Podcasts about agile transformation

Natalia Curusi: From Spreadsheets to Discovery—Helping POs Make the Transition The Great Product Owner: Taking Ownership and Coaching the Team Forward Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes.   "That person was not just a great product owner, but a great coach—he had excellent communication and stakeholder management skills, and he coached myself as a Scrum Master, showing me how product ownership should look like." - Natalia Curusi   Natalia worked with a Product Owner who embodied everything the role should be. He didn't come from a technical background, but he possessed exceptional domain knowledge, outstanding communication skills, and stakeholder management expertise you rarely find in one person. What made him truly remarkable was that he coached everyone around him, including Natalia as the Scrum Master.  He demonstrated full empowerment and ownership—making decisions himself rather than constantly escalating to higher management. When risks needed to be taken, he took them with courage and conviction. The team trusted him completely because he balanced business needs with team capacity, always understanding what they could realistically achieve. Over the past five years, this person has been promoted multiple times and now serves as a global director of product, still with the same company.  When Natalia thinks about what great product ownership looks like, she thinks of him—someone who combined technical understanding with coaching ability, took genuine ownership of outcomes, and empowered the team through clear vision and decisive leadership. These are exactly the skills that are hardest to find in the market, yet when you find them, the impact is transformative for the entire organization.   Self-reflection Question: Does your Product Owner take ownership and make decisions, or do they constantly escalate to higher management, preventing the team from moving forward with confidence? The Bad Product Owner: Assigned Without Training, Support, or Willingness "She was a great subject matter expert with deep domain knowledge, but the organization assigned her the product owner role without her willingness, without training, and while she was already 80% loaded with other responsibilities." - Natalia Curusi   Natalia encountered a Product Owner anti-pattern that reveals a systemic organizational failure. The person was an exceptional subject matter expert with incredible domain knowledge, but when the organization decided to adopt Agile, they assigned her the PO role like sticking a label on a box—no training, no consent, no preparation. She was already working at 80% capacity on other responsibilities and had no understanding of what product ownership meant. Frustrated and overwhelmed, she approached the role from a command-and-control mindset. At the project start, she brought a massive spreadsheet of requirements, expecting the team to implement them sequentially.  The team tried a different approach, wanting to understand problems before discussing solutions, but the PO surprised everyone by re-introducing the spreadsheet in a later meeting—a clear sign of misalignment and broken trust. Natalia, recognizing this was a battle she couldn't win without organizational support, chose to manage the relationship rather than create open conflict. She worked to mediate between the PO's spreadsheet approach and the team's need for discovery and iterative development. The real anti-pattern wasn't the individual—it was the organization assigning critical roles without providing training, time, or psychological safety. This situation illustrates why product ownership fails: not from bad people, but from bad systems that set people up to fail.   Self-reflection Question: When you see a struggling Product Owner, are you addressing the individual's behavior or the systemic conditions that set them up to fail in the first place?   [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends]

Natalia Curusi: Measuring What Matters Beyond Velocity and Story Points Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes.   "We as Scrum Masters need to put a scope for ourselves—we need to aim to leave the place where we work a little bit better than it was, and to make sure that this place could improve itself without us." - Natalia Curusi   Natalia defines success for Scrum Masters with crystal clarity: leave the organization better than you found it, and ensure it can continue improving when you're gone. This means fostering independence and ownership in teams so they can perform whether you're on vacation, in another meeting, or have moved to coaching other teams.  The opposite pattern—where everything falls apart when the Scrum Master isn't present—reveals someone who hasn't truly succeeded in the role. Natalia also emphasizes the importance of establishing metrics early, but not the traditional ones.  Using velocity as a metric is an anti-pattern that focuses teams on the wrong outcomes. Instead, she recommends metrics like predictability, team morale, psychological safety measured through 360 feedback, and the quality of conversations both within teams and with stakeholders. But metrics alone don't tell the story.  Natalia champions the concept of Gemba walks—going to see what's actually happening, talking to people, observing the reality rather than just reviewing dashboard numbers. Some metrics are easily gamed, others provide only narrow perspectives on reality. The most important practice is using metrics to trigger reflection and adaptation, not as fixed targets. Natalia believes strongly that the quality of conversations—how teams discuss options, make decisions together, and adapt when facing pressure—reveals more about a Scrum Master's success than any velocity chart ever could. The ultimate question: can your team succeed without you?   Self-reflection Question: If you disappeared from your team tomorrow, would they continue improving, or would progress stop until someone replaced you? Featured Retrospective Format for the Week: Spotify Squad Health Check "This is a multidimensional retro that I run with teams every 2 to 3 months—you need around 30 minutes for it, and I often get insights and new ideas from this retrospective that help me as a Scrum Master." - Natalia Curusi   The Spotify Squad Health Check is Natalia's favorite retrospective format because it provides a comprehensive view of team health across multiple dimensions. Unlike traditional retrospectives that might focus on a single sprint or specific issue, this format examines the team's overall state across areas like teamwork, support, mission clarity, and technical quality. Teams rate themselves on various health indicators, creating a visual representation that reveals patterns over time.  What makes this particularly valuable is that it works whether you know the team well or are just starting with them—either way, you gain insights and "aha moments" about where the team truly stands. The multidimensional nature prevents teams from optimizing just one aspect while neglecting others, and the regular cadence (every 2-3 months) allows you to track trends and celebrate improvements.  For Natalia, this format consistently surfaces the hidden challenges that teams might not raise in regular retrospectives, making it an essential tool in her Scrum Master toolkit.   [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends]

Natalia Curusi: Demonstrating Your Value When the Market Questions Agile Roles Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes.   "My challenging topic is about the demand of agility in the market—how do we fit ourselves as scrum masters in that AI era? How can we demonstrate our competence and contribution when there's a perception that agile roles bring little value?" - Natalia Curusi   Natalia faces the challenge every Scrum Master in 2025 grapples with: how to demonstrate value in an era when business perceives agile roles as optional overhead. The market has contracted, companies are optimizing budgets, and Scrum Masters often appear first on the chopping block.  There's talk of "blended roles" where developers are expected to absorb Scrum Master responsibilities, and questions about how AI might replace the human facilitation work that coaches provide. But Natalia believes the answer lies in understanding something fundamental: the Scrum Master is a deeply situational and contextual role that adapts to what the team needs each day.  Some teams need help with communication spaces, others need work structure like Kanban boards, still others need translation between technical realities and stakeholder expectations. The challenge is that this situational nature makes it incredibly hard to explain to business leaders who think in fixed job descriptions and measurable outputs. Natalia's approach involves bringing metrics—not velocity, which focuses on the wrong things, but metrics around team independence, continuous improvement, and organizational capability. She suggests concepts like Gemba walks—going to see what's actually happening rather than relying only on numbers. The real question Natalia poses is this: the biggest value we can bring to an organization is to leave it better than we found it, but how do we make that visible and tangible to business stakeholders who need justification for our roles?   Self-reflection Question: If you had to demonstrate your value as a Scrum Master using only observable evidence from the past month, what would you show your leadership?   [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends]

Natalia Curusi: The Dark Side of High-Performing Dream Teams Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes.   "I was proud of this team—I helped form them from the start, we traveled to the client together, they were mature and independent, they even jelled outside the workplace. This was my dream team." - Natalia Curusi   Natalia had built something special. The team was technically strong, emotionally connected, and highly productive. They socialized outside work, traveled together to client sites, and operated with remarkable independence. But when a new junior developer joined, everything started to unravel.  The existing team members were like heroes—fast, skilled, confident. The newcomer couldn't keep pace, and slowly Natalia noticed something disturbing: the team started making fun of the new member during retrospectives and stand-ups. The person became an outlier, a black swan ignored by the group. Natalia conducted one-on-one meetings with both the new member and the team, but the situation only worsened. The new person insisted they were fine and didn't need help. The team members claimed they were just joking around. Meanwhile, the team structure and morale deteriorated.  Natalia realized she was watching her dream team self-destruct through a form of bullying—something she hadn't even recognized at the time. Finally, she understood she couldn't handle this alone and escalated to the head of discipline and the organizational psychologist. Together, they decided to rotate the person to another team where they felt more comfortable. Natalia learned a painful lesson: as Scrum Masters, we don't need to solve everything ourselves, and sometimes the best solution is recognizing when to use the support structure around us rather than treating it as a personal failure.   In this episode, we refer to Coaching Agile Teams by Lyssa Adkins and Training from the Back of the Room by Sharon Bowman.   Self-reflection Question: When have you witnessed subtle forms of exclusion in your team, and did you recognize them early enough to intervene effectively? Featured Book of the Week: Coaching Agile Teams by Lyssa Adkins "This was the first book about agile coaching that I read, and it's how I understood that I was already playing the scrum master role without even knowing it—I understood that I was already acting like a glue for the team." - Natalia Curusi   Natalia discovered Coaching Agile Teams at a pivotal moment in her career. The book revealed something profound: if you're irreplaceable, there's a problem. A great Scrum Master or coach makes themselves obsolete by growing team members who can replace them. The team should be able to perform independently when you're on vacation or move to another assignment. Lyssa Adkins showed Natalia that she needed to let go of over-control and over-responsibility, focusing instead on growing the team's capabilities. The book remains one of Natalia's top recommendations for every junior Scrum Master wanting to embrace the role, alongside Training from the Back of the Room, which teaches facilitators how to run interactive workshops where people learn from each other rather than just listening to slides.   [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends]

Natalia Curusi: When Your Technical Expertise Becomes Your Biggest Scrum Master Weakness Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes.   "I thought my technical background was my biggest strength, but I understood that this was my biggest weakness—I was coming into stand-ups saying 'I know how we need to fix that issue,' and I was a Scrum Master." - Natalia Curusi   Natalia stepped into her first blended role as team leader and Scrum Master full of confidence. With years of programming experience behind her, she believed she could guide her team through any technical challenge. But during morning stand-ups, she found herself suggesting solutions, directing technical approaches, and sharing her expertise freely. The team listened—after all, she was their former leader. They implemented her suggestions, but when those solutions failed, the team didn't have the thinking process to adapt them to their context.  Natalia realized she was preventing the team's learning and ownership by taking control away from them. The turning point came when she made a deliberate choice: she selected the most technical person on the team to become the technical authority and committed to never stepping on his feet again. From that moment forward, she focused purely on the Scrum Master role—asking questions, fostering collaboration, and shutting up to listen actively.  Years later, that technical lead followed her to another job, and they remain friends to this day. Natalia learned that her contribution wasn't about giving solutions—it was about keeping the team from losing ownership of their work.   Self-reflection Question: When you attend your team's daily stand-up, are you contributing to collaboration, or is your contribution keeping the team from owning their work?   [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends]

In this Scrum.org Community Podcast episode, host Dave West speaks with Nathaniel Davis, CEO of Barrel One Collective, and PST Yuval Yeret about applying Agile principles beyond software — into the heart of business operations.Nathaniel shares his journey from working in a large brewing company to leading Barrel One Collective, a brewing group where he's working to make Agile the foundation for innovation and entrepreneurialism. Together, they explore how Agile thinking can balance experimentation and consistency, drive outcome-oriented leadership, and shape company culture as a product.Tune in to hear how organizations can expand their definition of “product” — from beverages to behaviors — and how agility helps leaders continuously learn, adapt, and deliver value.

Wie gelingt der Schritt von der agilen Beratung hinein in den Unternehmensalltag? In dieser Folge von Unboxing New Work spricht Joanna mit Larissa Reis, die nach anderthalb Jahren bei HelloAgile ihre Leidenschaft für agiles Arbeiten in ein neues Umfeld getragen hat – als Scrum Masterin bei der Datagroup. Larissa erzählt, wie sie das, was sie bei HelloAgile gelernt und gelebt hat, nun in der Praxis weiterentwickelt: Wie sich Agilität im Unternehmenskontext anfühlt, welche Learnings sie aus der Theorie mitnimmt – und warum „Kill Meetings“ für sie mittlerweile mehr als nur ein Spruch ist. Gemeinsam sprechen die beiden über Feedbackkultur, gelebte Werte und darüber, wie man Agilität Schritt für Schritt in den Alltag bringt. Ein inspirierendes Gespräch über Weiterentwicklung, Teamarbeit und den Mut, Neues auszuprobieren – mit vielen Einblicken in die agile Praxis.

When Hanna Bauer's publishing business faced a perfect storm of budget cuts, industry disruption, and the ebook revolution, she learned that Six Sigma processes weren't enough. The real transformation required leading with heart.In this raw conversation, Hanna shares the wake-up call that changed everything: a top employee resigning to take a pay cut elsewhere. This crisis revealed the truth about organizational change; you can have all the right processes, but without genuine human connection and psychological safety, your best people will walk.Whether you're leading digital transformation or navigating organizational change, this episode delivers practical wisdom on building growth-oriented cultures where people actually want to stay.This week´s Takeaways:1. Hope Drives Change People with high hope find a way where there is no way. Leaders must tap into this to navigate uncertainty; it's not just positive thinking, it's the catalyst for transformation.2. Psychological Safety Starts at the Top Growth-oriented cultures need leaders brave enough to say "maybe it's my team" instead of pointing fingers. Cross-functional honesty beats departmental defensiveness every time.3. Influence > Position Leadership is influence, nothing more, nothing less. You don't need a title to create change; just the will to advocate for your team and drive positive impact.

What do you do when you're assigned to coach a team that clearly doesn't want your help? In this episode, we tackle the uncomfortable reality of coaching unwilling teams—from building trust with resistant groups to knowing when it's time to walk away.

BONUS: The Evolution of Agile - From Project Management to Adaptive Intelligence, With Mario Aiello In this BONUS episode, we explore the remarkable journey of Mario Aiello, a veteran agility thinker who has witnessed and shaped the evolution of Agile from its earliest days. Now freshly retired, Mario shares decades of hard-won insights about what works, what doesn't, and where Agile is headed next. This conversation challenges conventional thinking about methodologies, certifications, and what it truly means to be an Agile coach in complex environments. The Early Days: Agilizing Before Agile Had a Name "I came from project management and project management was, for me, was not working. I used to be a wishful liar, basically, because I used to manipulate reports in such a way that would please the listener. I knew it was bullshit." Mario's journey into Agile began around 2001 at Sun Microsystems, where he was already experimenting with iterative approaches while the rest of the world was still firmly planted in traditional project management. Working in Palo Alto, he encountered early adopters discussing Extreme Programming and had an "aha moment" - realizing that concepts like short iterations, feedback loops, and learning could rescue him from the unsustainable madness of traditional project management. He began incorporating these ideas into his work with PRINCE2, calling stages "iterations" and making them as short as possible. His simple agile approach focused on: work on the most important thing first, finish it, then move to the next one, cooperate with each other, and continuously improve. The Trajectory of Agile: From Values to Mechanisms "When the craze of methodologies came about, I started questioning the commercialization and monetization of methodologies. That's where things started to get a little bit complicated because the general focus drifted from values and principles to mechanisms and metrics." Mario describes witnessing three distinct phases in Agile's evolution. The early days were authentic - software developers speaking from the heart about genuine needs for new ways of working. The Agile Manifesto put important truths in front of everyone. However, as methodologies became commercialized, the focus shifted dangerously away from the core values and principles toward prescriptive mechanisms, metrics, and ceremonies. Mario emphasizes that when you focus on values and principles, you discover the purpose behind changing your ways of working. When you focus only on mechanics, you end up just doing things without real purpose - and that's when Agile became a noun, with people trying to "be agile" instead of achieving agility. He's clear that he's not against methodologies like Scrum, XP, SAFe, or LeSS - but rather against their mindless application without understanding the essence behind them. Making Sense Before Methodology: The Four-Fit Framework "Agile for me has to be fit for purpose, fit for context, fit for practice, and I even include a fourth dimension - fit for improvement." Rather than jumping straight to methodology selection, Mario advocates for a sense-making approach. First, understand your purpose - why do you want Agile? Then examine your context - where do you live, how does your company work? Only after making sense of the gap between your current state and where the values and principles suggest you should be, should you choose a methodology. This might mean Scrum for complex environments, or perhaps a flow-based approach for more predictable work, or creating your own hybrid. The key insight is that anyone who understands Agile's principles and values is free to create their own approach - it's fundamentally about plan, do, inspect, and adapt. Learning Through Failure: Context is Paramount "I failed more often than I won. That teaches you - being brave enough to say I failed, I learned, I move on because I'm going to use it better next time." Mario shares pivotal learning moments from his career, including an early attempt to "agilize PRINCE2" in a command-and-control startup environment. While not an ultimate success, this battle taught him that context is paramount and cannot be ignored. You must start by understanding how things are done today - identifying what's good (keep doing it), what's bad (try to improve it), and what's ugly (eradicate it to the extent possible). This lesson shaped his next engagement at a 300-person organization, where he spent nearly five months preparing the organizational context before even introducing Scrum. He started with "simple agile" practices, then took a systems approach to the entire delivery system. A Systems Approach: From Idea to Cash "From the moment sales and marketing people get brilliant ideas they want built, until the team delivers them into production and supports them - all that is a system. You cannot have different parts finger-pointing." Mario challenges the common narrow view of software development systems. Rather than focusing only on prioritization, development, and testing, he advocates for considering everything that influences delivery - from conception through to cash. His approach involved reorganizing an entire office floor, moving away from functional silos (sales here, marketing there, development over there) to value stream-based organization around products. Everyone involved in making work happen, including security, sales, product design, and client understanding, is part of the system. In one transformation, he shifted security from being gatekeepers at the end of the line to strategic partners from day one, embedding security throughout the entire value stream. This comprehensive systems thinking happened before formal Scrum training began. Beyond the Job Description: What Can an Agile Coach Really Do? "I said to some people, I'm not a coach. I'm just somebody that happens to have experience. How can I give something that can help and maybe influence the system?" Mario admits he doesn't qualify as a coach by traditional standards - he has no formal coaching qualifications. His coaching approach comes from decades of Rugby experience and focuses on establishing relationships with teams, understanding where they're going, and helping them make sense of their path forward. He emphasizes adaptive intelligence - the probe, sense, respond cycle. Rather than trying to change everything at once and capsizing the boat, he advocates for challenging one behavior at a time, starting with the most important, encouraging adaptation, and probing quickly to check for impact of specific changes. His role became inviting people to think outside the box, beyond the rigidity of their training and certifications, helping individuals and teams who could then influence the broader system even when organizational change seemed impossible. The Future: Adaptive Intelligence and Making Room for Agile "I'm using a lot of adaptive intelligence these days - probe, sense, respond, learn and adapt. That sequence will take people places." Looking ahead, Mario believes the valuable core of Agile - its values and principles - will remain, but the way we apply them must evolve. He advocates for adaptive intelligence approaches that emphasize sense-making and continuous learning rather than rigid adherence to frameworks. As he enters retirement, Mario is determined to make room for Agile in his new life, seeking ways to give back to the community through his blog, his new Substack "Adaptive Ways," and by inviting others to think differently. He's exploring a "pay as you wish" approach to sharing his experience, recognizing that while he may not be a traditional coach or social media expert, his decades of real-world experience - with its failures and successes - holds value for those still navigating the complexity of organizational change. About Mario Aiello Retired from full-time work, Mario is an agility thinker shaped by real-world complexity, not dogma. With decades in VUCA environments, he blends strategic clarity, emotional intelligence, and creative resilience. He designs context-driven agility, guiding teams and leaders beyond frameworks toward genuine value, adaptive systems, and meaningful transformation. You can link with Mario Aiello on LinkedIn, visit his website at Agile Ways.

When should you let AI agents loose on your processes, and when should you keep them on a tight leash? Peter and Dave explore the messy reality of using agentic AI for process improvement.They dig into why the processes you can easily map might not be the ones where AI agents add the most value. From recruitment pipelines that need human intuition to DevOps workflows that demand zero variation, not every process is created equal when it comes to AI intervention.This week's takeaways:Categorize your processes first. Look at your processes and start sorting them. Some need to eliminate variation (like DevOps deployment pipelines), while others benefit from exploring the edges and finding creative solutions.Not all processes are equal when it comes to AI. There are many ways AI can help improve processes, but you need to think about whether you want to reduce variability or increase intelligent flexibility in each specific case.Train AI to know when to hand off. What you want AI to do is recognize when it can't handle something and pass it to the right system - whether that's a math library for calculations or a human for complex decisions.Understand the difference between consistency and exploration. DevOps spent years eliminating variation to create stable, repeatable deployments. Other processes might actually want that variation because it gives you something unusual and valuable.If you're wrestling with where to apply AI in your organization without breaking what already works, this episode offers a practical framework for thinking through the trade-offs.Resource:Ethan Mollick's "The Bitter Lesson versus The Garbage Can": https://substack.com/home/post/p-169199293Questions or thoughts? Reach us at feedback@definitelymaybeagile.com

You know how agile transformations always promise better collaboration but somehow teams end up chasing tickets like a factory assembly line? Klaus Breyer from Edding has some thoughts on why this keeps happening—and what actually works instead. Klaus's path to leading product and technology at Germany's most famous pen company wasn't exactly traditional. Before Edding, he spent years managing 40-person World of Warcraft raids (yes, really) and running startups. Now he's applying those lessons to build software teams that actually solve problems instead of just completing tasks. The conversation digs into Shape Up methodology, but more importantly, Klaus explains the mindset changes needed to stop treating software development like an assembly line. His team at Edding has built some pretty cool stuff too—like a B2B driver license verification system using invisible conductive ink that smartphones can read. What you'll learn: • Why "give me a ticket" thinking kills collaboration (even in tiny teams) • How 6-week cycles help teams focus on one problem without distractions • The art of separating problems from solutions before jumping into code • Why late-stage compromises usually mean your team isn't really collaborating • When senior teams can ditch tickets entirely and just... work • Klaus's templates for getting everyone aligned on what problems are worth solving

Join Brian and Scott Dunn as they unpack what “buy-in” actually means and what it takes to move from surface-level support to genuine commitment in this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast. Overview In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian is joined once again by Scott Dunn to tackle a listener-chosen topic: how to get real buy-in for Agile initiatives, especially when shifting from a non-Scrum environment. They explore why buy-in isn’t about enthusiastic cheerleading or deep Agile knowledge, but about leaders and teams aligning on desired outcomes. From the cost of performative support to the emotional side of change, Brian and Scott share practical strategies for securing support at all levels of the organization. Along the way, they dive into influence tactics, the importance of shared purpose, and how co-creation—not compliance—drives lasting change. Whether you're guiding a large transformation or simply trying to influence up, this episode will help you rethink how to earn trust, build alignment, and inspire meaningful momentum. References and resources mentioned in the show: Scott Dunn Elements of Agile Assessment Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Scott Dunn is a Certified Enterprise Coach and Scrum Trainer with over 20 years of experience coaching and training companies like NASA, EMC/Dell Technologies, Yahoo!, Technicolor, and eBay to transition to an agile approach using Scrum. Auto-generated Transcript: Brian Milner (00:01) Welcome in Agile Mentors. We're back for another episode of the Agile Mentors podcast. I'm with you as always, Brian Milner. And I also have with me today someone that you probably know pretty well because he took over this podcast for about a month there. Mr. Scott Dunn is with us. Welcome in, Scott. Scott Dunn (00:19) Hey, thanks Brian. Yes, that podcast takeover was a lot of fun. So thank you for that opportunity. That was a hoot. Had a great time. Brian Milner (00:25) Absolutely. Well, I don't think I publicly thanked you for that. just ⁓ a public thanks. Scott Dunn (00:28) No, you didn't. No, not even an email. Not even a Slack message. Brian Milner (00:33) Well, very public thanks to you for doing that. Those episodes were great. I enjoyed them and it was fun to be a listener. It was fun to listen to it and just kind of hear the conversations and be a fly on the wall for those. So thanks again for doing that. Scott Dunn (00:47) Yeah. Yeah. It's a real treat. Brian Milner (00:48) We're having Scott on we kind of ran an experiment on this one because we were Scott was teaching a class for mountain goat and We thought maybe we'll just see what the class thinks so we pulled the class to see what topic do you want us to talk about and We thought we'd just go with the winner the winner that came out of that class was how to get buy-in How do you get buy-in in a? move from a non-scrum place to a Scrum kind of way of working. How do you get buy-in in the organization and buy-in from others? So when I was thinking about this as a topic, I think the first thing that popped in my head Scott about this was What do we mean by buy-in? So what does that mean to you? Scott Dunn (01:33) Right. So sometimes what I'm hearing is people saying like, buy in, you know, they, I would hear a common complaint, like they don't get it. They don't understand. don't, for me, buy in isn't that they need to understand agile or scrum and these types of things and how it works. Buy in is they get, they give their support kind of regardless. So my favorite example of that is walking into, this is a multi vendor effort we're doing on a Salesforce implementation. And we'd asked for the VP of the whole thing to come down and say some words before we had our first retrospective. You can imagine it's going to be kind of heated with different vendors trying to make each other look bad or whatever. And he'd said, yes. So we're coming down into this, you know, big high stakes meeting. And I just remember him saying, you know, I'm so excited to be doing this for you all. It's great. And he kind of falls in and looks at me says, what am I doing again? Cause he didn't, he didn't know, he didn't know what a retrospective was. He just knew he was asked to come and do something around that. And to me, Brian, Brian Milner (02:21) Ha Scott Dunn (02:28) That's fine. He's showing up. He's letting everyone know this way of working is important. It's important to me. It's important to success. And he probably couldn't tell you any of the meetings or artifacts or anything in scrum, right? But that's still what we need. Brian Milner (02:39) So. Yeah, I think that's a good way to think about it because I think a lot of people sometimes think of buy-in, like everyone's clapping and waving scrum flags around and all that stuff. And I don't think that's really buy-in. I think it's just the willingness to honestly try it, to give it a shot and be open about what would work and what doesn't work. The opposite of that is the resistance, know, of just being resistant to it and saying, I'm gonna put up hurdles and walls in the way of this being successful. That's, think, what needs to be avoided. Scott Dunn (03:18) Right, right. think that some of what was helped is to give them the, for me, the mindset of their buy-in isn't about doing things right. They're not saying, we're really wanted. We really want a new process. We were getting asked to come in because they're not getting the results they want. So buy-in for me from their perspective is how to help get the results that they're looking for. And they'll support us to get those results. So I don't talk to them about some of the aspects of an empirical process or any of that. I sort of say, you in order to get things faster or in order to improve quality, right? And that's how they get behind that. I think sometimes people are preaching some of the process part, even if they could understand that's not really what they're about. But I think they even struggle to understand what we're talking about. So yeah, it's hard for them to get behind and support us when they're not tracking. They simply know there's a pain point we're having. Can we talk about that and how to get what we need and what do you need from me to get that? Great. But I think we We can do ourselves a favor by helping point to the same target, make sure we're aligned with the same target they want. And maybe they'll give us more support if they feel like, yeah, you're tracking with me. I want to come in talk about, you know, more collaboration. Like we already have enough meetings. That's what, that's what I heard. Right. But I'll come and talk about faster time to market. Well, yeah, now they're interested in talking about what they need to do, you know, that I'm asking them to get behind that. I think that's fair. Brian Milner (04:28) Right. Yeah, I think there's also an element there, because I know we're both kind of fans of and users of kind of the path to agility framework from our friend David Hawks. And I love the part of that that's trying to establish the motivation, the purpose from the outset to try to say, What's the thing we hope to get out of this? And I think that's really crucial in getting buy-in that you can't just tell people, hey, we're gonna be a Scrum organization now. Why? Because I tell you that's what we're gonna do, because we're gonna check off the box and say that we're now Scrum. That's not motivating to anyone. if I can say, no, we're gonna... go through this change because here's the end result. Here's what we're trying to get to. Here's what we think will be better. If I can lay that out, then I've got a purpose behind it. And now I have motivation to go forward with this difficult change and learning what's expected of me and all that stuff. But if that's not done, I feel like that's a crucial misstep in that. Scott Dunn (05:44) Yeah, I wanted to add to that, that that point about the clarity of the goals is really something that has sticking power. And we had a client, I came and was working with him this year that he had remembered from the last year as the CTO. He's remembering from last year that we had done that same exercise or what are the goals that leadership has. And he remembered it was quality and customer satisfaction. That had been over a year since we had done that, but that not only stuck with him, but we came back to the group and kind of had a fun poll. Like, everyone remember? They remembered. And so every time we're having a decision we're trying to make about should it be this way or that way on the process, the different, were doing the race, the matrix work, et cetera, people kept coming back to, well, is that going to help us in terms of quality? Is that going to help us in terms of customer staff? We're not going into the nuts and bolts of Scrum or these other approaches. It's simply what's the business goal. will that help us hit the goal? And when the leader hears you using their language that they get, like that's my goal, they're feeling like, okay, whatever you need to do, sounds like you understand what I'm after, right? It's really powerful. But I like that you mentioned that, because when we go through that exercise, always super clear, we don't get confused. Times when we lead with, especially on the executives trying to lead with explaining Scrum, you can tell sometimes they're not really tracking or they're following along, okay, so what's the point? Brian Milner (06:59) Yeah. Scott Dunn (06:59) Yeah, you start off with what's their goals. They're like, great, this is exactly what I want to talk about. And then, Hey, you're not doing the things you need to do to hit those goals. Oh, okay. What are they? I mean, I remember one time a couple of years back, literally when the coach was presenting the results of that assessment towards their goals, they cut them off in the middle of his presentation. Just says, well, why, why is it, you why is that red? Why are we not hitting the goal? What do need to do? And they just started solving the problem right then he couldn't even finish his presentation. Talk about getting support. And he had been there six years saying, Brian Milner (07:23) Wow. Scott Dunn (07:27) Scott, they're not gonna buy into doing this transformation team and the scrum work. He couldn't even finish, I think, a couple of slides and they gave him everything he wanted, right? Powerful, powerful. Brian Milner (07:36) Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a good point. I also think one of the reasons that there's, you know, and that kind of parallels it. One of the reasons there's a lack of buy-in in general is that it's sort of targeted to just one area. You know, like this is a team thing. The teams are going to get trained, but the leaders have no idea really what's going on. They're kind of separated off from this. And I think that's a big part of the problem as well is you get buy-in when they see the leaders have bought in. So are the leaders bought in? Are the leaders on board with this? If they're not, then the rest of the group isn't going to be bought in either. Scott Dunn (08:18) People are smart. They're watching which way the wind's blowing. to be honest, Brian, I'd love to hear your thoughts. I tell people, I don't even care if they genuinely believe in that or not. If they're getting behind it because that's the way the politics are going, hey, they're getting out of the way. We're getting things done. Fine by me. Right. So partly when we're getting that by now, so make sure leaders, are you communicating this clearly? Because some of your people are either not on board or they're kind of waiting to see, this a fad or is this going to blow over? I need you to really communicate that clearly, et cetera, to see if people are get on board with that or not. Or, and on the other side, if I feel like some of these folks are not on board and I do feel like I have leadership support, I need to escalate that pretty quickly and make sure you understand, know, because they might get mad at you or me for talking about scrum and changing things. I'm like, I didn't knock down the door and come in myself. I was asked to come in here by someone who has authority. So maybe you need to clarify that with them, whether we're doing this or not. But don't get mad at me. Brian Milner (09:04) Right. Scott Dunn (09:11) So I will check them on that and clarify with the leadership to say, let's make sure your people are in alignment as well. If we do have that buy-in for sure. Brian Milner (09:20) Yeah. I saw another kind of quote about this that really got my brain working a little bit. Cause it was talking about the cost of fake buy-in and it was, it was kind of saying, you know, performative buy-in might actually, you know, it was asking the question, is performative buy-in worse than just outright resistance? And I don't know. Let me ask you that. What do you think? Do you think performative buy-in is worse than just someone who's resistant? Scott Dunn (09:28) Interesting. Yeah. As someone that just gave an example of performative buy-in. So if you would ask me a week ago, I might have gave a different answer, but someone was talking about this is a wildly different aspect of this, but you did ask me to join. So you get what you get. ⁓ They're talking about the difference of discrimination in the US versus South Africa. And they said, what's the difference? And they said in South Africa, it was blatant. no, you're a person of color. You cannot buy property here. That's how it is. Here, it's more like Brian Milner (09:59) You Scott Dunn (10:14) Yeah, we're looking at your loan application and I don't know if you can buy in this way. So it's subtle. And this person actually said, I'll take the outright blatant discrimination of South Africa, where at least you know what the issue is versus the subtle one. So maybe to that point with what you're saying, maybe it is better to have outright resistance and then say, well, at least I know who's on board or not. Rather than the person says they're on board, but every time they're in a meeting, they come out meeting and we don't get the decisions made we need. That's funny. Brian Milner (10:39) Yeah. Yeah. When I read this and started to think about it, I kind of had that same conclusion that like when someone's being outright resistant, yeah, it's an obstacle, but it's honest. And, you know, I'd rather have the honesty because they're trying to, they're still acting their way because they have a belief that their way is the right way to do it. And so they're throwing up a resistance because they're honestly resistant to it. Whereas someone who just sort of nods in meetings and claps along and, know, oh yeah, sure, great. But then they're kind of in the quiet, you know, behind the scenes and the hallway conversations. That's insidious. That's something that I can't really deal with. And it's like, you know, let's have the discussion. Let's talk about it. And, you know, if you win, then great. Why not have the courage to just have the conversation and see which idea wins? Scott Dunn (11:39) Right. on that note, think for everyone's sake, Brian, if we could be honest for a moment, not that we haven't been honest in these other podcasts, but in this, in this moment, we're really going to be honest. Would you, would, do you feel at times that our culture, our company cultures actually teach people to do just what you said to not be honest, but then like be like, you know, politically savvy, don't say what you really think, but then you're going to kind of be subversive and undermine that thing. And I've dealt with that so many times, I'll show up to a meeting like, I would have swore we were on board. had that one-on-one and now you're not saying in the meeting that you go on board with that. So people might've gotten coached. It's actually not safe to be honest and have good clear spirited debate because there's a price to pay if they do that. And they maybe 10 years in corporate can kind of teach you don't be honest or they're trying to read the tea leaves about what you think it's going to be. And so, yeah, I definitely would rather take it. Maybe it's part of the mindset of trying to really check, you know, where people are at. If I go back to my early days of coaching, those one-on-ones of having the level of honesty to really know where people are at. That was, think, some of the power. And I think some of that came from genuinely caring about the people, wanting them to succeed, wanting them win, even if it wasn't going to be at this company because of all the change or whatever. I did feel people felt like I really was open and honest with them and transparent and had their back. I would hear some real things about how they really felt because they didn't feel like there was a payback for that. And that allowed me to actually say, well, you know what, if you're really not on board, let's see what we can do as far as another opportunity. Maybe it's a positional switch we can do or whatever that was. Because I mean, this did affect people's jobs in some ways. And I think maybe if I don't have those one-on-ones, they're probably just going to give lip service because they don't know if anyone there really has their back in a turbulent time of change. AI is a great example of that, right? Hey, we want to move forward with AI. Well, what's the impact of my job if we do? But no one's really talking about that, right? It's all positive and all that. So I think people are trying to read that too. But you bring up a good point. I think I would take the direct as long as they feel like they can safely be open and honest. Brian Milner (13:31) Yeah. Yeah, well, even that question, right? What effect is AI gonna have on my job? And the honest answer I think that someone has to give right now is, don't know. I feel like I understand what it is today, but I don't know that that's gonna be the same way tomorrow because this technology changes so fast, so I can't promise anything. But here's what it is today and this is the paradigm we're trying to live in. So I think that there's an honesty component there that you've got a mirror to say, hey, I'm going to be honest with you. You be honest with me about this. And we'll be upfront with each other as we make our way through this. yeah, so yeah, think that kind of being honest and taking that approach, I think, is the right way to go. I also think that being kind of a reverting back before you get into things like, here's what a Scrum Master is, here's what a product owner is. You've got to start with the basics and mindset kind of culture things. You have to start with transparency, inspection, adaptation. That's really the way to go. And if we buy into those sorts of things initially, then we can start to say, well, here's a practice that supports that. Now you understand why we're doing this practice because it does this thing. Without it, it's just sort of one of those things of do as I tell you, you know, and that doesn't get buy-in. We've got to see the why behind it. Scott Dunn (14:48) Yes. Yeah, I think so. That's a great point. I was just making a note because sometimes we come in about agile. Some of the folks when I'm sharing this, it's maybe is new to them that I try to really present it. I want what you want. So even down to the words and then I kind of map back to that. So for example, if if we have quality problems now, I might believe in say an agile practice like mob programming, but I don't want to bring up like, hey, we should try mobbing. because it's cool or because you know, whatever, they don't care about that. But oh, they have a quality concern. Hey, boss, I've been thinking about, you know, these quality issues. I got an idea that I think it really could help with quality. But if I was to ask you, Brian, is is Bobby gonna, does Bobby help with quality? Does Bobby help me with, you know, cross training and tearing down knowledge silos and sharing learning? And I think, well, it does a lot of things, I pitch it towards what management wants. So agile as a means to an end. So I want what you want. And if I can't get that clarity that I want what you want, I need to be listening more because if I feel like I come to them talking, I've seen from my own experience, I come talking about better collaboration. That's not what's on their mind. I'm literally losing credit with them because they're like, why are you bringing this up? Like this isn't even our concern right now. Right. So I'm losing trust. I'm losing political capital. So I listen intently what their concerns are, the things I think that are important or that can get that. Then I'm going to pitch it. I'm going to pitch it in that language even like, you know, that what these are the things that would help on. I want what you want. Brian Milner (16:00) Yeah. Scott Dunn (16:18) the sport, I'll even research stuff to find out. So maybe I gave an example recently, when I was a manager for a web development, team that they wanted bigger monitors, of course, and I couldn't get approval for the bigger monitors. so I went and researched, I knew that always we had pressure to deliver more. I researched until I found somewhere someone had to study the show that larger monitors help productivity. And then I brought that to him and like, Hey, I'm looking for ways to improve the team productivity. I think I found something. What is it Scott? Brian Milner (16:30) Mm-hmm. Scott Dunn (16:46) Well, larger monitors, you can tell us, Smollick, really? You've been asking for this for months. I said, no, there's a study that proves it. Now he approved it right then. But partly I wonder, Brian, is I was also giving him air cover for when he gets flack from the other departments. Why does Scott's team get the special monitors? Well, it improves productivity. And right. He's got a reason now. Otherwise, it looks like maybe he's just playing favorites or something else. Right. We're all watching costs. So I will do the research to say, hey, I want what you want. I'll go and I'll go and dig it up. Brian Milner (17:04) Yeah. Scott Dunn (17:13) Someone somewhere must've said it's gonna help. So I'll bring that to them. It ⁓ worked. Brian Milner (17:17) Yeah. Yeah, I think you're right. you're giving him the why behind it. You're telling him, hey, here's something that's in. It's the old outcome argument that the outcome from having larger monitors is this, that we have this productivity. I know you want greater productivity, so here's a means to do that. And I think that's kind of the way that this, you in a nutshell, what we're trying to say here is, you know, I can't go into a company, your boss comes into your company tomorrow and says, hey everyone, we're switching to pens that write in green ink, because we're a green ink company. We just, we want to be known as the green ink company from now on, because it's better. So everyone, make sure you switch to green ink. I mean, they do it. But there's a difference between compliance and real commitment. ⁓ And that's the difference, I think, is, all right, you wanted to switch to green ink, but why? What's the point behind it? I'll do it, but I'll be committed to it if you tell me, well, studies show that when people read in green ink. I mean, that kind of thing can make an impact. But otherwise, it's like you're Scott Dunn (18:08) Yes. ⁓ Absolutely. Brian Milner (18:31) It's almost like an insult to the intelligence of someone, you know, to say, we're going to do this crazy new thing called a standup, you know, or daily scrum or whatever. And well, why are we doing that? I don't know. Cause right. That they tell us that's what we're supposed to do. Well, we have to stand up for a meeting. Why are we standing up? Why aren't we just sitting down? It's more comfortable. I don't know, but that's what you do in a daily scrum is you stand up. Right. I mean, it's, it's, it's that kind of a thing that I think. Scott Dunn (18:34) yeah. Yeah. I don't know. Brian Milner (18:58) if you don't lay the groundwork of here's why, then they're gonna just react with the way that you would switch to green ink. ⁓ Scott Dunn (19:05) I love that example. love that. And we've all been there, right? When someone says, why would we do this? I'm like, I actually don't know. It's a terrible feeling. I don't know. We go through all this effort to do just that. And you mentioned that compliance, compliance will never have their heart and soul and energy into this. So think that that's a big deal for them as well. When leaders are, we had something happen where it's a large financial institution and their data engineering group. Brian Milner (19:11) You're right. Yeah. Scott Dunn (19:33) You're like, yeah, AI is not really, you know, for us, not important to us. Which is interesting, right? Then the next week, like that, the head of that group, their boss's boss says, we need to be using, AI. Well, guess who makes it announced at the very next week. We need to get going with AI, So some of this is like, look, if they're pushing those things, we also want to make sure that they're in a position to look good for their bosses, those types of things. Right? So one, you know, giving them air cover, but two, listen to the winds of those things. If we make them successful, I mean, this is old school, right? Make your boss look good. My goodness. If they feel like that's happening, then you're going to get a lot more support. And this is a good example of a radical change for a whole data engineering team, just because the boss's boss says so. So now we're going to do it. I think looking for even those opportunities and following through on what that might be bringing them ideas that make them look good and generating that as well. I love the green ink one. just now it makes me want to be that we're the green ink company. You're we're going to be known for this. Brian Milner (20:23) Yeah. Scott Dunn (20:29) ⁓ But why? Brian Milner (20:30) Yeah. I think it's also kind of important that you acknowledge that there is an emotional impact here. And this gets into kind of the idea of the whole Satir model of change and that kind of thing. And so I think maybe part of the equation of getting buy-in is really comprehending and understanding that you're not going to get buy-in right away. ⁓ Scott Dunn (20:56) Hmm. Brian Milner (20:57) you know, there's going to be chaos and resistance. There's going to be a point where people are going to be resistant to it. And if you do the rest of it well, then that they'll turn that corner. But what makes them turn that corner is, is that they're connected to the purpose behind it. And so if you're, if you're going to try to implement this, if you're to try to do a change, and just expect it's gonna be, know, hunky dory from day one, you're fooling yourself. Humans don't take to change well. It's got an emotional aspect to it. I love the way David Hawks used to always say this. You know, I knew how to be a hero the old way, and I have no idea how to be a hero in this new thing. So I don't feel comfortable with this change because I don't know how to win. Scott Dunn (21:41) So true. Brian Milner (21:47) And I think that is a really accurate reflection of that emotional kind of impact of it. Everyone wants to do their job well and be seen as a smart person at work and everything else. And I knew how to do that before, but now I don't know how. And so I'm afraid I'm gonna look bad. Scott Dunn (22:02) Right? And I think that lack of awareness or knowledge is some of the things that we're asking them to do. Like you said, uncomfortable or new doesn't feel good. And we kind of think that, oh, if I don't feel good, this must be bad. It's just uncomfortable. But I think I love what you're saying. We can map it out and say, by the way, it's going to look like this as we go through that. And that hero part, a lot of our management, like 90 % of the management is going to be in that, you what we call expert or achiever. Like they're the smartest ones in the room, or they're ones that coordinate everything and they know who to talk to. you're trying to introduce something to someone who thinks they already know all the things. So how we're presenting that to them, including the fact that they're human too, right? They're gonna feel some things and maybe uncomfortable. It wouldn't hurt to explain a bit more, even if they're not gonna necessarily admit it, but like, hey, it's gonna feel different. The people might push back on this. So even when you're first beginning that, it reminded me of how I just knew I'd need to ask my boss like five times. Look, lots of people are asking him for stuff. They're partly just going by the simplest way of Who keeps coming to my office the most? And maybe on time five, like, wow, Scott, this sounds like a problem. Well, yeah, I've been here five times. Because they're kind of waiting, like, is it really a problem or do you just come in once or twice? So repeating that and then maybe framing it to say, and doing the change looks like this and that, giving them information so they don't have to admit that they don't know if they're priding themselves on knowing all the things. I really think that's a great addition to that. The Satir change model, knowing that it's going to get uncomfortable. I've seen execs jettison this just because people are bothered or upset or they're uncomfortable. So therefore this must be a bad idea. So I think we can do ourselves a favor by explaining a little bit like it's going to look like this moving forward as far as their support. Some people may not like it and here's why, but here's how I would answer those people. Like you're literally feeding them the responses. And I'll also do the get behind the expert and say, well, this is, this is what Harvard business review says, or this is what this expert says. You might be surprised because Again, back to them being experts, if you ask them what they think they know about Agile, I might have mentioned before, they score themselves on average about 8.5 out of 10. But their people would score them about 4.5 out of 10, right? It was what I've seen when I did the study, the surveys. So they think they know, so they're not gonna admit they don't know, but go ahead and give them the information they wish. If you know they don't know, I like what you're saying, kind of shrink the chain so they can understand, it's gonna look like this and feel like this. People might ask this way. But here's how I'd respond to them. know, remember this is where, you know, 90 % of the companies are doing X, Y, and Z. So they have backing. They can answer to the people. We kind of set them up for success. Otherwise that satiric change curve is going to hit them. They won't have answers. That feels really awkward. This must be a bad idea. And they're going to undo what you just asked for. Right. I've seen that happen. You just got approval and then a week or two later it got put on hold or undone. Brian Milner (24:44) Yeah, no, I agree. one of the areas, one of the other kind of things that I found in thinking about this in advance was a quote that was from the five dysfunctions of a team book that we all talk about quite a bit. But there's a quote from that that says, people don't weigh in, they won't buy in. And I love that. And I thought, you know, that really is a good point that there, it's not about Scott Dunn (25:00) Woo! Brian Milner (25:08) people need to feel like they're co-creating with you. And to do that, you need to be able to listen to them. If they don't feel like they have a voice, mean, put yourself in their shoes. If you felt like there was a big change happening and you had no say in it, that would feel pretty oppressive. But if they felt like they're building the change with you, then I think then that's what kind of can turn people around and say, no, I have a say in this, I'm a part of this. and I get to shape a little bit about what this is going to look like. They're going to shape it a lot. I mean, that's part of just the Azure way of working is that, hey, we're going to individualize this for this company, for this team. It has to fit here. And the more we can help people see, no, you're a co-creator in this. You're not just being told, but you're going to shape this with us. Scott Dunn (25:54) Right? Even with the leadership, I mean, it's easy. think everyone listening would agree. If you look at the common leaders, that's, even the, let's say director level and above personality types, right? For, for disc, it's going to be a high D for a strange pattern would be like command, um, computing values framework. They're going to be blue, get results, make it happen. But we need it to be, we need to be their decision for some of these folks. So when I would come to one of my bosses and say, I think we should do X every time he'd say like, yeah, let me think about. I'll get back to you. I kept thinking like, I don't understand because these are my people. I thought you trusted me. I realized, it has to be his decision. So part of what you're saying is invite him into the solution. So then I'd say, hey, we've got three options, good, better, best. What do you think we should do? Or I'd say, hey, I've done all the research, option A looks great, option B looks terrible. What do you think we should do? I mean, I try to simplify it. I tried to make it obvious, but I couldn't tell him I need to do X or we need this from you. It needed to be his input and to decide. Brian Milner (26:44) Right. Scott Dunn (26:51) once I framed it that way, he agreed every single time. I simply frame it, put it right in front of him so it's kind of an obvious decision, but I had to let him have that voice to decide. I'm really glad you brought that up. That one literally went from zero to 100 % if I changed my approach of how I had addressed it to let him be the one to decide and weigh in on that. Or even pitch it as a sales. Hey, I think it'd be great to move forward. What would that look like to you? Well, now he's talking about moving that change forward. without even realizing it, because you said to move forward, what would we need to do? And now he is co-creating, but it's already a yes, right? But by default, a little bit of sales, a little bit of sales effort there. Brian Milner (27:24) Yeah. Yeah, no, that's a, that's a good example. And that's a good example, I think for like the scrum masters listening and other people out here that are, feel like, you know, I'm not the leader in the organization. I'm not way up here and I can't, you know, have my decisions trickle down to other people, but, you know, kind of the, influencing up kind of mentality there. Yeah. It might sound like a little bit of a trick, but you know, if you can help. the boss co-create with you, right? Here's the problem. I've done some research. Here's some solutions. How would this look for you? Or what do you think of these options? Which one do you think sounds best? If I'm a boss and someone comes to me and says that I've researched this, here's the solutions that are possible. Which one do you think sounds best? That's really a service to me because you've just done a lot of work for me and I know that I'm doing my job by making the decision, but you've presented it and now I don't have to do anything but make the call. Yeah. Scott Dunn (28:24) Yeah, yeah. Simplify the decision-making or frame the decision-making is, think we might actually be kind of, I don't want to say teasing. I just hear some feedback from people at times like, leadership's was like, bright, shiny squirrel, right? And they get frustrated. But in some ways I'm thinking, well, at least someone in the org is decisive. I'll take that. But we can help them leverage that decisive trait they have. Brian Milner (28:43) Yeah. Scott Dunn (28:48) But for the good, instead of these random crazy things, you know, when the leader's like, I love Agile, I can change my mind all the time. We can, we can, we can guide them to better decision-making too. I love the influence both up and down what you're saying the Scrum Master can do. I think we miss, that we all have that ability to try to influence decision-making and shape some of this. Maybe there's more agency than we realized, I think for some of these folks, Scrum Masters, product owners, cetera, that you might be surprised. Like run an experiment, try some of these things out that we're talking about and see for yourself. I mean, all these personality types are different and your orgs are different. I totally understand that. Do something, inspect and adapt and see what you get. might, cause once you strike gold, you're like, you know, you're set on getting influence and buy-in from folks. It's really powerful network. Cause we don't need to give you a title or change the org chart in order to have results happen with you involved if you're that kind of a person. And I think you can really write your ticket in your career if you're able to do that soft skill of influence and buy-in up and down. It's great. Brian Milner (29:43) Yeah, yeah, that's awesome. Well, I hope that for at least the people that were in your class, this is is hit it right on the nail on the head for what it is they were they were thinking this would be about. But I think this is good. I think this is a good conversation and it's important, I think at all levels, because there's you know, this this affects us whether we're doing a massive transformation in an organization or Scott Dunn (29:51) Yeah. Brian Milner (30:06) We're just trying to influence up a tiny bit, you know, the food chain. Scott Dunn (30:10) Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I hope that for the folks who were in that class, you better let us know if that was it. If anyone else is interested in other things, absolutely. We love hearing what your what those topics would be and bring on the right people. I will say that Brian, you brought in so many different voices. It's really, really great. So again, influence us. You can practice what we're talking about by putting those ideas up there. Other folks that we'd love to hear, because I love the the slated speakers you brought in. Brian's been really awesome. Thanks for this opportunity. Brian Milner (30:34) Thank you. Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for coming on again, Scott.

Emily Lint, senior technical Release Train Engineer at ICON Agility Services, is here to remind you not to be critical of yourself when dealing with the many changes that come with an Agile transformation. In fact, she says, “You're doing just fine.” Tune in to find out why. Like what you hear? Connect with Emily on LinkedIn. Learn more about Women in Agile. Explore SAFe courses here.

Pascal Papathemelis: From Waterfall to Agile—A Multi-Level Change Strategy Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. Pascal describes a successful agile transformation where he collaborated with a fellow coach in the IT department of a large organization with a waterfall history and heavy documentation-driven processes. The two coaches worked together effectively, sharing information and scouting for opportunities to take action. They began with an assessment and discussions across IT, business, and management levels to understand the current state. Using the Cynefin framework to understand complexity, they conducted a two-day workshop to introduce Agile vocabulary, covering concepts like Push/Pull and process waste.  The coaches operated at multiple levels simultaneously - working strategically with leadership who typically pushed excessive work to the organization, while also helping teams visualize their processes and clarify priorities. At the team level, they acted as Scrum Masters to demonstrate the role while mentoring the actual Scrum Master through one-on-one sessions. They also supported the Product Owner in understanding their role and used story maps to help visualize and organize work effectively. Self-reflection Question: How might collaborating with another coach or change agent amplify your effectiveness in leading organizational transformation? [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends]

Führung entscheidet über den Erfolg – oder das Scheitern – jeder agilen Transformation. Punkt.In dieser Folge spreche ich mit Dr. Thomas Karl, Stefan Kahl und Stephan Lang über das heißeste Thema im agilen Business: Leadership in Zeiten des Wandels.

Lilia Pulova: Leading an Agile Transformation—The Power of Patience and Small Wins Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. Lilia shares her experience leading a genuine Agile transformation in an organization just beginning their journey. Faced with widespread skepticism and resistance, she encountered impatient stakeholders demanding immediate results during the challenging first 2-3 months. The breakthrough came after two months when stakeholders finally witnessed tangible improvements in the application and faster release cycles. Patience emerged as the critical skill that carried the transformation through its most difficult phase. Lilia emphasizes the importance of conducting numerous one-on-one conversations and consistently praising teams while celebrating small wins to maintain motivation throughout the change process. Self-reflection Question: How do you maintain team morale and stakeholder confidence during the uncertain early phases of organizational change? [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends]

Führungskräfte in der Krise: Wer entscheidet eigentlich WIRKLICH in agilen Organisationen?In dieser Folge spreche ich mit Dr. Thomas Karl und Stefan Kahl von Deloitte über das heiß diskutierte Thema:Dual Operating System – wie Unternehmen endlich Klarheit schaffen zwischen Linienorganisation und agilen Wertströmen.

If you're a Release Train Engineer (RTE) aspiring to become a Solution Train Engineer (STE), what should you consider before making a move? In this episode, Lech Babula, SPCT at Nordea offers three key tips based on his personal experience. Like what you hear? Connect with Lech on LinkedIn. Explore SAFe courses here.

“It's hard to master, yes, because there's so much value. You need to have the right people to help you disseminate that advice, to apply the right approach to implement it in your organization.” In this episode, Adam has an honest, transparent discussion about Lean Portfolio Management (LPM) with Darren Wilmshurst, managing director, and Ken France, VP enterprise agility practice, both at Cprime. Topics covered in the conversation include the evolution of Agile at scale and the increasing importance of portfolio management as organizations look to connect strategy with execution and move to a product operating model. A look at the results from the State of SAFe Report 2025, which shares data on how organizations are transforming with SAFe and highlights struggles they have with LPM. And Darren's and Ken's insights and advice for achieving mastery in LPM. Like what you hear? Connect with Darren and Ken on LinkedIn. Download the State of SAFe Report here. Explore SAFe courses here.  

What's the best way to motivate people during an Agile transformation and set them up for success? In this episode, Quinn Dodsworth, Agile learning consultant at PM Partners in Australia answers that question and shares his advice. Like what you hear? Connect with Quinn on LinkedIn. Explore SAFe courses here.

BONUS: Martti Kuldma shares how to transform century-old organizations through product-driven agile transformation In this BONUS episode we explore the remarkable transformation journey at Omniva with CEO Martti Kuldma. From traditional postal services to innovative logistics solutions, we explore how a 100+ year old company embraced product thinking, DevOps practices, and agile transformation to become a competitive force in modern logistics. Omniva's Digital Evolution—IT as a Revenue Center "We innovated the parcel machine business for a few years, and software has been an area of investment for us - software as a separate vertical in our business." Omniva represents a fascinating case study in organizational transformation. While many know it as Estonia's post office, the company has evolved into an international logistics powerhouse with significant revenue streams beyond traditional postal services. Under Martti's leadership, the organization has reimagined software not as a support function but as a core revenue driver, positioning itself for the dramatic shifts expected in logistics delivery over the next five years. The Vision: Physical Mailing as the Next IP Network "The Vision: physical mailing as the next IP network - this will give us a lot more freedom to adapt to changes in delivery demand." Martti's strategic vision extends far beyond conventional logistics thinking. By conceptualizing physical delivery networks similar to internet protocols, Omniva is preparing for a future where logistics companies leverage their physical infrastructure advantages. This approach addresses the fundamental challenge of fluctuating demand in e-commerce and traditional logistics, creating opportunities for crowd delivery solutions and gig economy integration that capitalize on existing network effects. Breaking Down Waterfall Barriers "When I came we had waterfall processes - annual budgeting, procurement for software development. It took a couple of weeks to do the first rounds, and understand what could be improved." The transformation from traditional procurement-based software development to agile product teams required dismantling entrenched processes. Martti discovered that the contractor model, while seemingly cost-effective, created expensive knowledge transfer cycles and left the organization vulnerable when external teams departed. His engineering background enabled him to recruit talent and build sustainable development capabilities that keep critical knowledge within the organization. Creating Cross-Functional Product Teams "We started to create cross-functional product area teams. We are not going to tell you what you need to build. You are accountable for the logistics efficiency." The shift from eleven distinct roles in software development to autonomous product teams represents more than organizational restructuring. By empowering teams with accountability for business outcomes rather than just deliverables, Omniva transformed how work gets planned and executed. This approach eliminates traditional handoffs and role silos, creating teams that own both the problem and the solution. The Product Manager Evolution "For me, the PM is directly accountable for the business results. The final step of the transformation started when I took the CEO role." Martti identifies a critical challenge in agile transformations: the misunderstanding of Product Manager responsibilities. Rather than falling into delivery or project management patterns, effective PMs at Omniva own business results directly. This shift required company-wide transformation because technical changes alone cannot sustain organizational evolution without corresponding changes in mindset and accountability structures. Leadership Through Storytelling "My main tool is just talking. All I do is story-telling internally and externally. I needed to become the best salesman in the company." The transition from technical leadership to CEO revealed that transformation leadership requires different skills than technical management. Martti discovered that his primary value comes through narrative construction and communication rather than direct technical contribution. This realization highlights how senior leaders must evolve their impact methods as organizations scale and transform. Real-Time Feedback Philosophy "The feedback needs to be given immediately. ‘Last year, in May your performance was not the best' - this is completely useless feedback." Martti's rejection of annual reviews stems from practical experience with feedback effectiveness. Immediate, personal feedback creates learning opportunities and course corrections that annual cycles cannot provide. Anonymous 360 feedback systems often dilute accountability and actionability, whereas direct, timely conversations enable meaningful professional development and relationship building. Essential Transformation Practices "You need to tell the story - and convince people that this transformation is essential and needed. You need to trust and let them make their own decisions." Drawing from experiences at both Pipedrive and Omniva, Martti identifies three critical elements for leading complex organizational change: Compelling narrative: People need to understand why transformation is necessary and how it benefits both the organization and their individual growth Distributed decision-making: Trust enables teams to solve problems creatively rather than waiting for hierarchical approval Business accountability for engineers: When technical teams understand and own business outcomes, they innovate more effectively toward meaningful goals The dynamic team formation model used at Pipedrive, where engineers and PMs pitched ideas and assembled mission-focused teams, demonstrates how organizational structure can enable rather than constrain innovation. About Martti Kuldma Martti Kuldma is CEO of Omniva, leading its transformation into a product-driven logistics company. A former engineering leader at Pipedrive and CTO at Omniva, he brings deep expertise in scaling teams, agile transformation, and digital innovation. Martti is also a startup founder and passionate advocate for high-impact product organizations. You can link with Martti Kuldma on LinkedIn.

Willst Du SAFE richtig implementieren – oder nur so tun als ob?Dann kommst Du am LACE-Team nicht vorbei.In dieser kompakten, aber knallharten Folge von „Psychologie, die verkauft“ tauchen wir mit Dr. Thomas Kahl und Stefan Kahl (Deloitte) tief in das Herz jeder erfolgreichen Transformation ein:✅ Was ist ein LACE-Team wirklich – und was definitiv nicht?✅ Wann ist der perfekte Zeitpunkt für den Aufbau?✅ Wer muss rein – und wer darf auf keinen Fall rein?✅ Die 3 größten Fehler, die LACE-Teams scheitern lassen.✅ Warum ein One-Man-LACE besser ist als gar keins.Du erfährst:Wie Du mit einem gut aufgestellten LACE-Team Skalierung möglich machst, echte Verantwortung ins Unternehmen bringst – und was Du unbedingt vermeiden musst, um nicht am Widerstand Deiner Organisation zu zerschellen.Diese Folge ist Pflichtprogramm für alle, die Agile Transformation ernst meinen – nicht nur auf Folien.Mit dabei: echte Insights aus der Praxis bei DAX-Konzernen, handfeste Do's & Don'ts und ein ganz klaresStatement: Leadership darf sich nicht wegducken.BÄM BÄM. Play drücken. LACE meistern. Transformation starten.

If an organization's executives and managers don't understand the new way of working associated with an Agile transformation, how can they lead effectively? In this episode, Sukie Kang with Connected Movement shares his tips for coaches to help leaders become fully engaged. Like what you hear? Connect with Sukie on LinkedIn. Explore SAFe courses here.

Agilität in Deutschland? Klingt erstmal gut.Fühlt sich aber oft an wie: „Neues Korsett – alte Probleme.“In dieser Folge spreche ich mit Dr. Stephanie Puckett, Organisationspsychologin und Autorin von gleich mehreren Büchern zur agilen Transformation. Gemeinsam sezieren wir, warum viele Unternehmen auf Agilität setzen – und trotzdem keine PS auf die Straße bringen.Du erfährst:✅ Warum psychologische Sicherheit wichtiger ist als das perfekte Framework✅ Weshalb Agilität kein Prozess-, sondern ein Transparenzproblem ist✅ Wie Du die echten Kosten von Transformation erkennst – monetär UND mental✅ Und warum viele „agile Change-Prozesse“ eher Dressur als Empowerment sindReal Talk. Ohne Buzzword-Gelaber. Ohne Dogma.Dafür mit Klartext, Haltung – und einer klaren Vision:Was Agilität in Deutschland WIRKLICH braucht.

What's the best way to help Business Owners do their jobs better to empower an Agile transformation? In this episode, Kurt Jäger with KEGON explains why part of it involves speaking their language. Like what you hear? Connect with Kurt on LinkedIn. Explore SAFe courses here.

Changing your mindset can change your behaviors. In this episode, SPCT and Strategic Advisor Hiroaki Nakaya explains why this is so important to a successful transformation for any organization. Like what you hear? Connect with Hiroaki on LinkedIn. Explore SAFe courses here.

Chris Sims: Middle Management, The Forgotten Layer in Agile Transformations Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. Chris Sims recounts his experience with a rapidly growing startup that decided to adopt Scrum to address slowing delivery. When a VP championed the initiative, Chris provided training that generated excitement at the team level. However, they overlooked a critical component: the middle management layer. As teams embraced Scrum, they found themselves caught between multiple sources of direction—their direct managers, project managers, and newly established Product Owners with backlogs. This created confusion as middle managers, who weren't included in the transformation discussions, continued operating in their traditional ways. The result was teams appearing busy yet delivering slowly. Chris emphasizes the importance of considering how management roles evolve during agile transformations, deliberately redefining job descriptions, and helping managers find ways to bring value in the new structure rather than undermining it unintentionally. Self-reflection Question: In your organization's agile transformation, how are you addressing the needs and concerns of middle managers whose roles might be significantly impacted? [Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends]

Richard Brenner: When Individual Performance Metrics Block Agile Transformation Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. Richard shares an experience of implementing Agile methods in a large organization that initially showed promising signs with management "pull" for change. The transformation began well with cross-functional teams created through self-selection workshops. However, unexpected resistance emerged during the kick-off day, particularly from a line manager and his team. When investigating the source of this resistance, Richard discovered that the company's bonus structure was tied to individual performance metrics, fundamentally conflicting with Agile's team-oriented approach.  This insight led to developing a pilot for a team-focused performance management system. After three months, the team held a retrospective with all stakeholders, where management demonstrated remarkable leadership by empowering teams to redesign their structure when the initial setup wasn't working. This flexibility allowed even the most vocal critics to become part of the solution. Self-reflection Question: In what ways might your organization's reward structures be unintentionally blocking successful Agile adoption? [Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends]

What's the best strategy for an organization undergoing a very large Agile transformation to see tangible, sustainable results? Scaled Agile strategic advisor Travis Moorer shares his tips in this episode. Like what you hear? Connect with Travis on LinkedIn. Explore SAFe courses here.

Richard Brenner: Skipping the Vision, How Not to Introduce Kanban Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. Richard shares an important learning experience from introducing Kanban to teams using a top-down approach. Without clearly articulating why the change was needed, team members questioned what they were doing wrong that necessitated change. Richard found himself unable to connect the organizational vision to the methodology shift, leading to resistance. He emphasizes the importance of first understanding the problem before applying Scrum or Kanban, defining what success looks like, and involving people early in the change process. Richard also recommends thorough contracting with client organizations to assess their current state and understand who is trying to change what, and why. In this episode, we refer to Kotter's book Leading Change. Self-reflection Question: How might your change initiatives be improved by spending more time defining the "why" before introducing new methodologies? [Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends]

In this candid and experience-rich conversation, Kate and Ryan unpack the most common reasons Agile transformations fail.  From lack of purpose and misunderstood roles to cultural resistance and tool obsession, this blog distills their insights into a practical top ten list.  Whether you're beginning your Agile journey or mid-transformation, this podcast is a must listen to!

Zvonimir Durcevic: Context Diagramming, Helping Agile Teams See Their Complex Communication Network Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. Zvonimir shares a story about a five-person team developing an important product who maintained good internal dynamics but limited their interaction with the rest of the organization. Despite delivering quality work, they were viewed as a "difficult team" by stakeholders. When Zvone joined, he conducted assessments and introduced context diagramming to map the team's relationships and dependencies. This exercise revealed the complexity of their communication network and helped the team understand that cutting off relationships with stakeholders was counterproductive. The breakthrough came when the team began using the context diagram to explain their situation to others, helping stakeholders recognize how organizational factors were affecting the team's work. Self-reflection Question: How might mapping your team's communication network reveal disconnects that are affecting your effectiveness? Featured Book of the Week: Agile Transformation by Michael Spayd Zvonimir recommends "Agile Transformation" by Michael Spayd as a resource that helped him understand how to examine systems through different lenses. The book provides multiple perspectives for gaining deeper insights into the systems we work with. Zvone particularly values the book's ability to help practitioners look beyond surface-level issues and understand underlying dynamics in organizations undergoing Agile transformations. In this section we talk about the Integral agile transformation framework. [Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends]

In this episode of the Scrum.org Community Podcast, Dave West and PST Andy Brandt explore the state of Agile transformations and the shift toward the Agile Product Operating Model (APOM) as featured in their recently written whitepaper. While Agile has been widely adopted, challenges like misalignment between business strategy and technical execution persist. Andy shares how focusing on products instead of work and starting small with one team can drive meaningful change. They discuss the role of AI in enhancing productivity, the importance of organizational alignment, and how executive commitment can lead to spectacular results. Tune in to learn how to move beyond Agile transformations and embrace a product-first mindset!Referenced whitepaper: Moving Beyond Agile Transformations: Leveraging the Agile Product Operating Model

Product Manager Brian Orlando and Enterprise Business Agility Coach Om Patel are listening and reacting to Melissa Perri on Lenny's Podcast as she makes claims about product management, agile, frameworks, and why most companies struggle with product management. We discuss many of her claims, including:Product Management has nothing to do with the Manifesto for Agile Software DevelopmentScrum is only for Large OrganizationsLarge Organizations Lack Infrastructure to support Product ManagementRigid Processes Can Crash Your Entire Company...and many, many more!Whether you're in a startup or enterprise, Silicon Valley or your average FinTech, this discussion offers practical insights on balancing process with customer-centricity.#ProductManagement #AgileLeadership #TeamDevelopmentTags: product management, agile coaching, scrum, kanban, product strategy, team development, organizational design, product owner, product manager, safe framework, agile transformation, continuous delivery, silicon valley, enterprise agileReferences:Lenny's Podcast with Melissa Perri, https://youtu.be/wbi9chsAHp4Marteen Dalmijn's newsletter about Waternet: https://mdalmijn.com/p/how-a-digital-transformation-canAA199 - W. Edwards Deming's Profound Knowledge for Transforming OrganizationsAA187 - The Future of AI, According to Big Tech= = = = = = = = = = = =YouTubehttps://youtu.be/c0htPyVTKeESubscribe on YouTubehttps://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8XUSoJPxGPI8EtuUAHOb6g?sub_confirmation=1Applehttps://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/agile-podcast/id1568557596Spotifyhttps://open.spotify.com/show/362QvYORmtZRKAeTAE57v3= = = = = = = = = = = =Toronto Is My Beat (Music Sample)By Whitewolf (Source: https://ccmixter.org/files/whitewolf225/60181)CC BY 4.0 DEED (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/deed.en)

BONUS: Challenging the Agile Status Quo with #NoBacklogs, Allan Kelly In this BONUS episode, we explore the provocative ideas of Allan Kelly, the author who introduced #NoBacklogs to the Agile community. Allan shares his insights on why traditional backlogs may be hindering true agility, offers practical alternatives, and explains how teams can maintain accountability while focusing on outcomes rather than outputs. The Problem with Traditional Backlogs "Backlogs keep ideas for far too long." Allan Kelly challenges the conventional wisdom of maintaining extensive backlogs in Agile environments. He distinguishes between sprint backlogs and product backlogs, highlighting how the latter often becomes a repository for stale ideas that outlive their relevance. Allan argues that this practice undermines the adaptability that should be at the core of Agile methodologies, transforming what should be a flexible approach into a more rigid, traditional project management framework. Outcome-Focused Alternatives "What are you doing to try and change the world?" Instead of lengthy backlogs filled with specific tasks and features, Allan advocates for approaches centered on outcomes and meaningful change. He discusses the concept of OKRs (Objectives and Key Results) as a form of "test first management" - a powerful framework that shifts focus from outputs to measurable impacts. This perspective encourages teams to consider the broader purpose of their work rather than simply executing a predetermined list of tasks. Balancing Structure and Flexibility "There should be a 'Best before' date for all backlog items." Finding the right balance between necessary structure and agile flexibility is crucial for effective delivery. Allan suggests implementing a "best before" date for all backlog items to prevent the accumulation of outdated ideas. He emphasizes starting with the Sprint Goal as a guiding principle, using it to create focus and purpose that allows teams to adapt their approach while maintaining a clear direction. Breaking Free from Traditional Mindsets "The work to do is not a fixed entity." According to Allan, the reliance on extensive backlogs has perpetuated traditional project management mindsets within supposedly Agile organizations. He challenges the underlying assumption that the scope of work is a predetermined, fixed entity waiting to be discovered and documented. Instead, he suggests embracing the evolving nature of work, allowing teams to respond to changing priorities and insights as they emerge. Maintaining Accountability Without Backlogs "Test first management as a management innovation that helps focus on goals, and measure progress by the teams." Allan addresses concerns about accountability by offering practical approaches to tracking progress without traditional backlogs. He emphasizes the importance of regular demonstrations of working solutions and assessing whether these demonstrations align with the team's strategic direction. His concept of "test first management" provides a framework for focusing on goals while measuring genuine progress rather than simply tracking task completion. Resources for Deeper Learning "Honey, I shrunk the backlog." For listeners interested in exploring these ideas further, Allan recommends his YouTube presentation "Honey, I shrunk the backlog," which offers additional insights and practical guidance on implementing a #NoBacklogs approach in Agile teams. About Allan Kelly Allan Kelly is the author of #noprojects: A Culture of Continuous Value, and an outspoken Agile practitioner that helped introduce the idea of #NoBacklogs to the Agile community. His work spans several decades, and includes some breakthrough contributions that he shares in his books and conference talks. He is the author, among others, of Project Myopia: Why projects damage software, Continuous Digital: An agile alternative to projects for digital business, The Art of Agile Product Ownership: A Guide for Product Managers, Business Analysts, and Entrepreneurs, and Xanpan: Team Centric Agile Software Development. You can link with Allan Kelly on LinkedIn.

Anuj Ojha: Beyond the Iron Triangle, A Path to True Agility Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. Anuj shares his journey of understanding the complexities behind Scrum implementation, particularly when faced with fixed time and scope demands. He emphasizes the importance of learning to communicate effectively with different stakeholders in their own language. Through experience, he discovered that the traditional iron triangle (fixed time, scope, and resources) is a fiction in agile environments. His key insight is that while you can fix two sides of the triangle, attempting to fix all three undermines agility. He suggests building cases for critical needs like technical debt and ensuring all voices are heard when determining what's possible. Self-reflection Question: How do you handle situations where stakeholders demand certainty in all three aspects of the iron triangle? [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends]

We're exploring the growing anti-Agile sentiment among developers as the agile-industrial complex has stitched together a grotesque imitation of what was once a vibrant movement. Like Frankenstein's creation, what began with noble intentions has transformed into something both villagers and developers flee from in horror!Before lighting our torches and brandishing our pitchforks, we examine the common complaints: lightning-rod meetings that drain life force, the monster of micromanagement wearing agile's skin, the cruel illusion of self-organization, and the chains of cross-team dependencies binding teams to their suffering. We dissect the organizational structures that, like misguided scientists, fundamentally misunderstand the natural advantages of agility, creating abominations that shamble through corporate hallways.#AgileLeadership #ProductDevelopment #TeamEmpowermentReferences:AA199 - W. Edwards Deming's Profound Knowledge for Transforming Organizations, 2025Eric Ries - The Lean Startup: How Today's Entrepreneurs Use Continuous Innovation to Create Radically Successful Businesses, 2011Jeffrey Bezos - Bezos API Mandate, 2002Who Moved My Cheese - Spencer Johnson, 1998Extreme Ownership: How U.S. Navy SEALs Lead and Win - Jocko Willink, 2017= = = = = = = = = = = =YouTube= = = = = = = = = = = =Subscribe on YouTubeAppleSpotify= = = = = = = = = = = =Toronto Is My Beat (Music Sample)By Whitewolf (Source: https://ccmixter.org/files/whitewolf225/60181)CC BY 4.0 DEED (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/deed.en)

Season Hughes: Understanding the "Why" Behind Agile Transformation Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. Drawing from her consulting experience, Season shares valuable insights about leading successful Agile transformations. Rather than simply implementing Scrum, she emphasizes the importance of understanding organizational motivations by asking crucial questions like "Why do you want this change?" and "What does success look like?"  She outlines a comprehensive approach that begins with foundational training using the Scrum Guide, followed by Liftoff workshops to establish team foundations, working agreements, and regular check-ins to support continuous improvement. In this segment, we refer to the Liftoff book, by Diana Larsen and Ainsley Niles. Self-reflection Question: What steps are you taking to understand and align with your organization's transformation goals? [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends]

BONUS: The Future of Agility, Insights from Industry Research with Simon Powers Is Agile really dead? What does this wide research from industry reveal?  In this detailed, and insightful episode, we explore the current state and future of agility with Simon Powers, founder of The Deeper Change Academy. Simon shares insights from his comprehensive survey conducted between October and December 2024, which included 311 survey responses, 15 case studies, and 8 in-depth interviews with senior leaders. The Current State of Agility The research reveals that while there's been a decline in traditional agile roles and certifications since October 2023, approximately 70% of organizations continue to invest in agile practices and transformations. However, these initiatives are often being rebranded and restructured, moving away from traditional "agile transformation" terminology. "Organizations are still embracing agility and moving forward with change, but what they're doing is that the names they're using are changing. People aren't necessarily being employed as agile coaches, but the agile coaching responsibilities are still required within organizations." Leadership Development and Organizational Structure A critical finding shows that leadership development in many organizations has stalled, creating two distinct organizational patterns: Organizations focused primarily on operational efficiencies, resulting in decreased agility Companies that have embraced coaching as a management tool and invested in leadership development "The culture is very different depending on where you sit. When you're constantly competing against a head count of a developer versus that of a coach, you're less able to take the necessary risks, talk to the right people, do bolder experiments, and have more of an effect within the organization." The Impact of Funding Models The research identified that the funding model for agile initiatives significantly impacts their success. Centrally funded transformation efforts tend to be more successful than those funded through departmental headcount, as they provide greater authority and ability to drive change across the organization. "Where people are hired or paid for within the head count, the overwhelming majority - like 90% of people who are in that position - are reporting that they do not have the authority to actually carry out the roles that they have responsibility for." Collaboration and Remote Work The survey revealed interesting insights about optimal collaboration patterns in the post-pandemic era: The sweet spot for office presence appears to be 2-3 days per week Full remote work can significantly reduce collaboration effectiveness Physical presence remains important for developing leadership skills and team dynamics "Being at home 100% of the time is a big reduction of collaboration and working on things and growing these skill sets that are needed in leadership as well as within the teams." Future Trends and Challenges Looking ahead, the research highlights several key areas that will shape the future of agility: Team structures remain a critical factor in software delivery capability The need for better strategy tools at senior leadership levels The importance of breaking down silos in software development The continued evolution of agile practices to meet increasing complexity "Organizations are going to need to sort out these problems that we've been slowly solving through agility for the last 20 years. We're just going to be continuing on, but what flavor? I don't know." About Simon Powers Simon Powers is the founder of The Deeper Change Academy and author of "Change: A Practitioner's Guide to Enterprise Coaching." With over 20 years of leadership experience, Simon empowers HR leaders and department heads to create thriving, human-centered workplace cultures through tailored coaching, strategic advisory, and transformational programs. You can link with Simon Powers on LinkedIn.

Send us a textIn this conversation, Jardena London—an Agile practitioner and author—discusses the concept of creating “soulful” organizations. Drawing on her background in software development, Jardena noticed that the real challenges weren't purely technical; instead, they stemmed from how people and teams work together.She highlights three core conditions for soulfulness in any organization:Dignity – Ensuring people are treated with respect, rather than being forced to earn basic self-worth through work.Creativity – Making space for genuine problem-solving and innovation, as opposed to purely transactional or process-driven work that drains energy.Human Connection – Fostering collaboration and openness instead of merely relying on rigid handoffs and “automated” communication.Jardena contrasts these elements with environments that “crush the soul,” where strict processes, ego-driven leadership, or lack of trust discourage creativity and honest dialogue. She believes leaders have a key role in setting conditions: by becoming more self-aware, staying curious (especially in high-stakes situations), and listening actively, they can reduce friction and remove obstacles for their teams.From an organization design perspective, Jardena advocates looking at formal structures, processes, and policies—like budgeting or performance reviews—and asking how they might be unintentionally stifling dignity, creativity, or connection. Then, leaders should revisit the original purpose of these processes and rebuild them in ways that restore or enhance soulfulness.Ultimately, Jardena's message is that while efficiency and outcomes matter, they are achieved more sustainably when leaders and teams operate with humanity at the forefront—creating organizations where people's energy and creativity can flourish.Support the show

Antti Horelli: Balancing Delivery Pressure with Agile Transformation Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. Antti shares his experience leading an agile transformation across three siloed organizations: development, QA/testing, and support. The transformation involved establishing cross-functional teams and implementing visual management through a comprehensive planning wall. Despite initial progress with joint planning days and rolling wave planning, the pressure to deliver led to reverting to traditional project management approaches. This story highlights the challenge of maintaining agile principles while under delivery pressure and the importance of focusing on reliable delivery rather than agile for agile's sake. Self-reflection Question: How do you balance the need for immediate results with long-term agile transformation goals? [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends]

Ellen Grove: Managing Change in Complex Organizational Cultures Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. Ellen reflects on her early experiences as a Scrum Master, facing challenges in an environment that resisted the introduction of Scrum. She shares valuable lessons about handling external resistance, managing personal expectations, and avoiding emotional burnout when navigating organizational change. Ellen emphasizes the importance of focusing on what can be influenced and detaching from outcomes beyond one's control. Self-reflection Question: How do you maintain focus and resilience when dealing with resistance to Scrum in your organization? [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends]

Robert Finan: Flexible Change Processes, How To Adopt Agile With An Agile Approach Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. Robert discusses how top-down, project managed Agile transformations often fail to account for the complexity of change. By focusing on flexibility, inspect/adapt cycles, and bringing comfort to the change process, Scrum Masters can guide organizations away from one-size-fits-all solutions and toward the sustainable improvement that is the hallmark of Agile. Self-reflection Question: How can you bring comfort to the change process in your organization? [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends]

Robert Finan: The Challenges of Trying Too Hard in an Agile Transformation Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. Robert shares his experience of burning out after just four months in a challenging Agile transformation. He reflects on the mistake of trying to push his vision without meeting the organization where it was. By facing embedded structures and resistance, Robert learned the value of pragmatism, experimentation, and nudging change instead of forcing it. Self-reflection Question: Have you ever faced resistance when introducing change? How can you adjust your approach to meet people where they are? [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends]

Xmas Special: Investing in Software: Alternatives To Project Management For Software Businesses With Vasco Duarte In the grand finale of the “5 Wishes for 2025” series, Vasco Duarte tackles the chaotic nature of software development and why traditional project management just doesn't cut it. Drawing on lessons from weather models, butterflies, and Agile practices, Vasco presents a bold manifesto for how we can thrive in uncertainty. Chaos Theory and Software Development “Project management is like trying to predict where a butterfly will land after flying through a hurricane – good luck with that!” Vasco begins with the story of Edward Lorenz, the MIT meteorologist who discovered what was later called the “butterfly effect.” This concept illuminates and explains the unpredictability of software development, where tiny changes can lead to massive, unexpected consequences – like a simple tweak spiraling into a full system refactor. Why Traditional Project Management Falls Short “Planning your year's meals in January? That's about as realistic as predicting October's sushi cravings!” Vasco humorously dismantles the premise of project management, which assumes stability, predictability, and complete information upfront. While Agile provides a more flexible approach, it's often misused as “project management in disguise,” failing to unlock the true potential of adaptability. The 2025 Manifesto: A New Way to Invest in Software “Loving Gantt charts is like loving fax machines – there's a better way!” Vasco outlines his four-point manifesto for how organizations can thrive in uncertainty: Fund Software Incrementally: Treat funding like stock market investing – small, regular investments over time. Think Like an Investor: Focus on maximizing returns, not rigidly executing plans. Experiment by Default: Acknowledge that the best ideas come from testing and iterating. Give Teams End-to-End Ownership: Empower teams to own their work from idea to delivery, eliminating micromanagement. The Need for Agility at All Levels “Scrum teams in a project management organization are like race car drivers stuck in traffic jams – all that potential, nowhere to go!” Vasco emphasizes that agility must extend beyond individual teams. Organizations need to embrace Agile principles at every level to avoid stifling innovation and potential. And his approach to funding and managing software investments does exactly that: bring agility to the decision making forums in the organization, instead of keeping it at the team level. A Wish for 2025: Embrace the Chaos “Butterflies don't follow project plans, and neither does software development!” Vasco's final wish for 2025 is for organizations to stop forcing software into rigid project management frameworks. Instead, they should embrace the unpredictable nature of development, leveraging incremental funding, iterative experimentation, and team empowerment to thrive in uncertainty. See It in Action: Global Agile Summit 2025 “Want to see how real organizations are thriving in chaos? Join us in Tallinn!” Vasco invites listeners to the Global Agile Summit 2025 in Tallinn, Estonia, where forward-thinking organizations will share their stories of breaking free from traditional project management. Holiday listeners can grab a 75% discounted Super Early Bird ticket at GlobalAgileSummit.com. About Vasco Duarte Vasco Duarte is a thought leader in the Agile space, co-founder of Agile Finland, and host of the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast, which has over 10 million downloads. Author of NoEstimates: How To Measure Project Progress Without Estimating, Vasco is a sought-after speaker and consultant helping organizations embrace Agile practices to achieve business success. You can link with Vasco Duarte on LinkedIn.

BONUS: A Coaching Masterclass - How Our Language Affects Our Leadership Style, And The Culture We Create, With Michelle Pauk and Victor Pena In this BONUS episode, Victor Pena and Michelle Pauk dive deep into the power of language in shaping our work as leaders, Agile Coaches, and Scrum Masters. Together, we explore how the words we use influence relationships, decisions, and the success of Agile practices. From navigating the ambiguity of language to fostering effective communication, this episode provides actionable insights to help you thrive in a constantly changing workplace. Language as a Culture Carrier “Language is how we carry culture, but without clarity, it can lead to misalignment and conflict.” Victor and Michelle discuss how language reflects and shapes workplace culture. Misaligned terminology—like “servant leader”—can create tension between teams and executives. They highlight the importance of achieving shared understanding and the role of language in fostering trust and collaboration. “Start by asking what others mean by key words—it's the first step toward alignment.” Feedforward vs. Feedback “Feedback gets us stuck in the past, while feedforward builds a path to a better future.” Drawing inspiration from Marshall Goldsmith, we discuss how focusing on future-oriented improvement (feedforward) avoids the blame game and builds positive momentum. As Agile practitioners, shifting from root cause analysis to solution-focused coaching allows teams to move forward effectively. “Ask yourself, what can we do better tomorrow instead of dwelling on what went wrong yesterday?” The Ambiguity of Language in Collaboration “Words mean different things to different people—be curious about how others see the world.” Victor and Michelle unpack how language ambiguity impacts communication and decision-making. They emphasize the need to explore the assumptions behind others' words and how Agile principles like #NoEstimates challenge traditional views on planning and work management. “When you encounter a term that seems obvious, ask: What does this mean to you?” Semiotics and the Language of Work “Symbols are the silent drivers of collaboration.” Semiotics, the study of symbols, plays a vital role in Agile practices like visual management. From story cards to team boards, symbols help teams communicate and navigate their work. The duo discusses how the language of Agile evolves through symbols and how to introduce these effectively in organizations. “Create visual symbols that align with your team's values—they'll anchor your collaboration.” Beyond the “Agile is Dead” Debate, Raising The Bar Of Our Shared Conversation “What's trying to come forward in the evolution of Agile?” While some criticize Agile as outdated, Victor and Michelle argue that its core principles—delivering value faster and improving quality—remain timeless. They explore how Agile can evolve to meet current challenges while retaining its essence. “Instead of asking if Agile is dead, ask what the next evolution looks like.” About Victor Pena and Michelle Pauk Victor Pena is an Agile Coach dedicated to helping organizations achieve business agility. With a focus on innovation, collaboration, and delivering great customer value, Victor transforms practices to ensure long-term success in a dynamic environment. You can link with Victor Pena on LinkedIn and connect with him via email at victor@vpena.com. Michelle Pauk is the founder of Streamside Coaching, helping leaders and organizations thrive through change. With over 15 years of experience in Agile environments and certifications from the International Coaching Federation, Michelle specializes in leadership development and organizational growth. You can link with Michelle Pauk on LinkedIn and connect with her at StreamsideCoaching.com.

Karthiga Seturaj: Leading Agile Transformations with the Flow Framework Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. Karthiga discusses an agile transformation involving the adoption of the Flow Framework and Spotify model. With leadership support and tools like Lean Change Canvas, the transition fostered psychological safety, adaptability, and feedback-driven improvement. Key lessons include measuring the current state, establishing clear success criteria, and embracing agility in agile adoption. Self-reflection Question: How can you ensure psychological safety during major changes in your organization? [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends]

Sara Caldwell: Vulnerability as a Tool for Overcoming Change Resistance in an Agile Transformation Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. Agile transformations often face resistance from leaders and project managers, especially when their roles feel uncertain. In this episode, Sara shares how communication and stakeholder management can mitigate these challenges. Through vulnerability and strategic stakeholder engagement, Sara learned the importance of integrating empathy into the change process, emphasizing that “people aren't the process.” Tune in to discover tips for leading systemic change effectively. Self-reflection Question: How can you incorporate empathy and vulnerability into your stakeholder engagement strategies? [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends]