially. But still, the bottom line is that you had the advocates, and that is extremely important. And I agree with you that anytime any of us are are different,   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:17 or are facing any kind of situation, having advocates is extremely important, and it's always good to find advocates to be part of our lives. Absolutely, absolutely, 100%   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:30 Well, I want to thank you for being here with us. We We did an hour without a lot of difficulty, just just like I said we would, and just like we talked about so I want to thank you for being here, and I want to thank everyone for listening. Nick's story is incredible and amazing in so many ways, and clearly unstoppable. So you mentioned the ebook. Tell me about how people can get that. Yeah, absolutely. So what, uh, what we covered here was really just a 10,000 foot view of the step system, um, if they go to or when they go to Nick prefontaine.com,   Speaker 1 ** 1:03:09 forward slash step and spell Prefontaine, if you would. Yeah, sure, I'll spell the whole thing. Okay, hey, it's n, i, c, k, P, R, E, F, O N, T, A, I n, e.com,   Speaker 1 ** 1:03:27 forward slash, step, S, T, E, P,   Speaker 1 ** 1:03:33 they can download the whole step system for free, and In that they're going to learn all about support, trust, energy and persistence. And as I was saying earlier, it's a great first step, and they're going to be able to that will allow them to take that first step today,   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:56 and if they want to then follow up and reach out to you and learn from you and so on. How do they do that?   Speaker 1 ** 1:04:04 They can also, there's a contact, there's a Contact button on the website. Well, right, yeah, right from the website they they should be able to, they should be able to do that, do that, but like or and like I was sharing earlier, the the steps would be to go through, keep saying that,   Speaker 1 ** 1:04:24 okay, would go, would go through step the ebook, then do step the video series, the video course, and then after, after you've gone through those so we're speaking the same language, then we can hop On the phone to determine what our what our work would be like together, one on one. And I'm assuming in the eBook, it also gives the contact information to reach out and go further. Yeah, absolutely, yeah. So I'll include Well, super well, Nick.   Michael Hingson ** 1:04:55 Thank you very much for being here, and I want to thank all of you who are listening.   Michael Hingson ** 1:05:01 Watching, and if you're on YouTube watching, we really appreciate you being here and allowing us to invite you in, to be part of our family, and we want to become part of yours. I would really love it if any of you who would do so would give us a five star rating wherever you're listening to us. We value, we appreciate and value your ratings very highly.   Michael Hingson ** 1:05:23 I'm sure that Nick would love to hear from you, and he is giving you ways to reach out to him. So please do that for me. I'd love to hear from you. You can reach me through email easily. At Michael M, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I at, accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, I, B, e.com,   Michael Hingson ** 1:05:41 so Michael h i@accessibe.com   Michael Hingson ** 1:05:43 or go to www dot Michael hingson.com/podcast,   Michael Hingson ** 1:05:50 and that's m, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s, o, n.com/podcast,   Michael Hingson ** 1:05:55 and you can listen to all of our episodes if you're not listening to us somewhere else. But we would really love your thoughts and your opinions. Nick for you and all of you listening, if you know of anyone else who we ought to have on as a guest on unstoppable mindset, please let us know. Bring them on. Introduce us. We are always looking for guests, so I really value getting to meet more people, as I love to tell people, if I'm not learning at least as much as anybody else who comes on the podcast, I'm not doing my job well, and I've had the value and the joy of getting to learn from so many people like Nick. So please let us know if you have any guests, we'd love to hear from you.   Michael Hingson ** 1:06:38 So again, Nick, thank you very much. We really appreciate you being here. This has been a lot of fun, and I appreciate your time, and we hope that you'll come back again and visit.   Nick Prefontaine ** 1:06:48 Thanks, Michael, I have a blast, and I can't wait to do it again.   **Michael Hingson ** 1:06:56 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

I've long been one to say to someone who's paralyzed about the direction they see their lives going in or goals they want to achieve – experiences they want to have – to say, “Why not “and?” After they look at me kinda funny, I'll explain. “Why can't you be a plumber and a painter? A mother and an ad exec? That's what this week's SelfWork guest has accomplished. She's an internal medicine doctor and she's a comic. A stand-up comic at that. Named by Refinery29 as one of the 50 Female Stand-Up Comedians You Need To Know", Priyanka Wali is a stand-up comic who also believes strongly in mind/body connection and the importance of fear in true transformation. I think you'll love this conversation! She's also the co-host of HypochondriActor with Sean Hayes (yes the guy from Will and Grace…). I know you'll enjoy talking about her story and how you might use it as motivation for your own! After all, why can't life be an “and?” Advertisers' Links: We welcome back BiOptimizers and Magnesium Breakthrough as a returning sponsor to SelfWork and they have a new offer! Just click here! Make sure you use the code "selfwork10" to check out free product Click HERE for the NEW fabulous offer from AG1 - with bonus product with your subscription! Episode Transcript:   Speaker 2: Dr. Margaret This is SelfWork. And I'm Dr. Margaret Rutherford. At SelfWork, we'll discuss psychological and emotional issues common in today's world and what to do about them. I'm Dr. Margaret and SelfWork is a podcast dedicated to you taking just a few minutes today for your own selfwork. Hello and welcome or welcome back to SelfWork. I'm Dr. Margaret Rutherford. I'm a clinical psychologist, and I started this podcast just about seven years ago to extend the walls of my practice to many of you, some of you very interested in therapy or psychological issues, but also perhaps those of you who are a bit skeptical about the whole thing. So, I have a great interview for today and before beginning, here's a message and an offer from AG1, the Greens mix I take every morning to get my day started on the right track. Okay... Occasionally I miss a day, gotta say that, but I try to remember every day 'cause it makes a difference. AG1 Advertisement:  Our next partner is AG1, the daily foundational nutrition supplement that supports whole body health. I drink it literally every day. I gave AG1 a try because I wanted a single solution that supports my entire body and covers my nutritional bases every day. I wanted better gut health, a boost in energy immune system support. I take it in the morning before starting my day, and I make sure and leave it out for my husband because he tends to forget. I love knowing that I'm starting my day so incredibly well and I wouldn't change a thing because it's really helped me the last two or three years I've taken it. And here's a fact. Since 2010, they've improved their formula 52 times in the pursuit of making this nutrition supplement possible and the best it can be. So if you wanna take ownership of your health, it starts with AG1. Try AG1 and get a free one-year supply of Vitamin D and five free AG1 travel packs with your first purchase. Go to drinkAG1.com/selfwork, and that's a new link. DrinkAG1.com/selfwork. Check it out. Dr. Margaret I've long been one to say to someone who's paralyzed about the direction they see their lives going in or goals they wanna achieve, experiences they wanna have... They always say, "Well, I've gotta have this or this, but I've gotta make the perfect choice. I've gotta try this or this." And my question to them is, "Why isn't it an "and"? And after they look at me, kind of funny, I'll explain, "wWhy can't you be a plumber AND a painter, a mother AND an ad exec? We don't have to limit ourselves. We can be "AND",  not this or this. And that's what our guest has accomplished. She's an internal medicine doctor and she's a comic, a standup comic, by the way, who was named by Refinery 29 as one of the top female standup comedians that you need to know. Her name is Priyanka Wali. And she's the co-host of HypochondriActor with Sean Hayes, the guy from Will and Grace that probably a lot of you know, It's a great, great podcast and I'm delighted to have her on SelfWork as a true "And" - er . Here's one more sponsor message. This one from BiOptimizers and Magnesium Breakthrough. I use it every night just like I use AG1e in the morning. And that's my own AND,  I guess, Magnesium Breakthrough Advertisement: Hey guys, I wanna share with you that recently I've been working on some very important projects that have very short deadlines, as always, right? It seems everything today is a S A P. Anyway, I have not been able to keep up with all of my self-care routine. I certainly haven't had breaks to have proper meals, and I'm drinking way too much ice tea. I was starting to get really stressed out when I remembered that the magnesium breakthrough I take every night is also a great support for stress management. And I'd kind of forgotten that. In fact, magnesium is responsible for over 300 body reactions. And magnesium breakthrough is the only magnesium formula that delivers all seven different forms of magnesium. I didn't know there were seven forms, one of them being feeling more calm, centered, and in control of our stress. If you are trying to balance life demands, give it a try. Trust me, your mind and your body will thank you for it. What you can do is visit mag breakthrough.com/ self-work and order now. Oh, in addition to the discount you get by using promo code self-work 10. So that's different self-work. 10. They're also amazing gifts with purchase. That's why I love shopping it by optimizers. Again, go to mag breakthrough.com/ self-work to get your magnesium breakthrough and find out this month's gift with purchase. Episode 356 with Priyanka Wali.  Realize you can support self-work by supporting our sponsors. And now, Priyanka Wally, Speaker 2: Dr. Margaret I started off my morning by listening to your comedy routine . Speaker 3: Dr. Priyanka Wali Oh, which one? Which bit did you check out? Speaker 2:  the one on your Website? Speaker 3: The one? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Speaker 2: And I laughed. I just thought, I've known some in and out guys. Speaker 3: . Oh man. Yeah, that takes me back. You know, I haven't, I haven't, you know, after the pandemic hit, you know, obviously comedy changed and performing in person totally changed. And I remember going back on stage in 2021, so, you know, we were kind of used to reentry, we were opening up a little bit, and the vibe was just really different. And so I've, I've slowly been getting my feet Speaker 2: Thought about that. How was it different, Priyanka? Speaker 3: Well, first of all, you know, having, it was an outdoor show and most people were wearing masks. But even if you're doing an indoor show, you, it's hard to see people's facial expressions if they're masked. Right? So that, you know, to me, standup has always been a relationship between the, the performer and the audience. It's a connection. And when you, you know, cover the face for obvious important reasons, safety reasons it, it sort of breaks that connection. And so what I found was that I enjoyed comedy, less enjoyed performing less after the pandemic. And I actually took a break from comedy and I sort of went back to like, "Okay, what does bring me joy? Like, what is this really about?" And I went to France and I actually studied clowning with Philippe Goer, who's a world renowned clowning expert. And I went back to the basics of like, okay, physical comedy, like comedy with your body and not just your neck up mind voice. And then I sort of came into singing parody songs. And that's kind of the new stuff that I'm working on now. Really? Yeah. So I'm taking my comedy and I'm turning it into more parody songs, and I've released a few small clips on Instagram. But I'm planning on releasing a longer video at some point. So that's kind of what I'm working on. And that's like part of the transformation as an artist, which is, it's an incredible journey. Speaker 2: Well, you know and I wanna, I wanna back up and we, we kinda started in the middle, didn't we? Or I did. Yeah. Yeah. And so I wanna back up and, and talk about how you got to be, but you know, I'm a huge advocate of, of, AND kind of lives. I am this AND I'm that, and I'm something else. Mm-Hmm. . So I love that you're living your life that way. Oh, thank you. I also listened to the last podcast that you and Sean did. Mm-Hmm. . And I thought the story about your either great-grandfather or your grandfather was so touching that Wali is actually the Arabic name. Mm-Hmm. healer or helper. Speaker 3: Yeah. Helper. Helper. Or like friend, friend of man, helper of man. Yeah. Yeah. It was a name bestowed upon us. Yeah. Speaker 2: Incredible. Speaker 3: . Yeah. Yeah. When I, when I learned that for the first time, and it sort of changed my relationship with my own name, you know, I always thought I didn't really have a relationship, but then once I realized it was sort of like, gifted, I was like, Wow, that's, that's, there was an identity shift and you know, there's a sense of humility and gratitude as well. Speaker 2: You know, when you hear stories like that. My grandmother was named Emma Clayton Robinson, and I remember asking one time why was, why was her middle name Clayton? And the story was that I'm from the south, I'm from Arkansas, and her mother and father's home was taken over by the Yankees during the Civil War by a General Clayton. Speaker 3: Okay. Speaker 2: He was so kind to them that they, when my grandmother was born, she was named Emma Clayton Robinson. Speaker 3: Wow. Speaker 2: And Clayton has become one of our family names, which is just so, I don't know, it adds something to your understanding of your family and what has happened, and of course, Speaker 3: Right. Speaker 2: It's just, I don't know, there's something about that kind of tradition or g legacy that's just fascinating to me. Speaker 3: Yeah. And I'm curious, do you know what, what was the name prior to Clayton before that? Speaker 2: Well, no, she had not been. She was born and then, and then they named her Emma Clayton Robinson. Speaker 3: Wow. Wow. Yeah. There's so many complexities to that story, because on one hand, this, this person was the oppressor. They came in and they took, you know, your family home and your land. Right. And yet they were a kind, oppressor, kind enough for us to name them after them. It's like, there's so many nuances to that, that story. It's, it's very complex. It certainly could, would be totally justifiable to bring up a lot of different set of feelings around that. Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so. So I wanna find out about your journey. You are a physician. Mm-Hmm. , you're an internal medicine physician. Mm-Hmm. . And I think you also have training in OB obesity, is that right? Speaker 3: Correct. Yeah. Double board certified. Mm-Hmm. double board certified. Speaker 2:  And so, and, and then, and you know, you, you've laughed with your co-host Sean, about I really wanna be just a doctor on tv and Yeah. Speaker 3: , I just want a small rule on Grey's Anatomy. Is that too much to ask? I mean, come on. Speaker 2: So I would love to hear you know, there's a lot of doctors in your family and you told that story, but Yeah. How, how did you decide to become a physician? And are you, are, are you American born? Are you, were you born in India or were you born in America? Speaker 3: Yeah, great question. So I was born in the United States, so I'm Kary Pundit. So my family originates from Northern Kashmir, and that region was actually affected by genocide as recent as 1991. And so that led to a diaspora and immigration all over the world. And my family chose the United States. And so I was born in Los Angeles, but I actually spent some early formative years going back and forth between India and the United States up until I was age three. And so, you know, my childhood upbringing you know, my parents were doctors, their siblings are doctors. Their kids are doctors. I mean, and, and the lineage goes further up the chain. So healing was really, we would not have normal dinner discussions. You know, like the, the dinner table discussions were about, like, the cases my dad had and like, you know, all this sort of preventive medicine stuff. And so I joke, you know, like I sort of came out of the womb holding a stethoscope. It was something that I lived, breathed. It wasn't until I went to college that I was like, oh, people can do other things. You know what I mean? And I always had an artistic side to me. And so I always loved performing arts and creative writing, and that's always been a, a very big part of my sort of soul's energy. And at the same time, the science had also would come to me quite easily. And so I found myself you know, going through the pre-med classes and I actually was accepted into a program coming out of high school called a Baccalaureate MD program. It no longer exists, but it was a program where you basically got accepted into medical school coming out of high school. Really? It was a, yeah, it was a very competitive program. They only took, I think like 12 or 15 people all across the United States. And so I knew, I knew out of high school that I was gonna go to med school. Yeah. And I can't say honestly though, that that was what I wanted. I think there was a part of me that really was you know, I loved creative arts. I loved performing. And I couldn't see a path if I were to pursue medicine. But I, I grew up in a very traditional Indian family. Like, I had a tremendous amount of pressure from my parents. Like, no, you have to go to med school. Like, that's gonna happen. Yeah. And so, you know, again, because the science would come to me easily, I decided to, to sort of give it a go and give it a chance. You know, in hindsight I wish I had taken some time off in between undergrad and med school. 'cause I went straight through. And I, I don't necessarily recommend that. I think if I had had more time to sort of develop and simmer as a human being you know, I, I wasn't really a human being by the time I went to HU Med School. I was just this concept, you know, I was so undeveloped as a person. Speaker 2: So you followed the structure that your parents wanted you to follow, and really hadn't had a whole lot of autonomy about Speaker 3: That. Totally. Yeah. And, you know, it would come out in these different ways. Like I, you know, when I was a med student, I joined this local improv troupe in East Los Angeles, you know, and I would have these little pockets of things that I would do to create balance. Sure. And it's funny now because the work that I do as a, as a physician, I, I am very passionate about it now, but I think it's because I've taken much more of a an an identity that this is part of social justice activism in terms of like, what is going on right now with the current medical paradigm and you, what needs to change. I feel like very compelled now to be involved with this and to be a part of this. Because at the end of the day, we're all connected. And I feel like I was given a set of privileges by being born into a family that, you know, was all healthcare providers on some aspect. And I feel like it would really be a, a waste to, to squander those gifts essentially. Mm-Hmm. . And so it's funny 'cause now I, I really love what I do and the way I've sort of built my life. I mean, I'm definitely not working like a traditional medical doctor at like, you know, a major hospital or anything like that. I mean, I have my own private practice and I, the way I think about healing, I would say it's, it's more consistent with like a new paradigm as opposed to the older paradigm. You know, in terms of integrated, Speaker 2: More holistic, Speaker 3: More holistic integrative, you know, thinking about issues from a mind body perspective as opposed to the current, you know, the current paradigm is like, you have a heart problem, you go to a heart doctor, you have a kidney problem, you go to a kidney doctor, you have a mind problem, you go to the mind doctor. It's like that. It's very disconnected and, you know, there's no more like general doctors anymore. I mean, it's like, it's a rare dying breed. And so I am really trying to bring a callback to, Hey, let's look at the whole person. Let's treat the whole person. This is not just a mind issue or a body issue. This is a mind body issue. And essentially we are all mind body spirits. Yeah. Speaker 2: Yeah. Couldn't agree more. So I was always interested, and I remember asking my sort of, she's my manager you know, why does Priyanka wanna come on SelfWork? I mean, why does she wanna come on a mental health podcast? And I, I wanna ask you that question. I was so intrigued that, you know, and it sounds like it's very may maybe tied into this, well, one, of course, you're an example of someone who is saying, don't be, don't be governed by, you know, what other people expect of you. But make sure that you're, you're zoning in and really expressing the parts of yourself that bring you joy and, and that kind of thing. Which I think is wonderful. I didn't know if you had any history with depression or anxiety or anything like that, but it also sounds like maybe it's tied in with more of this holistic view of things. Speaker 3: Yeah, I think, I think you're hitting the nail on the head. So, so yeah. I, I actually, I've talked about this publicly. I think there was an article in Women's Health Magazine where I actually was very depressed in medical school. In fact, I didn't realize that I had the signs and symptoms of clinical depression until my psychiatry rotation in medical training Oh. . Where I was interviewing people. Yeah. I was interviewing people who were severely clinically depressed. And I was walking away from these interviews with individuals and I was like, there's really no difference between me and this person that like, probably needs to be hospitalized. And you know, I, it was then that I, yeah. So it was then that I realized that, you know, I had severe clinical depression and I needed to be on antidepressants for a period of time in medical training. And what, what in hindsight coming out of that, what really was going on is that I was in a very difficult situation. The medical system, the medical training system, it's actually a very oppressive system. And I didn't have the best coping skills. I didn't even know what therapy was at the time. And fortunately that's when I learned about treatments, like cognitive behavioral therapy. And I started therapy. I saw a psychiatrist and was able to get the help that I needed. And then when I graduated medical school, my depression symptoms went away and I was able to get off the meds. And I haven't had a relapse of depression to that severity since then. Speaker 2: So it was probably very situational and that kind of thing. It was Speaker 3: Absolutely situational. Yeah. Speaker 2: I have the fancy title of adjunct professor at University of Arkansas Medical School. Mm-Hmm. Medical School of Medical Sciences, I think it's called mm-hmm. . And I laughed and said, I don't even get a parking place with that. So Speaker 3: . Yeah. Yeah. And Speaker 2: I, I teach a course that's, you know, an hour and a half in one semester or so, it's very little about psychotherapy to medical students. Mm-Hmm. who are psych psychiatry rotation. And one of my major questions is, what do y'all think therapy is? And they just kind of stare at me. Oh, yeah. Like, what are you talking about? You know, and Oh yeah, well now we've learned that this is what you do with this person and this is, and I said, you know what? You gotta throw all that out. 'cause That's not really true. Mm-Hmm. mm-hmm. . But it, it's fascinating how that the, unfortunately the medical school schools still don't really incorporate a whole lot of mental health knowledge and understanding to physicians. Speaker 3: You know, I really appreciate you naming this because it's something I talked about. I think on one of the podcast episodes, you know, in medicine we are sort of taught that if you can't objectively identify the cause of someone's issues, like for example, if you can't get lab work Right. That can corroborate or a CAT scan or something like that, you we're, we're literally taught, or at least back when I was in med school, I was taught that you need to conclude that this is a psychosomatic issue. And once you label someone as having a psychosomatic issue, you kind of wash your hands of it and move on. What the deficit in education right now that's happening in the system, I think physicians especially need to be taught the next step. Right. If you're gonna label someone as having a psychosomatic issue, the next training is understanding, okay, well what is the emotion that's linking to that physical symptom? Speaker 2: Well, the trauma or the Yeah, exactly. The, what's going on? Name what's going on with the patient. I, I love it. I did my dissertation yeah, my dissertation on conversion disorders, Speaker 3: So, okay. Sure. Speaker 2: I was, you know, bridging the gap between, for those listeners who don't know what conversion disorders are, they are disorders that are, that are psychologically based, but can can mimic mm-hmm. Speaker 3: Speaker 2: Make true medical problems. And I did mine on Pseudoseizures mm-hmm. , which was someone looks like they're having a seizure, but there's no actual abnormal EEG activity, so, right. Although they can be mixed anyway, enough about that. Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. I'm always I'm so glad that more, at least there's a movement toward physicians moving there's a movement toward moving , Speaker 3:, a lot of movement, a lot Speaker 2: Of movement, lot of movement toward integrative, or that's kind of this kind of medicine. 'cause I just think it's vital. Speaker 3: Oh, not only is it vital, Margaret, I I actually am at the point in my career where I am sort of, if anyone's gonna call themselves a physician or even a healer for that matter. Yeah. and they don't have a basic understanding of this type of education. They actually have an incomplete education of how healing actually works in human beings. And so what I would love to see more of is more education for medical students, especially helping them understand how to name emotions and the effects that that has on the human body. Speaker 2: Sure. Sure. Because isn't there research, in fact, I've read some research that says the brain actually doesn't, can't tell the difference between physical pain and emotional pain. Speaker 3: That's correct. Actually, yes. When we experience emotional pain, it activates the same receptors of the brain. This is through functional MRI studies, it activates the same receptors of the brain as if we were to experience physical pain. Fascinating. Fascinating. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, all we're naming here again, is this is more and more evidence of how we need to move towards a mind body model, a model in medicine. And I do believe this will be the next paradigm where we start to look at human beings as mind bodies and not just bodies with minds. Speaker 2: Right, right. Bio psychosocial, Speaker 3: Spiritual. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Exactly. Speaker 2: Okay, so let's switch gears. Okay.  Talk about the clown part of you, or the funny part of you, the comedic part of you. You have a wonderful podcast yourself that's very, very popular. It's called, let me see if I can not This Hypo Dry actor Hypo Speaker 3: Hypochondriac. hypochondria. I'm so Speaker 2: Used to saying the word hypori, called it . Speaker 3: Yeah, totally. We just call it hypo for sure. Speaker 2: And your partner is, your partner in crime, Speaker 3: Is the lovely Sean Hayes, who you may know from a small show called Will and Grace tiny little show. Yeah. Speaker 2: In fact, my trainer, I was working out this morning and I was told him who I was, who I was interviewing. He goes it did you say that her co her cohort, you know, her partner is, is Sean Hayes. And I said, yeah. Oh, I can't wait to tell my girlfriend that you're interviewing someone . Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, Sean's darling. I love working with him. It's, it's been a pleasure. And I don't know when this episode's getting released, but he's currently on Broadway at the moment. So I do, I do miss him because he is, he's very, very busy on Broadway. But it has been just an absolute joy working alongside with him. Oh, great. He brings, you're, oh, thank you. Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. It's, it's so easy to work with someone who's so lighthearted as Sean, and he brings just a lot of joy and humor and, you know, in on the podcast we're talking about, we can talk about some pretty serious things, pretty heavy things. And, you know, that that lightness that he brings, it allows us to kind of go to places where maybe we wouldn't necessarily be able to go if this was a more serious kind of heavy podcast. Mm-Hmm. , you know, it's so important when you're interviewing celebrities or anyone who's willing to share something vulnerable about creating a safe space so that people feel like they can share. And so I feel really grateful to be working alongside him. Speaker 2: And you answer questions from listeners about, is it only medical issues that they call in about? Or is it Yes. Speaker 3: Yeah. So people like to call in and share their medical stories. And it's been also, that has been a very, very humbling experience. You know, the, the callers that call in and the, the depths of their shares, you know, as the show has progressed, the shares have been more and more vulnerable, which we so appreciate. And what I love about the shares is that people will many times call in and say, you know, I thought I was the only person that had blah, blah, blah, but after listening to this episode, I realize I'm not, and I have it too. And this is my experience. And that's, to me is what this is really about. You know, connecting us, reminding us that we're all one people. We're one species. We're human beings, and we, we feel the same things and emotions do connect us. And I think that's so important to remember in this time of such divisiveness Speaker 2: On SelfWork. I also love to, to answer questions from listeners. It's one of my most favorite things to do. And so it's your right. I just feel like there's so many, you know, there's this, again, research will say that there's this explosion of loneliness, and it's true and right. Staring at our screens instead of talking right to another. And so there's this sense of, I must be the only one feeling this. So, so since, since the pandemic happened, what are you doing with you? You said you went to France and you, you're doing this clowning and that kind of thing. Tell us about that part of you. Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, I think in order for me to stay balanced, it is very important that I engage in some kind of play. Yeah. And it can be formal play, like going to study clowning with a renowned clowning expert. But on a day-to-day, like every day, you know, I can't fly to France to study clowning . I do spend a, a significant part of my day. Like, I dance every day. I try and do some kind of movement, you know, especially before I start to see individuals in my private practice. You know, I may put on a song and just move my body and I get really funky and really weird, and I'll growl. I love growling and I love putting my yoga mat out and just like rolling on the floor and just like, moving and arching my back and acting like a total fool. I mean, just like completely just like the, just an animal. But to me, I, it, it's important for me to do that every day. You know, I think we forget that we, human beings, we're animals and we're, we're, so we have to engage in somatic practices, otherwise we'll be very disconnected from our bodies. And in my own healing journey, I've noticed that the more I'm in my body, the more present I am, and the more I can give, the more I can share sort of the gifts that I have. And we all have gifts to share. And I've just noticed that the more I engage in somatic practices, it's easier for me to tap into that and play. I also consider rest to be a really important facet. I mean resting, going slow, taking naps, anything that just, again, keeps the body in flow. Mm-Hmm. . And so yeah, I'm, I'm generally a very silly person. and . Speaker 2: You know, people always ask me, well, how do you do something so serious all day long? And I think I laugh all the time with people, right? Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean, Speaker 2: There's a lot to not, we're not laughing. I'm not laughing at people. I'm laughing with people that I see. We find things too, to laugh about because it's so important for them to laugh. And it's important for me to laugh. Speaker 3: Oh my gosh. Yeah. And laughing is so, you know, there's studies to show that laughter literally will lower cortisol levels in the blood. It'll lower inflammatory markers. I mean, it's, and it's, it's just a, a really great feeling. And I think that's why while I was a resident working 80 hours a week, sure. I gravitated towards standup comedy and performing comedy. 'cause It was this one thing that I could do solo on my own terms. And it, there's an immediate feedback. You make the audience laugh like you've done it. That's the feedback. And it's spontaneous. You can't fake it. Well, maybe you can fake it, but like a real belly laugh. Mm-Hmm. really hard to fake, you know, that big old belly laugh. For those Speaker 2: Listeners who are out there going, how do you, how do you get the courage to stand up there for five or eight minutes and try out these jokes? Because I know from, I've heard enough conversations with, with standup comedians that they, they go to hundreds of these clubs and try material and try out material, and sometimes it dies. I was lucky enough to hear Ellen DeGeneres when she was young. Speaker 3: Oh, nice. Wow. Speaker 2: And, and I can remember thinking, this lady's going somewhere. You know, I was Speaker 3: In . Oh, wow. Speaker 2: And but I know it just must be grueling. And, and I don't know, how did, how did you, how did you rake up or whatever We would say the courage to do it? Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, I was a resident and I had just broken up with a long-term relationship. So I was really going through a process where I was really just re trying to figure out who am I at the coming out of this very long relationship. And I, I sort of took some time and I was like, what is it that I really need? What is it that I really want? And I, I, I searched in and the answer was like, I, I want laughter and I want to make people laugh. And, you know, to be completely honest, standup was a morbid fear of mine. You know, it was something that I could have never imagined myself doing, but I sort of wielded it within myself. I was like, you know what, it's just gonna be a one-time thing. It was supposed to be like a bucket list thing. Like, I'm gonna do standup once, and then that's it. And I'm writing it off. But what happened is, I was in San Francisco training, and I Google searched good place to try standup comedy for the first time in San Francisco. And the first hit that came up on Google was a laundromat slash cafe slash open mic place where people, oh, fun. They have a, they have an open mic and people are like folding their laundry while you're like, telling jokes . And yeah, the website said, this is a good place to try standup comedy for the first time in San Francisco. So I go to Brainwash Cafe slash laundromat, and I, there were three minute sets, so I wrote three minutes of jokes. They were, I, they, now, in hindsight, they weren't funny at all, but they were all I could do at the time. Mm-Hmm. and I go to the laundromat, I do a three minute set, it went well. And just, it happened to be that, that afternoon in the audience was a local producer who produced shows locally in the Bay Area. And he came up to me after my set, he is like, you were really funny. Like, do you wanna do my showcase? Which is in a month? No. And I was shocked. And I was like sure. And he is like, I need you to do 10 minutes and it's next month. See you next month. And so I was like, I told him, yeah, absolutely. But in my mind, I was like, 10 minutes, I don't even have 10 seconds of good material . So, you know, what I ended up doing is I started going to other open mics so I could prep for that one showcase. But then what happened is that at those other open mics, other comedians who had shows, they would see me and they were like, Hey, I want you to do my show. And so by the time I had that showcase a month out, I actually had all these other showcases lined up, and the next thing I knew I was, I was in it. I was deep in it. And, and the, the, it really just transformed. And then I, I was like, this is a lot of fun. I'm not gonna stop. And so I just kept doing it. And then years passed and then more opportunities arose, and then I started doing commercials. And that, you know, it turned into this whole other world. But it really originated for me wanting to face this small fear and just like seeing what would happen. I hope, Speaker 2: I hope my listeners are listening to this because, you know, one of the things that I, that I say probably, I mean too many, too many times, is it doesn't matter where you go, it matters that you go, oh Speaker 3: Yes. Speaker 2: It sounds like you just said this is a fear of mine. I wanna confront it. You didn't have plans necessarily to become, you know, a standup comedian, but you just went where, you know, you went, you went in intersection and three minutes Speaker 3: . Yes. And those three minutes literally changed my life. Yeah. And, you know, over the years, my relationship with fear has evolved. You know, it's, it's only years later that I realized, you know, when we experienced fear, and I'm not talking about the, the, the real fear. Like, if there's a tiger about to mall you or you know, a car gonna hit you or something like that, forget about that sort of fear, like actual real fear, but just sort of the existential fear that everyday fear to me. Now, when I experienced that in relation to a specific situation, I actually view that as a sign that I'm getting close to some area of transformation. Fear is a sign that you probably are doing something right. Speaker 2: It's a flare from your unconscious mind going, pay attention, pay attention, Speaker 3: Pay attention. Yeah. And so now when I experience fear, my relationship with it is such that I'm like, oh, it seems like this might be an opportunity for transformation. Speaker 2: I Just love your story.. Speaker 3: Oh, thank you. Speaker 2: What's the next? Speaker 3: You know, yeah. So there's a coup, there's a couple of things in the pipeline. I mean I, I just wanna name to, to piggyback off of what you're saying, you know, again, when I first started doing standup, I never thought it would pivot to doing more social justice activism about better treatment for physicians treat. I never thought it would lead to educating the general public about complex medical issues in the form of a podcast that mixes comedy and medicine. You know standup really are, is kind of the trunk of the tree, but the branches led to other things. And for that, I'm very grateful. And so at this point, you know the, the podcast is taking up quite a bit of time. And we do have, it does butt Speaker 3: it's a lot of work. It's a lot of work. And like I said earlier, I am working on a show with parody songs and singing. So I love that you sing because singing has, has also been, it's another way of performing that really uses your whole body. And so I, I'm working on that as well. And then a couple of other projects that I can't really talk about yet, but I, I'm excited to release soon. Speaker 2:Oh, that's nice. Well, again, we'll have the link to your podcast, but say it one, because I'll probably crucify again. So , Speaker 3: It's, it's HypochondriActor episodes are released every Wednesday on all of the channels Spotify, iTunes audible, you name it. Speaker 2:Yeah. Okay. And way any other ways people can reach out to you. Yeah, Speaker 3: Sure. You know, I'm available on social media, Instagram. You can find me at Wali Priyanka. That's w a l i, Priyanka, P R I Y Y A N K A. Speaker 2: Okay. Well, I, I, like I said, I was up about five 30 this morning and I started, you know, and you made me laugh and you made me laugh hard. Speaker 3: Oh, good. . Speaker 2:That was really a fun way to start my morning. And I have loved our conversation. Likewise. Speaker 2: If You ever wanna have a mental health professional on, just keep me in mind, Speaker 3: . Yeah. Yeah. I'd love to stay in touch. Well, Speaker 2: It's lovely to meet you. Likewise. Speaker 3: Bye. Dr. Margaret Outro I hope you enjoyed that. I could not have been more pleased that Priyanka wanted to be on the episode. In fact, we had quite a bit of schedules and reschedules and reschedules before we could get things planned. I really enjoyed talking with her. I hope I get to meet her in LA one time when I go out to see my son. As of this recording, my TEDx has now had 112,000 views. Please go listen to it or watch it and like it if you do, I'm falling a little short on likes, 'cause I really want those to show that people are agreeing with the idea that we don't have to keep secrets. That we can be transparent even about things that are very, very hard to talk about. I hope that's what SelfWork is showing you, that I and other people can talk about things like depression, anxiety, sexual abuse, anything that happens to you with clarity so that we can act as beacons for each other. So just go to YouTube, TEDx Dr. Margaret Rutherford, and it'll be there. You could watch it, listen to it, and if you do like it or even comment, that's even better. Thanks for being here, guys. It's always a pleasure. Take very good care of yourself, your family, and your community. I'm Margaret, and this has been.  

During my research on last week's episode on post partum, I learned that my own state of Arkansas holds the #1 spot in the US for maternal mortality rates. I'm interviewing Dr. Zenobia Harris today, whose accolades in this field are numerous to try to understand what's not happening in Arkansas that needs to happen - and what states are doing it right and how. Dr. Harris heads up the Arkansas Birthing Project, and is an incredible force and national advocate for health equity and for improvements to family, child, and maternal health. The program as well as the national organization Every Mother Counts is reaching out to minority women and their families, who are much more likely to suffer severe medical problems both during and after pregnancy. Thanks as always to MagBreakthrough for their sponsorship of this episode! Advertisers' Link: We welcome back BiOptimizers and Magnesium Breakthrough as a returning sponsor to SelfWork and they have a new offer! Just click here! Make sure you use the code "selfwork10" to check out free product!   Vital Links: Birthing Project USA Dr. Krystal Caschetta as a victim of severe post partum depression You can hear more about this and many other topics by listening to my podcast, SelfWork with Dr. Margaret Rutherford. Subscribe to my website and receive my weekly newsletter including a blog post and podcast! If you'd like to join my FaceBook closed group, then click here and answer the membership questions! Welcome!   My book entitled Perfectly Hidden Depression is available here! Its message is specifically for those with a struggle with strong perfectionism which acts to mask underlying emotional pain. But the many self-help techniques described can be used by everyone who chooses to begin to address emotions long hidden away that are clouding and sabotaging your current life. And it's available in paperback, eBook or as an audiobook! And there's another way to send me a message! You can record by clicking below and ask your question or make a comment. You'll have 90 seconds to do so and that time goes quickly. By recording, you're giving SelfWork (and me) permission to use your voice on the podcast. I'll look forward to hearing from you! Episode Transcript This is SelfWork. And I'm Dr. Margaret Rutherford. At SelfWork, we'll discuss psychological and emotional issues common in today's world and what to do about them. I'm Dr. Margaret, and SelfWork is a podcast dedicated to you taking just a few minutes today for your own selfwork. Speaker 2: Dr. Margaret Hello and welcome or welcome back to SelfWork. I'm Dr. Margaret Rutherford, and I'm so glad you're here. This week, we had another reminder of the seriousness of post partum depression - or the potentially fatal mixture of new motherhood and suicide. Dr. Krystal Caschetta, an oncologist, is reported to have killed her 4 month-old daughter and then killed herself in New York.  Current evidence seems to support that she was suffering from the most severe type of post partum, or what's called post partum psychosis, where the new mother is besieged with delusions or hallucinations that can govern her behavior and lead to violence against her baby and her self. It's another set of gruesome tragedies that demands our attention because these deaths can be prevented with the right care and understanding. I'm sure there will be more to report. And our hearts go out to that family and others who've experienced such a harsh reminder of the mental and emotional toll pregnancy can take. During my research on last week's episode on post partum, I learned that my own state of Arkansas holds the #1 spot in the US for maternal mortality rates. I'm interviewing Dr. Zenobia Harris today, whose accolades in this field are numerous. She heads up the Arkansas Birthing Project, and is an incredible force and national advocate for health equity and for improvements to family, child, and maternal health. The program as well as the national organization Every Mother Counts is reaching out to minority women and their families, who are much more likely to suffer severe medical problems both during and after pregnancy. What's amazing is that those statistics can be reversed with support for that mom during pregnancy - provided by who Dr. Harris calls "sister friends."  Here on SelfWork, we talk about what you can do about it. Dr. Harris is doing just that and creating a network of sister friends that are saving lives- and we want to support that mission here at SelfWork! We want to welcome back Magnesium Breakthrough as a sponsor of SelfWork once again! In fact, Mag Breakthrough helped me avoid a side effect of another medication I needed to take for a few days simply by helping my colon function better. I love this product! Commercial for MagBreakThrough Hey guys, I wanna share with you that recently I've been working on some very important projects that have very short deadlines, as always, right? Seems everything today is ASAP. Anyway, I have not been able to keep up with all of my self-care routine. I certainly haven't had breaks to have proper meals, and I'm drinking way too much ice tea. I was starting to get really stressed out when I remembered that the magnesium breakthrough I take every night is also a great support for stress management, and I'd kind of forgotten that. In fact, magnesium is responsible for over 300 body reactions, and Magnesium Breakthrough is the only magnesium formula that delivers all seven different forms of magnesium. I didn't know there were seven forms, one of them being feeling more calm, centered, and in control of our stress. If you are trying to balance life demands, give it a try. Trust me, your mind and your body will thank you for it. What you can do is visit Magbreakthrough.com/ selfwork and order now. Oh, in addition to the discount you get by using promo code selfwork10. So that's different selfwork10. They're also amazing gifts with purchase. That's why I love shopping it BiOptimizers.. Again, go to mag breakthrough.com/self work to get your magnesium breakthrough and find out this month's gift with purchase. Speaker 2: So now I'd like to introduce you to Dr. Zenobia Harris, head of the Arkansas Birthing Project, and a highly respected advocate for improving the care and support that all mothers receive, but especially moms of color who are the most at risk. Speaker 3: Dr. Harris The Arkansas Birthing Project is located in the main office is in Little Rock, but we do have birthing projects in various counties around Arkansas and primarily in southeast Arkansas. We primarily work with African American women and women of color. Yes. Speaker 2: So, but tell me about how long have you been the head of the birthing project and what do y'all do and talk about some maternal mortality issues. Speaker 3: Well, the Arkansas Birthing Project is an affiliate of Birthing Project, USA, which is a 40 year old black maternal and child health organization that originally formed in California Uhhuh , but it was founded by a woman from Arkansas. Really? Her name is Catherine Trujillo, and she was from Moscow, Arkansas. Yeah. But she was actually working for the California Department of Health and Human Services and was spending a huge amount of money as a fiscal agent on preterm Babies Care. Okay. And so she decided to do, conduct a social experiment with several of her friends. They decided to provide support to pregnant women during their pregnancy. There were, were 10 of them, and they each got a mentee, a little pregnant woman who they provided material and physical supports to during pregnancy and social supports, and they were astounded by the outcomes. Speaker 3: Traditionally statistically, the young women that they partnered with should have had really poor outcomes, and they didn't. The babies were born close to term or on term, the baby's weighed more than 5, 6, 5 and a half pounds at birth. Wow. they had a non-eventful delivery, and they did quite well after birth. And so they replicated this in that community several times and ended up at one, at, at later time, actually establishing a health clinic in a really at-risk community in the Sacramento area. And this kind of just sort of spread through informal networks. The, the idea of doing this well I, I saw Catherine when she came to Arkansas about, oh, about 10 years after she had founded the birthing project. She did a, a program for the March of Dimes, and I was mesmerized by the work she was doing. And so I became involved with the birthing project at that time. Yeah. And have been, had been working on it part-time until I actually retired from my work as a administrator with the Arkansas Department of Health and have been doing the birthing project full-time now in Arkansas since 2016. Speaker 2: I should add, you have your doctorate in nurse practitioner, Speaker 3: But we what we do is we go into local communities and train community women to provide support to women during their pregnancy. Speaker 2: What did those in initial mentors do? Or what is that? What does that support look like? Speaker 3: Well we primarily focus, of course, on social supports because many of the women that we interact with are women who identify as people who fall through the cracks. Perhaps they don't have a, a permanent place to live, or they have food insecurity, or they don't, they're not seeking prenatal care for various reasons because they don't know how to access it or they don't know have transportation, all those kinds of issues. Speaker 2: Too Expensive. They don't have insurance. Yeah, exactly. Speaker 3: Exactly. And some of them don't have family members to support them. They don't have close, you know people in their lives that will provide that support during this really special time in their lives. And so, our sister friends who are our mentors, we encourage them to become really familiar with the resources in their local communities. Okay. And to work with their little sisters to access those resources that she needs to have a good outcome. Okay. We require that the sister friends work with the little sisters to make sure they get a source of prenatal care and that they keep their prenatal appointments. If they have need transportation, help them work on identifying that we encourage our sister friends not to make your little sister dependent on you, but to encourage her to be independent. Speaker 2: That's an important point, isn't it? Wow. Yes. Speaker 3: Yes. Speaker 2: So what about postnatal care? Because I mean, you know, last week I did this episode on postpartum depression and found out that suicide and drug overdose is accounts for about 25% of the mortality deaths. Is that right? The maternal deaths? Is that correct? Speaker 3: Maternal? Yes, that's correct. Mental health related issues certainly have a huge impact. And unfortunately, some physical health issues also impact our maternal mortality issues such as undiagnosed health conditions such as diabetes, right. Cardiac disease, hypertension, which can lead to eclampsia, preeclampsia, and eclampsia, and which can be very fatal. And unfortunately for many African American women it is, Speaker 2: I'm so sorry. And the, the couple of articles, 84% of those deaths were preventable. Speaker 3: Yes. That is a, that is a huge tragedy for our communities. Huge, huge, huge tragedy and a huge loss of potential of human potential that could you know, be at work in these communities helping to improve the status of our communities. So it's a, it's a huge loss that we experience when these things happen. Speaker 2: Yes, it is. And as well as the children they bore, you know, so Yes. Speaker 3: Right. And unfortunately, sometimes we lose the babies as well. You know, we have the fourth highest infant mortality rate in the United States as well. Speaker 2: Do we really,? Speaker 3: Arkansas. Speaker 2: Wow. Speaker 2: Which are the states that are doing it better? What are the states that are doing it better and, and how are they doing it better? Speaker 3: Well as you, you may or may not be aware many states, over 30 of our states in the United States have extended the coverage for Medicaid for women postpartum. You know, in Arkansas, their postpartum coverage cuts off for women who are Medicaid eligible after the second, after two months after delivery. Oh my goodness. Well, many states - about 30 states - have extended that coverage for the first year of life because these deaths can often occur during the postpartum period. Many of them occur during the postpartum period when women don't have coverage. And what we, what they have found is that women will put off going to the doctor because they don't have money to pay for their care. And so they put off their symptoms and they'll deny their symptoms or delay, you know, seeking care until it's unfortunately too late. Speaker 2: What do you know for the mental health aspect of things? Speaker 3: Well, I think we, we do have a real acute shortage of mental health providers in our state, as you probably are very well aware mm-hmm. , and there's some parts of our state that are worse than others. And so dealing with that, in addition to some of the stigma that is associated with seeking psychological care and support is something that we've got to address as a society. Speaker 2: Now, if I read some of the articles disagreed with one another about this, so let me ask you... I read in one article that the mental health problems, suicide and drug overdose were more prevalent in minority women than white women. And then another article, it said, no, they're about the same. Speaker 3: They're about the same. Okay. In my experience. Okay. Speaker 2: Okay. Yes. Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah. You know, we have the first trimester, second trimester, third trimester is, you know, when during the time the baby is born. Sure. And then, of course, that fourth trimester, which is the period, the immediate period after birth, actually that first year after birth of the baby. I think something that we need to make some distinctions about, or what we call baby blues. Have you heard that terminology, baby blues? Speaker 2: Oh, yes, of course. Speaker 3: Have, mm-hmm. versus postpartum depression. And I think sometimes people get those things confused. In the baby blues, you know, a little bit of melancholy and uncertainty and perhaps a little depression after birth because of all this tremendous hormonal and body changes that are occurring. If it lasts longer than two weeks, then we're really talking about postpartum depression. Speaker 2: And speaking of that, there is a, a, a medication that has just been FDA approved for postpartum depression, specifically for postpartum depression. Now I'm real excited about that. But, you know, my, my podcast goes well, I have listeners from all over the world, but certainly all over the United States. What, what could a woman do or, or a friend of someone who's pregnant? What are all these, is it called the Tennessee Birthing Project? Is it called the Mississippi Birthing Project? What, what are the, or the California, whatever it is, how can people plug themselves in or plug people in that they, that they know and love into these kinds of programs? Speaker 3: Well, the birthing project is just one of many opportunities I think we have available in our local communities to provide support to women during this really critical time. You know, there's been a lot of discussion about community doulas as well, and the supports that they provide. Yes. And I think there's room for everyone. The birthing project specifically, we identify people who are lay people. They don't necessarily have to be trained medical people, and they don't necessarily have to have any kind of certification, but we work with them and support them so that they can in turn, feel free and empowered to support a, an individual person basically like becoming a, a good friend of that person. Okay. A reliable and trustworthy friend. And Birthing Project USA, which is based out of Albuquerque, New Mexico is sort of the hub where people go to get information to establish birthing projects in other states. There are even some international birthing projects in Cuba in Ghana and other foreign nations. Speaker 2: Can you tell the audience what, what a doula is? Speaker 3: Well, a doula is an individual who is specially trained and experienced to provide to women at doing support during very critical times, either during their pregnancy, during labor and delivery postpartum. And there are even some some bereavement doulas who actually provide specialized support to real, recognize important needs that women and their families have as well. Mm-Hmm. , and to provide those supports to them to make sure that they have good pregnancy outcomes. So they are right there with women in the delivery area. They're that other voice in that other set of eyes and hands in that area and space that women need often when they're going through this real critical period, because as you know, it's very stressful and often, sometimes decisions have to be made pretty quickly, and it is good to have someone there who is very focused on the needs and the desires of the woman involved Right. During this real critical period. Speaker 2: Right. So if people wanted to either volunteer or donate, they could go to the Birthing Project, USA Speaker 3: Or the Arkansas Birthing Project if they're in Arkansas. Speaker 2: Sure, sure, sure. Mm-Hmm. . Well, yeah. Most, a lot of my listeners are New Yorkers and California people. So Speaker 3: Birthing Project USA. it's listed they do have a web, there's a website Birthing Project USA, and we'd be happy, they can indicate that they're interested in more information, and we'd be happy to get in touch with them. Arkansas has been asked to do some of the training for Birthing Project U S A because they appreciate the model that we have in our state. We're the only state that has multiple birthing projects in different counties compared to some of the other, you may have just one birthing project in one particular area in their state. Speaker 2: I have a sneaking suspicion that's about you, Speaker 3: . Well, I'm, I'm very passionate about this work. I'm very committed to it. And I just want to make sure that our next generation is prepared to provide supports that women need during this really important time in our lives. We're building our communities and we want to make sure that we get the full benefit of every person, the full humanity of every person in our communities safely delivered into this in our communities, and safely ensconced in our communities empowered to achieve the goals that God has set before them so that they can be full functioning citizens in our society. Speaker 2: I, I couldn't, well, very well said and eloquently said, by the way, so I'm so glad you could come on. And I hope to, again, it's Birthing Project USA or in if you live in Arkansas, it's the Arkansas Birthing Project. This is Dr. Zenobia Harris, and I'm delighted, absolutely delighted that you've joined me today. Thank you so very much, Speaker 3: Dr. Margaret. Can I do one more plug You regarding Every Mother Counts. Every Mother Counts has been very generous working with us. They actually have produced a film called Giving Birth in America, Arkansas. Oh. And we are encouraging people to access that film. It can be accessed on Every Mother Counts website to schedule viewings of the, of the film. And if you are interested in having a discussion groups set aside, we can certainly arrange that for you too, because we want people to talk about this very important issue of maternal mortality in our state and come together on solutions for this very important issue. Speaker 2: What is the name of it again? Because I will put it in the show notes. Speaker 3: Giving Birth in America, Arkansas, and it's on the Every Mother Counts website. Speaker 2: Okay. I got it. Speaker 3: Thank you. And thank you to Every Mother Counts too, for their support. Speaker 2: Yeah. They seem like an incredible organization. Speaker 3: Well, thank you so much, Dr. Margaret. Speaker 2: Of course. Of course. Anytime. Speaker 3: All right, let's stay in touch. I'm sure you were as impressed with Dr. Harris as I am and was. Please reach out to her and all the organizations. Most states are gonna have some sort of support group like this as well as Every Mother Counts. That's a national organization, and I bet there are others. I know that not everyone who listens to SelfWork is from the United States, so please look around for help that you might need and benefit from. As usual, thank you for being here. It's an exciting week. My TED Talk has reached a hundred thousand views and many of you are probably those who have viewed it. So I want to thank you very much. We've got a lot of plans for the fall, and I can't wait to begin to introduce them to you. Thank you. Thank you for being here. Please take care of yourself, your family, and your community. I'm Dr. Margaret, and this has been self work. .    

I wanted to offer you the advice and very creative teachings today of Becky Blades – she founded and sold an award-winning communications firm, she's basically run from the board room to the home room, she's an artist herself, and she's an inspiring and highly creative author of two books; Her first book, Do Your Laundry or You'll Die Alone, Advice Your Mom Would Give if She Thought You Were Listening, which she wrote and illustrated, was named a Best Books of 2014 and one of the Top 100 Indie Releases by Kirkus Reviews. It received the prestigious Kirkus Starred Review and was an Amazon best seller for six consecutive years. Now she's written another wonderfully illustrated book (her own drawings and illustrations) entitled Start More Than You Can Finish. And I wanted it to be a real fresh-er-up-er for those of you wilting in the heat of the summer or fending off one more winter storm – dependent on your hemisphere. And the Next Big Idea Club  has selected it as one of  “the most essential nonfiction books of the year." She calls herself a bad cook, a hopeful gardener, a passionate tree hugger and a licensed private pilot – and I'm delighted not only to have her on SelfWork...  but to call her a friend. Advertisers Link:  Have you been putting off getting help? BetterHelp, the #1 online therapy provider, has a special offer for you now! Vital Links: My TEDx talk that today has earned 72,000 views! You can hear more about this and many other topics by listening to my podcast, The Selfwork Podcast.  Subscribe to my website and receive my weekly newsletter including a blog post and podcast! If you'd like to join my FaceBook closed group, then click here and answer the membership questions! Welcome! My book entitled Perfectly Hidden Depression is available here! Its message is specifically for those with a struggle with strong perfectionism which acts to mask underlying emotional pain. But the many self-help techniques described can be used by everyone who chooses to begin to address emotions long hidden away that are clouding and sabotaging your current life. And it's available in paperback, eBook or as an audiobook! And there's another way to send me a message! You can record by clicking below and ask your question or make a comment. You'll have 90 seconds to do so and that time goes quickly. By recording, you're giving SelfWork (and me) permission to use your voice on the podcast. I'll look forward to hearing from you! Episode Transcript This is SelfWork. And I'm Dr. Margaret Rutherford At SelfWork. We'll discuss psychological and emotional issues common in today's world and what to do about them. I'm Dr. Margaret and SelfWork is a podcast dedicated to you, taking just a few minutes today for your own selfwork. Speaker 2: Hello and welcome or welcome back to SelfWork. I'm Dr. Margaret Rutherford, and I'm so excited about bringing you a friend of mine and someone that I truly, truly admire. Becky Blades. I wanted to offer you the advice and very creative teachings of Becky today. Not only has she founded and sold an award-winning communications firm, she's basically run from the boardroom to the homeroom. She's an artist herself, and she's an inspiring and highly creative author of two books. Now, the first one was, do Your Laundry or You'll Die Alone, subtitle being Advice Your Mom Would Give If She Thought You Were Listing. She not only wrote and illustrated that book, it was named a Best book of 2014 and one of the Top 100 Indie Releases by Kirkus Reviews. And it received the prestigious Kirkus starred Review and was an Amazon bestseller for six consecutive years. Speaker 2: That is a long time. Now, she's written another wonderfully illustrated book. Again, her own drawings and illustrations entitled Start More Than You Can Finish. And I thoroughly enjoyed it. I wanted it to be a real fresher upper for those of you who are wilting in this heat of the summer, or if you're in another hemisphere, fending off one more winter storm. Her point in this book is that we can get so afraid of failing, we don't start and starting is so important. In fact, she advocates being a startist. And this book also has high praise. It's been named a Must Read by the Next Big Idea Club, which by the way, the members of that club are Malcolm Gladwell, Adam Grant, Susan Kane, and Daniel Pink, not bad company. And they call it one of the most essential non-fiction books of the year. It is truly inspiring. Speaker 2: She calls herself a bad cook, a hopeful gardener, a passionate tree hugger, and a licensed private pilot. And I'm delighted not only to have her on SelfWork, but I'm lucky enough, like I said, to call her a friend. Before we hear Becky's interview, let's hear from BetterHelp. So many people start or go back to therapy when their kids are starting school. And that's not too long from now. So everyone's starting something new. I'd recommend calling very early for a therapist in your locale, but with better help. You don't have to worry about that. They're ready to see you when you are ready to be seen. Speaker 2: I recently heard a fascinating reframe for the idea of asking for help. Maybe you view asking for help as something someone does who's falling apart or who isn't strong. So consider this. What if asking for help means that you won't let anything get in your way of solving an issue, finding out an answer or discovering a better direction? Asking for help is much more about your determination to recognize what needs your attention or what is getting in your way of having the life you want better help. The number one online therapy provider makes reaching out about as easy as it can get. Within 48 hours, you'll have a professional licensed therapist with whom you can text, email, or talk with to guide you. And you're not having to comb through therapist websites or drive to appointments. It's convenient, inexpensive, and readily available. Now you can find a therapist that fits your needs with better help. And if you use the code or link Betterhelp.com/self work, you get 10% off your first month of sessions. So just do it. You'll be glad you did. That. Link again is better help.com/selfwork to get 10% off your first month of surfaces. Speaker 2: And now I'm delighted, absolutely delighted to introduce you if you don't already know her. To Becky Blades. I was trying to remember when you and I met, was it at a midlife bloggers Speaker 3: Associated? It was at, it was at BlogHer that in San Jose. Speaker 2: That's right. Yeah, that's right. Speaker 3: And it was my first one. Do did you go to a lot of those? No, Speaker 2: I think I went to two. I went to the one there. I went to one in Chicago, I think, and then I went to that one I didn't go to anymore. Speaker 3: And who invited me were Mary Speaker 2: Mary Dell Harrington, and Mary Speaker 3: Darrell Harrington and Lisa Heffernan. And I had just put out that first book. And I, you know, gosh, I am, I'm, you know, everybody I met there was so nice. And I just have still loved maintaining those relationships. Speaker 2: Listen, I was so glad that I took the time to read all of your book because I just laughed and I smiled and I teared up a couple of times and you had me from the very beginning. Your artwork is just incredible. A line is a dot that wasn't, this is what you say, a line is a dot that wasn't afraid to get started. I mean, that's like, Speaker 3: I loved that. Yeah. And a dot can be a splatter. I mean, dots don't need to be neat, perfect little dots. They can be little cuddles. Speaker 2: I didn't remember that until it, then I refreshed my memory and I wrote it that you are also, you're an author, but you're an an artist and you're, you're, you really love combining those things. And can you, why don't you tell SelfWork listeners a little bit about you? Speaker 3: Okay. Yeah. I had a career in public relations, which came out of a degree in journalism. And so I've always liked writing. I didn't like being poor. So journalism wasn't, you know, the job that I wanted out out of school. I grew up poor. So I, I chose to find a way to make money in an, the agency business, the journalism public relations agency business. There were a lot of opportunities for creativity. So I started my own firm in when I was 30. Wow. And ran that for 13 years. And then when I, kind of parenting was at a, at a pitch that I wanted to be home and in, in my creative space at home more too, sold the business and started building what what we now call a portfolio lifestyle. So I had the business oh, I like Speaker 2: That name. I've never heard this Speaker 3: . Yeah. And, and, and then I had the, I had an art studio and I remember  - to kind of jump over to this book  - when I one time my soon after I sold the business, my daughters were talking, they came home from school and they wanted it an identity for me. 'Cause you know, kids talk what your mother do, you know, what does your mom do? So my youngest said, "Mom, what are you, are you an artist? Are you a business person?" And I said, "Honey, why do those labels matter?" And her sister from the other room said, "She's a startist" . 'cause I was starting some other businesses and you know, they got confused by how I dress different days. So, so during that time, I, I went through my first and second midlife crisis. First that empty nest crisis that, you know, and have been such a great expert on my first book was do Your Laundry or You'll Die Alone. Speaker 3: And that was the subject line of the email I sent my daughter of all these journal entries with advice that I was kind of afraid to give her in person. So after she left for college, I sent it all to her. And, and then, you know, after that, I'm, I, I don't mind saying I'm 64 now. And those, these past 10 years of being kind of all, you know, almost the entire time empty, nested has given me the chance to really see how what I love and what I, who I love spending time with. And I've realized it's, it's people like you who when they think they wanna do a podcast, they'll just haul off and start it, or people have ideas and act on them. So Speaker 2: No, and the, the name of this book is Start More Than You Can Finish. And, and I so agreed with it. I, one of the things that I say to patients all the time is, it doesn't matter where you go, it's that you go Exactly. Just go, just make a choice. Just go. And I, I was just humming along with your book Thinking , I agree. . Speaker 3: And it's been fun to think about the mental health aspects, of course, you know, to, to make the case for something that seems as contrarian as this notion of start more than you can finish, you know, kind of in defiance of what our parents may have said. But the mental health aspects of creativity, we're learning more and more as you know about how creativity makes us flourish and thrive and, and the and then we have other things we can talk about, anxiety, depression as I studied the neuroscience of it, I, I decided, you know, I discovered hidden benefits that I didn't know I had been partaking in. Speaker 2: Wow. What are those? Speaker 3: Well, starting with self-discovery, self-esteem, getting out of anxiety and depression. I'll, I'll tell you a story that I haven't, it didn't make it in the book and I haven't told many people because it seems like kind of a downer, and we wanted the book to be upbeat. But part of my catalyst for writing the book was I was taking art lessons to domestic violence shelters. I did this for a few years. I, I didn't call it art therapy. Now they did because mm-hmm. All art is therapy, but I'm not a, I'm not a licensed therapist. Mm-Hmm. or an art therapist. But what I discovered in my time with those amazing women is that the thing that, that spectrum of creativity, I used to think it was started with, oh, oh, I'm not creative, and ended with, oh, I can start anything on a dime. Speaker 3: Well, the spectrum really starts way over in a place where we feel totally powerless. Totally. devoid of even knowing what we like. Right. What gives us joy, what our idea of beauty is, and our inability to make a decision. So this book is about starting, it's taking that first step, like you said, it's not where you go, it's that you go. And the example is, in the very first class, these women, all of them could not even make that first initial decision. I, I would kind of lay out a little project, very simple. I had all these enticing art supplies, but they literally needed my permission to choose a color. Like, what should I start with purple? Yes. Purple would be a great place to start. They had lost, I mean, they had literally had mm-hmm. the creativity beaten out of them because creativity is, it's trusting our own ideas and owning them, and then also having the, the courage to experiment and say, okay, you know, what? If purple doesn't work well, when we're terrified, when we're traumatized, when we're stuck, I don't think we have the courage to know that the stakes aren't that high. You know, if I choose color, if I choose purple and I don't like it, I can paint over it. Sure, of course. Or as I said, I'll give you another piece of paper . Speaker 2: That's a great point. It's that shutting down of, of risk of any, even, even how what, even no matter how tiny the risk, or seemingly tiny, it's not seemingly, it's not tiny to them. It's like, oh, right. I'm gonna make a choice and it's gonna be out here for other people to see. And yeah, it's right. But, you know, I, and you may Speaker 3: Not know, you know, I think when we're beaten down, we don't know what the risks are. There's this free floating sense of, I'm taking a chance, I'm doing something I haven't didn't do yesterday. So what might happen, because, you know, life doesn't treat us rationally. And for those women who had been, you know, abused, they, they had been abused for much less things than making a wrong color decision. Right. So the healing so to, you know, get back to your first big question was the, the ancillary benefits of acting on our ideas and following that creative process are things we don't even know we need, I think. And, and yet I could really see it dramatically with those, those women who, and this was another really fun thing, is that they came out of that so fast, so joyfully really, that just a few weeks, you know, just, you just give that affirmation that Yeah, purple would be great, and that looks great, and you know what, this other color might work too. And then they start with the self, with their own self-talk. And I mean, they just, those, those stays and those shelters aren't that long. So I only got to see 'em for a short period of time, but it was, it was fast and miraculous. Speaker 2: That's incredible. You know, I got my start in this business by volunteering at a domestic shelter. Oh. Speaker 3: So you get it. Speaker 2: Love so much so, so, so much. Anyway. Mm-hmm. , you know, I, I'm gonna quote you again. It's not that finishing isn't vital and great, but not finishing is not failure. And I, I love that because you know, how many times have I heard the phrase, well, that didn't work out like, that says something bad about me. I mean, you asked in the book to, to make a list of, you know, the things we've started and didn't finish. And to make, I mean, my first two marriages came to mind immediately, Speaker 3: , Speaker 2: I finished them, but Speaker 2: Not in, not in the way that I thought I was going to. And, and I mean, I carried those around with such shame for so long mm-hmm. that that wasn't okay. And and it's not ideal, perhaps, but it, you know, I learned something along the way. And then, but I, I love the fact that in the book, you also take time to say, all right, stop reading or, you know, whatever. And, and let's apply this. Let's, what can you do? Mm-Hmm. , what can you do with, with your, and you have four stages, you imagine, think, decide, and act. Which, you know, I, I think when people, a lot of people hear the word well, just imagine, just imagine mm-hmm. mm-hmm. , that feels like real shaky ground to just imagine. Mm. Speaker 3: Mm-Hmm. Mm-Hmm. mm-hmm. . And if we imagine and some people are really good at that part mm-hmm. , but some people, that is the toughest part because they imagine very small. They only imagine with the reality that they can touch and hold Right. Then. some people are great imagining and they imagine backwards, you know, they only pull from what they've already been able to do. So what, what I do with those four steps was research and find out how to do them better to, to start better and start more. So imagining it really comes down to imagining more and bigger the, the more we noodle and think about how things might be a future reality, which we're all gonna have, you know, we're gonna have a future anyway. Yeah. Speaker 2: Speaker 3: . So why not imagine it in all the, and it's all, its glorious colors and possibilities. Speaker 2: You know, I'm, I'm thinking about your work on Dreams with Start. I love that book. That, that's a great word. You, you, you should thank your daughter , because it says to write down your dreams, but then you very quickly said, but I don't have enough something. I don't have enough. Mm-Hmm. time. I don't have enough money, I don't have enough talent. I don't how whatever it is that you convince yourself to, to stop dreaming. Speaker 3: Exactly. It's, it's the, the answer to the question. The answer to the question. Why haven't you started that thing? And I asked actual people, art students of mine create very creative people after they told me something they wanted to do, I asked them why they hadn't started. And the answer was always, I don't have enough blank. They, they would word the answer many different ways. Sure. It could be confidence, like, I don't think I can do it. You don't have enough confidence. Right. enough permission, enough validation, you know, space and permission could be just from your family to think that you could take the time away for yourself. Mm-Hmm. to do that. I call that enough permission. You know, and, and obviously money and time are the big ones. Sure. Speaker 3: But we do have enough to start those things. That was the big learning. I think the big aha in the research was if you've started anything, like you probably didn't know that you'd be doing a podcast for this long pss I can, I've decided I can never do a podcast. I . So respect the ability to all the skills that come into this. But when you started your first one a start only thinks, thinks mostly about how I will start it, how I will do the first step. Yeah. And that is the healthy way. If you think your finish, if your finish was to get it produced and get it picked up by a big syndicate, you would not think you had enough of whatever to do that. And Speaker 2: I was determined to do at least eight podcasts because I was told in my class that that was the average number of podcasts that people do before they finish before they start Speaker 3: Really? Eight. Eight. Wow. Speaker 2: Eight. And so when I got to nine, I thought, oh, why ? Speaker 3: See, there you go. And what if you hadn't known those numbers? That's fascinating. Yeah. Speaker 2: Yeah. So I I just, the support you give in the book and the humor and the asking people to look at themselves, I you know, you, you sort of break down these four parts, the imagine, think, decide, and act, and you you said, thinking brings ideas to life, not overthinking. What do you mean by that? Speaker 3: Not overthinking? Well, you may be familiar with, you know, all the research that mm-hmm. says that when we, that we are programmed, how would you state it? That we are, we are engineered for security as, as species, we're engineered for survival. So there's an, a natural avoidance to risk, which is healthy. Mm-Hmm. . So if we let ourselves to think, think too long, so we go to that imagining place and we're very successful and imagine something wonderful, then the next step is we think about it. We think about how that future state looks into reality. How would we do it? Where would we start? How long will it take? Who do I need to, you know, kinda warn about this? Sure. In that it is that process where we talk ourselves out of it, and we really do a number on ourselves be, and the more perfectionist a person is, the better or worse they, they do that part. So I, you know, I say imagine more, think less. Because the truth is that even if you plan, if you're thinking involves this elaborate detailed plan, the minute you start something, that plan changes. I, Speaker 2: I wrote that reality, Speaker 3: Circled it. Reality is a big old truth pill. And we cannot, we cannot predict it. Speaker 2: Mm-Hmm. No, we cannot. So like I have that in red, circled in red plans change as soon as you start. And you also talked, there was a section that I, I maybe 'cause of my theater experience, but you talked about how they're tenets of improv improvisation that are really important for start. Mm-Hmm. and I, I've done a little bit of improvisation, and it is, it's not easy . 'cause One of these things that you brought up, you, you know, you have to just say yes and yes. And it's a rule of agreement. And then you Oh, don't tell. There are no mistakes. And you stay in the moment, like you said it, it's like somebody can just start, an audience member will say, okay, we're gonna talk about diaries and cowboys. Speaker 3: Yeah. Speaker 2: Somebody has to start something about a diary and a cowboy. And it may not make any sense. It is like, you have no idea where they're going, but you, you, you say something and you bring along. And then, oh, and then there was a, there was another cowboy, but he had a black horse, but he wanted a white. I mean, it's just, it's, it's, yeah. Then the story evolves. And so it's, I I loved that. Maybe, I don't know, is it an analogy, a metaphor that this Speaker 3: Yeah. Speaker 2: Creation is like improv. Speaker 3: And you know, the best quote I heard in my interviews with those people is it's about what we do, but mostly it's about what we do with what we did. So that first step, again, the stakes are reduced. You just gotta do something. It's throwing the mud on the wall. It's on an improv stage. There are like five actors, somebody has to say the first thing mm-hmm. , that takes courage. But really the hardest job is the person that says the second thing. Sure. . Or maybe it's easiest because then you have something to respond to. So we need to give ourselves something to respond to, to really flesh out our ideas. And I mean, I also learned that all kind of comedy really works like that because, you know, finding out what makes other people laugh is an exploration. You think, oh, this might make me laugh, but you don't know. 'cause You're hearing it on your, in your own head. So Exactly. My husband's taken to doing open mic nights. And Speaker 2: That's brave. That, Speaker 3: That is brave. It's also brave to be in the audience of those because it's, it's usually young men who who have, have lost their mothers laughing at them. So they're, you know, they don't know what's funny, but they're willing to, at, at late night climb on a stage and tell jokes and for taste. But what happens is that's how, that's how comedy's worked out. And even the, even the best joke writers, you know, go on stage over and over again before they will go lifetime Yeah. And tweak this and try that and shorten this. And, and that's, you know, that is the creative process. It's iterative, it's exploratory, it's curiosity. And I mean, I think mental health wise, I too believe when you, when you, when I am mentally healthy, I am my most curious Exactly. When we're shut down, we're, we're not curious. Speaker 2: But it's also an external energy. It's, it's going energy from internal traveling externally. When you're curious because you are either, whether it's how you make a good glass of iced tea. I'm sitting here looking at my i d or whether it's gosh, I, you know, I'm interested in what those green books are behind her. You know, it's, it's, you are, you're engaging with something. Maybe it's an idea or a person or a thing that's not, but you are, you, your focus is outward. Speaker 3: Yeah. I never thought of that, that way. That's, that makes sense. Which is a Speaker 2: Antidote to depression for sure. Hmm. And in many ways, anxiety, because you have to be in the moment. You have to be, whereas anxiety puts you into the future. Hmm. So what, tell me what you learned about yourself in, in writing this book. Speaker 3: Oh gosh. I learned that the very beginning of the research was learning that all of my unfinished business, and I'm doing air quotes visually here was were treasures. And that when I, you know, we rarely let ourselves dig back into the things that didn't go forward. You know, even things I didn't consider failures or unfinished, I just forgot about them. Mm-Hmm. . I just saw the link to how they made me who I am. And the big finishes in my life, the big finishes always had some roots and some unfinished business from, I found my college art supplies. As when you're, when you write and make art, you have all these records back there. Now, you may not have, in other types of curiosity, in other types of creativity like gardening or cooking, you may forget those things you tried. And so I think what I learned is I need to memorialize and celebrate my starts more. Speaker 3: And I do now. The, the rationale for this book was to to help other people that don't act on their ideas and make those people more fun companions, in a way. . And I had, and one of the things I found is after I sold my business, people were saying to me like, what are you, what have you, what are you doing now? What have you finished lately? They didn't use those words, but I could hear that people thought I had a lot of plates spinning. I do have a lot of plates spinning. That's something I'm good at. I'm good at starting things and, you know, maybe I could be the world expert because I have all the failures, and now they're documented. I do probably have a d d there are maybe not the, I Speaker 2: Was just about to ask you about that. Mm-Hmm. Speaker 3: . Yeah. but I no longer, I do not let people shame me about things that I started that are in a pause button. Mm-Hmm. , you know, because when we, like, the, the big lovely lesson or gift I hope this book gives people is that there is every benefit and very low price to, to trying something and setting it aside for another day for trying it and finding out, Hey, I don't really like that. I have a couple of big things I could have totally not what Speaker 2: I thought it would be, or would've Speaker 3: , or I scratch that itch and I'm good. And oh, what a, just a, it's just a glorious way to live. And that's how I wanna live the rest of my life. And I wanna do it with people who feel the same way and are not, and, and, you know, that feed off of me and I feed off of them. So after my first book, you, you may have experienced this too. People will come to you who have the same kind of dreams. Maybe they wanna start a practice, start a podcast, start a book, and they'll say, you know, I have, "I saw your book. I, I, you know, I think I could write a book like that." And so I would say, "Oh gosh, you should1"  You know, advice is personal. Everybody could write an advice book and about one in 10, and, and this bears out in other research, about one in 10 people will actually act on an idea that's even fully formulated. Speaker 3: And, and I would try to help them. And, and you could just see that they ditch the others that were not gonna act on it. They had taken it as far as they wanted to go, and there was not a whole lot you could do for them. So that's what I wanna change. They had, they had, you know, is that mindset that says I can't start it unless I have made room in my life mm-hmm. to be an author. I can't start a book unless I've made room in my life to add a writing practice, find a publisher, whatever they think writing a book is. Yeah. And, you know, so Speaker 2: And it's funny, I, I had lunch with someone that was interested in the TEDx process and was asking me about it. And she's starting to write a book and, and, or she wants to. And she was asking me all about that. And this is a very I, I feel like I'm having the same conversation twice this morning or this afternoon, Uhhuh because she is kind of at that place of, well, I don't know how I'm gonna make room for it. I wanna do it. And I have had this idea for a long time, but, and I looked at her and I said, "you know, start this afternoon."  You know, make, did you Speaker 3: Good for you. I Speaker 2: Said, if you've got 10 minutes, just take 10 minutes. Speaker 3: Exactly. Speaker 2: Just start jotting down some ideas and you don't have to what's the word I'm looking for? You know, you, you don't have to corral the time or say, okay, I'm gonna have gonna do this in on it. It's like, if you just put some consistent energy into it, it, it's gonna grow. It's just a, it's just exactly watering the idea every now and then so that it, it has, it can sustain you with time away from it. But you also, when you get back to it, you go, oh, oh, I hadn't thought about that. And Speaker 3: Exactly. Speaker 2: It, it's, it's, it's kind of refreshing. It's, it's like having a, starting a conversation and realizing the more you have it, the more you really value it. Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. And that's adding something. So Speaker 3: It's like such sort the Nik effect which I wrote about a little. Speaker 2: Yes. I had never heard of that. Speaker 3: I mean, it's just that, it's just what you said. Once you make it real, once you tell your brain, we're gonna do this, or I have a problem if, if we accept it and don't say like, those nine out of 10 people said, I'm probably not gonna do this. If you're one of the ones that said, "Okay, I'm writing a book" -  whatever you declare as starting maybe that's writing your first two sentences, our brain tells us, our brain gets the message that they're on the job. Yeah. And subconsciously we are homing devices to pieces of information, to problem solving help, to meeting people. You know, you meet somebody and you think, oh, like, did they just say something about a book? Are they an author? You know, we are, we're, we wonder, we think there's new information coming out, we're just zeroed into it. Sure. And that we, you know, that happens all the time in our lives. And that effect it's also responsible for the thing that happens after we're done with something. Like we're done studying for tests. We take the test, it's over, and all that information just dumps out more . Yes. Speaker 2: It just goes away. Speaker 3: Well consider the opposite of that true for something that we've started and we haven't finished. So if you, if you take that fall smallest first step, declare it started, the world gives us a bling bag full of gifts. And that's, that's really why I say that the more we start the better and the, even if we start things that are very short term and finish 'em, start a limerick, start a, a soup , things that we, but declare that muscle in ourselves that says, you know, just like it was your instinct to say, start this afternoon. Very few people would say that, but it's that instinct that gets our ideas out and flowing. Mm-Hmm. , Speaker 2: I, I just, I, I really felt very supported. And I, I think if, if you're interested in this and you, you wanna get Becky's book, it is, it is, it is an, it's not, it's not a hard read at all. What is, what is compelling about it to me is that it does go against so much of what many of us are taught that mm-hmm. You know, you don't wanna start something and not finish it because, you know, that means that you're wasting time or you're wasting energy. Mm-Hmm. shame yourself for that. And, and rather than saying, well, what did I learn when I started that I learned this. And so when I start the next thing, I may start it a little differently, or I may, I don't know. I mean, it just gives you information. One of the things that I, I have people say to me all the time when they're trying to make changes, they'll say, well, this isn't really a big deal, but I go, wait, wait, wait. Yes. It's, it's a big deal. . Speaker 3: Yeah. What you're just Speaker 2: About to say is a big deal. Yeah. Speaker 3: And, and you know, a clarification on the finish start more than you can finish. What, and you, because you brought up di divorces in that example of something that wasn't finished or could have been called failure mm-hmm. , because what's the finish? What, what I'd like to say, it doesn't make a very pithy title, but start more than you can finish just exactly as you plan to everything has its finish. But great Speaker 2: Point. What Speaker 3: We don't start because we don't think we can finish as planned. If somebody said, "You're gonna have eight years with a person who you love for six of them, and you learn all these things for each other from each other" you know, maybe you can make that decision to not start because you didn't like that finish. But that's not how things work. And relationships are very creative undertaking. So in many ways, a relationship is a very good example. Yeah. a courageous creative start. So anyway, it's not, it's not don't finish. Finishing is always the end game. We wouldn't, you know, you don't start something you don't want to finish, but it, it's just a, it's just trying to trick that. Because I think when our parents said, "Don't start more than you can finish, don't bite off more than you could chew," they did not make us finish more. They only made us start less. Speaker 2: Right. Speaker 3: They just didn't wanna mess left out . Speaker 2: Right, right. Wow. I wonder how you think this affects the newer, the younger generations. This don't start because they, you know, one of the things that I read a lot about, and then I have a 28 year old, so I'm somewhat in touch with what's hopefully in touch with what's in his world, is that they have not, there's been so much comparison with what other people have started around the world where I knew maybe somebody in Little Rock, you know, in Arkansas, and I was in Pine Bluff and oh, well, you know, I, I didn't know what somebody was doing in Bangkok or, or Toronto or California. I knew my little group of friends and that was it. And, and yet, so maybe some of this don't start anxiety is also about, well, what am I spo, you know, how do I compare what I'm starting to, what somebody else is starting or mm-hmm. , whatever Speaker 3: The biggest learning I had about that and this generation, and remember this was, this book was pretty much done when Covid hit. And the data then on business starts, particularly by young people, was on a 25 year decline. Really. And the research showed that that really came from how we're raising our kids. We no longer say, "Yes, Joey, you can have a lemonade stand. I don't have time to help you, but go for it". No, now we are, we are over parenting. We are trying to get kids in the, in the right schools. So my kids didn't do a lemonade stand after they were four because they were on club soccer teams because, or the debate team, because maybe they could get a scholarship. It was we have very structured instead of free range childhoods. Right. So how do you, you know, it just, it's a subliminal message that there's not time for your ideas. 'cause You have to follow society's schedule. Mm-Hmm. Speaker 2: mm-hmm. . Speaker 3: That's my hunch. And I think it's tragic. So, but then now there have to, and, and then Covid necessitated this boom in business starts because a business start is also, you know, your son starting a freelance business because he has to in Covid. Now, you know, it, it remains to be seen whether those starts will be sustained or whether they were just out of necessity. But that is a good, that is a reason for this rally cry, is that our kids are gonna need to start whole careers for themselves. Mm-Hmm. , I mean, we know things aren't going back the way they were. So that statistic, energy and confidence needs to be nurtured. And they've, they've gotta reduce their risks of trying something, not liking it and then trying something else. It's Speaker 2: Pulling on your face. I mean, you know, it's just, oh, well this didn't work out quite as way, I thought. Yeah, Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. And then again, start something else. , so mm-hmm. . Yeah. Well, I I love your book again. It's called Start More Than You Can Finish. I created Permission Slip to unleash your Best Ideas. The art is absolutely delightful in it. Oh, I'm so glad. I'm as to the enjoyment and pleasure of the book. You know, I told you that I couldn't, I I didn't want to interview you ne last week because I had not had a chance to actually read all of it. And I was so glad that I took the time. I'm too, I just had this real excitement about it. And I, and I hope self work listeners will check it out and and see what it holds for you. And Becky, I couldn't thank you more for being on self work. Thank you so very much. Speaker 3: It was so fun to reconnect. Thank you, Dr. Margaret. Speaker 2: You betcha. Speaker 2: I know you enjoyed that interview. Isn't Becky absolutely fantastic?. I wanna remind you that we now have episode transcripts at the end of every episode of Self Work. I don't know why I haven't done that in the past. It's really been far easier to do do it than I imagined. And so I apologize in many ways to those of you who may struggle with hearing like I do because I have tinnitus. And if I can find a way to add in other episode transcripts, I will. But at least for now, each episode of Self-Work has its own episode transcript. I also wanna remind those of you who maybe haven't subscribed to my website@drmargaretrutherford.com, you can get a free ebook called The Seven Commandments of Good Therapy. But most importantly, you get one weekly newsletter from me, just one, and it offers to you both my weekly blog posts, which some of you may be interested in reading. Speaker 2: I write one still every week, or sometimes we revamp an old one to bring it up to speed and make it applicable to today. And then of course, this podcast and any other news or information that I think you might be interested in, love to have you join, you can subscribe at the website. So now the subscription or the subscribe now is basically embedded when you scroll through the website. It's much easier than it was and I hope far less irritating. But I'd love to have you as a member of my newsletter, thank you to those of you who've listened to my TEDx talk as I record this. We are right at 63,000 views and wow, that's incredible. So keep 'em coming if you can. If you haven't watched I'd so appreciate you going to YouTube, Dr. Margaret Rutherford and TEDx, and you'll get the talk. Or you can go to my Instagram page and you'll see it in the links. That's instagram.com/dr. Margaret Rutherford. Thanks so much for being here. Again, my immense gratitude to you, and I hope this in every episode is helpful to you. Please take care of yourself, your family, and your community. I'm Dr. Margaret, and this has been self work.    

Today's episode is all about understanding the crucial role of income analysis in retirement planning. We'll uncover the secrets of guaranteed income versus the uncertain stuff and shed light on the consequences of retiring without a clear income plan. Don't worry if you're feeling lost - we've got your back with practical solutions and expert guidance. Tune in and take charge of your retirement cash flow!   Important Links:  Website: http://www.yourplanningpros.com Call: 844-707-7381 ----more---- Transcript:  Speaker 1  0:00  Welcome into another edition of the podcast. It's playing with the tax man with Tony Mauro and myself here to talk about mastering some retirement cash flow really kind of understanding income is going to be the topic conversation on the podcast this week with Tony. Who is de Moines professional alternative at tax Doctor Inc. And you can find them online at your planning proz.com at your planning proz.com What's going on, buddy? How are you?   Speaker 2  0:25  I'm good enjoying the summer? How about you?   Speaker 1  0:27  Yeah, pretty much the same. It's been a bit of wet one, though. It's been a lot of lot of rain. Yeah, down here where we're at. It's been a lot of rain. So   Speaker 2  0:32  yeah, we have not had a lot of rain. And we just got some scoring well needed. Yeah, it's funny   Speaker 1  0:37  how the country does that Right? Talk to several people all the time every week. And it's, it's always a little something different. And then whatever neck of the woods you happen to be in. So right here lately, it's just been been really wet. So our Fourth of July got kind of rained out. But that's okay. We still had a good time and with family and friends. And so everybody out for everybody else that as well. We are back here. This is for our our later July edition here. So this is our second half of July. So let's get into understanding some income. Because you know, cash is king. We've heard that Tony a million times. But in retirement incomes King right? Income is always King in retirement. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I guess it is all the time. But it's really, it's really more important, or certainly critically important in retirement. So what's kind of some scenarios that some issues that you can be looking at, if you don't really have a good clear picture of your retirement income?   Speaker 2  1:33  If you're, you know, if you're kind of DIY, and you're thinking, well, I'll just figure it out when I get there. What are some of the issues you've seen people bump into, you know, I've seen, I've seen a lot of it up this way. And some of the people that own land, and farms and whatnot can probably relate to this. But I've seen, you know, retirees come in, and they'll say, you know, I'm ready to hang it up. But I've, I've got all this land, you know, but the land itself isn't really producing any income. So while they have a lot of assets, that that asset or assets isn't really throwing off any income? I see that a lot. Yeah, yeah, I see a lot of people trying to work their retirement income from a basket of, or a portfolio of securities that they had when they were younger, and trying to kind of make shift pull money out, you know, as they need it. Because they don't have a real clear picture. In other words, most of the time, it's, you know, not income generating stocks, and they're just going to wait for prices to go up. And, you know, hopefully sell and make gains and use that when that doesn't happen, or, or it takes longer than expected. They're stuck with out income. Well, I'd like to make life app,   Speaker 1  2:36  I guess what we should do is maybe identify some potential sources of income that people might have as a retired person. So what are some examples of different places that you know, you might be able to draw income from depending on obviously your life? Right? Well,   Speaker 2  2:51  I mean, the list is long, but the easy ones are, you know, your 401 K's pensions, if you have one, IRAs, of course, Social Security. Yeah, that's the big one. Everybody knows if you have some annuities, dividends and income and interest income from either investments, or bank accounts, CDs, things like that bonds, some of you could have some other type of income, you know, maybe you're working part time, maybe you are doing a little side hustle. And you've got some income coming from that. Yeah, yeah, sure. All of those things are potentials, but the three or four biggies prior Social Security, IRAs and 401 K's.   Speaker 1  3:29  So you know, we talk often about being diversified Tony in the realm of investments. And I think that's where people's mind goes to, okay, I need to be diversified and not have too much in large cap or, you know, or something like that. But you really also want diversification of income sources. So you're not relying overly heavily on just one. And obviously, the big one here to think about is if you've not done any planning, or you've not done any savings properly, or some things happen in your own social security, either completely, or it's making most of what you need to live on. And I'll throw my mom under the bus with this, because unfortunately, that's where she's at in her life in her 80s. Now, I help her out. But you know, from her own potential standpoint, that's where she got she lost just about everything in the Oh, eight downturn, and in addition to some bad choices and things of that nature. She's on Social Security only. And that is clearly not where we want to be.   Speaker 2  4:23  That's definitely not really where you want to be. And I've seen that too. And I've seen tax clients that get to the end. And that's really it. Because at that point, you are, it's impossible to try to generate other sources of income, you know, because your timetable it's got Yeah, it's just too late, you know, and so most of these sources need to be thought out along the way. And so which, again, begs the question of, you got to you got to get a plan and you got to work the plan, which we're always talking about. And, you know, that   Speaker 1  4:52  importance of saving, you know, paying your future self right, Exactly.   Speaker 2  4:57  Yeah, I mean, that's what it isn't, you know, it's hard for to take Get a 65 year old and even if they've got a large portfolio, say of of stocks or bonds or something like that and say, well, let's, let's let's diversify a little bit and go out and buy for rentals, you know, that might not be the wisest move, because, you know, they take, even though they could throw off some income, for example, well, you know, that's actually work, you know, and they may not be the wisest of choices. But you know, for a guy that's had rentals for a long time and wants to continue to have them in retirement, you know, it's a great another source. But I do think you're right, we're really trying to aim for before we even talk about what types of earnings you're getting on them or what the income is, but the different sources, the I think the more you different sources you have the more potential to really live the retirement you want.   Speaker 1  5:43  Exactly. And that way, you're not overly reliant on any one thing, which again, is that diversification key. So let's talk about the two kinds of income in the way that most advisors, I think, probably categorize this or people have heard it, which is going to be what, what are the two kind of ways we would think about income? Well, a lot of times people think about it as guaranteed versus not guaranteed. Right. And, you know, I like to phrase it a you know, on the guaranteed side is guaranteed for as long as you live. So security first. Yeah, that's the first security.   Speaker 2  6:19  yeah. If you have an annuity and you annuitize it, you know, it kind of becomes like a social security payment. It's annuitize.   Speaker 1  6:26  So security check even say annuity on the top of it, I think. I think it does, yeah, anyway.   Speaker 2  6:31  So those are the two, you know, and if you do and are lucky enough to have an old fashioned pension that works the same way, you know, it's a monthly income stream for life. So if you've got those, those are kind of, you can't make changes to them. You know, I mean, you get x and that's it. It's over when generally,   Speaker 1  6:49  yeah, whatever you like, whenever you turn on your Social Security, you know, that's your that's what you're locked into that kind of, that's what you're like, yeah, and you're not guaranteed is that's going to be the that's gonna be our personal stuff, right?   Speaker 2  7:00  As we all have personal stuff, your IRAs 401 K savings, you know, pretty much everything else that you're kind of hoping to use in retirement, and I say non guaranteed, because it you know, you have to initiate, I mean, even if the IRA or 401 K or your investments, you know, fully invested, you got to initiate Okay, and figure out how much is it going to earn? And how much can I take, and so in that could fluctuate a little bit. And that's why most advisors when they start talking about retirement, you know, and you hear a lot about, well, what's the sustainable rate? You know, is it 4%? Is it 3% 5% That I can take out month in month out every year, you know, and maybe not use my principal, or maybe some of my principal, but because retirees, you know, we're, again, we're thinking about that income of how much do I need every month? And then how much you know, above that? Do I do I want?   Speaker 1  7:52  Well, so if we're thinking about guaranteed versus non guaranteed now, balance was where I was going to go with this, I got ahead of myself. So you know, somebody might say, well, what's the proper balance? Like, I want more of the guaranteed many of us would just say that, because we feel like, okay, great, that means that we're covered. But often if you're thinking about this, okay, so if that's where the strategizing comes in, because let's say you've got your, your assets that you've built up of, let's just keep it an easy number, a million dollars, right? And a 401k, or whatever, you know, various different sources like that. And then you got your Social Security, your polling, and the balance that comes into play, Tony, when you're trying to figure out how much you need to pull from what place at what time to create that difference of that shortfall, but also not cause yourself taxation issues, correct?   Speaker 2  8:36  Correct. Yeah. And that's where the good planning comes in more for retirees. I think that even people, you know, just trying to get to the end, right. They're working because, yeah, yeah, in the working years, but it really comes down to, you know, sitting down and trying to analyze what your expenses are, so you can figure out what is covered what isn't, I think a lot of times, people don't realize that, even on the non guaranteed side, once you get this number, or your shortfall number. And depending on what you have, you know, it's fairly easily to predict, especially with today's software, where you can take a person's, let's say, let's say they had a million dollars, and we were going to assume a 4% withdrawal rate you can easily see based on different investments scenarios, how much predictability or what percentage of the time if they live to say 95 to 100? Would they absolutely run out of money and, and so then they could sit there and say, okay, so you know, there's a, for example, a 95% chance, if I have x amount of my guaranteed side, and I take my Million Dollar Portfolio invested in such a way that it's going to throw off X that I'm never going to run out of money and I I've already got everything covered, plus what I want to do and then they can feel good about that, you know, and that's, that's where the numbers come in.   Speaker 1  9:55  Well, now many of us have heard the term paycheck and play check. And if not, I think that was actually coined by Tom hegner, I believe, financial professional as well, you know, so typically, we might think of, okay, well, I need that guaranteed money. That's my quote unquote, paycheck, right? That's covering my must haves and must haves, or you know, the house, rent, or mortgage or food, right? You know, the things we have to have. And then the paycheck side, often people say, well, that's gonna be the non guaranteed and that's the fun stuff in retirement. Do you see that as kind of accurate? Or is that still a really is there other strategizing to where maybe we want to try to pay for everything out of those paychecks and then let the paychecks grow or be really special.   Speaker 2  10:40  you know, a one off kind of deals, I suggest that to some people that are in in the position where they're guaranteed side can cover everything. Right, you know, I don't have any clients right now that have taken me up on that, you know, that say, I want my my stash my paycheck side to just sit and grow for legacy for right. Yeah,   Unknown Speaker  11:00  I guess it depends on your what you want. Right? Legacy is a great, yeah.   Speaker 2  11:03  Yeah. But it is it is a point to consider. I mean, most of the people that we work with, even their you know, without increasing their, their lifestyle, the guaranteed side, the paycheck side is not generally fully covered by guaranteed stuff. Right. And so we all right, yeah, it's a shortfall. Yeah. And so we're kind of dipping into and then we got to show them. Well, you know, but you know, that shortfall could easily be covered by the other side of things. Yeah, the   Speaker 1  11:31  million bucks put away. Let's say that was the exam. Yeah. And that's I think that's where most of us go right, Tony, I mean, because unless you're lucky enough to have a pension. And so because, like the like the milking stool philosophy, right, the analogy, excuse me, were the three legs of a milking stool, right you so if you've got a pension and Social Security, usually a fairly modest or even or a good, you know, nest egg built of your own, you may not have to touch that nest egg very often, because the Social Security in the pension covers it. But most of us are not in that boat. So Right. So that shortfall is a little bigger, because we don't have that quote unquote, pension leg. That's true. Yes. And even,   Speaker 2  12:06  I mean, it's hard to to find these days, where they've got that, you know, because most people aren't in, you know, a place for 3540 years, most places don't have pensions, like government, right, or stay at, let's say, government. And so there is that shortfall. Now, in my own personal situation, my wife happens to be in a government spot. She's been there for 35 years. And so she has our IPERs, which, even though it's extremely good, you know, it doesn't replace 100% of her salary, but it replaces about 70%. And so the   Speaker 1  12:38  shortfall, you gotta kind of you may have to look at like your own personal nest egg, correct my own   Speaker 2  12:42  personal essay, and then she's gonna have Social Security on top of that. So I think with, like, in her case, about 80% of her pre retirement income is going to be covered. And so that's pretty pretty darn close, you know, and then with the other investments, you know, we have and whatnot that that's our play, check slash, fill in the gap money. And that's what you go with, you know, when you got to get engineering   Speaker 1  13:08  well, so and this is where I guess the strategizing of maximization for your income streams or sources, comes into play, right? So having a good conversation, having a good strategy, put together with an advisor, like yourself, so we can it cuz we hear like terms like, hey, get us Social Security Maximization, right? For example. What's the strategy for doing that? And that's really where working with a Pro comes into place is we talk all the time, Tony about the DIY movement of the last number of years has been very easy. It's in it's been easy for quite a while, let's be honest, to accumulate money, right? So if you do the basics, you can probably save, you know, for your future self. But the retirement aspect, that preservation distribution, and the little funky nuances of how to maximize this, what's the best strategy for that? How's it gonna affect tax aid, you know, taxation by taking this money out at this time, and so on. And so that's where the nitty gritty gets really tough for folks. And that's where, obviously, you know, folks like you come in   Speaker 2  14:05  it is and even with a Social Security, you know, planning for because everybody's got the question, Well, should I take it early? Or? I'm gonna take it a second I, you know, I for retirement benefits they owe me it's mine. Right? Yeah, it's mine, you know, and so I tried to talk to him about well, but if we do this, based on what you have, it might be better to wait, you know, type of thing. And I know, and big money that we're talking to, can be big money, big money. And in my own case, again, back to my wife's pension, you know, the, one of the decisions we'll have to make is, well, do we want to just take the straight pension and then when she dies, if she dies before me, I'm out, or do we want to make sure it takes a little less and so you know, if she dies before me, I've still got it till I die, you know, and then run that it's over. So it's those kinds of little decisions you got to put a pencil to and try to figure out what's best for your own situation.   Speaker 1  14:57  Yeah, and often you definitely want to make sure you're making the right one there. or because, depending again on the strategy, because some people might say, well, we're gonna take the bigger dollar option, which does eliminate the spousal often, right. And so if you do that you better have that backup plan in place to know that the spouse is still covered, once that pension runs out, so or the exactly person passes away prematurely, or, you know, whatever the case might be. So there's a lot of little nuances to that. So understanding your income is really important. So this is kind of a quick rundown of some of some different categories you might find. And, again, the guaranteed versus the non guaranteed and how they kind of all play together. And that's why it's important to get a plan and a strategy. So if you need some help, and you're not already working with Tony, reach out to him and have a conversation, hopefully this kind of sparked some interest for you to start thinking about, Yeah, where is my income sources coming from? Or how do I make my 401 K and income source, things like that? Reach out to Tony and his team at tax Doctor Inc. find them online at your planning proz.com That's you're planning proz.com or call him at 844-707-7381. And don't forget to subscribe to the podcast playing with the tax man on Apple, Google or Spotify. Alright, Tony, thanks for hanging out, buddy. I appreciate it.   Unknown Speaker  16:06  All right. We'll see you next time. Yeah,   Speaker 1  16:07  I'll see you in a couple of weeks and we'll be back in August with a new episode here on plan with the tax man   Disclaimer: Securities offered through Avantax Investment ServicesSM. Member FINRA, S.I.P.C. Investment advisory services offered through Avantax Advisory Services. Insurance services offered through an Avantax affiliated insurance agency.

There are some people who can take the most difficult situations and find the humor in them. Cathy Sikorski is one of those people. I met her several years ago at a midlife bloggers association meeting and became an instant admirer. She's written a blog for years dedicated to examining the hard and hilarious life of caregiving, which she's done herself for the last twenty years. In addition to that, she's a practicing  dealing largely in Elder Law and in today's episode, has all kinds of personal and professional/legal advice to pass on to you. She's the author of several books, the first being “Showering with Nana."  Today we're going to discuss two more that outline very eloquently how to talk to your loved ones about their end of life plans – or what needs to happen when dementia is in the picture: Who Moved My Teeth and Twelve Conversations: How to Talk to Almost Anyone about Long-Term Care Planning. Not the most “fun” conversation to have – but vital ones. Our Advertisers Links!  Click HERE for the NEW fabulous offer from AG1 - with bonus product with your subscription! You can hear more about this and many other topics by listening to my podcast, SelfWork with Dr. Margaret Rutherford. Subscribe to my website and receive my weekly newsletter including a blog post and podcast! If you'd like to join my FaceBook closed group, then click here and answer the membership questions! Welcome! My book entitled Perfectly Hidden Depression is available everywhere and you can order here! Its message is specifically for those with a struggle with strong perfectionism which acts to mask underlying emotional pain. But the many self-help techniques described can be used by everyone who chooses to begin to address emotions long hidden away that are clouding and sabotaging your current life. And it's available in paperback, eBook or as an audiobook! And there's another way to send me a message! You can record by clicking below and ask your question or make a comment. You'll have 90 seconds to do so and that time goes quickly. By recording, you're giving SelfWork (and me) permission to use your voice on the podcast. I'll look forward to hearing from you! Episode Transcript Speaker 1: Well, you and I have known each other, Kathy, gosh, for 10 years. Maybe a Speaker 2: Long, I, I know a long time. We've grown up a lot in the years that it's been, so I'm gonna go Yeah. A long time Speaker 1: . Yeah. A long time. Well, I think I met you, uh, when we were all meeting at Midlife Boulevard and that kind of thing. Right? Right. Speaker 2: Yep. That's what I remember in that, in Nashville, I'm gonna say. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Speaker 1: That huge hotel ...Yeah. It was great. And I have loved your work since, um, tried to have you on as one of the first guests of self-work, and I had no idea what I was doing technically, and I botched it, and I practically was in tears and said, I'll have to have you back on. And six years later, here we are, Speaker 2: , hey. But you know, a lot has happened in six years, and honestly Right. This is the universe because now is a really good time for us to talk. Yes, I have, and you have refocused our work many times. Right. And the refocus has helped us be better, um, Sherpa's for people in women especially, but people, uh, in what we're trying the message that we're trying to get out. Right. And so, I'm happy that it took six years. I, I, I, yeah. Really am, because I'm better focused about what I wanna say. Speaker 1: Well, you are incredibly kind. Your first book that I read was showering with Nana. Yeah. And I, it brought tears to my eyes, and I, I just loved that book. Speaker 2: Speaker 1: Well, for those of you who don't know, Kathy Sikorski's work, basically, I mean, she's, she's gone. And I want you to tell your story, but you've gone from being someone who was caring for a lot as I understand it, gone from a family member, a friend who was caring for a lot of people who were getting older and having those kinds of problems to then you earned your elder law degree and, and really have changed your whole life. And so I greatly admire that because it's, it's something where you have said, let me take what life has given me and then be able to have the experience on a lot of different levels, both personal and professional, so that I can really help other people. And I wanted you on, because I think this is so important, um, that we talk about, um, elder care and, um, everything you talk about, you have two new books, uh, that you sent fairly New, who Moved My Teeth, which I, after I read this, I peppered my husband with questions about, do we have that? Do we have this, do we have this? Um, and then I, I read until about 10 30 last night, uh, 12 conversations, how to talk to almost anyone about long-term planning. And so I have both of those books here with questions. Uh, so tell us a little bit about your story first. Speaker 2: So, so, yeah. I'm so happy that you brought up the fact that my life, what happened in my life, really informed and changed the way I decided to have a career. Yeah. Because I think, especially women, we get very feeling trampled down about what life is throwing at us and how we can't go do the thing we thought we wanted to do, or what we should be doing, or how we thought life should let us do this. That's right. Thing. Right. We feel very trampled by, by caregiving, by caring for our children, our parents, our, our, our spouses or whatever. And yet, it's an expectation that right or wrong, and a lot of times wrong, comes with just being a female, right? Mm-hmm. . Speaker 2: And so, I, I, I became a caregiver for eight different family and friends over the last 30 years. And honestly, this is a job for me that happened out of certainly love and respect for people in my life. My grandmother, my aunts, my, you know, my very good friend who fell down a flight of stairs and had no one to care for her, and had a traumatic brain injury. My brother-in-law, my sister passed away, and he was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis, the worst possible kind. And so I became his primary caregiver. So my only point being about that, that you made, which was, there were times when I was mad about that. Like, this isn't what I wanna be doing. This isn't what I think my life is supposed to be about. Right. I have dreams, I have aspirations. And it turns out that that's exactly what my dreams and aspirations were all about. It was taking my life experience and turning it into the person I wanted to be, which was this speaker, author, educator about something really important that I learned that I could share with people to help make their lives better. Speaker 1: Was that even close to anything that you had predicted or dreamed or wondered about that maybe that's the direction your life would go? Was it anywhere close? Speaker 2: No. Well, I didn't know it, but yes, because here's the thing. I wanted to be an actress. Okay? I was a theater major in college , um, for a couple years. And then I realized two things. I had a boyfriend. I couldn't spend any time with him, and I didn't, wasn't sure I could make any money being an actress, right? It, it, it's the poor girl's way to, to go about it. Maybe, I don't know. Lots of people make money and lots of money, but, so then my other dream was to be a lawyer, which is exactly what I did. Um, but in my mind it was the, the Clarence Darrow, the, you know, the big trial lawyer who's gonna save and help people by, you know, making these great trial things where, like you see on television the big surprise ending, whatever, all of which, of course has an acting component to it. May I add, right? Speaker 1: ? Of course. Speaker 2: So what that means for me, really what that meant for me is two things. I really wanted to help people, and I wanted to be in front of audiences in some fashion, right? Mm-hmm. and Margaret, that's exactly what I do. Wow. That's exactly what I do. Exactly. Speaker 1: Yeah. Wow. Mm-hmm. , it's giving me goosebumps. Speaker 2: Me too. . Speaker 1: And that's, you know, how when you say you got angry about it, it, it's, I mean, that's a lot of people to be primary caregiver for. Speaker 2: Yeah. . Speaker 1: So, I mean, can you tell us a little bit about, was there no one else? Did you just do it better than everyone? And you knew you did, did you, was it just everybody? That's the way your life turned out. Speaker 2: Everybody in your audience probably is a caregiver on some level, let's be honest. Mm-hmm. and, and, and the caregiving, you know, like I say, the joke is the train comes to my door and stops and everybody gets off. I mean, two things happened. Number one, like my grandmother in that book, my first book Showering with Dana, she came to live with me. And I had a two-year-old at the time. Mm-hmm. , so had a 92 year old and a Speaker 1: Two year, which is a hilarious book, by the way. Speaker 2: Thank you. They were, they definitely wanted to, you know, gang up on me and see what they could do, get away with it, Speaker 1: , Speaker 2: And it worked a lot. Um, but they, but that experience then led to, you know, other family members both on my side and my husband's side needing care. And as I'm doing this, as you remarked, I, I was a, I was a small town lawyer at the time mm-hmm. mm-hmm. . And as I started to formulate my practice around elder law, which is really kind of a new area of law, it is not, it is not the ancient law of, you know, criminal law and trial law, and even a state law, which goes back hundreds of years. Elder law is new because it's, it's about Medicare and Medicaid and nursing homes and, you know, things that have been growing and growing and growing during our lifetime. Mm-hmm. . But I needed to know this stuff cuz the people I were take, I was taking care of were old people. And then I was taking care of not so old people, but who were also in a system of Medicare and Medicaid because of their illnesses, their dramatic illnesses or whatever. So I, I just had to learn it. Sure. And then I became an elder lawyer, you know, cause of that. Speaker 1: Is that an actual, uh, specific kind of law, specific law degree? Speaker 2: It isn't, it isn't a law degree. There are certifications that you, certifications take. Yes, absolutely. And there are classes now, I would say they're fairly new in law school. Law schools are now offering elder law classes. Um, and it is definitely a specialty in law for sure. Okay. It's ab and there's lots of lawyers. That's Speaker 1: So that's really what I do. I try to teach everyone out there why you need an elder lawyer. What is it that you need? And what is different about elder law as opposed to any other, Speaker 1: Well, you make that point very well. again So, but the point being that I think some of us do go on autopilot, even if we're aware of these kinds of things. Speaker 1: And then other people just simply don't wanna think about it. You know, I grew up the daughter of funeral director and we, I mean, death was a part of life. I heard about people dying every day. And so I have a little bit of a different take on it, I think because of that. But certainly in my practice now for a long time, I, you know, mortality is something that, an illness and losing control, I mean, it's something that we all fear so much. Look at what's happening to Bruce Willis right now. I mean, he's taking the very brave step of letting some information out about it. Fronto, frontotemporal dementia or something like that. Mm-hmm. Speaker 2: mm-hmm. Speaker 1: . Um, and so, you know, good for him, but it's also very frightening and, uh, very, I think probably how many people have said, I'd rather just be hit by a bus than develop Alzheimer's. Speaker 2: So here's the thing though, it doesn't work that way. Yes. That's the problem. It doesn't work that way. And by ignoring at your peril, not taking, getting your affairs in order mm-hmm. , you really make it hard for the people who love you. That's right. And that's not what you wanna do. You don't wanna make it hard for the people who love you. And so, especially in my world where I deal with people who are sick, I deal with people who are incapacitated. So, so Bruce Willis is a perfect example of being so generous of spirit, his family, to share this diagnosis with the world, which is quite frankly, a horrific diagnosis. Yes. It's, um, to say, we've been dealing with this, we now know what it is and we're going to continue to deal with it. Speaker 2: But you can absolutely pretty much ensure that they have their affairs in order. So in other words, during the journey when they were trying to figure out the problem, they made sure that their powers of attorney were in order. That they, that those powers of attorney let them do what they want them to do. Because it's like you said, sure. You sort of know about it, you hear about it, you have it. But did it really do what you wanted it to do? Which is why I talk about it more specifically in the book so people know what questions to ask. What kinds of questions am I supposed to be asking about this document that somebody has shoved under my nose to sign? Right. Speaker 1: Let's talk a little bit about, I mean, I did not read all of who Moved My Teeth, but the, the picture of the book that I got was certainly, there's a lot of information about exactly what you just said at the beginning of the book. And then the latter part of the book is more, um, well, practical, practical, pragmatic, Speaker 2: Practical advice for caregivers for really Yes. When you're stepping into it, how do I talk to my person who, you know, how do I spend a whole day with someone who's quite frankly making me insane with it? The same questions, or Sure. You know, what kinds of things can I do? What are they acting crazy? Maybe they have a urinary tract infection. And I never knew about Speaker 1: That. I was gonna ask you about UTIs, cuz that's really a big deal. You know, before we move on too much, there's a young man I worked with several years ago now, he lived on a farm kind of complex. All his family lived together and he adored, adored his grandmother. And she was diagnosed with, uh, a terminal illness and she refused to talk with him about her dying. And I'll never forget, he came, this young man was tough as a brick, you know, and a reared on a farm and used to, I mean, he didn't, I mean, the fact that he even came to therapy was a minor miracle. But he said, it's just like there's this, she's gone, she was dead by the time he came in. And she, he said, I never got to talk to her about how I was gonna miss her and what I loved about her. And I know that's a separate topic in many ways from some of the more legal things, but not really. I mean, it's intertwined, isn't it? Speaker 2: But I, yes, and I love that because these legal things are an act of love. Speaker 1: Yes. Speaker 2: This is an act of love both for you as the person who is doing it. And for you as a person who's saying, mom, dad, I wanna spend time with you. I just had this conversation with two three daughters who, who have a, a podcast as well, which, which we talked about doing that. But, but they, they said we had to step in so quickly as caregivers. We didn't get the end of times as daughters. Speaker 1: Right. Speaker 2: And, and I have read this again and again, that people would so much more rather be grandsons and daughters and loving spouses rather than caregivers trying to deal with paperwork and, you know, and hospitals and doctors and anything you can do to make the hard road, the, the, the legal road, the people, anything that you can do to make that crisis part of the road smoother, gives you time to be a loved one. Speaker 1: Oh, that's a great point. It's such a significant one. Um, it, this the other book I talked about, 12 conversations really does pick out, you know, how do you talk to your dad? How do you talk to your mom? How do you talk to your siblings? How do you talk to your children? Um, and I I I loved a lot because you actually then have dialogue that we can read and go along with it. And you made jokes along the way. I love one of 'em called, I mean, I, I, I I dogeared it. What was it you said? Um, let see. Oh, it says, as you go through this chapter, you'll begin to understand that although this basic paperwork is crucial, it is the tip of the iceberg. And we are on the caregiving Titanic. . Speaker 2: Well, wow, that was good. Yeah, Speaker 1: That was good, wasn't it, Speaker 2: ? Speaker 1: And you're right, it's inevitable. You know what's gonna happen eventually, um, I've been on a hospice board for, or I was on it for many years and, you know, heard a lot of stories about how people handle palliative care and hospice and was thinking about that as I read your books. And, um, but I, I love the specificity of, of what you talk about in who Moved My Teeth, for example. You literally have a list of 60 ways to be more patient. You know, everything from count to 10 to drink a large glass of water, change what you're doing, take a bath, put gum in your mouth, , Speaker 1: Tell a joke, take a picture, order food, put lotion on you or your loved one, clean out a drawer, go through family photos, dance, bake color, and a coloring book. Tell a story. I mean, it's just these, I love the specificity of this. Speaker 2: And that gives not only you control, but the, but your loved one. Right. Right. So whether they have dementia or they're just ill, or they're just homebound or, you know, everyone doesn't have dementia, Margaret or, you know, caregiving isn't isn't just for those people with dementia. Like, it, it, it extends itself to lots of different kinds of people and their, their challenges. But if you are, for instance, coloring with them, it just gives them some control. Here's your page, here's my page. You can pick your crayon, you can pick your colored pencil. And even that, that little tiny weird thing of the two of you sitting there, you know, adult coloring was a big deal. Okay. Several years ago. Right. Speaker 1: Especially during the pandemic. Mm-hmm. Speaker 2: . Yes. And it's or puzzling. Right. Putting puzzles together, it's because two things. Number one, it's, it's kind of like, uh, what's that called? Parallel play. Mm-hmm. . Right? So, so you're both doing something, you're both feeling in control of the situation, and yet you're not necessarily having to engage, which sometimes disengaging is good, right? Speaker 1: Yeah, sure. Speaker 2: So, so any of those things is, is yes, certainly to, helpful to you as the caregiver, but it's probably also helpful to the person you're caring for as well. Mm-hmm. . And they have much less control over the situation than you do, let's be honest. Speaker 1: And, and them accepting that I, I recently had a, um, a benign tumor removed and my son, who's 28, came and stayed for three weeks to help take care of me cuz it was a more serious surgery and that kind of thing. And we sat down and had a talk about, okay, let's, let's talk about what's in our future and you know, you are our only child and you know, what, what comes to you now? And he looked at us and said, well, I think I'm probably gonna have to move to Fable, Arkansas, or y'all going to move where I am. One of the two eventually. And, and we talked about timing and, and I decided after reading your book that the next time he comes, I'm gonna ask him to stay another day and go over, go to our lawyers with us and talk about these documents that we've signed that he's named in. But he was, what he was 16 or 17 when we did them. Right. Speaker 2: So Speaker 1: He needs to hear about it and know what's going on. And, and I, I loved that taking, that was my own personal takeaway from your book. Excellent. And I, I think that that is so important for people. And, and again, doing it when you're 40, I mean, uh, waiting, you know, oh, I'll do that when I'm 85. Well, you don't know what you're gonna be like at 85 Speaker 2: And what you do at 40 is not what you're gonna need to do at 60. Right. It's very different. So if you did it at 40, you and you're 60, you need to take a second look. Speaker 1: Yeah. Speaker 2: You need to really, what Speaker 1: Do you think, what do you think is the, is the most common either error in thinking or behavior or both that people, Speaker 2: Well, the, the most common is not doing anything. Right. That's the most common. So, so if anybody who's listening to this now says, okay, I didn't do anything. I'm, I need to go do something, then yes, please go do that. Get your powers of attorney, get your wills, get your advanced directives. Just get them, get them. Mm-hmm. , um, and talk to an attorney about what you need and what your desires are. Specifically, I'd say the second most, um, common error is people who have done them, did them 10, 20, 15, 30 years ago. Especially people who have little children, they panic. I want someone to take care of my kids. If anything happens to me, I wanna make sure they have money if anything happens to me. And that's wonderful. And then they, you know, I always say they take that and they shove it into their underwear drawer and then you never see it again. . And you need to take it out of the underwear drawer, like Speaker 1: That old pair of underwear you used to be able to get into. But Speaker 2: Exactly. This is where I held up the granny panties and say, you need the granny panties of the wills. It's fresh, it's clean and it covers everything. . That's what you need to do. So that's the second biggest problem is people don't update their documents and boy have things changed. There's a thing now, um, it's called rufi. I wish I could remember what it stands for without looking it up. But what it's about is giving someone access to your digital information if you are sick and incapacitated, which is really important. Or quite frankly, if you're dead. Right. Yeah. And that information, that acknowledgement that yes, I'm giving this person access, has to be in those documents. Not the password so much, but yes, this person has the authority to get into my digital assets. And then when your son comes Margaret, show him where you keep your passwords, which, you know, online Speaker 1: Is, I don't see him anywhere. I keep online my Speaker 2: Head . Right. Online isn't great and in your head is even worse. . Speaker 1: Well, so what I did, I I sort of, the night before the surgery I went, what, wait a minute, what if something happens? And so I gave him the major passwords I could think about and we both kind of cried. And, and then I said, you know, but I, I should have all those written down somewhere or can Speaker 2: Somewhere. I mean, everyone says don't write them down, but truthfully, if you can't get into your computer where your passwords are, not having them written down doesn't help you. Right. Right. So you at least have to have your basic passwords somewhere where your loved one can have access to it, but legally also give them access to it. I see. In your documents. And that's new. That's not even in, I don't, pretty sure that's not in my first book. It's probably in my sec, my second or third book. Um, but things keep changing and that's why you need to keep looking at these documents, say every five years or so. Cause life changes. Speaker 1: You know, I also, um, my dad was always really sad because after his dad died and his dad died when he was 15, there was such family uproar about the will mm-hmm. Right. But it ripped the family apart. And I think a lot of the suggestions that you make are trying to say, you know, you could be that family where siblings don't talk to each other anymore after someone is either you're, you're having to decide about caregiving or, or you're having to decide about, you know, death issues or what's gonna happen after death. It, it can rip families apart like nothing I've ever seen really before. Speaker 2: Um, and so you, your work in my work are the same in that regard because in the sense that communication mm-hmm. is always going to be the key. Right. Right. You have to, you have to tell your children and your, it's so funny that you're saying this cuz I just, my mother's 90 fours down the street from me, and she's a pip and a half, and your listeners can go see us on TikTok if you want. I do fun little videos with my mom all the time. on TikTok. Um, and they're just, that's all I do is videos with my mom, who's 94. And she's so hilarious. Um, but I just said to myself self, I said, we need, although her will is very recent, I would say five years old, I wanna look at it again because I'm not sure it does what she wants it to do based on conversations that we've been having. So let's look at it. Right. Let's talk to my siblings and, you know, let's see what it, you gotta have, you have to, at least this is the other thing that you asked me that I sort of didn't mention is people just like you said, don't wanna talk about this. Yeah. It's scary, it's uncomfortable, but, you know, that's why we Speaker 1: Have, and also, uh, it, I mean, my brother died three year, three and a half years ago. It also, you, you can't talk about it without your own feelings about mortality or getting ill or losing control or, you know, these things that we fear that we just distract ourselves from and, you know, either have another beer or watch another baseball game mm-hmm. or go out and, you know, hunt something or fish something. Mm-hmm. So that we're in control or, or vape or whatever we do, um, to, to distract ourselves from the reality. Speaker 1: Right. You don't, you don't get outta dying. Right. So, um, it's, I I just think that these conversations are, they really can be trust builders. They can be things that, that offer clarity, that offer trust, that offer a sense. And as you point out a sense of control to the person who is older and realizes that they have a disease that is going to weaken them or, or cause their life to be something that frankly, you know, they wish did, hadn't happened to them, uh, like Bruce Willis. But at the same time it can, and we don't get to pick. So it, it's not like going to a, a restaurant and saying, oh, I'll have that. You know, it's just not like that. And, Speaker 2: But it's in the same vein, it's much harder to have a disease than it is to have a conversation about what happens if I have a disease. Speaker 1: Right. Speaker 2: It's not that hard. My friends, which is why I wrote the 12 conversations book. Yeah. It's really not that hard. It's five or six simple questions you need to ask yourself about what you want, what you think you wanna do, um, and then get a lawyer to write it up for you. It don't make it harder than it needs to be. Speaker 1: Speaker 1: Number one, there is nothing that is more mentally health challenging than being a caregiver. Mm-hmm. . It is, it is so hard. And I I I encourage you desperately to, if you have, especially if you have mental health benefits at your work or you know, in your insurance or whatever to use them because caregiving is a mental health stress. Do not think that it's not because it is. That's Speaker 1: As many people found out during the pandemic when it was all of a sudden 24 7 kind of Speaker 2: In your face. Yes, exactly. And if you are not yet a caregiver, but you see it coming down the road and you just happen to be going to a therapist, talk to them about that mm-hmm. , talk to them about this piece of your life that you see coming for you. And maybe if you're having challenges having that conversation with that person, or you yourself don't wanna do it, but you know, it has to be done, maybe you can get some tactics, some tools, because this is also about Sure the legal tools are important. That's what I'm here to tell you about. Get those legal tools. But it's also the communication tools, you know, the stress tools. There's so many tools that you need as a caregiver, and there's lots of people out there who can help you with that. Speaker 1: I, I, I also, before we, before we stop, I wanna make the point, I I, you're right. Caregiving you, you think, oh, I'm just taking mom to get her hair done, or Oh, I'm just taking dad to the post office, or I'm just doing this, or I'm just doing that. But those things add up mm-hmm. , and you've got children of your own, or you've got a job of your own or you've got a home of your own or you, you live two hours away or whatever it happens to be. You're right. It's, we can minimize, oh, this is, this shouldn't be, uh, you know, I'm just doing that. But they're, when you're just doing four or five or 10 or 12 or 15 or 20 of those things a month, then that's a lot. And it changes your life. And it can definitely impact the relationship you're in with a spouse or a partner. Um, and actually they may be going through something similar with their parents. Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. , Speaker 1: So, or aunts or uncles or whomever, grandparents. So it's just a conversation about it and, and to say, gosh, this is, you know, maybe people say, oh, I'm, I'm, I'm loyal, this is what I'm supposed to do. But that doesn't mean you have to, you know, you can't grieve it or feel different feelings about it other than, you know, I, I, I just, I just have to do this. It's, it's like, it's more complex than that. Speaker 2: Agreed. It is more complex than that. And you need to grant yourself the grace to understand that. Speaker 1: Yeah. Wow. What, how have you changed in, in, in taking care of these folks that you've loved or you've cared for being an elder law, um, specialist Now? What, what, I mean, how have you changed Kathy? Speaker 2: Um, I, Speaker 1: Being an author, a speaker. Speaker 2: . Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah, I've changed my career. That's for one. Um, honestly, this is, I don't know if this is terrible or not. Some part of me, it, my, my psychological part of me says it probably is, but I, I've actually become kind of a tough love caregiver in a lot of ways. Mm. Speaker 1: You mentioned that Speaker 2: The, the empathy is great, but the practicality is hard. And it's okay for you to recognize that and, and to have expectations of others. Not the person that you're caring for, the person who should be helping you, the person, you know, even your partner. Um, it's okay to have expectations of others. And I think I often when I'm teaching that, that often becomes a question. Um, you know, but my mom won't talk about this or I can't, she won't go to the doctor or whatever. And I'm like, you, you have two choices. You can take the tough love perspective that this is what we're going to do if I'm gonna be your helper, or you can tell them that they will have to suffer the consequences of that action. And you have to be okay with that. Yeah. So, wow, tough love caregiving is hard. Mm-hmm. . But it might be harder to be super empathetic and not allow yourself to realize that sometimes the person you're caring for also has to take the consequences of their Speaker 1: Actions. And it's really, I what comes to mind is sort of the age old. You, you have to parent your parents kind of thing. Mm-hmm. that one of the points, for example you made in the book was if there's a paid caregiver and your parent is being demeaning to them or saying things that aren't appropriate, that you have to say, you know, it's better to say, mom, you can't talk to Jane like that. Right. Or you, you need to apologize for what you just said, or Yes, that's not appropriate. Jane will leave and we really like Jane, and Jane does a good idea. Yes. Jane does a good, uh, job with you and for you and, and we can talk out what you don't like about Jane, but you know, talk about it with me. And then maybe if we need to make another agreement with Jane, that's one thing, but don't play out your, whatever is going on with you and, and say things to Jane that, that aren't helpful. Speaker 2: The other thing, and that's so important. Yes. The, the other thing that I'd like to bring up that I have changed, not changed my viewpoint amount, but have, have really put into practice and want more women, especially to do this, is get paid for your caregiving. Yes. If your parents would pay Jane, they should pay you. Right. Especially if you don't have Jane coming, if you are doing all of it. And if you are taking a f, especially if you're taking a financial hit, if you have, you know, gone from full-time to part-time work, if you have quit your job to take care of them, if you moved into their house and got rid of your apartment or you're paying rent over there, but living with them, if you are taking a financial hit and they have assets, they should pay you. And you get a signed paid caregiver agreement to protect all the parties. Speaker 2: But that's really important. There are far too many unpaid family caregivers who can and should be paid. And we are recycling this, this, uh, women get to the point then in their lives where they have no retirement, they have no right savings. They have no, because they stepped out of the workforce to be a caregiver 1, 2, 3, 7, 9 times, right? Mm-hmm. mm-hmm. . And there are even me ways to pay someone if your parents have no assets and Medicaid will pay, they will pay family caregivers. There are lots of organizations that have cropped up. Again, I said, do things change in the last two to five years that are now making sure you can get paid as a family caregiver. So, so that's the other thing that I, I have learned and I have changed my mind about that. Yes, this is great to be about love, but there's nothing wrong with getting paid. Speaker 1: Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm wonderful point and very important point. So, well, after six years, I'm really glad we finally had this conversation. It feels Speaker 2: Two more great. Speaker 1: Like it's a little bit different a conversation than we would've had six years ago. So Speaker 2: Very much yes. Speaker 1: That's, um, that's to everyone's benefit I think. So I thank you so much. How can people get in touch with you to speak or to teach or, um, just Speaker 2: To, so yeah, so if you're in a workplace, in a corporate workplace, that would be awesome to have me come in and help teach your, your team about not only caregiving, but what benefits you may have at work that you're not using to help caregivers. And that what you could bring into work. Uh, if you want to just, you know, look at my books Kathy Sikorski and see my name on the screen there. Just type that in. I come up for the first three pages on Google, but I'm on Amazon, so all my books are available on Amazon. And my website, which is being recreated as we speak, um, is kathy sikorsky.com. Um, and that's c a t h y s i k o r s k i kathy sikorsky.com. Um, and anytime you have a question, Kathy sikorski kathy dot sikorski gmail.com, you are free to email me. I love to interact with people who have questions and I will answer them as best I can and guide you to the resources that can really help you. Speaker 1: Kathy, I admire you so much. Thank you very, very much. And you are really funny. So, and Speaker 2: You told me about Speaker 1: That, that it's so important to keep your sense of humor. Speaker 2: Please. You guys, you gotta laugh about this cause it's, it's, first of all, it's a laugh worthy and second of all, if you're not laughing, you're doing something else. You don't wanna do Speaker 1: . You know, my dad used to say, uh, cuz he just infirmity after infirmity after disease after problem. He looked at me one time when he was about 81 or two and he said, you know, Margaret, God's not supposed to give you more than you can bear, but I gotta talk to God because he's way overestimating my abilities. . Speaker 2: Yes. I'm on your dad's side. Yeah. Speaker 1: If Speaker 2: He, if he ever figured out how to do that conversation, you should put that out there, Speaker 1: . Well, I'm not sure he did, but , thank you so, so Speaker 2: Very much. So great to spend time with you. I really loved it. Speaker 1: Yeah, me too. Bye. Bye.  

Retirement can come with a lot of tax questions and concerns. From understanding the tax implications of withdrawing from your retirement accounts to minimizing taxes on investment income, it can be overwhelming. On today's episode, we'll break down the top ten tax questions retirees are asking in 2023. Before you file your 2022 taxes and plan ahead for the rest of the year, make sure to listen to this episode as we'll discuss some important tax questions that retirees should ask themselves to ensure they're making the most of their retirement savings and minimizing their tax burden. Important Links Website: http://www.yourplanningpros.com Call: 844-707-7381 ----more---- Transcript Of Today's Show: Speaker 1: Welcome into another edition of Plan With The Tax Man with Tony Mauro and myself, here to talk about the top 10 tax questions for retirees, 10 or so, somewhere in that neighborhood, for 2023. I mean, hey, it makes sense to go ahead and have this conversation with Tony. It's Plan With The Tax Man for Pete's sake. We got to get into that conversation with him. Tony is a CPA and a CFP, an EA of 27 plus years in the industry. We're going to go through this. Right of fact, it's right in the middle of tax time. We're taping this on Valentine's Day. Hopefully everybody has a good Valentine's Day. It is getting ready for tax time, but Tony, let's break down a few of the top questions and just help folks with a few things to think about to get themselves ready for not just the annual tax prep, but also the actual year long tax planning and things as we move further through retirement, not just the history look of that thing. How you doing my friend?   Tony Mauro: I've been doing good. You say Valentine's Day today and-   Speaker 1: That's right.   Tony Mauro: Got a lot of people coming in, dropping off their taxes. Now that everybody's starting to get most of their documents, their focus is-   Speaker 1: Oh yeah.   Tony Mauro: And of course we just had the Super Bowl. With all the ads on the Super Bowl, everybody's thinking about it now all the sudden.   Speaker 1: Yeah. True. Very true.   Tony Mauro: Busy.   Speaker 1: And in what you do, because you have both sides of the coin really, because you are a financial planner as well as a CPA, you look at really this stuff through multiple lenses, which I think is a nice benefit as well. And tax prep is that annual thing, but most CPAs look at, that's history, right? It's like the year-   Tony Mauro: That's right.   Speaker 1: That was. Whereas I think working with someone who does financial planning and the CPA, they're not only taking care of the past year, but they're really looking at how things are going to affect future years. So let's dive in, talk about some of that from that aspect. Let you give us, 'cause there's a lot of them here so we'll see how many we can get through, but tax implications of withdrawing money is number one from different accounts. This is important because we talk about bucket strategies. People are used to hearing that. Well there's also kind of tax bucket strategies if you will.   Tony Mauro: Yeah there is and all of these things we're going to talk about I would caveat right off the bat is to make sure, especially as a retiree, you're talking to your advisor, whether it be your financial advisor, your tax advisor, or both.   Speaker 1: Right.   Tony Mauro: 'Cause all of this really can affect your taxes negatively if done improperly, which I have seen a lot, but taking money out of retirement plans, the IRS doesn't make it easy for us 'cause they have different rules for almost everything.   Speaker 1: Right.   Tony Mauro: And depending on which type of retirement plan you take it out of, for example, say you're starting to pull money out of your 401k and it's just a traditional 401k, that money's never been taxed. So that's going to be added to your taxable income, which you're probably not going to have any penalties on it if you're above 59 and a half, but you want to make sure that you're not just blanketly pulling a bunch of money out and then you've got other money coming in as well and all the sudden you got a huge tax bill. That's the other thing. A lot of this leads to surprises at tax time if not done properly. So you have to pay attention to that 'cause the 401ks are different than the roths. They're different from just pulling money out of a taxable type of investment account, things like that. All of this should be taken into account with some tax planning.   Speaker 1: Well how you, and where you, pull money from is going to affect number two, which is social security benefits being taxed. People still get very confused by this. So can you explain to us some of the rules on this, on how it works because this is a thing. It can happen.   Tony Mauro: It can happen and a lot of people get confused on them reducing your social security versus taxing your social security. And so if you are full retirement age, and it depends on all of us now or depending on when you were born, but once you're full retirement age, they can't reduce your benefits, but they can and will tax it depending on how much other income you have coming in from other sources like we just talked about in number one or maybe you're still working, things like that. So what happens is is in a nutshell, if you make a little too much money from other sources, then all the sudden they have this kind of backdoor tax, they start taxing your social security. They're not taking your social security, it's just like income. They're just taxing it. The tax is not 100%. So it isn't like you're being robbed completely, but it does make a difference because a lot of people aren't withholding anything from their social security benefits. And then if they add it to their income, then all of the sudden, again, they have that surprise tax bill and they're asking us, "Well, hey, what happened?" And then we say, "Well your social security, part of it's being taxed or they can tax all the way up to 85% of it."   Speaker 1: Yeah.   Tony Mauro: Again, people get confused, "Oh, my God. My tax rate's 85%." No. They're just taxing 85% of the benefit at whatever your tax rate is.   Speaker 1: Right. And so it's based on income. So how you're pulling money out of your other retirement accounts. So there's ways to be strategic so that we're not getting too crazy and not hitting that highest number on social security, right?   Tony Mauro: That's correct. There's different ways to pull money out and then at least fill up certain, well we call them tax brackets or buckets because-   Speaker 1: Yeah.   Tony Mauro: Unfortunately for us, there isn't just one tax rate. For every filing status there's five to seven. And so it's very easy to jump into the next one and then get a bunch of money taxed at a little higher rate. So-   Speaker 1: Yeah.   Tony Mauro: That's where the planning comes in is trying to maximize that.   Speaker 1: Yeah. I think most people still get confused by that too. If you're, let's say, in the 22% tax bracket, not every dollar you have coming in is at 22%.   Tony Mauro: It's not.   Speaker 1: It's incremental. Yeah.   Tony Mauro: Yeah. It's incremental. And so you got your marginal tax rate, which is the tax on the next dollar you receive. And then your effective tax rate's kind of the average. But even for somebody that's single, let's say, the top 22% rate's about 89,000 for '22, but anything over that, any dollar over that, then everything's 24 and then it jumps all the way up to 32.   Speaker 1: Yeah.   Tony Mauro: So it can get taxi in a hurry.   Speaker 1: Yeah. Gets heavy. Yeah. It starts to hurt.   Tony Mauro: Yeah.   Speaker 1: All right. Number three, taxation of pension. Is that different at all? Is there anything for folks to think about there or know there?   Tony Mauro: Well, again, it's a technical thing depending on what type of pension you have.   Speaker 1: And some states waive this, right? Depending on where you live, yeah.   Tony Mauro: Iowa now on the state level is not taxing pension income for retirees. Yeah. They just passed this, by the way, for '23 and beyond. I think it's a way to, because they always tax retiree income before maybe to try to keep people here in their retired years. But, some of it though is even taxable at the federal level. For a lot of our big pension, which here is IPERS, some of distribution is taxable at the federal level and some of it is exempt. And of course that's up to IPERS. They figure all that out for you, but if some of it's taxable at the federal level, again, you've got that same deal of now all the sudden we got to make sure that we're not getting a tax surprise and we don't have enough withheld from our pension incomes.   Speaker 1: Okay. All right. Number four, the Secure Act, the first time, and also the Secure Act 2.0 passing. Anything there that could affect income and taxes? Obviously they moved the RMD age so it does-   Tony Mauro: RMDs, yeah.   Speaker 1: Give you a little bit of wiggle room for some other strategizing. Anything there you want to enlighten us on?   Tony Mauro: Well, I've been talking to a lot of people about the RMDs with the Secure Act, which I think for a lot of my clients really is going to benefit them 'cause a lot of them don't really need or want to start taking the money out. And so if they can postpone it, I think that's an advantage, truly of course. I think too though, they've changed some things with the Roths and some incentives to participate, but as far as retirees go, I talk to them mostly about possibly deferring some of this and keeping it growing a little bit longer if they can.   Speaker 1: Yeah. I know there's lots of different little things in there. So it's certainly wise to. And since the Secure Act 2.0 is still pretty new and they're still trying to decipher a ton of what they put in there, it's certainly worth making sure that you talk with your financial professional and CPA as to anything that might change for your scenario. Any special tax deductions or credits that are available for retirees at all?   Tony Mauro: Well, they are and backing up to the Secure Act, I think we were talking about last time possibly doing a podcast on that 2.0 Later in March, April, once kind of some of this dust settles.   Speaker 1: Yeah, we can do that.   Tony Mauro: It can get technical, but we don't want to get too far off in the weeds with it, but something to think about, but tax deductions or credits for retirees, there are some. The tax deductions, of course, a lot of retirees, depending on what their other income is, they have a lot of out-of-pocket medical. They are paying for a lot of supplemental health insurance that we see, at least in our client base, is enough to trigger deductibility on some of that. So we always tell them to make sure that they're keeping track of that, where the younger people, they can't get over the thresholds very much. There's those. There's some credits if you're disabled. Oh, of course if you're blind and things like that that you might be able to take advantage of. Again, if you're even remotely asking, I wouldn't be afraid to ask your advisor. It doesn't matter if you think it's kind of ridiculous. There could be some deductibility there. So I would definitely ask if you've got some kind of situation.   Speaker 1: Yeah. And they increased the standard deduction, correct, for '22?   Tony Mauro: They did again based on inflation here, just looking at that. For married filing joint now it's up to 25,900. You do get an additional 1,404 if you're 65 or older. So that kind of bumps it up a little bit for you too.   Speaker 1: Gotcha.   Tony Mauro: It's theirs and same way with being blind, but I think the biggest thing that we see besides that of course would be the medical for most of them. Another one too, I don't even know if it's on our list. Let me look down. Yeah it is. It's actually number eight, but we could talk about it a little bit 'cause a lot of retirees like to make contributions to charity. It seems like moreso than maybe the younger people. And so I always encourage them to keep track of that, both cash and non-cash because-   Speaker 1: Yeah.   Tony Mauro: They do add up and a lot of them are very, very charitable.   Speaker 1: Yeah. Tax benefits for charitable contributions also. QCDs, which could help you with your RMD, satisfying that goal. So yeah. That was going to be on the list so that's good you touched on that one as well. So that's certainly something you could look at. How about moving? So that's another one to consider. So maybe if you're getting close to retirement or maybe this is the year you were going to retire and you're considering, or maybe it's next year, and you're considering moving, I don't know if I would let the ultimate decision be that I'm moving to, let's say, Florida just because the tax is different. I'd be going because I'm cold and the tax is different.   Tony Mauro: Right. And the tax. It's an added bonus.   Speaker 1: It's an added bonus, but it is something to consider.   Tony Mauro: It is. And again, Iowa is now, of course I've been here all my life, but now all the sudden it's a little more attractive as a retiree, other than the cold, is that you've got this non-taxability of retirement benefits, which for most retirees, it's like a state like Florida. Now the difference is any earned income in Iowa, if you're retired, you're still going to pay taxes on that. Whereas Florida and some of these states with no state income tax don't have that. So again, you got to kind of take a look, weigh all the options there.   Speaker 1: Okay.   Tony Mauro: Because I don't know. A lot of retirees in Iowa, they kind of just work for what I call mad money to have, and here that still is taxable, but without having their retirement income taxable and social security now they're still kind of elated, but it is important.   Speaker 1: Yeah.   Tony Mauro: Yeah.   Speaker 1: Yeah. Something to factor in there. I think they're going to get their dollars one way or another. You think it's like, "Hey, I'm moving to this state 'cause there's no income tax," but it may have a higher cost of living or it may have different kinds of things. A friend of mine moved to Colorado and he's like, "Wow. I can't believe how expensive it is out here." And it's just some of the little things that he was surprised by like tagging his vehicle and the insurance on the car. There's massive difference versus his prior state. So always little things to consider in there. Let's see. We're talking about charitable contributions. What about gifting money? Any tax considerations there if you want to gift money to kids or grandkids?   Tony Mauro: Yeah. This is an area another, just like social security, I think with a lot of confusion. People always ask, "How much can I gift to my kids without paying income tax?" And I say, "Well, if you really want to know, the threshold's extremely high," because they kind of confuse the gift tax exemption every year, which I believe is like 16,000, but I got to refer to my charts-   Speaker 1: I think it is. Yeah. I think it's either 16 or 17 that you can give per person. Yeah.   Tony Mauro: Yeah. So I tell them, I said, "Well, you can gift that much per person to avoid the have to file a gift tax return." But all the gift tax return really is is a filing of the return telling the government that you used up a little bit of your lifetime exemption, which I believe is for a married filing joint about 22 million.   Speaker 1: Yeah. It's crazy high right now. Yeah.   Tony Mauro: It's very, very high. And considering, yeah. Here it is. I finally found it. So the gift tax for '22 is 16, '23 it's 17,000 that is. So for most, what we tell them is that if you and your wife want to gift your son and his wife say money, you each could gift them, each one of them, 16,000 or 17,000, it's 34 a piece. So you're talking about a lot of money. A lot of people can't gift that much-   Speaker 1: Right. Yeah. That's pretty hefty. Yeah.   Tony Mauro: In one year. But even if you go over that, you've got some farmland or something like that, you want to gift them $200,000, you're not going to pay any gift tax on it. We just have to file a return to keep in the good graces of the government and tell them you used that much, but-   Speaker 1: This could be a nice future strategy though, Tony, if you're looking to bring down your complete total net worth because of, let's say, because of RMDs, because of maybe converting money or just reducing the estate size overall, if that's part of the strategy, this could be a nice way to do a little bit of that too.   Tony Mauro: It is. If you've got somebody with enough of an estate to possibly have estate taxes later on, the gifting and using the annual exclusion amount is a great idea along with some other things 'cause you got to get some of this money out of your estate in order to escape that and a lot of people are very content with just gifting the exemption amount every year.   Speaker 1: Yeah. There you go.   Tony Mauro: At least trying to get it out of there.   Speaker 1: Right. Okay. We talk about individuals a lot. Sometimes we should do probably more for businesses considering you are a business, but any tax things to discuss real fast for small, maybe not even a business, but maybe retirees who go into a small or a side hustle. So they're in a retirement and maybe they're selling paintings or they're selling arts and crafts that they've made. Whatever tax ramifications you'd like to share with us from a small business or side hustle kind of thing.   Tony Mauro: I would say for small business, I would keep it simple. I wouldn't go into incorporating things like that unless all of the sudden really started taking off. A lot of people confuse doing something for a hobby with trying to make money and have a profit motive. In other words, they'll come in and say, "Well I've got this business. Here's all my expenses." And we say, "Well, where's the income?" "Well I don't make any money." And I say, "Well, where's the sales?" "Well I don't even sell anything." "Well that's a hobby. You can't deduct that." So you got to have a profit motive. Not to say you can't lose money.   Speaker 1: Right.   Tony Mauro: And you can deduct that against other income, which is good. So if you are doing a side hustle, keep good records to see if you're making money or losing money. Obviously if you're losing money, it's a great tax deduction, but eventually if you're losing money, that's money going out the door.   Speaker 1: Right.   Tony Mauro: You certainly don't want to do that forever. But on the flip side, income-wise, it's going to be taxed and you will pay into social security, believe it or not, even if you're 75, 80 years old, you got to pay back in, which a lot of retirees don't like. You can escape it though with passive income like rentals.   Speaker 1: Okay. And speaking of, final one here, the number 10, any tax issues to discuss if you are looking, obviously a lot of people, the housing market went kind of crazy definitely last year. There was still a lot of things pretty high. Maybe if you sold your primary residence or something like that. Anything to consider or ponder?   Tony Mauro: Well I think the tax ramifications, here in Iowa for the most part, it may not be the same in some of the higher priced cities, but you can, for married filing joint, if you've lived in the home for the last five years, it's your primary residence, you can exclude up to $500,000 of capital gain before you have to start paying any long-term capital gains, which is still taxed better than income tax rates, but in Iowa, most people aren't making a $500,000 gain. And so they can get out of their home and take that gain and, well they can do whatever they want with it. The problem is now as prices are going up, when they move into something else, they kind of end up rolling the whole thing into something new, but at least you didn't pay tax. But, like you were saying though, if you're downsizing, that's when it's better. I sell my home for 700,000 and I paid 250 way back when-   Speaker 1: Right.   Tony Mauro: And all the sudden I got a $450,000 gain and I can go out, I got 700,000, and I can go out and buy something smaller for 350. Yeah. That extra money could go in my pocket and never pay taxes on it, which is a nice deal. That's been around, I don't know, maybe 10, 15, 20 years now, but that never used to be the case. You always had to pay tax when you sold something.   Speaker 1: Okay. So a lot of little things to think about. Again, it's all part of strategizing for just not only the past year, but also future years into retirement. So as usual, if you've got some questions and you need some help when it comes to how to get a tax strategy, to get a retirement strategy in place, make sure that you're reaching out to a qualified professional like Tony and his team. They are Des Moines Professional Alternative, excuse me, at Tax Dr. Inc. And you can find them online at yourplanningpros.com. That's yourplanningpros.com.   Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast Plan With The Tax Man on Apple, Google, Spotify, all that good stuff. And again, if you need some help, reach out to tony at yourplanningpros.com. Buddy, thanks for your time. Appreciate you.   Tony Mauro: Yeah.   Speaker 1: I'm going to let you go 'cause it is Valentine's Day, so I hope you guys have a great day.   Tony Mauro: All right. You guys do the same. Let's talk to you soon.   Speaker 1: We'll see you next time right here on Plan With The Tax Man, with Tony Mauro.   Disclaimer: Securities offered through Avantax Investment ServicesSM. Member FINRA, S.I.P.C. Investment advisory services offered through Avantax Advisory Services. Insurance services offered through an Avantax affiliated insurance agency.

EMF radiation exposure & our kids' digital devices is the topic of this interview with Defendershield founder, Dan DeBaun. Tune in to hear his top tips and tools!   Check out all that Defendershield has to offer for your kiddo HERE!!   Download my free Parenting in the Digital Age Resource guide! CLICK HERE or go to this link: https://www.dollydenson.com/digitalresources and be sure to opt in to my email list to be the first to know when my Be THAT Mom Movement Method course, your toolkit and roadmap for all things digital when raising kids today, is released!!    Check out the DIGITAL WELLNESS SUMMIT:  GRAB YOUR ALL ACCESS PASS HERE!! FREE DOWNLOAD: Tips for using Bark + Digital Resources FREE DOWNLOAD: Digital Resources For all my top tips & tools go to https://www.dollydenson.com/store DIGITAL RESOURCE TOOLS:   Grab your Troomi phone today! Click here or use code BETHATMOM at https://troomi.com/ to grab $30 off your kid's Troomi phone!  BARK subscription CLICK HERE (Use code BETHATMOM for 20% off & 7 day free trial) MSpy CLICK HERE (Use code BTMOM10 for a 10% discount on the 3 month package!) Pinwheel phone CLICK HERE (use code BETHATMOMTEN for a discount!) Gabb phone CLICK HERE (use code BETHATMOM for a discount) Tick Talk Watch CLICK HERE (use code BETHATMOM for a discount) Covenant Eyes CLICK HERE (use code BETHATMOM for a discount) Gryphon Router CLICK HERE  Circle Plus CLICK HERE (click link for $20 off) Bark Home CLICK here!! Stay connected with the Be THAT Mom Movement via our channel in the Telegram app: Subscribe HERE or search for @bethatmom on the app. Or on social media via instagram https://www.instagram.com/the_bethatmommovement  MOM WELLNESS TOOLS: Fit Club info: Being THAT mom isn't easy, so prioritizing our own wellness is so important! Get tips and tools plus support to help you simplify and align your health/wellness through fitness & nutrition tools that will get you results and to be strong and energetic for your kids! For more info on these tools & the Align Your Life Fit Club, CLICK HERE!!  Have a fitness routine that works for you but need to level up your nutrition? Ensure you get your daily nutrition with the powerful and unmatched smoothie called Shakeology CLICK HERE to learn more. (Available by itself or combined with what I like to call the Netflix for fitness/wellness library. CLICK HERE for the top options that save you $$$ when getting started with ALL the tools to get you that crucial momentum to make this a routine that sticks!) 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These products are game changers for clearing out the unwanted things and getting your immune system in tip top shape!  Paleovalley CLICK HERE (use code PVFRIEND15 for a discount) My Soul CBD CLICK HERE (use code BETHATMOM for a discount) MitoLife supplements CLICK HERE (use code BETHATMOM for a discount) Magnesium Bicarbonate supplement by LIVE PRISTINE (the majority are deficient in magnesium AND if taking Magnesium, are taking a form other than this that is not bioavailable and readily absorbed!) Use code BETHATOM for a discount! CLICK HERE  MOM HUSTLE TOOLS: Kajabi: The best platform to run your business with all the things in one place! CLICK HERE Podcast Pro University CLICK HERE to learn more about the top podcast course, created by Stef Gass, that will help you take that idea and passion to the next level with a podcast of your own! Health/Wellness Coach opportunity!! Focus on your own wellness through fitness/nutrition while inviting a few friends to join you and/or build your own brand as a wellness coach with Team Beachbody: Email me at dolly@dollydenson.com for more info! Full Transcription:  Speaker 1 (00:00): So the topic of my podcast is often about how to help you be proactive as a mom when giving your kids digital things and helping to guide them in that world. That is what the podcast is founded on and what it's all about. Well, today's episode, we are going to go into another realm of this whole thing around the digital stuff that I've never dived into before. And I'm so excited to bring you an expert in this field to help you get on the top of this too. All right. So stay tuned. Speaker 2 (00:36): Welcome to your source for tips, tools, and support to help you be that mom that is tuned in and proactive for yourself, your family, and for the wild ride of raising kids in this digital age, inspired by a mother's love with a relatable real life. Proud to be that mom flare. This is the be that mom movement with your host, Dolly Denson. Speaker 1 (01:00): Hey friends, did you hear there is an app that will transform the safety of your kids' smartphone and technology use. It is my favorite way to sleep easy at night and have peace of mind because it is monitoring my kids' activity online without me being in their business. It is the bark app and yes, bark like a dog bark bark bark. It tells you when there's something that you need to be concerned about. Start at a small fee each month. You can protect your whole family across all devices. Get connected with bark today. Use code, be that mom for 20% off your subscription for life and get a seven day free trial to check it out. Okay. So today I am so excited to bring you an interview or a conversation that I had with an expert in the field, around the exposure of our kids, to what our devices are putting off. Speaker 1 (01:51): I'm talking about how they communicate with the world and get all of their information that has to come from somewhere. And when it is collecting information, we are inadvertently being expos to electromagnetic frequency radiation. So today I am talking to the founder of defender shield. His name is Daniel Debaun, and he is an internationally recognized expert in EMF, radiation, EMF, shielding, and EMF related health issues with a special focus on the effect of exposure from mobile devices, such as laptops, tablets, and cell phones. His concern regarding the health impact of EMF emissions grew from over 30 years of engineering experience in telecommunications industry, he has had a variety of executive positions in multiple large businesses, such at and T and bell labs in various other things. He's been the co-author of a book called radiation nation, the fallout of modern technology. And he is the CEO of defender shield, which is the world leader in EMF radiation protection solutions. Speaker 1 (03:00): So I'm so very excited to invite him onto the podcast today. He shares so much valuable information to help you take these nuggets and use them for your kids. Like seriously, make sure you listen to this entire interview and in our convers, and at the end, he gives some very useful nuggets, very useful tips that you can take today to help make sure that your kid is minimizing their exposure to the things that our devices are inadvertently putting out, whether we are aware of it or not. Okay. I hope you find this so very valuable. I absolutely did, and I am so very excited to bring it to you. So stay tuned. All Speaker 3 (03:45): Right. So I am so excited today to be talking to Dan with defender shield, and I am really kind of amazed that I have not explored this topic on my podcast yet, and it's very important. So I'm have you here today. Dan, tell me a little bit about yourself and what brought you to this space. Speaker 4 (04:04): Well, Dolly, thanks so much for inviting me. I'm excited to chat with your, uh, your listening audience, uh, about a subject that's really fairly controversial and really understood. And so we have an opportunity today to sort of chat about that, to help people understand this space. I started in telecommunications 30, 40 years ago. I, I actually wrote the technical standards and, and did the testing on telecommunications equipment for years and years and years. So about 10 years or so, 15, maybe close to 15. Now my sons were visiting me. They had their laptops on their, my wife says that can't be good for you. I want grandchildren. And she was implying that there was an emission coming from a, from a laptop that, that, um, affected the male sperm. Um, and I said, look, I've been doing this stuff for many, many years. There's no way the power levels are gonna have any sort of impact to the human body. Speaker 4 (05:05): But then I thought about it a tiny bit. I had never looked at the research side of, uh, the medical research side about these kind of exposures. And even back then, Dolly, it was true that after three or four hours, it's potentially true up to 25 per center of the mill sperm became became immobile. So we, we knew from that study work, that it, it actually can affect you. And then of course, other data that I was stumbling, of course, stuff I've never looked at before seemed to verify that there are potential concerns that we should have as parents and users of these technologies. I built a laptop shield for my sons, cuz I'm actually a mechanical engineer. Although I'm an industry, I spent an electrical world and I built a shielding device for my kids. And um, by the way, Dolly, I, I still don't have grandchildren, but uh, , that was the whole purpose of starting this journey. so that's how I got started. And, and, and once I had a device to protect, I started building other devices that were sort of using the same technology I had and then, and my son and I wrote a book radiation and the purpose of it was so people could read it and, and sort of make decisions about, about this controversial space themselves. So that's actually how I got started. Speaker 3 (06:30): Uh, it's really interesting. And isn't it crazy that it's kind of like we won't have anything on our radar until someone makes a comment or, or, you know, just kind of spikes your interest on something and then it takes you down a rabbit hole of exploring that a little bit. Oh yeah. Speaker 4 (06:43): I mean, I used to worry about electronics interfering with electronics. I never worried about electronics interfering with the human body, but after my wife's comment, she had an intuition which is actually pretty accurate and it did start a journey that, uh, didn't intend, but certainly have embraced over the last 10 years. Speaker 3 (07:03): Yeah. Yeah. Wow. That's amazing. So your book is called radiation nation. The fallout of modern technology is that like on Amazon Barnes and noble, those type of places. Speaker 4 (07:12): Yeah. Amazon it's like one of the best sells on Amazon. Uh, it's like interesting how, you know, um, there this, he hemp up interest in trying to understand this space and we wrote the book that, that, that was really intended to try to let people understand what it is, what science says, so they can make their own choices and, and it's been fairly successful fortunately for us. Speaker 3 (07:39): That's awesome. So kind of to, as a baseline, just if you can explain, like in layman's terms, what, like, for someone, you know, I hear things about 5g and I'm like, is that 5g in my phone? Is it 5g someplace else? Like just an understanding for the general public, what should we know about like EMF, electro magnetic, frequency, radiation, and 5g and all of that. Speaker 4 (08:04): Okay. So my wife was commenting on the laptop that my sons were using and it was the wifi. It's the connection to the router. That is a transmitter and it is being transmitted from the, a laptop to the router. And it's a power, there's a certain amount of power being trans. You can't see it, you can't smell it, you can't touch it, but it's actually there and it's making a connection. And, and so when you have a device like that, what it transmits out of the device in all directions within that room and keeps on going into the other rooms, those can go up to almost 2000 feet. It's fairly, they can go fairly far and it's called an omnidirectional signal. It goes every way you are using it. Well, that's true for, uh, cell phones, tablets, anything that's using Bluetooth, wifi or cell tower connections are transmitting power with a cell phone. Speaker 4 (09:07): You have the generations of cell phones, the first, second, third, and fourth generation. And then as you pointed out, you have a fifth generation, the fourth generation up to the fourth generation, those signals that you use for your cell phone, they can go actually up to five miles. So there's enough power to get five miles and it's going in all directions. And, and so that's the fundamental characteristics of technology today, and we're putting it very, very close to our body. And then here comes 5g, which is fifth generation next generation technology, which what's really interesting about that. Dotty, it's not introducing a lot of it is not introducing new connections from a cell phone to a cell tower. A lot of it are all what's referred to as sub gigahertz. It's like the speeds are not that fast. Uh, but, uh, uh, the speed of the frequency rate is, is around one gigahertz. Speaker 4 (10:08): It's, it's a, a, um, a wave that moves in the air and, and it's moving at a rate of one gigahertz, um, roughly, um, three feet in milliseconds and it gets to the cell tower with 5g. The other part, which is really the more controversial part of it is that there's new rates that are being introduced much, much higher speeds. And that's where science is getting pretty concerned because we've never had these really, really, really fair speeds in our environment. And that's really what you hear about in the controversial space. Most of what you have in the 5g today is not out there is, is the stuff we've seen all along is coming out of our cell phones, no different than it has been in the past, but it's when it's the small cell site, the, the cell tower right in front of your house, that's about 15 feet high or less. And it's transmitting at much, much higher, fast 23, giggers, uh, 60 gig it's 90 gigahertz. They're really, really fast rates. And that's where the controversial lies that is producing broadband services to the house at speeds, UN uh, haven't been available in the marketplace and now is, and that's where the controversial lies. Speaker 3 (11:33): Okay. Wow. So that's interesting. That makes it makes sense more. So what are the, you mentioned the thing about the sperm count, what are the health effects and the things that are known Speaker 4 (11:43): Over? So it varies substantially some research scientists that do the work, talk about the danger potentially can lead to, uh, cell damage D DNA damage cell damage, and Dr. Powell, for example, or Paul, however you wanna announce it. He talks about the cell breaking down and becoming potentially a tumor or a non-cancerous or cancerous tumor. That is the been reinforced by study work for the national toxicity program, which is the federal government study coup several years ago, with 25 million they spent, and they found that the epidemiology study that found frontal lobe cancer and heart cancers related to ex exposures, statistically significant changes. In other words, the populations were big enough that we could conclude from the epidemiology study, that there could potentially be that danger with that kind of exposure valley. Those are the, uh, those are the most extreme, uh, and, and are not the things so much. Speaker 4 (12:56): We find in the human body with kind of exposures every day. However, something like 20% of us or so were actually impacted in very different ways. There could be neurological impacts, physiological tingling, a of the eyes, uh, ring, uh, the tinnitus, the ringing in the ears. You may be tired, depressed, fatigued. You may have memory loss. So these are varying degrees of exposure, which influences the, the body. And in fact, some argue like in the classroom, there's so much wifi in the classroom today that it it's like millions of, um, of times more than it was 50 years ago. And, and that constant increased invisible power level in the classroom is, uh, potentially impacting, uh, our kids. Uh, um, and so that's the controversy you hear about that is the power that's found within the classroom. Now that's a constant seven, eight hours that they're exposed and there's, you know, maybe depression, anxiety, stress of independent of the schoolwork that's itself. Speaker 4 (14:12): And, and so there's that kind of thing that impact the human and, and by the way, do believe it or not, it's, it's like more women than men, which science has not been able to, to, uh, define why, but we know that roughly 20% of the human is impacted by the exposures to cell phones and laptops and wifis. And it, it it's, um, a growing component because maybe our environment is growing and, and of that 80% of women that are affected, you know, you may have a headache, uh, all day. And, um, that's because it could be true. You're sitting next to a router all day. So all of a sudden these technologies we have around us, you just have to be aware of those things around you and the potential influences that may have on, on, on you and your kids. Speaker 3 (15:08): So it's not like, um, I mean, it's just kind of like most other things like in moderation and being aware. Speaker 4 (15:15): Yeah. I it's like the world health organization who considers, uh, RF signal the signal from a cell phone to the cell tower as a two B carcinogenic. That, that means that it's a potential cancer. So it's not like the world's avoiding it. They're beginning to understand it. And many argue that it'll become a probable carcinogenic the next round with the hook. So it's not like nothing's happening, but it is a controversial space. And it's more are our environment today. And, and 20% of you are influenced, uh, in a negative way. Speaker 3 (15:58): So interesting and something we just so much need to be aware of as they ramp up the power of our phones and all of that, all you, you know, like before I was aware of all of this, I would just think, oh, wow, a faster phone, you know, remember this and stuff like that. Like, yeah, Speaker 4 (16:14): We're, you know, AEC actually dial, that's a really, really good point. We've had electronics around us for long, long amounts of time. But think of this as only the last five, 10 years, we have all this electronic stuff, you in our pockets, you know, you had a mainframe computer down drive a hundred feet in a building you had that had huge power levels of exposure. It didn't matter because I wasn't in the room now that is in my computer, on my laptop, same power levels, same computing capacity, and it's sitting on my lap. So it, it is, that's why it's sort of, of our, our technology. Our environment is changing along with the technology exposures there's potential impacts to the world health organization. I, I mentioned it's a, a possible carcinogenic. Uh, so is gas when you smell gas, that odor it's a, um, is so an organic material smell and that's considered a two B Cogenic as well. So if you have a wifi in your room and you have a, a gasoline 55 gallon drum gasoline open and spewing the volatile organic compounds into the room, there are equivalent in terms of what the world health organization defines. Speaker 3 (17:35): So really it's just about being aware of it, being an influence, and then being able to kind of have it in moderation and not, you know, always have it, you know, like on your chest or in your pocket or on your lap, that type. So Speaker 4 (17:49): Absolutely does. In fact, giving you a description of it, what would you do? You'd put a top on it and you take the gasoline and you put it in the other room. That's what you'd do. And the same thing with a router. Uh, you, you don't need it in the same room as you are. All you gotta do is figure out what room it can be in. That's relatively safe for your right. Speaker 3 (18:09): Okay. So then let's take this a step further when it comes to kids. So I'm a big proponent of them not having their phones in their bedrooms and all of that. I mean, it's not even the, not just the phones, but like now we have like the Amazon echo devices that they have as their alarm clock in their bedroom and those type of things. So it's really about an awareness that, that does, Haveit something. And so maybe it needs to not be on their nightstand at night and maybe they need to not have it someplace right. All of the time. Speaker 4 (18:41): Okay. So, uh, uh, let's chat a little bit about that. There is a federal communications commission standard. It was generated about 30 years ago, and it's describing what the power of a signal between a, a, a cell phone and a cell tower. So the federal government does define the standard. It was over 30 years ago, and I remind people over 30 years ago, if I had a cell phone, none of my friends had it. So I wasn't very much on it very, very often. So all the transmit power levels were, you know, at that time there wasn't much of it. So that standard sort of was okay, well, the standard was established by the FCC looking at six foot male military. And they established that if a signal penetrates one to two inches and it heated up less than two degrees, the power level would have to be no more than 1.6 Watts. Speaker 4 (19:46): Just remember 1.6 Watts. And, and so, and why heating ? Well, the RF signal that you have from a cell phone is a microwave signal. You know, a microwave works at two, three gigahertz, and a cell phone is about one gigahertz. And when you put a piece of meat in the oven and the, and you turn the microwave on it, it heats up the water between the cells, the cells oscillate, they heat up and therefore cook. Well, that's what the standard prevents in theory, that it can only heat up more than two degrees because it's a thermal signal. Okay. How many people does that represent in our population? About 3%, we have smaller men, smaller women, young kids. They were never exposed to these kinds of things early on in their lives. And all of a sudden your children at six year old are getting a cell phone to call chat with grandma. Speaker 4 (20:46): And so the standard that was developed 30 years ago to protect the user represents protection for about 3% of the population. What does that mean? Well, again, the cell phone standard protects, uh, six foot male from one, two inches penetration into the head us year, old child. It goes completely through their head. There is no resistive path for that signal. Good. Remember it's not object signal. It's not just connecting to the cell tower. It's also going through your head. And so now you have a six foot child, a six, a six year old child. That's using a phone fairly regularly, unlike you and me when we were growing up and it's going completely through. So what's the implication. We really don't know cause phones have not been around that long at this kind of pervasive use. And so the standard is not been updated by the FCC. Speaker 4 (21:43): And it, it, there is a lot of Contra from the medical community and the FCC actually, to the extent, uh, Dolly, that they actually went to, uh, a court. They had an appeals court in Kennedy and, and Dr. Deborah Davis, a couple of scientists, they, they bought a court case to the FCC and the FCC see lost in court because they actually didn't evaluate modern science to understand where it really was and how much impact it really had on the human. So the FCCS been pushed back to look at it. So we know for sure, as I said, it represents 3% of the population, and we have a lot of I, a plethora, thousands and thousands and thousands of studies that show potential concerns. And so even the FCCS been pushed back to start looking at it. So for all of us, all of that means is you have to be aware of what you're using and, and how you're using it. And how much time are you using it and, and know your environment. Speaker 3 (22:51): Oh, very interesting. I mean like the gist of it is there are concerns. We don't know exactly what act, but for a small body and a small child, we know it's not a positive thing most likely. Right. Speaker 4 (23:03): And, and right. We, we don't know. Uh, I mean, honestly don't know, like we were talking about five to G you know, most of 5g is gonna be fine. It's sort of the same as everything, not fine. It's still the same as everything else has been for us, but the stuff in front of your house, that 23 gigahertz, if someone tells you a scientist tells you that it's dangerous, they don't know what they're talking about because there's no studies that characterize what the danger could be or not be. It's just different. If, if you are an informed researcher, you may think there could be comparisons to the current technologies being used to that new, but we really, as you just pointed out, we really don't know. And so that's where question becomes important. Right? Speaker 3 (23:54): So to then tell me what you have created with your company defender shield, as far as like what products you have and how that can help parents out there with devices. Speaker 4 (24:04): Well, I, I mentioned to you about my son's using a device. I created called a defender pad, and it's a bunch of shielding technologies. We put in into a platform to prevent the signals from passing from the device to the human. We have cell phones, shielding devices, we blankets, we have pregnancy, uh, protection. Why do I say pregnancy protection? There are some scientists that say when a, a young woman, 12 years old puts a, a cell phone in her back pocket, the signals strong enough to influence the egg, maybe potentially mutate the egg. And so when a child puts it and, and it, she becomes, uh, married. And once kids, there's a potential for that mutated today to be influenced in the child if a child's born. So there's that kind of concern. And that's why I begin looking for, we know from a study in San Francisco that at high levels of exposure to first trimesters, uh, you are three times more likely to miscarriage in that first trimester with those I elevating, uh, conditions. Speaker 4 (25:20): So you have to be aware of those. And that's why the, the protection for the, uh, for the, uh, pregnant woman, uh, we have pouches, we have, I have earbuds I'm using right now as we are chatting. And I actually created a, uh, a device in which I convert the, the electrical signal and I put it into, uh, an acoustical connection. So I have no emissions at all, uh, at the head level. So that was another one of the devices. Uh, we, we came up with that would, it's not much, let's put it this way. When you have a, a cell phone directly to your head, a as we we've talked about it, there's a potential that it can influence the frontal lobe cells. If you have it, one who feet away, 80% of that danger is gone by four foot, 98% is gone. So we have devices when you choose to pick something close to your body, but you don't need it close to your body. Speaker 4 (26:21): If you are taking a, a cell phone and you put it four foot or more away, a laptop, four foot, or more way, you are actually fairly safe. And, and it turns out that if you have a laptop, not in your lap, on your desk and you use to need the net connection to it, you really don't need any device protection, because all you're doing is moving that signal. That would be the wifi signal to the router, and you're eliminating it by connecting it. So there are ways of mitigating potential dangers by simply managing your environment. In fact, Dolly, I often talk about it as, uh, bees in the room. If you are aware of where the bees are, they're the transmitting power levels, and you begin turning them off or moving them away. You reduce exposure in general, one B won't kill you a thousand will. Speaker 4 (27:15): And all you have to do is think about where those bees are in the room and just turn 'em off and move 'em away. And you're pretty safe, very actually by simple management of your time. Another thing is, it's not just, um, the closeness, uh, how close you are to the device. It's how much you use the device. If you are using a, a device, a couple of minutes a day, a cell phone, till you had a couple minutes a day, it was unlikely that it'll ever impact you. If you are using it heavily more than an hour to two every day in 10 years, you are two to three times more likely to have frontal cancer, believe it or not. And so the duration of use of the technology is also important. So let me get back to other of things we have, we have blankets that are for, for moms that wanted actually, it was a baby blanket originally, but well, a lot of adults choose it, believe it or not. We have the earbuds adult headset, uh, headset to that are acoustical pouches, blankets, uh, devices that you can, we have a whole bunch of products, all designed to protect you. If you choose to have a device next close to your body for an extended period of Speaker 3 (28:34): Time. Okay. I love that kind of that summary in your, um, points about being four feet or more away connecting laptop to an ethernet cable and than the duration that you're using, the, the device, those are three really good things that parents can use as a strategy for mitigating the exposure. Right? Um, in addition to the tools that you, that Speaker 4 (28:58): Val, let's say, you're taking your child in a stroll, in a stroller, don't put your cell phone in the back of the divide of this stroller. That's close to your child's head. So keep it in your, not near your, your body, but in your, as a wallet or in, in your, anywhere other than the child's back. So that's a simple thing you can do and keep the child protected. And you still have the device available in, in, uh, to be used when you want to mm-hmm Speaker 3 (29:29): . So then you could also like your, like the pouches and things that you have, you could certainly use one of those. Speaker 4 (29:37): Yeah. Right? Exactly. Speaker 3 (29:38): Exposure while you're on your walk, Dolly. Speaker 4 (29:41): We, we were talking, I just remembered there was some other question about sleep. You were talking about a, and so let's talk about that because that's important be because kids are going to bed with these, uh, I'll, I'll give an example, um, by telling you a story, I was on a, a podcast and I was talking to this person, very, very bright person. And I said, your bedroom's a sanctuary. There should be no transmitting signals in that room. Uh, all devices, even in, in the case of a cell phone, I, I don't even recommend you've put it four foot or more way, get it out of the room. You don't need it in that room, eliminate all those kinds of things. And the person was very nice. And, uh, she said, well, you know, like that's good coaching. Uh, I'm, I'm sure that, uh, my husband and I, we have our phones in our room. Speaker 4 (30:38): And, well, thank you so much for letting us know about three or four weeks later, she calls me up and she said, I didn't believe a word. You said the way she would describe me. She says, I didn't believe a word you said. And I said it in the RF signal influences the head. It influences the sleep. Um, and so like, you have to get in the pattern, taking these things outta your room, because it disrupts the, my, uh, the, uh, me toin that's being generated throughout the body. And she said, my husband and I are now sleeping throughout the night. We simply took the laptops. Or in fact there was the phones out of our rooms. The other dimension of that discussion I had with her was simple. When you look at a, um, a lap, a laptop or, or tablet, when you're sleeping, before you go into bed at night, there is a blue light. Speaker 4 (31:26): You may have heard of this Dolly, a blue light blue light is part of the spectrum of sunlight, right? It's it's believe it or not visible electromagnetic radiation. That's what it is. It's visible. The blue component is very high on the spectrum of light and very, very close to what what's known as ionized radiation, x-ray radiation. That's roughly where it is. And it is the part of light that actually helps you go to sleep or stay awake. In other words, blue light is the trigger in the back of the eye. The crypto pro is a protein in the back of the eye that turns the on and off switch for a melatonin. And so when you are looking at the screen at 11 o'clock at night, and you've decided to go to bed, the melatonin hasn't been turned on because you had the blue light penetrating your eye and the switch hasn't turned off. Speaker 4 (32:26): And so believe it or not, it disrupts the, the, uh, the pattern of sleep only because it delays the melatonin and, and, and the, and the potential, uh, deep sleep and everything. The, the sick nature of our 24 hour cycle. Is it being impacted when you are actually looking at that blue light at night, before you go to bed? So it's a combination of removing products and watching how the technology you're using is impacting, uh, the, the sleep pattern and other ways. Um, so it is a, it is no question, very important for sleep that you really pull tablets, laptops, cell phones out of your sleeping area. Particularly if it's close to you, you do not wanna do it. Cause it is disrupting your sleep pattern. Speaker 3 (33:17): So will the, you have like think guys saw him on your website, the blue blocker glasses. Oh Speaker 4 (33:21): Yes. Did they actually, yeah, actually, that's why I did it because people were like, during the day, you're not gonna not use a screen. And it is only the blue component of the signal of the, of the light that you're worried about. So we have filters that we put on that takes that signal out, and we have a light 50% shielding and another one that's 99% shielding. And that's why we did it because people who want to read at night, they can go with the, the shield 99% shielding, and they actually have no impact to sleeping pattern as a result Speaker 3 (34:01): Of that. Okay. So then that would be a good alternative if they need Speaker 4 (34:05): Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. If you wanna do it, you can take that precautionary measure. Speaker 3 (34:10): Okay, cool. The other thing I wanted to go back to was on the earbuds. So kids are, you know, like all crazy about their AirPods and things like that. Is there anything that can be put on AirPods specific that helps to block it? Or is it just kind of a lost cause with those Speaker 4 (34:24): the, the answer is no, but, but let's talk about it because this is pretty serious, in my opinion. And I, I hate to talk about this detail, but, um, a, a cell phone, as I mentioned is 1.6 Watts per kilogram. That's the maximum amount of power, a Bluetooth signal, which is used to communicate to the earbuds is dot three Watts. It's five times less, the power level, five times less, the power level. So it's safer to some extent, but not necessarily the safest. And the reason why is because you have Bluetooth is a signal that goes from the, the device, your cell phone to the earbud. And then many of these devices communicate between each other with Bluetooth. And it turns out that.one.one, watch 15 times the power level of a cell phone can influence the frontal lobe cell and mutate the cell. It's not like it's not completely safe. It is from science. We have some data, not that much, but some data has indicated that kind of potential danger and have identified.one Watts as all it takes, which is really not much power at all. So in my opinion, dot dot, you do not want to use those devices. Uh, you, you just yourself needlessly. And if you had a standard peer earbuds, that's fine. Would that a wire, if you wanna do an improvement to that use acoustical connections like I designed and also was all in a market, other places. Speaker 3 (36:14): Okay. Yeah, that was gonna be, my next question was the difference between the wired ones and the wireless ones, cuz like all of the iPhones. Now you have to use an adapter in order to use the wire ones cuz they don't have a Jack anymore. Speaker 4 (36:28): I know it's like crazy. It was good for business, I guess, Speaker 3 (36:31): I guess so. I mean I have my own pair of AirPods that I bought years ago before I realized that as any, I just didn't really, you know, it was always kind of like one of those things like surely they're protecting us and wouldn't put something out that's gonna cause this harm. But it's, it's clear that there is exposure there and every kid ha seems to have those in their ears when they're walking around. So Speaker 4 (36:53): Dolly actually you bring up a really good point. One of the things I always say is you have the architect and you, your own destiny, you can't rely on anyone to keep you protected the FCC. They didn't intentionally. They certainly did not intend to create a standard that was 30 years later. Not as protective as it should be. They didn't do that. But that's a consequence when, when I smoked cigarettes 12, when I was 12 years old, many, many, many years ago, you know, I, I was a big man and believe it or not, even back then science knew about the link between cancer and smokey. How many years later did it take for us all to know that you shouldn't smoke over 30, 40 years ago, right? Trans fats, you know, there was a lowly biochemist 30 years ago. He said, it's not the cholesterol in the eggs that are killing us. It's the trans fats were used in the Cookoff French fries. It's Cogenic and how many years did it take for that to be banned it band in the us now it's been that way for two years, but we knew 30 years ago that it was potentially dangerous from a science perspective. I don't see this as that much different. It's a technology that we created in our environment, which is really, really good for us in so many different ways. It, it changes our lives, but it also introduces the concerns that we should be thinking about. Speaker 3 (38:22): Right. So cigarettes are a prime example of that and they're still out on the market, even though we know that you're right, Speaker 4 (38:27): Exactly. It's obviously I don't smoke anymore. I haven't for 40 years. So Speaker 3 (38:34): Yeah. So, okay. So I think you have given some really, really valuable tips on navigating this because technology's not going away. There's advantages to it. Like we're here connected right now because of it. So I think this is really good starting point for parents to just be aware of this and to help try to mitigate the risk of the exposure because you know, we're not gonna get the devices out of these kids' hands and no, Speaker 4 (38:59): No. Hey Ali, in fact, you reminded me when you mentioned that when we had the defendant pad, I wasn't really thinking we're gonna create other product lines. And then I read an article one day that these parents bought a, uh, their six year old daughter, a cell phone. She kept on pushing, pushing, pushing. And a year later after they got her, she, she passed away from, uh, front lo cancers. And I said to myself, I know I can stop that signal. I did it with the defender head and I said, look, we're not gonna throw away our technology, but we have to find a way of maybe making it slightly safer if you think it's endangering. And that's when I adopted the technology from one device to another simply because I'm not gonna throw my cell phone away. But at that time, believe it or not, I never had a cell phone close to me. I was just, I never did. But now I will, because I know I'm protected with a shielding device. So if you're gonna use it, watch your time, your distance and duration, uh, as well as the shielding, uh, if, if you choose to have devices long, extended period of times, close to your body. Awesome. Speaker 3 (40:13): Thank you so much for spending the time with me today. That's the, the, you just summarized it all with time, distance, duration and shielding. So yeah. Yep. Um, I really, really appreciate your time and your expertise and really taking the time to explain all this. And I think that all of the parents out there are really gonna benefit from this. So thank you so much for putting your passion into something that can help people. Well, Speaker 4 (40:35): Thanks so much daddy for invite. I mean, I, I really did enjoy this. I always, I, I think our goal in life is to try to help people understand what decisions they need to come up with. And, and that's what I consider pretty important for us to do so. And I think you do as well. So thank you so much for the work you do as well. Speaker 3 (40:55): Yes. You're welcome. Thank you so much. We just have to kind of join hands and, and move forward and, and create your own destiny like you said, so. Yep. Speaker 4 (41:03): Yeah. Whether you we're architects of the, our own destiny, don't let wait for anyone else to help you. Exactly. Speaker 3 (41:11): All right. Thank you so much. Speaker 2 (41:15): Thanks for tuning in being that mom is isn't easy, but together we can be that mom strong. Don't forget to leave a review, connect on social and join Dolly's free community till next time. Speaker 3 (41:28): Hey, if you are a mom that has a lot on your plate, like I do, and you struggle with Speaker 1 (41:33): Anxiety or sleep or even chronic pain issues, please check out my soul. C B d.com. They are the one and only CBD source that I trust. And you can use my code, be that mom for 15% off of your purchase.

In this episode, Troomi wireless founder Bill Brady shares all the details of their new safer phone option for kids made to grow smarter as they grow older.    Grab your Troomi phone today! Click here or use code BETHATMOM at https://troomi.com/ to grab $30 off your kid's Troomi phone!  Download my free Parenting in the Digital Age Resource guide! CLICK HERE or go to this link: https://www.dollydenson.com/digitalresources and be sure to opt in to my email list to be the first to know when my Be THAT Mom Movement Method course, your toolkit and roadmap for all things digital when raising kids today, is released!!    Check out the DIGITAL WELLNESS SUMMIT:  GRAB YOUR ALL ACCESS PASS HERE!! 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These products are game changers for clearing out the unwanted things and getting your immune system in tip top shape!  Paleovalley CLICK HERE (use code PVFRIEND15 for a discount) My Soul CBD CLICK HERE (use code BETHATMOM for a discount) MitoLife supplements CLICK HERE (use code BETHATMOM for a discount) Magnesium Bicarbonate supplement by LIVE PRISTINE (the majority are deficient in magnesium AND if taking Magnesium, are taking a form other than this that is not bioavailable and readily absorbed!) Use code BETHATOM for a discount! CLICK HERE  MOM HUSTLE TOOLS: Kajabi: The best platform to run your business with all the things in one place! CLICK HERE Podcast Pro University CLICK HERE to learn more about the top podcast course, created by Stef Gass, that will help you take that idea and passion to the next level with a podcast of your own! Health/Wellness Coach opportunity!! Focus on your own wellness through fitness/nutrition while inviting a few friends to join you and/or build your own brand as a wellness coach with Team Beachbody: Email me at dolly@dollydenson.com for more info! Full Transcription:  Speaker 1 (00:00): I've said it once I've said it twice, I've probably said it a hundred or maybe even a thousand times since I launched this podcast a year and nine months ago. And that is that all of the options that have come out in the last couple of years to help parents navigate this wild, wild west of the digital world and all the things are true gifts to us parents. And as if everything that's out there, isn't awesome enough. We have a new option for the dumb smartphones. Like, yes, I am not kidding. Knock your socks off. This is incredibly exciting. So for this episode, I have an interview with the founder of this new phone, and you are going to want to listen to this state to Speaker 2 (00:44): Welcome to your source for tips, tools, and support to help you be that mom that is tuned in and proactive for yourself, your family, and for the wild ride of raising kids in this digital age, inspired by a mother's love with a relatable real life, proud to be that mom layer. This is the be that mom movement with your host Dolly Denson. Speaker 1 (01:09): So yes, I am not kidding. You are not gonna wanna miss this interview. This is for a new company that has created what I call a dumb smartphone, but this one, an extra feature that makes it not so dumb. The company is called Tru me, and I will leave it to the founder to explain the meaning behind that name, which is pretty awesome and gave me kind of chills because it's exactly the things that I talk about all the time, but yeah, it grows with you and it kind of fills that app that a lot of parents have told me about. And then I hear complaints about when it comes to the dumb smartphones that they are great for when they're younger and as they get a little bit older, but there's kind of a gap there where you're not quite ready to give them access to all of the things, but they're kind of outgrowing that phone. Speaker 1 (02:02): So one creates a little bit of a bridge there gives you much more control and kind of lets you guide them into what I've referred to before is the deep blue sea of all of the digital things. So I think you are going to absolutely love this as a new option for your kiddo. And if you have younger ones to start them out and help guide them and teach them healthy habits around tech. Okay. So I won't delay any further in introducing the founder of Trumie who is bill Brady. And I will let him explain who he is and what's he about and all of the things around this phone. And before I shift over to that, there is a link in the show notes to grab this phone with a $30 discount and you can also go to their website directly and use my code, be that mom for that same discount. So check it out in the show notes or use the code at checkout. Be that mom. Okay. Speaker 3 (03:05): All righty. So today I have bill here with me with Trumie wireless and I am so excited to have you join us today. So tell me a little bit about yourself, about your family, wherever you wanna share with me and what brought you to create the Trumie phone. Speaker 4 (03:21): Hey, thank you, Dolly. Great to be with you. So yeah, my name is bill Brady and uh, I'm the co-founder and CEO of Tru me wireless. That's actually not my most important job. my most important job is I've been married for 20 years and have a wonderful wife named Heidi. And we've got five kid. Our oldest is 17 and our youngest is five. So we are ourselves right in the thick of all of these questions surrounding kids and technology. And what do you do? And when we can empathize with every other family in America, that's dealing with the same things. So we, uh, uh, yeah, we've been involved in, in Tru me for the last year and a half. Uh, I've actually been in this space of technology for kids for about three years and originally got into this effort to try and find better solutions, safer solutions for families, for families actually stemming from 20 years to I've spent in the marketing world. Speaker 4 (04:22): Even going back to my time as an undergrad student in university, I was concerned about what I called the dehumanizing effects of technology. And, and so picture that, you know, 20 years ago or 25 years ago for that almost that was before everyone one had cell phones and it was certainly before smart phones. And it was certainly before social media, but as, as a marketer who uses all of these tools, I've watched with a high level of conscientiousness about what does technology really do to us. And as I became a dad was even more are concerned and sensitive about, Hey, you know, I don't want to give my kids too much too soon and just have them be living life on the screen instead of living life in real life. so that that's really where this all, uh, where this all started. Speaker 3 (05:17): Awesome. Um, so just outta curiosity, where does the name truly come from? Speaker 4 (05:23): Our mission has everything to do with helping kids accomplish their full potential. We want kids to have, you know, energetic, confident, vibrant lives, where they can really become all that they want to be, where they can find their true selves if you will, or they're true me. And we took that concept and, and put a little bit of an invented, spin on it and call it true me. So there's layers of meaning there. Wow. Speaker 3 (05:54): I love that. Um, any of the ones that have listened to me on my podcast for a little while, know that I, I say this all the time that I feel like the digital space and the digital world that we allow our kids to be in is like robbing our kids of their full potential. It's a distraction. And it's like hindering their exploration of the world and all of that, and being able to find their true self. So cow, I love it. , Speaker 4 (06:18): That's awesome. And you know, you, you touch on a really important point there and it's a fine line. You know, certainly if kids only live virtual lives where robbing them of everything that you know is beautiful and good in the world that the world has to offer and the depth of the true depth of human relationships. On the other hand, there are aspects of technology that are great. You know, the, the fact that my kids can, you know, have a, a video conference with their grandparents, wonderful. They live on the other side of the country. Recently, my kids did a tour of Jamestown with a doc who had been working at Jamestown for two decades. And it was so good that they felt like they were there and they had this great positive experience with history, you know, so there are some wonderful aspects of technology, but when it gets into just this default for life, you know, if that's all they're doing at the expense of being side and being in nature, playing face to face with friends, and you know, that that's where we really get into problems. And certainly with, you know, all the dangers that come with social media, for example, you know, there's a, uh, some, some, some very obvious things to watch out for there that we try and keep our kids away from. Speaker 3 (07:38): Totally agree. Wow. That is awesome. Like you are like right on the same wavelength as me, when I first discovered that there were, what I call 'em is, I don't know if I've said this to you yet. What I call them is dumb smartphones. Have you heard, heard them referred to that? That, in that sense? Yeah. Speaker 4 (07:54): It, this certainly this, this, uh, category I've heard that what we've built is, is, is very, very flexible. So it's, it's probably less dumb than, than some of the other things out there, but definitely a limited, a limited experience smartphone. Yeah, for sure. Okay. Speaker 3 (08:11): Yeah. So we'll, let's dive into that a little bit. That was my next topic was let's talk about the actual phone, what features it has, how does it work and how is it different from the other ones on the market that are kind of aiming for that same goal of, of limiting access to the entire Speaker 4 (08:26): World? Yeah. So there's kind of a, if you think of, of the spectrum of options out there for parents, when it comes time to get their child a phone, you know, on, on one end of the spectrum, you have what I call the wild west, you know, it's get your child a $1,200 iPhone. It does anything and everything. It could probably launch a space shuttle if you wanted it to . And, and we know, we know now, you know, there's an increasing conscientiousness about the dangers of just wide open access to the web, all the, the content that's there. Certainly the, the, the, you know, pornographic and violent content, most people would agree. We don't want our kids near that stuff. There's also, however, you know, the dangers that are inherent in things like social media, we, where you've got this intense comparison culture that robs kids of their self-esteem and their confidence, social media is where you've got predators and bullies hanging out. Speaker 4 (09:26): And again, as parents we're learning, Hey, it's not worth the risk of, of immersing our kids in that stuff. On the other end of the spectrum, as an extreme, you've got some options that are completely limited to talk and text only, and particularly for younger kids, Hey, that's a great starting point. And, and I agree, you know, you, you don't need to give a seven or an eight year old, anything more than basic talk or text the challenge with, with some of those solutions though, is that they don't grow with the child. And as, as we were starting, Tru me, our goal was to create an operating system where you could give a younger kid a very limited experience, but then graduate them into increasing levels of responsibility and functionality based on real needs and based on their individual personality and maturity. So that's what we've done. Speaker 4 (10:23): Our, our phones, our Samsung devices, quality devices, the kids are, are happy to use. And the in dependable devices that parents don't have to worry about getting fixed all the time. And we've on those devices, we've put what we call our kids smart operating system. And, and that's exactly what it does as I described it. It gives parents the ability to custom fit that device with some very, very easy, intuitive controls, custom fit it for an eight year old or a 10 year old, or a 12 year old, or even a 14 year, 15 year old. It, it would still be relevant to them and the needs that they have for school and for their hobbies. That is awesome. Speaker 3 (11:02): So as far as like how it grows with them, I saw on your website that it has a parent portal and then GPS locator and safe listing is where they can, you can put in, who can contact them and versa. Right? Speaker 4 (11:18): Yeah. And that was, that was very important for us based on feedback. We'd heard about, you know, other solutions out there, you know, picture giving your, your child something that's completely locked down to talk and text, but if anyone can talk or text with your child, then it might not be as safe as you think it is. So, so when, as we were building Tru me, one of the things that was really important for us was to build this concept called safe listing, where you can, you can set that up with different, different levels of, of security, but make it so that the child can only talk or text with the, the people that you designate for a young child that might be 10. But then, you know, as that child grows, there might be 30 or 40 contacts, or, you know, 75 or a hundred contacts for an older child. You could, you could elect to remove that safe listing all together. For example, I have a 15 year old daughter and she knows what to do. If she gets an unintended call, she's not gonna get pulled into something dangerous at this point. You know? So in her case, I have the safe listing turned off for my 12 year old and younger absolutely. That safe listing is turned on. Okay. I will Speaker 3 (12:33): Of that too. How about with, so with the safe listing, like texting, only the people that are on the list can text them. That's Speaker 4 (12:40): Correct. Even, uh, even in group text. And that was one of the things that we had to build, you know, brand new functionality for. There was no existing mobile device management platform that, you know, would prevent having a, a safe, listed text contact, not be able to pull in, you know, additional people to a group text that was a way to get around that, that function. So with our safe listing, even in group text, you've gotta be on that list in order to have a conversation with, uh, with Speaker 3 (13:12): The child. So then how would it work? Like say that they have a group of like five friends and they have, you know, the, the access to the entire world phones and they try to send a child with this phone, a text. And some of those people aren't on the list is the entire text Speaker 4 (13:27): Blocked. Yeah. So the, the, the, you know, my child, they would not get the text, the rest of the group would, but my child would not get the text from that person that was, uh, who's not on their list. Okay. So like, Speaker 3 (13:42): If the, the main person that's sending it is on the list and then the other people are not, it would just be blocked completely.  Speaker 4 (13:48): I mean, if I'm, I'm not sure I understand completely the question, but yeah. If, if a person that my child has on their list has started a group conversation, but they've invited people that are not on my child's list. My child would not be able to send a receive with the people, not on the, not on the approved list. Something that's really important to note though, too. And this is a, this is an improvement we've made as we've gone. We quickly realize that there are situations where kids do need to have immediate act us to a person that might meet might not be on their list. So for example, my 12 year old daughter was going to babysit for a family who does, who didn't have a home phone. And, and that family said to her, Hey, take our cell phone number so that if you need to contact us, you can, and if we need to contact you, we can obviously that's important. Speaker 4 (14:35): Right, right. so we did set up, you know, again, just with making it as user friendly is absolutely possible. We set up a way where my daughter can add a, add that phone number herself in real time, and have it be available for the next 72 hours without my having to approve it. That's one of those security levels for a younger kid. You can have it set, so they can't have any access with that person until it's approved. But, uh, yeah, for that, that tween group we've found it's important that they'd be able to have immediate access. They've they've got, had some judgment, they know what to do and what not to do, but, but still have that, that ability to, to keep the overall approval in, in my parent portal. Speaker 3 (15:20): Okay. I like that, how it kind, I mean, it all kind of grows with them then, you know, like the features of it in the parent control. Speaker 4 (15:28): Another, another example of growing with is being able to add internet access, you know, for my, my eight or nine year old, they probably don't need the internet. But once my kids are getting into fifth grade and sixth grade, certainly by seventh grade, you can't do schoolwork without the internet. Like that's just not the way our schools run anymore. And so what he developed was what we call our kids smart browser, where you can give children access to this browser. And in the parent portal, you designate what sites are available to them and picture the awesome conversation you get to have with your kids. You know, we, we've designed all of this to encourage a, a Cooper collaborative relationship where you're sitting down with your kids and saying, Hey, help me understand what you need. Here's where I'm turning on the kid's smart browser. What are the websites that you would like access to? Speaker 4 (16:25): And then as a, as a parent, you can look at those sites with your kids and, and make sure that you feel good about them, and then put them on that list. Then when your child is using their phone and they open the browser, they see a dropdown menu with all those sites that were designated in the parent portal. And that's the O those are the only sites they have access to. There's not even a place to search for anything else. There's no search bar. You literally can go to the sites that are in that dropdown menu. So you're able to create a completely safe internet experience for your child, as opposed to just saying, no, we don't do the internet. You don't need the internet on your phone. That's just not practical that that's for, for a, a growing kid. That's not practical for the needs they have for school and for healthy high. Speaker 3 (17:14): I totally agree with that. And that's really kind of the drawback of some of the other options that are out there right now is the, you know, you reach a point to where I've got a, uh, my best friend has twin girls and they're just turned 13 and they both have one of the other options out there for dumb smartphone. , they're just like, please, can we have a regular phone? And I can't wait to tell her about this as her next step. Cause I don't think they're ready for the entire world yet, but they'll pay for something for a graduation. So to speak. Speaker 4 (17:44): That, that's the right. That's the right paradigm. We do the same thing with apps actually, you know, know, I, I'm not ready for my kids to have the entire app store at their fingertips. And as a parent, I don't have time to go and, and vet every single app out there that my kids might want. So what we've done at Tru me is, again, it goes back to that great parent portal that we've built, we've curated and vetted a suite of apps that are available for, to, for parents to put on the phone. There's no app store on the phone. So the kids don't see an app store of any kind, but inside the parent portal, I can look at apps for school, for hobbies, for music, for creativity, for spirituality, all those different categories. And then I literally just go click, click, click, click, choose the ones I want. Speaker 4 (18:34): And in a matter of minutes, they appear on the phone. And what parents love is that if we have put those apps in our collection, they can have a high degree of confidence that we've, we've gone through the vetting process to make sure there's no inappropriate content and there's no back doors for creeps to, to get at your kids. Some of those apps include, you know, the most popular digital classroom apps, a Google classroom, canvas, Blackboard Skyward. We've got apps from music streaming in there, apple music, Spotify, Spotify, kids, iHeartRadio, family, Amazon music. So if you're comfortable and some parents aren't some parents aren't, and it's your choice. If you're comfortable with your kids having access to a, a streaming service, then they get to in, you know, have that on their phone. Speaker 3 (19:24): Okay. That's awesome too. everything about this has been awesome so far. How about, uh, the other thing I wanted to know was for when they're younger, if you have the choice, does the par is the parent portal set up to where you can say what they have access to at certain times of day, like putting it in modes for like study time, that type of Speaker 4 (19:42): Thing. Yeah. The way we've built that right now is for any function or any app, you can, you know, build the window of time when that's available. So for example, we have a daughter who loves, loves, loves audio books. There there's an app on the phone called Libby where she can, you know, get digital audio books from the, from the library. Well, without a restriction on there, we would be wrestling with her all day all on that. So we have it set up. So that app is only available after school. And it turns off before she goes to bed, otherwise she would stay up all night, you know? So you can, you can set that kind of functionality with any app or, or frankly, any function, including the calling and texting. Okay. Speaker 3 (20:28): How about, what are the options for like the plans and, and the type, the, the, like the, is it the same phone for all the plans and you just choose the different plan that you pay  Speaker 4 (20:37): For. That's exactly it. So we have a, a couple of, of Samsung devices, the Samsung galaxy, a 12 and the Samsung galaxy, a 32. Those are the two phones that we've started with. They both have phenomenal cameras. The one has a 16 megapixel camera and one has a 48 megapixel camera. The reason we, we wanted to do quality devices like that is cuz pictures matter to kids. If they're gonna take, if they're gonna take pictures, they want them to be good. They want them to be good quality. So we we've gone that route and, and used good devices, not expensive devices, but enough quality that the, the, the picture quality isn't compromised when it comes to the plans, you, you know, first you choose your device and then you choose which plan you want. Unlimited talk and unlimited basic is 1495 a month. So very, very affordable. Speaker 4 (21:31): If you wanna change that to group text and picture texting the cost increases to 1995 a month. And if you wanna add the kid smart apps and the kid smart browser, it goes to 24 95 a month. And those are all truly on unlimited plans. We're not just pooling, you know, pooling a, a big block of minutes and data and hoping it's gonna work out. It's truly unlimited for every user. And those include calling to Canada and Mexico as well. So, uh, great plans at a, at a very affordable, very affordable price and phones. Uh, I should mention, you know, the, the ones, uh, a hundred and seventy nine ninety five, and the second one is two hundred and seven seventy nine ninety five. So again, we've tried to keep those at, uh, at prices that make sense for kids. I've never thought it was a good idea to get my kid a $1,200 phone. I just don't think it's necessary. kinda Speaker 3 (22:27): Crazy that, that, and the only, that was the only option when my kids were young. Speaker 4 (22:32): Yeah. thank goodness. There are more options Speaker 3 (22:34): Now. Thank goodness. Holy cow. I truly, I always mentioned this on my podcast that having these options is truly such, like, I call it a mother's gift, but a parent's gift. Yeah. Because it's just, there's so much out there. And unfortunately my kids minor, my youngest is 16 and my oldest is 23. They were in this middle school age when none of these things existed. So, okay. I'm so thankful for for the next to have this option. that's great. So I think I've covered all of my questions that I had for you. Is there anything else you who thinks pertinent for us to talk about or anything else you wanna share? Speaker 4 (23:13): Yeah. I just, I just think of the whole philosophy behind, you know, kids and safe devices. You know, this, this might be another place where, where we're different from some of our competitors. I think kids are inherently good. They're parently. They, they wanna do what's right. They wanna be successful. It's our job as parents to guide them and to give them some guardrails when they, when they need the guardrails. But I I've always thought that that approach of just saying to a, a, a child, Hey, I'm locking you down to talk and text only kind of sense the wrong message. You know, it, it almost feels like a lack of trust to me. And I think the phone has, yes, of course, it's gotta keep them safe today. That's a given, but it's also gonna prepare them for the future. It's also gonna give them access to good content content that would help them in school content that would help them develop healthy hobbies. Speaker 4 (24:11): And certainly by the time they leave phone home, they've got to be disciplined, responsible users of technology, cuz technology will be part of their lives. So I think we do them a disservice. You know, if we say, Hey, I'm locking you down to talk and text only. And as long as you live in my house, that's all you're gonna have. I don't think that's the right way to go. So we, we, our goal was to, to create a, a positive, healthy relationship between kids and parents give the kids the guardrails, they need give them technology that's per to their age, but you've gotta help them develop, you know, some of that discipline and responsibility on their own, all, all the while, keeping, keeping them away from the pornography and the predators and stuff. But they've gotta learn how to use apps and learn how to use the web. Speaker 3 (25:00): I totally agree. Like it's just kind of setting them up for success versus sending 'em down the dark. Like I call it the deep blue sea often, like sending them out into the deep blue sea without any flotation device. Never taught them how to swim, but yeah, go out there and then I'm gonna be mad at you all of the time for, you know, not knowing what you're doing. Speaker 4 (25:21): It's a good, good analogy. Speaker 3 (25:22): Yeah. So was there anything in your, if you're willing to share any of this, was there anything that happened with your kids that made you more aware that brought you to the awareness of the threat? Or was it just that past experience that you had that you mentioned? Yeah, Speaker 4 (25:37): We've been, we've been very, very fortunate in, in that we haven't had any of the, the really, you know, the really dangerous stuff happen with our kids. Partly because we were always very cautious. You know, we, we didn't, we didn't just say, Hey, here's your, here's your wild west phone? You know, we were, we've always been pretty de uh, deliberate about it. I've had numerous friends and especially while I've been in this space, numerous friends, tell me just some harrowing stories of sit situations. Their kids have gotten into some extremely dangerous situations in a, in a, you know, in a couple cases I've said to my friend, Hey, you know, forgive me for if this is too personal, but why on earth did you not have that phone locked down with the right parental controls? And on more than one occasion, the person has said to me, I thought I did. Speaker 4 (26:27): You know, and some of the controls that have been available to this point are so hard to use so complicated, so hard to stay on top of that. Parents don't know what really is set up correctly or not. Or in some cases, the kids are so smart, they get around the controls. And, and for that reason, we didn't build truly as a piece of software that just gets added to the phone. It's the operating system itself. You cannot, you know, a kid cannot can't get away from it. They can, they can reboot the phone. They can go on and off different network works, whatever they want to try, that operating system is always there. And so we we've built it with that level of, uh, conscientiousness, you know, hearing some of the, the other stories that are out there. So Speaker 3 (27:12): That brings up another question I wanted to ask you is about like the parental control apps that are out there that are real popular. Uh, I don't see that one of those would even be needed. Is that something that's an, an option that can be added to it or do y'all have that capability on it? You know, like the ones that monitor what texts are going out and kind of tell you what the kids have been doing as far as activity goes. Speaker 4 (27:32): Yeah, great question. And there are some good apps out there. They're not infallible, uh, but there are some good, you know, good apps for most, you know, for a lot of situations, our goal was to, to make them less needed. So for example, with, uh, with our operating system coming very, very soon, uh, in our next big release, you'll be able to remotely monitor all of your kids' texts, right? In the parent portal. You won't have to say, Hey, let me look at your phone and look at your text. All of that monitoring will happen right in the parent portal with some pretty advanced functionality, as that gets built out, you know, for alerting parents to potential problems and, you know, inappropriate language or inappropriate pictures or language that sounds like, Hey, this could be a bully or a predator, that kind of thing. And of course, that's something that's gonna, you know, improve as we continue to build it over time. Speaker 4 (28:25): But the first release of that is coming very soon. And, but you know, the other side of that is the need for monitoring. Everything goes down dramatically. If your kids are only talking to people that you've decided that you trust. And if they're only going to websites that you have pre-approved, I mean, just the whole need goes down dramatically. That's not to say that in the future, we won't have some kind of a, a, a partnership with, you know, with one of those companies, uh, you know, we may, we may do that at some point, but, uh, certainly right now the need doesn't exist. Like it, like it does if you're on another phone. Right, right. Speaker 3 (29:01): I get that. So when you, like, when you're gonna, so right now the parent portal doesn't have where it shows the text, did you say you're y'all are adding that? Speaker 4 (29:10): Yeah. That'll, that'll, that's coming in our next release, our next, uh, big release of the software. So, uh, literally a matter of weeks. Speaker 3 (29:18): Okay. And then with that, you can basically just see like a running list of what their conversations have Speaker 4 (29:23): Been running list. And then, you know, we're gonna add some filters that allow you to see, Hey, your kid talks to these people, here are the top five people they talk to the most. And if you wanna dig down on any of, one of those people, just click that. And they're the text with that person in particular, you know, you'd be able to see in that dashboard, Hey, here are the text messages that were flagged for potential inappropriate language or bullying language. All of that will be there. And also note that in, in the parent portal, you'll see everything. Whether or not a, a text has been deleted, it's still showing up, you still see everything it's all collected there. Okay. Speaker 3 (30:05): So then you're hitting some of the high points of things that I often mention as places where things slip through. And that's like, yeah, the sheer volume of text that can go through between people, a parent can often miss the conversation or, you know, something that they should be you aware of. And then the, like just the filter of the conversation. So that's good that y'all have that in the works and, and plan for that. Cuz I know I missed things that I shouldn't have missed, but it was because now it has been because of one of those filter systems being put on my son's phone and being able to be alert of things. Now it picks up silly things like his conversation with his grandparent and you know, who's gonna bring the gun and other things like that. But you know, like when they're gonna go hunting and stuff, that sounded really bad. Yeah. But you know, like when, um, they're talking about stuff that I'm aware of now, but it'll pick up on little things like that, that yeah. In the context of being with a friend, maybe something that I wanna know about, so sure. Speaker 4 (31:05): Yeah. Yeah. And better, you know, better that you get over alerted than under alerted, you know, better that you better to have a false negative than a, you know, a missed, a missed positive. Speaker 3 (31:16): Yes. All right. Well, I think that's everything that I had enlisted that I wanted to ask you about. Anything else you can think of that you wanna share? No, Speaker 4 (31:25): I think that's it, you know, happy to, to invite people, to come check things out. We do a lot on social media, uh, in a lot on our blog by way of, you know, trying to help parents really get through some of these questions that they have, uh, relative to parenting around technology. So on our website, it's Tru me.com T R om i.com go to our blog there and you'll find a lot of great content to help with some of these questions. And then on, uh, Instagram and Facebook, we are at Tru me wireless. Speaker 3 (31:57): Right. Awesome. Well, I appreciate you coming on today and sharing all of this with my audience. I think this is gonna be super valuable and I'm very excited to get this out into the world into more hands of parents so they can help their kids be their true selves. That's really awesome. Thank you so much. Speaker 4 (32:15): Thank you, Dolly. Speaker 2 (32:18): Thanks for tuning in being that mom isn't easy, but together we can be that mom strong. Don't forget to leave a review, connect on social and join Dolly's free community till next time.

This episode features an interview with Nicole Rawson, the founder of Screentime Clinic, a coaching network to help families navigate all the digital things, and the author of the book, Screen Smart Sam Battles the Bad Habit Monsters. Nicole is the mom of two teens, and has walked the walk of learning the hard way on how screens impact our kids, as so many of us in this space have done.   You can find more info about her and her mission as well as purchase the book at https://screensmartfamilies.org/  or on Amazon HERE.  DIGITAL WELLNESS SUMMIT: LIVE SEPT 25 & 26, 2021 GRAB YOUR TICKET HERE!! FREE DOWNLOAD: Tips for using Bark + Digital Resources FREE DOWNLOAD: Digital Resources For all my top tips & tools go to https://www.dollydenson.com/store DIGITAL RESOURCE TOOLS: BARK subscription CLICK HERE (Use code BETHATMOM for 20% off & 7 day free trial) Pinwheel phone CLICK HERE (use code BETHATMOMTEN for a discount!) Gabb phone CLICK HERE (use code BETHATMOM for a discount) Tick Talk Watch CLICK HERE (use code BETHATMOM for a discount) Covenant Eyes CLICK HERE (use code BETHATMOM for a discount) Gryphon Router CLICK HERE  Circle Plus CLICK HERE (click link for $20 off) Bark Home CLICK here!! Stay connected with the Be THAT Mom Movement via our channel in the Telegram app: Subscribe HERE or search for @bethatmom on the app. Or on social media via instagram https://www.instagram.com/the_bethatmommovement  MOM WELLNESS TOOLS: Fit Club info: Being THAT mom isn't easy, so prioritizing our own wellness is so important! Get tips and tools plus support to help you simplify and align your health/wellness through fitness & nutrition tools that will get you results and to be strong and energetic for your kids! For more info on these tools & the Align Your Life Fit Club, CLICK HERE!!  Have a fitness routine that works for you but need to level up your nutrition? Ensure you get your daily nutrition with the powerful and unmatched smoothie called Shakeology CLICK HERE to learn more. (Available by itself or combined with what I like to call the Netflix for fitness/wellness library. CLICK HERE for the top options that save you $$$ when getting started with ALL the tools to get you that crucial momentum to make this a routine that sticks!) Other supplements I highly recommend  (for informational purposes only, not medical advice, consult with your healthcare provider for questions and to get recommendations specific to your health conditions) Concerned for toxin/mold/parasite exposure & how to support your immune system in today's world? I highly recommend Cell Core products, using humic/fulvic acid and natural herbs and minerals to support you at the cellular level, as your one stop shop for detoxing your body while supporting your immune system at the gut level and beyond. Check out the products and protocols available at https://www.cellcore.com and use practitioner code yaCPzYmn to purchase. Connect with me for questions and guidance. These products are game changers for clearing out the unwanted things and getting your immune system in tip top shape!  Paleovalley CLICK HERE (use code PVFRIEND15 for a discount) My Soul CBD CLICK HERE (use code BETHATMOM for a discount) MitoLife supplements CLICK HERE (use code BETHATMOM for a discount) Magnesium Bicarbonate supplement by LIVE PRISTINE (the majority are deficient in magnesium AND if taking Magnesium, are taking a form other than this that is not bioavailable and readily absorbed!) Use code BETHATOM for a discount! CLICK HERE  MOM HUSTLE TOOLS: Kajabi: The best platform to run your business with all the things in one place! CLICK HERE Podcast Pro University CLICK HERE to learn more about the top podcast course, created by Stef Gass, that will help you take that idea and passion to the next level with a podcast of your own! Health/Wellness Coach opportunity!! Focus on your own wellness through fitness/nutrition while inviting a few friends to join you and/or build your own brand as a wellness coach with Team Beachbody: Email me at dolly@dollydenson.com for more info! Full Transcription:  Speaker 1 (00:00): So as we know the influence of the digital things starts at any age that we put a device in the hands of a child. So today's episode is going to highlight a friend of mine who is on the same mission as me, for helping moms and families to navigate this world of so many interconnected, digital things. Stay tuned for an interview with Nicole Rawson, from Screentime clinic and the author of the book screen smart Sam battles, the bad habit monsters stay tuned. Speaker 2 (00:38): Welcome to your source for tips, tools, and support to help you be that mom that is tuned in and proactive for yourself, your family, and for the wild ride of raising kids in this digital age, inspired by a mother's love with a relatable real life. Proud to be that mom flair. This is the bead that mom movement with your host, Dolly Denson. Speaker 1 (01:04): Holy moly. Check this out. If you are a mom that is looking to give your kiddo a phone, but you don't want to open up the world of the smartphone to them yet, check out the pinwheel phone. The pinwheel phone is the latest and greatest for dumb smartphones. It gives you absolute control over what they do and who they can contact, and we'll help them to develop healthy habits around using a phone, check out pinwheel@pennwell.com use code be that mom 10 for a discount. So before we get started with chatting with Nicole, I just want to give you a heads up that there's only link in the show notes for accessing the digital wellness education summit. This is going to go live on September 25th, and there are different versions of tickets that you can purchase, where you can access the content in real time. Or you can have an all access pass in order to listen to it at a later time and in different versions. Speaker 1 (01:56): So please check this out. If you're a parent, if you're an educator, if you have any interaction with children, you have to get this information and listen to it and take it to heart because our children are our future and the digital things absolutely do have an impact. And as long as we are staying on the forefront of awareness and working together in our village to surround our children and move forward as things evolve and change and ever changing influence on our kids, we need to have this information at our fingertips. So check out the link in the show notes for the digital wellness education summit. It is an amazing resource that I want you to have access to. I am not the only speaker in it. There are, I believe, 13 of us plus the two co-hosts. And it's just a great resource for you to have, and to be able to kind of wrap your mind around all of the things digital and how it's influencing our children. Speaker 1 (02:49): So please check that out in the show notes. Okay. So today we're going to get rolling on an interview that I did with Nicole Ross and she is the founder of screen-time clinic. She is a former teacher and has two children that are in upper teenage years. She has walked this path very similar to mine where we kind of didn't know what was going on. We saw the influence of things, and we decided to turn our struggle into strength and offer this gift back to the world. So I hope you enjoy this interview I had with Nicole and that you find this helpful and that you will get this book as a resource for you and your kids or someone, you know, in your life that is having kids or has grandkids, whatever it may be. If you have kids, you need this book. Okay. So let's check it out. So today we have Nicole and she is the author as screen smart Sam battles, the bad habit monsters. And so I just wanted to talk to her today and introduce her to all of you so that you can learn more about what she has to offer and this amazing book that she has written. So thanks so much for joining me today. I am so glad that you're here. Speaker 3 (03:51): Oh, thanks for having me on. This was really fun to talk and I love your podcast. Thanks for all you do for getting the information out there to everybody. Speaker 1 (04:00): Yes. Like we both kind of went through this whole struggle and brought us to this same place with our kiddos and stuff. So I know you kind of have a similar background as me, so for everybody that's listening. Tell me more about you and what brought you to be working in this similar spaces? Me, yeah, Speaker 3 (04:16): I'm a former middle and high school teacher and I also have two now 17 and 18 year old boys. So mine is kind of a mix of seeing what's happening in the classroom. And also I got involved in interested in digital wellness and gaming addiction and, you know, the psychology behind all of that because of my own children. So that's what really inspired me to take a deep dive and research because in San Diego, there really weren't any specialists. And still even today, there's a waitlist for a rehab center for gaming addiction that has 300 people. And yet there's still not enough psychologists to help parents create these habits. So I just really wanted to create resources to help parents and have something. And the earlier the better that's kind of where the book came from. Then after I founded the company screen- time clinic to help parents, parent coaches, helping parents reach their goals. And yeah, so it's been a good journey. Wow. Speaker 1 (05:16): So you definitely have similar experiences as me with the gaming addiction and all of that stuff. And I didn't know that about the waiting list, so that's quite interesting, but I can totally see that that's such an issue. Speaker 3 (05:27): Yeah. And it's too bad that it gets to that point where then, you know, you have 17 and 18 and 19 and 20 year olds that are really failing in life because of the gaming habit and just not flourishing doing their best or just really having problematic behaviors. And, you know, my whole goal now, my mission in life is to prevent that and really start very early talking about it and the risks, because I still run into parents that say what video games are addictive, prove it. Okay. Speaker 1 (05:59): Yes. I totally see that too. And I do think like that's one thing that I've talked about recently on some of my other episodes is just how much believe that all these digital distractions and addictions to the games and different things basically like divert their development to where it's, it's kind of almost stopping it. So they're not moving on and in development in life and gaining independence and interests in the outside world and careers and all of that. Yeah. Speaker 3 (06:26): Yes. At the very least it's preventing them from reaching all those other potentials. And honestly, the more we researched, the more I talk with experts, it really does change the brain chemistry and has long-term effects by only using that one part of your brain for so much time fixated on the games, thinking about them, talking about them, playing them. So with screen smart, Sam, the book it's meant for elementary school kids any age, honestly, it would be a great gift for a new parent, even just to talk about it and to like have that in the back of your mind, that we don't need to give our children video games to make them happy. There's other ways to spark joy and interest. And, you know, if you do, it has to be really tightly monitored because a lot of kids are at high risk for gaming addiction. Speaker 3 (07:17): If they meet a whole host of certain criteria, including autism, spectrum, male, gender, premature birth, any sort of behavior disorders, learning disorders, they're at extra risk. So even though it may look like it's helping them, it really creates a lot of dysfunction and screen smart. Sam talks about the different ways to really keep that in check. And we're not anti tech, but it just is to have healthy habits. And for parents to read the book and see, you know, what are some ways that we can make change in the home to set our kids up for success? When they're little, Speaker 1 (07:53): I love the, a bad habit monster. Like I was reading through it this morning as I was getting ready for us talking today. And I was like, oh my God, I love this. It's like all the things that we walked through and didn't know that we had this common ground among all of us with this, you know, all that, all of us that I call it a new realm of parenting. And basically we were like the first generation of parents to walk through it with no guidance and no clue what was happening to our children until damage had been done. And now we have this whole generation of parents that are doing this and this space to help educate the next generation, but the bad habit monster, and all of that was just it's. It's so cute. And how you illustrate it and talk about it Speaker 3 (08:37): Because it is, you know, it's a, it's a draw. It's something that kids want to do. And once they start it, they're always going to be drawn to it. Unless, you know, kids don't have, and teens don't have that self- regulation ability just to stand up and say, Nope, I'm not going to do it. It's not good for me. I'm just going to walk away. It's, it's something that they will always be drawn to, even if they know they shouldn't. And there are parameters it's like that little monkey on your back that once it started, it's hard to stop. Yes. Like all the other tasty things in life that we ended up doing. Speaker 1 (09:13): Exactly. So the book is geared more toward parents of younger. Speaker 3 (09:19): Yes. Yes. And it's meant to be code red. It's a parent engagement tool to talk with your children about, you know, we have parents of toddlers reading it. You can see on our Instagram page, screen, smart Sam ways to actively read with your toddler, that you don't have to read word for word, that you're looking at the pictures and talking about healthy habits, just like green light foods and red light foods like screens or red light. We try to avoid them. And then, you know, fourth and fifth graders, those are the ones that can read the book themselves more and internalize the message a little bit more and do some worksheets and really think about how they can make those changes with their parents and why it's necessary. Okay. Speaker 1 (10:04): So to get those other resources, I think it says it at the front of the book, right? As it's screened smartfamilies.org. Speaker 3 (10:10): Yes. Yep. There's a whole website just dedicated to the book. And we've had a lot of sponsors that have made it possible to donate books to schools. So the teachers can use them in their classrooms that way, but parents are welcome to order their own copy there and there's worksheets and just screen-free ideas and a whole lot of other books on that topic also. Speaker 1 (10:33): So this sounds amazing. And it's like, I think it's, so I feel like the middle school years are so critical when parents are unknowingly giving the smartphone they're giving into that pressure and social pressure. But like we've talked about before this influence starts young. Any time we put a digital device in their hands. So this is kind of gearing toward a little bit younger ages up to those years of giving this the phone. So Speaker 3 (10:59): Exactly. Cause kids are so persistent and persuasive and little, little kids, they want phones and they want to be on screens. And it, it just speaks to how stimulating the younger the child is. The more they're stimulated by media, whether it's TV, media, or iPad media, the bigger the screen, the closer the screen, the more interactive the screen. So children are really, really drawn to it. And then it just kind of gets the parents in this loop of technology that they don't even realize is problematic until like middle school, when grades start coming in and they're sweet kids, you know, aren't able to make B's and A's. Speaker 1 (11:41): Yep, definitely. And then another thing is like, we, I know when my kids were younger in the first smartphones came out and I first had an iPhone, there was this tendency, you know, when you had to get things done around the house, just give them the phone to play with, you know? Yeah. And I had no idea that there would be any influence there. And I'd imagine like, if there's, if you're only giving it a short period of time, then not necessarily anything to worry about, but it's that making it, the babysitter type thing that we tend to get into to where, you know, it's becoming more and more and they're spending more and more time on it. Right. Speaker 3 (12:12): It really counteracts your intentions. It's not worth the babysitting short-term solution to have a really long-term addiction problem potentially going on, especially depending on the child and their needs. So, yeah. And you know what I love about the book that it just takes the pressure off of mom's parents. Like you're not crazy. Look in the book, like screen smart. Sam is having a problem with screens and too much time. This is what's going to happen. And it's not just like, you're a crazy person. Like mom, why can't I have a screen? Like everybody else is doing it. Literally all my friends have it. It's a great way, you know, to show kids like, no, actually this is what could happen. And you don't want to be like screened dumb Sam. Speaker 1 (13:00): I love that because we take so much of the burden on like my podcast being that mom has such a negative connotation and that's my movement is to try to turn around that connotation and make it a positive. So this is a way for us to take some of the pressure off of us. Right, right, right, Speaker 3 (13:17): Right. I didn't want an email. I screened dumb Sam, you know, fines finds the light at the end of the tunnel, but Speaker 1 (13:26): Wow. That's awesome. Speaker 3 (13:27): Yeah. It's a great story. And certainly there's 16 different aspects of screen time that it actually covers and 16 different solutions. So even though it's your standard, 32 page children's book, it really has a lot of information in it that I think parents will love to consider when they are raising their children. Speaker 1 (13:50): Yes. I think it is so awesome. So that's, I'm so glad that you were able to come on today. So when they want to get the book, they can go to screen smart families.org. And then is it also it's available on Amazon, right? Speaker 3 (14:01): Yeah. It's available on Amazon Barnes, noble target pretty much anywhere can order books and yeah. There's links on screen-time clinic too. We have that website and it's everywhere. Speaker 1 (14:14): Okay. That was the other thing I was going to ask you is tell me more about how they connect with you. In addition, I know you do more than just this book. So tell me more about what you do screen time clinic and all of that. Yeah. Speaker 3 (14:25): The screen time clinic is actually there to help parents. Once maybe you read a book like this and think, oh my goodness. Like, I don't even know where to start. I had no idea because there's so much information on the internet and there's so many books. I mean, it is just very time intensive to make yourself an expert in this area and really figure out what is going to work for your family and your particular situation. Because honestly, I was a single mom raising my kids most of the time. And, you know, we thought my son was on the autism spectrum, turns out it was just gaming addiction, but there's all sorts of things to consider. And at Screentime clinic, we have a network of coaches and you're one of them that people can choose from to connect with and really sit down and make a plan and talk through how are we going to handle screens in our home. And having a family media plan is really essential because these years go by so quick and you know, week by week, you just don't want it to take you by surprise it's way better to plan or make a new plan. It's never too late to start planning to. Speaker 1 (15:33): Awesome. Thank you so much for having all of that service. And I'm so glad that we connected. You actually reached out to me, I think on Instagram a couple months ago, but I'm so glad that we've connected and I appreciate you inviting me to be a part of your world and all that that you offer because this is a team effort. And what I like to always say, we have to have like a village in order to raise kids. Speaker 3 (15:54): Absolutely. Speaker 1 (15:55): Thanks so much for being a part of the village. Speaker 3 (15:58): You're welcome. Nice to partner and teamwork with you. Yeah. Speaker 1 (16:03): Yes. Okay. Well, thanks so much for joining me today and I will put links in the show notes so that people can get in touch with you and get in touch with this, getting your book in their hands. Very good. Speaker 3 (16:13): Thank you. Okay. Speaker 2 (16:18): Thanks for tuning in being that mom isn't easy, but together we can be that mom's strong. Don't forget to leave a review, connect on social and join Dolly's free community till next time. 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Brandon Turner is an Active Real Estate Investor, Entrepreneur, Writer, and Podcaster. He is a Nationally Recognised Leader in the Real Estate Education Space and Has Taught Millions of People how to Find, Finance, and Manage Real Estate Investments. Brandon is about to Release “The Multifamily Millionaire” Volume 1 and Volume 2  In this episode we talked about: Regulations and Lockdown: NYC vs Hawaii The process of Underwriting Deals Asset Class Comparison How Deals are Structured Specifics of Mobile Homes Scaling a portfolio Macroeconomic Trends Raising Capital for Private Equity Deals Selling the Fund “Multifamily Millionaire” book The Investment Philosophy of Open Door Capital Transcriptions: Speaker 0 (0s): Welcome to the working capital real estate podcast. My name is Jesper galley. And on this show, we discuss all things real estate with investors and experts in a variety of industries that impact real estate. Whether you're looking at your first investment or raising your first fund, join me and let's build that portfolio one square foot at a time. All right guys and gals, my name's Jennifer galley, and you're listening to working capital the real estate podcasts. We have a returning guest on the show, Brandon Turner. He was our first guests ever on the podcast. Brandon holds a lot of titles. He's an investor. He's a, one of those VPs that BiggerPockets, and most recently he is about to release the multifamily millionaire and brand of correct me if I'm wrong. That's volume one and volume two. That Speaker 1 (49s): Is correct. That's all. That's a great introduction, man. Look well done. Well done. Speaker 0 (53s): I appreciate it, man. Well, it's good to, it's good to talk to you. It's it's crazy to think that, oh man, what has it been? It's almost 70 episodes now. So a year and yeah, you're in change and change quite some time. You know, nothing's really happened in the world over the last a year and a half. So Speaker 1 (1m 9s): It's been a pretty, pretty lame couple of years here. Nothing's happened in the world. So I don't really talk about today. Speaker 0 (1m 14s): Yeah. Real quiet. Well, yeah, listen, thank you. As a, as always for, you know, giving your time here. I know it's always nice to talk to you. Catch up, see what's going on in your world and, and talk real estate. So maybe on, you know, on that note, it has been a urine change. How how's everything been going with you? I guess first and foremost, you know, you, the family, everybody's all good. Yeah. It's been Speaker 1 (1m 38s): A weird year. I mean, Hawaii was like kind of like, you'd go to the beach. I live in Maui for those who didn't know that, but I go to the beach and it was like empty. Like, you'd be the only one on the beach. And we went from that to now you go to the beach and there's people sitting on you like everywhere you go. So it was such a stark drastic change. So yeah, life has been weird. A real estate stuff has been nuts. I don't remember exactly what I had when I was on last time. But in the last 18 months, roughly we've picked up a, what is it like 10 or 12, large mobile home parks. We have 1700 units now that we bought in the last year. We have another 1800 under contract right now. So it'll be at 3,500 by the end of this year, which has been wow. Crazy. Yeah. I don't want from zero employees to, I think, 13 now. So it's been a, it's been a growth year and a half. I love the Speaker 0 (2m 24s): Unbanked up. Just, just pick up, I'm going to pick up some milk after this. That was Speaker 1 (2m 28s): A milk and some mobile home parks and a couple apartment complexes down in, you know, in, in, in Houston and you know, whatever. Very cool. Cool. Speaker 0 (2m 36s): So before we jump into that, cause I want to talk, talk about that and you know, some of the details there in, we talked a little bit about the, the lockdown, everything before the show in Hawaii. So you guys are, you know, I didn't even think about it until, you know, it jogged my memory when I was like, oh, I'm talking to Brandon. And that of all the people that come on the show, I kind of compare the, I guess you would say New York state or California to, you know, us north of the border in terms of how extreme they've been. Even though it hasn't been as extreme as our lockdowns, but it sounds like Hawaii was pretty, you know, pretty high up there in terms of the regulations and the lockdown. Yeah. Speaker 1 (3m 13s): A similar stuff to what you guys have. Like, they wouldn't let anybody in for a long time, like six months, they just wouldn't let people in the state hardly at all, unless you quarantine for two weeks. And it was pretty, pretty locked down in that way. So nobody really came. And then even like the mat, like we still wear masks everywhere. Pretty much here. We're like the one state left that. I mean, now everybody's wearing masks again, but yeah, that never really went away. I mean, you're outside for awhile. It was like, you had to wear a mask at the beach outside by yourself. That was weird to me all the time. I never, that was weird. Everyone. They're like what? And they were walking around, giving people tickets, if you were sitting on the beach alone without a mask and were like, you had to come over to me. I mean, I never got one, but you had to come over to people, get in their space, infect them with your disease to give them the ticket that like, what, how, how does this logically make sense? It didn't make sense. But finally they did away with the needing to have a mask on the beach, which was nice. We had Speaker 0 (4m 2s): A, there was a point definitely in, in Toronto where it was like, if you were outside jogging, there was like the public shaming of like people looking at you. Like what's going on over there. You're walking and jogging. Speaker 2 (4m 14s): Yeah. Oh yeah. There was, yeah, there was a Speaker 1 (4m 16s): Lot of that. So after the, you have to wear a mask everywhere, then it went to, you have to wear a mask if you're not exercising. So like there, their stories of people like riding their bike and they stopped for like, they just like stopped the bike from moving into copperheads, runs over and give them a ticket. He was like, come on, I stopped for a second to look at something or whatever. And they, yeah. So you had to pretend like when that happened, you had to pretend you were working all the time if you're outside. So somebody walks by, you're just like, you know, doing jumping jacks or something like I'm exercising, I'm exercising here by myself. Yeah. It was weird. Speaker 0 (4m 45s): Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know what, at the end of the day, it's, it's one of those things where at least, you know, as it relates to real estate, I am sure you have come across people in our industry that they, they saw, oh one or 2000, 2001 as their badge of honor or oh 8 0 9 as their badge of honor. Or if you go back further, you know, the, the early nineties in, in the real estate market, commercial real estate market in the states and Canada, and it just, you know, this is one of those things, were, it is a technical recession. And it's something that I think it will be a benefit to investors down the road because they will have to have dealt with things that, you know, they had never had to deal with in a lot of markets. Speaker 1 (5m 23s): Yeah, very much so. I mean like this is when, like it sucks to go through difficult times and insanely difficult as much as it's uncertain times. Right. There's just no certainty, but that also trains us to be better. You know, it makes us better people, better investors, smarter, more nimble, you get caught in this. Like everything's always going to be the way that it is right now. And you start forgetting that the world changes all the time. Like nobody forces anybody. That's why they call them black Swan events. Like they're just, they're so rare and you can't predict them. The only thing you can predict is that there's going to be unpredictable things. And so when we, instead we change our mindset around unpredictability and say, this is like, this is a life. So how can I be an investor that can handle unpredictability? And how can I be nimble and how can I be liquid and how can I be make this light and have a team? And like those things for us, I will be better investors because of 20, 21 and 2020, not worse. Speaker 0 (6m 17s): Yeah. I think there at least the way I saw the way people under, under wrote deals or are underwriting deals now, you know, the, the percentage you have in reserves, you know, will be, has been affected by a lot of investors. And I'm talking from, from just, you know, the mom and pop shops to institutional companies that we deal with that they're starting to think a little bit more about, you know, how levered do they want to be and just having outs because they don't want to be in a position where we have, you know, economic situation like we have had over the last year and kind of be, be caught, be caught in the rain there. Yeah. That's Speaker 1 (6m 55s): Exactly it. And I think again, yeah, hard times make good people. So it's Speaker 2 (7m 1s): So positive Speaker 0 (7m 2s): On your, on your agenda. It sounds, I mean, clearly there was a 3,500 units. You guys have been busy what I'd like to actually for, for listeners that don't know the asset class, you know, we've had people that come up have, come on the show before we get to the apartments. Just the actual moment, mobile home parks, especially for the listeners, you know, half of the listeners are, are, are Canadian half, roughly, half are in the states. And the mobile home park is, it's not a particularly large asset class at all in the Canadian market, but we always have people on and from the states. And I'd love to just get your, you know, what is it and how were the deal structures in terms of leasing as opposed to ownership and, and maybe how, how you stumbled, stumbled into that virtual. Sure. Speaker 1 (7m 48s): Yeah. So there's, there's a lot of different types of mobile home parks out there. I mean, there's RV parks and there's like combinations and there's mobile home parks. Where, where the, the, I mean, essentially we're talking mobile home for those who really have never heard of one before. We're talking about these little houses that are typically two, three bedroom, maybe one bedroom, they're typically 10 feet wide, 12 feet wide. They have double-wide 14 foot wide, or they have double wide ones, but they're like shells that you then put little rooms inside of it. And it's typically a cheaper building material to be typically a flat roof. Not all, always there are really popular back in like the fifties. They, they started getting prevalent here in north America and there's millions of them. Units, not properties of millions of people in America still live in mobile home parks. And in Canada, some do again, they're not as popular, but they are up there and they come across our plate. Occasionally we don't buy them there, but just cause it's not our, we don't, we don't know what we're doing there. So I'm a big believer in having a focus, interrupt Speaker 0 (8m 43s): You for just one second on that. I'm just curious. Are you, are they predominantly in Eastern Western Canada? Like were where have you seen deals come up? I've Speaker 1 (8m 51s): Seen him all over the place in Canada. Yeah. I've seen some, I've got someone was to, is that the name? Yeah. So I've seen them there. I've seen some out east, maybe one or two have ever crossed my plate. We don't get them. They're so rare. And they're also, sometimes they're usually more on the RV park side where it's, somebody has a bunch of RVs and maybe they put a bunch of mobile homes on them, but they're not real great in cold weather. They do them. I mean, we buy them in Minnesota. We buy them, whatever, but they just don't work quite as well in, in cold weather. So I got my first one was in Maine. So it's definitely possible. Maine is the cold north, about as cold and north as you can get in in America. Okay. Speaker 0 (9m 29s): So we're, we're on the, we're on the mobile home parks where these are the smaller houses, millions of millions of people in the U S are still live in these. What, what kind of, you mentioned there's a, there's different variety of these. Speaker 1 (9m 43s): Like sometimes the owner will own the land and the homes and they just rent the homes out. That's that that's done. I don't like that model because mobile homes tend to break easier. They're one step. They're like a cross between a car and a half a house. And when we say mobile homes, typically they don't move. I mean, they can move, but it's not like, oh, it's not like an RV or a motor home or whatever you call them. Do you guys call them RVs and RV or motor? So, okay. Yeah. So same terminology. So it's not like that where you just like pick up and drive it. They have to be moved on the trailer. You have to put wheels on them and they require between five and $10,000 to move them. So they're not, they don't get moved very often, but they are movable. And so sometimes the land, again, the owner will own the land and that, and they'll rent them, but they're usually not very good quality. They break easier. And so I don't like telling them, I'd rather have a tenant who can go and fix his own toilet for, you know, $30 rather than me having to fix a toilet for $400 with a plumber. Because knowing that things are going to break a little more often and there's a little more, you know, they're a little thinner walls and a little bit thinner studs and a little bit thinner, everything a little bit, just not as good quality wise. It's like a traditional stick built house. So we like to buy them where we own the land and the tenant owns their own house and the tenant, maybe they moved the house in. Maybe it's been there all along. Maybe we buy a house, we move it in and we sell it to a tenant and they buy it and they own it then. And the beauty of that is that they're just paying lot rent. Like they're just paying for the right to have their house on my lot. And typical lot rent is 250, 300 5400, maybe on the high end. I think we have some nicer parks that might be up to like 600, but most of them are usually in the $300 range that they pay for the right to have their property there. Then they typically pay their own water and sewer bills. It's just like, they own a house, but they have to pay to keep their house somewhere. And it's a relatively low-income way. Like it kind of addresses a low-income problem in America, which there's just not enough housing. In fact, I was looking up some stats today and it's like 30 or 40%. Okay, let me, let me, I'll read it to exactly. It was from the, where is it? One more, the national low income housing coalition. They put out a report and it said that 40 was say 40%, 44% of all workers, 18 to four are low wage workers in America. So 44% of everyone who works is making a, what they call it a low wage. There's 38 million Americans in poverty. There's 36. So it says for every hundred, extremely low renter households, like poverty households for every hundred of them, there's only 36 affordable properties in America. So in other words, the majority of those people can't afford to live. And so they're having to live multiple people in one house. So this kind of addresses that it's like, Hey, you can, you can live here for 300 bucks a month or maybe 600. If you're going to pay for the house as well, you're gonna make a payment for the house, which is how we oftentimes will do it. But yeah, so there, it addresses that problem of low-income it creates kind of community feel a lot of mobile home parks have a stigma because there's has been a lot of bad management of mobile home parks has been a lot of violence. You get, when you get low income people, it tends to drive more drama and violence for whatever reason. And so we buy them, we fix them up, we make them nicer and then we make money. Speaker 0 (12m 55s): So ma maybe walk us through what it would look like. So you have, you're looking at the type that we're, you have somebody that will actually own their unit. Right. And then pay you basically some right to be on that, on that land. Is that right? Yeah. Speaker 1 (13m 10s): Yeah. So they own their own house. Typically. That's what we want. We don't want to own the house. So yeah, they own the house. They pass through 300 bucks a month that they pay their own water bill. And the cool thing I like about these is that they don't, the cashflow can be very stable because I don't like the water bill. Doesn't go up and down the sewer bill. Like people stay for a long time. Cause it's so expensive to move a home. They don't want to leave. It's their home. They're not gonna leave it on like an apartment where people leave every two years, a mobile home park, they might stay for five or six or seven years on average. And so we get much more predictable, stable cashflow that I like to say is very recession resistant. And I say that like this, let's say the market crash. We have a big recession and you're a millennial living in Toronto and you're paying $3,200 a month for rent. I don't know what rent is, are five grand per month for rent four grand a month for rent. So let's say your $4,000 a month rent during a recession. You're like, oh, I got to tighten my belt here. I gotta, I gotta say some money. Those $4,000 a month people they're not going to suddenly start paying 1200 bucks a month over in the worst part of town. Right? What are they going to do? They're going to tighten their belt and they're gonna go from 4,000 to 3,500, the 3,500 people. They're gonna be like, oh yeah, tight times. I'm gonna go down to 3000. And, and everybody, it condenses from the top down, but it's not like the people paying 300 bucks a month are going to go, well, I got to go live under a bridge that they just keep paying it. It can press us from the top down. And so I would be worried about owning a rental with $4,000 a month, rents in a recession, knowing that there's, who's going to rent that in bad times, those people get stuck and you have to drop the rents down to 3000 and Ellison. Their NOI is just in the, in the hole and they're upside down. I like the mobile home parks because it's a much smaller number, but let's say you have average lot rent. You buy a property or average lot rent is $200 a month, which is not an uncommon thing. And you raise the rent over the next couple of years to $300. You're only raising a 100 bucks, but what did you actually do percentage wise to the NOI? You increased it 50%. Imagine buying an apartment, increasing your, your rent 50%. Like that's a, that's a huge jump that you'd be on the front page of every newspaper for, you know, gentrification and, and kicking out tenants. But we're talking about a hundred dollars can make a 50% difference in your NOI. So it allows for pretty massive growth in an industry where cap rates are the same as they are in apartment complexes. So if you're buying at a four cap or a five cap, you can do some dramatic increases with value edges by, by raising rent or by infilling putting more units into it. Yeah. Speaker 0 (15m 39s): I think it speaks to, to the last, whatever the, during COVID a lot of the AAA A-class property that, you know, took the, took the hit, right. That's where it first took off, took it on the chin because you know, you're not, you're not thinking, like you said, of, of doing four or $5,000 rent for a two or three bedroom anymore, you're doing, you know, you're going to break down to be class and then the bees are going to come to see, but you're right. See, doesn't just, Speaker 2 (16m 2s): You know, they're still around. They're still around. Yeah. Speaker 0 (16m 4s): So in, you know what, the, the thing for me, conceptually, I've always tried to understand with the, the mobile home parks you're talking about is that when you have an apartment building, say it's a 50 unit apartment building. Part of the strategy is the rent. Clearly the other one is the, how you allocate your capital. As it relates to, you know, say there's equity appreciation. You have a, a capital event you refinance in five years, take that money out. And you know, in, in, you know, play with the equity component, how does it work in mobile home parks when you're taking on, you're taking this kind of rent that they're going to give you because they have the lot, but you technically don't own the, the, the structures. Do you own the land? Yeah, we Speaker 1 (16m 46s): Own the land. And so it really works the exact same way. I mean, we, we treat it exactly like you would buy an apartment complex. Like there's really no differences other than the fact that you don't have to send in a plumber to fix the toilet. The tenant takes care of their own. And we still deal with a lot of rehab stuff because we're constantly buying houses. Our strategy is actually not the jack-up rent. Like that's actually some, some companies, this is where mobile home parks get a bad name. They will buy a property where a lot rent is $200. They will then go in and they'll Jack the rent to 500 and they'll say, well, tenant, what are you going to do? You can't afford to move your house. So screw you. That's what people and like, it's, it's sad. I understand it's capitalism. This is how it works. Right? The, the, the it's business of whatever, but it still hurts. And I don't, I don't like that. What I would rather do is say, Hey, your lot rent is $200 a month. Okay, fine. We're raising at the 2 25 and the next year or two 50 next year, maybe 2 78. So we raise it over time. But what we want to buy is we want to buy a property that's 80% occupied and make it a hundred percent occupied because unlike multifamily, let's say you like, you buy an apartment complex. And then I buy apartments too. I'm not saying they're bad, but if you go and shop for an apartment right now, and it is 80% occupied, you are likely pain and like cap rate as if it was completely full, because they will assume, oh yeah, you're just going to add those 20 units, you know, 20%. And you'll be fine. So you're paying actually for those units that are empty on a mobile home park. That's typically not the case. If it's an empty lot, it's not included anywhere. Even in the brokers, like the pro forma, it's not included in there. It's just like, yeah, that's not rented. So we're not including that. So you were literally buying them for the value of a 70% occupied property. And so when we add in those 30 more percent or 24% or whatever, it dramatically increases the value of our property. So now we're combining slow rent raises that keep our tenants like, you know, taking care of them with this idea of infill. And so combining the two together creates a pretty massive increase in NOI, which then allows us to refinance, do the same stuff, take out capital or sell a few years later and take a, you know, property that you bought for 5 million and go ahead and sell it for 10, three years later. It's like, those are doable things. Speaker 0 (18m 54s): Yeah. It's like truly you're creative in the, in the sense that you're going to actually bring each, you know, vacancy, whether it's 20 or 30% actually value add dollar for dollar. So of that 3,500 Brandon, the, so that was all in the last year, year and a half. And what percentage of that, or how many units of that are, or if any, are apartment buildings as opposed to mobile, mobile home parks. So the Speaker 1 (19m 18s): Apartments, the apartments we have, we haven't closed on yet, but it will out of it because 3,500 is the ones that we have under contract and the ones we own. So all we've closed on so far since I, you know, the last two years have been mobile home parks, that's like 1700, the other 1800 out of them. About half of that, is it a park is an apartment. So I think there's three in Colorado and one in Houston that we're buying. So total, maybe 700 units combined of all of that. And so, and I like the apartment stuff too. There's nothing wrong with it. And it's great. And I want to do a lot more of it. In fact, it's way more scalable. This is why we actually going into it. There are only 50,000 mobile home parks in the entire country or in north America that are left 50,000 of them. And that might sound like a lot, but there's more multi-family in Houston than there are mobile home parks in the country. Yeah. Small number. I Speaker 0 (20m 3s): Was going to say in the states, I can't remember the latest stats, but it's something like 25 million units in the country or something like a apartment. Cause I think that the actual housing units is like 50 million or something, but the, we were talking with Jay Scott, he was on the podcast a couple months ago, or maybe yeah, maybe a month ago. He, and he was talking about that sweet spot when it comes to multi-family where he's like, you know, the smaller multi families are great. You can find good property management. He's like the big, big stuff, you know, 80 plus a hundred plus is great. Cause you, you know, you can hire one or two full-time people. You can have a really qualified management and he's like, it's that stuff in the middle. He's like, it's very challenging to have good management. Speaker 2 (20m 44s): So maybe on that yeah. Speaker 0 (20m 47s): On that point for, for you scaling. So th th those sound to me, like still pretty expensive markets, Houston and Colorado. Right. Speaker 1 (20m 56s): They, they are, but there's also, that's where everyone's moving to. And so that's why we, like, we're looking down the road, like where is the macro economic drivers happening? And it's in those cities, like, it's the Nashville, it's the Austin, it's the Houston, it's the Denver. And so if we can find a deal, that's pretty good. I think we'll be able to, I mean, we're not, we're not buying based on appreciation, but I think we've got a really good shot on appreciation because of just the population growth. And the fact does not build in enough in those areas. And so that's why we've kind of focused to the apartment side, like mobile home parks. We have our criteria for location, but it's not as strict as apartments because like even in a smaller area or an area that's not massively growing, there's always going to be a low-income people. They need a place to live. And so I'm not worried about that on the apartment side though, like I want to make sure that we're about a 500 unit apartment building. I want that area to be going up in value because I need appreciation to play a piece in the growth versus mobile home parks. I don't really need appreciation to play as much of a piece. That's kind of more of a cashflow game and a, and a forced appreciation game. So, yeah, it's challenging Speaker 0 (22m 1s): Too. I mean, if you have investors, you know, you, at the end of the day, we, we talked about this last time cashflow is, is crucial and you don't want to just, just bank on appreciation in any way. But the reality is when you have investors and you're showing them some exit cap rate, some, you know, something that influences IRR, you have to, you have to factor that in. And hopefully you're in a, in a market where you can justify that and illustrate that to them. Speaker 1 (22m 25s): Exactly. Yeah. So if we're, if we're projecting, let's call it 3% per year appreciation. If we're going to say that, like, I would feel comfortable saying that in Houston, I would not feel comfortable saying that in Cleveland. Right? Like, I'd be like, that would be a stretch. And at the end of the day, like we're only as good as our last deal. If we start doing crappy, like, you know, giving, you know, 3% IRR because we, we underwrite a F on the road, underwritten, underwritten by underwrit underwrote eighth, like a 5% per year growth. And really we're in an area that's losing 2% every year. That's a problem. So that's why we're betting on the better markets. Yeah. You don't want a Speaker 0 (23m 1s): Hundred unit apartment building in Buffalo with a hockey stick graph for, for appreciation. So what, what is your, you know, call it apartment perfect apartment avatar in terms of unit count, some of the economics, maybe some of those macro economic trends you're talking about. Yeah. I mean, Speaker 1 (23m 21s): The big, the biggest thing that we look for is the, a we're looking for the population growth. Like we care a lot about that. We care about the, a decent amount of what the landlord tenant laws of the area. We'd like it to be a little bit easier. I don't want to be in California or Hawaii for those reasons. I mean, everything's got a price, right? If you buy a good enough deal, maybe I'd survive California. But I prefer that a unit size, anything over a lots, I mean, a hundred lots or a hundred units, depending on if it's apartment, I don't want the middle, that middle spot. It's too hard. Right. I want to be able to have staff and to have people, I want a clear path for a forest appreciation. I like value. And I'm not saying I want to buy a completely junk or property. I like to have cash flow today. We call them cash growth deals, one word, cash growth. It means like you get cashflow from year one. I'm not doing development. I'm not doing projects that won't make any money. I want to make money from day one from year one. But I also want a clear path for growth in a value. That's not dependent just upon, let's do 3% per year for appreciation. Absolutely. Right. So yeah, the property we bought in Houston and they we're buying in Houston right now, there's 530 units, but three of them have been 300 of them have been completely remodeled and are achieving a way, way higher rent. So we have a very clear path, okay. The other 200 or whatever, two 30, we're going to remodel them. And now we can get the same rent that these other 300 are add. So I don't have to guess on, like, I wonder what will happen if I remodel this unit. So we have a very clear path towards growth and it's in a great area. It's got all of their benefits to it, but yeah, and for me right now, bigger is better because we, we can raise money better than most people can because of my position, you know, in the, in the world of BiggerPockets and everything. So it, it takes less work to buy a 500 unit property than it does to buy a 12 unit property. I don't know why, but it's just the way that it is. And so I would rather buy a big deal since I can afford it, then buy a little deal. It's just way, way more bang for way little effort. Yeah. Speaker 0 (25m 17s): So the, the Houston market right now, w like, where would you guys be in on a per unit? Is it, are they in the 200,000 per unit range? Are they generally, Speaker 1 (25m 26s): Yeah, generally in the 200, 220,000 range, we're buying ours at one 18 and still, like, we felt pretty good about that. And again, it's a larger deal, which you can tend to get a little bit lower cost per door, but yeah, we're buying out like one 18. And so I think we got a lot of, a lot of room. Yeah. Growth. Speaker 0 (25m 41s): Our are at the, at the brokerage house I work with. I think we're on average now Toronto's is just kinda gone insane. We're at 300, 330,000, and those are the big, those are big ones. Those, those aren't like, yeah, it's, it's pretty crazy. But yeah, I mean, that's, that's good to hear that there's still deals like even in, in a good markets in Texas, because I totally share your view on the, the landlord tenant or the regular regulatory framework, because like you were saying before, at the end of the day, there's there's extremes, right. You don't want to just Jack up somebody's rent three times, but you also don't want to, you know, with rent stabilization in New York rent stabilization. And I believe DC in California, you know, 1.2% a year is it's kind of a joke. And, and like, it's it's to me and I won't, I won't get into it, but it's fairly paternalistic to say that people can con can't contract on their own. You know, it's not it's of like consumer protection laws, everybody, all of a sudden is a little old lady that can't can't help herself, which obviously we've got to look out for those people. But anyways, the, so these deals, I want to talk a little bit about how you started in terms of the structure of how you you're raising capital for these deals. You mentioned the bigger pockets, because, you know, if these are syndicated or private equity deals, it seems like you're using I guess, 5 0 6 C or are you where you're, you're able to kind of advertise. Maybe you could talk a little bit about that. Speaker 1 (27m 16s): Yeah. So we got the file of six B and five or six C options. Right. I don't know. Do you guys have those in, in Canada Speaker 0 (27m 20s): Or call them national instruments, but they're very similar. There's, you know, credit investor or family and friends, all that jazz. Speaker 1 (27m 27s): Exactly. Yeah. So we, most investors started the 5 0 6 B level in America and they family and friends, they start there. We kind of just started with C because of my position on the podcast and having a big platform. And I got a quarter million followers on Instagram. And so we, we just, I have to be able to advertise. And so we went, we went five with 60. It means we can't take unaccredited money or non-accredited money, but that's okay for now. Maybe we'll figure that out in the future with, they have things called the reg A's, which allow for both, but I probably won't go that route. Was that okay? Was that Speaker 0 (27m 55s): Kind of the grant Cardone? Like that's the root cause? Cause there was, there was like, I think there was as low as like five grand or 10 grand. Okay. And here's why Speaker 1 (28m 4s): I don't want to go reggae, but here's the, here's the truth. Like grant Cardone got sued. I don't know if you'd knew he got sued by a guy who put in 10 grand. Like he didn't get sued by the guy that put in a million. He got sued by the guy put in 10 grand. And like, I'm sure that I don't know where the lawsuit ended up. I don't know much about it. Other than that, I heard about it and they probably will settle or did settle. I don't know. But that's the annoying when you bring in uneducated money and unaccredited money, you get the people who are like, well, he said where I was going to make 15% every year. And I only made 3% this year. And he's like, yeah. I said, IRR, like over time and the it's IRR, like that's where, that's where you get those people. The more money people put into my fund, the less questions I ask, just a phenomenon that I love. And it's the people that put in 30 grand that are asking all the questions and the people that put in the millionaire, like where do I send my money? Yeah. Which is great. You keep sending me emails. Can you stop sending me money? Yeah, exactly. So five. So we did file a six C we on, on the first, I mean on everything we've done has been five or six C's or we did funds for the part. We do funds for the mobile home parks, because the average price of a mobile home park is three to $4 million. We've steadily increased that because we want larger and larger properties. It's now like right now, our average this quarter, I think is like seven, but there's still smaller deals. And so I don't want to just put plus their mobile home parks with people view as a little riskier. And so I don't think they are, but people view them that way. So if we package multiple ones together, everyone feels better and it's a bigger amount of money and it's less paperwork. So what typically put fi between three and seven parks into one fund, probably average of five. And for example, our newest, we raised $19 million on fund four. It was a 19 and a half minute. Well, it was a $20 million raise. We shut it off and money has been trickling in the last few days. And we're at 19. I think we're just gonna call it good. Cause that's about what we need to close on the five or six parks we have ready to close. So that's how we do that side. Speaker 0 (30m 1s): So I'm curious. I was, I was listening to, I can't remember what podcasts now, but it was a, it was talking about the funds and I was, I was explaining it to a colleague of mine that, you know, there's, there's callable capital, you know, there, there is capital where you actually have to, you have it fully invested and then you better have pretty or, you know, they actually give you the money. So you better have pretty good deal flow. If you're going to have money sitting somewhere, how do you structure it in terms like, do you have a commitment that they have to actually give and then it's called. And then the second question, when you actually have investors that do that, do you have a, a percentage allocation that they make or is it kind of first come first serve? Speaker 2 (30m 45s): So we Speaker 1 (30m 46s): Do a little bit of a hybrid, but basically we, we raise all the money to begin with and we just have good deal flow. Yeah. We are very meticulous on our outreach, on our broker relations on our off-market search. We're very detailed and very systematized in it. And so for example, we like, we get 10 point, whatever percent of our offers accepted. We just like, we just get that. We just like, so we're like, okay, so we made 74 offers or whatever it was. Or 76 offers, I think 74 offers. And I'm like that in quarter two and we got seven offers accepted. And so like, we just know that like, we're pretty, we're pretty like straight when it comes to our funnel and, and we treat it very much like a business. So I feel like our deal flow has been, been pretty predictable as from the beginning. Now there are, there have definitely been moments where we're like, okay, well we got $6 million sitting in an account right now and we don't have any properties. This is like, we're just losing money right now. And like, we're draining, like our investor returns are going to drop a little bit, but it's not as substantial as people might think, like over a five or seven year, time period, if you have money. Yeah. It moves out. If you have money sitting for six months doing nothing, it might drop your IRR by a quarter percent. Like it's not a, it's not the end of the world that said that hasn't really happened when we just continually, we typically what we want to say hybrid, what we kind of do is we raise in, in chunks based on what we need at the moment. Right. So like, or what we think we're going to get. And so it sounded like we'll have a $20 million fund and then we'll go raise like a bunch when we launch and we'll have five or six or 7 million with trickle in. And then we'll start using that with our buying properties. And then it's like, okay, we're getting kind of low, better put on the gas again. And then we'll go and I'll talk about it on my Instagram and on my podcast. And all of a sudden more money comes in and then we pull off the gas. And so we can, we can throttle it based on what we kind of need. And that's been really helpful. The downside is that means we're typically raising for blind funds. It means that people that we can't say here's a property. This is what the numbers are. Instead. It's like, this is the team. Trust us. We're going to take this take care of you. And that's a little bit harder sell. So it takes a little longer, but as we will, the track record, and as we get more and more deals, we start going full cycle on. I think that'll be easier. So we've raised $75 million in the past 13 months or something like that. Yeah. Thanks. Yeah, it's been, it's been crazy, but I think that's just the beginning of what we could do. Cause now, like we're looking at selling our first fund and we're moving into the next. And so like as we get that track record and we say, look, what we did over here, it's going to be easier and easier to be able to have people trust us. And then the apartments a lot easier in terms of like, this is the apartment and those are, those are one-off deals that we can explore. Speaker 0 (33m 23s): Yeah. The a I'm reading the a hands-off investor. And we had, we had Brian, Brian on the show for, on Burke for anybody that, that wants to look it up. And he, he, he said, you know, you said trust. He's like the fund is the trust vehicle. He's like, that's what the fund is. You know, the building, if it's a syndicated one-off, you can go, you can touch it here it is. But like you said, it's, here's our investment philosophy. Here's our track record. Here's the team trust us. So on that, on that point. So 75 million that's raised for that. And you're talking about now potentially selling the fund. So the fund, would that be the mobile on a mobile home site? Speaker 1 (34m 0s): The first one we've done for mobile home parks. So it's our first one was small. It was only five, $5 million. I think total, we raised, maybe it was four. And then we bought, you know, $8 million with the real estate. And so we're looking, or I don't know what it was somewhere in there. And so now we're looking to sell that one. In fact, we should have decided for sure, we're not, we're not a hundred percent committed to it because I think there's still a lot of meat on the bone of a we're only selling it. So we can say, look what we did. We've got a track record. We've gone full cycle now in our, in our first fund. Now we can go to the next level, but I don't really, I'd rather not say, I think we can make more longterm if we don't, but I need the reputation that to grow. So yeah, I'm the Speaker 0 (34m 33s): Same way. True real estate guys. No, no, no, no, no. I never saw, so I'm like, I don't Speaker 1 (34m 37s): Want to sell it. There's so much there. And I think we're, it's such a good point. Yeah. Right now in the market to buy. Yeah. I think we're going to see. Yeah. So when Speaker 0 (34m 44s): You, the logical buyers for that, so it would be kind of a portfolio sale of whatever assets are rolled up in that fund. And, and then I assume it would be the same down the road for, for the apartments. And on that note, just on exits, you know, when you talk to investors, for instance, you know, stuff that you're purchasing say 20, 21, 20 22, when you talk to investors and I'm sure you get the question, like everybody in our world gets is, you know, what's, what's the exit strategy when, you know, when do we realize a return? What, you know, what constitutes a capital event, you know, and how did they get the return of capital? What do you, what do you kind of, what do you do with these, these funds on the apartment side now? Speaker 1 (35m 27s): Yeah, on the apartment side, as a side, typically say five to seven years is our expectation, but I always make the disclaimer. I don't want a thing. I said five years to go to when we sell, I want performance today, state when we sell. So if that means we're going to do it in four years or seven years or nine years or five years, like if you can't be flexible, then we don't want your money. And we're very blunt about that. Like, we want to work with people who are flexible enough because we it's all about managing expectations. If I said five years and then it was six. And then you get a bunch of mad people. But if I said six, they'd be fine. It's all expectation management there. So kind Speaker 0 (36m 1s): Of like you were talking, I don't know if it was before the show or at the beginning of the badge of honor of going through certain recessions where some investors won't invest with people, if they haven't gone through, you know, some sort of financial or economic calamity, but it is one of those things with, you know, if you said to investor, I don't want something five years ago that I say, I said in 2015 to dictate and, and you know, COVID happens and now, and now I have to, you know, commit to that. Five-year. Speaker 1 (36m 27s): Yup. And so I'd rather give, I would rather give myself some flexibility. So on the apartment size and on the mobile home park side, both of those, we say five to seven or we like, we're flexible, be flexible with us and let's just make sure we're getting the maximized return that we can get everyone the most amount of money because that's what matters. Speaker 0 (36m 44s): That's awesome. All right, Brendan, I want to shift gears, you know, time flies when, when we're chatting and I want to talk a little bit about the book you mentioned, correct me if I'm wrong. August mid August. Speaker 1 (36m 55s): I think it's mid August, 1918. Something like that comes out. Yeah. I should know that exact date, but it's moved a few times. Speaker 0 (37m 1s): So yeah, for listeners, a little bit of the backgrounds for the book I know is I assume it's under the BP brand a lot. You guys always have great, great content, great books. I'm sure you got some amazing Amazon stats for all those books, but yeah. Give us a little bit of a background on it. Speaker 1 (37m 16s): Yeah. So the, the, it started with Brian Murray, who was my partner and opened our capital. We invest in the multifamily together. I was talking about how, like there's no like S like book that we thought could be like the definitive book on just multifamily, residential multifamily, real estate. And so we started talking about, well, maybe we should write one. Maybe we should talk about this. I mean, he's written one on commercial real estate before, and it included apartment stuff, but it was just more on general, large commercial. And then I've written obviously like a bunch of books on residential, but it was, it was very wide. And so we thought, how do we go a mile deep on one topic that's very popular right now is commercial and or sorry, apartments. And as we did that, we realized we couldn't do that because multi-family when I say multi-family, some people think duplex and some people think 300 unit apartment complex. And that the truth is they are very different, very different, right. Every, and so where do you draw the line? And, and, and at first went, okay, well, four units in smaller is residential and five units or greater as commercial. Okay, well, who's syndicating a five unit property. No one is right. Yes. The financing is a little bit different, but that the game is the same. If you're buying a three unit or a five unit, or even an eight unit or a 12 unit, it's all kind of the same. So where do you draw the line? And I'm like, I don't, I don't know. But at the same time you could syndicate a duplex if you want it to. And you could have a team that buys duplexes. So it's not unit number. And so we define it as approach. There's two approaches to real estate. There's small, multi-family real estate approach and there's large multifamily approach. And the way the best, I mean, there's a bunch of definitions we've defined here, but the one I like the most is if you know your tenants names, you're probably a small multifamily investor. If you don't, you're probably large, right. Because if you you're, if you don't know who your tenants are, it means you've got people in place. You've got systems, you've got teams, you're probably raising the money for it. You're probably got quarterly meetings and you're issuing distributions and all that stuff. That's the large game. So we wrote two volumes that are like, I wrote most of the first one with some input from Brian. He wrote most of the second one, some input from me. And so volume one is on small deals, like how to buy that first apartment. I mean, the first, you know, duplex fourplex, eight unit, 20 unit, how to self-manage or find a local property manager. And then his book is more on like, how do you build a team? How do you syndicate? How do you raise money? What's a mezzanine debt. What does that mean? Like all those things that are on the, on the larger scale. And so we're just launching them together at the same time. Cause most people are probably gonna end up going from book one to book two over the course of their career. So that's, that's the books. Speaker 0 (39m 42s): That's, that's probably the direction you want to go. And I really, I liked the, the breakdown of that because it kind of gets to the, the, the different markets that we have, you know, like we were just talking before a very expensive markets, whether they're in the states or Canada, when I hear somebody's bought, you know, X amount of units for 5 million, you know, and that gets you, like you're saying before, like a six unit in, in a certain market. And it's like, well, you know, raising $5 million, you could definitely syndicate a $5 million deal. You're raising, you know, whatever it is, you know, a couple million dollars worth of worth of equity. Whereas, you know, that size unit deal would be like a couple hundred thousand dollars in, in some small markets. So I like that. That's, that's really cool. So the book itself, the, the volumes, it sounds like kind of the progression for each one is the same. Like, are they structured relatively the same? So that they're kind of a companion. Yeah. Pretty Speaker 1 (40m 34s): Similar. So, you know, you walk through all the basics that you'd get. So how to find, you know, how to, how to build them, how to build a business plan around it. Like what, what are you gonna do? How do we make that real? So I'm a big believer when I write books, I love to make things real for people. So not just theory, but like, let me, let me show you how this plays out in real life. So for example, I have a chapter in there called like, oh, shoot, what's the title of it, basically like financial freedom in five years. I think like that. And it basically walks people through a, let me see if that's actually correct on the title. I know we changed that a little bit. Yeah. Financial freedom in five years. And it walks through a concept that's a little bit complicated, but the idea being a lot of people are overwhelmed by the idea of owning a 20 unit or a 50 unit. It's like, that's so many units. I'm just getting started. How I do that. I'm like, don't worry about the 50 unit, but it doesn't mean you have to be stuck on single family. So imagine you bought a duplex this year and I walked people through the story. Like you bought a duplex, here's what it makes. Here's how much it brings in. Wow. You're making $300 a month in cashflow. Good job. Like, but that, that first deal is so important for forging your identity. And then next you buy maybe a five unit and then maybe a 10 unit and then maybe a 30 unit and then maybe 50 unit. And so that concept really shows you that in five years you could get to like five, 10, $15,000 a month in passive income and you just scale up slowly. And so I could tell somebody that, or I could paint it into a picture. So that's an example where I, I did that in and then walk through the chapters, obviously like how to find deals, how to fund them off market on market, how to, how to finance them some creative strategies. I spent a lot of time talking about the different types of multi-family like, you know, like the monster house, which is like, those single family has been converted into like Frankenstein Frankenstein. Exactly. They just add on units here and there. Like how many of us have those? I have a few of them still where they're like, they were not meant to be a multifamily, but they've made them there and I've walked through the pros and cons. And like, how, like, how do you deal with that? Or the side-by-side like, I love side-by-side duplexes and triplexes and fourplexes. Cause the water meters can be separated usually. So you can shift the water under the tenant, like that little tip, like things like that versus a up and down duplex where the water meters are all pro all the water lines are connected together and it gets really difficult to separate. So there's a lot of like specific about that in, in the books. Yeah. Speaker 0 (42m 38s): That's very cool. Yeah. It just kind of got me thinking too, like we don't have Costech here. I don't think you're actually allowed to, but, but separately meters is like, it's huge. Right? When if you can get everything where suddenly your expense ratio goes from 50 to 30%. Speaker 1 (42m 52s): Yeah. Yeah. And, and there are property types that allow for that easier than others and there's rubs and there's all that like that you can throw in there. But yeah. It's like knowing those little intricacies that, that can make or break a multi-family that's, what's kind of the goal. Yeah. Speaker 0 (43m 4s): Yeah. No, you know what? I think it's not cost sake. Really. It's a ratio. Utility billing is rubs, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's I know there are certain states allow for it to like certain ones. Yeah. So that's cool. Different, different building style and yeah, just a it's funny when you talk about scaling, it's so true. It's so much easier to, or at least, you know, I'm a visual person. So to me, stories are the, the visual words and you can kind of conceptualize it, but it's so true that when you come to somebody that says, Hey, a 30 unit until you do do a 30 or 10 15, whatever it is, it's you don't realize that it's actually less of a headache because then, you know, you can have support. Whereas you buy that one or two, it's like, it's more of a headache. Cause it's all you. No, Speaker 1 (43m 50s): I bought, I bought a condo, a single condo here in Maui recently, not one condo has been more work than 3,500 units combined. Like it's insane. It's insane that that's, I'm saying that, but one little condo is more worth than 3,500 units and it doesn't Speaker 0 (44m 5s): Yeah, 100%. Cause like you're, you're like, what did I do Tuesday? Some reason I was on the phone with a utility company for two hours. Speaker 1 (44m 11s): Yeah, yeah, exactly what that is. It's constant problems and contractors not showing up. And of course it's not big enough for me. I just have a team to take care of the whole thing. So I just gotta do it. And I'm like, what am I doing? Like, this is stupid. Speaker 0 (44m 23s): Yeah. And you know, it's w where are you talking about kind of growing to that, you know, you forge your identity to that. I think it's very much like a startup company and a lot of times the CEO or the founder of the company, although talented and we're in, we're in basically integral to having that company become something may not be the best person. Once it's an enterprise, as the manager, you know, where you have more people that may be more system oriented systematized or system oriented, but that's really cool. I, yeah, it sounds good. So we'll, we'll take a look out for that. And if, you know, we release this after that, we'll put a, put a link up to it. So I just, I want to be respectful of your time, Brandon. I just want to let listeners know for Opendoor capital. And I'm just curious personally, what, you know, what do you tell people that are interested? Want to learn more, want to see what you're up to? And like you said, who is the team and what is the investment philosophy? Where should they head to? Speaker 1 (45m 20s): Yeah, so we do something kind of different. So what we do is we go to an intersection. If you want to give us money, you have to put it in a briefcase, all cash. You go to intersection, we cross the busy intersection, you dropped the bag, we dropped the cash, you dropped the cash. We give you a little bit of a piece of paper and we're all good. Just no cops, there Speaker 0 (45m 36s): Must be no, my cousins or something. Speaker 1 (45m 37s): Exactly. Yeah. You got like tip your hat twice. That's how we notice you. Yep. Yep. That's it. ODC fun.com is our website. We put everything on there. Yeah. ODC fund, which I probably need a new website because now we don't just do funds. So now it's like ODC fun. Maybe we'll be OTC fun. Have fun with ODC Speaker 0 (45m 57s): GoDaddy page. Exactly. Speaker 1 (45m 59s): Yep. We have OTC fund. We put a lot of stuff there. I'm, I'm super active on Instagram. And so here's an interesting point for anybody listening to this that wants to eventually raise money is that I once had an investor say to me, the reason I invested in Opendoor capital is because of the way you talk about your wife. And that was such an impactful statement for me because not, not patting myself on my back here, what I'm saying is like, people are not investing in twin Oaks, mobile home park in Ohio, like whatever, like they're not investing in that. They don't know about that. They're investing in my ability to do what I say I'm going to do. And so you are marketing yourself every second of every day in every interaction that you have in the public. So the way you promote the way you talk about your family on Instagram or on Facebook and the way you comment on other people's stuff, all of that is showing the world, what kind of person you are, can you be trusted? And five years later that people are gonna look back and say, like, I have been following you for years online. And I respect the way you do business, the way that you respond to people or the way that you're kind of the way that you're smart. So anyway, that's a, that's a big thing. So I knew I try to put my life on Instagram and a lot of ways, which sometimes gets me in a little trouble, but it's good. Like when yeah, it's been, it's been good though. Speaker 0 (47m 14s): Brandon just say, you know, I I'll pat you on the back, so you don't have to do it. But yeah, like just we've, you know, going back to the first time we spoke on bigger pockets, like, I don't even know now 6, 5, 6, whatever it is now. But yeah, it comes, it comes across authentic. I think a big thing of it too, is I've noticed, you know, much, much smaller scale with myself, the other pieces, they, they can tell how much you love real estate and you, you can't fake that. It's really hard to. So if I look at your page and not number one, it's authentic, I, you know, and say, you're the less, you know, you're more logic and, and you know, less emotion. What comes across is that you obviously really give a shit about real estate. Because if you didn't, you know, you, you wouldn't talk about it all the time. So I think it's important to, for the principal that you're investing with to love the asset class. Like they, they want to eat, sleep and breathe real estate. Speaker 1 (48m 9s): Yeah. I totally agree. I have a lot of people say like, yeah, I don't even like real estate. I'm just in it because it makes money. I'm like, well, that's cool. But like, like, man, I love, I love this game. I love every, every piece of it. It's a fun even dealing with nasty contractors. Like I'm like, this is, this is a game and it is a lot of fun to play and it's got real high stakes, but yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm a lover. So before Speaker 0 (48m 32s): We, we shut down here, BP con 21, I know it's, you know, fingers crossed everything's going in the right direction. New Orleans, October. Oh my God. Fourth now. Speaker 1 (48m 46s): Yeah. Fourth, fourth and fifth where there's like a preview Dan. Third, if people want to go to that, I think that those might be sold out though. But anyway, yeah. Speaker 0 (48m 53s): Some, some pretty, pretty amazing speakers on the, like the center stage. How L rod, I think he's in there. I am speaking. What are you thinking on a I'm on a rental panel. Rental rental real estate, but yeah. Sorry. I was talking to the center stage, like how L rod, but yeah, no, there's a, there's a bunch of really cool speakers. I I've kind of just reading through before we jumped on. So that's really cool. If anybody's interested at all in learning more about this, we were there was it now two years ago, right. And Nashville, Nashville. That's right. I was like, why were there? I was picturing guitars. I'm like national. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yup. Awesome. Awesome, Speaker 1 (49m 34s): Man. Well, yeah, I'm excited for it. It's gonna be a lot of fun. Hopefully the, hopefully COVID dies down a little so we can have a good time, but we'll see. Absolutely good sign no matter what, but it will be a good time with masks. We'll see. Yeah. Speaker 0 (49m 44s): A hundred percent. We'll be there. Well, Brandon, thank you so much for being part of working capital. And like I said, when we started really appreciate you, you giving your time and your insight. No, Speaker 1 (49m 55s): Thank you, man. It's been a ton of fun. So appreciate you. Yeah. Speaker 0 (50m 5s): Thank you so much for listening to working capital the real estate podcast. I'm your host, Jesse for galley. If you liked the episode, head on to iTunes and leave us a five star review and share on social media, it really helps us out. If you have any questions, feel free to reach out to me on Instagram, Jesse for galley, F R a G a L E, have a good one. Take care.

In this episode the chair of Long Covid Physio, Darren Brown discusses the World Physiotherapy briefing paper on safe rehabilitation approaches for people living with Long COVID.  Today Darren talk about the Key messages for Safe rehabilitation from the briefing paper:  " • Post-Exertional Symptom Exacerbation: before recommending physical activity (including exercise or sport) as rehabilitation interventions for people living with Long COVID, individuals should be screened for post-exertional symptom exacerbation through careful monitoring of signs and symptoms both during and in the days following increased physical activity, with continued monitoring in response to any physical activity interventions. • Cardiac Impairment: exclude cardiac impairment before using physical activity (including exercise or sport) as rehabilitation interventions for people living with Long COVID, with continued monitoring for potential delayed development of cardiac dysfunction when physical activity interventions are commenced. • Exertional Oxygen Desaturation: exclude exertional oxygen desaturation before using physical activity (including exercise or sport) as rehabilitation interventions for people living with Long COVID, with continued monitoring for signs of reduced oxygen saturation in response to physical activity interventions. • Autonomic Dysfunction and Orthostatic Intolerances: Before recommending physical activity (including exercise or sport) as rehabilitation interventions for people living with Long COVID, individuals should be screened for autonomic nervous system dysfunction, with continued monitoring for signs and symptoms of orthostatic intolerance in response to physical activity interventions." More about Darren:  Darren Brown is a cis-gendered (pronouns he/him), gay, white man, of English and Irish heritage, living in London, UK. He is a clinical and academic Physiotherapist specialising in HIV, disability and rehabilitation. Darren leads the HIV rehabilitation service at Chelsea and Westminster Hospital NHS Foundation Trust; Europe's Largest HIV centre. He is the Vice-Chair of Rehabilitation in HIV Association(RHIVA), HIV/AIDS coordinator of World Physiotherapy subgroup IPT-HOPE, and steering committee member of Canada International HIV Rehabilitation Research Collaborative (CIHRRC). Darren was awarded an NIHR funded Masters of Clinical Research (MRes) in 2019 and continues to conduct both quantitative and qualitative research about disability and rehabilitation among people living with HIV in the U and internationally. Darren contributes to national and international programmes focusing on disability inclusion across all responses to HIV. Darren contracted COVID-19 in March 2020 and continues to live with Long COVID. He is a patient advocate for Long COVID healthcare and research, calling for the greater involvement and meaningful engagement of people living with Long COVID in all responses to COVID-19. Darren founded Long COVID Physio in November 2020, an international peer support, education and advocacy group of physiotherapists living with Long COVID. Darren is an invited expert contributing to World Health Organization Guideline Development Group on COVID-19. Suggested Keywords:  Covid, Physiotherapy, Recovery, Long Covid, Healthy, Wealthy, Smart, Symptoms, Relief, Pacing, Resting, Support, Energy, Mental Health, Sport To learn more follow Darren at:  Twitter https://www.hiv.physio/ https://longcovid.physio/ Long Covid Briefing Paper   Subscribe to Healthy, Wealthy & Smart: Website:                      https://podcast.healthywealthysmart.com Apple Podcasts:          https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/healthy-wealthy-smart/id532717264 Spotify:                        https://open.spotify.com/show/6ELmKwE4mSZXBB8TiQvp73 SoundCloud:               https://soundcloud.com/healthywealthysmart Stitcher:                       https://www.stitcher.com/show/healthy-wealthy-smart iHeart Radio:                https://www.iheart.com/podcast/263-healthy-wealthy-smart-27628927   Read the full transcript here:  Speaker 1 (00:02): Hey, Darren, welcome to the podcast. I'm thrilled to have you on today. Thanks so much. Speaker 2 (00:07): Hello. And thank you for having me. My Speaker 1 (00:09): Pleasure. So this month we are talking all about long COVID. So people living with the long COVID symptoms and also what long COVID is at least what we know now, what we know at this present time. But before we get into all of that, and before we talk about the the world physio therapy briefing paper nine, which we will have a link to in the podcast notes I would love for you to let the listeners know a little bit more about you and why you are part of that paper and, and part of this world. Speaker 2 (00:48): Yeah. So thank you very much for having me today. So my name is Darren brown. I'm a, cis-gendered gay white man. I've mixed English and Irish heritage. I live in London in the UK. Hence my accent for anyone that's not where I am. I am both a clinical and an academic physiotherapist, and my background is in the area of HIV, disability, and rehabilitation, so specialized in that for a decade. So I'm kind of used to the chronic implications of viral diseases. And I also happen to be a person living with long COVID. So I contracted a coronavirus acutely in March, 2020. So as I sit here today, I'm of my 15th month after acute coronavirus and I am currently sitting here today in a really stable, good place with my long COVID I predominantly symptom free. Speaker 2 (01:45): However, it's been a 15 month journey and it's been a very episodic and up and down journey which I'll be very happy to summarize for you if you thought that was useful. So I, as I said, I contracted coronavirus last year. I went back to work pretty quickly actually, and I ended up working full time for six months, switched, included being redeployed to various sectors, including intensive care in response to the pandemic. Had some ongoing symptoms, but in September last year I crashed. And I ended up being off work for two months and the crash lasted for about six months where at my most disabled I was bed bound and flat bound and walking with a walking stick. And my symptoms were multi-dimensional episodic and unpredictable in their nature with profound exhaustion, fatigue, brain fog I've had some respiratory symptoms. Speaker 2 (02:37): I've had cardiovascular symptoms. I've had urological symptoms are neurological symptoms and I'm under all of those physicians for investigation still. I then had my vaccination, my first dose in January. I got better. I returned back to work. And then I was getting so much better. I started to do a bit more and unfortunately I had second crash. But then I had my second vaccination felt a bit better. And I've been continuing that journey since. So yeah it's been a very episodic journey but I'm also a co-founder of a group called long COVID physio. So long COVID physio was born out of the need for peer support amongst physiotherapists, living with long COVID, both in the UK and the United States, but now it's evolved, it's now a global peer support group that also provides education in the context of a long COVID disability and rehabilitation. And also acts as an on an advocacy level which kind of brings us round to where the briefing paper came in really. Because it was born out of a need for education and advocacy led by people living with long COVID. Speaker 1 (03:54): And you know, I think we spoke about this before we started recording, but your background working with HIV that has multi-system whole systemic bodily implications, you said, well, with these, the code, the symptoms of long COVID, you weren't, it wasn't like out of the blue, it wasn't a huge surprise for you, but is it safe to say it was a huge surprise to a lot of other people in healthcare and out? Speaker 2 (04:26): So in the context of HIV, we know that HIV can be controlled with medicines antiretroviral therapy. And when a person is undetectable, meaning you can't detect the virus in the blood because the medicines are working that well, people are on transmittable, meaning you can't pass it on. And when people are undetectable and they've been taking the medicines, people can live a normal life expectancy. But what we know with that is that people are growing older with HIV and the developing other complications and people living with well controlled HIV, still experience issues, including episodic disability. So when this pandemic came out, there was quite a few of us at work in the world of HIV, disability, and rehab that were kind of anticipating well, if people recover, there may be a risk that people will develop long-term consequences. So it wasn't surprising. I think what was surprising was that I was one of them and actually how severe the disability was. Speaker 2 (05:19): There are other groups of people that also were anticipating a post viral manifestation, particularly groups of people living with Emmy or my LJ can. And my lightest also known as chronic fatigue syndrome. And other people that have been living with post viral complications probably were anticipating there was going to be some form of complications after acute Corona virus. But I think mostly the world has been caught off guard by this. And maybe it hasn't been prepared for the critical mass of people globally that are going to be living with ongoing consequences after acute coronavirus, which is now commonly referred to as long COVID. Speaker 1 (06:00): Yes. And so now I think that leads us right into the briefing paper. So like I said, there'll be a link to this in the podcast notes, but when you look at this briefing paper, there are a lot of contributors to this. So before we get into the meat of the paper, can you give can you explain how you got all of these people together in order to write this paper? Speaker 2 (06:22): Yeah. So this brief briefing paper was specifically brought together communities of people from different experiences. So the idea started with myself and a few other people that had expressed some concerns that maybe there was lacking guidance and policies and standards around the utilization of physical activity, witching of all types, including exercise and sports in the rehabilitation of people who may have been recovering from coronavirus or living with long COVID. And so initial conversations were between some people that had already connected pretty much through social media. And when we got the kind of green light with world physiotherapy, that this might be something that we could work towards. We started to snowball our collective groups. It, this, this briefing paper is brought together over 50 different people from different geographical regions in the world, so that all of the five corners of the global four, four corners, but, you know, five weld, physiotherapy regions have been represented here. Speaker 2 (07:29): So we've got people from Europe, north America, south America. We've got people from Africa, Asia, and Asia specific. So we, we have huge diversity, not only in where people are from, but also in that backgrounds. We've got people living with long COVID. We've got physiotherapists, we've got physicians, doctors that specialize in a range of different things, including physical and medical rehabilitation. Also known as physiatrists. We've got occupational therapists, psychologists. We've got people living with M E the list goes on and we've got such diversity because what was needed was a consensus here. What was needed was a diversity of thought experience, both lived clinical and academic, but also geographical to come together to say non COVID is not just affecting one place in the world. And this experience is not singular to two groups of people or people in certain locations. This is actually a unifying global issue and the long-term consequences after acute coronavirus and affect people around the world. And that's why it was so important that we have that diversity, if the people that were contributing, but also diversity of experiences and thoughts, because not everybody comes from the same background with the same beliefs about all of this. And so we needed to bring that consensus together. And that's how we was able to develop the paper, though. It was not only recommending caution, but was also what can be done and also where rehabilitation is successful. Speaker 1 (09:00): Yeah. And I think, you know, for a whole systemic disease, that COVID is, and it being global, it is important to have a whole systemic group of people working on this. So I just wanted the listeners to know it's not only physical therapists or it's not only physicians, if this was a real collaborative world effort. So that being said, let's talk about what some of those key messages are, especially when it comes to safe rehabilitation of people with long COVID. So I'll hand it over to you. Speaker 2 (09:33): Yeah. So the, the way the briefing paper was written was to introduce T considerations when rehabilitation specific to physical activity in all of its forms. As I said, including exercise and sports, when those key considerations need to be taken from a safety perspective before we prescribe exercise and physical activity. And I purposeful in my terminology there because we are health professionals that do prescribe our interventions. And so therefore we do need to have safety at the core of what we do. We know that there is currently not enough evidence or any evidence on the safety and effectiveness of physical activity and exercises and intervention for people living with long COVID, but there's loads of indirect evidence. And there's also enough evidence in long COVID to give us the signals and clues as to which direction we could be traveling in. And so there was four key messages that came out in this. Speaker 2 (10:31): So the first was before recommending physical activity, as a rehabilitation intervention for people living with non COVID individuals should be screened for post exertional symptom exacerbation. Now, this is a term that's called different things. So post exertional symptom exacerbation is something that I quite like, but it's also used by other groups sometimes more commonly known as post exertional malaise, but can also be known as post exertional neuro immune exhaustion, basically, in a nutshell, when you exert yourself, whether that be physical, cognitive or social exertion, your symptoms get worse. So obviously before you get people to exercise, it would be quite useful to know whether they've got that because you can't exercise your way out of a symptom, which is made worse by exemption Speaker 1 (11:21): And, and from a physical therapy. Cause we're both physios from that physiotherapy perspective, how do we screen for that? Is it a simple questionnaire? Speaker 2 (11:33): So this is where the briefing papers really quite useful because obviously that's the first key message. And the way the briefing paper is designed is that you have the key message and the rationale for that key message. So if anyone's now going, why they brought that key message out in the briefing paper, there is an evidence based rationale for that. And then off the back of that, there's an action. So each key message has an action point where clinicians and also communities of people living with an effected by long COVID can utilize these action points. So as you rightly said, there are ways of screening for post exertion or symptom exacerbation. Now, one of the best ways of doing that is actually a narrative approach, which is having a effective communication between clinician and the person accessing the clinicians care. So one of the nice things about this briefing paper is it's also included the whole context of person centered rehabilitation and the therapeutic Alliance or relationship and how that's going to be an integral part of ensuring that safe rehabilitation is provided. Because if you can use a narrative approach to hear that people are experiencing this symptom, then it's a really good starting point. There are other tools though. Speaker 1 (12:47): So are you saying that we actually have to make the time in our evaluation to speak with our, the person in front of us to really get to know them and to ask more narrative questions, motivational interviewing, not just yes and no, and typing into a computer Speaker 2 (13:06): Now that's that's yes, that's leading, right? So, but you know, the average person probably listening to this, he's probably going, of course, I listened to my patients. Of course I communicate with my patients, but, but, but I think what it is, it's about providing space for people to feel safe, to provide the information that they can engage in. So if person centered care is going to be a key pillar of rehabilitation, we must make sure that our patients feel safe to open the engage in rehabilitation with meaningful connections that are established with the clinicians knowledge, but also the patient's belief and knowledge of their own lived experience. And I think this isn't new to many people, but I think it's a really vital skill that we can harness in terms of delivering safe rehabilitation. Speaker 1 (13:56): Yeah. And everyone deserves to be heard and acknowledged and seen and given the space to do that. So as physiotherapists, we should obviously be doing this with every patient. But when you're seeing patients who are living with long COVID, I think it behooves you to give them some extra space because I'm sure they have experienced people, not believing them. Like you said, just exercise your way out of it. You'll be fine. And because a lot of people with long COVID, unless you maybe are walking with an assistive device, they may come in and look, okay. Yeah. Speaker 2 (14:40): Th that's that's the key point, isn't it, you know, a long COVID could be classified for many people as an invisible disability. And certainly it's something that's experienced as, as not only, but also episodic in its nature and also unpredictable. So someone may look okay, one moment, but not another. And this is something that I've talked about from the lived experience of having the symptom of post exertional symptom exacerbation, which is that it's, it's wholly invisible to the majority of people because when I'm out and about, and I'm doing okay, people see that I'm doing okay, well, they don't see as the repercussions of that a day or two later where I'm laid up in bed because no, one's around me when I'm laid up in bed and no one can see that. So it is truly an invisible symptom and that's where people need to feel safe to talk about that. Speaker 2 (15:26): Because a lot of people may not understand it themselves and may be very confused by this because my experience was, I was totally confused as to what was going on with my body, when this was going on. And I was very lucky that people were able to guide me through what the symptom was and to understand it better. Yeah. And you're in the biz. So just people who aren't. Right. Yeah. I have a head, I have a level of health literacy that is probably different to the general population. And I didn't have a Scooby-Doo what was going on with my body. I thought I was doing the right things to try and rehabilitate myself by gradually increasing my activities. What I thought was dependent on my symptoms, but I had zero clue what was symptoms were doing because they were all over the show, but there are some tools to screen for this as well. Speaker 2 (16:14): And that's within the briefing paper. So there is a range of different questionnaires. And actually specifically within the, the, the briefing paper, there is a a box which actually has these 10 items that you can use. And it tells you how to score it, how it links it to the evidence-based research, which comes from Emmy and CFS. Hasn't been validated in long COVID, I'm sure that work will happen, but it's a tool that could be useful. There has been some research already that's come out of Calgary in Canada, which has used this tool specifically along COVID. And actually that was published as a pre-print literally the day after this was published. So it's not included in the briefing paper and that's a sign of how fast this research is moving, but a very high percentage of people are scoring as the threshold for experiencing post exertional symptom exacerbation when living with long COVID. Speaker 2 (17:07): So it's there, it's prevalent. It's an important consideration because what we know is that a graded exercise therapy program, which is incrementally increasing the amount of activity you do, irrespective of your symptoms has been shown to cause harm in other populations of people, particularly MEFs that experience post exertional malaise, and at our heart of what we do rehabilitation should be there to support people. It should be nourishing. It should be improving functioning, and it should not be causing harm. And that's where that narrative approach is useful because when we provide interventions, we need to provide the safe spaces for people to tell us that it might not be working and not allow people to feel that it's their fault that it's not working because they've got this symptom. Speaker 1 (17:57): Yeah. So, so, so important. We don't want to place the blame on someone for something which they have no control over. Right. And, and I think as, as physiotherapists, we have to check our biases. We have to understand that when this person comes in, I mean, we all have biases. We were, that's how we are, you know, maybe not as a four year old child, but certainly as you grow up, you acquire these biases and you have to know as the practitioner to be able to recognize that bias and push it aside, right. Speaker 2 (18:36): That's such an important point about implicit bias as well and unconscious bias. Because I think actually wholly as a profession physiotherapy has an unconscious bias, which is that the mantra exercise is medicine is within our bones. And I think as a profession, it's quite hard to hear that exercise can't cure everything Speaker 1 (18:58): Well. And, but I think you kind of said this earlier is exercise is prescribed. So we need to prescribe it just like you would prescribe a medication by dose. Right. So, and sometimes guess what that dose is zero, right? Sometimes it's zero, you're prescribing it. So again, it's that exercise is medicine. Yes, it's a thing. But you have to know enough about the person in front of you to know how to prescribe it. Exactly. Speaker 2 (19:29): And that's where physio therapists are. So ideally placed to take on board these messages, there's key message of screening for post exertional symptom exacerbation, because we all are good at prescribing physical activity and exercise interventions that are based within a rehabilitation model. And we are also good at knowing when not to prescribe. And I think that if we're given the tools to be able to identify the symptom, recognize that there might be an adapted approach that's needed that works with individuals and potentially takes a stop rest and pace approach because pacing is not easy to do. I'll say that from lived experience you know, there's, there's so much that can be done beyond the scope of just prescribing physical activity and exercise interventions. And I think that physiotherapists are so ideally placed to be working along those lines and working with our multidisciplinary team colleagues. And this is where the big shout out to the OTs go because pacing is their bread and butter. Speaker 1 (20:28): Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Absolutely. Okay. So we've got one key message is screening. Speaker 3 (20:38): Cause there were four, right? So what's number two, we Speaker 2 (20:42): Went on a topic, but it's important. Speaker 4 (20:47): [Inaudible] Speaker 1 (20:47): The most important part is to be able to screen and know the person in front of you. Yeah, Speaker 2 (20:53): Yeah, absolutely. So the second is about cardiac impairment. So what we know is that before we prescribe physical activity, interventions, including exercise or sport, we need to exclude cardiac impairments. Now there is enough evidence to demonstrate that's people that have had coronavirus and people that are living with the long-term consequences are long COVID can have cardiac impairment. And that can include things like pericarditis, myocarditis, even at mild levels. Now we know the opposite. There's a favoring for excluding exercise interventions for people that do have perio myocarditis for the safety implications. So reducing morbidity and mortality. Now, obviously this is a safety message. We don't have enough evidence yet to say what the true prevalence of cardiac impairment is amongst people living with long COVID what the safety implications are. But this key message is we must make sure that we are conscious of this because the evidence is indicating there's a risk and we need to be mindful of that risk. Speaker 1 (21:58): Right? So as a physiotherapist, if someone is coming to us with long COVID, who has not seen a physician has not seen a cardiologist has not had a cardiac workup, it would behoove us to say, Hey, listen I think your next stop should be, let's get you to a cardiologist to evaluate your cardiac function, Speaker 2 (22:18): But depending on symptoms, certainly. So, you know, people are having it disproportionate tachycardias on exertion. They are having strange cardiac symptoms, including changes to heart rate and blood pressure. They have chest pain, they have desaturations, you know, the classic cardiac symptoms that you'd expect. You're not going to try and push them through an exercise program. You're going to encourage them to see a physician first. And I think that there is going to be many people living with lung COVID that might not be going through specialist services for people designed for people living with non COVID. And there may be many that come through the doors of physical therapists and physiotherapists around the world first. And so this message is there because we need to make sure that we are aware that there is a risk. Speaker 1 (23:06): Perfect. Okay. What's number three. So Speaker 2 (23:09): We know that third one is around excluding exertional oxygen desaturation. So what we know is that COVID-19 can cause interstitial pneumonias. And so we have seen this in other diseases. So, you know, it can be things like pneumocystis, pneumonia, or PCPs. You see it in things like interstitial lung disease or idiopathic lung fibrosis with these they can cause these saturations on exertion basically, and as the most safest thing, you want to make sure that your patient is not hypoxic when you try to exert them. So it's a simple thing, but what we know is that this is often something that may have happened to people during acute COVID, but it doesn't mean that they can't have it ongoing. And we are seeing people that are having pulmonary impairments and sometimes these pulmonary impairments can manifest slightly later on as well. So it's just to be mindful of this. Speaker 2 (24:04): So the world health organization does recommend, you know, the pulse oximetry is used to measure that's and certainly in terms of long COVID services. So I'm based in England. So the long COVID services that are here do often utilize functional performance measures to determine if someone is exertion de-saturated and they might use something like a sit to stand test or a 40 step test to see if somebody is exertional desaturation, or having disproportionate successional tachycardias as well. But that needs to be finely balanced with point number one about posted exertional symptom exacerbation. Because obviously you don't want to put somebody through a test to determine if their exertion de-saturated, if it's going to cause them to end up in bed for a bit. Speaker 1 (24:49): Yeah, absolutely. Again, why point number one was so important. Let's go on to point number four. Speaker 2 (24:56): So point number four is about autonomic dysfunction and orthostatic intolerances. So many physiotherapists might not be aware of some of these conditions. So for example, there's something called pots or postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome which is where people change posture. They go from lying to upright there, their heart rates go really, really high. And with that, they can have symptoms of presyncope or even syncope. And also other orthostatic intolerance is exists where people can have really significant drops in their blood pressure again, causing issues with precinct pain syncope. So these dysautonomia is, are actually being seen to be quite prevalent in many people post virally, potentially. When they're living with long COVID, I said potentially there, because we don't really know what's going on with long COVID. So so we are seeing there's a higher amount of that and the American autonomic association has already published some guidance on that specific to long COVID. Speaker 2 (26:00): So the key message with this is if you've got somebody who, when they change position may have a disproportionate dropping their blood pressure or a disproportionate increase in their heart rate, you probably don't want to be getting them doing a downward facing dog or sitting on an upright bike because the likelihood is they could find, or they could have a heart rate of 220. So we need to think about that. Now there are lots of existing research prior to even COVID existing about dysautonomia is including pots and there was all these protocols that existed. And actually some of the work that's come out of Mount Sinai in New York has been looking at adapting those protocols to develop something called autonomic conditioning therapy which that developed in the context of long COVID. But it's really important that we're aware of this because if we're going to be looking at whether a physical activity intervention, including exercise or sports is going to be safe and effective for our individuals sat in front of us in the absence of evidence, guidance, and policies and standards. We need to be aware that these things are happening and people are having strange symptoms including changes to their blood pressure and heart rates with changes in postures. And the, the briefing paper is really clear on what it is what can cause it, how to measure it and what to do if it's there. Speaker 1 (27:26): And so we've got those four key messages. We're not going to dissect every bit of this briefing paper, because that would be a whole weekend course, I think, but for people that are listening, what, you know, as being one of the authors of this paper contributors to this paper, what, what is that, that group's hope for people upon reading this paper? Speaker 2 (27:53): So I don't know that I can speak for everybody that was contributing to this, but I would imagine that the majority of people have the same opinion as me. It's the lead author of this which is that we hope that this supports firstly, communities of people living with an effected by long COVID when they are accessing care, which is they have a resource that they can take with them to their health care providers and have these open conversations and dialogues about what may or may not be right for me. I also think that collectively, we all really hope that this is going to support clinicians that are going to be providing care for people living with and affected by non COVID. Because we know that at the moment, a lot of people are looking for information and there's, there's a lot of information that's either direct or indirect, and sometimes it can be difficult to see the wood for the trees when there's that much information. Speaker 2 (28:48): And so we're really hoping that this has consolidated over 180 citations into one document and every single citation has got a PDF link. So you can access that literature yourself. You can do your own research around it, should you want to, but we're hoping thirdly, that this will be a starting point. We're hoping this is going to be a starting point for hopefully international collaborations to work on these messages, to develop guidelines, standards, and policies around that as the evidence continues to emerge, but also to guide the research agendas, because obviously there are going to be some people where exercise will work for them, but we need to know who they are. And we need to make sure that whilst we're doing that research, that we have the safety messages at the heart of delivering that research too. So this crosses communities, clinical practice policy and also research. Speaker 2 (29:46): So I think the hope is that this has wide reaching impact. Obviously we need to see how that is, but this isn't the end of the journey. This is going to have further interest iterations. This is a live document. This will be updated as more research comes out, but we hope as well that people will work with us as things move forward and looking at international collaborations because we know that it's interprofessional, but also multi-sectorial collaborations that meaningfully engage and increasingly include people living with an effected by the health condition that leads to much more positive responses in all of the responses to that health condition. Speaker 1 (30:25): Yeah. And, and last thing I'll, I'll touch on here. And that's, I think what you were getting at at that last little bit is really looking at the social determinants of health and of the people who are affected by long COVID. I know I can say here in the United States that we know that African-Americans and Hispanics within the United States much more effected by COVID than other other folks. And so can, might, might this also be with this international collaboration across a lot of different professions, a way to really look at our social determinants of health and what can we do as healthcare providers and researchers, and so on down the line to make sense of this and to to address this, even in, in a small way, I know it's opening a whole can Speaker 3 (31:25): Of worms, but you know what I'm saying? Yeah, I Speaker 2 (31:28): Do. And I think it's, it's a can of worms I'm prepared to go into. So so yes, we know that in different parts of the world obviously the people that are affected more by acute Corona virus has been disproportionately people of different ethnic groups. So for example, here in the UK, we are seeing it more amongst black, Asian, and minority ethnicity groups. And we're also seeing it amongst different populations of people in terms of employments, but also in terms of socioeconomic status. So we know that health workers and teachers are more likely and people that drive buses, people from black, Asian, and minority ethnicity groups and people that live in deprived areas in the UK. But what's really interesting is we're not seeing that same demographic appear in terms of who's presenting in terms of the demographics of people that we are collecting data on in terms of long COVID. Speaker 2 (32:16): So what we're seeing in the UK so with the office for national city plastics, which is probably the most representative and largest epidemiological studies on long COVID to date globally, it's actually disproportionately young white women that are have relatively different social economic. So I think the aims of maybe an unintended aim, but hopefully a positive unintended outcome is that if more people are aware of some of these key indications of awareness, maybe some greater awareness of lung, COVID the people that are probably more likely to get COVID are probably going to also be more likely to get long COVID, but we're not seeing that come out in the data or the people presenting to those services. So we need to think about health inequalities in terms of the candidacy of people to access these services, how permeable are they to access? Speaker 2 (33:19): How, how is the adjudication between the individual and the health care providers to be referred to that? What's the individual's candidacy to raise their voice, to say I deserve to access these services. And at the moment we know that structural racism exists, health inequalities exist, and people that experience structural racism often experience healthcare incredibly different to other groups such as white people. And so it's probably likely that many of these people may also be living with long COVID and not presenting to health services and not being counted. And this is a particular issue globally, which is that we're still not effectively counting on COVID. And so we don't know the proportionality of people affected by it and the need globally. So if this briefing paper has any way in contributing to more clinicians, more people being aware of some of the signs and symptoms of lung COVID and particularly those key recommendations in terms of safety, if they can say, well, maybe you do have long COVID. It might be a way of identifying people that are more at risk, but also are more vulnerable to not accessing services. Speaker 1 (34:21): Yeah. Perfectly said, I am in awe of your of your ability to succinctly and efficiently get big ideas across that allows people to understand better. So thank you very much for that. That was wonderful. Now, before we sign off here, where can people find you? They have questions. They want to know what's up. I love Speaker 2 (34:44): A bit of Twitter, so I'm on Twitter, I'm at Darren brown. Also we've got our long COVID physio group at long COVID physio on Twitter. We've also got a website long covid.physio. So they're probably the best way he's very responsible on Twitter. So yeah, I won't give out my email address, no need, Speaker 1 (35:02): No need to, no need to get that personal. But I do have one personal question before. So knowing where you are now in your life and career, what advice would you give to your younger self? Oh Speaker 2 (35:13): My God. So you warned me about this earlier, didn't you and I get to repeat what I said earlier. I was like, oh my God, this is like, RuPaul's drag race. Isn't it. There's going to be a picture of a five-year old Darren big helicopter. What would you say to baby Darren? Do you know what I would actually say? Whether I was on RuPaul's drag race or dot is the diversities of people bring out the strengths in others and I'm a man, and I know that Mo and I'm now a person living with an episodic disability. Those things have made me a better person and enabled me to have conversations with my patients and the people that come and access my care in a completely different way that because of the lens that I've seen society and life. So if I was seeing myself as a younger Damron, I would have said, be proud of who you are, be accepting of who you are and know that your diversity, your differences, your quirks, your geekiness, your diff, your things that make you unique are going to truly make you unique when you're older and give you advantages in terms of how you navigate life, society and your job. Speaker 1 (36:23): I love it. Thank you so much. That was so perfect. What a great way to end this podcast, Darren, thank you so much for coming on. Thank you for your time. I really appreciate it. Thank you for having me and everyone. Thanks so much for listening. Have a great couple of days and stay healthy, wealthy and smart.    

In this episode, author of The Full Spirit Workout, Kate Eckman, talks about achieving success and fulfillment. Today, Kate talks about the 5 P's of Confidence, the story behind the Full Spirit Workout, and how we can find personal fulfillment and success. How can we boost our mental metabolism? How can we achieve our goals? Hear about coaching programs, how to handle perfectionism-itis, and get some valuable advice, all on today's episode of The Healthy, Wealthy & Smart Podcast.   Key Takeaways “Coaching isn't consulting. It's not therapy. It's not problem-solving.” “Remember to stay in your own lane, think about the impact that you want to make, and the work that you're here to do.” “So many people see the end result and they just want that, but what they dont see is all the work that we have put into it.” The Five P's of Confidence (and 2 Bonus P's): Presence. Being fully present where you are, in the moment. But also, showing up like you mean it. Patience. “Hold on loosely.” Put in your work, take those action steps, and then take your hands off the wheel, gently lean into trust, detaching from those outcomes, release expectations, and trust in the process. Purpose. This is your ‘why'. It's important to have a strong ‘why' that will keep you going, even when it doesn't feel like anything is working out for you. Preparation. Build habits that lead to better behaviours that lead to better results. Practice. Your talent warrants investment. Pause. Take a moment of mindfulness. Person. Be a person. Lean into not only the person you present to the world, but the messy person behind-the-scenes. “We don't often give ourself the grace to expand our inner selves.” “You can do whatever you decide is important enough.” “Everyone is struggling with something.” “Even if you don't tell someone else, tell yourself the truth.” “It's all happening. Keep going. Keep trusting. You're doing a great job. I'm so proud of you. Just go relax and have some fun. You're doing great.”   More about Kate Eckman Kate Eckman empowers high-achieving individuals to actualize their full potential. She leverages her experience as a well-known communications, performance and mindfulness expert; accomplished entrepreneur; and former elite athlete to equip leaders with the tools, methodology, and energetic boost they need to compete and win at the game of life. With a results-driven approach rooted in neuroscience, positive psychology, and whole-person coaching techniques, Kate helps her clients succeed in and out of the boardroom and on and off the field. She guides them to identify who they are beneath their titles and labels, clarity their priorities and values, and then co-create a game plan to get them from where they are now to where they most want to be … adding in some fun and humor along the way. Kate incorporates a mind-body-spirit approach into her coaching engagements, recognizing that when we take care of our inner world, our outer world takes care of itself. Clients report that working with Kate leads to greater focus, energy and presence; increased performance and resilience; more meaningful relationships and newfound confidence; and greater overall well-being and fulfillment. As someone who is known to thousands as a broadcast journalist and an international TV personality, Kate understands the pressures and demands to be always “on,” perform at a high level and be an exceptional team player. She brings that high-level presence, professionalism, and infectious enthusiasm to each coaching engagement. Kate recently led and organized the team behind the launch of QVC's first and only proprietary beauty brand, which made more than four million dollars in sales the first day alone. Known for her incomparable salesmanship, she helps global beauty brands shape their vision, strategy and innovation to inspire the achievement of breakthrough results. Kate earned her B.A. in communications from Penn State University, where she was an Academic All-American swimmer. She received her master's degree in broadcast journalism from Northwestern University's Medill School of Journalism. She graduated at the highest level from Columbia University's executive and organizational coaching program. Kate is also a certified International Coaching Federation coach (ACC) and a licensed NBI consultant. Kate is the author of, The Full Spirit Workout: A 10-Step System to Shed Your Self-Doubt, Strengthen Your Spiritual Core, and Create a Fun & Fulfilling Life, which helps readers excel at the game of life with research-backed strategies (New World Library, April 27th, 2021). Passionate about mindfulness practices for both brain and body health, Kate is a meditation teacher and course creator for Insight Timer, the world's number-one ranked free meditation app.   Suggested Keywords Coaching, Spiritual, Perfectionism, Mental Health, Workout, Community, Confidence, Goals, Support, Presence, Patience, Purpose, Preparation, Practice, Pause, Person, Health, Truth, Fulfilment, Success, Impact,   Pre-order the book for FREE gifts: https://www.thefullspiritworkout.com   To learn more, follow Kate at: Website:          https://www.kateeckman.tv Facebook:       Kate Eckman Instagram:       @kateeckman Twitter:            @kateeckman Pinterest:         @kateeckman LinkedIn:         Kate Eckman YouTube:        Kate Eckman   Subscribe to Healthy, Wealthy & Smart: Website:                      https://podcast.healthywealthysmart.com Apple Podcasts:          https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/healthy-wealthy-smart/id532717264 Spotify:                        https://open.spotify.com/show/6ELmKwE4mSZXBB8TiQvp73 SoundCloud:               https://soundcloud.com/healthywealthysmart Stitcher:                       https://www.stitcher.com/show/healthy-wealthy-smart iHeart Radio:                https://www.iheart.com/podcast/263-healthy-wealthy-smart-27628927   Read the full transcript here:  Speaker 1 (00:01): Hi, Kate, welcome to the podcast. I'm really excited to have you here. Thank Speaker 2 (00:06): You so much for having me. It's my joy to be here. And now, Speaker 1 (00:08): As I said, in your bio, you are the author of the full spirit workout. And we will talk about the book in a little bit, but what I'd love to talk about first? Well, a couple of things. So one I, one thing I'm actually quite curious about, I noticed on your website that one of the coaching programs you went through was the Columbia three CP program. And I know a lot of listeners are always wondering what, what is a coaching program? How can I get into that? So can you talk just briefly about that before we get going? Just so listeners have a better idea of where you're coming from? Sure. Speaker 2 (00:48): So it was a very, very rigorous intense program. It was about a year, a little over a year, and it was, it was deeper and harder than master's degrees. And I had colleagues who went to Columbia business school. They said it was harder than that. I mean, it was really intense and hardcore, but it was such thorough training. And we learned whole person coaching techniques and neuroscience and positive psychology. And it was just so much peer coaching and, and really going through a really detailed process and going through the guiding principles of coaching and going through just so many programs and processes that they had developed. And that main man named Terry [inaudible], who started the program, who is a genius. So I was just working alongside so many top notch people and minds, and the faculty was incredible and, you know, coaching right now is I feel like everyone in their mother is calling themselves a coach. Speaker 2 (01:48): And it, it, it kind of disheartens me a bit because it is a serious role where you're holding someone's well-being and in your hands. And it needs to be, I think, a bit more regulated and taken a bit more seriously. And that's why I chose this program. And I wanted to have this knowledge and, and taking the profession very seriously and not to sound like a total nerd, but I also loved that they required us to write a massive research paper that was almost like writing a thesis and, and really dive into the art and the practice of coaching. That's Speaker 1 (02:19): Amazing. I have to, I didn't think that it was going to be that rigorous year because oftentimes I hear, you know, kind of coaching programs might be a couple of months, three or four months. So that is much, much more than I thought. It sounds incredible. Speaker 2 (02:33): It was, was probably the best investment I've ever done. And I, I have gotten another graduate degree at Northwestern years ago and journalism, and I was about to say, I love that program. I liked it. It was it, that was another superintendent. Was it a year intensive program that I took an accelerated program and nearly killed me. It was, it was so much work. So between undergrad and grad and then this program, the Columbia was I think my favorite and just rewarding and just to be able to help people and an impactful way. And so much of it is, is, is underneath the surface level though, you know, it's listening to what people aren't saying and, and really reading and feeling body language and just opening up this space and container for people to come to their own conclusions. I think that's another misconception about coaching, coaching. Speaker 2 (03:22): Isn't consulting. It's not therapy, it's not problem solving. You know, when I first got into coaching, that's what I thought it was like, if you were my client and you came to me for example, and said, I want to make more money. I thought it was my job to come up with this business plan or to come up with the solutions. But really it's, we're focusing on the client's agenda and you have all the answers. It's my job to ask the questions that will make you reflect so deeply questions. You've never been asked before to take you into the depths of yourself where you actually have the answers. And of course, I can say some things I can ask for permission to add here and there, but really it's about bringing out your own wisdom. That is way more powerful than anything I could say to you or tell you to do. Does that mean makes sense? Speaker 1 (04:08): Yes, absolutely. And, and I thank you for that because I agree the word coaches all over the place these days. And I think that was a really succinct way of saying, Hey, this is what coaching is, and this is how I learned how to be a good coach. And I think that that makes a big difference. Speaker 2 (04:29): And it, it really is a partnership. I like to say, I'm your thought partner and, and we are co-creating together. And it does become about that, that container. So, you know, I, everyone who's in the field obviously wants to help someone. I just invite and encourage people, whatever your field is. And you know this from your profession too. I think this, I come from a family of doctors. So I come from a family where you go to school for years and years and years, and you have to have the medical school and the fellowship and the residency and all the things before you can, no one can just call themselves a doctor on Instagram, you know, or a physician. And so I see, I see I've seen what my brother has gone through, for example. So I think I wanted to, I want it to be there and, and, and have longevity and just the type of people that I wanted to coach who quite frankly, are not going to put up with any nonsense, know the high achievers are professional athletes. Speaker 2 (05:23): They expect you to come in and be on top of your game. And that takes training. And that takes research. And that takes working on, on yourself. And then as I like to say, you have to fine tune your instrument before you can play it for the world. And there's no escaping that. And you know, when you're in the midst of the hard work and you're paying a lot of money to work really hard, and you see people around you who have no credentials and are making 50 K whatever on Instagram to sell something, that's when you have to just remember to stay in your own lane, think about the impact that you want to make and the work that you're here to do, because it wouldn't be tempting. I can see why people like I would never go back to school or I would never pay money or do some intensive program. That's too much work, but I just, I just have to ask what kind of impact do you want to make? And I can even feel some eyes rolling or, you know, a lot of people, I think don't want to hear what I'm saying, but for me, this is, was the right decision. Speaker 1 (06:21): Yeah. Well, I think I can say with confidence that I feel like my audience does want to hear what you're saying, because you know, as physical therapists who go to school for seven years, Speaker 2 (06:31): You know, my mom's a PT, so I Speaker 3 (06:33): Love you already. Yes. Yeah. Speaker 2 (06:36): So I, I, I, okay, so your audience gets it because I, you do a lot of the Instagram crowd. They, and I'm not saying that that's your audience, but they kind of think I see it, that culture thinks the opposite. And it is kind of frustrating because same with writing a book, for example, I think so many people see the end result, whatever it is, and they just want that. But what they don't see is all the work that we have put into it. And this, this reminds me of even a story that just came to mind that comes to me often, which is interesting because it literally happened 20 years ago. But in 2001 country singer Shelby, Lynne won best new artist. And when she accepted her award, this is the only acceptance speech I have ever remembered at the Grammys ever 20 years ago. And she was gracious. And she said, thank you. But also kind of mocked the award and said, best new artist. It only took me 13 years and six albums to get here. I just thought, yeah, because people think you just show up and no, you have to put in the work. And I don't know why people aren't wanting to hear this or understand this. And so all everyone listening who has been through your seven year program, I honor you, and you will have a much greater impact and you will have the longevity. And, and if I was your patient, I would feel so held in your care. So thank you. Speaker 1 (08:05): Yeah. Yeah. That's great. And you know, I, as I mentioned, I said, I could say with good confidence that my audience would agree with you and that this is a nice segue to talk about. One of the things that that you coach and that's confidence. So what are the five PS, the letter P just for people know of confidence? Speaker 2 (08:28): Sure. So it's presence, patience, purpose, preparation, and practice, because I love you and your audience. I'll give you two bonus piece. And that is pause and person as in be a person, and I'm happy to quickly go through them. And it's something that we can all discuss later, even offline or online somewhere, but presence. So presence obviously is being fully present where you are with whomever you're with, even if it's just yourself. So the phones and the TV and all of it is off. And you are just there in the moment, focusing on your breath, focusing on the task at hand right now, I am locked into you. Nothing else. There's a million other things that could be going on, but being present. And then with that comes, bringing your presence. So showing up like, you mean it. So many people tell me, oh, I'm not getting a school. Speaker 2 (09:25): This isn't happening. And I'm like, I don't think that you care, you're showing up. Like you don't care. So I think bringing that energy, bringing that enthusiasm to everyone, you meet and to everything that you do, patients, oh man, I think of that 38 special song that says, hold on loosely. So I think sometimes we're all guilty of gripping. So tightly to our goals, we want this relationship. We want this job. We want this money. And when we grip so tight, we actually repel it. So putting in your work, taking those action steps and then taking your hands off the wheel and gently leaning into trust and detaching from those outcomes, releasing expectations and Shelby Lynn, the story I just told what a perfect example of patience, right? And trusting in the process and confidence stems from the words to trust, to do something with trust, which is great because you can build on that. Speaker 2 (10:18): And it's something that comes from within purpose is your why. So it's so important to have a strong why that will keep you going. Even when it's hard, when you want to throw in the towel, when it doesn't feel like anything is working out for you, that's what this book. I had a really strong why. My two friends who are no longer with us and they kept me going when it was really challenging. And I think a lot of people, this is where they get tripped up because I'll ask them, well, why do you want to do this? And they often don't have a good answer. Or the answer is impressing other people or just money is the only goal. Things like that. It's like the people who say, well, I want to be a parent because when I post pictures of my kids on Instagram, I'll get more likes. Speaker 2 (11:01): Ooh, probably going to hate parenthood. And your kid's probably not going to go over well. Yeah, yeah. Not a good reason to be a parent. Yeah. So I, I, yeah. And, and if you are a parent, you are my personal hero. I don't know how parents get anything done. I, I bow down to them every day. Preparation of course is about, you know, building habits that lead to better behaviors that lead to better results. So that boosts your confidence when you're prepared and practice, there's this misconception that we don't have to put in that much work. It's like what I was saying about school and the credentials. And I think of Tom Brady, because we're the same age. We're both big 10 athletes. He's still winning super bowls. And my knees hurt when I go to Pilates. So Tom Brady are an inspiration, but Tom Brady is the best because he practices harder than anyone. Speaker 2 (11:52): You know, people think, oh, well, if you need that much work, you must be the worst. No, you, you P he practices that much. Cause he's the best, not the worst and your talent merits investment. So practice pause is really what the, this inner fitness program is about. It's, it's taking that moment before you respond to the upsetting email, before you tell the jerk what a jerk they are. It's taking that moment of mindfulness and thinking, okay, I'm really upset, but I'm willing not to be. And who do I want to be instead? So it is about non-reactivity again, I got to practice this a lot. And, and the last one is, is, I mean, they're all my favorites, but this one makes me laugh, be a person. My speaking coach, Eduardo, plusser always says this to me because I'm someone who has struggled with perfectionism and performance and obsession with performance. Speaker 2 (12:39): And he always says, just be a freaking person. And this is really about our humanity and just leaning into not just the person we present to the world who has put together, but that really messy person behind the scenes, just trying to keep it all together. He or she is awesome to let let's embrace that and just be a person. Cause that's where that's, what's really beautiful about us, right? Our humanity, and just being willing to show up, even when it's hard. And, and that's, that's another, a key building block of confidence is, is our willingness to show up and not be great first or ever that's to be in dance class, never going to be a great dancer, but you show up, I build confidence because I dare to put myself out there and not be good and a room full of dancers and feel like a complete, but it's fun. And, and it's, it's that one activity I can do where I it's such a rebellion against my inner perfectionist. Cause there's, there's never going to be a perfect performance dance class. It's, I'm just there to show up and, and, and move around and, and release some energy. Speaker 1 (13:40): Absolutely. You're speaking my language. Totally. I, cause I took, when I was at Equinox, I always took this dance class. It was like six 30 in the evenings. And it was with this guy, Johnny, and some days it would be like jazz hands. Some days it was hip hop. So I'm not a dancer, but I would show up and I would have the best time. And I mean, there are women in there who were clearly dancers in their early years. I mean, they're like in their sixties and seventies and they're splitting and high kicking and doing all this stuff. And I'm like, I can't even touch my toes when I'm sitting. And these women have like, their, their stomachs are on the ground, you know, but it's true. You go out there, you put yourself out there. And the more I did it, the more confident I was as a dancer, not that I'm a good dancer, but I was confident in what I was doing because I practiced. And the more I did it, the more, and I also think the more I really enjoyed it. Speaker 2 (14:34): Yeah. And, and those moments, then we become a dancer and I had this woman in class who was a gorgeous dancer and I had to perform in front of these people. Let me restate that. I got to be a person in front of these people. And they, they wrote the one woman wrote me a note after class. And she said, you are a dancer. And I thought, yeah, I am. Cause I'm here dancing. It's not about being ushered J lo or you know, whomever it's I'm yeah. I'm here dancing and I'm a dancer. Speaker 1 (15:04): Yeah. That's great. And you know, and it brings me to that concept of perfectionism and performance, which a lot of high achievers have they have perfectionism itis or performance itis. I don't know that those are words, but you know what I'm talking about. So what do you say to those high achievers where it's all about high performance and perfection? Yeah. I first Speaker 2 (15:32): Would want to work with people like I had to do with myself and just ask, where does this come from? Where does this thought process come, where you even think you have to perform or achieve at this high level to even be worthy or valuable or loved. And it really is about feeling safe in the world and not feeling so alone. And that's the story I tell in the book about being the four year old at the swim club and being in swim lessons that I didn't really like and overhearing my instructor, tell my mom that I'm not a very good swimmer and how heartbreaking it is for me as an adult to think of my sweet little innocent. Four-Year-Old thinking like, oh gosh, I, I love my mom and dad. I want them to be proud of me. I don't want them to have a daughter who's a bad swimmer, especially since they're so athletic and then going on to break every record at that swim club, because my mentality was I have to perform at a really high level to be safe and not just when the love of mom and dad, but I guess I need to impress strangers. Speaker 2 (16:34): So they say nice things about me and I can feel worthy. And, and then people will love me because I'm good at something. And they can be wowed by my quote unquote performance and what a trap that is. So I think it is about taking ourselves back to where we even come up with this mentality. But I think when we are in that place of obsession, it's like I said, you have to go back to being a person, but you have to also go back to why do I even, why am I even doing this? And, and I think when you are more clear, even I have a client who's extremely wealthy, extremely high achieving, and he's coming to that point in his life. He's about to turn 50 where he thinks, what does all of this even mean? What is my cause? He had a health scare and what if I pass away, what is my legacy that I made a bunch of money? Speaker 2 (17:22): And, and so he's starting to think of what impact he wants to make, or, you know, like many of us, we experience external success, but then we feel unfulfilled on the inside or insecure full of self doubt, full of anxiety. And so I think it's just coming back to what, what really matters to us and who are we underneath all of the titles and the labels and the achievements and the accolades and awards, all of that stuff, and really clear on that. And then your desire to be perfectionistic or to always have to perform at a high level goes away because you know who you are without all this stuff. And then spoiler alerts, you actually end up achieving more and less time and attracting the people, experiences relationships, because you've become the person who just gets to have that or gets to be that rather than striving and forcing and controlling. Does that make sense? Speaker 1 (18:19): It does. Yeah, absolutely. And it has me going back in my head, like, is that why I did that? Is that why I did this? Was it for, you know, to have your parents feel proud of you or to have people tell you, wow, that was so good. Or for, yeah. I need to do a lot of inner work thinking about this right now, Speaker 2 (18:43): But what a great practice that I invite you and everyone listening to do is go back and think of that limiting thought or think of, wow, I am so anxious and it's because I feel like I have to impress people or earn someone's approval and try to go back. And it's always in childhood something. And it's something that we don't even think of. I hadn't thought of that swim club moment until I was doing heavy thought around this book when I was writing it and doing a lot of meditation and reflection, and that story came I'm like, where did this come from? This obsession and how crazy right. And that we hold onto, and then also inviting everyone to, instead of the criticisms or the society that tells us how we don't add up ever, especially as women. So really think of the compliments or think about your strengths and, and, and making that the root of your core belief system instead of all that other crap. Yeah. Speaker 1 (19:36): Oh, it's so good. And now let's talk a little bit more about the book. So the full spirit workout. So what is, what was your why for writing the book, talking about purpose, right? So let's tie it together. What is your why? Speaker 2 (19:52): Oh, you're so good. My, why is salmon Roth? There are two dear friends. They were both two of the loves of my life and they both decided to leave us. They both took their own lives almost a year to the day of one another. So I lost both of them in one year. And this project, I call it a divine assignment. It's the most challenging life assignment I've ever had, certainly the most rewarding, but I did it for them. And for everyone who has felt like them in a place of hopelessness or despair who didn't have the tools who didn't feel confident or secure or safe to reach out for help, who thought they had to do it all on their own or hold it all in. And the, the name of being a man or looking cool to the outside or not wanting to show their dark side for lack of better term, and also wanting it to be a celebration of life for everyone. Speaker 2 (20:47): And, you know, I talk about society and, and it's really sick right now. And it bombards us with all these messages about how we aren't enough and it doesn't give us the tools to, to be healthy and happy. It's just, it's the constant negative. And so, you know, I was a competitive swimmer for 17 years and knew how hard I had to train my physical muscles to compete at a high level. And after losing them and finding myself at the Dwayne Reed on eighth avenue and 34th street contemplating taking a bottle of pills, I knew that my life depended on answering this wake up call and shifting the way that I was choosing to live my life. Like everybody, I will say everybody is guilty of placing their worth outside of themselves. Some may not even realize it, but that's why they have the emptiness feeling on the inside at times. Speaker 2 (21:38): And I really just dove into so much studying and research and spiritual tools and practices and, and, and went back to school and just really wanted to put a program together for everybody. You know, someone said, who is this book for? And I said, everyone who can read, because we all need these practices, just like, we all need to exercise our physical bodies to stay healthy and fit and strong. And it's not about looking hot in a bikini. It's about being able to navigate the world and do everything that you, you want to do and can do whether it's travel or get out of bed. This isn't about a six pack abs, but this, my program will give you a six pack spirit, and that will lead to health on every level. So I just encourage everyone, even if it's five minutes a day to do some of these practices, I wrote this book and a fun is in the subtitle. Speaker 2 (22:27): So this is fun. It's, it's a workout you're going to actually want to do and return to. And, and I return to these practices daily because it's just like exercise or sleep or eating. It's, it's part of our health that we need to tune into every day and, and give ourselves this gift. And if I've learned anything this past year, my wellbeing comes first, no matter what, I'm not willing to go to a dark place. Again, I, I'm not, I'm not doing it. And I, I just, I see so much struggle around me. I it's been such a challenging year for everyone. That life was challenging way before COVID and then everything else we dealt with, especially in this country this past year, it has just been trauma and chaos after trauma and chaos. And so this is really within these pages, just such a place to be in self discovery and be in self-growth and really get acquainted with yourself again and feel really good. And it's all there for you. So let's go, I'll just do it. Speaker 1 (23:28): Yeah. And I loved it. The thing that I really picked up on, you said, you know, you want to be able to like you work and you exercise and you move to help kind of expand your world. Right. I mean, as physical therapist, I mean, I have patients who are in pain, osteoarthritis of their knees, so they can't walk. They can't, they can't do the things they want to do. And they, and, and she said to me, just today, she's like years ago, my world was, I could do anything. Now it's just narrowed so much because I don't have the physical capacity to do the things that I used to do. And, you know, you hear that. And it's, it's so upsetting to hear, you know, and she has some other systemic issues going on as well. But so when you just said, you know, you want to kind of work on your inner spirit and your inner self, just like you would your, your health on the outside. Because again, you don't want to narrow your, your mind and your spirit, like you would, if you didn't exercise and move on the outside. That just so Speaker 2 (24:37): Brilliant what you just said. Yeah. Speaker 1 (24:40): It just really, when you said that, I said, oh gosh. And we see it all the time. And people from a physical standpoint, and we don't often give ourselves the grace to, to expand our inner selves as well. So I, Speaker 2 (24:54): I love it. That's such a great analogy. And that's why I did, because there is such an obsession with the physical and this world, right? What we physically look like face hair, skin, body, all of that. And the obsession with, with working out where it goes too far, the other direction where it becomes unhealthy and that's the whole diet culture and all of it, but that's such a perfect example. And people see that like, oh, I break my leg. I can't do X, Y, and Z, but so many people are injured on the inside because, or they're there, you have the spiritual flag, the emotional flag from just not working out are inside. And it's the same. It has the same limiting effect. And so when, when you do get fit and strong and resilient and optimistic on the inside, really the world is yours. Speaker 2 (25:37): And you, you, like I said, you attract the opportunities, experiences. You become the person who can actually attract and achieve your cherish goals and live the life you say you want to live. And I think a lot of us have forgotten that we have access to this and that we are powerful. And so I'm just gently reminding everybody to tune back into that and to live from that place so that you don't feel limited. So you don't feel like you have a broken leg or like, oh my gosh, I can't physically even exercise. I feel miserable. We're doing that to ourselves, with our minds and with our hearts and our spirits. We just, we don't even realize it. Yeah. Speaker 1 (26:15): And you know, I was going to just ask you what is the book's core message, but I think you just said it, is there anything you'd like to add? Speaker 2 (26:22): I mean, I, it is, I, I get very, almost like dramatic and passionate about it. Just reminding people who they are and, and being comfortable with who you are right now in this moment exactly where you are and reminding yourself of, of your strength and your inherent worth, and that you can do whatever you decide is important. I think people think, oh, this is just as good as it gets, or I can't have that. Or even had some woman say to me, well, you're beautiful. You can get anything you want. And I think, wow, are we still doing that to each other where we're, we're judging or policing or thinking that it's about what we look like? Or you can do everything because you have a nice house and, and diminishing each other and, and everyone is struggling with something. And, and I wish people would, would talk about it more and tell the truth. Speaker 2 (27:09): And even if you don't tell someone else to tell yourself the truth and sit, I call it my sit and stare time where it's, non-negotiable at least five minutes a day. And I sit and stare out the window or stare ahead. And I talk to myself like I would a small child and say, how are you doing, what do you need? What's working. And it has saved me so many times. And, you know, I can hear some people saying, well, it must be nicer. I don't have time to do that. Just like people say about meditation. And I say, I don't have time to be angry. I don't have time to treat people badly because I'm exhausted and overwhelmed. And at the end of my rope, I don't have time to be miserable. I don't have time to be sick. I don't have time to be rushed to the hospital and pay some crazy bill or whatever, you know? So I think it's just asking yourself, what do you really want? And who are you? And, and be willing to show up and just keep going and take little baby steps here and know that you're going to get stronger and stronger. And then you will crave this. You'll crave the sit and stare. You'll crave these journaling exercises and this time to really get to the core of what's happening inside of you. Speaker 1 (28:25): Excellent. I love it. Thank you so much. So again, everyone, the book is the full spirit workout. And now Kate, where can people find, you find the book, et cetera, et cetera. So Speaker 2 (28:38): You can find the book@thefullspiritworkout.com. And that will also link to my website, which is Kate ekman.tv, E C K M a N and Quebec men, everywhere on social. I'd love to connect with you. I love meeting people who are ready to kind of take on this journey and have fun with it. And we can all support one another. I really believe in community and collaboration over competition. And we're all in this together. So let's go, Speaker 3 (29:03): As you said, let's do it. Let's just do it. Yeah. Excellent. I love Speaker 1 (29:07): It. Thank you so much. One last question that I ask everyone, and that's knowing where you are now in your life and in your career. What advice would you give to your younger self? Speaker 2 (29:17): Ooh, hold on baby. It's it's all coming. It's all happening. Keep going, keep trusting. You're doing a great job. I'm so proud of you. Just go relax and have some fun. You're doing great. Speaker 1 (29:32): I love it. I love how you said. I'm so proud of you. That's so nice. Such a good exercise to do. I love it. Kate, thank you so much for coming on for your book and sharing all this great advice. And I just thank you very much. Thank Speaker 2 (29:47): You. You're the best. I appreciate you having me Speaker 1 (29:49): Pleasure and everyone. Thanks so much for listening. Have a great couple of days and stay healthy, wealthy and smart.  

Speaker 1: There's got to be a clear why as the motivator behind every goal. So I believe it's why power, not willpower that will ignite your inner drive and get you to your goal. Speaker 2: Raising the water level of leadership in the Tri-Cities of Eastern Washington. It's the Tri-Cities influencer podcast. Welcome to the TCI podcast. We're local leadership and self-leadership expert Paul Casey interviews, local CEOs, entrepreneurs, and non-profit executives to hear how they lead themselves and their teams. So we can all benefit from your wisdom and experience. Here's your host, Paul Casey growing forward services, coaching individuals and teams for breakthrough success. Speaker 3: It's a great day to grow forward. Thanks for joining me for today's episode with Jessica Schneider. She is the medical doctor and the CEO and founder and owner of empowered health Institute. And I asked her for something funny or quirky about her and it was hard to come up with something, but she said she loves sci-fi and fantasy. Tell us more about that. Speaker 4: Yeah. As I was mentioning, Paul, I enjoy reading sci-fi books and what I'm currently reading right now is red rising by Pierce brown. And it's a great story, but I, this is the way that I've put myself to sleep for years and years. If I shutting off the real-world and going to something that's a little bit more a fictional, Speaker 3: Love it, love it. Well, we'll dive in. After checking in with our Tri-City influencer sponsor, it's easy to delay answering uncomfortable questions. Like what happens to my assets and my loved ones when I die. So it's no surprise that nearly 50% of Americans don't have a will and even fewer have an estate plan, many disabled clients worry that they don't have enough assets to set up an estate plan, but there are important options available to ensure that you have a voice in your medical and financial decision-making. Even if your health takes a turn for the worst estate planning gives you a voice when your health deteriorates or after you're gone. Marin Miller bam attorney at law is currently providing free consultations to find out more about estate planning or to book an appointment. Call Marin at (206) 485-4066 or visit Salem that's S a L U s-law.com today. Thank you for your support of leadership development in the Tri-Cities. Well welcome, Jessica. This is the first time we get to meet. I've heard your name in the community a lot. And so it's like, I've got to interview her. So it is great to meet you today. Sorry. So then our tries to the influencers can get to know you tell us about what your organization does, the uniqueness of it. And I think I know what you probably spend 80% of your day doing Speaker 4: Sure. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I am the founder and owner of empowered health Institute and we are a primary care medical clinic that is run a little bit differently. So we are a membership model, which means that our patients pay a fee to be part of our practice. And we've taken out the middleman, mainly insurance and allow ourselves a lot more time with our patients, which has been wonderful. And the reason why I started empowered health in the beginning was because I was seeing a huge problem with time to be able to spend with patients and became increasingly frustrated because the 10 minutes slots that I was getting each day with my patients was not enough to do more than push a pill or change a dose. And that is just not what health and wellness is should be about. And so I, I decided to found empowered health and, and by doing this, we're actually two years old this year, this month, and it's been amazing. So we're able to spend 90 minutes at our new patient appointments, getting to know our patients and actually understanding what the root causes that's actually causing them problems. And yeah, it's been incredibly rewarding. Speaker 3: Thank you for doing that, that just sort of blasted away at the old model. And I know some of your patients and they're just, they love that extra time that you get to spend with them. Speaker 4: Yeah. Brought the healing piece of medicine back. I know in it, for me and our patients, that's, that's exactly what they say too. Speaker 3: So why do you love to do what you do? Speaker 4: Yeah, well, I, you know, I got into medicine out of college because I love the science behind it. I am so fascinated with the human body and the ability for the body and the desire to heal. And so basically if we can get out of our own way and know the right tools, our body wants to heal us. And, and so that's why I got into medicine. I actually also applied to business school at the same time as I applied to medical school and I got accepted to both. And so it really was, you know, a hard moment for me to decide which one to pursue. And so medicine one, but being able to start empowered health and also now run a business, suits my personality very well. So it's been a great fit for me, both, both sides. Speaker 3: So you can't do it alone. You have to have a team. So who do you surround yourself with within the practice? And then who else do you surround yourself with outside of your practice to help you be more successful? Yeah, Speaker 4: Well, I mean, my practice is obvious. You know, I've got, we have five employees now and I could not do it without my team. They are, they bring a lot of their own personality and their own ideas to the table. And what I've had a lot of fun with as a leader is allowing them space to actually create and do new things. And so we're always looking for new ways to help support our patients in, in their health and wellness journey from the standpoint of business and, and being able to come and create something new in this community. I've actually been really fortunate because I do, I did grow up in the Tri-Cities and I do have a network of friends here. And so when I was ready to start empowered health, you know, I know the business attorneys, I know the landlord owners. I know, you know, so it's been really fortunate for me. Speaker 4: I've been really supported, you know, Brett Spooner is a close friend of mine, a lot of advice on starting a startup company. I'm also really fortunate that my brother, Casey Stratton and my husband max Schneider both have business degrees. And so I'm able to pick their brains on everything from finance to, you know, employee management and all of those things. I also think it's really important to have female mentors. And so I do have a mentor in the community who is a serial entrepreneur in the metastatic space, Nicole Scharamonte. And she has been wonderful in helping me to look at business and leadership from the standpoint of, of what a female brings to the table. That's a little bit unique. And so that's, those are the people that I've been really fortunate to be surrounded by and supported by and, and the list is even longer, but those are just some of the things, what a fantastic Speaker 3: Personal board of directors that you have so fortunate. So leaders have growth mindsets. So how are you constantly evolving as a leader and what's in your own professional development plan? Speaker 4: Yeah. This is such a great question, you know, and I really think about it. If I look back over my life, I think there's phases of growth as a leader. I have always personally been very interested in personal development. I actually started a personal development book club when I lived in Milwaukee and it's still going on today. Unfortunately, I can't be part of it anymore having moved here. But so I did that, you know, I have done coaching for myself prior to starting empowered health. I think the phase that I've been in in the last two years for personal development has really been trial by fire and being in it and, you know, going through and recognizing problems as growth opportunities. I'm definitely, I think we're entering a new phase and we just actually hired a nurse practitioner. So our, our practice is expanding, but I'm excited to be able to take the next step for myself and personal development. Now that we have another team member who's accepting patients. So, Speaker 3: So you brought up a book clubs, so books, probably a big deal for you, as you think back over the last few years, which books have been made the biggest impact on you? Oh gosh. There's so many now. Speaker 4: Yeah. The one thing I think has, has been a pretty one, pretty good one. Yeah. And I think just the concepts of, of organizing around what are, what are the few things that you want to get done and having laser focus on that. So that's been, that's been a big one for me. Yeah. Speaker 3: I love that book. It's like, what's the one thing you can do that if you do it, all the other things leave there become less yeah. Less burdensome or just maybe not even essential anymore. That's a great question to ask. Yeah. So to avoid burnout and negativity, how do you feed your mental and emotional health and wellness on a regular basis? Cause you got to be the role model. Speaker 4: So, you know, this is, yeah, this is my life. I love this question. You know, a couple of different things. I mean begin with, yes. It, it really comes down to recognizing that, you know, our nutrition matters, our sleep matters. I definitely emphasize working out and feel a big difference if I'm not able to get on the treadmill and just walk, you know, a few times a week. So those key things in my life, I also really do a very good job of shutting off. At the end of the day, I will stop work. I have kind of a hard stop time in the evening and recognize it's so important that I, my brain needs to rest and spend time with my family and my spouse. And I also, one huge thing as far as having perceived balance in my life is travel. We, even if it's just getting out of town for the weekend, it's the time that I find to be most fulfilling as far as reconnecting with my kids and my husband. And so it's, it's a huge part of my life. It's what makes the day-to-day worth it for me. And you know, I've never been to Europe, so I'm not talking about, you know, worldwide travel, but just getting out of town, camping or going to Leavenworth. You know, these are just things that are really important to me. Speaker 3: Yeah. I, they say vacation is an attitude adjustment. It's a code word for attitude. Adjustment. Exactly. Speaker 4: Getting out of the house. Speaker 3: Yes. Well, interesting on a nutrition exercise, you mentioned a few of those things. What is the common message that you give to your patients in those two areas, nutrition and exercise. I'm sure there's someone on the call or on the listening today on the podcast. That's like, I really want to lose weight or I want to live healthy and have that, that lifestyle wellness. What would you say? Speaker 4: Well, from a nutrition standpoint, I would say eat real food. You know, if your grandma wouldn't recognize it, get rid of it. If, if it has more than five ingredients on the label, it's probably not something that should go in your mouth. So start with real food. Okay. And from an exercise standpoint, you know, we talk a lot at empowered health about movement is w it can be anything. Movement is exercise. It does not have to be at a gym. It doesn't have to be a formal class. If you get out and you start making movement more part of your day to day life, you're going to have health benefits. Fantastic. Thank you. So Speaker 3: How do you get things done? So you're with you with patients, but you also run a business. So how do you organize yourself? I also love this Speaker 4: Question because if I, if I picked one word for myself, organization is probably one of the top ones. Yeah. So I, you know, my, my phone, I used to do list and it's, it's, it's my external brain. Right. And I, I truly wish I'm waiting for the day and maybe it exists where I can be in the shower and talk to to-do list to, to continue my list. Cause that's where all the great ideas come. I'll just some white space there. So yeah. So I use that religiously as, as my days, get more crowded or there's certain days of the week that I have more self-expectation. I actually will write out based on the hour, whether it's 60, 30, or 15 minute intervals and schedule in my, my task list for the day. And oftentimes what that does is it makes me realize that I have way too many things that I expect myself to accomplish that day and I can move them in advance. And it helps me feel like I'm accomplishing things and having, like I said, appropriate expectations for my time. Speaker 3: Yeah. It sounds like you're at achiever like me. And if we put too many things on our lists and then we don't get all of them done, we feel like we failed, which is ridiculous. Isn't it, we're getting way more done than the average person. But yeah. So we have to have that reality check. You have to do this. This is something I use with my team too. So listeners it's T O D O I S T. And I'm just reading a book called now do more better, which is like a faith-based productivity book. And they actually have a chapter on to-do list in the book and tell you how to set it up. Speaker 3: So that's pretty cool. All right. Before we head into our next question to find out how Jessica steps back looks at the bigger picture, let's check in with our sponsor located in the Parkway, you'll find motivation, new friends and your new coworking space at fuse. Whether you're a student just starting out or a seasoned professional, come discover all the reasons to love coworking at fuse come co-work at fuse for free on Fridays in February, enjoy free coffee or tea, Wi-Fi printing conference rooms, and more, and bring a friend. If you use this, where individuals and small teams come together in a thoughtfully designed resource, rich environment to get work done and grow their ideas. Comprised of professionals from varying disciplines and backgrounds. Fuse is built for hardworking, fun, loving humans. Learn more about us@fusespc.com or stop by seven to three, the Parkway in Richland Washington. So it's easy to get trapped into reacting in leadership. There's problem comes up, got to deal with it. So how do you specifically step back and look at the bigger picture? Speaker 4: Yeah, I think this is a really a great question. And of course this happens, right? It's, it's unavoidable that these times are going to come up as a leader and as a business owner. And so for me, I think the first thing that I've learned, and this is definitely an in process, but is to step back time-wise, you know, allow 24 hours for the dust to settle, to recognize that there are very few times where a crisis has to be acted on immediately, and that allows my emotions to settle. And then I'm acting a little bit more out of logic, the logic side of my brain versus the emotional. And so, so that's the first thing that I do. And then the second is just remembering the goals. What is the bigger picture? And actually, and sometimes it requires actually just writing it down and looking at it that way. So that's that those are the things that I've started to work on and seem to give me some benefit here. Yeah. Inserting Speaker 3: That 24 hour pause. That's good. Good and good advice. Do you have a strategic plan for your business as you look out, you know, maybe one to three years, I know things are changing so fast, but do you have one? Speaker 4: Yes, we do. It's actually something. Well, as, as the owner and with my spouse, we have a strategic plan that we put into place before we even opened the business. But the one that I'm more proud of and that we use more on a regular basis is the strategic plan that our team has put together. And we spent a lot of time on this in the fall last year. And it is, it's really fun too. It's been actually broken down to by month and, and by product. And so it's fun to go back and revisit that at our team meetings each month, as we, as we travel forward through the year, Speaker 3: Give us a little bit more of an insight into that. Was it a retreat that you did? Was it questions that guided you through, how did you sort of culminate that vision as a team, as a team? Speaker 4: Yeah, so it started, you know, it starts from myself and my spouse. We do a retreat together and we set the big picture goals, and then we really looked at it from the standpoint of, you know, what impact do we want to have? How do we want to grow? What, how can we be better community players? And so we broke it out into five key goals that we have. And then within those goals, we have initiatives that we can act on. And so we broke it down there further. I have a team member. It's actually our coach. We have a health coach that works with our clinic and she does, she's very organized, does a little bit of life coaching also. And one of her great skill sets is, is breaking these things down into Excel spreadsheets in a way that we can all utilize them. So based on our five goals and our initiatives, we actually then develop tasks and then assign them to each individual on our team. So we each are color coded tasks that we, that we're responsible for and that we come back to on a monthly basis to keep each other accountable. Speaker 3: Love that I'm nerding out on that spreadsheet right now. Speaker 4: It is beautiful. Speaker 3: Yeah. That's funny. So last year, you know, COVID hit, did you have to make some key moves yourself for your organization in the last year to be responsive strategic in an uncertain time? Or did you just keep rolling along? Speaker 4: Yeah, I think like most small businesses, there was definitely some, some quick thinking of course safety was first in my mind, you know, as a medical doctor, we have to make sure that we're not putting our patients or our employees at risk. And so we did transition to telemedicine as much as, and stayed at that until we were able to start safely re-introducing in-person visits and, and then slowly moved forward. We are, we now have all of our staff back in our office and, and are, you know, navigating that, but we did have to make quite a few changes. And from a business standpoint, you know, we pulled back on any, maybe more unnecessary spending and, and kind of thought through that. And it was an interesting exercise for myself to go through, to say, what is the worst case scenario here? And to really look at the trajectory, had a lot of great support from my mentors at that time point. I'll never forget being on calls with both, you know, Brett and Nicole and, and hearing very similar feedback from both of them on strategy. What Speaker 3: Was the hardest part of the last year for you? Speaker 4: Oh, the constant change, you know, I have two young kids, I have a five-year-old and an eight year old and between their schooling and changes in, you know, work location for my spouse and support, that was probably the uncertainty. The constant change Speaker 3: Was telemedicine really hard. Or did you adapt to that pretty quickly? Speaker 4: Telemedicine is interesting because there's definitely a lot lost when you cannot put hands on the patient and see them in person, but it, wasn't hard from the standpoint of the technology and engaging. And luckily again, when you spend 90 minutes with your patients to get to know them at the very first visit, plus a 60-minute follow-up, I know these patients very well. And so to be able to pop in quickly for a telemedicine visit actually feels like talking to a friend on the phone. Wow. That's awesome. Speaker 3: How do you best lead organizational change? You know, that you've been doing it for two years. There's probably been a lot of change that you've had to guide your people through. And for most people change is hard unless you've got a unique team where it's, they're all just like, sure. Let's go. Speaker 4: Yeah, no, I know they are pretty unique, but yes, I agree. Change is hard for everyone. You know, the approach that I have learned works best for myself and for the team members that I've had is really bringing whatever the problem is to them. And I've of course thought about it. I thought of what solution I think would be the best, but asking, you know, what do you think is a solution here? What do you suggest? And I've had great results with that. And oftentimes I'm surprised by a brilliant idea that I hadn't thought about. And so I find it's a way to make everyone part of the solution and get everyone's perspective, and yet also provide appropriate direction. Speaker 3: Yeah. So staying close to your team's a big deal, because then it becomes, what do they say of if I can weigh in, then I'll buy in right Speaker 4: On that side. That's very well quite Speaker 3: Well. One of the most difficult tasks of a leader is when you must have a difficult conversation with a team member. So how do you bolster the courage to do that? Speaker 4: Yeah, I think I saw something on Instagram recently about, there's no better way to ruin a good employee than to watch you tolerate a poor employee. Again, I, you know, that just really hits home. Right. It's so, from, from my standpoint, I don't know if it comes down so much to courage is it's just, I recognize that those hard conversations are just part of the job. And if I want the rest of my team and the business and my patients and myself to do well, those conversations have to be had. Speaker 3: Yeah. They say out of caring comes courage. Right. So if you care about the person to hold back from telling them anything would be an act of selfishness, right. Because nobody's growing, I'm not growing as the leader, because I don't want to have that conversation and they're not growing because they haven't gotten the feedback. That's another, Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely. Really good point. Speaker 3: So let's talk about our community a little bit. Tri-Cities so your Tri-Cities girl, right? Good. Yes. That's where my kids went. So you want to be a visible influencer in our community. Right. And how do you do that? Speaker 4: Yeah, so, well, it's interesting what you envision yourself doing when you grow up and what the reality is. I would have never chosen this for my path. That's very, it's even surreal to be here, sitting here with you today, but I think the first thing is getting involved, you know, and when we moved back to the Tri-Cities, we knew, and we, we discussed it as a, as a couple, my spouse and I, that, you know, we were going to step out into positions in the community to, to have influence, to meet people, to understand what the needs of the community are. So, you know, I serve on the board of the Tri-City chamber of commerce. I'm also associate board member of Giza credit union. And so I think it's, it's just about getting out there and understanding what, what is the community doing? What's driving it, what are the needs? Speaker 4: And then start plugging in, and then, you know, bringing your unique self to the table. It's really fun to be a speaker in the health and wellness world here in the Tri-Cities and we need it. We need something to change. We're actually in a really sad space from, you know, especially from primary care and doctors want to do a really good job. They want to love their patients. They want time and it's being taken away. And so to be here and to be able to speak to that is pretty powerful. And so I think the influence just comes naturally, if you're passionate about what you're talking about. Speaker 3: So you mentioned a couple of boards, would you recommend a Tri-City influencers to consider being on a board and why? Speaker 4: Absolutely. I mean, again, it's, it's an opportunity to network and to understand what's going on in the community. It's also really great way to learn from other organizations. You know, I mentioned the strategic plan that we put together at empowered health. It's actually very closely modeled just to the format that seen Giza use. And it's, you know, it's just, it's a great way to learn and to have mentorship and, and connect. Speaker 3: So you're you and your husband are both business owners and, you know, he got a couple of kids, he said, so how do you make time for just you as a couple? Speaker 4: Yeah. We're still, you know, we're still figuring this out. We've tried a couple different things, but you know, a lot of it's just communication and having time to connect in the mornings or at night, I cannot say we're perfect at this. You know, we've definitely put into place date nights and had that. Not always work out, but yeah, so we, we spend time together whenever we can get it. And like I said, I think the biggest thing that we do is really, we travel, we book our travel plans a year in advance and his family still lives in Milwaukee. So part of that's just because we have to, and we have to plan, but, you know, even just getting away for a weekend as a family or just the two of us is probably the way we reconnect. Speaker 3: So tell us about your marketing plan, because to see like you're visible out there. So what kinds of things are you doing on social media? Do you have a newsletter? That kind of stuff? Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah. Well, of course I would be remiss if I didn't mention how we got started with introducing empowered health to the community. And that's largely been through a local marketing firm, brand Kraft media, and they have done worlds. They for supporting, you know, developing our website, our brand and introducing us. But as far as internal marketing, we, we do have a marketing director, Leah, who you've met and she works a lot on our social media, our Instagram. We also have a newsletter, which I'm very proud of and it goes out monthly non-members can go ahead and sign up for it on our website to get access to that. And we put a lot of content in there about lifestyle and supplements and even, you know, latest research on things like COVID and, and, you know, the vaccine and melatonin and all of those different things that have come out about COVID. So that is one way that we've really engaged in showing the community what we do. And the idea is that if you're interested in what we're putting out there, then you can come and learn more about our clinic. Speaker 3: Fantastic. It sounds like that newsletter is something I want to subscribe to too. So that'd be great. So how can they, how can people subscribe to that? What's your website and what's your other ways they can people contact you? Yeah. Speaker 4: So our website is empowered health institute.com. And again, you can sign up for the newsletter on there. There's a box to do that. And we are also on Facebook, under empowered health Institute and Instagram as well. Yeah. Speaker 3: Fantastic. Well, finally, Jessica, what advice would you give to new leaders or anyone who wants to growing and gaining more influence? Speaker 4: Yeah, I think, I mean, it definitely goes back to getting involved in the community and, and recognizing that even if you don't necessarily feel like you have something different, you do, you bring something unique based on your experiences and finding that niche and what you're passionate about and stepping into that in a way to make a difference and just moving forward. Speaker 3: Good stuff. Good stuff. Well, thank you for all you do to make the Tri-Cities a great place and keep growing forward. Thank you, Paul, let me wrap up our podcast today with a leadership resource to recommend, Hey, has it been a long time since you've gotten your team off site and done a retreat, things are opening up more now and I would love to be your facilitator for that. There are so many benefits for retreats, offsite, its relationship building its strategic planning. You can enhance your communication. As a result, we could do a disc assessments. We can do emotional intelligence assessments. We'll just customize that to fit whatever needs your group has for just getting closer together and being visionary for the rest of the year. So just reach out to me@paulcasey.org. Again, this is Paul Casey, and I want to thank my guest, Jessica Schneider from empowered health Institute for being here today on the Tri-Cities influencer podcast. And we want to thank our TCI sponsor and invite you to support them. We appreciate you making this possible so we can collaborate to help inspire leaders in our community. Finally, one more leadership tidbit for the road to help you make a difference in your circle of influence. Benjamin Franklin said an investment in knowledge pays the best interest until next time, keep growing forward. Speaker 2: Thank you to our listeners for tuning in to today's show Paul Casey on a mission to add value to leaders by providing practical tools and strategies that reduce stress in their lives and on their teams so that they can enjoy life and leadership and experience their desired results. If you'd like more help from Paul in your leadership development, connect with him@growingforwardatpaulcasey.org for a consultation that can help you move past your current challenges and create a strategy for growing your life or your team forward. Paul would also like to help you restore your sanity to your crazy schedule and getting your priorities done every day by offering you is free. Control my calendar checklist, go to WW dot, take back my calendar.com for that productivity tool or open a text message 2 7 2 0 0 0, and type the word growth Speaker 3: Tri-Cities influencer podcast was recorded at Fuse SPC by bill Wagner of Safe Strategies.

In this episode, Creator of The Magnetic Soul-Work Success System, Keiya Rayne, talks about her process from no talk to TEDx talk. Today, Keiya talks about leveraging the power of energy to land a TEDx talk, how to set yourself up for success, and how to achieve a calmness and confidence in the Red Circle. How did Keiya go from having no talk to stepping onto a TEDx stage? Hear about the secret sauce to creating, developing, and delivering an Influencial talk, find out how the TEDx talk has changed Keiya, and get her advice for her younger self, all on today’s episode of The Healthy, Wealthy & Smart Podcast.   Key Takeaways “We have all these different experiences of our lives, and when we bring them together it makes the essence of our lives, and it gives us a message that we can impart to others and help them improve their lives.” “The secret sauce is hiring a mentor.” “When you’re giving a TEDx talk, you want to appeal to a lot of people.” “When you have an idea that’s worth spreading, then it’s universal.” “The human energy is so powerful.” Keiya’s 1-minute energy reset tool: “Pivot, pause, smile.” “The most important thing is to make the decision and have the intention to do so.” “A lot of times we’re so focused on doing. I want to introduce the idea of the beingness - the energy of lightness about what you desire.” “People buy from you based on how you make them feel.” “A lot of times we’re afraid to even take that step. Set the intention to do that, apply, and go for it. If you have that desire, then the universe wants you to have it.” “Nothing is ever going to replace rehearsing.” “When you feel comfortable and confident, and you’ve embodied your talk, then you’re free.” “Be still, and trust that everything is going to be okay.”   More about Keiya Rayne Influential TEDx Speaker, Keiya K. Rayne, is a Clarity Coach, Relationship Expert, Intuitive Healer, and the Creator of The Magnetic Soul-work Success System. Described by one of her clients as Yoda, but only cuter, for more than 15 years, she’s helped her clients master their mindset and attraction energy, so they're able to achieve a higher level of success in the areas of Love, Business, and Purpose with unexpected ease. Keiya’s been featured in the documentary, The Big Talk Over Dinner: Race and immigration, The Big Talk, Follow me Friday, Courage Up podcasts, as well as various online magazines publications. She’s a recipient of The White House President’s Volunteer Service Award for her humanitarian work domestically and globally.   Suggested Keywords TEDx, TED Talk, Speaking, Public Speaking, Talking, Experience, Energy, Determination, Confidence, Preparation, Pivot, Pause, Smile,   Keiya’s TEDx talk: Being Taught to Form a Line is the Greatest Gift We Can Ever Receive   To learn more, follow Keiya at: Website:          https://www.keiyakrayne.com Facebook:       Keiya Rayne Instagram:       @keiyakrayne Twitter:            @keiyakrayne LinkedIn:         Keiya Rayne   Subscribe to Healthy, Wealthy & Smart: Website:                      https://podcast.healthywealthysmart.com Apple Podcasts:          https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/healthy-wealthy-smart/id532717264 Spotify:                        https://open.spotify.com/show/6ELmKwE4mSZXBB8TiQvp73 SoundCloud:               https://soundcloud.com/healthywealthysmart Stitcher:                       https://www.stitcher.com/show/healthy-wealthy-smart iHeart Radio:               https://www.iheart.com/podcast/263-healthy-wealthy-smart-27628927   Read the Full Transcript:  Speaker 1 (00:01): Hey Caio, welcome to the podcast. I'm so excited to have you on, and it's so great to see you. Speaker 2 (00:08): Likewise, it's a pleasure to be here. It's like, you know, a family reunion side rail to be here Speaker 1 (00:14): This whole month. We're talking about how to get on a TEDx stage. And I was part of the speaker salon, which is by Tricia, Brooke, who is also a guest this month. And I met you and I met Kate and we're all getting together to talk about how to get on a TEDx stage and really just how to do a talk. Right? Yeah. So let's start. My first question is how did you go from having no talk to getting on the TEDx stage? I think Speaker 2 (00:45): Everybody wants to know. Yes, yes. That is, you know, it's a very fascinating story. I actually met Tricia Brooke at an event. And when I met her, there was something that was just in her energy that drew me to her and I just really fell in love with her. And of course she mentioned, she was, of course speaking about speaking. And I just casually mentioned to her, I'm like, you know, I'm going to get on your stage now. I did not really have an interest of getting on her stage. I, you know, I knew, you know, in my life like getting on a stage at some point in my life was going to happen. You know, I just, I just knew that, but at that particular time, I was really just kind of like, yeah, you know, that sounds good. Well, of course, two weeks later, I get this email from Trisha saying, Hey, I'm launching this week or salon and that's what happened. And so I did speak her salon and it was through the speaker salon. Now, when I arrived on the speaker salon, I had no talk whatsoever. And, you know, with Trisha, she really creates a safe space for you to just get up and share from your heart, from your soul. And I got up and whatever she was able to pull out of me you know, most people were like, wow. And so Speaker 1 (02:12): I can, yes, that is true. I will, I will agree with that. Speaker 2 (02:17): Right. And that's right, you were there. And and that was the making of my TEDx talk. And then later on I did another speaker salon and that was where one of the TEDx producers was in the audience. And that's how I landed my TEDx talk. Speaker 1 (02:36): Yes. And now let's talk about, so do you have, did you have a specific process by which you had your idea, you then took that idea and formulated your talk? Speaker 2 (02:53): Well, you know, thankfully the idea from my talk came from the speaker salon. And so for me, what was great about that was that I already had something. And so I was able to really just, and it's interesting because my TEDx talk had pieces of my speaker salon talk, and there's something that I will share later, but there's a little, the secret sauce that was, you know, really working with someone to help you do that. But it was really, you know, receiving the support, I believe from Tricia in working with that talk and being able to take it, it's fascinating because, you know, we was able to take all these different experiences that I've had and was able to bring them into this talk. And a lot of times, you know, we may think of ourselves like, well, you know, I don't really have a talk and not realizing that, you know, we have all these different experiences of our lives and when we bring them together and really makes the essence of our lives, and it really gives us something that we can a message that we can impart to others and, and, and help them improve their lives, inspire them in some way. Speaker 2 (04:17): So you don't have to reinvent the wheel to find these talks. You can look at your life experience, look at within yourself and say, Hey, wait, this happened to me and it might help someone else is abstinence kind of what I got. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And just keep in mind though, you know, TEDx talk is a very different type of talk, so it's not like it's a keynote talk or write it. It's a very specific type of talk, which I'm sure, you know, Trisha will elaborate on that a lot more, but either way, right. There were still all these different pieces that came together to create that top. Yeah. Right. And now you alluded to this before, but the secret sauce to creating, developing and delivering this impactful TEDx talk, what is that secret sauce? You know, it's, it's, it's, it's a V it's, it's simple, but it's not. Speaker 2 (05:13): And I'm going to tell you, the secret sauce is hiring a mentor and they'll just, you know, just hire Patricia, Brooke, because I, I just believe, and she doesn't even know what I'm saying this, but I really believe she she's just the best. I mean, she knows this inside and out, but she is, you know, she has a hearing and I, and this is something that she's really masterful at helping other people share their story. And so when you're able to find that type of person who can really help you in all these pieces, right. And then, you know, because like I said again, right. Tedx talk is, is is, you know, we suspend the islands and they may say it in America too. Like, you know, a horse of a different color, you know? So when you're getting on, when you're dealing with the red circle, right. Speaker 2 (06:07): You, you really need to know if that's right. If you want it to be impactful right. And influential, then you want to get someone who knows how to make that happen for you. Yeah. And I should also say, I'm glad that you kind of said, it's, it's different than a keynote talk. Right. Because when you're at a keynote talk and you're at a conference or something like that, you're really directing that talk to a specific group of people. Right. So you really have narrowed down in each down to maybe what is probably your ideal audience, but when you're giving a TEDx talk, you want to appeal to a lot of people. Was that difficult? Speaker 2 (06:50): It wasn't. And I'm going to tell you why. I didn't think it was difficult. I think it was because of the message, right. The idea worth spreading. And so when you have an idea that's worth spreading, then it's universal. Yeah. That's very true. Hey, wait a second. What was your TEDx talk about? We didn't even mention that yet. I mean, we'll mention it to get at the end, but what was, what was your TEDx talk about? Give us the cliff notes and then of course we'll have a link to it in the podcast. Exactly. Exactly. Well, it, it's how being taught to form a line is the greatest gift you can ever receive. And so all I'm going to say about that is, you know, we all learn how to form, you know, like what we were like in grade school, learn how to form a line and not realizing the impact that something as simple as that has had, have had on our lives, as well as, you know, other people around the world who really don't know how to form lines. Speaker 2 (07:54): Right. And through my humanitarian work, you know, I did humanitarian work for many, many years traveling around the world. And that was a big thing. Just getting people to form a line. And so that's kind of, you know, a little, I don't want to give it all away. No, no, no. Don't give it all the way we want people to go and watch it and listen to your words. Yeah. So now let's take us to that moment of when it was your turn to give your talk, you have to go into the quote unquote red circle. So how do you set yourself up energetically for success? How do you stay calm? Cause I feel like if I was wearing my Garmin watch, my heart rate would be like 106. Like it would be off the charts. I would be so nervous. So how do you do this? Speaker 2 (08:42): Well, you know, the thing is, you know, the nerves are there, but energetically, you know, I started setting myself up and which is something I do every day. Right. So it is a, it is a non-negotiable practice for me to really set myself up energetically every day. And that is, you know, through meditation, through journaling, through you know, getting quiet and doing all those things that will enable me to really get into a calm state and, you know, the more you practice it right in, and you're in, you know, that right? So the more that, you know, so that is something that I've practiced for so long. And so that when it was time for me to get on the stage, I had that to reach back to. And so I, I really was able to kind of channel right. Being calm because it was, it was something that practice because when you're ready to go on that stage, it's just, I mean, you know, everything is happening. Speaker 2 (09:44): You're what am I going to remember my lines? And, and it wasn't the time for that. And, and just to get in the zone, but when you set yourself up for that, right, you, you are really working on your vibration on, on, on your nervous system and calming yourself down, you know, then that makes that that's a game changer, because that was one of the things that I heard quite a bit was you looked so calm when you gave your talk, you know, it was like, you just, you were just walking, like you were floating. It is like, Hey, you don't know how much, you know, right. It was all that meditation and breathing exercise that I did. Speaker 1 (10:23): I think that's a really great point for people to understand is that you're still nervous, but you had some tools to help mitigate that a little bit. Now, would you recommend, let's say someone they want to get on a TEDx stage and let's say they're accepted. We'll just throw that out there. Is this something that you would recommend someone to do in preparation for that or just something to do just because you're a human being Speaker 2 (10:49): Living in this world? Well, both, I think just, you know, just as a human being, living in this world, right. We have so much to deal with and I'm really, really big on, you know, mastering your energy and understanding, you know, the human and the human energy is so powerful. And I think it's one of those things that we as humans don't really give a lot of attention to, you know, like we just don't realize the power of, of our energy and, and of our vibration and how, when we learn to manage that, and we can also use, we can also learn to leverage that as well. So it's, you know, when you learn how to do the two, wow. Yeah. It really, it, it, it puts you in the center and it really assist you in every area of your life. Speaker 1 (11:43): And do you have for the listeners, if they're curious, like, what the heck is she talking about? How can I do that? Do you have like a quick example of how someone do that, or even where they can find out more information about how to do that? Speaker 2 (11:58): Well, you know, it's, that's a great question. And one of the things that I was going to that I'm offering the listeners is what I call a one minute energy reset tool. Right. And what that is. Right. And it's, it's a one minute tool that we can use to always bring ourselves back to the moment. And it's called pivot, pause, smile. Right. Very, very simple. But it's very powerful. Right. And so as, even as you're going through your day and you're like stressed out, and if we just think to pause and you think, okay, I'm going to pivot my energy in this moment. I'm just going to put a smile on my face. Right. In that moment, you can change it. But as well, there are tons of, you know, whether it be method, meditation, breathing exercises, there's quite a bit, but I think the most important thing, right. Because you can find it if you want, it is to make the decision and have the intention to do so. Yeah. And this Speaker 1 (13:04): Is the kind of stuff that I know you probably work with with your clients on the regular, right. Speaker 2 (13:10): Oh, 100% because it's not negotiable. Speaker 1 (13:15): Yeah. And, and now let's talk about, so we talked about how to kind of set yourself up for when you get into that red circle, but what about landing a Ted talk? I mean, that's stressful as well. Right. So can you walk us through your process of how you, like, how did you choose which one, how did you foster your energy toward landing that go ahead. Okay. So Speaker 2 (13:49): In my case, I was actually, you know, because I was, I was kind of recruited if you will. Right. It was like, I was auditioning without realizing I was auditioning for a TEDx talk. And, you know, at the end of Tisha speaker salon, she has people come in various influencers and producers come in. And so in that sense, I was fortunate that sort of the introduction was already made for me because he saw me and it was like, Hmm, I wanna meet her. However, I still needed to apply. And so this is, I feel like it's my secret sauce, right? W in, in terms of applying. So I actually want to go back to when I was giving my talk. Now I knew there were going to be produces influences in the audience. And so I actually had set myself up and a genetically from then to attract and land buy talk. Speaker 2 (15:02): It's really, really important. Right. And so would, that would look like was, again, in my morning practice eyes, you know, set the intention one that, Hey, wouldn't it be great to be chosen by one of the influences or one of the produces. So that was an intention that was already set, right? So there's, there's that energetic piece there sending myself up. This was even when I got on stage to do speaker salon, and again, just having the, what I call the universal law of detachment. And so I wasn't attached to whether I got chosen or not. It was just really important for me to, to give an impactful and inspirational and transformation, transformative talk, but I just want to plant the seed right. That it started. So the, the energy, the energy of everything that you do starts from the very beginning. Speaker 2 (16:11): And so I will tell you, I wasn't surprised by the fact that I was chosen in a way, because I had sort of said that intention, and there was an energy, right. That I was putting out there for that. And not to say that other people weren't doing it right. Because it's, everybody's like, they're putting out, I want to give a talk. Right. But there's something about when you understand and which I spoke about before, when you understand how to leverage energy and you really get to understand the power of attraction that we have to attract what we desire into our lives. Right. And so with all of that, all of that, knowing if you will, which is what my speaker salon talk was about, I think created that vibration within me. Right. So that whoever was in the audience, it made it possible. Right. For kind of, for them to define me. Does that, does that make sense? Speaker 1 (17:19): Yes. And I, I really love that. What was it? The universal law of detachment. Yes. I really I'm. I don't think I've ever heard that before, but I really like it because if you go, it, it sounds to me and correct me if I'm wrong, but you went into this talk with that sort of love detachment. So it wasn't like your whole being was, was predicated on this talk. Right. Is that right? That's exactly correct. Exactly. Speaker 2 (17:50): Correct. And it's also when you learn how to use universal laws and university and just energy. Right. And so these laws are set up to, to support us and we don't know about them. And so would that combination, right? That, that was sort of the, like the, the game, if you will. Right. I was playing, that was w that enabled me to create that sense of lightness. Right. And, and so, and I say that because now let's think about the person who's now applying. Right. So I, I still had to apply, but I was kind of like in, because he saw me. So let's say for the person that you know, is not in front of a producer, and now they're applying to a TEDx talk. And what I want to, what I'd love to invite that person to do is because everything is energy. Speaker 2 (18:47): And so even when you were filling out that application, if you're filling out that application with the energy of desperation, Oh my God, I really want to give this talk. And, and, and, but there's so many other, all of that, right. You're, you're going there is just like, you're going to block yourself from attracting that talk. Now I'll tell you something. I heard I was listening to two women speak about applying for TEDx talks and, and both women had already given TEDx talks. And so they were speaking of applying for other TEDx talks. And as I listened to both of them, I can hear the level of, sort of the level of, of stress and frustration in, in, in, in, in all that it takes right. To apply for the TEDx talk and right away, I was like, wow, just, just that alone, just that energy that you even, you know, coming to it from where you're coming from with it will impede the process. Speaker 1 (20:02): Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. And, and I think, I just want to make a clarification when you're talking about that universal law of detachment, it doesn't mean that you're filling it out and saying, Oh, whatever, if I get it, I don't really care. Is that right? Cause that was kind of coming, especially as you were speaking just now I was thinking, wait a second. That doesn't mean that you're like blahzay and like, whatever. Speaker 2 (20:27): Right. Not at all, not at all, not at all. It's, you know, it's, it's, it's kind of, you do your part and then you release it. Speaker 1 (20:36): That makes sense. Yeah. So you're still doing your part with the best intentions with all your, with your energy and your, this is the ASM. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And, and I bring, and I Speaker 2 (20:48): Bring, you know, and I bring, I keep going. I, you know, I go back to the energy piece a lot because, you know, again, for the, let's say for the person who's applying for that top, right. W w w a lot of times we're so focused on doing yes, yes. Right. And so, and we do that with everything. Like, I want something I'm going to go after, what do I have to do to get it? Speaker 1 (21:09): We often say that in an email, what do I have to do? What, what are the next steps? What I have to do next? What do I, yeah, totally, Speaker 2 (21:16): Exactly. Right. And so I want to really introduce the idea of the beingness of that energy of lightness, about what you desire and what you want, be it a TEDx talk or anything else, because it's that sort of, that energy of likeness that, you know, I feel makes, makes you more of a magnet to that. And so you're not impeding it with your okay, I got to do. And, but also as well is that you're leveraging, right. You're leveraging energy in a way, instead of just, you know, all of the, like, what do I got to do? And you're trying to make this happen. Right. It's like, you kind of like, okay, because then the right person will be put in your path, your application, you know, the person that is reading your application that is watching your video. Right. They are going to feel you, they can feel right. So everything is, and so that's why it's so important to bring in, I feel the energetic piece. Yeah. Speaker 1 (22:30): And thank you for that. I think that's great advice for anyone out there that wants to with the, with the aspirations and the hopes of getting on a Ted ex or maybe even a Ted stage. Yes. At some point that will come, these live events will come back. I know it. And, and what has changed for you since you did your TEDx talk? Speaker 2 (22:57): Oh my God. So much, so much, so much in terms of, you know, I will say even my, my level, just my level of confidence that in and of itself, I think my, you know, the income, my clients, just my entire, just everywhere in, in all aspects of my life has really gone to a completely different level, you know, since doing the TEDx and more importantly, just me as a person. Right. I have evolved and grown since then. Yeah. Speaker 1 (23:30): Yeah. Cause oftentimes people, you know, if you're an entrepreneur, you have your own business, you may, part of going onto the TEDx stage is yes. Of course, to get your message out, but also like, will this help my business? Speaker 2 (23:43): Absolutely. Yeah. And it sounds Speaker 1 (23:46): Like people have found you, people have started to want to work with you, which is amazing. Absolutely. Absolutely. And, and that, that's, what's great about, I think just taking the stage in general, really, because people have an opportunity to to hear you. Right. And so as an entrepreneur, it makes it a little easier, right. In terms of you don't need to go looking for people because they've heard you, they've seen you and it, it kind of gives them an insight into who you are. They get to feel you, they get to connect with you. And you know, when people buy from you based on how you make them feel. Absolutely. Absolutely. I love it. Now. Is there anything during this talk, did we, did I gloss over anything? Did we miss anything? And if we did, let me know if we didn't, what's your best advice for someone wanting to get on a TEDx stage, Speaker 1 (24:45): You know, hire Tricia, Brooke. I could second that yes. You know what, we're not, we're not paid to do that. No, we're not right. I'm just going to keep it real, you know what I'm saying? Like, and, and I say that, and I'm gonna tell you why I say that. Right. and also you, right. First of all, if you have the, the, the desire and the intention to do so, go for it. Like just, you know, I think that's the most important, I think a lot of times we're afraid to even take that step. And sometimes someone might think, Hey, you know, a TEDx it's too big. Cause a lot of people will look at that TEDx talk or tend to be like, Oh my God. Right. Like I could never do that. Right. And so, you know, besides hiring Tricia had, you know, said that intention to do that apply and go for it because if you have that desire, then that the universe wants you to have it. Speaker 1 (25:44): Yeah. And, and, you know, working with Trisha or with any other coach, I think just really, really important. I remember during our speaker salon, like I remember people going up and speaking and I was sitting there thinking, I thought this was supposed to be for like, non-professional speakers. Why is everyone like a professional already? And I got up and I was like shrinking in my chair, like, Oh, this is amazing. This is not good. This is amazing. But having Trisha there, cause I remember my idea of doing my talk about my experience with pain. And I was speaking about it in the third person. And I remember a Trisha like, like I was, you know, just maybe a couple of minutes in and she was like that was really good. But let me ask you a question. Is this about you? And I was like, yeah, it's just like, why, why are you talking in the third person? And it's those and that, Speaker 2 (26:44): It's those simple things that we would never be aware of and never. And the other thing I want to say about that too, was that, you know, when I, when I was done with my talk, I was able to, with my TEDx talk, I was able to go into the audience and sit and you know, support and watch the other speakers as well. And there was there was a difference, it was a clear distinction and difference, right. Between the people that, you know, had, I'm able to Tricia speakers in particular because there was, I think two of them that went after me. Right. and the other speakers. And so it, it really Speaker 2 (27:29): Separates you. Yeah. And I would think, and this is, this will be the lab. Maybe we could talk forever, but I think practice, practice, practice. How much did you practice? Let's not gloss over this. Yes, that's right. That's right. Thank you so much. Because when you said was there something that we forgot that was it because in my mind I was like, I, I gotta remember that. So yes. Well all we got all the energy, right. You're, you're centered. You're, you know, you're you're you got your energy together. Nothing. And I mean, add absolutely nothing is going to replace Speaker 3 (28:19): Rehearsing. Yes. Speaker 2 (28:20): Memorizing. And so what gave me that confidence also, right. To be calm was the fact that I knew that talk inside and out and, you know, and, and, you know, Tricia taught us also how to memorize. And so that for me was, was really the key because then, you know, when you feel comfortable and confident and you've embodied your talk, then you free. So thank you for bringing that up because I really wanted to like, make sure that we said, Oh yeah, I can just use my energy. And then yes. Yes. And just to give the listeners some insight how, if you could even remember how many hours do you think you rehearsed? Cause it's not like five hours. It's not like you just did it a couple of times. No, no, no, man. You know, it's, it's kinda 24 seven almost really like I'm, I'm serious. Speaker 2 (29:31): Like I, you know, in the beginning, you know, and I think we kind of, I give myself like a little bit of a leeway, like kind of in the beginning I was like, okay, let me, you rehearse. I think for the last, and I didn't have a whole lot of time. I had, how much time did you have since, since you knew you were going to get the talk till the day you gave it. Exactly. And it was unusual, right. Because usually people can have, I think like up to six months, I think I found out, I think speaker salon was like July 20th and September 7th. Oh boy. Yeah. Okay. Right. I think it was either June, June, or July. And so I had very little time because I think I was the last person that came on board. Okay. Right. But, but I think we all, we all found out at the same time, but but I mean, because I didn't apply, so I didn't even kind of, I hadn't applied yet. Speaker 2 (30:26): So I kind of didn't even know that I would even be chosen. So it was a very, a very short period of time, which meant rehearsing, rehearsing, memorizing. Like I ate, slept, drank that talk so that I can embody it. So I didn't have to deal with the nerves. Right, right. Excellent. Well, this was great. Now Kaia, where can people find you on social media website, et cetera, et cetera. Awesome. Awesome. Thank you. Yes. People can find me@caiorain.com. Kaia K rain. Actually, I'm going to spell it for you even. I know you're going to have the link. It's K E I Y a K R a Y N e.com. And you can also find me on Instagram and if I'm making it easy for you, everything is Kaia K rain, Instagram, LinkedIn, all those good places. Excellent. Well, thank you so much. And I, Oh, I almost forgot. I have one last question. Knowing where, and I ask everyone this, but knowing where you are now in your life and in your career, what advice would you give to your younger self? Wow, that is, I love, love, love, love, love this question. Speaker 4 (31:46): Yeah. Speaker 2 (31:48): Be still and trust that everything is going to be okay. Fabulous advice. You know, because when I look back and if we all look back at our lives and we look at all the things that we stressed out about and we worried about it and we made ourselves crazy about like every little thing. If you real, if you knew that if I can just have a sense of trust and just chill, I was going to say, chill the hell out. Right. Things are going to work out. So that's, that would be my advice. Excellent advice. And I thank you again. And of course everyone, we will have links to everything Kaia, including her TEDx talk in the notes at podcast Speaker 1 (32:40): Dot healthy, wealthy, smart.com. Thank you so much for coming on this one. Speaker 2 (32:44): Wonderful. Thank you. Oh, this was great. Thank you so much for having me. It was fantastic. Speaker 1 (32:50): And I'll tell you listeners, thank you so much for listening. Have a great week and stay healthy, wealthy and smart.

On this episode of the Healthy, Wealthy and Smart Podcast, I welcome Dr. Jonas Sokolof, DO, a physician specializing in physical medicine and rehabilitation at NYU Langone’s Rusk Rehabilitation to talk about the importance of exercise therapy in cancer care.    In this episode we discuss:  What is Oncological Physiatry Use of exercise in improving function and quality of life  Lifestyle Medicine in Oncology Dr. Sokolof's baseball diamond analogy for rehab  The importance of collaboration in the treatment of patients live with and through cancer  Common side effects from cancer treatments And more!    Resources from this episode:  Round Table Talk: Cancer Rehab and Survivorship  More info on Dr. Sokolof NYU Langone Oncology Rehabilitation Summit: Optimizing Rehabilitation Outcomes Through Exercise   More About Dr. Sokolof:  I am a physician specializing in physical medicine and rehabilitation at NYU Langone’s Rusk Rehabilitation. After completing my residency training at Harvard Medical School, I subspecialized in musculoskeletal/sports medicine and interventional spine care. During this time, I acquired additional skills in the nonoperative treatment of various musculoskeletal conditions, including arthritis, lower back and neck pain, coccygodynia, neuropathy, dystonia, and tendinitis. As a physiatrist, my goal is to help my patients regain function through various nonoperative treatments, including rehabilitation, injections for spine and joint pain, and medication. Whenever possible, I try to avoid prescribing medications for long-term use and prefer a more holistic approach to patient care. For instance, I have expertise in osteopathic manipulative medicine treatment (OMT), also known as manual medicine. OMT is “hands-on care”; I use my hands to diagnose, treat, and prevent illness or injury, through stretching, applying gentle pressure, and using resistance. I often find this modality useful as a supplement to other treatments. If needed, I can also provide people with image-guided injections for the spine and peripheral joints. Additionally, I perform electrodiagnostic testing to diagnose and guide treatment of various neuromuscular disorders. A major focus of mine is the rehabilitation needs of cancer patients and survivors. My goal is to help individuals, from diagnosis to cure, improve overall function and quality of life. I have expertise in diagnosing and treating a variety of cancer treatment–related side effects, such as chemotherapy-induced peripheral neuropathy, radiation fibrosis, lymphedema, and post-mastectomy pain syndrome. As the need for physical rehabilitation grows in the field of oncology, I find it exciting and rewarding to help restore function in anyone who has experienced cancer. I’m also certified in sports medicine, so I’m experienced in treating sports-related injuries in cancer survivors and helping them return to sports and exercise routines. I am passionate about lifestyle medicine, an evolving field that focuses on lifestyle interventions, such as diet, exercise, stress reduction, and smoking cessation, to treat and prevent various chronic conditions and improve function. In my research, I explore lifestyle interventions to improve the lives of people who have had cancer. I also speak at the local and national level about rehabilitation programs for people with cancer. I am a co-chair of the lifestyle medicine counsel for the American Congress of Rehabilitation Medicine and a co-chair of the medical fitness working group for the American College of Lifestyle Medicine. Additionally, I sit on the executive committee for the American College of Sports Medicine’s Task Force on Exercise Oncology.   Subscribe to Healthy, Wealthy & Smart: Website: https://podcast.healthywealthysmart.com Apple Podcasts:      https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/healthy-wealthy-smart/id532717264 Spotify:                   https://open.spotify.com/show/6ELmKwE4mSZXBB8TiQvp73 SoundCloud: https://soundcloud.com/healthywealthysmart Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/show/healthy-wealthy-smart iHeart Radio: https://www.iheart.com/podcast/263-healthy-wealthy-smart-27628927   Read the full transcript here: Speaker 1 (00:07): Welcome to the healthy, wealthy, and smart podcast. Each week we interview the best and brightest in physical therapy, wellness, and entrepreneurship. We give you cutting edge information. You need to live your best life. Healthy, wealthy, and smart. The information in this podcast is for entertainment purposes only and should not be used as personalized medical advice. And now here's your host, Dr. Karen Litzy. Hey everyone. Speaker 2 (00:36): Welcome back to the podcast. I am your host, Karen Litzy and this month, which is the month of April, 2021. We have focused our attention on cancer, survivorship, and oncological rehabilitation. To that end. I am thrilled to announce that on May 11th at 8:00 PM Eastern standard time, this is a Tuesday evening. We will have our round table talk focused on that subject. Oncological rehabbing cancer survivorship. All of the guests from this month will be on that round table talk. So that includes Kristin Carol Jillian Schmidt, Dr. Lisa van Hoose, and our guest today, Dr. Jonas Sokoloff. This is your chance to ask these four amazing experts, any question you want. And I know being a physical therapist going to conferences, I always want to try and get the person's attention to ask them a question. Sometimes you never get the chance. This is your chance. So if you have questions on oncological rehab on cancer survivorship, whether you're a physiotherapist, a healthcare professional fitness, professional, learning more about how to treat this population is imperative because a hundred percent of us are probably going to see someone who has cancer, who has lived through cancer in their lifetime. Speaker 2 (01:55): So how do you sign up? Go to podcast dot healthy, wealthy, smart.com click on the link that says round table talks, and you can sign up right there. And again, it's going to be Tuesday, May 11th, 8:00 PM, Eastern standard time. Now onto today's episode, like I said, today's guest is Dr. Jonas Sokoloff. He is a physician specializing in physical medicine and rehabilitation at NYU Langone Rusk rehabilitation. After completing his residency training at Harvard medical school, he sub-specialized in musculoskeletal sports medicine and interventional spine care as a physiatrist. His goal is to help his patients regain function through various non-operative treatments. And he also has expertise in osteopathic manipulative medicine treatment. Also known as manual medicine it's hands-on care. So he does use his hands to diagnose, treat and prevent injury or illness through stretching, applying gentle pressure and using resistance. A major focus of his is the rehabilitation needs of cancer and survivors is goals to help individuals from diagnosis to cure, improve overall function and quality of life. Speaker 2 (03:06): He has expertise in diagnosing and treating a variety of cancer treatment related side effects, such as chemotherapy induced, peripheral neuropathy, radiation, fibrosis, lymphedema, and post-mastectomy pain syndrome. As the need for physical rehab grows in the field of oncology, he finds it exciting and rewarding to help restore function in anyone who has experienced cancer is also sort of certified in sports medicine. So he's experienced in treating sports related injuries in cancer survivors and helping them to return to sport exercise and routines. And he is also passionate about lifestyle medicine as am I and ever evolving field that focuses on lifestyle intervention, such as diet, exercise, stress reduction, and smoking cessation to treat and prevent various chronic conditions and improve function. And we talk about that in the podcast today. What else do we talk about? Well, we talk about exactly what a physiatrist is and how they work in the field of oncology. Speaker 2 (04:06): We talk about some common side effects that people may experience from cancer related treatments. We also talk about the, his baseball analogy on rehabilitation and getting people back to their sport or back to life, which I love because I'm a softball player. So I had anything with a baseball analogy I'm all in. And he also talks about the importance of lifestyle medicine and why that's important, especially with cancer patients. And he lets us know exactly why that's so important. So a huge thank you to Dr. Socolow for coming on the podcast. And everyone don't forget to sign up for our round table on May 11th, by going to podcast at healthy, wealthy, smart.com and clicking on the round table tab. Enjoy everyone. Speaker 3 (04:59): Hi, Dr. Sokoloff welcome to the podcast. I'm happy to have you here this month, where we're talking all about cancer survivorship. So thank you so much for coming on. Oh, thank you very much for having me. It's really great to be with you. Yeah, this is really exciting. I'm definitely familiar listening to your podcast or floor gray while you're doing and you guys, my pleasure. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for that. And like I said, in your bio, you're a physiatrist and you're here at NYU. And we'll talk about that a little bit later, cause you guys have an oncology summit coming up and we'll talk about how people can sign up for that, but they have to listen to the whole, they have to listen to this whole podcast to get all the goods. So before we get into the meat of the discussion today, can you tell the listeners what oncological physiatry is? So uncle logical desires, you, maybe I should start by what is desire? Speaker 4 (05:58): You know, there's, I'm sure most of your listeners are well aware of what the field of desire tree is all about, but there may be a few that aren't so desire tree also known as physical medicine rehabilitation is a sub-specialty of medicine that involves essentially working with patients to enhance quality of life and physical function for patients that may be suffering from whether it's a an illness or an injury traumatic brain injury, spinal cord injury, or musculoskeletal injury. And it's a, it's a very multi-disciplinary field that overlaps a lot with orthopedics neurology, internal medicine rheumatology sports medicine, and, you know, several others. So you kind of have to know a little bit of everything, but basically the main goal of [inaudible] is to enhance quality of life and physical function. Now in oncological, physiatry is, is sub specialty. Speaker 4 (06:57): So we are experts in neuromuscular and musculoskeletal and other functional impairments that directly affect you know, people living with the beyond cancer, whether it's from the actual cancer itself or from the treatment of cancer. So surgery, radiation, systemic therapies, chemotherapies, immunotherapies, targeted therapies, et cetera. So in a nutshell, that's, that's, that's essentially what the field is about and what drew you to this subspecialty. So I am a sports medicine trained physiatrist. I did three years of a physical medicine rehabilitation residency. Before that you have to do a, a year of a general internship. And then I went on to do a three-year residency in PMNR. And then after that I did another year long fellowship and what's called spine and sports care or spine and sports medicine. So I received training in sports medicine care. So sort of like non-surgical orthopedics, interventional spine psychiatry, injections under fluoroscopy and under ultrasound. Speaker 4 (07:59): And, you know, I thought I was going to, you know, treat, you know, weekend warriors and, you know, athletes and, you know, yoga moms and so forth. And you know, essentially non-surgical orthopedics. But for me, I learned kind of early on in my fellowship year that, you know, I, I tend to kinda get bored doing the same thing, you know, over, over and over. And I, I really liked the variety and really like the challenge. And there was an opportunity to major cancer center in New York where they were looking to hire another physiatrist. They already had two physiatrists and they were looking at another physiatrist who actually had more of a sports medicine, interventional background. And I ended up applying for the position and it was, I was so impressed with the institution, but more importantly, I was, I was really impressed with this opportunity to really make a big impact in the field of oncology and really help like enhance the quality of life for people living with and beyond cancer. Speaker 4 (09:03): I just felt for me, that was more meaningful because there's such a huge need. Unfortunately, people who have the disease of cancer and go through treatment through the whole continuum, they have a lot, a lot of problems with, you know, getting back to the way, the level of functioning and quality of life that they had prior to their diagnosis. There's just a tremendous need, but we've gotten so much better at treating a variety of different types of cancers keeping people alive longer. Unfortunately a lot of these treatments do have a lot of sequelae that, you know, the oncology field, it's just not, they're just not well equipped to deal with these issues. And that's where we really shine as rehabilitation professionals because we are the experts in physical function and quality of life, and we really can make a difference. And I liked that feeling of really being able to make a big difference in the lives of these people. Speaker 3 (09:59): And you had mentioned in there that a couple of things that stood out to me, one that there are more people living after and beyond cancer than before, because of I'm assuming better treatments, better detection. Correct. And you also mentioned that there are side effects from some of these treatments and interventions. And I think oftentimes people think physical therapists alike think, Oh, someone had cancer, they survived it, they must be fine. So what do you see as the most common side effects and where can rehabilitation physical rehabilitation make a difference with those side effects? Speaker 4 (10:44): I would say probably amongst the most common side effects that I see, for example. So I see a lot of breast cancer patients and survivors in my practice and a lot of head and neck cancer survivors, a lot of prostate survivors. I'd say, you know, sequentially after surgery, for example, after mastectomy, or even in breast conservation, surgery, lumpectomy, and so forth. Whereas like you're, you're right. Patients, essentially in many, in many cases they're diagnosed early. They are, you know, very high success rate. The achieved cure is very often, but unfortunately a lot of these people, these individuals are left with a lot of pain and dysfunction, everybody heals at their own pace or rate. So their ICL, I see a great deal of patients who, whereas it it's expected that they're going to sail through their, their treatments. And men, many instances, they have achieved the events they have achieved you know, complete remission, but yet in some way, they're, they're left kind of broken and they're not able to get back to their baseline level of functioning. Speaker 4 (11:50): They have, they may have prolonged pain that lasts longer than what would be expected. They may have more scar tissue. And there's there. These factors may be, are usually multifactorial lifestyle factors come into play. Underlying premorbid conditions come into play you know, whole host of factors. And in many instances they are not, they don't recover as fast and they need a lot of help. So I'd say the biggest, you know, impact. I think the, in my practice, I would say in our breast cancer patients, we see a lot of patients with post-mastectomy pain syndrome pain that lingers way past the recovery period with scar tissue that often results in shoulder dysfunction adhesive capsulitis rotator, cuff dysfunction and impingement, bicipital tendonitis, various other factors that really adversely affect people's abilities to get back to like their life. That's one example that comes to mind, radiation fibrosis. Speaker 4 (12:55): So, you know, chemotherapy, radiation being the cornerstone of treatment for head and neck cancers, a great deal of morbidity there, you know a lot of scar tissue that forms after radiation, that impairs neck range of motion, ability to open your mouth trismus swelling, lymphedema in the head and neck population. Nobody, nobody knows how to handle these types of issues, but as rehabilitation professionals are really well equipped in you know, are able to really make a big impact in the lives of these folks. So I'd say those, those two populations really stand out to me and they are, they do make up a majority of my practice. Speaker 3 (13:37): And one thing that rehabilitation professionals are really proficient as in is exercise. So how can exercise help with these patients to improve their function and quality of life? Speaker 4 (13:49): Right? So we do have very robust data in the form of randomized controlled trials that exercise both aerobic training and resistance chaining can actually help improve several different cancer-related health outcomes. And that includes overall physical functioning lymphedema, anxiety, depression, overall, quality of life and wellbeing. And this comes from, you know, a tremendous amount of rigorous, you know well-designed clinical trials. So we do have, we now have really great evidence supporting this. We actually know that it, that it can be used as medicine, and we all know, I'm sure your listeners are well aware that exercise is medicine and really in oncology, this is actually even more apparent. Speaker 3 (14:39): And when we think about these patients living with and living beyond and through cancer, one of the things at least that I've seen with a lot of my patients that I have seen is that fatigue is an issue. And so when we're thinking about exercise, so as physical therapists, you're sending your patients to us, fatigue is a big issue. Do we center our treatment approach around a graded approach to exercise or to a paced approach to exercise? Or is it one of those answers that it depends. Speaker 4 (15:11): So it's all it's should be a personalized approach, right? It's really not a one size fits all. And that's why, again, it helps to be, you know, it helps for a patient to work with a highly skilled trained rehabilitation professional so that they can really hone in, do a full comprehensive assessment and really understand, you know, what exactly that particularly low patients struggling with with the impairments may lie what their history has been and order to come up with a real, you know, comprehensive, structured, personalized program. Oftentimes we use in rehabilitation, we're using a therapeutic exercise program. So for example, patient has, let's say rotator cuff dysfunction, right? They have imbalance of their scapular scapular stabilizing muscles, right? And they may have altered glenohumeral mechanics that are promoting this condition of impingement, let's say of the supraspinatus tendon and that leads to pain, loss of range of motion. Speaker 4 (16:14): And then that then progresses to let's say, adhesive capsulitis or frozen shoulder, for example. So we would, we would construct a therapeutic exercise program specifically honing in on that specific dysfunction, right. The shoulder. But we can also use, you may say generic exercise. We could use aerobic training and strength and conditioning on top of the therapeutic program, all from a personalized standpoint for what meets the needs of that specific patient in conjunction with a therapeutic exercise program. And that's where I think really where the field is headed is really being able to the goal should not just be, to get the patient out of pain, would get them back to, you know, being able to do some of their life specific activities, but also getting them to an exercise program that should be one of the main goals of ecological rehabilitation program. Speaker 3 (17:10): And I think that's great advice for all the physical therapists and physiotherapists out there listening is that when these patients are coming to you, like we'll take the example of shoulder pain post-mastectomy or post some sort of treatment that we don't want to just focus on. Let's just do exercises and rehab around the shoulder, but let's take it broader and try and make this into like a lifestyle change for the patient. Speaker 4 (17:40): Exactly, exactly. There's a there is a diagram that I often use on a lot of my talks when I lecture on this subject. And it's Speaker 5 (17:50): The baseball diamond approach to rehabilitation is a approach that is utilized in sports medicine. It was it was passed on to me by some folks some physiatrists at the Mayo clinic. It's very simple way to think about it, but essentially your goal is to get, get to home plate, get back to return, to play, you know, so to speak or return to life, do advance through all the bases to get the first space you have to restore range of motion from first base to second base. And you have to start to work on strength from second base, third base. Now you're starting to work on the neuromuscular kinetic chain on the pitcher's mound. You really want to put an exercise program that they should be able to be able to do for the rest of their lives. Because what it's going to do is actually going to, it's going to improve survival. Speaker 5 (18:32): It's going to improve cancer related you know health outcomes. Okay. So it's gonna help them to improve. It's going to help to improve anxiety, fatigue, physical functioning. And this is another thing that I really love about the field of oncological rehabilitation, because not only are we helping to restore quality of life and overall physical function, but we actually have the opportunity to make an impact on the disease itself. We actually can, as rehabilitation professionals can actually change the course of the disease by getting our patients back to a safe and effective exercise program. So it really needs to be incorporated into rehabilitation. It really should be all part of what we're doing as rehab professionals. Speaker 3 (19:14): I really liked that baseball diamond analogy. And, and oftentimes when we think of that return to play, I know the first thing that comes to my mind is as an athlete. So you're getting them back to their sport, whether whatever that sport may be, but you're absolutely right, that that same framework can be used for all of our patients. They have to get back to, it may not be back to the soccer pitch or the baseball field, but they are getting back to returning to play, which is their life Speaker 5 (19:49): That's correct. And even back to their familial roles, there's societal roles, there are vocational roles really getting them back to the things that they want to be doing, the things that they need to be doing to live out the rest of their life. Speaker 3 (20:06): Yeah. I love that baseball diamond going to be using it all the time. I love it. Especially as a former softball player and a former pitcher, I can definitely relate to that. Now we've been saying this word a couple of times throughout the interview, and that is lifestyle. So there is this lifestyle medicine, branch of medicine. So how does that fit into the oncology patient in the world of oncology? Speaker 5 (20:34): So two thirds of the world's cancers, according to the world health organization can actually directly be linked to lifestyle, right? So smoking alcohol dietary intake lack of physical activity, increased stress levels and so forth. So we have as rehabilitation professionals, the opportunity to intervene to provide lifestyle interventions and again, help restore physical function, but also have a major impact on the, the course of the disease itself. So I believe that lifestyle medicine actually should be, is a very important aspect of what we offer in rehabilitative care, especially in on-call oncological rehab. So I try to incorporate it into my practice counseling patients and educating patients on proper nutrition, certainly exercise. We do a lot of cancer counseling and exercise. We offer stress reduction techniques. Certainly when, when patients are smoking we, you know, get them as soon as we can plugged in with smoking cessation programs and so forth and so on. So because there is such a direct relationships to lifestyle and cancer it, it has to be a key component of the rehab plan as well. Speaker 3 (21:51): Yeah. And that, that is all in our lane. Speaker 5 (21:54): Exactly, exactly. Yeah, I mean, you know, the F really up until, you know, recently the thought process, you know, cancer essentially had a very strong genetic component. But right. The it's the way the, the environment or lifestyle is affecting those genes, which we know that, that poor lifestyle can actually turn on a lot of those oncagenes and promote you know, promote cancer growth. So yeah. Speaker 3 (22:26): Yeah. And so what is it coming from you from your position as a physiatrist? What are some things that you really want physical therapists to know when it comes to treating patients that have, or have lived through cancer, Speaker 5 (22:43): Physical therapists that it's, it's safe to put these folks through an exercise program it's safe to put them on a resistance training program as long as it's, you know supervise and as long as, you know, if you're working with a physical medicine rehabilitation physician or a physiatrist, it's really great to partner up so that you can learn, you know, what would be a safe way to approach, for example, a patient with metastatic disease in the spine or metastatic disease somewhere else. You know, in the, in the skeleton, for example, cause I think a lot of therapists may be apprehensive. They don't want to, you know, cause a fracture, for example, they may not want to injure a patient and they're not sure what would be safe. Just know that it is safe when it's done, you know, under the supervision of someone who's as skilled, as trained as yourself, but also helpful if you have members of your oncology community that you can communicate with and determine you know, what would be the great, the best plan for that patient and what would be the safest plan? Speaker 5 (23:57): I mean, therapists were, we, we were in constant communication about the patients programs in our, in our at our site as to what, how you can progress them through an exercise program safely based on, you know, review of imaging and based how, and then how they present clinically. So yeah, I mean, I, I would, I would just say, I think, you know, a lot of these patients can tolerate probably a little bit more than what's been previously done in the past. Speaker 3 (24:29): Awesome. Well, thanks so much for that. And hopefully all the physical therapists and physios and even other healthcare professionals listening or taking notes on all of this, cause this was great. Let's talk about the NYU Rusk rehab. They have an oncology summit coming up. Is it in October, Speaker 5 (24:49): October 1st, it's going to be Speaker 3 (24:51): Featuring our very own Nicole Stout as a keynote. We love her here. Love her, love her so much. So go ahead and talk a little bit more about that. Speaker 5 (25:00): So we are having our first you know, annual uncle logical rehabilitation summit Ruskin suit, NYU school of medicine on it's gonna be October 1st, it's going to be a hundred percent virtual. Eventually as we come out of the pandemic, we will hopefully transition to an in-person program. But this year we're going to starting off as virtual. And the theme of this year's symposium is going to be exercise oncology. So we are going to have oncologists lecturing, certainly physical therapists, speech therapists, occupational therapists Dr. Katie Schmidts, the CSM round table leader in luminary in the field of exercise oncology as well as Nicole Stout, excited to have them are two keynote speakers are really looking forward to providing a robust program for anyone interested in how to implement exercise into a rehabilitative care plan for oncology patients. Speaker 3 (25:58): Yeah. And it's like total coincidence. I got the email for that. Like a couple of days ago, I was like, Oh, this is perfect because here we are doing this interview. So this worked out very, very well. And now where can people find you, if they want to ask you questions, they want to connect with you? Where can they find you? Speaker 5 (26:17): My email probably is the best. I'll definitely find putting it out there. It's my first and last name, so that's Jonas, J O N a S dot SoCal off that's S like Sam. Okay. O L like Larry off, likeFrank@nyulango.org, one word, NYU llangollen.org. Speaker 3 (26:37): Perfect. And we will have all of this links to sign up for the summit and your email in the show notes for this episode at podcast at healthy, wealthy, smart.com. And last question that I ask everyone, is that knowing where you are now in your life and in your career, what advice would you give to yourself as let's say, fresh out of medical school? Speaker 5 (27:05): What would the advice would I give myself fresh out of medical school? I would say, you know, I would say, probably go with your gut. Right. You know, there's a lot of pressure. I think when you're, when you're going through medical training and medical school you know, pulling in different directions on planning your career you have a lot of different factors, financial and I think, you know, I always had wanted to, into going to have a medical career that was going to make a big impact. I think I got a little bit sidetracked along the way, and I, I kinda may have been chasing a different dream, but then when I finally realized what I think what I was meant to be doing, it really kind of brought me back in line on my path. So I'd say, you know, just really follow your gut, you know, pursue your dreams. You know, really go with what you feel is right deep down in your heart, and now you really can't go wrong. So Speaker 3 (28:06): I love it. Great advice. And, and frequently heard advice here on this podcast. So it must be a good one. So, Dr. Sokoloff thank you so much for coming on today and look forward to seeing you at our round table discussion in a couple of weeks. So thank you for that as well. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Speaker 5 (28:26): Thank you. I'll look forward to the round table. Speaker 3 (28:28): Yeah. As in everyone for listening everyone out there listening. Thanks so much. Have a great couple of days and stay healthy. Speaker 1 (28:34): Be wealthy and smart. Thank you for listening. And please subscribe to the podcast at podcast dot healthy, wealthy, smart.com. And don't forget to follow us on social media.  

In this episode, Co-Founders of Survivorship Solutions, Jillian Schmitt and Kristin Carroll, talk about Cancer Survivorship and the need for Caner Rehab Education. Today, Jillian and Kristin talk about the prevalence of cancer, the importance of competency in cancer rehabilitation for all rehab clinicians, and compiling educational courses from leaders in the field. When should cancer rehabilitation start? Jillian and Kristin tell us that learning is not enough, hear about the value of mentorship, and Jillian and Kristin’s community of clinicians, all on today’s episode of The Healthy, Wealthy & Smart Podcast.   Key Takeaways “Cancer is not just one type of cancer. Cancer is not just what you’re seeing on the outside, there are physical changes on the inside as well.” “One thing that physical therapists have to keep in mind is that 100% of physical therapists, at some point in their physical therapy career, will see someone with cancer.” “If you want to stay on the bus, get competent and elevate your skillset to everything, not just cancer rehabilitation, but add that as another skill in your pocket.” “If you are a clinician or a therapist, it really is your ethical responsibility to take care of every patient that comes through the door, regardless of what their past medical history is. If you are not confident and competent in taking care of oncology patients, get that way. There’s a solution for you. Educate yourself, feel comfortable, feel confident, take care of your patient the way you should.” “For administrators and leadership teams, you really want to know that your team can take care of this population. If you do not have something in place that is ensuring that your clinicians and rehabilitation teams are really competent at taking care of these patients, you need to get that way, and you need to get that way pretty quick because the regulations and requirements from the very top levels are requiring that you do that.” “If your oncologist is not talking to you about function and what’s happening to you during your cancer journey and how that is going to be mitigated, or how you’re going to have a rehabilitation therapist of some sort as part of your team, ask for it. It needs to have this bottom-up push as well.” “Think big, be brave, and just go for it.” “Keep being a sponge. Keep learning. Don’t be afraid to try new things. When you’re starting to get burned out, try something else. Keep learning and keep growing, and eventually you’re going to find something that just wows you and really makes you change not only your career, but your personal growth as well.”   More about Kristin Kristin has been in clinical care and leadership roles within the Boston and Hartford healthcare systems for over 30 years. For over a decade she has focused on elevating her oncology specific practice with Klose coursework in lymphedema, oncology and breast cancer rehabilitation specialty courses through Julia Osborne and the American Physical Therapy Association (APTA); Academy of Oncologic Physical Therapy, and earned completion certificates in Chemotherapy/ Biotherapy Agents and Radiation Therapy from the Oncology Nursing Society. She is planning to sit for the 2021 Oncologic Certified Specialist Examination. Kristin has been a mentor, clinical coordinator, and educator at both the system and collegiate level. She continues to serve as an educator through her role as an instructor within Survivorship Solutions ’clinical education course: Core Competencies in Interdisciplinary Cancer Rehabilitation, contributing to guest podcasts on Breast Friends Cancer Support Radio, Mama Bear Cancer Support Radio Talk Show, and The OncoPT Podcast, contributing to Alene Nitzky’ s book “Navigating the C: A Nurse Charts the Course for Cancer Survivorship Care”, and as invited speaker at the International Breast Cancer and Wellness Summit, and the American Congress of Rehabilitation Medicine National Conference 2020. She actively supports and is involved in the oncology community as a member of the American Congress of Rehabilitation Medicine Integrative Cancer Rehabilitation Task Force, Connecticut Lymphedema Consortium, local and national chapters of the American Physical Therapy Association (APTA); APTA Academy of Oncologic Physical Therapy, Hospice and Palliative Care Special Interest Group, and serves on the board of the APTA Connecticut Oncology Special Interest Group as Program Coordinator. Kristin received her Bachelor of Science in Physical Therapy from Northeastern University. More About Jillian: Jillian is a licensed physical therapist with over 20 years of experience in patient care, clinic development, management, and consulting within the fields of oncology, orthopedics, pediatrics, ergonomics, and corporate health. She studied biochemistry and business management at the University of Texas at Austin, and received a Bachelor of Science degree in Healthcare Sciences and a Master's degree in Physical Therapy from the University of Texas Medical Branch in 2001. Much of Jillian's early career focused on orthopedic and pediatric physical therapy intervention, specializing in complex, limb-salvage rehabilitation programs, spinal dysfunction, and sports medicine. Later, she turned her attention to program development, clinic start-ups, and management within the corporate healthcare industry. For the past six years, she has consulted in the implementation and optimization of survivorship services and cancer rehabilitation programs within national healthcare organizations. Jillian maintains professional licensure in physical therapy and participates in continuing education programs and certifications within oncology and other specialties. She serves as a contributing and presenting team member for the American Congress of Rehabilitative Medicine (ACRM)'s Integrative Cancer Rehab Taskforce and is a member of both the Education Section and Oncology Section of the American Physical Therapy Association (APTA). She also participates as a member of the Hospice and Palliative Care Special Interest Group (SIG). Jillian regularly contributes to podcasts, journals, and other professional publications related to oncology, healthcare, and business, and she participates and contributes regularly within the entrepreneur and small-business community of the Chicago-land area, including SCORE mentorship and women-led business groups. In 2016, Kristin and Jillian founded Survivorship Solutions, LLC., an education and consultancy firm dedicated to supporting clinicians and healthcare organizations in implementing high-quality cancer rehabilitation and survivorship services. The company collaborates with national and global experts in oncology, survivorship, and rehabilitation to grow team safety and competencies in oncology knowledge and evidence-based care.     Suggested Keywords Physiotherapy, Learning, Cancer, Research, PT, Health, Therapy, Oncology, Survivorship, Healthcare, Education, Training,   Recommended viewing https://vimeo.com/485402119 https://survivorshipsolutions.com/p/core-competencies-in-interdisciplinary-cancer-rehabilitation-2-0   To learn more, follow Jillian and Kristin at: Website:          https://survivorshipsolutions.com Vimeo:             https://vimeo.com/survivorshipsolutions Facebook:       Survivorship Solutions Instagram:       @survivorshipsolutions Twitter:            @survivorshipsol                         @KCarrollPT                         @JSchmittPT LinkedIn:         Kristin Carroll                         Jillian Schmitt                         Survivorship Solutions LLC NetHealth Webinar:  Rehab Therapy Outpatient Services 101: How to Expand into the Home or Assisted Living Facility. Subscribe to Healthy, Wealthy & Smart: Website: https://podcast.healthywealthysmart.com Apple Podcasts:        https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/healthy-wealthy-smart/id532717264 Spotify:                       https://open.spotify.com/show/6ELmKwE4mSZXBB8TiQvp73 SoundCloud: https://soundcloud.com/healthywealthysmart Stitcher:  https://www.stitcher.com/show/healthy-wealthy-smart iHeart Radio: https://www.iheart.com/podcast/263-healthy-wealthy-smart-27628927   Read the Full Transcript: Speaker 1 (00:00): Hey, Kristin and Jillian, welcome to the podcast. I'm so happy to have you guys on Speaker 2 (00:07): Or happy to be here. Speaker 3 (00:09): Thank you so much for having us on today. Speaker 1 (00:11): So today we're going to talk about cancer, survivorship. This is something that I've spoken to, one of your colleagues, Dr. Nicole Stout with, but before we get talking about that, what I would love to know is how the two of you came together to create survivorship solutions, the how, and the why behind it. Speaker 2 (00:31): So, Kristen and I knew each other before we started the company together for a couple of years, we, we previously worked for another organization and had similar roles and that was to implement cancer rehabilitation, service lines within healthcare systems. And Kristen and I really connected during that time. And we really enjoyed working with each other. We valued a lot of the same things. And so once we left that situation or once that situation of our, our, you know, once that's working together no longer happened for that particular company, we decided that we were great together and that we would we needed to continue the work. And so we started survivorship solutions together Speaker 3 (01:21): And Julia and I are both physical therapists and I have a special, I've been working with oncology patients for over 12 years. And even though we're both PTs, we both kind of had different soap boxes and what we were so passionate about. And Jillian has a love and just a savvy for business and growth. And you know, I just love to educate and things like that. So together, you know, just our, our strengths and our passions just forged us forward to create this, this company to, to continue to help healthcare organizations, but also individual commissions that, that really just needed to get more information on how to take care of people with cancer. Speaker 1 (01:59): Yeah. And that was my next question is where, where was the gap that, what was the gap that you guys saw that you were like, Hey, if we can put our heads together and create this, we're really going to help fill that gap? Speaker 2 (02:11): Right. Well, you know, for me personally, it was I was not a cancer rehabilitation therapist for most of my, my clinical career. I was in orthopedics and I th the opportunity to begin working in cancer rehabilitation actually came about it was pretty unexpected. I received a phone call from a very good friend of mine and also therapists I would school with. And I've been in practice for 15 years and she said, you know, I think that this would be a really good opportunity for you, you know, you, you've married sort of this business. And I, because I had opened clinics and I had done a lot of the, the business part of it. And but I really loved clinical practice. And I also had a very personal situation occurring in my life, or one of my loved ones was experiencing the cancer journey and really having a lot of issues and a lot of problems that I was really familiar with. But I, you know, like weakness and numbness and things like the things that physical symptoms, but I was just kind of watching through this lens and like, all right, well, that's like what I do every day, but why isn't somebody helping him? So it was all these three things that kind of came together and took me out of my orthopedic world pretty quickly and thrust me into the cancer rehabilitation world, which I had thought, I mean, admittedly been very naive of until that happened. Speaker 3 (03:43): Yeah. And I was working in an outpatient center and had surgeons come to ask if I would become competent to learn how to take care of breast cancer patients. Cause they were breast cancer surgeons. So I went to Olympia DEMA course and I learned all about lymphedema. And then I came back and I saw a breast cancer patient and I was all excited to use my new education that I just learned and she didn't have lymphedema, but I was like, Oh my God, what do I do with her? I mean, I learned all about lymphedema isn't that cancer rehab isn't. And so Julie and I learned quickly that in order to really become competent, to take care of people with cancer, you have to travel around the country at your conferences and online and, and do all sorts of things to get there. But a lot of it was just disease specific, like just breast cancer. So how do you learn how to take care of everybody that has all different kinds of cancers and all the different problems? So we felt that it really was our ethical responsibility as we were working with healthcare organizations to make sure that if we were going to implement a program, we had to make sure the team really was confident and competent to do that. So how we created education to go along with that implementation. Speaker 1 (04:54): Yeah. Excellent. And, and I will say that people who, like, I know people who've been diagnosed with cancer and as of yet only like two of them have gone to physical therapy. One of which was because I said, you have to go to physical therapy, she had a double mastectomy. And I said, tell your doctor that you want to go to PT afterwards. And she was like, but the doctor gave me this list of exercises. And I said, no, no, no, no, no. Tell your doctor, you want to go to see a physical therapist after this and, and sh afterwards she was like, yeah, I I definitely needed a PT. And so I think the issue here, and we'll get into that, we'll get into this conversation in a little bit, but you know, the issue here is that cancer is not just one type of cancer. Cancer is not just a, what you're seeing on the outside, but there are physical changes on the inside as well. And that's where being a knowledgeable physical therapist on, on the rehab of people diagnosed with cancer is so important, but let's talk about cancer in particular. So cancer itself can affect anyone true or false. That's absolutely right. Yeah, definitely. And so let's talk a little bit about the, this sort of prevalence of cancer and what that means for us right now, Speaker 3 (06:31): Almost 17 million cancer survivors in the country. And so that is all different ages, you know, doesn't matter which sex, all different kinds of cancers, definitely cancer is not discriminant. And so you talk about the gap in care. And Andrew Chevelle is, is kind of huge in our cancer rehab world and does research. And you know, she talks about the 83% of general cancer survivors have problems that really require rehabilitation and take it to the other end where women sorry, excuse me, general cancer metastatic or stage four, they have up to 92% of problems. So obviously somebody that has a chronic cancer condition is going to have more and more problems because they are receiving more and more treatments. And so the percentage of people that actually get rehabilitation is only about 30% according to, to her study. So that's, you know, that's a huge gap in care wizards. Speaker 3 (07:25): It's 83% of general cancer survivors or the 92% of our metastatic breast cancer patients. That's a huge gap with 30%. So when we're looking at that, if you're young and you're diagnosed with cancer and you have treatment, you're going to grow up to have perhaps problems, you know, as you get older. And so, you know, these people are inside our clinics already. And sometimes it's a little tiny past medical history. That's checked, you know, on their, on their form and we see cancer, but yet we're a little bit afraid sometimes to ask a little bit about what that is. And, and even I do that when I'm in a private room with my cancer patients that I'm treating them, I have no problem talking about what they went through, but on an open clinic. And I see that little word cancer, sometimes I, I will say, Oh, well, you had cancer. What kind did you have? And you know, but we really have to have these conversations. What kind of cancer did you have? What kind of treatment did you have because it really can impact the treatment that you are providing your patient, whether they're a pediatric patient, you know, an inpatient and outpatient adult really doesn't matter what the setting is. It really could depend on what your care plan is going to be. Speaker 1 (08:41): And Karen, you, you had mentioned that you said you asked, can anybody get cancer and can this affect everybody? And absolutely. And I think what's, what's really interesting is that healthcare professionals, you, myself Speaker 2 (08:56): Included, we don't necessarily automatically think about like the, the functional consequences of having cancer, even though we see it. We're so we have this new normal instilled in us that we sort of expect cancer patients to not have normal function or not be doing well. And it just really to be part of what the expectation is once you get that diagnosis. And even me, even somebody that has worked in therapy for a long time and having a person very close to me, experiencing physical symptoms, I still, it was almost like a, it was just sort of like an out of, Oh, you know, like I didn't really make sense to me why he wasn't getting it, but it wasn't sort of this, well, this is a person that needs to have therapy. That connection wasn't, wasn't quite there yet. And I think that that's true for a lot of clinicians. Speaker 2 (09:49): They say, well, we, we don't see cancer patients, but but w w what Christina likes to say, well, yes, you actually, you have, and you do you see them probably every day on your schedule, there's such a high percentage of people that cancer at this point, that if you're seeing any population in ortho population or a neuro population or whatever in your clinic, you have seen patients that have either current or a previous diagnosis of cancer. And so you are, these patients are coming into our clinics already, and people are just not really making that connection. Speaker 1 (10:23): Yeah. I remember when I spoke to Nicole, she said, one thing that all physical therapists have to keep in mind is a hundred percent of physical therapists in, at some point in their physical therapy career will see someone with Speaker 2 (10:36): Absolutely, absolutely. Probably this week. Yeah. And like, you know, it's, it's not, it's not when, or, or it's, I mean, like it's very, very soon because patients also don't necessarily think about the fact that they have a cancer diagnosis and it's something that they really need to kind of put, put front and center when they are going to rehab. So maybe they've had a knee replacement or they've had some other traditional rehabilitation problem, like a BA like back pain or whatever they go to PT for. And they had that pesky, you know, cancer diagnosis 10 years ago that colorectal cancer, but they, they got it and they got the third, but so they don't really, but you know what, those things that happened 10 years ago with that diagnosis and the medications that that patient had and the treatments that that patient had are actually going to impact the way that they heal in, in physical therapy. And so I think the patient doesn't understand the significance of it. And then the clinician doesn't really understand the significance of it. And it makes a huge impact in how well that patient is gonna, you know, do and how, and in the course of their therapy, it really should kind of direct the course of their therapy and and predict how well they're going to be able to, you know, certain, certain things that should be in therapy and certain things that should really not be done in therapy should be based on that. Speaker 1 (11:57): And something that as you're saying, all of this, that kind of struck me is that in physical therapy, you know, we are expected to have the competency to treat people with a total knee replacement, low back pain post-stroke Ms. But you guys have traveled around the country. You've spoken to many physical therapists, is that clinical competency in cancer rehab there amongst the physical therapy profession. And this is a silly question, but is it essential? Speaker 3 (12:35): I do. I think it was definitely not there. I mean, there are therapists that are very skilled at providing lymphedema treatments, and there are therapists that are very skilled in targeting certain kinds of breast cancer. But I think one of the things that we think, what I think about is that the things that people going through cancer treatment, it's kind of like an anticipated decline, right? Like we kind of know that they're going to feel like crap when they're going through chemotherapy. And I think that maybe, and I had this assumption that once their chemotherapy is over, they're going to be fine. And I think a lot of the providers think that as well, we kind of know that they're not going to do well during treatment, but I don't think that a lot of people know is that they don't do well even after treatment and that six months and years later, they have these effects. Speaker 3 (13:24): And because there are one in eight women that get breast cancer, and there are so many men that get prostate and other lung cancers are, are breast cancer women, and are prostate men have to take medications sometimes for five and 10 years, that affects their musculoskeletal system that affects every ortho therapist. If they're treating these people that are in their clinics. So there may be a general awareness, but I think there is kind of pick and choose, like you make it a lung cancer patients that you're treating for weakness. You don't have to treat weakness, you don't to treat balance issues, but you may not really understand what the chemo regimen did to the patient, why they're having those. So I think explain the why around it helps to decrease the fear that some therapists have of treating, because I sure was afraid when I saw my frail bald patients walking in, I was really afraid I was going to hurt them. And I didn't feel safe to take care of them because I had one month of DEMA course, and I wasn't. So we kind of wing it, right. Because there's not really many resources out there. Right, right. Speaker 2 (14:36): Back into my schoolwork and looked and to see what oncology criteria like curriculum that we had gone through when I was a student. And yeah, I mean, it was so minimal. It was less than a week was one core, like within one class that wasn't oncology focused. It was, I mean, the amount of information that clinicians were getting in school and professional programs was very, very minimal. And of course that's more than 20 years ago when I was in school. But even now even now I would say that there was a huge percentage of of clinicians that take our course who are new grads. They just got out of school. So we know, and we've communicated with them. Talk to them. This is not in their curriculum. They are not learning this in school. Otherwise they would not be seeking out some of this information that they know is really important anyway. And that's physical therapists, occupational therapists, anybody that's in allied health or are seeing patients really needs that they need to have this foundational, basic knowledge that makes them safe and makes them competent to care for these patients. And so it is a little, I I'm sure the education, maybe at some point we'll catch up, but it hasn't yet. Speaker 1 (15:56): Yeah. And, and I'm sure it also depends on what's on the MPTE, but that's a whole other thing and let's, we won't get into that, but we know that certainly exists when it comes to educational curriculum in schools. Yes. At any rate I digress. Let's talk about, let's talk about when should rehab physical therapy, occupational therapy start. So someone is diagnosed with cancer. When do they start their rehab? Speaker 3 (16:27): The rehabilitation starts at diagnosis and that's when the American cancer society. And so many of our, our industry regulators recommend that it started and it start from diagnosis all the way from end of life or end of care. And, you know, we compare this to kind of our other service lines, but, you know, somebody is having a knee replacement they're coming in for prehab, right. They're coming in for education, they're coming in for strengthening before they do that. And it's, it's no different for a patient with cancer. They need to be armed with what they are going to go through. Not only the education to help decrease their fear, but also the problems that they are going to incur, understanding that we have the skillset and the tools to be able to support them throughout that journey. And I think the other thing that rehab teams don't realize is that general clinicians that don't have specialties really can treat the scope of most of the impairments that people have. Just like we all can you know, balance and numbness and tingling and strength issues and fatigue, and just, you know, the list goes on and on, but if you have a pelvic health issue or if you have lymphedema, then we triaged to our, to our specialists Speaker 2 (17:35): And, and best practice really dictates that when you're going to begin any type of a treatment or any type of incur, any type of or undergo any type of surgery or anything like that, it's really to establish a baseline. And in cancer, there's really, it's, it's very important to establish a baseline because we know pretty, pretty well that cancer treatments are going to cause problems. They're going to exacerbate existing problems. And so if we can add diagnosis, capture what that baseline is for that patient and monitor and survey that patient and make sure that that patient is not there, that their existing, their preconditions or existing deficits or impairments are not getting worse or that new ones are not popping up. That really is best practice because we know that if we can see something pop up, you know, and catch it immediately, it's going to be a lot easier to take care of and to recover from or to prevent even then, if it's something that we don't, you know, that we don't look for until after treatment is over, maybe, you know, the patient is having a lot of functional problems that are really obvious. Speaker 2 (18:50): If you just wait until then it's going to be a lot harder to intervene and it's going to, I mean, and this is it's gonna be a lot more expensive. I mean, something that may take just an education and maybe one visit and rehabilitation from the very onset and the very beginning even something, you know, just as you're going to have this, you're going to have a lumpectomy you're going to guard you. You know, let's make sure that when this happens, you're going to continue to do range of motion within a certain, you know, limitation, but that the patient knows that that can later prevent like three months of a frozen shoulder. Right? I mean, like we know that this, these things happen all the time and it's easy to just kind of get in there from the beginning. So best practice is, is at the very beginning at diagnosis, patients should definitely be at least screened for impairments and informed that rehabilitation is part of their medical care. They should expect it, their patient should walk in knowing that rehabilitation is part of their medical team. Yeah, absolutely. Speaker 3 (19:52): And this is, and this is something that Nicole Stout talks a lot about in her research has called the process perspective surveillance model. And that is, you know, screening patients before each intervention. So we know kind of what we call each medical touch point. So whether they're having surgery or chemotherapy or radiation really being screened before each of those interventions. So like Jillian said, we can kind of pick up on those impairments when they're acute in nature, that's really important. Speaker 1 (20:19): And so let's talk about cancer rehabilitation education. I think we've already established that physical therapists do not get an adequate amount of cancer rehabilitation education in school, and you may not get it on the job either, depending on where you work. So couple that with millions and millions of people getting diagnosed with cancer every year rehab should start at the point of diagnosis. So let's talk about the education around it, because if that is the case, and now it is recommended rehab start at the time of diagnosis. And there are tons of PTs in this country and not many know how to deal with this. How do we educate physical therapists in a robust manner so they can help with these patients? Speaker 2 (21:15): Well, I think that things are kind of catching up here. It's been established that cancer rehabilitation is important and it needs to be part of cancer patients cancer care. And we have national regulatory agencies and different sort of top level drivers that are encouraging and really requiring organizations to provide cancer rehabilitation. So we have a lot of these companies that are starting to recognize, all right, are people that are in house already need to be doing this. And then from the clinician's perspective. And, and I can say this as a, as a physical therapist, if, if my boss had come to me in my outpatient clinic and said, okay, we're going to have a bunch of oncology patients come in the doors now. Because there's these guidelines and we're going to see this influx of patients and you guys are gonna be treating these patients. Speaker 2 (22:15): I would have been like, okay, like I would have been really nervous about it. And so we, we still sort of were getting that response as organizations are starting to implement some of these policies that are requiring that their organizations provide these services. So we're also getting this sort of searching from these clinicians, like, all right, I'm going to see cancer patients. And when I go online, I see like a billion, different CU courses for different types of, I mean, I can be different specialists in this or a specialist in that, or I can take this or I can take that. What I really want to know is how can I be safe to see these patients coming through the door. I don't, but maybe cancer is not there. And you know, what, what they're interested in, they don't want to specialize in it. Speaker 2 (23:03): That's fine. And so they don't want to spend thousands of dollars on specialties and weekends, but they do want to be safe and they want to know. And so Chris and I kind of came at it from that perspective, like, all right, we're gonna, we're gonna say, we're going to get more referrals in your clinics because of these guidelines, because it's the right thing to do because research says that cancer patients need it. But what's really important to us is that your clinicians feel competent. They feel safe. How can we create the education that your, your clinicians are gonna feel like they can have anybody land on their schedule and that's going to be fine because that's going to make them feel comfortable. And what that's going to do is going to make their bosses feel comfortable there. The leadership is going to know that their entire Rhea team has a competency and anybody can kind of come through there and that their service is going to be very similar from facility and location location. Speaker 2 (23:48): So we, that's kind of where we started with. We weren't, we didn't, we didn't want to make a course that was going to make somebody a specialist. Those are out there and they're awesome. And we work with all those people that make those courses. So we know they're awesome. We wanted to create something that was respectful of somebody's time and their money, and, and really want to just pull the most excellent parts of all those specialties into one spot so that a therapist could go through it and be pretty confident in their leadership can be pretty confident that they were that they were gonna be able to take care of these patients as they come through the doors. Speaker 3 (24:23): Yeah, Kristen, and then I, I was live and then I was living in the cancer rehabilitation world. So I knew a lot of the experts and the leaders in the field from just attending their courses and conferences like Nicole, Nicole Stout, and Julia Osborne. And, you know, just all of these amazing people that really aligned with the same mission and vision that Jillian and I both had to spread this education. And, but what was missing was a comprehensive online platform. And, you know, I I'm sitting for the specialty exam in February, but I'm an expert in certain things, but I certainly not the expert on everything. And so Joanie and I said, you know, when we're learning, we want to learn from our role models, right? Our peers and our colleagues who respect in the field. So we went out and we asked them, you know, will you help us create this education? Speaker 3 (25:18): And they all said, absolutely it's really important. And why it's important is because we have to get it in the hands of people quickly. I, it took me 12 years to kind of get all this information. We don't have that kind of time because we have almost 17 million people that need this care right now. And these patients are in the clinics and, and they need it. You know, they're, they're just people that want to do marathons and, you know, raise their children and go to school and do all the things that everybody else does. So how do we get it into the hands of people? So we went out and they created this, this education, and then we went and got it approved recently for continuing education credits. So it really is an amazing compilation of education that spreads a blanket over all different kinds of cancer, disease types and all the impairments. But it isn't just for somebody that wants to be competent and confident. Cause I went through it myself and I learned a lot of information and I've been doing this for over 12 years. So it really is also for clinicians that are interested in cancer rehabilitation that work in cancer rehabilitation, but are also experts because they will learn about a lot of things that there are no courses for like pharmacology. There are no courses for pharmacology, right. They're out there right now for to learn from Speaker 2 (26:39): It's really for the whole team. Yeah. And so when, so let's Speaker 1 (26:44): As a physical therapist I go through, through this chorus, I'm confident, I'm competent. And is it like, okay, thanks. I guess I'm, I'm, I'm good now. I don't need anything else. So what happens after this sort of ed, you have this experience with you guys and you're, you know, relatively confident and competent is, is that where the learning ends? Speaker 2 (27:12): No, I, I, I really love that you asked that question actually, because this is what I, this is my soap box. You know, we all, all of our presenters for our course, they all have their soap boxes. They're all specialists about what they think is the most important. That's why our education is awesome. We, you know, we went to the specialist, we said, give us 30 minutes, you know, or, or whatever that you think is the most important part of your specialty that you think all general people should know, and then they bring it in and that's, what's in the core. So you kind of get the best of everything and what the specialist actually think the general therapists really need to know about certain things. But we did recognize absolutely that once you have, this is acumen or you, this information about, you know, cancer rehabilitation and you have got to be able to communicate with others that have the same information that, that are there in the same world. Speaker 2 (28:02): Because even though there are going to be a lot of patients that are starting to come in in the future right now, it's a little bit of a small world. It's kind of a, a small world in regards to who is in cancer rehabilitation. And we know this because we go to the conferences and we see the people that come to the different lectures and the presenters. And we know that this is kind of a small world because we see that a lot of the same people over and over again. And, and so the education is really important, obviously for Kristin and I, we have it updated constantly by the presenters. Each one of them is responsible for their segment so that we know if legislation changes, if there's evidence that comes out, something happens where their presentation or their part of our education needs to be updated. Speaker 2 (28:42): That's going to happen in pretty, pretty much in real time. But how do we answer our students' questions later? How do we grow their interest or their confidence beyond just an online course and the way that Chris and I have been doing that, as you know, we've worked with clients and we've sort of built this community within our own clients, that they reach out to each other all the time and communicate in that way. They know they've got other people that are doing the same thing, implementing the same types of interventions or screenings or things like education. And so they can connect with each other. And that's great for those clients. But we've really recognized that there is there is a need for a community where people could really discuss their patients, discuss their experiences, discuss their education and grow from there. Speaker 2 (29:32): And so that's actually something that we're working on right now really hard. And we, we already, you know, it's rolled out for our clients right now. So it's just a matter of being able to make it more of a public forum where people can, they they've got this, they've had the education. So they kind of were speaking the same language, at least at a bare minimum. And then they can discuss and communicate. And what's nice about it is that we've got all of our partners who have created our course, like Nicole Stout and Mary Lou Valentino. And some of these others who are very reputable, well-known that created part of our course for us. And they're all in there like, heck yeah, we're going to be part of this conversation. We want to be part of this community. And so our vision of course, is that we can have discussion groups and different opportunities where people can get their questions answered about either about the education or applying that application, that education to real life scenarios. How can they get that feedback and that comradery that they're going to need to feel even more confident in this industry. That's why we have, that's why we have great relationships is that they all want to do this. They all know this community is important and it's not a big ask. It's not like, Hey, can you talk to a bunch of therapists that really think this is important? They're I mean, they're, they're all in it. They're all in. So Speaker 3 (30:51): Being an Island is, is kind of scary. And like you said, you take that education and then you go back into your clinic or your place. And for people that are working in rural communities, they may be the only person that is taking this education. And we're all really busy people in our work lives and our home lives. And I think one of the hardest things for me as a clinician and a business owner is what do I need to know right now? You know, there's so much research that comes out. And so that's how we also wanted to support with, with workshops. And you know, what is the need to know research that you need to know that's coming out today? You know, you can't afford to fly all over the country and go to all these conferences. Well, guess what, we've tidbit from all the conferences that now that's out there, that's pertinent to you so that you understand what's going on out there in the world without having to do that. Speaker 3 (31:43): And so it's you know, it has meant so much to Gillian and I to work with all of the partners that we have. All of the organizations that we work with are so passionate. We've met clinicians that are passionate. I've never met anyone that has not been exposed to cancer in some way, whether it's personally a friend, family, somebody, so everyone is connected by it. Nobody doesn't want to take care of somebody that's going through this. So it's really, how do we all kind of work together to support each other? That if you have questions kind of there in a non-threatening way. Certainly, you know, when Julia and I first met Nicole Stout, we were, you know, at, at, in section meeting and she was standing over there and, and, you know, Julie was like, I'm going to go over there and meet her. I'm like, no, no, it's Nicole Stone. You know? And I was so intimidated by her and because she was a big wig. Well, yeah, but when you meet her, you go, you meet her and you learn that she has the same passion and mission and commitment to people that you do. And, and she's so accepting and welcoming that, that really went away. And I felt like we had to really offer that to everybody else so that they could acknowledge that these people are, are very willing and receptive to helping. Speaker 1 (32:58): Yeah. Yeah. She's fabulous. Plus, I mean the shoe collection, I mean, I mean, can we just be envious of her shoe collection? And so, but yeah, she's, she's fabulous and what she does for the, for the physical therapy world oncology in particular. But I think the PT world as a whole is, is huge. As a student, she might, people might be intimidated by, by that. I mean, we were, but I think that that's what we're trying to do is as we're breaking down those, those barriers for our students, and we're saying, Hey, look, you know what your course is awesome as taught by an awesome person. And here's an awesome person that you can ask that question too. Yeah. Yeah. What a wonderful opportunity to give to your students to, to have to have those collaborations and those relationships, which in, in my, in my eyes, relationships are everything they're key. And, and that's the thing for me that keeps pushing this profession forward. As we wrap things up, I'm going to ask each of you. So what would be your big takeaway that you want the listeners to come away with from the talk today? Speaker 3 (34:09): I think one of the biggest things that I learned was actually back at CSM. And somebody said that as physical therapists, we are medical coordinators of care and is our ethical responsibility to really be able to take care of everybody that comes into our care. And he said, you know, what, if you're not competent to treat everybody get off the bus because you're bringing our profession down. You know, we have autonomy. Now we can have people coming into our clinics without physician referrals. So we have to know this many, many PTs can order x-rays and things like that. So my take home message is if you want to stay on the bus, get competent and elevate your skillset to everything, not just cancer rehabilitation, but add that as yet another skill in your pocket so that when that patient comes in, you can either treat them or you can triage them. A stroke patient comes into my clinic. I can evaluate them and educate them, but I might triage them somewhere else so that they get more targeted care. So that's, you know, I just want everybody to get on the bus. Yeah. Speaker 1 (35:20): Awesome. Jillian. Well I think my takeaway that I would provide it really depends on the audience on who is listening. So if you are a clinician or a therapist like Kristen, it really is Speaker 2 (35:38): Your ethical responsibility to take care of every therapy. Every patient that comes through the door, regardless of what their past medical history is you should be able to provide the highest level of care for that patient and as therapists. And we all know you have the heart of a therapist, you want to do the best for your patients. So if you are not confident and competent in taking care of oncology patients, my takeaway to you is get that way. There's a solution for you, educate yourself, feel comfortable, feel confident. You take care of your patients, where you said there's a solution for you. I'm an action girl, but my takeaway for administrators and for leadership teams of your organizations is you really want to know that your team can take care of this population. And when you do something, when you do something and you want to be sure that your team is competent, you put forth these standards and people have to meet these standards. Speaker 2 (36:31): And so my, my takeaway for then is that if you do not have something in place that is ensuring that your, your clinicians, that your rehabilitation teams are really competent in taking care of these patients you need to get that way and you need to get that way pretty quick because the regulations and the the requirements that are coming down from the very top levels nationally are requiring that you do that. So it's not just an ethical thing on the clinician side. It really, and, and also this is a new patient population or not, not a new patient population, but this is a patient population that is going to expand. We're going to see a lot more on ecology patients. And so that is an opportunity to reach out to sort of almost a new I don't want to call it a market cause I don't like to call people a market, but it is, it's a new, it's a new market for, for those administrators and most leaders. Speaker 2 (37:28): And then the takeaway, of course, if we have patients listening or, or relative caregivers coast survivors is what we call people that are in the lives of, of a person with a diagnosis of cancer. Ask for it. My takeaway is that this is part of your medical care. You should be, if you're not, if you're, if you're on ecologists, your provider is not talking to you about function and what's happening to you during your cancer journey and how that is going to be mitigated or how you're going to have a rehabilitation therapist of support as part of your team. If somebody has not said that to you yet ask for it because it needs to have this bottom up push as well. And it seems so logical when you talk about it. But again, you know, you gotta look, you gotta understand your audience and who are you talking to? What language are you speaking? Yeah. Speaker 1 (38:16): Excellent. All right. So before we get to where everyone can find you, I have last question, it's the question I ask everyone. And that is knowing where you are now in your life and in your career. What advice would you give to yourself as a new grad? Speaker 2 (38:33): I would tell my younger self or anybody that is kind of starting out in their career and they know they're doing what they love to think big, think big and be brave and just go, just go for it. Speaker 1 (38:48): Excellent. Kristen, Speaker 3 (38:50): I think that I would tell my younger self to just keep being a sponge, keep learning. Don't be afraid to try new things, you know, when you're starting to get burned out, try something else, which is what I did. I kind of kept jumping around and I found I was passionate about each of those things and just keep learning and keep growing. And eventually you're going to find something that really wows you and really makes you change not only your career, but your, you know, your personal growth as, as well. Speaker 1 (39:23): Excellent. Very good advice all around. So now where can people find you? Where can they find the course? What's the name of the course? Give me all the details. Speaker 2 (39:31): Great. but you can find us@survivorshipsolutions.com. That's our website and our courses on our homepage. So they can just click, click on the link, they'll see the education and they'll see some of the other, you know, consulting services and things like that that we also provide. But and certainly there's contact page. They can reach out to us. We're happy to, to have conversation with anybody. Speaker 1 (39:59): Perfect. And what about social media? Where can people find you follow you, et cetera? Speaker 3 (40:03): We are all over social media. We're on LinkedIn. We're on Twitter, on Instagram and I forgetting what's the other one, Facebook both personally and professionally where we're both on there. So maybe you can find us there. Speaker 1 (40:17): What are your handles? Speaker 3 (40:19): Our business handle is survivorship solutions for LinkedIn and for Twitter. It's survivorship Sol. Speaker 1 (40:26): Perfect. Excellent. And we will have the links to all of this at the show notes for this episode at podcast on healthy, wealthy, smart.com. So if you want to get more information on the course, follow them on social media become if you're a physical therapist out there listening, and you want to become competent and safe to treat patients, cancer patients, which we now know, we all will at some point then definitely check them out. So Kristin and Jillian, thank you so much for coming on. I appreciate your time. Speaker 2 (41:03): Thanks so much for having us. It's been our pleasure. Speaker 3 (41:06): Thanks, Cara. It's been fun. Thanks so much. Speaker 1 (41:08): And everyone, thanks so much for listening. Have a great couple of days and stay healthy, wealthy and smart.  

Episode Summary In this episode physical therapist, biomechanist, and researcher,Dr. Amy Arundale talks about how to decrease the risk of ACL injury.  Amelia (Amy) Arundale, PT, PhD, DPT, SCS is a physical therapist and researcher.  Amy is transitioning to a new role as a physical therapist at Red Bull’s Athlete Performance Center in Thalgua, Austria. Today, Amy tells us about injury-prevention programs, communicating with different stakeholders, and helping empower athletes through education. We also get to hear about her recent publication on Basketball, Sports medicine, and rehabilitation. How does motor-learning, creative thinking, and problem-solving relate to ACL injuries? Amy tells us about implementation and compliance with injury-prevention programs, internal versus external cues as they relate to injury prevention, and the gaps in the research, all on today’s episode of The Healthy, Wealthy & Smart Podcast.   Key Takeaways “We’ve got great information. We know these programs can work, but for them to work, you have to do them.” “You may be a physio, and you may have this injury-prevention knowledge, but you don’t have to be there for this to happen. It’s just as effective for you to run this program as it is for a coach or a parent to run it.” “It’s exciting to see where this next generation is going to be because I think we’re going to have some athletes that are more empowered to know more about their body.” “We need to be better at reporting our biases, looking at our subject populations, and funding and encouraging studies outside of ‘the global North.’” Giving yourself the space and kindness to recognise that you don’t know everything and make it a point to learn more is good therapy.   More about Amy:  Amelia (Amy) Arundale, PT, PhD, DPT, SCS is a physical therapist and researcher. Originally from Fairbanks, Alaska, she received her Bachelor’s Degree with honors from Haverford College. Gaining both soccer playing and coaching experience throughout college, she spent a year as the William Penn Fellow and Head of Women’s Football (soccer) at the Chigwell School, in London. Amy completed her DPT at Duke University and throughout gained experience working at multiple soccer clubs in the US and Norway. Amy applied this experience working at Balance Physical Therapy providing physical therapy for the Capitol Area Soccer Club (now North Carolina F.C. Youth) and the U23 Carolina Railhawks. In 2013, Amy moved to Newark, Delaware to pursue a PhD under Dr. Lynn Snyder-Mackler. Amy’s dissertation examined primary and secondary ACL injury prevention as well as career length and return to performance in soccer players. After a short post-doc in Linköping, Sweden in 2017, Amy joined the Brooklyn Nets as a physical therapist and biomechanist as well as The Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai Health System as a visiting scientist. Currently, Amy is transitioning to a new role as a physical therapist at Red Bull’s Athlete Performance Center in Thalgua, Austria. Outside of work, Amy plays Australian Rules Football for both the New York Magpies and US National Team.  Amy has also been involved in the APTA and AASPT, including serving as Director of the APTA’s Student Assembly, a member of the APTA’s Leadership Development Committee, chair of the AASPT’s Membership Committee, and currently as a member of the AASPT Diversity and Inclusion Committee.   Suggested Keywords ACL, Injuries, Recovery, Injury-Prevention, Learning, Sports, Physiotherapy, Research, PT, Rehabilitation, Health, Therapy,   Recommended reading https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/54/21/1245     To learn more, follow Amy at: Instagram:       @squeakyedgar LinkedIn:         Amelia (Amy) Arudale Twitter:            @soccerPT11   Subscribe to Healthy, Wealthy & Smart: Website:  https://podcast.healthywealthysmart.com Apple Podcasts:      https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/healthy-wealthy-smart/id532717264 Spotify:                        https://open.spotify.com/show/6ELmKwE4mSZXBB8TiQvp73 SoundCloud: https://soundcloud.com/healthywealthysmart Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/show/healthy-wealthy-smart iHeart Radio: https://www.iheart.com/podcast/263-healthy-wealthy-smart-27628927   Read the Full Transcript Here:    Speaker 1 (00:07): Welcome to the healthy, wealthy, and smart podcast. Each week we interview the best and brightest in physical therapy, wellness, and entrepreneurship. We give you cutting edge information. You need to live your best life. Healthy, wealthy, and smart. The information in this podcast is for entertainment purposes only and should not be used as personalized medical advice. And now here's your host, Dr. Karen Litzy. Speaker 2 (00:38): Hey everybody. Welcome back to the podcast. I am your host. Karen Lindsay, and today's episode is brought to you by net health net health therapy for private practices, a cloud-based all in one EMR solution for managing your practice. That's right. One piece of software that handles all of your scheduling documentation, billing and reporting needs. Plus a lot more in one super easy to use package. Right now, Neta health is offering a special deal for healthy, wealthy, and smart listeners. Complete a demo with the net health team and get $100 towards lunch for your staff. Visit net health.com/ [inaudible] to get started and get access to free resources for PTs like eBooks on demand, webinars, and business tools. Once again, that's net health.com/l I T Z Y my last name very, very easy now onto today's episode. So what we're doing with the podcast this month, and really every month going forward is we're going to have several guests that are all going to talk about one topic in various forums. Speaker 2 (01:40): This month, our topic is ACL injury and rehabilitation. And my first guest is not only an incredible physical therapist, a great researcher, but also a great friend of mine. That is Dr. Amelia, Aaron Dale, or Amy Arundale. So Amy is a physical therapist and researcher originally from Fairbanks, Alaska. She received her bachelor's degree with honors, from Haverford college, gaining both soccer, playing and coaching experience throughout college. She spent a year as the William Penn fellow and head of women's football at the Chigwell school in London. Amy completed her DPT at Duke university and throughout gained experience working at multiple soccer clubs in the U S and Norway. Amy applied this experience working at balanced physical therapy, providing physical therapy for the capital area soccer club. Now North Carolina FC youth, and the U 23 Carolina rail Hawks. In 2013, Amy moved to Newark Delaware to pursue a PhD under Dr. Speaker 2 (02:40): Lynn Snyder, Mackler Amy's dissertation examined primary and secondary ACL injury prevention, as well as career link and returned to performance in soccer players. After a short postdoc in Linkoping Sweden in 2017, Amy joined the Brooklyn nets as a physical therapist, the biomechanics as, as the Icahn school of medicine at Mount Sinai health system, as a visiting scientist, currently, Amy is transitioning to a new role as a physical therapist at red bull's athletic performance center in Austria, outside of work, Amy plays Australian rules football for both the New York magpies and us national team. She has also been involved in the AP TA in the AA S P T, which is the American Academy of sports physical therapy, including serving as director of AP TA student assembly, a member of the AP TA's leadership development committee, chair of the AASP membership committee, and currently as a member of the AASP T diversity and inclusion committee. Speaker 2 (03:37): So what do we talk about today? All about ACL's right. So we talk about injury prevention and risk mitigation programs, how they work, what the pros and cons are how collaboration is so necessary amongst all stakeholders and why exciting new research that includes motor learning principles, creative thinking, and problem solving, and are there gaps in the literature and what can we, as clinicians and as researchers do about those gaps in the research. Now, the other thing Amy has so generously done for our listeners is she is going to give away one copy of basketball, sports medicine in science. This is a book that she was involved in as an editor, and it is over 1000 pages. The book is massive, it's huge. And she's going to give a copy away to one lucky listener. So how do you win that copy? All you have to do is go to my Instagram page. My handle is at Karen Lindsey, and you will find out how to win a copy of basketball, sports, medicine, and science. Again, that's go to my Instagram page at Karen Lindsey, and we will give this book away to one lucky listener at the end of the month of February. So you have the whole month to sign up for this. So a huge thanks to Amy and everyone enjoyed today's episode. Speaker 3 (05:04): Hey, everybody, welcome back to the podcast. So this month we're going to be examining ACL injuries and ACL rehab. And my first guest this month to help take us through the ACL Mays is Dr. Amy Arundale. So Amy, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much. We're starting up at the beginning of the year with the A's with it. I didn't even think about that. Yes. But then next month we go right to running and just skip everything else in between. That's fine. Excellent. So Amy, before we get into sort of the meat of the episode, what I would love for you to do is tell the listeners a little bit more about some of your more current research projects, things like that. So I will hand it over to you. Sure. So I'm just finishing Speaker 4 (05:58): Up as a physical therapist and biomechanics at the Brooklyn nets. So I've been working clinically with them and then doing a little bit of kind of in-house research as well. And then on the side have been working on a few different projects. The biggest one right now is starting the revisions for the knee and ACL injury prevention me Andrew prevention, clinical practice guidelines. So those were originally published in [inaudible] in 2018 and clinical practice guidelines get revised every three years. So 2021 we're due for we're due for a revision. So that's my, the biggest project I've got going right now. And a few other things working with the United States Australian rules, football league on some injury surveillance and injury prevention, particularly on the women's side. And I'm getting ready to move to Austria to begin working for red bull and I, which I'm really excited about that. Speaker 3 (07:04): Amazing, amazing. They all sound really like really great projects. And since you brought up injury prevention, let's dive into that first. So there are a lot of injury prevention programs. So can you talk a little bit about those programs in general, and then talk about really, what is what's really key for injury prevention in our athletes when it comes to those programs? Speaker 4 (07:34): Absolutely. So there's a range of different programs that have all been published on and some of them are probably a little better known than others. The FIFA 11 plus, or what's now known as just the 11 plus maybe the, one of the most notable it actually came out of a program that was called the pep program. So the 11 plus was kind of aimed at soccer players, although it has been tested in other athletes and it's considered, it's kind of a dynamic warmup. So it has some dynamic stretching and some running, some strengthening, neuromuscular control, some balance exercises within it. And most of the programs that we see that have been researched are similar kind of dynamic warmups and include a variety of different things that help athletes kind of get warmed up. So some of the other ones that have been published on include the control or knee control program coming out of Sweden at the microburst and the ACL prevention in Norwegian handball has had some great success and great literature. Speaker 4 (08:47): There's the harmony program and then the sports metrics programs a little bit different. It's actually a program that was designed to be kind of a in and of itself. So it's a three times a week, 90 minute per program, primarily plyometric based. So it's a little bit different from the other programs, but has also been successful. So we've got a number of these programs that we've seen to reduce knee and ACL injuries in particular. And most of them actually have been quite successful at reducing just injuries as a whole. But the key components that we see in particular being important for ACL and knee injuries are that these programs have a strength component. So they're building strength, particularly in the hips, the quads, the hamstrings, but also in the core. So it kind of proximal in like terms of like hip and core strengthening, being important plyometric component seems to be important. To some extent a balance component may be important, although that's kind of questionable as to like how important that is. And that's one of the things that we still need more literature on is how do these components interact and influence each other? Because we seem to know what we think is important, but how much and how those different components interact. We still don't know as much about. Speaker 3 (10:25): And when we're talking about these programs, I would imagine some of the most difficult aspects of them, especially if we're looking at a younger population. So your high school, even collegiate athletes is doing them. Yup. So can you talk a little bit about implementation and compliance with these programs and how to instill that into these players and teams? Speaker 4 (10:57): Yeah, I think, you know, we've got, like you said, we've got great information. We know these programs can work, but for them to work, you have to do them. And that implementation piece, you know, whether that be in clinical research you know, we talk about that gap between research and clinical practice. We really see that here in ACL injury prevention. And part of that also is it's not just physios in implementing where we've got a whole range of stakeholders, whether those be the athletes themselves, to coaches who are often running training sessions to parents who really have to kind of be bought in to teams and clubs as a whole. Because if you have a culture that kind of instills the importance of doing a prevention program, then it's going to kind of, it may benefit in kind of trickling down. And that's also a wider culture as well. Speaker 4 (11:58): Social media scene pro teams do it. There's all sorts of layers to this. But what I think implementation really takes is identifying with that athlete or that team what's what are barriers what's important? What do we feel is, is most important? What's not as an important, and then coming up together kind of, kind of with a collaborative strategy to overcome what are those barriers? So we know information and knowledge kind of that buy-in is important. Why the why, why are we doing this in the first place? But then there's also some of the actual practical pieces of your athlete might not want to do an exercise lying down in the grass because that grass might be wet. They're going to be wet for the rest of their training session, wet and cold for the rest of their training session. So I think it has to be a really collaborative effort. Speaker 4 (12:59): And each in each situation that solution may look a little bit different. We've got some really kind of interesting information coming out. For example, the 11 plus has now a couple of studies on breaking it apart. So taking some of the pieces, for example, taking the strengthening pieces and putting them at the end of training sessions. So coaches often complained that, you know, these injury prevention programs take too long and when you've only got the field for an hour, they don't want to give up 20 minutes of their training session to do this program. So now let's take, maybe we can take this strength piece out. I means, all right. So maybe it's 10 minutes warming up at the beginning. That's probably a little easier for a coach to swallow. Then as we're cooling down, maybe we're off the pitch where we get everybody together, we finished those strengthening components. So we're still getting the entire prevention program done with that training session, but it's split up. And so thinking creatively like that are some of the ways that I think we can do a lot better in our implementation, rather than just saying, do this, here you go. Why aren't and then coming back and saying, well, why aren't you doing it? Speaker 3 (14:18): Right, right. Oh, that's, that is really interesting that and what is, does the research show that splitting it up is still as effective? Speaker 4 (14:28): Yeah. From what we know thus far, it does seem to be as effective. I think there's some other projects that are starting to look at, can you actually do that strengthening piece at home now there's other pieces that, you know, compliance at home, remembering doing those exercises the right way that could come into play there. But as of right now, what it seems like splitting it up does seem, seem to be splitting it up. At least within a training session does seem to be as effective. Speaker 3 (14:58): Excellent. And so aside from time and constraints on like you said, wet grass, things like that, what are some other common barriers that you have seen or that the research has shown to be a barrier to doing any of these? The above mentioned prevention programs. Speaker 4 (15:21): Yeah. I think coaching education is a really big one. So whether there's a few studies in Germany that we're just looking at a coach's awareness of the 11 plus and for a program that's kind of sponsored by FIFA, you know, it's promoted as kind of this soccer warmup, you would think that coaches would be kind of aware of it. And it's, it's very quite, it's actually quite surprising how few coaches are, are aware of it. Part of that is it's not in their coaching education. So at least in soccer, as coaches move up, what kind of within the ranks and, and in higher level teams, they've got a complete licenses, just like you have to complete a license to be a physio and complete continuing education in soccer coaches do to getting that program into that coaching education, I think is a really important piece. Speaker 4 (16:18): But then there's also the piece of helping them understand, again, coming back to that, why, you know, yeah, you want your players to be available. You don't want your players injured. And that's not just a, an immediate fact, but helping them understand the long-term implications, especially of something like an ACL injury, this is not an injury. That's just going to mean you don't have this athlete for a year. This is something that's going to affect how they play long-term it's gonna affect their knee long-term it could affect their career. So this has long-term implications. Buy-In also can come from kind of some of the performance effects, the stronger, faster, more talented athlete that's that there are some of those performance effects coming potentially from performing some of these injury prevention programs or injury prevention or injury risk medic mitigation programs that can help buy in. Speaker 4 (17:22): And then if we just look at Google would cut straight to the chase, is coaches want to win oftentimes and money. If you've got more players available, we know more players available equals a more successful team. And even Holly silver is actually in some of her dissertation work looked straight at the more you do the 11 plus the more successful the NCAA division one men's team was. So there's, there's she, she actually was able to draw a connection between doing the FIFA 11 plus and winning that those are the types of things that oftentimes coaches will latch onto and say, yeah, I want to win. Or clubs will say, yeah, we want to win. We want to do that thing that makes us that, that next level that makes us better at the higher levels that keeps us earning money. Speaker 3 (18:18): Okay. Exactly. So from, from what it sounds like is to get these programs implemented is you need a lot of collaboration from everyone, from all the stakeholders, whether it be the coaches, the trainers, the physios, the players, the owners, when we're talking about big league teams and, and with our younger, our younger subset of athletes, parents, coaches, and the kids themselves. And, and I guess communicating the value of these programs depends on who you're talking to, which is why, if you're the physio communicating the program, you really have to have a different set of communication bullet points, if you will, if you will, for each person on the, within that team, because you're going to talk differently to a parent than you are to an owner of a team, or you're going to talk differently to a coach than the player or the parents. So really knowing how to, how to talk to those stakeholders is key. And I think everything you just said will kind of help people understand how to have those different conversations with different people. Speaker 4 (19:26): Yeah. And I think there's all the other piece that some of those conversations is really empowering them. So there's the education piece and helping them understand, but there's also the empowerment piece that you may be a physio and you may have this injury prevention knowledge, but you don't have to be there for this to happen. It's just as effective for you to run this program as it is for a coach or a parent to run it. And we have, there's some good data on that that coaches can run really effective injury prevention programs. And so helping them kind of take on that role and say, yeah, no, I, I feel confident in taking my players through this. I feel confident in knowing why we're doing this there. I think that's the second piece too, is that it kind of empowerment piece, and maybe it's a player, maybe it's a captain that, that needs that education or that kind of empowerment as well. Speaker 4 (20:31): I think the generation of players that's growing up now is going to be very different from the generation of players say that you and I played played with we didn't understand or really have much of this. Whereas I think there's some really, there's some kids growing up now who are growing up with some amazing knowledge. And I think also coming with it, hopefully some better strength, some more and more neuromuscular control than maybe we had coming through puberty as well. So I think it's exciting to kind of see where this next generation is going to be, because I think we're going to have some athletes that are just like that more empowered to know more about their body. Maybe have a little bit more control maybe even coming with also potentially better talent who knows, who knows? Yeah. TBD to be determined. So you mentioned a little bit about motor learning. So let's dive into that a little bit because there is new research that includes motor learning, problem solving creative thinking. So what exactly does that mean in relationship to ACL injury? Speaker 2 (21:51): No, we're going to take a quick break to hear from our sponsor and we will be right back net health therapy for private practice as a cloud-based all in one EMR solution for managing your practice. That's right. One piece of software that handles all of your scheduling documentation, billing and reporting needs. Plus lots more and one super easy to use package right now, net health is offering a special deal for healthy, wealthy, and smart listeners completed demo with the net health team and get a hundred dollars towards lunch for your staff visit net health.com/lindsey to get started and get access to free resources for PTs like eBooks on demand, webinars, and business tools. Once again, that's net health.com/l I T Z Y. Speaker 4 (22:38): Yeah. So I think it's a really exciting area. And I think we're really just kind of tipping a little bit of the iceberg. People are starting to pay attention to some of the work that's coming out. And I think it's, it is really exciting and in the kind of prevention realm what we're seeing is people kind of pointing out that the programs that we have, we know we kind of have some principles of motor learning, but the programs in injury prevention that we have haven't really paid much attention to them. So at a very basic level one of the things that has been talked about from a motor learning perspective for a while now is internal versus external cues. So we know that giving an external cube, giving an output outcome focused, Q2 and athlete is going to help them keep that motion kind of more automatic. They're not going to be thinking about like, I need my hip in line with my knee in line with my toe and foot, my knee. Can't go too far over my shoe laces. I need to sit down. Speaker 3 (23:50): That's a lot to think about. Yeah. You can't Speaker 4 (23:52): Play a sport while you're thinking about all those things. Yeah, Speaker 3 (23:55): Yeah, no, no. Speaker 4 (23:58): So when that, if that cue is external or is outcome-based suddenly that athlete's much, much more, much better able to pay attention to the soccer ball that's flying past them or getting ready to, to bat. Speaker 3 (24:13): And can you let's if you wouldn't mind, just so people have a better idea of what an internal versus an external cue is. Can you give an example of, let's say a situation we'll use soccer as the example and give an internal cue and then give an external cue so that people can differentiate. Speaker 4 (24:34): Yeah. Yeah. So maybe, maybe we'll do say we're doing like a single leg squat, similar to what I, what I just said. So an internal cue might be, I want you to keep your hip, your knee and your foot all in one straight line that external cue might be giving them a we'll say a pole that's lined up in front of them and you might not even tell them what they're, what what's going on. Maybe you've got a pole in front of a mirror, so that's poles running vertically and they're, they're they're we, we just set them up so that their foot's in front of that pole and they're doing that single leg squat. So now you've got a visual line in front of them. You're paying their, their attention is going to be on that visual line. As they're doing that single leg squat, suddenly you see that they see that like, if their hips pretty far adducted or their knees collapsing in, you've got a line you can say, focus on that line. I'm going to focus on that line. Got it. That one, it isn't their body. Other cues, maybe like giving analogies I want you to think of your body as a column or that's, that's not a brilliant one. But you know, things like that. So analogies are helpful for external cues. They're also we'll get in, I'll get into that in a, in a sec, cause they're actually another, Speaker 3 (26:10): Go get into it, get into it. Speaker 4 (26:12): So analogies also bring in another piece of motor learning, which is called implicit learning. Again, kind of having that internal picture of what emotion should like should look or what that motion should feel like is implicit learning. So you've got external and internal, external internal cues, but you've also then got kind of implicit learning. So a great example of implicit learning is when you ask, you know, a really athlete to explain what they do on the court or on the pitch. And a lot of times they can't put words to what they do. And that's, that's kind of a good example of maybe implicit learning is they've got, there's no rules set to that learning. There is no order. It's just, I've got this internal knowledge, internal picture internal kind of motor memory of what, what that is. And I just execute that. Speaker 4 (27:11): I don't think about it. And so with those, all of my attention can stay to the game. I'm not thinking about how I'm moving. I'm just, just, just kind of to the game. So pulling those back to prevention are kind of injury prevention programs have said, here's a video or here's a picture. This is good. This is bad. Or they've given kind of implicit our internal cues. So those internal cues are those, keep your knee, your hip and your foot all in one straight line where we may benefit and where we might be able to bolster. Some of those programs is by adding some of these, these motor learning pieces at the very basic level, adding external cues, maybe adding some analogies or some implicit learning. Another, another way you can facilitate implicit learning is through dual tasking. One of my favorite things reading through some of the literature is in studying implicit learning. A few authors have taken novice novice golfers, and these novice golfers have, have to go and put, and while they're putting they basically yellow letters. Speaker 4 (28:35): So you literally just be out there like trying to learn to put you, you don't. I know how to put, you may not even get any directions, but you're just out there kind of yelling some letters, because if you have to generate letters, you can't be entirely focused on that pudding. So there's that aspect actually, of having two tasks going on at once. That means not all your attention can be on one of those tasks. How does that help? How does that help the movement? Yeah, so, so that's a very good question. What it means is, as you're learning, it it's like harder, but yeah, once you get to that kind of point where you're comfortable, you're able to execute that movement. It's an automatic movement, it's unconscious, it's automatic. And when we put that in the context of sport, that means that movement is happening without the athlete thinking about it and their attention remains, remains elsewhere. Their attention can remain on the game, that's going on the ball, that's flying at them. You know, that random thing that just flew by them that wasn't the ball and wasn't part of the game, but could be that perturbation, that in another situation could be distracting enough and could lead to an injury situation. Potentially. Speaker 3 (29:58): Got it, got it. Yeah. Like I, and you and I have had this conversation before, because I have a young athlete and we're doing, trying to do incorporate some of this stuff. So one of the things we're doing is I'm having her do some unpredictability drills with clock yourself, but we're trying to do them in Spanish. So she has to say things in Spanish as she's doing them. So that she's a little do. So she's accomplishing this kind of dual tasking. And, and I will also say it's fun. It's fun for the patients, fun for the therapist. And they kind of understand while they're why they're doing those things. And then every once in a while, just like throw a ball at her and see what happens. Speaker 4 (30:42): And you put this in the context then of some of those injury prevention programs and coach buy-in. So let's put Bali's in with single leg squats, but, but you know, squats and you jump into a header. There's already a little bit of some of that in some of the programs, but the more we can get that ball, some of those technical skills involved mix them potentially in with some of the movements that we're working on, maybe that might help with some of these, this kind of adding in some of this motor learning piece. Now I say all of this, none of this has been tested yet to change any of these programs we're really doing or to kind of, we need to go back and test them. And so, you know, this is where I say this, but it is kind of hypothetical, but in thinking about it, as well as we're kind of trying to overcome some of those barriers, that 10 minutes, that we're not, maybe we're at 10 to 15 minutes where we're trying to convince a coach to do something. Speaker 4 (31:49): Coaches are going to buy in a lot more. If there's a, if they can build some skills into that or they can see the sport reflected in it, rather than it just being kind of this abstract quote unquote injury prevention program. So can we get some of this dual tasking, can we get some of this kind of real world kind of environment type demands and challenges integrated in with some of those pieces that we're trying to build from a neuromuscular standpoint, can we mix them all together and end up with a maybe potentially more beneficial outcome? Speaker 3 (32:26): Yeah. And, you know, as you're saying all of this, it's kind of opening my mind up into these programs as being these living, breathing programs that aren't set in stone and that have the ability to change and morph over time as research continues to evolve. And I think that's really exciting for these programs as well, because you don't want to have these programs be thought of as stale because then that's going to not help with your buy-in. Speaker 4 (32:55): Yep. Yeah. And that's one of the complaints that you sometimes see about some of these programs is all right, so my team's done him for a season. They've all mastered, you know, all my players have mastered this program. They're bored of it now. And the likelihood that every single one of your players has mastered every single one of those exercises is that we'll put that into question, but we'll put that one on the side, but yeah, if you're doing the exact same program, the exact same exercise, every single training session for multiple years, yeah. Your players are going to get bored of it. And so are these, some of the opportunities where we kind of help with that buy in where we make it a little bit more creative, where we help kind of with some of those implementation pieces to make it more interesting to make it more long-term and to, to really help with people wanting to do them. Speaker 3 (33:50): I think it's great. And now we're, we've spoken a little bit about research here and there. So let's talk about any gaps in the research. So, I mean, are there gaps in the research? I feel like, of course, but are these gaps something that can't be overcome? Speaker 4 (34:09): No. All of the gaps that at least dive I'm aware of, and I'm sure there are more I just finished writing a paper alongside Holly and grant the Mark. So Holly silvers and, and Gretta microburst for the journal of orthopedic research. And, and one of the things that we did was kind of go through the literature and identify some of the gaps. Speaker 3 (34:35): What were, what were they, you don't have to say all of them, just give a couple of a couple of the big ones, Speaker 4 (34:42): But one of the big ones is a lot of our literature is focused on women, which is important, but in total numbers, we still have more ACL's happening in men. So we need more research in men. A lot of our research is in soccer and handball. There's a lot of other high-risk sports at there. So there were focused kind of on team sports but there is some pretty high risk team sports, something like net ball play ball volleyball have very high ACL injury numbers, individual sports things like gymnastics and wrestling. And those are also Tufts sports to come back to they're very high impact or they're very MBA. They've got some crazy positions that you don't see. So individual sports, I think have quite lacked outside of skiing. Skiing's got a lot of attention. One of the biggest ones that I think for me is really important is we don't have good reporting of the subjects and the diversity within the research that we've done. Speaker 4 (35:51): So most of the, the research that's been done has been done in the U S some in Canada and in Scandinavia, or at least in Europe as a whole, there's been a few studies that have been in in Africa. But we even within the studies that we have in the us and Europe and Australia, we don't, none of them have reported any of the, like really the, the, the race or ethnicity of the athletes who were part of them. So those may have implications and Tracy Blake did a amazing BJSM blog that was kind of a call to action for researchers. And it's one that I'd love to echo here that we need to be better at reporting our biases looking at our, our subject populations and funding and encouraging studies outside of kind of we'll call it quote, unquote, the global North. I think that's, that's a big gap that we need to fill and we need to be more aware of. Speaker 3 (37:01): Excellent. And on that note, we are going to wrap things up, but what I would like you to do is number one, is there anything that we didn't cover or anything more that you want to add to any of the subjects we covered? Speaker 4 (37:16): Ooh, I know you always ask this question and I always have never prepared for it. Speaker 3 (37:23): Well, you know, cause I don't want to like skirt over something and then the guests at the end is like, I really wanted to say this. And she just ended the interview. Speaker 4 (37:32): Think of it probably right before I go to bed. Probably. Speaker 3 (37:36): I can't think of anything right now. Okay. Speaker 4 (37:39): Excellent. Excellent. For any readers who haven't read Dr. Tracy Blake's BJSM post definitely go check it out. We'll put the link in. Speaker 3 (37:47): Yeah. Yeah. We'll put the link into the show notes here. So you can read her blog app over at BJSM and I agree. It was it was very well written and it was a really nice call to action and or call to awareness. Yes. Yeah, yeah. Right. Maybe not call to action, but certainly a call to awareness, which is step one in the sequence of actionable moves. Definitely. So yes, she's a gym. So now before we wrap things up I'll ask the same question to you that I asked to everyone and knowing where you are now in your life and in your career, what advice would you give to yourself as a new grad? Let's say like not new grad PhD grad, but new Speaker 4 (38:36): Duke grad, new, new grad coming out of Duke PT school. I'm trying to think of what I said the last time I was on. Speaker 3 (38:46): Well, don't say it again. No, I'm just kidding. Speaker 4 (38:48): Well, yeah, that's what I'm worried about saying the same thing again. I think what I said last time, but what is my like big thing is being more gentle on myself. When I came out of PT school, I started work. I was the first new hire new grad that they'd hired. And so I was working alongside some just phenomenal clinicians, but they had the least experience, one head, like 15 years of experience. And I came out of school, unexpected myself to kind of treat and operate on the, kind of the same experience level that they did. And I it's just not possible. So I've spent a lot of time kind of beating myself up. And so it takes a lot of reminding even now that like, I still have, you know, I've graduated in 2011. So I'm coming up on 11 years of experience and it's still not a lot in a lot of ways. So being gentle on myself that I don't have to come up with, you know, everything on the spot that I don't don't necessarily have the experience to know or have seen everything or every course or development. And so being okay with that and being gentle and allowing myself to be, to, to just be where I'm at is, is I think Speaker 3 (40:08): It's wonderful advice. And just think if you thought you did know everything, I mean, how boring number one and number two, you'd never move on for sure. Speaker 4 (40:18): Yeah. Yeah. Right. So Speaker 3 (40:20): You're stuck. You'd be pretty stuck. So giving yourself the space and the kindness to say, Hey, I don't know everything. So I'm going to make it a point to learn more is just good therapy. It's just being a good PT, being a good physio, you know, otherwise you're just stuck in 2011. I mean Speaker 4 (40:41): Gotcha. Yeah. 11 wasn't bad, but I'm glad I'm not stuck there. Speaker 3 (40:45): Yeah. I mean, what a bore, right. You'd be like so boring as a PT cause you would never advance. Speaker 4 (40:51): Yeah. So your ex Speaker 3 (40:54): Excellent advice. And now where can people find you on social media and elsewhere? Speaker 4 (40:59): So I am on Twitter at, at soccer, PT 11 I'm on Instagram at squeaky Edgar. I will note that's actually more personal but follow me anywhere cause you'll get some great, great adventures. And those are my primaries social media. Speaker 3 (41:20): Excellent. And before we hop off, can you talk quickly about basketball, sports, medicine Speaker 4 (41:26): Science? Oh yeah. I forgot to talk about that in my projects. Speaker 3 (41:30): Yeah. Let's talk about this quickly. Yes. So Speaker 4 (41:34): Was honored to be a part of an editorial group that just completed. I just got a book out. It's an ASCA public, a publication on basketball, sports medicine and rehabilitation. So it's a quite the book. But I say that because it is over over 1100 pages if I remember correctly. So it's, it's a, it's a, it's a chunk of a book. But we are, I've got an extra copy of it. So one of our allowed visitors really be getting a copy. Okay. Speaker 3 (42:15): Well Amy, thank you so much for coming on. I really appreciate your time. Speaker 4 (42:19): Thank you so much for having me. It's always fun. Speaker 3 (42:21): Everyone else. Thank you for listening. Have a great couple, have a great week and stay healthy, wealthy and smart. Speaker 2 (42:28): A big thank you to Dr. Amy Erindale for coming on the podcast today. And of course a big thank you to net health. Again, they have created net health for private, for net health therapy for private practice, which is a cloud-based all in one EMR solution for managing your practice. One piece of software that handles scheduling documentation, billing reporting needs. Plus a lot more. If you want to check it out, there's a special deal for healthy, wealthy and smart listeners. Complete a demo with the net health team and get a hundred dollars toward lunch for your staff. Visit net health.com/glitzy to get started again. That's net health.com/l I T Z. Speaker 3 (43:09): Why thank you for listening and please subscribe to the podcast at podcast dot healthy, wealthy, smart.com. And don't forget to follow us on social media.  

In this episode, CEO of Fyzio4U Rehab Staffing Group, Dr. Monique J. Caruth, talks about how she, as a businesswoman, reacted to Covid-19. Dr. Monique J. Caruth, DPT, is the CEO of Fyzio4U Rehab Staffing Group providing home health services in Maryland. She currently serves as the Southern District Chair of Maryland APTA and is the Secretary-elect of the Home Health Section of the APTA. She holds a Masters and PhD in Physical Therapy from Howard University, and she is a proud immigrant from Trinidad & Tobago. Today, we hear what it’s like treating potentially Covid-positive patients, Monique tells us about the screening tool she developed, and we hear about the impact of the pandemic on mental health. Monique elaborates on the importance of Ellie Somers’s list of notable PTs, and she talks about her experiences of losing patients. How did she pivot her business to keep it afloat? How has her perspective as both a clinician and a business owner helped her pivot her business? Monique tells us about obtaining PPE, offering Telehealth visits, and she gives some advice to Home Health PTs, all on today’s episode of The Healthy, Wealthy & Smart Podcast.   Key Takeaways “We started seeing a spike in clients in mid-April when the hospitals didn’t want to discharge patients to the nursing homes; they were discharging them directly home, so the majority of our clientele were Covid-positive patients.” Monique has started compulsively disinfecting all surfaces. Monique’s screening tool: Step 1: Check temperatures every morning before seeing a patient. Step 2: Ask questions about symptoms, traveling, and possible contact with Covid-positive people. Step 3: Ensure PPE is worn. “Gone are the days of spending extra time and doing extra work there.” “One of the biggest things for therapeutic outcome is having a good relationship with your patients. Going into the home, you’re probably the only person that they’re getting to talk to most days. I saw the need to improve on soft skills and being approachable with your patients.” “Some sort of contact needs to be maintained. Even though some patients may have been discharged, they would contact the physician via Telehealth visit and ask to be seen again.” “Everyone deserves to get quality care.” “Some people say, ‘this person probably got Covid because they were being reckless’. You can slip-up, be as cautious as possible, and still get Covid.” “We’re going to see a huge wave of Covid cases coming in the next few months. With elective surgeries stopped, that’s going to be our only client population. To prevent the furloughs from happening again, I would just advise to do the screenings, get the PPE, and go and see the patients.” Why don’t women get recognition in a profession that’s supposed to be female-dominated? “People send out stuff to vote for top influencers in physical therapy. You tend to see the same names year after year, but you never see one that strictly focuses on women in physical therapy. I see many women doing great things in the physical therapy world, but because they don’t have as many followers on Twitter or Instagram, they don’t get the recognition that they deserve.” “The thing that I love about Ellie’s list is she put herself on it.” “In doing stuff you have to be kind to yourself first and love yourself first. Many of us don’t give ourselves enough praise for the stuff that we do.” “You can’t save everybody. When you just graduate as a therapist, you think you can save everyone and change the world – it takes time.”   More About Dr. Caruth Dr. Monique J. Caruth, DPT, is the CEO of Fyzio4U Rehab Staffing Group providing home health services in Maryland. She currently serves as the Southern District Chair of Maryland APTA and is the Secretary-elect of the Home Health Section of the APTA. She holds a Masters and PhD in Physical Therapy from Howard University, and she is a proud immigrant from Trinidad & Tobago.     Suggested Keywords Therapy, Rehabilitation, Covid-19, Health, Healthcare, Wellness, Recovery, APTA, PPE, Change,   To learn more, follow Monique at: Website:          Fyzio4U Facebook:       @DrMoniqueJCaruth                         @fyzio4u Instagram:       @fyzio4u LinkedIn:         Dr Monique J Caruth Twitter:            @fyzio4u   Subscribe to Healthy, Wealthy & Smart: Website:                      https://podcast.healthywealthysmart.com Apple Podcasts:          https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/healthy-wealthy-smart/id532717264 Spotify:                        https://open.spotify.com/show/6ELmKwE4mSZXBB8TiQvp73 SoundCloud:               https://soundcloud.com/healthywealthysmart Stitcher:                       https://www.stitcher.com/show/healthy-wealthy-smart iHeart Radio:               https://www.iheart.com/podcast/263-healthy-wealthy-smart-27628927   Read the Full Transcript Here  Speaker 1 (00:01): Hey, Monique. Welcome to the podcast. I'm so happy to have you on. Speaker 2 (00:06): Oh, thank you for inviting me. It's a pleasure to be on once again. Speaker 1 (00:10): Yes. Yes. I am very excited. And just so the listeners know, Monique is the newly minted secretary of the home health section of the APA. So congratulations. That's quite the honor. So congrats. Speaker 2 (00:26): Thank you very much. And Speaker 1 (00:28): We were just talking about, you know, what, what it was like being an elected position. I was on nominating committee for the private practice section. I just came off this year. Not nearly as much work as a board member. But my best advice was you'll you'll make great friendships and great relationships. And that's what you'll take forward aside from the fact that it's, you know, a little bit more work on top of the work you're already doing Speaker 2 (00:57): Well, I better get my bearings, right. So I will be on task from the one. Yeah. Speaker 1 (01:04): Yeah. I'm sure you will. And now, today, we're going to talk about how you as a business woman pivoted reacted to COVID. So we're, Monique's in Maryland, I'm in New York city. So for us East coasters, it really well, we know it hit New York city very hard in March in Maryland. When did that wave sort of hit you guys? Was it around the same time? Speaker 2 (01:33): I would say mid March, April because I had returned back to the rest of the first week of March. And then things just started going crazy. They were saying, Oh we have to be aware of COVID. But I was still seeing my clients that I had. Then we started getting calls saying that family members are worried that we'll be bringing COVID into the home. So they wanted to cancel visits. So we were getting a lot of constellations and then electric surgeries was shut down and that meant a huge drop in clients as well. Then we started seeing a spike in clients in mid April when the hospitals didn't want to discharge patients to the nursing homes, they were discharging them directly to home. So the majority of our clientele was COVID positive patients. Speaker 1 (02:36): And now as the therapist going in to see these patients, obviously you need proper protection. You need that PPE. So as we know, as all the headlines said, during the beginning of the pandemic, couldn't get PPE. So what do you do? Speaker 2 (02:54): Well, we were fortunate in Maryland that governor Hogan had PPE equipment ready at state health departments for agencies to collect. So they did ration them out. Also one of the agencies that I contract with MedStar hospital provided PPS to all the contractors and employees that were visiting COVID patients in the home. So we had the goggles face shield gowns mask, everything. There would be a specialized bag with vital sign equipment for that patient specifically that would be kept in that house and then taken back and disinfected at the end of the treatment. So we, we were shored through weekly conferences on what to do do South screenings and screening prior to each visit. So for my contractors, I developed a screening tool to ask questions if clients were having symptoms or if any family members in the home are having symptoms. And if they had exposure to anyone where COVID symptoms in the past 14 days, so we'll know what you will, that person as a person on, on the investigation or somebody who's COVID positive. So we had done the correct equipment when we go into the homes. Speaker 1 (04:18): And what does that, what does that look like? And what does that feel like for you as a therapist, knowing that you're going into a home with a patient who's COVID positive? I mean, I feel like that would make me very nervous and very anxious. So what was that like? Speaker 2 (04:36): To be quite honest, I was scared at first I try to avoid it as much as possible. But I got to a point where I needed to start seeing people or, you know, the business would go under. So you're nervous because nobody really knows how the disease will progress, what would happen. So it's a risk that you're taking. I, I probably developed compulsive disorder, making sure everything was like wiped down and clean. Even getting into the car, you know, this is affecting the stairway, the door handles double checking, making sure that they know the phone was wiped down. You know, as soon as you get in the house, after you strip washing from head to toe, making sure that, you know, you don't have anything that could possibly be brought onto the home. Speaker 1 (05:35): Right. And so when you say going back to that screening tool that you say you developed, what was, what was, what was, what did that entail for you for your contractors? Because I think this is something that a learning moment for other people, they can maybe copy your screening tool or get an idea of what they can do for their own businesses. Well, it's Speaker 2 (05:58): One that they we use to make sure that we don't have any symptoms. So checking the temperature every morning before you actually go to see a patient and asking the question, like certain questions, when, when you're scheduling a visit if they're filing in a coughing or sneezing when was the last time they got exposed or if they've been exposed to someone who traveled in the past 14 days or who's had any symptoms in the past 14 days. And so that was basically if they answered, no, then you be like, okay, fine. All you just need to do is wear the mask and the gloves and make sure that the patient that you're seeing wears the mask as well. Speaker 1 (06:41): Yeah. That's the big thing is making sure everybody's wearing a mask. Have you had any problems with people not wanting to wear a mask in their home when you go into treat them? Speaker 2 (06:51): We've had some, but most have been very compliant with, you know, wearing the mask because they realize that they, they, they do need the service. So like some patients who have like CHF or COPT that will have problems breathing while doing the exercises, I would allow them to, you know, take it off briefly, but I will step back six feet away and make sure that, you know, they get their respiration rate on the control. Then they put it back on. We'll do the exercise. Speaker 1 (07:22): Yeah. That makes sense. And are you taking, obviously taking vitals, pull socks and everything else temperature when you're going into the home? Speaker 2 (07:31): Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Speaker 1 (07:34): Okay. And I love the compulsive cleaning and wiping down of things. I'm still wiping down. If I go food shopping, I wipe everything down before I bring it into my home. And I realize it's crazy. That's crazy making, but I started doing it back in March and it seems to be working. So I continue to do it. And I'm the only one in my apartment, but I still wipe down all the handles. Speaker 2 (08:02): I would say don't lose sight of it though. Speaker 1 (08:07): I am. And I love that. You're like wiping down the car. I rented two car. I rented a car twice since COVID started. And I like almost used a can of Lysol one time. Like I liked out the whole thing and then I let it air out. And this is like in a garage going to pick it up for a rental place. And then I have like, those Sani wipes, like the real hospital disinfectants. And then I wiped everything down with those. And then I got in the car. Speaker 2 (08:36): Well, I saw it's very difficult to find Lysol here right now. So when you do find it, it's like finding gold. I know, Speaker 1 (08:44): I, I found Lysol wipes. They had Lysol wipes at Walgreens and I was like I said, Lysol wipes. And she was, yes. I was like, Oh my gosh. And then last week I found Clorox wipes, but in New York you can only get one. You can't there's no, Speaker 2 (09:04): Yeah. Care's the same thing. Toilet paper, whites, Lysol owning one per customer. So yeah, Speaker 1 (09:09): One per customer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, that's yeah, I was a thank God. I, I found one can of Lysol, one can at the supermarket and it was like, there is a light shining down on it and it was like glowing, glowing in the middle of the market. I'm like, Oh but I love, I love that all the screening tools that you're using and I think this is a great example for other people who might be going to P into people's homes who may be COVID positive. And I also think it's refreshing for you to say, yeah, I was nervous. Speaker 2 (09:47): I'm not going, gonna lie. You know, you still get nervous because you never know, like someone could be positive. And you're going in there, but you always want to be cautious because you're like, Oh my God, I hope I didn't like allow this to be touched or you forgot to wipe this and stuff too. So Speaker 1 (10:07): How much time are you spending in the home? Because there is that sort of time factor to it as well, exposure time. Right. Speaker 2 (10:16): It depends on the severity of the condition. But anywhere from like 30 minutes to like 45 minutes. Speaker 1 (10:25): Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know gone, gone are the days of, you know, spending that extra time and doing all this extra, extra work there, because if they're COVID positive, then I would assume that the longer you're in an exposed area, even though you're fully covered in PPE, I guess it raises your Speaker 2 (10:48): Well. Yeah. And, and the, in the summer, I would say, you know, depending on the amount of work that you had to do, like if you had to do like bed mobility and transfers with the patient, you'd be sweating under that gong. So you really want to want to be in there like a full hour anyway. But they were advising to spend, you know, minimum 30 minutes and to reduce the risk of you contracting it as well, too. Speaker 1 (11:17): Makes sense. So, all right. Speaker 2 (11:20): Decondition so they really can't tolerate a full hour. Speaker 1 (11:23): Right? Of course, of course. Yeah. That makes, that makes good sense. So now we've talked about obtaining the proper PPE. What other, what other pivots, I guess, is the best way to talk about it? Did you feel you had to do as the business owner? What things maybe, are you doing differently now than before? Speaker 2 (11:49): Well, as I said, I had to start seeing most of the cases to make sure that people were still being seen and like using telehealth. We started doing that. So eventually, well sky came on board to offer telehealth visits. So we were able to document telehealth visits as well. And people are responsive to those which worked out pretty well. So with some cases we'll do a one visit in the home and then do the follow-up visit telehealth. So one visit being in a home one weekend, one telehealth, if it was a twice a week patient. So that would also reduce the risk of exposure. Speaker 1 (12:40): Yeah. Yeah. Excellent. Now let's talk about keeping the business afloat, right? So yes, we're seeing patients. Yes. We're helping people, but we were also running a business. We got people to pay, we got people on payroll, you gotta pay yourself, you got to keep the business afloat to help all of these patients. So what was the most challenging part of this as from the eye of the business owner? Not the clinician. Speaker 2 (13:07): Well, you, you get fearful that you may not have enough patients to see, to cover previous expenses. So that was one of the reasons I did apply for the PPP loan. And as I mentioned to you before I was successful in acquiring that probably like around July and that, you know, cover like eight weeks of payroll, if that but it was strictly dedicated to payroll, nothing else. So everything else I had to do was to cover the bills and stuff, because that was just for payroll. Some of the agencies that we contracted for were having difficulty maintaining reimbursing. So that became a challenge as well, too. So what does that mean? Exactly. so when we contract with agencies, they're supposed to be paying us for this, the rehab services that we provide. Some of them were late with their payments as well, but I still had to pay my contractors on time. Speaker 1 (14:19): Got it. Okay. Got it. Oh, that's a pickle. Speaker 2 (14:22): Yeah, that's the thing. So that meant like sometimes some, you know, weeks of payroll, I would have to probably go over the lesson and making sure that the contractors were paid. Speaker 1 (14:37): And how about having a therapist? Furloughs? Did you have any of that? Did you know, were there any people, like maybe therapists in your area who were furloughed from their jobs and coming to you, like, Hey, do you have anything for me? Can you help? What was that situation? Speaker 2 (14:54): Yes. So I started getting free pretty among the calls about having to pick up to do work because they were followed or laid off. We currently have one contractor was working for ATI full-time that got followed. Now she's doing the home health full-time right now as a contractor we have some that are still doing it PRN, even though they went back to like their full-time jobs. But yes, we had people looking for cases to see, just to supplement the the income. Then we had a reverse situation where some people more comfortable getting the unemployment check than seeing patients at all. So, so that you had different scenarios, but it wasn't that we were in need of therapists during that time because people were willing to work. Speaker 1 (16:00): Yeah. Excellent. Excellent. And from the, I guess from your perspective being owner and clinician, so you're seeing patients you're running a business where there any sort of positive surprises that came out of this time for you, something that, that maybe made you think, Hmm. Maybe I'm going to do things a little differently moving forward? Speaker 2 (16:30): Yes. incorporating more telehealth visits. Definitely one of them and using the screening to there it helps in a lot of situations. So it makes you aware of what you might possibly be going into when you're going into the home. And I am realizing that there is one of the biggest things for therapeutic outcome is having a good relationship with your patients. So since most people aren't locked down, a lot of the patients that we do see they live by themselves, or they may just have one or two people in the home and they may possibly be working. So when going into the home, you're probably the only person that they're getting to talk to most days. So you, I saw the need to improve on soft skills and being approachable with your patients. So that was definitely a, a big thing for me. Speaker 1 (17:46): And how is that manifesting itself now? So now, you know, you figure we're what April, may, June, July, August, September, October, November, December eight, nine months in, so kind of having that realization of like, boy, this is this, I may be the only person this person speaks to today, all week, perhaps. I mean, that's can be a little, that can be a big responsibility. So how do you, how do you deal with that now that you're, you know, 10 months into this pandemic and yeah. How do, how do you feel about that now? Speaker 2 (18:29): Well, I still feel like some sort of contact needs to be maintained. So even though some patients may have been discharged they would contact the physician via a telehealth visit and asked to, you know, can you see it again? But you still maintain contact, make sure that, you know, you dropped a line and say, Hey, just following up to see if you're okay. That sort of stuff. So they, they will remember and they'll keep coming. Speaker 1 (18:58): Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh yeah. It is such a responsibility, especially for those older patients who are, who are alone most of the time. I mean, it is it's, you know, we hear more and more about the mental health effects that COVID has had on a lot of people. So and I don't think that we're immune to those effects either. I mean, how, how do you deal with the stress of, because there's gotta be an underlying stress with all of this, right. So what do you do, how do you deal with that stress? Speaker 2 (19:38): Well, one was warmer. I would try to at least take the weekends off to go do something or those and like being around people where you can, you know, laugh and, you know, watch movies, you know, goof up, you know, I have to think about work, those things help. Speaker 1 (19:59): Yeah. Just finding those outlets that you can turn it off a little bit. And I love taking the weekends off every once in a while. I have to do that. I have to remember to do that. And I'm so jealous that you're just, you just came off of a nice little vacay as well. Speaker 2 (20:19): Well it was needed. I probably won't be taking one on till probably sometime next year, so yeah. But it was, it was definitely needed. Speaker 1 (20:32): Yeah. I think I'm going to, I think I'm going to do that too. All right. So anything else, any other advice that you may have for those working in home health when it comes to going to see those during these COVID times, whether the patient has, has had, has, or has had COVID what advice would you give to our fellow home health? Pts? Speaker 2 (21:00): Well, I know I've been hearing quite a lot of PT saying that they didn't want to treat COVID patients and they should not be subjected to treating COVID patients, but as we get more awareness of what the diseases and we take the necessary precautions, I think we will be okay. Cause everyone deserves to get quality care. And I know some people will say this person probably got COVID because they were being reckless and stuff. I mean, you can slip up, be as cautious as possible and still step up and get COVID. That doesn't mean you should be denying someone to receive that treatment just to make sure that you're protected when you do go in. Because we're gonna see a huge wave of COVID cases coming in the next few months and with elective surgeries being stopped and everything like that, that's going to be our only client population and to prevent the fools and the layoffs from happening again, I would just advise them, you know, do the screenings, make sure you get your PP and we'll see the patients. It's it's not as bad as, you know, they make it seem. Speaker 1 (22:16): Yeah. Excellent advice. Excellent advice. And now we're going to really switch gears here. Okay. So this is going to be like like a, a three 60 turnaround, but before we went, before we went on the air, Monique and I were talking about just some things that, that you wanted to talk about and recent happenings in the PT world, and you brought up sort of a list of influential PTs that was compiled by our lovely friend Ellie summers. So go ahead and talk to me about why that list was meaningful to you and why you kind of wanted to talk about it. Speaker 2 (23:03): Well, you know, for the past few years I've been noticing like people send us stuff to vote for like top influencers and, and physical therapy and stuff. Do you tend to see the same names like yesteryear? But you've never seen one that just strictly focuses on a woman in physical therapy. And I see a lot of women doing great things in the physical therapy world, but because they do not have as many followers on like Twitter or Instagram, they don't get the recognition that they deserve. For example, Dr. Lisa van who's I think she's doing incredible, incredible work with the Ujima Institute. I actually consider her a mentor of mine. She, she calms me down when I try to get fired. What's it and stuff, Speaker 1 (24:03): Not you. I don't believe it. Speaker 2 (24:06): So I appreciate her for that. So for Ellie to actually construct this list and, you know, I've, I've been observing her, her tweets on her posts for a while, and I see that she questions. Why is it that, you know, women do not get the recognition in a profession that is supposed to be female dominated. So for her to do the side, you know, it was, it was really thoughtful and needed. Speaker 1 (24:40): Yeah. Yeah. And you know, her shirt talk that she gave at the women in PT summit couple of years ago, I think it was the second year we did, it was so powerful. Like everybody was crying like in tears, she's crying, everyone else is crying. And that was the year Sharon Dunn was our keynote speaker. She got everybody crying. It was like everybody was crying the whole time, but crying in like in, in not, not in a sad way, but crying in a way because the stories were so powerful and really hit home and we just wanted to lift her up and support her. But yeah, and you know, the thing that I love the most about Ellie's list is she put herself on it. Yes. How many times have you made a list and put yourself on it? I can answer me. Never, never, never in a million years, have I made a list of like influential people to put myself on it? Never know. So I saw that and I was like, good for you. Good for you. Speaker 2 (25:44): Because you know, sometimes you, you and, and doing and doing stuff, you, you have to be kind to yourself first, love yourself first. And, and her doing that, I, I believe she's demonstrating that that is something that's that needs to be done. A lot of us, we don't give ourselves enough praise for the stuff that we do. Speaker 1 (26:05): Absolutely. Absolutely. It's sort of, it's a nice lead by example moment from her. So I really appreciated that list and, and yes, Dr. Vanhoose is like a queen. She's amazing. And every time, every time I hear her speak or, or I get the chance to talk with her through the Ujima Institute to me, it's amazing how someone can have the calm that she has and the power she has at the same time. Right. I mean, I don't have that. I don't, I even know how to do that, but she just, like, she's just gets it, you know? I don't know if that's a gift. It's a gift. Yeah, totally, totally. Okay. So as we wrap things up here, I'm going to ask you the one question that I ask everyone, and that is knowing where you are now in your life and in your career. What advice would you give to your younger self you're? You're that wide-eyed fresh face PT, just out of PT school. Speaker 2 (27:16): You can't save everybody. You can't save everybody nice. When you, when you just graduate as a therapist, you think you can save everyone a change, a wall. It takes time. Speaker 1 (27:33): Yeah. Oh, excellent answer. I don't think I've heard that one yet, but I think, I think it's true that having, and it's not, that's not a defeatist. That's not a defeatist thinking at all. Yeah. Speaker 2 (27:54): I think this year have thing come to more deaths as a therapist with patients than I have probably in the 12 years that I've been practicing. I'm sorry. Yeah, because you know, you do patients that you get attached to, you know, you have this person passed away and stuff like that. So it's good while it lasts, but to protect yourself mentally and emotionally, you just realize that you can save everybody. Yeah. I think this fund DEMEC is teaching us that too. Speaker 1 (28:35): Yeah. A hundred percent. Thank you for that. And now money, where can people find you website? Social media handles Speaker 2 (28:47): Social media handles are the same on Twitter and Instagram at physio for U F Y, Z I O. Number for you Facebook slash physio for you as well. And www physio for you.org is the website Speaker 1 (29:01): Awesome. Very easy. And just so everyone knows, I'll have links to all of those in the show notes under this episode at podcast dot healthy, wealthy, smart.com. So if you want to learn more about Monique, about her business I suggest you follow her on Instagram and Twitter, cause there's always great conversations and posts going on there initiated by Monique on anything from home health to DEI, to words of wisdom. So definitely give her a follow. So Monique, thank you so much for coming on. Let's see. Last time was a really long time. I can't believe it, it seems like 10 years ago, but I think it was really like three, three years ago. I think it was DSM like three years ago though. It seems like forever ago. So thank you for coming on again. I really appreciate it. Speaker 2 (29:56): You're welcome. And thank you for having me. Okay. Absolutely. And everyone needs to be safe. Okay. Yeah. Speaker 1 (30:01): Yes, you too. And everyone else, thank you so much for listening. Have a great couple of days and stay healthy, wealthy and smart.  

On this episode of the Healthy, Wealthy and Smart Podcast, I welcome Dr. Shannon Leggett, PT, DPT to talk about how to infuse yoga principles into physical therapy practice. Dr. Legget is a manually-based orthopedic physical therapist with 21 years of experience. I understand the complex nature of pain and the necessity to use a comprehensive, individualized treatment approach. In this episode, we discuss: Shannon's journey to becoming a yoga teacher How to infuse the principles of yoga, not just the moves or poses, into PT practice Cases studies in applying yoga principles in PT  The importance of breathwork  How to be more present through yoga  And much more!    Resources: Shannon's Instagram Shannon's LinkedIn Restorative Yoga  A big thank you to Net Health for sponsoring this episode! Learn more about Net Health Therapy for Private Practice here.    More About Dr. Leggett: I am a manually-based orthopedic physical therapist with 21 years of experience. I understand the complex nature of pain and the necessity to use a comprehensive, individualized treatment approach. I perform a thorough evaluation looking at movement, strength, flexibility and balance, as well as lifestyle. I believe that how we live influences our ability to heal. I combine my extensive background of treating musculoskeletal injuries with my training in mind-body techniques to formulate a holistic plan of care   Subscribe to Healthy, Wealthy & Smart: Website:                      https://podcast.healthywealthysmart.com Apple Podcasts:          https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/healthy-wealthy-smart/id532717264 Spotify:                        https://open.spotify.com/show/6ELmKwE4mSZXBB8TiQvp73 SoundCloud:               https://soundcloud.com/healthywealthysmart Stitcher:                       https://www.stitcher.com/show/healthy-wealthy-smart iHeart Radio:                https://www.iheart.com/podcast/263-healthy-wealthy-smart-27628927   Read the full transcript here: Speaker 1 (00:07): Welcome to the healthy, wealthy, and smart podcast. Each week we interview the best and brightest in physical therapy, wellness, and entrepreneurship. We give you cutting edge information. You need to live your best life. Healthy, wealthy, and smart. The information in this podcast is for entertainment purposes only and should not be used as personalized medical advice. And now here's your host, Dr. Karen Litzy. Hey everybody. Welcome back to the podcast. I am your host parents in today's episode is brought to you by Speaker 2 (00:41): Net health. So net health now has net health therapy for private practice. This is a cloud-based all-in-one EMR solution for managing your practice. It handles scheduling documentation, billing, reporting needs. Plus lots more in one super easy to use package. And right now net health is offering a special deal for healthy, wealthy, and smart listeners. If you complete a demo with the net health team, you'll get a hundred dollars towards lunch for your staff. Visit net health.com/see to get started, and you'll also get access to free resources for PTs like eBooks on demand, webinars, and business tools. Once again, that's net health.com/l I T Z Y my last name now onto today's episode, we are going to be talking about how you can infuse yoga into your orthopedic physical therapy practice. And this is more than just infusing some yoga moves, but really infusing the background and philosophy of yoga into your physical therapy practice and to help us navigate that I'm really happy to have on the program, Dr. Speaker 2 (01:53): Shannon Leggett, she is an orthopedic, a manual physical therapy with 20 years of experience. She understands the complex nature of pain and the necessity to use a comprehensive individualized treatment approach. She performs thorough evaluations, looking at movements, strength, flexibility, and balance, as well as lifestyle. Shannon believes that how we live influences our ability to heal. So she has been able to successfully combine her extensive background of treating musculoskeletal injuries with their training and mind body techniques to formulate a holistic plan of care. And in this episode, we talk about just that, how to infuse yoga into your regular physical therapy treatments. And like I said, it goes beyond just some yoga poses and stretches, but really infusing the background and the philosophy of yoga in with your patient in with your patient treatments, but also with infusing your whole philosophy of physical therapy and how you work with your patients. So a big thanks to Shannon and everyone Speaker 3 (03:00): Enjoyed today's episode. Hey, Shannon, welcome to the podcast. I'm happy to have you on. Thanks, Ken. I'm really happy to be here. So today we're going to talk about how you have been able to infuse yoga and not just yoga the movements, but yoga, the principles into your physical therapy practice. And just for the listeners, I actually took one of Shannon's yoga classes online and it was wonderful. So thank you for having me joining. Yeah, it was great. So before we get into how you do this within your orthopedic physical therapy practice, I would love for you to let the listeners know how you yourself came into the practice of yoga. Well, it's actually kind of a funny story. I was probably in my mid thirties, which I'm not going to tell you how long ago that was. I'm not dating myself here, but I ended a relationship and I think as so many women do, it's like you either cut or dye your hair or you try something new. Okay. Speaker 3 (04:06): So trying to rock the pixie cut back then, like, I couldn't do anything with my hair. So I, I walked into my first yoga class of the New York health and racquet club on first Avenue on the upper East side. I know it, and there I was. And now that I know yoga, it was an Iyengar class, which is very alignment based very slow, very methodical holding poses. And I remember waking up the next day and being so incredibly sore and like a muscles. I mean, basically I should know what the muscles are, but like, Oh my God, that's what those feel like when you use them for long periods of time and the physical practice that, that sensation, that feeling kind of kept me going back for more. And then as time went on, I started to recognize the mental aspects of the practice that whatever I was walking into the yoga studio with or holding onto was kind of magically disappeared at the end of the class. Speaker 3 (05:13): And I am an anxiety sufferer, which I only have come to understand and realize what that was. And till like in a, within the last 10 years and yoga then became a very strong coping strategy for me. I found being connected to my body and connected to my person and putting an hour of self-care aside for me was absolutely essential. So it's definitely become one of my go-to tools to kind of handle the day in and day out stress of living, working in, in New York city. So I would think, especially now, during the times, yeah, hands down now it is. And I, and I was home for a couple of months, like everybody else. And it was, I was on my mat every single day. And then decided while I was home, I was like, well, why not see who else wants to practice? Speaker 3 (06:14): But yeah, so I, it has always been in the last like 12, 15 years, very much part of my life on a personal standpoint, it has led me to travel. I've met great people, I've taken amazing classes and explored studios in different forms. But it wasn't until probably within the last five or six years that I started to connect some dots professionally, right? Like how, how could this fit into what I do professionally? I, in terms of like a stretching standpoint, a strength building standpoint, yoga is amazing, but what about the body, the mind body connection. And I started to notice trends with a lot of my female patients I've been treating in Midtown for most of my career. And women would be walking into the clinic with your like standard orthopedic injuries, shoulder impingement, low back pain, and their response to an injury that would not necessarily be anything like, okay, just the pain was off the charts and difficult to get under control and not necessarily responding to what you would consider standard practice and you start to talk to them and they have fertility. Speaker 3 (07:38): They've had fertility issues. They've had gastrointestinal issues. They're working full time. They are full time moms too, trying to be the best they can be in both realms and self-care is last. They don't sleep well, they don't eat well. And I realized that the stress component was driving their inability to heal or meaning their ability to, you know, kind of get back to what they enjoyed. And I just was said to myself, well, how can I as a clinician kind of break into that stress cycle, how can I maybe help them Crump, you know, calm down some of their chronic systemic inflammation, how can we help them with negative thought patterns and, and whatnot. And that's not something that we traditionally are taught in physical therapy school and it, and is it my scope of practice and kind of going back and forth. Speaker 3 (08:38): So I started taking some continuing ed classes in the yoga world, and I've done some work with a clinical psychologist in Boston who treats her anxiety and depression patients with, with yoga and bodywork techniques. And, and she's a ton of research as to how mindfulness begins in the body that studies have shown that, that kind of short circuits, that stress response in your brain. So that kind of led me in that direction. And then I walked into my restorative yoga training, which I had never really taken, but it intrigued me. And because I just kind of felt intuitively that it was going to be the, like the last, not the last piece, because there's never a last piece, but a piece of the puzzle that I was missing. And it basically is how we can go from our sympathetic or fight or flight part of our nervous system into our rest and digest our parasympathetic sympathetic nervous system and how much our nervous system can drive, how we feel. Speaker 3 (09:41): And so often we have patients with chronic neck pain, chronic low back pain, like the massage, they feel better for an hour. It comes back and just this idea of chronic tension versus chronic tightness. And what restorative training does is it brings you into yoga shapes, but they're basically supported with props and it's a guided meditation and breath work. And as you move through the shape or state in the shape, you can flip the switch that vagus nerve stimulator, vagus nerve, and move into that rest and digest part of the nervous system. And I mean, in theory, like, okay, great. But four days of training and I always have neck pain, always. And I just attributed to everything we do. And that role was that from holidays and, you know, that's stressful time, but the month of December, yeah. Within four days, my neck pain was gone. Speaker 3 (10:52): It was incredible to me, how much of that pain was actually chronic tension and not necessarily this orthopedic tightness. So it was a kind of an aha moment for me in terms of what patients might carry. And I have used the teaching, the methodology in my treatment sessions, patients don't necessarily understand clients don't necessarily understand that they hold habitual tension. And so much of us, like when we say like, Oh, we have to relax. Like we sit down on the couch and drink a glass of wine and, you know, watch eight hours of Netflix. We're like, we're totally just chilling. But yet, like are holding our belly. Like our shoulders are up here, like clenching our jaw. Like we don't even know because we're relaxing. And part of, part of the restorative yoga is understanding where those patterns are. You get to know your body. Like for me, I'm a draw puncher, I'm a shoulder up late year. And, and, and once you understand that you kinda like kinda, I do like some check-ins during the day, like where are my shoulders? Where's my jaw. And taking a deep breath and kind of like letting that go. Speaker 4 (12:11): Yeah. As, as you say, this I'm unclenching my jaw a little bit. I'm a jock ledger also. So as you say this, I'm like, relax, the jaw, drop the shoulders. I am the same way. Well, it's, it's pretty amazing because it sounds like for you, and this happens, I've heard this over and over again, that it's this sort of personal experience. You have that aha moment. And then you say to yourself, well, I'm a clinician I'm trying to help people. So what can I do to improve my understanding as a clinician to help my patients? So you go, you take restorative yoga training, and then you are able to infuse that into your therapy sessions. And we were joking a bit before we went on the air. And Shannon said, well, it's not like I'm having someone who just had a labral tear, do a shoulder stand. Like that's not what it means to do, like yoga and PT. So when people think of yoga and infusing yoga into PT, I bet a lot of people think, Oh, you must do a lot of downward dogs and a lot of shoulder stands, but can you explain for a little bit more about what, what that means in, in your PT practice? Speaker 3 (13:26): Absolutely. I, if somebody comes in at, like, I was thinking a case, a case study, let's do I have a frozen shoulder? And how much of that again, tension versus tightness, how much of that tightness is being driven by the nervous system? So I'm, I always ask about stress levels. What's going on at home at work. You know, things that people do to, to, to maybe calm down or relax. And I might say, Hey, we're going to have a little bit of an experiment today. Okay. I am gonna prop you. We, I pull off of the blankets and the pillows and I'll put them in a very gentle chest opener because oftentimes you're doing a ton of stretching with a frozen shoulder or a lot of soft tissue work. If there's a level or component to stress or anxiety to that, that cranking is just going to cause your, your nervous system just clamp down and, and, and they're going to, you're going to get the exact opposite of it. Speaker 4 (14:32): Yeah, absolutely. And even like, we know if you're cranking on an arm and the, those first three to six months. No good, no good, no good. Not, not good for the patient, not good for the shoulder, Speaker 3 (14:46): Not at all. So I might spend a couple of sessions with a patient props, kind of guiding their nervous system into letting go. Typically the, you know, shoulders are rounded, pecks are tight, upper traps. So if I can kind of guide them into relaxing, letting go, I typically find a little bit more space. They're a little more trusting of me to like, maybe move them. Maybe I can modulate their pain a little bit. So they will be a little bit more, or a little less fearful of movement themselves because it's a big deal I'm to us are in pain and they don't want to move. They don't want to go in any direction that that is going to maybe reproduce their symptoms. Speaker 4 (15:35): Of course. Yeah. And, and so much goes into that sort of bucket when you're talking about pain. So there's so much that can fill that up. You know, we look at things through a bio-psycho-social lens, you know, you're asking about sleep and stress and all that goes into this, this sort of bucket. And then it gets to the point where the nervous system senses danger. And it's like, okay, that's it. We're gonna it's time. You know, the brain makes that decision. It's dangerous enough pain, right? Yep. Speaker 3 (16:06): We're going to fight, we're going to flight or we're going to freeze and think about a frozen shoulder, how much of that could be nervous system driven. And you know, and also too, just bringing in some of the mindfulness component of yoga, you know, the yoga sutras, which are kind of like the blueprint of yoga, the philosophy of yoga, the first Sutra is yoga is now that is, I mean, that is mindfulness. That is in the moment. That is the definition right there. So I use that idea of mindfulness or the tool of mindfulness to bring in throughout the day. Like I mentioned earlier, like doing a little check-in with yourself, oftentimes with my patients, I'll say, you know what, in the midst of your day, when you're like, Oh my God, if one more person calls me or how am I going to get these emails done? Speaker 3 (16:54): Or like, I have to make the train to get home to the kids. No, one's competing now. I want you to tap in or tune into your body and come back and tell me where you hold your attention. I want to know, are your shoulders up? And your ears are your jaw clincher. So often, do you hold your belly in? You think about our patients with urinary stress incontinence with low back pain. You know, I mean, if you're clenching your belly all day, that's, that is going to be, maybe unclenching will be part of the solution. So that idea of being present of checking in that is a tool I use throughout the day with my patients. That's great. And you know, with so many we're so externally focused, everything is outside. We're always 10 steps ahead. We just become very disconnected with our physical being. And I love bringing patients back into their body to teach them something that they didn't even know. You know? And I, I love when people are like, Oh my, my quadriceps. And they're like holding their hamstrings. Like we have this tool that we've been given this machine that we've been given, but nobody really educates us on how to use it or what it's about or how it moves. And I love bringing that idea of mindfulness and mindful movement into the physical therapy practice. Yeah, Speaker 4 (18:17): I think it's great. And the other thing, as you were talking about putting people into these different restorative poses that can then be transferred over to a home exercise program, Speaker 3 (18:27): Easy. I mean, honestly, like laying down on the floor, throwing your feet over the couch, the restorative doesn't even have to have props. It's basically the idea. Now don't get me wrong. The props are delicious, but the restorative is learning how to let go of that tension. As you breathe, it's letting the ground hold you up. It's letting the couch hold you up. It's letting, it's starting to kind of give into something else. You know, how much of us, like we put a coat of armor on every day, like, especially now to get through the day. And so in order to survive, we, we put on armor. Yeah. It's just in a physical structure. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. On the floor, legs on the couch, close your eyes and just breathe. And honestly, that's yoga. Speaker 4 (19:21): It doesn't have to be too complicated, Speaker 3 (19:23): Not at all. And sometimes when I start to bring things up, people like, Oh my God. Cause they think Instagram, they think poses, they think exactly very like thin, cute people, like by a pool. And it's just, it's mindfulness. It's the breath it's awareness. It doesn't have to be, it doesn't have to be twisty and credit. And I think, I think my practice is in twisting. Speaker 4 (19:48): Yeah. I think that's good to know, because I think a lot of people will look at yoga and they look at the show of it. You know what I mean? The spectacle, the show of, wow. Look at this person being able to, you know, do a handstand or a headstand and look at this and look at the positions. They can go, Oh, I can never do that. So Speaker 3 (20:06): I'm just not going to do it exactly like that. It's not for me. Or people feel ashamed and mean, especially like the, the men, they will not walk into a class because they don't want their I'd be embarrassed. And like, no one is looking at you. No one. And that's the thing I love about a studio. Like I'm an orthopedic physical therapist. I have, I'm not athletic. I love athleticism. I am not athletic. So when I love about the studio is like, I can move. I can breathe. I can exercise. No one's watching. Yeah. It's true. It's like in their own little world and that's speaks to the introvert in me like nobody's business. Speaker 4 (20:49): Yeah. Although sometimes I will say, if I go to a class, I will be looking at other people that being said one of the best yoga classes I ever did, we were blindfolded. All of that's extraordinary because it was a, it was a charity class for a charity called Achilles and Achilles supplies. Pairs runners who are hard of sight. Yeah. To do all different kinds of races from a 5k up to a marathon. And because the people they serve are usually blind. We did the whole class folded and I was thinking, Oh my God, I'm going to fall over because you know, vision is a big part of balance, but it was the best yoga class I'd ever taken because I wasn't comparing myself to everyone else. The instructor was giving really clear instructions and my balance was better because I was actually paying attention to myself versus looking at what everybody else was doing. Speaker 4 (21:46): Absolutely. And you really had to talk about a journey inward. Yeah. Right. And having to be in touch with like what your own body was doing and how you're going to assimilate. Yeah. Yeah. It was really interesting. The only weird part was the woman next to me, kept trying to hold my hand and I had to keep like, I'm like, what are you doing? And then after it, she was like, Oh, I'm sorry. I thought you were my friend. I'm like, I kind of kept taking me out of the vibe a little bit, but that is a loving community. Community is a loving community. Yes. But I really, I really loved the way I felt after that. And it, it, you know, it really got me thinking like, wow, this is something that I should be doing with my patients when we're just working on general movement is kind of have them close their eyes and really feel the movement and get into it. But now let's you, so you talked about some of the the tenants of yoga. One is yoga is now being very mindful. What other aspects of yoga aside from, you know, positioning people, restorative, what other tenants of yoga are you using with your clients or with your patients? Speaker 2 (22:59): And on that note, we're going to take a quick break to hear from our sponsor. And we'll be right back with Shannon's answer net health therapy for private practice as a cloud-based all in one EMR solution for managing your practice. That's right. One piece of software that handles all of your scheduling documentation, billing and reporting needs. Plus lots more and one super easy to use package right now, net health is offering a special deal for healthy, wealthy, and smart listeners completed demo with the net health team and get a hundred dollars towards lunch for your staff. Visit net health.com/see, to get started and get access to free resources for PTs like eBooks on demand, webinars, and business tools. Once again, that's net health.com/l I T Z Y Speaker 3 (23:49): I definitely, yes, I use the restorative, but I also use a little bit more of the, the poses, the strength building poses, the even some small sequences. I, I look at maybe look at the system as a whole, right? The fascial system, everything is connected especially my patients that sit all day. So that front body, everything is tight. Tip lecturers, chest front neck. I will give them maybe sequences of some easy poses that they can do at home to open that whole space. My runners runners don't like to stretch. They just want to run. So I always say, okay, we need to do some flexibility. And some mobility work to keep you running healthy. There's nothing better than yoga as far as I'm concerned. Thank for the buck. Especially looking through like fascial systems, you give someone a downward facing dog. Speaker 3 (24:54): Well, they're opening their shoulders, calves, hamstrings, low back. They're working on their core. So I love, I love the physical poses to help my runners, my sequences, my restorative, my breath work. How could I forget my breath work pranayama? Right? What's one of the eight limb path of yoga is breath work. And I pretty much teach every single patient who walks into my space to breathe. It is one of the most powerful tools that we have to connect to ourselves to calm our nervous system. But again, our low back pain patients, our neck pain patients, how many neck pain patients do we see that are breathing they're with their accessory muscles. So using maybe even to dossena another pose mountain pose, which is basically standing straight it's posture. So everybody learns to Dawson. And then from 2000, and once we get into that, that rib cage of pelvis alignment, we work on our breath and diaphragmatic breath, finding the belly, maybe then connecting to pelvic floor, especially for my women. Speaker 3 (26:15): So I definitely use Tadasana as my, like one point as to finding, finding a good position, finding a good home base and breath and how they can use breath work to help them with their stress response. And part of what I love is sometimes I'll teach my core patients and I don't even tell them what the breathing like. I'll tell them, listen, you know, reading is important for core, and it might with your neck pain and low back pain. So we're just, that's what we're going to start. And what I love is when a couple of visits later, they're like, you know, we feel really calm. I feel calm after I do that. And I'm starting, and I'm starting to use that like during the day. And I secretly love that Speaker 4 (27:02): Really giving tools that they can use throughout the day and that they can also see the difference. And we know that once people see the difference in the tools, we give them, they'll use them. Speaker 3 (27:13): Yes. And that's how I listen. Some people I know right off the bat that I can like infuse and introduce yoga and they're going to be all for it. Other people I know that are going to be skeptical. So that's, Speaker 4 (27:25): That's a good point. You bring up because a lot of people like yoga. So how do you, and so do you use then use the breath work to kind of open the Gates a little bit Speaker 3 (27:34): Sometimes, or I'll say, Hey, you know, the yoga has some amazing, you know, stretches that might help you with what's going on. And because they stretch multiple fascial systems, they can be very effective or, you know, not effective, but efficient everybody in the city wants to be efficient. True. So if you give them a couple of things and then they become more curious or I'll work on some mindfulness, or I will educate them, maybe how stress response can be driving their pain how having a hobby or movement can like also be an effective part of their healing process. So I, I kind of sneak it in, in, in different ways. Got it, got it. No, that makes a lot of sense. And also too, for like my, my runners, I have run a bunch of half-marathons. I did in New York city marathon in 2018, yoga is a tremendous compliment to running and read, like, it got me to the finish line. I don't think I'll ever do it again, but you never know. I've never say never, never say, never say never. So that's where, you know, anytime you tell a runner that you could help them be better, faster, stronger of they're onboard. Yeah. Very, very true. Speaker 4 (29:04): Now, what advice would you have to other physical therapists or other clinicians Speaker 3 (29:10): Who maybe Speaker 4 (29:11): Are interested in yoga or interested in infusing yoga into their practice? What are some good starting points Speaker 3 (29:20): For them? I would say, start taking some classes, yourself, understand how it makes you feel, understand the language, the sequencing the poses, you know, I, I think experience is one of the teachers. I learned by doing things in my own body and that makes me a much more effective clinician sometimes. So I would say, start taking some classes, notice the benefit yourself, listen to maybe even how yoga teachers instruct. I learned some of the best cues and best instruction from some of the yoga teachers that I have gone and work with. And starting to maybe infuse it a little bit in your sessions, in your, in your PT sessions and see how the patients respond. And then from there, there are continuing ed classes out there for physical therapists who don't necessarily want to take the 200 hour training that can learn how to use yoga in healthcare. Speaker 3 (30:30): Yeah. I took a, a great one threes, physio, yoga they are amazing. They're, they're great to follow on Instagram, if you want to learn a little bit more. I have, but they have they just did a class that I took, do I want to, no, it was maybe last year again, it's the whole thing of how to infuse yoga and physical therapy. So there there's plenty of stuff out there. There's plenty of PTs out there that are, that are doing this, that have Instagram pages. So just starting to follow, take classes easy. That's what I would do. It is so easy. It's easy. Yeah. I mean, I didn't do my yoga training until, you know, 2016, but I was using the poses and using some tenets like long, long before I was just from my own experience. Speaker 4 (31:22): Yeah. No, I love the advice to kind of take it yourself, see how you see how it feels. Cause listen, you may think you want to infuse it into your treatment and then you may take it yourself and be like, Oh, I don't, I'm not feeling this. And that's okay. You can, you can. Speaker 3 (31:37): Okay. Absolutely. It doesn't resonate with everybody. Speaker 4 (31:40): That's right. That's right. That's right. And that's okay. Awesome. So now before we kind of wrap things up, I think we, we have your one biggest takeaway is to start taking yoga classes yourself. Anything else that you want the listeners to walk away from this conversation? Speaker 3 (32:03): There are many modalities out there to help the healing process. And there are many practitioners that have different ideas to help you get there. And I think that I encourage people to find what works for them. And that sometimes some of the less traditional practices can be extraordinarily helpful. I mean, I think I personally think yoga is an extraordinarily powerful tool from the mind body perspective, we understand how much chronic pain does become a central nervous system, you know, issue that it's not just all biomechanical. So we do have to treat the whole person. We have to treat mind as well as body. And I think that yoga can be a very powerful tool, the combination and to, to, to seek and to try and to find what resonates and find what helps you. And to just, you know, it's not ever linear, it's not ever a straight trajectory. Healing is totally a journey and to not give up and just because you've tried one thing, does it mean nothing? Nothing is going to work, update, curious, stay active stay moving, find something you love to do. It doesn't have to be yoga, but move and movement is meditative. It's mindful. You know, the body, the body responds to movement. Speaker 4 (33:53): Absolutely. And now before we wrap things up, this is a question I ask everyone knowing where you are now in your life and in your career, what advice would you give to your younger self who graduated right out of PT school, a newly minted PT. Speaker 3 (34:11): I wish I had forged my own path earlier. I wish that I had listened to, you know, nothing has ever really fit for me until I brought yoga into my profession. It speaks to me. It makes sense to me. I wish I had, you know, when we did the webinar with sturdy, like let your freak flag fly, you know, be like, don't be like everybody else. I wish I had listened to that earlier, like towards my own path to not try to not try to fit myself into someone else's business model. Yeah. It's okay to want something different. It's okay. To think outside the box. It's okay. Speaker 4 (35:01): And sometimes, Speaker 3 (35:02): You know, what, what you think at first is going to work doesn't and then you find another tool. Totally have a huge toolbox. Yeah. Speaker 4 (35:12): Oh, I know. That was such good advice, you know? Cause I think so often, especially in physical therapy, as we discussed during that webinar, it's like physical therapists tend to be type a, we want to, you know, we want to be the best we wanted. We want to do good. We want to help others. And so we tend to kind of just stay in the lane totally. And are afraid to like, let the freak flag fly if you want is very hard to say, but it's true. It's true. And I thank you for reminding me and reminding the listeners of that now, where can people find you? Yes. Be true to yourself and where can people find you speaking? You can find me on LinkedIn and Instagram and what's your handle on Instagram? That's funny. That is, that is my nickname. My family, my nieces call me Shanny. Speaker 4 (36:03): S H a N N Y O G a P T and my C O very long. Very cute. I get it. I get it. Shen yoga, PTM, YC. Perfect. Perfect. Awesome. So people can find you there and we will have links to all of what Shannon spoke about today, resources and things like that. We'll put them all into the show notes at podcast on healthy, wealthy, smart.com. So one click will take you to everything we discussed today. So Shannon, thank you so much for coming on and talking about how to use yoga in your physical therapy practice. So thank you. Oh, thank you, Karen. It was a pleasure. I love, I love, I got to share the best of like my favorite part of the world. Awesome. Thank you so much. And everyone who's out there listening. Thanks so much for listening. Have a great couple of days and stay healthy, wealthy and smart. Speaker 2 (37:01): Big thank you to Shannon for sharing how she incorporates her passion, which is yoga into her physical therapy practice. And of course thank you to net health for sponsoring today's episode net health therapy for private practice is a cloud-based all-in-one EMR solution for managing your practice. One piece of software that handles all of your scheduling documentation, billing and reporting needs. Plus lots more in one super easy to use package net health is offering a special deal for healthy, wealthy, and smart listeners completed demo with the net health team and get a hundred dollars towards lunch for your staff. Visit net health.com/ let's see to get started and get access to free resources for PTs like eBooks on demand, webinars, and business tools. Once again, that's net health.com/l I T Z Y. Speaker 1 (37:53): Thank you for listening and please subscribe to the podcast at podcast dot healthy, wealthy, smart.com. And don't forget to follow us on social media.

On this episode of the Healthy, Wealthy and Smart Podcast, I welcome Dr. Joe, Tatta, PT, DPT to talk about using acceptance and mindfulness-based interventions to build resilience and overcome chronic pain. Dr. Joe Tatta is a global leader in integrative pain care and an advocate for the safe and effective treatment of chronic pain. He is the Founder of the Integrative Pain Science Institute, a cutting-edge health company reinventing pain care through evidence-based treatment, research, and professional development.  In this episode, we discuss: 1. Psychological variables associated with chronic pain 2. What is Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT)  3. How is ACT different from traditional cognitive behavioral approaches and pain education? 4. How is ACT different from mindfulness, like the kind we encounter in popular culture? 5. How does ACT help physical therapists’ function better and prevent professional burnout?  6. Dr. Tatta's latest book “Radical Relief: A Guide to Overcome Chronic Pain   Resources: Radical Relief Book  ACT for Chronic Pain Professional Training Course:  Mindfulness-Based Pain Relief Practitioner Certification RELIEF: and online mindfulness community for pain care. Facebook: @drjoetatta Instagram: @drjoetatta Twitter: @drjoetatta A big thank you to Net Health for sponsoring this episode! Learn more about the Redoc Patient Portal here.    More about Dr. Joe Tatta:  Dr. Joe Tatta is a global leader in integrative pain care and an advocate for the safe and effective treatment of chronic pain. He is the Founder of the Integrative Pain Science Institute, a cutting-edge health company reinventing pain care through evidence-based treatment, research, and professional development. For 25 years he has supported people living with pain and helped practitioners deliver more effective pain management. His research and career achievements include scalable practice models centered on lifestyle medicine, health behavior change, and digital therapeutics. He is a Doctor of Physical Therapy, a Board-Certified Nutrition Specialist, and Acceptance and Commitment Therapy trainer. Dr. Tatta is the author of two bestselling books Radical Relief: A Guide to Overcome Chronic Pain and Heal Your Pain Now: The Revolutionary Program to Reset Your Brain and Body for a Pain-Free Life and host of weekly Healing Pain Podcast. Learn more by visiting www.integrativepainscienceinstitute.com.   Subscribe to Healthy, Wealthy & Smart: Website:                      https://podcast.healthywealthysmart.com Apple Podcasts:          https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/healthy-wealthy-smart/id532717264 Spotify:                        https://open.spotify.com/show/6ELmKwE4mSZXBB8TiQvp73 SoundCloud:               https://soundcloud.com/healthywealthysmart Stitcher:                       https://www.stitcher.com/show/healthy-wealthy-smart iHeart Radio:                https://www.iheart.com/podcast/263-healthy-wealthy-smart-27628927   Read the full transcript here: Speaker 1 (00:00:01): Hey, Joe. Welcome back to the podcast. I'm happy to have you on again. Speaker 2 (00:00:06): Hi Karen. Thanks for inviting me. I'm excited to be here. Speaker 1 (00:00:08): Yes. And today we're going to be tough. Well, let's not let's, let's roll it back for a second. So it seems like each time you've come on, we've talked about some different aspects of pain, right? We're both in that chronic pain world, we love treating people with chronic pain and talking about chronic pain or persistent pain. And we've done that quite a bit. We've talked about the psychological variables associated with persistent pain and how psychologically informed physical therapy is so important. So let's talk about which variables we should be most concerned about with regard to effectively treating pain, big question right out of the gate. Speaker 2 (00:00:52): It is, and it's a, it's a great place to start. And that's a question that all of us are asking ourselves and researchers are asking this question more and more and we're trying to figure out, okay, what is like the key variable? Is there one key variable that we should be paying attention to? And it's interesting if you look at the evolution of chronic pain and I think both you and I have been practicing for about 25 years. So we've really have seen things transitioned from this biomedical biomechanical model, right? And the core of that was let me figure out, let's try and figure out or identify what's wrong with the physical body. Right. Pretty easy. Speaker 1 (00:01:34): And then the pain goes away. Speaker 2 (00:01:36): Exactly. And we were all there at one point, then this bio-psycho-social model comes in and we're like, okay, there was there a psychological variables that we should pay attention to. And what's interesting is when I talked to physical therapists about the psychological variables, they bring in a little bit of that older biomedical model in the sense of how can I identify what's wrong. And then if I know what's wrong, then I can fix it. And it makes sense. And that even shows up in some of our mental health colleagues as well when they approach people with pain. So when we look at, you know, there's kind of like five big ones pink catastrophizing, can you see your phobia, fear, avoidance, depression, anxiety, those five persistently show up in the literature as variables that are associated with poor outcomes with regards to chronic pain. So you see them all the time and we have ways we can test for it, right? Pain, catastrophizing scale Tampa kinesiophobia scale, et cetera, et cetera, evolve are well aware of these. And we all use them. What I want people to consider for a moment is these are all what we would call vulnerability processes. So this is what makes someone vulnerable to transitioning, let's say from acute pain to chronic pain and they may be important and they are important, but I would like people to consider for a minute. If you flip the coin over, what's the opposite side of vulnerability. Speaker 2 (00:03:13): And this is really important when we think about chronic pain, because our job as professionals is not necessarily to identify here's, what's wrong. You physically, here's, what's wrong with you psychologically or emotionally. And now I'm going to fix, modify or change those variables. We want to focus on as professionals. The other side of that coin is how can I help someone be more resilient? How do I develop, build or foster a sense of resiliency. So that other side of the coin, which is really what has interested me the most, I'd say in the past 10 years is looking at those positive, psychological factors that are associated with resiliency. There's three of them. We can kind of talk about them a little bit each but there are pain, self-efficacy pain, acceptance, and then values based living. Speaker 1 (00:04:01): Okay. So let's dive into each of those. So let's start with pain. Self-Efficacy what the heck does that mean? Speaker 2 (00:04:09): Yeah. And we hear the word self-efficacy used a lot, and I want to make sure that we tag on the word pain with that because just normal quote unquote self-efficacy you can measure self efficacy, but really as a pain professional, whether you're a physical therapist or another licensed health, professional, or certified actualize professional someone's confidence or their ability and their confidence in themselves to function and figure out what the cause of their pain isn't to overcome. It is basically what we identify as pain self-efficacy. Now you can actually have good self efficacy and have poor pain self-efficacy so it's important as professionals that we look at him as, okay, how can I help someone with pain self-efficacy with regard to their rehabilitation and overcoming pain. Speaker 1 (00:05:04): And so say that one more time for me, I'm going to edit some of this out, but I just want to get that into my own brain. Speaker 2 (00:05:15): No, no problem. So paint, self efficacy is one's confidence regarding their ability to function while they experience a while they have pain. Speaker 1 (00:05:24): Okay. Got it. Got it. All right. That makes sense. And that is coming from someone, the long history of chronic pain. That's not easy. Can I say that? Is it okay to say that that's not easy? Speaker 2 (00:05:41): Absolutely. And it does go back to what I mentioned a little bit earlier, where okay. If I have pain, it's this message this signal, if you will, that something's wrong. And it's perfectly normal that your mind goes to the place of, I want to stop. I want to eliminate, I want to resolve this pain with acute pain. That's fine. With chronic pain. It's something very different. And if someone gets kind of caught up in that Whirlpool, if you will, of constantly spinning and trying to figure out, okay, what is the cause of this? And they go down that biomedical route, that's where people wind up in trouble and where they don't find a solution for their pain and why pain persists. So pain self-advocacy is interesting because it's like, okay, do I have the knowledge? Do I have the tools? I have the ability in myself, right? Speaker 2 (00:06:36): Because if we're not looking at vulnerability for looking at resiliency, really what we're saying is somewhere within, inside you deep inside you actually, you have the ability to contact something that you haven't contacted yet, or maybe you've only contacted a piece of it. But if I can help you with that, if I can help you along that path, if I can help you along that journey, then we can improve your pain, self efficacy. And it's potentially the research is still kind of unclear, but it's potentially the number one factor, the number one resiliency factor with overcoming chronic pain. Speaker 1 (00:07:13): Oh gosh. As you're, you're saying that I, in my head, I'm going back, you know, 10, 15 years to when I was in pain all the time. And yes, I was searching for that fix. And what I found when my pain started to recede, I started to feel better was that I was always looking for that external fix. When in fact I had to look into myself to see how, what I can do to overcome this and, and to kind of move forward and make the best decisions I can at the time, the information that I have and be okay with it and then move forward. And that was the thing that really helped to kind of flip the switch for me. Speaker 2 (00:08:00): That's right. And there's, there's two really important things embedded in what you just said. The first is, as physical therapists were very aware of pain, avoidance painted warnings is almost when I look at pain avoidance now after studying acceptance and commitment therapy, I look at painted. William says, it's too simple. So it's like, if the, you know, if you put your hand over the flame, I pull my hand away. I avoid pain. If there's a rock in your shoe, you want to walk differently or take the rock out. What you're saying in your experience, Karen, which is common in many, people's almost every single person's experience you've had chronic pain. Is that the pain persisted for so long that not only did I avoid pain, but I started to move away from everything that was important in my life. And I moved toward only those potential areas on the, on, toward the potential causes that could alleviate my pain. Speaker 2 (00:09:00): Now in the act that's called experiential avoidance. And again, it's a little bit different than regular pain avoidance because experiential avoidance means the entire experience. The entire capsule of my life what's encased in there is only to seek out the elimination or the control of pain. And when that happens, that's when people go down sometimes sad and sometimes very scary routes of things like surgeries that don't work and one medication or multiple medications, or we see, you know, behaviors lead to passive treatments you know, leaving work and disconnected from personal relationships, all the things that we see that our patients struggle with. So it's what you say is really important. And to try to make those distinctions for therapists, I think are also important as well, because we can skim along the surface of pain, avoidance, so to speak. But I really believe if we want to be effective with pain, we need to go on this deeper level with people looking at that pain, self efficacy, looking at pain acceptance. And then the last one looking at values based living, which is what ha, which is actually the flip side of experiential avoidance. Speaker 1 (00:10:15): And something that you just said that sort of avoidance becomes all encompassing. And, and I will agree. That's exactly what would happen. Like I can remember doing things like going to an acupuncturist and having them put all these needles in my ear. And then I had to walk around the plinth counterclockwise three times. I mean, when you think about that, you're like, what? But I was so desperate. Like I was doing anything and everything for that fix. When I knew even as a physical therapist that walking counterclockwise around uplift three times doesn't really make a difference. But yet here I am doing it and doing that instead of, I don't know, meeting up with friends, right. Relaxing, going to the gym. Like I was avoiding all that other stuff because I was so laser focused on finding this cure, so to speak Speaker 2 (00:11:21): That's right. And as you're talking to me and I'm imagining what it's like for YouTube and in that experience, and you're talking about going to an acupuncturist with which, you know, I tell people, look, if you have one passive treatment that you engage in each week as a, as a means of, stress-relief totally fine by me. I have those as well. So we're not suggesting that people avoid anything that's passive, but as I listened to you, and at first you started, well, I went to the acupuncture was for my pain, but you continue to talk what you actually revealed was most important. The real pain was, yes, it was physical, but the real pain was what, it's, what it's stolen, what it Rob for my life. Right. I think you mentioned relationships. That's kind of like, all right, there's pain avoidance here, but what's the real pain underneath that. Speaker 2 (00:12:16): Cause that's what I'm curious to talk to people about. And that's what I'm curious to learn about patients when they come to me and they say they're suffering and they say, they're struggling. I want to know, okay. What about your life? Do you miss? Who do you miss in your life? What aspects of your life do you miss? Because the truth is Karen. If we look at the, the vast body of research that reaction now have with regards to chronic pain, most things, no matter what it is, if you apply just one, intervention works minimally and the outcomes are not spectacular. So they're minimal and they're not spectacular. But when you start to combine different things together, then you see more moderate improvements in clinical studies and you see a change in someone's quality of life. But ahead of all of that, some of the most important outcomes that we're looking for is to look at, okay, what's meaningful in your life. And how do I help you reconnect with that? And I really believe that the resiliency processes that are out there, they exist in all of our practices and an acceptance that can move therapy kind of has a bunch of different processes that really lend well to this. But if we can engage people with these positive psychological responses and move away from the negative sodas, because people are aware that they realize they're scared, hell of pain, there is trouble. Speaker 1 (00:13:45): Oh yeah, yeah. When I had pain, like I totally understood. Yeah, I have it. I don't want to I'll avoid anything to have it that yes, we totally, 100% get that. Speaker 2 (00:14:00): Right. They realized, they realized, they think about it a lot. They realize they're a little sad or depressed about it or anxious about it. They realized that it consumes their time, but they really want to know is how do I get my life back? There's a whole chunk of my life over here. Yes. When you sit down with somebody who has pain, the first thing they're going to talk about is physical pain and that's Norma. And we should, we should make an attempt to validate that for them. But later on, as you're working on their self-advocacy and as you're working on that third week relationship, which really needs to start like the first 10 minutes of the treatments, it really does. Doesn't it doesn't start like three weeks later. What's the first five minutes. These are the questions that we should be asking ourselves. And these are the questions that we should be asking our patients to help them navigate what's happened to them. Speaker 1 (00:14:48): Okay. So let's, let's talk about that. So you're Speaker 3 (00:14:52): The physical, I'm the physical therapist, right? How do I broach these topics or these questions with the patient without offending them without coming across, as you know, you may have patients say, Oh, that's too personal. Do you know what I mean? So how as physical therapist, and this is where, you know, you had mentioned acceptance and commitment therapy, right? So how has physical therapists, can we incorporate, act into our treatment practice? How can we do this without being offensive, Speaker 2 (00:15:34): The best place to, and I'd like, I like the word offensive because I do believe as even though I'm a big fan of psychologically informed physical therapy, and I've talked about this on podcasts and everything, I've done books, et cetera. We have to realize as physical therapists, there's a cognitive dissonance there, which means when someone comes to see us, they don't expect that we're going to be talking about psychological variables. They don't expect that. And nor should they, we have a long, long, long way to go. Not only in our own profession, but in the entire healthcare system, before we get there. Speaker 2 (00:16:15): When you're talking about interviewing someone or evaluating someone or assessing someone during the evaluation, which is really where you should start to talk about values based living, there are a couple of just simple questions that you can add into your evaluation. So again, this is psychological informed care, right? We're not becoming psychologists. We're just using principles of to inform our care so that our outcomes are better. So for example, one of the most important questions, which I always get positive responses from, and people never feel taken aback by this is if you didn't have pain right now, what would you be doing with your life? Speaker 2 (00:17:00): And it's an open-ended question, right? What kind of weaving in like, you know, principles of motivational interviewing. It allows someone to think, wow, if I didn't have pain, what would I be doing? And you, and I may be able to, to kind of access that very easily or rapidly. However, someone who's had pain for a long time. It's like, there's been a smoke screen in front of their eyes. They're no longer able to see that. Okay. There's another aspect of life for me, somewhere that I can begin to kind of work on. Another really simple one kind of a nice metaphorical one is if I had a magic wand and I can wave the magic wand and make your pain go away, what would you do? What would you do tomorrow? Or who would you visit? Who would you go see and spend your time with? So a couple of just really simple open-ended questions that you include an initial valuation. And I recommend, you know, when people first start training with me, I give them lots of different handouts with regard to values, because you can spend a whole hour on this, but if you're new, just seeding this into your practice just a little bit, day by day or session by session. So to speak, it's a nice way for you to change because there's behavior change. That's involved for us as professionals as we start to use these new interventions. Speaker 1 (00:18:20): Yeah. And I think as the, the healthcare professional, the physical therapist, like you said, there is still that unconscious bias of I got to fix it. Right. So I think I would imagine you can correct me if I'm wrong, but the more patients that we see and the more that we ask these questions, the more that I think we'll be able to kind of delve into this other part of the person sitting in front of us. Because the one thing that comes to mind when you said if you didn't have the pain, what would you be doing? What if someone's like, I don't know. I can't even picture it. You just put, I don't know. I can't picture it and move on to the next question. What, what, what happens next? Speaker 2 (00:19:11): Well, there's a couple of different parts there. Karen. the first part I just want to mention, so physical therapist and other health professionals who work in rehab are excellent at goal setting. And in fact, I think physical therapists and probably OTs are the best at goal setting, probably in the profession, in the, in the healthcare professions. Historically, we've not been very good at talking about meaningful or value based activities. What if I told you as a professional, that it's more important to help clarify someone's cloudy values instead of setting really precise short-term and long-term goals like we've been trained. So what I'm really saying is we have to challenge ourselves and look at our own practice and say, okay, what am I doing? That's effective and what am I not doing? That's effective. Now, the reason why it's called acceptance and commitment therapy is because with regard to pain, acceptance, that's, one's willingness to acknowledge pain as part of their life experience. Speaker 2 (00:20:15): And with that acknowledgement, they avoid the, they avoid the attempts to control or eliminate it. Now pain acceptance is important for people living with pain, pain. Acceptance is also vitally important for practitioners who treat people with pain because of the research is clear that we don't have a really spectacular way right now to eliminate someone's pain. I'm not saying that we can't do that. I believe it does happen, but what I'm proposing. So people who are listening to this episode is that in many ways, we put the cart before the horse, and we've said, I'm going to make your pain go away first. So we have all these ways to make your pain go away. And then you'll return to life. Speaker 2 (00:21:03): When in essence, we have to say, let's talk about how we can start to clarify what was important to you in life. Take little steps toward that. And then with that, your pain will start to go away. They're very different messages and they're also very different ways to approach a patient. So if someone turns to you Karen and says, I have no idea. I've had pain for 10 years. It's affected me so badly. I lost my job. I've lost my personal relationships. Let that person talk about their loss because just like that vulnerability process, right? They're talking about how they're vulnerable. Well, on the opposite side of that, they're really saying, I want to, I want to maintain relationships. I want to get back to work. So allow people some room, actually many times when, when questions like that come up, this is going to sound strange to people. Speaker 2 (00:21:56): But I just sit there in silence. I maintain eye-contact. I maybe move a little bit closer to the person. And I just give them some space to process that and to process the, the idea that someone's asking them, someone's interested in their life beyond just pain relief. And that can be really difficult, especially for physical therapists, because we went to school. And even if you go to like DPT program websites right now, it says like, you will learn how to like resolve someone's pain. And then we get out into the world. We got out into, you know, the profession. I mean, we figure out, Hmm, maybe I'm not as good at this. As I thought, Speaker 1 (00:22:36): This is, this is really hard. Am I missing something? I must have, they didn't teach me this in school. Am I, what do I need to learn to do this? Speaker 2 (00:22:46): That's right. So the question is, you know, what, if the way to help someone contact her values is to just sit with them and allow them some space to start to think about that. Because chances are, if someone's wrapped up in experiential avoidance, they're not thinking about that on a daily basis. They're thinking about, I need to take my medication this morning. I need a hot bath. I need to take my magnesium. I need to take my nap. I need to do some distraction activities. So I don't think about pain. That's what their mind is preoccupied with. Speaker 1 (00:23:26): Yeah. Or yeah, a hundred percent. A hundred percent. Yeah. Everything you're saying, I'm like, yep. I can remember like, Hmm, okay. I have to figure out what pillow I'm going to use. I have to figure out how much I'm going to put my bag. So it's not that heavy. When I walk around, do I have a break during the day? Did I take Advil? Did I? Yeah. So on and so forth, but that is, that's all encompassing during your day. And, and I don't think I had, well, yeah, well, when I sat with David Butler, he's like, well, what, what would you be doing? Right. And I, my answer is, I don't know. I, I never thought about it. Right. You know, and, and, and being able to send, he did exactly what you just said. He's like, well, think about it. Speaker 2 (00:24:17): And I w I want to, you know, reinforce what you're saying is that for some people it's extremely difficult for them to think about it. Yeah. Speaker 1 (00:24:24): Yeah. It's and it's really uncomfortable and it's uncomfortable. So just think of it's in control for the patient. And you're the therapist on the other end, is it uncomfortable for you as the therapist to watch someone be uncomfortable and wiggle in their chair, so to speak? Speaker 2 (00:24:41): Yeah. I love that. And my response to that is empathy for the people we work with involves a little bit of us feeling uncomfortable and sharing that unpleasantness with the person that's in front of you. And in many ways we mirror people actually. So as they're struggling and suffering as a human, who cares about someone we're struggling and suffering too, because ultimately, ultimately every physical therapist I've ever met. And, you know, I've interviewed a lot of therapist. Karen, when I asked him, why did you want to become a physical therapist? And they would say, well, I want to, to help people. And if I always dig, dig in there more, there's always a story of, well, when I was in high school, my, you know, my grandfather had a stroke and he wound up living with us and I saw the PT come in the house, or I was an athlete and I had an ACL repair. And I saw all these people in this PT place and how I could help them. So, you know, there's a, there's an aspect of human resiliency built in with that. I lost my train of thought. Sorry. one thing you can try for people who are having a hard time connecting to their values, their personal values is to ask them, Hey, if I were to share some information with you about how we can alleviate pain, who would you share that with in your life? Speaker 1 (00:26:13): That's nice. So then Speaker 2 (00:26:15): It takes it off of, it takes a little bit of the pressure off the person or off the patient. Speaker 1 (00:26:20): Yeah. Yeah. It takes a little bit off them and puts it onto someone else. Right. Speaker 2 (00:26:25): Right. And in general, we all want to help other people. And especially people with pain, they really do care about other people. And they really have an interest in not seeing other people's struggle the way, the way they've been struggling. So it's a nice way to just kind of shift the conversation a little bit. And if you continue with that, what you'll eventually see kind of like in ourselves when we learn things right. And when we teach things, we actually wind up implementing it into our life in a way that's more effective. Speaker 1 (00:26:52): Yeah. Yeah. That reminds me of Sharon Salzberg, loving kindness, meditations. So when she does those meditations, she sort of starts with, you know, think of someone else and, you know, offer them like a life of ease, a life of love, a life of serenity or kindness. And you kind of repeat that mantra for awhile and then just say, offer it to the world and you offer it to the world. And she's like, okay, now offer it to yourself. So that you've practiced someone else you've practiced the world. And then you can turn it back onto yourself. And it's, I always felt like, Oh, this is nice. Now I don't feel bad. Wishing myself a life of ease or a life of ex you know, love or XYZ. Right. Cause I think sometimes when you, I think a lot of people feel this way. They have a hard time being kind to themselves and allowing themselves to not suffer. Speaker 1 (00:27:50): Even though with chronic pain, you are suffering and you don't want to be suffering yet. It's hard to recognize that in yourself. You'd rather put it onto someone else or wish that for someone else. But it's just so hard to wish it for ourselves because maybe if, if you've had chronic pain and I'm just, I don't know if this is true or not, but you can't, it's hard to see yourself out of it. Right? And so it's hard to even think of yourself, elevating yourself up to something that maybe you'll never get to. So then you'll, won't be disappointed. Speaker 2 (00:28:25): That's right. I, I talk about this in my book, in the, in the sense of self-compassion, which can be difficult, as you said, it's a little bit easier to be compassionate toward other people. And it can be more challenging to be compassionate toward ourselves. Where I see this show up with regard to chronic pain is people have been taught. You have to fight pain. Yes. You have to overcome pain and you see this online people even come in, I'm a pain warrior. Speaker 1 (00:28:50): Yeah. Right. You gotta be tough. Speaker 2 (00:28:52): Right. You have to be tough. You have to fight it out. You have to struggle with it. And my question really with regard to that is, okay, there's definitely some work that we have to do here. There's some effort that we have to put into this and there's some behavior change. We know that as professionals, but if you enter into a battle with pain, what kind of message is that sending your mind? Speaker 1 (00:29:17): You're always on guard. You're always on high alert. And that's kind of the opposite of really what we want when we're working with people with chronic pain. That's right. Speaker 2 (00:29:25): And even, even Karen, because I can see you on video right now, as you do that, you're stiffening your whole body up. Right. And we know that things like spasm, muscle spasm, tightness is an outcome of some of these psychological variables. We're talking about being a warrior. Imagine you see holding a gun or holding like a spear they're stiff and very contracted, right. Really what we do with act. And many of the mindfulness and acceptance based approaches is we start to soften to the idea that maybe I don't have to fight this. And that may be my fighting. This maybe the battle with this is the worst, worst, worst part of this. And if I can just let this go just a little bit and allow it to be that maybe not only will my physical body soften, but also my mind will start to release a little bit with regard to some of the things that I've been struggling with or some of the things that I've been grappling with with regards to pain. Speaker 2 (00:30:21): And we know that when that happens, people work toward more pain acceptance. Not only does the quality of their life improve, but as I mentioned before, or that kind of cart before the horse, that's also when pain relief happens, why does pain relief happen with that? And that's, I think it's an important point to talk about, well, we have a reward system in our brain, right? That produces its own opioids. When you engage in activities that are meaningful and important to you, it kind of, you know, twinges that reward system in your brain over meaning it makes you feel good. Right? So engaging in things that make you feel good or rewarding or engaging in things that are rewarding, make you feel good, they bring you pleasure. Right. They bring you joy. And with that, it alleviates pain. So yes, there are ways for us to help with pain control. And there are ways for us to help people be a little bit more willing to engage in their life, even with a little bit of pain and both work effectively and both work synchronistically together to help people. Speaker 1 (00:31:35): Yeah. I know. I always look back and think, you know, there were days where I couldn't turn my neck from side to side, like I would be crying during the week, but then on Saturdays I pitch a double header and I was a windmill pitcher. No pain felt great, really good because I loved pitching. I love being with my team win or lose. It was awesome. Even if I got like hit with a line drive or something, I just, like, I was hit with a line drive in the shoulder. Didn't bother my neck at all. Didn't even think about it, no problems doing that. Right. And people would always, that's why, when you have someone with, in my case, like chronic neck pain or chronic back pain, and you see them doing something like pitching a double header, a fast pitch softball game, well, there's no way they could have pain because they're doing this. Right. Right. And so it's, it's from what you just said for me, this was really valuable in my life was meaningful. It gave me joy. So I was able to do it with Speaker 3 (00:32:40): Very little, if any pain, but on the outside, people are thinking she's faking it. Right. So what, what, what do you do in that respect? Yeah. Speaker 2 (00:32:51): Well, I just want to what you're saying resonates well with me, it takes me back really to like the first year I was practicing, which is like 25 years ago before I studied anything about acceptance and mindfulness based approaches. And I had a, a young woman who was, she was the same age as me at the time she was 26 and she was walking down one of the beautiful tree line Brown street, brownstone streets of Brooklyn on it's on a Saturday evening and a drunk driver. Kim wants to the curb and pinned her between the car and the steps of the brownstone. And instantly she was an above knee amputee on one side and the below knee amputee on the other side. And she was a patient of mine pretty much the first, entire six months of my career, basically. And the beginning of her rehab was so smooth. Speaker 2 (00:33:44): It was wonderful. And you know, it was a physical therapist. We just feel good because we're helping someone walk again and we're fitting them for prosthetic limbs and we're making them stronger. And that went all really well until two things happen. Once you start to lose some weight because she was in the hospital and eating better and exercising. So the prosthetic didn't fit as well. So it was a constant struggle with the prosthetics every day. And then two, she developed a neuroma on her, on her. One of her legs, there was a period for about two weeks where she was so utterly depressed and unhappy. Cause she was in so much pain and suffering so badly. And all of us, the PT, the OT, the nurses, the psychologists, I mean, everyone went into her room and try to motivate her. You know, we use these like rah, rah, watch your tacky. Speaker 2 (00:34:36): Yeah. Cheer her up kind of thing. So one day I went into her room and I just sat next to her. And I said, I don't, it doesn't seem like you want to walk today because that was my job. Right. As a PTA, she said, no. And I said, okay, well, what do you, what do you want to do? Then? I said, you can't stay here. You can't stay in this bed forever. You know that, you know, eventually you they're going to send you home. And she said, there's only one thing I want to do. She said she was engaged at the time. Actually. She's like, I want someone she's like, I want to get married. And I want someone to wheel me out into the dance floor in my wheelchair. I want to stand up and I want to dance with my dad. Speaker 2 (00:35:23): And that's all she wanted to do. She didn't want to walk. She didn't want to walk 50 feet in a hallway with a Walker times two. Right? Nope. Didn't care about that. She didn't care about the prosthetic legs. Really. She didn't really actually that at that time she didn't even really care if she was in a wheelchair, the rest of her life. That's what she wanted that moment. So you know what we did together. Okay. Put your hands on my shoulders. Stand at the edge of the bed. I put some music on and all we did was weight shift. Now, could I have done something more therapeutic from like a physical therapy perspective? Of course I could. Was there something, was there anything that was more important to her in that moment? No. No. Speaker 1 (00:36:10): Yeah. And now, now given the knowledge that you now have and what we know about pain and what we know about this more value-based activities and mindfulness and act, looking back on that, what does that do for you? What does that make you think of now where you are now looking back on that as such a young therapist? Speaker 2 (00:36:36): Well, it makes me think two things. First I am eternally grateful for the skills and knowledge I have now that I try to share with people as much as I can. And then I also reflect on who didn't I help? Oh, that's a can of worms, right? Yeah. Who slipped through my fingers that I wasn't aware of. And that makes me reflect back on, okay, what are we not teaching licensed professionals, especially physical therapists in school, right? So the amount of time we spend on evaluating the structure, function, the structure and function of a joint is in my opinion, at this point in my career is kind of absurd. Speaker 1 (00:37:23): That's the word? That is. So that's the word that came into my mind too. Speaker 2 (00:37:27): The reason why it's absurd and not no offense against, you know, our colleagues in academia is that this is so much packed into a PT program now. Yeah. So we have to get better at, okay. What do we have to, obviously we have to, we have to understand how to measure strength and range of motion, function, et cetera. But it's perhaps most important that we learn how to motivate and change behavior. Speaker 1 (00:37:56): Yeah, absolutely. Because when you, when you think about pain and certainly chronic pain, but even acute pain, what does acute pain do to us as humans? And then as a result, chronic pain, it changes our behavior. It forces us to change our behavior. If we sprain our ankle, we've got a big puffy ankle. Are we going to walk and run for the next week or so? No, it's going to change our behavior. And in chronic pain, that behavior change becomes more than just a few weeks of a behavior change. It becomes an embedded behavior change into personality and into everything that we do. Speaker 2 (00:38:39): That's right. And the reason why acceptance I commend therapy is so important for physical therapists is because when we look at all the literature on cognitive behavioral therapy, traditional cognitive, behavioral therapy, and even pain science education, and both of those I'm I'm in favor of, and I support, but the outcomes actually may be a little better with act with an act approach specifically for the pain, the population of those living with chronic pain and as physical therapists, knowing that we function in practice settings, where we come face to face with people who are in acute pain. And if we can start to deliver some of this during the acute setting, right, then we can prevent the transition to chronic pain. And I think that's the most important. So if you're in acute orthopedics, if you are working in inpatient rehab, I mean home care, all the various places that we function, physical therapists are in the perfect position to take the brain and the body or the minds and the body put them together and help someone overcome their pain. Speaker 1 (00:39:50): Yeah. And, and it goes back to what you said in the beginning, it's sort of fostering that resiliency in people, and that can happen the day one, you injure yourself. You know, last summer I, I had a partial tear of my calf muscle. And the first thing that came into my mind was, well, the first thing was I felt down when it happened, I was like felt for my Achilles tendon. I'm like, okay, the Achilles tendon is there. I'm good. And isn't that amazing? Like I, anything else to me was like a nothing thing. Right. But the first thing I needed to do was I felt down, I was able to point and flex my foot. My Achilles tendon was intact. I got up, I lived up the field fine. I was like, okay, I'm good. But the next day I was like, Oh my gosh, what if this doesn't go away? Speaker 1 (00:40:41): What if this, because of my own history with chronic pain, it's what if this is chronic? What if it never goes away? But, and I, instead I went the next day, I went to see an orthopedist and he did kind of what you're saying. He was like, listen, this is what's going on. This is what's going happen. And he gave me out like a timeline of expectations and for me, and, and the way that I function, that was a great way to build up my resiliency to know, Hey, first of all, it's not my Achilles tendon. And second of all, this is what's going to happen over the next couple of weeks and over the next couple of weeks, what he said happened. And so I felt okay, I'm good. It's a little sore. It's a little painful. I'm okay. With the backdrop of that chronic pain history was really meaningful to me. Speaker 2 (00:41:30): Yeah. There are variations of informed consent, just informing someone, okay, what here's what's happening. And here's how this is potentially going to play out. Can be really, really important and powerful for someone. It can help ease someone's anxiety. It can help ease their worry and concerned about it. And as I mentioned before, these are the places where, you know, we thrive as PTs actually, especially with regard to pain. I mean, if you look at pain education in licensed health professional training, PTs have the most more than psychologists were than the other mental health professionals, more than OTs. So, you know, we're putting all these pieces together. And in fact, when you look at what are the most important factors to help someone with pain it's pain education, right? So we talked about that some type of cognitive behavioral therapy, acceptance and commitment therapy is a third wave generation, cognitive behavioral therapy. And then something related to lifestyle, probably the most important factor with regard to lifestyle is movement is exercise and physical activity. So when you put pain education together with act together with helping someone or promoting physical activity, that's probably the kind of trifecta. Those are the, that's the secret sauce, if you will, of helping someone with pain. Speaker 1 (00:42:52): Yeah. I, I agree a hundred percent and now let's dive in just quickly. If you can give the listeners kind of like, what's the difference? You, you sort of alluded to it now between acceptance and commitment therapy and cognitive behavioral therapy, and also the difference between act and mindfulness. Speaker 2 (00:43:19): Sure. All really important distinctions. Thanks for the question. So cognitive behavioral therapy is kind of the first therapy that was used with regard to people's thoughts, beliefs, and emotions around pain. Most of that work focuses on identifying or challenging problematic, problematic, or modifying thoughts. And with that, as someone modifies their thoughts, you hope that it modifies and changes their behavior. So restructuring thoughts, we've heard these words before restructuring thoughts, reframing thoughts even the reconceptualization of pain, which is a purely from like a pain education perspective. It's still a more traditional cognitive behavioral therapy model, helping someone identify their thoughts, and if their thoughts are maladaptive, how can we change those thoughts now they're important. And there's a place there for that. What I propose to people when they start to look the literature on changing thoughts, specifically with pain or the route with regard to pain, it can be quite difficult and quite sticky to do that. Speaker 2 (00:44:29): There's some pretty good research that shows that there's a small group that will reconceptualize their pain really early on. There's another smaller, equally small group that will never change. And then most people are kind of somewhere in the middle. So they understand what you're saying. They understand that, okay, the herniated disc in my back, isn't the only factor with regards to my chronic lower back pain. And they understand that, you know, thoughts about your thoughts about pain, negative thoughts about pain are not necessarily good, but they don't reconceptualize. They don't change those thoughts on a hundred percent. The difference with acceptance and commitment therapy and even mindfulness, they're both what they call third generation cognitive behavioral therapies, which instead of targeting these maladaptive thoughts and beliefs, we simply help people observe that they have thoughts about what's happening. And instead of changing that we help people understand or identify, recognize that they can have those thoughts and beliefs, but still continue on with the things that are important to them in their life. So it's a big distinction. It's especially challenging for physical therapist who spent a lot of time studying pain education. And there's a physiotherapist from Ireland that came into my act program and she studied pain education for a long time. And then she studied cognitive functional therapy, both two evidence-based wonderful ways to treat pain, but she found that there were some people, a lot of patients actually, that they understood didactically what you were saying to them, but it didn't change their behavior. Speaker 2 (00:46:10): So what's wonderful about act is that act is a behavior change model. It's really based in behavioral therapy. And there's also something nice about not having to struggle with someone to change their thoughts and beliefs all the time. It takes a little bit of pressure off the person who has pain and it takes a little bit of pressure off of the therapist, Speaker 1 (00:46:30): Right? Because sometimes when you try and change those thoughts and behaviors, and I don't know about you, but I've heard this when I first started you know, really studying more about pain science and, and understanding how, how pain affects people in so many different ways. And when I first would talk to people and I bet, you know what I'm going to say here? What, what would they say to you? So you're saying it's all in my head. That's right. Right. Speaker 2 (00:47:00): And the, you know, when that happens, people feel invalidated and it kind of takes us full circle to the beginning of our conversation is it focuses on their vulnerability. Oh, so you're saying there's something wrong with the way I'm thinking. And the truth is if someone thinks about their pain, a lot, that's 100% normal. Cause that's, that's a pain supposed to do. Pain is supposed to alert you to something that's potentially harmful or something that's dangerous. So just normalizing that everyone's mind my mind, Karen, your mind, someone who has pain, we all think all, most of our thoughts throughout the day, our thoughts about how do I avoid things that could potentially harm me, things that are potentially uncomfortable, helping people just observe that actually can be the step before even the reconceptualization of pain, because how can you, how can you expect someone? How can you help someone to target thoughts and beliefs about pain if they haven't even thought about, okay, what are my thoughts? Speaker 2 (00:48:12): What are my beliefs about pain? What am I thinking right now? The average person has somewhere between 6,000 and 12,000 thoughts per day. And the truth is most of them are negative because it's a survival instinct, right? We brought this through with survival instead. How can I observe these thoughts? How can I observe my emotions? How can I be getting to observe the physical sensations in my body, whether that be anxiety, whether that be physical pain and realize that I can have contact with that, but not let it impact my behavior. So that's really the biggest difference between an act or a mindful, acceptance based approach versus a more traditional cognitive behavioral approach. Speaker 1 (00:48:57): Yeah. Thank you for that. That is very helpful. Cause I'm sure you get that question quite a bit. So it's nice to be able to clear that up. So now let's shift gears slightly ever so slightly and talk about your new book, right? So your new book, radical relief, a guide to overcoming chronic pain. So let's talk about it. Why the title why'd you write it? Go ahead. Speaker 2 (00:49:27): Well, after my first book came out called heal your pain. Now in that book, I had a section called the brain and pain. And at that time, the author only gave me so much space to write about the mind, so to speak. So I had to, I had to include small sections about mindfulness and about act and in general about the mind and how the mind responds to pain. And it kind of forced me to take a very didactic approach to pain. And people would reach out to me all the time. I want to learn more about mindfulness for pain. I want to learn more about this thing. You mentioned act about pain. So both professionals and people were coming to me. So I couldn't put it in that book. And I really firmly believed that deserved its own resource because there are solid mental skills, training and exercises that are in this book, radical relief that wasn't in my, in my first book. Speaker 2 (00:50:24): Second is it's a little bit tongue cheek, so to speak, it's a radical idea to think that two physical therapists want to spend their Thursday evening talking about the mind and mental skills training with regard to pain. So as we said before, like there's a little bit of a cognitive dissonance in there, but we know that physical therapists have a very important part with regard to helping people cope both physically as well as psychologically and emotionally. You know, the third aspect is just in general to give people this notion that it's not a radical idea to use your mind, to use mental skills training, to use mindfulness, to overcome pain. And that can be a part of your treatment. And in fact, as you and I are sitting here counting, I can guarantee you there's someone right now, who's being treated for pain who are not being offered these types of skills and you know, you, and I think it's absurd actually, but this is still happening. So radical relief really is a short book. It's only about a hundred pages. It's a workbook that includes over 50 cognitive and mindfulness type exercises to help people overcome their chronic pain in essence. And it's also written for practitioners to use as a guide in the manual that they can use in clinical practice. Speaker 1 (00:51:45): Yeah. And the one thing that I liked about the book aside from, as we were talking before we went on air, it's very, very pretty all of the illustrations are quite beautiful. But I like the fact that within each chapter there's like exercises and you have to literally write things down, pen, take pen to paper, and you can do it right in the book. Or you can grab the extra sheet of paper or what have you. But I like the fact that you have to write things down because there is something to that, you know, there is something to writing to the physical act of writing something down on paper versus typing it out or just thinking about it. And so that's something that I really appreciated throughout the book. Speaker 2 (00:52:30): Yeah. And I learned that from my first book as my first book was a very education based approach. As we mentioned, pain education is important, but it, it doesn't do a great job of changing behavior when you get involved with act, act as a very experiential therapy. So you're not sitting across from someone like talking to them, you're actually engaging with them in a lot of different ways. So what I really found was, and people can, you know, note this down for themselves. The average person doesn't want to flip through 300 pages of a book to learn about pain. They want something that's relatively short. They want something that's clear. They want something that's useful that they can really pick up, you know, now and start to use. And I think it's the same with practitioners, right? There's only so much theory and philosophy we can think about before we say, okay, what do I do with my patient today? What am I do with patient? I have at nine o'clock tomorrow, who's been suffering with fibromyalgia for 10 years. So that's why I tried to approach this book very differently from, from the first book. Speaker 1 (00:53:35): Yeah. And, and before we went on air, you, you asked me if I had a post-it note to which I said, I have a large sheet of white paper and you said, no, it needs to be a post-it note. And I said, well, I have a mini post-it note, will that do the trick? So please, please tell me why I needed a post-it note and not a large white sheet of paper. And perhaps the listeners, if they have a post-it note, they can go and grab one as well. Speaker 2 (00:54:05): Yeah. So if everyone has a post-it note and a pen or a pencil, please hit pause and grab that and come back. But as you mentioned, Karen, it's a workbook. And you said putting pen to paper changes things, right? Because in some ways it's it's experiential. So I was, as, as I was mentioning before, we don't have a good way to change thoughts and beliefs. So with that, we have to help people relate or respond differently to thoughts and beliefs. Right? All of us have things in life, thoughts and beliefs about ourselves that are somewhat unpleasant and painful, right? Some of them are really, really horrible things about ourselves. And some are, some of them are things like, you know, not so horrible. So if you'll kind of engage in this with me, I'd like you to just reflect on yourself and your own life experience and think about one negative, thought about yourself, not the worst thought possible, but one thought that, you know, maybe on a scale of one to 10 with like one the least impactful and like 10, the worst, maybe you're somewhere like a four or five. And then I want you to write that down on the post-it note. Speaker 3 (00:55:19): Okay. Speaker 2 (00:55:20): So we can't change this thought, right? The thought is there and just rip it off a little post-it pads, Speaker 3 (00:55:31): Still writing. Okay. Speaker 1 (00:55:42): My pen's running out of ink, but I remember what it was. It's, it's half written. It's written. I just, my pen ran out of ink, but okay. We can, we can go on. It is written. Speaker 2 (00:55:52): I'm going to do this with you actually. So it's written there and what I want you to do is pull it off the, pull off the post-it pad. Okay. And I want you to hold it up. I don't know, maybe about a foot or so away from your knees. I want you to look at it. And in your, in your mind, I just want you to repeat the word nice and slowly, and really kind of get lost in that word just for a moment. And then as you get lost in that word, just notice if you feel anything different in your body. Speaker 1 (00:56:37): Yeah. Looking at the yes. Speaker 2 (00:56:39): Right? Okay. So you see how thoughts have an impact on how we feel now, what I want you to do is I want you to take your arm and stretch it out as far as you can go. And I want you to look at that word. And what I want you to do is I want you to flip it upside down. Now, just turn it 180 degrees and now look at it and now see if it has any less of an impact on how you feel. Speaker 1 (00:57:07): I mean, maybe a little, Speaker 2 (00:57:09): A little bit right now. What I want you to do is I want you to maybe prop it up on the computer screen in front of you, and I want you to push back. So maybe you're 10 feet or so. Speaker 1 (00:57:22): Okay. Go. As far as my mic, as my ear, phones will take me Speaker 2 (00:57:28): And then maybe just stand up as you're there and now look at the word and then notice if there's any difference in how you feel or how you relate to that word. Speaker 1 (00:57:43): Yeah. Maybe a little bit, now that I'm standing and people can't see me, but I think I automatically stood up in the power pose. Speaker 2 (00:57:49): I noticed I still noticed put your hands on your hips. Right. So would you say there's less of an impact as you move away from the words so to speak? Yeah. Great. Okay. Come back forward. So what I just did is what they call cognitive distancing. So it was a way to distance yourself, literally as well as figuratively. So now what I want you to do cameras, I want you to take that same post in them. I want you to fold it up into a little square And I want you to put it in your back pocket. Speaker 1 (00:58:24): Okay. I don't have one. So I'll pretend I do. Speaker 2 (00:58:28): Yeah. Just stick it up your sleeve there. Okay. So now you have this unpleasant unwanted thought about yourself. It's not going away cause it's in your back pocket or it's in your front pocket or wherever it is, wherever you placed it. And my question for you is would you be willing to be with that thought and to be with those uncomfortable sensations you feel on your body, if it meant you could be a more effective physical therapist or be a more loving daughter sure. Or a more supportive wife or a girlfriend, or a more effective member of your community or a leader of your profession. Speaker 1 (00:59:14): Yeah. I can do that. Right. Speaker 2 (00:59:16): So it just shows you that we can change how people relate to thoughts. We didn't change the actual thought. Still there. We can change how people relate to them, to it. And we can also show people how, okay, this thought can be present with us and I can still experience it and not feel good about it, but I can still go about my life. And what I do with patients is I have them take these thoughts. Like I have a big herniated disc at L five S one. Okay. Write that on a piece of paper, put it in your back pocket in your briefcase and carry it around with you today and notice how at times that thought wasn't even present and didn't talk to you at all. And other times maybe it was present a little bit, you thought about it, but it didn't stop you. And other times it was like a big barrier. Right. And within those three, they're really important teaching moments that we can help patients with. Speaker 1 (01:00:09): Yeah. Oh, that's great. Great, great. Is that in the book? So Speaker 2 (01:00:14): The book is full of Speaker 1 (01:00:17): Nice. Nice. Yeah, no, I think that's great. And, and for, you know, physical therapists or other healthcare professionals that might be listening, that my hope is that this podcast will plant a seed in them to say, you know, maybe, maybe I'm I need to do a little bit more, you know, and what can I do to do more Speaker 2 (01:00:43): The biggest ask the biggest, one of the great gifts that I have come across in teaching physical therapists about act is yes, it helps your patients, but physical therapists notice a change in themselves from it. Because look, we struggle with not being able to help people. We get burnt out because of it. Absolutely. We have our own personal challenges that cause us pain and suffering. So to speak that we struggle with outside of our clinical work, that this type of work becomes really important to you. And the truth is, as you know, Karen pain will show up in life. Yes, it will show up when you least expect it. And these are effective skills that I really believe all of us need to learn and adopt not only for our patients, but for us to be effective clinicians and effective professionals for us to embody them in ourselves, then we can help people with these types of aspects and these, this type of care. Speaker 1 (01:01:44): Yeah. I don't disagree with that. I think that's great. And you know, I was just going to ask you to sort of put a bow on this conversation, if you will, and what would you like people to take away from it? I think you gave a little bit of it just now, but is there anything you'd want to add on to that? Speaker 2 (01:02:06): What I want people to take away from a mindfulness and acceptance based approach to care is that there's hope in it. And that hope really resides in helping helping, giving you the skills that help someone reconnect with their life. And that resilience that we spoke about in the beginning, the hope is really what people are looking for because they feel helpless. They feel hopeless. And this work is really about, okay, maybe there's some things in your physical body we have to work on. Maybe there are some thoughts and feelings and emotions that are difficult for you. Let's yeah. Let's kind of work on those, but know that you're whole, as you are, as a human being and everything that's required to overcome this already exists in you, I'm just going, gonna help you contact that in a way that's more efficient that moves you along this path in a way that's faster. So the whole part is really important and that's really what people are coming to us for. Speaker 1 (01:03:07): Yeah. Yeah. That's great. And then last question or no, well, last question before we get to, how do we contact you and all that other fun stuff, but, and you know what this question is, I think I've already asked it to you like three times, however many times you've been on the podcast, but let's say knowing where you are now as a therapist and as a person and in your life and your career, what advice would you give to your younger self? Maybe not right out of college, but let's say 10 years ago, before you really started delving into working with information surrounding chronic pain, Speaker 2 (01:03:48): I would say, give yourself space to fail and just allow that stuff, exploration of exploring different things and realizing, Hey, I didn't do that so well, or I wasn't so great today and allow yourself, there's a lot of pressure on us as professionals to be this, you know, master healer, so to speak. And I really think it's damaging to us as professionals. Speaker 1 (01:04:20): And I think that can lead to burnout, all that pressure on you to be the person, the one person in someone else's life. That's going to take away all their pain or take or add this, or take away that boy, that's a lot of pressure. Speaker 2 (01:04:37): That's right. I, I actually, I asked therapists now, who are you to take away someone's pain. Cause really think about what that really means. Speaker 1 (01:04:46): Like the wizard of Oz, Speaker 2 (01:04:48): Right? Like, is there some like magic fairy dust that you have that the rest of us don't have? And again, it doesn't mean that we can't help people with their pain. I mean, we can alleviate some of that pain, but that's not what, that's not what we're there for. We're there to be a witness to someone on their journey to overcome whatever it is that they're struggling with. And the kind of take that into a mindfulness realm, allow yourself to be your own witness as you move through the profession and you navigate and negotiate. Okay. Here's what I'm really good at and why I want to kind of cultivate and things that I don't have to necessarily engage with that. Speaker 1 (01:05:29): Yeah. Well said now, where can people find you? Where can they find the book, social media websites? What do you got for us? Speaker 2 (01:05:39): Easy. People can go to my website. The website is integrative pain, science institute.com or one very long word, integrated pain science institute.com. The book is called radical relief, a guide to overcome chronic pain, which you can find on Amazon in most countries. If you go to either one of those two places, you'll find the book and all the information about me. I also want to plug another book Karen, in which you're involved in. Speaker 1 (01:06:03): Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right. It's a couple of months out still. Yeah, Speaker 2 (01:06:08): I'm working. I'm the chief editor on a book that involves about 45 different physical therapists, some from academia, some from private practice and it's with regard to how physical therapists can use lifestyle interventions and practice that book will come out probably in the fall of 2021. And I want to plug it because it's an awesome book with, you know, as I mentioned, Speaker 1 (01:06:32): Amazed some amazing people involved, Speaker 2 (01:06:34): Amazing people. And Karen is one of those amazing people. Who's

In this episode, Founder of Working Simply, Inc., Carson Tate, talks about making any job your dream job. Carson has a BA in Psychology from Washington and Lee University. She also holds a Master’s in Organization Development and received her Coaching Certificate at the McColl School of Business at Queens University. She has 15 years of experience working with organizations across the globe, helping them each to improve employee engagement, productivity, and efficacy. Carson is the best-selling author of “Own it. Love it. Make it Work”, a sought after public speaker, as well as a staunch advocate for fair and flexible workplace practices. Her Productivity Style Assessment featured in the 2017 Guide to Being More Productive by Harvard Business Review. Today, we learn about the 5 areas that we need to explore in order to make our current job the best job, and Carson gives us 3 ways to identify our strengths. She tells us about her Abilities Opportunity Map, and provides the tools to avoid the “inevitable burnout”. Carson gives us the template we need to say “no”, we hear about the 15-Minute List and the importance of “protecting your 90”, and she gives some advice to her younger self, all on today’s episode of The Healthy, Wealthy & Smart Podcast.   Key Takeaways  “Any job can be your dream job because you define the dream.” You’re in a job – how do you make it the best job? Carson has identified 5 areas that we need to explore: Recognition and reward, Strengths, Relationships, Recognition and Reward – What kind of recognition and reward do you need? “I’m talking about praise and acknowledgement.” We’re all human beings, and we really need to be seen for our work. Strengths – What are those things that you do almost at near perfection? “You can’t not do them. Even on your day off you might try to do them… The reason they’re so important is because this is what you bring to the relationship with your employer.” Relationships – Having real, authentic relationships at work is essential, not only for performance, but to be happy, fulfilled, and engaged. Development – This is about owning your own professional development. Meaning, Purpose, and Joy – Meaning is not defined by what happens to you; it’s your interpretation of the events in your life. “Every job has significance. Every job is meaningful. It’s up to you to figure out what that meaning is.” There are 3 ways to find and identify our strengths: Reflection, Performance Reviews, and Highlighting Successful Tasks.   “The relationship with your employer is a relationship, and any relationship is based on social exchange theory – both parties bring to the relationship and both parties receive. In a relationship that’s healthy, both parties work towards mutually-beneficial goals.” “When we are working from our strengths, the work is easier, there’s less effort but greater impact, more joy, and more flow.” “Even at the end of the darkest week, you can pull back and find a source of hope for the meaning.” “Every time you say no to something, you’re saying yes to something else.” “Clarity creates opportunity. Doing the work to identify what your dream job looks like opens up infinite possibilities for you in your current job and in future jobs.” “In play, that’s where you’re going to find those brilliant insights and connections, and the juice to not be burnt out. The one reason we get burnt out is we don’t play; we just work all the time.”    More about Carson  Carson Tate believes that work can be the full expression of who we are – the vehicle that takes us to a place where we reach the full potential of our greatness. As a visionary in the field of personal productivity and organizational excellence, Carson uses practical advice and empathetic training to guide and support her clients, helping them shine more brightly than they ever imagined possible.  A best-selling author, teacher and coach, for 15 years Carson has worked with organizations of all sizes around the world to help them improve the engagement of their employees, the productivity of their workforces, and the efficacy of their leadership. It is her mission to change how and why we work so that we can each make a greater impact on our own lives, on our communities, and on the world at large.  Central to Carson’s vision is her belief that when we do work that matters to us, it leads to greater success and wealth. It becomes the foundation of a harmonious life where we have the time, space, mental clarity, physical well being, and emotional energy to take care of ourselves and others.  Carson Tate is also the founder of Working Simply, Inc. where she equips organizations with tools, strategies, information and insights that inspire employees and leaders to use their gifts and talents to build their legacies.  Carson’s signature courses include: Mobilize Your Inbox: How email can work for you. Work Well With Others: Find joy in teamwork.  Work Smarter, Not Harder: Get up close & personal with work. The WORKshop: How To Work Simply and Live Fully. Carson Tate Masterclass: Own it. Love it. Make it Work.  A prolific public speaker, Carson teaches audiences how to identify what success looks like from a personal and professional vantage point; how to move beyond the way we’re working today, into a new world of productivity and accomplishment; and how to “own it, love it, make it work” by breathing life and inspiration into work.  Carson is a staunch advocate and champion for fair and flexible workplace practices that create healthy, nurturing environments for workers everywhere. Her goal is to shift the focus from output to impact – our value as workers is meant to be measured by our contribution.   There’s nothing Carson loves more than connecting with people. In her uplifting and empowering courses, one-on-one coaching, speeches and workshops, Carson shares surprising ideas and insights that clients and audiences can immediately apply to create fulfilling lives that align with their values and priorities. She inspires people to craft a future for themselves in which their work plays a joyful role. Above all, Carson believes that work is where your mission meets your spirit.   Book Mention Own It. Love It. Make It Work: How to Make Any Job Your Dream Job, by Carson Tate Suggested Keywords  Productivity, Job, Work, Career, Burnout, Strengths, Relationships, Meaning, Opportunity, Possibility, Play, Recognition, Reward, Purpose, Reflection, To learn more, follow Carson at:  Website: https://carsontate.com https://www.workingsimply.com Facebook: @thecarsontate Instagram:  @thecarsontate Twitter:   @thecarsontate LinkedIn:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/carsontate YouTube:  https://www.youtube.com/c/CarsonTate   Subscribe to Healthy, Wealthy & Smart: Website: https://podcast.healthywealthysmart.com Apple Podcasts:            https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/healthy-wealthy- smart/id532717264 Spotify:                       https://open.spotify.com/show/6ELmKwE4mSZXBB8TiQvp73 SoundCloud:                                    https://soundcloud.com/healthywealthysmart Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/show/healthy-wealthy-smart iHeart Radio: https://www.iheart.com/podcast/263-healthy-wealthy-smart-27628927   Read the Transcript Here: Speaker 1 (00:00): Hi, Carson, welcome to the podcast. I am happy to have you on Karen. Speaker 2 (00:04): I'm so glad to be with you. Thanks for the invitation. Speaker 1 (00:06): Absolutely. And now, today, what I really love to talk about is how to make any job, your dream job. So this is the title of your, well, the subtitle I should say of your book own it, love it, make it work, how to make any job, your dream job. So let's talk about how to do that because there are a lot of people now working in areas or positions or working in ways that maybe they didn't think they would ever be working because of the COVID pandemic. Right. So let's talk about making your job, your dream job. So how do we go about doing that? It's just an easy question. Speaker 2 (00:47): Easy question. I love the easy questions upfront, right? Yeah. Great. Well, first of all, let's go ahead and make sure folks aren't going to give me the eye roll forever. So here's, here's the qualifying statement. So any job can be your dream job because you define the dream. So to create your dream job means that you're going to identify what that is for you and not believe there's a one size fits all or a must or should, but it's what do you need to be engaged and fulfilled in your current job? Because the other reality for most of us is that we can't just quit and go be a lavender farmer. And the South of France that sounds blissful or entrepreneurship might not be the right option for all of us. So we're in a job and I don't want you to stay in suffer. Speaker 2 (01:46): So how do we make it the best job? So there are five areas that I found in my research and work with clients that we need to explore for ourselves. The first is recognition and reward. So what type of recognition and rewards do you need? So I'm talking about praise and acknowledgement because we're all human beings and we really need to be seen for our work. But Karen, you might be the kind of person that just wants the email, great job, Karen, that goes out to the whole team and you're like, Oh God, I feel good. I might be the person that wants yeah. The boss to stand up in front of the whole group, have me there and this great grand presentation of my excellence, but we're all different. And so it's knowing what I need is the first step. So admitting that you have recognition needs and knowing what those are. Speaker 2 (02:38): And then the second one is strengths. And so you're in health care and a bit, a lot of your listeners are as well, physical therapists. So you went into your profession because you had an interest in probably an aptitude in science and working with people. The second step is to really identify and own your strengths. What are those things that you do almost at near perfection? You were really good at you. Can't not do them. So even on your day off, you might try to do them. And as something you want to develop and grow, so you might read about it. You might take courses. You're the one that has the magazine that you want to look at. Those are your strengths. And the reason they're so important is because this is what you bring to the relationship with your employer. Your strengths are what enables your employer to serve their patients, their customers, and earn revenue. Speaker 2 (03:37): And so knowing what the strengths are, a column, your relationship currency with your employer, they're the gold. And when you work from your strengths, your performance goes up, you're more in the flow and you're just generally more happy and fulfilled. So we want to spend more time working from your strengths. But the only way to do that with our employer is to demonstrate how they benefit your employer. So you have to know what they are, and then you okay to help you achieve your goal company. When I do more of this type work, we generate more revenue. We have more customers you're satisfied. So Speaker 1 (04:13): When we're talking about identifying your strengths, you don't only want to just identify them for yourself. You want to share them with your friends Speaker 2 (04:22): Employer. Yes, exactly. And in not sharing with your employer, Karen, it's being very direct and intentional with your employer around how those strengths support the company's goals. So when I do this work, we are faster. We are better with clients. We earn more money because what you want, the goal here is to do more of them. You want to be able to make an ask, Hey manager, I have a couple of tasks that we really are not driving revenue. And aren't really serving the company that I can see when to let go of those and do more of this. Speaker 1 (05:02): Yeah. That makes sense. And if you're working from your strengths, you would probably enjoy it a little bit more, cause you'll see more success. Speaker 2 (05:09): Absolutely. And I am, I come from the school of positive psychology. So I take a strengths-based approach, which means we're going to work on your strengths because I can get a 10 X lift, 10 X, times performance out of a strengths-based approach versus working on your blind spots or your, your growth areas. It doesn't mean we ignore them, but I'm not going to spend a lot of time and energy on those because the return on that time investment for the output and the impact isn't as great. Got it. Speaker 1 (05:41): How can, how do we go? How do you recommend people go about finding their strengths? Speaker 2 (05:46): Yes. So there are three ways you can do a reflection, big fan as a coach of journaling and reflection. So you reflect, what was your best day at work? What do your friends, your colleagues, praise you or acknowledge in your work day? Where do people ask you for help or advice or support? Great place to start. Then if you have any type of performance reviews or three 60 reviews, always a great place to go, to start to mind for those core strength themes. But my all-time favorite way to do it is to look at your task list in your calendar list and go through with a marker and highlight those tasks, those meetings, those calls, the podcast where you were on fire. I loved it. It was really good, strong outcome. And then you start to identify some of your core strengths that way. Speaker 1 (06:42): Let's say you are not an employee, but you're an entrepreneur. So do you give yourself performance reviews? Speaker 2 (06:54): Really? I've never been asked that question. I would say your performance reviews come from your clients. It would be, you know, that email that you get, or maybe you do a survey with your clients. You ask your clients for feedback. That would be your performance review. Got it, got it. And if you're an entrepreneur, that's where the calendar and task list analysis is super helpful for them. Because if you're not working in that formal structure of the yearly performance review, and as an entrepreneur, initially you have to do it all. And ultimately if I'm coaching you, I want you really working from your strengths and we want to start to figure out how do we automate or outsource those other items. Speaker 1 (07:39): Okay. All right. That makes sense. All right. So we've got recognition and reward, which I love and, you know, quick story on that, a friend of mine works for a publisher and she said so do you know what happened the other day? She said, I got this package in the mail and it was from the company. And it was just like some gourmet teas and a mug. And it, and it was a card that says, you know, so-and-so, you're just doing a great job and we appreciate all the work. And she was like, you know, some people need big bonuses. Some people she's like, this is what I needed. So she sort of recognized like my reward is, is just someone identifying, I'm doing a good job and writing a nice note and you know, she doesn't need like the grand fanfare. So I think it's really interesting when you said that it came to my mind and it got me thinking, what do I really like as, as reward and recognition? And I have to say, I sort of like the, just a nice email letter. Like I don't need to be on stage. I don't need it to be in front of a lot of people. And that is what really makes me feel good. Yes. Speaker 2 (08:49): Yeah. And how empowering, just to name and claim that, and then what you're going to want to do if you work for a manager is let them know how meaningful it is. And so for you, as you're as an entrepreneur and business owner, how do we create more opportunities for you Karen, to get those affirmations from me who I'm like, Oh my gosh, you know, I had this terrible injury and now I'm running again. And I just finished my first 5k. I mean, that's what we want in your inbox. Exactly. Speaker 1 (09:24): Yeah, exactly. Okay. So we've got recognition and reward. Strengths is number two, what's number three. Speaker 2 (09:30): This is all about relationships because none of us work in a silo. We all work on teams. And what's interesting is that social pain. So conflict feeling excluded from the group is processed in our brains the same way as physical pain, which is, was show interesting to me in my research. So having really authentic real relationships at work is essential. Not only for performance, but we're talking about being happy, fulfilled, and engaged. And if you don't feel like you've got a best friend or that you can talk to someone or work through conflict, which is part of business, that's a problem. So in this chapter, what we do in the book is we explore your work style, which is how you think and process information, because this is how you're going to work with other people and then identify their work style and learn to communicate with each other in a way that you aren't triggering each other and making each other one of, yeah, I'm not going to work with you and ultimately recognizing where you might be unconsciously undermining that relationship by treating everybody the same way. Speaker 1 (10:43): Yeah. That's so important. Yeah. I'm a huge fan of relationships. And I mean, I have stayed in jobs longer than I probably should have because I love the relationships. I was like, I don't want to leave. I love it here. Speaker 2 (10:57): Yes. And that that's exactly it, the people are important, right. And those relationships that is so important and we've got to do the work right. And that's why that this whole pillar is around cultivate, which requires some self-reflection, but really intentional, thoughtful work to build these relationships that bring us joy and really stretch us and help us grow. That's the fourth one is the development and it's the develop. We call it the five pillars or the five essentials. And the fourth one is to develop new skills. And this is about owning your own professional development, not waiting for your manager, not waiting for your team member to say, Hey, Karen, I think you might like this course. Or have you thought about this position? No, this is about what do I want, how do I want to grow? What's my next step. And being really about putting your own development plan together and then asking your manager to support you. So they might have an internal training program you can join, or maybe they would pay for the conference for you to continue to Uplevel your skills. Speaker 1 (12:06): Yeah. And you know, I think, again, that probably takes a little bit of identifying where, what gaps you might need to fill. So can you sort of, when you went and looked at your strengths and maybe you did find some weaknesses, is this where you would want to start developing those? Or would you take your strengths and continue to strengthen them? I guess, as an individual, you know, Speaker 2 (12:33): So I'm going to suggest that, and this is just my training and background. Let's further refund strengths because I know that the outcome of that is greater. And we also talk about a tool that I created. I call it an abilities opportunity map, where you start to look at the leadership competencies in your organization, certifications did you not get a position? The best person in your field does this? And we don't do it from a place of comparison or judgment. It's just an awareness. Ah, okay, this person has this skill set or this certification I don't just looking. And then once you build this abilities opportunity map, then you go and say, what do I really want to focus on? And how am I going to develop it? Speaker 1 (13:26): Yeah. That makes sense. And kind of looking at your organization and maybe looking at the organization and saying like, I could take, let's say from a physical therapy standpoint it's this great clinic, but while no one's doing pelvic health in this clinic. So perhaps I can develop my pelvic health skills to plug this hole, because like you said, we want to bring more to our employer so that they see us as, you know, boy, this person is a real asset to our company and then you're doing what you love to do. And then they'll continue to promote that. So it sort of circles around, right? Speaker 2 (14:05): It does because the framework and the thesis that I'm operating off of is that the relationship with your employer is a relationship. And any relationship is based on social exchange theory, which is give and take both parties, bring to the relationship and both parties receive. And in a relationship that's healthy, both parties work towards mutually beneficial goals. So developing a pelvic health program is exciting for you. You're passionate about women. This is a way to really expand your skillset, huge win for you, huge win for your clinic. It might not be the only clinic in the city that does this. So this is a beneficial win, more of what you want revenue for your company, your company is distinguishing itself. So that's where it's the employee has an equal and powerful voice in this relationship, right? Speaker 1 (15:05): Yeah. Okay. Makes sense. What's number five. Speaker 2 (15:08): The last one is design your work for more meaning. So this is where we talk about meaning purpose, joy. Speaker 1 (15:19): Hm. Speaker 2 (15:20): Point our point here is that meaning is not defined by what happens to you. It's your interpretation of the events in your life. So we go back to where we started with my premise at any job can be your dream job because you just, you define that dream. And I believe every job has significance. Every job is meaningful. It's up to you to figure out what that meaning is for you, and then start to craft and shape your work for more meaning. So let's say for example, Karen, for you, one thing that brings meaning and purpose to you is helping women that have been struggling for years within contents, so that it's damaged their self-esteem. Maybe they're not going out in public as much. And this is really important that you help these women. It feels like a passion calls for you and meaning, okay. So by developing the skillset for the pelvic therapy, and then you bring it to your company, we're creating meaning you're doing more of what you love and we're generating revenue for your company. The meaning is in the service to these women and how you were an agent of change in their life, Speaker 1 (16:40): Right? So the meaning goes beyond can go beyond just you and just your clinic or just your office or your job, but it can go into sort of the world as a whole, as a whole, which I think is what a lot of people hope that their job can do. Speaker 2 (17:00): Absolutely. And I would suggest every job does that. If you will just step back and look at it. So if we go back to I'm a runner and I'm always injured. And so physical therapists, you are my heroes because you need to doing what I love. And so just a big shout out because you keep me up, right? Cause I'm invariably always doing something and not stretching. So, but if you keep me running and I'm staying engaged and I'm healthy and I'm able to care for and keep up with my kids, like we're now talking about a ripple effect of positivity that you can draw meaning from, but you just gotta reframe because what happens, I'm guilty of this. Karen is that we get really caught up in the transactions of our day at 14 patients to see, Oh my God, have you seen my inbox? The paperwork sucks. Yes. I'm not saying that's not hard, but if we can come back and look at our task as a collective whole, that's where we can draw the meaning from. Speaker 1 (18:08): Yeah. And I'm so happy that you brought up the emails and the paperwork and, you know, cause everybody, I don't care what line of work you're in. You can relate to the emails, the paperwork, the meeting after meeting, after meeting patient, after patient, after patient. Right? So this can often lead, I think, for a lot of people to state of burnout. Right? So how can we use these five tools to help us avoid that? That what some people think is an inevitable burnout? Speaker 2 (18:40): So I'm an, a challenge. Inevitable is I don't believe anything is inevitable. I here to put quotes, air quotes. No, I'm just gonna push back. Cause I think we're aligned on that. I think we better they're like no enough, you know? So two ways, one, we double down on strengths. So when we are working from our strengths, the work is feels easier. There's less effort, but greater impact, more joy, more flow. So the more we identify connect that to how it helps our employer and really intentionally push ourselves to keep doing more of that work can help tremendously the other, Oh, there's two more things. The other thing is back to this meaning that we'll want to pull on. So even at the end of the darkest week of, I am beyond exhausted been doing this, you know, my student loan debt does not seem to be going anywhere. Speaker 2 (19:40): I'm chipping away at it. Can you pull back and find a little source of hope from the meeting? And then the third piece is the productivity. So where are you getting really thoughtful about? Let's take your inbox. I believe your inbox can be the best personal assistant you've ever had. The technology is powerful. We just don't use it. So why are we not automating our email management? So you can write rules, you can automatically schedule and send emails. We can create whole systems that filter what comes in. We can create templates. There's so much that can be done with not a lot of effort that can save you hours. So I think sometimes in the burnout we're like, Oh, it's going to take me energy and time to spend 10 minutes in my inbox, setting up that rule and two templates and Speaker 1 (20:30): Yeah, exactly. I'm like, ah, one more thing. Speaker 2 (20:35): And you're not saying no way. You're probably having an expletive in there. And I'd say, if you do this set a timer, 10 minutes, I'm going to set up one rule and write one automatic template because people ask me this question all the time. I just want to be able to use it over and over again, and then I'm done. But those two actions could potentially save you hours. So it's 10 minutes on productivity tools, looking for automation saying no to meetings that you don't need to attend because they're going to print everything they talked about and posted on the bulletin board. Or you're not even sure why you're there and there's no agenda. And it's just going to people rambling. Don't go say no. Speaker 1 (21:23): Yeah. I think that's a huge thing for people. And I've just really come to get better at the saying no thing. Of like when it's not like, when, if it's something that's not working for me, like I have to get better at saying no, because then I over-schedule myself and then I'm all stressed out. Speaker 2 (21:44): Right. And it's a self perpetuating hamster wheel. Right. Just keep on it. And the no is freedom. So one way to look at it is every time you say no to something, you're saying yes to something else. Right. Speaker 1 (22:02): So how do you, what's a gracious way to say no, Speaker 2 (22:06): At this point, I'm not able to take on any more projects with the level of attention and detail that I like to bring to projects. So thank you so much for thinking of me. Well, that's good. I like that. Yeah. Thank you for inviting me to your meeting on Friday. I can't attend. If there's anything that you would like for me to think about or reflect on in advance, please let me know. And I'll send you an email. Speaker 1 (22:30): Oh, that's nice too. Oh, very good. Very good. Hopefully people are taking notes on those. Yeah. That's really good. That's a nice way to say no, versus just saying, Oh, I'm sorry. I don't have the time. Speaker 2 (22:44): Right. And the other piece of the, no, I learned this the hard way and I'm sure your listeners have tucked up, but I live in the South. And so Dan said, we've got a little polite niceness culture going on. And part of a, no is not inviting the second email or you not busy now, Karen, how about now to meet for coffee? So we want to know that has a firm boundary that isn't going to get the creeping back. Speaker 1 (23:14): Yes. Yes. And that's hard. So, cause I know sometimes I'll say, Oh, you know, I'm, I'm really busy for the next couple of months, but why don't you check back later? No, no. Should not be doing that. Speaker 2 (23:24): No, no, no. And there's also an, I think there's tremendous value of going back to my first example of you value and respect that person you value and respect to the board, the project, the ask enough to say you aren't going to get the best of me. I can't, I can't bring you what you deserve, what this organization deserves. Thank you for thinking of me. Speaker 1 (23:50): Yeah. Kind of putting, putting them before you. Yes Speaker 2 (23:53): It's because ultimately I, I do believe we want to do our best work and when we're stretched so thin, it's just not possible. And then we began disappointing ourselves and others and that's not a cycle we want to be on either. So the door firmly don't get the creepy crawlies coming back, asking how about now? It's two months later. Where are you? No, I'm still not available. Speaker 1 (24:17): Yeah. No, that's so good. That's so good. Have a firm close to that door. Gosh, that's great. Yeah. I love that. Now is there anything else that you kind of want to add on here? That maybe we didn't cover on, on allowing people to really love their work and love their job? Speaker 2 (24:39): Yes, but I have to share, I'm going to give you one more productivity hack. Can I do that? Speaker 1 (24:44): Oh my God. I didn't want to, you can give me 10 more. I didn't want to keep asking on what, what about this one? Do you have three more that I want to give you? I can't help myself Speaker 2 (24:57): Then listeners bear with me. If you don't like this, just speed up just fast forward. Okay. So the first one was stack. So stack saying no is hard. So what I coach my clients on is let's create a template and email to say, no, these are the no templates, no, to be on the board. No, to do this project. So you think about it. You write the know and when you get that ask click. Speaker 1 (25:25): And so when you have a template, so do you mean you sort of just keep it in like a word doc and then copy paste into your email. Speaker 2 (25:33): So depending on your email platform, so I'll start with outlook and outlook. The best way to do this is to create multiple signatures. So an outlet, people think about a signatures. Haven't, you know, Karen and your phone number. Well, you can create as many, many signatures as you want. So you go in and create a signature that is gracious. No to project ask you type it, you save it. Then when I send an email, Karen I've gotten great new task force really wants you to be on you. Hit reply, insert gracious, no project signature. And in 30 seconds we've saved time. And we haven't gone through the angst of how do I say no? How do I let them down? How do I close the door? No, we do the thinking on the front end. And we just use this over and over again. So we're stacking two habits here and leveraging technology. Speaker 1 (26:36): Nice. Yeah. That's great. Speaker 2 (26:39): In g-mail you can set up templates too, as that function the same way and absolutely care. Nothing wrong with the word doc I'm copy and paste key is we write it once and you use it over and over again. We don't do the rework time. Copy paste, drop and go. Yeah, that's fabulous. The second one that is one of my favorite ones for healthcare workers is so your day is scheduled for you patient, patient, patient. And so what happens during the day is a lot of things that you could potentially do, like little tiny task or maybe call. I don't want to get your hair cut or whatever doesn't happen. And so you have all this buildup of tasks that now you're trying to do on the margins of your day. So I tell my healthcare providers build something called a 15 minute list, and this is a list that lives with you. Speaker 2 (27:31): So put it in your lab jacket as a piece of paper, put it on your phone. I don't care Magnasco and how you get it around, but it needs to be with you. And these are tasks you can do in 15 minutes or less. So schedule your cats, that checkup prep for the one-on-one with your team member, call and cancel call all of the little itsy-bitsy things that don't take a lot of time. And then what you do is when you have that patient, that's 10 minutes late, you pull out your list and you go because I can get these things done and these micro segments of our day. So it's a really efficient way to stay on top of the nits and NATS that can add up and feel overwhelming. Great. And then the third one that works well and healthcare and for everyone, but a love it from a healthcare providers is something we call protect your 90. So this is 90 minutes a day on your strategic priorities. So it could be professional development. It could be, you might be doing some research, writing a paper, it could be catching up on your charts, whatever it is. But the way it works is it's 90 minutes a day. That's focused now it's not 90 continuous minutes. Speaker 3 (28:54): That's what I was just going to ask. Yeah, no, I made only unicorns have that and without I haven't met a unicorn. Speaker 2 (28:59): Yep. So this is the power of it. So it might be 20 minutes that you choose during lunch to do your focus. Then you have another little 10 minute window where you might do another little sprint focus, but the goal is 90 minutes a day because the power and five work days, that's seven and a half hours of focus time. That is a game changer. I have had physicians write really complex research papers using this strategy because we're just chunking just yeah. Intention, intentional chunks focused, and then we go back, but it's the consecutive effort over time that up. And it doesn't feel overwhelming. I mean that versus saying I need seven and a half hours of your time. Speaker 1 (29:47): Yeah, no, that's great. Very good. Very good. I love it. Okay. So I feel like we've gone over so much but I'm loving the productivity, hacks and tips, and also loving your sort of five step template or plan to kind of love your job again. So is there anything else about that? And like I said, productivity hacks, we can go for days. People can go to your website and find more. But anything anything else on people loving their job and loving what they do? What would you like people to really remember about the chat Speaker 2 (30:25): Clarity creates opportunity. So doing the work to identify what your dream job looks like, how you want to be acknowledged and rewarded what your strengths are, the relationships you want to develop, the skills you want to grow in the meaning you bring, it opens up infinite possibilities for you in your current job. And I would suggest in future jobs, that knowledge is power. Speaker 1 (30:55): Yeah, that's great. And before we sort of sign off and find out where everyone can get in touch with you, I have one more question that I ask everyone. And that's knowing where you are now in your life and in your career. What advice would you give to your younger self? Whether it be fresh at a college or what, you know, what advice would you give to yourself? Speaker 2 (31:16): Play more? I'm a type, a perfectionist recovering. Some days, some days I'm not recovering and I will get in that strive mode and I've done it since I was 18 years old and would go back and say, it's okay, play a little more. The work's going to be there. And what I've come to learn now is that in play, that's where you're going to find those brilliant insights and connections and the juice to not be burned out. So one reason we get burned out is because we don't play. We just work all the time. Speaker 1 (31:52): Yeah. That is great advice. And I have to say, I've heard that from a couple of people on this question is to just kind of like chill out a little bit more relaxed, a little more play a little bit more. So that is great advice. Now, Carson, where can people find you if they want more information about you and what you do and, and all of and yeah. Speaker 2 (32:11): And your book. Yeah. So the book own it, love it, make it work. All of your favorite retailers, Amazon is available online. And then my website, Carson, tate.com. Check out the blogs. If you want productivity hacks, they're there tips on loving your job. We've got assessments. All the goodies are on the website. Carson, tate.com. Awesome. Speaker 1 (32:32): And then for social media, Speaker 2 (32:35): Yes, LinkedIn, the Carson Tate. Awesome. Well, thank Speaker 1 (32:40): You Carson so much. This was great. I think you gave my listeners so much to work with, so I thank you so much. Speaker 2 (32:47): Thank you, Karen. I appreciate it. And thank you guys for all that you do for us. Speaker 1 (32:52): Thank you. Thank you. And everyone who's listening. Thanks so much. Have a great couple of days and stay healthy, wealthy and smart.  

Tong Ren is an energy healing therapy based on the premise that illness is related to interruptions, or blockages, in the body's natural flow of blood, neural bioelectricity, blood, hormones and chi (life force energy). Tong Ren is a powerful healing energy treatment used to help people restore their health and heal from viruses, pain, organ disorders, cancers (including lung cancer, breast cancer, colorectal cancer, prostate cancer, skin cancer, stomach cancer, liver cancer, breast cancer), etc.Welcome to the Tong Ren Podcast | https://tongrenpodcast.com Please visit https://tongrenstation.com for more info. If you’ve benefited from this work, please make a donation to Tong Ren Station.Disclaimer: This podcast is for general informational purposes only and does not constitute the practice of medicine, nursing or other professional health care services, including the giving of medical advice, and no doctor/patient relationship is formed. The use of information on this podcast or materials linked from this blog is at the user’s own risk. The content of this blog is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Users should not disregard, or delay in obtaining, medical advice for any medical condition they may have, and should seek the assistance of their health care professionals for any such conditions. Speaker 0 00:00:01 . So what happened to your friend? She's stressed out with me, Speaker 1 00:00:08 But what happened to your friend? I mean, she fell and what happened? Speaker 2 00:00:13 She broke her hip. Speaker 1 00:00:17 So is she in the hospital? Speaker 2 00:00:20 Yeah, she also has COVID she does well, she's living with two people who had it and who didn't, who think that it's a hoax, but they both cried it. And then they pass it to Speaker 0 00:00:34 Very few precautions. They were taking. Speaker 1 00:00:39 Wow. So Speaker 2 00:00:41 I supposed to die the night that she went to the hospital, but somehow she survived, but to see how she is now, Speaker 0 00:00:51 Of course she needed surgery. Then her other son, she was living with her son and her daughter-in-law. Her other son is going to bring it back to Massachusetts when she gets through this particular stretch. All right. If she gets through, I shouldn't get through her. She's a tough bird. Health is. Speaker 2 00:01:15 So you said the toughest person I've ever met in my wife, almost as tough as her. Speaker 1 00:01:20 What are, what are her co-pilot's symptoms? I don't know if she has a decent well that's Speaker 2 00:01:27 Yeah, they gave her medication at the hospital. When they found out she was positive and said that the medication wasn't working, her blood pressure was way too low. And we got, she's going to die. That night. Fever is the biggest one is a fever, fatigue, Speaker 0 00:01:51 Big one. Speaker 2 00:01:58 My dear friend took the truck. So he's already got the vaccine months ago. He signed up for them. Wow. He's pretty sure he didn't get the placebo. Cause the second shot, he had a fever and he felt I'm crying for two days. And him and his doctor, friends, they all had those same symptoms. He was a pretty sure I didn't get the placebo. I'm like, wow. But he's okay now. Oh yeah. It's a series of two shots and the second shot him and five of his colleagues all had a slight fever and they just felt like for 48 hours he was 95% sure. I already thought, wow. So ain't gonna run around Speaker 0 00:02:53 Maybe. Speaker 1 00:02:55 I mean this still isn't long-term results.

Show Notes: Speaker 1: (00:00) Welcome to the simplified integration podcast. This is episode number 35, how to replace your Facebook ad agency. Speaker 2: (00:10) Leonardo DaVinci once said that simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. And I agree you see the problem with the way that most consulting groups approach medical integration is anything but simple. In fact, it's the exact opposite. It's expensive, it's complicated. And quite frankly, it's exhausting enough is enough. There are far too many amazing integrated clinics that are struggling well. I'm on a mission to change that what I've come to find from over five years, working with integrative practices is that simplicity really is the secret. The old saying of less is more, is true through a streamlined approach. I was able to create multiple successful seven figure integrated clinics. And now I'm going to show you how you can do the same. Join me as I share with you the secrets to successful medical integration and practice growth. Join me on a journey to greater sophistication through innovation. I'm dr. Andrew Wells and welcome to the simplified integration podcast. Speaker 1: (01:09) Welcome back doc to the simplified integration podcast. It's great to have you here today. So today we have a special guest. Uh, usually these podcasts are just me spouting some, some knowledge and, and, uh, things I know about integration, but I'm really happy to have Sam Carlson on today. Uh, Sam has been a buddy of mine for about a year and a half, and, uh, the title of the podcast is how to replace your Facebook ad agency. And ironically, Sam has been my Facebook ad agency. Speaker 2: (01:39) That is a little ironic. I didn't even think about that one. Speaker 1: (01:43) True. And this is not a Donald Trump moment where I'm going to say you're fired, but, but I get a ton of questions from doctors on, Hey, who do you use for your Facebook ad agency? And, uh, and so Sam has, has changed and is starting to change the landscape for Facebook adage ad agencies. And I want to get into that in just a minute, but I wanted to. So looking back, um, I just thought of this late, uh, we're, we're recording this podcast in September of 20, 20 labor day just came and went. And we actually opened our practice eight years ago on labor day on Monday. And it, it, it brought back a lot of like, like painful moments in opening a practice. And when we first started, like we had a small, I got a small loan from my dad to, to like get the office built out. And he gave me 50,000 bucks and he said, here's, this is all you're getting and you better use it wisely. And hopefully it'll get some patients. And by the way, this, all this my dad said, uh, my dad was one of those guys that just didn't believe in chiropractic. Anyhow, he goes, and he goes, Andrew, listen, wherever. Right when I open the off, he goes, listen, just make sure when your patients come in, like help, don't completely fix it. So we have to keep coming back over. Speaker 1: (03:04) And that was my dad's strategy to a successful chiropractor business. So, so we had this like money to play with, to open our office. And we didn't have a ton of money for advertising. And, and, uh, like we couldn't, like we didn't have a ton of money. So we had to, we had to go out in the community and find patients. And it was really nerve wracking to me. It was like, we went from like 90 days opening and 60 days and 30 days. And I'm like, Oh my gosh, like we've got to get patients in the door. And so the weekend, that holiday weekend of labor day, we got permission from a, from a health food store to do screenings at the store. And they had two offices, one in the North side of the city, one in the South side. And so on Saturday, I went to one location. Speaker 1: (03:46) My wife went to the other one and we screened for eight hours, which is exhausting. And then, and then the day after that, we had a screening set up at Walmart that we like finagled our way in and two hours into the screening that the manager came up and she's like, yeah, you guys can't do that here. Like you gotta leap. So I kicked out, we got kicked out of our Walmart screening and, uh, we did a craft fair that weekend. So we screamed like, hell, it was like 30 some hours over that weekend. And thank God we had, we had 23 patients signed up new patients, signed up on the books for that week. And we converted like half of those. And so all of a sudden we had new patients, we had revenue. And, um, and I remember in the beginning, like that was like screening was really painful for us. Speaker 1: (04:35) I always felt awkward doing it. I didn't mind going through that pain. Um, cause I knew we would get patients out of it, but it was a lot of work. And for the first two years, we were always doing screening events and live events and talks, wherever we could talk about chiropractic, I would show up and I would get patients from it. And that was actually really good at screening. I just hated it. And for a long time for like, especially the first six months, that's all we did on weekends. We got, um, we got time off on Sunday. We'd go to church, we'd spend the rest of the, you know, the rest of our Sundays, just relaxing and preparing for the week. But we worked Monday, Monday through Friday, Friday afternoons, we were screening. And then Saturday, all Saturday we were doing screenings and events. Speaker 1: (05:15) And when Facebook came along, like Holy cow, we had our weekends back put like weeks instead of doing like six screenings a week, we would do, uh, or a month we would do maybe one or two. And it completely like Facebook completely changed my life in a really good way. And so my wife and I were able to take like short trips and we were able to, you know, kind of pull ourselves away from our, from our practice. And it was like, it was a game changing thing because, because with Facebook, what I realized that if you had really good Facebook ads, it was kind of like doing 24 seven screenings, right. If you had the right ad and, and so that's where, um, you know, where good ad agencies and good copy and offers come in. And so I just wanted to start with that story. Speaker 1: (06:03) And, um, if you could maybe just give us a little bit of a background on what you do and, um, and I'll preface it a little bit. I met you a year and a half ago. I, um, I was, uh, been reading through a bunch of Russell Brunson books and this name kept coming up. He's like, I worked with this chiropractor and this chiropractor ran these funnels and did really well. And I'm like, who the heck is this chiropractor? And then finally he said, one of his books, it's like the chiropractor, dr. Woolner. I'm like, ah, dr. Woolner. So I typed, I typed in dr. Vulner. I'm like this guy has got to know something he's working with Russell Brunson. And I, and I realized I actually been following him for awhile and then signed up for his map event, went up to Idaho. And that's where I met you, uh, dr. Wallner's event. So maybe if you can give us a kind of, a little bit of a background on, on what you do. Speaker 3: (06:52) Yeah. So, uh, you're a good storyteller buddy, by the way. That's a, Speaker 4: (06:57) I, I, you know, I get a visual Speaker 3: (07:00) Of watching you go and do those screenings. And it's really interesting because when I got into the chiropractic niche, I was actually a consultant. Um, I've, I've only, it's a long story. I'll keep it very short, but I've only been an entrepreneur. And so I've owned a lot of businesses and back in like 2000 and I don't know, 2014, 15, somewhere in that 15, I think in that time range, I was thinking about going and doing some consulting and a good friend of mine, Sonny who, dr. Sonic, Gail, who you've met. Um, I was at a birthday party and I said, Hey, I think we're going to go start a business consulting gig. And he said, no, don't do that. I said, well, we didn't know each other that, well, I was like, what are you talking about, man? And he goes, no, come work with me. Speaker 3: (07:47) I do consulting. And so I decided to do that. And I start in working with him. I started to learn how chiropractic works, how your businesses are structured, how to systemize them and, and, you know, just everything it takes to be successful. And one of the things that five years ago, we were teaching folks to do were screenings, and I know the [inaudible] and the anxiety and the stress and all those things that come along with, you know, with doing those. They're very, they're very effective, you know, there's no arguing that, but yeah, with the advent of Facebook and marketing funnels and just different things like that, there's, there's more options for docs to, to grow their practice. So, uh, yeah, we met at the, uh, at, at dr. Wallner's map event and, uh, I've known dr. Woolner for several years. I actually bought his program when I was consulting. Speaker 3: (08:46) Okay. Is his funnel program. And so it's, again, a lot of these little, you know, this spider web of, of people that you meet and, and then what you decide to do with it. And for me, um, I have, uh, you know, the sales and marketing background that I have created over years of being an entrepreneur were pretty extensive. And so I started helping our clients that we were consulting. I started helping them run their ads. And then before very long, I got really good at it. And I started just doing that. And long story short, I teamed up with my partner who is now Jacob, um, Jacob Morris, he and I, um, we're running an agency called twenty-fifth West. And we were doing a very traditional agency model where we would take clients, we would run their Facebook and Google ads. In most cases, those were the two platforms we were offering and we would create campaigns for them. Speaker 3: (09:44) And, uh, so that was kind of, you know, the, the long drawn out version. But today we've kind of, I mean, I'm, I'm, I think that you should always be looking for the future. What's next? What is the, um, you know, what is, what is the future of what you're trying to do? And sometimes that future comes a lot faster than others because, you know, because of events and we had in March, April timeframe, we had a pretty severe event, you know, hit the, hit the world with coronavirus and with coronavirus, we were forced to do something different. Okay. And basically what we ended up doing was innovating ourselves out of a job. Right. Speaker 1: (10:31) Are we get into that? Like, I think I want to, I just want to talk about where I think most doctors are right now with their Facebook ad agencies. And this is, um, this may be my own experience, but maybe you can tell me if this is right or not. So we had a Facebook ad ad agency, and, and like I said, like, I changed our life and we had patients coming in and we have to do any work. And, um, and then after a while, like we noticed that we had less and less leads coming in. And then we would like call her at eight. We would call an agency and say, Hey, it's not like we had 30 yet leads last month. We only had 15 and now we only have five. And so there was like this continual cycle of, um, of like ups and downs with Facebook. Speaker 1: (11:11) And I never knew, I never gave it much thought, but I never knew like, what w why that happened? Was it, was it ad fatigue? Was it Facebook changing their algorithm? Or were we not putting enough? Like, sometimes the solution was, we'll just put more money behind your ad budget and you'll get more people. Yeah. But, but it's like, well, for 500 bucks last month, we got this money. Why can't we get the same people for 500 bucks this month? And so I didn't, I didn't know, like, uh, if there was some like secret sauce or something on the backend that agencies were using to, to create good ads for people. And so I think what some doctors are doing now is they're seeing, you know, when their ads fatigue is that they start jumping around at different ad agencies, which I did like, I'm like, Oh, maybe, maybe this agency, but they'll have a really snappy ad or whatever. And I'd see it. I'm like, well, maybe we'll try this one for, for a few months and see how they do it. And then the same thing would happen. It'd be great for a couple of weeks. And then it would fatigue. And then, and then, and sometimes, and here's a D does that make sense? Speaker 3: (12:12) Yeah. Yes. You're, you're relaying the experience of 90% of the, of the clinics out there. Yes, this is true. Speaker 1: (12:21) And I remember what was frustrating for us was that we really felt like we had a really good dialed in front desk, and we were really quick at responding to ads. And when the ads started to fatigue, more than several times, we had agencies say, well, well, it's probably your front desk. That's why you're not, that's why you're not converting it. I'm like, nah, it's the same looks at the same people. And it's like, well, maybe you're not answering ads quick enough. And it's like, what, what ads would start to fatigue? I would notice agencies start to like, like the low hanging fruit is like, well, blame the client. It's like, if you're irritating and I understand that they were probably working with a lot of clients that had awful front desk and they weren't trained. And they didn't, you know, they answer ads a day late and stuff, but it was frustrating for us. And so that was one of the reasons why we were sort of agency hopping to find like, you know, we were trying to find the magic pill to keep this never ending stream of patients coming in and not have to worry about it. And, um, yeah, so that was, I think a lot of docs are stuck in that because, and that's why they're asking like, Hey, what's what, who are you using for Facebook ads? Cause they're, you know, they have those, those frustrations and pain points. Speaker 3: (13:37) We did a training last week. You and I, and one of the, one of the things that I shared in that training was a 100% true story. And I don't need to throw out names in such a public way right now, but there was a marketer, a digital marketer that created a course that basically sold the idea that, Hey, chiropractors are easy to sell. Okay. And if you just use these ads and these funnels you'll get leads, and then you can just go party. That was, I mean, that was the pitch. And Speaker 1: (14:09) That's a pretty good pitch, you know, Hey, easy money, Speaker 3: (14:14) Party lifestyle. That's a pretty good pitch, but it's not authentic and it's not true. Right. Right. And what you're talking about is, I mean, uh, marketing and, and working with, uh, working with online, working with a client and an agency is a dance and you're right. Not all front desks are created equal the same way that not all agencies are created equal, right. Because when it comes to turning an ad on and, and, you know, turning a funnel on pretty much, I mean, a lot of them will get really good success during that initial, you know, honeymoon phase. Right? The problem is, is the real work starts when you have, you know, a lot of, and there's a lot of different things. It can, it can be ad fatigue and B audience fatigue. It can be just complete neglect, you know, so there's a lot of things that can happen, but it's really the agency's job to deconstruct the problem and say, Hey, well, the problem is, is maybe, um, in fact, we had a problem this week where somebody had been posting a lot of content on their Facebook page about a certain, you know, coven thing that they shouldn't have been. Speaker 3: (15:35) And because of that, their, their account got flagged. And that was their business page. Their business page got flagged what gets flagged with your business page, all of your ad accounts that are connected to that business page. And so obviously this is going to con uh, this is going to affect their performance. So there is that dance, but just to kind of get back to the root cause, you know, there's a lot of, not all of them. I got friends that are in there in this business that are good people doing a good job. Um, but unfortunately there's just, there are because of that one event, that one person, that one digital company there does seem to be a lot of folks in this space that just kind of, you know, they pray on and it's, and docs are getting very wise to, to what's happening. And they may not know where it came from, but they recognize the symptomology. I'm telling you, it came from this one course creator. Uh, he did a very good job of selling this course. So, um, yeah. That's kind of the inception of that cycle that you are discussing. Speaker 1: (16:42) Yeah. Yeah. Like I've had a, you know, we've, we've been through a lot of ad agencies and I noticed that there are agencies that do a great job, especially on like the back end stuff and training offered resources and scripting, and like all the things that it takes to, to have a lead come into your office and kind of come into fruition. And then some agencies that were just awful, like no leads from the beginning, no leads in the end and nothing in between. And one thing I wanted to ask you, do you, and I hear this from doctors occasionally. And it's one concern that I have is like, do you think that Facebook is going to even be relevant in terms of advertising in the near future? Like, is that platform going to be around? Is it going to be, can you still use it effectively for leads? Is it, are we going to have to shift to another platform? Um, and particularly with, um, I've seen some, uh, some issues with docs being able to advertise for regenerative medicine, um, and, and maybe even like tightening down on a certain claims, um, weight, like weight loss as an example as well. What is Speaker 3: (17:50) Your take on that? Well, so there's two questions. So I, the first one is, is Facebook relevant and will it continue to be relevant? So really what we're talking about is where's the attention. Okay. You've got platforms, you've got snap, Snapchat, tick talk, uh, Reddit, uh, Twitter, Facebook, Google ad words. You know, you've got all these different platforms. And when you look at Facebook, Facebook, uh, the, the level of reach you have to understand, it's not just Facebook, it's also Instagram. It's also like different articles, different places throughout the, uh, throughout the internet. There's a lot of places where Facebook's ad platform gets reach. Okay. And the number of active monthly users I still think is, I mean, I think they have like 2.2 billion active monthly users. So I think, I think it's still relevant now what the future looks like. I mean, guaranteed, you know, tick talk has definitely made a surge in the last, um, in the last year, you know, you didn't hear much about ticktock before a year ago, but now it's making a surge. Speaker 3: (19:01) And so I'm sure, you know, that's, that's the cool part about living in a venture capitalist economy is there's always new things coming and whether or not Facebook is relevant three, four or five years from now, doesn't really matter so long as you understand what we're going after. And that is attention, right? What is, what is the best way to, to get attention and then to, and I would say Facebook is relevant as it's ever been, if not more. So, especially with the audiences that we're seeing. Cause cause the audience, the, the 35 to 65 seven, you know, the older audiences, they're not going on to Snapchat, they're not, they're staying put on these platforms. Um, so relevance, I think definitely it's, it's relevant. It will continue to be as far as terms and policies and just what will be allowed. That is a moving target. Speaker 3: (20:00) Right. Uh, but you know, so there's some things that they're never going to really want you to do. They're never going to want it to seem spammy. One of the problems that there's a, that there's issues with weight loss is because the history of weight loss, marketing, you know, it's very spammy. It's very, everything is before and after everything is very, Hey, you're going to be losing a hundred pounds in seven days. So there's a lot of hype behind these things. And so really at the end of the day, there's not a condition that we don't Mark it. It's just, you have to understand the approach to take, right? So for example, you talk about weight loss. We don't promote weight loss in the typical sense of, uh, you know, these, you know, crazy results with, in fact, we don't even hardly talk about results. Speaker 3: (20:52) We talk, we, we lead with new technology. A lot of times when we're talking about weight loss stuff, we talk about red light therapy or a true like body contouring or things along those lines. So what new technological advances are there available to users? That's going to hook them, right? Cause you got to hook their attention with something. And um, so long as it's not the same thing, then, then you'll be okay. Right. So, um, I do think that even though they do tighten down on what you can and cannot say, and even like, if you put an ad in that gets approved in one market, it might get disapproved in the exact same market, but at a different clinic, this is just part of scalability. This is how big the platform is. And we see ads that get disapproved and we just hit manual requests, you know, and they'll get approved five minutes later because they're like, okay, we just want to test you, make sure a person's there. So I think definitely, I mean, marketing for chronic pain conditions, uh, doesn't seem to have gotten any more difficult. Um, I think we've been pretty much in the same place for several years that we have been, you know, that we will be, I don't see anything changing there either. Speaker 1: (22:09) No, I know like sometimes doctors tend to focus on like the platform itself, like the algorithms and picking the right demographics and those things I know are really important, but I think even more important than that are just the fundamentals of sales. Yes. This is like, this is what initially attracted me to you. Was that was that you weren't talking about like the technology, not, I don't mean offer technology, but like the technology of how you're delivering your message, you were talking on the message. And I w I wanted you to, I think this is like, forget all like the platforms and patients, dream and agencies and all that. This is what I think really makes you unique in your space is, well, first of all, I, you understand our industry really well. The psychology of it, what patients are looking for, what doctors are looking for. But I want you to talk for a minute, if you will, about just good old fashioned salesmanship. If you look at old ads, like looking at an old ad for knee, like knee pain, like from 50 years ago, it's not that much different than an ad today. Cause it's like people have knee pain and they want to get rid of it. But I wanted you to maybe like talk about like what copywriting is, what sales is and what maybe the differences between that and it, and an offer in the clinic. And like how, like what some of the psychology that you use that goes into to your ads. Speaker 3: (23:35) Yeah. A ship and just the communication part of advertising. That is thing that I love most about everything, you know, coming up with concepts and angles is really important. But I think just, I mean, let's frame this around a problem that is very common. And so w I'll I'll have from time to time, people come and say, Hey, I want to promote, I was giving you an example. I want to promote leaky gut. Right. We were talking about this briefly before, uh, the podcast had a CA a client say, Hey, I would really like to focus on leaky gut and do you have something you can do for that? And I understand then the, the motivation of the question, but it is the source of all advertising problems, which is it's an inward looking out and stuff, have an outward looking in. And what I mean by that, that is stop thinking about what your, what you want. Speaker 3: (24:33) Like, I want leaky gut. So maybe I want, you know, autoimmune patients, you know, I want to get a lot of autoimmune patients stuff, thinking about what you want and stop, start thinking about the audience and what they want. Okay. So my question, my response back to my doctor was what is the condition that we're marketing? What are we going out? As soon as you start to identify and deconstruct that problem, then you can really start to frame that the conversation around providing new solutions. So I like, I like to make sure that we're focusing on a problem okay. That we have some kind of actual solution. And then when you're talking about, um, copywriting, you know, the more I learn about copywriting, the more I learn, the more I, I understand that copywriting is just about like unique ideas. Can you put it an idea in somebody's head that they'll say, Oh, I hadn't considered that before. Speaker 3: (25:35) Right. Um, I was, uh, I was writing an ad the other day and I don't have, I have, I have notes around my desk and w we were talking about level light therapy and in the context of helping people with neuropathy, and there was a couple of interesting facts, like, uh, I don't know if you knew this, but low level light therapy has been proven to help, uh, in about 97% of neuropathy cases in like dramatically reducing, um, symptomology. Right. I didn't know. Uh, and so that's, that's a pretty interesting data point, but then we got to start framing that around an idea. So if we hook them with that, we've got to say, well, well, what makes, what makes LLT low light therapy? What makes that so powerful? Like, what is, what is the concept? What is the idea, right. This whole idea of increasing blood flow or, um, you know, is it, uh, I, when I'm in deep co you know, copywriting phase, I'll get angiogenesis, is that right? Speaker 1: (26:47) Yeah. Making new blood vessels look at that Speaker 3: (26:50) Angiogenesis. And so, and what angiogenesis then leads to. And so if you take people down to these like Speaker 1: (26:57) Root solutions, then they'll extrapolate on their own Speaker 3: (27:02) And say, Oh, that's how you solve my neuropathy. And then all of a sudden, in their mind, you gave a visual possibility, right? So when you're talking about ads, you want to have something that hooks their attention. You want to have an idea. It's not about the individual words. It's about the idea that you frame that's different than what everybody else is doing. Okay. This is another reason why I'm in weight loss. If you talk about weight loss, okay. Just eat less. Or, you know, once an idea gets popular, like intermittent fasting is very popular right now. You're not going to become the intermittent fasting guy anymore. That that concept has sailed, right. Speaker 1: (27:46) Whoever created, who created that, by the way, um, do you know? No. Do you, Speaker 3: (27:52) No, I don't. I mean, the same thing with Kito, you know, it's like, uh, there was a guy, uh, there was a guy in Joe Rogan's podcast that was a KIDO guy, and that was a very novel. So these are all concepts and ideas they're going after the same result. Right. So when it comes to copywriting, copywriting is more of a creative, internal thought process where you look at a, at a audiences problem and find a way to just say, Hey, here's a solution you've never considered before. Right. And what, how can you package it to where they'll, they'll, uh, you know, they'll, they'll believe you and they'll want to take the net or they'll want to learn more. Speaker 1: (28:35) So that that'll make sense. So how do you, how are you taking that knowledge that you have on, on salesmanship and then actually making that work for, for doctors? So obviously, I mean, you're, you're, you see clients all across the country. I think you have a really good because of the position you're in. Do you have a really good idea of what types of services docs are offering? Um, what type of, of ads work and what, how they, and if they don't work, but how are you, like, how are you taking that and putting it into a doc, seeing more, more patients in their clinic every week? Speaker 3: (29:09) Yeah, that's a good question. So, um, so I'll give you an example. Um, about two and a half, three years ago, we were having just, I mean, marketing for STEM cells was so easy. Cause in and of itself was a unique and novel idea that was like, Oh cool. STEM cells. Yeah. Replace know that whole Speaker 1: (29:30) Sold itself. Yeah. Speaker 3: (29:32) But the old phrase, a tactic known as a tactic blown. So everybody comes in and now you're just, like you said, it's red ocean. You're a, me too. Yeah. Speaker 1: (29:42) You're, you're now an intermittent fasting world. Speaker 3: (29:44) That's exactly right. And so what do you do? Well, I had a, I had a client that we were doing a web call like this, and he had in the background, he had like a neon track. You know, what a neon track is. Yeah. Speaker 1: (29:57) Yeah. We have clients that use those they're also. Yes. Speaker 3: (30:00) So he had a neon track. I'm like, Hey, what is that thing? And he goes, Oh, that's called a neon track. Any, any had like, I'm a nurse, not a nurse, but you know, an assistant sit down in it. And I was, I knew immediately what it was. She sat down in it strapped her knee and I'm like, Oh, that pulls the knee apart. I didn't necessarily know how that, you know, help people with me knee pain, but I'm like, dude, I can Mark it that I know I can market that because it was a unique approach. So I'm always on the lookout for things like that. Okay. Um, whether that's, uh, you know, contour, light, pulse wave therapy, um, Oh, to therapy, different things like this, things that it just, when you look at him, you're like, Oh, it's curious. There's some curiosity there. And when you frame it right around a problem, it really has pole. Right. And so I've, I've become really, I hate to say I've become really good because that sounds conceited. He's conceited. Speaker 1: (31:01) I forgive you arrogance. Exactly. You know, Speaker 3: (31:05) I just, I feel like maybe I'm not the best at it, but I feel like when I, when I see something like that, like the neon track or something akin to that, I can create a framework that will get attention and make people want to take action. And so I've just taken that to anywhere in the chronic pain space, uh, the, the wellness community. And I'm always looking for little, little things like that and, you know, create more offers, test them. And they tend inside of that framework. They tend to work pretty well. Speaker 1: (31:40) We need to get neon track to sponsor this podcast. Speaker 3: (31:43) Those guys are awesome. Ergo flex. Uh, they, they did, they did what we should. Uh, but, uh, they're awesome. Their products are awesome. Their owners are awesome. They're just good people. So I can't say enough good things about that company. Speaker 1: (31:57) Interesting. You bring that up. I was just talking to a client this morning and he uses a neon track, knee compression in his therapy, and we've positioned it. Here's one of our tricks by the way, docs we've, we've positioned this machine. What a knee pain patient comes in. They go through an exam, they see the nurse practitioner. And then before they leave, we put them on knee decompression. And I was going over stats with a Dr. Day. He goes, he goes, you know what? He goes, I might hit, I don't know if I want to use this need on track machine anymore because I put patients on and on day one, Speaker 3: (32:27) They feel like Speaker 1: (32:29) Completely corrected their problem. They don't come back anymore. It's drawing is day one to day two conversions because this neon track was like, quote, fixing the knee problem. And, uh, I'm like, well, you know, he, he wasn't pre-framing it at all, but, but the machine works like I've. Yeah. He's, he's, he's ruined a couple of patients that way. Speaker 3: (32:50) What's cool about that is like, if you give somebody an experience, as long as, like you said, you have to frame out, Hey, what's happening. This is where education comes in. You know what I mean? Um, Dan Kennedy, uh, the late Dan Kennedy, he talked about, he actually consulted a lot with chiropractors. I don't know if you knew that I did it. Yeah. Yeah. Um, he, um, he talked basically education is the key to closing, right? Like, like the right type of education. And so I found that again, like if you're doing the neon track, just tell people what's happening. Right. If you educate them and then they match their subjective experience with the education you're giving, Speaker 1: (33:30) They're going to convert. I'm going to say yes, that doctor is telling me the truth. It's a tool. Speaker 3: (33:35) Oh man. If you do it right, it can be a huge tool. Speaker 1: (33:38) Yeah. I actually just, this morning created a script for that. Like how to, how to, cause we didn't have it. And I realized that like, some people just do it naturally, like, alright, you get on the machine and here's, what's going to do, here's what you should expect from the machine. And some doctors is like putting them on and not really explaining it. And then they would, you know, the patient had a bad result or like, Oh, that didn't work. I'm not coming back. Or they have a good result. Wow. That worked. I fixed that. They fixed me. I don't need to come back. But they were doing, they weren't, like you said, they weren't doing education. They weren't pre-framing. And um, that's yeah, that was a problem. I gotta call ergo flex and podcast sponsorships. They're great. People like, yeah, that's cool. I've sold a lot of their machines, their clients. Speaker 1: (34:19) So I'm like, dude, I don't care. They're great. They're helping me help people. It's a win win. Yeah, for sure. For sure. So I want to get into, now we talked about this a little bit in the beginning of the podcast on, on what you're doing to really, to change the Facebook ad agency business. I mean, when you, when you first told me this concept about patients Treme and explaining what it did, I'm like, man, you're going to like, you're going to put a lot of Facebook ad agencies out of business because you don't need them anymore. And maybe, and maybe I'm like overstepping that maybe that's an exaggeration, but, um, if you would just walk through like what you've been up to and on the, on the platform side and what, and like what you've been up to in the last few months or years, or however long this has taken you imagine it's been a bear to create, but what, what are you doing to change the Facebook ad agency business? Yeah. Um, yeah, Speaker 3: (35:19) So it it's interesting. I was a, at the beginning of the podcast, I said, we kind of have innovated ourselves out of a job. Right. And that's very true. I mean, we, we had, we had clients that were in this in one, you know, we're in the traditional agency side and now they're, they've kind of into this automated side. And so what happened was, I mean, my, my company's dynamic is I focus, like you said, I really focus on the messaging on the concepts, on the ideas that I feel if presented to the right people will convert them. Okay. And that's what I've been doing for years. So several years. And then Jacob is more of the, you know, he's a lot better at talking to computers than he is to talking to people. And so we're very yin yang and, and he'd been consulting with a development company and they had been working on these different ideas and platforms. Speaker 3: (36:18) And one of the things that they came up with was how to basically launch and manage campaigns without a person having to get involved so long as you had a couple of ingredients, right? It's not like, Hey, it's just gonna, it's not AI per se. Right. You had to give it proven ads and then proven marketing funnels. As long as you have those two elements, it could launch those in a strategic way. And then it could manage performance on the back end. And it just so happens. We had that right. We had those, we had those ingredients. And so we actually teamed up with this company and, and we changed the entire way of, of managing campaigns to where we uploaded stuff. We know, work into our new software. And now it basically does the job of an agencies. And it does have a couple of drawbacks. Speaker 3: (37:13) I mean, it's awesome. It's amazing. Uh, it makes it so you can launch your own ads and we say doing just three clicks and it really is, you know, there's three different clicks. You click what condition you want to market. You click, uh, what your daily budget is. And then you click publish campaign. And that's crazy. There's no getting in Facebook, there's no choosing or, or writing ad copy. And you know, there's, there's no, it's just all done for you. Right. And so we created this thing now. It doesn't. So the limitations are, I mean, custom, you know, so there is space always. I don't have a beef against agencies. I think there's some that do not need to be in the agency, in the agency business a hundred percent, you know, but I've got some good friends that I think are great. People offer a good service. Speaker 3: (38:08) And when they have a good fit with a client, it works and they do a good job. And when it comes to like custom, you know, custom stuff, whatever it is, you know, we, we now are able to offer what we're doing at a really low cost, but you're using basically templates campaigns. Okay. And so they're done for you. You, don't got to think about, and you just got to think, Hey, what is, I want knee decompression patients. We've been talking about, you know, the neon track. I want knee decompression patients, you choose needy compression patients. You tell your daily budget and click publish, and then boom, it'll go out and start advertising and, uh, you know, generating new leads. So it's kind of hard to, it feels like it's, I feel like sometimes when I articulate, I try to explain it to people. They're like, wait a minute. So it sounds too good to be true. Like you, listen, it's not, it's not all sunshine. And, and uh, you know, what does it sunshine and lollipops or what Speaker 1: (39:11) Sunshine, rainbows unicorns. One of those. Speaker 3: (39:13) Yeah. It's not all that. I mean, there's some down again, you know, we, we, uh, we're, we don't do custom campaigns. And so, uh, if you want to change the offer from $47 for this thing to $97, that's not something we can do. Um, but it's offering, I mean, it's, it's growing quickly, which we're excited about. And, um, it's offering a really unique solution. And I guess the crux of it is it puts the power in the control of your advertising back in your hands. You choose when you run ads, you choose. If you want to turn them off, if you want to switch from needy compression to spinal decompression, you choose to do that. So I don't know. I don't know if, if that, if, if I left any holes, but that's kind of the gist of what it's doing. Speaker 1: (39:58) I like that. Cause what I think what it allows doctors to do is say, all right. Yeah. Like let's, let's pick a condition, whether it's back pain or knee pain or regenerative medicine. And Hey, Mary, at the front desk, let's do a Facebook ad this week. Let's put 300 bucks behind it and see how it does. I like the fact that you can delegate that to somebody without having to call up an agency, tweak things. There's some, let some time lag there, but also you can delegate that to your staff to do for you. And the other thing I didn't think about, I just kind of crossed my mind is that also there's some, I think when you have a doctor or an office app actually going in and clicking the buttons at hitting, like start on a campaign, there's a little bit more ownership over that campaign that, alright, we just move some money over and we hit go. Speaker 1: (40:43) And I think there's a little bit more, um, maybe willingness to track their stats. Cause I know I'm guilty that guys, like we've had ed ad agencies and we just give them a monthly ad agent, a monthly ad budget and their agency fee. And we just let it go. And we're not like really tracking our, your ad spend and our cost per our cost per lead. And I think by doing this, it may actually get doctors to actually do their stats and figure out like, well, we spent 600 bucks this month. How many new patients did we get in from that ad and start to play with their ad numbers. So I liked it. I liked getting the doctor involved with it without having to know how to run a Facebook ad. Speaker 3: (41:21) Yeah. Right. And the cool thing about it is, you know, you have that there's so patient stream really is two macro components. One is lead gen lead, lead generation, and then the other is lead management. So the lead gen is a proprietary tool. We created it. It's ours, it's nobody else has it. And then the lead management tool is, you know, there's a lot of lead management tools out there and things that our people are using. Um, but what we've been able to do with our lead management tool is we've been able to plug the two of them together. So they become basically one. And so when your campaigns start running, they plug into prebuilt followup campaigns, you know, and, uh, we had one user, um, Michelle Sims, hi Michelle, if you're listening, I love Michelle. Since she, she and her husband, Scott they're out of Nacadocious Texas say that one, that's kind of a mouthful, but, uh, she came on, she was one of our first pilot users and she's super smart, really good. Speaker 3: (42:25) And she started using the platform immediately. She's a sharp lady and she knew what she was doing because she had used other products like it before. And she went from spending three hours a day in lead chasing a reactivation efforts and all those things to spending less than an hour in a day and booking their calendar out for like during the whole COVID thing, it's still kind of happening for three weeks and they're booked out three weeks that had never happened to them. And that was happening in the midst of COVID. And that's just because she understood that it, it's not just about lead generation. There's also a lot to management side, but management is hard. It's a lot of work, you know? I mean, when you guys first started doing Facebook ads, I'm guessing you got like a spreadsheet of ads or maybe just a single notifications. Is that how you guys did it? Speaker 1: (43:24) Yeah. Yeah. Very manual, very manual. And it's a pain in the butt. It is not only to keep up with and be, have the discipline to keep up with it, but then also to follow up, to follow up with it. And then how do you follow up with it? The numbers. Yeah, that's the, that's the hard part. And that's, I know from experience and working with lots and lots of docs, that's what they're not doing. Either don't know how to do it. Or, um, they, they just, they get tied up with other things. Speaker 3: (43:53) It's the habits, you know, it's our habits, our habits are okay. I know I got a new lead. I know I got to call it, but 48% of leads never get called the first time. So 48%. Okay. And then this is the scarier stat, 80% of your sales come between the fifth to the 12th contact. So if you start doing some math, think about the amount of leads you're going to have to generate to get one patient. If you're not willing to do the followup, you know, the math starts to get really, really scary. But if you, Speaker 1: (44:28) I have a tool that will help you in that, that we'll do a lot of it for you manage it, reach out to him, Speaker 3: (44:35) People and people are now reaching out to you. You can take a job, that's a full time position and reduce it to again, you know, less than an hour a day, if done well, if done properly, Speaker 1: (44:46) Man, that's crazy. That's solving such a huge issue for clamp, for offices, for clinics. Yeah. That's amazing. We're excited about it. You know, I mean, we've gotten Speaker 3: (44:58) This whole thing started in, um, you know, right around the beginning of the whole Corona nonsense, nonsense. I don't know if anybody is taking offense to nonsense, but a little bit of nonsense. Okay. I think we can all agree. Yeah. Speaker 1: (45:12) You're talking to chiropractors mainly, so. Okay. Very good. Speaker 3: (45:16) Um, and I mean, we've got now about 100, not about, I think we're at 99 users today. And so, you know, maybe tomorrow, maybe by then today we'll be at 100, who knows, but it's growing really fast. We really care about our users. Um, and that's not a sales pitch. I mean, I've got a, a Facebook group and I go in there every single day and I'm either posting or I'm seeing if people have questions and we've got awesome support. Speaker 1: (45:45) Um, it's really Speaker 3: (45:46) Exciting. It's a lot of fun. Um, and I think, you know, I think it's only gonna get better. And again, we're adding, like you said, so we, we do a lot of conditions. I love going after the ad angles. That's what I mean. I like helping people and talking, but if you think in the, in the creative space, what do I enjoy doing is coming up with new offers. I enjoy coming up with new offers. And so, um, that's, that's kinda my role and we've got a bunch of, you know, different conditions that people can target immediately just by, just by plugging into it. So we're excited, you know, to, Speaker 1: (46:25) So I know that, you know, with anybody, like there are certain clients that, that you're like, Oh yeah, I can really help this doctor. And there are certain doctors like, yeah, this probably isn't for you. Like, if you can speak to the doctors listening to this right now, like who is your ideal client? So if someone calls you and says, Hey Sam, can you help me with XYZ? And you're like, check, check, check. Like what, what would that, like, what are your kind of ideal clients that are like sort of home run clients? Yeah. So, um, you know, Speaker 3: (46:52) There's, there's always the business owner that wants, um, wants to save money and saving money. Isn't the best reason to do things, right? You, you need to have a fit and we're not a fit for everybody. When you, when you speak, we've actually, we had a, some new members sign on within the last two Speaker 1: (47:12) Weeks and then cancel. And he said, Oh, I thought this was more, um, Speaker 3: (47:17) You know, more hands on and hands on from a perspective of, we were going to get in and click, you know, launch campaign. Speaker 1: (47:24) I thought we made it easy enough, but you know, some people, they, they just want it done for, they really want to pay the Speaker 3: (47:30) Money and just have it done. Okay. There is, there's definitely space for agencies to get in and do that service. We are not an agency. We are a software. So you need to log in. You need, well, you need to turn your computer on. You need to log in and you need to, you know, be willing to get your hands into the system, right. You need to be willing to, you know, if somebody is, is texting, Hey, can I learn more about your neuropathy program, answer them, you know, so that's a, that's a big piece to this. Um, and then the other thing is we are somewhat limited by, um, varying our offers. You know, we want offers that go into patient stream. We want them to be proven, okay. So if you say, Hey, can we try and offer that this, that, and the other, first of all, if it's not a good offer, we're not going to try it. Speaker 3: (48:25) You know, and we have kind of a track record of knowing what will work and what doesn't work. Um, if it is a good offer and you have a track record of it running in, you know, in your clinic and, you know, I'm always excited and willing to look at that type of thing. Okay. So, because we're limited by, you know, just time and the amount of people we have that create creating an offer that works is an art. Okay. It's not something I can delegate to somebody it's something that me and my team we have to do. And so we are, um, you know, some of the functional space, so diabetes and thyroid conditions, um, those were kind of more difficult because there's so many varies varying approaches to solving those problems, right? If there's uniformity, we can create an offer that works, um, you know, event marketing is great for, um, for diabetes and thyroid conditions, autoimmune conditions, things like that. Speaker 3: (49:25) And I think once things start to open up for events, again, that those will be a bigger part of the platform. Um, but anyways, so we are limited by some conditions. We've got a lot of great ones. If you're a chiropractor, we've got plenty of stuff for you. If you're an integrated clinic, we've got plenty of joint conditions, um, you know, um, body contouring, things like that and neuropathy, um, things along those lines. So it's not a, you know, it's not a silver bullet. We didn't create a magical wand that we're just giving to everybody there is work involved. Um, we want you to get in and get educated, get involved with our group and with our community. We want you to get some marketing and sales skills and, uh, we give you a lot of training. And I mean, we do three trainings every single week, uh, between me and the staff. That's a weekly basis. And we're, we're doing that because there's a machine that runs people's ads. So instead of focusing on that, we can focus on the people and just really see, Hey, anybody who's willing, we can bring your game up and we can do it quick. So basically, yeah, Speaker 1: (50:32) You have this computer running everything, and now you've got to get out of the house and find something to do. So you're just training the heck out of doctors, right? Yeah, man, Speaker 3: (50:40) You know, it's funny cause um, we do three trainings. Two of them are pretty much, um, my, uh, my, our trainer, Heather, I'm sure she gets bored, but they're the same training almost every week. And they're just making sure that people have foundational, um, understanding and utility of the platform, uh, different things. And then mine is, you know, whatever I want it to be. And it's usually marketing and sales tactics and, or funnel tactics or whatever it is. Uh, so I enjoy doing it. It's, it's, it's a lot of fun. So it's fun. Yeah. I mean, I get to get out of the house and not focus on the stuff that is no fun. And I get to focus on the stuff that is fun. Speaker 1: (51:19) That's awesome, man. That's awesome. Well, yeah, you're, uh, you're, you're combining like really good, I think offers an ad's and, and really good technology. And I think, yeah, man, I'm really curious to see how this is going to play out in the Facebook ad sphere in chiropractic, because it's so much the wild West right now. And you have, you don't really know. I think docs have a tough time, um, knowing who's doing who's good and who's bad and they hop around and, and hopefully this will give some kind of, uh, some continuity to what, what doctors perceive as a highly variable form of advertising. And I'm excited for you. I'm excited for your clients, uh, to be able to sort of somewhat automate their ads and, and, uh, and do it in a way that, uh, you know, it doesn't break the bank and not having to spend, you know, two, three, four, $8,000 in Facebook ads, ad agency fees and get some more money in their pocket at the end of the day, which is important. Speaker 3: (52:17) That's very important. Yeah, no, we're excited. I think some, like I said, I'm not against the agencies and I think by us offering the service, well, what will happen is some, you know, some innovation on their part, you know, some, some new solutions to different things. You know, I mean, how many people are focusing on, on physical mail anymore or, Speaker 1: (52:38) Or YouTube ads, there's hardly any, Speaker 3: (52:39) Anybody focusing on these things, you know, um, and doctors need them, you know what I mean, doctors need these, these different avenues for attention. So I, I think it's going to be, um, even if we were to take a huge swath, which we're not trying to ruin anybody's business, we're trying to help. Uh, and, but I think what it will do is just elevate everybody else's game. And if we can help your business get more, uh, you know, have, uh, get more new patients and grow and do it at a lower cost. I think that's a good thing to do. Yeah. Yeah. Speaker 1: (53:16) I mean, it's just a natural progression of technology and, and, and services advancing and becoming more efficient and better at what you do. And yeah. Yeah. That's awesome, man. Well, thank you for your, for your time. And you know, I was really excited to have you on the podcast. I don't have a whole lot of guests come on. Um, but I wanted to have you come on, first of all, so people can see how great of a bald head you have. Uh, you have like the perfect bald head. There's no debts. My wife told me other day, she's like, you better not lose your hair cause you would not look good. And maybe while I'm growing my hair out, like you never know until you actually do it. It's a gamble. It is a gamble. I remember when I first did it, I was like, Oh boy, but it worked out. Speaker 1: (54:06) So yeah, no, but I have my hair massive. I have ears that stick out to call me elf. I got, I'm still self conscious about yours. So if I go bulk, Oh boy, what a bunch of jerks. Those people were. I'm sure. You'll look great. Bald. If you ever come onto the team, I'll stick with hair for now. And if I have to work when it happens, there you go. Awesome, man. Well, Sam, thank you so much. Oh, and by the way, if people listening, if you want to know more about patient stream, what it can do, if this makes sense to you, what is your, what's the best way to connect with you? Yeah. So Speaker 2: (54:48) Just go to our website, which is my patient story. Speaker 1: (54:50) I mean.com, check it out. I mean, we've got, you know, we've got a trace and video of kind of how it works with that emotion on it. Um, if you go to the top, there's a pricing button. You can kind of dive more into the pricing and stuff, but yeah, my patients stream.com. Awesome. We'll go check it out. Docs my patient stream.com. Sam, thanks so much for being on here today and giving us your, uh, your knowledge and your time. I really appreciate it. And uh, yeah. Thanks man. Uh, and thanks guys for tuning into another episode of the simplified integration podcast. We hope you found this beneficial and we'll see you on the next episode. Adios. Speaker 2: (55:30) Hey innovators, thanks for listening to the simplified integration podcast fact that you're listening tells me that you're like me, someone who loves simplicity and the truth is those who embrace simplicity are some of the greatest innovators. So hope you got a ton of value from what we covered on today's episode. Be sure to subscribe and share with other docs that you feel could benefit from greater sophistication through simplification and innovation. If you've got specific questions that you'd like answered on this podcast, or you've got specific topics that you'd like me to discuss, just shoot me an email at info@integrationsecrets.com that's info@integrationsecrets.com.

In this interview Lisa talks to Dr Tim Ewer an integrated medical practitioner about his approach to medicine some of the complementary therapies he uses besides conventional allopathic medicine and what exciting research is happening around the world - they get into everything from laser therapy to light therapy to hyperbaric oxygen therapy and beyond.   Dr Tim concentrates on individual and personalised  patient care and combines the best of current western medical practices with evidence-based traditional and complementary medicines and practices. Integrative medicine takes into account the physical, psychological, social and spiritual wellbeing of the person with the aim of using the most appropriate and safe evidence-based treatments.   Lisa sees this integrated approach and open minded attitude that is constantly looking at the latest research and technologies and that focuses on the root causes and on optimal health rather than disease as being the way of the future. Dr Tim's Bio in brief  Dr Tim Ewer (MB ChB, MMedSc, MRCP, FRACP, FRNZCGP, DCH, DRCOG, Dip Occ Med, FACNEM) is vocationally qualified as a physician and general practitioner. Tim has been working as a specialist in integrative medicine for the last 30 years, before which he was a hospital physician for 10 years after gaining his medical degree and specialist qualifications in the UK.   Dr Tim's website  https://teora.co.nz/   We would like to thank our sponsors for this show:   For more information on Lisa Tamati's programs, books and documentaries please visit www.lisatamati.com   For Lisa's online run training coaching go to https://www.lisatamati.com/page/running/ Join hundreds of athletes from all over the world and all levels smashing their running goals while staying healthy in mind and body.   Lisa's Epigenetics Testing Program https://www.lisatamati.com/page/epigenetics/ measurement and lifestyle stress data, that can all be captured from the comfort of your own home   For Lisa's Mental Toughness online course visit: https://www.lisatamati.com/page/mindsetu-mindset-university/   Lisa's third book has just been released. It's titled "Relentless - How A Mother And Daughter Defied The Odds" Visit: https://relentlessbook.lisatamati.com/ for more Information   ABOUT THE BOOK: When extreme endurance athlete, Lisa Tamati, was confronted with the hardest challenge of her life, she fought with everything she had. Her beloved mother, Isobel, had suffered a huge aneurysm and stroke and was left with massive brain damage; she was like a baby in a woman's body. The prognosis was dire. There was very little hope that she would ever have any quality of life again. But Lisa is a fighter and stubborn. She absolutely refused to accept the words of the medical fraternity and instead decided that she was going to get her mother back or die trying. This book tells of the horrors, despair, hope, love, and incredible experiences and insights of that journey. It shares the difficulties of going against a medical system that has major problems and limitations. Amongst the darkest times were moments of great laughter and joy. Relentless will not only take the reader on a journey from despair to hope and joy, but it also provides information on the treatments used, expert advice and key principles to overcoming obstacles and winning in all of life's challenges. It will inspire and guide anyone who wants to achieve their goals in life, overcome massive obstacles or limiting beliefs. It's for those who are facing terrible odds, for those who can't see light at the end of the tunnel. It's about courage, self-belief, and mental toughness. And it's also about vulnerability... it's real, raw, and genuine. This is not just a story about the love and dedication between a mother and a daughter. It is about beating the odds, never giving up hope, doing whatever it takes, and what it means to go 'all in'. Isobel's miraculous recovery is a true tale of what can be accomplished when love is the motivating factor and when being relentless is the only option.   Here's What NY Times Best Selling author and Nobel Prize Winner Author says of The Book: "There is nothing more powerful than overcoming physical illness when doctors don't have answers and the odds are stacked against you. This is a fiercely inspiring journey of a mother and daughter that never give up. It's a powerful example for all of us." —Dr. Bill Andrews, Nobel Prize Winner, author of Curing Aging and Telomere Lengthening. "A hero is someone that refuses to let anything stand in her way, and Lisa Tamati is such an individual. Faced with the insurmountable challenge of bringing her ailing mother back to health, Lisa harnessed a deeper strength to overcome impossible odds. Her story is gritty, genuine and raw, but ultimately uplifting and endearing. If you want to harness the power of hope and conviction to overcome the obstacles in your life, Lisa's inspiring story will show you the path." —Dean Karnazes, New York Times best selling author and Extreme Endurance Athlete.   Transcript of the Podcast:   Speaker 1: (00:01) Welcome to pushing the limits. The show that helps you reach your full potential with your host. Lisa Tamati brought to you by Lisatamati.com Speaker 2: (00:12) Well, hi everyone. And welcome back to pushing the limits. It's fantastic to have you this week. I have dr. Tim Ewer, who has an integrated medical practitioner and physician who is based on the beautiful region of in the South Island of New Zealand. And Dr. Tim came to my attention because he has a really an amazing hyperbaric facility in this area. He used to work at the Christchurch hospitals and he's a hyperbaric trying to doctor he's also does a lot of complimentary and integrated medical approaches. So looking at everything from Eastern medicine through to, you know, acupuncture through to laser therapy. And in this conversation today, we have a good real in depth. Talk about where, you know, things are going some of the greatest and latest research and technologies that are coming on stream and some of the exciting developments and his approach to healing people and helping people. Speaker 2: (01:09) I just like to remind you, before I hand over to Dr. Tim my book relentless is now available in stores right throughout New Zealand. It's also available worldwide on Amazon, on audio books. It's in my website at lisatamati.com. I'd love you to go and check that out. And the book is titled relentless. And as the story of bringing my mum back after a mess of aneurysm and being told that she would never do anything again, and this was our journey back, it's a really insightful book that looks at the mindset of overcoming massive challenges. And I really love you to go and read that and to share that with your networks as well. Lastly, before I go, I'd like you to also follow me on Instagram. I'm quite active on Instagram and on my YouTube channel as well. Have over 600 videos on the YouTube channel and including a whole lot of my documentaries that I made from my beaches around the world. If you want to have a look at the YouTube channel that's just it just search for Lisa Tamati on YouTube, and that will come up and on Instagram, it's @lisatamati right now over to Dr. Tim Ewer and of the mapper health center in mapper. Speaker 2: (02:23) Well, hi, everyone. Welcome back to the show this week, I have a special guest, dr. Tim Ewer, Dr. Tim is sitting down and mapper and the views of DePaul sort of Nelson area. How you doing dr. Tim Speaker 3: (02:36) Very well. Thank you strangely a rainy day to day, but that's probably the rest of New Zealand a bit rainy. And normally it's always sunny here. Speaker 2: (02:46) Very sunny place. I was just saying I used to live down there for a few months when I was picking apples back in my young years, and it was hard work, but I'm very a beautiful area to live in. So yeah, you live in a piece of paradise doctor you are as an integrated medical professional and has a hyperbaric clinic down down that way. I don't want it to get dr. tim To talk to, I don't know if we have a doctor, Tim doctor, you are, what would you prefer? I've got to go back to share a little bit about the work that you do and talk about traumatic brain injury in particular as an area that is obviously my interest with my mum's story. So can you give us a little bit of background, your background and how you got into doing what you're doing and the integrative and hyperbaric side of things? Speaker 3: (03:41) Sure. I guess my story from that point of view, start it off. I'm originally from England. So I trained in England at one of the English universities. And even when I finished my training and I'd come out with distinctions and all of those sorts of things I thought there must be more to what medicine's about or what health is about. Let's say than what I have been told. And ever since then, I've been looking to find other ways to, to improve people's wellbeing. So I continued on with my specialist training became what's called a specialist physician. But at the same time, I would sneak off at weekends and go to the London college of acupuncture and learned acupuncture. And I learned medical hypnosis, and I ended up studying nutrition and some homeopathy and a variety of different things, including bioenergetic medicines over the years, of course I spent a bit of time working in hospital as a specialist. Speaker 3: (04:45) And that's actually where I came across hyperbaric medicine. That was in Christchurch where they had a big hospital. I was working in the hospital as a specialist and they had a big hyperbaric chamber there. So I spent seven years helping to run that we did it free and we spent our weekends or nighttime sometimes helping people with the Benz and carbon monoxide poisoning and all sorts of things like that. And at that point, I had a little bit of an existential crisis and decided that I wanted to leave the hospital side and develop my own integrative clinic, which I did. So we're going back 20 or more years now. Wow. And I moved up to this beautiful area and now in, and found a little place to work from and thought, well, if everything goes well, people will eventually just come to me and find me. Speaker 3: (05:35) And that's really what's happened. I started off way back then with just myself and a wonderful Mary receptionist. And now we have 23 staff and that part of the clinic so much so that I've now moved across the road to have a separate integrative clinic so that I can continue to just doing what I like to do with a couple of nurses and myself and two other integrative doctors and an integrative psychologist and these sort of people. So it was a matter of pulling things together over time to, to have a variety of options for people, a variety of it in a way of languages, how to understand disease and wellness. And what I've found over all of those years is that there isn't necessarily, as, as the great sages have often said, there's many paths to the top of the mountain. So it's a matter of finding the right one for each person versus a lot of Western medicine, which is very much scripted in terms of you have this diagnosis, you have this treatment versus you are this person with this variety of different things going on in your life. Speaker 3: (06:54) How can we find ways of getting either balance or detoxed or whatever needs to happen in that process to get it back towards house. Speaker 2: (07:06) So it's sort of looking more towards the root causes and, and as opposed to dealing just with symptoms and looking a little bit outside the box, did you, did you cop a lot of flack for that in the early days with, you know, coming from their sort of allopathic, conventional medicine world and, and looking then at things like acupuncture and you know, things that are outside of the, the standard box, if you like, has it been a difficult road or a in, have you seen that change over the last few years? Speaker 3: (07:42) It's a good question. I think originally I had to do it secretly and it wasn't approved and it was separate too. And I had to, I had to have two different lives as sort of Jekyll and Hyde components going on and you can decide, which is which out of mainstream or holistic. And so that was kind of difficult. But over the years what I found is if I started applying some of these techniques and people simply started getting better my colleagues would say, well, what are you doing? You know, what's, what's happening to those people that don't normally get better and now they're getting better. So that started me, gave me the opportunity to start talking about some of the things I did, but to be honest, while working in the hospital environment, it was quite difficult. So it wasn't until I moved up and started my own separate clinic that it gave me much more space, if you like to practice other things. However, I will say that the conservative elements of the mainstream still quite antagonistic to some of the things that we like to do in integrative medicine. And so there is that sense of walking along the brief tight wire, some of the times and having to basically practice really good medicine in a mainstream way, plus all the other things of both sides. Speaker 2: (09:17) Yeah. Being brilliant in both sides of that. So yeah, I, I mean, I th I see as a, someone who's come, not from a medical background but had a few issues along the way, shall we say, and going, okay, this isn't working, I'm going to look outside the box for myself. And having, you know, a couple of, with my mum, with myself with my brothers some very great success in, in looking outside the box. And I see a a massive movement of, of change and change in mentality now because we have access via the internet and the, and the stuff that we have available by a pub med and all those sort of great places where you can go and do your own research, that it's no longer completely controllable what what we do. And we can take ownership more, and we have the ability to take more ownership that we didn't have when we didn't have the internet and the ability to access great minds and great people and great research and the information that's coming out, you know, on a daily basis. Speaker 2: (10:25) I mean, no person on earth can stay up with it all. It's just so much. So if you wanting to do your own deep dive into a certain area, you can certainly find yourself down some very deep rabbit holes and becoming quite expert in a, in a, in a narrow field that you're trying to research. And do you see that in the people that are coming to you, that there is a shift in the people that are starting to come to you and say, Hey, I've seen this, I've heard about this, I've read about this as this something that's gonna help me. And people taking more ownership in that, in the, in the clientele that you sort of have, Speaker 3: (10:59) I think you're right. I mean, we're part of a informational revolution that's going on at the moment. I did say it's escalating all the time and it's growing and growing, which is a wonderful thing. Most of the time, it's the song, which is either contused or fake news, as they say. And I think being well-informed as the main thing, a lot of this, it is about helping a person become informed about what's going on. And so they can then take more control over themselves because they understand what it's about. And so that's the journey in a sense, it's helping to understand the person to some extent, walking in their shoes a wee bit to see, okay, what's going on? How can I put this together and express it back in a way where that person can make the right changes to bring about what they need to do? Speaker 3: (11:51) That's an edge, a very general of looking at it. Sometimes I had a great example this week of a person who came in a woman who was in her forties. She was well educated, but she had a whole selection of what, in Western medicine, we might consider the bizarre symptoms from neurological ones to skin, to all sorts of things. And she'd seen urologists and various people, and they'd all been scratching their heads about what's going on. She's obviously not, well, we can't put it together. But I said, look, why don't we, why don't we try a different language for this? And I then talked about the whole concept of low kidney energy and how it related to her tinnitus to her lack of mental agility to all sorts of components. And it's not to say it was just a way of bringing a whole raft of things together in a way that had a sense to it, rather than a sort of chaos, that, that chaos can be very unsettling and you don't know how to make sense. And particularly the experts can't make sense of it. Then you're kind of stuck with what the heck's going on. I might just going mad and, and she wasn't, she was just having a whole series of different things, which we could start bringing together under an umbrella of understanding. And even though we didn't have to use TCM as part of the treatment necessarily it gave it, she felt so much more at ease by the end of that, with an explanation that seemed to bring things together. Speaker 2: (13:36) Yeah. And it enabled her to maybe take a new approach to the way, say if you're getting disparate sort of information. Cause it was really hard when you're looking at sometimes your, your symptoms and then trying to go, well, where is this coming from? And what is it, you know? And it could be a myriad of things and trying to piece it together. You must have an incredible brain to be able to hold all of these, facets it without any sort of contradicting you know, dogmas even with an, in the knowledge that you have. Do you find that a bit of a juggling act at times, Speaker 3: (14:14) Strangely enough, not much. There are various possibilities for that. One is if you're into astrology, I'm a Gemini. I'm not a great, astrologist mind you, but there's two of me. And so we can talk to each other. I was brought up in a way where I, interestingly I don't want to get into my personal background particularly, but at one point I was went to a very expensive English school, but I actually stayed with my mother in a council house in a really poor area. So I went from one group of, in the morning to another one in the evening. Wow. And you had to talk the language of both. Yeah, yeah. To work it through. And I think that a sense of dance of life is good because it makes one, I'm able to cope with lots of different things at the same time, try and bring them together Speaker 2: (15:15) And being able to relate to people. It was, it wouldn't be a brilliant training and being able to be on every level and, and talk to people and communicate and, you know having this wealth of knowledge from all of these different disciplines and science areas, it must be very, you know, like to have that broad spectrum integrated approach. I think, you know, I wish there were more doctors available in New Zealand. There was, you know, we were starting to see more functional and integrated practitioners coming out and then you've got, you know, your, your whole health coach coaching in different areas. But it's a, it's a, certainly a changing world. And I'm hoping that there was going to be some change hopefully in the mainstream. Speaker 3: (16:02) Yeah. I mean, I've put up a little plugin and I may about those an organization called Amer the Australasian integrative medicine association, which is a mix of both doctors who do integrative medicine and also other health practitioners. And so on their websites, you can often get information about integrated doctors around New Zealand and Australia. Speaker 2: (16:25) Fabulous. That's a really good tip. I'll put that in the, in the show, Speaker 3: (16:30) Dub, dub, dub, amer.net.edu, but New Zealand. Speaker 2: (16:35) Okay. Well, we'll check that out. Cause you're getting in all sorts of lists of people. Now let's go a little bit into hyperbaric and I wanted to sort of touch on today. Some of the possible treatments for brain injury whether that's, you know, from stroke or traumatic brain injury or you know, concussions or aneurysms, in my case with mum your, your experience with hyperbaric in the, the medical grave facilities, I've had a mild hyperbaric chamber. My mum who might listen, sort of know my story with my mum. Four years ago, we had this disaster after three months in hospital, we've told, you know, put her in a, in a hospital level care facility and she'll never do anything again, she's major brain damage. I found hyperbaric on the internet and I managed to get a a commercial dive company that let me have access for a while. Speaker 2: (17:38) And then I had such success there that I ended up buying a mild hyperbaric chamber and installing it and out in their home and put her through she's had over 250 sessions now at 1.5 atmospheres that combined, and that, wasn't the only thing I did. And it ended up being an eight hour protocol every day that I sort of put together from pieces from functional neurology and nootropics and epigenetics and functional genomics and really diving deep for the last four years into the science and doing what I could, you know, it was either do everything I can or lose my mom. Those were the two options. So I was desperate to get her back. And on that journey, I've, I've hyperbaric is so powerful. His has so many things that it can be really good for. What, what are your experiences where that and the work that you did in the hospital and what it's actually recognized for versus what it overseas, perhaps as being used for two different things, aren't they, what's your take on that Speaker 3: (18:51) Sort of conventional set of indications for using hyperbaric? We still hospitals use we only have two hospital hyperbarics in New Zealand and one in Christchurch and one in Devonport which is really the Navy one rusty open hospital used us. Other than that, they're all private ones. So the hospital ones really is the history they came from. They came from a Navy based history for treating the bins really, or in the ancient days, you go back a hundred years, a case, some workers, which of the people that put in pylons for building bridges on the go of the water, they had to put the pylons in and they would get the bins and the bins. It was because when they came up, they were in pain and they were bent over because they were having gobbles coming out into their spine and their muscles. Speaker 3: (19:49) So yeah, the hospital based ones are really a very strict set of criteria. Like as I said, the bins various forms of severe infection, gangrene infections a few other conditions like carbon monoxide poisoning, possibly cyanide poisoning. But there limited number of conditions. It doesn't include brain injury. It doesn't include strokes. It doesn't include neurodegenerative diseases. It doesn't, Incruse clued fibromyalgia, a whole raft of things where we now realize there's reasonable evidence that it has some impact. One of the troubles with medicine is you'll know, is that it relies on this gold standard thing called a randomized controlled trial, where you have to do a very difficult process of having a placebo group and a treatment group. And for doing that, the hyperbaric is a nightmare because to try and have a treatment that isn't a treatment that looks like a treatment is quite hard. Speaker 3: (20:59) A lot of the work that's been done is kind of on the edge of how good it is. So most of the research we tend to see about is where we've used it lots of times and have said, ah, this seems to be working it's anecdotal it's case series. And there are some great researchers used, you'll know, like poor hearts in the States and so on. And to give some credit, the Russians have been doing it for much longer, but a lot of this stuff is unpublished. So there's a huge amount of volume of work going on around the world. And now one of the best units is in Israel. They've got some great work going on there. So, but these are the kind of these are the people going outside, the normal bubble of what's accepted as, okay. And yet they're getting good results as far as we can tell until you get that ask TT of gold standard, the conventional systems unlikely to change, that's the problem. Speaker 2: (22:02) And the, the having, you know, the randomized control trials is just not going to happen. And something like hyperbaric that hasn't got a patentable drug, realistically, the costs are too high aren't, they, Speaker 3: (22:14) It is high and there have been some trials, but they nearly always stop at 20 treatments. That that's the number that they stop at. Yeah. That's, it's kinda like I'm saying you've been on a drug per month and let's see how it's worked is it's kind of that way of thinking Speaker 2: (22:35) The genetic shifts happening, right. Speaker 3: (22:37) 200 hours of training as a whole lot of things that aren't going to happen in that time period, or they are, it's going to be fairly mild, not, not as far as you could. And as you know, one of things with the poor hearts researchers, he kept doing spec scans and checking up on patients and he found that they were still improving at 80 treatments, still improving. I mean, Hey, so we stop at 20 with our RCTs. It's not a great place to design. Is this working or not? Speaker 2: (23:08) And, and, you know, I mean, I know with, with mom I've yeah. Like I said, put her through 250, you know and I still continue to see improvements and I do it in blocks now, and then I give her a break from it. And it's in those breaks when you often get the next level of, of improvement. Speaker 3: (23:27) I think that is the epigenetic effect probably saying, Speaker 2: (23:32) Yeah. You know, to fix apparently 8,000 genes that can be influenced by these epigenetic shifts. And it's, it's, it's I like going to the gym, you know, I'm not going to go to the gym and then three weeks time out looking like taught. So they got, or, you know, it doesn't happen that quickly, but the NGO Genesis the inflammation, the STEM cell production, certainly at the higher or lower pressures they happen over time. Do you see also a benefit and stacking it for the ones who have a better word with other protocols? So, so other things like ozone therapy, for example, or P myth therapy or anything else that you find beneficial combining? Speaker 3: (24:23) I think, I mean, I would say yes in a, in a clinical sense of experience, but I couldn't say that there are trials with trials to say, like to have only one or two variables. They don't want to throw a whole lot in at once. You agreed, I would start probably with nutrition and there are a number of nutrients, which you know about that you can throw into the equation. I think as auxiliary treatments my particular interest at the moment is photobiomodulation, it's using laser treatment. Speaker 2: (24:56) Oh, I would be very interested to hear what you have to say about photos. Speaker 3: (25:01) So I think this to me is an up and coming thing. I've spent the last two or three summers going to a conference in Germany, a laser conference where some of the, the experts get together from around the world. And they talk about these things. I've also been to one in Australia last October. What, what we're now what we've known about. Okay. Let me tell the curve. Speaker 4: (25:28) Okay. Speaker 3: (25:30) Phases. We're not talking about cutting lasers, which are where you focus the beam to a point. So drill holes and things like James Bond. You know, that's not one of those, okay. We're talking about parallel, light photons. That is they're going side by side. So they're not drilling holes in you. And what happens with that? And there's a lot of great research, and this is where there's far more research out there than most people know about, because unless you're interested in this field, you don't go looking for it. I've got quite a big database now looking at all this stuff. And what we w one of the things that, that does, it does a whole rock to things a bit like hyperbaric. But it particularly affects the mitochondria because your mitochondria are the little components in every cell of your body, pretty well, that produces energy in terms of ATP and NADH as well. Speaker 3: (26:27) And those mitochondria, well, if we go back a little bit in time, those mitochondria, I actually what's called proteobacteria in the ancient of days, they were bacteria that had been incorporated into you carry out excels and also the cells, because they needed a bigger energy source. These provided the energy. So we became part of the place, if you see what I mean. So the interesting thing about mitochondria in their rules are what we call chromophores, which are proteins that react to light because that's how the bacteria actually got their energy originally, like plants. They were converting sunlight into energy. Okay. So how about how mitochondria respond to light at different frequencies? So different frequencies do dislike your different chemical reactions in the mitochondria. What so that's one little pack to hold onto it. And when that happens, a number of things happen. Speaker 3: (27:31) One, you get obviously the ability to produce a whole lot of repair mechanisms get stimulated energy mechanisms get stimulated. You turn off excessive inflammation, a whole lot of things you want to happen happen by getting your mitochondria to work properly. And in fact, one of the concerns that even about getting older and aging is that our mitochondria are not functioning properly, or we have less salt. It is the basis of aging really isn't it? Mitochondrial dysfunction, certainly one of the big, big keys. So different frequencies will do different stimulate different components. So we now know with lasers, we use different colored blazers to get different effects. However, the big problem is that if you try and print, since you use blue or yellow, the penetration is very small. So, but as you go towards red, you get more and more penetration. Speaker 3: (28:30) And what most of us now use is infrared. Infrared is the most penetrating of all colors. And what you can now do is, is get lasers that will penetrate right through bone, even through the skull, into the brain very effectively. I can give you a story if you want a story. It depends on what, what got me really interested in this area was another bit of serendipity where a number of years ago a patient in Oakland well, it's man in Oakland phoned me. I said, look, my wife has got this terrible thoracic vertebrae, vertebral abscess. So several vertebrae and unless she has continuous antibiotics she gets very unwell and in a lot of pain. And so she'd been on antibiotics for 18 months and every time she stopped it, it flared up badly to the point that they said, look, the only next thing we can do is do an operation where they go in through the past the lungs, through the anterior approach, which is to scoop out the dead material and pass and try and rebuild the spine, which is a dangerous operation horrific. Speaker 3: (29:53) And so the husband who was not an entrepreneur, he had did some research. He's a very bright guy and he came across hyperbaric oxygen. And so he found me because I, at the time was the only person with a high pressure, private hospitals refuse to do anything. That's fine. When in doubt we started treatment and we were part way through the treatment. And he came in to me and he said, Hey, Hey Tim, what do you know about lasers? And I said, well, not a lot, really. And it's developed, have you seen these papers? How power lasers at certain frequencies will kill bacteria, including staphylococcus, which she had. Wow. I thought, wow, that's interesting. And I read up on some papers and I then researched more and I came back to him a day or so later and say, Hey, look, you're right. This looks quite promising. Speaker 3: (30:50) He then said to me, okay, look, you find me the right laser. And I'll get it here in three days from anywhere in the world. I thought, wow, that's a good, I haven't been asked to do that before. So I found this one in the States, which was 25,000 U S wow. He had it there in three days. Boom. Wow. And we just started treating with both. And the long and the short is after two sets for treatments, she has been able to stop all her antibiotics and has stayed role for the last 18 months, two years while having any problem, it's amazing basically, and the MRIs improved and everything's, you know, there's new bone growth and so forth. So it just gave me that insight of, wow, there's so much information out there. Why didn't I know about it. So I got to know about it. Speaker 3: (31:42) I've been to these conferences. So now I'm starting to use a similar laser to the one he got just by the way, anyone who wants to get one, I found that his was actually made in China and I got it for a third, the price, what was it called? Because I'd love to have a look into that myself. Yeah. So it's a, it's a nice, it's a classical advisor. So you don't want to play there ladies as have class one to four and four is the most powerful, so you've got to be married. Yeah. So you've just got to be careful. Don't China in people's eyes and things like that. But anyway, so I've been using this for a number of different situations and there's some great research, randomized control trials of various things. One of them, which I found quite amazing is using it to depression, where they showed that if you did the left frontal area that in a randomized controlled trial, they improved similar to drug treatment. So there we go. Speaker 2: (32:46) Is that something looking at the vitamin D pathways or something like that? Or is it, Speaker 3: (32:53) I don't think so. No. I think it's a separate effect on we know from, in terms of depression also that often it's, so their frontal area on a QEG that's the main area, or if you do a functional MRI. And so it's just that, that was the area of this one to work on, to improve its functioning. So the thing with the laser is it's simply trying to restore a normal cell function as best it can. Speaker 2: (33:18) Is that laser available? Like, can you as a nonmedical professional get one of these, I mean, this gentlemen Speaker 3: (33:27) Far Mark Palmer exciting because a lot of this work's been done with the sort of laser that I would have the cost for, but then I'm realizing that low level laser treatment, L L T low level laser treatment, which is class three, but even on art seems to work. And what, when I say that, believe it or not is that this is something that's in the usually 50 to 500 milliwatt versus I'm using 15 Watts or 15,000 milli Watts. So what we initially thought is Hey, how can that possibly get through the skin, the underlying tissue, the skull, and into the brain and that level of power. It just didn't make sense. And yet the trials showed that it does. And what we now realize is that the skull, when you look at it with very high powered electron microscopes sections actually has this lattice works of tubules going through it, which the light can probably pass through. Wow. Because otherwise it just didn't make sense that something could hit this solid bone and still get through when, if you did it on the, on something similar thickness without those channels, it wouldn't so that, but anyway, so low level lasers are looking very good at the moment and they're much cheaper and much easier to use different ones. Speaker 2: (35:06) Yeah. I've got I've I've got two from via light. The 16, yes. I've got the two ones that go up up the nostril at the nasal ones at the, what is it? The eight, eight 55 or something in him. Speaker 3: (35:21) That's the nanometers. So that's the actual wavelengths of which is infrared. But then they piggyback onto that they what they call modulator. So that I think the one I've got the neuro one as well, which is still the 40 Hertz one. I haven't got that one, but 10 Hertz one. Yeah. That's the one that goes across the skull. Is it doing that? It's the actual, so what, this gets much more kind of exciting in a way, from my point of view, if you get, if you're excited by tech technical things, is that they, the wavelength of the infrared, which is the 800 to 800 to a thousand nanometers, roughly yes. Infrared that wavelength is what is going through into, in this case, the brain what you can do is you can pulse that process and that then becomes a frequency that's received by the tissue. Speaker 3: (36:24) So to some extent, the wave length going in is doing one set of things. And then on top of that, you can what I call piggyback, but the correct name is modulating the, so that you get a frequency, which has different effects. Now I'll give you an example a year or two ago a patient who was a local barista fell off his mountain bike and did the usual over the handlebars, hit his head, got concussed and tried to go back to work, but he is it problem with it. He had a cognitive deficit where he couldn't tolerate much noise people or anything, as soon as there was a lot going on his brain sort of short circuited, he couldn't think. And as a barista, that didn't work, he couldn't interact with people. So he had to stop working and this went on for months and he wasn't recovering. Speaker 3: (37:24) So he came to steamy and I said, look, okay, we'll use the laser. And we did a few sessions without obviously much improvement at what we call a continuous rate where it's just the infrared process. But then I looked at some of the research and I thought, what I can do on my laser, I can actually put in any frequency I want, I can change it. It's a sort of fairly clever one. And I, so I put it at 10 Hertz frequency that session from then onwards, he just got better and better and better and went back to work and he knew it the next day. He'd said, look, I'm so much better just from that one session once we did the 10 Hertz. So what we're understanding now, there's a lot of research going on around the world here. The guy cut in the States called Michael Hamblin. Speaker 3: (38:15) Who's one of the sort of gurus of this, but also in Australia and in Tasmania, interesting enough, they're doing a whole load of research. Look at these frequencies, looking at what's bears, looking at what how much you need and what they're finding. It's a little bit like hyperbaric. When I started doing hyperbaric, we used very high pressure as well, partly because we're treating divers, but a lot of the therapy was based on two to 2.4 atmospheres treatment and everything, as you know, what, what requirement is actually, some of the lower pressures are better for certain situations restore brain function. And they're finding that with the lasers, you don't necessarily have to hammer it in hard with a very high level. It's more of about the subtleties of the right frequencies, the right dose, the right evidencing. So this is where a lot of work's going on. I don't think we've got all the answers by a long way, but I think it's a very exciting field risk, low risk, you know, very low risk. What we do know about, as you're saying these lays, this sort of laser is pretty well without risk providing you don't look at it. And with the sort of laser I've got that if you hold it in one place, it gets too hot. So there's a heat element. Whereas the low level that doesn't happen, they using led lights now instead of laser. So Speaker 2: (39:43) I saw one just yesterday when I was doing some research on tinnitus I've forgotten the name of it, Luma meat or something like that. Laser therapy that they're doing the doctor in Australia was doing it for the inner ear to regenerate the hears on the inner ear to help, you know, tonight as suburb sufferers and his disease suffers. And then we're getting lots of success with that. And I certainly, you know, when I heard about it and did some, some research on it for mum, I think it's been a part of her recovery as well. I only had internet-based the nasal ones and I had one at the 600, the 600 in him and the other one at the eight, eight 50. But I'd like to look into this more. It seems to be a lot going on around frequencies general, whether it's light frequencies or PEMF pulsed electromagnetic field. Do you know anything about the PE EMF at all? Speaker 3: (40:42) Yeah, I mean, I think this is a really exciting area. It's it's, to some extent it started off with someone called Royal rife in the, in the States. Do you know, do you know about him? He's a, he was a doctor back in the 1930s, forties, fifties. It was really quite a brilliant doctor, but actually ended up in a sad situation because, well, I'll come to that. So he started looking at how frequencies could be used in medicine. And what he found is that by using, he had a cathode Ray tube in those days to produce them. And he also developed at the time, the most powerful microscope light microscope that existed a very intricate complex microscope that allowed him to look at cells while they're alive. What's called dark microscopy, which was very new at the time. Speaker 3: (41:43) And what it could do is look at cells and then the mom with his catheter, gray different frequencies and see what happened to them. And what he found is that he retained some frequencies and see different things. So he kept saying, you know, if you're trying to kill this by this seems to be the right frequency or this cancer, this frequency seems to be the right frequency and did a of research over a years and started getting some really quite astounding success with these patients. And a number of his close friends started their colleagues. We started using similar instruments and again, started doing very well until the FDA got winded at all. And they came in and Congress skated every part of his equipment that he had, and he was left in ruins. But and yet there's a huge amount of information left behind about what he was doing. And so a lot of the ideas of different frequencies for different illnesses came from his early work. Speaker 2: (42:49) That's right. I do remember that story now. And there is a few of his machines that have been Speaker 3: (42:54) Absolutely. So there are some original ones possibly when they say original, it's really hard to know because we don't know really what the regional ones, cause there's some sort of stronghold by the FDA got rid of them, but there's also some very modern versions of them now, which are computerized, which obviously he couldn't do. But so just to say that I think the electromagnetic field concept I mean, we're, we're in a very low electromagnetic field when we're not around other gadgetry and we're inside the field of the earth, which, you know, the Schumann frequency, which are an important frequency that have been there since, you know, we evolved. So they are part of our evolution. So they're part of what is normal for us. And so those frequencies are quite important frequencies. When we start coming in with very set frequencies, like 50 Hertz for electricity and all these other things, we're actually interfering with a whole normal ability to stay in homeo homeostasis, to some extent. Speaker 2: (44:06) And this is where, yeah, the EMF side of the argument, or, you know, the, the problems that we're possibly facing with, with CMS, it's from all our devices and 5g coming, goodness knows what's X gonna do. And PEMF is very different though. It's using the right frequencies Speaker 3: (44:24) That's and it's also using the therapeutic way. And by and large, in, in at a low level, rather than a level, you don't necessarily, again, have to use these massive magnetic fields to get the effect that you want. You can use really very subtle ones. Speaker 2: (44:39) And again, it's working on the mitochondria, I believe from the research that I've done, it's actually having an effect on the mitochondrial health and function. And I, I just, I wish we had a, I wish everybody could have access to a place where we had all of these things lined up next to each other and, you know, the ones that are lower risk at least that we could all, you know, be able to use without huge costs involved in a utopia, perhaps something like that. Yeah. Speaker 3: (45:08) I think we're moving a little bit towards that and I expect, and maybe on another occasion, I'll talk about sound therapy and how the that's another component of frequency, but I, I agree you can use to CS, which is cranial electric stimulation very simple devices like the alpha STEM, very expensive, what it is that almost immediately induces a sleepy, relaxed state. Speaker 2: (45:40) Yes. Yeah, I'll be, I'll be in that one too. So yes, Speaker 3: (45:46) It's kind of bizarre that you can just put two clips. I kept on each year and start the machine. And within minutes you're feeling drowsy and very relaxed, Speaker 2: (45:57) But it's mentioned and Ben Greenfield, he's a famous biohacker and trainer out of the States and his new book boundless, which is quite an amazing book. It's got, you know, everything known to man, and then he mentions the CES and using that to, to go to sleep every night and how it's improved as her sleep. So there's just so much things that are coming. And I, and I find it really exciting if we can integrate the traditional medical model with some of these like you are doing. And it's a really exciting thing for me. And I just wish we had more access for more people. It is, you see, before I don't need any promotion because I have so many people wanting to come to me and I can, I can truly believe that because there's such a need out there. Speaker 3: (46:49) The wonderful, unfortunately there are a few old phrases in medicine. One is that medicine changes coding. When the previous generation dies. It tends to prove slowly Speaker 2: (47:04) It's hard, Speaker 3: (47:07) People vote with their feet. And I think that's what we're seeing. A lot of people are actually saying, I don't want this. I want that. Rather than just accepting what's there, that's very healthy on the whole saying, okay, I'm, I'm getting quite informed about what I think I need. I just need someone to guide me through that process and if necessary me with some of the resources. And so I think that's a very important thing. And I think by and large, it is being embraced a bit in general practice to some extent, but probably less so as you move up the ladder into secondary and tertiary care, which is a kind of specialist areas, Speaker 2: (47:48) And this is why I think it's important that you know, where, you know, want to be in the preventative space where possible, so that we, you know, are looking at things before it gets to the point where everything's taken out of your control, because you're now in the intensive care or in the hospital, some where it's actually impossible to get any of these things. And it's important that we take control and ownership. And this is what the show is really all about is, is educating people about the things that are out there and the things that they can do their own research is it's a curation. If you like of information from brilliant minds in different areas, so that we can have, these can have these conversations and open up these discussions so that we can start to realize that there is more than just a pharmaceutical model or a surgical model, which is mostly what we were offered. I mean, those are very important and very good, but Speaker 3: (48:44) Yeah, they're largely the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff. To some extent they have much more difficulty dealing with chronic longterm problems. They're good for the acute and the end, if, you know, if I break my leg, I'm going straight to the hospital. Speaker 2: (49:00) Yeah. Yeah. And then you might come home and do a hyperbaric session on the way home. Speaker 3: (49:07) Most of my I'd live in it. Speaker 2: (49:09) Exactly. I would tell you if I have one that you've got, that's brilliant. Just coming back to hormone sorry. I wanted to talk about hormones in relation to brain injury. Is there something you're seeing yes, under diagnosed often with traumatic brain injuries, especially Speaker 3: (49:28) A very interesting point. You bring up in time. I should I have a whole presentation on all of this, but one of the papers I'm just kind of going to, Speaker 2: (49:38) I have to get you back on to, to take us through the whole presentation. Speaker 3: (49:43) Okay. So this is, I'm just reading from my slide now, the prevalence of hypo pituitary ism. So you put your three glands just behind your eyes and produce several homelands in mild, moderate, and severe brain injury was estimated at 16.8% for mild. So that's nearly 17% interesting, only 10.9 for moderate and 35% for severe TBI. But what that saying is that people can have interference with some of their hormone production or a relatively mild event. TBI is common. We now realize one of the big things that's only recently kind of come to is how frequent TBI and what we call MTBI mild, traumatic brain injury, and eh, from sports through to domestic violence, through to all sorts of things where people are getting minor injuries all the time. When I say all the time, several in a row or within a period of time. Speaker 3: (50:49) And it can be that I had a sort of patient just this week, for instance, had come up from Christchurch to see me who had had an injury a year ago, where he had walked into a metal bar, cause he was looking the wrong way and wasn't actually knocked out. Then when I started talking about it, he said, Oh, well, yeah. And the previous year I did that. And then I fell over and hit my head, did that. And before that, and we had this whole series of minor traumatic brain injuries, and this was a store on the camel's back because since his last one he's hardly been able to work. He can't concentrate all these things that are familiar to us with MTBI. And so it's often that kind of background of quite a few, and then something knocks you out when they're not bad words, but something pushes you over the edge. Speaker 2: (51:42) And then you start to have, well, actually a year, we he's had some consult consults with me as well. And I've it, it, I think people think that they have to have her knocked out, had a major car accident before anything is actually a real problem or if they had it. So in the case of my brother who was a professional rugby player some of the things that I'm seeing in him now, and I have permission to talk about us information are signs to me of a delayed response to brain injury and, you know, helping him work through all of those, but often you, you won't know that it was the thing that you did 10 years ago, perhaps that can still be affecting your brain or that your personality has changed because of a brain injury or your energy levels, your hormones and so on. And this is why it's really important. Speaker 3: (52:42) And I'd also add in there that that store on the camel's back of that minor injury may actually be because there are other things going on, like other toxins, whether they're heavy metals are related to what you're working and so forth. So there can be a variety of other things that was sitting there in the background and until really challenged, didn't seem to have a problem with them yet when you're challenged, you do, and you then have to deal with those as well, come right through a detox process quite often to deal with some of the oldest. Well, some of the background stuff I should say. Speaker 2: (53:26) Yeah. And so, you know, looking at like with brain injury and optimizing brain health, we need to be looking at foundational health issues as well as okay. For the fancier things like the hyperbaric and the laser and all of those, the hormone assessment and, and starting to, to educate people around, you know, systemic inflammation and the job of mitochondria and all of these aspects, which heavy metal detoxing, which is something that we should all probably be interested in. And then layering on top of it. Some of these other therapies and that multipronged approach is something that I think has been the reason that I think I've been successful with mom is that having those, those layers and then continuing to look, what is the next thing, what is the next area that I can explore to bring the next but back? And as you say, it can build on each other. And as we get older, we build more toxicity in our body from metals. Most of us have got some sort of, Speaker 3: (54:27) We don't have history. Speaker 2: (54:29) We do, and we collect it and then it starts to it's that bucket there's that we sort of manage it to here and then it overflows and then it's all sorts coming out. So let's, you know, being in that preventative mindset of, okay, I'm going to help my body detox before I perhaps get something else happen to me. You know, it can be a good, a good way of looking at it. W we've covered a whole lot of areas everywhere. Just one last question for me, an area that I'm interested in, I've just got a new kit, new ozone therapy kit. What's your take on ozone? This is something I've just been getting into the last couple of weeks and researching is it, you know, like it seems to have some of the same benefits as hyperbaric in, in a way a different process and delivery, but it seems to be quite similar in some aspects. Have you had any experience with those on, at all Speaker 3: (55:30) A bit? I'm not an expert on it, so I'll say that, but I've read a fair amount on it. And I have a colleague working for my clinic now who has a perfusion equipment, which kind of topics I think like many things, it's a double edged sword. So people, first of all, must never have agree. Those are toxic to the lungs. So the idea that, Oh, I'll just get a kit and breed. Some is the completely wrong thing to do. So it has to be introduced into the body. And that's where we run into problems. First of all, because you can put it in through various artifices yep. Other than the breathing one. And that makes it plain or it can be given and it can be given intravenously in two ways. One literally as a bonus ozone, which is somewhat, could be risky. Speaker 3: (56:36) And although those that use it say that it isn't or you can take some blood off, mix it with Arizona and reproduce it, which is the one in Germany has been done for many years now. So there's quite a lot of research from them about its use. And I think it, it has a definite role as a, as a strong antiseptic for the staff. So in terms of killing bugs within the organism it probably has an anti cancer component. The problem with when we say probably is actually getting the research done. So again, this is more anecdotal evidence but it, it has a way of re oxygen icing, very similar, I think, to hyperbaric, but also sterilizing as well, which is slightly different from hyperbaric to barricade. It has to be an anaerobic bug for that to work. So I think it does have some definite roles. I think if you're doing your run, you you're talking, it's going to be very careful Speaker 2: (57:46) The home therapy. Yeah. That's ear insufflation and rectal insufflation cupping, that type of thing. But yes. Yeah, I think, I think it's a good thing to have a few obviously need to be taught and doing some training in it this week how to, how to use it safely. Definitely don't want it anywhere near your lungs. But it, it, that dangerous side, as far as the lungs is concerned, a very good thing to have as a basic first aid for any infection that you get, you know, speak Corona even maybe they are looking into the research at the moment is if it can help with the coronavirus. And I've got a dr. Rowan coming on my show next week, who's one of the world's top experts and ozone therapies are really excited. He actually went to Africa and the Ebola crisis got shut down, unfortunately by, shall we say the mafia somewhere over the, there, when he was treating patients and treating in training the doctors and it, but it is a very, it seems to have a lot of research over a long period of time. Speaker 2: (58:56) And again I think a very interesting one to do more research on yourself and to maybe add into the, to the, to the list of things that you can do. Speaker 3: (59:08) I definitely think so. And of course, you know, for me, I would be probably if I was concerned about personally concerned about Kobe, be using high dose intravenous vitamin C, which we do here anyway. So that's part of the same. But you brought up than I did. One of the research the Germans had done in Africa on malaria was using one of the blue lasers intravenously or into the vein while taking one of the B vitamins, which so this is using PDT, which is photo dynamic therapy. So photo meaning the laser dynamic, meaning you give something which sensitizes, whatever the target is to the laser in this case, it's the bacteria, or at least in his, but it's actually the malaria parasite I should say. And they showed very definite success with doing this wow light and the vitamin B irradiation. Speaker 3: (01:00:18) I think they call that. Yeah, there's UV radiation too. So this is a this is using PDT, which is similar, but using, for instance, one of the things that I've been working with is PDT here, where we use the infrared laser with the sensitizing agent, which is called InDesign and green. It's a green dye that they eye specialists use to look at the back of your eye and cancer cells taken up preferentially to normal cells and hold on to it. Whereas normal cells pass it through within 30 minutes. Wow. So what you do is you give this an hour or two before your treatment and then shine the laser light at the cancer. And I've had one remarkable disappearance of a cancer just doing that. So again, for everybody, before I get too many times, this is an area of interest and it's cool PDT photo dynamics. Speaker 3: (01:01:25) So using light with an agent that don't and I also use an ultrasound machine and the thing that sensitizes you to Roxanne is curcumin. So and using ultrasound and because Tim was hold onto it for a long time, you can use that to, Hmm, goodness. Isn't that funny? That's without me now, they won't go SPD T so no photodynamic therapy, right? I'm going to have to look at that one. Now this is experimental. So it's research stuff. So that's not something that's out there for everyone to go and get it's something being looked at around the world. There's a huge amount of research going on in medical circles and sciences to find the right agents, the lights frequencies and so forth, but a promising area using nanotechnology to deliver the sensitizer to the cancer as well. There's a lot of very fancy stuff going on. Speaker 2: (01:02:34) Wow. This is very exciting. Well, I think we've covered a lot of ground today. Heaven. We thank you so much, dr. Tome. I really appreciate your time. And the fact that you, we, you know, we have such a great doctor in our midst and who is looking at all of these very exciting areas and integrating knowledge from all areas and having such an open approach to it. I think that's absolutely brilliant. I wish you were bit more local. It would be good. I would love to have you again on the show to talk about, maybe do a presentation and the, the the information that you were talking about the just earlier at some stage when you have time, but I'm super appreciative of your time. Did I know that you're an extremely busy man? Is there anything that you would like to say to wrap up the show or any, any final words? Speaker 3: (01:03:28) I think just I'd support the whole idea of, of integrative medicine as a. And I think that can involve a whole load of different health practitioners working together to get that model by the way, rather than just one person as the way forward to the future for getting, not just from disease to some degree of wellness, but getting to full wellbeing, the next layer up. And I think that's really where we're heading and a lot of ways through lifestyle, you know, diet, all of these different things. And to me, like you've been talking about today, what excites me particularly is the idea of using light color sound and vibration as part of that journey. I think it's fascinating. I think we're only partway there. We haven't mentioned sound yet. That's another whole area, so there's some interesting things going on to try to make that happen. Speaker 2: (01:04:21) Very exciting times ahead. I can't wait for a little bit more research to happen and to make it more less expensive in more doable for people so that they can actually get up. Dr. Tim, thank you so much for your time today. I really, really appreciate it. And we hope to, Hey, hope to have you on again soon. Speaker 1: (01:04:42) That's it this week for pushing the limits, be sure to write review and share with your friends and head over and visit Lisa and her team at lisatamati.com

In this episode Lisa speaks with NZ's top Ozone Therapy Machine providers and expert on all things Ozone, Kim Saxton of Natural Ozone (www.naturalozone.co.nz)   What is Ozone Therapy? Ozone Therapy refers to a collection of procedures and protocols which have been developed by medical experts using medical ozone to treat a condition or reduce symptoms. They include: Injection - Auto hemotherapy; or direct injection into a vein or joint. Insufflation - in the ear; vaginal; rectal. Inhalation   - breathing ozonoids given off from ozonated oil. Ingestion - Ozonated water, ozonated olive oil in capsule form. Transdermal  - Cupping with a funnel. Sauna. All of the above therapies except for injection can be administered safely in the comfort of your own home using the equipment available through Natural Ozone. From improved immune system function to stimulating the uptake of life-giving oxygen, delivering anti-microbial benefits and enhancing the function of the mitochondria (our cells energy powerhouses), your decision to begin ozone therapy is a health-enhancing one! Ozone therapy refers to the process of administering ozone gas into your body to treat a disease or wound. Ozone is a colorless gas made up of three atoms of oxygen (O3). It can be used to treat medical conditions by stimulating the immune system. It can also be used to disinfect and treat disease.   How it works Ozone therapy works by disrupting unhealthy processes in the body. It can help stop the growth of bacteria that are harmful. Medical ozone has been usedTrusted Source to disinfect medical supplies and treat different conditions for more than 150 years. For example, if you have an infection in your body, ozone therapy can stop it from spreading.   Ozone therapy can be effective at treating infections caused by: bacteria viruses fungi yeast protozoa Ozone therapy also helps flush out infected cells. Once the body rids itself of these infected cells, it produces new, healthy ones.   What it helps treat Ozone therapy is used for a variety of conditions.   Breathing disorders People with any type of breathing disorder may be good candidates for ozone therapy. By providing more oxygen to your blood, ozone therapy can help reduce the stress on your lungs. Your lungs are responsible for supplying oxygen to your blood. Clinical trials for people with asthma and chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD) are currently in progress.    Diabetes Ozone therapy also shows promise in reducing the risk of complications from diabetes. Complications are usually caused by oxidative stress in the body. If ozone therapy can bring new, fresh oxygen to the blood and tissues, people with diabetes could have much better outcomes. People with diabetes also experience poor wound healing. According to a 2015 study, ozone therapy could be helpful for repairing skin and tissue.   Immune disorders Ozone therapy may have benefits for people with immune disorders because it can help stimulate the immune system.   Some links of interest mentioned during the podcast:   Natural Ozone https://naturalozone.co.nz/collections/ozone-therapy-1 Natural Ozone Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/NaturalOzoneNZ/ Frank Shallenberger The Ozone Miracle: http://www.theozonemiracle.com/ Library of medical studies, journal publications and references on Ozone Therapy https://www.zotero.org/groups/46074/isco3_ozone/items/JWHQISE3/library Dr Robert Rowen https://drrowendrsu.com/   Ozone therapy clinics in NZ:  Dr Wayne McCarthy https://waipunaturalhealth.co.nz/meet-the-team/dr-wayne-mccarthy-naturopathic-physician/ Michelle Roberts : https://www.michellesoxygen.co.nz/    About Kim Saxton It was back in 2007 when Kim first encountered the extraordinary power of O3 gas while working with a small local company. Her background in business development and MSc in International Management brought that enterprise onto a good business footing while she gained formidable knowledge of this fascinating branch of science. Armed with these years of research and experience, Kim independently founded Natural Ozone in 2016. Natural Ozone supplies all the products and associated equipment required to harness the full range of applications for ozone including air and water purification, room and car sanitisation, as well as health treatment. With well-established partner companies who have manufactured to their exacting standards for over a decade, Natural Ozone is uniquely placed within Australasia to supply high quality, reliable equipment.   We would like to thank our sponsors for this show: For more information on Lisa Tamati's programs, books and documentaries please visit www.lisatamati.com   For Lisa's online run training coaching go to https://www.lisatamati.com/page/runni... Join hundreds of athletes from all over the world and all levels smashing their running goals while staying healthy in mind and body.   Lisa's Epigenetics Testing Program https://www.lisatamati.com/page/epige... measurement and lifestyle stress data, that can all be captured from the comfort of your own home   For Lisa's Mental Toughness online course visit: https://www.lisatamati.com/page/minds...   Lisa's third book has just been released. It's titled "Relentless - How A Mother And Daughter Defied The Odds" Visit: https://relentlessbook.lisatamati.com/ for more Information   ABOUT THE BOOK: When extreme endurance athlete, Lisa Tamati, was confronted with the hardest challenge of her life, she fought with everything she had. Her beloved mother, Isobel, had suffered a huge aneurysm and stroke and was left with massive brain damage; she was like a baby in a woman's body. The prognosis was dire. There was very little hope that she would ever have any quality of life again. But Lisa is a fighter and stubborn. She absolutely refused to accept the words of the medical fraternity and instead decided that she was going to get her mother back or die trying. This book tells of the horrors, despair, hope, love, and incredible experiences and insights of that journey. It shares the difficulties of going against a medical system that has major problems and limitations. Amongst the darkest times were moments of great laughter and joy. Relentless will not only take the reader on a journey from despair to hope and joy, but it also provides information on the treatments used, expert advice and key principles to overcoming obstacles and winning in all of life's challenges. It will inspire and guide anyone who wants to achieve their goals in life, overcome massive obstacles or limiting beliefs. It's for those who are facing terrible odds, for those who can't see light at the end of the tunnel. It's about courage, self-belief, and mental toughness. And it's also about vulnerability... it's real, raw, and genuine. This is not just a story about the love and dedication between a mother and a daughter. It is about beating the odds, never giving up hope, doing whatever it takes, and what it means to go 'all in'. Isobel's miraculous recovery is a true tale of what can be accomplished when love is the motivating factor and when being relentless is the only option.   Here's What NY Times Best Selling author and Nobel Prize Winner Author says of The Book: "There is nothing more powerful than overcoming physical illness when doctors don't have answers and the odds are stacked against you. This is a fiercely inspiring journey of a mother and daughter that never give up. It's a powerful example for all of us." —Dr. Bill Andrews, Nobel Prize Winner, author of Curing Aging and Telomere Lengthening. "A hero is someone that refuses to let anything stand in her way, and Lisa Tamati is such an individual. Faced with the insurmountable challenge of bringing her ailing mother back to health, Lisa harnessed a deeper strength to overcome impossible odds. Her story is gritty, genuine and raw, but ultimately uplifting and endearing. If you want to harness the power of hope and conviction to overcome the obstacles in your life, Lisa's inspiring story will show you the path." —Dean Karnazes, New York Times best selling author and Extreme Endurance Athlete.   Transcript of the Podcast: Speaker 1: (00:01) Welcome to pushing the limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential with your host, Lisa Tamati, brought to you by Lisatamati.com Speaker 2: (00:13) Today everybody to pushing the limits today. I have another exciting guest for you, Kim Saxton of naturalozone.co.nz, the leading ozone machine providers in New Zealand is to guest on the show today and Kim has going to be explaining what exactly ozone therapy is, how you can use it, the various ways of getting it into the body, why you should do that and all the conditions that can be helped with ozone therapy. Now this is something that's been on my radar for a while, so I was really, really excited to finally catch up with Kim and I'm going to be trialing out the ozone therapy over the coming weeks. So I will let you know how I go. And thanks very much to come for doing this interview. Before we go over to kim, just want to remind you two things. Speaker 2: (01:00) We have our next epigenetics public webinar that we're holding online via zoom on the 27th of May at 6:30 PM. If you want to find out about it, if a genetics program, which is all about personalized health and understanding your genes and how they're expressing themselves, then go over to epigenetics.lisatamati.com to register for that webinar 27th of May at 6:30 PM New Zealand time. You can come in and find out all about the epigenetics program that we offer and how it can help you. And finally, before we go into the show, just another plug for my book, relentless, which I bought out a couple of weeks ago, a few weeks ago now. Really, really great read in this time of Coburn and all that uncertainty and taking on big challenges cause that's what that book is all about. You can grab that on my website, lisatamati.com. It's available on all the audio books, the eBooks, the Amazon, the Kindles, the, you name it, it's available everywhere. So check that out. It's called relentless. How a mother and daughter defied the odds right now over to Kim Saxton from natural ozone. Speaker 1: (02:16) Sorry. Speaker 3: (02:16) Good. All right. Hi everyone. Welcome back to the show. This is Lisa Tamati at pushing the limits and I have the lovely Kim saxton with me. Kim, how you doing? Speaker 4: (02:24) Very good. Hi Lisa. Speaker 3: (02:26) It's really cool to have you there. Kevin is setting an initial 10. What was the name of the place? The villains. Speaker 4: (02:32) Cool. Cool. See at Bay actually, which is yeah, one Bay around from Luton. Speaker 3: (02:38) Yes. Actually that's been in the news lately, hasn't it? And of course, thereby Bay, I think when the cruise ship was off there was, Speaker 4: (02:45) That's right. Speaker 3: (02:47) I just remember that somewhere popped into my head. So Kim is with us today to talk ozone and ozone therapy and Kim owns a company called naturalozone.co.nz. Then I'll put them on links and things after to comes website and the products that they do and she's going to share her knowledge today. Everything around ozone. And I'm really fascinated by this and it's something that's been on my radar for the last couple of years and I just haven't got there to do it. But I'm hearing amazing things both in relation to the coronavirus you know, if we want to be current and also many, many other areas. So can, can you tell us a little bit, so you've been in the ozone world now for quite a few years. Speaker 4: (03:33) Yes. So basically about 15 years I first came into contact to ozone and, and well, the amazing things that it can do via my former partner. And he had been already had been involved with ozone therapy and ozone products for about 10 years. Before I met him. He had actually contracted hepatitis B while traveling through India and after, yes, lots and lots of conversations like you do with people. Lisa I had come across ozone therapy and actually cured himself of hepatitis B which, you know you, you say that to a GP and they'll go, yeah. But yeah, I was on therapy alone. He took himself hepatitis B and, and got into building machines. I came along and made a business around it. So Speaker 3: (04:40) So you have a background as the masters in international management, isn't it? Speaker 4: (04:45) Yes, that's right. Yeah. So I studied that in London, university of London at Southwest university, which is a school of African and Asian studies and that's a, yeah. Yeah. Basically you got a big international management college with focus on Asia. Yeah, it's run through the university of London. Speaker 3: (05:08) So you're able to use a lot of that skills to build a business around something that you knew was powerful and good, but Speaker 4: (05:15) It's coming from a family that's, yeah, pretty, pretty business oriented. So like, yeah, I was telling you earlier that you know, when my family gets together at Christmas, everybody's talking about the latest startup and latest technology and yeah, you know, we're also debating about what the government's doing and all that. You know, but everybody's like jumping right in there with their ideas and innovation and I've got three older brothers and very supportive growing up. They're, they're all awesome. And we were all good friends, so and support of each other. So yeah. And, and actually now what we're saying is a lot of international connections and things like that. And, and particularly, particularly from Asia, like I'm already quite well established in Asia Australian and New Zealand markets, but wow, they were getting from India and Singapore and, and things like this and this part of the book. Speaker 3: (06:29) So share this year, this powerful therapy with people. So, okay, let's go into ozone. People would have heard, probably let you know, I think most people's knowledges, I've heard about it. Some people have said it's great dunno where I can get it done. Really one of those, or this seems to be, and even for me, I've read a couple of books and things. I'm still a little bit confused about all of the variety. It seems like it affects everything and the different applications and the different ways you can use it. Can we just start at the beginning and say what is ozone you know, from molecule point of view and what did the ozone machines do? Speaker 4: (07:09) Sure. So ozone is a gas and it has three atoms. So oxygen has two atoms and ozone has three. So where is oxygen is stable. It wants to the two oxygen atoms. They want to stay together and main stable and bond. But ozone is relatively unstable, so it's highly active. I like to think of it as enhanced oxygen. With the oxygen atom. It's it's very powerful when you can harness it and use it which there's tons of ways that we're going to get into and I'm really excited about that. But yeah, if you can harness that power, that extra oxygen atom, then it's very powerful. So the way that ozone is created naturally in the atmosphere, so it's in the higher, I'm answering the lower atmosphere, but with your, they liked and lightning storms and any kind of energy that will come along and will spoon your oxygen atoms. And what, what then happens is a lot of other oxygen the Adam's will bond and form oxygen and that's majority of what's happening. But also what's happening is it will give off ozone. So this a strong base get off and all form with another two oxygen atoms and form for my zone. And, Speaker 3: (08:56) And we have an ozone layer, don't we? We all know that the ozone layer having holes in it. Speaker 4: (09:00) Yeah, yeah. And, and you can, you can actually smell ozone. So after, after the lightning storm, when it's at really fresh smell, after we've had this big storm at night and you wake up in the morning and there's sun shining and you can really S it smells so good, smells really, really fresh. And that's, that's ozone. And also a few go and stand under a waterfall or go to the beach and there's big crashing surf. That's all giving off ozone. Wow. Basically breaking up those oxygen atoms and it's all given off ozone. So and, and in low levels it's it's very good and very healthy for us, but in high concentrations which he can produce conditionally to ozone generators then it is an irritant to the lungs. So and that's very non, so about the, when we get into ozone therapy about the only thing you can't do with those own therapy is breathe directly the ozone guests in high concentrations and low concentrations. It's absolutely fine. Yep. Speaker 3: (10:10) Cause it doesn't, yeah, it doesn't pick the lungs in the negative way and can actually lead to death if you have a really, really high dose of advisers. Is that right? Speaker 4: (10:20) Or just damages just really damages the lungs in particular people with asthma. Yeah, for a strong irritant to actually know you've, you've done too much ozone cause you'll, you'll have a horrible coughing attack which can, which can go on and be you know you know, quite severe. But actually if you, if you stop puffing I'm, I'm Mike, you know, like you were saying before that you want to have a laboratory and doing all sorts of experiments and things like that. So one of the things I do is make ozonated oil, which can take about a month. And sometimes when it's kind of on its last legs, then the ozone, after it's fully infused into the oil, we'll start off guessing and I've walked into the room and there's too much ozone in there and I'll breathe too much and my stop coughing. But if I reached for the vitamin C and take the vitamin C straight away, then immediately you're, you're fine. It's also not the end of the world. Speaker 3: (11:26) Yeah. Yeah. And it would have to be pretty, pretty hard to assess, to do some serious damage, but you don't sit at the end of a ozone generator. And sucker. Okay. So what are some of the ways we can harness, before we get into what it helps, what are some of the methodologies or the delivery mechanisms that we can get that the ozone to the right part of the body and get it inside? Speaker 4: (11:52) Yeah, so that's a great question. And, and often the first one that people, people ask me then I'd say, Oh dude, do you breathe it? And I'm like, well, no, it was never said, we can't, we can't do that. But yeah, basically there is, yeah. Every, every other common way that you can, you, you can get into the body. So I was just mentioned the ozonated oil, what you can do is breathe the ozonated oil. So when I was zone is infused into olive oil, which is a traditional medium that's usually used and it's actually changing its state very, very quickly because, yeah, this ozone is, is reactive, it's unstable, and the olive oil will actually hold, hold the ozone. But it, it changes it Satan to something called Oh, it's annoyed. And when you breathe that that I was annoyed from the olive oil as it's been infused, then that's really good for lung conditions. Speaker 4: (13:01) So that's how you can help breathing conditions and the lungs, which is very relevant at the moment. So that would be like in a sort of essential oil diffuser type situation. It's, yeah, it's, it's not, it's not really in the realm of essential oil. Ozone does have a very restaurant smell. And a lot of people will be put off actually by this strong smell. But it's, it's actually, you know, and fish tanks, you diffuse the stones to just bubble oxygen and to the water clear and plain in the fish tanks. So these diffusers stones, what were you as as it was on, it's very corrosive. So we always use ozone resistant materials. So I have, I import diffuse the stones from America, we can't make it here. And my dad of ceramic and stone. And you basically diffused that the pure form of the guests into a, the olive oil and that will form owes in words and you complete that. Speaker 4: (14:14) And so that's, so that's one of the modems and then everything under the sun. So the most powerful way to get ozone into the body is actually to go to a clinic and do what's called also hammy off the or I the ozone. And this is systematic. So it's, it's working on the, on the, on the total body because basically the medical grade ozone is getting into the body and getting into your blood system and then your blood declining. It's really doing a lot of amazing, amazing, powerful things that we can get into also. But w we all say medical grade ozone, that's, this is a really important point because of, we've talked about how unstable the ozone is and basically reacts with whatever is around it. So if we just have like a normal ozone generator then that bull jaw and ear, and we know that the air in which we brave is only about 21% oxygen and year and the rest of the ear is whole lot of other guesses. Speaker 4: (15:29) Yeah. So if you, if you bring that normal ear into the ozone generator, then what? Then the guys are more react to that normal air and produce a whole load of yeah. Different, different kinds of guesses. And some of these will be nitrate kind of guessing. And that we definitely do not want to get into the body. So what we want to do for medical grade ozone therapy is to get harness at ozone and it's very pure form. And we do that by inputting a very pure form of Austin's, which you can get from an oxygen tank, which is, yeah. Not over 98% purity. It was a medical grade oxygen, Speaker 3: (16:14) Which has its own regulations and problems having it on oxygen clarity clinic. We have, we have ways around that. I a woman here mafia, the boom and oxygen situation. Speaker 4: (16:31) Yeah. So that so when you get up Purifill mobile oxygen and and that's drawn into the ozone then with a very specifically built or its own generator, and we call it a medical grade ozone generator because all of the parts within the ozone generator are all the parts and because, yeah, yeah. Offsides everything. So things like glass, titanium, Silicon, stainless steel yeah, ceramic these things are, have got really good zoned resistancy and, and so these are the kind of materials that you are looking for when you're, when you're going out to buy a medical ozone generator. And that's really important question to ask whoever's in back. And so it's and it also has a built in a specific way that it has a session amount of output. So with ozone therapy, basically the measurement that we use is mg per milliliter or America. Speaker 4: (17:46) They, they use gamma. And anything on the 20 mg per ML is not going to do anything. And anything over 95 is shown to be detrimental to the, to your body cells. So you don't want to go above that. So it's a very non and very specific window of effectiveness when you're using ozone therapy and and ozone therapy units are, are built that way. And because I built that way, then it's knowing that if you follow the protocols, it is known to be the most safest therapy. There are no side effects. There's only the only thing that can happen is a little bit of detox. Fine. Yep. And they also prevented Speaker 3: (18:39) Yeah. When you guys finally, okay, so, so just going back to the Ivy so you go, you have to go to an ozone clinic. Is it doctor only situation, you know, you have to be a medical doctor to do ozone therapy or how is it regulated? Speaker 4: (18:56) So yeah, different, different countries have different regulations. We're so pretty fortunate to New Zealand with, with our regulations. Yeah, as long as we're transparent and, and we're backing everything up with good science then, then we're good. And in America as ozone therapy is got, comes with messages of things surrounding the FDA. And Australia and Australia also, it's a stricter legislation, but they're academics and they're nice and bright people to refer to. And but actually in New Zealand, nobody is offering the IV ozone. So nobody. Wow. Yeah. And now the, and the reason being is the space where I was on therapy has had a bad reputation and the past is because of the IV ozone and somebody that doesn't know anything about how, you know, hasn't been trained, how to handle needles and things like that, then I mean, of course a blood ambulance is a real danger. And so if you don't know what you're doing then, then that, that's absolutely shocking. We shouldn't even go there. So it needs to be a case to me. It takes me to try and post them ministering it. So there has been a couple cases of ambulances in the past and that send your sin and not good, but it's got nothing to it. Speaker 3: (20:50) Putting needles in your body in the wrong way. Speaker 4: (20:53) So Speaker 3: (20:55) Okay, so, so Ivy's off the, off the menu and New Zealand at the moment in team past ozone, which I've read about don't do it when you're really powerful and really unfortunate if we don't do that. So what types of therapies are offered in New Zealand, for example? That, you know, like rectal some inflation. Yes. Vaginal supplication. What other ways can you get it into your body? Speaker 4: (21:25) Yeah, so so what, what we do at natural ozone is set people up for home ozone therapy and there's a few other clinics that also offer these kinds of treatments within New Zealand and the clinic environment because it's, yeah, a homos went to therapy is it's very well known to be extremely safe. I can yeah, feel very assured to offer equipment and help people set it up in their own home and, and, and getting started with it. So the best thing that you can do outside of clinic is to do the rectal insufflation. And that's because it's systematic. It's getting into your yeah, it's true. You call on and into your blood system. And that's this way for this total body exposure to the beneficial effects of ozone therapy. Speaker 3: (22:23) Sounds glamorous. Yeah. Speaker 4: (22:28) Considerably less expensive than going to a clinic. And you've basically got this equipment for life and don't even need to get colds and flus anymore, let alone chronic disease, biohacking, all of it. Yeah. Speaker 3: (22:46) rectal insufflation Is probably the most powerful that we can do in the, in home setting. So, sorry, carry on. Speaker 4: (22:54) Yeah, so it's quite straightforward. You just have a bag and, and a catheter and you'll fill the bag with with certain concentration and start off with small amount and and that connects to a a very thin and long catheter. And you can insert that on you takes about a minute. And, and that's the best to do after an enema or at the very least bowel moves Speaker 3: (23:21) After a movement. Yeah. So do, so it only takes one minute. So you don't have to lie there for an hour with this thing attached to you. Speaker 4: (23:29) No, no. It's quite comfortable. You do try to hold it, hold it. And and, and there's there, there has been otherwise of, of doing that in the past. But this is become the kind of gold of, of the men's name, Richmond's flashing. Speaker 3: (23:48) And this is the liver isn't it? Cause it goes directly to the liver when it's erectile. Speaker 4: (23:53) Yup. Yeah, yup. Yeah. Directly, directly tied in liver and helps everything flush out that way. So then there's other yeah, ways that you can administer ozone therapy. So there's the vaginal that you mentioned and you got 10 minutes and you can build up to about half, half an hour. And yeah, and, and you can minister that directly from those on generator and, and the, and that's really good cause it's actually primarily targeting the immune system and giving that a good boost. And, and any, yeah, so the, the ozone is working both systematically and locally. So basically wherever you can get it in that you, you go for the, the protocols depending on, on what issues you're trying to do. A few but just generally everybody can prevent disease by doing direct ones, deflation, system wide. Also doing saunas are excellent because we know that our skin is a biggest poorest mess it up body. So a lot through our skin and, but we also know that we can't breathe those zones. Speaker 3: (25:17) Yes. I had an idea hit out, so I wonder what is box? Speaker 4: (25:24) I get a sauna with your end. You just have you hit up, tie a towel around it. So none of the ozone is getting braids and and you can get stained soreness, tents and just sit in one of one of those in your bathroom, sit up in your bathroom and portable and yeah. And then you put the certain concentration of oxygen, pure oxygen ozone mix into the sauna, steam stoner and, and sit there. Speaker 3: (25:55) And so it comes on trains too late, so it's transdermal cool. Okay. So that's another way you can get it. And, and, and do you offer at your company the tents and the, the whole, the whole shebang for that or, Speaker 4: (26:10) Yeah. So yeah, I, yeah, basically offer all the homophone therapy accessories and gear and everything you need to get cited before that. There's also like you can administer through the ears. And we have modified stiff scopes. That's all made out of ozone resistant material, like Silicon and things. And you just put that into his and that's targeting the brain area. So that'd be good. And things like that then yeah, it's, Speaker 3: (26:44) It's directly targeting that area. So I was, I was really effective. Yeah. Was that local, that local graphs of, of just wherever there is a problem area, if you can target it, then, then it can be very effective. Okay. So, all right, let's, let's transition now into what, what ailments that can help with and we are, so let's start at the head, because you just mentioned there, what is the mechanism or you know, like, I don't wanna get too scientific, but what is the mechanism of action? Is it going through into the ear? And you mentioned also tonight us, cause my husband's got that. So I'm selfishly asking about that. How is that the place for, for tinnitus as well? And how does that work? Speaker 4: (27:30) Yeah, so I, I would actually let's take a step back and you can actually look at what is the cause of disease itself. Yeah, I'll stop there. And yeah, this is, this is where I was on therapy as kind of the biohack is goat ticket to longevity, don't get disease, but you don't really hear of people dying of nothing, you know. There's, there's usually a associated disease. So I would really, really highly recommend, I don't know if you've come across him, but Dr. Frank Shallenberger Speaker 3: (28:27) A little might be a bit, yeah, I'm working on that one. Speaker 4: (28:33) So he, he was, he was one of the forefathers of ozone therapy and in America so 40 years on he had smoked it all. He administered therapy and trained from the first guys that invented the James Bond style, ozone medical ozone generators out of America. And have messes of research university and papers backing them. He trained from them. And, and basically one of the guys that have just been administering ozone therapy in a clinic environment and seeing thousands of patients throughout the years. Yeah. W what he talks about is, is really important. He's basically going into what is the root of cools of disease itself when now when we go out and about and and we'll go to the cheapy cheapy and we'll, yeah, they'll do some bicep tastes and yeah, they might say, okay, we've got healthy lungs and we're breathing healthy ear and they'll send us home and say, we're fine. What Dr. Frank Shallenberger is saying is saying, well no, I can, I can actually run my tests and I can show that you are not actually utilizing that oxygen. You might be breathing plenty. We might be like tricking up on these beautiful mountains that we have in New Zealand and breathing really fresh air and even doing yoga and having really great lung capacity for me and whatever. But we might not have the capacity within our body to utilize that oxygen. And so he's coined this term oxygen utilization. Speaker 4: (30:35) Now it's how can be described as similarly, you know, any vitamin that we that we're told that we, we have two that were depleted, all of them. W we should take. So, so we go to the doctor and they run some tests and they say, okay, your deficient vitamin basics. And so we'll go home and we'll take sort of one of these, but you six now, just because we're taking that everyday, it doesn't actually mean that our body is, that's a really well known within like we need other kinds of vitamins also. So we can actually utilize vitamin. Don't we need the genes to be able to do the right things? Speaker 4: (31:20) So same with oxygen. Just because we're breathing, that doesn't mean that necessarily mean that our body has capacity to utilize it. I mean, certain amount we're obviously using as it would be dead and the best way. And, and that's where yeah, he, he will then run, run some kind of test where he'll is his Scott Paul Murray a certified gadget that he can actually test how well you are utilizing oxygen. So and, and it will actually run the test and it will show, okay, you're using a certain amount. And he also test amount of carbon dioxide that we're expiring. And so what does his show is if you're utilizing oxygen, if you're taking it, if your body has ability to take most of it, and then you're actually, you don't, you don't expire much of the CO2. Speaker 4: (32:24) So that's also great. New cure pump change, but you're really healthy ourselves and no, he's good. He'll link that. For example, we can go onto pub med and we'll run a search for yeah. Basically you mitochondria and aging and we'll come up with heaps and heaps of like thousands of papers and we'll also want to search for mitochondria and disease and it will come up with tens of thousands of papers. So, and it's well established that mitochondria are extremely important. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So if, if our levels of mitochondria are really good, then then actually that is a sign that we are utilizing oxygen. So for utilizing oxygen our mitochondrial functioning is, is excellent. Now what he, what Dr. Frank Shallenberger saw from all these thousands of patients over, you know, 30 years of them coming to the clinic is that Mmm, anybody that had any kind of disease, whether it be cancer or order, immune disease and any kind of disease, then he would run this test and it will show that their oxygen utilization is poor. Speaker 3: (34:06) Wow. Man. He'll be fantastic for us all to do to, so no, we were a mitochondria because they're at the basis of all but an agent. Speaker 4: (34:14) That's right. Yeah. And he will also get healthy people coming into the clinic. So that was, you know, and that also Ronald, the other tests showing that they don't have any disease and the, what his tests will show is that the oxygen utilization is excellent. You know, their body's ability to take that oxygen and at the cellular level is really, really amazing. You'll also get like some seemingly people some people that come in that that are functioning quite well and same like they're pretty healthy, but they might have a tumor in the breast for example. And interestingly that tests that he'll do will show that actually the oxygen utilization is not that great. Wow. So he's, he's what is basically showing is he can actually see if the road, to me that's the dog by looking at your oxygen utilization and and so, Speaker 3: (35:32) So what does dr Shallenberger's, he's got his book, the title of his book. Have you got that in your mind? Because it's on my list, but I haven't got there yet. The ozone, the miracle is one of the miracle of ozone miracle. That was a miracle. There we go. I was AmeriCorps. So if you want to dive deeper into dr Shallenberger's work gone. Great bit. Okay. So, okay. So he's looking at the mitochondria cause we're running at a time. You can, we're going to have to speed it up. The, so your, your ability to use oxygen. So how can a ozone Theraphy help it? Speaker 4: (36:13) Sorry, I was on therapy. It's basically directly helping with, with that uptake of oxygen. So when you get this medical grade ozone into the body, it's, it's doing two things. It will have because it cha so it changes it sites very, very quickly because it's reactive. So it will have a little bit of oxidating power and we'll go directly after you know, disease cells themselves. And we all know that disease cells do not thrive in an oxygenated [inaudible]. Same thing. The other thing I was able to do when you get into the body, it will change its state and well form peroxides these yeah, these peroxides clicked flea and honors opioids. And this has a systematic function on the body where you're, yeah, just as something similar to create an upstate of stress. When, when you exercise for example, then you're creating a certain amount of free radicals and your system has to regulate, keep those free radicals in check. That's what it says. Therefore, so, and that's really important. So when, so when you when you get done and similar to when you exercise and your antioxidant system is enhanced and your body is basically stronger so systematically as helping your body fight, whatever's wrong with it, Speaker 3: (37:58) Whatever's wrong with it. So this is, this is why it's good. So what sort of diseases or problems can it be beneficial for? If we, if we did a, a list from a to Z or you know, some of the major players Speaker 4: (38:13) And we did a list from a to Z, then you can pretty much go through absolutely everything because it's going at the Coles of diseases. Speaker 3: (38:23) Sorry, sorry guys. Carry on. My mum has a tip habit of doing that and every one of my podcasts. Speaker 4: (38:36) So mostly when, when people come to ozone therapy though, they'll call me and they've gone to the doctor and they'll be diagnosed with a chronic disease, chronic condition. And that's stuff searched out there for everything known to man. They'll come across the ozone therapy. And honestly, it's such a broad spectrum humor. I've had people come to me and I've had every kind of thing under the sun and they'll say, can this help? And they'll tell me a little bit about it and I'll and I'll, yeah. Also, you know, trick the because it's, it's, there's over 1500 articles. For example, in the American society of ozone therapy on peer reviewed studies of ozone therapy. So, you know, I always like to point people directly to the research that's been done. What's the, is there a website that C A I R R T.com. Speaker 4: (39:38) Dot com if anyone wants to go and do some research. Okay. So it helps a broad range of diseases because it's getting to the actual base cause of the down, down low and what's happening. And you can also treat so you can treat systematically by, for example, going to the clinic during the auto homeopathy or direct IB or during your the Tampax Asia. Or you can do the home ozone therapy and it's easy at Texas. It doesn't cost very much and you can do it more often and it's, and it's just as powerful if you do the rectal insufflation systematically and then you can do the local administration the, the other kinds of routes depending on what your issues are. If you've got brain issues and you can do the air insufflation, anything to do yeah, anything going on up there and the ladies. So it will not thrush out after a single, really, at the very least, you can breathe those and edit oil for any kind of blind condition. Allergies, asthma, Candido. Yeah, yeah. So, and candida like often through the ear, that's where your husband and son, your son often widespread can do that. Yeah, it's often a sign of that. And so you can actually director directly through the ear and transdermally so you can do those notes on and that's really great for heart prevent heart disease prevention, prevention and treatment. And then you can actually bag any of your limbs. Speaker 3: (41:38) The plastic bag, top thing on sale, on the internet. Yeah, Speaker 4: (41:41) Yeah. Problems with veins or just, just aches and pains nerve issues or skin, particular kinds of skin conditions to trying to get it. Then we can either bag or you can use this as an oil. So basically the ozone is howled and the, and the oil and yeah, so I've been liking that for, for 15 years now and it's amazing. Like all the time. People come along and now they'll use it and I'll go, you know, cam, I've tried everything for my ex mouth. All my psoriasis. I've tried, I've honestly tried everything under the sun, but this is the only thing that's actually worked. Likewise for any kind of skin condition and also for gum disease and tastes and things. Speaker 3: (42:40) Dentists have actually used us, you know, that was one of the first, they were the first adopters of the suite. They, because for, for training their equipment. Yeah, Speaker 4: (42:48) That's right. Yeah. So you can so it's really, really powerful at disinfecting it as it will oxides any microbes. So bacteria yeses and every nook and cranny and used in dentistry. And they can also get directly into a root canal itself. And Speaker 3: (43:16) But it's before they put a tooth on. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Speaker 4: (43:20) And, and dentistry, so, so used you can inject directly into joints just straight into your, your back and you've got a bulging disc or, or osteoarthritis in the knee. You can inject directly into the joints with those own instead of use and cortisone. Speaker 3: (43:38) Oh, Rocky. But again, you can't get that New Zealand probably Speaker 4: (43:43) You can and opened up to wine McCarthy. He offers it and fully trained and, and he does a range of ozone therapy. Speaker 3: (43:56) I have to get all those links off you show notes. Okay, so, so you've got these three molecules inside and it's, what's it actually doing? What some, so you've got either up, you know, the rectally vaginally in the ear through the oil transdermally Ivy, however you've managed to do it. What's it actually, so it's knocking out pathogens, it's taking out viruses. What's it doing in there? Speaker 4: (44:30) Yeah. So yeah, when, when it gets into the body there's two things that does there's limited effects from the ozone itself because ozone is very reactive so it changes it Cypress Cyprus quickly. So, but when it is set ozone, it will go after viruses, bacteria and oxidize them. It's very powerful oxidizer. The second thing it does is as, yeah as, as I mentioned before, it will change the state very quickly and to the proc sides. And yeah, basically getting yeah, your body into check systematically by creating that oxidate of stress, anti antioxidant, it's activated to balance out any theoretical sort of form from, from that. So keeping them in check and that has this wide systematic effect of yeah, really going at the root of cause of disease itself. And it's amazing. I tell you, well, I've had people that have been sent home, you know, various illness and told that, you know, it's so much more than I can do. Speaker 4: (45:44) And they get onto ozone therapy and the most powerful ways, and actually they do, they do really well. And if they get enough training, this is why we wanted to share all this information. Tell you something amazing that's going on with coronavirus at the moment and ozone therapy. I'm like the yeah, so the therapy has it has always been very, we're very well known treatment for infectious diseases. So and it was proven successful with SOLs. Oh, he had success with AIDS and we've got sort of studies on that and you can there's, there's one doctor, dr Robert Rowan. I highly recommend that you follow him on Facebook cause you have a time and now he actually went to West Africa and he had, you know, mess. He had real kind of your bureaucratic and get through and push him, push his way through the medical establishment there. But he was allowed to oversee the administration of direct. I was on auto hand me ups, the two, five Ebola cases and, and had really great success. And where as you know, there's this very made a coma if you come in and shut them down. Right? Yeah. It's an incredible story. Basically who actually contracted Speaker 3: (47:30) It weren't allowed to get their, and some of them died. And the ones who managed to the health workers who managed to get the ozone therapy survived. And this highlights a lot of the problems. Speaker 4: (47:43) Yeah. He's actually in New York city at the moment and he is administering ozone therapy to everybody that wants to yeah. Once he, he's right in the heart of New York city. So, you know, that's, that's what he's doing is offering ozone treatment for anyone that wants it if they can't afford it. Because we all know how the healthcare system is as an American. So he's, he's offering it for free if you can't afford it. And and, and people that are in the early stages, if they've been told that they should be in the hospital and on an NG beta, then legally he's putting everything at risk by trading them and the kind of suppressing that. But if, if you're in the early stages and then he'll treat people, but what's happening and places like Spain and Italy, also China there are, there they are treating we kind of have 19 patients and hospitals and coming out of Italy now is they've actually on their third report and they're just following the, the progress of COVID19 patients in a hospital environment. Speaker 4: (49:01) So two hospitals are in the study and now the retina, the stirred report of 75 covid 19 patients and what it's showing so the, so when, yeah, just understanding that if you go to hospital yeah, then you're already not in a very good way. So and actually for example, they're treating these people the, and they're and you can see all the statistics and the bladed it all out, but there's basically 14, nine non-integrated patients that that they've seen and of of those yeah, that stuff saying really messages of improvement. Yeah. For the ones that have been. Speaker 4: (50:04) And eventually, yeah, the Pope has really recorded it at all. I can give you the study that's saying a hundred percent efficiency for the, for the patients that were non intubated and in the early stages of COVID19. So they're calling it stage one and stage two. If you get in that early stages, then and you treated with the ozone therapy and getting them Derek direct divey then that getting bittering getting sent home basically there if you're intubated there, there are some that got extra debated so they got you know this is really super invasive. By the time you've got something stuck down your throat, then you're, you're already in extremely deep trouble. But I've managed to get some of them off there if they've managed to finish this round of I was in therapy treatment. They were, they showing that there were overall nine people that did die, that were in this hospital environment of the 73 patients that were treated. But those nine people, they were also showing that they didn't actually, they were in such bad state that they can actually finish. Speaker 3: (51:25) They were already intubated and they were already, they couldn't have enough of the ozone. It was too little, too late. Speaker 4: (51:31) But also what the shine as said only takes five sessions of this ozone. Oxygen therapy are painful to get. Right. So it's really quick. And that's also what I find with people that come to me, the various problems, chronic diseases being going through everything so long, they'll get onto ozone therapy and then quickly start getting better very, very quickly. Speaker 3: (51:53) This is super exciting. So we're going to have to wrap up again cause we've, we've, we've done a little, I know this is a big subject day and this, I was trying to push it along a little bit, but I wanted to get to the good stuff. Okay. So I want to get some of those links off you and, and you know, Dr. Wayne McCarthy and dr Robert Rowan. Perhaps you can give me the links. I can put them in the show notes. And your, so we can people reach out to you to find out more about what you are offering your machines. Where's the best place? Speaker 4: (52:28) So I'm a naturalozone.co.nz and all my details are, yeah. On the website. Just quickly, I'll just want to mention what's also extremely relevant in this, this time is actually our air resonators here, air ozone when you're not in the room. Because it's, we're basically, yeah. Going after really powerful, strong concentration of ozone and blasting a room. Then it will remove all viruses, bacteria, pathogens. It's week. Speaker 3: (53:08) No, you could, if someone's being like, you know, in a, in a office environment or factory environment or wherever someone's had the coronavirus or whatever, and you want to make sure you're home, you want to kill the virus, you get a, you'd get one of these, the room, get out of Speaker 4: (53:26) The room while you're doing it. Right? Yeah. And you know, every, like, honestly, every single public area, if it's used safely and you've, you know, after half an hour you can enter back into the room. Those zones dissipated. It's done. It's saying it's oxidized, it's environmentally friendly. It doesn't leave any chemical byproducts. I'm worried about that. That's right. You know, they're like, they're spraying everything with bleach. Speaker 3: (53:55) I want to go back to the gym, but I'm not going back to the gym. Not because of the Corona, but because of the chemicals that they're all spraying around everywhere. Speaker 4: (54:02) We've had this in daycare centers, I'll run it at night when everybody's gone, gone home. And this was before this all hit. But just to stop this spread of flus and colds and we've actually shown 30% reduction and yeah, colds and flus within the kids and stuff. And yeah, so cars, houses, what we're doing is becoming home with our groceries and sticking everything in a box. And I've just got these really small ozone generators and you just put the end of the tube in there and run it for a half an hour and all get into going to try and get touch all the surfaces. If you can get the high concentration, then it is proven that there is no microbe, that it's resistant to ozone Speaker 3: (54:53) Shoot. That is powerful come so that we can really, really protect yourself from whatever else. Speaker 4: (55:00) Yeah. So when, so when all this crisis set my phones yeah, it's just, it's still a, there's still a lot, not a lot of people that really know about it. And also this is kind of you out there are ozone, it's dangerous as bad if you breathe it, you're going to die and things like that. And all we're saying is if you cutting safety labels and everything, and if you, if you operate this machine safely, Speaker 3: (55:30) Every, everything is dangerous. If you use it the wrong way, car is dangerous. If you don't follow the rules on the road, you know that that should not be prohibited from us, from, from using it in, in the, in that when it's going to actually benefit their health. Speaker 4: (55:47) Correct. Yeah. And not, and not ruin the environment, you know, so, so it'd be the penetration than anything else in the market that we can see actually, because it's because it's a guest that we'll get to just to see the hidden areas and things. So Speaker 3: (56:11) What about ozone water? Just last thing. So putting ozone into the water Speaker 4: (56:17) Water is amazing for us. Yeah. And yeah, so we actually have just small resonate ozone generators. If all you want to do is drink ozonated water, it's getting enhanced active oxygen into the body. We should be drinking water anyway. Why not super charge oxygenated water. You can drink up to eight classes a day and you start off slowly and you and you build up drinking on an empty stomach and it's really great energy boost. Boost your immune system also on a water. The students, you know, the hand sanitizer is outside of all the supermarkets at the moment on a hand and these pop paper was skin conditions and things like that. We've got studies that show that ozonated water is significantly more effective than hand sanitizer and it's, and it's good for you. Yeah. Yeah. It's not going to dry. Our skin is actually really good for us. Yeah. Speaker 3: (57:30) Wow. That's powerful. Okay, so everybody go to naturalozone.co.nz. Check out all the machines that come here and what the different applications and you can, you can educate people to people. Buy something, a machine of you, you can educate them in the use of it and do that virtually or how do you do, do that? Speaker 4: (57:52) Yeah. Yeah. So give me a call if you're unsure where to start. And join our newsletter and we will have, we'll be coming out with more videos soon. And we also have oxygen concentrators when, when, what happened, when all this, when we started to go into lockdown because I have oxygen concentrators and stop cause I used in conjunction with industrialized zone and I was doing therapy then. Everybody started panic buying, well my oxygen concentrators. And we, we stopped up for on public and, and, and generally people are getting these as if you've got a lung condition and breathing oxygen or see if you've got SIO PD or if you're an S medic or something like that. Having a oxygen concentrator is a really good idea. Speaker 3: (58:54) Yeah. We've got one extra tour, hyperbaric just to top up, you know, mum's levels, you know, if she doesn't want to get into the chamber cause it's a big mission. Just to, just to have a top off, you know, it's a really good thing to have I think, and especially if you're going to get sick or anything, so. Speaker 4: (59:12) Sure. Speaker 3: (59:14) Okay. So you've got those as well. So you've got a whole re array of, of different devices and you know, the rectal staff and all that. You can explain it cause people would be like, how do I do that? Speaker 4: (59:26) Yeah, right. That's right. Yeah. But yeah, like usually, yeah, if you want to prevent disease and live a long and healthy life, I would really say, you know, at home I was on therapy is biohacking dream. And, and will save you lots of money in the, in the long term, cause you won't need to go to the doctor anymore and you won't need to get some fluids. Speaker 3: (59:51) But prevention isn't it? That's what we're all about, not being there, Speaker 4: (59:56) But usually what's happening. People get disease and they find out about ozone therapy that come to me. Right. But if you're not comfortable with our zone, at the very least drink that water, it's really good for us. Yeah. And, and drink that daily. Speaker 3: (01:00:11) Put it in your ear like that. That can't be too painful. Speaker 4: (01:00:15) Yeah. Speaker 3: (01:00:16) That's fantastic. Kim, thank you so much for your time and your information. I'll grab all those links off you. So naturalozone.co.nz. You've got any questions for Kim? Michelle, she'll answer those heavily for you. Get this word out there. We need to be sharing. This is why we have the show so we can share great information with each other and get, get that to the people that need it. So thanks very much for your time today. Come any last words before we go, Speaker 4: (01:00:41) But just, just thanks so much, Lisa, for having me on the show. Really enjoyed talking to you and yeah, look forward to your upcoming podcast and reading your book. Speaker 3: (01:00:51) Great. And now that we're connected, we'll be dangerous. Speaker 4: (01:00:54) Yeah, absolutely. Speaker 1: (01:00:57) That's it this week for pushing the limits. Be sure to write, review, and share with your friends and head over and visit Lisa and her team at lisatamati.com.

Dr. Sherr believes that Hyperbaric Oxygen Therapy (HBOT) -- the administration of 100% oxygen at greater than atmospheric pressure -- is one of the most powerful ways to decreasing inflammation, accelerate wound healing, and optimise both physical and mental performance. He is one of the few HBOT providers in the USA that creates personalised treatment plans for patients that include cutting edge & dynamic HBOT protocols, adjunctive technologies, laboratory testing, and nutritional interventions. Dr. Sherr is the Director of Integrative Hyperbaric Medicine and Health Optimization at Hyperbaric Medical Solutions, in addition to operating his own independent hyperbaric consultation practice and performing in-person consultations in the San Francisco Bay Area (where he lives). Dr. Sherr aims to create access and educate all those who may benefit from HBOT through telemedicine consulting, advocacy, and education practice worldwide. I wanted to share this second episode with Dr Sherr (he was on back in episode 77) to go even deeper into the little known facts about hyperbaric oxygen therapy like making epigenetic shifts, angiogenesis, stem cell production, lymph drainage and how it influences around 8000 genes in the body.   Hyperbaric oxygen  therapy was a major component in my mother, Isobel's rehabilitation after a devastating brain injury over 4 years ago. Isobel was left with hardly any higher functioning, the brain damage was so severe she was unable to control her body in any meaningful fashion, had virtually no memory, no speech and was let in the . stage of a toddler at the age of 74. But after three months in hospital and after months studying hyperbaric oxygen therapy and searching for somewhere to get her access to it I was lucky enough to find a chamber to use.  What followed was in my opinion nothing short of miraculous. and now after thousands of hours of training, combined with supplementation and diet changes and over 250 hyperbaric sessions later. Mum is completely normal again, can walk, read, write, do all her normal daily duties and is living a full life again, her doctor saying is a one in a million comeback story. This is why I was so excited to get one of the worlds leading experts on this therapy to speak on my podcast and to explain much clearer  and better than I ever could, just what the mechanisms of HBOT are and the benefits, limitations and research going into this area of medicine.   My book "Relentless" which is out now on my website and everywhere good books are sold shares our journey with hyperbaric among other adjunctive therapies.   We would like to thank our sponsors for this show: For more information on Lisa Tamati's programs, books and documentaries please visit www.lisatamati.com   For Lisa's online run training coaching go to https://www.lisatamati.com/page/runni... Join hundreds of athletes from all over the world and all levels smashing their running goals while staying healthy in mind and body.   Lisa's Epigenetics Testing Program https://www.lisatamati.com/page/epige... measurement and lifestyle stress data, that can all be captured from the comfort of your own home   For Lisa's Mental Toughness online course visit: https://www.lisatamati.com/page/minds...   Lisa's third book has just been released. It's titled "Relentless - How A Mother And Daughter Defied The Odds" Visit: https://relentlessbook.lisatamati.com/ for more Information   ABOUT THE BOOK: When extreme endurance athlete, Lisa Tamati, was confronted with the hardest challenge of her life, she fought with everything she had. Her beloved mother, Isobel, had suffered a huge aneurysm and stroke and was left with massive brain damage; she was like a baby in a woman's body. The prognosis was dire. There was very little hope that she would ever have any quality of life again. But Lisa is a fighter and stubborn. She absolutely refused to accept the words of the medical fraternity and instead decided that she was going to get her mother back or die trying. This book tells of the horrors, despair, hope, love, and incredible experiences and insights of that journey. It shares the difficulties of going against a medical system that has major problems and limitations. Amongst the darkest times were moments of great laughter and joy. Relentless will not only take the reader on a journey from despair to hope and joy, but it also provides information on the treatments used, expert advice and key principles to overcoming obstacles and winning in all of life's challenges. It will inspire and guide anyone who wants to achieve their goals in life, overcome massive obstacles or limiting beliefs. It's for those who are facing terrible odds, for those who can't see light at the end of the tunnel. It's about courage, self-belief, and mental toughness. And it's also about vulnerability... it's real, raw, and genuine. This is not just a story about the love and dedication between a mother and a daughter. It is about beating the odds, never giving up hope, doing whatever it takes, and what it means to go 'all in'. Isobel's miraculous recovery is a true tale of what can be accomplished when love is the motivating factor and when being relentless is the only option.   Here's What NY Times Best Selling author and Nobel Prize Winner Author says of The Book: "There is nothing more powerful than overcoming physical illness when doctors don't have answers and the odds are stacked against you. This is a fiercely inspiring journey of a mother and daughter that never give up. It's a powerful example for all of us." —Dr. Bill Andrews, Nobel Prize Winner, author of Curing Aging and Telomere Lengthening.   "A hero is someone that refuses to let anything stand in her way, and Lisa Tamati is such an individual. Faced with the insurmountable challenge of bringing her ailing mother back to health, Lisa harnessed a deeper strength to overcome impossible odds. Her story is gritty, genuine and raw, but ultimately uplifting and endearing. If you want to harness the power of hope and conviction to overcome the obstacles in your life, Lisa's inspiring story will show you the path." —Dean Karnazes, New York Times best selling author and Extreme Endurance Athlete.   Transcript of the Podcast:   Speaker 1: (00:01) Welcome to pushing the limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential with your host, Lisa [inaudible] brought to you by lisatamati.com. Speaker 2: (00:12) Well hi everyone. Fantastic to have you back again on pushing the limits today. I have a fantastic interview with Dr. Scott Scheer, who is a physician out of the United States. Now Scott, Dr. Scott has been on my podcast previously and it was one of the most popular episodes, so I'm really, really privileged to have him back on. Yeah, Dr. Scott is a pioneer in health optimization medicine and in this episode we really going and doing a deep dive into one of my favorite therapies, hyperbaric oxygen therapy, but we're also going to be talking about meta below mix in the hollow biome. Yeah, Dr. Scott is a position certified in the health optimization medicine and in hyperbaric same time and he uses both of these protocols and adjunctive technologies. Uh, he's a father of four and he's an incredible, uh, really outside of the box thinker and I love his approach to his work. Speaker 2: (01:04) So I'm hope you enjoy this episode with Dr. Scott shoe. Just a reminder, my book [inaudible] is now out. And, uh, my story with my mom was all, uh, one of the cornerstone therapies was hyperbaric oxygen therapy and I was, it was wonderful to connect with Dr. Scott about that previously and to learn all about hyperbaric. So I hope you enjoy this interview and if you want to grab the book while you're at it, he don't have it to my website, lisatamati.com and there was a lengthier under the shop for the books, so check them all out. Thanks for listening and we'll see you again soon. And now over to Dr. Scott. Well, hi everyone. Lisa Tamati here and very excited to have you on board again today for an exciting episode. I have Dr. Scott Scheer with me who is a hyperbaric specialist, uh, from the States and he is, uh, had been on my show before and he is now coming back on here. It was one of the most popular episodes on the whole show. So I'm really, really excited to have Dr. Scott Beck and he's actually sitting in his own hyperbaric chamber right now and doing the interview from inside his own hyperbaric. So Dr. Scott, how are you doing? Speaker 3: (02:16) I'm doing well. Can you hear me okay, Lisa? Speaker 2: (02:18) Yeah, it's not too bad. We might have to ramp up the volume when we're doing the either thing, but we'll give it a go. See, here we go. Okay, Speaker 3: (02:26) sounds good. Speaker 2: (02:27) I'm sorry. Speaker 3: (02:31) Yes, I'm in my own chamber. I, um, I have my own mild hyperbaric units. Mild hyperbaric therapy is defined as hyperbaric therapy, less than or 1.3 atmospheres or more superficial than that. Um, and so these chambers go to about 15 feet of seawater equivalent. Um, and these chambers are approved for home use. Um, and I use them for a lot of different reasons, but personally I use it for just overall health and wellness, cognitive capacity enhancements, muscle recovery, jet lag, and a couple of other other indications. The chamber is nice because it's a triangular type of chamber, which means that you can actually sit up in it and not have to lie down completely. And I've been using it a lot these days, given pandemics and all those kinds of things and doing my best to stay healthy along with everybody else. At least a lot of other people that are not eating junk food all the time. Speaker 2: (03:32) Yeah. And we'll get into that a little bit later that year. Um, no amount of boy hacking all out to a good dog bed diet. So we definitely need to focus on that. But, so Dr. Scott, so I have my own hyperbaric chamber. I go in and every pretty much, you know, three or four times a week at least my one goes up to 1.5 atmospheres. And, but you also have a clinic that goes, uh, has, um, hyperbaric chambers that go, uh, too high up precious. Can you explain a little bit difference between the mild hyperbaric and the medical grade, if you like hyperbaric sort of things? Speaker 3: (04:09) Yeah, sure. So hyperbaric therapy in the United States is approved for 14 different conditions and all of those conditions have been studied at two atmospheres or greater. And so all the medical conditions for hyperbaric therapy cannot be treated in mild hyperbaric units. They can only be treated in, in units that are more medical grade. The medical grade chambers go down. Uh, there's different types of medical grade chambers. The most common, it's called a motto place or a single unit occupancy chamber. That chamber goes down to somewhere between 2.4 to three atmospheres of pressure. Three atmospheres of pressure is the equivalent of 66 feet of seawater. What's interesting about 66 feet of sea water equivalent is that when they, that's actually where they've done studies showing that at that level you no longer need red blood cells in circulation to get enough oxygen diffused into the plasma where the liquid of your blood at that level and maintain your physiologic functions. Speaker 3: (05:10) So it's a, it's a significant amount of oxygen that we can get into circulation. And so, um, what we're doing in a chamber is obviously driving more oxygen into circulation. And that's kind of like the quick and dirty of what's happening. When you go in there. The heart chambers are typically going down to deeper pressures, um, two atmospheres or above. Mmm. And then the soft chambers, um, depending on the type of chamber you have, it could go down to 1.3. Some of them go to 1.5. It depends on the country and the location. Well, I think what's more important for people is not that type of chamber really. But because some soft chambers can actually go to very deep pressures and heart chamber go to any pressure, they can go to superficial chamber pressures and they can go to deep pressure. What's most important, I think is knowing is treated or what the difference in treatments is depending on the pressure. Speaker 3: (06:03) Mmm. We think of neurologic pressure. So brain and spinal cord related pressures being somewhere between 1.3 and 2.0 and we think of things outside the central nervous system, soft tissue, um, and sort of overall hello. Outside of the central nervous system. A 2.0 and greater in general. No. From a like detoxification, lymphatic perspective, you can get benefits at both at 1.3 to 2.0 along with a 2.0 or greater. And from a STEM cell release perspective, the further down you go, the deeper you go, the more STEM cells that are released. So the indications fall into those two basic categories of neurologic versus non neurologic conditions. Although you can modulate the salt chambers to help you with some non neurologic conditions as well. You are getting more oxygen in circulation, right? So you are getting the ability to enhance your flow of oxygen to tissues regardless of the chamber and regardless of the pressure actually, although some pressure is needed. Mmm. And then you are helping with detoxification as well, no matter what pressures you're using, Speaker 2: (07:19) but it's more optimal at the, at the higher pressures. So, Speaker 3: (07:23) okay. Speaker 2: (07:24) So for neuro separate brain injury, like um, you know, not my story with my mum, um, 1.5 was what, you know, we were recommended is an ideal, uh, pressure for, for brain injury. So, so you're saying the neurological, the problems that people have actually better at the lower or the a then this oppression. So I should say, and for things like, um, Mmm diabetic wounds or um, healing injuries, uh, boons, that type of thing at a higher pressure would be more beneficial, but, or hyperbaric will help with detoxification. And was the limps and speeding up the healing hearing properties, the STEM cell release, is that higher when it's deeper, uh, pressure or high pressure? Speaker 3: (08:11) Yes. Yeah. The deeper you go, the more STEM cells are released because it's related to how much oxygen is being infused. The more oxygen infused, the more STEM cells get released. It's a, it's kind of a, it's kind of, it's a direct relationship. Speaker 2: (08:27) So do you know the, um, so I remember from the last podcast you're saying, you know, up to 12 times the amount of oxygen can be taken up into the body. Um, it is sad. So it says three atmospheres, there'll be 12 times in it at one and a half atmospheres. That would be, I don't know, somewhere in that for some six, seven times the amount of Mmm. Uh, oxygen that's diffusing. Now, the difference with a hyperbaric is actually, you know, like people will say, well, you know, I put an SPO two of my little thing on my finger and it says I'm 98%. I'm saturated with oxygen, right? How do I get more oxygen in? So what is the different mechanism between normal barracks, uh, pressure and hyperbaric pressure? Speaker 3: (09:16) Yeah, it's a question I get a lot, Lisa, and I'm sure you get it a lot too. So a pulse oximeter, it's something you put it on your finger and that measures the arterial oxygen saturation of your red blood cells. So you, red blood cells are what typically carry oxygen from your lungs. When you take a deep breath [inaudible] after going out of your lungs, as they go through the rest of your body and they to release oxygen so that you can make energy without oxygen, you cannot make ATP, which is the energy, energy currency of, of our body. And so you're right, our red blood cell carrying capacity for oxygen at sea level, he's actually quite good. That's when you put a pulsox machine on your finger. You get 97 to a hundred percent if you have normal lungs. So hyperbaric therapy is going to saturate any more sites on the red blood cells where they can carry oxygen. Speaker 3: (10:08) If there is like 97% sites, I already occupied those extra 3% will be occupied. But what's actually happening and the power of hyperbaric oxygen therapy in its ability to change this gaseous form of oxygen into a liquid form that actually diffuses directly into the plasma or the liquid of our blood and the liquid of our blood has very little oxygen in it at sea level. And we can diffuse up to 12 times or actually even more than that, a deeper pressures than three ATA, oxygen in circulation. And it's that extra oxygen you cannot get without having also been under pressure at the same time as getting more oxygen as well. Speaker 2: (10:49) So then this is really powerful when it comes to say injuries where uh, there's been a blockage to the blood supply to a certain area so that whether that's from a heart attack or a stroke or you know, Mmm. Or even as I presume with crush injuries and certain things like this we are not able to get, Lisa was a blocked in some way that you can actually perfuse the area around the injury with oxygen despite it not going through the blood vessels. Is that, is there a correct way of explaining it or Speaker 3: (11:25) know? The way I like to think about it is that you have all this oxygen that's now in circulation and it's kind of like oxygen, just like osmosis. We'll go to the area where there's less of it, so the more oxygen you have in a blood vessel, the more of that oxygen is going to get into the tissue around the blood vessel so you don't have to have as much vascular density potentially to get oxygen to that tissue because we've found a few, so much oxygen inside of that tissue bed itself that it could potentially factor as a way of saving tissue in the acute setting. So like you said, like the acute ischemia is the acute hypoxia is or low oxygen safe that happened with a heart attack. Well you have a lack of a blood flow in a coronary artery or a stroke. Speaker 3: (12:09) We have lack of blood flow, an artery in the brain or a spinal cord injury. When you have arteries that are actually broken you can actually get more oxygen to that tissue because you can diffuse more into the tissue bed around the injured blood vessel. It was also good is that when you have an acute injury there's also going to be a lot of swelling and actually injury too. The vessels that are going to cause leakage of that fluid and swelling. And actually in the chamber you actually constrict down blood vessels a little bit and that constriction actually helps you and prevents some of that fluid from releasing. And for some of that swelling to happen, even though you have this constriction of the blood vessel, you've also net had a significant delivery of oxygen to that tissue regardless because we've had all of that oxygen diffuse into the plasma. So Mmm, oxygen carrying capacity in normal settings without pressure is only dependent on how many red blood cells you have. But in a chamber we're pressurizing your body, pressurizing your breath or your whole body really. But when you take a deep breath, that pressurized oxygen is driven into the plasma or your liquid of the blood and that liquid of your, of your blood, it can go much further and diffuse much further into tissues outside of blood vessels as well. Speaker 2: (13:26) So for an example was, um, you know, my mom's story with the aneurysm. If I had managed, and of course at this stage I didn't know anything about Harbor about when this first happened, but if I'd been able to get her into a chamber immediately after the event occurred, uh, the cause the inflammation obviously with a broad love and Brian tissue mixing causes inflammation in the skull. Yeah. Um, that would have been hugely beneficial if I've managed to get her in a few times immediately after the event. So after she was stable, yes. Obviously, yeah, Speaker 3: (14:03) being stable. So I have some people, I just like to be very clear, you should go to a hospital. Did you have a stroke or you will have a heart attack and don't go to your local hyperbaric provider once you're stabilized. Yes. Um, there are some indications that the sooner that you can get treated in a chamber, the more oxygen you can get to your brain to a certain degree. I mean, not huge amounts. You don't want to go down to three atmospheres because that could be dangerous for your brain, but oxygen to your brain, oxygen to your heart after an acute event is going to save tissue in your brain and save tissue in your heart. [inaudible] they've even done studies looking at people that are getting bypass procedures, coronary bypass procedures. And if they're doing this, they get into a hyperbaric chamber right before, um, they save tissue in their heart so they, they have more harder to function, have better neurologic function after a coronary artery bypass grafting procedure. Speaker 2: (14:56) Wow. So, so Dr. Scott, like why is there any place in the world where this is offered in the ICU? You know, in the acute setting where people are coming in with major injuries or strokes or heart attacks or this type of thing where it's actually used as a part of the syrupy and if not, why not? Why is it not everywhere? Speaker 3: (15:17) Well to do acute care, hyperbaric therapy, it takes very specialized capability because if you're going to be in there with attendance or you have IVs going and you have others drugs you need to give, it's, it's definitely a specialized service. Um, in Japan, China and Russia, it's used much more in the acute setting than it is in the United States. The U S it has, and it still is used for acute trauma. So if you have like a traumatic ischemia, like we have a traumatic injury to one of your soft tissue areas, for example, it can be used. Um, but in general, um, it's not used as often in the trauma setting in the, in the U S as it is in other countries, especially China, Russia and Japan. Speaker 2: (16:05) Right. Okay. And it's not, it's not used here either and it's not even approved. Is it on the, in America, is it an approved treatment for, um, neurological events? Speaker 3: (16:18) There's no neurologic indication that's covered right now in the United States. Wow. Yeah. Speaker 2: (16:23) Even though it is right, Speaker 3: (16:24) I'm going to change that. And I mean the one that has the had the most, I think research behind it in the most interest is traumatic brain injury and concussion. There is definitely some good studies from across the world. M a U S showing how hyperbaric therapy can help people recover from concussion and traumatic brain injuries, which is another name for concussion really either in the short term and like from an acute concussion or even from hello term symptoms that may not go away. Speaker 2: (16:53) Yeah, absolutely. So we were talking about like there's different things here that are going on. You've got, it's detecting the inflammation is producing more STEM cells. It's a, it's Oh, sorry. Knocking off senescent cells isn't it? Which are your old cells that are not doing much of anything. Speaker 3: (17:15) Yeah, they're called the zombie cells. Right. So, um, can we, I like to think about hyperbaric therapy is, is relatively simply, there's four things that we do in the chamber. The first thing we do is we reverse hypoxia. We've been already talking about that. We reverse low oxygen States by getting more oxygen into circulation and over the longterm a protocol of hyperbaric therapy, create new blood vessels in those areas that have been injured. We're going to play games and then maintain the ability to get blood flow to that tissue over the long term. That's the first thing, reversing hypoxia. The second thing is decreasing inflammation. It does that immediately by constructing down the blood vessels like we talked about, but also over the longterm. It has the ability to shift our epigenetics, change how our body, our DNA expresses certain proteins that are responsible for inflammation. Speaker 3: (18:07) Things like TNF alpha, I'll one L six I'll eight and others. The third thing it does is releases a massive number of STEM cells. Those STEM cells all released throughout the body and they hone or they go to areas where there is more inflammation or there's more need for STEM cells to go to those areas and regenerate them. The next thing that happens is that there is, especially in higher oxygen environments, we have the ability to kill bugs, kill bacteria, fungus, and potentially even viruses. A deeper pressures in the chamber. So senescence cell populations look like they do get decreased or they do go down. We're not exactly sure how that's happening. We don't know if that's happening because those cells are being regenerated or if those cells are being killed off and either way is good for the body really. Because when they stick around and they're not replicating, and there we have a high association with cancer, with degenerative disease. Yeah. With aging overall. So senescent cells aren't cool in general. So we want those to go away. Uh, we don't know if that's because new STEM cells are coming and just the other ones are dying or if we're now getting more oxygen to the tissue. And so those cells are getting enough oxygen to regenerate their mitochondria and start making energy more effectively, which is where we make energy in ourselves. We're not sure. Speaker 2: (19:39) So the senescent cells are basically cells that have had past their use by date really. And they're not doing much of anything except causing trouble in the body, causing inflammation, causing changes, perhaps even, uh, in closing cancers and so on. Um, so it's really good to be getting rid of those. You mentioned the, um, I was six. Yeah. I are six from memory as one of the ones that they talking about in the Cobra, uh, scenario a that that's so interleukin six is, can you explain, um, I mean obviously we don't know whether it's good for coven Mmm. But is this potentially something that if someone has the Corona virus that they can potentially look at doing to stop the cytokine storm that's actually killing the people? Speaker 3: (20:30) Well, we're actually looking into it now. I have several colleagues around the United States that are starting with clinical studies to look at how hyperbaric therapy I can work on two fronts. It can work as a way to get more oxygen to the system as we've been describing it, because one of the things that's happening in covert is that they're getting very, very hypoxic. They're getting very low oxygen levels and we think this has something to do with destruction of the red blood cells or the inability of red blood cells to carry oxygen as effectively. So again, we can bypass that by being in a chamber like I am right now and pressurizing around you. And then as a result of that pressurization, I'm getting more oxygen in circulation regardless of how many red blood cells I have working or not, how many hemoglobin molecules I have working or not. Speaker 3: (21:16) So that's one area that we're looking at is how hyperbaric therapy can work. The other area that we're looking at is as, as as an anti-inflammatory. So it does have the ability to downregulate those inflammatory cytokines, one of them being IO six. So maybe helping with that cytokine storm at the same time. We also know for other studies over the years that hyperbaric therapy is and immuno modulator, it helps the immune system function better. Um, so we think in the early part of the process, maybe if coven 19 we don't know yet for sure, but it may help to support the immune system and allow it to sort of weather the storm better as opposed to not weathering it as well. So it's a lot of conjecture right now, Lisa, you know, we don't know for sure how it works or if it's going to work, but there are definitely some of my colleagues around the U S and around the world that are looking at how hyperbaric therapy might be a helpful adjunct to conventional care. Speaker 3: (22:16) Maybe prevent people from getting intubated or being on ventilators, which would be a great thing. And so they're looking at that as another having you, and they're also looking at pressurizing the hoods, the hoods that you were in a hyperbaric chamber as a way to get more oxygen into the system without being an hyperbaric chamber as well. So yeah, I've posted a little bit about this on my Instagram because I just find these really intriguing. There is actually one company that's looking to retrofit airplanes. Airplanes are usually pressurized at 8,000 feet above sea level, so they're actually hypoxic environments. There's lower oxygen on and off on an airplane. That's your breathing as opposed to being at sea level. Wow. But what they can do is that they can reverse their pressurization and actually pressurize it. Like a hyperbaric environment. No, you couldn't fly with a plane like this because it would be too heavy, but you can keep it on the ground and and make it a hyperbaric chamber. And you know those oxygen masks that come from the ceiling already, right? So they could use those oxygen masks as a way to get more oxygen into circulation. So this is just one of those sort of crazy ideas. But it's a really interesting idea where you can actually retrofit airplanes to be hyperbaric chambers. Wow. Speaker 2: (23:31) Because that's one of the reasons we get jet lag, isn't it? Because we're, we're, we're at this, um, you know, equivalent of 8,000 feet or 2,500 meters. Mmm. Right? So we're just, we were actually coming out with a bit of an altitude situation where you've actually not got enough oxygen and that's adding to the fact that you've been traveling for how many hours and sitting still and not oxygenating. Anyway, Speaker 3: (23:55) there's the circadian rhythm piece of it, but you are at low oxygen levels and you are at higher risk for jet lag and infection too, so that's why you have a higher risk for infection when you fly. Not so much because of the sanitation on the plane. Although yeah, the air itself on a plane isn't the cleanest. Yeah, and I'm hoping that one of the things that happens with this whole covert thing is that the air on planes becomes cleaner than it is now. That more is coming from the outside of the plane and be less being research related, but in in in essence the low oxygen environment is, is definitely not helping from your health perspective and like the Dreamliners. Some of the newer planes are pressurized to 6,000 feet above. See instead of the 8,000 you said it helps with jet lag and you add on circadian rhythm changes or helping urge on your circadian rhythms to be in the, the times when you're going on it's going to help significantly and that's what new plans are trying to do and that's a new health. Your hotel rooms are also trying to do as well, new hotel rooms with new lighting and things like that that are happening, which is super cool. But in essence, yes, the airplane itself is a hypo H Y P O Barrick environments. And we can make it and retrofit it to be a hyperbaric environment as well, which, so if you have any extra seven 30 sevens hanging around, let me know and we can work on it. Speaker 2: (25:14) There you go. We can got Richard put them together. That sounds really good because flying is one of a really big danger to our health and we've, we've seen the effects of covert going through airplanes, you know, all that sort of, um, um, I just wanted to, to touch on a couple of years, NGO Genesis. Can you explain what angiogenesis is and what is actually happening there in regards to Hochberg? Speaker 3: (25:42) Yeah. So angiogenesis is the creation of new blood vessels. And in a hyperbaric chamber, that acute infusion of, of oxygen, it's going to flood the body with more oxygen, but it's not going to create new blood vessels. What happens after a protocol call of hyperbaric therapy is that we have these epigenetic shifts, we have these shifts and expression of DNA and that DNA expression is shifted in a way that more blood vessels are created because of some of the various factors that are released under pressure and under a high oxygen conditions. Those are things like VEGF, which is a very common blood vascular growth factor and others. And we have these new blood vessels that form and they tend to form in areas where there is hypoxic tissue or there is low oxygen in tissue. They tend to form an areas where there have been injuries in the past. And so these new blood vessels which are created allow the sustainability of the results on the effects of hyperbaric therapy to be a longer term play. Speaker 2: (26:43) So if you have a heart problem, so you have to ha, you know, you've got a blockage in one of your, your arteries. Um, is this a possible way to get around that blockage without surgery in conjunction with surgery over the longer term enough stations here. Speaker 3: (27:01) So we're talking about collateralization of blood vessels, which which would, what I mean by that is that that's the medical term of you basically create collaterals around blockages and that's what a bypass is, right? A bypass procedure is creating ways to go around blockages. It's like, it's like going off the on ramp and taking the service road like around traffic, uh, that stopped and then going back on the service road back onto the freeway after the traffic is over kind of deal. That's a good way to describe it. What a collateral would be like a collateral road. And so hyperbaric therapy can help you create those. And we don't know about the heart specifically though because we haven't done the studies to know. But we do know from the studies that have been done that there is an increase in vascular density in the heart. There's an increase in vascular density in the brain after a protocol of therapy. And so as a result of that, you will have the ability to get more oxygen to tissue because you have more density of blood vessels. No, we haven't done the study looking at people with blocked blood vessels to see what happens under hyperbaric conditions. It just hasn't happened. But the conjecture that we have is that it would potentially help without collateralization. It goes off roads, service road kinds of ideas. Speaker 2: (28:18) Yeah. Going around, I heard, um, that DHEA is an interesting one for the main, at the uh, uh, erectile dysfunction can be helped with hyperbaric oxygen therapy, creating new new blood PA angiogenesis for that sort of a problem. Is that correct? Speaker 3: (28:35) Yeah, it's the same deal. I mean the, the physiology of hyperbaric therapy, it goes everywhere. Your, your full body is oxygenated. So decreasing inflammation, reversing hypoxia, the STEM cell release and killing bugs happens anywhere and that includes regenerating blood vessels in, in a penis or and uh, in areas around the heart or in areas that have degenerated otherwise. And so they did a study looking at erectile dysfunction in males that were relatively healthy and their erectile function improved after, I think it was 6,600 hyperbaric chamber treatments. And so that's new blood vessels that are getting created, a new blood vessel, low vascular flow and the penis. And so we have indications that happens in women as well with, with vaginal flow. But we don't have the studies to show that. Right. Often we'll get the, uh, the feedback from women and men that sex life is better in, in hyperbaric. There's people that have gotten hyperbaric therapy. Speaker 2: (29:38) That's a good reason. Speaker 3: (29:40) Yeah. Speaker 3: (29:41) Well, yeah, there are some studies on infertility already, uh, in helping with fertility because it helps getting it a deeper pressure helped, helps with the uterine lining. The uterine lining itself will, um, we'll get thicker under hyperbaric conditions we think. And then as a result of that, there's a higher chance for the embryo, the embryo to be implanted. And so if you have a thinner uterine lining, you can pick it up potentially in the chamber. So this is used already in Russia and in China as a fertility treatments actually quite commonly in the West and the U S it's not very common. Speaker 2: (30:19) No, I haven't come across the same one. You know, you the troubles with fertility for years. [inaudible] um, I'm going to get in there even more often now. That's not the reason. Speaker 3: (30:31) Just to be clear though, this is at the deeper pressures. Speaker 2: (30:34) Oh yeah. Speaker 3: (30:34) It's shown effect. So this is at like two atmospheres, 2.4. Speaker 2: (30:38) The 1.5 why won't quite cut it so that, that sort of a problem. It probably can't hurt Kenneth. Speaker 3: (30:44) I don't think it would hurt. No. I mean, but there are certain things that I don't recommend going at less pressure. Uh, and that I'm pretty emphatic about. So the things that I don't feel are likely well-treated at 1.3 are any open wounds. Any open wounds really need to be treated at deeper pressures. If you have any ongoing infections. I don't, I feel for the most part, that 1.3 atmosphere is enough. Really. I see a significant benefit unless it's an it, a bug that does not like oxygen environments. And then in that case maybe, but the deeper pressures would likely still be better. Yeah. If you have any chemical sensitivities, these chambers can sometimes make them worse because they're made out of a plastic material. And that plastic material, uh, does off gas to some degree. And I do find that some of my patients that are highly sensitive, so plastics and to chemicals, uh, will not feel good in these kinds of chambers either. Speaker 3: (31:46) If you have any of the FDA approved conditions in my country, I don't recommend using a soft chamber either. Those should be done in deep pressures. The only approved indication for these chambers, assault chambers, that's insurance coverage in the U S is acute mountain sickness. So you go up a mountain too fast, you get signs of altitude sickness, you can get into one of these chambers and you can feel better pretty quickly. And that's, you know, one of the reasons why I have some interests in, Oh, there has been interested in coven 19 specifically because they're thinking that some of the physiology is similar. Yeah. Altitude tickets, how people are, how responding to the virus. Speaker 2: (32:30) So, so, so most of those, um, so since only the only thing that, uh, Molotov America is approved for is mountain, even though there are, but, um, from, from, yep. Okay. Speaker 3: (32:45) There are studies to show that these pressures can be beneficial for brain related conditions. Yes, yes. Speaker 2: (32:52) Yep. Mmm. That's interesting. So, so oxygen oxidative stress was the next thing I wanted to touch on. So, so w when we think of oxidative stress, we think that that's a negative thing. Generally. You know, we should, we need to get rid of the oxidants in our body and we need antioxidants and we need to detox and so on. So why isn't this case oxidative stress? Not a bad thing. What is it [inaudible] is it an oxidative stress? Speaker 3: (33:19) Well, there's a lot of things in life that are good for us that are oxidative stress. One of the most common, hopefully his exercise exercise creates inflammation and oxidative stress. Body responds with the ability to produce antioxidants. And then as a result of those anti-oxidants being released, the body has a way of compensating and then growing stronger. And that's what's happening inside a hyperbaric chamber. Every single thing that's happening almost in a hyperbaric environment is because of oxidative stress. The only thing that's not as a result of oxidative stress is purely the oxygen infusion that's getting more oxygen to the cells and that's allowing more energy to be produced, but everything else, of course, that's very important, but everything else, the oxidative stress causes those epigenetic changes that are happening on the DNA. It causes is that STEM cell release, it causes that inflammatory downregulation. Speaker 3: (34:17) It causes those that vasoconstriction, that constriction of blood vessels that could be injured during an acute event, so it's oxidative stress that initially spurs the system to have a cataclysmic cataclysmic. Yup. Okay. That sounds almost like like a catastrophe. I mean, yeah. Yeah. Basically, you know, it's a huge catalyst for change. Cataclysmic and catalysts are not the same word, but I had a huge catalyst for change. But what happens is that the body, just like with exercise, has a significant ability to have a reactive antioxidant search and that antioxidant surge, it happens and equates or balances out all that oxidative stress or the oxidative stress that we gave the body initially. So it's important for me when I'm thinking about hyperbaric protocols, I think about the person in front of me, I think is this person, somebody that has the ability to have a re the reactive antioxidant surge to balance out that oxidative stress. Because if you're not healthy, if you are sick, if you're inflamed, if you have lots of chronic conditions you made, do be depleted in various things that could make it difficult for you to do this. And that's why I'm very emphatic when I can and when there's time to consider a foundational of cellular health, looking at vitamins, minerals, nutrients, antioxidant levels, looking at signs of gut dysbiosis and immune system function to understand how well somebody is going to do in the chamber before they get in. Speaker 2: (35:54) So that, that's a perfect segue because I wanted to go into, um, the whole foundational health, uh, and, and, and also adjunctive therapies too. Hyperbaric. Um, so it started with a couple of things like Mmm. You know, like taking things like vitamin C infusions before going into hyperbaric, uh, doing the keto diet or exogenous ketones in combination with hyperbaric. Mmm. And then looking as the next step and the conversation into the foundational things which really need to be addressed as well. Um, so they start with it junked of therapies that will benefit from a hyperbaric in combination. Speaker 3: (36:40) Sure. So yeah, that's a good segue I feel before getting into adjunctive, it's important I think to describe that I jumped in. Therapies can definitely synergize together, but it's really important I feel to have a good sense of your own foundational biology before you start stacking therapies on top of each other. Because synergistic tools that are both potentially oxydative, IB, vitamin C, and I can direct therapy, it can be very helpful. However, if you don't have the capacity to physiologically benefit from it or potentially have side effects as a result of the too much oxidative stress, it could be detrimental. So when I think about stacking therapies, I often try to take it a step back and say, okay, let's look at that foundation assessment first. Like your vitamins, your minerals, your nutrients, you're announcing the levels. That's the reprogram that I have that I, that I work with called health optimization medicine, which was founded by a colleague of mine named dr Ted Archer, COSO. Speaker 3: (37:43) And I work as the C Oh of our nonprofit that's educating doctors on how to do this. And I also have my own clinic concierge virtual clinic, really in the Bay area in San Francisco, working with clients across the U S across the world. So once I've done that, once I've looked at that foundational biology, then I think about therapies that can stack on top of hyperbarics or with it. One of the things that I think about is a low level light there. There'll be a low level light technologies because lights have the ability to get more oxygen to tissue by dilating the blood vessels in that area. And so if you're dilating various blood vessels in an area, you can then get more oxygen to that area. So that's one way for some specific spectrums of light to help. Um, infrared light is also really good for detoxification. Speaker 3: (38:33) So I often combine hyperbaric therapy with detox publication strategies and one of them being infrared light, I think about post electromagnetic field technologies. Wow. Those are micro circulatory pulses of electromagnetic fields that can help with circulation. And then increasing circulation is going to help you benefit in a hyperbaric chamber as well because you're getting more tissue oxygenated because there's more tissue that's dilated in blood vessels. And so we can help there. I also think about using various technologies inside of a hyperbaric chamber. If you're in a software like this one because then now you can bring in things that are portable and then you can do brain training like neurofeedback for example. And you can do other types of brain training and using computers or iPads or whatever, doing certain things to sort of work on your multitasking capabilities and, and the like. And you can do a lot of other different things. But those are some of the things that come to mind. Speaker 2: (39:31) Wow. This is what really getting into the whole, you know, optimizing in, in high performance and being able to, to stack the different biohacks if you like. And the different things on top of each other. I'm very interested in the infrared light therapy and um, have some of the products from vital light. Um, again, something that I've used in conjunction with, uh, for mums rehab. Mmm. And uh, very interested in the PME if I haven't had a chance to, to go down that route, but very keen cost prohibitive to have that at home unfortunately. Um, so there are so many amazing things in the biohacking world if you like, where we can actually, uh, sat to look with relatively low risk, um, the lights therapy. Um, it's an interesting one. Also the detrimental effects of blue light coming from our computer screens, stuff like that. Speaker 2: (40:28) Um, yeah and that's um, you know, probably a topic for another day. But what I did want to go into is as you work with dr Ted COSO who I would love to get on the show as well. He's amazing. Um, so dr Ted, uh, is from the Philippines and he has a um, uh, he has health optimization, Madison and so you are the CEO of that company. Can you tell us, well dr tin has created his own own hole. What would you call it, system of looking at so meter below mix the hollow biome. Can you explain what the heck those are? Cause I'm sure nobody listening to this podcast would have come across those terms yet. Sure, no problem. Speaker 3: (41:16) Yeah. So dr ten's an anti-aging doctor. He, uh, we specialize in antiaging medicine and then created his own practice that looks right. Two, I think take the best of conventional medicine. And then the best of what was under the radar in conventional medicine, which is called metabolomics, which is the field of study that we look at real time cellular metabolites. So the real time factors that are making ourselves work. And we can measure all of this. This is something that I didn't know when I was in medical school that you can actually do, but you can actually measure all of these various factors and understand how the body is making energy, how the body is processing your various foods into like from macronutrients all the way down to micronutrients, understanding how we can measure antioxidant levels. And so you can do all this. And so what Ted developed was a way to do this sort of like in the 80 20 framework, which is 80% of the benefit for 20% of the testing and focusing that testing on health and not focusing on any specific disease or condition and setting that aside for the moment and, and just doing, Mmm. Speaker 3: (42:25) More testing related to health and health focus. And so the program itself has seven pillars, but they all comprise what's called the hollow biomes. H, O, L, O, B, I, O, N, T. And this is the idea that we are not just an individual in a population, but we're actually up population of organisms or individuals together in ourselves, in it of ourselves. So we are made up of fungus, virus, bacteria, human. And then we're also made up of the, the metabolites or the production, the toxins and the other things that are in environment. That's all happening all on our cellular level that we can see. So the idea is to create a program for people that uses all of that data that we can measure and understanding where it's coming from and then how to optimize and balance. So the first pillar is metabolomics, which is looking at the cellular data. Speaker 3: (43:25) Another one is epigenetics or looking at how our environment and how are exposures overall change how our epigenetics are or express or how our DNA is expressed through epigenetics, looking at chronobiology or circadian rhythms and how light especially affects our circadian rhythms, looking at the gut immune system. So that's our gut microbiota and in detail how our gut is a very significant indicator of our overall health and our immune health and neurologic and psychologic health are all related to our gut, just on some level looking at evolutionary biology. So the idea is that we have trade offs in our evolution that some certain traits will help us when we're younger, but actually be a detriment to us when we're older. And also how our evolutionary biology is related to our ancestry. So where our ancestry as well also indicate where we should potentially best focus our diet and our and how we change it depending on seasons, et cetera. And there's also the bioenergetics pillar, which is related to energy production, other cellular level. And that's mostly our mitochondria as well, where we're making energy and exposomics, which is the study of toxins, the toxins in our environment. But in essence, this is what we call our whole bio. And we can use about 500 or so data, measure measures to look at measures of all of these things and then create programs for our clients using those metrics and these pillars. [inaudible] really optimize health over the longterm. That's the idea. Speaker 2: (45:09) Wow. So that's just, this is, this is unsigned and something that I'm hoping to study in that in the future. Once I get through the next lot of study, it's just seems to be one Speaker 3: (45:19) the chamber you can study. Speaker 2: (45:21) I do. I was yesterday sitting in there listening to all your lectures and preparing for today's podcast. It's a brilliant way to do it and it just seems so much to learn. Mmm. And I'm very interested in dr Tibbs work and um, you know, coming to grips with it. Um, you know, we, we, we do something in our company, you know, if the genetic testing was that dr Alberto Gralise work and we're finding that absolutely. Yeah. Fascinating. Now, adding in the functional genomics into that with document's or Mohammed's work, uh, it just gives another lens at another lens to be able to look through. And the microbiome is an, is an area anyways, you know, um, you can't have one without the other. I just wish there was more hours on a day to day to deep misinformation. Speaker 3: (46:08) It's a network, Lisa. I think that's what you're going at, right? It's a network effect. Our body doesn't work in silos. You don't just have a heart, you just don't have a brain. You don't just have a gut. They all work together. It's this beautiful symphony. Mmm. Bacteria, virus cells, humans, human cells, mitochondria, which can be classified potentially as bacteria cells as well. Probably back in the day became or came from bacteria that combined with another type of cell that didn't have oxygen capabilities. And that's our, so we have all these things working together. We have hormones working together. We have chemical factories called cytokines working together, um, from a distance. Nothing has to be right next to each other to get there. We have blood vessels, we have lymphatics, we have nerves and other different types of channels to get things. So where they need to go with neurotransmitters. Speaker 3: (47:00) And so it's very difficult to just boil it down. So just a couple of things. I think where the future is going, there's a great article that I loved. It was actually, I think published about six months ago. It was at, it was actually published at Stanford, they called it the narcissism like narcissistic, right? The idea that you'll know everything about yourself, you're no your jeans, you'll know you're genomics, your proteomics, which are the proteins get from genes, you'll know your epigenomics, you'll know you're metabolomics and you will be able to use all this data to create a personalized understanding of you, your risk factors, but also what's actually happening to you right now and getting ideas of what you need to do now so that you can optimize over the longterm. The problem with just looking at genomics is that yeah, it gives you risks of what you may have, but it doesn't tell you actually what's happening. Speaker 3: (47:56) That's what metabolomics does. And so the narcissism is the idea that you have access to all this information and access to the data that's being, I studied as a result of this information too. So anyway, I think we're all gonna have those in our pocket books at some point in the next two years. It's a fascinating to be able to have all of that and to be able to look through these different lenses and to look at the person as a whole. And I think that's where, um, you know, allopathic medicine has had its limitations and that every specialty is very siloed in, in not necessarily communicating with. Right. Hmm. It's still too siloed and the brain does a work independently of the knee and the, you know, whatever the case might be. Mmm. Is it interconnected, focused on, in the past I'm saying would that would be a fear? Speaker 3: (48:52) Well, because as human beings, we try to simplify things as much as possible. There's very good reasons for that. Um, and I'm not, I'm going to be against it, but I think it's important that you have certain people that specialized in organs and do the work that they do and be very, very good at it. But it's like not having a primary care doctor, I'm just going to see a specialist. If you're just in the conventional world, what's going to happen is that you just get opinions in the very singular lens of that particular organ system. So it doesn't look at the big picture. And then you look outside the conventional system and you have to think about this larger, this larger understanding to really get a good holistic, comprehensive plan I feel of of how to maintain your health over the longterm. Cause if you're just looking at, I want to optimize my heart function, I want optimize my, my brains function. Speaker 3: (49:48) It's like, well what about your gut? You know, what about your antioxidant levels? What about your, see, what about you're motion in your feet and how that's affecting your back. And there's all these other aspects of things that are important. So I tend to work with people that look at more of a holistic view of movement and holistic view of health with whatever capacity. And I do my best to help people across the world in not only hyperbaric therapy, but helping them understand the best ways to approach their goals from a holistic perspective. And so I do, I think you remember, I do virtual consultations, education, advocacy for hyperbaric across the world. And I love new challenges and ways to people. I mean, I often get the thing, it's the same things over and over again, but I love when new things kind of pop up and I go, Oh, that's super interesting. And then I get to harness the network that I've created across the world to really help people. And a lot of these things, things can be done remotely now, which is great, which is even even better given that most of us are stuck in our homes. No, anyway, at the moment, given the whole pandemic thing, I was talking to my hyperbaric chamber for a little while longer, which I'm not too sad about that. Speaker 2: (50:58) And, and you know, I find this just such a refreshing approach that you, you know, as a doctor, as a medical doctor, an internal doctor who's looked outside of the box you had on your website somewhere or some somewhere I read, you know, the box was broken a long ago. Um, you don't all to confine yourself to one way of thinking or one. Speaker 3: (51:18) There was never a box Speaker 2: (51:20) for me, Lisa. Speaker 3: (51:23) It was actually, I created a box after not having a box and then I broke it open again. I grew up because I'm the son of a chiropractor who didn't have a box. There was no such thing. And so aye created some sides of that box and some, you know, some stingy walls and pretty thin walls when I went to medical school. So I could learn what I needed to learn and then now use that information and work within that framework when necessary in the conventional framework, but also knowing that they're clumsy and that it's easy to get outside of those walls and we should, especially if there's time, if there's time to work unconventionally than work on unconventionally. If there isn't a time work eventually, but also do unconventional things if you can and you could do them side by side. And that's one of the things I specialize in too is understanding that most things in life are not mutually exclusive and you don't always have time to wait for one or the other. And sometimes you just kind of have to throw the bus at it in a very methodical way to help it. I know that's what you did with your mom. Speaker 2: (52:31) Yeah. By Sigma. Yeah. A multifaceted Chuck everything. It started them out at the wall and I'd hope some of it sticks. [inaudible] it has, Speaker 3: (52:41) yeah. Throw shit at the wall is like is the nice way of saying it for maybe the nonsense nice way of saying Speaker 2: (52:46) and, and Speaker 3: (52:47) you do that in a methodical way and that's the important, the thing that I try to emphasize is that there has to be a physiologic reason and they have to be done, at least if it's, yeah. If it's a recommendation for me, it's have to be done in a methodical way that you kind of understand what's happening. And w the factors that are playing and not just throwing shit at the wall without a plan of what shit is going at the wall. At what time Speaker 2: (53:10) and looking at the risk reward. Yeah. And then making sure that you're not, um, and you know, for someone like, so, you know, if my nature is, is very much a dive in and just have a crack and, um, you know, sometimes they have to pull myself back and go hang a minute. The risks too high here or yeah. Speaker 3: (53:29) Words. So Speaker 2: (53:31) yeah, it's really, it's, you know, it's one thing to do it on yourself. It's another thing with other people in being able to, Speaker 3: (53:40) yeah. What I was saying is that as a new Zealander, you're, you're known for your risk taking. So sometimes you gotta you gotta you gotta bring it back in a notch there. Speaker 2: (53:48) Exactly. Yup. Too much adrenaline. You can say it in my epigenetics, my ring finger is longer than my index finger. I've got too much to drink. Nice. Um, but you know, like doctor dr Cher, you know, we'll wrap up in a second, but I just wanted to thank you so much because the advocacy that you're doing, the work, the connections that you're boating, the network, you really are the worlds having age of, of, of Oh this new, whatever the says that sets happening with us as personalized health, uh, this new paradigm shifts. And um, I'm excited to get your message out there. So if any of the lessons sitting out there, we'd like to talk to Dr. Scott because obviously he's a super expert in everything from a hyperbaric right through to metabolomics and the holiday BYOD. Um, if you would like a bitch or a consultation with doctors, dr shear, where can they go doctor? Speaker 3: (54:43) So for my consultation work, my education and advocate, you can see work, I do it all through my, my website. It's integrative HBO t.com Speaker 2: (54:52) integrated kioti.com. Speaker 3: (54:54) Yeah. And then if you could also disconnect with me on Instagram to add Dr. Scott [inaudible], S C O T T S H E R R. And I also, we can set some things up through that as well if people have interest. I've been looking to post more and get more out there for people. And I know I've been doing podcasts for awhile but I feel like smaller little bits of information are helpful too given the attention deficits of our current state of affairs. So I have this like funny airplane pillow around my neck there. That's better. Okay. Um, so it was nice when I was in the other position. Um, but so those are the two major places that I do my education, advocacy and consultation. I also have a new Facebook group actually just set up called optimize H optimize HBO T with Dr. Scott Cher. Speaker 3: (55:43) And this is a really fun one. I'm looking to have a location where we all can kind of get along in the hyperbaric community. They have like the heart chamber advocates and the salt chamber advocates and you have to be able to know a lot about having barrier therapy in that, you know, very little. And my hope is to create a platform where we can kind of all come together and I'm going to be creating content and curating content with a team of people to hopefully bring, I think I hope the community together a little bit more and bring more information out there. So that's a new, that's a new one that I've just come out with. Speaker 2: (56:16) I'm definitely count me in, count me in. I'm definitely an advocate for all of us. And um, want to share, you know, um, I've just sent you actually a copy of my book. I don't know if it'll get through when the covert situation, but I really want the story to get out. Speaker 3: (56:32) Yeah. For sure. Speaker 2: (56:33) Yeah, Speaker 3: (56:34) we'll hear that story. Speaker 2: (56:35) Yeah. And that's like 250 and counting hyperbaric sessions so far. Speaker 3: (56:41) That's amazing what you and your mom has done. It's really beautiful. Speaker 2: (56:44) That is really beautiful. So Dr. Scott, thank you so much. I'll put all those links for everybody in the show notes today. I really appreciate your time. Um, it's very, very precious to me and I really, really grateful for you doing all this work. So thank you very much. Okay, Speaker 3: (57:00) and you, Lisa. Thanks for all your hard work and your advocacy and it's been my pleasure to be on your podcast, my first one in the hyperbaric chamber. Speaker 1: (57:09) That's it this week for pushing the limits. Be sure to write, review, and share with your friends and head over and visit Lisa and her team at lisatamati.com.

Many of us have dealt at sometime in our life with depression, anxiety, burnout or stress. Many of us know what it's like to fight on a daily basis with the black dog.    In this very candid and honest interview with Author Matt Calman we dive deep into the how depression and mental health struggles can catch anyone of us out and how we can courageously fight our way back to health and happiness.   Matt used the challenge of the Coast to Coast to work through the demons in his mind and the importance of having a physical challenge and goal when dealing with derailed emotions. His book "The Longest Day" chronicles the ups the downs of his journey back to health culminating in the successful finishing of the ultimate challenge NZ's Coast to Coast multisport  race    The infamous Coast to Coast is a multisport competition held annually in New Zealand. It is run from the west coast to the east coast of the South Island, and features running, cycling and kayaking elements over a total of 243 kilometres (151 mi). It starts in Kumara Beach and traditionally finished in the Christchurch suburb of Sumner, but since 2015 finishes in New Brighton.   You can find out more about Matts book at https://www.allenandunwin.com/browse/books/other-books/The-Longest-Day-Matt-Calman-9781988547305   We would like to thank our sponsors for this show:   For more information on Lisa Tamati's programs, books and documentaries please visit www.lisatamati.com   For Lisa's online run training coaching go to https://www.lisatamati.com/page/runni... Join hundreds of athletes from all over the world and all levels smashing their running goals while staying healthy in mind and body.   Lisa's Epigenetics Testing Program https://www.lisatamati.com/page/epigenetics/ measurement and lifestyle stress data, that can all be captured from the comfort of your own home   For Lisa's Mental Toughness online course visit: https://www.lisatamati.com/page/mindsetuniversity/   For Lisa's free weekly Podcast "Pushing the Limits" subscribe on iTunes or your favorite podcast app or visit the website https://www.lisatamati.com/page/podcast/   Lisa's third book has just been released. It's titled "Relentless - How A Mother And Daughter Defied The Odds" Visit: https://relentlessbook.lisatamati.com/ for more Information   ABOUT THE BOOK: When extreme endurance athlete, Lisa Tamati, was confronted with the hardest challenge of her life, she fought with everything she had. Her beloved mother, Isobel, had suffered a huge aneurysm and stroke and was left with massive brain damage; she was like a baby in a woman's body. The prognosis was dire. There was very little hope that she would ever have any quality of life again. But Lisa is a fighter and stubborn. She absolutely refused to accept the words of the medical fraternity and instead decided that she was going to get her mother back or die trying. This book tells of the horrors, despair, hope, love, and incredible experiences and insights of that journey. It shares the difficulties of going against a medical system that has major problems and limitations. Amongst the darkest times were moments of great laughter and joy. Relentless will not only take the reader on a journey from despair to hope and joy, but it also provides information on the treatments used, expert advice and key principles to overcoming obstacles and winning in all of life's challenges. It will inspire and guide anyone who wants to achieve their goals in life, overcome massive obstacles or limiting beliefs. It's for those who are facing terrible odds, for those who can't see light at the end of the tunnel. It's about courage, self-belief, and mental toughness. And it's also about vulnerability... it's real, raw, and genuine. This is not just a story about the love and dedication between a mother and a daughter. It is about beating the odds, never giving up hope, doing whatever it takes, and what it means to go 'all in'. Isobel's miraculous recovery is a true tale of what can be accomplished when love is the motivating factor and when being relentless is the only option.   Here's What NY Times Best Selling author and Nobel Prize Winner Author says of The Book: "There is nothing more powerful than overcoming physical illness when doctors don't have answers and the odds are stacked against you. This is a fiercely inspiring journey of a mother and daughter that never give up. It's a powerful example for all of us." —Dr. Bill Andrews, Nobel Prize Winner, author of Curing Aging and Telomere Lengthening. "A hero is someone that refuses to let anything stand in her way, and Lisa Tamati is such an individual. Faced with the insurmountable challenge of bringing her ailing mother back to health, Lisa harnessed a deeper strength to overcome impossible odds. Her story is gritty, genuine and raw, but ultimately uplifting and endearing. If you want to harness the power of hope and conviction to overcome the obstacles in your life, Lisa's inspiring story will show you the path." —Dean Karnazes, New York Times best selling author and Extreme Endurance Athlete.   Transcript of the Podcast:   Speaker 1: (00:01) Welcome to pushing the limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential with your host, Lisa [inaudible], brought to you by Lisatamati.com. Speaker 2: (00:12) Today I have another special interview with a very lovely friend Matt Calman. Now met is a journalist and he is the author of the longest day and matt shares his journey today through a very bad depression and coming back and using the coast to coast is his journey back to health. So it's a very, very interesting and insightful and really real interview, which I'm very pleased to bring you before we get over to matt just want to remind you my book relentless is now out in available on all the platforms, on audio books, on eBooks, on Amazon, on Kindle. You can find out all about about it at relentlessbook.lisatamati.com. That's relentlessbook.lisatamati.com I'd also like a word to all the runners out there. If you've been sitting on the fence about joining our online run training club running hot now's a good time to do it during the covid crisis, we have made a special so that it's more affordable for people. Speaker 2: (01:14) We have a 12 week excess membership excess for 49 us dollars at the moment for 12 weeks and get access to all of our programs from 5k up to a hundred miles. And we have a very holistic run training approach. So if you've never run before, this is your first time that you have having a go at it or whether you're doing your hundredth a hundred kilometer race. We'd love to talk to you and help you build a very structured plan and a holistic approach based on our five pillars, which are the running, the mobility, the strength and nutrition and the mindset. So check that out. That's on my website, at lisatamati.com. Now, before I go, please do give the show a rating and review. I really, really appreciate that on iTunes if you could. It really helps the show get exposure. And I love to hear your feedback of any of the episodes have really touched a chord with you. Or if you've found great help with this, please share it with your networks and also write to me and let me know. Really, really appreciate it right now over to matt Calman Speaker 3: (02:17) Well, Hey everybody, welcome back to the show. This is Lisa Tammany here and I am with matt Calman. Matt, how you doing? Good, thanks Lisa. Thank you for having me on. Oh, it's very, very exciting to have you met as a fellow New Zealand author. and, as I said, you don't know. He has written the book the longest stay recently, very recently telling his life story. And I'm going to share my story. I'm going to share his story with us. There. It is the longest life as I was watching on YouTube. I must grab a book met you know, really excited to delve into your story a little bit today and your backgrounds and how this book came about and your, your history. So give us a bit of a rundown on who you are and where you come from and your family and so on. And then it still haven't your story. Speaker 4: (03:03) Well, I'm, I'm 43 now. I was born and mastered them and it's very small town Amsterdam. Then my dad worked there as an insurance man then got transferred to Christchurch when I was about three years old. So like, yeah, I don't, I didn't know, I don't know Amsterdam then very well, but I had the roots there, a lot of friends there, and then we put down some roots in Christchurch and that's where I grow up. So I spent all the way through to my sort of early twenties and Christchurch. And then I met my wife, ah, when I was 19 and she was 17. She was just finishing up high school, took it to the bowl. And you pretty early on actually throw me and I know that she was going to be the ones who may, yeah, but a fairy tale really. Speaker 4: (03:52) Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so we're still dealing. We've got a couple of daughters now teen and nearly seven two girls and I've been, I'm at home with them for the last nine years. So when my, when my first, our first daughter was about seven months old I left my job as a journalist. I've been a journalist for a few years of the dominion post. I was living in Wilmington at that time with my wife's where she started her legal career. She's now a partner at a, at a sort of a good sized law firm and Christchurch. And we're living, you know, living the dream. But yeah, it's a, it certainly hasn't been a straight road life pays its ups and dances. You know, Lisa, I've read your book and I read about all your ups and downs and yeah, pretty inspiring stuff. Speaker 3: (04:48) Oh, thanks man. Yeah. And I'm keen to Delvin zoo story because you know, I love, I love people who share, they are the real stuff, the, the stuff that isn't perhaps pretty in the stuff that isn't glamorous, the difficult times. And your, your story is certainly inspiring. So let's start with where it all went wrong. You know, cause this sounds like a fairy tale. You meet your beautiful wife, you, your kids and lost going. Great. We did it all. We did things start to go wrong for you. Speaker 4: (05:15) Let's see. In Congress thing about all of us about depression, about how it doesn't discriminate it, it touches people who've had wonderful life like I've had. Well, and it touches people who struggled. It doesn't, yeah, it's not really about how good your lifers. Yes, from the outside, my life was perfect. Two beautiful children, amazing wife. We don't want for anything. We were pretty comfortable financially. Live in a lovely house in Christ, in a leafy suburb internally for probably it had been years, you know, it was like a tap dropping, slowly dropping, dropping, dropping and building up on this internal struggle I was having with Myla identity with my direction in life. There were a number of factors. There was, there was some sort of, at the time I had my breakdown and at the end of April, 2017 come off the back of a very stressful situation with, with someone who had kind of lied to us and taken the money and not a lot of money, but I took it very personally coming out of the back of that I had had some panic attacks like the year before, my first major panic attack was off the back of a situation. Speaker 4: (06:32) When I started to realize that things weren't right. And so I've been, I've been in hindsight dealing with depression and anxiety, social anxiety for most of my life. So before I knew what to call it, because I'd always, you know, I compared myself with other people and you look at the worst case scenario, the worst of the worst person who has suffered terrible mental illness and there's a full range. You're somewhere on, everyone's somewhere on the spectrum. So I never thought that I really had a problem with, with the time to, to fix or to try and address. So for years, this tape dropped and dropped and dropped. But it finally got to the point where I reached my breaking point and, and that's where the book really kind of begins. You know, I, this is, this was where my life kind of fell apart and I was diagnosed with depression, something that one, and for New Zealand as well experienced in the lifetimes. It's very, very common. We don't talk about it, but from the time I had my breakdown, that was when I started to she and to reach out and actually address it properly. Yup. Speaker 3: (07:42) And I mean, this is, this is, you know, like we do sometimes think that because I didn't, you know, love through the most horrific thing. The four don't have a right to be depressed in any way. And that's really a dangerous thing what you say, because then you don't address it. You don't know. Look out front. And you know, having had depression myself and having it rock bottom a number of times in my life I can totally relate to this feeling. So what actually had of it? How did it manifest itself when it really crashed? And this is what usually happens, you have a big crash. Speaker 4: (08:19) Well, basically I had been building out for months, weeks and months really seriously to the point where I was, I was desperate and feeling you really love myself. I was really irritable. Which is, which was a number one symptom and, and nightly mean like does anger where it's a rational, you don't really know what it's about, where it's coming from. And so like I was snapping it feeling really bad and apologizing straight away. And then, Mmm, in rhino it was sort of aware that things were about off, but she didn't, I, I mainly had it from everyone around me and I was just feeling internalizing everything. I was feeling all this mental strain, a lot of it, very subconscious. And it was just building up on me, building up and when it really crashed my, my daughters that had their cousins around for a sleepover extra. Speaker 4: (09:15) And so, Oh, it was under a bit of a bit of pressure there and I wasn't feeling good in myself. And I kind of had a boat, an outburst in front of all the kids in the kitchen over breakfast. I went upstairs and I was just sort of sliding back on my bed, really searching for what was going on, a real, I was feeling very desperate. And then, and then I looked over and I saw a vision and I'm actually in my bedroom now, so I looked over at the on suite away and a version of myself hanging in the doorway. No. Did well flashed into my, I w it wasn't, it wasn't even in my mind, it was like Alison nation. There was signs of it and a real that it just scared me straight. It gave me a white to, to the real problem that was there was head name. Speaker 4: (10:07) And I, it was, it was very frightening. Mmm. They fleshed up and then it was gone. You know, very quickly, and I described this in the book and that was the moment I reached out. I already had a and they haven't used for help. I've been seeing a counselor for, for the panic attacks I'd had the year before, but I got through that sort of put the bandaid on there, which was great, but hadn't really dealt with the main thing, which was this depression that was coming. Yep. And so I reached out for here and cold out for my wife and from there moment there was, there was no more facade of, of being okay. And it'll come down and it was just relating, Speaker 3: (10:52) No. How was that for a man on an eye? Like, you know, woman generally have a, a slightly perhaps easier time or sharing their emotions and how was it for a, you know, good Kay, we broke two to open up about something like this and you know, even to write about this afterwards is, is it quite, you know, like difficult and how's it been? How's it been received? Speaker 4: (11:15) I think for me it maybe was a little bit easier for me than for maybe other men who don't have an outlet. Yeah. I'd been a writer, you know, for a long time in June, freelance for a long time. I've been writing a blog about my life at home with the children in the early days. The ups and downs of life in a really honest blog about parenting and which was pretty entertaining to people were in serious, you know, I touched on some serious topics of miscarriage and grief and the stresses of being a parent and, and the identity of being a, being in the workplace and then coming home and not having that anymore. And then when I gave up alcohol in 2016 my blog, I'd started blogging and The signs, Diane is, is a good friend of mine, a lot of Dane has written books about her sobriety and, and keeps up the website living sober, which I joined. Speaker 4: (12:09) I'd done an article for drug foundation on her. And she inspired me to one of the people that really inspired me to give up drinking and, and just say, you know, get rid of that depressant. Yes. It's like they had a way basically taking that away rule the mental health staff to the four that was already bubbling away. I no longer had alcohol to kind of put the bandaid on the problem. I had to deal with it. So this is a very common thing that people would give up. Alcohol, I have to kind of deal with life in the war and without, without that thing, help them. So yeah, so like probably losing sight of the questionnaire, which often happens with me when I go on and on. But I have been blogging about, I've been doing this daily blog on those pseudonyms. Speaker 4: (12:54) So man, three, six, five. And actually if you, if you Google sideman three, six, five, the blogs are start up online. I, I blog for a year, the first year of sobriety that about seven, six, seven months and it became a blog about more about depression and about, about the struggles I was having. Wising up to that stuff. I'd already had the panic attack and that started writing about that. And then they know I, you know, I had my big crash and I stopped writing for a period of probably at least a week or a week and a half. We are obviously just trying to get through and getting through each moment really. And I wasn't able really to do anything. You know, I was, I was stripped back and control. I couldn't drive. I couldn't do much more than lie on the couch and just try and get, you know, get through the day. Speaker 4: (13:43) And so when I started riding again, I reentered the blog. Mmm. Talking about the depression. So being open about it, it already happened. So I win. You know, I decided to write the book, you know, I knew, I knew that writing as honestly as possible, it was really important. So you don't just talk in generalities and let people fill in the gaps. Oh, I've got my experience. I'm not an expert on depression, but I'm an expert on my own depression. And in that way, there's this universality of it. No, I mean everyone has a very unique experience in different ways that they can coping and get stroller. But I, I put my roadmap down in the book to help out other people you know, build their own roadmap. So Speaker 3: (14:27) You've come through this time and I know that you know, and it's moving to the part of the story where, you know, it's called the longest day for a reason. Speaker 4: (14:38) What happened there also in February, 2018. So I'm sort of, I'm throw the worst part of the depression, the, the railway early days when I'm getting on the medication, you know, I'm getting back to functioning and, and my, my heat's clear and the fog is lifting and I'm starting to look for the challenge, the next thing that I can do because basically you guys stripped all responsibility. I just stopped. I was a big being at home. It was actually easier for me and I don't know how people who work do this. Rhino, he was able to take all that pressure off me and I could just work on my recovery. And so then I was looking for the next thing to actually do the next challenge. And my friends were finishing the coast to coast, which is a rice that goes from the West coast, New Zealand tomorrow, serpentine beach. Speaker 4: (15:27) And then it goes all the way across the country over the big mountain. And then you're on down the road down the why man and then you're cycling correct across J 70 case last bike ride into this terrible kid, went on the straightest route and use the longest straightest road in New Zealand. CFA arrived and you're finishing it and you brought in a new youth Sumner that can the day speed do any, it was one of the famous Cathy lunch, all these famous famous people writing Curry, Sam Klein as the Legion, the rice in the moment, four time winner and the most iconic race and captured it beautifully between one side of the country and the other, my friends were finishing and I decided to go out for the first time either to see the finish of this race. I've lived in Christchurch most of my life, always been kind of kept divided by this rice, nivo bean physically there, this is the mistake I made. Speaker 4: (16:12) I go into the race, you go to this race and you get drawn into the rice and you get inspired by all these amazing people. No half of them don't look like acting like that prepared within an inch of their lives. And I are all finishing this rice. You see what it means to them you see on their faces but the struggle. Yeah, the joy, the hardship that the just getting over all these little struggles along the way to get across the Island. And it's, it's not, it's not a sure thing. You start this race and you don't know what's going to happen. You can prepare for everything, but it gets, stuff gets chucked in you. And this is just like as a metaphor for life, this race. So I've seen my friends Spanish, I see Sam clot actually finish. You finished about half an hour before my friends cause the one day people, you even do it in two days or one day. Speaker 4: (17:02) People, we don't know that was raised the two day people start on the second day and sorry, the one night people start on the second day of the rice. I winner in the late people, I pass a lot of the highly end of the two day field, so the flower people. And so I stay in class one time. I say the winner of the rice, I say my friends finish. I see them embraced by their families. They run the last bit of the kids and I'm like, I want to buy the of this. I'm going to. So I decided, I left, I left the race and I'm biking back to my house, 10 Ks away. And so, and as I was biking home I already knew I was going to sign up in 2019 and just would be the vehicle I would use to prep does doing things differently in my life to approach challenges differently because a lot of my problems had been, I've been so hard on myself. The things that are tried or not tried, I'd mainly been a spectator on the sidelines of my own life. Wanting to do some of these things and thinking, no, that's not for may because God, I know I couldn't do that and I decided, right. All right, I'm going to do it. If my friends can do this, I can do this. Speaker 4: (18:14) I mainly knew that this was the vehicle for my book because I'd always wanted to ride. Speaker 3: (18:19) Yes. This well in sport, you know, like, I mean, you know, I've got different, but some of stories really. Speaker 4: (18:31) No, I'm not. I'm Lisa, the late on sort of a, I would, NASA, I'm on a little bit higher than a weekend warrior. But well, no, kind of just hanging under there at a late level. Speaker 3: (18:42) Yeah. Well that's the funny thing Matt. I'm totally not a late and never have been. Oh, hold on. Ever done his work for 25 years at something and got, you know, halfway good at it. Speaker 4: (18:55) It doesn't matter though, isn't it? Yeah, it's the price you say, Speaker 3: (18:58) But, but you know, like as far as ability and like, you know, you put me in a race with you. If I had to go for a jog for you with you, you'd be like off I cry. That like, come on. All right. My husband does it every day. You know, I like, I'm slow. But that doesn't matter. Right. It's, it's the journey that you go on on the inside. That's really what's important. And your, your story actually reminds me of Charlie angle's story a little bit, except he was much more extreme metallic. Charlie is he's the one at random right across the Sahara and he's legend. Widowed in, in, in his story was well, much more alcohol and drugs. So he, yeah, he took, yeah. Now stories to the other end of crazy, but on both ends. Speaker 3: (19:46) But, but this, this, this, the same reason nights through so many of our lives. And when we take up a sport that is hugely challenging, whether it's the coast of ghosts or deer Valley or doing something crazy, it is the hardest thing you've ever done, but at the same time as the best, most rewarding experience. And it changes your perception of who you are. I mean, I, I remember even like when I met my husband at the beginning he was coming to me for running coaching and you know, he wanted to do this charity of running 27 case in full BA. He's a firefighter and full caps, you know, the yellow plastic suits with full BA for charity. And he wanted to know about running in the heat. So who better to ask, right? Speaker 3: (20:32) Teach teacher may touch him in any, any does it. And it goes, it raises lots of money. Awesome. And he, he always thought that ultra marathon runners had to be special types of people with super talents. And he started when he started to get to know me to realize, hang on, there's nothing special about this church. She's just funny. And it realized that, hang on, I could probably do this. And then his life, you know, he's gone on to do lots of ultras and so on. And this story of head over and over and over and over again because we sit ourselves, limitations of what we're capable of, don't we? And we, and we think we can overcome them. And you saw in your friends, so you considered perhaps equals to you that they could do this and therefore that was a gateway for you to Speaker 4: (21:17) Absolutely. And I think also like, you know, really on our mind, I knew that I wasn't going to be able to do the coast to coast until the end, you know, so I turned up. So yeah, so it's not like it's not 243 kilometers across a mountain and across the country and down the river. It's a million States. And so you just start walking towards her and then why it's all that process stuff. So, and there was also a massive antidote to the depression as like depression really does. I mean, they say that old saying goes a depression lives in the past and regrets and the things that you've done and things you're holding on. So anxiety lives in the future and worries about what's going to happen up here. And I had both of those things going on. So, so the coast to coast and training, like you know, you've got to be in the moment. Speaker 4: (22:04) You described this many times Googling down evens pass at 70 Ks an hour on your bike. There's potholes all over the place. It's very much you should, you really need a P in the moment. So, so the poster goes, training draws the past and in the future into the present in the end. So, so you are, you are just soaking up that experience. Like in the past when I trained, I would off be beating myself up about God. I wish I was better and and, and I'd have pain in my body. I some thought, I wish I wasn't hurting and all the stuff, you know, and, and I'd be just fixated on this little rigid small goal of I have to run a certain time in my half marathon. I've always wanted to break an hour, an hour and a half so I could consider myself a good runner. Speaker 4: (22:50) I was like, well, okay, a lot of people would have killed to do, do my best time of, of an hour, 31, whatever it was. And so, you know, I'd never quite made that. And maybe one day it doesn't matter to me now it's, it's really more about the duty because like the, all that time I spent or writing myself and being so hard on myself, and then I wouldn't reach the goal and then I would be like, Oh, there's just another reason why I'm not good enough. Yeah. You know, you know, a lot of people think like this and like, I thought like this all my life. Yeah. The first thing the first thing I had to fix, Mmm. When I was recovering from the, from my breakdown, well, it was my relationship with myself. So you're like, you know, you're talk about you need to lock yourself. Speaker 4: (23:37) That is really important. But to really truly like yourself and say, Oh, my K is so powerful. Mmm. And it does just the mindset tweak. It's just a shift in mindset to the point of, Mmm. From that moment on, you don't hear about all that external stuff. You don't hear about missing up, you don't care about falling out of your boat. So from that point on, once I've fixed my relationship with myself and I, and I went into this training, Mmm. Like a fraud. If I'd been the old man, I would have fallen out of my diet and I would have packed it all up and said, fuck it. I'm not going to do it. I'll, sorry. Sorry. Did y'all eat a data and, and carried me through the year because I'm embracing making mistakes and knowing that it was all a learning process and nothing's perfect. Speaker 4: (24:28) And my race, my two races, I edit coast to coast. Neither of them were perfect. I loved every minute of both races. The one, the one which is encapsulated in the book and then the one that I did this year earlier this year the best experiences of my life because you know, I've, I've now gained this massive community of people. Oh, I'm so connected now to hundreds and hundreds of people that do this race. It's opened my life up instead of like me going, God, I wish, I wish I had more friends. So I wish that I hadn't with deep friendships in my life, all that stuff was there all along, but he still wasn't being a very good friend to myself. I didn't feel I deserved it. Now that I'm, that I know that I'm okay, I realize that and I'm embracing that, but everything else has just improved. So I still struggle with depression and fate. Speaker 4: (25:19) Two days ago I really crushed again, like it had been building up subconsciously. My, my lockdown experience has been like a dream can be to a lot of people's and like kids have been so wonderful, but yeah, but I haven't, I need this space. I need the aligned time. And I need the time to just risk that, you know, when the kids are at school, if I'm not doing well, yup. You know, I say it's okay for me to risk cause I need to do that or there's certain strategies I've put in place and I haven't been able to do that. So that boat up to the point where it just all came out and, and, and I was like the irritability and the anger and the just feeling side low and just the brain fog was bad. And, but I've been here before. I lived experience, I know passes in the news today I signed up and did a yoga class and 9:00 AM to just get my day rolling in the right way and, and just yeah, like in street, like your home, I'm homeschooling. I'm not a teacher. Speaker 3: (26:18) You're not alone in this panel. I think there are many linear, many parents now they going, hell yeah, I get you. Speaker 4: (26:25) So you'd be a stay. It doesn't matter. Really the bigger picture is that you're okay. Yeah. And that everyone's happy. Speaker 3: (26:32) You know what? And what I find powerful about data to say, sometimes people write about, you've written a book, I've written three books. People think you've got it all together now you've written about it in a year together and you're, you're on top of it. And nothing could be further from the truth. We are all on a journey and as you said before, there's a spectrum and there's a, you know, we're all improving our mental health and I've been doing a lot of study lately on functional genomics and looking at genes and your predisposition to certain ways of you know, how long adrenaline stays in your body, how fast the dopamine mean is take, is processed, all of these chemical things and actually have an influence, which I'd love to talk to you about actually separately. I'll, I'll on that topic. When you, once you start to understand your genes, I think that all and what you can do to, to help support that that will be a really another great thing to, to, to have in your toolkit. Speaker 3: (27:24) But we need talkative. This isn't talking about like every time I go through a horrible experience and hard times, I really have a little bit more then I can use it. It can, it can either break me and there've been things that have nearly broken me and where I thought I was broken. And that was that. But you know, I managed to stand up. And then when you do stand back up, you've got another tool that you've been able to overcome. And this is why [inaudible] this story is so powerful and I really encourage people to go and get the book the longest day. Mine's on its way. And I'm looking forward to diving into it and into the story. And it really, if, if this, if this interview you guys sitting out there listening to this, if this is the reason I did with you, what's Matt saying? Speaker 3: (28:12) And you think that this could help you know, ground. Grab that book the longest day, shake it out, see what Mets all about and, and see if, if there's something in there for you that can help you. We write these books because we're just sharing Ella stories and we're not experts necessarily, but the, the value lies in the [inaudible] okay. In being open sharing honestly. Yeah. And giving other people a new perspective on the crap that they're going to, cause sometimes you cannot see the forest for the trees when you're in the middle of it. And another thing is, yeah, Speaker 4: (28:49) That your experiences as, as you need better does really quite universal. And the more you share about what's happening for you, then then you're giving other people permission. Feel connected. But also to share about, back to you, like, so you get back what you reflect out. And I, I've, I've seen it, what's going on with me with a lot of people, perfect strangers in a way, within 20 seconds of meeting a perfect stranger. I've gotten really good at being able to just sorta segue into a real deep conversation. And it's really one voice because, okay, we're, we're all, we're all sort of wandering around the planet aimlessly and then we collide with each other and we can make these really kind of amazing connections. And you don't have to be the best friend or the person you'd leave them. You might never see them again. But if I felt quite special way and then Speaker 3: (29:40) You feel and Speaker 4: (29:42) Going around being, I mean we have to do with our professional hats on and network and song be a certain way and so on. Well I don't have to, cause I'm sad I'm gay so I'm the most unprofessional person. Speaker 3: (29:52) But this is a thing and this is why I think we buy some, you know, we both kept them of our own ship cause I don't go to work either. I work my ass off but I wasn't going to work is that I can be who I am and that is the most precious thing to me and I can be the real person and not the person that, you know, people want me to be, you know, at least my son. You can just be you and [inaudible] and you can connect and this is what the other are that sport does. And when you're out doing the, the either coast to coast or an ultra marathon somewhere, you go through so much shit and that period of time and so much hardship and so much pain and so much doubts and so much whatever and the preparation and everything that the person that's running next to you or your crew or whatever the case may be, that going through it with you and they're experiencing. Speaker 3: (30:40) And that creates a bond that can, that is better than what the normal bottoms when you just go to have coffee with your friends, you know, and it's like, you know, when soldiers go to war together and they come back, they have a bond that I don't think we as outside people can ever actually understand because they've wrapped together and there is a beauty in this, even though it can be hard at the time. There is a beauty in that as well. And having those deep connections with other humans is a real human need. And you know, we, we sort of sometimes think we can be lone wolfs and we can, I mean, I used to definitely try and be the lone Wolf and I don't need everybody and and it was only because I was hurting, you know, it was only cause I didn't have that connection that I really sought needed. And you do dumb things in, you know ma, I know you've got a, an appointment to get to and I've got another coaching session to do. I would really like to continue this conversation, you know, maybe in a second or a little bit later on because I think it needs to be really explored so we can people buy the book, where can they find out about you and your blog and all the other work that you're doing that. Speaker 4: (31:49) So, so the book is published by element on one. I just hear from them that that wall are not fulfilling orders at the moment, but when it starts back up again, you can order it. Online. You just, you just Google the longest day met Kellman at all. They all know at links pop up, you can get it for Kindle on Amazon and for a reader on ebooks.com. Which was another instant way to be able to read it in the lockdown. A lot of people have done that yet. Speaker 3: (32:19) ebooks. And do you have a website met that you personally have? Speaker 4: (32:24) Yes, mattcalman.com so MA, T, T, C A L M A N . com l and he's a lengthier actually to to buy the book. And you sit on my photos. thats from my racing in falling out a client days, which Speaker 3: (32:40) Will continue. I wouldn't even, I had a certain one, one of those rice ones you haven't loved until you said. That's nice. Good. Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom today. I really appreciate it. It's been an honor to have you on and to meet another fellow author, you know, doing, doing cool stuff in the world. So thank you very much for your time. Thanks so much. Been great. Speaker 1: (33:08) That's it this week for pushing the limits. Be sure to write, review, and share with your friends and head over and visit Lisa and her team at lisatamati.com.  

Molecular Biologist Dr. Keith Booher talks about the Horvath epigenetic clock and the why and how behind finding out your biological age. Keith Booher received his PhD from the University of California, Irvine in 2011 where he conducted research in the field of cancer cell metabolism. He then began work at Zymo Research Corporation developing methods and assays for the investigation of epigenetics. Along with colleagues, he contributed to a high impact study evaluating methods for DNA methylation validation in 2016. Keith continues to study epigenetics in his current position as Application Scientist at The myDNAge company or Epimorphy, LLC, in Southern California where his research is focused on healthy aging and longevity. In his free time, you can find Keith either on the dance floor, at the local library, or spending time with his family. "The world population is aging, especially in the West and the industrialized countries of Asia. In fact, the percentage of the population over the age of 65 is expected to more than double by the year 2050. An aging population presents many societal challenges as advanced age is the number one contributor to chronic ailments such as heart disease, cancer, neurological disorders, and more. It is imperative that meaningful and effective anti-aging interventions are identified and deployed in order to ease the transition from a younger to a gradually older population. Epigenetics involves the modification of gene expression without changing the underlying DNA sequence. Importantly, many recent scientific studies demonstrate the connection between epigenetics, especially DNA methylation, and aging. To date, analyzing changing DNA methylation patterns at key genes is the most accurate way to quantify the aging process. Understanding the connection between epigenetics and the aging process allows us to gain deeper insight into the mechanisms that cause aging, with the ultimate hope of devising interventions that will potentially lead to better health and longevity.    Dr. Booher highlights the use cases for this new type of testing and it's used for those individuals or teams wanting to understand what protocols, training regimes, food plans, supplement regimes etc impact their own aging and how you can maybe even turn back the clock ticking on us all.   Get yourself tested and find out your biological age at: https://www.mydnage.com/ Use the code 'LISA15" to get a 15% discount on the cost of the test   Watch Dr. Keith's Ted Talk  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeT1RcwsDMc     We would like to thank our sponsors for this show:   www.vielight.com   Makers of Photobiomodulation devices that stimulate the brains mitocondria, the power houses of your brains energy, through infrared light to optimise your brain function.  To get 10% off your order use the code: TAMATI at www.vielight.com     For more information on Lisa Tamati's programs, books and documentaries please visit www.lisatamati.com    For Lisa's online run training coaching go to https://www.lisatamati.com/page/runningpage/ Join hundreds of athletes from all over the world and all levels smashing their running goals while staying healthy in mind and body.   Lisa's Epigenetics Testing Program https://www.lisatamati.com/page/epigenetics/ Get The User Manual For Your Specific Genes Which foods should you eat, and which ones should you avoid? When, and how often should you be eating? What type of exercise does your body respond best to, and when is it best to exercise? Discover the social interactions that will energize you and uncover your natural gifts and talents. These are just some of the questions you'll uncover the answers to in the Lisa Tamati Epigenetics Testing Program along with many others. There's a good reason why epigenetics is being hailed as the "future of personalized health", as it unlocks the user manual you'll wish you'd been born with!  No more guesswork. The program, developed by an international team of independent doctors, researchers, and technology programmers for over 15 years, uses a powerful epigenetics analysis platform informed by 100% evidenced-based medical research. The platform uses over 500 algorithms and 10,000 data points per user, to analyze body measurement and lifestyle stress data, that can all be captured from the comfort of your own home   For Lisa's Mental Toughness online course visit:  https://www.lisatamati.com/page/mindsetuniversity/ Develop mental strength, emotional resilience, leadership skills and a never quit mentality - Helping you to reach your full potential and break free of those limiting beliefs.    For Lisa's free weekly Podcast "Pushing the Limits" subscribe on iTunes or your favorite podcast app or visit the website  https://www.lisatamati.com/page/podcast/     Transcript of the Podcast:      Speaker 1: (00:01) Welcome to pushing the limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential with your host, Lisa Tamati, brought to you by Lisatamati.com welcome to pushing the limits. Speaker 2: (00:12) Let's see everyone. Thanks for joining me again today. I have a scientist to guest on the show, Dr. Keith Booher. Now, Dr. Keith is a molecular biologist and he works for a company called mydnage.com. Now this is a company that uses Dr. Steve Horvath's epigenetic clock. This tells us our biological age. So we have a very interesting conversation around the difference between your biological age your, your chronological age, and also the method of telling how old you are based on your DNA. So we're looking at DNA methylation as opposed to some of the other processes that look at biological aging from other factors. And we get to into a deep dive about looking at your biological age. Now this is really interesting from a perspective from coaching, from I'm trying to draw a line in the sand to see where you are now. Speaker 2: (01:08) And I can see this having benefits. We are looking at it for our mastermind program where we're thinking about having this as our baseline to start from where we can actually see what your biological age is at one point in time when you start. And then using that as we go through our program to see how you come out at the other end. And hopefully you would have lost a number of years off your life as far as your biological ages going. So this was a very interesting deep dive into this topic. So I hope you enjoy the show. And just before we go over to Dr Keith just like to remind you that I have my book relentless coming out in just a couple of weeks time or four weeks time and it's on the 11th of March and launches, it's available for preorder now you can jump on my website, hit the shop button and preorder it. Speaker 2: (01:57) And at moment you'll get access to my mindset Academy mindsetu for free. If you join or buy the book in the preorder stage, you'll also get a discount. It'll normally be retailing for $35. You'll get it for $29 plus you get access to mindset, you a value of $275. So really good idea to go on and jump and now and get it. And that helps me get the book rolling, get it out into the world. It's been a two year long process. So really excited to see that baby launch. As always, reach out to me if you've got any questions on this episode or on any of the other episodes that we've recorded. And I really appreciate your help with ratings and reviews on iTunes that really helps the show get exposure and of course sharing it with your friends and family if you got value out of it. So thanks and now over to Dr. Keith Booher from mydnage.com. Speaker 3: (02:49) Well, hello everyone. Lisa Tamati speaking and here I'm pushing the limits. I thank you once again for joining me today. I have a wonderful guest, Dr. Keith Booher who is a biochemist. Is that correct case? Speaker 4: (03:02) Yes, that's correctly. So thank you for having me. Speaker 3: (03:04) Yeah, it's wonderful to have you. So Keith is going to talk to us today about the biological clock. He works for a company called mydnage which does testing of the biological age as opposed to your chronological age. And this is a very interesting area we in our company through it continued existing without athletes and clients. So this is something that I'm very interested in finding out more about in cases coined the agreed to come on the show and talk to us about it. So. Okay. Can you give us a little bit of background about who you are and where you come from and, and the work that you're doing? Speaker 4: (03:46) Yes, certainly. So, so my name is Keith Booher. I'm a scientist. I worked for the company epi Morphe that offers the mydnage test. This isn't a epigenetic, a base test to quantify aging or biological age. And my background I got a PhD in biological chemistry. I'm from the university of California, Irvine here in Southern California right now. They've worked and where the company's headquartered. I then joined a research companies. I'm a research, Oh, also in California when I started doing epigenetics research in an industrial setting and then transitioned to a, working with the epi Murphy and offering the mydnage test. Speaker 3: (04:28) Wonderful. So can you tell us a little bit, well, for the listener, what is epigenetics and the area of study of epigenetics and what is on those a biological clock? Speaker 4: (04:39) Yeah, so I think, so the scientific, no definition of epi genetics, so it's a biological term. So simply refers to any changes in gene expression that occur without altering the primary DNA sequence. So what that sort of means in lay context is any, any instance where our genetics interacts with the environment. So sort of nature versus nurture a concept. So what epigenetics then does at the molecular level is to help control gene expression or to help turn genes on or off, or how strongly genes are expressed in the cell. I think an analogy that I've heard before, which is it's not perfect, but I think gives you the idea would be that our genes, our genetics, it'd be the hardware with which we operate. And epigenetics would be the software or instructions that tells that hardware what to do. Speaker 3: (05:33) Wow. Okay. So, so in other words, our environment, what we eat they, the, the, the, the toxins in our environment. Eric's the size, whether we do any or not, all of these things will have an effect on how our genes express themselves. So we've gone as sort of DNA code, which we can't really change. Yeah. What genes are turned on and off can be affected by environment. That, correct. Speaker 4: (05:58) Yeah, that's absolutely correct. So there's lots of studies looking at how epigenetics change in response to environment. So this, you know, in the past decade, decade and a half, there's been a lot of progress made by the scientific community. So we know that you know, people that go on a controlled exercise regimen you know, when they start versus a, when they stop after six months and compared to control group. So there are genetic changes that, that occur in a skeletal muscle. So we know that people have also looked at adipose or the fat tissue and also seeing epigenetic changes in response to certain exercise programs. We also know that smokers have a different epigenetic, I'm marks highly correlative with smoking. Mmm. That these epigenetic marks behind people in certain occupations where they're exposed to a lot of environmental pollutants such as coal miners, a certain factory workers also have pronounced epigenetic changes compared to those that aren't occupied in such fields. Speaker 4: (07:04) I think another, sorry, maybe another example just to really, it would be easy to understand is if you look at twins. So twins are genetically identical individuals. However, through the course of their lives. So we know what, you know, when they're young, we can take it classmates in grade school with some twins. I mean, you couldn't tell them apart. Right. But if we think of older twins, you know, throw the course of their lives, you know, they maybe move to different places there obviously the families that they no start you know, they have different sort of traditions, different diets perhaps they like to eat, you know, brought in from their own partners and all these different influences impact their epigenetics. Right? So these still genetically identical individuals but the epigenetics change based on their environment and their lifestyle and when they're older, they actually don't resemble each other as much as they did when they were. Yeah, sure. Speaker 3: (07:59) That's really good example of, of, of the, the power of epigenetics isn't it? I saw a photo of a pair of twins that I think were on the Oprah Winfrey show years ago. And two ladies, one very, very overweight one, one not and the identical twins. It's a really, it's an easy way to understand how much your environment fix your epigenetics of fakes your and how you end up. So in other words, we can't just blame mum and dad and our ancestors for what we've got. We have some responsibility for how we tune out. Is that right? Speaker 4: (08:37) Yeah, that's right. And I think it's it's actually allows us to take control and you know, kind of dictate where we want to be so we can, we're not destined for some, you know, fate just based on our, our genetics. We, we can actually influence what those genetics do. Speaker 3: (08:55) Yeah. So is this so I'm, I, I've read a lot of Dr. Bruce Lipton's work and books. And you know, I have found this whole area really, really fascinating and it's pretty new, isn't it? In the scientific world, like we're talking what the last 30, 40 years or Mmm. Oh, that, that scientists have really understood that the, it's not just your DNA that makes you who you are. Is it pretty new field? Speaker 4: (09:22) Yes and no. So I think we're all familiar with the Charles Darwin and in his theories on evolution. He's one of the preeminent scientists, the modern world. Actually before Darwin, there's a French, a scientist and philosopher, a Lamarck who, you know, he actually predicted that the, you know, wow. What are our, our parents or the mother and father the type of lifestyle they live. Okay. Their environment will impact. Mmm. The children. So it's actually a heritable trait passed on just based on, so he said that if you were, if your parents, did you follow with a blacksmith, you know, all the hard work that makes them strong will then be passed onto to his children. Mmm. And like a giraffe that you know, needs to a stretch to reach the the leaves from on the tallest branches of the tree will, you'll get a longer neck and then that'll be passed down for the next generation. Speaker 4: (10:17) And this is, this is a way that, okay. Drafts have evolved. Mmm. Once Darwin's theories came out and were tested you know, Mendell then proved how genes, I kind of demonstrated how James can, can, can behave. A lot of the marks, theories were just you know, kind of put in the, the dustbin of history and he was sort of left off, you know, these were, these were sort of thought as ridiculous principles, but a sure enough, as you, as you just mentioned, Lisa, in the past several decades, actually, the Mark's original theories have been proven to be a, have a lot of Yeah. He was before his time. And we know this to be true. I mean, the, the biology is clear that and then we're learning more about it all the time. And even in I think 2014 as these studies were coming out more and more showing the power epigenetics you know, a portrait of what Mark was on the cover of nature magazine and they kind of featured and, you know, paid homage to his, his original theories. Speaker 3: (11:15) Wow. What a shame. He wasn't around to say that a bit. That would have been the kinds of a lot of things. So in other words, so when we're talking evolution here or intergenerational . I, I read some way that, for example, when a mother smokes and the baby's in the, in the womb, that that can affect the baby's DNA and then it can affect also who children's DNA. Is that correct? The intergenerational nature, or is that a Zeta? It's not, is it epigenetics or is that more genetic changes? Speaker 4: (11:54) Oh, well, so any genetic change that's altered in a, what we call the germline. Oh, you know, the the male gametes are the chemo sites. That's certainly genetically heritable changes that occur in our you know, the scan for example, know if we know examples that give rise to cancer or something don't. So those wouldn't be heritable. Right. So like if something like skin cancer epigenetics, then, so, so for it to be heritable, it has to occur in the germline so that that would be the same for genetics or, right. Yeah. So we, so certainly genetic change is hard. I mean, that's, that's very clear. Epigenetic is it seems to also be true. There's lots of circumstantial evidence. It's very difficult to do these studies in humans for obvious reasons. Hmm. Other studies and other types of model organisms, the biologists often used to study different phenomenon indicates that indeed epigenetic inheritance inheritance is, is a observed phenomenon. I think it's very strong evidence in plants. I mean, these, these, these traits are, I mean, they persist for it. Dozens of generations in mammals, you know, maybe more temporal. So two to three or even four generations, but not not, not that stable, but it appears that they are here. Speaker 3: (13:16) Wow. Okay. So so we can affect our whole, yeah, the intergenerational aspect of it is quite interesting, but if we, if we just back up a little bit now and go into the dr Steve Horvath's work in the Horvath clock and I believe that is the basis of the work that has his work is the basis of, of the testing that you do. Can you explain what dr Horvath discovered and what that means for biological age and what, you know, how, how, how we can use it perhaps? Speaker 4: (13:50) Yeah. So this biological aging or epigenetic aging clock. So dr Horvath I think is the worldwide leader in this research. So he originally published a study in 2013. There was actually another study that came out actually a little before his that did something very similar. So I should mention too, it, he's, dr Horvath is a professor at UCLA. Oh. Petitioning biologists, computational biologists. So what both these research groups did, so her about that UCLA and then another group led by Hannah at a UC San Diego. So both in Southern California. So what they did was they looked at the epigenetic, a data for thousands of individuals and the applied some complex statistical mathematical algorithms. And what they found was that there were patterns of a change, epigenetic change that occurs with age. And so by of tapping into these different patterns, they could develop a model that would predict [inaudible] predict age based on epigenetic information. So, so that's where the clock came from. So basically, depending on what your epi genetics show, you can then assign a biological age Speaker 3: (15:05) Without any information. On the individual yourself. If you can take just a drop of blood, you can actually say with, with pretty, hi Jackness call it 98, the single thing. How well would that individual is based on the work from dr Hova? So most people fall into this, this Linea Patton that would say, well, this person has these markers on the DNA before that person is the Savage, is that how it works? Speaker 4: (15:42) That's correct. That's correct. So I think there's one. So it's not, it's not just that you want to predict an age, but it's actually a signing up biological age. Yes. So I think that's a key kind of thing to keep in mind. So no, we talked about the twins earlier, you know, a few moments ago and we can see that some based on, you know, one was overweight and the other was more fit based on their lifestyle choices. So the did the choices that we make in our lives. So whether we exercise or eat a healthy diet other things, Mmm. Influencer epigenetics, which can turn in turn influence our aging. So we can actually have and accelerated aging compared to an average person or actually a slower rate of aging compared to someone else. So the Horvath clock measures that, that biology based on the epigenetics. So, you know, you may be 10 years younger biologically than your chronological age, which would be indicative of, you know, good health or good cause I've stopped choices you've made. Speaker 3: (16:45) Do you see big swings in the like, you know, 10 years or is it mostly that most people are in the, you know, within a year or two off via at their actual chronological age. Speaker 4: (16:56) So most people will be within a year or two. That's, that's Mmm, that's what you know, Horvath and others have shown. And that's what we see in our data. However you do see outliers. And I think every time we see a case where someone is okay, we do see 10 or, or greater years difference. Wow. It, it seems to be associated with, I mean, it almost in every case, there's some reason why. So some known this person may be suffering from a genetic disease or I think one thing common in, and you know, people we've looked at is, Oh, they've been treated with chemotherapy. So these are very powerful drugs that you know, obviously to, to treat cancer, but I have very strong side effects. I mean, this is very well known. These, you know, some are just not tolerated well at all. And we know these, these type of people have actually accelerated aging, very rapid aging compared to an average person. Mmm. Speaker 3: (17:53) Do you see the other way like, people who have lived a, you know, extremely good, healthy lifestyle with good food, good exercise not too much stress you know, 18 or more years younger than there a chronological edge. Speaker 4: (18:08) So I don't think just for lifestyle choices, I don't think we've seen a huge effect in that regard. But there we have seen some strong effect. I think for certain people are doing certain targeted interventions, it's a little more and just trying to eat more vegetables or run a little further. These are taking drugs. So I think Metformin Speaker 3: (18:32) hmmm Speaker 4: (18:33) There's one that's looked at very seriously for some of these anti-aging effects and we do see a pretty consistent, strong effect towards a slower aging. Yeah. Speaker 3: (18:44) [Inaudible] Is a, is an interesting one because it doesn't let up think though negatively the, the mitochondria. And, but, but it was a little bit confusing when I looked into just some surface level research on Metformin thinking, gosh, this sounds interesting. I want to have that. It, it produces more longevity, but it can damage the mitochondria. How would that work? Because your mitochondria, your rap part of this whole metabolic pertussis, I mean, it's probably too deeper questions to ask you, you know, but do you know why? Speaker 4: (19:20) Well, that's, that's a very good question, huh? The short answer is no one knows why. So, so yeah, there's sort of a antagonistic effects on or seemingly that would, that would associated with adverse health outcomes. But the data showed, we know it has been prescribed for type two diabetics years and has very good outcomes. And it seems to be off target prescribed for other melodies as well. You know, that the side effects are, are small. I mean, that's just based on you know, lots of people taking the drug. It seems that small side effects and clearly the benefits in most cases outweigh the whatever side effects may occur. Mmm. As to the reason why, I mean, it may be that the positive affects to regulate glucose metabolism, insulin, Speaker 3: (20:16) Yup. Speaker 4: (20:18) Maybe more important than the damage it causes or we have you know, just backup systems to deal with mitochondrial damage or stress that we don't have as robust. I mean, just as you know, living human beings that we don't have for when our glucose metabolism goes awry. Speaker 3: (20:35) So you know, that would be especially the case for, you know, people with diabetes or prediabetes. It has the same effect then on the healthy, you know the healthy person who doesn't have insulin resistance or any glucose Speaker 4: (20:49) Problems. So, yeah. So we get this, I get this question a lot. I would be very careful about just taking any drugs, you know, getting home from certain websites for example, I would, I would consult a physician for that. Yeah. Yeah. Cause I know your listeners are probably very interested on what types of things they can do to, to help them. Speaker 3: (21:15) Nobody don't go out there and do anything solid, not advocating this. We definitely won't. But, but it's interesting to look at the data. I know that there was a study done just a couple of years ago, I think by dr Horvath where they were able to reverse the, the epigenetics Speaker 4: (21:33) Clock Speaker 3: (21:34) In a small clinical study by giving people growth hormone and to diabetic medications, I believe. One. Mmm. And they took two and a half years off the year. Speaker 4: (21:49) Mmm. Speaker 3: (21:49) I'll say biological Speaker 4: (21:51) Age. Speaker 3: (21:53) That's, that's pretty exciting to actually be able to reverse. I mean, I know this was a small clinical trial and, and certainly not a big one. And obviously it's a very difficult area to do big blocks studies end, but a w would suggest that we're going to be able to in future reverse the aging process, which is super exciting rather than just slowing it down. Speaker 4: (22:17) Yeah. So this was the study you mentioned was a, that was a big one. So there's a lot of I don't know a lot, but there's a, there's a decent amount of studies you know, the Horvath and others have been involved in showing on ways to slow the rate of aging. But I was at a, a, a conference actually I gave a presentation along with the, dr Horvath was a keynote speaker and there was another, a surgeon Jim Watson. No. And Jim Watson said, you know, we think that we will be able to reverse actually reverse the clock. And Horvath was, this was January, 2018. He was pretty, he pushed back pretty hard on that idea. He said, you know, there's, there's nothing we found that can actually reverse aging clock. I, there's nothing in the data that shows that, you know, Jim Watson, he's a, he's a prominent Sergeant, you know, he works with patients and you know, from his medical person, he's like, well, I respectfully disagree. Yeah. And if you look at the authors on the paper, you mentioned Steve Horvath, but actually Jim Watson is, I think he's a senior author on that. Mmm. They ended up collaborating after this, you know, and [inaudible] looking into ideas from the medical side and then from, you know, dr horvath, you know, using this, these, these epigenetic aging clocks. And sure enough just as you mentioned, the study showed it was small, but it showed clearly that the aging was reversed to these individuals Speaker 3: (23:39) In a, in a very short space of time too, which is exciting to think what would happen if these interventions were, you know, extrapolated over a longer period of time. Mmm. Speaker 4: (23:52) Yeah. That's, that's right. I, you know, if you look at the, the intervention in that case, it was a drug cocktail. It was a two, two hormones, DTA I think human growth Speaker 3: (24:05) Yeah. Speaker 4: (24:06) And then I met foreman again was a drug they use to kind of help regulate some of the hormonal side effects of those drugs. And it was this three drug cocktail. Mmm. The the original goal of that study was to help reverse some of the immune decline. It had been well documented. We know our immune system starts to decline and as we grow older and the famous of course this organ that it functions in immune, you know, healthy immune function tends to get weaker and shrink. And so that's what the, the study was originally designed to just boost thymus function in the immune system. And okay. The authors showed clearly with, yeah, with, with clinical measurements, famous enemy and functions were restored and it was then shown, that's when Horvath came in and looked at the the epigenetics to show that actually reversed in these people who had responded well to the treatment. So Speaker 3: (25:04) Yeah, that's a short time frame as you mentioned. Yeah. Yeah. Very exciting. There's hope for us who are aging that we bought. So hurry up. You guys get started in so with the, the Magii and H test which people, you know, the public can go and get the SKUs. So if you wanting to actually, after listening to this episode want to go and just what your biological ages, I'll give you the address. It's just my, my DNA h.com. So DNA G a.com and you can order a test the and have the stun, which I, I'm, I'm finding fascinating from a coaching perspective and from an athlete's perspective to be able to draw a line in the sand and say, well, this is where we started from. And then we, you know, instigate L a epigenetic program for example, and our training regimes and nutrition and so on. Speaker 3: (26:00) And then perhaps in six to 12 months time retest to see what the I need a fake was. So I'm, I'm excited to be able to hopefully incorporate this into some of our, of our programs. And one of the reasons I reached out you today when we, let me go to the, look at the the testing that you do. So you're looking at the DNA methylation, is that right? Mmm. Can you explain what the United w what exactly that you're looking there with the, when you're looking at the methylation marks on DNA? Speaker 4: (26:36) Yeah, yeah, that's right. So we're looking at DNA methylation. So know anyone who wants to use our test, I might, do you need Speaker 3: (26:44) To test? Speaker 4: (26:45) We would send them a kit. Mmm. We would it comes with you know, slow land so we can take a blood drop. Mmm. That's put into a, you know, a special preservation stage or buffer solution. Speaker 3: (26:57) [Inaudible] Speaker 4: (26:57) Your preserve the integrity of the sample and then it can just be mailed back at room temperature. So it doesn't need to be frozen or cold or anything. I think also send a urine sample as well. So it's, it's, it's up to the it's each individual if they feel comfortable with, Mmm. That's sent back to us from the blood or urine sample. We will extract the DNA and then perform some fancy chemistry to quantify DNA methylation levels at a panel of genes that are known to be highly associated or highly informative of aging. Speaker 3: (27:32) Huh. Speaker 4: (27:33) Based on those values, we can then plug it into a mathematical model to predict the biological age. And again, this is, this is based off of a, you know, Horvath and others of the based on original publications. We sort of make it a economic one available too. And Speaker 3: (27:54) Sorry, Carry on. Speaker 4: (27:58) So we can make that that technology, which would otherwise not be accessible to non scientists. The general public, we can make it accessible to them. So they can, they can get their own biological age assessment. Speaker 3: (28:10) Yeah. It's really, really exciting. So, so you're looking at around 2000 different James. Mmm how do you, how do you express it? He was signs on there. They had assigned basically there was damage here. So you're looking at damage, Marcus. Speaker 4: (28:30) It's not, it's not famous markers per se. So specifically it's, it's DNA methylation. So a methyl group is a, you know, if you think from your organic chemistry, this is the most the oxidized form of carbon. A ch three is added to DNA and basis known as cytosines any basis on the cytosines. And when it's added biologically, what's going on at the molecular level is it's influencing gene expression. So helping genes turn on or off, on or off. Mmm. And these levels change over the course of our lives and it's this change that can then be related to, to, to the Speaker 3: (29:12) Marcus. Okay. I get that. Yeah. So does it take into consideration things like inflammation or cardiovascular health or kidney and liver function or metabolic metabolic state as well? Or is that readable from the DNA? Speaker 4: (29:32) Not with, not with the mighty age test. So if there's something specific like that, again, I'm in consultation with a physician. If you're worried about your Speaker 5: (29:41) Kidney health, metabolic health, Mmm. Then, right. You know, there's more specific tests to directly look at. Right, right. I think as a pan health indicator it gives you some information. Right. Cause I know that there is you know, other companies that do biological age tests that are based not on the Horvath clock, but on, I'm looking at these are the tops of biomarkers, like your inflammation, inflammation, they've always been your, your cardiovascular health. And I was trying to understand what is the difference in the, in the approach, you know, in the approaches and which one is, Mmm. Well going to give us some more exact calculation if you like. Do you know of the other ones and the difference between, well I mean, so there's, there's a lot, you know, people have been using like in a doctor's office, just a grip, the grip test, your vape. Speaker 5: (30:39) How will you walk? Yeah. The way you walk. But you know, there's a really broad era for those, for people you know, between the ages of teen until some point in your, your older years. Mmm. It's just not very, not very good. It's very precise, very precise. There's other molecular tests. Even if you look at DNA methylation or epigenetic tests, they may focus on a single gene or just a few genes having a, a more focused, you lose a lot of robustness so they can be more susceptible to small changes or small, Mmm. Environmental insults that may actually not have a big impact. So by incorporating thousands of sites into the tests, which, or my teenage test does, it's more robust to small changes. So overall picture. Yeah, that would be it. You know, cause when I heard about things like grip strength and stuff, I was like, well, if I got into the gym a lot, obviously I'm going to have a lot more grip strength. Speaker 5: (31:39) It doesn't necessarily, I'm biologically younger. Right, right. Yeah. Basically you say, I have a normal or we're better than average. Right. Or it's not good. Right? I mean that's, you get kind of a yes or no kind of a yes, yes. But it's not, it's difficult to say, you know, you know, you're looking at the also your body type, you know, like, and with your, you're a muscular person or you're a someone who is more of a flexible person, you know, there's, there's just too much. Okay. Wavering in the air. I mean things like inflammation markers of course. Can you look at the state of your health but perhaps notch the actual, you know, whether it's having damage, you mean you can have inflammation markers because you've got a cold as well, which would be skew the data satisfied. and a bad week. Speaker 5: (32:35) Yeah. And this wouldn't happen with the, with us taste. So how w I know you've done a Ted talk that I listened to that was very interesting thing and wants to look that up. We can put that in the show notes as well. We've got an aging world population and we have huge problems all around the world without, but their health care system. I think we probably can all agree with that. We're heading into times where chronic disease is going to be costing economically, governments in, in, in, you know, a lot of suffering around the world and a lot of resources. Mmm. So increasing health span is, is a very important piece of being able to lower the costs involved with chronic disease. Would you see that as being one of the areas where this this theory or science is really, really key and an important from a, from an economic standpoint as well as from the personal suffering standpoint? Speaker 5: (33:39) Right. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Right, right. I think the potential to benefit society is really there's a, there's a lot a DNA aging test, epigenetic aging tests can, can provide. So it is clearly the best tool, two, assess, aging accurate and precise way. Mmm. And so by using this tool, I mean, whether it's, you know, our company and our researchers doing, you know, in their own labs are their own ways. Mmm. Those interventions which will have the greatest benefit can be more rapidly identified and no, very okay track to be very cheap. I'm an actress. So this, I think this is, you know, beyond just individual testing, which I think is important. And, you know, very interesting people empower themselves by getting some information here, but broader for the broader impact it can have on society. It can be really profound. Yeah. And I know you've, you've done a little bit of work with you mentioned the, in your, in your talk you know, looking at things like sporting H, you know, like how if kids are really in the right age group or people who don't have documents working out how old they are. Speaker 5: (34:56) When they coming into countries perhaps as, as refugees without, without any paperwork and things like that. There's a, there's a, there's a whole lot of areas that this could be utilized and couldn't it. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So the the youth age testing I think that's, there's sort of a, the, the, the consequences are not as, as grave as like, you know, that aging population in Europe, you know, to some extent, North America and Asia. But but I, it just goes to show the potential applications for something like that. And I actually just learned that, you know, I did some work with [inaudible] law enforcement in Germany a couple of years ago for some for forensics application of using this aging. You can sort of the gauge person of interest in different law enforcement investigations. And in part thanks that work actually I just found out that lie in Germany changed December Oh about 2019. Speaker 5: (36:01) Sort of allow this scientific approach, you too well know wow. To work out someone's is being adopted in a lot of different areas. And I mean, Oh yeah. And, and for me I think in working in the, in the health as a health professional and, and training people and so on, it's just going to give us another, I'm wiping the Nantucket toolkit to get people motivated and moving and having a benchmark is really important I think for us to, well, this is where we started from and hopefully through different health interventions, we can see other results. Is there any way that we can, is there any of those things that are quantified, like what, what people are, you know, that are doing your tests perhaps and then doing different interventions, obviously not as a clinical study, but are you gathering any of the data of the interventions that people are undertaking to change the biological age? Speaker 5: (37:01) Let's see. What has it effect? So I mean, we have to be sort of careful about this, right? So that, I mean, the personal information of ours customers is yes. Obviously I can only do so much, right? I mean we're not, we're not trying to but so what I can say, we work with clinics, certain clinics doctors. So the doctors are incorporating this test into part of their medical practice and whether they're advising certain, you know, dietary interventions or different exercise programs or they can use this for their medical practically, I mentioned Metformin earlier. We are working with the group by testing this. So that's something that we, yeah, we can say has had a, yeah, a two. The rate of aging in these, in the samples, the subjects that we've examined. Mmm, yeah. Mmm. Yeah. Yeah. So that's got an interesting future too. I mean, what, what are you think, so are there any interventions which have been proven besides a Metformin and growth hormone? Mmm. To actually slow down the aging or to pervasive stop the aging process? Mmm, well that have been proven to be beneficial as it, you know, like lifestyle interventions. So yes, yes, there are. So, but I, I needed qualify that. So this has been clearly shown to occur in laboratory animals, so model research organisms and a lot of these, Speaker 4: (38:34) These pathways a Speaker 4: (38:35) Evolutionarily shared all the way from, you know, simple East to or complex organisms like fruit flies and more recently into mammals like mice lab, mice rats or even nonhuman primates. So there's clearly potential. Mmm. You know some of these interventions are related to altering metabolic pathways, insulin response. Mmm. Mmm. I think one that's gained a lot of interest in you know, the broader news media is this compound resveratrol. Yes. Resveratrol found in a grapes in higher concentrations, in certain nuts. I'm certain it's been shown to activate certain pathways related to protecting our DNA or protecting our genes and genomes and also influencing that metabolism in certain ways. So in laboratory animals, there's clear evidence to show that aging can be slow to reverse. In humans it's not as clear. So again, it's more difficult to do these types of studies. Speaker 4: (39:39) Okay. Ethical and logistical reasons. Yeah. But the Metformin is a hot candidate drug especially because it is well tolerated. So, so this may be something that can be easily prescribed. And individuals we mentioned the study that came out last last fall where the the growth hormone and Metformin combination reverse the aging in this was in a small court of men from the ages of 52 late sixties, I think. Years of age. Mmm. In terms of those are for reversing the aging clock. There's also evidence showing that the clock can be slowed from simple lifestyle changes. So if you think about diet, so it appears that, you know eating more plants plant based foods, so fruits and vegetables. So right carotinoids levels in the blood. You know, indicators of the. Speaker 4: (40:37) Okay. Metabolism are associated with slower rates of aging. Interestingly, a fish, actually, those who consume more fish, it seems to have the greatest impact on a slowing the rate of aging. Well, okay. That's interesting, huh? Yeah. Even greater than the vegetarian diets. That's what the data indicates at this time, at least. Right. Also you know, we can look at things that accelerate the aging clock. Mmm. So certain corn oil certain insulin levels a triglyceride levels you know, elevated or, or, or levels that are out of whack or associated with an accelerated aging. So these are indicators of a poor diet. Yup. I think one that's a, everyone's sort of interested to hear or happy to hear is that actually moderate alcohol consumption. It's associated with a slower Speaker 3: (41:34) Rate of eating. So, so we have an all glass of red wine with berry in it, Speaker 4: (41:40) I think. I think so. Yeah. Yeah. But this has been a also shown to have beneficial effects on heart health. So it's interesting to see that the studies our agreement, you know, coming back, coming at it from different angles, but, you know, finding beneficial health, mental health. Speaker 3: (41:55) So the, the things that we sort of intuitively know that exercise lots of fruit and veggies and you know, that type of thing. It can definitely slow down the aging clock. It's an exercise aspect of it as Sierra, any sort of data or omit, it's how much and what types of exercise or anything like that. Speaker 4: (42:22) So not that I'm aware of. So not that I'm aware of. But that's, but that's interesting. What you say is, you know, people hear this and they say, okay, great, eat more vegetables. You know, I already knew that. Right. But it's interesting the study, but I think you can see, right. So, okay, yes, vegetables are associated with slow rates of aging. So increase that. So it gives, we can show that in the data, but but what's really interesting about the clock of the state, but if you want, if there was one thing you could pick to slow your rate of aging, actually it's fish, right? So it's, it's a it kinda shows you you know, we can kind of rank these. So what's the most important thing? So, you know, vegetables are important, but actually according to the data fishes is even more important. Mmm. And you knew, and also people that die. While I've been doing vegetables, I've been actively trying to do better in, and so I've already incorporated that, but, well, what else is there that that might be, it might be missing. Oh, so a olive oil seems to be also beneficial. A dietary component. It can be incorporated absolute rate of aging. So, so what the clock does is it's able to quantify these and really pinpoint with some precision what, Speaker 3: (43:33) Yeah, yeah. Rather than just one out a feeling as and what we've, you know, at the top, some studies have seen what about ketones and the key she turned on us. Any, any data there on MCT oils or ketone esters or anything like that? Speaker 4: (43:52) Again, I'm not familiar with those studies. We haven't conducted any and we're not working with anyone specifically looking at this sort of thing that I'm aware of some. Again, you know, a lot of institutes and clinics are incorporating different things. We don't necessarily know what they're doing. I mean, it could be very well be that, you know, some of these changes are being prescribed or administered in certain way. I simply don't know the answer to that. Speaker 3: (44:16) Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, fair enough. So this is, you know, to actually get the data to get some concrete data is actually really, really helpful. And strengthening the arguments for reaching the goals and cutting out the, the donuts and the, the the biscuits in the sugar and so on. And, and the more data we have behind that, the beta what I had dr Andrew go Andrews on, on the podcast. We all would go, I'm looking at telling me and like something and NTA aging. Is there any sort of crossover between those sort of areas, like in the anti aging sciences in do you look at it telling me length is or anything like that in these biological tests or are they completely different area of science? Speaker 4: (45:11) It is different. It is different. So Tila mirrors have been I think before Horvath and Hanham's studies a few years ago came out showing the power of epigenetic aging assessments tumors were probably the most popular, well, I color test to look at this since then. You know, clearly that these DNA methylation clocks are by far the most accurate, most precise and robust to measure biological aging. Horvath and others tried to kind of assess how this interaction between Tealium or Lang and you know, epigenetic change and they found that they're not measuring the same thing. So they in the biology is they're looking at different things. And you know, I, I think for, you know, telomeres, you know, I just, in my opinion, I, I think they've been Sur surpassed by the power of the, you know, yeah. Speaker 4: (46:07) Inherent robustness of looking at epigenetics to assess aging. I think, you know, concrete example of this is so the telomere length, so the longer the telomeres, sort of the slower aging or more youthful, that's, that's the basic idea. And as those shrink, it indicates increased age or advanced age. That's, that's the basic idea. We find that this, you know, completely breaks down. When you look at something like cancer where a hallmark is the ability to increase the length of telomeres to kind of okay. You know, maintain the integrity of cancer cells or tumor size. And if you knew, if you look at it from that perspective, they would look biologically young. If you look at the same type. Okay. Tissue cancer tissue according to the epigenetic clock. I mean, these show very accelerated aging. So it's, it's clear indication of it for health. The telomere tests wouldn't be able to show that at all. You were so good. Sorry. Okay. Speaker 3: (46:59) Thats Really you know, emerging area of science that that's, I'm going to be interesting in the next few years to watch. Mmm. Keith, thank you so much for your time today. Is it, I, I think we've, we've, we've covered quite a lot of ground. Do you think there's anything we've missed out that, that people should hear about? In regards to doing, you know, like doing mydnage test can you actually, because we're sitting in New Zealand and obviously a lot of my lessons are in Zealand and Australia. Can you do the test from that far away when you're going to be seeding it in the post? Speaker 4: (47:33) Yes. So the test, so I think we're just trying to get the but just logistics, business-wise, just the paperwork in order too. We've gotten a lot of demand in Australia, New Zealand, you know, it should be a broadly. Yeah. Currently we're only offering and North America, Mmm. In Europe. Mmm. Canada, U S and . But we're trying to get to a New Zealand, Austria. That should be soon. So any listeners in New Zealand or thereabouts, that should be available very soon. Technically there's no issue. So the once the kids arrive the blood or urine sample can be mixed with the preservative solution. This is preservation. Yeah. Shipped back to our labs in California at room temperature with no problems. Speaker 3: (48:22) Nice. So we should be through that. Still already the tastes, even though you haven't got the laboratories and stuff down here, we came can already, you know, through that and seen it. But look, thank you so much for your time today. I think this is a really interesting area of science. And I'm encouraged people to think about doing these tastes because, you know, I will give you a line in the same tree to motivate you. I think a lot of 'em, you know motivation is a big key to being successful in your, in demons to be better and stronger and be there and plaster and normalize going to good things and tuning the, we're slowing down the clock with tuning back even. So having tastes like this that are available to the public, the weekly is exciting. You know, I think it gives us another thing that we can do that we can then use to help better our lives, you know, as we, as we move forward. Speaker 4: (49:20) Yeah. That's the mission of you know, making this test available to the broader, the broader public, Speaker 3: (49:25) The more things that are available direct to the public, the there or my opinion, it's not dangerous and you know, but being a bit of a biohacker, obviously I have a bit of a, a boss towards having your own power and making your own decisions. But I think this one is a, you know, it's a no brainer. It costs so obviously, but apart from that, if you you want to try this out I'll have the links in the show notes and case thank you so much for your time today. I wish you well with all your studies and with loved side contact and yeah, very, very interesting conversation today. Speaker 4: (50:03) Oh my pleasure. Lisa. It was great to, to speak with you. Thank you very much. Speaker 2: (50:07) If your brain is not functioning at its best in checkout, what the team at vielight.com Do now being like producers, photo biomodulation devices, your brain function, the pin's largely on the health of the energy sources of the brain cells. In other words, the mitochondria and research has shown that your brain with near infrared light revitalizes mitochondria. I use these devices daily for both my own optimal brain function and also for other age-related decline issues and also for my mom's brain rehabilitation after her aneurism and stroke. So check out what the team do vielight.com. That's V I E L I G H T .com. And use the code "TAMATI" and checkout to get 10% of any of their devices. Speaker 1: (50:58) That's it this week for pushing the limits. Be sure to write, review, and share with your friends and head over and visit Lisa and her team at Lisatamati.com.

8 years ago a 22 year old Chloe Hogan was on her way to work at 5.30am one morning. She was gearing up for her second marathon a few weeks out and heading to the gym where she was a PT but disaster struck. An accident, a major one and Chloe was left with a massive brain injury. She lay in a coma for weeks, the Doctors after 19 days telling the family to turn off life support, that there was no hope. 4 days later she awoke and proved them all wrong. But the damage was massive and there wasn't much left of their beautiful daughter. But Brian is a fighter and a feisty Dad who wasn't willing to give up on his beautiful girl so he started researching and working. He ignored all the negative naysayers and powered through years of hard grind, always believing, always looking for the next level and slowly inch by hard won inch they bought Chloe back.  After 4 years they discovered Hyperbaric oxygen therapy, Chloe was still completely wheelchair bound, could only speak very slowly, and was incontinent. After 20 treatments the incontinence was gone, Brian did more sessions with her, another 165 to be exact and slowly combined with thousands of hours of physio, a change in diet and a never say die attitude Chloe got better and better. Now 8 years into their journey Chloe surprised her parents for Xmas with the greatest gift on earth, she took her first steps completely unaided.   Chloes story is outlined in my new book "Relentless" due out on the 11th of March. This book is about bringing my Mother Isobel back after a major aneurysm and stroke left her like a baby and she, like Chloe has clawed her way back. Against all odds and against all the medical professionals prognoses.   You can pre order "Relentless" right now at   https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books/products/relentless and if you grab it right now (before the 1st of February 2020) you will get free access to my MINDSETu online mental toughness ecourse.  Valued at $275.  So hurry over and pre order your copy right now.   To Watch Chloes feature story on TVNZ's 7 Sharp program go here: https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10162529755070114&id=552205113&sfnsn=mo   and reach out to Chloe on Facebook at Chloe M S Hogan.   We would like to thank the sponsors for this show  www.vielight.com Makers of Photobiomodulation devices that stimulate the brains mitocondria, the power houses of your brains energy, through infrared light to optimise your brain function.  To get 10% off your order use the code: TAMATI at www.vielight.com     We would like to thank our sponsors:     For more information on Lisa Tamati's programs, books and documentaries please visit www.lisatamati.com    For Lisa's online run training coaching go to https://www.lisatamati.com/page/runningpage/ Join hundreds of athletes from all over the world and all levels smashing their running goals while staying healthy in mind and body.   Lisa's Epigenetics Testing Program https://www.lisatamati.com/page/epigenetics/ Get The User Manual For Your Specific Genes Which foods should you eat, and which ones should you avoid? When, and how often should you be eating? What type of exercise does your body respond best to, and when is it best to exercise? Discover the social interactions that will energize you and uncover your natural gifts and talents. These are just some of the questions you'll uncover the answers to in the Lisa Tamati Epigenetics Testing Program along with many others. There's a good reason why epigenetics is being hailed as the "future of personalized health", as it unlocks the user manual you'll wish you'd been born with!  No more guesswork. The program, developed by an international team of independent doctors, researchers, and technology programmers for over 15 years, uses a powerful epigenetics analysis platform informed by 100% evidenced-based medical research. The platform uses over 500 algorithms and 10,000 data points per user, to analyze body measurement and lifestyle stress data, that can all be captured from the comfort of your own home   For Lisa's Mental Toughness online course visit:  https://www.lisatamati.com/page/mindsetuniversity/ Develop mental strength, emotional resilience, leadership skills and a never quit mentality - Helping you to reach your full potential and break free of those limiting beliefs.    For Lisa's free weekly Podcast "Pushing the Limits" subscribe on iTunes or your favorite podcast app or visit the website  https://www.lisatamati.com/page/podcast/   Transcript of the Podcast:    Speaker 1: (00:01) Welcome to pushing the limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential with your host, Lisa [inaudible], brought to you by Lisatamati.com Speaker 2: (00:13) If your brain is not function at its best, then check out the team at vielight.com. Vielight producers photo biomodulation devices. Your brain function depends largely on the health of the energy sources of the brain cells, the mitochondria. Now research has shown that stimulating your brain with near infrared light revitalizes mitochondria. I use these devices daily for both my own optimal brain function and to slow age-related decline and also for my mom's brain rehabilitation after her aneurysm in stroke. So check out what the team at Vielight like, do it and use the code Tamati. That's T A M A T I at checkout to get a 10% discount on any of the devices. Speaker 3: (00:59) Hi everybody, Lisa Thomas to hear it pushing the limits. And today I have a very special couple of guests with me, Brian Hogan and Chloe Hogan all way from Oakland. Hi guys. How you doing? Good. Thanks. Good morning Lisa. We've had a little bit of technical troubles trying to get you on here, but we've worked it out. So now I have, this is a very special story guys that I wanted to share with you, the audience because Conway's had an incredible difficult journey and who did in a family. And I wanted to shoot a little bit of the story because it sort of parallels a little bit. And so I'm going to start with you. Brian, we what actually happened to Chloe? Can you take us back eight years ago. Speaker 4: (01:49) Okay. Well in the morning of the 22nd her birthday, like she left to go to work at around five 30 in the morning and when about full bath rate case down the road, she for some unknown reason the stage well, what we want you to get or not chase way up to miss something on the road. There was a funny morning. Speaker 3: (02:10) Yup. Speaker 4: (02:11) Yeah, she lost control of the car and slammed passenger side on a heavy concrete pap on. She sustained a traumatic brain injury. Fortunately, there was a, a chromo theater nurse. Well, living within steady. Yeah. 30 meters of the crash. Yeah. It has been, came out sort of situation called the called his wife came out and she stabilized Slatery way stabilized, got a breathing soon after that. Somebody had run a very one of my mum and the ACE arrived and then the ambulance arrived and she was taken to Middlemore hospital. Yeah, no, we were there and it's seven o'clock in the morning, we're gonna knock on our door and our street placements, standing here and of course you get to wonder what this is all about. You think the worst and it was the worst or most and they say cloud and being involved in an accident and that she was very serious. Speaker 4: (03:08) Accident was Neha terminology. A great 9. And right team is a fatality, so like currently offers to drive us through the middle more, which they did at great speed. And we arrived to fund how he had been stabilized in the hospital and that she was totally unconscious. Of course it was hooked up to all sorts of houses and gadgets. And then they then we were told that they didn't have the, the equipment to continue the treatment there she needed through the engine and eventually medical intervention. So put it in an ambulance. And again, we following her, rushed through to walk hospital where she went into intensive care and wow. Yeah. So it was quite a day I had a morning. Speaker 3: (03:56) Yes. Yeah. So it was, and so Chloe was only 22 years old. Major brain injury. So she's hanging on for dear life. She's in the hospital. Of course. Clara, you won't remember any of this. Nothing. Thank goodness. That's a really good thing. So Brian, I know that then it was touch and go for a fairly long time. Chloe was in a coma and the ICU unit what was that time in your life like? Speaker 4: (04:27) Well, I guess that first two or three days you are just a sideline, I observed that really, you couldn't do anything. We were totally numb, totally numb, or it was like an out of body experience. You know, the way we can tell the truth is going to poke through and tell that she was going to die really new. So it was a time of great concern and she was blissfully sleeping. Thank goodness. Yes, I was sick. Mmm. But anyway, I think on the third day Dr. Stevens straight cold us coordinating with the family and set the stage, there was a a high likelihood that she wouldn't die. It's a big paper, a long journey and go with it right at the store. Speaker 3: (05:18) So I know that she was in coma for I think 23 days, but a day like 19 or something, they said to you, you might have to turn off the life support. Speaker 4: (05:27) That's correct. That's correct. She was transferred to high to begin and see after, okay. A week out of 'em [inaudible] and after, I think it was the 19th day or the 20th day, real cold to a meeting with them seeking you register on a high dependency ward, Hey saved to S there is no chance Chi [inaudible] out of her coma. Injuries are too severe and you probably the family to consider the alternatives, which was withdrawal of life support. And I pushed a document or pamphlet across the [inaudible] devastated. Speaker 3: (06:08) You were devastated and you actually refused and you're Brian, we've thought about it. Of course you're has five runs. So yeah, you, you basically you, you know, it came to be that you lifted the life support on and thank God you did. Is that what happened? Speaker 4: (06:35) Well, in it to the little no document on the wall that says they can't, that's where they are intervention. You know, I'm on the ward. You lost it all as your rights. Yes. Brilliant. And so that was it. And everyone went away pretty safe. But anyway, just normal for Kali on the . Speaker 3: (06:58) 22 days she woke up, she woke up just four days later and I were expecting her to, you know, not, not wake up even at all. This is pretty frightening though, Brian. If you think about it, like how many times has life support been tuned off when it didn't need to be tuned off? Yeah, yeah. Certainly not three weeks on and to the drama. I remember with my mom, I was, you know, given non resuscitation orders to sign and I wasn't as polite as you just saying. No, I use some stronger language. It wasn't that way. Always still going there. And you know, so after Callie woke up, of course she had massive brain damage. And Chloe, what is the very first memories that you have? How many months passed or you know, your dad will be able to help you here, but how many months before you can actually remember anything? The first thing I remember was the patient. Okay. So you have actual little bits of memory of actually in the, in the hospital, so okay. No, and their rehab. The rehab. Okay. So after hospital. Speaker 4: (08:25) Yeah. Especially as an open book or hospital for two months to Kevin IBI, which was out in route around Nelly and yeah, so that was probably four months after accident before she has that numeric. Speaker 3: (08:41) Wow. And that was the very first one. Now the cloud we have any any movement, any, any speech, any memory of you at all when she, you know, after a couple of months or was she pretty much you know, non functioning Speaker 4: (08:59) Well at open hospital once well she had an issue with biting her tone. Yeah. We all them. So they had to end up vein was gadgets to stop it tongue movement, which was very divisive and terrible. So she had shaved an amount, the must gadgets stuck in the mouth and she had a trunk. Yeah. And she has had a pig on to tell me to be fade. Sorry. She goes, Oh, what up. So even though she had woken up, she had no real response. We couldn't, she couldn't talk. She could say us. And she made, she'd made eye contact. Yeah. The the left side of her body wasn't functioning, so she couldn't see out the left side. And so that will took probably six months to come back slowly. Speaker 3: (09:57) Then we came back. Okay, Speaker 4: (10:00) Well forget, say what, say you on a high rot side, but hang on. Oh God, that ran the wrong way. My left and right. She could say, say on her right side and left side wasn't functioning. So she couldn't say, Hey, we'll stop. Stop. But then anyway, they, it's but now we're getting after the two months when it was obviously she was stabilized and she was reactive. And little by little like pulled some of these troops and things out. But you're so stuck with us math thing. But once the truck and that came out and I was there on the, not a senior nurse sick, well I think she can cope what ourselves and we're going to remove. So she moved there and they pulled them out, I think to me, his daddy. Speaker 3: (10:59) Oh, then it might give so she remember Jude, she had obviously some functions and some memory still there. No really good sign because I'm early on in the pace, you know, it's pretty hard not, you know, you don't know. I know with mum I didn't know whether she knew who I was and what I was or anything. And Tony, you've got a very, very special mum and dad, haven't you? Yep. So you've been now in this journey for eight years and from that time that you woke up from the injury and then that whole time you've been working really, really hard and your heart and your appearance and your family been working really, really hard to bring you back. How hard is this journey been for you and what, what does it mean? Like terrible. Yeah. So hard. Tell me some of the worst things that you've been through. Like at the very beginning you obviously couldn't control anything in your body at all. Speaker 4: (12:04) No. I don't think so. Well she had 'em up a little reasonable. Not reasonable, but okay. Up. I've I've actually, but she had, you know, we had to help feed her every meal, months, probably six months. Like to go back to one thing and it might, your audience might be interested that and for others going through this, you know, I did as much research as possible. Everything. Dr Google is probably really wonderful. Yeah. And one of the other things on that that I found out was stimulation was important no matter what. So while she goes and well while she was in and and not and high dependency, she I used to sing to her. Speaker 3: (13:08) Okay. Speaker 4: (13:09) And I also used the read to this, I agree to a book laugh out loud so she could hear it, but every time I did that end, even my staying here hat right wig down. So she was selling it for around 90 to a hundred beats per minute hot. Right. Well it had dropped her 70 almost every time. So she was getting it. She was, she was [inaudible] and stimulating and that suddenly, you know, for folks that are in the same situation, they might like to try that. There was a young guy at IBO who was a boxer and he sustained a traumatic brain injury in the prefab and his training and he was almost totally climatized. So his mother was, they regulate but wouldn't, she wasn't nice gun sit with him. And I talked to him about boxing and gosh, you just, yeah. You could say he'd smile and he'd give me . Mmm. Your responsible. Sorry. Can I just, as I said, never give up and try it. I was like this possible, but know simulation on happiness. Is it great? Mmm. Speaker 3: (14:23) And I think it's really important that people treat them as if they are the or O'Brian. Don't talk to them as a fan, not reasons or over them. That's what I found very, very frustrating. In the early days, did you find that like they would talk with a car? We didn't exist. Speaker 4: (14:41) Yeah. Do you let the medical staff talk to, talk over her as like when you're in hospital? But I might've pissed no, and I made them talk to her and address that. Ava, she was our sponsor. We just, we just stuck with it. We're not gonna give out. Speaker 3: (15:04) Yeah. And, and giving people that respect, even though they can't respond, is very, very important for anybody who has disabilities or anybody who can't communicate or has had a stroke or brain injury, you know, always give them the full respect that you'd give anybody else and talk to them about this situation. You know, I find that really, really offensive when people don't do that, even though they can't respond. Yeah, you, you went to dr Google. That's exactly what I did. I went like hardcore researching every thing in the universe on brain injury. And I know like for the listeners, Brian and I connected a few years down the track with Curry and actually I was probably half a year in or a year and with mom's rehab when we connected, I think, and you rang me one day about hyperbaric oxygen therapy and see what I, what I thought about that. I think you'd, yeah. Tell us a little bit about that journey cause that happened already. That was already four years in or so to two colleagues rehab, is that right? Speaker 4: (16:07) Yeah, it was it. Well, almost daily diary, as I said to medical staff, you know, how bout hyperbaric oxygen treatment. And so every single person, every single metal comparison I spoke to gave him no joy at all. Don't know anything about that. That's not proven. It's a hurry. But I, you know, I played, I played in the open rugby up hydrocod color dry for seniors and we played Navy and I took the bait fuck shelf it before it was no blood. Speaker 3: (16:40) Was almost an old black. I'm sure he was glowing Speaker 4: (16:47) That vaccines may or the boys go and you know, we're talking after the guy and mother boys go into the, into the decompression chamber, which I had on the night device, but the next day after the game, and I said, you could watch bruises disappear now that was when I was about 19 or 20. So it was a hell of a year long, long time ago. But that sort of stuck with me. So one of the early things I thought about or have have hyperbaric Novia with it and I, I sort of gave up on it because we got so much negativity from it. Speaker 4: (17:24) But anyway we, she hadn't had an operation, a middle matter hospital to correct her foot. So while we're sitting on the there for bed awakened and I was reading books like really got stuck into this hyperbaric and I found this chamber that's private chamber in, the seven mountain Nelson. And so that was approximately four years. Oh, on this journey. Did we rent them out to her? And Jose, actually, if there's someone who's down the call, I was going through hopper. Greg did, I rang you or she had 2020 treatments of MACRA the first time. And within a week of coming away she'd be, she'd be, she got control of about, so she was before years there was incontinent, a nappy for four years. And and so that, that was just a huge step. Now there was nothing else different than we did the fixed date. Speaker 3: (18:27) So this is 4 years. I want people to listen. Keep it. This is four years into the rehabilitation cause a lot of people have said to me, it's too late. I had a stroke five years ago or 10 years ago. It's now used to be doing that for years after the event. 20 sessions. And you've already got a major, major breakthrough. This might not sound major, but as it is, as both of us and all of us have gone through, being in consonants is major and it's not fun. It's not fun as it Chloe and after 20 treatments to get control, that means that part of the brain is coming back online. That's what that is. And then you, you had to go all the way to map or, so there's a, there's a a medical hyperbaric facility down in map or a Nelson, which I think is unfortunately closing if it hasn't already close his it, Brian. Speaker 4: (19:20) Ah, yeah, it's on the, in the process of closing down, but the much, Oh, absolute tragedy, you know, saying there's so much pressure from people who know about it. So it starts trickling along, but it'll eventually closed. I imagine by the end of this year, Speaker 3: (19:40) If we had, if we had lots of money, we'd go and buy it and get it up and running again. And no. So dr Tim are, is the, is the, is the doctor down there? He was in charge of the costume, a hyperbaric facility before he went in private. Now hyperbaric is a hugely beneficial, and then if you're listening to this guys, he was a, one of the world's leading experts on this podcast over two years ago now, Dr. Scott Scheer, who she has insights and go back and look up and I'll put it in the show notes, the link to that episode because this is really powerful. You did that 20 sessions and then you went back again and this, each time you're taking Kali right down to Nelson, you're staying, living down DHEA, which is a hell of a sacrifice day, isn't it? Speaker 4: (20:24) Oh yeah, I see it. You want to have a holiday? I got him out. Poets. Speaker 3: (20:29) It's a lovely place. But in karma you had to go in this chamber every day pretty much every day. Apart from weekends, weekends I got to go shopping. She's an expensive daughter, isn't she? So how many sessions did you end up having a map or Brian? Speaker 4: (20:52) 195, I think. Speaker 3: (20:54) 95 of the medical grade hyperbaric treatments in as she progressed. What were the things that you saw come back online? Cause when I met she was fully in a wheelchair, unable to stand or anything like that. What happened over there? 185 sessions. There's a lot of sessions, but that's, it's nothing when you compared to a lifetime. Speaker 4: (21:18) Oh yeah. Like it was well it just changed everything. She, she gained weight gain control of her alum. So her feet, you know, the walking out of it, she doesn't and I, I'm a high Walker. Speaker 3: (21:39) Yep. Yep, yep. Speaker 4: (21:40) And she has to have somebody in front of it pulling in somebody behind my conception 40th and the tray. That's as good as she had got. After half the Brack, she was able to walk to the gutter frame and assisted, you know, over a period of talking to them while we were down there. So her fake placement there was a first thing I noticed was probably after 40 stations she could manage her feet and place them in the right place instead of getting them 10 without. So then she was stable on like other friends. So it didn't make a person in front of the person to be healthy. And from that she's going on, she entering the Walker and now she's four, she's walking through and we'll link to basketball court. Speaker 3: (22:27) Wow. Probably tell you you were on television recently. We'd show because it was a Christmas miracle that you gave to your dad. What did, what did you do? May and Jane organized, did they own seven shop? Oh, I wanted to be on TV. Hey, curious, why not? And you showed them and this buddy you showed your dad and your mom, you for the first time taking some steps, is that right? Yeah. And I caught it on camera. I'll put the link to that guy, that video. Guys, these are copies for your steps. Now this is after 195 hyperbaric sessions, thousands of hours of physio therapy. Goodness knows what else you've done as well, Brian, for everything you've done, everything under the sun, pretty much. If someone sees this weird musical therapy, have you stuck? I've got lasers that I stick up mom's nose. I've done everything possible. Speaker 3: (23:33) Yeah, I've still got that. I actually think it's great. You know, in other words, we didn't just, both of us approach this with try everything. If it's risky, try it. And if it's risky, we'll weigh up the risks and we'll have a go at it and research like how, and take responsibility. Don't wait for the medical professionals to give you the go ahead. Don't wait for the green light for hyperbaric therapy. You know, this isn't an advert for five very clear free, but it is a very powerful therapy if you have enough sessions. And it's just an absolute travesty that Maffra is perhaps closing because the regulations around the just terrific. That made it very, very difficult from what I hear for dr terms to function and you leave are these stories. My mum has had 250, half of Barrick sessions. I ended up buying a, what they called a mild hyperbaric chamber, which is not as good as the one in Maffra, but it was the best that we could do. I had the first 53 sessions with you in a, in a proper, if you want to call it then a proper chamber. But it was through a dive company and it was, you know, taken off and we couldn't use it anymore. And I created that would giving me enough brain back of mom's brain that I could then teach you to walk and to do the things. And the same would have been with you I Brian with the, with the, with the policies coming back. Speaker 4: (25:05) Oh yeah, absolutely. And I like fake placements, quite important now with ums and she's got control of them. And I put that down to hyperbaric because nothing else is, well, she's had lots and lots and lots, lots and stuff. But I suppose that's been one of the pickiest parts of the puzzle and putting it back together. Speaker 3: (25:32) It's the key of it because it ha so what hyper hyperbaric does people is it hyper oxygenates your your body. So you're getting about seven times the amount of oxygen into the body and it's compressing the oxygen molecules so that it can actually pass through the blood brain barrier to the parts of the brain that are damaged but not deed. So the deed pats were unable to bring back. But typically around the deep parts of tissue there is what they call way ischemic penumbra and these are cells that are alive but they're not functioning. And these are the ones that we can hopefully target with hyperbaric and bring back. It also hits the inflammation pathways in the brain and in the body. And it also helps produce more STEM cells and all of these things help the body to repair it. So it's not a quick fix. Speaker 3: (26:18) It's something that you need to have a lot of sessions in. But as you can see with probably after four years of not getting very far at all and then having these 185 sessions over the period of, I don't know, a year and a half, two years, she's now walking that is massive. She now has control over her bowels and 40 in control over a hell of a lot more. Whose features also improved greatly, hasn't it? Karma. You're talking pretty now? Cause when I, when I meet slow, yeah. I think when I met you it was quite slow. It was. It was, and that's a huge difference. So it's a hugely powerful and you've got your whole life ahead. You're a super young lady and I know that you've got your 30th birthday coming up. Is that right? You're invited. Oh, I'm invited. It's fantastic. Speaker 3: (27:09) I'll try and get to that point. And so Chloe's dad and I have had sort of exchanged notes along the road, however we, Brian and given each other tips, some trucks of what we've learned along the way. And this has been really a multipronged approach. It's not just the one thing, a huge part of it has been hyperbaric, but it's also thousands of hours and the therapists and training and retraining the mind. It's having the guts and the determination like if Brian wasn't such a feisty, don't take any shirts person who is going to push through every barrier and if I wasn't the same then I don't think mum or Chloe would we be with AR. And by the same token, Chloe and mum are also identical and that they are fighters. They are people that persist that resilient. The positivity that Callie brings to this really difficult journey is nothing short of mind blowing. I've been absolutely astounded to watch you over the last few years on how you've just fought your, your differently. A chip off the old block, aren't you daughter? Speaker 3: (28:23) I have lots of grit. Exactly. So call me. You are just a couple of weeks away from running your first marathon when the accident happened. Day one. So I forgot. I forgot. You'd already need the one. Sorry. I was going to do it and then you want to smash that toe. I'll tell you what though, that dream is still alive in you, isn't it? To athlete again, get out there and race and be in a, in a, in a racing, you've actually done a fiveK , is that right? Yeah. Fun run. And you did it on your, your frame at that time. Zimmer frame funding. Yeah. Speaker 4: (29:14) She doesn't, well, yeah, I guess because it, but yeah, she doesn't walk. Oh by Southwest. We have lots of people around helping her. Oh, and encourage her, right. Very steep that she needed. Speaker 3: (29:30) Yeah. That's insane. That is so amazing. Chloe, you've got mum, I'm up to two Ks with mum. The five K's yet. And story in Brian's story is in my new book, which is coming out in match called relentless. And it's, it's another example of an incredible comeback story. And that's why I was really keen to share this. And Brian is hopefully gonna write the book one day and Brian and chloe, you're gonna get the bums into here and share this insight as well. Even though writing a book is a mission. I hope so because this is an incredible story, Callie and it's not finished yet and she's still got a week wise to go on on. Definitely to get full independence. Ron, do you think Chloe will ever reach full, full independence again and be able to no flat on her own or, or live in a house with, with flatmates and they talked to them. Speaker 4: (30:28) Oh, without a doubt. But they have a death. Speaker 3: (30:30) Really? That's amazing. So at the moment you with mum and dad? Yeah. Yeah. And yet are you sick and mum and dad, do you want your own independence? He goes away sometimes. So it's okay. It's just you and ma and then you girls go shopping, but more on spend. Spend some more money there. Yeah. Yeah. Doesn't really like shopping. They keep a grip on it. They'll say, Oh, hype site. So I call it. What are the next steps in your journey? What are you working on at the moment? Because you're always working on something. Hey. Yeah. To be able to walk without the Walker. Oh, like a long period of time. Yep. Yep. And what are the things that she's struggling with Brian in that respects as a balance or spatial awareness or con coordinating your face and things. Don't Speaker 4: (31:28) A balance really chase get, you know, like every day she gets better at it. You're like, we, we have been away to Tyro since Christmas or so before Christmas. And even I notice even though we're here all the time with it, even I know she can climb the stairs and stairs now with minimal assistance, whereas at Christmas it was, you know, you have to keep a class on I, but she can do it all by herself. Now just with my mind, Speaker 3: (32:00) Are you using functional neurology? That's something that I'd highly recommend you go out and start looking into if you haven't to Willy, which is using a, so doing things like with your eyes balancing, you know, different eye exercises that really helped me with non, with your facial awareness and who balance stuff. So if you, if you, are you doing that at all with, with PI? Speaker 4: (32:20) Yeah. maybe they're not that I'm aware of. Exactly. If you could save me that. Speaker 3: (32:26) Yeah, I'll send you a couple of videos. I'm in links to doctors who, who teach this online. I'd also recommend you go to a good car, Frank, cause it knows about functional neurology or I'm not sure if there's up in Oakland or not, but and just get things looked at it from that perspective because adjusting the bet can also help with I've got mum at the chiropractor at the moment, we're trying to straighten out. It's fine. Of course things are going a little bit skew with after four years of being, you know, leaned over on one side and that can help with neurological function as well. So it's just say people like it's really important to share these insights and information with each other cause we're still learning, we're still growing, we're moving forward. And each time you come, you take a step forward, you actually come up against a new obstacle. I've found a Braun, there's something that, some new place that you haven't thought about. A new, a new level, a new deal sort of thing. Speaker 4: (33:19) Yeah. You know, like the other thing that I think is important is as I'm assessing the notes that you know, the right to make a significant difference as well. I think Speaker 3: (33:33) The right food for our brain is really, really important. And having good high fats, good Omega threes, really important. I have a whole regime of different supplements that I also have mum on. And we also do something called epigenetic testing. And I got into this Brian, it looks because it looks at your gene genetic makeup and how they're expressing now and gives the exact right diet for that person's genes. So it'd be something that we Speaker 4: (34:02) Yeah, for sure. I like look at them. Speaker 3: (34:07) Yeah. Cause I think what, what, what the key takeaway from this guys is obviously hyperbarics really important. Second is resilience in fight in persistence and not giving up in certainly having the support of a wonderful family or friends or people that can help anyone going through a drama like this and being resilient and then also the right diet and taking a really multipronged approach. Not just relying on drugs, not relying on just physio. It's not enough. It's not enough. It's a part of the puzzle, but it's, it's not, it's not enough for brain injury, but there is a way back and there is quality of life. You know, Chloe, you're pretty happy lighting it nowadays that you, you always seem to be jetting around the place and having all travel. You love travel, you've got a wonderful family. You're moving again, you're walking in, you're going somewhere, you've got your job, sort of sit for the next couple of years. What do you get yourself back to? More independence and, but near as quality of life and nearest happiness. Fear and it sounds, yeah, it's an amazing story guys. Brian, are there any last words or closing any last words that you want to encourage people who might be going through hardships? It doesn't even need to be brain injury, but just hard times. Speaker 4: (35:23) Well, I, you know, I, my bag disappointment through or laser as a, a number of the professionals just don't get it. And you know, like a lot, probably more than 50% of the you know, they use psychologists if you like. Have said in front of Chloe, you'll never walk again. You've got unrealistic expectations to hit face. And some of them say, you know, you'll never have you know, never have a pattern in your life and you got any issue and you're going to get [inaudible] don't get used to it. That's, that's how it's going to be. The phone a lot. And I've got so angry and in front of people, I never quite lose it, but I felt like Speaker 3: (36:21) A few times and my big brother have lost it toe a few times. Speaker 4: (36:27) Yeah. And it's just stupid. They put themselves up as so called experts and they, yeah, I know nothing for those facts. We just kept them. You don't want to know anything about them. I've tried them in the door. That's it. We're not coming back. We keep looking and, and we've had some absolutely wonderful caregivers or professionals that are help Chi and, and an event like I, we keep changing providers cause he goes to speech therapists almost every two or three years until we find the right one. But they run out of ideas. They run out of experience and colleagues continue to improve. So therefore some of them you get to a stage where they've topped out, I don't know any more and can't take it to the next stage. Or the challenge is to find the next person who can take it to the next day. And we've been relentless at that nonsense and we look constantly for people that can help. And we just kept the negative ones there immediately. Non-Native might, I don't know. And I just really totally surprises me how how these people lie and I still operate and I just wonder how many people get discouraged by that and just accept it. We're, you know, we document, Speaker 3: (37:52) No, we don't. And, and, and we've, you know, like the thing is like, we're feisty fighters. We, we not people that give up and how many people go under the bus who don't have feisty daughters or fathers or people that will help them. I had times at the hospital where, like in front of my mum, I remember vividly, we had a, we were finally got into a physio program and of course she wasn't ICC like you guys. So we didn't get a lot of support. And I finally got her into a physio program after a year and we did this training with him, which was excellent. And he preceded, I could have done more in my, you know, when lunch break than they did. And at the end of the six weeks, they'd done all these tests with here and they'd talk to her like she was an idiot. Speaker 3: (38:35) And we were in this panel that we had to present the senior, that we were allowed to stay in the program. And we were taken into this room and I said to her, look, Isabel is below the level of the worst dementia patient we've seen. There is excellently no hope. She will never do anything again. We not going to continue in the program and this is in front of my mum. Right. And, and I just turned around to my mum and I said how does it make you feel mum? And she said, well, I was feeling quite empowered until I heard that, that I'm below the level of dementia patient now I'm absolutely depressed and I don't know what to think. And the mouths dropped open. They have never heard her speak a full sentence because that talked down to her, realized she had an intelligence via that they, they had ignored. And these are the professionals, the doctors, they send the fuzzier therapists and you know, I'm not saying that all like that from pig. God, they're not complete idiots. We told them to stop the program. Speaker 3: (39:42) I bet you've seen hates cause I've seen hates and in people who had told me, even, you know, good physios who would come to the end of their abilities, who told me you won't get any more rubbish. Yeah. And you can imagine when you've got a 78 year old how they're even more so, because they're like, she's 78. What do you want? You know, made it go, no, she's my mum and I'm going to fight and I wanted to live to 120, you know, then my attitude and I'm not, I'm not, I'm not happy with where we're at it, I'm very, I'm glad we're here but I want more and Callie wants more. We keep looking for the next layer of people that can help us and that's why we keep exchanging ideas and I've got a couple for Chloe to look into. So Speaker 4: (40:36) Yeah, I guess that that was really my point. I think just don't give up and when you get a divorce that you don't think is right, seek a second opinion or just go elsewhere and I just tell them out. They're not talking to our my niece has just qualified as a medical doctor and I said to her, she was here just over Christmas period. Said to her, what you know, what did they teach your bed? Hyperbaric oxygen treatment. And she said nothing. Nothing, absolutely nothing. Absolutely stupid as that I've been back works for almost, even though I dislocated my shoulder playing rugby years and years ago. And when they told me what I need a shoulder reconstruction thought and I was functioning okay. But I couldn't wash my hair with my left. Well wash it with my right. But so I put up with that for years and years and after that first 20 treatments, Speaker 3: (41:35) Yeah. Wow. What's flowing? No question. That there's no growth like crazy me. It does. We don't ask Dr. Scott share who was on this you know, earlier this, this podcast he said to me, if we can get three treatments, if anybody who's had a heart attack or stroke within a few days we can have the mortality. Right. And I see, why the hell is this not an every single ICU in the world. And you see, because there's no money to be made in it. He said that I'm a doctor, this is not from [inaudible] the company behind it, the clinical trials, they won't do anything cause you can't patient oxygen and they can't make money out of it. And unfortunately that is the general state of our health system. It's very pharmacological based and it's very surgery based. And while that brilliant surgery and the brilliant at those parts of the puzzle, they're not good when it comes to chronic health management and they're no good when it comes to a situation like this. And that's why, you know, I know this is controversial, unnoticeable piss some people off, but this is our experience and it needs to be shared because there's a hundred other people that will back up what we're saying a thousand other people. Yeah. Interesting enough. Was the next a customer in the door, was that an American lady? And we're talking about, she said, well, funnily enough, almost every new mall would you go on until you are in the States nowadays as a wellness clinic. Speaker 3: (43:33) There you go. Yeah, it's growing and, and, and the popping up. We'll have New Zealand. I opened the clinic here with a, what they call a mild hyperbaric facility with, so we can't afford the big ones with the big medical grade, but they are justice just about as good, not quite as good, but it just about as good, they don't have a hundred percent oxygen and these are popping up all over the country. So you guys, if you want to find out about it, this is not just for people with brain injuries. This is for people who want an anti aging. Good for you, for athletes. This is good for healing wounds. This is absolutely proven stuff. And there is clinical trials. I have a season. It is a powerful and by the same token, there's a hundred other Sierra pays or biohacking or whatever you want to call it, stuff out there that is worth looking into. Speaker 3: (44:21) We can't give recommendations for everything there is, but there's a hell of a lot that I've tried. And all combined together. Nope. Do the restaurant, do the risk assessment yourself. And if you think it's for you, go for it. And don't be told what you can and you can't do. And you know, just keep powering on clothing. Brian, you've been fantastic today. Thank you so much for sharing your story. It's really awesome. It's so important Chloe, that you get out there and you tell people this journey that you've been on, there's a reason why you've been through this. We've got to tune it into a positive, even though it's been health, you and your family. This is why the book for me is important to get it out there, to share these insights so that other people don't have to have it as hard as we did. Speaker 3: (45:11) And if we can help people then it's great. So if anybody wants to reach out to calling weaker, they find you guys your famous snare Chloe. Yeah, my Danny that drew runnings, my Facebook page, my journey back to running Facebook. So clubby Hogan on Facebook and I can find you the year under Chloe Hogan. That be right. Chloe is Hogan. Okay. Chloe, Ms. Hogan, what a complicated name you've got. Wow. That is very fancy. So fire was my granddad. Oh wow. That's a pretty cool name. So Chloe, Amy's Hogan, if anyone wants to reach out to Corey, I'm sure she'd love to hear from you. If anyone wants to reach out to me or to Brian, please let us know. You can email me and I can pass any messages on. If you've got any questions. Thank you very much guys for sharing your story. We've got to get it out there more. It's an absolutely amazing story and you and mum, Chloe are both rock stars, so thanks though. Thanks Lisa! Speaker 2: (46:20) We're pushing the limits this week. I hope that that was really interesting for you and you took some really strong takeaways from that interview with Brian and Chloe. It's been a, an amazing to watch her journey over the last few years parallel to my mums and some of the insights that we've both gained a really along the same path. So I hope you'll take heat of some of the notes that we talk. I just wanted to remind you to hop on over to our website. If you want to check out our programs. We've got three flagship programs. We've got our online run training Academy running hot. We you can learn everything you need to know about running with you are doing your first five K or 10 K or maybe you're gone for an a half marathon. Or if you're doing a hundredth hundredth miler, we would love to help you. Speaker 2: (47:04) We have a holistic run training system that is based around our five pillars. So these are your run training sessions, you mobility work, your strength work, your nutrition and your mindset and all those pieces of the puzzle. Really, really important. It's not just about putting one foot in front of the other and winging it and seeing how you go. Certainly not when once you start getting into the longer distances or once you start running sort of any injury issues. So please check that out. We also have mindset U, which is our mental toughness Academy. And this is all about developing a stronger mindset. You know, all the stuff you just heard about. And the interview with colleague, that sort of stuff. It's about resilience, it's about persistence. It's about overcoming that negative voice in your heads, those limiting beliefs that were programmed into you perhaps as a young person. Speaker 2: (47:53) All of that sort of good stuff. So cheek out mindset you're in. The third program that we have is our epigenetics testing program. Now this is just really next level. Now this is a program that's been put together by hundreds of scientists working from 15 different science disciplines to look specifically at your genes and how they are expressing right now. And so this is the next step in personalized health. Never before in the history of mankind. Have we ever had an insight into our bodies like we do now. And then information can help us really nail down our health problems, our optimizing our house, tuning the clock back on time and reaching high-performance. It give you information right from like having Google for your, for your own body basically. You know, it'll tell you exactly the right foods to eat, the right times of the day, your chronobiology all about the different times of the day, your hormones, when they're replacing what your dominant hormones are. Speaker 2: (48:54) It'll give you information on your mindset, how your mind works, which parts of your brain you use the most are just absolutely next level of information. So if you want to check out our epigenetics program, hop on over to my website, Lisa Thomas E. Dot com and hit the programs button and you'll see all three of our programs. I've also got our new book relentless coming out on the 11th of March, 2020 then this is a story of bringing my bump mum back from a mess of aneurysm. And you can preorder that book. Now, if you do preorder it, you'll get free access for the next three weeks only to mindset you. So you'll get your free X's to mindset you, you also get a discount on the book if you preorder it. The book does not ship until the 11th of March. But if you support me in getting this underway, I'm actually going to give you access to mindset. You now, that's a value of $275 and that program has been running for a few years and has helped countless people. So if you want to get this as a onetime only offer only to promote the book, please head on over to the shop at lisatamati.com Under the books button and you'll find relentless the preorders available there. So thanks very much for your time everyone, and we'll see you again next week. Speaker 1: (50:12) That's it this week for pushing the limits. Be sure to write, review, and share with your friends and head over and visit Lisa and her team at Lisatamati.com.

This week Lisa interviews one of her athletes from our Running Hot Coaching Tribe, Matt Scrafton. Matt joined Running Hot with the goal to run a 100km trail race at Taupo in New Zealand.  Previously he had successfully run a couple of 50km events and really wanted to push himself but as a Dad, husband and having a full on career he wanted to do this challenge without breaking himself.   Matt shares his triumphs and struggles on his road to 100km glory in this no holds barred honest and raw account of what it takes to run 100km when you have a full on life and you don't have the luxury of being a full time athlete or having all the talent of a Scott Jurek or Dean Karnazes. Many will relate and find inspiration in this story.  Matt describes himself as “An incurable dreamer. An unapologetic introvert. A Husband and father. Just a guy who loves life and running long distances. Since moving to New Zealand 14 years ago, Matt has swapped the rugby boots for endurance sport. He’s completed Coast to Coast, cycling round Taupo and and a few ultra races.”   You can follow Matt on instagram at https://www.instagram.com/mattscrafton/   We would like to thank our sponsors Running Hot - By Lisa Tamati & Neil Wagstaff If you want to run faster, longer and be stronger without burnout and injuries then check out and TRY our Running Club for FREE on a 7 day FREE TRIAL Complete holistic running programmes for distances from 5km to ultramarathon and for beginners to advanced runners.   All include Run training sessions, mobility workouts daily, strength workouts specific for runners, nutrition guidance and mindset help Plus injury prevention series, foundational plans, running drill series and a huge library of videos, articles, podcasts, clean eating recipes and more.   www.runninghotcoaching.com/info and don't forget to subscribe to our youtube channel at Lisa's Youtube channel  www.yotube.com/user/lisatamat and come visit us on our facebook group   www.facebook.com/groups/lisatamati Epigenetics Testing Program by Lisa Tamati & Neil Wagstaff. Wouldn’t it be great if your body came with a user manual? Which foods should you eat, and which ones should you avoid? When, and how often should you be eating? What type of exercise does your body respond best to, and when is it best to exercise? These are just some of the questions you’ll uncover the answers to in the Epigenetics Testing Program along with many others. There’s a good reason why epigenetics is being hailed as the “future of personalised health”, as it unlocks the user manual you’ll wish you’d been born with! No more guess work. The program, developed by an international team of independent doctors, researchers, and technology programmers for over 15 years, uses a powerful epigenetics analysis platform informed by 100% evidenced-based medical research. The platform uses over 500 algorithms and 10,000 data points per user, to analyse body measurement and lifestyle stress data, that can all be captured from the comfort of your own home Find out more about our  Epigenetics Program and how it can change your life and help you reach optimal health, happiness and potential at: https://runninghotcoaching.com/epigenetics You can find all our programs, courses, live seminars and more at www.lisatamati.com    Transcript of interview: Speaker 1: (00:01) Welcome to pushing the limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential with your host, Lisa Tamati brought to you by LisaTamati.com. Speaker 2: (00:14) Well, hi everybody. Lisa Tamati here at pushing the limits. Fantastic to have you back again. I really appreciate your naughty checking in on the show every week. Today. We've got a little something special for you. I've got actually one of our athletes it running hot coaching has agreed to come on and share his story. So it's a little bit of a debrief, a little bit of a coaching call. Hopefully you guys will pick up some gems of wisdom. We're gonna, she's gonna. She has insights and the journey that he went all to get to a hundred K, which was his ultimate race recently. So welcome to the show Matt Scrafton how are you? Morning, I'm good. How are you? Very, very good. So I met his sitting in Wellington. You got to sunny day down there. Speaker 3: (00:56) Yeah, it's beautiful and it's, there's no wind for once. So yeah, really nice. Speaker 2: (01:01) That's unusual. So I met let's step back at the beginning. So tell us a little bit about yourself, where you come from and then we'll get into the running side of it. Speaker 3: (01:13) Alrighty, Um so I'm British. And I've be, I moved to New Zealand in 2005 where I met my now wife. So I grew up in, in the UK and political Brighton by the sea. And we live in the mighty Waikato in Cambridge and we've been all over the place. You know, Alton, Wellington, Melbourne, but Cambridge is home and some my wife and I have a baby girl, Darcy's four, and we have a crazy eight months old poodle, Daisy. So life is pretty full. But yeah, no, I've been, I'm, I found running probably about six or seven years ago. I've been doing endurance sports or Madi sports, probably longer. But as time went on, it got harder to balance all three disciplines. And then I decided that I really wanted to do something that had an endurance element to it and trail running or running was the easiest, you know, put on your shoes, get out the door and go. Speaker 3: (02:07) So yeah, so I got into sort of trail running proper about six or seven years ago and set myself the goal as I kind of do with, with life of, of running a 50. And and we were living in Melbourne at the time and the North face 50 was a, an annual event in may of each year around the blue mountains. It's just outside of Sydney. Gorgeous rice. Yeah. And so I spent probably about a year building up for that with a few feeder events. But the big goal of running the 50 yeah. And did that eight hours, 39. And that was really tough. It was quite a hard race. But yeah, I was surprised that what I now understand to be that mental state that you there are so important to an athlete. That went, that race went really well mentally for me. Speaker 3: (03:02) So I thought, yep, this is definitely not a one off. So a couple of months later, Darcy arrived and, and life changed. So took a while. Yeah. Yeah. It took a while to find that, that rhythm. We moved back to New Zealand and I then locked in the terror wearer this year, actually, 2019 and so spent it about, you know, another year building up for that. But I was kind of, yeah, so doing the, I'm doing the 50, I did have aspirations to run further, but my wife said, no, no, get another 50 under your belt before you, before you go further. You know, that it definitely wasn't a one off. So yeah, spent about a year building up for the 50 and did that in I think it's February of this year. So came home in about seven hours and yeah, it was just a really hot day. Speaker 3: (03:55) And I thought there's no way I'm running and as our ultra in the middle of summer, it's just crazy times. Which probably discounts the marathon disabler but there we go. But the it was, it was pretty cool race fantastic atmosphere and some really great support crew and aid station folk that rock up and make it a really memorable day. And then I woke up, I got home, woke up the next day and I had this, this kind of overwhelming feeling that it wasn't, you know, it wasn't a sense of mission accomplished. I had done that, but there was more. And I didn't quite know what it looked like. So before everyone else got up, I was looking online for big events or things to do, you know, huge running goals to chase and telco was on in October, so it was always, Speaker 2: (04:45) Let's back up a little bit. So you ran 50 Ks, paid him some seven hours or something and the tank wasn't in thi the next day. Like most people get to the finish line on any race and go, never again. Well that's it. Unless a very experienced one or something, they know that that's, that's going to be temporary. But you in the very next day started looking online. Usually it takes at least five days. Speaker 3: (05:11) Yeah, no, I think I'm really like goal-orientated I I think I, you know, you, we do what we do during the hours of nine to five to make ends meet and pay the bills, et cetera. But running is I've come to learn that it's a, my thing, it gives me that time and space. And it's, you have a, there's a fantastic mental feeling that goes with running. And if you marry that for me with huge, big, hairy audacious goals it gives me that balance. And if I don't have that big hairy audacious goal on the horizon or near, then I start, I start to struggle. Yeah. And my life is a bit out of balance. So I think it was physically I was, I was a bit poked, you know, my legs hurt and you know, I had a few tight muscle groups. Speaker 3: (06:09) But there was definitely a sense of there's more in the tank. And for me it was a case of you've got this base, you've legs, you've come through, okay, yeah, they're gonna hurt, but whose legs wouldn't after running 50 a day and let's use that base as a launching pad for the next big hairy audacious goal. And the counsel or guidance from my, from my wife was find a 70 or 80 K wise woman. This lady, she is, yeah, very, very wise. She's my CEO, my CFO and everything else. But to ignore that, no, she's a lovely lady. See no, I, I did ignore it and as I tend to do with some guidance and I thought, no, let's go a hundred now. Let's lock it in because there was nothing else on the horizon that was closer and telcos on our doorstep and yeah, it was on. Yeah. Speaker 2: (07:05) Well, so Topo 100 K for people who, let's see, from overseas. So taco is universal part of the country in the North Island of New Zealand, and I have a hundred K of the year, which is, can be a muddy, muddy, and hilly fee. So you signed up for that already straight after, straight out of the gate after Tyler WEDA. And what happened then? Speaker 3: (07:28) Literally I text my brother in law and said, what are you doing on the 12th of October? I have a deal for you. And I, then you came back and said, yep, nothing. What have you got in mind? I said, Oh, would you like to be my support crew for 'em a hundred K? It's like, are you sure? It's crazy idea, but let's do it. When Shelly and Darcy woke up, I kinda very casually dropped in conversation and yeah, it, you know, I gave myself a good few weeks to recover. Possibly from what I've learned from Neil subsequent after the a hundred possibly digging it myself long enough to recover which then is how I, I met you Lisa. So yeah, so I started training and, and literally followed the same sort of process and build up that I'd been doing for the 50, but obviously slightly longer distances for the a hundred. And I think it was around may or June of this year that I started to realize that what had got me through the 50 wasn't necessarily gonna get me through the a hundred. And that's when I, yeah, that's when the world changed. Speaker 2: (08:35) And that's when you found us. Speaker 3: (08:37) Yeah. So I was looking for not only coaching but a community that I could connect with. Cause I think when we run, we do a lot of this stuff in isolation. And I think I was looking for more than just a frequent, frequent contact the coach. I wanted to understand how everyone else was doing the trials and tribulations irrespective of distance and just share that knowledge. And yeah, I did my research and I think you and I had a phone call and yeah, gave it a go and yeah. Jumped on board Speaker 2: (09:11) And yeah, so we were, we were start the heavy onboard and we've now got this 100 K goal. And you said, I think it's what's important is a lot of people stand out on their own and they, they, they do fine for a little while. And then you start to either run into injuries or you go weeks bigger or you start to have troubles in some way, shape or form. I begin a bit burned out, maybe lose your motivation. And that is some people often come to us and say, Oh, I need a bit of structure. And it's an, it's not like probably 90% of people who join us have hit the wall in some way or hit a big, big, big scary goal that they know they need to take a little bit more seriously. So it's one or the other. Or they're just starting out that that's another thing and they want some really good guidance and structure. So what was the main difference like when you came to running hot coaching and jumped into our planes, what was the major difference that you found campaign to say and screeching off the internet? Speaker 3: (10:17) Yeah. So I think the catalyst for looking beyond our training in isolation on my own was I wanted a more rounded approach to the a hundred. I realized that I wasn't spending enough time on core strength for example. And I also knew that my own knowledge and experience wasn't enough and that there were people out there who had years of experience and I'd be daft not to tap into that. So recognizing that I had my own limitations. So from a knowledge perspective and actually I, the biggest thing for me is that I was starting to get a sense that I wasn't approaching my long runs fresh. Yup. So I was going into the weekend quite fatigued and I wanted a more, I wanted to know if there was a way to balance training for a hundred so that you didn't feel you know, shot all the time and fatigued. Speaker 3: (11:11) So that was the catalyst. And and then the conversation with yourself and then actually working with Neil, it's on pick the a hundred K plan. I was like, wow, the longest run in the week, mid week is actually shorter than my current longest midweek run. So automatically the, I'm going to start feeling a little bit fresher. Yeah. And then I started getting actually the first core strength session I did, I probably couldn't walk proper for about a day or two. I remember doing the lunges and I was like, Oh wow, I'm going to, yeah, this is, there's a reason why I'm doing this. Speaker 2: (11:46) Oh, that's fine. So, and like [inaudible] that is a key thing. Like you don't know what, you don't sometimes how weak you've gotten to, like when you run, it's a catabolic exercise. So it starts at eight, you eat away at your muscles. And so if you're not counteracting that with strength training, with a, also with your mobility and for, for different reasons then over time you're going to get weaker and more flacid than the, in the, in the core for example, you'll have strong leaks, but that's what, you know, run isn't going to have strong links obviously, but the rest of you will, will suffer from. And that's when things can come unstuck as well, especially if you're not 20 anymore, you know, you need to start thinking about muscle max loss, which is, which we sort of lose around 200 grams a year after the age of 40 on average. So let's say they say so we want to be counteracting that as well as the fact that you are in a catabolic sport that is actually eating away at you and you want to be able to maintain. So, okay. You started into the strength program is think, well this is, this is different. Yeah. And how, how, how was it for you when the mileage, like a lot of people think, okay, I've gone from 50 to a hundred, I have to double the mileage. Doesn't work, does it? Speaker 3: (13:00) Absolutely not. No. So the a hundred, the leap from 50 to a hundred was for me, surprisingly manageable. I'm working in within the a hundred K plan that you guys gave me. So midweek run automatically shorter. So there's some gains there. And actually the, the longest run was actually comparable to my 50 K. Yeah. And I think we added maybe another hour onto it just because I was questioning, well, if I'm going to take 15 or 14 hours, then you know, do I need to run a little bit longer than what I've been doing? 50. And then it was like, you know, if you want to run a little bit longer, that's okay. But there isn't a one size fits all. You've got to just make it work for you. Speaker 2: (13:42) Yeah. Yup. And this is a, the thing that's like, I've said to people sometimes when they think, how the hell am I going to double that? And, and I'm not actually doubling the distance and I say to them like, when I'm running or set of 200 K race or two 50K race, I don't double it again, because you can't double it. You can't keep doubling that. You're training distance to suit your and with, we've come from, you know, most people have come from maybe a marathon,udistance training. We are, you know, from half marathon, two marathon, you steeping up your mileage a lot more and your long run does get a lot bigger and you're doing sort of three quarters, you know, 32, 33 K run as your longer time before Marisol. So people extrapolate that and think that that's what happens when you're doing a 200. Okay. And it isn't, you can't, you cannot physically recover from training intents on this. You kept choking or somewhat [inaudible]. Speaker 2: (14:39) But generally you can't recover. And that's where the wheels start to come off. People if they start to try to do this high mileage, so we're not high mileage coaches. And we get a lot of people coming to us who've come from high mileage coaches and that approach would work at the beginning and it will work when you're younger. When you've got kids in careers and you're getting a little bit older, they had approached that to unravel. If you're a lady, you can often start getting hormone problems as well. And so both sixes adrenal exhaustion is on the horizon too. So those are things that we always very aware of and you're trying to keep you from tipping over there. It's a very fine line to walk sometimes. Okay. So walk us through the next part of the process. Speaker 3: (15:23) So I think we're just on that around the longest run. So I training was going really well. You know, mobilization work, strength work, and then I got through what I turned my apex weekend, the longest run weekend. Yep. And I run it as per the schedule where I may be through one half an hour for mental confidence and yeah, it's about 43 K I think in total. Five and a half hours in the Hills. Yeah. And then that the following week is when it all came crashing down, fell off. The wheels did come off big time. Yeah. Yeah. I, I'm Speaker 2: (16:03) You run into an injury problem. Speaker 3: (16:05) I did. I had basically an absolute awful pain sensation in my left ankle tendonitis. They turned out and that, yeah, that happened literally on the Wednesday after my long run. I could feel it. You know, in the sort of the Tuesday morning and then I went for another run on the Wednesday, which I shouldn't have done. And it was hurting like never, like no other pain I'd had before. So I knew something wasn't quite right. And managed to get to see my awesome physio in Cambridge and and she said, yeah, you've got some, some tendonitis. And we basically worked up a plan where I would, and I, I think at that point, if I don't take it back a step, there was a day, I think it was a Thursday where I was sitting in my office in Cambridge and I was literally in tears because I thought, how am I, how am I going to get to the start line, let alone the finish line and put all this effort in. And you know, I spoke about the balance or the need to have balance in professional life and personal life. Suddenly I could see the Seesaw completely, you know, mounted as broken for overseas friends. And I I was just learning bits because I thought, I can't run. How the, what am I going to do? I can't walk this thing. So I think I flipped you guys a note and said, how do I typo? Speaker 2: (17:35) You were in immediately black spice and you, you reached out and I could tell from the, you know, you asking about specifically about the, the injury I think, which was part of the same, but the what, what, where I jumped in was more the, the meaningful side of it because you were, you were taking the deep dive. So when you've put your heart and soul into something massive and then it starts to unravel and then you're thinking you're fearing not being, because it's not along to the race now that you're not going to get there. And every decision that you're missing in this is very, you know, normal things that though it still starts crashing down around your ears. So how did they, so I, I jumped on a call with you and we started to work through some of the, the mental stuff. How did that help you? Speaker 3: (18:18) Yeah, it was, it was really interesting cause I, I went straight to the physical side. So how do I taper? How do I still do these sessions? You know, I've got an internal session tomorrow. How do I run that with an ankle that I can't run them? And you're like, no, no, no, no, no. Take a step back here. This is you, you, I think you actually said you've got this your legs have got all the miles they need to do to do the a hundred is now about the upstairs. How do you mentally stay, stay in the fight to get yourself to the start line and through the race. And I was, I was actually quite taken aback about that because I thought, well, I'm missing all these sessions or I'm going to be missing all these sessions. Speaker 3: (18:59) And I'm generally fairly confident person, but I guess susceptible to blows from life as, as anyone is. Yeah. And I couldn't, I wasn't listening to you, I think at first. And then you followed up in an email and it, I actually, it took me three or four attempts to reread what you'd written. And then we communicated over the next 48 hours. And you said over the weekend, I want you to read a book if you can. And the book is the biology of belief. Yeah. Bruce Lipton. Yeah. And it was a little too it took me way beyond my, my scoring. Yeah. School level science around biology, but it was the last section that really knitted it all together, which is about how your perception and beliefs influence your physiology or can influence your physiology. And I think that's when the penny dropped for me that this is all about the mind going into these next three and a half weeks. Speaker 2: (20:06) Yup. And that's the key point because the situations happen, the injuries happen. Speaker 3: (20:12) Yup. Speaker 2: (20:13) What we've got, we can, we can, the, the, the, the thing that you're going to do wrong is to keep training over that injury and to try and fight through it when you've got a rise at the other rains. So the panic is that I'm not going to be fit enough when the reality is if you, if you get through 70, 80% of your total training malls, you're going to be fine. And I, and as a coach, you don't, you, you trying to get your people, I'm a bit more than that, but if something happens, you, you will get there. The best race I've ever had in my life, one of the most amazing races put that way, let have, was that one that I did in the Himalaya's, which I shared with you, that 222 K rice. So of the two highest mountain passes and in the world mudroom bubble passes and I ripped the ligaments off my league team weeks out from the rice. Speaker 2: (21:01) I couldn't run for seven weeks and I had a hypoxic brain concussion from doing altitude training. So I didn't have enough oxygen in my body. So of course all these evictions and so on. Some of the listeners would have heard this story, but eh, when I, and I was either I'm going to pull out or I'm going to carry on. And I decided I'm carrying on because I'm put in so much. If it as you know, the effort that goes into training for something like this, we need alone the sponsorship, the foam, the documentary that, you know, the whole works just made that I couldn't just pull out. And so I had to try and face it with only a couple of weeks training at the end of that seven week. So not being able to train on my foot. So I did cross train, I didn't want to cook with my body and I spent the rest of that time on my mindset. Speaker 2: (21:44) And when I got to the stat line, my body was actually in better shape than if I'd smashed it right till the end because I'd actually given my, my body hadn't had a recipe years putting it, you know, mildly. And so this actually was the best thing that could've happened and it was fit. And I did the 222K race mind do like a really hard, tough, long at altitude, extremely dangerous race and, and killed it, you know, was, was briefly had, I've got documentary if anyone was walked,uI'm slightly simplifying it, but the point was you didn't need to do every one of those training sessions that you think you need to do. And when you don't have the choice, it's either you change your mindset to the whole thing and you stay on board with it and you better, or you give up and you pull out or you keep trying and you and yourself even more, and then you might be out for six months, you know? Speaker 3: (22:37) Yeah. And I think the, the biggest thing as human beings, we often always easy to do, is to, is to not learn from the mistakes as we go through life. You know, to the definition of madness is to repeat the same action and keep expecting the same or different outcome. Okay. And, yeah. So, so I think you know, when I spoke to you in that scenario that you described around that, that race, you said to me, the one thing you did do was you asked your support crew and those around you on that day or leading up to the event and through it to be 100% positive that you didn't want any negativity around you. So when I was going through this over that weekend I said to my wife, you know, do I pull out? She said, well, you can't because you, there's no point. Speaker 3: (23:20) You missed the withdrawal date. Yup. No, you might as well just take each day as it comes, see where you are. We're going to go down, everyone's booked in to come down and stay, et cetera. So that's just do it and just see what happens. My wife is a Kiwi. She's her world view is inherently positive. I'm, I'm British and naturally cynical about most things in life. So glass half full glass half, we kind of marry each other out. But yeah, so, so I I got through that weekend and I jumped in the pool and on the bike and I was having physio, physio sessions and I wasn't running and it was a really weird sensation. Weight in the sense I felt like I was getting behind. So that's when I, little things like, you know, I did that accountability mirror exercise where I took post-its and wrote down in a motivational statements or words on a mirror and I took a wee picture and I know it's a silly thing I did just to hold myself accountable going through the next three and a half weeks to do towel pose. Speaker 2: (24:28) And that is not silly. That is really, really good. Anything, any positivity that you can surround yourself with is, is the mental game, is everything in ultra? Speaker 3: (24:37) Oh, it is totally. And this is the biggest, you know, you do these events in life and I've, the one thing I've learnt this time round is that it is all mental. It is a hundred. I mean you're also, you're palsy, you know, needs to be conditioned. [inaudible] Speaker 2: (24:52) Healthy and you need my foot. But the rest is in your head. And Oh man, I'll say next weights, you know, finish races that they shouldn't have been running cause they went far enough to do it, but mentally they were strong enough to get through it. We don't recommend doing that because you're going to scroll your body in the long run, but it is about this up here. How much, how much pain can you suffer, how much can you overcome, how much, what's your why and how big is that? Why and how strong is that? Why you really, really want this? And then you find ways around obstacles. And, and I think having seen what I've seen in other athletes, I've seen people with incredibly bad injuries survive races. I've seen you know, people who are blind run across the Sahara. And I've seen this before. People with, with one leg run across your belly. And a whole bunch of people who carry kids who had cerebral palsy is to give them a cross them a mouth on the Saturdays, you know incredible stories. People who really believed in saving the rhinoceroses and addresses the rhinoceros the entire time across the Sahara. You know, absolutely crazy things that physically shouldn't be now able to do. But they did. Speaker 3: (26:05) But because of their why and their purpose, they did. Yeah, absolutely. Speaker 2: (26:08) In a very, very strong why. And there has to be the, the ultimate. OK. So you, you started to tune your mindset around, so this positivity and surrounding yourself with positive people and your wife's telling you, you could, you know, you got this, we started, we just starting and that is the thing. Get to the stat line, start, see what happens. Speaker 3: (26:24) Yeah. And I think the biggest thing they have along the way, I was training with a guy it lives in Oakland and we've done a few training runs together and I sent him a text set, ah, you know, with start together, but we'll be finishing separately. I don't know if I'm going to finish in my current state. And he phoned me and he, he's a really happy go lucky guy, positive outlook. He said, no, no, we will walk this out together if we have to. And I thought, wow, okay. That's, that's pretty cool. So yeah. Speaker 2: (26:58) Oh yeah. This guy gives us his name. Give them a shout out. Speaker 3: (27:01) Johnny. Johnny, Denise. Yeah. Nice. Good guy. So yeah, so Johnny and I were, we ended up training separately of those last couple of weeks. And I was trying not to look at Strava and you know, get envy about long runs that he was putting in. And I was in the poll in my Emma Speedos. It wasn't good. But anyway yeah, no, so sorry, go on. Yeah, it worked. It worked. Yeah. So we got through that through those last few weeks. I'm in the pool and on the bike and having some fun on the mountain bike. And actually it was really nice just to get out in the Hills and just turn around. And then I remembered actually coming down one single track in, in Cambridge that I was actually doing a race the following weekend, so I should probably take it easy and not go too fast in case it came off. But yeah, no. So I, I started just to test the run walk literally the Monday before the race on the Saturday and that was the first time I'd got back on my feet and it was a really tentative run walk. And then I did another one the next day. And then the final one I think was on the Wednesday and no reactions from the ankle. So I thought, well, yeah, big, big mental hurdle cleared. You know, we're locked in to do this and we're going to do it. And yeah. Speaker 2: (28:18) And that's pretty like, it's pretty ballsy to be fair. You know, like it is hard when you're facing a hundred K and you haven't been able to try and fill the last few weeks and you're in the last phone a week, people before the race and you're like, can I even walk, run, walk, run in a couple of days you can change it. We'll be trying this out. And you're standing on the start line and said, and the morning it a hundred K, you know, it takes a lot of mental strength. So well done. Thank you Chuck it all in. Speaker 3: (28:44) No, definitely not. And I think at that point even I think my physio had said to me you are doing this, you can do this. And that you will break, you will not break anything in your ankle if you do this. And it hurts. It's just, it's not just ligaments, tendons, just tendons and they will recover. And I think that hearing that actually, I was like, okay, so if my body hurts, it's going to have to live with it and my mind is going to tell it. And that was the process I was going through. I think I spoke to you in the buildup and you said to me that this could be the body's way of trying to tell your mind that this isn't a great thing to do. Let's just sit back and watch some Netflix on the Saturday. Speaker 2: (29:20) Yes. Let's dive into that for a sec. The, in my experience in nearly every big race that I've done and the week before or two weeks before, something goes wrong on my body. Like I get sick, I'll get a cold, I get the flu, I get something, some, some single play out. And I, and I S I think it's the subconscious we aiming already actually body because it knows that you've got this big race coming up and it's trying to stop you. We'll throw everything at you. Just stop you. Speaker 3: (29:50) Yep. And that book I mentioned earlier yeah, a lot of it was about using your conscious mind, so not drifting off into unconscious thinking, focusing on the now using your conscious mind. And there's a lot more power in, in, in potential, in the using your conscious mind rather than the subconscious mind. So if you play it forward, then my subconscious was trying to tell me not to do the race because it's going to be tough. It's going to hurt. But my conscious mind was going, no, you've got this, you can do this. It's going to hurt, but it's gonna be fine. Yeah, yeah. We are doing this. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So we got through that last week and you're headed off to Topo and it was just a really interesting segue the night before Johnny and I, we've got a big house in our families came down and my, my mother and father who I love them to bits and my father in law was chatting away with Johnny who was really laid back and Johnny was having a, just the odd beer, one beer before the race. Speaker 3: (30:55) And I'm quite serious about my prep. I was not talking to anyone. I was going through my mental checklist and all that stuff. And my father in law said to me, man, why aren't you more like Johnny lay back and relax? I was just like, nah, we're all different. You know, everyone's got a little different around different ways of preparing. So yeah. So there's nothing wrong. Speaker 2: (31:17) And by the way, cause I mean, I talked to me the night before you know, I'm in the zone, you're in the zone and, but there are people who are just totally chilled out and whatever happens happens when that, the different personality types, unless I wasn't really be confused because everyone has their own way of preparing for such a battle because it is going into Epic bed already. Speaker 3: (31:37) Yeah. I think physically I'd appreciated the difference prior to this race around ultras and running and athletes, you know, we all come from different shapes and walks of life, but mentally as well, I was seeing some really interesting sides of people and athletes. So yeah. So yeah, John and I were up the next day about I think four o'clock got to the start line half five. It was absolutely freezing and telco. And I actually, I've never done this before, but I fell asleep again in the car on the way to the style line is about a 40 minute journey. But for me it was a sign of just how relaxed I was and whatever was going to want to fold was going to one fold, but it was going to do so in a way that was going to have a positive outcome. I was, I was quite relaxed about it. Which was really bizarre. So Speaker 2: (32:27) Thanks. Turn around to the T is three weeks before and the Speaker 3: (32:31) Oh, chalk and cheese. Yeah. Chalk and cheese. Yeah. I yeah, so there's, so we got going and Johnny had forgotten his headlight as usual, so I let us out and I said to John, look, we're going to run, run what I call fifteens, which is you run 10 minutes and maybe walk for five minutes. And I think I said to Johnny that it's going to be the pattern for me throughout the race. And he was like, yep, sweet. I'll run with you would walk this together. You just set the pace you, you'd be mr timekeeper. And we go so we we started off and are we running really comfortably? I think we ran the first 20 miles you know, I don't know, roundabout, just under four hours or something. Yeah. and at one point we were, Johnny was leading in and we were running up the Hill, then we were running down a Hill and he said, Oh, I probably ran that a bit hard. Speaker 3: (33:21) How's that? Yep. So but we were trying not to get too excited and carried away with ourselves. So to got to that first checkpoint, all good. And then I think it, it started to hit home around the, you know, you get into the race and we were running this sort of 15 thing where you run 10 and walk five. And I had this little checklist in my head where I'd come up with four things to think about on a rotation deliberately so that I could focus on the now using my conscious mind. Does that make sense? Yup. Yup. Yeah. So I, I'd ran through this little cycle where I'd go you know, what's my effort? Am I running comfortably? Am I running too fast or too slow check. My nutrition you know, have I eaten in the last half an hour? Have I taken some water in fuel? Speaker 2: (34:11) It's called association. I call that association where you're associating, you're actually checking in with your body. Yeah. And then another strategy, which is just association, when you're in pain that you're actually go off and do your heavy place and might be visualizing, may swimming with whales or something like that, that I'm in somewhere else or I'm renovating my house or I'm doing something like that and I'm taking my mind somewhere else. So these two strategies are really, really good to open to your practice. Speaker 3: (34:37) So now I know that I was doing the disassociation thing around the ADK Mark, but the yeah, so I was, and the other thing I deliberately, I was checking, you know, am I in touch with my environment? Can I feel with my feet and in whatever, my body, the physical environment, just to make sure that I was using my conscious mind. And I would go through this little checklist again, every 20 minutes or so. And so we got through the first 20 miles, it felt quite, quite quickly. And we hit the farm lands, which is a really monotonous physical environment, more walking or hiking than it is running. And it's not fun. It's not inspiring. But we got through that, hit the first major aid station, I think it was around the 50 K Mark. And I said to Johnny I'm now running into territory unknown territory from a distance perspective, even though I've technically run longer time on feet, this is going to be your ground. Yeah. so they'll talk about the different approaches. Johnny and I Johnny got to that big ice station and he had a white bike fritter. And I was like, no, I cannot stand that stuff. Speaker 3: (35:53) So yeah, so I, as, as we left the ice station, my wife said, how you feeling? And I said, honey, I'm really suffering. She said, well, you're halfway. This is all upstairs now. I see the neck see you at 75 K or whatever it was. I was like, Holy moly. So here we go. I'm sorry. It literally felt like I was stepping off an area called comfort and known into the unknown and uncomfortable, and this is going to hurt. It's gonna hurt. And this is where growth happens. Yeah. Yeah. So and we were running together, but we were always about, I don't know, three or four meters apart just because that's how you find yourself. And I think I got to about 65 K in Kinlock or something like that. And I said, I was crying behind my glasses, my sunglasses, because I was going through this dark patch where I was like, if I stop, I'm going to stop and I'm going to let all these people down and I will have this sense of underachievement pressure, yeah. Speaker 3: (36:59) For hanging around my neck. And as we approached, or one of the mini stations, I said to Johnny, Oh, you run on now, I'm I'm close to DNS thing. I'm gonna work through this. He said, no, no, no. We are, we're going to walk. We start if we have to together. Wow. He's doing. Yeah, he is. He's a really good dude. So so then our run at that point became a shuffle and you know, you're tired, you're physically tired. You can't run at that same pace. So we're still running, but it was just a, a shuffle and yeah, Johnny dragged us into the into the Kinlock aid station where we picked up our pacer. And my wife's friend who's training for coast Hannah, so she she signed up to be a pacer and yeah, my my wife took a video. Speaker 3: (37:48) She she asked me a question and she was videoing the response at the, at the 74 K line and a station, sorry. And she said, how do you feel? And I said explicative tired. And she said, Oh do you want to do a another hundred or on 160 after this? And there were a few more expletives that followed. And she she's kept the video and I've, it's a nice reminder, but so then we, yeah, we Johnny had another white bite fritter and I was just like, my God, he's going to suffer in a minute. And yeah, so we hit the Hill behind Kinloch and off we went. And that's, I think when the disassociation came in for me, cause my, my body was really hurt and my feet were really broken, like listers, toenails, just feet were sliding all over the place in my shoes. And it got through Kinlock with a reduced shuffle. And then I think we popped out around the 90 K Mark and into the, off the Hill. And I think that's when I th I finally felt that I was going to do this or sort of finish it. Yeah. Speaker 2: (38:58) That's a good feeling when you think, yeah, I've got this now. Like, Speaker 3: (39:01) Yeah. I mean I think we are our pacer was really good. She, you know, was checking in and if you're pacing someone that you've, you, you know, haven't done that sort of distance with, it's you've got to find your rhythm. And when we got to that last day station, I think, you know, eight K to go or whatever it was that's when we all thought, yeah, this is this, we're on the home stretch here. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And across the finish line and yeah, happy days Speaker 2: (39:30) Come back to like be like you've been in the, in the hurt locker for a good city. K so 25 Ks or something, which is an awful long time by the way. And I always say to people, the rice doesn't really step from Sydney. [inaudible] Usually that's when you know, when you pace yourself, right, with you hydrated, right. Whether your nutrition was right up until that point. And there's always going to be a time in those big long races and that can laugh for hours when you're absolutely miserable and you just want to die every second and give out. And if you can get through that, sometimes what happens is very often as you come into another space where suddenly it's all good again, you don't know how or why, but you, Bonnie sort of comes back. Did you experience that? Speaker 3: (40:09) Yeah, I think so. I took the, I spoke about in that 60 K Mark, you know, where I was close to DNF thing and you know, when Johnny said to me no, we're going to walk this out if we have to. So let's just keep going. I think what I now understand a little bit more about, I was going through a battle with my body and mind and what my body was going. Now let's just stop, you know, there's an aid station, there should, it can come pick you up. We'd go home and my mind was like, no, no, you were going to do this. And it was, it was like there's a little war going on between the two. Totally. Yeah. And Speaker 2: (40:39) Welcome to the, I enjoy the devil, the lion and the snake. Yeah. Louder. And it gets more and more frantic up there. Right. Speaker 3: (40:46) And I, I'd, I'd heard about it from, from you and others around in that war, your, your mind is telling your body, no, we're going to do this. So just shut up and just live with the pain. And that pain that I was experiencing physically actually reached a point and it didn't go any further. It just settled, it dissipated. And and then I got into a happy, happy place where I thought, yeah, I've got a shuffle going on. I'm not gonna run this full bore, full bore. I can't, but I'm moving forward and I'm getting closer to the next stage station and we're going to pick up HANA, you know, 74K and then we're going to do the same from there, up and over. Kinlock. Uand even with my, you know, like going through that,uI found a way to keep moving. Speaker 3: (41:39) It was almost as if the blisters, they were just blisters, they were going to go away. Toddlers grow back. And that's how I kind of quickly processed it. But it was just keep, even if you have to walk up the Hill, walk up the Hill, yeah, it's fine. Cool. so yeah, we got to, you know, from the 63 to Kinlock, which is a 74 and I think I mentally was getting into happy site. You know, like I, my body had quiet and down. The pain had kind of reached a point but hadn't got worse. And mentally I was I was over, you know, picking up the pace of 74 was a significant milestone. And we were, I think I could see the end you know, it was, we were close and it was just a case of getting through it. Yeah. And I was, I was still trying to bring myself back to the now going through my little checklist I mentioned earlier. And it was a way of just kind of putting into a little box the different pains or feelings I was experiencing. Discomfort around my feet, discomfort around my legs, you know, it got worse or sorry I've got bad, but it wasn't gonna get any worse. Speaker 2: (42:58) It's quite funny on that point. That yeah, when the body starts to scream at you, it's a bit like when it does pre-race, you know, when it throws it, you know, a sickness that you at the cold or some something that or try and stop you doing it and also does it arise. We are getting to the point where you like, the pain is so bad. You're thinking, how the hell am I going to carry on? And then when you do persevere, once again, the brain seems to go, Oh well she's not stopping. We've got to keep going. So I better stop putting those signals out. I don't know how it works. And I'd be interesting to see if other athletes have experienced the same thing, but it doesn't actually get any worse than bad. It's already bad, but keep getting worse. Speaker 3: (43:40) Yeah. And you know, it's, I don't know whether it was a combination of you know, mental fortitude or whatever word you wanna use or we'd reached a significant milestone. So getting up and over Kinlock Hill was huge cause it in 90 K there's two little eight stations and hitting the eight, the ice station at 90 K, as soon as you turn the corner off the ice station, it was like a wall of noise from the finish area had made its way up to up. You could hear it. And it was like, wow, we are so close. So any, it was like another wave just picked you up and was going to carry you down this, this fricking mountain. And you know, you could just, where that point, we were kind of walking shuffling and it was in the dark and it was quite wet. Speaker 3: (44:30) So you'd probably didn't have any other choice to be honest. And it was just, you know, you could feel the end. So we just made our way down the mountain. And we were joking amongst the three of us, you know, pace from Johnny about, you know, what we're going to have to, we was our favorite post race mill, just really silly crabs that was just getting us through the finish to the finish. And yeah, so yeah, we, we, we hit that last cause like a sty that you've got to climb over and it's like a physical barrier where you're leaving the trials to a four wheel drive tack that literally throws you out at the finish line and climbed over that STI. And it was just, we've done it. We know we're almost there. Speaker 2: (45:20) And you can see, you know, you can see that you can hear the people and you can feel that you're getting near and you can light at the end of the tunnel after a very dark long tunnel. Speaker 3: (45:29) Yeah. And it was, it was funny. It's like, wow. You know, you crossed the line, we crossed the line together. I had a big of a bit of a hug and you know, like we've, I think it was a realization for me that, wow, we'd, we'd just done this. There's a huge achievement personally, yeah, Speaker 2: (45:48) It is a huge achievement. What did you feel at the finish line? Because some, sometimes in sunrises I felt like, you know, I've just broken down in tears, absolutely with relief and I can actually stop because you dream about being able to stop and other times it's just no emotion because you just like numb. You sort of wanted that beyond anything. What was your reaction? Speaker 3: (46:10) So what I didn't mentioned is on that way up and over Kinlock Hill towards the 80 and 90 K stations, I, I was going through a real roller coaster of emotion, you know, just trying to get to that final eight station. When I'd, I was on the home stretch, I was, I'm really struggling to hold back the tears. And Johnny was in front of me. My pace was behind me, so they had no idea what my facial expression was. But so, so I thought, and I actually Johnny Johnny and I said, look, there's going to be some tears at the finish line, Hannah pacer be prepared across the finish line. And my overall overwhelming feeling was done it job done. And yeah, it was just satisfaction. I think it was w with no tears at the finish line because I think that emotion had passed and I think it was just sheer bloody relief. Yeah. Keep going. And I think it was excitement of now being able to eat real food like chips or dip or pizza or just something other than you know, a gel or you know, the equivalent paleo equivalent. Yeah, Speaker 2: (47:27) Yeah, yeah, yeah. All the horrible stuff. You're sick to death of what in and you thought EEG and it starts really, really interesting. The emotions that you go through. I did a a hundred K rice with Neil, you know, my, my offsider running hot coaching and it was his face on hundred and I mentioned this before, but he got, you know, he's a, he's a strong, tough med, but it's 70 Ks. He was in tears. He was in so much pain and he couldn't see his way to the finish line. You know, when you get into that deep dark space of absolute despair. And it also, and I cried pretty much every race, you know there's this, I don't think there's ever been an ultra where I haven't balled my eyes out somewhere. It's just part of the thing. And what happens is that when you get, when you have given everything at your body, you are so raw and you're so emotional, like everything is like any little thing can sit you off. Speaker 2: (48:27) Hello D and I was like 180 Kazan or something into death Valley, 270 K the same thing guys. And I was in such a world of pain and there was a 60 kilometer strike road that was just blowing my mind. And Neo was running behind me and he exited. We hit my ankle when he was running, just, just a couple of steps behind. And he hit my ankle and he tripped me up. And the adrenaline rush of being tripped and falling just opened the floodgates of the emotions. Like, cause I was holding it together desperately. And when I fell on the drill and came out, I was just bawling for the next hour, still running up, polling my eyes out and just could not control myself, you know. And he was like mortified. I swapped people who are, who are cruising for me. And it wasn't, it wasn't about him. Just that shock of falling just released everything that you are holding on so tightly toe. It's a ultra marathon and doing something like this huge achievement that you've just done is really it's life squeezed into a 50 an hour or 50 narrow or whatever it was, timeframe. Speaker 3: (49:46) It's, yeah, every emotion that you can possibly feel you in a, in a human lifetime, you can, you know, you just go through a roller coaster of emotions. And I think for me that, you know, from 60 K through two sort of 80, 85 when we crossed that last day station that was probably mentally quite tough, you know, just to keep moving one step after another. And then you, it was just sheer, utter relief. Yeah. Job done. Yeah. Speaker 2: (50:21) Yeah. So now you've done your Europe year in the hundred K club, you're an ultra marathon now done, you've done a few FFTs already in this, your first hundred. How are you feeling? You're three weeks out, have you, what w what often happens with runners, and I won't free that with you, but how did you go through a bit of a elation stage and then a ho down the other side stage and a bit of a depression before you started coming out the other end? Are you still in that roller coaster of a post race situation? How are you keeping now? Oh, we lost you there for a sec. [inaudible] Yup, yup, yup. We know on the pool was sorry about that people. So yeah. Did you F what are you going through now? Emotionally? Speaker 3: (51:16) So I I think I, I probably relaxed too quickly post race. I, I'm is my wife's 40th birthday, a couple of days after. So you know, that new, that normal discipline around diet and hydration probably relaxed a bit too quickly. And I suffered that first week not only with like aching niggles and blistered feet, but I had a, a really heavy, bad, nasty cold. So my immune system was absolutely smashed from the race I think. And just my body going, I think know, thank God that's over. But I, I started walking you know, daily on the Monday. So I had Sunday off, started walking and then walk, running again by Wednesday just to keep the body moving. And I got through the cold and I'm back running. But I've, I've seen some advice in the group around from Neal around, you know, try and keep that long, run to no more than an hour. Speaker 3: (52:14) First month I had a chat with Neil actually around you know, what is my recovery looking like? And I wanted to I, I S I swore during the race I would never do this, but I've started to look at what next and I actually, I'm getting itchy feet around. Myla so 160 K so but it's not for, it's not for cause North burn really appeals to me from a sheer physical challenge. I don't think I wanna go back to Tara [inaudible] and do the a hundred or the 160, because the environments are similar to telco. Yeah. So I'm drawn to really challenging races, physically challenging, like really gnarly mountainous, hilly, tight races. So North really appeals to me. Yeah. So that's a 20, 21 goal, I think. I want to, somebody said to me the other day, take some time to smell the roses. And I'm just going to enjoy running and just mountain biking. You're having fun, but my body's coming. Right. yeah, I I'm just gonna still run absolutely by just, I just wanna run for the enjoyment Speaker 2: (53:26) Of it at the moment for my, for my 2 cents as, as when, when after a race, you often do have an immune system because you have knocked the hell out of your immune system. Really. You've, you've used that point every, a lot of your hormones, like your endorphins and serotonin. So you can go into it at depression about usually 10 days out seeming to teen dies yet is when you usually have a bit of a mental job. You can be on a high for a couple of days straight after the race because you're, you saw you're tired, but just so stuck with yourself and you're on this adrenaline. Your body's been in a fight or flight state during that race. And so it's still in that fight or flight state often for a good couple of days. And then you start to come down from it and that's when you can start to get sick. Speaker 2: (54:10) And you also usually ravenously hungry at this time. So you just pigging out like no tomorrow. And your body is actually goes into a repair state after, you know, a couple of days and you come down and often that can be quite a Rocky road for people. Not always, but it is number one, you've lost the big goal that you had that is now achieved and done and there's a bit of an empty space in your life and then you're, you're also, you've had a bit of a trauma, you've gone through some trauma, so there's some post-traumatic sort of stuff going on. Some you're still working through. What the hell was that that I just experienced, especially when you do overseas races and you are out of your actual cultural environment on top of it all. And then after team dies, you might start to come out of it. Speaker 2: (55:01) That sort of adept, which often happens and then is when your mind starts to go, what next? Because you've got a big hole and you sort of need something to be aiming towards again. Yeah. Thing is, and this phase is, it's great to have and I'm glad you say 2021 because that means that you're being like sensible in, in, you're going to let your body get over this experience and then build yourself up again. And you have some other races, no doubt along the way that will build you to Wallington northbound 2021 and North burners approach little tasks a hundred mater. Like if you, if, if you wanted an easy a hundred water, that ain't it, you know, I bet any easy a hundred motto cause a hundred most soccer balls. But that one is a particularly tough, tough, tough one. But super exciting and an amazing, have been really lovely family. Speaker 2: (55:54) I was cofounder of that race and loved it and I sold it last year to the guys teary and Tom and, and they, they've done a fantastic job with it. And it's really a special special event and it's a small family event as opposed to the big Tyler widow. I'll post that. It's a lot more this corporate feel. It's a lot more intimate. And I also think for me that I wanna quite life is so precious. I want to, I want to spend time being as well and not just getting lost, chasing massive goals all the time. Oh, you're so wise. Honestly, like honestly the, a lot of people go into this phase because I've seen it like, you know, after having trained so many people and gone through this process with so many people, you get to camps, you get the ones who say on never even want to do that to myself again. Speaker 2: (56:44) And then they gone out of, out of it. Hopefully if you've prepared people well, like don't actually fall off completely, but often they need a really decent break or you get other ones who go, that's totally lost without the next huge thing. And I, and I fell into that camp for many, many years on this hamster wheel of having to do events because I didn't know what the hell else to do with myself if I wasn't completely, this was my identity and it was very tied up with who I was and my self esteem and my confidence. And so when, like three years ago, and I actually retired from the long staff because my mom but it was overdue, it was overdue to have a break, you know, at least a break if not, you know feminine. Like, because I was just in this hamster wheel of, of trying to outdo myself all the time. Speaker 2: (57:39) And you can't, you know, there comes a point where you can't do more than you did. You know, you can't keep topping it and keep trying and you just blowing yourself out completely and you're not allowing yourself that recovery time in between. And I can even see it in some of the top, top elite, you know, famous super crazy ultra runners out there that I'm friends with who are still doing it as they're getting older and older and older and this like the fifties and sixties, but that, that they, they the obsessive, you know, and then not as healthy as I could be if they actually took a step back now and I'm going to take some time out for a year or two and just reassessed where my body's at. And it's really hard to do that to step away for a while because you know that to get back to that level, why are we're out now and do a hundred K or something. Speaker 2: (58:36) I couldn't go and just do it because I haven't been trained to get back there would be in your mind, the hard part is when you've done so many is that you expect yourself still to be there even when you are not there. And it really hard one for people coming back from injuries for older runners, people who have retired and then we'll come back out or then I they did to get I've got a lady at the moment who's been struggling with a really bad illness and was comparing herself to how she was two or three years ago as to how she is now and rebuilding and keeping and being very disappointed in herself because she still thinks she's back there instead of going, starting from scratch again in moving forward in what was, is gone and not comparing yourself to who you used to be. Speaker 3: (59:27) Yeah, I think, yeah. And I think you know, when I did coast 10 years ago, coast to coast I started and stopped very abruptly, the whole endurance small sport journey and it took a few years to reconnect with running. I don't want to stop running, but I, there's no way I could do why I probably could, but I, I would just, I wouldn't be best prepared. Do you know what I mean? Speaker 2: (59:53) Wouldn't be the best husband and you wouldn't be the best father, the best person you are at work. You know, so it these things and this is what I try to get across to people is that when you take on these message goals, you are sacrificing some other part of your life and it's, it's and that's fine if that's what you've decided you're going to do, but to understand the impact that it's going to have on your husband and wife and your children, what impact, you know, for positive infinitive it can, but if you are doing it back to back to back to back, it can actually have a negative effect on your family and your friends on it. So what's weighing all that sort of stuff up and understanding where we are as my focus going now? It's something I battle with constantly because part of me wants to go back and do all that crazy stuff right now when I have other priorities, it's just life. Sometimes it's very hard to, to knock it down on yourself and to feel guilty cause you're not doing everything. Speaker 3: (01:00:54) Yes. Yeah. And, and life's important, you've gotta enjoy it as you go through it. And if, yeah, I dunno. That's so I, I, yeah, I finished and I'm happy, but I'm actually at peace now with the fact that next year is some smaller races. But the big one is me potentially in 2021. Speaker 2: (01:01:12) Yeah. And you've done this one and what your friends said celebrate and smell the roses. That is a fantastic principal to take away. And it's something that someone told me at the end of a big race when I just went, Oh, what, you know, I wasn't as fast as so-and-so and I didn't, you know, I bet it's a bit a longer race and they went for goodness sake, you know, after I'd just run a mess. Okay. Right. They just said, you know, cannot, can you not just congratulate yourself, celebrate your wins, integrated into your psyche and who you are before you go chasing the next goal. Yeah. Actually type this hundred K telco run and put it in your hat and go, I fricking did that in our religion for doing that. And I'm gonna, I'm gonna suck this, I'm gonna suck this one dry before I go and chase the next. Speaker 3: (01:02:04) Oh, totally. Yeah. So I think I think with the the English get into the rugby world cup final thing, I'm going to have a little beer or two this weekend. Speaker 2: (01:02:14) Yes. I was saved and then I apply. Well they were, they were absolutely amazing. And, and hits off their guys too. You know, you, you can always be no. So, Hey man, thank you very much for sharing your story. I hope this is empowered and lots of other people listening to this. I hope it's made you think maybe I can do it if Matt can do it. And to understand the journey that you go through and then it isn't or you know, roses, it is difficult along the way, but that you can overcome any final words that you'd want to. If you were talking to you two years ago, what sort of advice would you give Mitt Speaker 3: (01:02:57) If you believe in yourself and believe in others around you? And Oh yeah, just if you want something, go after it and, and no, no distance, no goal is too big, if you know what I mean. Life is, you get one lap in life and you've got to make the most of it Speaker 2: (01:03:17) I made to that one. Speaker 3: (01:03:19) Yeah. So thank you Lisa. I really appreciate the opportunity. Speaker 2: (01:03:22) No, it's been absolutely fantastic. It's wonderful to have you in a running hot coaching tribe in. If anyone else wants to join us, of course we'd love to have you come and join us and check us out. I'm sure Matt will agree it's been a a good journey with, with having a bit of structure to your training and having some goals and someone to, to ask questions to and to make sure that you're doing things right. So Matt, congratulations once again on your huge success and your mess of victory. And we'll talk to you again so no doubt. Awesome. Thanks Lisa. Speaker 4: (01:03:55) [Inaudible] Speaker 1: (01:03:55) That's it this week for pushing the limits. We showed her write, review, and share with your friends and head over and visit Lisa and her team, at least at www.lisatamati.com.

In this episode Lisa talks to Functional Neurologist, Functional Health Practitioner Dr Sam Shay of Colorado about his "Ten Pillars Of Health" model - an integrative approach to personalised health using the latest in research.  Dr Shay talks in-depth on topics like adrenal fatigue, hormone balance, and the effects of different types of exercise, inflammation in the body and brain and more  You can find out more about Dr Shay at these links:   Website links:  Free 15-minute discovery call to see how functional medicine and functional testing is the fast way for your to reach your health and performance goals: http://drsamshay.com/work-with-me/online/ Free ebook on the 10 Pillars of Health & Biohacking & functional testing: http://drsamshay.com/biohacker/ How to genetically determine your optimal diet: www.drsamshay.com/carbchoice Online Courses: Fatigue: www.EndAdrenalFatigue.com Addiction: www.FlourishOutOfAddiction.com Stress: www.TheWorkOnlineCourse.com Facebook: www.Facebook.com/sam.shay.792 Youtube: www.Youtube.com/tenpointwellness Dr. Shay walked his own health journey from being chronically unwell from age 6-18 and overcoming sugar and video game addiction. He dedicated his life to natural medicine get himself and others well, which led him to functional medicine and functional testing.    Dr. Shay helps his clients with custom nutrition and lifestyle plans with his “10 Pillars of Health" framework, the TAME the BEAST of addiction framework, health coaching, and functional testing.    We would like to thank our sponsors Running Hot - By Lisa Tamati & Neil Wagstaff If you want to run faster, longer and be stronger without burnout and injuries then check out and TRY our Running Club for FREE on a 7 day FREE TRIAL Complete holistic running programmes for distances from 5km to ultramarathon and for beginners to advanced runners.   All include Run training sessions, mobility workouts daily, strength workouts specific for runners, nutrition guidance and mindset help Plus injury prevention series, foundational plans, running drill series and a huge library of videos, articles, podcasts, clean eating recipes and more.   www.runninghotcoaching.com/info and don't forget to subscribe to our youtube channel at Lisa's Youtube channel  www.yotube.com/user/lisatamat and come visit us on our facebook group   www.facebook.com/groups/lisatamati Epigenetics Testing Program by Lisa Tamati & Neil Wagstaff. Wouldn’t it be great if your body came with a user manual? Which foods should you eat, and which ones should you avoid? When, and how often should you be eating? What type of exercise does your body respond best to, and when is it best to exercise? These are just some of the questions you’ll uncover the answers to in the Epigenetics Testing Program along with many others. There’s a good reason why epigenetics is being hailed as the “future of personalised health”, as it unlocks the user manual you’ll wish you’d been born with! No more guess work. The program, developed by an international team of independent doctors, researchers, and technology programmers for over 15 years, uses a powerful epigenetics analysis platform informed by 100% evidenced-based medical research. The platform uses over 500 algorithms and 10,000 data points per user, to analyse body measurement and lifestyle stress data, that can all be captured from the comfort of your own home Find out more about our  Epigenetics Program and how it can change your life and help you reach optimal health, happiness and potential at: https://runninghotcoaching.com/epigenetics You can find all our programs, courses, live seminars and more at www.lisatamati.com    Speaker 1: (00:01) Welcome to pushing the limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential with your host, Lisa Tama T brought to you by Lisatamati.com Speaker 2: (00:14) Well, hi everybody. Lisa Tamati here at "pushing the limits". It's fantastic to have you back again. I'm really excited for today's guest. This is somebody that I've actually stumbled across in my search to help my mum and I'm going to be working hopefully with Dr Sam Shay in the future in that regard. But this man is a very special doctor. He is a functional medicine practitioner. He's a chiropracter, he's an acupuncturist and he's going to, she has some mind blowing stuff with you guys today that I really want you to pay attention to. So welcome to the show. Dr Sam is fantastic. Speaker 3: (00:49) Thank you so much for having me. I really, really enjoy sharing this information through podcasts. I love, Iteaching more than almost anything and this is such a great medium Speaker 2: (01:00) To help just to help people and such a scalable way. It's, it's fantastic. And, and everything that you've been talking to me about, I'm just like absolutely mind blowing. And, and the stuff that you have on your website and dr Shay is actually in Colorado in America, has previously been in New Zealand and been practicing in New Zealand is over in the States again where you come from looking after a sick relative unfortunately. But he's taken a bit of time out today. He's going to share some of his insights around the 10 pillars of health which is going to go now, dr Sam has such a wide array of knowledge that we're only going to be able to touch the surface on a couple of areas today. But I do hope to get the same back to dive deeper into some of the areas once we've covered them. Speaker 2: (01:51) So dr Sam, as you want to share it, you've got a PowerPoint there. Now I know that people are listening on podcasts as well as on YouTube, but for those of you who do want to see this presentation that not the same is going to share with us right now. You can hop over to dr Sam's website, which is docked the same shade. It is H a y.com forward slash bio hacker and you can actually see the slide. So if you are with us on the podcast and not on YouTube, you can put over there and we'll put that in the show notes. Of course, right over to you, dr Sam, tell us a little bit about yourself and what you've got there. Speaker 3: (02:29) Thank you. So the, the, the context behind all of this is Speaker 2: (02:35) I'm, my background Speaker 3: (02:39) Is that I had a really, really rough go as a kid in terms of of being very chronically unwell core health, lots of high stress from extremely Speaker 2: (02:50) A F Speaker 3: (02:51) Contentious divorce. I had severe insomnia, severe got issues of fatigue. I had developed a sugar addiction. I was dealing, I didn't know it was gluten and dairy at the time, but I was on a high gluten high dairy diet, which was not working with my system as part of my severe gut issues. But no one, no one really understood why I was unwell. It's kind of this mystery mystery stuff going on. And both of my parents and being medical doctors, they, their particular training was not in looking at lifestyle in a holistic manner. It was more a, it's in your head or you're missing some sort of drug or there's something or you're just making it up. And the, the, the reality is, is that it was, it was far more complex than a psychological diagnosis. There was real physiological problems that were not taken seriously. Speaker 3: (03:48) So I, I was dealing with so much stuff, I was like a war zone at school with a physical and psychological bullying. I mean, just as something for people listening here I'm going to issue a kind of an uncomfortable question, but it's an important question. It's like what is the difference between a physical assault and physical bullying in school? And the answer is there's two things. One is what the two things are. You're, if you're over 18 and you're out of school, it's called assault. But if you're under 18 and still in school, it's called bullying. And you should just get over it, quit whining. You know? And the verbal billing as well. Like if people, if people, if they're over 18 and outside of school, and we're told the things with the level of vitriol and venom that I was told in grade school, the people who would say such things would have a restraining order put against them. Speaker 3: (04:40) Yeah. But in school it's just like, Oh, he's just, it's just tough enough. You know, it's fine, you know, whatever. But it's not, these things were extremely damaging was physically and emotionally. And what compounded from that was an onslaught of severe physiological reactions, a sugar addiction, video game addiction over eating constant postural torsion of being in a defensive mode that affected my spine as a chronic back pain, which I thought was normal for over a decade. I thought having pain was normal, a severe, debilitating insomnia and all sorts of other things. And my, my, my journey, basically, I snap to it when I was in high school and realized that natural medicine was my only way out. So I had, I had to work through all sorts of stuff from like a coffee habit starting at age six. Wow. All sorts of stuff was happening and I, I recovered from addiction and burnout by figuring out multiple, multiple modalities, not because I went out and said, Oh, I have to figure out multiple things. Speaker 3: (05:46) It was, I went through the typical journey I've seen most of my clients go through was I'm unwell with this thing, whether it's got issues or fatigue or I had a head injury or some sort of neurological degeneration or a really bad accident or a brain fog or foreman dysregulation or gut issues or all these things. And I, someone told me about a product, a personality or a protocol and I'm going to try it. Yup. And so I went and just did whatever people I trusted at the moment said to do, go see this person and go try this product. Go try this protocol, go learn this, go do that. And I call it magic bullet therapy. Yeah. I was chased F yeah. Looking for that magic, that little thing that will fix you. And there is no thing there. Well there's a can where actually figured out how magic bullet therapy can work for certain people. Speaker 3: (06:41) The model also explains magic bullet therapy that the, the, what happened was a, for people like me who had multiple things, a crumbling in there using the pillar, the motif of a pillar of health and in my model is 10 pillars of health. If you have multiple pillars crumbling, and if like what I observed in my clinical practice was that people with chronic issues, like I said, like fatigue or chronic pain or hormone dysregulation or chronic gut issues or brain fog or what anything else that's going on, they had a minimum seven out of 10 pillars crumbling. Wow. Okay. Now what that means practically is that if a protocol, personality or product at most helps up to three pillars. Yup. So if you're good, most clinicians, if they're honest or really, really good at one to three pillars, maybe five or so like, but if you've got seven plus that are crumbling, you're gonna like get unpredictable or temporary results or the plateau or whatever it's going to be. Speaker 3: (07:47) Now, I had all 10 out of 10 pillars when I actually reflected back on my own life with the model. And that's why it was took so long to figure out what was going on. And more importantly, what I had to do because there was no unified model at the time when I was struggling, but I was going through some, what I found is that if we assess these 10 pillars, if we assess these 10 pillars correctly and most importantly just understand them, then we can start to really, really chart a path forward. Instead of doing the magic bullet therapy where we hope it's this one thing that's going to work and then it doesn't, and then we feel bad and I'm like, Oh my God, I'm never going to get well. Or this person you know, was hyping me up and like it's on like they were just blowing smoke or whatever. And the reality is is that if someone has nine pillars that are like 70% okay, and there's one that's at 30% and they just happened to find the goji Berry juice to squirt up their nose or whatever, you know, and their Speaker 3: (08:56) Bionutrient pillar happened to be the one that was deficient in whatever goji Berry juice has. Speaker 2: (09:02) Okay. Speaker 3: (09:02) Then they feel a hundred times better than they're going to be the ones walking around telling everyone to buy their goji Berry juice. Speaker 2: (09:08) Exactly. Yup. Speaker 3: (09:10) Whereas if you're at, you flip it and you've got one pillar that's a 70% and nine that are 30% goji berries, you's ain't going to do Speaker 2: (09:17) Jack. Yeah. And then, Speaker 3: (09:19) But the goji person who sold you the goji juice will say, Oh, you're not feeling better. Just take more. Speaker 2: (09:26) Okay. Speaker 3: (09:26) Like that's the answer. It's always more of the magic bullet as opposed to stepping back and looking at Speaker 2: (09:33) At the pillars as a whole. So, and this is really the case. Does that kind of architecture makes sense? Yeah. Because like we not simplistic beings, we have very complicated structures. We have, we have so many different areas. And this is what I find too. Like my, my list is Noah story with my mum is the you. And it was very much a multipronged approach. I mean, I didn't know about the team pillars at the time and we started working with mum yet in regards to the team pillows. But we, but I took a very multipronged approach to the way I treated her. And when somebody asked me what was the one thing, there was no one, there was no, there were things that were definitely helpful in that I would, you know get people to, to look into. But we aren't simplistic beings that can take a little white pill and everything's going to go away. And we all want that because it's easy. But taking holistic look at your whole health as totally agreed as I'm a very, very important thing. So you had adrenal exhaustion basically in fatigue and all of these things happening as a young person and you've used this experience that you went through to actually go and work out how to get yourself right and now help, you know, hundreds of other people with us knowledge. So let's go through some of the pillars and, and how that works. Speaker 3: (11:03) Sure. So just, just a quick caveat in terms of the reference to the little white pill. Just for context. Look, both my parents are medical doctors and so as my grandfather, in fact, my father and grandfather are quite famous in the medical world. And just, I'm not anti Western medicine. What I see is that it's about application. So Western medicine was developed from military medicine, which is emergency care where you don't have missing eye syndrome or bleeding arm or like bleeding ice syndrome or missing arm disease. Those are actual emergencies that need to be stabilized. So Western medicine is genius and should be celebrated for stabilization of emergency situations. And that's really the gift of Western medicine. That's really what the primary use of the, the, it's, it's Western medicine is predicated on stable is stabilizing. The problem was when that philosophy is as applied to non-emergency issues, chronic States, chronic pain, like in, that's where natural medicine is really thrives in looking at the chronic underlying things that are not emergencies but are crippling. Speaker 3: (12:18) As well as the thing with natural medicine is looking at bringing people up to not just mere normal or mere absence of symptoms, but actually to optimal. So when emergency medicine, if misapplied is at best masks, the debilitating symptoms to set of symptoms to give you a less debilitating set of symptoms. Little white pills are a radical sledgehammer to your physiology and you rebuild the pieces in a slightly different orientation. It's shifting the symptomatology. You can't add a poisonous substance to a system and expect it to get healthier. What you can do in the best case scenario is shift what you're experiencing. And I'm not being inflammatory. When I say adding a poisonous substance, when I talk about a medication, there's a term called an LD 50 illegal lethal dose, 50%. A medication cannot be classified as a medication unless it kills her 30% of a rat population controlled study. Speaker 3: (13:17) So I'm not being inflammatory, I'm being technical. When I say medications are poisons, but they can be extremely useful to help stabilize a critical situation or by time if your symptoms are so debilitating that you need to shift your symptoms to something more tolerable so that you can then do what? Look at the 10 pillars of health to figure out what's wrong underneath it. So we need to really contextualize the little white pill in a collaborative manner where there is a place for it. I'm not trained in the little white pill. Yup. I'm trained in the natural side of things. I feel like what's what's really happening, what can happen is that there can be a rejoinder of this collaboration at of of natural medicine in Western medicine and in fact functional medicine is that meaning point functional medicine, which is what I practice that is using the best of Western medical diagnostics. Yes. With the best of natural medicine lifestyle intervention and the best of functional nutrition as one of the tools to help bring people back to balance. Speaker 2: (14:29) This is just so, so important. I am, you know, I, Speaker 3: (14:33) Okay Speaker 2: (14:34) As a light person who's not got a medical background at all, I've come to the Zech same conclusion that there are benefits on both things and there's, there's no such thing as a free biological lunch. If you, if you are taking pills, it's, it's going to help maybe with one or two symptoms, but it's going to be having other consequences generally speaking. And this is where we're just taking one pill to cover up that symptom, which causes another problem. So you take another pill and product cover up that system. And that's the sort of thing that's happening with chronic disease and in our society. And this different approach. And I, you know, there's differently a massive movement at the moment. Thank goodness of people like yourselves. And other areas where this new science coming online and this new approach has been taken. And this combined approach I think is very exciting time for, for us. Unfortunately when you usually go to your local doctor, they're 20 years behind this stuff that we're talking about often. Yeah. Speaker 3: (15:39) And it's changing. I mean, the younger generation of, of Western trained doctors, they're, they're witnessing what's happening to their parents and grandparents, perhaps themselves or their siblings or even their children. And there's a whole new perspective that's happening where they are starting to look more holistically. And it's really people, you know, [inaudible] people such as myself who really wants to create the bridge that we create these frameworks. And what the 10 pillars of health does is that it will prevent fanaticism. Even amongst the natural health world, there's some people think it's all about dealing with the infection or it's all about dealing with toxin of choice, whether it's mercury or you know, sprays or whatever it may be, or no, it's all about getting the right nutrients or whatever. And the reality is is that the 10 pillars, we'll balance it out. And it also explains the entire cycle of chronic disease. Speaker 3: (16:34) So when we look here, we've got bad lifestyle choices or bad circumstances. So, so bad circumstances, like I'm a six year old boy and I'm being fed high gluten, high dairy, we know sleep being bullied and assaulted at school, dealing with the stress of divorce at home. How did it picked up an infection from swimming in a Lake at summer camp, chronic pain, poor posture, you know all these, you know, all of these things mixed into one. Lots of toxic exposure. That's not a choice. That's a circumstance we didn't have. So absolutely. So you got choices and circumstances which are interpreted through one's individual genetics. You get one or more of the four adaptive responses so people can respond to bad choices and bad circumstances. The body responds with the combination of inflammation, blood sugar dysregulation, free radical damage or tissue breakdown. So for example, if it's the gut, you can get in Flint, inflammation in the gut, your blood sugar can get dysregulated. Speaker 3: (17:30) So your, your appetite and your, your, your craving cycles get all messed up. Tissue breakdowns where the gut lining breaks down and free radical damage from all just just creating destruction all around chronic adaptation interpreted through one's genetics, leads to damage of one of the three, one or more of the three main body systems. That's the liver detox system, the gut GI system, or the neuroendocrine hormone system. So if you have chronic damage to your liver, your gut and or your foreman system, you then get an expression of symptoms, whether it's fatigue or lower mood or digestion, weight gain cravings and Somnia pain, burnout, hot flushes, whatever it may be. And if you have lots of symptoms than people cope with bad lifestyle choices, which then leads to more adaptation, more damage, more symptoms, more coping, more adaptation and round and round a ghost. I mean this is basically explaining 20 years of my clinical, you know, education in one slide in one a couple of sentences. Speaker 3: (18:30) And it's, it's really important to understand this cycle because then what the symptoms people are experiencing with are the expressions of their body trying to adapt. They make sense. It's not like a some sort of unique conspiracy of the universe due to bad germs, bad genes, bad luck or bad timing. And what we do is that we assess the 10 pillars of health and detail, then use functional testing, like taking the adrenals, checking the liver, checking genetics, checking gut, checking for parasites, checking or checking the mitochondria, checking thyroid. We use these functional tests to clarify how the body is adapting and what systems have been damaged and then customize a nutrition diet, lifestyle plan while correcting the 10 pillars lifestyles in parallel. Then you can reverse the whole process in a truly meaningful, sustainable way. So this slide, I mean as I'm describing it for just our listeners, and again, you can get it, you know, you can get this entire ebook from my website. Speaker 3: (19:38) It's if you understand this cycle, then you have the knowledge to know that you can't reverse the cycle and a meaningful longterm way. And that's what functional medicine does. So with the 10 pillars, I mean we, we'll go through each of the 10 pillars. The first one is called brain, it's called brain. Each of the pillars begins with a B. Cause I'm a teacher, I like mnemonics and elevation and all that stuff. Brain is brain and hormones. So we're looking at the adrenal system, the thyroid system, the sex hormone system. And in regards to the sex hormone system, we look primarily to estrogen dominance, toxic exposure to outside estrogens or from microwave plastics or soy products or a question, you know, questionable cosmetics and body lotions and or all the chemicals, vegetables that have been sprayed or meats that are pumped with hormones depending on the country of origin and things like that. Like with the adrenal system, like I had severe what's called colloquially quote unquote adrenal fatigue. But in reality it's renamed hypo cortisol ism hypo meaning low cortisol, meaning low cortisol. Cortisol is the one of the hormones, the adrenals release that regulates blood sugar, helps drop inflammation and helps you handle stress. So if you are unable to, and I have, I have all my my, I have four labs that I showed on on my stress system, like the before and afters over the years going from flat, literally flat line to Tet near textbook normal. Speaker 2: (21:12) I'm the opposite. I had a Dutch tastes done, you know, dried urine test done. And because you know, I've had a listeners know, I've had a very, very stressful last four years. My, my, so adrenal, what did you call it hyper cortisol? Cortisol ism? Yes. Hypercortisolism I've got no cortisol basically. Right. Flatline from, from the beginning to the end. And all the hormones are out of whack. So low testosterone, low progesterone, low estrogen and of course coming into menopause as well. And why case? So mine was even below that. That bottom line. Speaker 3: (21:52) Yeah. Yeah. I'm showing, I'm showing right now. I skipped ahead to the labs on the, on the ebook. So that show too, Speaker 2: (21:58) This is fascinating for me because I mean obviously I'm, I'm dealing with this myself. And I know a lot of our athletes are as well that we train literal burnout. Yeah. Yeah. Then we hopefully we'll get into a bit of a discussion about marathon training and what Speaker 3: (22:14) Actually if there's a good connection right here because I wrote an article which I a quote unquote diplomatically entitled why marathon runners look like cancer patients. So I know a lot of people listening here are long distance runners and I make zero apologies for that title. Yeah. And I'll tell you why, because I grew up literally on T-bone street next to heartbreak Hill. Now if you do long distance running, heartbreak Hill for the Boston marathon is like Mecca. Like it's, it is, it is the, it is a thing all runners know about. And I was literally up my street growing up and I remember six years old and, and I knew I was going to be a doctor at age six I didn't realize it'd be a natural doctor. I just knew I was gonna be a doctor. And I'll give you an example. I'm standing there with my mother who's also a medical doctor, and I look at her looking at the Boston marathon and people going by, I said, mommy, why do they look sick? And she said, no, no, they're healthy. They're doing marathon. I'm like, mommy, they look sick. Like, no, no, it's good for their heart. They're doing cardio. I was like, mommy, they look sick. All right, Speaker 2: (23:21) Have a marathon when they are fatigued. Well, Speaker 3: (23:24) No, it's actually, it's not. We weren't like really at the end end of, of the of it was looking at their bodies. It wasn't looking at the fatigue, it was looking at the ratios, their muscle mass ratios relative to their height and they looked like cancer. I didn't know that term at the time, but they look too skinny. Something was wrong. And the relationship is to cortisol. Now I, I learned this from Dr. Mark J. Smith PhD who, who wrote these brilliant primer explaining the physiology in detail. But I'll give you just a super brief summary and if you want more elaborate summary, you can go to my website and read the article and there's a link there. You can also look up the primer from Dr. Smith. But here's what happens is that cortisol as a hormone is designed to keep you alive under under extreme eye threatening situations. Speaker 3: (24:13) So cortisol is to basically tell your body to release as much quick to burn fuel as possible sugar in order to burn in your muscles as quickly as possible or to get away from the tiger or the Wolf pack or the bear or whatever your predator choices. So it will, including cortisol will that you wrote muscle tissue to convert muscle protein into sugar in order to keep you alive from the proverbial life threatening predator. Yep. So the problem with long distance marathoning is that what, what's happening is that you don't actually shut off the cortisol response. Jogging actually perpetuates this constant high secretion of cortisol for ending. Even when you stop jogging continues. Whereas with high intensity interval training, you get a spike of cortisol, which you get a concomitant spike of growth hormone and testosterone, which then heals the body, rebuilds the muscles and all the rest of it. Speaker 3: (25:14) Assuming you don't overdo high intensity interval training. So that's why I don't teach H I T I teach S H I T safe high intensity interval training or I call shine deploy your podcast off the put a flag on there but say five intensity and we'll train cause people can over do high intensity interval training and the, yeah, because that's something that I went from doing ultra marathons and extreme string on business for 25 years. They know and doing a high intensity short staff, which for a while as well. But both have actually smashed the adrenal, correct? Yes, correct. And that is, that is so typical. And the reason, and here's why. Here's the S safe, high intensity interval training is not an exercise. It's a principle in which you fit exercise into it. The principle has to apply to like my first practice in New Zealand was in the Bay of plenty. Speaker 3: (26:09) I had, you know, you know [inaudible] was like [inaudible]. It's basically the Florida of new Zealand's the retirement community for New Zealand and then North on it I have to give instructions to an 80 year old osteoporotic grandmother of how did you save high intensity interval training? If I tell him to do wind sprints, she's going to snap in half. Right? So the principal has to be translated across all ages. Otherwise it's not a principle. So okay, so the principle, again, the details are on on the the blog, on the blog and website, but in short form it's you do a exercise that brings you to a deep muscle burn within a minute or less followed by full recovery. The full recovery bit is what most people miss or they overdid it. Go beyond a minute with the deep muscle burn mostly it's the full recovery bit and you don't do high intensity interval training. Speaker 3: (27:11) You do at least one day of rest in between. Most people, what most people, what they do is they do this ridiculous 30 seconds on, 10 seconds off, 30 seconds on 10 seconds of whatever arbitrary number and that is not unique to you. So for me, when I started doing high intensity interval training, I have a specialized stepper and I had no weights that I was doing flies with or whatever. So I got on the stepper minute or less deep muscle burn took me over 40 minutes to recover. Terribly embarrassing terms, really embarrassing, you know, whatever. Fine. I just swallowed my pride and I just kept to that principle of a minute or less to get into a deep muscle burn followed by full recovery. Fast forward a couple months, I am doing the same stepper with 10 kg weights in each arm doing flies and my recovery time is less than five minutes. Speaker 3: (28:08) Okay. So what improved? My recovery time went from 40 plus. I just stopped counting after 40 I was too embarrassed the first time to keep looking. You don't get your heart rate going back down to your not heart rate. I wasn't, I wasn't looking at heart rate. It was burn rate and breath rate. Heart rate is fine to monitor, but it's uncomfortable to wear those. Back then it was you, now you have these fancy watches and stuff that make it easy. But back then it was those awful chest straps and yeah, it was terrible. So I, so I look for where the burn rate is gone and the breath rate is normal. If you don't have access to an easy heart rate, even then, I wouldn't even do it if I was still have muscles burning. If I was panting. What happened was my recovery rate improved and my, the intensity I required to get to the same deep muscle burn in the same minute or less improved. Speaker 3: (28:57) That's the measure of progress, not how much longer I, I can go and not how much and, and not if I can keep going more for multiple days in a row. That's what makes it safe. Safety is about honoring your own biochemistry. And the reason why it's the minute or less is it cause you watch any David Attenborough special. Okay. And you look at biochemistry, you ha you are an anaerobic glycolysis, which is geek speed for quickly sprinting away, using burning sugar quickly without using your mitochondria, meaning the very efficient longterm energy producing organelle in the cells to generate your energy from the longterm growth repair. I don't know if your life's on the line and Wolf pack is not chasing you down. You're not interested in long term growth. Repair your shouldn't getting away as quickly as you can. Yup. You have a minute or less to get away and that is mapped into the biochemistry of your cells because anaerobic glycolysis is under a minute long. You'll watch any David Attenborough special. How long are those animal chases? How long are they? Less than a minute. But what about the hope Speaker 2: (30:04) Since hunting? You know like I mean I did a TV series on we are born to run that we born for long distance persistent type hunting that we always used to do on average around 20 kilometers a day in sisterly speaking from one village to the next or one tribe to the next week. We were doing long distance walking mostly. Speaker 3: (30:26) That's it. That's, that's the whole that, that's the key word walking. Yes, I did. I did an, I did an entire presentation on, on walking once. It's about 12 major theories for the emergence of by pugilism. Yep. Okay. There's multiple, multiple converging theories. One of which is the ability to walk down, pray versus sprint them down. And so that's mitochondrial, not an aerobic. Hmm. Okay. And the issue with, when we fear by Peatal, you only have two points of impact on your skeletal system versus four, which is more exhausting for a, a Quadro pet, you know, a horse or a deer or an antelope or a wildebeest or whatever. Additionally, we have less surface or exposure to the sun if we're by pedal. So when the sun's bearing down a quadrupedal, which has their entire back and their neck and their have fur, they're going to get, they're going to basically get cooked. Speaker 3: (31:23) They're going to burn up by the sun. Whereas humans, we have way less surface area to get roasted by the sun. In fact, one of the theories, we have an extra hour of hunting per day because of that, that siesta period where the sun is the hottest. We have an extra hour to literally just like walk up and poke a prey. Well it couldn't move it so hot because we, we invent, we can sweat. We've got like there's, there's 12 major theories we can also I mean you can look at Wikipedia is a wonderful article on bipedalism. It's, if people are really want to nerd out on this, I encourage them, go to Wikipedia, look this up. But things like we stand up, you know, a couple animals do stand or temporarily stand, but we like Stan, Stan, Stan, yup. And that also gives us a horizon view. Speaker 3: (32:08) Like we can see higher up, we can see farther, we can look down. It also gives us an advantage for watching for snakes, which are a real, real problem for for tree drilling chimps that became land walking, you know, by petals. In fact, you want to get some really kind of mythological here. What is a dragon? A dragon is a Firebrick is a combination of all the things that threatened treat drone chimps over millions of years. Forest fires and lightning strikes, tree climbing, snakes, predatory birds and tree climbing felines. So what's a dragon? It's got the wings of a predatory bird. It's got the tail and head of this tree climbing snake of a tree dwelling snake and it's got the paws and the jaws and the legs of a tree climbing feline and a police fire like the forest fires and the lightning strikes. So that's the dragons and like nearly every culture and like some of these kind of, these motifs are like genetically burned into us and we evolved as a way to compensate for all these major threats. Speaker 3: (33:20) When, so with the, with the hunting, going back to hunting you answered it with the walking that that walking is the most single, most sustainable, yet stable, yet strong motion in the entire human nervous system. And there's multiple, like you, you relax and contract basically every muscle. So you have this kind of, it's like respiration. You breathe in, breathe out. So you can do this for long, long periods of time and not [inaudible] get fatigued. So why is jogging, you know like when you're doing ultra marathons, obviously it's very short. It's as a slow, as a slow moving running. Why is that not the same? Because when you're jogging, you're in this kind of purgatory between walking and running. When sprinting rather running's a vague term. I prefer jogging and sprinting and walking. To be clear, to be clear, because when you sprint, you go into anaerobic glycolysis and you create this factually five mechanisms by which you secrete growth hormone as as a consequence when you sprint, you create the hormone physiology to repair and build up your system. Speaker 3: (34:30) And this makes total sense. If you're sprinting away from a tiger on Tuesday, you need a hormone mechanism to build you quicker, stronger, leaner, faster. Is that tiger on Tuesday is probably still there on Thursday. Yup. So you're free to run away from jogging, jogging, you, you go faster than walking, but you don't get the growth hormone release. You do. So you erode [inaudible]. It's just because jogging does exist, it doesn't mean it's the healthiest thing to do. Like because we have this intermediate thing between walking and sprinting, it doesn't mean it's healthy. It can be tactically useful, but it doesn't always mean that it's the healthy thing to do. And that's the confusion. Like people think that on training for my sport, well, training for your sport is almost never training for your health. No. Yes, I'd agree with it. And that's the same thing with jogging. Speaker 3: (35:23) Is it useful to jog in order to get food to bring back to your tribe? So you sacrifice a little bit of yourself in order so that you and your tribe can survive longterm. Absolutely. Is it, is it safe to run up, run up and try to poke a thing with a stick that has fangs hose or a clause is that, you know, it's, it's but, but there's the sacrifices that are involved and, and there's these intermediate, you know, phenomenon like jogging between walking and sprinting that have found utility even though they are dangerous long term for the individual. Speaker 2: (36:02) So, okay. So, you know, I'm coming from an ultra marathon background and I've run into a number of brick walls because of stuff that I have done. I haven't run into problems like, you know, I'm still a very muscular build and I know a lot of my ultra marathon colleagues if you like, and not the skinny marathon runner that's portrayed in the media or is actually a bit of a miss no more if you like. Nowadays it's all sorts of people that they do. And that we [inaudible] change towards the sport in which you are suited as well. So if you, you're saying a sprinter looks healthy and strong and fed up and, and more muscular, but he's chosen that sport because he is that way inclined. I kept Chuggy marathon runner is also, you know, a healthy individual and, but has a different just see the Jane's to Usain bolt. Speaker 3: (37:02) So genetics, there is a reality with genetics, okay. That that is a reality. But there's, there's the people that show up to win the Boston marathon. This is where bell curve statistics matter. It's, it's the far, far, far edge of the bell curve that is glamorized and talked about and try to emulate and runner's magazine or whatever, and that's just simply a, an extreme of it all and the reality is is that most of us people are going to do marathon running marathon. Running as a whole is in terms of the cortisol system is extremely unhealthy because it erodes away your muscle tissue. The way you tell the difference between a marathon or an a cancer patient is you look at their thighs. Marathoners still has some thighs, but it has a thighs because that's the only muscle group. It's actually getting real any type of exercise in terms of muscle building, muscle engagement, whereas cancer that everything's eroded equally because you with, the thing with marathon is a cortisol is secreted for such a long period of time so consistently that it erodes the muscle tissue and if people in benefits to doing jogging and marathoning in different senses like they get outside, they get sunlight, they join a huge supportive community. Speaker 3: (38:30) There's an entire ecosystem of community support, language, a jargon, a clothing on meetup groups. Food groups, food, like you plug into a tribe. And that has meaning. Like I worked with someone in [inaudible] who was a depressive and he loved his marathoning and the clinical call that I made was keep marathoning because that's where he is with people. He doesn't isolate himself. He's in the sun, he's moving. And I said, we're just going to work on your other nine pillars. But it is, it is more clinically appropriate that you keep marathon because it fits the higher imperative, which is, which is mood. So I'm not an absolutist, a real clinician as a pragmatist, not a perfectionist. Speaker 2: (39:23) Yeah. And, and for me, like running and for a lot of my community, a running safe, they're there. They saw, you know, the psychological stuff. For me, it's like my life. I don't think I'd be alive if I didn't have running because of runnings. A power to get you out of the, the, the shit that you run in, in the psychological saints and the depression and the and give you a sense of, of doing something positive. And of course the endorphin high, the runner's high, that you get all of that good side of it. So I'd agree with, with all of that Speaker 3: (39:55) And people say what you said, what are this about Brazilian jujitsu or dancing or like, or it's, and the thing is what people confuse is the tactic, whether it's marathoning or jujitsu for the one true way. Sure. And that's where the fanaticism comes in and that's where it gets dangerous. Where people think, Oh my God, you were questioning my running, how Jerry Wade completely change my life. It's like, no, I'm not. I'm not, I don't deny the life changing things that it's done for you. But my job as someone who's in natural medicine is to not ignore the consequences of people going too deep into whatever thing they're doing it with marathoning or something else. And that's why the 10 pillars is a rounded out picture. And what I tell, I'll tell you what I told this gentleman that I helped up in Oakland. Okay. I said, okay, do your marathon, but, but do this for me. I want you to do walk, sprint, walk, sprint a couple of times during it. And then when you get to the finish line, I want you to sprint to the end, into a deep muscle burn and finish there because the anaerobic bursts will help you chew up the cortisol so it doesn't perpetuate after you're done. So it's so you can adapt even marathoning to make it less damaging but still enjoy the other peripherals of enjoying the marathon Speaker 2: (41:24) W and we, with our run trading system that we have, we are very holistic in our approach. So we get a lot of birds out, runners coming to us who have done high monitor training. So we, for example, don't do what I call junk miles. And we do the minimum effective dose basically, and we build and mobility work can be Boden. So daily mobility work and, and strength training runs specific strength training so that we can maintain our muscle mass so that we go, yep, it's, it's it's a new approach to the running way of life, if you like. And it's building and some of the stuff that you saying and this is why I love these sort of conversations and being able to openly discuss these instead of going, Oh, well that's not true. And I don't agree with that. It's to say, well, yes, there's there's some different things. Speaker 2: (42:14) And what you were saying here is, is I've seen it on my own body. I've seen I've made the mistakes on my own body. And I've, we've, we've worked at a system where people can still do their passion without killing themselves. And that is by building in going anabolic, going strength training, growing by having the right nutrition looking for, you know, the signs of that your body is losing muscle mass. The adrenal whole Dremel sides. Obviously I haven't done too well on that with myself, but it more as from the stress of the last few years I think. Yup. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. You know, one of your things was having a loved one who's sick and it's differently what's caused my problems or some of them as well as pushing my body too hard because we do from a personality type, in my case, very extremist. So have in the past gone to the absolute, you know, limits of crazy. And that in itself I'm having to moon to it has its benefits because you achieve amazing things, exceptional things, but it also has its price. And as you get older, you start to realize that the extremes like you seed in some way, sometimes it's better to be in the curve in the middle somewhere and not always be on the, the absolute limits. So this is a really interesting conversation and I'm fascinated with the whole adrenal side. Speaker 3: (43:43) I'll also, I'll show you a bit more about my particular adrenal journey. So at first I'll describe it for those who are just listening what I'm showing my March, 2015 results and I'm flat lined on my adrenal testing adrenal. This is a four spot adrenal test. There's an upgraded version where there's a six five it's called the cortisol awakening response. We don't have time to go into that, but I'm just going to show you the four spot. Basically, your cortisol has a rhythm where it's highest in the morning, Speaker 2: (44:06) Okay? Speaker 3: (44:06) Because you need high cortisol to keep sugar in your blood, to keep your brain alive while you sleep because you don't eat while you sleep and then it goes down through the day and eventually it's lowest at night so you can sleep and then arises during your sleep so you can keep your brain alive. I was flatlined and then it got slightly better in March, 2000 when I retested it in March, 2017 I was still super low when I woke up, but my other results were in the normal [inaudible]. Then I bought a year later in February, 2018 I had approximately the exempt, the same results as the March, 2017 despite a much better lifestyle, I had a massive amount of stress. I had the death of my mentor, the, the neurodegeneration of my father with dementia, which is why I came back to the States. And so like, despite much better lifestyle, my, my adrenals basically did not improve. And then I have January, 2019 11 months later, it's now near textbook normal. Wow. Because a, just so much stress of have recovered from so much of the stress in my lifestyle. So continue to improve. So you can see that stress, stress is stress is one of the four of the 10 pillars that can be sledgehammered. Yeah. Okay. So most, so let's, I think it'd be prudent just to cover the 10 pillars and brief. Yup. And then I can speak more. Speaker 3: (45:28) I can speak more about there's hope. Yeah. So basically the four, the 10 pillars and briefly brain and hormone system. Second pillar is bowel and digestion. You know, prioritize your poop, do your number twos. So how well do you chew? How well do you poop? You know, common mistakes. People rush eating or they have bad bowel movements or they skip pooping or they ignore gut problems they've got testing. Can check for hidden infections and how well you digest food. Pillar number three is a physical body, which includes old injuries, a bad dental work, which is rife in New Zealand. Fortunately all you know, rugby accident, it was rugby found it was in when I was in New Zealand. I saw demographically for men, the primary source of untreated injuries were car accidents Speaker 3: (46:19) A car accidents, rugby injuries and violence between men and for women. It was car accidents via a horse falls and violence from men. Yeah, those are the three. The three main things I saw based on the gender, demographic, gender, demographics for physical injury and body pillar is also genetics. So I run a lot of genetics testing through you know, all these for people, like for people in New Zealand or around the world listening to this. Like I do, I do telemedicine. So like all the test kits or drop ship nutrients or drop ship discussions are had through, you know, phone. I mean it's so far. So like I can help people wherever they are and the test kits can be sent to wherever. And the great company fit jeans that's actually in Australia, but there's a provider through New Zealand and there's, I talk mostly about inflammation. Speaker 3: (47:14) The antiinflammatory genes are really important for your runners because people who do who over-exercise this is something really interesting. People who act, the more they exercise, the fatter they get. Yeah. You come across some of these people. Okay. So that's a genetic issue where they over initiate inflammation, they over propagate and they have problems quenching it. So when you exercise, you do trigger inflammation. That's normal. But if you over initiate it and it over propagates and you can't put it out, like instead of a fire hose, you have a squirt gun. Yep. This is where you get inflammatory, get weight gain, inflammatory water, weight gain, like your muscles wash up Speaker 2: (47:52) Story. If I'm idea, I ran through Zeeland for charity. So the 2,250 K's and 42 days. Oh my gosh, yes. And I put on weight. I was, and I, that was a turning point for me where I went, what the hell? I'm, I'm, you know, 70 kilometers a day Speaker 3: (48:09) And from inflammatory bodyweight loop, that's it. That's what happened is the inflamma it's inflammatory weight gain. It's not caloric inflammatory weight gain. Speaker 2: (48:17) Exactly. And that, and I couldn't understand why the hell I thought I would be, you know, really, really skinny by the end of it. And I wasn't and I hadn't even lost a lot of muscle mass, but I had lost, I had, I did gain fat and I was just like, what the hell? This calorie in calorie out businesses are absolute rubbish. Speaker 3: (48:36) So you talked about genetics before, is it from the genetics testing you can really help people individualize what type of exercise is best for them. I've completely changed people's exercise routines based on their genetics. I had one, there was an 18 year old in Wellington who was doing bodybuilding and she was addicted to these damn gym bunnies on YouTube. And the more she exercise, the more her muscle tone got washed out and her eczema flared up for psoriasis rather flared up. We ran our genetics. I said, you need to exercise less and rest more because you over inflame, you over propagate and you under clear. Now she was addicted to exercise, which I called her out on as a former addict myself as an act to sugar and video games. Call her out on it and she, it was an uncomfortable conversation but she acquiesced. So she finally cut back on the overexercise and suddenly her muscle tone showed up. And along with the nutrition, the other things I worked with, their 10 pillars, the Sara psoriatic rashes on her arms went away. Now what she didn't do was follow my instruction, is to keep following up with me every month and instead she fell off the wagon because she got hypnotized by those damn gym. Bonnie's on YouTube and it all came back cause she started over-exercising again. And so then we just repeated the process and the, you know, Speaker 2: (49:55) Yeah. And we do something called IPI IPI genetics. So pH three 60 with an hour run coaching. And so when I, when I did that run for New Zealand and I realized that there's something wrong here, and we ended up later on getting into epigenetics and I changed, I found that my genes I'm should be doing, you know, boost training, high intensity interval training and dominantly combined with something like yoga and stuff to, to calm the adrenals. We not changed to that. Which I did for a little while religiously. I had, I lost all the way that I was carrying, which wasn't a huge amount that it was for me, you know, annoying. I got Federer. I felt better, I felt stronger. Now the only problem with that was in that I went too much into the extreme intensity. And then, you know, like once again, because I, because of the addiction that I have to over to exercise. And that is a constant battle that I still obviously face. So it's, it's, it's fascinating what you're saying. So the genes, your genes are, every person's genes are different, is what you're saying. And Speaker 3: (50:57) The combination, the combination of the gene variance is different. Speaker 2: (51:01) And, and, and so not everybody is going to react the same. And as coaches, we find that too that you can give two people the same exercise, the same food, the same thing and one will have the results and the other one won't because their genes are very much a difference. Speaker 3: (51:17) Correct. Yeah. So there's, there's not all weight. Not all weight is caloric weight. A lot of it can be inflammatory weight based on lifestyle, based on your genetic combination. So, and then if you've got these other things that can combine, like for example, if men, the more they exercise, the fatter they get and they start developing gynecomastia or colloquially man boobs. When I run genetics tests on that, not only did they have the same inflammation initiation over propagation and poor under clearing of inflammation, they also had issues in their liver and their inability to clear estrogen. So what happens when you combined inflammatory weight gain with hormonal redistribution from excessive estrogen? You get man. Yep. So put, put these gentlemen on an anti inflammatory anti Zino estrogen diet and lifestyle and nutritional program and then they can wait and inflammation. And pain the man boobs go away like it. Speaker 3: (52:15) We have to check the genetics to really get clear on what the required lifestyle and what the dosages you might need people, but like some people have a multiples higher need for certain nutrients because of the genetic issues. Like nutrition is not about like I'm going to take this thing as it says on the label. No, if you're genetically, so if you're genetically have a, you know, very unfavorable variants, you may need multiples more, which is why you need a clinician to actually help you interpret this because not just like not everyone responds the same way to exercise. Not everyone responds the same way to nutrition the exact exact same mission. Speaker 2: (52:54) So true. So true. And yeah, but that's, that's really fascinating and we are exposed to so many Xeno estrogens now that Speaker 3: (53:01) Yeah, that's part of the toxins. Yeah. That's part pillar number five is biotoxins and this isn't, this pill is unfortunately just growing day by day with the amount of exposure and volume of toxins. And it can be, it can be everything from cigarette smoke to heavy metals. As you know, estrogens to Petros to sprays to offgassing of carpets, paints, you know, rugs, new cars or or old cars or whatever it is, preservatives in the foods and wherever you can imagine this one's really tough and the real, the thing that people need to do is not go on a detox. That's not what they need to do because you don't have your other nine pillars in place. Detox can hurt you. It's, I've heard myself doing cleanses prematurely. That's very difficult for the body to cleanse. It's requires a lot working your guts gotta work, your adrenals gotta work. Speaker 3: (53:48) You've got to have the right nutrition, you've got to be able to sleep like this. All these other things that have to be put in place. And like the number one things that people can do is like just start eating real food. Just avoid toxic exposure and start eating real food. There are functional tests out there like a mitochondria tests that I run that has checks for six of the liver pathways and, and you want to make sure your pathways are working before you start detoxing. Cause if you don't then you create backlogs and then the toxins get re circulated and get into the organ systems and con all sorts of problems. Same thing with heavy metals. Like a lot of people freak out over heavy metals and really premature. They should focus on helping the other 10 pillars of health first. Well there are nine pillars, then focus on detox, then you've got pillar number six is bionutrients. Speaker 3: (54:38) This is all of nutrition. Again, very controversial subject. Everything you put in your body that you need. Fatty acids, amino acids you know, proteins, vitamins, minerals and I also put oxygen and sunlight, which is one of the real benefits of getting out there to jogging or sprinting or walking is that you do get some line in oxygen and that's real. And it's like I said, like if people are so committed to their marathon addiction, there's ways to mitigate the damage. You know, by doing the walk, sprint, walk, sprint. And they can also focus into the nine pillars. Talk around stuff out, like what you described as balancing out with muscle building. Like, that's, that's what I teach people who will not let go of marathoning when it's clearly gone through far. Yeah. And you just, it's a reality. Like people will do what they do. Speaker 3: (55:26) So it's like, okay, let's just mitigate this, you know, let's, let's adapt this to your situation. There's lots of stuff that you can do to check for diet. Like you can actually do a genetic test to check to see what your carb tolerance is. Are you suited for Quito, paleo Mediterranean or high carb? You can actually genetically test this like it's called carb choice again by fishing's. Like I lecture on this at the [inaudible] conferences like this is, this is one of my absolute favorite functional tests out there. Completely changed my, I've been teaching diet for 15 years and, and this thing utterly changed my diet for the better. I wish I'd found this out 20 years ago. So all these, this controversy over diet again, you can just do a cheek swab and figure it out. This other technology, again, functional medicine, the best of Western medical diagnostics, this is one of them. Speaker 3: (56:16) Genetic testing is one of those diagnostics. And then you use the natural medicine lifestyle interventions to actually change your life for the better. For the longterm seventh pillar is breakfast, which is really about breakfast and routines and habits. Cause I found the majority of my chronically unwell clients and patients, they had crap breakfasts. And so that was my first ebook, which people can still get for free off my website. It's, they had bad breakfast and I found the fastest way to get people to feel better was to fix their breakfast. And I also realized it was about routines, like when some of the sickest people I've ever worked with in my life where shift work nurses, shift work nurses, the single most unwell class of people I've ever met in the broad population of sure like coal miners that are diving into like the depths of like those of course that they're extreme. Speaker 3: (57:10) I'm talking about like in the global population, there's so many nurses or five of this shift work. Yeah, just it throws them all off like their cortisol system. We talked about my cortisol tests here. You do general tests for rhythms. The bothers is as a pillar for stress. All forms, whether that's dealing with a sick relative or it's you know, cluttered like Marie Kondo and her life changing magic of tidying up book like that, that's hitting gangbusters cause clutter is a stress, financial stress, emotional stress, relationship, stress, spiritual stress, societal stress and too much news is a stressor. Overwhelmed. Just all these things that this is one of the four pillars that can be sledgehammered bugs or hidden infections. And mold is another one of the pillars that can be sludge and massive food poisoning or a massive tropical inflection. That's, that's your pillar. Speaker 3: (58:04) Being sledgehammer can take you down a massive stressor like losing a loved one or losing a job or divorce or a move or something significant. Or like your house, you know, your house having a collapse or a storm that destroys something that's a sledgehammer to your pillar. The other sledgehammers are the biotoxins. You get massively exposed to something acute that can sledgehammer you. The other one is the third pillar of the body pill. You've a massive accident. The car accident or violence or whatever it is, or horse fall, that's a Slack. That can be a sledgehammer. So the four pillars can be sledgehammer, infections, stress, toxins and physical accident. All the rest almost always are crumble. Like you don't get chronically and well from mission. One night of sleep you do. A few of the other nine pillars have been crumbling chronically for the long term. Speaker 3: (58:58) And that was the proverbial straw on the camel's back. Yup. So you got them in the 10th pillar is bedtime, which is sleep. So these, these are the 10 pillars and the 10 pillars are, they're designed to they're designed to help round out people's learning and implement. More importantly, the implementation of natural health. Most people get really fixated on one, two, three pillars, and they think that that's health. And that is simply untrue. It's partial and it's all about exercise. No, it's all about diet. No, it's all about the mind. I'm like, yes. And there's seven other things. You've got to look at it. And, and people are chronically unwell or they, they don't understand what's happening. They have to look, get to the rest of the pillars. There's something missing if you're talking about brain rehab, how do you rehab a brain 10 pillars. Speaker 3: (59:57) That's how you rehab a brain. And some pillars are usually more important than others in certain certain respects. Like for brain rehabs, sleep is super important, like it's important for everybody, but sleep is real important. A deep sleep, particularly looking at putting them on, usually like intermittent fasting or ketogenic diet is a really useful therapeutic tool. Even if it's temporary to help put rebuild mitochondria basically focusing on mitochondrial regrowth high intensity, it's safe, high intensity interval training would really help, you know, cause if there's growth hormone involved, the two best ways you get growth hormone naturally as high intensity interval training and deep sleep. Okay. There's brain-based nutrients like getting like the, the mitochondria profiles all help with that. Understanding genetics and quenching inflammation is really important. This, this is where things get really nuanced, seen individual. But Speaker 2: (01:00:55) Yeah, this is an area that obviously I'm super interested in with mum and trying to get the optimum out of her brain. Antibody. Obviously, Speaker 3: (01:01:04) Yeah. And then there's brain-based exercises, like there's specific, that's where things like a functional neurologist comes in. Yup. There are functional neurologists in New Zealand, there's three last time I checked, but there's, there are people who are trained to actually help assess what type of exercises you need to help activate certain regions of the brain that need activation. Because in order to rebuild the brain you need to provide and the nutrition and the background physiology like of, of the hormone system and growth hormone and all this other stuff, then you need to activate the part of the brain that needs activating. More importantly, the part of the brain that proceeds the area of the part of the brain that needs activating. So you have like it, it builds it up. In fact, one way, one way to Speaker 2: (01:01:54) Sorry about that guys. It's typical isn't it? It would just keep going. I'm sure that got away in a minute. So maybe it's a calling show, maybe that's [inaudible] give a call and podcasts chain it off on the internet and stuff. So Speaker 3: (01:02:14) If people want to understand the brain in very simplistically, but very accurately, the develops from the back forward, from the bottom up, from the middle out. So where's the most primitive part of the brain? The brain STEM. It's the farthest down. It's the farthest back and it's the most midline. What's the most advanced parts of the human brain? The far side of the frontal. Like the front, outer, upper part, like speech. Okay. So if you're going to rehab a brain, you do the exercises from the bottom up, from the middle out, from the back to the front because then you build the foundational because the, the up, the frontal lobes are very fragile. They need to have a stable platform of all the other structures of the brain beneath it and behind it and below it in order to sustain the plastic changes. Yes. Speaker 2: (01:03:05) The first part that goes isn't it? Whenever you have a stress response or when you're, you know, like I've noticed with mum whenever anything like heat you can't tolerate heat. Cause their temperature regulation is mucked up and frontal lobes shut down for the ones who have been to description cause she can't function as well as soon as she eithe

If you are going to attract and keep the best talent, what does your company actually stand for? There has been a growing shift in the importance of work culture. Pay, benefits, 401K, snacks in the break room have all become table stakes. Today’s guest on Little Left of Center is Chad Hickey, founder and CEO of Lucky Forks. Lucky Forks is an organization that helps companies implement a social responsibility strategy. We discussed the impact to companies’ bottom lines as well as what multiplying social good can do for a global impact. Also, Chad was super fun and smart!  Transcript below. Lucky Forks Instagram | LinkedIn | Facebook The New Voice of the Employee Podcast As for Little Left of Center, in addition to streaming on your favorite podcast app, these episodes are also broadcasting on DecaturFM and Salesforce Radio. If you haven’t hit subscribe yet, please make sure you do so you never miss an episode of these perspective shifting episodes. Leave a review. Share it with your friends and enemies. I’m also looking for sponsors for future episodes so feel free to follow me on the socials and hit me up. You can reach me by email, Instagram, or Facebook. Thank you so much for listening and I’ll see you next week! Allison Hare:                 00:05               Hey, I'm Alison Hare and welcome to little left of center, the podcast that interviews culture changers that are reshaping our world and breaking new ground. If you're going to attract and keep the best talent, what does your company actually stand for? You may have noticed a shift in the importance of work culture, pay benefits, 401k snacks in the break room. They've all become table stakes. And today's guest on little left of center is Chad a Hickey founder and CEO of lucky forks, lucky forks as an organization that helps companies implement a social responsibility strategy. We discussed the impact a company's bottom lines as well as what multiplying social good can do for a global impact. Also, Chad was super fun and smart. Please enjoy. So I am here today with Chad Hickey. He is the founder and the CEO. Is that right? Are you the CEO? Chad Hickey:                01:07               Yes, that's correct. Allison Hare:                 01:08               Of lucky forks. Lucky forks is a social responsibilities service. And I am so thankful not only to have you on the podcast, but it's so funny because I think that the social responsibility that corporations are now I'm starting to think about is kind of like when you are thinking about buying a Jeep or you buy a Jeep and then all of a sudden you see Jeeps everywhere. And and it's funny cause as I was preparing for this interview, I met this woman in Atlanta. So Chad is in New York city, but I met this woman in Atlanta who has a similar organization called social measures. And I thought, you know what, it is the thing, it is a thing. So I want to hear yeah. But I want to hear more from you to tell me more about, about you and how this came about. Chad Hickey:                01:59               Yeah. So you know, I've been in the advertising space for the past 17 years primarily in sales leadership. You know, started my career out in print that the Atlanta journal constitution. So I know you're in Atlanta, so shout out. Yeah. Allison Hare:                 02:13               The AJC. Yes. Chad Hickey:                02:15               Yeah. So I'm, I started my career there. You know, move to New York with a startup, work in various different, you know, technology companies. But you know what, what I was, I think they, you know, as you go through your 20s and your thirties talking about how you land kind of on what I'm doing today, you know, as you go through that, it's a scenario where you learn a lot of things of like what you want out of life and what you don't want out of life. And what I ended up doing was just realizing at one point when was I the most happiest in my career and I kept going back to different experiences that I had where I was doing something socially impactful. And I was lucky enough to work for a company who had, you know, a social responsibility strategy. Chad Hickey:                03:01               And I saw what that did for the organization. I saw what I did for employees, I saw what it did for the culture, those sorts of things. And so when I was saying, you know, what do I want, you know, as I go into my forties, because I'm not a spring chicken anymore, I go into my forties, you know, what do I really, what do I really want? You know, it wasn't necessarily about chasing the paycheck anymore. It was more about like doing something that made me happy. So that was where I landed when it came to social responsibility is it was really that was the catalyst and then it started to spiral into other things. To your point, like doing research on, you know, products that are socially responsible, but then also just the workforce change that's happening with gen Z because there is, I think such a fundamental shift happening that people aren't paying attention to where people want more. You have a generation coming into the workforce that will be 24% of the workforce next year and that's gen Z. You know, that's always grown up with school shootings and social media and they just think completely different. They, I actually get a panel had advertising week this week with a gen Z and I asked them to use words that describe themselves and one of the words that they used was entitled and abs first. Yeah, yeah. And so you probably have a, a reaction like Ooh, kind of a negative Allison Hare:                 04:27               Yes. Chad Hickey:                04:28               To describe yourself. But after thinking about that conversation, you know, what they were really saying is I'm worthy. You know what I mean? And they were saying, I am worthy to have a good clean environment. I am worthy to have a workplace that gives me in a work life balance, I am worthy to work at a company that shares my values and respects me as an individual. And I thought it was just so powerful that that was one the way they defined it and to just how they think so differently. But I mean it will be the largest transfer of wealth the next 10 years. In 10 years, gen Z will represent 75% of the workforce. And I just don't think that employ, like employers are paying attention to how fundamentally different they are. So that that's, you know, a long answer to how I landed on the company. Lucky forks. But you know, it kind of encompasses all of that of getting these companies ready. Allison Hare:                 05:22               And I thought what was interesting is I listen to your, your, I think it was the first episode of your podcast. What's the name of your podcast again? Chad Hickey:                05:30               It is the, the new voice of the employee, Allison Hare:                 05:33               The new voice of the employee. And I was kind of stopped dead in my tracks because I never thought of it this way, but you and a guest were talking about about kind of what the, the playing field is like when you're looking for a job. So whether it is gen Z, gen Y millennial, whether it's whoever is that you, what I remember about looking for a job is you want to make sure that there are good benefits. There's 401k, there's some security there, a ping pong tables, NYSE maybe that they have snacks in a kitchen, but I think that the point was those are table stakes now that when people are looking for a career, they want something that that the culture is going to fit them. And even when I, you know, like I've, I've worked for Salesforce, so Salesforce is real. Like we have social responsibility embedded in our culture and you know, even if I get hit up all the time by recruiters and I always, you know, think about, well, what if I were to go somewhere else? And the culture ; nothing beats the culture of Salesforce. And so I'm wondering from your perspective, why is social responsibility from a corporation so important to their bottom line? Chad Hickey:                06:52               Yeah, because it, it says that you care beyond profitability. I mean, if you look at what happened with the business round table in the 181 CEOs that, that came out and said, look, it's about the stake holder, not just the shareholder anymore. I mean, that was a very powerful statement, fundamentally different from anything that's ever been done in business. And I think that, you know, from that perspective, you know, these, these companies, it doesn't matter if you can play ping pong if you don't have a planet to live on in 30 years, you know what I mean? I don't care if you're like catering my lunch. Yes. To your point it is table stakes. And I'm not saying those things aren't noticed and they don't help, you know, gain an edge or get an employee, you know, in the walls of your organization. But it isn't the differentiator anymore. Chad Hickey:                07:40               And I don't even think having a social responsibility strategies should be used as a differentiation. It should be used as a responsibility. I mean, these companies have a responsibility because you know, there's a fundamental erosion of trust in the institutions that we could depend on in the past government, church, whatever. You know, people do not feel the same level of trust that they, that they have in the past. And so they are looking to their employer to say, listen, help me and build, build a future for me. You know what I mean? Or I'm not going to spend, you know, two thirds of my time at this job. And I think that's a very fair thing to, to expect. Allison Hare:                 08:22               Yeah, I think there's a cultural shift that has happened all across where people are looking at, where do I spend my dollars, where do I spend my time? Or is it going to be where my dollar is, my time, my resources, my intention is going to go to someplace that's going to be doing good. So whether it's things like Warby Parker and Toms and companies that are and even hanky panky, the panties company, you know, there, there are a lot of there are a lot of incredible stories that are going going along there and people have a lot more choices, which is some of the benefits of having a strong economy. And like I said, I work for Salesforce and a company that puts social responsibility in its forefront. But I find that, and again, I'm in the South, so I'm in sales, so I work with a lot of organizations that their companies tend to be stuck in a less socially responsible mindset. So how do you find companies that you work with? Are you looking at companies that are, you know, kind of moving in that space? Or how do you inspire companies that may not have thought that way? Tell me about your strategy for infiltration. Yeah, Chad Hickey:                09:36               No, it's a great, it's a great question. So we primarily focus on well there's two kind of answers to that question. One, we've, we primarily focus on companies within the advertising and tech space. And the reason why we do that is I believe the advertising and technology space can change the world for the better more than any other industry in business. And the reason why I believe that is because from a technology standpoint, we are changing the way people behave on a daily basis. Uber has changed the way we get from point a to point B. Amazon has changed the way we shop. Like we are fundamentally changing consumer behavior. And for you to think that that will not apply to the way that we volunteer or the way that we interact with nonprofits, you know, is just not realistic, you know? And so how do we make those companies realize that nonprofits out there cannot spend money on technology and they cannot stand, spend money on marketing, right? Chad Hickey:                10:40               Because they have to put as many dollars to the, the mission as they can. And so it's what we do every day, right? Like we are constantly focused on those two things. And so they need us as an industry to bring them along. And so I think getting into these organizations and talking to them about that and making sure that they understand that, listen, it's great that you went and planted a tree or it's great that you donated to, you know, this, this homeless shelter. And I'm not saying that you should not do that to be clear, but I do think that you need to authentically work, like lean into what you do on a daily basis as a company to see how you can amplify social good. So that's the first thing. The second thing that you know, when we're prospecting for companies is when I got into the location space in 2012, it really what I'm going through right now reminds me of that time because we were really building and evangelizing the importance of location. Chad Hickey:                11:41               The idea that, you know, where you went in the physical world, said something about you was still pretty new for most people. Right? And so we were out there kind of, you know, the company I was working at the time, which was ground truth. It was formerly known as X ad. You know, we were really changing the mindset and getting people to think a different way. And this past year of launching lucky forks and talking to people about social responsibility, it has reminded me so much of that experience because, and, and I'm thankful for that experience because it's made me realize that you have to meet people where they are. You cannot expect to walk into an organization that has no sort of strategy around social responsibility and say, you know what, you've got to have these policies and programs. You've got to have seven volunteer days, you've got to do all these different things. Chad Hickey:                12:31               It will overwhelm people. And so you've got to speak to them in a way that one I think doesn't feel overwhelming, but then two meets them where they are so that they see it and they feel it. And then they start to understand that. And time and time again, you know, when we work with companies now the first time they have an experience, one of the common comments we get is people will say, I get it now. Like I totally see how we can impact society. And so it's, it's understanding that process and respecting that process. And knowing that, you know, to your point, I'm probably 99% of the time walking into a company that probably doesn't understand its value, meaning the value of social good at the level that they can fully impacted. And so I've got to evangelize and educate that and bring that along the journey. Allison Hare:                 13:24               And I love what you said about it can be very overwhelming. Cause I, I thought about that too. There are so many causes to support. How do you help a corporation narrowed down how to help and what will make the most impact, as I imagine it's probably, you can go so many different ways. Like how do you, how do you narrow it down for them? How do you help them find what's, what works? Chad Hickey:                13:45               No, that's a, that's a really great question. I think it starts with their values. One and, and then two, it starts with who they are, like what they have to offer. And then three, it starts with, you know, what they are in the start, but you know, it is what their employees care about. You know, and I think that if you get those three things you know, at a basic level, you're gonna get, you know, to a strategy that can resonate. But you know, I think people try to boil the ocean a lot where they're like, Oh, you know what, it's so overwhelming. And, and in the company's defense the profits, you know, for lack of, you know, ill intention, you know, they, they are not the easiest to to work with because they're just trying to keep their head above water. Chad Hickey:                14:34               They are running with really lean staff. They don't have time to, you know, answer an email like in 30 minutes. And so, you know, I think a lot of companies kind of get frustrated, you know, with that process and that's understandable. But you know, when you start with the values, you've, you really from the values perspective, what nonprofit aligns with your values and then you dig into really what do they need? They may say, Hey, I need money. But you realize that they really have no sort of infrastructure or system to know when to reengage their donors. Then maybe you have the data and the technology to help them do that. You know what I mean? And so then there's a much more authentic connection between what your company does and then what that nonprofit needs from a corporate partnership perspective. But the, the thing that we say is, listen, social responsibility is not a volunteer day. Chad Hickey:                15:27               You do not go and you know what I love, I'm just going to make it up, habitat for humanity and I'm going to go and volunteer at habitat for humanity and now I am a socially responsible company. That's not how it works. That is, I am a company that has these values. I've found this nonprofit that I'm going to have a longterm partnership with and we are going to help each other and you know, help get to a common mission I think is the, the right way to do it. And then to understand that you've got to create smaller pads for your employees to plug in if they're not passionate about the one or two things that, or your corporation chooses, whether that be volunteer time off or some sort of matching program. So that they have their own personal outlets to then engage and connect. Allison Hare:                 16:15               So do you feel like companies typically do have their values established or is part of your service kind of flushing out what those might be? Chad Hickey:                16:24               Yeah. so that's a good question. I'm, I'm sometimes surprised, you know, when we have conversations, not necessarily that the companies don't know their values, but that Allison Hare:                 16:38               Are they clearly defined. Chad Hickey:                16:40               Yeah. Or there's too many of them or they just can't recite them, you know? I've worked in companies where the values were like drilled in our heads, you know what I mean? And so people would say, what's your values? And it was like, you rambled off. Right. And so I'm always a little surprised when I am, you know, meeting with a company and I say, you know, what are your values? And the people go, Oh, what was it again? What's the five words? Or, or you get into a company where maybe there's like 12 or 15 values and it's like so overwhelming that no one could really remember all of them, but you know what I mean? And so it is helping them kind of narrow that down and really engage the employees to say, what does the employees really care about and how do they describe the organization? And then how does that overall value definition get constructed? Allison Hare:                 17:32               So, and that makes sense to me. And he, you kind of touched on this a little bit, but this is kind of a burning question for me. Do you think that it is important for corporations to take a political stance because when it comes to valuers social, a lot of it so intertwined but so incredibly loaded, you know, when it emotionally loaded. So, you know, what are your thoughts on that? Is that important? Is that part of the strategic direction that you guys can offer? Chad Hickey:                18:02               Yeah, I think that the no longer is it as much of a faux pas to take a political stance where if you would've asked me this three years ago, you know, was recently that I probably would've been like, Oh, you know, like, stay away from certain issues. I think that if you authentically can connect the values of your company with a controversial topic that you want to get behindthat is when I feel like people are much more accommodating then, you just taking a stance to, to take a stance. And I think that you have to be, you know, if you're going to take a stance like that, you do have to be able to explain why. And we have a partner if you are listening to the podcast Teeds that partnered with planned Parenthood or put out, you know, with some other companies like full page ad in the New York times. And I asked that same question. I said, you know, what was there any sort of negative impact of that? And there wasn't because their organization really cares about the diversity and inclusion of all the people within their organizations. So it very much aligned with what their employees care about and they did not see any negative impact from it. Allison Hare:                 19:12               That's what I figured. That's what I figured. And Chad Hickey:                19:16               For a thing, it's a different way for people to wrap their heads around. It's fairly, it's, Allison Hare:                 19:20               This is so new too. Yeah. Chad Hickey:                19:23               Yeah. It's very understandable, you know, for companies to kind of go, Oh, you know, like what, where is the line and what am I going to step over it? Allison Hare:                 19:31               It's kind of like you can, it's not something that you dip your toe in. You kind of have to jump in, you know, if you're going to take a stance that like that. So whether it's political, whether it is a controversial social issue there's so much importance to that too. Yeah. And I'm, I'm curious about hiring practices. So from a cultural perspective, you've got organizations that are, are defining their values, they are defining social responsibility. What is your take, do you feel like companies that you hire to fit a culture or do you hire, do we expand what the culture could be? Chad Hickey:                20:11               Ooh, I love this question. You know what? I one time was interviewing a candidate at a, at a former company, and she said to me, she goes, I want to see not how you're a cultural fit, but how you're a cultural ad. And I love that, right? Like, if you were constantly trying to fit within an organization your organization doesn't evolve, you know, and I, I to to your point, I think that looks, there have to be fundamental values that you align. And one of the things that came out of the panel that one of the panelists said that I thought was super interesting because I said, at what point where do you draw the line that if your employer does something that you say, this is fundamentally against my values and I need to look for another job because you hear so many things around gen Z specifically, you know, really wanting to work for companies like that. And the answer was, you know, when it starts to impact who I am as an individual, you know, and so I think as an organization, as long as you can, you know, continue to you know, allow people to be individuals, you fundamentally stay within the bounds of who your organization is, but you continue to have that flexibility to evolve with different people. I think that's the strategy to take. Allison Hare:                 21:36               I love that. And it's funny cause I heard that question being posed or at least that concept being posed on masters of scale. And I wonder when so much talk is around culture. How do you find the right people? And I think it's interesting. So lucky forks, where did the name come from? And my second part is do good. Be ready. Is your tagline be ready for what? So tell me about your name. My mind is just going like, be ready for what? Speaker 4:                    22:07               Yeah, Chad Hickey:                22:09               I am not, look, while I'm serious about the value we bring to the industry, I am for people who know me also know I'm a pretty I, I liked to play practical jokes. I'm a, I'm a pretty you know, I'm not a super, super serious person. Allison Hare:                 22:25               I heard you do a great version of the Arkansas fight song. I might ask you to do it later. Speaker 4:                    22:31               Oh, Julie Stewart, Allison Hare:                 22:32               Julie Stewart. Speaker 4:                    22:35               But maybe, maybe that is true. But anyway Chad Hickey:                22:40               So you know, from now you've made me forget what the question was. Allison Hare:                 22:43               It was lucky for it, like the meaning of lucky forks and then do good, be ready. Chad Hickey:                22:48               Yeah. Yeah. I was like, Oh God, I started picturing myself in my head. But anyway, Speaker 4:                    22:52               So Chad Hickey:                22:54               You know, I wanted something playful. I didn't want something super serious. Walk is something that brings good fortune, but out of a lack of preparation. And I feel like a lot of the companies are not prepared for this fundamental shift. So that was the luck piece. And then a fork is about a fork in the road. I think it w it's, it was about a fork in the road for me personally to choose, you know, what I wanted to do rather than it just be about money. And then you know, also a fork in the road for these companies. And then a fork is a tool to, you know what I mean, that that feeds some sort of need. And so there were several different things that kind of kept bringing me to those, those two words. And I kind of liked the lightheartedness and ambiguousness of it because when we meet with people, a lot of people will ask that question. Chad Hickey:                23:42               So which is understandable. And then from do be ready, I mean obviously do good is pretty self explanatory, but be ready is, you know, speaking to our clients, like this is not a trend. It's not a fad. This is something that is what I tell people is think about it. Like when you used to go into offices and that they were all closed door offices and really high cubicle walls, you know, and it was just, you would, if you walked into an office in that way today, it would feel stiff or like an outdated culture. Right. That was probably the impression you would have, especially in advertising and tech. And what I, what I say to people is this next workforce shift is not as tangible as that. It's more of a feeling that it is something that visual and people are feeling it. Everyone's feeling it because I, I talked to people and they'll say, something just isn't connecting anymore. Or, you know, I'm not curing cancer with what I'm doing with my job. And it's more than just feeling this intangible workforce change evolution that's happening. And so that's the best way that I've been able to think about it in my mind of change. But the change is emotional. The changes you know, more spiritual or something that's not tangible, if that makes sense. Allison Hare:                 25:06               It does make sense. And I feel like that's happening all over the place where even how this my podcast little left of center has started is how can I do more and how can I be of service? How can I serve as kind of what I, I'm constantly asked myself, how can I serve? And so, and that kind of plays along with your concept of do good, be ready. Tell me about, give me five. Chad Hickey:                25:31               Yeah. So give me five. So, so here's what I'll say, kind of just piggybacking on what you, what you just said and then I'll get him to GiveMe5 is I completely agree and I think that where people overcomplicate it is they think that,uthat being of service has to the like I'm out there planting trees or building a house or whatever. And I, I just fundamentally don't believe that, you know, I think if you talk to any of my friends, I've never been a big like person out there volunteering or that sort of thing. You know what I mean? And so I don't claim to be, but I do think that as business people, you know, we have a responsibility to take those skillsets and see how we can amplify social good from that perspective. You know what I'm saying? I think that you've got to find where you're comfortable with giving back, whether that's just by making donations cause you're a busy person and that's okay. Chad Hickey:                26:27               And that was kind of where I always went, you know, in my direction was more just like in a monetary sense. But you know, kind of landing on one, giving herself that flexibility to really land on what your skill set is, but then to you know, really think about what makes you happy. So I just wanted to say that from a, from a GiveMe5 perspective kind of going into what do you know with, you know, by previous comment, what I knew was how to, how to run sales teams, right? Going into this, you know, I've been a part of the company who did the social responsibility program, but I was like, I know how much money is spent by entertaining clients. You know, there's, in our industry, there's a lot of fancy dinners, there is a lot of baseball games or concerts. Chad Hickey:                27:17               There's buying jeans and all kinds of stuff. Right? And what I'm sort of thinking about, you know, was how much money was wasted or, or not used in a fully beneficial way. And if there was a way to get a company to think about taking 5% of that budget, not necessarily finding new budget, but taking 5% of the budget they already have and utilizing that budget more for social impact and for ways that could actually be entertainment that gave back to community. So maybe instead of the really fancy dinner where you have three or four glasses of wine and forget what you talked about after the [inaudible] or that's what happened to me, Allison Hare:                 28:00               What it was, Chad Hickey:                28:01               Why not take that client out and do something in the community that and use that money that to actually give back. And so that's how GiveMe5 got started. And what I'll say is that the response from the advertising and tech community has been so strong that, you know, we launched that initiative April 1st Allison Hare:                 28:21               Because it's really a challenge to other organizations, isn't it? Chad Hickey:                28:24               You know, it is, it's, I say it's an awareness initiatives because it's really about the message, you know? Yes, it is this target of 5%. And it is a challenge because it's a challenge to think differently. But you know, it is, it's also to raise awareness. I had, you know, an agency CEO you know, say to me, look, we have had to put policies and programs in place because of the ways that we are perceived to be entertained. And he said, you are basically saying would give me five, you know, what we can entertain but do it in ways that actually give back to community so that it's more benefiting the public than it is about benefiting us through some sort of like, you know, more materialistic experience. And so so, so that, that was how it took shape. And you know, I'm happy to say that, you know, in seven months we've had, you know, 14 companies sign up and we have more coming on board. We already have people that are committed into 20, 20. And so, you know, and it's, it's, it's companies like Spotify and Hulu and you know, Outfront media that, you know, they have their own social responsibility arms, but they're saying, we believe in what this message is saying to our industry. Allison Hare:                 29:40               This like a utopian state. It sounds amazing to be able to do that. And even when you were talking before about the agencies or the companies that have the high cubicles and the closed doors, it really is like hierarchy versus collaborative level playing field, which I think is where companies are, are moving towards instead of just, you know, like the hierarchical ARCA goal. The little people don't matter. The big people do trivial. What is it, trivial many vital few where it seems like it's much more level playing field where everybody contributes in a way that's impactful, that's meaningful. So I can't see a loss in that, you know, why people would say no, which brings me to my next question is how do you, how do you measure success? What does success look like to you? Chad Hickey:                30:31               You know, success from, I feel success out of the response I see from people who have a volunteer day with us or you know, our Q3 giving five event. We funded a full year's worth of projects for a school in the lower East side and a silver, a school that is in the lower East side. And the principal and teachers came to our event and talked about for the first time they had iPads and computers and all of these things that they hadn't been able to, you know, afford previously. And we were able to partner with donors choose to at work, which is an amazing nonprofit. If people are not aware of it and fund those projects. And I think it's those, those moments that, you know you start to see your impact. And I think those companies felt their impact. But I will say, you know, being more high level from a lucky forks perspective is it is where the, the mission of the company is. His goal is to create social impact out of the budgets you already have and the time you already spend as an organization. Allison Hare:                 31:45               So it's just re-purposing. It's just repurposing. Chad Hickey:                31:49               It is, it's, it's saying guys, I'm not asking you to do different things. I'm asking, well, the only thing I'm asking to do differently is to think differently. You know what I mean? I'm not asking you to go find different money. I'm not asking you to change a behavior. I'm asking you to think differently about how you act currently and do it in a really easy way. You know what I mean? That actually when you take one company that then becomes five companies, that then becomes 14 companies that really starts to add up and can do some great social impact. And so so, so that's, that's kind of where I've measured success is watching that growth. Allison Hare:                 32:31               Oh, that's so cool. And I'm wondering, you focused on advertising and technology companies, are there plans go outside of that? Chad Hickey:                32:41               You know what? Yes. so we definitely have some plans to expand that with some different projects that I won't speak about right now cause Allison Hare:                 32:50               They're in the works. It's embark. Chad Hickey:                32:52               Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well there's a definitely a focus from everyone, you know, within the team of how do we scale our social impact and how do we find those things that, that can scale very easily and make a really massive impact. And I know that's very ambiguous, but you know, at, at my core, I am a technology person. I have worked in companies where I like data and I like to think about how you impact as many people as possible. So that's always been a goal. So the events, the experiences, all that will remain very fundamental. But I think in 2020, what people will see is that we take it to the next level to say, okay, how do we really maximize impact in a, in a more technological way. Allison Hare:                 33:42               Oh, that's so cool. And I'm wondering, Chad Hickey:                33:45               It's cool. And you don't even know what it is. Allison Hare:                 33:47               I don't even know. Well, it sounds like you're, you're expanding. So that's, that's important too. And it takes a lot of work. It's hard work to launch and run a business like you're doing. What do you do for fun? I know that. So I don't know if I, I don't think I mentioned this before, but my good friend Dooley's steward had texted maintenance. Like, you've got to talk to Chad to Hickey. He is just so up your alley. You've got to talk to him. He's amazing. And so that's how that's how I came to find you. But Dooley told me that you're really great at karaoke. Speaker 4:                    34:22               What do you do outside of work? Did this just sit there? Probably if she, when she listens to this is, I can hear her cackling, but so I do love karaoke. Ain't no way, but I read the Franklin is my go to song. Allison Hare:                 34:38               These boots are made for walking. Speaker 4:                    34:40               Well, you know what, maybe we'll sing together sometime. Chad Hickey:                34:44               You know what, I really love to travel. And, and then outside of that, I mean I could be much better about having a personal life. I think that, look, when you find something that you feel really inspired by and you you know, like you, it doesn't feel like work, if that makes sense. I probably spend a little too much time doing that, but I like it, you know, and so I don't really see that as a negative. Allison Hare:                 35:13               Where do you like to travel? Where is your favorite place? Chad Hickey:                35:15               Oh, Lake Como, Italy by far. So Speaker 4:                    35:21               Hanging out with little league budget anymore when I'm building a company. But yes. Chad Hickey:                35:25               I've been there twice now and that was actually a fundamental spot that, that made me land on the idea of doing, you know, my own company as I was at a, at a hotel there, and I was relaxing and I was traveling alone for the first time ever. And I was reading the book, the subtle art of not giving a sock. If people haven't read it, you definitely should. Yeah, Allison Hare:                 35:47               I think it's hilarious. Yeah. Chad Hickey:                35:49               Yeah. When you listen to the guy, you're like, Whoa, okay. But, but, you know, there's a part of the book that says, what are you feeling to, or what are you willing to feel pain for? And like, I sat straight up when I'd never thought of it that way. You know what I mean? Because look, I, you know, for us in my thirties had had really good jobs that allowed me to be really comfortable financially and I really just wasted a lot of money, you know what I mean? And I didn't know a thing, meaning to media. I didn't do anything meaningful with it, you know, and so it really came down to, for me and my pain point was, you know, are you willing to go back to living on a budget and you know, cooking at home and all those things that I wasn't necessarily doing a lot of if you feel strongly enough that this company, you know, solves a need in the market. And so that's where I just kept going back to that one question. As I really land on, you know, taking the leap and forming the company Allison Hare:                 36:50               And I love that too. And I can relate to that. Like I think when you love what you do, when you're passionate, when you feel like you're serving a purpose, you love it. You know, like you can't wait to do more of it cause it you, you can see the ripple effect of your impact. And I don't know that there's anything more intoxicating than that then knowing what you're doing is making an impact Chad Hickey:                37:13               Well and taking on, you know, it taking a different form than what you've thought. You know, initially it was just to be consulting and going in and forming social responsibility programs for companies. And it's really taken on a much different meaning, you know, for me, one, you know, the first thing was really learning nonprofits and what they needed. But then too and it's been something recently, fairly recently that, you know, someone pointed out to me, I was having a conversation with someone who had listened to the first three episodes of the podcast and they said, it's really interesting to me how many people in advertising don't think they provide value. He goes, I've heard multiple times on your podcast. People say, well, I'm pushing ads or I am, I'm not, we're not curing cancer here. And I was like, I've heard that a million times by friends in the industry. Chad Hickey:                38:06               And what I think is interesting about that perspective that really like made the hairs on my arms stand up is when did we get to a point that we stopped understanding the power to influence culture in a positive way. I mean, people who are in advertising shape behaviors, that's what we do. You know what I'm saying? And so who are we to think that we provide no value? If we take that skillset and use it for purpose, that it can be so powerful. So yes, you may not be the doctor that's in the operating room curing the cancer, but you can at least raise awareness through messaging around nonprofits or causes that you can donate to that then will lead to curing the cancer. Do you know what I mean? We play a significant part in that. And so you know the, the, the piece that is like taking shape is making people understand how we can really impact community if we do it in the right way. The problem is, is that most companies aren't thinking about, Hey, it's what I do all the time. It doesn't have to be something else. Does that make sense? Allison Hare:                 39:15               Yes. I love that too. I hope more people, I hope a lot of people listen to those podcasts because I think it's, it's sparking so much for me and I could imagine it makes perfect sense, you know, for people that run businesses, what if they could do more? But with the resources they already have, just reallocating them, you know, and, and even being able to impact like that ripple effect. And I'm curious, what do you know that you wish people could learn Chad Hickey:                39:44               To decide how to think? Ain't no way Allison Hare:                 39:46               I want to hear it. Chad Hickey:                39:49               I think that it is like take what you know and don't overthink it and find a way to provide the impact that that plays on your skillset. You know what I mean? In that you don't have to do it the same way as everyone else. Like you don't have to be this person that has always been volunteer of the year or those sort of things that really hone in on those skill sets that can create the most impact in the way that feels the most comfortable to you. And you know, I think that just as valuable to me personally as like what the company is also doing. And so I think it's letting yourself go through that process and like stop fighting the current as Oprah would say, and go with the flow. I tell people all the time, I feel more in the float my life, as cheesy as that sounds in my eyes. Wanna roll back in my head. Allison Hare:                 40:43               Right. Chad Hickey:                40:44               I feel more in the flow of my life like then I probably ever have because I'm kind of just going with the flow, which anyone who knows me knows I'm not great at doing. I try to can be a control freak. So, but you know what I mean? It's like, and maybe that's what you know, I would say is do, do what you feel is the right thing and then everything else will hopefully work out. Allison Hare:                 41:09               Yeah. It sounds like it's something that is deep inside you is kind of emanating, you know, like you're kind of living your truth to get all Oprah on you. But yeah, like Chad Hickey:                41:21               I'm going to again, like I'm so not like, you know, a, again, have these conversations. I typically don't do it publicly. But you know, I'm sure it can sound cheesy to some people, but whatever that truth is or whatever that flow is, like find it and then don't put too much scrutiny on yourself to be a certain way. Do it in the best way that, you know, Allison Hare:                 41:40               I love that. I love that. So how can people contribute to your mission? What is the best way? So five listeners, maybe they're in New York, maybe they're in Atlanta, maybe there's somewhere else. How can people contribute? Chad Hickey:                41:51               Yeah, I think that, you know, if you're in the industries, you know, that we've talked about and you have a sales team and you understand the entertainment budgets that are used and they give me five initiative speaks to you, then we'd love to have companies be a part. If you're a company that you know, has done a couple of things but you haven't really formalized a full plan then we can help you. I think that if you have annual sales conferences or company conferences, we're going up to Canada and a couple of months to actually do an annual conference with an entire company. And we're bringing in 300 kids you know, with a different nonprofit, like we can help you from that perspective. And then if you're just interested in learning more about the company in general, then you know, I'm happy to take calls, you know, and, and to talk to people about a little bit more transparency on the, the longer term vision of the company. Allison Hare:                 42:43               Chad, you're doing such awesome things. I love this. How can people find you? What's the best way to read you? Chad Hickey:                42:49               Well, you know, by email, you know. Okay. We give them that out chat at [inaudible] dot com you can find us on LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, Twitter. And so, you know, we're pretty much on all the social channels, but you can email me directly. But those are the, those are the best ways. Allison Hare:                 43:06               So I'm wondering too, like how do you guys find the nonprofits or do they reach out to you too? Chad Hickey:                43:13               You know what? So we've spent a lot of time really vetting over 300 nonprofits ourselves. And we use different tools that are out there that we're, nonprofits are rated to see how much money actually goes to the mission and that sort of thing. But most of it is like that's doing our own research or word of mouth. We also have an office in the center for social innovation. And so that is almost like a social impact. We work for a lack of a better comparison and it is all companies and nonprofits and any sort of organization that has a social impact tie to it. And so we've been able to experience some, some really or, or meet some really great nonprofits also through just our office space too. So in fact, our Q4 event is a carnival for homeless children where we're partnering with a nonprofit called knock, knock, give a sock, which we met through our office and they were an amazing organization that does SOC drives for homeless people. And so we're going to be doing a holiday carnival with the companies that have taken the pledge and bring in 250 kids so that they get to experience something at the holiday. So Allison Hare:                 44:26               I love that and I love that employees get to be face to face with people that are facing challenge. I think based on my own experience, it's one thing to learn about it, but when you're kind of in the midst of it, it changes you in a way, in a good way, you know, in a more compassionate, empathetic way. So I love what you're doing. Chad. Thank you so much for, for your work and your impact for taking time with me. You are culture changers. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you Chad. I love tugging a chat. Hickey of lucky forks. I'm a little disappointed I wasn't able to get him to sing the Arkansas byte song during our chat, but I loved the impact. Lucky forks is ushering by helping companies define and execute their social strategy. I've linked to Zim foe in the show notes. As for a little left of center, in addition to streaming on your favorite podcast app, these podcasts are also broadcasting on Decatur rep them and sales force radio. If you haven't hit subscribe yet, please make sure you do so. You never miss an episode of these perspective shifting episodes, leave a review, share it with your friends and enemies. I'm also looking for sponsors for future episodes, so feel free to follow me on the socials and hit me up. Thank you so much for listening and I will see you next week.      

Why Dave Decided to talk to Tim Francis: For entrepreneurs, time is often one of the most valuable things you have. The more time you have the more money you are able to make, and Tim is here to help you get more of both. Tim asserts that he is able to charge $1,000/hour because he learned how to delegate his time with an assistant and then make better use of the time and money he bought back. Listen in for helpful tips on who you should hire and when you should as well. Tips and Tricks for You and Your Business: (1:41) Do You Know Tim’s 3 Tips for Hiring Assistants? (5:23) Tim charges $1,000/hour because he hired an assistant, it’s not the other way around (7:38) This is When HIRING an Assistant Starts to Help You Make More Money (10:16) Dave Had His Assistant Free Up His Time Through Email (13:08) Being the Surgeon in the Room for Your Business (18:16) You Are In Fact Worth It, Invest In Your Business So it Will Work For You (20:26) Tim Has Had to Master Delegations, Let Him Tell You (22:59) Tim had to teach what’s known as a “Hiring Funnel” Quotable Moments: (4:52) “One of the biggest problems we find is that you end up doing things that are not worth your time now or most importantly it prevents you from getting closer to where your biggest ROI is.” (8:36) “I generated so much extra time and money that I could actually afford to take higher level classes which then allowed to charge more for my services.” (17:04) “The amount that you can decline that 80-20 curve and spend your time in the top 10% of highest value activities happens real quick and it’s very exciting.” (22:52) “One of the biggest blind spots that entrepreneurs have is around opportunity-cost.” Other Tidbits: Hire within your timezone, it’s worth the penny pinching. Use a “Hiring Funnel” Important Episode Links:  GreatAssistant.com/ToolBox FunnelHackingLive.com FunnelHackerRadio.com FunnelHackerRadio.com/freetrial FunnelHackerRadio.com/dreamcar ---Transcript--- Speaker 1: 00:00 Hey everybody, welcome back to funnelhacker radio. This is going to be a lot of fun today. Uh, this is a topic that's super near and dear to my heart and I wanted to bring on Tim Francis to introduce kind of how this is all gonna work. So first and foremost, the May introduce you to our friend Mr Tim Francis. Good day. Great to be here. Thanks for having me Dave. So one thing I'm really excited about is helping people understand the importance of scaling and how to grow and build their businesses, especially as a solopreneur or a small small to middle sized business. One of the things we find is that people get so hung up on trying to figure out exactly what to do and how to do it and they, they spend too much time on the how instead of. The one thing that you could find out about tim is Tim, a company called great assistant.com and whole focus behind his business is helping people actually hire their own virtual assistant. Speaker 1: 00:49 And most importantly though to make sure that virtual assistant is here in North America. A couple different things that we're going to talk about as far as how and why, but to give you a little background, timps hired over 200 assistants and first clients and things and really what I want to make sure you guys understand is this whole idea as far as who, not how I'm going to go through that and just a few minutes, but again, want to allow him to say a few words here. Introduce himself. Anything I did not mention that you want to add, Tim, but by all means, please speak to our audience and let him know. Yes, Speaker 2: 01:18 thanks for having me. So for a. So the very first thing is I have three super quick tips that will help anyone when it comes to delegating. A number one is don't write everything out. Instead use something like [inaudible], which is a great tool to be able to capture desktop and share a link. Secondly is a don't use email to communicate with your internal team. Huge productivity killer. Instead, using a communication tool like slack, I actually don't like slack. In fact, I despise slack. I prefer a convo. And thirdly is everyone asks me, hey tim, you know, you've hired around the world, including in North America, what's the best value and what should I paint assistant? And so hands down, the best value I've found around the world is to hire an assistant in a similar or same time zone, similar same culture and same first language. Speaker 2: 02:09 So if you're in the United States or Canada, hire somebody from the United States or Canada, if you're in Australia, New Zealand, hire someone in Australia, New Zealand and 17 to 20 US dollars an hour. It gets the job done. We've, we've found former project managers from Coca Cola, a former administrator who took care of all the private jet travel for Merrill Lynch Executives, uh, my own assistant as a former legal, as a paralegal at a busy law firm in Indiana and get, you can get that caliber talent for, for 17 to $20 an hour if you're willing to allow them to work from home. So Speaker 1: 02:42 that's, uh, that's, that's like three quick tips, quick strategies that even if someone, if their iphone died and they stopped hearing this podcast because the Internet broke down, you got value in the first one, hundred and 20 seconds. How about that? I love it. That's exactly the kind of stuff I liked providing to our audience. So I want to of help you guys understand this is probably to come out right close to funnel hacking live or right after funnel hacking live. What are the main topics Russell's going to be spending a whole bunch of time talking about onstage is this concept of stop worrying about how to do stuff and focus more on the WHO. Uh, I'm going to do a special podcast after this in more detail about who, not how, but I want to give you guys just a few couple things here to understand. Speaker 1: 03:24 The biggest problem and the biggest hurdle that most of us have is, especially when we first get going, is we always try to figure it out. I just need to figure out how to do this. I don't, I can't afford to hire someone else. I can't afford to do this. I've got to figure it all out on my own, and I think one of the biggest problems people run up against is this whole idea that too often people are trying to trade their money for dollars and I'm sorry their money for time. In other words, unfortunately too many people, they're not willing to to realize how valuable your time truly is and I want to make sure as you guys are listening to this, to understand your time is the only commodity you cannot get back. You will have money that comes in money that goes, realized the most important thing for you. Speaker 1: 04:06 I can say for myself, the very first hire I ever made was an assistant, and from that that literally is what blew my business. Help my business to grow and explode all because I was able to focus on the things I was good at and I know it's hard. It might be painful to people going, gosh, 17, 20 bucks an hour. Oh my gosh, you know, that's, you know, 20 hours a week, it's 400 bucks a week at 600 a month. I get that, I know those numbers. I've been there. I can tell you that is by far the greatest investment you will ever make because one of the biggest problems we find is you ended up doing things that are just not worth your time now or most importantly is it prevents you from getting to where your biggest roi is. A, I'm going to come back and talk more about that in a few minutes, but tim, I want to kind of bounce back over to you. Speaker 1: 04:50 So tell me as you start looking at it at hiring assistants, your system's a little different. So what are some of the tips you think of when a person wants to reach out and hire an assistant, what should they be looking for? A level that. So to touch on something you said a little bit earlier, certainly it's overwhelming to think about 20 bucks an hour times 20 hours a week or something like that. These days when I do private consulting, I charge a thousand dollars an hour and I get hired regularly at that rate and people will say, Oh tim, you know, you've, you know, you have an assistant because you charge a thousand dollars an hour and actually the truth is the exact opposite. I charge a thousand dollars an hour today because I got an assistant back when I was charging $40 an hour as a marketing consultant, managing adwords accounts and taking care of landing pages and making lead magnets and all that stuff. Right? And so there's this thing called the positive profit loop and, and so like the very first three things I ever delegated to Sarah and she worked for me for just five hours a week for just 15 bucks an hour. This is five and a half years ago. So the wages have gone up a little bit in the last half, Speaker 2: 05:58 but that was all I could afford and I'll tell you like I was terrified I couldn't afford it. Right. I didn't know what to delegate first and I was. And I was afraid to release control. That's actually the number one frustration or challenge that entrepreneurs have with delegating and getting great assistant is releasing control. So, so I just, I said, what is the smallest, simplest thing I could get off my plate that's taking up my time and it was these three things. It was invoicing clients, it was uploading podcast episodes and uploading blog posts and Sarah took those three things off my plate and I got like three or four hours of my life back because she was a little slower than me. I'll take her five hours to do it. Took me three. That's okay. And with those three hours I then went to my current marketing clients and I said, okay, I've been doing adwords for you. Speaker 2: 06:46 I know that if we have a custom landing page that the optin rates gonna go up, would you be cool if I took three hours? I built you a custom landing page. My rate is $40 an hour. So for you know what? One hundred 80 bucks right is around 200 bucks is what I'm going to charge you instead. Tim, you're a great guy. He'd been doing great work for us. You're effective. We'll go for it. You know, here's 200 bucks. Now what did I do? Those 200 bucks, I did not go and buy some new shoes. Instead I turned around and I gave it to Sarah, right? And at 15 bucks an hour now she was going from five hours a week to like seven hours a week for a few weeks in a row. And guess what I did with that extra time that I had is I went back to my current clients and said, hey, you know, we did. Speaker 2:                              07:28                           We're doing adwords. Now we've got that landing page thing on that landing page. If we set up a lead magnet, it's this pdf thing that I can create top seven tips kind of thing. Um, I really think we get a lot more options and it'd probably take me about 20 hours to create the content and put in a pdf form and set it all up. And at $40 an hour, that's like 800 bucks are you in? And they'll go a team. You're a great guy, you've been super effective. Let's give it a shot. So I took the $800 and guess what I did with Dave? I did not go to Disneyland. Okay. I gave it to Sarah and so Sarah was now working for me not seven hours a week. It was now like 11 hours a week and so then from there with what did I do at that time, I just kept following them and I'll fast forward the story here so that we can get through this quickly. Speaker 2:                              08:13                           Basically I generated so much extra time and money that I could now afford to go take higher level classes, which then allowed me to charge more for my services. So now I went from $40 an hour to 50 to $100 an hour and as I had more and more time and money from increase in my rates and hiring Sarah more and more, I can now afford to go to higher level masterminds and events. And so then I always remember I went to Perry. Marshall had a two day event in Chicago where he brought Richard Caution and the guy who wrote the 80 slash 20 principle and as a Canadian a, it costs more because the Canadian dollar was weak and so I ended up spending 10 grand for two days and I could. That was on the Speaker 1:                              08:56                           absolute edge of what I could and I own a house and I got to pay a mortgage and like I got responsibilities, right, and I just knew that if I went to the ruins, we loaded with people that would be candidates to potentially be my next client and no kidding, there's someone I met there who introduced me to someone else and that someone else hired me for 10 grand a month for three months. So I was able to put 10 grand into the event and I got 30 grand out and that was just the next step. And ever since then it's just been falling out. Positive profit loop of reinvesting, reinvesting, and it all started with the very, very humble act of delegating, invoicing, uploading a podcast and uploading blog posts. And that's that. I love it. I honestly, my bypass is pretty similar to yours as well at a podcasts has been a huge, just takes time and so I system handles all of that kind of stuff. Speaker 1:                              09:52                           One of the things for me actually that was probably the best thing I ever had or do and that was to take care of my email. Things that you struggle with all the time. My Gosh Dave, those are personal. I'm like, listen, I might. Email gets just blown up and at first I was really leery because of my position with the company. Everything else. I'm like, I've got to make sure that what she's saying is the right thing and it's coming across, right. I literally a part of the reason was I was trying to buy back time and then you're gonna hear me say this over and over again. There is the only thing that matters when you start making money. The very first investment you need to do is buy back your time. And I've done the same thing at my home as far as having some, uh, clean the house, take care of the yard, work, all that kind of stuff. Speaker 1:                              10:33                           You have to buy back your time. It frees up your mind and allows you to think more. And so for me, what I had the opportunity of doing with Chrissy, she's my sister, has the most amazing person in the world. I just love her to death. She's just helped me so much as far as even scaling my business here at Click funnels and that is uh, I, I need to get out of the office more. And I just had to clear my head because of all the stuff was going on. So I literally, I go on a walk every morning and she was literally just read through my emails and we record the call and I would just say, okay, I need you to say this and just verbatim almost word for word what I wanted. And she would respond. So it allowed me to clear my head, get some exercise. Speaker 1:                              11:12                           And at first it took a lot longer and you know, it was maybe 30, 40 minutes. We're down now to now, she's gotten to the point where she knows those emails that matter, those that don't, she can sort through it real quick. And then she goes, you know, Dave, I've got questions on these I need you. And I will literally dictate exactly how I would be saying it. So it's coming from me and my voice to, to clients and prospects. But most importantly, it's freed up so much of my time. Uh, I literally, I look at my email twice a day and the only, she set up two different categories as far as dave respond and Dave priority to respond. That was the only two things I look at. I don't pay any attention to the rest of my inbox. And there's nothing that has freed up my mind so much and I don't have to go into my. Speaker 1:                              11:54                           I know it's being taken care of because I get, I literally get hundreds and hundreds of emails every single day. Do that extremely well. I've got another assistant who manages all my social media type of staff and she takes care of all that kind of things, so realize there are so many things that you need to. You need to spend time going out and buying your time back. It allow you. Again, I loved him, what you said and that is you basically took that time and then got additional skills. You got additional education. You went to different masterminds. Realize that that's the type of stuff that a great assistant is able to do for you and I want to make sure that you guys are listening here. I'm hoping anybody's listening to this. The very first investment you will make in yourself is an assistant, and again, like you said, whether it's for five hours a week, I don't care those five hours, that's your little buying back five hours of time. It's 100 bucks. Everybody can afford 100 bucks and I just think it's an absolute necessity. Speaker 2:                              12:50                           I really want everyone to be the surgeon in the room of their business and so this is like a copyrighted concept. They talked, but all the time when people hear me speak, um, and uh, and so the surgeon in the room really focuses on only three things and it's exact same thing. Three things that I hope every entrepreneur can focus on more and more, and what that is, is strategy, high level skill and high level access. So I'm going to tell you a real cool story. It was a three or four weeks ago there. I was here, I mean here in Austin, Texas. And I'm getting on a plane that Sarah, she booked a flight for me to go speak at an event in Denver. So off I go, I land in Denver. I check in at the hotel that Sarah found for me that met all my specific criteria. Speaker 2:                              13:34                           I was very happy to be as very comfortable. So I check in there, go to bed, wake up in the morning. And uh, I look at my prep notes for the day, for the speech I'm going to go and give. And it listed who owns the mastermind, how many people are going to be there, what's the profile of the people there? Am I allowed to ask for a call to action to book a sales meeting with us for those that might be interesting getting a great assistant or not? Um, it's got all the prep information, so I'm going to roll up to the front, front of the stage and right then and there I'm going to know everything. I mean, I know everyone's names. I'm going to look like I'm everyone's best friend because I'm so prepared. Right. Then all the like real sexy stuff, like their clicker remote clicker, their laptop or my laptop, like all the tech stuff. Speaker 2:                              14:15                           Like that was awesome. The prep notes too. So I jumping in an uber, I arrive at the location. Sure enough, it's a great presentation. Great Group of people, awesome host. Some of them are interested in doing business. We changed them. Information. Sarah takes care of coordinating them, getting into my calendar for sales meetings. I go back to the airport, get on a plane that Sarah Book for me. I fly back to Austin, land at 5:45, arrive at my apartment, downtown Austin at 6:15. And guess what? In my apartment there was a dozen people because I had a dinner party that night. I was literally the last person to arrive at my own dinner party at my own apartment. And so 4:00 that day our host desk was booked by my assistant Sarah to come and flip the space. So Polish the silverware, use the laser level to straighten all the pictures on the wall, you know, like every detail. Speaker 2:                              15:06                           Um, at uh, at the next hour after that, the host cleaner came. And this is like while I'm in the air flying back, all this machinery is happening. So that basically at 6:00 when all our hosts or guests arrived, everything's already set. And I showed up and, and, and all of that. What is my Ra strategy? High level access, high level skill. So the strategy was I want to have dinner parties, I want it to be these kinds of people. What's the high level access? I texted these high level people to say, hey, come on down, right? Like you and I met because of David Gonzalez. So like texting a guy like that guy to come and have dinner with us, right. And then, and then for me to shake hands, like my assistant can't be Tim Francis to shake people's hands in network, but I can. And so that's inappropriate activity. Speaker 2:                              15:47                           So. So there I am shaking hands and having a glass of champagne on the balcony. I'm on the 15th floor overlooking the lake downtown. It's beautiful and it really wraps up at 10:30 at night. Then after that I go to bed, I wake up the next morning I go back to the airport, get on a flight that Sara booked for me. I'm going to New York City. I get to the airbnb that she booked for me. I open up, no kidding Dave, check, check this out. I open up the fridge and the groceries I want are already in the fridge, right? Because I want to have a healthy smoothie every single morning. Right. And and while I'm in the air to New York, I guess, guess what's happening back in my apartment is that same host as is back in my apartment, resetting the space so that when I returned from New York City, it's going to be ready for you to work again and do meetings and whatnot. So high level skill, high level access and strategy. Those are the three things for an entrepreneur focus on and if you don't have an assistant you can't, you can't just offload everything all at once. However, I'm telling you, give it like, you know, a few months of working with an assistant and just getting the next piece off your plate and the amount that you get declined that 80 20 curve and spend your time in the top 10 percent of highest value activities. It happens real quick and it's very, very exciting. Speaker 1:                              16:56                           Oh No, I totally, I love that you're making reference to, to Perry Marshall. I remember one of the things to listen to the same course you actually went to as far as the mastermind there with him and it was really the 20 percent of the 20 percent. Yeah, that's really where you need to spend most of your time and everyone talks about, you know, president principal as far as 80 slash 20. The real key is it's not just the 20 percent, it's 20 percent of that 20 percent other words really taught the four percent. That's where your greatest Roi is in your life, in every, every area of your life. Whether it's your relationships, your finances, your health, your fitness, your money, whatever it might be, and to try to get there. You can't get there by yourself. Everybody has to have a team. And it was funny. I was listened to podcasts from Rachel Hollis a while back and she was talking about how frustrated she is with those people who go on on shows and say they basically. They did it all themselves and she's like, listen, you can't do it all yourself. There's no all themselves. Speaker 2:                              17:50                           She goes, let me tell you all the different people who are involved in in running our business, and I think that's the part I want to make sure. Those of us who are listening to this right now realize, first of all, that you're worth it. There's nothing I run across all these solar printers. Just feel like, ah, I just, I'm not that point yet. I, I, I'm not worthy enough to have an assistant. I don't know how you ever got that in your head, but if you think that way, get rid of it. I remember my wife struggled with that at first when we got our first housekeeper 17 years ago, she was like, oh, I shouldn't be taking care of this. I'm like, no, that's not your best use of your time. Spend time with the kids. You don't need to be cleaning the house. Speaker 2:                              18:22                           So I think I love your idea as far as the whole surgeon approach to life and I think it expands beyond just your business. I would take a look at everything else in your life you mentioned as far as groceries and all these things. I would really hope those guys who are listening right now, I hope as soon as you get off your this call, this podcast, wherever you're at, the very first thing you do is get an assistant. And Tim, I know you've got a bunch of tools and resources you were talking to me about before we started. How do they, what are some of the tools, resources, how do they get them? Where do they go? Yeah, great. Assistant Dot com, forward slash toolbox. So it's great assistant.com, forward slash toolbox and there's a few different pdfs there and I think most if not all of it is actually no option. Speaker 2:                              19:03                           Like it's, it's like I'm like I just really want to help. So one of the tools there is called, it's a pdf, it's 104 tasks you can delegate. And so I asked my assistant Sarah to look at the first hundred tasks she ever took off my plate and just to make a list. I think she came up with like 75 or 80 and then I added in the other and I'm so. And a lot of them actually are from my business when it was, when I had a digital marketing company, so someone's listening to click funnels. This could be a perfect opportunity to go go really? I could never log into infusionsoft or convert kit or whatever again, like or, or only once a month or something like that. I never have to deal with webinar jam or go to meeting or anything like that. Speaker 2:                              19:42                           Like I mean there's a huge inventory of tasks that can be delegated and I think it's really inspiring when you go, wow, I can delegate all of this. So that's their greatest system.com forward slash toolbox as a few other tools there. One, which is again, something that I invented and I've now copyrighted and trademarked and all the rest is the tool called three 60 delegation. When when we get started as entrepreneurs, we oftentimes have to be very good at sales, marketing and product development or coming up with a product or delivering a service or whatever it is. And, and what's not included in that core set of competencies is management, leadership, delegation. And so it's very, very common for someone to get up to a couple hundred thousand dollars in sales and, and then they don't realize that there's a difference between management by delegation versus management by abdication, right? Management by abdication happens when you say, well, I'm only doing the top 20 percent screw everything else. Speaker 2:                              20:38                           I'm Outta here, right? You know, and, and, and, uh, an upgraded but still ineffective version of that is saying I'm going to do the top 20 percent in the bottom 80 percent. I'm going to make my system do it. I'm going to hire someone and we put it on facebook. Who knows, someone who can be my assistant. I'm just gonna throw it all at them. That is also a train wreck waiting to happen. There's actually an art and a science and a new skillset that as soon as you start managing an assistant and having an assistant, it's like we should probably have a weekly meeting with them to make sure that we're on the same page when we delegate. We really want to make sure that we use this tool called three 60 delegation and it's right there in the toolbox. I'm not being distracted. Speaker 2:                              21:16                           I want you to. I'm actually looking at the toolbox right now as you're talking and so, so yeah. Good. No, I think it's, I'm actually going through as far as, you know, death by a thousand paper cuts and uh, I think it's a, you know, some of the major crippling cost that people have and the ping pong of changeover, which is one of the main things I've seen happen a million times as far as. Anyways, keep going. I didn't mean to. I'm just, I'm impressed with what you have here. Well, thank you. Yeah, I love your enthusiasm. Anyone who's enthusiastic about being a great coach and leader. I'm, I'm, I'm down with that. So, so three 60 delegation just to give you a very quick taste. Instead of saying take over my click funnels account or set up my landing pages or whatever. It's actually pausing and saying, what is the vision of what I want done by when and what is a sample of success look like? Speaker 2:                              22:02                           What are the resources required sign-ins? Is there any training required? Is there any authority or some, you know, money that's required. And then the third section in a proper delegation is what's called definition of done and definition of done is helping someone understand what does success actually look like. So now to like to give you a sense when you do a proper job of getting a great assistant and you do a proper job of delegating to them, oftentimes we think, hey, I get my time back. That's really cool. I get to do less of what I hate. I get to do more of what I love. And that's all great. I just want to point out like one of the biggest blind spots I think entrepreneurs have is around opportunity cost. So I'll tell you a story about someone who came through our program, his name is Jenny and uh, and he had an online course and he has an online course and you know, for six years he had a new course he wanted to release, but he could never get around to releasing it because he was so stuck in the bottom 80 percent of his business. Speaker 2:                              22:58                           And he heard me give a live 45 minute presentation on how to get a great assistant. And I explained that pretty much one of the worst ways they were getting system as they go on facebook and say, Hey, who's got a brother in law, sister in law or something like that. The success rate is got to be somewhere north of 20 percent and 40 percent success rate. Right? And, and, uh, and so I explained, here's what a hiring funnel looks like, just like there's a marketing funnel. There's a same idea in hiring as a hiring funnel. And we're actually looking at 50 to 100 candidates to come with, with one winning assistant. And we're spending like 50 to 100 hours to find one winning assistant. So that's a vastly more thorough process in a search. Then just going on facebook and saying who's looking for a few hours? Speaker 2:                              23:43                           Right. And Jimmy saw how much work it goes into getting a great assistant knew not for me, I'm just going to skip that. I'm just gonna go on facebook. So he did that and you got someone in six weeks later it all flamed out and he got frustrated, went back and he did what most entrepreneurs cross their arms are just going to do it myself. Right. So for six months you continue to suffer and he came back to us after six months and said, you know what? Everything you said not to do, I did it. Everything you said was gonna happen, happened. I'm now ready and serious about getting a great assistant that's going to be like a right hand person for me. And we're going to evolve this business kind of once and for all. So it took about six months. Not, not. I mean, we can usually get an assistant for someone in 30 days, which is really exciting, and then that process of just doing what we're talking about here, three 63 60 delegation being the surgeon in the room, all the rest took them about six months to get all that off his plate and guess what, Dave, if freedom, but enough time and energy for him to launch that course. Speaker 2:                              24:43                           And after that, that new course generated a quarter million dollars in new revenue for him. Very, very high margin. So what was the cost of not getting an assistant? Was it, you know, that he was frustrated. He was the real costs that he couldn't do a little bit of like the stuff you love. Yeah, that's all in there, but actually there was a quarter million dollars waiting for him every single quarter for six years. And only once you've got an assistant and got himself out of the bottom 80 percent was he free to go actually pull the trigger and make that happen. Speaker 1:                              25:16                           I love it. What did I get? I appreciate your time. Most importantly, really share with people how to actually get an assistant where to go, so if they want to find out more from you, what's the best way of reaching out to you? Speaker 2:                              25:26                           Head over to our website, greatest system.com. We got tons of testimonials from lots of clients who've had great success. If you can just see their success stories, see my effect it, see if there's anyone from your industry that you recognize or anything like that. Um, grabbed the toolbox which is greatest isn't dotcom forward slash toolbox. And if someone wants to set up a 35 to 55 minute consultation of bus to see if they'd be a good fit for our program, we're happy to do that as well. And there's just a button right there to book an appointment. Speaker 1:                              25:53                           Awesome. Well, Tim, thanks again for your time. Highly recommend anybody who's listening to this. The very first hire you must make is a great assistance. So please, please make sure you have an assistant and if they're not doing everything that you want them to do, take a look@greatestsystem.com slash toolbox will give you a ton of other ideas of different ways that you can actually have. What are the things you can get off your plate, how to delegate A. I'm just such a huge, huge believer in this, and again, I want to make sure that Tim came on to help you guys understand the importance of focus again on who and not how. Let someone else take care of this. There's people actually love doing this stuff that you don't want to do in your life, the things that you don't enjoy, people actually do with love. We paid for doing that, so please take the time, make the time and go out and find yourself a great assistant. Kim, thanks again and we'll talk to you soon. Thank you.

Why Myles Decided to talk to Greg: Greg Smith is the host the Rise Above Podcast. He is master at mentoring successful entrepreneurs scale their business to new levels. Recently, he helped take a $133,000 ARR business to over $1,850,000 in revenue in the past 11 months. He is a father of three and married to his high school sweetheart of 11 years. Tips and Tricks for You and Your Business: The morning routine (1:00) Greg’s Story (9:30) Staying Motivated (24:00) Quotable Moments: "You have to have somebody teach you the way." "Go find a mentor, but be coachable and teachable, but most importantly, implement what you learn." Other Tidbits: Finding a mentor who’s path you can follow and mirror is important to succeed quicker. Important Links: FunnelHackerRadio.com FunnelHackerRadio.com/freetrial FunnelHackerRadio.com/dreamcar ---Transcript--- Speaker 1:     00:00         Welcome to funnel hacker radio podcast, where we go behind the scenes and uncover the tactics and strategies top entrepreneurs are using to make more sales, dominate their markets, and how you can get those same results. Here's your host, Dave Woodward. Hey, what's going on everybody? Speaker 2:     00:18         And welcome to funnel hacker radio. Today. I have a very special guest on, but you may notice this is a different voice than you're used to today. Dave's voice is very, um, I guess you could say raspy. He was yelling a lot yesterday. We did a funnel hacking live telethon. And so his voice, he's a little under the weather. So I'm taking over today. Hopefully this is close to the standard that he has already set. But today on the show, ladies and Gentlemen, I have Greg Smith. Greg, how you doing man? I'm doing great. Thanks. Miles. So, Greg, I want to start with kind of a different question than you're probably used to getting in that most podcast started off with. So I'm going to come right out the gate. Greg, what is your morning routine? Speaker 3:     01:02         Oh, you know, uh, it's so funny because this has been something I've, I've really been dialing in. It's so funny you asked this because this has been something for me personally. Uh, growing up, like as a kid, I kid you not, I funny story. I used to sleep in my parents' room because they had TV and no other house, you know, no other room in the house did, but I'd stepped a one or two in the morning like as a five-year-old. Dang. Yeah. I've always been this night house. So for me as an entrepreneur over the past 11, 12 years I've gotten all of my work done primarily from 10:00 on, uh, because that's when my wife goes to bed and then it's just like my time. And as of recently, you know, I have three kids, six, 3:00 AM, you know, 18 months. So I've had to like start becoming a morning person and you know, the biggest thing for me in the morning, number one is, is I have my phone set to where it's on do not disturb mode and I only have like three people, like four. Speaker 3:     02:05         So I have, you know, my parents, my wife and then uh, a few key business partners and a couple of ventures that I have that can get through to me at all times, but I keep that on do not disturb typically until 10:00 AM. And then I also now with the, the iphone has screen screen limiting like car app limiting and I turned all my apps off except for the ones that I read, um, you know, until 9:00 AM. And that's after I get my stuff done in the morning. I typically read something like I have a rule where I have a non digital morning. I used to just get up, check my emails right away and just like get into the day. And then when I found out is I was, I was always reacting to other people were throwing at me instead of like getting my mind set. Speaker 3:     02:50         Right. So I typically don't work out in the morning. I'm a Jujitsu guy in the best Jujitsu a simply at nighttime because that's just what other people have the ability to go in. But for me, getting my mind right and reading something a pre Gutenberg like something prior to the printing press, whatever that might be for you is very important to me. So I get that in and I guess some wisdom and then I go on a typically to learn something or read something from, you know, thousands of years ago and then to go into something that I'm kind of hot on a which is marketing or mindset. And then from there I ended up, you know, kind of get thrown into the whirlwind, getting my kids ready for school, getting them off, then coming home. Then I can go into like more of reaction mode. So then my question for you, like when did you really start focusing on the morning routine? Speaker 3:     03:41         And then there's a second part of this question and I'll ask that as soon as you kind of tell us when you really start focusing. Was it 10 or 11 years ago when you got into entrepreneurship or was it just recently? It's just recently. It was, it was really just within the past year because um, my daughter who's three now, she goes to a pre K and so her and my son Sam, they go to two different schools whereas prior it was just like, it was one school, uh, just for my boy and so my wife was really able to like take him in and kind of do the kid thing by herself and now we kind of both, like she could do it by yourself but it's just easier if we both, like I go to one school, she goes to another and so her doing kinda like Kinda loop. Speaker 3:     04:24         So just within the past year has been like all about the morning and I don't know if that's just because I'm getting like I don't like mornings. I really don't like I am a night owl. That's, I mean that's just how I am. Like I record my podcasts episodes are typically in between 11 at night midnight. And that's because when, that's when my house is like guaranteed to be quiet because in the morning and you know, you'll find out, you know, being a new dad that in the end you probably have this now asleep. But even if you schedule, you're like, I'm going to wake up at five. Well there's, there's no law that your kid's not going to wake up at 5:15 and just, he's, he's waking up at 4:30 and stayed for two hours. So. Exactly. And then you're just totally thrown off. So it's really been within the past year because my, uh, my wife is asleep wizard. Speaker 3:     05:09         I mean she has a thing throughout the night, even like at five months, our kids are typically get like five, six hour stints. So now there's your, there's your next funnel right there. Man. I know, I tell her all the time, I'm like, Hey, you know, she's like, ah, I just don't know. Like with the first kid we just thought it was luck. And then with the second kid, we were like, I told her, I was like, if you get the, our daughter Charlotte's asleep the same way you got Sam to sleep and we know like you're good. And then she did it and we're like, Nah, it's just too. And then we had the third one, it happened again and I mean it's literally like she is just, she's so good at it. She has been able to help a lot of our friends do the same thing too. But a lot of it comes down to the mothers, um, personality style and, and, you know, different, different feelings with letting the kid kinda cried out for a little bit. Things like that. So I expect it. I expect to see the funnel pretty. Um, I Speaker 2:     05:58         did have one question on that. So you said you turn on do not disturb. So for me, I don't do that. I feel like I'm very reactionary even at night and it kind of takes away from, you know, sometimes family time and in the morning it's the first thing I do, I see in like, Oh man, I've got to put out these fires before I go into work. Um, and you mentioned it kind of getting your mind right and getting in that right state of mind. Do you feel by doing the do not disturb that even though like the messages and emails pile up, you're more productive during the day? Speaker 3:     06:27         One hundred percent. Now let me tell you, because as you're saying that I'm envisioning like your phone in the morning because he's insane. Yeah. It used to be my phone. So let me tell you, the number one productivity hack that I've ever done this in productivity has been. This is actually been something where I'm like, dude, I need to put out a course on this because this has changed my life forever. Um, I have turned off all red notifications on my phone so I don't get my mail APP does not get red badges. My facebook doesn't get red badges. Instagram, my facebook pages app and my email app, they don't, they don't Ding, they don't give me red notifications and what I've also done, which is key because even when you're on do not disturb when you get a text, well I don't know if it's with texts but it will often show on your, on your screen. Speaker 3:     07:17         You'll see it pop up. Like right now, uh, you know, you and I are talking on a podcast. If I didn't have, do not disturb on and I didn't have what's called banner notifications off, somebody could text me and I could see it and it, it would totally derail my thoughts. And so I also turn that off too. Like just to give a tip. Like you can turn all those things off and go and do not disturb, but you also have to turn off those banner notifications that are popping up on your phone because it's like, it's, it'd be amazing if you couldn't look at it. But like humans, you're just like, Dang, you know, and you look or it pops up and your, your phone, just like, even when your phone's screen just lights up, it's like, you know, Martha, you just look. So, Speaker 2:     07:59         uh, and then we feel obligated to answer back. Like that's me. I'm like, Oh man, like this came in, I need as entrepreneurs or as employees and is people in general, like we don't want to leave people hanging. So it's like our first thought is I better respond to this. Even if it's 4:00 in the morning while you're feeding the baby or you know, as you're falling asleep, you're like, I better get this done before I hit the sack. So with that, I'm going to try to implement what you just said. I think that's great. Um, I'm going to do it and let you know. And then next time I'm on the podcast with Dave, I'll give an update. Speaker 3:     08:26         That'd be awesome. I'd love to hear that. And it. And it will. The thing is what you find out. And I found this out, I used to travel a lot and um, we'd go over to Europe and other places where you didn't have the Internet, like legitimately, like 2009, like your cell phone carriers just didn't carry over. If it did, it was expensive and so we had all, like, we're as usually with a bunch of entrepreneurs, you get to the place where you had internet and you'd be like, oh my gosh, you know, I can get to my phone. And then when you find out is there's really not that many important things that happen within a or five hour timeframe that you just can't answer all at once. Speaker 2:     08:58         I love it, man. I'm going to try to implement that because I agree. I think we overreact like in the instant or in the moment, like when you get back to this right away and in all reality, like people could probably wait a day, two days a week, two weeks. So if everybody out there that's listening, if my response time slows down, it's Greg's fault. Greg, I want to jump into your story. I'm like, you're a two comma club award winner, but we're going to get to that here in a minute. I want to hear about Greg. How'd you get into entrepreneurship? What was kind of that initial push into it and then what has kind of transpired over the last, you know, 10, 11, 12 years? Speaker 3:     09:39         You know, ironically, I really became like, you know, everybody has a story, like I've always been an entrepreneur and always sold things and you know, that kind of thing. And I did like, you know, I sold like lemon heads and things as a kid, but I really didn't even know what being an entrepreneur was. I just knew like when I was 18 I didn't want to go to college. Yeah, exactly. I did my, my dad. Yeah. My Dad always joked because I always had money for things that I wanted and that was the key. Like I was a bmx or in a rollerblader, like thex games kind of did and I always had money for those things because I would work for it. And frankly I grew up in like kind of a poor middle class family. So I had to pay for my own things and so, you know, I always had that going on, but when I was 18 I had watched my sister go through college and I didn't really know what I wanted to do with my life. Speaker 3:     10:27         And I thought, man, I'm, I just don't feel right spending money on an education where, you know, I watched my sister, not everybody's like this in college. So, um, but my sister, you know, like took bowling class and clay pottery and I'm like, you know, I'm like, this doesn't make any sense, you know, like, this is absolutely insane. And so I didn't go to college. I was in the pizza industry actually for seven years and I went off and did a bunch of odd, odd end things like bought a box truck for 800 bucks. I was going to have like a used tire business. And then I ended up, uh, the box truck was like a total lemon and I parked it in the middle of, well I won't say where, but I parked it and I never like, I don't even know what happened to it because I'm like this, like it was going to cost more to fix it and to keep it or get rid of it. So long story short, I always wanted something, I didn't know what it was. And then I had a friend approach me about network marketing company and this was when I was 22, I was working third shift and I made really good money at the time. I say really good, but you know, it was $45,000 per year without a college education. Speaker 2:     11:31         Yeah, that's, I think a lot of people out there, you know, employees, that's a good wage right there actually for a note. No degree. Speaker 3:     11:38         Yeah. Well, and I was watching all my friends, you know, coming out of school, out of college at that time and they couldn't get jobs in their respective fields that they went to school for. And so I was extremely happy with my job, but not my hours. The third shift, the whole, you know, climbing the corporate to where, you know, for me at that time, like I was in the trucking industry and these guys were 60, 70 years old like they were, they were bleeding it out. And so for me to get a pay raise, I needed somebody to retire, die. Yeah, totally. So, and I've always been a competitor. So for me it was like I want to be able to get rewarded for where my effort, the more effort I put in, the more reward I get. And so as somebody approached me with network marketing and I didn't even know what it was like, I had never heard network marketing, Mlm, direct sales, whatever you want to call it. Speaker 3:     12:24         But what I saw was a product that I liked because I tried it, I loved the product I was into is the supplement space and I was a wrestler and I've always worked out and done those things. But more importantly is there was somebody attached to it that was already successful in it that said that they would mentor and teach me. And that was what I had always been lacking in the other like odd and end things that I had tried in the past with somebody to actually kind of hold my hand and mentor me through the process. And it was amazing because with network marketing, I believe you can get mentorship and training to different ways, you know, right now we're in double Comma Club, a x coaching and we pay for that. And it, my goodness just last week was, was one day of that was worth our tuition for the year. Speaker 3:     13:09         And it's truly like unbelievable. And then the other way is you can earn favor from somebody, right? You can start to get into their good graces by serving them and providing value to them. And through network marketing, you have the opportunity to really do that by being a producer and actually taking things that people teach you and applying it, um, you gain their favorite because those people genuinely, typically like me. I love to coach and teach people as long as they're applying what you're, you're coaching and teaching and so long story man, you know, over 11, 11 and a half years now. That's what I've done. Network marketing relationships, personal growth, success mindset, strategy, like that's been my bread and butter, but that's ultimately what led me to click funnels, you know, after a long time because network marketing, I always tried to figure out how to, how to do it online, you know, I've built my business, you know, primarily I say offline, but we use funnels and stuff for our webinars and stuff like that. Speaker 3:     14:07         But no advertising, you know. So then what was like your first initial step into click funnels? You said you were trying to get more of an online presence. What was your goal? And then like how did you find out about click funnels? Yeah, so I had um, since 2008, uh, so I started network marketing 2007, 2008. We started building our own boat called team website, like basically a training portals, right? You would come to it and you would get the documents that we have and systems and strategies on building your business and so forth. And so I started building all that, like html kind of stuff, you know, like just, I had to learn how to build websites and then I actually owned a gym for four years and I did a websites through that, um, you know, wordpress and things like that. And so I was familiar with all these different things. Speaker 3:     14:55         And what happened was, it was, it would have been maybe a little over two years ago. I had a friend. We're trying many different softwares and we came across clickfunnels and this was like version one point. Oh yeah. And it. But it was still, it was still better than everything else out there, you know. And um, I started getting into it and it was amazing. All the stuff that was inside one piece of software and whereas before, you know, I had like 10 different accounts with different things and trying to implement it. So I saw these ability. But what really came, and I was, what I was trying to do at that time with clickfunnels was I was trying to run some ads and different things to a fitness professionals because that's part of my background with the network marketing thing as well, uh, owning a gym for four years. Speaker 3:     15:45         But I just couldn't quite figure out like what it is that, that was like greg at that point. Like what, what was I sharing? And then I had an opportunity, uh, through learning all of this stuff. I mean, if you look in my office, there's just books and books and books everywhere. And I, I kinda, I relate it to like I had all the knowledge but I didn't have a playground to like get out there and click funnels gave me that playground. But then through a strategic relationship that I had with a couple of John, Michelle Bishop, uh, I was able to plug myself in to something and truly like show the skills that I had because they had a business idea and they were doing, you know, they're done pretty well with it, but they need somebody with the strategy. And the knowhow through click funnels and facebook advertising, Youtube, pre roll ads in those things and they needed that part. Speaker 3:     16:38         And so we, uh, we actually formed a business and I just told them I had equity in order to do that just because my network marketing company is very successful. So in order to take time away from that and divert it had to be worthwhile. And so what was cool is through what I've, I've learned and the neat thing with click funnels, you know, going back to the mentoring thing is that you can either, you know, either pay for it or you can earn it. But the neat thing about what Russell has set up with.com secrets, expert secrets. And then you know, the final trilogy here, the final book, traffic secrets, when that comes out, he is truly given you, you know, mentoring from far with those books to show you exactly what to do with the software. And you know, if you can implement that and you learn it, it's amazing what happens. Speaker 3:     17:25         And that's what's been phenomenal with us for the past 10 years of forming that relationship with John and Michelle is what's trending, what happened from the knowledge that I've learned throughout all the years. And we might have to cut this up and turn it into a promotional video and a testimonial video. It's all through it and it's, it's, it really is amazing. You know, the, the traffic event that we just came back to you, it really liked it. Honestly. I felt like it pulled the last 10 years of my life together and really like, even though I'd heard things and I knew them and I knew like little pieces, but the whole strategy and the overall concept that Russell teaches through that. I mean, if you can't build a business with that, I don't know what you're going to build a business with online. I really don't. I mean it's, it's the, to me, it's the end all be all in terms of like step one, two, three, playbook, and then you have the software to do it with Speaker 2:     18:19         Mike drop seriously. Mic Drop, man. No, I totally agree at that event was unbelievable, right? Like the.com secrets, hey, how to, what you need a funnel for and how it goes, how to get the most out of your customers and then, you know, expert secrets, how to position yourself as the expert and become like the Goto or the guru and then traffic secrets, you know, how to get more customers Speaker 3:     18:44         [inaudible] Speaker 2:     18:45         to your product and a man like you mentioned, Russell was mentoring from afar and I think, you know, as people get into those books, implement, start having success, you know, they start moving up the value ladder and everything and try to get closer to that mentorship, right? Sometimes we have to go out and find that person, um, build a relationship with them and Russell's allowing people to do that through his books, through his courses and through as a higher ticket coaching programs. So I have a question for you, Michelle and John, you met them, have ladies edge. Tell us about the funnel. I mean, just so everybody out there listening knows this is a two comma club award winning funnel. They are crushing it. It's a beautiful funnel and the product and the results speak for themselves. So if you want to give us a little insight to that, that'd be awesome. Speaker 3:     19:31         Yeah, it's been amazing. We, um, so originally Michelle has a background to where she used to do meal plans, you know, a long time ago prior to we actually met through network marketing. I mentored her in that specific business and then her and John got married and so then it was kinda like this mentoree relationship between me and then the both of them. And so we had a history of working together and what had happened was she had a child and a couple different moves and then she wanted to get back into the fitness industry, like, you know, and really share her message and her heart and help women, not just with meal plans but with the entire package, you know, women empowerment, a self love, all of those things that come along with it because that's a big piece of that whole, you know, world really with, with female specifically. So for us, the, the, we originally started out, um, we, we were at a premier price of $97 per month Speaker 3:     20:22         and so that was December 17th and we are monthly reoccurring. So prior to, um, the bishops and I as they had just done kind of like a one month promo, they would say, hey, let's do a four week bootcamp. And their biggest one at one point it was like 600 people, you know, at $97. So they had had a phenomenal, phenomenal year. I won't get income for that, but we've more than 10 it since we, since we formed our partnership. And really it's just amazing how well we all work together. It's just a true blessing to be in business with great people. And so, uh, we started with $97 per month and what we did is we just transitioned, instead of trying to collect money, you know, once every month we create a continuity based program, which is the background I came from with my, my physical gym, you know, as, hey, let's get them automated and make them cancel. Speaker 3:     21:15         And it's the best thing for everybody who holds them accountable and helps them get better results in the end and then just as of recently and, and so then we actually go back, we did that, we promote and promote it, and then we started doing like a front end hook to where we'd say $7 for seven days. We let them try us out for seven bucks. And it was a way that we could pre qualify who came in. So instead of just doing free seven days, we're like, because we're at $97 a month, I mean, you know, free seven days and then 97, that's a large jump. Even $7 for seven days in the [inaudible]. Ninety seven was lard jump. However we had a 72 percent trial to conversion rate. Holy Cow. Yeah. So that. So we knew like, all right, we have a winter. And so we built that up and we now call that the sisterhood. Speaker 3:     22:01         And so we have the sisterhood. And then we had a lifetime membership open for, for a little while in the beginning with, since shut that off, you can't get a lifetime membership anymore. No longer. And we have now have a, a, I want to say lower tier, but lower priced package because we did have a lot of people with the demographic being in between 20 and 35 even though we have up to 60 and 65 year olds in there is phenomenal. And yeah, it's totally cool to see like the different demographics that are within there, just backgrounds and body types and everything is so amazing. The group of women, it's as crazy miles I run like I'm uh, you know, I'm a hunting, you know, fast car driving like a real man's man. Yeah. Like, you know, and uh, I, you know, I'm an, I'm an owner, you know, a partner in this women's right. Speaker 3:     22:54         But it's amazing to watch what these women have done and like there's no judgment and it's so cool. Like it's, it's absolutely just changing a women inside out, which I know is, for me, I get passionate because I know that helps change the marriage. Yeah, that's really, that's really important to me. I've been married for 11 years, been with my wife for 17 years and so like to see that I think is like the most fulfilling part for me. But anyways, uh, we now have a lower tier and we do a free trial for seven days and then $27. But uh, we, we have kept the premier package called the sisterhood at 97 as well. So, so I think one of the big takeaways for that and that people need to realize is I'm providing value before asking for money. Right? Like, I know you did the $7 to 97, but you are providing them value where they are going to see results or to learn something. And like once they see Speaker 2:     23:46         the value or see the results, it's like, you know what, this is what I want and that, you know, that's why we do the books. The free plus shipping, right? They're going to get it. They're going to learn, they're going to see the value and then they're that much more likely to sign up for clickfunnels, for, to join the coaching program because they've already seen how much value has been provided at such a low price point. So that $7 to 97 converting at 72 percent is absolutely insane and incredible. Um, so you guys are listening out there and provide value before the big ask. Um, Greg, I do want to ask a couple of questions. Is going to be a little rapid fire, so just, uh, as you can say as much as you want or as little as you want, but here we go. So I kind of already asked you what your morning routine was and you're already crushing it with ladies edge. We'll get to your podcast here before we get off, but you're killing it in network marketing. How do you stay motivated? Speaker 3:     24:38         That's a great question. You know, for me it's always, it's always, um, I have journals from all of my past, like I keep journals and I've documented like the most emotional moments in that. And typically for me personally, that's changing people's lives through coaching and mentoring and so I always remember who it is that I'm serving in the end result and the feeling that comes from seeing them get that result and I keep them at the forefront of my mind and I have pictures all around my office, like if you know, you had it live, you would see like me with those people and so I keep keep the people in front of me, which was cool to hear a rustle talk about traffic is really people and when you start looking at traffic as the people and providing that value, like you said, that's what really motivates me is to see change in behavior and changing habits. So Speaker 2:     25:24         dude, perfect answer. Next question then. What has been one of your biggest challenges? So you say you know, you're motivated by impacting people's lives, changing their lives, helping them out. Um, what has been one of your biggest challenges with doing that? Speaker 3:     25:39         No, man. I'm gonna get a little vulnerable. I'll try. I'll keep it short though. Speaker 2:     25:44         We love vulnerability. We think that that's important and kind of really helps people connect, right? We're not all on this pedestal. Uh, we've all been through things, so please go ahead. Well, Speaker 3:     25:56         for me, so I started in network marketing. I've had great success in that. I love it. Like I'm still very active with my team and, and leaders in our organization and I'm absolutely love that side, but I believe that I have a bigger purpose in that I can help more people than ever, ever before with the Internet, you know, the fact is we're the first humans that have access to this thing called the Internet and we've literally touched the lives of almost every human in the world somehow. And so I've been trying to figure out, and this is what, what's been amazing is like I've been trying to figure all this stuff out, like how do I serve people? Like what do I do? Do I create a coaching program? Do I create a mentoring program? Like I still don't have the answer to that, but what I've done is I've been able to use the skills that I've acquired while trying to figure that out to do the ladies edge and that's what's been so neat is because I see my talent there, but then I also know like, you know, I also have another purpose to, to serve outside of that and I'm still really trying to figure that out. Speaker 3:     26:53         Like what is Greg's funnel? You know, I don't, I don't necessarily have that. I know what I know what I want to do, but I don't have like the specific program lined out for it is really what it comes down to you. So that is still my biggest struggle. And I think the biggest takeaway from that that like as I as I journal about it is for anybody, because I know the clickfunnels community and I'm around it. And the two comma club thing, it's like even if you don't know exactly what you want to do, go help somebody else fulfill their vision. And that's what I've been able to do with Michelle is like help her fulfill her vision and, and I kind of took a back seat because I'm used to having the front seat, like I've spoken in very large stages and helped a lot of people in that sense, but like I've taken a back seat to, to now serve again in a different way to where I can figure out what it is that I want to do. I still don't know. So that's, that's my, you know, that's, that's still it, you know, I'm trying to figure out like how I'm going to serve the world on a bigger scale. Speaker 2:     27:53         And I think we know that was perfect answer again. Um, but I think we all struggle with that, right? No matter how successful we are, we're always trying to find like one way or another rising something, whether that's our income or the impact or our reach. And so I'm not as a great answer. And so next, when you kind of talked about the gym, the pizza industry, the box truck, where you going to start the tire business. So I don't know how many of those were failures or how many of them just are learning experience, but how many times did you have to fail before succeeding? And then, you know, what are those experiences teach you? Speaker 3:     28:24         Uh, yeah, there's, there's so many more stories. Unfortunately. So funny. Yeah. The pizza thing was just like my first, like I come from a very industrious town. So I started working when I was 14. I really started working when I was much younger than that. But the pizza was like my first job job that I stuck to for 77 years. And you know, I was actually one of my best friends. Well previous best friends, you know, almost 20 years ago now, uh, told me I was only ever going to amount to being a pizza boy because I didn't because I didn't choose to go to college and um, so anyways, we're no longer friends but um, you know, that always stuck with me and so I kind of had like this, like try to figure it out mentality. And so there were, there was actually like so many different things that I tried to do because at one point I just like, I just want to make money. Speaker 3:     29:16         Like that was just like, I was like, God, I just want to make money and not have a job like, or a boss and control my life and I really didn't have clarity. And then, you know, through all of those, what I really learned is that you have to have somebody teach you the way. Like I think having a mentor and you can do this through books, right? Like, like we were talking about with Russell's books. Then Russell has other ways you can do at this even more hands on Double Comma Club coaching. Like that's even more intense. And so I think making sure that you're learning from somebody who's already gone through the experience of whatever it is you're trying to do is so important because it can literally raise like two or five or even 10 years of just regret and failures and struggles when you just say, okay, I'm going to do what they say, like the, you know, uh, Kale and talking about Hashtag do what Russell says, it's so important. So I think finding a mentor is so vital and learning and doing. And so that's like my message of life is like go find a mentor, but be coachable and teachable, but most importantly, implement what you learn. Okay. Speaker 2:     30:24         Awesome man. Thank you for sharing that. Now. Awesome. Now these last two, we're going to end on a little lighthearted. I appreciate you coming in and getting vulnerable and telling your experiences and not just focusing on the successes, right? You're going back and talking about some of the harder things that you went through. And I think that's what, you know, a lot of us need to hear it right? Like we see these people that are having success. Russell and all those guys were like, ah, it's just so easy for them, but there's a story behind it and that was cool about traffic secrets in the week before we had, um, you know, the dry bar comedy where Russell went through all the stories and you saw the struggles that they went through, the literally the, almost being bankrupt and laying people off and you know, everybody goes through those things and I think people need to hear those so they don't get so discouraged and they were like, okay, they went through this, so can I. So I really appreciate you sharing your story. So we'll finish it off with a little light hearted. I'm a food guy. You've seen me. I'm a little bigger around the waist and everything. I love food. What is your favorite food? Speaker 3:     31:20         Oh goodness. It's donuts. I can put down like six donuts. No problem. Speaker 2:     31:28         Any certain type like maple chocolate, Maple Bay, Speaker 3:     31:31         I'm a glaze with chocolate icing or glaze with chocolate icing with cream filled. Speaker 2:     31:36         Ooh Man, that sounds good. I said, oh goodness. It's lunchtime right now. That sounds good for you. What would be your dream vacation, like kind of the favorite way or favorite place for you to relax and kind of step away for a minute? Speaker 3:     31:51         Well, it depends, you know, you kind of have vacations that you take solo, which for me are a little mini vacations down to my property where I go hunting, but I am a very relationship focused kind of guy. So I love taking, going to amazing places like my most favorite vacation I've ever been to has been Bora Bora, hands down. But what made Bora Bora, Bora Bora was I was with about 50 people that were entrepreneurs as well and, and we all, you know, are of the same mind and heading in a direction. And so to have that experience with other people I think is, is as amazing. So for me, I love getting out and traveling really anywhere. It's about the company that I'm with. Speaker 2:     32:35         Awesome. Man. I, I agree. Like I like to get away and relax, but I'm also a little bit of an extrovert. I talk with people. I like building relationships as well and so a kind of feel the same way. If there's not people there with me on vacation, was I really there? Is it really a vacation? So we're going to close this up, but I want people to know where they can find you. Where can they find you on instagram? Tell us about your podcast real quick and they find you on the other social platforms. Speaker 3:     33:00         But instagram is just the real Greg Smith. Uh, that's my user. And then facebook, I have facebook page is Greg Smith. Hopefully you can find it. There's a lot of spirits, but the best place to find me is rise above podcast. So just started that, uh, were like episode 17 and uh, that's just, you know, I share a lot of really deep stories about catalyst. We only scratched the surface today on some of my past and the struggles and pains to get to where I am and continue to go through. So a rise podcast. That's, that's, uh, that's kind of what I'm putting out right now. Speaker 2:     33:33         So where can they find that page? It's just rise above podcast.com. Yes. Awesome. So guys go to rise above podcast.com also. Go on Itunes, subscribe and review the rise of a podcast. Greg. Dude, thank you so much for coming on the show. I know it was kind of a little switcheroo on you instead of having Dave you had me, but I really appreciate you coming on. It was great talking with you. Can't wait to see you at the next event. Everyone out there listening. Go Follow Greg and then also make sure you go subscribe and review this podcast and then let me know how this episode when tell Dave if you want me to ever be back on the show or if you never want me back on the show, let us know. Greg. Thanks man. We will talk to you soon. Speaker 3:     34:12         See everybody. Thanks miles. Speaker 4:     34:15         Hey everybody. Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to podcasts. If you don't mind, could you please share this with others, rate and review this podcast on itunes. It means the world to me where I'm trying to get to as a million downloads here in the next few months and just crush through over $650,000 and I just want to get the next few $100,000 so we can get to a million downloads and see really what I can do to help improve and and get this out to more people at the same time. If there's a topic, there's something you'd like me to share or someone you'd like me to interview, by all means, just reach out to me on facebook. You can pm me and I'll be more than happy to take any of your feedback as well as if people you'd like me to interview more than happy to reach out and have that conversation with you. So again, go to Itunes, rate and review this, share this podcast with others and let me know how else I can improve this or, and do to make this better for you guys. Thanks.

Why Dave Decided to talk to Pete: Pete Vargas is an entrepreneur who helps people grow their businesses and spread their message through stages. He is the founder and CEO of Advance Your Reach, an organization with a shared vision of impacting 1 billion people across 7 spheres of influence. Since 2003, he and his team have booked over 25,000 stages worldwide–and generated tens of millions of dollars of revenue through those stages. Tips and Tricks for You and Your Business: Why stages? (1:30) Lead collecting (8:40) Where to get One Hour Launch Workshop (14:00) Quotable Moments: "Facts tell and stories sell." Important Links: OneHourLaunchWorkshop.com/dave ---Transcript--- Speaker 1:     00:00         Welcome to funnel hacker radio podcast, where we go behind the scenes and uncover the tactics and strategies top entrepreneurs are using to make more sales, dominate their markets, and how you can get those same results. Here's your host, Dave Woodward. Everybody. Welcome back to [inaudible] Speaker 2:     00:18         radio. I am your host Dave Woodward and I am so, so excited. I've got a dear friend of mine I want to bring on and the reason I want to bring him on his. I was actually out at his event and while I was there and I rarely paid to go to people's events anymore these days, but this one we actually paid to go to because of the value that I wanted to make sure we got from him and while I was out there at his event, I wanted to make sure that I had him on my podcast so he could share the same types of things with you and give you the opportunity to actually get involved with something like this. So without any further delays here, I want to bring on a dear friend of mine, Mr Pete Vargas. Welcome to show bud. Hey Man, I'm excited to be here. Speaker 2:     00:56         Thank you for having me. I'm stoked and just absolutely love you man. Well, I am so excited. Again, for those of you guys just don't know Pete. He's got a company called advance your reach. It's actually why we went out. A lot of you guys have heard. We actually are in the process of starting our own speaking team and even though Russell spoken on literally hundreds of stages and we've done literally thousands of Webinars, I was, we started looking at trying to systematize actual speaking and using, speaking to build our business. I thought there was no one better that I could bring on than Pe. So I flew myself and Chris who runs Chris now runs our, uh, our speaking team, flew him and myself and miles out to Colorado to spend three days with Pete and his team to learn really about how do you land stages, how can you use stages in your business, how can you actually use a stage to build your business by providing massive value and really you state using. Speaker 2:     01:47         For us, we're looking at using stages to scale and I know for a lot of you guys who are in the situation or listening to podcasts, some of you are sitting there going, I don't know. I haven't even. I've never done a stage presentation. How would I do that? Pete's going to answer that for you today. For those of you guys who were in Russell situation where you sit there going, the last thing I want to do is actually get on more stages. He's going to tell you how you can actually create a speaker team like what we're doing and do the exact same thing. Again, I'm you guys don't want to hear from me. What you really want to hear from is my friend who I'm so excited to have on the show. Again, Mr Pete Bargas. So Pete, let's kind of talk about what you refer to now as this one, our launch. Speaker 2:     02:19         What the heck is a one hour lunch? Yeah, so let me just tell you that one. Our launch, we're the one hour launched was birthed for me, like that's an important piece to understand. I, as you know, as a youth pastor and I brought speakers in because I didn't want to speak on the stage and so I brought these speakers in and I remember showed up my first Wednesday night. There were three kids there and I thought, how am I going to grow my youth ministry, which is going to be equivalent to how you're going to grow your business. And so what we did, Dave, is I brought in speakers and in one hour I saw my kids get so moved and inspired that they, the youth group just continued to grow, grow, grow, grow, grow. We went from three kids to 750 kids in a town of 12,000 from bringing in over 30 over the course Speaker 3:     03:00         of four years. And our youth group just grew. And I saw the magic in one hour on a stage and the action that my kids took. One of those speakers, as you know, his daughter was the first girl killed at Columbine in 99. And he came and spoke and he came and he said, you know, there's five people that you need to let them know how much you love them because you don't know how long they're going to be here on earth with you. And I couldn't help but think any said some of them you're not in good standings with. So he, I couldn't help but think about my dad. I hated my dad because of what he had done to me. And so growing up as a kid. So that night I begged my dad to come back to the 90 defense and all of a sudden at the night event, my dad came back. Speaker 3:     03:39         He heard the speaker speak. We had tried for a decade. Everything, counseling church, his siblings constantly saying, you got to make things right with your son. And in one hour on a stage, one hour on a stage, it prompted my dad to write me a letter and say, I'm sorry for the father up then here my son is having an impact on hundreds of kids lives and I can have an impact on my only son's life. And he asked me for a second chance to do things right. I called that man, now this is important for the list because I said, dude, you did something in one hour that nothing could happen that put my head in the last decade wouldn't happen for my dad, which is a lot like our business. We tried so many things that don't work or they take forever to work and in one hour things can change as you get on a stage. Speaker 3:     04:23         So I called him and I said, why aren't you getting this out there to everybody? He's like, I'm trying this, I'm trying this. I'm trying this, who's trying a lot of things? And I'm like, get on a stage with your ideal clients in the crowd for one hour and watch what begins to happen. I don't know what the listeners, ideal crowd, they know who it is, but his ideal crowd was principals and superintendents. That's what his ideal crowd was because they were the decision makers who controlled the budgets. So the very first stage I put them on, I was like, Ooh, I hope this works. And because I figured out how do I land this stage, how do I make him great on the stage and how do I make sure that this is one of the biggest customer acquisition channels that exist because that's where he's going to change their lives. Speaker 3:     05:03         So I got to my first stage, I worked my system back in 2003. I've been working at cents 500 educators in the room. We couldn't make an offer. Five hundred educators in our later 450 of them were turning in a physical piece of paper, what we call a contact card because we lead collected by giving away a free gift for 150 are turning in papers. And in the next two weeks, 70 to 80 new clients paying three to $5,000, just shy of a quarter of a million dollars in one hour in the last year, struggling with everything in this business. He had done $52,000 in the last year. Now here's what happened with him and it's very much like Russell, very, very much like Russell. He started getting big. It started being recognized in the educational system and he couldn't be that, so a lot of you out there solo preneurs or if it's just you on your team and you're trying to really be like, what could I do it start with stages like Russell built click funnels with being on Webinars, you know, he did webinars, there's offline and there's online stages, but here's what happened with them and what's happened with Russell's. Speaker 3:     06:09         He got too busy and he couldn't be on all of the stages that we're requesting for him. So what did we do? We created a presentation that duplicated past him. We told the stories to company's story on the front end. We talked about the content. Everybody shared the same content in the middle, but at the beginning of the presentation we mentioned the company story and then how the company's story connected to the speaker and then the rest of the presentation was the same for every single one of those speakers. Dave, before it was all said and done, not only did he grow the organization from $50,000 to $7 million in the educational system, which might not sound like a lot on an annual basis, but they don't have budgets. Speaker 2:     06:49         That's huge. It's huge. Speaker 3:     06:51         Fifty two speakers out in any given year, sharing one presentation for one hour driving business, so whether it's somebody who wants to do it on their own and go to attract more customers, or if you're like, man, I'm like Darryl and Russell and I don't want to be on the road anymore. I get too many requests. Then build a team of people that can go do it, but here's what stages does it expedites the sales cycle in 60 minutes. A lot of people, it might take them six, nine, 12 months to consume 60 minutes of content online, but when you've got a captive audience, it's called the one our launch because you've got their undivided attention for 60 minutes and we know what can happen when you get on a stage for 60 minutes. Speaker 2:     07:33         I love it and I think people part I love the most is for one, your passion behind this. I get chills. I've heard you tell that story. I think six different times that I can think of about you and your dad and I get chills every single time because you have this ability to put yourself back in that actual moment to actually experience and have the person who's listening to you experienced the same feelings, the same raw emotions that you were going through right then and it's such a skill set that I think too often a lot of us getting this idea as far as you start telling instead of of of actually sharing and telling stories and as you know, you don't have joked all the time as far as you know, facts tell and stories sell and you're a. You are the master at when it comes to actually getting stories that have impact for people to then use those stories in their, in their presentation to connect with people. Speaker 2:     08:23         And that's one of the things I love and I was out there to readmit learning from you and just seeing the way that you are so good at connecting with people beat. The one thing I know that a lot of our listeners, they've heard about this whole perfect webinar script from Russell for forever. And so we've talked a lot about webinars. The one part I want to, if you don't mind kind of address is this idea as far as how you made mention that they were able to delete, collect meaning collect when you typically couldn't sell. Most everyone I know when they think of going to speak on stage, it's a 50 slash 50 split. This is one of the things you kept slapping me in the face. And Dave, hey wait, there's Speaker 3:     08:56         more, there's more. You actually can make more money not selling directly on stage. So if you don't mind kind of explore and explain to people how they actually can use that to build their business when they can't sell. So when you can't sell, there's two things that you're either in your presentation, your co, the we have, uh, we believe in your presentation that you start with the heart and you connect with people you teach and while you're teaching, you're embedding and you're sharing case studies and you're doing all of that. You're basically selling during the year, but you're teaching, you're teaching. But then in the call to action, the only difference between when you can sell and you can't sell as you're either collecting order forms, you're collecting leads when you can sell your collecting order forms. And that's the speak to sell world. And it's only one of four types of stages that you get. Speaker 3:     09:39         Five types of stages that you can get on the speak to sell world. When you can't sell, you're collecting contact information by giving away a free gift. You give a free gift the way that gets them from a to B, not a to z because nobody's gonna read your book and nobody's gonna go look at your slides, but they will consume a piece of content for 10 minutes that will move them from a to b and when they see that piece of content that moves them from a to B, how to get a date in the next week, how to rent your house and save $10,000 a year, how to go when your first stage in 24 hours and they get that a to b all of a sudden how to build a funnel and in in one day or 10 minutes, you know when they get that a to b, they're like, oh my God, that's his or her aid to be what is going to be there a to Z. Guess who the A to z is here, the ADC and so after that free event, you're following up for 10 to 15 days with automation, with click funnels and you will begin to see sales close. Speaker 3:     10:39         If it's a low ticket item, it's all automated. If it's a high ticket item, it's phone calls and one of the things that I get the biggest compliment for today on three different interviews, they said, Pete, you opened our eyes to the fact that I can't believe I never thought I could use a stage to sell an eight, 15 or $25,000 product. And then I saw you do it. I just did it at Jj Virgin's event. We couldn't sell in our first session date. We had a hundred and 10 people in the room. We gave free gift away. We did strategy sessions on site. We did 105 strategy sessions out of 110 people in the room and we saw 40 of them go deeper with us and then in the next two weeks we saw another doesn't go deeper with us. After that, you know, another 10 or 12 go deeper with us after that. Speaker 3:     11:29         That's an unbelievable stage. And guess what, there's no splits. You know, there's no splits and that's the beautiful thing. And so I love the five types of stages. Yes, you can get paid when you get paid your lead collecting. Yes. You can do free events when you do free. Eventually collecting. Yes. You can do speak to sell. When you're doing speak to sell, there's a 50 slash 50, 60 slash 40 type of split. Yes. You can sponsored stages where you pay a fee and you get to keep 100 percent of your money or you're like click funnels, and I love this. How they built click funnels is by doing their own stages. They did, I don't know how many webinars in the first year to launch this baby, but they did their own stages and so that's the powers you. There's four of those that you can be on other people's stages and one of them is your own stage stage. Speaker 2:     12:18         I love your passion. I love how good you are, what you do, and I think the part I. I had so much fun when we're together at your, at your event, was really diving deep into all four of those. Again, human, it's we. We've done a ton as far as webinars and we've really spent a lot of time on the 50 slash 50 side, but it was the other sides that I was fascinated about, especially as we start building out a speaker team is this ability to to land stages where we may be sponsoring or were there actually is free, which I'm still. I still need to hire you more on that so we'll work out the details of that later, but for me that the real benefit is to really understand how large the opportunity is. I think too often a lot of us in the online funnel world, we think of just webinars or or being at an event and just speaking and splitting it 50 slash 50. Speaker 2:     13:05         There's such a much more broad opportunity out there and it's really why I wanted to have you on this podcast is to help people understand you're missing the boat. There's so much more opportunity. It's really why, again, pizza whole idea as far as this one, our launch formula or a workshop is set up for that one reason to really allow people the opportunity saying, listen, you actually can build your business in multiple ways besides just webinars and and a typical 50 slash 50 type of a Jv partnership type of thing. So if you don't mind, I know we've just got a few more minutes here. What are some of the things? First of all, I want to make sure people understand how they can get this. So what are they going to get? How do they get it? Where do they go? Yeah, so I'd encourage people. Speaker 3:     13:44         Well, the goal was to one our launch workshops, spell one out o n e one our launch workshop.com, and we're going to show you how to actually use stages and to grow your business. We're going to show you what to do on the stage. Most importantly, we're going to show you how to get on this. Actually not most importantly, that's the easy part. How do you get on the stage and most importantly, how do you attract customers from those stages? Because Zig Ziglar said, I've never changed someone's life with a speaking Gig, but sometimes they buy my tapes and cassettes and I got a shot at changing their lives. What? Zig understood because the data showed him the data. Meaning his son told me a couple of weeks ago, Pete that had data to prove that dad knew that stages didn't change their lives because out of every hundred testimonies that came in, only one of them was about him impacting them on the stage. Speaker 3:     14:33         Ninety nine of them were about the products and services that they invested in him with. So that's why we want stages because in one hour to expedite it exponentially exponentially expedites the sales cycle. And so the last part of what we're going to be teaching people is how to actually create customers in all of these different types of stages exist. And so we're giving away thousands access to thousands of stages and we'll be interviewing over 30 meeting planners who control thousands of stages all across the world. So you understand what they think as they're hiring speakers, so that's the one, our launch workshop.com that we're going to be doing the next couple of weeks and I'm really excited about a day, but you asked a good question. You said, what? What is this opportunity with stages in you have you have this opportunity? There's this, there's this pyramid that you can say, I either want to go do on other people's stages or I want to do my own stages. Speaker 3:     15:25         Both are right. The answer is both are right, but what you're doing other people's or your own. There are eight different offline stages that exist in eight different online stages that exist and if you can just begin to build a portfolio of one, two, or three of the offline and one, two, or three of the online, it becomes powerful. And the thing is people in the Internet marketing space typically only know about a few of those like the speak to sell once, but there's associations, there's a huge association stages. There's seminar stages, there's local stages, there's end user stages, there's media stages, there's masterminds, there's eight different offline stages, and then there's eight different online stages. There's webinars, there's trainings, there's online media, there's podcasts, there's summit's, there's all of these stages that exist and what we basically are showing you how to do is how do you go get on other people's stages and I'll tell you the key is when they realize that you can solve a problem for their community, they'll open it up for you to be on their stage. Speaker 3:     16:27         Dasia dates, letting me do a round table at clip, at funnel hacking live because he knows I'll provide value because he's seen me and what I provide and so there's this opportunity. J Dave have stages that exist everywhere and the big thing that will get really clear on the in the, in the, in this launch workshop is what's your stage portfolio? Because for Russell it's two to three offline stages a year and that's it. But for the speaking team, it's hundreds of stages for them. You know, for me this year it was 17 to 18 offline stages and I did 125 online stages, kind of like Russell did they get click funnels starting next year. That'll shift for me because now I have three speakers that are going out on my behalf to for Stu Mclaren. He's like, dude, I want to do four stages and I want them to be for big stages and that's it, and that will move the needle in his business on a big way. So for everybody in the season of life they're in, I want you to understand that this is so many stages and you don't even realize how many exists and we're gonna help you get really clear on your portfolio in this training. Speaker 2:     17:33         I love it. For me, one of the things I get the most out of you, pete, is the idea as far as expanding my mindset with how many additional opportunities there were, and then the other thing was exactly how to get on those stages. I think a lot of the people I talk to says, well, I've got my presentation and I questioned whether you really do, but I'll leave that to let him deal with that. Whether you have your presentation pizza deal, but one thing I can't say that pizza, amazing that is helping you actually get on stages and teaching you how to get on stages. As I mentioned, we've hired will have probably some of the neighborhood of 15, 15, possibly even 20 different speakers this year to try to get on 500 stages and in 2019 and it's all because of pete and his skill set and helping us get on those stages. Speaker 2:     18:15         That's allowing us to basically have a complete huge event team that's going to be going out this year again to spread click funnels, message to the world and we're so excited to be working with Pete and with advanced have reached team and really spending that kind of time. I can tell you if for me, if I was to, you and I talked back and forth as far as my past and different boards. I've been involved in real estate. I've been involved in financial services I can tell and a lot of internet marketing, every single business I've ever been in has always had a speaking component to it and it's the only way you can truly scale a business, so understanding that those guys who are listening right now, if you have a product or a service and you think you're just doing it online, I can tell you you can 10 to 20 times what you're doing online by adding the speaking component to it. Speaker 2:     18:59         There's. You get so much more credibility. You have so much more of an authority figure when you start speaking and talking to people and they hear you, they see you. They connect. It's a relationship built. I mean, I go on and on about the importance of stages. It's again against the whole reason why a higher peak was to help us take our stages to the next level. So again, if you guys are in that situation where you're trying to scale your business, you're trying to add additional revenue, by all means, check it out. Again, it's a one hour launch workshop against one hour long. H O u r launch workshop, is that right? Speaker 3:     19:29         Yeah, one hour launch workshop.com. And Dave, what I would say, and I got a funny story with data, but like I want to really. I've got a really funny story. I want to drive home like the power of the one hour launch, like forget that one our launch. So Dave calls me a couple of years ago. He's been, he's become a friend of mine. Like I'm so glad that Keith Yackey introduced us. We're going to be doing something cool this year at an event and we're going to be doing a lot of cool things, but in being able to help the speaking team, but they've called me a couple of years ago, a year and a half ago, year and seven months ago. I was like, dude, you never believe it. We just did 900 k on this stage and a lot of you know that because it was the first time at 10 x. Speaker 3:     20:07         and I'm like, all right, he's just motivated me. So watch this. No, this is fun. And you've helped a lot of organizations or individuals go from zero to six using state agency or to seven zero to eight overall in their business. And we've never taken seeing someone go from zero to nine, I believe. I believe click funnels can be that organization. But here's the thing. We've seen a lot. We had seen a few million dollar stages at that point. I had seen it from our clients and I'm like okay, he did 900 k, I had a big stage coming up this January, this past January. And I'm like okay, I just want to be able to tell Dave what I did. And so Michael Phelps was the opening keynote. Howie Mendell was the closing keynote. I was the in the middle of that. Speaker 3:     20:49         And by the way, they treat me dates. They paid me to be on that stage because of the value I provide and they let me talk about my products and services. And when it was all set in that said and done, that was a seven figure stage. We did over a million dollars from that stage. And I was like, yes, the one hour and I got Dave and Russell and then obviously all of you know the story, like I know Russell doesn't do physical stages much, but when he does, I think that's a commercial, but when he does a million dollars plus in, I am so excited to see what Russell does this year as well. And so like, look at your leader. He built his company in the first year on digital stages. Look at them in physical stages. When he does them, he knocks it out of the park, the one our launch really works. And so dave, thanks for having me. I love to have a lot of people join us in that one hour launch workshop name. Speaker 2:     21:46         I love it again. So it's one our launch workshop.com. Go there, check it out. Uh, for one it's built on click funnels or it better be right. Maybe it's Speaker 3:     21:55         well pieces of it or not. So yes, I'm a, I'm a two comma club guy. Speaker 2:     22:07         I would love to get you to our eight feet. I should've had a ring here that, uh, I just, in fact, we just got a new ring for Russell actually as I'll show it to you later. Speaker 3:     22:17         Hey, that stage I just talked about, for me, that stage was one with a click funnels page. They actually scheduled a call to see if they wanted me as a speaker on a clickfunnels page because our stage campaign is all built within clickfunnels self. Man, it's, I'm a big advocate of Cleveland. Speaker 2:     22:34         It's just fun for me. I can tell you again, I bet you were such a dear friend and I love spending time with you. I appreciate. I know you're limited in the middle of the launch right now and I know how busy things are. You've got a million other interviews and podcasts and stuff going on. I appreciate you taking the time today. Again, people, anyone who's listened to this, I hold back anything that does these days, it's been so much fun. Uh, we actually are a crazy yacht coming up here with him and all this other stuff. He's always sucking money out of me some way or the other. Anyways, bottom line is again, go ahead and check out one hour launch workshop.com. I regardless, you've got to be doing stages and if you're not exactly sure how to do it. Pizza. The Guy I hired him and I totally. That'd be opportunity spending time out there with both Chris and miles. Spend three days with them. God knows what he's talking about when it comes to stage it, so check out one hour launch workshop. Again, Pete, always so much fun having any other parting words before we let you go. Speaker 3:     23:31         Oh Man. Dave, thanks so much and I just thank y'all for. I'm excited to see click funnels in 2019 and the game plan that you have with this powerhouse speaking teams. So Speaker 2:     23:41         thanks man. We'll talk soon. All right everybody, thank you so much for taking Speaker 4:     23:46         the time to listen to podcasts. If you don't mind, could you please share this with others? Rate and review this podcast on itunes. It means the world to me or I'm trying to get to as a million downloads here in the next few months and just crush through over 650,000 and I just want to get the next few 100,000 so we can get to a million downloads and see really what I can do to help improve and get this out to more people at the same time. If there's a topic, there's something you'd like me to share or someone you'd like me to interview, by all means, just reach out to me on facebook. You can pm me and I'll be more than happy to take any of your feedback as well as if there's people like me to interview more than happy to reach out and have that conversation with you. So again, go to Itunes, rate and review this, share this podcast with others and let me know how else I can improve this or I can do to make this better for you guys. Thanks.

Why Dave Decided to talk to Brett:  Brett Curry is the CEO of OMG Commerce, a digital marketing agency and Google Premier Partner. He is also the host of the eCommerce Evolution Podcast highlighting what’s new and what’s next in eCommerce.  He and his team manage Google, Amazon, and YouTube ad campaigns for over 100 growing brands. Brett shares his knowledge of creating ads, what works and what doesn’t, and best practices for advertising. Tips and Tricks for You and Your Business: Using Youtube To Prospect: The Mysterious Black Box (1:20) Make Yourself Clear- What Is Your Product Is About? (13:22) Easiest Ways To Get Customers From Youtube To Your Product: (17:38) Tips For Creating Videos: (19:32) Quotable Moments: "Are you saying enough to make someone say-- hey this is different, unique, and I want to find out more about it." "Do something in the first 5 seconds to arrest someone on your product." "If you have a great video or funnel, I believe now is the time to use youtube." Other Tidbits: Brett goes into great detail on intent based targeting--targeting people on Youtube based on their google search history. He discusses how to properly build successful campaign advertising videos and gives wonderful advice on how to make them very effective. Links: FunnelHackerRadio.com FunnelHackerRadio.com/freetrial FunnelHackerRadio.com/dreamcar ---Transcript--- Speaker 1:     00:00         Welcome to funnel hacker radio podcast, where we go behind the scenes and uncover the tactics and strategies top entrepreneurs are using to make more sales, dominate their markets, and how you can get those same results. Here's your host, Dave Woodward. Everybody. Welcome back to it. Speaker 2:     00:18         Funnel Hacker radio. This is going to be a fun, fun experience because it's a dear friend of mine. I wanted to do she guys too. I've known him for years and the guys absolutely crushing it in ecommerce eyes. Got his own. He's a CEO of Omg Commerce to digital market agency. You also is the host of the ecommerce evolution podcast. Welcome to show Mr Brett Curry. Welcome, Brett. Speaker 3:     00:36         Dave, what's up man? So excited to be here. This is gonna. Be Fun. Speaker 2:     00:40         It is so crazy. I remember, Gosh, I think. I think we met way back in the DOTCOM secrets local era. It was, Speaker 3:     00:48         yeah. I was trying to remember dates. I'm terrible with dates, but I think it was 2009, 2010. That's. We're working closely with Russell on some dotcom secrets, local stuff and we started hanging out and a crazy where our paths have taken a sense then, but that was fun. Fun Times. Speaker 2:     01:04         You guys have a killer agency that has just been crushing it for quite some time. You've done everything from, from TV, from local media to know you've got a ton of articles out there. You're doing this obviously, right? Niggas really specialized in the whole physical products on ecommerce, but one of the things I, if you're alright with I'd love to dive into and one of things you're kind of talking about before and that's this whole youtube thing and it's kind of this mysterious black box everyone talks about, but you have. You've mastered this thing, so I'm going to dive right in. Are you okay with that? Speaker 3:     01:30         Let's do it. Yeah. Love, love talking to you to my favorite. It is the marketing topic of choice for me to nerd out on right now and I like talking all things marketing, but youtube is at the top. Speaker 2:     01:42         Well how do you use it as a prospecting channel? That's one thing I know a lot of people struggle with. How do I actually use it to prospect? Speaker 3:     01:49         Yeah. So it's interesting, you know, I think youtube has been a powerful channel for years and years if you're good at creating content. So, you know, if you go back to the Gary Vee days, you know, if you're a Gary v and he built Wine Library TV and just really launched his career on Youtube and they're a lot of other content creators. We've done kind of the same thing. And so that, that's been a powerful youtube would powerful on, on that front for a long time. Uh, but, but recently, you know, Google's come out with some ad formats that are really powerful. And namely the ad format we use is called Tru vue and it's called trueview. It's, everybody's seen it, you know, if you go to youtube, you're going to watch a music video or, or a cat video or whatever your video of choices. You're going to youtube and check that out. Speaker 3:     02:37         It's the ad that pops up before that. So it's the pre roll, uh, in stream ad is what they're called. Those are the ones that are skipable. So, so I Bet Dave Woodward, you've had the experience where one of those ads pop up and you think, curse you advertiser. I just want to walk my work avenue, but something about the ad hooks you in that first five seconds, I'm magical. Five second window it you and you watched the whole thing. A lot of them you'd probably skip and that's fine. Um, but the beauty of that is from an advertising standpoint, you don't pay if someone skips, so you only pay if someone watches the ad or if they clicked through to your site so that they engage with it before you as an advertiser pay. So that's what we're using. We're using truview in a lot of different capacities. Speaker 3:     03:20         And the beauty of this is a one, the youtube audience is massive. I mean everybody's on youtube billion users worldwide on a monthly basis, 18 to 49 year olds. You know, I saw a stat more people watch youtube during prime time, then the top TV, top 10 TV goes combined. Um, I even saw it turn, which is interesting for 13 to 17 year olds, like 70 percent of them are on youtube versus only about 50 percent on facebook for that younger demographic, which, which is interesting. Um, but anyway, so we're using varieties of the trueview ad format and kind of harnessing that massive audience and then harnessing what Google knows about it's users has got some amazing targeting options now on youtube and we're kind of combining that to create some, uh, some ad magic for people. So I, it, I know that most people kind of lean first to facebook because of all the data that's there. Speaker 3:     04:18         What types, how does it compare from facebook to youtube? And you'd made mention earlier that you're actually seeing a lot of people starting to shift dollars from facebook to youtube. So kind of explain how that. Yeah. And so, you know, just to be fair, I think, I think facebook is so extremely powerful. I think most businesses need to use facebook. I don't know, facebook, myself, I've been at Google ads guy for forever and so it was a natural extension that, uh, I did the TV and radio back in the day as you alluded to as well. But, um, you know, some of the audience targeting is pretty comparable for youtube to facebook. So things like lookalike audiences as an example where, you know, you can upload your customer list to Facebook, they'll generate a lookalike audience for you. Google has something similar, only they call it a similar audience where you can upload, Hey, these are my buyers, these are my subscribers, these or whoever who will build a similar audience to that. Speaker 3:     05:08         So that's nice. Um, any kind of interest based targeting. So, so all of the interest based targeting you can do on facebook, you can do something similar on, on Google. Um, in fact, one of my favorite audience types is called a custom affinity audience and that's where you can go grab websites that you feel like your ideal customer, likely frequency. So it could be, you know, if we're in the workout space, it could be, you know, the particular brand of, of a workout site, you're looking for a different crossfit websites and things like that or um, you know, it can be conservative news websites if you got an, you know, an outdoor product or something like that. So you're, you're building a list of a and you're telling Google, hey, build an audience for me, like those people to visit these websites. And of course Google knows who visits every website, right? Speaker 3:     05:55         So they can build that list. I'm really, well now one of the things that Google has the facebook does not have is what's called a intent based targeting and one singular audience called it customer intent audience. And that's where you can target people on Youtube based on their google search history. So I don't know about you. Yeah. So this is just totally awesome. So do you, Dave, do you, are you a youtube user? Do you get on youtube much? Not as much as I as my kids there. Yeah. That's cool. So, uh, you know, when I'm on Youtube I'm mainly looking at music videos of my kids don't that, that I think this does line up with that trend I talked about earlier, like the 13 to 17 year olds, they're, they're all over youtube. My kids are looking at life hack videos and how to fix your hair and how to pick up girls. Speaker 3:     06:42         My team looking at things like that, I'm usually looking at like a music video or sports or, or how to or something like that. My search behavior on Google's very different. Like I'll search for every product that I want on Google and stuff. Well now you can target people based on what they're searching for on Google when they're on youtube. So if we've got someone who's selling a, you know, some type of apparel, a winter coats a week, we could then pull a list of top keywords that someone might be typing in on Google. We can then give that to google, build an audience around that, and then those people, the next time they're on youtube, we can run our pre roll or instream ad to that audience. It, it is phenomenal and there's so many creative ways you can approach that. For most of our clients, that's the best audience to run it or, or close to it, a accustomed intent audience because you can kind of, based on the keywords you, you're using kind of pick people at different stages of the funnel and then, and then so you know, they're there at least in the market to some degree. Speaker 3:     07:44         Then you hit them with a powerful video ad. It's just, it's an awesome combination. Is that work best for physical products or does it, does it matter? Well, I don't know that it matters. I mean I've seen some case studies so we were a google premier partner and we have our google reps come into our offices about four times a year and they do case studies and stuff and I got, I got to read a case study from Hawaiian Airlines and they're using this type of targeting and it's phenomenally well for them. Uh, but. But my agency, we work with physical product sellers. That's what we do. That's what I know. But it, it'll work for any business. I'm pretty confident, I mean as long as the, as long as your message is clearly communicated visually, as long as, as long as video is a good medium to communicate your message that I think you can, you can find the targeting that, that works for your business. But I mean, you know, we're, we're doing, uh, we're talking about Ezra firestone prior to hitting record. Good friend of mine been, been doing all his google traffic now for years. We run all the youtube for boom cosmetics. So yeah. Yeah. So, and then that's it. You guys are doing all that. Yeah. So of really. Well for them it was all hands. So I'm going to have to. Speaker 3:     08:56         Yeah. You know, so he now he's a smart marketer obviously when that same company, but he definitely inspires a lot of things, but we're the ones kind of pressing the buttons and pulling the levers. So it could be skincare, it could be a wedding ring, it could be auto product, it could be, you know, we're, we're all over the map, but, but no, I think if I wasn't, if I owned a business, if I was using click funnels, like I know most of your listeners are, if my story can be told, well visually I would try, I would try youtube to see if it see if it would work well for a person who wants to kind of get started on that. Where do they go and how long did the videos you have to be, how professional they have to be made, that kind of stuff. Speaker 3:     09:40         Yeah. Great question. So the, the video does have to be good and what I mean by that is it has to resonate, you know, it has to compel someone to say who I one VAT or, or at least I want to check that out. I want to look a little bit further at that product or that service. So it does have to be compelling. It does not have to cost you a fortune and I would almost advise against that. Um, you know, we, um, we do ecommerce for a long time. One of my, uh, favorite traffic sources, Google shopping, I don't know if he ever spend with Google shopping, but the product listing ads you searched for job search for a particular type of watch and then you get the little product images and stuff. Those ads work almost, no matter what, like if you have a, um, you know, if you're kind of bad at Google shopping, it'll still work pretty well for you. Speaker 3:     10:30         Uh, not the case with Youtube, you know, if you throw up a, a crummy video that just doesn't move people, it's not going to work. It just isn't. Um, we, we've seen, you know, we're talking about audiences earlier and how important that is. I've seen though where we get the same audience targeting, but two different ads, one that really connects with people, one that doesn't and the results are staggering. No one will, one will never get off the ground and the other one will scale to, you know, spending $8,000 a day, you know, um, profitably. So, uh, there, there are some principals there. I mean, I think you need to, you need to hook people in the first five seconds, you to communicate a clear benefit. You'd have some testimonial elements you need to overcome, objections, you'd have a clear call to action, but it doesn't have to be, you don't have to hire some fancy ad agency to come and shoot this, this video, uh, one of, one of the best videos we're running now for a client. Speaker 3:     11:22         It's 100 percent client testimonials shot with an iphone or whatever, phone, iphone, android mixing there too, which is fine. But, you know, we got all these clips of customer St Wow. Look at this product and this application that we love this. So we just, we mix those together with a cool intro, cool outro, and that's it. And it works. So there's not like a set, you know, you don't even have explosions and, and, and special special effects and CGI and stuff like that. It just, it needs to resonate with. So it does have to be a good ad, but it does not have to be expensive. Um, and, and so, and then you ask about ideal link. I'm the way, the way the pricing works, the way you're billed as an advertiser, someone has to watch at least 30 seconds of the commercial, uh, before you build the 30 seconds or the whole video, whichever comes first. Speaker 3:     12:11         Um, you know, on, on facebook, facebook counts of you after three seconds, I believe. So that's another kind of difference in the two. Youtube counts as a view if it's, if it's over 30 or the whole video, uh, but a lot of the videos we're seeing that work are in that, you know, 30 to 92nd range. Most of that are a little over a minute. Really. The key is, are you saying enough? Are you saying enough to make someone say, hey, this is different, this is unique. I want to find out more about it. Sometimes you can't quite do that in 30 seconds. Um, you know, if you go, if you look at like the, you know, with the harmon brothers have done or like, like the click funnels video. Did you guys have made, you know, um, those were what, like two to three minutes kind of harm brothers. Speaker 3:     12:54         And most of the videos about three minutes, you know, and that's, that can work too, a lot of our clients that they're their most successful videos or in the minute to minute 30 range. Um, and then uh, but we have some people like Ezra, you know, we've, we've tested some videos that are, that are north of five minutes a really. Yeah. Yeah. But, but I would say like stick within that kind of 60 to 92nd range is ideal. Yeah. That's fantastic. So when you're looking at the creation of that, I know it's typically, how long do you have before you skip the ad? Is it, it's five seconds. So pretty captivating those first five seconds to say I'm willing to eat the rest of this. Yeah. And my philosophy is we people out like may make some kind of statement or, or do something in the first five seconds where people that aren't interested, they'll click skip, right? Speaker 3:     13:47         Because if they're not actually you want to pay for it. Right? You've got that option here to not pay for someone if they're not interested. So I like to open with a, with a question with some kind of grabbing statement, like make it pretty clear right up front, you know, what you're doing, what, what it's about. This is about this new type of wedding ring or this is about this new skincare product or whatever it may make that clear right from the get go and you do have, you do have five seconds. So we had one client a show us, so they were in the outdoor space and they showed us this video that the first five seconds was the animation of their logo. The logo was doing all this stuff. We're like, yeah, that's not going to work. Nobody, nobody cares about your logo a have the logo there. Speaker 3:     14:29         You might get some brand again, but do something to capture them. Some kind of benefit statement, some kind of question, some kind of a, are you tired of this, you know, uh, can, can you not sleep at night because of x or whatever. Like some kind of something to arrest someone in those first five seconds that somebody that also makes someone who would say, no, I don't care about that product. Make them skip. That's great. Let's, let's get those people to move on and let's not, let's not for them. So yeah, you got five seconds. So that, that, that is also interesting to think about, okay, here's the angle of my commercial here, the benefits I'm going to work in, what's my opener going to be? And, and that's where I think you lead with a question or, or a testimonial or, or, or some kind of a, a grabber, you know, never do this again. Speaker 3:     15:11         Or, or what if you could avoid this forever? What if you could stop paying so much for whatever. So something to really hook them right in the right at the beginning is important. Back to the good old direct response marketing headlines, man. It is, it is. And so, you know, this can be a, this could be a spokesperson, you know, on camera looking at you saying this directly. It could be a combination of of that and text on the screen. I like. I like a combination typically, but yeah, it's so cool. I'm, I'm a, I'm a student of direct response. I know you are as well Dave, and I've read some of the classes even got like 22 immutable laws of branding on my desk and so Joseph sugarman books of course way back when, like triggers. That's an awesome book. Triggers. But anyway, a lot of the principles still apply, right? Speaker 3:     15:57         Like, like human nature hasn't changed a whole lot and people still either want to avoid pain or gain pleasure. Right. So thinking about these appeals a bit, none of that changes. It's just a new format and in a new medium and a new, you know, new audience targeting and things like that. But so, but yeah, our philosophy is let's, let's build it with direct response elements, but let's also build your brand in the process because one of the interesting side benefits, Dave, the worst thing is after someone runs on youtube a lot where we're usually running youtube campaigns in Google ads, so search and shopping stuff after they run youtube for three or four or five weeks, they're branded search campaigns will often increase by double. So people say, I didn't know if that was just Google's algorithm basically rewarding you for having spent money. Speaker 3:     16:47         There are. So yeah, probably not. But what, what, uh, what, what they are doing is, you know, you have more people that are aware of your product, so now they're searching for you. So that's cool. Still top of funnel for the book. We're talking about it. Yeah. So now I'm, I'm introduced to your product. I'm not ready to buy right now, but if I am interested in my next step is probably to go search for it. So we had one client who got pretty aggressive with youtube and they're branded campaigns. So people searching for them by name, uh, increased by four x in the first month and then they're not a small brand. Um, so it was really interesting. But, um, but yeah, it's one of those things that it does bleed over into other, other channels as well. So it's kind of a kind of a halo effect, you know, from, from Youtube ads. Speaker 3:     17:30         I love that. So when a person's on a youtube ad, is it, are you able to click the link? How do they, what's ease way of getting it from Youtube off youtube to where you want them to go? Yep. So there are there kind of three main campaigns, subtypes when you're running trueview. So Trivia, again, they're the, they're the instream are those pre roll videos we've been talking about. So there's, there's, um, standard trueview, which there's, you can have like a little companion banner banner that's off to the side. You have kind of a link over the video. People can click on that and go to your site or your channel or whatever you wanna do. So that's okay. That's kind of, that's been around a while. It's, it's okay. Um, the next option is called Tru Vue for shopping. So this is again for physical product businesses, but it's a combination of those youtube ads and then Google shopping. Speaker 3:     18:18         So often the upper right or over the video you've got your product listing ads or, or Google shopping ads. Um, but my favorite format and this will work for ecommerce or non ecommerce is what's called truview for action and that's where in the upper right on desktop or over the video and mobile, you've got a strong call to action button. So it's learn more. Shop now, save now whenever you get to control that button and there's a companion banner and then you put a headline there too. So it's pretty prepared against some good real estate there. And the beauty of that format is you can actually bid on a CPA target. So yeah, you can tell Google, hey, I'm willing, I want to, I want to hit the CBA target now you're going to pay for the impressions and the clicks like, so you're not, you're not only paying a CPA. Speaker 3:     19:04         That's some confusion people have. But I found Google is pretty good at hitting that CPA target. If you have good audience targeting in a good video overtime you can, you can hit your CPA target. Um, so, so that attribute for action is typically the best way. Like if you're, if you're looking to build your funnel to send people into the top of your funnel or, or whatever, I would, I would probably choose truview for action as the campaign subtype. Oh, that's awesome. Yeah. As you take a look at that, you've been doing this a long time. What are some of the tips for people as far as creating the video itself? What? Any specific tips you'd say as far as the video goes? And we kind of in an odd route, a couple of different things, but what specific. Yeah, take, take your time there. Speaker 3:     19:48         Um, another one of my favorite, a formats to follow for video is just interjecting a bunch of customer testimonials. Right? So that there's a great video for grammarly. Have you ever seen grammarly? They're not a client or anything, but they, it's software that helps you with your grammar mistakes. So you can, you can blue, it's just an add onto your browser, but as you're typing in in huge email or whatever, it's going to correct your mistakes for you, which is handy for a lot of people. Um, so the, the video that they have that they run on youtube, it's really just, it's like a bunch of different scenarios. It's the college student, it's the professional, you know, up and comer. It's the guy looking to get a job and there is just saying, you know, it's nice when I'm sending my email for my, my, my resume with my resume to catch all the mistakes that I'm making or it catches mistakes I didn't even know I was making. Speaker 3:     20:39         So it kind of, as you look at it, it's like a combination of the most commented on things. So you kind of look at what are people saying about your product and structure that structure, the ad that way. Um, so a couple of things that I would consider is one, I would, I would show the ad to people that are in your market before you run it. So, so, so I have some people preview it and not, not like employees or, or just friends or whatever, but people who are in your market and ask them, you know, what their, what their thoughts are, feelings are things like that. Um, uh, but, but going back to some of the things I mentioned before, you know, it's got to have that arresting opener. It's got to be very benefit oriented and lead with the strongest benefit, you know. Speaker 3:     21:19         So like Geico as an example, you know, they're always talking about cost savings. So 50 percent or 50 minutes could save you 15 percent or more on car insurance. Don't talk about all the other stuff as much the hammer on that, that cost savings because they've determined that's what causes people to switch. That's the trigger that causes someone to pick up the phone or, or we're going line. And so what is the strongest benefit for your product? Lead with that hammer on that. Come back to that, uh, get some social proof in there. So, so I like, I like endorsements, like actual customer testimonials. Um, and then I like some kind of objection handling. So if you think about these are the top one to two to three objections that someone has so, so, and again you kind of go back to your customer on this where people say, Hey, I'm worried that this is going to break too soon or will it last or whatever. Speaker 3:     22:07         And so, so if the, if that's a concern, you talk about your guarantee, you know that hey we've got a, we've got a 10 year guarantee or whatever. No, no questions asked, that type of thing. So what are the objections someone has bring those up and answer those, solve those right there in the video and then, and then some kind of strong call to action. So it's always interesting to me like you wouldn't think this would be necessary but like a video with a call to action versus one without the differences is pretty drastic. Like even just a, hey, check it out now, go, go and you design your own whatever, you know, go to our little style guide and design your own thing or go download this report or go check this out or go get free shipping or go get, go get five of these triathlons and back the ones that don't fit or something like that. Speaker 3:     22:50         Um, so some strong call to action. You got to end with that. Um, and, and then one other kind of little tip that we sometimes do is we'll now we kinda got a pretty good sense like, hey, this video is likely to work a, nobody's ever always right there you got it, you had a test that you get to know are you going to get the market decides ultimately not, not us as marketers, but um, we'll often run ads to our remarketing audiences first just to see like, what is he like, you know, because likely it's not going to just crash and burn. You're going to spend that much money, but you can at least see, okay, what's the view rate? Are People engaging with us? We, you know, uh, and, and then then decide, okay, this probably isn't worth rolling out to a bigger audience at this point. Um, so yeah, just just go a couple of tips and. But I can totally geek out on video production all day. I, we don't do video production just, just so you know, we're, we're more on the running the campaign side and stuff, but I love, I love the creative aspect and feel like got a pretty good handle on what, what works and what doesn't. So Speaker 2:     23:47         that's it. That's awesome. I know it was funny when we were even just doing some of the content that we put out there on youtube, like our funnel hacker TV. At first we didn't even make, make any mention as far as make sure you subscribe down below next episode or there like that. It's been crazy. Just that, just tell them to subscribe or to ring the Bell and get notifications. Those little tiny things totally changed the whole game. For us. It is sit down like 50 or 60 videos before we ever thought we should tell them what the video, even though it's free, even though it's free Speaker 3:     24:18         and even though the subscribe button is there, they still need to be told. It's like people need permission or they need to know like that's what you want them to do. Or maybe they're just not thinking about it, but you make it a simple ask a. I mean it seems like it shouldn't have to be that way, but. But it is so yeah, make the ask, make that call to action of some kind. It'll make a huge difference. Speaker 2:     24:40         Well that's awesome. Well Brett, anything else before we kind of wrap things up here? Speaker 3:     24:44         Man, it's just uh, you know, I think if you have the ability, if you have a product that works for video, which most do, if you tell your story in a unique way through video, I think now's the time to test youtube. It's still in its early stages. There's not a lot of people are, you know, compared to facebook on a lot of people advertising on youtube, you know, facebook is running into, you know, Max add capacity in the newsfeed is what I'm hearing a lot of cases and prices are going up and things like that. And again, I'm not, I'm not disparaging facebook. We use facebook, we love it. There's almost unlimited inventory on, on youtube too and just, just some ideas and so many people. So if you have a good video, if you have a good funnel built out, I think now's the time to test youtube, you know, and, and maybe one of the things you do is you get, get on and start, start kind of clicking around on youtube and look for some of those good pre roll videos, the videos that strike you and capture you and uh, and, and, and kind of look to mimic those. Speaker 3:     25:43         So. Speaker 2:     25:45         Well that's awesome. But I appreciate it. A 10 again, if people want to find out more information, where do they go? Speaker 3:     25:50         Yeah, best place is just go over to omg commerce.com. That's our, our sites. Check that out there, get some resources and stuff. You can also google me, Brett Curry, a cso of my articles and stuff on youtube and Google shopping and whatnot, and then I do have a podcast, a ecommerce evolution, so we talk all things ecommerce, so check that out as well. Speaker 2:     26:10         Awesome. Well Brad, again, so great. Can you again, we'll connect. I'm sure one of the seminars or events that were at. I'm sure we'll see each other around, so thanks again for your time. Appreciate it. Speaker 3:     26:20         Yeah, really glad to be here. Thanks for the invite and we'll. We'll chat soon. Speaker 4:     26:24         Hey everybody. Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to podcasts. If you don't mind, could you please share this with others, rate and review this podcast on itunes. It means the world to me or I'm trying to get to as a million downloads here in the next few months and just crush through over $650,000 and I just want to get that next few 100 so we can get to a million downloads and see really what I can do to help improve and and get this out to more people. At the same time, if there's a topic, there's something you'd like me to share or someone you'd like me to interview, by all means, just reach out to me on facebook. You can pm me and I'm more than happy to take any of your feedback as well as at the people like me to interview more than happy to reach out and have that conversation with you. So again, go to Itunes, rate and review this, share this podcast with others and let me know how else I can improve this or can do to make this better for you guys. Thanks.

Why Dave Decided to talk to Hailey: Head of Marketing at Improvado.io and Co-Founder of Growth Marketing Pro, Hailey Friedman has helped hundreds of companies grow their bottom line through digital marketing. Hailey will discuss digital marketing basics and how to integrate it into your funnel, as well as give her tips on what works and what doesn’t when you are marketing your business. Tips and Tricks for You and Your Business: How to get customers (1:25) Getting started with Google Ads (6:25) What is most important in a marketing funnel (10:45) The allowable cost per acquisition (16:40) Quotable Moments: "Websites are dying" "As a marketer, I never send traffic to a website" Other Tidbits: Websites are becoming obsolete.  Instead of sending customers to a website, try sending them to a landing page that is designed specifically to push them down a sales funnel. Links: FunnelHackerRadio.com FunnelHackerRadio.com/freetrial FunnelHackerRadio.com/dreamcar ---Transcript--- Speaker 1:   00:00     Welcome to funnel hacker radio podcast, where we go behind the scenes and uncover the tactics and strategies top entrepreneurs are using to make more sales, dominate their markets, and how you can get those same results. Here's your host, Dave Woodward. Art, everybody. Welcome back to funnel hacker Speaker 2:   00:19     radio. I'm your host Dave Woodward, and today have the opportunity to having Hailey Friedman on the show. Haley, welcome to the show. Speaker 3:   00:23     Thanks for having me. Speaker 2:   00:26     I'm excited. So Haley's the head marketing or is head of marketing over at [inaudible] dot io. She's also the cofounder of growth marketing pro where she sells literally hundreds of companies grow their bottom line through digital marketing is one of the main reasons we wanted to have her on today is what you thought about really growing your audience. In addition to that, we're going to talk about some of the metrics and things that she's said loves to geek out on. So in addition to that, she also serves as the president Badass marketers and founders and I would just write, and I think you said there's over like 20,000 members that right? Speaker 3:   00:54     Yeah. There's 20,000 members globally. Speaker 2:   00:56     Crazy and I think you're running the, the primary group up in the Silicon Valley area. Speaker 3:   01:01     Yeah. I'm the president of the San Francisco chapter. Speaker 2:   01:05     Awesome. Well, I'm going to dive right into this and one of the things you and I were talking about just briefly here was this whole idea as far as how to get customers. I think that's the biggest struggle most people have is they get this wonderful idea and trying to find a way of, of getting that out to the market. So what are some of the things that you've seen? I know you spend a lot of time looking at different platforms and technology and it's not as much about the tech as it is about some of the other stuff. So how do you actually help people get customers? Speaker 3:   01:33     Yeah, I mean this is a challenge that I personally faced myself. I was a founder. Um, I tried to start something on my own and the biggest lesson that I took away from it was no, you can have an incredible team and you can have an amazing product, but if you don't know how to get customers and you don't have anything worth very much at all. So that's kind of what set me off on this journey to figure out like how do you get Joe Schmoe to buy something and I'm just like big gray box that I really did not understand and to an unwrapped how, how this works. And so, um, I just, I lived across the country from New York to San Francisco. I joined a startup at the ground floor. I just became a sponge and I just learned everything that I possibly could about marketing. Speaker 3:   02:18     I read blogs and conferences and the experts. Um, and then I implemented them not only at my job but for my friends and my family, like anyone who would let me. And I really kind of got my feet wet, figuring, figuring this stuff out. And so there's, there's really nothing better than trial and error. You learn a lot, but at this point I've probably done it like so many times that I've gathered this book of knowledge in my brain about what actually works and what doesn't work and it really depends on what the part of it that I think is so fun is that it's different for every business. Every business has different customers. You have different goals, you have different marketing budget and resources timeline that you need to hit those goals. And so like all those things need to be considered when you're figuring out what is the lowest hanging fruit thing I can do to get customers. Speaker 3:   03:08     And so it's hard to give a blanket statement, which is why through growth marketing pro we're often helping founders one off like marketing marketers and founders that need one off helpful. We'll, we'll customize a plan for them. But overall I like to think of it like this. Like where is the highest intent? Customers like where, where are your highest intent customers? So for example, um, referral programs always have the highest intent because people who are visiting your website that were referred by a friend and they were already sold and educated by their close friend or family and now they're visiting your site and they're going to convert at like 25 percent, whereas the average trapped under convert converted one percent. So if you already have customers start a referral program, that's how you'll get like the highest intent people to your website. Speaker 2:   04:03     Similar to I hear a ton about different types of referral programs. What are some of the things and referral problems you've seen that really work well? Speaker 3:   04:11     Yeah. So surprisingly people are not as motivated to referred friends when you pay them as much as they are to offer something of value to their friend. So people in when, when they're socially interacting with friends, they want to kind of be able to gift them something. So if you can create that vibe, then you're, your referral program will likely perform better. Speaker 2:   04:40     I've seen that they get a discount and you get a discount at the same time by offering a coupon code like that. Speaker 3:   04:51     Yeah, definitely. Um, and that works better than just having you get a discount and nothing for your friend. Yeah. Um, yeah. So I think, um, referral programs can be really difficult to track if you are going to implement one. I recommend using a tool I've used ambassador in the past. There's a lot of different tools you could use but definitely can get really hairy if you don't get super organized with your tracking links and things. So I'm tracking can become a nightmare. But um, yeah, along the same lines of, of high intent channels, I think affiliate programs with you can get like bloggers and influencers mentioning your product and sending traffic. That's also a great way to get like really trustworthy people doing the selling for you kind of thing. So those are high intent and then, you know, if you're looking at paid channels, if you have a budget and you're trying to figure out, you know, do I spend money on Google ads or do I spend money on facebook or, or whatever. Um, again, like think about intent, you know, someone who is searching a specific keyword related to your business as far higher intent than someone who's just browsing through facebook looking their friends' photos. Right? So a while facebook is not some channel for a lot of things. I would if there is search volume related to your product, then I would always recommend starting with intense is highest, which would be on google ads Speaker 2:   06:13     in Google ads seem to be the holy grail, but at the same time it's one most confusing things for most marketers. Everyone seems to kind of first of all go to facebook. It's easier to work with and things as you've worked inside of the Google ad network and the platform. What are some of the things that you've seen that work really well for a person who's just trying to kind of get the feet wet with Google? Where would you tell them that they should start? Speaker 3:   06:35     Yeah. I always start with like your branded keywords that someone literally searches for the name of your brand. You want to be there and then your competitors' keywords. So the names of your competitors, you want to be there too. That's content, lowest hanging fruit. Those people are already well educated, either about the name of your business or the name of your competitors. And so that's always the best place to start. And from there it's really just like careful testing. But again, thinking about when you're thinking about keywords like which of these keywords, long tail keywords are gonna be customers who have already thought very deeply about this and um, and if you are going to go higher funnel, more broad keywords, then you're likely going to want to serve content that's going to act as a funnel to your adapt to your purchase. Speaker 2:   07:32     So, speaking of funnels, I know you're in the process of creating your own and your first click funnels here, expert secrets. When you start thinking about a funnel, especially, you just made the mention as far as you know, top of the funnel, high end funnel. Explain to people exactly what that means. Speaker 3:   07:48     So I think people, people are at different stages of their purchase journey. And when I think about the top of the funnel, I think about the beginning of that journey, maybe someone doesn't know that they need your product. And so at the top of the funnel, people are doing their initial research, if you can create content that captured them at that stage and then you can become the teacher, the person who's being the educator, you can kind of like walk them down the funnel down to purchase product. Um, so basically people that are high in the funnel may not be super high intense quite yet. And as they get lower into the funnel, their intent becomes higher and higher and conserve them different types of content. So as they're deeper in the funnel, it becomes maybe not as much educational content, more not as broad educational concept, but it gets more narrow into your product. So you can serve them content that maybe shows a product walkthrough of your product or testimonials of people who purchase your products. And so there's kind of this sequential messaging that happens as someone goes from top of funnel. Speaker 2:   08:54     I love, I had this conversation with Speaker 3:   08:56     my son earlier this morning. He's doing some affiliate marketing for me inside of click funnels and I would sit there, I sit there talking to him about it and he's like, you had. It's really hard to get someone just to take a free trial of clickfunnels, and I'm like, yeah, you're right. Especially if they don't even know what a funnel is. I said, we're in the process right now of creating this whole idea as far as the death of the website and trying to help a lot of local business owners who think, Gosh, all I need is a website to help them understand that really websites are dying. They're not already getting some industries and really how a funnel works and so if you start with funnel jargon, people are going to go, I don't even know what a funnel is, what are you talking about it? Speaker 3:   09:34     So I love that idea. I just appreciate just kind of hitting home as far as where in that actual funnel are they top of the funnel, mid funnel, bottom of the funnel, and it totally changes the experience as well as the conversation that you're having with them. So I appreciate your going through that. Totally. That's so funny that you say that about the websites because we talked with marketing part talks a lot of, um, people that are just getting started and they have this website now. Like I have this amazing website, I to my website that is just not how it works. There's so much more intention that goes as a marketer, I never send traffic to a website, never ever. So as a marketer, I'm always sending traffic to landing pages that are specifically pushing people down a funnel, a very specific funnel. They have a very specific call to action, just one button on a page. And so websites that have menus with lots of different options, it's like you're, um, you're spending money to get traffic to that page and then you're losing people. You're giving them a million different places to click options and you're not helping them get through the funnel. Speaker 2:   10:37     I appreciate that. Well, here we've started to do, I'd like to kind of segway into one of the things I'm most excited about and that's this whole marketing data type of stuff that you'd love to geek out on and I know you've got kind of an awkward the end for those people want to stick around as far as a kind of exact how they can track some of this data. So tell me what, what are the things that you're paying attention to in a marketing funnel? What are the metrics that you're following? What's most important? Speaker 3:   11:00     Alright, well the first thing I want to say is that this stuff is really hard. Um, Speaker 2:   11:08     wait, all of my listeners right there, they're gone. Speaker 3:   11:10     Well, no, because I was a lovely side. Thought it was really hard and I understand why you think it is hard because I used to have a really hard time with it. I was really overwhelmed. Is that started out as a marketer? I was like, okay, um, you want me to build a weekly report showing how our marketing campaigns are doing simple enough. Right. Little do I realized that that actually involves logging into facebook and export and all the data logging into google, linkedin email tool, looking at our down revenue and like pulling all this data together takes hours because you've done loggins. These platforms export all the data. Then maybe you import them into a Google spreadsheet or excel. Then you have another tab where you may be creating a dashboard and you're using formulas and you're trying to map the data all together and hopefully your formulas are right and hopefully and then even at that point you just have like a big sheet of numbers and then you're going to have to present these numbers of people who are going to want to make sense of them. Speaker 3:   12:12     So they should probably be in charge now. It needs to be pretty in this whole thing. I swear like it used to take me two to three days of my week to prepare for the meeting with a meeting with our CEO just to be able to like pull, pull the numbers together, make them pretty enough for other people to understand. But also for me to understand like not only like putting the data together, but then so do the analytics and figure out the insights and figure out what's not going well and what needs to change. Just like the whole thing. It's so tedious. It is so time consuming and I can promise you that there is a marketer at every single company doing this, like somebody is doing this. And I was doing this annually about six months ago. I left my job, my last company, and I wanted to work at a marketing company, some kind of marketing tool that was helping marketers because I love thinking about marketing. Speaker 3:   13:10     I wanted to market to marketers and this is all very meta, but I've heard about this company called it provato that was looking for a head of marketing. And it was a tool that basically automated that whole process that I was pretty miserable over. Um, so basically they just sink into all the different platforms like facebook and Google ads and all your crm and all the things. And then it's just like slurps up the data into one place where it just lifts in real time all the time. So you can check on any ad, any campaign across any platform in one place or you can send it to your visualization tool. So the Google data studio or tableau or looker, wherever you want to visualize it, you just have this real time reporting. So you never ever have to like do that crappy stuff that all of us marketers are wasting time that ever again. Speaker 3:   14:03     Um, yeah. And so, and so that's, that's what my mission is now, to kind of spread the word that this is an option because I certainly didn't know it was. And um, you know, as a marketer and my favorite part is the strategy part. It's the thinking about using the tests and new ideas to try and optimizing what's working and don't want to be in spreadsheets all day. Just getting started. What are some of the most important metrics they should be paying attention to? I think a lot of times I see people making the mistake of looking at the wrong metrics. And so this is definitely an important question. Speaker 3:   14:43     It can be easy as a marketer get excited about top of the funnel metrics. Here we go. Talking about funnel signups, right? So at my last job I was at a company called realty shares and it was a real estate investing platform online and so I was getting were doing google, Google ads and we were running ads to the keyword real estate crowd funding, which is what it's called when you invest in real estate online, not everyone knows what the word real estate crowd funding is. So the people who have typed that in have very high intent, right? And those people would convert and they would the time paying investors in great customers. And so I wanted to expand from there and try and see if it worked and follow more people. So I tested out real estate investing as a keyword, which seems like a logical next step, real estate investing. And we tested it and while we were getting tons of signups for really cheap, this was awesome. I'm like, great, let's spend more money here. A couple months later I realized none of the people that signed up from the keyword real estate investing ever made an investment Speaker 3:   15:57     and so it's really easy to get excited by like sign up metrics, but what actually matters is like actual customers, actual paying customers, if none of those people become paying customers and that's actually not a good place to be spending money, so to kind of just like hold your excitement until you watch people go through the funnel and the different companies, different length of time, which can be challenging as a marketer to wait like a couple months to see if that thing works before you spend more money on it, but it's really about just careful testing and being able to see data from, from sign up all the way through to revenue and being able to tie that back. That revenue back to the child came from Speaker 2:   16:41     kind of what you're talking about there. The most important thing I always look at is what's that cost to acquire a customer? A paying customer versus the sign sign ups are great, but you can have a whole bunch of people sign up if no one take their credit card out. They are very, very little value to you or to them. So I always look as far as what's that cost to acquire the customer, what's obviously the average cart value. If we can kind of look at that where we get in at least inside of a funnel where the average cart value, if I can get the average car value to be equal to the cost to acquire customer base, getting customers for free and then I send them up the sales ladder from there. So Speaker 3:   17:16     keeping track, you know the customers signed up within a channel and that have gone on to make a purchase and you can have that revenue. You can just take that revenue number and divided by the number of signups that you got. And now you have your legs allowable cost per acquisition for a, for a signup. And so if you go above that, you're know you're losing money and if you go below that, you know you're making money. So Speaker 2:   17:44     can you repeat that Formula One more time just for those people are listening to, they understand because I think it's a real important number to. To track. Speaker 3:   17:49     Yeah. So I call the allowable the allowable cost per acquisition for a signup for someone that signed up. So within a given channel, if you keep track of, say for example your, your check, looking at facebook as a channel, you know that you got x number of signups on facebook and then he got y number of customers that actually paid and then you have a certain number of revenue. So if you take that revenue number, how much you made from people that you acquired on facebook and then you divide it by the number of signups that you got at the very start. Then you have this number that I like to call the allowable and that's kind of like your breakeven cost for acquisition, for facebook, for this specific channel, so that can rate. That can vary from channel to channel. You might have a different allowable cost per acquisition on facebook. Then you have google ads and this is really, really important when, when you're optimizing for channel two to realize that that's different. So on facebook you'll have this number and this is your allowable cost per acquisition and you want to stay below it because it's what soon as you start going, oh, if you're an addict, you're a even, that means like the, the amount that you're spending and getting Speaker 3:   19:10     on facebook is the same and if you're over it then you're losing money on facebook and if you're under it then, Speaker 2:   19:16     then you're awesome. So just running some numbers here. If I have 100 people sign up and they'll say 10 of those buy and it's a turtle a product. So it's a $2,000 total. So I've got basically 2000 bucks I made and divide that by 100. In other words, it means I could basically spend up to 20 bucks for a signup. That sound right. And so I think it's important for people who are listening to understand. We talked so much about what's my cost to acquire the customer? Well, that cost to acquire a customer. It could be 200 bucks because that's what they're paying me, but if it actually costs you that sign up as a 10th of that, I think that's an important number to kind of track and pay attention to. So I appreciate to appreciate you kind of go through there. Speaker 3:   19:58     Yeah, absolutely. Speaker 2:   19:59     Well Haley, I know we're kind of get close to wrapping things up here where, where can people get more information on tracking this kind of stuff? Speaker 3:   20:06     Yeah. So I actually need a blank template just for you guys who are listening, if you want to look at what my marketing dashboard looks like. Um, before I automated that. So this is when I go into Google sheets and I make all these different tabs so that I can see what's happening from a marketing perspective weekly, daily, monthly, yearly. Like how I figured out my goals. I have all these different tabs in a google sheet and I kind of took out all the data and made it blank for you in case you want to use it yourself. That's what I, when I do my marketing data manually, that's what it looks like. Do you want to automate? It can help you there, but if you just want this Google spreadsheet, definitely take a and download it for yourself. You can access it at that io slash podcast. You want spelling Pramada for us? Yes, I am t r o v a d o Dot io slash podcast. It's so funny. I had this terrible time and spelling allowed senior. I'm the table so that I. You Speaker 2:   21:16     did a great job spelling for it, so I appreciate it. Speaker 3:   21:18     Yeah. Speaker 2:   21:21     Well, let any last remarks here before we got to wrap things up. Speaker 3:   21:25     Um, let's see. Follow or connect with me on linkedin. I'd love to, uh, to chat there. That's probably the best place. My name is Haley Friedman, so you can find me on there. Speaker 2:   21:36     Awesome. Well, Haley, thanks so much. I appreciate your time and appreciate all that you guys are doing to push marketing forward. So thank you. Thank you. This is a lot of fun. Speaker 4:   21:45     Hey everybody, thank you so much for taking the time to listen to podcasts. If you don't mind, could you please share this with others, rate and review this podcast on itunes. It means the world to me where I'm trying to get to as a million downloads here in the next few months and just crush through over $650,000 and I just want to get the next few $100,000 so we can get to a million downloads and see really what I can do to help improve and and get this out to more people. At the same time, if there's a topic, there's something you'd like me to share or someone you'd like me to interview, I only just reach out to me on facebook. You can pm me and be more than happy to take any of your feedback as well as if people would like me to interview. I'm more than happy to reach out and have that conversation with you so I can go to itunes rate and review this, share this podcast with others and let me know how else I can improve this or can do to make this better for you guys. Thanks.

Why Dave Decided to talk to Bailey Richert Bailey Richert is a business coach who helps individuals launch and grow profitable online enterprises as “infopreneurs”: respected experts in their fields creating value and generating income by sharing their life experience, knowledge and passions with others in a manner that supports their ideal lifestyles. Tips and Tricks for You and Your Business: What Bailey Learned From Her Experience: The Takeaway (6:35) The One Funnel Away Challenge (20:33) Business Implementation: Going Forward (25:25) Quotable Moments: "The one funnel away challenge is going to help people understand the power of Clickfunnels for their own business." "What you are going to take away from these individuals is amazing. We have 30 different speakers in different niches." Other Tidbits: Bailey discusses how she is able to coach people, supporting their lifestyle plans. She discusses the 30 Day Summit and what it is all about. Bailey discusses how much she has learned from working with her clients and the value they bring to her. Links: FunnelHackerRadio.com FunnelHackerRadio.com/freetrial FunnelHackerRadio.com/dreamcar ---Transcript--- Speaker 1:     00:00         Welcome to funnel hacker radio podcast, where we go behind the scenes and uncover the tactics and strategies top entrepreneurs are using to make more sales, dominate their markets, and how you can get those same results. Here's your host, Dave Woodward. Welcome. Speaker 2:     00:18         So excited to basically have everybody here. We are doing a behind the scenes of 30 days.com. So once you guys probably know who I am, I'm Dave Woodward. I'm, I run a lot of our business development opportunities over here at Click Funnels and all the top line revenue stuff. Always having a lot of fun. This is by far been one of our funnest, most exciting things we've done in a long, long time. What I want to make sure is that you guys see and understand behind the scenes of how all this happens. So with that I wanna introduce to you daily. Richard, how are you doing? I'm doing great. How are you? I'm so excited to have you. So, uh, most people don't know that much about you. So those guys just don't know about Bailey. Bailey actually has been a business coach for infopreneurs for quite some time. And also one of her specialties actually is doing this whole virtual summits. So last year at funnel hacking live, she was sitting in the audit. In fact, you know what Bailey, instead of telling your story, you shared your own story of what it was like and how all this thing came about. Speaker 3:     01:12         Sure. So funnel hiking live. Two thousand 18 was in March down in Disney world and it was an absolutely incredible event and I was sitting there. This was about the third day I was over on the right hand side of the stage because I'm not one of those people that loves to be all claustrophobic in the middle and I'm sitting there and I'm looking at all of these incredible speakers, but I'm also just positioned in a way that I can also see everybody else in the room and I'm thinking to myself, there's only 3,500 people here I think was the number of attendees. And I knew because I've been a click funnels members since 2015, that we had over 62,000 users at that time. And also hundreds. You know, thousands of people here in this facebook group, and I was thinking to myself, you know, this is just crazy to me that so many people aren't going to be able to see these awesome speakers and something needs to be done about that. Speaker 3:     02:03         I said, click funnels needs to host a summit, wrestled needs to host a virtual summit. I'd already been doing virtual summits in my business for a couple of years. I figured wrestle, obviously knew about them and he definitely did. Later, many weeks down the road after he and I connected, he told me that he actually used virtual summits to grow his business when he was just getting started, you know, decades ago. And so it just so happened that I knew Julie Soy and I'm sure everybody out there in the clickfunnels community. That was Julie. But here's the thing. I know Julie because of a summit that I had done for my business two years earlier, so some. It's a really fantastic for networking. And I reached out to her and I said, Hey Julie, I had this crazy idea. I said, I think Russell needs to host a summit, but no, Russell doesn't know me from Adam and I definitely wanted to run this idea up the flagpole first to see what you thought of it and she knew that I knew summits and was like, I think it's a great idea, so you know, jump forward a of weeks, months later, and we ended up coming up with this 30 days idea because Russell had already been thinking about how he could bring the knowledge of his two comma club speakers to a greater audience. Speaker 3:     03:13         And so he had already kind of thought about doing the 30 days book and when I came onto the scene I said, why don't we do a book and a summit? Why don't we add an interview portion to this project and really let the speakers be able to tell their own 30 day plans as well. And so what you guys are seeing now@thirtydays.com is the, is the result of all of that? Speaker 2:     03:35         Well, I am so excited. I'm sorry. I keep looking over my other screen here. Trying to make sure I've got everything working, but the kind of most excited about is kind of going behind the scenes. Let people know exactly how all this happened. So with that said, I'd like to first of all, for those of you guys who aren't familiar with, uh, the whole 30 days summit, um, what I want to do is I'm gonna actually show you here to the video. So I'm sharing my screen here and let this come up so you guys can actually see the video that Russell did that kind of tells the story of exactly how this works. What would you do? Speaker 4:     04:09         Imagine this. You suddenly lose everything, your money, your name, your reputation, you have bills, pow high of people harassing you for money over the phone. And all you have left is a click funnels account and the Internet access for 30 days. What would you do with nate? Number one, day number 32. Save yourself. It's an interesting question, isn't it? I'm sure that the assets 100 different people, I get 100 different answers. What might work, but what about people who have already done it? People who started from nothing actually created a click funnels account and eventually made it. What would they do? They each had already lived it. What would they do if they just start over again? Right now, I decided to run an experiment. I send out an email to over a hundred people, but not just any people. People who'd actually already wanted two comma club award, meaning that made at least a million dollars inside of a single sales funnel. Speaker 4:     04:54         I want to know exactly what they would do to get back on top data. Number one, what would you do day number two, date number three, four, five, six. All live today. Number 30. If you had to start over again today, which is your marketing and your photo building skills, what would you do to get back into the two comma club? Again, from the hundred emails I send only 30 people responding back. The eastern sent me a detailed step by step process of what they would do, starting with no product, no list, no traffic, no funnel, and then detailing exactly what they would do and why they would do it. In a simple step by step process, each of their 30 day plans, so different to eat, some lead you on a path of absolute certainty to success. I honestly don't know how anyone are any of these 30 day plans could possibly not succeed. Everyone who's ever tried to make money online needs to see these experiments. Anyone who's ever had a click funnels account now has execution plans to get them back on top. Just pick any of them and follow the path where you are today, all the way to the stage where you receive your two Comma Club award at funnel hacking live. Find success with click funnels and no longer a matter of luck. It's an absolute certainty. Speaker 2:     06:06         I love, love, love, love, love that video. Oh my gosh. So much fun. So I want to make sure people understand exactly behind the scenes and how all this came about. So you told us how that Kinda gets started. You now understand exactly what was proposed to our 100 of our top two comma club award winning a award winners and basically 30 plans. So what I want to find out from you, as you went through this, you had the opportunity to actually interviewing them. You created the book, you created all the crazy content, the assets, everything. So tell people kind of what did you learn out of? You're pulling all this stuff together. Speaker 3:     06:39         Oh my goodness. First of all, even though I have been a coach for a couple of years, the amount of stuff that I learned from these people is crazy. So even if you are thinking like, I have a successful business, I'm making six figures a year, you still need this because what you are going to take away from these individuals is ridiculous. It's amazing. But here's the thing also, you know, we have 30 different speakers and they're all in different niches, right? But they're all in different industries. You know, we have some people that are doing info products, some people that are doing ecommerce. Even when I was interviewing somebody who was working in a different niche than I do in my business or in a different industry, even, I was still able to learn something from them about the way they've designed their funnel or something about the way they're using social media to promote their business. Speaker 3:     07:27         So there's something to be gleaned from every single interview even if you don't exactly do the same thing. And one of the biggest things I've learned is that as I was looking through all of the speakers plans and I, you know, I read every single plan, that $600 book everyone's getting. I've read that at least three times and having of course recorded the interviews and then edited them and watch them over and over again. I feel intimately involved with everybody's plan. You start to see these repeat concepts over and over and over again. You see that these people who have gotten to the two comma club or doing certain things that are getting them there. So you know, we are seeing every single speaker almost talking about their dream. 100 talking about partnering with affiliates. And if you're not partnering with other people in your network, then you are missing out on money. Speaker 3:     08:15         You see them talking about using auto webinars in order to sell info products and how they're, you know, getting success with those. Um, how, if you need to be getting testimonials for your services and your products. Me Actually, when I was going through these plans, how many speakers were like, oh yeah, the first week I wouldn't be going to get testimonials from people that I've worked with in the past from people that know me from people that, you know, can be character references. Even that's something that they would be going after. So then it was, it was such a huge learning curve for me. I guarantee you you are going to learn something new. Guarantee it. Speaker 2:     08:50         I love it. Well, I'm so excited. It's, it was more or less safe that it totally kind of blew my action. We made a mistake, to be honest with you. So what was supposed to happen was. So the way the funnel works is you sign up, you register for, for the opportunity basically to get involved in the summit, which isn't going to take place until the 17th, 18th and 19th of September and but if you, once you register, the first op he have is to actually buy the book that Bailey was just talking about and that whole idea was to buy the book of every single thing has been put together literally 600 pages. It is this massively thick book we're having. It's still, I'm waiting for the original to come here. I'm so, so excited about it. But you got that and then you also got put into the members area where it had all the videos of every single person and their daily plan as far as exactly what was supposed to happen. Speaker 2:     09:42         And then also get signed up with one funnel away challenged with Steven Larsen and Julie Coyne and Russell. It starts in October. Where we screwed up was those people who bought, they weren't supposed to have access to these videos until September 17th. So the member's area went live and people got access and in a way it's been a good thing because people are so, so excited. Oh my gosh, I'm getting blown up on facebook. I'm getting blown up on my personal message. Everyone's going, oh my gosh, trait loads was just the most amazing mind blowing thing I've ever seen. I mean, everybody's. I was going through this thing. A lot of the feelings are going, oh gosh. See Spitzer meagan's one. It's. Anyways, it's been going crazy and I'm excited because it allows people the opportunity of really being a part of it. And I think that one of the biggest problems we run into these days is, is everyone kind of talks about, well, it could happen and maybe. Speaker 2:     10:32         And it only works for them. And I remember, Gosh, 10, almost 12 years ago when I first got started in this. I have those exact same questions. Those same concerns. It know it. It's, it's just the lucky people. There's some secret to this whole thing. I can't figure it out and I'm frustrated and I keep sitting here going, gosh, there's got to be some way. Something I can do and nothing seemed to work and so I love the idea of Louis saying, yeah, you've already made it, but let's strip it all away. You don't have your friends, you don't have your context, you don't have anything. Nothing but a clickfunnels account and that's it. And Internet access. That's it. So what are you going to go and Bailey? I think the part I've loved as far as working with you on this one, you are so thorough. Speaker 2:     11:12         I mean one of the most thorough people I've ever seen when it comes to pulling this together because anybody who works with us understands we're real good with macro, but we let you run with it and you did such an awesome job. I was. I was so impressed with your ability to literally extract out of these people day by day what they would do. I, I, I remember we first rolled this thing out. I was kind of questioning going, I don't know how transparent these people are really going to be. How did you, how did you get them to really spill the beans? Okay. Well, first of all, they wrote the plans first actually, so we didn't just dive into an interview. For those of you who have youtube interview channels or podcast, you know that if you just go in and start chatting with someone, you're not going to be Speaker 3:     11:54         getting the best value out of them. You have to come prepared as an interviewer. So the first thing we did was we actually had them write the plans and let me tell you, Dave, I did not let them get off easy and Julie will tell you this too, because I would message her and I would say I don't think it's good enough and I would really, I would do that and I would go back and I would work with everyone and I would say, you know what, you, you, you skimmed over this. I want to know more like, let's dive deeper into this and I really want to flesh this out. So I really made sure that the plans were top notch. First. Speaker 2:     12:24         I'm gonna interrupt you because I actually had a couple of people come to me and going deep, whose bailee and ask you, who are you sure, why do I have to do this? And again, none of these people got paid to do this. No, it's literally out of the kindness of their heart and in their generosity and giving back to the clickfunnels community. But they're like, you know, Dave, I don't have the kind of time to go through and create the kind of plan that she wants. She wants it literally like day by day by day. And I'm like, listen guys, please, please just do me a huge, huge favor and just bear with us and most importantly just pour your heart and soul into this thing. And in fact, I was talking to David Asarnow. I'm just a few weeks ago, and he was. He was talking about the fact that he literally was on this fourth of July vacation and shut down his whole, he's old families out there and listen, I'm going to do this. And he's actually taking that is going to use that to create a six figure business out of the business plan that he gave you. So congratulations on your ability to pull that out. Speaker 3:     13:22         Thank you. And you know, when Russell even said, I think he says in the video where he mentions in some point that we asked 100 people, we really did. He's not just saying that we really. Yeah, we really did contact over 100 different people, two comma club winners for this and a lot of them were like to write such a detailed plan is, it's a lot. So the fact that we were able to get like 30 detailed plans up to the caliber that I wanted, I was, I was thrilled. Speaker 2:     13:51         Well you did an amazing job and I think again, it's a huge tribute to you. It's also massive tribute to just the fact that they care so much about our audience. They're not. It's their way of giving back. And I think that's the part I love most about this. We joke around all the time about our whole click funnels and the ability that it actually, it, it's really there to help other people and I think once you've had success, the most important thing is to grab a hold of someone else. I'm pulling up to your same type of success and this is a huge tribute to them and all 30 of them for doing it, uh, because I know how much work it was. And again, I thought it was just fantastic. Speaker 3:     14:30         Yeah. And it's like you said, they did not get paid to do this. They put in so much time writing those plans and then doing the interviews and everything else in order to be a part of this. So we're really grateful. Speaker 2:     14:41         So one of the things that you learn in doing it. Speaker 3:     14:43         Oh man, so much. So first of all, I want to say that I feel like we're sleeping on a really important part of that membership area that I feel like people aren't paying attention to. You're getting access to all the interviews, but there's also a second interview, a premium content interview that I recorded with every single speaker. It's actually a little different. It's a screen share interview where they are actually walking me through inside of clickfunnels accounts, how they set up their two comma club funnels and I feel like we're not making a big enough deal about that because honestly I learned so much from watching them for. So for those of you who are even saying to yourself, well, I've been on click funnels for like five years, four years, however long we've even been around. I think with click funnels since the beginning too, and I'm telling you that I learned so much about how everybody is structuring their funnels. Speaker 3:     15:35         That gave me new ideas, that gave me a new design ideas and all that stuff. So just as valuable as the 30 day plans were. I learned so much from actually diving in and learning and you'll see when you watch the interviews, I don't shy away from the questions. I'm like, wait, why did you do that? What plugin is that? Where does that step lead next? Tell me about that so that you can actually see exactly how it's done. So I mean they were literally funnel hacking themselves and there's so much value to that because when we funnel hack someone else, we have to make assumptions, right? We have to look and see what they did and we used to say, well, it looks like this goes here, and I think this is why they did that, but when we had the two comma club speakers funnel hack themselves, they were able to reveal their secrets and they did. It was cool because they didn't just say, oh, well, you know, we made it green because it's a color. I like. They would say, no, we actually split tested this headline versus this headline and this one was better. We made it this color because of this reason. We did this because of that, and to learn all of that knowledge for a funnel builder invaluable, invaluable. Speaker 2:     16:41         Oh, you know what? I really appreciate that because you're right. I think we've kind of. We haven't focused as much on that as we have about they're going through and creating their plan and then the one funnel away challenge and then having the actual videos of the videos that you created with them going through it. So I, I appreciate that. I'm going to make sure we'll reach out to everybody and let them know that. I think the other really cool, crazy thing out of all this is when we originally I thought up this whole idea, we thought we don't promote the second we do everything else where we're just going to wait 40 percent commission and then literally two days before is we're setting up the affiliate center. I sit there talking to Russell. I'm like, anything else you think we could do to really entice people to get involved and promote this? Speaker 2:     17:19         He goes, you know what, Dave, we've never done this before. I'm like, oh no, where are we going with this Russell? Because listen, I've never ever done this. I know, but let's. Let's do a hundred percent commission. I'm like, what? You got to be kidding me? We're losing money on this thing. He's like, no, I want to do it. So we actually are doing a hundred percent commission where they actually get 100 percent xo. Once you opt in, the very next thing that happens is you need. Then you go to the option to buy the book and to get access to the membership site and in that membership site, get their plans, get the but most importantly, get behind the scenes of Bailey going through their actual two comma club funnel in clickfunnels with them. You get all that and instead of us typically keeping 60 percent, we are give a hundred percent. So you sign up for that cost you 100 bucks, you get all that and you get the hundred bucks back. The craziest thing is we're now seeing, we've done almost $300,000, 3000 copies of the book. I thought we actually had to order some more books day. I only thought we were gonna do too fast. And so, um, we've had to order now order 10,000 copies of this book because of the crazy impact it's having on so, so many people. But Speaker 3:     18:26         it's funny, Dave, because whenever me and Russell and a couple others in the voxer we're talking about like how many books to preorder and people were like, I don't know, 1000, 2000. I knew in my heart and in my head I knew it was going to be more. I'm like, I just, I know from just the power of doing summits, but then also just the value. And then when you made it 100 percent commission, I'm like, nope, we're doing. I know we're going to do more. I know it. Speaker 2:     18:50         Well we are far surpassed 5,000. Between five and 10,000. It's kind of where I think we'll be here. And that's crazy considering today's the 10th of September, we started this on the sixth and so it's been, we've got 10 more days in this thing and I mean it's just. Anyways, I'm super excited, super appreciative of view and I think we'd really have to focus more on is that those two comma club winners, Ashley funnel hacking themselves. I'm going to make a pointed out today. We'll go out to them. So for those of you guys who haven't, for some reason I haven't purchased it, you can go to 30 days.com, you can get a copy of the book, you get access to the virtual summit a, I'm going to end up taking this off. We'll strip the audio. This will put this on a funnel hacker radio, and so those of you guys would listen to it. Speaker 2:     19:31         I don't even know if this is going to be live. If you're listening to this by the time we get posted, but realize that we want to make sure that if you want to be involved in this, go to 30 days.com by the book and then if you want to go ahead and share it with other people. The part I'm most excited about after all the crazy work that Bailey's done on this, we. Then one thing you have to understand here, clickfunnels is things change all the time. This was not the original funnel. This was nothing. Original offer is changed like four or five times and I appreciate barely being so patient with us because we continue to change it all the time, but uh, so now we have the one funnel away challenge. It starts October 18th and it's going to be really a fun product, our project. So now you're going to go through basically learning about these 30 days and then he get Stephen Larsen and Julian Russell. They're basically coaching you through implementing your own 30 days. And so again, this wouldn't have happened if it wasn't for you. Bailey. So again, massive. Thank you to you. Speaker 3:     20:22         Thank you. And thank you guys. I click funnels though for helping me see the vision through like, you guys believed in it just as much, you know, it was awesome. So Speaker 2:     20:30         any other things you can think of? The people who need to know about this. I would also just say, you know, this makes sense. Speaker 3:     20:35         Fantastic offer for cold traffic or even warm traffic because even if somebody is not necessarily familiar with the click funnels culture and doesn't necessarily know what the two Comma Club award or the dream car award is, everybody wants to be a millionaire, right? Everybody wants to have that seven figure funnel and so the idea of 30 millionaires really coming together and sharing their secrets in business is very, very appealing to even the more cold traffic parts of your audience. And what I would also say is keep in mind that you're not just making those 100 percent commissions on the sale, but sticky cookies guys. I mean because the one funnel away challenge is going to help people understand the power of click funnels for their own business. Because once they get that funnel launched and they really start to see the incredible value that click funnels can bring to their business, they're going to stay and you're the one that's going to be reaping the longterm commission of that. So if you are an affiliate and you're not promoting this, I don't know why because this is one of the best offers. I think you could promote as an affiliate. Speaker 2:     21:39         I love it. So I have to ask. Out of all 30, who is your favorite? Speaker 3:     21:43         Oh Man. I don't even hate. I don't even want to answer because first of all, all of them or so were so good. Everybody's been talking about trey. Trey Lewellen. I think his is one of the best because to me it was. It was so different. It's a little bit different than what we normally hear, I think, and he has a really actionable plan that anybody can do. I, of course, I absolutely love Julie. She talks about being a service provider. If you are just getting started in business, how you can really bootstrap as a service provider. Spencer meekum talks about affiliate marketing. I mean, Gosh, I don't want me on the spot. That's not even fair. They're all incredible for for completely different reasons, which is one of the unique aspects of this event as well. You know, if if every 30 day plan was the same, it would be. It would be boring, but trust me, that is not the case. Every single one is so different and yet you will find a successful elements running through them all. Speaker 2:     22:40         I again, I totally agree. I think the part that I, I liked the most as you were mentioning there is they're each different. The other thing is they're all different verticals. They're all different niches. It's not like these are just people selling info products. I mean, you've got Amazon sellers, you've got affiliate marketers, you've got book publishers, you've got agencies, you've got chiropractors, real estate. I mean, I mean there's something for everyone. It really is, and I think that's the part I thought was really the most important thing is so often people think, well, it doesn't apply to me. Listen, if you can't go through those 30 days and find one, one plan, all you need is one plan. You just find one plan. There's got to be one plan out there that will fit what did that, whatever niche or whatever vertical you're in or that you want to get in. Speaker 2:     23:23         And I seen a lot of people have been talking to them and saying, well, you know, I don't know which one to go. I'm like, just pick one, you just pick one. I don't care if you pick, just pick one and just go for that one is and implement it. It takes. Just literally go through it step by step, day by day, take the next 30 days, pick one and go through it and it's funny. We were talking about trade and I remember, Gosh, working with trey when he first got started with click is his whole thing was I'm going to do a funnel every single week and I thought, man, that's a lot of fights at this point. I'm sitting there thinking, you know what, if for some reason if you started literally and took one of those and just did one for the next 30 days, if that doesn't work, then do a different one. If that doesn't work, you're going to learn so much in the process that something is going to click. Something's going to work and again, I just, we wouldn't have this asset if it wasn't for you. Bailey and again, we're super, super appreciative for all the hard work and effort that you put into this. Speaker 3:     24:15         Thank you. It's been an absolute blast. One of the best things in my career so far. Hands down. Speaker 2:     24:20         Any other parting words? Speaker 3:     24:22         You know, I would just say the only other thing I would say is that for some people, because I used to work with a lot of beginning and budding business owners, that's, that was my target audience for a really long time in my business and I think that um, not only is this book perfect for them because we are starting from scratch, but the speakers did such an amazing job packing the value into each one of their plans, that the only to do it in 30 days might seem overwhelming to some people. So the only other thing that I would say is that when even if you look at that plan and you're like, wow, 30 days, that's so fast, you know, that's, that's, you know, that's going to go by and just a flash, go cares do it. Ninety days doing 120 days, you know, you've got the plan there, you can do it in your time. That's really what it's all about. The 30 days gives each one of the plans structure and I love that so much, but you know, for those of you who are looking at this and saying like, wow, that's so much, you know, it's, it's okay to do it in your pace. The point is you've got to plan a plan to success and like you said, just pick one. Speaker 2:     25:22         I love it. So from everything you've learned, what are you going to do differently? What are you going to take and implement into your own business? Speaker 3:     25:27         Oh, absolutely. So first of all, in my own auto web, in one of my own auto webinar funnels, I've already made some changes based upon the interviews that I did specifically with Julie stowing, Caitlin pyle, and Steven Larsen who were showing us behind the scenes. Again, in those premium interviews, you can only get when you upgrade about how they did their auto webinar funnels. There were some changes that they had done, some things that I saw in there that I wanted to do and implement. It's changes into my auto webinar funnel. That was definitely one of the big things, you know, I was already doing like the dream 100 thing in my own business because of the way I do summits, but I've seen how I can implement that concept into other things in my business outside of just doing a summit, so that's been cool. I'm really going aggressive on getting video testimonials for my products and my services because of how I've seen how all of these two common cold winters are using them in their business. I could go on, but those are just a couple of the ones. Speaker 2:     26:24         I love it. Well guys, Bailey enough. We're actually so excited. This whole virtual summit thing. It is so funny. It's one of those things where if you take a look, everything that was old becomes new again and this was summit's I remember when it used to be telesummits before we had the all the video and everything else and when I first got started online tell someone's were the rage and then everyone's stopped doing them and no one's done this whole virtual summit. So we actually have a special treat at funnel hacking live because Bailey's going to be speaking on stage about all the craziness, about virtual summits, how they work, how you can do it. So again, sit close to Bailey's Bailey. I know people are gonna. Want to know how they reach out to you? What's the best way they can connect with you? Speaker 3:     27:05         Well you can check out my website, Bailey, Richard Dot com or you can send me an email at contact at Bailey, Richard Dot com and I'd love to hear from you. Speaker 2:     27:13         I love it. Again, everyone were super excited. We are to go to 30 days.com. I don't know what more we can save you. We haven't told you enough reasons why to get it. Just go and read the sales letter and to the video. Hopefully Russell can, can make it better than weekend. There's no reason you shouldn't be participating in this virtual summit. It happens again on, uh, July, September, 17th, 18th and the 19th. So the way it's gonna work, I don't believe you don't like to tell people how it actually works on those days. Speaker 3:     27:41         Yeah, absolutely. So when you actually sign up@thirtydays.com, what you're doing is you're grabbing your free ticket, which means that you are now going to be put on the list in order to receive the links that you'll need to watch the free interviews when they go live on September 17th, 18th and 19th. But here's the thing, we are only going to be releasing 10 speaker interviews each one of those days. So 30 speakers three days, 10 per day, right? And you're only going to be able to watch those interviews for 24 hours each. They are only available for a limited period of time. So September 17th, the first 10 are going to go up. Twenty four hours later, they're going to be taken down September 18th. The second side goes up 24 hours later if they're taken down. Okay? So you will be able to watch the first interview, the face to face interview that I did with each one of the speakers where they're going through their 30 day plans. That's what's included with your free ticket. When you upgrade, what you're going to be getting is instant access to the membership area that contains all of those interviews so you can watch them anywhere you want as many times as you want for life. Plus those behind the scenes funnel hacking videos we were talking about, plus a physical copy, that 600 page book of all of the Thirty Day plans from the speakers plus the admission to the one funnel away challenge which starts in October. So that's basically how it works. Speaker 2:     28:59         That's perfect. If you guys have any question on virtual summits, I highly recommend you reach out to Bailey. Bailey. Richard is Richard Dotcom. Yep. Bailey, Richard R I c h e r t and again, huge props to you. Huge. Thank you for pulling this thing together. Again, it's far surpass whatever I even imagined you guys would have been able to pull off. So thank you very, very much. Thank you for having me. All right everybody again, 30 days.com. If you haven't gone there, please go there. Uh, today is, we're recording this on September the 10th and so literally a week from today is when it starts, so please go right now and register@thirtydays.com if nothing else at least registered so you can get the free access, but you'd be absolutely insane and crazy not to get, just upgrade to the premium so you get the, you have to get the videos now you can get, get the video starting today and you start watching them and getting go through finding questions you have. And again, if you promote it you also get 100 bucks. So I don't know what more I can say 30 days.com. Go there, Bailey. Huge. Thanks again and have an amazing day. Speaker 4:     30:05         You too. Hey everybody, thank you so much for taking the time to listen to podcasts. If you don't mind, could you please share this with others, rate and review this podcast on itunes. It means the world to me where I'm trying to get to as a million downloads here in the next few months and just crush through over $650,000. And I just want to get the next few 100,000 so we can get to a million downloads and see really what I can do to help improve and, and get this out to more people at the same time. If there's a topic, there's something you'd like me to share or someone you'd like me to interview, by all means, just reach out to me on facebook. You can pm me and I'll be more than happy to take any of your feedback as well as if people would like me to interview more than happy to reach out and have that conversation with you. So again, go to itunes rate and review this, share this podcast with others and let me know how else I can improve this or I can do to make this better for you guys. Thanks.

Why Dave Decided to talk to Raoul Plicket: Raoul Plickat is advisor and board member to multiple big ecommerce brands and blockchain companies. He is the Founder of the payment provider “CopeCart” and the e-training platform “eTraining Solutions” which enables companies achieving unfair advantages through data driven eTraining; ultra-secured by blockchain technology. Tips and Tricks for You and Your Business: Personal Branding And High Ticket Sales: (3:34) Marketing With Business Owners And Consumers (7:01) Certainty And Confidence Building: (12:19) Quotable Moments: “No shortcuts to certain levels. You will have problems in different ways. It is all about resilience.” “What I realized is the money is there, you just need to channel it. And if you have the ability to channel it, you need to realize that confidence to repeat it.” Other Tidbits: This year he was awarded by clickfunnels a member of the Two Comma Club X award, for driving more than $10 million on one sales funnel only. Raoul also runs performance advertising-agencies in Germany and Dubai with more than 40 employees. He has been labeled “Kingmaker” because he builds the biggest personal brands all over German speaking Europe! Links: FunnelHackerRadio.com FunnelHackerRadio.com/freetrial FunnelHackerRadio.com/dreamcar ---Transcript--- Speaker 1:       00:00         Welcome to funnel hacker radio podcast, where we go behind the scenes and uncover the tactics and strategies top entrepreneurs are using to make more sales, dominate their markets, and how you can get those same results. Here's your host, Dave Woodward. Everybody welcome Speaker 2:       00:18         back. You guys are literally. I cannot tell you how excited I am. I've been trying to get this guy on my podcast for forever. He's one of our eight figure award winners. He's been crushing it lives out in Dubai and I want to. First of all, I'll let you guys. I'll talk more about him in just a second, but first of all right, we'll look at. Welcome to the show. Speaker 3:       00:37         Thank you so much for having me. Speaker 2:       00:40         I am so excited. You're celebrating your first wedding year anniversary here. Pretty quick archer. Yes. Yes. That's pretty exciting stuff. So he lives out in Dubai with his wife and they mean my gosh, you have to understand. Well, first time I started seeing his stuff, he actually invited Russell to come speak in Germany to a group of like 10, 15,000 business owners. I was like, what? Who are you? How did this come about? How have you created this then as you go on to find out, it was basically been selling out live events, literally hundreds of thousands of people. I mean you've been in this business a long time and crushing it and again, I think it's probably one of the neat things I look at is a most people here in the states may not know you, but in Germany and in Europe and now in Dubai, you're kind of like a Tony Robbins, grant Cardone, Tai Lopez all bundled in together as far as this massive celebrity out there. So I'm super excited, super excited to have you on. So help people understand what it is that you really do. I mean, because you've, you're doing tens of millions of dollars a year, that's not an easy feat. Speaker 3:       01:49         Yeah. Take all the personalities, you know, like all the counterparts in Europe and I'm the guy in the background doing marketing. So like a bunch of salespeople working for me, have a bunch of people were doing websites for me. I do a lot of copywriting, especially facebook advertising, do very campaigns, very big launches. Um, started like this step by step, I got another one. Speaker 2:       02:36         So tell people a little bit, what are some of the types of results you're getting for these people Speaker 3:       02:42         you already said over launches? So like for example, we launched for 48 hours, 72 hours, four days, five days, a couple of times in a year was facebook ads and everything. A lot of free plus shipping books right now was one book we sold over 100 and some other books, like five figures and yeah, like getting leads stuff. Speaker 2:       03:34         So tell me what verticals and niches are you in Speaker 3:       03:39         branding, personal branding. For example, Greg Robbins was Germany was a personality, high ticket sales in Germany and a fitness business building also. Speaker 2:       04:02         So you basically help them fill their events and then at the events you help them maximize their back of the room sales? Speaker 3:       04:10         Yes. Yes, yes. Exactly. Exactly. Yep. Speaker 2:       04:18         So typically are these paid events that you're getting people to attend? Are they free events? What's the typical range? Speaker 3:       04:25         No, the lowest ticket prices and um, the highest. Speaker 2:       04:44         Fantastic. So now they come to the event, uh, it's put on basically by the celebrities in, in Europe or in Germany. And then what types of things are they pitching at the event? What types of products or services? Speaker 3:       04:58         Yeah, the last two years we started our next live event since the end of last year, we also started the transition to online products like to mix of online products, like information products was super customer service, one life event extra, which is a additionally people can come and I think this is also where the trend is going because people, the only one paid for implementation. This is like the typical life events like the seminar you attended in the past years. They were always like, you get so much information, information, information, information. Like all the content implementation was an online course you can follow. You can give some templates. For example, for Speaker 2:       06:17         I know you've been doing a ton inside of clickfunnels as far as creating templates for, for your clients and for your users and using the share funnel links and things to make that happen. And what are the typical price points that you're selling at the event? For the next live event Speaker 3:       06:35         or one thousand nine hundred and three thousand five hundred dollars. Speaker 2:       07:01         Awesome. So are you working primarily with business owners? Are you working with consumers? What's your target primarily? Speaker 3:       07:09         Yes. It depends on the more customer focused by himself character, how he is more like 70 percent for the sales guy. For Germany, we attract way more and it's amazing ratio and of business owners like pretty cool. Speaker 2:       07:51         So how did you get into this? I mean it's not like you've got 50 years of experience doing this thing, so, uh, how'd you get started? Speaker 3:       08:04         Same day I found my first company was all my savings I had was like a fitness clothing, clothing as the time I didn't have a free program like a went to Alibaba put up the website was wordpress and so many different shops at the time. It took me like one and a half year to get started. But eventually I got started online store but it took so much time. But in the meantime, I acquired all the skills I needed to have like a basic understanding. I got pretty good at facebook advertising, so then I started to partner with some local guy who had like some agency for Seo Agency and then I became like, his partner was like 20 years older than me, like Microsoft Germany in 1920 at the time. Speaker 2:       09:43         What advice would you give to other people who are trying to figure this thing out? Speaker 3:       09:48         The focus on and uh, it's unbelievable. So like two books, which I would recommend a book is from Ryan Holiday. Ego's the enemy books and yeah, yeah, Speaker 2:       10:31         no, I totally agree. The daily Stoic in great books. I've read both of those. And again, maximum mark psycho cybernetics actually is going to be one of the books for two Comma Club x coaching students. They may actually see that coming to them shortly at one of our favorites. So Speaker 3:       10:47         yeah, Speaker 2:       10:48         super excited about that. Tell me right now you're out in Dubai. And it was kind of funny. We were sitting here before we got the recording going, you're life, you know, now I'm doing this consulting kind of on a, b, two bcm point and I don't even have business cards and these people like who are you? So I'd like you to kind of address how do you deal when you're working in Btby, when you don't have business cards and yet you still are able to get the sales. What are some of the tactics and things you're using from a B to b standpoint? Speaker 3:       11:13         Yes. In Dubai there are no, no small deal. Big, big deal. Crazy people here. And it's very funny. So I got more and more involved but they don't have no business cards, no website, no linkedin profile. I deleted it like two years ago I think. And, and yeah, and the thing is like building bullying, like people start talking why you don't need it yet because I'm good to go. I'm focusing so much on the things I work on and I need to acquire new customers right now. Pretty good status. Actually. I'm not complaining. Speaker 2:       12:19         I've love about you. Is your confidence. I mean, you are so confident for one, I mean you've got the stats to prove it. You can do what you do, but how I live, I was having this conversation, my kids the other day as far as being confident and really when you're talking to people being very, very certain because it, at least my experience has always been whoever is the most certain typically winds the winds in most situations. So how have you acquired that type of certainty and confidence? Speaker 3:       12:46         Yeah. No shortcuts to some certain levels. You will have problems in different ways. Uh, it's all about resilience and resilience and I'm very fortunate to say that I never had an easy childhood until I was a teenager, but when I'm looking back right now and it was like the biggest and best lesson I ever had. Even the biggest challenges. Yeah. Speaker 2:       13:42         That's awesome. As far as if people are trying to get ahold of you or would like to find out more information about you. I know you don't have a website, you don't have business cards. How do people find out more about you? If they'd like to reach out to. Speaker 3:       13:55         But somebody was asking me on instagram and hurt my ego a little bit, so I bought them. Speaker 2:       14:13         How much that domain cost you? That's a good one. I build brands. I know they get pretty pricey these days. Speaker 3:       14:30         Expensive right now. It's crazy. I also wanted a few months ago like that was very cheap and I got. We can offer a couple of hundred bucks last week. Yeah, it's crazy. You a lot of good funnels. You can buy the domains Speaker 2:       14:58         greatly. Appreciate your time. I know a out to buy. It's much later than it is here right now. So I appreciate your taking the time. Any parting words or advice for our listeners? Speaker 3:       15:08         Um, any advice? Probably, yeah, there was one tipping point when I figured out that was one of the launches when I just did was what Russell was saying. I read a little bit of a funnel university and they've put together like a sales page and didn't look that good. Uh, the tiger tickets. 11,000. And with facebook, just facebook ads. And what I realized the money is there, you just need to channel it. And if you have the ability to channel it, you need to realize that confidence to repeat it, like how you're building the skill and I can sell to yourself even if you're not at the stage right now, did you do generate a lot of revenues for facebook ads, is you can sell this idea to you that all the money is out there and you need to channel it directly. What Russell says pretty much have success. Yeah, Speaker 2:       16:32         I love it. Well, again, thanks so much for all that you're doing in the clickfunnels community. I know you've been using our platform quite a bit to fill in a lot of events with it. And uh, I wish you all the continued success and enjoy Dubai. Speaker 3:       16:44         No, thank you so much. I appreciate that. Speaker 4:       16:47         Hey everybody. Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to podcasts. If you don't mind, could you please share this with others, rate and review this podcast on itunes. It means the world to me where I'm trying to get to as a million downloads here in the next few months and just crush through over 650,000 and I just want to get the next few 100,000 so we can get to a million downloads and see really what I can do to help improve and and get this out to more people at the same time. If there's a topic, there's something you'd like me to share or someone you'd like me to interview, by all means, just reach out to me on facebook. You can pm me and I'll be more than happy to take any of your feedback as well as if people would like me to interview more than happy to reach out and have that conversation with you. So again, go to Itunes, rate and review this, share this podcast with others and let me know how else I can improve this or can do to make this better for you guys. Thanks.  

In this episode we take a big swim in Lake Joe Bass. What is Joe up to? http://hatfieldtaylor.com https://www.instagram.com/joetbass/ -- Speaker 1: 00:00 Good job, any job, doesn't matter what it is. Work your butt off, get promoted, come in sick, come in on days that you don't have to come in, be indispensable to the person you're working for, and continue to do that until you get to the point where you get to live your dream. Be indispensable no matter what you do. Speaker 2: 00:28 Welcome to Starve the Doubts. Speaker 3: 00:29 I'm your host, Jared Easley, and joining me today is a good friend of mine, someone I've known for many, many years and I've seen through the hills, through the valleys, through the good times, through the Times that were challenging. My friend Joe Bass. Joe, welcome to starve the doubts. Hey, thanks Jared. What's up man? They're just sounded nice. And Chris for that microphone. You got there? A professional podcaster. Speaker 1: 00:51 Well, you know, we've got them for two different reasons. It's funny. We're both rocking the Heils. Aren't you rocking a Heil? I am, yeah. I got the PR 40, but I, you know, I'm a nerd. I, I've got my ham radio set up here and you know, Bob Heil, I don't know if you know much about. Oh really? Yeah, he's got a storied past man. Yeah, I mean, you know, with the WHO and what was it the talk box with a who was a Peter Frampton, is that correct? Speaker 3: 01:15 It sounds correct. He's definitely had some, uh, with some, some big name people back in the day. So Speaker 1: 01:22 yeah, he's an am guy though. Uh, so he kinda is in the hobby as well and that's where it started and he's, he's also an organist. I don't know if you've ever worn. Speaker 3: 01:34 It's funny you bring up organist. I'm going to go ahead and throw this out there. The other day I found myself in chanted. I think that's a good word. Listening on Youtube to A. Are you familiar with the movie interstellar? Tell me who's in it. I think so. Matthew mcconaughey. Hey, I love that movie. It's a Scifi movie. Anyway, the soundtrack who, uh, that was by Zimmerman, somebody's got a church organ and like an old classic church somewhere and played the soundtrack of that album and I mean I listen to that. I was blown away. I really liked that movie, but just hearing that music on an organ that was like I worked, I got to know a lot of work done listening to. But anyway. Awesome. Way Off Topic Joe. Let's not mess around with any of that. Let's talk about you joe. Let's start out with how in the world did we meet? Oh Speaker 1: 02:23 Gosh, how did we meet? I mean, I know we met a really long time ago. We met through church probably in middle school at the time. Yeah, I'd say so. I guess I was probably. I don't know what 14. Speaker 3: 02:35 That might be true. Probably my first memory of you, Joe, is your awareness fish tee shirt. There you go. I still love him to this day. All right, so let's talk about that for a moment. Like, like Montgomery, Alabama. I just don't think that's a city where people listen to fish, but. No, no, no. They do actually. Now they're everywhere in the world. Did you get into that kind of music growing up in, in what some would consider a, you know, a southern Redneck town? Speaker 1: 03:04 Jeez. I mean, you know, some shady characters were involved, I think it was like we talked about earlier on another podcast, you know, selling grilled cheeses and mountain dews at concerts, you know, so that you could pay for whatever it Support the show (https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_s-xclick&hosted_button_id=CQWQVRBGQCK7E&source=url)

Why Dave Decided to talk to Loyd Hale: Loyd Hale is the CEO of Modoma Health and Wellness, and currently owns medically directed health and wellness clinics in Dallas, Texas, specializing in physical medicine and rehabilitation. The clinics combine the benefits of massage with the medical practicality of physical therapy. A member of the prestigious 2 comma club and 8- figure award winner; Loyd discusses how to discover, integrate, and optimize using funnels for lead generation and model building aimed for practice growth. Tips and Tricks for You and Your Business: Lead Generation Model And Facebook Ads: (4:43) Lifetime Value Of Clients: (11:33) Incorporating Clients Into Your Business Model: (14:35) Finding The Right People To Fill The Right Holes (20:03) Quotable Moments: "It always comes down to whoever can spend the most acquiring customers wins." "What would it look like if holistic practitioners were at the forefront of medicine." "Don't waste money on facebook ads that aren't working for you!" Other Tidbits: Loyd discusses how he was able to develop four integrated clinics using a multidisciplinary approach to treating patients. He talks about his journey to the prestigious 2-comma club and what has changed since the beginning. Loyd also passes on great tips about lead generation and advice to pursuing entrepreneurs. Links: FunnelHackerRadio.com FunnelHackerRadio.com/freetrial FunnelHackerRadio.com/dreamcar ---Transcript--- Speaker 1:   00:00       Welcome to funnel hacker radio podcast, where we go behind the scenes and uncover the tactics and strategies top entrepreneurs are using to make more sales, dominate their markets, and how you can get those same results. Here's your host, Dave Woodward. Everybody. Welcome back. Speaker 2:   00:18       This is funnel hacker radio. We're kind of on a new little toy car. I bought miles and he's going to help you with the interview as well. Um, my name's Dave Woodward, but the most important person is the one we're bringing on right now. I want to introduce you to one of our winners. He actually happens to be our newest eight figure award winner. And let me introduce you to the CEO of Madonna, Mr Dr. and Mr. which I go by here. Mr. Mr. Mr Lloyd here. Welcome to the show man. Speaker 3:   00:45       Hey, thanks for having me. I'm excited for this. Actually Speaker 2:   00:49       this is gonna be a lot of fun for us. So I tell people a little bit about your background. Did Isaac, chiropractor everything else and kind of what in the world are using clickfunnels for? Speaker 3:   00:59       Yeah, we will. First we use clickfunnels for like lead generation and then coming in for like a new patient, a promotion. And then really how I started was I, I'm actually not a chiropractor too, a lot of people, so we actually own a, an MSO is a management service organization and then uh, so the short of it is I uh, didn't know what I wanted to do with my life. Speaker 2:   01:27       Join the crowd. A lot of us are in that same situation, not knowing. Speaker 3:   01:31       So, um, I uh, I've seen him at a conference at school. My wife said, hey, you should probably volunteer somewhere to see if you like it. And I was like, well that's probably smart. And then so I volunteered there and then through the process, a big surgery, the marketing, they're now really liked that. I really saw that I liked the business side of it more in creating kind of an infrastructure so that other people can help people, you know, I saw kind of the compound result of creating a business that could satisfy that, you know, instead of actually being the provider that actually did the treatment, whatever it was. And so, um, you know, I started developing the site idea about incorporating, integrating, like doing an integrated clinic where you incorporate massage, stem cell there, you know, just stuff like that. And then it's uh, you know, we opened the first one about five years ago and I, uh, it was just me and my business partner and then it just kinda snowballed. Now we have four locations, like in the Dallas, Fort Worth area, and then this year, but hopefully next year we'll start franchising it too. So we're, we're getting geared up for that too. We actually have a james frill coming in next week to help us with our systems. Speaker 2:   02:50       Oh, fantastic. Speaker 3:   02:52       Yeah. Right, right. Yeah, I'm super excited about that. I'm trying not to like create like change anything right now. Speaker 2:   03:05       So basically the business model is, so it's the traditional chiropractic and then you've added massage. And what else did you add to it to cut the audio broke up there? Speaker 3:   03:14       Yeah, no, it's um, w we don't actually do chiropractic at all. Oh really? Speaker 2:   03:20       I'm so sorry. For some reason I got on this chiropractic kick, right? Speaker 3:   03:23       Apologize. Oh No, no, no, no, no, um, no because I came from a chiropractic background. Uh, that's what. No, it's just a no, it's physical therapy and Rehab and then we incorporate a massage into it too. Oh cool. So it's just kind of a, I, I, I worked at this wellness clinic that they, he sold this color that was like 150 bucks and like no one wanted to buy it, you know, and then when they did buy it, like it hurt their neck. So I was like, well why don't we sell like a mock, moderately priced pillow that actually people would use people just love like the environment, like massage, spa environment. So I was like, well this way we can really kind of emphasize that, that personalized care component. And so that's where it's evolved in integrated medicine. We created a framework is a discovery, integrate, optimize, and it's a. So at the center of that we put the person at the center of care, you know, so everything's really personalized to their specific needs, you know. Speaker 2:   04:34       So like on that are you, is a lot of this paid for by insurance? It's all cash and carry type of staff, both. It's a hybrid hybrid. Get and are you looking obviously as far as the franchise before we talked about the franchise thing, let's kind of go back with your current model. Obviously we're looking right now and behind you it's a two comma club plaques. So you've already hit the had. What'd you do first? Hit the first million, Speaker 3:   05:00       um, spend a lot of money on facebook. Speaker 2:   05:05       So you driving facebook ads in the application or they come in Speaker 3:   05:11       is often for a new client, new patient, special new. We actually call people clients before they actually start care, you know, because when we do, we have a massage component where there would, there's not any kind of medical oversight so they can get a massage with without that. And so when they're initiating with us, we typically just call it a of them a client. Speaker 2:   05:35       So what's the lead Gen model then? You're going from facebook ad, what are they, what's the first thing you're targeting Speaker 3:   05:41       the targeting as in what kind of person that. No, as far as the funnel, what's, where are you going to a landing page and they opt in there and then they go to what are they opting in for? A new client special, like an introductory like massage package. Yep. And then, uh, they go to, they don't pay for it there. Then you go to the scheduling page and then they request the appointment and then you know, if they, you know, so every step on the process. So if they drop out of it, there's a contingency, you know, we do a lot of text messaging. Okay. So if they opt in, the don't go to the light, you know, don't opt in, like don't actually request the appointment, then there's, we're pushing them to request, you know, and if they don't, uh, if they request and then we're pushing them to show. So we created kind of a methodology like, so like we said, you know, we won't call it different things. So it's kind of like we say no and push to request and that would be our play for that, you know. And so like every step, you know, we systemize it and you know, less holes Speaker 2:   06:51       for some reason I got the lawnmower, decided to landscape cut the grass anyway, so I want to kind of make sure. So if people are listening here, the idea then is you're taking them on a facebook ad. What's the demographic you're typically targeting then? Is it a female from a massage type of thing? You go and male and female? Speaker 3:   07:07       Yeah. We've always struggled with guys getting guys in. So a lot of times the women will like a added. They're hooked on the post and that's how we get guys in more than anything we don't, I don't even, I just do all to women. Okay. All right. Best what age group? Yeah, too many. What we usually do 28 to 64. Speaker 2:   07:30       Okay. So basically we between 28 to 64 to come in for a free massage or Speaker 3:   07:36       it's 49 bucks or nine bucks. I think we're going to raise the price actually to. I think it's probably too cheap because we don't want to be the cheapest. Speaker 2:   07:48       So they come in for the 49 bucks a what? What software are you using as far as the texting or using twillio? Skipio what do you typically use Speaker 3:   07:55       your phone? What does it fix your phone? Yeah. Speaker 2:   08:01       And then, so the followup that is through text or you also do an email and messenger? Speaker 3:   08:06       Uh, no, no, I've tried to play with Messenger. I just technically we could but the numbers didn't bear out to focus on it and the text messaging seems to be the best for us maybe for a local business. You know, so I, that's what my assumption was. I was trying to get messaging to work hardcore. I spent a lot of time and money and I just couldn't get it to work. I had this whole idea what I was trying to like get people to opt into messenger and then had this like health tips daily, you know, every other, you know, it just wasn't. Finally I just say, okay, enough's enough. I can't. Speaker 2:   08:41       So you bought your follow up then is through text at. Walk me through the rest of the funnel. So they come in, basically they sign up for a free client massage type of thing. Forty nine bucks. Speaker 3:   08:51       Yeah. So then they have a console with our, uh, with our wellness. We call them wellness coordinators and then they do, it feels like it's a good fit, you know, then they'll do introduce our medical staff there and they'll do like a traditional, like orthopedic exam, you see see what muscle imbalances, you know, anybody like anybody would know essentially that because anything about that. And then based off that we develop a care plan for them and then our wellness coordinator goes over it, incorporates the insurance and whatever the out of pocket would be. And then where the sale happens, Levy on patient education. Really not really a hard push type of sales type of thing that we try to focus on that, you know, so a lot of people just don't understand how the other normal sitting at a desk all day is going to affect them. Speaker 3:   09:46       And I think, well I have a crick in my, you know, like I need to go get a massage and I had a crick in my neck. That's kind of what, you know, it's like, well there's like repetitive injury happening right there, you know, so that's something that you can diagnose and that's something that can be treatable and you know, and then if you're can't change your job, you know, then there's something that, there's a wellness component of that that needs to be had to make sure that your function properly. You know, I'm sitting here adjusting my posture as I'm saying it. I'm like, no, everybody does it. Everybody. I actually bought it. So speaking of little gidgets and gadgets on facebook, I saw this little thing that you put in the middle of your back and it's supposed to trip. And I've learned that his act does absolutely no good if it sits on the desk and not on your back. Speaker 3:   10:34       Right, right. Well, you'd be surprised that we didn't talk about this. And they're like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I find myself adjusting. I'm like, Oh, I have a question for you because taking a step back, you said right now you're targeting only females and then they ended like tagging their spouse or boyfriend or a guy that they know. Would you say is the percentage of female to male ratio coming in for the. Yeah, it's probably 70, 30, 80 slash 20. I mean it's very high in a female. Okay. But you guys pretty quickly not to waste money on a demographic that wasn't paying attention to the ads and letting the demographic retargeting. Right, right, right, right, right. I was just interested in kind of how that works there. So thank you. So a lot of money spent on ads that weren't producing and then you look at the insights and like, okay, it's all female. Speaker 3:   11:33       Let's maybe just walk me through as far as kind of what the, what's the lifetime value of that client? They're basically coming in at $49 bucks. What's, first of all, what's it cost to acquire that customer? Uh, estimate we are good with $200 acquisition cost then a 250. But our life, like on average is about $3,500. We estimate some, you know, some more, some less. I mean I was looking at the numbers the other day. There's somebody because they did a bunch of stuff that means it was chronic. So this is not, this is super unusual, but I think there one lady that needed like $50,000 worth of stuff. So I mean Shit, you know. But on average we see about 35 Speaker 2:   12:19       did. That's crazy. That's pretty good. I'll take that 10 to 15 next. All Day long. Yeah. Yeah. Great. Ron. Speaker 3:   12:26       Well, and then allows us to kind of know like, because our basic or you know, like a massage envy is our basically our, you know, we're competitors with them. That's the, I mean technically we're not done functionally from a market standpoint. That's our nearest competitor. And so, uh, you know, I can spend when they, I think their massages are like 49, 69 bucks. So for a membership or something like that. So I can spend more money to acquire a customer and they can then they would make a whole year when I come from, you know what I'm saying? So it's like, you know, it just makes more sense to do it this way. You know, Speaker 2:   13:08       man, I hope people are listening to understand that. And it's always comes down to whoever can spend the most. Acquire a customer wins the game. Yeah, right. It's always been that way. All of a sudden you'll find that a student massage envy is going to be referring to your clients because it's cheaper for them. Yeah. Oh, right, right, right. So you went from one clinic, not a four, four or five and helped me understand kind of your idea as far as why go to the franchise. Speaker 3:   13:36       Oh, just because um, um, what do you think? It's because of that I want to. So okay. So really the long and the short of it is I want to in some small way like affect healthcare, you know, like, so people kind of at least like I, I, I had this consultant when we first started that like basically said like what, what, what would it look like if like holistic practitioners that are at the forefront of medicine, you know, shocked me how like self centered it was to think that okay, just to clinics and you know, I'm good, you know, like, you know, and that'd be a lot easier to manage. And then I watched it, I watched this documentary, I think it was on pbs and it was basically this phd. He figured out how to like slow down dementia and Alzheimer's and it was basically like extra size in nutrition petition Medicare and medical pay for it. Speaker 3:   14:35       And his, his rationale was like, well it needs to be profitable for the doctors to do it. And so like, if I can create a model, like a holistic model that puts the patient at the center and effect in some, maybe in some small way how healthcare is perceived, that's like, that's my end, you know? And then a byproduct of that would be, yeah, make a bunch of money. Right. You know, so, so that's what I mean. And that's why I feel super passionate about this is because, you know, at the end, you know, people might think, well, it's just the massage, you're just doing this, you know, it's like, yeah, but it's like the same thing with the pillow analogy. I'm want to give them something they want and then hopefully that's the domino that affects how they look at their health in general, you know, so like, as we evolve as a company too, we want to incorporate more and more of those aspects of that, you know. Speaker 3:   15:26       So, uh, and that's why we're, we started a gym because right now the, the, uh, right now it's more manual therapy, like in like a less active things. But the gym is to help us kind of figure out what our niches in that in the more active category, you know, incorporating the medical into that aspect of it too, you know, somebody. Is The gym part of the exact same facility or is it a separate place? Well, we have one location that is, has a, has a gym and like the massage and wellness component of it too. And that's where we're figuring out like what, how we're gonna how are we going to innovate in that way incorporating medical into it, you know, it's kind of like a playground for us to figure that out. Speaker 2:   16:11       I love it. Yeah. You have your own little skunk works built in. Speaker 3:   16:15       Yeah, yeah, yeah. What just happened to be that, that location was going to cost us the same amount of money to build out just for the massage. We've got a great deal on that location. So we just figured, hey, let's take the plunge. And then, then you find out how much like gym equipment is Speaker 2:   16:33       like $250,000 later. You're like, I'll do this to figure this out now. That's fantastic. So you basically got one comma club last year, you just now reached out and cross through 10 million now. It's kind of what, what took you from where you were to where you are now? Speaker 3:   16:54       Yeah, the combination of the four locations and then help optimize in that process and then getting more exact numbers. And I spend, you know, I spent a lot of money on facebook. I spend probably 40 grand a month on facebook, you know, and now we have a marketing team, you know, you're scaling scaling it. So, uh, what are, what are some of the things you've learned through the scaling aspect? Uh, well I mean a defer to James about that, but. Speaker 3:   17:27       No, but, uh, I would, I know to me it's just that people are super important and for me I think the biggest challenge for me, I see a because last year we opened two locations, move our original location to a new place that's more a, it looks like more of our friend what a franchise will look like. And so for me, I just realized how much I was like falling short as a CEO, not creating a framework so that people can function independently of myself, you know. So, and then also, I mean I think it's also, you know, the kind of the counter side of that too is like I couldn't in good conscience just let them handle something without them, like really understanding our vision too. So I have to create a framework in which those things can happen, you know, embedded in with the vision, you know. So that's why, that's why I was just like, okay, we need to reach out to Jameson a figure this out, you know. So Speaker 2:   18:22       No, I love that. That's I think and my entrepreneurial journey. That's the one thing I've realized that there was many times where I was the biggest obstacle in the, of that was as the CEO, I wasn't in a situation to where I was willing to let go of things. And then other times when I did let go of it, I didn't give those people always giving things to know and understanding that really where we wanted to go. All of a sudden I got frustrated with them and they're going, dude, you never told us anything. He just basically said run with it. Yeah. Right, right, right, right. Speaker 3:   18:54       Yeah. To me and also our hiring process presses evolved like, so like we really want people to be kind of like willing to catch the vision for Speaker 3:   19:07       can be a tendency to, for entrepreneurs just like, okay, plugging this hole with this person, they're a warm body, you know, when really I'd rather just maybe slow down and find the right person. And we've incorporated a lot of testing, personality testing and you know, um, and so, and then also you get better at hiring too, you kinda can sniff that out. So it's, I mean this is my first company I've ever owned, so it's like the evolution of how I'm thinking about things. And you know, which is nice though, I don't know how other people. I don't know how the people that just do a business to make money, I don't know how they would want to know the creative juices flow a lot more when you're passionate about it and you have a vision for something to and so then now you can connect that vision when you're hiring someone like okay, are they going to fit in that you know, are going to fit in that kind of like for that, Speaker 2:   20:00       say it one more time. I think it would fit in that part. Speaker 3:   20:03       No, so I mean if you have a vision, right? So like now you can find the right person to fit where you want to go to not just for that job, you know? So because I mean I'm one person, I know a lot of people. I'm not like, I'm not like the Super Smart, you know, I'm not, you know what I'm saying? It's really more of like that passion about like, and I get very creative when it's connected to that. I've tried to make money in the past just to make money and I just was not good at it. You know, I wouldn't call myself an entrepreneur, you know, like, I mean, I think maybe on the outside looking in I can see that, but I don't, I just more of a creative problem solver in relationship to this vision that we have, like how do I get from point a to point b, you know, the most effective way possible. You know, so. Speaker 2:   20:53       Well I appreciate that. I know that's a, as we've looked at at hiring staff here, that's the main thing we've really tried to do is to find the very best people and if we have to move them around as far as the right seat on the bus, we'll do that. It's getting the right person then trying to find a person to fill a hole. Speaker 3:   21:11       Yeah. Right, right. Yeah. Good degree is. It was, it was an eye opening book for me. Yeah. Speaker 2:   21:18       I also think it's interesting to. You don't consider yourself an entrepreneur and yet at the same time you're extremely passionate about solving a problem. To me, that's really what entrepreneurs do. They see a problem that's out there. They're going, you know what? I am extremely passionate about solving that problem myself, but for all the lives of the people that's going to bless and to me, Speaker 3:   21:39       you gave me chills when you said it. Honestly. That's what honestly, that's what it is, right? But you want to affect those people and how like the kind of like goodwill hunting was like, he was in there having that interview with that guy and he was like, well, if I take this job, I'm going to be doing this, like doing this and it's going to affect my friend here and he's going to do all. I was just like, man, just to think of the people that could possibly be affected by, you know, in their lives, change in some positive way. You know? That's amazing to me. Speaker 2:   22:10       You know, I, again, I get chills every time I think about. It's kind of our whole passion with clickfunnels. Everything else is free and entrepreneurs conference whatever it is they really, truly want. And I think the first thing obviously is that financial freedom you guys mentioned. I see the same path for a lot of us. We start off going, I got to put food on my table. I don't care what it takes. I got to get that covered. As soon as that's covered, it's like, okay, what do I really want to do? And that's where you start going out facility. Again, massive congratulations to you at all that you've done. Obviously getting their two comma club plaque is a super cool award over 320 now, but more importantly, I think miles was number 19. Number 21. Hey, first person to get our favorite number two 2121 fate. It was fate. Your 21st person to actually get over $10,000,000 through a funnel. So a congratulations, but we're super excited for you. Yeah, appreciate it. Thanks a lot. Well, Lord, if people wanted to reach out to you, what's the best place or how should they reach out to you? Speaker 3:   23:09       Yeah, I started a private facebook group. You can check it out. He'll have healthcare professionals, gross secrets, and then um, you know, if you go in there, I said I'll put a template in there of like our process so you can check it out and see. So, Speaker 2:   23:23       and for those of you don't understand how spelled healthcare like me, I did health space care. It's actually healthcare with no spaces and it comes up real fast that way. Well look, thanks so much, but anything else miles? No, I've got my question answered. Don't waste money on facebook ads that aren't working for you working in. It's simple when you think about it. You don't just do stuff that works and forget everything else. Exactly. Congratulations, but you appreciate it. Speaker 4:   23:59       Okay. Hey everybody, thank you so much for taking the time to listen to podcasts. If you don't mind, could you please share this with others, rate and review this podcast on itunes. It means the world to me where I'm trying to get to as a million downloads here in the next few months and just crush through over $650,000 and I just want to get the next few 100,000 so we can get to a million downloads and see really what I can do to help improve and and get this out to more people at the same time. If there's a topic, there's something you'd like me to share or someone you'd like me to interview, by all means, just reach out to me on facebook. You can pm me and I'll be more than happy to take any of your feedback as well as if people you like me to interview more than happy to reach out and have that conversation with you. So again, go to Itunes, rate and review this, share this podcast with others and let me know how else I can improve this or what I can do that do to make this better for you guys. Thanks.

Why Dave Decided to talk to Carolina Millan: Carolina Millan is an Entrepreneur, Speaker, Investor and Digital Marketing Consultant from Chile. She started online in 2008, but it wasn’t until 2012 that she had her major breakthrough online with affiliate marketing. After years of trying program after program she cracked the code to making money online and now travels around the World, living life, working with clients, creating online training programs and hosting workshops. She's the host of the podcast- Beyond The Hustle. She’s also the founder of Social Ads Agency and Al Cuadrado Marketing & Branding, where she and her team provide Digital Marketing and Social Media Management & Growth services. She is a member of the prestigious 2-Comma Club. Tips and Tricks for You and Your Business: Affiliate Marketing: The Do’s and Dont’s (5:27) Free Strategies (10:12) Pay Traffic Sources (13:42) Carolina’s Podcast Branding (16:50) Coaching Strategies and Importance (22:22) Quotable Moments: "It's really simple to set yourself apart by being yourself, creating some valuable content, and then recommending something." "There are always ways to add more value and be able to monetize the leads, but again, always figure out how to add value first before asking for the sell." Other Tidbits: Carolina helps people discover the true value in their brands by tailoring it to their desire. She discusses strategies on coaching, building and running funnels, facebooks ads, email marketing and much more. Carolina speaks about her journey to reaching the 2-comma club and reflects on what she has accomplished up to this point in her career. Links: FunnelHackerRadio.com FunnelHackerRadio.com/freetrial FunnelHackerRadio.com/dreamcar ---Transcript--- Speaker 1:       00:00         Welcome to funnel hacker radio podcast, where we go behind the scenes and uncover the tactics and strategies top entrepreneurs are using to make more sales, dominate their markets, and how you can get those same results. Here's your host, Dave Woodward. Everybody. Welcome back to funnel hacker radio. This is going to be a lot of fun today. Uh, I've been trying to get Speaker 2:       00:22         this woman on my show up for ever and she's so busy. You've got so much stuff going on. So you guys are in for a massive tree. I want to introduce you guys driving to Milan. Malcolm. Speaker 3:       00:31         Hey Dave. Thank you for having me. Speaker 2:       00:33         So we have something in common now and that is, I don't know if you know, uh, my oldest son, Chandler just got married and he married a Chilean. Speaker 3:       00:40         I had no idea. Congratulations. Great. Speaker 2:       00:44         It was a great choice. Super excited. And so a Francisca Benevidez. I'm going to have to learn Spanish now. Are you ever coming to killer? Then? You know what, we'll have to talk more about that later, but the answer is going to be obviously yes, at some point for sure. I just don't know when she's talked a ton about it. She lived down in Santiago and a couple of other places and again, it's place. It's becoming much more near and dear to my heart all of the time and we've talked about expanding click funnels into the Latin Marta anyways, and again. It's a ton of fun. We're excited about that. There's such a huge opportunity, huge opportunity for the whole digital marketing space. Again, it's, I know you've done a ton in that market. You're a huge affiliate marketer. You've done tons of two comma club winner with click funnels and just such an honor to have you on the show. So thank you so much for taking the time. Speaker 3:       01:33         Thank you dave. Speaker 2:       01:34         So want to find out, first of all, tell people a little bit about your background. I know you've, uh, you've done a lot. You've got a podcast right now. You're on podcast is beyond the hustle.com. You've interviewed some huge people, Gary Vee, and I know grant cardone you've been bugging the crap out of me to get Russell on the show. I know that we will, but uh, it's one of those things where, again, I'm just so I'm happy to see your success, but I don't know if I want other people to know what you've done, so if you don't mind just take a few minutes and kind of introduce yourself to our audience. Speaker 3:       02:07         Yes, for sure. So, well, as you said, I'm from Chile and I have been doing digital marketing for the past 10 years or so when I was at my first job, my first and last job. I'm very glad for that and I was really fresh out of university. I was really, I was ready to become another brick in the wall, you know, get a job, a work until I get old and retire and Blah, Blah Blah when really out of the blue it was a colleague at work that approached me about a multilevel marketing thing and I had never heard about it. I was like, hmm, what is this thing? Oh yeah, it's like herbalife, but it's different. Okay, sure. Um, and so that was really my first approach at doing something for myself like my entire life. While I was at at university, I never ever tried to do anything related to entrepreneurship. I was too shy. I am. I hated speaking on stage or in front of people. Like really? I was really different and so I'm really grateful for that experience even though I didn't do well at all with that business. Speaker 2:       03:22         That's important for people to understand and know that you know what that's okay. And most important is it's that effort. It's what you learned about yourself. I love network marketing because it's probably one of the first entrees and a lot of people have into their own business. So I think it's great. Speaker 3:       03:36         Exactly. Like I think it's the easiest way to get a taste of what it's like to be independent. And so I'm super grateful for the experience. I learned a lot. I learned what not to do, especially because, because really where the girl who started me into this, she had no idea what she was doing. She was making lists of friends and family and stuff like that. Um, and luckily I went on Google and that's how I discovered a bunch of gurus that I still follow today, uh, who were talking about how to do network marketing the right way and they were talking about attraction marketing and all of this brand new concepts for me. And I dive deeper into it. I got on social media, I started building my personal brand, my first blog in 2009. I'm in Spanish at the time. I wasn't getting into the English market yet even though I always loved the language. Speaker 3:       04:25         And, and slowly I started making a name for myself locally here in Chile. I started getting interviewed by newspapers. Hey, so you're doing this twitter saying what is it, how do you do it? How do you have so many followers? So like, well, I just add value. I just, you know, I just post things that I find interesting and I share them with people and they reshare them and they follow me and stuff. Um, and that's how I started. And then a couple of years later I was able to quit my job because I had a few clients, I wasn't even trying to get clients, but a few people saw me doing social media and doing it well and they asked me for help. So I said, sure, I can help you with your twitter with your facebook. And that's how I started really. And, um, I'm, I'm really glad for that because that opened a lot of other doors for me. Um, I discovered a lot of things that I didn't know were possible to do online. Right. For me, the Internet was for entertainment research. Speaker 2:       05:22         Well, I want to dive in and talk about one of the things I saw on your blog that you spoke at affiliate summit west. Speaker 3:       05:29         Um, yeah. In, in Las Vegas in January. Now I'm speaking in, in New York in July. Yes. Speaker 2:       05:34         So for those people who aren't familiar with affiliate summit is a huge event. Uh, they have an east coast or the West Coast, New York and Vegas once a, basically a spring or a January event and typically October in the summertime. And the cool thing about is they typically only bring on people who are big affiliates who can help other people become affiliates. So the people who are listening to understand marketing, clickfunnels has their own affiliate program where you actually, we pay you to basically promote click funnels, similar to how other Amazon, anyone else basically pay people who basically byproducts or things through them and every product or every company will have a lot of different affiliate type of marketing. You've done an amazing job at affiliate marketing and so if you don't mind, how does a person from Chile all of a sudden get the stage in one of the biggest stages for affiliate marketing in and then not only does an amazing job in January, but gets invited back to speak at the New York one. So tell people about your experience to feel like marketing. What are the things that you've done? One of the things that work and affiliate marketing and obviously telling people those things. Yeah, Speaker 3:       06:37         absolutely. Yeah. So well, my first approach at affiliate marketing, I again like with with network marketing, I didn't know what I was doing. I was just grabbing links, posting them around, um, but then it was what I said before about the whole concept of attraction marketing. That's what's made the difference for me building a personal brand where instead of spamming people with affiliate links, right? Oh, hey, buy this software because it's so great, you know, uh, or buy this ebook or whatever. Instead of doing that and trying to get people to buy right away, you first add value to them. You either write a blog post about it, you make a video about it, you tell people about it, you add value, teach them something, and then you can recommend whether it's something that you made yourself, your own course, your own program or an affiliate marketing platform such as with click funnels has, which by the way recently I made my first 10,000 in commissions with click funnels without even trying that much. So I'm like, okay, I gotta take this more seriously. Speaker 2:       07:37         You really do because I want when I want to promote and basically have you pay for one of your cars. So that'd be good. Speaker 3:       07:42         I want see it. Trust me, I have a plan I haven't thought so. That's really, and for me with affiliate marketing, I have to promote something that I've tried myself first because you can go on a ton of websites such as clickbank, Jv, zoo, and the bunch of others. You can find whatever you want and get an affiliate link and then posted around the Internet and get a commission, but it's so much more powerful and it really sets you apart when you have tried the software that Ebook, the program, um, and then you can speak from experience and genuinely recommended to people because people are looking for that. People are looking for people they can trust. Uh, there's just so much going on on the Internet that it's really simple to set yourself apart by being yourself, creating some valuable content and then recommending something. And of course, paid traffic place of really important role there. For me, I've made a lot of sales and affiliate marketing organically through youtube and other avenues. But when you, when you mix that with paid traffic, that's when you get a really, really good combination. Speaker 2:       08:50         Oh, I love it. So tell people I want to, if you don't mind, give people just a few ideas of what they can do for free if they don't have a budget and then later we'll talk about as far as patriotic, but if you don't have a budget. So first of all, I can't thank you enough for clarifying. One of the things that drives huge pet peeve of mine when it comes to affiliate marketing and that is I see a lot of people who think that they're just going to go find out whatever the best converting product is and that's what they're going to try to promote. There's, I think in today's world, authenticity and transparency is so critical and if you can say that, listen, I'm using this, I know it and it's funny. I've, of the 62 cars that we've given away, not one of those people has been an affiliate who doesn't have. It, doesn't use click funnels and I think that it kind of goes to if you want real success, you have to own use and, and really consume the product that you're promoting. So I appreciate your clarifying that. Speaker 3:       09:38         Yeah, definitely because it's a huge misconception. People are always looking at what's the best offer, you know, what's the best offer to promote, what pays the most money that's not, that's not where your focus should be. It should be in, first of all, is it valuable because there could be a bunch of things paying really good money, but they're not good, they're not valued and, and then if you're not even using it, it's just not sustainable for you to promote something you don't believe in. Right. It's just for me, it has to be, you have to be authentic no matter what. Like that's very important for me. Speaker 2:       10:12         I appreciate that. So what are some of the free strategies that affiliate could use? Speaker 3:       10:16         Yeah, so for me, what has worked really well has been youtube. I mentioned, I mentioned it casually, I've been doing youtube videos on my first videos are not worth mentioning but been on, you'd have in a youth center the same way. It's like looking at an old photo album. So I, I've been on youtube since it started, like since before Google bought it, so 2005. Um, and I, I got on youtube just to watch, you know, music videos and stuff like that, but I started uploading my own videos around 2010 and those are the embarrassing videos that are still there. Uh, and mostly what I deal with youtube is I follow a lot of Gary v's advice, right? I do, I document a lot of what I do and I've been doing a Vlog. Um, and I upload a lot of videos where I teach something, so if I learned something new or implement something new and it works for me, I have a little whiteboard and then I go and I teach people stuff. Speaker 3:       11:20         People love videos where they can learn something where they feel they're getting value from you in, in a, in a classroom type of way, like literally with a, with a whiteboard or a blackboard. And they love that. They also, people love tutorials as well. I know when I started my podcast it was, there were so many things I had to learn that were brand new for me. So I, I did it. And then I went ahead and I met a podcast tutorial and I, Hey, this is how you start your podcast, right? Little things like that that you can do for free and that establish you as an expert in your field. So I have videos like that, tutorials, I have videos also. I do have a lot of lifestyle videos where I'm traveling and I'm sharing with people nice places where I go so that they see them walking the talk, right? Speaker 3:       12:08         Hey. So I talk about lifestyle and having a better designing your life, having a better life. I'm out there doing that, right? I'm investing in experiences and I'm investing in seminars, you know, uh, so all of those things, I document them, I make videos about them and then I upload them. And that's, that's probably the best free way that you can use today that you can leverage today to get traffic. So affiliate link in that to actually make money. So the cool thing about youtube is that now you can put links in the videos with this feature called Youtube cards. So you can actually talk about something and have a link pop up in the corner of the video, like, hey, check, check out this program or click here to learn more or something, uh, that works really well to generate leads. And, and then of course you have the description of the video and then if you have, you know, in the description, you can put a clickable link as well to whatever it is you're talking about in the video. Speaker 3:       13:05         I just have a call to action in the video and tell people, hey, the lincolns isn't the description. Um, if you know how to edit video, you can also just put the video, the link in the video so people see it and then they can type it on their browser. Uh, there's so many ways to get your affiliate link in there. Um, and the more, the more content you upload, the more consistent you are a, if you post your youtube video also in instagram and facebook and you blog about it on your website, et Cetera, you give it more distribution and then you have more options with more people seeing it. And finding it of course. So that's something that has worked for me really well. Speaker 2:       13:43         I think that's awesome. So Youtube has been probably one of the biggest things for you that you made mention of as far as if a person wants to go out and take those videos and they either use the videos or other assets to do paid traffic. What are some of the paid traffic sources of your funding that work real well from an affiliate standpoint? Speaker 3:       14:00         [inaudible] for me it has been mostly facebook advertising and Instagram, right? A lot of my ads, we put them on both platforms because you can do that directly from facebook. And, and what I do many times is I create shorter versions of the youtube video to go on a facebook ad, um, because people's attention span on facebook is lower than youtube because people go on youtube to watch videos on facebook. People do multiple things, so they're not willing to spend every. Depends on the video, but on average they're not going to watch more than two, three minutes. And that's already pushing it a bit. So I either cut parts of videos and just put a section of it and then I invite people hate watch the full video on youtube if I want to send them to my youtube channel that I, that's what I would do with a paid ad or if I'm inviting them, let's say a Webinar, I'm hosting a Webinar for something, I will create a video especially for that, especially for facebook, for facebook ad me introducing myself really briefly keep it under 90 seconds and just invite people to a special training where I'm going to be talking about this, this and this. Speaker 3:       15:10         Get the link register now. So I do that a lot for you too. Sorry for facebook advertising where I create videos especially for that. And I think the same video would also work on youtube if you wanted to do paid ads on Youtube, which I haven't done a whole lot of yet. Um, but the, the logic is pretty much the same. You know, you have a quick video invite people to something and have the call to action. Get them on the funnel, click the link and register. And there you can have either an affiliate opportunity that you're promoting or Webinar or a free Ebook, a free report, a video series. I mean there's just so many options, so many things you can do. So. Speaker 2:       15:48         So I'm paid stuff. You're always taking them typically to a landing page where you're capturing their information for follow up later. Speaker 3:       15:53         Exactly. And I either I do a lot of funnels where after they opt in I immediately have something to offer them right away. So if they opted in for something for free, hey check your email, your ebooks going to be there soon, but you know, stay with me for a few minutes because I have something else to share with you. And then I sell them something else or also in the followup sequence, invite them later to a webinar or something. So there's, there are always ways to add more value and be able to monetize the leads. But again, always figured out how to add value first before Speaker 2:       16:29         asking for the sale. That's been one thing that I've seen a lot of people have a lot of success with these days is actually putting on the thank you page, an offer a certain. Basically you're congratulating you. I know it's going to be in your email, all that stuff, but by the way, almost their thank you page almost becomes like an Oto page. Speaker 3:       16:47         That's exactly what I do and it works really well if you establish that trust and that rapport with people. Speaker 2:       16:53         That's fantastic. Well, I'm curious, you obviously do a lot right now with your pot, with your podcast, beyond the hustle. Are you using that to what? What's your purpose behind using the podcast are using that to sell affiliate products? Are you using it for your own products? What's the purpose behind that podcast Speaker 3:       17:07         for now? Like when I first started the the purpose lists too for branding really to to have presence in that platform because I had never had a podcast and I. I've been seeing how so many people are getting into it and I thought, okay, it's time that I get there and so for me it was a matter of branding myself even more. I'm not really selling anything there yet as I don't have like enough of a big audience yet to be able to sell anything I've. Maybe I could, but I wanted like the first few episodes to be just about the value and the few calls to action that I have. There are, Hey, follow me on instagram or hey, if you enjoyed it, leave me a five star review. A little things like that for now. But eventually of course I would love to go down the road as you know, with John Lee Dumas has been able to achieve with this podcast. Speaker 3:       18:01         Right. People like that where, where he's making a very good income every month from it and he's very transparent about it. Um, but, but yeah, at first is for me to and also to connect my audience with the people that I've been able to meet because I feel super grateful that I've, that I've been able to meet Russell on first name basis and Gary Vee on a first name basis, John Lee Dumas as well, like, um, and so I feel very blessed about that and being able to, to connect with my audience with them and ask them questions that questions that sometimes might be different than what, than what most people ask. And I always asked my subscribers and my followers, hey, do you have a question for this person? And I, I always ask questions from other people with my own questions, but I have sometimes a couple. Um, but, but yeah, it was, it was for me it was, it was looking for another way to add value and eventually being able to monetize it. That will be awesome. But for now it's, my main focus is getting, getting more subscribers, adding more value in getting more listeners and, and see what happens. Well, one of the things people always want to know is what in the world did you do to get to the two Comma Club status? Speaker 3:       19:10         Well, I did. Um, I did a combination of things because when I apply, who was, I think the rules were, I think the rules changed after that we started validating a much, much worse. Yeah, I think you guys got a little more strict with them, but when I applied it was not just one funnel necessarily. I had like two or three funnels and they all together. They did a little over a million dollars. So it was my coaching funnel, uh, was my event funnel and then it was affiliate marketing. So putting all those things together was a little over a million. I remember I sent all the screenshots and everything. Um, and that's how I did it, but it took me a little while. I mean, I was, when I started using click funnels seriously at the beginning of 2015, I had an account in 2014 that I was playing around with. Um, but I, I remember when I, the first time I met Russell was on a cruise. We were both on, uh, on, on the marketers cruise. Yeah. It was really funny because, uh, I have no idea he was going to be there. And I remember I was, I was looking. Is that Russell brand's? Oh my God, it's Russell Brunson. I have to go say hello. Speaker 3:       20:23         And um, and then, uh, and then he invited me to promote dotcom secrets. Like he gave me a flyer, hey, I've wrote a book and this is not, you know, nobody knows about it yet, but you know, here's a flyer for it so you can sign up as affiliate. I was so excited. We even did a video, a little video on the cruise ship together to promote DOTCOM secrets. Yeah, that's how I also made it on that leaderboard. Congratulations. Yeah. So, um, that's how I started really using click funnels where I met Russell there and I loved it. I've been using it ever since. And like I said, mostly it's been thanks to my coaching programs, my affiliate marketing promotions and yeah, that's how I got into the club and, and really it's been because I've always implemented what I learn in my own thing before I teach it, that I've been able to get some, some really good coaching clients and I've been able to put together some, some small events because a lot of people skip that step. They learned something and they want to teach it right away. I'm like, wait, you got to try it first, see if it works. And then you can teach. So yeah. Speaker 2:       21:33         Local in Chile or are they international? Where do you do most of your events? Speaker 3:       21:37         I've never done an event in chiller though. Surprisingly I've done, I've done a couple events in the US and one in London, in Europe, but I've, like you were saying earlier, there's so much potential in this market and I spent a lot of years doing content only in English because I thought there's no money in South America, nobody's going to buy this. And then at the beginning of last year I decided to branch out again. All right, let's do some stuff in Spanish. And whoa. I was blown away. Like there is so much demand and honestly not enough good offers. Speaker 2:       22:18         I think that's really critical. So tell me, as we kind of get close to wrapping things up here, I wanted to find out on your coaching program, what is it that you're actually coaching people? Speaker 3:       22:27         Well, I, I coach people on, on several things, but mainly I'm building funnels. I help people build their funnel. Like I like doing things with people as opposed to for them. Like I really want people to learn how to build their funnels. So I teach them that. I teach them how to run facebook ads. I teach them how to be good on video. So, you know, sometimes I have people who fly in all the way to Chile to work with me and I get my video team and we do branding videos for them, stuff like that. Um, I also work with people on, for example, our email marketing, their copywriting sales letters, uh, and, and when people are a little bit more, um, you know, at a stage where they still don't even know what they want to sell. Then I helped him with, you know, discovering what is it that they want to sell. Speaker 3:       23:15         Do you want to do affiliate marketing or do you want to do your own thing? Like let's, let's see what your personal brand would look like. What is your message, right? So starting a little bit from the, from the basics, what's your mindset, the right mindset that you need in order to do this? Um, and then with people who are more advanced and we go straight to, okay, let's build a new funnel and you have this offer, let's build a new offer, the Ebook, the, okay, what's your event funnel going to look like, your webinar. I help people build a Webinar. Slides learned much from Russell in that regard. So those are some of the things that I hope people do. Speaker 2:       23:50         So tell me, how do you get people into your coaching funnel then? Speaker 3:       23:55         It's built on click funnels. I have, I have a website called work with Carolina that common and when people go there they can see some testimonials and stuff and learn a little more, a little more about it. And then I have my application form there and everything. That's how they get in. I don't usually advertise it because, you know, I let people come in through different ways and then they either click on it because they find that on my main website or they find that at the footer of my emails because I don't like, I like being selective as well with the people that I work with. So really if they did the effort to find my coaching funnel, they really want, they really want to work with me then. But yeah, it's um, it's, it's something where if you want to advertise your coaching, I think it's much better to start with something of a lower ticket. Like start with an, with an online course like that. Those are the things where I do my ads and then when people come in from my marketing courses or affiliate marketing things or they enjoy my membership, then those people are highly qualified to do one on one coaching because that's something where you know, it's bigger investment, so you want to work with people who are serious and who you know already want to follow you and learn from you. So Speaker 2:       25:16         I love it. I think one of the things that you have mentioned there, which I know you've done an extremely great job of is you typically have in a lot of you email followup sequences and bother your pages. There's always other products or services they can buy through you. I think it's a great way of just having that always out there to for who knows how many times they're going to click on it, but all of a sudden it's like, you know what I do. I want to work with Carolina and boom, there's the click. So the fact that you have that in all your email sequences is a really cool thing. So congratulations on utilizing that tactic. Speaker 3:       25:45         Yeah, yeah. I always have on all of my emails, there's always a ps, whatever it is, there's always my sign out, my signature. Then there's my work with catalina that come with the bottom up without any call to action, but there is a ps, the ps, I always have a call to action. It could be, Hey, follow me on instagram, subscribe to my youtube channel. I opened up two new spots in my one on one mentoring program. Apply here. I always have something, but because I try to make sure that in the actual email, even if I'm promoting something else, uh, that I add some value that I tell a story, that I share something so that then people are happy to get to the PS and click on whatever it is that I, that I have there. And I think that's a really good strategy. And I got that mostly from Frank Kern. He always has a ps. Speaker 2:       26:37         Well, if people want to reach out to you and get ahold of you, what's the best way to do that? Speaker 3:       26:41         Uh, probably the best is I'm on social media really on twitter or instagram. It's at Catalina, Megan. Megan is m I l l a n just like, you know the dog whisperer. Spelled the same. It's the same last name. You know, people have people in the US, they always call me Carolina Milan. But uh, the, the, the double l is, it sounds like that. So instagram and, and also from my website, 39 midland.net or work with, um, I always, I was trying to respond to people and just, you know, I love talking to people, engaging with people who have seen me somewhere. It's always, it's always a great. Well, thanks so much. It was great having you on the show. I wish you all the best. And again, I look forward to one of these days actually brightened up in your neck of the woods down in Chile. That will be amazing. Please let me know in advance because I'd love to and we can show you guys around. Love it. Thanks so much. Thank you for having me. Speaker 4:       27:44         Hey everybody, thank you so much for taking the time to listen to the podcast. If you don't mind, could you please share this with others? Rate and review this podcast on Itunes, it means the world to me. We're trying to get to as a million downloads here in the next few months and just crush through over 650,000 and I just want to get the next few $100,000 so we can get to a million downloads and see really what I can do to help improve and and get this out to more people at the same time. If there's a topic, there's something you'd like me to share or someone you'd like me to interview, by all means, just reach out to me on facebook. You can pm me and I'm more than happy to take any of your feedback as well as the people you'd like me to interview more than happy to reach out and have that conversation with you. So again, go to Itunes, rate and review this, share this podcast with others and let me know how else I can improve this or what I can do to make this better for you guys. Thanks.

Why Dave Decided to talk to Chandler Woodward: Chandler Woodward has joined the podcast to discuss his personal journey into the entrepreneurial world.  Chandler speaks about the major decision he made to dropout of college to start his own online business agency. He discusses some of the hardships he has encountered along the way; both emotionally and financially. Chandler now runs Legendary Marketers Project which is geared to help those aspiring entrepreneurs and businesses formulate new strategies for brand promotion by helping businesses unearth their best content. He is also the host of- The College Entrepreneur Podcast, which he started while in college. Tips and Tricks for You and Your Business: Overcoming Emotional Hurdles (7:57) Having and Losing Clients (18:05) Project Development: Legendary Marketers (22:22) Quotable Moments: "Try, get out there and publish and keep moving. You will find out you have moved a lot further than you thought you were." "If I can make more than my professors, than I have the right to dropout of college." "It’s ok to have a job while you are trying to get your entrepreneur stuff going." "The reason why people aren’t successful enough is because they don’t try enough, they don’t fail enough." Other Tidbits: Chandler discusses with his Father, Dave, about his  journey from dropping out of college to running his first business agency. He elaborates on the importance of pursuing your passion and gaining experience in your field of choice. Chandler also introduces his latest project, Legendary Marketers;  and his vision moving forward. Links: FunnelHackerRadio.com FunnelHackerRadio.com/freetrial FunnelHackerRadio.com/dreamcar ---Transcript--- Speaker 1:     00:00         Welcome to funnel hacker radio podcast, where we go behind the scenes and uncover the tactics and strategies top entrepreneurs are using to make more sales, dominate their markets, and how you can get those same results. Here's your host, Dave Woodward. Everybody welcome back Speaker 2:     00:18         funnel, lack of radio. This is going to be one of those weird, very weird, a kind of surreal podcasts. Weird for me because I actually have the opportunity of introducing you to someone who I've known his entire life who has been a huge blessing in my life and actually was one of the very first people who started helping me on this whole funnel hacker radio podcast. So without any additional introduction, let me introduce you to my son, Chandler Woodward. Jen, welcome to the show. Hey, what's up? Thank you so much. Debt. This is weird. It's so funny. I'm actually. This is a zoom call we're doing. I'm watching him at his house and I'm in. My office were usually. He would have been sitting behind over my left shoulder here when he first started. He got home from his mission about two years ago serving mission for our church and I put them to work right away and one of the great things was he just took to this whole marketing thing and so I've got so much I could say about him, but what is it that I want to make sure that we kind of take this in a direction that is beneficial for all of you guys who are listening and that is I want to let you know what's going to happen here in the next few weeks and why I wanted to bring chandler on to share some of the crazy emotions that he went through that you're going to be able to see when we launched the funnel hacking live a, our funnel hacking live tickets will go on sale and about two, two, three weeks in time that you're hearing this. Speaker 2:     01:38         And with that, what you're going to see is a video and the guys who create this video for us, data is the most amazing videographer in the world. He has this ability to capture emotion, just raw, raw, pure emotion, and so he sent this video to us about a week and a half ago and I saw it and I, I started to get all emotional. I started on, well in my eyes were like all of a sudden sweating out of my tear ducts. I'm like, what's going on? And what's happening is I'm sitting there watching my son Chandler. It's admitted to 17 and 18 of the video where he was at funnel hacking live last year and Dan caught him at a point where you could see all this emotion and the part that's so exciting for me. One, it's my son and as a dad it's super cool, but the other thing is it he had. Speaker 2:     02:28         It was just the epitome of everybody who's going through this journey, this craziness that's happening. So I've talked too long. What I'd like to do is turn the time over you, Chandler have, how do you kind of tell people a little bit about your story, where you're at, and then I'll come in for additional questions that are awesome. Yeah, so basically as I got home from my mission and I got into this whole marketing game and got into this whole entire digital online space and started going after and I was in college and basically his whole life marketing kind of this whole Speaker 3:     03:00         marketing journeys kind of destroyed my life, but it also is helped my life click funnels. I guess. Long story short, I came home and I was going to college and was doing all this. A lot of a lot of your videos, dads as a hearing these people's stories of like how possible was the make money online and all this kinds of crazy things and I was like, okay, what if I try this out for myself? And I was trying little things, little things and I remember it was in Vegas last year and last year and we were sitting there with a with Alex or Moz out sharp and all these guys and their brand Uli and all these people and I was looking around. They're super successful. I'm wondering, I'm just asking this question like what should I be doing to be able to progress the most in this all my business? Speaker 3:     03:49         They're like, what? What are you doing now? I'm like, I'm going to college and kind of like tiptoeing this stuff and brandon rights and next year it's like, dude, why are you in college? And I was like, that's what I'm supposed to do. Right? And he's like, no, get out of there as soon as you can. And then I went to, I brought my now wife to a viral video and last September and she met who loves and also hates at the same time because he's the one that pushed me off the edge to actually go and drop out of college. He gave me the whole entire kinda structured everything to go about it and just gave me this vision of like really what an entrepreneur is and how they, how they can act, how they can be emotions of just like going to college, like working really hard, but no one actually really realize what I was doing at home. Speaker 3:     04:36         That was a lot of my friends would go out and go to parties and dances, all this kind of stuff on Fridays and Saturdays that'd be kind of stuck in a house kind of stuff and did some side things. Um, and so yeah, I ended up a business online business and agency and started doing that for a lot of local services and I'm actually, the funny thing about it was to be able to drop out of college. I came to you data and you said, Kate, you're not dropping out of college. And I was like, why not? You said you don't have a thing yet, you need to, you need something to drop out. And so he said take as much. So I loaded up my whole schedule up. I was like, I'm either going to graduate super fast or I'm a drop out this semester. And so I loaded up like huge long credits of classes and was going on. And as I started my agency as well, and the goal of this whole thing was if I could make my professors, then I have the right to drop out of college. And it was going down and I was like, Hey, what's the average, the average number? I was like, Hey, that's what I'm shooting for it. And at the end of the year I was like, I did it. Awesome. Sweet. And then dropped out of college. And this is the first year I've been and it's been awesome. Speaker 3:     05:48         Obviously I know your story extremely well. Most people, they understand the emotions that behind that obviously there's a my wife, your mom and the other side Speaker 2:     05:58         of in the world have you done to our son. And I think the part I want to make sure you had, I want you to convey to people right now is you're 22 just got married. You're trying to decide what the heck you're going to do. You and I spoke at a Byu where you were going to school in Provo, Utah at the entrepreneurial class. You're taking drop out. I actually drove a nick greer who is the CEO of skipio and also as the was your professor. He and I drove together to the class and I remember sitting there as he and I were driving to to teach. He's like, are you really going to allow your son to drop out of school? I said, you know, nick, it's not up to me. I mean, it's, it's his choice. He goes, I've never seen a parent though. Speaker 2:     06:42         Supportive of it. Why are you? Why are you doing that? I said, you don't for me, Nick. All I care about is I want to make sure that my kids have the skillsets that project that they can use throughout the rest of their life to always make money and provide for their families. I had, I was in a situation where I grew up with my dad was an attorney. My mom was a nurse. School was an absolute necessity. I have a master's degree in exercise physiology, which I've done absolutely nothing with. I have posted a postgraduate work and physical therapy, which I did nothing with and so I had the conversation with Nixon, you know what, Nick for me, if I can, if my, if he doesn't know what he wants and he hasn't figured that out. I don't want them to stay in school to figure that out and network and grow, but at the same time, if he knows what he wants and this isn't going to help them get there, then I'm okay with it. Speaker 2:     07:29         He goes, well, are you sure about that? And I'm like, Nick, I'm totally sure about this thing. And he's like, well then would it be okay if I, if he actually does that, maybe I can offer him a job what? And this was before you would even consider dropping out or anything else, and later on, obviously that kind of came true. But the part I want people to understand right now is what does a 20 something guy, one of the emotion, now you're married, you've got a wife to support and what are the emotions that you're really going through right now as an entrepreneur because you went to funnel hacking live. And unbeknownst to me when we ended up pitching the two Comma Club x coaching program, which is $18,000, you signed up and I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm sitting there with my, with my wife, your mom Carrie. Speaker 2:     08:22         And she's like, you better make sure this program works. What do you mean? He goes, you've now got my, our son in this. She said, my son obviously like you don't share you gotta. Make sure this works because he's, he's married. He says he can't afford this kind of stuff. And so when I saw that video, which you guys are going to see at funnel hacking live, as soon as we release the tickets, you'll see the emotion. And I wish so bad, I could show it to you right now, but you basically are sitting there, you're on the, on the front row with me. Uh, I'm not in the picture. And Dan had this ability to capture this emotion of such just raw excitement, confusion, frustration, I mean just this bundle. So I want, I want you to convey, take us back to that point and help people understand what's the emotions that you were dealing with at that point. Speaker 3:     09:13         So yeah, it was. Oh Man, for sure. Because it was definitely a ton of ton of emotions, but I remember going to funnel hacking live and thinking, okay, we don't have a lot of money or barely able to get to and thinking, okay, I know they're going to pitch something at the end. Don't want to take this. Like, this is not going to happen. I'm not going to fall into this trap again. I'm not going to fall into this. I'm going to go out there. I'm to motivated, I'm working when I get home. And when the pitch came, I remember we were sitting there in the table and I'm just speak super quiet. Pitch just happened. I heard about. I heard all these crazy things and I was just sitting there at this table, we're all, there's Julia was there, you were there, always was there in that little room. Speaker 3:     10:04         And I remember sitting there, I was like, everything just went quiet. And I just think to myself, I was like, Hey, like I know I want to grow. I know I want to take the next step. I don't want to get out of where I am right now and start moving forward. I was like, okay, is this really the only way is this like, I know it may not be the only way, but will this be this? Will this make me get there quicker to get there faster, get there in a quicker time. And I remember thinking there was okay as a friend, see, I think we need to do this. I think I need to get it. I think I need to get this to compliment program. Like we don't have, we don't have money. I was like, I know we definitely have the money for it, and she's like, do you really want to do it? Speaker 3:     10:44         And I was like, more than anything, I felt this. I had this feeling in my heart, I know this is it and know this is the reason why I was here. And as soon as I got there I went and a friend and my mom were walking out and I ran. I ran over there, the table got my credit card out because we have enough money. So I got my credit card out on the table to miles. I was like, all right, miles and I filled it out and I remember running back to my wife and I was so scared. I was so frustrated. I was so it's kind of like jumping out of plane with no parachute and hoping that I can find some things that build it on the way down and I just seen my wife's eyes with just support and just fear in her eyes as well and just thinking like, this is it, this is a whole thing behind it. Speaker 3:     11:37         The two comprehensive plots out Colombo is like you have a goal like you're taking the life or you're taking or your diet pretty much, hey, here are these two things. We're going to get one of these right now. I just remember being in that moment and then sending or the rest of the event and just thinking, oh my gosh, like this is it. This is where my life is going to be changed, and just the frustration, the fear and everything going through my bike at the same time and me and every time I watch that video again and those memories come back to my mind, they're thinking, I just feel that again. I was like, oh, this is what it's all about. This is what entrepreneurship is the most amazing thing. It gives us some blessings, but the same time, it's the most frustrating and fearful. Just so many emotions go into it that aren't really, that are really. You don't see the surface but are so deep down below and that kept us going through my mind. So Speaker 2:     12:30         thank you so much for sharing that. It's here and you, as I'm watching you even relate the story for a little backstory, for those people who are listening to this, they need to understand a little bit about Fran and your wife and her experience as far as. So Fran is from Chile and France is a, you know what, I'm going to let you tell France story, but the things I want to make sure you touch on here is how she viewed an entrepreneur and what an entrepreneur meant to her coming from her Chilean roots. Yeah, for sure. Speaker 3:     13:04         So yeah, my wife has been here for about a couple of years in the states. Yeah. And basically anyone outside of the states has a, especially in Chile when you come to the states, it's all about gaining education, getting a job. That's the only way. She didn't come from a very wealthy family. She had a very, very humble life. And um, and everyone who knows that entrepreneur pretty much knows him as more of like they had nothing else to do. And so they're just trying to find a way to make things up. And it was just based off of that and once you went out as an entrepreneur, feared came to her heart because she's like, oh my gosh, can I marry this guy and he's not going to have a lot of money because entrepreneurs don't really have a lot of things outside of the streets and they're kind of washing windows and all this kind of stuff. Speaker 3:     13:57         She's like, man, I just don't know if that's gonna happen. That's gonna. Like if you go into entrepreneurship or are you really gonna be able to be successful? And after going through all these things, she was able to essentially I live and all these things and hang around with people who saw this light of like entrepreneurship changes life. They changed the world. They're the only people that can actually go in and go in and change the world and change people's lives and stuff and create this movement and stuff. And so that's her. That's her background on entrepreneurship. She's in the background here. I can. Speaker 2:     14:30         I wish people could see the video that I'm going on a little more background. I want to kind of fill in some of the blanks here and this is a. I think right now the era that we're in, entrepreneurship is kind of like the rock stars. If you say you're an entrepreneur these days, people think, oh my gosh, dude, you're going to crush it. I mean, I think Gary v is kind of what we really got to give him the most credit for making entrepreneurship, this crazy thing that's out there. But I can tell you when I, when I started basically as an entrepreneur 20 plus years ago, I was. People looked at me the same way that Fran looked at you and that is basically if you're an entrepreneur, it means you can't do anything else. It's made you basically just gave up on everything and you're just going to scrap and hopefully find some way of making money. Speaker 2:     15:14         And I know there were times as I was, as you were growing up and everything were times were tough for ours and it was. But You keep fighting and you keep going through that emotional thing. And so what Fran was experiencing is how I was at years ago and I remember that and I think these days people talk about entrepreneurship as this almost this glorious ideal type of thing. And the part that I want to make sure people understand is they're listening to you is what was captured by Dan and that video was the fear. And I think frequently people don't understand that's normal. That's okay. And I, I've gone through it so many times in my own life and I've, I've had this conversation with many entrepreneurs as far as you have to cycle. And I wouldn't. I've hadn't. Tons, not tons. I've probably had over the course last 25 years, probably eight different business partners at different times. Speaker 2:     16:13         And one of the things I've realized is I would never go into business these days with a partner who hadn't cycled. It's a, I want to make sure that that person went. And what I mean by cycle here is they've, they've had a business where they had a lot of success. They made a lot of money and then they lost it or came across hard times. Because it's during those hard times that really change a person's life and it was, again, it was one of those situations to where you and I literally had this conversation just a couple of days ago and that is, um, more backstory here. Uh, so chairman Fran got married July 13 after January 20th. July 13th is coming up on their six month. Basically this Friday is our six month anniversary. Since then I have had them come out to force them basically to come to boise quite a few different times for different family things. Speaker 2:     17:08         And as you mentioned, as far as going to funnel hacking live with something you wanted to do, but there was frustration and I understand it as a father, but I even understand it more as a husband where you're like, listen, I want to provide for my wife. I have an obligation, I have a duty of responsibility. I want to do this myself. And you did a facebook live recently as you were kind of recounting your time going to funnel hacking live and the frustration of. Yeah, you ended up, uh, we had an extra room in our, in our suite there, so you and Fran and all made logical sense just to stay there. But at the same time it was one of those things too where identity, I don't want to stay with you guys. I want to be able to do this. And I know right now you're heading, you and fran and your brother Parker had not to see Tony Robbins a for the next three days. Speaker 2:     17:58         And so I know that, uh, right now money's tight. And so what I want to do is I want you to tell people what it's really like, what is, what is life? Because again, if you go back to where you were in December, you thought you had all these clients and what I want you to explain to people is how has it been as far as an agency owner, having clients, losing clients? Kevin, people make promises that haven't been fulfilled. Having partners. You've got a lot of experiences but in six months in partners who say they're going to do stuff and they fall through. So I want you to kind of be extremely raw and vulnerable and tell people what, what's it really been like? Speaker 3:     18:38         No. Yeah, totally. It's been a, it's been more of a downhill helicopter that has been more up for sure. Um, I mean being, so yeah, had the agency at the beginning of the end of last year built a six figure business. I was making about $5 a month more than professors and then literally all of a sudden every single client, like it was like, it was almost like a whole two weeks. I mean, it was insane to see how they would hire someone else underneath them and they were just kind of, I was doing everything inside of their accounts and stuff and so there's kind of see what's going on. And I was like, what the heck, I, how did this happen? I even see it coming. And also then getting married in about month, having zero money, having zero anything and thinking, okay, we have a payment coming in a month, how am I gonna ever gonna make this? Speaker 3:     19:41         And so I remember I was sitting there and I was getting, I was actually in a career and I was just like, I was like, as a husband, like how am I going to provide for my wife? I was like, are we going to go home? What's going to happen? We have to live with my parents. Like, is this really going to have to thinking of myself like a camera, be married in a month. Once my wife asked me if I'm living with my parents or my grandma living with these people, I was like, I have to give her a bed to sleep in the thinking that I was like, man, okay, this is crazy. This is crazy. And so I went and I got a job for nick beer was all his marketing and stuff, uh, at this little software called skipio and have been doing that for the past six months now. Speaker 3:     20:24         And every single time I go in, I'm gonna say, okay, I know I got this too comical x program. I was like, I know now I can grow, I can go. And so now I've been going in, I've been doing this agency stuff, I've been going up and creating funnels for other people and doing all this other stuff, but now having the coaching and having the processes actually now have a process and assistant like entrepreneurs, never full security, but it gives me enough security that I can. I know that this will work out, it gives me a pathway, it gives you all these things I can go. And so now I've been going, now I'm just like every single thing I can think of. I'm just trying, I'm trying, I'm trying. It seems like it was kind of casting into the nets I'm seeing where they land and see if any fish coming out and that's kind of where I'm at. And it's kind of like the fear basis. I'm just throwing a bunch of things to help stick. That's where it's at. Speaker 2:     21:14         I love it. I think I get, I appreciate your vulnerability. I appreciate you being so open and I'm. One of the main reasons I wanted to do this podcast with you is I have a lot of people on the podcast and I had someone reach out yesterday and say, all you ever had on the podcast is people who are always super successful, they've already hit the two comma club. What about those of us who are struggling trying to make it work? And it's like, you know what? I know the right guy to bring on one. Just do that right now. And so I appreciate your honesty. I appreciate your vulnerability and I think the key that's important here is for people to understand that it's okay to have a job while you're trying to get your entrepreneur stuff going. It's okay to have a safety net there as you're still trying to. Speaker 2:     21:53         You know, so often people say, oh, I'm just going to burn my boats and bridges and everything else and I'm just going to. I'm like, yeah, but you know what? It's okay to to have some income coming in. You don't. What it does is it basically helps you. It helps you not make stupid decisions. It doesn't have to be, but again, it means that you're working late. It's amazing. As soon as you finish your eight hour shift or whatever it is at Skipio, it means you come home and you're up for another eight hours or whatever it might be. Burning the candle at both ends trying to make things work. Uh, so what's the next project you're working on right now? Speaker 3:     22:25         So we've got to do it some other silos for sure. And one of the ones I'm actually really excited right now is a legendary marketers that's actually really exciting and I'm really excited about getting out and going and that was actually with me and you. So I'm basically for anyone who doesn't know about this one is like, this is actually kind of an introduction to me getting about what entrepreneurship was. So about 10 years ago, my dad flew around the country, all these crazy successful people and learning their secrets, learn the tactics and learning all these crazy cool strategies. And I remember as a, as a son sitting there 10 years ago thinking, okay, what's happening? Where's my dad? Whereas like, what's going on? And all this kind of stuff, I didn't know crazy too much, but I knew there was something going on and I remember with my friends asking what is, what is your dad actually do you know? Speaker 3:     23:14         It's like, what do you do? You have a job, do I'm an entrepreneur? And like you said before, that wasn't a huge it that was just like, it was like I go back to my friends and he's an entrepreneur and they're like, what's that like? I have no idea. That was basically the whole thing. And so yeah, we've done this. Now we've, we're launching legendary marketers and it's this crazy cool project. I'm actually cool. I'm actually super excited because I had asked you to take it on. I'm going to go now I'm going to go out and stuff. And so that's one of my projects I'm working on right now. Speaker 2:     23:47         I love it. So hopefully it's going to become, are your two Comma Club program here? We're going to comic con status. So a legendary marketers.com is a product that I created again is channeled, made mentioned 10 years ago this year. And I'll do a podcast later in more detail about how I met Russell. It was through all that kind of stuff. But I think the part I'm most excited about right now, chandler, you talked about this literally for the last two to three years as far as you've taken this on and doing something like this. And I was out with Russell, uh, we were filming at Tai Lopez's house and one of the things that we were talking ty about was if you had to start all over again and he was basically asking Russell, you know, what would you do as far as would you do affiliate marketing or something like that. Speaker 2:     24:31         He says, you know what, I feel like mark is kind of one of the things we're wrestling. Made a lot of money and get started with a lot of things. He says, I probably would, but I would do it different this year, this time. And he says, what I would do, and I'm not going to take away your thunder, but basically you're doing exactly what Russell told you to do. So what's legendary marketers? How's it gonna work? Give people an idea as far as what's going to take place because unlike when I was flying out, spending tens of thousands of dollars finding for people's houses, being stupid, you're being much smarter about it, so what are you going to do? Speaker 3:     25:02         So yeah, it's funny isn't it? Says it's awesome. It's like a 10 years ago. It's crazy now that all the technology and all these crazy things that we have now, so I'm actually gonna go out. I'm going to find. So anyone who gets it's gonna be able to say, Hey, who do you want? Who Do you want to go out and find out their best content stuff and with that, with that person, I'm actually going to go out and I'm gonna go find their like their top youtube videos or top strategies and stuff and all these kinds of things that kind of a build up upon this person and see exactly their best content and stuff and find out exactly what's going to help them best with this thing and I'm gonna go get, get that. And so say it's like Tony Robbins. I'm gonna. Find the best Tony Robbins videos and we will give it to their people and say, hey guys, here's this awesome Tony Robbins video series. You're going to go grab it and stuff and have all their stuff. Speaker 2:     25:52         So for those of you guys who are listening, a couple of things I want you to do here, first of all, understand how raw and emotional being an entrepreneur really is. I brought chandler on to help them basically encapsulate and share with you his true emotions and the because he's in the fight right now and I think people don't understand how hard that is. And so again, I thank you and appreciate all that you're doing. I am so proud of you. I couldn't be more proud as a, as a dad. I'm just so excited. Um, and the second thing I want to make sure you guys understand who are listening here is take a look@legendarymarketers.com. A channel's going to be releasing that. In fact, it will be live by the time this goes live. It will be released here in the middle of July. And basically in commemoration for our 10 year anniversary of doing this, my first product, I will explain this, uh, a, another podcast later, but the part I want to make sure you guys were listening, the reason I want you to go into two reasons, I want you to basically funnel hack what Chandler is doing. Speaker 2:     26:51         First of all, yeah. I would love for you guys to buy the product, legendary marketing some money in his pocket. That's always a fun thing for me. But more important than that is I want you to watch and pay attention to the affiliate strategies that are done. The Chandler's going to use a. because I have a lot of people these days say, Gosh, I don't have any money. I don't know how to get started. So what I want you to do is I want you to follow Chandler on his journey because he's got a podcast and you still need to be doing your podcast. Speaker 3:     27:18         Yeah, I'm actually, I've just filmed three extra ones now and it's going to go live this week. So. So what's your podcast? So it's the college entrepreneur podcasts. I'm to change that name because I'm not Speaker 2:     27:33         called entrepreneur or dropout bog soon to be dropped out. But anyways, uh, no real. What I want to make sure you and I want you to follow Chandler on this journey is there's a lot of people who I get asked about this all the time as far as, well, how do you really get started in affiliate marketing? And we've got affiliate bootcamp and it, which is an amazing resource, but people say, I want to see someone do it from scratch who doesn't have anything? You guys have clickfunnels. You've already got people who are 60 some odd people, one dream cars, and I just want to follow someone from scratch. So that's the main reason I want chandler on this. Two reasons. One is that once you understand his entrepreneurial journey, because it applies to a lot of you guys were listening. Second of all is I really want to make sure that you can follow someone and who's going to be implementing the stuff that we've taught and and used, but even some of the new strategies that we're doing right now from an affiliate standpoint. Speaker 2:     28:24         So take a look@legendarymarketers.com. Go funnel hack it, pay attention to it, sign up for put money in your pocket, whatever it might be. Most importantly, funnel hack this thing because I think it's going to be neat to see someone from basically start from the time he started here. Uh, I think we're going to race. I'll have to kick at my affiliate stats as well and see between you and miles and I who can actually get the dream car the fastest. It's going to be doing affiliate stuff for a lot of people as well. So with that, as we get close to wrapping things up, I know you've got to catch a flight to head out to Chicago to go to upw. Any parting words for those people who are listening? Speaker 3:     29:04         No. Yeah, just, I can't imagine I cannot express enough about how much I'm. One of the things I learned in the video actually is in Golden. He talks about how a, Speaker 3:     29:13         um, the reason why people aren't successful, not because they don't try enough, they don't fail enough. They don't go through those experiences. I think that's a big thing that has happened to me so far as I've looked back and if I look at her right now, like maybe I'm not like the best marketer, I'm not the smartest person, but to come to see where I've came from and to see exactly where I started from. Like now I'm doing these facebook lives and stuff and do all this crazy stuff and to see exactly I'm, I'm, I'm not the best. I'm actually impressed on how I grown and so it's been awesome. Say just trying to get out there and publish and publish and do stuff and just keep moving and you'll find out that you've moved a lot further than you actually thought you were. I love it. Speaker 3:     29:48         So if people want to reach out to, where did they, how can they contact you? Um, yeah, Chandler, Aweber.com. There's a cool strategy call that's like the best place to find a way to kind of get ahold of me. Um, as well as if you want to follow the exact journey. I'm just follow me on facebook. I'm doing a facebook live every day and exactly what you're going through, so I love it. Well, Janet, I love you. I'm so proud of you. I hope you and Fran have an amazing time. Please give your wife a hug and a kiss for me and thank you so much for jumping on and being so vulnerable. Oh, thanks. Speaker 2:     30:19         Hey everybody. One of the things you heard me talking about Chandler here is this whole idea that the video that he is he is in is actually@funnelhackingliveandIwantyoutogotofunnelhackinglive.com. So checkout funnel hacking live.com. Sign up, get their take action like Chandler did, and make sure that you're at next year's funnel hacking live. It's going to be in Nashville and you can check it out@funnelhackinglive.com.