Podcasts about Right There

Sabrina Spellman’s reign of terror has finally ceased. Chilling Adventures of Sabrina concluded with its wildly uneven fourth season, and while there are things I’ll miss about the campy occult drama (the fashion being the first, Miranda Otto’s diction being second) there is absolutely no part of me that will long for Sabrina Spellman, or her time paradox double Sabrina Morningstar. From the series premiere through the series finale, Sabrina consistently proved herself to be an egocentric, entitled white savior who never learned to take accountability for her staggeringly long list of missteps. And while there have been plenty of shows where the lead character was also the most frustrating, CAOS’s biggest error was in positioning Sabrina’s privilege as what also made her a hero. In CAOS, the patriarchy was literally the devil, but the series never displayed any real interest in engaging with feminism through an intersectional lens. (Just look at the ways in which the show failed Prudence Night for proof.) So it’s not surprising that the “woke witch” at the center of the series wasn’t the inspirational advocate Sabrina fancied herself to be, but rather a champion for white feminism specifically. Though Sabrina boasted of her identity as a social justice activist and an ally to the disenfranchised, she — a straight, cisgender white woman born to high social status and power — consistently centered herself in every cause, regardless of whether the issue at hand involved her or was one she was even somewhat educated on. (See: Sabrina running for top boy on her first day at the Academy despite knowing almost nothing about the witch world, Sabrina becoming queen of hell despite the scant amount of time she spent in the infernal realm, Sabrina running for co-president of Baxter High despite rarely attending the mortal school.) Sabrina’s repeated quests for positions of power she wasn’t qualified to hold were symptomatic of the show’s inability to reckon with its heroine’s privilege in any meaningful way. Whether trying to cheat death by resurrecting Tommy Kinkle or trying to cheat the universe by allowing her doppelgänger to rule as queen of hell, Sabrina always flouted the rules others were bound by — not out of a selfless desire to do the right thing, but simply to prove that she could. And when she knew her friends and family wouldn’t support her, she’d go to great lengths to hide the truth from them, as much out of fear of facing their judgment as out of a disinterest in facing the impact her actions have on others. (There is a bleak irony in how Sabrina, who would go to the ends of the earth — or hell, for that matter — to protect her own agency, rarely gave her friends and family the opportunity to consent when she was faced with a decision that would have a massive impact on their lives.) The road to hell is paved with good intentions, and had CAOS been a study in how someone with well-meaning motives could do so much harm — and how they could ultimately learn from their mistakes and grow — it could have been a fascinating, resonant series. That’s why I was able to somewhat look past Sabrina’s narcissistic individualism early in the series, patiently waiting for her character to evolve. But when Brina opted to let Sabrina Morningstar live, despite knowing the threat this posed to the entire cosmos, it became undeniably clear the only person Sabrina was ever truly out for was herself. Despite my better judgment, I still maintained a sliver of hope that CAOS would provide the catharsis I so craved in seeing Sabrina face the cost of her entitlement once the truth of her double was exposed. In Part 4’s fifth episode — spoilers ahead — I thought the moment had come when Sabrina (finally!) admitted she needed to take responsibility for creating a potentially realm-destroying time paradox — but only after the consequences of her secret became impossible to hide from the aunties. Sadly yet not surprisingly, CAOS treated Sabrina merely saying she was ready to take accountability as growth enough. (Though I should have expected nothing less from a show that treated “but I had my fingers crossed” as a legitimate excuse for lying.) Following a deliciously enjoyable but far too short reprimand by Zelda covering how Sabrina’s self-serving lies were literally destroying the realms, the response to her cosmos-threatening secret quickly shifted to her friends and family searching for any loophole to protect Sabrina from paying a true penance — such as the two Sabrinas merging into one or choosing one Sabrina to die. Compare this to Zelda’s insistence in Season 1 that Tommy Kinkle’s resurrection be undone immediately to restore balance, and it’s clear that the typical rules simply did not apply to the teenaged half-witch. The moral conundrum of what to do with the twin Sabrinas could have been a catalyst for one or both of them to realize that “having it all” doesn’t mean refusing to compromise or always lying to, gaslighting, and manipulating people to get what you want. (Or that maybe a 16-year-old who has no interest in reaping souls shouldn’t be queen of hell when Lilith is RIGHT THERE.) But ultimately (spoiler alert) all it led to was a martyrdom tale, with Sabrina Spellman and Sabrina Morningstar each sacrificing themselves in the show’s final episode to save the universe. Though Sabrina’s loved ones wept over her loss, my eyes remained bone dry. The truth is, Sabrina’s deaths would have felt sadder if they didn’t seem so avoidable. Sabrina Morningstar never should have existed to begin with, if we’re being honest, and Sabrina Spellman likely could have survived had she bothered to consult anyone at any step of the process instead of running off half-cocked, sowing confusion and raising the risks. But while a lot of the problems in the final season were the results of mistakes Sabrina made, that doesn’t mean she should have died to pay for these errors. In fact, by killing both Sabrinas, the show let her off the hook completely, allowing her to die a hero rather than live and grapple with her mistakes. Through her death, all of Sabrina’s texture and flaws were flattened and forgotten until she became nothing more than a saint-like figure who martyred herself for the greater good. And this is not a gross exaggeration: After her death, the Academy literally erected a golden statue of Sabrina in a place typically reserved for the coven’s deities, positioning her self-serving exceptionalism as not only worthy of praise but perhaps even of worship. (And do not even get me started on how the show then revealed Nick Scratch had drowned off-screen so that he and Sabrina could be reunited in heaven in a blatant attempt to reward her with a happy ending on the back of a beloved character’s possible suicide.) Handled thoughtfully, Sabrina’s worst tendencies — her entitlement, her performative altruism, her know-it-all insolence — could have provided CAOS with a nuanced heroine whose self-discovery journey would resonate with many struggling to navigate their burgeoning independence. But instead, what we got was the alienating tale of a spoiled young woman who put the entire universe at risk because she refused to choose between being queen of hell and cheerleading, and whose selfish frivolity was celebrated until the very end. So while I will miss Zelda, Hilda, Ambrose, Prudence, Lilith and, of course, the fashion, I must say good riddance to Sabrina Spellman. May we never meet again.

Ahhhh.. The word abundance ...  It means different things to different people ... and People can block the energy of it in many ways ..  lol. It can light up your day ... or strike fear.. or sadness inside of your world...  Your mind holds two very STRONG emotional view points regarding abundance .. This is why it can be so difficult to shift to the emotional set point of gratitude when it comes to abundance ... Most humans attach "MONEY" to the equation .... and if their world has little money inside of it.. It will be very easy to give that emotion the attention ... because the evidence in the world is RIGHT THERE !!   How do we not.... so it seems we are now trapped!!   Because What we focus on expands... that's for sure ... and now we can't stop focusing on the fact that there is no abundance .. ( money ).... because we need it to pay bills and feel safe !!  So I'm in it !! Now what .. !!   The truth is I've struggled back and forth with abundance meaning only money for most of my life .. I've made a small fortune and lost it ... along the way... I learned the most valuable lesson for me .. Money is energy ... and it is ONE form of abundance ... There are many other forms that we can switch our attention to ... and by Energetic Law.....  The other areas must increase in our experience ... TODAY we talk about just how and why this is !!  See you inside .. MUCH LOVE TODAY !!!    Likeattractslike11.com ~I help humans Navigate their awakening and shift into the conscious leaders you came here to be.  ARE YOU LOOKING TO APPLY THIS IN YOUR LIFE ????  There are 3 ways to work with me : ).   Take This Super Quick Conscious Alignment Questionnaire and set up a Discovery Call To See which may be best for YOU : )  https://linktr.ee/likeattractslike Shift Your Life ~ "Yes This Will Work.... It Only Requires Your Permission"  Thank You for being a part of this with me !!  You can support the podcast through Patreon. : ). THANK YOU !! to all who do !! I am so grateful ! https://www.patreon.com/user?u=22969209

PREMIERE- Mad Gregor - Right There (Original Mix) [DHB RECORDS] Follow https://soundcloud.com/deep-house-belgium https://soundcloud.com/aztechmusiclabels Buy/Support https://www.beatport.com/release/2020-celebration-compilation/3192376 In the latest compilation album by DHB, several house heavyweights are brought together in what ensues to be a futuristic thrill ride through the world of house music and beyond. Opening up with a track from NICKO/////, "Keep Flowing" is a softly dark ordeal, whisking us through eerie electronic soundscapes. Nico P takes the stage next in his track "Eladoria", a bass-heavy banger with lush sound design bound to get the party going. Next up is Mad Gregor with his track "Right There", a lusciously layered house anthem with a steady pace that progressively builds up into synth-dripped hysteria. The fourth track "Constellation" by Divestorm is hugely atmospheric, bringing rich soundscapes to euphoria-dripped melodies. Geuzz comes sin next with "Indian Summer", a heavy-hitter that bends the genre of house into an entirely new style that's distinctly his. We finish on the song "The Cosmos" by Jason Heat and Groovegsus, a timeless track oozing with originality and epic pads that uplift up the mind, body, and soul. Those 6 exclusive tracks are followed by an all-time DHB best-of including tracks from Nico Morano, FATÏA, Cemode, Soljee and Visser and Manezz, Kynan Cosma (from Senses of Mind), Ramioul, Jickow, Kosinski and Tribu.

Dan and Ashley are joined by Drag Queen Miss Ruby Violet and Ali James of Showstopper Olivier award winning fame for a packed two hours of musical chat and more Importantly songs from the musicals.    There! Right There! from Legally Blonde The Musical Stranger in This World from Taboo Alexander Hamilton from Hamilton Out Tonight from Rent Anything Goes from Anything Goes Send in the Clowns from A Little Night Music Magic to Do from Pippin Mama Will Provide from Once On This Island Waving Through A Window from Dear Evan Hansen Find Your Grail from Spamalot I Have Confidence from The Sound of Music What Is This Feeling? from Wicked When I Grow up from Matilda Welcome To The 60’s from Hairspray   From Now On from The Greatest Showman Don’t Rain On My Parade from Funny Girl

Happy Election Day, rebel. I hope wherever you are, that you have already cast your ballot. And if you're listening to the sound of my voice on Election Day and you're standing in line somewhere, I just want to say, keep standing! Your vote matters, and this election is so important. And I'll be honest -- as a business owner, I've been really dreading Election Day because it's hard to market your business right now. Right? There's going to be a lot of noise out there. I keep telling my clients, “You gotta be flexible in November because we don't know what's going to happen.” So instead of doing my regular-type podcast where I share some insights and some reflection with you, I thought today I could share with you one of my biggest passions, which is reading. I freaking love books. I taught myself to read around the age of four and my nose has been in a book ever since then. And I read a lot of books that could benefit you and your business. So today I'm going to share some of the top books that I've read this past year that can help you grow your business or clarify your message along with a few fun surprises. So sit back, enjoy this episode, and maybe you'll discover your next read. Tune into the full episode to hear more: https://drmichellemazur.com/2020/11/best-books-of-2020-for-growing-your-business-clarifying-your-message.html

www.janepollak.comTRANSCRIPTDiane Dayton  0:02  This is Changing the Rules, a podcast about designing the life you want to live, hosted by KC Dempster and Ray Loewe, the luckiest guy in the world.KC Dempster  0:11  Good morning, everybody. Welcome to Changing the Rules. I'm KC Dempster. And I'm here with Ray Loewe. And we have a great, great podcast ahead for you. Changing the Rules is about just what our announcer said in the beginning, it's about designing your own life, and then living it to the fullest. And oftentimes, the luckiest people in the world recognize that, in order to design their own life the way they want it, they do have to change rules. And so we like to bring you, our listeners, interesting guests who have changed the rules, and they are now living their best lives, and they're living it to the fullest. So keep coming back. Because it's really, really interesting.Ray Loewe  0:59  Yeah, you know, every week we try and interview one of the luckiest people in the world. And we do that for several reasons. First of all, I get a tremendous amount of satisfaction out of just talking to lively, interesting people and and I'm so motivated, by the time the show's over. And these are the kind of people that I like to hang out with. But I also find that other people who are the luckiest people in the world, you know, life changes all the time. And we need new motivation all the time, and to be able to listen to people like Jane, who we're gonna bring on in a couple minutes. And listen to the way she has restructured her life and the things that she's doing. It's just exciting, and it gives us new ideas, and I want more of that, too. Okay.So so we're gonna take a quick break, and then we're gonna bring back Jane Pollak, one of the luckiest people in the world, and you will understand why by the time we're done so Taylor,Diane Dayton  1:56  You're listening to Changing the Rules with KC Dempster. And Ray Loewe, the luckiest guy in the world. We will be right back with more exciting information.KC Dempster  2:06  Welcome back, everybody. And we're gonna dive right into our interview segment of the podcast, and I'm gonna let Ray introduce Jane.Ray Loewe  2:17  Okay, thank you for the opportunity. So Jane, first of all, is an author. She is a certified coach. She's a speaker, she's given TEDx talks, okay. And she also describes herself as a lifestyle, lifestyle entrepreneur. And, Jane, if you would put up with me, I'd like to start there. Because what is a lifestyle entrepreneur? And how did you get there?Jane Pollak  2:43  Great question. And delighted to be on with the two of you. I was I, I wanted to have balance in my life. And I had started as an art teacher, my husband and I, now ex husband and I met at Columbia Teachers College, university, teachers college, and I was teaching art. And then I started my family many, many, many decades ago. And I wanted to continue to produce art, but I also wanted to stay home. So I had this wonderful craft called pysanky, which is Ukrainian easter eggs. And I decided to make a business out of that, which is not something people encourage you, to do make a business out of decorating eggs, but I was very successful at it. And I said that, rather than me working for my business, my business would work for me. So I had an at home business, it was income for the family, it wasn't the primary income. But it allowed me to do what I wanted to do what I love to raise my kids and to make a contribution to the family. So I did that for 30 years, and then from like, 1973 to 2003. And then I stopped and, you know, went into something else. But it was it was a business for me for all those years while I got to have the balance in my life of being home with my kids.Ray Loewe  3:57  Okay, I think that go, ahead KC.KC Dempster  3:59  Well, I was just gonna say, you know, the concept of making a business out of decorating eggs is absolutely fascinating to me. And how how ornate were they I mean, cuz I'm, I'm imagining Faberge eggs, which of course had gold and jewels and all that kind of stuff. So what Tell me about a Ukrainian easter egg.Jane Pollak  4:20  So it's basically a raw egg with wax and dye, I wrote a book called, Decorating Eggs, Exquisite Designs with Wax and Dye. And it really goes back to advice my father gave us when we were young. He said just you know, if you can be the best at something, you'll own the market. Well, I chose a very small market, you know. However, I exploited it, to the extent like you know, gave a TEDx talk about it. I had eggs in the White House. I wrote a book about it. I created. I was on catalog covers, I I did workshops. I made it work for me and it was a successful business. I you know, was Near six figures for, you know, several years of that, doing many, many different things. I'm very entrepreneurial. And to me an entrepreneur is someone who finds the opportunity. So I just kept finding opportunities of ways to convey it. And one of them became telling my story, if I can make a business out of this, you can make a business out of anything. And, you know, it was a motivational keynote speech, and I became a keynote speaker, and tell people because the remember that book, "Everything I Needed to Know, I Learned in Kindergarten?" yes, I needed to know about business, I learned decorating eggs. And so my second book was sole proprietor, "Sole Proprietor: 101 Lessons from a Lifestyle Entrepreneur" because I learned so much about you know, how to market how to set goals, how to set your pricing, how to I had legal issues, at one point, somebody was imitating my designs. And so, you know, I learned everything any business owner learns, and I conveyed that. So, you know, it was, you know, as a 30 year fabulous career and people it was very memorable.Ray Loewe  6:00  Yeah, and, you know, this is just a perfect example of what you can do if you get excited about something, and you have a skillset that you can use. And my understanding, although I didn't ever see one of your eggs, Jane, do I have to go to the White House to see one?Jane Pollak  6:15  Haha, they're in the Smithsonian? So they're there a couple in the Ronald Reagan collection in Simi Valley? I think it is. So you might find it there. But you can you can find my book on Amazon. It's called Decorating Eggs, Exquisite Designs with Wax and Dye. And there, it's a type of thing Ray and KC, that you'll laugh when I say this, but you know, I would go to a not a cocktail party, but just meet people, because I didn't really get invited to many of those. But they say what do you do? And I'd say I decorate eggs, and they would go look for the next available person.What I learned to do was bring a picture of my eggs and they'll say, Wow, how do you do that? Haha, they are. They're extraordinary. And I would encourage people to you know, look me up. It's Jane Pollak without a C, P-O-L-L-A-K, And on the artist page, there's, you know, their pictures. I was on the flax catalog cover, I was on HGTV I was on the Today Show. They were museum quality works.Ray Loewe  7:15  And you know, you created a book on this and you sold 30,000 copies or somethingJane Pollak  7:20  thirty thousand copies. And that was my first book. And actually, it's in reprint now somebody else bought, I own the rights. And somebody else actually scanned and printed the entire book. So it's available again.Ray Loewe  7:31  Wow. Okay, we may come back and talk about eggs more over. But but there's so much about you, that intrigues me because because you're the perfect example of one of the luckiest people in the world, you first of all, you you sat down and you said, you know, I'm gonna stay home and take care of my kids. But I don't want to do nothing. And I'm an artist. So how do I make this work? And how do I tailor something. And now you've kind of moved on, I don't know whether you got tired of eggs or eggs got tired of you? Or, or maybe you know,Jane Pollak  8:03  Ray, my line is I said everything in eggs I needed to sayRay Loewe  8:07  which is perfect. Because Because this is a pivot point which says, Okay, it's time to move on. I've gotten everything out of this. And you can do this as one of the luckiest people in the world. And, and you've moved on to this whole concept of lifestyle entrepreneur. But before we get there, I have to I have to talk about something, It's called study hall. Now, I don't know if you ever go ahead. Tell us about study.Jane Pollak  8:35  I'll explain it. But I know where you're going. And I saw my acupuncturist yesterday. And I said something about it's the Jewish New Year just started, or Yeah, and I said I wished her happy new year she she's not Jewish, but it's just like that time of year. So I said, it'll be nice when 2020 is over. And she said, why it has been very good to you, you found this new craft that you're doing and also your family has gotten much closer. And you know, because of the pandemic, we're doing weekly zoom calls together with my ex husband and our grown children and grandchildren. So that never would have happened. So I have so much to be appreciative of. And the art form is called Penny rugs. It's another one you have to look at pictures because it doesn't say what it is. But I started I took a class right before we were all quarantined, and fell in love with this craft. And, you know, with anything that you'd love to do, you often don't make time to do it for yourself. And so I created something called a an online creative study hall, where people will join and do whatever project they want to do for and that's how we met was through a woman who wanted to create a operations manual for her business. And so she did 30 hours with me online where we both had our cameras on through zoom. And we work for three, two or three hour chunks, you know, three times a week. So most people don't allow them themselves that that really delightor That structured a time period. But when you do, you go really deep. And somebody was on I started a new one last week and women said she had taken a webinar on writing a book. And the woman, the woman who was leading it said, what everybody needs is a time enforcer. And what my study hall is really a time enforcer or somebody else called it a forcing mechanism. People are paying me to work with me, and I get paid to do the work that I love. So I'll be working for two and a half hours this afternoon sewing while somebody else's. She's downloading a. She's transcribing. I her journals. And that's what she wants to do. But she needs that committed time. And we'll doKC Dempster  10:43  that's so true. You know, when I moved into my current abode, 13 years ago, I had boxes and boxes of photographs. And I my plan was I was going to get them all organized. And there's still a mess.Jane Pollak  10:56  KC there's room in my group.Ray Loewe  10:59  When you know i i'm absolutely fascinated by this. So so you know, this is a quick aside, when are you going to do recess?Jane Pollak  11:07  Well, in between at the top of every hour, we do a little stretch, we do a little shimmy, shake and take a few deep breaths. And that's recess because people really want to make the time count. And there's something very particular when you work for three hours straight, that you go really, really deep in something. Because most of us when it gets the going gets tough. We go to the refrigerator, we make a phone call, we look at our phones, you know, we do something to distract ourselves. But when you're you've committed and do it, you work through those difficulties. Usually your Gremlins come up. An example I gave was when I have a very large egg commission, I was doing an ostrich egg for something. And I was looking for it was for burn survivors. And I was trying to find the phoenix rising from the ashes as the main symbol. And I had committed to this was years ago. Brian Tracy calls it single handling. You know, I'm calling it an online study hall, but to doing two hours on the design, and I couldn't find the image and I couldn't find the image and the voices were saying you might have to give back that deposit. Jane, what Who did you think you were taking this on? But I stayed I stayed with it. And then you know, I was googling images and I found the exact right image and I thought I should charge more for this. This is beautiful.It's really working through that. That gets us to the point of you know, of passing something rather than giving up and distracting ourselves. So I'm actually giving people a real benefit to that. You know that a butt in the chair concept that writers talk about? That's really what it takes.Ray Loewe  12:37  Oh, yeah, it seems it seems dumb that we would need something like that. But we all need an accountability coach. And, and I find I've found different ways of getting mine but without an accountability coach, I don't get my stuff done. So Jane to be commended.Jane Pollak  12:52  Yeah, yeah, no, I do that I do it you know, as well for clients who want to work with me one on one. And, you know, the accountability is I have a client calling this afternoon and she had a phone call to make she had a letter to respond to, you know, she had very specific action steps that she needed to take for this afternoon to report in, because she's paying me She wants to get the value from it. And and people do need that forcing mechanism. So I'm I'm good at motivating myself and I'm really good at helping other people stay motivated.Ray Loewe  13:21  Yeah, so so what's going on in your head here? You know, it's got to be an amazing brain because you started as an artist, okay? You were extremely creative in a way to do an egg by Jane. Okay. You know, you got a book, you got easter eggs out there. And you've you've morphed you've taken your system and you're sharing it with other people now as kind of a lifestyle coach. Mm hmm. Am I right?Jane Pollak  13:47  Absolutely. Absolutely. I what I do in my coaching and I'm certified to coach so it wasn't something I made up I you know, I had a coach and I thought I want to do that. But I'm an artist, how can I do that? Because it transformed my business when I worked with a coach. And then I started taking classes and and learning and then I took on several practice clients. And then I got really good at it got certified, took a leadership training course through the same Institute. And you know, I've been coaching since 2002, which is a long time. A lot of people start and stop and can't find clientele. But I've been fortunate and you know, very lucky person in the world. And I love doing it. I love listening to the intimacy that coaching creates is something that I love having in my business. RightKC Dempster  14:33  now. Do you get frustrated when you're coaching somebody and you're giving them very sound, Very positive leadership, and they just aren't buying it? Yes. So what do you do when that happens?Jane Pollak  14:48  You know, I just heard somebody speaking in another context, and he had really good questions that I'm going to incorporate now. And I think the main question is, what's the cost of you're not doing this? Okay, yeah, like you're getting out of resisting this. What's the you know, what's the benefit to you? Because, you know, whether it's staying in a dead end marriage, and I don't I don't do marriage counseling, but sometimes the writing is just on the wall and people stay because they do. What, you know, what are you gaining from this? So we don't ask why we ask powerful questions like, what, what's in it for you? Right? There's always something, you know, there's always something.Ray Loewe  15:29  Okay, so we have just been through an incredible change. And I think going forward, life is going to continue to be an incredible change. So as we move beyond this COVID thing, what do you see happening with your clients, your life, you know, the, the universe in general. So so when we move into normal 2.0, over here, 2.7, or whatever it's gonna be, I don't think we're going back where we were. And so what's gonna happen with the way you do things and the way you're coaching,Jane Pollak  16:04  I, I feel like I've been onto something for a very long time. And that's, you know, the old do what you love, and the money will follow. I am so happy in my days, I wake up joyfully, I love what I'm doing. I love my coaching, I love my sewing, I love being creative. I love the people, and, and I'm staying home, you know, 90% of the time, you know, I'm in my pool, just reopened at my health club. So I'm basically home and go out for an hour walk. We're I don't, I know that those chains will be loosened. But I think it's really being happy within yourself is the key. And if you can find what makes you happy. And coaching is really a you know, a beneficial tool towards that. I can help people find that it's like what lights you up? You know, that's a prime question. Or talk about a peak experience. When do you remember being really happy in your life? And what was that? And I think people realize, well, I could, you know, I could never do that I could never, you know, not, you know, I can't pay the mortgage. But in fact, people are managing now somehow, where everything has been taken away, or, you know, so much of what we rely on our foundational beliefs have been taken away. I think it starts inside, and our can our connection to ourselves and to other people is what makes me happy. And I believe what makes other people happy. We just throw so many layers on top of that, that we didn't even we don't even realize that that's what we have.Ray Loewe  17:24  Well, you know, unfortunately, Jane, we're at the end of our time, you know, it goes so fast. And you know, we'll have to talk more and maybe get you back on here again. But But I think the the comment I want to make is you very definitely are one of the luckiest people in the world.  you exude confidence, you found your way to do things. And I think as a leader of other people, I you know, I love to kind of hang out with you when I get a chance to do that. Because you're inspiring and motivating. And I really want to do an Easter egg and I can't do Easter eggs...Jane Pollak  18:04  very, very, very good instruction. I think you'll you'll enjoy it. But it's you know, it was republished so you can find it now.Ray Loewe  18:11  Well, and study hall I can do and what a great idea. And you know, thanks for bringing that up. And, and people can reach you through your website. It's very simple, Jane pollak.com. Right.Jane Pollak  18:23  Right. And there's no C and my last name, a lot of people insert a C so it's POLLAK.Ray Loewe  18:27  Yeah. And we're gonna post this with our podcast notes so that people will be able to see it and find you. And, you know, thanks so much for being with us. And Taylor, let's talk to both of you. Let's, let's take a quick break, and then we'll come back and close up.Diane Dayton  18:43  You're listening to Changing the Rules with KC Dempster. And Ray Loewe, the luckiest guy in the world. We will be right back with more exciting information.KC Dempster  18:53  Welcome back, everybody. That was really great talking with Jane. She's so positive and upbeat. And I'm noticing, I believe that there's a trend in the people that we talk to that they are very optimistic, positive, upbeat people.Ray Loewe  19:09  Yeah, and I'm excited from this thing. I mean, you sit there and you to say, Okay, I can't get something done because I just never can get to it and, and the concept of study hall just came out of Jane, you know, and and it's just exciting the way people are doing things. And I think she's absolutely right. You do what you love, and you figure out a way to make it work. And sometimes it's a little difficult, but there's always a way. And that's what the luckiest people in the world do. So we'll see you in a week.Diane Dayton  19:41  Thank you for listening to Changing the Rules, a podcast designed to help you live your life the way you want, and give you what you need to make it happen. Join us in two weeks for our next exciting topics on changing the rules with KC Dempster and Ray Loewe, the luckiest guy in the world.   

One thing we can learn about walking with Jesus is that He never promised you won’t be persecuted and never said you won’t be tested. What Christ did say is that if you follow him you will be persecuted but you also will WALK IN PROMISE that He is RIGHT THERE with you. BE DIFFERENT!

FOUR BULLS IN FIVE DAYS ON NEW MEXICO PUBLIC LAND! Part 2 - Live from the ElkBros Elk Camp: The weather went from 90 degrees overnight to 23 degrees with snow on the ground and the bulls bugling! The Venezuelan Mafia have already tagged out and this time it's Joe and Gilbert getting it done. But this show is way more than just story time. Your coaches talk about some important aspects for us all to think about and give you personal perspectives and thoughts to help you take that next step to becoming a more successful elk hunter.This is as real as it gets! Recorded live from the ElkBros New Mexico 2020 Elk Camp. The crew tell the stories, share the trials and tribulations and talk about important lessons learned. They also share the techniques and strategies they used for the various stages and conditions of the hunt. Y'all, this is exactly what we all go through and how to come out winning!We have always wanted you to feel like you were with us in elk camp and y’all, it doesn’t get any better than this. You are RIGHT THERE! It’s the last night, the fire is roaring and everyone is in the house. So pull up a chair and welcome to Elk Camp! We hope you enjoy! EVERYTHING ElkBros – https://www.elkbros.comPURCHASE ElkBros Merch - https://gear.elkbros.comBLUE COLLAR ELK HUNTING ACADEMY - https://elkbros.com/shopWatch the Blue Collar Elk Hunting Podcast: https://youtube.com/c/elkbrosListen to their Blue Collar Elk Hunting Podcast: http://podcast.elkbros.com/ SUBSCRIBE! SUBSCRIBE! SUBSCRIBE!WANT TO SUPPORT the ElkBros Programming?? -https://www.patreon.com/elkbrosFOLLOW THE ElkBros…Joe Giglia - @elkbrosLeroy ‘Chav’ Chavez - @elkbroschavGilbert Ornelas (Big O) - @go_outdoors_txnm The Venezuelan Mafia:Luis Gonzalez - @onlyhunters Manano Grateron - @manuelgrateronContact Us:info@elkbros.comSupport the show (https://www.patreon.com/elkbros)

It's God's Word. Seems to me that's important. Right? There are more Bibles in our homes now than ever before, but they are read less and less. Here's a short message on studying His Word.

Karah Nazor is a biologist, science teacher, aquarist (she raises 3 species of jellyfish in her lab), She loves to swim in oceans, lakes and rivers, Karah is also the Race Director of Swim the Suck, and she loves insanely spicy food and IPAs. Karah teaches scientific research, molecular biology, environmental science, general biology, and marine biology at The McCallie. In her lab, her team of research students embarks on a range of projects from the effects of ocean acidification on jellyfish, to spawning ctenophores for growing primary cell cultures in vitro, to optimizing hatching and methods for rearing freshwater fairy shrimp. She earned a Bachelor of Science degree in Biology from James Madison University in 1999. She swam sprint freestyle and backstroke events for the JMU Dukes. She earned a Ph.D. in Gerontology from the University of Kentucky in 2005, followed by a postdoctoral research at the University of California San Francisco for 4 years where she studied prion disease. Karah is from Chattanooga, TN. She started swimming competitively at the age of 7 for the Chattanooga Area Swim League’s East Ridge Youth Foundation. Her grandmother grew up in Suck Creek (she was born in the Pot House) in the heart of the TN River Gorge. She taught her how to make yodel calls which echoed down the canyon and she dreamed of swimming through that gorge one day. She was a student/athlete for the Girls Preparatory School (GPS) Bruisers. In high school, she remembers wishing they could put their yards in the river rather than the pool (the river was RIGHT THERE!) and she also knew that one day she would attempt to swim the English Channel. Fast forward through ~15,000 miles of natatorium swim practice, She finally found herself at home training for an Alcatraz race in the frigid waters of the San Francisco Bay at the South End Rowing Club. There, she befriended channel swimmers who inspired and encouraged her, and soon enough, she became one of them. There, she also learned to surf at Ocean Beach and became an abalone freediver. Thanks for listening! Find all our episodes at dayfirepodcast.com This podcast is powered by ZenCast.fm

On this episode we have the face of "Oh Yeah, Right There.." Ms. Deborah Porter. We get into.... » Religion stopping women from true sexual freedom » Misconceptions about mature women's sex drive » Her sexual demands and men using trendy tricks to hide their lack of sexual skills » How she views younger men in the aspect of dating » Sex during and after menopause » Having the uncomfortable "sex talk" with our children » The process behind her writing and if she lives them out » Is "fingering" desirable anymore » Her experiences at sex clubs » Closing the episode with a very poem You won't want to miss this one!

Hey HBs! We're here with part two of The Prince of Broadway by Joanna Shupe! It's got an incredible emotional arc AND the best ending for the characters! Plus, you know, hot hot sex that Melody needs to talk about in detail.  Bonus Content:  McFlurry Mulligans, McFlurry Stories, Nymphs and Satyrs, toddler parenting, Erin tries to gloss over a sex scene and Melody stops her RIGHT THERE, and so much more!  Podcast Shout Out:  Encyclopedia Womannica! Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts for 5 minute lessons on badass women throughout history!  For tons of bonus content, shout outs, and gifts, check out our PATREON! Subscribe! Rate! Review!  Merch: Redbubble And follow our socials:  Instagram: @heavingbosoms Twitter: @heaving_bosoms Facebook

How to escape a 6' x 6' closet with 3 slow zombies that are RIGHT THERE! Email - visceralist@gmail.com Instagram / Twitter - @visceralist Patreon! If you want to help support to the show - https://www.patreon.com/visceralist Also available on Spotify & iTunes! © Visceralist LLC

On this episode of the Healthy, Wealthy and Smart Podcast, Jenna Kantor guests hosts and interviews Javier Carlin on the art of listening.  Javier A. Carlin is the Clinic Director at Renewal Rehab in Largo, Florida. He is originally from Miami, he graduated with his Doctoral Degree in Physical Therapy at Florida International University and is a Certified Strength & Conditioning Specialist through the National Strength & Conditioning Association. In this episode, we discuss: -The difference between nosy curiosity and coaching curiosity -How to frame questions to dive deeper into conversations -Verbal and nonverbal signals to watch for during client interviews -How your clinic environment can help develop deeper client relationships -And so much more! Resources: Javier Carlin Facebook Javier Carlin Instagram  Life Coaching Academy for Healthcare Professionals Phone number: (305) 323-0427   A big thank you to Net Health for sponsoring this episode! Learn more about the Redoc Patient Portal here.   For more information on Javier: Javier A. Carlin is the Clinic Director at Renewal Rehab in Largo, Florida. He is originally from Miami, he graduated with his Doctoral Degree in Physical Therapy at Florida International University and is a Certified Strength & Conditioning Specialist through the National Strength & Conditioning Association. Javier has always had a passion for health and fitness and his mission in life is to help you get back to doing the things that you love to do, pain-free. His goal is to inspire people to live a healthier, happier, more fulfilling live through simple and effective wellness principles; proper nutrition coupled with a great exercise routine and good sleeping habits works wonders in how you feel inside and out! Javier enjoys spending time with his family, he loves being by the water either soaking up the sun on the beach or on a boat! He is an avid traveler, enjoys exploring new places and experiencing different cultures. He also has an adventurous side; bungee jumping, skydiving, rollercoasters, cliff diving! For more information on Jenna: Jenna Kantor (co-founder) is a bubbly and energetic girl who was born and raised in Petaluma, California. Growing up, she trained and performed ballet throughout the United States. After earning a BA in Dance and Drama at the University of California, Irvine, she worked professionally in musical theatre for 15+ years with tours, regional theatres, & overseas (www.jennakantor.com) until she found herself ready to move onto a new chapter in her life – a career in Physical Therapy. Jenna is currently in her 3rd year at Columbia University’s Physical Therapy Program. She is also a co-founder of the podcast, “Physiotherapy Performance Perspectives,” has an evidence-based monthly youtube series titled “Injury Prevention for Dancers,” is a NY SSIG Co-Founder, NYPTA Student Conclave 2017 Development Team, works with the NYPTA Greater New York Legislative Task Force and is the NYPTA Public Policy Committee Student Liaison. Jenna aspires to be a physical therapist for amateur and professional performers to help ensure long, healthy careers. To learn more, please check out her website: www.jennafkantor.wixsite.com/jkpt Read the full transcript below: Jenna Kantor (00:04): Hello. Hello. Hello. This is Jenna Kantor with healthy, wealthy and smart. I am here with Javier Carlin, thank you so much for coming on. It is an absolute joy Javier. As a physical therapist. He runs a clinic. What is the name of your clinic that you run? Javier Carlin (00:21): It's renewal rehab. Jenna Kantor (00:23): Renewal. Rehab. In what area though? In Florida. Cause you're part of a chain. Javier Carlin (00:27): Yeah, it's in Largo, Florida. So close to Clearwater. Jenna Kantor (00:30): Yes. I feel like the key Largo, Montego baby. What are we going to make it? I feel like that's part of a song. Right? Well thank you so much for coming on. You also, Oh, you also do have an online course. What's your online course? Javier Carlin (00:45): Yeah. Yeah, so it's a life coaching Academy for health care professionals where I teach healthcare professionals how to become life coaches and get their first clients. Jenna Kantor (00:54): Freaking awesome and perfect timing for that right now with everything. Corona. Thank you so much for coming on during this time and giving us both something to do. I wanted to bring Javier in because he has a skill, a magic skill that if you don't know him or you do know him now, you know, he is a Supreme listener. The first thing we did when we got on this call is, he goes, he just asked me questions just to listen what's going on. And I don't, of course I try to emulate it, but I'm not as good at him. You know, like I asked a few questions and I didn't deep dive as well as he does. So I want to dive into his brain and with this pen that I have holding and I'm going to part the hairs, get through the skull into the cerebrum. And so we can really deep dive into how your brain works when you are learning more about others, the art of listening. So first of all, thank you for having that skill. Javier Carlin (02:08): Yeah, no, absolutely. I honestly had no idea I had it until someone brought it up. And then looking into, it's kind of one of those things where, you know, I guess you have a skill. But you don't really know it. And then you try to dissect, okay, what exactly am I doing? Right? So, you know, leading up to this interview, I'm like, okay, let me actually think about this and reflect on what it is that I do. And what is it that I don't do? So that I can actually, you know, hopefully provide some value throughout the next few minutes. Jenna Kantor (02:40): Yeah, I would love to know. I think I want to just go into our conversation even before hitting the record button. What was in your brain when you first came on? Was it, Oh, I want to know what's going on. I'm just honestly like what was in that led you to start the conversation that way? Javier Carlin (02:58): That's a great question. So to be honest, I mean, I haven't seen you in a long time. We haven't spoken in a while. And so, I really, you know, did want to know what's been going on in your life? I've seen your, you know, posts on Facebook, but really had no idea what it is that you've been working on. And I always know you're up to something. So I really had a deep desire to really find out exactly what you've been working on and the people that you've been impacting. Just to know. I don't know. It's like, it's just natural for me. So, yeah. Jenna Kantor (03:38): You're like a curious George. Javier Carlin (03:40): Exactly. Yes. Jenna Kantor (03:42): Do you think that is a big base of it? It's just true curiosity. Javier Carlin (03:47): Yes. I think it's a curiosity and definitely curiosity. I'm always you know, really in tune with what people are doing. Cause I feel like it just, you know, looking deeper at it. I feel like there's, it just, I come from a place of always wanting to learn more about someone, deeply understand what they're doing and why they're doing it. Cause I think there's a lot to say about that. And it's very similar with you know, health care professionals in the sense that we're working with patients all day and we are truly, really trying to figure out you know, what's going on and where they want to get to and understanding really what they truly want the outcome to be when it comes to us helping them throughout, you know, our physical therapy and other rehab professions. And it's no different. Like that's the same, the same curiosity that I have when I, you know I'm serving patients I have with people in general. So I do believe that curiosity is a big thing and having the curiosity that's a, not in a nosy curiosity but more of like a coaching curiosity and really figuring out what's behind the words that someone is saying. Jenna Kantor (05:02): What do you mean by nosy versus coaching? Would you mind going into more depth on that? Javier Carlin (05:09): So, yeah, absolutely. So I believe, and this is, you know, there's a clear you know, when you're having a conversation with a friend, you're not really thinking about all these things. And then I think deeper into the coaching side of things, you start to think about the specific things. So when it comes to a nosy curiosity, there's always a story that someone's telling you and sometimes the story isn't even related to what the person is actually dealing with. So people use the story to kind of, let's see how I can put this to separate themselves from the interaction that you're having. Cause it's sometimes it's stuff for us to have conversations with people and really get deep down into our own emotions. So the story around it as you know, as someone who's dove into life coaching the story is actually at times something to distract people from that. And sometimes what I mean by nosy curiosity is that we actually get involved in that story, which has nothing to do with why the person is talking to you in the first place. Jenna Kantor (06:09): So it's like this superficial, superficial kind of thing, superficial thing, right? Javier Carlin (06:13): So instead of being nosy and it's the actual story and talking about the people that were in their story, we want to, you know, kind of separate that from the actual person and have a conversation about them and why that situation affected them as a person, not, you know, bringing everyone else. So that's what I mean by nosy. And he knows he's trying to get involved in their story and you know, getting involved in not just their emotions but everyone else's emotions and why they hate their boss and why this and why that. So it's really separating that from what they're telling you. Jenna Kantor (06:45): Hmm. I like that. Yeah. Yeah. Could you just keep talking cause I don't even know what question to ask next just because I'm really taking that in right now. Just tell me something else more about listening. Cause I know you came prepared just because when you're going into this, you just opened up a world of how much, I don't know, just from even that concept. So I feel a bit of the, honestly a lot of loss of words for it because just even that concept of the superficial versus diving deep down in, I guess my next question would be then when you deep dive in and you're getting, doing those investigative questions to really find out what really is the core of what's going on, how do you phrase your questions too? Because you're probably going to get to some real personal stuff. How do you do it delicately with them? So that way as you are deepening, deepening your listening, you're not invading their space. Javier Carlin (07:54): That's a beautiful question. So, I think a lot of it comes before you know, before you dive into that. So you know, you've heard of obviously you're building rapport, building trust, and at the end of the day, if someone's coming for help it typically comes with an idea that, okay, I'm going to have to, if I want someone to help me, then I have to open up to them. Otherwise, you can't really help someone. So I think, you know, it comes with that understanding and I think a lot of it also comes from coming from a place of neutrality. So not tying your emotions and your ideas and your thoughts and your beliefs and your opinions to what the person is telling you. Jenna Kantor (08:37): That's hard. That's hard. Yes. Very hard. Yeah. Javier Carlin (08:41): It really is. And, that's where, you know, that's when someone can actually feel that you're trying to either push them in a direction that they don't want to go, or that's where that nosy type of know feeling comes in, where they're like, Oh, like why are you, why are you asking me that? But I think the second thing is whenever you make an opposite, whenever you make a statement that's more of an observation or a fact Javier Carlin (09:08): As opposed to, you know, something that's a bit more emotional, you want to always end with a question. So as an example, a question. So after every statement you want to end with a question saying, Hey, you know, what's true about that? Or what comes to your mind when you hear that? Those, two questions allow you to kind of pull yourself from Hey, listen, what comes to your mind when I say that? As opposed to I'm saying this because Hey, you should do this or you should do that. Or you know, that came out like pretty that that came out as if, you know, instead of saying, Hey, you sound angry. Right? It's saying, okay, like what, you know, when I heard that it sounded like you, you know, there was some anger and what's true about that and now you're giving them the ability to respond back to that. Javier Carlin (09:57): So now it's more of an observation as opposed to kind of like telling them, or you know, letting them know, Hey, you sound angry. Right? There's more emotion to that. It's more of like, Hey, you're coming at me now. That's when someone can get a bit defensive or feel like their space has been invaded. But when you just state a fact and then ask them a question, it makes it a lot easier to have that conversation moving forward. I hope that, does that make sense? Jenna Kantor (10:25): Yeah, that does. That does big time. It actually connects, it brings it back to a conversation I had with my brother. I'm going to go a little deep on my own thing. I remember my older brother and I don't have a good relationship, but this is back in high school and there's a point to this that's not just about me, even though if anyone knows me, I love talking about myself, but he, I remember there was one evening where he was more of a night elephant, and we started talking. It was a rare time, was a rare opportunity when you just get into a deep conversation about life and anything and we were already at least an hour or something in and I'm just feeling my eyes shut on me. And I remember going through this like I have two options to continue this conversation to continue this conversation with him. Jenna Kantor (11:29): So I remember I had this opportunity to continue the conversation and force myself to stay awake and I felt like it was a very vital conversation. There was this little thing that was like, if I cut this off, it will be cutting off something big in our relationship. Me not being here to be part and present when he's open and being open to talking to me, for me to be able to hear what he has to say. Do you think that and it has over time now we don't have more. We have more solidly not a strong relationship. Do think there are conversations like that that exists that if you are not present and listening and you push it away too soon, it could actually cause damage to that relationship long term. Javier Carlin (12:33): Oh, 150%. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. and you know, it's tough. You know, diving back into exactly, you know, what you were feeling and how you're feeling and why perhaps that conversation was maybe at that time of interest or something that, like you were saying, you know, you felt like maybe falling asleep. Javier Carlin (13:03): So, you know, there's a lot to it that we could dissect really. But yes, I do agree with that. I think what happens in many conversations especially, you know, looking into it even deeper, it's, you know, when people have make offhand comments you know, short little statements in between the conversation that you're having. Most people are quick to kind of just let that pass. But that's what the person truly deep, deep inside is actually feeling and really wants to talk about. Everything else is just surface level. So, you know, exploring those offhand comments goes a very long way. And that's when people really know that you're truly focusing on them. And listening to them and that's where you get into those deeper conversations now. Again, back to the story that you just shared. There's so many different factors when it comes to that, but I definitely do believe that that can have a massive impact on, you know, the relationship moving forward and with anyone with, you know, your patients, your clients, people remember how you made them feel and that really, really sticks. Jenna Kantor (14:19): Yeah, you guys can't see me, but I'm like, yes. Hey man, I feel like I just went to church on that. But it's how you made them feel. So then, back to the clinic, you could have say a busy time, a lot of people, a lot of patients and everything and your time is running short. How do you cater to these conversations? If you see that there needs to be more time or if you do need to cut it shorter, how do you continue to feed that relationship, that trust? So you can have find an opportunity maybe later to spend more time listening to them. If you don't have it right then. Javier Carlin (14:52): That's a great question. I think there's several different ways to do it. I'll speak to more cause there's a tactical way of doing it and that's, you know, with I guess you can call it, you know, nature and the relationship through other methods with text messaging, emails and all those things. Right. Where you feel that connection with someone and continue to develop that relationship over time through sometimes automated, you know, systems and or where you're actually just sending a mass email, you know, once a week where it can still actually help to build a relationship. Right. But on the other front, you know, with our clinic specifically the way that we do that, because we do work as a team cause we are, you know, we do have insurance based model. Javier Carlin (15:40): So we do see several patients an hour. Because of the team that we have where for us specifically, it's a PT, two PTAs and two techs. Once we have a fully established clinic and got into that point that is where the PTA is that we have actually step in to treat the other patients that are there. And if I noticed, cause there's a lot of so when it comes to listening, there's, you know, when people say active listening, active listening really is it's not just listening to the words that are coming out of someone else, someone else's mouth, but also painted with everything else that's going on the unsaid, right? You really want to explore the unsaid. And that comes with a body language. You know, a visual cue is a body posture. You know, the way someone says something, their tone, their pace, right? Javier Carlin (16:28): And obviously as you get to know someone, you really get to feel how they feel when they're having a great day and when they're having a not so good day. So, you know, not letting, again, kind of like not letting offhand comments go. You don't want to let those, the visual kind of feedback that you're getting you don't want to let that go either. So, when you do see someone that's in that specific state where they might be disappointed, angry, upset, frustrated, you want to make sure that you address that right there. And then, and the way that we do that specifically at the clinic is we take them into the evaluation room and we can do that because of the fact that we work as a team, everyone on the team knows exactly what every single patient should be doing and knows them at a deep level so I could actually step out and have that deeper conversation with whoever needs it at that time. Javier Carlin (17:20): We'll sit for, you know, five, 10, 15 minutes, however long we need, really to explore what is going on at a deeper level so that we can ensure that they don't drop off. Cause typically what happens is that when you don't, when you just kind of let that go, that's where you get a patient call in to cancel and then it happens not just once, but twice, three times, four times, and then they ghost you. So that's how we handle that situation. Jenna Kantor (17:50): Absolutely. Absolutely. I think that's a really important thing to put into place. So for clinics alone, how would you, if they don't have something set up and say they're a busy clinic and they don't have something set up where people can have the time to necessarily sit and listen, how could they start implementing that in order to improve the relationships with their patients and then they're showing up? Javier Carlin (18:13): Yeah, that's a great question. And I think there's so many variables depending on how the clinic is set up and ran. I believe that, you know, I think as you know, obviously as physical therapists ourselves, I think our first instinct is to always like go to like the physical, right? Like, you're feeling this way today. Okay, don't worry. Like, we're going to make you feel better after this. It's like, wait a second. Well maybe the person, maybe for those initial 30 minutes, they don't even need, you know, therapeutic exercises or whatever it is that we're prescribing them for that day. Maybe they just need to have a conversation, right, for 20, 30 minutes and just to let it all out. And those 30 minutes of actually just talking to them just because we can't bill for that time technically. That's going to be the difference maker between them actually seeing the results longterm and dropping off. So it's making that clear distinction and deciding, okay, what this person needs at this point in time is not, you know, to do a core exercises or to get manual therapy. What they need is to just have a conversation about what's going on in their world. Cause ultimately that's what matters the most event. Jenna Kantor (19:28): So yeah, true question. I think that was great. That was good. I just want you to know, okay. So then during this time, the Corona virus, what has your clinic been exploring on a listening standpoint with the switch to virtual to try to fit those needs? Like, I don't know, it's kind of an open ended question for you to interpret this however you'd like. Javier Carlin (19:58): Yes. So I think, you know, it's been, to be honest, it's been a challenge. And the biggest reason why is, you know, knowing that tele-health existed for, you know, the last year, two years, et cetera. And, has been existing, we didn't really make a push to have that as an additional service. So what's happening now is that it's like physical therapy, right? A lot of people still don't know what physical therapy is and it's not something that they necessarily want. It's just something that they need. Right? So, same thing with telehealth. It's something that, you know, now we're adding to things that people don't know, which is physical therapy and telehealth. And now we're, you know, most people are now trying to figure out, okay, how can we push tele-health without, you know, having any like, previous conversation about this. Javier Carlin (20:53): So that's where the challenge lies is that you have people who are, you know, the ones who do know what physical therapy is. We're coming in and you know, when they think of PT, they have this, you know, they have this picture in their mind because it's what they've been doing for the past, you know, X amount of weeks and now you're trying to get them to jump on to a different type of platform to, you know, provide a service that in their minds can only be done in person. So what we've seen started to do is we've started to offer complimentary telehealth visits. So the first visit is completely free 15 to 20 minutes in length. And offering that first, you know, giving the patient an opportunity to experience what it's like and showing them how valuable it can be. Javier Carlin (21:39): And then from there deciding to make an offer for them to actually purchase, you know, X amount of business. And typically, you know, your time is your time, so you want to typically charge the same that you would an actual in person session. But because this is so new, we have decided to offer it at a very, very low rate. So that barrier to entry is a lot less, especially in this time where you know, people's finances might not be at their all time high, or at least, they're not going to say, they're a little bit more reserved with what they're spending their money on. People are still spending money, but with what they're spending their money on. So that's how we're handling that now. A lot of, you know, constant communication through text messages, emails and just listening. Jenna Kantor (22:34): Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. That's amazing. Thank you so much for coming on. Is there anything else you want to add in regards to the art of listening that you think is a key point for people to take home with them? Javier Carlin (22:47): Yeah, so I think the last thing, and this is actually a quote from Stephen Covey and I have it here cause I didn't want to butcher it, but basically he says most people do not listen with the intent to learn and understand. They listen with the intent to reply. They are either speaking or preparing to speak. So that's it. Jenna Kantor (23:09): That's great. That's a really good quote. Sums it up. Yeah. Well thank you so much for coming on Javier. How can people find you on social media? What are your addresses on Facebook, Instagram, all the above? Javier Carlin (23:32): Sure. So I'm on Instagram. I'm at @drJavierCarlin. So dr Javier Carlin on Facebook have your Carlin's so you can just look me up there and friend request me. I do have life coaching Academy for healthcare professionals a Facebook community. So you can always jump into that as well with a podcast coming out soon. And I think that's it. If you want to send me a, you know, text message and just link up my phone number is (305) 323-0427 to have a conversation. Jenna Kantor (24:05): I love that. I love that so much and if you guys want to see or hear him in action, if you're in the group or even in his future podcast, you'll see from the way he interviews and speaks with people how he really uses his curiosity and deep dives and learns more and listens so well. Just watching him in action alone, aside from just even experiencing it yourself, you'd be like, Oh wow, he's good at this. I feel very listened to, thank you so much for coming on. Everyone jumping in, thank you for joining and have a great day.   Thanks for listening and subscribing to the podcast! Make sure to connect with me on twitter, instagram  and facebook to stay updated on all of the latest!  Show your support for the show by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcasts!

In This Episode Sharky Quizzes Steph on movie Quotes,Sound effects and Music to test her Movie Knowledge. We start with Studio Intros, Then Movie Quotes, Then Sound effects and ending with Movie outro music. Play at home. ( I mean what else have you got to do, Right???) There maybe a few quotes with naughty words. so watch out. Stay Safe, And Enjoy. xx Podrants xx Dont Copyright us movie industry. we credit you all.

Functional Naturopath Dan Sipple is back on the show with Mason today to discuss the intricaces of gut health. The pair explore the methods you can use to optimise your health and build a rocking microbiome.  "You're the custodian of your microbiome. Look after it, learn how to nurture it, learn what affects it.. You want to pass that on to your kiddies. So do right by it and live long and prosper." Dan Sipple (inspired by Dr. Jason Hawrelak) Mason and Dan discuss: The origins of your personal gut bacteria and the critical life stages in which your microbiome is influenced. Gut health and pregnancy preparation. What to look out for when purchasing a probiotic supplement. Preboitics and botanical dietary variation as long term strategies for sustainable microbiome health. The lifestyle factors that damage health. The danger of restrictive diets, particularly those deficient in dietary fibre. The types of prebiotic fibre and what foods contain them (see resource section below for specifics) The benefits of short chain fatty acids (SCFA's) such as butyrate. The pros and cons of fermented foods. Soluble and insoluble fibre. How to create a gut friendly plate. Colonics and enemas. The various microbiomes within the body as a whole e.g. the scalp, the mouth, skin etc. Essential oils and the disastrous antimicrobial action they can have on the microbiome.   Who is Dan Sipple? Dan is a also known as The Functional Naturopath who uses cutting-edge evidence-based medicine. Experienced in modalities such as herbal nutritional medicine, with a strong focus on environmental health and longevity, Dan has a wealth of knowledge in root-dysfunction health.    Resources: Dan Website Dan Instagram   Gut Health Podcast 1 Gut Health Podcast 2 Candida And Medicinal Mushrooms Podcast  Vaginal Steaming Podcast Microbia Lab Testing Missing Microbes Book Prebiotic Foods: Inulin/Fructooligosaccharides (FOS) – asparagus, dandelion, onion, garlic, leek , chicory, burdock, artichoke. Galactooligosaccharides (GOS) – legumes, beans, beets, lentils, etc. Pectin - apples, bananas, potatoes, berries. Resistant Starch - green bananas, cooked cooled potatoes, plantains, sorghum, sweet potatoes.  Polyphenols - the skins of dark fruits/veg best e.g. pomegranate, blackberries etc. Partially Hydrolyzed Guar Gum (PHGG). Polysaccharides/beta glucans - medicinal mushrooms, oats etc Strain Specific Probiotics - What Strain For What Condition:   Leaky Gut/Strengthing The Ingregrity Of Gut Lining Saccharomyces boularrdii Lactobacillus rhamnonsus GG Lactobacillus reuteri DSM 1224 Bifidobacterium longum BB536   Establishing A Healthy Microbiome - Mums and Bubs Lactobacillus rhamnosus GG Bifidobacterium breve M-16v Bifidobacterium longum BB536 Bifidobacterium animalis BB-12 Maintaining General Gut Health - Kids and Adults L.rhamnosus LGG Lactobacillus acidophilus NCFM Bifidobacterium lactis Bi-07 Lactobacillus rhamnosus HN001 Bifidobacterium animalis ssp. lactis HN019 Rebuilding Microbiome Post Antibiotics Bifidobacterium animalis ssp. lactis BB-12 Lactobacillus rhamnosus GG Saccharomyces cerevisiae (boulardii) (SB) Allergies / Autoimmunity Lactobacillus rhamnosus GG Lactobacillus paracasei LP33 Poor Immunity / Recurrent infections Lactobacillus rhamnosus GG Lactobacillus acidophilus NCFM Bifidobacterium lactis Bi-07 Lactobacillus plantarum HEAL9 Lactobacillus paracasei 8700:2 Lactobacillus fermentum CECT5716 Lactobacillus reuteri DSM 17938 IBS Lactobacillus plantarum 299V   Candida / Dysbiosis Saccharomyces cerevisiae (boulardii) (SB) Bifidobacterium lactis Bi-07   Metabolic health/Weight Loss Bifidobacterium animalis spp. lactis B420 Bifidobacterium animalis ssp. lactis HN019   Q: How Can I Support The SuperFeast Podcast?   A: Tell all your friends and family and share online! We’d also love it if you could subscribe and review this podcast on iTunes. Or  check us out on Stitcher :)! Plus  we're on Spotify!   Check Out The Transcript Here:   Mason:   (00:01) Hey everybody, welcoming SuperFeast podcast, favourite special friend Dan Sipple. Hey man.   Dan Sipple:   (00:09) Hi buddy. How you doing?   Mason:  (00:10) Yeah, really good. Really stoked to be having this conversation with you. It's been a little bit since we've had a podcast. You guys are cooking a baby? You know that happend since...   Dan Sipple:  (00:20) It's been a while.   Mason:  (00:21) Since our last chat. Yeah, that makes it a long while. Maybe we didn't realise you're in the early stages of baking.   Dan Sipple:  (00:27) Yeah baking again. It's good. It's nice and timely but with a good microbiome rehash because it's all so fresh in the mind.   Mason:  (00:36) Yeah. Sweet. So guys, we get a lot of people asking around gut health and Dan and I did a two part like a mega dive into gut health. We'll put the links to that in the show notes. We also did a real good conversation with Sage around candida and fungal infection, which crossed over a lot with a lot of big gut information and seemed like the missing piece was coming out of the FAQ we get around.   Mason:  (01:07) Which probiotic should I be taking? Should I be doing sauerkrauts and fermented foods? What's the best diet to support a microbiome, so on and so forth. And Dan and I got jamming about it a little bit when we realised we had a pretty mega podcasts that we could probably hash out. And so that's what we want to talk about.   Mason:  (01:23) We want to dance around the microbiome, the clinical setting of getting your gut health back into balance. What does that look like? And then what does that look like after the clinical setting, clinical probiotics perhaps. Diets and extreme diets and how they cross over into being for and against a long term strong microbiome, and when it's time to cruise over into more of a lifestyle diet, that's generally going to support many areas of the body, like our cellular metabolism and various organs.   Mason:  (01:58) But as well as that a microbiome and see some of the pitfalls that can come about when we over identify and go a little bit too long in a diet that's a little bit extreme. So yeah, I'm really looking forward to it because it's brought it up for me as well. Just like, all right, what's my long, because I think I'm doing really well in myself to not be overly identified with a dietary system. It's taken a lot for me over the years and just really just setting in, nestling into the home and the home cooking vibe and just making sure I've got all my little principles and while maintaining my particular healthy foods that I like, romance in the kitchen, creating a diet, which I think is going to be sustainable over decades and decades, but what are those little principles and distinctions to ensure that I'm really rocking my microbiome as I go along. But it doesn't need to be an extremism in doing one thing or another. So, yeah, any thoughts for you going into this podcast in the beginning before we dive into the first topic?   Dan Sipple:  (03:09) I think it'd just be a good opportunity, like you say, just to really look at it over the course of a lifestyle as we spoke about designing a lifestyle that supports a healthy microbiome from basically mum's gut health from our infancy as kids and then right through the teenage years and early adulthood and into the older years and having a longevity plan because there's definitely challenging time periods I feel like throughout the course of a human's life where for instance, like mode of birth, that's one of the biggest ones, whether the baby is a C-section or a natural birth.   Dan Sipple:  (03:51) And then as the immune system is developing in childhood, all that exposure to different microbes and lots of chance to pick up different bugs and whatnot. So, the chances of going on things as a child like antibiotics from say two years of age to eight years of age is another critical point. And then I feel like again, in the teenage years when people tend to throw caution to the wind and really tests their microbiome. Test their gut barrier function. The insults that get thrown at it, that's another critical time point that I guess as a clinician you see those patterns emerge quite often in people's stories. It's like you'd be doing a case history with someone. First question I usually lead with and all my patients will know this is birth mode.   Dan Sipple:  (04:40) How are we birthed? Was it a C-section, was it natural? What was mum's health like? Does mum have gut issues, et cetera. And the reason we ask around that is because every human's microbiome on the planet is their mum's. That's how it gets passed down. And essentially if you're vaginally birth, then you're seeded through that process. That's where your microbiome in your gut is seeded for life. So that's very, very critical. Hence why with birth modes that differ to that. So C-section for example, which is medically necessary in a lot of cases, don't get me wrong, but that can be a very initiating disturbance to long term gut issues or long term risk in terms of inflammatory conditions.   Dan Sipple:  (05:28) So in a nutshell, vaginal birth, lower risk of inflammatory conditions, gut conditions, skin conditions, et cetera, C-section higher risk. And then that flows over to whether you're bottle fed or breastfed. Same deal.   Dan Sipple:  (05:45) So yeah, going back to what I was saying, the infancy period, the teenage period. I feel like once you're in adulthood and life slows down a little bit, that's probably less... There's always going to be exceptions to the rule but there's probably less risk factors there. But it's generally speaking, anytime there's those big quantum leaps in development I reckon, you might want to be mindful.   Mason:  (06:09) They create little forks in the road and you can go down a particular trajectory with your health, and as you said, teenage years, it's when you are there to test yourself. You've got a lot of Jing and Kidney Essence in the system. But sometimes we don't have a conversation in our culture about just how far past the barrier we go a lot of the time. And respecting that you really... It's not a moral conversation. I don't have to feel bad and we can always do what we can to get back into balance. But it's very hard to heal something when we've gone into a real extreme. We've really tested ourselves too far and we've literally gone down a trajectory with our health from say that a critical period when we're teenagers. We've set ourselves down a path because we've tested too far.   Mason:  (06:54) The barrier in the gut's been, we've smashed through it, right? And therefore we are leaving ourselves susceptible to lowering the good bacteria and basically heading down an inflammatory. Just an Inferno. You just can't stop it. And it takes a lot to cool it at that point. So, all right, sweet.   Mason:  (07:16) So I like the fact that we've started off with that pregnancy preparation. So, although we start there and of course it's going to be the best to make sure that guts absolutely rocking in that preparation period, that everything that we're going to be talking about in this podcast is getting a little bit contributing to that conversation. What to do if you're preparing to get pregnant. And something we always say is regardless of your situation, you should be preparing to be as fertile as possible because that shows you've got fertile ground and you've got the JIng and the microbiome regardless of whether you're going to get pregnant.   Mason:  (07:52) So that's relevant for everyone. So that's going to come and then anything you want to say a little bit more about the birth mode and just the intricacies of a vaginal birth and how that can set you up for success bacterially?   Dan Sipple:  (08:04) Yeah, I think like you touched on preconception is a big one. So making sure mum's microbiome is as optimised as possible is always a great idea. And that concept is becoming really, really prominent and important. But like even 10 years ago, people just weren't necessarily having those conversations. But you talk to naturopaths that have been practising for 20 years and it's like they'll all tell you a lot of couples come in now for preconception. It's awesome.   Dan Sipple:  (08:36) I've got one couple down in Tilba. They're living off grid and doing so many good things to support the birth of the next baby. I remember a couple of weeks ago, I said, "How long have we got? Basically, when do you want to start trying?" And they were like, "Six months, nine months or something like that." I'm like, "Awesome. That's great. No pressure. We've got six months to do that." That's ample time versus when you see a patient who's had three or four miscarriages for example, and mum's 35 and she's under pressure.   Dan Sipple:  (09:10) So yeah, the longer the better. And that allows us to really, really look at the things that might be impacting that person's gut health. So for example, diet, environment, stress, medication, et cetera, et cetera. For the people that are interested, I always, as a clinician, love to see actually what bugs are in their gut and run a full microbiome assessment.   Mason:  (09:37) Who do you do that with these days?   Dan Sipple:  (09:40) I'm using microba which are an Australian based company up in Queensland and they're using technology called shotgun metagenomics, which is still DNA based assessments rather than culture.   Dan Sipple:  (09:53) We used to culture the stool years and years ago, but they worked out at some time point that you can only see about 30% of gut microbes using that culture. So the majority of even mainstream gastroenterologists are all in agreeance now that DNA testing is where it's at. That allows you to see, don't get me wrong, there's still bugs that come up that are unidentified, basically. We know they're there and we know what percentage of their in, but we just don't know what roles they play. But the science is catching up with them. So with this particular company, you'll get a section of the results say CAG 1456 or whatever it's like that means nothing. But if you check that in six months time, they'll probably know what that does. And I'll continually update the reports. That's really funky. It's cool.   Mason:  (10:38) Do you need to go through a clinician to get that test or is that available to the public as well?   Dan Sipple:  (10:43) Good question. I have a feeling it's available to all because I know that when you do order it and you log in to check your results, there's a general overview section, which is for the user. And then there's the practitioner section, which really dives deep into detail. So, yeah, I'm fairly certain that it's across the board for everyone.   Mason:  (11:03) Yeah sweet. So then getting to a vaginal birth, I feel like a lot of people are going to be, I've heard this. The mucosal lining through the whole vaginal canal is basically swabbing, seeding, all that bacterial complexity through the mouth, through the nose. Is there anything going on via, if there is a C- section, is there any recreating all of that? Is there-   Dan Sipple:  (11:35) Yeah.   Mason:  (11:35) ... enough going in through. There is? Through the vaginal canal? I mean of course it's all there?   Dan Sipple:  (11:40) Yeah, some still gets through. A small portion gets through. So, there is-   Mason:  (11:43) But I mean going and taking what's in the vaginal canal if possible. Even if there's a C-section and then running that along the orifices of the baby.   Dan Sipple:  (11:52) Ah, okay. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And that's what I always recommend patients to try for. Get a good doula who can advocate. In mainstream hospital settings, it's still looked upon as a bit on the fringe and a bit odd by mainstream practitioners, but absolutely. The name of that actual, escapes me at this time point. But yeah, essentially by swabbing that area and then applying it to bub's skin and orifices and that sort of thing, you do mitigate a lot of that loss. So yeah, absolutely. I'd definitely recommend that.   Mason:  (12:32) This might be a bit fringe, this is just like an experimental kind of thing. What's the benefit of that when we get a little bit older as well?   Dan Sipple:  (12:42) Yeah, yeah. We don't know.   Mason:  (12:46) I guess that's what they say when all those, the sexologist blogs came out about it being really good for guys going down on girls and so on and so forth and really advocating for it it's like a really healthy treat.   Dan Sipple:  (13:01) Yeah. I have no doubt that it's going to increase diversity of bugs, which is always a good thing. Just want to make sure-   Mason:  (13:08) There's no dysbiosis in the first place.   Dan Sipple:  (13:09) Exactly.   Mason:  (13:11) Yeah, yeah. There's a good podcast there about vaginal steaming in that and we'll put that in the show notes as well. Not making any claims but always a fun little conversation there. So, moving on from birth mode, we get to breastfeeding. I feel like this is one, if you find a crone in the medical system that's saying that there's no difference between bottle feeding and breastfeeding, I feel like even a majority of the institution will disagree, which is a really nice thing to see. Institutionalised dieticians are probably still the fossils that aren't going to... So just in case you come across someone that's like, "Look, there's no difference." Good red flag.   Dan Sipple:  (13:57) Massive red flag.   Mason:  (13:58) Yeah, red flag should be like out with you. So I mean naturally, breast milk is just loaded, right? Just loaded with immunological factors and bacteria.   Dan Sipple:  (14:09) Oh, to the thousandth degree. You cannot match what that contains and the spectrum of what they call HMOs. Human Milk Oligosaccharides, prebiotics essentially. They are trying now of course to start trying to mimic and throw into formulas to add some prebiotic action in there. Which you know-   Mason:  (14:31) It's not a bad thing.   Dan Sipple:  (14:32) It's not a bad thing. Of course. That's right.   Mason:  (14:34) Because there's instances where we know it's not possible. Milk dries up, so on and so forth. You might as well make the best of an unfortunate situation.   Dan Sipple:  (14:45) Yeah, that's right.   Mason:  (14:46) Especially if there's no, is it wet nurse, especially if you can't get access to a wet nurse,, which is very difficult in this current setting.   Dan Sipple:  (14:55) Exactly. Exactly. And then of course there's things a mum can do dietarily to help influence the composition of the breastfeeding mum's that is to improve, flow and the composition of that breast milk such as pre and probiotics, which are beneficial particularly for babies that are young and they might have, say for example a baby that is birthed vaginally and is getting breastfed but for whatever reason picked up an infection and had to have antibiotics in the first week of life.   Dan Sipple:  (15:25) The good thing is that whilst you might not necessarily be able to get a capsule down that baby's throat, a mum can take a probiotic capsule or prebiotic capsule or powder or whatever and you'll get maternal transfer essentially through that milk.   Mason:  (15:40) We're going to go through and talk about all the different prebiotics and probiotics. Dietary and supplement based that you can be using if that's the question. Because it is always that question which probiotic do I take and which prebiotic do I take?   Mason:  (15:55) And I guess there's a sliding scale between all right, is there something clinically that we're actually trying to do to counter a dysbiosis or an infection? Or are we just trying to upkeep for general, the mum might be perfectly fine and just want to make sure that the breast milk is absolutely optimised. So we'll go down that wrung. And along that sliding scale and I guess in that instance it's going to fall more again into the diet, more of a general throw a wide net supplementation if they want to do it for pre and pros. So we'll just say anyone's listening in going, just tell me which one to take it if I'm in that situation. That's coming. So anything else you need to say on that?   Dan Sipple:  (16:35) I just wanted to add there to your point that yeah, I really want to just get the message across that probiotics are just probiotics and we'll talk about strain specificity and stuff like that. But I think it really pays to see a clinician that knows what they're doing with particular strains. And so for anyone who doesn't know what I'm talking about with the probiotic, you've got a genus a species and then a strain.   Dan Sipple:  (17:01) So take lactobacillus acidophilus for example. Lactobacillus is the genus, acidophilus is the species, and then what comes after that, which isn't always written on probiotic labels, actually carries all the weight. So that's your first red flag. If you're taking a probiotic or you're thinking about taking probiotics, you're looking at different products and whatnot, and then not mentioning that third component, you're just seeing the first two words essentially, that's a bit of a red flag because two strains within the same species can have completely different actions.   Dan Sipple:  (17:35) And a good example there is like E. coli. So Escherichia coli, Nissle 1917, the strain, great for colitis and a whole range of conditions. Escherichia coli in another strain can cause watery, bloody diarrhoea and make you really sick. So strain absolutely matters. I think there's a lot of companies out there that will probably skimp on that a little bit. And might be paying for inferior strains and then extrapolating research that's been done on good strains. And when you look at a label, unless the strain is written down there, you don't know what you're getting.   Mason:  (18:13) How's it going to be written? So is it going to be in a third in bracket, they're going to say what the actual strain is after the bacteria?   Dan Sipple:  (18:19) Exactly. Exactly. So a common one. Lactobacillus rhamnosus GG. So GG, that's the strain. That's the one with the research. If you pick up a product and it says Lactobacillus rhamnosus and nothing else after that, red flag. Yeah.   Mason:  (18:34) So in that instance you want to be able to talk to the... I'm sure maybe you can get a good health food store owner that's really onboard and has naturopathic skills or something like that or then if not, you can go to the actual company and start asking them what their actual strains are.   Dan Sipple:  (18:50) Yes, yes.   Mason:  (18:51) And is that the difference between you go for one that's actually super specific and you know for you particularly from all the research and just how you feel you want particular strains. Therefore you have a particular company that you don't like to buy your probiotic supplementation from because if you are not really... Look, I don't really mind, I just want lots of different strains in this. A bit more like a wild fermentation going on, where rather than just them buying a specific cheap strain of bacteria and putting that in versus them going, "Look, there's a huge variety of bacteria and strains that are going in." but I guess that's going to be then determined by what starter they are they're using in their fermentation process.   Mason:  (19:36) Is there validity of going, "Right. I don't want that specificity, but I want something that's a more of a wild ferment, but I want it supplemented I don't want to be having that in fermented foods as much. Can't rely on it."   Dan Sipple:  (19:50) Yeah, so if I'm honest, it is a little bit of a myth that taking a multi-strain probiotic is going to confer more health benefits. People seem to, I guess have a bit of a, what am I trying to say here? When someone looks at a strain that is just literally a unique strain in a probiotic, I think there's a potential for some people to think that that does very little when that couldn't be further from the truth. Sometimes literally just one strain can have extremely pivotal actions and benefits in the gut.   Dan Sipple:  (20:26) So more isn't always better. Having said that, you do want to make sure that if you are just doing one single strain that the number of colony forming units does meet the minimum requirement. But yeah, back to your point, I would get nervous of any company that isn't writing any of the strains down.   Dan Sipple:  (20:45) And then if you get in touch with and they're cagey about that information, that's another sure sign. And that happens all the time. Using a company like Metagenics, I use a few different companies and clinic here, but Metagenics are a good example of a company that do list the strain always and they've only got a handful of strains that they use probably around 10 or 12 at the most. And within that range they've got maybe eight or nine different types of probiotics. And so some contain two or three strains only, one of their multi strains is only five strains. And then they've got some just single rockstar strains with really good research. So yeah, more species, not necessarily better.   Mason:  (21:27) [crosstalk 00:21:28].   Dan Sipple:  (21:29) Yeah, go on, sorry.   Mason:  (21:31) I was going to say they're all refrigerated, are they?   Dan Sipple:  (21:35) Yeah, yeah. You can get shelf stable probiotics and again, you just want to make sure that the strains listed in that strain has good evidence, but there's no issue around if a probiotic is shelf stable, that it's any less beneficial.   Mason:  (21:53) Is Metagenics... They're available to the public. Right, I'm not crazy?   Dan Sipple:  (21:55) No, it is a practitioner only.   Mason:  (21:58) It is a practitioner only?   Dan Sipple:  (21:59) Yeah.   Mason:  (22:00) All right. It's really alluding me what those...   Mason:  (22:03) It's really eluding me that practitioner quality that I'm seeing when I go into the health food stores. I'll have to check it out because there's a few that I've had some good results with that have been available to the public. I'll have to check it out. And I'm sure everyone listening, I'm sure has gone about and they have their fav's, but it's a good little basis to make sure that they were actually able to get the species specific when we're looking at the [crosstalk 00:22:25]   Dan Sipple:  (22:25) Well that's it. And I should say too that there is definitely brands, over the counter brands, non practitioner brands that are very efficacious and that do list their strains down for sure. Yeah.   Mason:  (22:40) Are you taking one preventatively yourself?   Dan Sipple:  (22:45) Look, when everything is in good shape, I tend to just focus on prebiotics and dietary diversity. So I think that needs to be the core thing that people focus on always. So generally speaking, the more diversity in your diet of plant species, so aiming for 40 to 60 different plants species a week, exposes your microbiome to various different shapes and sizes of fibre, mucilage, pectin, polyphenols, et cetera, which then grows the diversity of our microbiome. So you want a very rich microbiome in terms of species diversity. That's correlated with better health outcomes versus, like we touched on earlier, starting life with the C-section. Unfortunately, you're going to start life with a very dwindled down, poor diversity of microbes, which can be improved, of course, but yeah. So as I say, the core thing I want people to focus on is getting everything from their diet because probiotics; although, they're great.   Dan Sipple:  (23:45) I use them every day in clinical practice. They don't permanently colonise. Still, a lot of people I find are under that kind of idea, I think from the blogosphere basically and yeah, it's a bit of a myth that one. Some of the probiotics do hang around longer than others, two to three weeks. And in others only three or four days. They will always confer a positive action when they go through, such as modulating the immune system, compete for space or out-compete pathobionts and other pathogens along the gut wall, down regulate inflammation, et cetera. So they'll always do those sorts of things, but they don't permanently colonise whereas if you use prebiotics that is fertiliser for your own probiotics. The ones you were born with. So the better long-term strategy I find is to grow them.   Mason:  (24:31) You're talking about a drifter or a bit of a nomad that's still good. It has great intentions. They're coming along. They're contributing a little bit, but they're not the ones that are actually going to consistently be coming back and being the custodian of the land, setting up a little bit of a civilization in [crosstalk 00:24:48] alignment with the rest of the body that's thinking it will be continuing to pour back resources into the environment and just set up shop.   Dan Sipple:  (24:56) Good analogy.   Mason:  (24:59) I did. I try. I'm feeling it. I need that. It feels nice for me going into that imagining of that reality helps me get out of my head a little bit with it and get into my Heart and that will leave my lower dantian to feel what's going on.   Mason:  (25:17) I feel that storytelling is always what's necessary for me to go from a short term outcomes mentality to really making sure that when I'm 80 and 90 years old that I've had a real serious trot building this. People talk about creating a legacy in business and yet that external projection, which is noble and good, but that external projection of wanting to create a legacy out here in the world. Often, you know that it's going to be unsustainable or an element of martyrdom if that takes away from your capacity to create a legacy through your microbiome internally.   Dan Sipple:  (25:59) Yeah.   Mason:  (25:59) Yeah. I've got a little skit that I'm brewing called Bacterial Master Chef and I'd always think about you really prepare and I don't know if we've talked about it before, that legacy that microbiome that you've developed such a supple, beautiful environment. Eventually, you're going to be passing that down through your kids and through your offspring as well.   Mason:  (26:26) Through the sperm health is going to be directly correlated. I assume through what's going on in the microbiome and then you've got a healthy microbiome and that's really creating this solid rooting within your own household. And then just via whether its physical transfer or whether it's just transfer of your habitual internal development of that beautiful complex ecosystem that's an old growth forest. Those habits that are leading to that are going to be passed down through your own personal culture to your kids, through your friends, everyone around you and far out. That's a legacy. And then I feel like you're also preparing yourself for when you go back. Your body goes back to the earth. You're serving up that bacteria in your body in that.. Go to the Master chef kitchen and when it's all done and dusted and your bacteria reflecting with the judges of other bacteria in the world of how [crosstalk 00:27:21] that human body was prepared and it was off its back. You want to really win that contest.   Dan Sipple:  (27:27) Yeah. Yeah. And my mentor, Dr. Jason Hawrelak down in Tasmania says pretty much just that, we are custodians of our microbiome. You got to really think of that in that context and it's up to us to nurture it and protect it because it does get passed down. And what are we now, four or five generations or more antibiotics. So with each generation that pool of diversity is dwindling, if anyone gets a chance to read Missing Microbes. Really good book. It talks all about that.   Mason:  (28:00) It's like a sourdough starter. It gets passed down from generation. For me, you just feel what lights up internally. I went to a pizza joint right in Aguascalientes at the base of Machu Picchu and they had a 300 year old starter, sourdough starter for their pizzas or something like that and they had a three day ferment process for their pizzas and there's something kind of like lights up internally and you get out of that upper dantian of the head and I really got me into my Heart and the romance, something sprung up and it brings up more of a song and dance to the food and to life and that's the same internally just as who you are. You can really create some proud family tradition and something that lights you up internally by seeing that you do have something precious like a starter that gets passed down from generation to generation.   Mason:  (29:12) Missing Microbes. All right, that's a book we've got to get. So, I'm sure everyone knows that you've heard it to death things that are going to alter and damage microbiome, intestinal epithelial barrier and all that.   Dan Sipple:  (29:26) Yeah and it's a good, nice bridge to talk about how the leaky gut thing interfaces with the microbiome. So essentially, that's just the protective mucosal, thick jelly like layer that just coats the whole digestive tract. The intestinal barrier really just being our protective layer against the outside wall and then between our bloodstream. People have to think about it like that from mouth to backside, it's a hollow tube. It's still technically outside your body. So you want to make sure that the integrity and the quality of that lumen is tip-top. So, essentially the microbes throughout that entire tract do hang out in that mucosal lining and you've got about five different layers from outer to inner that comprise that and so you've got the mucosal layer and then I think by memory the last layer is the immune layer where all the immune phagocytes and interleukins and they do their dance there.   Mason:  (30:32) Hmm, [crosstalk 00:30:33] but that were like the macrophage, like the gut-associated lymph tissue almost.   Dan Sipple:  (30:37) GALT and yes, lymph tissue and whatnot.   Mason:  (30:40) It's why the macrophages as well are sitting there with their receptors waiting for the beta glucans from the mushies.   Dan Sipple:  (30:47) Exactly. You have the TLRs, the toll-like receptors waiting to get turned on, which we'll go into, but I've lost my train of thought.   Mason:  (30:54) Well, we were talking about that mucosal lining there being something pressured that's sitting on that skin of the gut, the epithelial barrier and so that's got a lot to do with protecting against leaky gut. Right and therefore, degenerating the physical structure that ensures that we have the potential to grow and maintain a microbiome within that mucosal lining.   Dan Sipple:  (31:18) That's right. Yeah. So the things that damage it we were going to lead into, so antibiotics being the biggest one. Followed by probably, nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs. Proton pump inhibitors, which is a big one that is coming up hugely in the research at the mument in terms of antacids, basically or reflux and those sorts of conditions.   Mason:  (31:41) Are they going in because they're destroying directly the bacterial colony and therefore, the bacterial colony is what is maintaining and producing that healthy mucosal lining? Or is it destroying the actual mucus? Therefore, the bacteria don't have somewhere to live.   Dan Sipple:  (31:56) I think it would be both, but essentially it's down-regulating your acids and therefore, bacteria that you do ingest have an easier go. Basically, they get an easier pass at getting into that layer, so whereas your acids in the stomach, which precede the small and large intestine would normally take care of that. That's a free pass straight through because your acids are suppressed.   Mason:  (32:18) That's something I'd probably throw out there. This whole alkaline water thing. I know we've discussed it. You're on board with that as well. That's where I'll never get on board and a long-term alkaline water that there's maybe some validity, maybe and this is where all the data and the preaching around alkaline water comes from these short-term healing protocols, which you can see validity in extreme we're going to talk about ketogenic diets, short term ketogenic diet, right, maybe. Short term alkaline water ingesting for a healing protocol, maybe, but then when you get long-term, the antacids, the alkaline water are going to start, I assume. That's the pathway in the stomach that's going to contribute to the stripping of the microbiome.   Dan Sipple:  (33:00) I mean we could probably do a whole podcast just on that.   Mason:  (33:05) Oh, we should. All right, we'll I'll put that in there. We'll put that out there. We'll get Sage on as well and we'll talk about alkaline water. That'd be good.   Dan Sipple:  (33:15) So other than that we've got diet, alcohol, lack of fibre, lack of plants in the diet. Stress is a huge one. So stress and medications and alcohol probably the biggest, but yeah, essentially, I guess that's a good segway into what you and I have talked about briefly in the past on other shows is that diets that do overly emphasise protein and saturated fat and meat and that do become devoid of fibre, soluble fibre, specifically in different plant polyphenols. They happen to increase the growth of bacteria in the gut that degrade mucus, so they degrade that mucosal protective lining.   Dan Sipple:  (33:58) So let me just repeat that. When you're on those diets for too long. High protein, high fat without sufficient fibre to offset it. Different bugs in the gut use those as fuel. They proliferate, they start out crowding more protective types of species and they feed off mucus. So, they're going to start eating mucus in our gut and burrowing down through that layer and making that more cryptic and making that more accessible to the bloodstream and the immune system start invoking a proinflammatory response. I think people can can tell where I'm getting with that. So if that goes on for too long, then you are looking at a massive pro inflammatory response coming from the gut.   Mason:  (34:38) Yeah, I mean everyone can see that there's always Yin Yang and a pendulum swinging within the dietary system and so we've seen an excessive amount of industrial food over such a long time and therefore, we saw the cleansing, catabolic vegan diets, raw diets, no fat diets real void of animal proteins come into dominance. And then that went to extreme. Therefore, the universe and life will always balance itself out. The trick is not going back to the pendulum swinging too far and then we see that more of the high protein, the Atkins, ketogenesis, carnivore now, bulletproof diet being that balanced up and start really dominating what's been recommended out there in the blogosphere, so on and so forth. I think that's what you're talking about. Right?   Dan Sipple:  (35:32) Totally and like you said it, the pendulum can swing too far the other way. And you see that, I always say to patients, the microbes don't lie. When we look at the gut microbiome, we know what you've been eating. We can base what foods you've been eating by the look of where the bugs are at and we know what roles they play and what percentage they're representing in that person's microbiome. And so with that sort of dietary approach and I'm not against meat at all. I'm flexitarian as I like to say, but too much for too long without that fibre can lead to those dysbiotic changes and we're really starting to see saturated fat play a big role in increasing what are called pathobionts and these pathobionts produce something called lipopolysaccharide and I'll break all these terms down, but LPS, lipopolysaccharide, this is something that's on the outer shell of these gram-negative bacteria that when they get fed in sufficient amounts they produce more of and its absolute chaos for our immune system.   Dan Sipple:  (36:35) For whatever reason, our immune system just hates this lipopolysaccharide and launches really pro-inflammatory interleukins at them into interleukin 17 and interleukin 6 causes that pro-inflammatory response. So, to break that down, high fat, high protein, you're encouraging the growth of certain bugs in the gut that are more likely to produce these endotoxins.   Dan Sipple:  (36:58) The endotoxins are what damage the gut. So we used to think it was just like with leaky gut what I said before, just the medications and just the diet and just the stress and that sort of stuff, which cause the tight junctions to separate, but there's a whole new body of research which is really, really becoming super accepted right across the board about the actual bugs in the gut being responsible for all that too. Particularly, the ones that produce these endotoxins and these hydrogen sulphide gases and that's been connected to anything from gut issues themselves. Anything from Celiac to Crohn's, Ulcerative Colitis, Irritable Bowel Syndrome, all the way over to anxiety, depression, Parkinson's, Dementia because we think what can potentially happen down in that gut microbiome can also then be affected in the blood brain barrier and affect the blood brain barrier the same way because that in itself is a very similar set up with that epithelial lining which can get damaged.   Mason:  (37:57) Because the microbiome in itself.   Dan Sipple:  (37:58) Pretty much. Exactly.   Mason:  (38:00) Oh man. Alright, so let's just start breaking it down a little bit because I feel like this is where the boring over-identifying with diet and what macronutrients are defining who you are and defining your diet at all. It's something I know we've hit a lot. We definitely hit in the past, the boring nature of identifying on being like low fat and low protein from animal sources and then we've seen that busting of the bubble around the saturated fat is bad coming especially out of the institutionalised dietitians so we've busted that and so then it's like you see fat-fueled, hashtag fat-fueled coming up. Completely living off saturated fat because all of a sudden we've almost been given this free pass to go and eat those things and do those things that we enjoy, but yet then you start identifying with the macronutrient of my diet, saturated fat, fats.   Mason:  (39:11) That's my fuel and I only talk about this from personal experience because you're internally too boring to develop your own innate identity through who you are and your true nature is you have to go and look at your macronutrients in order to create an identity for yourself that you can therefore go out and create in a career and a brand or just a bit of personality so you have something to talk about and it is boring and I think that's what we're talking about here. Right and it's not going down a short route because you're interested in creating some balancing for yourself through the endocrine system. I know we've talked about ketogenesis for a short amount of time, whether it's through water fasting, which isn't a very easily accessible way to get to ketogenesis.   Mason:  (39:57) But you know, living off fats and ketones and bulletproofing or maybe you go down that route because you want to get your insulin receptors and your leptin receptors back to a point where they're quite healthy. You've got an intention and you go full bolt into that intention, but then what happens when you don't find a sweet spot and you over-identify. I think that's what we're talking about at all points here.   Mason:  (40:21) You've gone too far. You haven't realised that what goes up must come down and find a sweet spot that's sustainable for decades and so we're talking about, there's a sliding scale of the damage that you can do to yourself verse.. I know I've gone really down like that fat route for a while. It gets to a point where I can just feel sluggish and you want to talk about what we're actually going to physiologically feel. If we're rocking the fats too hard, we're creating too much bile. Therefore, we're going to be having to lead to those bacteria growing that are going to start eating more of that mucus. What are we feeling?   Dan Sipple:  (41:02) The things that I think of straight away from a gut perspective, oily stools so if you're wiping lots that's a pretty sure sign that your intake of fats is exceeding your gallbladder's attempt to up regulate bile to the point to where it's affecting your stool.   Mason:  (41:22) That's such a good little distinction then. Lots of wiping, too oily.   Dan Sipple:  (41:28) Totally and then the flow on from that, I guess if it is done in excess for too long, you're talking about brain fog, lethargy, just overall increased body inflammation because if we strip it back down it is going to increase our leaky gut. So then all the symptoms that you can expect to find in someone with a leaky gut, you can carry over to that. Brain fog, just general digestive disturbance, lots of gas, lots of odorous gases and always check the stool. Look at what the stool is doing. I think that's the biggest marker of whether a diet is working for you or working against you.   Mason:  (42:10) Okay. So it's basically about ensuring we're not consuming so much fat that we're creating an excess of bile. Basically creating a different [crosstalk 00:42:19]   Dan Sipple:  (42:19) The other one is nausea, which I forgot to mention too. Nausea is a classic sign of poor fat breakdown.   Mason:  (42:26) I can get into immediately, a lot of my fats I enjoy my tonic. Having a bit of grass fed butter is my fat and just due to all the fat solubles that I'm going to be able to get going in through there especially with such a focus on bone health and teeth health and a little bit of EMU oil is also a big favourite of mine, but I can feel if I go for that second tonic and I'm relying on a saturated fat and it's been a hard one for me to chew the fat on actually over the years is I do feel a little bit nauseous afterwards. It's very immediate for me and [crosstalk 00:43:04] I feel like...   Dan Sipple:  (43:04) It's saturated fats? Or do you find you would get that, say if you slay five avocados in a row as well.   Mason:  (43:11) Avocados. I used to have that same experience when I was a raw foodie and I was relying on the macadamia butter and the avocados to really sustain me through the day. I'd get to that feeling. I get to that point where I'd eat my salads and it'd be heaps of olive oil and heaps of avocados and say olives, but mainly that avocado factor that would kind of get in there. And I just said, I'd be feeling it. It's an oily, stagnant feeling and it's a good one to kind of get on top of because it's not like that's a bad thing to feel. It's just that it's a good thing to be able to realise so you can, so I can adjust. I mean for me it's been an interesting one because I had so many years of so much roughage and so many plants, but I was having them in more of that raw form that it left a bit of a bad taste in my mouth to an extent.   Mason:  (44:03) I did enjoy needing to balance out and getting a little bit more of that animal fat and animal protein. And now I really feel that they're settling in to their sweet spot and their little place and I'm acknowledging that I'm going to have to be responsible enough and go be the custodian of my microbiome to find that sweet spot, where I'm actually going to be able to create some mumentum in the development of that ecosystem.   Dan Sipple:  (44:28) And that's the thing, man, like that's what's so good about testing is because when you do that and you can see where these guys are at and their percentages. There's ideal percentages and don't get me wrong, we don't know what the exact perfect microbiome looks like yet.   Mason:  (44:41) Well it probably doesn't exist. I mean, that's like [crosstalk 00:44:45]   Dan Sipple:  (44:45) That's right. It's the horses for courses. That's right, but we do have a pretty good idea based on databases of healthy donors where these healthy species are meant to fall within, and you can design your diet around that. That's what's awesome about doing the gut microbiome testing is that you are going to get particular foods which we know feed up Akkermansia muciniphila and Bifidobacterium and different species in the gut that do produce these amazing substances called butyrate and other short chain fatty acids. Butyrate. We should talk about that too actually.   Mason:  (45:20) Well, let's get into it. I just want to kind of end on the fact that it's excessiveness and finding sweet spots, so you can kind of set and forget things in your diet and you can get on to enjoying life and celebrating life and developing your virtuous nature without taking your health down a dysbiosis route that will sneak up on you over years. And it's nice to get out of the good and bad kind of aspect of foods and just find there's always, you know, with most indigenous diets of course we've got the extreme instances with like Eskimos that are just basically all blubber and protein.   Dan Sipple:  (45:51) Right.   Mason:  (45:52) And that's a particular like fringe instance. And I think we've chatted about it before being like there's a phase of adaptation for that microbiome to find its harmony. But when you look at generally in the middle of the bell curve, which is where most of us can kind of like aim for. If we want them, by all means go and explore the fringes, just don't project it onto others until you have generational data for yourself and currently. But it's mostly like all the successful indigenous cultures, blue zone cultures, there's like that appropriate amount of saturated fat, plant in some places, most of the time it's coming, from animals that appropriate amount of protein, a lot of plant diversity, soluble, insoluble, right? And fibre.   Dan Sipple:  (46:39) That's exactly where I try and now more so than ever shoot my patients long-term towards that Mediterranean diet in terms of the actual research, comparing different diets. Mediterranean diet always trumps the others still. And I think exactly what you said, just because it is such a flexible approach where you're just getting a bit of everything and you're getting so much diversity and polyphenols and you're still getting your saturated fats and your proteins and whatnot. It's just that you're not relying on the same basic five foods to get them in.   Mason:  (47:13) Yeah, I mean that's so huge. And I also want to trump people who take that example, whether it's blue zones and say they pretty much eat nothing animal and try and use it to justify their other extreme vegan diet. I'm not getting away with that today sonny, not on my watch. I mean it is finding that sweet spot and also almost creating that legacy with how in harmony your diet can be and I'm respectful of what works and what doesn't work man. So good. It's so rad. Hey everyone, don't be so boring that you need to overly identify with your macro nutrients. If you find yourself at that point, please don't go spurting all that self-righteousness over everyone else. Chickity check yourself before you wreck yourself, because you will brand yourself in a particular way. And then it denies you the fact of getting very real. And it also denies you with being curious because what you do when you identify externally with your diet, extreme diet, even if you're over identifying with like the name of the Mediterranean diet, whatever it is, it means that when you go about and try and get testing done on yourself and you're looking for generational data, it makes you biassed and it makes you go and search for justification.   Mason:  (48:34) You know, misery loves company and you want to create company and basically create data that justifies your position, which is very boring. It's very boring to be around. I know that I've talked about that for myself. I've found that blandness in myself and then I've had to kind of shut up for a couple of years and really just go about that nature of that route of building something for myself, which I feel is in harmony and let the cup floweth over through curious conversations like this. Not saying I'm doing it right. Just sharing my little path and my opinion.   Dan Sipple:  (49:10) Hmm. And being open-minded and flexible.   Mason:  (49:13) Being open-minded and flexible. Hey, so did you want to go and break down any of those terms anymore? Do you feel like you've, you know, the lipopolysaccharide and that, I mean, I feel like we've dived into that, but just even going further down into diet and some of your faves, the places you're kind of like looking at to make sure that you've got like a wide variety of prebiotics getting in there?   Dan Sipple:  (49:39) Yeah, good point. Yeah. So I guess just to sort of preface by saying that old concept of fibre is fibre is nonsense and it comes in all different shapes and sizes.   Mason:  (49:52) You mean like have your bowl of all bran in the morning and your sweet?   Dan Sipple:  (49:55) Yeah, that's exactly what I mean. Yeah. Very dietician, very old hat, 80's, 90's mentality. There's soluble-   Mason:  (50:03) Dieticians are getting a flogging this podcast.   Dan Sipple:  (50:07) Well they will, unless they're willing to adapt to the research. You know?   Mason:  (50:12) I'll say there's a couple of dietitians out there I like and they're adaptive, but gosh, not many. Nope, not many. I've got a chip on my shoulder from when I had to butt heads with the dieticians that were trying to tell when my mum had her aneurysm, like nearly 10 years ago now, nine years ago.   Dan Sipple:  (50:32) Custard. Wasn't a custard.   Mason:  (50:33) Yeah, it was custard. They were basically, they were just ripping it to me about trying to go against the grain of their recommendations, giving her the golden circle orange juice.   Dan Sipple:  (50:43) [crosstalk 00:50:43] brain.   Mason:  (50:44) Yeah. Literally when it was literally custard, stock standard, golden circle, sugar infused, synthetic vitamin infused juices, which were just going to be putting in pressure through refined sugar on her system. Ra-ra. And I sat there with like the head of dietetics in the Royal North Shore. My mum's dietician and then a student, this like ratty little student right out of the institutionalised dogma, who was just trying to have a go at me because she thought I didn't know a thing or two. And then I just let her have it and ripped her into the biological healing process of the brain inflammatory processes, so on and so forth.   Mason:  (51:27) And I was like, I'm feel really beautifully smug about, because I was so highly charged and so traumatised and going through so much grief at that time and during those times I think for someone like that to not have tact and be projecting onto the stupid son who's just distraught and not being able to have a conversation because you're so rigid. I'm like that's where my chip on my shoulder of dieticians comes from. And yeah, as you said, I've changed my opinion and adapted so much over the years and when someone else doesn't have the capacity to do that, I'm just like "Sorry. You have ejected yourself from the conversation of relevance. So you go, I don't want to talk to you right now." So yeah, take that dietitians.   Dan Sipple:  (52:20) Well said. Yeah. So prebiotics and the different shapes and sizes. So look, we've got these long chain sugars and fibres. Inulin is one of them. One of my favourites. We've got fructose oligosaccharides, or FOS, we've got galactooligosaccharides, GOS, and then there's-   Mason:  (52:42) Galactose. What's the probiotic as well that goes by like, maybe it's just galacticose or so something like in, in that, anyway, sorry, I'm thinking about some of the names of bacteria or over the years you hear and I'm just like, Oh wow [crosstalk 00:52:59]   Dan Sipple:  (53:01) The names aren't forgiving. They're horrendous.   Mason:  (53:04) Like galactose is great. I've always, where's the dietary source of...   Dan Sipple:  (53:13) Galactose?   Mason:  (53:13) Was it galactose, am I making it?   Dan Sipple:  (53:15) So we've got galacto-oligo-saccharides and it's abbreviated as GOS for short.   Mason:  (53:21) GOS. Yeah.   Dan Sipple:  (53:22) And you're going to find that in legumes and beans and lentils and beets and stuff. So in the Mediterranean diet, they're getting a lot of GOS.   Mason:  (53:30) Where are you at with beans and the presence of lectins and that? Beans being like a peasant food, something like grain that's not necessarily natural, it's going to go against like an indigenous diet kind of style of things. I feel like there's a nice middle ground there to talk about taking advantage of the access we do have to like agriculture and realisation that some of these like prebiotic rich foods are going to be good. Maybe again it's, maybe is it just like a little bit, you know, where are you at?   Dan Sipple:  (53:59) I always go back to the blue zones and I just think if you know, you can't just compare the legumes consumed 500-1000 years ago to what's being produced now and say they're the same. So it's going to come back to quality at the end of the day and if they're being soaked and sprouted and cooked properly, because the reality is all that nasty crap like phytates and oxalates and lectins and a lot of that gets removed when you do those things, versus when they're picked, canned and then you heat the can of soup up for 30 seconds or whatever, different story, that's when you're going to end up with more likely chance of bloating and gastrointestinal issues.   Mason:  (54:38) So you can say that it's like a kitchari is not going to be a kitchari, is a kitchari, is a kitchari, is a kitchari. You look at preparation and again you've got to put time and effort into these things. If you want to go the convenience model it really is when you're going to be eligible to be in that legume, bean and lentil eating kind of category, where you might be actually doing some detrimental stuff to yourself over the time, versus I mean an almost like the preparation that you do, which I know is hard for everyone but the preparation time and the sprouting and the soaking, it kind of almost like limits the amount that you're going to be able to be having naturally and therefore you're going to have more diversity, because it takes so much effort. Right? There's like magic just in, it's the same as like a flavour of the food is, of garlic is going to limit the amount of garlic a lot of the time that you're going to be able to take, or like the flavour of Reishi is going to affect how much you're actually going to be able to dose. And so to the preparation time of foods is going to affect how much you're actually going to be able to reasonably include your diet. Therefore,. it's going to put a natural cap and help you find the sweet spot.   Dan Sipple:  (55:50) Totally, totally. And look, it's slow going for some people. Quite often when we do a microbiome assessment, take John Smith who's been on a paleo or a carnivore diet or whatever it is, a diet that focuses on the removal of legumes and that sort of thing and has been quite meat heavy for quite some time, 99% of the time the bugs that feed off legumes and resistant starches and whatnot and produce these beneficial compounds for us like butyrate, that heal the gut and lower inflammation, they're starved. Sometimes they're extinct totally. And that's because they've had such an over reliance on other foods and they've been on such a restricted diet that these bugs just dwindle and dwindle because they're waiting to get fed.   Mason:  (56:37) And what is butyrate do for the barriers again?   Dan Sipple:  (56:43) Sure. So when you feed your gut these types of fibres, so GOS, FOS, inulin and resistant starch, et cetera, et cetera, you're feeding beneficial microbes in the gut that when they get fed in sufficient amounts, they produce this awesome compound called short chain fatty acids. And there's different types of short chain fatty acids. One of the major ones is butyrate, which is probably the most favoured because it does have such good healing benefits for blood brain barrier function, for lowering lipopolysaccharide, healing a damaged leaky gut wall and just lowering colonic inflammation and systemic inflammation. So you want as much butyrate as you can get. So you want to feed those bugs up, you want to give them the fuel from those foods so they can produce that for you.   Dan Sipple:  (57:26) And yeah, sometimes it's a real hard slug to get those bugs fed up again, because those foods have been out of that person's diet for a while, reintroducing them does cause issues and it is like going, so for instance, sometimes it's like, all right I want you to go to bulk health foods or whatever it is, grab yourself a bag of black beans, go home, soak them when you're ready on a day where your gut's okay and you know, pick a Saturday or whatever, usually a day you're not at work, get literally like half a palm size and cook them over a long period of time and just start there. And I want you to do that again in three days from then and then again in three days from then and just slowly, slowly build it up. And you know when they're able to handle appreciable amounts of that. Cool. Go on to lentils, do it with lentils now and you just build them up slowly and slow and slow. And sometimes it takes like literally months, but it's good when you can show them their microbiome again in six months and say now look at that guy now. He was almost extinct in the first report, look where he is now and look how much butyrate you're producing now.   Mason:  (58:31) And so you're saying do that because you're going to have to go through a process of being farty and having a bit of a reaction to it or what?   Dan Sipple:  (58:37) You're always going to get gas. Yeah. You're always going to get gas with legumes and lentils, it's normal. I always say to folks when you're producing really odorous stinky, ridiculous amounts of gas and you know it's wrong, that is 99% of the time protein putrefaction so that is actually more from high protein and lots of saturated fats. When you're getting lots of gas from plants you'll get gas definitely, but it's usually more volume and less odour.   Mason:  (59:08) Well you probably also kind of talk to the fact that that gaseousness, because I've kind of opened a little bit more up to legumes and lentils and beans based on this preparation model because I've had a bit of a problem with them and with the anti-nutrients for some time. So I'm kind of trying to find my balanced approach. And again, even with those, with artichokes and you know is a big one, we call them fartichokes.   Dan Sipple:  (59:35) Fartichokes. Yeah.   Mason:  (59:35) I think it's probably also just a good gauge for where the sweet spot in your diet is long-term as well. Right? Like if it's making you noticeably, if it affects your day because you're noticeably farty, it's even just like lower the dose and don't necessarily use it as a staple of a meal. Right?   Dan Sipple:  (59:52) Hundred percent. And that's sometimes where I'll go in with an actual supplement, like a stripped down, like galactooligosaccharides as a fibre powder and they start on literally a pinch in their water a day, because you're doing some feeding, but it's different than say having four tablespoons of black beans or lentils and you just do it super, super slow. Yeah.   Mason:  (01:00:16) Man. A lot to learnings and just going through my processes on these podcasts. But yeah, I think you're right. I think there is still the presence of these legumes and even grains in traditional diets. They're just prepared and the thing is they we're just limited by what was possible to forage and procure and so you just had a reasonable amount in the diet. It's just the fact that we can get such high amounts and such easy access to these things that we just blow it out of the water and create a sometimes an unnatural reliance and to be honest, sometimes we can, I know this is speculative, but we can build upon what we've learned from our ancestors and those generationally tested diets that are actually generationally tested and just I guess try and slowly potentiate it without the ego to think that we're like necessarily improving, just honing it in based on the availability we have of things.   Dan Sipple:  (01:01:22) Yeah. I always think about, it's kind of like make your diet about your microbiome. Don't make it about your Instagram profile.   Mason:  (01:01:31) So tough. I get so many followers no, I mean like I'm vibing man. I just haven't been talking about my diet for so long. I just feel like I haven't it a right to. Appreciate the journey for sure.   Dan Sipple:  (01:01:42) Do you get that a lot still Mase? Like people will say, what are you eating? What have you found works for you? What are your vibing at the moment?   Mason:

[00:01:12] So today I'm talking to Diana. Diana, where are you at in the world?[00:01:16] Diana: [00:01:16] I am in Austin, Texas.[00:01:18] dane: [00:01:18] So what's your big goal for the call today?[00:01:20] Diana: [00:01:20] My big goal is to get more clarity on my direction for 2020 and beyond.[00:01:24] dane: [00:01:24] And if you knew you couldn't fail, what would you do.[00:01:28] Diana: [00:01:28] Hosts the most badass retreats and events ever.[00:01:31] dane: [00:01:31] So what is there that you really need help with? That was pretty easy,[00:01:38] Diana: [00:01:38] right? I got a call done. I think it, it's really about figuring out the path forward, right? So like, I have this vision of hosting retreats. Locally, nationally, internationally, and having kind of like, I guess like tiered offerings. Right?[00:01:57] So there would be like monthly meetups, there'd be [00:02:00] bigger days.[00:02:01] dane: [00:02:01] Yeah. I'm going to explain a business lesson to you very briefly, and I'm going to have you retell me everything based on the new orientation that I give you. Okay. So very successful businesses, and I'm talking like extremely successful businesses, the ones that are like the envy.[00:02:16] I have three things very clear. Like crystal clear. Yeah, very clear customer. They have a very clear result defined the customer wants, and they have a very clear mechanism that gets the result. So this is the spine of a business customer result mechanism. Yeah. So what you were just doing as you were talking about the mechanism, which were your retreats, so clear customer, clear result, clear mechanism.[00:02:45] So let's switch. So who's your clear customer for these retreats?[00:02:51] Diana: [00:02:51] So my clear customer are the next level of seekers. The people who want to optimize their health and wellness, who want to connect in community. The people who are, you know, doing the personal development, doing the work. So mostly probably people in there, late twenties to mid forties[00:03:09] dane: [00:03:09] is it safe to say people very passionate about personal development?[00:03:14] Diana: [00:03:14] People? Very passionate about personal development.[00:03:16] dane: [00:03:16] Okay. That's clear. Yeah. People very passionate about personal, not people that have read Tony Robbins people. Very passionate. Right. They haven't just read like a book. Well, how do you get more clear on what kind of path? Like what very passionate means?[00:03:32] What do they typically done?[00:03:34] Diana: [00:03:34] Yeah, so there are people who've already read the books, right. Done that. And that was like maybe their entry level. How many got, how many books? I mean, I'd imagine they've read 10 plus books.[00:03:45] dane: [00:03:45] Okay. On what.[00:03:47] Diana: [00:03:47] On soft development.[00:03:49] dane: [00:03:49] What are some examples?[00:03:50] Diana: [00:03:50] So it'd be like maybe like a path with heart by Jack cornfield.[00:03:54] So like some spirituality components, like some of the, maybe you are a badass by [00:04:00] Jen Sincero. I really love Marie Forleo's. Everything is figure outable. So there would be like spiritual development, business development, and like relationship development. So maybe even they started old school, like how to win friends and influence people.[00:04:16] You know, like that might've been something that they read when they were a teenager or younger and then have just continued on. So stuff by, Oh my God, I can't believe I'm blanking on his name right now. The brain guy, what's his name?[00:04:29] dane: [00:04:29] Which one? Like this dispenser.[00:04:31] Diana: [00:04:31] It does then see, you knew exactly who I was talking about.[00:04:33] Dispenza. Yeah, exactly. Top of mind. So dispense maybe stuff by Bruce Lipton. Marianne Williamson, Bernie Brown. Kind of those like next level influencers?[00:04:46] dane: [00:04:46] What do you mean by next level?[00:04:47] Diana: [00:04:47] You know, I mean, there are people who are like on a particular platform, right? Like people would maybe consider like Kobe Bryan and influencer or like they would consider people who are making impacts in some realms, but I'm talking to people who like have global mission to have humanitarian efforts.[00:05:06] People who are usually doing like give back causes and stuff like that.[00:05:10] dane: [00:05:10] Okay. So now the first draft, you said my customer are next level type of personal development. So let me tell you what I'm hearing. We'll see if this is a clear customer, and imagine you're in a room full of 15 baller business dues.[00:05:26] They're all guys and they come to you and it's your turn to talk about your business. Now imagine you say we do retreats and this and this and this and this. Right? You just slipped into mechanism,[00:05:37] Diana: [00:05:37] right? Rookie, right. Cause that's not selling a vision. That's not talking about who it's for. There's, yeah.[00:05:43] dane: [00:05:43] And that's okay, but that's a rookie move and rookies not a bad thing. I'm not trying to mean it as a bad thing. I'm just saying it's like you haven't been trained. Right. So, okay, now it gets to you. For some reason, I'm wanting you to really picture, you're in a room with 15 baller business dues and you're in there.[00:05:58] Okay. Yeah. [00:06:00] Like are you in a high rise? Is there windows around? Tell me about the room.[00:06:04] Diana: [00:06:04] Yeah. I would think that it would be like a really. Nice setting. I wish had been to the Fairmont in Austin. It would be something like that. So like a rooftop patio is what I would envision outdoors. Yes. We're in Austin.[00:06:18] Everyone likes to be outside. The weather is perfect, you know, it's like not too hot, not too cold. People are wearing kind of business casual, so they're fancy, but they're not like suit and tie.[00:06:28] dane: [00:06:28] Great. Okay. So now you're in this environment and it's quiet enough where everybody can hear each other. And it comes to you.[00:06:34] And as they say, so Diana, tell us about your business. You say, well, our business, we target folks who are very passionate about personal development, who have global missions, who think globally. Who've read at least 10 books and the personal development realm, things like Bruce Lipton, things like Joe Dispenza, about 70% of our customer tends to be female, and then 30% of men who would probably identify as a little more sensitive than the average male.[00:06:58] Also, these are our customers. Does that capture it?[00:07:02] Diana: [00:07:02] Yeah. I feel like there's still a little bit of an explanation of like, okay, cause I mean, I know that our point is to get people to lean in more as like, what exactly are we doing? You know? Like I have this vision of creating these life changing and memorable experiences for people who are very passionate about personal.[00:07:18] dane: [00:07:18] We're part one clear customer. Now we're going to add in the clear result they want. So what's the clear result that these folks want?[00:07:26] Diana: [00:07:26] Transformation and recalibration. So it's like, not necessarily like, Oh, we're fixed and we need to be changed, but it's like we're always working on ourselves. We're always refining and we're ready to have those kinds of transformational experiences.[00:07:42] dane: [00:07:42] Is that the language that they use. Like they'll say, I want to buy a transformation.[00:07:47] Diana: [00:07:47] Well, so it's funny because there's a big shift right now, right? Like people are shifting out of like, well, I want to like change and I want to retreat and I want to reset, and they're shifting more into this. Like I want to [00:08:00] create, I want to collaborate, I want to transform.[00:08:03] I don't know if that's everywhere, but I know in Austin, those kinds of forbids are pretty popular and pretty common.[00:08:08] dane: [00:08:08] Okay, so here, listen to this as a clear result. People that want to create their missions around others and collaborate. Yeah. You see how it's very tangible. It's clear and transformation is kind of like, that's probably the bi-product.[00:08:23] Hmm. I mean, that offer gives me chills. What does it do for you?[00:08:28] Diana: [00:08:28] Yeah. I liked that. I'm writing it down, so it's like people that want to create their global missions through collaboration,[00:08:34] dane: [00:08:34] make sure you've put in there around others.[00:08:36] Diana: [00:08:36] Could it be for collaboration and community?[00:08:39] dane: [00:08:39] Well around others, through collaboration and community, but get around others in there.[00:08:44] Diana: [00:08:44] Can you tell me a little bit more about that?[00:08:46] dane: [00:08:46] The loneliness that people feel working on their missions. So if you have another way to articulate loneliness, because collaboration is somewhat hard to picture.[00:08:56] Diana: [00:08:56] Yeah.[00:08:57] dane: [00:08:57] What does that mean? You know? But when you say around others through collaboration, then I picture I'm around those in a room collaborating.[00:09:05] Diana: [00:09:05] Yeah. I don't know why there's something about like global missions around others. I don't know why that is not. There's something in my brain that it's not like I'm getting the point that you're saying that there's something that's not quite clicking for nice delivery.[00:09:19] dane: [00:09:19] Let's picture this. So picture you're sitting down in front of someone who's read Marie Forleo.[00:09:24] They've read Jensen, Sarah, and they've read Bruce Lipton. Yup. And let's say it's a woman and she's 27 and the result that she wants is what?[00:09:34] Diana: [00:09:34] The result that she wants. Well, yeah, I mean, connection is huge for sure. I think that you really touched on something with the loneliness of society right now.[00:09:42] People are really, really wanting to create deeper connections.[00:09:45] dane: [00:09:45] So imagine saying you could create your business and mission around others.[00:09:50] Diana: [00:09:50] Yeah, true. Community and collaboration.[00:09:52] dane: [00:09:52] Oh yeah. That's so good over here, but we want you to be congruent with it.[00:09:56] Diana: [00:09:56] Yeah. I guess now that I say it a couple more times, for some [00:10:00] reason it seems like it should be like with others or in community or something like that,[00:10:04] dane: [00:10:04] but.[00:10:04] If you'd like to get a free one on one with me and beyond this show, you can find out details@startfromzero.com slash podcast[00:10:15] Diana: [00:10:15] the result is creating a global mission around others through community and collaboration.[00:10:20] dane: [00:10:20] You know what's interesting, Diana, is it's really nice to be ordinary, especially with language.[00:10:29] You're going to be around people.[00:10:31] Diana: [00:10:31] Yeah.[00:10:31] dane: [00:10:31] You're going to be with people. Now, if you said create your mission around others. Who are slightly like on the fringe of crazy in terms of personal development and get to get and get to create your global mission with other people that are fanatic about personal development.[00:10:51] So now you have like the start of a Facebook ad, you have to start a letter and you've got your targeting all down. You're targeting women that like Marie Forleo, like Jensen, Sarah, like Bruce Lipton. Identify as entrepreneur. And now your ad targeting is all figured out. So now you got your Facebook ads running and your Facebook ad says, for those that are fanatic about personal development, how many things don't you say when you're talking to someone who isn't right?[00:11:15] And then for those of you fanatic about personal development. How would it feel to know that any book in any topic, in any road that you want to go down, the person will be excited when you bring it up. There's a special loneliness with those of us that are fanatic about personal development, and that's a very, very peculiar cut.[00:11:36] Of loneliness. So clear customer, clear result, create their global missions around others who are fanatic about personal development because they love growing. That's ordinary language, and then community and collaboration. For me, those are really heady words.[00:11:56] Diana: [00:11:56] Yeah.[00:11:56] dane: [00:11:56] So will it the ordinary, let yourself be [00:12:00] ordinary.[00:12:00] I had a friend of mine and he's this like men's coach and he's like, dude, the stuff that we do is like revolutionary. Like it transforms a man and like they're just never the same. And I was like, humor me for a second and try this. What we do is not very special. In fact, I imagine the Mayans did it 5,000 years ago.[00:12:20] You know what we do is very basic. Very simple. It's just what happens is the results are so profound. It makes it feel like magic, but ultimately what we're doing is really fundamentally simple stuff. You see how that's more ordinary?[00:12:34] Diana: [00:12:34] Yeah. I mean that really just like saying what we do is simple, really creates this power around it for people to relate[00:12:41] dane: [00:12:41] is humility too.[00:12:42] It's a lot of humility. It's like, you know, what we do is real basic and you know, I've got aspects of myself that identify as worthless, unconsciously, right? That's not who I am. Just these identities that things that identify and when those are unconscious and not noticed and not active. The stuff I do is the greatest thing in the world.[00:13:00] But then it's like my sense of value comes on and I get more present to it. It's like, you know, this stuff really means a lot to me and I'm just happy that it's basic.[00:13:08] Diana: [00:13:08] Yeah. I mean, and I think that the reach that you get doing something like that changes because you know, people, like you said, everything's like all this big transformation and this and that, and that kind of becomes diluted in a way where.[00:13:21] Everyone's like trying to sell the next big thing as opposed to saying, Hey, it's simple. It's like you don't need to be healed. The healing is within you. Like that concept of not trying to sell a problem or not trying to like make people feel broken and instead teaching them that you know, you are what you've been seeking the whole time.[00:13:38] dane: [00:13:38] You are what you've been seeking the whole time. So, I mean, if that was your outcome for your events, that people were able to leave and embody that and say that that's a cool outcome for an event. Now, it doesn't matter if you're three day, six day, five day, it doesn't matter if you're chanting or like you're clear on your outcome for the events if that's your outcome.[00:13:54] But you know, Jaco, maybe they leave with clarity of their global vision and blah, blah, blah, blah. But that's neither here nor there. That can sort [00:14:00] itself out and it will sort itself out when you have a clear customer and a clear result. So now let's go to back to this clear result. Create your global vision.[00:14:08] Around people that are fanatic with personal development, a group of people that are fanatic about personal development, creating their global missions together.[00:14:16] Diana: [00:14:16] Mmm.[00:14:19] dane: [00:14:19] So now you're just real basic and simple, and you know what? You're clear. And so people will respond and they'll probably come the ones that are right, and you might grow pretty big and you'll be letting ordinary words do the work for you.[00:14:35] Diana: [00:14:35] Is that personal development. They're global missions together,[00:14:40] dane: [00:14:40] and you might say, finding and creating their global missions together, and now you're like, do you know you have a global mission within you? You can feel it, but you don't know what it is. Do you know what your global mission is and you're just afraid to say it out loud.[00:14:51] We've got an experience that we'll call it forth. It's invite only. It's by application. We only let people in that are the perfect fit. If you're curious if you'd fit for this, we'll let you know apply here and then you can effectively turn people away. That would just kill the event.[00:15:08] Diana: [00:15:08] Right? There's always those people who you're like, Oh man, that was an energy suck.[00:15:13] dane: [00:15:13] Yeah, and that words you put in the ad too. The nice thing about these events is we filter every person, so no one's an energy suck. So now you've got your ad and you don't even have to worry about what the content of the retreat is. So tell me what you're thinking about.[00:15:26] Diana: [00:15:26] Yeah, I'm doing a little bit of writing on this.[00:15:29] Like we filter these events, so energy.[00:15:36] dane: [00:15:36] If you'd like to hang out with people reading the star from zero book, listening to the start from zero podcasts, listening to the book on tape and build businesses with them and do it with people together. Visit start from zero.com forward slash starters.[00:15:54] Diana: [00:15:54] Yeah. It's really interesting, like starting to kind of put this vision together because we're creating [00:16:00] already. We hosted a huge event this weekend. It was super, super successful. Everything just fell into place so easily. The event went off without a hitch. It was really incredible. And so now my team and I are talking about how do we move forward, like what do we create next?[00:16:15] How do we create structure. You know, and then like verbiage and branding and things like that are definitely top of mind. You know, like those things are top of mind of how do we create a delivery and a momentum around it. I think that probably I need to do some market research. Yeah. And like get some more of those words, you know, like create 10 or 15 questions and.[00:16:37] Create some of those words around like, you know, what are you looking for in your life right now? When you come to events like this, you know, what's your goal? What results would you like? Things like that. Just so we can get[00:16:47] dane: [00:16:47] well, how do you feel about only targeting people who feel they have global missions, whether they're looking forward or they found it.[00:16:54] Diana: [00:16:54] Well, that's the thing is like, I don't think it necessarily needs to be just a global mission. It's like people who have a mission in general, you know, ideally we want to encourage people to have a global mission, but I don't know if everyone necessarily would resonate on that level.[00:17:09] dane: [00:17:09] It depends on who do you want to work with.[00:17:11] Diana: [00:17:11] Yeah. I mean that is a hard question cause I also. I think that one of the things we've been talking about is helping people who don't even know they have a global mission yet.[00:17:21] dane: [00:17:21] Okay. That's clear. So you just throw out global, you know, we help people find and create their mission around people who are fanatic about personal development.[00:17:31] Diana: [00:17:31] I'm not[00:17:31] dane: [00:17:31] sure. Instead of global mission.[00:17:34] Diana: [00:17:34] It grew up with people who are personal development fanatics finding and creating their missions together. Yeah. I like that.[00:17:45] He just got fixed yesterday and I had my hot on it class for this, so he's just like, mom, pay attention to me. I'm like, dude. You know how this come,[00:17:56] dane: [00:17:56] what result does your dog want right now?[00:17:58] Diana: [00:17:58] He wants attention [00:18:00] and he wants to go to the park and he definitely wants this cone off of his head.[00:18:04] dane: [00:18:04] Can you feel how bad he wants the attention.[00:18:07] Diana: [00:18:07] Yeah, totally sweet guy.[00:18:10] dane: [00:18:10] Right? So can you tune that same energy to feeling how bad someone might want this result, what that result might be that might have a similar burn?[00:18:20] Diana: [00:18:20] It's people looking for something more to life. That's really big. Like people who have been searching for. Something more. I mean, we had people tell us that all weekend.[00:18:31] They're like, I've been looking for this. I've been trying to find this community. I've been trying to make these connections. I'm so glad you're doing this.[00:18:39] dane: [00:18:39] Something more. What does more mean?[00:18:41] Diana: [00:18:41] It means beyond where we're at now.[00:18:44] dane: [00:18:44] So are you looking for something beyond where you're at right now? Otherwise, if you say you're looking for something more, we've already heard that from landmark.[00:18:51] We've already heard that from so many people that. You might get away with it and you can easily find out by spending if you want our bucks on a Facebook ad. But you know, in terms of finding your clear customer and clear brand, we're close. And in terms of working with your team, if you make searching for your customer iterative instead of like definitive, then like that can be the discovery.[00:19:12] You know, the most dangerous word in business, and you have any ideas what that might be.[00:19:16] Diana: [00:19:16] Now[00:19:17] dane: [00:19:17] guessing,[00:19:21] guessing the customer. So, you know, interestingly thing like, you know, like we did this thing with, when I was doing music, when I was running ads anyway, you know, still expressing music or whatever. But when we were running ads, we ran a specific sort of advertising funnel. And we were able to identify that my cost to acquire a fan, a music fan was cheapest with Joshua rated listeners.[00:19:45] It was most expensive with ed Sheeran. Ah,[00:19:49] Diana: [00:19:49] wow.[00:19:50] dane: [00:19:50] Which is interesting cause I've had more people say, I sound like ed Sheeran than Joshua Raiden. Yeah. But you know as so big and global, and probably everybody's targeting it.[00:19:59] Diana: [00:19:59] Right.[00:20:00] [00:20:00] dane: [00:20:00] But my cost to acquire a fan was like. 75% cheaper. Wow. So I invested my resources in acquiring those fans.[00:20:10] Diana: [00:20:10] Yeah, sounds smart.[00:20:11] dane: [00:20:11] But we had like 10 or 15 art and Jack Johnson, ed Sheeran, Joshua Raiden, and I do actually, I deeply resonate with Joshua Raven's music.[00:20:20] Diana: [00:20:20] Right? But it's like, how would you have even known if you hadn't done that really valuable research to find out that those are the people who are most likely to.[00:20:30] dane: [00:20:30] Well for the cheapest cause I could get an insurance fan for a dollar 50 I could get a Joshua raving fan for 40 cents. Wow. So if you make searching for your customer iterative, then like you're like, Oh, this is why picking the customer so hard. Cause you know Dane hasn't told me this yet because you haven't learned this.[00:20:50] Like it's just that, I don't know why people say pick your target market, but I've never heard anybody say iterate your way to your target market. And that's really why. One of the many reasons why I think business can be so easy and fun is so the businesses that I've started where I am like, let's see what happens versus the businesses I start where I try and say what I want to happen.[00:21:11] The businesses that I start where I'm like, let's do this and see what happens. Work really, really well. The businesses that I try to like declare what they do. Who am I to say that? Because the Cardinal rule of successful entrepreneurship is that we don't get to decide what works.[00:21:27] Diana: [00:21:27] Yeah.[00:21:28] dane: [00:21:28] So with that, then we're like, okay, since we don't get to decide what works, we're not going to try to say what works.[00:21:32] We're going to find out. So now when you go to your team and you put together a system and be like, okay guys, we're going to put together five different retreat concepts as a promotion piece on Facebook, and we're going to target 12 different customer avatars, and we're going to create 10 different marketing messages.[00:21:49] We're going to spend $300 on each. So that'd be $3,600 if we did 12 and we're going to see what our most profitable demographic, profitable message [00:22:00] is to build our retreats with. Now you're a business.[00:22:03] Diana: [00:22:03] I mean, and that's really the goal, right? Is to create something that is super, super powerful.[00:22:10] dane: [00:22:10] You get to iterate your way there.[00:22:11] Yeah. And so then where's the risk in business? I'm so happy you're talking to me now as you're starting this, it's going to make a big difference.[00:22:19] Diana: [00:22:19] Yeah, it really is. I mean, that's gonna like set some groundwork for clarity for sure.[00:22:24] dane: [00:22:24] So tell me the three key spines of a business,[00:22:27] Diana: [00:22:27] clear customer, clear results and clear mechanism.[00:22:30] dane: [00:22:30] Hmm. You might want to throw ordinary language,[00:22:36] Diana: [00:22:36] right?[00:22:37] dane: [00:22:37] This is a struggle. Okay. Let me pull up something. I'll show you, for example, how I evolved. Okay. So this is a part of the podcast. So in terms of starting the podcast, I'm crazy excited about it. I'm super passionate. Everybody should listen. It's the greatest thing ever. You know all this crap. All right, so here's what I wrote for Roy.[00:22:52] One of my drafts, this podcast is for starting entrepreneurs, folks trying to create financial freedom while juggling families, marriages, kids, careers and bills. I bring guests on who are starting from scratch, and I showed them how to start making lots of money as new entrepreneurs. You can listen to the conversations and hear what I tell them.[00:23:09] We have 15 millionaire students and counting who followed the same lessons. Success is a pattern, and you'll get to see those patterns through each episode.[00:23:18] Diana: [00:23:18] It's[00:23:19] dane: [00:23:19] powerful. And you know, I like it. And as I was reading it, I was like, it's too many words. Cause I'm like, you know what, if an experienced entrepreneur listens to this and they got back to the basics, they can make lots of money by hearing this stuff.[00:23:32] Cause not many entrepreneurs are aligned on clear customer, clear result, clear mechanism when, when they are Holy crap. Right? So it's not just for starting entrepreneurs. And then, you know, it's not just for people juggling families, marriage, careers and bills. Cause you're not a starting entrepreneur.[00:23:45] You've had your own business for awhile. So I'm like really searching for this and I'm struggling to articulate. So here's what I ended up coming to. It's like two lines. Watch me mentor people and tell them how to make lots of money without [00:24:00] compromising who they are. Wow. We have over 15 million students in counting.[00:24:04] Wow. That's all it is now.[00:24:06] Diana: [00:24:06] Yeah. That's titrated down and precise yet broad. You know,[00:24:11] dane: [00:24:11] it took some work,[00:24:12] Diana: [00:24:12] I bet, because you had some really great verbiage in that first one, but yeah. How do you titrate down that message and make it[00:24:20] dane: [00:24:20] clear an ordinary. Yeah. Hey, lots of money without compromising who you are.[00:24:26] Cause you know, I had watched me mentor people and tell them how to make lots of money. I was like, that's awesome. I'd love it. I was like, wait, there's going to be some jaded people that don't really, I got to capture the folks that feel like they have to sell their soul to be successful. Yeah. So let me capture those.[00:24:40] Okay. Without compromising who they are and without compromising who they are. That's my most favorite part, cause it was the hardest thing to have to still down to like five words.[00:24:47] Diana: [00:24:47] Yeah. I really liked that because that applies to everyone and people feel like, Oh yeah, I can get this type of mentorship and still be me.[00:24:58] You know, like I've paid for business coaches that I've been into their boxes.[00:25:05] dane: [00:25:05] If you'd like to learn how to make money and you need a path to do it, visit start from zero.com and you'll see a whole context of how you can actually get started. There's a three phase process that you can go through. If you're a beginner, intermediate, or advanced, go there. It'll tell you exactly what to do, where to go, and how to get started, and you don't need money for some of the options.[00:25:27] And if you do have money, you can buy some of the other options. It's all laid out for you with crystal. Clear clarity@startfromzero.com where do you go and what do you do? You'll find out there,[00:25:42] Diana: [00:25:42] you know, and follow their ideals and like fit into who they are as opposed to it being who I am. Wow. That's[00:25:49] dane: [00:25:49] great. Well, yeah, it's a pleasure to serve you. It's a pleasure to feel listened to and heard and to feel like things are landing. So where are you at right now? What are you thinking about? What are your next steps?[00:26:00] [00:26:00] Diana: [00:26:00] Yeah, I mean, it's like, so how do I really like, now that I've got these concepts about, you know, a group of people who are personal development fanatics, finding, creating their missions together. Yeah. We're throwing around this idea of using true you. Cause that was our event was, you know, I'm like, I do not subscribe to the new year new you bullshit.[00:26:20] Like it's a new year. I am still me. Like, you know, I'm not compromising who I am just because it's a new year. And so we called it new year. True you. And true you has really stuck. So it's like, you know, you are the truth. You've been seeking and like I want to start figuring out ways to implement that into this kind of.[00:26:39] Simple, clear,[00:26:42] dane: [00:26:42] true. You could work for like a conference name is powerful, but that's like the mechanism name. Got it. Cause the result they want that people don't say, I want to be a true you. Right. They say[00:26:54] Diana: [00:26:54] a person development, they want the community, they want the[00:26:57] dane: [00:26:57] mission. I don't even know if people want personal development.[00:27:00] They might just want to feel better looking for the next person on development. Hi.[00:27:03] Diana: [00:27:03] Yeah. There is a lot of that. A lot of shelf help out there.[00:27:06] dane: [00:27:06] So like. I think what they would like is to be, you have to find out less lonely and around people that have the same language, they use[00:27:16] Diana: [00:27:16] people that get up.[00:27:16] dane: [00:27:16] So you have the people who are personal development fanatics working on their mission around each other.[00:27:21] And you might have that too. People who are personal development fanatics that feel like the odd ball out wherever they go. A place for us to get together and hang out. And you might actually find out that the thing they just want is connection.[00:27:35] Diana: [00:27:35] That's true. I mean, that I think is so far in all the events I've hosted what most people are really craving.[00:27:40] dane: [00:27:40] Yeah. So I think your next steps are probably realistically like, do you have to go fast with this or can you let it grow like a flower?[00:27:48] Diana: [00:27:48] Well, it's definitely going to be a blossoming experience, so we've created a goal on how to kind of move forward from here. We're going to start hosting a monthly meetups, [00:28:00] do another day long event in the spring.[00:28:04] And then likely we're going to call it like a little staycation or something like that because I just don't really lean into the retreat. It's like we're not retreating from anything. We're actually immersing ourselves and going inward. So our goal is to do one of those in the early summer.[00:28:16] dane: [00:28:16] How many people?[00:28:17] Diana: [00:28:17] We haven't made it that far yet. I would imagine our goal would probably be 50 people. Maybe last, maybe like 40 depending on how big of a center or a house we can find.[00:28:27] dane: [00:28:27] So yeah, if you start leasing like one ad every week or every two or three days and it's got a different demographic or has the same demographic, but it's a little bit of a different message.[00:28:36] But the funnel is essentially personal development, phonetics, working on their mission and or just coming together to just be in connection. And not everyone's invited cause there's no vampires kind of thing. And if you'd like to see if you're a good fit, not everybody is. We can schedule a call and chat.[00:28:53] And then you just talk to each person. Do you have a price for the event?[00:28:57] Diana: [00:28:57] Like I said, I mean, we literally just had our first event this last weekend, and so we did our de frag from that, and we have some planning meetings for the next week set up. Then we're kind of developing from there. Oh yeah. So we're, I mean, like I said, it's partnerships.[00:29:14] I really, we haven't even started any dev on that, on what it would be. I'd imagine our high would probably be in the five to 600 range. We might have some mid range tickets around, like, you know, three to four. And I don't know if we would go much different than that besides like having a couple of scholarship options and those would be scholarship or support.[00:29:33] So they would come in and they would support staff us and in that they would get the scholarship to be able to attend.[00:29:39] dane: [00:29:39] How would you feel the most recent event.[00:29:41] Diana: [00:29:41] Facebook and like networking, talking to people.[00:29:45] dane: [00:29:45] What do you mean by Facebook? What'd you do on[00:29:46] Diana: [00:29:46] Facebook? Like invited people on Facebook and then wrote to them and text message.[00:29:51] We didn't do any paid ads. We've put no money into marketing[00:29:54] dane: [00:29:54] and how many showed up?[00:29:55] Diana: [00:29:55] We had 30 people show up for the [00:30:00] mastermind and then we had another 50 people show up for the party. So we have party only option as well, which worked out really well.[00:30:07] dane: [00:30:07] How did you sell it? What result did you tell them to get?[00:30:10] Or how'd you talk about it that had them interested?[00:30:12] Diana: [00:30:12] Yeah, so besides, one thing we learned for sure was having like a schedule out way in advance. It was, you know, kind of what we're talking about now. Like, you know, it's the new year and what is your true, you could come out, we're not trying to change.[00:30:26] We're working on refining. I could look at our copy. It's like, imagine kicking off the new year with a group of 40 specially curated conscious leaders, visionaries and creators. At a beautiful mansion overlooking downtown Austin, connecting deeply with your future self, optimizing times past and aligned with what you're calling in as we embark on the first year of a new decade.[00:30:46] dane: [00:30:46] Connection with correctable and clarity and vision.[00:30:48] Diana: [00:30:48] Yep. You have a big vision for 2020 and none of us can do it alone.[00:30:53] dane: [00:30:53] So it's simple connection with people and clarity of vision. And that said really well. You know, the most famous Roman emperors are the ones that gave people food and fun.[00:31:03] Diana: [00:31:03] Yeah. Food and fun.[00:31:05] That's definitely what we did. Food fun.[00:31:08] dane: [00:31:08] And you know, that might be enough as well. Food and fun with personal development fanatics. No, I personally go to that. A low commitment night. So you could do food and fun with personal development fanatics. That's it. That's all you say. I'm like, I'm interested. I'm all drive.[00:31:22] I'll come as a free evening for a dinner. Or you just come to a dinner and then at the end of the dinner you say, Hey, if you guys like this, we're going to do this for three or four days in event this summer. And sometimes it takes while for the clarity of this stuff to emerge. But now if you were to run some pretty cool ads around the area.[00:31:39] And it was food and fun with personal development fanatics and you were to hold a free monthly dinner that people could come to. And at the middle of that dinner, you invite people either to some sort of monthly thing, weekly thing, live event. That's probably how I would run it. And then you don't even have to have people apply phone[00:31:57] Diana: [00:31:57] calls.[00:31:59] Yeah, I mean that's [00:32:00] definitely the own cause thing. That's like that extra followup was for sure one of our sticking points that was like, okay, this is a little bit of a challenge. She, you know, like following up with people and you know, like this bandwidth wise, that takes a lot. I mean, it still happened pretty authentically.[00:32:16] We had five more spots for our mastermind lasted, so that would have been nice to have those fall.[00:32:21] dane: [00:32:21] Good questions. Do you have,[00:32:22] Diana: [00:32:22] do you think that model seems pretty viable, like having three times a year, day long, one time of year, three day, and then three monthly meetups in between?[00:32:33] dane: [00:32:33] I hesitate to offer an opinion.[00:32:34] It doesn't seem like, no. I usually like to get my answers from the horses mouth. Like you don't want to ask your team that you don't want to ask your friends that the only person you want to ask that is the person that's attending your event.[00:32:48] Diana: [00:32:48] Yeah, I definitely feel like I need to do more market research[00:32:51] dane: [00:32:51] because otherwise you've got a bunch of people in a room guessing.[00:32:54] Yeah. Okay, so here's what happened with the call first. You mentioned the goal to get clarity. Then we set the context for if you couldn't fail, what would you do? You answered instantaneously, I want to do events. Then you started talking about the events. You were like, we'll do this events and these events and this, and it's very easy and fun and excited to get into the details of the event.[00:33:14] But what happened was you were in the world of mechanism, which doesn't move a business forward. It just helps you paint the room a little bit better. So we gave you context for the spine of a very successful business, which is a clear customer. A clear result and a clear mechanism. Then we spent most of the rest of time on this call on who your customer might be and the result they're looking for, and then of course, we would try those out to make sure that's all accurate.[00:33:42] We talked about iterating the Facebook ads to find the most profitable music fan or in this case person for you. Then. I was realizing that I was giving you a bunch of theories to try and so I asked you about the reality of what worked. How did you [00:34:00] get people 30 you just invited them by hand. Well, if you had 30 by hand, you'll probably be able to get 50 easy without having to do any paid ads.[00:34:07] If you only want 50. So we did is we actually went and looked at what worked. When we looked at what worked, we started figuring out and talking about more about the results of what people want. As we got more and more clear on the results were like, you know, food and fun is a big thing. We don't want to underestimate that that's ordinary.[00:34:23] It's like, Hey, come have food and fun, but at the same time, very compelling. We also got clear on the personal development fanatic language. That's a very, very nice differentiator that I think you'll have using that language. Then we looked at the kind of funnel that could fill this, and we are looking at a Facebook funnel, ideally with a video that tells people if they're personal development fanatics to come to the monthly thing, food and fun.[00:34:50] It's invite only request an invite, and then at those dinners you just sell people into the. Event, and if you did that well and went all in and promoted the dinners effectively and then have the upsell during like the middle of the dinner, you could potentially have like a 50 to 150 person event, but that's kind of the arc of the show.[00:35:10] Did I miss anything or anything you want to share to that?[00:35:13] Diana: [00:35:13] That sounds about right. Yeah, that was a really good recap.[00:35:16] dane: [00:35:16] Nice. I like how this has evolved. Yeah. I'm very excited and I definitely want to come to a food and fun personal development fanatic dinner.[00:35:25] Diana: [00:35:25] Yes, please. That would be awesome.[00:35:27] dane: [00:35:27] The retreats are a little bit too much of a commitment for me.[00:35:29] Being in the mastermind would be much, but like I would always be a contributor to the food and fun dinner evenings for sure.[00:35:35] Diana: [00:35:35] I love it. Yeah. Maybe you could come and do some music. Those are always some of my favorite experiences with you. For sure.[00:35:41] dane: [00:35:41] Thank you. Yeah, it can be pretty rad. Is there anything else.[00:35:44] Diana: [00:35:44] Yeah, I mean, that feels pretty in alignment. You know, it's just about really working on the backend and dev and not guessing. You know, getting to a point where we have clarity on what our target demo wants and you know who they are and where they're [00:36:00] at, and how we connect them and what we're offering them.[00:36:03] In the form of their results as opposed to that mechanism.[00:36:07] dane: [00:36:07] Whoa. Yes. You'll go up to legendary status. Like if you look at some super big businesses, they're generally really good about just being super clear on results. Yeah. They'll have like a picture of someone that's like lost a hundred pounds,[00:36:21] Diana: [00:36:21] right?[00:36:22] It's like nobody cares that you're eating a diet and you're doing this. They just care the a hundred pounds. Yeah. So true. Awesome. Yeah, this is a great session. Thank you for your guidance and your wisdom and insights. Really nice to just chat with you and reconnect again after all this[00:36:40] dane: [00:36:40] time. So for years, people have been asking me, what's the big secret?[00:36:44] How do I do this? And the answer is simple. My life took off when I had mentors. Too many people try to do this stuff alone and get stuck and give up. Listen, if you haven't succeeded in business or entrepreneurship yet, it's simple. You haven't failed enough yet. You haven't been around enough mentors yet.[00:37:01] If you combine failure with mentorship, you will fly. I had someone say, why are so many people so more successful than me? How come I can't get this right? And they said, well, how many times you failed? He's like, well, a lot of times I'm like, have you failed more than 10 times? He said, no. I was like, you haven't failed enough yet.[00:37:16] You haven't been around mentors enough. Yes, failure is how you learn. Michael Jordan has missed so many game winning shots. You've got to get out there and fail and how are you going to do that if you're all by yourself all alone? Beating yourself up in your own thoughts. Listen, I'm going to give you access to my board of advisors, my board of advisors that I talk to sometimes every day.[00:37:36] I'm going to give you access to them every month, live for you to ask questions and get your mindset on straight. They're going to ask you questions that are hard for you to answer. Those are the kinds of people you want in your life. You're also going to get access to not only the board of advisors, but my entire community, the start from zero community, all the entrepreneurs that are practicing these things, building these businesses.[00:37:57] You'll get access to this community and this board of [00:38:00] advisors and much more with the new program we've launched called start from zero.com for slash starters and you can see how you can get access to my board of advisors and ask them anything you want. Monthly, you'll get automated accountability to stay focused.[00:38:14] You get a community of other people all building businesses with a start from zero methodology. And guess what? You get kicked out of this community if you do not take action. So it is serious people. So if you'd like. Access to that information about that. Go to start from zero.com forward slash starters and it's about time that we get together and strengthen each other and fail together and pick each other back up together and show each other each other's blind spots and ask the hard questions and drive each other to that golden finish line of a business that you don't have to work in a business that provides freedom.[00:38:49] So you can sit around on a Tuesday and watch HBO if you want. All right, start from zero.com forward slash starter.

What's the best way to develop a content strategy that reflects the reality of today's buyer journey? This week on The Inbound Success Podcast, Ashley Faus, who is the Content Strategy Lead for Software Teams at Atlassian, shares why she thinks a playground provides a better analogy than a funnel for marketers looking to develop their content strategy, and how to use the concept of a content playground to provide your customers and prospects with a better buying experience. Highlights from my conversation with Ashley include: Many marketers use the concepts of the linear funnel and the looping decision journey to develop their content strategies, but Ashley says that those don't reflect the reality of how people buy. Much like in a playground, where there isn't a singular goal (get to the top of the jungle gym!), your prospects aren't always ready to buy and may have other interests. For this reason, a playground offers a better analogy. Rather than forcing prospects to follow a specific journey that we as marketers have determined is ideal, Ashley recommends focusing on creating strong content depth that allows your prospects to follow their own journey, wherever it takes them. For smaller teams that are just getting started, Ashley recommends identifying your "hedgehog principle" - that one thing you do better than everyone else - and creating a very in-depth piece of content on that. Then, you can use that content to repurpose into a variety of assets that can be used on social media, for your trade shows, in the sales process, etc. The key is to find a topic that is substantive enough to support the development of this amount of content.  In terms of how this content gets presented on your website, Ashley recommends ungating it, and then being very explicit with your CTAs so that your website visitors know exactly what they will get if they click a button.  She also suggests adding a related content module on your site to encourage visitors to browse through your content. The best way to begin measuring the impact of your strategy is to use simple tools like Google Analytics in combination with UTMs. As you grow, you can use more sophisticated marketing automation software like HubSpot or Marketo. Resources from this episode: Visit the Atlassian website Connect with Ashley on LinkedIn Follow Ashley on Twitter Check out Atlassian's Team Playbook and Agile Microsite Listen to the podcast to learn why envisioning your buyer's journey -- and their interactions with your content -- as a playground is a more effective way to approach the development of a content strategy. Transcript Kathleen Booth (Host): Welcome back to the Inbound Success Podcast. I'm your host Kathleen Booth. And this week my guest is Ashley FOSS, who is the content strategy lead for software teams at Atlassian. Welcome Ashley. Ashley Faus (Guest): Nice to be here. Thanks so much for having me. I'm so happy to have you here. Ashley and Kathleen recording this episode. Kathleen: And, and for those who are listening, you can't see it. But Ashley has an awesome virtual Zoom background of the golden gate bridge. That's one of my favorite things about the pandemic is that it is revealing people's personalities through the Zoom backgrounds that they choose.  Ashley: It's been interesting. I actually think didn't have the latest version of Zoom. I got scared that if I upgraded and something went wrong, I wouldn't have access to it. So for a long time I was the lame person that didn't have a background and it was just my kitchen the whole time. So yes, I finally upgraded. Tell any of the listeners that are hesitant, you can upgrade. And it's not going to ruin your computer. And you, too, can have a nice virtual backgrounds. Kathleen: Oh yeah. For our all hands meetings at my office. We've been having so much fun with just seeing the backgrounds that people come to these meetings with. It's, it's awesome. It reveals so much about their personalities. About Ashley and Atlassian Kathleen: But so we have so much to talk about. And the first thing I want to talk about is really have you explain to my listeners what Atlassian is, and then also your background and what led you to your current role as Content Strategy Lead. Ashley: Sure. So Atlassian is a collaboration software maker. A lot of people are very familiar with JIRA, Confluence, Trello, Bitbucket, Status Page. We have a number of different products that people use all the time. JIRA especially is a staple for software teams. So I actually started at Atlassian two and a half years ago and I moved among a couple of different teams. My background is primarily marketing, but I actually started on the corporate communications team, moved over to editorial, doing a mix of content strategy, social media, thought leadership for the corporate side, and then just recently made the move over onto software teams. One thing that's kind of interesting and great is having that diverse background has given me that ability to move across different areas and go where my skills can be most useful. So I'm excited to dive in. I'm fairly new to the role, so it's been an interesting transition to try to onboard from home and then also start to get up to speed both from a content standpoint and a strategy standpoint, and then also from a tactical standpoint of where are all the different boards, where's the JIRA tickets? Like what's the process, what are the meetings? So, um, it's been fun. It's been fun. Kathleen: I will definitely say as far as Atlassian is concerned, I've been a user of so many of the company's products. I've used Confluence and JIRA. I'm currently using Trello. I know our dev team uses a number of products as well. It's a great company and a great suite of products, especially for anybody who's practicing agile, which I have done a few times. And so that was another reason I was excited to talk to you. But one of the things I think is really interesting is, you know, you mentioned you're relatively new in the role and we were just talking before we came on and you were explaining how your fiscal year, it's going to change over pretty soon. And so not only are you relatively new in the role, but you're being thrust into the situation of having to plan and strategize for a whole new year in the middle of the pandemic, no less all of these things happening at once. Your current focus is on content and I was really fascinated by how you think about content and content strategy planning and this concept of the content playground. So could you talk a little bit about that and what do you mean when you say a content playground?  What is a content playground? Ashley: I started thinking about it because I needed a new metaphor. Everybody that I talked to was talking about primarily the linear funnel. And you know, you've got your three phases with your editorial calendar and you say, "I need three content, three pieces of content per phase. I'm going to do one per month. Cool. Now I have nine months of content strategy, if my math works out". Most of your listeners are probably sitting there going, "That's not how you do content strategy. You can't just say one piece of content per phase and then call it". Kathleen: Wouldn't it be nice if you could though?  Ashley: You bought a calendar, write three articles and you're done. Then, you know, I know a lot of people have moved on to the looping decision journey where you basically add a fourth phase in there. And you're kind of almost recycling these people, but now there's a cross sell or upsell, but somehow you're dumping them back into that awareness phase from the linear funnel. If you look at the Google results for both the linear funnel and the looping decision funnel, it's kind of terrifying. It's very confusing. It basically just shows that we all agree that humans don't work this way. Nobody just goes politely down our little funnel. The 10-3-1 conversion was kind of the standard for a long time. You get 10 people in awareness. A certain amount of drops. So you get three into consideration to be able to get one to that kind of purchase decision. I was really wrestling with this because I was like, how do you create content in a way that allows people to do what they actually do, which is enter and exit and go sideways and all of that? So I had originally come up with this idea of a jungle gym. But there's two problems with that -- mainly that there's only one objective. It's either to get to the top or, if you're my three year old nephew, it's to go across without touching the lava below that. It's still me as a marketer forcing you into what I want you to do and it's taking all these touch points and saying, what's the fewest number of touch points that I can use to get you to a purchase? And yes, ultimately we need to sell products. Ultimately we have to make money as businesses, but it feels bad to everybody to just constantly be like, are you just trying to sell me something? Like what's the catch? I don't really trust you because I know you're trying to sell me. So if you look at an actual playground though, what's the point of the playground? Is the person who's sitting on the bench just enjoying the sunshine? Are they enjoying the playground the wrong way? No, actually perfectly acceptable. Sit on the bench. Again, you know, thinking about what the right way is to play on the playground for the adults and the playground designers, going down the slide is the right way. Three year old nephew, every time wants to go up the slide. If you translate that to content strategy, I recently had an example of this where in the traditional funnel, pricing is considered a very bottom of funnel action. If I'm asking you about price, man, I'm ready to buy. Well, in my case, I needed to go ask for budget before I could even do the RFP and I had no idea what that budget should be for. It was going to be a SaaS product. So understanding, you know, the subscription, SLA, the licensing tiers, all of that. And so I started reaching out to some vendors in the space asking them for just ballpark pricing so I could go get budget. And so many of them were like, well, allow me to send you a white paper about why this matters a lot and you know, Oh, you need to do a demo. And I'm like, Nope, I don't want to waste my time going through your traditional funnel when I don't even know if I have a budget yet. Kathleen: I have to just interject there and say amen because this has been a frustration of mine for so long. I had this recently with a marketing software product. It was exactly what you're talking about. It was last November and I was working on my budget and I knew that I was not going to purchase this product until halfway through 2020. And that was even before all this craziness with the pandemic hit. But I needed a placeholder number for it in my budget. So there's no chance I was going to engage in, like multi meetings and demos and hours long calls with people to pitch me what I know I'm not ready to buy yet. I just needed a price. There's nothing more frustrating than companies that make it that hard and it wasn't a one time thing. I just found myself doing this yesterday. Somebody started talking about email signature software and they mentioned the name of a new company, and I literally Googled the company name and pricing because I was like, I don't even want to waste my time looking at everything else and getting excited about it if I can't afford it. Ashley: Yeah, well, and it's interesting too because once I got the budget approved, I was already completely sold that this problem needed to be solved. I just needed to get management on board that yes, we are committed to solving this problem. So then I actually got into the sales process and you know, I started kind of at the top of that and I just said, look, I'm bought in, draw me all the way down to the bottom of the funnel and I want you to just pitch me. Kathleen: Yeah.  Ashley: It blew the sales people's minds. And they're like, well, let me just go through the deck. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. I don't know how many slides you have, but I'm telling you I'm bought in, I agree with you. This has impact. It solves a problem that I have. I have money, here's what my budget is. I'm BANT qualified. I need you to drop me all the way in and I need you to sell me. A majority of them just froze because they didn't know how to go through there. They only know how to do this step by step. And that's where I think the content playground comes in. Obviously there's a sales component to this too. When you do get people who just want to jump right in, I wouldn't send them to play on the swings. That's what we're doing right now. We're spending all our time on the swings. Let's just do it. Quit trying to force them to go down the slide. It's so funny because people have this idea that there's a specific way that you're supposed to build the relationship and you're supposed to, you know, okay, let's get you through the marketing funnel and get you through MQL and then SQL and then a sale. And it doesn't always work that way. Sometimes you meet somebody and they come at you and they're like, no, I'm literally ready to sign on the dotted line, whether it's you or one of your competitors. So why should it be you? Kathleen: Yeah. And not only is that an issue, but it's like I'm going to sign and it's going to be fast. So if you can't meet my fast timeline, just get out of my way. Exactly. That's so interesting. I love that concept. How to use the concept of a content playground to develop your content strategy Kathleen: So give me an example of, conceptually, how does that play out in terms of developing and executing your strategy? Ashley: I've done this at a number of different companies and then we also, you know, do this similar type of thing, whether you see whether you recognize it and call it a content playground or not. When you start to recognize companies that do it because you go through and there's a nice experience to say, Oh, I've kind of landed in this problem space or solution space and now I have the ability to go explore. So we've done that quite a bit in it last year and moving into this content strategy role on software teams, I'm getting exposed to some great ways that they've done it. So for example, we have this agile microsite and then we paired that last year with this agile coach series. This is all work that has been done that I'm excited to come in and kind of optimize and see how can we replicate this across other content types. And it basically says, you know, yes, JIRA helps you run in an agile way, but if you don't have the right practices set up and you don't have that mindset in those processes, a tool is not the thing that's going to fix it for you. And so sure we can sell you JIRA, but if we don't show you the right way to set up the workflows, if we don't help you have acceptable standups, if we don't help you improve your retros, having these things on a board is not going to solve, you know, your agility problems. And so putting that together, if you look at it from a content depth standpoint, instead of organizing around specific phases of the funnel, organizing it around content depth. So from a conceptual standpoint, what the heck is agile? Why does it matter? What kinds of success, you know, have people seen with it, what are the problems from a strategy standpoint, what are the practices and rituals? So that's where you get into some of the standups. That's where you get into some of the retros. And then from a tactic standpoint, how do you actually do those things? And so we have a number of things from the agile coach series, from the agile microsite and also our team playbook, which talks about things like my user manual. So how do you work together as a team? Um, putting together project coasters for kickoffs. And then yes, there's some product demos in there. There's some guides in there, there's some tutorials, there's here workflows that you can set up to do that in JIRA or to do that in Trello. But it's really that full content experienced to say, I just need help figuring out how to run my standups or my retros. And then, cool that I can do that in JIRA as well. So I previously worked at Duarte, if you're familiar with Nancy Duarte's work. Um, she wrote Resonate, which was, you know, a big game changer for a lot of people. They do workshops, they do presentation design for tons of big names and Fortune 500 companies. So we did this in a number of ways. When we launched her slide decks book for example, we put that as a free, ungated version on SlideShare. And then we linked over to this kind of more traditional inbound strategy page where you've got a landing page with a form, you give away a free piece of content, show good faith that this is good quality, and then you've got a form fill out to download some templates that people could use that would then drop people into a drip campaign where we would showcase more templates, we would showcase some use cases that we had built and give them more content to ultimately lead them to say, "Hey, if you want to buy a workshop to learn how to do this at a pro level, here's how you can do that." Getting started with your content playground Kathleen: So if I love the whole concept here, and I love the notion of content depth because I do think that there are so many marketers that almost try to cover too much and they skim the surface on everything and it doesn't work. I think the thing that could be challenging about this is hearing that, like, where do you start and how do you, how do you get there? Because you can't snap your fingers and have a lot of depth in all these topics right away. And also, how do you know what those top level topics are? If you were teaching this to somebody, how would you walk them through that? Ashley: So there's a couple of ways that, uh, we've been able to do it at Atlassian. Obviously we're fortunate we have a large team and a ton of experts that have complimentary skills. So for example, we have done a ton of keyword research to understand both search intent and the specific wording of that. From a market standpoint, agile came in and changed the game, and it turns out that JIRA was actually a really good fit to run agile. So we already kind of were keeping a pulse on the market and we started to see that agile is becoming this very mainstream thing, that our tool and our technology is really useful in helping people run. So let's focus on agile. Okay, where do we focus? And that's where things like SEO and keyword research, that's where focus groups, that's where digging through the feedback that your customers are giving you and asking like, what are the top questions in terms of workflows? How do those map to things like running scrum teams or running Kanban boards? How does that now map to workflows and guides and onboarding tutorials that we would share with somebody who starts with your product or working with Trello products, for example? So I would say I'm doing a listening exercise and there's a number of tools. You could do it on social media as well, particularly for software devs, which is one of our core audiences. They hang out on Hacker News, they hang out on Reddit. And so go look there. That's, that's another core tenant I think as marketers is loving the whole human and not just who are you as a buyer? I only care about you as a buyer or user. How do I get you to engage in the product every day or buy more of the service? Okay, these people have lives. And so if you can figure out what do they love, what are they passionate about outside of the one thing you're trying to sell them, that also gives you an entire new space to explore for thinking about what topics could you engage in. And so, when you think about engineers, efficiency, optimization, clean and concise process is something that's very important to them. Well what are some of the frameworks or what are some of the topics that deal with optimization that could potentially lead you to lead you to something like Six Sigma or manufacturing for example, right? There's a lot of ways that you could think about it if you just know what do engineers generally like? And it's like, they really like efficiency. They like optimization, they like tight, elegant solutions and just jump off from there to see, okay, what are the specific topic areas that would coincide with your product offering? And with the things that they generally care about, what does that mean? Kathleen: And if you don't have an enormous team and you want to take this approach, how do you do it? Because I imagine you'd have a choice of like, okay, I've identified 10 areas that I want to go deep on, you know, and I could either take area number one and fully play it out and develop all the content. Or I could do one article for each of the 10 areas and then go back and do the second article. Like how would you tackle it? Ashley: Yeah. So one of the things that Nancy Duarte actually talks about a ton, from Jim Collins book Good to Great is this concept of the hedgehog principle. And that's if you can do one thing and be the best at it, just do that one thing. So instead of trying to spread yourself too thin across all of those 10 topics, I would be ruthless initially in what is the thing that we actually have the ability to talk about without having to spend a ton of time and energy going and finding that expertise? What's the thing that leads most to the product market fit, or the service market fit, whichever of those that you're selling? And then what's the thing that has depth? This is something that I see a lot, is people start throwing topics on the board and you're like, okay, but how many words can you actually say about that thing? And for the most part, people were like, "Whoa". And it's like you can't even say one sentence about it. How are you going to write a full article? And then that also gets into, it's not just one article, it's okay, how do we also turn that into a video? How do we turn that into an infographic? How do we turn that into a social media post? Because this thing has to live for a lot of time. Nobody has time to keep creating net new content all the time. And so if this piece can't be repurposed or broken apart, it probably doesn't have enough depth to chase. So I would say if you're very first, starting from scratch, to limit it to probably two, maybe three topics that are related to each other and that you know, have depth. And I would say especially if you're dealing with a small team, like you're at a start up and the founder is kind of the only person who could talk about this, I'm definitely limiting that to two topics that you know you have in house expertise and then doing a good job to capture that from a conceptual, strategic and tactical standpoint the first time. And then go with the repurposing strategy. So instead of saying, "Oh my gosh, we have to cover it, a thousand words or a 20 minute video every single time", think about it as, no, nobody wants to read that, nobody's going to scroll through all of that. So let them pick their journey of how deep they want to go. Repurposing your content Kathleen: So can you dig in a little bit more to that repurposing topic because I was interested to hear you discuss all the different ways that the content can manifest, because I think a lot of people might hear this and think it's a bunch of blogs, but it's, it's really not. Ashley: One of my favorite campaigns that was super successful, there was a startup that I worked at that got acquired by Oracle called Palerra. Palerra was a cloud access security broker, which, you know, doesn't matter as much to the majority of the audience if they're not in tech, but, basically they're kind of a complimentary security product to a lot of cloud offerings. We were primarily an enterprise solution. Technology is a really heavy topic. And so what we did, when I came in, there was this raw word doc of just random customer interviews, and problems that they had faced. And so for example, we all know on a personal level we should update our passwords regularly. A lot of companies have that installed where it's like 72 days time to change your password. So at an enterprise security level, there's a similar concept for your keys to your different cloud services. And so we had a scenario where there was a customer that hadn't rotated their keys in like two years. It blew our minds. So our product actually found that. So we actually were talking about cautionary tales and focusing specifically on AWS because that cloud offering is quite ubiquitous among our customers and these are a lot of common pitfalls that our products can help solve. So we called it a cautionary tale. We turned it into an ebook first that then became the basis for our booth graphics at AWS Reinvent. And then we had a booth giveaway. We put an Amazon Tap in a clear box and then we had a bowl of keys sitting next to it and they looked identical. And so you drew a key and if it unlocked the box, you won the Tap. And so that was able to lead us into, "Have you rotated your keys? How are you doing password management?" But not just those basic tactical issues, but also like how do you know there's even a working key in the bowl? How do you know that Kathleen is supposed to have the key and not Ashley? What happens to the keys after the show? So let's say Kathleen and Ashley both leave and the bowls just sitting there. Now what happens to the keys? Right? And our product can help with that. And from a security standpoint, those are a lot of blind spots that at the time people were missing. And then the nice thing about that being at a security conference, people were very skeptical that there were any working keys in the bowl. Right? There's no keys. Yeah. So every time someone won, we took a picture and then we put it on the company Twitter feed. And then if they had a Twitter handle, we tagged them and ask them to retweet. And so there were people, and I mean we had people, well, again, they're very methodical about this. They're like, okay, it looks like roughly once an hour people are winning. So the last time somebody won, they just won. Okay, well I'm going to come back and try again later. Kathleen: Like people play slots.  Ashley: Yeah. It's like slots. But that was a great way. And then we were also able to share that ebook on Twitter as well to say, "Hey, if you're curious why we're taking pictures of the food, you can read this ebook." And then we were able to send that as well with some deeper case studies to anybody that we had scanned at the booth. So it was a really nice integrated online, offline and social media experience. That's another one of my pet peeves is people who are just like, come to booth 123. I'm not at the conference so you're just going to spam me for three days. So making sure that you have content that tells a story to your social media audience, whether they're attending the conference or not. Kathleen: That's great. That's a really good point about the shows too. Because yeah, you do so much marketing. And if somebody is not going, it's just annoying. How to share your content on your website Kathleen: So if you've created all this content, what does that look like on the website from an experience standpoint? Are there content hubs? Is it a resource center? How do you organize this all for presentation to your audience? Ashley: I think it really depends on the audience. I think HubSpot, obviously from the hub and spoke model that they've done, is amazing so that you can kind of see, you can dive in deep per topic, you could dive in deep from an integrative marketing standpoint, you can dive in deep from a tech stack standpoint and obviously they have solutions for that. So the way that they've organized it is actually really great because it allows people to kind of slice and dice how they want. One of the things that we've done that I think is really great and it lasts and is, for example, on the work-life blog, which is like a corporate level, so deals with things like teamwork, practices, leadership, et cetera. We've got a related articles function. And so when you get to the bottom of the article, yes, there's a CTA. If you want to sign up for the newsletter, you want to um, go talk in the community. Or in some cases where we're doing product focused content, it's go to the product tour or something like that. But then at the bottom there's related content. And so we have a mix of collections, a mix of tags, and then those get fed into the related content. And so there's always a next step for people to take. I think that's the biggest thing, whether you organize it as a hub, whether you organize it as a resource center that's done by topic filtering or content tagging, that ability for somebody to always take the next step and to, to only force that next step to be a buying action if they're in a head space for buying action. So if you're on a product tour, the request a demo or the sign up for free, or the do an evaluation for seven days or 30 days, whatever it is, that makes perfect sense. But if you've just read an article about productivity, it's a really hard landing to talk about five tips to manage your time and then all of a sudden be dropped into, you know, by the way, you need to buy Trello. It's like, why would I do that? So making sure that there's always a next logical action that either takes them deeper toward a purchase or deeper tool, words and practices that will help them or allow them to say, I don't know how I landed here. How do I get back to the first thing that I clicked so that I can get back on the path where I think I should be? Kathleen: Yeah. How do you execute that? Because you just gave the example of somebody who's just poking around and then they're all of a sudden getting pushed to buy. You know, being that it's a playground and people can go in any number of directions, how do you craft those next steps so that they make sense? Ashley: I think the biggest thing is, there's obviously an ideal customer journey and that does include some post-sale engagement. That could be things like documentation. It could be a support community. But really, I mean even from like, um, practically accessibility, labeling your buttons with what it is you're doing. Are you downloading this? Are you reading this? Are you clicking to do an evaluation? Are you starting a trial for free? What is that? And then that way people are very clear whenever they get down there, they know what they're clicking on. I know I've had this experience a few times where it's like, see more. And I'm like, yes, I wish to do that. And it automatically takes me into this form where it's like put in a credit card. And I'm like, you didn't tell me that's what I was doing. That's not, I didn't agree to that. So having really clear navs and in the resource center, not having buy CTAs all over the resources. For example, Intercom does a great job with this. They're a messaging, communication growth platform. You can go over to their journal section or their resource center and it's all thought leadership. It's all very high level and they state at the top, "This is free content. It's educational, no sales." And so, you know, when you're that part of the website, you're not going to get sold to and there's a nice handy button at the top. It's like go back to home. And that's where, you know, you could either be directed down an education path or sales path and you can kind of choose. So I think just being really explicit. We're past the point of I'm going to trick you into sales. It might've been on LinkedIn. I saw a discussion that maybe you and somebody else were having about, "Oh, I got a thousand leads from this form. And the question is, are they qualified?" Jay Acunzo actually has a whole rant about this. Stop gating your best content and then pretending whoever fills out that form is a lead sales lead. That's not what they agreed to. And so don't try and trick your audience. If they want to buy, they'll let you know. If they want to be educated and they want to form a relationship with you, they'll do that. And so giving them a clear path to let them either do sales or build a relationship makes them feel empowered. It gives everybody good feelings and it doesn't clutter up your sales process with people that are junk, that are not qualified or that are not actually interested in buying. Kathleen: So true. I find it's counterintuitive because, I started a few years ago ungating as much content as I possibly could and just putting it on the page and then adding like a little field just for email saying, "Want to get the PDF? Put your email in." And that was it.  What was fascinating to me is that not only did conversion rates not go down, in many cases, they went up. It's really psychology if you think about it. There's so much crappy gated content out there and the problem with gating it, first of all, is people are very jaded and a lot of them will think, I'm not giving up my email only to find out that this is junk. And so then they don't convert at all. Whereas, if you give the content away and then give them the option of downloading, you're basically allowing them to try before they buy. You're proving that what you're giving them is really good and if they do think it's really good, they are going to convert because they're like, "Well, it's no skin off my back. This is great content. I don't mind giving up my email address for it." And so the people that wind up converting on the ungated content are more qualified because they've self qualified. The other thing I've found, it goes back to your thing about being explicit, is especially when you don't have things gated, like on the page before or in the marketing you're doing for it, just coming right out and saying, "No need to fill out a form to get it." Ashley: Yeah. Kathleen: You don't have to give us your email address. People are so naturally almost defensive or they're like, Oh, Nope, Nope, Nope. They're going to ask for something. And if you can just come out and say, I'm not going to ask you for anything, that goes a long way. Ashley: Well, and I think what's interesting in this, in this thought about building relationships and giving that content away, a great example, there's a company that I worked with, they were an agency for us. We were a startup. We were using, you know, a lot of agencies and freelancers and they host these dinners and it's basically, you know, just get five, six, seven people together, have dinner, nerd out about marketing topics. And yes, we all know full well some of us are current customers of this company. Some people are prospects of the company. But I don't have budget or need to work with them anymore. But every single time I meet somebody that says that they have the need that this company services, I refer them and I refer probably three or four clients to them. I would continue to do that and we have a great relationship. They still invite me to the dinners. I sent one of my colleagues to a dinner to basically make a connection to say this might be relevant for you to meet some people that we might want to put spokespeople on panels with in the future. And so that willingness to connect with each other. I'm loyal to that company even though I have no budget and no need to buy from them right now. But I'm referring, I'm still giving them revenue because again, it's, it's fine for, for me, when I meet somebody at a conference and they're like, how would you do this? I'm like, actually this is a great company. Would you like an intro? And so a buying action may not necessarily be the person who downloaded the content buys. It may be, I mean, again, I talk about Intercom. I love the content that IDEO puts out. Again, I have no need to buy their services at this point, but I tell everybody, go look at HubSpot's content or go look at Intercom's content. And so there's no way for them to measure that. I'm just another random name on their list that hasn't converted, but I'm a brand champion for them and they don't even know it, you know? Measuring the ROI of your content playground Kathleen: That's awesome. So speaking of measuring, you get this all set up. You deploy it. How do you track and measure whether it's working, how it's working, et cetera? Ashley: So I've done this in a number of different ways depending on the company and the strategy and the bandwidth and all of that kind of stuff. If you're just starting out in your tiny little team, and you don't have the ability to do, you know, Tableau or Databricks or kind of all of these fancy data pipelines, at minimum just start out with your Google tracking. Google has free stuff that you can put on. Use your UTM codes to understand if these things are getting tracked from a social media standpoint, what's the referrals, if you are using any pages with forms from any of the marketing automation providers. Again, I'm pretty partial to HubSpot just because I think they do amazing content. The platform is great. We've used Marketo in the past, and other companies. So any of those are great to really understand what are the trends. I think that's the biggest thing. Making sure that you're looking at a correct trend level. I've worked a lot on the social media side and people get freaked out per post. "Oh my gosh, we did 10 posts last week and this one did, you know, half a percent better than this one." And it's like, let's zoom out and look monthly. How are things trending? Let's do some testing to see if we post more. Does our engagement rate go down if we, um, the other big thing is optimizing the CTA is for what you want to happen. So it's going to be really impossible for you to get somebody to like, comment, retweet, follow, and click through all in the same posts. Like there's not enough words for that post. And so making sure that each CTA belongs where it should be. So if you're asking for a poll on Twitter or Facebook, that's the goal. Responses in feed is the goal versus explicitly asking someone to click through. Make that explicit and you need to make sure that you're putting in some sort of hook or benefit. I see this a lot with people who are just starting in social media, for example, that they just give the title of the article or they just say, read these five tips. Well, what are they? On the opposite extreme, they give it away and they say, here's the five tips. And then they laid them out. And I'm like, well, now why do I need to read the article? You already gave me the tips. Give me the first tip that you think is the most interesting and then say, click through to read the next four tips. Kathleen: Right? Ashley: So, from a measurement standpoint, being very clear on a per post basis about what your goals are, if you're looking at click through rate or engagement rates and what type of engagement. So that's kind of more from a social media standpoint. If you're doing YouTube, if the answer is subscribe to the channel, if the answer is watch the next video, if the answer is go visit the page, those are very different actions. And so making sure you're optimizing those. And then obviously looking at things like organic traffic is always great. Looking at whether you have emails or product tours. From an email standpoint, looking at the open rates and the click to open ratio. So a lot of people look at the CTR, but that's a little bit out of whack. If there's a thousand people that opened it, but you sent it to 5,000, it's not very fair to say what's the CTR on the 5,000? Use it on the thousand. In some cases we've gotten really granular to look at which pieces of content get the most clicks. And so that helps us to understand, it's great that you want to put 10 pieces of content in the newsletter, but if only the first five ever get clicked, you need to find something else to do because you're not amplifying those things. Kathleen: How do you get people down further? Ashley: Yeah, exactly. What kinds of results can you expect? Kathleen: So any examples of like, what kinds of results does taking this approach yield in terms of pipeline or engagement or revenue or any of the above? Ashley: Yeah. From a scale standpoint, it depends. It's not very fair to say like, Oh, you'll get a thousand leads. It's like, okay, well if your revenue goal is 10,000, that's a struggle. Or if you're a billion dollar company, a thousand leads doesn't do you any good, right? So, we've done content pairing for example, where we've done a mix of gated content and ungated content. When we did that at Duarte, the ungated piece has over 300,000 views. Now it's been up for a couple of years, but it's got over 300,000 views. We were getting roughly 10 to 15% download rates of people going and getting that content. And so that's something where you're still getting the benefit of the people looking at it for free and ungated, but then you're starting to see higher engagement, you know, 10, 15% on that. Whenever I've done newsletter sends that have been more thought leadership focused with very light touch sales, we've been able to see 20, 30% open rates, 15 to 25% CTOR rates. Again, because we're serving that content that they've requested, not trying to shoehorn in sales. Whenever we've done sales, as a piece of content, like, "Hey, get a trial" or "Use this code" or "Refer" or "Here's an eCourse and then we'll give you one module for free because you've signed up for this newsletter" or something like that, those do have a much higher conversion rate for whatever the next buying action is. Again, it depends on the scale. So like the Palerra one at the time, you know, that ebook and we were a tiny little company. I mean we only had, I think when we got acquired, we had maybe 60 employees total. So very small company, 10 by 20 booth at AWS Reinvent, which is a massive conference. And we got, you know, almost 2000 views on that small ungated ebook. And then we got substantially higher open rates, and then our lead scans at that booth, I mean it was ridiculous. I want to say we scanned like 500 people and at most shows we were only scanning probably a hundred to 112 and so it was huge because it all tied in. Kathleen's two questions Kathleen: That's awesome. Well shifting gears because we're gonna run out of time. I have two questions that I like to ask all my guests and I'm really curious to hear your answers because you've worked with some really interesting companies who are very good at this. Is there a particular company or individual that you think is really killing it with inbound marketing right now? Ashley: So I will do the shameless plug for Atlassian, A, because I work there so of course I think we're doing a good job. But truly, I think one of the biggest examples of this, we have our team playbook and this is something again where we connected our work futurist Don Price, has done a number of different keynotes around the world and always promotes the team playbook and that has led to this health monitor -- the team health check, understanding where your blockers are. That led to a large engagement with ANZ bank, which is a huge bank in Australia and they have now done a case study with us. They're huge champions that come for our conferences and speak about how this one tiny little interaction with this health monitor has led to this entire agile transformation across their business. It's a mix of the tools, the people, the practices, it all came together perfectly. So, yes, that had a revenue result for us, but it started with that ungated content at a conceptual level about how do you do your team work better and that's what Atlassian really tries to empower. I mentioned Intercom as well. They have a ton of great content. They've got sales manuals, they got marketing manuals that talk about a variety of different ways to think about content marketing, sales, the interaction between sales and marketing. Highly recommend their content for both sales and marketing practitioners. And then, IDEO, just like if you want to elevate your creativity and you want to kind of think outside of a traditional business or products. I work in tech, so of course I'm in this little bubble that everything is SaaS and everything is ARR. IDEO has none of that. And so every time I go to IDEO and just like, this is fascinating, how does the world work when you're not in your little bubble? And so I would say, no matter what bubble you're in, IDEO will help you get out of it. That would be three that are a mix of marketing focused, tech and then a design consultancy that's just completely out of my wheel house.  Kathleen: I can't wait to check some of those out -- particularly IDEO. It sounds really interesting. Well, second question is, the biggest pain point I was here from marketers is that digital is changing so quickly and they feel like it's drinking from a fire hose to try and keep up with everything and stay educated and on the cutting edge. So how do you personally do that? Ashley: Yeah, so from a broader view, kind of outside of marketing or just business chops, which I think is really important, it's how do we fit in and especially as you move up in your career and you become COO or something like that, understanding that business acumen is really key. I love MIT Sloan review for that content and they've been killing it lately. Every single thing that's come out from them over the last probably six or seven months, I'm like, "Yes, one hundred percent fascinating". So I love MIT Sloan from a business standpoint. There's a couple of marketers that I think are a little bit contrarian and I joked about going on rants about things and I'm like, "Yes, ranting. I love it." Katie Martell is somebody that I've been loving her content lately. Jay Acunzo I think is great. He's really honing in on podcasting and show running over the last year or so. But just in general, his thoughts on content marketing and strategy are great. I love Scott Berkun. He is primarily a designer, and more on that design thinking. He has a new book out that I need to get because it looks amazing. It's like How Design Makes the World, I think is what it's called. And it's looking at how all of these interactions and everyday things influence our path, our actions, et cetera. So Scott Berkun is great. And then I would say just like a book that I always come back to is this book called The Medici Effect by Frans Johansson. It's primarily about intersectional thinking and divergent thinking. And so yes, there's an element of understanding the tactical nitty gritty from a digital standpoint. I think there's a number of, you know, Marketing Profs, CMI, HubSpot, all of those do a really great job of that. But how do you think about change? How do you think about a problem space? How do you think about a solution space? The Medici Effect is just every, it's like I come back to it kind of annually. It's like, okay, somewhere in there I'm missing something. I should probably just reread the The Medici Effect. In fact, I should probably just to think about the concepts and The Medici Effect to jolt myself out of being so focused on, okay, what does this button on Twitter do or what does this ads do? Like are we doing AB testing? We're doing multivariate testing, what's our competence interval, whatever. We're pulling those things down. Like I don't know what the best practice is. It's like I'm clearly thinking about it in the wrong way. If I'm so twitchy about such a small detail, you get lost in the weeds pretty easily. Kathleen: Those sound like some really good resources. I will put links to all of them in the show notes. How to connect with Ashley Kathleen: If somebody is listening and they want to connect with you online or follow you or learn more about this topic, what's the best way for them to do that? Ashley: I would love to connect on LinkedIn. I'm Ashley Faus. For the most part, I think I'm the first search result for that. And you can also follow me on Twitter also @AshleyFaus. Kathleen: Great. I will put Ashley's links to her social accounts in the show notes. So head there if you want to find them. You know what to do next... Kathleen: And if you are listening and you liked what you heard today or you learned something new, and how could you not because Ashley shared so many good ideas, head to Apple podcasts and please leave the podcast a five star review. That helps us get found by more people. And if you know somebody who's doing kick ass inbound marketing work, tweet me at @workmommywork, because I would love to make them my next interview. Thanks so much for joining me this week, Ashley. Ashley: Yeah, thank you for having me. It's always fun to nerd out about marketing. Kathleen: Yes!

In This Episode, Curtis Goes From Speaking about Star Wars Day, to Giving His Craziest Advice Yet, to Talking to Himself, to him Speaking about What to Speak About! This Episode has it All!Don’t Believe Me? Take a Listen!!!Listen! Listen! Listen! is a show hosted by Curtis Elton. Speaking non-stop in each episode, you'd think he'd actually say something Valuable!!!WRONG!!!The show has NO THEME...NO USEFUL INFORMATION...NO, NOT THAT EITHERWhat it does have is funny, non-stop talking lasting approximately 5 minutes per episode. Every episode is Different!Go on, you know you want to, have a listen to Listen! Listen! Listen!New episodes every Tuesday & Thursday. Stay tuned for more of Listen! Listen! Listen!TRANCRIPT:Curtis Hello and welcome back to another episode of Listen! Listen! Listen! I'm your host, Curtis Elton and I what are we gonna be speaking about today? I have no idea. So let's get right to it. Two days ago, it was Cinco De Mayo and that's all I have to say about that. But not one, not two, But three days ago It was Star Wars Day. So may the force speak with you! With Me? You Mean it? Ain't you a Sweetheart?! Go! Buy Yourself Something Nice! Go! STOP!!! Don't go anywhere! Before we move on, I have a quick tip for you. Yes you, You (Taps on Microphone), Right There! Yes. Not behind you. Not in front of you but you. Yeah, I'm looking at you kid See! Now here's how to annoy everybody around you. Yes, you, You, You, You, You! Ah! this is driving me Crazy! 101. So let's get to it. Hey, man, can I borrow your phone? Your a Phone! Can I get a glass of Water? Your water. Can I borrow some cash? Your Cash! Oy Vey! I cannot get through to this kid. He's crazy! There you have it. How to annoy somebody 101! Back to you Curtis! Wait. No, I am Curtis. Okay, then. Back to you, Curtis. Wait! Deja vu all over again. Somebody Help Me! I'm going crazy. Well, that's all I've got left to say, so I‘ve still got some time to Fill. I think! I'm Not a wearing a watch. Crikey!. So, uh, anybody got any ideas? What to do, What to do? There's nobody around here! Stupid! Let's see. Oh, I got it. Can I say, I said, I said, Can I get an Amen?! Thank you! Oh, by the way, you’ve got a little something right there! Ha! Made you Look! Now I've done that, that's all I've got for today. So I'll just have to end the show right there. Thank you for listening to another episode of Listen! Listen!, Listen! Happy Cinco De Mayo! Happy Star Wars Day! May the force be with you. Catch you Later Hasta la Vista Baby! I'm Outta Here! Buh-Bye! (Breathes in and Out Like Darth Vader) Luke, I am your Father. What? You?! Out of Everybody You?! Oh, Come On! Wait till everybody hears about this! They’re going to go Crazy!

This week Athena and Kristy discuss the fact that we might be the only ones in our homes that know what’s really going on. From our kids saying the darnedest things, to them, not being able to find their father (even when he’s RIGHT THERE). We have realized that maybe there’s just really never a dull moment.    Stay after the credits for some out takes during recording.  Insta Media- Website: www.unpredictablyuspodcast.com  Twitter: @UnpredictablyUs Instagram: @UnpredictablyUsPodcast Facebook: Unpredictably Us Podcast  Email: Unpredictablyuspodcast@gmail.com https://linktr.ee/unpredictablyuspodcast

Life sucks right now... Right? There is nothing we can do about it though... Wrong! Right now we have an incredible opportunity to create a unique value for ourselves. If you are stuck in your house for the next 30+ days you really have 2 choices: You can choose to lay your head down and take the beating currently being applied and say, “why me?” You can keep your head up and identify a way to lessen the impact should something like this happen again. So in the next 30 days, learn a skill, or create something that can never be taken from you. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/learn-for-2/message

I don’t often find myself in such a frustrated state of mind. I tend to be somewhat fragile when it comes to how the world works. Especially when I feel it is completely broken. At each turn of the wheel I find one more system in place to keep the masses in check. And around each corner is yet another trick up the marketing sleeve to ensure we part with our cash for the things we do not truly need.There has to be a moment in our history where it all made sense to set this all up the way that it is. Right? It had to make sense to the human race to fight for and divide up our planet so that groups of people at the top could horde all the wealth. Right? So they could say they own a thing and then tax you. And then tell you that you need a thing they own so they could take the money they pay you to work, back and then charge you tax for the effort counting their money. Right? There must have been a moment in our history where this all made sense.So far the moment in our history where this all made sense has eluded me. I have not put a historians effort to figure it all out, but I am trying. I will also concede that a lot of good also happened as a result of the argument I am placing before you. However I believe that the system in place no longer fits in the world we live in. That the simple fact that a select few can horde the wealth, and I’m talking more money that large parts of the planets collective wealth, seems more like a perversion of an antiquated system than by someone being able to innovate in todays age. Yes, there is macro-innovation, where by someone invents a thing that generates wealth. Or starts a business that makes them wealthy etc but is off the back of the system that is rigged to do so.So why all this complaining. Well, it is becoming more and more evident to me that our collective knowledge is sinking. Our copy cat culture keeps us from questions. The fear based media outlets keep us buying what the big businesses or governments need us to buy. That our lack of time to learn is fleeting and that the effort required to have an opinion these days comes in headlines with no fact checking or actual conviction. So in a weird way, this podcast is a call to action. A challenge to all who listen to be better. Do more and act in a responsible way. Don’t be a zombie, be a better human.Thanks everyone for listening! I am keen to get questions from you so that I can adjust and do more with the show. So you can reach out to me via email (podcast@unplugyourself.net) Instagram (@unplug_your_self) or twitter (@unplugyour_self). I’d really like to hear what you think, topics you want covered and if that’s not your bag, just some general feedback. Also make sure you go to iTunes and give the show some stars and feedback. It all helps. Just remember, by leveraging your self awareness, managing your mindset, having mindfulness and building your emotional intelligence you can unlock your negativity and be the person you want to be!

Ana Rivero: Welcome, welcome to "Community Association Matters". You get to see a name with a face. Finally, and I'm so glad to have you back in the 2020s and new year. So hopefully we'll do a few more of these, podcast vlogs, if you will. And I'm so glad that you guys are back with us and joining us. We have some great new ideas and topics that we're going to be discussing over the upcoming months. And I hope you continue to join us in the future.  So, as you know, our podcasts are sponsored by Allied Property Group. So Allied Property Group is a full service, condominium and homeowner association management firm. We have been serving South Florida since 2003 so a little bit over 17 years, and we can do onsite and portfolio management. So I hope you reach out to us. our web information and contact information will be available at the end of the, of the vblog.  Today is interesting because we have Sal from Jurado and Associates. Jurado law. Perfect. Sal and I have been working together for many, many years. And we were just talking about some exciting news. We've opened up an office in the Fort Myers, Naples area, so now we can service condo through the Southwest Florida corridors. So we're very excited about that. We hope that you guys will, that hopefully this will reach you and you'll be able to contact us and, and learn a little bit about our company. So, Sal has been working with us for, I don't know how long Sal Jurado: 10  12 years, Ana Rivero: Something like that.  Sal Jurado: Yeah.  Ana Rivero: We look very young, so I know it's hard to believe, but we really have been working together that long. So Sal, tell us a little bit about yourself.  Sal Jurado: Yes. My name is Salvador Jurado, of Jurado Law Group. I've been practicing in the area of condominium and homeowners association law since 2006. This is what we do on a day to day basis. We represent both condos. And HOAs.  I teach a class at the FIU College of Law on community association law. So we are very familiar with, you know, all the trending topics, you know, that are, that are coming up. and looking forward to talking about emotional support animals. Ana Rivero: And Sal has three boys.  Sal Jurado: Yes. And they keep me very busy. Ana Rivero: Well, the reason why we asked you here today is because recently, HUD came out with some new guidelines for emotional support animals and service animals. And that is a very hot topic in not only condominium in HOAs, but also in multifamily and residential properties with landlords. And, it's been, kind of like the wild west for the last few years. There's been a lot of new areas that have developed and that I think giving people more freedom to have these emotional support animals that I'm sure are very important and do serve a role. But the fear is always, where's that balance? Right? There's the balance between someone's rights and somebody else's rights. So, to start off what do you want to tell us about the differences between what a service animal is and what as, an emotional support animal.  Sal Jurado: Yes. And that's an important distinction. Before I get into the service animal and the emotional support animal, I do want to read through, what the intent of the HUD laws are. So you have what's called the Fair Housing Act, right. And I'm going to read it verbatim: The Fair Housing Act states that it is unlawful for a housing provider to refuse to make a reasonable accommodation that a person with a disability may need in order to have equal opportunity to enjoy and use a dwelling. So in a nutshell, what that means is if you need an animal to allow you to enjoy your residence, just like any other person kind of thing. Then you should have the right to be able to bring that animal with you into your, into your dwelling. So the rule has been made, it's a good rule. It has, you know, good intentions. But like Ana said, you need a balance, because you do have homeowners that they push and they push and they try to take advantage of this rule.  So the first question, you know, that needs to be answered is, you know what Ana was saying? Is there a service involved? Or is it an emotional support animal? And the reason why you want to ask that question first is because you know they are different, and there's different standards that apply to each one. So to get into service animals, a service animal can only be a dog. Okay? It cannot be a cat. It cannot be an alligator. I saw it on the news the other day, which was crazy, but it could only be a dog and it has to be a dog, that is trained to assist, you know, with a disability and it requires training. It's harder. I don't see service animal requests as often as I see, the support animal requests. And you'll see why. So a service animal can only be a dog. And number two, it has to be specifically trained to assist the individual with his disability. Ana Rivero: Right. Okay. So like a blind person, perfect example, a guide dog helping him with, you know, accessibility to correct different areas.  Sal Jurado: For example, you know, a dog assisting an individual who's blind. So support animals, that's where, you know, it gets a little gray. A support animal. It doesn't have to be a dog. It can be a cat. It can be a rabbit. It can be a  miniature horse. The other day I saw on the news, an individual who was claiming a beehive, a storm of bees, was her emotional support animals, which is crazy. Yeah, I've seen it. I've seen alligators, individuals requesting that alligators be emotional support animals. So it gets a little trickier with emotional support animals. The purpose of these guidelines is to assist housing providers in, you know, what steps should they take? What questions should they be asking? What questions should they be asking themselves?  And you make a good point. You know, these rules don't only apply to community associations, they apply to any housing provider. So specifically landlords. I represent several landlords and these issues come up just as often as they come up in the condos and the HOAs. So that's the main difference between service and emotional support animals. as we get into this, you'll see that the questions you ask are different depending on whether it's one or the other. Now, one thing that's important is just because an individual requests that you make an accommodation under the service animal side of the rules. That doesn't mean that he then cannot, if that doesn't work out, he can then ask for permission as an emotional support animal. So it doesn't end like, let's say you determine it's not a service animal. It doesn't end there because it may still qualify as a support animal, allowing him to be able to, you know, have the animal with him.  Now regarding condos and HOAs, right. The first thing an HOA needs to ask themselves is, do we even have the right to prevent an animal? So before you get into the whole emotional support, animal or service animal, the first thing a board needs to determine is, do my documents even give me the right to say no, because if it's a set of documents that are silent, they don't say anything, then you're not even in the position to even say no because board's powers are limited to Florida law or whatever's in the declaration  Ana Rivero: So quick question along those lines. a lot of documents may be silent as to pets. Some have guidelines as to what and not, implies that a pet is allowed, but it's also usually under a rule section of the governing documents. So when a board decides they want to change the rule. How does that impact this?  Sal Jurado: Okay, so good question, so if you have a set of rules that are recorded and they're part of the declaration. If you're gonna change what the rule says, if it's a material change, you're going to need a vote by the owners, and it's usually a two-thirds vote for passing. If the board is simply passing a rule to help clarify what the intent of the declaration is, so for example, let's say, the declaration, you know, a good example is, you know, if the declaration says, you know, no dogs allowed, right, but we're going to pass a rule that if the declaration says no dogs allowed unless you get our approval. But we're going to pass a rule that clarifies the steps in order to get our approval right. You're not really changing what the declaration is saying. So in that situation, the board itself can simply just pass a rule at a board meeting. You don't need a membership vote, but if, if you're going from no pets restrictions to 100% pet restrictions there, you're changing, you know, the intent of the declaration. So there you wouldn't need a membership vote.  Ana Rivero: So this is the clarification or where we're seeing the biggest problems is in condos then have the no-pet rule. Correct. Cause the ones that have a pet rule, you can maybe ask that they show vaccines or that they provide proof that the animal is not going to be a danger or that they're going to be in a leash. You can modify some of the rules governing the actual animal, but in a no-pet rule or in a condo that has it in their documents, that there can be no pets. How does this affect them?  Sal Jurado: Meaning a condominium or their documents say no pets allowed? Yes. So the whole, the whole purpose of these, of the Fair Housing Act is to tell homeowners, I mean, housing providers, condos, hos or landlords, the purpose of the FHA is to tell them if you have a no pet policy. Right? You need to make a reasonable accommodation and allow the individual to have a pet if he meets certain criteria and it goes back to every individual has the right to use and enjoy their dwelling. And if the individual can establish that the only way he can use or enjoy their dwelling is with my dog or with my cat, then you have to make an accommodation. So this definitely applies to any association that has a no pet policy. It doesn't matter what your declaration says. Your declaration can be black and white and say, no pets allowed. It doesn't matter. It's a federal law. And  Ana Rivero: It supersedes, I guess, condo documents, correct?  Sal Jurado: Yes. So if the condo documents say no pets allowed, but the individual requests a reasonable accommodation, meaning they're asking, please make an exception for me based on this disability that I have, as long as they follow certain steps, they have to grant that request.  Ana Rivero: So let's talk about that. What are the certain steps that they have to follow, or what are some of the things that we can now do that we maybe weren't allowed to do before? Sal Jurado: Correct. A couple pointers, just practical pointers. You cannot, many, many documents allow you to charge what's called the pet fee, right? Many landlords, you know, require a pet fee, right? You cannot charge a pet fee to either a service animal or an emotional support animal. So let's say the individual, you know, those, what they have to do to get, you know, their, their animal qualified at that point. You know, they're not even considered an animal, but by law. Got it. Okay. I'm sorry. They're not considered a pet. Right. But they are a right.  Ana Rivero: So along those lines, can they do a security deposit or is that no?  Sal Jurado: No Feeing. Yes. It's considered a pet fee. So a mistake that landlords and boards make often is, you know, they charge a pet fee after you get approved. Okay? You got to prove. But we need a pet fee to protect the common, you know, the common elements or common areas that's not allowed for the, for the emotional support or, or service animals. and then like I said earlier, you know, these assistance, animal assistant assistance animals are not considered pets. So. The no pet policy does not apply. That's the way the law is written. Now, if, if for some reason the animal they're requesting, they can't provide, you know, a letter from a doctor, they can provide documentation justifying the need for it, then it is considered a pet and the no-pet policy applies. Okay. Well, that's a simple way. Okay.  Ana Rivero: Looking along the lines of the letter from a doctor. What we see a lot are certifications on the internet or a doctor. We're in Florida and you get a certification from a doctor, from another country or from Wyoming. Does that still count?  Sal Jurado: You know, that is the area that I have the most issues with and in these HUD guides, first of all, these HUD guidelines, the set that came out is dated January 28th, 2020. It's about 15 pages long and it walks you through the analysis and it does touch upon that subject, regarding what's called documentation from the internet and they don't really answer the question., but they do give you some recommendations. So what the guidelines say is if, if they show up with, with a random letter from, like you said, Wyoming, right? And it's a doctor that is not really treating them. they simply just pay the fee and they got the letter online. That's not good enough, but that's what they say. That's not good enough. But then, but then they go on to say, you know, there are many legitimate healthcare services that do online evaluations. So if it's a, if it's legitimate and if the doctor is treating them and they are a patient of the doctor than it is okay. So we get into the whole, you know, is he really a patient or not? Now, one thing I've done in the past. And I don't see an issue with this is I've actually called the doctor's office and I've asked them, is this individual a patient? And that's it. I don't, I'm not allowed to ask anything regarding, you know, what the disability is, you know, the underlying conditions, cause that's all protected. But the way I see it is if I get a letter from a doctor telling me he's my patient, right? There's nothing wrong with me calling the doctor's office. Hey, I just want to confirm that this is your patient. I've done that several times. And believe it or not, most of the time, I actually, pretty much all the time, they have confirmed that the individual is a patient at that doctor's office. So that's one way to weed out, you know, the random letter from Wyoming.  Ana Rivero: Okay.  Sal Jurado: So that's, that's what they said about the doctors.  Ana Rivero: There's, there's some, there's some things. So hopefully that will strike a little bit of fear in anybody who wants to do something fraudulently.  Sal Jurado: Yes,  yes. And you bring up a good point. The purpose of these guidelines is not only to assist, you know, the condos or the landlord, but also the individuals who really do need an emotional support animal because. There's been so much fraud in this area that many of the housing providers, you know, are jaded. They really don't believe you. So, you know, they jumped to conclusions. But now at least the individuals who really do need, you know, a support animal, they know what they need to provide, and they know that landlords know what they need to provide. So it should make it easier for those individuals.  Ana Rivero: What are some of the things that they ...  Sal Jurado: so these guidelines are, they're broken down into, into service animals and then into, you know, support animals. So. Let me walk through the questions. We have several questions. Okay. So these are questions that we can ask.  Yeah. These are questions that you can ask and then more important. These are questions that you should be asking yourself when doing your analysis. Okay. So for, for service animals, first of all, it defines a service animal as any dog that is individually trained to assist the individual, what we discussed earlier. Okay? So if you get a request. for a service animal, the first question you need to ask is, is the animal the dog? Okay? If it is a dog, then you move on to the next question. Okay. If it's not a dog, let's say you're out of service, but he can still try to get that animal in as an emotional support animal. Okay, so the first question you want to ask yourself is, is it a dog? No. If it is a dog, the next question is, and I'm going to read it. Cause if they wrote it verbatim, is the dog readily okay? Is it readily apparent that the dog is trained to do work or perform tasks for the benefit of an individual with a disability? So first you ask, is it a dog? And then he's a trained okay. And is trained to do work to assist that specific disability? The blind individual is a perfect, is a perfect example. Okay. So  Ana Rivero: in other words, if something is obvious per se?  Sal Jurado: Yes. Okay. Yeah. So if the answer to that one is yes, then it's service time, then you have to give them, the term is a reasonable accommodation, but all that means is you got to let him have the dog. Ana Rivero: And I think for, at least from the board side, I don't think any board member has had an issue with service animals. The issue has come in with the, Sal Jurado:  Correct. I agree 100%. now you, you made a good point because there an issue as to what is a readily apparent, disability of an individual who's blind is easy, you know, but, you know, I've dealt often with PTs, I mean PTSD, right? Which you don't know. they can tell you they have that, but as a, as a manager, as a board, you don't really know. Yeah. So then, they defined, readily apparent, you know, as individuals blind, a dog pulling a wheelchair, you know, so on and so forth. now if, if the answer is no, like, I don't know, like we go back, is it a dog? Yes or no? Is it trained to assist with that disability? Yes or no? If it's a disability that's not readily apparent, you don't know. Then you go into the next couple questions and they are, is the animal required because of a disability? And then what work or task has the animal been trained to perform? Okay? You are not allowed to, you're not allowed to get into the specifics. Like if, if a doctor writes a letter. The, because of the HIPAA laws, they can get into like the diagnosis. But what I often see is, you know, the individual has a disability, you know, the individual needs this specific dog to assist them with the disability. In my opinion, that's enough. As long as you know, you're able to verify that the doctor did treat that patient. Okay. Which is what, which is what is, which is what I said earlier. Okay. So then service animals are, are, are, are easier.  Ana Rivero: But before you go into service animals real quick, before, I believe that miniature horses were allowed to be a service animal. Is that, no longer.  Sal Jurado: It's funny, the new guidelines do not talk about the miniature horses. So, you know, I've talked to other attorneys about the miniature horses and everyone's split, you know, some say. If the new guidelines don't mention it doesn't apply anymore, right? Some individuals say, yes, it still applies this. This is just like an amendment to what was there before. So I know it. I would say yes, it's, it's still, it's still in play Ana Rivero: Interesting. Sal Jurado: But I still haven't had the miniature horses come up yet. They're all gonna come up many times, but not,  Ana Rivero: but I thought it was interesting that they did not mention it vs before it was specified. Sal Jurado: So. Correct. Correct.  Ana Rivero: Moving onto emotional support  Sal Jurado: Regarding emotional support animals. it gets into the questions. For the emotional support animals.  Ana Rivero: And again, these are questions that we as either board members, managers, or landlords are asking ourselves regarding the applicant. Sal Jurado: Correct. And then it gets into, you know, what the doctors, when you can ask the documents and all that. So the first question is. Has the individual requested a reasonable accommodation, which basically means kind of, kind of have the animal, that is asked to get or keep an animal in connection with a physical or mental impairment or disability? So the first, the first question is, you know, have they even asked, you know, now one thing that's important is the request does not have to be in writing. It could be verbal. I've had many managers know they didn't ask for it in writing. It doesn't matter if it could. It could be verbal. Now, if I were to represent, you know, a homeowner seeking a reasonable accommodation, I would recommend that they do put it in writing. Just because it's all, it's clear to everyone knows specifically what you're requesting. Okay. There's, there's no confusion. okay. So if the answer's yes that they have asked, then you proceed to the next question. okay. And the next question is, does the individual have an observable disability or does the housing provider already have information? Giving them reason to believe that the person has a disability. So you know, if the individual is blind, he's in a wheelchair. Those are readily apparent disabilities, right? If it's a mental condition or emotional condition, that's where it gets. Tricky   Ana Rivero: You have a tenant that perhaps is former military and you know that you know what? Just from conversing with them or something that they wrote in the application, then that also is considered correct. Previous knowledge.  Sal Jurado: That situation does happen though. It happens not often, but it does happen. Then it gets into, you know, the difference between the observable and the non-observable disabilities. And it gives you examples, you know, blindness is for the visible ones. And then it gets into, you know, the mental conditions for them for the non-visible is all right. So if, if it's not readily apparent, if the individual has a disability, you move on to the next question. has the person requesting the accommodation provided information. The reasonably supports that the person seeking the accommodation has a disability. That's where we get into if they have a mental issue or if they're former military and they have PTSD, you know, how they provided, you know, documentation supporting their claim. and that's where, you know, what I normally see is, you know, that the letter from the doctor and you can't, You cannot request the specifics of how he's been treated or what it is. But if the doctor gives you a letter like I said earlier, that says, you know, John DOE has a disability. He needs a dog or a cat, you know, to assist them with his condition. My personal opinion, that's enough. Okay. Like I wouldn't take the chance of denying him and had an issue with her. Another thing, if you, if you improperly denied individual, you know that they can report you to HUD and even dealing with HUD, you know? Right. Yeah opens up a whole new can of worms...  Yes. a whole new can of worms.   Okay. Now then we get into. Ana Rivero: And that was there before. I think right up until now, nothing's really changed. Nope.  Sal Jurado: There's not, the new guidelines don't really change. , what attorneys were doing before or managers doing before. It just, it just help. It helps. The managers will set up a set of best practices on what they should be asking themselves and. What information they can be requesting from individuals. Like for example, for example, you know, I've seen associations have like a form, like a preprinted form that says, you know, name of the doctor, day of treatment, you know, describe the condition that you have. And then it has to be notarized. You know, that they're very clear that that cannot be done. You cannot require, you cannot have preprinted forms. You can not require the doctor to state under oath, you know, this is what I'm requesting. Right. It cannot, you cannot require that anything be notarized. So that is a change. Cause they came up very clearly saying, you cannot do that.  Ana Rivero: interesting. Sal Jurado: Yes. So okay. The documents from the internet. Okay. So then you move on to the next question. How does the person requesting the accommodation. Provided information, which reasonably supports that the animal does work, performs tasks, provides assistance under, provides therapeutic emotional support with respect to the disability. So we go back to the letter, you know, once, once you get a letter from, whether it be a medical doctor or a psychologist, psychiatrist, you know, that States, you know, the individual hasn't had a disability. He needs this animal. At that point. My position has always been you grant the reasonable accommodation, but there are exceptions. You know, I've had situations where the board is concerned that the dog is, dog is aggressive or too aggressive animal, right? Which is a tall, which is a tricky situation because you know, what the guidelines, what not this set, but what the former set of guidelines stated was that whenever you have an animal that's considered a threat, you know, you need to base your decision on facts. Not a hunch. It can be based off of, you know, I think that dog might be aggressive because a it's a pitbull Ana Rivero: Should have bit somebody, you are shown aggressive tendencies.  Sal Jurado:  Aggressive tendencies. Exactly. And then what pit bulls, you know, pit bulls are illegal in Dade county they come, right? Right. this supersedes the Dade County law. So just because the individual has a pit bull, right? But this way, even if the condo docs say no pets, even if it's a pit bull and there's a law that says no pitbull such as Dade County, this law, the FHA supersedes all that, right? So if the, if the individual requesting the animal provides a letter from a doctor, provided that the dog is not aggressive and the board has no reason to believe it's aggressive, then you have to make an exception or you set out to have the pitbull,  Ana Rivero: Let me ask you a question because I think what also tends to happen is that you have a no pet policy and you have an applicant, they come in, they say they have no pets on your application, but they move in two weeks later, a week later, there's the dog, and all of a sudden, so you send a letter and you say, Hey, this is a no pet. You know, condo, all of a sudden they come back and they're like, well, it's an emotional support. And yeah. So  Sal Jurado: That happens a lot.  Ana Rivero:  Oh, it happens all the time. And I think that that is, is a stickler for board members because they feel that they were lied to and should be reason enough to either tell that person will, you're no longer approved, or you have to get rid of the animal. Yes. So how does that,  Sal Jurado: They address that? They address that and they're very clear that the request can be made at any point in time. They can even be made after. For example, I represent a lot of landlords, and let's say the landlord has a no pet policy, right? The guy shows up with a Great Dane. Huge dog, right? So. I send the tenant a seven-day notice to cure, which is what the law requires. You have seven days to get rid of the dog. You know, our lease says no pets. At that point, after I've sent him the seven-day notice, then that's when for the first time ever, well, emotional support. Right. So the new guidelines, they're clear in that that request can be made at any, at any point in time. Okay. So just because they asked for it at a later point in time and they're not upfront with it at the beginning, that doesn't mean you can say no. You still have to go through the analysis, you know, is if it's a service animal, you know, is it a dog? You know, are they trained? If it's an emotional support animal, did they give me documentation supporting the disability and the need for the dog to assist with a disability? Right. It's still the same.  Ana Rivero: Is there anything else that we haven't covered that they've added or that they might, listeners?  Sal Jurado: Let me see. There's a, let me see. Yes. they do have a new section on, on unique animals, right. Which is maybe to deal with, which is mainly to deal with the alligator and the, and the swarm of bees issue. You know? So. With regards to unique animals.  I'm just gonna read it. If the individual is requesting to keep a unique type of animal that is not commonly kept, then the requests, then the request store has a substantial burden of demonstrating a disability-related therapeutic need for the specific animal. So the, you know, the individual has to, prove why a swarm of bees is what I need. Interesting. Clarify. It clarifies that.  Ana Rivero: I wonder what could be the possible argument. I'm sure that had to have been some sort of logic behind that. The alligator I saw, and I think the gentleman had him from when he was, you know, a baby. So maybe a while down and we'll can be, you know, friendly.  And it's funny because I recently, my mom was recently injured and she stayed at a rehab place and they had. It’s not a service animal, but they have therapy dogs going into the nursing home, to help the patients feel better. And I think we're seeing that also with hospitals now. Yeah, totally. I know it's a different animal together as far as, you know, there's a big difference in the hospitals, but I think it's interesting how there is truth to animals being.  Sal Jurado: The law has a good intent, right? Because like you said, there are individuals who do need an animal to assist them with their life and that I totally get that. The problem is that you have those bad apples, right, who don't really need it and they just want to get around my pet fee or they just want to get around on a no pet policy. But it's taken advantage of the FHA.  Ana Rivero: And I think what's important is for board members and landlords to understand that these provisions are very, you know, HUD is a very serious, they could claim discrimination. That's a very serious accusation and can have tremendous, liability potential for the association as a whole. So they should be very careful. And obviously we always recommend when we get a request like that, let's send it off to the attorney and have the attorney review it. And like you, yourself said, you called to follow up with the doctor and it's always better that the attorney handle that and don't you get personally involved, you know? But, I'm glad to see these out. I hope that it does help. with the situation, and I thank you for coming out and helping us learn a little bit more. And thank you for sending that to me. I appreciate it.  So for our listeners out there, and you want to share a little bit about maybe your website or phone number where they can get ahold of you if they wanted to get more information,  Sal Jurado: You can visit our website at www.juradolaw.com, or you can call our office at (305) 594-4050. Ana Rivero: And he told me that he does visit the Fort Myers area, so he also does, I guess, work throughout all of Florida.  Sal Jurado: Also Palm Beach, Broward Dade, Monroe and I do some work in, Collier County and Lee County as well.  Ana Rivero: Perfect. And of course, you can reach us at www.alliedpropertygroup.net  or give us a call at (305) 232-1579 It's nice to meet you all. Have a great day.  Thank you.  

Everyone is out there talking about letting your greatness out... but what do they mean by that? Brandon Handley 0:01 Hey, hey what is going on prosperity practice. I hope that you are having a fantastic Unknown Speaker 0:09 day. I hope that you are feeling all of who you are today. Brandon Handley 0:16 Why do I say that? A lot of times we wake up and we're just we're not quite ready to face the day or we're not full of Unknown Speaker 0:27 energy and we're not. Brandon Handley 0:29 We feel like something's off. Unknown Speaker 0:33 I want to remind you that you are energy. You You are energy, Everything about you is energy. Unknown Speaker 0:46 And that was brought to me. Unknown Speaker 0:49 I think that a big fan of Bob Proctor and it was once that was that he kind of said, Hey, you know, are you tired or All these other things and no man those are those are things that we learn how to say those are things that are learned tendencies. Our mom or dad or grandparents or somebody new come home, they look tired little long day. And, you know, or they say I'm exhausted and that was that was what we learned. That was what they said. And that's what somebody before them said. Where they wake up and they're like, oh, man, here we go again. Yeah, here we go again. Let's get it let's let's go get it. What is it? Yeah, there's all kinds of things to to go after today. You know, all kinds of things to go after today. So that's why I say I hope you're feeling all of who you are. That's just the beginning. That's just the beginning of all of who you are. not get too deep into that. Today, but let's just say, you know, everybody runs around and they say, you know, see God and everything or I am part of this universe, the universe is a part of me which you know, there is no separation. Right? There is no separation between you and the universe. There's nothing that that says, Hey, where's the separation? That's my question to you. Where's the separation between you and the universe? Where's the separation between you? And God? Where's separation between you? and anything else that you can think of?

In this episode, we discuss trusting your intuition. We will share some tips on how you can hear your intuition. Your intuition doesn't stop when we fail or screw up or "do it wrong" or life isn't going where we thought it should - No shame! No blame! Your intuition is lovingly leading you- even when you aren't loving yourself. It loves your kids and you and will show you the way - this is a journey of forgiving yourself. You learned this behavior - we all did. So be easier on yourself and you'll be able to hear that still, small voice easier. Tell yourself what you need to hear right now.   Rhonda Noordyk: Welcome to this episode of the Divorce Conversations for Women. I'm your host, Rhonda Noordyk. You know there's one common thread facing women that are contemplating divorce, and it's that we don't know what we don't know, right? And so, I want to make sure to help you ask the tough questions so that you get the answers that you need. Rhonda Noordyk: In today's episode, we are going to dive into the topic of INTUITION, which is something that I think women really need to learn how to tap into and trust a little bit. So I'm so excited about our topic for today. This episode is sponsored by Courageous Contemplation. It is my online course for helping women navigate through the divorce process, so be sure to check out womensfinancialwellnesscenter.com/events. So, I am here today with Cyrina and I want to just thank you so much for joining us. Cyrina Talbott: Oh, thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to share this. Rhonda Noordyk: So, I know that people can certainly reach out to you. We're going to include all of your contact information and all the good things about you. But I just want to get started in our conversation today about intuition. And let's just start by saying, if a woman came to you and said, "Gosh, you know I really feel like I need to make a decision or something just doesn't feel right or whatever." Like let's just talk about, if you could tell them one thing, right, what would that one thing be? Cyrina Talbott: I think the thing that's the hardest is to trust yourself. You know? And as I was thinking about this too... when you're going through divorce, that's really hard. That's a really big ask because maybe you're looking at this whole situation that you're finding yourself in and going, "okay. Well, I don't know how to trust myself. I made this decision and it didn't work out." Or a lot of times when anything is falling apart, whether it's a business or marriage or our health or whatever it is, we're kind of, life is showing us areas that do need to change. Cyrina Talbott: And even if your partner is hugely at fault, there may be some things you're seeing like, "Oh, okay, I did that." You know where you're responsible. And in light of that, still being able to trust yourself even if you're feeling bad or even if you're realizing there's things or patterns that are needing to change or whatever. Cyrina Talbott: But it's so important to trust your intuition and trust yourself because there are no rules. I mean, there are no rules about divorce, whether you should do this with your finances or that with your in-laws or that with your kids. Like there are no rules. Everybody's situation is so different and so unique that you're really the one that can decide. Cyrina Talbott: And so, you can take all the advice from everybody, but at the end of the day, it's you and to really, my encouragement is to trust that and be like, "Yeah, I'm, I'm not going to defer this to all the people I think are smarter than me. This is me, my family, my kids, my life." And just feel a little bit like, "Yeah, I can do this." Even if everything's falling apart, that's okay. Rhonda Noordyk: Well, and I think to your point, I think a lot of times in situations where women have spent years, sometimes decades squelching their intuition, I think it takes time for us to gain the confidence like, "Oh my gosh, I was right." Or, "Man, I should have listened to this gut feeling that I had several years ago, sometimes decades ago." Rhonda Noordyk: And so, I think there's this aspect of getting reacquainted with our intuition, right? And maybe testing it in small ways to help build our confidence so that then when we do feel like, "You know what, gosh, that's right." I mean, it's interesting because I think guys do such a better job at this. I mean, many of my male colleagues, if you were to ask them what's your key for business? It's like, "I trust my gut. If I get a bad sense from somebody, I'm not working with them." Rhonda Noordyk: So like for women, if you're interviewing attorneys and you're like, "I don't know. I didn't really get a good vibe but everybody says they're really great so I'm going to work with them." No, your gut told you in the very beginning there was something not right. Cyrina Talbott: Exactly. Like exactly how you just processed it. Is like, I don't know. Own that. That's your intuition talking to you. And yeah, I think guys do it better because they're encouraged to and we're supposed to be nice. I don't want to hurt their feelings. Well, hurt their feelings. When I talk to women, they're like, "I don't want to be..." Use a swear word but like a brat. I'm like actually, "Do that more. That's a really good thing to do." Cyrina Talbott: And like you said, guys are fine with it, but it's where we want to be nice and we don't want to hurt feelings. We don't want to make waves and it's real and it's practice. I help my clients practice because it's really like learning a different language. You have this part of you that, like you said, maybe you've been denying forever. Maybe you've been trying to be nice and make everybody else happy, and it's learning this part of you and how it communicates is exactly that. You just don't feel right and you don't have to explain it to anyone. And you don't have to be nice if you don't feel right. Cyrina Talbott: And you can do it in a polite way, you can just be like, "Well, I'm going to look and see what my other options are." It's simple, but trust that and do that. Rhonda Noordyk: For sure. Right. Well, and I think with all, when we look at the divorce process, a lot of the women, if you're listening today and you're like, "Oh my gosh, I'm still in that contemplation stage. I haven't officially made a decision or maybe a year in the midst of it, you're like, "Oh my gosh, I should have listened to my intuition in the beginning because now I'm in a spot where I'm overwhelmed or whatever." Rhonda Noordyk: I think just being aware that A, we need to tap into that and B not to feel bad if we haven't tapped into it in the past because each situation's going to be different. So it's like, well, we can't change the fact that you should have listened to your intuition 20 years ago, but what can we do about that now? Cyrina Talbott: Yeah. Rhonda Noordyk: You know. Cyrina Talbott: And that's the other thing I really want to share about your intuition is it isn't a jerk. It's like how you would respond to your best friend. So a lot of times we think our intuition is like, "Oh my gosh, I can't believe you did that. You're such an idiot." And our intuition isn't doing that. Or isn't going well, I told you so. You made your bed, now you have to lie in it. It's always kind. Cyrina Talbott: And how would you respond to your best friend? So let's pretend roles are reversed. It's your best friend coming to you. Maybe they've done something that's legit dumb. Are you going to be like, "Oh my gosh, I can't believe you did that again." Like just get away. You know you're going to encourage them. You're going to look for the positive side of it, the thing they did right. Or you're just going to be like, "Oh my gosh," and give him a hug. That's what our intuition does. Cyrina Talbott: And it's just something that we don't talk about, we don't practice and we don't do and we have to learn. So yes, absolutely you can practice. I love that you said practice with little things because sometimes we bring this like, "Should I move across the country or stay here intuition?" Cyrina Talbott: And it's like gambling or rolling the dice and we're like, "Oh, I think I heard a yes." And then it doesn't work out and we say, "Oh, I'm horrible at that. I'll never do it again." And it's like, "No, just listen." This voice is kind, and chill, and always with you, and leading you and you can just start tuning in and listening because it's there. Cyrina Talbott: And I really believe women are way better once they start to do this again or practice, I think women do have all those feelings. We're just quick to ignore. Rhonda Noordyk: Yeah. Or we second guess it like, I mean if we look at Mel Robbins in her 5 Second Rule, which I'm sure most people have heard of and if not, they'll have to check it out as it's awesome, right? But in that 5 seconds, we have five seconds to say, "Okay, am I going to trust this or not?" And then we either talk ourselves and we just do it or we talk ourselves out of it. Cyrina Talbott: So, like what I do with people is I work with their subconscious when I'm doing rapid transformational therapy with people and it's like all these answers are here. And when you're doing that quick decision like that, when you just get a hit, some people call it, or you get a nudge, or you're being led to do something, right. It's your intuition. And if you stay in that and just do it, that's going to be a good thing. Instead of getting up in your conscious mind and being logical and talking yourself out of it and how much is this going to cost and blah, blah, blah. Cyrina Talbott: You know, all those things that she's saying don't do that. Just stick with that part of you that knows and is leading you right where you need to be. Rhonda Noordyk: Yeah, for sure. Well, so we've teed up, just some really great candid conversation around trusting your intuition. Let's talk about some tips. So if you're listening today, like yes, you can hear your intuition, but what are some tips on how to do that? Cyrina Talbott: Yeah, absolutely. So number one is practice. Don't expect to just be a genius at this to start. And practice with smaller things, but really just start tuning into this thing that's with you all the time throughout your day in little ways where you have maybe an inclination to call somebody or look something up or go in a certain direction. Practice that and have it be where it's not life or death and it's not like I'm good at this or bad at this. Have it be practice. Cyrina Talbott: Expect that you're not going to be fabulous at it to start if you have no experience with it. The other thing is our intuition talks to us in different ways. Some people journal, they journal all the time, everything and they get a lot of downloads that way. Some people it's if they're meditating or walking, like if you're taking a bath or talking to a friend, praying, but it's also, it's just that pause. Cyrina Talbott: It's anything we're doing where we're getting our mind to slow down a little bit, like breathing or not just letting that conversation in your mind go and go and go and go, whatever you do to slow that down or stop it. Some people dance, listen to music, whatever that is. Cyrina Talbott: Exercising for sure to be able to pause and listen, whatever that looks like for you. And you'll also know in the past when you just knew, there will be times when you just knew and you'll know, did you feel that in your stomach? Did you feel it in your heart? Did you have the whole body knowing? Was it while you were journaling where you just had clarity about something? Do you need to talk to yourself out loud? Like three things. Cyrina Talbott: And the other thing is really knowing that you can hear. There's nobody on the planet that's broken where they can't hear from their intuition. But I think sometimes we think we are. Like, "Oh yeah, I tried that and it didn't work. That works for other people. That's woo woo." But understand you can and as you're in this mess of either being in the middle of divorce or all the pain and agony at initiating it, right? If you're contemplating it, know that your intuition is absolutely going to lead you and guide you in the mess part too. Cyrina Talbott: So, you don't have to be perfectly chilled out, calm, meditating to hear from this, it's going to lead you in those times. And I think leads us more in those times when we are making hard decisions or going through a hard shift in our lives. A lot of times the shift is like, even though it seems like such a bad thing, it ends up being such a good thing. So much growth and learning and healing comes in those times, you can absolutely hear in the middle of a mess. Rhonda Noordyk: Yeah, absolutely. And I think women really use the divorce journey as an opportunity of self-discovery and that reconnection with their intuition and reconnection with things that have brought them joy in the past or things that they enjoyed doing or whatever. Right? Cyrina Talbott: Absolutely. Rhonda Noordyk: And so, I think this is a perfect time for women to be thinking about this kind of stuff. And again, just really relying on those kinds of gut feelings that, hey, something just doesn't feel right or this feels off or whatever. Because the divorce process in and of itself is very impersonal I guess. I mean, you're going through a process where the attorneys, this is pretty much what they do all day long. Some do a better job of others then it's not just a case or a file that it's actually somebody's life. Cyrina Talbott: Whole life. Rhonda Noordyk: Like their whole life. Cyrina Talbott: Yeah, wow. Rhonda Noordyk: And so, they do this a lot and certainly, I mean, they aren't thinking about necessarily like, "Hey, what is your intuition telling you?" I mean, you might just be in those meetings where something feels off and you maybe have to ask questions or step away or whatever. And so, having the awareness of this now, even before you start the process can be really, really valuable because you are going to have to tap into it. Rhonda Noordyk: And I also think, when you can have your intuition in combination with a good team of people that can come alongside and support you through this process, it's going to be really, really valuable for you because divorce often is going to be the most difficult thing that you've gone through or will go through. Most of the women that I talk to say, I would never want my worst enemy to have to go through this. It was awful, terrible, horrible. Right? Rhonda Noordyk: Now knowing that, how do we make it a little less terrible, horrible, right? Like how can we help women come out of it so they are stronger, and empowered, and have more clarity, and aren't beating themselves up for all the things that they should have done before, during, or after the marriage? Rhonda Noordyk: So, I think the intuition part is a really important part and you have tapped into some great tips on that. Let's talk about that it doesn't have to stop when we feel like we've done something wrong or that life isn't going where we thought it should go. Let's talk a little bit about that. Cyrina Talbott: Yeah. I think sometimes there's this idea, and I even as you're saying, we're using, listen to your intuition. But if you're in a meeting, just say, "I have some questions about this." This isn't something you have to be, "Well, my intuition said," because people are just going to dismiss you, totally. They're going to think you're nuts. Cyrina Talbott: So yeah, when we are in a place where we're looking at the mistakes we made or like I said, you're in this place of having it be a mess. Start listening. So, here's what I wanted to share about the voice of your intuition is kind. And it is there for your best interest. It isn't there to make you pay or learn your lessons or punish you or like I said, like told you so. It's there to encourage you in this time. Cyrina Talbott: Look, you're a human, we all make mistakes. There is no time in your life where you write yourself off and you put this big failure on you. But during divorce is what you want to do. You just want to say, "well, I screwed up. I'm a failure." Maybe you're not feeling like you deserve a good thing. Maybe you're watching how this is affecting your family or your kids and you're like, "Oh my gosh." And you're just beating yourself up. Cyrina Talbott: So, it's an invitation to let yourself off the hook. It's an invitation to be kind to yourself and it's an invitation to allow love into this area and know that you absolutely can hear this voice and that it's going to lead you. That it's not beating you up. And so you have your days, right? Like you said, the divorce lawyer, this is just their nine to five job and then they go home at night. Rhonda Noordyk: Yep. Cyrina Talbott: So your divorce lawyer and other people in your life that you're dealing with this, it isn't personal and this isn't what, it's just their job and it's not their whole life in their heart and everything, but it is yours. And so, the other thing about your intuition is it knows, it's there with you when you're making dinner, when the kids need help with their schoolwork, when you're going to bed alone. Cyrina Talbott: There's this humanity there that I think we can write ourselves off as a failure or that I don't, I should do this by myself, like you're saying, and not allow that support, right? You need a team. You need to walk through this with actual humans on the outside, but allow the support within yourself that's there, allow it in. Start listening. No, I want to tell you it's there first of all. Cyrina Talbott: And then allow it to tell you what you need to say, the conversations that you need to have. Allow it to encourage you, to lead you and not beat yourself up so much. Rhonda Noordyk: Yeah. Cyrina Talbott: Yeah. Rhonda Noordyk: Yeah, absolutely. And one of the things I was thinking of too, Cyrina was, for my clients as I'm working with them, if I had somebody that came to me and said, "Hey Rhonda, I'm just really feeling like whatever," we could pick any kind of as a situation, right? Like this just feels a little bit off to me. I'm not exactly sure how to handle it. I feel like I need to maybe go a different direction with somebody on my team, like whatever. Rhonda Noordyk: I am open to having those conversations and if somebody said, "Hey, my intuition is really telling me that maybe I need to switch attorneys, for example." I'm like, okay, well let's explore that. Right? I will never tell them to do something that is opposite of their intuition. I honor that right now. We will deal with whatever needs to get dealt with to either make that transition or make that shift or whatever. But I'm not afraid to have those conversations and to honor that that's maybe the direction that they want to go with part of the divorce process or whatever it is, right? Rhonda Noordyk: Because there's going to be a lot of decisions along the way that I feel like when you have at least one person on your team that's going to understand that piece of it, I can help facilitate the conversation around those decisions. Right? Cyrina Talbott: I like that. It's so valuable and it's so honoring to the human that has to have this affect their whole life. Yeah. Rhonda Noordyk: Yeah. Cyrina Talbott: Absolutely. Rhonda Noordyk: Yeah, for sure. Because it's a big decision and I'm not in every single conversation. I'm certainly in a lot of them, right? But I'm helping facilitate and guide and make the right introductions and put the right people in front of them and help them navigate through all the pieces. I mean, my business is really set up to be the one-stop-shop. So, no matter where they're at in the process, I can help them navigate through finding the right people, asking the right questions, getting the clarity that they need or whatever. Rhonda Noordyk: But having that two-way communication with your team is going to be really important because we can't read your mind. Cyrina Talbott: Yeah. Yeah. It's so important. And like I said before, some people are like, it's life or death or do or die. And it can just be like, "Oh, I have a question. I was wondering about that, or could we look at this a different way?" So let's say your intuition, this was the other thing I wanted to talk about is a lot of times we get a nudge or a knowing or a gut feeling from our intuition and then we stop. And it's like a no. And I really encourage people to stay in it long enough to be like, "Okay, what's the next step?" Cyrina Talbott: Sit with that long enough. If it's saying don't do that or question that, or you just have a knowing like, "Okay, don't go in that direction, sit there a while, and then listen, and then you're going to get more information. I think a lot of times people kind of do it half-baked where they get something and then they just run with it or stop it or whatever. Sit in it and keep listening because you're going to get more guidance, more knowledge. Cyrina Talbott: And like you said, bring it to your team, flash it out. See where it goes. And it's okay if you screw it up here too, like that's not a big deal. You're practicing and you're learning and you're never going to get to the point where you stop hearing, can't hear anymore and screw it all up and make irreversible damage. There's always going to be a fix or a U-turn or like a plan B, you know, it's fine. Rhonda Noordyk: Right, right. Well, and I think the other thing too is a lot of times women we process based on the information that we have. And so, sometimes it, like you said, it is a matter of, "Okay, perhaps I need more information. Maybe I need to ask more questions to be able to get some clarity on what direction to go." And so, I had a lady I was talking to today on the phone and she's like, "Rhonda, my husband filed, I don't really have access to money. I've moved to a different state. I'm going to have to file in the state that we're living in. I don't feel like I have access to money. I don't think I can get a credit card, blah, blah, blah." Rhonda Noordyk: And I said, "Okay, what are the facts around that? What's your credit score?" "Well, I don't really know." "Okay. Well, that might be a good place for us to start." Right? And then she's like, "Okay. Well, I don't know that I could retain an attorney." "Well, okay. Have we had some conversations around that?" I think sometimes we don't explore things the way that we can because like in this particular case, this relationship has been abusive for five or six years. Rhonda Noordyk: So, she's not used to hearing that stuff or hearing... I'm like, "Let's just get the facts, right? Like, if you don't know what your credit score is and you don't know if indeed you've been denied for a credit card and your bank might not be able to help you, but have we had those conversations? Right? So, then you go out, you look at the banks, you look at the credit unions and maybe you walk in and you're like, "Okay, I just got a really good sense about this one. I can't put my finger on it, but I feel like this group might be the one to be able to help me." And then you explore it from there. Right? Rhonda Noordyk: So, there's just so many good examples of how this can help guide and direct. But I do feel like trust your intuition, trust your gut feeling, and then also get some additional facts around it too. Cyrina Talbott: Absolutely. And I think our intuition will lead us to that as well. But with the example that you just shared, you have somebody with that negative. You've just got this negative, maybe someone making them feel stupid or incompetent and it's just running. And a lot of times our voice lines up with that and then we run the program even when the person is nowhere near us, we're running that. Cyrina Talbott: And I help people with those subconscious programming, but it's imparting, a kind voice. So it's especially necessary for that person. And right, there's so much shame around this and how could I ever do this? Or how could I have not seen or why did it take so long? Whatever we're doing to beat ourselves up, if that's running, this is an invitation to start running a better program. Cyrina Talbott: Start saying, a big part of rapid transformational therapy is saying, "I am enough." Like just the way you are. I am enough, even though I'm going through this divorce, I'm enough. I'm valuable just as I am. But then understanding that's how your intuition is going to talk to you too. It's going to be kind and lead you to things and encourage you to trust yourself, encourage you to ask questions, encourage you to learn. Cyrina Talbott: You are not stupid; you are not incompetent. That's the first thing to stop doing is even if that's been in your head for 10 years, do your best to be aware of that and catch yourself when you're saying that and switch it to something better. Rhonda Noordyk: Yeah, for sure. Well, I have another thought related to the journaling aspect of listening to your intuition, but I want to take a quick break and then we will come back and we'll talk about that and wrap up our conversation about trusting your intuition. And then I want you to share a client success story and your favorite quote. So we will be right back. Cyrina Talbott: Thank you. Rhonda Noordyk: All right, so I am so excited that you are participating in the Divorce Conversations for Women podcast. If you haven't had a chance to check out https://www.womensfinancialwellnesscenter.com/courses. You want to make sure that you check out our Courageous Contemplation course. This is designed specifically for women that are in that, should I stay or should I go? And it's going to provide you with information about the divorce process, clarity around things that you should be thinking about and how to design the best possible scenario for your divorce process. Rhonda Noordyk: All right. So let's get back at it here. So I was thinking about the journaling part. And anytime I have an opportunity to share this nugget I love to because, and I can't take full credit for it, but I love to share it. And that is one of my dear friends who was with me when I first started my business had gone through divorce. And it was an ugly, nasty divorce and she at the time was working in the Dove Care industry, right? Rhonda Noordyk: So here she is dealing with her own stuff, really having to come in and be present in dealing with people that have just lost a loved one. And she is one of the most positive people I have ever met. And I said, "How do you do that? Tell me a little bit about your strategy." And she goes, "Rhonda, you know what, it's actually kind of simple." Rhonda Noordyk: But she said, "I have two different journals. I have a black one and I have a very colorful one." And she said, "The black one, anytime I was having some negative thoughts or beating myself up and I knew I was going to be going in to meet with a family, I would take that journal out and just get it all out. And then I would move over to the colored one and I would start writing the positive stuff in there." Rhonda Noordyk: And she said, "And pretty soon I was writing less in the black one and more in the positive one." And eventually, then she either destroyed the black one, whatever. But just that tangible like okay, separating the negative thoughts and the positive ones allowed her to be able to be the best that she could be in a situation where she had to be. Rhonda Noordyk: When somebody has lost a loved one, for you to come in and say, "Yeah, I'm going through divorce and it's really yucky and messy," That's not fair to them, right? And it's not fair to you. So deal with that stuff. Find a strategy that works for you. But that one, as far as the journaling, if you're somebody who likes to write stuff down, that could be a really great strategy for you. Cyrina Talbott: I love it. Yeah. And another thing that people do is they'll write down like what's the lie and what's the truth. If you're just hearing in your head all the time, "I'm stupid, I'm stupid, I'm stupid," write that down and then it's in a different journal that's colorful. I totally love that. Rhonda Noordyk: Right? Cyrina Talbott: But write down some things you've done that are intelligent. There's going to be a list. And that's the truth. You're valuable. You are intelligent, you are good. And the other thing is beating yourself up even though it is like what is the most comment? What is happening in this time? You can't help it, right? When you're going through this, but it's not helpful. Cyrina Talbott: So, the more you can find different tricks, tools, whatever works for you, like happy music or whatever it is, the more you can stop that and realize, "Okay, that's not real. That's not who I really am." It's of course in this situation, of course, that's what you're going to feel like doing. But the more you can detach in little ways, in any way that you can, absolutely. The better. Rhonda Noordyk: Yeah, absolutely. Well, and I just posted on Facebook right before the weekend and said, "Hey, for those of you that have gone through divorce or are going through divorce, music can be super powerful. So what's your go-to song? Right? Whether it was like some of them were like... One lady was like, "I listen to musicals." The other folks were like, "I'm listening to Lizzo and Kesha and you know... Or I'm listening to harder music or I'm listening to jazz. Rhonda Noordyk: Like it was everybody kind of there... I don't think there were any duplicates. And I had probably like 60 some comments on that one post. Right? All across the board. And so, they found that song that helped their go-to song and then probably after the divorce was over they were like, "I don't really want to listen to that song ever again." But finding those outlets that can help you gain some strength, some support, and some clarity as you're going through this process. Cyrina Talbott: Yeah, absolutely. Rhonda Noordyk: So, one last thing that I wanted to wrap up here. So we've talked about tips on how to be able to hear your intuition. The fact that you know, practice, right? There's no shame, there's no blame, just start walking and listening to your gut. And then the last one is remembering that it's leading you, lovingly leading you through life and to be a little more aware when we hear that still small voice to honor it. Rhonda Noordyk: And so, I love that. So as we wrap up our time together, I always like to end with two key things. One is a client success story. And then the last thing is your favorite quote. And I've had a chance to read a little bit through your client success story and I feel like it's really going to resonate with the women that are listening. Cyrina Talbott: Yeah. And as I work with people that's just, it's a huge thing to shift that beating yourself up. But yeah, I had a client in an abusive relationship so she came to me because she wanted, she actually was like, "I want help in my marriage," and it was emotionally abusive. And so, a little bit about my backstory is my dad was physically and emotionally abusive, and in other ways to me, I have two little brothers and a little sister. Cyrina Talbott: And my mom was so brave, and she left him when I was six. And so, and I know she had so much guilt about my brothers and growing up without a dad and all that stuff. But I know as an adult now that was the best thing she ever did for us. So, if that encourages you at all. But, so what she would say is she would say in a heartbeat, the emotional abuse was worse than the physical abuse. Cyrina Talbott: So, this client was in an emotionally abusive relationship. Her husband was cheating on her and she came to me to fix herself so she could win him back. In my head, I was like, "Heck no." But so she was mad at this woman who "stole her husband" and was wanting that relation to stop so they could just go back to normal. And when I worked with her, she was able to start to value herself and to understand like this wasn't about some other woman "taking her husband" like what the heck was her husband doing with that other woman? He was dishonoring her, he was hurting the family, he was causing the problems. Cyrina Talbott: And so, it was that shift once she could own her value more to say, "Oh, okay. This is not a competition between me and that other person. This is like, okay, what's my husband doing that's hurting our family? And to understand she didn't deserve to be treated that way. Like that conversation, she didn't deserve to have that on the table. She deserved to have a guy who loved her and that wasn't even an option or a possibility. Cyrina Talbott: And so, she started working and understand we don't have to earn other people's love. It's really about loving ourself. And I think that's really important when you're going through divorce because you're losing whatever that looked like or felt like. Even if it's unhealthy, there's that feeling that you're losing something. So it's really important to love yourself and build yourself up and understand that's the only person that really matters anyway. Even people that are in healthy relationships, it's your love for yourself that's important. Cyrina Talbott: And I also asked her what she would do, she had two daughters who were little and what she would tell their daughter if they came to her and they said, you know, in 20 years, "Hey mom, my husband's cheating on me. Can you help me be better to win him back?" like what would she say? Cyrina Talbott: And she would never encourage them to be with a man like that. And I think it's good when we flip the script and you look at your kids and you say, "Would I encourage them to be with a man like this or to beat themselves up if they were going through this?" and that helped her switch how she was thinking about it too. We just need to be nicer to ourselves guys. Yeah, so mean to ourselves in her head. Cyrina Talbott: But that's kind of the set. That's kind of the, if you don't consciously work to overcome it, that's our set point. And then I told her too, like the way we are allowing ourselves to be in a relationship or be treated or the way we treat ourselves, we're showing our kids. So the more we can value ourselves, honor ourselves, love ourselves, even though that's a hard ask, the more we can do that in little ways and get better at it. Our kids are watching and learning. Cyrina Talbott: And I know, like I said, for me, watching my mom be brave enough to take us out of that situation with my dad, even though that put her in a... you know, she wasn't financially stable, but we were emotionally healthy and safe. And we watched her and then we were able to also understand, "Okay, even if you're in a relationship like that, you never have to stay. You never have to be treated like that." And that's the truth. So anyway, it ended up that she left and it was messy, of course, and hard. Cyrina Talbott: And I just wanted to say, she was brave, but she was also encouraging herself. She was running that program of I am valuable, I am enough, I am worthy. And she had more confidence to move forward. And we also found, when I work with people, that a lot of times there's patterns from your past. It didn't start with this guy. It started when she was younger and with her mother being very controlling and demanding. And so as you're going through this and you're maybe finding old patterns, that's an invitation to grow and shift and change too. And like you said, get that team on board to help you. Don't beat yourself up about that, because as they're coming up, they're going to heal and you're going to change them, and you're going to go into the next relationship if that happens after all the divorce settles and everything, you're not going to repeat this. You're going to be healthy or you're going to have a good relationship that you deserve. But it starts with you loving yourself. Rhonda Noordyk: Yeah. Cyrina Talbott: Yeah. Rhonda Noordyk: Yeah, absolutely. I love that. And I just want to encourage that if you're listening today that you say, "Hey, you know what? I am in an emotionally abusive relationship, but he's never hit me." Right? There's no, but, okay? Cyrina Talbott: There's no but. Rhonda Noordyk: Let's just be clear. Cyrina Talbott: Absolutely, it's powerful. I mean, sticks and stones is BS. Words do hurt. Rhonda Noordyk: Oh, for sure. I mean, right? But I think that there's always this like, yeah, but isn't as bad. And I've been in several meetings where the attorneys, we've been doing attorney interviews and they ask a few questions and they say, "Based on what you told me, this is actually the definition of domestic violence." And they're like, "Really?" Cyrina Talbott: Like, they're shocked. Rhonda Noordyk: Shocked. Cyrina Talbott: And this is my invitation to that person too. If this were your daughter, and she was like, "My boyfriend or my husband, he tells me I'm a piece of garbage all the time. He calls me fat and ugly and stupid, but he's not hitting me." Would you be like, "Okay sweetie, stay." Rhonda Noordyk: Just stay. No. Cyrina Talbott: No, so yeah. Rhonda Noordyk: Get the heck out, right? Cyrina Talbott: Yeah. So honor yourself that way. Rhonda Noordyk: So this is a powerful message. I have goosebumps about this because I think we could have a lot of conversation around this part of it and the confidence that comes around it. And when you don't have the confidence, you borrow the other people's that can help you say, "Hey listen, this is not okay, this is not healthy, this is not normal. And it is okay for you to leave." Cyrina Talbott: Yeah. And there's no shame at getting however you got yourself, however, we find ourselves in this relationship, there's no shame in it. There are so common. If you sat a group of women, you had 20 women or a hundred women, there's a huge majority that would raise their hand and they've been in these relationships, whether they were married or dating or whatever. Like there's no shame here. And yeah, there are people who want to help, who've been through it. There's no judgment. Yeah, absolutely. Rhonda Noordyk: Yeah, totally. Cyrina Talbott: And you don't deserve it. Yeah. Rhonda Noordyk: Yeah, totally. Such a powerful message. So let's end with your favorite quote, right? We'll just put a bow on this thing. Cyrina Talbott: Yeah. And it's just short and sweet. Einstein said, "We can't solve our problem with the same thinking we use to create them." And for me, this is very powerful because I work with people's subconscious versus their conscious. And the key is to switch those negative, beating yourself up, that shame, that thinking is not going to help you get out of this. Being kind to yourself is. Cyrina Talbott: And a lot of times it feels counterintuitive. It feels like maybe we deserve to be thinking of all the things we've done wrong or making lists of our faults or whatever in this situation. But really being kind to yourself, letting yourself off the hook, being gentle, treating yourself how you would a good friend who is going through this, switching how you're thinking, detaching, like you said, with that journaling is so powerful. Cyrina Talbott: Those are just thoughts; those are just negative thoughts. That's not your identity. It's not who you are. There's this other colorful journal or the truth that you're good. The things you've done right. All that stuff. Yeah. So switching how you're thinking is really powerful. Rhonda Noordyk: Wow. Heavy. Right? But so good. Cyrina Talbott: Yes. Rhonda Noordyk: So many good things about this conversation. And so, I just want to thank you for taking time to just have a really candid, casual conversation because I know that the women that are listening, I know that those of you who are listening really found a nugget in here. Rhonda Noordyk: And so, I want to make sure that you leave this conversation knowing that you can reach out. The contact information for Cyrina will be in our notes. You can also reach out to the Women's Financial Wellness Center. Go to our website, womensfinancialwellnesscenter.com. You can chat with us there, you can leave a request to set up a time to chat. But let's just commit, okay, that we're not going to walk through this by ourselves. How about that? Just commit today, I'm not going to walk through this by myself, by yourself. We're not going to let anybody that we know walk through this by themselves. Rhonda Noordyk: And we've got a great team of people that are here to support you as you're going through this process, contemplating this process in the midst of it and need some guidance or direction, right? But you have to reach out. Okay? So, thank you so much for listening to today's episode. If there was something that really stood out to you, a huge takeaway, an aha moment, man, we'd love to hear from you. Rhonda Noordyk: So, thank you again for your time and I am looking forward to continuing this conversation. Cyrina Talbott: Thank you so much. And I also have a free gift. Rhonda Noordyk: Yes. Cyrina Talbott: It's a confidence thing that you can find on my website that'll be in the show notes. It's cyrinatalbott.com and so that you can listen to that to actually start this positive, running these thoughts running in your mind that are going to be- Rhonda Noordyk: Awesome. Cyrina Talbott: ... helping you instead of beating you up more yeah. Rhonda Noordyk: Awesome. Thank you so much for that generous offer. I appreciate that.   ________________________________________ Contact Information and Other Resources Our guest today was Cyrina Talbott Cyrina Talbott is a Rapid Transformational Therapist, getting to the root of issues that hold people back and helping them get their life back. Her journey from completely burning out and learning she had to heal from her own childhood trauma, lead her to be able to help others today. She's a speaker, a mom of 4 girls, and loves reading and being in the outdoors. Cyrina Talbott Rapid Transformational Therapist | Life Back Therapy cyrinat@gmail.com | (715) 570-3450 Facebook | LinkedIn | Instagram | YouTube Special Offer: Free Transformational Confidence Recording  ____________________ Our host of Divorce Conversations for Women Podcast is Rhonda Noordyk, CFEI Rhonda Noordyk's relentless pursuit of financial justice for women going through divorce drove her to leave the financial industry in 2014 to open The Women's Financial Wellness Center. She was in search of a better way. She used her knowledge, passion, and experience to build a leading-edge business model. The intention was to create a business that provided a safe place for women - especially those in a vulnerable position - to find their paths, find their voices and find the financial confidence they need to lift themselves out of seemingly hopeless situations. Since starting the Women’s Financial Wellness Center, after a 10+ year career in the financial industry, she has helped alleviate financial vulnerability for thousands of women. ​In addition to being the CEO of The Women’s Financial Wellness Center, Rhonda is also a professional speaker. While her platform is women’s money wellness, it is not just about money. Her topics include: assertive communication, boundaries, leadership and overcoming financial myths. Her speaking experience includes: GE Healthcare, UWM Women’s Leadership Conference and Marquette Law School. In addition, she has appeared on Fox6 News, Real Milwaukee, and Morning Blend. Her dynamic and inspirational style leaves women with a sense of empowerment.   Rhonda Noordyk, CFEI  CEO | The Women's Financial Wellness Center rhonda@wfwcllc.com | (262) 522-1502 Facebook | Twitter | Instagram | LinkedIn | YouTube Schedule a FREE 30-Minute Phone Call ____________________ Sponsored by: Courageous Contemplation (online course) ____________________ Visit the Women’s Financial Wellness Center for a full directory listing of experts. Be sure to reach out if you would like to connect personally with the Women’s Financial Wellness Center. You can visit our website or grab a complimentary 30-minute consult. Leaving a positive podcast review is hugely important: they help the podcast get discovered by new people. Please spend 5 minutes of your time to leave a review on your preferred listening platform, we’d love to hear from you!  

HAT 2: Authenticity Insight and inspiration generally materialize when you’re not looking. If you’re lucky, they show up when you’re about to concede defeat to the universe and saunter into the valley of indifference. On the final day of 2019 a simple word crystalized my thoughts and gave the onrushing new year a purpose.If you have a handful of minutes and want to hear how cultural exile and my search for a lawnmower led me to this place… well, Here’s A Thing.I’ve drifted in idea purgatory for the better part of a year surviving day-to-day, sometimes hour-to-hour, by consuming random and sporadic bits of hope and light as they creased my consciousness like gustatory, spiritual manna sent to keep the dread wolf of banality away from the hatch. I have struggled with a sense of PNG; persona non grata, unaccepted and unwelcome anywhere. That can’t be. Can it? I know real people are out there. I’ve heard you in the wilderness, but I can’t find you. Maybe the little red light on this microphone can be a beacon.In the spring of 2019 (which in my nape of the weeds begins around mid-February) I set out upon a mission to acquire a new lawnmower.  I had my previous lawnmower for 10 years and never did more than put gas in it. 10 brutal seasons of abuse, and never once did it fail to fire up. If that company wants to sponsor the podcast I’d be happy to promote that product. Year 11 we bought a new house with a new yard, so why not splurge on a new mower!?!? And when I say “splurge” I mean purchase the cheapest new thing I could reasonably justify. I’m simply not the guy who puts resources into crap like that, which brings me back to lawnmower 2 remembering what a failure-free workhorse lawnmower 1 was. Lawnmower 2… 2 seasons, 2 trips to the repair shop which, naturally, cost more than the lawnmower itself. Now I’m getting irritated because, as I indicated previously, I don’t fancy spending money to do something I don’t want to do in the first place. I could have given the money I spent on the lawnmower and its subsequent repairs to a neighborhood kid and had my grass cut for two years.So, when lawnmower 2 failed to start last spring I said to myself, “SELF… you need a better option. You need something low-tech and low maintenance. Something that, if it failed, you could throw into the pond behind the house to create a reef for the catfish and start over.” What about a reel mower? I don’t mean real as in existential. I mean reel (R-E-E-L) like you see Beaver Cleaver using in 1957. No engine, no oil, no gas, no worries. And, accordingly, I began my search at the epicenter of everything; that A-word.com company from the internet of things. I can sit here, upon the very chair from whence I speak, and scrutinize limitless products related to my needs. Furthermore, I can read the wisdom and advice of those who have made similar procurements before me.What a treasure trove of… complete… bullshit. You see, I’m transitioning from landscape equipment to my original point. I seek the voice of the people for perceptive prescription, but instead I get a thousand vegan, celiac, hypochondriacs who juice their grass clippings giving one-star reviews because the delivery guy wore a red shirt that triggered their cats into emotional desolation. You’d think that would be enough palaver to mock, but NO. Accompanying this cartel of fatuous lunacy is that lovely group of people who water their astoundingly lush lawn in a drought whilst lifting their middle finger at nature herself. You see, these people who put their lawn debris in landfills are giving one-star reviews because after pushing a thing without an engine around the yard they discovered they had hamstrings and that each individual blade of grass didn’t laser-measure the same length. Godalmighty!So, instead of reading, “I-bought-this-thing-for-sixty-bucks-and-it-worked-just-fine.” we are treated to a cascade of verbal diarrhea from virtue-signaling turd weasels who couldn’t find their own ass with both hands and GPS. These people wouldn’t recognize a genuine thought if they were parachuted into a comic book convention. And that’s when I realized exactly what has been bothering me for so long.Everyone is completely full of shit. From the top down, bottom up, and inside out. (the more perspicacious of you may recognize what I did there)… ANYWAY, I had it; the reason for my melancholy and malaise. I can work my way around all kind of nonsense; ignorance, laziness, pure evil. Each of these are easily dealt with if they come from a place of candor. If the booger-eater tells you he’s dumb as a stump, but will never try to influence your life, you can deal with that head-on. Same with the Taliban guy who continually reminds you that his mission in life is remove your head from the rest of you. It’s RIGHT THERE.You know what’s worse than the Taliban? The suburban Gen-Xer in yoga pants with the green and white latte cup permanently attached to its hand walking past the Guatemalan landscape crew to stand next to her Hate Doesn’t Live Here yard sign and swap stories with her Millennial protege with the fake eyelashes and push-up sports bra about how much she hates insert-designated-soft-target-WASP-group-here. Of equal mendacity are the self-righteous God-Squaders who show up on Sundays in the name of Jesus and scroll through social media during the choir’s anthem. There are a million-and-one examples of this brand of culturally systemic moral chicanery, and most are not this easily lampooned or identifiable.So, where are we? How do we address this communal bilge? How do I frame my foundation into something coherent? And that’s where I drifted until a messenger sat in my kitchen on New Year’s Eve in the form of a friend seeking the same thing. Authenticity. There it is. There’s the word for which I’ve been searching to use as the nail with which to pound my theses onto the door of treachery. I don’t generally lack for words, but this one escaped me and I cannot tell you why. Maybe I needed that particular friend at that particular time to bring me the message I was unable to articulate for so long. I strongly believe that we are here for reasons beyond catering to the id. It may be nothing more than a word or a pat on the back so well timed it changed a life. I believe in that because I believe in the interconnectedness of humanity and I want you to figure out what your part is or die trying.If you feel like you can’t be anything else, be authentic. Our way of life has been steeped in dishonesty for so long it scares me how close we are to the edge of the cliff. Turn around, take a step back, and be authentic. That word means “real” and “genuine” and those concepts can be terrifying. But, I guarantee you that nothing in this world will be more liberating than authenticity. It could be a little ghastly at first. Kinda like removing all stop signs, traffic lights, and road control devices. You do that and there’s going to be a huge bloodbath. But, eventually the authentic drive for survival will overcome the state-imposed conditioning of control and traffic will flow with grace. Or it could be Bangalore at noon.That’s enough to ponder for now. This episode of the podcast is dedicated to Jennifer Friedman. The best people in your life show up when they’re meant to. Here’s A Thing can be found on the Podbean app, iTunes & Apple Podcasts, heresathing@podbean.com, and everywhere else in the podcast universe. Episodes will also be posted on Twitter and Facebook. Please subscribe, rate, and review. Your active support is critical. Become a patron and donate to the cause by following the show link.In the immortal words of the late, great James Brown, “Get up… a-get on up-ah.” Whatever you do, get after it 100% or don’t bother the rest of us. And, if you can’t be anything else today, be authentic. It’ll pay off.

World-leading Brain Injury Physician Dr. Kabran Chapek, author of the new book "Concussion Rescue" shares his insights, experience and comprehensive guide to reclaiming your brain function after a brain injury.   But this is also an episode on brain health in general and everyone alive on this planet needs to think about the future of their brain health, from traumatic brain injury to Alzheimer's to dementia, you will have the privilege of learning from on the best physicians out there.   Dr. Chapek has been a staff physician at Amen Clinics since 2013. As a graduate of Bastyr University in the Seattle area, he is an expert in the use of functional and integrative treatments and collaborates extensively with many of the Amen Clinics physicians. He has a special interest in the assessment and treatment of Alzheimer's and dementia, traumatic brain injuries, PTSD, and anxiety disorders. Dr. Chapek is the founding president of the Psychiatric Association of Naturopathic Physicians, an affiliate group of the American Association of Naturopathic Physicians. You can find Dr. Chapeks book "Concussion Rescue" on amazon  https://www.amazon.com/Concussion-Rescue-Comprehensive-Program-Traumatic/dp/0806540230   You can do the brain health assessment at www.brainhealthassessment.com  and follow Dr Kabran Chapek on  instagram at @drkabran_chapek You can reach out to Dr Amen at  www.amenclinics.com      We would like to thank our sponsors for this show:   www.vielight.com   Makers of Photobiomodulation devices that stimulate the brains mitocondria, the power houses of your brains energy, through infrared light to optimise your brain function.  To get 10% off your order use the code: TAMATI at www.vielight.com     For more information on Lisa Tamati's programs, books and documentaries please visit www.lisatamati.com    For Lisa's online run training coaching go to https://www.lisatamati.com/page/runningpage/ Join hundreds of athletes from all over the world and all levels smashing their running goals while staying healthy in mind and body.   Lisa's Epigenetics Testing Program https://www.lisatamati.com/page/epigenetics/ Get The User Manual For Your Specific Genes Which foods should you eat, and which ones should you avoid? When, and how often should you be eating? What type of exercise does your body respond best to, and when is it best to exercise? Discover the social interactions that will energize you and uncover your natural gifts and talents. These are just some of the questions you'll uncover the answers to in the Lisa Tamati Epigenetics Testing Program along with many others. There's a good reason why epigenetics is being hailed as the "future of personalized health", as it unlocks the user manual you'll wish you'd been born with!  No more guesswork. The program, developed by an international team of independent doctors, researchers, and technology programmers for over 15 years, uses a powerful epigenetics analysis platform informed by 100% evidenced-based medical research. The platform uses over 500 algorithms and 10,000 data points per user, to analyze body measurement and lifestyle stress data, that can all be captured from the comfort of your own home   For Lisa's Mental Toughness online course visit:  https://www.lisatamati.com/page/mindsetuniversity/ Develop mental strength, emotional resilience, leadership skills and a never quit mentality - Helping you to reach your full potential and break free of those limiting beliefs.    For Lisa's free weekly Podcast "Pushing the Limits" subscribe on iTunes or your favorite podcast app or visit the website  https://www.lisatamati.com/page/podcast/     Transcript of the Podcast:    Speaker 1: (00:00) Welcome to pushing the limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential with your host, Lisa Tamati, brought to you by Lisatamati.com Speaker 2: (00:12) [Inaudible] Speaker 3: (00:13) If your brain is not functioning at its best then checkout what the team at vielight.com do now being like producers, photo biomodulation devices, your brain function, the pain's largely on the health of the energy sources of the brain cells. In other words, the mitochondria and research has shown that stimulating your brain with near infrared light revitalizes mitochondria. And I use these devices daily for both my own optimal brain function and also for other age-related decline issues and also for my mom's brain rehabilitation after her aneurism and stroke. So check out what the team do at vielight.com. That's V I E L I G H T . Com and use the code TAMATI at checkout to get 10% of any of their devices. Speaker 2: (01:05) [Inaudible] Speaker 3: (01:05) Oh my gosh, you guys are in for the biggest, most amazing interview ever. I have Dr. Kabran Chapek to guest in a moment now. He is a staff physician at the amen clinics in America, in Seattle. And this interview is about his book, a concussion rescue, which just came out in January. Absolutely fascinating man with amazing information. If you have any problem with your brain, if you've ever had a traumatic brain injury, a concussion, if any one of your loved ones have, if you're worried about dementia, if you're worried about Alzheimer's or the future of your brain health and who shouldn't be, everybody should be interested in that. Then you must, must listen to this amazing interview. I got so much out of this and it ratified a lot of the things that I'd been doing with my mum and her journey and gave me some new ideas too. So really excited for this interview. I hope you enjoy it now over to dr Chapek. Speaker 3: (02:09) Well, hello everyone. Lisa Tamati here at pushing the limits. It's fantastic to have you all, Back again, I really appreciate your loyalty. And this week I have a very special guest all the way from Seattle and America adopted Cameron chopping up the chocolate. Welcome to the show. It's an honor to be here with you. Lisa. It's fantastic. When one of the one of your assistants reached out to me to see if you had come on my show. And so I was just so excited when I read the outline of your new book concussion rescue, which we're going to dive into today because it was like, Oh, finally, finally someone's put this together, put this all together in a book that the light person can understand. So dr Chapek, can you tell us a little bit about who you are and where you and this amazing new book concussion risks. Speaker 4: (03:02) Okay, so I'm a naturopathic physician and which if, if your listeners are not sure what that is, it's looking at treating the whole person, looking at treating the cause versus symptoms. It's, that's the philosophy of naturopathic medicine and the training. In some ways it's similar, some ways different do conventional MDs are medical doctors where we have the basic sciences, but then we have the ologies oncology, gastroenterology, nutrition, exercise, all of that. So that's kind of my background in training. I work at amen clinics, which is based on dr Hayman's work. And he's a psychiatrist. Been doing this for 30 years and 30 years ago he said, instead of just talking to people, I need to look at their brains. This is what, who they are. And so he started imaging people's brains with the type of scan called SPECT, S, P, E, C, T, single photon emission computed tomography. Speaker 4: (03:58) It's kind of like a CT scan, but it's looking at functional aspects. So how is the brain working? And so we have this huge database of scans, 150,000 scans. When patients come in, we can compare their scans to the database, we can do research. And so part of our evaluation is looking at the brain versus just talking. And I love doing labs. I love doing a really comprehensive workup and then individualizing people's treatment plans. That's what gets me excited every day coming to work. And I work in Seattle, as you mentioned live here with my wife and three kids. And I love running and being outdoors and, and and then doing this work. And I, and I wrote the book concussion rescue because Lisa, there's a silent epidemic. And you know, I say that because there are 3 million people, at least in the U S would go to the ER every single year who have had a brain injury concussion, which is a form of mild traumatic brain injury. And they, there's not a lot of solutions and options for them. And so in, in my 12 years working in mental health, I'd say that brain injury is a major cause of mental illness. Yeah, no one's talking about it. It's minimized. And this sort of, we think that there's nothing you can do. Speaker 3: (05:29) Absolutely. So Assad an epidemic. So what I find interesting is that if you talk to a lot of people, and you asked me now, have you had a brain injury? They come, you know I get to talk to a lot of people because of my background with the story with mum. And a lot of people will go, no, no, no, I haven't, I haven't had a brain injury. And then you go, are you sure you haven't hit a brain? Most of us have had something along the way and it could be a long back, even in their childhood when we, you know, got knocked out on the jungle gyms or we, you know, took the hits he had in some, some way shape or form and most people have had some sort of brain injury that has left a lasting effect and people aren't aware of the solid generalists. Speaker 4: (06:16) No, it's, it's a myth that you know, you have to lose consciousness to have had a brain injury or that you have to have gone to the ER to have a brain injury or because I had my helmet on, I couldn't have had a brain injury. Helmet just protects the skull, you know even whiplash not hitting your head can cause a brain injury. And so a brain injury or concussion is defined as like a, a hit to the head or an acceleration. Deceleration meaning like a really fast jolt to the head, like with flash is enough to shake the brain inside the skull and cause injury. If you have any change in mental status, like feeling seen stars, that's enough to damage the brain. The brain is soft like butter and the skull is hard, like a rock with many bony ridges and it's easy for the brain to be damaged because of that. Speaker 4: (07:17) It's like we're not designed to hit our heads at all. Yeah, we do. And it's cumulative. So we try and ask people who come to the clinics at least 10 times, like you said, it's perfect. It's like, are you sure you ever fallen out of a tree? You ever dove into a shallow pool? ahm Have you ever had a car accident? Have ever played context sports? You had a patient, we can call him Jeremy who when he was 21, he came to see me and he had been suicidally depressed since he was 14. Wow. And he was a scrawny kid. He was a jazz drummer. Really neat kid. But he was smoking pot every day too. Feel better. He had a girlfriend who was very, very poor relationships. She was mean to him. He needed to and the relationship just couldn't do it, didn't feel strong. Speaker 4: (08:08) And when he came to see us, we scanned his brain and it was clear he had had an injury. Yeah. On his history, his intake, there was no evidence of brain injury. He had never said that he had had a brain injury. And so I asked him, have you ever fallen out of a tree? Have you ever dove into a shallow pool, fallen off a horse, off a bike? No, no, no. I said, have you ever play contact sports? And his mother who was with him said, Oh yeah, you did start playing football when you were age 13 ish. And he was matched against the coach's son who is six feet tall. And he was like this funny little kid. He just kept getting hit really hard and had headaches. And he and that's when his depression and suicidal started. He was also diagnosed with add and he had tried every class of medication and tried to all kinds of therapy, hypnosis, EMDR, CBT, all these really great therapies and been referred by a great therapist that I knew And so when we put them on a program to heal his brain after a couple of months, his symptoms of depression lifted. Speaker 3: (09:17) Yup. Speaker 4: (09:18) And two, two years later, now fast forward, he's, this spring he's going to be graduating from the Berkeley school of music for jazz, drumming, stop smoking pot. So he's doing it. So some people have concussions and brain injuries. It's clear they're not healing. Then there's people who have some other issue in the, if you think back it may be actually due to a brain injury you didn't realize. Speaker 3: (09:40) Yeah, it is. You know I just had a question that popped up in my head when you're telling that story is even things like having low blood pressure or adrenal fatigue, you know, where you stand up too quickly and you in the, you get stars in your eyes for a few seconds or you know, is, is even vet doing any damage to our heads, to our brains. Speaker 4: (10:04) It can do a little bit. You mean like that, that low blood pressure thing? Cause you can, Speaker 3: (10:08) No, you've seen it where you have a bit of a dream of a taste. It doesn't come up when you stand up. Yeah. Sorry. Speaker 4: (10:17) Z that transient decrease in blood flow to the brain can be damaging. I mean you'll even pass out eventually we'll do because it's so, it's such a shock to the brain. But it's transient. So hopefully, you know, you put your head down, you S you get blood flow again, it's short enough that it's not going to do anything permanent. But repeat low blood pressure is a problem. You know, the brain needs blood flow. Speaker 3: (10:47) Well, I'm asking selfishly. Yeah, yeah. Very low blood pressure and have that problem. Often when I stand up, especially in the evenings and we have been a bit stressed out and tired, I noticed that I get up and I'm like, well you know, I wondered if that, you know, that temporary lack of blood flow could be damaging as well. Speaker 4: (11:09) Yeah. I don't think it's good, but I don't think it's causing permanent damage. As long as you address it, put your head down, sit down, relax, lay down. Speaker 3: (11:18) Yeah. Now dr Kabran, I wanted to actually dive into the book a little bit and actually couple of the things now with the modernist is nine. My story with my mum. Well hopefully they do. Most of them would know and I've got a book coming out too. Next months are a meatless, you know, what's really exciting when I looked through your book, a lot of the things that you've written in this book I've done to my beloved and being in New Zealand and I didn't have access to things like spics games in, in, in a lot of the fancy stuff. But I'd do what I could. One of the biggest pieces of the puzzle for me was hyperbaric oxygen therapy. And I've had a couple of experts on the show, Dr. Scott Cher was one of those on hyperbaric and how powerful this can be for people with brain injuries. So let's start with hyperbaric. What is, Speaker 4: (12:20) If I had one magic bullet, I can only do one thing to heal someone's brain. It would be hyperbaric. Okay, Speaker 3: (12:26) Wow. Yup. Totally agree. Yeah. Speaker 4: (12:30) It's a, and your listeners probably know, but it's hyperbaric oxygen is a chamber well under pressure and it pushes oxygen to the deeper structures that haven't been able to heal. And just like a diver has the bins, they go up too fast. They go in this chamber at higher pressures. This is low pressure, low pressure over time. So like 40 hours, 80 hours, 120 hours. And I actually was able to participate in a quick study a pilot study with Zachary light stead and he's, he was a high school athlete who had second impact syndrome. So he was put in, was about 14 or so. He was playing football. Got hit, went out, went back in and said, I'm fine. Coach put me back in, got hit again. Massive brain bleed afterwards in a coma for months, unable to walk and talk. And he had to relearn that. And so his parents were huge advocates of that. And that's why we have the Zachary lifestyle law or some version of it in every state in the U S where if someone, if an athlete is suspected of having a concussion, they have to be taken out and assessed by a medical professional before they can be put back in. Again, not every state has a seat belt law yet, surprisingly. Speaker 4: (13:48) So I was able to do a high prepare costs and study with this motivated kid who is recovered a lot but not fully. And we did 40 sessions of hyperbaric before and after. And of course, it's not a 180 degree with just that, but it improved his, you could see improvements in blood flow in his frontal lobe and it's parietal lobe, even five years after this massive, massive Speaker 3: (14:13) Wow, that's important 0.5 years after because a lot of people ask me, well, do I have to have had it in the past few months? And then I say, no, no. Who know, you can, it came to even Speaker 4: (14:24) Not too late. And there's another evidence of that. We did a study with 30 retired NFL football players. So now fast forward, these guys are in their fifties and sixties, and it's been like 10 20 years since they played football, but terrible looking brains. I mean, really severe damage. And they're starting to have depression. They're starting to have memory problems. They're headed towards dementia. And what we did for them was we gave them supplements, we gave them a healthier diet treated HYP treated sleep apnea if needed. And then hyperbaric oxygen for some of them as well. And after six months we were able to rescan their brains, significant improvement. Their quality of life was better, less depression, less anxiety, less depression or less anger. That's anger and better processing speed. So it's not, it's not too late. Speaker 3: (15:20) Awesome. This is really exciting. I've got a brother who was a professional rugby player and he had a number of brain injuries and I've been trying to get him in the hyperbaric cause I have a chamber podcast because he wants me to know, you know what, what really frustrates me is this is a very simple, so you know, there, there, there's a, the medical grade hyperbaric facilities, which you have a lot of in America and then there are mild hyperbaric chamber and you know, and you feel that it's very hard to get access to the medical grade ones. We hit them in Oakland ring, cross street hospital, but they won't, they do not believe they are off benefit for brain injury, which is just absolute training. Same here. Speaker 3: (16:14) So studies. And there was one clinic here in the South on end of New Zealand, adopted Tim UA, who has had a a proper chamber, you know, a medical brake chamber and he's just shut his doors after 15 years because he's sick of all of the regulations and the problems associated with secondhand. And this is the most powerful. Like if I had not had this from mom, I do not think I would have got him back 250 sessions with him and I ended up opening a mild hyperbaric clinic here. So you get to, you know, get local people access to it. And I'm a really big advocate for it. I've, I've since sold the clinic, but it's now available for other people. It's awesome, but it's not, it's using mod hyperbaric. So which, which are Brian and Brie, you know, at 1.5 atmospheres is, is, you know according to Dr. Hart who you probably know sees his ideal, obviously for, for other injuries, a little bit high pressure would be, would be better. But it's so, it's so important to share this message that this is a very powerful X is to it. Then you're like, when you're meeting up just the brain injury. Is it that his brother? Speaker 4: (17:39) No, no, it's especially for strokes. I'm so glad you did that and I'm kind of curious when she noticed, started noticing improvement along that 250 sessions, if it was early and it continued to prove or later on Speaker 3: (17:52) We had the first 33 sessions at a commercial dive company. Con allowed me to use the facility. Also I had to sign legal waivers and so on. I, I as soon as I got around to the hospital that day, I got her out of the hospital and she was like, you know, 24, seven key issue was completely bombed. Fill down to the factory, put her on a forklift in the middle of the spectrum and stuff or in the chamber. Much thought I was nuts. Right? There's nobody you can with walls. We did three treatments at that place. And in the month following the, the chamber thing got taken off overseas at a contract and I lost the access to it. And so for a month I had no chamber while I was ordering one from the S from China. And in that month is where I saw a huge gains, is her body caught up and she said yes, you started to have more speech wanting to move her and trying to communicate. And it wasn't like up and up and walking or, or anything like that. But she was starting to have a little bit of intention to what she wanted and was trying to communicate and so on. Let's see that this awesome. And then she came back. They, I had more to work with other things and unfortunately I didn't have a spec scans. I wish, I wish I could have Headspace scans all the way through this too to prove, you know, this was what, what was happening. Yeah, so Speaker 4: (19:39) The hyperbarics, you know, mostly we have the same problem in the U S as far as access. So there are a lot of clinics with the mild hyperbaric and I think it works great and I recommend people we can, they can rent chambers for a couple of months and try and get in those 40 to 80 hours in the chamber. And I see it work all the time. I, I would, I tend to layer it in as kind of a clinical Pearl is like if you have the finances and resources and it have access to it, there's no reason not to do it anywhere along the process. But because it is time intensive and costly at least make sure you have the other elements in first. Nutrition, supplements, physical alignment, sleep, start to rehabilitate with brain exercises and, and add in hyperbaric if there's any plateauing along the way. And maybe after a couple of months after starting that nutrients. That's what I reckon. Speaker 3: (20:38) Yeah. Let's go into this, the methodology here a little bit and dig deeper into we don't always do my research. I tried to get her on, you know, the good fats, MCT oil on special oils, that sort of thing. At the beginning, she could have the eight, 10, she couldn't sugar. So most of her nutrition was green smoothies, whatever I could get down here. And so your nutrition wise, what are some of the supplements that we can, because whatever you do before you go into hyperbaric will be intensified. Run it like of you know, things like vitamin C infusions or anything like that. Is that a good, is that a, for example, a good thing to be doing? And you know, Speaker 4: (21:29) Prior to hyperbaric and MCT, prior to hyperbaric and essentially a ketogenic diet with hyperbaric is I think enhances the whole a, they're synergistic. They both have antioxidant and antiinflammatory effects and they both increase healing of the mitochondria turning on genes. So the whole reason I think that ketogenic diet is worth looking at, it's not right for everyone and you just want to check with your doctor before starting it. But it's, it's not just for weight loss. It's kind of a fad right now. And us, is it in New Zealand across the world? Pretty much. And it's a, it's a low fat or it's a low carbohydrate diet, less than 30 grams of carbs a day, which isn't much until that forces the body to burn fats for fuel. Your brain is very hungry using 20 to 30% of calories in your diet, which is like a quarter of your plate. Speaker 4: (22:27) Think about it, 2% of your body weight brain using 20 to 30% of calories in your diet, so hungry, but yet when there's injury or there's some neurological problem, typically there's a metabolic deficit. The brain is not able to use as much fuel. As mitochondria are damaged, the brain is damaged and so the ketone bodies which are produced from Makita, genic diet don't take as many steps to get into the brain to be used as fuel. Whereas some of the times the glucose transporters are damaged. I can dementia and brain injury. There's a lot of correlates between the two. There's difficulty in utilizing and accessing glucose for this hungry Oregon. You know, right after brain injury, there's this metabolic deficit, this drop in glucose metabolism after about 10 to 30 minutes, which continues to stay low for weeks. And so this hungry organ, nowK doesn't have enough glucose. That's part of the problem. It's Speaker 3: (23:24) The bites, the whole problem. I mean that is part of what causes to meet. Sure. Isn't it? When you if we don't have into like insulin resistance cause you know, by bad diet for many years leading to or contributing to Alzheimer's and dementia did this as a, as a similar effect happening with a brain. But that a bit quicker. Yeah, exactly. So we can get the glucose in. So it's really, really crucial. If you are not on a keto diet and you just add an exogenous ketones, is that enough? Is that going to benefit? Speaker 4: (24:04) That's a great question. I think it's worth trying. The research doesn't, it's unclear in my mind because they've tried giving. So there's a study because they had patients in comas and they gave them, because they know about this metabolic deficit they gave them IVA glucose thinking, Oh, let's just give them glucose. And what happened was it suppressed their little bit of ketone production. They had like 16% ketones, which were fueling the brain a little bit. And that totally squashed that. And so a little bit, so it's not the answer we need to shift towards burning fats for fuel, burning ketones for fuel. So adding exogenous ketones, there's various studies where they've I think added lactate and different sort of fuel sources and so far haven't been that successful. I think was probably the best. I mean, if I had a brain injury myself for my loved ones, my family members, I'm giving them exhaustion, ketones right away, you know, keto OOS or some sort of product. And, and just in the hopes that they're getting some more fuel for their brain with all of the nutrients that they should be receiving. But it's, if you're on a ketogenic diet, MCTs and anxieties, ketones absolutely enhance the process. If you're eating a crap diet, lots of sugar processed foods, I don't think it's going to help much Speaker 3: (25:33) Standard hospital fear and you know, things like that. We hit those door and I'm like, you know, I didn't find that out unfortunately during the initial, but what I did do is at least I brought in my own smoothies and made my own options while she was awesome. They allowed you to do that. Yeah. Yeah. Well I didn't always ask permission. Don't you have to do the H DHA and you know, and official oils and things like that. I'm awesome as well. And I I wish I'd known more earlier. Some of these things, you know, I did later on as I, as I, as I got more and more research. But I think so if you can't get the patient to, to do a ketogenic diet at least try with the exhausted, those would be the minimum. Speaker 4: (26:27) Right. And do a lower carb diet. No sugar, just, you know, it can be in a stepwise process. First cut out all extra sugar, no cookies, cakes, candy, sweets, especially right after an injury or at any point. Then second step would be protein at each meal, meat, eggs, grass fed, beef, chicken, whatever. Then adding more vegetables and then more healthy fats, avocados, coconut oil. And so even doing that, like is there studies showing that if someone, excuse me, these are actually animals who are on a high sugar diet compared to those who are on a normal rat chow diet and then given a brain injury, those on a high sugar diet, those rats had a lot more concussive symptoms and took longer to recover. Speaker 3: (27:16) And this is, I think, you know, I'm translating a little bit into dementia and Alzheimer's. So a huge epidemic. And the thing that we can see this coming 10 years down the track, you know, this is also a very important point for, and you know, I have the broken brain series by dr Hyman and a lot of the experts in that area the mature in Alzheimer's is known as the top three diabetes in understanding the influence of sugar and insulin resistance and not giving enough glucose as we mentioned before. It's something that people can do to protect the brain health. Now, you know, years out from actually developing the disease, which is really, you know, late in the pace people especially, you know, trying to keep your brain function going. If you're noticing memory changes and this sort of thing, at least cut the sugar out. Even a tie we can obviously it didn't so much, you know, and this is the insidious problem and, and a lot of with them, older people know they've eaten meat and three veggies and the white breathe in the ligament. It's not sugar. You know, Speaker 4: (28:39) I had a patient who I think she was about 75 when she came in. Her son brought her in and she had moved to the area from I think Indiana or Chicago, somewhere in the Midwest. And she had been diagnosed with Alzheimer's and was prescribed Aricept medications or get your things in order and see you later. I was kind of, it, it's very sad that current approach to dementia and understanding me, the doctors may not have a lot of options that they've got their meds, but we do have more options actually. And so she came in, we assessed her. Yep. You've got mild cognitive impairment, may be early stages of Alzheimer's. She was living in a retirement home and just near a little downtown. Couldn't remember how to get down a few blocks to the downtown to do her shopping. And she had to draw maps and she couldn't remember her list even if she was just like three things, had to write lists and cause I have a lot of difficulties. So when she came in, we put her on this program, great programs, supplements, nutrition, exercise and let's see back in a month. So Oh and cut out your sugar because she, she wasn't overweight, so she thought, ah, I'm, I can, I deserve to have my retirement home, my treats. You know, she had a frappuccino at breakfast. She's having ice cream and cookies because it's free. It's just like at the retirement home. Speaker 3: (30:08) Oh yes. Speaker 4: (30:09) Serve ice cream. I said, you got to cut off the shirt. Just cut out the sugar. Let's do that first. Try and eat more protein and less carbs, which is like you mentioned, take the bun off the burger just even if it's not like the best quality meat, just that's fine. Just cut out the carbs first. And so she came back a month later and she was now able to, even just a month, she's able to find her way downtown. Wow. And she could remember that at least three things on her list. She couldn't remember everything, but three things she could remember. And I said, I'm patting myself on the back. Oh my God, you, you did everything. My pro, my protocol is like perfect. And she's like, I didn't take any of the supplements that you recommended. Oh boy. And I didn't do the exercise. But I did cut out the sugar. Speaker 3: (31:01) It just cut it just in one in one month you saw a change. Did she subsequently do the wrist? Speaker 4: (31:10) So then she was willing to do more and so each thing she added, like we added curcumin, we added a brain supplement. It had Gingko and Huperzine each thing she added, she got a little bit more improvement over the subsequent months. And that's what I found folks, you know, they may be a little mistrustful and so they want to try just one thing at a time. And luckily that was the thing that was really slowing her progress down. Speaker 3: (31:36) Oh man. It's so exciting. You know, like to see, you know, and you get people that have been on drugs and they've tried things and they have just, and these are not dangerous things to come out sugar and take a few supplements. You know, like we're not asking these mob America, but the side effect is better health overall and that is always going to benefit your brain anytime that you are. You mentioned Kirkman, which is your tumeric, which is another thing that I still hadn't come on and I'm on. What are some of the other sub supplements that could, is there a list of supplements that you give at as a standard or do you tailor them to each particular patient? Who, one, that's everyone's tailored, but there are some that I keep coming back to because they will compose. So the app, you know, I listens to them eat them now. Speaker 4: (32:32) Yes. Well NAC is probably available. There is a supplement. Inositol cystine. Yup. Precursor to glutathione, anti-inflammatory and just a little piece of information too. They did this double blind placebo controlled trial in 2013 where they had active service members who had a concussion like in the field. So they had an IED blast or something and then were carried or taken to the medic and they gave them NAC. Was this a double blind trial? So NAC or placebo and they were given a lot of it. And I'll tell you the dose in a second, after a week, 86% of them imp like recovered from their and concussive symptoms, whereas 42% recovered, you weren't given any. Wow. And so they were given four grams immediately days one through four. And they were given two grams twice a day. And there's five through seven. They were given 1.5 grams twice a day. So that's like an acute protocol. But NAC is important even after the fact, because many of, even though the research is mostly on acute brain injury, we know the mechanisms, many of them are exactly the same and chronic brain injury and concussion and so they apply. So NAC applies. Curcumin definitely. Speaker 3: (33:59) C is inositol a sustain for anybody who doesn't know what that means? Okay. And Q command, which is your, in your tumeric, what sorts of vitamins for that one? Speaker 4: (34:11) I would do about a thousand milligrams a day of a high quality one. And it needs to be, you can use that acutely. And also chronically, it helps to open up aquaporins. So these are water channels in the brain and you can do decrease swelling, which is especially important acutely for brain injury. Like there's this pastor who was in a car accident. I always remember. And two weeks later he thought he was fine. We went to the ER, checked out, you're fine, no brain bleed. Good. Then he went home. He was, seemed to be okay, but two weeks later he couldn't write a sermon. And I think what happened is the swelling was very gradual and slow. Not enough to be life threatening, but eventually it pushed on some of the brain regions that temporal lobes, frontal lobes, and he started having cognitive problems. So it can be this delayed. Speaker 3: (35:04) It's a light smoke, which is logical. When you cut yourself, you don't see the swelling straight away, you see it as it goes into the healing process. Speaker 4: (35:14) Exactly. Vitamin vitamin D is important. So as a fat soluble vitamin, almost more like a hormone, it turns on many different genes and helps modulate inflammation in the brain. Vitamin C I used 5,000. I use vitamin D. Vitamin C is as a buffered antioxidant water-soluble, the brain actually does well with more vitamin C, even though it's just a simple thing, everyone knows about it. It really does help decrease inflammation, that oxidative stress in the brain thousand milligrams at least a day. And they get three fatty acids. And I like using ones that are higher, a little higher EPA to DHA, which most are EPA for inflammation D to help rebuild the neuron and the cell membrane. And we try to use three grams a day of EPA DHA total. And that's what we use in that football player studying MCT oil of course you mentioned and other things, Speaker 3: (36:27) Especially oil, it's, it's important that you look for a very good quality one. W what do you type on the opposite side of problem, you know, with, with the some of the lower price fish oils [inaudible] a lot of oxidation going on. That is a problem. Speaker 4: (36:45) Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And quality is really key, especially for fish oil, like vitamin D, vitamin a, some of these nutrients, there's only a few manufacturers. Like in the, in the U S there's only three places that actually make vitamin E and every other supplement company just packages it up and charges different amounts. Vitamin E and they get three is not like that. It's really individualized per company and you need to check quality and there can be heavy metals in the fish. It can be oxidized like you said, if it's not processed properly. So that's when I wouldn't go for the cheap stuff. Speaker 3: (37:23) Okay. Very, very, very good. I'm talking on healing middle toxicity. Sorry, going a little bit off of track and we'll come back. I've done here tissue mineral analysis with mum. She's got like a moot Cori. What would be your humane mandation for getting rid of, you know, chelating these high pinning middles out of, out, out of your body. Is there anything new we want to supplement level for that type of thing? Speaker 4: (37:55) Well, yes. So one I'll just, there's a lot there. First making sure your organs of elimination are working, you know, which are organs of elimination are sweating. So the skin breathing out, toxins pooping out toxins. Having good bowel movements and not being constipated, and then urinating them out, st hydrated and peeing them out. So once all of those are open, then you can start sort of facilitating removal of metals or all toxins. And the fact that she has mercury, she probably has other things too. So solvents, mold should be always assessed for. And so I do love saunas and sweating because dr Jenny is from Canada did a really interesting study where he looked at, so what is Sana do? Like, what is it actually eliminating? And they measured in the sweat of people doing sauna. It eliminates mold metals and just chemicals, solvents. Speaker 4: (39:00) So it does all three. Wow. So that's why I love Sana because it's gonna remove all of them. And it's also been shown study out of Finland. If you're doing sauna more frequently, lower chances of dementia, in fact, that was it 2000 Finnish men or 20,000? There was a lot of them in any case. And after they followed them over many years and they found that the more saunas that they did, like five to seven days a week, they had 30% less risk of Alzheimer's versus those that just did it one day a week. So it's multiple reasons to do saunas and sweating and actually in the same study through exercise, sweat, also cleansing and detoxifying. So the fact that you're a runner and running all that gets you have been is cleansing. Speaker 3: (39:49) Yeah. As you know, is a, is a, is a huge piece of this puzzle for brain injury. As well as the most detoxifying and, and I totally eh, and someone who's sweeped every single day pretty much of their life. And I, I even even compete just to my, my siblings I can see lots of things happening in the body, so that isn't happening in mind yet. And I believe a lot of it is the, the daily sweeping, the daily mudflow, the oxygenation of the tissues. Hugely important for and also for, you know, cognitive stuff as well. Like mum, I have her doing at least two hours of aerobic activity. Very low level. We're talking on a stationary bicycle and morphing. That's all she can manage. Obviously it's CBAs but you know, two hours a day and awesome. Yeah. You know, sometimes she doesn't want to crack the whip differently. The drug Sajan that oxygen, that movement then is very, very, very important. I believe in airing her, her brain Speaker 4: (41:10) exercise is so important. Increasing blood flow, it increases especially intense aerobic exercise increases BDNF, brain derived neurotrophic factor, which is like miracle growth for the neurons and the more intense the more you produce. And there's supplements that increase BDNF a little bit, medications a little bit, but exercise trumps them all Speaker 3: (41:33) Does. Yep. Speaker 4: (41:34) Absolutely. Much more. What about new for fact or is it also influenced by nerve growth factor? Yeah. Yes. Also same influenced by exercise interval training will increase nerve growth factor. And like you said, increasing blood flow in general is, is needed and this is a real big exercise versus anaerobic or strength training. And then, you know, just going to say about this cleansing or effective exercise and endurance athlete, like you probably does sweat, you know, for 45 minutes or so, but folks like your average person like myself, I may go for it. 15 minute run, I'm not going to sweat as much as I would in a sauna. So just keep that in mind. So people listening just cause you're doing a little bit of sweating, it's probably not enough. If you really have a problem with toxicity, you'd want to actually do some sauna and sweat for really good sweat for 20 to 40 minutes several times a week. Speaker 3: (42:39) Yeah. And that's something, a problem I have with mum. Like I couldn't put her in a sauna. I don't know why, but she has temperature regulation problems that are brain steam, hypothalamus, brainstem bleed damaged thermostat. Yeah. Well she seems to have no tolerance to heat. She's good as soon as the hate. Like we're in the middle of summer here and it's a struggle that your cognitive abilities do decline and she over hates. Is there anything you can do for them? Speaker 4: (43:16) I'm not sure. How does she do with cold? Speaker 3: (43:19) She's much better with cold cuts, very well with cold. But Hey, you know, like her ability to walk inside of this is, is impaired. Speaker 4: (43:31) Yeah. I would say may just may not be able to do this sweating. But it's interesting that she does well with cold and maybe even pushing that further and considering cold therapy Speaker 3: (43:42) you cry, cry. Yup. You know, ice man training love that is really interesting. So, and I think these extremes and change is, is a key factor here too. It's, yeah. And, and because if you think about it, we, we came from, you know, an F caveman days. We were exposed to the elements. We were exposed to coal, we weren't comfortable all day in a company. And I think having exposure to what was natural is often a benefit and being convenient. Stress, yup. Speaker 4: (44:23) Helps us to be, become more resilient and stronger. I totally couldn't agree more. Exercise cold and hot. I'm challenging the brain brain training. You know, all of these are really important. Speaker 3: (44:37) Absolutely. So, going back to the supplement regime, is there anything that we, because we sort of waned on agent, was there anything else that you'd say, Hey, you've got a brain injury. Speaker 4: (44:51) So alpha GPC really important for acetylcholine. And after stroke 1200 milligrams got to do that. So I don't know if she's taking off of GPC, but that's worth a try. Speaker 3: (45:04) Heavier on acetylcholine is that different? Alpha GPC phosphatidylcholine. Now as Seadrill calling, Speaker 4: (45:13) I see the coin. So the casino coin is that actual neurotransmitter that you're trying to make. So I see the little carnitine. Speaker 3: (45:21) Yes, I have in the past header on there. Is it good? Speaker 4: (45:25) Yeah, that is also good. Helps the mitochondria. Yeah. Alpha GPC will help you her make more acetylcholine and also help the neuron. Phosphatidyl searing is another really good one for memory. There's not as much research on that for brain injury, but I, I still think it's really helpful for memory and cognition because 10% of your brain is made out of this fossa title steering. It's in the cell membranes and Speaker 3: (45:57) Okay. Speaker 4: (45:58) Counter as a supplement. It's very, I'd give it to kids. I mean it's so safe this stuff, but it really is helpful. Alpha GPC potentially. So Gingko 120 milligrams to 240 of Gingko biloba extract. Really good for blood flow. Who present a Chinese club. Moss is a natural acetylcholine esterase inhibitor, so it's sort of increases your body's own CDOT. Coleen I wouldn't give that for acute brain injury, but chronic brain injury, dementia, any other, Speaker 3: (46:32) How do you spell that one? Lou Lou cuisine Speaker 4: (46:35) Prison. H. U. P. E. R. Z. I. N. E. a. It's M Chinese club Moss. It's from Chinese club Moss. And it's, it's a [inaudible] Speaker 3: (46:47) But you have to go out and actually buy concussion rescued because this is all that's sort of level of information in one single seating sitting is, is there's a lot, I mean I spent months and months researching to come up with the bits and pieces that I came up with. And you've written a book that actually gives people a first aid kit for Brian and a protocol to follow and in this is just so exciting. You know I'd love to, if you were down the road, I'd love to go on a speaking tour with you and give like that Rachel side of it and then the side of it, wouldn't it be just Speaker 4: (47:31) Let's do it. I'll come down to New Zealand. I've been wanting to need an excuse so, Speaker 3: (47:36) Well I use that word a lot. They're all come to America and because, because we, we talking millions of people being affected by brain injury every year in, in most people are not given anything except you know, the, well not even the diet recommendations like it's, it's frustrating said and there are just so many people suffering in silence and, and it's an insidious thing because with Brian injuries as with dementia, you don't see on the outside the stuff going on. So a lot of the people that come through our hyperbaric clinic would be so in tears that people don't, when I understood the pain that I was going through because people could not see an injury, that's a young man and he looks healthy and he can't stay in the light and he can't stand the noise. And he counts, he's fatigued all the time and people are just thinking, you're being a woman, you're not. Speaker 4: (48:40) And he starts to wonder, what's wrong with me? Maybe I am a wimp. Maybe I'm, I don't know what's going on. Speaker 3: (48:47) It's more sad. And then things like depression and personality changes where we think someone's just become a horrible person. Dealing with really cognitive problems. So having an, having understanding for people who have Dimitrio who have personality changes, we have like going on that it may be not be fault, you know? Speaker 4: (49:15) Yeah. I have to say that's one benefit of having the ability to do imaging or at least some kind of cognitive tool or test. The imaging is just so powerful because when you show someone their brain and it showed their family members their brain, that's when the tears come because it's like, Oh my God, it's not only diagnostic, but it's therapeutic. They understand. It's just, it is, there is, there is a, there's an injury, Speaker 3: (49:41) Yes. And injury and I can see it and I feel, Oh my gosh, it's not all my fault and I'm not being a neurotic or, or you know, being old. There's nothing wrong with you. You know, I'm with them and they know that there's something wrong but nobody's believing them. And that is very, very painful. And I wish we hit spec scans. He, we don't have access to them. And I wish that had been through the journey to be able to Speaker 4: (50:12) I'm just thinking what else is available? You know, there's cognitive testing that can be done just to document difficulty in memory and focus and things. Speaker 3: (50:22) Can you just ask a, you know, a clinician or do you, Speaker 4: (50:25) Yeah. You can do on our website, brain health assessment.com. I can't remember if there's a fee or it's not, it doesn't cost very much to do. And you can measure where you're at as far as, you know, focus memory in different aspects. In the clinic we use something called web neuro and that's a web-based cognitive tests that people do is computerize and manage the tension memory. Also emotion. And this brain health assessment is the exact same test. So it's, it's, it's high quality. And there's pencil, paper tests and there's also labs that can be done to measure if there's damage to the pituitary gland. It's a whole other issue cause 25 to 50% of people with a history of brain injury have damage to the pituitary glands, your master hormone gland. Oh, and maybe a little more accessible. Speaker 3: (51:19) Let's dive into this. So hormone just came from. So all of the labs that you could do this with, you have, and how do you doctor into doing them? Speaker 4: (51:30) That's half the battle, isn't it? I would, I would just say, you know, bring in the research, there's plenty of studies showing that, you know this is very, some studies say 25, some say 50%, some say even more. If there's, you know, I've had a brain injury, this is what happens. And you can document that by measuring pituitary function and you know, it's, you can actually measure in a bloodwork pituitary hormones like for testosterone, the precursor or the stimulus is LH. And FSH. This is on the book too. It's in all the labs and stuff. For thyroid instead of having what normally is a high TSH and a low T three T four is actually low TSH and low T three T four, which means that the pituitary is not sending the signal to the thyroid gland. Speaker 3: (52:23) Oh wow. Is that, so is that causing the in the like more reverse T three and I'm not talking on the receptor or is it, Oh, you're very sophisticated knowledge. That's great. I'm impressed. I'm work out forward because this is part of month's problem and reverse T three. Yes. I've, I've been arguing with a doctor and, and again, I want a full panel and I cannot get a full panel three free T for me that's too bad. Do antibodies and TSH and T four and that's all I can get out of the law at the moment. So, Speaker 4: (53:01) Right. So if, if you do, if you just do a TSH, which is the standard for screening, that's not going to tell us really what's going on because you know, if it's low TSH they may say, Oh, you're fine. It's not too, you know, it's the kind of kiss is reverse where if it's low, you're hyperthyroid. If it's high, you're hyperthyroid typically. But if you're low plus your T three and T four low, it's pituitary issue actually. So that's important to know. Any case looking at act H and cortisol is for adrenal. And then of course testosterone for men, estrogen, pedestrian for women and LH, FSH. Those would probably be the main ones. And just say, Hey doctor, please, please test these labs. You may have to cut a pocket or whatever. I don't know if you have labs where you can just, Speaker 3: (53:56) We, yeah, we do have bicycle labs, but if you want anything, you know, it's things like cortisol I do regularly and that you have to pay for. So someone like, like mom was obviously got adrenal issues. So like things like estrogen, LH, GC, if it, if it's age in an older female, that would be, it's going to be high. You know, it's, it's different than, than I would I read. That's a very deep clinical question. Speaker 4: (54:29) I guess if it's low, then, then there's pituitary issues. It should be high in menopause after you're going to have high altitude. What happens is the S that the ovaries stop producing estrogen, but the brain thinks it's still, they still should be. So the brain sends a lot of LH and FSH down to the ovaries. And so it, that's how you know you're in menopause if you have high LH and FSH. So then if you measured those after menopause and it's really low, that would be very unusual. It would be, Oh, the pituitary is not working. Speaker 3: (55:07) And, and if it's the pituitary, it's not working. Is there anything you can do about that? Speaker 4: (55:13) Oh, great question. All of these things should help peel the pituitary. I'm actually balancing the hormones. So adding an estrogen, progesterone, testosterone looking at growth hormone. That's the other one I forgot to mention. If growth hormone is low, that's very common in pituitary damage. And can really, if you can increase growth hormone that helps with healing of the whole brain in the body. Best done through exercise again. And so, and then taking the supplements, putting the brain in a healing environment will help the pituitary to also heal. So that's the supplements diet, exercise, hyperbaric. So the hyperbaric is very helpful for pituitary damage as well. Speaker 3: (56:01) It's really good growth hormone. I'm actually taking a supplement. Is it, is there any danger with that in regards to cancer? Speaker 4: (56:09) I always talk with people about that. Like if you had a tumor and you have lots of growth hormone, you might potentially growth of the tumor. So that's like balancing the two. It's like, do we want lots of growth factors or do we want to keep, like there's this whole thing about low calorie diet and low IGF one, which is a marker for growth hormone. There's this field or you know, so it's really a balance of the two. It's not one or the other. I don't actually recommend people do growth hormone because you can become dependent on it and it's expensive. It's like over a thousand dollars a month, something like that. But you can again, exercise, there's supplements or nothing are Janine this product called tri amino. There's various companies that make it and there's three amino acids that are helpful in making growth hormone, taking it bedtime. Speaker 3: (57:04) Yup. [inaudible] Voicing that type of thing or, Speaker 4: (57:07) Yeah. I think it's arginine ornithine and there's one other, but it's three amino acids in particular without other amino acids. You just want those three and on an empty stomach. And if you're really going for it and talk about this in the book, but prior to exercise or empty stomach at night, cause you grow, produce most of your growth hormone at night when you're in deep sleep. That's why deep sleep is so, it's one of the reasons why it's so important. Speaker 3: (57:35) Wow. This is how people are listening. So I've just done a couple of podcasts, episodes on sleep and the importance of sleep and when you won't have enough sleep and growth hormone is one of those things. And your hormone regulation in general. I was going to go, Oh, sleep apnea. You mentioned the briefly or sleep disruption. Sleep apnea wasn't one of the big key mumps I worked at when I was in hospital when she, she's still in hospital. She'd been on oxygen Wellington and when they transplant her to new Plymouth, she was taking off the supplemental oxygen and I noticed a decline in who w what was already terrible but was even worse. And I tried to get him to put this up and legal bank box option back on and they wouldn't. And Avi headed with altitudes ricing and altitude. Speaker 3: (58:35) And I'd been in a hot code hypoxic tent at night with the oxygen. And I had like giving myself a hypoxic brain concussion a few years ago. Growing up too high too fast because I was impatient. I slept in a half thousand meters every night, all night, knocked off. A lot of brain cells have hypoxic rag pressure. And during that time when I did this, I had a whole lot of infections because the bacteria in the body oxygen deficit. And so I was recognizing some of these when she was in the hospital, still my brain went tick, tick, tick apnea, sleep apnea. Cause she was sleeping of course, 20, 21 hours a day. And the doc said, no, she don't, you don't need the sleep apnea test. And I went and got an outside consultant for him and I got in big trouble. I didn't really care resolving. He'd done a taste and it came, make some via sleep apnea. And, and from my research and the thesis there are a lot of people who are suffering from sleep apnea who are not aware that are suffering sleep apnea. Do you think this is a massive contributor to brain injury? Speaker 4: (59:49) Oh, absolutely. Brain problems in general. I think luckily people are recognizing it more and screening more and needs to be done. If your sleep, if you're sleeping a lot like your mom was, or not feeling rested or waking up at night a lot. In fact, my father who has had chronic sleep problems, I've tried to give him every supplement under the sun, can't seem to get his sleep under control. He just did a sleep study. It turns out he has mild sleep apnea and that was causing him to wake up frequently throughout the night. Speaker 3: (01:00:20) Wow, that's interesting, isn't it? And things like even like adrenal exhaustion, you know, your cortisol levels going up in the middle of the night, like that type of thing. I mean we w I'm very much into, you know, breathing exercises and front of the peat, the parasympathetic nervous system, blue blocking at night or what are those things that contribute to good health? And very important again, a tangent. We in our company we do epigenetic testing. And this looks like a genetics and how they're experiencing lightened. Well and one of the key things there is to understand what time of the day [inaudible] biology is very very important. So if your hormones are icing between five and six in the morning and you're getting up at 5:00 AM to do a CrossFit workout, that can be very detrimental to your health and smell. Look, dr [inaudible], I know that you've got to go shortly. I just want to wait. Can people reach out to you and I definitely want to talk to you further because this is isolating conversation. I think I've ever head in so exciting. I can't wait for the book to arrive in the post. We can people reach you. We can they get the book. And what are the next steps for people who are suffering from brain injury? Speaker 4: (01:01:53) Well, great. I've really enjoyed talking with you too. I can feel your passion and excitement to help others and that's where my heart's about to because your brain is like, that's everything. It's who we are. It's our personality. That's why I do this work is to help people recover and optimize their brain function. Because I want you to be able to share your gifts with the world and just be yourself and it's never too late like end with that. It's never too late to at least try and help heal your brain for brain injury. You and your mother are proof of that. I'm so excited to read your book as it comes out next month. Congratulations. You can find my book concussion rescue. It's out. Just released a January 28th on Amazon. There's an audible version for people and a listen to it. We recorded a a video series. It's available beginning of February on the book at Ayman university. It's available there. And I'm at amen clinics Northwest and Seattle. You can just Google that. Amen. Clinics, Northwest and Seattle location. There's clinics all around the country and Speaker 3: (01:03:00) Well I personally as well with people who have my own website. Yeah, I don't, I tried to and I'm not that tech savvy, so. Okay. You must, you must get you your age. I'm on Instagram and Facebook too. Excellent. So people can reach you. Doctor, dr Kabran Chapek, Chapek sorry. Concussion rescue. I will put, I'll get all those links from you, Dr. Cameron 16 with the audience. If I can help with any way, shape or form with getting this book out there. We've got to make this a best seller right around the world because this is, this is absolute crucial work that you're doing and I'm really, really, really sorry that I paid you all this. Thank you so much for your time today, dr Kevin. My pleasure. Great to be with you. Speaker 3: (01:03:55) You really enjoyed that interview with dr Chapek, make sure you go and get their book concussion rescue a must read for anyone with a brain really. And I also wanted to remind you my book relentless is coming out on the 11th of March and is available now for preorder. If you want to grab it, you're also going to get at the moment for the next couple of weeks excess to my mental toughness and mindset Academy if you buy the book and the next couple of weeks. So that's a value of $275 that course. So please go and check that out at least at lisatamati.com and hit on the shop button if you want to help with your health. With epigenetics, we have an eerie genetics testing program, which I mentioned briefly in the show. If you want to find out what that is all about, please head over to our programs page. We've got three flagship programs, we've got the mindset, you've got the epigenetics, and we've got the run training Academy, so please chicken all that out, head over to Lisatamati.com And don't forget to give them a show, a rating and review and share it with your friends. Thanks guys. Speaker 1: (01:05:01) That's it this week for pushing the limits. Be sure to write, review, and share with your friends and head over and visit Lisa and her team at lisatamati.com.

The best part about an RPG is talking to the NPCs... Right? There's plenty to learn about the challenges and plenty of things Penczak has never seen. Join Ambienitus and Brixeus Hammerbottom (Brad Richards and Ben Renfro), Jecht Liketheplane (Brad Renfro), Abraham Van Halen (Matt Smith), and Prothian Graymane (Eric Nemeth) as they continue their adventures in Ralvaria, led by Dungeon Master Paul Camper. Catch up on previous episodes at www.deathsavingbros.comFollow us on Twitter and other social media @DeathSavingBros or visit our website.Shop for official Death Saving Bros merchandise on Redbubble to get t-shirts, hoodies, mugs, and more.The songs “Aldyn,” “Autumn on the Ramparts,” “Duel Compulsion,” “Last Respite,” “Last Respite (Piano),” “The Liquid Truth,” and “Ritual Deep, Dark, and Wet,” are copyright Will Savino and the Music d20 project. These tracks are used with permission. All rights reserved.The Death Saving Bros theme song is an abridged version of the track "Run" by Kai Engel from The Free Music Archive. It is used with permission under Creative Commons Attribution License 4.0.

Part 2 of the Long Patrol picks up with Pete, Jeremy, KD and Matthais, and it's totally happy. Right? There's no sadness, and we get an overly cute badgerbabe to gawk at. Intro/Outro Music is by: Cory Gray. Medieval Tension 30s. Song is licensed under an Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 International License.

Learn more about the content discussed...No Boss Talk:https://nobosstalk.comTim Farrant’s Website: https://networkmarketinghusband.comTim Farrant’s Book: https://www.amazon.com/Shes-Selling-WhatMonday Morning Routine: https://www.bethholdengraves.com/routineThe Camp Elevate Facebook Group:hereBeth’s Instagram:@bethholdengravesBeth’s website:https://www.bethholdengraves.comProfit HER Way Course:https://www.bethholdengraves.com/profitKeynotes discussed:I was really my wife's obstacle for the first few months that she was doing this business. I did not make it easy for her and I've apologized to her for that. And yet she persevere through and she crushed it and she's doing great. (05:01)Getting the husband to understand that compensation plan by someone who's been successful and can answer their questions. (10:01)When we don't include the spouse in that, we're kind of setting ourselves up for more obstacles than we need to or even for failure. (12:57)And so you are going to put in a lot of work early on to build the business and then ultimately as you stick with it and you don't quit, you know, you keep going. Then ultimately the income far exceeds the hours that you're putting in. (17:06)I tell a lot of women when I have opportunities like this, to have these conversations that if your husband or partner believes or thinks that you're going to quit, they're not going to get on board. (20:39)When Did It Air...January 06, 2020Episode Transcript...Beth:Welcome to ‘You’re Not the Boss of Me’. If you are determined to break glass ceilings and build it your way, this show is for you. I’m your host Beth Graves and I am obsessed with helping you to not just dream it, but make the plan, connect the dots and create what you crave. Are you ready? Let’s get started.Hey bosses and welcome back. It is episode number 20 is that so exciting? It is for me. I hope you're as excited as I am. And this week in honor of episode 20 we are doing a giveaway, and this is all you need to do to get boss swag in the mail from us. It's Mandy, my boss that mails it out. So, what you're going to do is leave a rating and review. If you've already left a rating and review, share this on your Facebook or in your Instagram stories and just send me a DM over on Instagram or over on Facebook messenger or sent to our email that's listed in the show notes and just say, I shared it. Let us know how and when. And we will send you our brand-new boss swag that you are going to love. So, I want to read to you from Bridget a review for this week and she says, thank you for this podcast.Beth:I love the energy Beth brings. Every time I listen to her, it seems to be spot on. Always the message I'm needing to hear. And that leaves me anxiously waiting for the next one. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Bridget, for this review and I am hoping that this episode is exactly what you need to hear today. So, without further ado, let me tell you what we're doing on episode number 20 it's a privilege for me to have Tim Farrant with us today. He is the author of, She’s Selling What? a skeptical husband's guide to supporting his network marketing wife. So, he will talk to us about how to have those conversations with your spouse, his story about helping and watching and supporting his wife's Epic rise in network marketing and his own journey from shock and skepticism to understanding and support. And you are going to love the actual ideas and spot on things that he's going to help you to do.Beth:That not only will help your spouse and your family to understand your network marketing journey, but to have a better marriage overall. So here we go with Tim. I can't wait for you to hear his story. Hey everyone. I am so excited today because, well, the last time Tim and I were together, we had like a cosmic disruption in our interview. And as you heard in the intro, Tim is the author of, She's Selling What, and I'm so excited for you to not only hear about how this book and this movement came about, but also most of my listeners, I have a few, a few guys out there. And women, and I hear so often, I'm not sure how to talk to my husband. I didn't really tell him I was doing this thing. And Tim is here to give you guys all of the behind the scenes, how to make sure that it's a partnership to get your spouse on board and also to create something together, not just as you know, you up in your office, your husband downstairs feeling annoyed, irritated and agitated because I've been there. So, Tim, welcome.Tim:Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.Beth:All right, so we know that your wife has had a meteoric rise in the industry. So, can you take us back at the end? Not the end, but it's like the beginning of the next phase. You have this amazing resource, this book you're speaking at Top Summit. I get to see you there. Yay! And you're all over the place as the network marketing husband, so take us back. You haven't always been the network marketing husband. Give us a little background of how all of this came to be and a little bit about you.Tim:No, that's great. In fact, I would have probably been the anti-network marketing husband when my wife started, which is, you know, where so much of this passion comes from now. So, I remember sitting at the table, like I remember the restaurant we were at, and the table when my wife looked across and I love my wife, I love her to death. We have a great marriage. She looked across the table and she was like, okay, I think I want to do this business. And I literally, it's one of the reasons why I named the book. She's selling what? Cause I literally looked at her and I was like, you want to do what? Like come on. At the time she had another business that she was successful in. And I was just like, seriously, you're going to do this? And to be honest, Beth, it was because I carried with me a bunch of the skepticism, like a U haul truck full of skepticism and all of that with me that a lot of other husbands have and spouses and partners have about the network marketing industry.Tim:And so I was really my wife's obstacle for the first few months that she was doing this business. I did not make it easy for her and I've apologized to her for that. And yet she persevered through and she crushed it and she's doing great. But what we have found is that there's so many spouses that the truth is they end up giving up because their husbands are significant obstacles instead of really being fuel on their fire in their business. And so, my passion is not only for people that have been in business for a while, but especially for newer people to get the spouse on board as soon as possible. And if you can, it will fuel not only your business, but align yourself in marriage in a way that could be really incredible. So anyway, that's my heart and passion.Beth:Okay. So, I'm visualizing the you haul truck and all of the skepticism. And I hear so often, and I, you know, I deal with it all the time myself now, I have such unshakable belief in the mission and what I do and the people that I'm helping, people will say, well, it's easy for you. Well, so some people will say, well, it's easy for Becky. It's easy for Beth and Tim because they've built these ginormous teams and networks. But it's every single day staying, staying like you're a pastor. So, I always say it's staying in the word, staying in the stories, staying with what we see, amazing things happening. I just had somebody send me a silly article, I think, I don't even know. It was in a popular little online magazine about why the network marketing industry is ruining women. And, and again, the skepticism. So, tell me about this is you had a U haul truck full of skepticism.So did my husband, my husband Don, he was supportive, but he was like, Oh yeah, okay. He thought it was me, this little thing, right? And all he said was, Oh, like do you have to pay a monthly fee and how much do you have to order and how long are you going to stick with this? And I was fueled because I, the name of this podcast is, You're Not the Boss of Me. And so as being the youngest of three, I was always trying to prove that I should be the first pick for kickball I could win at tetherball. So, I, I was going to win. They're going to win, but not everyone has that tenacity. I think it was kind of, I think my two older sisters for that, because you know that was my birthright is, I'm going to show you. So, tell me the skepticism is there.Let's walk. Let's, let's just get right down to it. You're listening today, your spouses and on board. You can also use these strategies if it's a parent, if it's a best friend. If you, and I know that you and Becky work with her new distributors when they signed on, so let's call our person Sarah. Sarah's just signed up. She has an incredible experience with the product. She wants to see if she can make a go of it and she doesn't even want to tell her husband that she bought some product to get started. So, walk us through what you would, how you would counsel a new person to bring their spouse, their husband, their boyfriend onboard, and what does that look like?Tim:Yeah, that's really a, it's a good question. One of the things that we do, and even if you don't have no a husband who's supportive with you right now, but you have a team of people, we always engage the husband or partner of the person before they start the business. So if they've already bought some product and they're already ready to go for it, like one of the worst things that you can do is hide it from your husband because if you try and hide it out of the gate, then how does that ultimately end? Right? Like ultimately they're going to figure it out and then when they figure it out, if they already have skepticism, then you saying that, I know I was hiding this from you, but like that's not going to build more trust with them. That's only going to erode it more.So right out of the gate we sit with spouses and we ask them for what their questions are like, let's get it all out there, let's have the conversation. And so, trying to address those concerns right out of the gate is really, really important. Or I would say to the people listening to this, like if you don't feel confident doing that yet with your team as you bring people on it with someone in your upline, right? Someone who's been successful and say, Hey, would you engage my husband as well? And having a conversation. And what we do first that is incredible is we always help the spouse, the husband, the partner, understand the compensation plan. It's so important because until they understand that they have no idea how to talk about the business because we have been trained since we were like 16 years old to trade hours for dollars, which you know, Beth isn't the way this business works?And so getting the husband to understand that compensation plan by someone who's been successful and can answer their questions ultimately, then that even gets more of them on board and they can answer questions and then they begin. I've seen, many times or the husband starts looking at the wife and going, is this what you want to do? Like, why don't we try and go for this rank? Or when, what's your goal to try and get to that? And you start to see them be engaged when they start to get how the business works also.Beth:Absolutely. And one of the pieces that when one of my upline, is also Blair Critch, and they also have a passion for marriage, and she had brought to my attention in the beginning, she said every Sunday night have a family meeting. So, I would sit down and write in understanding the comp plan and the goals. That is so huge. And when we talked the first time before we were interrupted by the thunderstorm and wifi, you had said to me that piece of the comp plan and since we started that when someone new comes aboard, I always say to them, listen, let's schedule a zoom with your husband in the next four days so that we can talk about this first bonus. We'll look at the comp plan, he can ask me questions and I also have had my husband have some personal phone calls without the spouse there because he'll say, let me, you know, let me give them a quick call.And it's really, I've heard back from the people that have engaged with us to say the whole process has reunited them in a way in their marriage, like the beginning, because you're working toward a common goal, you're communicating your sharing. I will say to Don, I will say, here's my goal this month. Here's what I need to do. And I give him permission to push me a bit because you know I do that when I'm, when I'm on a fitness journey right now I'm, I want a Peloton and I could go out and buy one. But I said, okay, this is what I'm going to do. I'm going to run to the red line every day, give it, and we have the goal because we want to redo the garage. So, it's like the network marketing piece. So, the communication of the goal and having that. Now do you bring your kids into, to part of the celebrating of when you reached certain ranks or milestones, do they come into play as well?Tim:Yeah, absolutely they do. And I want to say this to everyone just to summarize what you're saying to Beth because it's so good. We don't like this truth sometimes, but the truth is no other person will impact your success more than your spouse, positively or negatively outside of you. Right? There's no other person that's going to impact your success more than your spouse, whether positive or negative. And so, and that's true for both sides of it. And so, when we don't include the spouse in that, we're kind of setting ourselves up for more obstacles than we need to or even for failure at sometimes. And so, I love the fact that you're getting husbands involved in and having those conversations. It really, really is a huge part. But with the kids, absolutely. So, we do little milestone things with our kids. We have a 13-year-old and a 10-year-old.And so, you know, we do everything with them from vision boards to they know, you know, mom's going for a particular rank this month or a particular goal. So, we're all going to sacrifice. And then, you know, when we get to the end of it, we've done like mini shopping sprees with them or when it's been really big. We've taken a trip together and it's fun because when your kids know that, especially if they're younger, if your kids know that, they're like pushing my wife, you know their mom also, where they're like, mom, how's it going with the goal? And you want some accountability and your goals, get your spouse and kids involved. They will hold you accountable, you know, if there's kind of a carrot or prize on the other side for sure.Beth:Oh absolutely. For sure. They love that piece. I have an almost empty nest and so when I started in network marketing, I had one in junior high and one in high school. Donnie was in junior high and McKenzie was in high school and we did that. We looked at, okay, and this is what I'm working toward. And I was really clear too, we talk a lot on this podcast, him about not dropping the glass balls, your spiritual life, your family life, your health goals, because all of those pieces have to be a part of your success with your business. And so having the communication with your spouse of like, Hey, this week, and I told I have a retreat this coming weekend and it's been planned and we talked about is this a good time, is this, how does this work with our son's schedule? How does this work with your schedule and feeling as though it's a team effort and the goals and they are all a part of the whole family piece.So I want to back up because something just came to me. I was looking at my notes before I got on of frustrations that I've heard from women that are starting in the business of helping that spouse to unpack that U Hall of skepticism. So, I always like to let people know like here are the reasons why the network marketing industry is good for women, especially women who want flexibility and freedom to perhaps be at home with their kids to not have that glass ceiling. What I saw when I first got started is I didn't have to figure out a distribution channel or build out a technology platform or hire a marketing team or HR, the zillion things that our family business had us doing because building a traditional business requires all of those things and all I had to do was talk to people, share the love of the product, share the company, build community and culture. Those were the pieces. It was like, I could start making money from day one. What are some of the ways that you help spouses to understand when they have that skepticism? Oh, nobody makes money in these businesses. Oh yeah, blah blah blah. What are, what are your go to points?Tim:Yeah, yeah absolutely. Because it's a huge issue. I mean some guys come into it and they think their wives should make like thousands of dollars the first month or if not it's a scam of some kind. You know? And I think one part is definitely understanding the compensation plan so that they have that as a framework for their, just their knowledge and understanding of how it all works. So that's a big one. But also, like you got to explain to your spouse and help them understand that building a business like they can't expect year 10 results on a month one business. Like it's not going to happen. And so, you are going to put in a lot of work early on to build the business and then ultimately as you stick with it and you don't quit, you know, you keep going. Then ultimately the income far exceeds the hours that you're putting in.But it's real work, like it's hard. And so, having that conversation early on for them to understand this is going to be difficult. So, I always encourage women that are coming into the business and starting their business to look at their husband and just literally look in the eyes and say, would you support me for six months? Would you please support me in this for six months? I'm not asking you for like the rest of your life, but for six months because it's going to take time and it's going to take hard work and I'm not going to make a bunch of money early on. But that's the way a business works. And obviously the lower investment, right? Like you said, not the complication and the lower investment to get a business is what makes network marketing such an incredible opportunity for so many people. So, is that, does that answer the question, Beth?Beth:Yep. And I love, I love that piece of it. If I went to my husband and said, listen, I want to go back to school and become a physician's assistant. That's what my sister did when she was 35 years old. So, did she make money right out of the box? No, she invested. I mean, you're going to make money right away in network marketing. You can start earning while you learn. But I like to say that. So, we always hear, Oh, she became a six-figure earner. She became this, she became that. And so, people think it's immediate success like you said. And so, I always say, what would happen if you invested five years? You said one, and I would say if I told you that showing up consistently, and maybe we did people, I always say, how much time do you have to invest?Well, okay, so a teacher that's making $1,000 a week or $1,500 become much time. Is she investing and preparing her lesson plans? How much time do you invest in preparing your sermons and working with your youth groups and helping everything in the church? So, I always say that the time commitment will reflect the income. And also, there's a piece of it too that we have to look at. People don't get lucky that some people walk in and have a larger network. Like Becky walked in and she had a blog following, right? She had people that were, that were curious and interested in what she was doing. She still had to have conversations, but someone that might have just started on social media or just started marketing will have a different path.So I'm always saying keep your blinders on, believe it can be you ask for spiritual guidance, always right? As for, I always say in my prayers in the morning, I take action with faith and clarity. Who will I serve today? And then having the spouse on board, the family on board, and being exceptionally coachable. These are like all pieces. So when you see someone that comes in into your space and wants to have you, we're going to talk about one last thing and wants to have you talk to their spouse and they're excited, they've got belief, they're ready to go, they've got the desire, and then it doesn't go as planned. The success isn't immediate. How do you then revisit, do you revisit that conversation? Because the last piece is commitment to go until no matter what. So, can you talk a little bit about commitment as a family, what you've seen with some of the couples that you've worked with?Tim:Yeah. In fact, I also, I tell a lot of women when I have opportunities like this, to have these conversations that if your husband or partner believes or thinks that you're going to quit, they're not going to get on board. And if you're just objective about it, can you blame them? Right. Like if you, if the tables were returned and they wanted to start something, but they were always, you know, complaining or they weren't putting in the work or they weren't setting the goals or they just were super negative or whatever it is, you would look and say, are you about to quit this? You know, and so your mindset on even the person building the business to say, I'm not going to quit. I'm going to keep building this. I'm going to keep going. Builds faith in your husband, builds faith in your kids.And when that's there, of course they're more likely to get around it and to keep going. And when you are struggling, reach out to, again, someone in the upline or someone on your team to have the conversation with you and your spouse. So, to sit together with both of you again and say, okay, so you set some goals and they weren't there. Well let's revisit it. Like you said that, is it the time you're putting in, you know, did you have too high of expectations of how much time you could put in or do you need to readjust some things? You can put some more time in, you know, what are those income producing activities? Are you doing them or are you not doing them? And having that honest conversation with the both of them together helps again, just realign, re-establish a baseline, and then setting new goals together and then helping them run towards that for a season. So, the struggle happens when those conversations happen in a silo and the spouses aren't talking with each other because that's not going to build more alignment and trust with them.Beth:And this is a big piece too, is not bringing the negativity and that using the second, then we open ourselves up for the complaining, the negativity, the doubt, and using your spouses as kind of the punching bag for that. Then they're like, well, this isn't making you happy. So, making sure that positive mindset, let's jump to you dealt with this personally. You started to see it in Becky's business. You started to see that there was really a need to educate, to inform, to support the spouses. So, you jumped into a book project, talk about the book, how can people get their hands on it and share a little more about that journey. I love it. I've read it, I've shared it. It's in my, when I send out a new person, joins my team personally, they get a package from me and that is always inside of there. It's kind of like the fab fit and fun box. That's one of my pieces inside of their welcome box. So, share a little bit more about your book and where people can get their hands on that. And you know that was a huge project for you.Tim:Yeah, it was a huge project and now we're having this conversation. We're seeing how marriages were being hurt, women were giving up. And so, I couldn't understand why nobody else was addressing or talking about this or getting resources. And so, after several months of like me personally wrestling and like fighting with God, because I felt a calling to write this book, you know, and I didn't want to, and I got enough going on in my life. Like all of that, I ended up, you know, writing this book. And I mean literally thousands of people and thousands of husbands that have gotten their hands on it, you know, weekly. Now I'm getting messages from people whose marriages are being helped and businesses are growing because of it. And it's just been a humbling, humbling journey and we'll see where this all goes. But my heart and passion for it is to see women build more successful businesses and see their marriages and families thrive in the process. So, you can get the book anywhere you can get on Amazon or Barnes & Noble or anywhere you want as well as I record it on audible. And so that was a big part cause a lot of husbands don't read. And so, guys are engaging it and it's just been received really, really well. And I'm humbled to be a part of it.Beth:Well, I thank you so much for that resource for thousands and thousands of spouses that just needed to hear and have it in their audible when they're walking the dogs when they're at the gym and also for that push to create conversations and to create a way to bring the whole family on board. So, it's huge in my business as a shift to help spouses. It's also brought to light that when someone comes aboard, we don't have that in our onboarding process. That question, and I've added it. Tell me about your family. Tell me about the support. What, what does support look like for you? So, I like to leave everyone with a good question. And that question I always would say to say each week is how does support look? And being able to ask to ask your spouse to say, listen, this is what support looks like for me and what you need from me.Like have that open level of conversation instead of being reactive, be proactive. I know that when life feels aligned for my family, it's when I'm in a proactive state, when I've really, really blocked my calendar. When I'm not running from here and they're trying to be on the phone, having a conversation with my spouse, checking messages. I always say this, Tim, be wherever your feet are, if you're with your spouse, be with your spouse, not with your team on your phone. If you're with your kids, be with your kids and block that time and there will not be resentment if you are so mindful of that time being spent and go to the date night, keep your phone in your purse, your team will survive, right? So, I want to end with three ways. I'm just throwing this out at you. Three ways that you can tell people to keep their marriage alive and vibrant while building a successful network marketing business.Tim:Oh, you're asking me three ways. Three ways. I thought you were…I was waiting for you to give the magical three ways Beth. Three ways. Okay. Three ways to keep your marriage alive while you're, okay, so you said this, but one is definitely a regular date night, right? Regular date night, family night. You got to do it. You got to carve out the time. Like you just said, your team will survive, and your spouse won't resent you. So that's number one. Number two, you have to include your spouse. We've talked a lot about that in this, but the spouse, can I talk about this a ton in the book? Like the spouse can't just sit on the sidelines and just observe from afar your business, they got to have a couple of small contributions. You got to share the wins with them. Ultimately, you want for your wins to become his wins as well as you go through this.So there's got to be some, some contribution on their part. And then, let's see, what's a third one? Oh, this is so good. Okay. You've got to treat your spouse. You got to be the spouse that you want your spouse to be. So just kind of an overall, as you're building this business, flip the script and say, you know, how would I want my spouse to react when this is going on? Or if, or if I was building a business and things weren't going like maybe you had even hoped, like how would I hope my spouse would respond and then respond that way or what would I hope they would do if the tables were turned and then act that way with them as you're going through this process, because it's a journey and building a business is hard. Anybody that's going to tell you that building any type of business is easy is lying to you.Beth:Amen to that. It's hard and I love it. You want to be, that's huge for sure. Marriage, longevity. I'm going on 25 years of being married. I love those pieces and yes, it is hard and be the spouse you want to be. And here's one that I'm going to add to it, because I didn't do this in the beginning and this just came to mind is, you know, you get teams on the West coast, she get teams in London and I would go up to my office at night and I would, you know, work and he would go to bed without me. And so I'm going to add that there may be one night a week that you're working on a different time zone, but 99% of the time, shut down, create a boundary around your time together and, and go to bed at the same time.Like have that ritual of whatever that because that's where you start to feel that disconnection. And so that's been a big piece in terms of being the spouse that I wanted to have was how would I have felt if he was working all night, didn't come downstairs and check on me. And they hear you in your office, you're on zooms, you're laughing. You know? So that shifted a year ago and I felt this complete reconnection. And so, I appreciate that so much. Be the spouse that you want to be. So, Tim, any closing thoughts you have for our podcast listeners today?Tim:No, I think this has been great. I just want to encourage everybody, and I know you do this Beth, and it's been part of your journey as well, but if you make it to the end and you've been super successful in your business, but you turn around and your marriage and family is in a destructive place, you haven't won and you haven't been successful. A definition of success, somebody shared with me years ago, success is when the people closest to you respect you the most. And so yes, you need to build a business. Yes, you need to work on it, but you really can do it in a way that you see your marriage and your families thrive in the process. And so, I guess maybe that's the closing thought.Beth:That is a perfect closing thought. Thank you so much Tim, for being with us today and grab his book, Amazon and Barnes & Noble. There's still time for you guys to get tickets to the Top Summit. It's in February, it's in Naples. Go to the topsummit.com you'll be able to hear Tim and Becky speak onstage on this very topic. I'll also be speaking on another topic, but it's a whole lot of fun. I don't even want to give a sneak peek, but it has to do with finding your spouse, but we're relating it to how you find the perfect recruit network marketing, so it's going to be a whole lot of fun. And Tim, thank you and I will see you in February and real life.Tim:Absolutely.Beth:All right, cool. Hey, you guys, check out the podcast next week because it is going to be something you don't want to miss. I have another exceptional guest who is also an author and we will catch you guys all next Monday.Thanks so much for hanging with me today on the podcast and remember, you can create what you crave. If you're looking for a supportive sisterhood, I would love to see you over in our free Facebook group. As most of you know, I love camp. It's part of, 'You're Not the Boss of Me' because when we're building this thing, we're doing this thing. We need a supportive sisterhood and I also crave more fun and more connection. Join us at camp over in the Facebook world, thecampelevategroup.com or just click on the link above and we will see you around our campfire and help you to create what you crave.

Happy New Year and a New Decade!!! Wow we are in the 2020s already! It definitely seemed like this was meant to be way in the future and my biggest disappointment is that the microwaveable mini pizza that turned into a large one in Back to The Future isn't real. As we move into this new decade, there are many things from this past year and decade in general (especially the latter half) that we really need to leave behind. And this episode is all about those things and my highly opinionated point of view on them (and yours as shared on my Instagram - thank you for that!). So what are the things we talk about in this episode that need to be left behind? Mom shaming, unsolicited parental advice, telling moms enjoy every minute of it, trolling people on social media, being flat out role in the name of "woke culture" - seriously so many negative people out there bringing others down - these things really need to be left behind in 2019. I also discuss some other trends that I think we need to get away from - such as recording everyone's bad moments and sharing them on social media to shame them. I give a detailed reason why this needs to be reduced and what the impact I see of this unhealthy habit being trickled down to our kids.  I also discuss some other things that have become super trendy on social media - aka thirst traps! - people talking about them for likes and follows - such as vulnerability and talking about anxiety for the sake of getting likes. The woman supporting woman movement? Mom supporting mom movement? Yeah these need to slow down to realness only as well. And can we please retire the use of letter boards and ridiculous filters on our images?! Why do we need to distort reality to such a high degree? I mean I'm still going to use the Paris filter on Instagram from time to time and definitely will use Lightroom for some images to correct the color - but we can all agree the air brushed photo look that reduces you to having no features and bone structure on your face can go?!? Right? There are some other things we talk about as well that you need to listen to this episode for. Check it out and subscribe to the podcast if you haven't already! Have a great week!

All right. Welcome back to mindset radio. I'm your host Jeff Banman. And today I have begged, pleaded, convinced, guilt, tripped and otherwise, and probably now responsible for dinners and drinks for the rest of my life. Uh, but our guest today is the man, the myth, the legend, Jordan harbinger, and more, more myth, I think. I know. Don't beat yourself up. That's not allowed. Uh, you've done an exceptional job. I love listening to your show. Believe it or not, not everybody knows who you are, which is unfortunate. I've run across people all the time and I'm like, Hey, I finally convinced Jordan to come on the show. And they're like, who? And I know that's hard to believe...it's easy for me to believe, man. My, I have an infant son who doesn't give a crap who I am. Right? And he never will. I think. Isn't that how it is with kids?No, I, I don't know. Cause here's the funny thing with even with a little man this morning, right? So just turned two in November and we were getting ready to go for a walk, do whatever. And I turned around and I cross my arms, he looked right at me and just crossed his arms. Exactly. It's a big grin on his face. So that'll start, it'll start to come eventually.I gotta tell you this, uh, I've got, I interview a lot of people for the Jordan harbinger show as you know, cause you, you do listen to the show and thank you for that. And I've got, you know, acquaintances, I should say buddies, whatever that are like well known household names across at least America. And they're like, yeah, you know, I thought when I have kids I'm gonna finally be the cool dad because you know, super famous, super rich person that everyone, you know, cow toes to walk into a restaurant, never wait for a table, never pay for stuff half the time. And he's like, no, my kids are still like, can you drop me off at the corner? I don't want people to see that I'm with you. And like, and some of it's for different reasons. Like, you know, most of us, we're just going to be too nerdy to hang out with the kids.And for him, maybe it's like half nerdy half. They don't want their friends asking questions for their dads or something like that. Like you're dead if during that one time or that one movie. But still, it's kind of like no matter how cool like you can be on, we literally had this conversation on their yachts and they're like, yeah, well, and I'm like, I'm on your yacht watching the NBA playoffs on a big screen TV that comes up from like the mahogany whatever. And your kids are like, dude sucks. You know, like it's you just, you can't,no, never, ever. You can't man. I mean it's, you know, I've got the spectrums. Like we were talking about 15 and a half. She splits a year with me. So I spent my 45th birthday standing in line at the DMV to get her learner's permit. I'm excited though. So I mean, and you know it, it's coming back around. That's what I'm watching. They kind of, especially with the girls, you know, my oldest now coming closer to 16, we have a whole different relationship and it's very cool to kind of see that come around. Like she's excited to do stuff with me. Um, so it does, it ebbs and flows, but yeah, dude, it doesn't matter who you are. You could be the coolest cat on the face of the planet. Your kids going to still be like, alright, leave me alone. I think that's the way it goes.Yup. Exactly. So I, he's five months old. I got a few more years.A bit of time, man. You got a little bit yeah, that that first, uh, that first year and a half. You're just like you are, I have no idea who I am.Right? Yeah. I would say common. Common advice I've been given is the first 10 years they'll think I'm cool and then the next 10 years they won't. And then like in their twenties, it's kind of 50, 50, and then after age 30, again, they realize I'm not a total dumb ass and I actually have something to say. I put my own experience with my own parents, like my parents are awesome. My parents don't know anything. Oh, turns out all that stuff that I thought I knew better than I was only half. Right. Okay, fine. I was 10% right, but I'm still going to count it because I can never let them have this one. And now that I'm 40, I'm like, Oh, time is limited, you know, just enjoy it. But I don't want to waste your listeners time with reminiscing orI think it's, you know, it's all relevant and it's all things that we, uh, deal with. You know, it's like when I had Phil McKernan on and, uh, even Sherry walling and some people, you know, uh, you know, we talked about the family issue several times, especially in our community. It's like, how do I go from being fireman, a cop, you know, quote unquote hero, which I hate that term. Um, you know, but, and then step in and be a dad and be like a normal dad or a normal mom, you know? Uh, it's tough.Why do you hate that term? I think a lot of people your position, they hate that. I mean I, my dad loves his hobby is like paying for policemen's meals at restaurants, which by the way I think is not allowed in most places, but indeed in Detroit they're like, thanks. Yeah, they're hot dog, but out here in California they're like, I cannot do that. Please do not do that. I have to fill out paperwork when you do that. So, but he loves it. And, and uh, it's funny cause I think a lot of people look at servicemen, firemen, cops, et cetera as heroes. But yeah, I guess I guess it's probably uncomfortable hearing it to your face. I would, I don't know how I'd feel. It's hard to say thatit's caused a lot of conflict. It's interesting because Phil Phillip has asked me to give my one last talk in February here in Boulder. Um, and it's brought up a lot of stuff. And some of that is what you know, we're dealing with now is like, really now you've done this, you've done a lot of work on yourself, you've done a lot of different, you know, aspects. But I think for me it's like I don't, that's not, it's not why I did what I did. It's, I, I didn't do it for any of that and I'm not, you know, I think part of the thing, it's like I laid in bed and like, I want your house to burn down because I want something to go do. I want to like, I want war and conflict because I want to fulfill my destiny, my job. How does that, you know, mentally conflict with and emotionally conflict with you? Saying thank for, thank you for my service or you know, Hey, I think you're a hero. No, dude, I'm actually not because it's not how it works inside. Uh,that's, that's funny if, yeah, I think if people knew that firemen got accepted, wow, look at this big ass house burning down, man, there's, this one was really expensive. This is going to be a fun one. Then probably public perception change.Well, I mean, in, it's in for me, you know, old school, you got to think, you know, I started back in the early nineties and then when I, it's like when I came back from Kosovo in 99 nobody knew what the hell was going on. Nobody knew the services invaded and committed mass atrocities in this country and the things that we dealt with, you know, it was just, it was a blank. Right? I mean, it was, it's interesting to me pre nine 11 post nine 11 you know, when nobody gives a shit that I was a fireman. The only people that cared that I was a firefighter was the, you know, seven year old kids coming in to check out the fire truck. Nobody, you know, you didn't walk down the street. Rarely did anybody offer to buy your meal for ya on occasion. But it was super limited and nobody was walking around saying, Hey, thank you for your service. You know, pre nine 11 it just wasn't existing. And now it's in your face always. You know, and, and I, I, I get it, you know, Mike Brown and I talked about this the other day. It's, he's got a buddy that always responds with thank you for your support when they say that and then they get a little awkward because it's like, wait a minute, did I, do I support the war? Do I, do I agree with that? So it kind of is a throwback to them, uh, in a kind way, if you will.Yeah. And, and, uh, look, I think people now more than ever appreciate it just because it is in the media a lot, but I understand how the, to bring this back to value for your listeners, I understand how your self image doing whatever you do might not match what the public sees and that can actually cause some discomfort and have that not because I do anything particularly heroic, let's be clear. But people will say things like, Oh, I'll get a video from a friend. And they're like, I met the mall and the person in line in front of me at this restaurant is listening to your show. So I started talking to them and they were like amazed that I knew you. And so I'm sending a video with this random like Chinese woman in line for dumplings. She is really excited and sort of getting all like, you know, Oh my gosh, she's Jordan harbinger.I'm all excited and that makes me uncomfortable. Not because I don't enjoy it. I think it's awesome. And I think most kids up til age, whatever 30 I probably like if only that would ever happen to me, just one time in my life. But when it actually happens it can be highly uncomfortable because people get so excited and there's a part of me that's like I can never live up to that. Like I can never live up to that. And we see our own blooper reel in our head because we, they got like tripped over his own foot last night cause he stepped on a Lego and like yelled at his kid and then felt bad about it and then like got work late because he spilled coffee all over his crotch and didn't want to get laughed at. So he had to turn around and go home and change his pants.Like what? That's our self image. And then when other people are like, wow, you're so awesome. It's like thank you. But also the, you have cognitive dissonance that comes into play, doesn't feel comfortable. And so if you're in a service position and you feel uncomfortable when people give you those kinds of accolades, then congratulations. You're a normal human being and you're not a narcissist or just somebody who's maybe not done a ton of work accepting that kind of praise, which makes you a normal human being. So I want people to feel comfortable with that and not feel like, Oh yeah, I don't like that. And that makes, that makes me even more weird for not liking praise. Something's wrong with me. That's not the case. It's always almost always the case that when you feel awkward about somebody giving you high praise, it just means you probably have a healthy self image. Maybe you skew a little bit more towards negative, but that's okay because I think we're as humans kind of designed to do that. We have a negativity bias. And it's completely healthy,man. I, you know, that's exactly, so this is perfect conversation because you know, the way I look at one, why I wanted to bring you on the show, it's like you're the encyclopedia of knowledge now, right? You've been interviewed just a massive amount of people and you've gotten a chance to really one, learn a lot, but, but contribute a lot out there and you know, for today, the problem that I wanted to kind of have the conversation with you around that, that I feel like we all deal with is, especially in the services we have, this need to be everything to everyone all the time.I understand that, right? So let me, let me disassemble that a little. You mean that if you're, let's say you're a policeman, you mean you've got to be a cop both when you're at home, but also when you're out with your friends, but also when you're at work naturally, but also even on your lunch hour when you're just trying to house a steak hoagie and not get any on your uniform or cheese steak and not get any on your uniform, you can't really turn it off cause it's part of your identity. Right?Which component of that there? It's a 24 hour gig.Sure. So in every occupation has that, but you guys, and I say you guys meaning just fire, police, military, whatever. Hopefully that's clear. You guys have it more because yes, I'm a or interview or radio host or whatever you want to call it all the time. But nobody's like, Oh my God, is anybody a radio host? This man's having a heart attack, right? Like that will never happen. Interview his wife and see how she's feeling right now. Like that's never going to happen to me and no sane world will that happen. But if you're hanging out with your family on your one day off, cause you've been working a bunch of overtime, putting out fires in California and you finally got to go to your kid's party for like three hours and somebody passes out, you can't be like, look man, I have been working a lot. And that's all you, you can't do that, right? You're, you're on. And if you're a police officer and your daughter brings home a sketchy looking guy, you're not like, you know, I'm just going to pack these in guy.Yeah, this is okay. I know I recognize the gang tattoos, but look man, I am not on the clock. Have fun honey. Like that's not going to happen either. Not only because you're a dad, but because you're like, I know what that symbol means and that's, there's no way you're leaving the house with that guy. Right. And I'm sure that that happens all the time. And so in a way it's like with VR, it's, it's one of those with great power comes great responsibility. But sometimes it's like, well fine, but I want to turn the responsibility off. So I can play Xbox, dammit.Yeah, man. There's, yes. And there's this place where it's like, I mean, I, years ago all confess, long time ago I, you know, when I first started the fire service, I had firefighter plates, you know, tagline, license plates. I eventually took them off. I was like, you know what, cause I don't want to stop at the accident anymore. I don't want to, I don't want to be this. If I'm not in it on it, I want to be just average person. I want to be okay to just be, you know, Jeff, not fireman, not, you know, military guy, not agency guy and anything else. I just want to hang out. Uh, you know, I think that's a big problem.I can imagine because you can't, it's like never taking a day off, which I think we all know what that feels like as well. Just owning my own business. I know what it's like to be like. I mean, I'll sit down to a nice relaxing meal on Thanksgiving and Christmas and I'm like, I should be answering fan mail, zeroing out my inbox, reading this book for doing some prep for this show. What do I have to do? I mean, I will literally be, I try not to do this one. I'm holding my kid, but even sometimes it happens and I'll go, Oh man, in five minutes I got to put him down because I really have to get back to work. And I'm like, no, I don't. It's Sunday at 1:00 PM what I need to do is put him in bed and go watch Netflix.You know? That's, that's what I need to do. But I can't really turn it off. And I think for people who are in positions, like what your audience and what you, the position that you're in, it's even more dangerous because if I say, what's the worst thing that's going to happen if I don't finish this book today? The answer is, well, I guess I could do it tomorrow. I just have to get up a little bit earlier and maybe listen while I'm at the gym. But if somebody says, what's the worst thing that happens if I don't stop at this accident? You start catastrophizing because you either start saying, Oh my gosh, well this could happen, this can happen. You start catastrophizing or you just start thinking nothing. Who cares? I got to get on with my life. But then you probably have a crisis of conscience that's like, yeah, I shouldn't think that way.What kind of horrible person drives past an accident when they have the training to stop it. So you're compelled to, nothing's really compelling me to bust out my Kindle. Right. Like a little bit of guilt that I can turn off cause I realize it's a little irrational. Your guilt is maybe that person's child is in hell a and you don't stop because you're halfway to whole foods and your kid's crying. You know like w what, what? It's a different game and I don't think, I don't think a, what do you call us? Civilians? Like I don't think us, right. Joe's like understand that fully. Because if you're a teacher in somebody who doesn't understand their math homework and they can't get ahold of you, Oh well you'll, you'll help them out on Monday. But if somebody passed out on the sidewalk, you have almost like a moral obligation and it's hard to turn that off and realize that you need your own sanity.So I think a lot of people in your position, you put yourselves last more so than most parents do, more so than most teachers, more so than most, I don't know, public servants in another position, like the mayor of most towns is not sitting at home on the weekend and worrying about what's in the office. Um, it may be a big city, but most, most of them are hanging out with their family and having Turkey, you're the one that has to be awake at 3:00 AM for the call. And that, that level of stress is not good for you longterm. And then of course they say take a vacation and you're like, I wish I freaking good. You know, I'm on vacation thinking, hope nothing bad happens to my friends. Even if you can put society out of your mind, you got your buddies out there.Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and it's, you know, it's interesting because like we do, we, we leave ourselves last in line and there's a level of expectation I think even in relationship and friendships and et cetera. Like there's this normal like why can't you just turn it off? Why can't you just be home right now? Why can't you, you know, you're not at work, why can't you just leave that at work? And so that's kind of this be everything to everybody all the time that shows up. It's like, okay, so I've got this side of me that I can't turn off. It's a 24 seven deal that I have this moral, ethical and you know, emotional response of ness to right. That I just am always tuned into what's happening. And then, you know, my wife wants me to be freed up and easygoing and have fun and not care, right. And, and not have this thing. And so it's like there's this ebb and flow, constant conflict. And I know, cause I've listened to some of your shows that have been radically helpful for me and a lot of ways, uh, you know, the people that you've had on and just kind of beginning to dissect how I begin to create transition points or points of recovery or understand kind of how I flow from one ideal person to another ideal person in a way, right. Without then the guilt and shame and crap that goes with it.Yeah, I think there's a lot of cognitive, well we've mentioned cognitive dissonance, but there's brain science that goes into to this like catastrophizing, what's the worst thing happened? And you start going down the if trail and the stakes are higher for what you guys are doing, guys and gals, let's be clear now, there's a lot of women out there now and I, I like, um, and you know, you're in this weird position where society will look at everything. Well, police especially now, um, firemen, I dunno if are, if you're immune to this, but, uh, I can't, nothing comes to mind. But with police man, now it's like you're under fire and all of you under fire. Whenever there's any kind of negativity. And I, I would imagine any cop out there now, in fact, I wonder this, I'm so curious if, if police now feel like they're looked at differently by a lot of folks just because of what's been in the news and that really, it really sucks to hear that because I mean, when I was little, the police would come in your house and you'd say, Hey, do you want some coffee?And they'd be like, sure, thank you. Now I feel like that would just never happen. Um, because there's just this more arms length distance, at least in bigger cities, especially, um, with where the police stand. When I grew up, I didn't grow up in a small town, but they would come in and they didn't take their shoes off because, you know, that's, that's a little bit too much. But they would have, you can make them tea or coffee and they would be like, thank you. Yeah, that's, that's great. Now I don't think that's allowed. And I remember recently, I live in San Jose, California. We had a package stolen and the cop came in and sat down at our kitchen Island and open up his laptop and did the report. And I was like, wow, this is such a different experience than I've experienced anywhere else.And even just the, the times that I've dealt with the police in other big cities, even in New York, when they come in, it's just like, you almost feel like you're at the police station. And I'm like, I didn't commit any crime. I called you guys, you know? And I remember just like feeling really intimidated and I realized, Oh yeah, they have half or one, some percentage of the time these guys walk into a house and someone tries to stab them or something, you know, like, so I gotta just sort of keep that in mind, but you can't live your whole life that way. And that's just really easy for me to say as a fricking podcast or it radio guy and you guys can't turn it off. And that takes its toll. There is science behind this. When you are in fight or flight mode or when you are at least an elevated stress for a long period of time, you don't, uh, you wreck havoc on parts of your brain. Um, you age faster, your heart, uh, is obviously not as healthy as it should be. And if you're always eating on the go, those two risk factors combined are just not good lifestyle. Um, I don't want to say choices because it's, it's hard to say that it's a choice, but they're not good lifestyle factors I should say. And that's, that's really bad for everyone around you too. And so you're really caught between a rock and a hard place. I hadone too. Yah. Which is not only all those core factors to it, but then, and it's finally cool because that's why I think we're doing well with the podcast and we're growing significantly in this community because we can now have these conversations and five years ago, 10 years ago, like this just, it wouldn't even be accepted. The kind of, the idea of looking, of looking at what's going on of, you know, emotional safety and the things that we deal with. Like when I grew up that, that, those were not conversations that were had at all ever around, you know, we live in a world of suck it up, shove it down, slam it down, deal with it, and do your job. And that's how a lot of us, especially kind of in our upper thirties and forties, you know, that's how we grew up. That was the environment.And it's cool for me to at least to see that today we're able to have these conversations and they're listening, right? And people are more curious about how do I deal with this? How do I transition emotionally? How do I understand all these core factors? Right? They're just kind of the task and purpose factors and then the internal factors that are in play. I mean, I, I remember flying the episode you did with, uh, Gabriel as Rocky when you guys were talking about self-development, uh, and kind of go and add it, right? I can't remember what the tile they upset was right off hand. Uh, but I was texting you all the way through it. Like this is, you were spot on with it. Uh, I,I always remember Gabe and I do a lot of stuff together because he's a frigging genius with his research. Go ahead.Yeah, like in that [inaudible] that, that particular episode, I'm going to find it, tag it and put it into the show notes because that particular episode, you know, you went through and you talked about all the kinds of the bullshit that's out there, the reality of things, you know, he did a phenomenal job and kind of breaking down a look at self-development in a way that I believe made sense to our, would make sense to our community rather than kind of this hoopla, hippy dippy hang out kind of stuff. You know, you were talking about some of the programs you've gone to where you just felt like totally violated in it. Like, get me outta here. Uh, and you know, and you were sharing some of those stories along the way that I think really resonated with me. And resonates with our world because it's like I don't, I it, there's a fear that if I become soft or soften myself, I won't be capable of doing my job as well.Yeah. And there may be some truth to that, but it becomes, it becomes problematic because of course you wouldn't parent the same way that you police. Right? Like, well, I, in theory you should probably not do that. Yeah. I mean, what, who am I to tell anybody how to police? But that's the idea behind it and it's really, really tricky to make recommendations like that because I'm sure people out there see therapists and things like that and it's like, okay, great. Have you ever been to Iraq, Afghanistan? No. Have you ever put out a fire I've ever seen burned a child, you know, and you're there and the parents' reaction, have you ever had someone pull a knife on you? Uh, you know, while you're in a closed space and your partner is taking a leak? I don't know. You know, like all of these things are, it's hard to relate to and it's, it's hard to have somebody be like, you just need to relax more.It's like F you, right? Like, what do you tell? Sure. Tell me that while you have another sip of your latte over there buddy. Like, sure. I just need to ask some more. And then it's like try yoga and like what planet? It just feels like the people giving advice to first responders and military. It's just, they're on another planet. They're from a different planet. It's completely nonsensical in a lot of ways. And so it's not, it's not relatable, which makes it worse because it's like hearing some quack tell you to do something and it's like you just don't even understand my reality at all. And it makes you feel more isolated of cool because then you think, Oh, the help that's available is some Yodel with a four year degree who's never even left, you know, our city or state and has certainly never held, uh, held a position like mine in a F in a dirt lot like Iraq or Afghanistan.And now I'm sitting here like listening to him tell me what I need to do. It's just gotta be really isolating and frustrating and that I think is just part of the problem. And of course you've talked to other people with the same problems. It's a good support group, but you're mostly just venting as opposed to getting actionable strategies and that. That makes me kind of sad to hear because I think it's no surprise we rely on you to do your jobs to have a functioning society where I can sit here and sip my latte and Dole out unqualified advice. Right? Yeah.I mean I used to have this statement where it's like if I went to see somebody went down to sit with a psycho or whatever, I'm like, listen, if I am actually honest with you, if I actually share with you what you want me to share with you, you're going to have PTSD by the time we're done. You know what I mean? Yeah. You're going to be fucked up, like, like, and, and then I'm going to end, the problem is like we live in a world or the way our brains work, it says, so there's this whole world for me now kind of uncovering, which is this understanding of how to bring calm to chaos. All right, so we're back and you know, here's where we kind of left off and we were talking, you were, you were, were kind of exploring this understanding from the law enforcement aspect where you know, you're Sharon, you know, cops used to be able to come in and sit down, have a cup of coffee, you know, actually converse with you where today it's like 24, seven always on edge.And it's this, you know, it was interesting as we're going, because I've been looking at this quite a bit, it's like this collapse of, of stress between the public and the providers, if you will. Right? So it's like this, there's this vicious circle that's happening. I think now that's been happening over the last several years where you know the police are a little bit more under fire being watched being you know, putting them on edge, the public's on edge about the police. It's like this high state of conflict where somebody has got a run in the middle and be like, okay can everybody just settled down for a second and take a breath and kinda hit the reset button. I do see that happening significantly.Yeah, I can imagine that there's not a whole lot of resources out there. I mean it's like there are and there aren't and everyone complains about things like the VA. I don't really know much about that, but I do know that no matter how many resources are out there, it can be really tough. When you go home and your friends and neighbors are kind of oblivious, you almost maybe feel like you're living a secret life. Maybe you are living a secret life.Yeah, which my neighbor, my neighbor in Florida for years, it's like, dude, what do you do? Cause you're like disappear for several weeks and then you just play golf when you're home and your work in your garage. Like I don't understand what you do. Yeah, man. I mean I think the, I, you know, it's been an interesting conversation so far because we've kind of explored where for us there's not all the, the resources are limited and in the way that people understand or give us, and I'll say us from the community, the opportunity to express ourselves fully and actually deal with some of the struggles that we face and have an open, honest conversation or dialogue without freaking people out. I was, you know what you're talking about. If I said, if I sat out with a psych, it'd be like, you know, you'd have PTSD by the time we're done. The problem is if I lay out what I actually feel inside, I'm going to hit all the trigger words. You know what I mean? They're going to be like, you know, well I gotta call somebody, I gotta, we gotta fix this. This guy's, you know, suicidal or this guy's, you know, homicidal or whatever. It's like, no, this is just my life. This is just the way I operate.Yeah. I think that there's probably a bit of, what would you even call this, like a protective shell that everyone's in your position is able to put on, but I don't, is that healthy? That's the question, right? Is that something that is healthy and I'm not totally sure that it is. I think maybe it serves a purpose, but I think that it's also probably, there's probably a problem that I don't think most people can switch it on and switch it off. I think that's the biggest issue. That's the biggest problem is it's hard to turn it off. Then when you're at your daughter's graduation, it's just still there. And so yes, it sort of protects you, but is that something that you actually, is that healthy for you mentally?Yeah, it does. It actually work for you longterm? I mean it is, it's like we've, you know, I, I re relate it back to when I was a kid when I was three or four or five now my mom would always laugh at me because there's two things I played growing up. Fireman and army. Like that was it. And I had to put on blue corduroys to play fireman and then go change into Brown corduroys if I wanted to play army, like I had to be in context, if you will. Right? Even as a kid, and I think I've looked at that skill right now. If I take that as a skillset, how do I pull it on when I put on my uniform or when I put something on, it's like, okay, here's where I am. This is who I am for this period in time. And when I take it off, I'm no longer that right now I am transitioning into husband, wife, mom, dad, son, brother, friend, hanging out or whatever it might be.Yeah. That's got to be tricky and also mentally taxing, and I think that's very problematic because I don't think a lot, I don't think a lot of people really know that, including the people that are doing this, you know, that are in your position, know that there is such a cognitive cost, a psychological cause to making that switch. It's not just leave it at home. If you're shoving it down, it's like eating Brussels sprouts. If you don't like those, right, you're, you're cramming it in there and it wants to pop back out and it's all you're devoting cognitive bandwidth, brain power to keeping it from popping out, and that's unhealthy because it's stressful for you. It's taxing for you.It's wearing, it's wearing. I mean, I think that's where I look now at 45 exhausted most times. Right. If you actually, if I'm honest with myself and with people around me, it's like I'm just worn out.Yeah, I can imagine. And you're not going to rest well if you're consistently working on made to, I don't want to, I'm trying not to talk last here. If you just keep on pushing something down, you're not going to have, let's say you spend 10% of your cognitive bandwidth trying to push it down. 90% of you is there. So being present is tough. Um, focusing on self care is like last priority cause you're just trying not to screw up the family party by being a weirdo or whatever. Right? There's all kinds of stuff that that happens as a result of that, that that is invisible and that's, that's the problem. That's what's unhealthy. It's invisible. It's, that's what makes it insidious. That's the word I'm looking for. It's insidious. You don't see it coming because you think everything's fine, everything's fine, everything's fine. And then you're just like, why the hell am I tired constantly?How come I can't relax? And then it just, they throw a label on it like, Oh it's part of your PTSD or it's like residual trauma. And it's like, yeah, but the real truth is that you, you can't relax, you're not focused, you're constantly monitoring your surroundings even though you're in your own living room. Like that's super unhealthy. And I don't, I don't think maybe it doesn't affect everybody, but certainly people that have seen combat or conflict or people that are on this street every day, you know, like that type of stuff that doesn't just go away. And you even see it when, when a police officers and military or retired, there's, it just doesn't go away. And I think because as an evolutionary strategy, the people that survived to, to reproduce were the people that didn't shut that stuff down so easily or forget it. So. Right. They were constantly vigilant. I don't think some Roman soldier really necessarily retired and lived out the rest of his years. They probably were, I don't know, back then, dead at 30 max at or no.Well, yeah, you lose all value. I mean, in a sense a truck goes away, you lose all value. And that's where I've really looked at it to say, and you know, you brought up an interesting point where there are a lot of labels that go with us, right? It's, Oh, that's just PTSD, or Oh, you must have done something or you must have seen something. It's like, no, it's just this, this constant inability to transition effectively to kind of settle myself and to turn it off. Right. To bring the volume switch down a little bit. Um, you know, that's been the interesting exploration for me. Now, understanding kind of the biological factors that go into play, uh, deep inside in the way we are trained and developed. And then of course, you know, childhood trauma and everything else that comes into play for us. We just aren't given the tool to ebb and flow in this life that we've chosen.And yeah, it's more, it's more exhaustion. It's more, you know, self-driven stuff than it is any incident or seeing something or participating in something cause a greater population. You know, you've got chose to put on a uniform. I chose to go to combat or I chose to run in that burning building or I choose to save lives. I choose to do these things and going back to kind of where we started, it's like when you, when you call me a hero or when you elevate me, it almost dismisses what I do in a way. Does that make sense to you? I mean, what do you think about that?Um, can you clarify that a little? I need to make sure I know what you're, yeah,so, so for instance, you know, we talked about this internal struggle between like not wanting to be called a hero or not wanting to be acknowledged so much. You know, cause for me, I'm laying in bed hoping your house burns down or you know, I want to go to the next thing I want to call out on my SWAT team. I want to do these things. I want violence to occur out there in the world. And when you then call me a hero or you elevate me because of what I've chosen to do, that creates that separation right. Internally from kind of the external view of who I am. But in doing that, also, what I'm trying to struggle and balance with is like the acceptance of myself and myself in the, my place in society. It's, I feel like there's this unspoken expectation that says, you know, if we're a firefighter or a cop, you know, we're committed to service.We're committed to the people around us, you know? Yeah, we're there to save you. Yeah, we're heroes. But internally, I don't think any of us feel that way at all and we don't know how to express stuff very well. I mean, we're, I had one of the guys on the show not too long ago that literally like at 16 you know, he started riding firetrucks 16 and they ran a house fire people inside trapped and burned up and the chief sat him down in the car, pulled out a six pack of beer and says, okay, this is how you're going to solve it. You know, and no wonder he's an alcoholic later in life. Right? Yeah. Dude, that's the world, man. That's the world we live in.Yeah, that's a, that's problematic. If people are, and I'm sure that's the exception and not the rule, I hope it is. But if those are the tools that sort of the tools of the trade that you learn when you start the job or yeah, just hit the gym extra hard tomorrow, you know, like, okay, but that's a bandaid on a bullet hole. And that's very problematic because what happened, not just that it doesn't work, but then people think, man, you know, I am having a drink with the guys and burning off some steam. I am hitting the gym, I am going for a run, but I still feel kind of shitty. Something is wrong with me. And that's the dangerous part. Not like, Hey, this tool is not working. I gotta find something else. Because you know, this isn't working for everyone. Maybe we should research this. It's, this isn't working for me, but I serve shit. Don't want to be the guy that walks in and is like, I feel bad. Right. Maybe that's not the culture.It's absolutely not the culture. I mean that's, and that's where I think we're finally, you know, we're just, I mean we are, you know, this is partly why it's interesting to have you on the show because in this, in the entrepreneur space, right? I mean it's like you and I hanging out at MMT in park city, just kind of taking a break, sitting out on the balcony, bullshitting, right? In this, in this flip side of the world, there's a lot of advancement, a lot of development, a lot of openness around self discovery and what's happening and emotion and freedom around that. And, and that's, that's becoming very much more mainstream than it used to be. But our audience, I mean, we're still antiquated. I mean, we're still in the dark ages when it comes to that stuff. Like we are just on the cusp of these conversations flowing out across the, across these communities. Cause it is, it's, it is, shut it down, shove it down, deal with it. Um, suck it up, buttercup. I mean, those are the, that's the, that's the training. That's the conversation. And I've said for years, you know, the only acceptable emotion in these worlds is anger, right? You can't be too happy. You can't cause then you're fucking off. You can't be sad because then you're weak. But you can be as angry as you want to be. And I think that perpetuates. It's like it's a self perpetuating cycle we're dealing with constantly.Yeah. Th the anger is an issue. And I think a lot of guys just men in general have this as a default because we're not necessarily taught good emotional communication. And a lot of us are less wired for that in a way. And then lean on that and go, wow, where a guy, you know, and so I, I don't know about you, but my dad, his diff, he's a great guy by the way, just to clarify. But he's his default communication when he's frustrated a little bit sad, feeling a little bit stressed, feeling a little bit rushed, feeling like he is a little silly because he forgot something. He just goes and gets angry because he doesn't have the other channels. Right? Like he doesn't have the other modes. It's like he's got red and, and you're like, Hey, color this in blue. And he's like, uh, red. Right. He just can't do it. So there's fun dad. And then there's like angry dad and then there's normal dad, but there's not like sort of down today dad, there's just really short temper and shorter temper and that's no, that's sort of normal for him. His dad was the same way. All the guys in our family are the same way and I'm fighting that all the time.Man. You just described me to a T really the majority of the time. Yeah. Yeah. It's, uh, it's been difficult. I mean, I did the work with Elliot road kind of release the anger stuff, which really helps significant crazy, you know, the, on the hypnotherapy side. But it's, it's difficult. And for me, what I've noticed is it's really driven by this sense of anxiety and anxiety around not being good enough for everybody around me. Yeah, that's, that's problematic. But it's also thanks normal as well, if that makes sense. Yeah. Well, and that's, and that is, and that's kind of right. That's the purpose behind some of this show is to kind of normalize this, this conversation that says, okay, that's, yes, it's a problem. Yes. You know, it's an issue that needs attention and you're not abnormal. Right? You're not the only one feeling that way. And, and I like that you said that it's, it is, uh, there's a big man issue there around it cause it is, I mean we weren't really, we're taught to be, to create physical safety really well. We're not taught to create kind of emotional safety for the people around us at all. And a lot of waysit's a good point. And additionally, I mean even in addition to that, not only are you not taught to create psychological safety, it's not even prioritized. You know, you're not even doing it for yourself, let alone for other people. It would be different if we were also self if we were centered and grounded and you know, felt good about ourselves and that it was just, Oh, we're just sort of selfish as guys. It's like, no, we're not even creating that for ourselves, let alone for other people. And you can't really create it for other people until you create it in yourself. You know, we, we think we're fooling everyone and our kids raising these kids and we're like, yeah, I just want my daughter to be confident. Yeah. I just want my son to be [inaudible] when they see your example and you think, Oh, I'm putting on a brave face.Okay fine. But after like age seven, they can tell. Right. And then he spent 20 years being like, I'm faking it. It's like, no, your kids are like, yeah, my dad, you know, he doesn't really take care of himself. You know, he's always stressed out. We think we're putting on a brave face and it's just so obvious cause you know, the cracks show, especially when they're sitting around at the dinner table and you blow up because they mentioned they didn't finish their project and before they finish their sentence telling you that they got an extra week for it, you start talking about how they didn't get their work done, dammit. You know, and like they're just hold up dad, we got an extension. Oh, you know, it's like that kind of thing. The cracks start to show, or when we massively overreact to something that they've done and they realize that that isn't normal.Or they see other people acting normal or they're just like, why is this the case with my dad? Oh, you know, mom says it's something from work. Like kids are smart. It's, there's, someone told me, uh, you have to be really careful when you have guns in the house, right? Because kids will get their hands on it and the retort is always, no, I have a gun safe. And it's, did you know the combination to any of your parents' stuff when you were a kid and the answers yeah. By age 11, 13, 15 years old. So the key isn't, don't let the kids have the combination that against safe. It's, by the time they're obviously going to have figured out what that is. They know how to use a gun safely. Right. That's the, that's how you keep them safe. Not, not by telling them, not by diluting yourself that they have no idea how to get in there. Cause you the same fricking safe code as you do on your iPhone. So when they candy crush, you're telling them the code, right? Like they, they're onto you buddy. You know,I knew all my dad's stuff was, I'm, yeah. At a very young age. Let me ask you a question. What have been a couple of your favorite episodes this year that you've done? I mean there's, we're closing out 2019 kind of related to any of this stuff. What do you, what have you taken away from your experiences this year in all the shows that you've done?Yeah, I've done some really interesting ones in the past year especially. There's one with Jack Barsky who was a undercover KGB spy who came to America at posing as an American and he later decided that he loved America so much he was just going to stay here. And he, he ended up never getting caught up until recently actually, well after the Soviet union had fallen. And so that's a really interesting story. It just kind of shows that if you ever feel like, Oh man, this country has gone to hell in a hand basket. You know, it's nice to see somebody from the outside who's essentially one of our sworn enemies, you know, coming in and going, actually this place is great for all these different reasons that I think a lot of people don't think about every day. Um, we had Admiral James DaVita's come on and talk about character that's a, he's an interesting guy because of course he's that, he was the NATO Supreme allied commander.So that's kind of a big deal to have somebody come on and talk about that sort of stuff from straight from the horse's mouth, you know, had a lot of opportunity to do bad things and, and didn't, and uh, man, we had a guy from catch me if you can, uh, the inspiration from cashmere, if you can, that movie with Leonardo DiCaprio. We had a Frank Abignail come on and discuss the psychology behind some of the, the cons and the imposter stuff that he was doing. And so the shows run a wide gamut. Even recently we had general Robert Spalding about how China is essentially looking to overtake America with technology, but also the spy, where that's going in some of the, and how the Chinese communist party really does have it out for us. And it's very well documented. It's not a secret. We're kind of the only ones that are sleeping on.So we've done a lot of really great shows that show that both things are both going in the right direction but also need to be maintained, right? Like we need to pay attention to the direction that we take our society and our country and ourselves. Because all of those things are integral to maintaining democracy. Like we can't just work on self-development, but we also can't just be paranoid about everything around it. It's like we really have to work on the whole picture. That's really, really crucial to do. So, eh, don't we risk our, our whole, our whole way of being.Yeah, I'm mad and I think that's what I really enjoy about your show. You know? And again, part of the, my mission, I feel like bring people into my world. You know, they may not, they may not listen to Jordan harbinger. They may not know you exist. Uh, cause it's kinda not in their bandwidth being able to bring resources and tools to the table for the men and women out there that are doing their jobs every day. You know, you've got some phenomenal stuff out there that I know would make a difference in their life.Well, thank you very much. Yeah, I appreciate it. I'd love that people are listening to podcasts more now and if they're interested in this and maybe they'll be interested in the Jordan harbinger show and I'm on social media at Jordan harbinger on Twitter, Instagram, et cetera. So I'd love to hear from everybody. Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, thanks for having me on, man. I appreciate the opportunity. It's a lot of fun and talking with you is always fun.Hey man. Yeah, we just need to hang out more often and clearly now. I owe you a nice dinner and I'm going to try to be in San Diego again while you're there, but, and I'll make sure that all the links are up on the show notes. Uh, that, uh, all the links to your a one year podcast, but then, uh, Jordan harbinger.com, uh, your links to Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, all the good stuff. Uh, and I know that you're, uh, I think sometimes we feel like people are untouchable or unreachable in the world. You know what I mean? And I want my listeners to know that I know you're a pretty responsive guy and you know, you offer a lot and you're really committed to, uh, bring in a conversation to the table in a variety of ways that helps solve problems everyday for people, you know, kind of the every day. That's what I really appreciate about what you do.Well, thank you very much man. I appreciate the opportunity to talk to everybody and like I said, it's always fun to chat, so don't be a stranger.Hey brother, I really appreciate you joining us today. All right,that wraps up our show and matter of fact, the last show of 2019, happy new year again, Jordan harbinger. Brother. Thank you for giving us your time coming on this show. Uh, educating me and us giving us your thoughts and your insights and really a summary of everything that you've been able to accomplish over this last year. I appreciate it so, so much. I hope everybody had a great 2019 or at least you're still here. You asked me 20 that year. 15 was a pretty much a shit show in a lot of ways, but a lot of great things came out of it and I'm looking forward to an entire new year to really blow this thing up. So a couple of little things. One, we're going to continue with the Tuesday, Thursday podcast episodes starting in 2020 for the month of January. We're going to be dealing with the operational pillar.Number two, mental acuity has some great guests lined up throughout the month. Really some phenomenal episodes, some great tools and lessons and things to learn and practical application. Please do me a favor, keep sending me your notes, your feedback, your thoughts on what we're doing and how we're doing it and if it's working for you or not. The last big thing is I need your support and keeping this show up and running, keeping things moving and giving back to you. A lot of you have asked for more, for more depth, for training, for etc. And we've got to figure out how to do that. So I put together your a hundred day operational challenge. It's available at mindsetradio.com or you can go to mindsetradio.com/opyourlife. That's Opie your life. It's a go nation basis because this podcast is a part of the operation mindset foundation. So there's some options to do that. And if for right now, for some reason you want to take on the program and you just can't swing that donation, send me an email and we'll talk about it.I'm really looking forward to bringing people into that program. We're going to begin January 15th as a group and after that you'll be able to sign up any point in time and it'll run for you and not a problem. So that'll be up in live starting January 15th make sure you get in, register early so that we can know who's coming in. Get some things set up. It's going to be a lot of fun. It's going to be a freaking ball Buster, but I promise you at the end of the a hundred days there is gold at the end of that rainbow. So I look forward to you joining me. Thanks for listening. As always, do me a favor, share this podcast out. Share it with those your work, those you love, those you like and hell. Even though she can't stand, maybe they'll shift some contacts for them.So thanks for giving me a great year, your time, your attention, your listening and your feedback. I greatly appreciate it. Thanks to all the sponsors and stepped out this year and really supported us. Roofers, Elliot Rose at the prime mind app, chief Miller apparel and all the others that just showed support across the board. I greatly appreciate it. I'm looking forward to having the conversation in the new year with you. Bring us some new guests, new tools, new techniques, and some real practical application routes from stop again, don't forget to swing by out mindset.com check out the foundation in 2020 we're going to be out on the road quite a bit, teaching a lot of the programming that's out there. So if you want to bring something to your department, pop in, fill out the grant app, and let's get this. I already started, so it's all there and available for you. Let's really elevate the conversation of how we perform at the top of our game, mentally, physically, and emotionally in all aspects of our life for 2020 that's the mission. I hope you'll join me for it. That's it. Have a great safe new year and we will talk to you soon. 

Complacency and Deception Today – Tom Donnan pt 2 (https://kcrpodcast.com/captivate-podcast/episode-456-one-door-us-tom-donnan-pt-1/donnan-tom/) It is no secret that the Founding Fathers of this nation were Christian through and through. There have been reports lately that try to disprove that. But if you look at the personal letters they wrote (which have survived) and the public letters and speeches they wrote – they are filled with scripture references! Not scripture references like you hear some people today quote. You know, when they try to quote the Bible to make a point. They are attempting to “wow” you that they know a scripture or two, so you should vote for them. No, our Founders knew the Bible better than any Masters of Theology professor today! Remember, this was before radio and tv. So many of them would spend the early mornings and the late evenings reading the Bible! Some made a habit of reading the Bible completely through, three or four times in one year! They KNEW the scriptures! They would lace scriptural references throughout their writings, in examples and just plain talk. Some speeches contained as much as 75% scripture references! You never see any politician do that today! But they did not have to say, “As the Bible says in “such and such” scripture…” No. The people of that day knew the Bible’s also! So when these leaders would simply talk and reference the scripture in their messages, the people knew what they were talking about! Well, it’s not like that today. Even life long church members do not know how to find scripture in the Bible anymore! That is why almost all the churches post the scriptures on the big screen in the sanctuary! You rarely hear a preacher today say, “Turn in your Bibles to such and such and read with me…” Because the people are to Biblical illiterate to understand what that means! But, these are all signs of the end times as detailed in the Bible. The Bible is very clear about the “falling away” that will take place today…I mean in the last days…which we are in TODAY. To help us talk about this situation and to offer the ONLY solution to this problem, is our good friend, Tom Donnan. Now, if you have been listening to us in our past interviews, you know as well as I do, that we have no clue where the Lord is going to lead this conversation! Praise God! We just kind of “flow with the Spirit” when Tom is here! Amen! But one of the main cultural changes that has happened is the liberal progressives want to keep Christianity “boxed up” within the confines of the church. Right? There have been pockets of the “manifestation of God” in various places around this nation. Most denominational churches just brush it off as emotionalism and other such things. But I know I’ve been in a few services while traveling around where the presence of God was so thick, it was like a heavy fog in the room. But it wasn’t fog or smoke or anything like that. And to this day, I’ve never experienced anything like that in almost 20 year now. Do you know what I’m talking about? In the service I’m talking about, there were people healed. There were many that went rushing to the platform to receive Jesus – even without an altar call. Have you experienced or heard of anything like that? And there are pastors that have never, ever experienced the presence of God like that! You have a couple of examples where you have had a few pastors experience these things. Would you share those with our listeners? Folks, you know what Tom and I are talking about is true. It has to be true. It’s in the Bible. You may not understand it. You may not WANT to believe it. But that does not change facts! For example, you may not have thought you were driving 70 mph in a 45 mph zone. But when the police officer pulls you over and hands you the citation, you still may not believe it. So, you go to court. You tell the judge you do not believe it. The judge then asks...

All right. Welcome back to mindset radio. I'm your host Jeff Banman. Today I'm sitting in route force training headquarters across from a man, this good looking dude, Colby. Now, uh, I've gotten to know Colby now, whatever, like last six months on and off and then really a whole lot more since we've relocated here to the Denver area and you know, so this month what we're dealing with and what we're really focusing on is emotional stability and then the gateways to that and then kind of the features and functions, if you will, around that right from leadership to personal stuff. And I stopped by and asked Colby day, I said, listen, I know like Colby is super into breathwork super and a lot of stuff. Absolutely radical human being, but I know he's working on this whole breathwork package right this second. And I had this thought of thinking, wow, okay, this is breathwork to me.And you've heard me talk about this several times. It's really the gateway to recovery and the recovery is the gateway to stability and to emotional stability in a lot of ways. I'm not just kind of clearing the mind, but really regulating the system. And if you'll listen to last Thursday's episode when we went through all the traits and trends of emotional intelligence, you know, right. Self-regulation is a big component to that. And so Colby dude, thanks for hanging out with me today. My pleasure. Thank you so much. Um, I tuned in and listened to Phillip's episode. That was like I were talking before the show here. Um, for you guys tuning in, if you haven't touched on that, um, I think probably the best episode you've done, um, of the five or six I've listened to, but absolute pleasure, man. And having you here at brute-force HQ in Denver, seeing you relocate the family, grow this business, and still be a fantastic leader.I'm just humbled to be on the podcast, man. Dude, I'm trying, man. It's a, um, you know, I need some breath work. Yeah, well it is. I mean, and I think that's the list. And those were the comments we get. I think the, the, that, that thing I wanted to create in this podcast was that this was a real no-bullshit conversation, not about selling things or this or that, but bringing people to this community that they may not be exposed to kind of an informal course of their lives. And then techniques and aspects and learnings and the things that go into one, why do I do what I do? But then primarily how do I stay operational and in my world, operational is the ability to deal with everything I deal with and come home and actually have a complete life. Right? And you know, we talk about it for our worlds, it's a 24, seven gig.It's an all the time deal. It's not go to the office, punch a clock, go to the gym, go home, have dinner. I mean, it's, if I'm a firefighter, I'm, I'm on 24, seven mentally, physically, emotionally. I'm kind of on police officers. Same thing that service members clearly, right? This is kind of a, uh, a no stop environment. And so, you know, I know from my own work and the things I've done, you know, the gateway to regulation internally, right? Central nervous system, regulation, all those things. That's breath work. And then it's the chain of events. If I can regulate my, my central nervous system, now I'm starting to actually, then I can deal with my emotional state. And once I deal with my emotions, then I can deal with my, yeah. A,you know, a high negative energy, anxiety, stress, fear, uh, fear is probably a big one, especially in this community. Oh yeah. Um, if you're in that state and you're in that place of mind, your emotion is like, you know, running the show, right? You're not thinking logically, you're not thinking logically. And so breathwork, at least what I've found, and there's, there's, you know, when you think of breath work, first of all, let me just preface this entire conversation. Um, in doing my research, I uncovered, I mean, literally dozens of definitions of math work. So here's mine. Breathwork is a structured daily practice with the, uh, intention of influencing mechanics. So talking about actual anatomy, how we breathe physiology, how our body exchanges OTU and CO2 and state, our frame of mind. And so breath work is simply, at least in my context for the context of what I teach a structured daily practice with the intention of influencing those three areas.I love that. And so you can go down like the spiritual rabbit hole and then phase two, you know, there's some different styles out there. Well then we know some people that this is like the non woo woo stuff. It's the fucking works like hands down, especially in populations with a chronic stress, chronic ongoing, never ending and seeing some of the shit that you guys see. I've got a good buddy. Um, I do jujitsu with Dave. He's a Westminster PD and um, you know, he was my, probably one of my best friends in high school. Happy go lucky dude. I'm always the life of the party. And uh, we lost touch for a few years and recently caught up with him and we're talking about like, what's it like being a cop? I can't relate. I'm a personal trainer. I'm a coach. I help people in the gym.And he's like, man, it's cool. You know, it's, you know, you ever watch cops. It's kind of like that. I'm like, okay, but really what's it like? Like what's some of the hard shit? And he shared some stories that, um, that were heavy, you know, and it's like, and he realized pretty quickly the importance of like managing his emotional state, not just numbing blocking out, but also like processing and working through some of those things. And so breath work really is a fantastic way to be able to regulate your state. I mean, in a matter of seconds. Totally potent thing. Yep.Yeah. I mean, I think it's been interesting, you know, out of the, when you look at, you know, tomorrow primary courses that I've taught forever and then, you know, some of flowed out of there, but it's the operation mindset side. And then the, of course, the art of recovery and what I discovered years ago was understanding that being existing in a state of being recoverable was the gateway to really performing in any situation, any circumstance. Right. My ability to inaction, settle and move, opens up, my cognitive aperture opens up, my awareness, opens up my decision making capability. Right. So, you know, to me, recovery isn't like end of the day. Now I got to check out, sit back and recover from this 12 hour, 24 hour, 48 hour shift I just did through recovery is like an all the time constant deal. And the cool thing I love about breathwork is it's always available and always with you once you learn a couple of simple strategy yep.And have the awareness that you're like, Oh shit. I'm like having that thing again. Totally. I feel the anxiety. Some people have the feeling like a physical sensation in the throat, in the stomach, heaviness in the chest and shortness of breath. Yep. Totally. Like the one, um, having the awareness that you're actually having, you know, you need, uh, you need to shift, need to shift, right. Upregulate downregulate whatever it looks like. Man, it's just so potent and so powerful. And it's funny, I was on, um, um, social media that, or Dana saw a good friend of mine and he was doing a, some silly CrossFit workouts, a thousand step-ups for time. He's a firefighter because he had his full fire gear on oxygen tank, everything. And he's not actually, oxygen is not normal. They're just normal. Like, Oh, what's the difference? Well, I mean you wouldn't let a breeze straight.Okay. All right. So it is the same. It's the same. It just gone through compressed fucking, sorry. Good to make that correction. What's it called? It's just air and air tank. Air pack. Right. So he's wearing his air pack one day or, and he's got his heart rate, you know, jacked up through the roof. Just doing this for awhile. And I'm like, his name's Matt, Matt Chan. I'm like, man, what's like, what's up with this? You know, what are you doing? And he's just getting ready specificity for, I mean, do this, what firefighters do, you guys are carrying around a bunch of heavy shit. It's like hot as fuck. Right? And one of the things that he has been implementing is um, a strategy just called nasal breathing. Super simple, just breathing in and out through the nose. And so what we're finding is when you can shift out of, um, mouth breathing, that should be a gear reserve for extremely high output.So I'm talking like full on sprint assault bike, you know, last 30 seconds of effort when your body really, you just need to open up the Vince so to speak and flooded with oxygen. You can only sustain that 30 seconds a minute. Interesting. So talking about breath work, one of the, I guess unintended benefits without really think about it is learning this gear system and your output, you can regulate your energy expenditure through your breathing. The point I share the story of Matt doing this is he's like, you know, I was just experimenting doing nasal breathing only this entire time. He had to pull his pace back considerably. However, the rate of perceived exertion is much lower, the recovery is much quicker and we can dive into nasal breathing and stuff like that later. But it's a very simple strategy right on the fly. If you ever find yourself in a stressful interaction[inaudible]just take a breath in and out through the nose. Um, the longer the exhale, the exhale rather should be twice the length of an inhale. Okay.[inaudible]that slow pause not only gives your brain a minute to like catch up, right? Cause you're bringing your focus internally. But what you're actually doing with that extended exhale is you are switching on your parasympathetic nervous system, which you are. It's this, it's this constant balance. It's this constant game. You, you're looking at it on a graph. It's like I'm a concept oscillation of up and down, up and down, up and down. Stressor comes in. The recovery that needs to happen is just as equal. And so when we can take that nasal breath real slow, two, three seconds in, um, for six seconds out, that just kind of puts us back to our baseline. You know, it's interesting because I did a interview with Andy Clark. She's out of Canada. Um, she's got an actual, uh, genetic disorder that triggers her central nervous system that dysregulates her and puts her in a high stress state.Her son has it. Yeah. So she had to figure out, I mean, she was a shit show basically a lot of her life. She still admits it and you know, and uh, and one of the things she said in her research is you understood especially like even doing nasal breathing and triggering and just focusing effort on the left nostril. Like it's the closest point to the bagel nerve. Yeah. Right. So it actually then stimulates the vagal nerve, which then begins to, you know, start to help regulate heart rate variability, opens up the fashion around the heart. You know what I mean? It starts to run that chain. So I, I'm sitting here going, yeah, duh. Oh, totally man. Like nasal breathing, man. It's just like, it's easy. It's easily accessible, right? It's just something that if we can just have the awareness, like I'm not talking about a 1% improvement, I'm not talking about like a little tweak.Like, I don't know. What's a small thing that guys can do better in their day to day life? Like a tiny little fix. I don't know. Now he put me on the spot. Now I've got to think of, so nasal breathing is like a 25 50% improvement. We're talking like in rates of perceived exertion or magnitude. Yeah. It's like, and it's such a simple thing, like it's mind blowing that more people are aware of this. And so that's one of the reasons I'm able to come in and teach this stuff here at the gym and teach with my clients. And the benefits are immediate, immediate, immediate. And so having this gear system where you can learn your pacing in your training, in live situations, you, what this means is you can, instead of going from zero to a hundred in a split second, like, sure, the thing can happen, whatever, but your reaction could be like zero to 50.You're calm, you're logical, you're precise as opposed to what the fuck is happening. Right? And so I'll watch, um, uh, active self protection. Have you ever heard of this YouTube channel? This guy breaks down. Um, uh, shooting engagements from closer to cameras. Um, and it's just so wild. It happens so fast, so fast. Right. I've never had happen. I've never experienced, I hope I never do and I'm grateful for those of you who, um, you know, are serving and helping. Um, but, and I like to think, man, if I was in this situation, what would I do? I don't know. I'd probably fucking run away. You know what I mean? Like, I'm not the one who has to go bust in the door and get the bad guy. Right. You know what I mean? Yeah. And so just breathwork as a whole, as a way to control your state. Right. Big picture. Like, I can't relate to this, but like getting geared up for a fucking squat call these guys do it. Yeah.Dozens and dozens. I mean, if you think about it, right? I mean, we exist in this world where we're, we're hanging out, right where we are generally, there's two conditions. Yeah. There's duly Joan, are you like, yeah, I mean, I think so. While you're, you know, so let's talk about it from the fire service or from the law enforcement perspective. You know, our day you show up, you're doing your shift, you do your checks, you do whatever. Maybe you're doing training, maybe you're doing PT, you're doing whatever. You might be having lunch. I mean, you might be having breakfast, you might be sitting around smoking and joking. You might just be chilling out and you're laughing at something. And then out of nowhere, eh, man, you know, everybody responded for a house fire, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And so you have an instant rise, right? You have an instant chemical dump reaction body begins to move into action. You move towards the firetruck quickly. You know what I mean? You used to run and haul ass and knock each other down and beat the shit out of each other. But now I think there it's still may happen, you know? And then you get an a, you got to get your gear on. You're getting set up. You got to go through everything. But knowing that it's live. Yeah. Versus a drill. Well, yeah. And then you're in it and then it's real deal. And then you know, you've got streams of communication coming in. Like you an officer going from grabbing a cup of coffee in the morning cause he finally had a break between all the kind of mundane, you know, go check the welfare somebody or go settle somebody down.Call to you know, armed robbery, suspect with a gun, active shooting in a school, shots fired officer down. Like all the like man, life change on a dime. And you know what I've always tried to say is I need the tools to put myself into condition. I need to be and for this moment and the next right. And to me this is one of these key things, but I want to drill a point before we kind of get into a technique and a few other things. The gateway to the gateway is recognition, right? It is a level of awareness that says my body, I'm going for the ride. So tightening the chest, difficulty breathing, you know, fitness, stomach, right? Headache, flushing, you know there's, you have to find what your indicator is. And what I found over life is, man, it's different for you as it is for me is everybody else.You can't say this is the indicator. You have to be aware and not to see that I'm dysregulated, that I'm coming out of pocket. He used to tell people all the time, you know, if you go to the engine getting a firetruck, get your gear on and your struggle, like buckle your seatbelt or put your air pack on. Like if you're fumbling with that. Yeah, exactly. You're fumbling with that. You're out of the zone. You're creeping out of that zone because that is something you do regularly without thinking. So autonomic response. Now you've done it a million at times in your life, you should not have any difficulty doing that. And if you do that should be at like something, a glaring indicator that your, something's in there that you're dysregulated, that you need to regulate. And so that's why I want to, I want to make sure that we're, we're attacking that as step one. It's like self regulation and you know, you know it, whoever you are, you know when you're dysregulated. And like, listen, there's no judgment. No, don't judge yourself. No.That turns into this downward spiral. Literally just there it is, but it's like, here's the thing, man. Society at large, we do a really good job of making heroes out of the service, out of firefighters, out of police and for good reason. What they do are heroic acts. I listened to your episode where you talked about, please don't call me here. No, yeah, but here's the deal. You're human. You have these same psychological things, the same physiological response, same emotional traits and no matter how much training, like you cannot beat the stress response out of a person. You can inoculate a person to handle more and more and more. However, the, you know that's going to come on the tail end too. Like there's a equal and opposite reaction. I had somebody tell me once out of a class they, they pulled me aside and they're like, you know, I don't, I don't have a fight or flight response. I justsaid point gun to his head right away. Okay, all right, let's talk. And you know what I mean? Like, but some people, you know, they, they get numb to things over time or they don't think they have sick, but it's there, it is always there. Yeah, totally. So I didn't mean to interrupt you. I don't want to just like know, have the awareness. Yeah. Right. No. That like, Oh shit. Okay. Like I, this is a moment, this is like one of those pivot points inside of me to be on a peak now action, right. Awareness and now that's got to lead to it. Of course. Ultimately having that awareness is going to allow you to instantly shift into like go mode. Like okay, yeah, cool. I know how to do this. Confident. It's called a high positive. Right. As opposed to like a high negative anxiety, fear, anger.It's like flow, focus, energy, boom. Yeah, totally man. So all right, so let's, let's kind of talk through then some of the like the immediate techniques, you know, um, I'm going to an incident or you know, I'm walking into a village, right. I'm trying to like, like there's a moment where I have an opportunity even in you know, pre incident, pre action, pre, you know, fireground pre call, you know, pre communication, pre, you know, most times hopefully, you know, maybe pre gunfight unless I walked into an ambush and then I'm just kinda fucked. Um, you know, but then it's on. Uh, but there's, there's, there's these subtle moments that give me an opportunity to regulate, right? So if I'm responding to an incident, that response is an opportunity to regulate before I show up. So what are, you know, so nasal breathing, I, I like, I like it and you know, what you basically said was, you know, two, three seconds in and then basically double out just a long extended exhale, long extended exhale.Yeah. It's going to be very beneficial to downshift to downregulate it to like bring you back to base. Right. Um, something important to note too, that like with mechanics and breathing, it's a skill. It sounds so silly. I know every time I say this I'm like, ah, breathing. It's a scale. I sounds so fucking potential, dude. It's like, it's like seeing your front side post. You have to train the system to do that. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. You don't have to, there, there is not a, that has to be, you have to be disciplined. You have to be on it, you have to be a little more, you know, over focused at first before it becomes a natural course of action. So yeah. So the reason this is important is, so we've got our, our autonomic nervous system, which by and large is unconscious. It's our respiration, our heartbreak, our digestion, all these different things. And we really can't control however. So a stressor comes in, something happens, we see it or we hear it or we feel it through our senses. Right. And that's our brain it.So depending on the intensity of the trigger and our perception of it. Yeah. There's some really cool research that shows not only cause what might stress you out might make me twice as freaked out. Totally. Right. I ain't walked into a part of building. Sorry. That's, that's my jam, bro. So how you perceive this stressor. And I actually think that's where most of the adaptation happens in this, these fields is like they are, they are learning to perceive these in a way that kind of down-regulates the stress response. So there's that psychological component. So then what happens is, uh, the sympathetic nervous system just goes, boom, activates and we need it. That's what keeps us alive. That's what gives us energy to fight, to survive, to run away, to do whatever. Breathwork allows us to shift between those two on demand. We can upregulate like, and that's what one of the thing that's really important.Um, I'll use with some of my clients who suffer from anxiety. Um, bear with me here on this analogy, but for their entire life, they're like, man, this whole like this whole breathing thing isn't really working. I try to calm down and I just can't calm down. I'm like, have you ever tried to like ramp up? Have you ever tried to like just embrace it and go with the feeling? And they're like, no, sure shit. We try it. They're like, dude, this is fucking life changing. My anxiety gone. So what they were doing was fighting this response and trying to like downplay it when really it's just like, nah, just let it go. And then it was trying to tell them other things. So in this context, if I'm riding in that fire truck or in the police car, whatever, I'm trying to remain calm.I'm trying to read. Cool. But I'm also like, I could start upregulating a little bit like, all right, I need to be alert, I need to be ready to go. So when we're talking about breathing, we're talking about mechanics. Number one, it's a skill. It's something that you should practice daily. I would suggest part of your morning routine. Um, you know, when you can, and honestly, honestly, it doesn't matter when I've just had the best results with my clients, having them do it in the morning, higher adherence, a better energy for the day. It's usually a calm time where you're not interrupted by kids, sculptors, family, whatever. So morning seems to be the best. Uh, the morning protocol that I like to take people through, um, is a, uh, I'll explain the, the setup. It's a one, one to one cadence, right? Which each of those numbers refers to the inhale hold.Exhale, hold one, one to one. Now in order to individualize those numbers, you're going to want to do something called the CO2 tolerance test. There's some really cool research that's showing that our level of CO2 tolerance, the more tolerant we are to CO2, the less emotionally reactive we are. So bear with me for a like this is really fucking cool. I'm dr Andrew Huberman, university of Stanford is doing some studies on this right now. What he's showing is the less sensitive you are, um, to CO2. So you have to build up is what happens when we're our metabolism's running and we're our breath. Um, the less sensitive we are to that, the, sorry, the more sensitive we are to that, the more reactive we are emotionally interesting. So anxiety. Yeah, a very strong stress response. Um, uh, getting emotionally triggered by other people. All of this is actually tied to that.You should heard a conversation before this. Exactly. Um, all of this is actually tied to our level of CO2 tolerance breath. We're, here's where this gets really fucking cool, especially for this industry. So when you invited me on and I was like, fuck yeah, this is so cool. When you can expand your tolerance to CO2, your perception of stressors, your reaction, and your, and this is actually measurable data. The HRV, it goes down, your reactivity goes lower, you become an inoculated distress. Interesting. Through breath work, it's out. It's very potent. So I shared that to say like, this shit is very, very valuable and it's not some hippy dippy new world thing like [inaudible]not necessarily the extreme when Wim Hoff, you know, go dump yourself in one, one, one method. Yeah. I mean I, you know, breathwork, that's all I, you know, in a generic way. Cause I get questions all the time, so I'm glad we're doing this. Uh, cause I always look at somebody like one, it's very individualized. The, your, the way you regulate in your breath work, how long you breathe, how far, you know, all that stuff can be trained, but you've got to find your individual flow with it. You know? And breathwork is kinda like, you know, assholes. Everybody's got one. And you know, some of them suck. Uh, you know, but it's, you know, there's a lot out there, so, okay. So when we're talking about like, let's do a morning setup, let's talk two things real quick too, you know, so let's talk about a morning set up and what that looks like. And I wanna reiterate some of what you just said and then like what, what are the tools I could use, you know, cause right now somebody could be listening to this and literally as soon as we're done,go to be going putting it in action. Yeah. Right. And being like, okay, those guys are full of shit. Or Holy cow, that really work. I try this. Yeah, totally. Yeah. So that's what I love about this show because these are things, I mean, seriously, somebody who's going to use this in the next, it's 10 hours. Yeah, absolutely. And listen, if you do, I want to hear about this. You can find me on my website. [inaudible] dot com Jeff will have a LinkedIn and it, he's not going to lean on that. Colby neff.com in case you don't always get it. But so morning, morning, morning set up. Real simple. I would suggest you start with at least five minutes. Okay? Right? Five minutes. Find a comfortable, safe environment, a place where you can close your eyes and not feel like somebody's watching you. There's like this psychological emotional thing where you don't want to be judged first time you do it right.Find a safe space, okay, hate that word. But find a safe space, right where you can be comfortable. You can do it sitting down, you can do it lying down. Um, I don't suggest doing a standing up. You can't if you want to, but find a comfortable spot. And so the first thing we're going to do is actually test your CO2 tolerance. There's for breaths in the CO2 tolerance test. Um, so we're going to do is go ahead and close the mouth and you can do this right now as we're doing this, you're driving, maybe stop cause you hit a timer, but it's real simple. You're going to take a kind of two or three nasal breaths in, in and out at your normal pace. On the fourth breath, you're going to inhale fully through the nose. So maximum inhale through the nose, fill the lungs as full as you can.You're going to start your stopwatch and you are going to exhale as slowly as you can. Cool. That's your CO2 tolerance test. If you score a 20 seconds or lower, you really need this very bad. That's a very low score. It indicates poor pulmonary capacity and indicates poor aerobic fitness and it indicates high emotional reactivity. Um, about 20 to 30 seconds is average for most if you can score upwards of like a 50 to 62nd that indicates like advanced or um, above average levels of aerobic fitness, pulmonary capacity and reactivity to stress. Some guys can get upwards to 90 seconds, but those guys, when we're talking about elite level free divers who literally train this hours a day, every day. So in this context, I would say a really good benchmark is to shoot for 60 seconds, right? 62nd test. And um, it sounds silly. It's like, yeah, I could, I can do that until you try it and you're like, Oh fuck, I have 15 cents.What's around? Let me tell you, there's a lot of shit in this community that's like, Oh, I could do that. And then we try it and then we're like, yeah, okay, maybe I can't do that. Totally. And so with the morning routine, you're just gonna want to do, you're going to want to find some protocol. It doesn't matter what it is. I'll give you a couple today. It doesn't matter what it is, but something that's going to leave you feeling what you want it to feel, which is if you want to feel awake, you want to feel focused. There's, you can find a protocol that will do that for you. Okay. What usually works most times in my experience is a one one to one. So we're going to extend this out. It'd be like a five second inhale, five second hold ten second exhale, five second hold.Okay. And you do that for 10 to 15 cycles? Minimum. Okay. Have to really start to drive some of the adaptation. So that would be like a typical morning breathing session. Um, one of my personal favorites is, um, when you're switching tasks, this is what I did before coming in. It's just something when you want to like put some closure to this previous thing and also kind of perk up and get ready for your next activity, whatever that is. Um, excuse me. That would be transitions. Transition moments of recovery you talked about. Oh yeah. Good times will transitions, man. This is my personal favorite task switching and transitions. Nope, this is my personal favorite is where we fail miserably. Really? Oh yeah, yeah. Transitions are huge man. And if you have the awareness, they're everywhere, everywhere, all day, all the time. That protocol is real simple.It's a one to one and there is no exhale hold. So it's like three rounds of like seven in the 14. Hold seven out. You do that three times and then you're going to go 15 really deep aggressive breaths in through the mouth or through the nose. If you want to get a really upregulating effect all through the mouth, like you'll feel the Aussie, it will feel very different. If you just go through the notes, it's going to be a pretty mild effect. Okay. Everybody's different. Everybody's, this is what I feel. But, and then after those 15 it's called super ventilation[inaudible]big, deep breaths like that. After those 15 you're going to exhale, hold as long as you can. Hmm. 30 45 seconds. So do that two times. Do that. Two times. Your brain is just like fucking on fire. You feel great, interesting task switch. So that's how you kind of work in the morning routine. Um, that transition, man, it takes, it takes five minutes, right? We're talking about 10 minutes of your day with like unlimited upset. Yeah. So what is the, what's a good,you know, what's a good kind of like, I like to call inaction or in flow technique, right? So if I'm driving a fire truck or I'm the engine officer and firing it back or on the law enforcement officer, you know, screaming down the road and you know, I'm managing a lot, right? Managing traffic, I'm receiving information, I'm trying to decipher stuff I'm having to communicate out. Do not sound like an ass on the radio. And when I do that, um, how could I leverage some of this stuff kind of in those moments. You know, I like the, I really can see kind of some of the nasal breathwork. Does it, should I just start that?Yeah. Just man, it's going to come from awareness and training. Yeah. Right. Speaking of transitions, the way that I teach my clients to make breath work or like better mechanics, part of their day is to when you, when you transition from office to office, car to, um, headquarters, whatever, home to work, use that time to nasal breathe and just be aware of it. Like, okay, I'm going to, I'm transitioning and walking from the parking lot into the store. I'm leaving the restaurant and going back to my car. Take that time. And just nasal breathe. Yeah. That's like layer one, layer two. Once you feel comfortable with that would be like, okay, as you're warming up for your workout, nasal breathe. Yeah. Try that and then tell me it's not hard. I'd try that. Doing like a nasal breathing only conditioning session would be like the next level full on nasal breathing. Right? And then you're really gonna find your gears. You're going to have these moments of panic where you're like, I actually don't have enough oxygen right now. And then you got to slow down your respiration and you're taking control of your physiology in that moment. So the lowest hanging fruit man is like, just like make nasal breathing kind of. You don't have to do it all day, every day, but make it your norm. Especially in stressful situations.Yeah. You know, I started to do that and when we talked about, uh, with Andy, I'm going to reference back because this is relevant, right? So a different side of it when she talked about, you know, the fact that we don't, you know, we exercise our sympathetic response constantly in this world, right? We're constantly heightened and you know, in that place and we're not exercising the rest and digest or not exercising. We're not teaching the body to regulate. We're teaching the body stressed to be stressed. So it's no wonder when we go home, we can't regulate when we walk through switch. Can't go there to the door or no, are you kidding me? That's a perfect opportunity. They're totally,we're what we're talking about. That really hit home for me because I'll have days like where I get inside and I'm just like still at work and like, I'm like not being a good dad. I'm not being a good husband when that way man breathing. Like if you could like park around the house or like somewhere you can park in your garage. Right. Just to chill out for a few minutes. Open up an app. I recommend. It's called breathe plus. Um, another one is called state S. T. a. T E breech plus is customizable. You can put in your own state is like their own defined protocols. They're both fantastic. Yep. You could just fire that up, right? Real simple. Three or four minutes. Do a little task, switch, transition, boom, leave work at home or sorry, just don't leave work at home, leave work at work, leave work at work and then come home and be engaged. And what you'll notice over a few exposures of doing this is like people are gonna notice other people are going to be like, something's changed. And here's the thing about it,right? It actually gives you an opportunity. I don't, I mean I have a hard time sometimes, you know, leave, leave, work at the office or leave work at the station or leave work where air or you know, cause cause we really can't, you know, but here's the difference. You're walking in with if you can regulate, you know, we just talked Thursday about emotional intelligence and I, you know, and I shared how, you know, my own, my own state, my own emotional state has such an impact on everyone around me. Like a vibe, shitty or I'm heavy. You're on whatever dude. You know, I mean, and it jacks Morgan up through the roof, you know what I mean? And then it [inaudible] to start. And then it just triggers this huge downfall. Whereas if I've had a tough day and I can transition and regulate, do the breath work, I come in in a different way and then I know she's willing to hear whatever is going. Like she'll know maybe I'm, I didn't have the best day or it was a tough incident or a tough call. It was something, she'll know that. But by me being regulated and not caring, all, you know, all of it in there and being dysregulated, she's actually willing then to be like, Hey, what's going on? How are you? You know, what's up?And then you're in a Headspace to where you're not feeling judged, not feeling like I'm doing something wrong or I'm all fucked up. Or you're like, you're in a head space where it's like, Hey, listen to me, it was shit today was today was bad. Yeah.You know, and I don't want to talk about it or I want to share it with you, but I'm at least able to communicate in a whole different context. Then, you know, stumbling through the door, upset, irritated, frustrated and carrying all this extra stuff. So man, I,I don't tell you man, I just had my second son, he's three months old and it's, I forgot the newborn stage. Like how this goes. I'm getting like you were just thinking I want 13 years. Yeah, you just did it again. I should have shot myself in the leg. Like all right. And I was like, so I still had like it's, it's fantastic and it's great. It's dude, there's momentsor like,like these things are triggered from my son crying and screaming that I don't know how to fix. I'm like contracture, I do diaper. I tried feeding you. I don't know what the fuck you want. There are these moments where like I have to regulate like yeah you have no I don't, I have a very angry response, which is like punch things and Declan has taught me so much about cause they're all thing, ours is a bundle of energy. Yeah. That's it. And that's all they feel is whatever your total and then it gets even worse. Right. They feel that energy. Oh yeah. Right. It's like then you're, and then you're spun out of the awareness of like, Whoa, I need a better solution. Like I can't just get pissed. This can't be my strategy because this is going to end up not good. Yeah. Everybody in my family. Yeah. Yeah. Cause then you're not any violate kind of the [inaudible]idea of creating safety for those around you. Right. And uh, you know, that's where I, I hate that, that over time emotions have been labeled the way they have been labeled. You know, especially in our world is like this negative pH. You can't have emotions. Oh man. Yeah. I always say, and I said it on Thursday, the only, you only accept a little emotion in our communities. Anger, anger. Really? Oh yeah, you can, you can't be happy too long. You can be a little cut up, but then, but then you're fucking like, I'm an outsider asking them, why can't be sad? You know? Because sadness is assigned as a sign of weakness. You can't be too happy because then you're not being serious, you know? But dude, you can be as pissed off as you want to be pissed off. You can be as angry as you want to be because that's what the, that's what the collective emotion is, is because everybody feels that because everybody's pissed off everybody's cause that's the expression of this sensation.They're experienced. They have an identify what that's, yeah, that's just the expression of it. Right. And, and it's gnarly. And so, you know, this is a, this is a different model of how we exist and um, and begin to see, Hey wait a minute. You know, I can be sad that that was actually sadness. Like how like that would be so hard to separate, like, I don't know man, like walking in and seeing a family murdered or like just seeing some heinous shits. Like how can you, like, I guess I understand why the reaction is the numbness. I get that. Yeah. It's just, it's fucked up that that's how the standard is, I guess. Yeah. And then, and then you got to go be pissed, you know, cause anger. And I will, I will ask you this as a trainer, because in my world, you know, even in the physicality of our world, even in the physical training of our world, the answer was always get angry at it.You all lift heavier, get angry, draw that anger. So hit it harder, go faster. You know? So you're embedded with anger. Stressful is the, is the emotional connection to a higher level of performance, which is fucked up. You know what I mean? This, those are backwards relationship dude. Yeah. But that's the way it's been. Like have you, you've, you felt like rage, you felt rage was like, I'm talking, seeing red, like just fucking mad. Yes. You cannot tell me that's the best way to show up. Right? But it is, that's what the thinking is. Well, and then the problem is then, then we're launched into shame and were launched into sadness and were launched into judgement. And then we're launched. And, uh, I'm not who I want to be. Uh, uh, am I even making a difference? And then, and then the question is, am I even worthy?Should I even be on this earth? You know, I mean it gets, dude, that's, that's what, that's what I want. That's the conversation. It's like this is where we are. And to me the problem is the communities want to want to pill it. You know, wanna want to go treat it through Medicaid, Medicaid, it, don't worry about it. We'll just medicate it or go drink more, you know, or whatever. And, and, and what we've missed is listen, know, what don't we need to teach you to do is regulate your systems. What I need to do is encourage you to be aware of what's happening in that moment and then give you the, the biological tools breathwork. It's a biological tool that then enhances your natural, listen, we're smart people. We can kind of find the answer. You notice as a coach, you don't have the answer.They do. You have to just unlock it. And so, you know, everybody gets it and is a technique to me. This is why I wanted you to come on this month because this is a gateway to this pillar of emotional stability, of emotional regulation of, you know what I like to call it, bringing calm to chaos. I can't stop the chaos and I can't control the chaos, but I sure as hell can be the one to show up to bring calm to the environment. Right. And, and then use that capacity. But I can't do that unless I have a tool that, that, that biologically regulates me. You know, the mind and body are,yeah. Cause I mean like people are gonna pick that up. Like if you have high anxious energy. Sure, yeah, yeah. I'm good. I'm good. I'm good. No, everything's good. No you're not. People can just look at your body language and know, you can see a leader who's calm, who's confident, who's collected. Hopefully you guys just thought of that person. Yeah, that's a great example, a great role model to have in your mind. But on the flip side, we can read body language very well. We can know when a person actually isn't calm and isn't regulated despite them saying, so dude, we're energetic beings. Absolutely. So that's where this conscious control of your autonomic nervous system comes into play. It's this really weird thing. It's, did I have this crazy thought, like we're born into these bodies and it, to me, it's like the greatest mystery in universe.It's like, okay, so how do we really do this stuff? How do I regulate all these parts and pieces and joints and thoughts, right? It's this unknown mystery that we're still fucking learning about. And it's crazy and I love it, man. I mean, this has been such a journey of such a discovery of things. So, uh, so breathwork man, like you're talking about, you're talking about using it to access, um, emotional stability. So one thing that makes me think of like, breathwork has been used for thousands and thousands of years. It's used in shamonic rituals. It's used in Indian tribes, like all these different things. But here in 2019, 2020, what does that mean? If someone were to be using that to get too emotional to get to an emotionally stable place, how do you see breathwork fitting in and allowing that? Is it changing state to get to a place where you can like, reflect and think on some hard stuff? Is it like being able to regulate your state and your emotions? I, you know, my personal opinion is there is, there's a whole, the whole,you know, breadth is the only biological function, physiological function we can control. It's the gateway, right? And, um, for years we spent a lot of world in any, on the aspects of psychology and thought that was the answer. And I'm a big believer that the answer really lies in our biological makeup, you know, in balancing the internal systems that then create access to what we need to see, uncover, unpack, deal with, talk about or whatever it is. And so, you know, to me, breathwork and there, you know, like there's a ton of options out there, but I watched it. I mean, I watch it on the range when we do the meditation shoots, right? The deep core. Uh, what do they tell you to do when you're shooting? What's the cue? I remember, I remember when I was learning how to shoot. I'm, and I'm a fucking rookie, but I remember something like, you're not, are you exhaling as you pull the trigger?Do you know this? Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, it definitely varies. So there's, there's the exhale, the pause, you know, the slight hold at a, at the bottom, half the breath or two thirds. But that varies depending upon weapon in style and who and everything else. Right? There's a lot of times to just make this connection. So already practicing breath work. Oh, totally. Oh yeah. If you're a shooter or a shooter, I mean most guys, most guys, no matter what, they're on the exhale. Yes. Right? And it is a release not only in breath, but of energy, right? I am settling myself because like I say, you know, shootings easy. All you ever have to do is press through that trigger without disturbing the front sites under any conditions imaginable. Right? It's that easy. That's all you have to do. Doesn't matter. Shit's blowing up or bullets are coming back at you.All you have to do is be able to press through that trigger and not disturb the front sights. That's it. That's the only thing, you know? Yeah. But that requires you to be stable and regulated in order to achieve that. And so, yeah, I mean, breathwork shows up. Listen, this community, you're not, you're not ignorant to breathwork. It's there. It's subtle. For years it's been slang or you know, an approach or this or that. And then over the last probably 10 years been inundated with all the techniques, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. And so that's why I asked you to come on the show, because I know if you've, if you taken on a technique, it's not bullshit, right? So I'm going to validate that I trust you and what you're giving to the audience is an actual tangible tool because there's some shit out there that like it'd be great if I'm climbing Mount Everest and cool and you know, sounds great, but it's unobtainable.Right. And that's where I look at it. You know, I, I believe that the, the breathwork, whatever it looks like for you, in order to be successful with it, you have to have a level of awareness. If I create a level of awareness in you as to your state, then I've got access to do all kinds of things, right? So if I'm aware that I need to breathe, okay, then I can be aware of what my sensation is, what emotions that triggering, what thoughts that's bringing up and then what courses of actions I'm most likely to take at this point in time. So it's a gateway, right? It's a, it's a gateway drug. I did say it's an opportunity. That's why it's important to me because we're unfortunately we're focusing on the end results of not doing breath work, of not regulating, of not being aware, which you know, then starts this downfall chain of events up.Not good, not good, not fucking good. And to know, no today. I don't know Terry, I don't know. It's 27 maybe. Yeah, it is. And it's grown across fire service and law enforcement unity. It really is. I mean it is a, it is a serious issue. This is an outsider. What a guys on the inside, people on the inside, what are they saying? Think about that. What's like the, what's like the consensus it berries. There isn't one because you've got, you still have a large community that ignores it, you know, there's that largely kind of what happens that bad. Yeah. And then you, and then you just have a, you don't have a safe space to say it. I mean, I didn't say it for years, but you were feeling it dude. I've had thoughts of suicide in my head for, since I was a kid and then enhanced by everything else I've done.I felt like I told Phil, you know, I, I have felt like a failure in one aspect or another of my life virtually every day. Yeah. I mean, and then it, then that leads to why do I even need to be here and what is my purpose and is it even worth it? Am I causing more harm by being here than not? I mean, dude, it's a, that's why I talk about, you know, intervention versus prevention. All we do is intervention. If the thought has come into your head, you, there's, there needs to be an intervention, not just the act. That's the current model. That's what you're saying. No, that's the current model is where you're going to pretend it doesn't exist and then teach you some prevention measure and have some person who has no correlation to your world. It doesn't make sense of this weird context because then, okay, so I've gone through this preventative training, which you can't, this is so crazy, dude.Hey guys, don't think it was [inaudible]. Yeah, yeah, you can't, I mean like what, that doesn't make any sense. Well and then call the person who's not going to understand what your life is about and then deal with, it's like one wife facilitated a conversation between ops, medical services, all the sites at the agency and some of the operators. And we had them all in a room and collected when we were teaching a program and they were there. And you know, the biggest thing that came out was they had the opportunity to go, we're not here to take your guns away. We're actually here to keep you doing crazy shit around the world. You know? And my response was they, it's like garbage. If you don't take your garbage out, what's going to happen? And it's going to stink and be nasty and it's gonna fuck everything up.Yeah, you have to take the garbage out. But the problem is there's a big, there's a big gap and there's a big lack of trust in that community because there's a huge pool of people that don't know. You know, cause I always said, it's like if I go see somebody and actually said what, what was going on, you know, the psych would have PTSD by the time I left the room. Right? Right. So why would I even remotely share myself with you? Right. So it's a big challenge and, but I draw back, but I look back at it and there is a course of action to dealing with that. And it, it comes in self-regulation. It comes in opening of a pathway to be able to feel what you need to feel. Say what you need to say. Experience. We shouldn't do that first sentence. Feel what you need to feel big time. Like that's gotta be it. That's the hardest thing, right? Yeah. We don't want to feel those things. They're uncomfortable. They don't feel. And then there, and then if I let that over fold den, am I being weak? Right? Am I going to be incapable of then doing it again?Right. Am I going to be, uh, unable to handle the next thing?[inaudible] andI think it makes you more capable of due to does my asity infinitely larger. It's like a few of those feelings and have those experiences and learn from them. Yeah. I mean it's like after I did my work with Elliot Roe who was on, I was on season one. I asked him on a podcast afterwards when we did the, I had no therapy session and, and got rid of anger, got rid of this, release, this anger, this whole thing. Um, my first thought was Huck, I'd been a bad ass without all that shit. Like if I could go back 20 years and start over without anger, without that aggressive child embedded point of exactly what it is. Oh yeah. Three, seven, eight years we learn. Oh yeah. Early, early like yeah. Like already, you know, one, two, three months. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And so, and we created in our offspring because we are that way, you know what I mean?Cause that's the energy they're used to cause they don't think, Oh, dad's angry or they're just learning the energy connection. And if the energy connection is anger, that's what they know. That's what becomes familiar in the elephant. Right. So that's what they're going to look for and that's what they're going to come off of. And that's what we grow up with. And you know, yeah. I've learned over time and everything that I've done that the more I've released tude if I really wish I could just transport myself back 25, 30 years ago. Yeah. Cause it's like in the, in the state of BIM. Cause I'd go back and be like, fuck, I wouldn't have clowns without anything. I don't give a shit. You know what I mean? And not getting up, not give a shit in the sense of like don't care, but like there's no need for an impact. I can execute, I can do this, I can do that because it's, it's in proper context and I've set myself up to do this and be successful around it. Doesn't mean it wouldn't weigh on me. I'm still human being, but I have the tools to be able to dump it fast. That's the thing is like, and how I'm understanding this, this situation is that a lot of these folks in positionsin their day to day job, the thing that they chose to do, to provide for their families and to serve, um, they might see, do or experience things that makes them feel shameful, makes them feel angry, makes them feel like the world is just totally fucked. And if you carry those feelings, like it's no wonder like, that would not be a good place to exist. You know?Yeah. I'm at and I'm gonna, I'm going to give a note like a side note. So if you do this breath work technique, understand when you regulate the system properly, you may have a release, like you may just start crying, not add anything. And you know, one of the techniques we use have on the range and doing some of the meditation work is if you start to feel that, uh, you know, I'm going up, I'm going to go relax the jaw, open the mouth, open it wide completely, just allow the breath to leave the body, don't force it. And nine times out of 10, you'll just start crying and it's okay. That's if you're in a safe space, like you said, you can ask and it's not, it's, it's not a sadness. It's, it's the body offloading, right? That's all it is. You know, guys, I've had seal team guys on the cushion on the range just dump and they're not sad.They're not crying at something. There you are finally allowing, you're walking you that. Yeah, you're, you're, you're popping that, you're popping the bow of man. You're, you're letting the freaking pressure release off and, and there's going to be, and you are, you may laugh uncontrollably. You know what I mean? There, there, there will be this emotional release. So if you do this and start feeling this, cause I was thinking about it and I'm like, shit, if we're doing, so if you're doing the work, there may come a point where your body begins to regulate to a spot where you're the English. Like, wait, what's happening is this, don't resist. Assertion yeah, don't resist it. Relax the jaw. Let the breath go and let it and just let it be what it's going to be. So man, this past,this past April, um, I did a men's retreat, um, new warrior training adventure. You heard of this one now you were telling me about it. So the mankind project is a nonprofit. Yup. Um, religion agnostic, sex orientation. Agnos, gay dude, straight dudes, black, white, Mexican, all men, all males, biological males. Um, and I don't, I'm not gonna share the full experience because if you, if this is something you want to do, I want you to experience it and have no bias from what I, from what I share. But, um, I will say that not only are we lacking a Rite of passage into manhood in America, that's like a really big thing where it's like, when do I become a man and what age is it? 18, I don't know. I can go to Warren. I kill people. Does that mean, but I can't drink.Like it's a very weird thing, right? Societies and tribes, all of our ancestors had this Rite of passage from this moment forward, you're now a man, behave like it. However, we don't have that. And so there's a lot of really weird shit, especially in like an alpha like agro culture that is police, fire, military. Um, I was able to experience levels of emotion, of sadness, of happiness and of connection with other males that I didn't know it was possible in a non-sexual way. Yeah, totally right. So let me just preface this. This is not some weird thing like that. No judgment. But, um, bro, it was life changing to go through this experience with other men who like, you know, uh, who were experiencing the same feelings of shame and self doubt and anxiety that I was feeling and they were like super successful businessmen. Millionaires, right. Uh, maybe. See, yo guys, dude, it's crazy. Yeah, it's crazy. And I'm just like, Holy shit.Do we get a long way to go? We've got a lot to learn. I mean, we have got a lot to learn about ourselves and about our communities and so see, I dude, well, let's do this. Let's wrap up today's conversation. We'll come back for another one because I think that'll be, we're definitely worth wild. Uh, I'm going to make sure you're linked up on the site with all the show notes. Um, will you do me a favor? Will you send me a writeup on just some simple, what we discussed, just those steps so I can drop them into the show notes. So there'll be available for you online, uh, at mindset radio.com. You'll see this episode up with, uh, with Colby. Uh, check-in, grab the show notes, we'll make some downloadable PDFs or something for you so you can grab those. You've got some actionable, uh, kind of step by step processes. Do this things. I'd love to hear your comments and make sure you hop into the Facebook group mindset radio, uh, off our Facebook page. Go ahead.You know what I'll do, man. Um, so typically my breathwork challenge is 50 bucks. I'm going to put together a coupon code where it's free only for listeners of the show. Wow. Coupon code mindset. Go to my website on the navigation, you'll see breathwork challenge. This introduces, it's four weeks of content, teaches everything that I've learned as well as helps you implement it into a daily practice. When you're checking out, just enter code mindset and I'll just wave the entire fee. Wow. That's, it's that powerful dudes like [inaudible].We literally have no excuse to not do this. That's pretty rad. So I, you better, I better see a flood. I mean there's, you know, I virtually, I'm going to watch the numbers on the show and then I'm going to check with Colby, and if you're not taking advantage of that, I'm going to boot you from ever listening to this show ever again. Don't shame them, bro. No, no. But I will shame you. So, uh, so yeah, man. Cool. Well then all of that stuff will be linked up, linked over to Kobe's website, a little bit more about him. Uh, what to do, you know, how to, how to connect with him, follow his ugly butt on, uh, on all the social media stuff. Uh, there's always value streaming out of this guy. So thanks for listening. That's going to be your show. We're going to wrap this up. We'll see again, I think Thursday. Yeah, on Thursday. 

Listen in cringey horror as this Blond(e) recounts the time she posted a literary analysis of Frank Ocean lyrics to the subreddit Hiphopheads for a sea of bloodthirsty Stans on the day Frank’s new album was supposed to drop (but didn’t). In the blog post, published on Catapult by yours truly, I compare Frank to the original hip hop head—Shakespeare—and my own head is rightfully served to me on a spinning chrome platter. I’ll talk about the crazy genius that is Frank Ocean, and get into the psyche of his obsessed fans who I psyched out with some non-album news. Finally, I will delve into the comments section, where I am labeled again and again as a “pretentious white guy.” (My picture was RIGHT THERE on the bottom of the post!) --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

Well Well Well. There you are. Right There! I see you. What are you doing? Look around you and take notice of where you are right now! Really, take notice. Being aware of the moment slows down the brain down, helps you feel more alive and more present. That brings on a feeling of peace and connectedness. So go ahead, take 30 seconds and notice what is going on around you! Tell someone what you noticed. Here's the audio https://tinyurl.com/r3tqcun BE ALIVE! --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/daniel-c-clark/message

In this episode of the Managing Uncertainty Podcast, Bryghtpath Principal & Chief Executive Bryan Strawser, along with Consultant Bray Wheeler, discuss making yourself important as your organization's security, continuity, resilience, or disaster recovery leader. //static.leadpages.net/leadboxes/current/embed.js Related Episodes & Blog Posts Episode #21: I hope you dance Episode #46: Interacting with the C-Suite Episode #84: Making the case to Leadership Episode Transcript Bryan Strawser: Hello and welcome to the Managing Uncertainty Podcast. This is Bryan Strawser, Principal and Chief Executive here at Bryghtpath. Bray Wheeler: This is Bray Wheeler, Consultant here at Bryghtpath. Bryan Strawser: In today's episode we're going to talk about the idea of making yourself important as leaders in these fields around resilience that we focus on here. Security, crisis management, business continuity, intelligence, crisis communications. I'll start off by saying I had a friend in my previous company, we grew up together in the organization. We were close friends, kind of fell out a little bit and got back, came back into each other's circles when he was fighting cancer. Unfortunately the person I'm talking about, Josh Harden died in 2011. Josh had a couple of different sayings and one of them was that as a leader in the security world, and that's what we were doing at the time, that you have to find ways to make yourself important, that you have to be willing to make yourself important. He always illustrated that through a story about you can't wait for your ticket to the dance. Bryan Strawser: You just have to show up which would be a very Josh way of saying that you need to make yourself important, that you need to be willing to go out and proactively engage. I would say, as you know, I've spent almost 30 years now in this field, I would say that there's a lot of times I see leaders who, yes, we're all in support functions but we're also in very important support functions. In a lot of cases that we're not willing to dance, we're not willing to go out there and put ourselves out and be aggressive in an appropriate way about advocating for what we need in terms of resources and personnel and doing the right thing by your team. I mean, those kinds of things are hard. I think sometimes we think, well, I'm a support function so I'm just going to hide here in my corner and no one will bother me. That's no way to move forward, move your company forward or to advance the careers of your team or do the right thing by your organization. Bray Wheeler: Sure. Well, I mean, it's hard enough when you're a profit center for an organization to go make requests for resources and capital and all that other stuff. It's really hard when it's a support function because you almost feel guilty walking into those conversations going, I need resources, I need this, I need this to help. I think part of that complexity there is a lot of the stuff it's not organic business type things that people in the organization intrinsically get. It's real hard. It's kind of its niche kind of specialty things that once you get it aren't hard, but on the surface kind of looking in, it can be a little intimidating on their part and thereby, do we really need it or how important is it? You know, that kind of stuff. We don't know who's probably listening to this podcast. This stuff is real important. You should make it real important. Bryan Strawser: In doing so you should make yourself important. I feel like I see this a lot in two specific disciplines. I see this in what I would think of as general security, corporate security endeavors. I see this just as much in business continuity where leaders simultaneously complain about not having the things that they want or need or not getting the respect they think they deserve in the organization. Then at the same time not being willing to engage in the things you need to do in order to obtain those resources. I feel like that comes up a lot. Often, I think rather that we've just made some of this too complicated. I think one of my common sayings that I got from my wife's friend, Fred Klapetzky, who she used to work with it at Ernst & Young. Fred would say, business continuity is not rocket science. As a leader in business continuity, your challenge is not deciphering the rocket science, but it's really about how do you market this internally to your organization to make it important, and in doing so you're making yourself important. Bray Wheeler: To demonstrate the value of what it brings to that business process, that function of the company, to the company itself. Bryan Strawser: I remember early in my career with our previous organization where, man, I couldn't have been with the company for a year yet. I was in a retail store and I was in a security function, plainclothes security function. My job was to catch shoplifters and deter other kinds of incidents. Morning huddle before the store opened, the leader on duty was like, hey, we're having a visit today from, I want to say the guy's name was Fred something. He was like the ops specialist for the region and he's going to be looking at some things. I walked up to her later and I go, I'll do my best to be out of the way. She goes, no, you should meet Fred. Fred is a good leader. Fred will take an interest in you and how else are you going to learn how this company works if you're hiding because you think that he's not interested because you work in security, you would both be wrong and that would not be the right thing for your career. You need to know this guy. Sure. You know what? She was right. Fred was actually was interested, had advice and there were a number of other things I've learned in that interaction. My initial response was, well, I should just go hide in the office. Bray Wheeler: Right. Bray Wheeler: I'll stay out of the way. Bryan Strawser: I'm the security guy. Bray Wheeler: I'll stay out of the way. Bryan Strawser: No, I made myself important because Theresa told me I should make myself important. Bray Wheeler: It really is. In order to advance the things that, the work that you're doing, people have to know who you are. They need to know you're a resource. They need to know you're not only you but your team as well, and stressing kind of the importance of your team within the organization. If you're fortunate to have a couple people helping support some of these functions, in a lot of cases it's a one-person shop. If you do have other components even if it's down to the hourly person in the app center, you're putting a face, you're putting some known entities, people are more likely to gravitate towards that. Putting yourself out there is huge to start drawing that interest in that business and really it's not about you, it's about what your function can do for the organization and do for other people rather than waiting until they're coming to find you because they need something. Because most of the time they're only going to do that. They're only going to come find you when it benefits them or they need something. Bryan Strawser: Right. I mean, I see this a lot. I think earlier in my career, I took me a while to really understand this and have the confidence to be willing to do the things that I think you need to do to make yourself important. I remember this kind of pivotal moment watching something happen in front of my eyes that I wouldn't have done because I just didn't think of the business in this way. We were at a regional meeting in Nashville, Tennessee and we were at a mixer. One of those mixers you don't really have anymore where there's alcohol and that kind of thing. I don't know, there's a couple of hundred of us in this courtyard area at the hotel the event was at. I was talking with my boss and he watched his boss walk over who is from a different part of the company had never really worked in our area. Bryan Strawser: He went over and started talking with the senior vice president for our region and then went over and sat in the corner and they had a drink together privately and were chatting for quite a while. You could tell that it was just this interesting interaction between somebody that run the whole business for a fourth of the organization, and somebody who is new at the director level but had never worked in that region before talking. I was fascinated by this interaction because he was two levels above me but I was like, I'm never going to have that kind of confidence to walk over and have that conversation. But what that individual was doing was he was making himself important. He was seeking advice from a senior leader. He was trying to understand the region and what was going on. I only know this because I later asked him about this interaction in a mentoring conversation we're having. That guy that did that, by the way, is now the CEO of Lowe's. It was Marvin Ellison, CEO of J. C. Penney, President at Home Depot, previous VP of Security in Home Depot, prior to that was at Target. Bray Wheeler: I don't know Marvin personally, but I know a lot of people who knew him and kind of came up through the ranks in this organization and yeah, it very much sounds like his MO to go out there and share that story... I think if you follow him on social media and things like that, he's still doing that kind of stuff even at that top level of putting himself out there and sharing his story and understanding what other people's stories are to make the organization better and to understand what's going on. I think that's the flip side of that too, is if you're a leader of one of these functions, make sure that you're making those functions important, but also advocating as well back within the organization as, hey, these are people you guys should go meet. Bray Wheeler: My team is working out some stuff and here's what they can do for you. If you're not doing that, you're probably not the best leader in the organization. It's important to remember to share that. Just share that story rather than waiting for a problem to arise to demonstrate the value or sharing those things like waiting until you have to have these conversations. The more proactive you are I think is really kind of where we're getting to is the more proactive you are, the better off your organization's going to be in that function is going to be to support the broader org. Bryan Strawser: As consultants, I feel like, you know, when we're working inside of an organization, we have a little bit of immunity to the corporate political game at that company that goes on because we're really getting paid to be very straight forward with our advice and observations and recommendations. I mean I think there's been the countless number of times even this year where we've been working with different clients, and at the heart of some of the challenges, we would hear something like, well, I can't drive that. I can't push that person because they're a business leader and they're not going to want to listen to [inaudible] me. We're like, but you need to push that team, that person, this initiative because it is important because it is as you've defined the right thing to do to advance your strategies and your strategies are tied to the strategic objectives of the organization, and they are therefore important. In a lot of cases, they'll have the senior leadership support to do the things that they need to put in place, but they can't knock down the barriers that are in the way and in the middle, middle management kind of challenges and be willing to push. Bray Wheeler: That becomes the part of the art to the science of all of it is trying to figure out who those key partners are and making sure that they are your partners and that they're not seeing you and you're trying to not see them as the obstacle. It's one of those things kind of your point a second ago is in the most professional business-appropriate kind of way, you almost need to stay in their face. You need to stay in their face until you've come to some sort of resolution of where that value is or where the issue is or where that problem that needs to be solved is. Really, it's about solving the problem rather than, again, back to making yourself important. It really is how do you solve the problems for the organization. Bray Wheeler: If you're not trying to knock those walls down, if you're not trying to build those bridges after you've knocked the wall down, you're not doing your job and it's not going to be as effective in terms of the benefits and the outcomes that you're seeking with some of the stuff. Again, this is support, critical support functions to the organization that needs to take place but aren't going to be seen probably as such and just reality because they're not typically profit centers. Bryan Strawser: Right. I mean we talked before I think in a couple of episodes ago about how do you get support for things that you want to do and we talked a little bit about quantitative and qualitative benefits of doing some things. These areas are almost never profit centers to an organization, but we should not let that be the barrier to seeking the kind of resources and tools, software, capital, et cetera to do the job the way that your company has hired you to do the job and advance those things for your team. I remember arguing once for business continuity software, and the way it worked is that you went into a big capital prioritization meeting for technology projects and there were representatives from all the business and support teams. They were like, my boss was a person that sat at the table. I don't know, there were probably 16, 17 people in the room in addition to everyone else that was presenting. Bryan Strawser: Then a bunch of IT leaders who Strava was supposed to put obstacles in front of pretty much everything. I presented for business continuity software. The financial return on implementing the software was exactly zero. I mean, it was a money-losing proposition but we were manually managing more than 200 business continuity plans and close to 150 plus disaster recovery plans using a home-baked SharePoint tool. We went in and asked for this money. The first year I asked for it, I didn't get it. It was not an insignificant spend, but it wasn't a huge spend. I went and met with our VP over IT stuff that supported our organization later and said, "Why didn't we get that?" "Well, the reason Bryan is that we prioritized getting new price range software that was going to make the company 40 million dollars in profit versus your money-losing BC tool," but come back. Bray Wheeler: Right. Bryan Strawser: The next fiscal year there I was, I got it at that time. Again, it was the example of, I think this is a good example of the business case was stacked against it in terms of financial return but it was the right thing to do that align with our strategic objectives. I wasn't going to be afraid of going in and presenting and representing my function and asking for the tools we need to do the job the way the company wanted me to do the job. Bray Wheeler: Wait. Bryan Strawser: I just had to wait a year, which by the way, I complained about that for a year. Bray Wheeler: I'm sure. Well, it's making yourself important again, making sure you remain important. Yeah, I mean sometimes it's to your point, it's just the competition that's almost stacked against you internally in terms of what big dogs are coming to play at the table. It may not just be for capital, it might be for a strategy or a process or prioritization of, hey, we got to get this initiative done before we can get to this one. I think the message that came through in that kind of after meeting is really like, there's still is value to what's happening. When we see everything on paper and we're looking strategically at what's going on, we can't make that decision today because there is a workaround that's in place right now, but come back and eventually, you'll be able to click. I think that's another piece of this is not getting discouraged when somebody doesn't see your value or you bump up against bigger competition for those resources at that point that it's just not your day. You come back and you wait and you try it again and make sure that the story remains at the forefront to say, hey, this is still a thing. It's still a thing. It's still a thing. Bryan Strawser: I was making a snide comment that I complained about this for the better part of the year before I went back and argued, but really what I did is I met with every leader that had a say in this thing in the time between one year and the next and I made my case for why we needed this probably to the point of annoyance. Bray Wheeler: Sometimes that works. Bryan Strawser: Sometimes that works. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. I also did, and I tried to do this not in a snide manner, but sometimes my sarcasm comes out. Every time that something happened that we needed information that would've been in a tool like this, I pointed that out, particularly when we happened to have a data center problem and the CIO goes, well, what about what's here versus there and blah, blah blah. We all looked at each other. I'm like, well, we would know the answer to that but we didn't get our tool so we're going to have to go do some manual analysis to figure out the answer to that question, which was we didn't really have time for that. We had some decisions to make. I tried to do that. Again, I tried to do that not in a sarcastic or snide manner but I think important to point out like we made some priorities and decisions and that's what you're getting paid to do. I'm here to tell you that if you had decided differently then we would have this. Bray Wheeler: Right. On the surface, the request for, in this example, the software, it's a zero return in that proposal but when you're able to start demonstrating in real life- Bryan Strawser: Yeah, the qualitative value. Bray Wheeler: Hey, I would know this and you'd be saving money right now. There is financial value somewhere in there, but you can't say, well, three months from now we're going to have a data center issue and it's going to save you this amount of money. When it happens, you can start totaling that up and saying, hey, between last presentation and this presentation where we're asking for this, we could have potentially saved this amount of money during that time on top of, yeah, it's a zero return but we could have saved this much. Bryan Strawser: I think another thing that we haven't really talked about in this discussion about making yourself important is the more than the teams that you interact with come to believe that you understand their business and that you understand the principal business of the organization, the more important I think you become as a partner in their eyes. Particularly if you start to value the same kind of thing like you have a shared value system. I think the best place I can illustrate this is the first 12 years of my career I was in the field. I was in a retail organization. I was a security manager and district and group manager, so I'm running increasingly larger security teams but I am directly supporting the retail stores. That's where my team is at. That's where I'm at every day. I'm partnering with a business leader over the stores just like there was an HR partner there with us as well. The three of us were kind of the leadership team. Bryan Strawser: I feel like particularly after a couple of years under my belt, I could look at a store the same way that my partner did. I understood what was important to him or her. I reinforce our shared expectations with the stores' organization. The stores looked at me in the same way as, hey, this is a district or group level leader coming to visit. I'm going to shape up and I'm going to take this visit seriously. I'm going to give Bryan the same respect that I'm going to give to my boss. I feel like I earned that because part of elevating my role was understanding what was important to the business and looking at things through their eyes and being able to reinforce that when I was out and about in a store. I'm here to visit. I wasn't going there to visit my team. I was going there to visit the store and my team was a part of that visit. Bray Wheeler: Yeah, your focus happened to be a specific area of it, but it didn't take away from a broader view. I think that's hugely important in terms of those partnerships and related things to that is and a key piece of that is being authentic about it. It can't just be superficial, oh yeah, tell me, okay, you cover X, Y, Z, great and go regurgitate it to somebody else. You have to authentically care about what that is and start to get into the weeds, to your point, knowing what your partner leader would be looking for, what they're interested in so that you can articulate that and reinforce that. Bray Wheeler: It almost becomes a united front. A lot of times in some of these areas were like a BC in a DR where they might be organizationally different in different locations, there's got to be that shared connectivity of what that is. It's almost a united front that you can speak to the other's business because at the end of the day there's an intrinsic connection there that has to happen for the organization regardless. You might as well be a united front in that and be able to make your cases in different places. Bryan Strawser: Well, I think it works to your advantage too because then your business partner is looking at your function, security in this case, as an integral part of making his or her business operations successful and allows you to drive your own priorities by essentially teaching them what you want them to look at when they're in a store. Like, here are the three or four questions that I want you to ask, or here are the three or four things I want you to look at when you're in. I didn't have to worry about basic physical security stuff after a while because everybody understood that no matter who was coming, they were looking at like, are the doors locked, is the truck dock secure, is the back door secure, what's in your storage trailers, what's the security team up to. Bryan Strawser: There were questions that went along with that. I think it's a force multiplier if you're able to establish that. The selfish part of it was it elevated my role as a security leader. It elevated the importance of my team's role in the stores because we were viewed as a partner. Our job was to enable the business. It wasn't to obstruct. It wasn't to obstruct. Right? There's a reason we lock these things, here's why and why that's important, why that's part of our value system here of what we do. Yeah, but that's part of enabling and protecting your business, not, I'm trying to get you in trouble because you didn't padlock a dock door or whatever. Bray Wheeler: Well, I think your force multiplier point, when you have multiple leaders advocating for the same thing, whatever that thing is, the gap or the opportunity that needs to be addressed, it's a lot easier to make the case or to get those resources when multiple people are saying, this is a thing, this is a thing we need to address. Hey, have you guys addressed the thing over in this other area? That speaks volumes. It makes people pay attention to the fact that they're hearing it from different people even though you're kind of like-minded and situationally, you know, positionally the same within the organization or as a functional capability. Bray Wheeler: If you have multiple people saying it, somebody may have credibility with another leader that you don't necessarily have because you haven't had as much interaction or there's, you know, be real, there could be history there or something like that. When somebody else says it, going, oh, okay. Yeah, I'll take an interest in that. That force multiplier piece I think is a great point in terms of that's why you share your story. That's why you put yourself out there. That's why you make friends like we've talked about before when you need a friend- Bryan Strawser: It's too late to make one. Bray Wheeler: It's too late to make one. Bryan Strawser: I'm reminded too of another, well, I ended up from my time in the stores that I think is illustrative of something that you just brought, that you just mentioned. I remember having had a high potential leader one time working for me in Boston who was running the hell out of a super difficult store that was a mess when he got there. We'd changed the store manager and some other things had happened. He was doing great and my boss and I wanted to send him through initial interviews to promote to run a district of his own, so run eight to 10, 12 stores. We're in a talent planning meeting, and talent planning meetings were conducted as a big team so your partners from HR and the stores were all there. Bryan Strawser: We're just as openly talking about store managers as we are, you know, the managers under them including the security manager and HR manager in the store, which of course had independent reporting relationships. These guys were part of my team. I'm walking through like next-level talent, here's what I think I want to do. I remember my group vice president goes, hey, you know, I've met this guy that you're talking about, but I've never had a real conversation with him so I'm going to trust you on this but I'm part of the interview process. The next time I'm in the store, we need to make sure he's more visible. It was an interesting conversation I had with my manager in the store because what I wanted him to do was make himself important. I wanted him to step up in a visit from essentially the store managers, bosses, bosses' boss, and have an interaction with them not because we're trying to get him in trouble, right. Bryan Strawser: I want to put him in front of somebody who's going to interview him and let him have a chance to have a more normal interaction. He was terrified. Now, to be fair, when I was his age, I was kind of terrified to this too. He was terrified. It was like, well, he doesn't want to hear from me. I'm like, actually he's asking to get to know you better. Right? We're going to do two things. You're going to prep two, three, four things that you want to say to him, talk with him about. You're going to run them past me so I can help you get the right things. Then second, you're going to lunch with us, with just us. It's going to be like four of us. You're coming. He said, "I don't want to do that." We can go over to you, but you need to. Bray Wheeler: You're right. Bryan Strawser: You need to because he wants to get to know you. This will make the interview process easier. You've got to make yourself important. He's not just coming to the store to visit with the store manager and that team, you are part of that team. He's coming to see the whole business and you're an important part of the business. Trust me. I mean, okay, so there were a few social missteps along the way, but you did a great job. He's gone on to have an incredible career, probably not due to me, due to others that he's working with but it was that interaction. It was making himself important, getting him that visibility. I don't think he would have done that on his own. Bray Wheeler: No. I think that for me too personally that it's a real challenge to try and get over that hump of talking about yourself, talking about your function, making yourself important, doing those things. It can be really intimidating and scary, but now with the wisdom of age and experience and just looking at it from just this... You know, even just looking at it from a business standpoint, not even personal pieces of it, putting yourself out there and sharing that story and making these things important to other people, I think we've talked about it quite a bit now, is critical. Even if you viewed it less about yourself and more about trying to take a view of, hey, this is about my function and our role or our capabilities or our importance within the organization. You should be able to speak to that regardless of the personal components of it. I mean, it can be intimidating. It can be scary. Bray Wheeler: I think if that is the case, it is going to your leader and having those conversations of saying, hey, this is the story I want to share. Did I craft this right? This is what I'm thinking. Hey, I want to go talk to these people because I feel like they have the keys to the doors to be able to get to these other people or to get to these other functions. Part of that is being a little bit strategic about who you're talking to and who you're sharing your story and potentially in what order, because sometimes that matters too. I think it's important. Bryan Strawser: That's it for this episode of the Managing Uncertainty Podcast. We hope you tune in next week. In the meantime, don't wait for your ticket to the dance. Just show up.

Your beliefs -- good or bad -- are guiding your life experience.  A problem is that it’s our unexamined beliefs wreak havoc and dictate the quality of our life experience.  Why? Because we probably don’t even realize that some of our beliefs are beliefs. We assume those beliefs are facts when, in reality, they’re just ideas. They’re nothing more than stories in our heads. Remember, what you believe and repeat often enough, your unconscious mind will, via the reticular activating system, filter out and deliver to you. So you might as well believe good stuff. Right? There are three types of beliefs: Fundamental beliefs. These are powerful, die-hard beliefs that you learned as a child. They drive your expectations, your behavior, and your results. They’re the guiding principles you live by -- whether you like them or not.  Newly adopted beliefs. These are the beliefs that you’ve grown into as you’ve matured and experienced the world for yourself. They’re not as deeply rooted as the fundamental beliefs. They’re newer, fresher, more fragile. Conflicting beliefs. This is what happens when new and old beliefs contradict one another. It’s what happens when new data conflicts with old neurology. Unless sorted out, conflicting beliefs will leave us paralyzed, confused, and feeling stuck. The challenge is to make sure your beliefs feel good, serve you, and move your life in your desired direction. You can create your own beliefs. You can change your beliefs. Beliefs happen in the mind before you experience them in your environment. The process of changing beliefs requires patience, dedication, and repetition.   To make sure your beliefs are serving you… Make a list of your fundamental beliefs. What are your beliefs about other people? What are your beliefs about yourself? About prosperity? About the future?  Identify whether those listed beliefs serve you. Do they make you feel good?  For the beliefs that don’t serve you, ask, “How is this belief limiting me?” Ask, “What would I like to believe instead?” Answer the question, “How will this new belief serve me?” It will be some time before you see evidence of your new belief, but don’t let that bother or deter you. Just focus on the big picture and on the outcomes you want...and once you change your beliefs, you’ll change your reality.   Thanks for listening!   To share your thoughts: Leave a note in the comment section below Use the “I have a question” button Share this show on Twitter, Facebook, and LinkedIn    Links from today’s episode: Episode 1 — We learned about the reticular activating system   To help out the show: Leave a positive review on iTunes. Your ratings and reviews help, and I read each and every one. Subscribe on iTunes or Stitcher or Libsyn

The sports agent double feature where the similarities end RIGHT THERE........

Hey everyone, it’s Sensei Victoria Whitfield here, your journey partner in business, welcoming you back to episode 74 of the Journeypreneur Podcast. This is your source for channeled holisticstress management techniques, guidance, inspiration and motivation to stay on your path to rapid financial ascension and massive impact as a conscious entrepreneur. The title of today’s podcast episode is Self Sabotage Is So Trendy. Oh my gosh! Self-sabotage amongst entrepreneurs is so trendy. There’s a trend alert, I’m telling you, I’ve noticed it and oh my Goddess, I’m so the forefront of this trend, you guys. Oh Gawd! (LOL!) Let’s get into this; and this is a continuation of episode 73 where we were talking about how you feel does not matter. Building on that and throwing rocks at myself, where my main Mantra is "what matters most is how you feel." I want to get into this a little bit further, and own my own journey as I walk alongside you as a Journeypreneur myself. So, I have a limiting belief around being a successful business owner. I have this concept of it in my head of it is someone who does everything, who has it all and does it all and does it all perfectly. Right? There is this perfection paralysis that I have in my head and that I’ve been processing over the years. Let's talk about it! - Are you blocking your next business breakthrough? Take the assessment at http://www.victoriawhitfield.com/quiz to find out, and book your Breakthrough Call with me!

  Don West and Shawn Vincent explore the Gyrell Lee case, a case Shawn calls, “a perfect example of how can you take such a clear-cut justifiable use of force and ruin it with your behavior before and after the shooting.”   TRANSCRIPT: Don West: Welcome to another episode of our ongoing podcast In Self-Defense. Hi, I'm Don West, national trial counsel for CCW Safe and a practicing criminal defense attorney. I'm here with litigation consultant and the author of our ongoing self-defense articles, a compliment to our podcast and co-host of this podcast series, Shawn Vincent. Hey Shawn. Shawn Vincent: Hey Don, what's happening? Don West: Nice to talk with you again. Do we have something interesting and informative today? Shawn Vincent: Well I'd like to think that we always have something interesting and informative, but today I am excited to talk about this case because when I wrote about this case, we got some interesting comments from the readers. They basically said if you can't use a gun and deadly force to defend yourself in this situation, then when can you? But yet, as clear as the details seem to some of our readers, this guy still got convicted of second degree murder and sent to jail for this self-defense incident. This is going to be the Gyrell Lee case. You've done a little bit of reading up on this too because when we get to the end of this, there's a lot of interesting things that are happening in the appellate court on this case. Don West: That's exactly right. Unlike some of the cases that we analyze and talk about and break down into our four perspectives or elements of self-defense, this is one that has a very clear procedural history where the incident took place, there was a jury trial, ultimately a conviction and then at least --  well, there were two stages in the appellate process, and I think the issues are important for our listeners to be aware of and I think overall this is a cautionary tale that will be of significant value for anyone that may find themselves in a potential lethal self-defense scenario. Shawn Vincent: Yeah so we're looking at self-defense case that was so controversial, or so close to the line -- you and I have talked about this thin line between self-defense and murder, right? In this case, it's so close to that line that two of the jurors who convicted him with second degree murder were crying when they delivered this verdict. That's how upset they were, and then the fact that the Supreme Court in North Carolina stepped in and ended up vacating that conviction on a couple of important legal issues just shows how close it is. Let's ratchet it up one more time. We've done nine of these. This is the eighth out of nine that we're covering. All of them that we've looked at so far involved a shooter who shot an unarmed person. Right? In a lot of these cases there was some suspicion that maybe they had a gun, they didn't know if they had a gun, but in the end the person who died, the attacker in some of these cases or the intruder in some of these cases ended up to be unarmed -- hich obviously right off the bat makes them a very complicated case for the shooter. Don West: Yes. Shawn Vincent: Right, that imminent threat of death wasn't as real as maybe the shooter thought it was at first. This case, the attacker, the guy who died, had a gun, had just shot the defendant's cousin right in front of him, and then had turned the gun on him. That's where some of the readers of the column were like, "What the heck? If he can't use deadly force in that scenario, when can you?" Don West: There are some facts in this case. I guess they're facts in that this is information that was in the case that impressed the jury enough to ask questions and impressed the prosecutor enough to emphasize focusing on specific aspects of those final seconds which gave the prosecutor an argument why this wasn't self-defense, but murder. Probably had some pretty significant impact on the jury because they asked a specific question, asked to review some testimony that related to a divot in the asphalt. I don't want to get too far ahead of us on the facts. Shawn Vincent: Sure let's dive right into the story then. Don West: Let me quote to you just- Shawn Vincent: Please. Don West: ...two sentences from one of the appellate opinions that I think really helps set the stage for this discussion and emphasizes exactly how these self-defense cases can turn out to be only matters of seconds in terms of what's legally important and then what is factually significant. We talk about these cases often from minutes that lead up to it or an ongoing sequence of events that culminates, but from a legal perspective whether there is that imminent threat, whether there is an opportunity to retreat, if there's a legal requirement to retreat, whether there is proportional force, whether there is force used after the threat was neutralized; all of that stuff typically boils down to just a matter of seconds. The court in this case, this would be the North Carolina Supreme Court, in its opinion said this case is about what a man did in the few seconds after he saw his cousin get shot. Don West: We, meaning the court, now have to consider that man's response to this violent event in light of the doctrines of self-defense and defense of another under our stand your ground statutes. So I know you'll lay the factual context for this and it extends well beyond just a matter of seconds, but this is the Supreme Court of North Carolina saying that's where they focused their analysis. That's where they decide in this instance, whether there were mistakes made at the trial level that would warrant a new trial. So that's why I think in some regards it's a cautionary tale factually because there's a tendency in self-defense cases for people to get hung up on things that happened well in advance of the critical moment and sometimes to ignore those things that happened right after, which could factually and then legally, turn what might be a legitimate self-defense shooting into a criminal act. Don West: What we have in this case are aspects of all of those things that we can expand in more detail and discuss how that might impact someone that's listening should they ever become involved in a lethal self-defense situation. So sorry for the bit of a ramble and diversion, but Shawn let's talk about the context of the Gyrell Lee case factually. Shawn Vincent: Sure. So here's what we're going to do. We're going to take ourselves Elizabeth City, North Carolina on the wee morning of New Year's Day, 2013. That's when Gyrell Lee, a guy, 24 years old, is spending New Year's Eve into the morning with his cousin who he considered his best friend, Jamieal Walker. So they're at Jamieal Walker's house and they're hanging out, outside sort of around the side of the house through most of the evening and there's a guy named Quinton Epps, who according to the newspaper was a known troublemaker who had a little bit of beef with Walker. He comes by multiple times throughout the evening. It starts out calm enough, but everyone's drinking. Epps comes by. Each time he's more agitated. Each time the verbal confrontation becomes more aggressive, perhaps not more threatening, but there's this mounting tension. Shawn Vincent: At a certain point in the evening, Lee told investigators that he went to his car. He's a licensed concealed carrier. He pulls out his .45 pistol and carries it with him now. He said, “just in case.” Indicating that he had some indication to think that things might get violent perhaps. Epps comes by again, he slow-rolls past Walker's house and ends up parking his car a couple of houses down the street. Walker and Lee decide to walk down the street. They left the relative safety of Walker's house, walk down the street to meet Epps there. Once they get there, a verbal altercation breaks out. It gets very heated. Lee can see that Epps has a gun behind his back. Don West: Now at this point Shawn, the confrontation or the escalating argument is not between Lee and Epps, but Epps and Lee's cousin. Shawn Vincent: Yeah, Lee's cousin Walker. So Walker and Epps are into it. Lee's basically just maybe a bystander at this point, perhaps he's there intentionally to basically get his cousin's back if things go down. That's something that becomes, I think, an issue for the jury when they have to deliberate this case. Don West: Even though there's nothing illegal about him getting his gun. He's licensed to have it and having it -- the prosecutor no doubt would attempt to say that Lee was preparing to do violence with the gun, whereas Lee would say I was taking some precautionary steps that if this thing got out of control, I would be able to protect my cousin and myself. Shawn Vincent: Exactly and that's the tack that the defense attorney would take at trial, but in the end you and I both know that it's up to the 12 folks that you pick for the jury that are going to make that judgment. He did, he went there, he saw that Epps had a gun behind his back. Lee retrieved his pistol and then the verbal fight gets to a point where Lee's cousin Walker punches Epps in the face. Epps's response to this is to reach out, grab Walker's top of his hood on his hoodie, and he takes his gun and he fires multiple times into Walker's stomach. He shot him multiple times point blank range. Walker runs off and he ends up finding his way behind some house where he dies and he's found sometime later. Then according to Lee, Epps turns his gun to him and that's Lee's now or never moment. He has his gun in his hand. He fires eight times and Epps falls to the ground. He eventually bled to death there in the middle of the street. Shawn Vincent: I mean it's important to add here that in a jailhouse call that the prosecutor's got their hands on, Lee says that he would've shot earlier to protect his cousin, but in the tussling, he couldn't "give a clear shot." Don West: So we have the issue raised through this call, but also there's some factual support I guess that there could be a claim defense of others. Shawn Vincent: Sure. The point, the Supreme Court Justices makes note of that. Don West: Yes that's exactly right and under certain scenarios you do have the right to defend another if you had the right to defend yourself under the same situation, and I think under the facts as you've outlined them as they played out, there was clearly a point in time where Lee would've had the legal right to defend Walker against Epps, but as he then later explained that you just pointed out, he said, "I was going to do that. I was thinking of doing that.”  But because of where they were and how they were positioned together, he didn't have a clear shot. So I guess what he's really saying is he was afraid he would shoot his cousin instead of Epps. Shawn Vincent: I think that's right. Don West: Keep in mind that whole thing probably lasted three or four seconds. Four or five seconds maybe. Shawn Vincent: Of course, it always takes way more time to describe it than these events actually happen. Don West: So then the critical fact there becomes, after Walker is shot, Epps turns and turns his gun toward Lee and by then, Lee has his gun out and is physically able to operate it and winds up shooting Epps several times, ultimately resulting in his death. Shawn Vincent: That's right, and then what happens next is very critical. Everybody including Lee flees the scene. Everybody takes off leaving Epps to die there in the middle of the street. In fact, Lee went and hid his gun under a garbage can and then fails to call the police. So when police get this phone call, there's shots fired. They show up, they find Epps's body there, they start getting witnesses together, and then they eventually find Walker a couple hours later dead behind a house. What they've got on their hands is a double homicide. They're looking for somebody who's murdered two people. Don West: Sure. They have no information to the contrary at that point. Shawn Vincent: Well they certainly don't have the shooter making a self-defense claim at this point do they? Instead they ended up coming to pick him up the next morning. They're looking at him for a double homicide. It was shortly thereafter, according to press reports that it was clear that they were only looking at him for the murder of Epps. They figured out Walker was the cousin, but now he's got a real problem on his hands. Don West: Sure. In addition to fleeing or rather failing to report, he also as you mentioned if not I will, he hid the gun. Shawn Vincent: Yeah. Don West: Well the prosecutor looks at this stuff and screams “consciousness of guilt.” This isn't an innocent guy. This isn't a guy who well may have committed the intentional act of firing his gun into someone else resulting in their death, is thinking that he did something wrong, so he is thinking that he better get out of there --  and then compounding that by thinking he'd better get rid of the evidence that might connect him to this. So Lee starts off with a couple of big strikes against him in putting forth a self-defense claim. Shawn Vincent: He does, but then he also starts out with this idea that he just watched his cousin be gunned down in the street by this guy who is still armed -- certainly capable and seemingly willing to turn the gun on him, on Lee. If you don't have the right to defend yourself in that situation, when do you have the right? That's what the CATO Institute thought. They actually wrote a brief, a friend of the court brief, and submitted it when this appeal was going on. They wanted the Supreme Court of North Carolina to consider their arguments which is essentially that. In a case where there's such clear violence happening right in front of you and you're next. If not then, when? is the real question. Don West: That's exactly right, Shawn, and I wasn't suggesting otherwise. What I was suggesting is that that explanation which seems to be corroborated by some physical evidence and ultimately maybe some additional testimonial evidence, took a while to get to the police because of the actions that Lee took immediately afterward that would raise questions about whether that explanation was in fact true or whether it was a story made up after the fact to claim self-defense. Shawn Vincent: That's what makes this case fascinating. From one perspective we have some really clear mistakes that were made that are going to weigh against him, but we also have on its surface what seems to be such an imminent and reasonable fear that you should have clear-cut self-defense. So with that set up, when we look at these cases, we call them on CCWSafe.com four elements of self-defense. Let's talk about those elements and you pointed out that these aren't legal elements. These aren't necessarily going to be talked about in a court of law, but in all the cases that we looked at these are things that are present and have a huge bearing on the decisions made and how they're interpreted. They're common to every self-defense case. Don West: Yes, that's exactly right, and they also can impact which laws might apply in a given situation and presumptions in favor of the use of deadly force. Shawn Vincent: Sure, so these four elements are location, escalation, reasonable fear, and post-incident actions. So let's start with location because these nine cases that we've explored, we've broke those up into three different groups. The first three that you and I looked at were home invasion cases, or cases where someone in their home confronted an intruder and shot and faced a challenge to their self-defense claim. The second three cases that we looked at were cases that happen in or around cars. A lot of them were considered "road rage" cases. Then we looked at three cases that took place not in your car, not in your home, but someplace in the public where the shooter had a legal right to be and that's where we are here with Gyrell Lee. He had every right to be in the street a couple doors down from his cousin's house on New Year's Eve. Don West: So legally, we're not claiming he was trespassing, not claiming he was committing any other crime. He was out there enjoying the rights as anyone else would have the right to in that particular situation. However, he perhaps doesn't have the same kind of protections that you might have if you are in your home and confronted with someone who intends violence or even to some degree in your car when confronted by someone who intends you harm. This case we're talking about now the location is particularly significant because it's not in any of those areas that might be extra protected in terms of the law favoring the person who uses self-defense force. Don West: In this case, everybody's got about the same standing. No one's defending their house, no one is in their car being attacked. These are guys out on the street each with the same right to be there. Shawn Vincent: Yeah, I want to elaborate on that because when we look at the Castle doctrine, it's pretty much understood in your heart and in the law that when you're in your home, there's no place that you have more of a right to be. There's no place where you'd be more justified to protect yourself with deadly force given the right scenarios right? Don West: Yes, and in fact, in virtually every state that I know of, you have extra protections if you're in your home where your actions are presumed lawful. Where the person who invades your home is presumed to intend you harm. So the imminence is assumed or presumed. The fear of great bodily harm or death is somewhat presumed and then if your actions are reasonable in that context, you enjoy a very high probability of your conduct being excused because of the location coupled with, of course, your conduct significantly very, very important -- but you have in a sense a leg up when you are trying to explain a self-defense scenario in your home. Shawn Vincent: Sure. Don West: The idea that your home is your castle. It's the safest place you can be and that's why the law never requires you to flee your home prior to defending yourself. Shawn Vincent: Sure. Then when we looked at the Ronald Gasser case out of Louisiana. Rob Gasser was in a road rage incident with what turned out to be Joe McKnight, a famous football player. We know that in Louisiana, they specifically mention the car in their laws that if someone crosses that threshold of an open window or the door of the car uninvited, you're specifically on more solid ground than otherwise. Similar to the Castle doctrine, it applies to the car. It's not quite as strong, but it's called out specifically by the law. Don West: Yeah there's typically a stature in place that extends some of the protections you would have in your home to the workplace and the car. Shawn Vincent: Right. So you have more of a right to be in your car than somebody else. Especially someone uninvited, and I think that's the idea of this “more of a right to be there” because, like what you're saying, once they've gone out onto a neighborhood street, nobody has more of a right to be there than anyone else. Now in North Carolina, they've got their version of the stand your ground law there which takes away any duty to retreat, and that's where Gyrell Lee stands. So he's legally protected to not have to run away from this fight, but unlike being in his home or in his car he doesn't have more of a right to be there than Epps did. Which isn't a legal standard, but this is something that juries are going to look at. This is something investigators will look at right? Don West: I agree that they will, and ultimately the jury -- after the case has been filtered through the eyes of law enforcement and then the prosecutor's office and finally gets to the jury -- they're going to look at whether in the total circumstances the accused’s behavior was reasonable, and I think all of that factors in. In fact, I think that that's a point of this case in fact is the reasonableness of what Gyrell Lee did in the context of the prosecutor's argument. Let me just take a second to emphasize and just to reinforce the idea that under common law, the Castle doctrine typically protects people in their home from having to flee. All stand your ground does is simply extend that notion to other places and it's typically any place that you have the right to be. It doesn't change the other elements of self-defense. It doesn't lower the imminence of the threat or serious bodily harm or death. It doesn't change the proportionality of force that's used. All it does is not require you to flee or to retreat prior to using force. Don West: There still are a number of states in the country that require a duty to retreat prior to using deadly force. I think the stand your ground states, though, now are in excess of half where you if otherwise faced with an imminent threat of great bodily harm or death under circumstances where you'd have the right to use deadly force in response to that threat, you do not have to look for and take any opportunity to escape first. Of course legally, that means there's one less thing for the accused to worry about in trial that a jury could find that even though they had the right to defend themselves, they missed an opportunity to flee and therefore, nonetheless, they're still guilty of some degree of murder. Shawn Vincent: Well sure, and that makes this a good time to talk about this element of this case and that's that the prosecutor did suggest to the jury that a reasonable person in Lee's shoes would have run away from the situation and perhaps should have. So when this goes on appeal, add to it that the agreed upon jury instruction that the judge gave to the jury left out that part of that stand your ground law. Don West: Yes it's somewhat complicated and I won't try to explain some of the nuances of the law because the effect of these arguments are so clear and the impact on the jury can be so profound that when the trial judge failed to instruct the jury on North Carolina's existing stand your ground law meaning no duty to retreat, the prosecutor was able, through the arguments, to in effect exploit that. I don't know that she was accused of doing anything unethically, but she did clearly emphasize under this umbrella of reasonableness that it was unreasonable for Lee to use deadly force in that scenario instead of trying to get away. When the jury was not instructed by the judge that in fact Lee had no duty to retreat, then the prosecutor was able not just to make that point, but there was no clear rebuttal by the law. The judge is compelled to instruct the jury on the appropriate law for the case. By failing to directly instruct the jury that there was no duty to retreat, then I think ultimately, and we'll talk about the procedural sequence, ultimately it was concluded that Lee did not get a fair trial. Shawn Vincent: Sure, the Supreme Court says that- Don West: The case was reversed. Shawn Vincent: The Supreme Court says that it's very likely he could have gotten a different result from the trial. Don West: Yeah, the standard's going to be a reasonable possibility of a different outcome, and that's another way of saying that there was the risk of prejudice. They weren't saying that he would've necessarily been acquitted, and I don't think anywhere would you find them expressing an opinion that they didn't think that Gyrell Lee could be guilty of this crime, but they basically said the jury wasn't instructed properly and without the proper instructions, there's a reasonable possibility that the outcome would have been different had they been properly instructed. Shawn Vincent: So we talked about location. Let's talk about escalation, and this is the part where I think very often we have some of the strongest lessons for concealed carriers because I like to talk about when the moment comes, and it's a life or death decision that you have to make in a split second, nobody's going to have the time to go through all these podcasts that we've made and all the lessons that we've written about and check off all the boxes to know if they're justified or not. Right? There's usually a decision before that decision to pull the trigger where you do have the time to really think about the situation that you're in or you're getting yourself into and that is covered by this escalation, de-escalation umbrella. Shawn Vincent: I'm going to say that the Gyrell Lee case, that the decision before the decision was when based with this escalating threat from Epps. Instead of saying, “Hey let's take this party inside,” or “Hey, you know what, let's go over to my house and do this,” He decided instead to stay outside -- which he had every right to do of course -- and go get his gun which, again, he had every right to do, but once he got that gun and made that choice to stay outside where we knew that another confrontation with Epps was likely, he opened the door to the armed confrontation that followed. Don West: Well, you know Shawn, that's an excellent point, and I made the comment early at the beginning of this podcast how the legal decisions and the legal consequences meaning guilty to not guilty in a self-defense incident are often just a matter of a few seconds, and that's what the court said in this case. That their assessment of whether Lee acted legally, or the jury's assessment, is really just a few seconds -- but that doesn't mean that the context isn't important and critically important for those that have taken on this awesome responsibility of carrying a gun that there aren't clear moments and markers along the way where something could have derailed what looked like a train to disaster. Clear heads, calmer heads prevail, and pretty soon something happens that changes the entire course of this. A lot of those decisions, including the ones that Lee made or didn't make and the others, would not have been doing something illegal or legal. It's really just a question of judgment and opportunity and seeing the big picture. Don West: We've already talked about lots of cases where there were clear moments where something could've changed that would have had a dramatic impact on the outcome. I’m thinking of the Michael Dunn case in Jacksonville. The so-called loud music case. Shawn Vincent: Right. Don West: Even the George Zimmerman, Trayvon Martin thing. There’s been volumes and hours of things written and talked about in terms of what led up to the incident and frankly there were lots of opportunities for both George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin to change the course of what seemed to be inevitable, frankly. The actual legal analysis of whether George Zimmerman was guilty of murder is really distilled to just 40 or 50 seconds -- or even less. Probably as little as five or 10 seconds depending on the evidence that you focus on, and yet that case has been known for all of these bad decisions that somehow got translated into illegal conduct, and virtually none of the stuff was illegal. It was just some bad decision making by both individuals along the way. Shawn Vincent: So let's talk about that because I think that is an important distinction. Was it legal for Lee to be hanging out at his cousin's house on New Year's Eve? Yes. Don West: Of course, yeah. Shawn Vincent: Outside of his home, his cousin's home, where he was a welcome relative, he certainly had a great right to be there. Was it illegal for Lee to get his gun? No. He's a licensed concealed carrier. He was doing it legally and properly. Was it illegal for him to go down the street and meet with Epps who had been tormenting them all night? No. I mean it's a public street. It's his neighborhood. It's his cousin's neighborhood anyway. He absolutely had a right to be there, but I guess what I want listeners to think about is, we've seen so many of these situations where people well within their rights to behave the way they did -- it just wasn't necessarily responsible behavior for someone who carried in his pocket, essentially, the ultimate conflict ender. The power of life and death over this person that they're having a conflict with. Don West: Well there's a level of maturity and, frankly, a level of humility that enters into that decision. We often say you have to be the calmest guy in the room. You have to be the one that's willing to take the guff. You have to be the one that's willing to be insulted and walk away from it rather than resorting to the gun, and I think this is a situation where it sounds like there were some prideful moments and some macho stuff going on where there were opportunities for Walker and Epps to discontinue what they were doing. I mean Walker and Epps were arguing and ultimately Epps shot and killed him. That stinks. That sucks for Walker, and ultimately Epps, because that's what ultimately prompted Lee to get his gun out and prepared to shoot Epps. He just missed his chance when Epps was going after his cousin and then when he turned the gun on him. I think everyone would agree at that point he had no choice. He was facing a gun within a few feet, and he never had an opportunity that I can see in these facts to get away at that point. Don West: Now he had an opportunity maybe earlier if he chose to, but at the moment when he was facing the gun there was no response I could see other than him using his own gun to defend himself. Do you see it any different? Shawn Vincent: You've walked us right into this third element which is reasonable fear. You told me many times, legally, the justification for deadly force requires that you are reasonably fear an imminent threat of death or great bodily injury. Is that right? Don West: Yes. Shawn Vincent: So here you see a guy who's just witnessed his cousin being shot down in the street. Epps the man who shot him, is still armed. He turns the gun on him. That's a “right now” decision, right? That's imminent if I've ever heard of imminent before. Don West: Well, if somebody has a gun and you already know they're willing to fire it, and have fired it, you know the guns works, and you know that if they're facing you and decide to pull that trigger that it's over for you: that is the textbook definition of deadly force. It is clearly imminent at that point and yes, that's a textbook example of when you would have the right to use lethal force in response. Shawn Vincent: Sure, and I think even because duty to retreat came up here in this case because the prosecutor suggested that a reasonable person would have retreated, and because they're in a stand your ground state where he does not have the duty to retreat. I mean even if he wasn't in a stand your ground state, well how's he going to get away here? I mean, he's in the middle of the street. Is he going to turn his back and run on this guy and leave himself exposed to the fire? I don't see how you get out of that. Don West: That's a good point as a side issue. Where there is a legal duty to retreat, retreat is only required if it can be done safely without increasing the risk to yourself or others. So even under those facts, if you start telescoping it to just those seconds when Epps was turning to Lee, and Lee had that moment and that moment only to decide whether to defend himself or not -- there was no opportunity to retreat. He couldn't have physically done it, and therefore, even in a duty to retreat jurisdiction, he would not have been required to do that because it clearly would've increased his danger had he turned his back to run. He would've been even more of a target, I think. Shawn Vincent: Sure. So before we get to these post-incident actions, I want to talk about this concept that we discuss every once in a while called “every shot counts.” We know that Lee fired eight rounds at Epps, and the prosecutor presented some evidence at trial -- and this is the evidence that you mentioned earlier in the podcast -- that the jury asked to see during deliberations. This evidence was a divot in the pavement under Epps's body. The suggestion is that Lee fired a round, at least one round into Epps's prone body that went through his body and made a mark on the pavement underneath. The suggestion being that he was trying to kill him. He wasn't just trying to stop a threat. How do you interpret that? Don West: There's a couple of ways to look at that and analyze it. If you take it simply on that basis that Epps was on the ground and you assume from the way the prosecutor argued this, that she was claiming that not only was he on the ground, but he was no longer a threat. Either he was incapable of firing the gun or he'd dropped the gun. The inference is that he's already on the pavement, no longer a threat and that Lee fired at least one more shot after Epps was no longer a threat. So therefore, there is no legal claim that that last shot could have been in self-defense. That's what pretty quickly morphs a lawful self-defense shooting into some sort of criminal homicide. That's the Goldilocks idea. You can't shoot too soon, you can't shoot too late. It has to be just right. Shawn Vincent: It has to be just right. Don West: If the prosecutor was arguing effectively that he shot him more times and later than he could justify because of the threat, then he's now committed a criminal act which would, if you think about it, how horrible is that to successfully defend yourself against a clear lethal threat only to convert into a murder because you are angry or revengeful or what have you? That's one of those things where it's all there except for that little bit too much. I was hesitant to offer too much of an explanation there because we're assuming that's what the prosecutor argued, and I think that's what she did, and the jury may have really been impacted by that since they wanted to see the evidence again on that divot, but that would be a ripe opportunity I would think for the defense to offer some expert analysis. There'd be all sorts of aspects of that which perhaps there could be some light shed by experts. Contrary to what most people see on TV and in the movies, when someone is shot, they don't fly back two or three feet. They don't immediately hit the ground. Shawn Vincent: They don't fall off a church steeple. Yeah. Don West: Yeah, yeah. So you've got someone unless they are hit, not to be too graphic, but unless they are hit in the head and die instantly and are incapable of movement, someone who's shot in the torso or anywhere other than the head is likely to be able to move --  and sometimes move a lot unti -- Shawn Vincent: Well, case and point here, Walker was shot multiple times and he was able to run away and hide behind a house where he died. Don West: Yes. So that's why an expert might come in and say look because of the nature of this guy's injuries, he was still able to fully function for 10 or 15 seconds. Which of course is an eternity if you're facing somebody with a gun. So it was a nice attempt by the prosecutor to use that evidence to try to climb into Lee's head to claim that here's where the malicious intent, and here's where the criminal act took place, but this thing happens so fast you just don't know. That's a shame isn't it if that was exploited, but it wasn't in fact true. Shawn Vincent: Rebutted. Yeah. Don West: Yeah. Of course any experienced gun operator, certainly law enforcement and military know that these are very fluid and dynamic situations where you don't see the immediate effect of shot one as you're preparing to fire shot two. So the idea that there were eight shots sounds like a lot, and maybe there's a plausible argument that it was too many, but not necessarily. Especially if they were all clustered together and Epps still seemed to be capable and ready to fire himself. Shawn Vincent: We talked about the choice before the choice, and so, shy of Lee going to get his gun, which he had every right to do legally, the biggest mistake he makes here is after the shooting. We explained earlier that everyone fled the scene including Lee. He went and hid his gun under a garbage can. He failed to report it to the authorities and we know that the cops were looking at a double homicide when they picked him up the next day. You quoted a legal term about how that could be interpreted, that fact. Don West: Oh, yeah. Earlier I said consciousness of guilt. Shawn Vincent: Consciousness of guilt. So essentially suggesting that he's acting not in the way somebody who used justifiable self-defense would act. He's acting like somebody who committed a murder. Don West: That's the inference to be drawn by somebody who flees, fails to remain on the scene, fails to report, hides evidence. I'm not so sure that fleeing isn't easier to explain than hiding the gun. I don't have any more facts than you do about where he got the gun, but we do know he was legally allowed to have it, so I'm going to assume it was a legal gun for him. It sounds like he simply panicked and, as a result of that, made some pretty bad decisions. Decisions, again, that were able to be exploited by the prosecutor to suggest that this wasn't self-defense. This was in fact a criminal act. So we've already talked about a couple of things that the prosecutor had to try to convert what seems to be a lawful self-defense shooting into a criminal act. We have this notion of the divot under the body that would suggest too many shots, even if it was otherwise lawful. Don West: Then you've got the fleeing and the hiding of the evidence to suggest that, since the ultimate path of a self-defense case is to get between the ears and into the head of the person who's on trial, since the measure of the jury is whether the person acted reasonably, the jury has to figure out what the person was thinking and why and was it reasonable to conclude that they were facing this imminent threat and had to respond accordingly. So anything that you do that disrupts that or that causes the reasonableness of your conduct to be questioned is a clear disadvantage. Shawn Vincent: Sure and you were talking earlier about when the Supreme Court in North Carolina looked at this, they were looking at just those few seconds where he pulled the trigger right? Don West: That's what they looked at, exactly. Shawn Vincent: They're not looking at what happened before. They're not looking at what happened after. The suggestion is that maybe they get a different result if they go to trial and say give the proper jury instruction on here. The way I'm looking at this, if we look at these four elements, location: he had the right to be there. The law in North Carolina was on his side regarding him not having the duty to retreat. The Supreme Court reiterated that in their decision. We go to escalation. Here he made a number of mistakes. He allowed this repeated verbal confrontation to escalate to violence, and he armed himself for it when he could've made other decisions that would've eliminated the potential for this violent confrontation. Don West: Yeah, let's talk about the escalation just a little bit more to put it in context. That's not necessarily doing something that was illegal. Escalation isn't the same thing as provocation or being the initial aggressor which can have significant effects on one's right to use self-defense force. Shawn Vincent: Sure. Don West: We're talking about more tactics, common sense, missing opportunities to avoid the whole thing. Shawn Vincent: Right, and what I want concealed carriers to take away from a story like this is to take those opportunities to de-escalate, to avoid a confrontation when they come. If you have that call or that thought that I need to go get my gun, that's the moment to stop and think about how important is it to defend my right to party outside of my cousin's house on New Year's Eve? Is that worth getting into a gunfight over? Don West: Shawn, I don't know since we weren't there, whether there was a clear opportunity for Lee to get Walker away as well. It sounded like it. It sounded like there were lots of times when the whole confrontation could've been avoided by Lee getting Walker and saying let's get away from this guy, he's crazy or he just wants to fight, or anything that would have initially separated Walker and Epps would then have prevented Walker's death and ultimately would have prevented Lee from getting into it and having to shoot and kill Epps to save himself. So this thing went sour pretty early when you start looking at Walker and Epps being what initiated ultimately the confrontation between Epps and Lee. Shawn Vincent: I guess what I'm leading up to here, Don, is if we take that snapshot of just that reasonable fear right after the cousin's shot and the gun's turned on him -- that few seconds that the Supreme Court that's all they're looking at -- that's real clear-cut, and without making a decision about being on his side, it feels like they're on his side here. This case is almost an example of how can you take such a clear-cut justifiable use of force and ruin it with your behavior before and after the shooting. Don West: Well, thanks Shawn. It's a pleasure talking with you. I enjoy just hearing how you think sometimes. We often work with a fairly sketchy outline. We have a lot of filling in the blanks to do, and I think that the two of us do a pretty good job at distilling important issues, not just for these cases, but that turn out to be pretty good thinking points for our listeners and those members and future members of CCW Safe that have decided to be responsible gun owners and responsible in carrying their firearm, and can -- by visualizing and listening and learning, understanding the legal boundaries --  can not only be prepared to save their life and their loved ones, but be prepared to avoid the nightmare situation that so many wind up in that we feature in our ongoing podcast, In Self-Defense. Thanks Shawn, I'm Don West, National Trial Counsel for CCW Safe. Shawn, thanks as always and I'll talk to you next time. Shawn Vincent: I'll talk to you soon.

Ever look for something that you cant find? --- Even though its RIGHT THERE in front of your eyes? --- welcome to the world of Spiritual Connection...Its always Right there, but what does it take to have the eyes to see?

Hunters HD Gold is the Official Eye Wear of USPSA and Steel Challenge anecdotally I have seen their eyewear showing up all over competition shooting starting with where I first saw them at the PCC and Rimfire Championships. If you are aware of Hunters HD Gold odds are you have met my guest Brian Conley. Speaker 1: [inaudible].  Speaker 2: Hey everybody, and welcome back to the Cindy cast on this episode we've got Brian Connolly from hunter's HD gold. They're the official eyewear of USPSA and still challenged. And anecdotally I've been seeing their eyewear showing up all over competition shooting, starting with where I saw them first at the piece of seat and rimfire championships. If you're aware of hunter's HC gold, odds are you've met Brian.  Speaker 3: He's joining us now. How are you doing Brian? Hey, what's going on? Gosh, it's been a, it's been too long since we've been in the dirt together. It's been over a year at this point. It has and I'm have not been back to, um, where we met and um, it, Lucas all arranged so far yet this year. That was a pretty long ago. Yeah. I mean, just to be straight, I don't think anybody has, I mean, I went there twice last year, so I'm not missing, I logged 21 days in that house last year. Well, I never got the pleasure of I'm staying in the house. I had to drive to Warsaw every day, so I got it. Yeah, it's um,  Speaker 4: I, oh, sorry. I got my dog, Lucy here. Who is going to come here? Cool. Get in there. You're going to take a little break. Come on. Oh, you're all over my stuff and we're going to have to drop an edit in here. You're working loose Kendall up. There you go. All. Alright. She is a  Speaker 3: business associate and my secret lover, but um, she's a pain in the ass sometimes. All right, so here we go. So yeah, you know, Lucas, um, it's an interesting thing. They, um, you know, I was involved. So last year I was involved with um, strategic mash design and a couple of other companies that were doing major events and um, I got into it on the, well they wanted me to do media, which translated to, would you also do our prize tables? Wow. Yeah. So I did six last year and um, and then, you know, and it was, I learned a ton. It was totally worth the, the mental exercise. And at the same time, I don't think you'll see me doing that again. I can understand that. I actually had to, um, had the joy of walking a prize table for somebody this year when they weren't gonna be able to walk it.  Speaker 3: And I decided that was the first and last time I want to do that as well. So yeah, I definitely have my, I want to talk about prices with you a little bit cause you guys have been really gracious, but you also have kind of a spin on that that I really like. Um, so then we can talk about a little bit later in the cast as we get deeper into, um, hunter's ht gold specifically. But tell me before we do that a little bit about you, like you started out in insurance, is that what I've, I'm gathering, I've been in retail management since I was, um, 21. Okay. And I, I'm 48 now. Got It. I used to tell everybody I sold everything buddy insurance back. And then I had a friend of mine who was, um, owned an insurance company and he says, Hey, well go get your, go get your license and everything and this and this. He had a  Speaker 5: practice. He was starting up an insurance. I was like, well sure, why not? So 50 exams to the hardest test. I still keep those. I'm insurance licensed current today. He'd taking the ced seat CD be correct. Can't talk, taking the credits every two years to keep my license current in the state of Alabama. So I've got a backup plan. If I ever got to go back and sell insurance, I'm not going to lose my license cause I think now they're requiring a lot more to get your license and insurance, everything else. So every couple of years I walked back into a classroom and take eight hours of credits and um, fulfill those. But based on how everything is going now, I don't really think I'm gonna have to go back down that path. And You Thompson know you guys are having a great run and uh, well so tell me like how do you go from now you, you were born and raised in Alabama, right?  Speaker 5: Yeah, I was born in Tuscaloosa and in 92, um, moved up in Birmingham. I had been in Birmingham area every since. And, um, you know, I got, you know, like I said, I went to school and, um, at the university and, um, when in criminal justice and had a path set there for me but never really finished. Once I get into retail sales, um, got a call from the local police department that I was gonna go work for. And um, they tell me my starting salary, I think back there was going to be 16, five, and at that time in retail management as a young manager at 21 years old, I'd made I think 30 something thousand dollars. So I might've, I made a commitment in our decision and saying, well, I'm not gonna, um, turn around and look back. I can make this much more money and not get shot at.  Speaker 5: And, um, then that's kind of the path that shows every since I got that. And I would, I would imagine there's more than one human being that made that calculation in their lifetime between laundry is one of those things that, um, I've never been in a situation where I haven't had gainful employment based on being in that kind of environment. Had to change jobs a lot because in retail management, the way you may got a pay raise was getting recruited by somebody else certain or changing in a career path to sell something different. So, um, lots of, um, lots of training through that, through the years being able to go from different positions. I've managed and sold everything from, um, let me see, you know, video contents backward guy started in 92 selling big springs and camcorders and after five years that company closed up, they wrote about Tandy Corporation went to go manage your radio check and then I didn't like selling the parts that made the big screens when I was selling the big screen.  Speaker 5: So I got out of that and went to another type of sales. But I've managed everything from targets to the best buys to being in the wireless industry for multiple years. And then, um, then I was in of course like we just talked about selling them insurance with a, um, insurance agency. And then, um, my current wife's ex husband at the time, you know, called me about wanting to do their marketing and, um, stuff for the lab that I worked for now. Yeah. And, um, that was kind of an interesting blend, but we had a great working relationship and, um, started doing marketing in the lab business. So I went from the selling retail to, I'm talking directly to ophthalmologist, not Tom Matricis about how to, um, improve their sales in their field and quote unquote selling the accessories that were up. Because in the optical world, the essential, these are, you know, ars photochromics colors, tans, anything, you know, something besides just the normal thing that insurance is going to cover.  Speaker 5: And I did that for four years and then, um, got involved with, um, I'm all over the place. But then I got involved with, um, two other friends that were, one was a Napkin kinda strain. One was an older gentleman that I've known forever or 15 years now that was in the wireless industry. And we went together and bought some hunting property. And that was in back in, um, 2013. Um, place called triple forks hunting. We do executive hunts and stuff like that. So I had all these tools at the lab and I wanted to make myself a hunting lands and I wanted to, you know, something to enhance my hunting, you know, for what I was doing. Cause I had, um, prescription outwear and I kinda had all the, all the fun toys to play with at the lab to design something. And that's Kinda, you know, the beginnings of where I've got, you know, where I am now.  Speaker 5: So it really cool. So that's optical prescription lab, which is the, the lab, correct? That's correct. And incorrect. Triple fork hunting LLC was something you created in 2013 it looks like. Yup. Yup. That's correct. And that's where we basically, we didn't just want anybody with a hunting license and you know, a gun to come hunt. We wanted to open it up to corporations or a place for them to bring their employees and um, and really have a place to, you know, bond and um, team build based on the, you know, you know, to build the relationships with either their clients or their employees and works extremely well. And one of my business partners is still running that more. I'm not running it as much based on where hundreds HD go does that now. So I'm lane is really stepped up and made a difference for that, keeping it going on the side.  Speaker 5: So cool. I'm always curious about something. So you're, you're, I mean at this point, whether you intended to or not, you're heavily involved in the firearms industry. Um, and so, well you're not selling guns. You're definitely directly marketing to that group with both the hunting and the, the, the hunters HD gold. So did you grow up with guns? Did you, how'd you fall out? This is, my dad had guns and um, we always use, I mean, we used to only brought them out. Usually when we traveled, it was kind of the time he put the gun in the, you know, in the trunk. And we traveled to Texas to see his family and my mom's family in Fort Worth, you know, Dallas area. And that's how I remember about growing up with the guns that don't really have the history of out shooting guns myself. I just remember my dad would always take guns out there and trade with some relatives and stuff like that. Um, October of 2011, my, um, father passed away and we stayed with him the last two years of his life. I'm helping him. He died of, um, cancer and he was in a situation where, um,  Speaker 1: yeah,  Speaker 5: that's where I inherited, you know, seven guns that he wanted me to have guns. You know, why? Um, grandfather was the mayor of, um, Bessemer, Alabama for 18 years. So he had these guns that bought a shot, guns and um, all these 11 Remington, 11 hundreds that were, um, back from the fifties and sixties. And how all these pictures with, um, local, um, celebrities, we'll call it the, um, bear Bryant's and stuff like that of shooting these guns and out shooting together and doing a bunch of 'em dog hunting and stuff. So there's a lot of history with these guns that I inherited. And that's Kinda what got everything started. Cause every time I look at sharing, we're talking or something, I always like, you know, you realize your fathers, you know, started this back in 2011, just had no idea where I was going to go. Yes.  Speaker 5: So that kind of got me involved in, you know, collecting guns and um, and getting started there in 2011. And that's what caused me that, you know, back here in the, um, previous presidency where I was wanting to say anyway, he bought some property and, you know, I have a place to shoot this and train and you know, hot and, you know, and everything else that was being, you know, jeopardize back in the, um, the 2000, you know, late 2000. Yup. Years of that. And, um, that's kind of where everything got started. And then when I actually had a gentleman, when we were building the lake at, um, triple forks hunting and, um, had a gentleman, Marketo bulldozer, it, it was moving dirt for the lake and he comes up to me and goes, hey, I need you to get me some more of this wasp spray.  Speaker 5: Um, that looks like it's in Pelham, Alabama. And I was like going, Huh, it's in my backyard. Sure. I go and look into it. Yeah. And, um, so I took this can, it was, um, kind of rainbow wasp spray. So I took it to the building and um, had to be buzzed in. They weren't open to the public and I was like, I walked to the door and I was like, Hey, I want to buy this wash spray. And I'm like, well, we really don't sell to the public, but hold on one second. And they went back in the back and then gentleman came out and he was like, where'd you hear about this? And I want it just to go on a bulldozer and I'm no, Port Alabama handed it to me and said, you know, come get some. He goes, well, we really don't.  Speaker 5: Some of the public, you know, but, but however, you know, here's the icing on the land of Basaam and you know, so forth and I'll let my business card with you before it's hunting. And he gave me his, um, and um, I went off on my merry way and went online and ordered some. And um, then about, yes, about a week later, if not yet, not that long. Um, the one of the owners of Rainbow Technologies, Larry Joe steely junior called me up and says, you know, hey, I see that you have a hunting camp and, um, so forth and tell me about that. When did that process, and he actually booked a hunt with his brother and one of his employees to come out there during hunting season. And then, um, we become a cane. You know, Franz went after, did the hunt together in the early fall, late fall season when the hunting season was starting.  Speaker 5: And, um, he saw the lenses there that I had used. I'd made up some just some demo stuff there as you want to use tested with, um, you know, people that were coming to hunt. I'd already was testing the lens with some game wardens, stuff like that. You know, just trying to get their feedback and stuff cause I was made a lens that, you know, allowed me to see a lot earlier in the mornings to hunt and in the state of Alabama hunting hours of defined 30 minutes before sunrise and 30 minutes after sunset. These were actually bringing in enough light to be able to hunt during those hours when it's pretty dark. So having the hunting property, I'd already made friends with a bunch of the game wardens cause I wanted them to be, you know, the places, two hours from where I live. So I always wanted them around the property to be able to keep watching what was going on and gave them full rights to come out there anytime they wanted to.  Speaker 5: They saw some suspicious, you know, come hang out at the place and you know, using this, it's kind of your home base. So that met Larry and Larry come out there and did a hunt and he got me involved in them. He goes, you ever do any competitive shooting or anything? And I was like, no. And um, he was doing cowboy action shooting and not a time slap, you know, single action shooting to Saudi SAS. And he got me involved in that and I was pretty intrigued cause I always, you know, like I said, I was collecting guns that look like this was going to give me another reason to, um, to buy some more guns, which I was all about. So got my cowboy outfits together and um, we got me at, um, an 1873 navy arms of Winchester that had been ridden and um, couple of Ruger voke heroes that we'd set off to have tripped out.  Speaker 5: Um, stoker double barrel shotgun and I wish you can. Cowboy action shooting was a blast. And I've had these lenses I've made there and I'm using them. And couple of locals there were like, what are you wearing? It's awesome. And made Larry Joe some of course, and he was all about it. And Larry Joe steely, if you don't recognize that name, he's the gentleman that now alone still target paint. Oh Man. That's the correlation there. This is before still target pink was even created. Yes. So if this time, you know, he was telling me, you know, I'm thinking about making a paint for the steel targets, he saw a need there. And um, the locals were all kind of intrigued about what I'd done with these. Lindsay goes, I really think you got something here. You gotta to see what you can do with it. And I started getting more intrigued cause I was already, I was kind of, you know, thought about going down the hunting road and I was doing a couple of, I didn't do any shows.  Speaker 5: I was visiting a couple of 'em, you know, directs expos and stuff like that. Just trying to see what was going on and made it a couple of visits to shot show with, um, some of my friends that start arms, they're hearing best from Alabama, about 20 minutes away and became good friends with them. So I was, you know, intrigued in what was really happening around the lands and what kind of feedback I was going to get. So I went to shot show a couple of years before it was, um, anything just to see if anybody was offering something I'd already created in the lab and make sure I wasn't walking into something that was already there. So why create something that somebody else is already putting out there? And there's already a market that's already been exposed to it.  Speaker 5: Um, come to find out there was nobody that was putting a traffic's lands together with a photochromatic combination. And, um, so I was even more intrigued to see where this would really go. And then I guess about a year later, Larry Joe Staley Jr was running, you know, had his thing going with still target paint. And he had called me up and says, I think I found a way pressed again and the competitive shooting, I was like, what do you mean? You know, everybody, you know, Sass already knows about it locally. You talked about something that goes, no, no, I think it's something bigger. Even with this thing called steel challenge. He goes, he had met a, he had met a competitive shooter named Steve Foster out of Georgia and was thinking about putting a team together. And um,  Speaker 1: okay,  Speaker 5: he asked me if I wanted to, um, sponsor the team. I was like, well sure, what does that, what do you want? What do you want to do? He goes, well, I'm just very, we put them all in hunters, HD gold. Well I'll put a Jersey together and we'll get your, you know, logo on the Jersey. And I said, sure, why not? Sounds great. And um, that's Kinda how I got involved with, um, steel challenge. Really cool. Wow. Oh my goodness. An interesting, you know, why do you get into it? Cause I had no idea what I was doing and I was, you know, I knew what I was doing on the land side, but I had no idea what the, um, competitive shooters of steel challenged was. I knew about Calloway shooting cause I've been doing that for about, you know, six or eight months, you know, once or twice a weekend.  Speaker 5: And I had a lot of fun with that. I didn't really think it was going to go much farther. And I was focused on the hunting side. So we were already testing a lot of products at triple forks hunting. I was obtained up with, um, Pradco, they're here in Birmingham as well and they all, they all Moultrie summit on tree stands Code Blue Night and hell game calls a lot of other brands. Yeah, I had come pretty close with veil and still close with them. Today. I'm testing their products out in the field and I'm had a lot of those guys, you know, helping me. Um, did some testing with hunters HD going and having some other avenues with on the hunting side. You know, with, I'm trying to get a hundred HD go to see what kind of um,  Speaker 5: way I could break into the industry. You kind of see what that looks like with my, with my lenses, but I'm meeting, I'm stay, you foster kinda change that entire direction. I kind of told the hunters I'll be back with you later. This is something that's really happening now. And Steve Foster had actually told me that um, he was always finished in second and third and once he got a hold of the 160 go and he was actually finishing first, that's the only thing he changed. Found that kind of, you know, intriguing because I didn't realize, you know what, I was really opening up to the competitive shooters to find them a shooting at vantage. I knew we had one in cowboy action shooting, but the targets are a lot closer and there's not much distance involved. It was just about more of transitioning and being able to work a leap or action and reloading your shotgun fast regardless,  Speaker 3: regardless of the platform, regardless of the game. I think Jerry Mitchell, he says it best is like you can see it fast, you can shoot it fast.  Speaker 5: Yup. And that's what [inaudible] when we were thinking about slogans, we were going through that, my wife and um, we were going back and forth cause one of the things she said is you can only shoot as fast as you can. See that's what it is. That's what it is. She always wants to put something together with the lenses being able to change in the eye. And she actually came up with a slogan as well. They changed so you don't have to. So that was kind of, you know, that kind of told a story about you know, the land without, you know, getting too much into it just because I have a lot of people would still walk up to the tent today when I traveled and I go, what is this? They changed it. I'll have to, and it just opens up the story. So it's working real well.  Speaker 3: That's really good. Well, okay, this is like, you just opened up like a bout a thousand conversations. Okay, good. So first thing I want to say is, is I've been, I've been in the firearms industry now for Ah, well, let's see. I've been really engaged as a consumer for about seven or eight years now and I've been engaged as a service provider for let's say five or six of those years. And I can't tell you how many people stumble into their careers. Like I just was looking for something for myself that worked better. Alex gun works. Great example. That guy just wanted a gun that worked better for himself, made a gun work great, kept making him. Um, you know, I'm here, I hear this over and over and it's really interesting to me how few people in the modern games are, um, on the gaming side of things.  Speaker 3: Uh, started with hunting and started a lot. I mean like, you know, you and I both grew up, like I didn't grow up around guns and sound like you, you know, you had him in the House, dad had him, but no, it wasn't like you grew up shooting every weekend or he lived on the farm shooting all the time. Um, and just how many people have like really who have really advanced the sports significantly come from like a whole different world of um, you know, uh, firearms used to saw post 18, you know, um, it's fascinating. But let's do this. I um, so when you were starting to develop this lens, so let's just explain this to those who you know, I'll give the simpleton. So for those of you who aren't watching this on video or you've never seen 180 gold lens is a essentially a very bright yellow lens, not unlike what you've seen in inexpensive, um, lenses.  Speaker 3: Like, if you just saw somebody walking by, you know, you find that like you buy the three pack, there's the smoke, there's the red and there's the yellow and you throw away the yellow and you take the smoke and the red with you out to the right, you know? Um, and so it looked kind of like that, but then you put them on and instead of it just liking everything, like super vivid and uncomfortable. Cause when I wear yellow lenses, I'm just like, I mean it's just like I'm being assaulted by light. I don't like it. You put these on and it takes a second. Especially if you haven't worn them before and then you sort of like, I don't know, you're like relax into this. Just sort of flow a light into your eyes all day. And what you don't notice is they're photochromatic so they're adjusting and the amount of light they're letting in based on the conditions outside, which is something like, you know, if he told me his photochromatic I immediately would be thinking of my brother's like 1978, you know, a glasses that he wore that were just not cool by even 1978 standards does that.  Speaker 3: But as a shooter, as a competitor outside all day long and all kinds of different light, you know, light's always changing and you're either switching lenses all day long or your, you know, you could wear these and they give you that all day sense. And I, I use them all the time. Um, I have them, I mix them with a couple of other things and I want to talk about that with you in a second. Cause I've recently gotten into this tactical games thing and um, I think I need a specific set of la or like frame for that. I got it. I'll talk to you about that, maybe offline, but like, um, cause I've got, I w you know, you made me, you gave me a set of the archers right away, the day that we were out there and um, at, I think that was PCC championships, there's a PCC roll championship.  Speaker 3: Give you a pair of orange shoes to wear around. I wore, Oh man, I wore them all. I wore them for the two days of the event. And see for me the biggest issue I have is I'm always transitioning back and forth between shooting the guns and dealing with cameras and electronics when all that kind of stuff. So like I'm changing things now. My eyes have gotten a little a showing off my, you know, readers right now, but my eyes in the last couple of years have significantly, um, diminished and quality. But I'm, I'm always switching back and forth between glasses, between what I'm shooting with when I'm working with, you know, polarized glasses, make my screen look like crap. Um, you know, there's a lot, whatever you go back and forth. So like I where it's just become kind of a thing for me. I've always got three or four pairs when I'm going to shoot and do cameras.  Speaker 3: I always just wear the eight hundreds HD gold now cause they just worked perfectly for both. Um, and the only negative is occasionally I've got to flip them up so that I can like make sure my color balance is correct before I start filming something. I have on a couple of occasions gotten an under saturated shot cause my lenses were exaggerating the Co, you know, so much the color richness. So, um, and I just, so I use them all the time and you've got a couple of friends here up in town now. Like A, Dustin Sanchez is one who is wearing your lens now and um, and they're released. We made him a pair of custom pair as well. Yeah, I know. I know we're all were us three gunners or a bunch of premadonnas or like I can't possibly wear  Speaker 5: in shooting sports offhand. That I think I learned that the hard way at the PC works with PCC world championship and everybody goes, Oh, all righty.  Speaker 3: Yeah. Well look, I mean, and I, you and I had a pretty cool interview. If you go to the huck origins youtube channel, there's an interview of the two of us that I did, um, at the PCC champion. No rimfire we met at PCC, but we did that when it rimfire and I'd had some experience then with your lens and that's when you made me the ones in the Oakleys. I was like, I love these lenses. I don't like the frames. Okay. Whatever. So, and we've had this conversation, we don't need to rehash this, but um, so you made me a set of Oakleys I took a set up. Yeah. I think I took a set out of my car and sent him with you. And you made a set of Oakleys for me with these lenses. And those were the ones that were, I mean, I literally wear 'em all the time.  Speaker 3: That where I'm driving around I where I'm there, they're kind of my constant rotation. If I'm wearing black boots, I'm wearing my hunters h g gold for wearing brown boots. I'm probably still wearing my Oakleys, but you know, so, um, so that's Kinda like I'm a pretty simple guy. It's like my glasses go with my boots. Um, but, um, and then I wear them, you know, all summer. I am also setting up matches I'm doing. And then I shoot the match and they work all day for all of that. And we run right up until nine o'clock here in Minnesota, which this time of year we're getting to the point where it's almost dark and I'm not switching to clears, which is just huge. Um, I can't, I wouldn't tell you if there's an advantage per se, um, in my shooting, but I'm not at the level where like any, especially any more where like you, I would notice such a subtle difference.  Speaker 3: Right. You know, not, not a hundred thought at first place, you know. Um, and so, but I will say that just from a personal comfort level, they're fantastic. And then I wear 'em all the way home in the car because I have like a blue light thing. It's like I tried to get my s I'm really conscious of my sleep and um, and they block some of the blue light from my car all the way home, but I could still see and drive and they blocked glare. So they just kind of cover me from the moment I leave the house till the moment I come home and I never, the glass is just managing that. So that's kind of like the layman's term of what they're doing. But I'm curious from your standpoint, like what was the design philosophy like? I mean, I know you tried a bunch of different things, but what did you finally end up with? Well, there was a lens that came out  Speaker 5: how many years ago? Back in the light, I guess early two thousands and then went through the probably 2010 or left. And that was a, um, company that had put out a actual actual shooting and hunting lands that had been discontinued. And that gave me an idea where to start at, because when I was talking to my wife about what I wanted to do, she goes, I think there's already something like this out there. I said, well, why is it not being, you know, talked about? And she was like, well, doctors don't, the aren't talking about it because they aren't asking their patients lifestyle questions. They're just trying to get through as a general thing. They're just trying to get through and do the eye exams and try to control what insurance is going to pay him. But they're not selling multiple pairs of glasses. Right. And that's something we deal with every day still today in the optical industry.  Speaker 5: You know, trying to get doctors to talk about more lapdog questions. Because when you get into people's, you know, what they do besides, you know, just going to work every day, you know, they need glasses for different things that they do. And if you're on a computer all day, there's a computer lands. If you're playing golf, there's a golfing lens. If you need no shooting and hunting, we now know there's a hunting lands. If you are driving, there's a driving lens that helps out for different things. And I'm fishing of course you need Polaroid polarized lenses and fishing and you need prescription polarized lenses and you know, you can find that by actually talking to people. And that's what I kind of brought to the optimum industry with all my years of experience in retail was qualifying a customer to really, you know, talk to them and find out what other needs they may have than just needing quote unquote glasses.  Speaker 5: And that's what gave me the idea of running into so many different things, whether it be with a hunting lands, because you know there's a lake, I don't know how much you want to remember. I'd probably do somewhere, but going through all the R and d of the one away lenses that this thing I'll work cause I know work. Yes, I like this, but no I don't like this. And then, you know, we, we threw away a lot trying to find the right combination of what we wanted to do and, or what we wanted to accomplish and what we wanted to accomplish was, um, one, we knew that the base of being tribex was superior to plastic or polycarbonate hands down because tribex by itself is lighter and stronger than plastic or polycarbonate, and also allows 43% more light to pass through the lens than polycarbon now.  Speaker 5: Okay. Wow. We knew the only other optics that are better than tribex is glass. And we didn't want to have glass anywhere around any including my own, anywhere near around our eyes as something catastrophic happen because glass, you know, shards and just is a disaster for your eyes. Yeah. That's not that dog will hunt. But believe it or not, I still see people wearing Kostas every day when they go shooting. And that's just, you know, I like coach. I, there's that role with that coach is a great brand. So [inaudible] jams. There's a lot of great brands out there in the [inaudible] industry, but those are fishing glasses. And that's how they marketed. But people still use them today because they want the, you know, the big C on there, you know, they're on their truck when they go hunting. That's just part of it. Totally. But if you stand around any three gun match, you rimfire match anything where the steels be in shot, you're going to eventually end up a wipe and blood off your face from a frat.  Speaker 5: Yeah, exactly. And when I went to my, when I went to Sherri and I said, this is where I'm wanting to go with this, I really think I've got something. And um, she goes, well, where the hell is our liability? I'm not taking a company. We started back in 1977 and gets screwed up or something. We just coming up with and I was like, oh, well that makes sense. I said, hell no, I'll get back with you. So about two days later, I got back with it. I said, I figured it out. We're gonna do everything. And um, OSHA safety frames and all the lenses. We're going to do an ansi standard 2015 cause most of the cyclins that are out there, only 2000, three, 2010 and we're going to take it all we 2015 and she says, well get me the OSHA certificate and you can go from there.  Speaker 5: And um, about six months later I got everything approved going through a lot, some more trials and this working and not working and paying a lot of money to have a bunch of lenses come back to me and didn't pass and trying to figure out why and put other coatings together and other solutions together to finally get the certificate. And um, we move forward at that point. And that's what informed the original selection of frames. Correct. Is the ocean rating. That's, you know, that's why we have the frames we have, cause they're all Ziad, seven plus one and z 87 plus two for prescriptions. And that's the difference than our frames are. And you should have saw the frames that were out when we first got started. We'd come along on frames because you know, there's no such thing as a sexy safety frame. And now wife to this day still hates these frames as a huddle.  Speaker 5: And the new velocity that we just came out with was another frame style that finally came out that we worked with the manufacturer to get some that were listening to us to try to get some things like we want. And that's kind of where we're at now. And I've got some, still have some frame manufacturers I'm working with up in New York area that are, you know, tried to design more and more stuff. That is, I'm quote unquote getting more of a more photo friendly. Here's your commitment. Those to stay OSHA approved with all of your frames. It is okay. And the reason being is is it's about safety. We're talking about safety, we're talking about protecting the only two eyes you're gonna have period. And you know, do we have some stuff out there? What? You've got one that's not us framing. We have the conversation, it's got the same properties, it's got the same thickness, it's got the same everything. But you've got to remember, I can't put an anti rated frame and a non safety frame. So conversation I have with you, you got the same thing. It just doesn't have the Ansi markings. Correct. It won't, you know, based on what OSHA has put in front of us, it will not, you know, provide the same protection. But conversation is, is this the same thickness as the same everything you know, it should, you know, just don't have the same, you know, Angie ratings on, yeah.  Speaker 3: So does that, does that make it impossible to have a, a lens that has no w you know, sorry I say this better. Does that make it impossible to create an OSHA rated lens that doesn't have any frame around like the bottom half for example?  Speaker 5: Not at all. There's one thing about it, there's not an interchangeable lands out there that is OSHA approved. I got now. Now that was saying that we are working on some things now on a model that's going to roll out if everything still goes as planned in January of 2020 yeah. So we have been, we've got some things in testing. We're still waiting to get some stuff back from, um, the writings. But there is that OSHA approved, you know, rimless frame that we are working on. That's going to be a game changer for almost to get into the shotgun world more. And also to get in a situation where we can deliver what you and all the other shooters you're telling me, you know, hey, what can we do to get nothing at the bottom? What can we do to get nothing, you know, there, so we're working on that.  Speaker 5: Um, that's gonna be a whole different, um, level of taking it to the next level for hunters HD because one of those things that's going to be, you know, we've still got to worry about the, um, the safety, but we're trying to listen very diligently to every, you know, shooter we can to get the feedback. Cause when I do demo days, I do it for two reasons. One is to go out there and use the Lens, you know, I know what they're going to like about it, but I want to, I want to hear more from the shooters that don't like it. Yes. Can I tell them that? Because if this is where I can take the brand in the future, does it mean it's going to happen tomorrow? No, but if I get enough feedback on a certain area, just like we were talking about now with rem lists, then guess what?  Speaker 5: The future is bright. We're going to have a rimless site, the frame going as planned. And when you talk about that then you're talking about different shapes and different things best. Let's make clear, it's not going to be just a one piece frame. We've talked about one piece lands, we talked about that before, that that's an injected molding process and it's all, you know, call the carpet. There's a lot of things there that, you know, we're limited to the blanks of the, of the, of the lands itself at 80 millimeters. You know, it's gonna have to still be two separate lenses, but it's going to be something that is going to be, you know, lighter and uh, keep the same strength as well.  Speaker 3: Well let me, let me dig into this a little bit cause this is like really interesting to me personally. And I, you know, and I don't know if others will enjoy it. And that's not really why I do this. Um, so, so really cool. So like I would say, you know, arguably, well first of all, there's, there's a lot of great conversations and I want to exclude a handful of things to begin with to make life really easy and fair for us to have a conversation. So, um, I let me say this anecdotally, I am standing at Ahrens and arms, which is an awesome gun shop here in town. We sell lots of high end equipment, lots of high end guns. If you want three gun gear, you're probably coming or USPSA gear, you're probably coming to us, right? And they'll, um, I can't tell you how many people are like, like, I mean, just like, uh, obsessing about the details between two or three, $2,000 optics for their rifle.  Speaker 3: And then they tell me that and I asked them what shooting glasses they're wearing and they're spending about $45 over the counter. And I'm like, ew, this doesn't matter. Get the cheapest thing possible. Cause you know, if you're not gonna look through a good lens. So we can, we're excluding everything in the, in the lower cost categories for the most part in this conversation. Right. And I say that because, you know, this is one thing about a hundred days she called. This is not an inexpensive lens, right? That's correct. Yeah. And so this is somebody who's looking for a very high end, very tailored lens specifically for what they're up to. Now you go into rim fire or steel challenge shooters, they're always living with a single focal point with their eyes or sh or directly through the glass and they're making small adjustments, right? They're not having to like calculate targets, you know, 90 degrees to their left in order to see where that's happening before they break a shot and move.  Speaker 3: Right? There's certainly not dealing with what we're dealing with, whether they're looking through the top of their eyes and the bottom of their eyes, depending on the angle up and down, they're dealing with [inaudible] long range rifle shooting. So, um, then we kind of get into like what's out there in the, you know, premium marketplace and really there's only a couple. And I would assume you hear a lot about Oakley in your world, right? Just cause the Oakley's the, um, the painless, you know, there's a lot of ranger arms, there's a lot of Nice stuff. Yeah. And they make two lenses. We specifically see a lot of in our world, which is the flax, which is a two lens interchangeable model. And then the tombstones, they have a couple of versions of the wraith and whatever. Um, and I have a set of the tombstones that I use.  Speaker 3: Those are my primary, if I'm doing lots of shooting on multiple angles at different, you know, targetry and all kinds of stuff, that's one of my go to lenses because it's lightweight wraps around the head and I've got completely unobscured vision anywhere. I might, you know, angle the gun short of like shooting down through my feet, which doesn't happen very often. Oh yeah, it has happened, but it doesn't have ever happened. That's usually a result of some sort of catastrophic mistake. On my part where now the only way that you can engage the target is on my back through my legs. Um, but that's a hasn't happened. It has. Um, and that's, I go to that Lens for that very specific reason. So big terrain matches lots of running, lots of open space. That's something I'm wearing. Um, that's the only other shooting lens that I wear besides the HD Gold's now.  Speaker 3: And, um, and so for me, that's the one thing about these glasses that I, you know, and even with my Oakleys, which are perfect, um, that's the one time that I don't wear them. And that's just because I just don't have the Mo. I mean those, I think the wraith and the, the tombstone line has got arguably the most field of view available without obstruction on the marketplace. So I'm not sure where I'm going with this other than to say like, how are you dealing with that? Um, cause you're, you're convincing three gunners, slowly but surely, I'm starting to see these things show up. Um, you know, obviously it's an objection you're dealing with. What is the conversation like around that?  Speaker 5: Um, take them to trial. Yeah. Really, really tight. Come and try him. Um, cause I, and I've had this conversation with some shooters, I won't mention their name, but because they are very, they do a lot of training and they're very specific in what they do. And I don't want to get involved in some detailed conversations. Yeah. When the, when you try them and you use them and you put yourself in a, and when I, I'll back up 20 seconds, I'll tell you, I'll tell them to take them with them off the stages. Yeah. Well the walk that, you know, they got to 10 minutes so I'll take, take them with the law at this stage. No, I can, when I did a lot of matches, especially three Golytely, they've all been championships. Nobody likes to change gear in the middle of the match. Correct.  Speaker 5: I get that they're already there. They're there to win. They'd been practicing. So take them and try and when you want the stage. And that's my soft approach to saying, put them on, see where the contrast is and when you walked the stages, you know, walk and see exactly what's happening when you move your head with these lenses. Um, come to find out with the new velocity that we have, um, that we just came out with in January for USPSA Ayers gives a lot wider view than people imagine with a smaller lands. And that's a little bit more wrap on it. But  Speaker 1: yeah,  Speaker 5: people are finding out, you know, when they, when they see me at the [inaudible] that can put them on, they're like, well I can see this. I can see that. Well of course you're not engaged in high heart rate, high situation, the timer's not going off and your focus is not where it needs to be, which is through your optics, where your sides, um, when this happens for lack of a better vision, for lack of better words, tunnel vision and your direct focus has taken over. Yup. You don't notice anything but what you're looking at and what's your end game? 100% I call alligator brain. There, there is transition period where you have to cut your eyes and be ready for the next target. But it doesn't really affect that either. On some of the frame styles we have, there are some, we had their closed off and that's, you know, it's not good.  Speaker 5: But I always tell people, you know, we have the discussion when I go to these matches, you know, they say, well, what's the difference? I was so, all the lenses are the exact same. So the only differences yet and what we're looking for in a frame, they pick this up. I'm like going, that's not gonna work. Try this one. And I'll put them in. I push towards the gauge, the aviator, um, for the, for the 70s, you know, look, or the either the velocity because I know the rat allows a lot more. Yes, you can get it. I have fun with all these, you know, [inaudible] it doesn't bother me when people say, well, I look like a, you know, an old, you know, seventies, you know, you know, porn star, it doesn't bother me. You know, it's not my fault. They have a mustache. That's right.  Speaker 5: But oh wait, we have a lot of fun with it. But truth be told, it's once we get past the vanity, which is not easy to do. I want, I want people to focus on the lens. And when people try and when they go out and use them, they're like, you know, they come back going, well I didn't notice any of the sides. You know, I don't want to look at somebody and say, well you're not gonna notice that when you shoot, cause I don't shoot myself. I just know based on what the eyeball does, I don't want to get in people's, you know, I not tell them what they're gonna say or how they're going to see it go track theirself. And I guess getting back to the answer, your question specifically is just go demo it for yourself. Go try it. Um, does it work every time?  Speaker 5: No, but I get the feedback I need where I can take it to the next level. And, um, when, you know, like I said, what's going to happen come January is going to be, you know, a lot of people coming back around and saying it's time for me to try it again. Well that's really good. So let's transition just a little bit. I mean the one thing I've really noticed cause I, I did a little dive on like the overall like um, know like I would for any company that solicited my business, the marketing firm, right. This is just do a little dive in like what, where you are, where you're out there in the digital space and all that. And you know, I mean you have a decent presence on several sites but I mean the main thing that you've seem to be doing is you're out there every weekend at the match, putting the glasses in people's hands.  Speaker 5: Is that the last year primary strategy for the company? It's, it's one of those things where when I talk to Sherry about it, I said I've got to go educate people on lenses and technology. You can't do that. You can, but nobody's going to just take the time to go to the benefits page 160 and go and study that. I mean, it's there, everything's there. But to be able to actually talk to somebody about it and actually say, well, why is it doing this compared to this? And I get to talk about the technology to people and educate when I go to these matches. I'm not, you know, this sounds crazy. I've been in, I've been in sales my whole life. I'm not there to just sale. I'm there to educate and build relationships. Yup. That's what it's all about. I've been doing, you know, I have so many people don't have some people walk up that are in sales saying, why didn't you ask for the order?  Speaker 5: I'm like going, they're not ready to buy yet. They're going to let you know. I can get, don't get me wrong, I can sell it better. I've been doing it all my life, but I go out there and I start selling and promoting and putting somebody in a position where they're going to go home and go, what the hell did I just buy? Right? Then you have buyer's remorse that for sure in the social media world that we live in today, you know, that can kill your writings real quick. You don't want that. And that's one reason why when I do demo days, there truly is no pressure. My job is to educate, let people experience it. And even on the prescription side, I actually make your prescription before you buy it and you get to demo with your prescription as well. There's nobody ever heard of this before, and my wife goes, you've lost your mind. I've got doctors that don't pay their bill. I said, you don't these shooters, myself being a shooter when I got started. Yep. The, we're different and we're not going to be known as that individually. We're not gonna be known as that guy or that person that didn't pay for something. And especially Zuni world. It's a very, it's a, it's an amazingly huge shooting world, but it's a small world when it comes to somebody doing something or not supposed to do  Speaker 3: blows me away. I, it's one thing, I mean obviously you've gotten to know a lot of shooters now and you've, you've come to a conclusion that um, that many do. I mean, I take a, I'm like the only game in Minnesota that'll take a credit card for a matching and I don't ask people to sign, which is obviously a, a liability from a business standpoint. Never even crossed my mind. I'm like, we don't, we don't  Speaker 5: either. It's just one of those things that, you know, I always have people ask me all the time, you know, especially I get a lot of emails and everybody goes, what's the warrant? I'm like going, well, what it a warranty warranty? A warranty is nothing but a state of mind. Correct? Correct. Okay. I've sold extended warranties to all the places I worked. I've sold warranties, I've sold, I've sold people a state of mind. And the reason being that there's no actual warranty listed on the website is because warranties don't have to really be curated until somebody take it takes advantage of something. Now let me tell you what I mean by that. My philosophy, when somebody catches a frag or something happens, they contact me. I'm just gonna replace the Lens. Yep. No questions asked. Um, if somebody sends me a pair of glasses that have had, um, I can, I can we say lenses every day by our doctors that returned stuff for warranty.  Speaker 5: It's where the manufacturer, we are the warranty. We handle everything. Yep. So seeing lenses come every day, I can tell when a lens has been abused. You know what I mean by abused is leaving it just on the dash your car in extreme heat, um, cleaning it, um, and causing scratches because of clean. Um, we see everything and that people try to put my people a lot smarter than me in the lab here. You know, we know how to identify things. So when I talk to people about, you know, cleaning, you know it with, they come with cleaning instructions, like they come with a, they come a z clear, which is a cleaner, an atoll fogging agent, you know that, you know, we try to do anti fogging in house. I have all the tools to do it in the house, but there's another heating and cooling process that causes us to fail Ansi standards.  Speaker 5: So we had to find an outside source and I met up with um, Chris Ward who owns z clear and then that's why we package everything and hunter's HD go. Was he clear? There are specific things we put in place with every part of the process to be able to try to overcome the objections before they become objections. And I've had people that have brought me lenses before saying I've got this stuff in here. I can't get it off the lens. Am I going? Yeah, this is where pretty much you cleaned your lenses with your jersey, where your shirt, which is the worst thing to do because every bit of dust and dirt that's on that Jersey is going to get in there. And that's what scratches and this, it's when you're using that, I'll talk to them. I say, well take them back. I'm still replace them for weed because I'm here to, I mean I'm not here to sell another pair of lenses every time someone has a problem or I'm here to, you know, build customers for life.  Speaker 5: So I'll tell them, you know, well next time before you clean your lenses, take whatever liquid you have, be it, um, water, kool-aid and Gatorade poured on lenses cause there's a hydrophobic top coat that's not gonna allow anything to stick to them. Then clean them with the stuff that we provided. And then, you know, here's a new, you know, here's your, here's a set of lenses and replaced no charge. If this happens again, I'm gonna charge you $2,000. So it's just, you know, cause we've had, you know, it's all a part of training happens. Um, so, you know, we, I have fun and I'm not just dealing with, you know, if somebody has a problem, it's just not a customer. I said it's a person. I've met some person I've come to know and we have, we have a real life conversation just like we just had, you know, she's like, this is, this is how you, how you can overcome this in the future.  Speaker 5: Don't do that. It's so clear. Cause I see you out there and there's just, there's always a line of people to come talk to you and check them out and figure it out. And part of that is, I also have been, I don't know if you're still doing this, but at least the last season you were doing like a custom set of glasses for each, for each. Yes. I still, I still do that. Getting Ready to, you know, not when I'm sure this podcast is going to be produced, I mean published, but I'll be somewhere else this weekend with another custom pair everywhere I go. And um, that's, that's part of the fun because it does two things. One, it brings people to the tent to see what I've got. Cause I don't ever release any pictures of it until the day of. So people want to come see what I've put together and I gathered their email address for any kind of, you know, a future marketing's or any new product releases.  Speaker 5: What's a good way to, you know, the catcher that on the business side, I'm always have people all the time ask me, you know what, they email me all the time. I said, I don't have time that, you know, so you may get an email once or twice a year about product, you know, a new product update or something that's happening in the, in the, in the honey hundreds HD gold world. But, um, those are mine to keep and I'm not going to sell in anybody. So, um, I've had people ask me in the industry, you know, hey, can I get, you know, have some email addresses for this and this? And I'm like, no, I can't do that. Just like the, when I became part of the USPSA I talked to them and I said, do y'all have an emails out there that can market to, and it's actually in their bylaws, the answer's no, which is fine.  Speaker 5: So I still had to create a way to, you know, build my own list and um, my list I feel in some cases is better than their list because um, if they're not at the award ceremony, the only way I'm going to contact and let them know is through email cause I'm not collecting phone numbers or anything else. So they, they're, you know, they're inclined to give you their correct email address. So when I do have time to send out an email about a product release or what we're doing on youtube or whatever we're doing, um, which has happened, not all think, but once this year when our first time I contest the beginning of the year that lasted out the entire year, they actually emailed everybody. And when are, when I sent out that email, I had a pretty high, I mean, think my open rate was like 80 something percent. So that's pretty high based on talking to other people that are only getting 20 or 30% of their open rates. So kidding. When I email somebody, it's like, hey, you know, it's not very often and you know, we all get those emails two or three times a day from the same company and we, you know, they just become like, I just need to go away. They just see everything and you stuff  Speaker 3: that's a real markable number. Right? That's like, I mean, when we were marketing my mom, uh, my family's been residential real estate for a very, very long time and she was very early on in the email marketing and when we were sending out emails, you know, like 2005 to 10, somewhere in there, 70 to 90% open rate was like pretty awesome. Right? Uh, but now 70 90% is like three x. They did not it. Like I told you, when I go meet all these people, what am I doing? I'm, I'm making friends, I'm building relationships. How many times you open an email from your friend [inaudible] it's all about building that relationship. Well, the other thing too is, I mean, I don't know if you're aware of this, but like I, you know, if you went to American Express and you asked them for email addresses that were as fine tuned as humanly possible to get, um, to get like the right client, right?  Speaker 3: You'd pay like five to $10 per email address. Wow. And that's nothing compared to how refined they are when they opt in directly to your company. Right. So when I tell my clients, for example, is like on your website, wherever you're at, consider that every time someone gives you an email address, it's like they handed you a $5 bill and that's on the bottom of the value of it, right? And you start looking at these assets. I mean, we've got companies that have 10, 12,000 email addresses. I mean, that's a 50 or $60,000 minimum asset that people have built up over time. Um, you know, look, I mean you're not in a position where tomorrow going to come along  Speaker 5: and say you can't market anymore on Facebook because you're a, you know, you're in the protective. Oh really? Some of the tags I've done, I've had some stuff taken down before. Just people shooting competitively based on maybe a Hashtag. I don't know what it was, but they said it was something I promote. Um, firearms or something I liked going and actually challenged it. I'd actually challenged it one time when I tried to boost a post that was um, nothing but the um, it was a youtube page when I looked at that. When I do now, I go around and I, when I'm doing everything, when everybody is shooting, I'm just sitting in a tent. Yeah. I have chosen to go out there and get videos of people shooting and capture like you to use your words that I heard you use a year ago. They're Disney world moment.  Speaker 5: Yeah. And I took that from you, kind of go capture, I take videos of people and at the end of the end of that day, I go put on a youtube page for free. I'm not making money off of Youtube. They're there for them to download their self. Yup. It's a way, you know, to do, you know, promote that. But when I promoted at one time on the 160 go youtube page, they shut it down. And based on my, um, promoting the sh, promoting ammunition and stuff like that, it was weird. So I counteract it and came back and said, I'm promoting safety prescription. I'm promotion to safety, protective eyewear, just like the list that eight other companies that were same thing. And it came back. And finally, you know, I, I won, I won my, uh, you know, I've had my problems too. Robin had the same problems over the hour.  Speaker 5: But when I, you know, I'm very careful on what my hashtags are now. I can't put certain hashtags on there when I want to boost something. But it's one of those things that, um, I'm waiting for the day and I'm always out there looking for something that is, we're not being shadow banned. We're not being, you know, I can go type in, you know, looking for certain companies out there and I actually have to type in the company. Exactly right. Or it doesn't even pull up anymore. He used to get tight, hey, and there's angle lamination and all these other companies at Chi, everybody's right there now. It's like you type I and it's like, nope, nope. You have to type them specifically what they are to get them to pull up now. Yeah. Is that the answer? Is that the way they're doing it now? I guarantee you that's what they're wanting to happen. It could be. It could be either. So my philosophy on all this stuff is I don't get romantic about any of it. I just look. The fact is, is if I had a new company tomorrow that sold guns and I could get away with two months of Facebook advertising before they shut me down, I do it in a second. Um, it was earlier this year actually, that for whatever reason, because we run tests pretty much monthly. Yeah. On Google, on Facebook and places like that.  Speaker 3: Or I just, I've got a couple of hundred bucks this kind of rolling all the time to see if I can get ads through and Google all of a sudden just all my gun ads got through. So we just quintupled down on that for like, I don't know, three or four months. Then all of a sudden we started getting disapproved, disapproved, fine, whatever. I made like 300 grand in the process. I'm not for the companies that I, so I'm just, I just don't get romantic about it. Cause the truth is, is that's just what, where we're at. What we're dealing with and still today, Facebook is, is one of the great arbitragers for your dollar in advertising. And, um, the one thing I'll tell you though is you can get a f an advocate at Facebook. So you've, if you got a couple of ads that have been knocked down, you can apply for an advocate.  Speaker 3: And once you have an advocate, if you're a proven product, they go through and do all the research and you guys aren't selling anything. What you want to make sure is there's no, like there's no, you know, like right now, uh, if I go to your page, I'm at a hunter's ht gold and I go to your, uh, ba Ba ba Ba ba. I was at your testimonials where, yeah, you've got your gold team partners and I can link right to a Chi, for example. And he sells guns. So what you might want to do there is if you were to, it's like one degree of separation you've got to put in place, right? So you could create a page for your website, for each of your, where you give it, like, uh, so the click through goes for a Chi, goes to a page on your site that has what you think of, you know, stuff about a Chi.  Speaker 3: And then there they can click over and go to your, um, to their page instead of having just directly to the correct. And if you do that and the advocate clears all that, then you probably will be okay. And you can run ads all day long and you can still do what you want to do, which is promote your, you these companies, right? And so, um, and you get that in place. Uh, you know, there's some like kayaks holster companies, technically holsters or not banned on Facebook, but try to get an ad out on a, on a holster. It's like fricking impossible. So you got to go through the process and get an advocate and go through the whole thing. And the problem is most holster companies spend a lot of time promoting guns and they don't realize they're doing it. And all they have to do is just do a little clean up and get their house in order. Now look, I don't want it to be that way. Right? But who gives a damn what I want. No, my job is to make money for my and see. Right?  Speaker 3: So, so, you know, and I, I just don't get too romantic about it. And the thing is, if, you know, my competition out there is going to be upset about it all day long and just not pay for advertising on Facebook, they're welcome to do that. But the truth is, is I'm gonna win right at the bottom line. And so I just don't. So are they shadow banning? Probably. Are they making life more difficult for us? Probably, but I don't spend any time thinking about it. Right. You know, and do I want to give my money to a company like that? No. But the truth is, most of the companies I work for are well south of $10 million a year. So, even if you had a $10 million company, your ad budget being 1%, it's gonna be, you know, that's a hundred grand, right? Right. If your ad budgets 3% is $300,000, tell me where you can buy that kind of exposure for 300 grand.  Speaker 3: And I'll do it. It's certainly not the backpage at USPSA front sight magazine. That's correct. So that's where I started to, you know, I start to look and I'm like, well, in the, in the big cost benefit analysis of marketing, um, I just bet ponies and I'll bet whatever pony is gonna win the best of my ability. If I have an option between a winning pony and another winning pony that doesn't, you know, um, put us in third gear all the time. Um, then I'm going to, I'm going to pay for the one that's open throttle. Right? But, but at the same time they don't exist. Right. So it's interesting. Okay. So, look, we covered a lot of stuff and I got a couple of things I just got to ask you because one thing we do a lot on this show is, um, is we talk about how we get our business done and you are traveling like basically every weekend, nine months of the year from what I can tell. What's your, what's your like, what's your key, like what do you like, what are your go to things to like, you know, keep your life in order to keep your business in order. Any tips or tricks, you got hacks we like to call them. Um, it is to, um, one, stay real with yourself. Really good.  Speaker 5: And that's what I mean by that is not just with business but with, with home and everything else with life. Um, Sherry is, um, very, very supportive and everything I'm doing, I

Hi everyone, and thank you for tuning in to another episode of the We Make Books Podcast - A podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between! This week, we’re talking about those wonderful, terrible things called reviews! Our last episode was pretty facts and numbers driven so this week, we wanted to talk about something a little more personal: Reading what people think of your book.  Reviews are so much harder to deal with than we think they will be and in this episode we talk about everything from who will be reviewing your book to coping with a less than favorable review. We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves. We Make Books is a podcast for writer and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, concerns, and your predictions for how long the Mets will manage to stay above .500 (Kaelyn’s got her money on less than 24 hours). We hope you enjoy We Make Books!   Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast       Rekka:00:00   Welcome back to another episode of the We Make Books Podcast. This is all about writing, all about publishing all your questions, all your wonderments, all the just the good fields and also some bad ones, unfortunately today. Kaelyn:00:14   That's true. We're talking about feelings a lot today. Rekka:00:16   We talk a lot about feelings. Kaelyn:00:18   Yeah so, uh, today we didn't introduce ourselves. Rekka:00:22   Who are we anyway? Kaelyn:00:23   [laughs] Rekka:00:23   After the, after recording that episode, I don't even know anymore. I'm Rekka. I write science fiction and fantasy as R.J. Theodore. Kaelyn:00:30   And I'm Kaelyn and I am the acquisitions editor for Parvus Press. Rekka:00:34   And we talk about books - Kaelyn:00:35   A lot. Rekka:00:36   And sometimes we talk about other aspects of books, like the things that other people say about books. Kaelyn:00:42   So today we're talking about reviews and um, Rekka:00:43   Mmm, I don't want to talk about reviews anymore. Kaelyn:00:47   Well, it's a little bit of an emotional roller coaster. Rekka:00:50   Yeah. Kaelyn:00:50   Reviews in general are because um good reviews - Rekka:00:54   Are amazing. Kaelyn:00:54   Amazing. Rekka:00:55   And they lift you up. Kaelyn:00:56   Bad reviews, not so much. Rekka:00:58   Yes. They smash your head against the concrete repeatedly. Kaelyn:01:01   Yeah. So, um, today, you know, we were talking about things we were going to discuss and um, this was something that, it was funny because it started out a little nebulous and then we realized we actually had a lot of structured information to talk Rekka:01:14   Yeah, we really did. Kaelyn:01:14   Um, so we kind of go, we take you through, uh, the process of how books get reviews, um, different kinds of reviews, what they mean, how they can influence you and finally move into the how to deal with reviews, which is, um, you know, a little bit more of a personal side to it. Rekka:01:31   Yeah. Yeah. I got a little personal yeah. Kaelyn:01:33   Which, um, you know, but I think that's great. Rekka:01:35   Yes. Kaelyn:01:35   It's, um, it's, it's an overlooked aspect of this that is very important to authors both in terms of selling their book but also emotionally and, um, kind of goes into that taking care of yourself through this process because it's stressful and it's horrible. Rekka:01:53   It is stressful, and this episode assumes that you are like me incapable of just not looking at the reviews at all. Yeah. That advice, I don't know who it's meant for. It is not meant for me cause I can't, I can't abide that advice no matter what I tried. Kaelyn:02:08   I have not met a single author that doesn't read their own reviews. Rekka:02:11   Tell you what, sometimes if I'm in a bad mood, I go and read my reviews. So what does that tell you about me? Kaelyn:02:17   Ummm ... Rekka:02:17   It's not a good thing? Kaelyn:02:18   Well, Rekka:02:19   I mean my reviews are all right, but I always zero right in on the ones that like where the frustrating, like where did, what book were they reading? Kaelyn:02:27   I have a feeling a therapist could have a field day with that. So we're going to, we're going to go find one while you guys listen to this episode and figure out what is going on with Rekka. Rekka:02:38   Okay, first of all, how dare you. Kaelyn:02:38   So everyone, uh, enjoy the episode please and um. Rekka:02:41   Listen through to the end cause we tease a, a series of episodes that's coming up in September and we want your input on those and we're going to need it soon because we record ahead of time. So please listen all the way through the end. Even if listening to conversation about book reviews is as painful for you as it was for me endure. Kaelyn:02:59   Enjoy the episode everybody. Rekka:03:02   No. [inaudible] Kaelyn:03:15   The soundtrack is amazing. Rekka:03:17   And this isn't the one that's, you said, it's a record store. So it's what, it's the one with the radio station UHF or something like that? Kaelyn:03:26   That might be right. No, this is- Rekka:03:29   This is different. Kaelyn:03:29   The name of the record store is Empire Records. Rekka:03:31   Okay. Gotcha. Kaelyn:03:34   Yeah. Um, there the birds outside or did, do these ever pick up the birds outside? Rekka:03:41   I haven't heard the birds in the, Kaelyn:03:42   I haven't either, which is amazing because when I woke up this morning I was just like, oh right there birds outside and oh, do they have a lot to say. Rekka:03:50   Yeah. Um, if we have picked up dogs. Kaelyn:03:55   Oh yeah. Rekka:03:56   Yeah. But I've never, I've never heard anything other than dogs and the lawnmower. Kaelyn:04:00   Well maybe soon we'll get some frog friends. All the face hungers. We'll do an episode at about like just standing out by the pond there. Rekka:04:09   No, we won't even have to. We can just open the windows. And if we record a dusk, it will be just a cacophony. Kaelyn:04:15   Well, we can do an episode that we record down by there where I'm just observing and remarking on all of the wildlife I see. Because every, it's - Rekka:04:22   Telling the dragon flies to share their rocks. Kaelyn:04:24   I'm a, I'm like a child. I'm like, I could, Rekka, there's like, there's like a fish. Yeah, Kaelyn. I know. But like, do you see it? It's a fish. Like, yes, there's, there's a few of them. Watch out for the snakes and just - Rekka:04:35   Have some, mint. Kaelyn:04:36   Have some mint. So anyway, hey, everyone. Rekka:04:40   Hey everyone, there's our Patreon content. Kaelyn:04:41   Yeah. Welcome to another episode. We are, um, well last week we did, we did a very factual episode two weeks ago. Excuse me. Rekka:04:50   I was going to say, are we doing a weekly podcast now? I'd love to have you visit more often. Kaelyn:04:53   Yeah. No. So we did, we did a very factual episode two weeks ago, so we decided to do something a little more, um - Rekka:04:59   Instead of telling you to put on your hat and mustache, we're going to give you some tissues. Kaelyn:05:05   Look the, the negotiating hat and mustache is a thing, okay? It's, Rekka:05:10   You could say - Kaelyn:05:11   Heals, skirt, jacket, full face of makeup, hat, and mustache. Rekka:05:15   I really want to see you with the mustache now. Kaelyn:05:17   It's weird. Rekka:05:18   I think you could pull it off. Kaelyn:05:20   Um, so yeah, we decided this week we're gonna kind of talk about something that's a little bit more on the emotional side of things. Rekka:05:26   Right. So we've got the publisher here who wants to, you know, talk about all this hidden knowledge and stuff. And then you've got the writer here who is like just concerned with other people like her and her books. Kaelyn:05:38   I have feelings. Rekka:05:41   I have needs and my needs are to be loved. Kaelyn:05:45   I don't have feelings anymore. Rekka:05:48   Um, but that's Wall street's fault. Kaelyn:05:49   Well, no, no. Well debatable, was one the causality of the other? Did I get into publishing and finance because I don't have feelings or do I not have feelings anymore because of that? Um, yeah, so we're talking about reviews and what people think of your book. Rekka:06:08   So if you don't have a book out in the world, you might be excited for the day that you get your first review. But the very minute that you have a book that's out there that someone could read, all of a sudden the other possibility occurs to you that what if they don't like it? Kaelyn:06:27   What if they don't like my baby? Rekka:06:30   And then they tell everyone that it was terrible and nobody reads it because one person didn't like it. Kaelyn:06:37   That's, that's the other side. Rekka:06:41   That's the nightmare, Kaelyn:06:41   That will keep you up at night. Rekka:06:43   So I'm sorry about that. Uh, no. We want to talk about reviews from a, like all holistic standpoint. We want to talk about reviews from a holistic standpoint of, you know, Kaelyn:06:57   So what are reviews? What do they tell us? Rekka:07:01   Views are opinions. They are. Let's just be clear. Kaelyn:07:04   That is, that is actually, that is a very, very good point to establish right off the bat here. Rekka:07:09   Reviews are opinions that for some reason have big britches and think they're pretty great. Kaelyn:07:17   And some opinions are more opinions than others. Rekka:07:19   And some opinions are so much more opinions than others. And this is the age of the Internet. I think everybody knows what an opinion feels like. Kaelyn:07:28   Yeah. Um, and everyone has a platform to go express them. Um, so we're going to kind of - Kaelyn:07:37   Let's start with that. Let's start with the platforms. Rekka:07:39   What are the different forms that a review might take? Kaelyn:07:45   So we were talking about this before we started the episode. I know it doesn't always sound like it, but we do plan things. Rekka:07:50   How dare you? Don't tell them that you're going to ruin my reputation. My brand is my babble. Kaelyn:07:59   Um, so we kind of tried to break this down into types of reviews. So right off the bat we said there's reviews from literary people and then there's reviews from readers. Rekka:08:11   Right. There are people who review professionally. Kaelyn:08:14   Professionally, yes. Rekka:08:15   And then there are those who might pretend to review professionally. Kaelyn:08:21   There are people that go on Amazon and goodreads. There's readers, there's people who are reviewing a book because they read it and had feelings about it rather than someone who's paying them. Rekka:08:30   Right. Kaelyn:08:31   To review books. Rekka:08:32   Yes. So let's be clear, a lot of literary reviews are paid reviews. There are an investment in the chance that their book will get a good review and therefore somebody puts money on the table and someone picks that money up and says, yes, thank you, I will read your book - just you wait. Kaelyn:08:50   Yeah, but I mean also this could be someone who's just an editor at a magazine and this is what they did. Rekka:08:54   Right. Kaelyn:08:55   Um, so, but within the literary, uh, reviews, uh, the professional reviewers, we've got also two types within there. Rekka:09:03   Right? There's the paywall kind of review and the public media review. So when I say paywall, I'm talking about like trade publications. You need a subscription to read it on their website or to receive the print copies for those who still do that. Rekka:09:18   Yeah. And just to be clear, the reason for this is they're doing two different things. Um, trade publications like Publishers Weekly, Kirkland, they are the ones that you need a subscription for. And the people that are going to subscribe to those are book buyers, libraries, bookstores, uh, you know, any sort of mass marketing. And a distribution site because they want to see what's good coming out that I should get a lot of. So the trade publications are, you know, the, if you want to call it industry side of things, the literary side of things, the media ones are like the New York Times Book Review. These are editors that work for some form of media that, you know, they just get a salary and they review these things and then write about them. So they're appealing more to readers. The people who are going to pick books up from that or the ones that are like - Rekka:10:12   They're buying one copy. Kaelyn:10:13   Yeah. And they want to know, ah, I, this sounds interesting. I'll read this one. Rekka:10:19   Or I only read New York Times reviewed books. Kaelyn:10:21   [sigh] Rekka:10:21   Because that means they're the ones that count. Kaelyn:10:25   Yeah. That's a, that's a whole other, Rekka:10:27   That's a mood. Kaelyn:10:30   That's a thing. Um, so then the other side of it is of course the, the readers and these are the people that just, maybe they got the book off of, you know, a media machine that told them about it. Um, and they go online and write a review, say what they thought of the book. Um, you know, who else it might appeal to and any kind or not so kind things they have to say about it. Rekka:10:55   So this can be book bloggers, book Youtubers. Kaelyn:10:59   This could just be someone that bought the book on Amazon and then was like, I loved this and I want everyone to know how much I loved it or I hated this and I don't want anyone else to buy this book. Rekka:11:09   Right. Um, so I would give it zero stars if I could. Kaelyn:11:13   God, thank God that's not a thing, cause could you imagine? Um, so those are the main kind of two groups that we have here. So readers and industry individually. Yeah. So one of the, you know, one of the things you probably, I, I wondered this like when I was a kid, before I got into publication, I'd go buy a book and there was already a review on the cover and I was like, this came out two days ago. Rekka:11:42   Time travel, Kaelyn. Time travel. They have figured it out. Publishing is keeping it to itself. Kaelyn:11:46   I very clearly remember, I don't, I think I was like 14 I don't remember what book it was, but I went to Barnes and noble to buy it and it was a hardback book and I picked it up and there was a review on it. I was like, ho-how? Rekka:12:00   My assumption as a child, because I had the same thought, was that it must be a second printing. Kaelyn:12:05   Okay, see yours was more logical than mine. Mine - Rekka:12:08   It was time problem. Kaelyn:12:08   Mine was time travel. So books go out early to publish- to people in the industry. This could be authors that can give it a blurb. This could be places like Publishers Weekly that is going to write up a review for it. And we talked about a- ARCs quite a couple episodes ago. Rekka:12:30   Yep. Kaelyn:12:30   And these are the ARCs. This is what they're doing. This is why they're sent out into the wild. Rekka:12:34   Going out to be seen with enough time because of course books take longer to consume than a movie or television episode. So the ARCs have gone out, people have had time to pour over them and hopefully fall in love. And maybe even start talking about them, share a photo of them. We talked to one of our other authors, Christopher Ruz recently. Um, and when I say our authors, I mean our, our little part of his family. Um, but Christopher Ruz had just literally before we got on the call, seen his book in the stack of books that John Scalzi, that's a, we're talking about the influencer that's like, Kaelyn:13:13   Oh God, we have literary influencers. Rekka:13:15   We have literary influencers, we do. So, um, yeah, so that's the thing too. So sometimes just having your book appear in a stack, it's a great, helpful, yeah. Kaelyn:13:25   It's a great thing. It's just, you know, and it's fun. So, um, typically like ARCs might go out with blurbs from authors. You know, you circulate this to a few people, a bloggers, authors, people that will, you know, say like, Oh yeah, I read this and I loved it. And you put that on there. Rekka:13:43   Hopefully it's phrased slightly better than that. Kaelyn:13:46   That's what I always say. So, and then the ARCs that go or the publications that go out are gonna have the things from the reviews. And that's you know, five stars from - Rekka:14:00   Yeah. So and so just in terms of a movie like the movie trailer that right the week before exactly has the five star and so and so says it's the must see hit of the summer kind of thing. And we're talking about those sorts of blurbs that can be used, um, to what is the, the term social, the reason you want reviews is it's like social proof. Kaelyn:14:25   Oh, okay. Rekka:14:26   So the reviews that you get from peers and other authors, um, will maybe convince the publications to pick it up and look at it. And then the publication reviews and blurbs on the covers will maybe convince the readers to pick it up and look at it because um, that's like the social proof that, um, that you require. And it's also partially why you want more reviews on your book page, product page on Amazon. Because again, it's social proof. It's flypaper if don't see reviews on a book, they assume no one has read it, which is a terrible thing to assume, but it's, it's flypaper. It's people go where there are more reviews. And the nice thing about having a ton of reviews is they tend to cancel out the ones that are not in the storyline in terms of, yeah, negative outliers. Like they do tend to be overwhelmed by true organic reviews as opposed to people with a, a vendetta against the book because of emotional trauma. They suffered from something else in their lives. Kaelyn:15:40   So that's kind of the rundown of how the reviews are going. Um, you know, the advanced ones are going to be from advanced copies either for ARCs that were sent out or Netgalley. So then they start coming in. Rekka:15:53   Right. And so they can help a book succeed. Kaelyn:15:56   Oh, absolutely, they're crucial. Rekka:15:58   Again, like we said, the social proof, they can influence the sales in the case of someone who is directly linking to the book and the book sells as a result of it appearing wherever it appeared. So that can be to both readers and booksellers, um, that is a direct sale influence. Um, it can also just help build your name recognition if someone is just hearing your name over and over and over again, they're going to forget that the first time they heard the name they decided not to make the purchase. You know, that they just keep hearing that um, you know, trail of lightning by Rebecca Roanhorse, is just incredible and they just keep hearing that trail of lightning by Rebecca around horses is just incredible. Kaelyn:16:39   And you know what? Rekka:16:39   Trail of Lightening. by Rebecca Roanhorse is incredible. Kaelyn:16:42   And you know what, that's how I heard about it. Rekka:16:44   Yup. Kaelyn:16:45   I just kept hearing the title of Rekka:16:48   Over and over again - Kaelyn:16:49   Being mentioned and kept popping up in things and people were writing reviews and posting them to stuff and full confession: I still have just not had time to read it. Rekka:16:58   I have read it. It is very good. Kaelyn:17:00   But I have the copy of it and it's on my list. I just have not gotten to it yet. Rekka:17:05   Well, I mean that is the life that is. Kaelyn:17:07   Yeah. That's the thing about like you think like, oh, I love books. I'm going to do this. Oh, now I can't read anything that I want to read them. Yeah. Um, so yeah, reviews are very egr- , reviews can make or break a book and we don't like to think that's the case, but it is. Rekka:17:24   So you have name recognition so that it will eventually influence somebody who might be open to that book in the first place to pick it up. And maybe it's not that they need to hear it 11 times before they buy it. That's not a conscious choice. But by seeing it over and over again, one of those times it's going to just hit the person on the right day in the right mood or it's going to be described differently in a new way that's going to make that person go, oh, that's what that is. Actually. I really want to read that. Um - Kaelyn:17:53   I will, by the way, give you an example of that. I did not read the hunger games for a very long time until after it came out. Now, part of it was the cover copy. It just was not like, it just did not appeal to me, but it kept popping up, kept popping up and like your opinions about the hunger games aside, you know, it was fine, whatever. Rekka:18:13   Successful. Kaelyn:18:14   But that's the thing is that it was very successful and part of it was the reviews that I finally went and looked at them and I was like, everyone loves this book. Now, I kind of knew like, you know, this wasn't going to change my life, but like it was fine. It was good. Rekka:18:30   Yeah. Kaelyn:18:30   You know. Um, so that's, you know, that's a good example of like this thing that I just kept, not only not buying, but actively avoiding. Rekka:18:40   Resisting. Kaelyn:18:41   Yeah. Listen, Rekka:18:42   And I've done that with, you know, Empire Records of the movie, you know, Kaelyn:18:45   I'm going to make you watch it. Rekka:18:46   Yes. I know. Um, so the name recognition, eventually you wear a person down and that's, uh, that is a marketing thing that people say it takes x number of con- points of contact before a person remembers you and it takes x number before they make the decision to purchase. Kaelyn:19:03   I still probably would not have read that book if I hadn't checked out the reviews and saw that everyone was raving about. Rekka:19:09   And something drew you to the page to go look at the reviews. Kaelyn:19:13   Yeah. Because it kept coming up and I was like, alright, I gotta go see what's going on. Rekka:19:17   Yeah. What am I missing? Um, so it will, and that's sort of the next point. It will help a reader make a decision. Is this for me? That is, that is another question that many readers who manage to control their TBR piles, they ask like, is this one that I'm actually going to enjoy or is this, you know, some readers need to know that when they sit down with a book, it's going to hit the marks of things that they enjoy in a book. And so reviews, um, without spoiling can still, we'll just kind of like hint at like, oh, it's got romance, it's got adventure, it's got kickass feminine lead characters. It's got magic. It's got baby dragons. Like governments being overthrown. Kaelyn:20:03   I have a question. Rekka:20:04   Can I have a baby dragon? Kaelyn:20:05   Is this a book that exists? Rekka:20:06   Probably. Kaelyn:20:07   Okay. Rekka:20:08   I wasn't naming one in particular. Kaelyn:20:09   No, I'm just saying like, I mean I'm just saying there's -. Rekka:20:12   You asked me what I was going to write next. There you go, I'll write that for you. Kaelyn:20:14   Thank you. Rekka:20:15   And then remind me what I said. I'll have to listen to that. Kaelyn:20:17   We'll go back to the recording. Just going to give you a list of like Rekka for your next book. What about my editor? He's not important, for your next book. Rekka:20:27   So, so we did say that a review can draw other media attention. So like you might end up getting on a couple of book lists from other people because they saw a review that made them pick it up. Kaelyn:20:39   Yeah and by the way, just a quick aside, I think this is a common misunderstanding that all of this, you know, stuff needs to be beforehand, right. Rekka:20:48   A lot of stuff with books comes after as follows. Kaelyn:20:51   Yeah. Where the it picks up and then suddenly you're on book lists and people like, we think that reviews from major outlets only come beforehand. That's not true at all. Lot of them come after. Rekka:21:01   And it's frustrating when, um, you know, from a little weak author's perspective when you hear that like a publisher will stop paying attention to your book after a certain amount of time. Kaelyn:21:13   Definitely not. Yeah. Rekka:21:14   No, we don't want that because it's possible. Kaelyn:21:16   No. And it's, um, you know, sometimes it's simply a matter of you can only make the book available to so many people before it's released. Some people just have to wait until it comes out. Rekka:21:27   Yeah. Kaelyn:21:28   It's not fair. And I should get every book I want right now. Yes. Um, but I'm told I have to wait sometimes. Rekka:21:35   So, um, when people start reviewing on product pages after a book has been released, you know, or as soon as Amazon will allow you to leave the reviews or good reads will let you leave them early. Amazon, you need to at least have the ebook. Kaelyn:21:53   Amazon's weird. Rekka:21:53   They're changing the rules. I mean, I'd rather have a four star review that says, I can't wait to read it than a three star review that said, Oh my God, I love this. I can't wait to read the next one. Kaelyn:22:03   We will get to that. Rekka:22:04   We'll get to that. So, um, all of these data points that people are leaving on the Internet because that's frankly the world we exist in. Now. These data points feed the algorithms additional data to drive the search - Kaelyn:22:18   Ah the delicious data slurry that feeds the algorithms. Rekka:22:20   Yes, you'll lose your boots trying to walk through it, but you know, it is sticky, gooey goodness that will drive people to your books who are in theory a good match. And the reason that these algorithms are designed to find you good matches is because Amazon and the others want a reputation for their recommendations to be valuable. Kaelyn:22:42   Yes. Rekka:22:43   So they want their search results to make people happy, which means they want to deliver people to products that will make them happy. Your book is a product, I'm sorry to tell you that again and again and again, but it's true. And Amazon wants to find people who want to buy your book because then they will pay Amazon for your book and then Amazon will get more money because that's what they need desperately. They are starving. Kaelyn:23:03   It's really sad. And I think we should moment of silence for Amazon. Rekka:23:06   Maybe just start a Go Fund Me cause we got to get on with the episode. Kaelyn:23:09   It's true. Rekka:23:09   All right. So, um, so those algorithms will find good readers. So you want people to leave accurate reviews for how they feel about it because then Amazon will match their purchase history and other books they have enjoyed and find other people similar to them. This is kind of like building your audience with Facebook pixels. Um, and then by finding those people, Amazon will serve your booked to people who are better suited to read it and then leave you more positive reviews. So it's a good thing. Kaelyn:23:40   It's a great thing. Rekka:23:40   It's just that it can be frustrating because as we've mentioned earlier in the episode, the Internet is full of opinions. Kaelyn:23:46   Yes. So - Rekka:23:48   And some people choose to bless you with their opinion whether you want it or not. Okay. So the other side of that was that there are pitfalls to reviews and we've touched on them. We have hinted at them. We have ironically sarcastically said things so far in the episode to give you the impression that sometimes the reviews will not be positive. Kaelyn:24:06   Yeah. And let's just get it right out of the way. Right off the gate. Bad reviews are hard to deal with and process and this is coming from, you know the - Rekka. You guys can't see Rekka making a sad face right now. Rekka:24:20   I never make a happy face. Kaelyn:24:22   I as a publisher also obviously hate bad reviews and nothing is more infuriating than seeing one where somebody is upset about something that they shouldn't have been. Rekka:24:35   Or has nothing to do with the book. Kaelyn:24:36   Or has nothing to do with the book or will halfway admit through the review: I only read the first three chapters. Rekka:24:43   One star. The book came damaged. Kaelyn:24:45   Yeah. Oh that's a good one yeah. Rekka:24:48   That's one of the best. Kaelyn:24:49   So you know, the thing about these sites is everyone gets to put their opinion on there and it's good because for the most part it's helpful for books. Rekka:25:00   Yeah. Kaelyn:25:01   But especially if your book is, you know, just recently launched and your reviews are slowly trickling in and you get like a one one star and that knocked some your - Rekka:25:09   Just suddenly your average that goes from like 4.7 to like 2.3 and I know that's not how math works. But yes. Kaelyn:25:18   And that's incredibly frustrating and it can take an emotional toll. It can, I, I understand that. Like, you know, this can, that can ruin your day. That can ruin your week. Rekka:25:30   Yup. Um, don't read reviews before bed. Let me just put that right down to that. So one of the pitfalls of bad reviews and negative reviews is hurt feelings and they are probably going to be on the part of the people who can't really do anything about it, the publisher and the author. Because as we'll get to later, you're not going to respond to individuals don't like that, but they will also potentially, if it's an influencer who chooses to take particular exception to you and they don't just leave a review in the comments that like falls into the sea of other reviews, but they choose to actually take to their platform to denounce your book. That can influence sales of their followers and some influencers do have a large, they carry avidly attentive crowd of followers who will do what this influencer says. Rekka:26:23   We were, another thing we were talking about before we got started here was you've got to have a little bit of a thick skin going into this and you can't. I know it's so much easier said than done and this is coming from two people who have to deal with this stuff. You can't take it personally. Rekka:26:43   You have to figure out how you're going to use this information. Kaelyn:26:45   Yeah, I understand that this is the most personal thing in the world. This is your book. This is years of your life, hours and hours that you will never get back. Rekka:26:55   And potentially income if the review costs you money. Kaelyn:26:57   Potentially income, it's not personal. I hope it's not, anyway, some - Rekka:27:04   Eh, yeah, that's, that's part of it, you know? Kaelyn:27:07   But, but if you get a bad review and it's a genuinely just, I did not enjoy this book, look at it as this person just didn't enjoy this book. Look at all of these other people that did like,. Rekka:27:19   Just to quickly sum that up, there are only two real problems with bad reviews. One, you're not going to feel good about them. And two, they might negatively impact your sales. Chances are they're just going to eventually drown in the sea of other reviews or be forgotten. So how do you react to bad reviews? Kaelyn:27:36   Don't. That's just don't. Rekka:27:40   But you have feelings. I'm saying like, okay, you're, you're mistaking that for responding. Kaelyn:27:46   Yes, Rekka:27:46   I'm not, I'm not saying respond. Kaelyn:27:47   Yes. Rekka:27:48   Okay. So now that you have bad reviews or good reviews there, they're both emotional. Kaelyn:27:57   Oh, absolutely. Rekka:27:57   Highs and lows, highs and lows and that sort of thing. So how do you react? One is - Kaelyn:28:03   Let's go with good reviews first. Rekka:28:05   Sure. Kaelyn:28:05   That's the easier one to - Rekka:28:06   One is you can use those reviews if they're fantastic. Kaelyn:28:09   Absolutely. Rekka:28:10   Those are yours. Now retweet them if they're posted publicly. Yeah, you just cite the source of the review and if it's like some weird username on Amazon, you can just say Amazon reviewer or something or um, retweet them if you found them on Twitter. Um, if you have a product page for your book on your website, you can just start listing your favorite good reviews there. And it's not a bad practice to save your good reviews cause Amazon might randomly take them down one day, which is obnoxious and frustrating. Kaelyn:28:37   Well and this is horrible, that something can happen to Amazon and then everything's gone. Rekka:28:41   Everything that Amazon owns is gone. If they suddenly decide that they make spaceships now instead of sell everything in the universe. Kaelyn:28:49   I mean spaceships are probably only a matter of time. Rekka:28:51   Yes. But that will be this separate section of Amazon so they can shut down the books department. Um, yeah. So if something were to happen to Amazon, somebody finally takes enough of an issue that they hack Amazon or whatever and wipe their databases and all their backups there go your reviews. So it's always good to save the reviews you want to be able to access again later. So put them on your book page. Just keep a file in, you know, private, you don't even have to share it and post it anywhere, but just keep a file of all of the good reviews you've gotten and their sources so that you can use them someday if you need to have like if you want to add praise for something that you can credit them properly cause yes those are your reviews. They were posted publicly. You can use them in your marketing, but you also want to credit the person who gave them to you. Definitely because it's not social proof. If you just to have good things to say about your own book. So you can use them in cover blurbs. If they're well written, obviously cover blurb has to be a little bit shorter than the average review. So somebody writes it in a pithy manner and there's like a great sentence that you can highlight and pull out. You can put that on a cover blurb or on a, um, you know, industry praise page inside your book, stuff like that. Um, use it on the book description of your product pages. Amazon and other book sites have a field in the product listing specifically for reviews that are um, you know, separate on the page. They don't want them like bogging down to book description, but they have a spot you can put them. So absolutely put them there. If you have a great review blurb from somebody that you know, their name is worth something, um, which sounds really transactional, but like at that point, that person has given you that review for that purpose. Kaelyn:30:33   And you know what that's it. It sounds transactional. It is, but it's important. Rekka:30:38   And it's mutual. Kaelyn:30:39   You know, it's how it's how things go. And it is just, um, a series of people helping the ones, the next ones get a leg up. Rekka:30:47   Yes, absolutely. So, um, those are the good reviews. Kaelyn:30:50   Those are the good reviews. Rekka:30:51   Now I will give the next piece of advice, but it also applies to good reviews or don't have it. Don't respond to that review in a comment thread on the reviews page of Amazon. Yes, you are not partaking in a message board about your books on Amazon. You are not the target audience for those reviews. Yes, you would probably not able to help yourself from reading them, but they are not for you. They are for future potential readers of your book. Kaelyn:31:22   Yes. Rekka:31:22   Do not engage. Do not make the reviewers feel like you are breathing down their necks and about to, you know, come at them if they don't leave a review that's worthy of your, you know, affection or whatever. Even good reviews. If you start commenting on all of them, you can start to make readers feel pretty uncomfortable. Kaelyn:31:42   A lot of people who write reviews, especially on Amazon and goodreads, maybe, you know, that's a little more community driven thing, I think. Amazon, they're reviewing a product and as far as they know, they're doing it in a void. They're not there to interact with people. They're there to leave their thoughts. And a lot of reviewers I think don't really think about how, especially for the first month or so, the author is compulsively checking this, looking for reviews. Rekka:32:14   YEs Kaelyn:32:14   I think if they, they're just going, oh cool, I'm going to, I liked this book. I'm going to tell people about how I liked this book. So when they find that the author is reading these and then as interacting with them, I think that kind of mentally pulls them out of Rekka:32:33   It also may prevent them from reviewing everyone else's things in the future because they might feel that this is a thing that happens. So they can't leave an honest review and then they may just feel nervous about it and stop reviewing and that is not what anyone wants. Kaelyn:32:47   Yeah. So, um, let's get into what happens when you get a bad review. Rekka:32:52   And so again, don't engage that review is still not for you, even if they are not seeming to take something personal from that. Yeah. If they are personally saying, you know, such and such authors should never have gotten a publishing deal. Kaelyn:33:12   That is still just their opinion by the way, that person's just a jerk. Rekka:33:17   Right, but there are reviews like that. Exactly. You might want to engage, you might want to send your friends or fans to engage. Kaelyn:33:25   Don't do it. Rekka:33:26   Don't, don't even, because again, the idea with all of those is that reviewers are supposed to be reviewing books in a vacuum, yet they're not supposed to be a influenced by anything or be afraid of anything. If they wanted to have a conversation with you about your books, you probably have a contact form on your website or they can find you on Twitter or on Facebook or Instagram. They will come find you, if they want to engage with you, the fact - Kaelyn:33:53   Which even then probably still don't engage. Rekka:33:55   There's another, yeah, there's another little bit about that on Twitter. There you will frequently see keeps coming up. Don't add an author if you're leaving a negative review on Twitter, like there's just don't. So that may still happen and that may, I would just say when it comes to negative reviews, just you have to be able to dust off your shoulder and walk away without engaging, it is so difficult not to react emotionally to this. Kaelyn:34:22   Well, can I ask you, how did you feel when you got your first negative review? Rekka:34:26   Oh, I've never gotten negative review. No. Um, um, I was crushed. I was absolutely crushed and I was shaking. Um, and it was devastating for me for the rest of the day. I couldn't focus and I couldn't. Um, I couldn't think of anything else. Kaelyn:34:50   And I will say conversely, when books that I've worked on and especially, you know, early reviews and stuff and they get less than stellar reviews, um, I get very upset, um. Rekka:35:03   Hot under the collar about it for the rest of the day at least. Kaelyn:35:06   And I think we as people have this like, I need to set this person straight. Rekka:35:11   Yeah. Kaelyn:35:11   You can't, don't do that. Rekka:35:12   Like the person says one thing that makes you realize that they didn't quite understand what you were going to need to describe it to them. Kaelyn:35:19   That's what I was edging towards and we can lead into now is there's probably two major kinds of bad reviews. One is, I didn't like this, either, you know, it wasn't for me. I didn't like the story. I didn't like the writing. I didn't connect with it, the characters. Rekka:35:35   And that's just, that's just a review and that's just what it is. Kaelyn:35:38   However the other - Rekka:35:39   No, no, no. I've got more to say about that one. If that person is helpful, yeah, they might say, I picked up this book thinking it was going to be just like Stephen King's dark towers and your book has nothing like Stephen King's dark towers. That's a fantastic review for you to have because one person has stopped other dark towers fans for purchasing your book and leaving the same review. So we covered that a little bit before, but I'm just saying like that review where it's like, I was expecting this but I got this. It's honest. It's not necessarily wrong unless they are wrong and it's not whatever they say. Kaelyn:36:12   And it's not personal. Rekka:36:13   It's not personal, it's just like, well, I really thought I was getting something else. Kaelyn:36:16   So that's, that's one kind of bad review and we can, we can argue which one is harder to deal with. But the other is, and this is from my end, this is the frustrating one. The people who just either clearly didn't read it past a few chapters or are being obtuse about it. Rekka:36:36   Yeah. Rekka:36:37   Um, I won't say didn't understand it because I hate that, you know, I don't like the well, you just didn't get it because my answer to that is always, well that's a problem then. Rekka:36:46   Yeah. Kaelyn:36:47   Um, but the flip side of that is people who don't get it because the did not read it well or they didn't put the effort into it and you're absolutely going to get some of those because people, some people write very long reviews and they'll be like, and this thing was never addressed. And it's like, no, no, we did address that. We did answer that question. This is something that's talked about in the book and it's incredibly frustrating because now you've got this glaring ugly review sitting there. Rekka:37:14   That makes it look as though you have not answered it. And the only way that you can prove that you did is if someone picks it up anyway and you feel like this review is going to prevent that from happening. Kaelyn:37:23   Exactly. That is an incredibly, and I think that those are the kind that really drive people over the edge. The ones that are just like, I didn't like it. That's sad and upsetting in its own right. Yeah, because you know that's something that you can't do anything about. The ones where it's like this person gave me a horrible review on a book that they clearly did not pay attention. Rekka:37:45   Attention to. Yeah. And these this day and age, frankly people are on their phones all the time. I've seen people reading and then pick up their phone and then go back to reading and it's like how, how much attention are you paying to either of those things? Like can you've really focused the way people used to focus on books when there wasn't a constant input device. Kaelyn:38:04   So don't get me wrong, I fast read some books, but if I don't feel like I want, like if I'm kind of not feeling great about them when I finish them, I'm kind of like, I probably missed something. Rekka:38:14   Yeah. Kaelyn:38:14   Um, and this is, this is a personality default thing. I think there's two ways people can go. There's the me where it's like, I must have missed something here. And then there's the, well, they just didn't do it. Rekka:38:24   I'm the right one. I am correct all the time. Forever. I've never been wrong. Um, so, so I would like to say that there are also, there are two other kinds of reviews. Kaelyn:38:33   Oh, okay. Rekka:38:33   We're going further with, we're going for, I can drill this down as an author. I feel targeted by more, more than just the two typefaces - Kaelyn:38:39   Do they fit into these two categories? Rekka:38:40   I tried. And I really tried. They there, they might be cousins. Um, one is the person who says, I didn't finish it. I didn't, I couldn't read past chapter one. Here's my review of the entire book. Kaelyn:38:56   Well, I would put that in the people that didn't pay attention to it category. Rekka:39:01   I feel like that's more of a conscious decision not to read the book and still give an opinion as opposed to the people who think they read the book versus the people who know that they shut the cover before they got to the end. Kaelyn:39:12   All right, so that's one. Rekka:39:13   And then the, well that's number three and number four is the, I really enjoyed this book. I am looking forward to the next one. Three stars. She's laughing because she's early because she knew what Kaelyn:39:29   I - this is. These reviews as - Rekka:39:32   This is well written - Kaelyn:39:33   These ones. Rekka:39:34   I really enjoyed this. I could see it as a movie. Three stars. Kaelyn:39:37   These reviews as a publisher are the bane of my existence. Rekka:39:43   Yup. Kaelyn:39:45   I, you know, if you go look up Parvus books, you can definitely, you know, find a few of these. It takes every ounce of restraint I have in me not to write back to this person. I loved this book. It hooked me at the first chapter, kept me engaged to the end. There were a few couple little things that I didn't like. This character that I didn't understand but oh boy, I hope this author's got another book coming out in this same world. I can't wait to read it. Three out of five stars, three out of five stars is not a, I can't wait to read the next book, review and Rekka and I are climbing up on a soapbox right now because we're taking this a little out of the, you know the etiquette realm of things and taking it more into the, Rekka:40:34   Because my reaction to that is motherfucker, what? Kaelyn:40:39   Reviews are as we've just spent the last half hour or so talking about, very important. Rekka:40:44   And they are well defined by the platforms on which you leave them. Kaelyn:40:48   Yes. Rekka:40:48   Which is also part of the problem because sometimes the platforms on which you leave them if you leave them on multiples, the three star review that Goodreads tells you is a positive review on Amazon is considered pure critical. Kaelyn:41:01   Yes. Which is weird because Amazon owns Goodreads, so they should probably sync those two things up. Rekka:41:06   Amazon since they bought Goodreads has Not turned good reads into an Amazon thing, which is they've just held onto it. But the reviews is something they really should bring into alignment because there are people who believe, I mean, there are people on Goodreads whose profiles say you have to earn my five star review. And it's like, why are you coming off like that? Kaelyn:41:25   Well, and that's another thing is that I think I can go Rekka:41:28   You need friends that you can go just let loose on and you know that they're not going to go into the comments either they're all just gonna sit around and go, oh man, Gosh, some people. So you need someone that you can trust. Like I know I can send Kaelyn a text with a screenshot and just go look at this one. Look at this. Just peach and precious, precious reviewer. I'm really reigning in my language here. Um, you know, thanks for that. Thanks. You're so helpful. Kaelyn:41:56   I will not bring in my language and I will write back that fucking yeah of God. No, I get it. Just, just ignore them. Rekka you're, you're too good for them. Rekka:42:07   Yeah. So it's um, you need a circle of friends where your frustration over the review is not going to leave the circle salt, the edges of the circle. Keep your view on the, your opinions about the review on the inside and keep the reviews on the outside. I mean, there was a reason that the advice is frequently repeated to not read the reviews. I think everybody knows nobody's following that. Kaelyn:42:30   No one's going to not do that. Rekka:42:31   That - how curious, how can you just like let a book out into the world and not wonder how it's doing? Kaelyn:42:37   Go! Be free! Rekka:42:37   Yeah, no, we like, you know, nature scientists tag their, their studies specimen, you have reviews and we're always checking back in and we want to know that the book is loved as much as we love it. Kaelyn:42:50   Yeah. So it's hard. It's not fun. You can't engage, you can't do anything. You are going to come off as the bonkers one in that situation. Rekka:43:02   Every time. And what you need to do is train yourself to have your reaction privately to like walk away from a computer. So there's no chance of sending out a signal into the world about your reaction to it. Kaelyn:43:14   If you want to walk away, go stand in your backyard and scream. Rekka:43:18   Yes. Kaelyn:43:19   That's fine because there is no situation in which you - Rekka:43:24   Can improve that review. Kaelyn:43:26   I won't say go after someone, but interact with them after a bad review that makes you look good at the end of - Rekka:43:34   Or makes them want to change the review for the better. Kaelyn:43:36   Well that too. That's another, yeah, that's certainly not going to help. There is no circumstances under which you leave this better. The only other thing is that maybe this person also doesn't look as good now, but that even then is not going to help you because you're not there to go online and bully people. Your job as an author is not to use your platform to go online and bully people who don't like your writing. Rekka:44:00   Right. Kaelyn:44:01   So it's hard. Deep breaths, tea, coffee, vodka. Rekka:44:07   Share it with people. Kaelyn:44:08   Whatever your, put the vodka in the tea. Yes, whatever you need to, but try. Your first one is going to be the, that's like someone hitting you in the chest with a sledgehammer. Rekka:44:23   Or an axe. Kaelyn:44:24   An axe whichever. I mean, you're going to get the wind knocked at you. You're going to feel horrible. It's not fun. And then you will look back and go, remember that time I got that first bad review and how I cried for three days. Oh my God. Now I'm just like, ha, bring it. Rekka:44:39   Um, when does that happen? Can I have some of that? Kaelyn:44:42   You've got a bit to go. Rekka:44:42   Yeah, the badies still hurt. They don't get the, it never feels good to have someone go online and drag you. Kaelyn:44:49   Yeah, of course not. Rekka:44:50   And they might not even think they're dragging you Kaelyn:44:53   No. Rekka:44:53   They see a three-star review as positive. Kaelyn:44:56   But that's the thing. They're not going online to drag you. You're going online to review your book. Now we should say, there are some jerks in the world. Rekka:45:05   Right. There are people who use, as Kaelyn said before, the ability to criticize others as a way to make themselves feel like more valuable people. Kaelyn:45:15   Exactly. And, and those, there's nothing you can do about those people. And to be honest with you, the best thing to do with those people is just say, I don't want to know or be around this person anyway. They're clearly a jerk. Rekka:45:28   But you're not saying it to them. You're saying it to yourself because you are never ever going to speak to. Kaelyn:45:31   Never going to say it to them. Yes and pick your head up, read the good reviews, print, print them out and leave them next to your computer for it if something happens and remind yourself that you know that you made a good book because you worked with a good group of people, you put the time and effort in and other people are buying it and telling you how much they like it. And I understand that is a hard thing to mentally get over. But to do this you have to have thick skin a little bit because anytime you are putting something out in the world, you were making it available for other people to criticize. Rekka:46:04   All of them. You cannot control who gets to read your book. Kaelyn:46:08   Yes, but on a happy note, a lot of people are going to read it. They're going to like it and they're going to tell you how much they like it. So stick with that. Rekka:46:16   Stick with that and do it yourself. Kaelyn:46:18   Yeah. Rekka:46:18   If there's a book you love an author, you love all their stuff. Go start some bank up, some good book review Karma. Kaelyn:46:26   Yup. Rekka:46:26   And go leave positive reviews. And of course, as we said, remember three star review is considered critical. Kaelyn:46:31   And just remember you're probably gonna make someone's day. Rekka:46:34   You make someone's Day with a four or five star review that just pick your favorite moments without spoilers and just gush for a little bit. It doesn't hurt anybody and it feels really good. Kaelyn:46:43   Yup. And you're going to make someone's day, Two people because they're editor's going to go [squealing] Rekka:46:47   Yeah. And the people, they share it with Kaelyn:46:51   Yes exactly Rekka:46:52   - next to them in the living room that they read it aloud. Kaelyn:46:54   Your editor gets just as worked up and excited about these things as you do. So, Rekka:46:59   Yes. Kaelyn:46:59   So anyway, um, that's a happy note to end on, right. Rekka:47:03   Hey, speaking of reviews, Kaelyn:47:04   Oh. Rekka:47:05   If our listeners could leave us a rating, or a reveiw - Kaelyn:47:08   Yes, speaking of reviews. Rekka:47:10   That would be so amazing. Go Find Apple's podcast platform and leave a - Kaelyn:47:14   Whatever form it exists in this future. Rekka:47:18   Yeah, we still don't know. Maybe you do. Maybe, maybe we still don't. Maybe - Kaelyn:47:22   You can comment and let us know. Rekka:47:23   Yes. And so leave a star rating on Apple's iTunes, whatever it is, podcast platform. And if you have a little bit of time to say why you love the podcast, the reviews really help boost that algorithm even more. We like to feed the algorithm. Kaelyn:47:41   Rekka, look at you with your segways today. I'm so impressed. Rekka:47:43   I got this going on. I got you. Um, yes. So all, all power to the Algorithm and um, let's please, if you could leave a rating review, you can also send us your publishing and writing questions at @WMBcast on Twitter. Our DMs are always open. If you're a little shy and uh, at @WNBcast on Instagram, it's a little harder to collect questions there, but you can find some cute photos of our mascot, chunky boy on Instagram. Kaelyn:48:13   And also some pictures of uh, guess what we're going to do later today? Rekka:48:17   We are going axe throwing. Kaelyn:48:18   Rekka's taking me to throw axes. Rekka:48:19   Speaking of bad reviews and figuring out healthy ways to get around them. Kaelyn:48:24   I'm so excited. I've never done this before. And um, we're gonna see how many fingers I have left when, uh, Rekka:48:30   if you're holding the ax correctly, the fingers should not be in any danger whatsoever. Well you say that you did mention you're putting tea in your vodka later, so yeah. Kaelyn:48:40   Yeah. Rekka:48:40   So, um, so come engage with us on Twitter, Instagram. You can also find us and support us if you're able on patreon.com/WMBcast.com And that will help us pay for a transcription and, um, audio production so that we have more time to come up with great answers for your publishing and writing questions. Kaelyn:49:03   Yep. So, uh, thanks everyone so much for listening. Uh, this was fun episode. Rekka:49:08   Yeah, we got. Kaelyn:49:10   We got on the soapbox a little bit at the end there. Rekka:49:12   But I think every author is on that soapbox with us. It's like dancing on the head of a pin. Kaelyn:49:15   Fair, um fair. Rekka:49:16   We have a special month of topics coming up, so we'd love to collect questions Kaelyn:49:23   Yes we do, we mentioned this in a previous episode that we were thinking of doing it. We're definitely going to do it. Oh, we're going to do submissions September. Rekka:49:30   Yeah. Kaelyn:49:31   Which is, we're gonna do four episodes that month, so weekly. Rekka:49:35   Weekly episodes. Rekka:49:37   And we are going to talk about submissions. Um, we're kind of putting together what our topics are going to be, what we're going to cover every week. But if we get any particular feedback about things, people would like to hear about anything they have questions about, uh, we can definitely factor that in. Um, so yeah, four episodes in September and we're going to be talking about submissions because I think that is, Rekka:50:02   That's a big one. Rekka:50:02   That's a big one for a lot of people. Rekka:50:04   That's the gatekeeper. Rekka:50:04   Yeah, exactly. So, um, you know, when we were planning out episodes, we, we had some topics we wanted to talk about and then we decided maybe we should just group all of this together. And then two weeks between them seemed like too much. So we're gonna - Rekka:50:19   And only two episodes on the subject and said no, there's, no way Rekka:50:22   Yeah and we were writing down what we want to talk about and there were, there was a lot. So, um, yeah. Anyway, uh, send us, send us questions about that or even, you know, we'd love to hear like your own experiences with things and um, what you wish you knew, what, what no one told you, what you were afraid of and it didn't turn out that way at all or what you didn't even know to be afraid of honestly. Rekka:50:43   So, you know, give us the whole, the whole experience is the way you understood it. And um, we'll, you know, maybe one of our, um, neat things can be to like read people's experiences if they're willing to share them. Kaelyn:50:56   Definitely. Rekka:50:56   Mark, if you give us your story, definitely mark whether or not you want us to share it. Um, so yeah, that's something that's coming up. So if you hear this now, we are probably already planning to record, so do send us your questions quickly. I know that September seems like it's really far away, but you know how this works, the year evaporates. Rekka:51:13   Yeah I can't believe. Rekka:51:15   Anyway, so that's coming up. So look forward to that and we will talk to you in two more weeks and, um, we will be picking a question from the audience, kind of, um, picking a topic that seems to be coming up a lot, so, so, Yep. Rekka:51:30   All right. Well, thanks everyone so much for listening and, uh, we'll see you in two weeks. Rekka:51:33   Yeah. Leave that rating and review and really appreciate it. Huh?  

ow how to deploy it and learn about real estate. Started with the single-family space. And so, the first thing I bought was a fourplex than a bunch of houses. And then I realized it was too much brain damage in terms of just scaling. Right. I mean it's, having 12 insurance policies, 12 tenants and 12 loans and 12 of everything is kind of a pain. And so, learn about multifamily and then kind of the rest of the history. So, I've been running with that since.   James: Yes. I really disliked, the insurance part of the single family because--   Feras Moussa: Yes.   James: --lot of it expires at different times of the year.   Feras Moussa: That's my biggest pain point honestly and I literally will, I'm willing to pay a premium for a broker that'll just take care of it and I just don't have to think about it because it's just not worth the hassle of thinking through and spending the time and effort there.   James: Yes. Yes. I think you can pay like a monthly is the same amount and it's all automated, but insurance is one thing you have to print out and you have to scan, and you have to do all kinds of things.   Feras Moussa: Yes.   James: So, let's go a bit more into the thought process here before we go into the details of your deals and all that. So, three IT guys, right? I'm also with an electrical engineering background with some software. Why do you think a lot of these IT guys like commercial real estate investing, especially in multifamily?   Feras Moussa: Yeah, I mean.   Ben Suttles: From my perspective, I think it's the numbers right. I think it's-- you come from a kind of an analytical side of the brain, right? And I think in real estate, a lot of it is numbers driven. Now there's a relationship side of the business, right? Which we all have to have. We have to have that side of it to raise equity and obviously work with the brokers and stuff like that, but at the end of the day, it's a numbers game, right? You've got to be able to underwrite the deals. You've got to be able to make, projections, financial projections and all that as numbers and spreadsheet driven. And I think that's a lot of why the IT and engineering guys, get into this space. Also, I think the other thing is too is that allows us to be creative. When we're not able to be creative in some, some respects, whenever you're able to kind of put your stamp on the rehab of a property and improve that and, and kind of get out and roll your sleeves up. That's another thing that we were lacking probably in a lot of our jobs. And so, I think, at least personally for me, that that might be part of the reason why, I don't know, Feras might have another take on it as well.   Feras Moussa: Well, no, I think the numbers things. Definitely one of the biggest factors, but it's also, it's a space that you can learn it yourself, right? Meaning, you know, a lot of engineers are willing to go above and beyond, spend the effort, research, read books and learn it. You can do that in this space and, there's not like an engineering exam at the end of it where you have to do, you can pass. Right?   James: Yes.   Feras Moussa: And so, it's the kind of thing where you can learn it and it makes sense, right? The numbers don't lie. And so, two engineers, right? It's like, you can see a clear path of the progression, right? There's not like a leap of faith any point in time. And then the other part of it too is problem-solving, right? I think all engineers like problem-solving as part of the challenge. And to me, that's what I like about multifamily. It's bigger and harder, right? Sure. I could've probably scaled out a rental portfolio part, really wanted to, but I mean, it's just not fun to buy, hundred thousand-dollar assets, $150,000. It's a lot more fun to do bigger projects, a bigger team, and really, work through each issue as it comes up.   James: Yes. Yes. I mean in my mind is a lot about-- I mean real estates, there's a lot of creative thinking that you need to put on and that's really fun, right? Because you want to, I mean, I'm sure when you guys handle deals, we want to solve that problem. Right?   Feras Moussa: Yes, absolutely.   James: You want to break; I'm going to break that deal. Right? Hey, why? Like for me, I always say, how can I break this deal? Why you should, why you should work for me. Right? That's why I think, I'm sure you guys do that too.   Ben Suttles: I was doing that earlier yesterday, man. Yes, man, [inaudible 13:36], how do you blow up the deal, right? And--   James: How do you blow up the deal? There must be something wrong with this deal. Let's find that out.   Ben Suttles: [crosstalk 13:42].   Feras Moussa: Oh yes that's fun. Let's have a deal that makes sense. It's like, this not right, I'm just going to offer a lower, I might've otherwise because something doesn't make me, go 100%.   James: Yes. If that [inaudible] make sense, you are like, let's say to break it. Something must be wrong and when you can't break it then, then it makes sense. That okay, that's [inaudible 13:58].   Feras Moussa: Yes.   Ben Suttles: That's the one.   Feras Moussa: And then the other part too is that it's a people game, right? I mean, so something, some engineers might not like it, but at least me, I mean nothing. Ben, same. We like it because it's a team effort. It's not one person. It's how do you combine people really get the thing done both on, on the GP side as well as the operations side, right? How do you build rapport with your manager, with your regional, whoever it is? Right. And kind of help accomplish the goals and give them motivated. To me, that's part of the fun.   James: Yes.   Feras Moussa: I guess what we do is like project management on steroids.   Ben Suttles: Feras, if you touch us up on that, that was really interesting to earlier which was the project management piece, which I had forgotten about. I mean a lot of us to come from big, we've done big projects, we've worked with teams and let's be honest, and this is a team sport, right?   James: Absolutely.   Ben Suttles: This is, yes you could maybe be solo and respectful, you've got a team in the background that's helping you accomplish your goal and you've got project management or manage that whole entire process in order to get it to close. And then even after you're closing it, right? In order to asset management or to do the asset management, to do the construction management and for you James too, you do the property management.   James: Okay.   Ben Suttles: All of that stuff is, you're juggling a lot of different pieces and making sure that the ball is continuously moving forward towards that goal. And I think a lot of IT and engineering folks come from that background, understand that. So, once you can kind of segue that into the commercial real estate state space, it's just essentially just project management at the end of the day.   James: Yes. Yes. You one might, throughout my 22 years in the corporate world, I think 16 years I was a manager and I was also a project manager and I was a very good project manager. I need all that translates to this multimillion-dollar business that you're managing, right?   Ben Suttles: Yes.   James: Because to make sure your transactions happen correctly; you need to make sure you communicate to people. And that's what we all learned in project management. But how do you over communicate? How do you make sure people don't mess up? How do you take proactive action to de-risk a project? Right? So that's, that's how the game is played. Even in the commercial real estate with this [crosstalk 16:00].   Ben Suttles: And it's never going to be straight forward. Right? There are always challenges.   James: Yes.   Ben Suttles: So, I mean, that's where, we're those project management skills really kind of come into play because, anybody can run a smooth project, right? And we're nothing ever bad happened, but let's just be honest. There's always something that happens.   James: Yes, yes.   Ben Suttles: And so, you have to, you have to have that, that acumen to be able to, to keep that ball moving forward towards that common goal.   James: Yes. So apart from the, IT education itself, do you guys think that your work experience, the classes that you have been at your workplace and the environment that you have gone through? I mean as given certain edge to you guys as well.   Feras Moussa: I will say absolutely. Like I said, I mean what we do is project management on steroids. Right? And so, having done that for years had-- knowing how to keep track of multiple projects simultaneously. That's another thing too, right? A lot of people will get into the business and they realize like, hey, syndicating start to finish is not a walk in the park. There's a lot that happens, both lending and legal and issues come up and they, it's a lot to keep track of. But then she tried to do two deals at a time. Right. And how would, it's not really two weeks, it's kind of a square, issues. So, I would say absolutely. Right. And then the other thing that we've seen, being on the tech side is how do we differentiate ourselves from other people too, right? How do we, create a better impression for investors? How do you position, everything professionally, right? All of our stuff is mobile friendly. All of our stuff, certain ways. And those are the things that I've brought at least from the tech world, to make sure that we kind of do and do well.   Ben Suttles: Yes, I think, I think efficiencies, right? That you come from that IT engineering background, it's all about productivity, efficiency, how can we automate things and James you probably saw the same thing when he got into space and to completely fracture. A lot of it is backward or outdated and there's a, there's a lot of low hanging fruit stuff, ways that can be improved and I'm sure your team is looking to do that constantly and so are we. And that's all come that comes from our background, right?   James: Background, yes.   Feras Moussa: I told Ben I have to stop myself from wanting to start a software company every few months. Being an entrepreneur and being a software guy, it's like man, this place some of the stuff we do is pretty archaic.   James: Yes.   Ben Suttles: Yes.   Ben Suttles: I think real estate is the last, most, what it called?   Feras Moussa: [crosstalk 18:28].   James: Fragmented industry, you know, that is, they're like something like AI or something is going to take over soon, right. Because there's so much inefficiency.   Ben Suttles: Yes. But it's, you can take it to an extent, but then there's that personal side, that relationship side. Right. And I think that's kind of, that's, that's one of the parts that I took from my former job, which was, a lot of sales and business development work as well. Right. Taking that, that networking, that relationship building side, that building rapport side into this space. But, I mean, I agree. I think there's their software and AI and these types of things are going to automate a lot of that back-office part of the process and maybe even the analysis piece. But there's always going to have to be those two people coming together to make a deal happen, right?   James: Yes.   Ben Suttles: Because ultimately, it's going to be one person or one group and trying to sell on one group trying to buy, and you have to come with some kind of an agreement. Right. And then even after you buy it, right, there's always those relationships with vendors and employees and all those different things that you have to kind of manage to. But anything that we can bring and that we've seen in our past gig where we could make that more efficient here, we're, we're obviously trying to introduce that.   James: Got It. Got It, got it. So, let's go back to the business side of it. So, what are your guys' focus, in terms of market? Right now, currently Atlanta and some cities in Texas, right? Why don't you guys talk about, why did you choose these two markets?   Feras Moussa: Yes. So, in terms of why we chose them, I mean, the same reason you're probably in San Antonio to some degree, right? We're looking for strong, attractive markets that are not a single industry that is growing right. Population and the business side. And then, really the important thing for us to is the yield, right. So that's why we got into San Antonio too, was that we can't find returns in Houston. We look at a lot of bills and use of our base and we don't own anything in Houston, right? We're looking for returns that we can, that that will actually, you are looking for deals that'll give actual turns, foreign investors. That's also why we don't look in Dallas, right? Price points are too high that you having to pay so much that you basically have no yield on the deal. And so that's kind of what really got us into Atlanta. We got us into San Antonio as well and yes, Beaumont's kind of a slight story, but those are the things that we look for. And then in terms of future deals, right? If future markets, so, we've really kind of manage to, I would say streamline a lot more of our acquisition pipeline, right? In terms of underwriting deals, identifying deals and really keeping a pipeline going. And so, what that's allowed us to do, especially with a fulltime asset manager now, is we can look at a lot more deals. So, we've kind of identified two markets that we want to get into, hopefully, this year. Orlando in North Carolina. And that just, just to give us, just to keep our pipeline going. Right. We can keep looking at more and more and more deals. Yes, we'll hopefully be finding something that makes sense.   Ben Suttles: Absolutely.   James: So how do you guys choose your market? So, like now you say Orlando and not Carolina, right? So, I have a lot of stats on Orlando because I know it's growing very quickly. So, let's take, not Carolina. Why did you guys identify? Not Carolina?   Ben Suttles: I mean, I think, I think all of it boils down to population growth, job growth. We also like to find areas and that's not every single market, but I like to see a good concentration of different universities and colleges as well because I feel like a lot of the bigger corporations are going to follow where they're going to have a good funnel of potential students to take from it as well. So, we'll look in college towns as well too, because, but let's be honest, North Carolina, it's got, the research triangle, it's got a ton of universities. And, it's calling to be called the Wall Street of the south. The problem with North Carolina is that we're not the only ones looking there. So, it's, it's pretty competitive there too. But it's got a lot of those good data points that we like to see in terms of population economic growth--   James: Okay.   Ben Suttles: --that you see in Texas and in Georgia. And really, we are, we look at in Texas for quite some time and we found Georgia was very, very similar in a lot of ways to Texas. And so that's the reason we started kind of focusing on Atlanta as well. But it ultimately boils down to, is there enough population job growth to continue to drive demand for the workforce housing that we're, that we're looking for. So, people are always like, well, you're not renting out to fortune 500 folks. So why do you care about that? I'm saying, well, the ancillary service companies and service jobs, they're going to feed into this white-collar job is what we're looking for. So, if you don't have any of the fortune 500 stuff rights, then there's not any real need for a lot of the infrastructure where a lot of these people are going to be working. So, when you, when you look at it in Texas, when you look at it and Georgia, right? One of those people is there. So there has to be serviced workforce type jobs that are going to have to be feeding into that. And that's why we like those markets. And, we see a lot of that same type of thing happening in Orlando and some other markets and Florida and as well as North Carolina. And we've looked in Tennessee, we've looked in some other spots as well. From us we've got so much deal flow coming in that in order for us to be a little bit more strategic work as a team, we've decided to focus on about three or four major markets and then just go deep on those and then we can go horizontal and find out that markets in the future.   James: Got It. So, let's say now today you're getting a deal, right? Let's say from North Carolina, what other steps that you guys take? So today let's say, I mean how do you guys get deals nowadays. Is it through broker relationship, off-market, on the market? How are you guys sorting out the deal flow?   Ben Suttles: Yes, everything in between. A lot of it is brokers. A lot of is people that know what's his buyers, people that you know, we will get the deal closed, right? Whether it's the broker that knows it and they might know. Seller. One thing I tell every broker is like, hey, if you have a deal that you don't have the exclusive on and you need someone to make a pre-emptive offer to try to get that locked down. Like, where are your guys? Right? So, you find ways to motivate the broker is motivated. Other people that know someone that knows someone. So, we, I mean really deals come in all shapes and forms. And so, for us, the biggest volume is definitely the brokers, but it's really, it's not about the ones that they just email outlasted, right? It's really about the follow-up deals that maybe are near, getting to the finish line and getting the finish line in terms of the-- in terms of the marketing, but they haven't had any such interest or for whatever reason. Right. So, I think that's important. So, once the deal comes through in terms of the analysis side of LLC, dig into the P12, dig into the OEM, but more importantly, talk to them. Sorry, go ahead.   James: I'm just saying, what do you look for first in the deal? Do you get a-- so you get a deal, what do you look for? What are the, what do you, what's your sniff test because I --   Ben Suttles: Yes.   James: underwrite everything, right? What's the sniff test?   Feras Moussa: I'll tell you what my first sniff test. I look at what the average rents are and what their price point is, and then I can deduce from that, right.   James: Okay.   Feras Moussa: Is this going to be anywhere. And really what I'm doing kind of mentally ballparking what the cap might be. Right? But really, I'm looking at what are the average rents and what does the purchase price. Right. And then yield. Is there, are they close enough that I think that there's some meat on the bone, right? It's really what it boils down to. I'll give you a real example. There was a deal in Atlanta that I-- so North Atlanta, Atlanta has a really unique market. North Atlanta is really expensive. South Atlanta is the complete opposite. There's a deal that came through on the northern side and I think the average rents on that deal were like, 850 $900. So, I'm okay, this one might be at a reasonable price point. Right? And so, I'm like in my head, mentally I'm like, okay, let me call the broker. If this is 80 maybe 90 you know, there's a deal to be had here. Hey, call the broker. And it's 130 a door, right? So, I mean, that already instantly ruled it out. And so, you're really looking for some of those kinds of low hanging fruit just to figure out, okay, is this still even in the ballpark for us to look into it anymore.   Ben Suttles: Yes, absolutely. And I think the first sniff test James is really, I mean then the location of it too, right? Do you know what I mean? We're getting the deal flow and these places that we want to be, and we've identified different pockets within those submarkets that we want to be in. So, if it's not within one of those pockets and we're automatically, putting that to the side. Now that doesn't mean that there's not a deal there. Right.   James: Yes.   Ben Suttles: So those are usually kind of the maybe deals and we're, we want to kind of circle back maybe we're bored or something. Let's do that one-- -   Feras Moussa: Exactly, whether we are bored, we go back and look at those deals.   Ben Suttles: Yes, we'll go back and take a look at those. Right. But we're looking for that are going to be the net, that those are some market pockets, right? That we like. And then from there, right, just like what Feras was saying, you can almost, you can almost immediately tell if it's going to work. Right. And you pencil out so many deals. I mean, we, at this point we've analysed hundreds and hundreds of deals. So, you can on them almost look and say, oh, that's not going to work for us. Right. Just based on what they're asking for. And you can also kind of tell that to, by the price per pound versus, sometimes the median income of the area. Right. I mean, are you going to be able to achieve the rent that it's going to, it's going to take to make that deal work. And if you're going to be maxing out your median income, then it's not going to work either.   Ben Suttles: So, a lot of the things that we look at, population growth, we look at job growth, all those things too. But one of the things that we also look at as the median income, right? And a lot of these is workforce housing, right? So, I mean, you look at, what's the, what's the average rent? We're usually doing the three-x income test. Whenever we're taking perspective tenants in, right? Like everybody should, and then you determine, what the median income level is and if you're going to be maxing that out, you're above that, then the first sign that something is going wrong, let's get ready to skip. They're going to stop paying rent, right? So, you want to make sure that you're under that, right? You don't want to; you don't want to be at the top of the market. Yes. Maybe they can keep up with it for a month or two where they're going to get behind. And so very, very cognizant of that.   Feras Moussa: And to add those, it's not that, if it's a lower income area, we won't buy a deal very well. It's really these are just kind of rules of thumb. And then from that, you start to work back, okay, well if it's a lower income area, can assume they are economic occupancy is going to be much slower. So, you should underwrite it that way. Right? Cause there's a deal to be had anywhere, right? I mean I'll buy any deal at the right price point, right? Assuming as long as it's, to me at least this has been new instead of a growing market. Right. And that's not a deal at f four worry about the city, essentially no one even wanted to live in that general area. But in terms of price points, in terms of, average incomes, all of that, it's really, again, depending on what price point are we buying it at.   James: So, let's say the rent and the price seems reasonable right? At the first sniff test, what's your next level sniff test? What do you guys do?   Feras Moussa: Then and actually started this. The thing I do before that is actually called the broker and just get there [inaudible 29:18].   James: Okay.   Feras Moussa: Right? And that's the first, usually, right? Because a lot of times there's more to this story, right? Is it, is it a partnership where you know, one of the sellers passed away and they're looking, you know, they're a little bit more motivated or is it a deal that just, the Bro, I've had brokers a little bit tell me these sellers are terrible operators, right? And you can kind of, and if you have a relationship with a broker, there'll be honest with you about that aspect. Right? Brokers are all, a lot of times brokers, I don't want to say always, but there'll always be, a lot of times we'll say, yeah, you know, you could do this and this and get, a $200 rent pop. Right?   James: Yes.   Feras Moussa: Take that with a grain of salt. But I'm looking for something that's kind of that ancillary information to help the deuce. Like, Hey, is there an actual opportunity to do, what's the value add that we can do is we can kind of take that into what we just talked about. Then kind of once, like you said, once you know the numbers make sense or the deals make sense, then you start to dig in and near. That's where we really do just to, go down to the numbers, right. Look at the t 12, look at where they are today on expenses. Look at where we think we will be on expenses. Where, what does the rent currently, right? What's the spread on just the rent, the market rents versus what their marketing right. Today. I mean kind of, we really starting to put the bigger picture together. Right. And then understanding is, hey, does this make sense at a high level? Right? Yes. That's us. Sorry, go ahead.   Ben Suttles: Oh, I was just going to say, what I mean, we don't even look at the OEM. Right. Do you know what I mean? We're going straight from our perspective, right. That just use your, you'll get, you'll get the skinny from the broker, right? Because they'll usually-- but the marketing packages is the marketing package. Right. And I feel like that sometimes skews people's numbers when they look in. Concentrate on that a little bit too closely. So, it's always best than if it passes your initial test and you talked to the broker and there might be something there and you just go straight to the spreadsheet analysis. Right. Because, I mean if you start trying to dissect what they're going-- what they have in terms of pro forma income and expenses, then you start getting that none of those numbers in your mind. And guess what, there, they're making those numbers work. So, we always, we always go straight to that and then only then do I then look at the OEM and I see how far apart we are. And usually, it's pretty significant. But, it's those classic sales tips, like, below replacement costs and all of these things that they love to say, that makes it sound so sexy.   James: Yes, its--   Ben Suttles: At the end of the day and it has to pencil out. It's all about the numbers.   James: Yes. I remember in one of the deals I never look at the OM until I close because I need a logo for that property. And I say where is the logo and then I called the broker, you understand the OM, I say yes.   Feras Moussa: Oh, you had the floor plan. Yes, we had that for the floor plan. You go back to the OM and grab the floor plan that [inaudible 31:56]--   James: Exactly.   Feras Moussa: --time and effort on.   James: Yes, yes, we did a floor plan and the logo from the OM, that's it.   Ben Suttles: There you go.   James: So, it's interesting. And so, the type of deals that you guys do, I mean, where do you categorize it? Value add deep value add or [inaudible 32:14] yield play or core type of tails.   Feras Moussa: I mean right now we're focused on value add. I mean we would like to do a more, really to me, the ideal deal for us now or given where we are given, our network, et cetera. It's really kind of that B minus space. Right? We've done the heavy value add, it's a lot of work. Right? And those skills have worked out. They performed, but for us, I mean it's just she consumes you, right to some degree. And so, we're trying to less of those and we try to vary it up. Right. Always have a value add going on, having a stabilized going on. Just cause from a bandwidth perspective, right, we can kind of handle one at a time, but we don't want to take on three big value add the one time because then he would get lost in that. And so, I think for us we're typically in that C plus B minus space is really the focus for us.   Ben Suttles: Yes, yes.   Feras Moussa: One day we'll do an ADL but not in, but not-- but it's about matching it to the right equity pool. Right. If we have equity that's okay with the lesser returns. Right. We can go do a B plus or a minus. But so far, we've been kind of in the C plus B minus space.   Ben Suttles: Yes. Yes.   James: Got It. Got It. So, what about that, that strategy? Do you guys do only agency Loan, Bridge, Bridge through an agency?   Ben Suttles: I think we're doing all this. It's really deals dependent. Right. Do you know what I mean? I think the bridge has gotten a little bit of a bad rap. I mean there's, there obviously you have to be careful with it, right? You have to understand that your exit strategy, you have to be able to hit those targets in terms of, especially if it's a value add, tell him the hair on it, which is, it's going to with a bridge, right? You got to be able to hit those timetables in terms of your construction, your rehab in order to refi out of it quickly. And then at the best price point that you can write, because obviously, you don't want to have to bring money to the table. So, we'll do a little bit of the bridge, but for the most part, where everyone, just like every other smart operator, you're looking for agency debt when you can. But at the end of the day, we're looking to maximize returns for our investors. And so sometimes, going bridge versus agency has been a better way in order to do that. And people understand that there's a little bit higher of risk tolerance with those. But we always get a three-year term with two years' extension. So, at the end of the day, it's still five years on a bridge that, it's not something like an 18-month deal. So, I think that that gives people a little bit of, they feel a little bit better about it as well. But we've done agency all the way up to 12 years too. So, it's a little bit about, just depends on the deal.   Feras Moussa: Yes. For anyone listening, I mean I think we have a Ph.D. in the agency space. Unfortunately, we've had issues that people that do 50 deals never hit. So, we've seen it all. And so, if anyone has any questions, feel free to reach out. But we've seen the good, the bad and the ugly on the dead space. So, it's, you kind of, you work through those problems, right? If you get the closing, which is the good news, but then you kind of learn from it and you know, start to figure out what are the things that could be learned from this to basically avoid the situation in the future. Right. We've had, we've really seen a variety of things. Unfortunately--   James: Oh, let's talk about--   Feras Moussa: --that's where Ben lost all this hair.   Ben Suttles: Just one. Just one lender, which I'll tell if you want to email me, I'll tell you which linear it was.   James: Okay, tell me the worst story with an agency, just let's just go--   Feras Moussa: The worst agency story. I'll tell you one, and this is one near and to you James. So, it's in San Antonio.   James: Okay.   Feras Moussa: San Antonio deal its a, a deal that pencils in really well. And for those of you that know on the agency side, right? With a standing loan, you can do what's called fully delegated, which means that fanny lets the dust lender, which in our case could be Arbor, could be haunted, it can be any variety of them. For us, it was an Arbor deal and lets them operate in the wrong capacity, right. To some degree. And so, there's kind of a box. As long as they're within the box, Arbor could approve the deal, no questions asked. Well yes, we're like three weeks from closing pretty much at the finish line. Money's in the bank. Well, we're already looking at the next field that we had to go on and then kind of going back, what happened was that because it's the San Antonio deal and the deal pencils in really, really well, right from a financial perspective, the lender said, well hey, we can go get your five years IO. And we didn't think much of it. Right. It was like, okay, that's fine. Well, at least we'll back out to where we are today because we run the road at one-year IO. Well, long story short, this deal essentially used to be on a watch list three years ago. The sellers are only deal in San Antonio. They struggled with it. Plus, it was kind of whenever they're in the midst of a lot of rehabs. So, he got on the watch list, it wasn't on the watch list the past few years. And that whole you, that market better than we do James. And that whole area has really turned around from where it was three years ago. But guess what, it was already flagged by Fannie and they just wanted to essentially get it off their books. Right. And so, this is something very, I actually did this just the other day where I, I was talking to a broker about a deal and asked him was the saber on a watch list.   Feras Moussa: That's something I've learned to ask now because and what sucks about it is that once a lender, a dus lender, this gets Arbor went to fanny, right? Once Fannie times in, Fannie is the authority, right?   James: Correct.   Ben Suttles: Versus if we would have just not ever done that, we could have closed the deal agency with Arbor, no questions asked. And so, it's a very unique situation. I don't know anyone that's actually ever encountered that. Right. But these kinds of things do happen. And so just knowing that they can happen, figure on how much risk you want to take because we would have been happy with what we had-- what we could have closed. Right. We were happy with the one-year IO. That was great. That was fine. But it's your kind of get a little bit more than that and then now completely bag of worms. So.   James: Yes, I learn, even I learned about this watch list, last week when was looking at another dealer then someone says, Oh, I backed out because of watch list, I say what is that? Right? Then we realize there are so many other issues with the deal. Right? So that's crazy. Yes. I mean for listeners, just FYI most dus lenders, they have one-year authority on a delegated underwriting. So within, if they give one-year IO, they don't have to go back to Fannie Mae and get approval. But once they go above that they have to go to Fannie Mae. And a lot of things can change when you go to Fannie Mae.   Feras Moussa: Yes. So, I have learned that there are different tiers. Right? So, there's the tier two, tier three. So, if you're at higher leverage that can only give you one. But if you're willing to go down to 65% they can actually approve 5 years IO, no questions.   James: Okay.   Feras Moussa: So, you start to learn. And again, why did I learn that from a different deal? So, start to understand really the mechanics of what's going on behind the scene. And this is where having the right mortgage broker makes all the difference, right? They can help steer you in the right direction and help catch some of these. So, I mean for the-- for the watch list, the sellers were actually more pissed that we were about the whole, they didn't think that was going to be an issue in terms of us getting the next one. Right.   James: Okay.   Feras Moussa: And they never thought to just close it. You don't think it's going to be an issue.   Ben Suttles: No, they thought it was off too.   Feras Moussa: Yes.   Ben Suttles: But, do you know what I mean? I think there's that just like, like our earlier part of the conversation. Right. You know, we're project managing these things, things are going to pop up. So, we were able to make it through that process--   James: Right.   Ben Suttles: --and still come out on top in terms of the debt. But yes, I mean we're always looking to maximize returns and risk and minimize risk for our investors. And I think that having this different background and different debt products and having a good experience with some of these different lenders really gives us a good broad overview of the debt market and which deals are going to make sense where, and I think that that's huge when you're looking at who to invest your money with, because know some people, let's be honest. So, they'll just go straight to Fannie, if it's not Fannie or if it's not Fannie then I'm not doing it. Right.   James: Correct.   Ben Suttles: But I think sometimes you're missing out on opportunities there as well.   James: So, wasn't, like three weeks before closing, didn't you guys had a rate lock at that time?   Feras Moussa: No, we're supposed to [inaudible 40:01] lock a few days later.   James: Oh okay.   Feras Moussa: Like little, they're just waiting on the final. Oh, because they went to Fannie, Fannie kind of asked-- this is where really, I think we could have-- it's about positioning the story. Right. Again, I think the lender just went in thinking that it's going to be easy down the middle because really that's what they told us. Right?   James: Okay.   Feras Moussa: They didn't even bother. We had a great story for the deal, for the sponsorship team. They tried to do it retroactively and kind of wants Fannie comes in it's really hard to change. But we were literally at the point of rate locking and getting, being done with the steel. Like we will do, so.   James: Yes. [crosstalk 40:36].   Feras Moussa: You do full 360 and charge full 180 and change things and kind of Redo. So, in my mind, it was really, we did, it took us to close if get that deal done.   James: Yes, it's, yes, it's, it's a day just to do it at the end because you're almost at the closing table. Right. So,   Ben Suttles: Yes.   Feras Moussa: Yes. So, so in that situation, just maybe to complete the story, right. The seller realized kind of what happened. They gave us more time, right? They gave us another 30 days they knew that wasn't really for lack of use or lack of anything that we did. And so, we're able to buy more time and then redo the process and kind of, get to where we needed to be.   James: So, did you do a different loan?   Feras Moussa: Yes. So that one we call back every investor because I mean we basically what we did Arbor realized the mistake that they made, which was they should not have gone to the lender, tell Fannie, they should have just closed. And so, they basically gave us a balance sheet loan, right? Which is like a bridge loan on their books that essentially, the short term just to get it off of Fannie's book, --   James: Okay.   Ben Suttles: --then in nine months. Right. So, for us, we kind of turned it into a value add reprice scenario. Right.   James: Okay.   Feras Moussa: And so, when that case, we will, nine months, 12 months, somewhere around there. Right. We're also pushing our NOI as hard as you can. We'll refi, pull equity out and get back into a panty permanent loan.   James: Got it.   Feras Moussa: And so, but the deal changed, right? And so, we had to call every investor, tell every investor here's what changed, here's what happened. Then thankfully pretty much everyone stayed in the deal. Right? So that kind of-- for us that it's a sigh of relief. But also, it's like, everyone just doubled down on us. Right? So, we're--   James: Right.   Ben Suttles: --going to get babysat through the finish line.   James: Yes, the amount of pressure for you to go, on the contact to rate lock it so much. Right. So, I mean, I don't know, I mean-- there's a lot of pressure on, responsibility. You have so much money tied, and you are under the gun and you have all your reputation out there. You are doing the deal, investors are looking at you, you are to be a leader. You have very strong leaders. So.   Ben Suttles: Yes.   James: Yes, it's a lot of work.   Feras Moussa: Absolutely.   James: So, kind of back to value add, right? So, you guys do value add strategy. So, what's your, what do you think is the most valuable value add?   Ben Suttles: I think, ultimately, what tenants care most about, right? I mean, whenever you're doing value add, unfortunately, you have to cure a lot of [inaudible 42:52]. You have to do a lot of things that you not going to get the best return on your investment on. But the two things that tenants care about, first being their interiors. So, what was actually in my unit, the second thing that they care about is amenities, right. Probably a distance second. Most of the time with the workforce housing, they're caring about what their units look like. And I think that's where you're going to get the best return on your investment when you're doing value add. And then you can obviously update and add on amenities as a secondary thing to that. But unfortunately, with those value adds, you got to do things like roofs and HVAC replacement and other things that just people just say, hey if I'm renting from you, I expect that to be working. So, you know, but you might be spending a hundred or two hundred grand on some of this stuff, right? So, your return on investment is almost nothing, but you have to do it. So, you've got to balance those two things, right? You've got to work in curing that deferred maintenance along with how do I push the NOI and the revenue side by, really updating the property for the way that the tenants are looking at it. So, I mean that's kind of how we look at every value-add play that we do. A combination of those two things.   Feras Moussa: So, James, is your question really specific about ROI? Like what are the things that we putting kind of deferred maintenance aside, what other things would we do to really try to maximize our return?   James: Yes, other than deferred maintenance, like the roof and all the big stuff [crosstalk 44:21].   Feras Moussa: Yes, so I mean it's, its properties specific, right? It's really depending on the asset, what it looks like currently and what is the market doing right now? That said from our experience, right? The most common thing, flooring, two-tone paint, right? And pimping out the kitchen some degree. Right? And you can go as crazy as replacing all the cabinets or you really replacing the front or even just putting fixtures, right? Like for us, fixtures are definitely cheap. Easy to do. It gives a different, pop to the thing, right? Flooring almost always, painted and really two-tone paint. It's important. And the other thing too that we like to do is really putting a backsplash. You can do backsplashes with this kind of stick on backsplash, really, really cheap to do per unit. And it gives the kitchen, which is usually known the seventies, eighties build kitchen, a bit of Pop, right? It gives it something to modernize it. Right? We didn't go as far as putting granted in. Right. But you are putting that in kind of coupled with a resurfacing. It actually looks pretty good. And then, the obvious is white and black appliances. Right?   James: So, let's say--   Feras Moussa: And that's all, white, black or aluminium.   James: Let's say how the interiors, right. So, let's say you guys lost for some reason you thought you had 100% of your interior budget, but now you need like 50% of the budget. What would you focus on, on the interior?   Ben Suttles: Yes, if the property needed any flooring or paint. Right? [crosstalk 45:38] Those are important things to think.   James: Okay.   Feras Moussa: Yes, I mean, you got appliances too right, but I mean appliances, you're going to be two x in your interior budgeted, just adding those in. But a lot of people they take, there's a price difference between white and black appliances are really not, but there's a perception that they're a little bit higher quality. So, you can even do that too. Right? You got to replace the appliances, but you don't have a whole big budget for that. You can just go from white to black to and I think that adds a nice pop too.   James: Yes, that's a really good point. I mean I realize a lot of times if you give them even white, really nice appliances, people are happy. Right?   Ben Suttles: No. Yes, you can do, right. It's-- I mean, but like, you'll see people like, they're just ecstatic that they've got black appliances. Right now, the market is about the same in terms of pricing.   James: Correct.   Ben Suttles: So, but it's just a perception thing or just, like I said, backslash 150 bucks.   James: Yes.   Ben Suttles: [crosstalk 46:38].   Feras Moussa: Let me turn the question around to you, James. Would you, the same question to you, right, would you do the same thing, or would you do something else?   James: So, we, so for me, I think my most valuable value add would be just giving them good management, right? So, there are so many bad operators out there, which is mismanaging not respecting the tenants, not taking care of it. So, we just want to make sure, really good management that's on the management side. But if you go back to the interiors, I would say, of course, we do the appliances and we do the painting and flooring. That's what we would, I would say the most, so, but I think, a lot of people just love having good management people who take care of them. Everything--   Ben Suttles: Oh, absolutely. I mean, they want to feel comfortable and who miss their right. People that understand what's going on. I mean, that's to me, and that's why for all of our properties, we're big people, putting, doing parties, doing tenant events, pretending retention vents. Because from the operations side, right. This is, you have the backdoor and you have the front door, right? You don't have people renewing, right. You're going to have delinquency problems, not a delinquency problem, you're going to have an oxygen problem, right? And so really keeping people happy, renewing, right. Well, then it makes it easier on the front end to start the push friends, right? Because you have people that are enjoy working there, living there. Right. You know, for another 10, $20. Sure enough, it's more than the cost of moving. Right. And so that's absolutely.   James: Yes. I think at the end of the day the tenants just want to be felt appreciated. That you just-- so many properties out there. You don't have to be being mismanaged.   Ben Suttles: Yes, clean, quality, safe housing, man. I mean, it seems so easy and the way that I describe it, but so many operators, I've just run some of these properties in the ground and they don't take care of it. Right? And so, the tenants, therefore, don't consider home and they don't take care of it. So when you get a good operator, I know you get a good management company in there and they showed that they're taking care of the property, then by default you're going to get more loyal 10 tenants, you're going to have people that are going to be more apt to take a renewal increase, cause they like, they like coming home again. Right? It's home.   James: Yes.   Ben Suttles: Versus just a place just to sleep.   James: Yes. Yes. I think one of the episodes, maybe episode five or six, I interviewed, Addie Lauren from California strategic alliance and he had been doing this for 30 years, more than 1 billion in a transaction. And he told me very simple, clean, basic and functional quality is what his motto is that's it. Right?   Ben Suttles: You don't have to get; you don't have to be creative about it. Right. I mean, you know, the space that we plan is essentially workforce housing. I mean, across our whole entire portfolio, our average rents are less than a thousand bucks, right. So, folks aren't looking for crazy amenities and crazy things even in their interiors. They just want a good quality place to come home to and then, and the management side is a big piece of that too.   James: Correct, correct, correct.   Ben Suttles: Yes, she bought up a good point.   Feras Moussa: And then another thing too with good management, right. You get lower delinquency. So, for us, I mean that's night and day. We had a deal that we, one of our heavy value add deals where essentially where we were, I went back and looked at numbers July versus where we are today. We have three times more revenue collected than we will, we did before total, like literally straight revenue you and that's a combination of, cutting back the delinquency, bringing units, align, updating. But I mean, it’s, once people know that it's, someone taking care of the property and enjoying it, people want to stay there. All right. People are eating $200 rep push because guess what, this place has been completely turned around. It's more family oriented and even just bringing more families on board helps to come back for delinquency. So, for us really looking at how do you build that community and some people really cheap about it, but like, hosting these parties is you, I mean, do the math, right? How much does it cost to go get a hundred hot dog and a hundred burgers? Right?   James: Yes.   Feras Moussa: I mean it's very, very cheap, right? To be there and grill it out, have like a little patio, you know, a party, whatever it is. These things are almost, you know, half of the units rented a month, right. It's kind of thing. And so, they're almost rounding errors, errors where we are, but guess what? It changes the dynamics in the property. And so, I mean, some people don't really-- people are very short-sighted. I see. And really it has a much bigger kind of longer-term impact.   James: Yes.   Ben Suttles: And I think going along with the value add, right? I mean, you know, a lot of what we're doing is repositioning the property too, which is kind of where you're going with this James. Is bringing in better management. You're getting a better tenant profile at the same time too. So that's part of the value-add strategy as well, so once you, and once you show them that you care, you've got tenants in there that care than the properties just starts performing. There's a whole-- the energy shifts are palpable. Do you know what I mean? You go from a bad energy deal to a very good energy deal and you have less delinquency. Yes. Better occupancy people more apt to take a renewal increase and you can, you can rent that out more easily because people that prospective tenants that are walking around fuel that same thing too. So that's a huge part of what we do. We don't like to focus the value add just on the what the aesthetic of the property to, it's how you manage it and tenants that you have in there as well. A huge part of it.   James: So, you guys operators, which is the definition. What I mean is very active asset management because you know the details of what's happening on the side by side. Right. So, is that a correct assumption? Right? So.   Ben Suttles: Absolutely.   Feras Moussa: Yes, absolutely.   James: How do you guys manage this third-party property management companies?   Feras Moussa: Man, that's, that's part of the secret sauce. But I mean, it's really is nothing to it. There's nothing secret about it. So, we have an asset manager now that we've brought in who very experienced, 20 plus years if families a property, he manages family really. And so that's starting to help, but we plan to keep a pulse in general on what's going on in every deal. And so, for us, it's really about putting systems in place with each of your property managers, right? And having accountability. Right? And so, we have not brought in property management in house, but we've been successful with managing our property managers. Right? Yes. And it's a partnership, right? It's not like they're your employee. You really need to get on the level of like where they understand like, hey, we're partnering, we're growing together. Right? And so, they've seen that, and you know, yes. Identify the good property managers from the batch. So, there's a whole betting cycle. I don't want to get too far into, but really, we have the weekly calls, we have the weekly reports come in at a certain time. We have certain expectations that within a few days we expect them to follow up with hearing all the action items and did these all get done? Yes or no? Why not? Right? And how do we, I can keep them accountable, so.   Ben Suttles: Yes, it's all about obviously keep it to an agenda, keep into the processes that we put in place to templates and checklists. And we're very upfront when we get into a partnership with these property management companies that this is what we expect, that this is when we expect it. Right. And then we, like we said, we keep them accountable through--   Feras Moussa: And this is the format that we expect, that these are the numbers that we need and sent out.   James: Okay.   Feras Moussa: Just to help us track everything the way we want. And then you learn from it. Right. We're not perfect. It's not, it's an iterative process, right. Anytime we identify something that we can improve from one property manager, we applied to the portfolio. The nice thing is really is that having different property managers, we see the strengths and weaknesses of each property manager and you figure out how do we make them all better and so what things can we do across the board to make everything better?   Ben Suttles: Yes.   James: So, can you name like three things that you guys always look out for in the property management performance? When you realize that someone of these three things is not going well, things are not going right.   Feras Moussa: Oh Man. I would say renewals is the lowest hanging fruit. Look and understand what's going on in renewals and how important it is because early renewals are indicative of a lot of other things. Are they following up with tenants for the renewal? Right. Did they really? That's just a-- that's the number that you can kind of look at and realize that there must be other problems going on. I would say that's my answer. I don't know about you, Ben.   Ben Suttles: No, I think, yes, I think you're right, man. Totally. Yes. I think my biggest, my biggest hanging out in delinquency because it's like that's the properties money. Like you know, go out there, how are you going to collect the rent that is owed? And so, when you start seeing that slipping and we're increasing, that's my big red flag that hey, there's something going on here, right? As our management on site, not, not doing their job, or are we getting bad tenants in there that aren't capable of paying the rent that we're asking of them may be what's the, there's a, there's usually a bigger problem going on, but yes, I mean all of these, these metrics we expect on our Monday morning report. And so, we're looking at each of these things weekly and we're also having follow-up calls throughout the week to either our asset management or asset manager or us or having calls with the property manager to track these things. So, it's not like a weekly thing. And that we don't have any kind of insight into what's happening for the rest of the week. If there's a challenge, we're having a follow-up call that week about it as well.   James: Okay. So, do you convert like renewal to percentage and look at, give that as a goal, that what you guys delinquency at two percentage and give that as a goal?   Feras Moussa: It's a balancing act depending on how hard you're pushing. Right? So, it's not like you can just say, hey, we expect 50% renewals across the board. I think it's really, it's deal specific and I mean we're looking at renewals, we're looking at least as we're looking at delinquency, right? We're looking at how much traffic came in versus how much leases got closed and then going in and really both on leases, we didn't close. What's the story? What's the story? What's the story? Sometimes there are cases where you, maybe you, no, you can go save that, that person. Similarly, on the delinquency, we go through what's this person's story? Are they going to pay? Cause really in Atlanta, our delinquency is higher than it isn't and Texas, right? It's just by nature of the market. And so, you, you kind of need to be more flexible in one market versus the other. And so really go through and understand what's the story behind me. Just like whenever we, you asked me earlier about the properties, how we analyse it, you're looking for that story. And so, we talked through each one of these and figure out what makes sense to kind of do moving forward. Because to us, it is very different between different properties.   Ben Suttles: Yes, and I, I would say targeted for delinquency, right? It's always zero. And do you know what I mean? So, the property management companies will say, oh yes, we got zero across our whole portfolio, I'm like, yes right. Do you know what I mean? Not, not the workforce housing stuff. So, you got to be realistic. But I would say your target, there's probably one to 2%, you know, on a stabilized property if you're dealing in the workforce housing space that we are and so that's usually the metric that we're pushing towards. But on the renewal side too. One thing I want to point out, right? When you're doing a heavy value add and you've got a lot of interior budget to kind of burn through and you have units that you need to update too, right? You're not going to be chasing after those folks as aggressively as you would on a stabilized property because maybe you don't have a lot of down units are a lot of vacancies and you need to free up, you know, units actually update them, right? So, you're not going to be as aggressive in renewing those folks. So, we've been able to connect like Feras says, right? I mean, you don't want to, you're not going to burn that bridge completely. So, you're constantly looking at occupancy, versus how much, how many units are we supposed to be turning a month in order to hit that target of, 60, 70, 80 units a year. Right. Because people have, people aren't moving out. What are we going to do? We can't sit on the money and there's usually a finite amount of time that we can, we can actually use that cash. So.   Feras Moussa: To expand on Ben's point too. It's almost like, we have a deal where we almost went the opposite. We don't want renewal. And what I mean by that is that one of our deals in Atlanta, we've pushed rents an insane amount on this deal. Like we're probably up 30% honestly, you know, 30 40% and we still have 98% occupants are choke when they're property managers at one day on the call, it felt to 97 and a half. And then, we called her out on it like, Oh, you're at 97 and a half, you're not a 98% anymore. And she's like, no, no, I just had someone who fucking renewed. She's back at 98, but in that deal, we have interior budgets that we need to go spend. We were literally just sitting on the side-lines. Right. Trying to, so you were kind of that balancing act is because we knew what was below market. Right. And figure out, where can we land on to where we have some people not renewing and we can go in and actually spend the money to even get, you know, that better push.   James: Yes. I think you need to look for where is the base rank, where's the base rank before you really go and spend all that rehab money. Otherwise, you can't be spending, spending, spending.   Ben Suttles: Exactly.   James: You don't know where's your base. Where is your starting point? Right. So, yes, I've had properties where we didn't even spend, we have the money yet, but we already bumped up just because people like it just because we are just a better operator than the previous guy. Right. So, --   Ben Suttles: And you'll get that. Right. Do you know what I mean? You'll just, you're amazed that how much they'll take it on renewal too. And that's great. You know, I mean, I just think it's a balancing act sometimes, but yeah, you have that, you have to kind of see where the market is and, and obviously be strategic with those dollars as well.   James: Yes, correct. Correct. That's right. So, can you give us some advice on how do you choose third-party property management? Because you guys are going in multiple markets, right? How would you give them expectations? Because a lot of, I'm sure a lot of property management company don't like, active asset managers. I couldn't control, [inaudible 59:57] I guess.   Ben Suttles: Well, hey now. [crosstalk 01:00:01].   Feras Moussa: Ben. I think, yes, I think.   James: [inaudible 01:00:04].   Feras Moussa: Well I will say though all of our property managers literally, you ask them, they say we're one of their favourites.   James: Oh okay.   Feras Moussa: So, let's not because we're active or inactive. [crosstalk 01:00:15]. Well, it's, we're doing maybe some of it, but it's more so that we're realistic. Right. I think what I was surprised to hear from them as a lot of people will just sell their property may, here's your budget, here's what you have to go, you know, accomplish. And sometimes it's not realistic. Right. I said before any of your deals because we've already worked on a budget with a property manager, we have an agreement on what that looks like, what the plan is, and we're not just picking numbers out of a hat just to make our deal work. Right. And really kind of do it the other way around. And then, yes, whenever issues come up, we're both, I mean, I hope people on the audience, I get this impression. Ben and I are pretty level headed, pretty easy to work with. And so, they understand things happen. And so, the property management companies, at least they enjoy because we're easy to get a hold of. We understand what's going on the deal. And we're realistic. And so, because I've asked them and pretty much all of them have said that we're one of, we're one of their favourites. Right. And so, --   James: Okay.   Feras Moussa: Now, that said, maybe to answer your question, Ben, do you want to answer? Do you want me to answer?   Ben Suttles: I mean, I, I think, I mean, you've got to be stern, but at the same time, you can have a friendly relationship with them at the same time. Right. But I think it's all about setting the right expectations and just betting them in general. I think it's, it's all you usually start off with referrals. Right?   James: Okay.   Ben Suttles: But I think some of the big things are as, go take a look at some of their properties too. Go secret shop those deals, so you're going to say, okay, hey you, you're a good referral on whatever market. Right. Give me three of the assets that you, and then you fly out there and you go shopping. What does the property look like? Is it clean? Is the management, is the leasing agent and the manager, are they friendly, are they knowledgeable of the property? Are they good or are they leasing it properly? All of these things go back to the property management side and, and as long as that's, that's kind of coalesces with what you've heard about them and everything. That is good. Obviously, the fee has to be online and those roles have, the references have to be there. But I think the biggest, the biggest asset test for us is, vetting the deals that they currently have, and do we like what we see, and they call them out, right? I mean, if they don't, if there's a deficiency saying, hey we went to Xyz property and there's trash on the ground, what's the deal with that and then how do they respond to that? Because that's going to be, -- there are always challenges, but it’s how you respond to those challenges is what I'm looking for on the property management side.   James: Yeah.   Feras Moussa: And then a couple of things too, just to add, I mean it's about what's kind of, what's the impression and feeling you're getting from them? Right. And, and working on a budget with a property management company is actually a great exercise to understand how they look at things and how are they going to meet what you're looking for. And I mean that in multiple, always, right? A, are they, -- is their budget realistic? Right. And B, is there pushback? I mean we actually like when they push back, right? If we say, well we think we can run payroll at x amount and they're like, well no, payroll is going to be this amount. Here are the 10 properties we have nearby to prove it. Right? That's good. Versus we've had property managers that are essential yes people, right? That'll say yes to everything and that's not at all what you want because we need something realistic. We're not trying to, we have millions of dollars at stake, we have other people's money. We're not here to just take a gamble. So, looking at that and kind of what we've found success in is really the people that are in that five to 15,000-unit range, right? The 40,000 guys in too much, they don't care about you. The guys that are smaller, there's just a lot of them. You know this first-hand. There's a lot of back offices that need to happen for a successful property management company. Right. And so, we found that sweet spot seems to be that five to 15 and then to where there our portfolio is enough volume for them, right? That we kind of get that professional preferential treatment where needed and at the same time, right, they're developed enough to be able to, kind of take on and succeed with it.   James: Got It. Got It. Very interesting, very interesting. So, let me ask some question about more the personal side, right? So maybe each one of you can add in on your own site. So, what's, what do you think is the top three things that are the secret sauce, for the success that you guys have been having in terms of closing deals?   Ben Suttles: All right. Go for it man.   Feras Moussa: Partnerships and relationships, right? Most important, first and foremost, right? Being willing to partner with brokers, property managers, other partners, partners, right? On the GP. People that can help us, would the deal, right? Whether it's helping with construction, hel

Last week, CNN reported that Facebook and Instagram are shutting down all peer to peer sales of alcohol. This wasn’t a joke. In the span of 72 hours, all of the major bourbon groups were wiped out. The secondary market is synonymous with Facebook. The growth of bourbon’s popularity can be attributed to it as well by those that are in it to flip bottles. Owen Powell didn’t create the first group to buy, sell, and trade bourbon, but he certainly created the largest. The Bourbon Secondary Market group is no longer around on Facebook, but the story of how it was built, the ways discussions were moderated, and how it served as a data gold mine for valuations is told. We uncover the progression of the group from a few hundred members to reaching over 50,000, what leads to certain distilleries being banned on a black market, and if the secondary market will actually end if Facebook groups cease to exist. Show Partners: The University of Louisville now has an online Distilled Spirits Business Certificate that focuses on the business side of the spirits industry. Learn more at business.louisville.edu/onlinespirits. Barrell Craft Spirits has won a few medals at some of the most prestigious spirits competitions out there, but don’t take their word for it and find out for yourself. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com. Check out Bourbon on the Banks in Frankfort, KY on August 24th. Visit BourbonontheBanks.org. Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com. Show Notes: This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about Parker's Heritage Collection. How did you get into bourbon? Talk about the growth of the group. Were there any growing pains? How many members are in the group? How many admins do you have? What do you look for in admins? Why do people have animosity towards admins in these groups? Let's talk about the rules in the group. How did the secondary raffle site become its own thing? How does a dispute come about? What do all the acronyms mean? What is the best way to handle a dispute? Have you ever had accusations of counterfeits? How do you handle that kind of situation? Why did you do an open group? Do you keep a log of all the transactions? You’ve banned a few distilleries. How are rules like that determined? Why do you run the group even though you don't get paid? What do you do when someone prices something too high? What about monthly dues? Do you think groups could end on Facebook? 0:00 Have you thought about a career in the whiskey industry? I'm not talking about being the next master distiller. But if you want a leg up on the competition, you need to take a look at the distilled spirits business certificate from the University of Louisville. This 30 week program will prepare you for the business side of the spirits industry like finance, marketing and operations. This is 100% online meaning you can access the classes at anytime and anywhere so what are you waiting for? Get signed up to make your next career move at business.louisville.edu/onlinespirits 0:35 people add their wives to the group and then immediately regret it because you know their wives mad at them they're always on their phone. wife gets in there sees how much they're spending on it then it's like when you kick my wife out know that you got to do figure that out on your own. I'm not getting in the middle of that. I think I might add my wife 0:52 to it because because being part of the podcast now I'm like, I gotta you gotta have a pulse on what's happening. So you know exactly uninvite. 1:10 Hey, this is Episode 212 of bourbon pursuit. I'm one of your hosts Kenny. And as usual, a little bit of news. On July 26 2019 beam Suntory broke ground on what is to become the friend be no craft distillery. It's part of a $60 million investment and what will become known as the James be distilling company and that can be located in Claremont, Kentucky. All of the building itself will be fresh construction. The brands that are gonna be produced at this new craft distiller are ones that were already familiar with like Booker's knob Creek and Basil Hayden's all as well as new brands such as little book and legend. Its name for the seventh generation master distiller Fred know which has been on the show few times before, and this new distillery will give know and his son Freddie the opportunity to experiment with new fermentation and distillation techniques. The distillery has also announced that they will be updating the visitor experiences with behind the scene looks at their brands, a new tasting room, and much more. Heaven Hill has announced the 13th release of the Parkers heritage collection, and this will be a heavy char rye whiskey. While 2:22 standard barrels and heaven Hill are a chart three the barrels the distillery used to age this rye our char five, that means they're burned for 50 seconds longer than a typical char three. The heavier char the easier it is for the whiskey to penetrate the wooden staves and take on those heightened open spice flavors. This new ride is going to be eight years old and nine months in these and was aged also in the seventh floor of Rick house why before being non shell filtered and bottled at 105 proof. The Parkers heritage collection is named after heaven Hill master distiller Parker beam, who passed away in 2017. After being diagnosed with ALS back in 2010. portions of the sale are donated to fund ALS research, and sales from the past six editions has raised over $1 million. The retail price set on this is going to be $150 MSRP. Ryan and myself are excited to announce that we are going to begin the process of opening a distribution of pursuit series in three states. You can look forward to Georgia, Texas, and of course Kentucky as the first states that we will be hitting the first barrel has been selected by Justin's House of bourbon with a second one quickly going into liquor barn, we're super excited to be able to bring our single barrel offerings at stores selections at first. And you can look for more information on stores in the States on our website at pursuit spirits.com. Now, don't worry if you aren't even in those states or Heck, even if you are you can still purchase your bottles and have them shipped to your door through our online retailer at sealed box dot com. You can go to pursuit spirits calm and click the Buy Now button and you'll be redirected to the site for that particular single barrel. Right now we only have about 20 bottles, let them stock but we're going to have a brand new September release, so get ready for it. Last week, CNN reported that Facebook and Instagram are shutting down all sales of alcohol, cigarettes and other similar things like e cigarettes. And this wasn't a joke in the span of around 72 hours. Half of the bourbon groups that I belong to were wiped out. Many of the larger secondary groups with 30 to 50,000 members were gone immediately in over the next 24 hours more disappeared. And even some groups that sold or raffled charitable causes for bottles were gone as well. We can't say for sure if this is the end of the Facebook secondary market, but it sure is a swift kick to it. Immediately following the demise of the large groups. Many of the smaller ones with less than 3000 members change their names, they also change the rules. And while multitudes of even more smaller groups started to emerge, it's uncertain if we'll ever see a group with over 20,000 members ever again. And that's kind of why we decided to release this podcast, the secondary market, it's synonymous with Facebook. This can also be attributed to the growth of Bourbons popularity by those that are captivated at some of the values that some of these bottles Dr. ON pal didn't create the first group to buy, sell and trade bourbon, but he certainly created the largest, the bourbon secondary market group is no longer around. But the story of how it was built, the way discussions were moderated and how it served as a data gold mine for valuations is a story that needs to be told. we uncover the progression of the group from 100 members to reaching over almost at the time it was cease to exist as around 50,000. And really, we're also going to talk about what leads to certain distilleries also being banned on this black market and at the secondary market will actually end Facebook's cease to ever exist again. Now you're done listening to me. So let's go ahead and listen to Joe over a barrel bourbon. And then you've got Fred Minnick 6:12 with above the char. 6:15 Hey, everyone, Joe here again. Our Bourbons have won a few medals, some of the most prestigious spirits competitions out there. But don't take their word for it. Find out for yourself. Use the store locator and barrellbourbon.com. 6:28 I'm Fred Minnick. And this is above the char. This past week, I posted a photo of the new Parker's heritage release. It was like a lot of PR release images. It was shiny. It told you all about the new whiskey. And it came with a price tag hundred and 4999. So pretty drastic increase from past Parker's heritage releases past releases were around 89 to $100. So you're looking at about a 50 to 60 you know, dollar price increase depending on what market you live in. People on my Instagram went crazy. I mean, maybe not crazy, but they were very upset with the price increase. And I had people writing me saying that this is solving Parker's good name. As many people know, I was really quite close with Parker been before he passed away. And it got me to thinking about where we are in bourbon right now. There's actually price increases across the board, not just with these really nice bottles like Parker's heritage, and the Buffalo Trace antique collection. But you're seeing it like an everyday Bourbons. I remember when I used to find four roses small batch for like $20. Now it's a $40 bottle. Now, some of that is on the retailer's for selling it to that price. But the fact is Bourbons that are 40 $50, I used to pay 15 to $25. for them. That is where we are. But I'm curious, I've been curious as to how much that might actually impact the retention of consumers. So I did a little digging. And as it turns out, if you are running a business and you are selling a product, one of the best things you can do is increase your price. In fact, they say that people actually grow their profits, and they also grow their consumer base. So according to this thing called the McKinsey report, it suggests that for basically like every 1% of increase in price can yield an 8% increase in profits. But these reports and all these people who are talking who are studying price increases also preach transparency. They say, Tell your people tell your customer base, why you're increasing the price? Did your costs go up? Did you have a bad loss in the previous quarter? And you're trying to make up for it? Why are you increasing prices, if you don't start telling your consumers, especially the bourbon consumers who have been with you from the very beginning, why you're increasing your prices, you will start to see a massive boycott. I'm talking about the kind of boycott you find on social media that ends up trending and people will no longer be buying your bottles. And that new consumer you think you might get because you're increasing the price and you're not coming off as cheap. Well, that person is going to be googling who you are when they're in the total wine or whatever liquor store. And when they Google you and they find out you've been increasing your prices 50 600% they're going to walk away and they're going to go to something else. In today's day and age, you cannot increase a price almost 100% and get away with it. Consider this some free advice to Bourbons everywhere. Keep your prices affordable. So the everyday person can buy them. If you want to have really ultra expensive products, create a new product and brand it to be ultra ultra expensive. But going from $89 to 150. It's just not good. It's a bad optic. So be thoughtful with your pricing and be transparent. You'll be rewarded by customers who love your product. And that's this week's above the char. Hey, did you know that I'm also curating hometown rising a country music festival that's featuring Tim McGraw, Luke Bryan Keith Urban and Little Big Town, go check it out at hometown rising.com. I'll be on the stage and you can hit me up and have a drink with me. Until next week. Cheers. 10:52 Welcome back to the new episode of bourbon pursuit, the official podcast of bourbon, Kinney and Ryan here today talking about us subject that is very familiar to the bourbon culture and the whiskey geek culture. Because if anybody is really getting to bourbon, you've probably gone down your aisles, you see a lot of the regular stuff that's out there, you start getting really influenced by all of it and you want to learn more about it, then you learn about, we've talked about our own journeys into this, you learn about limited releases, and how hard it is to get your hands on limited releases. And when you get down to that path, everything all leads to one one sort of in gate here. And that's the secondary market. 11:36 Yes. 11:38 Well, you start out and you're like excited, you know, you found the Weller, you know, Elijah Craig barrel proof. And then you're like, well, what else is there, and then you gotta get bored with the stuff that you can find, then you're like, then people inches, like you introduce me to the Facebook world. And like, I was like, Oh, my God. It's like a Pandora's box. And that's how I got introduced to dust ease and all the limitations, and it's like, it's the best thing that's ever happened. Yeah, and the worst thing 12:03 is the best, worst thing you know, and we'll we'll talk about, you know, really our guest, because he is he's really the ones that as kind of spearhead and really grown this movement. But you know, just on the topic of dusty, I remember getting into the secondary market. And this is this was like, early 2014 timeframe when I was introduced to it. And this is before I think even this group was around that that became the largest one, he had all these secret code name groups that you got into. And I remember seeing dusty, and people were paying like 100 bucks for some 1970s old grand, I bought an 86 Oh, granted for 75 bucks, like in 2015. I bought, like, I bought like three or four of them. And but I was looking at it back then I was like, What moron is I know. 12:49 There's a 999 sticker on it, like 12:54 10 towns that but now it's like, why didn't about all of them? 12:57 Oh, gosh, I'm sure we all have some of these stories. So let's go ahead and introduce our guests today. So our guest today was one of the founders or is one of the founders of the largest secondary group that's out there on Facebook. So Ellen Pao of bourbon secondary market, welcome to the show. Thank you for having me. Well, thank you for coming on. And you know, really kind of giving us a behind the scenes look of, of what really happens here. And, and just to make sure that everybody's clear, like, oh, it is not sitting here like advocating but he does this he kind of just operates a community. Right? And that's really what it is. And it doesn't matter if it was him or anybody else like this is going to thrive and exist no matter what, 13:35 no matter the channel no matter what. Absolutely. 13:38 So before we kind of dive into that, oh, and let's talk about kind of your past like how did you get into bourbon? How did you kind of find your way into into the scene? 13:49 See, I got into bourbon probably around seventh grade, just kind of like parents houses. 13:57 Usually people 13:59 get you're like, 14:01 like liquor cabinet. And, you know, us doing appreciate the corner. Yeah. But that was just, I mean, that's when I first got into it, then there was a pretty good time that I quit drinking it just because I had bad experience in high school and kind of just like, oh, not doing that. So it's usually when people have those 14:21 variances. And 14:22 then I guess freshman year in college, I worked at liquor barn in Lexington, and I was like, I'm gonna go out and get on, try and get back into this, you know, put it behind me got a bottle of Elijah Craig 18 for 50 bucks. It's like, I can't believe I'm spending this much. You know, went home had a party, we mixed it with Coke, you know, did shots of it just, it was, you know, one of those 1980 ones that were really good. Corey Putnam just chugs all the time. 14:54 And, you know, you look back and you're thinking like, Man, I wish I had that bottle of appreciation 14:58 anymore. You know, of course. The whole everybody looks at it, like a stock with they bought it when it first came out. Yeah, you know, but it is what it is. I 15:08 only bought Apple when it first came out. 15:11 Right? Yeah. $10 wouldn't, you know, but, uh, so and then, I guess, getting my education in hospitality, you know, I was managing restaurants and hotels, and in that kind of just the whole food and beverage thing just led me into spirits and naturally just 15:34 kind of evolved and got 15:36 naturally just start a secondary group. 15:40 I mean, we can get into that. And that that was a that was mostly because of back when you like we were talking about 2014. You heard of the group, she if you were in like bourbon info exchange, people will talk about it. But you got to know somebody to get in. I didn't know. I didn't know anything. You know, I was like, screw it. You know, I woke up at like, five in the morning Didn't you know, I was like, I couldn't get back to sleep. Like, I'm just I'm going to do it. Public, you know, all these secret groups. Why do you know why not? and it blew up. And I immediately became the guru and I didn't know it. People send me. They just assumed because I created this group. I knew everything. Yeah. So you know, they send a picture of this to me, what is this? How much is it worth? I have no idea. You know, like, Yeah, what is it? So all I do is Google. What is it? And I got educated, self educated on all the dust DS and fake it to every naked, you know? Yeah. I mean, I wanted to learn myself, I was intrigued by Why is, you know, why are people paying, you know, so? And then it just, it just kept getting bigger and bigger. And, you know, yeah, it didn't stop people rioted, that I let it be not secret, or, you know, and not bringing it to the forefront. And I think it did a lot. I mean, I think it affected the industry a good. 17:01 Oh, absolutely. I mean, I think I think that's what the secondary does. I mean, there's there's 17:05 brands that get like, totally thank the secondary model. Yeah, they're like, 17:09 I mean, yeah, I mean, it helps them evaluate exactly what they have in and maybe they start realizing everything's undervalued. Like, yeah, that was the that's probably the biggest thing. Communities had a huge impact on the black culture like do you think like old scout and like them county would ever be a thing without a bourbon secondary market? like it'd be tough to say yeah, I really would be it even be tougher to say that. Even would would group pics or store pics even have a place to be that are becoming that are, I guess you'd say sought after? Yeah. Because if you see something, and it's it's, it's got a group name on it, you're like, Oh, I immediately have that I've never seen it before. I remember for myself coming on to the secondary market with the first time. I remember seeing the Willett family estate bottles, just, you know, just the regular ones. And this is right as right as when the foil tops started taking over. So they're still wax ones in circulation. And I'm like, I've never seen these bottles before. I've never really seen them before. And so I'm I'm sitting there, I'm always going around the stores, trying to check them out. Trying to find these, you know, 10 910 14 year will family states. And I'm getting one in like Northern Kentucky. Like, I don't know, probably in late 2014, late early 2015 from the party source. But I didn't know like the whole entire time I could have just been driving to Bardstown. I mean, the whole time I could have been doing that. And so it was it was an edge. It's an educational experience as well for people that come into it. And just another education experience. I remember everybody's got their their Blanton story. You find Blanton's, you start learning about he learned about the letters in the horses in the bottle shape, and you come and trade with it. And then you learn out like, Oh my god, there's a barrel proof version. But you can't get the United States. How do I get my hands on it? 18:55 Like, how do you get a whole barrel on it? 19:00 It's exactly I mean, that's exactly like the the curiosity that gets sparked out of a community like this. So kind of talk about the hyper growth of what it was. And were there any kind of growing pains along with it. There were too many growing pains. It was just 19:20 occasionally we get to a point where like, I guess some of that some admins are like, Man, I'm having a baby now I don't have time for this. You know, I think it's kind of weird. Having admins leave because they they they really feel like they're getting noticed that a job. One of them like, Man, I've been trying to tell you this for a month now. 19:43 I don't care what kind of severance 19:45 do yeah, like, 19:47 I need an extra. 19:49 But uh, so yeah, it's only growing pains as as it got bigger. We just had to take on more admins. So what would you say you started start? 20 20:00 1415? And now how many about how many members are roughly? 20:04 About 35,000 35,000? 20:06 Yeah. 20:08 So do you have like a certain amount admins part? Thousand? Do you have like a like ratio 20:14 already have a certain amount of admins and time zones? Okay. That makes looking for West Coast because, you know, and then there's other things that we look for? What do they do during the day? Are you like a firefighter? Are you sitting in a firehouse for hours on end doing nothing but looking at Facebook or your hair? You know, really tech industry? Yeah. But, uh, so that's one of those are some of the things. And one of the things I told everybody, I was like, we don't want to hire anybody that actually comes to us and says they want to do it. Because then, you know, we actually did hire a guy that it you know, there's no wrong, you know, 20:57 some ulterior motive and, 20:59 and we there was, and but, you know, and it's just kind of a, you really got to be level headed, and most importantly, thick skin. Because if I mean, essentially, Europe, a boss of, I want to, I won't say it's a company, but I've, you know, you have to create these rules to keep the riffraff out. And then someone breaks one. And you're like, well, you broke the rules. Sorry, you got to go. But, and they've been drinking all night, and they're pissed. And then they, they've got to, you know, create a spoof accounts of your own Facebook or, you know, I had one admin leave because his kids were pictured him pictures of him and his kid were posted everywhere on their fake account, just like really, you know, sleazy stuff, but, I mean, it's, I mean, I kind of, I don't care what people say, doesn't bother me too much. You know, I just decided to keep doing what I'm doing. 21:57 Yeah, I mean, I guess it is tough. Because you're dealing in a market where these aren't, these aren't grandma's that are just knitting sweaters. Like these are, these are, these are, for the most part, a lot of grown men drink whiskey, and 22:11 it's an online bar, they have 22:13 seniors, and they have opinions. And they're very strong about them, too. And they 22:17 have a lot of liquid courage. That 22:20 in when you when you're behind the screen, and a keyboard that amplifies liquid courage is there's no repercussions really, except maybe a message back. 22:28 I mean, I've gotten into arguments online with people, you know, and then met them in person here. One guy, I, you know, he's his name will call him bow. And he came up here with Jamie from Lincoln Road, and we went to I went to a bourbon tasting that night and hung out with him. And you know, ha, mon, and I was like, Oh, hell, you know, me and him really got into it. And we went out drinking. I was playing Jamie and ping pong. He was cheering me on. He was all on my side. But the third bar was get to He's like, I go up to him. I was like, Can we bury this online hatchet, and he's like, Oh, we have a beef online. I was like, Yeah, he's like, what's your last name? I'm like, pow. Just started cousin. Oh. 23:16 Yeah, man. 23:19 God, I mean, he's a good guy. But so it's one of those things. It's like, Oh, they hate you. They hate you. But if you actually meet them in person, pretty much everybody's good people. But behind that keyboard, liquid current. Oh, yeah. FUFQFU. You know, you're the devil, you ruined bourbon. 23:34 Why do you think why do you think people do like have that animosity? I mean, it's and I know that you end up having to not post under your own personal accounts anymore. You do an inner page account to try and kind of hide and make sure the admins aren't aren't necessarily targeted anymore. So why is it that I mean, at this point, you are the godfather of the BSNV. Like that's, I think it's everybody love 23:59 that title, everybody. Hey, 24:01 everybody kind of understands your name. And when they see it, like, like, anytime it happens, like there's their posts, flurry that happens, but there's also some people that that hates you for no reason. Do you? Any idea? 24:13 I think it now, no, not really. I mean, I kind of see it as like, I know, I guess kind of the culture that everybody's gone through in the last six years of, you know, they don't care what they bought, you know, they've already made up their mind. They they're going to judge you for whatever it is that they think is true. And if they're presented with facts about the actual situation, you know, cognitive dissonance just goes in and they don't, you know, right ever, you know, yeah, I could be Mother Teresa. 24:51 You know, you ruin burden. If mother 24:53 teresa Rana face well, and when you're, 24:55 you're, you know, you're you're separated by a screen and you're not looking and talking to each. It really? Yeah, because you take the human element out of it is that you're like, you know, you can't it's if I'm sitting here Yeah, I'm not gonna yell at you for in person, but it might be a little easier. 25:12 Well, you know, I've never met you. I don't know you. I don't care. Right? Exactly. Yep, for sure. 25:21 So let's let's kind of talk about the rules a little bit because the one thing about bsm is that you're in compared to other groups like it's, it's a lot of like, no nonsense, like, this is what you're here for. You're here to buy bid. And that's it, like, no talk, no discussion. So kind of talk about the rules that that were in place and why they made them place like that. 25:42 So the the no discussions came up in a lot of rules were just formed by some of them sending me a pm saying, why don't you do this. And one of them was, I hate seeing discussions, when I'm only here to buy or look for something in particular. And the group's gotten so big, just, you got rid of it, I mean, then go somewhere else. And I was like, that's a great point, you know, bourbon or, or info, exchange, go there and talk about it. Here. We're one thing. So that's how that that happened. In a lot of the rules just were developed as we evolved. And just, I mean, people wanted it a certain way, it was mostly majority ruled on how things evolved, you know, from other groups and 26:26 stuff like that. And then you also have the secondary site that was doing kind of like raffles and all that sort of stuff. How did that sort of spin out and become its own separate thing? 26:38 saying basically, same thing, it's it's mucking up what a majority of people were there for. So it was like, we were just here for the bourbon, we want to buy it. That's what I want to I don't like gambling. I don't want you know, it's it's mucking up my area. So in the whole gambling thing, aspect, that's like a whole nother of great legal things that's going on. Doing a couple of things wrong there. And so I mean, that's that was just a separate it, you know, kind of 27:07 one of the first ones to do raffling different department. 27:10 I can't remember. I mean, I saw there was there was somebody in the community. I know that ran a group for a while he has since passed on. There not don't name names. Yeah, just for the sake of it. I mean, I remember it was red balls or whatever. Yeah, red balls or something like that. I forget. But there was there was there was those days and it I don't know like for I'll pass it to you guys. What would you rather do? Would you rather sit there and gamble on something or buy it outright if it's something you want? 27:40 Well, at first it was I won like my like first, like, like one out of 30. So I was like, This is amazing. Proceed to lose like 50 X in a row. And so then I quickly realized that let's just not a gamble. And let's just take the money that you would gamble and buy what you actually want and get it so it I'd rather much buy it now 28:02 then do it. I like I don't gamble at all with it. So I mean, I had no interest in in that help separate it too. And mostly the group ran it's the raffle group ran itself. And then people started getting crazy. We'll do a bottle bus was put in a bottle and then and then they're all gambling. So then they start someone owes someone a bottle, then they gamble with that bottle before it's even been shipped. And then it's like a cluster of who owns what where it was, you know, it's just like, so 28:34 it's it's kind of like I'm ready to double down. I didn't ever believe in those randomized. Like, I just still don't like mega ball ones. You know, it's like public knowledge. What's What's the number? Yeah. 28:47 So you were talking about just you know, who has what bottle and whatnot. I know that there are there's always disputes. kind of talk about what happens or how does the dispute come about sometimes? 29:03 A lot of times the biggest popcorn, 29:05 right. Explain popcorn to for people that don't understand that. 29:08 Yeah, remember? Yeah, explain. Because when I first saw you see like coronas and popcorn. And I'm like, What is all this mean? Like, yeah, go over the targets for the 29:17 words just means at the end of five minutes to go and your auction that you've created. If someone bids in that five minutes last five minutes, it extends the auction another five. And it just helps. You know, people are watching TV at home and 10 o'clock at night and they forget. Oh, someone did it. I can get in and you know, so it helped push it along and drive up the price but kind of stops that a little bit of the the eBay sniping kind of riots it does. You know if that happened, kindness, just Continental United State, cheap way to our easy way to say I'm paying for your shipping. I don't know where the the list of all the acronyms were created. came from somewhere before bsm came around and years before that. So you know there's I mean, those groups have been going around for 30:08 Yeah, I love the i's and T's and 30:11 GCS. Yeah, you gotta learn everything. That's I think that's, that's almost like a rite of passage we are getting into the bourbon world is that if you if you go to somebody and you start talking all this vernacular, and they don't understand that you're like, 30:24 welcome to the club. I think I won like an auction. And then I didn't realize what popcorn was. And somebody when I was like, wait a minute, I wanted it's time it went off, you know, but I didn't understand the rules. And it's kind of like read roll 13.0 and I was like, Oh, okay. Not this one in your videos. Another one. 30:41 I just discovered one. Last week, some South Carolina guys came up. And they were calling old Weller antique Ola. And I'm like, I've only heard it. Oh, da, I guess it's a, you know, different level. I've always heard of ODA, but apparently everywhere else they call it Oh, my God. You know, the vernacular, 31:01 it changes. That's for sure. Yep. So So kind of talking about what happens in a dispute, like what Ryan said, If there is, if there is something that somebody bids, but then somebody says like, nope, nope, it's over. Like, how, how does it when does an admin need to get involved in a situation? 31:18 Well, we wrote the rules. So hopefully, that they don't have to get an admin involved. But and they can people can will, you know, show the rules. It didn't, you didn't win it. Because here's the rule. It says, you know, after five minutes, it's over of no bidding. So, you know, you can check the timestamp of someone posting in that and determine if you actually did bit in time or not. So, I mean, things like that. If they're disputed, it might be well, the package says delivered, but it's not on my front porch, whereas Well, I know where it is. Someone stole it, you know, 31:54 who handles that part? 31:56 I mean, and you've even got the the drivers might steal it. I've had that happen. I know. You know, I was waiting for a package and excited that it was coming and got a notification that it was delivered in like, No, it wasn't, I'm literally by the front door. never showed up. So I bitter about that. FedEx. 32:13 Yeah. But I mean, is there is there a reason that admins have to step in the in a situation like that when a package is lost? Like 32:22 a? Not? Yes. Because usually the guy that ships it, they're responsible until it says delivered. And, or if it breaks during shipping, you know, the guy might open the package, and it's all busted. And he's like, Hey, this is broken, or the seal broke, and it's a collector's item, and I want it in mint condition. They'll they'll accuse, you know, the seller might accuse them of tampering with it, they just want a free bottle out of me or, you know, they're lying. This is bowl, you know, 32:54 Haven, they just have blue bears the liability and the Alicia Burton tell 32:58 if it's broken up, it's okay. You threw in, you know, three pieces of newspapers packing material, and it's broken, you know, come over here. Yeah, you know, and then a lot of the packaging suggestions that I gave actually came I used to work in a UPS hub one summer in Lexington. And I mean, I literally saw packages falling 30 feet concrete floor off these conveyor belts that get jammed up, and they just pack just are overflowing and just falling crashing down. So I was like, immediately, okay, I know how to pack a bottle from now, you know, you can't overpack in, you know, you really should you know it. Things like that happen all the time. So, it just, 33:39 I prefer their bottle packs their 33:42 wine wine bottle shipper things. 33:44 Yeah. Cool until I someone's like, showed me a bottle that they just, it kind of gives a false sense of security. Yeah. And they don't they don't throw anything else in there. And 33:54 well, y'all will have one of those in and then I put the popcorn around it or not popcorn, whatever. The styrofoam plate Stockholm, peanuts, peanuts. 34:02 Yeah. So in that situation, it's it's kind of it's up to the buyer to try to make it right. In a situation like that. Now, we've also seen it in some of the How 34:12 do you make it right, though? 34:13 Like, it's it's either reading under. 34:16 So if it's broken, it's refund the money if, if the tech strips broken world, it's kind of like you ask the buyer? Did you buy it to drink it? Or did you buy it to throw it on your massive wall? And, you know, whatever the answer is usually, okay. Well, then we take $50 for the, you know, crack seal, right? or something, you know, because 34:38 you're going to drink up to them to figure out the Yeah. 34:42 Yeah, we direct them to figure it out themselves got 34:45 you're not like the Better Business Bureau where they're like, they're like, have a dispute. And 34:50 you don't you don't have to resolve and 34:52 that's it. I was I was gonna think they're like a mediation court. You will, you know, like, you're going like husband and wife are going through divorce. Let's get together. No room real quick. 35:02 Yeah, I've had that quite a bit, actually. People add their wives to the group, and then immediately regret it. Because you know, their wives mad at them. They're always on their phone. wife gets in there sees how much they're spending on it, then it's like, well, you kick my wife out. Know that you got to do figure that out on your own. I'm not getting in the middle of that. And then divorces have come up. No way. Oh, yeah. Like, those wives know how much that collections worth. And you're getting into a divorce for whatever you did wrong, or whatever happened. That's, you know, needs to be split up. So then they want me to kick their wives out so they can let them know what they're selling or, you know, just like crazy. It's like, I'm not No, sorry. Sorry about your luck. you dug your hole. You know, that's my, my problem. Well, I didn't know that. There's a lot of that's something that I think about I think I 35:51 might add my wife to it because because being part of the podcast and I'm like, I gotta you gotta have a pulse on what's happening. So you know, exactly uninvite jacket. 36:03 I forgot she had it sees. 36:05 So I guess another thing is, you know, there's a, there's another thing that always happens, these groups that people call out other people, they'll say, you know, they'll tag and say like, Jimmy Joe, he's, he's a, he's a shifted, he's not he has a, you 36:19 know, good pair. 36:20 Well, I know that are like, I bought something. And then it's been two weeks, and he hasn't shipped it out. And he's not responding back to messages. Like, is that the right thing to do? Or is it like, 36:32 the worst thing to do? If If there's something going on, sometimes there's something actually happened, man, I've been in the hospital. That happens, it happened to me once and I had to take a picture of my armband and send it to do I'll ship your bottle out, it's just going to be a little while I don't know when. But uh, usually someone's if they might be scamming Omen or something like that. calling them out is the worst thing is he'll just piss them off. And if they have a conscience, and we're going to actually they messed up and they were actually having attention to get get you back, well, our refund you or something, calling them out, just ruined your chances. Best thing is to conduct admin and say, Hey, this is what's going on. And then we can reach up and I mean, I'll just send a message, Hey, yo, this bottle what's going on, you know, not a no accusations, I want to hear your side because a lot of times, there's, it's not their fault or something, you know, whatever. So, I mean, you do have to be diplomatic and not assume whatever you're being told is that the whole story and go to the other side. And most the time, it works out fine. And they solve the problem. Occasionally, someone just, you know, turned into a drug addict and is stealing or, you know, ripping people off. But we've done a good job of like letting people into the group, it tells you when like when someone tries to join the group, it tells you how pretty much everything where they where they live? Are they a member of any other groups that you're a member of? Are they friends with anybody? How windows? When did they create the Facebook page or in just all kinds of things? So if you're just created this in the last year, you're not getting? You know, if you're created the Facebook in the last two years? Why did you just create Facebook? And you know, all right. 38:30 around for a while, I know you're in your mid 30s? You 38:33 should know Yeah, exactly. So the and so we will have them prove their identity. Sometimes if their accounts really, you know, just send us a photo, a picture of your photo, Id block out all your pertinent information, we just need to see you actually who you are, you know, somebody that you're not afraid to. And now these days, you can if you have that information, just like a name and a city. You can find them on their address, every relative for free note, you know, not some search site, white pages. com. It's all 39:06 out there. So it's like LinkedIn work. So if you ever add accusations of counterfeits or frauds. 39:15 Hey, it's Kenny here and I want to tell you about the Commonwealth premier bourbon tasting and awards festival. It will be happening on August 24. In Frankfort, Kentucky. It's called bourbon on the banks. You get to enjoy bourbon beer and wine from regional and national distilleries while you stroll the banks along the scenic Kentucky River. 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And there's been people that have done it that we just thought I like I went to this guy's house and got a bottle off of them. About a single project for 60 bucks or something. And house he's living in a $400,000 house in which in Louisville is pretty good sized house 30,000 square feet or so maybe bigger, nice part of town comes from a wealthy family, well known family. And you just wouldn't think he would be doing that. But I you know, who knows what motivates people to commit fraud? 41:45 So in a situation like that, where people have been wrongs, for say, like buying a buying a counterfeit on the page? Is there any? 41:57 Right? How does it How does it go about to try and make people whole or anything like that it's like, man like this is this is a black market, you get what you get immediate action from an admin is if that accusation is made, we immediately ban you, or stop you from being able to because we don't want to keep, you know, until we find out what's really going on. And there's been times where, yeah, I bought that. Yeah, I sold him that bottle. I got it from this guy who's also in the group in this transaction. And you can see me buying that tree. Yeah, and you know, and then it's like a, these bottles have been passed around for 10 people in the same group in three months. You know, 42:33 that's what I always say about the secondary, it's like, it all just stays in the group. Like, it's, it's like, we're all transferring and firing the same bottles. Like, it's funny how they pass around that. So 42:42 yeah, there's, I mean, there's some guys out there that do incredible work chasing these people down and finding out where the counterfeits are coming and how they're happening. And and 42:55 they're those five fighters or send on 42:58 Facebook every day. Well, I mean, it's just good that there's people like that, that they find enjoyment out of doing it, right. And they they either they find enjoyment, or it's maybe they're doing it to protect their own ass, because they do have a very large stake in bourbon. And they've got to make sure that what they have is still keeping its value as it goes. So two sides of that coin. Now, there's also times that we just talked about that people finagle people out of money. Somebody says buy it now you say sure sounds good. Take your PayPal, Facebook account deleted, I've got my money and run. What do you what do you do to help? Or is there a way to help those buyers either become whole? Or is it kind of like, Man, that's it? 43:41 Sorry? I'm hanging out with PayPal? 43:45 Is there a BSM community pool? where people are refunded like No, I mean, it's interrupt your own risk type of thing. I mean, there's not really a safeguard to protect you. And we tried to hope, prevent as much as we can by screening the people that come in there. But there's, I mean, there's an inherent risk, you're gonna, you have to assume when you go into it, yeah, especially, what's your legal recourse at that point to? Well, we're gonna go, you're gonna, you know, it's kind of like, tell me what, Wise Guys, you know, what are you gonna do about it? 44:19 You gotta kind of look at the history of you know, those trends, 44:22 right, and the whole vouching for what they're building? Yeah, I need a reference Jacqueline, this dude that, you know, yeah, that helps a lot. 44:30 In speaking of something like that, I just kind of thought of this to, you know, when you started this group, you also started in a way that was a lot different than others. Some other ones, like the old days, that's not around, which was BX people would go in there and they would post bottles, and you would, they wouldn't be transparent. It would say, like, you want to sip or you want to taste and that means it's for sale, or if it's for trade, and you would be post in the comments, or whatever it is, and everything what happened through PM, right? When when you built this site, it was almost completely opposite. It's like, full transparency, open market sort of thing. What was the idea of doing that versus kind of like keeping it behind these sort of like, secret code words? 45:15 One I didn't, I didn't know about the code words, because I wasn't able to get into those. And that's the whole reason it was created. And the whole transparency thing, you know, as like, after I started it, and it was starting to take off. I was like, What is Facebook's policy on this? So I found it. And it literally said, You must be at least 18 years old to buy alcohol, you know, sell alcohol and buy it on Facebook? And I'm just kind of scratching my head, okay. Oh, maybe they're just seeing it as an international company. And well, we're not really in it. And then it changed to 21 then it they said, Okay, now you can't do it. On marketplace, and now it's a at all so we'll see what happens. And I think I lot of that most recent changes, probably has to do with the legal trouble. Facebook and Zuckerberg or or in with the Justice Department and their his emails were leaked, and he might be in a lot of trouble. So I think Facebook legal team is just like, okay, no more chicken groups and gun groups, like, whatever, all these crazy little white, there's chicken group. There's like cockfighting and stuff. No, like, what are they like? Not heirloom. But, you know, crazy breeds of chickens that like rednecks are collecting that happened, really, but they don't they don't they don't let it pass for everything. I was like, I remember a secondary market like it like a like a Facebook 46:42 ad that said, like, find your people like there's there's groups for everybody. And I didn't know that. 46:48 So I just heard about that. Because I mean, when groups get shut down there, apparently there really is a history like a what Facebook normally does, and they take out the big one, and then they let it because all these groups, you know, all these little sub small groups, all those people are usually in the biggest group. So take out the biggest group and everyone will find out and maybe they'll go away or whatever. The term. Yeah, now I gotta roll down here. 47:17 I mean, in this also, like, I know, there was a huge opioid crisis that was happening through Facebook as well. I mean, there's people buy sell trade, you know, illegal drugs and stuff. I mean, those those groups go fast. But that's, that's sort of the way that the world works, I guess. And then so another way that those was a lot different from other groups as well. So there was another group that's it's still out there today. So I'm not going to put a name to it. But they always wanted to try and keep a record of, of transactions and sales, and it was all done online. And that's kind of what also fueled bottle Blue Book calm and everything like that. So kind of talk about why you said like, or just said, like, I'm not gonna, we'll just like, if you want to know, something, just research search it, right, instead of having to own a catalog or an Excel spreadsheet. 48:13 Yeah, it won't, I don't want to maintain it. Is 48:18 I mean, it doesn't pay anything to sit here and you know, play around on it. 48:21 Yeah. But the other thing is that also, you know, that that data was also used in some research studies to actually see how the prices of bourbon had been affected from years of just, you know, actually having a particular bottle and seeing how evaluated over the years, seeing how different types of bottles, you know, changed in value over the years. 48:43 Yeah, what was it like the average return was like, 200% on in, like, just a two year span? Something like that. Yeah, 48:50 it was crazy. I mean, some maintenance sucks. That's, 48:53 yeah, I just didn't want to spend time doing it. But in I felt like bottle blue, but does a really good job of you know, I don't I haven't been on there and years and but just because the history and in my group got so big, I didn't need to, and it was probably more current, because 49:09 you can search any, like thing, right? stir the group? 49:14 Yeah, if you can, if you can just run the search button and know you right, or exactly know how to filter. I mean, you can you can find pretty much anything but yeah, there was, I don't know really who's running pooper. So if somebody like us yet, there's another transaction and BSMNE to go and enter this NL 49:29 introduced into the toilet. Like, I'm always wondering, like Wikipedia, like, it's crowdfunding, like, Who the hell goes takes your time to fill out a Wikipedia page? You know, I'm 49:38 sure there's a lot of people out there. I mean, if you have a 49:41 if you have passion towards that topic, 49:43 exactly. I mean, I guess 49:45 it also has with Wikipedia, you get I mean, it's like a credibility and a point system, like, it says, you know, like Ryan Cecil did this, right? So so you get you get a little little badge or a star on your shoulder, I guess you could say, if you want to do that. 50:00 One thing I wanted to bring up and wild turkeys a good example. How the market affect your like, we hinted at it, but how the secondary market helps companies see where their brands going. I was doing a barrel pick at wild turkey several years ago. And I was talking to Eddie about the secondary market. He's like, yeah, I'm in that group. I love watching those bottles and what they sell for, you know, like, really, he's like, Yeah, and I got to thinking, I was like, you know, your name's not in my group. So he's under some, I don't know what he's under. But uh, and then I got to thinking about wild turkey in their high end premium brands that they release. They don't like, they don't work. They're out on the shelf at 350. And they might sit there for up to a year, but it'll finally all sell. He feel like they see these brands nudging up and know, okay, we put it out here, we'll be able to maximize our profits and smart business in my opinion, but 51:01 it is it is a way that companies can gauge what's happening. Yeah, I mean, it's, 51:07 it's totally, totally took off the secondary market to raise raise prices, both heaven hills doing it, everybody's doing it. They see the value? Well, it's the first ones that were like, all right. We don't image that. Yeah, 51:20 well, I mean, the other thing is, is when you look at just what these Facebook groups are able to do in general is is it not only just helps with value, but also helps with prediction of the changing consumer? Like what do what do all these people, what are they gravitating towards? I'm sure you can look at the stats that happens when you sell a pallet to a distributor, and that distributor gets it out to the the stores. But it's kind of hard to kind of track that data and you kind of hard to see like what people are saying about it, however, you go to an online forum. And you see some kind of like, let's take like Bill need honey, for example. Like, I saw honey, and I kind of like whatever, honey, 52:02 yeah, flavored whiskey, and then 52:04 and then all of a sudden, you know, in Nashville is a whole other thing. You get this whole group in Nashville that that seems to kind of create other little like a tornado of, of I don't know what you would call it, but somehow they're able to hype a lot of stuff up. And now bill need honey trades for like four or 500 bucks. And I'm like, how, how is this even possible? Because I wouldn't I wouldn't have find myself like particularly interested in it. But if you look at what the market does and what it's valued at, they're probably like, Oh, shit, we better add some more honey, these barrels, you know, I don't really know, like, that's a process. But it's a way that they can see they can gauge exactly what what consumers are gravitating towards. So yeah, for sure, another way to look at it. So there's a there's another kind of way to if we if we look at the the group that you had built as well, there's particularly one, maybe there's a few others of distilleries that you've banned from being inside the group, as well as like, these bottles are not allowed to be traded. You know, we don't need to give them a platform and say like, let's talk about who that is. But is there a reason why that you would go through and say, I think we need to put our foot down and we shouldn't have these type of bottles be on here or on my market? 53:18 Yeah, so one, we're bourbon secondary market. So we keep it it just whiskey. There, though, I guess one that everybody knows. And it's thinking about, we I, I was getting really pissed off at all the people that were thread shooting on, every time one of these bottles came up, as I got in, and they're just, I didn't even know what they were fighting over. I just got tired of hearing about it. And then I heard there might be market manipulation, and I was just like, screw it band. And then I heard about all these things coming out about someone going in and doing a barrel pic with the secret camera and, and trash cans and whatever. I was like, I didn't know that. And then of course, everybody assumed was that, you know, I was just tired of having to admin, my own group, like shutting people up. And people get in fights and yelling, and just like, We're not here for that, you know, it was just like, just ban it get rid of and then it 54:22 took off and 54:23 be like, what's your motive? 54:24 And then the gifts come out? Right? There's always the gift stream of how 54:30 but only wrong. There's a lot of funny pictures. Oh, yeah, 54:33 kids that are very creative. 54:37 If you can just like add some good laughs Oh, yeah. 54:41 So the other thing is, if we look at the time that's invested into this 54:47 time is time is very valuable time is very valuable to all of all we're 54:51 equal, let 54:52 it all have equal time and it's in it's in for I think a lot of people out there they take it, they take it for granted, the amount of time that you've probably invested into this group over over five years now. And last time I checked, you weren't collecting a paycheck from a warrior. Nope. So what what's the motivation behind going through it and continuing to do this without seeing any kind of upside, per se? 55:21 One, it's, it's a passionate hobby of mine and every other admin in there, there are some incentive or benefits to it. Like someone comes to town they know they know who you are, they know you live here. They want to hang out and share samples with you or bring you some samples or mail you samples. Get that all the time. You know, we don't even we don't pay for it. It's that nice and fun. But 55:50 I mean, there's no 55:53 it's really kind of easy, and especially if you're like working a job. So a lot of I used to manage a liquor store. A lot of time I'd be just it's just sitting there and doing nothing. I mean, it's shelves are stocked, okay, we're good. Now you're just waiting for customers, and it was a slower store. So get your phone out of time. A lot of time here, you know. So, I mean, what else am I going to do? You know, just watch cat videos are 56:21 still fun, but I'm more interested in bourbon. 56:25 Morrison getting yelled at? 56:26 Yeah, nice people in the area. 56:29 Yeah, start fights for out of nothing. It's a bourbon of all things. But just funny and amazing. Like how people getting arguments over bourbon. Like there's, there's just so much like, yeah, we'll get into heated debate, whether it's about a particular bottle or whether somebody prices some sex. Yeah, good question. What do you do in a situation where somebody accidentally prices something? We've seen it, we've seen it both ways. They'll say way to live got this happy? 15 I'm going to put a for sale for 2500. And then the laugh emoji start coming every day that's coming. What do you do in that sort of sense? You 57:06 know, there's, there's kind of a range of All right, I'm just gonna delete your post because you're an idiot, or you're just going to piss off everybody, you know, 2500 for whatever the bottle goes for now. You know, if it's $1,000 too much, you're probably going to get delete, because I know what's gonna. But if you You know, I've seen the opposite where Pappy 23 170 someone you know, 10 people Ben, Ben, Ben, Ben bit, you know, and then they want to hold 57:39 zero 57:40 exactly what was clear that you were not trying to short yourself that much money, you know, 57:44 yeah, so selling it below the cost of even retail, you 57:48 know, I'm not being that nice of a guy and you're being an asshole. So it's like, no, you're not getting your free bottle of Pappy basically. So. But yeah, I mean, so there's a if it's just if it's too much. I mean, I've seen it where it's like $100 too much and they're still losing it and it's then we do actually kind of manage it and just mute everybody. All right. You said something, you know you redshirted me your digital duct tape for three days? 58:14 Yeah. 58:15 Is there actually like a like a thing where you're like you're because I've never actually added a group before? Is there really a like a button that you can say like you're you're cut for 10 days or something? You didn't you're 58:26 just like three options? No way that's awesome. Three days seven days Really? Okay. And depending on how I feel that day, you 58:36 know, it's it's just progressively gotten worse. 58:38 seven day max punishment. 58:41 Alright, you didn't break like Facebook rolls so you're not out of the group, but come on. 58:46 And then there's there's the other side of this where there's somebody that posts like a mixers 20 for will say like 1000 bucks, right when that's easily an 1800 dollar bottle or 2000 or something like that. So what happens if they accidentally undervalue it? And it's not an obscene and it's not an obscene value like a they 59:09 they literally know. 59:12 we owed it to them. And usually when they realize like someone tells them you just lost $800 you could have had 1800 dollars or something whatever. They'll just disappear from the group by themselves you know 59:27 that that point is like no harm no foul like you're you're faster the trigger on their keyboard but that's about all we can give you right now. 59:33 Yeah, exactly. 59:36 And so sometimes hold people hold up themselves to the boat you know all right, honor it Damn it. I don't I don't want to but sometimes they swallow their pride 59:45 now hopefully somebody like returns something in their favor to or if they cry it opens them a sample or something like that that'd be old 59:52 least which is IRA karma. 59:54 That is true thing I mean, there's bourbon karma out there there's people talk about all the time you know, you have somebody find a bottle you ship somebody something you send them somebody a sample, hopefully the karma God's smile down on you and you go walk into middle of nowhere Oklahoma, you stumble upon an old dusty turkey or something, you know, like, that's the truth thing. Now, there was also I think it was maybe a few years back. It was around Christmas time in did the community come together and like by the admins, some, like some Van Winkle or something like that. 1:00:26 I remember that. Yeah, so that wasn't actually in my group. Oh, no, that's fine. So everybody wanted to Dave on the back for being a great admin and he got a bottle of Pappy 29 I didn't know about it. And someone saw that and was like, we should do it for Oh, and I'm like, No, just donate $20 to charity or something. Don't send me a bottle. That's not what I'm quit bother me. I'm done. I'm not trying to you know, I don't need a handout. Not that it was that I mean, but it until after the fact you 1:01:01 know, I just literally and then so kind of going back and looking at this whole thing of you know, in time is time is very valuable for for a lot of people as you start going down this path and in everybody's got careers outside of just bourbon least hopefully most your friends. I mean, well, I mean, I met outside of like flipping bourbon. Right? Right. So everybody's everybody's hopefully has some career and flipping bourbon just isn't it. But that's, that's what kind of go backwards or time is valuable. And you look at it, you say like I built up a network of 50,000 people? What if I was able to charge like $5 per person per year for dues in that would go towards? I don't know what it would go towards, like, if it is to like actually help with the time that value that spent or whether it goes into like an insurance bunker for 1:01:51 bottles? How many people don't think is instantly enough? Sorry, charging depends now and how many active out of 50 that would even know that are? 1:02:00 can probably see that data. But the thing is that would that setting could only work off of Facebook. And so when Facebook bands up, you know, kicks every all of it off the Facebook, that might actually happen. Not necessarily for me. I don't want to do it anymore. But it might I mean, it might be a good vessel. But the problem with that is everybody loves to get up their phone. Look, I mean, me, I don't say they love it, but they do it. They get out their phone, they start scrolling through Facebook, they see grandma, they see someone else's kid. Yeah, I see bourbon in usually my newsfeed that's the only way. I just see bourbon bourbon bourbon. And I'm sure a lot of y'all can. 1:02:45 That's the only reason I keep Facebook Like I loved it when you could only have the group app. And you didn't have to have the Facebook app you could just do. And then they made everything go to the Facebook app. And it was like, you could just totally keep your cool. Yeah, it's 1:02:59 so good. 1:03:01 People off of loan to a whole nother website. It's going to be a challenge. And so setting that up. That's a lot of work. And I mean, you better have some really good reason for people to go there, you know, and how you got to make it worth their while to go there. 1:03:19 Yeah, that's true. I mean, it is it is hard to try and monetize a platform like 1:03:23 this, because it's the path of least resistance you don't face because people are already there. 1:03:28 It's against Facebook rules to actually try that or do that. 1:03:32 No, well, you can't export the group lists, like on the spreadsheet. 1:03:36 You can everyone move over? Well, 1:03:39 knowing that then I guess that rules that out? Yeah, I was just trying to think of a way that you know, you could you could try to try to, you know, make it worth the time. That's that's actually invested. But it sounds like it because granted this This is by far the biggest group. But it is not the only group. I mean, there's probably I mean, there's got to be upwards of hundreds now. Not only just just markets where

I am certain we all agree on the fact that Kelly Clarkson is the best singer of all time. Right? There is no way this fact can be disputed and to try is futile! The things she can do with her voice are nothing short of miraculous. The first time I heard her on that talent show years ago I knew she was going to be the best thing that ever happened to singing. I’ll admit that I’m not really a fan of some of her particular songs, but that has nothing to do with her voice. Her voice has the ability to tame wild animals and make tame animals wild. Her voice has been used by doctors to heal minor cuts and scrapes and it is a documented fact that Kelly's voice has actually healed a sprained ankle. Look, here’s the bottom line – There is not and never has been a better singer on this planet. But, there is much more to this episode than the fact mentioned above. This episode is about Earth Balls. Listen in and I'll explain it to you.

Today on the show, we have a message of passion and commitment. We'll be talking about following your dreams and the importance of never giving up on them. I'd like to welcome Brittanny Craig who is, indeed, a very smart woman. She is a powerhouse of a woman and has some very valuable wisdom to share with us. She is an Aveda Color Pure Professional hair designer. We are going to be discussing the evolution of her career, how she got started and where she is today. Hey Brittanny, welcome to the show today. Thank you. I'm really, really excited to have Brittanny on the show because Brittanny is my hairdresser, and she is the best hairdresser absolutely ever. But Brittanny's going to be talking to us today about her journey from where she started out after she finished school and going into her career and having children and then into this fabulous career as an Aveda Color Pure professional. So, Brittanny, just ... Can you give us a little insight into, basically, how did you even become a hairdresser? Where did that ... How did that happen for you? Well, actually, my mother was a hairstylist for 35 years. And my childhood toys were mannequin heads and perm rods and cones and brushes and all that good stuff. And I piddled around with it all through high school, and it never crossed my mind that I would become a hairstylist. It just was something that was in our house and we did. I actually was going to go to school to become an interpreter for the deaf and- Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah. I did sign language all through high school and actually interpreted it for a girl my senior year in high school and was going to go to school and then I had to drop out of college because my mom was having some health issues. And I put that to the side., then an opportunity came up for me to go to cosmetology school, and I said, "Well, I know it, so why not?" and that's where it started. So, you just ... It was just kind of like ... So, in other words, life led you, and through circumstance, to start? Right, right. Yeah. It just happened, and it was something that I knew that I felt comfortable with and I said, "Okay. I can probably do really well at this," and it wasn't an overreaching, overstretching, overstressed situation that I was already kind of in, so it was a way for me to engage myself, better myself in a way that was more feasible than going away to a four-year college because my mom, at the time, needed me to be there [crosstalk 00:04:04]- So, you had to make some clear decisions at a very young age about what was going to be best for you and your family? Yes. That's awesome. So, once you went into ... So, you went to school and you became a hairdresser and now, I know you have four beautiful children, so can you explain a little bit to us, like did you work when your children were young? How long did you work for? Can you explain a little bit of that to us? So, I started when ... Actually, I had my oldest child the year I graduated from cosmetology. So, I started- Oh, my God. Right? So, I graduated from cosmetology school, I was super, super blessed to have my mom be in the same city that I was in, and she was so gracious to help me with watching Madison, and then as more children came along, she was able to help me. So, by the time I had my third child, she was getting ready to move, and I was still doing hair part-time, but the childcare issues come about. Then when I got pregnant with my fourth child, I decided to take time off and stayed home for five years with all the kids until everybody started back into school. I want us to be clear. So, you basically went to cosmetology school, had a few children- Just a few. And while you had the few children, you worked, you worked part-time, so you- I worked full-time. Oh, you worked full-time- I worked full-time- And your mom took care of the kids? And my mom helped take care of the kids. So, I worked full-time for five years and then worked part-time for about a year and a half, two years, and then decided to stay home, but if any other hairstylist would be listening to this, they know that you can never get rid of all of your clients if you stay home. They say, "I will come to your kitchen and you can cut my hair," and I did do a little bit of that while I was saying at home, and it was great. It helped to have a little bit of money on the side and everything. But it was important for me to stay home. I had four children from the age of five to newborn and so it was just important for me to be able to stay home. And my mom not being available to watch to watch the kids for me and if anyone knows how much childcare costs, it was unrealistic for me to work and have childcare for three children that were still at home and my oldest being in kindergarten. Wow, that's amazing. Did you enjoy that time that you had with your kids when you were a stay at home mom? Oh, absolutely. I loved it. Loved every minute of it. It's kind of a genetic disposition for our family to be creative. That's just where things that are, my husband's very creative. The kids were very creative, you know, growing up, I let them do basically everything with me from cooking to cleaning. We were together all the time, you know, and it was really good for them. They knew how to express themselves, but yet, you know, going and doing and being out in. I never stopped doing any in particular thing because they were with me, you know, we would go to church on a regular basis all the time. Or if I had shopping to do, or if we had an outing to go to or people just knew that if you got me, you got four kids too. Oh, I love that. So, it was so great to be able to stay home with them and to be able to, I don't want to say educate them, but it was educating them because it was always such a surprise to me when my kids started school. I remember my oldest child's kindergarten teacher and she always commented about how, you know, oh she already knows her abcs or she knows the colors or she knows this or that or the other. I think, you know, any parent, you try to set your child up for success. But it was just interaction, you know, that we were constantly interacting with me or with, you know ... My kids love to cook. That's one thing that that I think is that they see as special, you know, from the time that they were really, really tiny. You know, I actually made them their own little oven mitts and they had oven mitts that went up to their elbows and little aprons and they would be in the kitchen with me and they love to bake. My son until he was about 10 or 11 years old would still, if I took cookies out of the oven and he didn't have the opportunity to do it, he would be mad at me. Like mom, What are you doing? That's my job kind of thing. Yeah. That's adorable. So it's just really fine to have the time with them and then them seeing how life worked, you know? And the reason, I guess I'm asking you this, because I think a lot of women struggle with this in the modern world, especially career women that then want to have families. And you hear all this controversy of how women should have children and then stay at home and be dedicated parents until they've left home, you know, like at 18 or whatever. And then there's all the bits in between. Then there's the women that have children and they work all the time. And I like the way it seems that you've done it. It's like you were there for your kids when they were little, but then once they all went to school, then you went back into your career, which is another piece of the conversation that we're having, but I just wanted to see what your perspective was for that with women, where there's that guilt feeling that we have when we're mothers and then we go back to work. You have any sort of like wisdom to share with us about that? Well, I think it's very different for every single person and and I want to preface this with that I don't think anyone should feel judged about what your choice is and what choices you make. For me, it was very easy for me to work when my kids were very little, especially with my first three because my mom was there and I have the best mom in the world. She's amazing and she was so gracious to help me with that and for me to be able to still have my career and be a mom and at the same time. But then it became ... She wasn't there anymore and I needed to have some sort of support and you know, I feel like that women need to not feel like you have to do it all on your own. You don't have to be the supermom. Yeah, right. I know because there's this fine line, you see women like pulling their hair out and they have kids and their careers and then you know, like the fried women. They're fried and they feel like the supermom is their kid is dressed to the nines everywhere they go. They never have a spot of dirt on them. Their hair is always nice. If it's a girl, she's got a nice big pink bow in her hair and you know, they're just super well behaved and that's just not the case. You know, kids are going to be kids. That's what they do. You know, they don't know how to interact sometimes in a situation and they don't know that they shouldn't say something when you know you're in public. I mean, my kids were the kids that, and I have three girls and one boy, and they were the rough and tough Tom boys. You know, when they were little, they were all the ones that wanted to go out in the yard and roll in mud. My third daughter would do anything in a dress. She wanted to have a dress on the entire time. It didn't matter what time of year it was. It didn't matter what she was doing. She'd go play in a mud puddle and she was going to do it in a dress. I love that. So it's just putting yourself in a space of knowing that, you know what, it's okay that my kid's dirty right now. They're building immunities. You know, it's okay if you you go out and their shoes aren't put on the right feet, it's okay if their shirt doesn't match their pants. The world is not going to stop revolving over that and no one is really going to judge you for that. They're going to be like, you know what, you made it out of the house today and guess what? You had a shower. Bonus. You got to take a shower today. And it is, because it becomes crazy especially when you have kids that are really close together. My kids were very close together. There's only five years and two months between my oldest and my youngest. So it was Bam, Bam, Bam. Wow. So it's just very interesting to me when when mothers puts this pressure on themselves to make sure that their kids look perfect, that they look perfect or their house looks perfect. You know, my house has never been a house that was perfect at all. You know, it's very lived in and there's something always going on. We are normally like Noah's Ark because currently we have two dogs, a turtle, a python. We used to have a rabbit but we don't have that anymore. We have eight outdoor feral cats that we've decided to feed and they have made our yard their home and there's something constantly all of time. Well, I do know everyone. I know Brittanny quite well and I do know her children and her children are growing up. And two of them are in college or one is in college and one of them is out of high school, but they're amazing kids. So that's why I wanted to talk to you about this just a little bit before we move into that, because you really have very like wonderful kids. I mean I've met them. You can have conversation with them. They are kind, they talk to you like actually they can have a conversation with an adult in the modern world, which is pretty amazing. Yeah. Well, I mean, that was one thing when they were little that was my pet peeve is, we didn't do the baby talk thing. It drives me batty. I just couldn't handle it. Baby talk, is that where you kind of go, oh, goo goo ga ga? Right. I just can't handle it. I couldn't handle it. And so like when they were little, I'm just like, they're a person, just talk to them like you would talk to anyone else and you know, they'll understand and we have to make sure that they're going to be able to function in a world, you know? So I guess it was one of my pet peeves and you know, no judgment on anybody who he does that, that's totally fine. But that was just my thing. And they are, they are great kids. They are going to do well. And it's amazing how for people from the same gene pool, you know, turn out so differently, and you just have to go with it. As a parent you have to go with what you know. Everybody's going to go in a different direction and no matter how much alike you think they are or aren't, you know, they are each their own person and the only thing you can do is hope that you've trained them to be a profitable, a productive member of society that you know is caring and just and wants wants to do something with their life and be able to touch other people. I know that you've done a really great job. So I feel like there's something to that, given how you had your career in the beginning and then you've told us the story. So can you then explain how you did the transition from this full-time stay at home mom baking and doing all these wonderful things with your kids, to then going back into your career because- Yes, and this is a really funny story because the decision for me to go back to work evolves around my son and his need to go to preschool. None of my girls went to preschool and I was at home making a, what was it? I think it was ... I was making a dog bed for my sister in law and we were sitting there and I'm ironing material and I'm cutting foam and doing all these things to make this dog bed. And Gabe was there with me. He was the only one at home. Everybody had gone back to school and I had bought a new iron and a brand new pair of pair of sewing sheers. Gabe was my kid that he would just go anywhere with me. He would sleep anywhere, he would do anything. He was such a good baby and he was always good when we went out, when I had, you know, even with the girls, but when he was by himself he was fine. He never caused any problems or anything like that. But you could tell he was getting fidgety being the only one at home. And I was pitting material on this dog bed and all of a sudden I hear, oh, mama! And I turned around and there was a flame going up in the air and he had taken my brand new sewing sheers and cut the cord to the iron that was plugged in. Oh No. A flame went up in the air. Luckily the scissors had rubber handles on it, so he didn't get shocked. Oh my God. I called my husband and I said, well, first thing I'm going to have to buy a new iron and a new pair of sewing sheers because it literally melted a hole in my sewing sheers. Wow. I said, Gabe needs to go to preschool. So I started looking for preschools and started looking for work to go back to work. What I think is cool is just how you knew that he needed to be in a school environment and interacting with his little peers and having ... Because just being with mom was not quite right. No. He was like, where's all my playmates? He was like, I have an instant playmate and they're all gone, you know? So he just, he needed that and it was great for him. It was absolutely fantastic for him and then I started looking for work. So how did you do ... You went back ... So how did you go from, like I said, stay at home mom, obviously now we know why you went back to work, but how did you step back into it? Because I think a lot of women, I know myself, as I was a stay at home mom and then sort of moving back into my career a later time. But I know women goes through this where we have this like fear because we feel, I mean I'm not going to speak for all women out there, but I pretty much know most women I talk to, there's that uncertainty whether they still can go back into the workforce. Am I still trained? Do I know enough? Do I have to go back to school again? You know, though, did you have that like anxiety or stress at all? Oh, I was petrified. I was absolutely petrified and I actually did have to take my state boards again. Oh you did? I did. Wow. I had been licensed for 10 years, a little over 10 years I think, and when licensing was done originally you just paid a fee every year. No big deal. You pay your fee. If it lapsed, you paid a little bit extra and they'd reinstate your license and it was no big deal. When I decided that I was going to go back to work, I knew that my license had lapsed from the year prior and so I was like, it's fine. I'll just call the state board. I know that we have to have continuing education now. I'll see if I need to attend some classes then that's fine. Go ahead and do that and then I can get my license reinstated. So I spent from November, wait, no, October of that year and I can't remember exactly, I'm wanting to say it was like 2007 from then to mid December, back and forth with North Carolina State Board. What do I do? I don't know. Do I need to take classes? I don't think so. So they just kept bantering back and forth with me while they closed for two weeks and I said, so can we just deal with this come the new year, it'll be fine. They said, absolutely, that'd be great. I'm feeling like there's going to be a [inaudible 00:21:35] here. So I called back the week after New Year', so it was the second full week of January and I call back and I said, hi, my name is Brittanny Craig. I need to speak with so-and-so. We've been talking about my licensing issue and so I get on the phone with this woman, I wish I remembered her name. And she goes, Oh, I'm so sorry you're going to have to retake your state boards. I said, excuse me? I said, we've been talking about this for three months now. You trying to find me an answer? And then she goes, oh, well as of January One everyone has to retake their tests. I was livid. I was so upset. Luckily, I had a very good friend that we went to church with that at the time, she was the director of Haywood community college and she was on the North Carolina State Board for cosmetology. So I gave Deborah a call and she says, I'm going to see what I can do. I had judged hair competitions for her. I had done all kinds of stuff. She was trying to recruit me to become a teacher, and so I was like waiting, waiting, waiting. She calls me back a couple of days later and she's like, Brittanny, I can't do anything. She goes, I can't pull any strings. You're just going to have to take the test over again. What I can do is I can give you a state board kit. She says, come out to the school. I'll give you everything you need to take this test again and just go knock it out. So after ten years of being licensed, I had to go take my state board again. So that was the first like gut wrenching- What a hurting. ... Thing. Yeah, to be able to go back and I'm like, 10 years, rules have changed. Sanitation rules have changed, what you have to actually do on the state board has changed and everything but it was good. I felt really good because I went back and I actually made a 96 on the exam, which was really good. I only made an 87 on the written exam, but I made a 96 on the practical. And so it was fine. You know, it was just more of like, oh my gosh, yeah I'm going to have to do this not right out of school, you know? No, I know, but also, what's amazing to me is that you didn't give up. Even when you got the, you're going to have to take these boards again. even though they had messed up and they could have told you in I guess December or November. Oh thank you for just letting me lapse, but oh well that's a government thing, I think. Right? Right. But the fact that you kept going, because I think that's when a lot of people would give up. It is, it was very difficult and it was, you know, I was super fortunate to have Deborah on my side because I mean that would have been to get everything for that kit that I needed, I mean it would have been six, seven, $800 for me to have all of that stuff that you get in cosmetology school. But you know, two years after you're out of cosmetology school, it's all to pot because you've bought everything else new. You know, because, and so it was difficult. It was challenging. But you made it. But I made it. It was okay. And then I started looking for salons and spaces and that was even more gut wrenching. Yeah. Can you tell us a little bit about that? So I had looked at a couple different places and pedaled around working, you know, just putting my feelers out and seeing what I needed to do. I mean, I had a clientele when I stopped working that was booked six weeks out and I had given all of that up, so I was like starting completely fresh, no clientele whatsoever. Oh, that must've been really scary. It was. So you had to start all over again? It was like, okay, I have to start all over again. All over again. I mean, I had like three clients that, it wasn't even ... Not to say that those people aren't fabulous, because they are, but it was like I had nothing to bring with me. So I got word that this Aveda Salon was hiring and I'd never worked with Aveda products ever. Before I'd used a Redken and Goldwell Matrix and stuff and couple other lines. I piddled with Paul Mitchell a little bit. So I was like, okay, but I knew what Aveda was. So I did have that. I went over to interview and this wasn't even to do a practical to do like a haircut interview. It was just for me to talk to the owner and manager of the salon. I pulled up in the parking lot and I literally sat in my car for 30 minutes wanting to throw up. Oh my God. Because it was just like, what do I ... I've not been in this world for five years. I have not been, you know, trained like some of these people probably have been trained because I knew Aveda was very big in education and things like that. I just had my skill that I knew I had where it was five years ago. Five years prior. So the good thing is, is the interview went well because I'm with Aveda still. That's amazing. Yeah. I've been with them for 12 years. So it's been a really, really, really amazing journey with that. I know and you have this ... I mean, the thing I know about Brittanny is I met her when she was at this first salon and I have a funny story just to add to that. My daughter actually found Brittanny and I was from Florida originally, so I was looking for a hairdresser in the Asheville area, but I was very nervous because, you know, I came from the film business doing makeup and hair. And I was a trained hairdresser and I was paranoid because my hair is like fine. I was really paranoid and so my daughter was the Guinea pig and she went to have her hair done with Brittanny and I really liked it. I was like, oh, that's pretty good. The color looks great, the whole thing. So then one day I went to see her and I was like, now I'm really fussy. I can't remember if I let you color at first or whether I let you cut it out. I know. I don't think I let you did both. I can't remember. I can't remember. She was allowed to do one of the tasks of my hair and after that it was okay, she passed the test. So this is what hairdressers go through. Right, and now you don't have to fly to Miami every four months. No, and I love Brittanny, and I've been with her ever since. And I'm just like, she's the best hairdresser ever and my hair just looks fabulous and I love to flip it. Is it flip it or flick it or whatever we do as girl is. But anyway, but I just think that also from, I remember with the pictures of your kids, you had all the little pictures and they were all little. Yeah. Really little. And now I come to the salon, they're all like growing up. But I just wonder how then once you got to work in the salon, I mean how did it take time to build that clientele and how did you keep going? Because now you're at this higher level innovator and what does it take for you to get there? I mean- It took a lot of work because I started back again with no clientele. And I worked five days a week and worked a split shift actually on Tuesdays and Thursdays working, having a two hour break so that I could go pick up the kids, meet my husband in the parking deck behind work and he would pick them up from me. So I would leave work, I would work from 8:30 until 2 and then I would leave, go pick up the kids from school, come back to work, swap the kids out in the parking lot and come back to work from four until eight to every Tuesday and Thursday because you have to work evenings, you have to build a clientele. I worked every Saturday. For any hairdresser out there who thinks that you can't work Saturdays, the only way that's going to happen is if you have a super big clientele and you've coached them into doing that. If you want to create a business for new stylists, you have to work those days that people are available. You just have to, so I worked Tuesday through Saturday for ... It took me two years to build up my clientele where I was pleased with it. And within two years, a myself and one other stylist in the salon where the top producers. Wow. Yeah, we were bringing in roughly 50% of the salons income, the two of us. That's amazing. So we were really busy and I was super fortunate. I was super, super blessed and I still have the majority of those clients with me today and they are amazing. I absolutely love them. Yeah, I love them. You are one of them. Yeah. So it just takes a lot of hard work, you know? Luckily my husband and I were able to work out our work schedule so that it was okay and you just do it, you know, you just do what you have to do. I get the comment all the time of, I don't see how you do everything that you do. I don't see how you do this with the kids. I don't see how you even have a time to sit down and breathe or whatever and you know, you just, you do what you have to do with the kids, when it comes to what they need from you or ... And there's always within reason, there's plenty and plenty and plenty of times that I've said no, you know, whether it be something that the kids want to do or if it's to a guest as well, you know sometimes. And when you give those parameters, you have to give yourself space to- Is it like having boundaries to yourself? Right. Well it's having boundaries at the appropriate time. You know, I went through that two years and it was grueling and it was exhausting and it took a lot of time. But you made it work, working a split shift and you know, figuring out who needs to pick up when and where. So it's like you ... So what I hear you saying is that to like be successful because I know you are successful and I've been on the journey with you from that ... I guess I met you right at the beginning when you were just starting back out. Although I had no idea everyone, I had no idea but now I know 10 years later something like that. Anyway, so, but one of the things I see with you is this incredible dedication and I have always been amazed at your dedication to yourself and your career and your dedication to your children and your family and your husband because we've not really talked about your husband. Right? There's a whole story there with him, which I would love to talk about one day but I didn't have time today. And I see like how your kids are and how well adjusted and grounded they are and how smart they are on all levels. Like you know they're intellectually smart but they're smart as human beings. That's how I see it. Street smart. Street smart. And then I see how you've carved your success with Aveda and what it's taken for you to get there. I just wondered if there was just something before we end that you would just leave our audience with today. Like the women out there that are maybe uncertain about going back into a career or should they work or they're having those doubts of, I'm just a mother, which is the, you know, I know that's the not the right thing to say, but that is sometimes how we feel. It's the most honorable job. But I feel that then we think, oh, you know what, I don't have ... Like you didn't have your, what is it, your license or whatever it was, you had to get all of a sudden and you had to go back and study and take exams. So, okay. So what I'm trying to get to is what message would you leave all the wonderful women out there that may have a little self doubt or uncertainty from being a mother and maybe moving into a new career or an old career that they once had? Right. I would say the first step is the worst. Like the just taking like the first physical step that you take towards whatever goal you have is going to be the most, and I know I said this before, but gut wrenching, but that's what we feel. Like somebody's literally reaching into us and trying to rip something out because either you feel like you're not worthy to do the job or that you're not ready to do whatever you're setting out to do or that someone's going to judge you for what you want to do. You know, there's tons and tons and tons of jobs in this world. The one thing that I have told my kids and I feel like that my husband and I have really taught our kids well, is that it takes hard work and you have to put yourself out there and you have to take the step and you know the worst thing that you think is going to happen to you is failure. That is not the worst thing at all. Failing teaches you, success teaches you nothing. Wow. Failure teaches you what you don't want to do again and that allows you to move on and move further. If you're successful at everything, you never learn anything. So you know, working hard to achieve your goals, whatever those goals are is important. Don't let anyone tell you that they're not. It doesn't matter if you want to learn how to lay brick, if you want to learn how to lay brick and that's important to you because you have a project that you want to do, then that's what you need to learn how to do, and you need to know that it's important. Or if it's you wanting to go back and getting a different degree then go back and do it. People, I'm too old to do this or I'm too old to do that. No, you're not. Absolutely not. You're never too old to do anything. You know? One of my goals was to become a professional by the time I was 40. And it happened in 39, six months before I turned forty. You know? And it was just really, really great. It was definitely ... I was nervous as all get out. There's always something. The unknown is what makes you nervous. And as soon as you step into it and we've all done it, you go, oh, well that wasn't horrible. You know, maybe I could do this now. Or maybe I could do this now. So I just encourage everyone to step out, have a team of people around you that can encourage you because that's super, super, super important. You never need to do anything alone and if you feel like you are doing something alone, I promise you you're not, I promise. Yeah. Wow. Well thank you Brittanny. That is like what an awesome message to leave all our fabulous audience today and thanks for coming on the show.

Sound of the Kootenays - Episode 7Cam PennerCam has been polishing and realizing his musical identity for well over 20 years. In this feature interview, he shares a full career perspective with stories about his roots growing up in Manitoba, discovering and cultivating a talent for music, building and managing his band The Gravel Road for over 10 years in Alberta and eventually finding his way to a new life and a new sound here in the Kootenays. We also talk about the songwriting/recording process, performing/touring, collaboration, and sound career advice. He even breaks out a guitar for an exclusive live performance.Cam and his musical partner Jon Wood have recently wrapped up a tour stunning audiences in Alberta and BC and then bringing it back home(ish) at this year's Tiny Lights Festival in Ymir BC. His new album At Was With Reason including the newly released vinyl edition is available now. For more news and information about upcoming performances and tours you can visit Cam at:www.campenner.com Track listing (In order of appearance):(Intro/Outro) - Deep Valley - The Big 48 (unreleased)Cam Penner tunes / albumGather Round / At War With ReasonWhen I Die / Get UpNo Stars In The City / Felt Like A Sunday NightDowntown / Felt Like A Sunday NightNo Consequence / To Build A FireRight Here, Right There, Like That - At War With ReasonIt's A Constant / At War With ReasonBroke Down / Sex & PoliticsFlesh & Bone / Gypsy Summer (live SOTK exclusive) *More information including Photos, Videos, and Links to artist websites and music available at www.AlWoodman.comTotal Running Time: 1:41:45

What happens when you skip a step? “How bad could it be?” Right? There is power and purpose in the process. Sometimes the process is the purpose more than the completed project. Short cuts and... Leadership Podcast by J Loren Norris: Daily video lessons for managers, employees and students​promoting faith, family and freedom. #leadingleaderspodcast​

Cara North: “It’s not about the tools, though. It’s about what you do with them. Right?” There may be no one better in the eLearning industry to answer that than our June 21 TLDCast guest, Tim Slade. Tim Slade is a speaker, author, and award-winning freelance eLearning designer. Having spent the last decade working to help others elevate their eLearning and visual communications content, he has been recognized and awarded within the eLearning industry multiple times for his creative and innovative design aesthetics. He’s also a regular speaker at international eLearning conferences, a recognized Articulate Super Hero, co-author of the popular E-Learning Uncovered book series, and author of The eLearning Designer’s Handbook. Tim answers Cara’s and more. In this conversation, he discusses: His start in loss prevention and how he evolved to becoming a trainer and accidental instructional designer His time at GoDaddy and how he set himself up for success by setting goals early in his career How he values structure and its importance to stakeholders How he started building his brand and eventually, his book Dealing with impostor syndrome Doing freelance work and dealing with freelancers Being a conference speaker and sharing your knowledge freely with others You can find the blog post for this episode here: https://tldc.us/2019/06/21/guest-tim-slade-with-host-cara-north-its-not-the-tools-its-what-you-do-with-them/