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After Dark with Hosts Rob & Andrew – For four years, the Biden-Harris Administration has purposely left the border wide open, allowing illegals (not immigrants) to breach the border and invade the country. Border patrol officers estimate that over 10 million illegals have invaded our country and are unvetted. It comes as no surprise to hear that an Afghan national, Nasir Ahmad Tawhidi was amongst the...
After Dark with Hosts Rob & Andrew – For four years, the Biden-Harris Administration has purposely left the border wide open, allowing illegals (not immigrants) to breach the border and invade the country. Border patrol officers estimate that over 10 million illegals have invaded our country and are unvetted. It comes as no surprise to hear that an Afghan national, Nasir Ahmad Tawhidi was amongst the...
On today's show we discuss intersectionality, liberation and veganism with our guest, Andrew. Andrew is a Melbourne born, raised, and based vegan activist of 18 years, advocating for human and non-human animal rights and social justice issues, whilst also raising a young vegan family. Being proudly Māori, Andrew is focussed on decolonialism in thought and praxis, intersectionality and allyship, and applying these principles to strengthen connections across a variety of communities, and currently invested in Palestinian liberation and anti-war efforts. Links:Kristy Alger's book: Five Essays for Freedom: A Political Primer for Animal Advocates https://revoltbooks.com/products/feffAp Ko and Syl Ko's book: Aphro-ism: Essays on Pop Culture, Feminism, & Black Veganism from Two Sisters https://lanternpm.org/book/aphro-ism/ Christopher Sebastian: https://www.christophersebastian.info/Stewart Mitchell: Vigilante Vegan https://www.instagram.com/p/CWFSf_Ds1v2/Yvette Baker: Collective Abolition https://www.instagram.com/collectiveabolition/ Quote read by Andrew: For some readers, I anticipate that this approach to animal rights may seem radical, even incoherent. However, such surprise only affirms the dominance of “White veganism” and liberal humanist rights rhetoric in mainstream animal rights discourse.~ S. Marek Muller. Impersonating Animals: Rhetoric, Ecofeminism, and Animal Rights LawSongs;Dear Coach's Corner (Propagandhi) New Ethic (Earth Crisis) Burning Bridges (Chokehold) June marks 3CR's RADIOTHON at the station and this year's theme is ‘Sound on for Solidarity'. 'Solidarity' has been at the heart of 3CR's work for nearly five decades across a range of issues and themes. We rely on your financial solidarity during June to keep independent, radical radio on the airwaves. Any amount makes a big difference, and all donations over $2 are tax deductible. If you would like to contribute to the Freedom of Species target of $1300 towards the 3CR Radiothon target of $275,000, you can donate here: https://givenow.com.au/cr/freedomofspecies You can also donate online, via phone or in-person at 3CR. All the details are here: https://www.3cr.org.au/donate If you have any feedback on our show or would like to contact us, please email the FoS team at freedomofspecies@gmail.com Thank you for listening.
INTRODUCTION: EPISODE #100!!! AMOR ES ARTE | ARTE ES AMORLOVE IS ART | ART IS LOVEA memoir written by Andrew Velázquez Through the lens of lotería—the Latinx game of chance, I explore my experience of being gay, young, and a creative loco in East Los Angeles. I reimagine ten lotería cards to represent the people and events that shaped my first 40 years of life. Each chapter testifies to a lotería card image such as El Diablito (Little Devil), La Rosa (Rose), and La Muerte (Death). Using these cards of destiny, I find my true self to navigate the world. My memoir defies the conventional thinking that a sensitive, lonely barrio kid, traumatized by relationship abuse and family crises, eventually falls victim to gang violence, addiction, or suicide. I bring my stories and images together to show how I overcome self-destructive behavior and how I channel my energies toward a successful career in Hollywood's beauty industry. I tell an against-the-odds life story that connects self-acceptance to art and love. Andrew is also a makeup artist:This born and bred Angeleno always knew he was meant for a career in beauty. Andrew has created signature looks for some of Hollywood's brightest stars including Lady Gaga, Michelle Williams, RuPaul, Demi Levato, Neil Patrick Harris & Carmen Electra. As a makeup artist on ”Keeping Up with the Kardashians,” Andrew regularly created the sisters red carpet ready looks and at the 2010 MTV Video Music Awards, he was the key makeup artist for Florence and the Machine, including applying avatar-like body makeup for her radiant dancers. INCLUDED IN THIS EPISODE (But not limited to): · Lots of Fan Clacking!!!· Mí Corazón – Andrew's Makeup Line· Amor Es Arte, Arte Es Amor – Andrew's Memoir· Being Raised In The LatinX Community· MADONNA· Los Angeles Nostalgia · Prevalent Insecurity In the LGBTQIA+ Community · Coming Out· Angels In The Psych Ward· Andrew On American Beauty Star (Top Three)CONNECT WITH ANDREW: Website - Book - Makeup: https://AndrewVelazquez.comYouTube: https://www.YouTube.com/AndrewVelazquezInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/andrewvelazquez_Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/andrewvelazquezcom CONNECT WITH DE'VANNON: Website: https://www.SexDrugsAndJesus.comWebsite: https://www.DownUnderApparel.comTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@sexdrugsandjesusYouTube: https://bit.ly/3daTqCMFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/SexDrugsAndJesus/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sexdrugsandjesuspodcast/Twitter: https://twitter.com/TabooTopixLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/devannonPinterest: https://www.pinterest.es/SexDrugsAndJesus/_saved/Email: DeVannon@SDJPodcast.com DE'VANNON'S RECOMMENDATIONS:· Survivors of Narcissistic Abuse & Codependency Support Groups (Virtual) - https://www.meetup.com/pittsburgh-narcissism-survivor-meetup-group/· COSA – 12 Step Recovery For Victims Of Compulsive Sexual Behavior - https://cosa-recovery.org· A Recommended Reading To Help Heal From Narcissism - https://amzn.to/41sg6FO · Pray Away Documentary (NETFLIX)o https://www.netflix.com/title/81040370o TRAILER: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk_CqGVfxEs · OverviewBible (Jeffrey Kranz)o https://overviewbible.como https://www.youtube.com/c/OverviewBible · Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed (Documentary)o https://press.discoveryplus.com/lifestyle/discovery-announces-key-participants-featured-in-upcoming-expose-of-the-hillsong-church-controversy-hillsong-a-megachurch-exposed/ · Leaving Hillsong Podcast With Tanya Levino https://leavinghillsong.podbean.com · Upwork: https://www.upwork.com· FreeUp: https://freeup.net VETERAN'S SERVICE ORGANIZATIONS · Disabled American Veterans (DAV): https://www.dav.org· American Legion: https://www.legion.org · What The World Needs Now (Dionne Warwick): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfHAs9cdTqg INTERESTED IN PODCASTING OR BEING A GUEST?: · PodMatch is awesome! This application streamlines the process of finding guests for your show and also helps you find shows to be a guest on. The PodMatch Community is a part of this and that is where you can ask questions and get help from an entire network of people so that you save both money and time on your podcasting journey.https://podmatch.com/signup/devannon TRANSCRIPT: ANDREW VELÁZQUEZ [00:00:00]You're listening to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast, where we discuss whatever the fuck we want to! And yes, we can put sex and drugs and Jesus all in the same bed and still be all right at the end of the day. My name is De'Vannon and I'll be interviewing guests from every corner of this world as we dig into topics that are too risqué for the morning show, as we strive to help you understand what's really going on in your life.There is nothing off the table and we've got a lot to talk about. So let's dive right into this episode.De'Vannon: Andrew Velázquez is here with me today to mark the 100th episode of The Sex Drugs in Jesus podcast, and that is a huge accomplishment. Y'all and I could not be more grateful. Thank you, God. Thank you everyone who listens to and supports this show now, Andrew has written the book, it's called.Love is art. Art is love or amor, esp.He also had the makeup line called me[00:01:00]and do the celebrity makeup artist and alsoan educator.Now in his memoir, Andrew defies the conventional thinking that a sensitive, lonely barrio kid who's been traumatized by relationship abuse and family crises must eventually fall victim of gang violence, addiction, or suicide. In his book, Andrew brings stories and images together to show how he was able to overcome self-destructive behavior.Establish a successful career and bring art and love together in a way that's never been done before.Now Andrew has created signature looks for some of Hollywood's brightest stars all including Lady Gaga, RuPaul Dimmi, Lovato, Neil, Patrick Harris, you name it. He's done. Please listen in as Andrew and I get real and vulnerable with you that are to help someone lonely, isolated, and hurting out there. We love you.Hello all of you beautiful people out there and welcome back to the Sex Drugs in Jesus podcast. I'm your host Devon, and I have with me [00:02:00] today for our 100th episodes, a beautiful, talented, incredible, lovely. Queer creative with a beautiful wavy hair that you see right there. Andrew Velazquez. Darling, how are you?Hello. Andrew: Good. How are you coming? So I had that, and if you need that sound audio again, that, De'Vannon: God, Andrew: that thing is huge. Thank you so much for having me. Yes. I'm gotta, I gotta get you one. I'm gonna send you one. De'Vannon: Gosh, that thing is to be beautiful. So y'all, so before I get into Andrew here, the 100th episode is a really big fucking deal.And why it is is because most podcasts is, I understand they don't make it to this point. People get into just about anything in this world for all kinds of reasons. And podcasting is one of those things that looks glitzy. It looks glamorous. So everybody wants to go run off and start a podcast. And [00:03:00]then you see most of them, I got like 10 episodes, 15 episodes, you know, or they might do like, you know, maybe like 10 episodes a year.You know, I hit the ground running a year before last, and I didn't stop. I released a show every week, nonstop, every Thursday, you know, you know, unless some shit done went down. But generally speaking, it's every Thursday. And so it's a really big fucking deal to make it to episode 100. This means I'm serious, that I'm committed.This is meant to be and it is gonna be here to stay. Andrew: Oh, happy for you. Congratulations, congrat. Congratulations. So happy for you. It is definitely a milestone. Yeah. Well earned, well deserved all De'Vannon: that. Thank you. And so, when I was toiling over who the hell I could get to, to share this moment with me Andrew's, Andrew's people reached out to me, and his story is so enigmatic, it's so cataclysmic, it's so polarizing, and I felt like I had so much in common with him.He's from Los Angeles. Everybody who [00:04:00] knows me knows the City of Angels is all I talk about. I love la I was out there in the military and everything. I'm obsessed with that city. And when I'm rich enough, I will go back and you know, I'm queer and I love me some Latin men, that's all the dick I used to get when I was out there.I, I've sat on plenty of Latin dick Andrew: and that's right. We're dangerous too though. We're spicy and dangerous. De'Vannon: So am I. So we always, along y'all, he's an author. He has his own memoir out. He and our both 40 years old, he's a celebrity makeup artist. He's worked with Lady Gaga, Demi Vato fucking like everybody.He's an educator. He's a spirit light worker. He is a healer. Y'all. He's, he, he's like me. You know, like, you don't have to worry about what you're gonna talk to with somebody like this cause he is done so much, you know, it's just how we're gonna get through this hour and give you credit. So he is literally [00:05:00] the definition of everything, and that is why he is here today for episode one.Double O tell us about yourself, Andrew: baby. Wow. I mean, that just, I, I have chills. Your listeners can't see this, but yeah. I am so honored to be here for your hundred episode. Congratulations on all of your successes and what you're doing. The service you provide, the light, I feel it, the energy that you're exuding, it's beautiful.And I know that your followers and your audience appreciate that too, because you're healing. That's why good things are coming to you. I'm gonna call you divine cuz I see only a divine human being in front of me and that's exactly what you are getting the divinity of, of life. And yeah, that's, that's my philosophy too is, you know, I first generation Mexican-American parents are immigrants from Mexico.They met in their teens and I was their first born in East La Boyle [00:06:00] Heights. And yeah, being raised in such like a macho area was a little difficult for me for being just a such creative, feminine, flamboyant kid. And everything that I was trying to be a kept being told that it was wrong.Cause you know, where my parents got married, it was like the church. I was raised Catholic, so I got baptized there. I did my first communion, I did catechism. All, you know, knowing that I'm sinning and because I like boys and trying to hide, that was just, It was heavy. It was really heavy. And my mom just was the first to be like my mentor, my icon.She introduced me to Madonna in the eighties, who I'm obsessed with. I am the proud owner of four Madonna tattoos. She's right here. There's, there's other ones. Yeah, this is from erotica. And she just celebrated her 30th year anniversary for the sex book, which was released here in Miami. [00:07:00]And so she was really like my first, I don't know, my first like muse, you know, watching my mom do her hair and makeup in the eighties and just taking me to cosmetology school while she was going.She just was fierce. Just drag hair, makeup, done, jewelry, accessories, and she was my queen. So for her to support my my arts and my interests in wanting to like be creative meant a lot for me. But, You know, helping raise my brothers. Cause I, I have three younger brothers and my dad worked as a mechanic during the day.A tow truck driver at night was a lot of responsibility for the oldest sibling to, you know, be a provider also and be their mentor. So I just remember like, I don't know, watching 9 0 2 oh saved by the bell and seeing the drama there. And I'm like, why don't I have that drama in my life? Why do these teenagers have all these dramas and I'm this perfect cookie cutter kid helping raise my brothers Like, this is not.[00:08:00] Hmm. So I made the drama and that's chapter three in my book called elto, which means little devil, I call it My bad. And that's really where I started to rebel. And, you know, we all go through like self-discovery and just that cross of like youth child into adolescence. You're not an adult. Yeah, it was just like an awakening moment.I went 180, I just flipped. Went from this perfect kid to just rebel partying with drag queens. Met my first club kids, went to the Rays and the nineties in LA was just all rage. It was so fun. They used to call me Space Boy and I would you know, dress in all these crazy like avan garde colorful outfits.And I finally felt like free and liberated with other creative people and, and queer people. Finally, like my first drag queens, you know talking [00:09:00] like Stacy Hollywood, DJ Irene, like these are the people that I used to party with like in the early nineties. Like it was the hard house. That was just the rage, right?Yeah. So Arena Circus the Alexandria Hotel, like, oh, I remember going to a rave at Knottsberry Farm. The K Rave. Yeah. And it was just so lit that these kids were jumping. Because NASP Prairie Farm had never done that. So they were literally jumping the gates trying to get into, into the rave and just like party out all night.But they canceled it right away and they shut it down. So they never had a rave at ATSP Farm again. But yeah, it was, that was, that was very liberating and finally feeling like I was part of this community. But with, with that nightlife there, there's also a dark side, right? There's also like alcohol, drugs and all of that.And finally, like, experimenting with boys and having my first experiences and [00:10:00] just being exposed to addict addiction and then realizing, oh, my mother, my mother's also an alcoholic and has been suffering from chronic depression. And I was basically her like right hand man. So that was the hardest part to, for her to she kind of like rejected me when I finally came out and.I just went through like, like a huge depression cuz here was this like queen that I used to look up to and then she said, no, this is the route you're going. Like, I don't want anything to do with it. And I ran away and left. But, you know, I remember I'm gonna be extremely vulnerable because that's like, what's, that's what's I think the most important thing to be authentic and, and expose like the truth to, to grow and learn from.But yeah, after a couple suicide attempts that were failed, I was [00:11:00] taken to hospital at psych Ward 51 50 where I discovered therapy. And I just remember having this epiphany and this like my aha moment, right? My my reality check where this young Latino man that was in that only spoke Spanish, looked at me and was like, Andrew, you don't belong here.Like you have a light. What? And, and this was, he was only telling me this in Spanish, and he would write me poetry. And I finally felt like, heard, seen and like I existed in that matter. So I remembered that very distinct moment saying, I don't wanna live this life. Like, I don't wanna go down this dark path.I realized the addiction can, can be real. And it's in my, it's genetically in our family. So I chose to follow my passion and my craft and my career. And at the age of 16, I graduated and took my GD and I just started my [00:12:00] my journey in, in the arts and the fashion industry. So fashion school, cosmetology school, and then working in retail, corporate cosmetics truly saved my life and.Here I am now been in the industry for 22 years, gonna be 23 next month. I've been independent freelance artist for eight years now. I'm a memoir, author of owner of a cosmetic company also. And it's all based around the same thing, like my culture, my passion, my craft. It's called Love is art.Art is love because for me, the other one cannot exist with the other. And in Spanish it's called. So that's the story. It's, it's a lot. I mean, to get the detail, you gotta read the book. I can't give too much away, but that's like the synopsis, De'Vannon: right? And so, yo the book covers beautiful, like he said, like the different cards and everything are on the front.[00:13:00]You know, in Spanish they call it Yeah. Good job. Good job. Yes. I was down till, like, a couple of weeks ago and they were complimenting on my Spanish, and now that I'm back here, it's like I can't fucking put three goddamn syllables. When Andrew: when you're in it. Yeah, when you're in it, it just, it just kind of rolls out. You gotta be in, in the community and then, or vela, that's when it really comes out.Exactly. Would all that, yes. De'Vannon: So I wanna go back and touch on a few things that you said. It, it registered me Absolutely heard you said that, you know, you were raised in that macho community and, you know, the, the Latino community can be very machismo, very toxic, toxically, masculine. Mm-hmm. And, you know, and so, mm-hmm.I remember when I was a kid, I was like super femme and everything like that. And I wanted to play with Ken and Barbie dolls and twirl [00:14:00] around and I'd wear my, me too, right? I'd wear my mother's heels and take a belt and make a dress out of an oversized shirt. And and my dad would take me out into the yard and, you know, insult me and berate me for being feminine and try to make me learn how to box and stuff like that.And I'm all like if I, Andrew: yeah, you're, you were in the De'Vannon: military. I went in the military when I was 17, but this is when I was like, in elementary school. He was out there trying to make me a man, whatever the fuck that's supposed to be, you know? I'm like, no, I wanna see what's under Ken's pants. Damn it.I know you're, Andrew: you're. Surprise though. It was just like flat or a little De'Vannon: bulge. Yes, I am a, I was a baby, right, Lester, when I was in the third grade deal with it. Judge me if you wanna. Andrew: And so we all had that. We all had that. De'Vannon: So I wanna know you mentioned you went from being [00:15:00] good to bad because everything was so good.You, you were trying to find the complications. I felt this way too. When I was in the church. I felt like I was a little bit too good when I get kicked out of the church. Then that's when I got caught up with the drag queens and the alcohol and the drugs. I became a drug dealer. Like you had felt, I felt liberated.I felt like I was being myself. I don't know if I was numbing some of that pain from being kicked out of church. I think I was with the drugs and alcohol. Tell me, did you ever get bad into alcohol or drugs or anything like that? Or, Andrew: or were you able to Oh yeah, absolutely. Yes, for sure. I definitely had some partners that, and some boyfriends that I probably were not the best choices.And in my book, this is chapter five , which is the spider. Just to give you a quick history on it, is Mexican bingo game of chance. And I was [00:16:00] mesmerized by all the artwork cause they resembled tarot, which I didn't even know at the time what tarot was as a child. Cause my mom introduced me to this game and my brothers.But later I realizing that with tarot and with Loya, each card has a symbol. So the reason I chose these tens specific cards is because they resonated with the timeline of my life. And so laa for me is the triggers and traumas of all the bad relationships. I'm not even gonna call 'em bad relationships.I'm gonna call them challenging relationships that have taught me because now I'm I'm at the point where I've done a lot of like self work and I mean, I'm still, I'm, I call myself. A student of University of Mother Nature and I'm always gonna be learning. And so all those moments have helped me realize, you know, that we're all just kind of like these lost little souls, like these lost little angels that are trying to like, figure out and navigate where the right path is.So these partners that I had that did have addiction problems [00:17:00] you know, at the time it was fun because like, yes, everyone's partying and you're just like, you wanting your wasted the quickest thing. I remember just waiting in line at Arena with like Mad Dog 2020 boondog, like the grossest stuff, but we would drink the fastest, cheapest shit to just like get the most shit wasted before we entered the club.Cause it was just like, we gotta get wasted before we get inside the club. Cuz we didn't, we were young, it was ages club, but we were not even old enough to drink and we were just, you know, getting wasted to. Loosen up dance and just like party all night. But through that, like fast forward into like my twenties, you know another Latino individual, this is a, I'm Mexican, so this is a different type of Latino.This, he was Columbian, Ecuadorian, and I just was a different world that I had an experience with, like the salsa me mbia, and then just [00:18:00] the, the lifestyle and the party of that culture. It just kinda like infatuated with me. But as as like fast and heavy and dangerous as it was, is as quick as I realized, like, whoa, this is, like, this can go dark.And he would drink all the time, you know, he would do drugs. He started going to like sex clubs and. I don't know what, where I was mentality wise. Like my self-esteem was just shot and I felt like this is the best that I can do, so I'm just gonna settle with it. I don't know, I really dunno where that came from.But I did, I got a D U I because this one time we partied and he wanted to continue to party and was threatening me if I didn't take him to get more liquor, that he was just gonna go to sex club and do like his own thing. So I felt like obligated [00:19:00] to, all right, I'm gonna take you. And he was driving and it was swerving and then I was like, no, let me take over.So a, after getting that D U I, I just, it was like my rock bottom. It was like my lowest of low because of the partner that I had chose the time. And I'm realizing later in reflection, like. I chose these partners for a reason. And I think I was trying to fix them. I think I was trying to groom them up cause I was introducing them to fashion and art and all that as well.And then all of a sudden they would change. And later I'm realizing like you were trying to fix yourself. Like you were actually, you are projecting what your insecurities were onto this individual and it just counteracted and affected you where you took the dark that was being, and, and you know, dark attracts each other, right?Like light attracts light. And so yeah, [00:20:00] I mean I, I obviously I'm not with that person anymore. Very happily married. We're 13 years together now and gonna be nine years married this May. And that's a lot for a gay man. And, you know, our, because it's, it's, but it's like I realized like I had to go through all those.Relationships and those triggers and traumas to, to like really fix me and love me for all of me. And that's when I, I was able to attract and the person that I kind of deserved and earned and, and actually saw me for me and didn't make me feel judged and didn't make, forced me to be something that I wasn't meant to be.You know? So I honestly, I'm even grateful for all those, those challenging moments for sure. De'Vannon: Right. And so I hear maturity, you know, in your words there because you understand how much good things come from the fire, from heat and intensity. You know, you've really [00:21:00]grown in life when you can grasp that and you don't look at problems and things that make you uncomfortable and things that hurt you as necessarily inherently negative, you know, cuz so much So when I, when I hear you talk about like the alcohol and the drugs and the sex, you know, vice.You know, it's one of the things that really take any anybody down in life. They are a gargantuan problem in the lgbtqia a plus community. Y'all, our people can't get picture is, can't get enough. Crystal meth, can't get enough, all that. Can't get enough Dick, can't get enough calm, can't get, can't get enough blow jobs, can't have enough origin for me.Andrew: For me it's work now though. But yes, there's always something De'Vannon: because you've grown to that point and you know, but before you had to go through being abused by all of these vices. And look, I'm not saying that there's nothing, anything inherently wrong with crystal meth and crack and cocaine and orgies and sex clubs.[00:22:00] But you know, bitch, when you at the sex club every night when you, and you leaving your boyfriend at home and not telling him you're going and when, or if you just at sex club every night, you single or you are high, Andrew: like it's gonna take a toll De'Vannon: eventually. It's gonna take a toll. But my point is, I need people, bitch, I need you to ask yourself what you really doing it for.Because after a point is not for the entertainment lonely or are you insecure? Are you seeking validation in these, right. Keep going back. So our community is hella insecure, no matter how pretty, we are always at the damn gym. Six packs, bubble butts everywhere. And don't nobody like the damn self. I don't see what the fucking point is.Andrew: What's the why? What is that all about? Like what? I'm still trying to figure that out. You know? What does RuPaul call it? Inner saboteur. Some people call it little bitch voice. Like, I think it's just learning how to navigate with that. Like it's [00:23:00] never gonna go away. It's always there. However you can. I, I think through writing this book and through the, the experience that I've, experiences that I have gone through have taught me that through trauma you can transform and triumph into power.You just have to believe it. You just have to know it. And, and really at the end of the day, it's being of service to others like, like you're doing with, with your audience and sh and, and sharing the knowledge and the, the growth. And that's, I think that's like the legacy we all need to leave behind as humans is through our, you know, journeys and our experiences that we can share that and, and share the growth and the tools that have helped shape us to where we are in a stable place, that, that truly brings happiness.Then that can also be infectious, just. And addicting as like alcohol and drugs and sex, you know what I mean? Like the positivity can also be just as addicting. And I [00:24:00] know that we share mutual podcast friends with a survivor to thrive and give 'em a little shout out. And they're on that same mission, you know what I mean?And I feel like it's not a coincidence that we've all been introduced to each other for, you know what I mean? During this time when it is the considered the, the most depressing time of the year, which is also my, happens to be my birthday December 27th. And now we're in January, which is melancholy and can be hard for our community or anybody going through mental health issues.So why not lift each other up and why not celebrate your struggles and, and transform them into something good, you know? Mm-hmm. Whatever that means for you. De'Vannon: The, yeah. Yeah. And I am gonna dig deeper into the mental health aspects of your book in just a moment. And y'all, like he said, you know, he's written his book to help the people's transparency that y'all heard me say a thousand times, [00:25:00] you know, is the greatest form of help because we learn and grow by listening to what other people have gone through.It is a trap when we think we're isolated and alone, when really the person sitting right next to us is either going through the same thing or has gone through the same thing. When I got H I v I thought I was the only one. I thought I was gonna die. I didn't know half the damn queens in Houston at the shit too.No one talked about that. We were too busy doing all the cocaine. Exactly. Doing all the cocaine at F Barn at South Beach, you know, and everywhere else. And at Jrs to do rather than to actually have real conversation. And so he, right, Andrea's wrote, written his book in order to help help some of you save your lives, to prevent you from committing suicide, to stop you from hurting other people, to stop you from hurting yourself.Cuz when you read that book, you're gonna know. Okay, this fucker went through the same shit. Maybe it's not just me. It is incredibly empowering to know that it's not just you or as they say over on Survivor, the thriver know that you are not alone. Andrew: [00:26:00] Absolutely. You said that beautifully. So I wanna know, and that, that's really No, go ahead.Sorry. De'Vannon: Yeah. I wanna know, you mentioned Catholicism from in the past. Mm-hmm. Where are you at in terms of spirituality today? Andrew: Like I said, yeah, I mean, I was born into that. It was it was all I knew, like it was, we lived on that block, you know, where my parents got married, where I was baptized, where I did my first commune and confirmation where I became a godfather.It was it was just when you're, when you're Mexican in east LA that's just what it is. Like, it just gets part, it's like peanut butter jelly comes with the territory. But And I I De'Vannon: about today specifically because people are born mm-hmm. Into all kinds of religions. I was born Pentecostal, you know, that's what you're okay for.Your family gives you, I don't feel like, like the learn behavior. Right. I feel like it's more valid once you become an [00:27:00] adult and you consider all the options. Mm-hmm. If you still wanna stay with that, then I think it becomes authentic. But until then you Yeah. What people told you to do. So what, what spiritually have you discovered for yourself?Andrew: I mean, obviously at that point, I, I, as a kid, I didn't agree with marriage only being between a man and a woman. And then, you know, just the, the history of the priests and the abuse and the, all that. I, I didn't agree with any of that. But even, even, even even Madonna too with Journey and her being Catholic and like a prayer and being the first advocate for l g BT Q, putting in her cd in her tape a condom and to protect se use protection for sex and literature on aids.Like, she was the first one to kind of give me a voice. And I, I felt seen, like [00:28:00] just the fact that I knew that I was gay. I felt like I was gonna get AIDS just because of that simple reason in the eighties and the nineties. But I mean, even that's kind of like part of my spirituality. So for me my husband and I go to non-denominational church.We are part of Unitarian. It's more of a communal thing. And it's more of just because they're accepting of everything. And the, the philosophy is to celebrate love, life human experiences. And it's, it's really lovely. I mean, it's. I ki I, I liked it because it brought me a little ba back to the nostalgia of the good things of going to church when I was Catholic.But I'm, I'm a spiritual person by Mother Nature and the universe. I believe in the law of attraction. I meditate every day. I practice gratitude. I journal, I visualize I consider my dogs my spirituality as well. I have dog, I have three dogs, you know, I have dog therapy [00:29:00] with them daily. I practice kind acts with others.I I'm an earth sign, so I love anything that has to do with the outdoors and just going on hikes and doing yoga. We're gonna do yoga tonight. You know, it's being healthy. We're both vegan, we're both animal lovers. My, my cosmetics is vegan and animal cru tea free as well. So I'm just, I'm a spiritual person as far as just energy, you know what I mean?Like this's just. What I love about being a human being is that I'm so connected with Mother Nature and we're all the same at the end of the day. Like there, it has nothing to do about your color of skin, your orientation, your gender, hus in your bedroom, what you eat, nothing like, we're all literally the same breathing things, elements, you know what I mean?It's looking at like, my veins is just like looking at the roots at a on a tree. [00:30:00] When you're like in a plane and you're looking down as the earth shrinks and you see all the little cracks in the rivers of, of earth, those are the veins of earth. It's all the same thing, you know? And so whatever spirituality is for the individual, if it makes them feel special and, and seen and that's, that's all that matters, whatever gives them that like happiness, that joy, that light.And for me it's, its mother nature. So that's my form of spirituality. De'Vannon: Okay. Look, I love to keep me a good garden in the back. I love eating off the, I love riding horses. You know, when I'm not riding Dick, you know, and everything like that. Exactly. Appreciate I can appreciate the fuck out of that. So, I wanna go back to this rejection of your mother because you know, she's a, you know, she sounds like the embodiment of a drag queen's in a straight woman's body.She supported you until you made it official. There's no goddamn way. She couldn't have already [00:31:00] known mothers. No, the bitch wasn't blind. I mean, I don't mean that insultingly. I mean that You're Andrew: good. You're good. De'Vannon: You know, I'm like, girl, you could see, you could read the tea. Andrew: I mean, I was going to the makeup.Yeah. So I was going through all De'Vannon: that. So, So you felt accepted and she already knew what it was. So it almost like for her, it might have been better if you never would've made it a official by saying the words. Hmm. So for those, for people out there, for queer people, especially Latinx people who have been rejected and there is a lot of rejection of L G B LGBTQ people because of how the Catholic church is, your culture is hella Catholic, you know?Mm-hmm. And so take me, take me back to when that rejection first happened and really give me some words to those feelings. Cause I want you to embody what somebody else is going through right there. I want you to vocalize that. Andrew: Yeah. [00:32:00] And 10th grade, and I, I think I had ditched school that day. I lived in a studio that was on the same property.My parents a lot of Mexicans do this where they build homes inside their homes and other. And it's just like a lot of houses. And so I, I, I was grateful for that cause I had a little bit of privacy, but my mom always had a key of course. And so I remember having my friends over the night before and we're listening to like Morris depe.And it was just kind like that vibe wearing all black, my doc Martins, you know, my black bomber jacket and drinking red wine and thinking we're cool and smoking marble red cigarettes. We were disgusting and clothes, but it was just, that was the thing that we did. And I just remember like waking up like hungover and it was time for school and I'm like, ah, I'm [00:33:00] not feeling it.I'm not gonna go. So I stayed home painted my fingernails and was just kind of like being lazy and just bumming around the house. And then my mom came in and like, just like, and Mexican moms. Can rage and just open the door and slammed and was like yelling, what are you doing in Spanish? Of course,you know, like all that kind of stuff. It was very . And and then she was like, picking up my jacket, picking up the bottles. She's like, what is this stuff? Why are your nails painted? Why are you dressing like this? What are you doing? Like, what are you gay? And that was the first time she had ever ever asked me that.And I finally like, I was so tired of yelling back and forth to like, I remember we were both yelling so much that we had to take a break to just take a, a breather. And then I finally yelled back and I said, yes, I'm [00:34:00] yay. You know, and a part of it felt good to just finally say it and vocalize it and to put it out into the universe, but also like seeing the sadness in her eyes did not feel good.And I just, I saw her like just kind of shrink and just, that made me shrink too. And then she just said, well, I don't support that. You're gonna have to leave you. If you're not gonna go to school, then you need to get outta here. And she left. And so I just remember feeling rejection alone, abandoned. Why am I here causing so much stress to all these people around me?And, you know, the per, the one person that I, that I thought was always gonna be my hero, that I, that supported me is now like, just telling me to get out and that I'm done with you. You're not good enough. Like when she said, De'Vannon: does she mean you no longer can [00:35:00] live here? Or when she's saying, I can't see your face today, what did she mean as a.Andrew: A teenager, I thought I took it as like, you, you don't, you're not gonna live here anymore. Like, if you're gonna live like that, you're not gonna live here. Like, those are the words that I heard. Yeah. That's how it sounds to me. So I, so I said, okay, and I, I did run away. Obviously I had to come back to get my stuff.And again, just going through the lows of the lows, seeing the alcohol, drinking that some more, discovering Tylenol pm, taking some of those. And the combination of it, I was just like, I was just, I was so sad. I was so alone that I didn't think I was able to get over this, like, low. So I just, I decided I wanted to take my own life.You know, I was gonna try and it [00:36:00] didn't work, you know, it didn't work. I woke up the next day. With my wrists, still bloody, but kind of like crusting and trying to heal just disorientated and dizzy from all the wine and the, the pills. And I'm like, all right, well, I guess I'm gonna go to work.I'm sorry to school. I didn't, it didn't work, you know, just put on my bomber jacket, go to school. I'm like, second period, get a call from the school counselor and says, you need to report to your school counselor's office. Get to the office. And they're like, your mom just called and apparently she went into your room and saw all this stuff and is really concerned about you.We need to see your wrist. And so I was hesitant, but obviously ended up showing, and they were like, all right, well you're a minor at this age in Roseville High School, we're not allowed to let you out of our site. We need to report to the center quad area, and we're gonna let you know what [00:37:00] is gonna happen to you then.So I get escorted with the security to the center of quad area. The bell rings and as the bell rings, the gates open up and an ambulance drives in as the ambulance is driving in the doors open and the security is escorting me into the ambulance. All the schoolmates come out running and seeing me getting into this ambulance and girl, I was mortified.I was, I was the most embarrassing moment and just kind of like, that's it. I'm over. I can never get back from this. There's no, there's not gonna be a way to fix this. You know what I mean? It was, it was very heavy, it was very embarrassing and exposing and was rushed off to White Memorial Hospital in Royal Heights, and they pumped my stomach and they stitched up my wrist and.[00:38:00]And yeah, I was admitted to a psych ward as a one 50 minor. It was who continued? Are you okay? Say what? I mean, it was, honestly, it hon, at that point I just surrendered. I, and I just kind of, I gave it to God at that point, you know, and was like, I'm just gonna be reborn. I'm gonna be a child. I'm gonna be infant.I'm gonna just let you guide me. This is where I'm supposed to be now to, to learn and to grow. I, I guess I'm gonna listen to these therapists. So I discovered therapy, which I fell in love with immediately cuz I'm finally being heard. I'm finally having tools and resources to, to help navigate my emotions, my feelings.And then I met that angel That young man that wrote me poems and [00:39:00] talked to me and said, you don't belong here. And told me I was special. And, and I finally like, believed it, you know? And that's, that's when I told you earlier that I made that conscious decision to not go down that route anymore.And I'm, I'm still in therapy to this day. I mean, it's not every week I mean like it used to be, but it definitely saved my life. And I feel that person was an angel. Cause fast forward to later, as I'm going through self-discovery and I'm writing my book and I'm journaling, I'm like, what happened to him?So I tried to research, but obviously through the privacy of hospitals, like they're not allowed to expose any information. But they were like, yeah, you were the only, they said you were the only one there in your room. So what the heck does that mean? You know, like they're saying that I was the only one in my room, but I distinctly remember this.Young man named Miguel telling me, you're, you're, you know, [00:40:00] you don't belong here. You, you need to follow the light. How long was Miguel? De'Vannon: That's crazy. How long was Miguel Andrew: in there with you? I mean, I, I was only in there for two weeks. He had already been there for a month. Mm-hmm. But yeah, I don't remember.We never exchanged numbers. Like So you think, I mean, we had pagers I think at the point, De'Vannon: right? So you think maybe it was, I remember the pager days. Beep, beep, beep, beep. Do you remember Uhhuh, I'm sorry you went through all of this and mental health is a big fucking deal in the queer community because a lot of our issues come from our parents because our parents have their own unresolved issues.The church has told them what to think about their own children. Not, not all mothers and parents are able. Be like, this is my child. I don't even a damn what the church has to say because, you know, our parents have their own issues. And so this is a huge reason why there's a lot of insecurity in our community.It comes from our own households. Now do you think this was son [00:41:00] who was in there with you, perhaps And y'all son, Miguel is just like son, son, Miguel, St. Michael, the Arche angel. Andrew: Yes, yes, yes. I don't know. I mean, I don't know. I, it was definitely an angel and I, when my mom I, I was born two days after Christmas.I was supposed to be born like on Christmas, but it happened to be two days after. And she said cuz she was really into Like astrology. And she used to watch Walter Melo, I dunno if you know Walter Melo, who it was like the famous like tarot card reader in in the Latino community. It was like the thing that we watch religiously every Sunday, like after the, the, no, it was Walter.And he would tell you like, capric, Corno, tourist, blah, blah, blah. So she, cause of him, she used to tell me, you, when you were born, the sun, the Earth and the Moon and Mercury were line and you were born at 6:05 AM I, they gave [00:42:00] me you, you, they gave you, oh, sorry, let me rephrase this. They gave me you in a red stalking and as you're going in my arms, I just saw a big star on your head and a light on your right side.And I'm just staring at this little gift in this red, like stalking this and I'm holding it. And so she kept telling me that as I was. Growing up, like you have a star, you have a light on your, so I don't know, I, I can't help but go back to that, you know what I mean? Like go back to these little angels, these little whether it's whoever, you know, maybe it's, maybe it's a drag queen that past life, but she's saving me.That's what I like to I feel like we all have some kind of angel to protect, you know, some kind of either light energy, whatever you want to call it, you know, it could be our [00:43:00] past ancestors or ancestors. It could be maybe your past self and your reincarnate. I don't know. But something was there.It was very prevalent. It was, and it was the moment that I changed my mind. Otherwise, I could have gone down that addiction route. I could have gone down, you know, The gang route and like been in the closet and continued to live this straight life because of course I acted like I was straight forever.Because that's what you do when you're in that kinda environment. Otherwise you're gonna get clocked, you know, and jumped and bullied and I was all those things. But yeah, I, I can only say like now being with my husband, his name is Johnny Debut for 13 years. Accepting me for all of me. My femininity, my masculine side.He, yeah, he's just, he's my homie for life and he's the one that's just [00:44:00] I don't know my mean, like reminded me to love myself too. And I'm just very grateful for that. Cause it's been, we've had a journey on our, on our own as well and the good and the bad and but yeah, we're best friends. He is, he is just been The rock for, for everything.And I'm gonna be that right back to him too. For sure. Hey, hey Johnny, De'Vannon: Daniel, whatever you ask me, introduce Savannah and I'm saying Andrew: hello, hello, hello, hello, hello. De'Vannon: Hey Johnny, how will I get to have cocktails with you one day? Yes. So let's lighten this up as we get, we're down like our last couple of minutes here.So we've talked about some darkness, bring some light, and so yeah, we, we get light through darkness and angels are real. You know, I've spoken about how they've appeared to me before, all kinds of places on the side of the street and restaurants, you know, and there's [00:45:00] been times where it's like nobody else even sees this person in here.And I'm not the only one talking to them and everything like that. I turn around sometimes my husband sees them. Now look, y'all, they don't, I've never had them, except for in dreams appear to me in any sort of glorious way. When they appear to me on the street, they're just plain clothes people. And then we talk mm-hmm.Stuff like that. And I turn around and then they're gone. One of my favorite appearances is one time I was out in my yard, this is the last time I ever touched a rake in my life when I was in high school, raking these leaves. I hate yard work. I'm like, can we get a fucking, can we get a fucking maid? Do you see my nails?I'm queer. I shouldn't be doing this. Ugh. So, so I'm raking this fucking leaves and I hate wet ground and, ugh. This, this, this black guy walks down the street and he's just like, Hey, be careful for those poisonous snakes. Now we are in the hood, you know, just in the middle of the city. Oh, we're not out in the country.Why the fuck would there be a snake? He's like, were you careful of those snakes? The next [00:46:00] pool, there was a goddamn damn poisoned snake flopping all around in. They're trying, oh, hell no. I threw that right down. I'm like, I don't, not a snake. I don't give a damn with my dad. I want me to do, ain't no more chores being done in this yard.I looked up that that guy had told me this, like not a split second, and I looked up and he was gone. And I had something like that happen when I was a kid. You know, they'll show up, say whatever. I looked down and I'm like, he, they can't take nobody. Run that damn fast. You know? Or as or as the Hebrew scripture tells us, you know, we've entertained angels at unawares and be careful how you treat strangers.Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm. Absolutely talk about makeup. So y'all, like he said, he has own makeup line. Oh,Andrew: it was a good segue. It was a good segue. Had to do it right. And De'Vannon: every time he cls that fan has a title of his book, AOR Art Arta Moore. Or love is art. Art is Love. Yes. So [00:47:00] his first color palette is, is called Me Corone, which stands for my heart, you know, in Spanish. Mm-hmm. Go ahead and hold it up. So, Ooh yes.It ain't no bunny ram harm in making that. That's what I'm here for. That shit is vibrant. Thank you. You know, every now and then, you know I might beat this face up. You know, I'm gonna have to get your shit. Oh, I would love Andrew: to do your makeup. Yes. Let's make that happen. Oh, don't. I'm gonna De'Vannon: be in LA soon. God.I pray to God the next time I go to Los Angeles, cuz I'm in Louisiana where I live now. I pray to God the next time I go to Los Angeles it's, I'm there to stay. God. Need to go Andrew: home. Wait, I'm actually gonna, I'm actually wait, I, I'm going to Nashville in February. De'Vannon: That's a bit away from Louisiana still. I mean it might be kinda like Yeah, you're right down here by New Orleans and stuff.So whenever you come to Mar are you ready to do you a Mardi Gras carnival? Andrew: We do [00:48:00] love New Orleans. Yes, I do. I got De'Vannon: you hooked up bruh. So, okay y'all, so he bought this show called American Beauty Star and that, that color palette, he just showed up. You know, go ahead and tell everybody like, you know where they can find that.Your website is gonna be in the show notes. I'm gonna put your link tree so people can find you in case you wanna go ahead and vocalize it. You can tell them where they can find that in your book. Andrew: Thank you so much. Yeah, you. Search for the show on Amazon Prime, just type American beauty star, and you can binge watch me on season one.I'm right there working all the magic. That's where I started writing a book as form of therapy. While we were quarantined, I had no access to devices, so I would resort back to my hotel room and just start drawing and went back to my roots. What brings me passion is that's my, my craft. And then I wrote the book.This has been a four year project. The first year was to [00:49:00] write and edit the book. The second year was to design the cover of the book as well as the cover of each chapter. So I took 10 models and painted them from head to toe and turned them into these characters that you see on, on the cover of the book that represent Theia cards.And through the process of making the body makeup is when I realized there was like a lack of pigment. So I went into product development and that's where I chose to create my first palette, which is called . And you can see like one of the actual models wearing the colors and all the artwork inside is in, is in, is the artwork that's infused into the book.So it's all part of the same brand. And then through that, seeing my models get emotional and hot and you know, sweaty, I decided to also make a fan, which is also part of the same collection. And all the artwork from the book is infused onto the fan. And I lastly have a calendar. Which is good [00:50:00]for 2023.So this is the only way you can get the actual print of each card is by having your Amos Art calendar. So you can find everything on amos art.com or love is art artist love.com and that's where you can shop for the palette, the fan, the calendar, and the book as well. You can also go to Amazon and search for the book and just type Andrew Velazquez.And then my website is andrew velazquez.com for my salon portfolio and all the thanks, beauty tutorials, et cetera, De'Vannon: all the things. I love the options. You know, are you a Sagittarius as well? Andrew: US gays like options too. De'Vannon: You right. That's damn true. So, you know, I'm born on December 16th. I need everything.And so, Andrew: oh, nice. We're close. Capric the 27th Capricorn. Yeah. Capricorn. Oh, you can? Yeah, you can come. I have a [00:51:00] Saurus Rising double Capricorn with the Sagittarius Rising and all my besties are Sagittarius as well. You can come De'Vannon: to the Sagittarius Ki Keani. I'm gonna get you in. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So this is, so I looked up a couple of the videos and y'all, I love Andrew's his Instagram and his YouTube channel or Clutch.He has this beautiful avatar, avant garde look that he does on this girl, which is so like on tempo right now with the way of the water just coming out. You know, he has a Marvel inspiration stuff that he does. Th this, he does full body art, not just face, you know, this is head to toe fear shit, bitch.Here. Shout out to Mama Ru Paul right now. So on, on this American Beauty star. We're gonna talk about Lady Gaga, RuPaul, dim Lovato last. It's gonna out. So you're good before that. American Beauty star. So I look this up. So you got this panel of judges, these people on here doing this makeup, Andrew's in charge of the full scale production for this Oh.Show and everything. And then they will [00:52:00] be judged just like you've seen on Project Runway, you know, all the different things. So Andrew comes out, this stone cold bitch is sitting there with like white hair, you know, white outfit. And the, the person that left the review, I, I don't, I, I don't think that was Christie.I think that was the other girl. And and Andrew: so anyway, it was Huda from Huda Beauty, De'Vannon: right? And so I think somebody might have thought she was a little bit too hard, but, you know, I was just leaving everybody's opinions for that. But you know, Andrew's out there on stage and they're like, are like Andrew and then all the stuff, no, every judge's face just has no fucking emotions.You know how they fuck with the contestants and, and they leave them there in silence. For, for what? Felt like an eternity for me. And I wasn't even the one on stage. Yeah. Felt like Andrew. He's all like, oh shit. The look on the look on your face. We loved your look.[00:53:00]Andrew: That's exactly how it was. Oh my God, you did your research. Well, you gonna be so goddamn dramatic right De'Vannon: now. I'm, I'm sitting here in my house, gimme a cup of tea to deal with this stress. And you know, Andrew did well. He made it to the top three. That's a big deal to be there that long with all of that shit going on.And I love the way that you would talk with your co, I guess competition, friends, I don't know exact term on set. Mm-hmm. You know, in the back. But it's almost like you were there like guide, you know, you were giving them advice and everything like that and like keeping them together. It was very nurturing the words you would say to them on this show.Talk to me about your experience on this show before we talk about Gaga. Andrew: Oh, yes. No oh my God. That it feels, what was it like five years ago? Yeah, it was five years ago. I had just wrapped working with [00:54:00] Tyra Banks on America's Next Top model. So, and that was like the third cycle that I had worked with her doing hair and makeup.And, and what I did while I was on Top Model is I absorbed her like a sponge, cuz I knew that this show, American Beauty Star was coming right around the corner. And so the premise of American Beauty Star was to basically be Tyra Banks create a director. So not only did I have to do hair and makeup, but I had to conceptualize and create the runway for the fashion show design, the wardrobe accessorize, design the nail.I also had to choose the music for the, the platform. I had to tell Emily Rose, the International Vogue cover director to photograph and tell the model how to pose. So all these things that I knew were coming up, I knew like, this is, this is what I do like this. I'm, I feel very good about this. I feel very confident going into this.And I'm gonna come in, in, in a [00:55:00] humble approach. And so that was my intent, right? Going into this and always putting the energy exuding out for my mother's health is what I would kind of like meditate every day on my own. Because they said, you're gonna be quarantined for three weeks. Do you have no access to your devices?You have no access to your loved ones. You're, this is a frozen hard environment, which is basically you can't talk, you can't speak unless the cameras are on. And it's a production strategy to conserve your energy for camera type. But it's also. A psyching test to test your patients, your stress levels.And it's so funny because that's where I started developing this little twitch that happens on my arm. It's actually happening right now as we speak. I don't know if you can see it, like the little eye on the, it's switching a little bit, whatever, to that degree. Yeah. And so and I never had that before until [00:56:00] this show, but because we were only allowed to bring paper and my old school like iPod, you shuffle, I would listen to music like Madonna Ray of Light.Obviously, you know, other people that would like made me zen. I came up with Zen Drew, and this is where I started drawing for the book and creating the concept behind of what I wanted to do. I didn't know I had a concept during the time of the the show though. I just knew that I was like, Journaling.This is my form of therapy. And so I, I, I, I listened to the direction from the judges. A Adrian a Lima is the host who I loved, and she's stunningly gorgeous, even more in person, more so in person. Serjan is our mentor whose Beyonce's makeup artist. And, you know because I had been in production on a reality competition show [00:57:00] before, I knew a little bit more, I had a little more insight on kind of what goes behind the scenes.But now I'm the one in front of the camera place on hard ice. So I kind of knew that there were, there was three parts to the, the production In the morning you would come in, dress in the outfit that you were in the last night's outfit that day we had to recreate for continuity, whatever we did on the challenge last night again.Then we would find out, like you saw with the white snow queen, that we were gonna stay or leave. And yes, I was sweating. My back was drenched and my arm was twitching. But my goal was to always listen to the, the, the feedback and put that into the next challenge. Then the second part of the day was your, your kind of like, your interviews and what you see in between they, they call 'em the confessionals.And so that's where oftentimes they would set you up with the producer [00:58:00] and they would ask you questions and I could pick up when they were trying to alter my answer or get something else outta me. And I would say, no, that's, that's not something that I would say. I'm not gonna say that. Don't ask me to say that.And I, I remember asking for a different producer when I didn't, when I was in vibing that, you know, the, this, this isn't coming out through for my best interest. This is coming out for. Airtime or production, and I'm not here for it. Like I wanna be authentic, Andrew and what I came up with, what's called my Zend.So they listened to that and I went, I had another producer, and she really made me feel like safe, made me feel heard, and, and, and I feel it's because of her. She was another angel that I was able to, to be vulnerable and to, and to be just true. And then the last part of the day was the next challenge.And then you're introduced to a new a new ex whatever [00:59:00] project you're gonna come up with. And I, I felt everybody's anxieties, right? I felt everyone's trying to, like some people were trying to be shady. So the what you see is real, you know, some of it, yes, it's beefed up because they want to stir up some drama specifically on America's next time model.But for American Beauty Star I think they were, they would, they would find. People's strengths and weaknesses and then enhanced them by and, you know what's the tar the right word? By instigating stuff and by asking right questions and by like probing. I wasn't here for it. I think they picked up on that.I think that's also why I didn't win. But I think that's why I made it to the finales because they knew like, oh, this guy, he's well put together. He's corporate, he's professional, but I wasn't drama. You know what I mean? And because I sense everyone else's anxieties, I would try to give them positivity and, and give them zen as and just tell [01:00:00] 'em to, Hey, just trust your, in your intuition.Just go with what brings you joy and follow that regardless of what everybody's telling you. Like follow that. And I feel like that's kind of like what helped me stay at towards the end. Although I didn't win in the winning title, I won so many other ways and growth and exposure and experience, I was able to open up a salon after that.And I'm very grateful for it, you know what I mean? Would I do it again? Absolutely. I would bring it on all stars. I will come back on season four and go up against my students, go up against whoever. And I'll win that. I'll win that bitch. I'll take that bitch home. Hell season four all stars. De'Vannon: Take me with you.I can I can supply the underwear. I'm sure y'all need a pit crew for my down under apparel brand. Hey, I can do something. Andrew: Let's go. De'Vannon: Okay. So then, so as you thank you for that breakdown. I love you had this fabulous experience and I just speak more exposure over you and riches, both in this world and in the one to come and in the [01:01:00] unseen realm too.Yes, Andrew: yes, yes. Between De'Vannon: Lady Gaga, RuPaul and Demi Lovato, which one of these can you give us the most dramatic story from, from working? Andrew: I mean, I can, I can talk about all of them briefly. Who did I work with first? It was probably RuPaul. We, Mac Cosmetics was the sponsor brand for season one, and through that sponsorship, David not only provided the cosmetics, they provided artistry support, which was myself and I managed the pro store on North Robertson in Beverly Hills and West Hollywood.So we were like the flagship that all entertainment would approach for. Sponsorship product, artistry help, whatever it was. So I worked on season one and we were in charge of just doing the guest judges. So I did like Michelle Williams from, you know, Destiny's Child. And Ru [01:02:00] Ru is just great.She's just such a big flirt and just you can feel her energy when she comes into the, the room. And this is still season one, so it was very fresh. I was invited to come back for season four this time through an agency and still do the guest judges and the pick crew as well. So we had to oil them up and and then you can see me actually on season four in the background cause they would sometimes have us be in the audience.And this is the one with Sharon Needles. I think who else was. Fifi O'Hara and they're fighting like on the wwf, kinda like wrestling. So you can see me in the back, like yelling. So that's a little behind the scenes. And then Gaga was through Sharon Gold, who was Madonna's hairstylist during the Blonde Ambition tour.And Sharon we're shop with us at Mac frequently to get product, to get her discount. Cause we offer, they offered a pro membership [01:03:00] discount for anybody in the industry. And so she hit us up once and said, Hey, I'm coming in tomorrow. Can you make sure that we have. A little private area. Yeah, absolutely.Yeah. We're gonna need your face charts, your pigments, and some brushes. I have an artist a musician that I'd love to introduce you guys to. She's new. She's up and coming. Okay, great. This is like during MySpace, right? So she was, they kept calling her a MySpace artist. I'm like, all right, cool, whatever.MySpace come in. All good. So here I meet this little tiny brunettes you know, skinny young, like 20 year old. She was like, twinky, right? Her name is Stephanie. And she is like, how do you, what do you do with these space charts? Show me how to use these space charts. I'm doing this music video and I want you to work on the music video.I'm like, okay, cool. Yeah. So I was Sharon's assistant for the music video love game. But again, not knowing who this individual was, I didn't even know her artist's name until we got to the set. And now they're saying, oh, you're working with Lady Gaga? Who's Lady Gaga? What is that? What does that [01:04:00] mean?And literally, In like a matter of two weeks, she was on logo Next, next now award show and overnight she just became this huge sensation and her album just like skyrocketed. And that was it. Like that was the one time consulting with her in the store and then working in the music video. And I will forever take that to my grave cause she's Queen, you know, to all of our LGBTQ community as well.And then Demi was for another big queer moment during the la gay Pride. And I was in charge of the avant garde body makeups. And I was also able to do her like glam that morning for a really don't care music video. So it was a 13 hour day. She's such a hard worker. I remember she just came back from Paris.She, this is when she used to shave the [01:05:00] CI of her hair. She's like, You know, can you clean me up? I didn't bring clippers cause I wasn't aware that I was gonna do like grooming and I, I just was prepared for makeup artistry. So I had to, th this is another fun fact I'm gonna share with your audience. I had to taper and sh and shave, fade the side of her head with lash scissors and a mascara one and just like a cute little blend to make it look tight.And then the rest of the day was turning these dancers into like mannequin avant garde, like avatar makeup. So like blue, pink, gold and black. And it was hot during real life on afloat, during la gay pride in a little pickup truck behind her, touching her up every so often and touching them up. Just exhausting, but, you know, really, really great to work with.And she was very gracious. And this is when she was dating I forget his name. The my Latino, I should [01:06:00] know his name, HETE. But anyhow, it was a, it was a great experience. She was fun. Gaga was fun, RuPaul was fun, and I love them all as artists. I think what they represent as, you know, ex a self-expression and what they do for our community is just, is awesome.So I'm gonna forever take that to my grave. Hell yeah. And De'Vannon: look, I hopefully you get to work with them again. I speak it so. Mm-hmm. So I've
What you'll learn in this episode: Why a growth mindset is the key to making effective change Andrew's tips for beating resistance and making changes stick Why lawyers need to adapt their professional approach to become effective coaches and mentors How to choose the right executive coach What lawyers of all levels can expect to gain from coaching About Andrew Elowitt: Andrew Elowitt JD MBA PCC worked for over twenty years both in law firms and as the head of a corporate legal department before becoming a practice management consultant and professional certified coach. He is the Managing Director of New Actions LLC, a firm that specializes in talent, strategy and leadership development for law firms, businesses, and government agencies. His work focuses on the people side of legal practice: how lawyers manage, lead, thrive, change, and find satisfaction. He is regarded as an expert on the use of coaching and emotional, social and conversational intelligences in leading and managing legal organizations of all sizes. Andrew is a Fellow in the College of Law Practice Management, an International Coach Federation Professional Certified Coach, Vice Chair of the ABA Law Practice Division Publications Board, and founding member of its Lawyer Leadership and Management Board. He is the author of numerous articles and is regularly invited to conduct workshops and retreats for his clients and to present programs to bar associations. Additional Resources: New Actions: www.newactions.com Elowitt's LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/andrewelowitt Transcript: Coaching is a powerful tool that can help lawyers in all stages of their careers become more effective leaders, mentors, and professionals. The legal industry has embraced coaching over the last 10 years, thanks in no small part to the work of Andrew Elowitt, founder of coaching firm New Actions and author of books “The Lawyer's Guide to Professional Coaching: Leadership, Mentoring, and Effectiveness” and “Lawyers as Managers: How to Be a Champion for Your Firm and Employees.” He joined the Law Firm Marketing Catalyst Podcast to talk about how lawyers can face and overcome their resistance to change; why a growth mindset is necessary for lasting transformation; and how lawyers should choose the right coach. Read the episode transcript here. Sharon: Welcome to the Law Firm Marketing Catalyst Podcast. Today, my guest is Andrew Elowitt. Andrew is the managing director and founder of New Actions LLC. His firm provides high-level coaching, practice management consulting and retreat facilitation services to law firms and other professional service firms. He is a former lawyer and corporate executive. He's also an in-demand speaker. He is a very accomplished author who has been on the podcast before with one of this coauthors, Marcia Wasserman. We'll hear all about his journey today. Andrew, welcome to the program. Andrew: It's great to be back, Sharon. Sharon: It's great to have you. Thank you so much. Tell us about your journey. How did you get to where you are now? Andrew: I had been practicing law for 15 years, first in firms and then I went in-house. It wasn't something that hit me suddenly at 15 years. I realized I was a good lawyer and I was well-compensated, but my passion for the law, for legal practice, was ebbing. I wanted to do something more. I wasn't sure what it would be, but I definitely wanted to have a second act. So, I got to that point 15 years in, like I said, and it was a matter of some awfully good luck. My best friend's weekend hiking buddy was a senior organizational development consultant who was putting on learning opportunities for an eclectic mix of people. I had known him socially, and I was introduced to him. I talked about what he was doing with the learning groups. He had a clinical psychologist, a college professor, an educational consultant, and a woman who did film editing and writing, so a lawyer in the mix made it all the more eclectic. Once I started that learning group, I was fascinated. It was like all the lights going on on the Christmas tree in Rockefeller Center. I went, “This is so interesting. I want to do this.” Then I started to train, and I probably read more in those first two or three years that I was training with my mentor than I had practicing law in the prior 10 years. Then I made the transition into doing organizational development consulting. We were working with a lot of tech companies in Silicon Valley. Over time, slowly, I started to pick up more professional services firm clients, lawyers, accountants. A lot of my friends from the legal world were now in managerial positions. We'd get together and they'd say, “Andrew, we're having this problem,” and I'd give them advice. After about six months, they said, “You know what? We'll pay to have you go into the firms and help us with these things.” I went, “Oh my gosh, there's a niche here.” So, I started working with lawyers then. At that time, which was the early 2000s, coaching in the legal world was not well understood. People thought I was a life coach. They had all kinds of misgivings, and I had to overcome that initially in making the transition. At this point, coaching is very well known and respected and utilized, not fully utilized, but utilized in the legal profession. Sharon: Do you think that's more in California? When I talk to people in other areas of the country, they don't really know what coaching is. They're going, “Coaching, what's that?” Andrew: Yeah, occasionally I get that. I don't think there's a big geographic difference anymore. Maybe on the coasts there's more understanding of coaching. The legal community has followed the business community. The business community was a much earlier adapter and user of coaching. You certainly saw that in the tech companies. One of the reasons why was because you had a lot of younger, relatively inexperienced managers coming in, and they needed help. Brilliant people, great subject matter experts, but they didn't know how to manage, especially managing people. That's one of the reasons why there was a lot of traction for coaching in tech centers, both on the west coast and the east coast. Law has followed that, and I think it's a matter of what the business models are for businesses versus professional services firms. As you know, partners or senior attorneys have their producer/manager dilemma. They're the ones that are on the factory floor grinding out the equipment or the product. At the same time, they need to manage, but do they have the time? There's a built-in tension there. Do I step away from billable hours to do the work? Do I step away from client development to do the managerial piece? It's a built-in dilemma. You don't see that on the business side. On the business side, with the executives I work with, which is anywhere from 40% to 60% of my practice, they are managers. Their job is to manage the people that report to them and to collaborate with the people in their organizations. It's different than in law firms. Sharon: Law firms are their own animal. One of the ways is exactly what you're talking about. You have tension. What do you tell people who come and say, “I love the business side and I like client development, but I don't like the law. I don't like to write briefs. I don't like to read them. What can I do?” Andrew: First of all, that resonates with me because that was my feeling about the law. I know I was a good technician, but I much rather would have been negotiating. I think that's one of the reasons why I was happy going in-house. I got to be the client, and I was more involved in the business affairs of my organization. For those people, I think it's great that they have wider interests. The people who like client development, they're the future rainmakers in a firm. The people who like doing the managerial piece are really important. Now, there's a problem because they may be very good at it, but firms are still slow in rewarding and incentivizing people to take on those managerial roles. One thing we've seen in big law, the largest law firms in North America and around the world, is the emergence of professional managers. People that may or may not be lawyers are now doing the administration and the leading of firms. There can be challenges to that. In a lot of jurisdictions, you can't have nonlawyers, people that are not certified as lawyers, being equity holders in a law firm. That makes the compensation and incentivizing issue a lot more complicated, but I think we'll see more of a continuation in that direction. It's great to have people in firms that are interested, passionate, experienced and competent in management. It makes a big difference in the bottom line. Sharon: I had forgotten how it's become so professionalized on the business side in many ways. I can't remember; it'll come to me later. I was trying to remember when I was at Arthur Andersen. There was such a big dichotomy between fee earners, non-revenue generators and revenue generators. I always felt like, “What are you talking about? We bring in this much.” Anyway, you said you were doing training in organizational development or coaching. Andrew: It started out with organizational development. That was the focus of our learning group. It was great for me. I was with people more senior than I in terms of work experience, not necessarily in terms of age. We started with a couple of learning groups in Los Angeles. Then my mentor, Don Rossmoore, got invited to Xerox's Palo Alto Research Center, PARC, to lead learning groups there, so we had other professionals and executive coaches that were in-house for Xerox. We had people from Apple, Hewlett-Packard, Sun. It was the whole list of tech companies. This is back in the 1990s. It fast-tracked me to have all those people available to learn from. Our last learning groups morphed into a consulting group that was a bit informal. Very different from law firms, where everything is very structured. This was, “Do you have the availability? O.K., we'll work together on this engagement.” I learned a tremendous amount there. We were usually dealing with larger issues throughout an organization. What I found in doing that was I loved the strategic part, the systems part of that, but it really comes down to implementation. When it comes down to implementing the changes we're recommending, that goes back to the individual. Often the individual executives and managers were having difficulty implementing the changes they knew they needed to make, including changes in the organization, changes in the team they were leading, or changes in themselves. It's the individual. That's where I really began the transition into coaching. I didn't think I was very good at it initially. I still feel that way. I had to unlearn a lot of qualities and approaches that made me a good lawyer, but not necessarily a good coach. For example, as a lawyer, you need to be prescriptive and directed. You're there to provide a solution. A client comes to you with a problem, then, “O.K., well, this is what you should do.” That doesn't necessarily work well when you're coaching. It's better to work more collaboratively with your coach-ee to help them come to their ideas and figure out what they need to do. I had to stop myself. I had to restrain myself from jumping to solutions and saying “Here's the roadmap. Here are steps one through five. Do them.” That was me at the beginning. I had to sit on my hands and zip my mouth and go, “I have some ideas about this, but I'd like to hear from you first. What do you think would be a good approach?” It's bringing them more into the picture. That was one of the biggest and hardest changes for me, but I found I really liked working with executives. There's something about working with people one-on-one I found very satisfying, far more satisfying than working with people one-on-one in the legal capacity. I went in that direction with executives and lawyers and a few other service professionals from time to time, but I wouldn't identify myself in those positions. That's pretty much the journey that I took. Sharon: Do you find that you have to put on a different hat when you're working with a lawyer, and then another hat when you're working with an executive? Andrew: That's a great question. It depends on the lawyer and the executive. Sometimes I have to put on a different hat with the same person from one session to the next depending on where they're at. With lawyers, Sharon, it's usually a matter of the issues we're dealing with. On the executive side, it's pretty much pure management and leadership skills. Lately with the pandemic, resilience and finding a healthy work/life integration are huge, huge issues. For the last two or three years, that has been a theme in almost all of the coaching I've done. On the legal side, it's different. It's not pure management and leadership. At the younger levels of an attorney's career, we're more often focused on issues of productivity, time management, work-flow management. They are on the receiving end of delegation and feedback, so a lot of it is helping them learn how to receive delegation and feedback and how to help them make the people giving them the feedback and delegation even better. It's a sweeping generalization, but I think it's true that lawyers don't have a lot of formal training in managerial skills. Some who came to the law after working in another area may have that. Some who took management classes in college or grad school, they may have some familiarity. But basically, when it comes to people management, lawyers don't know a lot. They are replicating the ways they were managed, which means they may be using managerial and leadership approaches that are two generations old, which are not great with millennials and Gen Z. So, a lot of is helping people learn how to manage. Now, I said I started with people at the lower level. As you get higher, then it is learning those managerial skills, delegating, giving feedback. How do you hold the people that work with you accountable? How do you collaborate with other people? As you go further up, it becomes more client-facing, so it's about developing those client relationships. Then we get into business development. I'm not a business development specialist, but I'm very good at helping attorneys that have support for client development within their firm and may even have dedicated client development people. They know what they should be doing, but they're not doing it. It's the classical example of the knowing-doing gap. This is something that's not unique to lawyers. There's something we know we should do, but do we get around to doing it? No. That can be the case with a lot of lawyers when it comes to business development. I'm very good at helping them understand what's holding them back. Typically, it's nothing external; it's nothing in the firm or the environment. It's something in them. We acknowledge what the inner obstacle is and we work past it and through it. I have a good record of getting them into gear and getting them developing clients. Finally, when we get to partner-level, practice area heads and executive committee members, then it's a lot about leadership and management. That's where there's the most similarity to the business side or the executive side of my practice. Sharon: Do you work with people at all different levels, depending on where they are when they contact you or the firm brings you in? How does it work? Andrew: For firms, it's virtually all levels. Large firms will bring me in. I'll work with their professional development or talent development people. Most often, they have a high-potential associate and there may be a couple of things that they're struggling with. As I think most of your listeners will know, it's expensive to find new people and onboard and train them. You don't want to lose that human capital. So, coaching can be very helpful and cost-effective in helping those people overcome the problems they may be having. It may be something like time management. You have an associate who's starting to trend late on their deliverables. It's the work they need to get to partners. It's overly simple to say, “Oh, they need to work harder and faster,” or something like that. It may be an issue—it often is—where they're not doing a good job of pushing back against the people giving them work. There are lot of people all over the world and there are a lot of associates. They're hesitant to say no to a partner when a partner hands them a piece of work. What they end up doing is overloading themselves because they are overly optimistic about what they can achieve in a given amount of time. So, helping them learn how to push back is a way of dealing the time management issue. Sharon: I can see how it would be very hard to say, “I don't have time,” or “No,” to a partner. That must be very, very hard. Andrew: There's a skill and art to it, a lot of finesse. With some partners even more finesse. Sharon: Is there resistance? It seems like there would be. Maybe I have an old image of it, but it seems like there would be people who say, “I don't need coaching,” or “I've failed if I have coaching. Andrew: Happily, there's less and less of that. That sense of failure, I don't run into that much anymore. Usually with younger associates, they may feel like, “I should know this. This is a flaw in me. I'm not doing a good job of this.” Often, they're their most severe critics, so I make it very clear to people I coach that I'm not there to fix them. Seldom am I dealing with somebody who really has a risk of being fired from a firm. It's usually developmental. Usually, they're worth investing in, and the firm is spending money to help them become more productive and a tighter part of the firm. The one thing you did mention is that some people think, “I don't need coaching.” I'll initially talk to a prospective coach-ee—and this works on the executive side or the legal side. I qualify them, which sounds like turning them into objects, but it's coach-speak for talking to them to see if they're coachable. Not all people are. Most are very earnestly interested. They want the help. They're stuck. They don't know what to do, but they know they need to do something. Occasionally, you'll find somebody who points the finger at everybody else. They say, “I'm not the problem. It's their problem, if you could just help them.” That's not going to be a good coach-ee. The other thing you look for is a growth mindset versus a fixed mindset. People with a fixed mindset think, “This is all the intelligence I have, all the social skills I have. What you see is what you get. I'm not going to change. There's not a lot of room, if any room, for improvement.” Why spend time, energy, money on dealing with a person or trying to help a person who is saying, “This is where I am and I'm O.K. to be there”? There's no upside potential. You want people with a growth mindset who are curious, who are saying, “I want to learn how to do this.” It's a challenge. You want people who can say, “I've really messed up doing this. I can tell you about the last three failures I've had.” That level of self-awareness and candor makes for a great coach-ee. Sharon: I'm thinking there are some similarities. Sometimes a partner will say, “I know how to do it. I did it this way. They can learn how to do it this way.” Can that change? They may be resistant, or maybe they're not coachable. What do you think about that? Andrew: There's often a degree of resistance in making changes. There's a reason why we are the way are at a given moment. Often, it's because something has worked well for us in the past, and that's fine. It makes sense to me. It got you to where you are. Why change it? You don't want to take that risk. But that mindset ignores the fact that our world is changing really quickly. Let's use the example of working virtually. There were people that said, “No, I only want to have face-to-face meetings.” This goes for coaches and their coaching sessions as well as clients and people in their firm. But the world changed, and all of a sudden, we got a lot better working virtually. Sometimes you do run into people who are resistant. If you're coaching them, you can start to work with them on resistance. You can say, “I can see why this would work for you. I can see the track record. I'm curious. What do you imagine might happen if you tried doing this differently?” I will lay out a scenario of what different would look like. When you start to engage them in that conversation, that's where you listen and hear what their fears are, what their expectations are, why their fears may be justified. Often, they're not. They're thinking something horrible will happen, and you can say, “There is that risk, but here's the opportunity. What do you think?” So, you can subtly, gently shift them. Sharon: It sounds like you have opened up people who were closed when you walked in. Andrew: Yes, all the time. Sharon: I know you went to the Institute of Management Coaching. Andrew: No, my training didn't include IMC. In terms of management training, I did get my MBA from Marshall School of Business at USC. The learning group supplemented a lot of that. A lot of it was self-study, but I also took workshops and got certified in Essential Facilitation. That was something I found extraordinarily helpful and is a big part of the work I do. There was also action science, which is, again, organizational development oriented. It helped me to understand the dynamics of organizations. The other thing in terms of training was my coaching training. One thing about coaching that is very different from lawyering is how you become a lawyer. Typically, you're doing your undergraduate work; you're going to law school; you have to take the bar exam. There are a lot of steps, a lot of certifications, that help with quality control. On the complete other side of the picture, we have coaching. You want to be a coach? Go to your stationery store or big office supply place, get cards printed up that say “coach,” and you're a coach. There's very little in the way of, at least, governmental oversight. The last I checked, which was a few years ago, I think the only state that said anything about coaching in their laws was Colorado. It said that coaching is not considered a mental health profession, so it was excluding coaching. Nothing about what you have to do to be a coach. So, it's incumbent upon coaches to get training. There are a few organizations that sanction training and offer certification. I'm an International Coach Federation Professional Certified Coach. Boy, is that a mouthful! ICF is probably the leading and most well-known organization for certifying coaches. It's not the only one anymore, but it is an effort to raise the standards of the profession and to make sure that people who are using coaches get somebody who knows what they're doing. Sharon: Did you have to take some training and go through at least one class? Or could you just send in your money? Andrew: That's a great question. There are some organizations where basically you're paying to be on an online list of certified coaches in the area. That exists. I shake my head in dismay about that. As far as I see it, you have to go through an approved training program. Mine was Newfield Network. It was a nine-month program. I think we met three times for three or four days in person. There was a lot of virtual work, albeit this was so long ago that it was by telephone in between. It was rigorous. There are several good coaching programs. ICF approves them. They have lists of them. What we're seeing more of, both on the executive side and in law firms, is that they want people that are certified coaches. Certification of a coach doesn't necessarily mean they're the right coach for you or they're a great coach, but it does mean they've taken it seriously enough that they put time and effort into it. They know what they should be doing. Hopefully, they're also doing it. Sharon: You've been a lawyer and an executive, but being a lawyer, I can see how that gives you so much of an advantage. I'm thinking about how many times we've had to write a press release and weren't exactly sure—we did know, but we're not lawyers. It gives you an advantage. Andrew: Yeah, it does help. Especially in the past, it helped a great deal. If you look at studies of lawyer personalities versus the general population, lawyers typically are slower to trust other people. It makes sense. It's not a bad quality to have considering how we need to protect our clients' interests. But I found that lawyers and administrators in law firms are very happy that I have a legal background. There was this one moment relatively early in my career where I was sitting across a managing partner's desk. He was starting to explain to me realization rates, and I held up my hand and said, “It's O.K.” He stopped and went, “Oh, that's right. You've practiced.” His shoulders sank down a couple of inches, and he sat back in his chair and said, “That's so nice that I don't have to go through all that explanation.” Understanding the context of what goes on in a law firm helps a tremendous amount. So, that is good. With that said, not everybody has to have a legal background. But I think some of the most effective coaches I know do have that background. Sharon: I can see how that would make you very effective, especially being on the other side of the desk in any capacity. If you were a lawyer at one point, you know about doing the work and getting the work. There's a difference there. I love the name of your firm, New Actions. That's what all of this is about, right? Andrew: You nailed it, Sharon. Especially when I started the firm, there was, like I said, a limited understanding of what coaching was about. Coaching can be these wonderful dialogues and interesting conversations you have with a coach-ee. What you want to do is get results—at least, that's my philosophy—and the results are helping people make changes. Where they are doing is not satisfactory for some reason. They may be unclear about a direction. They may need new skills. They may have difficultly working with people in the system of their organization or getting past that knowing-doing gap we talked about. It could be all those things, but people have to start taking new actions to get new results, better results. That's where the name came from. Sharon: Do you think results last? Maybe they try the new actions once or twice and say, “Oh, that's different,” but then they forget. Maybe I'm personalizing it. I'm thinking you forget. Andrew: Yeah, as I said earlier, there's a reason why people do the things the way they do. It's easy for people to revert back. That's one of the problems we find with training in a business or a professional firm environment. I'm sure you experienced that in doing trainings with lawyers and seeing they've learned all this new stuff. They'll do it for a couple of months, but without reinforcement, people do start to revert back to old behaviors. The six-month mark is my ballpark estimate. I liken it to having taken a foreign language in high school. You don't take it in college. You don't go to that foreign country. You don't use the language. You lose it. It certainly happened with me. That is a problem. The difference with coaching is there is a reinforcement. Sometimes we do spot coaching or laser coaching. It may be three sessions. When it's really short, we're probably dealing with a specific issue or problem, but most executive coaching goes for six months. That's our target area. Often, it may extend a little bit longer than that. In the first part of the coaching, you're understanding the person, why they're doing what they're doing. Then you move into what they could be doing differently. In the middle third—and this is very rough as to the time—they're practicing the new skills, the new behaviors. They're understanding what works for them and what doesn't. The last third is really more practice. It's integrating those skills so they become second nature, almost automatic. That's where what you learn in coaching can become sticky, if I can use that term. After you finish coaching, it's going to stick with you. I was just thinking of this while on LinkedIn. A former coach-ee of mine posted that he got a promotion, and I sent him a congratulations. I got back a comment saying, “Thank you so much for your coaching. I'm still quoting you.” I coached him about four years ago. That was the kind of gratification I was talking about earlier, the difference between being a lawyer and being a coach. I don't remember what I said or what he's quoting, but it stuck with him. He's using it, and he's in a global world now. That made me very happy. I had a big smile for the rest of that day. Sharon: As a lawyer, when should I consider getting a coach? What would I be dealing with? What should I look for? Andrew: O.K., two different questions. Often, the lawyers I'm working with, their firms have contacted me or they've been instrumental. With that said, one positive trend I've seen is that younger lawyers are saying, “I would like a coach. I need a coach.” Lately a lot of them are saying, “I'm overwhelmed. I'm stressed. I have too much work for my ability to handle it. I need to get better organized.” They're initiating that. The first step for a lawyer at any stage of their career is that you're dissatisfied with the way things are. You may have a good idea of where that's coming from. You may sense, “I want to stop doing whatever I'm doing now,” but knowing what you want to stop doing is different from knowing what you need to be doing differently. The analogy or metaphor I use is think back to being on the playground. We had monkey bars, I think they were called. Those were the horizontal bars that went across. You grab one and then you swing to the next one. What you learned early on as a kid was that if you don't have some forward momentum, you get stuck. Then you would end up letting go and dropping to the ground. In making changes, you have to be able to release the hand that's on the back bar. Sometimes in coaching, it's unlearning what you were doing. If an attorney finds themselves in that position, that's where coaching might help. It's not a panacea. It's not perfect for everybody. I'm a good coach, but I'm not the right coach for absolutely everybody. Rapport is very important. Fit is a very important thing. Typically, when I work with somebody, I qualify them and they're qualifying me. Do they want to work with me? It's important that you feel a degree of comfort with your coach. As I've gone on, I think you can be too comfortable with a coach. You want a coach who can challenge you and be honest with you and be able to say, “No, I'm not saying this,” or “No, I don't think is working for you,” or “Hey, it sounds like there's an internal contradiction in what you're saying to me.” A lot of coaching is helping people get past their blind spots. We all have blind spots. That's not a failure. I think it's wired into us. Having another person there, especially an experienced person who can help us see what those blind spots are once you recognize you have them, that opens up a lot of possibilities for taking new actions. Sharon: You mentioned in some writings that you've helped people with difficult conversations. There are a lot of difficult conversations. Can you give us some examples in law? Andrew: There are two conversations that come to mind. One I alluded to earlier, which is pushing back on partners. Just recently I co-presented at a professional development consortium summer conference. It was a program on helping passive and timid associates learn to push back and manage up. For all the talk about law firms being flat organizations—and it's true; they do have fewer layers than a lot of business organizations—they're still pretty hierarchical. Younger attorneys can be overly deferential and very uncomfortable in saying no or pushing back. It can be a lot of different things. I don't have the bandwidth to handle work, like I mentioned earlier. How do you say that? This can especially be a problem if you have one associate who's getting work from multiple partners. Then it's like, “Well, I'd like to do your work, but I'm slammed.” That can be a difficult conversation for an associate. In helping them, one learns that they need to do that and it's O.K. for them to do that. Actually, if they're just a passive person who's not providing that information to the people who are giving them work, they're harming the firm, harming clients potentially, and definitely harming themselves. That is something that's come up a lot lately, at least enough that the presentation we did this summer was very well received and attended. It's something that professional development managers and directors in big law are hearing from their associates. That's one area. The second difficult conversation is around feedback. This is difficult in a way because it's not done enough. Often, in the rush of doing tasks and taking care of client matters, lawyers don't hit the pause button and spend time with the people who report to them and give them feedback on how they did. I remember this when I was a lawyer. You would finish a transaction. Rarely did we have the time to do a debrief. What worked well? What didn't? “This was great what you did. It really moved us forward. This is what you could have done differently that would have helped. Next time, maybe you can do it.” Feedback conversations are often missing. The other thing in feedback conversations is that they can be very top-down and done with a lack of curiosity about what was going on with the associate. Those conversations can take a more collaborative tone, become more of a dialogue, be less about the problem. “Here's the problem that came up on this case. We were slow in responding to every filing the opposition brought to us. Let's get curious about why that happened. What can we, not just associates, but all of us as a team do differently?” Those sorts of conversations. The hardest ones, Sharon, are obviously the conversations between partners in terms of strategy, direction, and compensation. Those are given to be difficult, and I do get pulled in to help. I'm a facilitator in those. I don't have a dog in the fight. I'm just trying to help people understand one another's perspective. What facts they're looking at, what their rationale is based on, trying to change it from a legal argument with pros, cons and who's going to win to more, “Let's look at the whole business of the law firm. Let's see what's good short-term and long-term for all of us, not just part of us.” Sharon: Each of these are very interesting scenarios. I give you credit for even being able to endure them, especially the first one. Covid probably changed this, but I do remember a partner saying, “What do they think evenings and weekends are for?” I always think of how partners would say, “This guy didn't make it in terms of client development. It was clear they weren't going to become a partner. I coached them out.” I always think about, “What did you say? How did you do that? Andrew: I'm not sure what coaching somebody out necessarily means. Let's stop here and think about lawyers as coaches. This is one of the things in my first book that I went into in some detail in one of the chapters. The skills for being a good lawyer, when you line them up against being a good coach, there's not a lot of overlap. Lawyers, to be good managers and leaders, they need to take off their lawyer hat at times. If they're coaching, which is a very potent, effective way of managing your people, you have to not approach it as lawyers. For an example, as lawyers, we often ask closed-ended questions. We're getting to the facts. In coaching, open-ended questions are much better. You want to see where the conversation is going to go. You want to learn more about what's going on with the other person. In coaching, you also have to be listening very attentively, not thinking about, “What am I going to say in response to this?” Again, I'm going back to one of the shifts I had to make when I made the transition. As a lawyer, I'm thinking, “This is what I'm hearing from opposition. Now, how am I going to counter that argument? What am I going to say next? How do I want to navigate this conversation?” It's more oppositional in that way. You really do have to take off the lawyer hat at times to be effective. Sharon: Your first book, “Lawyers as Managers,” talks about that. Am I remembering that correctly? Andrew: That's the second book with Marcia Wasserman. The first one was “The Lawyer's Guide to Professional Coaching: Leadership, Mentoring, and Effectiveness.” That was, I think, back in 2012. It's available now. I think you can find used copies on Amazon. The ABA still has it as an e-book. Coaching in the last 10 years has certainly changed within law firms. At the time it was written, it was to help lawyers and firm administrators understand the potential of coaching. I'm happy to say I think that potential is increasingly realized. I wouldn't say my book is responsible for that solely. Absolutely not, but it was one piece that helped. In “Lawyers as Managers,” Marcia and I look at the role that lawyers need to take as people managers. Lawyers are generally good managers when it comes to technical aspects. You give a lawyer a spreadsheet, they're probably pretty good at dealing with it. Things like budgets. When you come to the more interpersonal stuff, like client development, lawyers aren't as good. When it comes to people management, there really was a lack of understanding. Marcia originated the idea. We were at a meeting, and she said, “I'm looking for some materials on leadership and management for lawyers. Do you have any?” I said, “I have a few articles I've written for bar associations, but most of the stuff out there is general management and leadership. It's tailored for the executive committee, the business community.” A couple of months later, we had the same conversation. I said, “Marcia, we're going to have to write the book,” and she agreed. Little did she know what she was getting herself into. That, I will say, is the definitive book on people management for lawyers. Sharon: To end, can you tell us about one of the difficult conversations you've had? I don't know how many times I've stopped myself and just said, “I can't do it,” or “I'll go around it.” Andrew: I'll speak in general terms. Again, I'm going back to when I was first making the transition to coaching. I found a great deal of difficulty in having uncomfortable conversations where I had to deliver bad news. I had to tell somebody what they were doing was not working at all. It wasn't even neutral. It was really harming them and other people. In short, they were really messing up. I was very gentle. I was bypassing. I was softening, diluting, sugar-coating messages that needed to be heard. I realized that I was playing nice. I didn't want to upset the other person. I didn't want to feel my own upset in doing this, so I wasn't providing value and the proof that they were making the changes they needed to make. This was maybe in my first two or three years of coaching, and I started to realize this isn't good. I was stuck and working with my coach at that time. I realized I had to let go of my personal discomfort if I was going to be more helpful to my clients, and I started to make the change. Now, I am honest. Sometimes people will say, “Can you predict or guarantee any results?” and I go, “No, absolutely not. Coaching at heart is a partnership. We're working together. I can't fix you. I can't wave a magic wand. It's on both of us. I'm here to help you, but just like I can't wear your clothes, I can't do everything for you. We're going to work together.” I do make three promises. One, I listen. I listen very attentively to what my coach-ees say and what they're not saying. The second thing is I am honest. I am very honest. I will not hold back in terms of what I'm hearing or the impact it's having on me. If a coach-ee is saying something and I'm not believing them, I'll say that. I need to. If I think something is B.S., it's the same thing. If I think they're fooling themselves, same thing. There are times where I have to deliver tough feedback. The third promise is I'm compassionate. I don't beat people up in the process. I won't sugar-coat, dilute, or bypass. I deliver the message, but I understand they have feelings. In giving them this feedback, it may affect their emotions and their own identity as a person and a professional. I'm aware of it and sensitive to that, but I still get the message across. I figure that in the first two or three years of my coaching, I was sugar-coating. For the last 22 years, I think I have a good record of being straight with people and getting results. Sharon: Andrew, I'm sure you do get results. Thank you so much for being with us today. Andrew: It's been a pleasure. I've enjoyed it immensely. Thank you, Sharon.
After Dark with Hosts Rob & Andrew – For the past two years, the left has had free range with their woke ideology on Twitter. They were successful in canceling out anyone who dared think differently. However, now their narrative is being challenged. Thanks to the purchase of Twitter by Elon Musk, who promises to restore free speech and expose...
After Dark with Hosts Rob & Andrew – For the past two years, the left has had free range with their woke ideology on Twitter. They were successful in canceling out anyone who dared think differently. However, now their narrative is being challenged. Thanks to the purchase of Twitter by Elon Musk, who promises to restore free speech and expose...
Andrew Ryder is a writer and entrepreneur who is reimagining content creation for online educators so they can highlight their uniqueness and build relationships with their audiences. Andrew's work has been recognized by Entrepreneur Magazine for demonstrating leadership in business. https://www.andrewbryder.com (https://www.andrewbryder.com) www.marlanasemenza.com Audio : Ariza Music Productions Marlana: Andrew Ryder is a writer and entrepreneur who is reimagining content creation for online educators so that they can highlight their uniqueness and build relationships with their audiences. Welcome, Andrew. Andrew: Hey, Marlana, thanks so much for having me. Marlana: So that's really the key, isn't it about building relationships with our audience, because I know if we are entrepreneurs, and we are creating content, it's really marketing at its core. And so in the mix there, we have to come up with ideas and create content that people actually want to consume, and still promote ourselves because we are a business well, in a way without feeling icky. So the question is, I'm going to hit you with it all at once. How do we do it? Is it different things or is it all kind of woven into the same thing? Andrew: For me, it's all woven into the same thing. And perhaps the place to start is in defining what content is, a lot of people think that it's, the first thing that comes to mind would be your social media, or your blog, or maybe even your email list. I also include any paid content, you create courses, coaching, it's really any way that you're communicating with your customer, or your audience or with people who you want to be in your audience, it's going to be the stories that you tell, it's going to be the analogies that you use at any scale, right? If you're doing a social media post, you want to use some kind of analogy or story to teach a lesson, right? But you can still use those same analogies and stories to make a breakthrough in a one on one call with a private client. So everything that you do even down to the color schemes and the graphics and the way that you present your website is content that your audience or your prospective audience is consuming, right? They're going to your website, they're looking at the services, you provide the things that you do, the language that you use, and comparing that to a competitor or to a software solution that claims to solve their problems, right. And so we touched on the idea of creating content that builds relationships. At the end of the day, that's what it comes down to is your prospects, your customers looking at all of these different potential solutions. And they're gonna go with whatever the person who they trust, the most says to do. So if they just came across you, they don't really know anything about you. They've probably been burned in the past, they've made mistakes, they've bought things that aren't what they seem to be, they've gotten ripped off, you know, everybody's gotten ripped off by sleazy online marketer. That's just the reality of the market that we're in today. So what if you build trust with them through your content, and you say, hey, you know, I know you've gone through all these problems, you've had all these issues. Here's what worked for me. I, you know, overcame this, personally, I had all these issues, I figured out how to solve it, and I want to share that with you. If they trust you, they're going to go with your recommendation, even if it's more expensive, even if it's harder, they're gonna go with what you recommend to them, rather than going with something that they don't trust or they don't fully understand. there's really a big there's an immense value in creating trust in your marketing. And I think it's becoming a necessity in the climate that we're in. But I think where people get caught up is content creation is such an interesting aspect of what we do in business. Because if you're...
The wait is over! In today's episode I chat with Andrew Warner: Podcast Host of Mixergy about how to overcome social awkwardness, podcast monetization strategies, his book Stop Asking Questions and more. Some key takeaways shared by Andrew Some key takeaways from the episode with Andrew: ✅For guest outreach = capitalize on motivated moments ✅Podcasting = power to ask people what are your problem ✅Obsess over the conversation ✅Approach podcast guest list from a talent based approach Connect with Andrew on the below platforms: Link here to Stop Asking Questions: https://www.amazon.com/Stop-Asking-Questions-High-Impact-Interviews-ebook/dp/B09HRJ4SMX You can check out Mixergy here: https://mixergy.com/ Connect with Andrew: Andrew Warner on all social media platforms Connect with the host Roohi Kazi on the below platforms: Instagram-roohik2 LinkedIn: Roohi Kazi Twitter: KaziRoohi Visit this link for more listening options/platforms for the Business Podcast by Roohi, and next step groups: https://bop.me/roohikaz Business Podcast by Roohi website: https://6thimbles.wixsite.com/bizpodroohi Subscribe to the Business Podcast by Roohi newsletter here: https://businesspodcastbyroohi.substack.com/
I burst into the Zoom with Andrew Janjigian—a writer and the baker behind the newsletter Wordloaf—as though he were an old friend, telling him about my drama with the dentist that was happening that day and explaining precisely how much I was already sweating despite the early hour of our interview. There are some people whose energy, even virtually, I just like and how I express this like is, frankly, by extravagantly complaining in the hopes of amusing the other person. This is all to say: Andrew is very smart and cool, and I was excited to talk to him.He has done so many things in his life, and it is all wildly impressive. He’s worked as an organic chemist, got a master’s in biology with a focus on fungi, and then ended up at America’s Test Kitchen, where he was the resident bread expert. That led, eventually, to Wordloaf, where he makes sourdough approachable. We discussed it all. Listen above, or read below.Alicia: Hi, Andrew, how are you?Andrew: I am very well. How are you?Alicia: I'm good. Thank you so much for being here.Andrew: Sure. It's great to be here.Alicia: Can you tell me about where you grew up and what you ate?Andrew: Sure. Ok. So, I grew up in a Boston suburb. And I live in Cambridge now, so basically in Boston. And what I ate was—I come from a big Armenian family, and Armenians are pretty serious about their food and their cooking. A gathering of any two or more Armenians is basically an excuse for a feast. And holidays and parties are sort of studies in excess. So there was a lot of food and a lot of cooking and recipes between my mother and my grandparents and my aunts and uncles. And so, I was exposed to kind of people who love to cook pretty early on. And beyond the Armenian stuff, my mother is a very good cook. And she was pretty adventurous, sort of, as interested in experimentation and research as anyone, and I think that's where I started having the same sort of tendencies. I grew up in the era where it was sort of where cooking shows were all on PBS, and Julia Child, if you didn't know how to cook and all those sorts of things. It was a time when food culture was just starting to become mainstream. And my mother was a part of that. I think that kind of sums it up. Boston was not particularly interesting in terms of food at the time. It's definitely improved since then.Alicia: [Laughs.] How has it improved? What's changed in Boston?Andrew: Well, I think it's mostly that the culture has grown to support the presence of just more interesting restaurants. I mean, I'm sure there were plenty of restaurants in, within cultural enclaves. But when I was growing up, you didn't know about them. There probably were fewer then, simply because there wasn't the support. But I think Boston is kind of a provincial place, or has been. And I think people are finally waking up to the, sort of the importance of foods from other cultures. And so, those restaurants are finally getting the due that they deserve. And so, it's definitely better. I mean, I lived in New York for a long time. And so I still kind of gripe about how much better it could be. [Laughter.]Alicia: Well, you've explained your career trajectory to me before when I've interviewed you. But can you explain how you ended up in food?Andrew: Sure. Yeah. I mean, I started out in it, and then came back to it. But the whole trajectory is really kind of convoluted. And I'm sort of somebody who has always had a lot of interests, and I kind of never do anything halfway. And so that sort of leads me to follow paths far away from one thing and come back to them. So I started out working in restaurants during—a little bit in high school, but in college in New York City as a way to have pocket money to pay the bills. And then in summers, where I was paying my own rent and things like that. I was a waiter working front of the house in a couple places. There was a chef at one particular restaurant who sort of took a liking to me and understood my interest in cooking. And he said, ‘Would you be interested in working in the kitchen?’ And he let me, kind of, with no—without real proof that I could do anything, to work garde manger. It was a small restaurant, and so I immediately just jumped in, do it. And then, never went back to waiting tables after that, because it was really much more my thing. And I did that for a few years and eventually worked my way up. For the longest time, I worked at a place in the West Village called the Universal Grill, which was a great place to work. It was a really tiny little restaurant. It was very unique in every way. It prided itself on, or at least thinking itself, as the gayest restaurant in New York City. Or the gayest restaurant in the world, I forget what their tagline was. But it was very a kind of a hub of a lot of gay cultural activity. And it was just a fun place to work, especially since the—while the food, it was important that the food be of a certain caliber, the owners didn't really want to have anything to do with that. So they left the few of us in the kitchen to our own devices to kind of come up with recipes and be creative. And it was small enough that if I was cooking, I was the only person—eventually I worked my way up to sous chef. And if I was there, I was in charge of the menu for the night. And so, it gave me a lot of creativity. That was kind of where I forged my skills. And then, I stayed in restaurants for a little bit longer after that. I moved back to Boston. But I kind of found sort of other interests pushing in against that one. And I eventually decided I want to go back to school. I had studied literature and film in college, and—but was, sort of caught the science bug. And so, I decided that I was going to be—I wanted to be a doctor. It seems kind of crazy now, I thought that. So I go back to school, do pre-med courses. I hadn’t particularly done any of those kinds of classes in college. And I started out in chemistry and found that I had this kind of acuity for it. I found it really interesting. And while I was doing some of these courses, I kind of talked my way into an internship at a pharmaceutical company here in Cambridge. And that internship ended up getting renewed several times. And eventually, it just became a full-time job. And I sort of dropped the pre-med idea in favor of just kind of becoming an organic chemist. Organic chemistry is basically cooking, at least in the practical aspects of it. It's just like cooking. You have a recipe, put a bunch of stuff in a container, you heat it up, and it transforms into something else. And I'd always been good at recipes and good cooking. So it's sort of like it was an easy shift for me.And I did that for 12 years, ’cause it was—working for a corporation, it paid well. And I enjoyed it most of the time. And then while I was there, I caught another bug and this was in the study of mycology and mushrooms. And one of the benefits of working there was that they paid for higher education. And so I was able to get a master's degree—or most of it, I didn't finish it until after I left there. But in biology, it was a study of fungi and in, called mushroom cultivation and foraging and things like that. That's where I was when, just by coincidence. I met somebody, a friend of a partner of my brother-in-law who worked at America's Test Kitchen and shared my crazy resume, my story of how I—what I'd done all these years. And they go, ‘You'd be the perfect candidate for a job at America's Test Kitchen.’ They love people with all those kinds of backgrounds, and also the sort of skill set was perfect for it. So I applied and I took a massive pay cut. And the rest is history. And I was there for about the same, about 11 years, up until last year.Alicia: When did bread become the focus?Andrew: So it's funny because I was thinking about this in—I worked in two bakeries in high school, and it didn't register as a thing that I was at all interested in. And during college, I went—I spent a semester in Paris. I'm sure I ate lots of good bread. But somehow, the idea that I was surrounded by all these amazing bakeries just never, never even occurred to me to think about it. While I was there, I was kind of more interested in spending time in movie theaters and art museums. And so, I didn't come to bread until very late in the game. And the thing that kind of sparked that was probably—this is probably true for many people—was the no-knead bread. I think I made it right after the article came out in ’09. It both kind of sparked the idea that good bread can be had at home, and that actually, maybe, at home, homemade bread is better than you can get, at least from bakeries at the time. Or just the fact that you're pulling it hot from the oven yourself means you're getting it at the peak of its freshness. I quickly was like, ‘Oh, I think I need to dig into this more deeply.’ The fundamentals, the foundation had been there all along. Because the thing that I, that brought me to cooking in the first place when I was a kid, before I started working in restaurants, was pizza; I was obsessed with pizza. I think the first cookbook and kitchen tool I ever personally owned was a pizza pan and a book that my mother gave me as a birthday present. And so, that had been something that all throughout my life since that moment, I've been tinkering with my own recipes. And Cook's Illustrated started in ’93. So that was as I was—during college. I think I subscribed to it from the beginning at that point. And so, I understood that iterative testing process for recipe development. And I did a lot of that with my pizza recipe over the years. And so, I sort of laid the groundwork for where I ended up. After no-knead bread, I started digging into recipes and taking classes. And that was really where I kind of fell hard for it. But yeah, that—Sorry, go on.Alicia: No, no.But yeah, how did you come to your kind of current approach to it? Andrew: Well, so there's a lot of aspects to it. I think that no-knead bread itself is something I came to realize is just, I don't know. It's weird to find something so basic that you didn't realize you could be in love with when you ate it all the time. And maybe it's just because I never had good bread, but I'm sure I did. But there's so many things about it that I love about it it's hard to even narrow it down. I think one of them is simply that bread bakers are kind of, they're really great people. The people who work in the industry and the teachers I've had, they're just really—they're really generous and they're fun to be around. And so when I was a student of it, at the beginning of my time, I just was like, ‘Oh, these are my people’ in a way. And their passion for it kind of quickly became my own. But in terms of the bread itself, and what—one of the many things I love about it, one of them is just like that it's, unlike any other kind of cooking, it's a relationship. It's a dynamic thing that is never complete. You never perfect a technique. Sometimes it works amazingly, and sometimes it doesn't. And you have to kind of constantly bring yourself back to the-I mean, it's a living organism. And if you're not paying close attention to it, if you're not kind of adjusting to it, then it kind of resists being what you want it to be. And so, you need to kind of bring yourself down to its level—up to its level, I should say.I do a lot of overnight recipes, in the fridge overnight or on the counter. Every time I come downstairs from my bedroom and see what's happening in the kitchen, it's a little mini Christmas morning. I'm so excited to see what I, what it's managed to do for me in the interim. So there's just a lot of little joys in it. Yeah.Alicia: And you left your longtime post at America's Test Kitchen to focus on your newsletter as well as freelance. And you recently wrote about competing recipe style guides, which I thought was really interesting, because—for myriad reasons. One, that I develop recipes. Two, that I was a copy editor.How has that transition been for you into working for so many different places plus yourself? Because I know that it is very difficult. [Laughs.]Andrew: Yeah, that's been one of the many challenges of doing this, all solo. As I said, I came to America’s Test Kitchen as a cook and a science person, and not as a journalist. I had no training in journalism. And so, the style guide wasn't even something—I mean, I'm sure I had MLA or whatever in college, but I didn't know that it was a thing. And so when I learned how America's Test Kitchen did their thing, I didn't think, ‘Oh, that's their style guide.’ I just thought that's how everybody does it. And I absorbed that over time. But then after leaving, I realized, ‘Oh, this isn't how everybody is doing it. It’s just one idiosyncratic approach to it. And other places do it differently.’ And that makes sense. Every place has a different kind of needs and a different audience to cater to. But it's maddening to have to—it’s like having to speak a different language every time you do, pick up the phone to speak to somebody else. And it's really hard to adjust. But it is what it is. I wish we could have like an International Congress of Recipe’s style guides and just kind of come up with one thing. Yeah. Alicia: No, it's funny, because I wrote about salt today and how I'm going to try and not use Diamond Crystal anymore. It was so funny.Andrew: The Cargill thing?Alicia: The Cargill thing [laughs], where I found out that it's owned by Cargill since 1997. I had like literally no idea. That's never the point of anything anyone's talking about when they're talking about salt and which one to use. It's always about what's accessible and the volume, and it's never—I also want this standard recipe conference, because I want the salt issue to be resolved. Because The L.A. Times is like, ‘Ok, we're only going to use Diamond Crystal.’ And then The Washington Post is like, ‘We're only going to use fine sea salt.’ But how many salts do you expect a regular person to have in their kitchen? I don't know, and I think it needs to be resolved. I'm just really horrified that people have always been like, ‘Diamond Crystal is the best’ and no one's ever said that they're owned by Cargill.Andrew: Yeah, that was news to me until I think you probably retweeted somebody a couple of days ago, and it never occurred to me. I mean, somebody down to make a bespoke salt that had the exact same weight to volume ratio and is as, just as good in terms of the way it sprinkles or whatever? And then we can stop using it. I was a kosher salt, Diamond kosher salt person until maybe that also sort of swayed me in the other direction. But I do think that it's annoying as hell that kosher salt comes in these two different volume to weight ratios. And I think I'm now in the sea salt’s better camp because sea salt is sea salt is sea salt. Alicia: Exactly. Yeah, no, apparently there's a Norwegian kosher salt that is the same as Diamond Crystal. You're not getting a 10-pound, 5-pound box of it. So that's the issue here, is how much—yeah, how much you're getting, how much bang for your buck, which I guess is why Diamond Crystal really owned the game for so long. [Laughs.] And continues to! I don't think I'm going to change the way chefs act. But at least I can let people, more people know that Cargill owns this and to make their own choices now. Andrew: Yeah.Well, the other thing is that's kind of a very niche question, but like the bigger question’s metric versus imperial and weight to volume and baking recipes and that stuff is just maddening. So you asked about my own style and what that was like. I feel like a style guide should always be logical and clear. It should also teach people something. To give people options is to not encourage them to pick one over the other. And so I decided I'm getting rid of volume measurements, because I think it forces people to do something that eventually they'll come to see is easier.Alicia: Right. No, and I agree. I hate volume recipes. I mean, the only thing for me is that, to keep batteries in my scale. [Laughs.] It's remembering whether it's double A or triple A when I go to the store. That's my struggle. But I wanted to ask how you're maintaining creativity and balance between the work you're doing for other people and for your newsletter, because people ask me all the time. And for me, I think it's kind of obvious, most of the time, what's for the newsletter and what isn't. Speaking, again, of the salt piece, I know how I could expand the salt piece and make it really a lot better and 3000 words and a lot more effecting, but I'm not going to do that for my weekly blog. But, yeah, so basically, how do you balance those things that you're doing?Andrew: Well, I think I'm sort of in a similar camp with that. It took me a while to figure out that that was what it was, but I use it as a sort of a scratch pad for whatever's on my mind. And I don't necessarily feel like things need to be kind of resolved when I write about them there. And I think maybe from the outside—I hope this isn't the case—but maybe from the outside, it sort of seems very disjointed. One week, I'll be giving a recipe and the next week, I'll be talking about style guides. And so I hope that when you see the overall arc of things, you can see that I keep circling back to certain themes. But I find it very useful as a kind of idea-generating place. And I'm kind of grateful that people are willing to kind of follow along there. People pay to subscribe, and that seems like an amazing thing that people want to kind of hear me just think out loud.Alicia: Right.Yeah. And I like that aspect of newsletters. I think a lot of people don't really get that. Maybe because they don't do it; they don't understand the value of having to be consistently creative. And that it's not necessarily an ends in itself, but it's just a way of thinking. It's just a practice that you can have. That people will go along with it is really interesting. And have you found a real connection with your audience there?Andrew: For sure. I've found that the fact of their presence in—I mean, I guess one nice thing about having a paid option is that if people are paying, they don't have to comment to show their appreciation for what you're doing.I feel like the one thing that I've wanted to—Well, it's not the only thing, but one of the things I want to develop more of a sense of community. I feel it's probably on me to figure out a way to foster that more. Because there is some of it, but not as much as there perhaps could be, where people are not only commenting and interacting with me but also communicating with one another more. And maybe that's the question of starting open threads or encouraging questions where people get to weigh in. The hardest part, or a hard part, of doing the newsletter and being a full-time freelancer is just finding the time to implement all these different ideas I have for making it better. It's very slow.Alicia: It's really slow. It's very hard. I want to open up to new, have other people contribute. But I have to make sure I'm fully available to do the best editing work and everything like that. I don't know. It's funny how Substack is, say, it’s all like, ‘Independent newsletters are the future, blah, blah, blah.’ It is, in a way, but at the same time, it's not sustainable at all to do without support. It's impossible to grow into the way that you might have a vision for without the support of a team. Andrew: Yeah, definitely. I can see so many places where it could be more than it is, and maybe it will be someday. But part of it's just a question of time. If I didn't have the freelance work, then I might be able to double the amount of stuff I do there. The problem is that I actually enjoy most of the, or nearly all of the freelance work I'm doing are things I'm interested in. So I'm happy to have it. Maybe there just needs to be more days in the week, although working more is not a good idea.Alicia: No, no. Yeah, it's a hard balance. For me, the struggle right now is finishing my book, and then—and also doing a newsletter.Andrew: Yeah, that I couldn't imagine. Although I have a book project that I need to get going on. So, I don’t want to talk about it much. But the idea of trying to juggle that seems impossible.Alicia: It's hard. It's really hard. The newsletter, in a great way, it became my—the bulk of my income. But I didn't know that that was going to happen. Thank God it happened. And then I have to keep it up to write the book, because the advance was so shitty. [Laughs.] And I sold the book before my—literally weeks before my newsletter kind of popped off, I guess, last year? I don't know. So, it's constantly maintaining this balance in this kind of work where you're weighing the pros and cons of literally every small decision. But I remember when I quoted you about flour in a past newsletter, and you talked about ingredient sourcing and flour sourcing, it caused a little bit of controversy in the artisanal flower community. I talked to Roxana Jullapat about this recently while talking about Mother Grains-Andrew: Which I loved.Alicia: Yeah, yeah.And we're all constantly trying to find this balance—or we're all, I think, people who try to care both about accessibility and taste and ecology, and trying to juggle all of these ideas at once. You have to think about what's good for your local ecosystem, and what's also realistic. And so, what are your thoughts on flour and accessibility right now?Andrew: So, yeah, I got kind of yelled at by somebody, for use—[laughs] for using the term ‘fancy flour’ to refer to sort of fresh milled local, regional, flours, which I love and use all the time and, I think are important to—it's an important aspect to the industry to promote.But it's only a piece of the story. There's so many issues with making that kind of thing accessible to everyone. It's very expensive. It's not accessible in terms of, most supermarkets don't carry anything like that. And mail order is definitely possible, but not only does that add to the cost but it adds to the carbon footprint of the thing. I try in the newsletter and elsewhere to encourage people to seek out those kinds of things if they're in their local economy, and to—I think a great deal of my audiences likely can't afford to spend as much as possible on flour, and maybe-So I think the person that wasn't happy with that term was coming from that perspective is—and like, ‘You need to kind of almost force people who can afford to use better products and more sustainable, whatever.’ And so, I think that's a good thing. But I think it's important not to forget that there are people who can't afford that, and some of those people might not be part of my audience, but they—maybe I'm not attracting them, because if I'm kind of limiting myself to boutique ingredients. I kind of want to come at it from both sides. There's another aspect which is kind of related to that, which is that you—the thing about flours, flours that are kind of boutiques, is that each one needs to be—the recipe needs to be developed specifically for that flour. Whereas if you called for a commodity, or sort of a well-known flour, they're consistent across the—people can get King Arthur flour from one side of the country to the other, and it's going to behave the same way no matter where you get it. And so then, all of a sudden, the recipe becomes accessible to more people. And so, it's a challenge, because if you want to encourage those kinds of things, you need to teach people how to use them and how to how to adapt to them, in a way, like to say, ‘I don't know what your flour is going to be like, but here's what to look for and how to adjust if that's the case.’ But still, I mean, it's really important, because I think maybe flour’s one—I think Roxana said this, or maybe she was talking about sugar, but I think they're similar in that it's one of those unexamined monoliths in our food culture that we don't—we just think flour is just the thing you get. You buy some flour. Whatever, it doesn't matter. As opposed to thinking about how huge the industry is and how difficult it would be to dismantle that sort of thing and replace it with something that is more sustainable and equitable. I think we have to start somewhere. And talking about flous that are made from grains that are grown locally—I'm lucky to live in New England, which before it was the heartland, was the breadbasket of America. And so, good grain can be grown here, and more and more is being grown. And so, I have access to really great local flour, but not everyone does. Although I think there's probably opportunities to grow flours that can be adapted for whateverenvironment you live in. I mean, there's some cool flours that grow in the desert, wheats that grow in the desert that are being built into flour. And actually, we might need more of them, because I haven't really delved too deep into it. But they're saying, this year has been really bad for droughts in the Midwest and Canada. I don't know if it's the end, or if it's just a blip and the kinds of things that we're gonna see more and more of over time. So it's a little scary to think, because if we can't grow—I mean, me being able to have, make my bread is important to me. But beyond that, access to something like flour going away is hard to fathom how damaging that would be to our economies and our lives.Alicia: Yeah.No, I think about that a lot, especially because living in Puerto Rico, I can get King Arthur, but I have to go to the special store and I have to pay way more than I would have paid in New York for it. And then it's funny, because I think if I tried to learn how to cook here, every recipe would be a nightmare because of the humidity and the—and so, because I already know how to cook, I'm—I know how to compensate for things. But I just want to see more recipes, I think, written—and I guess I should start doing this—for the gluten-free flours that are more locally produced like the cassava flour and the breadfruit flour and everything, and plantain flour even. Because, as we keep saying here, it's like, ‘Well, soon everyone will know what this is to live in the tropics.’ New York is subtropical now. And so yeah, it's just really interesting to think about and to kind of try to reframe—yeah, I use the local grain thing to question or whatever to think about, yeah, how we might make things in the future that are recognizable to us. Andrew: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's just hard to imagine a world, or it's hard to imagine living in a world where something as fundamental as wheat or, were to go away. It's scary. And I love alternative flours, but you can't get a baguette out of cassava flour.Alicia: Yeah, exactly. Thinking about life without a baguette is kind of depressing. [Laughs.] Yeah. That's what I'm gonna have for breakfast. I have some. Anyway. [Laughs.] Let me enjoy it while I have it. I’m not thinking about that. But through your newsletter, you're also kind of—you're teaching classes on Zoom. And we talked about the different styles of writing recipes. But just to write recipes down in a methodical manner is so difficult for me personally. What is your process for doing that? What tools have maybe helped you do that? How have you found your teaching voice, basically?Andrew: So it's really interesting, because I'm deeply introverted. And so teaching is the farthest—especially in person—but in front of people, Zoom, or in a room full of them. But I actually have come to love it. And I never would have guessed that would be the case. I started teaching baking and cooking because I saw it as an opportunity to get to kind of hang out in spaces that I was just a consumer of where I wanted to—I wanted to be able to go to places like King Arthur and, on their dime instead of mine. And so I was like, ‘Ok, I'm just gonna see if they’ll let me teach something.’ But I quickly realized that actually, I really liked doing it. And so, I do it for its own sake now. It's challenging, but also it's a great tool for figuring out and kind of codifying what I know and what I don't know. If I have to develop it, I often will propose classes for things that I haven't quite finished figuring out but knowing that it'd be an opportunity to get it done. And so, there's something fun about jumping without a net into something like that. And so, in terms of a newsletter and the recipes, I think I've figured out how to teach, or learning how to teach. And in classes, I think I have converted some of that into how to write about it. But I'm still developing that a little bit more early on in the process. I feel I've been cycling through saying things and figuring out the best way to say something. I often talk about the same kinds of the same topics, how to work with a sourdough starter, or how to do techniques like folding and what not. And I'm never quite sure how to pass that along to somebody who, for whom it—they're naive to those concepts. But I've spent a lot of time thinking about that. And I feel like the thing that I think about most in sort of an abstract way is, how do you teach people to think like a baker does? It's not straightforward. I don't know if it's true for every skill, or, but I spend a lot of time thinking about, like, ‘What is it gonna flip the switch in somebody's head when they're doing a technique?’ It's not just straightforward, do this and get that result. It's more like, ‘Think like this, and you'll be able to figure out how to get that result.’ It's one step removed from the process. But I'm still trying to, still trying to get my head around that.Alicia: Well, for you, is cooking a political act?Andrew: Yes, it is. I feel like it's important to keep that in your mind when you're doing it. I think it's such an easy thing to forget that food and cooking have—it's such a fundamental thing. Is breathing a political act? It's almost the same, but—air is important, too. Food is so fundamental that it's just easy to forget that it has so much, so many implications in terms of—the flipside to eating is hunger, and maybe you're satisfying your own hunger but other people don't even have the option to satisfy it. Or equity in terms of who's making our food or who's growing, picking our fruits, and then all the impacts on climate and resources. And so, I feel I try to deliberately keep that in mind. I mean, it's not always there, but I just feel it's important not, never to forget that. It's part of a system that is not great and needs a lot of work. And I think that, especially if you're in the world of food and cooking, you can have an impact, a positive impact in that if you keep it in mind. Alicia: Right. Thank you so much for being here.Andrew: Oh, it was my pleasure. I'm so happy to be here. This is a public episode. Get access to private episodes at www.aliciakennedy.news/subscribe This is a public episode. Get access to private episodes at www.aliciakennedy.news/subscribe
01:27 - Andrew's Superpower: Stern Empathy 03:30 - Setting Work Boundaries * Matrix Organizations * 18F (https://18f.gsa.gov/) * Acknowledging Difficult Situations (i.e. Burnout) * Health Checks * Project Success * Time Tracking * Heart Connection / Motivation * Work Distribution * Greater Than Code Episode 162: Glue Work with Denise Yu (https://www.greaterthancode.com/glue-work) 18:54 - Providing Support During a Pandemic * Stretching/Growth Work * Comfortable/Safety Work * Social Connection 23:37 - Keeping People Happy / Avoiding Team Burnout * Project Aristotle by Google (https://rework.withgoogle.com/print/guides/5721312655835136/) * Collecting Honest Data * Psychological Safety & Inclusion * Earned Dogmatism * “The Waffle House Solution” 36:26 - Developing Team Culture * “Gravity People” * Honing Communication Skills * Staying Ahead of Big Problems * The ACE Model of Leadership * Appreciation * Coaching * Evaluation * Learning Skills * Managers: Coaching How To Coach * Communities of Practice * Hiring External Consultants * Online Courses, Books, Podcasts 43:08 - Knowing When to Jump Ship and Understanding Your Skills * TKI Assessment (https://kilmanndiagnostics.com/assessments/thomas-kilmann-instrument-one-assessment-person/) * Competing * Collaborating * Compromising * Avoiding * Accommodating 46:51 - Developing & Enforcing Boundaries * Summarization * Normalization * Asking For Support 59:05 - Making Mistakes * Demonstrating Vulnerability * Acknowledge, Internalize, and Learn * Rebuilding Trust * Acceptance: Start Over – There's Other Opportunities * Dubugging Your Brain by Casey Watts (https://www.debuggingyourbrain.com/) Reflections: Arty: The intersection between identifying and acknowledging creates the precedent for the norm. Jacob: Evolving culture to enable vulnerability more. Casey: Andrew's river metaphor and Arty's cardboard cutout metaphor. Andrew: Talking about and building psychological safety is foundational. Going first as leadership or being first to follow. How to start a movement | Derek Sivers (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V74AxCqOTvg&feature=youtu.be) (being the first follower TED Talk) This episode was brought to you by @therubyrep (https://twitter.com/therubyrep) of DevReps, LLC (http://www.devreps.com/). To pledge your support and to join our awesome Slack community, visit patreon.com/greaterthancode (https://www.patreon.com/greaterthancode) To make a one-time donation so that we can continue to bring you more content and transcripts like this, please do so at paypal.me/devreps (https://www.paypal.me/devreps). You will also get an invitation to our Slack community this way as well. Transcript: ARTY: Hi, everyone. Welcome to Episode 248 of Greater Than Code. I'm Arty Starr and I'm here with my co-host, Jacob Stoebel. JACOB: Hello! Nice to be here, and I'm here with my other co-host, Casey Watts. CASEY: Hi, I'm Casey, and we're all here together with our guest today, Andrew Dunkman. Andrew, he/him, is an engineering leader and software developer with 17 years of experience. He's worked on and launched tools for contact relationship management, predictive sales, radiology and healthcare, learning and management, business-to-business timekeeping, and most recently in government at 18F, a part of the US General Services Administration that's helping the federal government adopt user-centered technology approaches. He loves those. He also likes building community in his free time. He helps moderate the DC Tech Slack, a 10,000-person community of tech workers in the DC area and he helps to run DC Code and Coffee, an informal hacking and community-building event every other weekend. Even though his cat, Toulouse, is glaring at him for talking too loud, he is excited to be here with us today. Hi, Andrew! ANDREW: Hey, y'all! So nice to be here. I'm honored to be a guest. CASEY: Let's start with our standard question to kick stuff off here. Andrew, what's your superpower and how did you acquire it? ANDREW: Thanks for asking. Yeah, this is whenever I answer the question of what my superpower is, it feels like bragging so I did what I normally do when I'm uncomfortable asking a question and I ask other people that question. I asked a few friends and they highlighted both, my ability to empathize with people and also, my sternness in that empathy. I think sometimes when you get caught up in empathizing with people, you can allow their emotions and their feelings to overwhelm you, or become a part of you in a way that you're not necessarily hoping for. So I like to draw a firm boundary there and then allow other people to see that boundary, I suppose. [laughs] I don't know, it's hard for me to say that that's a superpower, but I'm just going to lean into what other people told me. ARTY: That's a pretty good superpower. I like it. How did you acquire it? ANDREW: I credit my mom a lot actually. My mother is a dual major in psychology and English and as growing up, she had the worst way of punishing me, which is anytime I'd do something wrong, she would say, “Can you describe to me what you did and tell me how it made the other person feel?” which is the absolute worst thing to do to a child to make them explain how they've hurt you. [laughs] So I credit that a lot for developing those skills. CASEY: That's so funny. You think it's the worst thing you can do? Could you imagine yourself doing it ever if you're around children like that? ANDREW: Oh, totally. [laughs] Absolutely, yes. I now do it to my friend's children. I have no children myself, but I do to my friend's children and it's appropriately uncomfortable. CASEY: I like that. Yeah. It can be the worst and it can be helpful and productive. I believe it. ANDREW: Yes. As one of my coworkers like to say, “Two things can be true.” JACOB: That boundary, I've been thinking about something along the lines of that recently, particularly in work settings where you can get really burnt out in everything is high stakes emotionally at work. I think that's a really good boundary to have. ANDREW: Absolutely and it's also super hard to know. [chuckles] Both know where that boundary is and what to do when you are coming up to it. I think some people and myself occasionally notice you've crossed that boundary in retrospect, but not necessarily in the moment and it's hard to start off just know your tells when you're getting close to that line and when to pull the e-brake and take a walk, or go out and find some way to disengage, or reengage in yourself as a human and your human needs. CASEY: I'd love to hear an example of a time when you pulled the e-brake recently, Andrew. It's so vivid you must have a lot of stuff under that sentence. ANDREW: So my current organization, 18F, is one that's a matrixed so we've got our chapters is what we call them which is our disciplines. Those are engineering and design, product acquisitions, they're groups of people that do the same kind of work, and then our other angle of the matrix is our projects. Those are business verticals like the kinds of people that we're helping and the organizations that we're assisting around public benefits, or around national security, or around natural resources. So the result of a matrix organization is that you have two aspects to who's managing you—you have the manager of your work and you have the manager of your discipline—and the positive thing about that is that you can use both angles of the organization to support you in different ways. Sometimes in your work, you need someone to speak up for you as a person, or as your skills development angle and sometimes you need someone to speak up for you in terms of the project work that you're doing, advocating for success in the specifics of your project, regardless of the way you're contributing to that project. The result, as you zoom out into upper layers of management, is that you have a conflict designed into the system and that conflict, when things are working well, benefits the health of the organization, both the health of people and the health of projects are advocated for and supported. But when things get out of balance, which happens all the time, in every organization I've ever been in you've got pendulum swing back and forth between different balances and when things out of balance, then suddenly you find yourself overextended, or advocating to an empty room. A recent example was a conversation around advocating for the benefits of – I'm on the chapter side of the house so I support people within engineering and I had to pull an e-brake in a conversation where I was advocating for the health of people, but that I didn't have the right ears in the room to make a positive change. I found myself getting ahead of myself. One of the tells that I have is that I often feel tension in my jaw, which is usually a sign that I'm stressing too much about something. So I decided to take off a few hours and went to a gym [chuckles] and did a work out just to get the energy out of my system. ARTY: It seems like those conflicts can become pretty emotional depending on the circumstances where you've got folks that are overworked and stressed out, and wanting an advocate to help support them in those challenging circumstances. You just think about product deadlines and things coming up and the company's trying to survive and it needs to survive so it can keep people employed. Those things are important too, but then we've got these challenges with trying to live and be human and enjoy our lives and things become too stressful that we lose our ability to the function and we need advocates on various sides. So when you engage with someone, let's say, there's someone on the team that's burnt out and really stressed out, how would you approach empathizing with where they're coming from to help work toward some good the solution to these things? ANDREW: Great question. I think in these kinds of situations, I always come in with the acknowledgement that no one in this conversation owns the truth. We're both working together to understand what the best thing to do is and what the reality of the situation is. From my perspective, in trying to support someone seeing that they're burnt out, or overworked, that I think that's a misnomer. We can sometimes think of being burnt out overworked as an inherent state, or as something external. But I always try to encourage people to bring it internal because we all set boundaries and orders. The reality of an organization is that there will always be a resource constraint, whether that's people, or time, or money and it's up to the organization to effectively solve what they need to solve within the boundaries of those constraints. So when people are feeling overworked, or when they're feeling burnt out, oftentimes there's an imbalance there where the organization perhaps is trying to achieve too much, or perhaps there aren't enough resources supplied here. If you can both internalize it to yourself and say, “Okay, it's up to me to set responsible boundaries so that I'm not burnt out, so that I'm not overworked and how do I, as a manager, support you in finding that boundary and helping push back when people try to violate your boundaries?” Also, how do we, as an organization, understand where that line is and understand what kind of slack do we have? Because I think a lot of times in organizations, it's hard to see are we at 20% capacity, 200% capacity? It's hard to see because the more work you throw at people, unless you're getting pushback, it seems as if you still have more slack, more line you can pull. Part of this is acknowledging that there is a systems level problem here where there's a lack of visibility into how overworked someone is and also, helping someone recognize hey, here's my boundary. We're over at. Now let's figure out a, how do we move that boundary back to where it needs to be so that I'm a positive contributor to this team and I can live my life [chuckles] in a happy way and also, how do we raise this in a way that the organization can see so that we can ultimately be more successful?” If an organization is burning people out and making them feel overworked all the time, the work is not going to be successful. You care for people first and great people who are cared for then care for your projects and deliver great work. JACOB: Yeah, and it's like how can there'd be a health check for every person and what would that look like because I think if people are left to determine that for themselves, you can get really different conclusions from person. ANDREW: That is a great question I don't know the answer to. [laughs] I've been thinking about this a lot recently. My organization has a project health check where weekly, or bi-weekly, I can't remember, each project team talks about the different aspects of the work and whether, or not they're feeling well-supported, or if there are things external to the project that are getting in the way of project success. That gives you a data and interesting insights. We also track our time and there is a way that we track our time that's flagged as support to the team. So that's where managers and people who are assisting in making big project decisions, those people track their time to that separate line. That's also interesting to look at because typically people ask for help after they already need it and the people that are close to the project can see that they need help. So if you're looking at the time tracking, usually a week, or two before something shows up on this project health tracker, you see a spike in hours in the kinds of support that people are providing to the project. We have a lot of interesting data on the project health side of things, but it's really hard to collect data on the people part of this in a way that like makes people feel supported and it doesn't feel creepy. [chuckles] There's a whole aspect to this on whether, or not people feel comfortable reporting that they are feeling overworked and I haven't solved this problem. I'm curious if you all have ideas. [chuckles] I'd love to learn. ARTY: One of the things I'm thinking about with burnout in particular is I don't think it's directly correlated to the volume of work you're doing. There's other aspects and dimensions of things that go into burnout. So if I'm working on something that I'm really excited about, it can be difficult, it can be really challenging, it can be a huge amount of work, and yet as I work on it, as I get to the other side of that mountain I'm climbing, burnout isn't what I'm feeling like. It's a rush being able to accomplish something difficult and worthwhile as we don't necessarily burn out directly in correlation with working too many hours say, or something directly related to that. The things I find that happen when people get burned out is when they lose their heart connection with what they're doing. When you love what you do, when you're excited about what you're working on, when you're engaged and connected to a sense of purpose with what you're doing, then we usually stay in a pretty good, healthy state. We've got to maintain not still keeping in someone in balance, but we're doing pretty okay. Where I see developers usually burning out is there's some heart crushing aspect of things where people are disconnecting disengaging with what they're doing emotionally and they go into this mode of not caring anymore, not having those same compelling reasons to want to do those things and such that when that love connection dissipates, that work becomes too hard to maintain, to force yourself to do. So you start getting burnt out because you're forcing self yourself to do things that aren't an intrinsically motivated thing. I feel like the types of things that we need to do are activities that encourage this sense of heart connection with our team, with our project, with our customers. We do need visibility into those things, but maybe conversations, or even just knowing that those things are important, making time to scheduling time to invest in those sorts of things. I'm curious your thoughts on that. ANDREW: Yeah. Thank you for flagging that specifically. I think there's one thing that comes to mind for me is that is this work that you once loved that you no longer love? Like, is this something that you've connected with in the past and this really motivated you and now you're not motivated, I should say and if that's the case, what changed? I think brains are tricky and I think that we've all over the last pandemic, [chuckles] the current pandemic, I should say, the COVID pandemic is the one I'm referring to. I think that as people have coped with lots of trauma in their lives and significant shifts and changes, it's come out in interesting ways. I think, especially as people are learning themselves a little more with new constraints, the impacts are not always directly connected between say, the project work that you're doing, maybe something that you once loved, and now suddenly you no longer feel attached to that. What is that? Is that the work is somehow different? Is it that you really just your threshold for everything else in your life is just ticking higher and higher and higher so now it's really hard to engage in any of the things that you once loved? I personally have found myself, through the COVID pandemic, really finding meaning in repetition. So now I'm like a 560-day Duolingo streak and I've got podcasts I listen to every day of the week, and this repetition helps mark time in a way that makes me feel more like I have my life together. That gives me more capacity and reduces that stress threshold for me. So I think trying to narrow in on what specifically changed and how do we tackle that problem head on, and it might not be the work, or connection to the work. The other side of the question is, is this work your love? Maybe this is work that they've never really loved. Maybe this is grunt work—and one thing that I like to acknowledge is that every project has a grunt work associated with it and if you don't really have a framework for rotating that grunt work, a lot of times it falls to the person who has the least privilege on the team. So if as a positive team, you can work together and say, “Hey, these are the set of tasks that just needs to get done,” maybe that's notetaking in meetings, maybe that's sending out weekly status emails, or running a particular meeting. “Let's rotate that around so that we can find a balance between the grunt work and then the work that we're here to do this stuff that motivates us.” Because if the grunt work doesn't get done, the project won't be successful, but also, we all really want to work on the other thing, too. So let's make sure that no one here gets shafted with all that work [chuckles] and I think especially if teams haven't deliberately thought about that, patterns start to emerge in which people with less privilege get shafted. So I think that's something to be well acknowledge. JACOB: Quick shoutout. Episode 162 of this podcast, we talked with Denise Yu who really is framing exactly what you're talking about. She calls it glue work and it's that work that's maybe not directly recognized as a value add, but is the work that holds all of it together. So all of the work that might get done in JIRA, or around a Wiki, or organizing meetings, taking notes, all the above. The basic theory is like you said, how can that glue work be distributed equitably? Not to say that certain roles don't intrinsically need to do certain types of glue work because that's what their expertise is in. But it was a really good conversation. So if people are interested, go check that out, too. ANDREW: What are some ways that you're seeing that pandemic affect people in their work? ANDREW: I think the answer to that question is as varied as the number of people [laughs] that I support. I think each person is affected in dramatically different ways, which I didn't quite expect, but taking a step back and thinking about it, of course, each person's individual and each person reacts differently. But I would say that for some people, especially people in care-taking roles, that kind of work has to shift to support them. So if you're someone caretaking, you're often dealing with a lot of details in your out of work life and especially through the pandemic, now those lives are merging together. I'm currently at a remote organization and have been at a remote organization for the last 10 years, or so. The remote work thing is not necessarily new, but the complete merging of all of the things life and work is something that's still new and I think a lot of people who work remotely regularly often find ways to get out and get more exposure to people in their personal time, which is also something that has been limited. Especially if you're caretaking, you likely are doing that even less of your threshold for getting out is even lower. So if you're constantly dealing with details in your life, it might be good for you to take on more of that glue work, or more of the when you're thinking about the – I think I've worked in three categories. You've got the stretching work, or your growth work and that's work that is right on the cusp of your understanding. You're not really good at it yet, but by failing and by having moderate success, you grow as an individual. There's also your comfortable work, or your safety work and that's work that you're good at, you can knock it out of the park, do it really fast. I think for folks who are dealing with a lot in their personal life at the moment, leaning more towards the glue work, more towards the safety work is really important for making you feel successful and you're not really hungering that growth. I wished I remember the reference, but I heard someone referring to growth as being in a boat in a river before. Sometimes the river is wide and sometimes the river is narrow. When the river is wide, you really need to row. I found myself personally, in the last couple of years, not necessarily needing to grow as much and the river feels more narrow to me. So the current is faster and you're taken away with growth and you don't really need to do a lot to get there. Instead, you need to hold on [laughs] and try not to capsize. So that's one aspect, I would say I've seen people… CASEY: That's such a cool metaphor. I'm going to remember that. ANDREW: Yeah. I wish I remembered where I heard it from so that I can reference it for you all. It's definitely not an original idea of mine. But another aspect of the way people have individually in coping and needing support is around their social connection and that's an easy example. I think we've all felt differences in our social connection through COVID and sometimes that takes the form of having more structured meetings. Some people find more structure gives them the ability to communicate with each other in a way that makes you feel social and also isn't as draining and other people are the exact opposite where they want to get together in a room with less structure so that you can all just hang out and the structure gives people a sense of feeling stressed. The way that I've been looking across my organization is what kind of things are we providing and are they varied enough that we're capturing the majority of people in the support that they need? CASEY: I thought about a lot in the dance communities I am in that there is a lot of introverts that love to go dancing, partner dancing, because it's structured and they'll say so. Like, I love that I can just show up and do the thing and it's social, but I haven't thought about the other side of that, which you just said, which is some people don't want the structure. I'm sure those people exist and I just probably know a lot of them, but I haven't heard people say that about themselves as much. The introverts in the dance communities know and they say it. The other side, I'm going to look out for it. That's cool. ANDREW: I used to play music for religious music ministry and one of the rules we had is that if you're always picking things you like, you're leaving people out. I think of that not necessarily attached to music ministry, but attached to all the other work that I do and that's if your preferences are always represented, someone else's preferences are not. So trying to look around and say, “Who's not in the room right now, who could be benefiting from having their preferences heard once in a while?” CASEY: I want to jump back to how can we tell if people are about to be burnt out at work? How can we help people have a healthier environment? One of the lenses that I think about all the time is Project Aristotle by Google that came out, I don't know, maybe 5 years ago at this point and we're mentioning a lot of that aspects of it in our conversation already. Earlier, we were talking about on their list four and five are meaning of work like personal importance and impact of work, which is the company mission a little bit more. The other three that we touched on a little bit but not as much is psychological safety, which is number one on their list, dependability, like depending on each other, the coworkers, and structure and clarity, like goals, roles, and execution. I'm sure this is not a full list of what keeps individual employees happy. But I think a team environment that hits all of these five really well is going to have less burnout. More than individually, it's been studied. That's true. So when I did team health surveys before for the team, for the people, I like these five questions a lot. I bet it's a lot like the project surveys, Andrew, you were talking about. A lot of team health surveys are similar, but you got me thinking now what's missing from that list that's focused on the team that would show up in the individual one and I don't have a clear answer for that. ANDREW: And adding onto that, is there a way where you can collect honest data? I think one of the benefits of having one-on-one relationships with your immediate manager is that they can read between the lines and what you're saying after they get to know you well enough. I think for me, that usually happens about a year in with a new employee where you get to know someone well enough that you can understand. If they come to you and say, “Hey, I'm struggling with this right now in this project.” Is that a huge red flag, or is that normal? I think it takes a while to get to know someone and then you can read between the lines of what they're saying and say, “Okay, this is a big deal. It deserves my attention. I'm going to focus on this.” One of the things I struggle with capturing this information is that a, it's hard to capture that sort of interpretation part in these kinds of surveys and b, the data that you get is – when we were talking about burnout a lot, sometimes when people are burned out, they don't have the energy to submit these surveys. [chuckles] So the data is not particularly representative, but that's a hard thing to keep track of because how do you know? So it's a really tricky problem. I'm going to continue to try things [chuckles] to get this data, but I do like the idea of looking between the lines on if we're surveying team health, is there a way we can focus in on individuals? ARTY: There's also a lot of things that we don't talk about. Like Casey brought up psychological safety, for example and if you don't feel safe, you're not likely to necessarily bring up the reasons that you don't feel safe because you don't feel safe. [chuckles] I'm thinking about just some team dynamics of some teams I've worked on in the past where we had someone on the team that had a strong personality, and we would do code reviews and things, and some folks that were maybe more junior on the team felt sensitive and maybe attacked by certain things. But the response was to shut down and fall in line with things and not rock the boat and you ask him what's going on and everything's fine. So there's dynamics of not having psychological safety, but you might not necessarily get at those by talking to folks. Yet, if you're sitting in the room and you know the people and see the interactions taking place, you see how they respond to one another in context. Because I'm thinking about where those dynamics were visible and at the time, the case I'm thinking of was before the days where we were doing pull requests and stuff, where we did our code reviews in a room throwing code up on the screen and would talk through things that way. You'd see these dynamics occur when someone would make a comment and how another human would just respond to that person and you see people turn in words on themselves. These sorts of just dynamics of interaction where people's confidence gets shut down, or someone else is super smart and so they won't challenge them because well, they're a super smart person so obviously, they know. Some people speak in a certain way that exudes confidence, even if they're not necessarily confident about their idea, they just present in a certain way and other people react to that. So you see these sorts of dynamics in teams that come up all the time that are the silent undercurrents of how we all manage to get along with one another and keep things flowing okay. How do we create an environment and encourage an environment where people feel safer to talk about these things? ANDREW: To me, psychological safety and inclusion are very closely tied and I believe that inclusion is everyone's responsibility on a team and in the situation you described there, who else was in that room and why didn't they stop it? I think that it's easy to say, “Oh, these two people are having a disagreement here,” but if we all truly believe that it's our responsibility to create a safe environment and include everyone and their ideas. As you mentioned, everyone in that room could see what was happening. [chuckles] So I think there's a cultural thing there that perhaps needs some work as an organization and I'm not saying that that is something that I don't experience in my teams as well. I think this is work that's constant and continual. Every time you notice something, it's to bring it up and invite someone back into the conversation. Some people like to think about calling out, or versus calling in and I really like that distinction. When someone oversteps a boundary, or makes a mistake, they've removed themselves from this safe community, and it's up to you as a safe community to invite them back in and let them know their expectations and I like the idea of that aspect of calling people in. Obviously, that requires some confidence and I encourage people, especially people that have institutional privilege, to especially looking out for this because you can really demonstrate to your team how much you're willing to support them if you keep an eye out for these kinds of dynamics. One thing you mentioned really made me think about earned dogmatism. When people are around for a longer time, they become more closed-minded. That's the earned dogmatism effect and it's the idea that since you've been here for so long, or since you've been working in this industry so long, you're the expert and it causes you to become more and more closed-minded to new ideas, which obviously is not good. [laughs] So anytime I see that pattern popping up, I try to just let people know like, “Hey, do you know about this effect? Do you know that this happens with people in teams and is that how you would like to be? Would you like to become more close-minded, or would you like to continue learning?” I think just the awareness of the fact that that's something that you're going to inherently start doing helps people fight against that. JACOB: I'm trying to imagine just a typical, if you can call it that, team in a tech company and they're probably in a state where a lot of these things we're talking about might not come so easy because I think what we're saying is that a lot of this is dependent on everyone on the team being vulnerable about where they're at. I wonder if you have any ideas about how a team can get from there to the ideal state because it sounds like that's a really big barrier. I can't have better psychological safety and inclusion without somehow getting people's feedback and I can get feedback if they don't feel safe. So is there some iterative way to improve on that? ANDREW: Yeah. So one thing that I have direct experience with is in the federal government, there's a lot of funding models between the federal government and local governments where the federal government will pay for a majority of something as long as the local government follows a set of rules on implementing a program. So like Medicare and Medicaid are examples of this and other benefits programs as well. Even the federal highway system; the reason why our interstates are all the same is because the federal government pays for a majority of them if the local authorities building roads follows a set of rules and guidelines. I think that's one of the most dramatic examples of a power difference. If you're forming a joint team to make changes to Medicare, or build a new highway, or improve rail service in your city and one person in the room controls 90% of the money. I think that's a pretty dramatic example of what could be a really psychologically unsafe environment and it requires a lot of effort to break down that boundary of, “Hey, I'm here to say yes to what you want.” But then the reality is the federal government representatives in those situations are often looking to collaborate and help solve problems because they're looking out to see how do I best spend this money to achieve the best effect. But the tendency is that other members of the team coming from the 10% side of the house, they're responsible for the execution of the program and so, they tend to hide mistakes, or hide hiccups as much as possible so that they don't get their funding cut. That's just a very natural thing that happens and the experience that I have in this situation is what I like to think of as the Waffle House solution. I heard of a particular person in this situation taking the whole team to Waffle House. This obviously works better in-person. It's hard to take people to Waffle House remotely; that's definitely not something that you can't do. The idea behind that conversation is just the problem here is that you're not connecting with each other on a human level and you want to be safe to share your vulnerability with each other, but before you can be vulnerable with each other, you have to recognize each other's humanity and let everyone know that you respect each other. I think an easy way to do that is to share a meal, maybe it's to play a game together, maybe it's to schedule a meeting for 30 minutes in which you talk about note work. In the example that I gave it's up to the person in the position of power here to set that example, because if you're someone without that privilege, if you are someone who pays for 10% of a project instead of 90%, it's hard for you to go to your 90% funder and say, “Can I waste 30 minutes of your time? Can I waste half a day?” Because waste in this case is the idea from the business side of the house. You're wasting time. But in reality, if you slow down and connect with each other on a human level—slow is smooth and smooth is fast—so you can help the team develop that sense of humanity with each other, create an environment where hopefully you can be more vulnerable with each other and collaborate more humanly with each other. So I wouldn't necessarily say that this is a textbook plan like okay, you've got problems on your team, let's go to Waffle House and the problem solves. [chuckles] I'm not saying that but I am saying perhaps look for opportunities for you to recognize each other's humanity, and break down perhaps a structure that might be standing in the way of connecting with each other, and then just focusing on that can hopefully help you find that vulnerability better. JACOB: You can't take yourself seriously at a Waffle House. It's just not possible. ANDREW: [laughs] I'm pretty serious about Waffle House. I don't know about you. [laughs] CASEY: I'm starting to get a craving here. Yeah, totally agree. I love that this is being talked about more and more, how do we build psychological safety on teams? It comes from trust, human connection, vulnerability, and how do we build that? By treating each other as humans. ARTY: The things I think about just contrasting some teams I've seen over time and how they ended up developing and the culture that emerged is the technical leadership on the team that organically evolves. Some people have strong personalities. They tend to naturally act in a leader-oriented way. Even if they don't officially have the title hat on their head, they're somebody that people respect and look up to. They value their opinion and thoughts and whoever those people are that have the natural gravity tend to have a lot of influence over the emergent culture. So when I've seen people in that position, be really supportive of listening to the ideas of other folks on the team, creating space and treating people with respect, creating an environment where people are heard and listened to and it's about the ideas that the behavior of those people have an outsized impact on the culture that emerges by just how they interact and treat you respect others and other folks on the team tend to mimic and model that behavior of wherever that natural kind of gravity is going toward. If you've got folks on the team that are like that, that have a tendency to lift up other people around them, then what emerges is a much more psychologically safe environment. When you've got somebody in that gravity position that has an ego defensive response, they want to continue to feel like the confident expert ones, when people say counter things that are positioned as a challenge and you get a very different set of dynamics that emerge where people tend to be more walk on eggshells, try to say things very carefully to not upset things. I feel like it's just human instinct response depending on who's in the room, who you're talking to, how you anticipate they will react to something, that emergent interactions come from that and that whoever those gravity people are tend to have this outsize influence. So who you have in your organization of those folks? I'd say probably being really careful to hire people that have a tendency to and a desire to want to lift other people up and to maybe not have such a fragile competitive ego dynamic going on. ANDREW: Absolutely. Well, I have lots of feelings on hiring, [chuckles] but I do think that in the tech industry, we don't spend as much time focusing on communication and then I think that we should. I think a lot of times people who are in that ego situation are expressing vulnerability, but poorly and I think if they had more communication skills, they could potentially express that differently in a way that was more positive to culture. So zooming back to one of the things you said around leadership, evolution, evolutionary culture, and who steps into leadership roles, I think one of the things that is really important to me about good leadership is staying ahead of what your big problems are and that isn't necessarily saying working ahead of everyone else. That's saying keeping your eye on the horizon. Like, are you looking out to where we're going and what kind of problems are we seeing here? If there's an acknowledgement of an issue with psychological safety on teams, letting leaders emerge naturally may not be the right approach. You can deliberately select someone who demonstrates the culture that you want to create on a team has that technical leader and give them – I like the ACE model, the appreciation, the coaching, and the evaluation of leadership, where you give them that appreciation on the particular things that they're doing really well and in front of the team so that the team can say, “Oh, that's what the norm is here. That's what we should be doing.” That also gives the person, who may have perhaps more of a natural leadership role, if that would have naturally emerged, but perhaps it's missing some of those communication skills, or other skills that makes them a more around teammate, gives them an opportunity to be out of the spotlight so that they can work on developing those skills and becoming a more active contributor to the team instead of holding it back in some ways. CASEY: I love that we keep saying the word “skill: because these are all learnable skills. You can learn how to communicate well. You can learn how to be a strong, effective leader. You can learn how to foster a psychologically safe and inclusive environment. You can learn all these things. I love to work at places where they want this, the culture that the leaders, the people who run the company, want it even if they don't know how yet because that growth is possible as long as there's the desire for that. I think we all have a base level of desire, but some people are aware of it and articulate it and say – I saw a tweet the other day. Someone was looking for a job and of their five criteria, top five they listed in the tweet, psychological safety was on the list. That person knows they want to work on a team like that. That's pretty cool. So someone wants their team to learn these skills. A natural way is managers coaching their employees to do that kind of thing like coaching how to coach. That can work pretty well. It's pretty powerful. Another one is communities of practice, where you have people come together and talk. It could even literally be about culture. Some companies have a culture, community of practice, where they talk about how to influence the culture. Some places don't have the skills yet and they hire external coaches. There's a whole bunch of companies including me. For myself, I'm a consultant for making happy teams. I do coaching and training, too. There's online courses, there's books, there's podcasts like Greater Than Code. It's pretty good. You should check it out. [chuckles] But acknowledging the problem, being aware of it is a huge key first step and I don't like to push for a psychological safety in a place that doesn't value it. That's just a recipe for burnout for me. It's happened to me a lot, but in an environment where it is already desired, getting people from wanting to, to being able to. That's super satisfying work. I think that's true for anyone in tech who is talking about this kind of stuff, who cares about it. You want to make a difference where you can. ANDREW: Absolutely knowing when to jump ship at an organization because you are fighting upstream at a time when you are either being taken away in the current, or there aren't enough other people around you to swim upstream with you, it is super important. One of the things that helped me open a door in my life that I'd be happy to share with you all is an assessment I took a couple of years back called the TKI assessment, Thomas Kincaid Institute assessment, or something. I could've gotten that all wrong, but it's a tool that helps you understand what skills you already have around conflict resolution and what skills you can grow around conflict resolution. That unlocked a lot in my life specifically because it allowed me to understand how I naturally resolve conflict, to understand when I should push against my natural instincts to resolve conflict, and when I should feel that I have exhausted my abilities to resolve this conflict. That last step is a great indicator if you've tried everything you can to resolve the conflict, and maybe that conflict is around creating a psychologically safe workspace, you yourself cannot do this. So can you bring in other people that can help resolve this, or is it time to walk away and find a team that supports you better? The five different modes that they reference in TKI are competing, collaborative, collaborating, I should say, compromising, avoiding, and accommodating. When I first took the assessment, I scored a 0 in competing which means I had no recognizable skill in competing. When I look back into my history, my childhood, how I was raised, that totally makes sense. I was raised in a household where when people wronged you, you let it go. You moved on to find people who would support you and believed that that person would eventually experience justice and that was not your responsibility to do that. Applying to my work-life today, that means people can walk over me. [laughs] So how do you pick up those skills? The assessment doesn't necessarily dive too much into how you pick up the skills, but I think just knowing where your blind spots are was really helpful for me, because then I could recognize a situation where a, I flagged that I'm experiencing conflict. B, my natural tendency is to accommodate this conflict, or avoid it. C, is that the right approach for this environment? Is that a right approach for this problem? And then d, either do that approach, or change it. It's really uncomfortable. Often, when I'm competing, it makes me feel selfish and I acknowledge that. So when I'm like, “Okay, I'm going to change my approach and I'm going to compete here. I'm going to argue.” It's like, “Okay, I'm readying myself,” like, “Okay, I'm going to feel selfish now, be ready to feel selfish, go for it.” [laughs] And that's just sort of how I counteract those natural tendencies. So I wouldn't say there's one particular magic bullet, or this is the assessment that you should do, or anything like that, but there are a number of tools out there to sort of help you understand yourself and what skills you have and what skills you might want to grow into. They can also provide a sense of completeness around a particular skill area, like conflict avoidance, or conflict resolution, and let you know when you've exhausted the available options in front of you. ARTY: That's interesting to me just thinking about where we started this discussion with boundaries and just people can react in a different way, and if you have someone who's kind of overstepping boundaries, how do you learn to stand up for yourself? If your instinct is to just run away from conflict, whenever it comes up, then we've got other sorts of problems and stuff that emerges. Sometimes, the right thing to do is to stand up for yourself and to be able to have the confidence to feel like you can. One of the things that that helps me with that is when someone else is upset and reacting and stuff is maybe they're attacking me, or something is to separate myself personally for that. So if I imagine them in their head and I'm a cardboard cutout character that I'm like, “Okay, they're kicking the cardboard character and that's not me.” They have a picture in their head of this little cardboard character that they've got an upset relationship with that that's separate from me. I can look at the dynamics that are of what's going on with them and why they're upset with this cardboard character, understand what's going on in their world with separating myself from that, and then I can respond in a way that is standing up for myself without necessarily reacting to the situation where I feel like I need to defend myself against an attack that something going on that really has nothing to do with me, but still, I need to be able to stand up for myself and not necessarily back away from the situation. So I find those kinds of skills really help with being able to not take other people's stuff so personally. You talked about the challenge with boundaries and over empathizing can put us in a situation where the things that other people say can end up hurting us a lot, or we internalize somebody else's feeling so much, or someone else's worldview so much that we can lose ourselves in someone else's emotions and feels. How do we separate enough so that we can have a solidity in our own self and our own sense of knowing such that we can have our own compass that doesn't fall over, that we can feel bolstered in ourselves, independent of what everyone else is doing? That's where that empathy and boundaries and resilience and stuff come in. So a question for you, you did mention this boundary thing early on, what are some of the things that have helped you to develop boundaries, or some of the tools that you use to help in those challenging situations? ANDREW: I love the cardboard cutout analogy. I personally like to replay situations as if they're soap operas. I'll describe the characters, especially when things get heated emotionally, it's easy for me to recognize it as a soap opera, which helps me chuckle about the emotional component of it in a way that externalizes it from my feelings. It's a really tough situation. That's a tough ask. I think one thing that I do in the exact moments when I am feeling hurt, or valued, or some kind of emotional component is attached to something someone just told me is to again, pull that e-brake and say, “Okay, stop. I am not my work.” Similar to when you submit a pull request, you are not your code. I am not my work. I am not this conversation. I'm a whole self, I am valued as myself. I'm surprised by something that just happened and I'm reacting to it in a particular emotion, emotional reaction. So if you can create a pattern, when people get you into that emotional state, whether, or not they were intending on getting you there, of saying, “Hold on, I'm caught off guard by that. Can you tell me more?” Like, “I don't understand that comment.” It shifts the power dynamic from someone putting you on the spot, which they may, or may not have intended to do, to shift it back towards them to say, “Now the responsibility is on you as the person who has made me feel upset, or I'm caught off guard by that and the responsibility now is on you to describe more so that I can contextualize the emotion that I'm feeling, or just give me time to react to that.” You don't always have to immediately respond and oftentimes, I find myself reacting too quickly. All of the tools that I have in my toolbox are slowing down. That's one of the tools that I definitely use to help acknowledge that something is unusual. Another tool is I'm asking people to summarize so acknowledging that, “Hey, I'm surprised by that and I'm starting to get lost in the details of this meeting. Would it be all right if I asked you to summarize the main points here, or could you follow-up in Slack after this, or follow-up an email after this?” That's another one of those, like my natural tendency to avoid. It's like okay, I can take a step back here and avoid this immediate conflict, or this immediate emotion, and then take a breather. Often, in the before times, as I would go out and speak at conferences and I'm not a natural extrovert. I have this tendency after I speak at a place to go find a closet, or some dark room somewhere [chuckles] just to recharge a little bit, do nothing. I often will just sit there and sweat in a closet for 30 minutes, or something like that. That process allows me to reset my blood chemistry and say, “Okay, how do I fully acknowledge this situation?” Like, do I feel like I did a good job? Am I proud of the work that I'm doing? Am I proud of this? Is this where my boundaries should be? It allows me to give that moment to step away, to reset a little bit. So it's something I think that I will spend the rest of my life learning, which is how to recognize my boundaries and set them appropriately, and I think that's right. I should be continuing to learn as I continue to change. ARTY: I really liked the summary thing. Just thinking about someone's really upset, it's a pretty safe question to ask and at the same time, it forces them to take a step back and really think about what it is that they're trying to say. Because usually when we're upset, we just spew lots of words of upsetness, but it forces you to shift into more of a thinking mode away from emotional mode, which I feel like would have a really good impact on level setting the conversation. Just take a deep breath. What is it you're trying to communicate here? What are the main points? I really liked that summarization idea. ANDREW: The one thing I always myself in those moments is, “Nothing is more important than my next breath,” and that helps me to unplug from the situation and focus on breathing and focus on relaxing and then be able to show back up and reengage. JACOB: Something that I think can be important is if I'm at work and I'm realizing that I need to be vulnerable in one way, or another because I need to draw a boundary, or for some other reasons, something that I feel like would be really important that I would really need to have is an example that would give me some idea of what will happen when I do that. How can team members get examples of what happens when I'm vulnerable, because if they don't know what will happen, they're probably going to be left to their own personal experiences from maybe at another job, or something like that, that probably don't apply, that probably would be completely different. So it's like, how can managers, or leaders help people see, or experience examples of this is how we talk about difficult conversations to normalize it and just help people understand, like, this is what will happen and this is the way we go about it and yes, it will be safe. ANDREW: I don't think you can say that. [laughs] JACOB: I know. ANDREW: And that maybe is controversial, but I don't think you can say, “Yes, this will be safe.” I think you can strive for it and you can work for an environment that's safe, but in a professional setting, there's always a line and maybe it's not safe to share something that you think is appropriate to share and there are lots of reasons for that. Maybe it's the impact on other people. But the pattern I like to encourage and people just ask for permission, which is something that is maybe not always universally applicable advice, but oftentimes, I find myself talking to people when they're on teams where they want to say something controversial, or they want to say something difficult, or they want to share something that's personal and how they attach to this project, or this work, or something that happened in the team. I think there's a lot of power in asking people to support you to coming in and saying, “I really want to share something with you all and I'm not sure how it's going to go. Can you support me in this? What are you interested in hearing?” The way I often say it, when I'm trying to say something controversially is, “Can I be spicy for a moment?” [laughs] And that's an acknowledgement of saying like, “Hey, I'm going to say something comfortable.” It gives people a moment to set their expectations and it gives them a moment to recognize how they should respond before they hear what you say and then are caught up in the emotion of the response. I think that's a really kind thing you can do to your team to say like, “Hey, can I be vulnerable for a second here?” Like, “This is a project which involves researching prison populations and three of my family members are in prison.” If you lead off with saying, “Three of my family members are in prison,” people don't know how to understand that comment. But if you start by saying, “Can I be vulnerable for a second?” People will recognize that hey, you're showing something deep about you and your personality and it's something tied to your sense of identity, or something deep within you in a way that is not the responsibility of the team to validate, or say it's right, or wrong. But it is the responsibility to the team to hear you and to understand you and ask questions to say, “Hey, tell me more about that. Tell me more about how that connects to this work,” or “Do you want to interview some of your family for research on this project?” [chuckles] Or “Do you want them to stay out of this project?” Or “How do we support you as a team member? Is this something that you want to acknowledge, but you'd prefer to put that in a box and keep it on the shelf, or is that a part of your identity that you'd like to bring to this conversation and bring to this work?” I think those conversations like can really benefit from that asking for permission step and you don't really need to wait for people's answers there, [chuckles] but it gives you an opportunity to set the tone for the conversation. JACOB: I feel like if I was working on your team and I saw Andrew use that phrase, “Can I have permission to be vulnerable? Can I be spicy?” I feel like later when I felt like I needed to be vulnerable, I would feel a lot more comfortable because now here's a map that's if I do this, it's probably not completely out of bounds and that now I have a way to know here's how we go about that on this team, because there's a leader who modeled it. ARTY: Yeah, bingo. I was just thinking about all the different ways I've screwed things up and stuff and learned, I guess, the hard way, what boundaries are the hard way of what unsafe things are is by making mistakes and screwing things up. I think about some of these experiences that I had and I feel like the saving grace for me, even when I messed something up, is that I genuinely cared and that people knew that and could see that and so, that when I apologize for something, it was authentic and that we could move forward and stuff because I cared. Underneath it all, I genuinely care. So even though I made some mistakes and stuck with things that was okay. And then after that, when I was thinking about being in more of a leadership position, one of the things I made a point of doing was putting mistakes and stuff I've made on center stage. Making it okay and safe for people to talk about when they screwed something up. Being in a leadership position, when I talked about all the things that “Well, I screwed up this thing, I screwed up this thing;” it makes it okay when our leaders demonstrate vulnerability, or create ways and pathways that show us how to do those things safely, too. ANDREW: That reminds me of a friend of mine had a conversation with me last weekend specifically around a mistake that they had made and that mistake was in an online community. They were discussing building a world in a video game and they suggested building something that was offensive. They immediately dove into how they didn't know it was offensive at the time and that the reaction that other people gave to them was inappropriate and that they felt like they didn't know how to apologize in a way that would help support growth, or reengagement with the community, and that they felt like, “Maybe I'm just being canceled,” or maybe people are overreacting here. After the whole conversation, I just let them talk out and they ended with like, “How do I reengage here when people are now ignoring me?” and I just said, “Well, you don't deserve a second chance.” Not that anyone deserves to be canceled immediately, or cut out, but when someone says something offensive that you take offense in, it's up to that person how much tolerance they have for you. If someone has decided that this in this situation was so offensive, or that their tolerance for that offense is low, you don't get a second chance there. That's a mistake that becomes part of you and hopefully, you can allow that burden to not rest on your shoulders and hold you down, but you can internalize it and learn from it, and it becomes part of the foundation you stand on so that you don't make these kinds of mistakes next time. And also, [chuckles] demonstrating an aspect of my superpower, I disagree with you. I don't think you didn't know that that was offensive. [chuckles] I think you had that part of your brain turned off and hey, can we like talk about that? I think that this particular thing, you knew it was offensive, but you were thinking about this in a different context, or you thought this would be okay, and now you're rewriting this and placing yourself as a victim. That is a dangerous pattern so don't do that. [chuckles] I think that in a work setting, tying this back, when you are having these difficult, or vulnerable conversations, being able to acknowledge when you've made a mistake, maybe perhaps when you've shared something that is offensive, or perhaps you've made a comment about someone else's moment that's offensive, it's really important to acknowledge the mistake to provide the opportunity for others to give your feedback and acknowledge that you've damaged trust here. It's your responsibility as the person who damaged that trust to then rebuild it and maybe rebuilding that trust means leaving the organization, or changing teams, or maybe that means really, truly deeply listening and empathizing with people moving into that position of hurt that you've caused and being uncomfortable with it, especially when you're personally wrong. When I'm personally wrong, I really feel that I want people to understand how much I'm hurt and if there isn't a great opportunity to share that pain with someone it's hard to accept their apology, because you don't feel like they understand. In those situations, it's up to the person who's done the controversial thing, or overstepped that boundary to step in and say, “Let's talk about this when you're ready.” ARTY: And also, the other thing I'm just thinking is that when things do happen, we need opportunities and stuff to start over, too. Sometimes the right thing to do is walk away from the whole thing, but learn from it and there's always, there's so many people out there, there's so many opportunities out there, and we're surfing on the waves of life. We learn things along the way and there's always new relationships and things we can build and if we take those lessons and stuff with us for when we do screw things up that maybe we can navigate the next opportunity a little bit different. I've had enough facepalm moments and stuff of just relationships where the things that come to mind for me are things where someone was put off from me because I'm kind of the passionate, excited person and not everyone knows how to deal with that, or might think I'm a weirdo, or something. So I'll scare someone away and I don't mean to. I'm like, “But I'm a nice person” kind of thing, but sometimes there's nothing you can do about it. It's like this first impression thing that you can never really fix, but there's other opportunities out there, there's other relationships, and maybe the purpose of this interaction in your life is just for you to internalize and learn this lesson so that you carry it with you forward. We're all surfing on the waves of life and these kinds of things happen and it's not the end. It's just an opportunity. It's an opportunity to learn a lesson that then we can take with us into the future. ANDREW: Absolutely. Yeah, I know. I've been fired from jobs, had friends cut me out of their lives and made a lot of mistakes. That becomes part of who I am and I carry that forward and I'm happy that I've made these mistakes in my past because they prepared me for making bigger mistakes in the future. What could be more fun? CASEY: A lot of people get stuck on these experiences, thinking about them over and over and over in a loop and one way to get out of the loop is to correct the situation, which people like to try first, of course. Like, try to get back into that relationship, or community. Another way is to realize there's nothing you can do and move on, that's often called acceptance in meditation mindfulness terms. But it can be hard to get to acceptance if you feel like there's something you can do still, or something you could learn, you didn't learn everything you could yet and how to do that is hard. It's a lot of the chapters in the book I wrote, Debugging Your Brains. I'm not going to go into that right now, but there are things you can do to get out of the loop when you're stuck in the loop. I feel so awkward ever plugging my own stuff, but it's so relevant. That's what we're talking about here. [laughter] Y'all don't mind, I know. JACOB: No, I'm glad to hear about it. CASEY: Now let's go to reflections. So at this is the part of the episode where we each reflect on something that stuck out to us. Something we'll take with us. Something that was interesting from today's episode. ARTY: One of the things that stood out to me as we were talking about psychological safety, and these dynamics of leadership and who we choose as leaders as being important is this intersection between once we identify what the kinds of things are that we want to select for, that we can identify those people and then give them acknowledgement, the baton of an official hat
In this episode we talk to the founder of Soulhub Carmen Rendell and her partner Andrew Cuerden. We all have our stories and this forms an integral part of our journey to enlightenment. In this podcast Andrew and Carmen are open enough to share their stories of how they ended up where they are today. Andrews Bio Gift: Andrew is a skilled movement and emotion therapist. By integrating dance with a variety of other physical and metaphysical disciplines, Andrew assists individuals to find their own unique state of physical and emotional grounding, balance and effortless rhythm.Biography: He spent his life learning to Latin and Ballroom dance from the community halls of South Africa, before coming to the UK when he was 20 years old. He was one of the professional dancers on ‘Strictly' in 2005 and has since spent his life dedicated to teaching others his love of dance.His work is about facilitating nourishing social interactions and a sense of community through music and dance. He specialises in expertly crafting social dance experiences that not only entertain and educate but inspire holistic wellbeing through meaningful connections.Whether you're looking for an online fun ‘Cha Cha Cha' class, or you want to learn how to express yourself fully, Andrew uses dance as a mechanism to tap into the body and our emotional states. To unclear the blockages, work through presenting emotions, and build confidence in all areas of your life.So to book a group class, corporate team building, one-on-one lessons then Andrew uses his 30 years of dance experience to reach you at the level you're at, and create the best environment for you to thrive in. His nature is soft, approachable, kind and soulful. He leads with strength and passion, and will take you on a dream journey through dance.Why we love Andrew: For his undeniable raw talent and passion for dance. His cheeky smile. His ability to translate movement and emotions, and use his intuition to work through what's really going on for you, using dance, movement and language. His gentleness, humour, and presence.Carmen's BioThe SoulwalkerAs unique as we all are, we are also the same. Humans, as a species have a limited amount of emotions, but the complexity about how they are seeded in our bodies, how they are expressed, and how we deal or don't deal with them depends on many variations. Our environment, our upbringing, even our past life existence, how we are perceived in the world, and how we perceive the world. Everything has a role to play in our evolution.That's why I do what I do. I love to help others unravel their patterns and behaviours. To explore themselves with a curious eye to ultimately find freedom in their minds and bodies.I do this in many ways, but mostly by simply being with you, and enabling you to go through your unique process to self understanding. It can be painful, it can be joyful. But ultimately it's a path worth taking more than any other in this world right now. It's a gift to yourself.The exploration is supported through my education, but also life experience which has been influenced strongly by some of the best mentors in the world, and my own fascination with the human psyche.If possible, I love to walk in nature with you. To connect to something bigger than us. To allow the world to guide us. If walking isn't an option, online can enable a space for new creation and freedom of expression too.As Founder of Soulhub, my vision is to help others understand themselves better, because from this place, the world will already be a better world.There are 3 key ways to work with me:1 – Deep Dive2 – Your regular walking therapy (Soulwalking Therapy) or3 – Leadership/team offsite exploration Firstly, a bit more about ME.I'v
In this episode we talk to the founder of Soulhub Carmen Rendell and her partner Andrew Cuerden. We all have our stories and this forms an integral part of our journey to enlightenment. In this podcast Andrew and Carmen are open enough to share their stories of how they ended up where they are today. Andrews Bio Gift: Andrew is a skilled movement and emotion therapist. By integrating dance with a variety of other physical and metaphysical disciplines, Andrew assists individuals to find their own unique state of physical and emotional grounding, balance and effortless rhythm.Biography: He spent his life learning to Latin and Ballroom dance from the community halls of South Africa, before coming to the UK when he was 20 years old. He was one of the professional dancers on ‘Strictly’ in 2005 and has since spent his life dedicated to teaching others his love of dance.His work is about facilitating nourishing social interactions and a sense of community through music and dance. He specialises in expertly crafting social dance experiences that not only entertain and educate but inspire holistic wellbeing through meaningful connections.Whether you’re looking for an online fun ‘Cha Cha Cha’ class, or you want to learn how to express yourself fully, Andrew uses dance as a mechanism to tap into the body and our emotional states. To unclear the blockages, work through presenting emotions, and build confidence in all areas of your life.So to book a group class, corporate team building, one-on-one lessons then Andrew uses his 30 years of dance experience to reach you at the level you’re at, and create the best environment for you to thrive in. His nature is soft, approachable, kind and soulful. He leads with strength and passion, and will take you on a dream journey through dance.Why we love Andrew: For his undeniable raw talent and passion for dance. His cheeky smile. His ability to translate movement and emotions, and use his intuition to work through what’s really going on for you, using dance, movement and language. His gentleness, humour, and presence.Carmen's BioThe SoulwalkerAs unique as we all are, we are also the same. Humans, as a species have a limited amount of emotions, but the complexity about how they are seeded in our bodies, how they are expressed, and how we deal or don’t deal with them depends on many variations. Our environment, our upbringing, even our past life existence, how we are perceived in the world, and how we perceive the world. Everything has a role to play in our evolution.That’s why I do what I do. I love to help others unravel their patterns and behaviours. To explore themselves with a curious eye to ultimately find freedom in their minds and bodies.I do this in many ways, but mostly by simply being with you, and enabling you to go through your unique process to self understanding. It can be painful, it can be joyful. But ultimately it’s a path worth taking more than any other in this world right now. It’s a gift to yourself.The exploration is supported through my education, but also life experience which has been influenced strongly by some of the best mentors in the world, and my own fascination with the human psyche.If possible, I love to walk in nature with you. To connect to something bigger than us. To allow the world to guide us. If walking isn’t an option, online can enable a space for new creation and freedom of expression too.As Founder of Soulhub, my vision is to help others understand themselves better, because from this place, the world will already be a better world.There are 3 key ways to work with me:1 – Deep Dive2 – Your regular walking therapy (Soulwalking Therapy) or3 – Leadership/team offsite exploration Firstly, a bit more about ME.I’v
Talking about Football Bowl Series Games Best bowls and Best Games Semis Notre Dame Bama and Clemson Ohio St. Thanks Michael and Andrew For joining my podcast!!
Andrew Jasko joins the podcast to discuss his work with religious and spiritual trauma. More about Andrew: For many people, belonging to a religious group is one of the most important aspects of their lives, but at the same time, it can be psychologically traumatizing. Harmful religious teachings can crush your self-worth and self-esteem, leaving […]
The Hermit's Lamp Podcast - A place for witches, hermits, mystics, healers, and seekers
Andrew, Fabeku, and Aidan (aka Stacking Skulls) get together to talk about living during this ongoing pandemic. They talk about astrology, racism, colonialism, magic, getting by, and so much more. Think about how much you've enjoyed the podcast and how many episodes you listened to, and consider if it is time to support the Patreon You can do so here. If you want more of this in your life you can subscribe by RSS , iTunes, Stitcher, or email. Aidan is here. Fabeku is here. Andrew is here. Thanks for joining the conversation. Please share the podcast to help us grow and change the world. Andrew You can book time with Andrew through his site here. Transcript is below. Andrew: Hey, folks. Welcome to another episode of The Hermit's Lamp Podcast. At the time of this recording, it is, basically, the end of August, and been on a hiatus since the earth of spring from podcasting. Just too busy with dealing with all of the chaos of COVID and all of that chaos and everything else. But, I was thinking that the last episode that I did with Stacking Skulls was called WTF, and I think that the title for this one is probably WTF Still? Because, here we are so many months out from what's going on, and yet still life is chaotic and uncertain, and, really, especially for folks in America, way worse in some ways than it was back then. I don't think that we are still cruising around the idea that it might be, "Yeah, three weeks of lockdown, maybe a little bit longer," and now we're in the phase of, "Is there an end? When's the end? How does an end of this come together?" And, all that wear and tear that's kicked around. So, anyways, if you don't know Stacking Skulls, well, number one, you're in for a treat. There's a whole bunch of episodes of us clowning around together. But, I'm here with Fabeku and Aidan, and we're just going to check in as my fall relaunch of the podcast happens. So, yeah, who wants to go first, what's going on? How's the last five months been? Aidan: The last five months have been ridiculous. Andrew: Yeah. Aidan: It's been crazy busy, partially. We were pointed at doing... When I say we in this context, that's me and my wife... doing another class but with COVID and everybody being sent home, we realized that that didn't make any sense to try and put anything out that was a larger money thing. Because, it seemed like it was quite possible we weren't going to have much money and we didn't really feel great about trying to get 300 bucks or something out of people at that moment in time, because, really, we couldn't tell how things were going. So, we changed gears back to my second book, and so I've been rapidly finishing that and then learning InDesign to put it all together and get it printed. So, that's launched as an e-book now and in 10 days, 9 days, something like that, the print books start landing on people's doorsteps. Andrew: Nice. Aidan: It's overall just been weird. We're in one of the states that are... our governor has always taken this thing really seriously. So, we didn't get hit nearly as hard as most other places with the exception of some places on the reservation got hit really bad. So, we've been in lockdown way before a lot of places that didn't get hit as hard have been. We're now at the place that it's masks if you are outside of your home, period. So, I haven't really been on the bike for a while, because it is not fun to go riding around on that. We're super supportive of it. Because, it's just not being one of the people that is necessarily at as much risk as other people are, though... obviously, everybody can get it and can get messed up by it. You certainly don't want to be involved in spreading the shit. Andrew: For sure. Aidan: So, it's been crazy on that sense, but at the same time, we're homebodies anyway, and it's us at home with the animals. So, we've shifted a few things, but they've not been great. Not been huge for us. Then yeah, just doing book promo stuff and then launched the first episode of my podcast. But other than that, it's just been working on the book, working on getting the book out there, working on understanding InDesign. Andrew: It's not at all a small task to do a thing like that, right? Aidan: Yeah, it's interesting. I'm glad I know how to do it because it sets me up to do more. So, I'll be doing the e-book of Six Ways next and then I've already got part of the third book going. So, it's nice because it allows me to take the reins for that whole project now, but it is a lot of work. Keeping busy with that. Chickens, lots of chickens. Andrew: Yum, yum. I mean, wonderful. Aidan: I don't eat them but I yum yum for their eggs. Andrew: How about you Fabeku? Fabeku: Yes, same. It's been crazy, like everybody. I think the last time I left the house was end of February, maybe first couple days of March. Have not been out of the house since then. Like Aidan, I don't go out of the house much anyway. But, this many months has been a strange thing. Yeah, I've been busy with a ton of stuff too. I just finished a book with some writing and art and some shit like that, that's going to be published by Revelore in October. [inaudible], so that's a cool thing. It was weird for a while. The first few months, I had a hell of a time doing art. I could do some stuff for clients or collectors or whatever but my own stuff is just, "What the fuck am I doing?" It was awhile that I didn't do any art which is weird for me. So, finally, back at that which is good. I feel like that was sanity preserving kind of things. Yeah, excited about the book, excited about the couple of books after that, that I'm finally back in motion after stalling out for a while and just busy with a ton of people stuff and trying to help people manage this fuckery that is 2020 at this point. Yeah, it's been a pretty high bandwidth task moment. Yeah, I don't know. It's a strange time in so many ways. In so many ways. Andrew: Yeah, I feel like this hit, probably around the time we were doing the last episode, things were slow-ish for me, and I was just trying to figure out what was going on and all that kind of stuff. Then, just things got super busy between the store and client work and suddenly having two kids that I'm solo parenting half the time. Not in school, all that kind of stuff. All of a sudden, it's just, wow, I'm just working as a parent or working as my regular job continuously and all the time. That was just an intense run all the way through until, really, maybe two weeks ago or three weeks ago, when I... here in Toronto, things went pretty good. We had a lot of stuff going on, but we're down to maybe 20 new cases a day, maybe less. We've had some single digits and restaurants are open and a lot of stuff. Gyms are open, with social distancing, of course, but it hasn't brought about a big spike in anything. So, cautiously optimistic about it. Have been, and then, of course, the next big question is, school starts next month, and it's, what's going to go on with that and so on. Right? So, it's just trying to have a wrangle all that stuff with COVID. Then, I think, the other big thing that... this happened in this time since we last talked, right, was George Floyd's death. Right? Aidan: Absolutely. Andrew: The resurgence of what, really, should be a continuous thing of, how do we fix these racial divides and inequities and all this stuff. It's definitely a thing that's taken up a chunk of my attention as well in terms of trying to stay attentive to it, right. To not just drift back into day-to-day life, and whatever. Because, that's been the history of it, right? It erupts into the media and into our consciousness because there's some horrible thing that happens. Then, from a broader perspective, it dissipates, right? It doesn't build momentum. So, yeah, I would say I'm hopeful that it's going to change at this point. I have no idea, right. But, I think that there, definitely, felt like there's a different quality to what's been going on around that stuff, that I have some hope that it will make bigger changes. Yeah. Aidan: Yeah, that's been a huge thing too, obviously. And, it's interesting because it's even where you get stuff that's... I have folks in my family that still don't perceive what the issue is, you know? Which is weird to me on a personal level because I have, in my immediate, immediate-immediate family, people of color. So, you don't even want to take their word for what they're experiencing, even though they are technically your family, right? You're so set in your belief structure here that you can't see that or can't see the difference or the shifts between it. There's folks in my family that, again, have children that are children of color, that still don't see it. It's, really? How are you that unaware? How do you maintain that? That's what, I guess, I don't understand. I've never been able to maintain that. I didn't start with it, I think, and that's why. But, it's been good to see the attention. So, the reasons behind why it needs to be there are horrible, but yeah, I don't know. Then, for us in the US, to me, there's like an almost psychotic nature to the United States right now. Where the whole discourse is so stratified and so divisive and so peculiar in where people can and will go. It's really, you don't see that in yourself or you don't see that in the people that you're supporting? How do you pull that off? I just don't get it. Fabeku: Its been interesting for me, my mother is in her 80s and grew up in a little teeny tiny, literally, a shack in the hills of Kentucky. After George Floyd was killed, every single time I've talked to her, that's almost all she's talked about, and how she realizes, at this stage of the game, that she's spent 80 something years oblivious to this shit, and not paying attention and not listening to people, and having the privilege to not pay attention to it because it didn't affect her. And, she's trying to have conversations with her sisters and her brothers, almost all of whom are completely oblivious to it and entirely entrenched in, what's the big fucking deal, kind of thing. I It's interesting to me, the way it's shaken things, loosened her in a way that I've never seen before, right? It's not that we didn't have conversations about it before but, I don't know, I don't think she got it. As opposed to her sisters and brothers, will actively push against it. It was never that so much, it was just, well, yeah, that's really bad. But now, I mean, we have hours and hours of conversations of just, how the fuck have I not paid attention to this? How the fuck if I lived my entire life not understanding how, and completely, fucked things are for people that aren't white in this country? It's been an interesting thing to see. I think she's hopeful that her sisters and brothers will wake up and get it. I don't think they will. They're about as deeply entrenched in that kind of bullshit as it gets. But, yeah, it's been interesting to listen to my mother, of all people, have long conversations about this. When John Lewis passed, she was talking about, how did I never really pay attention to who this man was? How did I not know his life and his legacy and his history? Yeah, it's been an interesting come to Jesus moment, in some ways for her. Andrew: Mm-hmm (affirmative). It's funny, when I started this podcast many years ago, the first thing I did was a series of interviews on why some people change and why some people don't, right. I talked to people [inaudible] they're right there, the early episodes still existent. Should be on iTunes, and whatever I talk to. That time I was mostly tarot focused so I've talked to a bunch of tarot readers about it. It's, nobody's got an answer for that, right. I think that it's such a significant question now, right. Can we understand how to make change in society? I think that we're seeing a lot of stuff around that, that the answer is, maybe it doesn't. Maybe it can't be polite, maybe it can't be quiet, maybe it can't be whatever, right? Because, I see the things that make change, and the quiet, polite route is predominantly a route of quiet and polite with money and power behind it, right? You know? Aidan: Oh, yeah. You get to be very quiet and polite if you have lots of privilege. Andrew: Right? But also, thinking about the people who follow Stalking Skulls. They're our groupies, right? They are those people who are part of our magical communities, right? I think that it's such a... number one, if we want to work magic, we have to try our best to see the world as it is, right? That means, from my point of view, seeing racism and sexism, and all the different things that are going on, right, and engaging with that, right. I think that it's not that you can't do magic without being aware of lots of things, but I think that the more aware we are, the more it gives us capacity to see and make change both in ourselves, and depending on what's going on in the world too, or see where change might be able to happen. Aidan: Yeah, I think that it's very interesting on the magic side, because I agree with you totally. The more aware you are of how things are unfolding or how things can unfold or how things... for me, my own tendencies to, where will I not consider change? Because, there are places that I really don't want to do that, like quitting coffee, which I did. Andrew: What? Aidan: Because, my wife finally said, I don't think this is working well for you, even though you've been doing it for 40-something years so you should drop all of the caffeine. I, totally, entrenched for several hours and then went, Okay, I know that this is not good. I said, I need some space to go and think about this, and went, okay, let's examine myself and go, oh, yeah, this is typical junkie behavior. It's the same as any other addiction I've dealt with, so I'm not really down with that. So, something's got to change. But, if I didn't have the ability to go, okay, I'm being given information of everyone outside of me that I don't like. I've been given a suggestion that I don't like. Yes, this is an entirely personal and minor one, but if I can't actually go, okay, this is also from somebody that I believe is serious and has intelligence. So maybe, I should take some time and figure out why I don't want to hear it, let alone consider it. It's an interesting thing. I think that's critical in magic. I think it's critical in life, but we can get away with it without doing it. It's just not necessarily the best way, I don't think. Andrew: Yeah, I don't even know what else to say about this. I'm just, "Fuck!" I think that's part of what's tough about the racial issue. It's like, "Man." I think that there are plenty of places to go look up what you could do, right? You know I mean? Fabeku: Absolutely. Andrew: It's not that I [crosstalk] specific things or I'm not taking actions around it, right. But, I think that this moment where the scope of COVID, the scope of these issues is so big, so daunting, right? Yeah, it's [inaudible] this space where it's [inaudible], so big so much. It's, yeah, staring at that abyss, right, and know that it's staring back at you and then start walking into it, right. But, nonetheless, it's interesting. It's interesting times, for sure. Fabeku: Yeah. I think, for me, a lot of the magic, personally, has been aimed at either expanding or maintaining that capacity, right? Because, I think that one of the things that's easy to do when we're looking at something daunting, whether it's the racial issues or the virus stuff or personal, whatever it is, you just shut down, numb out, turn off. Obviously, I think, for the people that have the privilege to be able to do that, that's the thing a lot of people do. The reality is, there's a ton of people that never have that option, right? Because, they're so fucked, they just can't say, "Well, this is too big. I'm going to watch Netflix for a few hours and not give a fuck." I think that I've really been looking at that capacity thing. How do you expand the capacity enough to keep your eye on the abyss? To keep walking forward, to not tune out. To not say, well, somebody else will handle it, because, listen, we've done that shift for too long, and, obviously, it's failed in every possible fucking way. Yeah. Yeah, capacity seems to be a big thing right now. Andrew: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah, I think it's huge, right. I think that it's a piece that I learned mostly from you, right, actually. I had some very clumsy ideas around it, and your work clarified it. It gave me a real focus. It's, yeah, that's what I've been trying to get at, but I couldn't quite see it, right? I think that working to increase capacity, in whatever way you want to work on it, magically and otherwise, I think is crucial, right? I mean, in my parenting, there are definitely times when it's, all right, somebody, somewhere give me some more capacity right now because I am overwhelmed by this business. I think that working to call that in and expand that and stretch that and so on is super, super important, right? Aidan: It's interesting. I think, three days ago, we hit a place, my wife and I, where we went, Okay, we're not actually doing things the way that we know work well for us. So, how do we get that space back? Because, we lived in a cabin with no power or anything for a couple years, and we were really looking at that time, and going, there's a way that we were very well in that space. Anyway, as a result of this... this ties into your capacity thing for BQ, we decided that once we're both awake in the morning and ready to go, we turn on our cell phones, and we turn on the wifi, and we do, maybe, an hour of stuff that needs to happen through those tools. Then, we turn them all the way off, we turn off the wifi, we unplug the router, we turn off our cell phones all the way. We might have some stuff stored on our computer that we downloaded that we need to work on or whatever, but that's it for being connected. Then, usually, we'll do that again in the afternoon and try and be done with that by about six. This is sharing not... primarily, because it's been incredible for us for just these last few days. So, it's not as much as suggestion as something to think about if people are super overwhelmed, because the 24-hour cycle has become just crushing in a way right now. But, we had a weird day. The first day was really weird. Like, okay, well, what do you do if we're not streaming Netflix for the last three hours of the day? Well, then I'm playing guitar for the last three hours of the day. One of these things is good for me, one of these things is at best neutral, right. The same thing during the day, that the amount of time that we're actually spending talking and working on our plans and thinking about how we do stuff together, is huge. It's probably an 80% increase in the last few days. Instead of the magical overt side of building capacity, which, I'm with you, I learned from Fabeku. But, there's also the really base level of just going, can you step out of all of the noise and then check in to get what you need. It causes you to weed your sources out, figure out what do you need to see, what do you need to know, and if your time is limited to that and you're not going in and out of it all day, at least, for us, it's been an immense change that I don't see going back to that at all. It's, no, two hours of fucking net and cell phone access is more than planning for us. Everybody's going to be in a different situation. Fabeku: Yeah, this summer, my partner and I have been doing more leisure, and more, just, super-leisure. I've been lucky to be able to take a bit of time off and so on. So, we went to this place and it's a spa place and spent the second day there, literally, just either in the pool, on a lounger beside the pool or eating, having lunch or whatever. Yeah, no phone, no mess, no whatever. I didn't look at my phone, I think I looked at once through the, almost, two days that I was away. What actually needed to be responded to during that time? Not very much, right? I've been working on trying to institute more of this space, right? And, noticing, I like my movies and my TV, but also, I've been reminding myself that if I'm looking at my phone while I'm watching TV, something is wrong, right, for me? People do whatever makes you happy, right? But its, either the show's not interesting enough, or I'm not looking at something that I need to address or, whatever, in order to be present with the thing that I'm doing. I think that if something's not engrossing me enough that it's holding my attention, well, then what's going on with that, right? I think about, I've been doing a lot of rock climbing again, and when I go by myself and do boulder, I will, sometimes, keep my phone around and read things on my phone while I'm resting in between climbs because I'm just sitting there by myself. But, last night, I went with my friend who I go with every week, and I left my phone in my locker, which is not a thing I would have done, at some point. I would have brought it with me, I would have checked in every now and then and whatever. But, it's, what am I doing, I've got a person to talk to, I've got an activity that I'm engrossed in. Yeah. Aidan: Yeah, it's an interesting thing. Yeah, I had a place, I guess, it was about a month and a half ago which is interesting because, again, my life isn't that different, pandemic-wise than it is usually. But, I hit a place where I really couldn't get into any of the movies, any of the TV shows, anything. Even stuff that I like, wasn't happening. That moved me in that direction, and I shifted back towards reading more. Then, one of the weirdest things that we've had and I'm sure that there's lots of people that have studied things like EMF and all of that is, we live in a really quiet house because we're on a couple acres in a really quiet town. But, at the point that the phones are actually turned off and the computers are off and the wifi is off, it feels so quiet. In a way that even if the router is still on, it doesn't. Which makes sense, we know that these things are radiating stuff. But yeah, it's a crazy difference to go, "That's noticeable. That is really different", and then balancing that out from, we're all old enough to have not had these things. So you go, "How interesting is that? This is really the first big chunk of my life, probably, felt like this, and what did I do? I played music, I read books, I talked to the people who around me, I engaged in a very different way." It's not to say I want to throw all that stuff away, but, definitely, it's opened my eyes to finding its place, rather than just letting it find its place in my life, I want to be the one that decides what its place is. Andrew: Yeah, I think it's a really good way to put it, right? Aidan: Mm-hmm (affirmative)- Andrew: So, now we all need to do a group working to break the internet's hold on us. It's an exorcism of sorts. Aidan: I don't if we're the ones who need it from what I see. Andrew: Wow. Did you do any magic around quitting coffee or did you just stop? Aidan: No, my wife is our house apothecarist and herbalist so she treated it as a situation that could be dealt with herbs and using them in a homeopathic way. Not really using homeopathic medicines, but using some tinctures that she'd made. So, she's having me check-in with her every couple hours, "Tell me what's going on? How's your head? How's your... How's this, how's that?" Because, my tonsils were going off a little bit. I definitely detoxed like a crazy person for the first five days. That's always one of those signs. I had that same experience when we quit... when we went paleo, and we dropped all processed foods and all the grains and stuff. This is the total TMI, but you can absolutely tell how foul you are inside by how foul your poop is when you quit eating it. Your body goes, "Oh, you're not going to put more in, okay, well have this because we don't want it anymore." Andrew: Get rid of all of it. Aidan: Get rid of all of it, because oh, that's nasty. So, I think that now that my liver and all of that have had some time to back off away from the caffeine, things feel good, but I didn't have to do magic on this one. Andrew: Mm-hmm (affirmative). [inaudible], Fabeku, is giving up coffee in your future? Fabeku: You know, actually, yeah, I haven't had any caffeine since early May, I think? Andrew: Wow. Fabeku: Yeah, for me, I reached a point to, between some body stuff and just the chaos and the anxiety of the moment, I'm, "What fuck am I doing? What the fuck am I doing?" Because, I really think up until then, I was drinking either coffee or yerba mate, then I'd throw in some caffeine pills. I'm, "What the fuck am I doing? This makes no sense." Andrew: What are you, 16? Fabeku: Exactly. Acting like [inaudible] 7-Eleven to get [manodos] or whatever the fuck those things were. It was absurd. I think, for me... and this is what Aidan was talking about, about not doing things in a way that works. It was like, listen, if I'm structuring my life in a way that this makes sense, then something's wrong because this doesn't make any sense at all. If you're recreationally enjoying coffee, one thing. Chugging caffeine all day and then throwing a fistful of caffeine pills on top of it, it's, listen, something is sideways. So, yeah, for me, it's been, yeah, late April, early March, or early May, since I've had any caffeine at all. Aidan: Oh, very good. Fabeku: Yeah. Aidan: So, I could blame you, it was you, reaching out through the ethers, right? Fabeku: I want decaffeinated company. Andrew: Oh, boy. No, I feel so embarrassed about my coffee cup [inaudible]. Fabeku: [inaudible] on. Andrew: I actually know that it's not great for me. Well, it's part of a bad cycle for me, right? For me, coffee and being too busy, just go hand in hand, right? When I stop being too busy, then I stop hitting the coffee. It's just it rolls back. I remember when I moved into the last location where the fire was, I had quit coffee, I quit sugar, and I was just eating food, right? Making my own food most of the time, and I felt great. Then, I spent a month building a new shop. So, getting up as early as I could, doing construction, going to my old space, seeing clients, going to the new space, working until I felt like I might be a danger to myself, stopping, and I was just doing that. I did that every day for a month, right? Somewhere in there, one of the people who was helping was, "I've got to take a coffee break and go to Tim Hortons and get something." I was, "Yes, give me coffee." Right? Then, probably, a few days later it was, "Yeah, get me a donut, too." And, that it was that was it, right, because it was just an unreasonable time. Then, been sort of, on and off wrestling with it ever since, right? I think that this time actually... again, going into COVID, I was maybe drinking more coffee when I get up kind of thing, right? But now, I'm having three again and I'm, ah, it's not ideal, but also, this is hangover of the massive pace that I've been running on, and trying to... my life is slower, but I have that velocitization like I've been on the highway, right, where I feel like I've go faster than I do. So, I'm sure everybody's loving it right now, conversation about our caffeine habits. All right, it's official, Stacking Skills is anti-coffee. Stop it, it's bad for you. Just kidding, do what you want. There's a show called Beastmaster. You guys know that show? It's a super obstacle course kind of thing, right? If you like watching people with ridiculous physical capacities, to ridiculous challenges and climbing over things and swing from stuff, go check it. But, either way, it doesn't matter so much. But, I was noticing that all the people who were on it were working on themselves to get better, physically, and working on themselves as a person and working whatever. You see a lot of that in a lot of places, right. Certainly, if you're on the socials, you'll see that stuff a lot, right. I was, "Maybe, I'm done working to evolve. Maybe this idea of self-improvement is one that I should just jettison." What happens if I don't try and self-improve, but instead, just live and navigate? Right? Does that mean that I'm going to stop learning new things? Of course, it doesn't, right? Does it mean that I'm going to stop making changes in my life? No. But, if there's this narrative of improvement, or evolution or whatever around these kind of things, I feel like there's a real pitfall in that. I don't buy into too much, but a little every now and then I do. I'm, "It's okay to be done with that. Just be like, this is just my life. I'm just navigating my life now". Is it going to change? Yeah. Is it going to change radically over the next 10 years? Maybe. But, does it have to do with evolution or, that kind of stuff? The perpetual cycle of self-improvement and so on. I don't know that I want anything to do with that, in the way that I see it anyway. Aidan: I go off about this somewhere, recently, I think. It's probably in Weaving Fate, I don't know. Which is about the whole thing about optimal now, right? I think this is totally tied in there. It's optimal nutrition, optimal training, optimal study habits, optimal work habits. I think it doesn't serve anything. It's, well, that's great if you're already... if you're already on Beastmaster and you're trying to win, then yes, you need to be worried about optimization. But, if you're climbing rocks or lifting weights, because you enjoy it, or you think it makes you healthier, then optimization is probably not actually all that relevant to you. It's another marketed obsession. Andrew: But I feel like I see it in magic, too, right? Aidan: Mm-hmm (affirmative)- Andrew: A little while back, I posted something being, "Hey, everybody, don't forget, astrology is completely optional, right? You actually don't need to do anything with astrology to do magic." This isn't a criticism of this direction, right. But, the swing into grimoire magic and the resurgence of astrology as a prominent influence in spiritual and occult communities over the last five years, or whatever it's been. It's always been there, but it's really been ramping up, right, to be a thing that you see on the internet all the time. I think that there's this notion towards optimal and less around magic too, right. Well, I better make sure that this is the most astrologically auspicious moment that I have summoned the angels and the four governors, and the four kings and the [inaudible], and on and on and on, towards stuff. I think that there's a direct or indirect pressure from things moving in that direction that I think doesn't need to be a part of any of it, right. It's all really deeply optional. Yet, isn't presented as optional, right. There's a drive behind it. Because, one of the things that was really interesting in the comments on that post, right, was people... it's the internet, people want to share their opinions and stuff, which is great, and people jumping in and being, "Well, you're being influenced whether you know it or not. Whether, you're whatever." I'm, "But, are we? Are we really?" I don't know about that. I'm not sure that I believe that big, grand narrative behind all these different things, is universal. You know what I mean? Yeah. I've talked- Aidan: Yeah, I'm with you on that. It's an interesting one. Lonnie and I were talking about this a little bit. My take has been since I got what I thought was... I started getting respectable results from my magic, was to go really hard on those things. The things that are working, I want to get really good with. I think the term I used... it made Lonnie laugh because I said, "If sigils are your jam, be a savage sigil magician, right, and see if you need anything else. Because you may not." I think this is where I totally agree with that is, there's an amassing of classically, historically relevant information that is fabulous, if that's what you're into. But, there's some dude out in the bush somewhere in some country who is whatever, he's got the skull of some rodent, and a little fire made of twigs, and you don't want to fuck with that guy. He's never heard of any of this shit you're talking about? It is totally my take. I also think that if we look at it historically, that's the history of magic, except for the last equivalent of 10 minutes. So, people want to go, "Well, this is the thing." Yeah, for the last few hundred years, and that's a blip. That's, of course, my take. Take whatever you want. Fabeku: I was talking to somebody. I made some planetary magic talismans and turned out remarkably potent and effective. They were saying, "Oh, but, when you made them, this planet was doing this thing in the sky. So, the talismans should have been fucked. How did you make them and they worked?" I said, "Because, I don't give a fuck what the planets are doing in the sky. It doesn't matter." So, this idea that it's always an influence whether you know it or not, I'm with you, I don't know that that's true. At least, I don't know that it's a prominent enough influence to matter. I think a lot about currents, right? I think that for people immersed in a particular current, the effects or the shaping influence of that current is going to be stronger because you're immersed in it. I'm not saying there's no effect, but it seems to be less of a factor than somebody who is super centered in whatever current is, whether it's astrology or anything else, I think it's the same shit. I think there's this idea that you have to be immersed in a billion different currents and have your eye on them and line them all up in some kind of perfect Venn diagram of magic. That doesn't make any sense to me. One, I don't know if it's doable. Two, I don't know that it is actually necessary for most people. I think it's a weird thing. Going back to the self-improvement stuff, a conversation I had with a client last week, they showed up with all of the shit that they wanted to sort out this magical strategy for. As they were talking, my body started to tighten up. There was just this feeling of grinding and grinding and grinding and it was, "I don't know how to do this, and what to do about this." I said, "Listen, we can circle back to this in a second but"... It was all like, doing more. More money, more this, more that, which is, again, fine, there's nothing wrong with it. I've done a shitload of magic for more stuff, it's fine. But I said, "Have you considered doing magic for more joy, for more flow, for more peace, for more ease, for more creativity?" There was this long silence, and then they started to cry because they never considered that. They came with this To-Do List of, "Okay, help me figure out how to do these 10 things to do more, to optimize, to improve.? I said, "Cool, do that. But, what if you also had more joy in your life, and that was the focus? Especially now as fucked as everything is." I agree, I think that's this weird trap that we get into with the self-improvement stuff. It's just another version of grinding. It's just another version of never being enough. Never having enough, not pushing hard enough. Again, I think in this global moment of all moments, fuck. Let's look at some shit that's not that, let's look at some shit that is ease and peace and coherence and whatever the fuck it is. Because again, I'm going back to the capacity stuff, at some point, you can't expand capacity infinitely enough to just keep grinding on every possible fucking front. It's just not doable. Yeah, I think it's super easy to fall into that shit with magic and everything else. But yeah, it's a mess. Andrew: So I want to circle back to something you said, and then come back to this as well because I want to talk about both. But, I think that, I [inaudible] this way. There was this big push to go back to, is there a singular truth, right? We can't deny that influence of Greek thought and other thought on our culture, right? You know what I mean? If we can go back to those philosophers and see the origin of stuff and see the origin of Western magic, going back to some of that stuff, in certain ways, right? That's cool and dandy and all, right. I think that if we look at the astrologies or other systems, I think that they're holistic models of everything, right, which is amazing. I think that having, and participating in, a holistic model of the universe, magically speaking, is a powerful thing to be engaged with. I think that the thing is that in Kumi, right, Orisha tradition, it's a holistic model of the universe that has no relationship to planets at all. So, if both are describing something, and they're both describing it accurately within their holistic model, it doesn't mean that anything crosses over from those, and whatever that actual experience of the universe or... whatever's going on that we're engaging through one of these models, it's all accounted for in one way or another, right? Aidan: Mm-hmm (affirmative)- Andrew: And, it's not necessarily to say that we could equate, well, Egon said you were having this problem right now, ancestors say you're having this problem right now through divination, astrology says you're having this problem because of whatever, this hard planetary placement in your family situation or whatever, but those things aren't the same. Right? They don't have the same meaning. They don't have the same lived experience. They certainly have very different solutions and approaches, right. I think that this notion, which to some extent goes back to the Greeks and people who are smarter than me about philosophy might trace it further, that there's this true universal core that we can participate in through our intellectual perception. Then, you compound that with, basically, the Victorian era magicians, Golden Dawn, Crowley. All those people who are like, everything is interwoven. Right? Everything is the same and symbolically resonant with each other at some level. I think it's an extension of colonialism and of that Victorian worldview to continue that process. Somebody sent me a list of [inaudible] and how they line up on the tree of life and they're, "What do you think? I'm, "I think this is colonial crap. I think it's not helpful. I think it's completely meaningless and disrespectful to this other completely coherent and self-reliant worldview." It's not to say that there aren't philosophical things or similarities that we could talk about the crossover those things, but I think that the minute that we start to say that one is inherently true, or that those bridges are inherently true, I think that we start to get into very dicey waters, and probably we're wrong. Does that make sense? Aidan: Yeah, totally. This came up recently in the Six Ways group, that somebody was saying that their background is in Western magical Kabbalah. Andrew: Yeah. Aidan: They were, "I'm having trouble mapping this kind of elements, middle world, world above, world below to that map." It's, because they're not talking about same thing. You can find somebody, I'm sure, who can give you something that says that this is, but if we look at it, the model that I'm using is rooted on, what would now be considered, very primitive people's viewpoints of the world. This was not folks who were trying to work out mathematics of language in the written word, this is a totally different thing. They were just looking at, what do we see and what do we interact with, and what is that thing? It's not a map of something that you fit everything into? It's not a tool to categorize. It's, these are places you can interact with, or beings you can interact with that dwell in those places. In that sense, it's, yes, it's a metaphorical model, but it's not trying to be a universal model. It's, if you want to know what the underworld is, go there and learn that thing. You're not going to be able to map enough information on top of that lack of experience to make up for that experience, right? It's, again, it's nothing against any of the systems, it's just realizing that they are not all the same. Like you said, with the Orisha tradition and the tree of life, they're not the same thing. They're not intended to do the same things. They're not experiential tellings of the same event, however you want to view it. I think it's a very interesting thing. I wanted to also tap into what Fabeku said because I'm also a total current guy. So, I'm going to do the work when I need to do the work, and when the allies are on board with it. That may be related to what's going on in the heavens, I don't know, but I'm certainly not going to start work based on what I think that is according to what somebody tells me is going on astrologically if the allies aren't going, "This is a good time to do that." But, if they'll say, hey, it's a go, and everybody else is, it's total shit city, it's, I don't care what you're seeing because my people say, it's a go and maybe we need to do this thing in total shit city. Again, what does that have to do with optimal. Sometimes it's shit city and you've still got to work. Fabeku: It's the title of your third book, Shit City. Aidan: Shit City. No, at least the subtitle. Fabeku: I totally get what you're talking about, Andrew, with the colonialism kind of thing, right? Because, I remember having a conversation with somebody, I was talking about was Oshun, the Orisha, and they were saying, "Oh, yeah, I totally get it because I've worked with Venus for however long. I'm, "What the fuck does that have to do with what I just said? I'm not talking about Venus, I'm talking about Oshun." They said, "It's the same thing." I said, "It's not the same fucking thing. It's not the same thing. They're entirely different." Are there places that, like you said, might crossover or ping a little bit? Sure, But, it's not the same thing. It's weird to me that we apply it with shit like this, but we don't say, well, this river is the same as that river or that ocean is the same as that creek, or a rose is the same as an orchid. It's not the fucking same. Sure, they both have roots, they grow in soil, they're flowers, so they're similar in that way. But beyond that, it's not the same shit, right. I think, at best, it's sloppy thinking, at worst, it's all sorts of other shit, when we start pretending that this is that, is that, is that, and it's all different names for the same shit. I don't think that's true. I think it's it's lazy thinking, right, because it's convenient to say, Oh, well, no, I know Oshun because I know Venus, so I know Aphrodite. So, but that's not real. I think then when we do that, we miss the nuance, we miss the capacity to build a relationship that's coherent with whatever we're building a relationship with. Because, that would be like me saying, well, Andrew and Aidan are the same. No, you're not. Andrew: [inaudible] start with A. [crosstalk]- Fabeku: Exactly, right. Aidan: We wear glasses and we have tattoos. All the evidence is there. Fabeku: For sure. We don't do that in this way, but we do it with magic. I think it's a total failure of perception, and logic and relationship and understanding and nuance, and I'm just unconvinced that it works. Andrew: Well, I think, as animism has resurfaced as a world model in certain pockets of the occult communities, I think that people are starting to understand that all of these plants are people, right. All of these stones and places, that they are their own things. I think that we haven't extended that to spirits, right? To say that, does Oshun have their own concrete specific existence, right? Sure. Beyond that, even, Fabeku's Oshun has its own concrete, specific, singular, individual manifestation that's different than my Oshun. Right? Not just because, maybe, our paths are different, or maybe this or that or who it came from, no, it's own distinct, separate living entity that is not the same as all the rest of them and there are relationships and, within religion, there are those, well, they're all Oshuns. But you know, Eleggua versus [inaudible] versus whatever, they're all different. The priests who have those Orisha's, each of those Oshuns has their own character, right, because they're their own people. Right. I think it's a place where the magical community... I'm going to be curious to see if there is a point at which people stop doing this and start really holding that devotion to Kali or to whoever without any sense of crossover, and, so on. I think it'll be very interesting to see what comes of it, if anything. Fabeku: I think even beyond spirits... spirits in the usual sense, if we go to plants as people, you and I can talk about our experiences with rose or with sunflower or with gardenia or with mandrake. I'm willing to bet that your experience with rose is different than mine. Maybe they overlap in places, but there's nuances, there's differences, right? Just like two different people that know you are going to experience you in different ways. It's the same thing, which is where I think the common logic of, okay, well, what does rose do, what does rose quartz do, what is amethyst? I don't know, what the fuck does it do for you? I can talk about what it does for me and that might have nothing at all to do with your relationship with it. that might have nothing to do with whether that stone person or plant person will work magic with you, the type of magic that it works, how well you get on with that particular spirit. That's the thing. I was just talking about this yesterday when I was teaching, there's a worldview problem, right, because we think that what does rose do, is a real question. It's not really a real question. But, we keep answering it, and so we're perpetuating the idea that it's a real question, but I don't think in practice it is. Andrew: Yeah, I think it's true, plants, in the same way it's true of Orisha, within the traditional context, within traditional context of their religion, we don't say, "Oh, you've got a problem with work, who's the Orisha of work who's going to fix this thing for you, right?" We say, "You have a problem with work, will anybody come forward to fix this for you?" Maybe, it's an Orisha that we associate with work, like Ogun. Or maybe, Obatala is, "I've got you, brother, don't worry. You're covered. Give me this and we'll be good." The answer's to those are super nuanced by divination, by Odu, by story, by knowledge of Ebo, like, offerings, and so many things that are impossible from the outside. Those kinds of ways of working, only, can exist within the traditional context, I think. In the same way, burdock is a really close friend of mine. Me and burdock, we're tight. And, the things that burdock and I have had conversations and done, have nothing to do with traditional associations, but it is also a source of power that can be applied in many directions, if the spirit of the plant is amenable, right? It's, yeah, maybe spearmint would be better at getting you some luck right now. It's a more traditional association, right? "But, you know what, I'm going to work a little extra hard, because it's not my area of expertise, but I'm still going to make it happen for you." Problem solved, right. Fabeku: Well, I think the other super relevant point of what you said is that, not only is that the way to do it, but it's an individual thing. So, all three of us could have problems with work, all three of us could sit in Divine and get entirely different solutions to how to fix the work shit, even if the works shit looks the same. Right? So, one of the things that happens a lot when I'll do some divination in a private space of mine, when I post them, I get the question... It's not a criticism of anybody that asked the question, but I'll answer somebody's question... usually I'll include some magical stuff to do, and, inevitably, people will say, "Oh"... Well, let's say somebody's asking about a relationship thing and then we talk about whatever the solution is, inevitably, somebody will come along and say, "Oh, is this a thing that anybody can do for relationship stuff?" No, it's not. Listen, I don't know, maybe it works. Maybe it doesn't. But, this was a specific solution given to a specific person with a specific problem based on these cards that were pulled. It's not, here's the cure-all for everybody with a relationship problem. It's one conversation, one relationship in this moment. Again, to me, that's the way that this shit really works. But, if we try to turn that into, oh, well, this thing will do the same shit for everybody having a relationship thing. I don't think that's real. I think if it does work, I think we've gotten lucky. But, I don't think that's an indicator that it's some universal solution. I get it- Andrew: [crosstalk], you can be the same solution for the same person down the road- Fabeku: Exactly- Andrew: On the same spot, right? Fabeku: Right. It is a very specific solution to that person, with this thing, with me, in this conversation, in this moment. Aidan: Absolutely. Yeah. That's, I think, the thing that I hit on a lot with people, and even with people with Six Ways that have got that, we'll be trying to figure out, "I'm now working on this, but I haven't got here yet, and I feel bad that I haven't got here yet." I'm, "Don't do that. Just find a way in. That's the whole idea here, is find a way into anything that works for you, and see where you can go with it." Because, that's where you get that depth. Then, you go, "Oh, yeah." I've got people saying I need to talk to the goats or I need to talk to some deity and or I need to get right with... to do some stuff to remediate some astrological influences, but maybe you can do all of the things that you need to do with your allies that you don't even know their names, that you just make offerings to and that's your only relationship, and all that you might have to do, is to go in and go, "This is hard, I need help with this or I would like to more capacity for joy in this because I feel really just fucked up by what's going on", right. For everybody that I know that figures this piece out, they're really good magicians, with the work that they do works for them, and that doesn't have anything to do. Some of them know everything about everything, and some of them know nothing, essentially, from that other person's point of view. So, it is, it's about current, it's about relationship, it's about that reality of context. So, that, yeah, you and I could both be having trouble getting our point of view across to our partners, and it could have, on the surface, in the way we describe it, in the way we describe that it feels, it can all seem exactly the same, and it could be totally not the same. I think this is going on constantly. It has to, right? But, magic tends to go, here's the formula to fix this. I've not really ever seen that to be true. It was, realizing, oh, if I'm just playing within the structure of, what Jason called zone rights... So this was, for me, LBR star ruby-based stuff, just as the shape of the operation, not using those words forever, but I figured out I could do all of the various operations that I read about in the magical books using these, even without learning all the different pentagrams. I wasn't doing that, I was doing incredibly basic versions of it. It's, no, I can connect to the powers and the quarters and the above and below and then put forward that I want help healing this or help this person out in their relationship, right, because I was building relationship with my allies and with that current. So, yeah, great. So, Hermanubis is the one who does that. I don't know that guy, why would I go there? I've people saying, "Yeah, we got it." It's, I don't know if they are the ones who do that. They say they are and I have faith in them, so I'll go that route. Fabeku: Yeah, maybe it's time for faith to make a comeback. How about that? [crosstalk]. What would that look like in the magical world, right? Aidan: Man. What is faith if you don't have religion? Fabeku: Good question. Aidan: What is your faith in? Fabeku: Uh-huh (affirmative)- Aidan: Or rather, what is your faith for, which might be the better question. Andrew: Really, the only answer to that should be, everybody's face should be in Stacking Skulls. In Stacking Skulls we trust. Stack them 23 high, and you're good. Everything [crosstalk]. The world will unlock, [crosstalk] will open. Aidan: Once the stack gets taller than you, while you're standing up, things get better. Andrew: Right. Back to my mind, we went on this lovely detour into things and I'm still, all right, but, what the hell? What the hell, universe? What the hell, 2020? What the hell is going to go on? Does anybody find feel like they're doing stuff or needing to do stuff? Maybe this is just a reiteration of the capacity conversation, but to just manage themselves through this time. You know? Aidan: I definitely have some of that. Again, we talked about that earlier for me, backing off of the internet and connectivity and just going, Oh, yeah, I really like fooling around on the guitar for hours. I like talking to my wife for hours. Then, being really aware. In our house, we have this saying that, that the end of the world is happening all the time. But, sometimes it's very obvious for the people that it's happening in because it's clearly catastrophic, right. But, it's happening. It's ending, it's reforming, it's changing. I think, right now, is a really interesting moment because it's so clear that it's changing in a really huge way for a lot of people. I don't think, we, in America... using the US term of America, which is totally wrong, but I'm going to do it here, because that's the language that's most appropriate here in America... I don't think all of this stuff has piled in on each other simultaneously in such an obvious and unrelenting way. So, it is. It seems clear to me that we're in a really major crisis point, at least in North America, which is what I can see in the United States primarily. It is an interesting thing, because if I look forward or in backwards, I can see the roots of the moment we're in, I can see logical outcomes, I can see outcomes that I would prefer, I can see the potential backlashes to the outcomes that I would prefer, right. That's, I think, what's really interesting to me, is, I see, because we're in this election cycle and because things have been so insane politically here... I hope that people aren't assuming that if we have a change in the presidency, that that will fix what's going on. Because, we've had a whole lot of changes in the presidencies and they have not fixed what's going on. Andrew: Yeah. Aidan: So, yes, I would think that that would be a step in the right direction, for sure, but then you got to step on the gas at that point, if you want to see a lasting and real change. That's step one. Andrew: Yeah, for sure, right. Because, if there's a change in the presidency, that's great. But, that doesn't automatically change the system, and that systemic piece of stuff. The piece that is [inaudible]. Yeah. I've been going back to an old mantra of mine, which I've adapted slightly for this situation. It goes like this, other people's urgency doesn't need to be my urgency. I think that because there's so much going on right now, there are a lot of people who have a lot of urgency around stuff, right. I remember, when my first godfather always used to say... because he ran a store and was a really well-known psychic in the Detroit area, and he used to say, "Look, if it's an emergency, you call 911. Otherwise, you can make an appointment and come see me whenever you can come and see." I've been working to not act with urgency, because I think that when stuff is as wonky and strange as it is, consideration and pacing and time and respecting capacity, and all those kinds of things, is super helpful, super important, I think. So, it's really, well, that's cool and all, but I'm not going to run around for this, I'm not going to run around for whatever. With my kids too, it's, is there an actual emergency, or is there some discomfort that maybe I'ma let you sit with for a bit so you can learn how to sit with discomfort instead of jumping into things, right? It's an imperfect science, for sure. Right? It's just a general approach. But, I think that, yeah, that, I can't run around on this. I can't make myself do whatever. I can just do what I can do and I'm going to own my own directive around that, right. Sometimes I might be looking at something like, yeah, that is really urgent, I should jump on that. I should push myself to do that, even though I know there'll be a falling for it someway. But, yeah, that's been my thing. Fabeku: I think, for me, it's been, because the clients stuff has been super busy, I've had to figure out a way beyond what I did previous to this, too, to not absorb that high-level, constant anxiety, angst, panic, fear, whatever it is, because, after a few weeks of that shit when all this stuff really ramped up, I just felt like I'd been through the blender. It's, okay, well, this is not ending anytime soon, and I'm happy to support people, and this can't be the way it goes. This can't be the way it goes. I think that's probably been the biggest piece, for me, was figuring out how to keep how to keep that capacity, but also how to not end up, at the end of the day or the end of the week, feeling like I've just been taken apart with this stuff. So, part of that has been magical practice, part of that has been mundane stuff, part of it has just been, okay, realistically, given this intensity, this is how many times a week I can have conversations with people that are really difficult and adjusting accordingly. Like you said, in some ways, not giving in to that, okay, but there's more people. There's 10 spots and 30 people, so let me figure out how to get 30 spots. That's not the answer, because then we end up back with coffee all day, caffeine pills, nonsense shit, right. So, it really is like, this is what I can do and do it well, do it effectively, and also not be dismantled at the end of this, and it is what it is. That's it. There's no more space, there's no more bandwidth. There's no more room to fuck around with a calendar. Andrew: Hmm, yeah. Aidan: I think that that thing too, which is what you brought on, the realizing where you've got to back down, or ramp things down, is really important, because there is so much out there, just saying, no, just go harder. Grind. There's times for that, but all of them all of them are not that time. Andrew: For sure. By where I go climbing... it's probably not surprising, it's an industrial building and there's some CrossFit type stuff in there, right? One of them has something painted on their garage door to their space. I think it says, "Somebody with less time than you is working out right now." I'm, that's cool. Good, for fuckin' [inaudible]. You know what I mean? A couple years ago, I shifted my climbing goals to be, still be climbing at the end of the year. That's my climbing goal, right. I have some very loose... I'd like to be able to consistently climb 5.8, 5.9. I'd like to be able to cycle 40 kilometers, 50 kilometers anytime. There's some very loose things that are indicators to me that I'm spending enough time being active to be able to continue being active, and that I believe that those things are good for me. Not in and of themselves, because they're indicators of a broader attention to my health, right. Am I ever going to climb super higher levels than I'm climbing right now, I have no idea. Maybe, probably not. Does it matter? It doesn't matter. Am I always going to be able to cycle as far as I can cycle today? I'm doing a lot of distance cycling. Nah, probably not. There'll be times where I'm, I can't cycle that far right now. It doesn't matter. You know? Just keep showing up. Keep showing up. Keep doing the stuff to rest and recharge to show up. Aidan: Yep, absolutely. I've definitely had to make adaptations on all of that stuff just because I'm getting smart enough to go, oh, this isn't really doing what I want it to do. So, instead of more, what does less do? I'm working out about half as much as I used to, and it's working better because my body can recover from that better. Interesting, okay. Andrew: It makes sense, right? It makes sense. Well, maybe, we'll wrap it up here. I assume everybody knows where everybody is, but just in case, Aidan, where do people find you? Aidan: You can find me at aidanwachter.com and as Aidan Wachter on Twitter, Instagram and Facebook, whatever that other one is. Andrew: What's the name of your podcast, that people search? Aidan: My podcast is called Aidan Wachter Six Ways. It's up on Google, Stitcher, Apple, and someone else... I can't think who the other one is right now, but it's generally out there in the main places. Andrew: I hear it gets heavy rotation in the underworld, so you can just go there and listen to it. Aidan: Exactly, you can find it down there. Yeah, you can get my books at all the major retailers. Andrew: Fabeku? Fabeku: Fabeku.com, Facebook, and, yeah, the book will be out in October with Revelore. Andrew: It's exciting. Aidan: I'm stoked about that. Fabeku: Hmm, me too. Andrew: Yeah, and, obviously, I'm the Hermit's Lamp everywhere. Podcast is the Hermit's Lamp Podcast everywhere. I didn't talk about it, really, in this, but I'll throw it out here at the end. I'm going to be launching a Kickstarter for my next Oracle deck, which has the title of the Bacon Wizard Breakfast Oracle. So, if you like food and you like divination, I can certainly... I was going to launch it, actually, back in March. My original timeline was end of March, Kickstarter, but obviously didn't do that. But, it's going to be end of September, early October, Kickstarter for that, and you can check it out on my website and other places as I'm building up to that. So, all right. Thanks, folks. Have a great rest of your day. Aidan: Thanks for having us. Andrew: Oh, my pleasure.
Luke and Susie are both big fans of the Channel 9 series, Lego Masters and the contestants Damian and Andrew have been a favourite in our household! On this podcast we'll chat to Damian about his experiences on the show and what it was like behind the scenes... About Damian and Andrew For best friends and LEGO® lovers Damian, 43, and Andrew, 49, LEGO MASTERS could not have been a more fitting competition to take part in — they're two big kids who are extremely strategic with their builds. Andrew and Damian love to discuss every little detail before embarking on their creations. They love being able to put their creative minds together to design new builds. Although he can find multi-tasking difficult, Damian is determined to be working to the best of his ability, taking advantage of his eye for detail and desire to have a job well done. A lifelong LEGO builder, Damian's earliest memories revolve around what has become a lot more than just a hobby. The bricks have been his favourite toy since he was six years old, and he remembers some of his treasured sets including a mechanic's workshop, a snack bar and a roadworks digger. Damian's biggest build is a medieval display that takes up more than three tables. It features two castles, a village and a harbour. He says: "Building with LEGO transports me to another place where time stands still. I can get lost in the creative process for hours."
The Hermit's Lamp Podcast - A place for witches, hermits, mystics, healers, and seekers
The gang get back together in their secret underground bunker to talk about what is new in their journeys. Andrew, Aidan, and Fabeku talk about the future of witchcraft, magic, grimoires, and how to best powder a scorpion. In a rarer moment they talk about their businesses and how they find their way forward through changing desires and capacities around working. They also recorded a bonus for the Patreon only about how to connect with plants and build a magical relationship with them. You can get it here by becoming a supporter. Aidan can be found here. Fabeku hangs here. As always Andrew is here. If you want more of this in your life you can subscribe by RSS , iTunes, Stitcher, or email. Thanks for joining the conversation. Please share the podcast to help us grow and change the world. Andrew You can book time with Andrew through his site here. Transcription Andrew: Hey everybody. Welcome to another episode of The Hermit's Lamp podcast. I am hanging out today with Stacking Skulls, which would be my buddies, Fabeku and Aidan. We have taken submarine to our secret underground bunker. We have concocted all sorts of beverages to prop us up for this from weird poisons from some lizards and reptiles and obscure sea fish. And we have found the long lost grimmer of the monkey safe nests, which we have properly venerated before we're going to start here. Aidan: I [inaudible 00:00:42]. Andrew: Welcome to the podcast. This is a fairly regular thing that we've been doing for a while with different guests as well as one last founding member, John. And today we're getting together for the first time in quite a while, just the three of us to catch up and talk about stuff that's going on. So I'm going to skip the introductions. Andrew: If people don't know who we are, well, go back and listen to one of the other episodes. But what's going on? What's new? What's happening? What's changed? We recorded last, I would say it was just after the fire, so I think that was early, middle of summer, somewhere around there. It was the last time we talked, which is about six months ago. So this is recording. Aidan: Well, other than rating Monkey Island for the [inaudible 00:01:38], it's all been smoking scorpions, but it's just been … it's good. It's been crazy times. End of the year is always crazy. Fabeku: Awesome. Aidan: I'm married to an accountant who's also somewhat clairvoyant. So there's this combination of stuff that begins before the end of the year that is … we are kind of shifting a full year ahead or two years out. So we run on a two-year plan at this point. And so it's just working that stuff out and deciding what the focuses are going to be for that time period as best as we can, knowing that things change. Aidan: But what are the targets? What are the time frames? Can we plan that enough that we can plan in some downtime? And then for me, it's kind of backing away from the jewelry work for a while to focus on teaching and writing. So that's the big one for me. Andrew: How's the preparation for teaching going? I mean, I've seen some on social media, but what's that like for you? Aidan: It's been pretty crazy because I decided that I really wanted audio. Video was too cumbersome to try and share, I thought, and I wanted people to be able to listen to it in different places where they didn't necessarily have rock-solid internet. And so it was a weird process. Aidan: So I started recording before I was ready, which was good, so that broke me in a little bit, but it's a different way of transmitting. And so it's been very interesting figuring that out. But I like what's coming along and the allies like what's coming along. And they got, as usual with projects, way, way, way more involved than I somehow expect, so there's a lot of that shaping influence in there that is how do I work in. Aidan: “Okay. Since you're only going to give me a quarter of the curriculum, how do I make it? Either give it all to me or stay out,” is what I would like to say in some ways. But it is good, but it is okay, so if that's taken over these two sections of the class, what else are we going to run in a limited timeframe. But it's fun. It's been very fun. Andrew: It's awesome. Yeah. I really did teaching a lot. I think … I mean, I know Fabeku does too, right? Aidan: Yeah, for sure. Andrew: Yeah. How about you? What's going on with you, Fabeku? Fabeku: Let's see. Yes. End of year, I pretended that I was taking December off and then had the busiest December I've had in any year. So not so much of a break, but it was mostly busy with good stuff, which was good. Fabeku: Yeah. I mean, kind of similar to Aidan, looking at the next couple of years and figuring out what it looks like and what I want to do more of and what I want to do less of and definitely continuing to shift more and more to the teaching, the writing, the arts, a lot of art. That's my question at this point. Fabeku: How do I do more arts is the big $64,000 question. And this might be the year that I actually do a website for the arts, maybe. I've resisted that for years for all kinds of reasons, but yeah. So that might be a thing. But- Andrew: Given you haven't updated your website since 1842, I'm not sure- Fabeku: Right. Exactly. Andrew: … I'm not sure I believe you at that point. Fabeku: Yeah, that's the running joke. I've got the out-of-date website on the planet. Yeah, that's the truth. Yeah. So just tons of art stuff, which has been good. I carved out some more time in the schedule this year to finish the book projects that I stalled at the end of the year between busy-ness and health stuff and I needed to get a new laptop and some other shifts. Fabeku: But yeah, so I'm excited about that and just looking forward to, like said, more teaching, more art. Aidan: How are you doing Andrew? What do you got going on? I know that you've got the shop open in your space, so how's that going? Andrew: So much is going on right now. So much is going on. I actually took 10 days off over the holidays, which is the first holiday that I've had in forever where I didn't go anywhere or really do anything. I checked a few emails, but that was about it. And I took a bath every day, took a nap every day, really just tried to sink into that. Andrew: I read a bunch and stuff like that. And I went from feeling exhausted from having reopened the store and rubbed my life through the fall to just feeling tired. So I feel like that's a major way, right? Fabeku: For sure. Andrew: The store is going good. It's reopened in a different neighborhood and I'm still wrangling with that. A lot of the same clients of course, but lots of different people. One of the things that's been sort of challenging me about it lately is trying to account for theft as part of the process. Right? Andrew: And it's just like it's almost every retailer tells me and knows it's just a part of the deal. But in the old location, the combination of the size of the store and its location really minimized that stuff, whereas now, it's definitely a thing that I'm paying a lot of attention to. And I feel a bit like it's kind of a metaphor. Andrew: I mean, it's obviously a literal problem, but I'm viewing it a bit metaphorically for how I'm doing that longer-term planning that both of you guys are talking about. Right? I don't want to be tired. I don't want to get back to being exhausted. I don't want to feel like I'm endlessly running around from thing to thing and I can't get ahead of the Arkin and so on. Andrew: And so really, looking at what's making sense in terms of my energy and my attention, I absolutely love having the studio. I have this private studio space, which is beautiful. It's like 300-square feet. It's got a lovely set facing window and high ceilings and it's a five-minute walk from my house. Andrew: So basically, I have no excuse to not come and paints and draw and come see clients here and so on. It's just really welcoming and lovely. And just looking at where are those things that are stealing my energy, that are stealing my attention? Where are those things where I'm not enthused to show a [inaudible 00:08:46] them and where are those things or what's getting in the way of the things that I'm saying I'm going to be doing, like painting every day or whatever. Andrew: What's actually interfering with that and what can I do to adjust that? Where do I make that space emotionally more than any other way? Because practically, the time is there, but emotionally, it's not always there to continue to work on my next book, to wrap up this bacon wizard breakfast Oracle that I'm working on, all those things, right? They all have a drag on them from the tensions in the system. Andrew: And I was talking before we got on the line here about how I rolled back my coffee consumption from ridiculous levels of caffeine and sugar to a manageable level. And I don't want to go back into that space where it's overdrive and you're always pushing, pushing, pushing. It's not the kind of space I want to be living in, so I'm just being really mindful of what I'm doing with my time and where I'm putting my energy and what are the actual returns. Andrew: I mean, certainly financial but also emotionally and I don't know their levels because sometimes there's those things that seem like a great idea, but the returns are not what you thought you would get from them in the end. Right? And they ended up being, well, to be honest, a fucking hassle. It's like, “Man, why did I do this? How do I learn not to do stuff like this again?” Fabeku: I've thought so much about this in the last couple of years. I mean, in part, because the physical stuff has changed my bandwidth in a lot of ways. But I mean, I would say up until about a year, a year and a half ago with the business stuff, I was at a point where I was constantly booked nine to 12 months out. The calendar was not just full, it was kind of overcapacity in a lot of ways. Fabeku: And it's interesting because I think to a lot of people, that looked like success. I mean, every spot filled, booked forever and ever and ever, lots of money. And it was fine until it wasn't. And then when I started to deal with some of this body stuff and would have to shift stuff around in the schedule, I'm like, “This is fucking impossible.” I've got a 12-month calendar. Fabeku: How the fuck do I move these people around without causing some ridiculous cascade that goes for three months and then all of a sudden, this thing that I really worked hard to accomplish and make happen, it's like, “No, I hate this. I can't do this. I don't want to do this anymore.” Fabeku: And really taking a lot of steps in the last couple of years to just … I think for me, it was about redefining, like you said, what's important, what the returns are, what makes sense, what success looks like. And just deciding that, “Yeah, I don't want a calendar that's booked 12 months out. I don't want to do that anymore. I don't want to be scheduled every single slot of the day as sometimes I'd like to sleep in or I'd like to spend the morning painting or whatever it is.” Fabeku: And that's been a big thing and I think in some ways, like I said, I've had to do it because of some of the physical stuff, but … And in some ways, it's been one of the best things because it really required me to take a way more conscious look at, “What are you doing? Why are you doing it? And does this actually make sense? Is this the shit you want to do?” Fabeku: And all of a sudden, I looked down and it's like, “Oh no, I don't want to do this. I don't want to do this and I want to do way less of this and way more of these three or four things.” And I think that's been so much of what the last, especially a year and a half, for me has been. It's just been remixing all of it and redistributing the weight to what I'm doing and why I'm doing this. It's been a big deal. Andrew: Yeah. Yeah. I made a change when I opened the studio, coming back from the fire that I only open a month ahead of time, like a week before the end of the month usually because I realized that otherwise, you end up with these commitments further afield than you can wrangle, right? Or that aren't easy to wrangle. Andrew: And I think that one of the values to me, and I think for you too, is this ostensible freedom with being an independent person. But it's very easy to lose any actual access to that freedom of schedule, right? Aidan: Yes. Yes. Andrew: To be like, “Oh, can I do whatever?” It's like, “Oh, well. No, I can't. I have a day full of clients and I can't easily move that.” And instead, just setting up those things so that there's a limit and … Yeah, it's great being booked ahead for sure, but I don't want to be booked six weeks ahead. Andrew: I want to be two weeks ahead and then be deciding what my next month looks like depending on opportunities and other things that are going on and all that kind of stuff. Fabeku: Yeah. For me, it drove the point home when a friend of mine who lives in Florida, she wanted to come in for a visit and she said, “Well, when are you free?” And I looked at the calendar and I'm like, “10 months from now.” What the fuck is this? It doesn't make any sense. And you're right. It's that kind of thing. Fabeku: And all of a sudden, I felt like … and it's not that, I'm not saying it's the same thing, but I felt like the person that's working for somebody else that had already used their vacation time and then wasn't going to be free until next year. It's like, “This doesn't make sense. This isn't the life that I want to live at this point.” Fabeku: And for years, it was fine. I loved it and enjoyed it and it was … I thrived in that environment. But I think that's for me, why I continue to look at this coherence as a process thing as opposed to some destination. It just stopped being coherent and I'm glad that all of us have the freedom to reshuffle the deck as we need to. Aidan: Yeah. I think, I mean, it sounds like we're all very much in the same place because that's what I got hit with the jewelry, is I went from the people who buy it at whatever rate they buy it and then I build according to what they bought and then custom work in there. And I dropped that and went to like, “I'll just offer collections and see how that goes.” Aidan: And what I found was those were fine ways to actually generate enough money for us to get by. The time that it takes for me to do what I like in that or what I want to do in that process is so immense that even when I wasn't booked forward, even when I was building the collections, it's still like, “No. I need all day, way too many days out of a month to dedicate to this,” which is on one level, fine, because I love the work. Aidan: But because there's so much … and this is probably true for all three of us … there's so much emotional and magical energy tied into what we're doing that the exhaustion level was just not reasonable. Fabeku: Yeah. Aidan: And again, realizing at some point, you go, “Okay, what am I actually interested in?” And for me, it's … both me and my allies are fully invested in this transmission to those people that maybe we can help. And it seemed like for a long time, that the talismanic work was the best way to do that. Aidan: And again, I love the whole process of it, but in the last, I guess like six months, that really shifted to like, “No, I really want to be producing books so that that is a wide range thing that can I go. Aidan: And then I want to teach classes where I can really engage with people because there's no time to do that with the jewelry work that I was doing in a way that I would like to kind of go, “Okay, this is what's … this is how some of the stuff that I want to share works. And then let's engage about it so that we can get somebody rolling,” in a way that I felt like I couldn't before. Yeah. Fabeku: And I think that exhaustion piece, that's always the sign. And I think … But I mean, how long does it take us or anybody to catch that? Most of the time, the solution is more coffee, more sugar, more shit food, more donuts, whatever it is for however long we can until … For me anyway, I reached the point that it's like, “Yeah, more caffeine isn't going to fix this.” Fabeku: The problem is not a caffeine deficiency. Whatever expenditure is happening, it's no longer coherent. And so it's taking more than it's giving. And yeah, I mean, I think that for me is always the sign, whether it's in a relationship or a business thing or whatever that, “Yeah, something has changed and so you need to change your response to it.” Andrew: For sure. Yeah. Well, I think that when you start showing up differently to places, it's like that's the problem, right? And that's the problem with me in the fall where I was just really run down from relationship stuff. A couple of long-term relationships ended for me in the fall. Andrew: And from reopening the store, which was no small amount of work and trying to wrangle that, but also in a completely new way that I would show up and things would just be making me crusty and I'd be like, “Oh man, what's up with that?” And I think that's another sign, right? When small things are … if they were singular, a small thing just irritates you so much. Andrew: You're just like, “Ah.” It's like, “Oh, that's also a good sign,” where it's like, “Man, I just got to step back from this somehow. I got to change this dynamic,” because showing up with that energy is not good magically for anything, right? Aidan: Yeah. For sure. Andrew: That is one of those situations where you can't start to influence what's going on with your vibes. Right? Aidan: Yeah. Andrew: And that's not ideal at all. Right? That's just not helpful, so. Fabeku: Well. And I think too when that exhaustion kicks in at such a deep level, how do you funnel the energy that you need into the magic? How do you fuel it? There's no fucking fuel there at some point. It's like you can sit in the car with no gas and jam the pedal down, but good luck. And there's just … and I think that's the thing. Fabeku: Yeah. And for me, that was another reason that I wanted to shift things because it's like if I can't fuel the art and the magic, which really to me, are the most important out of any of the things on the list, then what am I doing? If I don't have fuel for that shit, then something has gone really seriously sideways for me. Andrew: Yeah. Aidan: Yeah. And it's interesting too because we would like to believe that there's infinite capacity and there just isn't. And so at the point that I was working on the book, which is … it's mostly done. It needs a bunch of revision, but … and I realized I couldn't get the space to even do the revision, doing the jewelry the way that I was. And there's another three books waiting behind that one that are in process to some degree, though they're at their beginning stages. Aidan: Then it became really clear, like what's more important here? It's like, “Yes, I can make another thousand pieces of jewelry,” which I know is helpful to people and it's helpful again, financially to me. And I love the process, but this other thing is more important. So what's an appropriate feeder to that work? Aidan: And it's like, “Well, then I'd rather more directly involved with the people that are using the material to figure out what's translating and what's not translating so that I can get a clearer transmission.” So the jewelry and the books was no longer working, but the classes and the books seem like they will. So it's okay. I have to let go of that piece for the most part. Aidan: And it's not saying it won't come back someday, but there's enough on the table that it doesn't work with that, that I had to make that shift. Andrew: Yeah. There's time when we've been talking about teaching some here, but we'll jump in with one of the questions that somebody posted on somewhere, Facebook, maybe. When you're teaching, what do you learn from that process? What have you learned about yourself from that process? Andrew: How does teaching or does teaching change the way you think about things or talk about things? What's that role for you around that stuff? Aidan: I mean, for me, I haven't done direct teaching since the 90s except whatever goes on, on a small scale, but kind of focused work. So it's interesting. So the prep work for that really gets me clarifying how I think and how I feel about stuff because my problem is a lack of … I could do so much that it's like, “Okay, but what's a useful collection? Aidan: What's a useful tool of collection?” I don't want to just go and hit up the hardware store and throw every tool available into the box. Andrew: Step one, buy a hardware store. Aidan: So yeah, it's definitely … which is kind of unfortunately not a bad metaphor for how some folks approach all this stuff, right? Buy every tool in the hardware store and learn how to use it. It's like, “No, what we need is we need to get you the little lunchbox size, little kit that has a few things that you can do some stuff with.” But that also has to have depth. Aidan: And so I'm kind of the anti-complexity guy, so it's how do you get a coherent little package to use that term that somebody could either use as part of a larger thing or on its own. And so it really does. For me, it's been super clarifying is what I would say. Fabeku: Yeah. And I agree with that. So for me, I saw that a lot when I did last year. I think I did … it was like three weeks on hyper centrals, four weeks maybe. And it was interesting because I mean, that's the thing I've done forever and I could talk about it for six months and I didn't want to because I don't think it was necessary. It's like you said. Fabeku: It's like, “Here's the lunchbox size kit on hyper sigils that also talks about things that a lot of people don't talk about and gives you plenty of room to take those as far as you want for decades into the future without also simultaneously overwhelming you into thinking of, ‘Fuck, this is such a big thing. I'm never going to be able to use this or it's going to take me forever to get this.” Fabeku: And I mean, so I think that's one of my main considerations. It's like what's the minimum information you need to use this immediately and effectively? And that's what I'll teach. And some things, maybe we circle back some things, maybe we stretch out, like the divination thing I did last year and six months and that was a lot. Fabeku: We've dug into a ton, but I think that … and the other thing I'm always thinking about is like how do I teach things in a way that anybody with any magical ecology can make use of this? Right? I don't care if you're a Buddhist, if you're a Christian, if you're an atheist, if you're a Satanist, whatever, it doesn't matter. I want you to be able to take this and plug it into your magical ecology and use it. Fabeku: It's not … because if you have to adopt mine in order to use it, then for me, I think I failed as a teacher. Right? I mean, outside of teaching traditional practices or whatever. But you that's a big thing. So for me, it's always a question of, what's actually essential to the practice and what's my own shit that I built around either preferences or magical aesthetics or whatever, that doesn't really matter to anybody other than me? Fabeku: And have I stripped enough of that away so that anybody can take this thing and run with it? That's always a big consideration for me. Aidan: Yeah, totally. That makes sense. There's a practice that I'm teaching in the class that I have coming up that I actually went out to the Salvation Army and bought all new pieces to put together because I could see people getting fixated on the aesthetic that I personally use, which is really not relevant to the practice. Aidan: So it's like, “Okay, let's go see what I can pick up for five or 10 bucks that can assemble this structure so that it's not as linked to what's going on in my alter.” Because that's just my artistic sense and my aesthetic and what me and my spirits have come together on as a language that works. Right? And that's totally not necessary, but it's what people tend to get hooked on. Andrew: Well, that's the Instagram era, right? You know what I mean? So it circles back to the originating the thing about the name of this group. Right? Aidan: Absolutely. Andrew: How do ensure you stack the skull? Aidan: Stack the skulls. Andrew: The higher they are, the [inaudible 00:26:36] you are. tack. Right? There's nothing wrong with that at all, but the aesthetics over there are not super relevant. Aidan: Yeah. Not on a wider level. It's that thing that I talked about in six ways, right? That there's … I think that people, and I used to definitely have this, get super focused on this specific stuff, but the specific stuff is always super context and aesthetics fits in there. And what really is more relevant is what's the general thing that is not necessarily universally applicable but more universally applicable. Aidan: And in the age where we've got pictures of everything, it definitely can get really hung up. You got to have this thing that looks just like that. Andrew: Well, and just, because it looks good doesn't mean that it's alive. Right? Aidan: For sure. Andrew: Because there's the other piece. Fabeku: Yes. Andrew: Yes. I mean, I think that there are lots of things that I run across and not that I have to feel anything from everything, but I'm like, “Oh, it doesn't … I don't feel any feedback from this at all.” And maybe the other thing that's there just doesn't want anything to do with me. Andrew: It's possible, but maybe it's just … there's a failure to make that connection. Right? Just something [crosstalk 00:28:00] because the work itself that would support that connection is not strong, but the emphasis on all those other things is. Fabeku: Yeah. I think that's the thing. To me, the metric is, does this thing … can you feel it in your bones? Can you feel it in your animal body? If so, then who gives a fuck what it looks like? It doesn't matter if it would make a great Instagram photo. That to me, that's the wrong metric for shit like that. I mean, listen, I love the Instagram photos but in terms of magic, who cares? It's irrelevant. Aidan: Totally. Exactly. And it's also funny because people get hung up I think. And again, I know that I did this when I started out, but you get hung up on things that are, again, specific. So my current shop is filled with halved pieces of fruit with two lights burning on it. I could make up this whole story about why this is the way to do this. And it's like, “This is just what's going on this week. I don't really know why. Aidan: It's the thing that felt totally right.” I cut something in half and went, “Oh, man. That really needs candles on I,” and I could feel it and it works. And it's also the same thing. Yeah, I mean, there's so much weird shit in here right now because I think of who's hanging out for the class if it is really aesthetically wrong from that or even my normal thing. Aidan: I've got all of this beautiful stuff and the monster energies and the red bulls and shit. It's like, “What the fuck?” Old candy canes that I stole from the gym after Christmas. But there's people who like those. I'm not going to buy them if I can have them. Fabeku: I think people even do the same thing. When I was teaching the sigils course, it's one of the main reasons that I didn't take any pictures of the sigils that I drew because then suddenly people think, “Oh, well. That's what a sigil should look like you.” No, this is what they currently look like. Over the last 30 years, they looked a million different ways. Aidan: [crosstalk 00:30:03] shit. Fabeku: I mean, the first time, they looked exactly like the Pete Carroll sigils in his book. I think that's the thing and I get it and I think that people … I think it's so easy to fall into that subconscious even. It's not so much, “Let me copy Fabeku's sigil,” it's, “Let me copy Aidan's alter.” It's, “Oh, well. Fabeku: This is somebody who knows what they're doing, and so this is what it should look like so let me try to make it look like that.” And then, great. So then your brain says, “Okay, good job. You drew a sigil that looks like a sigil,” and then it doesn't do shit because like you said, Andrew, it's not alive. It's a thing that looks like a thing, but it's not the thing. Andrew: Or you end up in a cycle. One of the things that I've learned from teaching or been really clear about going into teaching, and I've learned how to make that happen is, I started in a school of thought that says, “Only the only the hammer from the top of Mt. Everest hardware store was acceptable.” Right? And by the way, only on the third full moon of the year and- Aidan: On Monkey Island. Andrew: Right, exactly. Not the usual Everest, the secret Everest. It's inside the hollow woods- Aidan: The secret Everest inside Monkey Island. Andrew: … which is inside the hollow woods. So you got to get in the hollow woods, you got to find the doppelganger, Himalaya Mountains and then you got to find the hardware store and you'd better bring their currency because they don't accept dollars. Whereas every town's got a hardware store. Right? Andrew: And what you find there is great. It's totally acceptable and if you want or need something else, there's a point at which that becomes aesthetic in personal taste, which is great. And if it helps you get in the mood, that's fantastic. And if it helps you feel aligned or if a spirit you have … there are times where somebody taps on my shoulder and says, “Hey, I want that.” Andrew: I bought … Marcus McCoy makes these copper harvesting knives. Right? And as soon as I saw one of those, one of my guides was just like, “That is exactly the knife that I want you to take when we go do stuff.” I'm like, “Perfect.” And then I'm like, “But not with that thing on it,” because there's like a triple spiral or whatever on it. So I was like, “All right, rushed markers right away.” I'm like, “Hey, can I get one of these?” Andrew: “Of course.” But that's specific, right? And that's specific to that relationship. That is not universal. Right? And you may find that you do want or need something like that, but you may never need it or it may not fit your aesthetic. And that's awesome too. It's completely acceptable. Right? Aidan: Totally. Fabeku: For me, I love … and maybe this is part of the art stuff or not, maybe it's just a personality thing, but I love shit like that and I love the collection like that. And I love the fancy silver pens for the sigils. And so there's … I don't make any apology for that, but one of the best things I did maybe 10 years ago was essentially put all of that stuff away and say, “Okay. Fabeku: I'm doing sigils on white paper with a blue ballpoint pen,” which I hate and never use. Or, “I'm doing candle magic with a bag of dollar candles from the dollar store,” or whatever. And part of that was to see, does this actually matter? I mean, it matters to me, but does this actually matter in any wider sense? And it doesn't. It really doesn't. That's the thing. What do you mean for sigil magic? Fabeku: You need something to write within a piece of paper. That's all you need. That's it. If you want to get the fancy black paper and the pen, cool. Do it. But I think it's a trap when we get stuck into thinking, “I have to have this. I have to have this.” Because that to me, it just doesn't seem true. Andrew: Yeah. I feel like that's where one of those pieces around, “You definitely don't have to have it.” And I also look to pursue my joy around it. Fabeku: Yeah, absolutely. Aidan: Absolutely on that. Fabeku: Yes. Andrew: I found these new pens at the art supply store. They're called preppy pens and they come in different sizes, but they're refillable with a cartridge and they're … I think I paid like $7 for it and I've bought a lot of other much more expensive fountain pens and whatever. And these ones, the feel of them, the flow of them, they come in different colors. Andrew: The outsides are color-coded and they're just such a delight. And so every time I stop by the art store now, I buy another one because there's somewhere in my life where one of those doesn't live regularly. And I was just like, “Why am I drawing with this crappy pen when I can be drawing with this other nice one that I like?” And there's a pleasure in that. Andrew: But again, that's so personal, right? That's not … it adds something to the magic if I'm doing magic, but it's also an active source of joy for me, which I think is also a super valid reason for things, especially if we don't say that that actually matters in the end on any real big scale. Fabeku: Well, it's like for me. So as an example, I just made this batch of lunar talismans a couple of months ago and I mean, I went all out. I had fossil dugong ribs. I had literally a lunar media writer, all kinds of shit in there. I spent forever finding the stuff. And it's not that I had to. I mean, again, like you said, it adds something. I mean, there's clearly something added to these pieces because of what's in them. Fabeku: But part of it is I look at it as a piece of art. It's like I'm putting the best stuff I can and there's enormous joy for me in grinding up a lunar media writer, fossil cave bear toe or whatever. But the reality is, could I have gotten a stone from the ocean and made a lunar talisman? Fabeku: Sure. Of course. But I think it is that weird thing. I don't think it's good to say it doesn't matter because it does matter, but it's not essential. And to me, there's the- Aidan: Right. Fabeku: And I think the problem is in that people look at it and say, “Well, I can't make a lunar talisman unless I have a lunar media writer.” And that's bullshit. That's complete bullshit. I love it. I love putting those pieces together in a way that's artful and beautiful and whatever, but you don't have to do that. Aidan: Right. Yeah. I think that's a big thing. Part of it comes out of I think … There's a whole kind of literature that says that this has to be done this way. Right? And we see this and not just magic, but it's extremely prevalent in magic. And that's very weird to me as somebody who came from these chaos, magic background. Even though I feel like I've, in many ways, moved away from that into something else, that's my own thing. Aidan: That's not consciously unrelated to it, but I was born there. Was that process of, “Well, what does this do? What does this piece of work do? What are the elements that actually matter here?” And then realizing that, “Yeah, there's stuff that really triggers something in me that is optimization and stuff.” Like, “Yeah. There's particular … if I got the hit that I needed to ride the bike up into South Mountain to collect dirt from there for something, I'm going to go do that,” because that's legit. Aidan: But it may not need to be dirt from there to do that work. That doesn't mean you got to come out here and go up to South Mountain, which is how a lot of stuff's written. And I think that it really has messed up a lot of folks because they do believe that if I can't have a beeswax candle to do this piece of work, then I can't do this piece of work. Fabeku: I think that for me, I think that's probably the best saying that I got out of the chaos magic stuff. You know what I mean? When you're doing magic with silly putty and bones from chicken wings, you can't really get too precious about, “Yeah, this is essential for magic.” It's like, “Listen, really?” I mean, it's just … For me, that really was the best thing. Fabeku: Because I think before that, I think I was fairly precious about it or I thought it had to be this or had to be that. And there was some things I just didn't have the money together. I didn't have the resources for whatever it was. And I thought, “Well, I just can't do that.” And then suddenly, chaos magic was like, “Well, actually, there's other ways you can do shit.” And for me, that was a huge thing. A huge thing. Aidan: Absolutely. And I remember, I've had a lot from the talismanic stuff. I would get people … and it's lovely that somebody recognizes that the work that you do is potent. I would get folks from places in the world that what I charged for a piece of jewelry is like a year's worth, going like, “I really want to do this. How do I …” and I would be like, “Don't.” Aidan: You're targeting a specific tree that is not necessary. It's just not necessary. And again, it's like, “Sure, if you've got the ability. I do this thing too. There's things that I have in here that I paid crazy money for because they really speak to me and I was in a position to do it.” Andrew: Yeah. Aidan: And sometimes, it was a stretch and sometimes that stretch was part of it, right? It's not like that's not a thing either. But again, it doesn't … One of the things that we know, again, like teaching the protection stuff for the class is it's all kitchen herbs. There's no … it's partially for that. It's like, “I don't know where you are. Aidan: I've got people from different parts of the world. I'm not going to … I might suggest that you get some Aubrey Camino if you can because it works, but it's really cool.” Andrew: Yeah, yeah. I think it's always fascinating, right, that kind of stuff. And I think that also becomes this matter of like, “What do you have? What can you connect with?” Right? And it's different depending on which practices, right? Like in the Aricia stuff, the specific plants are super specific, right? Andrew: There's no negotiating that beyond a certain point. There's a little wiggle room, but there's not a ton of wiggle room. Right. It's just like- Aidan: Totally. Andrew: … “Okay, we're going to do this. Therefore, we need these things. And if you don't have them, I'm not exactly sure what we do,” right? But outside of specific traditions, there's always those things. And it also becomes this question of, what do you have a dynamic of living connection with? Right? I just got back in after struggling to find a source for them for a while, Rose of Jericho, which is one of my all-time favorites, right? Andrew: And I had a Rose of Jericho at the store that I'd had almost the entire time that the store had been open, I think. And then it was very dynamic and a living connection and it had all sorts of things that I had given it over time and worked with it in a lot of ways and it just wasn't available and because getting stuff in Canada is complicated sometimes. And so when I finally found them, I'm like, “Great.” Andrew: So now, not only is that are they available in the store, which is lovely, but even more so for me, I can now reconnect with that plant and start to have that process again through the direct connection.” But it's like that also comes out of years of interaction and perhaps some natural affinity in some way or another. Right? But does everybody else need to not do financial magic if they don't find a Rose of Jericho? Of course not. Right? Aidan: Right. Andrew: Like you said there, there's a billion other bits and pieces. Are they really cool? Well, they are really cool. But also- Aidan: Totally. Fabeku: Well, it's like … I've worked with Alice Wood for … I don't know, 15, 16 years. It's one of the plants I work with a ton and I've worked with it in all kinds of ways to the point that I've got this like grimoire of aloes wood magic. And my question is, “Well, if I give that grimoire to you, is it going to work?” Probably not. At least probably not in the same way because either you don't have a relationship with the plant or you don't have the same kind of relationship with the plant. Fabeku: And to me, not better or worse, but it's just different. And to me, I assume that what the plant … and I think this is my baseline assumption for a lot of this shit is that what the plant has given me is about the dynamic that I have with that plant. Not that I'm channeling some universal grimoire of aloeswood magic that anybody. That doesn't make sense to me. Fabeku: I don't think that's a real thing. And I again, I think … and that's why I haven't talked to … Some people have asked about it because I mentioned it in passing and I haven't talked a lot about it because I have no idea if it's going to work the same for anybody. And I use what is expensive and not always easy to get and whatever. Fabeku: And I think it gives people the wrong impression that in order to do this, I need this plant or I need this. And I don't think that's true. My thing is find the relationship that you have that lets you do a similar thing that probably doesn't have shit to do with aloes would. Maybe it's Abra Camino, maybe it's Rose of Jericho, whatever it is. Fabeku: And I wish more people would talk about their practices that way instead of, “Here's the universal gospel of aloes world.” It's like fuck off with that. That's not real. Andrew: It's like how people talk about their issues, right? They come into the store sometimes and they're like, “I need Oshun candle because I need to attract some love of my life.” And I'm like, “Maybe.” But when we're … for initiated practitioners, and I think that for people who practice in a traditional way, the reality is although Orishas have a certain affinity to certain kinds of things, the reality is that if you're in good with shon go, you can fix your money, fix your home, you can fix your whatever. Andrew: Right? The reality is this, at a certain point, it's like having a good friend whose skill is not helping you hang drywall, but they're going to come and help you heck drywall because they love you. And they're like, “Sure, dude. I'll do that. That's fine. We can do that.” Andrew: These energies can work with us in a broad sense of a way, especially and probably only if we've taken that time to build a deep and lasting connection with them and probably that rest on some affinity that is hard to trace and makes it not necessarily universal. Right? For me, one of the local plants is Murdoch, right. And it's like, what do I need? Anything? Andrew: I'm just like, “All right. Hey, Berta, you got a thing for this?” Like, “Yeah, just trim this little bit off the edge of the leaf and do blah, blah, blah with it and it's going to fix this [inaudible 00:45:40] great.” I'm like, “Oh, you know what? I could dig up the whole root,” whatever. And it's like, “But on the outside of the room, not the inside of the room.” Andrew: It becomes a myriad of applications, which again, aren't necessarily universal or maybe they are, it's hard to say, but they don't seem universal. But they come out of that direct relational experience of it. Fabeku: I wish that was a point that was talked about more in the occult circles, right? Because every day, you see posts, “What's the best term for love? What's the best term for magic? What's the best spirit for money?”It's like, “Fuck.” I mean, I get it, but to me, that's the wrong question. Anytime people ask that, my question back is, “Who do you have a relationship with?” Fabeku: That's the answer to that. Not some random spirit or plant or stone or whatever that knows fuck all about you and what you're doing. Go to the spirits of the people you have relationships with. And I think … I don't know how this happened, but this falling into this trap of treating spirits, any kind of spirit as this one-hit wonder, right? This is a lover, this is a … it's just like, “Really? It doesn't make sense to me.” Fabeku: And I just wonder how different people's magic would look both in terms of the practice and the results if this relationship piece were more front and center. If it wasn't this weird, utilitarian, one-note, “This spirit does this,” like, “[inaudible 00:47:10] is for love.” It's like, “Come on. That doesn't seem real.” But it seems like such a pervasive perspective on things. Fabeku: And listen, I mean, I fell into the same shit for once. I'm not being critical of anything that I haven't been guilty of myself, but it just seems to be such a big point. It just isn't discussed enough. Aidan: Yeah. I've been thinking about this in a particular context. I made a joke to Charlene Coop saying that there's a way that people treat the name spirits like Tinder. We're just going to look up and find somebody local that's interested in getting down. Right? But usually, they're not doing that to just get down. Aidan: They're doing that because they want something deeper. Right? On the spirit side. I don't know what goes on the Tinder side, but I understand that's a misapplication of Tinder. And I think it's interesting- Andrew: Every app. I think Tinder is a misapplication. Aidan: Again, I'm out of those games largely. And one of the things that came up is then I had this … one of my trans things that happened a few days after that. I was thinking about that comment and I got this great vision and I was like, okay, so imagine that there's like … in North America, let's just say. In North America where the three of us are, but there's 100,000 potential partners for us, right, that would suit us, each of us. Aidan: But what ends up happening is that we've got the names and the photo of like 150 of them and so everybody wants to figure out which of those 150 would be a good partner. And to me, the thing is so much more than this wide-open of going, “No, I want to connect to the currents around me and the allies around me and then I want to work with them. Aidan: I want to develop those relationships through the things that I've learned work for me to do that.” And then why would I go outside of that to try and get something done? Maybe if I had to, if that was what I was guided to, but I'm certainly not going to go hunt for that. I'm much more likely to come in here and go, “Hey, Rutan candles.” Fabeku: Oh, that was the one that- Aidan: I'll buy you more energy drinks for this. Andrew: Those are a lot of magical place course I taught. Right? Which is … and I'm going to be reteaching in the spring. It's that energy of like, “All right, either where do those entities that you're connected to show up in your environment or what your environment shows up for you. And how do you start to build that?” Right? And it's just such a different approach. Right? Andrew: One of the things that I had to remind people taking that class, “Look, identify the plant. Great. Please make sure it's not secretly poisoned. Don't pick Poison Ivy by mistake and fall in love with it and take a bath in it, and then write angry emails. But also don't research it,” right? It's not about researching it. At some point … and just enough to make sure that you're safe and that you're not like, “Oh, yeah. Andrew: These berries look delicious.” And then all of a sudden … but allow that to expand. Working to allow that expansion to happen, that's the actual work of becoming a better magician, right? Aidan: Yes. Andrew: It's not necessarily just about knowledge and knowledge is lovely. And corroboration feels great when you're like, “Oh, I really felt that this plant was good for this.” And then you Google it and 10 people say it's good for that. You're like, “Oh, it's great. I'm making a genuine connection.” It feels great. Right? Andrew: And we may need some of that some of the time, but also just being open and being connected in that mysterious way. I think that's also really crucial to this process. Fabeku: I totally agree. It's like when people ask me, “How do I get to know this plant? Or how do I get to know the stone?” That's the first thing I say, “Don't Google it. Don't look up what you know witchipedia says this.” It's unnecessary. Right? To me, if you want to get to know a stone, if you want to research something, research it's geology, research its mineralogy, but then sit with it. Fabeku: Hang out with it just like you would a human being. Right? If I want to get to know Andrew, I'm not going to Google Andrew and read a bunch of ShowMe. I'm just going to … we're going to hang out. I'm going to ask you what you like. I'm going to pay attention to the music you listen to. I'm going to see what you eat. I'm going to ask you questions. I'm going to see how I feel when I'm around you. That's how you get to know shit. Aidan: Yes. Andrew: And I that is the key to Tinder's app. [crosstalk 00:52:08]? People are like, “How do you have success on this thing?” I'm like, “That,” right? If you meet somebody and you're actually interested in them other than just for something super transitory, actually do those things too. Right? Because people are like, “Oh, I don't know what to do.” I'm like, “Find it with that person. Be curious.” Right? I don't care if [inaudible 00:52:28]. Fabeku: No. I mean, at the end of the day, I agree. I think one of the best muscles to build as a magician is relationship building skills. That's it. You don't have to buy a million books. You don't have to take a million courses. You don't have to Google a bunch of shit. Just build a relationship with stones or plants or spirits the same way you would have people. It's the same shit. It's the same shit. Aidan: And it's crazy because it's so common. All of this stuff is really common everywhere. And I saw this recently and I didn't respond to it, though I probably should have. Somebody asked like, “So how do you get in? Where can I learn about connecting to desert spirits?” Aidan: It's like, “The only way that I really know is you get into that environment, whether this is … if you live near one, you can do that, but you can do this as kind of trancey stuff or daydreamy stuff of somehow connect to that space and to see what develops. See who you find. See who rises up and see what happens.” It's funny though, because I think … everybody knows I'm a total gym rat, but I see this all the time in the conversations about that. Aidan: Somebody will see somebody dead-lifting a world record and go, “Their form is wrong.” And you go, “That guy is the strongest in that move in the world ever. How is his form wrong? It worked.” That was the goal. It's the goal. It has nothing to do with the thing you're talking about. His goal was to pick up 1,008 pounds and stand up with it. So by definition, he did it right. And I think that's good learning magic too all the time. Fabeku: I think to me, the same idea … at least for me, the same idea applies in figuring out what to work with magically as it does hanging out with people. When I'm around people, I pay attention to how my animal body feels. Is there a pull? Is there … am I drawn to that person in whatever way? As a friend, it doesn't matter whatever it is. It's the same when I'm sitting with plants. I feel a ping toward this plant. Fabeku: I don't know this plant, but there's a pull. So I want to know this plant more, this stone or this place or this river. And that to me is guided so much of my practice, and again, it's the same with people. If I spot somebody and there's a pull, then I'm curious about them. And I want to know more about them, whether it's a friend or a partner, whatever, it doesn't matter. Fabeku: And me, that's a decidedly different thing than Googling which plants work money magic. Too me, it feels like we're coming at opposite angles. I mean, clearly, both can work, but for me, that pull is everything. And if I don't feel it, I don't give a fuck who told me this plant is great for money magic. If there was not that pull there, I'm not into it. I'll keep looking until I feel it. Andrew: It brings me to something that I've been thinking about a lot lately and this might be the perfect place to bring it up. We've all been in magic for a long time. Right? So I sound like an old person because I'm an old person. Stuff comes and goes and people are like, “All of it, this, all of it, that.” Andrew: And I've been watching a big surge of witchcraft in which the energy going on around the store, in culture, in my social medias and stuff like that. And whenever I see a big sort of movement into something, I'm always like, “That's really interesting. What is going on? What's motivating that? How is that serving people?” Andrew: I'm genuinely curious about that, right? And supportive of it. But I also wonder, because I understand how these things work, what's going to happen next, right? Aidan: Right. Andrew: Because this idea that … and maybe I'm wrong, right? Maybe I'm just old and curmudgeonly, in which case, delete this episode, please. Let's never speak of it again. But often, what happens is there's this big sway into a thing and then a bunch of people find a deep and lasting affinity with it. Andrew: And I'm really curious where those people are going to be in 10 or 15 years and what I'm going to get to learn from their journey through this stuff as they have a depth of practice under their belts in the same way that I learn now from those people who've already been doing these things for a stretch of time and have that. Andrew: But I'm also curious about where those people who were looking for something and either they found it and moved on or they were looking for something else and it wasn't here and then they moved on. We were talking about some … Aidan said something earlier about, they're actually looking for something deeper. Right? Andrew: And one of the things that I've been really noticing, which I find fascinating, is that I see a lot of people who've been all in on the witchy fronts over the last year or a couple of years starting to … their posts and maybe their magic … I don't know what they're doing privately, but certainly, their public stuff. It's starting to take on a much more explicitly therapeutic approach. Andrew: There's a lot more people talking about trauma, dealing with trauma. There's a lot more people leaning … not abandoning the magic side of it, but leaning into stuff where the relationship that they're trying to sort it the most is ultimately that relationship with themselves. Right? And I mean, I think that's always smart. I think that it's a great thing to get into around doing magic in general. Andrew: Certainly, it was a good chunk of my practice at one point to do therapy as a way of freeing myself in order to heal myself or to … I mean, not just be a better magician, but certainly, be better at magic and better in my relationships and all those things. But I'm curious if you've seen that or if you've seen other things, what do you think around that stuff? I know I just said a million things, but responses, please. Aidan: I mean, I see that. I think that we are … For whatever reason, I mean, we've got this crazy thanks to social media and the news cycle and everything else. We have this much clearer view if you're able to step back from it. There's really multiple ways of being in this world that are not really congruent. Right? When I was growing up, there was a lot of messaging that in the end, everybody wants the same thing. Aidan: Right? And that's not what I see now. No. We want very different things and we are not supportive of the other. And I think that this is that. I think it is the evolution of that trauma. And so I think that there's a lot of that out there and there's maybe just more … maybe it's gotten to the point where it's so overt that poor people are willing to do that work because I definitely get fed tons and tons of that work for my allies, both for me and then to share with people. Aidan: It's an interesting thing as to the … Again, I think that the media cycling is really interesting around magic. I just think it's fascinating because there are those who totally freak out every time. And I always remember there's a line from Quadrophenia by the who, a very old record of the slide where he says, “It's sadly ecstatic that your heroes are news.” Aidan: And I see that constantly around the witchcraft stuff in the last couple of years. People are like, “Yay, we got it on TV.” And, “Oh, my God. It's so bad.” It's like, yeah, but don't trip. It's just this is what goes on. Andrew: Well, it was like … what was it? Last week or the week before that bullshit article, I think it was in the independence that some journalists wrote like, “Oh, I tried magic for a week and it doesn't work.” And everybody was so upset about it. And I get it. I mean, it was a bullshit article, but I mean, to me, it was just kind of like, “Who cares?” I mean, I get it. It was a shitty thing to publish, but does this do anything to magic? Andrew: Does this do anything to people who actually give a fuck about it that are seriously interested in it? I mean, it was … I mean, she was wearing some witch's Halloween costume in the photo. What did you think the piece was going to be? It was bullshit from the beginning. And magic has been around way before this and it's going to exist way after this. Andrew: And I don't know if it's just a function of, like you said, getting older or just having limited bandwidth, but I didn't really get the upset about it. I mean, which doesn't just say people shouldn't be upset, but for me, it was just like, “Okay, next.” I mean, it was nonsense. Who cares? Andrew: Like Rumi says, right? The real work is done by somebody outside digging in the dirt, right? There's all these other bits and pieces and trappings and maybe they're important. Maybe they're a part of your journey. Maybe media representation for who you are is important for any number of reasons, but also, it's like that piece, a piece I shared this week from … I think we all shared it … from Jason Miller. Right? Andrew: Where it's like, “Just do the work. It doesn't matter if you feel like it or don't feel like it. If you're committed to a relationship with the spirit or doing magic or …” I remember this when I used to do a LIBOR rash, right? The four times a day solar adoration that Crowley and his various descendants propose. Right? Speaking of finding the hammer at the top of the Himalayan Mountains. Andrew: It's like trying to do something four times a day at the four quarters of the day, every day. Definitely, it's overly complicated. I'm not sure that it's actually necessary per day. It can be, but it's … yeah. But so many times, it just never felt like it. Right? And not to say that I did it 100% because I didn't. I really literally, over two years, maybe I did two months, 100% of that at the peak of it because it's really difficult. Andrew: But the successes that I had, and that's sort of 75% or 80%, which is more like the average of what I was accomplishing came because I was like, “I don't feel like it but I going to do it, so let's do it.” And even at one point, I remember talking to a friend of mine about it and he was like, “Well, some traditions, you yell at your gods to try and call them down.” Andrew: So maybe just … whatever. I just remember reciting it one day and just every second word was, “Fuck this, fuck that, fuck you. Fucking sick of being here and this whole thing,” and I broke through something and it got better. But, yeah. It's complicated the relationship to these things. Fabeku: Yeah. And I think that to me is what's interesting about … and going back to … we were talking about with representation and news cycles and all of that. The conversation in the last handful of years about the whole witches of Instagram stuff and I have very mixed feelings about it and at the end of the day, who gives a fuck what my feelings are about it? But all of the conversations about how this has turned magic into some joke. It's like, “No, it hasn't. This hasn't done shit to magic.” Andrew: Magic is always a good joke. Aidan: Magic is the joke that gets you killed. Andrew: That's the actual history of it, right? Aidan: Yeah. So the fact that it's on TV and they aren't burning those people. Andrew: Yeah. I mean, I think- Aidan: That's positive references for sure. Fabeku: My thing is it's like this has been around forever. And if the witches of Instagram thing, if 5% of the people that fall into that end up being solid practitioners, I think that's fucking rad. And I don't really give a shit about the other 95%. It doesn't feel like my problem to care about. I think magic will filter those people out over time. And I guess … I don't know. I mean, again, I get it. Fabeku: Because I do think … I mean, like we talked about in the beginning, I think it's problematic. It gives people the sense that magic has to be this photogenic, heavily filtered, photograph of whatever. And that's nonsense. But I don't know. I guess I just feel like magic is bigger than that and I don't really sweat shit like that. And even if I find it personally annoying, which I do, but- Andrew: I feel like it's … sometimes I think it's helpful to have the same conversation in different context. Right? So when I was 16, I tried to be in Goth for a week, seven days. That was as long as I lasted. And I realized … I tried to do it because I hung out with all these Goths, right? I was like, “Oh, well. This is fun and I could dye a hair black and put it up like Robert Smith and whatever.” Andrew: It's pretty amusing. Maybe I'll show some pictures sometime. But what I realized was, “No, no, no, no. I should actually have a Mohawk and I'm way more punk rock than I'm Goth.” And it doesn't mean there's anything wrong with that week of trying a day or two, right? I tried it for a week and I learned something very important, “Hey, this isn't for me. I'm just going to keep rolling.” Andrew: And I think that, like all of us, right? I started … people today might call it grimoire focus, but certainly like traditional ceremonial magic and Crowley and all that stuff. And I moved into other things and moved into other things and that's fantastic, right? Because that's the way it goes. That is if you happen to find a thing that you're in lifelong practice, lovely. Andrew: If you don't find what you're looking for or hopefully, maybe more to the point, it grows and evolves as you've grown and evolved as a person, well, then just keep evolving. It doesn't matter. There's no shame in any of that. Fabeku: Yeah. Aidan: Yeah. I think too, it's interesting because I have to remember how differently wired people are, right? Because this is one of the things that has always blown my mind around the magical world and this is primarily around the wick end of things is where I've seen it. And this is not to bash on that at all. It's just not my thing. Aidan: I have always been incredibly confused at the, “Let's get whatever our angle is represented accurately according to some specific definition so that it's acceptable to people.” And you go, “This doesn't work anywhere.” Yeah. Right? This hasn't worked for … Yes. You could end up at the big table of religions. It doesn't even work in there.” Look at America now and how acceptable Muslim religion is right now. Aidan: Right? So why is this a target? I've never got it. Because to me, it's so individual. It's like what is your … and it goes back to that thing. What is your relationship to this process, to these powers, to these entities or to these deities? If you do deity work, that's what's irrelevant. Everything else is out of your control anyway. You might … yeah. Go ahead. Andrew: Says the man who lives in a small house with a bunch of animals at the edge of America. Right? Fabeku: That's true. Andrew: I mean, I think I wonder where you're more community and socially minded and less … I don't know if hermetic, Kermit-like is the right word, but a range of practice if that would change how you felt about it. Aidan: It's interesting because I spent a lot of time living in cities and probably the most overt I've ever been in was living in San Francisco. But this was also a different time and it is one of the downsides of the social media thing that I definitely see is in the 80s and the earliest 90s really before pictures happened on the internet, freaky concept for some people that are not as old as we are, it was not a thing. Aidan: I hung out with people who were hermetic magicians who were Elamites, who were various Orisha angle's Santeria practitioners, Wiccans, what we would now consider traditional witchcraft, which basically meant
The Hermit's Lamp Podcast - A place for witches, hermits, mystics, healers, and seekers
This is the 6th annual episode with Barbara. Andrew and Barbara talk about making change. The challenges in trying to notice the end before feels like it has gone too far past us. The talk about the last year and the grand changes that are coming for both of them in 2020. They also recorded a bonus for the Patreon on how to tell if something is fate or not. You can get access to that and all the great bonus material by signing up over here. You can catch all the previous episodes here on my website. Or look up episodes 22, 44, 58, 72, and 90 where you listen to your podcast. Think about how much you've enjoyed the podcast and how many episodes you listened to, and consider if it is time to support the Patreon You can do so here. If you want more of this in your life you can subscribe by RSS , iTunes, Stitcher, or email. You can find Barbara through her website here. Thanks for joining the conversation. Please share the podcast to help us grow and change the world. Andrew You can book time with Andrew through his site here. Transcript ANDREW: [00:00:02] Welcome to another episode of The Hermit's Lamp podcast. This week I am catching up with Barbara Moore just before the end of the year for our annual podcast episode where we check in on what's going on, what's changed, and, [00:00:17] you know, talk a lot about the shifting perspectives in our spiritual lives and practices and so on. You know, it's hard to imagine people don't know who you are, Barbara, certainly anyone in the tarot world, but for those who don't, who are you? [00:00:32] BARBARA: Oh, I forgot about this part of the interview. Yes. My name is Barbara Moore. I've been playing with tarot for, I don't know, maybe 30 years now. I'm probably best known for [00:00:47] a couple of things: one, creating tarot decks and writing books to go with them, and a few stand alone books as well, and I'm also the tarot acquisitions editor for Llewellyn, and I sometimes do some work for Lo Scarabeo as well. [00:01:02] And I teach here and there. ANDREW: Awesome. BARBARA: Yeah. ANDREW: So, I mean, I guess, you know, one of the things that I wanted to talk about with you was, it seems like [00:01:17] for me, everything's changed, you know, since our last podcast, I have gotten divorced, and my ex has moved out. I had a fire that burned down my store, and I have since reopened and, you know, opened a studio [00:01:32] to see clients out of and opened a new store. And, so for me, it's been a massive year of change, you know, perhaps unsurprisingly, if you follow the tarot birth card, year card business, as my death card just ended [00:01:47] at the beginning of the month, but it's also been a year of or at least a time of change for you too, right? Like you're also, maybe not quite where I am on the other side of it, but really sort of [00:02:02] setting in motion a bunch of change for yourself as well. Right? BARBARA: [00:02:17] That is absolutely true. The cycle of change, I would say it started back in 2016, and it has ushered in a period of challenge and becoming stronger and having things ripped away to find out what really matters, [00:02:33] and, as your listeners, if they've been listening to our conversations know, that two years ago, I moved to California, my wife and I moved to California, and we've been having a great adventure as [00:02:48] well as a lot of challenges and struggles. And we have recently come to the conclusion that this has been a really fun adventure, and we're grateful that we had it, but it's time for the adventure to be over, and so we [00:03:03] will be moving sometime this summer. So that is a really big change that we can talk about. It's not like having a store burn down or having a divorce, a relationship, a marriage end, [00:03:20] but our relationship also has gone through some struggles, luckily came out the other end stronger and better, richer and deeper, but it's still, we're both like two different people now, so it's [00:03:35] almost like a new relationship because we're learning to be together in new ways. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, you know and one of the . . . one of the things that people always say is something like what you said, whenever they start talking with [00:03:50] their own things, like, it's not as bad as your situation or whatever, right? And, I mean, on the one hand, yeah, maybe, right, like I get that, but also I think it's . . . I think it's really real, [00:04:05] how difficult struggle is for people, right? And you know, I mean there is tragedy and loss and people dying and all, you know, all those kinds of things that you know, no joke are very difficult. Right? [00:04:21] But I think that it's really important to not diminish our own struggles too, especially in the face of that. Right? Like it's, there's no scale. There's no competition, you know? And maybe other people [00:04:36] feel differently, if they're in positions like mine, but I actually feel like just relating around stuff is so much better than when it starts to kind of slide into, you know, areas where it's like, [00:04:51] well, it's not as bad as your life, but you know, whatever. It's like, yeah, that doesn't feel so great. And now I feel like there's a sort of other element to it, that isn't, doesn't need to be there, you know? BARBARA: Like a competition [00:05:06] or something. ANDREW: Yeah, a competition, or a sense of apology, you know? I mean, I feel like if, if I know somebody well enough to talk about my life and their life, then we're on the same ground, right, you know? And everybody, I think [00:05:21] everybody understands that some things are more difficult than others, from a certain perspective, you know, but, but either way, I think it's . . . I think it's important to sort of just keep that relationship open, you know, and not, [00:05:37] I don't know, create that distance that sometimes comes with that for me. BARBARA: Yeah, yeah, that's a really interesting point. Like, how did we, as a people start doing that, because it really is a habit and I feel like it's a little bit like social [00:05:52] behavior niceties, because when I'm not talking publicly, like on a podcast, I would talk about what I went through in terms of now that I'm through it and I can see the other [00:06:07] side when I look back on it, it was so hard I don't even know how I got up every day. ANDREW: Yeah. BARBARA: You know, so to say to you, "Oh, it wasn't so bad." When, if I talk to you privately, I would be like, "Oh my God, I don't know how I did that," you know . . . so, you were right. We [00:06:22] are on equal terms here. It's been hard. ANDREW: Yeah, you know, and life is difficult, right? You know, I mean not all the time. Luckily there's great things, you know? I mean, one of the things that was interesting was being at the tail end of the summer, [00:06:37] and I was checking in with the kids, just before they went back to school this year, and I'm like, “How was your summer?” Right? And they were, they both gave it like rave reviews. And they were like, “Well, how was your summer, Dad?" And I was like, I'm like, you know, [00:06:52] “I don't give it an 8 a 10, and like those two missing points are cause like, relaunching the store during the summer was a ton of work and very stressful, you know? And like, just dealing with all the stuff that came with that was very stressful.” [00:07:07] And I was like, “Man, I'm doing pretty good at having a good time despite all this, you know, horrible stuff that's gone on and all the stress that comes with it,” right? You know? But that also doesn't mean that there weren't days where I was like, “Oh my God, I have no idea, is that just [00:07:22] it, is this, you know, am I done having a store, is this over? Is that over?” You know, it's . . . Yeah, it's complicated when we lose that direction, right? I think it's . . . I think it's been challenging. And I think it's been a long time that you've been [00:07:38] sort of wrestling with this sense of direction, you know. BARBARA: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: I'm thinking about . . . We talked somewhere in one of the past episodes about, probably before you moved out there, right? When I did that impossible reading for you, and you were like, “Oh, yeah, I'm [00:07:53] going to do all these things now,” you know? It's been, it's been a quite a while in some ways, I think, right? BARBARA: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah, I have, especially in terms of my tarot . . . well, in a lot of areas in my life, but in terms of my tarot career, [00:08:08] I have felt really lost. So, so lost and I . . . and there are a lot of elements to that. One, I should have wrote notes. [00:08:23] One thing that changed is I wasn't working with tarot for myself. Well, I wasn't reading for other people either. I quit doing that a while ago for, mostly because I didn't feel like I had enough [00:08:38] to bring, to give, I wasn't, my cup wasn't full. I couldn't fill anyone else's cup and I wasn't working with the cards for myself. So, starting in January, I started pulling a card a day, because that's like, what you tell beginners [00:08:53] to start and I would do it and I'd mark it in my daily journal and, but, and never did anything with them and so finally, but it was enough. I mean, I had, all I had energy to do was that. [00:09:08] And that was a start. I was touching my cards again and that mattered. Then when things started, mmm, taking an upturn, I added something like, "Okay, I want this daily draw to do [00:09:23] something more than just get marked down in my book and mean nothing, but use ink," and so I decided to start pulling two cards a day. And making them mean something. So the first card was [00:09:38] some energy that I was going to find myself into that day, you know, whether it was something that happened or my added something, just, just the energy of the day, something, and then with an eye to improving myself, [00:09:53] or becoming the person I want to be, more than I am. I pulled another card: "How can I interact with this energy?" To do that. And that has been super helpful. [00:10:08] That's made a big difference and made things more active for me in terms of like, doing something with the cards. So, you know, that's just a little thing but it's made a big, big difference. [ping from phone] I am so sorry about [00:10:24] . . . ANDREW: Well, that's okay. BARBARA: And I also had been thinking a lot about, like, I had been questioning the whole doing readings thing. Right? What do we do readings [00:10:39] for? What's the purpose? Oh, these mundane readings about our everyday problems. How boring is that? Or is that even the right thing to do? I mean, just very angsty, kind of pointless, spinning my wheels questioning, [00:10:54] and then, you know, when I was thinking about, we were going to talk, and I'd thought I'd like to talk about that, and I had a kind of a revelation. I'm not sure if it's going to stick, but it's a thought, that because I [00:11:09] want to do readings about different things, or in different ways, or with a different focus. I had to denigrate those readings, for some reason, you know, I think maybe it's human nature sometimes to make ourself feel better and more confident, we have to put [00:11:24] down something else for whatever reason. And so, even just that thought made me feel a lot better about things like, "Oh, well, just because I don't want to do that and just because I want to do this, [00:11:40] that doesn't mean the other is bad. I don't have . . ." You know? I mean, does that make any sense? ANDREW: I do. BARBARA: Yeah. ANDREW: Yeah, you know, maybe a year, two years ago, [00:11:55] I was sitting during my, you know, not daily draw, but regular draws, and I was like, writing in my journal, and I found myself writing something like, "Well, when I'm free, blah blah blah [00:12:10] blah blah," right? BARBARA: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: And, and I, for whatever reason, on that day, as opposed to the various other days when I'd written something similar, I stopped and I looked at it. And I was like, [00:12:25] “Well, when is that going to be? And what does that look like?” Right? And I'm like, you know, at the time I was in an open relationship without a huge amount of limits on it. I mean some, but not, you know, I'm like, it's pretty darn free, I'm like, [00:12:40] you own your own store and you work for yourself. Like, what, what is it that other people are defining for you or that are limiting for you, right? You know? And the answer became pretty clear that it was very [00:12:55] little, right? Not nothing. But very little, right? I still have to pay taxes, I still have to, you know, whatever, there are certain things, but . . . And, I spent a lot of time sort of chewing on that for a while and realizing how [00:13:10] how often, movement, change, you know, these ideas were sort of created on continuing to define myself in relationship to other things [00:13:25] that actually had no sway or real say over my life, right? You know, I mean if I, if I decided, you know, I mean, I'm a, I'm a very fortune-teller-oriented card reader, but if I decided that I had enough of [00:13:40] that, and all I wanted to do was psychological readings, I could just change my website and filter people based on that and inform them, when they tried to book that, you know, this was the process going forward and that would be it. Like there's, there wasn't a lot of [00:13:55] things that prevented me from the various things that I was sort of waiting to become free enough to do. And so, since then I've spent a lot of time keeping my, keeping my definition and directions [00:14:10] in check, right? Like really looking at them, and saying, “Okay, am I, am I defining this relationally? Am I in relationship with some idea that I'm not actually interested in or don't want to live by," and so on, you know, and it's, [00:14:25] it's not always easy, but I think it's really helpful. Right? So look at those pieces and say, you know, your practice has no bearing on day-to-day type questions, right? Your practice doesn't need to have any relationship to the way I read or other people read [00:14:40] or the, you know, the whims of the tarot community and, you know, this year, next year, or 10 years from now, you know. BARBARA: Yep. Yeah, knowing [00:14:55] what you want, cleanly, and being realistic about it, and not just finding excuses, that takes a lot of self-reflection and honesty, [00:15:10] but will really make a big difference. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: In how you feel about your life in this moment. ANDREW: So, how do you, how do you generate that self-reflection? [00:15:25] You're talking about tarot, as one part, your tarot practice this year. How else do you talk--how else do you figure out? Because andone of the things that I think is--yeah, it's a bit of a theme, I think, with some episodes, it comes [00:15:40] up in various places, but this idea of like, how do you know when you're done? Right? How do you know when enough's enough? How do you notice that change, mark that change? You know? And so on, right? BARBARA: Yeah. [00:15:55] And, hmmm . . . Like, if we could come up with a format, a step-by-step format, on how to get yourself to that spot, we could probably be millionaires. Because everyone wants to know that, I [00:16:10] think. Because, at least for me, I have not come up with a method that, like, walks me to the spot where I can step over the line out of, you know, the mists of confusion into clarity. [00:16:26] I don't have that. For me, it has been, it has felt like waking up. ANDREW: Mmm. BARBARA: Like, like I've been either asleep or underwater [00:16:41] or walking through Jello or something. And I don't realize it at the time for that. I mean, I know I don't feel right, I know I feel confused and unhappy, no energy, but [00:16:56] I don't really fully understand that state of being asleep or underwater until I start coming out of it. And then I see it. And then I start thinking, [00:17:12] I don't have to be that way anymore. ANDREW: Mmm. BARBARA: And so, when I can, it's like this pivotal point, this space where, like, a liminal space between what has been going on and what could be and [00:17:27] I have this opportunity to keep behaving the way I had been or changing the behavior. But before that, I don't know that I could have changed the behavior. I don't know that I was in a place where I could have [00:17:42] done that. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: So, for me, it's this point where . . . Or at least how it feels for me right now, is, I can't wait to get started on the next phase and [00:17:57] I haven't had that excitement, energy, or enthusiasm in two years. So how . . . But how do I know? It's, it's, it's vague. I don't have . . . well, maybe as we keep talking, I'll think of more concrete things. ANDREW: Uh-huh. BARBARA: But, to start the conversation, [00:18:13] it, that's what it feels like for me. What's that feel like for you? ANDREW: I mean, lately, so like in the last year, I've been noticing [00:18:29] where I'm not putting energy, that I officially think that I'm putting energy right? Where do I feel a difference between, you [00:18:44] know, something that I'm excited about, you know? It doesn't, it doesn't make it difficult for me. It's not difficult for me to show up and make art in my studio. You know, making art is great. I mean, [00:18:59] it requires, it requires having some time, you know, and it requires, you know, ideally not having sick kids at home or whatever, like certain things, but it's pretty easy to make that commitment. [00:19:15] You know, I've been sort of in and out of relationship in terms of polyamory this year a bit, and one of the things that I noticed around some of that was, where I was [00:19:30] willing to put in a certain kind of effort or show up in a certain way in one situation, but not in another. You know, and to me, that starts to be like, okay, so if I'm, if I'm willing to make the extra time or [00:19:46] hang out with them if they're sick or, you know, whatever, but with somebody else, I'm not feeling that as much, then those kinds of decisions start to be little flags for me. It's like, not necessarily that it's the end, but it's, something needs to change there, right? Or something has changed [00:20:01] there, and I need to sort of look at that. Right? And I think that, I don't know that we ever notice the moment, right? Like I don't know if there's a, you know, barring like, really, you know: And I said something and then they smack me in the face and I said [00:20:16] "We're done," like, you know, unless it's, like, ridiculous and dramatic, which is, you know, never really my life. I don't think that we ever notice explicitly those moments. I think that we notice, we can notice [00:20:31] when we're wobbling along that line, and then we can sort of reflect and see what's coming. Or what makes sense from that point, you know? BARBARA: Right. Yes. Yeah. Yes, you're right. It's, it is hard [00:20:46] in these things to pick a point, as you said, and for most of it's probably more like a process, you know, that it takes some time and, but, sometimes even within that process you can find like little mini points, you know, [00:21:01] like, I remember, I remember admitting to myself . . . Because we'd already started talking about how California wasn't right for us. ANDREW: Uh-huh. BARBARA: And, so, the next question was, where do we go next? ANDREW: [00:21:16] Mm-hmm. Is the answer Tijuana? BARBARA: The answer is not Tijuana. ANDREW: Okay. BARBARA: I found myself not being super excited about thinking about where to go next. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: I knew I didn't want to be here. Didn't know where I want [00:21:31] to go So, I kind of made myself think about that, and in that moment, I had this realization that hit me very hard: I want to go home. [00:21:47] And that was hard to admit, and hard to feel, and hard to know, because I knew it wasn't going to fly for us, for us, my marriage, my, our family, our little, just the two of us were a family. [00:22:04] Because we didn't want the winters. We . . . The winters in Minnesota are just too, too, too much and we're not ready for that. But just knowing that, one of the things I learned during this adventure is my family [00:22:19] and my Minnesota friends are very important to me, like more important to me than I knew before I left. ANDREW: Hmm. BARBARA: And so that little, and that, so that was a mini, like, you know, moment. [00:22:35] And then, like, when I actually told Dylan that, that was another moment, because it was scary to say that, you know, for me, because it was like, I can't believe I'm gonna say this. Because one fear was, what if she says, “Okay, let's go [00:22:50] home,” and then I'm stuck in Minnesota winter again! But anyways, so, yeah, these little mini moments of, you know, revelation. Oh, and another thing that I have noticed. I don't know if you've had this too. But now that I feel like [00:23:05] I'm being more honest with myself, that we're on, we have some more clear direction on what the future is going to look like, synchronicities are happening. Like, I can barely like, take a breath without something, like [00:23:20] helping me feel like I'm on the right path. You know, and I've heard people talk about that, like well, if you're looking for it, of course, you're going to find it. You know, like cynics might say that. And other people might say, [00:23:35] “Well, yeah, that's a sign that you're on the right path.” I don't know if I'd quite go that far, because I'm not sure what I believe about the right path thing. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: Fate and destiny, that's going to be a focus of study this coming year. I'm very excited about it. ANDREW: [00:23:50] Well, you know, it's funny. I have those as listed, at the top of my list of things I want to follow up on in this conversation: agency, force, death, destiny, and free will. So we can, [00:24:05] we can set some explorations on it in this conversation and then, you know, a year from now we can report back as to where it's gotten. So yeah. BARBARA: Absolutely. Totally. Yes, right. So synchronicities, you know, [00:24:20] they always, I find them comforting, and encouraging, so whether they're actually real or not, it doesn't matter to me right now. I'm taking my comfort where I can get it. It's helping. ANDREW: So, and I think that, [00:24:35] first of all, I think, you know, as the song says, you know, whatever gets you through the night. Like, I think that finding comfort where we can is always, you know, as long as it's not too self-destructive. [00:24:51] I think it's always a great move, right? I think that, you know, this year of sort of moving through the fire and doing that has definitely been a year of more indulging- and comfort-orientated behavior [00:25:07] than is usual for me. And I'm just like, you know what? Life is fricking hard right now, so I'm not going to worry about that too much. And I'm just going to, you know, lean into that wherever and whenever I need to, you know, so there's been [00:25:22] more naps, more ice cream, and more TV this year than would normally be a thing for me, because sometimes that, you know, for me anyway, that's part of getting through these times, right? BARBARA: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: I think that, you know, [00:25:38] so, synchronicities are a thing that I am very interested in, especially because it's often touted as the explanation of how tarot works, also, right. You shuffle the cards and the universe [00:25:54] through synchronicity arranges them in a way that is meaningful. And, you know, it's kind of, it's kind of fine and fun as an answer unless you try and like [00:26:09] say, “What does synchronicity mean? How exactly does that function? And you know, is there anything behind that?” And then all of a sudden you just like slide into utter chaos of inexplicable mystery, right? And I think that that's fine. I have, for me, I'm [00:26:24] like, you know, mystery is the answer, right? I'm like, tarot runs on mystery. That's all we need to know about it. BARBARA: Right. ANDREW: Exactly, exactly, right? But, so, I think [00:26:39] that synchronicity is, you know, lots of people are really into numerology, and, you know, they're like . . . I've, you know, people come for readings, like, "I've been seeing lots of triple eight lately, or triple this, or triple . . ." [00:26:54] And I'm always like, "Well, that's cool. What does it mean?" And you know, it . . . And then they'll often say a thing followed by the question, which is usually, “So when is that going to manifest?” Right? [00:27:09] And so, you know, and I don't mean this to make fun of people, like I'm not at all, right? Like absolutely, there are those moments where like, “Oh, there's a sign. Okay, where's the, where's the product?” Right? “Where's, where's the actual outcome of that?” So, [00:27:24] sort of more and more over time, I've been, I've been looking at what it is that I believe, how I approach things, and thinking about . . . [00:27:39] You know, people always ask me, like, well, so “What's the, what's the astrology in the Orisha tradition?” Right? “What's the astrology in your Orisha practice?” And I'm like, there is none, it doesn't exist. Right? It's not a part of it at all. There's no, no consideration [00:27:54] given to it in any real sense. There, there is, notions around times of day, a bit, depending on what we're talking about, and if you practice in a syncretized kind [00:28:09] of way with the saints, then maybe certain Orishas have their day, right? You know, where many people celebrate them extra, but there is no astrology. And, and I've been noticing the sort [00:28:24] of growing tension for me between, like, astrology, which I stopped reading this year, and stepped away from and decided that I was going to actively not engage any more, and [00:28:39] the way in which I was feeling stressed and tense around that stuff some, and the fact that it's not actually a part of my religious practice at all. Right? And I'm kind of the same with, like, some of the [00:28:54] synchronicity stuff, you know? There have been times in my life where I was very intense on that kind of stuff and, you know, thought about it and wrote about it, had a bunch of experiences with it. And now there's [00:29:09] basically only one symbol from the universe that I'm interested in. Well, there's a couple. One, but the synchronous thing, or the thing that I think fits this way, is if I find a playing card on the street, [00:29:24] then for me, that's a message, and I will interpret the card based on my knowledge of reading them and we'll go from there. Right? The other thing that is synchronous, you know, from a certain perspective, but I see it as more directly as a message [00:29:39] from spirit, which kind of has a different definition in my mind. So, like, three months ago, maybe a little less, I broke up [00:29:54] with someone that I'd been with for a long time. We decided to change the nature of our relationship. And it was very kind and very honest. And you know, and the relationship has changed into [00:30:10] a really good friendship, which is lovely. But about two days after I . . . that happened, I found a robin's nest on the ground with three dead eggs in it like broken eggs, right? And I was [00:30:25] like, everyone's like, “Oh, that's just so . . .” I'm like “No, this is just sad and unpleasant,” right? You know? And I was just like, yeah, that's, that's, that's definitely acknowledging like the depth of the disruption that's happened here. And, [00:30:40] and so, you know, I took that, I picked up the nest, and I saved it, and you know, it's around still. And, and then, maybe three weeks ago, two weeks ago, [00:30:55] I was walking through this laneway that I identify with the spirit that I work with a lot. And there was a pigeon on, like sort of flopping around a bit, with this, what looked like a branch [00:31:10] wrapped around its neck, and I'm like, "Oh, how am I going to free this poor bird? Is it going to let me get close enough to liberate it?" And as I got a little closer, the bird, I realized, was actually holding onto the branch. It was not stuck by it. [00:31:25] And it flew up and it flew directly up over my head, circled maybe like five feet above my head, three times, and literally dropped the branch into my hands. BARBARA: No way! ANDREW: And I was like, "Perfect, now [00:31:40] there's a new nest. Now I'm going to build something new. Now I've moved on, internally, I've moved on," right? BARBARA: Ohhhh . . . ANDREW: So to me, these are events that I take as as close to synchronous as people usually mean by that, right? [00:31:55] You know, direct message from somewhere else, right? And to me, they are clear, and concrete, and so on, in a way that, you know, not to diminish anybody else's experience, but [00:32:10] that those other kinds of symbols, I'm not sure what they mean, right? At least in my life, you know? And so, yeah, but also, you know there have been plenty of times in my life, where I'm like, [00:32:25] "Oh, yeah, I saw that, I saw that number again. I'm on the right path. I'm on the right path," you know? And I think that that's fair too, I think I just have a different relationship to it now, and I have a different set of expectations maybe. So. BARBARA: [00:32:40] Yeah. Okay, great. It all makes sense. And I love the story about the pigeon. Oh my God, I'm still stuck on that. Anyways, yeah. So, synchronicity, like levels of synchronicity, or is it [00:32:55] synchronicity, or is it a message from the divine, are they two different things? Those are really great questions. I think I agree with you. I think there is a difference between them. And, like synchronicity, I mean, I think the actual definition of it is like two [00:33:11] disconnected things that seem to have a connection. And I think that we humans are the ones who give that connection or give that meaning, so, so maybe what, why it's comforting to me is because if I [00:33:26] see something that brings to mind something else that's connected with what I'm doing at the time, or going through or thinking about, it just helps remind me that that's where my attention is. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: So, you know, maybe it's just this, a [00:33:41] way of like stoking the fire, like, yes, this is what my intention is. This is what I want to think about. You know, but on a kind of more subtle level or something. And then, you know, messages from the divine, then, I think, are kind of different. [00:33:57] You mentioned finding the cards, playing cards, specifically playing cards on the street is pretty funny. It reminds me of . . . Dylan has something that she has always called parking lot divination, and she started it when she was [00:34:12] a book cover designer at Llewellyn. Now, as you could imagine, the trash cans, the big garbage bins outside of Llewellyn, sometimes would have cards in them, for, you know, if a package had been damaged or whatever. [00:34:27] And so, sometimes, I guess, they would blow around and she would always walk around the building, you know, for exercise every day. And so sometimes she would come across these random cards on the, you know, and she would always pick them up and they would mean, she would read them as [00:34:42] a divination, and she still does that to this day, and she finds a surprising number of playing cards just out and about in the streets. It's very strange. So, so yeah. ANDREW: They're definitely around. BARBARA: Yeah. ANDREW: The other thing [00:34:57] that's funny is I almost never find a whole deck. A couple times I have. Yeah, and often I'll find them clustered for periods of time, you know, like I will find [00:35:12] different, different cards in different places for a couple months, and then I'll find nothing for six months. BARBARA: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: And then I'll start finding them again, which is also, to me, interesting. Yeah. BARBARA: Huh. I have another kind of [00:35:27] a symbol story, and you know, does it mean something? Or does it mean nothing? Or did I give it meaning or whatever? That . . . it's a story that I wanted to tell you, you know, any, at some point today, anyways . . . ANDREW: Yeah. BARBARA: Cause it's very, it was very significant [00:35:42] to me. So, So, okay. How to tell the story? Okay. So, Dylan is not going to be here at Christmas. She's actually flying back to Minnesota for Christmas. I'm going to be [00:35:57] here alone, which is great because I have a whole, you know, personal retreat planned and ritual, and all kinds of crazy great stuff, but because of that, we did our little personal celebration on Sunday. And, [00:36:12] but we had agreed on no presents because of reasons. And, but she said, "But, I do have one present that I actually started the process for it a few months ago. So, there'll be [00:36:27] the one present." I'm like, “Okay, I can, I can let you give me a present, no problem.” ANDREW: Uh-huh. BARBARA: And so, well, so the back story that you need to know to understand the present [00:36:42] is: When we got married, she gave me a necklace, and it suited me perfectly, it was meaningful and beautiful and we both loved it. And it was just, it was [00:36:57] like a symbol, one of the many symbols of us. ANDREW: Uh-huh. BARBARA: And in May, we were, we were out at the coast. I was taking a watercolor class, and we'd gone together, and I brought the necklace but I didn't, [00:37:12] I don't sleep in it. So I, you know, just take it off, and I, you know, put it somewhere, then . . . Long story short, it got left in the hotel, and when we called the hotel, they're like, “No, it's not in the room.” You know? So, [00:37:27] I mourned that necklace. I cried, it felt, it felt symbolic. It felt like “Oh my God, our marriage is,” you know? It's, it just made me so sad because [00:37:42] things had been hard, we're working through some things, and I just took it as this horrible, horrible omen, and it just broke my heart. And the company, [00:37:57] we couldn't find, it looks like the company didn't make the necklace anymore, so I couldn't even get a replacement, and it was just horrible, horrible. Well, so Christmas comes, present time. She gives me a . . . Okay. So she brings me a card and a little, little present and I opened the card and I start [00:38:12] reading it and I start bawling because she's written some stuff that is breaking my heart in a good way. And she's like, “Well, since you're crying, hold on, we'll just keep going.” And she goes in the other room and brings out a different package [00:38:27] and I start opening it. And it's wrapped in this kind of a gift baggy thing that we've had for years and we only use it for a very special gift. And . . . ANDREW: That's really sweet. BARBARA: It [00:38:42] is, it is, we haven't used it in a number of years because you know, it hasn't been like that. And so, she, I start opening it. And then inside it is a bag from Arthur's Jewelers, Arthur's Jewelers [00:38:57] is the Jewelers in St. Paul where we got like our wedding rings from, and if we ever get like actual real jewelry, which we don't have a lot of, but we get it from them, and as I saw the bag and I'm like, she got me jewelry, what? And, and, then all of a sudden [00:39:12] I knew what was in that bag and I have never ripped the package open so fast in my life, and it was the necklace. And I saw it, and I have, I cried like my [00:39:27] soul was, I don't know what was going on. But I've only cried like that like maybe three times in my life, and it felt like a symbol, you know, like a sign like, okay, like, you lost [00:39:42] it. You guys were in the like, the three days of death or the three days after death, like, you know, in the bowels of hell fighting the demon, and now you're done, and now you, you know, you have the same, it's a new necklace, but it's the same necklace. It, [00:39:57] so, it's kind of like our marriage. It's the same marriage, but it's a new marriage and it was hard won. And until I lost it, I didn't realize how much it meant to me, and, you know, so, [00:40:12] I felt like the necklace, was always symbolic, the loss of it was symbolic, the reacquiring of it was symbolic. So that's another thing entirely, you know, was that divine? Was that something we, [00:40:27] that . . . I don't know. How did that happen? ANDREW: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, I think that, I think that the answer is probably always really complex, right? You know, I mean, people, [00:40:43] you know, people talk about like, the fire, right? Me having the fire. They're like, “Well, you know, maybe it happened for a reason so you could whatever.” And I'm always like, "I don't, I don't buy that answer at all.” Right? I mean, you know, that [00:40:58] said, right? I think that, like many things, I hold sort of contradictory ideas about it, right? And in myself, they seem fine to be contradictory, right? I know that, [00:41:13] you know, in some ways, that the fire must have been a part of my destiny, in some sense, because of the advice of the Orishas in the time around it, right? You know, we have this [00:41:29] kind of source of negativity, which is Otonowa, which means that which we brought with you from heaven, right? And sometimes it means, sometimes it means that literally. Maybe sometimes [00:41:44] it stands for things that just can't be changed and we have to work through in one way or another, but, you know, this was part of my advice from the Orishas around that time. So, I'm like, well, fair enough, something was going on there, in that regard. [00:41:59] But also like, the idea that, you know, I talked about this, I think in the last episode too with Chiron Armand, you know, the idea that we are always progressing towards other things, or better things, and [00:42:14] so on. I don't necessarily believe that, either, right? I think that, you know, we can look at people's lives and see that that doesn't happen, sometimes, right? Sometimes it does. Sometimes it doesn't. And the reasons for that are, [00:42:29] you know, complex and, you know, and always a bit obscure as well. Right? Why does, why does one experience sort of break a person in a way that they don't recover from? And why does it, you know, [00:42:44] you know, just deeply bruise or wound or maybe not even apparently sort of injure another person, right? You know, there's such a diversity amongst us all and why that is the case, right? But for me, I look at [00:42:59] these situations and I think that it becomes a question of what do we, what do, you know, there's, if we want to call it fate or whatever, those, those experiences that are beyond our apparent control, right? [00:43:14] Or that are the unexpected byproduct of decisions that we have made, maybe in the case of a relationship, that might sort of give the appearance of fate, and might coincide with synchronicities, right? That moment when you lost the necklace and it cued you to, [00:43:29] you know, all of the bigger changes that were going on, right? And then there's the question of what do we do with it? Right? You know? And I think that that is also, you know, such a big distinction, [00:43:44] right? You know? And like, me ending up in the situation that I'm in now, which is in many ways more ideal than the situation I was in with the store. You know? Or where the store was at, at the time of the fire. You know, on the one hand, [00:43:59] yeah, that's, it's great that it's, that it's sort of working out really well, but also there's a, there's a lot of it that's really, was already in my two year plan. You [00:44:14] know? Like I was already thinking about these ideas and working on them. And so, some of this transformation, you know, I'm just going to take credit for, by saying, you know, like look, I had these ideas that because of the [00:44:31] concreteness of having the store were going to take me a long time to make shift, that in some ways the fire basically just liquidated my assets into cash and allowed me to transform it, you know, [00:44:46] and applying it towards those plans. You know? There's that, that sort of balance of agency, free will, and the intersection of fate, right? Because I think that what we, what we do when things happen is, [00:45:02] you know, is important, and makes a big difference in that, you know? And I think that the more we cultivate a capacity to, you know, to make good decisions during those times, [00:45:17] you know, the better that can go and so on, right? So, anyway, I don't know, I don't know if that makes any sense at all. But . . . BARBARA: Oh, yeah. Well, as you say, these things get confusing to talk about, so, yeah, I think yeah, insofar [00:45:32] as it can make sense, it totally makes sense. And, kind of, almost kind of connected with that is, you know, this, the idea [00:45:47] of like judging something as good or bad. Okay. It's, and it's kind of connected with the idea, “Oh, it happened for a reason.” Well, I mean first of all, almost everything does happen for a reason because cause and effect exists. And you know, so there was a reason, [00:46:02] but I know people are talking about a grander reason then electrical faultiness or whatever. So, things happen for a reason, maybe, you know, they . . . Things happen, [00:46:17] is what what it is, and trying to judge whether they're good or bad. I mean, we want to do that because that's what we do because we're binary beings, I guess, you know like, “Oh, that's good. That's bad.” I mean, people always say [00:46:32] what they think, but you can't always tell if something's actually good or bad in the long run until time has passed, because there have been things that I went through that I wouldn't want to go through again, [00:46:47] but I'm glad they happened, because then XYZ happened, not saying it happened for a reason, you know, like because it didn't magically do anything. It also ties kind of into what you're saying, your own agency and own preparedness, [00:47:02] your own, you know, strength of will, whatever you want to say, you know, you can bring that to it and turn things around. But it's also one of the things that bothered me, puzzled me about these, you know, more everyday readings, you know, like, people are like, “Well, [00:47:17] you know, I'm thinking of taking this job. Should I take this job?” And you know, I mean, I don't know about you, but like if I'm looking into the future, I'm not real comfortable looking more than six months out. I just don't. [00:47:32] And you know, so if I'm, you know, do a reading and it's like, well, yeah, the job says this, this, and this, and maybe some things they consider not good and then they don't take it. But if they took it, then it would [00:47:47] have led to XYZ. So, you know, just, we don't always know. We think we know what we want in the short term. We think we know what our goals are. Oh, I want to manifest this, I want to do this, if the cards say it's all going to be positive. [00:48:02] I think we lose something in that, because not everything we do has to be completely positive or successful to be worthwhile or to be part of a larger journey that might be more worthwhile. ANDREW: Right. BARBARA: Does that make sense? ANDREW: It does. [00:48:17] I mean, I think that, I think that the question of like, you know, one of the questions that I've been thinking about for a while, specifically around, you know, my work life, is like, what's enough? Right? [00:48:32] At what point, at what point am I successful enough? I mean, to put it in really basic terms, at what point am I making enough money? And what, what is it that I would like from going beyond that point? Right? You know? And I think [00:48:47] that, you know, working for yourself is not like kind of getting into a job description position that you like and just sort of like, "perfect, if I just stay in this job till I retire, that's great," because working for yourself doesn't really work that way, and I'm not sure the economy works that way [00:49:02] that much anymore anyway. But you know, but I think that we have these sort of notions of progress, of enlightenment, of, you know, all those kinds of ideas that are, you know, cultural [00:49:17] to capitalism and you know, like cultural to North America and so on, maybe, that, that I think are questionable how helpful they are, right? You know, like, [00:49:32] I don't, I don't know that . . . Like mostly what I'm interested in is making art, making more art, making more art, and doing the things that supports [00:49:47] that, right? And you know, like, I love running the store. I love doing readings for people. But I think that like, the idea of it sort of going anywhere. I'm like, well, I [00:50:02] don't know where, I don't know where it goes, and what the definition of where it goes, and what the grand plan is. I just want to, you know, do my practice, which is, you know, making art and reading cards for people, and just continue to do that. And I think that, you know, [00:50:17] that you're right, that it's hard to say, on a big arc of time, what might be good or what might be difficult. You know, like if we get, if we take a job, maybe it's crummy for six months and then it's great [00:50:32] after that, and so on. But I also feel like the idea of persevering through stuff towards an outcome. I'm really [00:50:47] less and less interested in that these days, you know? If something, if something, if the exchange isn't good in the short term, then I don't, you know, I don't, I'm not really that interested in sort of engaging in that [00:51:02] to get to a theoretically better long-term, you know? And, and I think that, I think a lot of people, especially around relationships, right, sort of work through, try to work through stuff, [00:51:17] you know, to get to . . . Especially newer relationships, right? Like maybe if you've been with somebody for a while as you have been, that, you know, there's a, there's a different math around, like, well, I was involved for this long. [00:51:32] And so now I'm willing to commit a longer stretch of time to working on things. BARBARA: Right. ANDREW: But, but, I think that for me, I'm like, I'm not that interested in working on very much these days in those kinds of ways, you know, and if something isn't [00:51:47] flowing, I don't have the, I haven't seen the value of spending the resilience and capacity on working hard at stuff that is difficult [00:52:03] towards accomplishing longer term goals without making a change, right? You know, I think about it like Crowley talks about the Strength card or the Lust card in his tarot deck, right? And, and I think [00:52:18] that he draws a distinction in his writing on it, where he says that, you know, lust is not the absence of effort, right? It's not the absence of exertion. It is the absence of noticing the exertion, right? [00:52:33] Or something along those lines, right? And that idea that, you know, if we don't mind the work that we're not going to notice it, right? BARBARA: Right. ANDREW: And if we do mind the work, well, then, maybe we need to, maybe that's one of those cues to make a change, right? [00:52:49] BARBARA: Yeah, that's gorgeous. And if you follow it, like if that's kind of a guideline that you're following for your life right now, as you were saying, then you probably [00:53:04] wouldn't be doing readings on things so much, because if you're like, I'm, I'm going with how things feel now, you are attune enough to yourself to know what you're . . . You know, [00:53:19] so you probably would need less readings because you're paying attention to your energy and how you're feeling and what you're doing and the effort and the payoff. Is that true or not true? ANDREW: That's true. [00:53:35] Trueish. I mean, I think that there are always practical considerations that are difficult, right? You know? [00:53:50] Dealing, dealing with insurance companies after having had a fire. It's like, man, nobody wants to insure you, right? It's like, it's difficult. And so, there are . . . For me, there are always practical questions, [00:54:05] and, you know, questions along the lines of, is there anything that I can do to make this better, to make it happen, especially because I have a very strong practical magical practice, right? You know, so there are those kinds of questions. [00:54:20] But really the question that I ask more often than not, these days, is either something along the lines of like well, should I run my Tarot de Marseilles class in January, or should I run my other course, [00:54:35] right? Like very sort of strategic business kind of things? Or a question, the question I go back to most of the time, is how do I show up fully today? How do [00:54:50] I show up fully in this situation? Right? BARBARA: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: And you know, and for me, that's a question that I've kind of come to answer by a sort of multi-step open-ended [00:55:07] kind of practice. Right? Like I don't, I no longer just kind of, if I'm going to read cards for myself in that way, I don't like just draw a card or two cards for the answer. I'll usually draw start with drawing a playing card, [00:55:22] checking in with my guides and ancestors, drawing three trumps from the, from a Marseilles deck, reading those in light of what's already been set in motion in the early part of the reading, and then [00:55:38] drawing a card from my Land of the Sacred Self Oracle that I self-published. And doing some writing on that, and then usually photographing that, and then drawing, doing, drawing back into it [00:55:53] and embellishing it further, and then at some point, that feels finished. So, like that's the, the process that I do when I do that stuff. And you know, it's all, if you, if people were to look at it, which I'm not [00:56:08] going to share it anywhere. But anyway, if people were to look at it, you'd be like, wow. I don't know what sense this makes a lot of time because a lot of it is very nonlinear and very, you know, like a lot of channeled reading, writing, you know, like, [00:56:23] and so on. But at the end of the process, I'm like, “Oh, now, now I'm aligned for the day, and now I know how I stay aligned for the day. You know for this project or whatever.” Right? So . . . yeah. BARBARA: Yeah, well and yeah, [00:56:38] that sounds like a good process, and I think like, some, I've heard people, you know, say, “Oh, I can't read for myself.” And I think sometimes part of that is they don't read for themselves the way they read [00:56:53] for somebody else. Like they give themself short shrift. You know, they won't go through the whole process, just throw the cards, look at them, go, and then pick them up and put them away. You know, it's different. I think if you treat [00:57:08] yourself as if you were, how you would treat a client . . . ANDREW: For sure and I think if you're going to read for yourself around practical considerations, you just need to have a lot of discipline, right? You know? For me when I read for myself [00:57:23] around practical considerations, it's actually usually really short because I'm like, like, you know, it's whatever. The Tower card says, this is a horrible idea. Don't go down this road. It's like, it's like, it's the end of the conversation. Just stop [00:57:38] there, you know, because the more I talk about it, the more I might try and talk myself into it or think that I have agency where, where the Tower says it doesn't, you know? And so on and so on, right? So but for me, yeah, it's like, you know, there's a short list of [00:57:53] sort of core meaning that I would attribute to every card that if I want to read for myself, I'm going to hold hard to that no matter whether I like it or not, whether it even makes sense or not to me, and be like, “All right, the card says that [00:58:08] someone's going to really betray you here, 10 of Swords. It's like, well, all right, let's not go there then.” Well, so I'm going to go instead, “What else can I do?” You know? Yeah. BARBARA: I think that's important too when you especially, well, like your first practice was more of [00:58:23] an internal deeper kind of a reading. And now we're talking about practical readings, and I think one of the reasons we want to do a practical reading is because we want to bypass our head, because we keep thinking [00:58:38] about it, and we keep justifying, and we know we're justifying, or making excuses and we know we're making excuses. So, you do this reading and keep it short and hold yourself to it. It helps bypass all of that, but you're right, if you start thinking about it, like, well, the Tower [00:58:53] can be, you know, how we can sometimes spin things. ANDREW: Carl Jung thinks of buildings as being a symbol of our ego and our persona in the world, maybe I just need to change the way I approach this, so that I can have a different experience of this and then I can learn [00:59:08] and grow and blah blah blah. It's like, no. Still gonna get hit by the lightning. Definitely don't like that. Thank you, but I'll pass. Right? BARBARA: Yeah. ANDREW: For sure. BARBARA: Or someone wants to know, "Oh, I started dating someone, how is it going to go?" Five of Wands. "Oh, it's going to be so exciting [00:59:23] and fun!" And you know, it's like, one of the exercises I would give beginner students is, for reading for themselves, is okay, before you do a reading, the question, you know your question, and you know what answer [00:59:38] you want. ANDREW: Yeah. BARBARA: Go through the deck and just like, if you don't already have the meanings, like you have, for reading for yourself. This is new people, go through the deck and you know pull out the cards that you think would make that answer. ANDREW: Yeah. BARBARA: And then [00:59:53] shuffle your cards--and make note of them--shuffle your cards again, and then do your reading, and then if, you know, the Two of Cups, Ten of Cups, whatever doesn't come up. It can be like, "Well, okay. This isn't one of the answer cards. [01:00:08] This is a different answer." And it's a way to kind of discipline, discipline yourself, which is what you said when we started. ANDREW: Sure. Yeah. No, exactly. Well. It's like, you know, I think that that approach is, you know, really [01:00:23] helpful for a lot of things, right? And especially for, you know, I mean not everybody reads for, for everything, you know, but I do. Right? Like I don't really have limits around what I'll read for, you know, for [01:00:38] the most part. So, like, if someone's like, well, am I going to get pregnant, right? Am I going to conceive? Well, I have a short, short list of cards that answer yes to that, right? There's only like three or four of them, [01:00:53] depending on the deck I'm working with, and if those cards don't show up, then I'm going to say, "The cards don't give you a solid yes." Right? And you know, the same with the question people are like, “Am I cursed?” I'm like, “It happens, magic is real. I believe [01:01:08] it,” you know. But there's, there's only a couple of cards in the deck that are going to answer affirmatively to, to me around that, and my expectation is that the mystery will surface those cards, so that the answer feels unequivocal, [01:01:24] you know. And I think that that's also a practice that is a bit hair-raising when people are starting, but I think that, you know, as we talk about it, I realize how many different kinds of questions I have a very short list of [01:01:39] cards that I would take as a solid answer to, you know, and I think that that's a really helpful way maybe to, to avoid feeling ambiguous about the readings that you're giving, right? BARBARA: Right. ANDREW: So, yeah. [01:01:56] All right. Well, maybe, is there something else you want to add? I see you looking like you're gonna . . . BARBARA: Yes, I, there's one, like, I kind of said that I was going to be studying fate and destiny in the coming year. ANDREW: Yeah. BARBARA: The other thing I'm [01:02:11] looking forward to is, over this past year, I've heard a couple of people refer to mythic living, like I should know what that means, and I don't, and I've asked a couple of people, you know, "Well, what do you mean by [01:02:26] that?" And I haven't gotten, I was, kept getting this idea that it was like, where you just live really big and loud and you know, mythically legendary, you know? And, but . . . I read something a couple weeks ago that made me think okay, you got that wrong, obviously, [01:02:42] and what this blog said was, it's when you understand the mythic rhythms of life, things that happen, the mythic, well, [01:02:57] anyways, you know what I mean. And when you understand them and when you can learn where you are in your life in terms of a mythic story, or cycle, then you can learn how to live within that. [01:03:12] Have you ever heard anything like that? What do you think of that? ANDREW: I mean, isn't that how people feel about the hero's journey? BARBARA: It's the whole, yes, exactly. Okay. So similar thing. ANDREW: I think, right. I mean, I've my [01:03:27] own ideas about mythic stuff, but we'll save that for later, for another time, maybe. But I think that, I think that [01:03:42] the idea of sort of myths as true guides to our, to our lives, or as, you know, true models of experience, in the same way that I think of this sort of way in [01:03:57] which people sometimes default to astrology, and sometimes default to other ways of creating definition. I think they're, I think that there is value in them, and there are [01:04:12] values in those stories, you know? And as a person who practices a religion that is based on, we could say, has a huge swath of it that's based on stories, right? You know, nobody, nobody [01:04:27] in my tradition would tell you . . . Well, no, nobody with a solid grounding in reality would tell you that, you know, as a child of Shango, I'm gonna live the life, live the myths of Shango, [01:04:42] right? You know? And you know, and I think that this idea that, that sort of these myths define the arc of human experience, right? I think [01:04:57] it's pretty questionable. I think that there is truth in it, right? You know, like the, the myth of Percival, which is so popular amongst, you know, Western initiatory stuff, [01:05:12] right? It's like, there are pieces of that that are true, and valuable, and you see most people encounter in some way, right? Like, you know, once the, once the hero decides to go on their journey, something arises to distract them, right? You know, [01:05:27] Kundria arrives to distract Percival from pursuing whatever, right? But the idea that every myth ends with, you know, “Oh, you are the person you were searching for all along and you had it with you the whole time.” [01:05:42] I don't think that's true at all. Right? I see lots of people whose lives are, are not that way, right? And, you know, and yet, the, the, questions that arise from looking at that myth a bit, like what would, what would distract you from your deeper commitment? [01:05:57] Right? In what ways are you not already acknowledging your gifts, you know? And so on, right? Like those, those are powerful questions, but as sort of models for, for sort of promoting everybody's [01:06:12] experience, you know, it's like the hero's journey. I'm just kind of like, I'm like, "Yeah, maybe, for some people, some of the time," but then we're back to this question of like, agency and free will and how much does our expectation that is the course that we're going to [01:06:27] continue on then shape the course that we live afterwards, right? And I think that, yeah, so. But yeah, so I think that that's a really mixed bag [01:06:42] of things, you know, for me, you know? And probably because I did not come out of tarot from that sort of Angeles Aryan, sort of archetypes of people, you know, archetypes are what's behind [01:06:57] tarot piece, but came from a sort of practical magical and sort of ceremonial background into this stuff and then into a non-Western tradition religiously. I always look at those pieces, and I'm kind of like, eh? [01:07:12] I get it. I see it. Like I can see how you see it. And I can see how it's there, but it's like, what it's defined as, seems overstated or, or incomplete in some way to me, [01:07:27] in a way that I've never been able to reconcile it, or kind of close the loop on it. So yeah. BARBARA: I guess that's why there's a lot of different approaches because . . . ANDREW: Yeah. BARBARA: Some work for some people and some work for others [01:07:42]. ANDREW: Exactly, right, you know, and it's, of course, it's not to say that, you know, if people find value in that, fantastic, right? BARBARA: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: You know, please, please don't write me, I don't need to have this conversation again. I've had it so many times, you know? But no, not [01:07:57] that, not talking, talking about you, but like, but yeah, it's like I've had many people, very smart people try to convince me. Or want to have conversations around convincing me about it. Like it's not my jam. I just, I just don't, I just don't jive with it, so we could just go [01:08:12] talk about other things instead, right? BARBARA: Right, or yeah, because that's not a really interesting conversation, because trying to convince someone who has, especially someone who has a perfectly workable system, you know, and they're not like [01:08:27] asking for advice or looking for a new way to live or think. It's just evangelizing, and why do you, why . . . Just because you believe something is true, the, the other person doesn't have to think it's true. [01:08:42] That doesn't diminish its worth for you. You know, you don't, everyone doesn't have to believe the same thing. ANDREW: Exactly. BARBARA: You know, what might be more interesting would be to say, "Well, let's talk about what I think and what you think and see if there are any parallels and maybe talk about where they [01:08:57] differ. And isn't that interesting? And why is that?" You know. ANDREW: No, for sure. Yeah. I'm curious to hear what your explorations of mythicness deliver to you, bring to you, over time, though, for sure. BARBARA: I [01:09:12] know. I have a feeling that next year, next fall, our conversation is going to be super interesting. I mean not that these haven't been, but these have been personal, and hard, and important, and [01:09:28] valuable, but I think for next fall, we might, our listeners might get a treat of something different. ANDREW: Or maybe they'll just get a lovely, what are we at now, fourth helping, fifth helping of, you know, [01:09:43] whatever this is. But yeah, we'll figure it out. We'll, time will tell. BARBARA: That's right. ANDREW: Well, thanks for making time again, Barbara. I appreciate it as always. BARBARA: I do too. I love these conversations. ANDREW: Me too!
The Hermit's Lamp Podcast - A place for witches, hermits, mystics, healers, and seekers
Andrew and Chiron discuss shaman sickness, transformation, and growth – and all the things that pretend to be those real experiences. They discuss authenticity, how to discern if an experience in real, and approaching spirits. They also get into talking about the invitation to collude with with the problematic elements of our histories and the world in general. They also recorded a bonus recording where we revisit the theme of shade and Chiron shares a bath anyone could do to clear themselves and do some healing. This can be found by becoming a Patreon supporter here. If you want more of this in your life you can subscribe by RSS , iTunes, Stitcher, or email. You can find Chiron on FB here and on his website here. Thanks for joining the conversation. Please share the podcast to help us grow and change the world. Andrew You can book time with Andrew through his site here. Transcription. Andrew: Welcome to another episode of The Hermit's Lamp podcast. I am here today with Chiron Armand to talk about everything because one of the things that I appreciate having followed their orbit for a while is they do a lot of different stuff. They practice a lot of different traditions. But I think that one of the things that's inspired me about having them on is they seem, from my point of view, to do it with a lot of integrity, which I think is something that can be very difficult or sometimes just totally lacking when people are involved in a variety of different paths. But for people who might not know who you are, who are you Chiron? Tell me a little bit about yourself. Chiron: I'm a dude from Queens, 33 years old as of the time that we are recording this. I'm a Taurus with a Pisces rising and Leo moon, Venus [inaudible 00:01:04] Mars in Capricorn and I happen to be a spirit initiated shamanic healer with some initiations in a few other traditions including Haitian Voodoo as in Malidoma Somé. I am the founder of impactshamanism.com and I've written a couple of books on magic and am hoping to move more into my artistic life because I also have a background in the arts and academia that has been not as flourishing as I would've liked it to be over the past few years as I've gone through various virtual experiences and stuff, but I'm finally regaining my footing when it comes to which parts of my expression that are ratchet and nerdy and all that. Social media has been a fun place to remember aspects of myself that I haven't been able to play with [inaudible 00:02:01]. Andrew: Yeah, it's always interesting. I find that for sure, as time goes on, things come back. Right? I mean, I went to art school right out of high school, graduated art school and I was like, "Fuck this business." The art scene's horrible. And I [inaudible 00:02:21] for a long time. But those pieces return, right? Which I think is interesting. And it's interesting how and when they return as well. Chiron: A former teacher of mine would say, "Nothing true is ever lost." And that is something that's been really near and dear to my heart. Especially if you are someone who has experienced a lot of loss or a lot of initiatory descents, it'd be really scary because you're in the becoming of something new, perhaps even over and over and over again. But things come back, things come back and its really beautiful when they do for sure. Andrew: Let's talk about that, the initiatory descent. Tell me what you mean by that because not everybody's necessarily going to know that term or have and idea about it. Chiron: Sure. When I'm speaking of initiation, I'm generally speaking of one of three different kinds of things, but number one, the most important thing when I'm thinking about initiation is was the initiation efficacious. So, I'm talking about what we often consider to be initiation, the idea of a spiritual teacher, a priestess, a mambo or ouanga or something or tata. I have been initiated into [inaudible 00:03:52] initiated into Palo. I have been [inaudible 00:03:58] human beings who had certain licenses who then put me through a ritual process on the other side of which I became someone new. And my experience of being initiated into certain traditions, there are some similarities no matter what. There's often some kind of a stripping of way of that which you were. [inaudible 00:04:22] it shows up in different ways. I often think of the myth of the descent of Inanna. You have this springtime goddess who's moving through these, I believe, seven portals into the underworld. At each stage she literally, she's having an accessory of piece of clothing removed. So, initiation can happen under the tutelage of a spiritual teacher. Initiation is also something that life is doing to us all the time. We go through these cycles [inaudible 00:04:56] life grabs us by the neck and we lose things. We experience a divorce. Our house burns down. We lose a job that we've had for 30 years. We are being forced through a death experience on the other side of which is rebirth, but first you have to recognize that the death is happening, surrender to it and if you don't do that, and we don't, we resist it, we're like, "Oh fuck no. I like this amount of money. I like this lifestyle. I like this person who is probably not too great for me." We all love, we have a very death resistant culture. Andrew: Or even if you don't like it, that experience of I don't actually know what else to do. Chiron: I don't know [crosstalk 00:05:45] Andrew: This is all I can see and I don't know what else there would be if I let go of these things. Chiron: Absolutely. And side note, one of the things that's been really interesting to me as I'm trying to make sense of some of our societal ills, I have been looking a lot at what I consider to be a certain individual and collective stagnancy that occurs that makes us particular vulnerable to possession through our refusal, individually and collectively, to die, to die, to die well and become something new. If you've been avoiding a good death energetically for 30 years, then you're just a really stale individual and just like water that is stagnant, it's going to attract flies. So, that's just a side note. Life is always trying to... There's obviously initiation by spiritual teachers. There's the idea that life is always supposed to be trying to initiate us. Also, there's another piece here that's between spiritual teachers and life, which is I am a strong believer that we are supposed to be initiated into adulthood, the killing off of the child self. That does not occur in our culture. That's another staleness view of us all as wounded children walking around in adult bodies and that's not cool. And then the third initiatory kind of stuff I'm talking about is spirit initiatory stuff that sometimes a god shows up or a deity or a spirit or even an energy. I think that this doesn't get any play, but it happens. A craft can come and initiate you. Suddenly, you start seeing books about knitting everywhere and you're like, "Whoa, I am dreaming about knitting," and sure, that can be backed up by weaving deities and the lineage of grandmother spirits who are [crosstalk 00:07:50] Andrew: [crosstalk 00:07:50] ancestors, right? For sure. Chiron: Exactly. And energy, whether it be deity or ancestral energy or even a gift can absolutely move into our life in a shocking and overwhelming way, demanding our attention, demanding that we bring our attention to it and that can be very harrowing. Andrew: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Well, and I think that those kinds of transformations on all levels and they're not easy usually. Sometimes they are. I mean, I've been through initiations. When I spent my time in the OTO doing Crowley derived ceremonial stuff, I would always know that I was ready for the next initiation because I had a dream about it, that I was literally walking into the temple and there I am and some of the elements after on the other side of the initiation, I was like, "Oh yeah. Look at that." There's not the whole piece but it's pieces of it in the dream state and it was very interesting to have those [inaudible 00:09:10] and in that case, the work was often impacting me ahead of time. It would start. I'd be like, "Oh, I can feel the itch. The next initiation's coming because there's some turmoil here," and then I have the dream and then I work on the turmoil and then I have the dream about the ceremony and then at some point not too long after usually, then I get the call where it's like, "All right, we've coordinated a date for you. You'll show up on this date and we'll do the thing." And then in that case, the formal side was more of a cap on the work. Like a completion of the work and an opening to whatever is next. Chiron: You can totally feel that door just starting to become [inaudible 00:09:56] if you have dreams, energy of slightly discomfort, a new opening is beginning. Andrew: I'm always curious about this from people because to be completely honest, I am somewhat cynical about spirit led initiation. Not because I don't believe it's true and not because I don't believe it happens, but because of all you need to do is go on the internet and all the BS that shakes out from that sometimes. Chiron: [crosstalk 00:10:35] Andrew: From your point of view, how does a person who's feeling a connection with an entity, with an ancestor, with the stuff, how do they differentiate between an ego thing, between something that's real versus maybe getting in their own shadow and ego stuff. Chiron: Get good divination, preferably from someone with a spirit centered practice. I say that because there are so many different kinds of diviners and I love all of them. I love us all. Kind of. That's the shade part that we were talking about. Andrew: We'll get to the shade part later. Chiron: Well, I have to allow myself to be bitchy where I think it serves. There are so many amazing diviners. There are individuals who use tarot in very psychological model. I myself have benefited from spirit workers who are psychotherapists. We're all intuitive. Sometimes I have to get out of being spirit centered. I have absolutely benefited from friends of mine who are far more grounded in Midgard, in middle world who say, "Chi. Chi, get [inaudible 00:11:59] fucking 401K Chi, 401K." [crosstalk 00:12:03] Andrew: [crosstalk 00:12:03] do your taxes. Chiron: Exactly, do your fucking taxes, Chi. But I think that when someone is thinking I might be encountering the numinous in a profound way, then go to someone who is grounded, who has encountered the numinous in a profound way. Absolutely, experience some of my earlier shamanic initiatory illness experiences I knew I had experienced something and I had some ideas about what I experienced, but then I went to spirit centered diviners, all of them in different traditions and they were able to say, "Yes, this happened to you. This is exactly what you think happened [crosstalk 00:12:55] fuck dude, that was real. Here are some next steps." [inaudible 00:13:00] profound being nothing if it doesn't become actionable. I have a friend who, I'm here in Guatemala in a cool ex-pat city that's also, I like it, I like the vibe, but nearby there's Lake Atitlan where there are various small towns which are more touristy than others and I have an ex-pat friend who is currently volunteering at a hostel there and he was like, "You totally got to come down, Chi. It's going to be amazing. There's drum circles and cool shit and a lot of people in white cotton drawstring pants doing ayahuasca and injecting frog poison in their arms," and I'm like, "Okay, that's a lot." But what struck me was that no one's integrating their experiences. They're just like, "Yeah, I shoved frog poison in my arm and I almost died. It was crazy 30 minutes." And I'm like, "And then what?" Andrew: Yeah. For sure. Chiron: And so, there's that descent into [inaudible 00:14:04] initiatory experience [inaudible 00:14:08] but then there has to be an ascent. You have to come back. That's the whole point. Andrew: Well, when I was 14, I was in the Dominican Republic and I was driving a motor scooter and I got hit head on by a dump truck and almost died. I spent a long time, first of all, I spent a year learning how to walk again. Physically it was really, really challenging. But also, that question, "Okay, so this happened, now what?" And the now what became I'm going to read everything that I can find. The now what became I'm going to run into spiritual people and I'm going to be cornering them and asking them questions and so on and so on. And that process of trying to make sense of a thing. I mean, there's the psychological level, there's the why did this happen level, there's all that stuff. I think that that's the challenge with a lot of these things, you know what I mean? I spent plenty of time in my early 20's joyously exploring psychedelics and other things and again I had this really profound experience and I was like, "Well, now what?" And the now what was I don't need to do this anymore, I need to go do other things. I need to get to this place without anything else and experience it directly. So, I think that that process as you talk of it, it's amazing to have an opening experience. It's not amazing to have a horrible experience like getting hit by a truck, but it's amazing from a certain perspective, I suppose. But it's a question of what are you going to do with it. What does it mean? How does it change your life? How does it change your self, your sense of self? I think that's really integral to these kinds of things. Chiron: Sure and oftentimes we need people on the shore with their arms outstretched welcoming us back and helping us come back, whether that is the spiritual people that you're cornering, whether that is the people who helping you move through various initiatory experiences in the OTO. Where not supposed to be doing this alone, so our collective lack of understanding of initiatory process is tremendously to our detriment individually and collectively. I absolutely hit a point in my initiatory illness stuff, where I was just desperately trying to get back to the human world and to the stable and to quote/unquote real and was flailing terribly. And through a perfect, I mean, utterly profoundly perfect scheme of synchronicities, was led to another spirit initiated person, who called me up like, "Hey, let's talk about some essays I just wrote," and they said some key words that actually showed me that they were safe enough to share what I was going through with speaking with them because I had been being gaslit by a lot of people. And those keys words [inaudible 00:17:32] and they were like, "You need to come and live with me. Come live with me." And I actually moved in with him for three months and those three months, they gave me the space and time and knowledge to better understand what had happened to me and the [inaudible 00:17:53] to finish piecing myself back together. Andrew: I think that brings up a really important point too. People need to be safe. There are lots of people who that are like, "Oh yeah, you're totally having this experience," and "You're meant to be the next great whatever." And I think that the more people are selling you stuff in terms of ideas and whatever and big pictures, again, the more suspect I tend to be about it. Chiron: Absolutely. Andrew: I think that there comes this place, point where it's like, "Yeah, you're in the middle of some shit and you got to patch that together." It's so much different than... I get people occasionally who get sent to me and essentially the question is, "Am I insane or have I made contact with God directly," or whatever. And this particular person I'm thinking about, they were hanging out with all these people who were telling them all this great stuff and what it meant and how wonderful it was that spirit was moving in and they would lose days to possession and whatever and this and that. And when we sat down and we flipped some cards, I'm just like, "No. It's none of that. You need to go, preferably right now, to the hospital and say 'I'm hearing voices, I'm having psychotic episodes and delusions. I'm losing time.'" And they had a big emotional purge about it and then I don't know what they did because they left. And I don't actually know them. But it was one of those things where, depending on what people are telling you and the bigger the crown they're saying is on your head, the more suspect you should be of it, I think. Chiron: For sure there's a famous anthropology story. I forget exactly the cultural context, but there is a woman who is experiencing or expressing certain symptoms regarding illness and madness and you have the ethnographer there, the anthropologist there who is watching what's happened and some shamans are called in from nearby town to actually come in and do divination and say is this person going through shaman sickness. Is this person in an initiatory illness experience? And the shamans end up agreeing no. This person is actually just experiencing symptoms of mental illness. And it's very interesting because the anthropologist goes on to say, "Well, you know, this is actually evidence of the issue of patriarchy in the tribe and that the woman was of a lower economic class," [inaudible 00:20:56] rather than accepting the spirit centric animistic view of, "No, the shaman said that she's not." This is actually nothing political. This is actually not what's going on. Get thee to a hospital. Andrew: Well, and I think that that's a thing that the western mindset struggles with. That it is possible to have a concrete solid answer. People feel that Oshun is visiting them, something that I run into as a priest of Shango in Afro-Cuban lineage. People show up and they're like, "Oh yeah, Oshun's talking to me." And I'm always like, "Well, I don't know. Maybe." I'm like, "But if you want to find out, there's a way to find out." There's traditional divination, there are these things that can give us answers. And almost everybody who gets the answer that's "no" doesn't accept it. This idea that we could get an authoritative, 100% reliable answer to a question about things like that is something that people really struggle with because they won't look for other reasons. Instead of just being like, "Okay." Orisha says, "No." "Okay. What do I do now?" Chiron: Well, what do I do now is a really important question too. We're struggling with a tremendous lack of meaning in our culture. Identity is a huge issue [inaudible 00:22:43] and we're all supposed to be having experiences of the profound and some understanding of the intrinsic profundity of our own true nature and being denied that, but having a soul that is wired for that. We're really fucked, frankly. We're so badly fucked. But don't take this one cool thing that tells me that I'm more than are rat race away from me. Like, "No, I had this dream, it was a golden woman, it had to do with a river. It has to be this. Don't take the first time I'm experiencing some level of profound meaning in relation to my life away from me." Andrew: Well, yeah. This question of that identity is one that I am fascinated by. How do people construct identity and how do people find identity. And in some ways, I've definitely talked about this on the podcast in a few places, especially probably on the Stacking Skulls stuff, about this notion that a lot of the [inaudible 00:23:56] magic that I do for myself, I term it as identity magic. It's how do I change my consciousness to identify myself in a different way to make things possible. But yeah, people are often looking, it seems, for the identity, the end of the searching for identity, end of the question of who we are and I don't know when that happens. If you've found it, you let me know, but I feel like it's a continuous set of questions. Chiron: It is a continuous set of questions. I think that one of the things that I've been most blessed by was my working for some kind of a teacher who really focused on the idea of the authentic self. That you actually are here with a purpose and understanding certain aspects of that purpose can give you an idea of some of the things that you're here to do. So, bring your attention to that. That has shown up for me in big mundane ways like, obviously I have a better understanding that I'm supposed to be doing certain things like this here and there, but even the small ways. I'd be like, "I'm going to craft a spell. I'm going to craft some magic," and the push that I've experienced in the spirit world, like, "Make sure you include song in that." I'm like, "[inaudible 00:25:21] yeah, I used to sing as a kid," but that was a piece. That's one of the pieces of my soul's purpose energy, is music is there. We are this beautiful charismatic energies, but most of us have no idea what that prism consists of. So, even getting a little bit of understanding of, and it's not just an understanding, it's really a remembrance of little remembrances of who we are. Which is also really helpful when it comes to protection, so that you can stop listening to every voice, human and nonhuman, about what to do. There's almost nothing more valuable in the cosmos than the human heart. And human heart is easily hijacked, easily persuaded and influenced. You got to get that shit on lock. Or at least start who am I? What am I doing? Why am I [inaudible 00:26:32] here? And make sense of it. So you have understanding of what you have to [inaudible 00:26:38] because that trickster spirit hiding behind that Oshun face wants that heart, girl. It wants to eat you. Andrew: Yeah, for sure. Well, and I think that [crosstalk 00:26:55] Chiron: [crosstalk 00:26:55] someone's knocking on my door. My apologies. I know what I wanted to say next, actually. Andrew: Yeah, go. Chiron: There's also an article going around, very interesting from a number of perspectives. It's an article, the title, I believe is called, Shaman's View Mental Illness As Something Different Entirely. It's a very interesting article because on the surface, the image often shared in relation to the article is that of a South American medicine person. While the article is referencing a West African medicine person. This is just, I'm a nerd. The article is referencing the work and teachings of Malidoma Somé, who is a Dagara elder and who's written about mental illness and his experiences of psychiatric hospitals here in the west and the oftentimes spirit influences that he sees going on in regards to mental illness. Never does he say all mentally ill people are shamans. But that's kind of the takeaway that the article provides and that most people who are sharing it seem to have... And it's extremely harmful and reductive of the vastly different states that we can experience [inaudible 00:28:31]. Is there a link sometimes between spirit work and mental illness or experience of madness? Absolutely. I fall into that category. But- Andrew: And it goes the other way. Being bipolar, being schizophrenic, having a wide range of certain kinds of mental illness makes one susceptible to spirits coming around in the same way the being stagnant, we talked about earlier, makes people susceptible to spiritual complications. But there's a big difference between a spiritual complication and what you're talking about here as an initiatory sickness or solely caused by a failure to be aligned with your destiny or whatever. Chiron: And it also comes back to the identity issue that what one experiences in terms of mental illness or spiritual intensity stuff. None of these things necessarily mean forever. Some of these experiences and states are temporary. But in our desperation for identity, give me something to call myself, give me something to be besides a consumer and capitalist. Andrew: We could just end the episode right thing. Just big bold quotes. "Please, dear God, give me something other to be than a consumer and a capitalist." Chiron: Yeah, yeah. Andrew: Right? Yeah. Well and I think it's fascinating because this article really talks about something that I wanted to ask you about. Which is, depending on the backgrounds people come from, you'll hear different ideas about what's going on. And some people have much more, animism is a word that people tend to know these days. But really, a spirit rich world. Because I think of it before people started using animism. I remember talking to, because the first store I worked at was 80% Caribbean clientele who would come for readings. And they'd be like, "Oh yeah. They've got a disagreeable spirit on them. Oh, they've got this on..." and everything was a spirit. I think that my question for you is how do was engage animism? How do we think about these ideas because I think that they're true in certain ways. And what do we do with them? Does that make sense? Is that even a question? I don't know. Chiron: Well, I remember reading in my very, very early days of animism and solitary neo-Wiccan practice, always coming across walkers between the worlds and all that. Became the walker between the world and it was like, "Oh, that sounds so cool and so sexy." And here I am, 12 years later I'm like, "Oh fuck it's horrible! It's just so complex." And again, you're not supposed to do this alone. I can't do this alone. My life has, to a certain extent, very, very often been far more spirit centric than is healthy than is healthy for a person who lives in a body. So, again, coming back [inaudible 00:32:17] the ascent, coming back out of initiatory experiences and the troubles that I've had with coming out of initiatory experiences. And then there are people who have the opposite experience. They're living solely in a western consumerist secular materialistic model and as much as we're told this is satisfying; the next step is to go to college. The next step is to have a kid. They're not satisfied, so they need someone, because again, we can't do this alone, who has that access to the other side. I think we [inaudible 00:32:57] I'd like to see us culturally become more spirit centric than we are. Yes, not because I just want to jerk spirits off, but because I think that our relationship to the spirit world offers us a lot when it comes to understanding of right relationship. But I think we need both. I think we need both sides. Andrew: I wasn't anticipating this episode to be a tour de force of identity and good boundaries and groundedness, but we're coming back to these ideas. I think that it's important. Mostly, I just do my work, to be honest. My own initiatory practice and my God kids and stuff, that's one piece of time, running my own business and reading for people and doing work for people and running the store is plenty of time and then you throw a couple kids into the mix and you try and have some time to have fun it's like, "Man, that's all the time I've got." I tend to drift in and out of looking at what's going on in other places in terms of social media and so on. And maybe we're sliding into the shade part of the conversation now, so we'll see. Chiron: We are. Andrew: But, it's interesting to me what counts as animism. And for me, there's this question of does everything have energy? Absolutely. Does everything have a consciousness that we can interact with and benefit from interacting with? Meh. I become less certain about that at a certain point. And I think that this question of animism, for me, is one of where are the limits of it? Where are the values of it? What is functional? I remember, I had the pleasure to spend a bunch of time with done indigenous elders for northern Quebec and one of the things that we talked about when they were talking with me about the energies that are around me and people's reactions to them and stuff was like, "Yeah, some people be worried about that, but I don't worry about it. We don't worry about it." Like if something shows up, the question is what can we put it to work on? What can it do, what can it accomplish in this situation? And they said specifically the phrase, "If the devil shows up, that's fine. We just put them to work too." But for me, with this question of animism, there's this functional piece that I'm always curious about and that I don't always see in other practices. And that may well be because I don't understand the internal process that they're doing with it or maybe because it's just not present. But I'm curious, for you, how do you think about animism? What are your relationships to the boundaries of that or engaging with that at this point in your journey? Chiron: At this point in my journey, I think a lot has to do with the local for me. The local and what needs to be paid attention too. And that's going to be different for every person. And I think there might be things that are particularly exciting to me or interesting to me and I have to be aware of my biases in that respect as a professional spirit worker who is also doing readings and stuff. What biases am I generally bringing into my readings? What ideas? What has been [inaudible 00:36:53] to me? What have I found interesting or have survived through that might have no bearing on the life of my client and might even require me to say, "You know what? I'm going to send you for a referral to this other person [crosstalk 00:37:06] since I, in terms of the boundaries of animism, I'm currently speaking to you via my laptop on my desk, neither of which I make any offerings to or generally consider a conscious [inaudible 00:37:21] of land and house spirits because those kinds of energies have fucked me up to no end in the past in tiny ways that I've had to gain an awareness of and my relationship to and tend to those kinds of relationships in different ways. And going back to what you were saying about the indigenous elders from Quebec, how do we put at that time to work, it reminded me a little bit of something a client said to me recently after a spirit helper's consultation. Everything in my work is highly actionable. If you have a session with me that is especially spirit oriented, at the end of the hour or hour and a half, what I'm generally telling something at the end of every session is I know this was weird, profound, crazy, interesting, resonant. The last thing I want you to do is leave this session thinking 10 years from now, "I had an interesting experience with a shaman who told me some weird things and..." No. You have homework. There are things to do. Everything here is actionable. Some of the things I have expounded upon were to give you a better felt sense of the reasons why this is actionable and why this worthy of your attention. But all of these energies are meant to be cultivated. There are actions to take. Everything is about being highly actionable. Andrew: Yeah, I think of it like I don't want people to leave a session identifying with something. Chiron: Yes. Andrew: I remember reading for this person and they just like, "Yeah, yeah, you're right, that's my problem, that's this, that's whatever. That's great advice. Yeah I should do that. Whatever." And we finished the whatever amount of time we had and they were like, "Oh, but I'm a Gemini, so I just never will." And I was just like, "Wow. Man that identity is so destructive to you." And I think that my time with Crowley and the Thalamic stuff was really helpful. There's a lot of it I've left behind at this point. But one of the ideas that comes up there is success is the proof. You do a thing, you take the action and something happens. Or there's an alchemical saying that I came across at one point where it's like, "Work and be free." Like, "Show up and do the work." Do the things and then the rest of it comes from there. And it's not about coming to divination to create or solidify an identity, but to learn to do the actions that make the change. External, internal, whichever. Chiron: Work and be free. I love that. I'm taking that. Andrew: Yeah. I'm actually going to make a little piece of art that goes above the door to my studio that just says that so that I can be like, "Yeah. Why am I here today? Oh, I'm here to do that. Okay. Why are other people here today? For me to facilitate them doing that." Chiron: Yeah. For sure. Andrew: All right. So, let's talk about shade then. Now that we've done all that stuff, let's talk about shade. I enjoy your Instagram because it is delightfully full of shade. And especially in ways that... because sometimes shade is just straight up meanness in a way that I don't dig. I'm just like, "Eh, that's not really funny. You're just being a jerk now for no good reason." But tell me how you think about shade. Tell me how you approach this. Because I actually think it's one of your magical works, the way in which you go about it. Chiron: I'm someone who has spent a lot of time in this lifetime trying to be very nice and trying to be very good and wanting to be loved. And it is so at odds with certain energies that show up in various traditions of my life that do not give a fuck. They really just don't give a fuck. And part of my own healing has been becoming someone who gives less of a fuck and has been becoming someone who is not afraid to speak my truth. As corny as that sounds and After School Special as that sounds, it can be a real issue for people who've struggled with boundaries throughout their life, for people who might even have a performance background and are very used to acting and trying to be palatable. And the year that I finally come to understand. There's also a story we tell in our collective mainstream new age spirituality that someone who does the work that I do is supposed to be nice. And [inaudible 00:42:42] someone who traditionally actually supposed to be very ornery. Actually traditionally someone like me is very ornery and frightening and it's been like, "Okay, I should accept that." I should accept that I have come to have certain experiences in this lifetime and see certain things that really if anyone saw them, they would probably be, consider humanity somewhat distasteful and that's okay. The parts of me who are sometimes fed up with individual and collective bullshit are totally valid. It is not my job to quickly bury that so that I can coddle everyone. I do think that there is a tremendous lack of comfort that [inaudible 00:43:34] harm in a real nurturing, rooted sense of identity, etc., etc. however, when it comes to certain topics and certain ways of being, especially when it comes to other spirit workers, I think that it really serves me as a way of calling us in to have some shade and to be a little bit bitchy. Yeah. So, that's where I am with shade right now. There's a lot I don't share that only the people closest to me might hear. But I [inaudible 00:44:07]. Andrew: And by the way, half the listenership was just like, "How do I get on that private list of extra shade? Where do I sign up for that? Is there a Patreon for that? Can I get some extra shade Patreon please?" Chiron: I guess the shade that's generally going on in my head and heart just has to do with the collective stories that we tell about power and how frustrated I am with them. Experience in the spirit world, whether they be our collective very, very strong attachment to certain identities that may or may not serve us or may not be actually actionable, may have nothing to do with, that to me sometimes are very, very distracting. I can say, "Witch, witch, witch, witch, witch. I'm such a witch. I'm wearing all black. I'm such a witch, I'm such a witch. I have all the stones." And I'm like, "This is so distracting me from this very specific [inaudible 00:45:11] woman ancestor who has been trying to get me to do this very specific work that would enable you to, if went through what she's trying to get you to understand and see, bring some healing to your family, but no, you're so caught up in this glitz and idea. Or I'm coming originally and primarily from a folk magic background, an urban folk magic background, a New York City filled with botanicas, different traditions, but always the story about like, "Oh, that ungan, he is so powerful over there doing that really big intense work and the cemetery is so powerful." And I remember very early in my professional practice and having clients coming to me who were being thrown at by people who were very effective, but always this conversation about "Chiron, I really hope you can help. This person is so powerful." And needing to start breaking that down. What do you mean by that? What's the conversation? Because there's a lot of, a lot of our stories about power are really caught up in the abstract. We actually don't know what the fuck we're talking about when we're saying that I am a, or that some else is so powerful. And then, [inaudible 00:46:39] I've often found to play out when someone specifically, we'll talk specifically just because it's a good template around the conversation of curses and crossed conditions. Oftentimes when someone is coming to me and they are really invested in entertaining the story that the person who is working against them is so powerful, what's often playing out is a few things. One, if someone actually is throwing at them, they aren't someone who is just abstractly powerful in the sense that they had just training very, very well and is truly in harmony with the tremendous force. Usually that person might be, frankly, very possessed and full of intrusive energies. Oftentimes it's someone who has no real hold on their own power. [crosstalk 00:47:30] Andrew: Sure. Or they have a ton of rage or something. Some massive- Chiron: Yeah. And it's flying [crosstalk 00:47:36] Andrew: [crosstalk 00:47:36] emotional energy and every now and then, they just narrow it down on person X and then something happens. That's not power. [crosstalk 00:47:45] Chiron: Exactly. Andrew: Not in the sense that people mean it in this conversation. Yeah. Chiron: Exactly. And then I think about, okay, well what about your own vulnerabilities? And I don't mean that in a victim blaming way, but oftentimes when someone has gone to a significant extent of cleansings and reversals and protection work and they have not found it to be effective and I've often found that that person has certain, rather odd vulnerabilities. I have absolutely seen people who might have an ancestral curse that makes them especially vulnerable through curses from the feminine. And now you have this, perhaps a woman who is in a rage and she was in a rage against you 10 years ago and you just have to shake it off. Those kinds of things happen. So, to me, power is what is actually happening in this person's energetic sphere that's allowing them to have broad influence and understanding of and attempts to heal one's vulnerabilities to me is also powerful. And then we just do not give enough credence to the simple, humble, heart-centered medicine person in the remote setting, who by way of their initiatory experiences and the work that they do on themselves, has made themselves nearly invulnerable to harm, nearly invulnerable to some of the macro possessions that we have going on in the world. And that kind of person to me is the most powerful, frankly. Andrew: Yeah. And I think that the more people tell you how powerful they are, the more they're not, for one. The more somebody needs to express that, the less really stuff is going on there. I, I did martial arts for a long time and I worked as a bouncer for a while to see where I had gotten with my skill because I didn't want to go get in real fights, but I did want to be in real situations. And it became really obvious. It's in the way you carry yourself. And I think that in the same way that maybe those humble practitioners where people wouldn't identify them as showing the signs of power, I think that a lot of work that fixes things also don't show the signs of power. If you need a spiritual cleansing and we're like, "Oh, you know what? Burdock says it's going to help you here. So, you go down to the park with a little shovel or something, this is what it looks like, go and talk to it, make this offering. Dig up some of the roots and take a bath in that." Or whatever. It's like, "Oh, but don't I need candles and don't I need the-". I'm like, "No, you don't need anything. You just need this. This will fix everything." Because power on a magical level doesn't necessarily look like we expect it to. Or we have become accustomed to it being performance as. And it's not to say that there aren't those times for those big things. You and I both participate in traditions that have big things. I went to a Awan for Babalú-Ayé, big community cleansing and it's a whole production. But that's its own thing. That's not the small things. And often even then, people come for traditional divination with the Orishas and the answer is "Yeah. Bring this for Shango. Shango wants a pomegranate. He wants some bananas. He wants whatever. Oh, do this. Get a couple coconuts. Okay, you're good." It doesn't need to be dramatic in order to be effective. Chiron: As you were saying there's room for the dramatic. The dramatic kind of [inaudible 00:52:02] need to happen in some capacity [inaudible 00:52:06] is learning when and where and If I tried to make every cleansing that I do dramatic, I would never get anything done. And I [inaudible 00:52:14] one of the reasons why I fucking love diloggun and I fucking love the... Evil is very often very simple. But the effects are tremendous. And I revel in when my spirits tell me to refer a client to a diloggun reader because I'm like, "Oh. Yeah. You're going to get the medicine back. You're going to get the medicine." Andrew: For sure. And think that that's definitely a thing too. That referral. You said it already. I think it makes tons of sense too. I want to go back to this question about thing though, before we wrap up today, about being a nice person. Because I think that there are a bunch of false dichotomies or false positions around this conversation. On the one hand, you have the people who feel everybody should be nice, spiritual people should be nice and kind and calm and benevolent and whatever all the time. They shouldn't be ornery or anything else. And then on the other hand, you have this people who feel that they should be dark and powerful, gothic as it were. Whether literally or functionally. And then I think there's all these other positions. What do you think about that? You've been moving away from being nice, you've been moving towards being more direct. How would you describe that position? What advice would you give to people around trying to make sense of those kinds of positions? Chiron: Well, one thing that I've been studying a lot over the past few years is the energy of collusion, the ways in which we unconsciously make ourselves available for things that are not our truth or things that support us. The things that done support other people. There's so much evidence of what collusion looks like in spiritual community and politics, in the entertainment industry. And I am becoming more and more aware of place in my own life where I collude. I just shared on Facebook some months ago this moment where I was walking through the San Francisco BART station and a beautiful person who was asking for donations was singing and I really, I had already made some charitable efforts earlier in the week. I also was broke as fuck. And I just had a couple of things I wanted to get done that day, but this person's song was like a siren song. It was one of those beautiful voices and they had a sign up and I'm walking and I'm like, "I really want to support this person." I strongly believe in acting from a place of movement in one's heart and I'm feeling moved in my heart right now, but I really can't give right now. Do I share their sound cloud? What can I do to make this energy move? [inaudible 00:55:26] of me who looks at this person who's singing and looks at me and grins as we are exiting the BART station. And the grin was something that felt like, "Oh, poor unfortunate soul. We're not that person, right?" Like, "Look at us ascending out of the San Francisco BART station into the light with whatever resources we have. And in that person meeting my eyes, I suddenly felt a lot safer and more comfortable not making any effort. And in that moment, I was able the catch that unconscious collusion that would happen. Now, this isn't significant. There's no children in cages involved here. There's no sex abuse claims that I'm d- it was just so simple and small and tiny and perhaps even slightly laughable, but it was a very important moment for me to recognize a place in which I was vulnerable to other people taking me off of my center. Andrew: Well, and for, as a straight looking cis dude, the amount of dudes who try and pull me off of my beliefs about equality and feminism and gender identities and all these things, it's amazing how much effort there is to create that collusion where people will be like, "Oh, bla-bla-blah." I'm like, "Dude, that's a sexist joke. I don't actually find that funny." Or whatever. And the amount of persistence and pressure. And I think that when I listened to that story, one of the things that I hear and I think is really important is on the one hand, it's not cosmically and historically changing a particular moment, but when we have those experiences where we notice the collusion and we make a different choice, then that creates more space for us to free ourselves from that collusion and to continue that centeredness. And I think that this goes back to the, the simple Imbolc, the simple offering. It's not always lightning flash awakened everything moment. Sometimes it's those little things that start shaking us onto a different path, a more centered path, a more authentic path. Chiron: [inaudible 00:58:07] things that have a hold on us individually and collectively that need to be fought against. Coming back to the conversation around niceness. Well, what about justice? No justice, no peace. And there are things that need to be fought against. There are things that we are all in agreement with. There are ways in which I myself am still colluding with past abusers in my own way. They might not be physically in my life, but the parts of me that are like, "Yeah, you kinda do suck, Chi. You kinda did deserve to be treated that way." This is an ongoing conversation around healing and reorienting ourselves towards the energies of healing and justice and that's not going to be nice. And that's not going to be complacent. Andrew: Well I read this interesting brief piece that got me thinking somebody from my kink community was writing this piece about being a nice guy versus being a good guy. I mean, linguistically we could shake it up in different directions, but the point that they were getting at and where it took my mind was essentially what they were talking about was when we're being a quote/unquote nice guy, we are doing positive behaviors in one way or another or nice behaviors in one way or another with the expectation of reward. With the expectation that it will get us something or take us somewhere. And they were talking about being a nice guy in order to eventually get the person you want to be with and stuff like this versus being a good person, which they put forward as being honest, being direct, being authentic. Being really deeply real and not necessarily not being kind or whatever, but also not doing it with, not being kind or nice with ulterior motives, which ultimately isn't niceness. And I think that in our culture, there's a lot of niceness. Going along to get along, being polite to avoid problems and sometimes that's absolutely important. Sometimes it's better than what else might happen, but I think that this question of being centered and authentic and genuine versus trying to make everything smooth, easy, nice and so on. Chiron: Yeah, totally. The promise of reward, but even the promise of safety. Andrew: Sure. Chiron: [crosstalk 01:00:51] Andrew: And that's definitely a reward. That's an inauthentic equation. I'm being nice because I want this thing and not that that might not be like, "Please, if you need to do stuff to be safe, be safe. Please, everybody." But there's an inauthenticity there- Chiron: Absolutely. Andrew: ... which it behooves us to, as we are able to work away from. Chiron: Absolutely. Abs- and I would say a significant part of my work is looking at times in childhood when we were making compromises to be safe around the adults around us who weren't actually adults. Andrew: Or to get that love or to get that affection or whatever. Any of it. For sure. Yeah. For sure. Well, I think that is a profound and wonderful place to wrap this up. Let's shake off those things. Let's challenge those collusions or as my friend might call them, internalized oppressions and let's move on from there. Let's see what we can do to change ourselves and change the world. Chiron: Absolutely. Andrew: Yeah. Remind everybody where they can find you okay? People should absolutely follow you on Instagram, but there are other places too. Chiron: Sure. On Twitter and Instagram I'm Chiron Armand. And I have a Facebook page, Impact Shamanism. My website is impactshamanism.com. Thank you so much for having me. Andrew: Oh, it's been absolutely a pleasure. It's been as delightful as I imagined it might be.
The Hermit's Lamp Podcast - A place for witches, hermits, mystics, healers, and seekers
This long overdue episode was record back in the summer. Andrew and Mal talk about the nature of magic, initiation, religious practice and more. They talk a lot about how to know if you are on the right track and the pitfalls of walking a magical path. The upsides and pitfalls of gnosis. How to become a bishop by chance and much more. Think about how much you've enjoyed the podcast and how many episodes you listened to, and consider if it is time to support the Patreon You can do so here. If you want more of this in your life you can subscribe by RSS , iTunes, Stitcher, or email. To find more out about Mal check out Lux-Umbria or hang with him on Facebook here. Thanks for joining the conversation. Please share the podcast to help us grow and change the world. Andrew You can book time with Andrew through his site here. Transcription ANDREW: [00:00:02] Welcome to another episode of The Hermit's Lamp podcast. I am joined today by Mal Strangefellow. And I've been following Mal online for quite a while. And recently, he's gotten into starting a church. And [00:00:17] a lot of the dialogue around that has been very fascinating to me. So I thought that inviting him on to talk about some of these things would be really entertaining because I think there's so many fascinating questions about legitimacy, legacy, [00:00:32] lineage, and all sorts of stuff that people are or ought to be thinking about as they're going about in various traditions right now, and at the birth of something new, seems like a great place to revisit those conversations. So, for people who [00:00:47] might not know you, Mal, give us, give us the introduction. Who are you? What are you about? MAL: [laughing] Oh, wow, um, you know, and I don't mean this to sound, sound like I'm bragging. It's mostly just because [00:01:02] I'm getting older and my memory is lagging, but when you, when you've done, I don't want to say so much, but when you've done enough, at some point, it starts to become difficult to figure out how to answer that question. [00:01:17] [laughing] ANDREW: Sure. MAL: I got my start in esoterica during the mid-80s. I'm solidly in that, you know, Boomer cusp/early Gen X region. [00:01:34] Went into, went into the army right out of high school, and after that, got it into my head that I wanted to be a Buddhist monk. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. MAL: And ended up doing [00:01:49] that for a number of years. I was a Tibetan Buddhist monk, a novice and, and fully ordained getsu and gelong. After a few years, or early 90s, wanted to go and get a college degree, [00:02:04] went to the University of Oregon--go Ducks!--and you know, discovered that it's a lot harder to be a celibate monk in a university than it is in a monastery! ANDREW: [laughing] Uh huh. [00:02:19] MAL: Go figure! ANDREW: I imagine. MAL: And ended up returning my vows, and, at that point, just kind of wandered back and forth among a number of different things, sort of exploring [00:02:35] alternate routes of spirituality, continuing to practice magic. Of course, the Internet was really just sort of starting to become popular at this time. You know, we were moving beyond the [00:02:50] text-based, green screen kind of stuff and actually getting a graphical interface to the Internet discussion boards. Alt magic, of course, was going like gangbusters. This is just at the cusp of the, the [00:03:05] infamous Golden Dawn Wars of the early, early to mid-90s, and ended up getting involved with the Golden Dawn. Was--actually, my neophyte initiation in the Golden Dawn was done [00:03:20] with Israel Regardie's handmade tools, and I believe a mutual friend of ours, Poke Runyan, was the keryx for that and gave me his flu. ANDREW: [chuckles] MAL: So. ANDREW: That's a magical blessing, indeed. MAL: [00:03:35] Right? And kind of . . . There was some floundering, I would say towards the late 90s. Got involved in the Temple of Set, stayed there long enough to [00:03:50] be recognized to the third degree, their priesthood, at which, and this, I bring this up because it encompasses sort of a pivotal event for me. James Grabe was [00:04:05] also a member of the temple and a member of the OTO, and at the time, when I actually met him in person, there, he was on the outs with the current leadership. I [00:04:20] mean, he has made, I don't know if I'm saying that right, I've never done any OTO stuff. So. That guy. And I don't know what there was, so I don't know if they were, I think there was some sort of lawsuit or some-- Anyway, they were pissed [00:04:35] off. We were at a conclave, which is an annual temple gathering, and we were in the hotel bar, and just sort of chatting, and you know, I was a second degree adept at the time, and so I was star struck at his degree and [00:04:50] his history. And we were just talking and he was mostly talking. And he had mentioned that he had apostolic succession as a bishop, and one of the things, among other things, that the current leadership wanted from him was consecration [00:05:06] as a bishop for their EGC. ANDREW: Mm. MAL: And he was basically just inviting them to peruse the fine example of the back of his middle finger on that. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. MAL: And you know, he said, "You know what, basically, [00:05:21] I'll consecrate, you know, anybody else, anybody but them. Right? Hell, you want to be consecrated?" and I was like, "Um, yeah, okay." He's like, "All right, cool." So we actually made a plan for the next night. He [00:05:36] had a suite in the hotel and I showed up and we went through deacon priest and I was consecrated a bishop that night. And it was like, "Here you go. Now, you're a bishop." I was like, "Well, awesome. Thank you." This is [00:05:51] 1998-99-ish and, which, oddly enough feels like, you know, maybe five or ten years ago for me, but . . . ANDREW: Sure. MAL: Yeah, I was like, you know, "So what do I do with this?" It was like fuck, [00:06:06] I don't care. Can I say fuck? I can say fuck, right? ANDREW: You can say fuck. It's fine. Go ahead. MAL: All right, cool. Fuck, yeah. [laughing] He was like, "I don't care," you know, "here's some stuff," and I got like loose leaf print outs, you know, some ideas that he had had [00:06:21] about sort of a Johannite spirituality and you know, I got, you know, an old Xeroxed copy of his succession, apostolic succession, and stuff like that, and I just sort of filed it away and did nothing with it. [00:06:36] ANDREW: Mm. MAL: Until I resigned, after I resigned from the temple as a priest. It was, you know, interpersonal political stuff. ANDREW: Isn't it always, right? MAL: Right, you know, it's, there was a group that was up-and-coming [00:06:51] in the temple. They have since been, been purged out, but I was not in that group, and ended up just resigning rather than dealing with all of the, the people bullshit that comes with that, and [00:07:06] in trying to figure out, all right, what the hell do I want to do now? Said, you know, well, I've got these kind of things to fall back on. I wonder if I could do this? And so I pulled out all of James's stuff and decided [00:07:21] you know what, fuck it. I'm, I'm a start a church! And that's how the Apostolic Johannite church was founded, [laughs] and I ended up posting on a couple of message boards online at the time: "Hey, are [00:07:36] you interested in an esoteric organization and an esoteric church?" And got a couple of hits. One of the very first ones was, of course, the current patriarch of the AJC, and you know, the rest there is history. [00:07:51] I ran the AJC for a couple of years, and at that time, kind of felt like I had some unfinished stuff that I wanted to do elsewhere. Plus, [00:08:06] I feel like, at least for me at that time, it took a different personality to run things than it did to start them, and I didn't know that I had the personality to keep that [00:08:21] thing going, and I feel justified in making this statement, you know, in hindsight 20/20, but just in looking at how well they've done, you know, since I, since I handed it over to Sean McCann, their current patriarch, you know, I think [00:08:36] it's the, like the largest, fastest growing international gnostic church on the planet right now, some crazy crap like that. ANDREW: So. Let me ask you a question. MAL: Yeah, yeah! ANDREW: Cause you've talked about so many things here and I want to . . . MAL: I know, I'm sorry. ANDREW: No. No, it's [00:08:51] why I had you on, I want to have these conversations and I love hearing you chat. What, what kind of personality does it take to run these things? Because you know, I've, you know, I've been in my share of, you know, I was in the OTO [00:09:06] in several different groups that all imploded or exploded. And I was in the Aurum Solace for a bunch of time, and change of leadership and it, you know, my local group was excommunicated. And you know, I [00:09:21] was in the AA for a while and there are various, you know, things with that, that just left me, you know, with nowhere to go. What is it, you know, and I've seen my share of that in the, in the Lukumi traditions as well, you know, different places. [00:09:36] What does it take to run a thing like that well? Because I feel like there's, you know, what I've seen is, there's, like, if there's a strong personality and they can kind of hold it together with their personality, [00:09:51] that works until it doesn't, until they leave or retire or whatever. What actually does work? What makes sense when it comes to sort of bigger organizations around that kind of stuff? MAL: You know, I think you [00:10:06] kind of hit on it with the, the big personality, not in that that's the answer. But in that, that's not the answer. ANDREW: Mm. MAL: I think a strong personality, a willingness to get shit [00:10:21] done, to say, you know, what, screw it, we're going this way. We're doing it. Like that's the kind of personality you need to start something, to really get it going, to gather people in, to inspire other people, but to keep it going, [00:10:37] I think you need somebody a lot more conciliatory. ANDREW: Mm. MAL: You know, somebody, somebody who is open to, willing to, desirous of working with other people and incorporating them into the, [00:10:52] the, the living, you know, the daily life of the organization, a strong personality. You know, again, I think it's absolutely necessary to get a thing started. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. MAL: [00:11:07] You know, there's just so much inertia there, at the beginning of anything that you need to build up a certain amount of momentum to, you know, to, to overcome initial obstacles and you know, nothing kills [00:11:22] momentum faster than a committee meeting. ANDREW: [laughing] Especially if not much is already happening. Right? MAL: Right. Right! You know? So you need that strong personality, but after you reach a certain point, I think that strong personality [00:11:37] becomes detrimental, you know? ANDREW: Mm-hmm. MAL: And if you don't have it within you to drop that and become more conciliatory, then you're just kind of a, you know, you're kind of a bully, you, you end up with, you know, strong personality clashes [00:11:52] with other people who, you know, who might be able to come in and do amazing things. Yeah, I think of . . . Okay. So, a perfect example of this going back to where I was and where Sean McCann was at the beginning of the AJC when I handed things over to [00:12:07] him . . . You know, he was, he'd only been a bishop for like a year. ANDREW: Okay. MAL: You know, I'd consecrated him and, to be fair, I had even gone, like right after his consecration, [00:12:22] I went on vacation! ANDREW: Uh huh. MAL: Like six months! [laughing] And I was like, you know what, I just need a break from all of this. I'm tired. You run things. Call me if you need to, but I'm out for a while. So, you know, really, even that first six months, he [00:12:37] was kind of running things. Because of his age, and because of his natural temperament at the time, you know, sort of, you know, not really sure of himself, [00:12:52] not wanting to make a mistake. MAL: Okay. So the current primate of North America for the AJC, Mar Thoma, was a bishop with [00:14:07] another organization who came into the AJC. We had become friends while I was still there, but he officially joined the AJC after I left, and he is a very strong personality. But he's also [00:14:22] been, you know, has been just an amazing asset for the church and, you know, in looking back, I don't know, like, would I have given him the same opportunity? You know, when you've got those, the [00:14:37] two alpha dogs clashing, right? The, you know, the two strong personalities, would, would the same results have come about? And I'm not so sure that it would have, you know? I think by me stepping out and by Sean coming in [00:14:52] and having that, that natural conciliatory manner and welcoming him in, [coughs] excuse me, as a, another leader. I think that was a huge part of their success. And so, what does it take to run [00:15:07] an organization? I think it takes the ability to find, to find that in yourself, to realize that, you know, you know, it's not all about me. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. MAL: If I care about this, if it's going to run, I need to, I need to be conciliatory. [00:15:22] Does that make sense? ANDREW: Yeah, I think so, for sure. MAL: Oh good, cool. ANDREW: Because you know, yeah, a lot of people just . . . A lot of what I've seen is, it gets to a point where people are just like, look, it's my way or the highway, and then you know, and then you just [00:15:37] have, you know, whatever, right? Like, like the thing around the apostolic succession, where they're like, will you please give this to us? And be like, absolutely never, you know, like you just end up in these things where it's so stuck that there's no, there's no movement possible, right? You know? MAL: Right, right. ANDREW: [00:15:52] Mm-hmm. MAL: Yeah, and you know, when you lay down something, like it's my way or the highway, you end up with a ton of fantastic people choosing the highway. ANDREW: Yeah. MAL: And, and you're left with, you know, just the, the sycophants, [00:16:07] and what happens to your, the organization, then? I mean, you mentioned your experiences in the Aurum Solis, and I remember, you know, when Leon proclaimed it an all Christian organization [00:16:22] when he was still, you know, Grandmaster. And, you know, it was that, this is it, it's my way or the highway. This is what we're proclaiming. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. MAL: A bunch of people chose the highway! [laughing] You know, and then he kind of pulled back from that a little bit and then [00:16:37] somebody else took over and then [garbled right before 16:43] Anyway. Yeah, I think that that's a perfect example of what you were talking about. When you have leadership like that, [00:16:52] things tend not to grow organically and even if they do survive that personality, that type of personality, they don't survive the end of that personality. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. For sure. MAL: When that person dies or, you know, [00:17:07] converts to evangelical Christianity, and says, you know unicorns are bad or whatever. [laughing] ANDREW: Sure. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I think it's interesting. You know? I also think it's, it's interesting how . . . I wonder how, [00:17:22] contrary to what people might think, that that sort of more conciliatory aspect actually works to sustain the teachings versus dissipate them? MAL: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: Because what I see where there, where there's no [00:17:37] or nominal flexibility, is then there's these sort of backlashes and waves that come back and forth, right? You know, the new group comes in and you know, they're, they're all, they're all into witchcraft, and that's it. And if you're a Christian, you're [00:17:52] out, right? In response to the Christians who are like, "Well we're Christian," you know. And especially in a group like the Aurum Solis that, at least sort of in its heyday was so founded on research, you know . . . I mean, I think that, you know, what's, what are you losing, [00:18:07] you know, by these massive sways, right? So, yeah. MAL: Right, right. You know and also you get, you know, you get buy-in from everybody when, you know, regardless of the kind of organization, right? Whether it's a business or a teaching [00:18:22] order or a church or . . . You get buy-in with conciliatory leadership. You know, people feel like they have ownership, you know, they have a stake in it, and so they care about it. Whereas if it's just: here it is, [00:18:37] it's my way or the highway and then you know, well, okay, it's your way. It's never my way at that point, no matter where I am in the organization. If I'm not on top, it's never my way. It's always, I'm doing their way and you know, we as people, we [00:18:52] tend to like our way . . . [laughing] ANDREW: Well, and especially more magically inclined people. Right? MAL: Right. Yeah. ANDREW: You know, I think there's, there's a tendency towards ego, you know, not necessarily in a bad sense, but just ego, that [00:19:07] doesn't really, if it's not addressed in some capacity, you know? So, how did, how did you find the transition of, how did you sort of manage that transition from Tibetan Buddhist practice, which [00:19:22] is pretty, you know, which is very structured, you know, to, to kind of your other practices, which sound like there are through lines, but they weren't as rigid? If that's fair. [00:19:37] MAL: Oh, yeah. Absolutely. [lost words--exception?] about that. Yeah, you know, actually, I think it was . . . Being on sort of those diametric poles was beneficial to me. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. MAL: You know, as structured and rigid as [00:19:52] Tibetan monastic life was, the Temple of Set, on the other hand, and I think why, why I enjoyed and sort of embraced what they were doing so much was because there's so much [00:20:07] more open, right? You know, you show up and one of their, their primary tenets from The Book of Coming Forth by Night is, you know, "the text of another is an affront to the self." You know, so, every, initiatory degrees, you know, [00:20:22] okay, it's time for you to be recognized as a second-degree adept. They don't confer initiations. They recognize after you've achieved something, and then they say, okay, well now, go write that initiation ritual, you know, go [00:20:37] do it. Go create it, you know, come up with your own, you know, have it, have it . . . You know, don't, don't just pull crap out of your ass, you know. There, there's, there's a very scholastic aspect to them. I think when I, when I [00:20:52] joined, I got a binder that was like, and I'm holding up my fingers. Nobody can see them. [laughing] It's like an inch and a half to two inches thick and the vast bulk of that was a reading list. ANDREW: Mm. MAL: You know, so, and part of recognition [00:21:07] is, their recognition process is, go out and read these books. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. MAL: Go out and study this material. Go find more and then come back and tell us what you think about it, you know. You know, so there's this, this, this scholarship and then this production [00:21:22] and it's really, you know, and I don't want to give the impression that it's this loosey-goosey kind of thing. But it, it is very different from the structure that I experienced in Tibetan Buddhism. Right? ANDREW: Mm-hmm. MAL: And [00:21:37] I think I tried to incorporate some of that in in my later work and it's still something in my own personal practice and when I'm working with students, it's still something that even down to, you know, giving them offhand a reading [00:21:52] list. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. MAL: And saying, you know, pick, pick six books, or pick three books, or whatever. Read them all from different categories, and then come back and let's talk about how, you know, what [00:22:07] material from this book on this topic and this book from this incredibly different topic. How do they play together? ANDREW: Mm-hmm. MAL: And what do you get from reading both of those back-to-back that you wouldn't have gotten from reading either one separately, [00:22:22] right? In isolation. What, what new comes out of that? And I think that's sort of been, that came out of that experience, of strict rigid practice with, with Tibetan Buddhism and then the [00:22:37] more open, but, but scholastically-informed Setianism, like, like this kind of was born out of that, and I think that has been, regardless of what I've done since, sort [00:22:52] of my, my entire method of, approach for things. ANDREW: Mm. MAL: Does that make sense? I really feel like I'm just rambling on . . . ANDREW: No, no, not at all. It totally makes sense. MAL: Okay cool. ANDREW: I mean, for me I kind of went in the opposite direction. You know, I was doing ceremonial [00:23:07] stuff, you know, throwing some chaos magic, and you know, all that kind of . . . different things and then I'm, as I moved into Lukumi, and you know, the Orisha tradition that I got initiated in, it's, [00:23:22] there are just ways that things are done, you know. MAL: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: And so it's been a move away from, from that kind of structure and a stepping into that structure, and what I see is that so many people struggle with that axis. MAL: Yeah. ANDREW: You know? Like, you know, [00:23:37] for people to accept that there is a way that things are done, or, you know, in light of a tradition, the way that things are done, and that that part isn't [00:23:52] subject to conversation so much is very difficult for a lot of people, you know? MAL: But it's also a really important experience, I think. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. MAL: You know, I went from the founding of the AJC into East Asian esoteric [00:24:07] Buddhism, tendai [spelling?], and from their Korean Zen, you know, Seon Buddhism, and those are both, I mean, you don't get more rigid than the Japanese. ANDREW: Right. MAL: And, but there's a purpose for that. You know, they, [00:24:23] there's this idea that when you take all of these people together and you force them to do this sort of thing, this sort of way, we kind of polish our rough edges off. ANDREW: Mm. MAL: You know, and if everybody was just allowed to go off and do their own thing, [00:24:38] you would never find your rough edges, you know, and so in practicing tendai [spelling?] Buddhism and then in going through, you know, the Zen Buddhist koan curriculum, that was, it was very rigid, there's a way [00:24:53] you do it. There's even an entire different language almost for going through koans that if you don't, if you don't know it and if you don't do it, you're not going to pass. You're not going to advance. You know, it's almost [00:25:08] like learning that language, which is both, you know, poetic and performative. You know, there's a physical aspect to it. But learning that language is what allows your brain to operate [00:25:23] in the way that it needs to operate in order to get the insight that you need to get. ANDREW: Sure. MAL: You know, there's no book that you could read that, that, that, you know, could tell you that. There's a story out of Daido Loori's [00:25:38] place, Zen Mountain Monastery, back when he was still alive. They had a book with all the answers to the koans in it, and somebody stole it. And one of the head monks was like, you know, ran up to Daido Roshi and was like, "Hey, you know, somebody stole the book. What are [00:25:53] we gonna do? What if they publish it?" And Loori Roshi was like, yeah, don't worry about it. ANDREW: Mm-Hmm. MAL: The answers aren't in the book. It doesn't matter what was written down. The answers aren't in the book. ANDREW: Yeah. MAL: The answers are what we see in front of us. It's like, you know, I live here in Cincinnati. [00:26:08] And, if you read a ton of books about Cincinnati, but had never been here, and then tried to pass it off, you know, in talking to somebody that was born and raised here, they'd know pretty quickly you're full of shit. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. MAL: You know? [00:26:23] Whereas if you've both, you know, if you've been there, if you've visited there, if you're talking about "oh, man, you know, did they finish the construction over on . . ." or you know, all of that sort of stuff that just, you know, then they're like, "oh, yeah, yeah, you've been there." So I think . . . [00:26:39] There's definitely value to "this is the way things are done" for a lot of traditional things, just because, if you don't do it that way, you don't get the experience or have the effect that it's supposed [00:26:54] to provide, you know? ANDREW: Mm-hmm. For sure. Well, it's why, you know, my experience of memorizing tables of correspondences when I was doing ceremonial stuff, you know? MAL: [chuckles] ANDREW: I mean, on the one hand, it's like, well, why memorize [00:27:09] it, there are books, but on the other hand, it's, it preloads your cognition with a framework that stuff that wants to work within that framework can then work straight through . . . MAL: Absolutely. ANDREW: As opposed [00:27:24] to, you know, having to attempt to bridge that gap without that extra framework there, you know? MAL: Yeah. Absolutely. ANDREW: It's possible, anybody can have a vision of, you know, take your pick, and that might be authentic and whatever, but It's [00:27:39] a lot rarer and it's really atypical, as opposed to sort of the, you know, that that more you've done the work, [lost words at 27:48? sounds like "you're fed up"?] and now they're going to show you a thing in this way. MAL: Absolutely. Well, and you know, putting on my clinical [00:27:54] psych hat, in the middle of all of this I also went on and got various graduate degrees in psychology. We know that the thoughts that we think change the physical structure of our brains. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. MAL: You know, and so, memorizing [00:28:09] tables of correspondences, it's not just putting information in your head so that you can have it at quick recall. It's literally making a physical change to your brain. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. MAL: Is that physical change necessary? Is that, [00:28:24] you know, an integral component to the experience that you're trying to have? I-- Maybe not, but maybe it is, and if that's the case, if it's not just about being able to have something on immediate recall, in which case, you know, why don't [00:28:39] I just load, preload 777 on my phone? ANDREW: Sure. MAL: And then if I, if I need to know a correspondence, I'll pick it up. But you know, if it's not just about having that piece of information, but if it's about the change that it's affecting in your brain that is allowing [00:28:54] you to maybe perceive or experience, you know, something, then, you know, by not doing it, you're either never going to get there, or, like you said, it's going to be really damn rare that you get the experience that, you know, that [00:29:09] you're hoping for. ANDREW: Yeah. I think the, the, you know, the real answer is, the magic is in many, many parts of it, right? MAL: Yeah. ANDREW: And not just in the quote unquote secret word that activates the ritual or what, right? [00:29:24] MAL: [laughing] Exactly! ANDREW: It's got so many parts of it that that are not, they're not necessarily glamorous. They're almost never talked about overtly in books or in other contexts, right? MAL: Yeah. ANDREW: You know, I almost never see anybody talk about [00:29:39] that when I read a book about magic. It's like "yeah," and then you just like, do this thing and it'll happen. It's like, oh, maybe, maybe so. MAL: [laughing] Yeah. Sure. It's just the magic word. You just say the word, the word. ANDREW: Well, the bird is the word, right? That's where we'll go with that? MAL: [laughing] [00:29:56] Yeah. Well, I was going to say, Aidan Wachter recently made a post that I think brilliantly comes to this point and it was a . . . Oh, how did [00:30:11] it go? [sighs] See, I brought it up. Now I should at least be able to remember it, but it was along the lines of you know, the vast majority of success comes from mastering the basics. ANDREW: Yes. MAL: Not from some advanced, you know, rarefied thing, you know, [00:30:26] and he was coming from it from both an esoteric and a physical, you know, point of view. And I thought it was brilliant when I saw that. ANDREW: Yeah. I remember that post. He was basically sort of saying like, you know, sure, some super custom tailored [00:30:41] fancy technique might get you this extra increase, because--it was coming from a fitness training point of view, the article that he linked to--but the reality is, you know, showing up four days a week and you know doing the basic things, [00:30:56] that's going to get you almost everything and the other stuff is, you know, especially over the arc of time, right? So. MAL: Right. And that applies to so much of what we do, right? Just showing up and doing the basic stuff. And . . . ANDREW: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Absolutely. [00:31:13] MAL: Oh crap, there was, where was I going to go? There was . . . ? Eh, never mind. It'll come back to me if . . . [laughing] ANDREW: Let me ask you this question, then. So . . . MAL: Yeah. ANDREW: We've popped out this term a couple times here and there: gnostic. MAL: Okay. ANDREW: What is, [00:31:28] what does that mean to you? What does that mean? You know, like I hear it a lot. I've seen it a lot. You know, I mean, you know, Crowley talked about it a bunch, you know different people talk about it, you know, there's the knights cathars and you know, all that stuff or whatever. [00:31:43] But what does it mean to you? What does it actually . . . What's the relevance of it at this point in time? MAL: Sure. Well, so first off a caveat, I . . . Technically, I don't even really identify myself as gnostic any more, [00:31:59] which, I suppose is actually kind of peak gnosticism, itself. ANDREW: We live in a post gnostic era? MAL: Right. And I'm glad when you asked, you asked, you know, "What does gnosticism mean to you?" Because it is [00:32:14] a . . . I mean it's . . . We apply it retroactively to a lot of ideas, right? None of the ancient texts, like none of the Gnostic Gospels say, "And I am now writing this Gnostic Gospel." ANDREW: Mm-hmm. MAL: Or, you know . . . [00:32:30] Gnosis, for me, the way, the way I learned it, the way I taught it, and the way I experienced it, gnosis is knowledge as opposed to [00:32:45] information. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. MAL: And specifically, it's that, it's that noetic apprehension that comes after the sort of die neue [spelling?]. [00:33:00] After the intellectual information gathering and crunching and . . . It's an apprehended knowing, you know, in the spiritual sense. More mundanely, it's just knowing [00:33:15] right? It's eating peanut butter rather than having somebody read off the ingredient list of peanut butter to you. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. Yeah. The experience of it. MAL: Yeah, you can never tell somebody else what peanut butter tastes like. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. MAL: You can taste it then and then from then on you will forever and always [00:33:30] know what peanut butter tastes like. And that is, you know, exponentially different from knowing what goes into it. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. MAL: And, and so, in a spiritual and in a magical sense, then, gnosis is [00:33:45] that experience, just like we were talking about, that experience that comes from doing certain things. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. MAL: You know, and, and it's specifically that experience that can only come from doing certain [00:34:00] things as opposed to just reading about them. Whether that's a, you know, an in esoterica or spiritual, religious, and, and oftentimes those are blended. You know, you can read about an experience [00:34:15] of the divine. Or you can have it. I think one of the most underappreciated esoteric texts out there is by St. John Chrysostom, in defense of the hesacasts. So hesacasts, heretic [00:34:30] Orthodox, not heretic but almost, near heretic Orthodox sect, who practiced hesachasm, this, this mystical combination of the Jesus prayer kind of a yoga position and breathing [00:34:45] technique that they said would allow you to experience the energies of the divine. ANDREW: Hmm. MAL: In fact, you know, advanced practitioners of this were said to literally physically glow, like they would just glow in the dark. And this got [00:35:00] a lot of bishops' panties in a twist and John Chrysostom wrote this brilliant defense of them, basically laying out theologically why this, this theosis, this knowing of [00:35:15] God is not heretical. You know, they're not saying they can know God, because you can't wrap a finite mind around an infinite thing, but you can experience, right? Can you hear that humming right now? ANDREW: [00:35:30] No, from your side? No. MAL: Yeah, so, my mic, I'm going to flick it real quick. [thump] I fixed it. Sorry, I've got a loose connector there. ANDREW: Uh huh. MAL: But, you can experience it. You can have an experience of it and he likened it to a number of different things. [00:35:45] One of them was, you know, sitting in a ray of sunshine: you know it, you can experience it. It's not all of it. Nobody's saying it is. But that, that's gnosis to me, [00:36:00] that experience. ANDREW: So, let's, I'm gonna ask you a really unfair question. Okay? MAL: Okay. Sure. ANDREW: So, how do people determine what is different [00:36:15] between an authentic gnosis with something, with a spirit, with god, with wherever, and a more [00:36:30] psychological, or, you know, even intellectualized engagement with it, you know? Because there's so many people who have experiences of different things, and you know, going back to your, your Zen stuff [00:36:45] and to your Tibetan stuff. There are very clear things that are markers, right? For what's an authentic experience, you know, and I even remember when I was in the Aurum Solis, I came to my teacher and I was like, I had this, I had this experience [00:37:00] with one of the archangels, and they showed up in this way. And he's like, "Great," and then he pulls out a piece of paper and shows like, pulls out a book from his notes about it and shows me what I saw. He's like, that's, that's [00:37:15] because you're, you've moved beyond your own cognitive stuff being in the way of that connection. MAL: Yeah. ANDREW: You know? So, how do people know that, though? How do people even begin to work with that if this is a new idea for [00:37:30] them? MAL: You know, it's, the easiest way is having a teacher, right? ANDREW: Sure. MAL: There's the famous story of Gampopa and Milarepa, his, the yogi Milarepa, who was Gampopa's meditation [00:37:45] teacher and at that time, you know, the Tibetans generally don't meditate in groups. They don't do silent meditation. They get the instruction. They go away, they practice, then they come back. And Gampopa came to his, Milarepa after some time practicing, [00:38:00] and he's like, "I don't know what's going on, but I'm beset by devils constantly. This is what . . ." And Milarepa was like, "Just chill out, keep doing the practice, that that'll all go away." A few months later, Gampopa comes back again, and he was like, "Teacher, you're, you're so right. It's amazing. [00:38:15] All the devils were chased off. Now. I'm visited constantly by angels and dakinis and it's just wonderful and it's bliss." And Milarepa was like, "Uh huh, that's cool. Just keep practicing, that will go away." ANDREW: Sure. MAL: You know, having that that teacher that can that can guide you . . . [00:38:30] You know, in Buddhism, especially in Tibetan Buddhism, emptiness, shunyata, big deal, and having an experience of emptiness is a big deal. Like this is [00:38:45] one of the major mileposts and the literature is just scattered with warnings about, you know, don't intellectualize this, don't intellectualize this, because [00:39:00] when you do, when you get an idea in your head of what that experience is, you reify it and then you're stuck, right? You're stuck with that idea. And you think "Oh, I have had this experience and therefore . . ." You know, and without [00:39:15] sort of that external verification by somebody else who's been there, right? Without talking about Cincinnati with somebody who's also been there, you know and confirm: Yes. Absolutely. I know exactly the street corner you're talking about, or you know, whatever, you can easily [00:39:30] be led astray. How, how does somebody working on their own do this? Well, that's tough, you know, at that point, I think you have to, [00:39:45] I think initially approach, you know, unverified personal gnosis, UPG, with skepticism. ANDREW: Yeah. MAL: You know, I think that has to be the default when you're on your own, no matter how amazingly lifelike and 3D [00:40:00] this apparition was, or like, initially approach it with some degree of skepticism, keeping in your mind, well, this could just be wishful thinking or this could be, you know, whatever, [00:40:15] and then give it time, right? If it was a teaching, if it was a practice, if it . . . Does it bear out? ANDREW: Yeah. MAL: Are there, are there, are there are external things that coincide with it? If you . . . You know, you're given a vision of this, you know, amazing new practice [00:40:30] and then the very next day somebody randomly starts talking to you about, you know, a symbol which is exactly like the linchpin for that practice or, you know, you know, somebody brings you something that you [00:40:45] specifically need in order to . . . You know, you look for confirmation still from outside, even if it's not from a specific like teacher in a lineage of a thing . . . ANDREW: Mm-hmm. MAL: You're still looking for that external confirmation. [00:41:00] And it may not be for years and years and years that all of a sudden something happens and then it clicks and you're like, oh my God, I had that dream, you know, three years ago about this and then here is this . . . [00:41:15] Holy crap. This is a, you know, okay, then you go with it. But no, if otherwise, if somebody shows up and just says, "hey, you're the chosen one," or you know, you're yet another incarnation of Alistair, or you know, whatever, [00:41:30] you know, maybe keep that in your back pocket. ANDREW: Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I think that that time will tell, right? MAL: Yeah. ANDREW: Time will tell. We'll see if this holds the test of time, for sure. MAL: Right, you know, and you can have, I think, amazing personal experiences that are meaningful [00:41:45] to you. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. MAL: That you never say anything to anyone about or do anything with. And that's okay. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. MAL: They don't have to be huge revelations. Or they don't have to be, you know, even if it was something that was just the product of your own mind, [00:42:01] maybe it's useful to you. But again, yeah, I think that in order to tell the difference between genuine, a genuine experience of gnosis, like that, yeah, it's external confirmation. ANDREW: And so, [00:42:16] that brings back sort of one of the other questions that I wanted to check in about: what role does lineage play, for you, in all of these things? I mean, I know in my Lukumi lineage, you know, lineage is everything. You know? I mean [00:42:31] you are, you are, in that, in my tradition, you are initiated into the lineage. MAL: Right. ANDREW: You know, lineage becomes your family, and, and that changes so many different dynamics because of it. You know, it's not just like, it's not just [00:42:46] about the information that was passed from person to person, but it's actually the license to practice certain things, the requirement to practice them in a certain way in accordance with lineage, and a connection to all of those spirits who carried that [00:43:01] lineage forward, you know? MAL: Right. ANDREW: So it's a, it's a very living dynamic thing. What role does lineage play for you? And, and what do you see as its sort of values and challenges? You know? MAL: Wow. [00:43:17] I'm going to cheat and refer back to something that I wrote a while ago. ANDREW: Which is always welcome. MAL: Okay, cool. I tend to think in terms of three different kinds of lineage for any organization. ANDREW: Yeah. MAL: Physical lineage, [00:43:33] practice lineage, and, you know, ultimate or primordial lineage, right? Which, so, and what do I mean by these? The physical lineage is just the people, the stuff, right? The boots on the ground, the people doing the thing, the [00:43:48] buildings, the, you know, the institution. The practice lineage is the stuff they tell you to do. Right? These are the, these are the teachings that ideally have been, you know, tried, [00:44:03] tested, passed on, initiatory aspects of initiatory power, right? That are meant to facilitate things. Obeah or apostolic succession. These are all conferrals of a power [00:44:18] meant to facilitate something. Sorry. I'm going to thump the mic here again. ANDREW: I think you might be picking up on the, someone's running a shop vac or something downstairs. I'm also hearing that in the background. MAL: [00:44:33] Then I'll trust it's on your end and not mine. ANDREW: Yeah. MAL: So, yeah, the practice lineage there. And then the primordial lineage is what you're ultimately connecting to via these three things, [00:44:48] right? So, the physical lineage exists primarily to transmit to the people it brings in. The practice lineage, which then facilitates connection to the [00:45:03] primordial lineage. And, you know, the first two exist ultimately . . . They function only to the point that they do those things, right? If at any point a physical institution loses its connection [00:45:18] to the primordial lineage, they're dead. Right? It's just a, it's a fossil. It's a club. It's a, it's, you know, it's cosplay or whatever. If the practices [00:45:34] no longer facilitate connecting you to that primordial lineage, then they're not doing their thing, right? They don't work anymore. But then once that connection to the primordial lineage is made, at that [00:45:49] point, new practice lineages and new physical lineages can be instituted. Without that connection, they can't be. You know, this is, this is one of those things that, like in Buddhism, people, [00:46:04] there's this idea from people outside of it. For example, tons of sutra is attributed to the Buddha, but he, you know, we know historically he didn't say these things. The Buddha didn't write that. The Lotus Sutra isn't taught by the . . . But no, technically, yeah, he did, because [00:46:19] within . . . You know, the game rules of Buddhism state [chuckling] that there is only one Enlightenment, right? Buddha means awakened. Once you have had that experience, right, once you're connected [00:46:34] to that primordial lineage, there's no difference between you and Siddhartha Gautama, right? So, if you have legitimately had that experience within the game rules, you can write something today and [00:46:49] say this is a text by the Buddha. ANDREW: Mmm. MAL: And that's, you know, 100% legit. There are institutions [00:47:06] where I think you can bypass some of this, but I find them to be so phenomenally rare. Right? The person that just [00:47:21] stumbles upon either a practice lineage that works to connect them to a primordial lineage, or, or, you know . . . Okay, a big example of this, you know, with what I'm doing now, apostolic [00:47:36] succession is a huge thing. Right? There is a conferral of authority and power with that, without which, none of the other sacraments will be there. Period. Full stop. Yet, [00:47:51] within broader Christianity, very few people question the legitimacy of Paul as an apostle. Because in the middle of his, you know, previous [00:48:06] life as a, and I don't know if you can hear the air quotes I put around that, [chuckles] as a, you know, assassin for hire, he had this vision, on, was it, the [00:48:21] the road to Emmaus? [He means Damascus. The road to Emmaus is where Jesus appeared after his resurrection.] I think. Anyway, he had this vision of Christ and he converted and now he's an apostle. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. MAL: And I think most, most people in the broader Christian world: "Okay, we'll accept that." You won't find any apostolic lineages, [00:48:36] I believe, tracing themselves back to Paul. I'd be surprised if you did, but you know, nobody lists him as an apostle with an asterisk by his name, kind of thing. ANDREW: Right. MAL: But you also then don't hear about this happening [00:48:51] all the damn time. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. MAL: You know, nobody spontaneously . . . Well, damn it, okay. The gnostic revival in France in the 19th century, [laughing] Jules Doinel. Yeah. Okay, he claimed it. But then, even [00:49:06] he went on to get actual apostolic succession. So. You know, I think it's rare. It's more rare than people think. ANDREW: I think there's a big difference between a connection to spirit, [00:49:23] you know, and even a spirit that might have, you know, like, you know, I mean, I'm certainly not the reincarnation of Crowley, but perhaps, perhaps I could connect to his spirit in a way, and his, his Spirit could act as [00:49:38] a guide and an animating force in my work, you know? MAL: Absolutely, yeah. ANDREW: I'm not saying that that happens per se, but, but that could happen. And that is not uncommon, you know. MAL: Right. ANDREW: [00:49:53] Like there, there are lots of things you know, where . . . MAL: But, when those things do happen . . . ANDREW: Yeah. MAL: But when that does happen, there's a lot that preceded that. ANDREW: Yes. MAL: Right? It doesn't, it doesn't happen to, you know, the random grocery [00:50:08] store clerk who has, you know, never even picked up a copy of book four, or you know, whatever. Right? ANDREW: For sure. And, but that experience is also not necessarily the same as the experience of the [00:50:23] connection to that primordial, you know, energy or the current even though if I was connecting to Crowley, I'm connecting to you know, the prophet of Thelema, that doesn't mean that I'm actually connected [00:50:38] to that step behind that, you know? MAL: Right. Right. ANDREW: And I think that . . . I think that's also an interesting distinction, you know, and that's where lineage and traditional initiation facilitate that. MAL: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: You know, because you may connect to that current, possibly, as you [00:50:53] say, there are examples, but I think there's a big difference between connecting to a spirit that engages your work and guides you and something sort of one step further beyond that into that lineage, that [00:51:08] deeper force, you know? MAL: Right. And, and access to one aspect of a lineage also doesn't necessarily confer access to another aspect of lineage. So, for, you know, I have [00:51:23] apostolic succession via the episcopi vagantes, you know, right, the wandering bishops. And we may trace our lineage, you know, even up into, you know popes in Rome, but that doesn't make me [00:51:38] a Roman Catholic bishop. Right, that's the physical institution, and even though I might have access to both primordial or, you know, both practice and primordial lineage there, that grants me absolutely no standing whatsoever in the physical, you [00:51:54] know, lineage kind of thing, which is something I think a lot of people tend to forget, especially in the independent sacramental movement. They tend to not get that these things are [00:52:09] . . . They're disparate. They're separate. They're discrete things. Yes. Generally they're connected and hopefully, you know, if you get involved in one, it is, but yeah, if you stumble across it, if you just happen to meet up with some guy in [00:52:24] a, you know, hotel bar in Ontario and get, this sounds so bad now that I'm saying it out loud, get invited back up to his hotel room to get consecrated as a bishop one night . . . [laughing] Great. [00:52:39] You know, that doesn't mean, you know, you can show up at the Vatican and be like, you know, where's my room? ANDREW: Like, yeah, that dude. He initiated 50 people that week. Come on! MAL: [laughing] Right? [00:52:54] Yeah. So. It's, you know, lineage is, lineage is important. And, you know, I'm sure you could make the case that even though I'm breaking it down into three different things that you could say, well, they're really all the different aspects of the same thing, [00:53:09] and you could probably break it down even, you know, you could break it into four different aspects or two or whatever. But you know, in general, I think, for those three reasons at least, lineage is important, especially [00:53:24] in religious, spiritual, and, and esoteric bodies wherein the point is connection with something higher, with that primordial aspect. If, you know, if the point is just [00:53:39] education, then, you know, lineage is, you know, by-the-book kind of. Like the modern grimoire revival. There's no living lineage, you know, Solomonic lineage that's [00:53:54] passing this kind of thing . . . No, it's: you find the book, you, as best you can, decipher what the hell they're talking about. ANDREW: Uh-huh. MAL: You do it as best you can and you hope like hell you have an experience similar to what they said you're going to have. And that's [00:54:09] kind of it. The book, at that point, is the lineage until, you know, you make that connection. The book then is the practice lineage. There is no physical institution, you know, physical aspect of it. And then, you know, hopefully you do the practice until [00:54:24] you get that that connection that then continues in your work. You know, I think a physical institution could happen, but it's not necessary. So I guess even in that [00:54:39] sense, there is a lineage or just accessing it through the information that's passed on through both having the right book, having the, the brains to figure out what the hell it's saying, and then having the guts to follow through and do what it's saying. [00:54:54] ANDREW: Yeah, I mean I tend to look at some of that stuff as more, more technological, right? MAL: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: Like, I mean more in that second realm of the practice. MAL: Yeah. ANDREW: Than the lineage, because I think [00:55:09] that you can, to some extent, plug some of that into whatever lineage you, you might have access to, right? Or whatever sort of primordial elements you would have access to, you know? MAL: Right. ANDREW: When I was very interested in those kinds of things, [00:55:25] you know, I was, I was not interested in the Golden Dawn. I was very interested in Thelema. And, so I would just go through and swap out all the words, you know, the words that weren't Thelemic for words that were Thelemic and do work in that direction, [00:55:40] and then use that, that sort of connection to that primordial juice and that piece of it to you know, you know, call up whomever and be like, hey, listen, by the power of Babylon you're going to do this, or whatever . . . MAL: [laughing] ANDREW: You know, and, and [00:55:55] I think that's possible, because it's, it becomes, the grimoire stuff can be more technological maybe than sort of lineage-based necessarily. MAL In general, I tend to think tech is tech. [00:56:10] But you know, then again there are lineages where, without having the appropriate lineage, it doesn't matter what knowledge or information you have, it's not gonna work, or it's not going to work the way you want it to. You know, when you look at, [00:56:25] you know, Tibetan Buddhist magic, or just Tibetan Buddhist practice, you know, if, if you're, if you don't have the empowerment of a particular deity, the practice is at best ineffectual [00:56:40] and at worst dangerous, because you're in effect, you know, trying to contact these, these powerful personalities and they don't know who the hell you are. ANDREW: Right. MAL: Right? It would be, it [00:56:55] would be like showing up at, I don't know, pick a, pick a powerful, a famous powerful person who could be dangerous to you. I immediately, I don't want to make this political, I immediately think Trump. [laughing] [00:57:10] Not that you can, anybody, I don't, you know what? I'm not even going to go there. Um, but yeah, you pick a person with temporal power. All right, prime minister of Canada, Justin Trudeau. He seems like a really nice guy. [00:57:25] Right? I mean everybody in Canada seems so super nice to us here in the hinterlands, but I bet as nice as he is, if I went to Canada, and I saw him on the street, if I came running up to [00:57:40] him at full tilt saying, hey Justin, let me . . . You know, trying to get . . . I'm thinking there's some people that would tackle me to the ground. ANDREW: Exactly. Yeah. MAL: You know, and so, you know, the empowerment, that connection to that lineage at that point is the facilitation of that contact, right? It's somebody [00:57:55] coming in who has that connection, somebody who's saying, hey, you know what? Let me introduce you to my good friend, Mr. Trudeau. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. MAL: And then, once they facilitated the introduction and we've shared a couple of drinks or whatever, at that point, you know, I can then, you know, wave from him [00:58:10] from across the street and maybe he'll remember me and then we bump into each other, you know, that sort of thing. ANDREW: Sure. MAL: And, and I'm absolutely convinced that Tibetan Buddhism can't be the only place where something like that is, is [00:58:25] required, where if you don't have the hook-up, if you don't have the official connection to that lineage through the prescribed means, you know, best of luck to you. ANDREW: Yeah, yeah. Something might happen, but who's [00:58:40] to say what it is and yeah, how it's going to go. MAL: Yeah. And whether or not you wanted it! [chuckling] ANDREW: Exactly, exactly, for sure. So, we've been, we've been chatting for a long time, because this has been really lovely, and I want to ask you one more question before we wrap it up though. [00:58:55] MAL: Sure. ANDREW: Because there's one other thing we haven't gotten to, which I was delightfully enjoying on your Facebook, which is these various statements of gnostic belief, [00:59:10] you know, or the sort of, you know, where you're discussing how you believe in, you know, this, the fallen angel, and the energy that comes with that, and how you believe in Christ in this way, and how you believe [00:59:25] in, you know what I mean? If we think about the apostles' creed, we have a very clear example of a statement in that direction, but you know, all sorts of traditions have their own. But your seemingly contradictory, [00:59:41] from some people's perspective, ideas about the nature of the universe, really both sort of tickled my fancy . . . MAL: [chuckles] ANDREW: And, [laughing] if that's, if that's not a weird thing to say and reflected [00:59:56] a bunch of my own kind of contradictory or apparently contradictory notions about it. So I'm curious what, what you were looking to do as you were expressing that and sort of what kinds of beliefs you have around, [01:00:11] you know, the nature of the universe in that kind of construct. MAL: In general, I have a very dim view of belief. [laughing] I think they're very dangerous things, people ought to stop having them. ANDREW: Uh-huh. MAL: [01:00:27] And when I post that . . . I think one of the worst things that ever happened to the world was--and this is ironic, I think, coming from me--is Christianity and its emphasis on creeds. You know, Christianity was weird for any number of things, when it arrived on the [01:00:42] scene, but one of the things that it was most weird for was that it was a creedal religion. It was, you know, it pivoted around what people believe as opposed to what people did. It wasn't performative. And, you know, this idea of having right belief [01:00:57] then is something that came into play and, you know, I think history has shown us what a dangerous thing requiring right belief can be. ANDREW: Sure. MAL: And then determining that. When I post [01:01:12] shit like that, and I feel absolutely justified in calling it that, a lot of times it's just to kind of work out for myself what's been bouncing around in my head, what's going on at the time, [01:01:27] and also looking for a little bit of that sort of external verification, right? If everybody responded with a what are you on? or did you not sleep last night? or is that . . . You know, then I know, okay, this is maybe a little bit out there, but then when I get responses [01:01:42] like, you know, that really tickled my fancy, or you know, that's a sign that, okay, you know, maybe, maybe I might have figured a little bit of something out, or maybe I might have glimpsed a little bit of something here. And I think [01:01:57] having creeds that don't fit together nicely works together well for me. And by creed, you know, having beliefs that are paradoxical, that, that aren't, you know, that are sometimes juxtaposed [01:02:12] against each other, is beneficial. I mean, it goes back to, I think what I was talking about with my own sort of practice, where you know, you take these two disparate things, you take these two different books, two diametrically opposed . . . See what comes out of it. [01:02:27] See what, see what you make from it. And I think a lot of times, the thing that makes something paradoxical is really just a limitation of our language. ANDREW: Sure. MAL: You know, [01:02:43] I get a lot of, I think I get the most push back, for example, with the Church of Light and Shadow, which is, you know, my newest endeavor, because I talk about the morning star and people [01:02:58] are like, well, okay, you seem to be implying that this is both Jesus and Lucifer, which is it? And I'm kind of like well, yeah, you know, we have this tradition that Lucifer is the Fallen Angel. However, [01:03:14] there's only one figure in the Bible who ever identified themselves as the Morning Star. ANDREW: Mmm. MAL: That's Christ in the Book of Revelation. ANDREW: Sure. MAL: You know, and the more I sat with that and their specific [01:03:29] roles and functions, especially the. you know, not, not the, not the Satan of you know, the HaSatan or you know of, the opposer of . . . ANDREW: Or Anton LaVey. MAL: Right. Yeah, but this . . . [01:03:44] more the Lucifer of Milton and Dante, and, you know, the very popular romantic Promethean myth of Lucifer that we have today. That is very much a Christ figure [01:03:59] when you look at the role that Christ played. Right? Christ did not show up and be like, "You know, what? All right, everybody just do what the temple priests say, and follow . . ." You know, he was very much an ego-driven [01:04:16] individual. I mean, we can consider the gospels as spurious as we would like as far as whether or not this figure, Jesus, actually said these things. But the [01:04:31] one thing that you know, like when you get to, like the Jesus scholars, that came together and try to figure out well, what's most likely that he said? One of the things that they had pinpointed as most likely coming from Jesus, based on what we know of the context, and what got passed . . . [01:04:47] His doing away with the old law and saying, "A new law I give to you," right? "Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and love your neighbor as yourself." [01:05:03] And what people gloss over here is, it's not saying, love your neighbor, which by that he means that everybody, right, love everybody else. He's not saying love them more than yourself. He's not saying debase yourself before . . . He's saying love them [01:05:19] as yourself. And if you don't love yourself a great deal, you're gonna be shitty at loving anybody else. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. MAL: You know, how Luciferian is that? You know, he . . . [01:05:34] And so looking at these two figures in that way, looking at them both as, as light bringers . . . You know, in fact, it was really, it was not until I looked at [01:05:50] the gospels and teaching of, teachings of Jesus from a Luciferian perspective, that they really started to make sense to me. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. MAL: Does that make sense? ANDREW: It does. It does, for sure. MAL: And so, I think there's, [01:06:05] there's, there's definitely something there, and this, this perspective is not new. I did not make this up. ANDREW: Sure. MAL: This idea of having a, you know, a sacramental Christian Church practicing [01:06:20] folk magic is also not new, you know, magic and Christianity have been tied together for as long as they're . . . ANDREW: Catholics everywhere. Right? MAL: Right. Yeah. I mean, I think I commented recently on Facebook that you know, if you're not ready to accept that Christianity [01:06:35] is a weird necromantic cult, then you're not ready to study church history. ANDREW: Yeah. MAL: But when looking around for this, you know, for something that really embodied and [01:06:50] embraced that, I couldn't find it. There's nothing, you know, like there's, there's, there's nothing out there. There are Catholic witches that are, you know, going to mass, and you know, practicing in private or in secret, [01:07:05] and there are Christian witches, but there's no organization that's embracing both of these things. And the more I kept looking for this, and the more I kept posting, you know, both things like, you know what? I believe this and I believe this and the more [01:07:20] feedback I kept getting from people saying, you know, yeah. Yeah, me too! Where's that from? This ought to be a thing! ANDREW: Mm-hmm. MAL: And you know, I'm a firm believer that we have enough independent apostolic [01:07:35] Christian churches running around. I don't know how familiar you are with the independent sacramental movement, but in general, you know, you end up with jurisdictions of one, somebody belongs to a church long enough to get consecrated a bishop. [01:07:50] And then they're out of there so they can go do things the right way. ANDREW: They had a great experience while they were in Vegas from somebody they met in the bar. MAL: [chuckling] Right? Next thing, you know, then they're off. ANDREW: Yeah. MAL: You know, and so, I get in trouble, I get [01:08:05] people in the independent sacramental movement angry with me when I tell them, you know, look, if it's really about the mission, like you say it is, you would stop what you're doing, find a larger church that's actually already doing this, and doing it a lot better because they've got the bodies [01:08:20] and the resources, and you'd join them, you're doing this just for the title. And so I was, I was loathe to start yet another church. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. MAL: You know. ANDREW: Well, and I think just before [01:08:35] you move past that point, too . . . MAL: Yeah. ANDREW: And I think there's also value in doing a thing like becoming a bishop for yourself. MAL: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. That's great too. ANDREW: You know, I mean, many many Orisha practitioners become priests for their own [01:08:50] well-being, you know, and that's fantastic, but be clear about that, and then go from there, you know. MAL: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely, you know, I went for years ordaining people and limiting their faculties. [01:09:05] So, when you're ordained a priest, you receive faculties or permissions from the bishop that tells you what you can and can't do, basically. And I would ordain esoteric practitioners who just [01:09:20] wanted that, that plug into apostolic succession for their own spiritual and magical practice. And I would, you know, I would tell them well, okay, great, but without any sort of pastoral education, I'm not going to license you [01:09:35] to do any sort of pastoral work. [laughs] You don't get to go start a church, you can say mass in your home privately, that sort of thing, that's fine. Just go be a private priest. And it took a lot to move me away from that [01:09:50] and, and decide, okay, you know what? I think I am. I think there's enough momentum around this to do something about it, to found it. I'm a firm believer in, if you have an idea for something great, and nobody else has done or is [01:10:05] doing it, maybe that's a sign it's supposed to be you. And after poking around and getting enough encouragement, I decided all right, screw it, we're going to do it. But if we're going to do it, this is how it's going to happen. ANDREW: You'
The Hermit's Lamp Podcast - A place for witches, hermits, mystics, healers, and seekers
The band brings back Jenn Zahrt to catch up on how the winds of change are moving everyone. The gang gets into how to roll with change and work magic to aid it too. Think about how much you've enjoyed the podcast and how many episodes you listened to, and consider if it is time to support the Patreon You can do so here. If you want more of this in your life you can subscribe by Spotify, RSS , iTunes, Stitcher, or email. Fabeku is at Fabeku.com and Facebook. Aidan is at AidanWachter.com on Facebook and Instagram Jenn JennZahrt.com or CelestialSpark.com and on Facebook and Instagram. Andrew is on Facebook, Instagram, and TheHermit'sLamp.com. Thanks for joining the conversation. Please share the podcast to help us grow and change the world. Andrew You can book time with Andrew through his site here. Transcript ANDREW: [00:00:03] Hey everybody, welcome to episode 100 of The Hermit's Lamp podcast. I decided to get the band together for this episode. So, I am here with Stacking Skulls, being Fabeku and Aidan and myself and we have corralled [00:00:18] Jen Zahrt to come in and add to the mix today. So, hey, everybody! FABEKU: Hey. AIDAN: Howdy. ANDREW: It's three months since we recorded, four months since we recorded, what's going on in your worlds? How are things, what's up? [00:00:34] AIDAN: I've been good. I'm just enjoying the spring. Weather has been lovely. We got new kittens and yeah, everything is good. I, since the last time, we crested the one [00:00:49] year on Six Ways. So that's kind of wild, is to realize that that's been out and perking for more than a year. ANDREW: Yeah. JEN: Wow. AIDAN: And yeah, it's just, just keepin' on! ANDREW: That's great. [00:01:04] How 'bout you, Fabeku? FABEKU: Uh, good. It's been, yeah, probably the best thing for me. I've been doing tons of art, just cranking out tons and tons of art on an almost daily basis, which is good and [00:01:19] fun and exciting and then writing like crazy, usually in the middle of the night, which kind of sucks, but you know, at least it's getting done. Yeah, digging the spring/summerish weather that's finally happening, and [00:01:35] yeah, it's good, mostly things are good. Tea, donuts, cats, you know, usual shit. So. ANDREW: Usual stuff. FABEKU: Yeah. For sure. ANDREW: Curtains being destroyed. FABEKU: Yes, every day, every day. [laughs] ANDREW: How about you, Jen, [00:01:50] you went on a bit of an adventure? JEN: Yeah. I realized I'm on day 87 of my trip. [laughter] JEN: And it's been um, three continents, and also, you know, [00:02:05] I thought to myself like when I go home, I'm not really going home to anywhere specific and that it's been almost just over 400 days since my apartment flooded last year. So, I really haven't been home for quite a long time. Yeah, so [00:02:20] it's a wild ride. ANDREW: How do you find that sense of continuously shifting right? Because since the flood you've been sort of on the move in one sense or another that whole time, right? [00:02:35] JEN: Yeah, pretty much. I always have traveled to England for work. So, when I come here, I feel . . . That's where I am right now. I'm in Bristol, United Kingdom right now. So, I'm staying with somebody who I've stayed with for longer than I ever lived in the apartment that I had, so [00:02:50] it feels more like home than my home did, but it doesn't have any of my stuff in it. So that's a continuity. And yeah, it really makes you think about continuity and change. I really enjoyed the cross-country trip that I took last year, [00:03:05] and I went to Mongolia last year as well. So, these things were sort of moments of excitement and I was staying in a temporary place in Seattle. But yeah, so it's just kind of, it's been kind of having to roll with it. And ironically, [00:03:20] it's been amazing creatively because I've had all of this energy unlocked to just do my stuff, you know, like, and try to do magic on the run. [laughs] So, yeah. ANDREW: And how is magic on the run? JEN: [00:03:37] Not as easy as you'd think. Well, I mean, maybe you wouldn't think it's easy. [laughter] JEN: But yeah, it can happen. You can do it. It's possible. You just have to get really creative and not be too attached to certain things. You know, you can't reify like, that object, you [00:03:52] know, you sort of have to just launch a sigil when you need to launch a sigil and not be too concerned about being precious about the things that you're using. ANDREW: But do you think it's changed your, the way you're approaching stuff going [00:04:07] forward, or do you think you'll sort of revert to what you were up to before once that's more of an option? JEN: I don't really know. The astrology's showing me that it's going to be quite a while until I have something that people [00:04:22] would consider fixed and stable. So . . . [laughs] Knowing that, I'm just kind of like, okay, you know what? Here we go, swim, you know, you can't really fight it. So I'm really trying to go with it. Yeah. ANDREW: Yeah. AIDAN: We're trying to pretend that we're being, that we're fixed and stable but we expected this. [00:04:37] [laughter] JEN: Well, that's just it, you know, it is actually an illusion! [laughter] AIDAN: It's probably a load of crap, so . . . [laughter] JEN: It's an illusion, and sadly, Andrew knows all too well! You know, you have this thing where you're like, it's all good, it's going, it's going, and suddenly, boosh, it's gone. And like what are you going to do, you know? ANDREW: Yeah. JEN: And you just have to keep going, you know? AIDAN: Well, that was my interpretation of Andrew's stream of questioning, is he's like, okay! [laughter] What can I dig out of here that would be helpful? [laughter] ANDREW: Right? For sure! For folks who may not know, on March [00:05:08] 20th, my store had a fire and basically everything was destroyed. You know, nobody was . . . Nobody was hurt seriously. Firemen had some issues with smoke during the fire. But other than that, everybody was okay, and they're okay now. [00:05:23] But yeah, it's a big change, right? You know, I've been running the shop for six, almost seven years, I've been in that space for almost, for over 5, you know, and it's . . . Yeah, what can you do, right? [00:05:38] Uranus transits your midheaven and you're like, "Oh, I guess I'm changing a whole lot of stuff about where I'm going." [laughter] ANDREW: Unexpectedly, right? JEN: Yeah. Exactly. ANDREW: Yeah, and you know, I mean, kind of what I hear from what you're saying, Jen, which is what I've been [00:05:53] really trying to do is: Okay, how do you just lean into that change, right? JEN: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: Instead of being like, "Oh my God, how do I get back to where I was?" How do you, how do you kind of lean into that? How do you accept that and embody that? You know and I, [00:06:08] because you know, after the fire, there's so many questions about whether or not, like what would be the future of the space that I was in. I have the answer now. It's going to be a very long time and I'm not going back there. So, that's done. [00:06:24] You know, what's, what do you do next? How do you do stuff? You know? JEN: Yeah. ANDREW: And when you've been doing it for a while, it's often, if, it's often so much easier to sustain than it is to step [00:06:39] back into it as if you're starting over, you know? And so, you know, for me, the the prospect of retail is a big question mark, as it stands because rents in Toronto are insane, and because I'd been there [00:06:54] for such a long time. I had such a good deal, right? So. JEN: Yeah. ANDREW: Looking at all those possibilities, but also endeavoring to lean deeply into that change and be like: Okay, what what can I do? What would I like to do? Where's my excitement about this [00:07:09] stuff? You know? And so, just last week, from the recording of this, I took over a space that I'm calling The Hermit's Lab, and it's a space to, you know, see clients and teach, but also to work magic [00:07:24] and make products and make art and you know, really kind of get into what I've been enjoying anyways, which is the, the process of, like, you know, collecting plants and making things from them, and you know, doing stuff like that, that sort [00:07:39] of more, more, more active magic and craftsmanship, and more stuff that comes out of, you know, my, my sense of connection to the land and the plants and the things that are here, you know, [00:07:54] so, yeah. JEN: Yeah, yeah, it's, it just clears the decks in a way, and you think differently because all the potential things that used to be habits are completely shifted and you can't rely on that default mode anymore. ANDREW: Yeah, exactly. [00:08:10] AIDAN: Yeah, it is an interesting thing to think about cause there's a way that I look at . . . I know what Fabeku's up to, I know what y'all are up to, and the shifts that I did in the shop and everything kind of produced that same thing. You know, Blu and I just looked at it and went: [00:08:25] Okay, if we do this, we'll be able to pay the rent, and so, let's just do that and see where we end up and what makes sense to do in there. And we're way deep in that process because it's, it is, it's like, yeah, we've gotten into the habit we were in, even though we've [00:08:40] moved a lot, and switching that up changes, changes the possibilities. FABEKU: Yeah. I think it's interesting because I was thinking about, I mean for me, a lot of the flux and shift . . . It hasn't been location-based so much, because that's not, [00:08:55] that's hasn't been much of my experience. But you know, there's just been weird health shit in the last handful of years and stuff just pops up out of the blue like, every, everything is totally cool, and the next thing you're in the emergency room. And they're like, "Oh, you could have died." And it's like, what the fuck is happening, right? And then [00:09:10] on the other side of that things are different, and you, like Jen was saying, you, you end up doing magic differently. Again, for me, not because I'm traveling and don't have access to my stuff, because there's, there's different physical capacity, there's different energetic capacity, or there's just different bandwidth. And [00:09:25] you know, I was thinking, I think originally, one of my main drivers in getting into magic was I wanted . . . This was, you know, 30 whatever years ago. So it shows the sort of naivete of youth, but it was this desire [00:09:40] to somehow control the chaos, right? Like if I can, if I can just get a firm enough grip on it, then shit won't pop up out of the blue and shit doesn't happen and these weird things . . . you know, of course, all this anxiety, fear-driven kind of stuff. And then at some point, you realize: "Oh, [00:09:55] that's, that's not the way life works." Right? So instead now, it feels to me like magic is more about, for me, figuring out how to sort of surf that chaos, you know, how to stay on the board, instead of getting taken under by the waves and drowning [00:10:10] in the process and, realizing as the wave travels, as it goes, life looks different, magic looks different, the responses to magic looks different, and just learning to be way more fluid with that then, then I ever really thought I would be or could be, [00:10:25] or wanted to be, really, so. ANDREW: Yeah, I mean, I think that the, the magical cultivation of resilience and capacity to go with the flow. You know, it's [00:10:40] not, it's not sexy. Right? You know? [laughter] FABEKU: Not at all. Not at all. JEN: I think I make it pretty sexy. I have to differ! [laughter] ANDREW: I think we all make it pretty sexy. But I think if one was to publish a book that says, you know, The Magical [00:10:55] Guide to Resilience. I'm not sure it'd be a best-seller, you know? JEN: Are you challenging me? Are you challenging? That's a challenge! I'm writing this down. [laughter] AIDAN: Don't worry, I think we could have-- ANDREW: I'll write a chapter, it'll be lovely. JEN: Good! AIDAN: Exactly. Surviving the chaos . . . ANDREW: Yeah. AIDAN: . . . while generating chaos. Yeah. ANDREW: [00:11:19] But yeah, that's, I mean, that is a lot of what's been going on. Right? And a lot of what I've been doing, you know, I mean, I only recently returned to divining for myself. I was just like, "I don't know. What am I going to ask? Is it going to be okay? Is it going to be okay? Is it going to be okay? [00:11:34] It's like, well, you know, just work at it, work at making it okay, as opposed to like, you know, going to the cards all the time and you know that kind of stuff. And you know, and I think that a lot of the, [00:11:50] the stuff that makes getting through these challenging times possible, is about just showing up where you're at and being, "Okay, you know, this is, this is where my health capacity is. This is where my energetic capacity is. This is . . ." [00:12:05] You know, it's like, you just, you go there and then you work from that place and then, that's either the new limit for the time being, or a permanent limit or whatever, but you just kind of keep trucking with that, right? I mean, I think that's, [00:12:20] that's the deal. AIDAN: Absolutely, and I think it's super interesting because it's a . . . There was a guy who was one of the co-trainers at a strength-training seminar thing that I did years and years ago, who dropped [00:12:35] off the map. He had kind of a highly relevant website for me for a while in the . . . Around 2010, is when I was kind of really involved in his stuff. I don't remember him from the seminar, but I know he was there assisting. And he just popped [00:12:50] back up on my radar because he had, in the interim, become a Green Beret medic, and then got blown up and lost both of his legs. And the thing that was, is the most fascinating [00:13:05] about that, to me, is, it's like it really made me look at how much I kind of . . . Because the guy looks great. You know. He's like . . . His target is like, "I won't be able to ski this year, but next year I'm skiing." You know? And he's got that kind of [00:13:20] capability to ride that, go, "Okay, I did this thing that truly mattered to me, and this is part of what came from that, and so that's just what it is, and let's continue, you know?" And I think it's been very helpful for me, that he popped [00:13:35] up when he did because I was kind of being a whiny whiny person about some stuff. And it's like, oh, yeah. No. No, all of this is kind of because of how I chose to live my life and all of that. And I haven't had anything severe happen. It's all good. It's all, it's all stuff I can [00:13:50] functionally work with, you know? JEN: Yeah. I mean the length of my lease-less-ness or home-free-ness, I would say, is my own fault because I could have easily flipped around and said, "Oh, my apartment flooded, let me sign a lease," but my goal was actually to travel, [00:14:06] and then I just didn't stop. AIDAN: Right. JEN: And I haven't stopped and now I'm actually getting to the point where I'm realizing what my limits are, because I've finally met them, but I didn't, I hadn't met them until this point, you know? And so, and it's good like, now I know, but I just kept going, [00:14:21] you know, it wasn't enough. I had to go to Mongolia. I had to spend three months in Africa, you know? And now I finally get it and it's like, "Oh, I think I could probably be okay with signing a lease now, you know?" But for 400 days, it wasn't okay, you know, and I was choosing not to have that, so I wasn't [00:14:36] complaining about having a home. It was more like, I'm, I just, wasn't done with my trip. You know. [laughs] I was choosing to continue it as much as it needed to be, I guess. AIDAN: Yeah. Well, it's [00:14:51] interesting. I was, I've been thinking a lot about you, Andrew as you roll through with the Instagram feed and stuff and seeing your thing. And it is such an interesting . . . It's an interesting experience when kind of life makes the move, right? Because [00:15:06] we like to have that impression that we make the move, and in general, we just don't, right? [laughs] Or we pick the really safe minor ones, and then something really major that is seemingly random, you know, from our control [00:15:21] side. And it's been interesting to see because I can kind of cycle going like, "Okay, what are all the things he's got to figure out now?" ANDREW: Mm-hmm. AIDAN: Because I know you're not really . . . There are some folks that, that happens, and they go, "Okay, [00:15:37] 90 days, I'm back in business as I was before, bigger and better," right? That's kind of, we're not going to tip. We're not necessarily going to take any information out of what occurred. What do you find is kind of, what's the process [00:15:52] that you have going on with you about that? What are you thinking about? What do you find is brought up by this? ANDREW: So, I think that leading up to the fire, like always, I'm always sort of like, looking at: [00:16:08] Where am I? Where am I enjoying stuff? Where am I not enjoying stuff? Right? What are the challenges? And you know, I sort of had like an 18-month to two-year plan to shimmy stuff in different directions, right? And, you know, I had been finding myself [00:16:23] realizing that there were things that I wanted to do that having a retail store kind of acted more like an anchor to, you know? Going to a conference is a huge effort [00:16:38] when you have to make sure that the store is running in your absence. Right? Taking time off is more complicated when you don't have full, full-time staff and you have to kind of cover payroll and make sure everything's flowing around your work time. [00:16:54] And I've been having this sort of impulse towards making more art, making a new deck, you know, like a bunch of stuff like that, and, and I didn't have any time for them. And not because I'm [00:17:09] like, horrible at managing my time, but between, you know, having, having two kids half the time and running the store, it's not a lot of spare time left over, you know? And so, when [00:17:24] this happened, my first impulse was like, I mean, I certainly felt that like, "Hey, you should decide stuff now, you should get going," and my first impulse was like, "I'm not doing anything for like two or three weeks. I'm just not going to think of a decision. I'm just [00:17:39] going to deal with immediate stuff, insurance and what-have-you," right? And then, and then, I felt this like, push, be like, you know, you should, you should re-establish something, you should whatever and I was like, "No, you should make a list of things [00:17:54] that you would like," you know? And it . . . One of the things that it started with, so, in Toronto, I live, some people would say downtown, but kind of downtown-ish. Right? And when you go north to where the shop was, there's, for Toronto, [00:18:09] not for where Aidan lives, a big hill, right? AIDAN: [laughing] ANDREW: And it used to be that I cycled everywhere, right? But I'm a person who gets kind of sweaty, and [00:18:24] in the winter, it's dangerous, because we get snow and ice, right? To go up and down that hill. And I don't have a shower at the space, or anything like that. And I was thinking about where it would be nice to be and kind of one of the, like what I would like? I was like, you know, it'd be really nice, [00:18:39] really nice, if I could just cycle to work again all the time. Like if I could just not take transit very much, and just, you know, just cycle, and then as I was sort of kicking around looking at opportunities, you know, there's . . . [00:18:54] I was out strolling around with my partner, Sarah, and we saw this place in Chinatown. And I was like, "How great would it be, to like, you know, be, be just 15 minutes from my house?" As opposed to like the, [00:19:09] you know, somewhere between 40 minutes and an hour that it takes depending on transit. You know? I was like, "That'd be really nice," and it just sort of became this like question of like, what's possible? And what can I make happen? And so on? And then, [00:19:26] my other partner, Erin, sent me a link to this space that I ended up getting, which is literally a five-minute walk from my house. And it's just kind of, it's amazing. Right? And so now, they're these changes that happen where, [00:19:43] things that I wanted to do but wasn't doing because of time, things that I wanted to do, like, I've been thinking about running a men's circle for a couple years now, but it doesn't make any sense if I have [00:19:58] to commute an hour each way to get there to run it or go in that much earlier than my regular day. But now, I'm like, oh, that's a five-minute walk. I can just, I can do it on any day that I feel like, and just be like, oh, yeah. I'm going to walk down to the shop. [00:20:13] You know? I'm gonna be there in five minutes. I'll be there a few minutes early, we'll hang out, we'll do our thing, we'll go home or whatever. Like, it's easy, right? And you know, the, the prospect of, you know, I mean, having kids, it's easier now, but I live [00:20:28] in Toronto. I don't have a huge place. And having space to make art and really like make a mess and whatever, you know, it's complicated, right? And leaving out my paints and stuff. I mean, the kids are great about it now, but it's like, there's not a lot of room, you know. The place [00:20:43] where . . . I either was thinking about setting up some space and giving up the walk-in closet in my room, glamorous space, right? Or it's the kitchen table, which you can't leave it on indefinitely, right? But now I have this space where I'm just going to have a permanent [00:20:58] worktable and easel and wall space for doing big stuff and you know, these kinds of things. Because that was one of the other things. I was like, thinking about . . . People kept . . . People have been making references between the Orisha deck I made and Basquiat's art. And [00:21:13] I remember how much I loved how big a lot of his stuff was. And I'm like, I would love to be painting big, but I just have nowhere to do that. Well, you know, I've got 25 feet of wall space here. It's got enough and it's just, I can have it [00:21:28] on the floor. I can do whatever I want on it, you know. So, so it's this process of like looking for where the excitement is, looking at . . . You know, I sat down one night and made, [00:21:43] made this big list of, okay, kind of panicking about the future, is how do I, how do I make the kind of money I was making before? Which I need to support everything that I do in my life. How do I get to that? [00:21:58] You know? And my partner Sarah and I made this list of like, okay, well, what's everything that you can or have or would like to do for money, you know? It's just like going down a list of all these things. You know? One of the great realizations was, I was like, okay, what do I need [00:22:13] for these things? And the only one that requires a store was retail, right? AIDAN: Right. ANDREW: You know, that was the only one on the list that actually required it, you know. There's like, a whole, you know, field notes little pocket journal of like list of like 25 [00:22:28] things that I could do or have done or, you know, are currently doing, that I can just opt into instead, right? And it's just, so, it's not like I've been sort of, I don't know, [00:22:43] aimlessly leaning into abundance mentality and thinking that I'm going to just manifest everything without kind of thinking about it or working at it, but it's a lot more like I've been looking at possibilities, challenging assumptions, [00:22:59] looking, looking to keep an open-ended set of possibilities, you know? Like, even the place that I'm in now, you know, the advertisement said that you had to be willing to sign a year lease and I, when I came and I was, met the landlord and was getting shown around, I was like, [00:23:14] "So, what do you think about six months, because this is my situation" and they were like, "Yeah, that's cool. We can do that." You know, like, it's like, let's see what's possible, you know, and I think that when that happens then, you know, more becomes possible [00:23:29] and, you know, I've been thinking about stuff that I never even considered before, you know? One of the projects that I'm going to start undertaking is I'm going to hand paint a set of majors, [00:23:44] major tarot cards, and you know, and then depending on how that feels, maybe I'm going to offer to do that for people, you know? AIDAN: Right. ANDREW: Like, you know, it's like, my friend Sullivan, who from [00:23:59] Tarot Sheet Revival, who does the Budapest Tarot and other stuff. Hey Sullivan, if you're listening, this is, this, this is a question I'm going to email you about soon. I'm like, he mixed cards in the traditional way, right? And he comes to Toronto sometimes. And that, you know, so he hand laminates all the layers, [00:24:14] and folds the background onto the front, and does all this stuff, I'm like how, let's do a workshop on that because like I want to learn, I'm sure there's lots of people that want to learn, you know, and so stuff that, that was never even on the table, that migrates in different directions starts to feel [00:24:29] really possible. And then also noticing the, like, yeah, that's what I want to spend my time doing, you know, really, really takes it that way, you know, so. Anyway, that's my long-winded rambling answer to your question, Aidan. AIDAN: No, [00:24:44] that's awesome. And it syncs up with my kind of experience so well and it's interesting because I'm like, I don't have much resistance to change compared to most people, but I still do have that [00:24:59] thing? ANDREW: Sure. AIDAN: And then I have all the kind of layers of worry that come along with, if you're going to make a big change and it's going to directly impact your ability to pay the bills and, you know, feed your people and all that stuff, but . . . ANDREW: You've got kittens to take care of, right? AIDAN: [00:25:16] I've got kittens to take care of! Kittens need beef! [laughter] AIDAN: Beef is the answer to all kitten ills, truly. A little off [00:25:31] and not right. We switched them to half beef and they're giant now and totally healthy. So, beef is the answer. ANDREW: Perfect. FABEKU: I think the piece of it that makes sense, in my experience. What you're talking about is that [00:25:47] that kind of figuring out where the zing is, you know, figuring out the things that are exciting, figuring out like it sort of, once the chaos happens, it creates this weird kind of break in state where, rather than just continue to roll through the list of shit [00:26:02] that you do every day and assume that that's the program and that's the thing, you have a moment where you either get to or have to look at that stuff and say wait, is this really the stuff I want to do? Is this the stuff that matters? is the stuff I'm excited about? Is this the stuff that drives me? It's [00:26:17] this, you know, whatever it is. And you know, I mean it's certainly been, you know, kind of a big reassessing and reshuffling of some of that stuff for me, and you know, kind of redistributing the weight of attention and you know, what I'm, what I'm spending my time doing, and [00:26:32] you know, I think for me that kind of sinks up to that deeper idea of looking at that chaos and kind of relating to it as like sort of building materials. You know, it's like somebody takes it and throws it all up in the air and it's like, okay, now that it's everywhere, rather [00:26:47] than look at that as some tragedy, and not that there's not tragic components to it, obviously, but you know, rather than sort of drown in that, looking at okay, now that the deck has been reshuffled, how can I how can I reassemble this stuff? You know, what do I want to keep? [00:27:02] What do I want to toss out? And if this is what's left, then, you know, what is, what is the new, the new octave of stuff look like on the other side of this, this weird chaotic event, so. ANDREW: Yeah. I mean, one of the things I find myself saying [00:27:17] sometimes to people around the Tower card is, you know, when when the Tower gets struck or whatever that disruption is, you have a choice, right? You can either be like Bugs Bunny in the cartoon sticking fingers in holes in the dam and hoping [00:27:32] that it's not coming down, or you can get at the sledgehammer and help, and then once it's disassembled, then you call in the architect and the engineers and, you know, work together to figure out what's happening next, right? FABEKU: Yeah. ANDREW: So. Mm-hmm. So, and I also think [00:27:47] that you know, one of the things, you know, to be clear too, because I think that there's a lot of "rah, rah, I just overcome stuff," out there, right, you know? And, like, this process [00:28:02] and what I'm talking about now, you know, it's almost three months post fire, you know, and, like, you know, I was in shock for the first two to three weeks, like literally just still physically in shock, you know, and [00:28:18] there were, there were times, you know, like I . . . I'm usually a person who has a lot of control over their mind, you know, I mean, I spent years sitting and meditating and training myself in different magical and sort of yogic [00:28:33] driven ways. So, like, for me to not be able to wrangle my mind back under to, you know, some semblance of control is, you know, it doesn't really happen much. And it totally happened after this, you know, I was out [00:28:49] at a concert, and I was I was just watching my friend play, and then this thought just came to my brain, which is your house is on fire, your house is totally burning down right now, and people are trying to call you, and you're in the concert and you can't hear them. And [00:29:04] I couldn't restrain it. I . . . In the end, I pulled my phone out and looked at it. I'm like, nobody's called me. If someone . . . at that point, I was like, okay, now, nobody's called me. Somebody would have called me if my place was on fire. There are lots of people who would get direct ahold of me. It's fine. But [00:29:19] you know, it's, it's important to really notice that stuff and to deal with that too, right? FABEKU: Yeah. ANDREW: Because even, you know, even as somebody who has, you know, a lot of experience sort of wrangling back their mind from various things, [00:29:35] there comes a point where it's just not controllable and that's fine. You know, it's acceptable. It's real, you know, and to, to work with that, you know? And like, I also, you know, I have a person I do peer counseling with, [00:29:50] and other friends I get a lot of support with, and, you know, my friend that I do peer counseling with was like, I'm available as much as you want, and I saw them like, a couple times a week for the first stretch, just you know, and just one-sided more than an exchange, because it's just [00:30:05] like, I just need the support. I just got, I just need to talk this through, you know? And so, I think that leaning into the possibilities is absolutely crucial, and, you know, dealing with the trauma of it, whatever [00:30:20] level that's at, is the other side of that equation, right? Because without that, you know, I feel like I would just carry the sense of worry about stuff going forward . . . FABEKU: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: And it would make every exchange with things, you know, like, [00:30:35] you know, like when my landlord voided my lease, you know, that would be a re-triggering thing, when, you know, this happens, you know when you're sitting waiting for the insurance to tell you how much money they're going to give you, that'd be another thing, and you know, just keep stirring [00:30:50] it up and stirring it up. And instead, I'm like, you know, have done a lot of cleaning up of it and so, it's way way easier now. So, yeah. FABEKU: Well, you know, one of the things that happened for me after the [00:31:05] other big health event last year, which was about . . . It was mid-April last year, and after that for like six to nine months every time I would have even a tiny sensation anywhere in my body that didn't seem completely normal, [00:31:20] I would freak the fuck out. It was like, that's it. It's happening again. I'm about to drop dead. What's going on? At one point, I was talking my doctor and I said "Listen, this is a thing that happens." And she said, "Right, you get that like people get PTSD or some version of PTSD from events like that [00:31:35] that pop up." And I was like, "What?" And she was like, you know, "Come on, like, this is a thing that happens to people." And so, I get that, I think that there . . . And, and I appreciate that you brought that up, because I do think that it gets a little . . . The conversations [00:31:50] about it get a little one-sided. I mean the possibility is great and that's useful and important and helpful and there is this other shit that you know, it just kind of goes along for the ride with these weird kind of chaotic life events. And then figuring out how [00:32:05] to manage that and how like you said kind of clean it up, and for me it was a process, and it's still kind of a process sometimes, of, you know, like how do you peel, how do you peel those layers of that charge off of that thing to where, you know, when your, when your leg goes numb because you're sitting weird, you're [00:32:20] all of a sudden like, "I'm about to drop dead," and then you just lose your shit, you know, it's inaccurate and not helpful, you know? But I think that that's it and you know, one of the things that my doctor said to me, it was interesting, was she said, well, you know, over time, [00:32:35] just, that I get that you're not going to love this answer, but, she said, "Over time you'll get that you're actually not about to drop dead, you know, because these things have come and gone, and you know, they pass and you're still here and it's fine." And yeah, I didn't, I didn't really love [00:32:50] that answer too much. But, but that's it. I mean that is part of the, that sort of peeling off of the charge, and I think that's that's a huge part of the process. It's a huge part of the process, for sure. JEN: Yeah, it took me a long time to feel that [00:33:05] charge dissipate. When I was in downtown Seattle, it hurt and that's one reason why I kept leaving, was because it hurt too much to be near my old apartment. I felt like it had somehow spontaneously rejected me and said no, you can't live in downtown Seattle anymore [00:33:20] and it was physically painful and it took . . . It wasn't until I got back from Mongolia that it started to be, and that was about four months after the event? And then it slowly started when I would leave and come back and leave and come back, [00:33:35] each time I came back from a long trip, it would be less painful and less painful. And now I can walk around just fine, and I don't feel as much, but being there was painful, so I had to go and then return and . . . Just that, it was almost like I had to establish a new [00:33:50] story of my relationship to the city, because my only relationship had been with that apartment, and suddenly that was gone, and it was like, now, how do I live here? I don't know how to live here. It doesn't want me. You know, it felt like it was rejecting me. So, I had to re-establish that [00:34:05] relationship by rejecting it many many times before I could say, oh, okay. Yeah, I know, I think I can actually do this, you know. AIDAN: Yeah. It is really interesting . . . ANDREW: [34:15 something is missing] AIDAN: [chuckles] Yeah, it's super interesting, because I do think that we, and I think that we've been [00:34:20] over all pretty good in these conversations in kind of going back to the reality, because it's you know, it's like, Fabeku and I have kind of, you know, I was thinking about this the other day, our time lining on a bunch [00:34:35] of stuff has been really similar, even though what's gone on for us is very different. And for a lot of that, I was a wreck, you know, it's like I was totally able to do certain pieces of what needed to be done. And then there was a bunch of shit that [00:34:50] just kind of had to be jettisoned. And I do think that it's kind of what you were talking about, Jen, is like post injury and surgery and stuff like that. It's been really a weird feeling out process, getting comfortable [00:35:05] moving pretty actively, and doing what I do, because it is, it's like, so, I can pick this thing up. And I know that that will be good for my body overall if I get back to working out because I kind of need it, but is this going to cause me [00:35:20] to have to go back and get opened up again and fixed again, right? And you've slowly got to go, okay, we just take it easy and do what you can do in any moment, but I think yeah, it's a . . . The Instagram culture [00:35:35] is right. Nothing ever, nothing bad ever happens, if you have, if you have the ability to grind hard enough. [laughs] ANDREW: Well, that's just it, right? You know, for me, you know, back when I used to do martial arts, it was like, oh [00:35:50] you just sprained your ankle. Here. Here's some tape. Let's go, you know? Tape it up and keep moving. Right? You know? It was such a bizarre, otherworldly thing, right? And so, you know, I kind of got to the place where I would get injured, and my response to it [00:36:05] was, did I go into shock? Because if I didn't go into shock, I don't need to go to the hospital. I'm probably okay. Which is which is really not ideal at all. Right? And so like, you know, as I've get, you know some injuries and stuff around climbing, you know, and going [00:36:20] back to climbing, it's always tempting just to push, and I'm still, you know, you could still be strong and weak at the same time, right? With injuries, you know? And so, I was like, how do I control this? How do I like, derail my impulse just to like [00:36:36] get excited? And it's not even about being macho in that sense. It's just like, oh my God, this is so fun, and this is so exciting. I really want to like, hang off this upside-down thing and try and do this move now, right? And it's like, oh no, that's not good. And so [00:36:51] I was like, okay, what I'm going to do is this: I'm gonna go to the gym and I'm a climb every single climb of one level in an evening, and when I can do that, then I'll go up one notch, you know? And you know, it's like, but it's this constant [00:37:06] thing, and you know, just be like seeing stuff and looking at it, being like, oh my god, I'd be so excited to do that. But then it's like, well but can my body, actually, in a deep way, sustain that, right? You know? AIDAN: Right. ANDREW: It's, yeah, requires patience and attention, you know. [00:37:22] So. AIDAN: Yep. ANDREW: Well, and the other thing that's, you know, interesting for me is, I mean, all my Orishas are at my house. So, they're fine. [00:37:38] But almost all of my functional magical gear and altars and statuary and all of those things all burned, right? They're all gone. You know. I saved one meteorite that I had, that I found, I'm like [00:37:53] if it can go through the atmosphere, it can go through this. That's not a big deal. I'm gonna see if I can, if I can clean, and I mean like not spiritually, but just practically, clean my, [00:38:08] moldavite pendulum. I'm not sure, you know, it was exposed to a lot of smoke stuff. And, and that's it. You know, all my, all my cards are gone, you know? All the decks that I've had over the years are gone. [00:38:23] You know, and I mean, for me it's fine. I can replace many, if not all of them, and I don't really need a ton anyway, but yeah, it's this question of like, okay, what do I need? You know. And I just remember it was a time in the process where [00:38:38] it was kind of getting down to, they're like, okay, so the engineers have been in, it's safe, you need to go in and decide what you're taking, and then everything else will get disposed of," right? Because you know, although a lot of people were like, oh you can clean stuff [00:38:53] and whatever, it's like, you know, my couch burned, so like all that Styrofoam smoke is in the space, you know, like so much toxic stuff, right? And it's like yeah, maybe you can clean that off, but I'm not really sure. And I don't know, [00:39:08] it's got toxic stuff on it, and I don't want to keep a lot of stuff, you know, and that smell is really hard to get rid of, even off of hard stuff, right? And so, I just kind of went in and I went where all the, all the shrine stuff was, [00:39:23] and just brought flowers, and I'm like, all right. So, this is a juncture, my friends. If you want to continue with me, let's continue, carry forward, and if this is a time at which you want to, you know, go on to do something else and then then let's called it at that, [00:39:38] you know, and just spending some time there. And you know, it's sort of, there's been a bunch of conversations where people, you know, expressed sort of that the loss of these items was the loss of that connection to spirit and, you [00:39:53] know, for me it hasn't really been, you know, and I don't think that it ever needs to be, but I think it's easy to identify in those kinds of ways, and you know, I'm like, I wonder how that is for you, Jen, too, like, did you lose magical things that you've [00:40:08] had to reorganize yourself around? JEN: I did not. I had a very lucky experience in that the part of my house that flooded destroyed property I was already getting rid of but that was quite valuable [00:40:23] and so it turned into a car. So, my apartment left, my things were fine. But . . . And the flood happened in a part of the apartment that made it unlivable. It was the entryway, the bathroom, and the front hallway. [00:40:38] And there was nothing in the bathroom of worth, and then the front hallway, there were stacks and stacks of astrology books that I was going to sell but they were all destroyed so I couldn't sell them. And then, the insurance replacement cost was enough for a down payment on the car. So, [00:40:53] I ended up converting them that way and yeah, anything else, it was, you know, not really things that I missed. You know, certain things I had to get rid. I had to get rid of because they got wet and just was, you know, [00:41:08] we didn't know what was in the water, basically, but overall, the most important things did get saved and so I was lucky in that way. But I put it all in storage. So, I haven't really had access to it up until just before this trip, [00:41:23] but then I left for 90 days. So, it still is like not in my possession. But so, yeah, our stories differ somewhat in that respect and I feel really lucky that I didn't lose everything in that way. Yeah, [00:41:38] I had a feeling that the protection magic that I had set up in my house was quite strong and it could have easily been that the water had gone in the other direction, which would have been catastrophic, but it didn't go that way. So. And also in terms of timing, is, Aidan, you were speaking that you and [00:41:53] Fabeku had the line up, Fabeku's health incident happened the exact same weekend that my flood happened. So, we were commiserating about that at the same time. AIDAN: Right. JEN: "Holy shit. What is going on right now?" AIDAN: Yep. JEN: Yeah. AIDAN: Yep. [00:42:09] Yeah, it is. It's a peculiar thing I had . . . This is kind of a switch of topics. But one of the things that was really kind of fascinating, this [00:42:24] last week, is I went and visited my brother in San Francisco. And his place is super cool. They're like, they do an amazing amount of really cool work. [00:42:39] Some of that is art and a lot of it is food and fermenting, and you know, they've got the bees and all of that stuff. But one of the things that I found really interesting is that there was a big fire on their block that took out [00:42:54] the building next to them, basically, even though it was a gas line fire in the streets, just because of the way that the pipe was pierced. It like shot this jet of fire at that building and messed that up. And then, [00:43:09] to get that building put out, the fire department ended up destroying a number of apartments basically, just with water damage, you know, that were attached to that. And then across the street, but moving away from their apartment, got taken [00:43:24] out by smoke and heat, because of the way the wind was blowing, you know. So, it was really, I'm sure they had a mass-, way more awareness that I did. It was very odd being in this house that was like, you know, a couple of feet [00:43:39] away from not existing with so much stuff in it. That was, that they've put so much work into. And it's, yeah, it's pretty interesting, because we've moved so much, we've become kind of so [00:43:55] minimalist, in some ways, though not in the way that usually gets used, that there's not much here if that happened. And that's where I kind of went. Like, I don't have much left, you know. It would be easier if I could grab [00:44:10] my computer. I would be happier if I could also grab a couple of guitars, but other than that, other than that, it's just the animals but there's really not, there's not much left in here that I am attached. And so that's an odd . . . It was just kind [00:44:25] of an odd thing. Like, yeah, if this place burned down, I could walk away. I could just walk away, and it would be no . . . It wouldn't be fun and there would be shit after the fact, I'm sure. But in general, I don't have enough for it to get taken out. That's [00:44:41] a weird thing, though. JEN: Yeah, I think it all goes down to also like an illusion of stability, you know, we can set up shop somewhere and unpack and feel the continuity of a certain [00:44:56] period of time and then if it gets cut short, out of our control, and it's not our choice to move, or our choice to end the lease, it feels totally destabilizing, and yet we were actually unstable the whole time, really. You know, it's, it was sort of a, [00:45:12] I don't know. I've been thinking about that a lot. Like what is continuity? what is rupture? You know, how . . . What is security, even? And you know, through these types of challenges, can we still feel a type of security, even though we know at any moment it could change, you know? [00:45:28] FABEKU: Well, you know, for me what's been interesting with that, kind of going back to that kind of post-event sort of panic trauma stuff that would kick up. I -- and I'm not pretending it's all the way resolved. But I think the way that I finally figured out how to manage [00:45:43] it on a day-to-day basis was, like I started to figure out like how do I, what do I do? Like, how do I amp this anxiety down? So, it's not a constant thing, and I was I was failing at that, because I was trying to grab hold of something [00:45:58] that would say: Oh, you're fine. It's stable. Nothing to worry about, nothing will happen again. It's not a big deal. And that was bullshit and I know it's bullshit because you know, that's, Jesus, I mean, I'm 44, shit happens. But, and so that's ultimately how I started [00:46:13] to amp it down. It's like, well, the way you amp it down is you realize everybody dies, and everybody dies at some point, for some reason, however that happens, and you really have zero control over it. So, this constant anxiety and this, this grasping [00:46:28] for some kind of control mechanism that absolutely doesn't exist. It's a . . . it's an unwise investment at the end of the day. It's unwise, and it's ineffective and so it really was that kind of almost cliché thing of like making as much peace as you can with your [00:46:43] death, right? It happens, people die. And the only thing that I can reliably trust is that I'm in the current. I have no idea what the current's going to do. I don't know where it's going to go. But I'm in the current and that's all I know and that's it. And again, [00:46:58] I don't love that. You know, I mean, if somebody gave me the option of, you know, here's a, here's a foolproof control mechanism, I would probably take hold of it and say "give me door number one," but that's not a thing. It's not a thing. And the interesting thing . . . And I fought that [00:47:13] as a resolution because there was, there was a part of me that that kind of increased the panic for a minute, like well, that's a shitty answer to the question. But then when I realized that's literally the only answer to the question. That is it. There is, it might be shitty, but [00:47:28] there is no other answer. Then there is, then there was a whole lot of levels that started to settle in, and, and it's just stay in the current, that's it. And then that also then circles back to what we were saying about, you know, figuring out what you're [00:47:43] actually excited about, and prioritizing the shit you spend time on, and the people you spend time with, and, you know, all of it. It's, so that's, that for me is the thing, and I don't, and I want to be clear, like I'm not, I'm not coming at that from some enlightened state. Like, it's not like, [00:47:58] "Oh, I realized my own mortality and I'm at peace." I'm not at peace with any of it, but it is what it is. And so that, the constant trauma response has amped down considerably, once I realized that, just stay in the fucking current. That's it. That's [00:48:13] the only option you have, really, so. ANDREW: Well, and I think that, you know, too like, you know, we all do some form of looking towards the future in divination and astrology and whatever, right? And you know, people ask me like, oh is that, you know, did [00:48:28] you see it coming? Did you whatever? And I was like no. No, I mean I didn't see it coming, right? And you know, there's, there's, in the Lukumí divination that I do, there's, when, [00:48:43] when you're in a sign of loss, say or like, you know, whatever, right? And I was in a sign, in a negative sign, when the fire happened, unsurprisingly, but there's a modifier that goes with it, which is Otonawa, right? And it means, [00:49:00] kind of loosely translated as that which you brought with you from heaven, right? And it tells you that it's, it was immutable, right? That whatever, whatever this is going on, the actual core of it you can't change. Maybe you can mitigate [00:49:15] it. Maybe you can bob and weave with it. Possibly, hopefully, you can accelerate your, you know, ramping up back out of it, but it means it's coming, right? And you're not going to be able to change that and make that happen--make [00:49:30] that not happen. And, you know, understanding and thinking about life in those ways, where it's like I'm literally in a time where this is . . . So many things are beyond my control. And that that energy continued for a good stretch, right? Because, [00:49:45] you know, the insurance company is going to do what the insurance company's going to do. I have some say in that, but not a lot, you know. The landlord is going to do what they're going to do. The other people are going to do what they're going to do. And you know, you have to, you know, you have to [00:50:00] make some kind of peace with the fact that all you can do is are those things that are in your control and keeps, as you say, staying in that flow and moving forward, you know? So. FABEKU: Well, one of the two things for me was-- JEN: When I-- FABEKU: I did a consult [00:50:15] with Jen last year and, we're kind of looking ahead at the year, and she said, "Well, you know, like I kind of hate to tell you but like in October there's a thing that looks a whole lot like the thing the past April where the big health--" and I was like, [00:50:30] "Fuck me, are you serious?" Like what the fuck! And then it was this whole conversation around so what can we do about it? Right? So, like you're saying, fundamentally the energy is there. That's the frequency. And then I think as magicians the question [00:50:45] becomes, how do I, how do I handle that frequency? It's not like I can just hit the delete button and it's gone. So instead, you know for me it was this whole Saturn thing that was happening. So, I did this nine week long thing with Saturn and all kinds of shit. [00:51:00] And so something that could have been a life-threatening thing: I still got sick, weird shit still happened, and I saw the potential in it for things to get super serious, but it didn't. It wasn't serious. And I moved on the other side of it, because I think again, [00:51:15] there was this looking to the future, and okay, how do we and-- Listen, I wanted to completely eliminate the energy, but I got that's not how it's going to work. So instead, how do I shape this shit so that it's as least problematic as possible. You [00:51:30] know? And again, I didn't love any of that. But, but for me, that was, that was, that was the way to stay in the current at the time, and continue to maintain a relationship to the current as a magician, when it would have been super easy for [00:51:45] me to just lose my fucking mind about the fact that oh, this period of time looks a whole lot like that period of time that was super horrible. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. JEN: Yeah. So, did you, Andrew, [00:52:00] do the Lukumí reading right after the fire, to get that message? ANDREW: I was already in a reading. JEN: Oh, okay. ANDREW: They govern at least 28 days. So yeah, I was already within that structure. So, yeah. JEN: So [00:52:15] when my flood happened, the city condemned the apartment as unlivable, and I had five days to move, and they would help fund relocating. So basically, just pay you a bunch of money to leave. But you have to leave within that period of time. And I called my neighbor and I said, "I [00:52:30] have to go, because there's a lot of money on the line, and I'm ready and willing. I mean, you guys know me, you say 'jump,' I'm just gone," you know. So, I was already packing and everything and I said, "I just need a mover, tell me who I should get." So, she said, "Call TGA Movers," so I called his number, and this guy named Harvey [00:52:45] comes on, and he comes by on Saturday, and I have to leave by that Tuesday. He appraises everything, and says, "I'll come by tomorrow with my truck and a guy named Eddie." I was like, "Okay, cool." So, on Sunday, he rocks up in this truck. It's this white van. And on the outside of [00:53:00] the van, there's this massive black elephant. And on it, it says, "The Great Ancestors Moving and Maintenance." ANDREW: Mm-hmm. [laughter] JEN: So, I'm like, you mean the great ancestors are moving me out of this [00:53:15] flooded apartment? [laughter] JEN: Like it suddenly went from being this like very traumatic, like holy crap, my life is just completely changed in one weekend, and I had to come back from, you know, speaking in a planetarium about astrology early, from, I was in Alaska when the flood happened, so [00:53:30] I had to fly home early, and this was so chaotic and everything, and then suddenly like within that week the ancestors are moving me? And I was just like, "How can this be a bad thing?" You know, and it suddenly from that point on was like, oh, okay, like this is actually something good, you know, and it feels bad [00:53:45] now and it's definitely traumatic, but you just can't ignore a sign like that. I mean, what are the chances? I didn't even look what TGA stood for, you know, and then there it was, like the great ancestors, you know. So. ANDREW: That's amazing. FABEKU: I think that kind [00:54:00] of going back to that thing I said earlier about originally wanting to kind of control or eliminate the chaos. Now a lot of my magic is focused on sort of asking that the chaos works out in my favor. You know? That it, and again not in some weird Pollyanna [00:54:15] like, oh everything works out the way it should, because I think that's a fucked-up idea. But it, to me, that's the way I shifted, like, as much as I would love to eliminate that kind of chaos all together, realizing that's not going to happen. So instead if we can kind of slant it [00:54:30] so ultimately, as shitty as it might be, as uncomfortable as it might be, as horrifying as it might be, somehow it sort of shakes out in my favor at the end, as opposed to . . . So again, to me that's the sort of asking the current to carry me forward versus, you know, kind of pulling you under [00:54:45] and the undertow at some point. So. ANDREW: Yeah, for sure. I mean, I did a lot of praying to have the intelligence and awareness to benefit from situations [00:55:00] and to find my way through them, right? You know, they're like, I'm like, there's definitely some like, "Hey everybody, grease the wheels for me, please," but then there's also like "and help me see, help me be aware, help me like, notice these things instead of just gloss [00:55:15] over them," you know, so that I can actually, you know, benefit from those opportunities and so on. So. FABEKU: Yeah, for sure. AIDAN: I think that's a really, that's a really brilliant thing. And it's something that is actually kind of came up in a way this morning in the Six Ways group. [00:55:31] Is there's this, to me now, there's this difference of how I work. Like there's, there's the stuff like, the sigils on the wall are saying, "I want this, like this," right? But the vast majority of the work is more in line with what you were just describing. [00:55:46] It's like, there's all the stuff that is always going on and always changing, and this is the general direction I'm trying to go, and what's really important is that I keep going into something that is pretty similar to that, but [00:56:01] I don't care, in truth, most of the sigils are the best idea I have of what would get me there, right? But kind of the offering side or the prayer side, if that was how I thought of that, [00:56:16] is way more geared towards "yeah, let's, let this, let's let all these crazy things that occur, occur in a way that I could use more so than not, and yeah, let me have the brains [00:56:31] to not fight it and be able to get on that right track or get into that right current. Let me know when I actually need the paddle board rather than the straight up surfboard because otherwise it could be a very slow ride," you [00:56:46] know. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. Well, you know, that kind of, kind of segues into one of the questions that we got on Facebook. I think it was Dre was asking what skills, what [00:57:01] skills do you not have, you know, that you would like to have, and how might that relate to your magic as well? Like not necessarily just magical skills, but kind of skills in general, you know? Is there stuff you're thinking about learning, [00:57:16] building up, adding to your to your vocabulary, or the things that anybody needs to kind of, or sees it as a benefit for moving forward? AIDAN: Man, that's such an interesting [00:57:31] one, because I'm always working that stuff. ANDREW: It's clean and press, isn't it? Or . . . AIDAN: Yeah. ANDREW: More clean than press. AIDAN: Yeah, totally. Yeah for me it's, it's like, [00:57:46] I'm trying to not live so entirely in my own head. Like I'm aware of it, but I still get trapped by it, and how that usually happens is that someone else will say something that seems [00:58:01] crystal clear, but that I have actually totally misread, [laughs] and that's my biggest thing, and that's really interpersonal more than specifically magical, but that's I would say my biggest kind of . . . That's the [00:58:16] biggest hole that I'm aware of that I'm really working on is, especially if I think it's totally crystal clear, asking for . . . to verify, you know, because I find that I'm usually wrong. FABEKU: [00:58:33] I think for me, I was just having a conversation. A couple weeks ago, my oldest friend in the world was in town and we were, we've known each other since we were three or four. And we were talking kind of late at night. And, and I said, "You know, I feel like the next level for me [00:58:48] personally and probably beyond that is," and one of the things you said, when we very first started, Andrew. This thing of, after these things happen, like you're not the same anymore, and I think that what I've realized for me [00:59:03] is an in response to the last handful of years and some, just events and shit that have happened, there's . . . When I was in some, doing some trance work, one of the others spoke about it as, spoke about it as like this, this accretion of grief, which I thought was kind [00:59:18] of a fascinating language and it made it clear for me in a way that it was a little--it wasn't before--in this, the way that these, almost like the way a pearl forms, you know, like these layers of grief kind of buildup. And sometimes it settles, sometimes it's not, [00:59:33] but then over time, all of a sudden, there's this thing that just sits there and you're like, fuck, what is this thing? And then, you know, you realize what it is. And so, I've been kind of looking at that and the way that that's affected me and you know, how to deal with that magically, how to deal with it in other ways, just how to deal [00:59:48] with it personally, and kind of moving through that, and, and again, not in the sense of being who you were before, because I don't think that's the way things work. But, but how to peel off some of those layers, that, that begin for me to feel really problematic [01:00:03] at a certain point. And I don't, I'm making some progress, but I, I for sure know that I don't have the . . . I don't have the skills yet and I don't even necessarily have the full sense of the right angle of approach. [01:00:18] You know, it's more, it feels, and I've had a few of these dreams, where it's like being inside of an egg and kind of pecking at the wall to figure out, okay, where's the where's the thinnest place to make this kind of initial puncture? Kind of a thing. [01:00:34] And I don't know if that makes sense as I'm saying it. I don't know how lucid that sounds, but yeah, I think for me that's, that's the focus. You know, how do you, how do you work through and sort of peel off some of those layers that have built up over time? ANDREW: Yeah. I mean, [01:00:49] I think that it fits with stuff that I've talked about on the podcast somewhere, but I no longer remember where, about my work with meteorites and my idea of sort of like leaving, leaving the, the Earth or leaving for a different orbit and a bigger, [01:01:04] sort of more universal picture, right? You know. FABEKU: Yeah. ANDREW: I wouldn't have sort of said originally that that was tied to grief, but it definitely was tied to a process of shedding a lot of things that . . . FABEKU: Yeah. ANDREW: . . . Have their roots back in some of those kinds of things. [01:01:19] FABEKU: Yeah. ANDREW: And either were, you know, either became dead and unhelpful or were just problematic to start with, you know, so. FABEKU: Well, and it's interesting you mention it because I'm sitting next to this heart-shaped meteorite that I've been hanging out with for weeks and weeks and weeks and I, I [01:01:34] get, I get, yeah, I get what you mean on a real visceral level with that. AIDAN: Yeah, that's pretty interesting. That's, that's, as you know, Fabeku, cause we've talked about it some, that that's a lot of what I've been doing for the last chunk of time, both on [01:01:49] grief and then kind of on the PTSD from just being fucked with in various ways at different points, you know? ANDREW: Yeah. AIDAN: And running a couple of people now through the process that I was given by the allies to see if it works for anybody else. [laughs] Cause [01:02:04] that's not always the case, but so far it seems to be doing its thing. Yeah. I think that's a very real thing. FABEKU: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: How 'bout you, Jen, anything, anything that you're working on, hoping [01:02:19] for? JEN: I don't have anything specific in mind at the moment. I think what I need to work on is not traveling. [laughter] JEN: And actually understanding [01:02:34] what it means to be in place and develop a kind of soft momentum as opposed to the fire hose that I'm used to. So, if anything, it would be learning how to throttle down and understand [01:02:49] sort of compa-, not capacity, but like amount, you know? Like not turning everything all the way up to 11 all the time, but figuring out more subtle modes, and also, you know learning [01:03:04] how to gather moss a little bit, because I feel like at this point, I'm like a polished little bullet, you know? And that can be fun to a point b
The Hermit's Lamp Podcast - A place for witches, hermits, mystics, healers, and seekers
Lonnie and Andrew explore the how reconstruction and revisioning of heathen traditions plays out in Lonnie's life and the world. Going from both the inspiration in Lonnie's life to the racism and problems that also exist in some adherents. The also talk about chaos magic and finding your own path. Think about how much you've enjoyed the podcast and how many episodes you listened to, and consider if it is time to support the Patreon You can do so here. If you want more of this in your life you can subscribe by RSS , iTunes, Stitcher, or email. Lonnie can be found on facebook here, and Weird Web radio is here. Elhaz Ablaze can be found here. Andrew can be found here. Thanks for joining the conversation. Please share the podcast to help us grow and change the world. Andrew You can book time with Andrew through his site here. Transcript Andrew: Welcome to another installment of the Hermit's Lamp Podcast. I am hanging out today with Lonnie Scott. And I know Lonnie from the internet, from tarot community, from all sorts of different places. And not that long ago, for me, even being a guest on his show, Weird Web Radio. But for folks who don't know who you are, Lonnie, what are you up to you? What are you doing spiritually these days? Lonnie: Oh, boy. What am I not doing spiritually these days? For most people who may not know that personal side of me, I'm a heathen, I generally practice within reconstructed, reidealized paganism practices inspired by Northern Europe and ancient Northern European practices. But more of if you want to call it, what we call the down and dirty title, chaos heathen. Chaos heathenry is something that was started by the guys at the Elhaz Ablaze website and blog many years ago. I found my way to them just trying to navigate to something within heathenry that wasn't just religious. I don't feel like I have this strict sort of religious practice. I'm more interested in magic and sorcery and how those things work, but within frameworks that resonate to me. And heathenry's always spoken to me that way. Essentially, we are chaos magicians who found a spiritual home in heathenry. Jason Miller coined something not too long ago called chaonimism. When I read that, I thought, this is the term that applies really well to the way we think, especially myself, within that chaos heathen sort of framework. We're seeking the real results of practice and trying to find what it is that works and the sort of tech that we can plug into and apply to our lives. At the same time, recognizing that spirit is real and it doesn't require my permission or my belief to exist. It's really there if that makes sense. Andrew: Does for sure. I'm just pulled up the thing from Jason, chaonimism now. Approach that combines the wild freedom focused on results and non-hierarchical view of reality inherent in chaos magic with a belief in spirits as organized consciousness not dependent on belief. Yeah, you know, I mean, I think that, I think that's such an interesting distinction, this question of, I actually have no question about it but I think that the dialogue about it has been interesting and it's always interesting when people come to it, which is, are spirits real? Where do they exist? How do they exist? And for me, I've pretty much always approached them as discrete entities with no reliance on me. They have a life of some sort extraneous to me entirely and we just bump into each other if I'm lucky at the appointed times, you know, when I make the appropriate phone call, you know. In a sense, we are that spiritual being, we're embodied as spirits, if you buy into that framework. So, you're a spirit too just as long with all these other spirits that are surrounding us. We're not better or worse than any of those that exist, we're just existing on sort of a different framework or different vibrations, I guess, if you want to take it that way. So, why is the nonreligious side of that important to you or what does that mean in terms of your practice in your life? Lonnie: Yeah. My practice isn't centered around devotions, I guess is the really, the only distinction I can come up with that makes any sort of sense. I'm not setting up permanent altar, temple structure type relationships to any deities or trying to come up with specific philosophies or dictate practice or anything around particular god size spirits, if you will. In that light, I'm not the religious, but I do on the same token have these relationships with different gods and goddesses within the heathen framework and without. Go ahead. Andrew: Heathen is always a word that people, I see around, and I feel like I sometimes struggle to articulate what it means clearly though myself. What does heathenism mean to you or how would you define that word? Lonnie: Sure. Heathenry is just kind of a general umbrella kind of term. It's similar to pagan in that fashion, they can cover a lot of different styles and approaches and practices that fall under that category. Heathen is a more specific general term that, again, it covers things that are being reconstructed or inspired by ancient Northern European practices, going out through Germanic lands, Scandinavia, Iceland, Anglo Saxon sort of practices. And there are different specific religions fall under that umbrella depending on what area and region people are being inspired by. Andrew: So it's more of these, for you, about the geography where it comes from or the collection of spirits where it comes from? Lonnie: I guess by sheer accident, it's associated with the geography because that's where the ideas come from. But for me, it's more about the ideas. It's not about the land or the places that these original ideas sort of sprung up. My interest- Andrew: I was going to say, your accent doesn't sound Northern European to me. Lonnie: Right. My appeal to heathenry is more about the concepts that are inherent inside of it. Things like hospitality and reciprocity being important, the land spirits being an important part of honoring them, honoring your ancestors. And then going at a deeper more mystical level, talking about the norms at the center of all things. The tree and the well being central elements of the cosmology. The more I dig into it, the more I go about the list. It's less and less and less and less about gods and goddesses to me, and it's more about these concepts and how I relate to the world and my relationship with the people, the land, the spirits that I work with. Andrew: It's more of a philosophy and a theology and a worldview in that sense? Lonnie: Yeah, I think that's more accurate. It's more of a mindset and a worldview than it is a religion at least in my practice. Andrew: Sure. So, how did you find your way to the Norse or Northern European deities and world view then? Lonnie: Oh, by accident, like all things. You had your accident, I had mine. When I was a teenager, I started exploring into different parts of paganism and the occult. I tell people I wasn't raised to be anything. My parents weren't religious, they weren't forcing me to attend any churches on Sundays. My sister and I weren't baptized. We were just left to be whatever it is we were going to be. But sometime around the age of 12 or 13, I got interested in all things spiritual and I started checking out books in the library, asking questions to people who were around. By the time I'm 15 or 16, I've probably read most of what Scott Cunningham stuff was on the book shelves, started digging into Crowley's different material he provided. There really wasn't much available when I was a teenager in the 90s, early 90s. But then I meet some friends and all in one swoop, it's funny, one friend on one hand says, I think I found the perfect book for you and he hands me, Liber Null & Psychonaut. He says, I've read through this, I think it's crazy, I can't even wrap my head around it but I think it's definitely for you. And he was right. It was definitely for me, is exactly what I was looking for. All in the same time, another friend, within a day or two of this incident is really getting interested in runes. And he's got Futhark by Edred Thorsson. He's got some of Kveldulf Gundarsson's early stuff, Teutonic religion, Teutonic magic. And he's got this big goal in mind, he wants to end up on the high read of The Troth. And he starts studying this stuff. I'm just borrowing books from him. So I sort of find my way to modern esoteric rune practices through Futhark, and then I've got Liber Null & Psychonaut in my other hand. These two books sort of form the foundational practice of what propelled me forward into heathenry and the occult both. Andrew: It's fascinating. Yeah. I went through a period of time where I was very interested in runes. I was in art school, so like, back in the early 90-ish, you know, I was very interested in them and so on, and was doing a lot of, using them for a lot of magic. I even made some brands and did some branding work on myself as part of creating permanent protection work and stuff like that. So, it was very, back in my body modification piercing interested days and stuff like that. So yeah, very much I get that, that kind of chaotic like, not chaotic in the sense of like on structure, but like that open-ended like, what can I do with this stuff? Where can I put it to work? How can I work this in a way that makes sense to my whole self? Lonnie: Well, sure, that's right. I'm looking at the back over time at this, I've got, in Liber Null, you've got the instruction manual for creating sigils, starting to work sigil magic, and how to adopt different mindsets, to apply magic, to get results. On the other hand, I've got a book about runes and these really angular shapes, they look like they want to do something more than just write. Inherently, the aesthetic of them appeal. When you start creating bind runes, bringing different runic forces together, they're a much more magical looking thing to me than just creating a sigil, the way it's taught in chaos magic. I think they're working on the same principle. Andrew: For sure, yeah. I think it's kind of like, you can have a bunch of wood and some nails and some hammer and you can make anything you want. Have some Lego that locks together in a really easy structure, right? Both ways you make a thing, you know, and I think that the bind runes and the runes themselves have that sort of ease of interconnection that really does lend itself to that kind of process, right? Lonnie: Right. Yeah. And this goes back to like, you were talking about how did I get into heathenry, how do I explore it further into heathenry. The more you study the runes, in a modern esoteric framework, you're essentially looking at what do these runes mean, and most of that modern framework is based on The Elder Futhark. We know what they mean because of the diligent work of academics who have reconstructed proto-Germanic so we can have an idea of what these runes all say on rune stones that dot the landscape. But for you, if you're a practicing heathen or you're trying to use runes for magic or divination, what does Fehu actually mean for you on a magical or divinatory purpose. It can mean fee, cattle, money. And you can leave it at that. But if you really want to dig deeper into runes, you can't help but sort of fall into these deeper heathen ideas because you ask yourself, well, what did cattle mean to the people who came up with this symbol? What was the concept of money and this idea of fees? And then you find your way to the rune poems and you start finding your way to the Eddas and the stories that hold the mythic tale of the people who came up with this whole symbol set to begin with. It enriches what you can do with the runes on one hand, but like I said, you just kind of fall into these ideologies and worldviews if you're willing to actually look deeper into what these things are. Andrew: So, I'm certainly not going to ask you to stand for everybody who uses these things. But, I've also seen a lot of stuff kind of creeping in around some kind of more extreme people who are using runes and Norse stuff for racist ideas and stuff like that. I don't even know what the question I have for you around that is. I guess I'll go, what do you think about that? Do you think that that's in any way inherent in the structure? What do we do about this, you know, where people are, you know, from my point of view as someone outside of those kinds of traditions, co-opting something? Yeah. Lonnie: Let's dig in. I'm on the high read of The Troth. It's an international inclusive heathen organization and also the steward of Illinois for the same organization. We make inclusive a distinction because it's necessary. When modern heathenry was reborn in the minds of people in America, it'd gotten its rebirth in a way earlier in Iceland. But when it relaunched itself somehow in America, it came with a stain from the very beginning. This sort of romantic notion of the viking as this sort of road warrior today. This idea that this is somehow a tradition or a religion that should only be ethnically attached to European descendants. So, you'll start to see different factions split over time over how deeply they adhere to those ideas. So, on one hand, you've got people like me and The Troth, who are what we call inclusive, meaning that regardless of your sexuality, your gender, your ethnicity, your physical, mental abilities, your economic status even, none of these things are important for you to enter a heathen practice or get to know more about heathen worldviews or join The Troth or any of that. On the other hand, you have other organizations who say it's for, they call themselves folkish. And usually, that means that they want you to be descended from Northern European countries. And what they mean by that is they want you to be white. I don't know how else just to spin that other than they just want you to be white. Andrew: And folkish as in the word like folk, which means people. Like from the people as opposed to like folk practice? Lonnie: Yes. They're usually when they're saying folk, they're talking about of the people, these specific sorts of people, trying to set it up in a more tribal sort of, and have boundaries is their argument. When you see, like you're saying, you see these people who are using runes and other heathen ideas that are occupying some pretty far right not so good ideas, at least as far as I'm concerned, it's all not, let me stutter over my words, none of this comes from a culture in history that was closed off to welcoming the stranger or the other into their communities. We come back to those ideals of hospitality and being both a good guest and a good host in a climate where you had to have those sorts of ideas for people to survive. But even then, we have evidence and stories of people who are, where they freely adopt others into their tribes or their families. None of that comes up as an issue, they're not really part of this family, they're not really part of this tribe. Once you're adopted, you're in. It's a matter of what you can do, not what you look like, not even probably what you believe. It just comes down again to one of those classic heathen sort of phrases, you know, we are our deeds, you are what you do, and nothing else should really matter, the least of which the color of your skin, which is one of the most ridiculous notions that I think should be attached anything heathen. Andrew: Yeah. Is there an effort or is there a consideration or does this even make sense as a question like within the group, like, because I've seen people, people I know, like avoid posting and being involved in runic stuff because of its association with some of these far right people. And they're like, I just don't even, I don't even want to be associated with it. I might have a personal practice but I don't even bring that out because I don't even want people to misunderstand where I'm at or what I'm about with this. In your organization or from your point of view, is there something to be done to sort of delineate these things, to sort of, I don't know, re-reclaim, you know, organize away from these sort of pieces? Lonnie: Yeah. Well, I mean, first, the reclaiming, right? The argument usually hinges on this is our culture not theirs. So, the people who would want to bar entry from anyone based on ethnicity are making the argument that there's this living culture that they're the descendants of and you, whether you're black, brown, Chinese or anything else, you have your own traditions to go out and find. That's the argument that they make. And that you should go out and find those. They're more about segregation in a way than they are sort of some supremacist idea. Heathenry is not a cultural inheritance. It's not a living tradition that came down through the generations. The ancient heathen cultures that inspire modern practices are dead and they're gone. There's 1000 years of Christianity and other forms of Abrahamic religions, more than likely, and little folk practices, of course, between us and the last heathen who was living pre-conversion times. There's nothing there to living inherent, or inherit. Andrew: It's like if you want to call up Zeus and do some work with Zeus or whatever, there's no living legacy of that practice continues to today. There's the disruption. Lonnie: Not only is there no like direct line through generations. There are hundreds of years of broken connection there. It's a revisioning, it's a reawakening, it's a rebuilding through different ideas and what's important. We have that ability to look at it in a sort of bigger picture and take what's the best of what we can know about their ideas and bring that forward without including any baggage or bullshit that's unnecessary. But even then, that ethnic closing of a door to people, I just don't think is something that they would have recognized or accepted as part of their own way. I'm sure they had their own barriers to entry to their families and their clans and their tribes, but I very highly doubt it had a thing to do with skin. With that said, you asked, are there ways to offer alternatives or combat this. The Troth is an organization that works very, very hard to do that. We do it by providing publications and resources to people who are interested in heathenry that are one, based on real and solid scholarship, two, effective modern practice, and three, inclusive, being honest about what we expect and who we are, that there's nothing that's going to bar you from being part of what it is that we do. And last year, I decided to use social media as a way to put up more of a face on inclusive heathenry. And it's funny you were talking about, you know, people who are reluctant to publicly say that they use runes or something or get involved in groups that are more akin to runes because of those associations with less desirable people or ideologies. I had a conversation with a guy who was basically confessing the same things to me, saying, look, I've got this deep, passionate relationship with Odin and Freya from the Norse Pantheon and the mysteries that surround them. And in my own trance work, the things that I'm discovering in my own relationship are amazing and I want to write them down, I want to share them with the world. But I'm gay and I'm black and I can't. I mean, he really felt like because he's gay and he's black, he can't share what he's discovering in his own journey, in his own path with these two specific divine forces. Hearing him say that broke my heart because here I'm having a conversation with a guy who is one of the most brilliant occult practitioners I've ever had the honor to talk to him my life. And he knows who he is and he knows he inspired this movement even. So I got to thinking about it, how do I work harder to make sure that that door's open to people like him, that he's not afraid to walk through that? The fact that he's scared or reluctant to or anyone else, for that matter, I think weakens and cheapens the growth and the movement of modern heathenry. The more great minds and the more practitioners that we have with these different backgrounds and different ideas that they bring to the table can only enrich our own practice. So, I started this thing. It's a hashtag, #knowourheathens, and #inclusiveheathenry attached to it. And you can search those on Facebook is mostly where it's been happening. And just asking people, to put a picture of yourself up on Facebook or anywhere else on social media, include these hashtags, and tell people that you're heathen and you'll accept anyone into heathenry regardless of gender, and race and ethnicity and sexual orientation and so on. And I've been very pleasantly surprised by how many people are willing to take that stand and just let people know that the door is not locked, it's not even closed. And here we are, we're going to stand here and hold it open for you. I already know that there's criticism of this idea even sort of from my own camp, saying, you know, I don't, you don't have any divine right to say who can and can't come to the gods, right? It's all about honoring the gods properly and so on. But I also think that I can't pretend that the world isn't what it is. I'm a straight white man who practices heathenry. I can walk into any heathen gathering in the world and if I don't open my mouth and share my thoughts or bring that friend who doesn't fit the straight white man mold, no one's going to question my presence there. All those heathen doors are open to me, no matter what extremist ideas those groups hold because I look the part. So I'll take that sort of privilege of looking the part and open the doors as wide as I can, to make sure that people who don't look the part the way these more extremist factions want can find their way to it as well. Andrew: That's great. I think that that falls to all of us, right? And the more privilege we have, the more it falls to us to make sure that we do what we can to take steps in those directions for sure. So, I think that's fantastic. I hope people continue in that direction, lots of people continue in that direction, and in whatever other ways makes sense to continue to open those doors, because it's always been my experience that, I'm sure there are spirits that care a lot about place or family lines or other things. But it's never been my experience that I've run into a spirit who's like, run into like traditional practitioners even in sort of living lineages who are like, oh, you're not from here or you're not from my group, therefore, you can't be involved. I've never run into that anywhere. And so I think these these other people who are fronting that, it's not coming from the spirit sides, it's coming from all the crappy, horrible things that that comes from. Lonnie: Yeah. Oh, I agree. It gets to the idea of ancestry as well. A core concept of heathenry is honoring and venerating your ancestors. That doesn't mean that you have to take a laser focused microscope on a specific region of the world within a specific set of decades and say, those are my ancestors. Sure, but have you ever looked at a family tree? Have you done the sheer math on how many people resulted in you that you had a whole lot more ancestry covering a lot more territory. And not just from that region. It backs up into previous ages and people move and they migrate. cultures blend and mix. And even religions are much more syncretic in ancient times than they are these dogmatic solid approaches. I mean, even today, Christianity, you've got a 2000 year unbroken lineage, something that all pagans would love to have, right? But there's, I can look out my window, there's a Catholic Church three blocks away that direction. There's a Baptist Church four blocks away in that direction. Neither of them agree on a lot of principles of their own religion but they use the same holy text. The idea that there's this unbroken sure way to do it is funny to me. And at the same time, that thing about ancestors. If that's your sole argument for being part of heathenry, as an example, just be honest and say you have this super hyper focused love of a specific place in time because it's a poor representation of ancestors as a whole. Andrew: Well, you know, so in my tradition, we have, our notion of ancestors a [inaudible 00:33:00]. It includes your bloodline, for sure. The people who actually genetically contributed to your presence on the earth. But it also includes your initiatory lines. And the word means both. I mean, I think that there are different ways to have familial bonds. You talked about hospitality and so on, and to be welcomed into that family, you know, because I think that that's one of the things when we find our group of spirits or our group of ancestors or whatever, in that broader sense, we become ideally a part of that connection both in terms of receiving the blessings and owing obligations and all of that. I think it's important. Lonnie: I think it's important. You know, you talked about family, bloodlines are important, sure, you know, you honor the ancestors of, I call it the ancestors of blood and bone, those people who literally genetically results in you. But again, you're talking about thousands of people throughout time, and various traditions and various cultures and different values all throughout the generations. And family's bigger than blood. I would wager most people listening to this are closer to some of their friends than they are some of their own siblings and would give more to them for that. Andrew: I'm sure almost everybody has that aunt or uncle who's not actually related but who's just so close to the family, right? Lonnie: Yeah. And then, you know, if you research your ancestry like I have, you're inevitably going to find someone who is adopted or something of that fashion, isn't actually someone of blood and bone coming down generation to generation to you. They were adopted into the family or they came into the family by some other means that still results in you somehow, but they're not actually blood related. In my practice, ancestors are an even bigger scope than that. You have ancestors of place and the people who are important to the history of where you actually live and do your work. Ancestors of tradition, like you were talking about, who have made your practices possible today in some way or form. It's so much more than what, than what some of those folkish type heathens would like to box it into. Andrew: So, is the idea of, because, maybe because I've watched too many movies or like HBO specials or whatever, but like, is the idea of like being a warrior relevant to heathenism? Or is that just again, a pocket that like a limited number of people have sort of emphasized? Lonnie: I think it's a pocket that a limited number of people have emphasized. It's easy to do that when you, the most of the surviving lore that we have comes from the sagas and the Eddas that were written down post-conversion near the viking period. There's an awful lot of conflict going on back in time that these written down or the time that the stories come from, of course. People are moving all over the world, tribal conflict is occurring. One local chieftain becomes bigger chieftain, scoops up everybody on the farms and they go raiding and he wants to be bigger king, and so on, and so on, and so on. This isn't something that's even restricted to just heathen areas, that's just how the world worked, and I can even argue still works that way, we just don't call it the same things. So no, I just, there are people who are, of course, who are inspired I guess to be soldiers or pursue a life in the military because of heathenry. It's certainly not frowned upon. It fits into some of the mold. You have gods and goddesses that are associated with war and victory. So why not have people who inspired by that, pursue that? But that is certainly not all that these gods, goddesses, the worldview is associated with. Again, I would point to ideas of the tree, the world tree that's connecting all the worlds and the mysteries that you can explore there in. The well that holds all that is and was and ever will be, and explore the mysteries therein. What are the norms, what do they really mean? How can I apply hospitality to my life? What does reciprocity mean? What is a right relationship with the world around me? And none of that has to do with, has to be anything at all about war or fighting? Andrew: Yeah, it's interesting how there're all these different ideas. It's like so many ideas around my tradition, people, especially people who hear about Santeria, and they just think of it as, like witchcraft that's going to help them get their lover back or whatever, when in fact, there's whole religious living tradition around everything to do with life as opposed to just sort of this one very particular sort of limited notion about it, right? Lonnie: There are. In a tradition, I guess in traditions such as heathenry where everything that we're building on even to get our inspiration for what we're going to do today comes from things that were written down by Christians well after conversion, inspired, of course, by their ancestors wanting to share those stories, the surviving oral traditions for whatever reason that make it into whatever we have left. But still, ultimately, were written down post-conversion by Christians. So, you have to sort of take an honest view of those things and explore everything. Archeology and what are the latest academics and scholars discovering on there. And of course, balance that out with your own personal practices and how you transform that into a living tradition. Just a random thought, yeah, talking about those sagas and Eddas and everything that was written down by this Christian hands, every American knows the story of Paul Revere, right? I'm guessing a lot of people do, the midnight night of Paul Revere, one of by land, two of by sea, during the Revolutionary War. That's how they were going to let them know the British are coming. And he's this revered folk hero from a couple hundred years ago, the early formation of the United States in the war against Britain for independence. But what people don't realize is, here's a story in a living culture that everything is written down. There's no oral block of hundreds of years which you've got to worry about what gets remembered properly and putting your own twist on it and everything, everything is written down. And growing up as a kid, everybody was told the story of Paul Revere. What people don't realize, though, is Paul Revere sort of falls into this cultural memory because his name rhymed best with the story, the poet who was telling his story came up with. There were many more writers that were out to notify all the villages, the town that British were coming. In fact, Paul Revere, according to the sources I've read was actually captured and was the worst one at his job at notifying everyone the British were coming. So, you take that as an example of again, that living culture, a folk hero even, legend, everything is written down generation to generation and even taught in schools when you're young. And the story is not true. Andrew: If his name had been Paul McGregor, he wouldn't have [inaudible 00:42:24] Lonnie: Yeah, Paul McGregor was probably better at it than he was. Andrew: He was done his work and own the pub enjoying a pint, you know. Lonnie: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. That is why I just don't take a hard line approach to any of this. Ultimately, because we can't always be sure about how much, one, how much we actually received that's accurate, and two, even on the things that are accurate and we can verify that are accurate, it's so little of it that you can't rebuild a real thing out of just that. You have to do comparative work with other mythology and other traditions and so on to put it all together. And my own practice is more focused on magic and sorcery. I want to do trance work and I want to do divination and I want to use magic to get results in my life or the things that I need in the world right now and I want to communicate with spirits. I'm telling you, right now, the instructions for all of that are pretty non existent in a heathen framework. Yeah. Andrew: So, where are you borrowing those instructions from? Is it from Peter Carol? Is it from, you know, where are you pulling those instructional pieces in to create that for yourself in this heathen framework? Lonnie: Excellent question. It starts with Peter Carol, Liber Null, of course, and working through all of that material. I approach that like a kid who is starving and I just discovered McDonald's for the first time. It was wonderful. And that led to Phil Hine in his early work, which was fun. It took a much less serious approach to chaos magic than Carol was taking, which was a nice balance with that. And then, you know, in that time, you'd get online and there's different Yahoo groups, like the X, that was one of my favorites. And then the Chaos Matrix is still online today, deposit of articles to help the budding chaos magician get their start. You just experiment and you explore. Like I said, you explore outside of other traditions and other things. I found my way to Tarot and becoming, falling in love with tarot and enriching myself spiritual practice with that helps inform everything that I do. It has this rippling effect across all of it. And I get better at divination in general and my intuition develops stronger. You learn different things. I don't know, over time, honestly, by the time I got to Elhaz Ablaze, finding that website around 2007, I was sort of frustrated, I kept running into too many of those sort of heathen groups or people that held those folkish ideas and I just didn't resonate with them. They weren't my kind of people. Until I found Elhaz Ablaze, I didn't even know for sure if there were heathens out there who were super involved in magic and trying to do things with it. And about that same time, I started finding Jason Miller stuff, and found my way into strategic sorcery and took his course. And again, it has this profound rippling effect across my personal life and my practice. I go where, I try to focus all of my pursuits in the places where I see people getting the results. Andrew: I think that's a really important thing. If we're going to bother to do magic, then we really need to, need to really get results, like otherwise, why bother? It's a lot of work most of the time [inaudible 00:46:42] something from it. Lonnie: One thing I know true about magic, it works. The other thing I know true about magic is it doesn't work the way I want it exactly or even most of the time. So either, it's not like electricity, you can't just plug into it and get everything that you want out of it, or I'm a shit magician. And I choose to believe in myself. I'm going to go with, it's a much more subtle sort of thing that we tap into, and our influence probably plays with probabilities more than it produces profound effects. Although, I can't help but wonder sometimes if those profound effects are available to us, we just haven't figured it out. I know I haven't. Andrew: I think it was in one of Peter Carol's books where he talks about sort of divine over the short term on a shorter term and magic on a longer term to get the best combination of results. Lonnie: Yeah. I saw one time, I'm pretty sure it was Peter Carol from years ago who suggested that you should do divination and try to communicate with yourself in the future. See if you're going to get the results from the work before you do the work. It's not my thing but it's similar sort of idea. Andrew: I'm so curious, which runes your future self would send you in divination to indicate the success on a particular work, you know? How'd you know that it was a correct, you know? When you work with manual divination cards, runes, whatever, they have no choice but to answer. So we can't assume that there is an actual connection going on, right? Even when I divine with coconut with Orishas, unless I'm feeding them certain things, you always have to ask if they're actually there first, right? But I'm like, what would you set up as your own kind of like thumbs up. It's like people when they know they're going to die, they'd be like, if I come back and speak to a medium, if they don't say this word, it's not me. That's some of those things. How do you set that up with yourself? Lonnie: Yeah, that's a good question. You do bring up an important point there. I often have this conversation with people in paranormal investigations. I'm really happy to see more people using runes and tarot especially in paranormal investigations and trying to communicate with spirits just like the rest of us. But the minute you get those runes out or you pull a tarot card, you will have an answer, but that doesn't mean you're communicating with something. There has to be some sort of established thumbs up, some pre-game decision, this is how I know I'm really talking to something. Otherwise, that fool card doesn't mean anything other than I pulled a card. Andrew: Yeah. It's like when I'm, divining people coming in they're asking if they've been cursed. As somebody who reads to the public it's a question that I run across a lot. And I'm not dismissive of that question, I think that it's a valid question. I think that the answer is generally a lot less than than many people would think. But nonetheless, it can happen. But like, for me, there are only two cards in the deck that I will take as an affirmative answer to that question when that question is asked. So that's two out of 78. And one of them has to show up in a certain position for me to be like, okay, yes. They're actually saying, yes, this is real. And I think that having those clear understandings, what is that card that's the future Lonnie speaks card, you know, or whatever, right? Or future me speaks card. I think it's a really exciting idea. Lonnie: It's a fun idea to play with. I don't know how much merit I would give that idea of communicating with future selves. The armchair sort of, I watched a bunch of shows with Michio Kaku and Brian Green so I know something about science idea. I know they suggest that time may not be this arrow, that it could be more of a all time happening now kind of thing in one scenario. So maybe in that situation, if that's true, you could communicate with the future self. But then you get into all these possibilities and multiple futures. What if you know something too far ahead now, you you just change your mind so that doesn't matter anymore. How much are we locked into fate? What choices do we have? Andrew: Tells us a lot about ourselves once we start thinking about it. Lonnie: Yeah. You want to really hurt your brain. Andrew: I prefer to kind of go in a different direction generally with the future me stuff, which is, what should I do right now that future me will thank current me for having done. That's my often mode of operation. And that applies to like magical stuff, for sure, but it also applies to like getting my filing done and being on top of my bookkeeping and like all sorts of things. Because it's like, there's nothing like coming up to your thing, something happened recently, I was going to an event and I was like, oh man, I can't remember if I ever emailed back the person who I was supposed to stay with. And so I sent them a message saying, I hope it's not too late, I'm really, sorry if I left you hanging. They're like, no, no, you, like six months ago, you said, absolutely, I will be there. So I was like, oh, thanks past me. Lonnie: Yeah. Even when I do divination for clients or even myself, I don't ever look to see what the future is involved in that. That's not how I read. I'm more of a what's at play in your life now kind of thing. I even visually represent that, like with tarot, I can do this. When I shuffle the cards, I shuffle them nine times to represent the nine worlds of heathen cosmology. I split the deck three times to represent the three norms. I remove the middle, the middle pile of that as the cards that I'm going to draw for the reading because I think it represents the norm [inaudible 00:53:58], which is the present, the things that are becoming at play in your world now. I really think ultimately, that's what's most important to us. You know where you've been and if those things are important, they'll show up or they'll become more clear by the things that are happening now. As for what's going to happen tomorrow, what choices are you going to make? You're still going to be susceptible to the choices that other people make too. Andrew: For sure. Well, maybe that's a good place to leave it. Hey, listeners, go do some magic to mitigate the choices of other people and encourage the choices that you want to happen. One of the things that I would like to encourage for you the magic of my voice is for people to come and find you online where you're hanging out. You have your podcast and other stuff. Where should people come look for you on the internet? Lonnie: Well, you can absolutely find me at my own show, Weird Web Radio. Everywhere you get your podcasts. If there's not someplace you can find it, let me know, I'll figure out a way to get it on there. Weirdwebradio.com. Offer all my professional divination services at tarotheathen.com. On Instagram, Twitter and Facebook, as Weird Web Radio, and also have a special group for Weird Web Radio fans. If you want to get to know me more personally, I'm game. Just Lonnie Scott on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram as well. Andrew: Beautiful. Well, thank you for making the time to be hanging out for this conversation today. I hope having the table turned on you as the guest versus the interviewer wasn't too traumatic for you. Lonnie: No, not a problem at all. And just real quick before we get Out of here, I talked about Elhaz Ablaze quite a bit earlier in the show. And I wanted to let everyone out there know that we released a compendium of chaos heathenry not too long ago, it's just titled, Elhaz Ablaze: A Compendium of Chaos Heathenry. It's a collection of essays from those of us who do that and I've got an essay in there concerning some of my ancestral practices. So, go out and check that out. Andrew: Yeah, get your magic on folks. Lonnie: Yeah, get your magic on. Andrew: All right, thanks so much, Lonnie.
The Hermit's Lamp Podcast - A place for witches, hermits, mystics, healers, and seekers
Kelly and Andrew explore the influence of the planets in their lives and the lives of their clients. Sharing ideas about Uranus moving into Taurus. They also talk about the possibilities and limits of resolving challenges with more difficult placements. They also laugh a lot! Think about how much you've enjoyed the podcast and how many episodes you listened to, and consider if it is time to support the Patreon You can do so here. If you want more of this in your life you can subscribe by Spotofy, RSS , iTunes, Stitcher, or email. You can follow Kelly's work here. Andrew's fundraiser is located here or using andrew@thehermitslamp.com to send money via PayPal or transfer. Thanks for joining the conversation. Please share the podcast to help us grow and change the world. Andrew You can book time with Andrew through his site here. Transcript ANDREW: [00:00:02] Welcome to The Hermit's Lamp podcast. I'm hanging out today with Kelly Surtees, who is an astrologer, and someone that I've known for, you know, at least a decade, I'd say now a bit longer. And [00:00:17] their approach is really interesting to me because they're super smart about what they do, but they have a great sense of humor about it as well. You know, there's a way in which they seem [00:00:32] to me to continue to laugh and enjoy life and all of those things even when talking about intellectual stuff or hard stuff or whatever and I think that that's a trait that I super admire and [00:00:47] try and kind of hold in myself as I go through all of life's ups and downs and so on. But you know, hey Kelly, for people who don't know you, why don't you introduce yourself? Who are you? KELLY: Hey Andrew, well, I'm Australian, which might be obvious now [00:01:02] that I started talking. I married a Canadian and so I live, currently, just outside Toronto, but I'm an astrologer, probably what people are more curious about, and I've been an astrologer full-time professionally for nearly 20 years, [00:01:17] so it has been my life's work. I came to astrology very young, not because anyone in my family was interested in astrology, but because I was, and I started learning the basics when I was 10, 11 years old, back [00:01:32] in Sydney where it was a lot warmer than where we are now, and carried on with my sort of personal exploration. It was style of astrology through my teenage years and then in my early twenties, I actually signed up to do a massage therapy [00:01:47] training course and the college I was studying at in Sydney offered an astrology training program, which just had never occurred to me was a thing. So that's kind of how I got started, and what I do today is, I work with clients and students around the world, [00:02:02] I do one-on-one consults in astrology, but primarily what I'm doing more and more of these days is teaching the next generation of astrologists through my online training programs. ANDREW: Amazing. So before we, before we were recording [00:02:17] here, we started kind of talking about astrology and we were talking about the history and the way in which sort of history and tradition and sort of practice all flow together, and I think that I'd [00:02:32] love to kind of try and pick that up and talk about that a little bit, right? KELLY: Yeah. ANDREW: You know, what, where did your, where did your astrology start? Like what kind of, did you start out studying older forms? Did you, did you...? KELLY: Absolutely not. Not, I started with a [00:02:47] very modern psychological astrology, which was hugely popular in the 80s and 90s, like 1980s, 1990s. I started studying astrology in the late 1990s. And yeah, just had a very, [00:03:02] I would say, a very modern introduction to psychological, almost evolutionary, components in astrology. And that was great, it got me started got me into my practice, and it was when I attended my first astrology conference, which was the FAA [00:03:17] conference in Melbourne, I think in 2004, that I was lucky enough to hear people like Demetra George, John Frawley, and Lee Lehman speak, who are very well respected astrologers who all practice slightly different forms of mediaeval [00:03:32] or traditional astrology, and connecting with those teachers really aroused my interest in things like, where did some of these things we use in astrology come from? Like who first created the houses, for instance? Or why is [00:03:47] this planet associated with the things that it is associated with? So yeah, I would say within, you know, the first five years of starting my practice, that had become a real interest for me and that was like going down the rabbit hole. ANDREW: Yeah, for [00:04:02] sure. I think that there's, there's always this question about that kind of stuff for me, which is really like, where, how far down do we go? KELLY: Yeah. ANDREW: You know, starting, starting out for me, you know my interest in astrology [00:04:17] came out of you know, studying Aleister Crowley and studying his magical systems. And so, you know, it was a lot of magic and ideas around the inner planets predominantly, you know. KELLY: Yes. ANDREW: And you know, and sort [00:04:32] of like working with that and looking at that as a magical model and so on. But you know, as you start digging in and you start looking back, you're like: Okay. Well, where does that come from? And what is that? How far does that go? What, where is the source from which that wisdom [00:04:47] comes from? You know? And I think it's such a, such an interesting and challenging question to kind of slide into, you know? KELLY: It's a huge question, because it, you know, something… To try and answer that for astrology [00:05:02] takes you back to the origins of philosophy, to the origins of mathematics, you know, things like wondering why we've associated a particular physical thing or phenomenon with a certain emotional experience [00:05:17] or a certain philosophical construct. So when you dive into these origin stories, if you like, of some of the magical practices, you are almost going back to the dawn of human thought and human ideas and that can [00:05:32] be a very broad research project, because then you're not just learning explicitly about the origins of astrology. You're actually reading, you know, ancient philosophers, and you might be reading some of the original mathematicians to get a sense on why [00:05:47] they did what they did and where they were coming from. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I think it's so important to also try and understand, it's not just about what they said, which is certainly important. But it's also, [00:06:02] what were they? What were they thinking? How were they thinking about it too? Right? Because you know, like in a divination class that I've been taking with one of my elders, we were discussing how, you know, a hundred and fifty years ago, [00:06:18] the scope of life's experiences, that we needed to speak about in divination, were equally complex probably on the human front, but on the practical fronts, were much narrower in some ways, you know? The range [00:06:33] of human experience and the range of things we have access to is so different. And then you know, when we go back to, like, what was it like in ancient Greece and what was it like in, you know, here, there, or wherever, you know? Yeah, it's hard to even, I think, understand [00:06:48] exactly how they considered certain things. KELLY: Yeah. That's a . . . That's a really great point. I mean, two topics that come to my mind. One of them is, in the older literature on astrology, there's a lot of questions and a lot of detail around dealing with [00:07:03] ships and dealing with crops. So there's a lot of, you know, what indicates shipwreck? Or is my ship going to come in? And that seems a bit weird to a modern person, because why are they so obsessed with ships? But then you have to remind yourself that [00:07:18] many, many hundreds and thousands of years ago, ships were actually the primary form of transport. We didn't have trains or planes or obviously automobiles... ANDREW: Yeah. KELLY: And just to your point there, you do kind of have to almost put yourself back into: What was life like, two [00:07:33] thousand, two and a half thousand years ago, when things like crops were more likely to perhaps fail, water quality was a massive issue because that obviously led to the spread of disease or illness, life expectancy [00:07:48] was shorter, things like pregnancy were life threatening, in many cases, for women, and many more babies died, you know, in the first 12 months of their life then do today with modern medicine. So a lot of the questions and a lot of the, their life, if [00:08:03] you like, just to almost give a superficial summary, they lived a lot more, closer to the line of life and death than what we do today. And one of the kind of attacks against older forms of astrology is that it's so fated, you know, [00:08:18] and it's so deterministic, but the intention was to try and give clearer answers about really meaningful topics that were, you know, more touch-and-go than what they might be today. ANDREW: So where [00:08:33] do you, where do you fall on the sort of fated spectrum of things? KELLY: Oh, this is a really good question. And I've thought about it because it does come up. I have any . . . . ANDREW: Yeah! KELLY: Over the years. There's a beautiful quote. I think it's by Albertus Magnus, [00:08:48] who says something like, actually, maybe instead of bastardizing it. That's how you know, you're an absolute asteroid nerd, that you have books like this handy, [00:09:03] because there's, he has a beautiful quote that I kind of . . . . When I first discovered this quote, however many years ago, it really helped me clarify my own answer to the fate versus free will argument. So he says, "There is in [00:09:18] man a double spring of action, namely nature and the will, and nature for its part is ruled by the stars, while the will is free. But unless it, the will, resists, it is swept along by nature and becomes [00:09:33] mechanical." And that idea, like fate is sort of your, your nature, or what's kind of ruled by the stars, and the free will to my mind is our very human thinking, you know, application of effort, and I've seen [00:09:48] this in chart work with clients and students over the years now, enough that I know it to be true. That your birth chart might be, if it's almost like a map of your fate and if you do nothing, if you just allow the fate to manifest freely and purely, [00:10:03] it can give very clear sense of this area of life flows, and that's where you have success, and this area of life is where you're going to hit blocks after blocks. But if you choose to apply your free will, I'm not saying that anyone can make anything [00:10:18] happen because I don't actually believe that's true. ANDREW: Sure. KELLY: But I do think that there are certain topics, as indicated by the chart, where the application of one's effort, aka free will, can move the needle from completely dissatisfying [00:10:33] to perhaps somewhat satisfying or maybe from somewhat satisfying to more fulfilling. There are some topics in some charts that that have a bit of a firm no and that sort of response. So I do think we [00:10:48] have free will within a scope, if that makes sense. ANDREW: Yeah. KELLY: Yeah. ANDREW: Yeah, I think people come--because I do predictive card reading, right? KELLY: Yes. ANDREW: People are always like, where does, where's my free will? Like, [00:11:03] you know? Or they're like, well, just tell me how it's going to be. I'm like, well, in this case, it's a free will issue. How do you want it to be? In this case it's not a free will issue. You know? KELLY: Yeah, I think that's, that's a beautiful way of describing it. I mean, I've looked and worked with clients over the years and I've beautifully been blessed to have [00:11:18] a couple of clients allow me to share some of their chart work in my teaching. But I have a handful of clients who have been single their whole lives, and whatever they have tried or not tried or maybe they haven't even been interested. The topic of relationships [00:11:33] has simply not come alive for them. And there are ways to see things like that in the chart, and then there are other charts where it's like, there are some challenges here, but if you put the effort in, you got to be able to get a little bit more. But I like how you summarized [00:11:48] it there, that there are some topics that are kind of fated, and a little bit out of our hands and there are others where it's like, you can move the needle on this, if you desire it enough. Yeah. ANDREW: Yeah. I often think of [00:12:03] it this way: You know, so, we live on a planet with seven point whatever billion people. KELLY: Yeah. ANDREW: All of those people are seeking to exert their free will. KELLY: Yes. ANDREW: However, you know, everybody is to a greater or lesser extent [00:12:18] acting based on culture, which is, which is a force that, you know, if it's internalized and not undone, you know, it's just like fate, right? You know, like the cultural bias or cultural experiences or cultural expectations, [00:12:33] right? KELLY: Even family conditioning. ANDREW: Right? Well, that was going to be the next thing, right? Like, you know, our baggage, our personal baggage, right? And then we're, so, we're not only trying to exert free will, but we're trying to exert free will into the sphere where everybody else is exerting [00:12:48] those forces and maybe some degree of their own free will, and then there's some amount of chaos in the system, and then there's some fixed points, and it's like, so how much, how free is that free will? And I think, you know, maybe it's, you know, [00:13:03] as we're talking about it, I think it's a carryover from my time being so focused on Crowley's kind of magic of cultivating the will and building the capacity, you know, in the way that that quote talks about, right? Like, you know, it's like, how [00:13:18] free can we become from those things? The answer is, never free. KELLY: Yeah. ANDREW: Fully. But like, we can create a lot more space and in many areas of our life, maybe we can create a lot more space so that then we can kind of act, choose, [00:13:33] or discover where we are aligned better maybe? You know? KELLY: Yeah, and I think that's a huge part of any type of magical healing work, whether it's astrology or tarot, or other ritual practices. One of the things that [00:13:48] Dimetra George said in this very first conference years ago, which has stuck with me, she described that it's partly the astrologist's job to help the client understand the areas of their life that are most likely indicated flowing [00:14:03] fulfillment, and the areas of their life that are less likely to give a reward or sense of satisfaction relevant to the amount of effort that they might put in, and I think that's, you know, sort [00:14:18] of, to what you're speaking about here--We're speaking about. We can influence certain things to a certain extent, but you made a great point, like the 7 billion people, all trying to influence certain things. We [00:14:33] can't all get everything. It's just, it's not the way things are built. I won't have as many children as Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie, no matter how hard I try, that's just not part of my experience, [00:14:48] and other people might be like, but I want, you know, the wealth of Bill Gates or Warren Buffett or what have you and like, that's not, you know, so part of our work is to help guide people. Like you might think that you want these things. It doesn't really bring you fulfillment. Like there is an exploration [00:15:03] around the self-awareness, self-knowing, like knowing the self and moving beneath some of the things that we think we want, to get in touch with the things that really make us all come alive. ANDREW: For sure. Yeah and I know for me too, you [00:15:18] know, like because I spent a lot of time, especially magically, but you know, definitely in other ways too, kind of working to counterbalance the, you know, tendencies in my chart or the things that are more problematic there. KELLY: Yeah. ANDREW: But even [00:15:33] at that, you know, like, you know, like my placement of Saturn is just, you know, it's a it's a recurrent point of friction for me. And that's probably never going to change. I can see it coming. I can see it coming more now. I [00:15:48] can have better strategies for dealing with it when it kind of like, brings up its thing. I can make some degree of better choices in advance. But you know, it's sort of, it's a, it's a, it's in a place where it [00:16:03] just kind of continuously causes a certain kind of friction in my life. And you know, the reality is, it's like, well, I've just got to roll with that, I've just got to accept that, and I've got to learn to to see it and roll with it and move through [00:16:18] it and to not hold onto it. And, and even kind of at this point, you know, I used to think that I would eventually kind of like learn the lesson of that position and and be free of it in a sense, and I've even caught a move past that where I'm like, [00:16:33] I don't even think that-- I'm sure there are lessons that I will continue to learn about it. KELLY: Yeah. ANDREW: But I think that, that that's also a wrong idea. I think that, you know, stuff like, some of the aspects are just about straight up acceptance, you know, and just be like, look [00:16:48] at that. That's just the way it's going to be. Stop hoping it's going to be different. KELLY: Yeah. ANDREW: And then see what changes, you know? KELLY: Well, that is a really powerful piece. I mean, it reminds me of people who are like, I wish I was taller or I wish I was shorter or I wish I had, you know, different, [00:17:03] I mean, you can probably change your hair or your boobs or what have you, but it's very hard to change your height. You know, it just, you are either a tall person or a short person for the most part, and these-- You just have to work with it. You know, I'm a tall person. I'm 5'10". [00:17:18] I'm like a hundred and seventy eight centimeters or something. And you know, when you're a teenager, you hate that, because everybody, you can't hide in a crowd, people see, but you know, as an older woman or a more mature woman, it's lovely. I can carry a little bit of extra weight and [00:17:33] nobody knows, kind of thing. So my relationship to that fixed thing in me has changed over time and that's kind of, what you're speaking to here is that there are certain parts of our self and our psyche that we do have to [00:17:48] kind of just accept and it's what, the piece that I got really excited about, that you said, is what if I stop mentally and energetically and emotionally resisting this thing that is one way that I so desperately wish was another way? [00:18:03] If I just breathed out and allowed myself to acknowledge and accept, you know, I always have to be vigilant about money or about sexual interactions or about career, whatever it happens to be, based on, you know, you mentioned your [00:18:18] Saturn, someone else might have a problem with their Mars. You know, if you just kind of go into an acceptance place with it, the freeing up of energy and emotional power that you have been using to try and force back on that is incredibly liberating and when you take [00:18:33] that energy and you apply it to, you know, a talent or a skill, the idea of enhancing the good, you can radically change your life, not because you made that problem thing be anything other than what it was, but because you stopped [00:18:48] giving it all your focus. And you put your focus on to something that actually has, you know, some potential to take you in a more fulfilling direction. ANDREW: For sure. And I think that that's, I mean, that's one of the reasons why, going and sitting with an astrologer, [00:19:03] if you're not, you know, or learning it yourself is so helpful because there are aspects, you know. I mean, you brought up Mars, right? You know, I mean, I've Mars in Aries, I was a very angry young person, you know, and I have a, I have, when [00:19:18] it emerges, a very very bad temper. KELLY: Yes. ANDREW: But it's not that much of an issue any more. I mean, I still need to be mindful of it. But that one has been way more amenable to management and modification than [00:19:33] other aspects of my chart, because, because of its nature, maybe because of my nature, probably, because of its placement, and so on. So. There are those things where it's great and you can kind of turn them into an advantage. I mean it's part of what fuels my drive to do [00:19:48] what I do around work, right? Like I have a lot of energy, a lot of the time, and so I can do a lot of work and run the shop and do all those things. You know, whereas other people are always like, how do you do so much? I'm like, I've got Mars in Aries. I've just got gas in the tank. It just keeps going? You know? [00:20:03] KELLY: Yeah, you're the Energizer bunny, it just keeps going and going. I mean, what we're kind of alluding to here is something that comes to us from the Hellenistic astrology, form of astrology, that has to do with sect, which is S-E-C-T. Which kind of divides [00:20:18] charts into daytime or nighttime. Very simply based on the time of day that you were born. Then this working theory is that if you're born in the daytime, Saturn is going to be a little bit more helpful or productive for you and Mars a little bit more problematic. [00:20:33] And if you're born at night time, the reverse is true. Where in the nighttime, the cool of night tends to calm the heat of Mars, so you tend to get less sharp Mars problems. And in the nighttime, the cool of the night exacerbates [00:20:48] the kind of curmudgeonly Scrooge-like energy of Saturn, so you tend to get more of a harsher Saturn. ANDREW: Sure. Yeah. KELLY: In a nutshell. I don't know if that rings true for you, personally Andrew, but... ANDREW: Definitely, I was born at 9:30 at night. So. KELLY: Yeah, that was going [00:21:03] to be my question to you, just based on the fact that you seem to really like-- I mean, your Mars is placed in one of its home signs in Aries, and that also is a way of getting a little bit more of the positive potential. The other thing you're talking about too, though, is we are all hotter [00:21:18] as energetic beings in our youth, and if we have Mars problems, they will tend to be worse in our teenage years or in our 20s. ANDREW: Sure. KELLY: And then the aging process, where we cool and slow, just biologically, that does [00:21:33] temper some of the Mars problems. The reverse is true for Saturn, though. Saturn problems can sometimes be something we do have to carry with us, even as we age, because the nature of aging tends to kind of stimulate more Saturnian type manifesting. ANDREW: When [00:21:48] you talked about the, the coolness at night exacerbating, you know, Saturn. KELLY: Saturn... ANDREW: Yeah, I've had this image of like, oh, it's chilly, and my knee hurts cause it's cold now, and oh.... [laughing] You know, it's just like, oh, man, such a Saturn image, right? KELLY: Yeah, to have sore knees, or a sore back, and it's worse in the winter, because winter is like exacerbating Saturnian qualities as does nighttime. Yeah. I mean [00:22:16] there is a positive reversal here, which is that Venus and Jupiter, considered the two benefic planets, people born in the daytime tend to have more Jupiter type gifts or talents, because the [00:22:31] heat of Jupiter is really conducive to the heat of day time. Whereas Venus is more of a moist cool planet, generally speaking, and she really comes to the fore in the evening. So if you're born at night time after the sunset or before the Sun has [00:22:46] risen, and obviously daytime and nighttime is different depending on season and time of year and birth location. So-- ANDREW: Sure. KELLY: ....being born at 9:30 at night, if you're born in Europe in July, you might still be a daytime baby, because it's a very [00:23:01] late sunset, but if you're born at 9:30 at night in January or February in Canada, you're definitely a nighttime baby though. ANDREW: For sure. KELLY: Yeah. You do, you get like a specific type of problem, depending [00:23:16] on whether you're born in the daytime or nighttime, and then you get a planet that is giving you, you know, Venus is, can be, more creative or more relationship-oriented and that's nighttime gifts. Jupiter is more about that wisdom and teaching and inspiration and motivation and that's more [00:23:31] of a daytime gift. I mean, you have to look at the planet in the chart as well. I mean... ANDREW: For sure. KELLY: You'd want the Jupiter or the Venus to be in a nice sign or making a great aspect. Yeah, but that's, I don't know just when you were talking about your problem with Saturn, I'm like, I feel [00:23:46] like you must be born at nighttime because this is very-- ANDREW: For sure. Yep. My parents remember exactly what time I was born, because my dad was watching Hockey Night in Canada, which was on a Monday, [00:24:01] and you know, whatever right? Like he's like, there's like a very specific set of things that we associate around that, the memories around that, so they're like, there's no question about what time you were born, you know? KELLY: I love birth stories like that. Yeah. That's fantastic. ANDREW: Yeah, for sure. KELLY: So yeah, so this [00:24:16] is my guess, we got here, I'm like, how did we get here, fate versus free will and what's in the chart? And [24:24 not quite clear] really amazing. ANDREW: Yeah, I definitely think so. So, I'm also very interested, because I've been following along [00:24:31] what's going on in the stars these days, even though, even though it sort of, on a personal level, astrology has shifted away from what was at one point a more professional folks into a more just kind of personal curiosity. You know, I got really curious [00:24:46] about: we have this big shift into into Taurus right now, right? KELLY: We do. KELLY: Big energy. KELLY: We're recording this just as Uranus, like a big explosive volcanic planet, has moved into Taurus, which is the most [00:25:01] fixed stubborn stable sign in the Zodiac. There's a real contradiction, if you like, in the symbolic imagery here, Uranus loves to shake things up. It literally is like earthquakes and volcanoes and lightning strikes and [00:25:16] Uranus is like the farmer in the field. He's just plowing year after year, so this is a huge-- We're starting this new kind of seven to eight year cycle that is going to radically reshape society, [00:25:31] culture, and individually, each of our lives as well. ANDREW: Yeah, it's been, it's been interesting to watch sort of-- In my orbit, there's been a lot of people who've had a very [00:25:46] sort of disruptive shift go on in the last kind of, you know, like in the last few weeks, really, kind of you know, and it's sort of like, we're going along, I'm going this way. Oh, wait, what the hell am I doing? No, I'm [00:26:01] going to go this other way, you know? And it's such a, such an interesting shift to watch happen, you know, and to sort of, and also to try and roll with it, you know, because it's been-- A bunch of that's had an impact on me as well. So it's always, it's really [00:26:16] interesting to see it's going on everywhere. I'm like, all right, I'm gonna keep my eyes open, could be anywhere now, because it's the other thing about it. KELLY: Well, that's-- I was talking about this with a client earlier this week, and they had something in, their chart is being activated by [00:26:31] Uranus, they're a little bit resistant as you know, everyone with planets. So if I back up a second, Uranus is moving into Taurus, so it is activating anyone with planets in the sign of Taurus, but the way the planetary aspect patterns [00:26:46] or energetic patterns work, while Uranus is in Taurus, it will also have a fairly dramatic impact on the other fixed modality signs, which include Leo, Scorpio, and Aquarius. So those four signs, Taurus, Leo, [00:27:01] Scorpio, and Aquarius are all quite activated but it does get a little more technical than that in the sense that Uranus moves quite slowly. And so we actually had a taste of Uranus in Taurus in 2018 between [00:27:16] May and November, but Uranus was only activating the first one or two degrees of Taurus in 2018. This year in 2019, Uranus is going to activate all the way up to the first six degrees of Taurus. So [00:27:31] for people who might be familiar with their birth chart. Very specifically, if you have a planet between zero and six degrees of any of the fixed signs, so taught, you know, you could have, could be four Leo Well, three Scorpio or two Aquarius or five Taurus. [00:27:46] They're all getting that Uranus transit. And I was talking, I had a client this week who fell in that category, and they were very sort of resistant around: What if I don't want to make this change? what if I'm not ready to make this change? And [00:28:01] I kind of laughed because having worked with, you know, Uranus for many years, here is an indicator of that major kind of upheaval and change that leads to new freedoms and Independence. You know the Uranus change has a purpose, it leads [00:28:16] to new freedom, it leads to new authenticity, it leads to Independence. But if it's coming, it means that the shake-up, the time for the shake-up is now. And it can definitely surprise you. And I have a personal story where last [00:28:31] summer in the northern summer, I was very frustrated with where we were living. I just had sort of done 10 years in a little small town and I was just a bit restless and bored, and what's next? and when can we go and live near the ocean again? And [00:28:46] and so my husband and I had some really big talks over the summer, and we pulled it apart, his career really has him here, and we came up with a plan by the end of the summer, this was all while Uranus was in Taurus, where we would move to the West Coast in two [00:29:01] years time, when he would retire. And I was like, that's great. You know, it wasn't as soon as I wanted, but it was sooner than he wanted. So we did that lovely relationship compromise and then like a month later, he came home and said, there's a job in [00:29:16] a whole other part of the world, that I think I'm going to apply for, and I was like, okay, well just apply and see, and anyway, long story short, it took a few months. There's a lot of interview processes and we found out that he's accepted the job and we're now going to be moving [00:29:31] literally in the opposite direction to where we thought we were going to move and that's how Uranus works. I felt the energy of being restless and bored and we started doing our lovely logical human brainstorming about how we could come up [00:29:46] with a practical plan and Uranus is like, you're on the right track, but I want to throw a few surprises into the mix, and so here's an unexpected out of the blue wild idea. Do you guys want to say yes to this? And we did. And that's [00:30:01] so what you're saying, Andrew, it works like almost scanning. Where is this Uranus thing coming from, even when you know to expect the unexpected, Uranus can still surprise you and you know, give you those curve balls. They can be very exciting and very liberating [00:30:16] but they will not be what you had thought. ANDREW: Yeah, for sure. I feel like my experience so far of this energy is that I was thinking that I would be doing a lot more traveling and teaching over the coming while? KELLY: Yep! [00:30:31] ANDREW: And the shift in energy and the shift in circumstance over the last little bit and like right around now has, has gotten me canceling most of my travel plans, and being like, you know what, I think that, I think that what I [00:30:46] need to actually do is focus more on creation and focus more on like, sort of deepening the, the foundation of the store, and, and my work in regards to that, as opposed [00:31:01] to the sort of like, I'm going to go around and teach all over the place, which I love but it's like, it's like, no, that, that's not where you're going right now, and I'm like, all right. KELLY: Yeah. ANDREW: Fair enough. KELLY: So did you have a relatively quick kind of you know, I set up [00:31:16] this schedule and then just a few months later, kind of changing it and reshaping things? ANDREW: Yeah. I mean, it's really, some of the stuff has been set up for a while, but it's yeah, there's just been a bunch of projects and ideas that have been on the table that, that, [00:31:33] you know, starting, starting about, well really, starting at the start of this year, you know, sort of. So, I mean, I got divorced last year, and then, so I've been, you know, sort of like living separately now for about four [00:31:48] months by the time this goes live and I was just realizing that a) I'm kind of tired because it's been a lot, right? KELLY: Yeah. That's a lot to process, yeah. ANDREW: So there's that. B) My entire day to day living [00:32:03] situation has changed, you know, I have my kids half the time, you know, all my other work life tries to live in that sort of compressed other half time. KELLY: Yep, three or four days a week. ANDREW: Yeah, and, you know, and there's a lot more, oh, a [00:32:19] lot more, there's a lot of kind of running around that's a part of my life, you know, especially as my kids get bigger. KELLY: Yes. ANDREW: You know, they're not big enough to be... KELLY: All the driving. The driving. ANDREW: Yeah, or you know or like, taking them around, I mean, we live downtown so, you know, but they're, they're cool [00:32:34] to go. The older one's cool to go places they know, but if they're going anywhere new, they need us to take them, you know? KELLY: Yeah. ANDREW: So, it's like, all right, everybody's on the bus. Let's go here. Let's go there. Let's do whatever, right? KELLY: Yeah. ANDREW: And, and so all of those changes just made me realize [00:32:49] that, you know, I needed to kind of shift back to reassess my actual energies and that I also needed to kind of look at what's, [00:33:04] what am I what am I doing? And what am I hoping to get out of it? And does it make sense from that space, right? And so there are a bunch of things that I've been doing where, like, from a practical point of view, they seem like [00:33:19] they make sense but maybe more from an emotional point of view, I'm, I have some other agenda for being there that's not being met? KELLY: Yes. ANDREW: Around the growth of my career, around, you know, interconnection with people, around a bunch of different stuff, right? And once [00:33:34] I realized that discrepancy... And I was like, okay, so all of these things where I have an unofficial agenda, that's really my actual agenda, that is not in alignment with doing these things, I should stop that, you know? And, and [00:33:49] a lot of the travel was sort of geared around some of that stuff, right, you know, fun, escape, you know, status, whatever, I'm like, none of those things matter that much ultimately and if I want to have fun I should just go have fun. And if I want to like [00:34:04] escape, I should like, take a day off work and go do something, but like, traveling to go work somewhere else is not a way to accomplish those things, you know? KELLY: Yeah. Yeah. ANDREW: So. KELLY: So this is great because it sounds like you're coming into a deeper sense of what [00:34:19] is authentic and real and right for you. And that's, you know, the whole pathway of Uranus is that it is, it awakens us, if you like, to things that might have been latent or forgotten or neglected, but the [00:34:34] chaos or the upheaval of of changing things is a really critical part. It's like there's almost a dare, a cosmic dare, you know, if you would like this level of authenticity, how much are you prepared to change in your life that's kind of on the fake end of [00:34:49] the spectrum, to really sit in that deeper sense of self. ANDREW: Yeah. For sure, yeah, it corresponds with sort of a drive that I've been feeling as well. Like there are lots of parts of my life that I haven't [00:35:04] been public about. I mean, I haven't been secretive about them, but I haven't been like super public about them either? KELLY: Yeah. ANDREW: And you know, so like, you know, being a polyamorous individual. It's a thing that people, if they know me, know about me, but it's not a thing that [00:35:19] I've sort of historically, you know, broadcast per se, right? KELLY: Yeah. ANDREW: But also, I've been feeling like that's something that I wanted to change and so I actually recorded an episode, the episode previous to this is about poly, [00:35:34] polyamory and love and spirituality, you know, and so it's like, it's also that, right? Like what are the risks you're willing to take, right? What's, what are you willing to put in? How much discomfort are you, are you able to engage to get that authenticity? Right? KELLY: [00:35:49] Well, and this is the key, is that there is some discomfort and that's a really beautiful way. Like what risks, what are you prepared to lose, or put on the line so that you can be more authentic? Are you prepared for people to maybe judge [00:36:04] you a little bit because you're owning your stuff? And Uranus is really correlated with things that are counter cultural or might be defined against society's norms as a little unconventional or atypical. ANDREW: Yeah. KELLY: I always [00:36:19] think about Uranus in Taurus is like just letting your freak show out, like fly your flag, basically. We all have parts of ourselves-- ANDREW: Yeah. KELLY: That are a bit weird and a bit odd or bit unusual and when [00:36:35] Uranus shows up and really starts, because the last eight years we had Uranus in Aries. So there was a very specific type of Uranus vibration going on. And what I would say is, for most people, the last eight years brought a lot of that chaos [00:36:50] and call to authenticity. The next eight years probably won't be as strong for you, just because, you know, if you are activated by the areas or the cardinal sign piece, you may not have as much fixed signs, you know, in your life, but there is always a risk. There's always a level like [00:37:05] Uranus is like, how can you let the part of you that feels like a black sheep be more on display more of the time, you know, if you think you're wearing red when everyone else is wearing white, how can you embrace that part of you? So. ANDREW: Yeah. KELLY: It's wild, I mean and Uranus [00:37:20] in Taurus has some pretty specific collective themes that I think we're going to see as well. I don't know if you looked into those. ANDREW: Well, I'm, I listen to you and Chris and... KELLY: Austin. [00:37:35] ANDREW: Austin, I was going to say Aidan, and I'm like, no Aidan is a person who's on my podcast, Austin, on The Astrology Podcast where you do a-- It's a great thing, you should go check it out. There's lots of good stuff about it. The episodes that I listen to are [00:37:50] the sort of monthly forecast episodes where the three of you discuss what's coming and so, you know, I heard the discussions about, about that and the other elements, you know, that sort of tie it into maybe a bunch of economic change and other stuff [00:38:05] that might be coming. So, but yeah, if you want to share some of that I would love to hear it here too. KELLY: Yeah, I just thought, I mean, I always love the personal because I really love working at the individual level, but I know, people are often interested in the collective. So, the last time we had Uranus in Taurus was from about the mid [00:38:20] 1930s to the early 1940s. So we did have Uranus, I just to give people some context, Uranus is in Taurus about every 84 years. So we had that period early in the 20th century and then the time previous to that was like 1850s [00:38:35] kind of mutant 19th century and some of the things that happened globally in one or another of those periods, the mid-1850s, mid-nineteenth century period, was the gold rush, where we had this idea of like mining, [00:38:50] literally blowing up parts of the earth, which is Taurus. The blowing up part is Uranus, and we would, people were discovering gold or precious metals from the land, so there is definitely an environmental component to Uranus in Taurus, around [00:39:05] what are we doing to the land, the environment? What kind of an impact does that have, is it having? Unfortunately, you know, there may be some innovation in how the land is created or mind or what have you that may not be, that may be destructive [00:39:20] initially. So I'm not saying it's all perfect in that 1930s, early 1940s period: food, manufacturing, really, took off. A lot of what we call sort of modern food manufacturing, the food technologies were really developed [00:39:35] then. Some of those were fantastic and some of those things were relatively quickly proved to be actually quite dangerous. So, you know, every innovation that comes through around safe food, whether it's food production, food cloning, food [00:39:50] development, that type of thing, some of them are going to be great, that we'll want to keep around and others, you just, keep your wits about you but-- The other thing that's really different: Taurus is a feminine sign. It's ruled by Venus and it tends to be associated with [00:40:05] feminine type archetypes or feminine type people in society. And historically, there have been a lot of technological developments that have freed up women and changed women's roles in society when we've had Uranus in [00:40:20] Taurus. So things like washing machines or sewing machines or spinning looms have been developed in previous Uranus in Taurus cycles, you know, which was typically sort of woman's work with air quotes. And so, if it would normally take you four hours to [00:40:35] do something by hand and now you can use this, use this gadget and get it done in an hour, it gives you back your time. So there is something about Uranus in terms of freeing up time. And you know, one of the big things in that, the, because the [00:40:50] last time Uranus was in Taurus was through World War II, and one of the changes around sort of gender roles that happened then was so many young men sent away to war in many sort of English and first world societies, at the time, women [00:41:05] were allowed to leave the home and the domestic setting to go and fill some of the working job roles that were previously run by men or taken by men. So women got this taste of their own independence. They tried on different roles. [00:41:20] Of course, you know, the men came back from war and then the women were kind of sent back from the offices to their domestic duties if you like, but those women were the mothers of the women who-- mothers, sometimes grandmothers, [00:41:35] of the women who then really got very involved in the 1960s liberation that went on. So you can see some of these seeds of larger cyclical change that can come through. So just with Taurus being a [00:41:50] little bit more of a feminine sign ruled by Venus, the sign where the Moon is exalted. So the, two sort of typically feminine planets, nurturing, you know, anything to do with people who identify as feminine and, and whether that creates limits or opportunities [00:42:05] in society, and a lot of stuff I suspect also to do with women and childbirth and child-rearing basically, so there are some really key collective themes that we can keep an eye on. ANDREW: Yeah. Over the, [00:42:20] well, I think, I think it'll be interesting to see how those play out. I mean, I think that we can easily look at what's gone on in the last few years as setting the stage for that, right? Like the emergence, you know, of the me [00:42:35] too movement, you know, in the spiritual communities, the sort of rise of witchcraft and being a witch and the way in which that empowers the feminine often, you know, in a broader sense of definitely a lot of women in particular senses, [00:42:50] you know, I mean, I think that there's, there's lots of layers where, where I can sort of see that energy being ready for a change on some level, and you know, yeah, we'll see where that is. KELLY: Yeah. Yeah. I mean and I was saying, you know, [00:43:05] I've said to one client this week, you know, it's the idea of, watch this space. You know, Uranus, we know is going to pave new inroads and new types of innovation, new types of technology, 3D printing is a massive Uranus in Taurus thing, the idea that out of the ethos [00:43:20] we can create material objects, but you know, watch the space, just be open, the Innovations are going to surprise all of us, even those of us that are expecting them. ANDREW: Well, they always do, right? KELLY: Yeah. ANDREW: They always do. Yeah. Yeah, I was [00:43:35] just thinking the other day about about my cell phone and about, for some reason I was talking about the, back when I had a pager, to my kids, right? And they've never known any of those technologies. And they're like, what do you mean? Like someone would just send you their phone number and then you'd just call them? [00:43:50] And I'm like yeah, that was it worked, you know? And that wasn't that long ago. I mean, it was a while ago now, but it's not that long ago, right? KELLY: It's just been that, in our lifetime, Andrew. I mean, I don't know, I think you and I are relatively similar ages. Like when I was a kid, we were on a rotary [00:44:05] phone still? ANDREW: For sure. Yeah. KELLY: Yeah. It's really interesting. Alan Turing, who is a code breaker who worked in England, in Bletchley Park, decoding the German codes, funnily enough in World War II, he was [00:44:21] this mad kind of technological guy. He had a very prominent Uranus in his chart. So he's kind of relevant to what's being talked about. He had this image in the late 1940s. He imagined a day where women would be walking around the park [00:44:36] with their computers in their hand. And that was quite striking to me when I read that because that's essentially what we do these days with our phones. There's so powerful that they are I mean, you can store files and record video and interact [00:44:51] with, you know, people halfway around the world, and the phones we have today are better than the computers of the 50s, basically. So it is phenomenal. ANDREW: I mean, they're better than the computers of our childhood too, right? KELLY: Well, exactly! Those big... [Traces the shape of a big computer with her hands.] ANDREW: Think about my big 20-year, [00:45:06] my early PCs, or whatever, right? I mean, those things, you know, they didn't even have color monitors, you know? KELLY: No! We played black-and-white Pac-Man, basically. ANDREW: Yeah. Yeah. KELLY: Yeah, I remember being in like, I don't know grade three or four in primary school and there was [00:45:21] one computer in the classroom and each student, you paired up with a buddy and you each had about 20 minutes, you know, whenever computer time was, and all you did was play games. I guess it was just to familiarize us with the fact that these things existed. ANDREW: Yeah. [00:45:36] KELLY: But that's you know, that's the late 80s. That's a while ago now. ANDREW: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I had a Vic-20 and we, I was very excited, that I would spend like a long time doing programming and then I would run the program and it would like change the screen color. [00:45:51] And it was exciting and exuberant and then I, and then I would record my program onto the data storage unit, which was a cassette tape-- KELLY: Oh, my goodness! ANDREW: And it would like record it onto the cassette tape, right? KELLY: You could put a computer program on [00:46:06] a cassette tape back then because the-- Oh, my lord. ANDREW: Because they were so small, right? Like it was just text, right? Yeah. So funny, right? KELLY: Oh my God. Yeah. ANDREW: All right. Well now that I feel old. [laughing] KELLY: I know, now that we've made ourselves really feel middle-aged, [00:46:21] nurse? Yeah, it'll be fun. It'll be fun, yeah. ANDREW: So, is there anything else that is coming up that you're, that you're, inspired about? KELLY: Yeah, there is one thing that [00:46:37] I'm really excited about. ANDREW: Yeah. KELLY: And this is the great conjunction between Jupiter and Saturn that is happening in December of 2020 in the sign of Aquarius. It's a very nerdy type of timing cycle. It's currently being completely overshadowed on [00:46:52] the astrological airwaves because everybody's focused on the Saturn Pluto conjunction in early... ANDREW: Sure. KELLY: Which does have, I'm not saying it's not important. I'm just saying, personally, I'm more interested in the Jupiter Saturn. Jupiter and Saturn conjunct every 20 years, [00:47:07] but every couple of hundred years and, well, the thing is, every 20 years, they make these conjunctions in signs of the same element. So we have this elemental, you know, 200-year-cycle, and the conjunction in December [00:47:22] 2020 is really officially the start of the, air grand mutation, if you like. And so the last couple of hundred years, we have had Earth Jupiter Saturn conjunction. So we had a lot of Earth-based focus [00:47:37] collectively. We've had the Industrial Revolution. We've had structured work days. There's been a huge focus on money and mining and accumulation. And the air period is very much about ideas, movement, and interaction. So that's kicking off [00:47:52] December 2020 for the next 200 years. So for all of us alive now, we are going to witness this massive collective shift over the Air, out of the Earth element that has really governed so much of human experience since the [00:48:07] early 1800s. And we're going to be a witness to this change, which the type of technologies we were just talking about is a huge part of. The last time we had the Air elemental 200-year period, late 1100s, all [00:48:22] through the 1200s and most of the 1300s. Now, that was actually considered to be sort of the very first start of what then became known as the Renaissance. But in that time frame, we had these weird technologies like paper manufacturing being [00:48:37] perfected. And so the idea with Air is that we're talking about ideas and the dissemination of ideas. Astrology actually went through a massive rebirth in that time period, pre the official Italian Renaissance. And [00:48:52] I think what we're going to see is, ideas or philosophies are going to become more of a focus and they're going to spread more. We're also going to have people moving around a lot more. There was a lot of invasions [00:49:07] that happened in that time frame where people spread out with their ideas more. The big disease that happened through that time frame, of course, was the Black Plague, which is an airborne disease. So the idea, at the end of 2020, as we start this Air [00:49:22] period, where everything is to do with the mind, to do with the intellect, and to do with technology, and to do with the dissemination of ideas becomes much more. And it's hard to imagine how it becomes more than what it has become already, but it is going, is going to be faster accelerations [00:49:37] there. And then I think you know from a disease perspective, those types of airborne issues are also something we're going to need to be more mindful of, so yeah, so a few hundred year chapter. ANDREW: Time to double [00:49:52] down on getting your flu shot! [laughs] KELLY: Yeah, flu shots, you know, when you think about how mobile people are becoming, in the sense that we don't all go to 9 to 5 jobs in specific locations anymore. That's a very Earth kind of thing to do, [00:50:07] and also, you know, this podcasting. I mean, it's the radio of the modern era, but it is about-- Like I think podcasting is just going to get more and more popular, anything that's online, that involves the sharing of ideas or insight or [00:50:22] wisdom is just going to explode. We haven't even touched the tip of it yet, basically. ANDREW: Yeah. It's an exciting time to be alive. KELLY: Exciting time to be alive. I don't know that it bodes well for things like banking industries or credit systems, because I think they're going to go [00:50:37] through a massive upheaval, but that's... We're probably due for that. ANDREW: Yeah, I think so. I think that, yeah, I mean, I hear every single year that the banks here make more money than they've ever made before. [00:50:52] KELLY: Yeah. ANDREW: And I'm just like, how is that even possible? And, you know, and the answer is well, you know, there was a time where having a bank account meant that you accrued money on your, on your savings, [00:51:08] you know, but the idea now, like, you know the amount of fees and this, that, whatever, there's no way, you know, unless you have heaps and heaps of money in there, that, you know, anybody's going to be making any money off of a bank account. So, you know, so those dynamics are going to, you [00:51:23] know, shift again at some point, right? So. KELLY: Absolutely, and we're seeing that a little bit with alternative payment process and alternative money transfer options, you know... ANDREW: Yeah. KELLY: Back in the day, we had to go to what, Western Union, to send money internationally. And now, [00:51:38] there are companies, and I, we use one called Transferwise, which allows you to send money if... There's more of a mobility here that the banks don't have the monopoly that they used to. Now look, they still have a massive monopoly, and they're making huge amounts of money. ANDREW: Sure. KELLY: But [00:51:53] you're seeing more of these little startups popping up that I think are going to become increasingly popular. Venmo, I think, is really popular in the states, that type of thing. ANDREW: Yeah. Well, even, even PayPal and you know, Apple's integrating it [00:52:08] directly into the, directly into the phone, so you can just text people money and stuff, like it's all changing, right? KELLY: That's, that's the thing, like you used to have to go and get cold hard currency and nobody has... ANDREW: Right? KELLY: ....physical cash anymore, money is just a number on a computer [00:52:23] screen. ANDREW: Yeah, you don't even have to talk to people anymore. [laughs] KELLY: You don't! I mean, you know, you go to a bank, and nowadays there's more machines than there are people because of the automation, if you like. ANDREW: Yeah, for sure. KELLY: That's something I think we're [00:52:38] going to have to work on as a human race, is humans get something from being physically with other humans that we can't duplicate, you know, and even doing things like this where we're online and we can see each other. It's great, and it's a, it's a functional [00:52:53] substitute, but it cannot replace the exchange of multiple levels of energy that happen when you're physically in person. And so I think that's going to be almost our goal, is we have to still come together in the flesh, [00:53:08] even though we don't have to any more. ANDREW: Yeah. So take away from this episode: go hang with your peoples. KELLY: Yeah. ANDREW: Watch your money. KELLY: Yeah. ANDREW: And if and if a company called Skynet comes and wants to sell you some robots, say no thank you because [00:53:23] nobody needs a Terminator showing up at their house later on. KELLY: Right, nobody needs a terminator. ANDREW: Well. Thank you so much for making time to hang out with me today. It's been so nice to catch up. For people who want to come and follow you. I mean, I already mentioned [00:53:38] The Astrology Podcast and that thing, which I'll put a link to in the show notes, but where else are you hanging out, where should people come and find you to be in your orbits? KELLY: Yeah. Look, if anyone does want to, follow along if you like. My main [00:53:53] website is KellysAstrology.com, but you can also find me on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. I'm a little bit chatty on Twitter occasionally. It is actually my preferred social media platform. Like, I know that sort of sound and I'm not, that's weird these days. in addition to [00:54:08] the monthly episode on The Astrology Podcast, I also do a weekly show with two Aussie girlfriends called the Water Trio Astrology Podcast, and you can find that, as well as The Astrology Podcast on SoundCloud, iTunes, and YouTube. Coming up at the end of March [00:54:23] is my next online training class on career and life direction in astrology. So the idea here is, I'll be showing you how to answer the question of what should I do with my life and that's a four-part training. There will be a live weekly class initially, but it will also be all online, [00:54:38] and one of the new offerings that I just started last year that's been really popular is my monthly astrology guide service, which is a subscription-based offering where you get details about every astrology aspect happening every week and every month. So if [00:54:53] you're kind of obsessed with astrology and you want to follow along at home with your own chart, that resource provides all the info you need. Everything that you might need on any of those counts can be found on my homepage of my website, KellysAstrology.com. ANDREW: Awesome. [00:55:08] KELLY: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me, Andrew, it's been great to chat. ANDREW: Oh, thank you for being here.
The Hermit's Lamp Podcast - A place for witches, hermits, mystics, healers, and seekers
Andrew and Ariana talk about everyones favourite topic love. Exploring how their relationship to polyamory and spirit guide and shape their world view. The podcast also takes a tour through astrology and spirituality in general. If you are looking to explore polyamory or just for a different world view check it out. Think about how much you've enjoyed the podcast and how many episodes you listened to, and consider if it is time to support the Patreon You can do so here. If you want more of this in your life you can subscribe by RSS , iTunes, Stitcher, Googleplay, Spotify or email. Thanks for joining the conversation. Please share the podcast to help us grow and change the world. You can find Ariana through their website here. I hope you are finding all the love you want and need. If you wanted some help with it you can book time with Andrew through his site here. Andrew Transcript ANDREW: [00:00:00] Welcome to another episode of The Hermit's Lamp podcast. I'm here with Ariana Felix and we are going to talk about some really interesting stuff today: romance, love, non-monogamy, and polyamory. [00:00:15] And, I came across Saltwater Stars, which is their Instagram, and started following them, and, you know, have been really enjoying listening to their astrology and listening to a bunch of the other great work [00:00:30] that they're up to. And when I saw a post about polyamory, I was like, yes, this is this is the conversation or the person-- I've been waiting to have a conversation on this for quite a while and it seemed like the right fit, so. But for people who don't know who [00:00:45] you are, why don't you introduce yourself? ARIANA: Yeah, so I'm Ariana and I run Saltwater Stars, which is mainly an astrology platform, to use the word, but I'm an astrologer [00:01:00] and my work is doing readings and writing a lot of writing, about what's going on astrologically, but I also play with tarot and magic and, you know, brujería. I'm [00:01:16] from Brooklyn, New York, by way of Puerto Rico, but I live in southcentral Pennsylvania right now. So yeah, I think that pretty much sums it up. That's like a 10-second summary. ANDREW: Perfect. So I'm [00:01:32] sure, like, people have heard the term, but I wonder if there are people who don't know what brujería means. ARIANA: Oh, yeah. So brujería is basically the Spanish word for magic. It is usually referring to Santería. [00:01:47] And it actually has a huge connotation with, like, as a derogatory term. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ARIANA: So how it's being used now, in the like quote-unquote mainstream, [00:02:02] is really about reclamation of the term. ANDREW: Yeah. ARIANA: Even though, still, in like in my culture, it's still, a majority look at it as a negative thing, you know, like brujería. It's witchcraft, basically. ANDREW: [00:02:17] Yeah, for sure. Well, it's the thing that everybody looks down on until they have a problem, right? And then they come knock on your door and be like . . . ARIANA: Yes. ANDREW: . . .please help me with the thing! help me with this! [laughing] ARIANA: [laughing] Right. What, like, what was it, that thing that you mentioned the other day, that I was skeptical about but now I might really need? Like-- [laughing] ANDREW: Exactly. Exactly. For [00:02:35] sure. Yeah. ARIANA: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: Yeah. My elder references a Cuban saying, which is something like, something along the lines, in English, of you know, everybody's Catholic on Sunday, and then they go see the saints, like the Santos, when they, when [00:02:50] they have a problem, right? You know, so. ARIANA: Claro. ANDREW: That's how it goes. ARIANA: Exactly. ANDREW: So, tell me tell me about, like, polyamory for you. You know, [00:03:05] where did that start, if there's sort of a clear start? How did you, how did you find your way to that? You know, like, what was that journey like for you? Because, you know, that's not a thing that-- I mean, it's growing [00:03:20] in awareness in the media and I think in general these days, but you know, it's definitely not, it's still not everybody's life. Right? It's still kind of different in that way. So, yeah. ARIANA: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Oh, geez. I [00:03:36] think I was always, like in my adult life, I was always really curious about it. But still from this like, vantage point of being like, “Oh, that's interesting, but probably like, not [00:03:51] right,” you know? Like I grew up very, like, strictly religious. And so, when I like exited out of that and was, you know, doing my own thinking, when it came to relationships, I just, I [00:04:06] was like, fascinated by the idea that like, tap, polyamory taps into this concept of like, the expanse of love, you know, so much of like heteronormativity and patriarchy is [00:04:21] about this like, finite amounts, you know, and that's why you need to have possession over it because there's like only so much, so you better get yours, you know. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ARIANA: And so that never really resonated with me. And [00:04:36] then I was also, I think, as curious as I was about it, confused, because, you know, well, I wasn't like really educated about it, and I was confused by the fact that I like also really appreciated deep intimate relationships, [00:04:51] you know, and commitment. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ARIANA: And so I was like, well these things don't fit together, you know, [laughing] and so it wasn't until the past two years, really, that it's been like part [00:05:06] of my life, but it's been very very gradual because there's been a lot of deconditioning that I've had to do for myself to kind of navigate the shame that came up around [00:05:21] it, which is like, fortunately, I have a lot of experience in, because so many things about my life are like the opposite of how I was raised, you know? ANDREW: Yeah. ARIANA: And what I was taught to think. And so, for me, the, I [00:05:37] think, like the entry point into non-monogamy was really about allowing myself to prioritize pleasure, to prioritize love of all kinds, right? And [00:05:52] I just like, I'm really committed to this idea that, why would I say no to more of that in my life, right? Because of, like, heteronormativity and patriarchy and whiteness. Like why would I block access [00:06:07] points off for myself? And so I think that was the thought that kind of catapulted me into being like, Okay. This is something that I do want to live into and that does feel right for me and that does fit into, like, [00:06:22] my own love ethic, you know? And so, it was interesting, because I was all, I'm already, I was already in a committed relationship that was like, very seemingly heteronormative, you know? And so, it's like, [00:06:37] I had to, you know, have those conversations with my partner, right? And it was like this learning curve that we shared together, you know? But I had to like, be brave enough to initiate [00:06:52] it, you know? And be like, this is something that I want and that I'm curious about, you know, because it could have very well not have resonated, right? But I had to like make the decision to be open to experimenting. ANDREW: For sure. Yeah, [00:07:07] I think it's really, you know. My experiences with it is that it's definitely-- There are people who are more naturally suited towards it than others. You know, I think it's not necessarily for everybody. So that being aware that like [00:07:22] you can try this out and be like, “Oh, you know what? No, thank you.” You know, that's great too. Right? But yeah. Yeah, I think, I think this, this process of sort of deconditioning stuff, you know? I think it's [00:07:37] so helpful, right? You know, I mean, I think that as a person who spends a lot of time talking with other people about their love life, you know, being a card reader, I feel like having [00:07:52] committed, you know, continuing to commit a bunch of energy to deconditioning, you know, all the different things for myself around love and other things is super fruitful. But I also think, in terms of finding our own happiness, [00:08:07] I think that that's so key as well, right? You know? And for me, polyamory, nonmonogamy, and like all this kind of stuff, it's kind of been a constant theme for, like, since I was, you [00:08:22] know, in my late teen years, sort of, on and off all the way through my life, you know? And it's been either, you know, it started out as a relatively--unconscious is the wrong word. But you [00:08:38] know, we would, we, me and someone I was seeing, would have conversations about inviting other people over or who we wanted to bring home from the bar at the end of the night or you know, all that kind of stuff. And so that in that sense, it was very conscious, [00:08:55] you know, because we were talking about it, but it also was not really considered in a framework or a structure. There were no bigger conversations about it. It was sort of always, you know, [00:09:10] close to the moment and without a lot of sort of conversation about what it meant or what else might happen or all these kind of things, you know? And so a lot of, a lot of my journey sort of after that period was of sort of trying [00:09:25] to sort through and figure out what those, what those dynamics that make sense for me around that are, right, you know, and right, you know, all that kind of stuff. So, but yeah, I think, I think that for me, where I've kind of gotten to with it is this place where [00:09:40] I think that connections with people across the board, you know, friends, lovers, relationships, whatever, they tend to have a natural [00:09:55] level or a natural level of intimacy or connection, physical or otherwise, that if there aren't limits placed on them, then they'll arrive at, you know? So it's been this process of sort of, especially [00:10:10] in the last few years of sort of settling into, you know, understanding how I can see that in different dynamics and how sort of finding that level of intimacy, being like, Oh, yeah. This is, this is wonderful, and [00:10:25] and I don't necessarily want more, you know, in a conventional sense, but this is great, and this could just continue to be great or you know, these level of orbits are great, or all those kinds of things. So. Yeah. ARIANA: I [00:10:41] think a huge thing for me, that in retrospect I'm grateful for, was like knowing myself well enough to know that I wasn't, I'm not particularly a casual [00:10:56] person. With the exceptions of make outs, I'm very casual about that. [laughs] When it comes to like intimacy and all that, I knew about and I know about myself that [00:11:11] I do like to have, like, at least the shape of the container, you know, and agreements, and clarity, and I don't know, the word commitment is coming to mind, and I know that has a lot of its own, [00:11:26] you know, baggage, but I like longevity, you know, and so in all my relationships, you know, like with my family and with my friends and etc. It's really important to me. And so I [00:11:41] was really lucky to come across the term poly-capable because I was like, you know, obviously there's that overlap between polyamory, nonmonogamy, but I was interested in nonmonogamy [00:11:56] for the sake of more partnerships. ANDREW: Right. ARIANA: Right, not so much for the sake of cruising itself, which is, you know, also totally cool. And so I think that piece is what has allowed me to be clear [00:12:11] about what kind of connections I'm interested in or have the potential to grow that way, right? Because you know, obviously it can't be like a decision from the get, [00:12:26] you do have to like build a relationship. ANDREW: I think I want to pause you there for a second. I think it, I think it, I want to hear what you have to say after too, but I think that one of the things that I think is such [00:12:41] a an important piece to understand, is how to, how do we on-ramp into relationships? You know, and how do we hang out in that space? You [00:12:56] know, like where you're like, I would like containers. I like a sense of commitment. You know, I personally tend to not use the word commitment but sort of tend towards the word agreements, even though maybe it's a bit semantic, but you know agreements, [00:13:11] for me, implies sort of more of a, we're always reaching those things, you know, or they're open to renegotiation and to change in a way that commitments doesn't feel as much, but I think that so many people, especially people [00:13:26] who are not polyamorous, that space where, you know, they don't want to be casual, they don't want to not have a sense of commitment. They don't want, you know, like [00:13:41] all of those kinds of things. And yet, meeting somebody and starting to date somebody always involves all of those kinds of things. Right? And I think that that, that sort of, how, you [00:13:57] know, I'm really curious how you navigate that. And I think that, you know, anybody who's out there dating and is sort of like working with this stuff, you know, I think that it's a really important question to ask and kind of get clear, because I think that there [00:14:12] are so many kind of pitfalls around that, you know, in our own minds and hearts and fears that they really make that kind of wonky for a lot of people, so that's why I wanted to pause you because I thought that was such an important piece there. You know, how [00:14:27] do you know? ARIANA: Yeah. Yeah, I feel like it's that that knowing what I want. All right, like knowing that I'm interested in more partnerships [00:14:42] in my life, especially with people of color, you know, like black indigenous people of color. Like that's my priority, and so, it's kind of like more like a guide than anything [00:14:57] else, right? Because there is, like you're saying, there is, like you're saying, that part of all of it where you don't know what's going to happen, you know? ANDREW: Sure. ARIANA: And everything is even when there's like, okay, we have this agreement, like you said, is all open for renegotiation. [00:15:13] And I think that's, like you're saying, is a super essential piece to, like, any of this working, right? And so, I think that I know I [00:15:28] feel like it's so highly contextual, right? So you can be, like, with one person, being clear about what you want, and they are also interested in the same thing. And so you're seeing how you can grow that together if it's possible, right? And then there might be another person with whom you're like, this [00:15:43] is what I want, and they're like, I'm not interested in more partnerships, you know, or not interested in what you want, this is what I want. You know what I mean? And so, I think, that allowing for that, allowing for it to be highly contextual, you know, and super nuanced, and [00:15:58] just like, it's never going to be concrete. You know? ANDREW: And when you run into somebody and they're, sort of, you know, looking for something different, will you just let that go, then? Will you tend [00:16:13] to walk away from that? Or what's, you know, like, cause that's the thing, right? You know, when people are looking for love, right? So often we like, you know, cause, oh my, look how cute they are, I mean, maybe I could, I [00:16:28] could be a little different, or like, you know, or like, or I don't have any other options, or, you know, like there are many reasons why we get pulled into this stuff, right? And so, I'm curious how you handle that. You know? ARIANA: I [00:16:43] think that, so far, my, the way that I've handled it has been to kind of like that, oh, walk away, not be like, “Okay, well, we're never talking again,” you know, but that's [00:16:58] like a, that's a hard, that's a hard one for me. If our desires aren't congruent or what's the word, I [00:17:13] don't know, like, if our desires aren't compatible, it's like really hard for me, to, I don't know like, alter my desire? [laughing] ANDREW: Right. ARIANA: So, like, maybe it's better [00:17:28] if, you know, the nature of the relationship or the connection changes, so that I can manage this on this side. Does that make sense? ANDREW: It does. Yeah, for sure. ARIANA: And I know, I know, I know about myself that I have a tendency towards being [00:17:43] kind of like working with absolutes and I'm learning my way around that. So I guess this is the honest answer is like, I do tend to be like pretty absolute and I'm learning how to leave more room for what actually happens, [00:17:58] right? Because like life is not absolute at all. ANDREW: Yeah. Sure. ARIANA: So yeah, that's my answer to that. So I definitely, the whole like leaving space to [00:18:13] adjust my desires and allowing a connection that might not have been what I wanted but it's still something in its own right is really hard for me. ANDREW: Yeah, I think that's fair, right? I think that's totally fair. You know, I mean, I tend to be [00:18:30] a very considerate person, you know, as Sagittarian and as exuberant as I am about things, I'm also a very considerate person and so I tend to kind of always temper that by like, [00:18:45] looking at what's going on in, in all the arenas of my life and sort of, kind of, with a half an eye to making sure that I don't inadvertently, like, blow up the stability that I've been building, you know, because it's like, oh, it's so exciting. I could just whatever, right? ARIANA: [laughing] ANDREW: It's like, no, [00:19:00] no, dude. You can't do that. That's not, that, that actually isn't going to work out well in the long run. And I think that that's true around poly for me too, you know? I mean being aware of like, what are my [00:19:15] actual energetic and time limits? You know, what are my? You know, I mean, like, it's, I do casual very well as well as sort of relationship stuff, but even at that, I only have so much time in my life, you know? [00:19:30] ARIANA: [laughing] ANDREW: Between kids and shop and partners and so on, right? It's like— ARIANA: Right. ANDREW: All of those things require some attention, you know? And I think that my other kind of almost [00:19:45] like my mantra through like, you know, the last couple years has really been: be brave, make the brave choice right now. What's the brave choice here? And sometimes that brave choice is [00:20:00] like, fess up and be like, I really really like you, you know, like I really hope this continues or whatever, and sometimes that brave choice is like, you are so darn hot, and yet also this is [00:20:15] not going to fit in my life, and I can go find that hotness in a way that, you know, maybe does work in my life. And so being brave enough to kind of like, step away from both [00:20:30] of those things. But like, you know, it's not quite a talking myself down to putting down the, you know, put down the phone, don't send that message. You know? It's not quite at that level but there's definitely moments where it's like you know what, just, what's the brave choice here? How do you commit to [00:20:45] the brave choice? You know? And I think that that's kind of been where I've been leaning and you know, it tends to work out well, but you know, but yeah, but sometimes it's not always easy, right? ARIANA: That is such a Sag mantra. [00:21:00] I'd have to say. ANDREW: Which part of— ARIANA: What's the brave choice? That's so Sagittarius. ANDREW: Yeah. What about that, though? I'm curious. Like, which sign are you? ARIANA: I'm a Scorpio. [00:21:15] ANDREW: Okay. ARIANA: With like a million planets in Scorpio. That's my issue with absolutes and [laughing] … ANDREW: Uh-huh. Yeah. ARIANA: Just like Sagittarius has this, you know, it's a fire sign and like the other fire signs, [00:21:30] really works with this initiatory energy, you know, and that requires bravery and courage and this, like, transparency of spirit, you know? And so I love that that's what you're working with, because it's actually, [00:21:45] with this, like, when it comes to polyamory, because polyamory itself is about expansion, right? And that's so Sagittarian a concept, very ruled by Jupiter is about expanding things. And so, using such a like [00:22:00] fiery mantra to create room for that expansion, right? and to, like, navigate yourself through it, I think is really powerful. ANDREW: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's one of those things, right? I mean, I think that dating at any [00:22:15] level isn't easy, necessarily, right? Like there are times where it's really easy, which is great. There are times where it's work and there are times where, you know, we get kind of stuck in it, right? Or stuck in ourselves or, you know, or life just doesn't align [00:22:30] with it. Right? And I think that just being so aware of all that stuff is so helpful, you know. Yeah. So, let me ask you a question towards a Scorpio then. ARIANA: Okay. ANDREW: How do you deal with [00:22:45] jealousy? ARIANA: Oh God. BOTH: [laughing] ARIANA: You couldn't, you couldn't find a more original Scorpio question to ask! [laughing] ANDREW: You know, I'm only a basic astrologer. So [00:23:00] all you're going to get it is [laughing] ARIANA: Fair enough, fair enough! [laughing] ARIANA: Jealousy… So, what's really interesting is that I feel like I've struggled with [00:23:15] jealousy my entire life. Like I remember as a child, like, someone would play with my friend and I was like, you know, why are they playing with my friend? ANDREW: Yeah. ARIANA: And so I've had a lot of time to kind of work through it [laughing] and figure out how [00:23:30] to, how to manage it. And so at this point in my life, I find that it's really parallel to my work with like self-confidence and self-esteem, you know? And then stuff, It's, really, the [00:23:45] intensity of it has dissipated a lot and I-- It doesn't often come up for me. And I think part of that is also just because of my beliefs, right? Like the same beliefs that allow me to be polyamorous and [00:24:00] have an open relationship with systems. Those are the same beliefs that dissipate my jealousy because it's like, okay. I don't want to be in a relationship of like transaction or possession with people, [00:24:15] places, and things, you know? And so reminding myself of that helps me to be like, you know, and it's also, I don't know. I think that, [00:24:33] I really, it's really important to me that the people that I love and care for feel spaciousness in relationship with me. And I think I have this, like, terror that my jealousy would, you know, [00:24:48] like, reduce that or eliminate that, the spaciousness. And so, if and when it does come up for me, I tend to just like, manage it on my own, you know, like walk myself through words, like, you know, “this is not a big deal, and it's okay.” And something [00:25:04] that's also helpful is not assigning meaning to things, you know? Because I think for me, my relationship with jealousy is almost always about, “Oh, okay, I am like, not as important, or not as amazing, and I'm going to be abandoned,” [00:25:19] you know. ANDREW: For sure. ARIANA: Basic abandonment trauma issues, [laughing] and so reminding myself that that's not the case, you know, just because someone's like, talking to someone, [laughing] has been really helpful. So [00:25:34] I think also. Yeah, I think I just like really have this deep priority to not-- I don't want that to take up space and I think growing up in a household where, like, my parents' marriage was so full of that. So, like, just [00:25:49] an abusive level that really turned me off to it, you know, so like when it comes up, I'm like, yeah, no, we're not going to do that. Like, that's not, that's not allowed, but not in the way where I'm like, pretending that I don't feel it, you know? I'm just managing it for myself. So [00:26:04] far so good. [laughing] ANDREW: I find that-- I mean, I think that there are a few things. And a bunch of them, a bunch of them, good chunk of stuff that I [00:26:19] think comes down to like evoking jealousy for me, also, comes down to like, understanding like, how I actually am interested in poly or [00:26:34] what I'm actually interested in, you know? And so like, you know, being aware that, like, you know, for example, maybe if somebody like, if [00:26:49] there's, if I want, if I wanted a more serious connection with someone than they were available for and they were like a super casual person who had a high turnover of like, of lovers? That's probably not a good place for me to be. ARIANA: Right. ANDREW: Like that's not a-- It's not a place [00:27:04] where I can get what I desire from that situation. ARIANA: Exactly. ANDREW: And so like, kind of rolling that back and sort of taking ownership for it and saying, this is not about them and what they should or shouldn't do, that's not helpful, you know? ARIANA: Right. Mm-hmm. ANDREW: And like you [00:27:19] said, one of my, I'm definitely on the side of, I don't want to limit other people's freedoms. And, you know, and I'm not going to allow people to necessarily limit mine either, you know? I mean, there are agreements, which is something different. But [00:27:34] even at that, those agreements don't extend to, you know, the rest of my life in the sense that they cut off a bunch of things, you know, they're more like, these are these are my commitments to this relationship, and you know, and those tend to [00:27:49] be more about time, energy, attention, and things like that, you know, or safer sex things, or what-have-you, right? But and then, some of the other stuff comes back to like, you know, for me, jealousy, you know, other [00:28:04] than what I just talked about, is either rooted in something that's deeply unexpected? ARIANA: Mmm. ANDREW: Where, where everything seemed like it was going in a certain direction and somebody talked about things in a certain way and [00:28:19] then something happened that made them realize they wanted something completely unexpected, from my point of view, maybe from theirs, maybe not. ARIANA: Mmm. ANDREW: And so that that can be difficult and invoke that feeling of jealousy, which then, [00:28:34] you know, seeing that and having the clarity to go to the person, and say: “So hey, I'm having some feelings about this because everything that I heard was going in this direction and then this was a change,” you know, that can be like, you know, can make it [00:28:49] clearer, right? You know? And clarifying that and understanding more about what that change was or how it occurred or whatever, usually gets rid of it, you know? ARIANA: Right, right. ANDREW: And then the last one is this, like, you know? You know, there was a time not [00:29:04] so long ago where I had a bunch of feelings and, you know, ultimately it was about the fact that sort of two of my kind of more casual ongoing people ghosted on me. And you know, like, it wasn't about the [00:29:19] person that I felt it towards at all, it was more about that sense of lack of stuff and the disruption in my life. And then that kind of, like, bleh! [laughing] ARIANA: [laughing] ANDREW: You know? I don't have a better word for it than that, but that like that mess [00:29:34] of complicated feelings— ARIANA: Right. ANDREW: Before it got kind of parsed out into what it was, actually about, then was essentially looking for a place to attach to something, you know, instead of actually kind of like looking at it being like, oh, you know what, you should, you [00:29:49] know, feel sad about the fact that this happened or you should, you know, get back on, get back on Tinder and find a new connection, or you should whatever, right? Like, you know, and that kind of returning it back to a place of action, even [00:30:04] if an action is kind of a non-action, of like, just sitting with it or whatever, right? You know, that's always kind of a super helpful thing for me as well. So. ARIANA: Yeah, I mean, I think, I keep returning to how care for the self, like caring for yourself is [00:30:19] like, just obviously foundational to everything— ANDREW: Yeah. ARIANA: But like, when it comes to managing and navigating, you know, nonmonogamy and polyamory, it's like, I've [00:30:34] found for myself, I'm like, oh, it's like even more important than ever before that I'm caring for myself. And that I'm in relationship with myself. You know, and like, prioritizing that because it's so easy [00:30:49] to get kind of like get stuck, like you were saying, you know, or just like-- It's so easy to not know how to move forward. Right? ANDREW: Yeah. ARIANA: And [00:31:04] I think and that's true for most things that involve other people, because there's like, there's no control there, you know? ANDREW: Yeah. ARIANA: Which is like a cause of panic for me on a daily basis [laughing]— ANDREW: [laughing] ARIANA: But is actually totally normal and healthy and good, you know. [00:31:19] ANDREW: Yeah. ARIANA: Learning how to be like, okay, so I can't do anything about them. How can I care for myself in this moment? ANDREW: For sure, right? ARIANA: How do I want to move forward? Like I think that it's like, always comes back to the question, like, what do you want? You know? And [00:31:36] I think if that's not like one of the guiding questions, it gets easy to be like, okay, what does the other person want? You know, what do they need? How can I, how can I, how can I change to be that for them? You know? And [00:31:51] then, like, that's a whole mess in itself. ANDREW: And I think that, you know, as you kind of pointed at, that's so true of everywhere in life. You know, it's true of our family relationships. It's probably true in people's careers and [00:32:06] you know, in a variety of things, you know? And even, you know, I mean I haven't even had a job for working for anybody else since 1998 now. You know, it's been a while that I've been self-employed and you know, for like the last 16 years, I've [00:32:21] been reading cards and running my store and stuff like that. And even like in the last six months I had to remind myself. I'm like, hey Andrew, it's your store and your work, you are actually freer than almost anybody— ARIANA: Yes, yes. ANDREW: [00:32:36] Like, it doesn't get freer than your, then your position, and still actually working. So if you're not digging this thing, stop getting stuck in that and start thinking about, what is it you would rather do instead, right? [00:32:51] Or how would you rather it be instead? You know? And yeah, it's a, it's always, it's always the possibility that sort of like loss of the center of whatever control there is or whatever power there is externally [00:33:07] somewhere, where, you know? And I think that in poly and in everywhere, returning that back to the center is so fruitful, right? ARIANA: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. ANDREW: You know, so, I'm really curious, if, have [00:33:22] you gone searching for like the poly astrological element? Like is there, is there a thing that you, or kinds of things that you see, where you're like, oh, yeah, yeah, I bet you this person's that way. ARIANA: It's so funny. [00:33:37] I mean, I've kind of thought about it. I'm always like, super hesitant to, I mean like, formulate astrological signatures— ANDREW: Sure. ARIANA: For like, people's lifestyles and choices, but [00:33:53] I'll speak, I'll speak for my own self. I remember like a couple years ago, looking at my chart, and being like, you know, I'm really surprised that I'm not more, you know, like nonmonogamous. Like I remember looking and being like, [00:34:08] and so, you know, obviously in retrospect, it's really funny to be like, okay. I'm not, you know, like I was right, like I did pick up on that, just like certain things in my chart that like, made me think about my relationship to [00:34:23] relationships, and what kinds of relationships would actually nourish me versus the kinds that I've, you know, been conditioned to think or expect from myself, right? And so I think for myself that just involves having a [00:34:38] lot of air and I also have a lot of water, right? So it's like, I think that's a, that really speaks to how I'm like, I'm, that's why I like the term poly-capable, [00:34:53] you know, or so, like, so I'm open, I'm not, I have like all this airiness, and all this like, yes, possibility, and like, excitement, and experiences, and, what's the word, like perspective, you know, like perspectives [00:35:08] broken open and unlearning and learning new ways. Then I have all this water where I'm like, I want that to be in service of, like, deep lasting connections, right? And so for myself, that's how, that's how I've seen it show up but [00:35:23] no, to answer it in general, I don't have like an astrological signature where I'm like, oh, this person is probably, are not monogamous or poly or like has several relationships, because it's just, my relationship astrology isn't [00:35:38] like that. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. That's totally fair. I find that, you know, my questions around a lot of this stuff, I feel like they end up sort of going back to me. Like, I'm just going to ask some really unfair questions of, like astrologers— ARIANA: [laughing] ANDREW: So, [00:35:53] hey, hey, here's my, here's my like, I know it's not really this way, but I kind of wish it was, and I bet you think I'm just going to ask this question and put you on the spot for a minute. ARIANA: Underneath that is maybe, and I'm not saying that this is the case, but usually with people [00:36:08] is the question of like, tell me why I am the way that I am! [laughing] ANDREW: Right. Sure. ARIANA: [laughing] Is there a reason that this is happening? And maybe somehow inadvertently by asking this general question I'll have my very personal question answered. ANDREW: Yeah. Yeah. For sure. ARIANA: [laughing] ANDREW: [00:36:23] Yeah, I don't know. I've looked at my own chart in my own limited ways and I don't really have a sense either. So I think, I think it's, I think for me it's just, you know, so much air and fire and so [00:36:38] much, just like, you know, expansiveness and exploratoriness that I think that it just sort of inclines me in that kind of direction. ARIANA: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think looking at elements is like, [00:36:53] can be super informative. When we're looking at like, how we move through life, and what our needs are, and our like general sense. How we need to be able to move, right? Like air and fire needs to be able to be free— ANDREW: Sure. ARIANA: In like different ways [00:37:08] than earth and water. ANDREW: Yeah. No, for sure. I don't have any earth, so. ARIANA: [laughing] You said that in a way that's like, I'm fucked. [laughing] ANDREW: No, no, not at all. It's good. It's fine. No earth at [00:37:23] all and only one water element. So everything else is just air and fire. All the time. ARIANA: That's combustion. ANDREW: Yeah. I worked on it magically, so it's all good now, so. ARIANA: Good. ANDREW: So, [00:37:40] I guess one of the other things that I'm curious about this, for you, is like, you know, does poly fit into an identity or a sense [00:37:55] of, you know, activism, and sort of like, kind of, like we talked about deconditioning and I'm wondering if it goes a bit further to you, in sort of the sense of, is it, is it, is it, is it tied [00:38:10] to sort of a sense of activism or something like that for you? ARIANA: Like is it radical for me? ANDREW: Is it radical for you? ARIANA: Mm-hmm, absolutely. Absolutely. It's deeply intertwined with like, my political beliefs and values, as [00:38:25] everything in my life is, right? ANDREW: Yeah. ARIANA: So yeah, I-- A huge, huge reason why polyamory is a part of my life is because of my, like, rejection of whiteness, you know, and like the role [00:38:40] of whiteness in heteronormativity and patriarchy and like all these things that take joy, you know? ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ARIANA: And so, I'm always like, I'm a little skeptical with the word resistance, but it is like an [00:38:55] act of resistance for me, you know, and like, no, actually because, like I said before, like the only reason I wouldn't say yes to more pleasure and love, enjoying my life, is because of these constructs, you know, that are, that are made up, [00:39:10] and are also powerful, right? and like shape us and we are shaped by them. ANDREW: Yeah. ARIANA: And so it is absolutely about taking my personal and my political, which is like the same for me, power back, you [00:39:25] know? I mean like, there, so, yeah, like, so little when it comes to like, oppression, that I [00:39:40] like actually have any power control over right? Like I can't change the world or the snap of my fingers or whatever. ANDREW: Sure. ARIANA: So living my life in ways that are like, anti-oppressive, is really important. And [00:39:55] so it's really interesting because even like, when I was sitting with the question of like nonmonogamy and polyamory, a large part of my commitment to like, continuing to be curious about it, even when it felt like scary [00:40:10] or strange, or shameful, was a political commitment, you know, it's like, even if this isn't going to be right for me, I want to be able to be with the questions, you know? And I want to be able to not have fear [00:40:25] around it. Right? Like, and fear that's been imbued by my conditioning, religious and political, you know, and so yeah, that's a huge, huge piece of about it for me. ANDREW: Yeah. A [00:40:41] long time ago, for me, I discovered this guy, Terence McKenna Terence McKenna is like, psychedelic—was, he's dead now--was a psychedelic explorer like along the lines of Timothy [00:40:56] Leary and those people, and, but, you know, he was mostly into like mushrooms and other things and there was a line in this spoken word thing that he did, where he's talking about how taking mushrooms frees [00:41:11] you from the system, right? Takes you outside of those things and that it breaks what he calls the “three enemies of the people,” you know? And the enemies of the people are hegemony, monogamy, and monotony, [00:41:26] you know, and you know, hegemony being the way in which systems and culture and patriarchy and you know, all of those things seek to not just tell us what to do but to limit [00:41:41] the space in which we can think, you know, it's a very like 1984 kind of idea, right, in that regard, and I think that there's so much of what we come around, and you know, what I grew up in, and what most people grow up in, that, [00:41:56] that is, curtails the boundaries of where you're allowed to think or what you can think or what's, you know, and even to the point where it's like, you know, I mean, I think of my earlier explorations, it's like, I had no language around it. I just had desire. [00:42:11] And I couldn't even really understand--I understood it, you know, I don't want to diminish my awareness of it, but I didn't understand it as a possibility or as a way of life. I just understood it as a desire, right? ARIANA: Right, right. ANDREW: You [00:42:26] know, and then of course, like monogamy and the monotony of like a lot of capitalism and the way in which a lot of the world runs, you know, I mean, all of those things work to sort of push us away from making more radical choices [00:42:41] or waking up or you know, doing those kinds of things. So, yeah, I think it's very, it's very interesting, you know. Yeah. ARIANA: Yeah, I mean I [00:42:57] think that this, there's like this, I think this separation, between like activism and then like our quote unquote regular lives is an illusion in a lot of ways. I do think that there is a distinction between like [00:43:12] activist, you know, like, people who are committing their life to that work in a public way. Right? Like I'm not going to call myself an activist. And I think, you know, the word has all of its own like negative [00:43:27] connotations as well. But that like, that false separation between the political and the personal, you know, is really harmful, because it is so deeply intertwined. Right? And so, like even in [00:43:42] our conversations about love and romance and sex and money, you know, like all of these things are wrapped up into power and wrapped up into politics, right? And so for me, as like a [00:43:57] queer Boricua, it's one of the ways that I've been articulating and it's like, it's my duty, my responsibility, to be as liberated, [00:44:13] to use the word, as I can, right? And again, going back to that, like why would I say no to more pleasure and love and joy in my life, right? And so, it's like, I don't just see it as this, like, oh, yeah, of course, I want more of that but I see it as like, oh, it's my responsibility to my ancestors, [00:44:28] right? And to the life that I'm like, actually living now, to deconstruct these things within myself. You know and to be aware of, curious about, [00:44:43] and devoted to exploring the ways that the political and the personal is intertwined for me. And that's not only my responsibility to myself, that's my responsibility to my community, [00:44:58] you know? In like a literal sense, like people actually, community with, and in a metaphysical sense. Yeah. Yeah. ANDREW: I mean, I think I agree with that, and I've kind of felt the same way, you know, and [00:45:13] I think that, you know, not in a, not in a like, I feel like I've got it all figured out and I'm going to tell people how it ought to be kind of way. But like, it's why sharing [00:45:30] more openly around being poly, as you know, as a, as a, you know, as a kind of fitting into that conversation, to say, hey, look there are other ways, like I'm living another way, and I could, I could not be public [00:45:45] about it, it would make no difference on a day-to-day level with my you know, personal and romantic life, you know? ARIANA: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. ANDREW: But I could also share it in a public way, and that, you know, and share that [00:46:00] in this conversation with you that then creates that space for other people to think, engage, be exposed, find their own language, you know, or whatever, you know, or just be curious and then walk away, like it's all fine. [00:46:15] Right? But like— ARIANA: Yeah. ANDREW: You know, but just to sort of provide opportunities to see because I think that, for me, for so long, I kind of just thought that like my life was like everybody's life and [00:46:30] then at a certain point I was like, oh no, that's not actually true at all, you know? ARIANA: [laughing] ANDREW: And like, the more I have-- The more, over the last maybe six years since I started going to tarot conferences and sort of traveling a bit more again, you know, I was like, “oh [00:46:45] no, my life is not like many people's lives at all,” and not that, not that I need to be role model person, because that's not the point in the least, but that, you know, I have such different, you know-- I mean, poly, [00:47:00] I, you know, like, you know, a couple weeks ago, one of my longer-term partners, their partner and their partner's child came and hung out with me and my kids. And you know, we all spent the weekend hanging out together, and like, [00:47:15] just totally like, you know, experiences that people are like, I don't know, I don't even begin to understand it, and it's just this, like, the most natural and chill thing ever, right? You know, and being an Olocha, you know, and like all the things, you [00:47:30] know, doing what I do for a living, like, there's just so many ways in which it's so different, right? And I think that, kind of like, just floating that out there as a thing to inspire people who want, who are, who [00:47:45] are waiting for inspiration or looking for inspiration, you know, and allowing that to kind of be part of that, I think is really important. So. ARIANA: Yeah. I mean what I'm hearing, and that is, it just sounds like such [00:48:00] a foundational piece of our work in general as readers, you know, and as like spiritual guides, is this, this, I think like sometimes opening of portals, but more so like, holding of portals, you know, and being like, this is [00:48:15] here, if you, if you want it, and like drawing people's attention, you know, in their own, in their own search for it, you know? And so, like, it's, I don't know, I, [00:48:33] I think that's like, such what you're describing is such a huge cornerstone of my life because I know that I've always been eternally grateful to the resources that exposed me to the language that I didn't have for what I was already feeling or [00:48:48] experiencing or wanting, you know? ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ARIANA: And that those things changed my life. And so I've been, I've been deeper in the practice of embodying that myself, like with Saltwater Stars, like, [00:49:03] showing up more as myself, you know, and being more transparent about my queerness and about my, just like the way that my life is, and it's interesting because I-- That's [00:49:18] like a more recent thing because I've never, I guess I didn't really have like much of a platform, right? Like when you don't have much of a platform, you're not like, oh, I should tell everyone, you know, you're like, no one cares. So now more [00:49:33] recently I'm like, oh, this is actually like, having these conversations and being transparent about myself, I'm at a position in my life where that can be helpful to others in ways that, you know, it might not have been before, but also helpful [00:49:48] to me, you know? Also like, the whole, like, taking up space thing, as someone who is at the intersection of identities that I'm at, you know, is [00:50:03] something that I've like, underestimated the power and importance of, and I'm now like, coming into more of a, like I said, a deeper practice and understanding of how important that is, you know, and doing that whole thing that I'm sure you're familiar [00:50:18] with, where you're like, “Oh, if I had, like, known me when I was younger, you know, how much would be different?” blah blah blah. ANDREW: Sure. Yeah. ARIANA: Yeah, so I've been thinking about that a lot, and I think it's this interesting like, [00:50:34] juxtaposition for me, where I'm like a private person more naturally, but then I'm also like so deeply committed to community and to communal revolution, you know, and so the ways that I'll like stretch myself, that I [00:50:49] like, hadn't considered before, because of the ways that my politics grow and change. You know? ANDREW: Yeah, I think, and I think that learning how to take up space is such a, and not even take up space, how to take [00:51:04], take your space. You know, I think it's such a helpful thing, and I think that, you know, it's also not off topic for polyamory, right? Like, you know, I mean, like, I think that it's one of those things that crosses all those situations, you [00:51:19] know? How do we show up in our career that we take up space and can be seen, right? How do we show up in our relationships so that we can, you know, take up this or take our space and be seen, you know, and how does that change [00:51:34] the nature of the relationships that we have? Right? Because when you start being visible and showing up as being visible, then all of a sudden, the people, the people who can see you, see [00:51:49] something that's more real, and therefore that can be, you know, a kind of higher caliber of connection, you know, because there's a better alignment going there, right? You know, yeah. ARIANA: Yeah. I love that you bring that up. Because it's like, it's that relationship between vulnerability [00:52:04] and intimacy, you know, and so that's been like a huge thing for me recently. It's like, the more I allow myself to be vulnerable and to be seen, right, and to be visible, the more intimacy that [00:52:19] I actually have potential to access. Right? So like, sitting over here telling no one anything about my life and wondering why I'll lack like a depth of intimacy in my relationships, you know, like, being invisible in my relationships and like, feeling resentful that [00:52:34] I'm like, never, so I like, I had to go through that learning curve. I'm like, oh, actually that's my responsibility, to be like, you know, here I am, you know, and then if you can see me and if this, if my vulnerability does create intimacy with you, [00:52:49] great, and if it doesn't, now I know, instead of sitting here in the corner wondering feeling sorry for myself, you know. ANDREW: For sure. Yeah. Yeah. And I definitely, you know, I mean, for me, taking up space and sort of like pushing myself into [00:53:04] space was definitely a thing that was very uncomfortable around releasing the Orisha Tarot, you know, because, you know, I mean, because of, because I'm a white person from Toronto who practices this religion, [00:53:19] because of like a bunch of different things, you know, there's this very, like I was very, you know, aware, and you know, at times, sort of kind of immobilized by my awareness around those dynamics and my desire [00:53:34] not to, not to be messy about them, you know, and to try and find a good way through that stuff. And I think that, you know, it's complicated, because when you, when you don't feel like you can take [00:53:50] the space, you know, it's also like there's almost never anybody who can convince you, you know? ARIANA: Oh, yes. ANDREW: Like I talked to my elders and they're like, “Do it, it's going to be great.” And you know, I asked the Orishas, they're like, “Yeah, [00:54:05] you should do this,” and I'm like, and I talked to like, you know, artist friends and people of color. And like I had all these conversations and still, it was just like, but I just, you know, I'm just trying to figure out what that, like what that inner lock was, [00:54:20] right, you know? And it's now and then and then it came back to my mantra as well as like, well, just be brave dude. Just do the thing. ARIANA: [laughing] ANDREW: It'll work out well or whatever. It'll be what it is, you know. ARIANA: Mm-hmm, mmm-hmm. ANDREW: Yeah, I think [00:54:35] that, that's it's, there's a lot of ways in which showing up is complicated right? ARIANA: Oh, yeah. ANDREW: Not just around romance so, but. ARIANA: Yeah. Oh, yeah, and I'm glad you said it that way, because I think that it is often oversimplified. Especially like for people [00:54:50] who do, who do live outside of the dominant culture. ANDREW: Yeah. ARIANA: You know, it's like, no, it's not as like this for many, it is actually dangerous, you know, like there is so much risk involved, and [00:55:06] not just like, on an interpersonal level, but on a communal level, right? ANDREW: Sure. ARIANA: And so, I think that the oversimplification of it, that like often comes from whiteness, right? Because like, whiteness [00:55:21] is more comfortable. So, you know, it's like, oh, yeah, of course, like, you know, this is, not only is this my space, but that's also my space, and that's my space, and the, you know, and so I think that oversimplification of it dishonors [00:55:36] the amount of bravery it takes and also like diminishes the complexity of it. ANDREW: Yeah. ARIANA: You know and especially at these, like, intersections of spirituality and unconventional relationships and all [00:55:51] of those things. It's like, the complete, just, you decide to show up, just because you decide to be visible and be seen, doesn't make it any less complicated. ANDREW: For sure. ARIANA: You know? ANDREW: Yeah, and I think there's a, [00:56:06] I run across, you know, especially like sometimes in relationship to my, to my kids, with people who are, you know, running programs for them and stuff like that, you know? This notion of, like, you know, you [00:56:21] just, I mean even though my mantra is be brave, right? That's like a complex multi-level thing. That's not, that's not necessarily so much as like, you know, just do the thing and you'll be fine. It's [00:56:36] like, okay, be brave. What's the brave thing? Why am I resisting it? You know? Like on and on and on, there's like a whole deconstruction that, that goes beyond that and then, and then the mantra comes out once I've already processed all those things, and then I'm like, right now, there's nothing to do but [00:56:51] like press the button, make the phone call, say the thing, but there's this sort of notion that I run across a lot where it's like, you know, if you just persevere, if you just push, if you know, it's all, it's all kind of like a bunch of machismo and [00:57:06] it's-- In a certain way, I think, you know, where it's just like, yeah, but like I did this hard thing, so you can do this hard thing, and whatever, and it's like, maybe not, maybe it's the wrong hard thing. It's the wrong way. Maybe [00:57:21] this hard thing isn't even relevant. Like, you know, I think that there's so many, so many layers to that, that become very complicated and I think that there's a desire by many people that I see to [00:57:36] try and come to a point where it's just something simple like, you know, we'll just push through it and it'll be fine. It's like, maybe not. ARIANA: Like yeah, like have you heard of the scenarios where things don't end up [00:57:51] fine because that happens. ANDREW: Yeah. Exactly. ARIANA: I think that one of the things about like nonmonogamy and polyamory that I appreciate is that it like, at least for me, I feel like it expands my capacity for complexity. ANDREW: Sure. [00:58:06] ARIANA: Right? And like my ability be to be with the discomfort. ANDREW: Mmm-hmm. ARIANA: Right? So like you were saying, like that that period where, it's like, okay, so I know that I want like partnerships and intimacy, but there's that whole period where we're like, we're figuring [00:58:21] out if that's actually possible. ANDREW: Yeah. ARIANA: So like, being able to sit in those spaces and to continue choosing to be brave. ANDREW: Yeah. ARIANA: You know, it's like this may not work out, like I could very well get hurt, and like I most [00:58:36] likely will at some point, you know, if I continue in a relationship with this person. ANDREW: Sure. ARIANA: Whoever it is, that's going to happen and so, like coming to a point of acceptance with that, and like, being willing to be uncomfortable and being willing to, I think, [00:58:51] it just like really comes back to this vulnerability, you know, like, that's what-- It spans our capacity for like all the complexity and all the unknown, you know? And I think that it definitely, we definitely, like kind of semi [00:59:06] get trained to override that and override those times, you know, and like you're saying push through and be like, oh it'll be fine, you know, what, whatever, and so I think that the thing about polyamory is that you can't really do that because there are other people involved. ANDREW: Yeah. ARIANA: You know? [00:59:21] ANDREW: Yeah. I think too, like a lot of, a lot of my experience of polyamory is that there are a lot of feelings that in a, if [00:59:36] I was a monogamous person looking for a long-term relationship, would drive stuff in a given direction, you know, like, you know, I can, I can hang out with, you know, one of my partners and [00:59:51] then feel sad that they're leaving and miss them for days, you know, if I'm not going to see them, and that would drive, you know, the sort of relationship escalator stuff. You [01:00:06] know, if I was, if I was a monogamous type person. ARIANA: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. ANDREW: We'll see each other more, we'll do this, we'll, you know, this constantly looking to sort of almost resolve or placate those emotions. ARIANA: Right. Right. ANDREW: Versus come looking at those feelings and [01:00:21] going, it's a hundred percent great, like acceptable, fine, to miss somebody, to, you know, have these different kinds of feelings. ARIANA: Right. ANDREW: And I don't need to interpret them in other ways, [01:00:36] you know, like, you know, they can, they can just be what they are and I can notice them and acknowledge them and that could be the whole conversation about it too, which is something that's very different, right? ARIANA: Yeah, yeah. ANDREW: And I think there are lots of feelings around, you [01:00:51] know, anything from how people handle their feeling of desire to, you know, all these kinds of things, like I could feel the most intense desire for somebody and also just like, be friends with them and not have that be a thing either, [01:01:06] you know, like, there are ways in which we can handle sort of all these different kinds of feelings in a very different manner and I think that that's also a really interesting sort of situation around this. ARIANA: Yeah, like it [01:01:21] kind of sounds like talking about the relationship between our, like, polyamory changes our relationship to gratification. Right? And I think in the ways that like, monogamy is so much about that, possession, right, and that gratification, like having [01:01:36] access to that. ANDREW: Yeah. ARIANA: Like polyamory, like, breaks all of that. And so, then you have to have these like new and different ways of navigating those responses and those kind of like, it changes the, like the nature [01:01:51] or like the relationships of attachment, you know? Like how, like how we make meaning out of it and how we assign meaning to it and how we, how we, I think even like, don't, you know, [01:02:06] like, don't assign meaning to it, and don't do all of those things to allow there to still be space. Right? ANDREW: Yeah. ARIANA: I also, I need to go to the restroom very quick. ANDREW: No problem. Yes. ANDREW: [00:00:00] Well, I want to say thank you so much for being on the show and having this conversation. It has been even more delightful and insightful than I anticipated. So that [00:00:15] is wonderful. For people who want to go follow your work and be in your orbit and I hope that everybody does, where do they find you online? How do they, how do they follow what you're up to? ARIANA: Yeah, well, [00:00:30] so first of all, thank you so much. It's been like such a joy. I really enjoyed our conversation. Online www.saltwaterstars.com. On Instagram, it's Saltwater dot [00:00:45] Stars, and I'm now public on Twitter, SaltwaterStars underscore, and then I'm also on Facebook as Saltwater Stars. So there's like plenty of options. ANDREW: Perfect. ARIANA: Yeah, but it's all Saltwater Stars. ANDREW: That's great. Well, thank you so much [00:01:00] for being on. I think that yeah, I'm looking forward to hearing what people have to say about these conversations and stuff, because I think it's, I think it's such an interesting world view, and I think that, you know, I see more and more people [00:01:15] kind of drifting in this direction or exploring in this direction. So hopefully this will find its way to some of those people and be helpful in some way. ARIANA: Yeah. I hope so, too. Thank you so much Andrew. ANDREW: Thank you.
The Hermit's Lamp Podcast - A place for witches, hermits, mystics, healers, and seekers
The Stacking Skulls Crew (Aidan, Fabeku, and Andrew) are joined by Theresa Reed this week. In many ways this conversation circles around endings. They talk about Marie Kondo and letting go. The process of know when to change in life. And the ways our energy shifts what is going on depending on how we show up. Think about how much you've enjoyed the podcast and how many episodes you listened to, and consider if it is time to support the Patreon You can do so here. If you want more of this in your life you can subscribe by RSS , iTunes, Stitcher, or email. Thanks for joining the conversation. Please share the podcast to help us grow and change the world. Andrew You can book time with Andrew through his site here. ANDREW: Welcome to the Hermit's Lamp podcast and another episode with Stacking Skulls. I'm here today with Aidan and Fabeku, and joining us is Theresa Reed. So, you know, everybody probably knows who we are, but, Theresa, for those who don't know who you are, who are you? What are you about? THERESA: Hey guys, for those of you who are not familiar with me, my name is Theresa Reed, but I'm better known as the Tarot Lady. I am a professional tarot reader and I've been working in my industry for close to 30 years. And that's me in a nutshell. ANDREW: Awesome! So, the last episode dropped about three months or so ago. What's new? What's going on? What's changed? AIDAN: Hmm. I actually reopened the shop ... ANDREW: Yeah! AIDAN: After many months off, and that's going very well. Under the new model. It seems to be working well. That's pretty much it for me. It's been winter. Not a lot goes on except the cold. ANDREW: Right. And a lot of snow apparently this winter. AIDAN: We did get the blizzard, which, thankfully all of our neighbors tell us happens every seven to 15 years, cause otherwise our 500-foot-long driveway would have been perhaps not the choice we would have made! [laughing] We were only trapped for like two weeks. ANDREW: Yeah. That's fair. Well, you don't have to get your kettlebells off the mat, then. You can just shovel snow every day? AIDAN: I really don't do that. That's why we were trapped for two weeks. We saw it coming and went shopping and stocked up the house, and said, "Fuck it. We'll leave when we're done, when it's done." [laughing] ANDREW: Excellent. Nice. That's awesome. Well, how about you, Fabeku? What's new in your world? FABEKU: Yeah, what's new? Ran a few classes, finally wrapped the super long divination course that I've been doing since the summer, doing a thing now on some hyper sigil stuff which has been fun and kind of intense. Managed to survive the holidays, thank God. That was great! Yeah, writing like crazy, just writing like crazy, for some reason. I'm not sleeping a lot, which is fantastic! And so, I'm taking advantage of the long evenings and turning out piles and piles of words for a few book projects. So, it's fun. It's cool. ANDREW: And how about you, Theresa? What's the start of your year brought you? What's going on with you these days? THERESA: Just busy with work but also, I have two books coming out this year, and actually today, I just got the pdf version, and so they want me to go over everything and check everything and doublecheck it, and make sure every i is dotted and t is crossed, and recently I saw the cover of my third book, which is coming out in November. So I'm in the phase right now of handling all my regular work, and also with these two books coming out, starting to do all the proofreading to make sure things are right. FABEKU: That's a lot. THERESA: Yeah, it's exciting. ANDREW: It's a lot of work, right? THERESA: Oh my god. But I like the editing part better than the writing part. FABEKU: Really? THERESA: Isn't that sad? FABEKU: Well, no, it's fascinating. I think it's ... THERESA: I love to read, write, and I love to spill out all my ideas, but I think it's because I have those three planets in Virgo. Going back and editing gives me a real special jolly. FABEKU: Wow. That's cool. AIDAN: I kind of got that with Six Ways. I had a blast going, kind of taking in all the information I got from the various first readers and my folks to kind of dive in and tighten it up. That was a pleasure. ANDREW: Yeah. I don't dig the editing at all. FABEKU: Yeah, me neither. [laughing] FABEKU: Totally hate it! ANDREW: Yeah, it's interesting. When I did, I wrote the book for the Orisha Tarot, I sat down and just, I wrote the book just straight through, just piled it all out and whatever. And because there was some changes around the timeline and I had to deliver it a little bit earlier, I was like, all right, I'm just sending it, I'm not even going to reread it, I'm just going to send it to you this way. Cause it was already a contract, right? So it wasn't like I was trying to get the deal. I already had the deal, but I just didn't have the time to finish everything up for their timeline that they had moved it to, and still sort of like sit and really reedit it, and I was like, doesn't make sense to re-edit part of it or all of it or, you know. So I just sent it in. And, yeah, it was, most of ... The thing was, “please just go through and fix the typos.” [laughs] And I was like, "Sure!" [laughing] And then there were a couple other, very few comments, but then the editing was almost nonexistent for it, so. FABEKU: That's great. THERESA: Wow. But they liked it, so you know, obviously you're a good writer. ANDREW: Yeah, it just kind of. By the time I get to writing something I usually have thought about it a ton. And then it mostly just kind of emerges pretty intact, you know? And sometimes I need to adjust stuff, mature things. Most of what they wanted me to change or edit goes back to, the biggest challenge for me around writing historically, which is: why write 50 words when 10 words will do? But the reality is, those 10 words do when you know what the subject is, but they don't actually do it for everybody else. So learning to sort of expand everything into sort of a more, yeah, a more thorough explanation, so you kind of use a lot more words for it, that's been one thing. And the edits that came back for it were kind of, "You might know what this is, and I might know what this is, but there are lots of people who are going to read this who don't, who won't understand. So add a couple of paragraphs explaining this and this and this, and stuff." So. FABEKU: I always think it's an interesting thing when you're communicating stuff to people--so, my version of that is, in this hyper sigil class that I'm doing now, there were things that to me were super obvious, and so I essentially said, "Hey, do this and do this, and go have at it," right? And then people were like, "Wait, fuck, what? What about this, and what about this, and what does that mean? and can I do this? should I do this? should I not do this?" And I was literally like, "What the fuck is happening? Just do it!" And when I realized it was like, oh, right, okay, so all of the shit that in my head was super obvious, apparently I need to circle back and kind of spell out in way more detail than I thought. So it was kind of an interesting experience for everyone involved. Yeah. [laughing] ANDREW: Yeah. For sure. AIDAN: This is why the lifer magicians shouldn't probably be the bounce-offs on whether you're coherent for anybody else, right? [laughing] I was like, dude, got it, boom! [incoherent laughing] AIDAN: Fabeku comes back around like, "Why is everyone confused?" I'm like, “uh, oh, cause they haven't been doing this for 30 years? I don't know!” [laughing] ANDREW: Yeah. FABEKU: Yup. THERESA: And words have power, but that power doesn't always transmit to everyone the same way. You know years ago when I used to teach astrology, it all starts out fun. But then you start getting into the math, which you know is another interesting ... I think math is very magical. And everyone, all the tears came. All the tears came. People don't get it. And so, explaining astrology to laymen is actually, it's very artful, it's very hard to do. FABEKU: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: Yeah. I think teaching stuff is complicated. Right? And I think that, you know, when … A couple years ago I was in Portland and I taught this class on calling in the person-who-was-getting-the-readings' guardian angel, to feed into the reading process, right? And, you know, in teaching something like that, there's the words, right, which is one part of it. You know? It's like try this, do this, think about it this way, but then, like you say, it's also how is everyone receiving that, what's going on? And a whole bunch of people came up to me after the workshop and basically said, "I've never experienced anything like that before in my life, you know, and I've been doing my own practice," or whatever, and the secret was in that case that essentially I expanded my energy to encompass everybody in the room, and I was modulating everything that was going on, to some degree with everybody there, right? And like, seeing what felt wonky in the space so I need to go over and talk to that person, or maybe I just needed to like, put a little extra energy there for them, and you know, there's so many layers to transmitting something, right? That go well beyond book-learning and words and you know, straightforward things like into another level, right? So. FABEKU: You know, we just had this conversation in the hyper sigil space this week or last week or whatever it was. Somebody was talking about an experience that they have. So I call, instead of calls, I call them live transmissions, cause I do that, cause for me, that's what they are, it's not some marketing shtick, but you know, they were talking about experiences they had listening to the transmission, and I said, "listen, like, I call these transmissions for a reason." Like, the delivery of information is actually the smallest reason why we're on the phone at the same time doing this. There's a million other ways I could deliver information. I don't really give a shit so much how it happens, but it is that kind of energetic maintenance of the space, of creating currents that people wade into and then you navigate their experience with the current with them while delivering the information and for me that's 90 percent of it, the information, I mean, fuck, I could send out a pdf, I mean it's, you know, who cares about the delivery of the information? In some ways. I think, to me, the real key, and I think the thing that, like you said, give people that experience, is that current, and to create it, and kind of lead people skillfully into it and out of it and you know, yeah, that's the whole thing, for me. THERESA: Do you guys feel when you teach that you're doing it from an altered space? FABEKU: Yes. AIDAN: Yeah, totally. FABEKU: Almost every time. Like as soon as I kind of dial in, sit down, like I'll start to sweat. As it goes on, by the time I'm done, like I feel like I ran a marathon. And that's not a thing that I do. [laughter] ANDREW: Yeah, for sure. AIDAN: That's a definite thing, and it's interesting. I got an invite this morning to teach at 2020, and that was one of the really odd things, was remembering live teaching, cause I haven't done that since the 90s, and that's kind of a really strange concept to think about revisiting after 25 years. It's like, okay let's wander into a conference space, and do my thing. Cause to me it's always a super altered state, it's not subtle. And that's a, it's a very . . . It is an odd thing. ANDREW: And for me it's the same doing readings as well, you know. It's the reason I don't dig asynchronous reading processes that much, is I find that the energy's harder to manage . . . THERESA: Really?! ANDREW: Yeah. It's way easier for me to sit with somebody and just go anywhere, do anything, whatever needs to happen, but like, to do readings and ... You know, for a while I've been offering these channeled readings, where I channel one of my guides and stuff, and I'm actually going to stop, because channeling without the person being synced in somehow just wears me out. It's really kind of ... So like a 15-minute session of doing that like, and recording it and sending it to somebody, is like ten times more fatiguing than channeling for an hour with the person sitting here. So. THERESA: See for me, when it comes to email readings, energy is energy. You know and I always like to say I'm an energy reader, so it's the same energy that I'm tapping into, it doesn't matter if the person's sitting there and with me. I prefer when I'm doing, I prefer the phone readings, because I really feel like we're directly connecting with each other. But the email readings work just as good, the only difference is I think sometimes when people send information via email, they're not completely tuned in. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. THERESA: You know, and so you have to, maybe this is why you feel double the work, is you're having to like, you will have to do double the work, because maybe they'll just send a vague question or whatnot, so it's different. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. Yeah, maybe it's so. THERESA: Yeah, I don't know. AIDAN: It's interesting. When I think about doing the, you know like in the Six Ways Facebook group, the best thing I did was I decided to start shooting video, just cause it seemed like it would be an easier way than writing everything? And what I find is that that's the . . . it's way easier for me to be talking and transmit kind of clearly is writing. And, like we're doing this on Zoom, and I think if I get around to starting the online classes I'll do them on Zoom for the same reason. It's okay that not everybody will be present but if I've got a body of people present that I can be directly feeding with, it'll work better. THERESA: My problem with the typing is, my arthritis. I mean that's the biggest problem. I find it's more like, it's labor intensive for my hands, it's not the transmission of the energy. You know when you're just talking and teaching like that, you're not using that same physical processes as you're doing with your hands . . . So I think that's where I find it to be harder. AIDAN: Right. I think that for me it's just that I can't type very well. [laughing] ANDREW: That's fair. That's totally fair. I'm actually going back to writing, a series of blog posts and stuff. FABEKU: Oh, cool. ANDREW: I feel like I haven't typed much for a long time. In terms of doing that kind of work. But I feel like--for two reasons, I like to make everything accessible, so I like to get transcriptions of stuff done, like this podcast will be transcribed, and that's a time-consuming process that comes with its own expense, and two, I feel like I'm planning on getting a book proposal in over the winter, and I sort of slide more into that writing space. And when I'm already in that writing space, then it's easy to like, you know, write for a couple of hours, grab a coffee, change gears, and then write something else for an hour, for me, so I can kind of just stay in that space, whereas the recording transmissions and stuff like that, you know, since the separation and divorce that happened in the fall and winter, with my new schedule with the kids and stuff like that, it's a lot harder for me to find a time that's actually quiet to sit down and record something, it's not nearly as simple as it used to--my schedule used to be a lot more flexible, so. Now it's like I can sit and write just fine, and they can be doing whatever in the house, it's not a big deal to me, but to record and then have them, you know, their shenanigans in the background, it gets a little complicated, so. FABEKU: Yeah, for sure. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. And I guess that's been the big change for me, right? You know, my relationship of 21 years ended, I think we talked about it some in the fall podcast . . . AIDAN: Yeah, we did. ANDREW: Yeah, and mid-December, my ex moved out, and so I've had sort of almost two months now, I guess, or a month and a half of settling into what it's like to be independent half the time and with the kids half the time and you know, kind of going through this process of going through everything that I own and reassessing it, and seeing what do I want to keep, what's important, what's not important, and, you know, kind of extending that further out into like lots of things, I'm kind of reevaluating where I'm putting my time on kind of every front right now and trying to see what feels like it makes sense to me or doesn't make sense to me, you know? I had a great time watching that Tidying Up show with Marie Kondo. You know? Me and the kids and one of my partners watched it, and you know, it's like, that notion of what's exciting and what's not has continued to kind of fuel a bunch of decisions in different directions. Like looking at my work life and thinking about what am I, what am I really really inspired by? And what feels either burdensome or kind of to make it even more to the point, if the thing that I want from it is not a thing that it can give me, you know, there's kind of like an incoherence of the agenda, you know? And where I'm recognizing those shifting agendas kind of going along, I'm not going to get that from this, so I really ought to reconsider my investment in this. If that's not going to happen, what's the value to me then, you know? or is there a value to me then? You know? So. Yeah. So it's a lot of pruning going on, a lot of throwing out stuff around the space and sifting back through a bunch of stuff. Yeah. AIDAN: Yeah, that's definitely been going on over here too. ANDREW: Yeah. AIDAN: That was what led to the change in the shop, cause that process just clipped a ton of the work that I didn't like around the shop, it's just gone now. And then that's kind of feeding in. Like the shop itself, which as y'all know is a tiny space, is just way less busy. There's a lot less in here now. A lot of like, who are the helper spirits that are actually helpers? And who are the hangers on that are sometimes helpful but not really, not paying freight, and let's cut ties there and simplify it. It's definitely the season for it, I think. ANDREW: Yeah. FABEKU: Yeah, that's been the same thing here. I mean on all fronts. The work front, you know, there's been stuff I've been contemplating for six months, nine months, longer. And kind of finally brought some of that together. Like this thing that I used to dig? I don't dig it as much anymore. So I'm not going to do it. And this thing that I still kind of dig, I'm going to change it, so I can dig it more than I do at the moment. AIDAN: Yeah! FABEKU: You know, on the personal front, there was a long relationship I was in that was kind of agonizing over longer than I needed to, and end of the year, it was like, yeah, no, this doesn't make any sense any more. Like you said, that--I like that language, Andrew--the incoherence of agenda, cause it was like, this is never going to fucking shake out the way I want it to shake out, no matter what the fuck I do, it just doesn't make any sense, and you know, at some point it was interesting and thinking, about the mundane stuff I could do, the magical stuff, and it's like, why? it's just, what the fuck, it doesn't make any sense, just pack it up and move on. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. FABEKU: You know? I don't mean it just in the context of the relationship but with a lot of things, you know? And I think for me it feels like a time when it's kind of important to reduce, to pretty radically reduce the noise, to amp the signal even more than it has been. It seems like, I don't know, kind of midway through last year I started to realize there's--not even more noise--but there's just more shit in the field to manage. And I just don't want to do that. SOMEBODY: Yeah. FABEKU: I just don't want to do it. AIDAN: Yeah. FABEKU: Let's get the few things that are solid signal and crystal clear and right fucking on and amp the shit out of that, and the rest of it? I'm just not interested in it. I'm just not into it at all at this point. THERESA: I've been doing a major decluttering too, so I watched that same Tidying Up thing. And, you know, we have a real problem with clutter around here. My husband's an artist, first of all, and you know, I know how artists are, and you guys know how artists are. [laughter] THERESA: Artists collect a lot of stuff, and we have a lot of things, and this is a really big house. So, it got filled. You know the more we took over the house, the more he found things to fill. So we went through stuff and we're still going through stuff, and you know, my big problem is my books issues. ANDREW: [laughing] There are only about 30, right? THERESA: Yeah well, that's not going to happen, guys! [helpless laughter] THERESA: Cause you know, most of the books are stuff that I use. The thing that I have to go through, though, you know, right now, the clothes are done, I'm not a big clothes person, I'm not a big shoe person, I'm not one of those chicks, I have very few shoes, I don't care about shoes. You know I used to have a lot of purses, I don't care about that. I was hoarding lipstick--you know, this is my new lipstick, guys! FABEKU: It looks fantastic! THERESA: Thank you! [chuckling] THERESA: But also, my books and, you know, cooking gadgets, so, slowly little by little we've gone through things and, you know, the biggest thing we have left to do is the books. And Terry right now is upstairs and tearing through the cooking things, which is kind of horrifying me, because he doesn't know exactly what I use to create that magic in the kitchen, but, I'm just like, you know what, I don't have the time to do all this decluttering, go declutter it. But it's also making us a lot more mindful about the reasons we keep on holding on to our clutter. So we've had long discussions about that, and we've come to the determination, it's because we both grew up poor. There's that tendency then to want to hold onto things because it's the fear that you're going to need it or you may not have it again. So that whole way of growing up, it really does then create that energy where you hold on for dear life and then nothing else can get in that's worthwhile. So why am I holding onto this stupid thing, this Hello Kitty spatula that's too small to even turn over an egg? Why? It's got to go! It's not serving the purpose. FABEKU: Yeah, and for me I get that probably the most with the books, right? Because, you know, in the past I managed to scrape together cash, get a couple books, and then when I was broke as fuck, had to sell the books, and now that I've got them again, it's like, "I'm never getting rid of these books," which of course isn't the smartest thing. But it's exactly that thing. Like I remember having to box up, you know, 12 boxes of books to take ‘em to Half Price Books and they give you ten fucking dollars, you know, you have grocery money . . . THERESA: Yep. FABEKU: And it's like yeah, I'm never doing that again. So for me now, I've got thousands of books, which is madness, but, yeah, I think there is something to that, I think that that experience of either not being able to get it, or not knowing if you'd be able to get it again, I think for me anyway, it does, it creates a thing of wanting to hold onto shit way longer than makes sense. THERESA: Yep. FABEKU: … is the case, for sure. ANDREW: I really feel this intense impulse that I want to make things, versus own things. FABEKU: Mm. ANDREW: If that makes sense? You know? Books have a way of creeping back in, you know, partly because people give me a lot of books, because of the store, because I'm friends with them, and my friends publish books and that's fantastic, and I love looking at what my friends are doing, and that kind of stuff, but like, even I'm looking at the books that are on the shelf in the reading room here. I don't even know like, other than maybe two or three of them, I don't even know the last time I opened any of them. THERESA: Wow. ANDREW: Like it's been a long time, right? And you know, somebody was ... having this conversation about having tarot books and being a tarot reader, and whatever, and I'm like ... I don't, I mean, I read my friends' books, cause they're my friends and they wrote them, but I don't really read books on tarot any more. You know? Not because they're not good and not because maybe I couldn't learn stuff, but you know, I was, I listen to this podcast called The Moment with this guy Brian Koppelman, he makes movies. And there's some really great ones. The ones with Seth Godin are really interesting. And he has one with Salmon Rushdie. Which is fascinating. But one of the things that he talks about is how, when he drops into a project, he doesn't want his ideas contaminated with other things. And because I'm sliding more and more into being creative, visually and with words and these things all the time, I don't really, I really want to express what I want to express, and that brings about this place where I don't really want to bring stuff in. Because it's easy to get in my head about it. It's easy to think too much. It's easy to be like, "oh, this person said this thing, what do I think about that, do I need to address it?" It's like, it just slows the process, it creates drag in the creative process for me, so I kind of move away from that. You know, most of what I learn about card reading I learn from, you know, just doing more and more readings all the time. Or sometimes hanging out and talking with people about card reading, more so than actually sitting and reading books about it and such, you know? FABEKU: Yeah. I think one of the-- THERESA: [simultaneously] Sometimes I like-- Oh, sorry. FABEKU: No, go ahead, Theresa. THERESA: I was just going to say, real briefly--sometimes though I do like looking at what other people write about tarot, because I 'll look at it and say, "well that's interesting." You know I'll probably discard it anyways, because I'm very stubborn about my methods . . . ANDREW: You? THERESA: [laughs] But I do like-- But I do sometimes like, just like, you know, looking and saying, "well, that's very interesting.” It's still not going to change the way I'm doing things, because I've been doing things for so long, but it might at least give me a little different perspective. Okay, Fabeku, sorry about that! FABEKU: No, no, you're fine. I think for me, one of the best things I did in my business, maybe six or eight years ago, I just stopped looking at all the business shit. I didn't . . . I haven't read a business book in six or seven years. I haven't read business blogs, I unsubscribed to everything, and again, it's not that I didn't give a shit, really, but I kind of didn't give a shit. And it was mostly because of that, that noise thing. You know, it's like I just, like you said, Andrew, I want to transmit my thing, like I don't want--not that there's anything wrong with anybody else's thing, I just don't want their signal mixed in with my signal. And I think the results of that, and the same has been true for me with magic, with divination, with everything--it feels like the more I reduce that noise, the clearer I can get to my signal and transmit it, and then I think, the better that is for everybody that's on the receiving end of it. You know, I think that--and people say, well, you know, do you miss, do you miss being up to date on what's going on? Not really. I mean and again, I'm sure there's brilliant stuff out there. it's not that I-- I'm not acting like it's all shit--I just--for me, I think it's the processing power that's required to read it and then still keep it isolated from what I'm doing. It's just too much. It just--I don't, I don't want to do it--I just would rather get down to whatever my thing is. Whatever that means. THERESA: See, Fabeku, you need my way of doing things. I'm just so fucking stubborn . . . [laughter] THERESA: It doesn't matter how brilliant it is! I'm still going to do things exactly the way I'm going to do things, and I've always been that way, and it's ridiculous. But again, I'll get the little information, I'll get the feedback, I'll look at it, and I still do everything exactly the fucking way I'm going to do it. FABEKU: Sounds familiar! [laughter] AIDAN: Hear ye, hear ye! THERESA: That's the key! ANDREW: You know I remember talking to Enrique Enriquez, and we were discussing this in one of the podcast episodes that I did with him I think, and we were talking about how we'll be reading something, and we'll just get to a sentence and be like, "Huh, I just need to think about that for a month now." You know? And so like--there's a reason--I haven't finished Six Ways yet! Because, I get through to a certain point, and then I hit an idea, and I'm like, "Huh. Huh." I just put it down and just sit for a while, and just like chew it over for a while, you know, and maybe it gets misplaced for a little bit after that, and then I find it again, I'm like, "Oh, I should really finish that book," and you know, it's, when you told me that my name was in there somewhere, I was like, I haven't even gotten to that yet! And it's like, you know, kind of halfway through the book or so, right? AIDAN: [laughing] ANDREW: And I'm just like, huh. And I'll get through it, but for me I like to digest things really thoroughly if I'm going to let them in, and I think that's part of it too, right? You know it's back to like my own thinking, and that kind of stuff and how much of that, not even willingness for that to be let in, but where there is stuff that's really thought-provoking, I only have so much space for that too, you know? AIDAN: Yeah. I have, you know, it's interesting, once you put out your book--I imagine, you've all done this, I think, so you have had this experience. All of a sudden you become a book guy who has done this thing. And so, I get a fair amount of like, review copies now, pdfs of books that are due to come out to see if I could write for them, and most of them I just have to tell them I can't, cause it's just not, I wouldn't know, or want, to read your book on goetia [laughing]. I wouldn't know how to review it if I did, cause I have no interest in that kind of spirit interaction. But like I've been really lucky to get two books, recently, one from Devin Hunter and one from Matt Auryn, that are really great, and part of the reason that they work for me is that their approach is really like a psychic clairvoyant take on witchcraft. So it's like witchcraft with the kind of traditional psychic components brought way to the forefront. Which are not my strong point. So it's one of those things that I can read and go like, “Oh, yeah, I can see how I could grab this practice here and use this to develop something that I don't have,” you know. And so they've both been really good for that. But in general, kind of reading within the field gets harder and harder for me as time goes on because I'm so stubborn that it's like, I'm reading and kind of just going, nah, nah, nah, or I've seen this so many times, it's an interesting balance. But ... THERESA: Can I just say this to you? It's not that . . . I know this sounds terrible, but I don't get my inspiration, you know, from reading tarot books. The inspiration that I get from life comes from way different sources. You know, I'm more likely not to get inspired by reading your tarot interpretations but by, you know, maybe listening to a Lil Wayne song. I get my inspiration from very very different places, so . . . AIDAN: Yep. THERESA: And I think it's because too, I mean every day I'm in tarot. I'm like in tarot and in astrology every day of my life. And so I do still like to read the books, but my creative inspiration rarely comes from that. It rarely comes from reading someone's tarot or astrology book. It's going to come from a very very different source. Cooking is one of my main ways . . . And watching cooking shows and cookbooks, I actually get a lot more inspiration from that. And one of the things I love about cooking--Cooking is very magical. You know I'm very superstitious about food. I won't eat food prepared by somebody I don't like. Food has to be prepared with intention. And what I love about the whole process of cooking, because in another lifetime I should have been a chef, is I love to cook because you're creating and then you destroy it immediately! AIDAN: Yeah. THERESA: It's gone. Boom! It's done. I mean it was there. You know that the remnants are still there because it's showing up either in your waistline, or the indigestion, or the pleasure that you're feeling, but it's gone. It's all gone. I mean, food is magic. FABEKU: It is magic. It always reminds me--first of all, I agree about the source of inspiration. To me, art has been a bigger inspiration on my magic than magic stuff has. AIDAN: Absolutely. FABEKU: Cooking has been a bigger inspiration on my business than business shit ever has. The ... all of that stuff. Cooking, and I remember there was one time I was eating this really fantastic meal at a restaurant that did amazing food. It was the place you and I ate at, Theresa. THERESA: Mm-hmm. FABEKU: [00:33:33] When they, when they brought the food out, as I was eating it, I had that moment where it felt like, you know, when you see the mandalas that the Buddhists create, right? THERESA: Yes! FABEKU: They spend fucking forever making these things and they're amazing and they're beautiful and you see them and it's this experience of awe and they're gone-- THERESA: Yes! FABEKU: You know, they just they just wipe them out in a moment and it's like this is what this feels like. it was--and it felt like taking in all of that. Like you said, the creation of it, the attention to detail, the care, the creativity, the magic, and then making that a part of you, and literally it's gone in minutes. It's . . . THERESA: Yeah! FABEKU: It, to me, that's the kind of thing that that just wows me every time and it does, it doesn't have . . . shit, I don't care whether it's an expensive meal, it doesn't matter about that at all. It's just that thing of something that's been amazingly created and you know that they spent all day in the kitchen prepping for that and literally in a matter of minutes the plate's empty. THERESA: Uh-huh. FABEKU: It's, it's phenomenal. AIDAN: Yeah. THERESA: That's like true magic. I mean when I go to when I go to Portland every year there's a restaurant called Castagna that I go to. They now know me because they know I'm nuts about their rolls. and they serve weird stuff. I mean, but it is meticulously prepared and it comes out and I mean I grew up Catholic, so when you eat it, it's like communion. You're taking it into your body, the soul of that chef, and their creativity, and there is nothing more magical than that. AIDAN: Well, I think that that also sinks into another kind of concept that ties into some of Fabeku and I's experiences recently, because we've both been playing [00:35:03] with hyper sigil work. Is that . . . that element of like, you're doing this for right now? And then you're going to do the next thing and the next thing and the next thing. I think is missing from a lot of people's approach to magical arts, that they're like, they're somehow want to use this kind of technology of radical change to produce a static state that will always work for them, is what comes to mind, thinking of that, which has really never been my take. It's like, no, I'm just walking, right? And I'm going to choose where I go. I'm going to . . . but I'm not walking down the street to then stop at that house and then live in that house forever. I'm just walking and sometimes it's easy and sometimes it's hard and sometimes it's snowing, right? but it's very much like that food concept that you bring up, Theresa, and I like that, because it is, it's like, there's not, it's not working to an . . . a permanent end point and I think that all the really cool stuff is like that. For a lot of it, you know. THERESA: Well, a lot of people think they're going to get a permanent result from magic. Same like from a tarot reading, that it's going to be a guarantee of your future and there's no guarantees. I mean, I always say you can have a perfectly great astrology chart and be a complete schmuck. You can get a great reading and you can decide to make different decisions that change and alter what's coming. And when it comes to magic, you can do all the magic in the world, but nothing's going to be permanent, nothing's guaranteed. [00:36:33] And, so again, it's very much like eating. You make something, you make a beautiful ... you put all of your intention and your energy into it, then you've got to like, destroy it and forget about it and see what happens and keep that kind of an attitude about it. AIDAN: Right, or you go on the three-week nothing but dark chocolate binge and you discover you don't feel great at the end of that. THERESA: Well, I do! AIDAN: Right? THERESA: I have a dark chocolate emergency stash! [laughter] THERESA: We have dark chocolate every day and we always feel good. [laughter] ANDREW: For me, it reminds me-- FABEKU: Yeah, go ahead, Andrew. ANDREW: Go ahead, Fabeku. FABEKU: No, you're good. Go for it. ANDREW: Okay. Reminds me, you know, one of my teachers when I was in the Aurum Solis, we had this big conversation about students and neophytes and people coming in and you know, how people, why people drop out, why people don't follow through, you know, and all this kind of stuff. and you know, I think that some of the reasons are for the reasons we talked about here. I think there's a variety of reasons, you know, people are, people are in the wrong place, people need something other than the actual longer term arc of it, you know, many reasons that aren't even to do with failure, for why people drop out or don't pursue or stick with these things over time, but I think that one of the things that I realized about myself in that conversation was that at some point along the way I had decided that I was I [00:38:03] ... I was committed to being ready to give up who I thought I was . . . FABEKU: Mm. ANDREW: In order to discover who I was now. THERESA: Mm. ANDREW: You know? And somewhere, and I don't even know where it started, this sort of notion of an anchored identity or an anchored sort of concrete sense of self or practice or other things. I just . . . you know, I just decided that that wasn't useful. And so I stopped thinking that way and started noticing those moments where that slip in the gears or that incongruousness emerged, you know? And then later on when I, you know, when my godmother was still alive, we'd have these conversations, you know, about something or about my reading for a year or whatever. You know, I just remember there were a number of times where she started laughing, she goes, “Well, it's a good thing you have a flexible ego, Andrew, because blah blah blah” whatever. I'm like, “Oh, yeah, all right, [38:59 or so: for change, for change?],” you know? But I think that that stuff is so important and so hard to come by and even at that, you know, I mean, I don't think that it's always easy, right? Like, you know, I mean, I went through a divorce last year. It went well as far as those things go, it went really well and I've changed my ideas around it or I have emerged sort of more clearly who I am on the other side of that. But the . . . all those things take time as well. Right? So even at that, there's no magic to something to be like, all [00:39:33] right, boom, you know, done, changed, whatever, right? Because really if I had that kind of magic, I would, I'd be summoning those goetic spirits and having them finish sorting all the stuff at the house that I'm still trying to sort through. You know? [laughter] AIDAN: Totally. ANDREW: How did Solomon make that happen? How did he get them all working? Right? That's my problem. AIDAN: [39:52 Reblendo? What?] ANDREW: I can get one of them working. But all of them at the same time? I never got that trick down! [laughter] FABEKU: I think for me what . . . And what you said makes total sense to me, that, that, that fixed sense of identity to me feels really problematic as a human being, and it feels even more problematic as a magician. You know, I think that it feels like, in a lot of ways to me, at this point, magic is just kind of just perpetually riding a wave like Theresa said, there's no, there's a fixed point. There's no done. There's no finished static, got it, nailed down. It's . . . this is what the wave looks like now and now here's what the wave looks like and maybe it's fast or slow or big or it's crashing or whatever the fuck it's doing. But to me, it feels like the most effective thing I can do as a magician is learn how to ride the wave more skillfully and learn how to direct it in, you know, whatever ways that we can. And yeah, I think if you expect something fixed and static, whether that's an experience of yourself or an experience of the world, magic will kick you in the fucking teeth with that stuff. THERESA: And also, if you look at this from a scientific perspective, not that I'm some scientist, I'm not, but . . . ANDREW: Please [00:41:03] ignore the lab coat. [laughter] THERESA: But think about this, you know, everything is changing constantly. We get a new body every seven years. Our cells are constantly changing. So we're not looking the same as we did seven years ago. I mean, I wish I had the same body I had 20 years ago. I don't! Because every seven years your cells are completely regenerating. So when you think about that from a magical perspective, there is no way in hell, you're going to get like some kind of a permanent thing, because everything is always evolving. And my friend Joe one time said to me, and it really pissed me off when I was younger. He said, “You know, the only thing, kid, that's unchanging, is change.” And I'm like, “What the fuck kind of logic is that?” It took a while for that to sink in, but it makes sense. Nothing is going to be an absolute permanent thing. And so when you're doing magic, like you said, Fabeku, it's more about riding with that energy, working with the energy. You can still enact change, but you still have to find a way to move with it. AIDAN: Right. FABEKU: Yeah, I think for me, my initial interest in magic felt like it was about control and fixing things. And fixing things, I don't mean as in fixing problems: creating a static state, right? And that was all based on my anxiety. THERESA: Yeah. FABEKU: If I can, if I can magic the shit out of this, I can get it solid enough, the way I need it to be, where I need it to be, where I'm going to be fine. And then at some point you realize: even if you can pull that off, tomorrow, it's a different thing. [00:42:33] THERESA: Yes. FABEKU: Next week, it's an entirely different thing. And so I think for me I spent too much time figuring out: Okay, what's the magic that I can use to create the static state, which of course is bullshit. And now it's: what magic can I use to ride this fucker as effectively and as skillfully as I possibly can, and you know, hopefully keep my head above water in the process. AIDAN: Yeah. THERESA: I think a lot of us come into magic though, around that whole notion of trying to fix things or control things. Because I know when I got my first introduction to magical things I was a little girl and I would see the ads for The Magic Power of Witchcraft with Gavin and Yvonne Frost in the back of the National Enquirer that my mother used to get. and I would pour over those ads and I thought, “You know, if I get this book,” which, I didn't have the money to get the book, but “If I only could get this book, we'd no longer be poor and then everything would be magically fixed.” Which as you guys know, that's a very childlike way of looking at things. We all know that, let's say we do the magic and get all the money. It's no guarantee that you're not still going to be a loser, you know? So but in my childlike mind, I would look at those ads and that was like, this is the answer I need, to do this witchcraft stuff. I need to get this magic, get rich so I can get out of this household and everything will be better. FABEKU: Yeah. AIDAN: Right, and it's funny because then I think, you know, I . . . It kind of sinks it all that [00:44:03] stuff. Whereas the reality is, like, well, when you get out of that household, it'll be different. THERESA: Yeah. AIDAN: And that will probably be better, just because it will be different, right? SOMEONE: Mm-hmm. AIDAN: And I think that that's one of the games that people can get fucked up by, is not realizing like no, no, no, that's . . . You're looking at an end step that might really be step one. Like if your situation isn't working, it may not be that you need to do magic. It may be that you need a different situation. Which is often really hard and really uncomfortable but you can almost always have one. THERESA: Yes! AIDAN: You're not incarcerated, you can walk out of your life right now and do something different. And everybody goes, well no, there's all these things. You go, no, those are all real things, but none of those is stopping you from walking out your front door and having a completely different life. ANDREW: Yeah, I think that . . . AIDAN: And it may be ugly as hell, but you can do it. FABEKU: Yeah. ANDREW: Yeah, I think that, you know, if you're, if you're caught between those things, right? You know, like between sort of starting a new life and not. You know, magic isn't necessarily the answer either, right? Because, like thinking back to sort of like this time last year, you know my ex and I decided to call it--in July right on one of the equinoxes--or, one of the eclipses [00:45:33]--that happened, right? So, you know and . . . but like, the first half of that year leading up to this was just sort of like, clear noticing on both sides that stuff wasn't right. And this notion of like, well, what if we do this, what about this? What about that? You know and then trying those things, and a lot of that stock is predominantly, in this case, you know, not in everybody's case, because there's many different experiences, right? But like a lot of that stuff was psychological, right? THERESA: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: And that kind of clarity, you know, comes from processing it, right? Not from, not from a magical act, be like. All right, give me clarity, you know, like not even from like, you know, I mean, I could have asked the Orishas, and be like, hey, should I, should I, should I get divorced, you know? And they would have given me an answer, you know? But, but even that, if we're not clear in ourselves and we're not ready to make a change, the question is not, the question needs to move away from do I stay or do I go, but how do I get clearer in myself about it? And how do I get organized and acknowledge what are my concerns, what are the real-world challenges? What are . . . you know, all that kind of stuff so we can actually get ourselves to a place of clarity and some of those smaller steps might be susceptible to magic. Like hey, you know what? Maybe if I, if I had more money, I [00:47:03] would make a different decision here. THERESA: Mm-hmm! ANDREW: Well, I could do some magic around that, but that's not the same as making a piece of magic to get to that clarity necessarily, or to carry us through this idyllic state on the other side, you know? Does that make any sense? FABEKU: Yeah, it makes . . . It makes total sense to me, because when . . . So I got divorced five years ago, five and a half years ago, whatever it was, and it was a long process for us. It wasn't . . . Nobody just woke up one day and said, “Oh shit, I'm done.” Like, it . . . little . . . years of it in some ways. And I've thought a lot about like, why did that take so long? Not in a bad way, but kind of in a curious way. And what I realized is that she and I were both, like you said, kind of inching our way toward that clarity because it wasn't clear: be done, stay, whatever. And so we would try this and then that didn't work. So that moved us a little, a little forward in terms of clarity. Okay? Well, let's try that. That didn't work. And then you kind of reach the end of those things and then you feel clear and it's shitty. It was for me. It was shitty, it was devastatingly sad for her as well. But I think that's the thing. There is a process to that clarity and like you said, how do you magic that? I don't, I don't know how to magic that shit. I mean there was, you know, we both did work around capacity to be open to, let's try this. Let's try that. And also, at some point I said, I think maybe we should also be open to the fact that this might not work in a way that we want it to, right? So not just capacity to fix it but capacity to say, I think that what we need to do is just move in different directions, you know, and that was, that was a process that took a couple fucking [00:48:33] years for us. I mean that was not a fast thing at all. THERESA: But sometimes magic can support things that we're going through, but you still have to do your work. FABEKU: Yeah. THERESA: You don't ... And that's one of the things I think too, a lot of people, you know, when you first come to, like magic and stuff, we just think it's going to suddenly make our lives better, but it doesn't always work like that. Years ago, when I lived in New York, there used to be a shop called The Magical Child and it was run by a guy named Herman Slater and you can go in there and buy these little magical kits. So my roommate and I were both convinced we had bad luck. So I said, “Let's go ahead and get one of these kits.” And so we got the kit, we did the magic rituals together. I got to tell you, the whole energy in the room shifted. I mean it was weird. It was one of the most intense magical experiences I've ever had. And I looked at my roommate after that and I said, “Did you feel that?” And he said, “Yeah, I felt that too.” Well, what's really interesting is after that experience, my life did start to change for the better. And a lot of it was me becoming more conscious about: How did I get in the, how did I get into the situation? How can I get out? Whereas even though my roommate and I did that ritual together, his life continued to spiral in terrible directions. And the thing is, you can do all the magic in the world. But if you're still making crappy decisions or not being conscious of the process of getting yourself into a better place that magic is going to be not very effective. AIDAN: Right. One of the things that I've been ... I've got a piece that I think will be coming [00:50:03] out in the next collection. It has to do with that idea and it's a ... it's a talisman that's focused on the idea of effective power. Like, you know, you can have the stick, you can have the rock, and you can beat them against the other rock and not much happens. But if you know how to set it up as kind of a fulcrum and a lever and you do that on the right side so that once that thing breaks free, it doesn't roll down on you or something, you know, then that's what we would like to have happen more often in our lives. It's like where do we ... And so I think magic can absolutely help but it's, you have to have enough sense of clarity or use it to get enough sense of clarity or use divination to get enough sense of clarity. Whatever gets you there to go: Okay, I want this to change and here is a point that I could apply some pressure where that will happen. And then I'm going to have to probably do follow-up to keep that moving in the direction that I want to because again, nothing's static. It's not like that you pop that pop that spell and then everything is done. THERESA: Wouldn't that be nice? AIDAN: It would be awesome! [laughter] AIDAN: But it might give you that that that initial push that gets over the inertia that allows you to then kind of keep working on a more, you know, easier level or a less stressful level to get where you want to go. FABEKU: I think one of the things that, that I'm always thinking about and talking about is this idea that magic forces coherence, you know, it's ... It sounds fine to sit down and [00:51:33] enchant for a partner. And then let's say that partner shows up and you've got all kinds of emotional baggage. You've got unresolved bullshit, you're not as available to being loved as you think you would be. So what the fuck happens right? This person shows up, if they show up and then you get to eat shit sorting out your stuff. So, I mean the magic works right? You got the person, you had the money, you got the job, you got whatever the fuck it is. And then I think it also highlights all of the things that you need to shift in order to be coherent and that's usually not a magic. I mean, sometimes it's a magical thing, but sometimes it's just like “Oh, yeah, I just need to deal with my shit.” Like, “I've got a bunch of stuff. I need to deal with my shit.” Or “I've got money, but I'm really shitty at managing money. So I need to buy a book on managing money.” Like that's the thing. It's ... I like that idea of that fulcrum thing. It will move things in a certain direction and then you have to figure out what the fuck to do as it moves in that direction and if you're unskillful at that, magic's not going to fix that. It can't fix that. And I think that, in a lot of ways this goes back to what Andrew was saying about that fixed sense of identity, you know, so I think that magic in order to change things has to also change who we are and if that doesn't happen, I think we're either going to not have very effective results with magic or I don't think we're going to be able to sustain stuff over time, you know? And most of ... most of that forcing coherence shit fucking sucks. AIDAN: [chuckling] FABEKU: It's not great. You know? It's not a delightful thing. Nobody's like, “Oh great. My new person showed up, now I get to eat shit sorting my stuff.” Nobody wants to fucking do that. [00:53:03] It's a mess. It's a total mess. THERESA: It's kind of like when people win the lottery. They often think that their problems going to resolve but the money actually brings out more of what they really are. And if they haven't resolved who they are, they end up either blowing it all or doing really awful things with the money. FABEKU: Yeah. Yep. THERESA: You've got to resolve who you are because all the magic or tarot cards or astrology or you know, whatever, none of it's going to work if you don't resolve who you are, you have to go there and do the work on you. AIDAN: Yeah, I have a ... I have a guy that I knew through a friend who won the lottery. And I've known a couple of people through friends that have had the usual win, a couple million dollars and just fucking crash and burn and end up in a much worse state than they started and he was like ... I think he was like 16 years into his military career and he was like the perfect guy to win the lottery because he kind of went like, “Oh, that's nice. I will now spend the next four years till I get my pension from the military figuring out what to do with this four million dollars.” He like didn't really do anything because he knew he was not the guy to figure that out, but he could become that guy and was disciplined enough that he actually ... He's doing fabulously as far as I know 25 years later because of that. And he was just set. And he was not carrying a ton of wreckage and he knew where his problems were and he applied himself intelligently [00:54:33] and I think that that's the game. ANDREW: Yeah. The person who runs the pizza place near where I lived a long time ago. They won the lottery twice. I don't think like a million dollars but like hundreds of thousands of dollars several times and they just kept running the pizza business. Right, like they just kept showing up and making pies and you know, whatever. Like I don't know what they did with the money but like they just never stopped, you know, the place still runs now, you know, and it's like, yeah, life continues, right? AIDAN: Totally. ANDREW: I think, I think it's actually, you know, I look at ... I look at different people in my profession. And there are some people that I see and based on conversations with them and based on how I see them approaching work, I see them like working to get out of it, you know, they're working to retire. They're working to get enough money or they don't even have a plan to retire maybe and they're hoping that they'll somehow hit it a certain way and get out of it and whatever and, and I think it's, it's really problematic, right? You know, it's like, it's fine if you know, that's what you're doing and you handled it really well, but I think that if you know, like if your buddy in the military had been like, “Ah, I can be late for roll call or whatever because I got a million bucks in the bank,” if ... that's not going to go well, right? you know? And for me, like [00:56:03] people have asked me a number of times like, “Well, what would happen if you won all this money?” and whatever. I'm like, you know, well, I'd still run the shop and I'd still do readings and I'd still whatever. It would change a bunch of things and it would change how I went about it and maybe how much of it I did. but it's not going to change anything else, because, because I'm in this and I see myself being in this for, you know, indefinitely, you know, as opposed to an end, right? And just with a sort of periodic re-visioning of it to suit where I'm at that point, you know? You know, I'm sure in 10 years I'll have a different approach to being in the store and doing readings than I have now. In 20 years, I'll have a different approach again, but like the notion that I'm not going to be somehow doing what I'm doing in that amount of time just doesn't exist, you know? and I think that it's very, it's very interesting. Like the way in which people think about their future or think about, you know, like now, sort of, you know, not being ... well, I was always polyamorous anyway, but like looking at dating and stuff and it's a hundred percent find [not sure if I heard this right: find?] that people are on OkCupid or Tinder or whatever to meet their person and get off of there. But it's such a, such a complicated energy to bring to something to be there only so you could not be there anymore. You know? AIDAN: Totally. THERESA: I always think when I work that ... Oops. I always think: I get to work today. I [00:57:33] never look at it: “Oh, God, I got to work.” It's always: “Yay, I get to work today.” So I come from a long line of people who love to work and everyone in our family has a good work ethic and we love what we do. So I can't imagine a full retirement. Sorry Aidan. I didn't mean to jump in. AIDAN: Oh, no, I was basically going the same place. You know, I did 30 years of retail, which I didn't love. And so now that I'm able to do something that I do love, I have no intention of quitting. And yeah, it's like you said, if you give me a couple million dollars, I will probably get a warehouse nearby and have somebody build me a half pipe because I'll be able to afford the insurance and going to Panama for the stem cell treatments to repair my injuries instead of just being fucked up. And I will skate a lot more, you know. But yeah, I don't see it changing the whole thing, you know, it's not a ... It wouldn't be a ticket out. It would be like, okay now I can really just kind of chill and go crazy on: What is the best form of this thing that I do if I'm not as reliant on it being somewhat reasonable for people to be able to play with me? You know. ANDREW: For sure. And, you know, and obviously we're not talking about, you know, like I worked at 7-Eleven in high school. If I was still working at 7-Eleven... [laughter] AIDAN: Totally! ANDREW: You know, like, like, you know, we're all definitely in different positions than that, right? THERESA: Right. ANDREW: Like you know, you said you worked retail for [00:59:03] a long time. And that wasn't your jam, you know, and that's completely fair too, right? So like, you know, I don't want anybody feeling bad because they're like, “Oh, I have this job that sucks.” It's like some jobs suck, you know, I mean, you know, some jobs, you know, and whatever, but, and that's where, you know, maybe working some magic to start making some change and see what else you can do to kind of move in different directions, right? Like none of us got where we were and where we are and not that I'm hanging us up as role models either in that sense, but like all of us got where we are over a long period of time, right? THERESA: Yeah ANDREW: Lots of changes and lots of acts of magic and acts of dedication and practice and discipline and whatever, different things, luck maybe even, right? you know, like there are lots of ways in which we got where we are. So yeah. FABEKU: And you know, I think, I think a lot of that--going back to the identity thing. I... For me, the reason I keep going back to it is because it seems like such a critical piece, because if you have a fixed sense of identity and you're in a job you hate or you're in a relationship you hate or whatever it is, and you keep telling yourself: “This is who I am. This is what my life looks like. This is what I can do. This is kind of it.” How the fuck do you ever change that, right? So I think that if you instead kind of look past, this is not the easiest thing to do, but if you, if you can stretch past that and look at the things, like what am I telling myself I can never do that's impossible? The shit I could never have. Why am I telling myself that? Where the fuck did that come from? Is that actually true? If it's not true, what could I do now, that's different, [01:00:33] to get a different job, a different person, a different amount of money, and start looking at those things? But I think it ... that for me, the identity piece and the possibility piece are so intimately connected, I don't think you can separate them. And you know, if somebody that ... because I think about my dad, like he wanted to be an artist. He wasn't an artist. He spent his entire job in some high-level government corporate bullshit thing that he fucking hated. He was miserable, but that's who he told himself he was. That, that, that was his thing. He couldn't be an artist. He couldn't have a life he loved. He had to go to this place. And he died that way. It was fucking terrible, you know? And almost all of that came back to this identity stuff. And I wonder, you know, if he had, if one day he had said to himself: “Hmm. Is this really true, the bullshit I'm telling myself? It's probably not.” Like I wonder how things would have been different for him. So I mean, I think ... You know, I think those are just important things for people to think about when they find themselves with shit they don't dig. THERESA: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: Yeah, I was you know, I live, I live on the edge of a really fancy neighborhood in Toronto. And there's, there's this design store that sells, you know, fancy designer stuff. They do interior design for all these like multimillion-dollar homes and stuff like that. And I was looking for, I've been looking for a chair for my bedroom, so I have a spot where I can go and read and be away from, like if my kids want to watch TV and have their friends over, I can be like, that's cool. I'm going to go to my room. You have the main space and I'm going to be comfortable [01:02:03] and relaxed and not feel like I'm like forced to like sit on my bed like that, you know, whatever, right? Because I don't want that resentment. Right? And, and I was walking by this place and they had this beautiful armchair in the window and it had this amazing bird print fabric, like just these huge finches printed on it. And, you know, being a really fancy store, the fabric was cut perfectly, and the relationship of the birds, the shape of the chair, was amazing. I was just like, “Oh my God, that's such a beautiful chair.” And then I went and looked at it and it was like two and a half thousand dollars or something like that. And I was like, “Huh,” and I walked away. I'm like “Man, such a nice chair, I could never have a chair like that.” And then I caught myself, because I had to walk past it over a while, and it's like, “Man, well like I can't afford it today obviously, like that's not
Local musician and author, Andrew Castro, discusses his new book Overcoming Your Anxiety for People on the Go.Transcript:INTRO: This is Method to the Madness, a bi-weekly public affairs show on K-A-L-X Berkeley celebrating Bay Area innovators. Today, your host is Ojig Yeretsian. She'll be speaking with Andrew Castro, a professional singer-songwriter turned author. He's recently written a book, Overcoming Your Anxiety for People on the Go. OJIG: Thank You, Andrew, for coming in today. Welcome to the show. Can you tell us about yourself and why you wrote this book? ANDREW: Yeah. So for me, the book wasn't planned. I kind of just spontaneously decided that I had all this information in my head, and I wanted to sit down and write it. And for me, it was just years of personal experience with the content that's in the book. And so I just kind of felt like a gut feeling that I needed to sit down and just put it out. So I just sat down at my computer, wrote it, and I'd struggled with anxiety and stuff. But it didn't really become like a problem for me until I was about twenty five, I’m thirty three now. It was just kind of built, kind of like happens for a lot of people like a hidden layer that you just think it's kind of who you are. And then all of a sudden, it just kind of explodes just from too much buildup. And that was kind of what happened with me, and I went through years of it, pretty debilitating stuff. And then then I kind of got over it, but I went back in the same patterns, and then I, uh, had another bout with it again for a couple of years. And then I decided that, you know, it's time to make an actual change, not just let's see if I can fix this a little bit, but go back to what I was doing. So I had to really change my entire life patterns along the way. Along the way, I've been a professional musician, too, and that lifestyle doesn't always give the best results for not having anxiety, you know, because you're constantly not knowing where you're gonna be next kind of thing. So but yes. So the book just kind of came out, and it didn't take that long to write. It's short, but I outlined it for a couple weeks and then took about two months on and off to write it. OJIG:How do you define anxiety? ANDREW: I wouldn't put any single definition on it because there's so many different variations of it. People have social anxieties. In a simple term, for me, it's just overwhelming. I think that would be the best way to describe it. It's just an overwhelming feeling that there's, you know, social anxiety people who, like I have a friend who has social anxiety. He has more panic, and I have more generalized anxiety, but it's all comes down to just being very overwhelmed by whatever situation you're in with that anxiety. I have small social anxieties like most people do, but nothing that's overwhelming for me. But, you know, for him, social anxiety is overwhelming, like interacting with new people or being in group settings. It just and I don't feel that. But I can understand what he's going through because I think the general of feeling of anxiety is pretty, pretty close to the same. Just depends. Some people have it in this situation, and some people have in that. For me, I would say it's over just overwhelming sensations in thoughts, and they can just cycle and go back and forth with each other. OJIG:It sounds like it's very common. ANDREW:That's the biggest thing I think I tried to come across within the book is that you're not alone. That's the thing that people see and struggle with the most is when they get these feelings. You can't feel what somebody else is feeling, so you don't know that the things you're feeling aren't just you going crazy that they're actually like a pretty common thing, and I don't usually use stats much. But like there is one that always stuck out was that there's about forty million people in the United States alone that suffer in their life with some sort of anxiety disorder, which is an enormous amount of people. And those were just the people that are telling the truth. You know, there are some that are hiding it or don't want to talk about it. I think in some way almost every human in their life goes through some form and some get caught in it more and it lasts for a very long time and some some don't, some just have, ah, easier time letting go of things. For me, it wasn't like that, I just got caught in a cycle. Habits are a big thing, but, yeah, people are alone. And when that's the first thing that I realized when I started reading other books and other people's blogs and stuff, and I was like, it made you feel a little like, ‘Oh, there's other people with this’. You take a deep breath and then a lot of them have gone through it, and they're like, Oh, yeah, things the anxiety doesn't really bother me anymore. And so you go, ‘Okay, how'd you do that?’ And then you start to learn. I try to tell people to educate themselves as much as possible. Understanding something is the first step to getting over it. I think I compared it in the book to when you have your ah, cell phone and they put, like, new software on it. And, you know, you don't know what the heck’s going on. You know, the apps are changing. You don't know what you're doing, and you get frustrated. But the more you do that, you're not gonna learn anything. So if you just take fifteen minutes and start to learn ‘ah ok’, then it's like ‘Oh, this is actually better’ and then you start to learn the phone then all of a sudden, like, just take the time to learn it and you're not afraid of using your phone. You were like, I mean, with anxiety prior to take a few months or even a year. But if you learn about it, it diminishes the fear that you have over it. OJIG: Take us through the process. How does anxiety start and how does it grow? ANDREW: For everybody is different. So I'll speak for me. It definitely started when I was a young. So I talk in the book about this thing called a snowball effect. And it's a pretty common thing that people use for a ton of things that I thought it applied well to this. I think you kind of have a point in your life where things start to happen and you can go this way or that way, you know. And, uh, I chose this way, whatever that way is. When I was young, I had this memory of being at a drive-in movies with my parents, and I was just I was four or five and I just started crying because I had these overwhelming thoughts that my parents were going to die someday. And I was really young, but the feeling that I remember is that I couldn't control, that was gonna happen. And that for me, it was like a big thing throughout my whole life is not being able to control things around me that are uncontrollable. And then I don't like that. And then, you know, you worry about those things, even though it's impossible to stop those things from happening. But I did that from a young age, and you just don't know. You're unconsciously you don't know what you're doing to yourself. So for me, it started like that when I was really young. And then I went down that way, and I would just constantly worry about things over and over and same patterns. And just after years of doing that, it just ballooned, snowballed. And then best way to put it is that it explodes. When I was in my twenties. I mean, I liked to go out on my friends and drink, and that doesn't help somebody who's already sensitive to anxiety. So then, ah, yeah, just just kind of exploded. So that snowball just builds and you don't know it's building and the only way to stop it from building is to change, and that's very hard. But if you don't change, you know it's like that, Einstein quote, paraphrasing: but the definition of insanity is doing the same things over and over. So a lot of people want to not feel what they feel, that they're not yet willing to change what they're doing. But that's not their fault, really. It's just kind of a symptom of anxiety. They're afraid to do it, but when you get there and you start the process, it's well worth it. OJIG: There are a lot of self help books out there about anxiety. What makes Overcoming Anxiety for People on the Go unique? ANDREW: So I definitely took a couple examples from a couple books that I love. And I think what makes my book and those books unique is that there's no, it's not about tricks and gimmicks. No pinch this nerve or, you know, take ten deep breaths. I'll use this essential oil and that, and those are fine, like I'm not knocking those. Those are good, but they're all temporary things that are very impermanent, simple things that will help you in this moment. And my book is more about the long haul. So it's about the process of changing your perspective on your thoughts and your sensations and all that stuff. And I think a lot of books out there nowadays are doing that more. Ten years ago or so, it was just about the gimmicks and tricks. But we've learned so much about, uh, your your mind and, you know and sensations and your awareness that the way to get through anxiety is acceptance, and being aware of it, instead of just reacting to it. Had people interview me before, and they always they go ‘so what are some tricks and tips on how to you know’ and I was like, I mean, I don't really want to give those cause that's not what it's about. I've done those before, and they will, they kind of will help, like breathing obviously help. It does help. But it's not gonna, it's not going to do anything tomorrow or the next day. So you gotta learn, to just see things differently, and it takes a long time. But everybody's process different. Some person get over in two months, two years, five years. It's all different. Everybody's different in that way. Yeah so I think it's unique and just that it doesn't. There's no tricks or gimmicks. It's just everything in there is about how to take big steps to getting or little steps to where you want to be. OJIG: I found it to be engaging, humorous and a very quick read. Why only eighty pages? ANDREW: Because I think I just wanted to engage people. And I don't I don't like long books. When I get a book that's like four hundred pages and it looks like a daunting task. So when I see a book that short, but I packed a lot of content in it and just, you know, eighty whatever, pages it is. I wanted to be a book that people could read in the sitting or two to sitting three things, and then it's just something you can take with you, and you can just just reference it. OJIG: And its small so you can carry it in your purse, backpack, satchel.ANDREW: Right and that's what I wanted it to be something like you said in a purse or backpack or whatever. And nowadays, to people don't have attention spans either, you know, so keep it short and the people love that, ‘Oh, I read your book and like to sitting down to go back and re-read some stuff’. So that the whole idea of keeping it short and carry it with you people are saying that they're doing that.OJIG: That's great. So you've been getting positive feedback so far? ANDREW: Yeah, it's been it's been great. And it's a little overwhelming sometimes, like, because I'm not a doctor or , you know, a psychiatrist, or therapist and whatever. And sometimes I don't feel totally qualified. But I'm not, I'm not giving anybody advice for like this is what you need to do, I'm just telling you, here's what I did. And if you can try that and it works, then great. If it doesn't, then you know. But I try to encourage them to read other books, and if they're not going to therapy, they probably should. I think everyone should go to therapy like the whole world. Everybody should, have some sort of therapy sometime. OJIG: We're all the walking wounded. ANDREW: Yeah, exactly. Everybody everybody has, you know their things. And but I have given people advice, but I try to do it from my own experience kind like a book. I stick to that because I don't want to tell somebody that they need to do something for them because I could get in trouble with that, especially if they do something and it doesn't work or they hurt themselves or something. I don't want it. So I just ‘Here's what worked for me’. And yeah, a lot of people message me and told me that they're implementing a lot of things I said and that it's helping little by little. You know, basically, I try to tell them is to be patient. That's the hardest part. It takes a lot of a lot of courage and a lot of willpower, because sometimes I'll have really bad adrenaline. Just pumping through my body, and you just I have to sit there and just watch TV or read your book. Just sit through it, because if you start fighting it, it just gets worse. And the cycle continues. And I knew that I had just to be like, ‘Okay, come on and just let's just have it out’ and then you sit there and sometimes it last for hours. It's draining, and you want to quit all the time, but gotta find it in you to keep pushing through. OJIG: It sounds like it's a practice. ID/BREAKIf you're just tuning in, you're listening to Method to the Madness, a bi-weekly public affairs show on K-A-L-X celebrating Bay Area innovators. Today's guest is Andrew Castro. He's speaking about his experiences with anxiety and depression. He's recently written a book, Overcoming Your Anxiety for People on the Go. OJIG: What are you hoping to achieve with this book? ANDREW: Well, first I wrote it, I think a lot for myself, just like a therapeutic process. And I just want, if it could just help some people. I don't know how many that’s going to be, if that's a hundred, I mean, five hundred, as long as it helps some people that's it's accomplished its goal. I just wanted to get people and I want people to know that that you don't have to be like this forever. That's the thing that scares I think everybody. And still I get that sometimes, like, I'll get a little bit of anxiety, and then, you know, those old thoughts would creep in and be like, ‘What if it's like this forever?’ But then I now I just ‘No. Let's just give about thirty minutes’ and you'll see it's just gonna fade away, and it usually does.OJIG: Is this the book you would have wanted to read when you first realized that you were dealing with anxiety, that this is what it was? And did you seek any medical guidance or advice? Did you see any professionals? ANDREW: Yeah. So this I didn't know it, but this would have been the book, you know, that I wanted to read. And then I did. There was a book called At Last The Life by Paul David. And my book is very much modeled like his but, just with my own experience. Yeah, that book was the book that was like that started me on getting to my recovery. You don't know what the time you're just looking for anything. I started therapy was in seventh grade. I remember just being overwhelmed by a lot of things then, and I, at that age, asked my parents to see a therapist. And, uh, it was very bene- I went to it for, like, ten, twelve years, something like that. And then I stopped. And now now I see one down the street from where I live in Sacramento every every few weeks or so. Just, you know, sometimes I don't even necessarily need it. But I talk about it. And then as far as medication and stuff for a couple months, I was on Xanax. But there was always something in me that I didn't want to be a slave to something. I think medication is great to help you get where you want to go. But if, I know a lot of people who take it just to get rid of their symptoms. I always try to, like, really walk the line here because medication is very beneficial in the right circumstances. But it just it could be a crutch, and you sometimes never want to let go with a crutch. And a lot of people just take medication and just don't change anything in their lives. That's when you ah, you don't go anywhere, you're just you're basically just you're numbing yourself and which some people you need it. At times, it's so overwhelming that you have to have it. But if you don't implement the other, the other practices that will actually change your whole perspective on what you're going through, then you're always going to need the medication. If you need medication, you should go to a professional and you should have a whole game plan and say, ‘Okay, I'm gonna be on this specific medication for four months and at two and a half months we're going to slowly wean off it, and while we're doing that we're going to get deep therapies to what's happening because what medication does it can take the edge off to give you room to, implement these things.’ Like sometimes people get so overwhelmed that they can't get their mind to accept what's happening because they're so overwhelmed. I've been a nervous flyer before too and still kind of am. And I've taken Xanax on a plane, and it works. Like you get you get really, you know, kind of mellowed out, and it gives you room to kind of organize yourself a little bit. But, you know, I always had the bottle, but it was almost like a comfort. And I remember, I go on trips and I always bring the bottle because I was like, just in case something doesn’t go over well. But I knew I wasn't gonna take it, like I just knew. But I knew if it was there and I had to or something that I could and then but when I really started noticed I was getting better was I remember that time I just had it and I was going on a trip and I just didn't bring it. I was like, ‘well, let's just see what happens’. And then I got through the trip and then you get confidence more you do that. So that's what from me, what it was was I felt personally that I could get through it without using medication. Not everybody can. I don't know if everybody should try either. OJIG: You have a phrase in the book you mentioned ‘Don't believe everything you think’. Explain what you mean by this. ANDREW: I got into meditation, like a couple years ago, two and a half years ago. That quote there didn't mean anything to me two and a half years ago. But, you know, I read a lot of books on especially on Buddhism and Eastern philosophy, you know, and, you know, my own personal perspective on is they seem to have something right on all that. And so what it is, what it means is that I have a section the book called The Thought Factory. And so I say that your brain is like a factory and its main product that it produces and exports are thoughts.OJIG: Assembly line.ANDREW: Assembly line, just thoughts. And they're just that's all they are. And if you really want to get really deep into it. You're really not even necessarily thinking all those thoughts. They're just just taking in stuff. And then, you know, smells will trigger a thought, or a sight will trigger a thought or a person will trigger something that just stored in your brain just keeps getting sent up. And then there's a great line in a book: Your mind directs your thoughts towards your awareness. So your awareness, you know there's awareness which we don't exactly know what it is. But there is awareness, and your mind projects these thoughts, and then they're so real and something overwhelming that we put all our energy in awareness into them so you can take a thought, like from get on airplane. And before I get on it, I just picture it crashing and burning and whatever. And that's not happening. That's not a real thing. That's hard for you to understand that, but like to not believe that is that's reality. That thought is happening right now. But you were projecting yourself into the airplane crashing and you're making yourself get all worried. But you're just sitting in the airport, doing nothing. So it's just a false, just false. OJIG: Having the space to ask yourself in the moment ‘Is this true?’ANDREW: Right, yeah, especially during meditation. You, can see thoughts just pass. They kind of float and then they burn out. That's a big thing with people with meditation is they think they're not supposed to think like I couldn't stop thinking. Well, you'd probably be dead if you weren't thinking. One thing that helped me was that your heart its function is to pump blood to the body, your liver, you know, detoxifies, your digestive system digests your food, your eyes see and your mind thinks. It's just a function of your body, and that's what it does. It thinks, and you can attach your awareness to certain things to problems, all the do all this stuff. But if you attach your energy and awareness to every thought you have, it's going to be, it's going to be rough. And, um, that's what happened with me. I would have negative, scary thoughts, but I would believe them so much because they were in my head. So I was like they have to be true and you have thousands of thoughts all the time. Like if those are all true that the world would be a really weird place. You don't have to believe any of it. You get to choose what you want to put your energy into and believe and go from there. But meditation really helped me with that. There's a monk, who said, ‘Don't believe your thoughts. They're fake news’, which I thought was great, especially for this time. OJIG: It's the beginning of the new year, and people may be setting intentions. Can you share a nugget of how listeners can change their habits or make a change around this? ANDREW: Yeah, I think doing one little thing differently is a start. When I was younger, I had bad OCD. And I did a bunch of different things before I went to bed. Like it took me a long time before I could got to sleep, right To check the blinds. I checked the locks and do this. You know, one night I just decided to eliminate one thing. You know, one little thing like tonight, I'm not going to do that. It was hard not to do that one thing. And then I don't the other things, but And then once I didn't do that one thing you to try and take it. So I think for people you know the new year. I think if you have ten, you know, really crappy habits that you know are just these aren't doing me any good, get rid of one and go from there. Because the biggest thing is gaining confidence and they talk about that a lot in Buddhism too; it’s faith in the things you've done, give you the confidence in the faith in yourself to keep going kind of thing. And any faith is great. But that, for me, was a big thing. Because so when people eliminate one little habit like for a New Year's resolution and they see that after a few weeks and ‘oh the habit’s kind of gone or it’s changed’ and they start to go, well, I could probably that with another habit and then you slowly start to do that, and that changes your perspective on, on, things. Because humans, we are our habits. If you consciously go through your day, you'll probably notice fifty things that you do every day almost the same way. And if a lot of those things are negative, you're inflicting harm on yourself through some of those habits than it's just going to keep building. And that's when you're gonna have a lot of stress and anxiety and depression. You know all that stuff because you're like watering those seeds. So that's what's going to grow. OJIG: Can you read some passages for our listeners? ANDREW: Sure. So I really like this one here. This one I'd like to talk about with people, but it's hard for people to hear this. I'll read, and then I'll explain. It says the universe doesn't owe you anything. The sooner you realize that things are just the way they are, and sometimes they're crappy, the sooner you will learn to accept your situation from that point on, you can decide who you want to be and how you want to get there. It's all up to you, But please realize your anxiety is not special. I've been so lost my own anxiety that I didn't realize close friends around me were suffering from the same thing and vice versa. We're all in this together. We all share some form of suffering. The quicker we can all realize that suffering is a part of life, the quicker we can master our response to that suffering. Basically, a much more gentle way of putting it is you are not alone. Okay, so I like this one's in the afterward, and it says, anxiety is not something you need to carry with you the rest of your life. At least you don't have to carry it the same way you have been carrying it. I hate when people tell me to manage my anxiety. The only thing I'm going to manage is keeping myself on task and dedicated to eradicating old habits, to shift my perspective on life. We got ourselves into this mess so we can definitely get ourselves out. So I like those because especially the first one, there was a friend of mine who was going through the same the same thing. And I didn't even know that because you're so caught up in all this is my problem. No one's feeling the way I'm feeling. But there are millions people feeling not only the way you're feeling, but exactly the way you're feeling. This isn't something that's unique to me. Like I'm the only one who has this disease or something like it's not a disease. It's just, you know, it's a psychological disorder and millions of people have it. And there was something I learned from Will Smith actor and he said he was using much of examples. But one was like If you were abused when you were a kid, which is awful and you have trauma from it is terrible. And it's it's a weird thing to hear because I'm not saying anything negative. But it's still that person's responsibility to fix it and to deal with what's happening because no one else can deal with it for them. People can help them and support, but same with, like, if you have a death in the family, do you still have the things that are left inside you that you have to learn to accept and be responsible for OJIG: Healing yourself.ANDREW: Healing yourself and you need you need support, you need people around you. But in the end, if you can't make the decision, the universe doesn't know anything. It's just, basically, you have to take the initiative to do it. What I've gone through is very minimal compared to someone who's like lost a parent when they're young or, you know he's living in some country that's torn apart by war. My problems are small comparatively, but I still need I need to sit down and go. These are my problems. I have to fix them. And if you want other people to fix them for you, that's never gonna happen. I wrote an article for this local online publication in Sacramento, and I said that I'm the one who built my life, so if I built it, I can tear it down and I can rebuild it kind of thing. And obviously, sometimes, genetically, you're more prone to things. But that doesn't mean that has to be you forever or whatever. It just means you have to work a little harder rebuilding it. My choices and habits built this building of anxiety. So, I can knock it down and I can build a new building next to it or far away, or whatever. You know what you're going through is not special. It's very common. And that's That's a good thing. I'm not trying to be mean about like it's just it's not special. Like I had somebody call me once. They were going through a really tough time they were asking me, How do I get rid of these feelings right now? And I just told him, You can't That's hard for them to hear. It was somebody close to me, so I was like to realize you can't get rid of it actually frees you from fighting them. OJIG:So it's part of the human condition. ANDREW: Yeah, that's like we were talking about Buddhism that we saw because there's lost there's disease, There's pain, there's all this stuff and you're never gonna be able to get rid of those things. You gotta learn to deal with those things. OJIG: How has anxiety or living with anxiety impacted you as a musician and as a performer? ANDREW: Started playing, writing songs maybe, like nine years ago. And I love doing it so much that I wanted it to be my career, But it's not a very easy thing to make into a career. So it caused for me a lot of stress because I just felt I wasn't made to have like a what you call a normal job. I guess, you know, you go to the office or you go work, whatever. But then I had this thing that I love to do that. I was getting better out, but it doesn't make any money, and money is a big stress builder. It's one of the biggest things that people have regrets about or, you know, are worried about in the future, and it causes a lot. And that caused me a lot of anxiety because I want to do this thing. But I couldn't make money at it. Then I move to Sacramento because a smaller area and I really networked and I made it my profession and I toured. It's a very exciting thing, so make a little exciting way to make a living. But it's very draining because you play shows sometimes with two people. When you leave town Or you're playing some restaurant or bar and no one's paying attention. Or you have ten shows booked in February and then four people call you cancel and you just lost like a thousand dollars. It's ah, the unknown cause me a lot of anxiety and stress. And so when I start writing this book, I took a break from music till about just a couple weeks ago, and I started writing again. I took, like, six months seven months. Just no, no writing, no recording and again changed my whole perspective on music. So before I was chasing it, like I wanted to be a star and beyond stage and playing music, and it was like getting competitive and stressing me out. I just now, I don't. Now they don't care. I don't want those things. I just don't I don't put my energy into go about a different way. I won't write the songs. I want to write a play. And people like him great. If they don't, no that’s it. OJIG: Did your anxiety ever prevent you from getting on a plane to go to a show or from going on stage? ANDREW: No. You know, I just have a weird way of doing things. I can't remember a time where I was just really terrified and didn't do it. I used to have to get drunk to get on the plane. That's how I used to do it. No matter what time is, the flight was at 7am and I got there. It was bad. But that's how I had to get on a plane. Because I was just, you know, on then that I've changed is now I don't I don't do that. The stage fright. I definitely had it. Remember, going open mikes out when I lived out here, I'd go to one's all around Berkeley in San Francisco, and I'd sign up. I go, Okay, I'm fifth, so I have about forty five minutes or an hour. So I go sit my car and I practice my songs over and over like two songs. That's all you get down like in there for like, an hour practicing. I get really nervous. But then once I get on stage, there's no nerves. And so I started to realize that, and I had a big show out here in San Francisco at The Independent and was opening for this guy, and I was like, sold out. No one knew who I was, and I was so nervous, so much adrenaline because, you know, it's five hundred people out there, and I was like, I'm solo act, or was, I’m gonna get a band now, so I was just by myself all the time. So I was just backstage. My friend came and I was just jumping up and down, trying to shake stuff out. Because I was just, like, really amped up. I’m gonna forget the lyrics, I’m gonna forget the melody. I’m gonna forget all this. And then I just got up there and the crowd just started cheering and screaming like I was the headliner. Well, all right, that's cool. Then I just started playing and everything's fine. So the anxiety has never prevented me from doing anything. Even when I was at my worst, I knew if I didn't do it, then it'd be easier to not do it the next time, too. Same with flying. I love to travel the one time I don't get on a plane then it's going to be easier to not get on the plane the next time. You know, the fear will just build and take over, and it’ll become easy not to do it. OJIG: Has writing this book helped you in your musical path? ANDREW: Yeah, it definitely has. Because at the time I wrote this book and made me take a break from music, which I never did. People would tell me this, this isn’t me saying like, you're the hardest working musician, it’s inspiring because I would just go to every open mic, play every show, I released four E.P.s within, like a twelve month span and then an album, and I just wouldn't stop. And then I took a break, changed my perspective, kind of like what's in the book. I just changed my whole perspective on it, and then my writing now is different than it was before. I think before I was trying to be something I wasn't. My first musical loves were like Tom Petty and Bob Dylan and Bruce Springsteen, all those. I want to got to go back to writing those songs, get a band and write like some pop rocks stuff that I really want to do . So that's what I'm doing now, and it's so it's learning more to just be myself.OJIG: Andrew, what does the future hold for you in terms of next steps?ANDREW: I'm going to start a podcast, so that's in the next. Hopefully in January, I want to talk a lot about the content of book, and just even it's going to be hopefully like bi weekly. And it'll even talk about the current state of the world because that causes a lot of people anxiety right now. I'd like to get into talks to in front of groups, especially places like here, like colleges with younger people that are at that point where these kind of things can really, creep up on them and then music for me. I'm gonna start a band, and I'm going back to the studio, hopefully this week with some new songs and try a whole different approach to it. OJIG: It sounds exciting. ANDREW: It should be hopefully.OJIG: And where can our listeners get more information and find your book? ANDREW: Yeah, so the easiest way to find it on just Amazon. You search probably just search Andrew Castro but or the title of the book is Overcoming Your Anxiety for People on the Go. There's a Kindle version, and there's the paper back. I have a website, but I'm waiting till I get the podcast going everything before I start directing people to that. Right now, everything's going through Amazon. OJIG: Any parting words for listeners who may be anxious but struggling to name it? ANDREW: Yeah, I would say one is to educate yourself. There’s this book, mine, At Last a Life by Paul David. There's a book called Dare by Barry McDonough. Those are three, including mine. Three good books that you can go to, and those will help you and be patient. You're going to feel good when you read the books, like, Oh, you know, and then that's going to go away and you're going to go back to the way you felt. Never put a time limit on your recovery. You go into it with a full dedication and trusting the process. You're going to have setbacks, big ones. If you're having a setback, that means that before the setback you were doing better. Educate yourself, be patient, and you're not alone. I mean, there's probably hundreds of millions of people that are going through some sort of anxiety disorder at some point in their life. If you're not patient, you're gonna drive yourself into the ground. And if you don't educate yourself, you're not gonna understand that what you have is pretty common, and it's it's fixable. And then if you don't understand, you're alone, you're always going to feel isolated. So I think those three things are good to take with you.OJIG: Thank you so much.ANDREW: Thank you for having me.OUTRO: You've been listening to Method to the Madness, a bi-weekly public affairs show on K-A-L-X Berkeley celebrating Bay Area innovators. Today's producer was Ojig Yeretsian. You can find all of our podcasts on iTunes University. See you in two weeks. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.
The Hermit's Lamp Podcast - A place for witches, hermits, mystics, healers, and seekers
Rebecca and Andrew talk about the way plants work in their lives – through sharing about their studies and personal journeys with plants. They also talk about fear and how pushing through that brings better things even though it isn't easy. Finally they also talk about traditional knowledge and how to respect elders an indigenous people. Find Rebecca at BloodandSpicebush.com and the classes at Sassafras-School.com Think about how much you've enjoyed the podcast and how many episodes you listened to, and consider if it is time to support the Patreon You can do so here. If you want more of this in your life you can subscribe by RSS , iTunes, Stitcher, or email. Thanks for joining the conversation. Please share the podcast to help us grow and change the world. Andrew You can book time with Andrew through his site here. Transcription ANDREW: [00:00:01] Welcome to The Hermit's Lamp podcast episode 93. I am here with Rebecca Beyer, who is an herbalist and plant person and does all sorts of wonderful things in that environment. For [00:00:17] those who don't know you, Rebecca, give us . . . give us a quick introduction. Who are you? What do you . . . what are you about? REBECCA: Hi! I'm about, I guess, I'm about Appalachia and I'm about plants and [00:00:32] I'm about traditional witchcraft. That's like those three things. I think. ANDREW: Yeah. Well, if people don't know what Appalachia is . . . REBECCA: Yeah! ANDREW: Let's start with that, because maybe not everybody does. REBECCA: That's so interesting and [00:00:47] I love that you all are up in Canada. So it's really cool to to know, you don't know what Appalachia is! [chuckling] ANDREW: I mean, I think people . . . I do, but yeah, let's, let's just make sure nobody has to go Google anything mid-podcast. REBECCA: That's such a good idea. Yeah, Appalachia is a region, [00:01:02] which is debated, that's cultural and ecological in the Eastern side of the United States. It's a mountain range that extends from, culturally, I would say, you know, Western Pennsylvania through Northern Georgia, [00:01:17] but mountain-wise and ecologically through a few different regions on the Eastern Seaboard, kind of inland. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: So, this big mountain range, the Appalachian Mountains. Mm-hmm. ANDREW: And there's a lot of spiritual tradition that's [00:01:32] kind of from that area, right? Like a lot of, sort of more folk magic and you know, those kinds of approaches, right? REBECCA: Yeah, that's one of the things that I am a student of and teach is Appalachian folk magic, and [00:01:47] I'm very passionate about . . . and especially where plants and plant lore come into that story. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. So did you grow up with that or did you find your way into it? Like how did that come about for you? REBECCA: That's a good question. I did not grow [00:02:02] up with it. I grew up on a farm in New Jersey. ANDREW: Okay. REBECCA: And, yeah . . . and halfway in both states. And it's funny cause when I tell people I'm from New Jersey, they're like, "Oh, you're not, you don't seem like you're from New Jersey at all," and I'm like, "Are you saying like, I'm not an asshole," like what? ANDREW: [laughing] REBECCA: What are [00:02:19] you saying? I don't know if I'm allowed to say that on the air. ANDREW: I'm sorry to everybody in New Jersey who's listening to this. Yeah. REBECCA: Well, I'm sorry, because I like, you know, I had a beautiful upbringing in a very pretty little country spot in central New Jersey. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: And I [00:02:34] loved our little farm, but we didn't raise plants. We just raised animals. ANDREW: Okay. REBECCA: But I've always loved, I feel like since I was a little girl I wanted to be a witch. It was just something I've always been interested in and I was raised in the Unitarian Universalist Church. [00:02:49] So I met a lot of witches and it was easy to start studying witchcraft seriously. At around 12, I kind of dedicated myself to studying it and, through that, became more interested in plants and realizing that they could be used for more than food. [00:03:04] ANDREW: Mm-hmm. And, so how did the head of the Appalachian part come in? Like, did you meet somebody, did you like, you know, go stand on a mountain and be like, oh, this is home. Like . . . ? REBECCA: That's a good question. [00:03:19] I was obviously a very weird kid as we've, most of us probably were. ANDREW: Sure. REBECCA: And very socially isolated. We moved nine times when I was a kid, so I didn't have strong connections with other human adults till I was 18, when I moved to Upstate New York to go to college [00:03:34] at Bard College, and I met my now best friend Sarah Lynch Thomason, who's an Appalachian ballad singer, who's from Nashville, Tennessee. And she moved to Asheville right after we graduated from college. She graduated ahead of me, and she was like, you [00:03:49] HAVE to move here, Asheville, North Carolina, like, it is what's up. So I just packed my truck with all my things and drove to Asheville. And--after I graduated from college--and I just lived in her living room for two weeks. ANDREW: Right. REBECCA: And then I just fell [00:04:04] in love. I tried to leave, once, I think to go back up to Vermont where I had been living before, and I think that lasted like three weeks and I came back. So that was in 2010 when I moved here. So I've been here for longer now than anywhere I've ever lived in my life. ANDREW: It's [00:04:19] interesting how, you know, like I think about . . . I mean, Vermont's got lots of mountains. Upstate New York's got lots of mountains, you know? It's funny how, you know, from a geologic point of view, anyway, there's [00:04:34] this like, oh look. Well, it's all mountains. What about . . . what is it about those mountains? What is it about that place that drew you in or captivated you? REBECCA: That's a good question. Well, I think, geologically speaking, the Appalachians are so special, [00:04:49] because they're some of the oldest mountains in the world, which we forget in America. We often like to excoticize--and I'll say North America, to include all of us on this continent--like to exoticize things from far away, but we have some of the most ancient land masses [00:05:05] in existence right at our fingertips, and it's pretty incredible. And plant communities that are very unique. And to me, the extreme biodiversity of where we live in southern Appalachia, where I live is temperate [00:05:20] rain forest. So we have more plants than anywhere except for North Alabama, which has the most diverse plant life in the United States. ANDREW: That's amazing. REBECCA: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: And did you find . . . do you feel like . . . You [00:05:35] know, like, lots of people talk about sort of spirit of place, right? as a thing that's sort of emerged into people's awareness more over time. And you know, at least more recently from my perspective. REBECCA: Yeah. ANDREW: You know, do you feel that that's part of it [00:05:50] for you? Like is there, is there a spirit of the land where you're actually hanging out that's, that's part of your life? REBECCA: Yes, my friend Marcus McCoy who started the Veridis Genii Symposium . . . ANDREW: Yeah. REBECCA: When I was [00:06:05] early 20s--you probably know him--when I was in my early 20s, I stumbled across his blog, Bioregional Animism, and it really changed . . . It gave me words for things that I had felt but I didn't know were names for and other [00:06:20] bloggers have now gone on to further that idea, which was, you know, kind of coined, I'd say in the 70s with the rise of bioregional scholarship, on just like, policy and land management. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: They took it deeper, you know? I [00:06:35] wrote a lot of my thesis--I have a master's degree in Appalachian Studies--and I wrote my thesis on--which is really silly, I know. But I looked a lot at like the history of bioregionalism and like what makes Appalachia and regional studies important. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: And [00:06:51] to me, in this globalized world, you know, we struggle for meaning, you can see it everywhere. Especially white folks, like without any cultural, strong cultural ties, will grab onto any strong cultural tie from any culture that [00:07:06] we can find. And yeah, and I think a lot of that comes from a lack of grounding in place. So to me, I do think there is a spirit of Appalachia. My friend Byron Ballard, who's a well-known Appalachian folk practitioner, she, in our area, says there's [00:07:21] a mother Appalachia, this kind of an entity that makes this place so special. And to me, I'm also a musician, I'm an artist, and all the things I do revolve around Appalachian folk practice. And to me, it's like helped me ground in, because [00:07:36] I wasn't raised here . . . ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: Into the life way and the art way and the music way of this place. And not necessarily say, this is mine, it's from me, but wow, I participate in this, and I love it, and I want [00:07:51] to, you know, support it and continue it and nurture it. ANDREW: Yeah. I think it's always interesting when people, you know, or never mind people. For me, you know, I mean, I found my way into being a Lukumi, you know Orisha [00:08:06] practitioner, right? You know, so, I'm initiated in an Afro-Cuban religion, you know, and that's, that's been my journey for, you know, getting towards being 20 years now, you know, but I think that it's really always interesting when people are looking [00:08:21] for that meaning and they find it somewhere else. How do you go about exploring that and connecting with that, in a way that is, you know, respectful, meaningful in a broader context, because it's . . . [00:08:36] I think that you know what people do in general, even if it's not respectful, might be meaningful to them personally, you know, but problematically culturally, right? But what do you think about . . . how you know, how, how would you recommend people approach this [00:08:51] kind of stuff if what you're talking about is something that they're drawn towards? REBECCA: Yeah, I think that's such a good question and it's a sensitive one. You know, there's . . . I always notice that I feel fear and I feel nervousness when [00:09:06] talking about these things, because, unfortunately the way that people communicate online is very different than how they'll communicate in real life. [laughs] Discovered . . . I just taught a class, this is a great example, and I think will answer this question, on [00:09:21] the uses of fumatory plants worldwide to address cultural appropriation issues. ANDREW: Sure. REBECCA: Because, specifically with white sage being overharvested, and a lot of indigenous Western folks saying, hey, can you guys slow your roll on this, you know? buying all this unsustainably [00:09:36] harvested sage? [laughs] ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: So, like, why do you feel the need to burn this plant specifically, when it's not part of your cultural lineage? And I don't think anyone at this point in the world is like, you can't do anything that's not from your specific ancestry, because I mean I have eight different ancestries. [00:09:52] You know? And it's . . . ANDREW: Sure. REBECCA: Most people do. And, and, and I think that's not what people are saying, and a lot of folks get defensive, and say, "Well, what, am I not allowed to do anything?" and it's like, "No, calm down. [laughs] No one's telling you that." And I think what you're doing when you're initiated in something . . . [00:10:07] Initiation is an invitation. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: If you are studying with a person from that, you know, Afro-Cuban lineage, who's saying, "You're welcome here, come into this space." That's very different than when someone says, you know, "I'm gonna self study [00:10:22] this thing, and then declare myself an expert and then make money off this thing . . ." ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: And never study the cultures that this thing comes from. ANDREW: For sure. REBECCA: Yeah, because what I do, I'm not technically Southern Appalachian, but I practice and teach Appalachian folk magic. And some people, I'm sure, would take issue with that. But [00:10:37] what do I do? I think it's all about how we how we raise up the cultures that we are benefiting from. How do we support them? How do we not try to speak for them and do the like white savior thing? And like, how do we invest [00:10:53] ourselves in the continuance and preservation and nurturance of the cultures that bring us such joy and meaning. And I include myself in that even though, technically, Appalachian folk culture is largely based on some things I have cultural access to. It's also based [00:11:08] in Cherokee and African traditions. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. For sure. REBECCA: That have direct lineage too, that I need to respect and call attention to. ANDREW: Yeah, and that's an interesting thing about a lot of those, you know, Appalachian, you know, root work, hoodoo [00:11:23], like a lot of those, sort of, you know, from there, heading further south, traditions are really such an interesting meld of, you know, of cultures, right? REBECCA: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: You know, they're, they [00:11:38] involve stuff that came from Africa through the slaves. They involve stuff that came through the indigenous communities that were there alongside those people, you know, and then they have a mixed in, you know, depending on the region, [00:11:53] you know, European Christian or other folk traditions too, right? Like it's such a . . . it's such an interesting meld and I think that it's so helpful to really respect the fact that they come from a bunch of different places. They [00:12:08] come from all those lineages, you know? REBECCA: Yeah. Mm-hmm. ANDREW: Yeah, because it's easy to, like, it's easy to be like, well, you know, this is just like this person's thing or this is that person's like . . . They're diverse and their strength [00:12:23] comes from that history, right? REBECCA: It's true. It's true, and it's great talking to my friends who are hoodoo practitioners, and saying, you know, the first time I met my friend Demetrius, who I don't know if you know, from New Orleans at [00:12:38] Veridas Genii Symposium. We were kind of like doing a comparison like, what do you, do you do this, in hoodoo? And he's like, well, do you do this in Appalachian folk magic? And it was just like, such overlap that we were like, of course, these things are so similar. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: And it was wonderful and then we were like, "Let's sing a Scottish [00:12:53] ballad," you know, and like, because he does a lot of ballads. And then I'm like, let's, you know, he's like, "Do you want to learn this song in this West African language?" And I was like, "Oh heck, yeah." It was just, it was really cool, because it was like living that experience of seeing the lines . . . ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: By sharing verbally [00:13:08] those things and song and in tradition and looking at different charms we were talking about. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: And I loved that. It was really special and what you're saying, too, is, we tell stories about traditions being [00:13:23] all one thing and they're . . . One thing I learn as I get older--and I'm 31, I'm not terribly wise--but I notice things are always more complicated and beautifully complex than we think they are. ANDREW: Mm-mm. REBECCA: The're never black or white. It's just [00:13:38] complex. ANDREW: For sure. Yeah. Yeah. I think that one of the other things I want to circle back to, you know, is, you mentioned, you know, briefly about, like, sustainability and stuff like that. And I think that that is [00:13:53] also such an important part of the equation of what's, what we're talking about here too, right? Like, you know, if you're going to live in, you know, in connection with plants and connection with [00:14:08] the spirits of the, of a place or whatever, right? I think that, that that attention on making sure that it's sustainable, making sure that there's some left, you know, like . . . I mean, you know, in my tradition, we use a lot of plants and some [00:14:23] of them do grow up here. Some of them I grow myself inside. And you know, some of them are just not possible in the far far north where I practice, but you do what you can. But you know, one of the things that my elders always stress is, you know, you never [00:14:38] take it all. You always leave enough that it keeps going, right? You always want to make sure that whatever you're working with, that, you know, later on it'll have regrown or next season it will regrow or whatever, because there is this eye towards . . . [00:14:53] You know, this is, this is a thing forever, hopefully. And therefore we want to keep that going forever, you know? REBECCA: Yeah. Mm-hmm. ANDREW: Yeah. REBECCA: Yeah, I teach foraging classes as my day job. [laughs] ANDREW: Yeah! REBECCA: That's what I do [00:15:08] for a living. And this year, I'm actually going to teach foraging at the University of North Carolina. ANDREW: Amazing. REBECCA: As a college course. I know, I feel so honored. It's one nice thing about having an Appalachian Studies Master's, is now I can teach at colleges and that's, you know, even though they pay terribly, it's very good. [ringing phone] ANDREW: [00:15:23] I'm sorry. Can we pause for one second here? I've no way to make the phone stop ringing. [whispers] Stupid phone! [laughs] It's . . . REBECCA: Also, I have to say . . . ANDREW: What's that? REBECCA: Your mustache is spectacular. ANDREW: Thank you, thank you. REBECCA: It's like, that mustache is [00:15:39] on point. ANDREW: I started it as a joke, like a year and a half ago. Somebody on the radio was saying like, mustaches are coming in. And I was like, I've never grown a mustache. I wonder if I can grow a mustache? And, and then, I started growing it and I posted to Facebook and [00:15:54] everyone was like, yes, keep it going, and now, I'm just like, all right. This is my, this is my life now, so. REBECCA: That's amazing. Mustache life! ANDREW: Mustache life. ANDREW: Mustache life. All right, I'm going to clap and then we can start again. [claps] All right. [00:16:09] You were talking about teaching at the university. REBECCA: Yeah, I'm really excited to get to teach at UNCA. I'm teaching foraging, and you were speaking about sustainability, and there's a lot of interesting, confusing, [00:16:24] complex arguments about wildcrafting in the United States, especially. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: And in Canada, and any place that is colonized indigenous land. And what, as settler folks, who are European ancestry, like what are our responsibilities to [00:16:39] be good wildcrafters. Some people say you shouldn't wildcraft at all, zero percent is sustainable. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: Others say, you can just take indiscriminately and do whatever you want. But obviously, I think the truth, there's no such thing as truth, [00:16:54] but I think a more balanced view is somewhere in between and something I've been really interested in and enjoying doing is: there's a lot of plants we call invasive and some of them radically alter their landscape, like one of my favorite plants, kudzu. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: Which [00:17:10] on Gordon White's podcast, I mentioned I like kudzu and you would not believe the angry humans on those comments. [laughs] ANDREW: I would, I would. REBECCA: I did not say we should go plant kudzu. I did not say like throw its seeds everywhere. I just said I love kudzu. And that triggered [00:17:26] a lot of people. Because it's edible, it's medicinal, and I'm in recovery from alcoholism, and kudzu's root has some great compounds in it that specifically help with the cravings for alcohol. So it's one, spiritually very in line with my heart and my personal journey. So, [00:17:41] and it was used in Japan and China for that purpose for a long time. But it's just funny because I can harvest as much kudzu is I want, you know, and like, I'm not going to put a dent in it. [laughs] But, I mean, if I want to harvest as much bloodroot, a native [00:17:56] plant, as I want, I can destroy that plant population. ANDREW: Sure. REBECCA: So, it's just so . . . And, like, to me, saying all or nothing is never the right answer because harvesting invasives is actually beneficial to the environment, because it frees up space for more native [00:18:11] plants. ANDREW: Yeah. I love dandelion. REBECCA: Me too! ANDREW: And you know, there's another one, like there's just, you know, I could never get rid of it in my garden, even if I tried probably. So, the amount that I can [00:18:26] take of that is basically everything that's showing, any time I want, and it just, you know, give it two or three weeks and boom, they're back again with another crop. REBECCA: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: You know, so, yeah. REBECCA: And those plants have followed us from Europe here and [00:18:41] from Asia and from all the different places that all the different people that live on this continent now come from and it's the story of the colonization of this continent is evident in our plant life. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: And it marks the times that all the different people have come over here. And [00:18:56] all the different trading has occurred. You know, kudzu came over, I think, in the 30s and 40s for the World's Fair, as an erosion control plant and a crop for animals to eat, because it's very good for horses and cows and pigs and chickens and [00:19:11] [laughs] and people to eat, it's fine protein. So, I just think, you know, focusing on harvesting invasive plants and plants that are abundant is a great way to ask the question: Is this sustainable? And also know that you will never know the answer. ANDREW: Uh huh. REBECCA: A lot of: plant [00:19:26] world are like, "I know the truth!" And you're like, you do? That's . . . Okay. I see you're very confident in yourself. Because we're always finding new things out, and ecology is just like folk magic or any magic spiritual tradition, always changing. ANDREW: For sure. And also, you [00:19:41] know, with climate change. REBECCA: Oh, yes. ANDREW: Like, I think that that's another thing that comes into this where it's like, we might have an idea based on, you know, our experiences or our lifetime or you know, maybe even like our parents' or grandparents' lifetime, [00:19:56] but, things are changing a lot now. And you know, that's going to change what, what all these plants do it, you know, and and also, you know all these, you know, continuously there are new plants being introduced and shifting back and forth [00:20:11] and all that kind of stuff, right? So. It's such a dynamic system. REBECCA: Dynamic is such a good word to describe it. And I think, you know, once again, it's so funny. Like I even feel fear saying like: Invasive plants. Harvest them. Because you know, it's like, it's tough. People have very strong opinions [00:20:26] about how plants are to be managed and a lot of very good and important hard questions come up around that. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: But the thing is, we do need to eat and heal ourselves from illness. ANDREW: Yeah. REBECCA: Most of those things can [00:20:41] be done with a lot of the invasive plants. And that's not to say I never harvest native plants. Like I use poke a lot, which is a native plant, but most people think it's a noxious weed. They'll say, oh, that's a weed. ANDREW: Sure. REBECCA: It's not, it's a native plant. It's, you know, it's just [00:20:56] funny that people are like oh, this horrible weed. And I'm like, what are you talking about? ANDREW: Well, it's true. It's like, you know, so a bunch of the plants that grow around here, that I use often in my religious practice, [00:21:11] you know, purslane, you know, stuff like that. You just find them growing out of the sidewalk, right? Like, in the city, it's, you know, you just, you go down the back lane way and you're like, oh look, you know, here's this one and that one [00:21:26] and you know, and they're just growing up between cracks in the cement and wherever, because those, those really hardy, you know, aggressive plants, you know, one, they have a lot of strength magically, you [00:21:41] know, in a general way, I think. But, but, two, they, you know, they're, they're everywhere and again, they're the kinds of things where it's like, you know, you don't take it all but also, even if you did, they're so resilient, like, people are [00:21:56] trying to get rid of them all the time and they cannot, you know, so yeah, it's very interesting. REBECCA: Yeah, and that's a great way too, to find places to forage. I talk to a lot of farmer friends and I'll say, you know, I love dandelion root . . . ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: For its liver medicine. And it [00:22:11] definitely is, you know, is a plant I feel is aligned with the element of air, it's very good for spirit work and communication, but also not toxic so you can use it with impunity in some ways. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: And call my friends and say, hey, do you mind if I bring my apprentices and our trowels out and we'll dig some dandelion [00:22:26] at your house. And they're always like, oh come on over. Or you call people in, you know, and they're like, oh, come on over. So we go to different farms and kind of weed them. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: And then we go home with all the things that we want. It's a great symbiotic relationship. [laughs] ANDREW: For sure. Yeah, I have [00:22:41] raised beds in my, in my garden . . . REBECCA: Oh! ANDREW: And then the rest of it is this sort of crummy hard pack, you know, dirt that's . . . whatever was like, you know, when [00:22:56] they built it, they filled in because we're over a parking garage, right? And yeah, it's, all the stuff that grows there is all wonderful energetically. And you know, dandelion, and plantain, and you know, like all that kind of stuff. It's like we [00:23:11] would just go out in the yard and my kids are like, you know, they go ahead and pick a bunch and come back and make salad out of it and all that kind of stuff, you know, because it's there, and it's useful if you know what you're looking at, right? REBECCA: Kids are so good at learning plants. I teach a lot of children. People bring their kids on our foraging tours [00:23:26] and they always, at the end of the tour, can recite every plant we met. And the parents are like, oh, what was that one? And the kids are like, you know, it's bitter, hairy bittercress and I'm like, oh good job. [laughs] ANDREW: Yeah. REBECCA: They know everything. And they'll remember all the uses. They're so good. ANDREW: That's amazing. [00:23:41] So, I'm curious, because you've mentioned this a couple times now. Is the sort of, you said, I'm afraid to talk about this. I'm afraid to talk about that. REBECCA: Yeah! [laughs] ANDREW: What . . . [00:23:56] tell me about the reservation. Like . . . REBECCA: Yeah! ANDREW: What, what is it that you run into around that? REBECCA: Well, I think a lot of it come up recently for me with my fumatory herbs class. I got a lot of really mean aggressive and [00:24:11] I would even say violent communications around me daring to suggest to folks of non-North American indigenous ancestry that maybe they shouldn't burn white sage with impunity. And I [00:24:26] think, I tried to say this compassionately and patiently as I could, I tried not to use attacking language. I called my, you know, my own self and my own shortcomings into the conversation, because I make mistakes constantly. I don't know the right answers. I'm just guessing. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: I'm just trying, you know? [00:24:41] ANDREW: Yeah. REBECCA: And I . . . the venom with which strangers will write to me is horrific, and it's funny because, you see this over and over again, on Internet communications. Because when I taught my class in person, I was terrified that people would yell at me . . . [00:24:56] ANDREW: Sure. REBECCA: There would be fighting in the class. Like I was afraid it would be really bad. I had probably 40 people show up to this class. It was incredible. People were compassionate and patient. Nobody got a millimetre out of line. ANDREW: Yeah. REBECCA: And [00:25:11] just like, I thought that was the case, but I'm so glad to see this is true. And everybody was just building together. Asking questions. Even if someone didn't understand something, no one was like well, you're an idiot for not understanding this complicated concept. [00:25:26] And I just appreciated how kind people were to each other and I see that that's the case. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: You know but online when you're anonymous . . . ANDREW: Definitely. Yeah. REBECCA: And that's where it comes from for me because I just see other herbalists and I'm [00:25:41] often holding myself back in my work, I think, because I'm terrified to make mistakes and hurt people. But it also prevents me from sharing more information, or you know, providing access to education to more folks that want it. ANDREW: Yeah. I totally get that. You know? REBECCA: You feel [00:25:56] that way? ANDREW: I . . . last fall, I had made an Orisha Tarot deck with . . . that got published through Llewellyn. And so, it's basically everywhere. And--which [00:26:11] is great--and the amount of apprehension I had about being an outsider, about, you know, even, even with the blessings of my ancestors, or like, my elders, my ancestors, the spirits through divination, like, even with [00:26:26] all those things, there's just like "ohhh, man," like waiting for that, that, you know, potential thing, right? And sometimes you get it and sometimes you don't, right? And definitely online is a place where it's way more likely, because online people [00:26:42] . . . Be kind, people, just be kind! I'm sure nobody listening to this podcast is mean online. REBECCA: [chuckles] ANDREW: But, yeah, but, but, that apprehension, right? And then also that realization, now that it's out there, that how much people [00:26:57] are benefiting from it, you know, and how much people are, you know, telling me how grateful they are that I made this offering, you know, to the world and whatever. And I think that it's such a delicate line . . . REBECCA: Yeah. ANDREW: For, for us, [00:27:12] for people doing work, for people offering teaching, you know, and that, there's so many people out there who are just like, "Rah, rah, rah, do your thing, screw everybody, give no fucks, whatever" and I'm always like, that's horrible. Like, let's not be like [00:27:27] that! That's not useful. REBECCA: [laughs] Yeah! ANDREW: But then also there's like so many people doing good work like, you know, what you're up to, where it's, there's also that like, "Oh, should I? How's it going to go? What's gonna happen? I don't know," you know? REBECCA: Yeah. ANDREW: And, [00:27:42] and, and it's real, you know, that tension is really real. And I think that so many people experience it around their work and stuff. You know, how do you find your way through it? REBECCA: I think a lot of it is, I try to use, [00:27:57] like I am an incredibly privileged person. You know? ANDREW: Yeah. REBECCA: I'm a large able-bodied white tall physically able person, who can appear heterosexual in certain situations. [laughs] And I . . . And [00:28:12] feminine, you know, and it's . . . So I can use those things to leverage messages and voices that are erased and largely unheard in my friends' communities, especially my indigenous friends. And I do a lot of work with [00:28:27] with the Catawba Indian nation. And the . . . I'm hoping to do some more with the Cherokee Nation around ethnobotany. And reestablishing control over the knowledge of foraging to the people who taught it to my ancestors here. [00:28:42] And I think it's kind of crazy that me, as a European-ancestored-person, am going and teaching indigenous people how to forage, because their own knowledge was erased from them, through genocide. And it's, to me, like acknowledging those things, and like [00:28:57] when we come together as people in the real world and real life, together, me and my friends and those nations, we can create pretty amazing things. And we talk about really hard, uncomfortable, scary stuff and it's tough. You know? It's hard. It brings up a lot for both of us. But [00:29:12] instead of allowing it to paralyze us and prevent us, we're like, what can we build from the space? Like, where do we go forward? Let's acknowledge these things, talk about the hard stuff, the history, the harm caused by my ancestors, and let's [00:29:27] build something new from that. You know? ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: And I think that's really tough. It's because we don't know what to do. None of us really know. And for me, like constantly giving word, voice, accolade, and when I have extra resources, [00:29:42] putting my resources towards the people whose land this was and is, still. That to me is what I can do. And I know that's not what everyone would say is the best way but for me, I know, I don't . . . Unfortunately, being [00:29:57] a Appalachian folk magical practitioner is definitely not a great way to make a lot of money . . . BOTH: [laughing] REBECCA: I don't have a ton of resources and I have a lot of debt. ANDREW: Uh-huh. REBECCA: But I have a lot of non-monetary resources, like access to academic information. [00:30:12] So I do a lot of research for my friends who don't have access to journals. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: And I give them, you know, my university, don't tell my university I give them my login. ANDREW: Nobody from university is listening, it's fine. REBECCA: I know. They're not. Don't worry. But just finding ways to constantly figure [00:30:27] out like, okay, who am I speaking for? How can I help make space for others to speak and how can I make my resources available to them that are most helpful? And not what I think is most helpful, but what they need. ANDREW: Yeah. I think that part about asking [00:30:42] people what they need? I mean, I think it's such a such a piece that gets overlooked so often in any kind of restorative approach. REBECCA: Yes! ANDREW: Right? REBECCA: Restorative, yeah. ANDREW: That, like, say you're sorry, like whatever [00:30:57] it was, personal thing, you know, a generational thing or whatever, say, "Hey, I'm really sorry this happened, and then ask, like, "Is there something you need? Is there something that, that you think that I might be able to do that you need?" And then you can really [00:31:12] see where the conversation goes, right? Because I find so often people make these apologies or, you know, like, you know, I mean, again, maybe I'm being judgmental about people who are raging against you about using white [00:31:27] sage online, but I'm like, listen, just start with an apology, or just start with saying, "Huh. Well, what could I do instead. What might make sense?" You know? And maybe, maybe there are people, and probably there are people, who a hundred percent like have a deep deep connection [00:31:42] to that plant? Or, you know, like the white sage plant. Or there are lots of ways in which you can procure stuff sustainably, if you want to. REBECCA: Yeah. ANDREW: Like, you know. I got some stuff here. There's a new farmer in [00:31:57] Ontario who started growing stuff. You know, he got laid off from his job and he started expanding what he was already farming for himself, and it's great. You know, it's local, it's organic. It's . . . You know, it's sustainably harvested because [00:32:12] he's farming it himself, right? You know, it's great. REBECCA: Yeah. ANDREW: Right? So like there's lots of options but being mad about it. That's not, like, that doesn't help anybody and . . . REBECCA: Yeah, they don't like being told they can't do something. People are mad at me for saying . . . And I didn't say that. I said, "Hey, [00:32:27] maybe listen to indigenous people." ANDREW: Yeah. REBECCA: And too, look at how this plant is now entering threatened status. And like, these are two things that are very important for different reasons. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And, and I think too, you know, I mean, it's [00:32:42] always something that's very interesting to me, because my approach to working with plants, outside of my traditional stuff, which I learned from my elders, is I go for walks in the ravine, you know, or in the the forest in the valley here or [00:32:57] even in the lane ways. And, when I find a plant, like something'll grab my attention. And I'll be like, "Huh? What are you? What's going on?" And I'll just sit down and hang out with it for a while. REBECCA: Yeah. ANDREW: And, you [00:33:12] know, none of those plants are mad. I've yet to find an angry plant. You know? I mean, like, that kind of like, conflicty energy, you know. Even, even plants that are in competition with each [00:33:27] other or whatever, I never have that feeling from them, that they have that aggressiveness, you know? And I think that it's an interesting thing to sort of ask yourself when you're working with plants. Like, what is the energy of this plant, [00:33:42] and how am I aligned with it? And how are my feelings aligned with it? And what's going on from there? You know? I don't know, does that make any sense to you? REBECCA: Oh, definitely. And I think . . . I totally agree with you. And I was talking to a friend the other day and he's like, "How do we separate [00:33:57] the spiritual from the political?" And I was like, "I don't think we can, and I don't think we should, at this point, but I think I see why people want to." They say, "Oh, can we just leave politics out of it?" ANDREW: Sure. REBECCA: Like well, that would be great. But unfortunately, with [00:34:12] the way things are, we can't. And it's . . . there's, you know, a lot of Internet explosions around things like that. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: Because people are like, "Well, you, don't bring up politics at this event." And it's like, well, you can't talk about plants or harvesting [00:34:27] or medicine and magic and not talk about the people it's come from, how we know about it. ANDREW: Yeah. REBECCA: And the story of how we got to this point. And it's . . . We need to do better as you know, as a community, especially, you know, in the white herbal world and [00:34:42] white practitioners need to do better about being open to like, talking about hard stuff and realizing it doesn't mean they have to fling themselves off a cliff. [laughs] You know? ANDREW: For sure, right? Yeah. REBECCA: You know, sometimes people think that's what people are asking of them, and it's like no one is asking you to fling yourself off a cliff. Maybe some people are, but you [00:34:57] don't have to do that. And it's just about being able to say like, whoa, what's the real story of how I got this information? ANDREW: Yeah. REBECCA: And you know, the real story of when I harvest poke, I know what poke's medicinal uses are because indigenous and African [00:35:12] folks told my ancestors those things. So I need to, every time I work with that plant, I think about that. And I don't think about it in a negative or combative way. I think, like you're saying, I think about it in a, like, thank you, gratitude. ANDREW: Yeah. REBECCA: A building. ANDREW: [00:35:27] Yeah. I don't think we can ever separate. . . I mean, yeah, I don't think we can really ever separate or ought to, as you say, at this time, separate politics from our spirituality. You know, I think that that that makes no sense at all [00:35:42] to me and even historically, you know . . . REBECCA: Yeah. [laughs] ANDREW: You know, you look at a lot of, like the the stories of the Orishas going back, you know? So many of them demarcate political shifts in power and other kinds of things that [00:35:57] are, that are historical, you know? This group came in. They took over this, this region. They deposed the kind of person who was in charge. And the spirit that that person, you know, was most aligned with got a new story, where they [00:36:12] got demoted somehow because of something, right? Or what have you, you know? There's a lot of that. And, it's why, when I wrote the book that goes to my deck, I included the politics, a bunch of politics, all through it and even a chapter in the front that's . . . The, the header is like, why are there [00:36:27] politics in this book? And you know, and it's like, there's a few pages on like why, why I wanted to, you know, really make sure I was engaging in honoring some of that political content because it's true of the religion, it's true of [00:36:42] the world, and it's true for people who are living in the world and using these tools or these plants or whatever. We're all running into politics all the time, you know? And so I thought the idea that we could free ourselves from that somehow is, I [00:36:58] don't know, reminds me very much of like the Golden Dawn notion of like . . . REBECCA: [laughs] ANDREW: We'll get back to like the one true history behind all of the movement of the last, you know, thousands of years since Egypt and we'll, you know, access pure spiritual being or whatever. It's like no. That [00:37:13] doesn't exist. You know? REBECCA: I think you're so right. That was really well said and I totally agree. And I . . . it's . . . to me, I don't want to shame the, like when I hang out with a lot of hippies in Asheville and they're like, we're one human family. I'm like, we are, you're right and it's . . . it's great. [00:37:28] We're all humans. We have these shared human experiences. But within that human experience, my experience is very different than my friend who's, you know, Latinx or a person of color or disabled or a differently [00:37:43] abled or you know, blind or deaf or like anybody that experiences the world and and the, unfortunately, the baggage that the world puts upon them, in our culture . . . ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: The different reasons and the different oppressions that people experience. [00:37:58] I don't understand the . . . Like, for me it's difficult to understand when people are like, let's just pretend that things don't exist, because it's hard! ANDREW: Sure. REBECCA: To deal with and it's hard when you don't experience a lot of those things, to be compassionate enough to say, what would it be like? What . . . How can I put [00:38:13] myself in that person's shoes? ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: And be compassionate to them, and be like, wow, you have had it way more difficult than me. And that doesn't mean that once again, I need to jump off a cliff, but it means I need to be aware of how I move through the world and who I'm stepping [00:38:28] on, who I'm profiting off of . . . ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: And who I'm supporting in the way that they would like to be supported, not the way I think they should be supported. ANDREW: For sure. REBECCA: And like you said, I don't . . . I always tell my students, I'm like, I don't know the answers. I have no idea what I'm talking about. I'm just . . . [laughs] I [00:38:43] do have some idea. But I'm guessing and I'm list-, trying to listen to my friends, and what their needs actually are, and I make mistakes. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: And I have to be sorry, like you said, and then ask, what do you, what word did you use, recon-, not [00:38:58] reconstructed, but re- . . . You used a great word to kind of describe that asking somebody, what can I do? What do you need from me? ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: To- . . . true apology. ANDREW: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I can't remember right now, but you can rewind and listen to it later. [laughs] REBECCA: [00:39:13] Well, that word, you know . . . ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: And that concept of . . . That to me is so integral in our in our work, especially with plants. It's so complicated. And like I said, many people will either say, "Right on," you know, or say "Wow, [00:39:28] she's a crazy communist," you know, or "Wow, she's actually horrible and she shouldn't harvest any plans at all." And I know, at some point, I want everyone to like me . . . [laughs] You know, I want everyone . . . I'm a very people-pleasing person, being socialized female growing up, you [00:39:43] know, I always want to make everyone happy and feel safe. Also quadruple Cancer here. ANDREW: Wow, that's a lot of Cancer. It's a lot of Cancer. The struggle is real, eh? REBECCA: A real struggle but, I've got a lot of fire too. So it's hard to find out . . . ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: What to truly do about that. [00:39:58] But I think what you've said, like, and the way you handled it in your book . . . There . . . People will be mad at us, no matter what we do in life and dislike us and that's okay. ANDREW: Yeah. REBECCA: Looking for places who are causing real harm. That's to me more important than dealing with people who are on the Internet screaming. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: Real [00:40:13] purpose. [laughs] ANDREW: Yeah, for sure. Yeah, people can, people can do whatever they want on the Internet. It's fine. It's the Internet. I mean, it'd be great if people were kinder, but well, it's the Internet. So. [laughs] So that's the modern monster we've created right? Now, it's [00:40:28] funny, I've been . . . So, I guess, I have a question for you and then we will wrap up because you know, we've been on the phone for a while here, which has been super fun and we could probably talk for a long time. But so, my [00:40:43] question is: If you were to pick a plant or maybe a couple plants, that you think their energy harmonizes with kind of what we've been talking about here. What, what plant would that be, for you, for somebody [00:40:58] to get to know, you know, on an energetic level or whatever level makes sense, you know? REBECCA: Yeah, that's such a good question. I think, for me, one of my most patron plants is mugwort, Artemisia vulgaris. ANDREW: Uh huh. REBECCA: And [00:41:13] it-- [laughs] Most gardeners in my town will be like, I hate mugwort, because it has running rootless, and it goes all over the place . . . ANDREW: Yeah. REBECCA: And it's a weed. But mugwort has been used historically all over the world as a banishing herb. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: The way that [00:41:28] many like new age folks use white sage now, which is not really its intended purpose, is what I've been told . . . ANDREW: Mm-hmm. REBECCA: By different folks and you can read a lot more about that by actual indigenous people online. If you want to look up the original uses [00:41:43] of white sage, I'd encourage you to do that. But mugwort, whether burned or even just hung up as a bundle, was used to keep away evil, to cleanse things, to remove disease-causing spirits, and in Asia, as well as North America and Europe, [00:41:58] and now it's naturalized. It's not native. It's naturalized all over the United States in lots of different species. And they're fragrant. They're edible, medicinal, important plants and I invite you to meet mugwort. And especially if [00:42:13] you have German ancestry, it was one of most important fumic plants of the German folks, which my last name means "from Bavaria." So, as you can imagine, that's some of the stuff I focus on in my work, but I invite people that to meet mugwort, because when you harvest it, you're weeding [00:42:28] out an invasive plant, you can make all types of food and medicine, and I have a post on my blog about the history of its magical uses, if people are curious with it. ANDREW: We'll include a link in the show notes, for sure. That's awesome. Yeah, mugwort's [00:42:43] a really great one. You know, it's funny. It's amusing. I don't know. I don't even know what the right word is. I'm always surprised at how hard a sell it is to people sometimes? When other things are just such an [00:42:58] easy sell, right? REBECCA: Yeah. ANDREW: But, but now I'm just going to be like, you know, look, Rebecca says you should use this one. I'll there put a little sign above the . . . You know, your face, saying, "Get this one!" right where we sell it in the shop. [laughs] Yeah. Yeah, [00:43:13] the one that I leaned on a lot through, through that kind of like journeys with this stuff was, was actually was dandelion. REBECCA: Hmm. ANDREW: You know, it's a sort of like, you know, partly because of its notion of like, that deep [00:43:28] taproot as sort of staying deeply grounded in my own practice and being really really like grounded in what I do. Partly, you know, because of, like even though people see it as a weed, the beauty of its flower, right? That sort of like [00:43:43] offering of a radiance to the world throughout what I'm trying to do with my work, and also because it's, you know, often used for like detoxifying and stuff like that, that sort of like inner cleanse. It's like, I've got to root out this stuff, that's conditioning and [00:43:58] cultural baggage and other things, so that I can be more authentic to myself and what I need to be doing, you know? So that was definitely one that I leaned down a lot. You know, last year, especially through the summer time, [00:44:13] whenever I was like, feeling, feeling that worry about what was going to happen when the thing came out. I was like, all right, let's go out in the garden, dig up some dandelions, make some tea, or like hang out with them, or put a put a bunch of them on the table for a while or whatever, you know, so. [00:44:28] REBECCA: Yeah. ANDREW: Yeah, for sure. REBECCA: That's amazing. I love that. Thanks for sharing that with me. ANDREW: Yeah! So, for people who want to check out what you're up to, and people should definitely check out what you're up to. Where do they find you? Where . . . [00:44:43] what are you up to, where are you hanging out online right now? REBECCA: Where do I lurk? Well, I have a website and an Instagram account called Blood and Spicebush. And my website is BloodandSpicebush.com. Spicebush is one of my favorite native plants and a blood cleanser, [00:44:58] hence the name of my website! And I also run a small folk herbalism school with my friend Abby Artemisia, called Sassafras School. And you can find us at Sassafras-School.com. And we have a few more spaces left in our yearlong [00:45:13] program on folk medicine and wild foods, as we're both female botanists and foragers and medicinal practitioners. So, we're excited to share that, because there's lots of amazing clinical herb programs, but we've seen there wasn't really any folk [00:45:28] program. So we decided to give it a go and see how that goes. ANDREW: Nice. That's awesome. Amazing. And you're going to be in Hamilton this summer, for folks who are local to the shop. So, you know, we'll put a link in for where you can find that as well in the notes, [00:45:43] but, Rebecca's going to be up in up in our part of the world a little bit where the shop is, so. REBECCA: End of June. Yeah. ANDREW: End of June, yeah. Well, thank you so much for being on. It's been a wonderful chatting with you. Thank you. REBECCA: It was a pleasure. Thank you.
The Hermit's Lamp Podcast - A place for witches, hermits, mystics, healers, and seekers
Enrique and Andrew catch up on what the birds are saying. They talk about the effect of living with an oracle versus reading and oracle. The conversation winds through ideas of how being in tune wit the oracles impact their relationship with the rest of life. Finally they end by answering listeners questions. Episode 13, Poetry, Magic, and Ice Cream, and episode 63 [00:00:30], Definitions and Silence. Think about how much you've enjoyed the podcast and how many episodes you listened to, and consider if it is time to support the Patreon You can do so here. If you want more of this in your life you can subscribe by RSS , iTunes, Stitcher, or email. If you'd like to connect with Enrique go check him out on Facebook here. Thanks for joining the conversation. Please share the podcast to help us grow and change the world. Andrew You can book time with Andrew through his site here. Transcription ANDREW: [00:00:00] Hello, my friends, welcome to The Hermit's Lamp podcast. I wanted to let you know that the new intro music here was composed by my daughter, Claire. I hope you dig it. I certainly am loving on her creativity. Also, this is episode 91 with Enrique Enriquez. And if you have not caught our past conversations, you should go check them out: Episode 13, Poetry, Magic, and Ice Cream, and episode 63 [00:00:30], Definitions and Silence. Both available in the archives, either on the website or in your podcast catcher. [new music!] Speaker 2: [00:01:00] Let me start by saying thank you to all the Patreons who support this podcast in general, and specifically help the process of providing transcripts of every episode to the public so that anybody for any reason can access all this wonderful information. Those fine people are getting access to great bonus material and they make this happen. If you are listening to this podcast, think about how many episodes you've listened to, how much you've appreciated it [00:01:30], and please consider heading on over to Patreon.com/TheHermitsLamp, and pitching something in to continue supporting this work. It is truly a situation where every dollar helps. Welcome back to The Hermit's Lamp podcast. I'm here today with Enrique Enriquez, who is a card reader, poet, and artist, and you know was featured in a wonderful movie called Tarology, which [00:02:00] you can find on many places online right now. [Here's the trailer on YouTube: https://youtu.be/A5UR3VesQGo] This is the third time that Enrique has been on the show, and if you haven't checked out the other episodes, check the show notes for them. I'll provide links, so people can go back and hear our previous conversations. Enrique, for people who are meeting you for the first time, who are you? What are you about? What's going on? ENRIQUE: Well, you know, the other day I went to a bookstore that is across the street. And first of all, Andrew, it's always [00:02:30] so good to hear you and always so good to talk to you. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: But anyway, you know, I have this book store across the street and I went there. And there was this voice, they were doing something on the floor, I was talking to the guy. And then as I was about to leave, the woman on the floor stood up to say, "Wait!" and then I turn around and say, "What?" And say, "Are you the guy who talks like a bird?" And I say, "Yes, as a matter of fact [00:03:00], I am," and she say, "Yes, a friend told me about you," and I . . . That made me very happy, you know? ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: So, I guess, I am the man who speaks like a bird. ANDREW: Excellent. ENRIQUE: And at the moment, that seems to be plenty. ANDREW: I think that's wonderful. I mean, for me, listening to the birds and, and trying to speak with them is definitely one of my, one of my favorite things these days. You know, I've been spending, for [00:03:30] years now, really spending a lot of time trying to engage with them, and more and more over time I've found myself drawn deeper and deeper into . . . into the world of birds. So yeah, it's wonderful. ENRIQUE: Yes. Yeah, if you know, I suspect that birds are some sort of [Amic? Homic?] knowledge religion that is universal. I only know one person, a friend of mine, who says that birds are jerks and he hates birds. And [00:04:00] he say, "I know you like birds, but I hate birds," and but also always ... ANDREW: (laughing) That's a lot of strong feeling for birds! ENRIQUE: Yes, exactly. ANDREW: Why does he hate birds? ENRIQUE: Yes, but usually, I don't know, I mean, I guess, we said, you know, a bird is somehow that the embodiment of a long [garbled at 4:28] We [00:04:30] look at a bird, we think of birds, we listen to birds. You know, it's just about survival. They go around trying to find something to eat. There is no, no Romanticism in this view of birds, which is fine. I mean, I think it's a great exception, because usually as soon as you . . . You know, the other day, I was talking to . . . having a beer with these poets, a poet from Turkey and a poet from New Zealand and [00:05:00] they asked me, "What do you think about Trump?" And I told him what I believe, which is that Trump has no place in my reality. I don't care. And then, as soon as I mentioned birds, they told me all kinds of fantastic stories about their own relationship with birds. And about 45 minutes into the conversation, I say, "See, that's why I don't think about Trump." ANDREW: Right. ENRIQUE: I mean, there are better things to talk about, your, your mind. [00:05:30] Yes, so I think that that that's how, birds account for that common longing we have, for some sort of transcendence that I don't want to, I don't want to put a name to it. But then when you actually make a bird sound, you realize that you are, you are enacting this form that is at once transparent and opaque, you know, because you're not really saying anything, and even so, everybody understands you. ANDREW: Mmm. ENRIQUE: So I end up realizing [00:06:00] that I like to speak like a bird, and that basically means that since the beginning of this summer I started actually recording myself using all these bird calls, like these wooden artifacts or metal artifacts that imitate the sound of birds, and then sending my friends bird messages instead of text or voice messages, right? And by speaking like a bird, what I actually accomplish is, I avoid misunderstandings. ANDREW: Mmm. ENRIQUE: Everybody [00:06:31] seems to understand the form of a bird sound. ANDREW: I like it. I feel like we must have talked about this on the podcast previously. You know, in the Orisha tradition, Osain, who is . . . He's responsible for all the knowledge of all the plants and all the magic that comes from that. He's sort of the wizard who lives in the forest, who's been . . . ENRIQUE: Beautiful. ANDREW: Broken down and, you know, scarred [00:07:01] by various conflicts and battles he's had over the years, and Osain speaks like a bird. And you know, when we . . . when we do certain ceremonies and we sing, there are . . . There are these parts where we sing, where we're singing not any words, but just to imitate the sound of the birds and to acknowledge the way in which Osain speaks to us, right? ENRIQUE: Ah, that's fantastic. ANDREW: Yeah, so, you know ... You're in [00:07:31] good company. ENRIQUE: Yes, of course, and, no, it's amazing when you start looking into it, that the amount of effort and time that people have put into trying to imitate birds or talk like birds or understand birds, through history. And there is a, just as you say, there was a sort of pre-Koranic poetry that was all based on imitating the cooing of a mourning dove. And then you have the same in New Guinea. There is a tribe there that all their poetry is [00:08:01] based on the idea of imitating the cooing of a mourning dove, that wailing sound. But, I mean, there are countless examples and, of course, thousands of poems about birds, but I guess I . . . Something clicked or shifted this summer. So, I started working with that because I understood that the moment I started sending these bird sounds to people, I went from somebody who could interpret signs [00:08:31] to somebody who was just delivering signs, so they became the interpreters, they were the ones telling me: "Yes. Thank you. I really needed this today." Or, like happened the other day with this, this man. He sent me a recording of a bird that he hears out of the window and then I just mimicked it. I just imitated the same . . . I sent him back the same thing, but I made it and then he say, "Oh, I love yours because I can hear my own name in it." ANDREW: (chuckling) ENRIQUE: And [00:09:01] you know. And that, like a friend from Finland who say, you know, "Birds are only quiet when there are earthquakes or tsunamis or something horrible is about to happen." ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: "So whenever I hear your bird voice, I just feel that everything is okay." And to me that's . . . I mean in a sense, yeah, something shifted, because I think that, in a sense, turning the other person into the auger, into the interpreter, it [00:09:31] has something to do with the idea of an oracle as something that should poetize life instead of giving answers. ANDREW: Well, and I think that, you know, let's be honest about, you know . . . I mean, I won't even bring my clients into this, about myself. There are times where I go to the oracle, hoping that the oracle will tell me that everything's going to be okay. And, you know, the prospect of thinking that well, as long as . . . as long as I can hear the birdsong, [00:10:01] or as long as I can go into my, my messenger and find a note of you playing, and play that song, the answer is the birds are singing, there's no tsunami. There's no earthquake. ENRIQUE: Exactly. ANDREW: There's no predator here, right? You're good. Take it easy. (laughs) ENRIQUE: Exactly. That's exactly one of the ways of seeing it, yes. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: And, so, yeah, it has been a really, you know, at some point I started to suspect or to . . . Or maybe I decided [00:10:31] to start acting as if all these enterprises of divination, as if we already got it backwards. . . ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: You know, and usually we have this idea of this image of the person, the reader, the diviner, who's sitting waiting for the client or the, you know, consultant to come. And then I decided, no, it should be the other way around, right? Because in . . . I was reading The Iliad, you know, and there is this moment, which is a rather irrelevant moment, [00:11:01] when it is said that when a person arrives to the city, he fills everybody with excitement because of course, there is still the potential of what this person may be bringing, you know, news, things, a weird fruit, something, right? ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: And then I thought about that in relationship with angels, and the idea of the angel. And of course, angel is a word that comes from a Greek word for messenger, [00:11:31] right? So, the idea of the messenger. The messenger brings news, like the birds that come and, as you say, everything is okay. The birds are singing. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: Or look over there, because the bird, you know, flew that way. So, I decided, I think it's better to become the angel, or to imitate, you know, dreams and angels, which are the only oracles that actually visit people. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: And obliterate the reading on the table and just be . . . appear on people's lives and [00:12:01] then disappear, which is something you can now do, thanks to all these little gadgets we have, and social media, and all that, so you can really become, or have, a virtual presence. So that's where I am at now. ANDREW: You've become the psychopomp, right? ENRIQUE: Yeah, somehow, yeah in a sense. It's this idea of . . . I mean, I . . . You know, I am a witness, and I look at things, you [00:12:31] know, and, at some point, I guess I . . . what I understand is that I, in terms of giving answers to people, solving people's problems, giving them solutions, healing, all that stuff. I don't do that. I don't know how to do that. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: But I know how to pay attention. I know how to be a witness. So, at some point it may be that I find a place and form. Right? I look at something that is worth [garbled] or worth sharing and then [00:13:01] maybe that sound, that word, that form could be the answer to somebody's question or the solution to somebody's problem. It could even bring some sort of healing to them, but it's not me. It's not me doing it. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: It's . . . They are the ones interpreting the sign. ANDREW: Well, and I think that . . . You know, I think that one of the things that's really interesting and that, you know, I certainly appreciate about you and about all of our dialogues because, [00:13:31] you know, I think that the delivering of more concrete messages is also great and it's a thing that I certainly enjoy. But I'm also really interested in this space where, where we, revoke the expectation of meaning in a concrete way. You know? And like, I made this deck earlier in the year, which I shared with you when I was in New York, you know, the Land of the Sacred Self Oracle. ENRIQUE: Yes. ANDREW: And you know, I created . . . [00:14:02] I initially wanted to say nothing about it. And like, I was like, I just want to make it and put it out there. But everybody, almost everybody that I talked to was like, "I don't know what I'm . . . I don't know what to do with this. So, I need you to tell me stuff." And I was like, "All right." So, I created this course for it and . . . which is, which is now, it's just basically a PDF. And the first lesson is, these images are nothing but ink on paper, [00:14:32] they don't mean anything. They have no concrete meaning in and of themselves. What do you actually see? You know? Because I think that leading people back to themselves is so profound and so powerful. ENRIQUE: Yes. ANDREW: And so, against the nature of our culture, right? The nature of . . . ENRIQUE: Yes. ANDREW: . . . the Modern Age, right? ENRIQUE: Well, but that . . . What is interesting about that is that, that is exactly what contemporary art brought about. ANDREW: Right. [00:15:02] ENRIQUE: You know? All . . . today, beginning of the 20th century, art basically showcased a common narrative and that could be . . . You know, you go to Italy to see all these paintings of the Virgin Mary or Christ, or the, the, you know, the Book of Genesis or whatever. You have this idea of okay, we all understand what we are seeing because we share these references. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: And then came, you know, Malevich or Kandinsky [00:15:32] or even Donald Judd or all these people and say, "No, now you have the possibility to understand that thing before you on your own terms." ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: And that's exactly what you're saying. Forget about what that is for the other person standing next to you. What is that to you? And of course, we still abhor that, I mean, most people put a lot of resistance to that, because they want to be told what it is. One is . . . like the other day, I had this, you know, I had [00:16:02] been reading the cards this woman finds out on the sidewalk. I have talked to you about this. For more than 10 years. And I stopped the other day because she, she sent me a card, and I told her about Nikolai Gogol, the Russian writer, and I . . . There is this wonderful little book a friend gave me about the dreams of Joseph Cornell. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: So, this woman pulled out all the dreams of Joseph Cornell [00:16:32] from his diary. And the amazing thing is that when you read his dreams you realize that they are not extraordinary in any way, right? ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: Which is beautiful, because you realize the dreams are these material things available to all of us and a plumber can have dreams that are as extraordinary as the dreams of a fantastic artist as Joseph Cornell. But what was really interesting is at the end . . . She also wrote about all these people that Cornell was influenced by. [00:17:02] Not in terms of his work, but in terms of his relationship to dreams. And that I found fascinating. He had like the lineage of others like Blaise Pascal or you know, Freud. And then he spoke, or he took notice of Nikolai Gogol, and there was this rich lady who wrote to Gogol, saying, "Can you please interpret this dream for me?" Right? ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: And Gogol wrote back and say, "Only your soul can tell you what the dream means." ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: "Don't [00:17:32] ask any wise man, because they won't tell you. They are not able to. They won't be able to say what it means. You have to find a quiet space. You have to. Within yourself you will find the meaning of the dream." So, I said that to this woman, right, who had sent me a little card she found somewhere. And she got enraged. She told me, "No, you have the obligation of telling me what it means." Because of course, we don't want to be within ourself. That's a . . . [00:18:02] It's a . . . it's a very tall order. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: And, in theory, we don't have time, right? We are always under this imaginary constraint of time. And she said that "You have the obligation of telling me." Of course, I dropped communication immediately because I feel I have no obligation. I have two kids, that's obligations enough. ANDREW: Yeah. ENRIQUE: Other than that, you know. But in a sense, I understand, there is a . . . what you're saying, in terms [00:18:32] of your own deck. I mean, people have an extraordinary resistance of coming to terms with their own experience, because actually, most people are looking for mythology, not for experience. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: You know. They want a little story. They don't want an experience. ANDREW: Well, and exactly. You know, and I . . . a friend of mine who I was sharing the art with as I was making it, you know, they would have this reaction where they would be obviously fascinated by it, and then . . . But they'd be like, [00:19:02] "But I don't know what it means." And I'm like, "Well, just look at it. Do you have a feeling?" And they're like, "Yeah. I really have a feeling when I look at this." I'm like, "Great, then it's perfect. Go with that feeling!" You know? And even if their reactions were not, not articulatable, right? They would . . . I might have, you know, had I known then, I might have been like, "Just sing me a bird song about it. And we'll see what it says," you know? ENRIQUE: Yeah. Well because if something [00:19:32] is really hitting home, the only possible responses are either laughter or silence. ANDREW: Yes. ENRIQUE: You know, that's the moment when we are completely impacted by something. We laugh, which is almost like a defense mechanism or we are quiet, because of this, we are taking it deep, you know. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: So, and of course, we still think that we have to feel special and important when we are having an experience. ANDREW: Yeah. Yeah. Because people aren't comfortable sitting in [00:20:02] that. So, I was at this conference and, as the culmination of the workshop that we were doing, we were to sit and gaze into the other person's eyes, and sort of allow all that had been exchanged between us to sort of settle in. And the person that I was sitting with was uncomfortable with this and started to laugh every time we looked and tried to look away a bit or whatever. And so, I just sort of sat there and said to myself, "Well, I [00:20:32] can laugh with them, we can laugh together." And so, so I started to laugh and as soon as I started to laugh, they continued, but were able to sort of sit with me with it. And so, we sat there, you know, in the midst of several hundred people. Everyone else dead silent and gazing solemnly into everybody else's eyes and having their own experience. And the two of us laughing so hard the tears were rolling down our face, because it just kept escalating, the longer we did it, the funnier [00:21:02] it got, right? And you know, I mean . . . ENRIQUE: That's brilliant. ANDREW: One of the . . . one of the more magical experiences of it, you know, and I don't remember what the rest of the reading was. I have no idea what we said to each other. I mean, I might . . . I think I made some notes, I could go and look, but for me, the real significance was that we both changed something in that moment through our engagement and our laughter, right? ENRIQUE: Yes, and that's actually . . . That was an actual communication, you know, where you had your communication, [00:21:32] communicating through laughter, which is in a way communicating through form. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: And not through words. I mean words are wonderful. And I love words, but words are also overrated. You know, there is a whole field of experience that exists outside of words. ANDREW: Sure. Yeah. ENRIQUE: And, and when you really have a profound experience, you are usually in the space outside of language, then comes the problem of sharing it, right? And then you have to find the right words, which is a whole other thing. But with the actual experience is not in the space mediated by language. [00:22:03] ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: No matter what the French say. ANDREW: Yeah. I completely agree with you. I think that that that sort of moment where you're just engaged with something beyond words is . . . is really where, where things are wonderful. Right? ENRIQUE: Yes. Absolutely. ANDREW: I mean, it's, it's an experience that I'm always seeking out, you know, in one way or another right? In my relationships. In my relationship with nature, through the art that I make, even, even through my hobbies, like going rock climbing. One of the things I like about rock climbing is [00:22:33] that, you know, when you're 25 feet off the ground, and you know, working on a climbing problem, there's no . . . There's nothing but the sort of sense of trying to figure out how to move in space in relationship with the wall and it's not . . . it's not words. ENRIQUE: Exactly. ANDREW: It's not anything. It's just . . . it's just a feeling and it's the feeling of being in that relationship with the wall itself and the puzzle, you know? ENRIQUE: Yeah, I mean that's, that's actually a beautiful example because the wall is there, [00:23:03] speaking in stone. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: And then . . . and your body has to reply in your negative space for the stone. ANDREW: Yeah. ENRIQUE: Otherwise, you basically fall and die. ANDREW: Right. ENRIQUE: So, you have to become endowed with that form and that's a . . . yeah, that's an excellent example. ANDREW: Yeah, and it's definitely one of those things where you know, you can make your mind up. You know, I mean, especially, you know, like I'm not the world's best climber by any means, but you know, I climb [00:23:33] sort of relatively challenging, for most people, kind of things. You can decide all sorts of things before you start the climb, but once you put your hand or your foot or you know, whatever on the, on the hold then it tells you, if you're listening, what it wants you to do or needs you to do. ENRIQUE: Yes. ANDREW: And everything that you thought ahead of time kind of can go completely out the window where you're like, "Oh. I thought I'd be able to hold it from that angle. But in fact, I have to hold it from the other side now," or "I have to do this [00:24:03] or that," or "Oh, wow. That space is so much broader than I thought it was. I don't know how to, how to cross that gap now." And then you . . . then you have to sort of feel it and feel the motion and it really becomes a process of . . . Most of the problem-solving comes not so much from even thinking about it, but from being there and saying, "Okay, where do I feel the most settled in this position? And where do I feel like I can move from?" ENRIQUE: Yes. ANDREW: And then you're like, "Okay, now, now, now I [00:24:33] can see my way forward." ENRIQUE: Yeah, any embodied knowledge that you have, that we all have, and of course you acquire with experience the more you speak or you are in dialogue with the rock and the mountain, but at the same time, somehow, that's also dream. That's some sort of thing which, just letting the symbolic world, meaning the world of forms, guide you upwards. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. For sure. Well, [00:25:03] I mean, I feel like this this brings us into something that you and I have been, you know, discussing, you know, kind of . . . I mean over the last, last year or so, over the last six months, you know, this question of what does it mean to live with the oracle versus to sort of learn and work the oracle. I'm not sure if I'm articulating it quite right in those words, but it's a good starting point, right? ENRIQUE: Yes, and I think [00:25:33--a little garbled here] that that's extraordinary. It's really an important question, I think. Then . . . I mean, for example, there are ways to tackle it, but this year, I finally managed to stop doing tarot readings for . . . which means that I finally managed to say no, which is really hard because usually what you want to say, "Yes," but I decided that it had no, I mean, I decided that there is a . . . You [00:26:04] know, honesty is prophecy. And then, when you actually give an honest look at anything, you know the future. And it's only when we fool ourselves, you know, we say, "Yeah, let me invite my alcoholic friend to the party. I'm sure this time he's going to be okay." ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: That's when we, you know, get derailed and then we get surprised by something that in theory, we say [00:26:34] is unexpected, but it isn't, you know, we are just fooling ourselves. But so, I decided okay, if you really remove things from the table, the only thing you can do is be present, you know, and pay attention. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: But of course, I can only accept that because whatever effect extended exposure to the tarot had on me, [00:27:04] allows me now to see that way, you know, and for . . . I see it. At some point you realize that the reason why we place two cards and put a space in between them, right, and at some point, then, we realize that we think of that in terms of space only because we are very slow, but it's not really space, it's time. And then we [00:27:34] realize, oh, that time is equivalent to the time that exceeds between the two, [garbled, some words may be lost] somehow you realize, you discover, and you inhabit the space in between. You live, we live in the world all the time, cards or no cards, right? And I think that the, the, I mean the ultimate effect, I guess, is to be able to have a beautiful life and I think [00:28:04] that has to do a lot with being able to be present and to contemplate what is around and then you let . . . I find myself in a very strange position, because I now work with all these people who are interested in language of the birds. So, we work with, you know, words, fundamentally, we break words apart and we turn them into little clouds, and we are actually looking for the void [00:28:34] within the words, right? And the letters become pegs that are holding the void in place. So, we go beyond meaning into form and then I will feel that it's almost like, sometimes, it's almost like seeing an angel. Like seeing a, you know, you see this beautiful thing that you know you found it when you see it, but you can't even define it, right? And it has been one thing to do that for years and years on my own and another very [00:29:04] different one to . . . to share that work with other people and then to see the effect that work has on them. Right? And one of the beautiful things, of course, is that people feel very grounded, very centered, when they do this work, but then you have it. So, these are the people that . . . (ringing phone) ANDREW: I'm sorry. Let's pause for a second, Enrique, until my phone stops ringing. ENRIQUE: And we can see that could be . . . Absolutely. ANDREW: All right. [00:29:34] Apparently, I can't make the phone stop either. (laughing) Oh, boy. ENRIQUE: Yes. You don't have superpowers. ANDREW: I don't have superpowers. Yeah, okay. ENRIQUE: So yeah, so, in any case, when you start sharing the work with other people, and they start doing that work, and you realize, oh, now people are talking about how their dreams change, right? And they have all these different beautiful [00:30:04] dreams that somehow follow the forms they are putting on the paper, right? Or, or people who feel grounded. And then you realize well, this is what living with the oracle is. It finds expression in anything you arrange . . . ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: Around you. And, you know, Gaston Bachelard, the French writer, talks about poetic [00:30:34] reverie, right? And he says, literally that, he says, we can't actually . . . We have to discount dreams because we don't have control over them. But then, if you submerge yourself in a constant state of poetic reverie, you change your own dreams. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: Because you are learning to be beautifully in the world, to think beautifully, right? And in a form . . . in a way form begets form. So, if you learn to move in a certain way, then that can [00:31:04] raise an echo, right? And all that . . . I know that all this may sound very abstract and probably useless, but it all accounts for basically being in the world in a beautiful way and living a beautiful life. Eventually, you can share those things with other people. And . . . For example, the other day I was talking to this very young woman. Her name was Natasha. And I showed her how her name . . . You know that if you separate the variables, which are the soul of a word [00:31:34] from the body, which is the consonants. She basically . . . the three As on Natasha form a triangle, right? With them . . . like an inverted triangle. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: And then the consonants form a square. So, when I show her that as forms, we saw how her soul, the triangle, was a little bit off-center to the square, the body, and she was really concerned about appearing or being too [00:32:04] predictable. So that gave her great comfort. Because of course, having an off-center soul is not being predictable. And, in a sense, I had to explain that. I just saw something. I say, "Oh, well, this makes me feel better." And I don't know what that is. And again, I never know what that can do for anybody. But I also think that there is some comfort for me [00:32:34] in thinking that something so abstract cannot be named, right? Because if you cannot really name it, then you probably cannot trivialize it. ANDREW: Hmm. I think it's . . . I think it's . . . You know, my . . . So many things. All my thoughts are colliding now! (laughing) And it's like, how do I put all this into words that make any sense to anybody else? Right? It's just . . . ENRIQUE: Yes. ANDREW: So, [00:33:04] we talked about how . . . you know, being . . . we need to, we need to sort of see things as they are, right? And that when we're surprised by circumstance in readings, possibly, probably, we've been fooling ourselves on some level, you know? Because I think that, I think that that's certainly my experience, right? There are . . . there are surprises, life is surprising at times, but most of the things that people ask [00:33:34] questions about aren't really surprising and people generally have a notion about what's going on. They just don't like it, don't want to say it, don't want to face it, or whatever. You know, and for me, you know this sort of Stoic idea of it's always better to know what's real then to sort of live in any other kind of version of reality, you know, or to cover it up. I think that that's something that I sort [00:34:04] of really have valued over a long time. And I think that the kind of Stoic notions, if you can kind of work with them outside of the macho bullshit, that's so much stuff that gets layered on them today, I think that they really can be helpful. And then I think that once we know what's real or what's, you know, closest to what's real, for whatever we want to say about that. That's a whole other episode, but . . . ENRIQUE: Yes. ANDREW: Then we can start to understand [00:34:34] and engage with this other world that doesn't need to have concreteness attached to it per se, right? And I think about my walk in the woods talking to the birds. I think about . . . People always ask me, you know, like, "Well, do you do daily readings? What do you . . . How do you read the cards for yourself?" And you know, these days, a lot of what I do is, I just sit with the cards. And I put out some Marseilles cards and then I put out my, you [00:35:04] know, my Sacred Self Oracle, and I look for, look for the patterns that emerge between those. And especially because I'm often taking notes on my iPad, I'll take a picture of that card, and then I'll draw on top of it. And I've moved outside of the notion of reading in any sense that anybody means by that. And . . . ENRIQUE: Yes. ANDREW: And it is so grounding, and so centering, and sometimes there's a message that emerges, [00:35:34] sometimes it filters back down into language or words or whatever. And often the words that come out don't even really matter. They don't even necessarily make sense in any sort of overt way, but the flow of them, the practice of making them or arranging them, the practice of thinking them, is the message and is the oracle. ENRIQUE: Yes. ANDREW: And the consequence of that oracle is not tangible and direct in an overt way, but [00:36:04] it somehow modifies myself and my relationship to the world, my day, whatever it is that's going on, in ways that allow me to move forward in a different manner. ENRIQUE: Yes. That's the dialogue in the day. The hand and the wall rock, you know, when your hand gets caught, to match the rock wall, your climb, it's the same thing. It's form speaking to form. And that in itself is [00:36:34] the message. And of course, that doesn't have an intellectual effect, because you can't just even talk about it. It has an emotional effect . . . ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: Which is something that a lot of people miss. When you are in contact with an oracle, you're basically exposing yourself to, to have, to that, for that thing to have an emotional impact on you. And, and maybe, there is something also, that may be very silly, you know, but oracle is a word that basically accounts [00:37:05] originally, at least, for an opaque or oblique utterance, right? A phrase, a bunch of words that don't have a clearer meaning. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: So, it requires thought and, and in the way I see it, there is an experience that let's say, is a little common still. A person, any person, opens a poetry book, finds a line in the poem, and thinks, "Ah, this [00:37:35] speaks to my condition right now." Right? ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: And we know that that poet didn't write that for her, or not even about, it's not even about that, that the person is experiencing. But the person can see how that speaks to her. You know, "Yes, this accounts for this experience I'm having." ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: And that's an experience that most people feel or know, understand, and even our culture at large values [00:38:05] it, that. We respond to it, we pride ourselves on being a culture that generates that kind of experience. So, we can take that one step further, and say, well this is a . . . Fal'e Hafiz, you know, the divination with a poet by Hafiz, the Iranian poet, which is basically the same thing, only that it's not any book of poetry, but only a book of poetry by Hafiz. You think about a problem you have, you open it up, the [00:38:35] first line you read, that's the answer . . . ANDREW: Mm. ENRIQUE: To your problem. And the thing is, that Hafiz was a very very obscure poet. So, it's never like, "come back on Tuesday," or, you know, play the 36." ANDREW: Right! ENRIQUE: So, it's a really really contrived sentence. So, you have to meditate upon it. It is the same as meditating upon form. And then eventually say "Yes, I understand how this is speaking to my condition." [00:39:06] And we can take that one step further and say the I Ching, right? Which is still a book and still full of lines, literally and metaphorically. But then, now, we don't say, "Okay, open it in any page and the first thing you see, that will be it." We say, "No, we're actually engaging with chance." So, we take all these sticks or the coins and we start going through a process that renders this idea of the odd and the even. [00:39:36] So we, you know, we get to the hexagrams. And then from the hexagrams to some sort of commentary on the hexagrams. So, we are again left with some sort of obscure phrase that in theory is responding to our situation, right? ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: And then the next step, of course, is get rid of the book. ANDREW: Yeah. ENRIQUE: And keep the sticks. And right there, we have all the divination [00:40:06] systems we know, right? We have the shells with the bones, throw the cards, or the coffee stains or grinds or the clouds. And the funny thing is in our culture, the moment we get rid of the book, we step into what people define as superstition, right? ANDREW: Mm-hmm. Yeah. ENRIQUE: It's no longer this poetica pursuit, basically, because we have this very old-fashioned idea of poetry as something that is anchored on the word, words, and [00:40:36] not on form. But of course, every time you look at an oracle you're reading, and that reading is a poetic reading. It's as opaque and obscure as the poetry by Hafiz or the I Ching commentary or the poem that you read and . . . ANDREW: Well in the . . . ENRIQUE: You know, I was talking about this with . . . yeah, yes, go ahead. ANDREW: In a sense, you know, when we . . . You know, not in a literal sense, because from within the tradition, we have a different dialogue [00:41:06] about it, but from the point of view of our conversation, when we are divining with the cowrie shells and we say that the, the Odu has arrived, right? Like the living energy of the Orisha that is the sign that came out in this divination. And the belief is that the arrival of that Odu changes the person's life. It is . . . it is just that process of invoking that energy through [00:41:36] the shells, and looking at it and seeing it and it being there, and then afterwards the diviner's job is more so to manage that dialogue and make sure that the person understands enough of what has been said so they can go away and think about it, right? I mean and there are other sort of literal pieces too but, but that idea of the energy of the oracle arriving, and us receiving it, and that being the thing that changes our life . . . You know, it comes with the notion that we don't understand [00:42:06] what that is, exactly. We can't articulate it clearly. And even, even when we're interpreting the Odu in a traditional way, we can't necessarily, on any level, understand all of the implications and so on of that. We are merely just making sure that we've, you know, read the appropriate lines that are relevant to it and marked the right things. And after that, it's up to the person to sit with it and allow that to unfold with them and through them and so on, in a way that [00:42:36] is certainly energetic and otherwise, but also definitely poetic, and goes back to that sort of obtuseness of Hafiz, or other things, the I Ching, where it's like, "Huh? What does this really mean? How does this apply? How does this apply today? How does this apply while I'm at the butcher's? How does this apply when I pick my kids up from school? You know? It's that living with it that is the . . . that is where we get the most out of it and where it is the most transformational. You know? ENRIQUE: Yes. Yeah, and [00:43:06] I mean, I was talking about this with my wife the other day, and she say that the problem, really, the moment you get rid of the book or the moment that you step into the oracle is the other person, the interpreter, you know? There is this, the moment you need the other person to tell you how to relate to the oracle. And I thought that was really interesting because again, it's brought me back to the woman who say, "You are in the obligation of telling me because I'm not going to do any thinking." ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: And [00:43:36] of course, I mean, again, it is really interesting to, for me at the moment to think again that by delivering an open object, turn the other person into the interpreter. They have to come to terms with forms and understand what those forms are saying to them. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: Because at least I don't know. I don't know what, who they are. I don't know what they are, you know, feeling, and I must certainly have no, [00:44:06] nothing to say about anybody's life, but they know. I think they always know. And you say, also a few minutes ago, they have an idea of what's going on. And basically, they may not like it. So, they're trying to find almost like a second opinion. That's why . . . I mean the other day, somebody was asking me about the ethics of readings and divination and I told her, well, there is an ethical problem, because in my experience [00:44:36] most clients are dishonest. They want to hear what they want to hear. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: And they will twist your words. They will, you know, re-ask the question again and again until they get what they want, and even if you don't give it to them, they will hear every word you say as if you say what they want to hear. So, of course, there is a lot of dishonesty in the profession, but it mostly come from the clients. Of course, [00:45:06] there are dishonest readers. But even the honest reader has to put up with that person who has decided beforehand what they want to hear. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: And I see that as way more . . . I mean, and again, it's really . . . Do you know, I think that there is a love for the majority for example of the cards or any oracle, at some point you want to really share that beauty with other people. And that takes you so far. It [00:45:37] comes to a point at which you understand: "Yes, but I'm speaking of a beauty and this woman's still speaking about this [garbled] on Thanksgiving. You know? ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: I really don't care. It's not really my problem. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think, yeah. I think too, like, somebody . . . Somebody was asking me if . . . Somebody was . . . I was posting about my . . . So, my journey for, with [00:46:07] rock climbing. You know, I was, I set myself a goal for the year. This is the only resolution I made for 2018. And my resolution for 2018 was to still be climbing at the end of the year. That was my, my entire goal. No achievement attached to it. No, you know, anything else, just still be going and doing it. Just keep returning if you go away, and be, and still be there at the end of the year. Because [00:46:37] I think that, you know, like the oracle, you know, if we, if we promise to keep showing up, you know, the oracle reveals things to us over time. ENRIQUE: Yes. ANDREW: We don't know when or how that comes, and so if we endeavor to be with it, then, then we will hear what we need to hear as we go, to a large extent. And somebody, somebody was posting . . . somebody posted in response to that, that if they, they wondered if the universe challenged us whenever we set an intention, you [00:47:07] know, if it deliberately brought stuff up, you know. And I think that for me, and I'll let you answer for yourself. But for me, living with the oracle in this open-ended way and living, in a, for lack of a better term, kind of more Stoic way with a real sort of working to, to see things as clearly as possible all the time and face the things that I might rather put in the closet or leave [00:47:37] for another day. I don't . . . I don't feel like the universe has a lot of agency in the way that that question implies, you know? There are surprises that are . . . that happen, you know? You know, in relationship to me climbing this year, there were two surprises: One, I dislocated my collarbone in the winter, tobogganing with my daughter. And that took like [00:48:07] four months to really fix. It's horrible. I don't recommend it to anybody. And two, you know, I'm getting divorced this year and, you know, although that is amicable and, and going well, relatively speaking, it takes a lot of time and attention and doesn't always leave energy for other things. But I don't think that any of those have any relationship to . . . to my intention or my desire to climb or do other things. I think that those are, those [00:48:37] are just the inevitable stories of being alive, right? We are alive, and things happen and we get sick and . . . ENRIQUE: Yes. ANDREW: Life comes up and things change and so on and we don't need to, or I never need to, arrange a narrative around that in a bigger way. So, I'm curious. I'm curious for you. Do you . . . What agency do you feel comes back from the universe? Do you think that there is something organizing it or testing us or . . . ENRIQUE: No, I actually, no, I always say the same thing. I think that [00:49:07] the universe doesn't care about us. Or maybe I will say it doesn't care about me. And I know that people want to be, to feel otherwise, you know, but you know when I was a kid . . . and this image has been coming back a lot recently. I watched this documentary about Africa, right? And there was this method of catching monkeys, which consisted of filling up a hollow tree with grain. ANDREW: Uh huh. ENRIQUE: And then, you know, the monkey will stick his hand into the hollow [00:49:37] tree, grab the grain, but then couldn't take the handful, the fistful out. The hole was only big enough for the empty hand to come in. But if he had grain in his hand, in his hand, he couldn't take it out. ANDREW: Yeah. ENRIQUE: And basically, these guys just will walk up to the monkey and grab it because the monkey will never let go of the grain. ANDREW: Yes. ENRIQUE: And I mean, it's insane, right? But I think that in terms of daily life, we are all monkeys with our hand [00:50:07] stuck in a hollow tree. ANDREW: Yes. ENRIQUE: And most of the time, you realize, yeah, but can you just open the hand and let go? ANDREW: Yeah. ENRIQUE: Life works the way it works. And in that sense, there is no mystery, even if it takes you by surprise all the time, basically because we think that there is a mystery there. And yes, sometimes we catch a cold and sometimes we get divorced and sometimes we, you know, we're surprised by somebody giving us a loaf of bread. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: I . . . I [00:50:38] don't think that actually, at least I understand that that's not the way people think, but I never thought of any kind of oracular work where oracles had any dealings with daily life in that sense, of letting me know if I should change the oil of my car today or next week, you know? ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: I think it's more about transcending daily life and finding some sort of center, true beauty [00:51:08] through some sort of . . . ANDREW: Yeah. ENRIQUE: Through some sort of sublime condition in life. ANDREW: For sure. ENRIQUE: Yeah, but all day, even the other day I was talking about, you know, people, people talk about sigils, and then I realized, first, the first mistake you make when you make a sigil is wanting something? ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: And then you realize when you make a sigil to, I don't know, lose weight. Let's [00:51:38] say. And another sigil to get a red car. You're basically making the same operation, right? You make, you take the words, you eliminate certain letters, and you consolidate everything into one small or smaller emblem. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: And then you realize, oh, but what you're doing there, it doesn't matter what you want. What you're doing again and again and again is a reduction. That's what then . . . In the world of forms, [00:52:08] what you are actually spelling is a reduction. Which means that in time, it doesn't matter how many things you wanted, you end up with your mind drinking. ANDREW: Hmm. ENRIQUE: And of course, people don't like that, because, besides you can't sell a book saying this stuff, right? You can't sell any books and don't want stuff. They only want books that say, I'm sorry, I want to say you're entitled [00:52:38] to want everything, and I can tell you how to get it. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: But you realize there is something really silly about trying to control daily life, especially because daily life is not even that interesting, you know, and it takes care of itself. ANDREW: Mm. Yeah. I think that . . . I mean it's kind of why, over the years, I've sort of moved to . . . My [00:53:08] magic that I do tends to tends to be most often orientated towards what I, what I kind of now often call as identity magic, which is how do I, how do I change myself so that I can be more like more like what seems fruitful, more like what, you know, remove those obstacles in myself to doing the things that I need, you know, it's not so much about changing the world as it is about [00:53:38] shifting myself in relationship to it so that . . . If there's desire attached to it, so that what I desire is more accessible, or so that I'm more, more at ease and more in the flow around whatever it is that I need to work on and change, you know? ENRIQUE: Yes. ANDREW: Yeah. ENRIQUE: Yeah, I don't know. I think it's a song. At some point, I understood or I [00:54:08] have been made to understand that presence is meaning . . . ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: And presence is also performance. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: Whatever you are, you're performing, you're enacting, you are projecting something, and causing an effect. And I'm at the moment more interested in just being, you know, and be present and play along with the fact that causes. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: It's like when this woman started laughing, looking at [00:54:38] your eyes, and you laughed with her, you know, you said that's a reaction in the moment and that's what there, you know? ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: And trying to make her chop or, I don't know, levitate, will be useless. So, yeah, it's . . . I'm finding a lot of pleasure in walking around by with my pockets empty. And of course, I don't know what magic is. I think that, in other words, I think that magic or [00:55:08] some experience of mystery that I actually pursue or often feel works best when you don't want anything, when you don't want it, and it appears and surprises you, gives you something. It's like a gift, you know, but it's not something you pursue in terms of how can I command for this to happen at will. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: And again, I understand that when you say that magic . . . When . . . the moment I speak [00:55:38] of magic without will, I'm almost like undefining magic in terms of what people think magic is, right? They all seem to be convinced it's about will, exerting our will, and I think it's more about stepping aside, letting things happen. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. Well, I think it's definitely about . . . for me, it's definitely about making space so that [00:56:08] I can be engaged and present with the subject of the magic in a way that it allows it to unfold, to some extent without control, to a large extent without control, because I think that the idea of, you know, "Oh, I really want this person to fall in love with me." I mean, I think the minute that you're fixated on, on one person is the minute that you've already kind of drifted into a problematic territory and should go back to . . . ENRIQUE: Yes. ANDREW: Why that person? [00:56:38] Why do you want them when they are not reciprocating? What is it you're looking for? What is it you could do without magic to make this . . . ? You know, I mean, many questions, right? But, but rather, what could I . . . What could I do to have more, more romance in my life? What could I do to have better connections? And is there a magical act that, that feeds and supports that in an open-ended and sort of allowing the universe to show us, allowing ourselves to witness and notice it in an open, open [00:57:08] and present way as the opportunities float around us, rather than sort of exerting a massive amount of control, which I think is, which is very rarely fruitful, you know. ENRIQUE: Yes. Well, you know, my . . . This year, one of my favorite moments is . . . I have this friend, who about 12 years ago, he was named the godfather of a child, right? And he decided beautifully that his gift to this kid will be the gift of language. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: So, he set up an account, a bank account and he has [00:57:38] been putting money there for years, assuming that at some point, maybe this kid will want to learn, you know, Italian so he can go to Rome and live there and learn the language. But then this summer, he spent a morning with me by the river and we were playing with all these bird voices, you know, and talking like birds and the birds will come and all this and that. So, and he went, he bought a box full of birdcallers and sent it to this kid. Yeah, so there is something extraordinarily beautiful in [00:58:08] inspiring a person to complete this crazy act of gifting a kid a set of birdcallers, and then he wrote this note, saying, "I believe this is a good first language for you to learn. And, and then for that gesture not to fall flat, you know, and for the kid to actually embrace this, and then this is a kid I don't know, I probably will never see in my life, but somehow, it's beautiful to think that there [00:58:38] is some residual effect of what I do that is part of that kid's life, and I don't know. I'm . . . The other day, for example, this woman wrote to me and she said that she wanted to speak like a hawk. And it's beautiful. We saw this at [Brawn's?] we saw that actually allows her to do so. And she say, "Well, I have a problem, and the problem I have is that I'm surrounded by [00:59:08] sparrows." So, I told her, "Well, you know, the problem is that the only way you have for you to know if you are actually doing it right is that all those sparrows are going to fly away, because you've become a predator, right? ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: And she say, "Oh, but, I mean, I love the sparrows. Do you think they were going to trust me?" I said, "Yes. I mean, they are going to trust you as much as a sparrow trusts a hawk." Okay. So yeah, it's fantastic to think you can . . . A, this faith [00:59:38] when a person can ask you that question, can talk about this [garbled] bird's nest to still be close to the birds. And at the same time, like a little bit . . . We are really not just talking about talking like a hawk, or talking about voice, we are talking about the consequences of having a certain voice and being responsible for what we say, what we put out in the world. And I . . . being full of all of the [garbled] but I can [01:00:08] see the poetry or of living a poetic life through embracing the form of a bird voice and the bird language. So yeah. ANDREW: That's wonderful. Well, maybe we should wrap up the us talking part of the conversation here, and there were definitely some questions that came through, through Facebook. And I think at this point, I'd love to, I'd love to hear you give like a one word [01:00:38] or a one phrase answer to them, rather than us sort of go into a big long conversation or . . . kind of like we did in one of them where . . . ENRIQUE: Yes. ANDREW: I did the rapid-fire questions at you. Let's look at these rapid fire . . . ENRIQUE: Yes. ANDREW: And see what comes, okay? So, one person asks . . . ENRIQUE: Okay. ANDREW: So, with your children, are they interested, would you teach them these things about card reading? What are your thoughts on children and cards? [01:01:08] ENRIQUE: Well, I have three kids. The middle kid already asked me to teach him and I did so. And then yesterday, my daughter told me that, and she's 10. One of his friends, his classmates, actually asked: Did your father ever taught you, told you how to read tarot and [garbled] in the French way, in such a beautiful way, that I think she already knows everything she needs to know. ANDREW: Yeah, my [01:01:38] youngest got a Sibilla deck and reads that for me sometimes . . . ENRIQUE: I have Sibilla, yes. ANDREW: And it's just, you know, she's so great at it. It's just, she's like, "Oh, look at this. Somebody's going to do something you don't like, but this is going to happen. But there you go. It's so wonderful," right? They have a sense of it, I think, which is great and . . . ENRIQUE: Yes. ANDREW: It's less about teaching and more about just . . . ENRIQUE: Yeah. I mean my son, when I explained . . . Yeah, when I explained [01:02:08] it to my son in after 15 minutes, he told me, "Oh, I understand. This is all about transformations." And I realized, "Oh, it took you 15 minutes, it took me 15 years." ANDREW: Right? ENRIQUE: Okay. ANDREW: Yeah. ENRIQUE: You know, that's that. Yeah. ANDREW: All right. Next question. What is the poem that the world needs in these times? ENRIQUE: I don't know. I mean, I guess my [01:02:38] issue is that I don't have any faith in the poem. ANDREW: Mm. ENRIQUE: As you know, in the actual poem. I guess there's poetry, and poetry's everywhere in a sense. But I will say in terms of poetry, yes, yes, you just need to listen to the sparrows. You know, the sparrows have this beautiful thing, that is, they are like Zen monks. A sparrow only makes a, like a little sound, you know, over and over and over, so it says everything it needs to say in one syllable. It's [01:03:08] almost like tasting water, you know. So . . . ANDREW: Yeah, yeah. ENRIQUE: Yeah, the voice of the sparrow. ANDREW: What has surprised you regarding tarot in the last couple of years? ENRIQUE: You know, the tarot world is like that movie, Groundhog Day. ANDREW: (bursts out laughing) ENRIQUE: It's the same day again, over and over. ANDREW: (still laughing) Yes, Bill Murray. ENRIQUE: So, we're all Bill [01:03:38] Murray. ANDREW: Perfect. Yeah. ENRIQUE: And that's . . . Every day the same deck is being published, the same book is being published, the same conversation about the origin of tarot is being published, the same theory about the secret behind it is being discussed. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: And that's how we go, you know, it never ends. ANDREW: Perfect. Do you consider tarot magic? And do you practice any forms of magic? ENRIQUE: Oh, every morning, [01:04:08] I sit at a café, in the same place next to a window. I look at words in my notebook. And if something appears [garbled--black?], in terms of form, I share it with some people and then that snowballs into something. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: And that's the magic I do. And, yeah, I mean, everything can be, I guess, magic, but I do feel that for something to be magical, there has to be an otherness. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: Meaning it has to take you to another [01:04:38] place. It's, I don't know. It's hard to imagine doing magic with something that is completely like a daily thing, you know, but it could be. I mean, I think that, yeah. In any case, I don't know if magic. I think that the world has a poetic influence, meaning that forms speak to each other through analogy. Maybe that's magic. I don't know if magic is an intelligence. I don't [01:05:08] know again, if there's an agency, like a big finger that is invisible and it's swirling things behind. I don't know. ANDREW: Yeah. Fair. And last question: What would, what would it take for you to put your tarot deck again right now? Given that you're not really doing readings and such any more. ENRIQUE: Every time I make an exception. ANDREW: Yes. Yeah. ENRIQUE: Every time I make an exception, [01:05:38] I end up confirming that it's pointless. ANDREW: Hmm. ENRIQUE: So, no, I don't think so. I'm not, you know, I have nothing to sell, and I'm not in a crusade for people, not to do readings or to any kind of ideas I may have, I'm just trying to get by finding my own language. I will do all these things, which is a way of saying to find my own. You know, I think that that's what the philosopher's stone is. To find your own language. ANDREW: Right. ENRIQUE: And your own language is not English or Spanish or Italian. It's how [01:06:08] you organize forms around you. And that's why they . . . you know, the, the alchemists say, that's a great work, you know, and they say the philosopher's stone cannot be handed down, you know, passed to another person. You have to find it yourself. It's because of that. You have to find your own language. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ENRIQUE: Otherwise you're just living in the shadow of another person's language. ANDREW: Right. Perfect. ENRIQUE: And yeah, so, so and well. Yeah. Okay. ANDREW: I think that's a great place [01:06:38] to leave it. Go find your language, everybody! ENRIQUE: Perfect. ANDREW: Perfect. And if it sounds like birds, let us know. (laughs) ENRIQUE: Exactly. ANDREW: Perfect. Well, thank you so much for hanging out with me this morning and especially for fighting through all the Skype up and downs. It's what I get for recording during Mercury retrograde. ENRIQUE: Oh, it's okay. It's always great. ANDREW: Perfect. ENRIQUE: Thank you. It's always great to talk to you. ANDREW: Thank you, you too. ENRIQUE: I hope to soon. [music] ANDREW: [01:07:09] I hope you love this conversation, as always, I hope that. Enrique did all the Patreons the pleasure of recording a bird song just for them. So if you are a supporter of the Patreon in the $5 and up category, you can go find that recording now at Patreon.com/TheHermitsLamp, and if you're not a supporter: Well, what are you waiting for? The birds are waiting to speak to you. Talk to you next time.
The Hermit's Lamp Podcast - A place for witches, hermits, mystics, healers, and seekers
Barbara and Andrew catch up on their 4th annual check in to discuss the state of the world. They talk about the way death has been a force in Barbara's life. How maybe being real is more important that being upbeat. The role of social media in both their lives. And Andrew's claiming of the term Magnificent Weirdo. If you missed the previous interviews go check out episodes 44, 58, and 72 first. Think about how much you've enjoyed the podcast and how many episodes you listened to, and consider if it is time to support the Patreon You can do so here. If you want more of this in your life you can subscribe by RSS , iTunes, Stitcher, or email. Barbara can be found at her website here. Thanks for joining the conversation. Please share the podcast to help us grow and change the world. Andrew You can book a reading or private lesson with Andrew through his site here. Transcript ANDREW: [00:00:02] Welcome to The Hermit's Lamp podcast, everybody. I am here today with Barbara Moore, and this is essentially our fourth annual check in and hang out. We started these conversations a number of years back, and just sort of fell into the habit of kind of following up and seeing where life has gotten to and what's going on. And you know, I think it's going to be an interesting episode because we're … For both of us, it's been a year of a lot of change, and, you know, a lot of transformation and [00:00:32] you know, so yeah, let's get to it. Hey Barbara, what's going on? What's new? BARBARA: (laughing) What's new … We have just celebrated our one-year anniversary in our new home. It's, like you said, been a year of a lot of change, you said transformation. I don't think that my stuff is actually in the transforming (laughs) [00:01:02] stage yet. It's still in the … Feels like it's still in the breaking down phase. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: And I really think it would be more the end of the transformation, like the butterfly stage by now, but that has not happened. ANDREW: Uh-huh. BARBARA: But I suppose, what's new? The biggest newest thing that's been kind of a theme this year for me has been death. Death has been new to me. I have not had a lot of death in my life. [00:01:34] And so, I've had a lot of it pretty close and intimate, really intimate, this year. In fact, the most intimate … wow, we're going to start right off with the big stuff … the most intimate connection with death on one level, I had just one week ago today. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: And that was when …? Okay. So, the … how ... the place we live in is attached to a house on [00:02:04] property owned by a couple named Carol and Noel. I did mention them last year. And, and Noel died on Friday. And this is not unexpected. He was quite old, and was in hospice and dying for quite some time. And Carol knows that I have done a little bit of priestess work, little bit of ritual stuff. And so, the hospice caregiver was preparing Noel's [00:02:34] body. Oh, because they didn't take the body away to a mortuary or anything like that. They kept him at home, and—for a week—and he just went away on Thursday, and so he wasn't going to be embalmed or anything. And so, the hospice caregiver asked, and Carol asked, if I would help prepare his body, which (laughs) was really freaky for me because I've never done anything [00:03:04] like that. I've never been a good, you know … Some people are good caregivers, you know, like if someone's sick, they're good at taking care of them and comforting and cleaning. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: I've never been that. It's just not something that has been a strength for me. And, you know, but part of this whole year is doing things that scare me. And so, yeah, so I helped wash [00:03:34] him, and then we crumbled up lavender into some oil and anointed his whole body, and dressed him, and I … It's been a week and I still, I've told people I can't really talk about it yet, because I haven't fully processed what I think or feel about that situation, and even just talking about it, I can feel the fluttering in my chest, you know, like a sign of anxiety that [00:04:04] I haven't really finished processing that experience. ANDREW: Mmm. BARBARA: But I guess we could say that that's really metaphoric for what this past year has been. I've been getting up close and personal with death in many forms and still sorting out my relationship with it. ANDREW: Death is one of those things that we don't … I mean, I consider [00:04:34] myself a person who's comparatively really comfortable with death. I'm very, you know, close and aware of death. You know, I mean, I've been through a lot of very close loss in my life, you know, my … Two of my brothers passing away, and, you know, the people that I've known passing away, and I think that … Death is always an uncomfortable companion. Even if you are, [00:05:04] relatively speaking, comfortable with it being around, you know, it's always … It's never, it's never entirely settled, and I think that, you know … Like grief, grief is never entirely settled, you know, it might be 20 years and some conjunction of things will kick some little pocket of it back up into the foreground again, you know. So. BARBARA: Yeah, yeah. I think what [00:05:35] has driven me for most of my life is making things, producing things, working, and I think whenever any kind of loss comes to me, into my life, I would just kind of pat it down and run over it and just keep going. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: You know, like it's not affecting me. It happened. It's done, move on, move on, and this [00:06:05] year, the kinds of death have been really much larger, and I've been not working much. I mean, I've been doing my regular work like I explained in the last podcast. I did kind of have the year off, except for, you know, just the basic work, just keep feeding myself, but I've had a lot more downtime and quiet time, and it's almost like I needed training wheels to feel, [00:06:35] cause I'm not, I wasn't used to, what am I feeling? Even just even letting the feeling come to the surface, and then the next step, identifying it, and what you do with it, and how does it fit in with where you want to go with your life, or whatever, and cause I don't even know what order I should tell all the stories. But just this example of feeling the feelings associated with death, just met ... [00:07:05] my father also died. He died in September, and I just started … just like last night, actually. I started feeling the feelings of grief, you know, like, oh my God, I miss him so much, and you know, so it's been almost two months, and I … And it's just happening now, you know. And my beloved [00:07:35] companion Whiskey, my golden retriever, died in June and I wasn't home to say goodbye to her. I was in Minnesota at the time. And you know, it took like a couple months for those feelings to come up. So, you know, I feel like even though I'm into my 50s, I have had little practice with this compared to most people my age. So, it has been real interesting. Oh, and that [00:08:05] reminds me too, right before I moved, my friend Nancy and I were messing around with our cards and stuff, and she's like, “Well, let's pull a card and see, you know, what big theme you can expect from this move.” And she pulled the Death card, of course, and was like, “Oh, wow, this is going to change your life in more ways than you think!” And she pulled another card. And it was the Emperor. And she's like, you know, because I'm a very structured person, a very organized person. She's like, “It's going to really blow that part of you [00:08:35] to bits.” But what she couldn't have known, and of course hindsight is, you know … The Emperor, for a lot of people, is associated with a father figure, you know, so it's like “your father will die.” Okay, but again, it's all metaphor, and it's all tied together, and bigger themes, and then I was writing to one of my pen friends and I was giving her my new P.O. box number and she's like, “Oh, your P.O. box numbers add up to 13. It's a Death year for you.” I went, “Oh, wow. Okay.” So, [00:09:05] yeah. ANDREW: Do you, do you follow the year card system? Are you ... For, you know, birth cards and year cards? Is that a thing for you? BARBARA: I do ... My birth cards and the year cards, I don't, I do some years, and some years I don't. And I don't even know if I know what mine was. I didn't think I needed another one. Okay, I think I'll just ... The Death card wants to be my card this year. I think we'll just go with it. Of course, knowing ... You know, when you don't have a real [00:09:35] experience with it, it can feel like, “Ooh, it's exciting, things are going to change,” because in the past, in my life, when things have changed, it's always been like, good, and pretty easy, and exciting, and not involving all of this that we're having here. Yeah. ANDREW: Well, you know, I think that death, death, death on all those levels is always such a complicated [00:10:07] companion, right? You know? I mean, coming to the endings of things is, you know, in some ways, a relief, especially for Noel. Right? I mean that's a, that's a relief, right? of that sort of, you know, slow movement across that line, you know? But the kind of change that it tends to bring isn't really, you know, it … Even if it's sudden, even if the change is sudden, [00:10:37] the energy of it sort of lingers, right? You know, like Crowley talks about the Death card as sort of … Sometimes it's the fall of the scythe and sometimes it's this, like, putrefaction, this slow breaking down and rotting of things, right? BARBARA: Yeah. ANDREW: And hang out and sort of watch elements of yourself or your life kind of decompose, right? Like we were talking about before we got on the line today, you know? It's like that black [00:11:07] phase, that nigredo phase, in alchemy, right? Where, you know, everything just starts to like, break down, and it's, you know, that's the long dark night of the soul time, right? Where all of a sudden, you're like, “I don't know where anything was going. I don't know what any of this means anymore. Does any of this matter?” Right? BARBARA: Yeah. Yeah. The “does any of this matter?” has been a really strong push, or no, it's been a strong question in me this [00:11:37] year. You know, whenever I think of doing something or ... maybe I should take up a project, maybe I should get back to work, maybe I should do something, and like what, what's worth … What does it matter? ANDREW: Mmm. BARBARA: And I really truly hope I don't stay in this space for much longer because it is not comfortable. ANDREW: Yeah. I remember when … In the months after my brothers died. And for those who don't know, two of my brothers passed [00:12:07] within six weeks of each other, it's about nine years ago now, and so it was … It was really intense the first time, and then it was just, double down, you know, sort of six weeks later. And you know, like, I spent a lot of time thinking about it and trying to make sense of it. Trying to, you know, like underst-, what does any of it even mean any more after this kind of situation? And all those kinds of questions. [00:12:37] And the thing I kind of kept coming back to was, Well, I've got to do something with my time regardless. So, what is it I want to do? (laughing) What is it ... Like, is it just eat a bucket of ice cream? That's fine too. Right? Is it, you know, something else? What is it? Cause I've got to do something with my time other than just sit and wonder if any of it means anything, you know? You know? You know? And so, that kind of ultimately, you [00:13:08] know, led me, led me out of most of it, you know, and back into sort of being in the world and being engaged in things, you know, so. BARBARA: Yeah, yeah, hopefully that will start happening with me. I have spent my fair share of time just laying on the bed, you know, being all angsty and eating ice cream and whatnot. [00:13:38] But I've also done, you know, I've been reading more fiction, nothing that's, you know, enlightening my mind or anything, and painting nothing worth showing anybody. I have stacks and stacks and stacks of stuff that is completely pointless, and I'm like, why am I doing this? It's the only thing I feel like doing so I'm doing it. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. Yeah. BARBARA: It feels really [00:14:08] indulgent in a weird way. ANDREW: But isn't that part of what life is about? Like, I think that life as opposed to death is about indulgence, right? BARBARA: (laughing) ANDREW: No, maybe I'm too Sagittarian and too Jupitarian in that regard. But, you know, I think that life really is about indulging those things and you know, somewhat like the Fool, right? If we indulge those things, whatever meaning [00:14:38] there is will emerge over time. BARBARA: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: You know, as opposed to this idea that I think that we often have that we can determine what the meaning is and then, you know, set on a course of embodying that. You know, I mean, it's like a thing that I think I said to you a long time ago, right? Like, you know, the road knows what star is yours, but you can't figure it out before you leave the house, right? You know? BARBARA: Right. ANDREW: Yeah. BARBARA: Yeah. That's so contrary to the way I've lived [00:15:08] my life, and, as you're speaking those words again, I can feel the truth and beauty in them; at the same time, I feel part of myself resisting. ANDREW: Sure. BARBARA: So. ANDREW: Yeah. BARBARA: Yeah, it is definitely the black phase of alchemy, man. This breaking down, this breaking down, like when I left social media, a lot of it was fueled by, I was shaping my self-image based [00:15:38] on how people on social media saw me or responded to me. And so, I wanted to not let that be driving how I was shaping myself. But, and so, taking that away, what's left? What's take what shaping myself is my work? It's always been my work. What am I doing? What am I putting out there? How much am I teaching, how many books am I publishing, how many decks am I creating, what am I doing? And [00:16:08] like you said, we can't always set the outcome and move toward it and embody it and manifest it. Sometimes it's just all something my friend Ricardo says, similar to what you said, is, you can't see the path in the woods until you're in the woods, you know? It's dark and you can't see it until you're there. And yeah, so, you know, what are all the [00:16:38] paintings? They're mostly portraits of strangers, people I don't know ... ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: You know, just like stock images or, you know there are these sites that, where people post pictures for artists to use as reference ... ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: And it's all I'm doing is painting these strangers. It's just very weird. ANDREW: Well, I think that's really interesting, cause you never really know what's gonna come back around. I have this painting on the wall in the shop that I did. [00:17:09] I don't even know how long ago. It has no date on it. Seven or eight years ago maybe? And it's of a ... it's of a red-wing blackbird. And you know, I I've been thinking about making art again and showing art. I was in a show recently and sort of thinking about sort of the idea of not just making sort of decks and stuff like that. I mean still making those things as well, but also making [00:17:39] art for the sake of making art to show and share, you know, and ... And I was looking at this painting which has been, you know, in my reading room the whole time since I made it, so for a long time now. And I was like ... And I was talking to an artist and talking about how inspired I was by Basquiat and their really large works that they painted. You know, [00:18:09] they had a showing here in Toronto awhile back and some of the paintings are like six-foot square and stuff like that. And I'm feeling this urge to work big, I'm like, but I don't really have space to work big, you know, all the excuses come in, and then like I was looking at this painting of a bird and I was thinking, and then immediately I was like, you know what I'm going to do, I'm going to photograph that, I'm going to blow it up, and then I'm going to paint on top of it and make it into a new painting through that process. And so, I [00:18:39] just got the prints, so they're two by two by three feet big, as opposed to like, five by eight or something like that, which the small thing is originally, and I'm going to mount it to some kind of board and then I'm going to start reworking on top of it, stuff like that. So, you just never know what comes back around, you know, like those strangers may emerge in some really new way or lead to something else, you know? BARBARA: Are you going to use acrylics on top of that, or ... ? ANDREW: [00:19:10] I'm going to ... I'm going to use ... I have these acrylic markers. So, I'm going to use those. And I'm going to use ink, so I'm going to like go in and I want to do a mix of big scale stuff on it and really really super intimate things, like, you know, like the branch at the bird is sitting on because [00:19:40] it was painted small is essentially just a few very simple strokes of simple colors, right? But I'm going to go in embellish that, and then I'm going to go in and work with some varnish and stuff. So, some stuff will be really varnished and shiny from certain angles, and like I have a bunch of ideas about it. And then I feel like I can also feel there's some other birds like, “Hey, do me next. Do me next!” BARBARA: (laughing) ANDREW: So, you know, I feel like it's going to become a body of something, right? [00:20:10] But what that is, I don't really know, but you know, they've always been my companions, right? You know, I mean, I have this habit of I just go and follow the birds through the woods until they stop and then I realize where I need to be and stop and hang out with the Earth and that place and things like that, right? So, I have a very like strong connection to them. So, yeah. BARBARA: God, I can't wait to see. It sounds like it's going to be really really cool. I'm feeling excited for the process for you just hearing about it. ANDREW: Yeah. It's been [00:20:45] a long time since I ... since I had a sir purely process-driven thing and it's been a long time since I made ... Like I'm not even sure the last time I made a piece of art that wasn't for a deck, you know girls. It's been quite some time since I've since I did that. So. Yeah. Yeah. BARBARA: I was just thinking, you know, we kind of led with the heavy stuff, which seems natural, it's been on my mind, [00:21:15] but I wonder maybe it wouldn't be nice to have a little interlude of a few happy or positive things that have already been kind of coming out of the ashes. ANDREW: Yeah! BARBARA: Just so people don't get too depressed and quit listening. (laughs) But, you know, one of the things is ... I have two examples I'd love to share. The first is regarding my father's death. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: So, my father. He had [00:21:45] five kids: me and two sisters from my mom, and then my sister and brother from my stepmother. So there's five of us. And out of the five of us, three of us are really close, me and two of my sisters, and then the other two live in Michigan still and not quite as close. And one of the things my dad always said was he wished that we were all closer. ANDREW: Right. BARBARA: That was super important to him and [00:22:15] he ... When things started getting bad for him in July, my siblings and I started a sibling text chain just so we could ... and just so we could keep up on stuff .... ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: And all be fully informed. And throughout the process between July and October, that ... the time when he was like actively dying and in hospice and then planning the funeral and whatnot, my siblings and I worked [00:22:46] together, not like a well-oiled machine cause that sounds so cold, but like a bunch of dancers who know their steps and that complement each other. And so that was just really super amazing. And then when the funeral, which was in Michigan, all my siblings were already there and I was flying in, like the day before, and so I get to the Detroit airport and my [00:23:16] siblings text me and they're like, we're all here. Like, so it was just us five siblings, without spouses, without kids, without anything, just the five of us and I don't remember the last time the five of us were alone together and all in one place. So we stopped for a drink on the way home, and just you know, toasting dad and sharing stories, sharing intimate moments that we had with our dad that we'd never told anyone before .... ANDREW: Right. BARBARA: You know and just got really really [00:23:46] close. And in that weekend of the funeral, it was like my dad's last gift to us. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: He made a situation where we all fell in love with each other. ANDREW: That's wonderful. BARBARA: It really, it really is wonderful. And you know, so I'm so grateful for that because we still have that text chain going and you know, at least once a week we're, you know, sharing things about our lives and you know, encouraging each other, so that was super awesome. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: And [00:24:18] a real blessing. Then the other was, it's a little bit still close, but it was still like such a remarkable experience, was you know, like I said, Noel died. And so we kept him at home and people would come, you know, to just sit with him and be with people, you know, kind of like a wake kind of thing. ANDREW: Yeah. BARBARA: Oh, oh, but I do need to tell you this little local flavor thing, you know cause I do live here in this little tiny valley [00:24:48] and the technology is pretty sketchy. And you know, there's no like Potter Valley Facebook group or anything where people share what's going on. They do it the old-fashioned way. Like when the fires were happening this summer, there's this one kind of a park area where everyone who comes in and out of the valley drives past, and they had a big like a sandwich board sign where they had updates on the fire and a map of the evacuation areas and [00:25:18] stuff. You know, and that's how people found out stuff. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: And so, for Noel's funeral, we wanted--or whatever. It wasn't really a funeral, we'll call it a funeral. We wanted to let people know, and so, Dylan and I made, you know, two really big cardboard signs saying, just saying, that Noel passed away. Community visiting at his home and the hours and hung one up at the corner store [00:25:48] and one on the corner of the street where we live. And that's how we communicated the information. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: And one time, you know, we were walking, Dylan and I were out walking out to visit the Pigs who live on the corner where the sign was, and you know a man was driving up the mountain. He stops and he's like, “Oh so, you know, Noel died.” Yeah, yeah, you know, just people talk more, it's more face-to-face or, very old school. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: Well anyways, back [00:26:18] to the cool part was: when you're getting cremated, apparently, they give you this cardboard box that's, you know, you put the body in and so we left it out in a large area of the house with a bunch of art supplies and people decorated it. ANDREW: Mmm. BARBARA: You know, so he ... By the time it was done, it was just like covered in pictures and symbols and Sufi prayers and all kinds of other prayers and blessings [00:26:48] and gratitude and things for him. So, you know, he was sent off to his, you know, final physical whatever before he got cremated in this, not a beautiful wooden brass box, but this cardboard, little, holy, humble, cardboard box decorated with all this love and amazement. It was just really different than anything I'd ever experienced before and just how loved he was by the community and it [00:27:19] was just a really really awesome experience. It's amazing. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: Okay, happy interlude's done. ANDREW: Happy interlude's done! (laughing) ANDREW: You know, I mean I guess, I think that there's something that I'm curious about. Now you're talking about social media again, right? You know? And like, are you going to go back? Do you ... is there anything [00:27:49] that you need from it? If you go back, how does it ... how does it impact your way of formulating your identity, you know and like those kinds of things? And I'm really, I'm really interested in this right now because .... Because in some ways, I feel like, you know, not, not recently but sort of historically, I've been somewhat absent from my social [00:28:19] media. You know, my social media has always been about the work or the things versus about me as a person. You know? And, not entirely but I mean, the podcast is definitely the place where, you know, I'm more visible, you know, or I'm more audible, I guess, as the case may be. And, you know, and I've been consciously changing that over the last while. You know? And changed [00:28:50] in part because of some conversations I had with, you know, Carrie and a few other people about stuff. But mostly they're changing because I had this dream ... I often have dreams with Andy Warhol in them. And you know, he often comes to give me advice and tell me about stuff, and in some ways, my return to making art is also at his prompting. And the first dream that I [00:29:20] had, I was hanging out with Andy at his famous warehouse, you know, and we were there talking about making art and being seen and all of this kind of stuff. And he kind of like, we were talking, like, and he just stopped the conversation at one point in the middle of like something else, and he goes, “Andrew, you don't understand, you're a magnificent weirdo, and the world needs that right now. The world needs you to show everybody [00:29:50] your magnificent weirdness because that's what they're, what's important, and that's what's going to, you know, be significant about your work and your art and all of these things.” And I was like, in the dream I was like, “All right, Andy, I can do that. No problem,” right? And then we went on to talk about making art and other things and so on, right? And before we went on, though, he also turned around and sort of announced loudly to everyone's faces, you know, “Andrew's a magnificent weirdo, and you all should be paying attention to what he's doing,” right? [00:30:20] Something like that. And so, I've been thinking about Andy Warhol, and thinking about social media, and thinking about all of these kinds of things, and really endeavoring to sort of engage it on my own terms, you know, and really sort of share what I think is important or helpful. Helpful—helpful's the wrong word for it. Cause I'm not so interested in what's helpful. But share what [00:30:50] feels really real and what feels really particular to me, you know? And you know, I made this shirt up, that I started wearing around, that says “magnificent weirdo” on it. BARBARA: Aw! ANDREW: Which I find particularly amusing. You know, it's kind of my talismanic t-shirt, so. BARBARA: Oh! I love that! You ARE a magnificent weirdo. That's ... How wonderful to have Andy Warhol as your advisor and, well, maybe not muse, but your advisor ... (laughs) ANDREW: For sure. Yeah. For sure, right? BARBARA: Mm-hmm. [00:31:21] Does that mean you're starting to engage your social media more as ... more personally, then? ANDREW: Yeah, definitely more personally. Definitely, I'm showing up there more. I'm sharing more of my life, you know, definitely, it's definitely a thing that's sort of continuing to emerge, you know, and especially as I'm getting into making art, like I don't know what these bird things are going to be, but I'm going [00:31:51] to share that process and journey along the way, you know. And, yeah, sharing more of my personal story and that kind of stuff. So, whereas in the past, I would sort of have tended to just leave stuff alone until it felt resolved and then share the resolved story of it, you know, so. BARBARA: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's something that I've always ... I haven't always successfully done but I've always tried. Like, I knew [00:32:21] this one teacher who was talking about, you know, public speaking, and writing, and you know, you and your audience and he said, “Don't work your shit out in front of your audience.” ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: And you know, so I've always tried to not do that. You know, like these people aren't here to be my therapy session. They're here to learn what I learned, you know to get something helpful but--to use your word--but maybe [00:32:51] that's not the only way to think about sharing. Maybe the only purpose of sharing isn't only what you may deem as helpful or a nice clean process or technique that you can also use to change your life or fix your life or improve your life. Just sharing your unique and awesome weirdness might have value. I don't ... How would you say that? Because you said not [00:33:21] necessarily be helpful, cause you're not interested in that. So, what is the effect, then? ANDREW: So, I mean, for me the effect is ... and you know, I think it'll be interesting what comes back for people who listen to this episode, right? You know, I think that what happens is there's this notion that people who are in positions like we're in, right? You know, like working as a [00:33:51] card reader, having a degree of success, having published and done other things, right? That somehow, we've all got our shit together and we don't struggle and nothing's difficult, you know, and I think that you know, sort of, “Wow, you know, I mean, Barbara Moore didn't just bounce right back after the death of her dad, I guess I can cut myself some slack.” Or, you know, look at that, we're all human, or you know, like these kinds of things, I think that that's [00:34:21] that that's part of it. And I also think that, particularly in the magnificent weirdo case, you know, I mean I was ... I hadn't realized that I used this phrase until someone started mirroring it back to me every time I used it, which is, you know, I would say, “Well, it's funny being me sometimes,” and then I would like say something [00:34:51] that was like, really really different about my life compared to many people's lives, right? And you know, and they were .... this person was always amused by it. But I started to realize that like, my, I don't see my life as a role model at all, but my life is super radically different than so many people's. You know? I mean, you know, we talked a little bit about but, before about this, I've mentioned before in the podcast, [00:35:21] I'm getting divorced right now, right? You know. Myself and Hanlon sort of both realized that you know, after quite a stretch of time, we've come to this place where what we want and who we've become is just different, you know? We really, you know, have a very different ... We have different goals and they don't really line up in ways that don't start to kind of curtail each other's possibilities, [00:35:51] right? Which is something that neither of us is really wanting to happen, right? You know. So, you know, so this year has been, has been, really, like the last six months has been working through that process and so on, right? But, you know, I mean, I'm ... I've been in a non-monogamous relationship for, you know, the last three and a half, four years or something. And, you know, [00:36:21] before we had kids, almost the whole time of our relationship before that. So, I'm not ending this relationship and then figuring out who am I and how do I start dating again and you know, all of these kinds of things. You know, I mean, I have a relationship with, you know, this person, Sarah, who I've been seeing for two-and-a-half years, and there are other dates that I've gone on and other connections and so on. So, even just that: it's such a [00:36:51] different perspective than almost anybody that I know in that regard. Right? And doing what I do for a living, and you know, my religious practices, and like so many of the things that I do are just so radically different and, not that that is either a role model or the way in which people should see things or whatever, but I find that as I share those things, it's ... It [00:37:21] opens up people's ideas and sort of gives them permission to be like, huh? Well, what would I like to do that's maybe not the thing that's done. Or what would, you know, am I interested in these sort of ideas that I've been living? Do they serve me anymore? You know? Or maybe I've always wanted to be more this way or that way or whatever and so sort of seeing those things happen in other people's lives, you [00:37:51] know, to get ... It's a, it's a chance to inspire people not to be like me, but to be like themselves, right? So, yeah and again, not in a like, “I've got it figured out in this and that whatever way, cause it's not like that at all, right? But in a like, huh, you know, hang out with me as an invitation to be fully yourself, right? You know. [00:38:21] And for a lot of people, you know, that's not necessarily something that they get a lot of invitation to, right? So. BARBARA: Yeah! Right. Probably not nearly enough people get that invitation. There's so many other forces helping tell us who we should be and how to live. ANDREW: Right? Yeah. And internalized forces too, right? Like even if, even if they're not around us now, you know, those older voices, they can still kick around, right? BARBARA: Oh, [00:38:51] and maybe even like instinctual survival impulses, you know, like to survive in the world you have to be successful and you have to be this .... ANDREW: Yeah. BARBARA: You know, and so, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, there's a lot trying to box us in and very little inviting us out. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. Yeah. BARBARA: But then we have an awesome weirdo to help us! ANDREW: (laughing) Yeah. BARBARA: (laughing) Yeah, I definitely get and [00:39:21] appreciate the value of that approach, and its budding up against one of my older, and perhaps, just society's older idea. You know, if someone's going to write a book or teach, you expect them, or this used to be true, or maybe it was just true for me and people like me, you expect them to be masters of what they're teaching. And therefore, we get all worked out and you [00:39:52] know, when a book comes out or a kit or a deck comes out, it's usually a really happy excited moment, like, “Oh, my thing has hit the world and it's out there.” And I didn't really have that same experience with one of my recent books, The Modern Guide to Energy Clearing? ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: Because, you know, I wrote the book based on my experiences. And now I'm, [00:40:22] this past year, I've been in a place where, I feel like, if I would have practiced everything I preached in that book, I'd be way further along than I am now, in terms of adjusting, and I don't know, not being in this black alchemical place. But it made me shy, maybe a little embarrassed, to go .... because there were a lot of publicity opportunities, unlike all my tarot stuff, [00:40:52] which there's hardly any, with this book there were invitations to radio shows and bookstores and all kinds of things, and I didn't do all of them. I did some of them because I felt like I owed it to the book and to my publisher. And you know, you have a responsibility when you're partnering with a publisher. It's not just your thing. It's their investment as well. And I think part of what made me really shy about it is cause I was in the midst of [00:41:23] “You guys, I have these tools, these techniques, these skills, this knowledge and I am too--I am too raw to do 'em. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: And, it just felt almost hypocritical, and perhaps there needs to be another book, or maybe just an article that explains when you're doing energy work, sometimes you have to just let things sit and decompose and [00:41:53] you don't always get to control how fast that happens. So, yeah. ANDREW: I think that this idea of the ... like the wise teacher who's got their, all their stuff together. I think it's really a problem. I think it's really dishonest and [00:42:23] I think that it's why .... I think that it's one of the forces that allows so many problematic things to exist in a variety of communities, right? I think that it's one of the things that you know, at it ... at one of its worsts, right? encourages, you know, stuff that we could, you know, that the me too movement seeks to address, right? Because the perception is that these teachers [00:42:53] or leaders or community people or whatever, you know, in the spiritual communities have their stuff so together, right? And how could they not? And therefore this other person must be the problem? You know. I think it's one of the mechanisms which that happens under. And I think that ... I think that it sort of comes out of the sort of ... Well, I mean, I don't know where it originates from, but like in the ceremonial stuff in the more hierarchical [00:43:23] and initiatory things that I used to be involved in, in those ways. There was this notion that somehow, we would become perfect. Right? We would become enlightened. We would achieve these things. You know, but like, you know, my elders in, you know, in the Lukumí tradition, they're always like, “I'm just a person doing things. I'm doing my best, but like, I'm not perfect.” And there's no expectation to be perfect. [00:43:53] There's an expectation to cultivate character, to work on yourself, to you know, to grow, to be honest, and you know, and ideally to sort of continually seek out those things in yourself that you might need to work on in one way or another. But there's no expectation to sort of necessarily be perfect or, you know, be free of humanness, because it's not about transcendence, it's about living in this world, right? [00:44:23] And I think that a lot of the, you know, especially the stuff that people might refer to as sort of the love and light movement, you know? It's so ... there's so much emphasis on sort of transcendence and so on that, you know, that we continually hear about these people whose humanness re-emerges or finally is seen in a certain way. And then ... and then what does that mean for those people, you know? From my point of view, It doesn't mean anything. Just like you being raw, of [00:44:53] course you're raw after all of these losses, right? Of course you are. Because you know, we shouldn't deny the reality or the shadow or you know, our suffering, because life is hard, but we can work at handling it easier, better, more consciously. You know? Maybe more consciously is the best way to frame it, but that doesn't mean that we're suddenly able to do everything, you know? I mean, I keep joking--and maybe it's not even a joke anymore, [00:45:23] maybe it's just a statement of what's going to happen. You know when the separation happens and we both have our own places and whatever. I'm like, I'm just gonna sleep for a week. It's going to be like, the first week I'm just gonna be like, okay, shut everything off and just stay in bed and order pizzas and, you know, nap a lot and watch Netflix, cause, you know, I need some like nothing time. I need some recharging after all this work, you know? And I think that, you know, that's valid. [00:45:53] You know? That's not anti-spiritual. You know? Oh well. I feel like I'm ranting now so I'll stop. BARBARA: Yeah, no, you're preaching, preach it, brother! (laughing) I'm ... Congregation of one, right here! ANDREW: Yeah. BARBARA: Yeah, no, it reminds me of a funny thing my ... one of my sisters would always say to me. Well, not always, it's happened a couple of times when I have like very obviously and [00:46:23] clearly fallen short of my own ideals and I'm all upset about it. And she's like, “I love it when this happens to you.” “What do you mean?” “Because you seem more human to me in these moments.” And this is my sister, you know, and I don't want any walls between her and I and I don't want to be on a higher place or on some transcendent plane or whatever. I [00:46:53] want to be with her. And so, when I screw up, that's when I'm with her more, at least on some level. ANDREW: Yeah for sure. Well, it's, you know ... I've been doing ... For the last few years, I've been doing a lot of rock climbing. And you know, I've been sort of ramping back into it after being injured doing something else earlier in the year and climbing with some old friends, but some new climbing partners. And [00:47:23] the one, the guy was like, “It makes me so happy when I see you struggle on the wall. I'm sorry, but like usually you're just so graceful about it that I feel like it just looks so easy to you, and even though you come down and I can see that you're like panting cause it was so hard, you made it look so easy that it just makes me feel bad about myself. So, when you struggle it makes me feel better about myself!” And I'm like, that's fine. That's fair too. Right? Like, you know. I think that that's, that's part of it, right? [00:47:53] You know, when we get to see other people's humanity, then we get to see and make space for our own, in one way or another, right? So. BARBARA: Yeah. Yeah. Well, you said the idea of the wise old teacher has some inherent problem. And maybe people in general, or maybe a new idea of the archetypal teacher is starting to emerge, or maybe a new facet of it, as we're starting [00:48:23] to explore, you know, or maybe things will change, maybe we'll expect different things from our teachers. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I think that what I expect of my teachers are really kind of two things. You know, you used the word mastery earlier, right? And I think that certainly knowledge, right? You know, I mean, I expect them to really deeply know what they're, like, I'm there to learn knowledge from [00:48:53] them. And, so that's one part of it. And then the other part is, you know, is like honest relationships, you know? And having honest relationships debate what's going on and what's going on with them and space for me to be honest about what's going on for me and so on. You know, I think that those things together are what I really expect, you know, and like, you know, it's I've had the chance to meet a lot [00:49:23] of people who, you know, in one way or other, people would see as sort of wise masters or whatever, you know? And they're lovely human beings, and they're still human beings. You know? And I think that that's never not going to be the case, right? You know? Yeah. BARBARA: Well, I told you earlier one of the things that I ... the only thing I did really to prepare for today's conversation was to [00:49:53] relisten to last year's podcast. ANDREW: Yeah. BARBARA: And, you were just ... sounded like you were just starting to explore something kind of new and interesting that I was excited to hear more about and now I'd love to hear more about the work with meteorites and moldavite. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think that ... I think in some ways that [00:50:23] work was precipitation of the separation and divorce stuff, right? You know? I mean, I think that the idea of ... I mean, you know, it certainly wasn't consciously formulated, but, you know, the sort of idea of possibly, you know, I mean, the metaphor that I was working with of was like the idea of moving to [00:50:53] a bigger space, right? Leaving the planet and being an interstellar traveler and sort of engaging a bigger world, a variety of planets, you know, like this kind of idea, right? And I think that one of the things that that energy supported me through was and is through the idea of separating from my partner of 21 years, so that's definitely been a part of it. I [00:51:23] also feel like this one's harder to talk about it because I feel like it's still underway, but I feel like the shop that I have, my work as a deck creator and author, and my work magically have all been sort of escalating into new places. And I feel like, [00:51:53] especially sort of going into next year, I'm going to be really living a completely different reality. And I imagine there's going to be a lot more space for my spiritual stuff in that newer reality. So, I think that that's a part of what's come of that transition. And also, I think the other thing that I've sort of ... I'm [00:52:23] still working on sorting it out on a practical level, but there's this ... There's this software company, or company that makes a software called Basecamp, and they structure their company work around these eight-week cycles. So basically, they, one of the things that I heard about what they do is that they have a six-week [00:52:53] work cycle, one week of cleanup and planning the next work cycle, and then they take a week off. And I've been really sort of starting to think about how do I, in order to make the arts and the magic and the other things that I would want to be doing and feel called to be doing, I need more space, right? I need more time. And you know, so I've been, I also [00:53:23] feel like that changing notion of what my space and time is going to look like is also kind of come out of that work, right? This idea that I can be somehow in between things. You know? Now's the time where I'm on Mars doing Mars things, and now I'm back floating in the space of my in-between time, doing whatever that is, and then go back to the next place, and you know, and the metaphor doesn't entirely hold but I think the idea, you know, makes [00:53:53] sense, right? That, so it's really ... It's about allowing. Allowing for the space and letting go of all those sort of structures and ideas that sort of hinder that possibility and making space for that to happen, you know? And I mean, I'm not sure how long it's going to take for me to completely reorganize my life and work and other things into that, into that direction. You know, it might take another year or whatever. But it doesn't really matter. But I feel [00:54:23] like all of those pieces kind of come out of, come out of that work that started with the meteorites, you know, a year or so ago. BARBARA: Cool, thanks. Thanks for sharing that. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: Yeah, it's a work of shedding and becoming, right? You know, and I don't think that I was aware of the shedding of house. I was aware of the shedding at a sort of big picture level, but I wasn't aware of it as a sort of more personal [00:54:53] level when I started that. So, yeah. BARBARA: Yeah. ANDREW: So, are you ... Do you think you're gonna find your way back to the to the wider world or do you think that you're ... I feel like you've been on a hermitage in the valley in the mountains. BARBARA: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: You know, do you feel like that's something that's just going to continue? Or do you feel like it's time to shift that? BARBARA: That is a really good question, [00:55:23] really pertinent question at this point. I have just been starting to have, like, actual feelings about wanting to come out of my hermitage. It's super hard to do that cause it's my natural inclination. It's where I would be, always, if people who loved me weren't concerned about my mental and emotional health (laughs), but [00:55:55] living here, but like I said, it's so old school that it really feeds that. Like when I was in the cities and when I was involved in the wider world, it ... sometimes it felt like if it isn't seen by people on the Internet, it isn't real? ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: And I'm sure that's just a me thing. I don't think it's like everybody has that feeling, but it was definitely affecting me like that. But there are, like there's [00:56:25] a women's circle here that meets every couple of weeks. It's, you know, not set, exactly, it's probably two or three weeks. And it's just some women who get together and just talk. And sometimes it's just casual talk, like book club level talk. And sometimes it's super deep. Then sometimes it's spiritual, sometimes it's scientific, and it's really great, but it's very small and it's just the valley, and it's not posted anywhere, and no one knows about it. It's not like [00:56:55] putting transcripts out for ... You know, it's not out there, it's just in, and like I said, just the cardboard signs, it's just all small and hidden away, kind of, and I really, it feels really safe, it feels really nice, it feels really authentic. It feels good to me. But, just over the past week or so, I have been like, I want to get out. I want to take a class. I want to [00:57:25] do something. But then I second-guess myself cause one of the things when I was in the midst of stuff this year, I kept wanting to sign up for a class or do this or do that and Dylan's like, “You know, you do have this tendency that whenever you're avoiding dealing with something, you want to take a class.” (laughs) You know, and ... ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: Oh, okay, that makes sense. So now I'm in this space where I'm feeling this urge. Like I don't really know exactly what I want to do, but I want to get out of here. I want to have some [00:57:55] some regular contact with the outside world in some way. And I'm like, oh, does this mean I'm, you know, coming up against my emotions about my dad and haven't dealt with them yet and I'm trying to avoid that? So, yeah, I am feeling it. Yes. I think it's going to happen. I'm not exactly sure when or how it's going to happen. Earlier you had mentioned when you said you were gonna interview me and some people said to say hi and whatnot. It [00:58:25] make my heart really happy and also a little sad and very emotional. Many feelings were happening and it was like well, maybe I could be back on Facebook, and maybe I could just post about my life like I used to, and maybe that's okay. And I hadn't really been this close to thinking that in a couple of years. So. And as far as like work, I mean I have still worked. Even though I said I [00:58:55] had the year off, I have written two books and designed a deck. So, it's not like I haven't been doing stuff to put out there, but I haven't been super publicity-oriented. I haven't been teaching. I've had invitations to workshops and to teach classes, which is more public, more connected with the world, and I keep turning them down. I still think I'm not interested in that. I think I did that a lot because it was expected. It was a natural part of this [00:59:25] work that you and I do, and I think I can be good at it. But I'm not sure if I love it. Yeah, so I'm still struggling about, you know, do I want to keep doing that or speaking at conferences or whatever. You know, especially these ones where it's like you have 50 minutes. Because I feel like a lot of the things I'm thinking about now .... They're not like, here's a simple technique that you can use. It's more like, here's a book [00:59:55] on what I thought about this one thing. You know, I just ... So, yeah, but I would love to take an art class. I think that's what I would like. I think that's one thing my art is missing, is because I do love the process of it and that's more important than the outcome, but there's still something fulfilling about increasing your skill and being able to skillfully make what you're envisioning, you [01:00:25] know, so I would like that, and I think with that if I had some, you know, peers who are struggling as well as a teacher who's helping guide, that would probably be really good. So ... ANDREW: Mm-hmm. BARBARA: Of course, the nearest place to take art classes around here is an hour and a half away, but that's what happens when you live here in the mountains. ANDREW: Right. BARBARA: So. ANDREW: I wonder if there are ... I wonder, are there are other artists in the community that you could hang out and have conversations with and so on, [01:00:55] you know? As somebody who went to art school, I'm always ... I'm cynical about art and art lessons and art school and formal training and all of those things because it basically, you know, in my experience, and my experience is very particular, but it basically just ruined all of that for me for a very long time, you know? So, but it depends on who you're working with and why, right? So. BARBARA: Yeah. [01:01:31] Well, and this wouldn't be like an art school or even a college art course, it's just workshops held at the local art store. You know. I don't know how that is, cause I've never taken, you know, an art school class. So I don't know. Yeah. That or, or, the other thing I'd been excited about when we moved here was the idea of pursuing interfaith ministry. I haven't ... I thought I'd be a year into those studies already, back in the days when I thought everything was going to be fine. And I haven't done anything [01:02:01] with it and I'm still thinking about that. I haven't really ... The only work ritual designing I've done this year was had to do with Carol and Noel, because they ... when Noel's end was getting really close, they were like, well, you know, most marriage ceremonies say, have the words “until death do us part,” and the marriage ceremony itself is a ritual. And yet when one of the partners dies, there's [01:02:31] no ritual, you know, to wrap it up because if it's till death do you part, then what then? What, you know? And how do we untie this bond that we've made or do we, and to what extent or whatever? So, you know, we talked about that for a while and you know, kind of came to grips with what they wanted to do with each other. And then, of course, the challenge, because Noel by this time was not always with us mentally, you know, so keeping it [01:03:01] short and simple, you know, just a little ceremony for them to both release each other and to reaffirm their eternal love, in whatever way is appropriate, in the next life, perhaps, because they believe in reincarnation, you know, so you tie up all their beliefs into this ritual and knowing that was really satisfying and fulfilling, you know, just like other ceremonies I have done, so that's still there too. ANDREW: [01:03:31] Yeah. At some point in the next little bit, Hanlon and I are going to go back to the place where we, where we performed our marriage ceremony, because we basically married ourselves, right? And we're going to ... and we're going to release the relationship, right? You know, and we're going to ... You know, we have these relatively simple silver rings. We're going to break them and then we're going to take this over and we'll have them melted down into stuff for the kids. So we'll [01:04:01] make a pendant for each of the kids, and then they can have that, but it won't be the ring anymore, you know. And you know, we have some other things that are sort of remnants of the original ceremony and stuff like that, which we're going to, you know, release in one way or another at the place where we did the ceremony as a way of just basically being like, you know, all right, you know, we signed the papers, we've done whatever, but also, I release everything, like this is just gone now, you know? And I think that that [01:04:31] kind of stuff is really important, you know? And I think that around death, around this, around all of it. It's really important, right? That's why these rituals matter, so. BARBARA: Yeah. Well, that's beautiful. Good for you guys. ANDREW: But first, it's also going to be winter, so it's out on the island in Toronto. It's gonna be very cold and it's not going to be inviting like when, you know, we got married in the summer and we went for a swim afterwards in the lake and stuff. I don't think any of that's going to be happening, but, yeah not really into hypothermia anyway. [01:05:01] BARBARA: But, also, it's kind of symbolically significant. ANDREW: For sure. Yeah. For sure. Well, maybe that's a good place to wrap this up for today. BARBARA: Yeah. ANDREW: Pursue things that are symbolically significant, people, be human. BARBARA: (laughing) That's right! ANDREW: Be weirdos! Hang out! Have fun! Thanks. Thanks so much for following up. I know, I know that this is a challenging time and I think that, I think [01:05:31] that what I've come to think about social media and about these kinds of things like the podcast and so on is, there's so much cynicism about it all, you know, people are so cynical and hear so many things about how meaningless it is and so on, and yet, personally I have some tremendously deep connections with people that are fostered, born, supported, or whatever out of, you [01:06:01] know, out of these things, and I think that if we're able to show up there consciously, then it can become something quite different. If we, if we do that. Otherwise, yeah, sure, we can share cat memes till the cows come home and they're funny, but you know, I'm not sure how many of them I remember down the road, right? BARBARA: Exactly, exactly! ANDREW: For sure. So, in case you decide to start blogging again, or whatever, where should people come and follow you, Barbara? BARBARA: Yeah. Okay. My website is still the same, tarotshaman.com. My email is on there, BarbaraMoore07@comcast.net. [01:06:37] Please feel free to write, reach out. I may not be on social media, but I still do like hearing people and connecting, and even, keep your eyes open, you never know. I might come back and join the land of the living, join the the Magnificent weirdness that ... ANDREW: Come down off the mountain, Barbara! Come back to the city. (laughing) BARBARA: Yes. Yes. Yes. Come hang out! We can have market days or something. ANDREW: Yeah, exactly, exactly. Awesome. BARBARA: [01:07:10] Well, thank you so much for having me. I am already looking forward to next year. ANDREW: Perfect!
Tiny Farms CEO and co-founder Andrew Brentano thinks cricket protein will ensure future food security. Tiny Farms is an AgTech and Precision Farming company that produces food grade cricket protein for use in pet food and animal feed applications offering a sustainable, safe, reliable protein source for pets, livestock animals, and people.Transcript:Lisa:This is Method To The Madness, a biweekly public affairs show on KALX Berkeley, celebrating Bay Area innovators. I'm your host Lisa Kiefer. Today, I'm speaking with Andrew Brentano, the Co-Founder and CEO of tiny farms. Welcome to the program, Andrew.Andrew:Oh, thank you.Lisa:You are the perfect guest for a show about innovation. Co-Founder of Tiny Farms. First of all, tell us what Tiny Farms does, and what is the problem you're trying to solve.Andrew:We are basically, precision ag company. What we're doing, is we're trying to grow a whole lot of crickets. The big problem we're addressing is that we basically cannot produce enough animal protein to keep up with the demand. We've got growing population, growing per capita consumption and also a really huge growing pet food market, which is consuming a huge amount of meat. Traditional meat consumption, your livestock, your pigs, your chickens and your cows, is a hugely resource-intensive endeavor.You're concentrating huge amounts of feed, 25 30% of all the crop lands on earth are just growing feed for animals. Then we're also grazing about 25% of the earth's surface for cattle. There's really not any room to expand. We really have to find these higher efficiency ways to supply that animal protein that people need.Lisa:You have found, what I think is a pretty unique niche in this market of cricket farming, protein farming. I know the argument about cattle using energy and all of that, but what you're saying is that dogs, chickens, all of these other animals. If we can feed those animals your product, we can make equivalent savings, maybe?Andrew:Yeah. We can offset these huge resource environmental footprints. If we take the pet food example, in the US, we're feeding about 30 billion pounds or more of meat just to dogs and cats every year. That market is growing like 6% year over year. If we can, instead produce crickets, which use just a tiny fraction of the food and the water and the space required, we can essentially get more from less. We can meet this demand without just completely overextending our current resources.Lisa:Okay. When did you start this company?Andrew:We started in late 2012. We initially got the idea ... of course it took a while for markets to actually developed. We were a little bit ahead of the curve. We've been-Lisa:Do you mind if I ask how you came to this? Were you doing market analysis studies or looking at big data? How did you figure out that this was a niche?Andrew :In that moment, what we were doing was really just thinking about big existential problems. We were trying to decide what should we be spending our time and energy on and had really started drilling into food production. Everyone's got to eat. It's the largest and most resource-intensive endeavor that humans do on this planet and also one of the most immediately going to be effected by climate change, population growth, et cetera. What we realized when we were diving in was that meat production was this huge concentration of where all the resources were going, It was the most inefficient place and also the highest demand. Everyone wants to eat meat. We thought, wow, this is-Lisa:Yes. Especially with incomes going up.Andrew:Exactly.Lisa:First thing they want to do is have the steak that you and I have.Andrew :Exactly.Lisa:Right?Andrew:This westernization of diets around the globe, all these trends were pointing to essentially meat crunch in really the relatively near future. People need this protein, but how do we produce protein more efficiently but that still has a high-quality nutritional profile? We're looking at agriculture. We were looking at algae and fungus. Then we came across a body of research about insects and their nutritional values and their production efficiencies, historical uses around the world, and it just made so much sense.Lisa:Who's using crickets? I assume some of these countries have been using crickets for thousands of years, is that correct?Andrew:Yeah. Particularly in Oaxaca, in Mexico and some other Central American cultures. There are long traditions of eating crickets and grasshoppers, both interchangeably. A number of African cultures also like different types of crickets that are native, crickets and katydids. Then in Thailand, more recently, I think there's been a long tradition of eating different insects. Very recently, there's been quite a growth in, particularly the cricket market there. The Thai government has even, for the last 10, 20 years been sponsoring and promoting this. There's now tens of thousands of small backyard cricket farms supporting those largely street markets.Lisa:How did you start? Were you right out of college, or what was your motivation here?Andrew:I guess, I was about two and a half years out of college. I went to University of British Columbia, studied absolutely unrelated to agriculture, a program called cognitive systems. It was AI information systems, linguistics. What that did instill was this mindset of systems thinking. I'd worked an AI startup. My Co-Founder Jenna, who's now is my wife, had been working for an artist. She went to Rhode Island School of Design. She was managing an artist business in LA. We'd been living in LA for a couple of years and decided this wasn't fulfilling. This wasn't really where we wanted to be or what we wanted to be doing.That was where we took a summer, went and started doing freelance web development just to pay the bills and took this time to decide what are we going to do with our lives that's can be meaningful. That's what led us into this. It was important that, you we found something that we could do that would apply our creativity and actually be meaningful. HLisa:You know how we're all about organic and sustainable. How does that fit into the cricket industry? What do they eat? How do you follow the path to make sure they're sustainable and that they're organic?Andrew:Yeah. The great thing about crickets is they'll eat anything, pretty much. I mean, they're basically omnivorous. Anything you could feed a pig, or a chicken, or a cow, or basically any other kind of animal, they can eat. They really have a very high, what's called feed conversion ratio, which is basically the amount of food they have to eat to grow a certain weight as a ratio. With crickets, it's about 1.7:2 pounds of food to get 1 pound of cricket. To give comparison, chickens are more like 3:1. Pigs are between 4 and 6:1. Cows can range from 8:20:1, depending on what the diets are. Even if you fed them the exact same thing you fed a commercial chicken, you're using much less of that feed.You've got this corresponding, way much smaller land and water footprint. Then because they are so efficient converting that feed and they'll eat anything, we can then take food by-product streams and agricultural by-product streams and incorporate that into the feed formula. That can range anything from stale bread, which commercial bakeries, large scale ones are producing millions of pounds of stale bread or excess bread. They essentially overproduce by about two what they actually sell. Then we can also go to agricultural processing. There are huge streams of by-products, like dried distiller grains that come out of ethanol production, spent brewer's grain, juice pulp from the citrus industry.Lisa:The wine industry.Andrew:The wine industry. Exactly. Almond holes are huge one in the United States, or in California alone, we're producing 150 million tons of almond holes every year.Lisa:They're kind of like goats in the insect world.Andrew:Yeah.Lisa:They'll clean everything up.Andrew:Right. All we have to do is balance the different inputs, so we get the nutritional profile that grows the cricket efficiently We understand that pretty well. We can basically say, okay, we'll take 20% of this, 30% of that, 50% of that, blended altogether, and then we can just grow our crickets.Lisa:You been able to notice differences in tastes of your crickets by what you're feeding them?Andrew:One of the reasons crickets are so good, is they have a pretty mild and generally pleasant taste regardless what you feed them. You definitely can tell different things. You'll get either a nuttier cricket. Sometimes it'll be because the cricket is a little fatty or a little leaner.Lisa:What would you feed it to make it fatty?Andrew:You could feed it, for one, more fat or a higher carb diet. You can make it leaner by having more of a protein and fiber formulation. We've fed them carrots in the past and they turn just a tiny hue, more orange. They actually pick up a tiny bit of that sweeter carrot taste.Lisa:Do you ever feed them chocolate?Andrew :We've never fed them chocolate. It's a bit expensive.Lisa:How do your vegetarian or vegan customers feel about this product? Do they have any concerns?Andrew:There's two camps. There's one camp where folks are vegetarian and vegan primarily because of sustainability issues, humane treatment of animals, ethical issues. Those are exactly the issues that we're targeting and trying to address with cricket production. Those folks are generally very, very receptive to incorporating insect protein into their own diets. What's really exciting for these people is when we say, yeah, did you know there's dog and cat food you can get with insect protein? You've got vegetarians and vegans, but they still have a pet cat that they have to feed meat too.It creates a real dissonance for them. It's an amazing solution for those folks. Then there's folks that maybe have a religious or spiritual aversion to actually eating living animals. For those folks, that's fine. That's a different set of issues. Insects are living things, and if they decide that's not what they want to eat, it's not the product for them. We generally think that we have a great solution for the folks that really see the fundamental environmental and ethical issues around meat production.Lisa:If you're just tuning in, you're listening to Method To The Madness, a biweekly public affairs show on KALX Berkeley, celebrating Bay Area innovators. Today, we're speaking with Andrew Brentano, the Co-Founder and CEO of Tiny Farms. Tiny Farms is building the infrastructure for a new category of our food system, cricket protein, one that will play a big part in ensuring future food security. Talking about your products, and you just covered one, which is feeding pets. What other products do you have, and who are your customers?Andrew:Our core business is the design and development of a high-efficiency cricket production facility. That's really the big problem. We want to get crickets out into the market, but how do you do that? How do you produce enough crickets cheap enough that it can actually become this bulk commodity that could reasonably offset traditional meats. In a way, our core product is actually this method for producing them and then also how do you process them into palatable ingredient.Lisa:I read that your method was unique in that it avoids the monoculture of most agriculture.Andrew:Yeah. One of the fundamental problems that we see in traditional livestock production, farming in general, is that you have these huge centralized productions, whether it's, say 10 thousand acres of soy beans or if it's a mile-long chicken house with 4 million chickens in it. When you think about ecosystems and biology, that's a really unhealthy ecosystem. Also, it's incredibly risky because if something comes in there that's a blight, or past, or a disease [ 00:10:48], it just can, wipe out everything very quickly.The approach that we take is a more distributed model where we'll set up smaller production units, and then we'll put them around in a cluster, in a region. That way, you never have this just huge, enormous centralized population issues of just having a lot of animals in place, breathing and pooping and eating and all of that mess and the potential for pollution. Also, that you significantly reduce this biological risk.Lisa:Crickets get disease and die out like other ...Andrew:We've been lucky. We've never had a blight. We have a very tightly controlled environment, keep the biosecurity levels pretty high. There have been, in actually a different species of cricket than when we grow, there is a disease. It only affects crickets. There's no risk to any people or animals but that have gone around and wiped out some of the cricket farms that have existed in the US. One of the cool things about insects, again, too, is that biologically they're so different from people that you don't have the same zoonotic transfer of diseases the way that you've got your swine flu or your bird flu, which can jump to humans. It's this huge health risk.Every animal has diseases and parasites that can affect them. The cricket is so different. Its life cycle's so different. They don't carry that kind of disease that could jump to a human. It's much safer. Even with a mosquito or a tick, they're transmitting a disease, because they're actually holding some like human blood, Mammalian blood in them. It's not that that animal itself actually gets a disease that can transfer to a human.Lisa:You have a cricket powder, but that's primarily for feeding animals. Does it also go into human-Andrew:We produce this cricket protein powder. It's completely food grade. It's completely perfect to use in human food products or pet food products. We focus on the pet food market, because we see a really, really big opportunity to offset a lot more of the consumption in that space. There are a ton of human food products out on the market, and a bunch of being produced right here in the Bay Area. Chips and snack foods and energy bars and baking flour mixes and stuff that-Lisa:With cricket powder.Andrew:With cricket flour. Yeah. Exactly. In that market, it's awesome. It's a really great way to start introducing to people this idea that they can eat crickets. Long-term, the best possible thing is we stop eating animals as much and we eat much more insect protein. Put it in something that people want to eat anyways, crunchy, healthy snacks.To really have the big impact we want to have, we have to figure out how we can start really replacing the meat that we're using as quickly as possible and as big of volume as possible. That's where we're really focusing on the pet angle. There's actually another company here in Berkeley called Jiminy's. They've released a line of dog treats. The only animal protein in that dog treat is cricket protein. Dogs love this stuff.Lisa:You don't have any retail human products yourself as a company.Andrew:We do supply another brand that is currently distributed at the Oakland Days Coliseum and it's called Oaktown Crickets. In the cricket production, get more into how that works. You harvest most of the crickets at a certain stage in their life when they've got the optimal protein content to make into the protein powder. Then you maintain a chunk of your population to go through adulthood and breed your next generation. Those breeders, we call them, they've got a higher fat content because they're, particular the females, are full of eggs. They're really, really tasty.In Thailand, those are the prized ones that people want. They'll fry them up and sell them in the market. For the protein powder application, they're not very useful. What we do is, those get sold for culinary use. We had local chefs use them in different specials, and then they're being fried and seasoned and packaged in little snack packs and distributed at the Colosseum. [crosstalk] Extra tasty.Lisa:One of your main goals is to address the challenges that are facing agriculture, what we just talked about. Are there any other challenges that you've experienced as you enter this marketplace?Andrew:One of the big fundamental things about how the agricultural system is set up is it's very linear. You extract resources, you dig up phosphorous, you create nitrates and nitrites for fertilizers. You pour them on the fields, you grow these plants, you harvest them out, you process them. You throw away the byproducts. Then you feed the animals, and the animals create a huge amount of poop. You don't know what to do with that. It just sits there. Then the animals get eaten. It's this very just linear extractive system of production.That's part of why we're having so many issues with soil degradation and waterway pollution. We're also just running out of phosphorus, which is its whole own problem. What we really see is an opportunity for insects is to help start close some of these loops and create more of a circular system. If you've got your wheat industry and it creates all of this chaff when you process the wheat into flour ... well if you can efficiently convert that, instead of just say composting it or throwing it out there or using it more inefficiently to feed dairy cow, you can turn that into a really high-quality protein, putting that through the base of the cricket as a bio converter.We've spent the same amount of nutrients and water to produce all parts of that plant. If you only eat a little bit of it, that's not very helpful. Then the cool thing about the crickets is, the waste they produce is completely dry and stable. They're not releasing-Lisa:The cricket poop.Andrew:The cricket poop.Lisa:What is it called?Andrew:It's called frass. That's the technical term for insect poops. It's basically the consistency of sand. If you go by Harris ranch or the big feed lots, and they're just-Lisa:Hold your nose.Andrew:Exactly. Producing huge amounts of nitrous oxide and methane and ammonia. These are greenhouse gas emissions that are many, many times more potent than CO2. Instead, you've got this very, stable, safe product that can be applied directly as soil. It's actually produced dry. You can cost effectively transport it. You-Lisa:And amend your soil with it.Andrew:Exactly. Yeah. You can take it back to the source of production, or you can put out into gardens, community gardens, home gardens, anywhere. The frass, which is our by-product, we've just recently gone through the approval process with the California Department of Agriculture to sell that as a retail fertilizer. We now have one pound and five pound bags of that.Lisa:Where could I find that?Andrew:We've just listed on Amazon, and we're starting to starting in the Berkeley area. We're getting it out to some of the local gardens stores. We're hoping that we'll have a chance to really take on a life of its own. Besides that, we're also able to sell that wholesale to bigger garden and farming operations in the area.Lisa:How did you find the funding to start all these operations?Andrew:Definitely, financing is the least fun and hardest part of starting a business. We were able to bootstrap the first several years. We were just actually building websites on the side while the initial pieces came together. Then when we realized that we really understood what the business model was going to be and what the growth plan was, we were able to go out and convince a handful of angel investors to come in and put enough money that we were able to launch our first R&D farm down in San Leandro.That was really just a process of getting out there, both going to pitch events, networking, going to basically the places where the kind of people are who care about sustainability and the food system, who understood the issues. Actually, a number of our investors found us, which was great. We had enough of a presence on social media and had been featured at a few events that they said, "Hey, I really believe in what you're doing." They understood why, and they knew it was going to be a long road to get there.They were very supportive. Then, from there, once you've got initial traction, then as you need more funding, you go out, find ways of getting in front of the right people and being able to tell that story and show how the payoff is going to happen down the road.Lisa:Everybody's pretty aware. It's a huge problem.Andrew:It's amazing how the awareness and focus changed from 2012 to now, because when we started and we're going out there saying, hey, insect protein is this amazing solution. People just raised eyebrows. Now, we go out there and people say, "Yeah, we know, but how are you going to implement it?" Which is much better conversation, because we actually get right into the meat of what we're doing and how we're solving the problem. We don't have to worry about spending half an hour just convincing someone that they should even take us seriously.Lisa:Who are your major competitors?Andrew:The industry is so new, The demand for the product keeps growing at a rate that, essentially, we're not able to directly compete, because we're all just trying to keep up with the scaling of demand. There's a farm down in Austin, Texas, which has gotten some great funding and done some cool stuff, building their operation. There's a big operation up in Ontario, Canada that's been one of the major suppliers in North America.Lisa:Internationally?Andrew:They're a good number of companies in Thailand and Southeast Asia, starting to be a little more presence in Mexico. When we think about it, for us to saturate this market, they're going to have to be thousands of cricket farms, right? We have this concept of a benign competition. When they have a win, that's good for us, because we're growing this opportunity together. It's much less cut throat than you find in more matured and saturated markets.Lisa:There's room to grow in it. Yeah. For sure.Andrew:Huge, huge opportunity.Lisa:Have you had any negative response?Andrew:Certainly. Particularly early on, you got a lot of ew, yuck. What are you doing? What's great about people, is that we really quickly get used to ideas. The same folks we would talk to six years ago and say, "Hey, we think you should try eating crickets." They'd say basically, "No way in hell would I do that." My test is based. I'm sitting on an airplane and the person next to me says, "Hey, what do you do?" How does that conversation go? Six years ago, went one way. Now, Lyft drivers or just folks out of the coffee shop I say, "Hey, we do cricket protein." Almost immediately, people now start telling me why it's a good idea. I mean, it's amazing how the public perception has shifted. I think it's really just a consequence of exposure.Lisa:If you can find a tasty way to get protein and not have to pay what you pay for meat ...Andrew:The market's so young. It's still a pretty premium product. The price point is similar to that of an equivalent meat product. So like the cricket protein powder is basically a dried ... It's 60% protein, 20% fat. It's this really nutrient dense product. It costs similarly as if you bought meat and dehydrated it. What that would cost, 15 to $20 a pound, which seems like a lot. Then you think you're reducing that down. You can get your fresh crickets. The costs of production is similar to your higher-end meat now. What's great is that's with really barely any R&D that's been done over the last few years.Lisa:Barely anybody in the marketplace.Andrew:Barely anyone in the marketplace. You think about what the price of chicken and beef is right now. That's the result of 50 years and trillions of dollars. Our industry, with five years and a few million dollars of development, is already getting competitive with meat. In the next few years, it's just going to soar below that, which is great. Up until very recently, there'd never been really any indication of actual opposition to the idea. It was just niche enough. No one was really worried about it. We did interestingly have the first high-profile shot across the bow.What happened was, late in July when the Senate was starting to go through their appropriations bill process, Senator Jeff Flake actually introduced a amendment that would specifically ban federal funding for research projects around insects for food use. This really caught us all off guard, what seemed to come out of absolutely nowhere.It was very strange and essentially someone had brought to the senator's attention that a handful of small innovation grants had gone out from the USDA to companies that were developing food products with insect protein. It's not the kind of thing that someone like Jeff Flake would just pick up. Someone out there suddenly cared enough to bring that to his attention. We don't really know exactly what went on there.Lisa:You don't know what went on.Andrew:Not yet. Yeah. We have an industry group. There's over 90 companies in the United States, Almost every state, there are companies working with insect protein, whether it's for pet food or animal feed or for human food, both on the production side and the product side. This is actually an amazing opportunity for American economic growth, American leadership. It's very surprising that something would come along like this that you would want to block federal research funding. Specifically, it's the small business innovation research grants that were being referenced. We've received some of the same grants as well.Lisa:Was that this year?Andrew:This was just a few months ago. Now, very luckily, that amendment was not accepted into the final version of the appropriations bill. We realize like, oh, there are people that care enough to start throwing up some roadblocks. That's actually a good sign for us that we're being taken seriously in that way.Lisa:That's a positive way to look at it.Andrew:For us, anytime that we have a conversation with someone and I convinced someone that they should take this seriously or they should go to A's game and buy a pack of crickets or they should go to the pet store and get some Jiminy's treats that they can feed their dog. That's a huge win for me.Lisa:Yeah.Andrew:Every time I'd ride in a Lyft or sit on an airplane, that's an opportunity. Yeah. I mean, there's already been this level of engagement, which is great.Lisa:I wanted to ask you about other projects. One of them I'm intrigued with is the Open Bug Farm.Andrew:In a earlier stage of our business development, we actually developed an open source mealworm farming kit, basically for people at home who are interested in this. The could either buy the kit from us or the designs were online. It was all off-the-shelf components, so they can make it themselves.Lisa:Like having chickens in your backyard.Andrew:That was the same kind of idea.Lisa:Instead, it's crickets.Andrew :Exactly how we were modeling it. In fact, a lot of the people who were interested in that, wanted to grow the mealworms to feed their chickens. That project didn't end up being really good business model for us. We didn't keep selling the kits, but we kept the designs for it out there. What was really great was around that project, we just launched a forum and a huge number of people came to that forum and asked questions and provided expertise. We were able to share some of our expertise on the topic.Now, there's this huge information resource that just has tons and tons of discussion about raising different kinds of insects at different scales, from commercial to home scale. We're really happy that exists out there. We get a lot of inquiries from people that say, "Hey, I just want to start growing some crickets for myself or some meal worms" or whatever it is. We don't have time to help every one of those people individually. We're able to say, "Hey, go over to the forum here, because there's just this huge drove information."Lisa:What do you see in the future?Andrew:Looking at the future, there's just so much room for growth. For us, the key thing is just get more commercial cricket farms built over the next years. Get the production ramped up, instead of just being able to have niche premium pet treats on the market. There can be full-diet pet foods and then maybe even your mainstream pet foods. If the Walmart brand of dog food could have even 5% cricket protein instead of meat, we'd be saving millions and millions of pounds of meat, hundreds of millions of gallons of water. It's all just about being able to grow the production volume to be able to meet those demands.For us, the path to doing that is not just building cricket farms ourselves but to be able to take the facility that we've designed and package that into a turnkey product that we could then license out to a production partner. Because we got a lot of inbound inquiry from folks that say, "Hey, I would love to start a cricket farm, but I don't really know how." There's great opportunity to leverage that and provide a ready-made solution where you can say, "Well, here's the setup and here's the training. We can provide the technical support." Then you can grow these crickets, and then we can help you process that into the protein powder that we can get out to the market."That's really the longer term growth strategy, is being able to engage with all these partners. Over the last several years, we've had hundreds and hundreds of people contact us, say, "I'm a dairy farmer, but I want to get into crickets." A lot of folks with agricultural backgrounds, maybe they grew up on a farm, but their parent's farm isn't quite big enough to support them coming back to work on the farm. They say, "Hey, maybe I could throw up an outbuilding and we could have a cricket farm there."There's a huge amount of opportunity for people that essentially have cricket production as their own business and be able to feed into the supply chain where we can have this huge impact offsetting meat. Fundamentally, what we are after is really converting, like I mentioned, this linear extractive food production system into a circular sustainable food production system. Right now, we're just so overextended on our demands, on the very limited resources that we have available in terms of water and soil and arable lands and even just nutrients available to grow crops.We're going to stop being able to produce food. When we talk to folks in the chicken industry or the beef industry, they're actually all very interested in the potential for the insect protein in the feed for their animals. Because all these animals are not just eating plant-based proteins. Almost all the animal feeds out there also have some amount of fishmeal in them, which supplements key amino acids and fats that you don't find produced in plants. Fishmeal production is a really shocking industry. We basically send out ships that scoop up indiscriminately, all the small fish. Particularly, they'll go scoop up whole schools of anchovetas and anchovies. Then they just grind that up into a powder and send it off into the animal feed formulations.Essentially, all that farmed salmon is basically eating wild fish that's been caught and ground up and pelletized and then fed back to that salmon. Something like 90% of fisheries are on the verge of collapse or have already collapsed. There's a huge amount of interest in introducing insect proteins into animal feeds. The FDA and AAFCO, which is the organization that controls what can go into animal feeds, have already approved soldier fly proteins, which is another insect that's being widely grown for use in salmon feeds. Now, the FDA has also just indicated that they think that should also be allowed in poultry feed. Poultry feed is one of the biggest consumers of fishmeal in the land-based agriculture.Lisa:Do you have a website that people can go to?Andrew:Our company is Tiny Farms. The website is just www.tiny-farms.com. Yeah. You can check out our basic offering. You can contact us through the contact form.Lisa:Are you selling tiny farm hats, like you have on? [crosstalk]Andrew:We've printed short-runs of shirts and had these hats made just for the team. There's enough interest that I think we'll get those listed up there soon. We just have to start thinking about the food system, in terms of a self-sustaining system and not like feel good sustainability. This has to be a system that can continue to produce food forever.Lisa:There are a lot of us living here, and we'll need every tool we can use if we want to keep enjoying it.Andrew:Yeah. Exactly.Lisa:Thank you, Andrew, for being on program.Andrew:Thank you. This was fun.Lisa:You've been listening to Method To The Madness, a biweekly public affairs show on KALX Berkeley, celebrating Bay Area innovators. You can find all of our podcasts on iTunes University. We'll be back again in two weeks. 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The Hermit's Lamp Podcast - A place for witches, hermits, mystics, healers, and seekers
In this episode T. Susan Chang plays host to interview me about my new deck from Llewellyn – The Orisha Tarot. We talk about my 18 year journey with the Lukumi tradition that brought me to this point. This episode is a deep dive into the how and why of this deck an dthe role the spirits have played in its creation too. You can see the deck and get it from my website here, Amazon, or at your local bookshop. Think about how much you've enjoyed the podcast and how many episodes you listened to, and consider if it is time to support the Patreon You can do so here. And you should go see all the good stuff Susan is up to here. If you want more of this in your life you can subscribe by RSS , iTunes, Stitcher, or email. Thanks for joining the conversation. Please share the podcast to help us grow and change the world. Andrew You can book time with me through my site here. Transcription SUSIE: Hello, everybody! You're hearing a different voice as the host of this week's Hermit's Lamp podcast. I'm Susie Chang, friend of Andrew, and Andrew has kindly invited me to come on the show in order to interview him about his new deck, the Orisha Tarot, since he obviously could not interview himself! [laughs] Normally, at the beginning of an interview, what I would do is introduce the guest, but since the guest is the host, I guess I'll just do a very cursory introduction of what I know about my friend, Andrew. As you know, he is the proprietor of The Hermit's Lamp, the store, which is a touchstone for all of us in the tarot community, and he is the voice behind The Hermit's Lamp podcast. He is an artist in his own right and a creator of beautiful works, decks, and he is also a priest in the Lucumí tradition, and we'll be talking about that some more. But the reason that we're here today is to talk about the Orisha Tarot, which is coming out from Llewellyn in September … What day is it? ANDREW: Basically, today, according to Amazon. SUSIE: For real! Fantastic! Yeah, this is very exciting. So, I understand decks are already shipping out, and I was also particularly interesting -- interested -- in doing this podcast because we're both Llewellyn authors. I've got a book coming out from Llewellyn on tarot correspondences just next month. So, shout out to Llewellyn for supporting the work of tarot lovers everywhere. ANDREW: Absolutely. SUSIE: Yeah! So the Orisha Tarot is officially out. Congratulations! ANDREW: Thank you! SUSIE: It's been many years in the making, hasn't it? ANDREW: Yeah, I mean it's … It's always one of those things. Where do you count that from? You know? SUSIE: [laughs] ANDREW: I signed my contract for it about two years ago, maybe a little bit less than that. So that's probably as good a time as any. But even at that point I had already made a dozen cards and had spent five or six years prior to that thinking about it and trying to figure out what I wanted to do and how I wanted to do it. So. You know? SUSIE: Right. And actually, I'd like to back up even further, to the beginning of your story in this tradition. And to find out a little bit. Because it's been about ten years, I think you said? Something like that? ANDREW: Ten years as a priest. SUSIE: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: As of August. It was 2000 when I started getting involved in this tradition. So it's been about 18 years that I've been involved. SUSIE: Wow. So that's … Really, it's been a long journey for you. And I was listening to your wonderful interview with our friends at the Tarot Visions podcast, and I think you mentioned that you came into it through kind of a circle of friends who were exploring different esoteric traditions, and I kind of wanted to know a little bit more about what drew you. You mentioned that you were, you know, a friend had brought in his own explorations of Lucumí, and I wanted to, first of all, sort of talk a tiny bit about the context of Lucumí, since not everyone will be familiar with it, and also, a little bit more about your attraction to it. Now, as I understand it, Lucumí is a Cuban offshoot of the greater Yoruba African traditional religion, yeah? ANDREW: So, the story you get will depend a lot on who you talk to. Like many things. Right? SUSIE: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: You know, so, at the time of the Atlantic slave trade, Yoruban wasn't really cohesive at all. That whole area was a bunch of city states and so on, right? SUSIE: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: So, this idea that there was sort of one cohesive African traditional religion, or ATR, which these things spread from, isn't really historically accurate. You know? SUSIE: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: If you came from, you know, the city of Ife, then, you know, your tradition slants in one direction, certain deities are, you know, held above others; if you come from Oyo, then, you know, that's going to have a different set of traditions and sort of a different kind of more primary veneration and tilting towards certain deities over others. If you're down sort of in the coastal parts of kind of western Africa, towards the south end of that sort of prominence, the way in which some of the Orisha are going to manifest, especially the water Orisha, are different than if you're sort of further north, or inland, or in other places. You know, and so … SUSIE: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: It's important to understand that these sort of … All of these Orisha traditions and their diasporic manifestations, you know, as they found themselves in different countries, throughout the Caribbean and North and South America, they all varied depending on which groups of people were enslaved and brought over, which traditions survived, what happened in relationship to the indigenous culture that was present, you know, in Cuba indigenous culture was sort of pretty much wiped out, so there wasn't much inclusion of that into the traditions, whereas in other parts, you know, especially in South America, you know, some of those cultures continue to sort of live alongside and there's sort of more sharing of ideas. SUSIE: Yeah, it seems like in many of the diasporic manifestations, you see fates that have been heavily syncretized with whatever was going on locally. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I think that, you know, the question of syncretization is always an interesting one, you know? SUSIE: Yeah. ANDREW: The story that some people like to say is that they were syncretized in order to conceal them and to prevent … SUSIE: Right. ANDREW: And to protect them and to allow them to practice covertly, you know … SUSIE: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: And I'm sure that that's true in some ways. But also, you know, there's a lot of … In nonwestern approaches to magic and to spirituality, there's often a real sense of "hey, what's that guy good for? What's that spirit …?" SUSIE: Right. ANDREW: "What's that one going to do for me?" Whereas this sort of very practical notion of, you know, you come across somebody and you're like, "well, I read about this guy, what's that saint good for?" SUSIE: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: And there's the syncretization that happens, for sure, but there's also the notion of like, having more spiritual people in your corner is not a bad idea at all. Right? SUSIE: Exactly, exactly. ANDREW: And so, so I think the history is interesting to try and unravel, but I think that we'll never really fully understand exactly what was going on with everybody involved. SUSIE: Exactly. And I think that, you know, people of faith kind of make faith work however they can, right? You know, it's sort of like you'll always have schools of thoughts that try to keep, you know, try to distinguish and separate and go towards a purist mentality in terms of practicing faith, and then there are others who'll say, well, we work with what we've got, you know? ANDREW: Exactly. SUSIE: Yeah. ANDREW: So, and so, to kind of answer your kind of like, about my lineage … My lineage, as far back as we know it, originates with this woman Monserrate, you know, she's the farthest back that we can trace that, and my lineage originates in Cuba and through those sort of Cuban traditions. So. Variations of the diasporic traditions, for sure. SUSIE: Right, right. So we're talking about … We're specifically talking about a tradition that came to Cuba through the slave trade. ANDREW: Exactly, yeah. SUSIE: And do … You actually have some reference to that in, I think, your Ten of Swords card. ANDREW: Absolutely. SUSIE: Which seems really appropriate, yeah. So, I wanted to know a little bit more about your personal journey, in terms of whether you yourself grew up in any kind of faith community, or whether you were … you know, did you have to rebel against one? did you long to belong to a faith community? What was that like for you and what was discovering this community like for you? ANDREW: So, I think that one of the best things that my parents did was not raise me with any traditions at all. SUSIE: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: My parents weren't particularly religious, you know ... SUSIE: So what did you rebel against? [laughs] ANDREW: I didn't rebel against any- I mean I rebelled against everything. But we'll get to that. But what that meant was, you know, when I said to my mom, I want to go to the psychic fair and find some books on magic, when I was 12, my mom was like, okay. You know, when I like, picked out Alistair Crowley, she was like, sure, go ahead. SUSIE: Yeah. ANDREW: So, that meant that I like had a lot of space to really get involved and think about other things, you know? SUSIE: Yeah. ANDREW: You know, other than sort of when my parents split up and we started going to Anglican church, mostly I think because my mom wanted some community … SUSIE: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: I didn't really have a lot of connection or experience with any kind of organized religion. But what happened was, when I was 14, I almost died in a car accident. SUSIE: Right. ANDREW: And after that I wanted to understand everything. And so, I didn't rebel against anything as such, but what I really wanted to know was, like, what does this all mean? Right? Like all of it. You know. At that point I'd already been reading tarot for a year … SUSIE: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: I'd already been studying Crowley for a couple of years. It was already really invested in sort of a magical world view. And at that point then I just started reading everything I could get my hands on, right? So I'm like in grade 9 and 10, and reading Nietzsche and … SUSIE: Sure. ANDREW: Picking out, you know, people who can talk about these things. The youth group at the church was run by an ex-Jesuit, and so I would like corner him and be like "hey, tell me about this, tell me about that, tell me about this," and for the most part, people would indulge me and have conversations with me about it, you know? SUSIE: Mm-hmm. Was there another organized religion that you were drawn to? Before Lucumí? ANDREW: No. I mean, Crowley's work. You know? SUSIE: Yes. ANDREW: For me it was basically all about Crowley's work. SUSIE: And you were in the OTO? ANDREW: Yeah. When I was in my ... It wasn't until much later though. It wasn't until I was, you know, well into my 20s that I actually even considered … I was like, oh, maybe the OTO exists here in Toronto. Maybe I could find people. Mostly I just practiced independently and pursued and tried to talk to people. SUSIE: Right. ANDREW: Yeah. And then basically I left the OTO and the Armed Solace, which was another initiatory group, and moved into practicing Lucumí, you know? That was my journey. SUSIE: Yeah, yeah. And it's been, as you said, like an 18-year journey at this point. And, so that's something I wanted to sort of ask you about, in terms of doing the artwork, telling the stories, introducing the wider world to this tradition. You know, often when we are talking about faiths we didn't grow up in, you know, there's this question of whether it's your story to tell, or whether, you know, at what point do you become a representative? And so that's a question I have for you, at what point did you feel that you were invested enough or, you know, that you had a strong enough sense of belonging to be able to bring this to other people? ANDREW: Sure. So, there's a whole bunch of pieces to that answer. SUSIE: Mm-hmm. It's a complex one. [laughing] ANDREW: Yeah! We'll start with this. When you … When you become a priest, right? You become initiated into a lineage, right? So, you know, and when we talk about ancestors, the word we use most of the time is Egun. Right? We mean Egun to mean, ancestors by blood, and ancestors by initiation, right? SUSIE: Right. ANDREW: And so, you know, my Egun are those priests of the Orishas, going back to Montserrate and beyond, you know, and they're lost to history beyond that. And so, part of the conversation for me is, this is my lineage, this is my, these are my ancestors at this point, right? And this is something that we take pretty seriously within the tradition, right? Initiation and lineage are really significant. SUSIE: Right. ANDREW: And so that's part of the thing. Part of it is, although my parents did not practice this tradition, I am initiated into this lineage in a traditional way. SUSIE: So, so there's a difference here between blood lineage and spiritual lineage. ANDREW: But the word does not differentiate. We don't differentiate, right? So, if you … We could … You could get a reading, and, your traditional reading, and your reading could come in a good way or a bad way, depending on what's going on with you, from the Egun, right? SUSIE: Right, right. ANDREW: And when we're divining, if it's possible, we want to mark who that is, and we would ask, ancestors from the lineage, and ancestors from the blood line, and depending on what the reading came out as, it would guide us. And we could narrow it down, and be like, "Oh, yeah, the ancestors are upset with you, and in this case it's someone from your blood family, or in some other case it's somebody from your initiatory lineage," but we don't differentiate, the word means the same, right? SUSIE: Yes, I seem to remember reading something this past week about the idea that your, your, they're sort of one set, one bloodline sort of over one shoulder and spiritual guidance over the other, but they sort of combine and you need both. And I guess, you know, speaking about the outlook and cosmology of the faith, would it fair to say that, you come into this religion, but the religion itself proceeds from the assumption that everybody, no matter where you come from, no matter who your parents, or grandparents etc. were, has a relationship, or a potential relationship they haven't yet realized, with the Orisha? ANDREW: I don't think that that's actually true. SUSIE: Okay. So that's what I'm trying to get to the bottom of here. ANDREW: Okay. Before we come to Earth, we choose our destiny. We choose our Ori, right? Ori is sort of, not easily translated into one thing, but if you think of it as sort of your guardian angel, your destiny, and your higher self, all as one entity, that's probably a reasonable set of points to make sense of it, for people who have those ideas already. SUSIE: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: And when you choose your destiny, before you come to Earth, it's sealed, right? SUSIE: Right. ANDREW: And so, we don't know what all it entails before we come, but if it's part of your destiny to get initiated into the Orisha tradition then opportunities will present themselves for that. It's not to say that you couldn't force them otherwise, but those wouldn't be in alignment with your destiny. And really, when we're talking about sort of initiation, and sort of connection, and those kinds of things, they really all ought to be dictated by either divination, or dictated by Orisha in possession of people, right? SUSIE: Yes. ANDREW: It's not really, you know. There are many people who will come, people will come and Orishas are like, "yeah, okay, we'll help you," right? SUSIE: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: Or the people will come, and they'll be like, "no, you should go do something else," right? SUSIE: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: Either direction, go over that way, go look at these people, you know, like go look at these other traditions. It's definitely not for … It's not meant for everybody, per se, and it's not closed in any, you know, in any particular way, although certain houses and certain, you know, lineages, might be more closed to outsiders than others, based on a whole bunch of different factors, but … SUSIE: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: It's much more so that, you know, if it's part of your destiny the opportunity will arise, if it's not, then, you know, you might run into it, but they might say, no, you're good, go to the other side. SUSIE: Right. Well, this is interesting to me because I've noticed that there seem to be a lot of people who are clearly didn't grow up within the culture who have become drawn to this religion or some form of it, some form of the faith, and, you know, taken it on. And, it seems as though there is, you know, a certain openness to those who commit themselves, whether or not they grew up or had family or, you know, understood the culture. Right? ANDREW: Yeah, I mean I think that, I think that there are opportunities definitely for people to engage and connect with these traditions. And there are definitely practitioners around who are, you know, open to people who didn't grow up in these traditions and so on, for sure, right. SUSIE: Right, right. ANDREW: That's definitely a thing, and you know, I mean that, I think one of the things I see that's going on is that, certain people seem like they're looking for tradition, right? They're looking for … They're kind of doing something that doesn't have a long living history, and they're kind of looking backwards for, or looking around for those things that do, you know? SUSIE: Yeah. ANDREW: I think that's part of why the Tarot de Marseilles is sort of resurfacing. SUSIE: Right, right. ANDREW: You know, it's, I think that it's why the Orisha traditions are shifting and coming forward more. You know? SUSIE: Right. That's one of the things that … I guess that's why I was asking you so much about your own background in terms of, you know, working independently versus belonging, right? Because I think that that's something that a lot of us struggle with, especially those of us who grew up, you know, in an era where religious community isn't something that one takes for granted. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. SUSIE: Yeah. So anyway, I think that we should probably turn a little bit to the work itself. ANDREW: Well, let me finish answering … Cause we started with this question of me and sort of, you know, doing this deck, right? SUSIE: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: You know, sort of … And we kind of started talking about the ancestral piece and drifted away, and there are a couple of other things that I want to sort of … SUSIE: Okay, good. ANDREW: So I mean, one of the things, like I did a bunch of things around creating and starting this process, and getting permission before I started this process, and certainly one of them was sitting with my elders and talking about what I wanted to do, and, you know, getting advice from them. SUSIE: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: And certainly part of it was asking the Orishas themselves, asking Elegua for, you know, his blessing to proceed with this project. SUSIE: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: And also, you know, sort of sitting down with people and sort of showing my art with, you know, with different people and people of color and so on to kind of consult with my choices around representations and so on, so. SUSIE: Absolutely, absolutely. ANDREW: I really wanted to, you know, you can never please anybody, and I'm sure there'll be some people who'll be upset by the deck, and well, you know, that's life. Right? But … SUSIE: Right. But it sounds as though you have a lot of support. At least within the community you have access to for the work that you undertook. ANDREW: Exactly. SUSIE: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Cool. So I wanted to talk a little bit about making a tarot deck, approaching a tarot deck, coming out of the various traditions you come out of. So I know that you started out with Crowley and the Thoth deck -- or, I know you pronounce it "Toth," [laughing] and also that your primary commitment as a reader for quite a while has been the Marseilles deck. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. SUSIE: So, how … Why did it seem like a natural choice to you to translate or to represent what you know from Orisha as a tarot deck? You know, I think a lot of people would say, well, you know, since there isn't an obvious 78 card structure, you know, number of deities, all the sort of correspondences that tend to underlie at least the Golden Dawn-derived decks, or the general tradition of tarot reaching back to the 15th century, you know, why, why do a tarot deck and not something more free form like an oracle deck? ANDREW: Well, because, one of the reasons why I made this deck was because I wanted to create a bridge between the people who have traditional experience with the Orishas, and people who have experience with the traditional tarot structure. SUSIE: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: And I wanted to use that … those two pieces as a way of creating a bridge so that people could sort of have more understanding of each other. And of what's going on, right? SUSIE: Yeah, yeah. ANDREW: And so, I really, you know, I mean, I've got nothing against oracle decks, I mean I released one earlier in the year. But, in trying to think about something as large and expansive as the Orisha traditions, it really … Having a clear structure, like the tarot structure, allowed me to frame and set the conversation in a way that allowed me to finish it [laughing] cause otherwise … SUSIE: [laughing] Right, it's ... otherwise, how do you know when it's done? [laughing] ANDREW: Yeah, right? I mean, we divine with, you know, upwards of 256 different signs. SUSIE: Right. ANDREW: Each of those signs is as complicated or as a trump card, or as sophisticated as a trump card … SUSIE: Right. ANDREW: and then there's, you know, depending on who you ask, you know, a bunch of primary Orishas and maybe, you know, like even hundreds if you start getting into different paths and roads, it can expand infinitely in every direction, right? So. SUSIE: Mm-hmm. I'm curious in whether there's much crossover between the two communities, that you've noticed. I mean tarot, and Orisha. ANDREW: Sure, lots of people. I know lots of people who are initiated. You know, I mean, that sort of … syncretic piece, kind of "what can I do with this?", you know, that continues to be a problem with a lot of Orisha practitioners' lives, right? SUSIE: Yeah. ANDREW: It's more purely, just the Lucumí Orisha stuff. Many people practice some combination of, you know, Paulo Moyumbe, and espiritismo, and card reading, and, you know, other things, depending on who they are and what they feel is important and what they have access to. So there's not like … There's not a lot of hard rules … SUSIE: Yeah. ANDREW: About the Orisha tradition. Certainly not the tradition I practice. SUSIE: Right. ANDREW: I mean, definitely don't mix them in one ceremony. SUSIE: But it's okay if you practice them separately. ANDREW: If you go to church on Sunday, and then you tend your ancestral Boveda, and then you have some Orisha, and you go between them, depending on what you feel and need, it depends on where you go, it's a really common experience for a lot of people. So. SUSIE: Yeah, yeah, I'm glad you addressed that, cause that's something I was really curious about. You know, you don't dilute your practice by sort of mixing a bit of everything. On the other hand, you're one person, and, you know, if you're drawn to different practices, then perhaps you're drawn to different practices for different needs. ANDREW: Sure. And if the Orisha don't want you doing that, they'll tell you! For sure. SUSIE: [laughing] Right. ANDREW: They'll be like, "stop it!" SUSIE: That's not cool. Yeah. ANDREW: Yeah. SUSIE: So, a little bit about what people can expect when they're approaching the cards. Now, it's not like there's a particular Orisha per card. There's Orisha in some representations of some cards, some cards have concepts from Lucumí, some cards have one of the Odu on them, so, sort of like, how did you approach how you wanted to impart all of this information structurally into the deck? ANDREW: Mm-hmm. So, I really, I wanted to try and avoid what I had seen done in other decks in the past. SUSIE: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: Not because it's wrong per se, but because it doesn't give the conversation enough meat. Right? You know a lot of decks would say, well, Shango is the king, and therefore, he's the emperor, and so when I draw the Emperor I'm going to draw Shango. SUSIE: Right. ANDREW: And that's fair, you know, I mean Shango is the emperor, he's the king of the Orishas. SUSIE: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: But, but there's a lot more to it than that. What does that mean? In what way does kingship or power in that way show up in a variety of different contexts, and what are the different conversations that we could have, right? SUSIE: Exactly. ANDREW: And so, when I was sort of working with the trump cards, I wanted to embody the ideas that I see being behind, you know, behind the cards themselves: spiritual authority, earthly authority, fortune and chance, you know, like different things. I wanted to sort of embody those bigger ideas and kind of avoid kind of just a straight, this symbol = this symbol here … SUSIE: Yeah, I call that the matchy match. [laughing] ANDREW: Right? Exactly. SUSIE: Yeah, yeah, yeah. ANDREW: When I was looking at the number cards, which for me often represent sort of more the what and the how of life, right? I wanted to kind of focus more on stories, and those things that tend to be more about particular patakis, or stories or ideas from the lives of the Orishas and the lives of their practitioners and where that kind of overlaps and integrates with those numbered cards. And then when I got to the court cards, I wanted to, I wanted to really kind of explore the way the court cards can be sort of seen to line up with roles people might play in the community. Right? SUSIE: Right. ANDREW: So, when we're looking at those, we see … One of them, the Aleyo, the new person who's just coming to this tradition, who's ready to learn, and they're making an offering to, you know, the butcher, who is a very skilled and important part of the ceremonies in the community, to the elders who run the ceremonies, and the singers and the drummers and the artists and all of those things, so I kind of went through and sifted those ideas into where I felt they aligned with the court cards best. SUSIE: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: So, the court cards then become really positions or roles one might find oneselves in, in religion, and over time, with the traditional idea of the court cards, over time we might [00:29:27]. Over time we might be, you know, we might play this role in this community and that role in another community. And so on. So. SUSIE: Right, right. And I think hat underscores what I think sometimes we forget about court cards, which is that we can be any of them, and we are any and all of them at different times. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. SUSIE: So, about that … A word you brought up just before, which I think is pretty important for us to discuss, the word Pataki, the story. So can you tell us a little bit about how that is contextualized within the faith and also, we should mention, that that is the name of the book that goes with the deck, Patakis of the Orisha Tarot. Yeah. ANDREW: So, patakis are the stories of the Orishas and their practitioners that are meant to be instructive, right? SUSIE: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: The word parable, you know, is a way to maybe give a different word for it in English. SUSIE: Right. ANDREW: And, you know, especially when we're divining, right, we'll often give a proverb, and we'll often, you know, tell a story about the Orishas. And, this is part of this oral tradition of it, that we are expressing these ideas in ways that allow us to tell the person things, in ways that are easier to hold onto, easier to integrate, that give us some meat, rather than just saying, "hey, don't do this thing," which we might also say … SUSIE: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: We might also tell the story of when one of the Orishas did that thing and what happened to them. SUSIE: Yes. ANDREW: "Oh yeah yeah, okay I see that. I shouldn't do that thing, cause this is gonna happen," right? There'll be a problem. SUSIE: There's something about these stories that's so human and relatable, right? You know? I mean is it not the case that the Orisha themselves were at one time human or before they became more than human? ANDREW: Well, that's a … That's a contested … Somewhat contested point of view. Many Orisha are what's known as urumole. They came from heaven. Right? They originated purely from spirit. SUSIE: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: There are Orishas who are considered deified ancestors, Shango being one of them, you know, Oduduwa being another one. You know, there are these spirits, these people who led great lives and led their communities and so on, and became, you know, deified after their death. The question that comes up in those conversations, then, also is were those lives that Orisha descending and living on Earth for a period of time? SUSIE: Yes, right. Yeah. ANDREW: So, I mean, I think that it … I think that there's no clear answers to that. But in general, the majority of the Orishas did not start as human, but originated as part of the unfolding of creation, and then came to sort of live these lives and, you know, have these stories and experiences that we now understand. And also, when we're talking about some of these stories, I think that we also need to understand that some of them, and there's no easy historical way to say which ones are not, but a good chunk of them were probably stories about priests of those spirits. SUSIE: I see. ANDREW: Made these mistakes in their lives. It's like, "Oh yeah, you're Bill, the priest of Obatala who lived down the road …" SUSIE: [laughing] ANDREW: "Remember when you did this?" "Yeah, I remember," right? SUSIE: [laughing] Right, right. ANDREW: And those stories become, you know, part of the myth, right? Part of the lexicon of these traditions. SUSIE: Yes. I guess what makes me wonder, you know, what their relationship with mortality and humanity is, is because these stories, the emotions and the sort of currents that they represent are things that anyone can relate to. You know, there's jealousy, there's anger, there's, you know, there's infidelity, there's theft, there are things that you don't sort of in the same way that in the Greek mythology you see people, you see deities acting badly, right? Or in ways that show that they can make mistakes too. ANDREW: Definitely. One of my elders likes to say, you know, "They made those mistakes, you don't need to, okay?" SUSIE: [laughing] ANDREW: Right? But, you know. We're all human. We're gonna learn or we're not gonna learn. But we'll learn one way or another. Right? SUSIE: Right, right. So, a little bit more about deck structure. So, first of all, I noticed immediately that there were some sorts of ways in which your experience with tarot informed the deck. First of all, there's a little bit of a thought sensibility, in that your Strength and Justice are ordered in the way that the Thoth deck and the Marseilles deck do, rather than the Rider-Waite-Smith. I noticed that you have ordered it wands, cups, swords, disks, fire, water, air earth, which is a very hermetic thing. And the very fact that you call them disks also comes out of the Thoth tradition. But, I also wanted to know a little bit, for example, of ... I can sort of understand where the structure for the majors comes from, but what I wanted to know a little bit more is about the pips. Because your primary reading background comes from, as far as assigning meaning to the pips, I guess would be based in Thoth originally? I wondered if there was sort of more relationship …. Would someone who comes from a Rider-Waite-Smith tradition instantly recognize, or from a Golden Dawn tradition, instantly recognize the concepts in each of these minor cards? ANDREW: Well, I mean I think so. [laughing] SUSIE: [laughing] I can tell you that I certainly did. ANDREW: I mean, here's my hope about this deck. You know? SUSIE: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: I mean, so, obviously, I started with the Thoth deck, and I read with that deck for many years, exclusively. But I also read a ton of books on tarot, right, during that time. And had a lot of conversations, especially once I started branching out in the communities more, and you know, I mean, I've read lots of books on the Waite-Smith tradition, and, you know, all of that sort of and a bunch of that older stuff, you know? SUSIE: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: Hermetic or otherwise. So when I was, when I was creating this deck, there are … People who are reading the book, you'll come to some spots, you'll hit a few cards where it's like, you know, in the Marseilles tradition, people often think of this card this way, and I'll give a little bit of context, and then when you go and read it, it'll make a ton of sense. SUSIE: Yeah. ANDREW: And, that's really mostly because I could have, you know, I could have written ten times as much about these cards as I did. But Llewellyn said, you can only make the book [cross-laughter [00:37:02] SUSIE: Right, right. ANDREW: And, and I really endeavored to sort of kind of hold what I see as kind of the middle of the road on these meanings, right? I mean I didn't … the numbering is the numbering, and to me ultimately the numbering … I mean, this might be blasphemy from a hermetic point of view, but to me the numbering of the trump cards is really largely irrelevant. SUSIE: I think it's arbitrary, yeah. ANDREW: It's a historical precedent that's [inaudible at [00:37:30]. SUSIE: Although, although, Andrew, I think it's important that you made Elegua the Fool. I think, you know. ANDREW: For sure! SUSIE: Yeah. As the Orisha who comes first. ANDREW: For sure, yeah, yeah. But, but, you know, choosing Justice to be this number or that number, I'm like, eh. I almost never read the numbers when I read cards, because I just see the cards, right? SUSIE: Right, right. ANDREW: So, you know, this deck is really meant to be, you know, a kind of relatively even representation of tarot as it exists today, right? SUSIE: Yeah, yeah. ANDREW: And so, there's not … none of it's slanted too much one way or the another. There's no like "Well, you need to know that Crowley called this card the Aeon means, you know the goddess Nuit means this... SUSIE: Right. ANDREW: It's just not like that at all, right? SUSIE: Yeah, I mean, my sensation as I was getting to know the deck was really that it was about the stories, and which story fit which card best. ANDREW: Yeah. It's one of the things that I actually really … I wouldn't have guessed that I would have felt this was so important, but the feedback that I've gotten from the people who've gotten their books already, or gotten their copies already, who I shared advance copies with and stuff, is … including some non-tarot people who just are reading it because they really like me. SUSIE: [laughing] ANDREW: The feedback I keep getting is that the material is really accessible. And to me, that's like a really important thing. You know? I didn't want to make this difficult, I avoided using as much jargon, or like, you know, Lucumí words, as much as possible. I really, you know, I didn't get into hermetic philosophy particularly anywhere. You know there are all these branches and wings of my own personal experiences and practice, that I just brought them all down to the dining hall, I was like, "All right! Let's all have lunch to talk about stuff in a general way." SUSIE: [laughing] ANDREW: You know, it's hard to make that happen, so. SUSIE: Right. Well I think that, you know, I think it's really important for anyone coming to this deck to get to know the book, to read the book, really read the book, because it's, you know, it's 350 pages, it's real, it's got every single page not only has a story that's associated with the card, but also sort of breaks down the symbols that you included in the card, what its divinatory meaning might be, and sort of what the advice might be that goes with it. And I found that incredibly helpful in terms of, like, you know, if I came across a card where my own sort of tarot background wasn't making it immediately obvious to me what you were trying to do, I could just go to the book and it was really clear, you know, like within a minute. So, I think that it's … This is one of those things where … And I generally am not a person who believes that readers always have to go to the book, but I think it is really enriching and helpful to contextualize using what you wrote for this deck. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think unless somebody has a strong living practice with like, you know, with a traditional Orisha practice, yeah, it might be hard to start just by looking at it … SUSIE: Yeah, yeah. ANDREW: Most people who come from those traditions and read cards, as well, then maybe they don't need the book as much, you know. It's always interesting as I share the images on the, you know, on social media and stuff, I get, you know, priests jumping on the thing, and like, "how you choose to represent this here! it's perfect!" you know? SUSIE: [laughing] right. ANDREW: They just get it, right? Because they have both of those pieces. But it's so nice to see people be moved to see themselves and to see the tradition in this way, which is really gratifying. SUSIE: Mm-hmm, Mm-hmm. Before we move off structure and start talking a little bit more about the art and the specific cards, is there a sort of through line in each suit that we should be looking for? Something that's going on in wands only, something that's going on in cups or swords or disks? ANDREW: That was … That was a notion that I abandoned along the way. You know, in making a deck there always comes this point where the reality check steps in, and you're like, this is the limit of what I can do, you know. SUSIE: Yeah, yeah. ANDREW: And the sort of the idea that there was sort of one through line for each set of suits, I didn't really, I couldn't really find it, and you know there are a couple other ideas about levels of detail and symbolic representations that I just realized I'd be spending another five years like hand-drawing beaded things all day… SUSIE: [laughing] ANDREW: I'm like, that can't happen. SUSIE: Right, and if … I mean there are certainly color and number correspondences you could have worked with but, by forcing it into you know, existing tarot structure or hermetic structure I think you would have been doing something that was not necessarily conducive to the most rich environment of reading these cards. ANDREW: Exactly. SUSIE: You know what I mean? Yeah, although, I'm looking at … I've sorted it out, separated my deck out, Ace, Cups Swords, sorry, Wands, Cups, Swords, I'm looking at the Aces, and there's definitely, I get at least just from my background, I get an elemental feeling off of those cards, you know, a fire, water, air, earth feeling, and even if that's not something that you intended to do or carried throughout the deck, there's still something there, I think. ANDREW: For sure. I mean, in making this deck it's definitely … A lot of stuff just emerged in the creative process. And although I spent a lot of time thinking and writing and making notes about what went where and why and so on, when I sat down to make the cards, a lot of stuff just emerged as part of that process, you know, from the news, from the creativity, by chance or whatever, my own conscious formulated it, so there's a lot of stuff in there that happened as I was making the cards, it wasn't necessarily fully thought out … SUSIE: But which is just part of you, as a reader and a practitioner. ANDREW: Yeah. I mean, you spend 32 years working with the tarot, right? SUSIE: [laughing] ANDREW: It's a lot of ideas in the back of the brain there that are trying to come out in one way or another. SUSIE: Right. So, let's talk a little bit about the way the cards look for those people who haven't been lucky enough to pick up their decks yet. It's a gorgeous production, first of all, I think you, you know … the artwork's just stunning, and Llewellyn did a great job, I think, as well. First of all it's a borderless deck, which, thank you! [laughing] That's … ANDREW: Llewellyn let me do something that they had never done before, which was: all of the titles are handwritten. SUSIE: Yeah! Yeah! ANDREW: [crosstalking [00:44:55] to the cards. They're not obscured, they're easy enough to see when you're looking … SUSIE: You can find them. ANDREW: [crosstalking] Off of the bottom. They fit in more with the artwork, so it's easier to kind of just look at the artwork, or just look for the title when you need to. SUSIE: Right. ANDREW: That was something that we had a bunch of conversations with … SUSIE: I think it was a brilliant choice. Because, you know, it really foregrounds the story of the art. The art fills the frame, you know, everything about it allows you to immerse yourself in what's going on in that picture, and then secondarily you, you know, check out whatever title it was so you can sort of match it up with your own tarot knowledge. But I really appreciated that and I'm really glad that they made that decision and you, you know, suggested it. And also, the colors are so saturated and so bold. So the texture and look that you were going for was based on Gwash, right? ANDREW: Well, so, actually, what I was … So, I used to paint in Gwash a lot, before I had kids. But, you know, having kids, and having a space to set up art, you know, a small, urban space, isn't really that easy, right? SUSIE: Right. ANDREW: So certainly, that's a piece of my sensibility and my aesthetic, but part of what I was really looking for was, you know, starting, it's hard to date now, but starting quite a while ago, I went from being super structured and really trying to sort of make everything perfect, to really kind of moving to a more gestural and looser way of working. And so, you know, this kind of comes out of that, you know, sort of move away from you know, sort of pursuing absolute realism to pursuing something else. And then, the other piece of the aesthetic is, you know, I wanted to include different pieces of symbolism, but I didn't want to make it look like the Thoth deck where there are so many symbols that you don't really know what to look at sometimes. SUSIE: Yes, yes. ANDREW: And so, one of the things that I decided along the way was, you know, there's a lot of use of textiles, especially in Africa and west Africa, and the Orisha traditions, there's a lot of use of textiles in making thrones, in making ceremonial outfits, you know, in making panuelos, which are these elaborate cloths that we put on top of the Orisha sometimes. And so I wanted to kind of have a reference to that without trying to like emulate it or create like, recreate specific patterns, but use that visual idea to create a space for that symbolic language to hold, right? SUSIE: Yes. ANDREW: For the use of number, and through whatever other symbols got added to those designs and so on. So. SUSIE: Yeah, I really picked up on the fact that the design sensibility behind this had that sort of sense of, you know, scope and flow and bold lines that you get in textile. And, you know, that's not something you always see in tarot, and so it was really kind of a relief to the eye to sort of not get too, I don't know, bound up in the busy? ANDREW: mm-hmm. SUSIE: Yeah. I think what we see is sort of a looseness of the line, and … But at the same time a real exactness in terms of what symbols you wanted to portray and the way that you foregrounded them in each card. So, so, you did this actually on an iPad, right? ANDREW: I did, yeah. I did all of this digitally. I've been working pretty much exclusively digitally for the last five or six years now, I guess, ever since … SUSIE: Yeah. And does that have to do with being busy, being a parent, you know, just trying to live life in addition to being an artist? ANDREW: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean I don't have a studio space, you know, I don't have … Toronto is apparently one of the most expensive cities in the world to live in, thanks for that, whoever's responsible for that … SUSIE: [laughing] ANDREW: But space is certainly at a premium. And, you know, the only space where I maybe could do more studio type work is at the shop, and I already spend lots of time at the shop seeing clients and doing other stuff. I don't really want to be at work even if it's sort of as a creative outlet. And the iPad, you know, it's always with me, and when I was making this deck , I would just be like, oh, I've got an hour, time to work on one of the cards a bit. You know? SUSIE: Yeah. ANDREW: Here's some writing. Or whatever. It's just, it's always at hand, it's super portable, and especially, I got an iPad Pro, like one of the big ones, and an Apple pencil, which finally I was able to make happen through the process and you know, it's the best thing ever, it's just … SUSIE: Yeah, and if you get interrupted, you can just save it, and pick it up later. ANDREW: And I'm sure, like from a production point of view too, you can work in layers, like in Photoshop … SUSIE: Yeah. ANDREW: It's a real treat. So all the backgrounds are their own layers and all the symbols SUSIE: That's great, yeah. ANDREW: The line work symbols and stuff. So if I make a mistake, if I change my mind later … SUSIE: Right, right. Plus it gives you more freedom. I mean if you're doing a background you don't want to just stop to make room for the foreground, right? ANDREW: Right? Yeah. All also, I just sent all the Photoshops to Llewellyn, and they asked me if they could take some of them apart and use pieces for making the box and other stuff, which they did, which is fantastic. I'm so delighted with it. It just, it allows for a variety of options in a way that traditional mediums just don't, you know? SUSIE: Yeah, I was really excited to realize that you did this in a digital format like that just because I didn't know that you could create art like this in that way and have it come out looking so good. You know? ANDREW: Mm-hmm. SUSIE: And the other thing is that I just, I thought it was really funny, that just practically speaking, that it made so much sense for you. This is one of my hobby horses, the idea of just how difficult it is to be both a parent and a practitioner, you know, just to live your life and try to do this work is a constant struggle. Like, you know, you're in the middle of a banishing ritual and some kid is like, coming through saying, Mom, I missed the bus! ANDREW: Yeah! SUSIE: I mean, it's like it's every day, you know, trying to make that work is tricky for a lot of us. So I'm glad you found a way to make this happen. ANDREW: Me too. SUSIE: Okay, so I'd love to, if you feel like it, I'd love to talk a little bit about specific cards. If you could just give me a second, I have to plug … My laptop's going to run out of charge. I just have to plug it in real quick. ANDREW: Yeah. SUSIE: Just, be right there. [pause] Okay, we're good. And I can strip that out of the tape, later on, if you want. Okay. So, let's talk about a couple majors. I wanted to return to the Fool card, cause I think that's super important, where you have Elegua, who is, I guess, you know I don't want to make the mistake of trying to do too much equivalency here, but he is the one who makes communication possible as I understand it. ANDREW: Yeah. Elegua is the Orisha we speak to first in every ceremony, because he opens and closes the ways, and Elegua is all of the communication everywhere, on every single level, right. If we think about the communication between every cell in your body is that communication between the parts of the universe, you know, nothing exists or could happen without Elegua being there to facilitate that transfer of information from one place to another. SUSIE: Right. Right. And so, I think, you know, that's what makes it so important and so appropriate that he's the first card in the deck. You have to, even to open your mouth, to gather the air to speak, you have to be there, right, although he also has a presence in a number of other cards as well. And what people will see, when they look at it, is, I guess the, a common representation of Elegua is the kind of stone or concrete head with the cowrie shells embedded in it, right? ANDREW: Mm-hmm. Yeah, when people … A common solution, a relatively common solution to troubles in people's lives is to receive what's referred to as the Warriors … SUSIE: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: Which is Elegua, Ogun and Ochossi. It's an initiation that you don't have to be a priest to have. Anybody can receive this if it's marked or required. And they come into your life to help you fight your problems and overcome your obstacles and so on. And what there's actually, people are really accustomed to seeing these cement heads with the cowrie shells, but traditionally depending on your lineage, Elegua is … they have marked the path of Elegua, and there are many ways in which Elegua might be made. But I chose to make the one that people understand the most because I wanted it to be somewhat familiar to people, for sure. SUSIE: Right, and this is actually a symbol that ordinary people might have in their homes, right? ANDREW: Maybe. SUSIE: Yeah, yeah. Well, just real quick, after I got your deck, I had the craziest dream, where I dreamed that I got up and I went outside. And this was around midnight. And the UPS truck comes, [laughing] and gives me a package with my name on it, and I open it and I suddenly start to feel really strange like I'm high or I've taken something or ingested some kind of substance, like, just through opening the package. And then I was instantly transported into some kind of rite that was going on in my dining room. And Elegua was there. [laughing] And I thought this was, obviously this is not, I knew almost nothing before this week about this tradition, but, and I certainly have no way of knowing what significance that had or what, you know I certainly can't speak for the tradition in any way, but I thought it was, so interesting that, you know, my dream maker chose to take the delivery of your deck to me as this kind of mind-altering frame-shifting event. and then introduce, you know, this personification of communication, the opener of the ways, into the dream. ANDREW: Yup. Indeed. SUSIE: So I was very grateful for that experience. Okay. The only other major I really wanted to make sure we talked about was the Priestess card. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. SUSIE: Because it's not what people would ordinarily expect to see in a Priestess card, and I thought you could talk a little bit about what we're looking at and how it relates to the High Priestess we know and love. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. So, this is actually one of the cards that gave me the biggest trouble. SUSIE: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: I spent a lot of time working on this card, they're a bunch of drawings that got scrapped along the way, because I was just like, no, nope, no, no, no, that's not gonna cut it, that's too simple, that's too this, that's too whatever, right? SUSIE: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: You know, so what we see in the Priestess card, is we see a bunch of cowrie shells, right? SUSIE: Right. ANDREW: And the dillogun, or the cowrie shells, are you know one of the traditional tools of divination. For olocha, for priests in the way that I'm a priest, it's the way in which we speak with the Orishas. And, when we divine with the shells, we pray, and we invoke an opening with Elegua or whoever, for an Odu, for a sign, like a, the idea almost like a card to sort of … But those energies, those Odu, are the living unfolding of the universe, right? SUSIE: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: So, they represent all of the knowledge that was and is and all of the possible knowledge of the future, or the possible unfoldings of the future. And so, those energies that arrive when we do a reading, and come to play in the life of the person who gets the reading done … It's actually a serious ceremony to get a reading. SUSIE: Yeah. ANDREW: It alters the course of your life, right? And, you know when we think of the Priestess or the Papess, right? SUSIE: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: One of the things that we can talk about is knowledge, right? And it's deep metaphysical knowledge, right? SUSIE: Right. Which isn't readily accessible to you at a surface level. ANDREW: And, when we think about the Hierophant or the Pope as sort of the outer face of spirituality, the High Priestess is the inner face. She's the inner mystery of that, right? SUSIE: Right . ANDREW: And she is that knowledge which is hard to get to, that knowledge which is hard won, and that knowledge which is tied to a deep respect and a deep cosmic awareness of the nature of the universe, right? SUSIE: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: And so this Odu and the method of divination and the process of divination, to me mirrors that, right? SUSIE: Correct. ANDREW: And so the shells become the mouth of the Priestess, right? And if we look at it in a sort of Rider Waite symbol, right? Cascarilla and the Ota, the black stone? SUSIE: Yes! ANDREW: They mirror, we use those in the divination process, but they mirror those two columns … SUSIE: The boas and jacim, yeah. ANDREW: The positive and negative vibrations that are in that sort of duality. SUSIE: And those are a kind of … Are they a yes/no kind of stand-in? ANDREW: Yeah, we use them and other things to ask specific questions within a reading. We each have … There's about a half dozen Ibo that all have ritual significance, and we use them in different ways depending on the nature of the question we're asking. SUSIE: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: And then the other thing that's going on in this card is, usually people divine on a straw mat or a tray … SUSIE: Yeah. ANDREW: With cowrie shells. And some people use a wooden tray, maybe, but more often than not a straw mat. So, I wanted to create this idea of the straw mat, but then this idea that below it is this sort of cosmic opening, right? This connection to everything. SUSIE: Yeah. ANDREW: So, this is actually probably one of the most abstracted cards in the whole deck … SUSIE: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: In that it doesn't really show an Orisha or a thing that is sort of easily connectable, but I think that it really represents a sort of, that depth of knowledge and connection, direct connection to the voice of creation, that I associate with the High Priestess and that you know I associate with this divination process. SUSIE: Yes. Now the Odu themselves, they're transmitted orally, right? It's not something that you just pick up a book, and not anyone can do it. ANDREW: Yes. If you're not a priest, you cannot do cowrie shells, right? SUSIE: Got you. ANDREW: There's no … The best thing we could say is that you don't have the spiritual license, and my elders would be quite clear, you know, you can do anything you want with these shells, but they don't speak for the Orishas, therefore whatever you get is irrelevant. SUSIE: Right. ANDREW: You know … SUSIE: So it's not like what we think of … As tarot readers, we just pick up a deck and anyone can give it a go, this is something that you really need to go through initiation and be crowned as a priest to do. ANDREW: And spend a long time studying, right? You know you need to understand that there are 256, technically 257 signs. Each of those signs has a specific hierarchical order of Orishas that speak in them. Each of them has proverbs, songs, ceremonies, offerings, taboos, patakis, and then each of those signs can come in ire, like the sign of blessing, or asobo, the negative sign, and then there are many kinds of ire and osogbo, and if you start to multiply those out, you start to realize how many different permutations are possible in this system . SUSIE: Right. ANDREW: It takes a very long time and a lot of study to really come to understand what all those things mean. SUSIE: Yeah, and is that something that … So, this is something that you might do as a priest, correct? ANDREW: Yeah. SUSIE: And did you internalize all of those 256, 257 signs or was it, is it an ongoing study? How does that work for you? ANDREW: There's no end to the study. [laughing] SUSIE: Right. [laughing] ANDREW: Like hermeticism. When do you know enough? SUSIE: Oh, you never know enough. No no no … [laughing] Right. Okay. Well that's really helpful in terms of getting into the card. Are there any other majors that you'd kind of like to draw attention to before we look at minors? ANDREW: No, I'm happy to take your lead. SUSIE: Great. And honestly I would like to go through every single card in the deck, and I was having a lot of trouble sort of singling out a few that might be interesting to talk about, but given our time constraints, we'll just focus on some. I was looking at … the Nine of Wands, we're kind of going in order here, Nine of Wands [static at [01:04:39] see in this card, it's so interesting, because as I understand it, from your story, this is a representation of Yamaya, or one of her avatars I guess … ANDREW: Yeah. SUSIE: And there's a shipwreck, or an underwater ship, and [static] got a knife, and the knife has clearly just been used. So, maybe you can tell us a little bit about that. ANDREW: Yeah, I mean, one of the things that people … In making the deck, I wanted to disrupt people's preconceived notions, right? SUSIE: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: Of certain things. You know, like people, it's common for people to say, yeah yeah yeah, if you want love, go and talk to Ochún. Right? And Ochún will help you find love. SUSIE: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: He might, it's possible, but sometimes [inaudible] Ochún in what context and so on and so on, right? But you know, Ochún also doesn't really dig people complaining very much, it's not a thing that she's really that into … SUSIE: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: So, depending on the attitude that you're feeling about this, Ochún might also be irritated by you approaching her about it, it's very hard to say. SUSIE: Yeah. ANDREW: Which is why, you know, traditional practitioners divine, right? SUSIE: Right. ANDREW: Because the good answer is, in traditional divination, any Orisha that offers to help you with a problem can help you with that problem. SUSIE: Right. ANDREW: Whether we sort of generally associate that with being their purview or not, doesn't really matter, because if they say they're gonna help, they're gonna help, and you just say thank you, right? SUSIE: Right. ANDREW: And, so when we think about Yamaya, people think about Yamaya as a sort of loving mother energy, as a sort of always supportive energy, right? You know? SUSIE: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: We really sometimes people are sent to work with her when they need sort of grounding and stabilizing of emotions … SUSIE: Yeah. ANDREW: But, you know, Yamaya also has many roads and many avatars, right? So we're talking about, you know, Obu Okotu, it's not gentle, she's really a lot more like a shark, right? SUSIE: mm-hmm. And so, you know, the idea, the thing that people often say, is that when the ship wrecks, she grabs the sailors and takes them down to their fate, right? SUSIE: Yeah. ANDREW: And so there's this real sort of show of strength and power with her that isn't what we would normally associate with it, but which is 100 percent a part of her personality, or at least her personality on that path, right? SUSIE: Right. And I actually thought that this was … You know, the more I thought about it, the more it tied to my own understanding of this card. I mean when I think of the Nine of Wands, I think of someone who has been derived their strength from the vicissitudes of life, from the experiences of having suffered and having learned. ANDREW: Yeah. SUSIE: And I think that … I also think of it as a very lunar card, so that made it kind of feel familiar to me as well. But also, the fact that power has a personality and ruthlessness to it, as well. ANDREW: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean the Nine of Wands often turns up to speak of people who are strong clear incredibly competent, and sometimes hard for other people to relate to because of those things, right? SUSIE: Yeah. They've been through a lot. ANDREW: Yeah, for sure. SUSIE: Yeah. Okay. Fascinating. And plus, it's just beautiful. You see the body of Yamaya, but at first you may not even recognize that it's a human form because of the blue on blue, it's a very underwater card. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Looking at -- Oh, you know, one of my favorite cards of all is your Ten of Cups. And, which I did receive this week, once, and what I love about it is the story that goes along with it. So maybe you could talk about that a little bit. Sure. So when we were talking earlier in the podcast about picking your Ore or picking your destiny, right? This card represents that process, right? SUSIE: mm-hmm. ANDREW: You know, when everybody's hanging out in Orun, up on the other side, you know where we're all spirits, eventually, people for whatever reasons decide it's time to come back to earth. You know, decide it's time to come back down here, you know, to the marketplace, to hang out and party, to fulfill something they haven't fulfilled, whatever it may be. And when they make that decision, they go, as my elders described it, you go down the hall to this room where Adela, who is the Orisha who crafts these destinies, as a series of sealed gourds … SUSIE: And that's the picture that we see on the card, we see Ajala with the gourds. ANDREW: Yeah, I mean I think of it more as a person choosing their destiny. SUSIE: Oh, I see! ANDREW: But maybe. SUSIE: Could be. ANDREW: Adula, as far as I know, I've never come across any personifications of them … SUSIE: So this, so in your mind, this was the soul choosing which one. ANDREW: But, and we don't have a sort of super clear sense of karma or carry over from one life to another. It's not really … it's a mystery that we acknowledge that we don't fully understand, right? So you go into a room full of sealed gourds, and you pick something, and you really don't know, it could be horrible, right? It could be great, whatever. But if you've been good friends with Elegua, you know, and you've kind of kept good faith with him, maybe you reach out for something and he gives a little cough and says hey, not that one. SUSIE: [laughing] ANDREW: Don't take that one. Right? SUSIE: And I love this that you have this little sketch of Elegua under the table, you know, very quiet. Very subtle. Yeah. [laughing] Just giving you a hint. ANDREW: Yeah. So once you pick your destiny, you go back and see your creator, and then your soul goes into a body. SUSIE: And you can see in the background of the card, you can see the outline of the Earth, so this idea that you're outside the material realm at that moment, choosing your fate, yeah, mm-hmm. I think that's just really beautiful. And I think it's quite relatable to, you know, in a traditional sense to the Ten of Cups, which I at least think of as the end of a cycle, you know, I often think of it as the end of the complete sequence of minors in some ways, because if you go through correspondences it immediately precedes the Two of Wands. But there's also this feeling, you know when you see the family on the Rider-Waite-Smith Ten of Cups, of this sort of being, they're taking a bow. This destiny is finished! And we're looking towards the next. ANDREW: People … the belief is that people tend to reincarnate along family
The Hermit's Lamp Podcast - A place for witches, hermits, mystics, healers, and seekers
Daniel and Andrew talk about different ways of relating to the ancestors. Especially getting into how to help the ancestors evolve and make our lives better in the process. They also get into their relatinoships to the orisha and ways of thinking about practicing a tradition that you were not born into. Daniel can be found through his site here. His events are there too. Daniel's talk on practicing other peopels traditions is here. Andrew's upcoming Ancestral Magick Course can be found here. Think about how much you've enjoyed the podcast and how many episodes you listened to, and consider if it is time to support the Patreon You can do so here. If you want more of this in your life you can subscribe by RSS , iTunes, Stitcher, or email. Thanks for joining the conversation. Please share the podcast to help us grow and change the world. Andrew You can book time with Andrew through his site here. Transcription ANDREW: Welcome to the Hermit's Lamp podcast. I'm hanging out today with Daniel Foor, and Daniel is a Ifá priest and has done all sorts of wonderful work along the lines of ancestral healing. And Ancestral Medicine is the name of the book that he has out. And he and I have a lot of similarities in practices and the kinds of things we're interested in, so, you know, lots of people have been suggesting I have him on for a while, and, and well, today's the day! So, welcome, Daniel! Thanks for being here! DANIEL: Thanks so much. It's good to be here. ANDREW: There are people who might not know who you are. Who are you? What are you about? DANIEL: Yeah, well, I ... to locate myself a bit, I'm a 40-year-old, white, cis-gendered American living in western North Carolina. From Ohio, originally, but traveled a good amount, but live in the States, and have a PhD in psychology. I'm a licensed therapist, so I have a background in mental health. But mostly I'm a ritualist, and I've been training with different kinds of teachers and traditions for over 20 years now, and started out with more shamanic pagan background with magical things, and migrated into involvement with Islam, and Sufism, Buddhist practice, and then circled back to involvement with indigenous systems and earth-honoring traditions. And in the last decade have been immersed in west African Ifá practice, lineages in the Americas and also in west Africa, and so I'm an initiate of Ifa, Obatala, and Oshun, and Egungun priesthood, [inaudible], and in the lineage of Oluwo Falolu Adesanya Awoyade, Ode Remo, in Ogun State. So I've been four times to Nigeria, and that's one influence on my practice. But mostly I teach and guide non-dogmatic, inclusive, animist ancestor-focused ritual practice. The last two years or so I have shifted to training others, which has been really satisfying after years of doing more public-facing ritual, I'm now ... I do some of that but mostly I'm training other people in how to guide the work. And I have developed a specialization in repair work with blood lineage ancestors. But I also operate from a broader animist or earth-honoring framework that isn't limited to just that. So. And I'm a dad, I'm a, you know, married, and love the earth here, and live in the American South, which is kind of strange, but also okay. Yeah. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. That's awesome. DANIEL: Yeah. ANDREW: So, I mean, I guess, my first question for you is, when did you start feeling the ancestral stuff calling you? DANIEL: Well, my own lineages are German, English, Irish, early settler colonialist to North America, and so I didn't inherit any religious or spiritual framework or culture that was of value to me in any conscious way as a young person. And so, my first teachers in shamanic practice, Bekki and Crow with the Church of Earth Healing, in the late 90s, nudged me to get to know my ancestors ritually. And it was really impactful, actually. I was surprised by it. I'd never thought about them really before that. And I ended up assisting with an older ancestral guide or teacher, my father's father who had taken his own life, and just showing up for that work, which was powerful. And it was a catalyst for me to research, do a lot of depth genealogy research about my own family history, and that dovetailed in with my training as a therapist, so I was in a period of connecting a lot of dots and valuing my own heritage, and, in a grounding way ... Not in like some awkward, go white people way, but in a way that helped me to reclaim what is beautiful about European, you know, northern western European cultures, and ... including earlier pre-Roman, pre-Christian magics and lineages. And so, I ran with that ritually. And have guided 120 maybe, multi-day, ancestor healing intensives since 2005 in that work, so I spent about six or seven years getting grounded with all of it myself. Then started to help other people with it. And it just organically developed as a specialization. And I tend to be a little obsessive about a thing, when I'm into it. I'll do that like crazy, until it's ... yeah. ANDREW: Yeah, I think ... I mean, I think it's interesting how ... Cause I do a lot of ancestral work as well, you know ... DANIEL: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: I do ancestral divination work and, you know, ancestral sort of healing and lineage healing and so on. DANIEL: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: You know, I've been teaching it with my friend Carrie, we have this, we developed this system of people working with charm casting as a tool ... DANIEL: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: To get into that work. And, you know, we've been traveling around and teaching it everywhere. We were in China last year teaching it, and stuff like that, with people ... DANIEL: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: You know, I think that the thing that sort of stands out in your story, that I think stands out everywhere, is so often, like the last little bit, you know, the last few generations, it's kind of wonky, or like there's not a lot, there's not a lot of connection or living connection. Even, you know, it wasn't until last year that I found out that my grandmother read tea leaves when she was alive ... DANIEL: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: And she's been gone for like 12 years, and it just never came up before. She never talked about it, and my mom just never brought it up. Not for any particular reason but it just, it just was never a thing. Even though that's the same grandmother who bought me a tarot deck when I was like 13, long ago. DANIEL: Right. Of course she did. ANDREW: But I would have talked about it, right? But how ... Often when you kind of go back, you know, a few generations or somewhere a bit deeper, you know, there are these sort of more ... evolved isn't the word that I super like, but you know, like, more grounded, more helpful, you know, ancestors with a, with a sort of more capacity to be really guides and assist you in this process, right? DANIEL: Yeah, often. It ... Where those cut-offs happen varies so widely from one demographic or even one individual to another, and I know in a lot of my own lineages, it's been over 1,000 years since anyone during life had a culturally reinforced and supported framework for honoring the ancestors. And so the older ones, the ones even before that, are quite available. So it's not ... I mean I could ... reinforce some kind of orphan victim culturally-damaged white person narrative, but it's not that sexy or useful, and so at a certain point, you're just like, well, you pick up the pieces where they're at, and get the fire going again. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. DANIEL: And the older ancestors are happy to do that. And so even if someone comes from a really recently and before that culturally fragmented set of lineages, the ancestors are still available, the older ones, and the main repair orientation or practice that I encourage people to try on at first is to partner with those older ancestors and with them, assist any of the dead who are not yet well, any of the ones between those older ones and the present, who are not yet really well-seated, really vibrant. Help them to become well-seated ancestors. So the dead change. It's very important for us living folks to not fix them in some static condition. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. DANIEL: Just cause people were a pain in the ass or really, you know, culturally in the weeds during life doesn't mean they're doomed to that condition forever. They can really change and become, not only, like, not ghosty, but they can become dynamic, engaged, useful allies for cultural healing work in the present. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. DANIEL: So. ANDREW: Yeah, I think it's, you know, it's a misconception that a lot of people have that they automatically change on crossing over. DANIEL: Oh, sure, yeah, that's different. (laughing) ANDREW: And then the other side of that is, you know, they can change, but it might take a bunch of work, even if they did change, right? DANIEL: Yeah, totally. Yeah, both, both are true. Yeah. The idea that just dying makes you wise and loving and kind is really hazardous actually, as a world view. So. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. DANIEL: Cause it'll lead to a view of ... I've seen it at times in pagan circles as well, where it's “Oh, the ancestors, ancestors are good, let's invoke them all. Okay, here are all the names of my ancestors, and the pictures, and let me light a candle and strongly invoke all of them.” ANDREW: Yeah. DANIEL: Well, I hope your invocation doesn't work. ANDREW: Yeah. DANIEL: Because if it does, you're going to get a mixed bag! Cause your people are, you know, if they're well, awesome, but if they're not yet well, and your invocation works, then what you have is some not yet well ghosty energy in your space. ANDREW: For sure, right? And some of those spirits can be pretty tumultuous, you know, if they're ... DANIEL: Oh, no doubt. Yeah. ANDREW: [crosstalking 09:53] here. I have one grandfather that I continue to work with who, sort of, work on, let's put it [laughing]. DANIEL: Right. ANDREW: It's been a long time and they're still not ready to be, you know, front and center in anything, cause they just, so caught up in so much deep, deep trauma in their own life and in their generations before them, and, you know. DANIEL: One of, one of the things that I don't, I won't say it's unique to how I approach it, but it's emphasized in how I approach ancestor work, which isn't across the board, is I take a very lineage-based approach. Like I don't even really encourage, necessarily, relating with individual ancestors that much. ANDREW: Hmm. DANIEL: So in the case of someone, not to speak to your specific case necessarily, but let's say someone's grandmother is really quite entrenched in the unwell ghosty range of wellness. My strategy is to make sure that her mother and her mother and her mother and her mother and the lineage of women before them on back through time to the ancient weird witchy deity-like grandmothers, that that whole lineage is deeply well, and the repair happens from the older ones toward the present. And so, once you have the parent of the one who is quite troubled in a deeply well condition, and the whole lineage before them deeply well, as a group energy, asking them to intervene to address the rowdy ghosty grandparent tends to be ... It can ... Well, it can be more effective, simply because there's a re-anchoring of the rogue individuality in a bigger system, in a collective energy. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. DANIEL: And there's a respect for seniority or hierarchy, by having that person's elders be the ones to round them up. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. DANIEL: So, so that's. I shared that because in the West, generally, I find that people tend to conceive of ancestor reverence primarily as a relating of one individual to another individual, and, and some of the lineage or group level aspects of it can get lost, or they're not as emphasized. And so I find that's an important nuance to include, and then another is, and we've spoken to it, is just the way in which one's ancestors are not at all just the remembered dead, the ones, the recent ones, but they include ... The vast majority of them are living before remembered names. And that's helpful for people who are like, my family are abusive trolls. I'm like, okay, I believe you, but I think what you mean to say is all the generations you know about, which is probably not more than two or three. ANDREW: Yeah. DANIEL: And so, it's like, you're at the ocean, at a windy, cloudy day, and you're saying, “Oh, the ocean is tumultuous,” well, I believe it is, right there at the beach. But the ocean's a big place, yeah. So expanding our frame for who we mean when we say ancestor is gonna be helpful too. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. For sure. Yeah, and there's lots of times when, you know, we'll make offerings or do work with all of those ancestors, right? With the Egun, right, with everybody? Right? DANIEL: Yeah. ANDREW: You know? And in those ways and so on, right? Yeah, yeah, I mean it's interesting how ... It'd really be interesting to make sure that you're looking at those things. And some of my, some of my best ancestral allies have been gone, you know, three, four hundred years, right? DANIEL: For sure. ANDREW: Or longer. DANIEL: Yeah, totally, yeah. ANDREW: They arrive, and they're just like, “Yes! You're the beacon of light amongst all of these things, and let's radiate that out to everybody afterwards and anchor further and deeper,” right? DANIEL: Yeah. For sure. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. So, when you're doing work with people, are you mostly focused on ... you know, because a lot of people come to ancestor work because they want to get messages and receive stuff and do ... DANIEL: Right. ANDREW: ...[inaudible at 13:59] kind of stuff, right? I mean, I think that that can be fruitful, too, I enjoy that kind of work as well, but that's not really what we're talking about here either, right? I mean not explicitly, right? DANIEL: Yeah. If we say like, what's the point? It can ... There are a lot of different motivations that can drive someone to want to engage their ancestors. The most common one is, “I'm suffering, will this help?” ANDREW: Mm-hmm. DANIEL: That's legit. Sometimes it will help indirectly. Sometimes it will help directly because the source of the suffering is unmetabolized intergenerational trouble that's directly connected to ancestral interference, and so sometimes it, you know, it can help in different ways. Another motivator for the work is seeking life guidance, cause the ancestors have insight into our unique destiny, and can help us to move into closer alignment with that, you know, our unique instructions or soul level work in the world. As you know, in Yoruba culture, we sometimes talk about the world as the marketplace and Orun or the spirit world as home, and, and so if you forget your shopping list, working with the ancestors can be like, “Let us show you, you said this, this, this, and this,” and be like, “Oh, yeah, okay, thanks,” and so that's helpful to not waste our lives. And ancestors can be great for being a resource to parents or supporters in family, like they're especially good with all the family sphere, the domestic sphere, like being a responsible family human. And they're also good allies for cultural healing. A lot of the racism and colonialism and sexism and other kinds of cultural toxicity and garbage and bad capitalism that we're stewed in and trying to get out from underneath and help transform ... Those are ancestor, those are troubles created by the ancestors. Like, they're implicated in the trouble. And so they have, appropriately, a hand in resolving the trouble as well. And so they're great allies, by whatever form, activism, cultural change, all that. And so I really think that working closely with one's ancestors helps cultural change-makers to up their game, so to speak. So that's another motivation. And this is, I guess it's related to the one about destiny, but, inspired a bit from the Yoruba frameworks. The collective energy or wisdom of the ancestors is associated strongly with the Earth. Like the onile, the earth is like the calabash that holds the souls of the dead. And because the Earth is associated with accountability and, you know, moral authority, and is the witness through of all interactions, in that way also the ancestors carry that same quality of accountability. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. DANIEL: And I think whether or not people can consciously own it, some part of us craves accountability. Like we want to be seen and checked when needed. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. DANIEL: There's something really like ... our daughter almost made it to the top of the steps. Like, the door was open the other day. She's nine months old. But we caught her. It was good. It was way better than had we not held her in that moment. ANDREW: Right. DANIEL: And there's a way in which that kind of love and connectivity is like, “Oh, I'm not alone in the universe.” ANDREW: Mm-hmm. DANIEL: If I crawl to the top of the steps, someone will pick me up. So we want that, and the ancestors bring that, as well, when we live with them. ANDREW: I think it's a, I think it's a thing that, especially, you know, in my experience, people, in Western culture, struggle with too, right? This sort of willingness to acknowledge an authority or an awareness or a position that's sort of above them in a way that they can allow in to say, “You know what, actually, we do know what's better for you in this moment.” DANIEL: [laughing] Oh, yeah, it's- ANDREW: You what, my friends, you know, going down that road has nothing to do with your destiny, or what have you, right? DANIEL: Oh, yeah! [laughing] ANDREW: Here's your fault in this mess that you're trying to put on this other person, right? DANIEL: Oh, yeah, no, people, look, I'm a teacher, also, and so often it's great and fine, and sometimes people are idealizing in awkward ways, and like, oh, don't do that, don't do that. But, but just whatever, fine, it's fine, it tends to burn out and even out. And also sometimes people are really just not okay with anything resembling a power differential or a student teacher relationship. ANDREW: Right. DANIEL: And it's ... It's tiring a little, as a teacher. Because there is a difference between telling someone just what to do in an authoritative way, and also saying, like, “Well, do you want to learn a thing? Because I know this skill. Like, what do you ... do you want to tell me how it goes, cause ... ?” So, so yeah, it is ... I think it's a function of power so often being abused, that people understandably have mistrust. ANDREW: Yup! DANIEL: Yeah. So I have compassion for it, and also the piece around hierarchy and authority is really, is challenging. In the coming months, some dear friends are going to Nigeria to do initiations and I was talking to them last night, and I was like, in the nicest possible way, “Really, your main job as the initiate is to obey.” ANDREW: Yes. DANIEL: Just to, like, the ritual is done to you, nobody really cares what you think about it. And it's totally fine. ANDREW: Stand here, stand there, [crosstalking 19:59]. DANIEL: Right! Yeah, totally, sit down, drink it, sit, eat it, say thank you. Like ... ANDREW: Yeah. DANIEL: Yeah. Like you're the thing being consecrated. Your input is not needed. ANDREW: Yeah. DANIEL: Nothing personal. Next time you go back, then you can have an opinion. ANDREW: Yeah. And even then-- DANIEL: And even then, so you get one small vote. [laughing] Yeah. ANDREW: No, for sure. Yeah, let's see what people who ... I mean come for readings of all kinds, but you know, people who approach, you know, getting dillogun readings and stuff like that, and you know, the Orishas come through, and they're like, “Oh, you know what? Don't drink this year, don't, you know, whatever. Don't get tattooed. Don't, you know, no, no red beans for you.” They're like, “Well, what do you mean? I don't understand.” It's like, “Well...” [crosstalking 20:52] DANIEL: Obey! [laughing] ANDREW: What is the understanding? I mean, in a lot of that situation ... in some of those situations, the understanding is more obvious, right? DANIEL: Right. ANDREW: I had a conversation with a person who'd say, “Well, it seems like you kind of have this kind of challenge, and this is kind of the thing that might counter that,” and they're like, “Okay, yeah, maybe.” But other times it's just energetic or on other levels that it's just like, you know, it's kind of the ... It's an equivalent of saying “Hey, carry this citrine with you for the next year, it's going to help your energy,” but it's in a different structure that people don't relate to in the same way, right? DANIEL: For sure, yeah. ANDREW: And then they're like, “But, but, I don't want to be told what to do!” I'm like, “What else are you gonna do?” DANIEL: You just paid me to do that. ANDREW: Yeah, you asked, right? DANIEL: [laughing] ANDREW: You didn't have to, I wouldn't worry about it ... DANIEL: But some part of us does, some part of us really, I think wants to be told what to do. And that could go awry, and I'm not saying it's an entirely healthy impulse, but there's something about accountability and structure and community and limits, that's actually really intimate. ANDREW: Yeah. DANIEL: And if you can't hear and accept “no,” your “yes” is meaningless. ANDREW: Mm. DANIEL: And so there's something that's precious and sweet about protocol and tradition and about structure. ANDREW: I also think that a lot of people don't really ... Faith is a really complicated and difficult thing for a lot of people too, you know? DANIEL: Mm. ANDREW: And especially when entering a new tradition, you know? And, and I think that part of what we're talking about here is also a matter of faith, right? What is your faith in the ancestors or the Orisha or whatever, and how, how do you sustain that faith through being deeply challenged by all that stuff? DANIEL: Yeah, and for me, look, I was involved with different Orisha teachers in the States, American, for the most part, and ... it didn't work out that well, for the most part. I mean, complicated. But I ... I felt like there was a lot of restrictive and unhealthy and kind of confused energy around it. And I had an opportunity to go to Nigeria to reset some of the initiation-like things that had happened here, so I took a risk on it, and I'm like, “Well, this is either gonna be like the final straw, or some breakthrough,” like, “let's pray for the latter.” And I saw kind of a non-dogmatic group community like, in my Ifá initiation, there were men aged like 80 to five, holding space. Like, and 20, 30 people there. And people were teasing each other, playing, and having a good time. Like the people were well human beings, they seemed happy. And so that relaxed, teasing heart aware energy. I'm like, “Oh, good, this is what I was looking for.” And it helped ... For me, it helped me to trust, and just not fight the system. I'm like, “Just tell me what to do.” Just okay, “eat the pig dung,” okay, “Leave me a bite,” or whatever. Whatever it is. Just tell me what to do. So. ANDREW: Yeah. DANIEL: Yeah, it's great. ANDREW: I used to, you know, get some people who would bring their, you know, like, elderly, Cuban elders to the store. You know? And pick up stuff. DANIEL: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: You know, they're here in Toronto to do a thing, and they'd bring this person to the store, right? And you know my Spanish is not great [laughing] and their English was not great, and we'd like, know some like, Yoruban words in common or whatever. And you would see how sweet and genuine and nice they were. And then they'd notice that like, you know, I've got plants growing at the front of the store for working with religion, and they'd be like, “oh, alamo,” I'd be like, “yeah, yeah,” and we'd have this like sort of pidgin conversation and a bunch of other things, and mostly what it would be is our hearts being opened, all this sharing of our love of this religion and these spirits ... DANIEL: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: And the continuity of that. And it was such a beautiful and uplifting experience, even though there wasn't a lot of words that were associated with it. There was just so much communication happening at other levels, and you could, you know, I could feel my Shango just being happy about it, you know, be like whoever there, too, just being happy about it, and so on. You know? It's so uplifting in that way, right? But ... DANIEL: That's good. It's one of the things in, you know, we had mentioned in our previous chat about my talk on practicing the traditions of other people's ancestors. And-- ANDREW: Mm-hmm. DANIEL: I respect it a lot about the necessary and important dialogues around cultural appropriation, and especially, not only, but especially around respecting different Native North American or First Nations, as you say, traditions, and being mindful of what the conditions of involvement, if that's open, to non-Native people are, etc., and what's important to understand is those same parameters are not universal, and how cultures are shared and understood from one part of the world to another really vary. And Yoruba culture, for example, is generally an open system. Yoruba people in my experience, in Yorubaland, have never had anyone feel off about me being there and training in Orisha, except for the Christians, who were like, “Why don't you want Jesu?” I'm like, “We have Jesu where I'm at,” it's like, “It's fine, like, go Jesu!” but it's not why I'm here. And one of the things that is important though, is, it's family, like you're stepping into a family, a spiritual family. It's not like a “Hey bro, thanks for the culture, now I'm gonna go back and set up shop, I got what I need.” There's a ... And so when your teachers hit you up for money, it's family. That's what like, you can't be part of a family and have a bunch of stuff, and then other people don't have something, and you don't share it. ANDREW: Yeah. DANIEL: And so it's ... It's not like you're getting exploited. I mean, that also happens. But just the ethic of sharing and supporting one another. If people don't want that, then they might not want to get involved. because most indigenous systems that I know of that are open to people not of that blood ancestry hold things in a family-oriented way. There's intimacy with that, but there's also connectivity, reciprocity, accountability. Yeah. ANDREW: And, you know, so, you know, my immediate family where I was initiated lives in the Detroit area, and my, you know, my elders are in Miami, you know, and like, but like, especially when the Detroit folks are doing work, you know, especially bigger things like making priests, you know, I always show up, like, you know, it's like you, when they're doing the work, and you're like, “Oh, it's so inconvenient for me to take four or five days off and go down there and help out, right?” And it's like, yeah, it's inconvenient, and you know, it's time off work, and it's whatever, but it's what those people did for me, right? And it's what allows all of that to continue, and it's a chance to, you know, to also sustain those connections, and you know, sing together, and sit and joke together, and, you know, complain about handling the ... cleaning up after the animals together, and whatever, it's just part of it, right? Like ... DANIEL: Right. ANDREW: And in the absence of being willing to engage that community element of it, right? It's pretty ... If you don't have the community element in one way or another, especially in the Orisha tradition, you don't really have much of anything, you know? DANIEL: It's true, with the tradition, it in my experience is very communal, and there are a lot of ritual domains of activity you just can't pull off solo. ANDREW: Yeah. DANIEL: And it's just that, you know, it's a lot of hard work, it's heavy lifting. And for people who have worked with psychoactives, there's a certain kind of feeling among the group after a long, successful, like all night acid trip, when the sun's coming up, you're sort of like, “Oh, we've just gone through something together.” ANDREW: Mm-hmm. DANIEL: And, and, minus the LSD, there can be a sense after a multi-day ritual of a strong sense of magic and beauty and intimacy that's shared through all the effort and all the devotion ... ANDREW: Mm-hmm. DANIEL: That it takes to keep old lineages of practice alive. ANDREW: Yeah. DANIEL: Yeah. ANDREW: For sure. And I think it's, I mean, one of the other points that I think was super important ... It's been a while since I listened to that talk and we'll link to it in the show notes, cause it was a good talk. Folks should go back and listen to it. You know, is also the fact that these are living traditions, right? They have continuity. DANIEL: Yeah. ANDREW: And, you know, but there's a big difference between, hey, we're gonna call up some Greek deities and see what happens, you know, and, like, or you know, see what happens sounds dismissive, I don't mean it in that way. And you know, there's nobody, there's no continuity to ancient Greece, in that particular way, versus there are people who've been practicing these traditions from person to person to person, all the way through until now, and you can actually go and ask those people and they can answer you as to what's done and how it's done and why it's done. DANIEL: Yeah. No, it's true. People don't ... If they don't know something, would be in the habit of divining on it, but I wouldn't want someone to, like, not go to flight school and then divine on how to fly the plane. [crosstalking] Yeah. ANDREW: Yeah. There's that great proverb, which I'm sure you know, which is “Don't ask what you already know,” right? DANIEL: Right. ANDREW: And I think that there's a sort of choleric glory to that which is, you know, there are things you just shouldn't ask, cause you should already know them, right? DANIEL: Right. ANDREW: You don't need to ask if we do this thing because we know we don't. You know? DANIEL: Yeah. ANDREW: We know that Oshun won't take this as an offering. We know that we don't do this kind of thing. We know that, like, you know, you don't ask if you could rob a bank cause the answer's already no. You know? DANIEL: Right. And there's a beautiful essay [inaudible 31:07] by Ologo Magiev [31:09], a child being asked to divine, and their parents died young and so they didn't get the information. And so they invoke their ancestors, and bring a lot of humility, and wing it, and it turns out fine. And, and I think there's also this kind of an implicit message, “And don't do that again. Don't pull that card too many times.” ANDREW: Right? DANIEL: [laughing] Then go train! ANDREW: For sure, right? DANIEL: So, it's both. The deities have kindness, and benevolence, and also, careful! ANDREW: Yeah. And, you know, I was traveling, and I got a call that a friend of mine was like at death's door in the hospital, basically, right? And, you know, and I was just literally at a rest stop getting, gassing up the car when I checked my phone in the middle of New York State, right? DANIEL: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: And I was just like, all right. And so I went and, you know, kind of looked around for some stuff, and it's like, there's nothing, like I can't, there's nothing I could really sort of put together here, so I just collected a bunch of white flowers and, you know, it's really hilly, right, so I just took them to a spot that I thought was appropriate for Obatala ... DANIEL: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: And I was like, Obatala, this is all I have today. I'm here, it's this situation, and I need you to accept these and intercede in the situation. And you can get away with that. But that's not practicing the tradition. And that's not gonna, as you say, it's not gonna fly all the time, right? DANIEL: Yeah. ANDREW: When you're at home, you can do all sorts of other things, you have your shrines or your ancestors or wherever you're working with, right? They will accept these things, cause they do understand circumstance and they're not tyrannical about it, right? They just say, you don't want that to be your way of practicing forever. DANIEL: I spent years like, I don't know, not quite 20 years, not involved in a really dedicated way in one set tradition. I was training with different traditions for a period of time, and would definitely learn stuff, and would develop my own ashe [33:20] or whatever, but I wasn't like embracing one fully, as an operating system. ANDREW: Yeah. DANIEL: But I learned that it's possible to do it that way. That was actually really helpful to me. That it's possible to go deep with one's own ancestors, to go deep with the spirits of the land, where you're at. ANDREW: Sure. DANIEL: And to get to know them, and to get clarity about your own destiny and to just constellate in the different powers and forces and spirits that are gonna help you to do that. And I also ... that there's loneliness in going it solo, as well. There's like a freedom and a loneliness, both. And it drove me eventually to ... You know, I spent almost ten years involved in Orisha practice and Yoruba ways before I decided to initiate. And it's like a long slow dating process. It wasn't a lot of charisma. It was like, oh, you're the last one left standing, and ... ANDREW: [laughing] DANIEL: We have a ton of compatibility, why are we not doing this? And I go, okay, I guess we're gonna do this. So we just had the high match on the dating, you know, religious dating profile website. So I'm like, oh, maybe we should try this. And, and I haven't regretted it at all. It's very ... It's been a relief. The sense for me is of being held in a bigger frame. And it's not really ... It's not what I teach publicly, I'm not publicly offering services in that way, even though there are certain ones I could, in integrity. I'm still in training, I'm still trying to learn Yoruba language, and especially with a west African orientation of practice it's such an aural language-based tradition, especially Ifá practice in particular, so I'm trying to hold a ... I think if you're not ancestrally of a tradition, the standards are even a bit higher for you to get it right, which I think is fair and understandable. Especially with the cultural climate of racism in the west and all that, for European ancestor people to be doing west African Ifa, you need to not look like a fool doing it, and so part of that looks like studying the language and really, you know, taking to heart the training. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. DANIEL: But, it's possible to go really deep without stepping into a tradition. And there are a lot of ritual advantages to having a system to work from, as well. So I appreciate both sides of that. Yeah. ANDREW: Yeah, for sure. I think you can get there ... I think you can accomplish the same ends either way, right? DANIEL: Yeah, yeah. ANDREW: I think that where it gets, where it gets touchy is where you're solely working independently, but within the set of spirits that has a living tradition. If you're only working independently and devoid of traditional teaching, you know, that's where it starts to become a question for me of what ... DANIEL: Well, yeah, no, if the main powers you're working with are the Orisha, it's like, well, you've got to, here's the front door. You can try crawling in the window, but it's going to go badly, so. ANDREW: Yeah. DANIEL: Yeah. But if you're just working with the weird old land gods and your own ancestors, you can get away with it. yeah. ANDREW: For sure. DANIEL: Yeah, for sure. ANDREW: Yeah. I also like the weird old land gods. You know? There's this beautiful ravine, you know, about a two-minute walk from the shop, [crosstalking 36:45] in Toronto. It runs through and you know, under there, there's sort of part of a buried river, that was once upon a time up on the surface, and all sorts of stuff, and there's wonderful and magical energies that are there, and really fascinating things have happened in that space over time. You know? Like I was ... I was there making a ... dealing with something and helping somebody, and making an offering essentially to the spirit of that place in the snow, right? And then when I came out of sort of the wood part back onto the path, all of these moths emerged, these white moths. And I'm like, there's snow on the ground, and it's snowing right now, what is going on with these things? And I'm like, all right, I'll take it. Big old yes from the spirits of this place on that thing, you know? DANIEL: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: So I mean yeah, there's some amazing stuff that can happen in those ways, for sure. DANIEL: Nice. Yeah. ANDREW: So, I mean, first thing is, I'm going to ask you now if people should, if they're listening to this, and they want to think about starting a, you know, where they should start? And I know that one of the answers is definitely, they should go read your book, cause your book is great. DANIEL: Sure. ANDREW: But like, for the context of our conversation today, where would you kind of point people? Where, where do you point people [inaudible 38:02]? DANIEL: I'm not a very trusting person, really. So, if I were to listen to this conversation, and I didn't know that I'm a good person, I would go to my website, which is ancestralmedicine.org. Root around there, see what the vibe is, and there are other talks, or whatever, and see if you, you know, get an instinctual, this guy's not crazy vibe from where I'm coming from, and if you're drawn to the ancestral work, there are three main ways to engage. One is to connect with one of the practitioners in the directory there. And there are 30 some people at this point who are trained in the work. Men, women, all different genders of people [38:43--not sure I've got his exact words here], ancestrally diverse people, lots of different opportunities for low income sessions, sessions in seven languages, so, opportunities to connect with people directly for session work. That's the most efficient way. Another is that I offer an online course that starts in December, that's thorough, and it maps along the heart of the book, chapters 5 through 9, which is lineage repair work, and there's a lot of support throughout that course, so that's an option, and I'll also be offering a course through the Shift network in the fall. And then, a third way is the in-person trainings. And the last one I'm going to guide probably in North America will be in just over a week in Ottawa, the 24th to the 26th, and there's a talk on August 22, next Wednesday, in Ottawa as well, and all the info on that is on my site, and additionally, to that, there are trainings in maybe ten cities and also coming up in Australia and Mexico and maybe Russia and Canada and Victoria, so. And those are done by students who I trust to guide the work. So in person work, online course, or sessions, are, in addition to the book, the three main ways to plug in. Yeah. ANDREW: Perfect. DANIEL: And, and, you know, like just to say it, if you're wary of people, which is warranted, this approach to the work doesn't involve the practitioners or me or anybody saying, “Hey, this is what your grandmother says to you.” It's about stepping the individual through a process of reclaiming and re-energizing their ability to connect directly with their own people. So, it's an empowering approach in that way. It's not somebody getting all up in the mix and channeling messages to your people. There's nothing wrong with that, it's just not this approach, so. And especially if your family's a mess, it's useful to do ancestor work. Cause you get some space from all that, and connect with what's beautiful and trustworthy in your own blood and bone lineages. So that's grounding, it's helpful, also for the cultural healing that's needed. ANDREW: Yes. Well and I think it can be quite liberating, you know, because we're carrying those patterns, right? DANIEL: Oh, yeah. So you can relate consciously or unconsciously with your people, but you don't get to opt out of relatedness. Yeah. ANDREW: Exactly, right? And if we can tidy those up and take some of that burden off of us or free ourselves from that, right? Then we get to show up much differently in that way, right? DANIEL: Yeah. I think the masquerades in Yoruba culture, Egungun, and it's a blessing when they come around, but it's also a lot of people try not to be touched by them. And so there's ... It conveys something about the ancestors, like, they're dangerous to avoid and they're dangerous to have around. ANDREW: Yeah. DANIEL: But, whatever, it's just like living humans. [laughing] ANDREW: For sure. People are challenged on both sides of the veil, right? DANIEL: [laughing] Yeah, exactly. ANDREW: For sure. DANIEL: So, good. ANDREW: Well, thank you so much for making time today, Daniel. It's been great to hang out and chat with you. DANIEL: For sure, thanks, Andrew, thanks for your service, here. Blessings on everything you're up to. ANDREW: Thank you. DANIEL: Yeah. Good.
The Hermit's Lamp Podcast - A place for witches, hermits, mystics, healers, and seekers
TeeDee and Andrew talk about the values of initiation. How it changes a person and how that enhances ones talents. They also talk about Oshun and how Teedee understands her after 20 years of initiation. Connect with TeeDee on her website. Think about how much you've enjoyed the podcast and how many episodes you listened to and think consider if it is time tosupport the Patreon You can do so here. If you want more of this in your life you can subscribe by RSS , iTunes, Stitcher, or email. Thanks for listening! If you dig this please subscribe and share with those who would like it. Andrew ANDREW: Welcome to another installment of The Hermit's Lamp podcast. I'm here today with T-D González, who I know from the Orisha community, and who has been making some wonderful product and really representing some of the things that I think are significant and important about both tradition and initiation. So, for folks who don't know you, T-D, who are you? What are you about? T-D: [laughing] So, I am an Olorisha of the Afro-Cuban Lucumí tradition, initiated to the Orisha Ochún. I was ordained in Cuba in 1999. I live in Los Angeles, California. I'm a mother of two little boys. I'm a widow. I have a lot going on. And I've enjoyed making spiritual baths, which was one of the first things that I learned, one of the first things that many of us learn in the religion. And I've been doing that for about 20 years now, and I just recently began to sell a dried spiritual bath utilizing the herbs that we use in Orisha worship, in Lucumí Afro-Cuban Orisha worship that pertain to Ochún, so it's an Ochún bath. And I'm really excited about it, I love making it, I love working with the herbs, and it's a lifelong learning process for me. ANDREW: Mmmhmm, yeah, it's awesome. I think we need to definitely talk about the herbs but the first question that I want to kind of start with us talking about is, who is Ochún? T-D: [laughing] ANDREW: Right? And I ask this because, you know, I had David Sosa on a while back, and we talked -- T-D: Mmmhmm, mmmhmm, my dear friend. ANDREW: Local human. And, I think it's really important because I think Ochún is, possibly from what I see, one of the most popular of the Orishas, and yet so much of what I see, in general conversation from, you know, people outside of the tradition doesn't often jive very well with my understanding of her from a traditional context at all. T-D: Right. ANDREW: And even in the traditional context, you know, I mean, some of my elders basically say, well she's kind of unknowable. T-D: Right. And she's a deeply misunderstood Orisha. ANDREW: Right! T-D: She's very popular and well loved, probably because of her beauty and because of her dominion over some of the aspects of life that obviously all of us are striving to attain or to enjoy. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: But she is deeply misunderstood. So -- And she means different things, probably, to different people, even among initiates. ANDREW: Yeah. T-D: I see Ochún as elegance and beauty, but maybe not necessarily in the most apparent ways or in the most superficial ways. And I definitely see Orisha as working through other people. So Ochún for me is a motherly figure -- ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: And she's forgiving and she's understanding and she's compassion, but she also can be stern, and she also can teach us very difficult lessons. And she also demands respect. And she demands regard for the counsel that she gives us, you know. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: So, in some ways I always say, you know, I'm a little bit afraid of Ochún. I'm dedicated to her, I'm crowned to her, I love her, obviously, I've dedicated my life to Ochún, and she's blessed my life in many many ways. But Ochún is not an easy crown to wear. People make lots of assumptions about her children and things of that nature. Ochún is a very complex Orisha. On, you know, in the most basic terms, you know, we can say Ochún is a healer, Ochún heals with fresh water, Ochún also makes herbal decoctions, Ochún is a diplomat, Ochún is an astute businesswoman, Ochún is multifaceted, she's an incredible cook, she's a wonderful and caring mother, she's a wonderful mate, there are many aspects of Ochún. And obviously, then there is the connective part of Ochún in terms of sparking human connection between one another. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: One of the praise, Oríkìs or praise names for my aspect of Ochún, is Oneabede. A bede is that long brass needle that's used to sew nets. So we can say she knits together the fabric of families ... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: Or the web of societies. We could just go on and on. ANDREW: For sure, yeah. And I think about Ochún in my life, who's been, ever since I, ever since I sort of entered the religion in about 2000, she's been a constant. Right? She's always standing up for me, always there to help me, you know, always showing up when I need something ... T-D: And she's a fighter! [laughing] ANDREW: She is a fighter, right? And like you said, she demands her respect in a way that is unquestionable, you know? So before we do a ... what's called a reading of entry ... T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: Which is before you get crowned, there's a reading that gets done to make sure that everything's good for the ceremony space, right? T-D: Right. Mmmhmm. ANDREW: Has everything been covered, do we have all the right things, is there some unexpected problem? T-D: Right. Some call it the vista or the obo de entrada, or, you know. ANDREW: Yeah. And Ochún, in my reading of entry, showed up and says, "So no matter who's marked as your mother this weekend, I'm always your mother." T-D: Right. ANDREW: And I was like, "That's right, Mom, you are!" You know? And that continues. And it's definitely that respect piece, but, it's also ... There's a profound intelligence? T-D: Absolutely. ANDREW: That I think that gets overlooked ... T-D: Absolutely. ANDREW: And that diplomat, that business piece, that ... T-D: That social intelligence, that's really really important. You know? ANDREW: Yeah. Mmmhmm. T-D: It's really important. And the whole piece of love, love goddess, and that whole thing, procreation, productivity, which she kind of dovetails, obviously, with our supreme, you know, Obatala, is, I think that the element that has to do with love speaks to self-love. And self-acceptance. And self-forgiveness. As much as anything else. It's not always a sexual kind of thing, you know, and attracting the things that we want to -- Ochún has a lot to do with attraction, Ochún has a lot to do with transformation, but it's not always in a sexual way. It can sometimes be and obviously it is, but those aren't the only, you know, avenues for that element in our lives. ANDREW: Yeah, for sure. So, I think I'm just going to have to collect a bunch of children of Ochún speaking about her nature over time on this podcast. T-D: And I'm sure you'll get 50 different answers -- ANDREW: Yeah! T-D: From 50 different children of Ochún, but -- ANDREW: It will be beautiful. T-D: I want to speak to this thing that you talked about, this whole thing of aché, that we know that we're born with aché, right, and so this aché is this divine, if you want to call it grace, if you want to call it energy, you know, different people call it different things, we're all born with this, right, and we're all made up of this. And some of Vershare's writings even allude to the idea that Oldumare is aché, that God Almighty is aché. We're born with it. And we have our gifts and our grace and our energy, but then to actually be ordained as a priest is to receive the specific aché that we require in order for us to ethically fulfill our destinies, right? That's this idea that we chose a path, that we chose a destiny before we were born. And that we require this aché of these Orishas that we receive aché of, in order to be whole, in a sense, right? Or to be fully aligned with our higher selves. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: And so when we receive this aché, this aché that we receive is not the same aché that we're born with. It's really an amplification, an augmentation of what we have. And then it's almost like, you know Willy talks about this in some of his classes, the oreate ritual specialist Miguel Ramos, talks about this idea that it's almost like you have a bank account deposited of aché. ANDREW: Mmm. T-D: And then you receive, you know, augmentations to that from ceremonies or initiations or additional rites that you undergo. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: And then your behavior and your character help to augment that or to multiply that or deplete it depending on how we conduct ourselves. So those are kind of some avenues or some conversations about aché, and then obviously we have the aché of our, of the Orisha to whom we're primarily dedicated as priests. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: And I think we work for the rest of our lives to kind of develop that and grow that thing, and -- ANDREW: Yeah. And I think there's one other piece that sort of falls into that as well, right? Is that we are initiated, and we receive the energy, the aché -- T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: The grace, right? T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: The connection to the spirit and so on, right? T-D: Yes. ANDREW: But we also are initiated into a lineage. T-D: Absolutely! ANDREW: And we are connected to this line of people and Orishas and aché that go back -- T-D: Absolutely. ANDREW: As far as we can remember. T-D: Absolutely. Absolutely. That's essential. ANDREW: And I think that this notion of, or this practice of, being initiated into a lineage also adds to it, because ... T-D: Absolutely. ANDREW: It gives us permission, or some people might use the word license -- T-D: Right, licencia. Mmmhmm. ANDREW: To work with these spirits, and it forms a contract or a ... you know, most often talked about, like a family bond, right? T-D: Right. ANDREW: Because we use the word egun, which means ancestors ... T-D: Right. ANDREW: And when we use the word egun, we mean our ancestors by blood, our family ... T-D: Right. ANDREW: And our ancestors by initiations -- T-D: Or by lineage, right. ANDREW: And I think that this conjunction of the two forces, right? The energy that we receive directly from people, from our ceremonies, and from the spirits themselves, and that energy that we can access and that we can work with through working with these ancestors, I think that that combination really is where the magic happens? T-D: Absolutely. I agree with you wholeheartedly, cause you're calling on that energy. ANDREW: Yeah! T-D: You're calling on that energy before we do anything, right? ANDREW: Yeah. T-D: When we recite our mouba, we're literally praising God and the deities and the elements and we're literally calling the names ... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: Of those who came before us, of our lineage, and we're calling the names of those exalted priests who existed before us even from outside of our lineage ... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: I think that's essential. And yeah, that absolutely speaks to that concept of ritual license. That aché that you receive as an initiate endows you with something that will develop in time with training into ritual license and the ability to perform and to function as a priest on behalf of yourself, on behalf of others, to benefit the community, absolutely. And that is an essential piece, and it speaks to what the Cubans call fundamento, because if you don't have that you're just kind of floundering, fooling around, and this is not that type of thing. And there are absolutely different spiritual traditions and there are people who are born with deep gifts ... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: With deep connections to their own ancestors, to their own spirit guides. There are people who have to do little to no work to have the things that they do flourish, but Orisha worship is different from those types of systems and traditions. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: This is absolutely a communal system that requires ordination, initiation, training at the foot of elders, recognition by one's elders. As I said, this is definitely a learning path ... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: That one sets their foot upon and they will continue to learn for the rest of their lives. ANDREW: True. T-D: My mother in law lives with me. She's 85, she just celebrated her 60th year as an Olorisha of Ochún, she has crowned many godchildren, she's a wonderful Diloggún diviner, she is an incredibly knowledgeable herbalist, she's just an all-around Olocha of the type that was fairly common 60 years ago when people were kind of all living on that island in that environment and didn't have, didn't function or have to deal with some of the stresses of a modern life in a large place, you know? And she still reads, and she still studies, and she still learns, and she still asks questions in rituals. And she may be one of the -- she's definitely one of the most knowledgeable people, you know, functionally, in terms of ritual competence, that I know. And so it just tells me, this is a learning path, we're on this path for life. ANDREW: Yeah, I think it's, I think that it's really a significant point, right? I think that a lot of people have a notion about spirituality, whether it's this path or another path, and I know when I was younger I had this notion, that we will at some point arrive. T-D: Right. ANDREW: At some point we will get there, and we will be, we will know the things, we'll stop having questions ... T-D: Right. ANDREW: We'll stop whatever, right? And, you know, I mean, I look at the elders that I know, and they're always still asking questions, right? T-D: Right. ANDREW: And it's one of those things that the more I learn about these traditions, and even in my Western mystery stuff, even though I decided to walk away from that path ... T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: I could see how much more there was to learn, and that it was infinite, right? T-D: Right. ANDREW: And I think that it's really important to cultivate that sort of curiosity and engagement, right? T-D: Absolutely. ANDREW: I also think it's interesting, cause you brought up, and I want to kind of talk about this for a bit, before we lose it in the flow of the conversation -- T-D: Okay. ANDREW: That distinction between like Espiritismo, and muertos, like spirits of the dead, right? T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: And, you know, what we would call, what more people might call spirit guides ... T-D: Right. ANDREW: You know, guardian angels? T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: You know, in the sense of like, some spirit that looks over us, and, what do you see as the role of those spirits in your life or in people's lives in general? Because I often see people conflate them with Orisha or with other things, and I'm curious. T-D: Right. And it's -- it's easy to do, especially when we are in a tradition where many of us, and most of our elders even, will use the word egun for everything, right? Anything that's dead is egun. ANDREW: Right. T-D: So, even if they're talking about spirit guides, which we would say muertos, or guías, or protectores, or even ... ANDREW: Ada Orun. T-D: Right, Ada Orun, or even Ada Orun, it's easy to flip that tongue. ANDREW: Yeah. T-D: But yeah. Or even where they, some people talk about -- sorry -- even they use the word egun, people who are practitioners of Palo. So it just kind of gets thrown across the board. So it's -- I think it's important for us to be able to kind of designate or understand the differences, so we don't have this kind of totally crucado kind of crossed up situation, but I think that they are important. I think that a lot of that kind of -- I don't want to call it confusion, but kind of mixed up language, comes from the fact that we are ... Our religious practices and our spiritual practices descend from multiple ethnic groups of people that intermixed together in one geographic location, and so we have people practicing multiple spiritual traditions, you know, again, there's a creolization, it's not just strictly this Yoruba thing, because this is not just a Yoruba religion any more, in terms of the ethnic group. And it hasn't -- it hadn't been that way in a long time in Cuba or Brazil either. And now even more so, it is not, because we've got this kind of universal religion now, where people of different races and ethnic groups and backgrounds are practicing these religions, so. Excuse me. But back to your actual question was, I think that spirit guides have a very important place, I think Espiritismo has an important place in the overall practice of Afro-Cuban religion, because I believe that it fills in some gaps that were missing, and this is one school of thought. There are many schools of thought; there are others who will disagree. And I don't necessarily think -- I don't think it's filling in gaps that have to do with egun or ancestral practices, the more I learn about traditional Yoruba religion and the more that I study and read about that, it seems almost like Espiritismo tape kind of fills in some gaps that are missing with Egbe worship, that did not transfer to the New World. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: And so, oftentimes you'll hear Yoruba scholars describe Egbe as Yoruba Spiritism. ANDREW: Yeah. T-D: Because Egbe is not an Orisha, and it's not one entity, it's like a group of entities that exist in the spiritual realm, and so the more I read of that and learn of that, I see, or I believe, I'm led to believe, that perhaps this filled in a bit of a gap where that was concerned. But I think for all of us, I mean, I come from a house where a lot of Espiritismo is practiced. My elders are espiritistas. I was married to a Palero and espiritista, and I just see how it functions in the life. Once people become developed, it can just help you in so many ways, just in so many little practical ways. But it is a separate practice from Orisha. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: And so I think what often happens is, people who are outside of the religion, who do not have elders, are being led by spirit guides to do things, and they believe that they are interacting with Orisha. And, I just don't think that's the case. So all these girls that you see on Instagram and other forms of social media building these empty altars, altar tables, or they're calling them shrines, that don't have any Orisha in them with all kinds of pretty little knick-knacks and afefedes and mirrors and compacts and things -- those are likely -- I believe the impetus for that is a spirit guide that's pushing them to do that. But they just think it's Ochún. Or they think it's Yamaya. And so they've set up their altar, you know. That's what they really believe, and I think that push is so strong coming from those guides that it's pushing them to do something and they are doing something. And these dreams that they have that they're ... ANDREW: Mmm. T-D: You know, that they may be misinterpreting cause they don't have elders to guide them. ANDREW: Well, and I think that there's an important sort of magical concept at play that people lose track of, or they don't like it. T-D: Okay. Mmmhmm. ANDREW: Which is, when spirit speaks to us, right? They can only speak to us through our conscious and our unconscious, right? And so that communication is very easily flavored. Right? T-D: Okay. [nodding] ANDREW: By our ideas, by our hopes, by our aesthetics ... T-D: Right. ANDREW: By our concepts. And this ... The capacity to differentiate between different kinds of spirits or, you know, whatever, right? T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: I think is very difficult. And if a spirit shows up and wants to help you, and you're like, "Please be Ochún, please be Ochún, please be Ochún," and it's ... It's kind of in that neighborhood, you know? T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: Like, overlaps with that energy, of course that communication is going to get covered with that, right? T-D: Right. ANDREW: You know, it's gonna, it's gonna get clothed in those symbols and ideas, right? T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: You know? And I think that it's really interesting to sort of try and understand how those communications and how those things happen, right? T-D: It does. ANDREW: And I think sometimes it's an ego piece. Sometimes it's an unconscious piece. Sometimes it's ... You know, sometimes it comes from the spirit too, right? T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: You know? But I think that it's really important for people who are exploring in directions like this to, you know, to try and be clear about it and to, you know, if you're looking to go in those directions, you know, considering looking for more traditional verification, you know? T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: Because that's gonna be way more fruitful over time. T-D: Yeah. ANDREW: You know? Because the challenge that I've noticed with a lot of people is, they get pulled into something and into working in a direction, and then they don't know where to go, and the spirit can't guide them further, and so then they get stuck and their life becomes, you know, not what they hoped it would be. T-D: Right. ANDREW: Or they have problems, and not because the spirit's necessarily making them, but because it can't take them anywhere else ... T-D: Right. ANDREW: And then, and then they become disenfranchised, or bitter, or they get deeper issues kind of emerging from that, right? T-D: Yeah. An important factor, I think, is [sigh]. I don't want to throw this all on millennials this or millennials that. ANDREW: Uh huh. T-D: But, you know, different age cohorts do have some tendencies and so we may see a lot of this with millennials not wanting to, you know, follow the rules, or have guides, or submit themselves to elders, or this kind of thing, but I think it's important to just kind of lay it out on the line, that, number one, one factor that isn't necessarily specific to millennials, is that you have people who are kind of -- they may be rejecting, or seeking something outside of the Abrahamic traditions, and so when they find other religions or Afro-Caribbean spirituality, they may be operating under the misconception that because there's not a church per se, that these are not structured religions that have orthodoxy. ANDREW: Right. T-D: And so that can create conflict and a lot of problems. Because these are very structured religions. There is orthodoxy. They are hierarchical religions. They are oral traditions, largely, even though now we have more learning resources that are not ... ANDREW: I think that that is actually, you know, I mean, I'm, I don't know about the millennialness of it ... T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: I mean, you know, I think that the issues ... Every generation has their own ideas, right? T-D: Right. ANDREW: But I certainly think that being ... Everybody in this day and age who has access to the Internet, right? has ideas. T-D: Mmmhmm, mmmhmm. ANDREW: And the amount of people who show up in my orbit who have sort of notions that they've picked up from somewhere that are really quite not traditional, you know? I think it's because of this flood of information ... T-D: There is. ANDREW: And people want it, and so much of it is ... It's kind of half-baked, you know? T-D: It is. There's a lot of incorrect. I mean there are people ... You can go on YouTube and there are people who have tens of thousands of followers who are not giving accurate information. Or who are giving information or who have a perception or what they're voicing is really not orthodox or traditional at all. And so then when someone comes in contact with people who are part of the community and they encounter that orthodoxy, it might throw them off. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: Or even put them off. You know? ANDREW: Right. T-D: Which I think is unfortunate. But I think, you know, there are some aspects of the religion that you can access, just in terms of historical facts, you know? This started out, you know, as an imperial religion that was a part of a culture that believed in the divine right of kings and that the kings are direct descendants of Orisha ... ANDREW: Sure. T-D: And, you know, us, we're, our practice comes largely from the Oyo empire, and so there's lots of structure and strictures and all that kind of thing that exists. It's not just this free-flowing kind of whatever you feel type of thing. And so, I think it's important for people to kind of at least try to learn a little bit about the historical stuff. Just take bites of it, you know? ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: Cause that will kind of put you in a better place, really, than just watching lots of YouTube videos ... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: And things like that. ANDREW: I also think it's interesting because I think that a lot of people who I run into who come into the tradition or are considering coming into the tradition, right, or are coming for a reading or something ... T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: I feel like a lot of them don't know what to do with the reading that they get, right? T-D: Mmmhmm, got it. ANDREW: Someone shows up and they get a reading, and they come in a sign, and it comes out that everything's firm and solid and good, you know? T-D: [laughs] Mmm. ANDREW: And then the reader's like, "Well, the Orishas love you, hugs and kisses, see you later," and they're like, "What do you mean?" T-D: Wow. ANDREW: "What do you mean?" Right? "What do you mean?" T-D: Right. That's problematic too, obviously. ANDREW: Right? T-D: Because those Odos, those divination pattern, which we call Odu, have inherent messages in them. ANDREW: Sure. T-D: And some of them admonish the diviner to speak the more -- I don't want to say negative, but negative side of the pattern, and to give warnings, and --it's a message -- ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: That they're kind of -- As a priest, you know, we have Ita, which are a number of life divinations, but it's the same concept as a road map. One may be temporary while the other may be permanent ... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: But it's still a road map for you to follow for your life, and so even if it's just dealing with a specific point in time and a specific situation, I think, you know, obviously, a lot of people are performing readings [sigh] who just are not conscientious ... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: About the work that they're doing. ANDREW: Right. T-D: It's not just about marking an ebbó or an offering or a sacrifice that you can then charge the person for you to perform. You're really -- It's a connection, right? Between the Ori of the person who's come to receive the reading and the diviner connecting with Elegua, and giving them this message that they require, and so I think that is really important in terms of fully exploring and investigating the message of the Odu that's fallen, and taking the time with someone who is not in the religion. You know? When someone comes for a first reading, it's really important to explain to them what that's going to involve, and what it means, and what to expect, on top of what the actual message is going to be. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: Because as we know, it's easier to lose the blessings that are being foretold than it is to convert negativity that's being expected into blessings. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: You know, so, it's a highly responsible task to perform a reading for someone, whether it's a Diloggún reading or a spiritual reading. It's a highly responsible task and the person who's performing that reading needs to take it seriously and they need to convey that level of seriousness and sacredness to the person who's coming to receive the reading. It's not a game or a parlor trick. It's a connection with ... to the divine. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. Yeah. And it's also not ... although it has the appearance of fortunetelling sometimes ... T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: Like, "hey, watch for this thing ..." T-D: Right. [nodding] ANDREW: It's also not fortunetelling, right? T-D: And the diviner needs to make that clear, also. You know, that this is not fortunetelling. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. And it's also ... The advice about what you don't do is SO important and ... T-D: It really is. ANDREW: Or maybe more important than what you do ... I mean … They're both important, right? T-D: Right. ANDREW: And this notion of the way in which taboos are handed out, right? T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: "Don't do this thing, don't do that thing." I think is something that is also very complicated for people sometimes. T-D: It is. ANDREW: Especially because sometimes those connections are super obvious, right? T-D: Right. ANDREW: Like, you came in a sign that says your head's not very clear, don't drink. Right? T-D: Right. ANDREW: Eh, it's easy to understand, right? T-D: Right. ANDREW: But some of the other connections are less clear, right? T-D: Right. ANDREW: And ... and yet ... they still need to be abided with, and that's sort of ... T-D: Right. And so maybe the diviner could help that person ... you know, kind of give them some insights into it. You may not hit on the exact thing, that that taboo or prohibition pertains to for that person, but it gets them thinking along those lines. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: You know. Don't eat this thing. You know, maybe that thing would make you sick, or maybe when you go to have it, you're going to be at someone's house and it's not going to be well-prepared ... ANDREW: Right. T-D: Or maybe you'll need to make that as an offering one day and it'll save you so it's more of a medicine. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: You've got to kind of open the way that person perceives that prohibition. So that they can think about it differently than just, "I can't have that thing." ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: You know. ANDREW: People don't like to be told they can't have things. T-D: Right. None of us like that, you know? [laughs] ANDREW: So, every time you sit on the mat, be like, "Please don't take away something I like." T-D: Don't take away. Any time you receive another Orisha with any ties, like "oh, don't tell me I can't have this thing." ANDREW: Exactly. T-D: But you know that it's important to observe those taboos because you've chosen this path as your life path ... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: But someone who's just going to receive a reading may not understand that, you know, for the next 30 days, or depending on, you know, how you were taught, the next however long amount of time, while this Odu, while the energy of this divination pattern is around you, you need to, you know, refrain from doing this thing or that thing or engaging in this or that or eating this or that. ANDREW: Yeah. For sure. So, I'm going to switch topics a little bit here ... T-D: Okay. ANDREW: Kind of, kind of but not ... T-D: Uh oh! [laughs] ANDREW: So, we've been talking about aché, right? T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: And, one of the things that I've found fascinating was watching the way in which you described your process around making these new baths that you're offering. Right? T-D: Okay. Yes. ANDREW: You know? And, I mean, can you talk about it, because I think that the commitments to putting your energy into it, and the hands-on-ness of it, I think is fascinating to me, and so I'd love you to share some of that for people to understand. T-D: Oh my goodness. So, I think it's -- There's obviously a little -- This is an unorthodox type of bath, the first bath that I'm offering as an Ochún bath. It's unorthodox in the sense that most people here in the States who practice the religion perceive Orisha herbs as just the herbs we use to consecrate heads and consecrate Orisha. And they're always fresh herbs that we work with. And the herbs that we use for spiritual baths -- Obviously people in Florida and other places, they may use fresh herbs. But in the Afro-Cuban practice, there are some herbs that get boiled. Plenty of herbs are dried, it's fairly common. It's very common for Paleros to work with dry herbs. And so, I'm using -- I'm making a dried herbal product. I'm growing most of the herbs myself. I'm washing them and drying them and confecting the baths with them. And because I'm a one woman show and I'm just starting to do this, I'm labeling all of my tea tins myself by hand, and some of the labels I kind of make, they're not really labels, I wanted it to look a certain way, and I wanted it to have kind of a vintage apothecary look, and I wanted there to be some texture. So I ended up doing a lot more kind of physical hands on -- ANDREW: Cause-- T-D: Crafting, then I had originally thought. ANDREW: You've skipped over a little bit, though, right? T-D: I skipped over a lot! ANDREW: You're growing the herbs -- T-D: [laughing] Yes. ANDREW: And then you're picking them -- T-D: Right. ANDREW: And then you're hand washing them all, right? T-D: Yes, and I'm drying them. ANDREW: And then you're hand drying them -- T-D: Right. ANDREW: So that they can them be properly dried -- T-D: Right. ANDREW: And cured. T-D: Right. Cause I want them to be properly dried and cured. ANDREW: And not like moldy and disgusting, right? T-D: Right. I didn't want them to be moldy or disgusting, and yes, I live in southern California where it's pretty dry, so it's not like I have a big issue with anything getting moldy or disgusting. ANDREW: Yeah. T-D: And I have some nice drying racks that I hang that are like the ones that people might use for tea or other herbs. And in terms of the confection of the baths, it's kind of an unorthodox thing cause there's a lot of praying and singing and not the same exact kind of ora that would go on to make omearo, but some of that, you know, a good little bit of that. There's not divining going on but there was some divining going on in terms of what my ingredients would be for the bath -- ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: And there was consulting with my own elders about that. So -- And I do have some really good teachers. As I've mentioned, my mother in law, my madrina, I also work with my Olua here in Los Angeles who is actually a sustainable gardening specialist, and my other Olua teacher, Luis Marín who lives in Maryland who is an expert herbalist, and he practices achéche, traditional Yoruba Ifa but he's initiated to Elegua in the Lucumí system. So I do have some really knowledgeable teachers to confer with. But in terms of the actual process of it, yes, I'm [laughing] -- you know, I'm making it the way that I would make a bath for someone who came to me to make a bath for them. So, and I sing when I work. I sing when I do a limpieza or, you know, spiritually clean the house. And this is an Ochún bath, so I sing Ochún songs and I sing Osayin songs. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. And -- T-D: And I open my work, I actually stand in front of my shrine and I ring my Ochún bell and I recite oríkì and I pray to her before I start my work, and then when I'm finished making the batch of the bath, and I do small batches, when I'm finished I go back and I pray to her and I sing, and I recite oríkì and prayer and once it's done I light a candle and I sing some more -- ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: And I leave it there at the foot of my Ochún. ANDREW: Yeah. T-D: And sometimes I put my Ochún sopera on top of it! [laughs] ANDREW: [laughs] Just put a little extra of that energy in there! T-D: Yes! ANDREW: Fire it up a little further? T-D: I do. ANDREW: Yeah. T-D: I do, and so, and I want to say, you know, this concept of kind of making magical things, you know, I feel, obviously that the power is inherent in the herbs that I'm working with and inherent in the Orishas and I just have an unwavering faith in that. ANDREW: Mmm. T-D: So, and I have an unwavering faith in my elders and in my lineage and that they put Ochún in my head and they did it properly and they've taught me, and I've conferred with them and that I'm doing this properly, and I do it with a lot of love, honestly. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: A lot of love, and heart, and I say a lot of prayers for -- I'm so emotional, you have to forgive me -- for the people who would use this bath, you know, I pray for them, that they should have good health and that they should have happiness and love in their lives and that they should love themselves and accept themselves, and that they should have prosperity and that goodness should flow to them and to their lives. And so I do a lot of that because that's what I know and that's what I've seen when rituals are performed for me, people pray for me, people pray for my children, and so I pray for the benefit of anyone who would touch anything that I put my hands on, you know. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. Yeah. And I think that, to me, there's that, what I hear and see and what you're talking about is this sort of both the depth of experience, the history of the tradition, right? T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: And that sort of connection to aché and to lineage, right? And I think that, you know, it's -- it goes even beyond just some of those things, right, because it's also your aché, right? T-D: Right. ANDREW: Like you can accomplish these things partly because it's in you from your destiny to do so as well, right? T-D: Right. ANDREW: Like not everybody is meant to be an Ochunista or, you know, an herbalist, or whatever, right? T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: We all have different graces and strengths, and I think that that capacity and attention is so wonderful, right? And, you know, how many, if you count the growing of the plants, how long is it from start to finish before one of these comes out in a tin, right? It's a long time. T-D: It's a long time, it is. And I think that from the beginning, my godmother did always kind of try to motivate me to learn about the plants -- ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: And I said, "oh, it's just too much, it's overwhelming, ah," you know, I like to make the baths, I'll use this, what I know, I'll use that ... But as, over time, you know, little by little, you look, and you have more and more plants, and then I married a guy who was a Palero, so there were more and more plants. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: So you just learn, you don't take it all in one big bite, or one big gulp. ANDREW: Right. T-D: There's no way you can do it! And I don't know the Oju this is associated with, it's “bit by bit we eat the head of the rat,” you know ... ANDREW: Right. T-D: It's this idea, the head of the rat has very little sharp bones in it. And so if you're gonna eat that meat, which is a delicacy, right, for our ancestors, our spiritual ancestors, you have to eat it very very carefully. And so, it's a very slow and kind of careful process. And I don't perceive myself as being particularly knowledgeable. I perceive myself honestly as a rank and file Olorisha and I've been very fortunate and blessed to have some really knowledgeable elders who have shared with me and I will spend the rest of my life learning more about herbs and growing herbs and continuing to take classes, continuing to ask questions of other people older than me and younger than me. And maybe one day, you know, 30 years from now, I'll be an Oceanista ... ANDREW: Uh huh. T-D: But, you know, this project, if you will, is just an incredible, an extraordinary opportunity for me, and I love it, and [shrugs], that's all I can say, I love it, and I wish I had begun with more gusto 20 years ago and not felt ... not allowed it to make me feel so overwhelmed. And I also find it interesting that I've received lots of comments and feedback, you know, from elders who are espiritistas, who say "Oh, al fin tu estás haciendo trabajo de tu muerta principal," like, you know, "finally you're doing this work that, you know, that your primary muerta's been trying to get you to do for years and years." And, you know, I have been told of her, and I knew of her, but I didn't really understand that she was an herbalist. I saw her working over a pot, you know, a caldero, kind of bent over, sitting down, and her hands are moving. You know? And I would say that. And my madrino was like, "What did you think she was doing?" [laughs] "What did you think she was working on over that pot?" ANDREW: [laughing] Yeah. T-D: You know, she was working with barks, and bottles, and ojas, and herbs, and leaves, and stuff, you know. ANDREW: Yeah. T-D: But it's a process and I think it comes to us when we're ready. When we're ready for it and open to it. ANDREW: Yeah. T-D: And sometimes it has come to us little by little over time and we didn't even realize it and then we looked up and said, "Wow! Where did all these doggone plants come from?" ANDREW: Exactly, right? Yeah. Yeah. I think that -- I think that that idea of -- Back to this question about guides and spirits that walk with us, you know? T-D: Yes! ANDREW: I mean, I think that figuring out how to live with that, and work with them, I think is so important, you know? T-D: It's essential but it is so hard for some of us. ANDREW: Yeah. T-D: And I'm gonna tell you this, my background, I'm an African American, my family is from New Orleans, so saints and Catholicism and all that was not foreign to me, but many African American people or others who have or Anglo Americans or others who come from a Protestant background, it seems very Catholic to them, and not only that, but it seems very Christian to those who may be looking for something outside of Christianity. And so, until people dig a little bit deeper and really understand about Espiritismo and that they're different and also different ways of working with these spirits, that's when you kind of get that depth or get that connection that, you know, this is something that's really important to me, and when you are surrounded by, or find yourself in the company of people who are really developed spiritually, and how it helps their lives and how it can help your life ... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: That's when you start to see the importance of that. And when you -- or the importance just of being able to distinguish between your own fears, or your own ego, and messages that are being sent to you from your guides, you know -- ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: Is hard. And I can say, I lost my husband almost six years ago to cancer. I have struggled financially with two young children, living in a city where the schools were great when I was a child but aren't so great now and have to pay tuition for my kids and stuff like that, and make choices that I didn't think I'd have to make because I didn't think I'd be alone. You know, there's a big difference between two incomes and one income. ANDREW: Yes. T-D: And I will give the credit 100 percent to my muertos, my spirit guides, my protectors, and my ancestors that even gave me the idea to sell these baths or make them available to the public, something that I love to do -- ANDREW: Sure. T-D: And that I have been doing for years, and it never occurred to me, and I have been told, Andrew, so many times, you know, "You're going to have a business, you're going to do well at a business one day." Well, I'm not there doing well yet, you know, I'm just starting, but my parents were small business owners -- ANDREW: Yeah. T-D: And I just never -- and we had a very comfortable life, but I just -- the only thing I was really good at was food things, and food businesses are very expensive and rigorous and require a tremendous amount of capital -- ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: And I just couldn't see that. And so when this idea came to me -- This idea didn't come to me! The idea was given to me. It was a blessing that was given to me. And that just blows me away. ANDREW: Well, you know, from a certain perspective, right? T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: So, I started working as a card reader, 15, almost 16 years ago. T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: You know, I quit my job in advertising and started ... T-D: Wow! ANDREW: Reading cards for a living, right? T-D: Okay. ANDREW: And I decided that I wanted to make a product. T-D: Mmmhmm, mmmhmm. ANDREW: And so I started making herbal baths. And this line of baths that I make now. T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: And, you know, I got them in some stores around town, and I did some things with it, and in some ways, that starting point is the starting point of the whole store I have now, where I have a full store now, right? T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: So, you know, and it comes from that listening in, and leaning in, and being like, "All right, spirits, I can do these things. Oh yeah, I can work on that," and, you know... T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: What comes from that listening, in my experience, especially if we're faithful to it, right? Over time-- T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: Is everything, everything comes from there, right? T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: And I think about, when I show up at the shop, or tonight's Saturday and we're recording and I'm gonna lock up later and go home -- T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: I always lock up everything and sit here and check in with all my guides and my spirits and I thank them for this, and I thank the Orishas when I pray to them every day, because all of this comes from their guidance and their influence, and my work, but -- T-D: And it's a blessing. It's a degree of freedom for your family. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: And when I was a young person, a teenager, I just saw the work, you know, my parents did. And they had multiple small business endeavors, and they were successful, but there was a lot of work. ANDREW: Sure. T-D: But working for yourself, there's just a degree of freedom, a space for personal expression and creativity, independence -- ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: That you'll never find in corporate America or corporate Canada or in the West, you know ... ANDREW: Corporate anything, right? T-D: Anywhere, you're just not gonna find that. ANDREW: It's just corporate Earth now. Isn't that the deal? T-D: Right. That's what it is, right, globalization. But I just, if I could develop this in time, you know, in a few years or whatever, into something that I could do full time and have a small shop and grow some herbs on the roof, or in the back, or whatever, that is my ultimate goal, and to be able to kind of be there for my kids, and they can come into the shop and go in the back and do their homework and help me carry stuff or whatever ... ANDREW: Yeah. T-D: That's a beautiful way of life, because it allows you to engage in something that you value and something that you can share with the community, that you can share with others, and it allows you to continue to grow -- ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: As a priest, and to grow in your spiritual practice and your knowledge and ultimately, you'll be able to pass that on to other people as well. So yes, definitely, you know, you're someone who I see as a shining example, you know, honestly. ANDREW: Well. Thank you. Well. So, let's see if people want to go and check out your stuff, they should know where to find you. T-D: Oh, yes! ANDREW: Where are you hiding out on the web there, T-D? T-D: So, I have a website, it's https://www.spiritualbathtea.com, and you can order the bath there. It's an Ochún bath for love and prosperity. It has a lot of beautiful things in it. And Andrew, I'll send you one, I know that you're a master bath maker but I'm gonna send you my bath, because it's just like wine, maybe you have your vineyard and I have my vineyard ... ANDREW: Oh yeah, for sure. T-D: You know, but we can enjoy each other's products of one another's labors ... ANDREW: Absolutely. T-D: And I'll definitely be sending you a bath. ANDREW: Super. I can't wait! T-D: But yes, it's got at least five of Ochún's herbs in it, it has more, and it's got some other really nice elements in it that ... it's got three different types of sandalwood in it, it smells really lovely, and it's a really beautiful bath and I've received a lot of really positive feedback about the bath from users, and I love making it and I put a lot of love and care into it. And it definitely gives a new meaning, and you know, the word art, or the word crafts, these have many different meanings, and what were the meanings, the original meanings, of, you know, these things. ANDREW: Well, you know what, the really funny thing is, you're kind of actually doing what the millennials are doing. T-D: I am? ANDREW: You are, cause I mean, what I see a lot in sort of the millennial culture, things that people see about that, is this return to hand crafted, to small batch, to stuff made with love, right? T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: So you see these sort of various things, food wise, and you know, clothing wise and otherwise ... T-D: Right. ANDREW: That, they're not corporate, they're not mass-produced. T-D: Right. ANDREW: They come from people who have learned how to, you know, hand do things -- T-D: Right. ANDREW: In traditional ways or new ways. T-D: And this will never be mass-produced, ever. ANDREW: Yeah. T-D: It's just not that -- that's not my concept, it's not that kind of thing. So if I wake up tomorrow and you know, Amara la Negra or Beyoncé put me on their, you know, social media, there'll just be a back log, but the order will get filled, but you know, I might buy a couple of those labeling machines, to label my tins, [laughing] or you know, like I said, my dream is to be able to afford to buy 10,000 from China of those fancy tea tins that are already embossed and printed, but the bath is, it's always going to be something that is beautiful, that I'm going to put as much beauty and love and care into as I possibly can, and that my own hands have touched, because that's it, you know, that's where the magic is -- ANDREW: Yeah. T-D: It's multi-- it's multifaceted, right? It's got these different components. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: And so, you've got your spiritual license, your ritual license, your learning competencies, but it's also what you put into that thing, you know? ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: There are lots of people who are well-trained, who are very knowledgeable, and who are duly ordained, who just throw some shit together. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: All day long. And I will never ever do that. Cause that's got a lot to do with personal integrity and accountability to Orisha, too! Why -- I mean, I'm going to try to make the most beautiful thing that I can if it has Ochún's name on it. And when I do my Obatala bath, it's gonna be the most incredible excellent thing that I could ever imagine. ANDREW: Yeah. Because I love Obatala, and he loves me, because he gave me a wonderful husband. You know, I just am always going to do the very best that I can. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: And to try to make something, and plus we want to please people, right? We want people to feel that their money is well spent and that their effort in acquiring the thing is well spent. ANDREW: Right. T-D: And is special to them. ANDREW: Yeah. And I know for myself, whenever I'm in a position to represent the religion in one way or another, I feel a lot of pressure. T-D: Absolutely! ANDREW: Right? To get it right. T-D: Absolutely! ANDREW: I made an Orisha tarot deck, which is coming out in the fall through a major publisher, right? T-D: Oh, wow! Okay. ANDREW: And-- through Llewellyn, it'll be out in September. T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: And, it took me a long time to make it because I constantly felt this pressure, from me, right? T-D: Yeah, it's from you, it's just like any overachiever ... ANDREW: Right? T-D: You're not competing with other kids, you're competing with yourself. [laughing] ANDREW: There's nobody else, it's just me and the art, or you and the bath, or whatever. T-D: Right! ANDREW: Yeah, no, it's fantastic. T-D: That's definitely what it is. I definitely put my best into it. And I hope that that shines through and that people will see that and just to add one more thing, you know, it's really important, this idea that we have, of that license [sighs]. I just can't really say enough about that, I kind of get emotional about it. You can't create an Orisha bath if you don't have Orishas. ANDREW: Mmm. T-D: You know? And they're certain herbs that belong to Orishas, and all the herbs belong to Osane, but if you don't have the ritual license to work with those entities, how are you creating a bath? How are you creating a ritual? You can certainly do a spiritual bath, you know, working with your spirit guides, and working with your muertos, your protectors and guides, but working with Orisha requires Orisha. Requires consecrated Orisha. ANDREW: Yeah. T-D: So. ANDREW: For sure. T-D: Don't just throw some oranges and some -- ANDREW: [laughing] Cinnamon -- T-D: Yellow flowers and some honey and cinnamon in the bathtub and say that you're doing a bath with Ochún cause Ochún is not there in that bath with you. ANDREW: Yeah. T-D: [laughing] Not to be snarky! ANDREW: No, I think, I think it's important conversations, right? And I think that one of the reasons why it's my intention to have you and David Sosa and, you know, other traditional practitioners on, is I think that it's really important to have a dialogue about what tradition actually has to offer, right? And I think that it's a thing that's hard to understand, it's a thing that is not obvious in sort of the more modern world ... T-D: Right. ANDREW: And it's not obvious if you didn't grow up in a magical tradition or in a magical, you know, I mean, I had the great fortune to not be raised with any religion ... T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: And I discovered Western mystery tradition stuff, and Western esotericism when I was like, 11 and 12, right. T-D: Mmmhmm, Mmmhmm. ANDREW: So I grew up self-educating myself in a magical approach to the world. T-D: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: And I think that's what has allowed me to step into it and into the Orisha tradition so well, is that the only traditions I've ever known have been magical. And spiritual in this way. And -- T-D: Yeah. ANDREW: And were also initiatory, right? T-D: Mmmhmm, mmmhmm. ANDREW: Right? You know? They're all pieces that I understood from the beginning, kind of coming into this, right? T-D: Right. ANDREW: I think it's important. T-D: And, it's very important. It's foreign to a lot of people, and, you know, it's important to say, you know, Orisha worship is not a self-initiatory system, it's a communal system, that has an intact priesthood, it has existed for many generations, for thousands of years if you go all the way back -- ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: And it's an ancient religious system that has an orthodoxy and a priesthood and a specific path that one follows and that's very important. And that you cannot, even though the world changes, things change, things evolve, you can't fit Orisha into your own mold or -- ANDREW: Mmmhmm. T-D: Or mold Orisha to fit your lifestyle, in that type of way. It's not that type -- it's a religion, it's a structured religious system. ANDREW: For sure. All right. Well now we've given everybody something to think about! T-D: Yes. ANDREW: Thank you for making time -- T-D: Thank you! Thank you so much for having me, I really appreciate it, it was very kind of you and I appreciate your time. ANDREW: Oh, it's my pleasure, thanks. T-D: Thanks.
The Hermit's Lamp Podcast - A place for witches, hermits, mystics, healers, and seekers
Austin and Andrew talk about astrology from a lived perspectice. The conversation runs through ways in which both have worked with the planets magically to grow as people and achieve practical magic. This is conversation is a rarity in which the actual application of planetary magic gets to be the star of the show. Think about how much you've enjoyed the podcast and how many episodes you listened to and think consider if it is time tosupport the Patreon You can do so here. If you want more of this in your life you can subscribe by RSS , iTunes, Stitcher, or email. You can find Austin on his website here. His newsletter is defintely worth reading. Thanks for listening! If you dig this please subscribe and share with those who would like it. Andrew If you are interested in booking time with Andrew either in Toronto or by phone or Skype from anywhere click here. Transcription ANDREW: Welcome to another installment of The Hermit's Lamp podcast. I am here today with Austin Coppock. And I know Austin from his wonderful chats with Gordon White on Gordon's podcast, where they do a twice a year sort of check in about what's going on astrologically and what's coming down the line. And, you know, it's always very insightful and it sets a nice framework for sort of thinking about the bigger pictures of what's going on. So, I've been listening enjoyably to those and thinking that having Austin on here to chat about what happens as we live with astrology and think about astrology and you know, all that kind of stuff as we go through our lives would be wonderful. But, in case people don't know who you are, Austin, why don't you give us an introduction? AUSTIN: Okay. I suppose I'll start with my most public face. I am a professional astrologer. I write about what's happening, what's going to happen, in different time frames, ranging from the daily to the decadely. I've also been a consulting astrologer full time for the last ten years as well -- eleven years -- and I also teach a variety of classes about astrology and also some about the astrological magic tradition. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. And, how did -- I'm curious how you got into astrological magic. Because I came out of sort of western ceremonial stuff, which I got into as a teenager and spent a long time playing with and working with, and one of the things that was my favorite was this sort of planetary work and those kinds of things. You know? And it's actually one of the few pieces that sort of endures from that time, as something that I still sort of play with in my life and in my practice, but where did that come from for you? How did you find your way into that? AUSTIN: That's a good question. I have a convoluted but hopefully coherent answer. [laughs] So, when I got -- when I first got really into astrology, when I was maybe 19, 20, it had a lot of paradigmatic implications to me. The fact that it worked -- and it didn't just work in a fun -- it was more than just the extremely colorful Rorschach test, which I thought it was at first. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AUSTIN: And, it does function very well in that regard, right? But it's -- when I started seeing it reflecting life and death level events -- I actually predicted some deaths that happened during that time, which is not something I do in my practice now. Maybe, maybe, if someone really wants to do that, and I think their reasons are good, but you know, I didn't take it seriously. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AUSTIN: And so that's a pretty good way to get you to take things seriously. To just -- ANDREW: Yeah! AUSTIN: To throw death in there, right? [laughs] And so, that got me -- that also made me take seriously the paradigmatic implications of astrology. If, you know, if astrology could say things that serious, then a lot of what I had been taught about the world was either incorrect or woefully incomplete. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AUSTIN: And, around that same time, I started training with some people who did internal martial arts, where -- cause I'd been doing martial arts for, I don't know, since I was a kid -- but, I'd never really experienced anybody who could do anything that made me think that chi was anything more than a metaphor -- ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AUSTIN: But then I started training with a guy who was from a school, and then I went to that school, and, you know, the teacher could do things that were impossible if, you know, if this chi wasn't actually describing part of reality. [laughs] ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AUSTIN: And so that brought, I'd say, that played a, that was another piece in changing what I thought was real, right? You know? In a very physical way. You know, getting your ass kicked by something you can't explain really makes you think about it. ANDREW: Yeah. AUSTIN: And so, as I got -- I started doing massive amounts of chi gong and meditation, and that -- it was sort of in the space that that opened up, that's where the magic came through for me, and it came through hard and fast and confusing, as I think it does for a certain percentage of practitioners -- ANDREW: Sure. AUSTIN: And so, I, you know, I'd intersected with some magical material before. You know, you're ... Back when people went to bookstores, or ... like, you know, you go to the astrology section, and right next to it, is, you know, there is Crowley. ANDREW: Yeah. AUSTIN: And there's Modern Magic. And, you know, I popped those open, and there are tables of astrological correspondences. So, I was aware of this material because of its proximity to astrology, both physically and as an art, like literally the books were next to each other, right? Which is, by the way, you know, a reason to go to bookstores, right? [laughs] Yeah, I mean, yeah, I can get it on Amazon, but a good bookstore, you're going to encounter things that are proximal to, you know, to what you're doing. It may be that what you think you want is actually just, you know, a pathway to the thing that's right across from it on the shelf, right? ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AUSTIN: Anyway. And so, yeah, I jumped into the magic, I memorized, the, you know, Golden Dawn correspondences, and I went crazy with some shadow tarot and Typhonian OTO stuff, and spirits, big spirits popped into my life from traditions I'd never had any intersection with, which was very, that was some of the most confusing. Some of the -- you know, some of the spirits whose names are, you know, primarily found in Haitian vodou popped into my life, and I literally had to look up what these awesomely powerful figures were, cause I didn't even know the names. ANDREW: I think there's some sort of fundamental connection between that sort of Thelemic occurrence, right? And those African diasporic spirits, right? AUSTIN: I -- ANDREW: Not to interrupt your whole line of thought. AUSTIN: No no no no no, that's a really interesting, there's the, well, I'm not, it would be impossible to characterize me as a Thelemite at any point, but, you know, if we're talking about the larger Thelemic current, you know going from Crowley and then to Grant and then working with Linda Falorio's, I don't know, you could call it reification of the tunnels? What I found -- what I got from that was like a deep magical enema! [laughs] It like blew open, it opened up all of these channels. It made all of these ... It created all of these wonderful emptinesses and absences, which you need ... A channel needs to be empty in the middle, right? ANDREW: Yeah. AUSTIN: And that allowed a lot of stuff to come in. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AUSTIN: And that's funny, I don't hear people talking about that material in terms of creating, sort of, you know, it's sort of like draining out the nightmares from a tunnel, so that there's a ... so that that beautiful and fecund absence can then, you know, things can emerge from that, that more primordial state. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AUSTIN: And part of my experience was probably because I was coming from, you know, a couple of years of intense Taoist practice ... ANDREW: Right. AUSTIN: You know, where, there's a lot of ... there's a big focus on returning to the fertile void state, or Wu Chi, and then you're supposed to do that at the beginning of every Tai Chi form, and every pretty much any internal form ... and you know returning to that, and then emerging out of it, and so that was, you know, it's still a very important space. But anyway, that's what I ... that's part of what I got out of that tunnels work. And I was led by various loa to make some excellent changes in my life, and when then not too much longer ... or you know, and I experimented with some of the sort of Golden Dawn lodge-style planetary magic ... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AUSTIN: You know the six and seven stars, and the Denning and Phillips Planetary Magic book, and that was interesting, but it didn't ... It didn't quite sing. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AUSTIN: Actually, you know, just a funny anecdote. The first sort of formal astrological magic operation I did was this evocation of the spirit of Jupiter -- or it was like a -- yeah, it was an evocation of the spirit of Jupiter, and I got this figure that was like this good-natured pigheaded mayor of, you know, like, he was like, "I'm the mayor!" you know, like kind of big and jovial, and I was like, "Pigheaded, huh?" Like not stubborn, but like literally had a big hog head. ANDREW: Yeah. AUSTIN: And only maybe last year I was reading Jeffrey Kotyk's dissertation, and Jeffrey Kotyk does some really interesting work. He's looking at astrological texts in Tang era China, and what he's finding are translations of core Hellenistic astrologer, astrology texts, like Dorotheus, as well as a lot of Persian and Indian material, and it's being kind of received, and redescribed, and it gets all the way to Japan, all of that material gets all the way to Japan by the 10th century, which is a very different shape of transmission than what most people have been thinking. Anyway. So, in one of these texts is like, how to make a magical image so that this planet, you know, you'll have this planet's favor, and it won't fuck you up. And the Jupiter one is, involves the hog. Like in some of those traditions they see the animal of Jupiter consistently being the pig. And so, these are, you know, these are these funny things where you just experience something and then you find out, you know, sometimes years later, that, oh yeah, thousands of people saw exactly that when they looked, you know, deeper into Jupiter's sphere. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AUSTIN: But anyways, you know, so I was doing experiments, and then the -- someone placed the Picatrix in my hand and said "I think you'll know what to do with this," and this was -- this was -- I think this was 2007. And this was when -- this was before the Warnock Greer translation of the Latin, and it was the first volume from Ouroborus Press, and that was all that was available then, and so, I cracked that open and read it, and I was like, "Oh yes, this is it," and went about experimenting immediately. Well, as soon as the next favorable election was. ANDREW: Right. AUSTIN: Because the ... That current of traditional talismanic astrological magic doesn't, how shall we say, it brings all of the sophisticated timing that astrology provides directly to bear on the operation, and it -- in my experience, it allows for a much much much much much higher voltage current, to transform the things around one, than the lodge style approach to planetary magic. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. I think it's -- I've done both, at different times? You know, I've spent a lot of time in the OTO and, you know, doing a lot of that kind of stuff, and in the Aurum Solis, and doing that sort of planetary work -- AUSTIN: Mmm. ANDREW: Within that, and so on-- but, you know, it's funny, like the things, a lot of the more formal stuff was fruitful for whatever it was that it was being worked on, but some of the better things that I ever did were works where I was only focused on myself, right? They were sort of like these internal planetary workings, you know? AUSTIN: Mmmhmm, mmmhmm. ANDREW: So like I remember, the most significant of which was that I spent a year invoking the moon at each of its transitions between the signs, and doing essentially like a communion ceremony with that, and internalizing that energy as a way of attempting to redress the imbalances that I experienced, both through my understanding of my chart, which was fairly limited at that time, but also through sort of my psychological and emotional imbalances that I was experiencing, you know, and that sort of repeated cyclical work was so helpful at shifting those things, you know? And I no longer remember where I got the idea from, because it's not anything I ever really came across, it was sort of definitely came out of a hybrid of what I was seeing done and it's almost the extent, the depth at which I felt I needed to work in order to make those shifts, right? So, yeah, I think there's a lot -- it's fascinating. AUSTIN: That 100% makes sense to me. And I've also sort of ended up doing stuff like that. I still do stuff like that, even though, you know, there wasn't a text that suggests that. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AUSTIN: I think that that cycle of work, or course of work model, with a particular planet is ... That is, that's sort of the slowly sanding down the rough edges of that sphere within you and the way that it manifests in your life, and that in many ways I would say that that's the foundation of, how shall we say, being like the archetypal perfect astrological magician. Is that you get to know, and you do your best to perfect all of the spheres within you. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AUSTIN: Now, that makes -- that's connected very closely to some traditions of astrology in India. I've recently begun studying the Parashara tradition with a teacher, with a lineage holding teacher. And the way that they address, one of the ways that they address remediation is, I don't know, you know, my Mercury sucks, so how do I improve that area of my life, right? ANDREW: Yeah. AUSTIN: Is that [missing time -- 00:16:33-16:55] ANDREW: Can you hear me? AUSTIN: It happens. ANDREW: So, you were just talking about, basically you just started mentioning the India thing, and how they were remediating their Mercury, or whatever they were going to -- AUSTIN: Yeah. Right. So, the ... One approach to remediation is basically, it's basically a cycle of planetary work. You know, they'll use a deity connected to a planet. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AUSTIN: And so, you know, you'll do a particular mantra, which is -- You know, when you really look at the structure of mantras and how they're used, you know, it's a blurry line between prayer, spell, conjuration, and mantra, in a lot of cases, but you know, you would do that, you would do your work regularly according to the astrological calendar. Like if you're working on your Mercury, you'd work Mercury, every, you know, every Wednesday during a particular planetary hour, and, you know, for your Mercury you might use, you know, a Ganesh mantra, where [missing time 00:18:00-18:07] whereas another person might use -- divine forms associated with each planet, it's not just one for one, but that's very, you know, when you look at it from a distance, it's very similar to doing a cycle of work. ANDREW: Yeah. AUSTIN: I -- have you ever done, sort of like a planetary prayer or attunement every day on the day and hour of the planet for a week or two? ANDREW: I mean, not so much with that. You know, I mean, I did Resh, so the four points of the day, for a long time, the solar adorations, and I did, you know, I did a lot of sort of working with and invoking those kinds of things, but a lot of my other practices that were ongoing were structured purely at the times that were convenient, so I would ... I did a year of mantra work and I would just do it at the same time every morning every day because that was the only time that fit into my lifestyle, so I didn't have the luxury of, or maybe even the consideration at that point of time of tying it to other forces. ANDREW: Well, we're stuck again. AUSTIN: Yeah. I found some ... ANDREW: So, you were just asking me if I had done a sort of series of works that were tied to a planetary hour, which isn't really something that I had done, in a concrete way. I mean, transitions and stuff like with the moon, whatever time of day it changed signs, I tried my best to be in the temple at that time, but otherwise, not so much, but I'm assuming from your question that you have. AUSTIN: Oh yeah. It's a not terribly difficult or time-intensive way to really get a sense of what the different planetary currents are, in an experiential way ... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AUSTIN: And, you know, and, by, you know, essentially kind of sipping from that cup, every day, you get a sense of both what the planet's essential quality is, as well as how that is changed, modified, obstructed, or supercharged by what's happening now with that planet. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AUSTIN: And so yeah, that's something I just kind of, I didn't set it as like, you know, we're going to do this every day for a month. It's just something I probably do, five to seven times a week. It's just, you know, I just, you know, take 15 minutes. They're not big rites, but it's just hooking in, because the day itself, that's sort of the juice the day itself is running on, the quality of time, which intersects with the day. It's an easy and useful course of work. I believe Gordon White actually suggests that to his members in his membership sort of group project area. I was happy to see that. ANDREW: Yeah. Well, I think it's so helpful to really understand astrology, at least in my experience, to have more experiences of it. Right? So often people come into my shop for a reading or whatever, like, I want a reading for this person, giving them some advice, and they're like "Oh, I have this sign, so I could never do that," so I'm like, "All right. But, like, I think you have options, right?" But people have these notions that they've acquired about what their charts mean or what this and that means. But these practical experiences of it, you know, I think they hand the real truth of the ability that we have to shape or modify or soften or ameliorate things to our advantage, as well as building that understanding about how we interact with what's going on now both in the world and in the sky AUSTIN: Yeah, totally. I find myself thinking about working with the energies present, you know, on whatever day as well as those present in my natal chart. I tend to default to thinking about them in Chinese medical terms, traditional Chinese medical terms? Right, you can, with any, you know, any point on the energy meridians, you can tonify it, you can basically boost it, you can strengthen that energy, you can disperse that energy, you can work on circulating it or cleaning it, you know, in a sense there's like pacify, clarify, and stimulate. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AUSTIN: You know, and you might have a chart where, oh, let's say, Mercury is playing a really key role. Like let's say you have Mercury in the 10th house, and so you know, what you're going to be ... That means that your professional life will demand a lot of mercurial action from you. I for example have Mercury in the 10th, and so it's my ... I always have to put things into words ... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AUSTIN: Because I speak and write about these topics. And so, there are ... there's a lot of demand for Mercury, in my professional life. ANDREW: Right. AUSTIN: Now, you can have a situation in a chart where a particular energy is of pivotal importance, but you don't necessarily, you aren't necessarily blessed with the abundance and clarity of that energy that you need or that, you know, it would be really nice if you had a little bit more of that. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AUSTIN: And so, you know, that would be an example where you wanted to boost that energy. Right? Cause where you're like, no no, I need more, I have like 12 more pages in this book and it's due, you know, in three days, the draft is due in three days ... ANDREW: Yeah! AUSTIN: And so, you know, that would be an example of like, needs more. You know, that's where you'd stimulate or add a bunch more Mercury to it. Then you might have, oh, I don't know, maybe a gnarly configuration, let's say Saturn conjunct, oh, let's just say Saturn ruling your 7th house, right, where Saturn is going to speak to the development of romantic matters in your life and let's say Saturn's in kind of a rough condition, and it's, you know, it's just kind of all Saturn all the time. Even when you're with somebody, you feel, you know, you feel confined or alone, you have a hard time breaking through your own walls, right, there's too much Saturn. And so that would be, you know that would be a point where you'd want to calm or sedate Saturn. ANDREW: Yeah. AUSTIN: And this is actually something I've been thinking about a lot lately. Partially because I'm teaching a class on traditional astrological talismans for the first time, but, there are other reasons as well, it's just come up, is that, is looking at the structure of conjurations and prayers, to the planets particularly, there's a big, there's a difference between praising, you know praising, exalting, and thereby evoking the energy and power of that sphere. Like that stimulates it. Whereas, you know, if you look at, I don't know, for example, some of the Orphic hymns, the Orphic hymn to Mars, is really, it's a "don't hurt me, bro" prayer. ANDREW: [laughs] AUSTIN: It's not a like, "oh lord of the battlefield, fill me with Viking strength," right? It's a like, "you do all these things, and I recognize that, so could you not do that to me? Would that be cool?" ANDREW: Exactly. "How about you do that outside the walls of my city, or my house, or my heart," or whatever? AUSTIN: Right. You know, "oh, lord of the forge, let's beat some swords into ploughshares, right, cause you can do that too, that's not maybe your favorite thing but you can do, let's do that version of it?" ANDREW: Yeah. AUSTIN: And, anyway, I've just been thinking about how, cause you know, in the past, those are the differences in function of the different planetary calls and conjurations have been less distinct for me. And also, you know, in the Parashara tradition, there's not one god, one planet. Well, there kind of is, but there kind of isn't. You would address, so, I don't know, let's find a good example. Okay! Let's ... for gods that intersect with Mars. Right? Let's ... There's Aries, obviously ... ANDREW: Sure. AUSTIN: And then -- But we could also look at Ogun. Right? Ogun is not Mars. But Ogun can definitely work through and help you work with martial energy. Right? It's important not to conflate them. But, you know if we compare the stories and the quality of the Greek Aries with the West African Ogun, there are different elements that are emphasized. Ogun, for example, has a very constructive quality, you know, industrial strength labor. The ability to heat, beat, and shape the metal and thereby the material world. Right? ANDREW: Sure. AUSTIN: And the machete not only chops off heads, it also clears the pathway, right? It clears the forest. And so, if we look at the traditional planetary significations of Mars, Mars is absolutely the, you know, the planet where you see blacksmithing and heavy industry, you know, it's all there. And so, you're going to get a different, you know, if you're sort of going through a planet to get to a god, and then you're asking a god to shape that planet, or help you work with that planet, you know, the different figures that, you know, the basically, the name that you pick, the god that you see in dwelling the planet is going to change the nature of the operations as a result. Does that make sense? ANDREW: Yeah, for sure. AUSTIN: Okay. ANDREW: You really want to shape it by being clear what you need, right, and what you want. Whether that's more or less or a particular aspect, or hey, do what you're doing but don't do it in the house, or you know, whatever, right? AUSTIN: [laughs] Yeah. ANDREW: You know, I think of -- I have Mars in Aries, right, and I think -- AUSTIN: Oh, okay! ANDREW: About it. Number 1, it's the gas in the tank. I have a lot of gas in the tank a lot of the time. Right? Sometimes I rely on it too much and that doesn't go so well. But it's also the thing that had me doing martial arts for a long time and constantly being like, more, harder, faster, let's go, let's go, let's push the limit, right? And then you know, there came this point where I was like, "less, less of that! That is not helpful!" You know? And I remember, explicitly, I went skydiving with a bunch of friends, and everybody landed and was like "Oh my god, it's the best thing ever," and I landed, and my pulse wasn't even going, because I was doing so much high adrenaline stuff all the time ... AUSTIN: [laughing] ANDREW: And I was like, "Yeah, it was cool, whatever." And then a few days later I was like, "No, this has to stop. This is not -- that energy is too unbridled for whatever reasons, and now I need to pull that back," right? AUSTIN: Well -- so generally speaking, a planet that is in a sign that it rules, like Mars in Aries, one, it, unless it's being interfered with by other planets, that area just works naturally, it's like "Oh yeah, you know, like, how do, what do you do when it's go time? Oh, you just go!" Like, that's the Mars in Aries answer. ANDREW: Yeah. AUSTIN: Whereas, you know, Mars in Cancer might be like, "Yeah, but it's really uncomfortable to go, and I might, you know, like, you know ..." There's the sideways crab walking. ANDREW: Yeah. AUSTIN: So, it's great to have a planet in the sign that it rules, but there is the danger of excess, because that feels so natural and easy, even if it's hard. ANDREW: Yeah! AUSTIN: Right? Mars is how we deal with things that are hard and fast, but you're like, oh no, it's natural and easy to deal with things that are hard and fast. ANDREW: For sure, my motto back at that time was, "If I'm afraid, I should do it, and if I'm really afraid, I should do it now." [laughs] That was it. That was a number of years of my life, right? AUSTIN: Well, that is a recipe for maximum adrenaline, right? ANDREW: Right, exactly! You know? So, it's fascinating. But then there's also this thing where, it's time to turn it down, right? Time to roll that back into other things, you know? And so, there was then that process of kind of shifting that focus and doing some work and switching more to internal martial arts -- AUSTIN: Oh! ANDREW: The Qigong and Tai Chi type stuff, you know coincided with my interest in the I Ching, and a lot of explorations through that and so on, so you know, yeah, it's one of those things where yeah, I grabbed that energy by the horns and like slow it down, and it was very frustrating for a period of time, because it did not want to be slow. But you learn a lot, you know? AUSTIN: I had a very similar experience. [laughs] ANDREW: Yeah, for sure! Go ahead! AUSTIN: Oh no. If I keep going, I'll tangent on martial arts for an hour, so -- ANDREW: [laughing] Well, that'll be a separate episode. We'll have some martial arts talk. So, I think that one of the things that always interests me about astrology is this sort of, this notion of, it can explain everything, in a certain way, like that's definitely sort of the sense of it, right? There's patterns, there's the pieces, there's what's going on. But you know, I hit this point in my own astrology studies where I felt like I had to choose between continuing to proceed full on into tarot stuff, which you know I felt like kind of my superpower area, and the level of study that I would need to kind of continue to understand these complexities and that. And the one thing that I found, though, kind of over time, was that there were things that emerged that I started looking at that were never what I really would have expected. You know, I find the indirects in my chart super-instructive, whether that's just my chart or whether that's the nature of them, or, you know, like those kinds of things, but I'm curious, like, what are, you know, and people know what their sun and their moon and whatever are probably, right? But like, what are some of the other ideas or other things that you look at that are maybe not, you know, a first glance, you know, from reading a book on it kind of idea? What are the placements, or the angles, what are things that sort of stand out to you as things that seem significant? AUSTIN: Well. I mean, that's a big question. ANDREW: I know! AUSTIN: I mean starting with sun, moon, and rising sign -- ANDREW: And if it's too big a question or too unfair-- AUSTIN: I think I can chunk it down. ANDREW: Yeah. AUSTIN: So, two things. One, so, you know, the very basics of astrology are the positions of all the planets in the zodiac and those positions in the houses, so that's actually quite a bit, right there, and then the relationship between the significant angles or relationships between those planets, the aspects and their meaning, and then, a lot of people after some study will get that far, but the one thing that's been underemphasized before the semi-recent traditional revival is the role of essential dignity in a chart, which is, you know, what is the difference between a planet in a sign that it rules versus a sign where it's exalted, versus detriment, what is triplicity dignity and all these things, and that gives you a whole.... That gives you a tremendous amount of depth, and it also allows you to gauge not just the type of result -- and we could say, oh, you know, Mars rules the 7th house of relationship, and so we will see, you know, that person will tend to be in fiery and passionate affairs, they don't want to get bored, they don't mind a little adrenaline in the bedroom. But is it ... There are much more functional and much less functional versions of that. And that's -- you know, judging not just type of event, but quality of event. You know, you could have something that was fast and violent but very favorable, and of course you can have things that are fast and violent and extremely unfavorable, and so, essential dignity plays a very important role in being able to predict that appropriately. A lot of people are aware to some degree of transits, which is, of course, the relationship of where the planets are now to where they are in your natal chart, and that's a widely used prognostic technique. But one of the -- And that's, you know, the 20th century's made good use of and developed that particular technique. But one of the things that is an absolute staple in any sort of pre-18th century astrology, going back a solid 2000 years are what could be classed as a whole ... Time lord techniques. And so, time lord techniques basically will give you periods of your life that are ruled by a particular planet. And so, you know, for example, the largest scale one is called zodiacal releasing, which is from the second century work of an astrologer named Vettius Valens. And so, in zodiacal releasing, you'll have these big chapters of your life which last between eight and 30 years, and, you know, they're ruled by a particular planet, and so this gives you a tool for looking at biographies, and like, you know, the ... What does it mean to come to the end of a 15-year chapter of your life? It's a huge thing, right? And so, the idea, though, let's say Mars is a 15-year chapter. The idea isn't just that yeah, it's Marsy, it's that's the time period where all the significations and meanings of your natal Mars will become obvious and enfleshed in your life. The time lord techniques are, they're basically, the metaphor I usually use is, they're the mechanism by which the latent becomes apparent in a person's life, with any given planetary position, they're an internal clock like puberty, right? ANDREW: Right. AUSTIN: You know, it's getting ... It's growing hair in new places time; that's just what time it is. And that can be favorable, that can be unfavorable; the environment can facilitate that, the environment can impede that, but it's that time. And so, time lord techniques as a whole give you that clock for when you'll see that part of a person's life unfold. Right cause we, you can look at your chart and you can find all of those spheres within you at any given time, but it's not, excuse me, they're not characterizing the theater of life and what's actually happening equally all the time. It's sort of whose turn is it? So that provides a whole perspective on a chart and life, and I would say is essential to making even reasonably accurate ... It's essential to making consistently accurate predictions about what a time period will be like for someone. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. That's fascinating because we all have these pieces, right? But when are they active, and what does that mean? And what does it mean to have something that's active later in life than earlier, whatever, right, because you're not tied to, if I understand you correctly, they're not tied to exactly the same way that everybody's Saturn return is at roughly the same time, they're tied to different patterns, right? AUSTIN: Exactly. Exactly. ANDREW: And so hence why somebody peaks early or peaks late or overcomes obstacles at some point or you know, those things, it's their chart, right? AUSTIN: Or they wake up one day and they're like, you know, I feel like, they're just sort of ... So if you do consulting work, so when you get consulting work sometimes somebody will be like, "yeah, I just, I don't know, I'm doing this and it's fine but I just feel like I'm going somewhere else and I don't know what it is," and consistently, somebody will come to me with that, and it's like, well yeah, you're moving out of a 27-year period into a 30-year period, of course it's going to be kind of disorienting. Like, people can feel those shifts. And that's part of learning astrology and appreciating astrology, is like seeing, oh, this person doesn't know this obscure Roman astrological technique, but what they're telling me is exactly what this says. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AUSTIN: And of course, when you have perfect matches like that, you can be like, well, this technique says exactly that about your life, and we can talk a little bit about, you know we can contrast the nature of where you're coming from and where you're going to, and help you see it more clearly, but there's also, there's something grounding in finding out that it's not just all in your head. If a stranger can do math on the positions of the planets in your birth chart and figure out that you would be in this place emotionally at this time, then it must not just be an eccentricity. You're responding to something deeper. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AUSTIN: You know, the deep weave of the fabric of your own life. ANDREW: Yeah. Well and I think it, I personally love it when people are experiencing that even if they don't have the words for it, right? Because then when you can bring it up with them, whether it's what you're talking about or like, I did a reading for somebody recently and the central card was the Hierophant in their reading, and about halfway through the reading, they're like, "So, I'm going to tell you now, I didn't want to tell you earlier, but like, this card's been coming up for like the last year ALL the time," and we had this big conversation about it, and I was like, "Oh, perfect," which goes with what I was telling them in the beginning which they were arguing with me about, which was "you actually already know everything that's going on here, and exactly what you need to be doing, but let's talk it through and talk about why you're not owning that," you know? AUSTIN: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: And so, like they ... having those moments when you can pinpoint something like that and hand that back to a person is so empowering, right? Because then it takes us back to this place where ... back to the earlier part of this conversation really where we're experiencing these things, and if we're attentive, if we have space in ourselves and our lives where we can feel those things or be mindful of them, then we can do something with them, and even if we don't know what we're doing with them, we can go and find someone to help us do something with them. AUSTIN: Mmmhmm, Mmmhmm, Mmmhmm. Yeah, it's, I think an important part of astrology is really paying attention to the quality of different time periods and realizing that, you know, time is as dramatic a landscape as space ... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AUSTIN: You know that they're, you know, there are times that are hot and dry, and there are those that are cold and wet, and there are, you know, there are those that are abundant and full of life, there are different landscapes, and, you know, if you bring the desert protocol to the meadow, you're going to be out of sync, right? And if you bring the meadow protocol to the desert, you're going to be very unhappy. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. Yeah. And I think that, you know, well, I wonder, were people more living closely with the cycles of nature and the cycles of things. You know, these things make a lot of sense, right? You know, I had the good pleasure of doing ceremony on the same piece of land every month for two years, right? The cycle of, you know, there are those times when I was standing there and there was like a foot of snow and it was blizzarding and I was looking at this tree and doing the ceremony, and there were those times where it was like, you know, so hot, like 35 degrees Celsius, and sunny and clear and standing there looking at those trees, you know, and being in those spaces through all the cycles, I think really can cue us into those planetary changes too, and the way in which the same thing is different at different times. You know and which we -- AUSTIN: Ohhhh. ANDREW: ... have this false continuity of things, which they continue but they're different, right? AUSTIN: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Would you say the same space is different at different times? Or the same place? ANDREW: Yeah. AUSTIN: Like -- I think that's a really nice way to put it. Yeah, and the seasons are the, you know, the place to start with that, for that realization, and then that is most certainly a rabbit hole, cause it goes beyond the seasons. But that -- just living with the seasons teaches you that that is true, that the same place is different at different times, and once you realize that that is the quality, then you can follow that to more subtle levels. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. Yeah. And I also love it when there are options to see the planets themselves and so on. I remember, when I was, maybe 15 years ago, or so, back when Mars was maybe the closest it would be for some time, that sort of zenith of that arc ... AUSTIN: Yeah. ANDREW: And I remember the balcony of my house, we could see it, going across the sky, you know? And we would just go out there and turn off all the lights in the house and watch Mars move and watch the moon move across the sky and the various other things, and you know, it's such an amazing, to be able to sort of sit and connect with those things, you know? AUSTIN: Oh yeah. And you can feel 'em. [phone rings] I'm an asshole. Let me turn my phone off. That was our invocation of Mars calling for disruption. I apologize, giant podcast faux pas, I'm actually so not a phone person that I forget that it's around ... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AUSTIN: Anyway. But yeah, with the light, the visible light of the planets is important. And that's another piece that astrologers have done a really good job recovering over the last 20 years, is making, reminding astrologers that a chart with 12 signs and houses -- and glyphs -- is a very useful thing, but that is an, that is a way of looking at the sky, it's like a decoder ring -- ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AUSTIN: But the sky is primary, right? That is the fundamental and primordial thing, and we can do things with it. And especially if you're doing any sort of energetic or magical work with the planets -- ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AUSTIN: [laughs] It's certainly much more useful to be able to see them and feel them. I mean who hasn't looked up at a full moon and been like "Whoa!" and just gotten a little blast from that? ANDREW: Yeah. AUSTIN: Not just cognitively but energetically, you're like "Ooooookay!" That is strong drink, sir! ANDREW: Mmmhmm. Well and just like that you know you see the -- you know, it's on the horizon there, when the moon's coming up over the horizon it's huge, and you don't expect it to be that size, where the colors are different and all these things, you know? Yeah. AUSTIN: Yeah, and that's -- yeah, that's in a sense the root of astrology, but sometimes, when a tree grows tall enough, the little flowers haven't had a chance to meet the root, or don't realize what's feeding them, and so, one of -- it's interesting astrology a lot -- in a way that's almost parallel to magic -- has benefitted immensely from a surfeit of translations of older works. You know, we have, you know most of the 2100 or so years of the astrological tradition in textual form and available now for the first time in a very long time. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AUSTIN: And so-- ANDREW: And that's a profound depth of history, right? You know, like, people come to tarot and be like, oh, it's from wherever, and like, yeah, it's not that old. But astrology's that old, right? AUSTIN: Well, and yeah, that is, to that 2100-year-old figure, that is the age of pretty much exactly the same system that people are using in the 20th century, people in the 20th century are missing some pieces, you know, cause things don't necessarily move in an evolutionary manner, right? It's not better every year -- ANDREW: Sure. AUSTIN: It's, you know, things get lost in transmission, things get added, things get lost again. But that core signs, houses, planets, aspects, angles, is there 2100 years ago. And, you know, a magical and prognostic relationship to the sky of course has to predate that immensely. If we're going to follow that, we're going to end up at a time depth that is so far beyond written documentation. ANDREW: Yeah. AUSTIN: And so, you know, astrology's benefited immensely from recovering its own history, which can, which, you know, and sometimes, and you've probably seen this in magicland, where people recover a piece of history, and they're like, "Oh, well you have to do it like the Hygromanteia. Everything you're doing in a Golden Dawn-style lodge is incorrect because this older thing says something different. Right? There's that sort of cranky traditionalist approach, and we get, we have, we certainly have some of that in astrology, but you know, as long as we can avoid that excess, it helps not only does it give us access to quite literally the wisdom of our ancestors in a tradition, but it can also contextualize new developments, you're like, "Oh, I think, this other technique, I came up with this new technique," well, now you have a context for that, and you can see examples using the same logic from different traditions, and so properly rated, the tomb is fertile soil for new life. ANDREW: Yeah. If you approach this stuff with curiosity, as opposed to like with the fervor of fanaticism, or the dismissiveness of what you're doing, then what can be fruitful will really emerge, right? AUSTIN: Yeah. ANDREW: Oh, yeah, you know what, let's bring back this piece. Let's try this for some time and see what happens, right? AUSTIN: Yeah, yeah, I mean, reconstruction is also inherently experimental, I think? ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AUSTIN: It can be approached with dogmatic fervor, but you don't know what's going to happen when you perfect the reconstruction. You can hope that it'll be a better version of the thing that you're already doing, but you literally don't know because you've never done it. You know, you've never -- one of the metaphors Gordon White likes to use for some elements of magic is that it's, you know, it's like plans to build an alien spaceship? ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AUSTIN: You know, it's alien technology, and the instructions for how to build it are all in the book, but you won't know what it's like to fly that thing or what it's really gonna do until you put it back together. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AUSTIN: And you know, astrology, I would say, especially from our point of view in the contemporary West, very much alien technology. It implies an entire worldview and thinking and mechanics that are alien. ANDREW: Yeah, I think, that's interesting. So, one of my biggest magical focuses recently has been centered around leaving the earth, as sort of a notion, right? AUSTIN: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: And coinciding with that, I've been collecting meteorites and working with meteorites, as a sort of energetic connection to this sort of interstellar traveler, right? AUSTIN: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: That idea of, "I need to go somewhere else and I need to be somewhere bigger," is the notion that I often come back to, but it's exactly that, I have no idea what exactly that means, right? And I don't really know what that technology is going to be like in action, and as I've been doing it over the last six or eight months and working with these things, I'm noticing the changes and some of them are not at all what I would have expected, right? You know, obviously I'm not actually leaving the Earth, or you know, so on, but I'm trying to use this as a metaphor and a model for changing consciousness, and you know, it really, it's fascinating how that makes pathways to ideas that never even existed, and it's amazing what comes along for the ride. Oh, you know what, I don't remember putting that in the hold, but I guess that is part of the journey, then, right? AUSTIN: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. On a general note, it seems like the stellar and perhaps even the interstellar as a layer of the real has been beckoning to the human over the last couple years -- ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AUSTIN: I've felt increasingly drawn to work with the stellar layer of astrology and astrological magic and it did things, exposing myself to that radiation did some interesting things. [laughs] ANDREW: Fair enough. So, what does the stellar or the intergalactic mean in terms of astrology, like? AUSTIN: So, on a really simple level, but very important level, the planets move, and the stars don't. From our point of view. And certainly, you know, the planets are, they're racing around the sun, and first they're against this stellar backdrop, and now they're in line with that star, and you know, that's what planet means. The Greek root for planet means wanderer. It's a wandering star as opposed to a fixed star. And the planets are also quite literally subservient to the sun, to our star, they are all once pieces of the same undifferentiated matter, and they, you know, they obey the sun in motion and are fed by its light. Right? ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AUSTIN: So, we're dealing with, you know, something, we're dealing with the children of stars rather than stars. ANDREW: Yeah. AUSTIN: Whereas each of the stars whose light reaches into our system is its own sovereign; it's its own parent. If we're looking on a ... just on a physical level at ranks of beings in the physical world, there's nothing really beyond stars. Maybe black holes? I don't know. Their nature is still illusive. But like stars are the biggest things, they're the biggest distinct beings or entities. ANDREW: Yeah. AUSTIN: And, so, what's interesting is the stars are considered ... So, if we look at the Picatrix, which is, for people who aren't familiar with it, the big book of astrological magic ... ANDREW: Yeah. AUSTIN: It's an 11th century, originally written in Arabic, translated and modified a little bit, showed up in Latin a few centuries later and has been tremendously influential. You know, so the Picatrix, when talking about the intersection between stellar and planetary, says that you know if you want something to, you know if you're doing a working, right, and you want the pattern that you're impressing into the world to be enduring, and you know, eternal, enduring to not just be a quick change or a difference next month, that you then align, you align the power of a star and a planet. You let that star manifest through that planet. You get -- the planet is like the lens that brings it into our system, but the star is going to provide a higher-octane laser with which to etch a pattern into life. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AUSTIN: Anyway, there's so much to talk about with stars. ANDREW: Not un -- not dissimilar in some ways to using a god to come through a planet or using, you know, you're lining up those other energies and then you are creating a bigger vibration or power or possibility through them, right? AUSTIN: Exactly. Well and that's the art, the traditional astrological talismanic art, is you have the planet, right? and that is, we can see that as one link on a chain of being, but you don't just, you know, you don't just heat up that planet, you have the words that you speak, the way that you're dressed, as well as the way that you speak, should all be of the same nature, your surroundings ideally should be of the same nature, and the material you make the talisman of should be a representation of the same nature at the level of stone, right? The incense should be made of plants that are of the same nature at the vegetative level, right? And, you know, basically, when the art is perfect, everything at every point in the chain of being, you know, from the unnamable all the way down to the dirt beneath your feet should be exactly of one nature, and that's, you know, there's a huge difference experientially and results-wise when you bring every level to bear on making -- impressing a change into reality. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AUSTIN: So, you know... whereas, you can get away with not having the incense, or just doing a paper talisman instead of stone, and you know, maybe having the planet like, not in the best condition, you can do stuff, and stuff'll happen, but it's when, it's when you have, it's in a sense on every level the same reality as far as you know. And it's all tuned to the same, you know, you get that pow. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. Cause I mean, necessity wins out when you have to do something today for something tomorrow, that's the end of the conversation, just do the thing, right? AUSTIN: Well and, what I would say, cause again I've been teaching this material for the first time, traditional astrological talismanic magic is absolutely not emergency magic. It's making lasting permanent life-altering changes. It's like building -- it's literally carving a stone, and it's carving the stone of your life. It's building a temple. It's building the pyramids. It's big and lasting, and so you can actually fuck yourself up pretty good if you use that protocol when the elements aren't aligned very well, because you'll impress really deeply into, you know, into the talisman, a pattern that might be good enough for tomorrow, but you don't want to let that pattern colonize your life. You know, some of my sort of hard core astro-talismanic friends, all of us have stories ranging from horrible to hilarious about when we thought this was good enough and made it anyway and we knew we were wrong. Like a friend of mine told me a story about how she made this fixed star talisman, and basically there are a lot of things that are good about the star, but if you look at the lore, there's this association with wounded feet ... ANDREW: Okay. AUSTIN: And then, she picked a time where ... she picked a time to work that star where Mars was extremely prominent and configured to that star, and she got ... and she was wearing the talisman for a couple weeks, and all the good things that are associated with that talisman happened, and she fell down the stairs and couldn't walk properly for six months. ANDREW: Right. AUSTIN: And that wasn't what she asked for, it's just that that's what that moment in time could provide. And if, you know, if she just did a sort of like, more of a petition, like a quickie spell, to that star, just got enough juice to, you know, move that brick three feet over, or to have the energy to do, you know, whatever labors were demanded over the next week wouldn't have had that, but with the full on talismanic art, you're impressing that pattern really deeply, and you'll get the pieces of that moment in time that you didn't ask for but are part of it anyway. ANDREW: You get the whole picture. AUSTIN: Yeah. And that's why the rules are so picky. You can be like, yeah, but what if I have to? Then don't do a talisman, don't do that style of talisman, do a planetary position, you can do that, it'll work. ANDREW: Go to the Picatrix and call somebody up, and be like, "hey, come and help me with this thing for a few days," whatever. AUSTIN: Yeah. Exactly. I do micro-planetary magic every day. You know I'll heat up the altar, I've got little informal planetary altars all around my office and house, and so you know during my ten minutes of just, like, checking in and tasting the brew, I might do a little thing to nudge something, cause that's all I need, and I don't need a lot of power to nudge it. You don't need to go full talisman for most things. ANDREW: Yeah. Yeah. I had Jason Miller on recently and we were talking about, don't do emergency, try not to let it get to emergency magic level, cause that sort of stuff always comes up at some point in our lives, but let's have relationships, let's be in the magic, let's live the magic, let's be in the flow of the magic and work with that, and hopefully we'll be in that place where things become required. And like you say those little adjustments, right? AUSTIN: Yeah. Always steering? It's funny that you bring Jason up, because, so, I absolutely have to plug my book that's coming out? Because -- I say mine, but there are eleven other authors. I coedited it -- it feels like my baby, but, you know, even a baby is not your possession, right? Although one does tend to be possessive. So, this is an anthology of essays about astrological magic. It's going to be -- it's being published by Three Hands Press; I coedited it with Daniel Schulke, and it's got an essay by me on the fixed stars, and Daniel on the planetary viscera of witchcraft, which is a wonderful meditation, I had the pleasure of editing that recently. But Jason is also one of the contributors. And I brought Jason on for exactly what he delivered, which is you know, okay, when the stars aren't right, what can you do? How can you maybe get something that looks Venusian from Mars? You know, it's that practical, you know, getting into it, I brought him into it for the nuances of practice and how, the better you understand the planets, the more you can do with any one sphere, and he gave the example of how, there's a person who's having trouble with their love life, and all the Venus work in the world wasn't really changing things, but when Mars got brought on, and the focal point was the courage to face rejection, and the willingness to assert oneself, then everything clicked in, right? And so, we can say, relationships are Venusian, and that's true, but if when we're trying to untangle a particular knot, sometimes, in that particular case, it was Mars that needed to be tugged on, not Venus. And then, so, what I tried to do with the contributors that I invited was to provide both a historical overview and also to get people to articulate the traditional principles, and there are several people who did that really well, and then I also wanted -- I'd say the other half are about working with that material, and what you discover in practice, and what are maybe other ways of looking at things, what are -- how shall we say -- what are details of practice that aren't covered in thousand year old books, and what comes up along the way, and so, I believe at this point that we did a really nice job of sort of bridging the present, past, and future. But that will be up to the reader to decide. So that's called -- [cross talking 00:47:57] AUSTIN: Yeah, I'm looking forward to it. It took a long time! [laughs] So I'm rather looking forward to its publication. It should be out in May and is called The Celestial Art. ANDREW: The Celestial Art. Lovely. Well, maybe this is a good point to -- I think that I could spend all day talking with you about these things, but maybe we should wrap this up here for now, and why don't you tell people where they should come and hang out with you? You have a great newsletter, and stuff like that, so, yeah, where are you? AUSTIN: Yeah. So, I'm at myname.com, I'm at AustinCoppock.com, and I offer online classes, both live and as well as the library of past material, I write on a -- not a weekly but a decanly basis, I wrote a book on the decans, or the division of sky and time into 36, and I've started doing my astrological column on that pattern rather than the weekly as an experiment. And I also write a short paragraph about every day's astrology, just a little bit about okay, here's what's in the air at a given time, and so yeah, you'll be able to find all my stuff there, and I'm on Facebook, I'm on Twitter. I didn't quite make it onto Instagram or anything that came after Twitter. I'm at that age where I'd adapted enough and began to ossify and dry out and wither. ANDREW: [laughing] AUSTIN: I was like, I can't do any more of this! Another one! ANDREW: There's another astrological endeavor, right? Which signs and or placements give people predilection for one platform over another? Because I think Instagram is the pinnacle of social media and the best thing ever, so. AUSTIN: That -- I -- well what I was going to say is that totally -- we could say it's definitely fiery -- ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AUSTIN: Right, it's not as textual? It's more image based, it's a little bit more dynamic, yeah, and so you said you were ... you sun was in Sagitarrius and Mars in Aries? ANDREW: Yeah. AUSTIN: That's a great start for fire! [laughs] ANDREW: For sure. AUSTIN: If nothing else is in fire then you are more than sufficiently enflamed. ANDREW: My ascendant is in Leo, and yeah, I've got a bunch of, a pile of stuff in Sagittarius, so, yeah -- AUSTIN: Okay! [laughs] ANDREW: I got gallons of fire, yeah, for sure! AUSTIN: I'm more water than anything else -- ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AUSTIN: So, I don't, yeah, Instagram seems a little loud for me, visually and otherwise. [laughing] ANDREW: Fair enough, fair enough. Well, thank you so much for making the time today, Austin, it's been a real pleasure. AUSTIN: Yeah, it has. Yeah. I enjoyed it.
The Hermit's Lamp Podcast - A place for witches, hermits, mystics, healers, and seekers
This week I'm joined by the one and only Ty Shaw. We dive deep into our connections with the Orishas and Ty talks us through some of her sexual empowerment work and how they all connect. Her work covers old traditions and new traditions, and her dedication to her practise is inspiring. This is one not to be missed! Connect with Ty through her website. If you are interested in supporting this podcast though our Patreon you can do so here. If you want more of this in your life you can subscribe by RSS , iTunes, Stitcher, or email. Thanks for listening! If you dig this please subscribe and share with those who would like it. Andrew transcription ANDREW: Welcome to another installment of The Hermit's Lamp podcast. I am hanging out today with Ty Shaw, who is a fascinating human being. She practices a bunch of different traditions, and brings a lot of, you know, experience in a lot of different ways through life and spirituality to the conversation today. So, for folks who don't know who you are, Ty, why don't you introduce yourself? What -- Who are you and what are you about? TY: Oh, my god. Ooh child. Well, I am Ty Shaw, like you just said, and what am I about? I'm a Iyalorisa, palera Mambo, and a lot of other things, oh iyanifa, that's the most recent one! Always forget to list that one! ANDREW: Right. TY: And basically, what I have been doing is working with people within the tradition. I was obviously with my spiritual house, and the various, you know, people that I service in my communities, but my sort of day job now is in the space of sacred sexuality coaching, intimacy coaching, and really bringing, particularly, well, people in general, but women in particular, in alignment with sort of their spirituality and their sexuality, and kind of bridging that gap, and working in a space where people understand that when you talk about sacred sexuality that you don't have to look to India or to China or to Japan or to these other places, that we do have concepts of sacred sexuality from an African context ... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. TY: If you're willing to actually look at what we're doing and examine what we're doing. ANDREW: All right. Well, why don't you enlighten us on that? Because I know, you know, being a babalocha, right, you know? That sex, at least sex in general is very, we keep that inside of the Orisha tradition, you know, not inside of the tradition, but outside of the relationships and the connections there, you know, and people are often like, very slow to even get into conversations like that, because there is such an emphasis on having proper relationships and where those lines are ... TY: Right. ANDREW: So, where does that come from in what your experiences are for you? TY: Well, that's exactly why I do this work. Because our traditions are very conservative in how they look at sex ... ANDREW: Yeah. TY: Which to me, is not only counterproductive but contradictory, because everything we do mimics a sexual act on some level. If we want to take, say the babalawo for example, when the oluwo is pounding ikin, the oluwo is mimicking copulation, such that ikin, or odu, can give birth. When we go into the igbodú and we want to birth a new priest in the process of a kariocha, we are using the leads, singing the songs, doing the invocations ... ANDREW: Sure. TY: To get certain elements to give birth. You know, if we're sitting on the mat and we're divining with the odun and odí falls, or some iteration of oché, or something out of ogunda falls, we're going to be talking some sexual shit. [laughs] You know what I'm saying? ANDREW: I do! TY: Can you talk -- we deal with deities who cover these specific things. And, we deal with energy. We're priests. We understand that, just from a basic scientific perspective, that energy is neither created nor destroyed. It's how it's directed. So that means there is no difference between spiritual energy and sexual energy. And the fact that we vibrate on a different level as priests because we actively cultivate our energy -- we're cultivating our sexuality as well. And I think the fact that our traditions are so conservative, and don't allow for these deeper conversations, even though the liturgy, odu, the deities themselves, do speak of these things and act in these ways, because we haven't had these conversations and developed that language, we have what we see now, which is the manifestation of a plethora of, or an abundance rather, of sexual dysfunction, in an out of ritual in an out of the room, and a community of priests who are manipulating energies, but really have no basic concept of what energy is, how it works, and what you're conjuring. [laughs] So that's why I decided to get in that space. ANDREW: Yeah! So, when you're ... because lots of people who listen to this are not going to be practitioners of ATRs, or, you know, diasporic traditions or those things necessarily, let's pull this apart just a little bit more. Because I know exactly what I think you mean -- I mean, you're going to tell me if I'm right -- but -- I think one of the things that we want to make clear, is that some of the dysfunction that I think that you're talking about, I mean there's obviously the people who are having challenges themselves, which is a separate issue, but then there's the sort of dysfunction of people taking advantage of relationships, godparents, or other people who should be obeying a taboo that is like a parent to a child ... TY: Right. ANDREW: You know, or having relationships and using their power and position to take advantage of people. Right? We're talking about these kinds of things, right? TY: Right. Right. ANDREW: Yeah. TY: Well, one thing about that, we're talking about even in our intermittent relationships, we are seeing a lot of abuse coming to the surface, because of Facebook, sexual abuse, women who are being raped by their babalawo husbands, or men that I've encountered in this tradition who come seeking guidance and were molested by a godparent. You know? We have an abundance of people of color, amongst those people of color are women of color, and I personally in my adult life don't know any women of color who haven't experienced sexual abuse or sexual assault. So, we have this abundance of sort of sexual trauma, that comes up in our relationships in so many different ways, whether it's the baggage we bring to the tradition, or whether it's the abuse of power because of the dynamic within the tradition. But we still because of our conservativism, we don't have that conversation. ANDREW: Right. TY: And when we do, it's an accusatory one: You abused me. You did this. You didn't do booze up the bembé. You tried to take my husband. You know. But we don't necessarily have conversations around what the solutions are. What we're going to do about it. How do you fix them? If you're a babalawo that's married, and you have your apetdabe, how are you cultivating that sacred relationship? ANDREW: Mmmhmm. TY: Because that's our version of it! [laughs] You know what I'm saying? In a certain way. On a certain level. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. TY: How are we cultivating our intimate relationships? How does that affect our vibration and our energy and how we cultivate our Ase as priests, and then what does that look like in terms of how do we treat each other in our interpersonal relationships? ANDREW: Sure. And how are we dealing with our own ... I mean, even if we don't have the kinds of traumas you're talking about, you know, we all exist in a culture that, you know, experiences toxic masculinity, and rape culture, and all of these bits and pieces and all sorts of exploitative pieces left over from a long time, in our culture, right? TY: Yes. ANDREW: And how do we look at ourselves and become clear about what is our desire? What is real? How do we communicate? Where does consent fit? TY: Right. ANDREW: You know, all of these things, right? Like these are important pieces ... TY: Yeah. ANDREW: Of cultivating ... Well, I mean, being a decent human being, for one, but like, and certainly being a spiritual human being for another, right? You can't. TY: Yeah. And we can't deal with these forces that again, we're engaging in sort of spiritual sexual acts in the process of giving birth and getting odu to conceive and put something out there that's new, and then appeasing this newborn thing via ebbó. We do these things, but there's a disconnect, there's some sort of cognitive dissonance, you know, between the act and the metaphysical understanding of the act, you know? Mmmhmm. ANDREW: I also think that people don't understand energy, as you kind of said earlier. Right? TY: Yeah, exactly, exactly. ANDREW: You know, one of the things that I noticed when I became a priest was, all sorts of people who started hitting on me who weren't hitting on me before. TY: Yeah, because you were orisha. ANDREW: Right? And I got Shango on my head, right? I mean, that's going to draw some heat, right? And, you know, and the thing is, is that, if I wasn't mindful of it, if some of my elders hadn't said, hey, this is probably going to happen, take it easy about that, then you'd get into all sorts of trouble, right? Because what's going on is those people aren't necessarily attracted to me ... TY: It's that energy! ANDREW: They're feeling that energy, and they want more of that, but we don't understand how to get close to spirit, or how to be intimate with human beings, and not frame that in a sexual context. Right? TY: Or, if it's in a sexual context, that doesn't mean we have to act in a debased way. How about receiving the energy because we are, like Shango is the pillar of virility, male virility, male marknotism, that's his Ase, and it is sexual, there's no way around that. How about we accept that that's what it is, internalize it, and use it for what it does? As opposed to saying, well, I feel arousal, this means I must screw, this means I must ... you know. As opposed to no, these are what vibrations and energy do, and you know that's why I started getting into vibrational medicine, you know, prana, reiki, tantric projection work, because we already have heightened vibrations as a result of having gone through ritual. And ideally, we're cultivating our Ase, cultivating ori, we're developing and uplifting that vibration. But so many priests I would have a conversation with about energy, vibration, how we magnetize it and move, there was just such a lack of understanding, and a lot of times I feel that we're doing ebbó, we're killing chickens, but what you need is a chakra cleanery, what you need is a past life regression, what you need is some spiritual counseling, it's an issue on a base level with your vibration. Which ebbó does address, through the power of sacrifice, but you're still not internalizing that in your vibration. ANDREW: Well, it's like I popped my collar bone out of place, recently, right? And, you know, I went to my osteopath and put it back in place, but the reason I popped it out of place, was cause muscles in my back were out of balance, and that is a physiotherapy thing, and so now I need to be ... you know, and so, and I think that that's true on many levels, right? Spiritual practices can make adjustments ... TY: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: And, in different kinds of spiritual practices, can be that physiotherapy ... TY: Right. ANDREW: But it's rare that one does all of them at the same time, right? You know? It's like you go for a reading with the Orishas, and they're going to, you know, realign your vertebrae, and be like this is where you should be and then you're going to leave, and all those wonky muscles and your habits are going to want to pull you back out of place, right? And whether that's energetic, or your circumstance, or your psychology, or whatever, right? Or the various baggage you're carrying with you? That's all that energy that wants to kind of disalign you again, right? TY: Right. And I think that's one of the major critiques I've had, like if anybody has seen my Facebook videos, I've done a lot of critiquing about what I think is healthy versus what I don't think is healthy, right? ANDREW: Mmmhmm. TY: And in that sort of process, not understanding energy has led this new generation of people that are kind of coming into the tradition with a level of ... how would I say, like a lack of respect for tradition? And in that process, they stereotype and pigeonhole certain energies because there's a fundamental misunderstanding of energy. So, like for example, I see this wave of new women coming into sacred sexuality, and not everyone's a child of Ochún. Because they think, okay, Ochún, sacred whore, sacred prostitute, no idea where that comes from, but this is what they say, and this is what they think, right? When it's like, Ochún, first of all, it's a stereotyping of this energy, because you don't even understand what you're talking about, it's a pigeonholing and it's a limiting of her, because depending on the road, you might be dealing with the crone, you might be dealing with the witch, you might be dealing with the demure healer, you might be dealing with something like Ochún Ibu Kwanda, the warrior. Who ain't got nothing to do with your coquette. [laughs] ANDREW: Yeah, for sure, right? TY: When people don't understand energy, when we don't understand how things work, and we stereotype, and we pigeonhole, we do everybody a disservice ... ANDREW: Yeah. TY: We don't, we don't get access to the thing, you know, that's really going to ... ANDREW: Yeah, I think that, I think it's challenging, because there's such a profound and sort of largely ... If you're outside of the tradition, largely inaccessible depth and diversity that's there, right? TY: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: You know, how many roads of Ochún are there? How many roads of ... you know? You know, this, that, and all those other spirits, right? TY: Right. ANDREW: And what do those things mean, right? TY: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: And what do ... and what if you're dealing with, I mean, you know, if you're dealing with those, or running into those, or if those are the paths or avatars that are sort of engaging with you, it's completely different to have one versus the other, right? TY: Yeah, right. ANDREW: There's the Yemaya who pulls you down to the bottom of the ocean, right? TY: Yep. ANDREW: And leaves you there! TY: And leave y'all! ANDREW: Right. And then there's those other paths that are going to love you and hold you while you cry and pat your back, right? TY: Oh, there's this my path, Achaba, who's just the shady one, who don't want to ... ANDREW: Yeah. Right? TY: You know. There's koha ibun shade .... ANDREW: [laughs] TY: But I love her, I love her. But that's why, like in my work ... Okay, I had become a palera , I became a iyalosha, I became a mom, though I became a iyanifa, and then I was like, well, why do I want to do any of this? What does this mean to me? What does priesting look like for me? ANDREW: Sure. TY: Do I ... Am I going to be able to do it in the way maybe my elders did it? Do I believe in the same things? What is this priesthood thing going to actually play out for me? And I found that in ... And I'm a young santera, you know what I'm saying, so, I mean, I'm 5 in Ocha this year -- no, I'm six. Am I six already? Shit! But anyway. ANDREW: It's really stacking up, right? [laughter] TY: You know, so I'm a baby olosha. Infant. And, in the process of me coming into adulthood as a nealOrisha, growing up and kind of going through adolescence, now, I have to ... I decided to consciously ... consciously move into priesthood. What is this priesthood thing going to look like for me? Where is going to be my medicine? What's going to be my point of departure? And that has always been whole person healing. What am I dealing with? What is Yamaya bringing to my doorstep? And yes, I can solve this with ebbó, but after ebbó, what is going to -- and that creates transformation -- but what's going to last? What's going to stick? What's going to change behavior? You know? And that's when I decided to go ... that my route was really as a healer ... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. TY: Getting into the spiritual development of the person, and then when I was trying to figure out well what healing would look like, outside of energy healing and spiritual cleanings and stuff, what I found is, that what people were lacking was the counsel and a way to really work through trauma, particularly trauma held within the body, of a sexual nature. And our tradition was no exception to that. So, it spoke to me of just the niche, that made sense, that I could kind of slide on into, you know? ANDREW: Mmmhmm. TY: So right now, it sounds like priesting for me is looking like being really woman/Goddess-centered, really witchy, and really focused on long-lasting transformation. ANDREW: Mmm. TY: In or outside of an igbodú or a new set of elekes, or the reception of a new Orisha. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. TY: [laughs] You know what I'm saying? ANDREW: For sure, because so many, you know, I'm also a relatively young olocha, you know, but lots of people who come around for that part of what I do, they, so many of them almost show up with their shopping list, right? They're like, I'm coming to you, I want you to give me my elekes, please confirm that I'm a child of whomever, you know? And like, and so on, and it's like ... I don't know. Like, you know, let's see what happens, right? Whereas, when people come to me in my sort of card reading and you know, that other magical side of my life ... A lot of those things are more like what I think that all of it should be, which is, let's see what's going on, let's talk about what you need, let's work on this, and make that change so that it endures, right? TY: Right. ANDREW: Because it's so easy to, you know, when I made Ocha, Shango basically said to me, it was like, "Hey, welcome, you're here, so go fix your life, cause you've got some things that are messy that you made, and now you gotta go fix em cause Ocha can't do it," and I was like, "All right. Huh. That's not what I was hoping!" [laughs] TY: Right? ANDREW: You know? TY: Shango has a way of just popping that bubble. He kind of gave me something similar, in my Ita, Shango, he came down talking bout "You do not know how to live, and now you need to learn how to live. Learn how to live in this life, or you'll learn how to live in the other," we hear that refrain. You know? ANDREW: Yeah. TY: And I think I had a similar trajectory, like, I love teaching, you know, cards, crystals, all the airy fairy witchy stuff, because even though I had extensively studied African tradition, I studied traditional forms of witchcraft as well. I was a proper neoPlatonist high ceremonial magic type of witch [laughs] for a ... ANDREW: Yeah. TY: [[00:19:10] astrological magic, like, I came from Bea too, so ain't nobody going to get me to leave my cards behind, and none of that, but ... And I felt like there was space for that. Like there were, you know ... And spiritualism gives you that opportunity, right? To bring in anything you want? But, people would come with their shopping list, well I want this, I want to be crowned tomorrow, I need you to take me to Haiti, and then after that take me to Africa, and I want this and I want that, and usually my attitude is like, that's cute, that's what you want, you know, good for you, you are clear on your desires ... ANDREW: Yeah. TY: Which is ... [laughs] What do you actually need? Now that we've gotten through your laundry list, what's actually getting ready to happen here? ANDREW: Yeah. TY: Cause guess what, I don't move, unless Yamaya tells me this is what has to happen. ANDREW: Oh yeah. For sure. TY: [laughing] ANDREW: That piece of ... I don't know what the right word for it is ... understanding ... that the Orishas that sits on our heads, you know, and live with us, that nothing happens without their say so. Something so largely foreign to most people's concepts, right? You know? TY: Yeah. ANDREW: Like I remember, many years ago, I got this reading, and Aleyo was like, "No tattoos for you this year," and I was like, "huh, all right, fair enough, I'll stop," right? I had a bunch of stuff planned and I stopped. And a lot of people couldn't understand how I could be just like, "okay"? Like what if he never says yes again? And I was like, "Well, that's cool, I'll roll with that." But that's so hard for people to roll with, right? You know and because ... I think in part because we're encouraged to be ego-centered in a way that is hard to wrestle with ... TY: Yes. ANDREW: But also because of all these traumas that we've been talking about, right? TY: Yes. ANDREW: How much harder is it for someone to put that kind of trust in somebody, if they have, you know, whatever kinds of traumatic experiences and abuses from people who should be ... who were supposed to be there facilitating them? Parents, priests, guides, whoever, right? TY: You know, I agree with that, because it's about several things. It's about shifting from a very Western individualist self-absorbed ego-centric way of being and moving through the world, which I'm not even judging, because those are actual tools we need to survive in the West. ANDREW: Sure. TY: [laughs] Okay? A certain amount of selfishness is necessary for your survival in this place. However, it does create a learning gap. Because you kind of have to cross that bridge to understand how everything functions in this particular tradition. And the unique thing about this tradition is that it's not just all this ... I think we also get really idealistic and we think that we have all these proper African values, and we don't. We have diaspora values, because if you rob them [22:09?] of cultural nuances they don't recognize in Africa. They're not doing that. And we have to separate the caricature of Africa that we have, this ideal ... this, you know, ideal, you know, Africa that doesn't exist. What we're dealing with is post-colonial Africa, that has just as much white supremacist misanthropic bullshit as any one of us. ANDREW: Yeah. Well and also, you know, which part of Africa are we talking about, right? You know? Are we talking about ... TY: Thank you! Thank you! ANDREW: Are we talking about, you know, Ifé, are we talking about the Congo, are we talking about wherever, like, you know, I mean ... TY: Right. Right. ANDREW: I know people come in and they're like "well, you know, I was talking to a Sengoma, and that's exactly like what you do," and I'm like, "No, not really," like, in a general way it's animist and whatever, but other than that, no, it's not the same at all, right? TY: Right. And that's a problem. they think of Africa as a monolith, as one like homogenous sort of thing. They don't understand the level of nuance. And this is why I've always battled these faulty notions and assertions of purity in this tradition and who's more pure, who has the right way, who's the closest to the root? And it's like, nobody, because what is properly African is that we've always assimilated, and brought in what works, and transformed and adapted. And if you go to Nigeria right now, what they're doing in Ejife, is not what they're doing in Oyo, is not what they're doing in Abayokuda, is not what they're doing in Oshopo. They're all doing something different! Compound to compound, region to region! Because there's always been sort of that gap to allow for spirit, to allow for adaptability, that's how we learn. ANDREW: Well, and I think that that's the power of lineage, right? You know? TY: Sure. ANDREW: Like, what you're going to do, you can't do anything ... TY: Yeah. ANDREW: But you can do anything that fits within the bounds of your lineage, right? TY: Exactly. ANDREW: And that's the real meaning of, like, oh, in my house we do this, it's like, you know, lots of people use that as a justification for what they don't know or to just do whatever they feel like, or be like, oh, I can't get that, so you know in my house now, now we give turkeys instead of chickens, cause they're easier to get, or whatever, right? And it's not ... that's not valid, right? What's valid is understanding what's going on within your lineage, and then honoring and working with that, because that is something, those are the spirits that we're calling on to work, right? You know, in one way or another. TY: I've always been a bit of a lineage snob. Particularly in this day and age where people feel that they can self-initiate and they can get their head marked via tarot, and they can get initiated online, this, because, the thing about lineage, right, when I ... I try to explain this to new people, it's like if you're a Christian it doesn't mean that you all believe the same thing, you might be a 7th Day Adventist, you might be a Baptist, there are denominations here. And I feel that we've gotten to the point in our traditions where we have denominations, okay? And within each denomination, lineage becomes important because that's going to imply style, technique, and approach. Okay? We may all believe certain things, but how it plays out, how it looks in ritual, our approach to ritual, technique, that's going to be based on lineage. I think Palo is a great example of that. When you tell me the ramen, you tell me the house, now I know what kind of Palo you do. Because that's what lineage dictates. What types of agreements do you have with the forces you have the ability to access and conjure, and what do your ceremonies look like? Because everything outside of ceremony, ritual, and the protocols associated with them, that's what we dictate and what we have a blueprint for. Everything outside of that is between you and your spirit. You got to work that out! And that's why lineage gives you the blueprint, right, for how ritual, what makes you a certain thing, what makes another thing a thing, then outside of that, that's all you, boo! ANDREW: Yeah, for sure, right? ANDREW: It's all about getting to know what your particular Orishas like and want, right, you know? I mean, cause people always want to do big ceremonies, and more often than not, you know, if I cook a little amala ila for Shango, he's gonna eat up and get whatever I want, right? You know? Like, it's easy, once you sit and listen. Once you understand and build that connection. But, you know, but that quest for purity or truth or like, the solution, you know, it's not always bigger and better things, it's learn to work what you have, right? And then apply that and then you can go from there. TY: And insofar as learning to work what you have is concerned, I think that's another challenge, because one of the main critiques I sort of have of our traditions right now is that I don't think people are practicing African tradition or African-inspired tradition. I feel like they're Christians in elekes. Because they kind of bring all their Christianity and dress it up in nice African fabric and put beads on it, but it's still Christianity. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. TY: And I find that that is especially true with how we understand and approach Orisha. Sometimes our relationship and approach to Orisha is devotional, and sometimes it's not. I'm not always on my knees begging like I'm praying to the Lord, sometimes I'm sending Orisha on a mission, and I think people have forgotten that, and I see that that disconnect comes in mostly since the African American involvement in Orisha tradition. The reason why I say that is because [00:27:56--garbled] coming up with these older Cubans, Puerto Ricans ... I have seen them be like hiding drugs in Ocha, or getting a custom Elegua out cause they want some shit to go down or they busting somebody outta jail, it wasn't this elitist thing, and it wasn't so ... the level of Christianized judgement, and this just pray to Orisha and give agomu, I don't work with Uheria, that's very different, because we have songs, we have liturgy that calls us powerful sorcerers and sorceresses, and how we work with Orisha. I think that we have to reexamine what our relationship is. Is it this Christianized devotion? Or sometimes do you work with Orisha like any other sorcerer in any other tradition? And what are these ideas that we're bringing in that are foreign and counter-productive? Because if you are just purely devotional, right? and you just throw in so that you can appease Orisha and get on your knees, do you really know what that Orisha likes and how it could work for you or how you could get up and make something pop when you need it? Do you really know that? Or do you know how to appease Jesus on Sunday and beg? And does that make you a priest? Or does that make you a slave to some spirit? And you call it Ocha? ANDREW: Mmm. Well. I had the, I think, good fortune, it's one of the best gifts that I think my parents gave me, which was to not be raised with anything. So, religion was nonexistent in my household. Which, you know, I think was tremendously liberating compared to where a lot of people come from when they come into these things, right? And I think that this question of what is, what does it mean to exist with a magical religion, right? TY: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: Is something that is quite different than what a lot of people expect or understand, right? And it's neither as simple, at least in my experience, as "Hey, dude, I was sitting on the couch playing video games all month and I need some like money for rent, hook me up," right? TY: Right. ANDREW: That doesn't necessarily work either, right? I mean, maybe? Maybe the first time, maybe sometimes. Or you know, “bust me out of jail,” or whatever ... TY: Of course, there's spontaneity. Right. ANDREW: But it's also not. TY: Yeah. ANDREW: Not that either, right? You know? And sort of this distinction between the things that we want and need to live in this world and live in this life, right? TY: Uh huh. ANDREW: I mean, they are there to facilitate those things. TY: Right. ANDREW: And -- TY: I think it -- ANDREW: Go ahead. TY: No, no, I'm sorry, go ahead. ANDREW: Well, I was going to say, and, they are there cause they can see how we can free ourselves from the problems we make for ourselves, or the problems other people bring, and sort of move beyond them, or move and minimize them as we go through life, right? Because ... TY: Yes. ANDREW: You know, life is complicated, right? TY: It's the battle of the Osobos and the Iré, right? All these forces of negativity that exist in the world on many levels ... ANDREW: Right. ANDREW: And some of those come from us, too, right? And learning to overcome those ones that are ... Not in a "we're all sinners" kind of way, like we've all got baggage, we've all got tendencies, maybe we're lazy, maybe we're too greedy, maybe we're hateful or whatever, and those things undermine our lives, and we need to ... you know, it's that balance of both, I think, right. TY: Right. ANDREW: Cause literally people come into the shop and "I need you to Santeria somebody," and I'm like, "whatever, “Dude, I don't even know what you mean, but no." Like, forget it? You know? yeah. TY: I see -- I mean, I see your point. I guess what -- not I guess -- one of the things I'm resistant to is elitism in this tradition. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. TY: Because it has become elitist on a number of levels just because of the price point, the introduction of just the academia, you know, into this? So, there's also an intellectual elitism here ... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. TY: And with that elitism, there's been sort of this political attempt to Christianize in terms of its values, and what we do, we don't do that, and it's like, um, but we do! Because I remember very distinctly being called for those basement ochas that we had to do in an emergency cause somebody was going to jail, or, you know, [laughs] somebody has some illness, and it was a bunch of poor people in that ocha in a project apartment saving somebody's life. I remember when it wasn't elitist. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. TY: You know? And there wasn't any shame around doing an obra versus an ebbó. And how I'm distinguishing those terms, when I say an obra, a work, something that you don't throw for, that you go, you put it together, and you tell Orisha, versus ebbó that comes out of a divination and Orisha done told you! ANDREW: Mmmhmm. TY: I remember that, there being a distinction and watching santeros move in that way. I remember that there wasn't the stigma and the shame around, yo, maybe I do need to come up with my rent cause I'm getting put out of my house and I need to go to Elegua to open a door. ANDREW: Yeah. TY: I remember because there was no stigma around that. ANDREW: Well and, I hope I didn't come across wrong, because I think there should be no shame. Right? We are all where we're at, and we're all in places and life is complex and variable and many things happen, right? TY: Right. ANDREW: And, you know? There are those times when we need to make those things, or to, you know, kick 'em in the pants a little bit and be like, "Elegua, dude, rent's due on the first, it better be in my account before that, my friend, it needs to happen, or we're all in on the street," right? or whatever, and I think there should never be any shame in any of that or in needing healing or, you know. I mean, all of those things, I think that we're all human and we all need those things all the time and we'd be foolish to think that that's not going to be the case, right? But I also do agree that there's a tendency to try and niceify, right? You know? TY: Yep. You say it even more in Nigeria. You see it even more in the Nigerian priests, with this attempt at, you know, Christianizing Ifa because of the onslaught of just attack from Muslim- and Christian-kind in Nigeria. ANDREW: Sure. Right? And you know, and it's ... you see it in a lot of, you know, more fringe places, right, you see it in the LGBT community, right, and all those extra letters too, where, it's like, well, look, we're just like you, we're this way, we're that way, and that's true for some people, and for other people it's not, right? And I think that those kinds of diversity ... it doesn't benefit anybody either to leverage one group down so that we could sort of be up, right? You know in the way that like, historically Palo and Lucumí traditions went through that conflict, right? You know, there's the historical divide, right? TY: Well, still. ANDREW: Well still, but like, you know, there were specific historical events where, you know it was like all of a sudden, well, you know, we'll throw the Palo community under the bus for this ... TY: Yeah. ANDREW: And show how legitimate and good we are, right? TY: And they're still doing it. I was very resistant to making Ocha for a lot of years, because I was palera for a long time before I became an olosha. ANDREW: Yeah. TY: And one of the things that I've [35:39--inaudible]... that I was really resistant about, was what I call Lucumí-, or Yoruba-centric [distortion/inaudible at 00:35:51]. You know, Yorubas tend to posit themselves at the top of this whole priest -- overstep their boundaries, an Orisha priest telling you, you have abatowa crown, get rid of your nganga. How? Why is it you feel that your tradition gives you the right to tell somebody what can and can't happen in a completely separate practice? Okay? And that's your eccentric elitism. That's Lucumí-centric elitism. And we see it because Lucumí is the most expensive initiation, that people feel like once they get crowned they've arrived, honey, they got the big crown ... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. TY: And it perpetuates this contention. It also perpetuates a lot of misinformation. Like Cholla is not Ochún. She will never be Ochún. Saramanda is not Ogun. Nusera is not Elegua. [laughs] You understand what I'm saying? ANDREW: Yeah. Well and I think it's part of that desire or ignorance that promotes generalization, right? You know? TY: Yes. ANDREW: I mean, it's not 100% true, but I often sort of think, if there's an odu that says you shouldn't do that, then that means there's not a general prohibition against it because it's required to come up, right? And I mean, it's a little too cut and dry maybe, but I think there are so many things where people want to sort of posit a set of rules, like obatala should never drink, you know? TY: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: These people are going to be this way, this spirit's going to be that way, once you're a priest you should never do whatever again, and it's not that way, you know? It doesn't need to be that way. TY: Right. ANDREW: And that is that sort of stereotyping and you know, sort of modeling ideas that are not universal ... TY: Yes. ANDREW: But people want to make them, either because it gives them power, or cause they don't know better, right? TY: Yes. And in some cases, it's just superstitious and unnecessary. Like, I'll give you an example. I went to an Orisha birthday, to go see someone's Orisha, and you know in the process of ocha birthdays, we're sitting, we're gossip, we're talking shit. We get into a conversation about firearms, right? Because I don't go nowhere unarmed, okay? I'm a black woman living in the USA. I'm going to be ... if you see me, you're going to see ... ANDREW: I've seen your Instagram! TY: [laughs] You know, so ... we were talking about firearms, and there was a priest that was much older than me, I feel like she was in her 20s, and she was like, well you know, none of us carry weapons, we've all blunted all of the knives in our house because many of us have ogun [garbled at 00:38:38] in our Ita, and we give that over to Ogun. And I was like Er? What the hell does that have to do with your ability to protect yourself? Number one, did ogunda come in some harsh osogbo that told you to deal with the entire house, and what does any of that have to do with my basic human right to defend myself? ANDREW: Mmmhmm. TY: And then her response was, you know, well [inaudible--some missing audio? at 00:39:07] Ogun, I'm not going to take on Ogun's job, but I'm going to tell you, I'm going to tell you, I'm going to tell you, there's nothing he could have ever told me in Ita that would have had me unarmed for the rest of my life, not as a single mother, hell no. There is nothing you could have told ME that would have made me put down my firearms. And there was nothing that I heard her say out of her Ita that made any of that make sense to me. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. TY: That sounded crazy. But I hear this level of superstitious ignorance that manifests in general taboos for entire houses, all the time. Now suddenly one person's Ita is everybody's Ita. It's crazy! ANDREW: Sure. Well and I see -- I've seen that prohibition with that piece of advice come out in a reading for somebody, and it didn't surprise me, cause that relationship in that house was on the edge of exploding into physical conflict maybe, right? TY: Right. ANDREW: And so, like there are times when that stuff can come out and should come out, but that's where you gotta look at your life and see what's going on, right? Like I -- Somebody came to me for a reading and you know, it was one of those like, hey, the Orishas love you, hugs and kisses, see you later, right? And it was like, okay, when should I get initiated? And I was like, why? TY: Cause you're not about that. Right. ANDREW: “Are you sick? Are you broke? Are you ... like, what's going on?” And they're like, “No.” I'm like, "You're good, you don't need it, don't worry about it." You know? So, I think that that, yeah, it's where you need to be understanding about yourself and your relationship, right? TY: Yes, yes, and move beyond superstition. I think that we have a very sophisticated methodology and system of divination that doesn't give us ... we don't have the burden of having to have superstition. Or even faith, to a certain extent. We do divination, we do ebbó, ebbó works. [laughs] We trust that it works because we've seen in work. You know? We have divination and confirmation. ANDREW: Sure. TY: Which is one of the reasons why I like this tradition. Cause I ain't got to be believing in no pie in the sky! You do divination, you do the ebbó! [laughs] ANDREW: As Crowley puts it, right? TY: Right, right! ANDREW: As Crowley puts it in one of his books, success is your proof, right? That's it. Certainty, not faith, right? TY: Ase, and I've never done well with faith. Which is why Palo and Vodou make me happy, you do something, something happens. ANDREW: Right. TY: [laughs] You know? So. It's all of that, all of it. ANDREW: So, I have a question for you about the intimacy counseling and the work that you're doing with people, right? So, is that a energetic thing? Is that a spiritual practice? Is that like -- Where do the intersection ... Cause I'm always curious with people who practice a bunch of different things and then have outside people come and engage that, right? TY: Yeah. ANDREW: Are you engaging people within their own practices? Are they coming to you for practices? How does that look and work for you? TY: So, usually, it depends. People who have no relation to this practice but just need sex and intimacy coaching usually look like regular old clients. They book an appointment, we have some talk therapy, and then I do a healing. That healing may be energetic, like in tantric projection work or energy work that they need to clear out some trauma. It may be a past life regression or some spiritual cord that I have to cut cause of what they're dealing with. It may be physical, because as a somatic sex educator, we also guide people through certain body practices, so for example, if I have a person who is ashamed of their body as a result of trauma, has never masturbated. I might do guided coached masturbation, or I might have a couple who want to reinvigorate their sex life and they want to learn new techniques, so I'll guide them through it. So that's where the body-based therapy might come in. Someone in the tradition, it will probably start with some type of spiritual reading and see what's happening with you spiritually and then how that plays out in your life in the form of coaching. And the sex tends to be, especially in the tradition, talk therapy only. It comes out in my spiritual counseling, so like for example, I might do a divination, and let's say I see a lot of odí falling, and I know that there might be some addiction stuff, or some sexual trauma, some abuse, some other things, that that letter would point to. Well, I'll do the ebbó, I'll get that out of the way, but then after that I'm going to book a spiritual counseling session, and let's talk about what made that manifest on that, and what really needs to happen with you energetically and spiritually and hold space for that. And sometimes that is talk therapy around their sexual trauma, because of course, that letter fell and that oftentimes points to rape or molestation or all kinds of stuff, right? ANDREW: Sure. TY: In addition to that, as a tantrica, when I lead workshops with people, mostly single women or couples, they're looking to bring the sacred into their bedroom in a certain way. In terms of my tantra training, I came through, I'm an initiated tantric, I was initiated in the Shri Vidya lineage, a Debi Kudarum, very goddess-centered, and to me, it ain't nothing but some Indian Palo honey, I don't know, cause you know, they with them goddesses, they put out them yantras, honey and you get to chant and then that thing MOVES, okay, but in addition to Shri Vidya tantra, I studied Ipsaun tantra, Shakti pat, I received several activations, and I am now studying grand trine active shamanistic tantra. So, I will teach them how to do tantric projection, like no hands, no touch, energy orgasms, healing the body and the trauma energetically, and even just tantric lovemaking, tantric interaction. And I've found that people in this tradition, even though the two don't overlap, they are very interested in it, because again, we don't have a space to have these conversations. We don't have a way of talking about how we can relate in a spiritual manner [laughs] that, you know. ANDREW: Well, we're all human beings, right? We want to ultimately, I think, one of our desires, for almost everybody, is to want to show up on every level for the sexy times, right, you know? Cause once you understand or experience other levels of awareness ... TY: Right. ANDREW: You know? You want to bring that everywhere, right? But as you say, it's not really a ... there's not really a mechanism for that. TY: Right, right. I mean but the thing is I feel that we do, we do have our concept of sacred relationship because for, in my opinion, when the awo, and his apedibi, Soday, and marry, that's our sacred relationship, when the Ialosha and the Babalosha marry. They ... that's our sacred relationship, because now you have the bringing together of these two powerful entities that can birth something. Now what's going to change it is the context, the intention, the consciousness, and what you're going to put forth in it. But the fact that it exists ... I think is ... I think if it didn't exist there would be no need for the Babala to have an Apedibi, to have that feminine counterpart to the masculine, you know? To bring about that balance and uplift his Ifa. [laughs] You know what I'm saying? So, we definitely have it, but do we understand what we have? Do we not articulate it? And then what does it mean? So, you know, doubling back to your initial question, your average person looks like talk therapy and then whatever body-based somatic therapy they may need according to their issue. The average person in this tradition, I kind of keep separate, and it stays on like a counseling, I have to counsel them one on one, because a), having the conversation itself is damn near taboo, as conservative as we are, and b) you can't bring that into ritual, you've got to do ritual first and then have a separate conversation about that. ANDREW: For sure. Yeah. Mmmhmm. I've got to say I dig how you're navigating all that. TY: [laughs] Yeah. ANDREW: So, I've got one more question for you before we wrap up. TY: Uh huh. ANDREW: So, how do you sustain all these traditions you're doing? I get a little tired just hearing about it! [laughs] TY: On a schedule. [laughs] ANDREW: Yeah! TY: Well, I work for myself, so I wake up, usually I have sunrise meditation and yoga, and then I tend to my ancestors and whatever loa might be that day, so Tuesdays I'm on my Petro, and you know, whatever, Thursdays I'm on my rada, and then I go ahead and reap my Orisha, my ifa, and I keep it moving. At night, I normally deal with my prendas ... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. TY: And I try to keep my workings to them around what's going on in the sky, and I mostly work that outside and at night. And you know, loa gives you a schedule, cause loa has to be served every day, and you know, it's certain people that you serve on certain days. Orisha, all they need daily is to breathe, pour libations and keep it moving, you know? I might throw to my Orisha, you know, my head Orisha once a month, Elegba, maybe once a week, appease him, you know, my little Sundays or Mondays, I keep it moving! You know, they, it's just ... it's such a part of my lifestyle, it's I wake up, yoga, meditation, greet Luwan, have your day, come back, say hello to the Palo people, go to bed. You got ebbó to do, do your work. ANDREW: Yeah. TY: [laughs] ANDREW: I love it. I mean I think it's one of those things, right? So many people ... I hear many people who kind of say that they want to live that kind of life, right? You know, that that's what they're looking for. TY: You gotta be built for that life. ANDREW: Yeah. [laughs] ANDREW: Yeah, cause you know, I mean, it's one of those things, right? I mean, you know, I mostly just, I mean I work with my, you know, my spirit guides and my Orisha, right? But like, it takes up a chunk of time and energy and it takes a real consistency of focus that I think that is challenging, you know? I know that I certainly when I was starting out struggled with it. And that sort of scheduling it, and just being like these are the ways that things happen, that's it, right? TY: Yeah. That's it! ANDREW: The obligation needs to be sustained, right? TY: Yeah, and I think because I didn't do it back to back. Like I had years in between each so I kind of was able to get acclimated, develop a routine, before something else came in, you know? And they're separate, I keep them separate, like they each have their own room, their own space, all of that. But they function in similar ways. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. TY: You know what I'm saying? They function in similar ways. ANDREW: Yeah. TY: So, every day if I get up and I greet my ancestors, that's gonna be a new tradition. And today, you know, I might have to blow some rum [inaudible at 00:50:04] You know what I mean? So, I mean it's not as far in or as complicated as some people make it sound. ANDREW: [inaudible--asking to repeat] TY: I said it's not as far in or complicated as some people make it sound. Even if you were just the palero, right? You're not sitting with your nganga for hours every day! You're not doing that! ANDREW: No. TY: Or most, you get up, you greet, you light 'em up and you keep it moving, unless you got something to do! ANDREW: Yeah. TY: That doesn't change, cause you got other things. ANDREW: That's true. And they've got other places to be too, right? TY: Right! ANDREW: Like they're not sitting 24 hours a day waiting for everyone. “Oh my god, I'm not bringing the tv down here, you know, we're not watching our shows together, I'm getting sad about this,” that doesn't happen, yeah. TY: They should be out there fixing the problems in my life, not sitting here! [laughs] ANDREW: Mmmhmm. For sure. That's awesome. Well, thank you so much for making time today, Ty. TY: Yep. ANDREW: People want to come and find you online, where's the best place to come and hang with you? TY: http://www.iamtyshaw.com. ANDREW: Beautiful! Go check it out! TY: Yes. ANDREW: All right. Well, thank you. TY: Yes, thank you! We'll talk soon. All right, bye.
The Hermit's Lamp Podcast - A place for witches, hermits, mystics, healers, and seekers
Jason and Andrew talk about the lessons they've learned around practicing magic as a way of life. They also talk about what it is like to live in community with those who don't practice. And of course Saint Cyprian gets talk about too. Think about how much you've enjoyed the podcast and how many episodes you listened to and think consider if it is time tosupport the Patreon You can do so here. If you want more of this in your life you can subscribe by RSS , iTunes, Stitcher, or email. You can find Jason on his website here. Thanks for listening! If you dig this please subscribe and share with those who would like it. Andrew If you are interested in booking time with Andrew either in Toronto or by phone or Skype from anywhere click here. Transcript ANDREW: Welcome to another episode of the Hermit's Lamp podcast. I have Jason Miller back with me today. And, you know, I've been continuing to watch what Jason's been putting out into the world, and, you know, he's been on my radar to have back and continue our conversations about magic and living a magical life and, you know, and, I kind of want to talk to him more about teaching and helping people discover how to live that kind of life today. But, you know, Jason, in case people haven't met you yet—and you should go back and listen to the previous episode with him—Who are you, Jason? What are you about? JASON: Oh, man. I'm all about … I'm all about getting paid and laid! No, I'm kidding ... [laughs] Yeah, no, so, I'm not against getting paid and laid, but that's certainly not what I'm all about. I am about doing magic in a way that is impactful. So, I have noticed over the course of the last 30 some odd years that I've been doing magic, that a lot of people, they put a lot of effort into a ritual, and they'll get a result, and it'll be like, you know, I spent three hours summoning a goetic demon, and the next day I found a wallet in the street, isn't that amazing? I -- it had like 200 bucks in it! That's incredible! And it's like, great! Where are we going to go from there? ANDREW: Mmmhmm. JASON: Like, you know, how is this really going to make a big difference in your life? I mean, if you're in danger of getting tossed out of your house because you're 200 bucks short on the rent, it makes a big difference. But still and all, whether it's for pure spirituality, for love, money, etc., whatever, I'm about using magic, making it meaningful, making it have a big bump in your life... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. JASON: And being able to look back and measure it and say yeah, that made a difference. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. JASON: The man I am today ... ANDREW: The man I am today! You know, it's funny, that piece about looking back is so important. I recently went through and cleaned up all my shrines and all my, like, bits and pieces of magical workings and stuff, you know, like, cause, especially as I'm running along through life and work and whatever, stuff accumulates in the corners, right? And I had done this piece of work that I was continuing to work at, to break through to the next financial level, right? And when I was cleaning it up and going through the whole thing, I forgot, that I had as part of that done one of those write a check to yourself from the universe thing, right? JASON: Oh, yeah? ANDREW: And I was like, huh, look at that! I'm currently making exactly that and I'm frustrated that I'm not getting past it! JASON: [laughs] ANDREW: So, I tripled that amount, and put a new one in and then fired it up again, and I was like … And immediately everything just started escalating like crazy, right? JASON: It's amazing, the little tweaks ... ANDREW: So easy to lose ... JASON: Yeah. The little tweaks that we can make. I remember, a few years back I was having difficulty. Same thing again, you know, I would make more money, but somehow more expenses would show up, and they'd just eat away at that. And it was so frustrating. And it's a common enough problem, you know? ANDREW: Mmmhmm. JASON: I would sit down and one day I would ... just sat down, and I might have cleaned my altar just before that time too, because that's my go to, like when things are stuck, clean up! [laughs] You know? ANDREW: Yeah! JASON: And not only do you get just a better view, but you ... You do find those little bits and nuggets of the past that tie it all together. But I sat down in front of Saint Cyprian and I was just like, “I can't seem to fix this, man! Like, I get more money, more money needs to go out.” And Saint Cyprian said, “Okay, well, you know, this month, do the same exact magic, but ask for the amount of money that you need leftover after everything is taken care of.” ANDREW: Mmmhmm. JASON: Duh! ANDREW: Yeah. JASON: And that's exactly what happened. All of a sudden, there was this excess that I could then put towards, you know, savings, better use, house, investments, etc., etc. ANDREW: Yeah, well and especially ... We're both family people, right? JASON: Yes! ANDREW: And with a family, those unknown expenses, I mean, it's so easy for them to creep up and whatever. We're so lucky in Canada, you know. My daughter just had strep throat, but because of the new way things are done here, the trip to the doctor is covered, and prescriptions are covered. So. But you know? Previously, like last year, before that came in, it'd be easy to go, you know you could go drop 50 - 60 bucks for this, and a pile of money there, and you know, every time you turn around, it just adds up and adds up. Yeah, I think that the power of being clear about what the solution is, and the power of how do you pray or ask or craft your sigil or whatever you're doing to solve the problem is such an important piece, right? JASON: What …Yeah, and you know, because we're not just praying, you know? We don't describe ourselves as religious people necessarily. I mean we might be religious people, but we're not religious in the sort of, you know, the old grandma, “I'm going to go pray and hope that this happens, and leave it up to God, and thy will be done” kind of thing. ANDREW: Sure. JASON: Because otherwise why bother with magic at all, right? ANDREW: Yeah. JASON: So, we're sort of getting actively involved. And even if we're working with the same powers, the saints and gods and angels and buddhas etc., we're as sorcerers saying, you know, I'm part of this, I'm part of this chain of events here, so I'm contributing, I'm inputting, at which point, yeah, the responsibility falls on you to ask for what you need skillfully, to recognize when you've, like in your case, been given exactly what you asked for, and then moved to the next level. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. JASON: It's, yeah, it's, I don't know, it's our responsibility. But I see a lot of people turn their sovereignty over to the spirits when it comes down to stuff like that. It's like, “Well, they know what I need.” And, why are you even bothering, then, man? [laughs] ANDREW: Yeah. I think that it's … you know ... there's this thing, I was reading through your new book, The Elements of Spellcrafting, and there's this section where you were talking about caveats, right? You know? And, like, I think that for me, whether I approach the Orishas, or whether I approach the other spirits I work with, you know? Whatever element of “Thy will be done” exists in the universe, I just assume they're doing that math for me as part of it, right? JASON: Right. ANDREW: There are things that are just never going to happen, there are things that, you know, maybe shouldn't happen, and, you know, and there are things that are maybe part of other people's will being done, and they're going to not allow me to be interfering with that, right? In the same way that, you know, it's not the monkey paw, right? Like, you know, they're not going to kill somebody so I can get their inheritance. And then I'm going to turn around and forget to say, "Bring them back as they were, and you know, instead, live a zombie love life or something," right? JASON: [laughs] ANDREW: You know, I think that there's a degree of intelligence in these processes, right? JASON: Yeah! ANDREW: Unless you're working with something belligerent, in which case, I tend to be like, well, why go there? What's the value of that? And you know, there are values, but, if stuff doesn't want to work with me, I don't know that I want to work with it, you know? JASON: I -- see, I'm the same way. There are ... I guess there are some borderline cases, where there are spirits that are happy to work once they've been … In the grimoire tradition, they've been constrained ... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. JASON: And then if made offerings to and a relationship is built, but to even get their attention requires that initial like, "Will the power that blah blah..." But in general, I'm the same way, there are so many ways to do something, especially now, with just the access we have to so many, so much information, traditions, and things like that ... And also, it helps ... You know, [ringing phone] these things don't tend to happen when we are building relationships with powers ... So, of course, now my phone ... [Answering machine voice] Telemarketers, man! ANDREW: Yeah. JASON: Sorry about that! ANDREW: They're just trying to make their money, too. You know? It's all part of ... JASON: I know, I know ... [ringing phone] ANDREW: Speaking of prolific elements, you know? [laughs] JASON: Right. We're talking about demons, the demons are like, “Hey…” ANDREW: “Hey…” JASON: “Let me talk to you about your credit card balance ...” [laughs] ANDREW: Let me talk to you about a time share ...” JASON: [laughs] So, yeah, I forgot even what I was talking about now ... ANDREW: Well, we were just talking about ... JASON: The demons erased it. ANDREW: When you're having relationships with spirits, it's something quite different. JASON: Oh yeah! Yeah, it's so different than looking up in a book and saying, "Well, what's the spirit that handles this, and I'm going to contact them and make a deal…" ANDREW: Yeah. JASON: As opposed to "these are spirits that I make offerings to regularly, every day, all the time, I acknowledge special days," and, you know, you build a relationship. ANDREW: Yeah. JASON: So then when it comes down to somebody in the Strategic Sorcery group the other day asked "Why are the spirits so literal about everything? I'm getting exactly what I ASK for, but just outside of what I intended." And I said, "Well, you know, get better at asking for stuff, but the other thing is, build up a relationship, let spirits into your life, and you can ... you ... they'll get a better window into what you need.” It's not necessarily belligerent, the assumption there is that they're all knowing, all powerful. You know? You gotta let 'em know. ANDREW: They're not stalkers, right? JASON: Right. They're not stalkers. ANDREW: They're not here 24/7, they're not looking at everything, they're not Santa Claus, right? JASON: Right. ANDREW: You know? Like, they don't know everything, if you don't sit down when you have their attention and tell them, right? JASON: Yeah. ANDREW: And here again, if you have a relationship with spirit, much of the time the solution to the problem is like, "Hey, my friend, I have this problem, I need to talk to you about it." JASON: [laughs] ANDREW: “Blah blah blah, here's my problem, here's what it looks like, here's what I've been doing, you know, I don't know what to do next, or I just feel like I've got no luck, or like whatever you feel, and be like, hey, please help me out with this. And sometimes that can be it too, right? Just a conversation, kind of like, you know, hey, help me out, my friend, not even like, “and I'll give you this,” or whatever, right? JASON: Absolutely. Absolutely. Cause that ... that giving, that back and forth, it's already present in the relationship. Just like with real people, you know? I use ... I always talk about borrowing 50 bucks. You know, if you accost somebody on the street, they're not giving you 50 bucks. ANDREW: Yeah. JASON: If you ask a coworker, maybe they will, maybe they won't. But if you ask a friend, of course. They're gonna be like, “Yeah, here, do you need any more? are you good? Pay me back when you can.” Because you have a lifetime of the back and forth and it makes all the difference. ANDREW: So, every time I tell people that you're going to be on the podcast, and some other people too, but they're always like, “So tell me about Cyprian. What about Saint Cyprian?” JASON: [laughs] ANDREW: “What's going on with Cyprian? What do I need to know about Saint Cyprian,” right? What ... I mean, I feel like we talked about it last time, from what I remember, you know? But I'm curious. Especially because it's been a little while. Saint Cyprian seems to be growing further and further into the world these days. What do you think is up with that? Why is that happening? JASON: Oh. [sighs heavily] Well, I'm going to go ahead and say that one of the things that's happening is that the focus is not so squarely on white European magic any more. And ... ANDREW: That's really true. JASON: And, you know, I can ... I will thank the younger generation of millennials for some of this, that, you know, while there's certainly a lot of crap I could give the millennial generation--I'm a Gen Xer and I'm sure you are too, but--One of the good things is there's not quite as much focus on the white European magic, nor what white Europeans, especially Victorians, had to say about magic from elsewhere. So, Saint Cyprian was sort of, has been huge in Portuguese and Spanish-speaking world for many years. ANDREW: Yeah. JASON: You find tons of little, I have some Spanish, everything from actual books of Saint Cyprian, to little like pamphlets, trade magazines, in Spanish, that are, you know, about Saint Cyprian. And then of course you've got the Scandinavian books of Saint Cyprian in Norway. So, all this was sort of happening outside the German/English pipeline, you know? ANDREW: Mmmhmm. JASON: And, so it was already this huge presence that just needed to poke its way into the English-speaking world. And then once it did, we do what we do with everything, it explodes. And he became immensely popular. I'm super proud of having written a really halfway not even very good article surveying the cult of Cyprian, but I wrote it back in 2007 so I can pat myself on the back, and you know, get the "before it was cool" cred. [laughs] But, you know, the amazing work has been done since then, with Humberto Maggi, and José Leitão, their translations of Cyprian books, and the commentary on them is just huge. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. JASON: And he's ... just a great worker. You know? People are looking at Christianity and realizing that there's a lot more to it than the evangelical anti-magical Protestant mindset. And maybe some of that is that we have a generation of people here who were not necessarily brought up in church, so they're kind of looking at the church with magical eyes rather than “Uhhhh, this is such a drag!” eyes. Which is why you're getting ... More and more people are going to Latin mass. Like young people going to Latin mass wherever it's available. So, you have this interest in Christianity, and people are looking at, "Well, where is witchcraft really preserved?" If we can let go of some of the Margaret Murray thesis of pagan cults that survived in secret, well, you know, a hell of a lot of it was that folk magic came into Christianity and the ceremonial magic, the whole grimoire tradition. So, once information about a saint of sorcerers became available, I think it was just, people wanted to take it and run, and have. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. It's a very accessible notion, right? I mean, it's in our culture, you know, North American culture, the idea of saints and what we do with them. There's a ... whether you're raised with it or not, it's around enough that I think it's not super foreign, you know? JASON: Yeah. No. Absolutely. And it's, you know, Cyprian himself had already existed in such varied forms. You know, the emphasis in Europe is ... are on the books and spells that Cyprian himself was said to have penned, whether before or after death. And then in the New World traditions from Peru up to Mexico, the emphasis is on calling Cyprian himself as sort of a mediator between light and dark forces. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. JASON: And you can see this in the mesa traditions where they have … The shamans have the two mesas laid out and Saint Cyprian right in the middle. ANDREW: Yeah. JASON: And so, Cyprian exists as this eternal between. He's between everything. He's between heaven and hell, he's between Christian and non-Christian, he's a … you know, he builds bridges. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. JASON: And it's just brilliant. the only things that I think some people who maybe were raised with Cyprian in the non-English, you know, object to sort of, you know, white people taking it and running with it places that it never was historically. The only thing that I really see that I ever object to is when people attempt to completely deChristianize Cyprian utterly. And say, "oh, that was never really part of it," I'm always like "well, we already have Merlin and other ... ANDREW: Sure. JASON: You know? It's the very fact that he was a bishop that kind of makes it special. ANDREW: Well and I think that that's kind of leading up to what I was going to ask you as a question, being, what's the thing people are getting wrong about this, right? Or, what's the pitfall people fall into, you know? Because, you know, I have conversations with other, you know, olochas and priests in the Orisha tradition about what people are kind of misunderstanding as they approach traditions. Right? You know? JASON: Yeah. ANDREW: So, you know, I think that, you kind of already nailed it, right? You know, like, what is Cyprian without Christianity? JASON: Yeah. yeah. And, you know, what is Cyprian without Justina? Justina, I think, gets downplayed quite a bit in favor of Cyprian, but it's important to remember that it was her that turned back his demons with the sign of the cross. It was her that wielded the power that attracted him to Christianity in the first place. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. JASON: And so, I think one of the other things, apart from the deChristianizing of Cyprian, and I get it, I mean, Christianity has, I mean, for every good thing about Christianity, there's a horrible thing about Christianity. ANDREW: Yeah. At least one. JASON: At least one! And some people have been really just damaged to the point where this is not a useful thing in this life for them ... ANDREW: Yeah. JASON: To even worry about Christianity one way or the other. They left it, and good, because, you know, it was causing them a lot of pain. So, I'm not one of those people that's like, you know, “You have to be Christian.” But, you have to be, I think to work with Cyprian, you have to be comfortable, at least looking at Jesus, Christianity, and all the rest of it as a usable power, as a valid spiritual power, and it's always weird to me how people who are so open that they can embrace, sometimes, dozens of traditions at the same time, and, you know, while “Hecate, Queen of Heaven, and ...” yet, once it's Christian, because of the baggage, it's like, oh no. No. That is false, and I reject it ever. ANDREW: Yeah. And I think, as you say, I think it's part of all of our journeys; ideally to try and resolve and free ourselves of those baggages, you know? And I think about how when I started doing misas, and sort of espiritismo, and Alan Kardek style, you know, ceremonies and stuff like that, you know, and praying for my ancestors who were Catholic, or, you know, Anglican or whatever, with the prayers that they asked for, without any attachment to that, you know, came from, you know, a number of years of deconstructing less so explicit Church history, cause I don't have much of that, but more so, negative cultural influences on that stuff that I was basically, you know what? Screw you and your son! You know? For about 19 years, right? JASON: [laughing] ANDREW: And, you know, but being free of that really allows for, has allowed me to meet spirits where they want to be met, where that feels appropriate to me, and therefore, when my grandmother was like, say the Lord's Prayer, say the Apostle's Creed, say the, you know, the Hail Marys, say this, say that, I'm like, "Cool, I'll say those prayers for you, it's fine." JASON: Right. ANDREW: But it's not straightforward, you know? JASON: No. ANDREW: For many people. And definitely for me it wasn't, in the beginning, so. JASON: Yeah. yeah. And there ... You know, my advice is always, if that is bringing trauma and discomfort, there are other powers. You don't have to work with Cyprian. And I guess that's the worry that everyone has that something becomes sort of insanely popular and people get involved only because of its popularity. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. JASON: I don't know how much of a danger that really is. I've always been one of those people that's kind of … It's like, “Is the band good or is the band not good?” How many other people like the band isn't really relevant ... ANDREW: Yeah. JASON: To my enjoyment of them. But for some people it is. They want to be in on the thing no one else was in on. ANDREW: Well, and, you know, it's funny, so, I spent time in the Aurum Solis, which is a not very popular not very well-known ceremonial order, right? JASON: Ogdoatic! ANDREW: Yeah. And, you know, I mean, in some ways, my time there was one of the most liberating of things, because unlike many other systems, where they gave name and form to whatever dualities and core principle and so on, they just use generic terms, and generic terms that they had set up for themselves for people within the order to work with, and so, it was always open-ended, and then if you were working Enochian or goetic or this or whatever, you shifted and you melded it to where you wanted it to be, or where it made sense to put that together, unlike in other systems, you know, like when I was into Crowley stuff, and here's your specific, you know, ordered organization and structure, and you know, in other places where it's like, well this is always this person. It's like, eh, they could be many things ... JASON: [laughing] ANDREW: I want to know what would make sense here, you know? JASON: Right. ANDREW: Cause there's more of this idea of there being an archetypal or source that was putting on source as we danced with it, called it, rather than having predefined form that we were required to meld ourselves to. and in that process, I actually became very malleable, and very free from a lot of other stuff, which was pretty handy, so. JASON: Yeah, that is. Now Aurum Solis, they went like full Christian at one point, didn't they, awhile back? ANDREW: I left the order around 2000, 2001. I think that as far as I know they were going more in like a sort of witchcraft, European witchcraft direction when I was leaving. JASON: Really! ANDREW: Which wasn't really my particular thing, yeah. But it's been a long time and I'm no longer involved so I couldn't actually say. JASON: Okay. Yeah, I seem to remember something about Denning taking the order into like a, you know, reforming it as a Christian-only order, and then un-reforming it as a Christian order, just only a few years after that, when people were like, naaah, that's ... ANDREW: Yeah, it's hard to say. I don't know that part of the history. It certainly wasn't a part of my time. But, I mean, like many of those experiences, my work was mostly about my local person rather than the bigger picture of things too, right? Which is... JASON: Yeah. ANDREW: Both a pro and a con, right? Cause it's great when everybody's on the same page, but when your local person and your international person or head of the order is doing something else, then you know, that's kind of, becomes disruptive, so. JASON: We, in, you know, I was in the OTO for a while, and we had formed a camp, still around today in Philadelphia, Thelesis. It's now, I think, an oasis. It's ... the OTO has small camps, and then they have oases, and then they have lodges, and so on. And when we started it out, it was like a bunch of people that were disgruntled from the New York scene, and then we made all these connections in Philadelphia, which had an OTO group, and then everybody left. So, we just gathered the people that were sort of abandoned. ANDREW: Sure. JASON: And we were the weirdest OTO group in the order at the time, because none of us wanted to do the gnostic mass, like none of us wanted to do it. ANDREW: Right. JASON: None of us wanted to do Resh, the four times a day, you know, he is the Sun God, he is the Fun God, rah rah rah kind of thing every day. And so, we were just, we were essentially just a magical group, and we were using the OTO as sort of this unstructural umbrella and, that we would report to. And for years, like we had Behutet Magazine, which is still running, but we wouldn't allow any Crowley reprints, or poetry, and all the other magazines at the time were, you know, like “Here's a reprint of Crowley ...” ANDREW: Mmmhmm. JASON: “And my poems!” And so, we were like, “nope, none of that,” and it was all about the local people and what they wanted to do and it was great. It was great. It has changed now. I think they're much more in line with the overall order than it used to be. But, it's the way things go. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. Yeah, I think that there are certainly in my experience, there are the times and places where a group of people coalesce for one reason or another, you know, and those moments and times are wonderful, and you know, when I was younger I used to think they would last forever, and now I find myself ... JASON: [laughs] Yeah. ANDREW: ... in, you know, in those moments, I just savor them, knowing that likely they'll pass at some point. You know? And may even be far and few between, so, you know, just revel in them, like, oh, how wonderful to have all these connections in this thing right now, you know? JASON: It is, it is. And, you know, I don't know how involved you are in your local community. I live in the sticks, I live in New Jersey, but, you know, down in the pine barrens, and I do miss having a big local community, and the time, too, because between business and kids, that eats most of it up. ANDREW: Yeah. JASON: So. ANDREW: Yeah, I mean, local magical community, we have, we sometimes, maybe three or four times a year I have just a, call it a magically-minded social night at the shop, and just open, show up, make some tea, hang out, whatever. So those are always great. Everybody's invited, so if you're hearing this and you want to come, get in touch. And for me, it's like, because my primary work is Orisha work, right? So, it's ceremonies and stuff like that that happens, so, you know. JASON: Right. ANDREW: Early in the year I was down in the States helping at a birth of a priest, and, those are great, you know. But they're not so much local and they're not really ongoing, they're more periodic when they're required, so. JASON: Right. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. JASON: Right. You know, the shops are wonderful, and the community that ... I mean ... Back when I was starting out, the shop was your only link to the community, really, ANDREW: Yeah. JASON: If you didn't know it already, if you were just interested in magic, it was like putting in time at the shop. You would just like hang out, talk with the shop owner, and … ANDREW: Mmhmm JASON: They, you guys facilitated all the introductions, so ... ANDREW: Yeah. JASON: It was really just through getting friendly with shop owners in the area that I got to know who was doing what where. ANDREW: And for me it was because I lived in sort of small town Ontario growing up, it was, twice a year there was a psychic fair, and I would go and find stuff there, which is where I bought like, Magic in Theory and Practice when I was 12, and stuff like that. JASON: Yes. ANDREW: And then there'd be like six months of like, trying to understand what the hell is being said in those books ... JASON: [laughing] ANDREW: What do I do with my hands? What am I supposed to say? What's going on? You know? But, that was it, because, you know, I was too young to drive, too young to get anywhere, there were no buses to the city, you know, back in the 80s and stuff like that, it was just like, that was it. You take your books, you go home, you read em a bunch, try and figure it out, realize you don't know what you're doing, and then try again, you know? So. JASON: No YouTube videos, to ... ANDREW: No YouTube videos. JASON: To set you right. ANDREW: Yeah. For sure. So, one of the other questions people ... somebody posted ... was, and I feel like I already know the answer to this, but I'm going to ask you anyway, so: Do you ever run into people who are disapproving of your practices? I mean we were talking about people who didn't like your books and stuff like that before we got on the call, but like, you ever just like face to face in your community, or you know that kind of stuff, run into anything, or ... ? Is that ... ? JASON: Rarely. ANDREW: Yeah. JASON: Rarely. I benefit from having not only a common name but several other famous Jason Millers. ANDREW: Uh huh. JASON: So when I have a day job, it was, it would be an odd thing for them to find out about me, even after I started publishing books, because you've got Jason Miller the playwright, Jason Miller the MMA fighter, and now you've got Jason Miller the, you know, Trump campaign dude, who I was ... Someone wrote, like, bitching about Trump to me, and it was clear they thought that I worked for his campaign. Like, “How can you, an occultist, work for Donald Trump?” I was like, “Two different people!” [laughing] ANDREW: Yeah. JASON: Like, I don't know, I don't even look like that guy. But, you know, so, it didn't happen too often, that people would find out. When they did, I have a way of explaining it or presenting it, so … It's amazing if you just drop certain words out of your vocabulary. ANDREW: Like demon? JASON: Like demon, sure! You know ... So, for instance. All right. I can go to a Buddhist ceremony and we can take a phurba and make a ritual doll, essentially a voodoo doll, a linga, and stab the shit out of it and release, liberate it, quote, and you know, essentially, hard core black magic, but if you tell somebody you're going to a Buddhist event, “Oh, the Dalai Lama is so holy, oh, that's wonderful that you're interested in Buddhism and meditation and ...” You can say, when I introduce myself to other parents at the playground, and they ask what I do, I say, "I'm a writer, so I work from home, and that's why we spend summers elsewhere,” and things like that. I can say, “Well, you know, I write on mysticism or, and meditation,” that's easy for most people. Like, they don't think too much about it. You can … If they press you can say, “Well, you know, I write about shamanism or fringe religion,” right? The moment you say magic, then it's sort of like, “Ohhhhh, I don't know,” and then if you say witchcraft, now you're introducing the language of the diabolical, of what society has called, you know, it relates, you know, I mean, and modern witchcraft willfully and knowingly took on the constellation of terms around the witch hunts, and coopted those and used those terms, and to good effect, I think. But that's why witches get hassled by Christians and Druids tend not to. ANDREW: Hmm. JASON: Because people don't know what a Druid is. So, you're just some crunchy hippie dude. ANDREW: Yeah. JASON: Or, you know, witches, pagans, have trouble, but somebody who is Asatru, describes themselves that way, might not. Somebody might think they're a racist, but [laughs]. ANDREW: Yeah. JASON: You know. They're not going to get that "Do you worship Satan?" kind of thing. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. JASON: So. ANDREW: I think that, it really is very much about ... For me, it's very much about how you frame it, and for me, it's such a clear given about my life and I can explain it in simple terms, you know, I explain it to my kids as they were growing up in simple terms, they get to know more and more as time goes on about my religious Orisha practices, you know, and there's so many ways in which you can sort of just frame it, and I find that for me almost without exception, when I approach the conversation where people are like, “Wait, wait, you kill chickens.” I'm like, “Yeah dude. Do you eat chicken? I see you're wearing leather shoes.” JASON: [laughing] ANDREW: Right, like? Or whatever. And if you're grounded in it, I find that it is rarely an issue. JASON: Yeah. ANDREW: I mean, it's always possible to be an issue, but almost never, you know? I've had one person give me a hard time at the shop since I opened the store five, almost six years ago. And he's some older local dude who stood in front of my door one day blocking it, and I went to talk to him, and he was waiting for the bus, and he basically just got really mad and started swearing at me and telling me I was going to hell and whatever, and, you know, and then some woman who was waiting with her kids at the bus stop started yelling at him to stop swearing … JASON: Yeah. ANDREW: Very quickly became the end of the conversation, and then, I see him walk past now, cause I'm still in the neighborhood, but he's just, eyes forward and ignores me completely now, you know? And one other person who no longer does this but for a long time used to leave little inspirational God pamphlets in my mailbox all the time. But that was it. Like, easily if I saw him, he'd be like "How are you today, you know, I'm going to work, here have this, here, take one of these." I'm always like, "Sure man, whatever," but never, nothing ever escalated, cause I never escalated it. You know? JASON: Yeah. I mean, I love the little pamphlets. I mean, I always thank people for them, and I just hold in my head that obviously I don't agree with them, but this person feels like they have the spiritual equivalent of the cure for cancer. So, if they think that that's true, then the moral thing to do is to spread that far and wide, right? Like, not to be like, “Shh, don't tell anyone, we have the secret keys to enlightenment and heaven.” So, I always look at, like if somebody's just sharing or they knock on the door or something like that, I always kind of assume the best ... ANDREW: Yeah. JASON: Because it's done, even though I think they're deluded in what they believe, I think their moral intention to share it is good most of the time. Sometimes it's not. Sometimes it's just masking their desire to persecute others. And that becomes apparent pretty quick. And, you know, thankfully, you live in Canada, and I live in the relatively for America more enlightened northeastern United States. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. JASON: There are some areas of my country where I gotta believe I'd probably get a lot more hassle than I do here. One of the reasons I don't live in some areas of the country. ANDREW: For sure, yeah. JASON: You know, in that my kids would be going to school, some parent would Google me, and now my kids would be having a hard time, and ... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. Well, you would just go to your Buddhist meditation and solve it, right? [laughing] JASON: Yes, yeah. I can just, "It's just Buddhism," "Noooo, I saw the books, it's not just Buddhism!" ANDREW: It's so many things. That's funny. Yeah, it's funny, you know, I think, probably because I spent so long in a Mohawk, and being all punked out and stuff, I just, people don't tend to argue with me too much about stuff, and I don't really tend to engage people. The minute stuff comes up I'm always like, “You know what, I think I'm gonna go now, see you later ...” JASON: Yeah! ANDREW: You know and just opt out of those conversations too, right? So. JASON: Yeah, you know, the times that it comes up are ... they're just few and far between, because ultimately, people aren't all that interested. If they're not interested, then they're not particularly interested, you know? It's a weird thing, but if you are able to talk about other things and hold a real conversation with people about something other than that ... ANDREW: Yeah. JASON: Which is a talent that sadly not everyone in our community has, but … ANDREW: Mmmhmm. JASON: It goes a long way. It's like, look, you know, if you invite me over for dinner, no, I'm not going to start prattling on about religion and weirdness unless you ask. ANDREW: Yeah. No, for sure. Yeah, back when I used to work in advertising, I discovered that there were certain places that I would end up, and there were certain kinds of conversations that went better, so like when I was going down to the print shop to talk to the guy who's running the big printing presses and do color proofs, you know, a lot of those guys really dug sports, and so I would check the paper, see what was going on, and just prep myself to have a good conversation with them, and it didn't hurt me at all, they loved it, you know, and it made for a better relationship, you know? Showing an interest in what people are interested in gets us a long way a lot of the time, right? JASON: Oh yeah. ANDREW: And avoids a lot of problems, right? Because then you have that personal connection where they're like, “Well, Jason's not really that bad, I mean he takes his kids to the park all the time, how can you, he can't be evil, he's gotta be good, so whatever, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.” Right? JASON: That's it! ANDREW: Yup. So, first of all, thank you for making time today. JASON: Thank you for having me, man! ANDREW: Yeah. What have you got going on? I know that you've got this book that just came out this year, The Elements of Spellcrafting, which is great, and people should definitely check that out. What else is going on? Where should people find you? What have you got coming down the line? JASON: Well, people can find me at StrategicSorcery.net. And the big thing coming down the line is, the next cycle of Sorcery of Hecate opens up in May for a June start. This is a class that -- it got so much bigger than I ever expected it to, because it, you know, it's a hard … it's the hardest class that I do, like as far as like, people want, you want something to do that, you know, requires a commitment and will get you results but is going to ask something more from you. ANDREW: Yeah. JASON: And is going to challenge you, like the first month or two, you're going to come to me and say, "Oh, I had this vision ..." and I'm going to be like, "That's great, keep doing the ritual, please." You know? Like, the vision is great, but just, it doesn't mean anything. Let's get deeper. Let's go deep. Let's not settle for "I did a ritual, I had a vision," like, is it important? Is it telling you something you didn't know? If not, make a note, celebrate, have a cupcake, then get back to work. ANDREW: Yeah. JASON: So, I never expected a program that required like that amount of effort and work and, you know, I can be challenging, and just tell people, like, "That's not important right now," [laughs] ANDREW: Mmmhmm. JASON: I never expected it to take off, but my god, it has. ANDREW: Well, she's a real powerhouse, right? I mean, she's another one of those ones whose presence in the world is on the rise. So, I'm going to share my vision; you can tell me it's not important afterwards. JASON: [laughing] ANDREW: So, I haven't done your course, but years ago, when I first started reading at somebody else's store in Toronto, the person who owned the store, Hecate was their thing, they were all about that, and most of the people who worked there were about her, and sort of like, it was the anchor of that store, right? And I'd been working there for a little bit, and they were doing a big ceremony for her. And I didn't go, cause I was like, “nah, it's not my thing,” right? So, I had this dream, where she showed up, you know, infinitely dark and infinitely expansive at the same time, and she just looked at me, up and down, said, "You're not one of mine, but you're all right, you can keep working here." And that was the whole dream, and I was just like, "Perfect!" It's done! JASON: And that's, you know, that is an example of, it's got meaning, you know, it's a seal of approval, it's got an essential message ... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. JASON: But it's not something you want to sit and like, fuss over. ANDREW: No, exactly. JASON: You can keep working there. Which is ... ANDREW: I got my approval to continue to be employed there, and that's great, cause I'm sure that if she didn't like me I would have been gone ... JASON: [laughing] ANDREW: And then that's it, and I'm like, all right! And then, the other piece which was, you don't need to get more involved in this stuff, cause it's not yours, I'm not for you. JASON: And I've had that happen as well. Before I became involved in Buddhism, I was getting very interested in Haitian voodoo, I was trading correspondence with Max Beauvoir, I was studying anything I could get my hands on and putting together completely half-assed ceremonies of my own. ANDREW: Sure. JASON: To connect with the Orishas, as everyone did in the 90s, and I would read anything, god, I lived practically on the New Orleans Voodoo Tarot, from Louis Martinié. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. JASON: And I ... there was this point where I was getting ready to go to Haiti, and Legba was kind of like, "Maybe not." ANDREW: Yeah. JASON: Maybe, like, "You and I are cool, but maybe you don't want to get involved in all this stuff." ANDREW: Mmmhmm. JASON: And I …You know, looking back later there are ... I really don't react well with tobacco, for instance. ANDREW: Hmm. JASON: And I just both with my lungs, my senses, I get ... I don't know, maybe something happened when I was a child with cigarettes or something, you know, it just sets me off, and that would have been a big stumbling block for me, a few other commitments and taboos probably would have been a big stumbling block for me in the long run, and so it was really solid advice, and I was like, well where should I go? And it was right after I asked that, I was in upstate New York and I was talk ... did a lave tet with Louis Martinié that day, and then that evening Michelin Linden, his wife, was like, let me tell you about my experience with the Kalachakra. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. JASON: And it was really--it hit me hard. Partly because I was on three different psychedelics at the time, but it hit me hard anyway. [laughs] And, you know, I went back, and I called John Reynolds, who I had known for years already, and he was the first Westerner to be ordained as a Ngakpa, Tibetan sorcerer. I was like, “I'm in! What do I do?” ANDREW: Yeah. JASON: You know. Legba sent me to you! [laughing] ANDREW: Well, I mean that is a tremendous piece of wisdom, right? JASON: Yeah. ANDREW: You know and like, in reading the shells for people, it's something that people don't expect at all, and it's like, look, you know who's got the answer? Those people. This group. Your psychiatrist has the answer. But we don't have the answer for you. You know? And that -- listening to that voice, and going and like giving up the sense of definition that we start to formulate around these things, in light of a bigger deeper truth or a more complete truth, I think is one of the best things you can ever do for yourself, to really honor that when it emerges, you know? JASON: Amen to that. ANDREW: Yeah. JASON: Amen to that. ANDREW: Cool. Well, so people should check out your Hecate course. It's going to be deep and challenging. And people should head over to your website. JASON: Good! ANDREW: Awesome. Perfect. Well, thanks again for making time, Jason. Lovely to chat with you as always. JASON: Thank you for having me!
The Hermit's Lamp Podcast - A place for witches, hermits, mystics, healers, and seekers
Paige and Andrew talk about the magickal power of art in their lives. They also talk about spirits, shamanism, shaman sickness, magick, geography and the power of plants. You can find paige on her website here and on social media (Facebook INSTAGRAM). If you are interested in supporting this podcast though our Patreon you can do so here. If you want more of this in your life you can subscribe by RSS , iTunes, Stitcher, or email. Thanks for listening! If you dig this please subscribe and share with those who would like it. Andrew If you are interested in booking time with Andrew either in Toronto or by phone or Skype from anywhere click here. ANDREW: I want to first start off by saying, big thank you to all the wonderful people who are supporting the Patreon for this podcast. They are getting some awesome bonus stuff, like special recordings, sneak peeks of art work and other projects that I'm working on, and they are helping grow this podcast. They are helping move towards the goal of providing transcriptions so that deaf people can take part in these conversations, and they are also helping support the work that I do, running down guests, getting people on the show, coordinating people in different time zones and on other sides of the planet, and, finally, they're helping improve the production value of this podcast by allowing me to start considering acquiring better equipment and get away from some of the janky duct-taped together process I've been doing for a long time. If you dig the podcast, jump over to Patreon.com/thehermitslamp and pitch in. Every dollar helps. So, welcome to The Hermit's Lamp podcast. I am here today with Paige Zaferiou, and she is a tarot reader, and all around magical being, and I thought it was time for us to have some conversations so that people could get to know her and see what she's about. So, for people who don't know you, Paige, who are you? What are you up to? What's going on over there? PAIGE: Hi, Andrew! Yeah, thank you so much for having me! First of all, it's such a pleasure to be here on your esteemed podcast. My whole dealio, I guess, is I'm a so-called eclectic shamanic artist, which is a bunch of words that means I use a variety of different media, very eclectic media, to do a variety of things. I am a tarot reader, and an astrologer, and a ritualist, and spirit-initiated shaman, as well as a fine artist. I do watercolors, book binding artist books, tarot/oracle decks, and other visual media, and all of it really is united by my very Aries enthusiasm. That's really my jam. I just love being here. I'm so happy to be an incarnated being right now. What a time to be alive! ANDREW: Definitely. What a time to be alive, huh? [laughs] PAIGE: Mmmhmm, mmmhmmm. [laughs] ANDREW: So, when I hear you talk about what all the things that you're up to… PAIGE: Mmmhmm… ANDREW: I feel like hey, you and I have this in common, right, an artist and ritualist and many of those things, maybe not the astrologer part, I don't feel—that's more of an amateur thing for me than a more serious thing, but, how do you sort of hold that together, you know? PAIGE: Oh, that's a good question! Well, I guess I'll start by saying that, for the context in my life: I am someone who has been diagnosed with ADHD, from a very young age, maybe an unusually young age. When I was about seven years old, I was recruited for a medical study at Mass General Hospital on girls with ADHD, and I was part of that medical study for 13 years, and so the context for my life has always been, one who is able to hold many things in the sort of container of my mind, practice, and daily life with, if not ease, a sort of natural— ANDREW: Mmmhmm. PAIGE: —just sort of that just is how it is. There's always been a lot going on in my life, and the juggling act has been something that I guess you could apply the old saying of it's about the journey, not the destination? ANDREW: Mmmhmm. PAIGE: There is a certain enjoyment I get from juggling all the things that I do and all the different pieces, and part of that joy is in pattern recognition, is in looking for the patterns between things that might seem to be very different, but they have a sort of underlying, unifying pattern of some kind, and finding out what that is has been part of the joy for me—even if it's not readily apparent and even if I still don't quite have all the answers for what that might be, it's something I enjoy very much, that mystical constant searching, for WHY do I do the things I do, what is it about this that draws me, why am I called in this direction, and surrendering myself to the joy of the journey, and the joy of seeking those answers. Which is definitely a big part of being a shaman as well, and the shamanic technology is about the journey is the experience, the journey is the answer, the question is the answer, being able to hold all those things at one time. ANDREW: Yeah, I dig it. I feel like for me, the sort of diversity of what I do is more, I mean I think of it as, there are just times where applying myself in different ways makes more sense, you know? PAIGE: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: You know, it's like, what does this person need? Well, they need some art made, and the art will help them get into that space, you know, and for me, it's kind of this sort of constant search, not so much like in terms of a journey, although I mean it's obviously a journey, but more so in the sense of a constant search for better ways to articulate and express myself. PAIGE: Mmmm. ANDREW: You know, and I feel like, it's about finding those spaces where I'm present and able to be present and share from that place, whether that's cards or art or, you know, any of the other kinds of things that I get into, so. PAIGE: Yeah, absolutely! ANDREW: So, how… you said “spirit-led shamanism.” How did that come about? Like, where was the start of that for you? PAIGE: Oh, my gosh! I would say the real start of that was when I was about 25, maybe, I was in my, you know, early, mid-twenties, I was really starting to deepen my relationship to the tarot, and it all started when I got this tarot deck, the Wildwood Tarot, that you are probably familiar with. And it's very Druidic, a kind of shamanic deck, and it started drawing me in towards the path of shamanism, and I really felt called to explore that more, and begin to educate myself and basically called up my parents and said, you know, “Mom, Dad, I think I want to be a shaman,” and they said, “Oh, that's really funny! You were baptized by a shaman woman when you were a baby!” ANDREW: Uh-huh. PAIGE: And, oh! ANDREW: Imagine that! PAIGE: So, I began to explore more deeply and then after a couple of years, in early 2015, I experienced shaman sickness, very suddenly, very frighteningly, the unexplained illness that mimics physical death… ANDREW: Yeah. PAIGE: …under the tutelage of an initiatory helping spirit who had been in my life for about a year, year and a half, really, really strongly, and it all suddenly came together, and the shaman sickness has been coming kind of in waves, deepening. Every year or so, I'll have another bout. I just actually, very recently, experienced another level of shaman sickness, and so, when I say spirit-led initiation, that's what I mean, I have helping spirits who are not physical, human people, but on the spiritual level who are guiding me through these initiatory experiences, teaching me some more shamanic technology, helping me encounter the different cases, the different problems that will come across my path for me to really engage with on the shamanic level, and… So there wasn't, other than the woman who baptized me when I was a baby, there really wasn't an incarnated human person guiding me on this path other than the teachers and authors who… Works that I've read, whose writings I've engaged with, whose teachings I've engaged with. It's never been a one to one physical mentorship on this path so far, with the exception of the other shamans I've encountered, who are fairly few and far between, the shamans who've encountered shaman sickness thrust upon them unexpectedly… ANDREW: Mmmhmm. PAIGE: …and gone through that journey as well. ANDREW: How did, how did you, how did you know that it was shaman sickness? Like what differentiated that? PAIGE: One of the, I don't know if this is a copout answer, but I just sort of knew, on one level, but it was the first level, I just sort of knew, this is something not entirely physical, there's something really deep happening here, and part of how I knew were, there were the clues that later, when I encountered other shamans who'd experienced the same thing, we were able to compare notes and say, “okay, okay, now I see what's really happening here!” Some of those signs included increased encounters with spirits of the dead… ANDREW: Mmmhmm. PAIGE: …very intense encounters with spirits of the dead, symptoms of spiritual attack, the presence of the initiatory helping spirit, and some of the plant helping spirits associated with that spirit. The complete unexplained nature of the illness, there was no—each time it's happened there's been really no traceable source, it just sort of happened. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. PAIGE: And then the, all the messages, signs, and omens that I was receiving during the periods around that time that made it clear, like, you're going through an initiatory experience here, and it wasn't all nicely neatly revealed at one time, like “Here's what's happening, here's why, here's who we are, it's part of your team, like enjoy this nice, clarified experience!” [laughs] ANDREW: [laughs] “Here's your access card to the bat cave,” you know? PAIGE: [laughing] Right! ANDREW: And “you're now on the team,” right? PAIGE: “Here's your welcome package! Read through your pamphlets!” Wouldn't that be nice? But, yeah, so it kind of unfolded over the last couple of years, I really was able to retroactively contextualize it and affirm that which at the time I just sort of knew to be what was happening. ANDREW: I think it's always interesting how different ways of knowing fit into these kinds of journeys, you know, there's— PAIGE: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: —there's the thing that we feel at the time, and then there's the sort of deeper moments of clarity that come later— PAIGE: Mmm. ANDREW: —that, then as you say, sort of trickle backwards, you know? PAIGE: Yeah. ANDREW: And, you know, like when I got initiated in the Orisha tradition, one of the things that they talked about was the fact that these spirits had been with me since childhood, you know, guiding me and looking out for me, and, you know, it's like, I mean I grew up in small town Ontario— PAIGE: Mmmhmm! ANDREW: It's not something that I expected, you know? And yet I knew that the influence of spirit was there for a long time, so. PAIGE: Yeah, exactly. ANDREW: Yeah. PAIGE: [garbled] ANDREW: Yeah, it's always a challenge, you know, because I run a store, and because it's open, you know, I deal with anybody off the street a lot, people often arrive with such, like, concrete ideas of what's going on? PAIGE: Mmm. ANDREW: And I'm almost like, whoa, slow down! Slow, let's find out, let's look, let's see what it is now, maybe so, right? And then let's explore and verify and deepen that understanding, and, you know, and then sort of, and then, and then we'll get to that moment that you're talking about where it starts to congeal until you can see what the actual story is. PAIGE: Yeah. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. PAIGE: Definitely, there's almost like a detective kind of element to it where you, you're gathering your evidence, you're observing, but you're trying not to judge and just be like, okay, I'm just going to be with what this is, what is this? ANDREW: Yeah. PAIGE: And what is my, what are my extra senses telling me about this that I might not be able to verify yet, with actual evidence, but I'm just going to be with that and see how it plays out over time. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. Yeah, exactly. PAIGE: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: So, how does the art fit into it for you? PAIGE: Ohhhhh, the art. That's something as well as the spirit that's just always been there, but it's been a little bit more clearly defined through the years, because it's a little bit more—it's easier to kind of contextualize art, and I come from a family of artists. I don't necessarily come from a family of shamans, so I always had the artistic context for my life that enabled me to really dig into that and to have that as this support and this means of exploring my experience. Art was always something you could turn to, to dig into that, and it took me until college to find really my medium and my happy place. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. PAIGE: I was extremely fortunate. I studied at the University of Massachusetts, in my home state, and it just so happened that one of the professors there was a renowned watercolor artist named Richard Yarde, who has since passed, rest in peace. He was an absolute master of the craft, and really taught me a lot about the medium and created a space for me to really say wow, this is what this is for me, and it was just like that with the tarot. Tarot was not my first divination tool, the I Ching was my first divination tool. ANDREW: Hmm. PAIGE: My mother taught me to throw the I Ching as a teenager, but when I encountered the tarot, as a fine artist, I was like, oh, man, this is it! This is the stuff, right here! ANDREW: Yeah, yeah! PAIGE: Words and pictures and symbols? Sign me up! ANDREW: I'm down! PAIGE: Mmm! So down! ANDREW: Yeah! PAIGE: [laughs] And then realizing that I'd been painting like a watercolorist all those years, but I didn't have the skills with the medium, ‘cause it's a very difficult medium. ANDREW: Yeah. PAIGE: Notoriously so, but, with the confidence of a great master behind me, to explore that, get to know that, and then take it from there, kind of, so, watercolor has always been my primary medium, since then, and—when you were talking earlier about all the different things that you do, and the different ways we can kind of understand that for ourselves, the first thing I thought of was fine art, was how, even though you might have your medium that you work in, and your type of work you do, I tend to be a portrait artist, I tend to be a fairly figurative illustrative artist, but I get a lot of influence from other disparate art branches, I guess, and artists who've gone before, and engaging with other artists as ancestors of spirit has been one of the things that's really bridged the gap for me between the visual arts and the spiritual arts, the sacred arts. Recently, here in Salem, there's an exhibit at the Peabody Essex Museum on Georgia O'Keefe… ANDREW: Uh-huh. PAIGE: …for example, and it's a very unique exhibit. It looks at her as a sort of icon of modern style, is the phrase they're using, so it's not just her art but also photographs of her, also her clothes that she made, her shoes that she wore, her jewelry that she wore, and piecing together this narrative of the unified, not only the art she was making but the way she lived her life all cohesing together in this— ANDREW: Mmmhmm. PAIGE: —in this beautiful tapestry of existence that really spoke to me as both a visual artist and a spiritual artist, if that makes sense. ANDREW: It does! I mean, I think that, you know, this sort of notion of, I mean, my friend Fabeku would call it lineage, right? PAIGE: Yes, yes! ANDREW: And like, I, I think of, I don't think of a lot of artists as part of my lineage, but I like really strongly identify with both sort of Dali and Andy Warhol as sort of— PAIGE: Oh, yeah… ANDREW: —profound influences, you know, and I find that I turn to that at different times to sort of reconnect with what does it mean to be an artist? you know, and sometimes, in some cases, what does it mean to be sort of like a wild artist, or you know, this sort of out there on the edges of, like, where art and life and context and style and all of these things coalesce, right? PAIGE: Yeah! ANDREW: And they all have symbolic power that could be accessed in one way or another, you know? PAIGE: Mmmhmmm. ANDREW: You know, and I think that there are those artists that really bring that forward in a way, that makes a lot of sense for me, and it reminds me to sort of allow that to continue to unfold in my own life, you know? PAIGE: Yeah, absolutely! ANDREW: Yeah. I always find it interesting how art, and artists find their way, you know? I started out, I went to, I used to paint figuratively, and then I went to art school and did a lot of postmodern sculpture— PAIGE: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: —and then I was basically like, screw all that business, I HATE it. PAIGE: [laughing] ANDREW: And then I didn't make art for a long time. PAIGE: Mmmmmmm. ANDREW: And then I got back into painting, with like wash and stuff, and going back to, you know, very figurative stuff, and then, starting maybe about five years ago, I realized as I was like looking for like, less and less hairs on my brush so I could make finer and finer details, I was like, I want to change this direction up, I want to shake it up, and so I started moving into a much more open and exploratory kind of way, and you know, so, I made some art for a show that's opening in Elora, in Ontario next week, on the tarot card The Lovers— PAIGE: Ohhh… ANDREW: You know it's by Shelley Carter, so, who did the Elora Tarot deck, and is a wonderful tarot person, and artist, and previous guest of the show, and when I showed the work to her and a few other people, they reminded them of like Basquiat matte, so, it's just like a long journey from, you know, sort of figurativeness to this very sort of loose and colorful and intense and accidental work that you know is really fun. And I've gone, I've also gone digital… PAIGE: Ohhh… ANDREW: …so I make all my work on my iPad, because I found that having kids made this sort of convenient excuse, I can never get to making art, I'm like, I have an iPad, I can get a stylus, I can do something, you know? PAIGE: Mmmhmmm. ANDREW: So. But, yeah. So that's definitely an area where the art is the journey for me in some ways. That's where my journey happens, because it's definitely, it's rarely a thing that I sit down and think about what it's gonna be, I just sit down and start working, and then I allow stuff to emerge, so. PAIGE: Oh, that's lovely. Mmmhmm. I'm fascinated by the different ways that artists make art. ANDREW: Yeah, for sure. PAIGE: Endless permutations. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. PAIGE: Mmmhmm. I've recently, just very recently, relocated to Salem, and one of the first things I did upon moving in was to establish a weekly art night with some local friends, none of whom are very serious visual artists, but, so, therefore watching them work has really shaken things up for me… ANDREW: Yeah. PAIGE: …has been something wonderful and seeing how they go about their art-making with no formal training, with no expectations for themselves, with like a self-styled fine artist, they're just having fun and making marks on paper and that's been a nice shake-up for me. ANDREW: Yeah. Yeah, I think it's always, it's really interesting to sort of have those opportunities to see different ways of working and different people's approaches and stuff. PAIGE: Yeah. ANDREW: You know, I made a tarot deck last year, which is coming out later this year, so a lot of that in the end became very like, shut up, sit down, and make art. [laughs] To get ‘em done! Twenty-two cards to go, 18 cards to go, you don't feel like it, too bad, make the art! You know? PAIGE: [laughing] Mmmhmm. ANDREW: And it's the thing that I used to think would really kind of quash my inspiration or creativity, but you know, for me, showing up means everything else that wants to come out will show up too, you know, and so… PAIGE: Exactly! ANDREW: …and I think that, that, that, it's something that I didn't really understand previously, you know? Just sort of pushed through that process really brought that out in a way that has permanently I think changed my relationship to making stuff, so. PAIGE: Mmm, that's beautiful! Yeah…What I've been finding lately is in order to get myself pysched up for the big project I'm working on whenever I go to the studio, ‘cause this is a big year for me in working on my own tarot decks as well, to take that pressure off myself a little bit I'll start the day by working on some kind of fun, quote unquote “throwaway” project. ANDREW: Yeah. PAIGE: Some text art, or some pop culture-based art, or something just for me, or a gift for a friend, and just kind of like working those muscles out, you know. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. PAIGE: And it's been wonderful fun and seeing the little things that came out as a result of my warm-up exercises, it's some of my favorite stuff I've ever made! ANDREW: Mmmhmm. PAIGE: Funny that happens, sometimes. ANDREW: Exactly, exactly. I think that, you know, we need to take things seriously, but we need to like, not be serious about them while we're taking them seriously! [laughs] PAIGE: [laughing] Exactly!!! ANDREW: For sure. So, where were you before you moved to Salem? PAIGE: Let's see, I moved around a bit. Right before Salem, I was in Brooklyn… ANDREW: Yeah. PAIGE: …for a year, and before that I was out, I spent nine months as a hermit in the woods of far western Massachusetts, just hermiting, completely out, living all, completely alone, making art, figuring some stuff out, and before that I was in San Francisco for about five years, and had the most wonderful time. That's where my first shaman sickness happened, that's where I started my business, that's where a lot of really important moving forward stuff happened for me, and as well, that's where art started to happen for me again. I stopped making art for a little bit after I graduated from school, I was living in England, and having one of those periods… I've noticed in my life, my art will go through these phases where I'll be just sort of absorbing, I'll be in a place, like for me England was so full of experience, I didn't have time to make art, I was too busy soaking it in, and then I left England, moved to California, and started making art about everything that I had just seen and done. ANDREW: Right. Yeah. PAIGE: And, it didn't hurt that in the city I was living with my elderly artist aunt, who is one of the most prolific artists I've ever met, and she's, you know, a full-time artist… ANDREW: Yeah. PAIGE: …the amount of work she made was just phenomenal, and the amount of exploration she was willing to do was phenomenal. So, getting in there with her and really cranking out work, and seeing what it looked like to really let yourself fail, at art, every day, was really inspirational, and really helped get my productivity levels up to the point where I was able to start my business and have things happening every day, and oh, it was such a journey, such a good time. ANDREW: [laughing] Yeah, it can't always be good, right, sometimes it's just like, ah, that was horrible, you know? PAIGE: [laughing] Mmmhmm. ANDREW: And sometimes, and sometimes like, I remember when I was creating my first deck, which was just a set of majors, and I was trying to do the High Priestess, and I was like… It was the one, like I think I did like 20 iterations of it before I finally realized what actually needed to go on, and I was like, oh, okay, that's the answer, I'm gonna now, now I can do it. And then once I started, something emerged, and it really was like a letting go, you know? PAIGE: Yeah. ANDREW: For me, I was doing… The premise of my first deck is what happens just before what we're accustomed to seeing, and how does that influence and help us understand the card, right? PAIGE: Oh, I love that. ANDREW: Why did the Fool leave his house, right? Why did the Emperor, what did—what does the Emperor do before they get on the throne, right? And what was the High Priestess doing before, you know, she sat there, you know, in contemplation, right? And, and I was, I kept trying to draw her face, and in the end, what I realized was that the thing that the High Priestess does, even though it's already such an inward card, that she's even more inward before that, you know, and so I ended up drawing the back of her facing her altar, and praying, and sitting, and contemplating spirit directly, right? It was just like, it was one of those things, and I was like, what does her face look like, what's her expression, why is she doing what she's doing, right? And then in the end it was like, I don't know, I have no idea what her face looks like. PAIGE: [laughs] ANDREW: You know? And it was that kind of giving that up that allowed it to unfold, to become what I thought was really great in the end, so. PAIGE: Mmmhmm. That right there, that's it, that's the, that's one of, for me, the intersection between the fine art and the shamanism, really came to life, was, the shamanism allowed me to listen even more closely to the art that wanted to come out and not to impose my will as Creator, but to just let it come through me, and just to listen, and to treat it as a living spirit thing that wants to get physical form. It started to flow so much better, with my own tarot decks that I'm working on. Now it's not me Trying To Come Up with the Best Idea, I'm just letting it tell me what it is. ANDREW: Yeah, yeah, for sure. Let me get my smarts on and I'll make something really great, right? PAIGE: [laughing] Exactly! ANDREW: I look back at, there's an abandoned project that might get resurrected in a new form, but I started this sort of gnostic kabbalistic esoteric deck and it's not bad, like there's nothing wrong with it, but it wasn't entirely alive either… PAIGE: Yeah…. ANDREW: Because it was very, very structured and intellectual, you know, and— PAIGE: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: And there are other decks, I mean, I think the Toth deck, and like the Hermetic Tarot and stuff, they walk that line where they're still alive, and they have those layers of symbolism, but when I was working on this deck it never got there, right? It was very mathematical, in its way, you know, and that kind of didn't work out very well in the longer run of that arc, so, yeah, we'll see. I'm curious how moving around has impacted your shamanic stuff, you know? Are you a shaman of place, or do the spirits just follow you wherever you go and adapt? PAIGE: I'd say a little bit of both. The spirits of the land are very much an important part of my practice and my experience, and it's like… This is probably an imperfect metaphor, but it's a little bit like being non-monogamous in romantic relationships, which is my natural bent anyway, and so I have these deep important relationships with very different spirits of land, with the U.K., with San Francisco, with New England where I'm from and I'm living again, and, to have come back to New England, after having been to all these other places and really developed this intense deep relationship with those spirits of land has been wonderful. The northern shore of Massachusetts is a very unusual place. I don't know exactly why, but it is, and everyone seems to agree, everyone who's been here, lived here, is like yup, this is weird, this place is weird, there's a lot of weirdos here, we're uniquely weird, but there's something about having left and come back with more shamanic knowledge that is ELECTRIC, and I'm still figuring that out, but I love all the spirits of land, and I maintain my identity as a traveler very strongly, so that I'm keeping the dialogue open between myself and those lands, and a big part of my regular practice involves obviously grounding here in the land and grounding everything that I'm doing, all the offerings that I make, all the engagements I have, are tapped into the land here and anchored in the land here, or the land wherever I am, and that's always the first thing I do, move to a new place, ground and anchor in that land, get to know what it feels like under the surface— ANDREW: Yeah. PAIGE: —and I carry them with me in this way that's, I don't want to quite compare it to the Borg from Star Trek, but it's this sort of absorption— [laughing] ANDREW: Uh-huh. PAIGE: —into myself and into my practice that just feels right, and, it's like having friends all over the world, you know, I maintain those relationships even though it's long distance sometimes, I visit them when I can, I still communicate with them since I'm still here on Planet Earth and all those places are here on Planet Earth, I can still kind of long distance communicate, like “hey, what's up, California? how you doing? I'm good. How are you? Fine!” [laughs] ANDREW: Yeah. PAIGE: And seeding those relationships by physically mailing things there sometimes, you know, things to my people who are there, and it feels in a weird way like being a kind of secret agent, or something. ANDREW: Mmm. PAIGE: I'm not sure quite why, but I have that feeling of like, yeah, you know, I've got my, my agents in all the different places, and we're checking in, like, “How's the land doing? Oh, is it good? Oh, oh, yeah, yeah, I'll do some work for you long d-, okay, cool, cool, cool, yeah, we'll work on it, it's all happening, it's good, yeah!” and, I get a lot of loving flac from my mother about this. ANDREW: [laughing] Okay! PAIGE: She likes to tease me about being what she calls a “serial obsessive.” You know, you get hyper-fixated on an interest and you just sort of absorb everything you can from it, you absorb it into your very being, and then you kind of like internalize the vitality of that place, that thing, whatever it is, and then you move on, you know like, all right, I absorbed San Francisco, next, next stop New York! What [garbled]… ANDREW: Ba ba ba ba! All of Brooklyn! PAIGE: [laughing] ANDREW: So that you're like, it's like a spiritual Godzilla, just show up, eat the area, be like, ah, I got it, I'm ready, next! [laughing] PAIGE: [laughing] Yeah. ANDREW: That's fun. Yeah, I often, like, check in with the land, wherever I end up, you know? PAIGE: Yeah. ANDREW: I mean, not always, it depends on where I am and what I'm doing. Like I was away this last weekend, but we were just doing so much structured stuff that I was like, I don't have the time to sleep enough, let alone like, connect to what's going on, but when I'm in other places, you know, definitely, you know, and like, when I was in China last year, ‘cause one of the first things I did the first night I arrived was like, I'm like, I feel so disorientated, I just need to, like, spend some time connecting with the earth here so I can be here and then do what I need to do for the time that I'm around and working and stuff, so, you know, yeah. PAIGE: Oh yeah. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. I think it's interesting how spirits can kind of come and go, you know? Or like step forward and step back, you know? PAIGE: Yeah, absolutely! Absolutely! And I've noticed the same thing happens with tarot decks. I work with a lot of different decks; I have a huge stack of them right over here on the floor and they will step forward or step back as needed. Sometimes Tarot of the Cat People just wants to be all up in my face, and that's the only deck I'll read with for weeks or months, and then they'll be like, all right, I've said what I needed to say right now, move on, and it will step back and it will sort of stop, you know, working for me kind of, like, okay, all right, next, and another deck will step forward and be like, now I want to work with you right now. Or there'll be two of them vying for attention at the same time. And it's the same with the rest of my spirits. They'll step forward, step back. ANDREW: Do you feel the spirits of the cards, have a spirit? PAIGE: Oh absolutely, yeah. I feel that each card has a spirit and that each deck has its own spirit, definitely, mmmhmm. And they're like people, as well, you know, sometimes you meet people and you instantly click and it's amazing, and sometimes you meet people and you're like, I just do not get you. I can't read you, I don't know what you're about, you are a mystery to me. And there are decks like that for me. I'll look at them and be like, mmm, do not know what you're sayin'. Can't understand a word of what you're trying to say. ANDREW: Yeah, I feel, I run into people who have that way of, or that experience, and it's never really been my experience, so I'm always very curious about it, because for me, I have one spirit that helps me with reading the cards… PAIGE: Mmmhmmm. ANDREW: And, they've been around for the whole time I've been working with cards, but over time they've basically been like, no no no, this kind of deck, no no no, that deck. You know? And, so there's been this sort of, well, literally my guide came forward one time and said, “if you would like to give good readings, then read with the Tarot de Marseilles. If you don't care, do whatever you like. But that's where you're going to be better.” PAIGE: [laughing] ANDREW: And I was like, all right, and then it was this process of nailing down which deck was the most like the one that she read with when she was alive, and that was also a process of, okay, so it was the Marseilles, and then it was the Jean Noblet, and then it was this photo reproduction of the deck from the Bibliotechnique National in France that Joseph Peterson put out, and now she's like, that's, that is, it's not THE deck she had, but it is the closest that she thinks is left that I'll ever be able to get at. PAIGE: That is fascinating! ANDREW: And so, it's funny for me because, I mean I run a store, and I, you know, I teach lots of things, I deal with lots of different decks, kind of for other people and on other people's behalf, but for me, I'm kind of done. PAIGE: Yeah! ANDREW: You know when Joseph's deck came out, you know, I just took three of them and put them in the drawer, on top of the one that I was already reading with, because I was like, that's it, I need to make sure I have enough forever, you know? PAIGE: Mmmhmm, yeah! ANDREW: Yeah. PAIGE: Wow! ANDREW: Mmmhmm. PAIGE: That's so cool! ANDREW: So, with your approach though, do you feel like the decks themselves have an entity or a consciousness that you're interacting with? Or are they like the Borg, they're different units that are plugging into your central, you know, central shamanic hub as it were, and they're just kind of variable extensions of parts of your consciousness? PAIGE: That's a great question! I feel it may be a little bit of both. Ultimately my experience of the decks is as these sort of entities, these spirit entities, but those entities themselves feel like a bit of an amalgamation, you know, that are made up of the unique spirit of that deck, the sort of personality of the deck, which itself is made up of each of the cards, and each card has its own entity and own personality and its own spiritual, yeah, sense of beingness, which may be slightly different or very different depending on the different decks, but each card has its [inaudible]. I can compare it to astrology in a way, you know you're looking at, everyone has the planet Mars in their chart, but each planet in a different sign has a different flavor, it feels different, it acts differently, it will come across a different way, it will interact with the rest of those planets and signs and houses in what ultimately equates to a unique personality, a unique expression of being. ANDREW: Sure. PAIGE: And, and yeah, that is very much how I encounter the decks, is like people, which is what we are, we're amalgamations of our parents, our lineage, everything we've ever done and seen, as well as our own unique flair and flavor. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. For sure. PAIGE: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: Yeah. Neat. Yeah, I'm always curious because, for me and my practice, there's a sort of distinction that I draw between what are sort of object concrete entities in their own right, and what are these sort of other things that are constructs, or topography, or convenient symbol and language that these entities or even parts of my consciousness or unconsciousness might sort of pop on to sort of deliver messages or frame the conversation, so I love sort of thinking about these things because I'm always very curious about what's, what it is that's going on when people are working in other styles or other approaches, you know? So. Yeah. PAIGE: I suppose my style is very animistic, which has always been my world view and always been my experience of the world, even as a child, things are alive, and they talk to me, and they engage with me, and as a child it upset me very much when people didn't treat objects with the same respect that they treated people, certain objects, anyway. I don't know if it was across the board, all objects, all the time, but for the most part, things that I could tell were, had a force of some kind attached to them. It would deeply upset me when people did not treat them that way, but of course, as a child I did not have the vocabulary to share that with other children, explain to them why it upset me that you disrespected me and this object by cavalierly tossing it about. “How dare you, child?” ANDREW: “How dare you, that rock, it had a lot of things to say!” PAIGE: [laughing] “No, I'll give you another rock!” “Yeah, but that was my friend, that rock was my friend! You threw my friend away!” [outraged sound] I remember one time as a child, we were, our class was on a field trip to the high school. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. PAIGE: And it was shortly after the movie The Indian in the Cupboard had come out, and the VHS tapes came with a little plastic Indian from the movie, the replica, and I just was captivated. This little plastic man was like a friend to me, and I carried him in my pocket everywhere I went, and one of the bullies in my class, we were in the bathroom, all taking our bathroom break, and she grabbed it out of my hands and threw it in the air just as someone flushed a toilet and came out of the stall and down it went, and was flushed away. And all of us just stood there with our mouths open like, I can't believe that just happened. What are the odds that that's where it would land? And I had no, I was completely flabbergasted, I had no words to explain the depth of the hurt that had just been done to me. They were like, I'll buy you a new one, whatever; I'm like, no, you don't understand, that guy, that was my guy! ANDREW: That was the one. PAIGE: That was the one! I don't care if it's an identical plastic mold; it's not the same. ANDREW: Yeah. And there are those things, right? PAIGE: Yeah. ANDREW: It's funny, it's interesting to me too, because there are those things that I work with and use spiritually, you know, like I often carry like a crystal or other things that I'm kind of working with at a given time, and those things definitely, some of them, they all have an aliveness to them that I work with for sure. Some of them I get so attached to, and some of them, when they end up going away, I'm just like, ah, whatever. Like, you know, eh, your time is done, you wanted to be elsewhere or what have you, right, and I'm like, ah, it's fine. And then other things, like when they kind of, you know, get shuffled somewhere, or you know, like take them out and realize it's time to have a break, and then they resurface, and it's like, wow, how did I ever even stop working with this energy, you know? I used to work with St. Expedite a lot… PAIGE: Oh, yeah! ANDREW: And I recently found, I mean I always kind of knew where it was, but, recently sort of came across a painting that I had done of him. PAIGE: Cool. ANDREW: And immediately it started talking to me. And I was like—and it wasn't mad, it wasn't like, dude, you've been hiding me away, it's like all right, I'm ready, you're ready, let's go, let's do some more stuff together. I'm like, all right, let's do it. PAIGE: I love that. Mmmhmm! ANDREW: Yeah. PAIGE: That is a blessing of getting older, was learning like, okay, I might misplace this, but it will come back when the time is right. ANDREW: Yeah. PAIGE: As a child, you know, not knowing that this sort of totemic energy attached to that toy, very, was, could possibly return to me in another form, that it was not intrinsically tied to this little plastic molded toy. As a child, you don't have the context for that. But as an adult spiritual practitioner realizing okay, you know, que sera sera. ANDREW: Yeah, there's not only one way in which that energy can come through to you, right? PAIGE: Mmmhmm, exactly. ANDREW: There's not only one place or one kind or one…yeah, for sure. PAIGE: And it might be in the best interest for it to step back for awhile, for both of you, you know, and then come back again and have you realize, oh wow! Yeah! Your value is so important to me—and having that time away really makes you feel that. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. For sure. Yeah. Do you do a lot of plant ally stuff too? Do you have plant allies that you're working with? PAIGE: Oh, yes, oh yes. ANDREW: Uh-huh? PAIGE: I've always, it's always been, it's not my greatest strength, and it's been a source of great frustration to me, my whole life, because my mother is a gardener and she has quite the green thumb. She can make anything grow. And I do not seem to have inherited that gift. So the living plants in my life that I work with tend to be wild. Wild plants are my main spirit allies. And as well, I work with tea. Tea is my guy. The plant, the [garbled] sense is plant as well as tea [garbled] and other herbs brewed as tea both with the tea plant and on their own and that's been something that has always been tied to my magical and spiritual practice. The year that I really got involved in witchcraft, as a young person, was the same year that I got introduced to tea. ANDREW: Right. PAIGE: Almost within a few months of each other. ANDREW: Yeah. PAIGE: And it's, they were very present, as well, in my shaman sickness. I had ingested some spirit allies, some plant spirit allies that really were carrying the physical aspect of the illness for me, and shifting that perspective. And it's something that I've been deepening in the past couple of years, but is endlessly fascinating to me, and part of what's helped deepen that is creating friendships with some really talented plant shamans and plant workers. In unpacking, I just uncovered my flying ointments from Sarah Anne Lawless, which are some of my favorite tools to work with. It fascinates me the way that plants affect different people different ways, depending on your body chemistry. I know people who cannot drink tea after maybe 2 or 3 pm because the caffeine will keep them up. ANDREW: Yeah. PAIGE: I can drink a pot of black tea at midnight and be fine. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. PAIGE: No problem. ANDREW: And that's also not uncommon among people who have that ADHD kind of thing, right? PAIGE: Yeah exactly, it almost works the opposite, sometimes, or it's just like meh, no problem. ANDREW: Whatevs. PAIGE: Caffeine? Don't know her. Never met her. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. [laughs] PAIGE: [laughing] ANDREW: That's awesome. It's really interesting how we all have places or kinds of things that open more easily to us, you know? PAIGE: Yeah. ANDREW: Like the, whether it's a particular plant, or whether it's, you know, plants versus minerals versus you know, in your case, pigments and water, versus you know, whatever, right? I think that we have these sort of natural inclinations, and, you know, I mean, just like in our astrology charts, sort of sorting them out and finding out where those fortes and good places to start and so on can be so helpful, you know? PAIGE: Oh yeah, absolutely, and one of the things I do often with clients when I'm working with clients who are seeking to understand their own spiritual gifts better, is looking at your childhood. What were you drawn to as a child? For me, it was animals. Animals was my jam. And so now, as an adult, I find not coincidentally that a lot of the shamanic work I do is animal spirit totems, helping spirits who are specifically animals. Do a lot of animal retrieval, and it's one of the easiest things for me to do, it takes, it can take maybe 30 seconds, to go on a shamanic journey and retrieve an animal helping spirit. It is such an easy flow for me, whereas plants and the language of plants is something much more private and personal that I really have to consciously work on and deepen. Except for that small handful of plant allies that are just like, you, me, let's do this. ANDREW: Let's go! Ride or die! PAIGE: [laughing] Exactly! ANDREW: Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah, I am one of those people, I have a very green thumb, so I can grow all sorts of stuff and you know. Actually, the pomegranate plant that we have at the store just grew its first pomegranate, which was super exciting, so you know, it's, yeah. Definitely good, you know? And I love to, I spent a lot of time in my childhood, I lived sort of on the edge of town where it was sort of mostly forest between our place and the next place… PAIGE: Lovely. ANDREW: And so, I spent a lot of time in the woods, just kicking around, playing games with my friends, or just hanging out, you know? And it's something I love to do now and near the store there's nice ravines that run through Toronto… PAIGE: Mmm. ANDREW: And I would just go in there, and hang out, and stuff happens, it's wonderful, and they just start talking, and you know, yeah. PAIGE: Oh, yeah. The forest! Oh, what a magical place! That's been one of my favorite things about coming back to New England, the woods of New England are really important for me. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. PAIGE: Really special. Today happens to be 19 years to the day since the first group ritual I ever did. ANDREW: Wow. PAIGE: Blue moon, January 1999, I invited a couple of girls from school over to my house, and one of them, her mother was, must have been Wiccan, or something, and she kind of taught us how to do your basic circle casting, calm the quarters, kind of thing. We had a little ritual. We went around the circle, went around the table, took turns saying nice things about each other and then after some round blue frosted scones, my mother drove us to the woods, and we climbed this abandoned stone tower that's in the middle of the woods by the golf course in my home town. And I have some photographs, I'm so glad I have actual photographs of us on that tower, under the moon with the moon in the background, these little girls, having a great time, and those woods really held it and anchored it, for that to be the ending of our first ritual ever. And we loved it so much we were like, you know what, let's just, let's do this again next month? On the full moon? How about that? For a bunch of 11-year-olds, that was a pretty good commitment. We managed it for maybe six solid months, meeting every full moon and those woods really were the catalyst. They were the… ANDREW: Amazing. PAIGE: …the container for that. It was so—mmm. There's something about being here and then the trees of this land that's just like yep. These are like my grandparents. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. PAIGE: They took care of me! Thanks, guys! ANDREW: [laughs] I love it. I definitely love it! So if you're listening, go find your trees, go hang out with them! [garbled, both talking at once] Yeah, spend some time with it, right? PAIGE: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: Yeah. The last few years whenever I go to New York and go to Reader's Studio, which is a conference there, at the place where they were having it, there were these cherry trees out front, and they'd usually be blossoming then, so that would be just like all the flowers on the ground… PAIGE: Love it. ANDREW: And, you know. After, like a few days with like 200 other people doing readings around you and stuff, I'd just be like, overwhelmed! And I would just go out there and, you know, stand there and, last year, I was standing under the tree and the wind came and swirled around me and lifted all those petals up and… PAIGE: Ohhhhh. ANDREW: There was like this sort of bath of those flowers and the tree and I had my hands on it just grounding myself and stuff. I'm like, I'm ready for more, let's go! You know? It can be so wonderful. PAIGE: Oh! That's beautiful. Oh yeah. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. Well. It has been delightful chatting with you. For people who want to follow your orbit and see your art and other wonderful things that you're up to, where should they go? Where are you hanging out online? PAIGE: Well, you can find me on social media, @tarotandtea. You can also find me on Instagram @paigezaferiou, just my name, and at paigezaferiou.com. And that's Paige with an I, and Zaferiou is Z A F E R I O U, and you can remember to spell that because it has all the vowels in alphabetical order, A E I O U. ANDREW: And we'll put a link in the show notes in case “it spells just like it sounds” doesn't quite work out. PAIGE: [laughing] ANDREW: Awesome. Well thank you so much Paige, it's been wonderful. PAIGE: Thank you so much for having me, Andrew, it's been such a pleasure. ANDREW: Thank you, as always, for listening. I hope you've really enjoyed it. A big thanks to the lovely human beings who have put some wonderful reviews on Itunes for the podcast. Please do consider supporting the Patreon. You know I sound like a PBS ad, but seriously, even a dollar helps. It all adds up towards being able to make all sorts of exciting things happen, both for yourself and for others. So head on over to Patreon.com/thehermitslamp, or use the link in the show notes. Talk to you soon. Bye bye.
Andrew L. Schmidt is a Director of Trollhunter (DreamWorks Animation). With a 20-year experience in the industry, he has a long list of credits to his name: The Iron Giant, Monsters, Inc; Finding Nemo, The Incredibles, Ratatouille and many more. Andrew has worked at studios like Amblimation, DreamWorks, Warner Brothers and Pixar. Guillermo del Toro's Trollhunters is his first directing credit. For complete show notes visit http://www.allanmckay.com/76/ Andrew L. Schmidt on IMDB: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm2112570/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1 Trollhunters on IMDb: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1734135/ Andrew's talk at IAMAG Master Class: https://vimeo.com/ondemand/iamagmasterclasses17/ Andrew Schmidt quoted in the New Yorker's article The Fun House: Life at Pixar: http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2011/05/16/the-fun-factory Episode 76 - Interview with Andrew L. Schmidt NOTES [-1:21:11] Hey! This is Allan. Just a quick thing to check out: www.vfxrates.com. This is a website that I created to solve a massive problem that we all have: What should we be charging? This is the giant mystery that we all have and most people feel very uncomfortable talking about is what we should charge as a freelance rate. And the worst part is when we go apply for a job and if we ask for too much, we risk alienating the employer and never getting that call back. Whereas we play it safe and ask too little, we not only get taken advantage of, but on top of that, we leave a lot of money on the table, which potentially over a span of a few years, can add up to 10's of thousands of dollars. [-1:20:32] So this is chance for you to go to the website www.vfxrates.com. Put in bits of information, like your city, your experience, your discipline, software, little things that are important, to figuring out what you should be charging as your base rate when you're talking to an employer. This is based on a lot of experience, but more importantly, it's based on the braintrust of the industry experts from different fields that we've pulled together to collect a very accurate way to generate what you should be charging. [-1:20:00] The best part is not just what you should be charging -- but what you could be charging by tweaking a few things: how you present yourself, building a brand, learning to negotiate better. Also, there are factors like building an irresistible reel, learning to approach employers the correct way; learning how to network. I want to share all of this information for free! Go to www.vfxrates.com -- and find out what you should be charging for your hourly VFX rate. [-1:19:31] Alright, welcome to a brand new Episode. It is with Andrew Schmidt who is a good buddy of mine. I've known him for three years. We met at the very first IAMAG Master Class in Paris. Andrew is a super great guy. I was really excited to do this because Andrew has a vast amount of experience within the industry at DreamWorks, [also at] Pixar for quite some years. Before that he worked on projects like one of my favorite movies The Iron Giant, Prince of Egypt. What I've loved is that each year that I've attended the IAMAG Master Class, Andrew's talks have been some of my favorite because they have so much more substance. Usually, they take you on a bit of a journey through his career, his insights, but more importantly, a lot of the life lessons he's learned on his journey. I thought it would be really great to talk to him because not only is he able to talk about his humble beginnings and how he got started but also about some of the transitions he's experienced recently. [-1:18:03] In case I haven't mentioned it yet, he is one of the directors of Guillermo del Toro's Trollhunters for DreamWorks Animation. He's also worked on some of the amazing classics that we all love like The Incredibles, Finding Nemo; Monsters, Inc.,; Up and on, and on, and on. We also talked about Family Guy because he contributed to its Season 1. We talk about a lot of stuff. I knew this would be a killer! [-1:17:29] One thing that I will mention is that the audio quality on this Episode isn't the greatest, and I apologize for that. However, what I recommend to you is to not focus of the level of quality of the audio -- but focus on the level of quality of the content! I always take pride in having great quality to my Episodes. [-1:16:53] If you enjoy this talk, I believe you can get Andrew's IAMAG Master Class talk. I'll leave a link if you want to access that. I think it's $10. And of course, in the show notes, you can find more information about him: www.allanmckay.com/76. [-1:16:31] Allan: Do you want to give a bit of a background, how you found your passion for animation? Andrew: Yeah. I am not one of those people who watched cartoons thinking that's what I want to do. I never studied it in school. My interest was in film and adventures: Frankenstein, Dracula. I wanted to get into visual effects. And that lead to a small college in Michigan. I didn't do well academically in the beginning. And that lead to taking some art classes. That was in my late teens, early 20s. They had a fine arts program there, so I studied fine arts. I started taking film classes, matte painting and things like that. Touched on some animation. That was just the beginning. I had a dear friend who had gone abroad. She was traveling in Scotland and came across a 2D studio which was starting called Amblimation, which was a Steven Spielberg studio. So I finished college with a visual arts degree. I did construction for a year. Then Jamie Bolio called saying, “Hey, I'm in London. I'm working at a studio here and I'm looking for people.” So I sent in my live drawing portfolio. So I packed two suitcases and moved to London and started working at A Amblimation. [-1:13:29] That studio folded into DreamWorks. A bunch of people moved to LA and formed DreamWorks. That's how I ended up in Los Angeles, back in '96. [-1:13:14] Allan: I've been doing a little of bit of 3D. I think I started doing my first big project in '96. Such a long time ago! I love that. You were okay at Amblimation. That's where a lot of the animators came from [at DreamWorks]. I'm just kind of curious, what's the hierarchy like when it comes to in-betweeners and key framers? Back then, if you were more of an in-betweener, how many key framers were typically in the studio? Because typically, these days, a lot of them get outsourced. Andrew: Yeah. There was typically a team for a character and a supervisor. So there was a supervising animator and several other animators. They handled the bulk of the work. I don't know, maybe [there were] 5-6 in-betweeners. [-1:11:31] Allan: Initially, for you to supply your live drawing portfolio, was it pretty easy to get your foot in the door that way? Or was it more luck? Let's say for anyone else who was applying, what were the key things that got you in? Obviously, talent would be one of them. Andrew: I think it's a little bit of everything. It's not going to be one thing. My live drawing portfolio was pretty strong. Also, this was at the time there some films [were doing really well]. So they were really looking for people from all over. So there was the luck of that. Then there was me, on top of being prepared, being persistent. And then there was knowing someone in the studio. He could say, “I know this guy. He's pretty good.” So there were few different things. [-1:10:05] Allan: And I think that you had a plan. Half the time, it comes down to that. Especially in animation! Especially back when things were booming. Getting some mainstream feature animation, with key players like Disney producing all the content. You never did any short films early on in your career, did you? Andrew: No. I admire people who have done that. But I didn't. I don't know why. I've been in the industry and working non-stop soon after I got in. [-1:09:16] Allan: That's a good problem to have! What is your opinion: Do you think it's a good idea for those starting a career to look into doing short films, as a way to build [it]? So not necessarily for the sake of passion but more because this is something that would help establish them? Andrew: In my personal opinion, I think so, yes. I don't know what Pixar's hiring practices are now. I can talk about what they used to be. That's what impresses me now: You have to show them some professional work or student work that's quite strong. The level of dedication that it takes to do that -- it's really impressive. [-1:08:08] Allan: I think you're right. From the hiring standpoint, it shows that they're able to go through an entire production, wear many hats, and figure out what their strengths are. I definitely gives complete transparency about who they are and what they can do. Andrew: You can even tell if they're a strong storyteller. [-1:07:23] Allan: Cool! This is such an open-ended question: What do you think the industry is like these days, compared to back then? What are some of the big difference you found, how much digital animation has changed from '95 (which is Toy Story and that was a big establishment). Obviously, it's boomed so much and changed so much over the years. How do you think it compares to now? Andrew: Some of the talent now is incredible! Just at a student reel level, it's amazing how [talented] some people are! But that's a good question. I was a junior artist back then. [-1:06:30] Allan: I'll say this, you're right. You go to CG Talk or Art Station a few years ago and the stuff that people are putting out there as a student reel is depressing for me. It's just like, “Holy crap!” When we were starting out, we would have, like, POV-Ray and these really crappy, difficult to use programs. These days, you can open the package and get the feel for it pretty quickly. Back then, you'd have to render something just to see what it would look like. Animation, in my opinion, is such an oversaturated industry. And because of that, when you're applying for work, you're going to have to find some ways to stand out. Otherwise, you're going to get lost in the noise of so many talented people. Earlier on, it was quite difficult to find where there was work. Obviously, now there is quite a lot of work. So that's the advantage. Andrew: Yeah. I think you make a really good point. There are some drastic changes. Nowadays, just a demo could look fantastic. [-1:04:58] Allan: Touching on that subject, are there any major misconceptions that people have in their head. Like using the software packages that are the best and if you are not using those, you're not going to do as well. Or, you have to go to school to get a job in the industry. Whatever kind of BS that people typically think is the way, and it's completely opposite. Andrew: It's the person behind the camera who's getting the shot. Obviously, they use some tools to get the shot. [-1:04:08] Allan: There is a pretty famous story about Stephen King doing a Q&A after a presentation. Someone raised their hand and asked, “What pen do you write with?” Do you have any advice for people starting out? Ways to make themselves stand out? Andrew: I think there is something to be said -- one of the things that I've discovered while at Pixar -- is finding your strength and building your reel with that strength: to a certain type of acting, or action shots, things like that. Back at Pixar, people had the breadth of knowledge and experience I haven't had. You just need to have a talent. You need to be good at something. You need to keep finding your weaknesses and try to strengthen [in those areas]. I didn't understand a lot about storytelling, so I took a course: about writing and building a scene. My art background was in fine arts. Then I started doing animation which is illustration. I didn't know anything about illustration, so I took some courses to fill in those gaps. I think that's something that you can do. You don't need to be a jack of all trades. But if you're trying to build a career, you're going to need a lot of bricks. [-1:01:31] Allan: I think that's a very valuable advice. Lately, it's been coming up a lot. I'm going to segue to a Tony Robbins' conversation I heard the other day about growth and reciprocity; self growing and giving back. A lot of people learn a lot and they switch off: I've got my bag of tricks. And that's where they stay. The ones who actually succeed, go through this ping-pong effect of growing then giving back [through] teaching ([which] is a form of processing information). Then growing again. If you keep looking for the next level, you stay hungry. Andrew: I was thinking about the Michael Caine book. He talked about it. What we do as artists, we're in a community, collecting things from other artists. But it's a community. A community is not about taking things from other people. There is certain amount of sharing you need to do as well. [-59:40] Allan: Absolutely! Looking at surrounding areas, I came up with a slightly tacky term: Your Trifecta. In other words, the three areas that compliment what you do the closest. If you do animation, you might want to look into comedy writing, acting, other areas. That's exactly it. With effects, we say it's scripting, lighting and compositing. Andrew: Maybe life drawing to understand motion. Allan: I even feel that with your career, it's better to be at the bottom of the barrel. You have buddies who pump you up and tell you how great you are. I'd rather people around people who push me up. Andrew: That's what it's about. There is a certain glass ceiling. The people are great, the projects are great. I just felt like I need to be out there. You're not going to grow if you don't push against your comfort zone. Sometimes, you just need to take a beating, figure out what you did wrong and not repeat the mistakes. You are not going to grow unless you get out there. [-56:25] Allan: I was watching one of Anthony Buordain's shows. He was back in San Francisco because he was finishing his Jiu-Jitsu training. Or it was BJJ. He decided to do a few episodes in that area. For you, you just decided you wanted to try boxing? How did that come about to be? I think it's really important for you to have an inkling for something different. Andrew: I've done martial arts throughout my life. I was a big Bruce Lee fan. A lot of that was from sitting at the computer a lot of the time. It was about this complacency in life and my career. I didn't want to [hit fifty] and be out of shape. I'm not quite sure what drew me to boxing. I guess I've always been interested in it, but didn't have the balls to go out and do it. I found a club that wasn't hardcore. I didn't want to take too many blows to my head. But part of that was about fear and facing that fear. And how I feel after I come out facing something I don't enjoy to do. And after a while, the tension of fear goes away and you begin to enjoy yourself. You push yourself in ways you didn't expect. [-53:31] Allan: Were there any differences you've noticed like clarity of thinking or feeling more pushed at work, more energy? Andrew: Well, I mean, I definitely got in shape. But there is also this mentality of this energy you get. You feel like you've accomplished something. Maybe it's an ego thing. Things that bothered me, that worried me, why not just do it. It shuts down the voice in my head: “You can't do that. You'll never be good at that.” It's easy to listen to that voice. Nothing bad is going to happen. It's not that “nothing bad is going to happen”. Nothing is going to happen! That's not a way to live a life. [-52:00] Allan: I guess it's a psychological wall that artists and entrepreneurs must face. You're the one taking risks. Psychologically, you're trained to stay with what's safe. Anytime a great opportunity comes up, you might be excited but bit by bit you start convincing yourself to stay safe. Everyone I consider successful, every time I ask if there was a place of risk, when everything in your life starts changing -- everyone gets a smile on their face because they can relate to that. For you, were there any massive breaks, where you struggled a bit but then grew into a new place. Andrew: Pixar definitely! It was heaven. It's a great place to learn and explore and it's very safe. I learned so much there. And I have friends there and I miss them! But then I was getting hungry. I think complacency is death to an artist. I was missing feeling challenged. I felt like a had a certain level of skills and I really wanted to put them to work. I was lucky that I didn't have kids, so I wasn't restricted financially. Someone gave me a really great advice: You need to find a pull, something that's going to get you to the other side, not just a push. That's where luck stepped in. Rodrigo Blaas who's been at Pixar for quite a while. He did a short film called Alma about a little girl and a doll short. Because of that film, Rodrigo got contacted by [Guillermo] del Toro. [Then] he asked me to go work with him. We jumped at the opportunity. He left Pixar to go to DreamWorks. That was my pull: It was my chance to work on something edgy, different stuff than what Pixar does. And I had a chance to direct! They were putting faith in me. I've directed some commercials. There was a chance I could've failed, but I couldn't pass it up. I left a very high paying job with bonuses. I took a pretty hefty pay cut, just to move in Los Angeles. But I found the work much more fulfilling, much more challenging. [-45:58] Allan: What was going through your mind at that time? I imagine it was pretty emotional. Andrew: Something like, “WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU DOING?!” Something like that. Allan: Yeah. There is no undo button for decisions like that. Was there a moment you decided it was the right move? Andrew: That was part of the thing that made make the move: I never had any doubt! I had some apprehension, I had some doubt. There was some nervousness about it. It was going to be a great project. [-45:13] Allan: We'll talk about DreamWorks in a moment. But I'd love to talk about some of the previous projects you've done. Prior to Pixar, you worked on Iron Giant. That was a classic and an important film. Andrew: I finished Prince of Egypt and I was preparing to work on The Road to El Dorado. There was some, I don't know, some resistance. I thought I had a decent reel. But a friend who was working on Iron Giant called me up, “Hey, man. You want to do this film?” I got a chance to become an animator. That was another chance for me to work on something that really pushed me. I was able to get some good scenes to animate and make some good connections. [-42:25] Allan: I have to say, I had no idea you worked on Family Guy. What was that experience like? Andrew: It was bizarre and I enjoyed it too! The first season was interesting. At the time, the animation was getting sent to Korea to get animated. I'm guessing it's easier at this time. It was fun. [-41:28] Allan: Going on to Pixar, it's a pretty monumental part of anyone's work history. What was it like when you initially approached them? Because they've just finished Toy Story. Monsters, Inc was their next project, right? Andrew: It's so long ago, I'm trying to place it. I think Monsters, Inc was their third film, that's when I came on. Also because I worked with Brad, he knew my work. I had my third rejection letter then I got a call from Brett Varon I sent some of my stuff. One thing I've learned sometimes “no” from a studio doesn't mean “no”. The door is not open right now, but keep trying. I knocked again and this time the door opened. I didn't have any CG experience. [In] Prince of Egypt, I has some. I went through a 10-week training program. It took me about three years to feel good about CG. [-38:44] Allan: Yeah, what was it like for you to go from not having any CG experience at all to going into a whole new world? Once you learn one or two packages, you know all of them. For you, how intimidating was it? Andrew: It was confidence shaking. I mean, I really felt I was going to be fired. Pixar has a different mentality than any different studio. It just shakes your skill when you feel like your skills have reached a certain level but then there is a whole new skill. “I know I can do better than this! How do I do that?” But everyone else is struggling, also going through the same thing. [-37:04] Allan: And you said it took you three years to feel like you got it? Andrew: Yeah. Allan: During that time, was there a lot of friction? Andrew: I had many, many days of frustration. [-36:23] Allan: I think that's such a critical thing when you get those rejection letters, no doesn't mean you aren't good enough. It means keep trying. For me, it means that I just need to keep getting better. Even when I had that persistence, there were times I was going to give up. If anything, it's an endurance test for this industry. Because if you're going to quit -- you're just not right for this industry. This is a career, it's not a job. Andrew: You're looking to build and grow and that takes persistence. The first thing that hits you is: “I'm not good enough. They don't want me.” It brings up all that doubt. Sometimes it helps if the studio gives you some advice. Pixar used to do that. [-34:08] Allan: That's a good point. Were there any mentors that you've had around you? I feel that you can still get so much from those relationships. Are there people you look to for inspiration. Andrew: Oh, yeah! Kristof Serrand, early on. Trying animation, I remember I'd bring some work and he'd just flip through it and throw it into the trashcan. It was painful. He was just being honest: You can do better. He didn't just dismiss me. He gave me pointers. [-32:30] Allan: One thing you mentioned is working abroad. You're so well traveled. I think it's a critical thing. It recalibrates you. What's your opinion? How impactful is it on artists to travel and work in other cultures / countries? Andrew: I think it's vital. It's vital for human beings to learn about cultures and stories. When I went to Amblimation, it was multi-cultured. People of different nationalities and it was an eye opening experience. You learn how different everybody is, but how everyone is pretty much the same. We have the same motivations and desires. We realize we can relate to each other. We can learn to communicate better. Communication is what we do. We communicate an idea to put it on the screen. [-29:12] Allan: I think working in countries where your native language isn't spoken, you learn how to communicate. You've got to start how you can say something and how it can be misunderstood. It alienates you and adapt. You grow as a human being. Andrew: You're enriching yourself. [-27:53] Allan: We've both read Creativity, Inc. It was a fascinating book to read. That did get me excited to learn more about the culture of Pixar. I remember Digital Domain let of a thousand people after Titanic was done in 1996. It reinforces the mentality that this is a service-based industry. You are supplying a service. Pixar is one the most profitable companies on the planet and they're making their own content. ILM was a service providing industry. With you, guys, having that more family oriented mindset is really great. And that also means that every time the project is over, you don't lose what you've learned when the new team gets built. It's frustrating because you have to learn the same mistakes over and over and over. Andrew: Yeah, when you work with people for a long time, you learn their strengths, you learn their weaknesses, where they need to grow, where they see you can grow. There is something about it that's more efficient. I think it makes for better storytelling to keep people longer. [-25:39] Allan: What do you think were some of the things you took from one of the leading animation studios in the world? Were there a lot of things that carved out who you are? I love the story of the braintrust. You've got a director but you also have a support team that isn't going to tread on your toes; but they're there to help your vision be as strong as you can be. What was some of the stuff you took after that experience? Andrew: Ah, well, a lot of memories, of course, and friendships. Stayed in touch with a lot of people. Trollhunters is getting a lot of attention for its visual quality because it's a tv show. A lot of that comes from Rodrigo and myself. He's the showrunner and has done a lot of the shots. He wants to get good quality up there, not sell ourselves short. I can't stand that “It's good enough” mentality. I learned about getting good people around you, good team, and getting out of their way and allowing them to do what they do best. And giving them that support. You get a lot of friction jobs where people try to stop you from doing your best. Sometimes, the nature of production interferes with people getting stuff done. Pixar was about removing those roadblocks, so that creative people could do what they really do best. Allan: Take pride in their work. Andrew: Take pride in their work, and go the extra mile to get the ownership of what they are doing. [-22:36] Allan: That's always been my philosophy. Once the project is done, you can't change it. Even for the crappiest tv commercials I've done, I'll see stuff and be like, “Oh! They used the wrong element in comp!” Or they decided that would do. And I've gone through a phase too. It's only in the last six years that I've gotten the passion back. Once it's up there, you can never go back. It's part of history. Especially, when it's a project that's going to affect people. Andrew: It's better when people care about what they're doing. When they care, they put extra effort into it. I would get myself to care about it. [-20:40] Allan: With Trollhunters, you've been tied to that project for a while. I like the fact that whenever we've hung out, things have changed drastically every time. Three years ago, you were at Pixar but thinking about other options. The next time, you were working at DreamWorks. For you now, having spent two years on the project, how do you feel now? What are some of the challenges you're going through? Andrew: It's been great! I've learned so much! Yeah, constantly learning. I find that I am challenged. I get to use a lot of the skills that I've developed in writing, acting, animation, storytelling. I've never been admittedly a great decision maker. As a director, you've got no choice. You have to make decisions and there is a hundred of them. You have to get rid of the fear that you would be making a wrong choice, because chances are, you will. You have to learn to live with it, learn from it, correct it or let it go. It's been a great learning process for me. I don't work directly with Guillermo, he comes through and gives me some notes occasionally. I learn from my friend Rodrigo about camera, staging, composition. I view it as a chance to go to a directing school. [-17:48] Allan: Why go to a directing school, if you can learn on the job? That's great. With your team, what is it like having such a fresh new team of people to work on something as ambitious as this? Again, it's Netflix. Andrew: It's been a great experience. There is a certain excitement about the project. So people are pushing themselves to come up with great ideas. I like to keep those channels open. I work really closely with my editor Graham Fisher. From the beginning, I didn't think I knew what the process would be like. I've established the grammar for it from DreamWorks. It's not a dictatorship. It's a team effort. And I think it makes the project more fun because everyone is in on it. It's a small team, really. We have a small director team. But it's not a huge crew, so everyone is involved in everything. [-15:29] Allan: Yeah, I like that. When you have small teams, nothing gets lost in conversation. You're in constant communication. Andrew: And you can chat with someone quickly. Allan: What are some of the challenges on a project like this? Andrew: For me, it was switching from features, with big budgets, to tv which has much smaller budgets. And much more demanding schedule. And not just for one episode. When you finish one episode, there is another one after that. So you can't get bogged down. It will throw the whole thing off. You're juggling six or seven episodes at a time: reviewing the script, script analysis, getting ready to shoot it, reviewing animation. You're jam-packed back to back and trying to make decisions that are smart but also economical. [-13:39] Allan: I see Ron Perlman is doing a voice for one of the characters. That doesn't surprise me at all. How well has it been received so far? The first season has been out for while. Andrew: It's been received well. Netflix doesn't have numbers. They just have a general idea. Twitter has been exploding. The IMDb reviews have been great. [-12:49] Allan: Who are all the directors besides yourself? Andrew: Elaine Bogan, Rodrigo Blaas, Johane Matte. Allan: In general what's coming for you? Obviously, you're going to be speaking in Paris pretty soon. What other stuff do you have coming up, other than getting into street fights and starting your own Fightclub. Andrew: Don't talk about Fightclub. That's rule number one. We are buried in season two for Trollhunters. Definitely looking forward to Paris! [-12:02] Allan: What's your talk going to be on? Your first talk was on deconstructing a lot of great performances. I found that to be really original. The last talk was relaxed. But I loved that you could talk about your experience at Brick Lane, Pixar, then throw in some Bruce Lee in there as well. Everything you had to say was so relevant. Andrew: This year will be on experience as a first-time director. Just that transition from my comfort zone to being very uncomfortable, learning lessons the hard way. A lot of the stuff I've talked about here. [-10:17] Allan: I'm really looking forward to catching up. I think your talk is going to be amazing. Andrew: I hope I can see [your talk]. We have to leave Sunday. That's the other problem with working on television: getting time off. [-8:41] Allan: I'm excited just because there are so many awesome people coming this year. Neil Blevins will be there. He's bringing Kat [Evans]. I've been wanting to have her on the Podcast. She's such a ballbuster. She's in a male dominated industry but doesn't take crap. And she's really opinionated, so I think she'd have so much to say. Ryan Church, Dan Roarty, Mike Blum, Ash Thorp. Just in general, this time is going to be great! I'm psyched. I'm hoping to still be in LA, at least once a month. I want to drop by DreamWorks, when I do I'll let you know I'm in the building. Andrew: Please do. Allan: I'll see you in a few weeks. The audio is a bit iffy, but I'll try to make it work. Do you have a personal website? Andrew: I do not. It's another thing I've got to do a bit: Do a bit of self-promotion. [-5:11] Allan: I'm curious, is that something you want to do, establish your presence as a director? Andrew: I think so. Allan: It's a critical part. I'd be happy to help any way that I can. That is it. Again, I apologize for the audio quality but I hope you were still able to pull some diamonds in the rough from this Episode. I want to thank Andrew again. I personally found this talk to be really inspiring. If you want information on Andrew's links or the talk he gave at IAMAG Master Class, go to www.allanmckay.com/76. I'll have another Episode coming out next week. I'll leave it to be a surprise. Also, I've started doing a lot of Facebook streams. I do a lot of career intensives online, but these are more off-the-cuff. So, to be a part of that, you need to follow my public Facebook page. I'll leave a link for that as well. I'll be back with a new Episode next week. Until then -- rock on!
Our fourth episode of Totally Made Up Tales, with more tales of wonder and mystery. Spread the word! Tell a friend! Music: Creepy – Bensound.com. Andrew: Here are some totally made up tales. Brought to you by the magic of the internet. James: One Andrew: Day James: Elise Andrew: Held James: Her Andrew: Boyfriend James: Tightly Andrew: And James: Whispered Andrew: That James: She Andrew: Was James: Pregnant. Andrew: He James: Was Andrew: Surprised James: But Andrew: Delighted. James: Together Andrew: They James: Planned Andrew: For James: A Andrew: Home James: That Andrew: Would James: Welcome Andrew: A James: New Andrew: Life. James: Painting Andrew: The James: Nursery Andrew: In James: Bright Andrew: Green James: With Andrew: Some James: Dinosaurs Andrew: On James: The Andrew: Walls. James: Building Andrew: A James: Crib Andrew: Out James: Of Andrew: Ikea James: And Andrew: Reading James: To Andrew: Each James: Other Andrew: The James: Day Andrew: Of James: Delivery Andrew: Arrived James: And Andrew: They James: Took Andrew: Elise James: To Andrew: The James: Hospital, Andrew: Where James: She Andrew: Gave James: Birth Andrew: To James: A Andrew: Healthy James: Baby Andrew: Dinosaur James: The Andrew: End. James: This is the story of the Gamekeeper's Family. Once upon a time, not so very long ago, there lived a couple in a wood. Andrew: The husband was a gamekeeper at the local estate. James: His wife was a housekeeper for the same. Andrew: They had lived in their little cottage very happily for the last fifteen years. James: But ... they longed for a child. Andrew: They had tried many things, been to doctors, healers and priests but without success. James: They had traveled the world looking for witches that might be able to cure their barrenness, but all in vain. Andrew: After many years of searching and hoping, they had resigned themselves to their situation and were content to mind the children of their neighbours and fellow workers. James: But one day, as the gamekeeper walked home through the forest paths, he came across a basket. Andrew: Attached to the basket was a note, read, “please take care of me” and inside wrapped up in blankets there was a tiny baby. James: He rushed home to his wife to show her what he had found. Andrew: They spent a long time discussing whether or not it would be right for them to keep this child. Who had left it there and why? James: Eventually, they chose to consult the local vicar who assured them that with all of their experience helping to look after their neighbours' children and given that almost everyone else in the village already had children of their own, the right thing would be for them to keep it and raise it as their own. Andrew: This they did, with great success and a fine healthy young man was the product of their labours. James: They had named him Benjamin, after the wife's father and as Benjamin grew in stature, he also grew in the love given to him, not only by them but by others in the village. For everyone enjoyed his outgoing and pleasant company. Andrew: As the years passed the time came for him to take over his father's job as gamekeeper on the estate and this he did. James: He had spent his childhood growing up amongst the forest and knew how to look for the different types of woodland animal and also how to protect them. How best to defend them from poachers and so forth. And so, continuing the charm of his childhood as he started his job, he proved to be more than adept as a gamekeeper and was rapidly promoted until he became head gamekeeper. Andrew: After many years, his parents passed away in a peaceful old age and he moved back to the cottage where he had grown up. James: By this time, he was himself, married, although as with his parents, he and his wife Amelia, had not been able to have a child. Andrew: One day, while out walking in the estate, completing his rounds and jobs, Benjamin too came across a basket with a note attached. James: The note, as the note on his own basket, said “please take care of me” and inside was a tiny child that he took home to Amelia and which as with his parents before him, they decided it was right to adopt. Andrew: Now, the listener will not know that Benjamin's parents had not chosen to share with him the story of how they had found him in a cradle in the woods. And so, it did not occur to him that there was anything unusual about this coincidence. James: As Benjamin and Amelia's daughter, Susanna, grew, she also, much like Benjamin was much loved around the village and when it came time for her to start working, she took over Amelia's job as housekeeper, as Amelia had taken over the job of Benjamin's mother before her. Andrew: And so it was that this story played out from generation to generation. Susanna had a son named Robert. Robert had a daughter named Barbara. Barbara had a son named Tom. James: And always, down through the generations, the same jobs were passed from father to daughter, from daughter to son, across the generations, gamekeeper and housekeeper both. Andrew: But why? Why was it that these popular, lovable, outgoing people were never able to have children of their own? And where was it that the mysterious foundlings were coming from? James: For that, dear listener, we must go back to the first gamekeeper and housekeeper, Benjamin's parents, and see their story from another angle. Andrew: Once upon a time there was a magical forest where there dwelled many sprites and pixies. James: Chief among them was a fairy who had lived for many hundreds of years, spending her time looking after the non-magical creatures of the kingdom. Andrew: Now, many fairies have an ambiguous and complicated relationship with human beings, seeing them somewhat like a tree sees a fungus growing on its bark. James: At times, the fairy would help humans through stumbling difficulties in their lives, but at other times she would punish them for what she saw as a transgression against the magical forest. Andrew: She was, to our eyes, capricious in her whims. Sometimes kind, sometimes cruel. James: One day, the gamekeeper, while walking home through the forest spied a rogue pheasant which had somehow escaped from, as he thought, the forest that he managed. Andrew: What appeared to be a pheasant to his eyes, was in fact the fairy, wandering through her domain. James: He carefully set a trap and as she did not consider him a threat, she walked right into it and was quickly bound and trussed with him carrying her home towards the pot. Andrew: He was not by nature a sentimental person, having spent his life working with the wild animals of the forest. But, there was something about the way this bird fixed him with a seemingly knowing stare as he set it down on the kitchen table that made him think twice about instantly wringing its neck. James: In the moment that he hesitated, the fairy, as fairies sometimes do, cast a spell, not only for her to be released and free but also so that he would forget having ever encountered her. And, as fairies are also sometimes wont to do, she cursed him at that moment, annoyed and upset that she had ignominiously been bound and walked over the forest. She cursed him that he should never have a child to love him. Andrew: Sometime later, the fairy observed his wife walking through the forest and weeping and lamenting her lack of children. James: Unaware that this woman was in any way related to the gamekeeper she had previously cursed, she cast a beneficial spell over the housekeeper that she would have a child that she so clearly desired. Andrew: The child of course, was easy to provide for fairy folk often have children which they need to be raised in the human world. James: And no one ever questioned from Benjamin through Susanna, through Robert, through Barbara, through Tom, why, when their feet touched the ground in the forest, flowers grew in their footsteps. Andrew: And from generation to generation, they continued to live, in the small charming cottage in the middle of the wonderful magical wood. James: Sally Andrew: Held James: Her Andrew: Handbag James: Defensively Andrew: When James: The Andrew: Mugger James: Threatened Andrew: Her James: With Andrew: A James: Knife. Andrew: She James: Balanced Andrew: On James: The Andrew: Balls James: Of Andrew: Her James: Feet Andrew: And James: Lashed Andrew: Out James: With Andrew: Her James: Handbag Andrew: Knocking James: Him Andrew: Over James: And Andrew: Giving James: Her Andrew: The James: Chance Andrew: To James: Escape. Andrew: She James: Reported Andrew: The James: Incident Andrew: To James: The Andrew: Police James: Who Andrew: Promptly James: Ignored Andrew: Her James: And Andrew: Carried James: On Andrew: Filling James: In Andrew: Paperwork. James: The Andrew: End. James: Our next story is Jeremy's Place. 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James: “This Andrew: Is James: Not Andrew: A James: Place Andrew: For James: You.” Andrew: Said James: The Andrew: Dog James: “Where Andrew: Am James: I?” Andrew: “You James: Are Andrew: In James: The Andrew: Seventh James: Kingdom.” Andrew: Jeremy James: Backed Andrew: Away James: From Andrew: The James: Dog Andrew: And James: Fled. Andrew: Once James: Outside Andrew: He James: Started Andrew: To James: Calm Andrew: Down James: Again. Andrew: He James: Convinced Andrew: Himself James: That Andrew: Nothing James: Strange Andrew: Had James: Happened Andrew: To James: Him Andrew: And James: Proceeded Andrew: To James: Walk Andrew: Down James: The Andrew: High James: Street Andrew: And James: Knocked Andrew: On James: The Andrew: Door James: Of Andrew: The James: Butchers. Andrew: Again James: There Andrew: Was James: No Andrew: Reply James: So Andrew: He James: Pushed Andrew: The James: Door Andrew: Open James: And Andrew: Stepped James: Inside. Andrew: Within, James: There Andrew: Was James: No Andrew: Light. James: In Andrew: The James: Area Andrew: Where James: Meat Andrew: Would James: Be Andrew: Chilled James: There Andrew: Was James: Another Andrew: Dog. James: “What Andrew: Are James: You Andrew: Doing James: Here?” Andrew: Said James: The Andrew: Dog. James: “I'm Andrew: Just…” James: “No!” Andrew: Said James: The Andrew: Dog. James: “This Andrew: Is James: Not Andrew: A James: Place Andrew: For James: You!” Andrew: Jeremy James: Looked Andrew: Confused. James: “Where Andrew: Am James: I?” Andrew: “Go! James: This Andrew: Is James: The Andrew: Kingdom. James: You Andrew: Must James: Leave.” Andrew: Jeremy James: Backed Andrew: Away James: From Andrew: The James: Dog Andrew: Into James: The Andrew: Doorway, James: And Andrew: Stepped James: Back Andrew: Onto James: The Andrew: High James: Street. Andrew: Now James: He Andrew: Was James: Having Andrew: Second James: Thoughts Andrew: About James: The Andrew: Shopping James: Trip Andrew: That James: He Andrew: Had James: Planned Andrew: And James: Walked Andrew: Back James: Towards Andrew: Home. James: Passing Andrew: The James: Police Andrew: Station, James: He Andrew: Went James: To Andrew: The James: Door Andrew: And James: Knocked. Andrew: The James: Door Andrew: Was James: Not Andrew: Locked, James: And Andrew: So James: He Andrew: Went James: Inside. Andrew: Within, James: There Andrew: Was James: No Andrew: Light. James: In Andrew: The James: Cells Andrew: Where James: Prisoners Andrew: Usually James: Resided, Andrew: There James: Was Andrew: A James: Third Andrew: Dog. James: “Seriously!” Andrew: Said James: The Andrew: Dog. James: “What Andrew: Are James: You Andrew: Doing James: Here?” Andrew: Jeremy James: Panicked Andrew: And James: Ran Andrew: At James: The Andrew: Dog. James: “Give Andrew: Me James: Back Andrew: My James: Place!” Andrew: He James: Exclaimed. Andrew: The James: Dog Andrew: Jumped James: Sideways Andrew: And James: Avoided Andrew: Jeremy's James: Grasping, Andrew: And James: Replied, Andrew: “This James: Is Andrew: Your James: Place Andrew: Here.” James: Slamming Andrew: The James: Cell Andrew: Door James: Shut, Andrew: Jeremy James: Collapsed Andrew: Into James: The Andrew: Corner James: And Andrew: Slept. James: The Andrew: Next James: Day Andrew: He James: Awoke Andrew: In James: The Andrew: Cell James: To Andrew: Discover James: Three Andrew: Policemen James: Looking Andrew: At James: Him Andrew: In James: Confusion. Andrew: “What's James: All Andrew: This James: Then?” Andrew: They James: Said Andrew: In James: Unison. Andrew: Jeremy James: Stumbled Andrew: Out James: Into Andrew: The James: Open Andrew: Air James: And Andrew: Saw James: That Andrew: Things James: Were Andrew: Back James: To Andrew: Normal. James: The Andrew: Post James: Office Andrew: Was James: Open, Andrew: The James: Butchers Andrew: Had James: Customers, Andrew: The James: High Andrew: Street James: Was Andrew: Bustling. James: “What Andrew: Happened James: Yesterday?” Andrew: He James: Thought Andrew: As James: He Andrew: Opened James: His Andrew: Front James: Door. Andrew: “I James: Swore Andrew: I…” James: And Andrew: In James: Front Andrew: Of James: Him Andrew: Were James: Three Andrew: Dogs. James: The Andrew: End. James: Peter Andrew: Liked James: Jam Andrew: And James: Toast. Andrew: He James: Regularly Andrew: Ate James: Ten Andrew: Slices James: Of Andrew: Them James: For Andrew: Breakfast. James: His Andrew: Constitution James: Was Andrew: As James: Solid Andrew: As James: A Andrew: House. James: One Andrew: Day James: He Andrew: Ran James: Out Andrew: Of James: Jam Andrew: And James: Had Andrew: To James: Use Andrew: Marmite James: Instead. Andrew: This James: Gummed Andrew: His James: Works Andrew: Up James: And Andrew: He James: Slowly Andrew: Died. James: The Andrew: End. I've been Andrew, and I'm here with James. These stories were recorded without advanced planning and then lightly edited for the discerning listener. Join us next time for more totally made-up tales ...
New post from The eCommerceFuel Blog: Continuing with our series on Amazon, this week we're talking about research tools available to help those selling in niche markets. Greg Mercer, the founder of Jungle Scout, a popular Amazon market research tool for sellers, discusses how sellers can weed out saturated segments to find profits. Jungle Scout uses Amazon's Best Sellers rankings to help you make educated decisions on what to buy and sell on Amazon. Greg dives in about the pros and cons of developing products vs reselling on the Amazon platform. He also provides an in-depth review of the tools he uses to conduct market research, which helps him to identify products that are in demand. Subscribe: iTunes | Stitcher (With your host Andrew Youderian of eCommerceFuel.com and Greg Mercer of Jungle Scout.) Andrew: Hey guys, it's Andrew here and welcome to the eCommerceFuel podcast. Thanks so much for tuning in today. And today we're continuing on with our podcast series about Amazon. Specifically, we're gonna be talking about niche research today in 2016. A lot has changed over the last couple of years, but we wanna find out what's working, what you should be thinking about if you're gonna be launching a product or products on the platform today. And joining me to talk about this is Greg Mercer who is the founder of Jungle Scout which is extremely popular market analysis and research tool for Amazon. It lets you go in and you can see, you know, really it gives you like a sense how much revenue certain products are making on Amazon as well as a slew of other information. And Greg's got a lot of experience working with Amazon, running his own Amazon business, and understands the analytics and the market research side extremely well. So hope you enjoy it. I had a lot of fun chatting with Greg about this as I'm a bit of a Amazon newbie myself, and hope you find it useful as well. We'll get right into it. Greg, great to have you on. Thanks for coming. Greg: Absolutely, I appreciate you having me on, Andrew. What is Jungle Scout? Andrew: For those that may not be familiar with you, can you give us a quick overview of what Jungle Scout, which is kind of your primary product, what it is and how it works? Greg: Yeah, absolutely. So it's before that you know, like just a few years ago, I used to work in a corporate job. I wasn't really happy with it. I escaped that by starting to sell on Amazon. That kind of led into Jungle Scout which is a product research tool for Amazon sellers, so it's a software product. And what we've done with this, we've gathered a whole bunch of data, analyzed different data points, and so forth to help sellers make educated purchasing decisions, and I help them find good products to sell on Amazon. Andrew: And the data, so you can actually go to a product, press the button and then it will give you a bunch of data, but included in that is the number that are sold per month as a well as the revenue generated by that product for the seller, correct? Greg: Yes, that's correct. So that's a little bit of like our secret sauce is the sales estimate. And a lot of your listeners probably know Amazon doesn't personally release that data. What they do release is something they call a Best Sellers Rank, and from that we've developed algorithms by tracking a few hundred thousand different products on how that Best Sellers Rank correlates to the unit sales on a monthly basis, We've developed those algorithms, we update them each month, and from there, you can get pretty darn accurate estimates of how much any product sells on Amazon. Using Spitly and Review Kick Andrew: And you also have a couple of other things as well, Splitly and Review Kick. Can you just touch briefly on what both of those are? Greg: Yeah. Sure thing. So Review Kick is a review acquisition management platform. So if you're looking to get reviews on your Amazon produc...
David: What are the rules for prosperity in the new economy? How do you apply conventional sales skills to an online world? And is it really possible to sell from a mobile device? Those are just three of the questions that I intend to ask our special guest today, Andrew J. Cass. Andrew, welcome to DMR. Andrew: Hey, David. Thanks for having me. Good to be here. David: Well, thanks for joining me. Well, Andrew was a seven-figure producer in two separate sales businesses before the age of 35. He's also one of the few Dan Kenndy certified business advisors and co-founder and president of RemarkaMobile. So Andrew, do you think that new web-based businesses are forgetting about learning sales skills? Andrew: I do actually because what's funny today is a lot of people I think like to hide behind, they like to hide behind the internet today or hide behind the web today and sort of sell virtually, which I think you can to a degree. But I think, the more you try to remove the actual person-to-person touch that we came up with or at least, that I came up with. You're leaving a lot on the table. David: Right, okay. So sales skills then definitely apply in the new economy? Andrew: For sure. I think when we talk about the new economy, we're talking really internet, the internet economy, the mobile economy that we're in right now. I think that we rely too much on technology. I know, I don't and you probably don't, David, that's why we're here. But I think, many people do. I think they rely too much on technology and it makes them a little bit lazy and they start to forget that at the end of day, people buy people and people trust people. And they do business with people they like and trust. We have to kind of keep the person element in the sales process as much as possible. In my work, I like to talk pre-internet and post-internet since as you mentioned before, I was a young stockbroker, investment banker in New York when I came up when I was 23, 24 years old. We only had a telephone, that was it. There was no internet, no video, no Google, nothing, just the telephone. We had to make a lot of dials and do a lot of prospecting, so we really learned the art of telephone communication. Then post-internet, as I got online and built an online information information and internet marketing business, I was able to maintain the communication skills I had and then, blend them with technology; automation and leverage. I think if you do those two things, you can build an amazing business. But what I find today is people do one or the other. The old school tends to stay old school. The new school doesn't want to hear from the old school. They just want to be new school. Like I said before, they sort of hide behind technology. It's a delicate balance and it's a balance that very few businesses even explore.
There are a million credit cards out there and some are better than others. We’ll help you find the one that will best meet your needs. When used responsibly, a credit card can be a great tool. You can earn all kinds of rewards from travel points to cash back. They also offer much more protection than a debit card. Full Article Here Show Notes The Andrew Sangria - Rum, wine, triple sec and sprite. Perhaps Andrew will delight us and share his actual recipe. I'll ask him. (edited by Andrew) For the record, who has time to measure ingredients? You'll know you've done it right if you still taste the rum ;) Podcast Correction: In case you're too lazy to scroll down much further I'd like to point out that we made a mistake in the episode. You can't use prepaid cards to build credit but you CAN use secured cards to. A similar idea only there's actual credit usage involved with secured cards. Thanks goes out to Kyle Russell for catching this one! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
June: I need your advice. I don't have kids and studying for CPA is now my full time job. I thought I would be able to sit for all 4 tests within one month. I have taken two tests already and will have to take two more. I study about 8-10 hours per day but I don't think it is enough. I know that I did not do well on my first two exams, and I dont think I will be ready for the last 2. I feel very overwhelmed and need direction and new study strategies. I am waiting for my results, and if I don't pass it, I would take them again in January or February. Can you suggest any study strategies that could help me? Calvin: My review course is suggesting that I study all 4 sections at the same time to get a better grasp of whole accounting system. While I'm sure these people know what they are doing, I can't agree with it since that would be too much information and I would forget what I've learned. Would you suggest to work on one subject then move to another or study all 4 courses at the same time as suggested? Maso: I have passed Regulation, took BEC in October (awaiting result), and I am taking FAR at the end of November. I plan to take Audit in January or February 2012. I cant decide whether I should buy Audit material this year or wait for the new 2012 materials. Do you have any information whether there are changes in 2012 Audit material? Jason: I took audit today, and I think I did well on the multiple choice questions, but the simulations were extremely tough. Are the scores coming out faster now? I think instead of starting to study for the next section I should wait and see if I failed so I can just study for Audit more and take it again in January. What are your thoughts? Prashanthi: I cleared the BEC section, and the credit expires on Feb 29, 2012. I have the other three sections to pass. I have a one-year-old kid and all the household work to take care of. I am hardly finding time to study. I started preparing for AUD as I planned to sit for one exam by the end of this month. I haven't covered majority of material as of now. Can you please suggest what I can do in this situation to pass 3 sections in such a short period of time? Anonymous: I have been out of school for 2 years and have no accounting related experience. I have been working as loan processor and TBH, and I am tired of this position. I applied and was approved to sit for the CPA exams, but the fact that I have no work experience and that it has been a while since my last accounting class is stressing me out. I am thinking about buying the Wiley review materials. I also decided to study full time (No work, No school). Can I pass if I put in 6-8 hours a day and spend 3-4 weeks for each section? Please let me know what you think. Brian: I messed up and waited too long to reserve my time slot to take my exam section. I live in Georgia, have taken and passed my 3 previous exam sections in Georgia, and plan on being licensed in Georgia. The only slot Prometric has to take the exam that fits my schedule is located in Alabama. I'm willing to drive to take the exam there, but I'm wondering if there are any issues taking an exam section in another state. Do I have to transfer the score? Will the score still count? I know it is called the "Uniform CPA Exam" so I wouldn't think there would be an issue, but I wanted to check with you and see your thoughts/experiences with the matter. Andrew: For someone who hasn't passed any parts yet, do you think it's better to keep taking one part until you pass that part, or should you just take all four parts in a row and see how you do? Your thoughts are appreciated. Vipul: I passed all 4 sections in September 2010 through the New Hampshire State Board. Since then, I have been trying to find an opportunity in the United States where I can get my license. I need your advice as to how can I get a license in the Unite...
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