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In this episode of the IC-DISC Show, I sit down with Brian Schwam to discuss how Interest Charge Domestic International Sales Corporations (IC-DISCs) can help businesses save on taxes. With over 35 years of experience, Brian shares how IC-DISC has evolved since 1972 and why it remains a valuable tool for U.S. exporters. He explains how businesses, particularly in the aerospace industry's Maintenance, Repair, and Overhaul (MRO) sector, can take advantage of this incentive to improve their financial position. We walk through a hypothetical example to illustrate how an exporting business could benefit from IC-DISC. Brian explains how companies involved in manufacturing, repairing, or trading parts can qualify and why many eligible businesses overlook this opportunity. We also discuss the annual MRO conference in Atlanta, where industry professionals gather to share insights and best practices. This event highlights the ongoing impact of IC-DISC within the aerospace sector and beyond. Despite the clear benefits, many businesses hesitate to implement IC-DISC due to a lack of awareness or expertise. Brian talks about how our firm partners with CPA firms to integrate IC-DISCs into existing tax processes, making it easier for businesses to take advantage of these savings. He also highlights the underutilization of IC-DISC and why more companies should consider it as part of their tax strategy. We wrap up by discussing the upcoming MRO America's Conference in Atlanta, where exporting aviation maintenance companies can connect and learn more about IC-DISC applications. Whether you're new to IC-DISC or looking to refine your approach, this conversation provides useful insights for businesses considering this tax-saving opportunity.     SHOW HIGHLIGHTS In this episode, I discuss the intricacies and benefits of Interest Charge Domestic International Sales Corporations (IC-DISC) with tax attorney Brian Schwam, who has over 35 years of experience in the field. We explore the historical context of IC-DISC, including its origins in 1972 and the significant changes it underwent following international scrutiny and U.S. tax reforms, such as the 2003 Bush tax cuts and the 2017 Tax Cuts and Jobs Act. Brian provides insights into how IC-DISC can serve as a valuable tax incentive for U.S. exporters, particularly those in the aerospace industry's Maintenance, Repair, and Overhaul (MRO) sector. Through a detailed hypothetical example, we illustrate how companies can leverage IC-DISC to maximize export profits, highlighting specific benefits for pass-through entities and closely held C corporations. We address common apprehensions businesses face regarding IC-DISC implementation and discuss how collaboration with CPA firms can facilitate a seamless integration into existing tax processes. Despite the clear benefits, IC-DISC remains underutilized, and we emphasize the potential missed opportunities for businesses not taking advantage of this tax-saving strategy. The episode also covers upcoming industry events, such as the annual MRO conference in Atlanta and the ICDISC Alliance Conference, which offer valuable networking and professional growth opportunities.   Contact Details LinkedIn - Brian Schwam (https://www.linkedin.com/in/brian-schwam-b6026a3/) LINKSShow Notes Be a Guest About IC-DISC Alliance About WTP Advisors GUEST Brian SchwamAbout Brian TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Dave: Hey, brian, welcome to the podcast. Brian: Thanks, dave, good to be here. Dave: So where on planet Earth are you calling in from today? It's hard to tell by looking at your background. Brian: Outer space. I am in the sunny South Florida. Dave: Okay. Brian: Breezy, south Florida, okay. Dave: Now are you a native of Florida. Brian: I am not a native of Florida. I spent 50 years of my life in the upper Midwest in Wisconsin. Okay, I had to move to Sunbelt. Dave: Okay, Now were you educated in the Midwest then too. Brian: I was. I'm a proud alum of the University of Wisconsin, both for an undergraduate degree in accounting and also my JD from the law school Okay. Dave: So you've and I take it and I've known you a while, so I think that's been several decades ago that your career was started. Is that about right? Brian: Several would be a good good approximation. Yes, I've been at this for 38 years. I know it doesn't look like it, right, okay? Dave: And so, and how long have you been involved in ICDISC? Then Most of that time 38 years, oh, 38 years in ICDISC. Then most of that time, 38 years, oh, 38 years in the disc, wow, yeah. So how does that do you know? Do you have any way to quantify that? Like how many you know ICDISC returns you've, you know, signed or reviewed or prepared, or Boy, it's a big number, dave. Brian: It's probably five figures. Okay, probably, so you know, somewhere north of 10,000 for sure. Okay, over that time period. Dave: Well, and that is why I'm glad that you are one of the founding members of the IC Disc Alliance with me that when I had a chance to partner up with you and some of your team when we created the IC Disc Alliance, I was really excited because in my book I pretty much knew all the players in the IC Disc space and once the famous Neil Block retired after 50 years to me you were without peer in the IC Disc space. Brian: So I really enjoyed collaborating with you through the years here in the ICDISC space, so I really enjoyed collaborating with you through the years. Dave: Thank, you for that, Dave. I hope to be able to follow Neil into that 50-year stratosphere. Yeah, that's big shoes to follow. So let's just talk a bit about the ICDISC. What the heck is it? Why does everyone use that silly acronym? Brian: Because what it really stands for is a mouthful. Dave: Okay. Brian: Discharged Domestic International Sales Corporation and that is what the ICDISC stands for, short right ICDISC. And I don't know if we'll get into. I'll get into what the IC stands for and everything. But basically this is an export incentive that's been in the Internal Revenue Code since 1972. Okay, in various forms. Initially it was an export incentive that just about any company could use, that was exporting goods that were manufactured, produced, grown or extracted in the US. It came under some fire from our trading partners and in 1984, it was transformed into the ICDISC. It started out just as the DISC in 1972 for the Boston International Sales Corporation and it, like I said, came under scrutiny. Our trading partners said hey, you're a, you can't have an exemption from income because you're not. You know you tax things differently in your country. This flies in the face of the other incentives you give your taxpayers. So they changed it into the ICDIS, which made it into, instead of a permanent tax savings, at least on its face, into a temporary savings where, to the extent a taxpayer saved tax and deferred income from tax, they were required to pay an interest charge to the IRS on that deferred tax. Hence the IC. Dave: Okay, okay. Brian: That rate changes every year. It's based on the one-year average TBLO rate as of September 30th annually. And at the same time they instituted something called the Foreign Sales Corporation, which was widely used by thousands of companies, and that came under attack and eventually became the extraterritorial income exclusion which was immediately attacked and eventually, a couple of years later, it just went away. In the meantime, the disk floundered for quite a number of years. In fact, in the year 2000 there were only 787 disks in existence. Dave: Wow, it seems like a shockingly small number. Brian: Well, the tax laws weren't real conducive to benefiting from the disk at that time. Then, in 2003, the Bush tax cuts brought in the concept of qualified dividend income and it took the disk off of life support and really put it on robust territory for pass-through entities, because they could now, to the extent that they could qualify and we'll get into that, to the extent they could qualify and to the extent that they could benefit it provided a 20% rate benefit between ordinary income and qualified dividend income, so it was a significant savings. Now that's been whittled away over time, where it's been reduced here and there. Various tax law changes and probably the largest or the next biggest reduction came in in 2017 with the Trump tax bill, the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act, which reduced the rate on qualified income on non-qualified income. So it reduced the rate on S-corp income partnership income in an individual's tax return to a 29.6% level, and so now the spread between the qualified dividend rate and the ordinary rate just isn't as great as it used to be. It's approaching 6%. So where it used to be 20, then it went to 15, and now it's 6. But it's still a permanent savings for these past three entities and it's not something that they should ignore, because it can save significant taxes, depending upon the level of export activity. Dave: Okay, and now to be clear, depending on a company-specific fact pattern, that spread could be greater. Right For a pass-through. It could be as high as what like? Brian: 13% or so For a pass-through it could be as high as what like, 13% or so For a pass-through business. Dave: It could be as high as 13.2%, okay, but in general we see that it and it could even be somewhere between that, depending on. Brian: Anywhere in between 5.8 and 13.2. Dave: And our experience has been that most companies tend to gravitate more toward the lower end of the savings than the higher end. Brian: Yes. Dave: Yes, okay. Now what about for a C-Corp? Brian: C-Corp is a different animal. Okay, a C-Corp can't use an disc to pay deductible dividends to its owners if it's a closely held C corp. This is not something that a public company can benefit from. But if a closely held business C corp is paying dividends to its shareholders and would like to be able to deduct those payments, rather than not being able to deduct those payments, using an ICDIS can transform the dividend into a deductible dividend. Now, it doesn't save the shareholders any tax, because they're paying tax on the dividend regardless of where it comes from, but it would eliminate the corporate level tax on the C corporation, so that benefit could be as high as 21%. Dave: Okay. Brian: Okay, another manner in which certain C corporations use the disc is to fund bonuses for shareholders and key employees, and then that saves the shareholders 17% tax the difference between a tax on a wage and a tax on a dividend, qualified dividend. So that's a 17% savings for the shareholder. In that case the C-Corp doesn't save any tax. They're getting a deduction either way wages or commission to the disk. And now that I've mentioned the word commission, that's probably a good segue into how does a disk earn income? Yeah, and what is its income? So most discs are what we call commission discs. They earn a commission when a operating business that's related to that disc makes an export sale of qualified export property. So let's dig down into that first. What's qualified export property? Well, that's property that has been manufactured, produced, grown or extracted in the US. So if I'm manufacturing in Mexico or Canada or China and I'm simply selling what I've made in those other countries, you know the disc is not something that's going to benefit that type of a business. Dave: Okay. Brian: It is there to spur US manufacturing, create US jobs, right in line with the America First proposition that's headlining Washington in 2025. Dave: Okay. Brian: So it should be on safe ground, everything that's going on there. So if a company has property that's been manufactured, produced, grown or extracted in the US and they sell it for export outside the United States and not to a US possession, then that sale can potentially generate an ICDIS commission that would be paid to the ICDIS. And keep in mind this ICDISC is not an entity that the outside world sees or understands or knows about. It's simply an entity that does business, if you will, internally with the operating company, so customers don't know about it. It's really transparent to the world. It's just there to help US exporters save tax. Dave: Okay, it's just there to help US exporters save tax. Okay, and the logistics of it. Like say a company has just for simple math, let's say they have $10 million of export, of qualified export revenue, and the ICDIS commission that's calculated to say 10% of that. Brian: Okay. Dave: So 10% of that would be a million dollars, and so walk me through kind of the that's correct and it accrues the deduction, assuming it's not a cash basis taxpayer. Brian: It accrues that deduction at the end of the year, the DISC accrues the income at the end of the year and then by statute the DISC does not pay income tax. So now we've gotten a deduction on one side, we have non-taxable income on the other side and then when the disc pays a dividend to its owners, that becomes a qualified dividend and is taxed at a lower rate. Dave: Okay, so then, effectively, that million dollars gets reclassified from being taxed at ordinary dividend rates to qualified dividend rates. Brian: From ordinary income rates to qualified dividend rates. Dave: yes, Yep, thank you for that. And where that shows up for a pass-through is going to be on the individual shareholders, k-1, right. That box up near the top that shows ordinary taxable income would basically go down. Let's say there was one shareholder, that number goes down by a million dollars. And then there's a box further down on the K-1 for qualified dividend income and that's where the number's being shifted to right. Brian: Right. Assuming the disc is owned by the operating company, which most of the time it is in the pass-through business context, then the ordinary income gets reduced on the K-1 and the dividend income will increase on the K-1, not necessarily in the same year, but that will be the result over time. Dave: And then that tax savings then will show up on the individual shareholders. 1040, right, because their ordinary income line is a million dollars less. The qualified dividend income line is a million dollars more, and that's where that arbitrage. Brian: They pay less tax if they're getting a distribution from the company to cover their taxes, which is often the case, the company doesn't have to distribute as much cash, therefore increasing the working capital of the business. Dave: Okay, well, thank you. Thank you for that. Now, what I want to drill down into a little more today is looking at the aerospace industry, specifically what's called the MRO space in aerospace. Do you know what MRO stands for? Brian: I believe, I do, I believe maintenance, repair and overhaul. Dave: That's my understanding as well. Brian: That's a significant area in the aviation space. Dave: yes, Okay, and I believe that there's a big conference in Atlanta in April with like something like 17,000 expected attendees. Brian: Yeah, just a small gathering. Dave: A small gathering. Brian: For sure. Yes, that's my understanding as well. In fact, I'll be there. Dave: Yeah, I believe we'll both be there, yeah we'll both be there A few of our colleagues. Brian: Yeah, so it's a one a year significant gathering of companies that operate in this MRO space, supporting airlines and other aviation companies, and basically MRO is important because it keeps planes able to fly. Yeah, and we actually have a booth there. Dave: Yeah, and we actually have a booth there. 1818 BC and it makes it sound like it's a date from a long time ago. But yeah, we'll be there and this will be our first year in attendance or exhibiting. And this has come from, in recent years, I'd say, a big ramp up in the number of MRO companies who we are helping with their IC disk. Is that right? Brian: Yeah, absolutely. In fact, one of the sponsors of the conference was a company I was doing some work with and I asked them if he thought it would be a good idea for us to attend, and it was a resounding absolutely that he thought that we could meet a lot of companies that could benefit from this ICDISC similar to his company. Dave: Okay. What are the elements in the MRO space or the characteristics of the companies that make them a good fit for the ICDISC, because my understanding is it's probably only one out of a hundred of like all the registered corporations in the US are really a fit for the disc. Brian: Yeah, so it takes a specific fact pattern to really benefit. So the companies in the service side of the business so let's say they're carpet cleaners or something to that nature they're not going to be able to benefit from the disk. But let's say it's a repair center and airlines will ship in parts to the repair center because they've worn out and they need it. They need a replacement part so that they can fly this plane. So what happens is maybe the repair center takes their part and repairs it, but they previously repaired another part that's identical and then to the customer and that plane gets back in the air right away. So in that scenario, even though it's a different part that's going back out versus what was coming in, that type of activity qualifies as long as what they're doing qualifies as manufacturing and that repair is occurring in the US. Dave: Okay. Brian: Then that type of a company could definitely benefit Other companies. I don't want to use this term, but it's kind of like horse trading. Sometimes companies will buy a surplus of parts, knowing that eventually they're going to be used by somebody and they hang on to these parts, or they find them from somebody who says I don't want these parts anymore, I haven't been able to sell them. So they take a flyer, they take a risk and they buy these parts and they hang on to them and maybe they sell them at a significant profit and maybe they don't. But there's that space as well that can benefit from the disc, and there's some misconception out there that some of the companies that are similar to what I just described can't benefit from a disc, and so, for example, if parts are obtained outside the US, they stay outside the US. They stay outside the US and they're repaired, recertified and resold. Those aren't going to qualify for the ICBITS. But sometimes parts are acquired outside the US and they're brought into the US, they're repaired, put it back into inventory in the US and then sold for export, and that activity does qualify for the ICs, and so it's very important to know where this refurbishment or remanufacturing is taking place. Dave: Okay and yeah, and there's a US content piece to it, right, like if they buy a part from China and all they do is they just put a little lubricant on it and throw it in a box. Brian: that may not qualify and then they export it. The test is what's the customer's value when that part comes into the US. So if it's a burned out hot engine part, for example, yeah there's no value or very little value and it comes into the US, its customers value is close to zero. It gets repaired, it's going to easily meet the content test and it's easily going to be considered manufactured in the US. It's rare, I think, that we'll find that somebody will buy a new part from outside the US just to inventory it here for export. Dave: Okay, yeah, because there's that it's a 50% US content test, right which? Is also, I think confusing on the surface if you don't really dive down into the rules, right, I mean, the layperson may find it. Brian: How do you know what's 50% US content? Well, the cost of good, I mean. Think of it the other way. The foreign content can't be more than 50%. And the foreign content is the cost, the customs value when it was imported. So if I'm selling something for $100, I imported it for as much as $49.99. That's going to qualify as long as I did something, you know, remanufactured it once it got to the US and once it got to the plus, more often than not, I think the value of those things coming in because they're used and worn and damaged parts, they're going to have a low customs valuation where there'll be no problem meeting that content. Dave: Okay, I can see that. Well, I find and my listeners tell me they really like kind of case studies, little mini of case studies, little mini, you know, client case studies On an anonymous basis. Do you have an example or two of some of the types of companies we've worked with, just to give people a flavor of them and, again, you know, being anonymous to you know? What company it is, but just a sense of like the sense of the size of the company, what the benefit might have been. Brian: The size is sort of across the board, right. So some of them are someone on the smaller side. They might have export sales between $5 and $10 million, and then some of them might have export sales of $100 million. It all depends on the size of their business and the benefits are kind of all over the map. Because we don't just do a simple calculation of the benefits. And the reason we don't is because in this industry what we find is there's a lot of margin variability in the companies that are exporting, and then a transaction-by-transaction analysis of the disk commission is what makes the most sense. That allows us to benefit from the margin variability, allows them to benefit from a higher disk commission and obviously then they're going to save more tax. And in some cases the commission grows by 10x by using the T by T. Sometimes it's two or three x, sometimes it's. You know, I've seen you know where it would have been zero because there was an overall loss in the company, but we were able to get a significant discommission with a T by T approach. So it's hard to pinpoint an exact number, but generally speaking it's 15 to 20, you know the commission ends up being 15 to 20% of sales. And if you look at the statutes, one of the statutes says oh, the commission can be 4% of sales, and another implies that it could be anywhere from 4% to 10%, but we generally see in this industry at least 15% on average. It's significantly higher. Dave: Yeah, and I'd like to drill down into that because I tell, and based on my understanding, we may manage more IC disks than any other organization of the country. I mean we I think our number is somewhere north of 500 companies now that we're helping out, and when I'm having these conversations, you know. So I'm, as you know, I'm more focused on the sales side. You know, and you and your team are more focused kind of on the technical aspect of producing these returns, and what I tell people is that our real value isn't being able to produce an IC disk return. Our value is the incremental benefit that the transaction by transaction calculation yields. That the transaction by transaction calculation yields. Because you know just about any any cpa firm you know most of them their software includes the ic disk return. You know, if they just go do a four percent calculation, it's a, you know, reasonably straightforward calculation. But we find that you know they're capturing only a fraction of the total benefit. Brian: That's true, and while I've seen a good number of interesting looking disc returns, I tend to agree that if you follow the directions, anybody can probably prepare a disc return. We do that as well. That's not where we add the most value. Where we add the most value, adding the value comes in unlocking the highest commission possible so that the tax savings are as great as possible. Yeah, and a lot of businesses that are high margin I'm sorry, low margin high volume businesses. When you look at the disc, on its face it looks like oh, there's not much benefit here, we're only making 2% or 3% of sales on our bottom line. So our disc commission would be 2% or 3% of sales. But, like I said, with the transactional approach, if the commission approach is 15%, well now we've taken the company into a tax loss which could potentially save additional taxes for the owners over and above that 5.8%, because now we're offsetting that loss against other income wages, interest, et cetera and being taxed just on the qualified dividend income of the disc. And so you can't just look at the overall margin or overall profitability of the company and project what that, what it's going to look like, Because they vary all over the place. Dave: Based on this transactional approach, yeah, and I would like to talk a bit about. Oftentimes, when I'm talking to a company that's considering a disk, oftentimes they've never even heard of it. Their CPA firm may not have even mentioned the idea. And they'll say, and they'll ask me hey, does this mean my CPA, you know, screwed up by not telling me about it. In my response, you know I try to be generous and I explain it that, look, you know, in our experience only about one out of 100 companies are a candidate. And so let's just say you have a large local CPA firm and they have 100, you know midsize corporate clients. Statistically we find that only one of them, you know, would be a fit for the disk. And your experience may be a little different, you know, feel free to correct me. And so when you think about it from the CPA's perspective, if there's a special part of the tax code and they only have one client that benefits, it's a difficult economic dynamic for the CPA firm to invest in a whole team and expertise to serve one client, right? Isn't that like part of the challenge that the and I know you've worked at a number of large CPA firms Is my understanding correct? That's part of the problem is just their clientele. There aren't enough of them. That makes it worth doing yeah. Brian: Yeah, I think that's a fair characterization. I might phrase it a little bit differently. I mean, there are thousands of CPA firms and they're all excellent generalists. This is not an area where you can be a generalist. Cpa firms often outsource R&D, tax credit work, cost segregation work. This, to me, falls right in that same category. You don't want to dabble in this, and if you're not sure what you're doing, you can get you and your client in trouble. Have good intentions, but if you don't execute it properly, it can be more of a headache than it's worth. And so, like most people, I think people gravitate towards what they know and understand, and things that they don't know and understand can look and sound scary. Dave: Yeah. Brian: So it's like, oh my God, an IC disc. I've never heard of that. I'm not sure I can bring that to my client because I don't really know what I'm doing. Well, I wish I knew somebody I could call to him. He's not a competitor right who could help me through this and help my client through this, and so that's really one of the reasons why we exist, because, as you stated, you don't want it to be a competitor that you call, and so, because we are so hyper focused on what we do and we don't do the things that I'll call the cpa's generalists, that the generalists do, we're an excellent partner because we're not looking to take away anybody's tax return or any of the other type of work that the CPA might be doing for that client. We just want to play in our space. Dave: Yeah, sometimes I'm sorry. Sometimes you know clients or potential clients will say, yeah, but you know our CPA firm does. You know all of our work. It's a one-stop shop thing and I'm afraid having you do the disc return and then doing the corporate return yeah, but our CPA firm does all of our work, it's a one-stop shop thing and I'm afraid having you do the disc return and then doing the corporate return it's just going to be a nightmare for you all to coordinate your efforts. It just sounds like too much trouble. What would your response be to that? Brian: My response is I work with over 500 companies. Generally we do the disk work for those companies. The regular mainstream CPA does everything else. We coordinate our work with that CPA and it's never a problem. We say, look, we're going to need X number of days to turn this around, so please have a draft of the operating company return by a particular date, and then they work towards that date. They give us the return, we get data from the company and we turn the number around so they can finish their tax return and then we go ahead and finish the disc return and I would say 99.9% of the time it works like we're all part of the same thing. Dave: Yeah, because really the CPA they prepare that final draft corporate return. They then pull two numbers from the disk return that goes into the corporate return and then they're done, basically right. Brian: And they're done and they can go ahead and finish up their disk return, I mean their operating company return and their state returns and everything. And then we just have to get the disc return done. And sometimes you know they file their tax return in april and you know the disc returns aren't due till september. So one might say, oh, you could just sit on them until september. But you know, we try to get them done at the same time. Sure sure Everybody can rest easy. But I mean we think of ourselves as a bolt-on resource to that CPA firm while we're working with that and we work with probably 50 to 75 CPA firms around the country in that role- yeah. It works well. I mean, you can talk to any one of them about what it's like to work with us, and I'm sure you'd get a glowing recommendation for how we work with them and for their clients. Dave: Yeah, no, I'm with you. So, as we're nearing the end here, the other thing that people find interesting you'd mentioned in 2003, there were 700 IC disks under 1,000. Yeah, 787. And then, according, if my recollection is correct, the most recent IRS stats that updated that were published, I think, in 2010. And I believe in 2010, there were like 2000 disks. Brian: Yeah, something like 1926. Okay, To be exact, and that number I'm sure has grown dramatically since then. I would guess there's somewhere between eight and 10,000 disks out there now. Okay, yeah. Dave: Yeah, now what's interesting? This is what people find interesting. I believe there's about 50 million business organization, you know business entities in the country, and so let's just assume that's the number, 50 million. Brian: I mean it's tens of millions. Dave: I'm certain of that. For some reason, I think it's 50 million. Does that sound reasonable? Brian: It does so let's think it's 50 million, does that? Dave: sound reasonable. It does. So let's say it's 50 million and on your average, you know we find around one out of a hundred. You know, maybe one out of 200 companies are fit for the disc. So if we run through the math, you know one percent of 50 million, I believe, is 500, 000. You know approximate companies that we think would benefit from a disc. Yet most recent stats, there's only 2000, you know, and maybe it's 4,000, 6,000, you know. Even, let's say it's 10,000 that exists now. So if you divide 10,000 by 500,000, what is that? Like 2%, I think, of the projected eligible company actually have a disc yeah, and people can't. They always are surprised by that and I usually tell them it might. And tell me if your numbers are consistent. I say about 100. One out of 100 benefit or could benefit. The ones who could benefit 90 percent of them have never heard of the disc, maybe 95%, and the 5% of the 1% who have heard of it, even once they hear about it, they usually haven't implemented it. Brian: Right. Then there's a percent that have implemented it. They're not getting out of it what they can. Dave: Right right. Brian: So it's so. There's a lot of missed opportunities by taxpayers and everyone's always trying to save some taxes. It helps fun, you know. It might help hire another employee might help, you know, if the savings are moderate and it's 50, 6070, 1000 of tax savings that still could pay for an employee to come work at the company. Why do? Dave: you think that utilization is so low? I mean because it'd be shocking if only 2% of the companies who did research and development took advantage of the RMD tax credit. Brian: I think it's just not well known. I mean it's very esoteric, it's been in the tax code for ages and ages and it just doesn't you. You know, there were so many years where it just wasn't relevant when you think that it's not something people think about. And then if you know, if you're a small exporter and you're exporting a half a million dollars a year a million dollars a year unfortunately it probably doesn't benefit you to have a disc and so maybe someone will look at it whether that size and they're like, oh yeah, it doesn't benefit you to have a disk and so maybe someone will look at it whether that size and they're like, oh yeah, it doesn't work. And then they grow and they forget that it might work once they've grown. So once a company hits about three million of export sales really should look at it again, because that's where it starts to have economic relevance that's where it starts to have economic relevance. Dave: Do you think some of it could be that? I mean, in general, public companies don't use disks, right? Brian: They just simply don't. Dave: Okay, and so I've found that oftentimes small to mid-sized privately held companies receive a lot of their sophisticated business knowledge from their Fortune 500 suppliers or clients. You know they'll hear from them about something and you know, like the payroll protection program during COVID, you know I suspect some of those might have heard about that from you know some of their large customers. Maybe that's not a good example, but you know that could be another reason. Right, there's just a dearth of knowledge that the CPAs aren't focused on it because the economics don't make sense. The large sophisticated public suppliers and clients don't use it, so they don't hear about it from them. Right, it's not really in the news, it's just. It just kind of flies below the radar screen, doesn't it? Brian: It definitely does, and that's certainly a reason why it's not as utilized as it probably could be. Dave: Yeah, and it seems like you know most of our, you know virtually all of our clients come as a referral from either an existing client or an advisor who we've worked with other clients you know, like a CPA or attorney or banker. So yeah, it's just a yeah, even though you know the podcast is called the Icy Disc Show. I don't get the sense that I'm ever going to. You know, reach Joe Rogan's audience size. It just seems to kind of fly below the radar screen. Brian: Yeah, and the potential audience is probably a little smaller than Joe's. Dave: Probably Well. So the last thing, the other thing people tell me they're surprised about the first year of the disk return. When they set up a disk is to get everything done. And we tell them the disk return's ready and they say, super good, and e-file it for me, like the CPA does the corporate and personal returns. And what is our response when they tell us to go e-file it for them? Brian: The response is unfortunately, the IRS doesn't provide for e-filing of disk returns and we'll need to send you a paper return. You're going to need to sign it and file it with the IRS and the unfortunate thing there is gosh, I don't know what percent of the time, but it's a growing percentage of the time the IRS loses the return Right and then sends a notice saying, hey, we never filed or whatever. And some of these disk returns are quite large. The fact that they because when you do the transaction by transaction analysis, there's a lot of paper that gets produced and filed and it's shocking to me that the IRS would lose those what they do. Dave: So it's interesting what they do. So it's interesting. I like to say that not only does the ICDISC fly under the radar screen of most everything, it even, in some ways, it's almost like it flies under the radar screen of the IRS itself. Brian: Yeah, and they put some things in place with regard to the ICDISC in 1984 and have never changed it. For example, if you're in the situation where you have to pay interest on deferred tax, which often occurs. First of all, a lot of times taxpayers don't realize it and they don't do it. Secondly, if they do it. It's so antiquated that the instructions to the form where you calculate the interest it says please staple a check to this form and mail it in. I mean, who does that in 2020, right? Nobody. People, businesses prefer to do things electronically to avoid checks being stolen, fraudulent activity, so on and so forth. But here the IRS is saying staple a check to this form and mail it to Kansas City, missouri. Dave: Yeah, and I guess it kind of makes sense that you know if there's only a few thousand of these disks in existence. In the same way, you can't expect the CPA firms to make it a heavy focus, I suppose even the IRS. You know there's a hundred other tax incentives or a thousand other tax incentives that are more highly utilized that you know they maybe are spending their time on. Brian: Yeah, as I like to say, the people at the IRS that understood the disc were working there in the 70s and 80s, OK, and they're long retired. Yeah, and they're long retired. There's really not a lot of bodies at the IRS that understand the DISC and certainly when you're doing a transaction by transaction study and calculating the commission on each individual transaction, there's nobody there that understands that. Dave: Nobody Well, and it's kind of the same thing outside the IRS, right? Nobody Well, and it's kind of the same thing outside the IRS, right? I mean I have this joke that nobody makes partner at a big four firm being the IC disk expert. Oh, that's true, so it even especially nowadays. Yeah, and so it seems like like the average age of IC disks experts is about the same as the average age of the average Fortran computer language programmer. It just seems like you know new people are not coming into the disk and there's just a dearth of knowledge all around. Brian: Right, right. And I myself learned COBOL, which is a choice between Fortran and COBOL, when I was in business school, both equally non-usable. Dave: Is it part of that? Because since the disk came on in 1972, it seems like since 1973, people have been talking about the IC disk going away. So is that maybe part of it? People think, well, why should I learn something if it's going away? Brian: Maybe part of it. People think, well, why should I learn something if it's going away? There's always been a fear that it's either going to go away or that there's a technical correction coming that the disk dividend is not a qualified dividend. But the bottom line is politically, I just don't see that happening. Dave: It stands for too many things that are positive for the US Job creation export sales for too many things that are positive for the US Job creation, export sales, us companies being more competitive in the global market. Brian: So it doesn't really lend itself to be repealed. What can be repealed are some of the tax rates. Some of the tax rates can change and that can change the benefits of the disc. The concept of the disc itself and what it stands for really is very consistent with our country. Dave: Yeah, wow, I can't believe how the time has flown by, brian. Is there anything else that you want to mention about the IC disc or the MRO industry? Brian: No, I can't think of anything specifically other than I'm looking forward to being there and meeting many of the attendees and other exhibitors that are there and spending some time with you and our colleagues in Atlanta. Dave: Yeah, it will be fun. So it's the ICDISC Alliance. If you want to look us up on the website for the conference or stop by 1818BC. We also have a LinkedIn page for the ICDISC Alliance, and so I'd love to meet with any of you who are going to be at the conference. Awesome, well, thank you very much for your time, Brian. This has been really useful. Brian: You're welcome. You're very welcome. Special Guest: Brian Schwam.

Jeffrey Mosher welcomes Brian Shoaf, Director, Government Relations Director, Detroit Regional Chamber, Detroit, MI Discussing the federal proposal to terminate agreement between Delta Air Lines and Aeromexico: There were several questions raised regarding Delta Air Lines & Aeromexico agreement at risk: Brian Shoaf, Government Relations Director with the Detroit Regional Chamber is here to talk today about a federal proposal involving Delta Airlines and Aeromexico that would impact the Michigan business community and consumers. The federal department action would disrupt seamless leisure and business travel between the U.S. and Mexico and would harm Michigan's economy. Welcome Brian. Tell us about the federal proposal to terminate a partnership between the two airlines and why the Detroit Chamber thinks the decision should be reconsidered? Brian: A federal proposal to terminate a vital partnership between Delta Air Lines and Aeromexico would put local flights and jobs in jeopardy. The U.S. Department of Transportation (DOT) proposed the termination of the Joint Cooperation Agreement (JCA) between Delta Air Lines and Aeromexico in January 2024 without any prior notice due to unrelated change's to Mexico's aviation policy. The administration's decision is drastic, punitive, counterproductive and unprecedented. A final decision is expected this fall. This proposed action is troubling for Metro Detroit businesses and will also concern consumers once they become aware of it. 45 million-plus travelers have benefitted from this strategic partnership. Delta Air Lines and Aeromexico have operated 264,000-plus flights and flown 386 million miles, equalizing 15,500 trips around the world. Brian, Tell us more about this agreement? Brian: Delta Air Lines and Aeromexico's successful strategic partnership was approved by the DOT in 2016. This partnership has created and supported thousands of jobs in both countries, US and Mexico, and has led to a substantial increase in service and consumer choice between the U.S. and Mexico. What is the impact of this proposal on the Delta and Aeromexico partnership Brian? Brian: The termination of this partnership would put up to 23 flight routes between the US and Mexico at risk of cancelation, including 5 that go in and out of Detroit Metro Airport. In 2023, these 5 routes served more than 440,000 passengers. The cancelation of these important flight routes would decrease market competition. Many Michigan businesses benefit from this strategic partnership, including the Detroit Three automakers? Brian: Yes. These flights are now essential components of their businesses and allow product purchasers and plant managers to travel between the two essential hubs in less than five hours. Eliminating these direct flights will lead to less efficient travel, resulting in lost production time and quality of our products. This partnership provides direct flights to the Detroit three automakers' manufacturing plants in Mexico. These direct routes have become essential components of the assembly line, allowing product purchasers and plant managers to freely travel between the two hubs in less than 5 hours. How does this partnership between the two airlines impact tourism? Brian: Estimates show that around half a million Mexican tourists visited Michigan in 2023, beach towns and small businesses depend on strong summer tourism months. The loss of direct flights between DTW and Mexico will serve as a significant barrier for prospective Michigan tourists costing Michigan $1,500 per visitor. What is the bottom line here Brian? Brian: When this decision comes to fruition, no other airline will be able to fill the void that Delta's hub capacity at Detroit Metro Airport (DTW) currently occupies. The DOT should consider the economic impacts that will result from fewer flights out of DTW and let the partnership stand.

Several property managers find themselves feeling alone in their difficult market. It might feel impossible to grow after being stagnant for so long. In this episode, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull sit down with DoorGrow client Brian Bean to talk about how he grew his property management business despite the challenges he faced. You'll Learn [01:55] Getting started in property management [06:20] Making business partnerships work [09:47] Shifting from real estate to property management [18:21] What's next for your property management business? Tweetables “It's really difficult for partnerships to be successful because for most people, the ego is getting in the way.” “What you focus on is what you get.” “Until we learn how to get and find people that we feel safe with, I don't think we're supposed to trust.” “When you get really great people, it's not hard to trust them.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Brian: After 10 years of just being flat from 30 to 35 units. And then now literally doubled it last week. And that's been from following your instruction, your philosophies and you know, focusing on building this business.  [00:00:15] Jason: Welcome DoorGrowers to the DoorGrowShow. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently then you are a DoorGrower. DoorGrower, property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not, because you realize that property management is the ultimate, high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. [00:00:58] We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, Build awareness, change perception, expand the market and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow, along with Sarah Hull, co owner and COO of DoorGrow. Now let's get into the show.  [00:01:18] So our guest today we're hanging out with Brian Bean, who is one of our clients and Brian your company is Dream Big Property Management.  [00:01:28] Brian: That's right. We're in Merced, California.  [00:01:30] Jason: All right. In Merced, California. So Brian welcome to the show. Oh, Riverside. You said Riverside. [00:01:37] Okay. Got it. I know this area. So yeah, I grew up in Rancho Cucamonga. So just a little bit near there. So Brian tell us a little bit about your journey and how you got into property management and then eventually how you stumbled across DoorGrow, I guess.  [00:01:55] Brian: Right, so, I was a newspaper editor and reporter and I got a job, grew up in the Pacific Northwest, got a journalism degree, got a job in Palm Springs on the Daily Newspaper, and moved to California in the 80s. [00:02:11] And so I did that for 13 or 14 years toward the end I, you know, coming from an entrepreneurial background, my uncle gave me my first, second, third job when I was a kid he owned a, like, old style service station. So I grew up in that small business atmosphere. And when I went to work in newspapers, you know, I had these lofty aspirations, these utopian ideas, you know, you're getting your twenties about doing something to change the world or, you know, to have an impact. And I found out after about 10 years, that was just, it's just another corporate job. And so I was looking around for something else and I looked at a lot of different businesses. [00:02:55] And I ended up coming upon real estate and I was able to, while I was a newspaper editor, I was able to buy five, two five unit apartment buildings in Palm Spring. Nice. And that was my introduction to property management. I was pretty much doing that during the day. We were putting out newspapers in a, from like three in the afternoon to midnight, you know, the press would roll at midnight and and I did it all, you know, I, from everything from dealing with the tenants face to, you know, patch and drywall to whatever collecting rents, chasing rents, made all the mistakes. [00:03:33] And I was, it was self education trial by fire. And then a few years later, I went into real estate full time and sales. I had a partner in the apartments who was actually the listing agent on those apartments at the time, but he invited me into real estate full time in 2001. [00:03:49] And then we were off on a, and it was a run. And so I, I did property management for a while from on our own properties. And then I've just morphed into sales and we were pretty successful and very busy and then the market crashed, and you know, we just kind of moved with the market.  [00:04:08] Jason: And when was that? [00:04:09] Like 2006,  [00:04:11] Brian: maybe, or?  [00:04:11] Yeah. So 2006 at least in our area, it was August, 2006 when we peaked sales wise. And in 2007, we had, I don't know, a dozen listings and nobody, you couldn't buy a showing, you know? And so 2007, it was the real estate market was, you know, dead man walking. It was, there was nobody really knew what was happening? Well, the masses, right? Some people knew, right? There was stuff going on obviously on wall street, but, the masses didn't know what was happening. Prices stayed up for awhile and they were, it was just like that, that hovering just before the, you know, you throw a ball in the air and it just kind of floats at the apex for a moment right before 2008 and then wow. [00:04:54] Right. Who knew? Yeah. So, You we just kind of morphed with it. I've worked, I did a lot of, I helped a lot of people with short sales, we worked in foreclosures and. And then I met my current business partner in sales working in an REO house as a buyer's agent. And we started our own company, Dream Big Real Estate, and that was 2008, 2009. [00:05:15] So from there, a couple of years later I just happened to say to my partner, you know, even though we were very busy, I said, "I really think we should launch a property management division" because at that time, my mentality was, it's a place where we can create sales listings, right? [00:05:35] And so we did that for a few years. And, you know, the interesting thing about it was that we didn't do any marketing. It was just really word of mouth, but. The day that I mentioned that to my partner, Tim, he just said, "yeah, cool, whatever." Right. he knew I was going to probably be working on it because I had the background in it, but I didn't tell anybody. [00:05:55] And the next day the phone rang and our first property management client just was calling out of the blue. Still have them, still work with them. [00:06:03] And then a week later, somebody else called. And it was the same thing, and that was our second client. Still working with them as well. And the, you know, I'm not into rubbing crystals or sleeping under pyramids, but you know, you ask the universe and the universe will provide. [00:06:19] Jason: One of the things that you mentioned, Brian, that I think's really interest is, it sounds like part of your journey, like there's this importance you've probably realized in partnerships. [00:06:28] because you've mentioned multiple times, you know, you partner with the listing agent and then eventually you partner with Tim. And so how is finding the right partners been instrumental in your growth and your progress? [00:06:41] Brian: Well, I will say this is that later on more recently, this year, they have broken out the property management business that was running as part of our real estate sales business. I've broken that out separately, and I'm now solo doing that. Right. Have had partners in the past, and I have found working with partners to be that there's advantages and disadvantages. Totally. It's hard to find, it's really difficult for partnerships to be successful because most people, the ego is getting in the way or, you know, there becomes a battle about, you know, who's doing what, who deserves this, who deserves that. [00:07:24] Yeah. Personality wise, I'm kind of roll with it person, you know? I'm more of a solution oriented person. Just what we need to get from point A to point B, what's the best way to do that? What for the good of the company, not necessarily for what's best for me personally. Yeah. So I've gone through a couple of partnerships with different people, I have been able to make that work from my point of view, because. [00:07:49] Because of my personality type, I think, but it is not for the the weak hearted, you know, I mean, it is some days are a lot harder than others.  [00:07:58] Jason: I've seen some of the most successful I've seen have really healthy partnerships in some of the worst situations I've seen where they couldn't grow because one was like an anchor, not willing to move and they had just as much decision making power and until they were able to get that partner out of the business, they weren't able to progress. So it can be a boost in the positive, but it's really difficult to find a really good match. [00:08:24] Brian: Yeah, and that's the thing is like, I'm more of a behind the scenes person, just in general, I'm more like I can implement. I generally will have the ideas as well, but I'm the one that I'm kind of a control freak, quite frankly, and so one of my character flaws is right now that I'm trying to work on is feeling like I need to touch everything, you know, because that's that is a throttle in the business. [00:08:48] Jason: Well, I think we all start there. Every entrepreneur starts there, so everybody listening should be able to empathize with that because you know we want to do a good job because we care. We want to look good. We care about how we look right like whatever it is. The challenge with being a control freak is trust and until we learn how to get and find people that we feel safe with, I don't think we're supposed to trust, you know. We're not supposed to just trust blindly. We need to find people that deserve to be trusted and know how to build that team. And that's probably kind of the next level, right? Is for you maybe is to build that team of people that you trust because when you get really great people, it's not hard to trust them. [00:09:30] Yeah. But they need to match you. Like they need to be a good coach. And then it's a lot easier to trust them. And so in this journey, you split out your business and then you have a property management business. It's all yours. You're still doing real estate stuff also? You still connected to that? [00:09:47] Brian: I am, but my mentality has shifted. It's probably been more than two years since the first time I talked to someone from your company and yet we didn't start with your company until, when was it, March this year? It was a two year lag of wrapping my mind around the philosophy of, Just making the shift, right? [00:10:06] Because property management always for us was a, just a holding place for future sales listings. And now, it's the business. Property management's the business and sales is ancillary benefit.  [00:10:21] Jason: So what prompted that shift? How did your brain work that out eventually?  [00:10:25] Brian: I think it's a combination of a variety of things. Having now 20 plus years in the business, I've been through an up and a down and an up and a flat, right? Who knows what the next one looks like. Is it eighties, nineties, or is it two thousands downturn? Yeah. And where I am in life, right. And I mean, do I want to work forever? Just slinging, right? Do I want to be out there, you know, showing, opening doors at, you know, 68 years old? [00:10:57] Jason: And chasing deals? Yeah.  [00:10:59] Brian: So mailbox money, right. Building a business that's sellable. Right now, or up until this point, I should say, it has been 100 percent every dollar that comes into our house is product of my labor, and that is a train coming down the track. [00:11:19] Right. So I needed to make some changes now that would have dramatic impacts on my future. If I wanted to change what I was doing, you know. [00:11:27] Jason: Yeah. Got it. Yeah. That switch from kind of recognizing you're kind of trading time for dollars to realizing, "Hey maybe I want to build something." [00:11:36] I mean, it's really tempting because you close one real estate deal, that can be a lot of money, but eventually I think there's a lot of real estate agents that wake up to this, that they're like, "Hey, if real estate kind of takes a nosedive or do I want to do this forever?" Maybe not. [00:11:52] Property management might be a really great business model.  [00:11:55] Brian: Like I said, we did our sales under under Better Homes and Gardens now, and I don't know, did I say that? Maybe in my own head. So the property management is under my own brokerage. The sales that we do, we work under Better Homes and Gardens. [00:12:10] I, you know, Tim and I as sales agents here until this year, we've been the number one agent, like since we came here. So seven, eight years, however long it's been. I do see the changes. I have seen the changes come in and perhaps it's a little bit of you just mental scar tissue from the crash of, you know, '8, '9, '10, ' 11. Yeah. It's just, you know, because the cracks have been forming in the foundation of this real estate sales market for a few years. Right. And it's been propped up artificially by government policies. Yeah. For three, four years. Right. And so, I've been waiting for a shoe to drop quite frankly. [00:12:51] And so two years ago a guy used to work for you, Jon. I called Jon back in like February this year. "Hey, Jon, you still working over at DoorGrow?" Jon was actually the one who said to me two years ago, two and a half years ago now, " if you do this, our expectation is that you're going to change your philosophy. You're going to be a property manager who doesn't do sales." What? That took me a while to embrace.  [00:13:17] Jason: Yeah. Yeah. Jon's a good friend of mine. We just went out to lunch recently. He's really sharp, dude. So, you know, I'm really curious, Brian, this journey from being a reporter for a while to real estate, to now shifting your identity into being a property manager, and that's the focus. How do you feel the reporter in you helps the property manager?  [00:13:44] Brian: Yeah, perfect proving ground. It's who I am is based on education, information gathering, being an advocate for consumers, right? [00:13:56] That's what I was trained to be as a reporter and editor, as a journalist, and that just morphs perfectly into what I do now, which is to look after my client's financial well being, right? And it doesn't hurt that I tend to over explain things, right? Because that's what I do, right? Is my job is to go out and gather information and then provide it in an objective way so that people can then make the best decisions for them and their family, right? So that's being a reporter, right? It is to shine a light on the facts so that people can decide. I mean, sometimes you got to take them by the hand and lead them down the path, right, educating them along the way. Yeah, for sure.  [00:14:37] Sarah: So what was the thing that made you go, "all right, I'm finally going to do this. Like I'm going to jump on board, get involved with DoorGrow and start really focusing on this property management thing? [00:14:49] Brian: Yeah. So earlier this year I had been kicking around, you know, you're looking at numbers, right? Kicking around the idea of "how much more time do I want to do this?" [00:14:59] And there were some personal things that got into it too, because you start looking at relationships and your family and looking at the things that are most important in your life. And priority wise, where have they been on your list? And so I decided I wanted to make some changes and then I lost some friends and family members just in the past year. [00:15:25] And so, one of the things that I picked up in the newspaper was Spending too much time in the office and and spending the less time seeing family and, you know, coming out of COVID and just, it's just like a combination of a lot of things all crashing together at one time.  [00:15:41] Sarah: We are under attack in our house right now. [00:15:43] We have groceries being delivered.  [00:15:45] Jason: Dogs are going nuts. [00:15:49] Our professional podcast, everybody, so.  [00:15:53] Brian: Anyway, so that was you know, some personal stuff came up and I decided to reevaluate. Now, in the past 10 plus years, I've been doing property management. [00:16:04] providing a supply of say two to six listings a year and making that shift. I don't know, it was a conversation with my wife and you know, running numbers and trying to figure out like, is it even possible? And there's a transition period because what you focus on is what you get. Right. So if I start focusing a hundred percent on property management, and how is that going to affect my income for people? You know, because what I do today in sales, that's not income for 90 days. Right. So at some point you have to be able to make that transition. And so, you know, it was a bit of a leap of faith. [00:16:42] And so, like I said, when I called Jon to ask if he was still working with you guys, then he said, no. He called me back though, but he said no, but he then referred me over to somebody. So, but making that switch, it wasn't an overnight decision by any means. [00:16:58] I agonized over it. It was sleepless nights, some nights. But I knew that I had to do something.  [00:17:04] Jason: So, well, you took a big risk then this leap of faith and then jumped on board with DoorGrow, decided to focus on property management. You feel like you made a good choice? [00:17:14] Brian: Yes. You don't know what you don't know. And so, I've been on a journey of learning what other people are doing, best practices, ancillary services to go along, you know, support type pieces of everything from other streams of income that are related that are, you know, not just management fees and placement fees, right? [00:17:37] I mean, there's a variety, but it's crazy what I've implemented just in the past six months, it's just been an insane pace and now I'm like eight days away from moving to a new, property management portal, and that will be the cherry on top, really. Most of the footwork of putting the foundation together will be mostly done, and then it's digging into processes. [00:18:02] Jason: Awesome. Yeah. So. Yeah. So you've made a lot of changes to your business and you said you've been learning it at an insane pace. So hopefully we're not making you bored with all this stuff. We've got plenty of stuff, right? It can be a bit overwhelming. We give the feedback on. So Brian, well, what's what's next for you in the future? [00:18:25] Brian: Right now I'm just trying to continue to learn from you and I'm just focusing on growing the number of doors that we manage and creating a business that will have sustainable and continuous growth and then part of the process has been, yes, putting the tools in place and doing the things that you know, I've been advised to do to create this and grow this business. [00:18:53] But when you start, you don't necessarily believe it, right? It truly is that leap of faith. And over time, my belief is starting to catch up with my activity. And so, you know, to go like when last week we literally hit the doubling point of when we started with you and after 10 years of just being flat from 30 to 35 units. And then now literally doubled it last week. And that's been from following your instruction, your philosophies and you know, focusing on building this business.  [00:19:30] Jason: Yeah. Well, I'm glad that the next 30 doors didn't take 10 years. That's awesome. Doubling in four months and I think things will speed up from here. So, well, I think that's a good place to end on. I think that's really awesome. So we appreciate you as a client. It's been great seeing your progress. You know, I think there's a lot of property managers out there that are like you, they come from the real estate industry. They want to get out of the hunt and the chase. Maybe they've been doing property management for even a decade, but you know, they haven't really made progress in their growth significantly in the last year or two or three or 10, you know, and and now maybe it's time, maybe it's time. [00:20:10] So maybe some parting words, Brian, what would you say to those that like they've been watching DoorGrow for a while? What would you say to them?  [00:20:17] Brian: Don't wait. You know, where would I be if I'd started two years ago? . I think about that occasionally, and then I have to stop myself because that just takes me off track. [00:20:26] And you get into that regret, you know, loop in your head. Like, no, I don't have time for that. I am where I'm now. And everybody is where they are now, right? And so you can either take action today or not, your results will reflect that. Yeah.  [00:20:42] Sarah: And you're exactly where you're supposed to be in that moment. I can do that to myself too. I can go back and go, "Oh, what if I did this sooner? It could be so much farther." Right. But I think that things just tend to work out the way that they're supposed to work out and things kind of line up. And I think you were prepped, right? [00:20:59] You knew about DoorGrow. You were kind of checking it out. You weren't sure if you were going to make that jump and you did when you were ready and it paid off.  [00:21:06] Jason: Yeah. So, there's a cool book called the gap and the gain. And the idea is that it's so easy for us as entrepreneurs to focus on the gap between where we should be by now. Where our dream or what we could have done. And that's not really an effective comparison psychologically. Like that, like doesn't make us feel super great about ourselves. But what is effective though, is to look at the gain. How far have we come? And I mean, four months. You've come a long way. [00:21:34] And so the next year, I think it's going to be really awesome for you. So I'm excited to see what you do, Brian. So thank you. All right. Thanks for coming on the DoorGrow show.  [00:21:44] Brian: Glad to be here. Thanks.  [00:21:46] Jason: Thanks again. All right. If you are a property management entrepreneur, you're wanting to grow your business. [00:21:51] Maybe you've been sitting stagnant for a while. You haven't had significant progress in the last year, maybe the year before that you might even be a really large company and you're not making progress. I've talked to several with thousands of doors in just the last week. We just got one of them on as a client and they've been struggling to figure out how to grow and they cannot even spend any more money on ads to get any more clients.  [00:22:13] It's not working. If you want to figure out how to start moving your business forward significantly, we can easily help you add 100, 200, maybe even 300 doors in a year. And it's without wasting money or spending money on advertising. And that might sound ridiculous, but Brian's going to do it. [00:22:29] Like we're seeing people do it all the time. So reach out, you can check us out at doorgrow. com. We would love to help you grow your business. Talk to you soon. Bye everyone. [00:22:39] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:23:06] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

Brian Lee shares his personal story of experiencing spiritual abuse and what led him to start Broken to Beloved, an online summit and support resource for survivors. Register for the Broken to Beloved Summit January 23-26, 2024 HEREBrian Lee is a pastor, coach, and speaker. As a survivor of spiritual abuse and religious trauma, he has spent his time since leaving vocational ministry in 2021 working to provide recovery and resources for fellow victims and survivors. In 2023, he created and founded Broken to Beloved, a nonprofit organization that exists to help other victims and survivors through its Annual Summit and seasonal Cohorts, while also providing trauma awareness and safeguarding practices to pastors, leaders and churches.Based in Richmond, VA, Brian loves to go on outdoor adventures with his family, explore their neighborhood, community, and city, find good parks, enjoy good food, and have fun together. As a coffee snob and addict, he could always use another cup. Transcript (Transcript is unedited for typos or misspellings): Katherine: hey, Brian. Brian: Hey, Katherine. How's it going? Going? All right. How about you? Doing, Katherine: doing well, doing, doing okay for doing okay. Or a Tuesday. Brian: It's just for the end of the month slash year slash the world is losing its mind. Katherine: Right. I know like there's been a lot of moments this week where somebody will say something about Christmas and I'm like, Oh, that's, that's on Sunday.Yes. Okay. We are, we are still, there is still Christmas. Yes. Well, thanks for joining me. I am really excited to talk to you about your summit that you are hosting and curating in January for Spiritual Abuse Awareness Month. At the time this episode comes out, it will already be January. So I'm really excited to hear about that.I got to participate in that [00:01:00] last year. We'll be participating again this year. Great time to just connect with other people working in this spiritual abuse, recovery, religious trauma, recovery space, and also. Spiritual Abuse Awareness Month for folks who are not aware is in January. And we were talking before we started recording about when we first heard about Spiritual Abuse Awareness Month.When, when was it for listeners that you first Brian: heard about it? I just learned about it last year because, and I, but to be fair, I've only been doing this work for about a year now. I wish I knew about it sooner. And I think we were both saying it's like, we can't find who originated this thing. But it's been around for at least 20 years, which to me is crazy.Yeah. I learned about it because of Aaron hung, who's an artist who was doing that whole AZ trauma recovery series on her Instagram page. And I was like, spiritually, it'd be some awareness a month. That's a thing. And then the more I dove into it, I was like, Oh my gosh, this is absolutely a thing. And it's been around a long time.Why do we not know more about it? Katherine: Exactly. I was wondering too, when, [00:02:00] when did that book, the oldest probably. Documented writing about spiritual abuse is probably the subtle power of spiritual abuse. I Brian: think that's what I was thinking. Yep. And that was, I think it was written in the 90s. I want to say, okay, I'm going to look for a publication date because I want to be sure.But I remember reading it thinking I was like, did they just write this like a year ago? And it's like, no, it's been around for a very long time. Yeah, Katherine: yeah, yeah. And then even just like the reality that PTSD. Was not an official diagnosis until the 80s. Brian: Yes. Katherine: Yes. We're very new in this trauma world. Yes.We're all very new to this. This is a new, new territory for all of us. Did you, did you find the Brian: date? Amazon says the publication date is 2005, but that seems late to me. I feel like it was before that. It has a very nice Katherine: cover. Brian: It does! Which is why I feel like it is. So now I'm opening my Kindle to look for the actual copyright date on the inside of it.Yeah, Katherine: maybe that was the most [00:03:00] recent Brian: publication. That's what I'm wondering. Library, look for the yellow book right there. The yellow book. Yeah. That's what I call it. The yellow book. Copyright page. 1991. You were right. Boom. Boom. First time. Katherine: First time. Yeah. So I guess that's the first time that that became something Brian: that.People and for reference to me that feels like 10 years ago, but it's 32 years ago.Yes, I know that tells you how old I am feel like that long ago, but because it wasn't it wasn't Katherine: Yeah, I know because i'm like i've lived Yeah, I've lived longer in the 2000s than I lived in the, in the, in the, in the 1900s, 1900s or so. Brian: It's been a while. How dare you? Yes, we are, we are, we're getting, we're getting up there.We're getting up there. Yes, yes we are. [00:04:00] Speaking of Katherine: age, actually I have nothing. Nothing to say about it. I'm just trying to segue talking about broken to beloved, which is your summit that's coming up and to get us started. I would love to hear whatever you feel comfortable sharing about your spiritual abuse story and how can you, you said that you discovered this word, right?Or this phrase, spiritual abuse, this term fairly recently, when did you, maybe just to start out, when did you first hear the term and did you have an aha moment like many of us Brian: do? Gosh, when did I first hear the term? I honestly don't even know, but it was probably from one of the books that I started reading that validated that experience for me.It might have been K. J. Ramsey's book The Lord is My Courage, and I read it more as a, oh, maybe this will help me in a [00:05:00] dark season, and that's one of my favorite psalms anyway, so, and then I didn't realize she was going to go into their whole spiritual abuse story, and then I am a person who reads all the footnotes and then goes and finds all the primary resources and reads those, so Katherine: that's favorite reader.They were like, we put this in here for you. Brian: Yes. Well, and that's, I love footnotes. So, so because of her, I think is, is how I found the subtle power of spiritual abuse. And then from there, I went down the rabbit hole. I mean, something's not right. Redeeming Power, Church Called Tove, Try Softer, Narcissism Comes to Church, you know, all these books.And now in the last two years, I've read over 40. Five books on that topic, which seems overwhelming because it kind of is, but it all came out of my personal experience, right? So I left my last church in July of 2021. I had been there for just about three years, I think. And I walked into that church.[00:06:00] My wife and I have both moved here saying to each other it would be really nice if this works out And if it doesn't because we've already been hurt before I think we're done with ministry for a while Which feels kind of crazy to walk into a church saying that like this is the last stop Yes.Basically. Yeah. Not indefinitely, not forever, but for a while, we're going to just give this a break because we're done. And so, you know, my story goes back over 10 years now, I think I worked at a Christian college as the marketing, as the graphic designer for the marketing department. I had also attended and graduated from that college, which isn't unusual.But it was a completely different experience being a student there than it was being on staff there. And I didn't know what to do with the cognitive dissonance of looking at leaders that I respected and admired Who seemed to preach the gospel and talk about servant leadership and humility and all these things But then I would be sitting in meetings I was like I don't know who this person is who is so [00:07:00] angry and belittling and demeaning and authoritarian and all these pieces And so finally leaving that environment I need to ask you a Katherine: question, just like following up on that, because I feel like that's such a common theme of like the, what you preach and what you teach is not who you are.And I just, I just hear that all the time. And just was talking to someone about the other day about her father, who was a pastor and he. He was a pastor and he would preach these things about like parenting and then he would like not be that type of parent. And I'm just curious from the experience that you had what, what is your take on that of like, why, like, you obviously know what's right.Where, where is this disconnect happening because you can preach it enough to convince people then what's happening here. What's your Brian: [00:08:00] take on that? My take for the last two or three years now has been, it all boils down to the need for power and control. And this message is going to work and this message is going to work.And so the secondary or maybe even tertiary word that comes out of that is optics. It all comes down to optics and the way things look and appear so that I can maintain power and control. And so if I can maintain this image of, then I will continue to have power and control and influence over these people as long as they don't see behind the curtain.And if they do see behind the curtain, it doesn't matter because I control them anyway because I'm their boss, right? Or because I am their spiritual authority or leader or whatever it is. So I, it's wrecking. Man, there's so many ways I can go so the last pastor I had would often say things like when I first started.It's like you have to recognize the hats that you wear when you walk into a room. So I know that I'm the [00:09:00] pastor. So I know that there's a power dynamic. So I had to be aware that when I'm leading a conversation or that there's going to be a shift in something somewhere. But then this is the same guy who would absolutely manipulate that power dynamic.Yeah, or pretend that he was the servant or the victim or the low man on the totem pole is like you don't get it both ways. Like so. So I know that you cognitively know these things to be true. And yet I see you do the polar opposite. And then use those things to twist them to your advantage. Yes. In the way of whether ignorantly or intentionally, both are worse, harming someone else in the process.Katherine: Yeah, and that is the crux of spiritual abuse and why it is devastating and so damaging and so complex and so confusing is like these people are preaching these good messages that they are aware are quote unquote good messages, but [00:10:00] using that intentionally to manipulate and control people. So then these good messages.suddenly become infused with this thing that makes us just terrified. Brian: Poison. It's poison. Katherine: Yeah. And we're just, we're just like, I can't even engage with this, even though some of this stuff is really good, you know, that. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and yet it just causes this. Massive cavern of, of just fear and doubt and trauma.Brian: Yes, I think that's where a lot of the confusion comes from, too, is because, because so much of it is truth, right? Or is based on quote, good intentions or scripture or whatever it is, but then you see it manipulated and twisted. So now you don't know what to believe or what's true or good anymore.Right, and you can't Katherine: trust good people who are saying absolutely, it's like absolutely walk into a room and you're like, are they good or [00:11:00] not, you know, just, just being able to trust, even just what people say and like, and then you're kind of in evangelicalism and church culture, you like you walk into a church and and everyone's believing the same thing.Well, Are, are they, are they, are we, are we all on the same page here? I talked to someone the other day that like teaches their children just because someone is a pastor doesn't mean they're interpreting scripture actually accurately. And I was like, okay, that's a very wise thing to teach your child, but so sad that you're saying.has led you to teach that to your child. Brian: Yeah. Yeah. Same. Well, and I've heard, I've heard parents and other people just like, because normally we instruct our kids to pay attention or listen to the grownups. And I've heard other grown up, other adults and friends say, it's like, actually, that's not always true because grownups won't always tell you the right thing to do, or they might be wanting to hurt you in some kind of way.And it's like, I hate that we have to teach our kids that, but it's, that's [00:12:00] the way of the world today. And it's just really unfortunate and sad and grieving. Katherine: Yes. When you're allowed to be afraid of Santa Claus. Yes. Brian: Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. Yes. That's okay if you're afraid. So trust your gut on that one.Yeah. So anyway, so I went through that experience three times in three different environments. Three times. The first time, not necessarily in a row, but very close. So the first time at a college with an older leader, mentor, figure, admired. Second time with a, someone who very young and then I had a short break for about two years and then ended up where I was now with someone who's basically my contemporary.But it's just getting it, getting hit from all sides of it. And I had had enough. So when we left, when I left the church in July of 21, I was like, I am absolutely done for a while and I've got to figure all of this out because I don't know why it keeps happening to me, you know, a result of all the gas lighting is like, it must be my fault.So it must be something wrong in the denominator. [00:13:00] Exactly. And we had already been seeing our counselor therapist for a while. So we just kind of dove into the topic head first. It's like, I just, I'm in a tailspin. I don't know what to do. Like, I don't know which way is up right now, and I just help. Just help.And she, she is a trauma informed therapist, which was extreme. I'm grateful for, because that's not why we started going to her. But that helped to process all of this stuff and then finding these books and finding these resources and chasing the rabbit holes got me to the place was like, okay, I can name spiritual abuse.I can define it. I can name trauma and define it. And after about a year and a half. Of doing that work and processing through the trauma and the abuse. I was like, I think I might be in a place where I feel like I'm doing better and I'm not doing great, but I'm definitely better than I was. And I think I actually have a framework for how I want to help other people because everywhere around me, I see people dealing with the same thing.And I hate that we're all here. Katherine: [00:14:00] Absolutely. Did you have, when you were like doing research, did you have something that you, how are you defining it at the time? You just calling it church hurt. What were you Googling? Brian: What were the things that you? Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean, I think it starts with church hurts.That's kind of the phrase that people hear. And then once I got my brain around the term spiritual abuse, I was like, Oh, okay. And then of course everyone quotes, the body keeps a score. So I forced myself through that one. And then through that one learned, learned trauma and then found books on religious trauma and started doing that whole thing.So just coming up with definitions and just kind of collecting all these in a master Google doc for my brain and figuring it out from there. Katherine: Yeah. Yeah. And then at what point did you say? Yeah. So you said that I want to help people and help make sense of this. Where did the vision for broken to beloved come from?Cause last year was the first year, right? April, wait, I guess that's this year, right? [00:15:00] Brian: Yeah, it is. Yeah. April of this year. Yeah. 20, 23 at the time. So it didn't start as broken into beloved. It started as a six week cohort, which I call through, which is based on the children's book. Going on a bear hunt because we can't go around it.Can't go over it. You just got to go through it. Right. And that came up from a friend, Amy. I was speaking at her summit. She does an Enneagram summit and I also do Enneagram coaching, but she said, what do you want to talk about? I was like, this sounds crazy, but. Do you want to talk like, can I talk about like spiritual abuse?She goes, what? We have to do that. And so it just got all my wheels turning and then that's what kind of turned into the cohort. So I, I created a framework for a six week cohort to lead people. You know, and the story of that is like, because I over identified myself as broken for so long, I literally walked into this last church interview with the pastors and elders and said, Listen, they were like, hey, why should we hire you?And my answer was, well, actually, you [00:16:00] don't want to hire me because I'm damaged goods. Let me just disqualify myself to you now because you don't want me because I'm broken and I'm really damaged. So you don't want me here. And so I recognize that I was wearing that as my identity. And so through KJ Ramsey's book, through all these other books that identified Wade Mullin, something's not right and all these other things, it's like, Oh, okay, so maybe I'm not the problem.Yeah, maybe there's stuff broken in the system and it's not to say I'm not blameless for a lot of things because I certainly am but it was Developing a framework for what does it look like to move out of my brokenness and to actually name the things that have happened to Me because we can't heal what we can't name.So naming things is really important Recognizing where I am in time and space so that I can pull myself to the present and recognize when I'm safe when I'm not When I'm triggered or activated when I'm not And then using all the polyvagal theory stuff that she includes in there. And then [00:17:00] recognizing how embodiment is so important and breath practices and mindfulness things and moving forward so that we can recognize, identify, and then embrace our belovedness as our actual identity, not our brokenness.So the cohort came first in October of 2022. It went really, really well. I did it again in January of 23, which is the beginning of the year that we're recording. And so coming out of those two cohorts, I was like, man, it seems like there's an audience for this and a need for it. And all the books that I have read have done a really great job defining terms for me.They do a good job of validating experiences and telling stories. I've read almost nothing that offers what now? Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Like, I just don't know what to do. Like, okay, great. Thanks for sharing the information, but what do I actually do now? Cause I still feel stuck. So the whole point of the broken to beloved summit, which came from the bookends of the cohort of starting broken and ending beloved [00:18:00] was to invite all the authors that I had read and the resources that I had found online, get them in one place and just say, great.What now? What now? What now? And to make it practical, right? So the whole tagline I use for everything is finding a pathway toward healing and wholeness. When Katherine: you were describing yourself as broken when you would walk into these interviews, what did that mean to you? Was that yeah, expound on what that meant and then how is that showing up for Brian: you?I don't know if I've ever been asked that question. I just felt broken. Like my whole brain was. I'm just unsure of what to believe or what was right or wrong. I'm also an Enneagram One, which is very right wrong, black white minded. I always think I have to do things the right way. So for me It was always a, well, if I was fired from this place, or if I had to leave because I was so toxic, what did I do wrong?But other people [00:19:00] loved me, and it was just this group, so maybe it was, maybe it was them, but maybe it was me, but I'm not sure, and I think I'm really good at my job. And people tell me I'm good at my job, but the pastor just told me I'm not and that he needs to replace me because the board told him so even though they've never given me feedback in any of my reviews that anything needed to change when I've been asking for them for years.So it's, it's all that kind of stuff that in your brain messes with you. It's also the the second place that we left, we were friends with. The pastor and his wife, we graduated together. We were alumni together. I was like, we thought we were friends. We hung out at each other's houses. And then to do something like that and to feel so stabbed in the back, really It was a, it was just kind of whiplash, right?It's like, what, what, what happened there? And so what's wrong with me and what's wrong with my relationships? Cause I thought we were okay, but apparently not because then this happens. So walking into this last interview to just say, Hey, I'm damaged goods. I'm broken. I mean, that's really what it was. And then I had [00:20:00] had two years at another church where I.Genuinely thrived for two years. And I was like, Oh, there's actually a different way to do things. Yeah. And I didn't realize that. And then we experienced more trauma. One of our best friends passed away tragically in a car accident. And so that threw everything into tailspin and dealing with the aftermath of that.So it was just kind of like, Hey, we're really not in a good place right now for a transition or for something to change. And yet I felt so. Bound is not the right word I'm looking for, but I'm going to use it by the whole idea of. If God wants to do something here, I don't want to close the door and say no.And I don't say that to over spiritualize anything or myself, but it's just the words that came out of my mouth at the time. So we just kind of kept going with the process. And I remember the first several weeks slash months of having started this job, just trying to be really vulnerable with people and honest, just like, listen, I, I don't come here pretending I'm perfect in any [00:21:00] way I'm really broken right now and we need help. Just so you know that, and I might have some answers or help for you, but I'm coming at it from a position of brokenness and the more I do this work, the more I recognize how okay that really is.Katherine: Yeah, and it kind of sounds like as you're describing. What brokenness was to you? It sounds like trauma, but it sounds like internalized trauma of this is somehow my fault, like these outside messages and this trauma that I'm experiencing is due to something. Brian: Yeah. Potentially. Well, and isn't that part of the toxic theology that a lot of churches teach is like that you are responsible for your sins and how they label everything as sin.So if something bad happened in your life, it must be your fault because you weren't holy enough. You didn't pray enough. You didn't whatever [00:22:00] enough. Right. And it's like not. Not taking into account any of the effects of abuse where the abused actually did nothing. It's like when a woman gets raped, Oh, what were you wearing?How did you contribute? What perfume do you have? It's like, come on, really? But that's where I was mentally, emotionally, all the things. Katherine: Yeah, and that thin layer of, like, you must be sinning or God is, like, sanctifying you and is allowing these happen, these things to happen to, like, grow your faith or, you know, and, like, getting to that place, naming, as you said, getting to that place where you just, you're just able to point out it and to say this was not okay, period.Like should never have happened. We should never should never have had to go through this like this was never an okay thing when you got to your church, the last church and you like was this the church that you were [00:23:00] saying I am broken and I am damaged goods. Yes. And then that Brian: obviously didn't go did not pan out.Was Katherine: that used against you Brian: was what part used against me? The fact that you were Katherine: open about your brokenness. Brian: Yes and no, I would say by the pastor. Yes, because I think in the kindest way I can say this possible, he's a master manipulator. So I think he knew us coming in and me saying those things up front and they pitched themselves very much as, oh, well, we are a healing church.We're a place where people come so they can just receive and sit back and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Right. And but then, you know, six months, two months, four months, two years later, they're saying, Oh, you're still praying for that thing. You're not healed yet. Are you not over that yet? Right? It's that kind of stuff.And so those are the major red flags that go up. It's like, maybe this is not such a great place. Katherine: Absolutely. Absolutely. So pitching themselves as a healing place and then, and then not. [00:24:00] Not so Brian: much. Yeah, maybe you used to be but not so Katherine: much today. How would you say? broken to beloved is Creating a space that you would say is just like healthier than that Like how how are you seeking to make that a healthy space for Brian: people?Mm hmm. That's a great question. Thank you I don't know cuz I'm still figuring it out. One of the first words that comes to mind is honesty and trying to be honest about Whatever it is that we are feeling or naming or experiencing because one of the things I've learned is that when we try to push away or repress any of those things, we often get ourselves in trouble because it's something is trying to be expressed there.And it doesn't mean that we. Allow rage or ranting to take place just because because there are safe places to do to do that too, but probably not within a general community, right? Within an intimate relationship, [00:25:00] maybe, but not within a an open space. So I think the honesty piece is one of them. I think the openness is another.Another word that comes to mind is kindness. I think there was an interview I did last year with David Gate, who does all that kind of typewriter poetry, which I love. And he said something that really has stuck with me ever since. And it's this idea that you can have all these progressive, or not progressive, all these fundamentalist Christians.Or conservatives or evangelicals or whatever you want to call them who go through this process of abuse and or trauma and then deconstruction and then leave the church or whatever it is, but they don't actually examine or change anything and they just switch over to progressive liberalism or progressivism or whatever it is, and they're still fundamentalists at heart.Absolutely. And I think the fundamentalist piece, the certainty that so many people carry. Doesn't make room for curiosity [00:26:00] and kindness which I think embodies a lot of what I'm trying to do is to be open and curious and kind because I also see voices online who just come across as angry all the time.It's like, I get it. There's room for that. I'm angry too. But, and there are times that I drive by the church and I'm like, can we just burn it all down? Sure. Right. I feel all that, but it doesn't, I don't feel helped or served by it. Yeah. The Psalms, when I did an interview this morning, and the Psalms are 75 to 80 percent imprecatory and lament, so there's plenty of room for honest, raw emotion, but there's also a time and place for it, and it doesn't have to be public, and I don't, actually, here's, here's a good thing, I don't need everyone to agree with me.Because your experience is your own and you need to figure out how you're going to process it. Here's how I've processed mine and I'm not going to prescribe anything to you that you should do it this way too. But I'm going to approach it with openness [00:27:00] and kindness and curiosity and hopefully safety.Yeah. Katherine: Yeah. And I think like that. Openness, kindness, curiosity can create that safety and, and, and having that space where people can come on their own journey and find their own, their own, yeah, like find their own, their own path. And, and, and that's also just sort of like, Anti the opposite of what we experienced in the church of like, only me, the person with the, you know, title can tell you what is helpful and what, what God is really saying and putting that agency back into each individual person is sweet.Not what we were taught church and we were taught not to trust ourselves in the church context. And so, yeah, I love that, that openness, openness, kindness, and curiosity. I love it. What are some of your hopes and [00:28:00] dreams for the summit?Brian: I hope that it's helpful. I hope that it feels practical for people. I hope that people walk away with a sense of, I mean, the three words I use most often are hope, healing, and wholeness. And I say that knowing that there is real harm done when others try to prescribe a timeline to your healing. That healing is not a destination, right?And I think Laura Anderson just wrote about this in her book. It's like healing is not a destination. It's not an arrival point. It's something that we are just Doing probably for the rest of our lives. So when I say that, it's not like, Hey, show up to the summit and you will be healed. Absolutely not. But I do hope it gives you really practical tools that you can walk away with and say, Oh, this thing will help me.Right. This thing will help me to take a step. And so we had 1, 200 people register last year, which blows my mind for trying something for the first time. [00:29:00] So I it would be great to have as many or more. Not because of numbers, because God knows I hate numbers because so many churches are driven by it. But the idea that people are helped.And and moved in that direction of healing and wholeness and hope, I think so many of us who go through this kind of abuse or trauma walk away feeling so isolated, broken, like you're saying, with a lack of agency or not empowered that my hope is that you walk away with a sense of hope, feeling empowered and a sense of agency to take control of something in your life because so much of it has been stripped away from you.I think those are the kinds of things I hope for. Yeah, Katherine: absolutely. And I think even just the reality that we can like walk into a space and it's, you know, 18 or whatever speakers all speaking on something similar. And so there's this awareness that like, at least all of these people have, have, have some experience with this thing.I've gone through this or understand this and that [00:30:00] validation of like, yes, oh, people are talking about this. And people see this as something that is really important and causes a lot of pain and deserves attention, deserves an entire summit. I think that that in itself is, is So validating and so helpful.What's, what is some information about this? What can you tell us about how folks can find the summit register if they're ready for it?Brian: Sure. We do have dates. We will be January 23rd through 26th. Last year was 3 days. I learned that was too short to pack that many speakers talking about trauma and abuse. So I'm spreading it out over 4 days and I'm inviting less speakers. So it's not so overwhelming every day. If you go to BrokenToBeloved. org slash subscribe, you can join my mailing list, which is where I'll probably send information first. Or you can just follow me on Instagram, which are where I post when I have time to[00:31:00] at BrokenToBeloved.Okay. All Katherine: right. I'll all of this information in the show notes Brian: so folks can read it. Thank you. Katherine: And I'm very excited to be there and to be a part of it, watch all of the speakers. And is there anything else that you want to share about broken to beloved the cohort. Your journey, Brian: anything? No, I, I mean, we are like you, a 501 C three.So if you're looking for someone to support or an organization, this is the work that we're trying to do. So you can just go to same broken to beloved. org and you can find all the stuff there. I'm super grateful for you and your work and having stumbled across you last year. I, I love and support the stuff that you're doing as well.Grateful to have you at the summit twice now. Um, And just love doing the work with you. Katherine: Yeah, so I'm glad to partner in this with you as well. Thanks so Brian: much. Thank you.

About BrianBrian is an accomplished dealmaker with experience ranging from developer platforms to mobile services. Before InfluxData, Brian led business development at Twilio. Joining at just thirty-five employees, he built over 150 partnerships globally from the company's infancy through its IPO in 2016. He led the company's international expansion, hiring its first teams in Europe, Asia, and Latin America. Prior to Twilio Brian was VP of Business Development at Clearwire and held management roles at Amp'd Mobile, Kivera, and PlaceWare.Links Referenced:InfluxData: https://www.influxdata.com/ TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: This episode is bought to you in part by our friends at Veeam. Do you care about backups? Of course you don't. Nobody cares about backups. Stop lying to yourselves! You care about restores, usually right after you didn't care enough about backups.  If you're tired of the vulnerabilities, costs and slow recoveries when using snapshots to restore your data, assuming you even have them at all living in AWS-land, there is an alternative for you. Check out Veeam, thats V-E-E-A-M for secure, zero-fuss AWS backup that won't leave you high and dry when it's time to restore. Stop taking chances with your data. Talk to Veeam. My thanks to them for sponsoring this ridiculous podcast.Corey: This episode is brought to us by our friends at Pinecone. They believe that all anyone really wants is to be understood, and that includes your users. AI models combined with the Pinecone vector database let your applications understand and act on what your users want… without making them spell it out.Make your search application find results by meaning instead of just keywords, your personalization system make picks based on relevance instead of just tags, and your security applications match threats by resemblance instead of just regular expressions. Pinecone provides the cloud infrastructure that makes this easy, fast, and scalable. Thanks to my friends at Pinecone for sponsoring this episode. Visit Pinecone.io to understand more.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. It's been a year, which means it's once again time to have a promoted guest episode brought to us by our friends at InfluxData. Joining me for a second time is Brian Mullen, CMO over at InfluxData. Brian, thank you for agreeing to do this a second time. You're braver than most.Brian: Thanks, Corey. I'm happy to be here. Second time is the charm.Corey: So, it's been an interesting year to put it mildly and I tend to have the attention span of a goldfish of most days, so for those who are similarly flighty, let's start at the very top. What is an InfluxDB slash InfluxData slash Influx—when you're not sure which one to use, just shorten it and call it good—and why might someone need it?Brian: Sure. So, InfluxDB is what most people understand our product as, a pretty popular open-source product, been out for quite a while. And then our company, InfluxData is the company behind InfluxDB. And InfluxDB is where developers build IoT real-time analytics and cloud applications, typically all based on time series. It's a time-series data platform specifically built to handle time-series data, which we think about is any type of data that is stamped in time in some way.It could be metrics, like, taken every one second, every two seconds, every three seconds, or some kind of event that occurs and is stamped in time in some way. So, our product and platform is really specialized to handle that technical problem.Corey: When last we spoke, I contextualized that in the realm of an IoT sensor that winds up reporting its device ID and its temperature at a given timestamp. That is sort of baseline stuff that I think aligns with what we're talking about. But over the past year, I started to see it in a bit of a different light, specifically viewing logs as time-series data, which hadn't occurred to me until relatively recently. And it makes perfect sense, on some level. It's weird to contextualize what Influx does as being a logging database, but there's absolutely no reason it couldn't be.Brian: Yeah, it certainly could. So typically, we see the world of time-series data in kind of two big realms. One is, as you mentioned the, you know, think of it as the hardware or, you know, physical realm: devices and sensors, these are things that are going to show up in a connected car, in a factory deployment, in renewable energy, you know, wind farm. And those are real devices and pieces of hardware that are out in the physical world, collecting data and emitting, you know, time-series every one second, or five seconds, or ten minutes, or whatever it might be.But it also, as you mentioned, applies to, call it the virtual world, which is really all of the software and infrastructure that is being stood up to run applications and services. And so, in that world, it could be the same—it's just a different type of source, but is really kind of the same technical problem. It's still time-series data being stamped, you know, data being stamped every, you know, one second, every five seconds, in some cases, every millisecond, but it is coming from a source that is actually in the infrastructure. Could be, you know, virtual machines, it could be containers, it could be microservices running within those containers. And so, all of those things together, both in the physical world and this infrastructure world are all emitting time-series data.Corey: When you take a look at the broader ecosystem, what is it that you see that has been the most misunderstood about time-series data as a whole? For example, when I saw AWS talking about a lot of things that they did in the realm of for your data lake, I talked to clients of mine about this and their response is, “Well, that'd be great genius, if we had a data lake.” It's, “What do you think those petabytes of nonsense in S3 are?” “Oh, those are the logs and the assets and a bunch of other nonsense.” “Yeah, that's what other people are calling a data lake.” “Oh.” Do you see similar lights-go-on moment when you talk to clients and prospective clients about what it is that they're doing that they just hadn't considered to be time-series data previously?Brian: Yeah. In fact, that's exactly what we see with many of our customers is they didn't realize that all of a sudden, they are now handling a pretty sizable time-series workload. And if you kind of take a step back and look at a couple of pretty obvious but sometimes unrecognized trends in technology, the first is cloud applications in general are expanding, they're both—horizontally and vertically. So, that means, like, the workloads that are being run in the Netflix's of the world, or all the different infrastructure that's being spun up in the cloud to run these various, you know, applications and services, those workloads are getting bigger and bigger, those companies and their subscriber bases, and the amount of data they're generating is getting bigger and bigger. They're also expanding horizontally by region and geography.So Netflix, for example, running not just in the US, but in every continent and probably every cloud region around the world. So, that's happening in the cloud world, and then also, in the IoT world, there's this massive growth of connected devices, both net-new devices that are being developed kind of, you know, the next Peloton or the next climate control unit that goes in an apartment or house, and also these longtime legacy devices that are been on the factory floor for a couple of decades, but now are being kind of modernized and coming online. So, if you look at all of that growth of the data sources now being built up in the cloud and you look at all that growth of these connected devices, both new and existing, that are kind of coming online, there's a huge now exponential growth in the sources of data. And all of these sources are emitting time-series data. You can just think about a connected car—not even a self-driving car, just a connected car, your everyday, kind of, 2022 model, and nearly every element of the car is emitting time-series data: its engine components, you know, your tires, like, what the climate inside of the car is, statuses of the engine itself, and it's all doing that in real-time, so every one second, every five seconds, whatever.So, I think in general, people just don't realize they're already dealing with a substantial workload of time series. And in most cases, unless they're using something like Influx, they're probably not, you know, especially tuned to handle it from a technology perspective.Corey: So, it's been a year. What has changed over on your side of the world since the last time we spoke? It seems that well, things continue and they're up and to the right. Well, sure, generally speaking, you're clearly still in business. Good job, always appreciative of your custom, as well as the fact that oh, good, even in a world where it seems like there's a macro recession in progress, that there are still companies out there that continue to persist and in some cases, dare I say, even thrive? What have you folks been up to?Brian: Yeah, it's been a big year. So first, we've seen quite a bit of expansion across the use cases. So, we've seen even further expansion in IoT, kind of expanding into consumer, industrial, and now sustainability and clean energy, and that pairs with what we've seen on FinTech and cryptocurrency, gaming and entertainment applications, network telemetry, including some of the biggest names in telecom, and then a little bit more on the cloud side with cloud services, infrastructure, and dev tools and APIs. So, quite a bit more broad set of use cases we're now seeing across the platform. And the second thing is—you might have seen it in the last month or so—is a pretty big announcement we had of our new storage engine.So, this was just announced earlier this month in November and was previously introduced to our community as what we call an IOx, which is how it was known in the open-source. And think of this really as a rebuilt and reimagined storage engine which is built on that open-source project, InfluxDB IOx that allows us to deliver faster queries, and now—pretty exciting for the first time—unlimited time-series, or cardinality as it's known in the space. And then also we introduced SQL for writing queries and BI tool support. And this is, for the first time we're introducing SQL, which is world's most popular data programming language to our platform, enabling developers to query via the API our language Flux, and InfluxQL in addition.Corey: A long time ago, it really seems that the cloud took a vote, for lack of a better term, and decided that when it comes to storage, object store is the way forward. It was a bit of a reimagining from how we all considered using storage previously, but the economics are at minimum of ten to one in favor of objects store, the latency is far better, the durability is off the charts better, you don't have to deal—at least in AWS-land—with the concept of availability zones and the rest, just from an economic and performance perspective, provided the use case embraces it, there's really no substitute.Brian: Yeah, I mean, the way we think about storage is, you know, obviously, it varies quite a bit from customer to customer with our use cases. Especially in IoT, we see some use cases where customers want to have data around for months and in some cases, years. So, it's a pretty substantial data set you're often looking at. And sometimes those customers want to downsample those, they don't necessarily need every single piece of minutia that they may need in real-time, but not in summary, looking backward. So, you really—we're in this kind of world where we're dealing with both hive fidelity—usually in the moment—data and lower fidelity, when people can downsample and have a little bit more of a summarized view of what happened.So, pretty unique for us and we have to kind of design the product in a way that is able to balance both of those because that's what, you know, the customer use cases demand. It's a super hard problem to solve. One of the reasons that you have a product like InfluxDB, which is specialized to handle this kind of thing, is so that you can actually manage that balance in your application service and setting your retention policy, et cetera.Corey: That's always been something that seemed a little on the odd side to me when I'm looking at a variety of different observability tools, where it seems that one of the key dimensions that they all tend to, I guess, operate on and price on is retention period. And I get it; you might not necessarily want to have your load balancer logs from 2012 readily available and paying for the privilege, but it does seem that given the dramatic fall of archival storage pricing, on some level, people do want to be able to retain that data just on the off chance that will be useful. Maybe that's my internal digital packrat chiming in at this point, but I do believe strongly that there is a correlation between how recent the data is and how useful it is, for a variety of different use cases. But that's also not a global truth. How do you view the divide? And what do you actually see people saying they want versus what they're actually using?Brian: It's a really good question and not a simple problem to solve. So, first of all, I would say it probably really depends on the use case and the extent to which that use case is touching real world applications and services. So, in a pure observability setting where you're looking at, perhaps more of a, kind of, operational view of infrastructure monitoring, you want to understand kind of what happened and when those tend to be a little bit more focused on real-time and recent. So, for example, you of course, want to know exactly what's happening in the moment, zero in on whatever anomaly and kind of surrounding data there is, perhaps that means you're digging into something that happened in you know, fairly recent time. So, those do tend to be, not all of them, but they do tend to be a little bit more real-time and recent-oriented.I think it's a little bit different when we look at IoT. Those generally tend to be longer timeframes that people are dealing with. Their physical out-in-the-field devices, you know, many times those devices are kind of coming online and offline, depending on the connectivity, depending on the environment, you can imagine a connected smart agriculture setup, I mean, those are a pretty wide array of devices out and in, you know, who knows what kind of climate and environment, so they tend to be a little bit longer in retention policy, kind of, being able to dig into the data, what's happening. The time frame that people are dealing with is just, in general, much longer in some of those situations.Corey: One story that I've heard a fair bit about observability data and event data is that they inevitably compose down into metrics rather than events or traces or logs, and I have a hard time getting there because I can definitely see a bunch of log entries showing the web servers return codes, okay, here's the number of 500 errors and number of different types of successes that we wind up seeing in the app. Yeah, all right, how many per minute, per second, per hour, whatever it is that makes sense that you can look at aberrations there. But in the development process at least, I find that having detailed log messages tell me about things I didn't see and need to understand or to continue building the dumb thing that I'm in the process of putting out. It feels like once something is productionalized and running, that its behavior is a lot more well understood, and at that point, metrics really seem to take over. How do you see it, given that you fundamentally live at that intersection where one can become the other?Brian: Yeah, we are right at that intersection and our answer probably would be both. Metrics are super important to understand and have that regular cadence and be kind of measuring that state over time, but you can miss things depending on how frequent those metrics are coming in. And increasingly, when you have the amount of data that you're dealing with coming from these various sources, the measurement is getting smaller and smaller. So, unless you have, you know, perfect metrics coming in every half-second, or you know, in some sub-partition of that, in milliseconds, you're likely to miss something. And so, events are really key to understand those things that pop up and then maybe come back down and in a pure metric setting, in your regular interval, you would have just completely missed. So, we see most of our use cases that are showing a balance of the two is kind of the most effective. And from a product perspective, that's how we think about solving the problem, addressing both.Corey: One of the things that I struggled with is it seems that—again, my approach to this is relatively outmoded. I was a systems administrator back when that title was not considered disparaging by a good portion of the technical community the way that it is today. Even though the job is the same, we call them something different now. Great. Okay, whatever smile, nod, and accept the larger paycheck.But my way of thinking about things are okay, you have the logs, they live on the server itself. And maybe if you want to be fancy, you wind up putting them to a centralized rsyslog cluster or whatnot. Yes, you might send them as well to some other processing system for visibility or a third-party monitoring system, but the canonical truth slash source of logs tends to live locally. That said, I got out of running production infrastructure before this idea of ephemeral containers or serverless functions really became a thing. Do you find that these days you are the source of truth slash custodian of record for these log entries, or do you find that you are more of a secondary source for better visibility and analysis, but not what they're going to bust out when the auditor comes calling in three years?Brian: I think, again, it—[laugh] I feel like I'm answering the same way [crosstalk 00:15:53]Corey: Yeah, oh, and of course, let's be clear, use cases are going to vary wildly. This is not advice on anyone's approach to compliance and the rest [laugh]. I don't want to get myself in trouble here.Brian: Exactly. Well, you know, we kind of think about it in terms of profiles. And we see a couple of different profiles of customers using InfluxDB. So, the first is, and this was kind of what we saw most often early on, still see quite a bit of them is kind of more of that operator profile. And these are folks who are going to—they're building some sort of monitor, kind of, source of truth for—that's internally facing to monitor applications or services, perhaps that other teams within their company built.And so that's, kind of like, a little bit more of your kind of pure operator. Yes, they're building up in the stack themselves, but it's to pay attention to essentially something that another team built. And then what we've seen more recently, especially as we've moved more prominently into the cloud and offered a usage-based service with a, you know, APIs and endpoint people can hit, as we see more people come into it from a builder's perspective. And similar in some ways, except that they're still building kind of a, you know, a source of truth for handling this kind of data. But they're also building the applications and services themselves are taken out to market that are in the hands of customers.And so, it's a little bit different mindset. Typically, there's, you know, a little bit more comfort with using one of many services to kind of, you know, be part of the thing that they're building. And so, we've seen a little bit more comfort from that type of profile, using our service running in the cloud, using the API, and not worrying too much about the kind of, you know, underlying setup of the implementation.Corey: Love how serverless helps you scale big and ship fast, but hate debugging your serverless apps? With Lumigo's serverless observability, it's fast and easy (and maybe a little fun, too). End-to-end distributed tracing gives developers full clarity into their most complex serverless and containerized applications, connecting every service from AWS Lambda and Amazon ECS to DynamoDB, API Gateways, Step Functions and more. Try Lumigo free and debug 3x faster, reduce error rate and speed up development. Visit snark.cloud/lumigo That's snark.cloud/L-U-M-I-G-OCorey: So, I've been on record a lot saying that the best database is TXT records stuffed into Route 53, which works super well as a gag, let's be clear, don't actually build something on top of this, that's a disaster waiting to happen. I don't want to destroy anyone's career as I do this. But you do have a much more viable competitive threat on the landscape. And that is quite simply using the open-source version of InfluxDB. What is the tipping point where, “Huh, I can run this myself,” turns into, “But I shouldn't. I should instead give money to other people to run it for me.”Because having been an engineer, where I believe I'm the world's greatest everything, when it comes to my environment—a fact provably untrue, but that hubris never quite goes away entirely—at what point am I basically being negligent not to start dealing with you in a more formalized business context?Brian: First of all, let me say that we have many customers, many developers out there who are running open-source and it works perfectly for them. The workload is just right, the deployment makes sense. And so, there are many production workloads we're using open-source. But typically, the kind of big turning point for people is on scale, scale, and overall performance related to that. And so, that's typically when they come and look at one of the two commercial offers.So, to start, open-source is a great place to, you know, kind of begin the journey, check it out, do that level of experimentation and kind of proof of concept. We also have 60,000-plus developers using our introductory cloud service, which is a free service. You simply sign up and can begin immediately putting data into the platform and building queries, and you don't have to worry about any of the setup and running servers to deploy software. So, both of those, the open-source and our cloud product are excellent ways to get started. And then when it comes time to really think about building in production and moving up in scale, we have our two commercial offers.And the first of those is InfluxDB Cloud, which is our cloud-native fully managed by InfluxData offering. We run this not only in AWS but also in Google Cloud and Microsoft Azure. It's a usage-based service, which means you pay exactly for what you use, and the three components that people pay for our data in, number of queries, and the amount of data you store in storage. We also for those who are interested in actually managing it themselves, we have InfluxDB Enterprise, which is a software subscription-base model, and it is self-managed by the customer in their environment. Now, that environment could be their own private cloud, it also could be on-premises in their own data center.And so, lots of fun people who are a little bit more oriented to kind of manage software themselves rather than using a service gear toward that. But both those commercial offers InfluxDB Cloud and InfluxDB Enterprise are really designed for, you know, massive scale. In the case of Cloud, I mentioned earlier with the new storage engine, you can hit unlimited cardinality, which means you have no limit on the number of time series you can put into the platform, which is a pretty big game-changing concept. And so, that means however many time-series sources you have and however many series they're emitting, you can run that without a problem without any sort of upper limit in our cloud product. Over on the enterprise side with our self-managed product, that means you can deploy a cluster of whatever size you want. It could be a two-by-four, it could be a four-by-eight, or something even larger. And so, it gives people that are managing in their own private cloud or in a data center environment, really their own options to kind of construct exactly what they need for their particular use case.Corey: Does your object storage layer make it easier to dynamically change clusters on the fly? I mean, historically, running things in a pre-provisioned cluster with EBS volumes or local disk was, “Oh, great. You want to resize something? Well, we're going to be either taking an outage or we're going to be building up something, migrating data live, and there's going to be a knife-switch cutover at some point that makes things relatively unfortunate.” It seems that once you abstract the storage layer away from anything resembling an instance that you would be able to get away from some of those architectural constraints.Brian: Yeah, that's really the promise, and what is delivered in our cloud product is that you no longer, as a developer, have to think about that if you're using that product. You don't have to think about how big the cluster is going to be, you don't have to think about these kind of disaster scenarios. It is all kind of pre-architected in the service. And so, the things that we really want to deliver to people, in addition to the elimination of that concern for what the underlying infrastructure looks like and how its operating. And so, with infrastructure concerns kind of out of the way, what we want to deliver on are kind of the things that people care most about: real-time query speed.So, now with this new storage engine, you can query data across any time series within milliseconds, 100 times faster queries against high cardinality data that was previously impossible. And we also have unlimited time-series volume. Again, any total number of time series you have, which is known as cardinality, is now able to run without a problem in the platform. And then we also have kind of opening up, we're opening up the aperture a bit for developers with SQL language support. And so, this is just a whole new world of flexibility for developers to begin building on the platform. And again, this is all in the way that people are using the product without having to worry about the underlying infrastructure.Corey: For most companies—and this does not apply to you—their core competency is not running time-series databases and the infrastructure attendant thereof, so it seems like it is absolutely a great candidate for, “You know, we really could make this someone else's problem and let us instead focus on the differentiated thing that we are doing or building or complaining about.”Brian: Yeah, that's a true statement. Typically what happens with time-series data is that people first of all, don't realize they have it, and then when they realize they have time-series data, you know, the first thing they'll do is look around and say, “Well, what do I have here?” You know, I have this relational database over here or this document database over here, maybe even this, kind of, search database over here, maybe that thing can handle time series. And in a light manner, it probably does the job. But like I said, the sources of data and just the volume of time series is expanding, really across all these different use cases, exponentially.And so, pretty quickly, people realize that thing that may be able to handle time series in some minor manner, is quickly no longer able to do it. They're just not purpose-built for it. And so, that's where really they come to a product like Influx to really handle this specific problem. We're built specifically for this purpose and so as the time-series workload expands when it kind of hits that tipping point, you really need a specialized tool.Corey: Last question, before I turn you loose to prepare for re:Invent, of course—well, I guess we'll ask you a little bit about that afterwards, but first, we can talk a lot theoretically about what your product could or might theoretically do. What are you actually seeing? What are the use cases that other than the stereotypical ones we've talked about, what have you seen people using it for that surprised you?Brian: Yeah, some of it is—it's just really interesting how it connects to, you know, things you see every day and/or use every day. I mean, chances are, many people listening have probably use InfluxDB and, you know, perhaps didn't know it. You know, if anyone has been to a home that has Tesla Powerwalls—Tesla is a customer of ours—then they've seen InfluxDB in action. Tesla's pulling time-series data from these connected Powerwalls that are in solar-powered homes, and they monitor things like health and availability and performance of those solar panels and the battery setup, et cetera. And they're collecting this at the edge and then sending that back into the hub where InfluxDB is running on their back end.So, if you've ever seen this deployed like that's InfluxDB running behind the scenes. Same goes, I'm sure many people have a Nest thermostat in their house. Nest monitors the infrastructure, actually the powers that collection of IoT data collection. So, you think of this as InfluxDB running behind the scenes to monitor what infrastructure is standing up that back-end Nest service. And this includes their use of Kubernetes and other software infrastructure that's run in their platform for collection, managing, transforming, and analyzing all of this aggregate device data that's out there.Another one, especially for those of us that streamed our minds out during the pandemic, Disney+ entertainment, streaming, and delivery of that to applications and to devices in the home. And so, you know, this hugely popular Disney+ streaming service is essentially a global content delivery network for distributing all these, you know, movies and video series to all the users worldwide. And they monitor the movement and performance of that video content through this global CDN using InfluxDB. So, those are a few where you probably walk by something like this multiple times a week, or in our case of Disney+ probably watching it once a day. And it's great to see InfluxDB kind of working behind the scenes there.Corey: It's one of those things where it's, I guess we'll call it plumbing, for lack of a better term. It's not the sort of thing that people are going to put front-and-center into any product or service that they wind up providing, you know, except for you folks. Instead, it's the thing that empowers a capability behind that product or service that is often taken for granted, just because until you understand the dizzying complexity, particularly at scale, of what these things have to do under the hood, it just—well yeah, of course, it works that way. Why shouldn't it? That's an expectation I have of the product because it's always had that. Yeah, but this is how it gets there.Brian: Our thesis really is that data is best understood through the lens of time. And as this data is expanding exponentially, time becomes increasingly the, kind of, common element, the common component that you're using to kind of view what happened. That could be what's running through a telecom network, what's happening with the devices that are connected that network, the movement of data through that network, and when, what's happening with subscribers and content pushing through a CDN on a streaming service, what's happening with climate and home data in hundreds of thousands, if not millions of homes through common device like a Nest thermostat. All of these things they attach to some real-world collection of data, and as long as that's happening, there's going to be a place for time-series data and tools that are optimized to handle it.Corey: So, my last question—for real this time—we are recording this the week before re:Invent 2022. What do you hope to see, what do you expect to see, what do you fear to see?Brian: No fears. Even though it's Vegas, no fears.Corey: I do have the super-spreader event fear, but that's a separate—Brian: [laugh].Corey: That's a separate issue. Neither one of us are deep into the epidemiology weeds, to my understanding. But yeah, let's just bound this to tech, let's be clear.Brian: Yeah, so first of all, we're really excited to go there. We'll have a pretty big presence. We have a few different locations where you can meet us. We'll have a booth on the main show floor, we'll be in the marketplace pavilion, as I mentioned, InfluxDB Cloud is offered across the marketplaces of each of the clouds, AWS, obviously in this case, but also in Azure and Google. But we'll be there in the AWS Marketplace pavilion, showcasing the new engine and a lot of the pretty exciting new use cases that we've been seeing.And we'll have our full team there, so if you're looking to kind of learn more about InfluxDB, or you've checked it out recently and want to understand kind of what the new capability is, we'll have many folks from our technical teams there, from our development team, some our field folks like the SEs and some of the product managers will be there as well. So, we'll have a pretty great collection of experts on InfluxDB to answer any questions and walk people through, you know, demonstrations and use cases.Corey: I look forward to it. I will be doing my traditional Wednesday afternoon tour through the expo halls and nature walk, so if you're listening to this and it's before Wednesday afternoon, come and find me. I am kicking off and ending at the [unintelligible 00:29:15] booth, but I will make it a point to come by the Influx booth and give you folks a hard time because that's what I do.Brian: We love it. Please. You know, being on the tour is—on the walking tour is excellent. We'll be mentally prepared. We'll have some comebacks ready for you.Corey: Therapists are standing by on both sides.Brian: Yes, exactly. Anyway, we're really looking forward to it. This will be my third year on your walking tour. So, the nature walk is one of my favorite parts of AWS re:Invent.Corey: Well, I appreciate that. Thank you. And thank you for your time today. I will let you get back to your no doubt frenzied preparations. At least they are on my side.Brian: We will. Thanks so much for having me and really excited to do it.Corey: Brian Mullen, CMO at InfluxData, I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, along with an insulting comment that you naively believe will be stored as a TXT record in a DNS server somewhere rather than what is almost certainly a time-series database.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

This week on the blog, a podcast interview with Dawn Brodey and Brian Forrest, talking about the various film versions of “Frankenstein” and “Dracula.”Dawn gave me 4.5 films to revisit: The 1931 version of Frankenstein, Frankenweenie (the feature and the short), Mary Shelley's Frankenstein, and Young Frankenstein.Meanwhile, Brian assigned me the original Nosferatu, the 1931 Dracula, Abbott & Costello Meet Frankenstein, Horror of Dracula, Dracula in Istanbul and Bram Stoker's Dracula. LINKSDawn's podcast (HILF): http://dawnbrodey.com/ - showsBrian's Blog and Vlog, Toothpickings: https://toothpickings.medium.com/ A Free Film Book for You: https://dl.bookfunnel.com/cq23xyyt12Another Free Film Book: https://dl.bookfunnel.com/x3jn3emga6Frankenstein (1931) Trailer: https://youtu.be/BN8K-4osNb0Frankenweenie Trailer: https://youtu.be/29vIJQohUWEMary Shelley's Frankenstein (Trailer): https://youtu.be/GFaY7r73BIsYoung Frankenstein (Trailer): https://youtu.be/mOPTriLG5cUNosferatu (Complete Film): https://youtu.be/dCT1YUtNOA8Dracula (1931) Trailer: https://youtu.be/VoaMw91MC9kAbbott & Costello Meet Frankenstein (Trailer): https://youtu.be/j6l8auIACycHorror of Dracula (Trailer): https://youtu.be/ZTbY0BgIRMkBram Stoker's Dracula (Trailer): https://youtu.be/fgFPIh5mvNcDracula In Istanbul: https://youtu.be/G7tAWcm3EX0Fast, Cheap Film Website: https://www.fastcheapfilm.com/Eli Marks Website: https://www.elimarksmysteries.com/Albert's Bridge Books Website: https://www.albertsbridgebooks.com/YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/BehindthePageTheEliMarksPodcastDawn and Brian TRANSCRIPT John: [00:00:00] Before we dive into the assignment you gave me—which was to watch stuff I hadn't seen and also rewatch stuff I had seen to get a better idea of who's done a good job of adapting these books—let's just jump in and talk a little bit about your area of expertise and why you have it. So, I'm going to start with you, Brian. I was very surprised after working with you a while to find out that you had a whole vampire subset in your life. Brian: A problem, you can call it a problem. It's fine. John: Okay. What is the problem and where did it come from? Brian: I was just vaguely interested in vampires for a while. When I was in my screenwriting days, someone had encouraged me to do a feature length comedy about vampires, and that led me to do a lot of reading. And then I just kind of put it aside for a while. And then I was, I had just finished a documentary for Committee Films and they said, do you have any other pitches? And I thought, and I said, you know, there's still people who believe in vampires even today, that could be really interesting. And I put together a pitch package. Then, the guy in charge of development said, [00:01:00]this is what we need to be doing. And then it stalled out. Nothing ever happened with it. And I said, what the hell. I could do this on my own. I could fly around and interview these people. And I did, I spent a couple years interviewing academics and some writers. And along the way, I started finding all these very intriguing moments in the history of either vampire lore or fiction or even just people who consider themselves vampires today. And all these things would connect to each other. It was a lattice work of vampires going back hundreds of years. It didn't fit the documentary, unfortunately, but I found it way too interesting. And I said, I need some kind of outlet for this. And so I started writing about it on Tooth Pickings. And that eventually put me in touch with people who were more scholarly, and it opened up a lot more conversations. And now I can't get out. I'm trapped. John: Well, the first sign is recognizing there's a problem. [00:02:00] Okay. Now, Dawn, you had a different entryway into Frankenstein. Dawn: Yeah, well, I was a theater major and a history minor at the University of Minnesota. Go Gophers. And, this was in the late nineties, early two thousands, when there were still a lot of jobs for people who had degrees and things like this. Or at least there was a theory that this was a reasonable thing to get educated in. And then I graduated in 2001, which was months after 9/11, when all those jobs went away. And so, I had this education so specific and what was I gonna do? And gratefully the Twin Cities is a great place for finding that kind of stuff. And one of my very first jobs out of college was at the Bakkan museum. So, the Bakkan museum was founded by Earl Bakkan, who is the inventor of the battery-operated pacemaker. And he has always, since childhood, been obsessed with the Frankenstein movie that came out in 1931. And he attributes [00:03:00]his great scientific invention and many others to a science fiction in general. And to the spark of the idea that comes from sources like this. So, when he opened the museum, he insisted that there'd be a grand Frankenstein exhibit. And that means going back to the book, and that meant going back to the author, Mary Shelley, who wrote the novel Frankenstein, she started writing it when she was 16.And so, I was hired because—boom, look at me—my degree is suddenly colliding, right? So, I was hired by the Bakkan museum to create a one-woman show about the life of Mary Shelley, where I would play Mary Shelley and would perform it within the museum and elsewhere. And through the course of that research, I read the novel for the second time, but then I read it for my third, fourth, fifth onwards and upwards. Because the show was about 45 minutes long, I referenced, you know, the novel, the books, the popular culture, the science behind it. And the deep dive just never stopped. And so long after I was required to do the research and the show was done and up, I just kept reading. [00:04:00] And it gave me the opportunity to meet experts in this field and the peripheral field, as I would sort of travel with this show and be an ambassador for the museum and stuff like that. And, yeah, it still curls my toes. John: All right, so with that background. I'm going to just be honest right here and say, I've read Dracula once, I've read Frankenstein once. So that's where I'm coming from, and both a while ago. I remember Frankenstein was a little tougher to get through. Dracula had a bit more of an adventure feel to it, but something I don't think has really been captured particularly well in all the movies. But they both have lasted and lasted and lasted.Why do you think those books are still, those ideas are still as popular today? Dawn: I will say that I think Frankenstein, it depends on what you mean by the idea. Because on the surface, just the idea of bringing the dead to life, is, I mean, the Walking Dead franchise is right now one of the most popular franchises. I mean, I think we are really pivot on this idea. And I remember saying to a friend once that the part in [00:05:00]Revelation where the dead rise is like the only part of the Bible that I don't question. It's like, oh, the dead will get up. You know, we always just seem to be real sure that at some damned point, they're getting up. And so I think that that is part of why that it sticks in our brains. But then the story around Frankenstein—especially as it was written in 1818—has so many universal and timeless themes, like ambition and what is right and wrong. And the question that Jurassic Park posed in 1995 and continues to—1993 around there—and continues to pose, which is: just because science is capable of doing something, should it do something? And how do we define progress? Surely the very idea of being able to beat death and not die seems to be kind of the ultimate goal. And here is someone saying, okay, so let's just say, yeah. We beat death and everyone goes, oh shit, that'd be terrible. [00:06:00] You know? And then also, I always love the idea of the creature, the monster, Frankenstein's creature himself, who has a lot of characteristics with which people have identified throughout history. Some people say, for example, that Mary Shelley's whole purpose for writing Frankenstein was a question of: didn't God do this to us, make us these ugly creatures that are imperfect and bumbling around and horrifying? And then once he realized that we weren't perfect, he fled from us in fear or fled. He just keeps going and every generation has a new media that tells the story a little bit better, a little bit different, and yeah, there we are. John: I will say that for me, the most memorable part of the book was the section where the monster is the narrator and is learning. And I think with the exception of Kenneth Branagh's film, it it's something that isn't really touched on that much. There's a little bit in Bride of Frankenstein, of him going around and learning stuff. But the sort of moral questions that he [00:07:00] raises as he's learning—what it is to be human—are very interesting in the book. And I wish they were in more of the movies, but they're not. So, Brian on Dracula, again, we have dead coming to life. Why do we love that so much? Brian: Well, it's one of the questions that made me want to make a film about it myself: why has the vampire been so fascinating for hundreds of years? Why does it keep coming back? You know, it ebbs and flows in popularity, but it never leaves. And it keeps seeming to have Renaissance after Renaissance. Dracula specifically, I think one of the interesting things about that novel is how many different lenses you can look at it through and not be wrong.People have looked at it through the lens of, is this thing an imperialist story? Is it an anti-imperialist story? Is it a feminist story? Is it an anti-feminist story? And you can find support for any of those views reading Dracula. And I think that some of it might be accidental; there's times where Dracula is catching up to whatever the cultural zeitgeist [00:08:00] is right now. And we look at Dracula and we say, oh, he was thinking about this back then. Or maybe Bram Stoker was just very confused and he had a lot of different ideas. John: All right, let's explore that a little deeper. You each gave me an assignment of some movies to watch or to re-watch that you felt were worth talking about, in relation to your subject of Frankenstein or Dracula. I'm going to start with Frankenweenie, just because I had not seen it. And in going through it, I was reminded—of course, as one would be—of watching Frankenweenie, I was reminded of Love, Actually. Because I came to the realization after years of Love, Actually being around that it—Love, Actually—is not a romantic comedy. It is all romantic comedies, all put into one movie. And Frankenweenie is all horror films. Condensed, beautifully and cleverly into one very tasty souffle. [Frankenweenie Soundbite] John: I stopped at a certain point making note of the references to other horror films. Just because there are so many of them. But the idea that it references everything from Bride of Frankenstein to Gremlins. They do a rat transformation that's right out of American Werewolf in London. The fact that they have a science teacher played by Martin Landau doing the voice he did as Bela [00:10:00] Lugosi in Ed Wood. I mean, it's a really good story that they just layered and layered and layered and layered. What was it about that movie that so captivated you? Dawn: Well, so much of what you just said. And also it seems to me the epitome of the accessibility of the story of Frankenstein. The idea that if anyone can think of any moment in which if I could bring someone back to life. But what I love about it too, is that the novel Frankenstein that is not Victor Frankenstein's motivation. It generally tends to be the motivation of almost every character, including the Kenneth Branagh character--at some point, he, when Elizabeth dies, his wife dies for the second time, he says, yes, I'm going to try to bring her back. But it is so not the motivation of the scientist in the book. It is just ambition. He just wants to do something no one else has done. And lots of people die around him and he really never, ever says to himself at any point in the novel, I wish I could bring them back, I'm going to bring them back. That's never, that's never part of it. He just wants to be impressive. And so, I love [00:11:00] that it starts with that pure motivation of wanting to bring the dead to life; just wanting to bring your dog back, so that it's so accessible for everyone watching it. Who wouldn't wanna try this? But then, even in that scene with the teacher, when he shows the frog. And he's demonstrating that if you touch a dead frog with electricity, its legs shoot up, which give the kid the first idea of bringing his dog back. Which is like a deep cut in, in the sense that that's nothing -- Mary Shelley herself and her friends were watching experiments exactly like that before she wrote the book: galvanism and animal magnetism were these really popular public demonstrations happening in London and elsewhere where they would do just that. But because electricity itself was so new, I mean, it blew people's hair back you know, that these dead frogs were flopping around. It was the craziest thing. And a lot of them were thinking to themselves, surely it is only a matter of time before we can, we're gonna have our dead walking around all the time. So, it was so circulating and so forward. [00:12:00] So it's not just movie references and it's not just Frankenstein references. That movie really includes source deep source references for how Frankenstein came to be. And I just love it. John: Which brings me to Frankenstein, the 1931 version, in which Colin Clive has a similar point of view to what you were talking about from the book. He just wants, you know, he wants to be God. [Frankenstein soundbite] John: What I was most impressed with about that movie or a couple things was: it starts, it's like, boom. We're in it. First scene. There there's no preamble. There's no going to college. There's no talking about it, right? It's like, they're starting in the middle of act two. And I think a lot of what we think of when it comes to Frankenstein comes from that movie, [00:13:00] that the stuff that James Whale and his cinematographer came up with and the way they made things look, and that's sort of what people think of when they think of Frankenstein. Now, as you look back on that movie, what are your thoughts on the, what we'll call the original Frankenstein? Dawn: Yeah. Well, I love it. You'll find with me and Frankenstein that I'm not a purist. Like I love everything. Like I have no boundaries. I think this is great. One of the things that 1931 movie did was answer—because it had to, anytime you take a novel and make it a movie, you take a literary medium and make it a visual medium, there's obviously going to be things that you just have to interpret that the author left for you to make for yourself individual. And in this instance, that individual is the cinematographer. So, we're gonna get their take on this. And one of the real ambiguous things that Mary Shelley leaves for you in the novel is the spark of life. What is the spark of life? She does not in any [00:14:00]detail describe lightning or static or any of the recognizable or, or future developments of how electricity would've been. Brian: I was shocked when I first read that book and saw how little space was devoted to that, that lab scene. It's blink of an eye and it's over. Dawn: “I gathered the instruments of life around me that I may infuse a spark of being into the lifeless thing that lay at my.” Period. I just, what I love is what I love about film in general is that they went, oh, spark being all right, girl, it's a dark and stormy night and you know, and there's chains and there's bubblers and there's a thing. And the sky opens. I mean, God bless you, like way to just take that thought. Make it vivid, make it, build a set, make us believe it. And it's so, so pervasive that in Frankenweinie, you know, which of course is about Frankensein. [00:15:00] Like that is one that they do: he's got the white robe that ties in the back and the gloves. And in Young Frankenstein, it's the, you know, that lab scene. And so I love that. And the other thing that they had to do was describe the look of the creature, make the creature—Frankenstein's monster himself—look so like something. Because she, similarly in the novel, says that he is taller than a regular man, has dark hair and yellow watery eyes. That's all we know about what the Frankenstein looks like. And so, in 1931, Boris Karloff with the bolts. And it's black and white, remember, we don't think his skin is green. That he turned green at some point is kind of exciting, but of course he was just gray, but just dead flesh, you know, rotten, dead walking flesh is what's frightening. And, I just thought that the movie did that so well, John: I think the makeup was kind of a green/gray, and that when color photos came out of it, that's why someone went, oh, [00:16:00] it's green, but it wasn't green. Brian: I thought I saw a museum piece of, you know, an actual makeup bit that Jack Pierce did and I thought it was greenish. Dawn: Yeah. Greenish/gray. I think, yeah, the rots, just kind of trying to capture the sort of rotten flesh. Brian: It's just like the bride's hair was red. Dawn: That's right. That's right. My day job here in Los Angeles is as a street improviser at Universal Studios, Hollywood. And two of their most treasured characters of course are Frankenstein and Dracula. So, while most people might separate them, John, they are usually arm and arm where I work every day. And the bride has recently come back to the theme park as a walking character, and they gave her red hair. We don't mess around. John: That's excellent. But you mentioned Dracula, let's jump into the 1931 Dracula. There's a connection point between the two that I want to mention, which is the amazing Dwight Frye, who is Fritz, I believe in Frankenstein. And I'm not the first one to mention his naturalistic [00:17:00] acting kind of putting him above everybody else in that movie. Famously, when he's running up the stairs, stopping to pull his socks up at one point. He's just really, really good in that. And then you see him in Dracula as the, essentially the Harker character. I think he was called Harker -- Brian: Yeah. Well, he's Renfield in Dracula. They merged those two characters. I thought it was a smart move for a first attempt at the film. Yeah. And Dwight Frye, he's in a lot of other Universal horrors, too. Dwight Frye often doesn't get the credit. He somehow was not the leading man he should have been. John: I don't know why that is. He turns up again as an assistant in Bride of Frankenstein. He's a towns person in Frankenstein meets the Wolfman. And then he tragically died on a bus ride to an auto parts job that he took because he wasn't getting any acting work, which was too bad. A really, really good actor. Brian: There is another intersection besides the fact that they were both produced by Junior. Lugosi was put into the [00:18:00] short, the trial film they shot for Frankenstein. I can't call it a short film, because it was never intended for release. But they shot a cinematic test reel and they had Lugosi play the monster, but he was under a sheet the whole time. I think he may have been able to pull the sheet off. It's a lost film. We don't know for sure. We just have kind of the recollections of a few crew people. John: I've never heard of that. I would love to see that. Brian: I would too. I think a lot of people would really love to see it, but it was as much a kind of a testing ground for Lugosi— whether they wanted him to be the monster—as it was for some of the techniques, the things they wanted to try in the film. And what I understand is the producer saw the test reel and they said, yes, we love this look, this is the look we want you to give us. And then it's whatever version of Lugosi not getting that part you want to believe: whether Lugosi turned it down or the producers didn't like him or something. But he ended up not taking that part. John: But he is of course always known as Dracula. So, what are your thoughts on their adaptation? Which [00:19:00]again is not the first adaptation but is the kind of first official? Brian: Yeah. The first to bear the name Dracula, although, well, I'll back up a second. Because some releases of Nosferatu called it Dracula. He would be named as Dracula in the subtitles, you know, because that's an easy thing to do in silent film, you can just swap that out however you want to. But yes, it's the first authorized official film adaptation. John: Well, let's back up to Nosferatu, just for a second. Am I wrong in remembering that the Bram Stoker estate—Mrs. Stoker—sued Nosferatu and asked that all prints be destroyed? And they were except one print remained somewhere? Brian: Close. That is the popular story that she sued Prana Films. She won the lawsuit. All films were set to be destroyed. Now there's a guy named Locke Heiss and a few others who've been doing some research on this. And they will tell you that there's no proof that a single print was ever destroyed. It's a more fun story to say that, you know, this one was snuck away and now we have the film. But there was no real enforcement mechanism for having all the theaters [00:20:00]destroy the film. Who was going to go around and check and see if they actually destroyed this film or not? Nobody, right? So maybe some people destroyed it. Maybe Prana Films destroyed their remaining copies. But the exhibitors kept all of theirs and there's different versions and different cuts that have been found. So, we know that some of these reels went out in different formats or with different subtitles or even different edits. And some of them have made their way back to us. John: There's some really iconic striking imagery in that movie. That haunts me still. Brian: What I always tell people is see the film with a good live accompaniment, because that still makes it hold up as a scary film. If you see a good orchestra playing something really intense when Orlok comes through that door. It feels scary. You can feel yourself being teleported back to 1922 and being one of those audience people seeing that and being struck by it. John: What do you think it would be like to have [00:21:00] seen that or Dawn to have seen the original Frankenstein? I can't really imagine, given all that we've seen in our lives. If you put yourself back into 1931, and Boris Karloff walks backwards into the lab. I would just love to know what that felt like the first time. Dawn: You know, what is so great is I was fortunate enough to know Earl Bakkan who saw the movie in the theater in Columbia Heights, Minnesota when he was 10 years old.And he went, he had to sneak in. People would run outta this, out of the theater, screaming. I mean, when they would do the close up of Frankenstein's Monster's face, you know, women would faint. And of course that was publicized and much circulated, but it was also true. People were freaking out. And for Earl Bakkan—this young kid—the fear was overwhelming, as you said. And also in this theater, I was lucky enough, I did my show in that theater for Earl and his friends on his 81st birthday. So, I got to hear a [00:22:00] lot of these stories. And they played the organ in the front of the curtain. Brian: Is this the Heights theater? Dawn: Yes, the Heights. Brian: Oh, that's an amazing space. Dawn: So, they played the organ in there and it was like, oh my God. And it was so overwhelming. So, I'm glad you asked that question because I was really fortunate to have a moment to be able to sort of immerse myself in that question: What would it have been like to be in this theater? And it was moving and it was scary, man. And yeah, to your point, Brian, the music and the score. I mean, it was overwhelming. Also, I think there's something that we still benefit from today, which is when people tell you going in this might be way too much for you, this might scare you to death. So just be super, super careful. And your heart's already, you know… John: And it does have that warning right at the beginning. Dawn: Yeah. Versus now when people sit you down, they're like, I'm not gonna be scared by this black and white movie from 1931. And then you find yourself shuffling out of the bathroom at top speed in the middle of the night. And you're like, well, look at that. It got me. Brian: That reminds me, there [00:23:00] was a deleted scene from the 1931 Dracula that was a holdover from the stage play. Van Helsing comes out and he breaks the fourth wall and he speaks directly to the audience. And he says something to the effect of—I'm very much paraphrasing—about how we hope you haven't been too frightened by what you've seen tonight, but just remember these things are real. And then black out. And they cut that because they were afraid that they were really going to freak out their audience. Dawn: It's like a war of the world's thing, man. It's oh, that's so great. I love that. [Dracula Soundbite] John: So, Brian, what is your assessment of the 1931 version? As a movie itself and as an adaptation of Stoker's work? Brian: The things they had to do to try to adapt it to film, which they borrowed a lot of that from the stage play. They used the stage play as their guide point, and I think they made the best choices they could have been expected to make. You know, there's a lot of things that get lost and that's unfortunate, but I think they did a decent job. I don't find the 1931 version scary. I like Bela Lugosi. I think he's a great Dracula. I think he set the standard. With the possible [00:25:00]exception of the scene where the brides are stalking Harker slash Renfield, I don't think the imagery is particularly frightening. The Spanish version, I think does a little bit better job. And you know the story with the Spanish version and the English version? Dawn: We actually talk about it on the back lot tour of Universal Studios. Because they shot on the same sets in some cases. Brian: Yeah. My understanding is that Dracula shot during the day, Spanish Dracula would shoot at night. So, they got to benefit maybe a little bit by seeing, okay, how is this gonna be shot? How did Todd Browning do it? Okay. We're gonna do it a little bit differently. It's a little bit of a cheat to say they move the camera. They do move the camera a lot more in the Spanish version, but the performances are a little bit different. I'm going to, I can't get her name out. The actress who plays the ingenue in the Spanish Dracula, I'm not going to try it, but you can see her kind of getting more and more crazed as time goes on and her head is more infected by Dracula. You see these push-ins that you don't see in the English version. There's blocking [00:26:00] that's different. I put together a short course where I was just talking about how they blocked the staircases scene. The welcome to my house, the walking through spider web. And how it's blocked very differently in the two versions. And what does that say? What are these two directors communicating differently to us? In one, Harker slash Renfield is next to Dracula. In one, he's trailing behind him. In one, we cut away from the spider web before he goes through. And in the other one, we see him wrestle with it. That's not really what you asked, John. Sorry, I got off on a tear there. John: I agree with you on all points on the differences between the two films. Although I do think that all the Transylvania stuff in the English version is terrific: With the coach and the brides. The Spanish version, the biggest problem I have is that their Dracula looks ridiculous. Brian: He's not Bela Lugosi. You're right. John: He looks like Steve Carell doing Dracula and there is no moment, literally no moment [00:27:00] where he is scary, whereas Lugosi is able to pull that off. Brian: There's a lot of people who have observed that the Spanish Dracula would be a superior film were it not for Bela Lugosi being such an amazing Dracula in the English version. John: He really, really nailed it. Brian: And since he learned his lines phonetically, he could have done the Spanish Dracula. Just write it out for him phonetically, because he didn't speak English very well. John: If we could just go back, you know, cause a lot of things in history we could change, but if we could just be at that meeting and go, Hey, why not have Bela do it? Okay. So then let's jump ahead, still in Dracula form, to Horror of Dracula. From 1958. With Christopher Lee as Dracula and Peter Cushing as Van Helsing. [Soundbite from Horror of Dracula] Brian: For some people, Lee is the ultimate Dracula, and I think that's a generational thing. I think he's great. He's got the stage presence and I love Peter Cushing as Van Helsing. I don't like the film as a whole. It feels like I'm watching a play with a camera set back. It doesn't work for me the way it works for other people. That is personal taste. Don't come after me. John: It does, however, have one of the greatest, ‘Hey, we're gonna kill Dracula' scenes ever, with Peter Cushing running down the table and jumping up and pulling down the drapes and the sun. Brian: Oh, right. Interesting. Because in Dracula, the book, the sun is not deadly, remotely really. But that's [00:29:00]the influence of Nosferatu being pasted onto the Dracula cannon, that the sunlight is deadly to Dracula. Dawn: I remember having this fight very enthusiastically in the nineties when Bram Stoker's/Winona Ryder's Dracula came out and I was already sort of a literary nerd. And they were like, hey, they have a scene with him walking around during the day. And I was like, yeah, nerds. That's right. That's cuz vampires can walk around during the day.I was very already, like, you don't know anything, go back to history. Brian: And there's a seventies version where he's out on a cloudy day, but he is not hurt either. There suggestions in the book that he's more powerful at night. Dawn: He's a creature of the night. I always understood he had to wear sunglasses. He was sort of like a wolf. Like they show him as a wolf during the day; it can happen, but it's not great. Brian: I like the way they did it in the Gary Oldman version. He's suited up. He's got the sunglasses on. There's not a whole lot of skin exposed. But he's not [00:30:00] going to turn into smoke. John: Well, okay. Let's talk about that version and Kenneth Branagh's version of Frankenstein. Dawn: Ug. John: I'm not going to spoil anything here, when I say it doesn't sound like Dawn cared it. Dawn: You open this, you opened this can of worms. John, sit down for a second. Listen. He calls it: Mary Shelly's fucking Frankenstein. I inserted the fucking. I'm sorry, I wasn't supposed to say that. He calls it. He calls it. How dare you, Kenneth, Brannagh, call this Mary Shelley's Frankenstein. So that was A-number one. But I went into it all excited: It's Kenneth Brannagh. Love him. He calls it Mary Shelley's Frankenstein and he starts with the ship captain out at sea, just like the book. And so I pull up my little, you know, security blanket and I'm like, oh, Kenneth Brannagh, do this to me, buddy. Do it to me buddy. Show me Mary Shelley Frankenstein as a movie. [00:31:00] And then he just fucks it up, John. And he doesn't actually do that at all. It's a total lie. He screws up every monologue. He makes up motivations and then heightens them. And it's dad. The acting is capital B, capital A, capital D across the board. Everybody sucks in this movie. It looks bad. The direction is bad, and it has nothing to do. He tries to bring Elizabeth back to life. This is a huge departure from Mary Shelley's Frankenstein. Thank you very much, Mr. Brannagh, that's all I have to say for now. John: All right, I was fooled by the fact that he started at, at the north pole. Dawn: That's because he's tricking us, John. That's because it's the whole movie is a lie. John: Okay with that same mindset, what do we think of Bram Stoker's Dracula by Francis Ford Coppola? Dawn: I love that one. Brian: I'm afraid that I don't have, I can't match Dawn's intensity in either respect. Um, except I thought Robert DeNiro [00:32:00] was really good in Frankenstein. Dawn: But that's no, he's not. you're wrong. Your opinion is valid and wrong. Yeah, I'm kidding for listeners who don't know me. I am, I am kidding. Of course. Everybody's opinion is valid except for that one. Yeah. The movie, everything about that movie is bad. John: He is, I think, miscast. Dawn: And Helen Bonan Carter is one of the finest actresses of not just our generation, but of all time. And she sucks in this movie. John: Right. So. Bram Stoker's Dracula. Brian: Bram Stoker's Dracula. [Soundbite: Bram Stoker's Dracula] Brian: Also produced by Branagh. And I assume that is the connection, why they both start with the author's name. I always call it Coppola's Dracula because it gets too confusing to make that distinction. I thought it was a decent movie, but it didn't feel like Dracula. It felt like someone who had heard of Dracula and wrote a good script based on what they had heard. So many divergences that bothered me, although I think it's aged better than it felt the first time. I remember seeing it when it first came out in the nineties and not thinking much of it. And I think audiences agreed with me and it seems like it's been kinder, that audiences have been kinder to it as it's gotten older. John: Okay. Dawn, you love it. Dawn: I loved it. I loved it. It, you know what though? That was one of [00:34:00] those movies that unlike, unlike Mary Shelley's Frankenstein, I can't look at with like an adult critical eye because I, what year did it come out? Was it like 90, 92? I'm like middle school getting into high school and like Winona Ryder was everything. Vampires are everything. I mean, Gary Oldman is the, is a great actor and it's so sexy, very sexy. The sex is Primo. And so I remember loving it, very moving. I don't remember comparing it as certainly not as viciously to the novel because I read Dracula after I had seen the movie. And so there's always that inherent casting where Nina is always going to be Winona Ryder. But I do remember really loving the Gothic convention of the letter and that the movie did seem to utilize and to great effect how letter writing can build suspense and give us different perspectives in a, in a unique cinematic way. Brian: [00:35:00] The two or three biggest stakes that film puts in the ground are not to be found in the book. So there's no love story in the book. There's no Vlad in the book. John: Can I interject there? Isn't that basically, didn't they just rip that off of Dark Shadows, The idea of my long lost love is reincarnated in this woman. I must connect with her. Brian: That is a good question, John. I'm glad you asked that because I call it the doppelganger love interest. Right? We first see that, the first time I know of it happening, I'm sure there's an earlier precedent, is in The Mummy, but then Dark Shadows does it. But that's not where Stoker, I mean, that's not where Coppola and a screenwriter claimed to have gotten the idea. They claimed to have gotten it from Dan Curtis's Dracula in 74. John: Dan Curtis, who produced Dark Shadows, with Barnabas Collins, falling in love with his reincarnated love. Brian: But Dan Curtis's Dracula comes out two years after Blacula. That has a reincarnated love interest. John: Not only does the Blaclua [00:36:00] have a reincarnated love interest, but if I'm remembering movie correctly at the end, when she says I don't want to go with you. He goes, okay. And he's ready to go home. It's like, sorry to bother you. Brian: No, uh, in Blacula, he commits suicide John: Oh, that's it? Yeah. He walks out into the sun. Brian: He goes home in a different way. John: Yes. He's one of my favorite Draculas, the very stately William Marshall. Brian: Yeah, absolutely. That is a favorite of mine. John: Anyway, you were saying stakes in the ground from Coppola's Dracula. Brian: Well, the, the love story, the equating Dracula with Vlad the Impaler. And I felt like they did Lucy really bad in that movie. They had her turn into a wanton harlot, which is not in keeping with the book. Some things are okay, but they really said these are the building blocks of our story and that bugged me. But Anthony Hopkins I liked, so, all right. Dawn: Alright, but see, this [00:37:00] the itch that still that still makes me wanna scratch though: why say Bram Stoker's Dracula? Why say Mary Shelley's Frankenstein? I mean, because I think you heard the venom, obviously. If they took Mary Shelley's name off that thing, you can make Frankenweenie. And I will love, like, I love Frankenweenie. Do your Frankenstein homage all day, all the time. But when you call, when you say it's Bram Stoker's, I think that this is what has been frustrating historians like me and getting high school students Ds in English class ever since. Because it just creates the false perception that you've basically read the book. Right. Or that you, if you know the thing you know the book and it's just a cheap ploy. And I don't like it. Brian: I think, somebody correct me on this, that there, there had been a plan to do a reboot of the Universal monster franchise, and these two movies were supposed to be the reboot of it. [00:38:00] And then they would've then done HG Wells' Invisible Man. John: The Mummy killed it. They've tried to reboot it several times. And that was the first attempt. Brian: Yeah, I've heard that called the dark universe. They were trying to do their own MCU. Dawn: Yeah. Well, at Universal Studios, there is of course in, in LA, in general, there's the property wars, you know? What what's, who has what? And sometimes those get really blurred. Like why does Universal Studios have Harry Potter? When we can see Warner Brothers from the top of our wall/ And that's obviously, you know, those things happen. But when it comes to like the IP or intellectual property, those original monsters are so valuable and they always are at Halloween. And then it's like, sort of, how can we capitalize on this? And yeah. And it's cross generational. Brian: All they really own right now is the look right? They own Jack Pierce's makeup job from Frankenstein. Dawn: But I think that that's exactly the point; [00:39:00] the delusion of what is it that you own if you own, you know, Frankenstein, whatever. But yes, there was definitely an interest to sort of revamp all of the original Universal Monsters they call them and it's the Mummy, Frankenstein, Dracula, and the Invisible Man. John: It's everybody who shows up in Mad Monster Party. Dawn: Exactly. [Soundbite: Mad Monster Party] Dawn: But yeah, The Mummy, starring Tom Cruise, was a tremendous flop. And I think that sort of took the wind out of everybody's sails. John: Let me ask you this, Dawn. If Mel Brooks had titled his movie, Mary Shelley's Young Frankenstein, instead of Mel Brooks' Young Frankenstein, would you have a problem with that? Dawn: Yeah, no, but no, I would not have had a problem, because that would've been irony and juxtaposition. Not just a straight lie. John: So that brings us to some comedies. Young Frankenstein and Abbott and Costello meet Frankenstein, which I was very surprised and a little unnerved to [00:40:00] realize a few years back, Abbott and Costello meet Frankenstein was made a mere 10 years before I was born. And I had always assumed it was way back then. And it's like, no, it wasn't all that way back then. It was pretty, pretty recently. Brian: That happened to me when I realized that Woodstock was only six years before my birth. And it always seemed like ancient history. John: Is that the common thing, Madame Historian? That people kind of forget how recent things were? Dawn: Oh yeah. Remember Roe V. Wade. Sorry, too soon. Brian: We're recording this on that day. Dawn: Yeah, absolutely. I think that it happens to everybody so much faster than you think it's going to. I remember looking around in the nineties feeling, well, surely the seventies was ancient history, you know, because they had That Seventies Show, which debuted as like a period piece. I am still very young and hip and happening and [00:41:00] they are in production for That Nineties Show right now. And I said to my husband, That Nineties Show. I was like, Jesus, I guess that's 20 years because I was in the nineties they did That Seventies Show. And he goes, no baby that's 30 years. And I was like, I'm sorry. I said, I'm sorry, what? He goes, the nineties was 30 years ago. And I just had to sit down and put my bunion corrector back on because these feet are killing me. John: All right. Well, let's just talk about these two comedies and then there's a couple other things I wanna quickly hit on. What are our thoughts on, let's start with Young Frankenstein? [Soundbite: Young Frankenstein] Dawn: I told you I'm not an idealist and we're not a purist about Frankenstein, but I am an enthusiast. So that is why I told you to watch Kenneth Branagh's movie, even though I hate it so much. And that is also why I love Young Frankenstein, because I think that it is often what brings people into the story. For many, many people, it introduces them to the creature. They may know literally nothing about Frankenstein except for Young Frankenstein. And that's actually fine with me because I'm a comedian myself. And I believe that parody is high honor. And often when you parody and satirize something, especially when you do it well, it's because you went to the heart of it. Because you got right in there into the nuggets and the creases of it. And there is something about Young [00:43:00] Frankenstein as ridiculous as it is that has some of that wildness and the hilarity and The Putting on the Ritz. I did find out from my Universal Studios movie history stuff, that that scene was very nearly cut out. Mel Brooks did not like it. And he just didn't like that they were doing it. And of course it's the one, I feel like I'm not the only one who still has to make sure that my beverage is not only out of my esophagus, but like aside, when they start doing it. [Soundbite: Young Frankenstein] Brian: And I understand they were about to throw away the sets from the 1931 Frankenstein when Mel Brooks or his production designer came up and said, Stop stop. We want to use these and they were able to get the original sets or at least the set pieces. John: I believe what it [00:44:00] was, was they got Kenneth Strickfaden's original machines. Ken Strickfaden created all that stuff for the 1931 version and had been used on and off, you know, through all the Frankenstein films. And it was all sitting in his garage and the production designer, Dale Hennessy went out to look at it because they were thinking they had to recreate it. And he said, I think it still works. And they plugged them in and they all still worked. Brian: Oh, wow. Dawn: Oh man. It's alive. John: Those are the original machines. Dawn: I didn't know that. That's fantastic. John: At the time when I was a young kid, I was one of the few kids in my neighborhood who knew the name Kenneth Strickfaden, which opened doors for me. Let me tell you when people find out, oh, you know of the guy who designed and built all those? Oh, yes. Oh, yes. I know all that. One of my favorite stories from Young Frankenstein is when they sold the script. I forget which studio had said yes. And as they were walking out of the meeting, Mel Brooks turned back and said, oh, by the way, it's gonna be in black and white, and kept going. And they followed him down the hall and said, no, it can't be in black and white. And he said, no, it's not gonna work unless it's in [00:45:00] black and white. And they said, well, we're not gonna do it. And they had a deal, they were ready to go. And he said, no, it's gonna stay black and white. And he called up Alan Ladd Jr. that night, who was a friend of his, and said, they won't do it. And he said, I'll do it. And so it ended up going, I think, to Fox, who was more than happy to, to spend the money on that. And even though Mel didn't like Putting on the Ritz, it's weird, because he has almost always had musical numbers in his films. Virtually every movie he's done, he's either written a song for it, or there's a song in it. So, it's weird to me. I've heard Gene Wilder on YouTube talk about no, no, he didn't want that scene at all, which is so odd because it seems so-- Brian: I never thought about that, but you're right. I'm going in my head through all the Mel Brooks films I can remember. And there is at least a short musical interlude in all of them that I can think of. John: But let's talk then about what's considered one of the best mixes of horror and comedy, Abbott and Costello Meet Frankenstein [00:46:00] [Soundbite: Abbott & Costello Meet Frankenstein] Brian: As with comedies of that age, it, it starts off slow, but then it starts to get very funny as time goes on. And all the comedy is because of Abbot and Costello. They are the, [00:47:00] the chemistry they have on screen. I don't know how much of that was actually scripted and how much of it was just how they rolled with each other. But it works really well. Not much of the comedy is provided by the monsters or the supporting cast or even there's maybe a cute, a few sight gags. But wouldn't you say most of the comedy is just the dynamics between them? John: It is. The scary stuff is scary and it's balanced beautifully at the end where they're being chased through the castle. The monsters stayed pretty focused on being monsters and Abbot and Costello's reactions are what's funny. Dawn: If I may, as someone who has already admitted I haven't seen much of the movie, it's feels to me like it may be something like Shaun of the Dead, in the sense that you get genuinely scared if zombie movies scare, then you'll have that same adrenaline rush and the monsters stay scary. They don't have to get silly. Or be a part of the comedy for your two very opposing one's skinny, one's fat, you know, and the way that their friendship is both aligning and [00:48:00]coinciding is the humor. Brian: I believe there is one brief shot in there where you get to see Dracula, Frankenstein's monster and the Wolfman all in the same shot. And I think that might be the only time that ever happens in the Universal Franchise. During the lab scene, does that sound right John? John: I think you really only have Dracula and the Wolfman. I'll have to look it up because the monster is over on another table-- Brian: Isn't he underneath the blanket? John: Nope, that's Lou Costello, because it's his brain that they want. And so they're fighting over that table. And then just a little, I have nothing but stupid fun facts. There's a point in it, in that scene where the monster gets off the table and picks up someone and throws them through a window. And Glenn Strange, who was playing the monster at that point -- and who is one of my favorite portrayers of the monster, oddly enough -- had broken his ankle, I believe. And so Lon, Chaney, Jr. put the makeup on and did that one stunt for him, cuz he was there. Brian: He did that as Frankenstein's monster? John: Yes. Frankenstein. Brian: I didn't know that. Yes, I [00:49:00] did not know that. So he plays both of those roles in that movie? John: Yes. Let me just take a moment to defend Glenn Strange, who played the monster three times: House of Dracula, House of Frankenstein, and Abbott and Costello Meet Frankenstein. In House of Frankenstein, he is following up the film before that, which was Frankenstein Meets the Wolfman, in which, in this very convoluted universe, Lugosi is playing the monster, even though he didn't wanna do it in 31. Because his brain in Ghost of Frankenstein had been put into the Monster's body. So, in Frankenstein Meets the Wolfman, it is Lugosi as the Frankenstein monster. It is Lon Chaney Jr., who had played the monster in Ghost of Frankenstein, now back to playing Larry Talbot. So, it is Wolfman versus Frankenstein. And the premise of the script was he's got Ygor's brain and it's not connecting properly. He's gone blind. They shot that. They had tons of dialogue between the two characters of Larry Talbot pre-wolfman, and the monster, Bela Lugosi. And the executives thought it sounded silly. So they went in and they cut [00:50:00] out all of Lugosi's dialogue out of the movie. So now you have a blind monster stumbling around with his arms in front of him, but he doesn't talk. And if you look at the movie, you can see where he's supposed to be talking and they cut away quickly. And it's really convoluted. Glenn Strange who then has to play the monster next, looks at that and goes well, all right, I guess I'm still blind. I guess I'm still stumbling around with my arms in front of him. Which is the image most people have of the Frankenstein monster, which was never done by Boris in his three turns as the monster. So with, in that regard, I just think Glenn Strange did a great job of picking up what had come before him and making it work moving forward. Anyway, a couple other ones I wanna just hit on very quickly. Brian asked me to watch Dracula in Istanbul. Under the circumstances, a fairly straightforward retelling of the Dracula story. I would recommend it--it is on YouTube--for a couple of reasons. One, I believe it's the first time that Dracula has actual canine teeth. Brian: Yes. John: Which is important. But the other is there's the scene where he's talking to Harker about, I want [00:51:00] you to write three letters. And I want you to post date the letters. It's so convoluted, because he goes into explaining how the Turkish post office system works in such a way that the letters aren't gonna get there. It's just this long scene of explaining why he needs to write these three letters, and poor Harker's doing his best to keep up with that. That was the only reason I recommend it. Brian: That movie is based on a book called Kazıklı Voyvoda, which means The Warrior Prince and it was written in, I wanna say the 1920s or thirties, I wanna say thirties. It's the first book to equate Dracula and Vlad the Impaler, which I've come back to a couple times now, but that's significant because it was a Turkish book and the Turks got that right away. They immediately saw the name Dracula like, oh, we know who we're talking about. We're talking about that a-hole. It was not until the seventies, both the [00:52:00] fifties and the seventies, that Western critics and scholars started to equate the two. And then later when other scholars said, no, there, there's not really a connection there, but it's a fun story. And it's part of cannon now, so we can all play around with it. John: But that wasn't what Bram Stoker was thinking of? Is that what you're saying? Brian: No. No, he, he wasn't, he wasn't making Dracula into Vlad the Impaler. He got the name from Vlad the Impaler surely, but not the deeds. He wasn't supposed to be Vlad the Impaler brought back to life. John: All right. I'm going to ask you both to do one final thing and then we'll wrap it up for today. Although I could talk to you about monsters all day long, and the fact that I'd forgotten Dawn, that you were back on the Universal lot makes this even more perfect. If listeners are going to watch one Dracula movie and one Frankenstein movie, what do you recommend? Dawn, you go first. Dawn: They're only watching one, then it's gotta be the 1931 Frankenstein, with Boris. Karloff, of course. I think it has captured [00:53:00] the story of Frankenstein that keeps one toe sort of beautifully over the novel and the kind of original source material that I am so in love with, but also keeps the other foot firmly in a great film tradition. It is genuinely spooky and it holds so much of the imagery of any of the subsequent movies that you're only watching one, so that's the one you get. But if you do watch any more, you've got this fantastic foundation for what is this story and who is this creature? John: Got it. And Brian, for Dracula? Brian: I was tossing around in my head here, whether to recommend Nosferatu or the 1931 Dracula. And I think I'm going to have to agree with Dawn and say the 1931 for both of them, because it would help a viewer who was new to the monsters, understand where we got the archetypes we have. Now, why, when you type an emoji into your phone for Vampire, you get someone with a tuxedo in the slick back hair or, I think, is there a Frankenstein emoji? Dawn: There is, and he's green with bolts in his neck. [00:54:00] Brian: Yeah, it would. It will help you understand why we have that image permanently implanted in our heads, even though maybe that's not the source material. We now understand the origins of it. Dawn: And if I may too, there's, there's something about having the lore as founded in these movies is necessary, frankly, to almost understand what happens later. I mean, I get very frustrated in 2022, if there is a movie about vampires that takes any time at all to explain to me what a vampire is, unless you're breaking the rules of the vampire. For example, you know, like in Twilight the vampire sparkles, like a diamond when it's out in the sunshine and is the hottest thing ever. That's really great to know. I didn't know that about vampires. That wasn't necessarily true before, you know, but you don't need to take a lot of time. In fact, when you do read Dracula, one of the things for me that I found very frustrating was the suspense of what is it with this guy? They were like: He said we couldn't bring [00:55:00] garlic and they take all this time. And you're kind of as a modern reader being like, cuz he is a fucking vampire. Move on. Like we know this, we got this one. It's shorthand Brian: That's one snide thing I could say about the book is that there are times where Dracula's powers seem to be whatever his powers need to be to make this next scene creepy and move on to the next chapter. John: He was making it up as he went along. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

As a lawyer in Nashville, Tennessee, Brian Boyd helps clients with real estate, construction, and business matters. It is with that knowledge that he and his wife, Dawn, have grown their portfolio to a six-figure income. Brian earned his BA from the University of Tennessee—Chattanooga, a JD from Samford University's Cumberland School of Law, and an LLM in Taxation from Georgetown University Law Center. When not practicing law or working with Dawn on their real estate ventures, Brian can be found on the Brazilian Jiu Jitsu mats at his local gym. His newest book is Replace Your Income: A Lawyer's Guide to Finding, Funding, and Managing Real Estate Investments Today Brian talks about corporate structures, how they differ, and what you could be doing to protect your assets. Episode Links: www.briantboyd.com. www.boydwills.com --- Transcript Before we jump into the episode, here's a quick disclaimer about our content. The remote real estate investor podcast is for informational purposes only, and is not intended as investment advice. The views, opinions and strategies of both the hosts and the guests are their own and should not be considered as guidance from Roofstock. Make sure to always run your own numbers, make your own independent decisions and seek investment advice from licensed professionals.   Michael: What's going on everyone? Welcome to another episode of The Remote Real Estate Investor. I'm Michael Albaum. And today with me, I have Brian Boyd, who is a legal tax professional as well as an author and active investor. He's gonna be talking to us today about what we need to do to protect our rear ends. So let's get into it.   Brian, what's going on, man, thanks so much for taking the time to hang out with me today. I appreciate you.   Brian: Hey, Michael, thanks for having me today. I'm glad to be here.   Michael: I am super excited to chat with you. Because you are a legal attorney and investor something we don't often see too much of.   Brian: Yeah, I am. I started out in Washington, DC as a tax attorney at a company called Ernst and Young. And over the years, I got into real estate and investing because I was representing a lot of contractors and developers and started looking at the way they were doing their businesses. And from there, I started tweaking their models trying to figure out well, how can I make this a little bit more tax efficient, create a little bit more loss with a lot more cash flow. And so that's when my wife and I in 2017, decided to get into real estate investing on our own. And now we're up to 25 doors, and we're cash flowing just fine. You know, in, in fact, maybe in the next year or two, she could step away from her full time job. And we'll just manage real estate.   Michael: Man, I love it. And so is your background in tax or on the legal side of things, or both.   Brian: So I have a JD and I have an LLM, which is a master's degree in, in law. But It specializes in tax. So yes, I do corporate formations. I do business transactions, helping people the real estate, anything and everything to do with businesses, individuals and their finances. In real estate investing. That's what I do. So there was a time I used to go to court, but I don't go to court anymore. My partner goes to court, and I just do business transactions and real estate investing.   Michael: Man, I love it. And before we get everyone's hopes up, you are located out in Tennessee. But is that the only state in which you practice in? Or can you help folks all over the place?   Brian: So I am licensed in Tennessee and Vermont of all places. My partner is licensed in Tennessee in Maryland. But if it has to do with federal law, I can work all over the country. However, if people are asking specifically about California law, I'm not your guy, call a local attorney speak to a local attorney. But from a structural standpoint, I can give you the basics and kind of point you in the right direction. But unless you're in one of those jurisdictions, and you want me to practice in those jurisdictions, those are the jurisdictions I'm limited to.   Michael: Okay. Well, let's talk about that for a minute. Because I think we were chatting before the show, we hit record, and there are a ton of Californians physically moving out to Tennessee. But my guess is they're probably a lot of Californians investing out in Tennessee. And so for those folks that maybe live outside Tennessee, but are investing in Tennessee, in terms of structuring their team around them, should they be thinking about having a local attorney local to them, as well as someone such as yourself or a an attorney located where the property is? How should you be thinking about that?   Brian: No, that's great question. I actually had an attorney contact me a few weeks ago and he is a he's in Chico, California. He called me and said, Hey, I properties in Tennessee. Can you help me on what? Yeah, I'll absolutely be happy to help you. And so what we did is we structured a Tennessee holding company with a wholly owned Tennessee subsidiary. And even though he's out there, he owns the LLC here. And as he invests around the country, like Texas, or Florida, or you know, any of the other states, you know, we'll set up other holding companies to represent those entities. But he can stay in California and own these companies, as long as they're structured properly, to pass through to him over in California.   Michael: Okay, awesome. Well, Brian, give us like, the quick and dirty if there is such a thing of what investors need to know, because I think a lot of our investors are starting to scale their portfolios that got a couple of deals under their belt, and they're really looking for some asset protection. What are some things they need to be aware of and where have you seen people go wrong?   Brian: So I have seen people go wrong with a few misnomers about what they believe series LLCs are and what land trusts are. So a series LLC, I know that everybody hears therefore multiple properties. and they are. But they also don't understand that when you have a series LLC, you have to have a separate bank account, a separate tax ID separate books, all of that creates an administrative burden on you to keep all these bank accounts separate all these books separate all these tax IDs separate. And typically I see those used more efficiently if you're a developer, that way you can develop a series, sell it, and not worry about it. Again, if you're holding your assets in series LLC, and you have series one through 10, for example, that's 10 tax IDs, that's 10 sets of books, that's 10 book keeper entries every month for those separate things.   Whereas if you just have an LLC, and you treat it properly, so your corporate veil cannot be pierced. And a corporate veil is the corporate formalities that you have to adhere to. So your corporate structure is honored by the courts. And typically, here are the things that people get popped for, they'll pay for their groceries out of their LLC, they'll pay their own mortgage out of their LLC, or they'll just treat their LLC like a checkbook. And that's not what it's for. It is a standalone entity, and it has to be treated and respected that way.   So if you don't do those things, you're fine. Your one LLC is going to handle it just fine. For example, my wife and I have, we have a parent company, and that parent company has two LLC is underneath it. And one LLC is for our portfolio over here. And the other LLC is for that portfolio over here. And it all flows up into the holding company, which is a perfectly fine way to structure your holdings. Yes, it is more filing fees every year, it's three filing fees. But if you're trying to get away from filing fees by creating a series, LLC, you're losing the war to win the battle on a filing fee. Because you're gonna pay all these other expenses for tax IDs and book entries and bank statements. And you're just creating a mess. I would not use series LLCs.   Now as it relates to land trust, we mentioned that earlier, I've heard a lot of people say, Well, I want to use a land trust. Why do you want to use a land trust? I understand that land trust, get it out of your name. And I'm well aware of that. But it doesn't really create any protections like an LLC would. A lot of people say, Well, I want the anonymity of an LLC, well, you can have the anonymity, you know, of an LLC without using Land Trust. Many states, Wyoming, Tennessee, Texas, you can file your LLC documents, and your name won't appear anywhere on there as long as you use a registered agent. So you can receive the benefits of the anonymity that comes along with the land trust by simply using the LLC. And you'll get more protections with the LLC.   So I would encourage your listeners to go talk to a lawyer about setting up an LLC to hold their assets, I tend to eschew Land Trust, they don't really provide the protection that people think they do. Unless you're using an irrevocable trust, which is a trust that gets it out of your estate. Not only does it get it out of your estate, it gets it out of your control, and you can't do anything with it, you have to go through a trustee and that trustee is supposed to use their best judgment on what to do for the trust. So think about that, as you move forward. And these these ideas that people read about online, I really like LLCs, my wife and I use them, I encourage my clients to use them. So that's just coming from my experience and what I do day to day in my practice.   Michael: Yeah, from a lot of the folks I've spoken to it sounds like the LLC has come like the Colt 45. For real estate investors. It's reliable, it's standard issue, it can do a lot of the things you need, you need it to do. It's nothing fancy, it just can get the job done.   Brian: No, absolutely. I agree with that statement completely. Okay, cool.   Michael: And, Brian, I think you're a good person to ask because I think we have similar styles of investing and asset protection, which I'm glad to hear. It sounds like you've broken down your portfolios into two separate LLCs What comfort what level of comfort do you have with the size of your portfolio in each LLC, before you want to further break it up or bring additional LLC online?   Brian: And you know, that's a good question. So the way we have treated our LLCs is we go by city, what's in each city. So for example, in Chattanooga, we have an LLC for Chattanooga, and Knoxville and Gatlinburg, we have an LLC for those properties. And in our short term rentals are Montana and the West Tennessee property. We have a separate LLC for that because they're out west So we've kind of broken it down over here, over here and over there. And then we have a parent LLC over top of it. So it's not really a matter of the number of doors or number of properties that have in an LLC. For me, it was geographic, and being able to keep everything separate. And especially for our bookkeeper to know that, hey, these are Chattanooga, they're in that LLC. When you run that k one, it needs to include all these properties. Same over here. So it wasn't a matter of my comfort level with the number of properties, it was just a matter of how can I segregate out all the separate assets that we have and make it user friendly? And also, we're not clumping all of our assets into one LLC. We're spreading them out. But we're doing it geographically.   Michael: Right. Okay. And as you and your wife do start to scale, I mean, is there a number of value that you that you'd see hitting in a particular LLC and saying, oh, that's maybe a little heavy, and that LLC, even if I'm investing in the same geographic area, let me bring online, another LLC, just so I don't have so much value sitting in a singular bucket? Or is not? Is that not really a concern of yours?   Brian: No, that's not really a concern. And here's why it's not a concern. It's because it doesn't really matter how much my entire portfolio is valued at, I'm always going to be deploying that equity somewhere else to get into another deal. And that equity may get deployed into another LLC. So it's not really a matter of oh, we're too heavy in this particular market. If I had 1000 doors in Chattanooga, I would still leave everything in that one LLC.   Michael: Okay, right on. Let's talk about insurance for a minute. Yeah, how much is enough?   Brian: I would tell people, you can't have enough. You can't. So we, we have homeowners insurance on every single property. And then our LLC is have business insurance as well. So we also have business insurance for the LLC. And each property is fully insured. And then we require renters to have homeowners insurance. And on top of that, we require renters to use a product called say Rhino, which is security deposit insurance. So they're not paying us a security deposit that we're holding an escrow for them, they're paying monthly, you know, let's say, you know, a month's rent is $1,000, we typically require two and a half months of rent for a security deposit, will Rhyno only requires them to pay like $8 per 1000. So they would much rather pay 20 to 24 bucks, as opposed to tune $2,500 in security deposit. And over the over the year, it comes out a lot cheaper for them. And we're safe and secure, knowing that as long as they're paying that Rhino insurance. If we have to make a claim, it's there, we've got it, they'll take care of it. So we're we're layering insurance, on insurance, on insurance with every everything we can do. So not only from a corporate standpoint of the company, and the asset, but also the tenants and the security deposit. So that's four layers of insurance.   Michael: Run that by me again, what rino does so so they are basically ensuring the security deposit, then you can make a claim for damage against that security deposit up to that limit.   Brian: Yes, yes, absolutely. That's exactly what they're doing.   Michael: And what about the tenant that goes haywire, decides I'm gonna stop paying rent? I'm not paying this right. No nonsense. So they stopped paying it. They've paid six months to date. How does that work?   Brian: Yeah, we make a claim. Like if, and so we're, we're on top of our rents and our tenants. And it's in our lease that you have to pay all this stuff. And they do. And if they don't we just make a claim immediately.   Michael: And how is your claim experience spin with those folks?   Brian: We haven't had to make a claim yet. But the person Yeah, the person I learned this from, he turned us on to it. And we're like, what, have you ever made a claim? He's like, Yeah, they paid us in four days. I'm like, done. You know,   Michael: Yeah, I'm sold. I gotta go check this company. What's it called?   Brian: Say Rhino. Okay. And, you know, we looked into it. I did my research on it. I think they just did another round of fundraising. And we were sold. We've talked to him, they're easy to work with. They won't reject any of your tenants regardless of credit. As long as you approve them, they're approved. So I take it look, yeah, no longer holding escrow and no longer dealing with security deposits. Let them deal with it. And our experience so far has been great. Let's knock on wood. I don't have to use it. But if I do They'll also pay attorneys fees. So, if you have to let somebody Yeah, go make a claim.   Michael: Man, this podcast just took a wild left turn, but I love it. I've totally here for it.   Brian: Yeah, it's, it's, it's great. And that all goes into ensuring our company, ensuring our tenants making sure everything's taken care of, but also protecting us, because we have put a lot of money a lot of time into these assets. And, you know, we want to protect those assets.   Michael: Yeah, no, it makes total sense. Speaking of Brian, let's talk about this topic for a minute, because you're another good person to ask because you have both short term and long term rentals. Do you see a difference in risk exposure between the two and grouping both asset classes in us in the same LLC?   Brian: No, I don't. The only risk that you run with short term rentals is the seasonal market. In that, you know, we were just talking about Gatlinburg, you know, and people don't realize that the high season is actually summer in Gatlinburg, and it's not winter, which is kind of weird. But yeah, people don't want to go to cabins in the winter. So you've got to be able to weather those low months. But no, I would keep both assets in the same LLC if it's in the same geographic area for me.   Now, that's not to say it's not right for you. And you know, we could also talk about what's best for you. But no, it doesn't matter to me. Because for us, as everything flows up into our tax structure, we've created this, this LLC step tax structure, that everything flows to the top as a pass through. So everything's flown to the top and the parent company pays all the mortgages on everything. So if you have long term rentals that are just, you know, clicking along and you have a week, month, say in Gatlinburg, like we both know that January, February is a week, month in Gatlinburg. You know, there's plenty of money just to go ahead and pay that note. So that's, that's how we do it. And that's what I encourage clients to do. Because you're, you're not really breaching the corporate veil of everything flows up in the parent company's paying for everything. And that's how we structured it. So we're still, you know, adhering to the corporate formalities, respecting those corporate formalities, and everything is paid from the parent company.   Michael: Okay, cool. And then from like a legal risk mitigation perspective, short term rental doesn't sound like it poses any additional risk as compared to a long term rental.   Brian: No, I wouldn't think so. Because the the management companies and I don't know, if you use the management company, but they have them sign all these documents, and they have their own attorneys, or all these waivers in there, and they have to put a security deposit down, you know, to rent the property and, you know, a cleaning deposit. And there's so many different deposits that we tend to get good renters at all the properties.   Michael: Okay. Okay, fantastic. And as someone is thinking about scaling their portfolio into multiple properties, maybe some different asset classes, from an entity structure, is there anything that they should be aware of, or they should be doing differently, if they've already, you know, started using LLC us in the past?   Brian: I would stay with LLCs. If you if you turn to like a C Corp, you get the double layer double layer of tax. If you turn to an S corp, I think you're gonna have to deal with more corporate formalities than you are with an LLC, an LLC is very flexible with what you can do with it. I wouldn't go with a partnership, a general partnership doesn't tend to have the protections nor does a limited liability partnership. You really want the corporate structure of the LLC to stay in place.   So there is no other entity out there that I would encourage people to use other than the LLC. You know, reasonable minds can differ on that. I wrote a chapter in the book on it. But at this point, I am not advising clients to use any other structure other than the LLC, it's very flexible, it's easy to buy and sell assets through and quite frankly, you know, it's it's easily respected in the state of Tennessee and in other states as well, I'm sure you know, LLCs are just common now, you know, as common now as s corpse were in the 60s 70s 80s and up to the 90s.   I would also encourage people to look at Wyoming, Wyoming is on the cutting edge of LLC formation. You know, they recently came out with a new type of LLC that has to do with crypto currencies and blockchain protections. It's it's crazy what they're doing out there. Tennessee follows shortly thereafter and we're all still trying get our heads around it because one, I'm not a crypto guy. I don't know a whole lot about it. But you're starting to deal with like blockchain technology for the way people can vote. It's, it's really fascinating. So I do like Wyoming, I have a Wyoming LLC for one of my assets. And, you know, it's a great state as well.   Michael: I dig it. You mentioned your book, let's talk about that for a minute. What's it called? Where can people find it? And what should they expect to find if they get a   copy?   Brian: Sure. It's, it's called replace your income, a lawyer's guide to finding funding and managing real estate investments. And they can find it on Amazon. Or they can go to www.BrianTBoyd.com. And they can order it through there. So the reason I wrote this book is because I'm having conversations very similar to what we're talking about now, about, how do I form things? What do I form? Why do I form it? Should I put all my assets in one LLC? And this book came about as a compendium of all those conversations I've had over the years with, with clients in real estate investing, how do they get started? How do they find properties? How do they get a loan? You know, what kind of loans are available? What platforms do I use? Do I do I use, Say Rhino? Or do I use Bildium? Or, you know, what's available? How can I do this using technology to leverage efficiency here? And so it's 13 chapters on all of that, including tax benefits, finance tips, how to structure an LLC, what you need to think about when you're putting together an operating agreement? You know, what's the difference between an operating agreement and bylaws? What's the difference between a charter and an articles of organization. I try to break it down. As if I'm talking to my 11 year old son, anybody can understand it. And that's what I want people to know about this book. It's, anybody can invest in real estate. You don't have to be a professional or have, you know, a six figure income, you can be a college student and start house hacking. You can easily you know, get a loan go buy a small two bedroom, one bath apartment somewhere, and get a roommate, move a roommate and then charge them rent and now your house hacking and now your real estate. And so it's possible for everybody.   Michael: Yeah, I love it. I love it. Brian, curveball question here. What's the best compliment you've ever received?   Brian: That I married up?   Michael: Is that Is that a compliment to your wife? Is that a sort of backhanded compliment to you?   Brian: It's probably a backhanded compliment to me, but I I, I could not do what I do without my wife, my wife is, you know, she's an inspiration. She basically runs the entire company. She only lets me talk to people if she can't figure it out. And she is the backbone behind this company. And the funny thing is, I had to drag her into real estate investing, I kept telling her about all the tax benefits of this honey, we can, we can make passive income. And, you know, let me tell you about appreciation and depreciation and how we can, you know, offset some of our income taxes. And she didn't believe me. Now, mind you, I have a master's degree and like, I went to school to do this. And I actually did this for a living for years. And somebody handed her Rich Dad, Poor Dad, and she read it and we're lying in bed when I was like, Hey, did you know that? If we did this, we could pay for a car?   I was like, yeah, she's like, did you know we could write our phone bill up? I'm like, Yeah, I did. She's like, did you know like, we could buy a computer and write it off in one year? I'm like, yes. I've been telling you this. And she doesn't believe it coming from me, the guy who has two graduate degrees and does it for a living, but she believes it from the guy that wrote the book, and I'm like, Okay, well, maybe I need to write a book and she'll she'll listen to, but she still doesn't listen to me. So it is what it is. But she she runs this company. And you know, I couldn't do without her. So when somebody says, I'm married up, I'm like, Yeah, I did. And I'm very lucky I did.   Michael: Amazing. So amazing. Well, Brian, that brings up maybe my last question for you. Before I let you out of here. I think there are a lot of folks probably listening to this that have a partner significant other that aren't interested or aren't involved with a real estate investing, but they would really like them to be or they need them to be. And so you went through this struggle with your wife, how how should people be thinking about bringing their other partner into the fold?   Brian: What I would tell them is you don't have to buy the book. You can look online and see the tax benefits of it. Is that You're going to create positive cash flow. And you're going to create tax deductions that's going to offset not only your cash flow, but your current income tax liability. So if you would like to pay less in income taxes every year, look at real estate investing. Look at it. You know, if you decide not to do and it's not for you, okay, don't do it. There are other things you can invest in. But our Congress has codified our public policy of investing in real estate in our tax code. It is there for you to take advantage of, look, when it comes tax time every year, I always kind of get a little tense, but then I'm like, Okay, well, let's go go buy another property. And then we can cost segregate that property, accelerate the depreciation, and create a larger tax deduction for ourselves, and it's not so painful come tax time.   I'm sure you know that as well that, hey, we can cashflow this property. And, you know, the government actually is encouraging us to go buy real estate, the government is encouraging you to succeed. And that's all I want for anybody is to succeed. You know, this book, I think it's 19.99. It's a lot cheaper than sitting down with me for an hour. And this is everything I've already talked about with people, and I do on a regular basis. So if your spouse is struggling to get on board with your idea of real estate investing, you know, maybe buy the book for them and show them that, hey, this is possible.   You're talking to a guy who worked two jobs to put himself through law school, and then two jobs while I was in graduate school on top of that, and I'm still paying off student loans. But you know what, I paid off a student loan last week. And I did it because we got a refund. That came back to me as a result of the deductions I have through real estate. And the first thing I did with that check was, hey, it's enough. I'm going to pay off that loan. And I did. So it's, it's a real example of how real estate can affect your bottom line.   Michael: I love it. That is awesome. And congrats on getting that loan paid off. That's really exciting.   Brian: Oh, thanks so much.   Michael: You got it. Brian, we're gonna get you out of here. If people want to continue the conversation, learn more about you. What's the best way for them to do so?   Brian: They can get in touch with me at the law firm. The website is www.BoydWills.com. And, you know, you can reach out to me on the Brian T Boyd, Facebook page and on Instagram.   Michael: Okay, amazing. We'll be sure to do that. Brian. Thanks again for sharing some amazing wisdom man. Appreciate you coming on. We'll talk soon.   Brian: Thanks, Michaels. Good to be here.   Michael: You could take care.   All right, everyone. That was our episode. A big thank you to Brian for coming on and sharing some wisdom about LLCs asset protection, tax benefits and some loopholes that we can take advantage of as real estate investors. As always, if you enjoyed the episode, feel free to leave us a rating or review wherever you get your podcasts and we look forward to seeing on the next one. Happy investing

"Last year is when NFT started taking off and more of that aspect of things, that's the part that actually really drew me in because that to me from a technologist perspective, from a software developer perspective, that is where it connects to our world. And I can see the value in digital ownership and things like that."- Ian Landsman Watch this episode on YouTubeIan Landsman:Ian's Company: HelpspotIan on Twitter: @ianlandsmanBrian Casel:Brian's company, ZipMessageBrian on Twitter: @casjamThanks to ZipMessageZipMessage (today's sponsor) is the video messaging tool that replaces live calls with asynchronous conversations.  Use it free or tune into the episode for an exclusive coupon for Open Threads listeners.Quotes from this episode:Quote 1:Brian: I'm still learning and I'm still trying to figure out what I think about all that. I do think that there seems to be an opportunity in what people are calling Web3 and like "tokenization" and...  Ian: Right.  Brian: And and it does like there are like to me, there are like glimpses of, of potential possibilities of what this stuff could mean, like, you know, in terms of like smart contracts and how something can, like, grow in value. I like to think back to like an artist, especially like a musician. But I guess this can go for any kind of art where the original creator can be paid as their art continues to be bought and sold over time, which is like fundamentally not possible with like physical paintings. Right, right, right. That seems interesting.And then I'm then I wonder how that can make you adapt to other use cases.Ian: You know, I sort of see I mean, the three main areas I'm interested in and there are lots of other edge cases and people have all kinds of things they're attempting to do. Right. But the three main ones are I guess you have like the what is the most visible aspect is like the art, right? And you know, you have the one side that loves that.You have other many people who make fun of it like you monkeys and dragons and whatever, right? Like digital art. And you have people who are very mainstream, but he's making still pretty weird art, Elon Musk naked and whatever. All kinds of stuff that he does not.Brian: Even know about. These people are probably the most famous.Ian: Right, right. Yeah. He's done he does one every day. And anyway, so it's like the pure there's the pure art aspect of like artists doing one of art. There are artists doing these collections like bored apes and things like that that people are probably heard of. And yet so what you're referencing there is and when you resell this art, the royalty a percentage of the sale goes just automatically to the.And there are some details around that, whatever. But ultimately a percentage of that goes to the artist. So that's not just like when the artist is dead, maybe it becomes worth something or like whatever. Or they're forced to keep creating stuff because that's the only way to live. Like you could create a couple of things that are huge hits and make a lot of money, you know, ongoing because people are reselling them.Quote 2:Brian: If a software startup is going to become like Web3 enabled or whatever like associated with Web3, it means that they are at some point going to offer a token like from their brand.Ian: Potentially.Brian: And users of their tool. Like the more they use it or the more they help grow the tool and its user base, they gain ownership of this token. And I guess externally the token could be bought and sold just like any other token. A Bitcoin or Etherium or Solana. Mm-hmm. And that's the idea is like you're building it's almost like like the only parallel I can think of is like a publicly-traded company. Right? Like. Right. Like, I use an Apple Computer, but I could also own Apple stock. And but I guess the idea for this...Is that you're it's more intertwined where, like, the more you use it, the more stock you gain in this equity that you gain.Ian: Right, earning it for it. And like, it. Yeah, exactly.Brian: So it's which in turn, like raises the value of that coin or that. Right?Ian: Right. So I think there's this example of like you, you know, the way it works now is you go and get investment from rich people, but you're literally limited to people who make more than $200,000 a year or $3,000 a year. We can invest in private companies essentially as like an angel or things like that or VC. And so you get a handful of those you raise some money, then you start your software business and your customers have nothing to do with any of it.They don't your first customers get none out of it other than being the first customers. Which is great. If they like your product, that's fine. But we all know that the first customers are actually super important. Like they giving you the most important feedback. They're taking the biggest risk because you're probably going to go out of business is the reality.So like they're taking the risk, putting their time and effort into participating in your software product at very early stages. So they're not, you know, compensate for any of this. They can't even buy shares in your company because you are not a publicly-traded company. Yes, with Apple, I could buy shares but I can't buy shares in your early startup.It's literally impossible. Right. And so like against the law, like you can't even offer its not offer-able. So I think that's where it's interesting because, with the coins, you do have this at least potential. I think there are not a lot of places that have realized that potentially it's still super early. But the potential idea of like both raising money for more people and then also rewarding early customers in tokens so that it's almost like growth participation.Brian:Yes, I think it's like a user activation play, marketing play for on the user side and then on the company side, it's like financing.Quote 3:Brian: What about getting back to basics of like you have to solve a problem that people actually care about? How does tokenization even help solve that problem or make it easier or, you know, aside from just giving users equity or giving them more of a stake in the early part of a company by using the product?Is there anything else like functionally that a token could potentially do, you know? Ian: Well, some yeah, there is like and so like in the horse racing game, I'm involved in. The token is going to be like how you buy and sell things in the game. There are two tokens actually, and one of them is the transactional token. So it allows things like super low-cost transactions like there's no 3% stripe involved there. Now all the in-game transactions are basically free, even though there's real money moving back and forth between them. So like that would be like one example of like in the application, there's some benefit. So yeah. Oh, I don't think in this way always has to.To me, like it's still interesting just in the like, is this a way to do equity that's better, which is where what I was saying before like I think you could just as they could just change the laws and make it so I could just issue stock to all my early customers like that could be a thing, right? Like it's not a thing.I can't actually do that. But it could be a thing if we change the laws to make it a thing and then that would be a thing. And I think that would be you know, it's not a path for everybody. Just like this Web3 stuff wouldn't be a path for everybody, but it might be a path for certain kinds of businesses to raise money.

Welcome back to Artbeat Radio! We had the opportunity to interview Ricky Mena! Ricky dresses up as Spider-Man, taking a therapeutic approach to enhance the quality of life in children who are terminal, battling life threatening illness, special needs, fostered, abused, bullied, and more. He has touched countless lives in his time as Spider-Man and has big plans to continue in the future. Listen in as we talk about his life, his work and his future plans.  You can find Ricky and learn more about him through his Instagram @Rickymena Thanks for listening and tune in next time! For more information about our organization, please visit our website www.ableartswork.org  Audio Transcription: (Please listen on Podomatic or Spotify to view the full transcript) *Intro music by Artbeat Radio staff*  Music, stories, and more! You're listening to Artbeat Radio, a program of Able ARTS Work.  *Instrumental spiderman theme plays* Renee: Ricky! Ricky: Hi Renee. How you doing? Renee: Hi! My name is Renee Morneau and how are you? Ricky: *laughs* I'm doing pretty good this morning. It's good to finally get on here and meet you guys.  Renee: Nice to meet you too! What is your favorite movie of Spider-Man? Ricky: My favorite Spider-Man movie?  Renee: Yeah Ricky: Oh, man. That's a tough question. There are some good ones out there but my favorite is one that is not a lot of other people's favorites, which is The Amazing Spider-Man two with Andrew Garfield. Renee: Wow! Ricky: Yeah. I've said that on other podcasts that are famous for like, you know, actual Marvel podcasts? And people are always blown away by that answer but- because not a lot of people like that one, but that's my favorite one. Renee: Mine too! Ricky: It is? Oh my gosh! Renee: I think me and you are a good common Ricky: Yeah, that's true. We're a good team. Hi Alison! Alison: Hi. How how did this all start?  Ricky: Well, it got started when I was at a very low point in life, so I wasn't doing good with money. I had just like, got out of a relationship where I thought I was gonna get married with this person and it didn't work out that way, moved across the country. Back to my hometown of Pittsburgh, California  Alison: I've been there! Ricky: You've been there? Alison: Yes! Ricky: It's a small place that no one knows exists, so man, so many connections today. But my friend said, hey, come on back to your hometown and you will help you get back on your feet. And they said you could stay on our couch until you get back on your feet. And for the first time in my life, I had to do that. And it took a lot off. A lot of pride for me to swallow, to do that, and after a couple months I was getting back on my feet. I became a personal trainer. I was training people in the gym and doing all that cool stuff and getting really in shape myself. And then I fell asleep on the couch one night and I had a dream that my grandmother, who passed away a couple months before, came to me. She put on this movie projector that put this like movie in the sky and it showed me Spider-Man visiting these kids in the hospital and he's just making them so happy in the dream. And I looked at my my grandma, who I called, who I called my nana. And I said, Nana, what does it have to do with me? And she said that is you when you wake up, that's what you're that's what you're gonna do. And so, I woke up with $300 in my name and I, you know, to my name. And I only had a car that I had paid off. And I looked at the car in the parking lot and I said I knew I was going to sell it. And because the dream felt so real. And yeah, so I've got a suit and two months later 'cause it took the gentleman 2 months to make it and I got it. And I started doing my work there. And then, you know, that's just the short of it. It was really hard getting started getting into visit children or, you know, special needs children or children on the spectrum and that's where my work really started. But it was hard to get started. 'cause everyone said no and then that all changed with how persistent I was and how much I showed- showed my intent on what I was doing it was not for me it wasn't for money it was just to help and I think it really after that. Alison: Guess what? I was born in Oakland! Ricky: You were born in Oakland? Can I tell you a guess what too? Alison: Yeah.  Ricky: The first hospital that I-I had to sneak into my first hospital, which I will not advise anyone to do! but I had to sneak into my first hospital at the orders of a mom who really wanted me to be there for her son. And it was in Oakland. I won't say which hospital, but I'll just tell you it was in Oakland.  How long have I been acting like Spider-Man? So how long have I been Spider-Man? I've been Spider-Man since 2014.  Renee: Wow, that's a long time.  Ricky: Yeah, it feels like a long time. You know what's crazy? In Spider-Man, in the movies, keeps getting younger. And I keep getting older, so it's tough.  Renee: I'm in a relationship. I have a boyfriend.  Ricky: That's cool. You would love my wife. She-I don't know if this is any one question later and I hope I'm not spoiling it- but she dresses as spider Gwen! Renee: Cool! Ricky: Yes, she's awesome! Renee: How many kids did you save when you visit the hospital?  Ricky: Oh well, I like the word you used, save? But I will say that, you know, one of the things of me being Spider-Man is that I don't. I don't have the ability to actually save anybody. And I really think that's important for people to know because that's part of real life, you know, there's the there's the movies, and then there's real life, you know, And so, my job. When I go into the hospital is not to save anyone. It's just to be there for the times that are really hard. And even though it's really hard to help people smile and to help kids really smile and that can feel sometimes like being saved. You know what I mean? It's like, if you have 30 days in a row that are just really dark and bad, and you don't feel good and then someone comes along or something happens in your life to where you're like “Oh my gosh this is the first time in a long time that I could feel the sun, you know that I could that I feel warm and I feel good about something” And one thing that does is it gives you hope. And. And the hope itself can save people, I believe, but I'm just a messenger of the hope. But to answer your question, I've been there for over 15,000 kids in seven years. Yeah, from uh, from the Bay Area, California, all the way to London. I did long time...a long time! it gets, it gets tiring, so you gotta pace yourself, you know?  Renee: Tell you why I said hi. That's all. Ricky: She's teaching right now. She's actually a teacher, so- Renee: Wow! Ricky: And she's out there, teaching. So, she's double awesome. She's going for her masters in school, and yeah, she's amazing on so many different levels. I wish she was here so you guys can meet her. But maybe that's for another time.  Renee: That's so awesome. Thank you, Ricky! Brian: Hi Ricky! It's nice meeting you. Ricky: It's great to meet you too.  Brian: How has your journey been?  Ricky: My journey has been a very long journey. It feels like it's been a very rewarding journey and also a very difficult journey. And if I'm able to elaborate on that just a little bit- Brian: Yeah, please! Ricky: Yeah, it's difficult. Because I visit, like I said before, there's children that I cannot save. I walk into the lives of children who are sometimes, you know, they're at the end of their life. And I know that's a hard topic, but that's something I do. And so that's when it gets difficult that it starts feeling-the journey starts feeling long. At that point, it's hard to come to terms with those realities, and especially when I become so close to everyone I come in contact with, I'm just-I'm a person who likes to open my heart to everyone. And but, the most rewarding is actually seeing that my presence there, even though it's just dressing as Spider-Man, you know, and being there as a friend. And you know, kind of giving these therapeutic services. In this unique way that I'm doing it- to see so many my presence just matter so much and I'm doing the smallest, most simplest thing. It's just being there holding hands, encouraging people and just kind of like implanting that hope. So, it's been a rollercoaster to sum all that up. It's been a lot of ups and downs. And uh, I just-the one thing I work hard towards every day is to find that new balance every day it's something new. Every year, it's something new. And I have to continually just try to find that balance for myself between my personal life and the life of Spider-Man. To balance those things, to still be able to retain an amount of joy for myself, to do the job, but also be myself, my joyful self and in real life too. So it's been hard, but it's been rewarding at the same time.  Brian: Yeah. Well, how do you about how do you balance all that?  Ricky: That's a very good question. How to balance those kind of things? And I'm sure you guys deal with that too. Brian: Yeah. Ricky: It's like, you know, it's balancing like this, that's something that's for everyone, not just me. It's difficult and it's a balancing act that will-if you can think of the balancing act as juggling and you have three balls that you have initially, right? And that's very difficult. And you're like, “Oh my gosh, it's difficult”. And so the more practice you have with those three balls juggling, you're juggling the better you'll get, the better you'll get. But then all of a sudden, life will throw a 4th. And so you're like, “Oh my gosh”, and you gotta rebalance and you got to-and so it's just not freaking out. When something new enters the-your juggling act and just allowing yourself being kind to yourself, give yourself some time. The world can make you feel like you have to rush and kind of and kind of be OK quickly. But that's not...That's not the path you wanna take. You wanna take your own time and do you wanna just-you know, I always say, listen, I always talk to people outside yourself. And if it helps talk to a therapist. That has helped me-has helped me so much, you know, talking to friends. But one thing that's helped me outside of that is exercise. In any way. Listening to music has been huge for me. Um, and then redefining your work. Your purpose. For me it's being Spider-Man. But for me, if I stay doing the same thing. Just all the time-if I did sit the same thing all seven years without any growth or kind of like throwing something new in there to challenge even just myself, or to just change the landscape of what I do for children. Then it would have just kind of got boring. I would have been in the same-I would have offered nothing new to myself or the kids, so it's like it's about challenging yourself. It's about all that. The juggling act changes every day, so don't get discouraged. Every day is a new day and instead of looking at it like, “Oh my gosh, I'm so overwhelmed by the day and how new it is” Change is very hard every day. But look at it as like a new opportunity, a new adventure. And even though it's hard, it's something that whatever is hard can sculpt you and help make you a stronger person for tomorrow. And shoot, you guys, you guys have been being sculpted your whole lives and so, oh my gosh, you're probably so strong and I am in my own way and I know that. And so, it's like you're being prepared for something great. Your purpose is just is just far greater than so many other people on this planet. 'cause you're being thrown so much right and I feel the same way and it's like stepping up to that challenge every day. So. The juggling act is tough, but it's very doable. It's very doable. Brian: I've got another question. Now that we've got this Omicron, how is it possible to balance life like you're talking about? Ricky: Right, it becomes very hard. It is as far as like the coronavirus in general. If I could share my little experience very briefly-when the coronavirus first hit California, I was standing in a hospital. As Spider-Man, my wife was next to me, as spider Gwen and we just left the room and we were immediately swept away into a room that no one was saying and we were told that the last visit we just did, the little girl had been, or may have been around someone with the coronavirus, and that our visit was done and we were to visit no more kids. Then we had to actually quarantine and they kept us there for an hour. All my volunteers-they had our bags. They dropped them at our feet in this room. It was very scary. And at that moment, I didn't know it at the time, but everything changed for us, just like it did for everyone else and for us. You know, we visit terminal-or excuse me, children who have immune-compromised immune system, so we can't-we have not been able to visit any children in two years. I have not been able to do the work that I love doing with all my heart to the full capacity that I've loved doing it in two years, so. It's been very trying for us just like it is for you and to find that balance. These challenges, if you look at them as-as these obstacles as walls, then they're kind of they're a lot-it's a lot harder to visualize yourself overcoming like a wall or a dead end because it's like hard to visualize going through a dead end. So, what we've had to do, and I encourage anyone else to do, is look at all these challenges that the coronavirus is throwing it all of us and look at them as obstacles. So, when we couldn't visit children in the hospital, we saw that as an obstacle instead of a dead end. So how can I still bring hope to children? We're in a time where, look, we're not in the same room. Guys and girls, we're still talking. So we have technology. Let's utilize that. How can we be creative to get what we need to nourish our souls, to survive and kind of like still tap into that like evolution of self? Yeah, we all need it, like we all need to grow human beings. So amazing. We're like plants. We need the water, we need the sun. We just need that, right? Brian: Yeah! Ricky, So whats crazy is-I'll tell you even more, Brian. Like, Speaking of clients, he's like, I used to be a tree trimmer before, before I was Spider-Man. I was a tree trimmer for 10 years. And one thing I thought that was so amazing about trees is that if you plant a tree, Somewhere where there's no water source at all, right? Or let's say a tree grew really big and then had this great water source. This river was nearby and it's roots grew to the water. But the river dried out and there's no more water anywhere the tree doesn't say to itself, “You know what I give up, I'm going to die”. The tree's roots actually become that much more persistent and resilient underground. And will break even concrete. You've seen it. Brian: Yes! Ricky: There's sidewalks that are just. Broken. Right, because it won't let anything in its path. And this is a tree that cannot move it's relying on food coming to it. Right. So it's like “I gotta find it. I gotta find water” and it will. It will find pipes. If it has to and it'll bust those pipes to get water. It'll find-It'll find a water source. And it's been amazing. 'cause I actually like I said. I you used to do trees. And so we would have to-We would remove roots sometimes, and we would find out that the tree is like some- I mean it's like 100 yards away. And that's that tree is so far. Wow, it came all the way here to get water and itself could not move. And I think we need to be like the tree, right? We need to utilize. We need to grow our roots, we need to we need to expand on our foundation and it's easier said than done.  I'm not gonna lie. I've been going through a lot of hard times in the last two years. A lot mentally, uhm, you know I've had to work out at home. It's a lot harder to do that, but I've done it. I've had to change my diet because ,listen. Guys and Girls, I gained 20 pounds. The first you know, two years of the pandemic, I guess gained 20 pounds. And then recently I was contacted by a hospital and they said, “Hey, just prepare yourself, prepare yourself. We're getting it under control. You might-We're going to call on you as soon as its time go back in”. Man, I panicked because, oh, shoot, I, being Spider-Man, I need to be 167 pounds and really fit. And at the time, I was 188. And I freaked out, and I looked at my wife and I said, I said my wife's name is Kendall, I said, “Kendall, I'm jiggling in places I've never jiggled before. What do I do?” *laughs* So I kinda had a little meltdown there, but I had to grow my roots and I said it's time to buckle down. It's time to tap back in and I and I, she helped me with a meal plan and I got back to it and I made it happen. But the coronavirus has affected all of us and all I can say is we're still here.  Brian: Yeah. Ricky: Brian, Brian, you're still here, buddy. And here we are. And let's-it's part of the adventure and we can do it. Anything you wanna do, you can utilize this technology. You can ask and reach out to friends. There's ways to accomplish things. I think the world has, really adapted to this coronavirus thing and so- Brian: Yeah! Ricky: So, I hope that answers your question a little bit, sorry I went on a little bit of a rant there but- Brian: No, that's all right, Ricky! Ricky: Yeah *laughs* Brian: I asked a really good question.  Ricky: You did and it has, it is levels to it. There's layers like an onion and I and that's really deep. I like that. Brian: Yeah. And I know where you're coming because I've had-I recently lost three family members. Ricky: Yeah. And loss is extremely hard, especially when it hits so close to home, right? Brian: Yeah Ricky: If you would ask yourself one question, you know, and I've dealt with a tremendous loss myself, is how do you think those people, whether-wherever you believe that they are now in the spirit world or in heaven, whatever you believe, that you believe that you should ask yourself, you know, when times get hard is how do you think they would want you to honor their name?  Brian: Well, as soon as this Omicron is over my sister-in-law knows a guy that has a boat and we're going to dump his remains. Ricky: Oh, so you're gonna throw the ashes?  Brian: Yeah.  Ricky: Nice. So, you getting on a boat, it's something to look forward to.  Brian: Yeah! Ricky: Yeah, and living life is what it's all about.  Brian: Yeah Ricky: And it's OK to be sad. You gotta cry when it's time to cry when you feel like that. And it's OK to talk to others. It's OK to reach out to others. I'm sure you know that. And then when the time comes, and this is the hard part, It's like when you one day you'll find yourself smiling. You'll find yourself smiling, right? And then and then you'll go, “*gasp* I feel bad. I feel guilty because I've had so much loss. I actually feel guilty that I'm smiling and and my family member who passed didn't get to”. Or maybe another family member who's still dealing with the-going through the grief process and not cannot find this moment to smile. I want you to remember what I said when I said this like when you go “oh, wow, I'm smiling. I feel bad”, Remember when I'm saying this don't feel bad. Take that smile and put it in your, put it in your gas tank and and use it to smile again and get to the next spot in life and get to that boat. You have something to look forward to and then get to the next thing. That's like the boat and just keep going. And one day you'll be smiling all the time and you'll and you'll look at their picture and you'll smile and you'll realize this is how they wanted me to honor their name.  Brian: Nice meeting you, Ricky. Ricky: Nice to meet you too. I love your story! Stephanie: Would you be satisfied being in another profession?  Ricky: Will I be satisfied in a different profession or career? No, not now that I've done this. I was in many different professions prior to being Spider-Man so, I've known a lot before this and it's like once I started doing this... I just don't-I don't know how to- and that's that's part of the struggle. At some point I have to retire, right? And that just means hanging up the Spider-Man suit myself. But what I want to expand our organization to have other folks suit up. I want to get a a program together outside of just a background check and make sure everyone safe to visit, kids and all of that. I wanna put together like a very comprehensive program and like that people can actually go to like a schooling that I can teach the process and the science of visiting children as a suited character of whatever they choose, and teach, you know folks how to do that, who want to do the same thing. And I think it's important to know that you know, what I do and what my organization does is not from an entertainment standpoint. So, we don't visit-to do like-we don't do birthday parties or things like that. We only visit children who are children in need or even young adults or even. We've even visited adults and so I cannot think of another profession that's actually-that's actually something after seven years and being 38 years old I now think to myself like how hard and how hard it is, like emotionally and mentally at this point, I think myself, you know. From me, from you know, a wellness standpoint and energy standpoint and just how much I how much do I think I have to give personally out there to children. How? How long can I do this? And so it it's kind of daunting to think about. Like what would I do after this? Because I'm like shoot, this was everything. This is everything it takes. It really is my passion. So, I have not said this on social media. I have not like, told my parents even so, this is like-I'm sharing this with you guys. My wife and I have been talking about-I didn't go to college at all. I have a high school diploma and just a lot of life experience. My wife, you know, was saying she's going for her masters and she said, “Hey, maybe you should go for your masters and get and get it in child psych- I mean, child counseling”. And I think I really wanna do that because when the day comes to hang up the Spiderman suit, I don't wanna have to stop. You know, I already now have seven years of experience if you add six years of experience while I'm going to school out and hang up the Spider-Man suit and actually having degree. And be like approved as an actual, you know, therapist. I think that I would have so much to offer. At that point, you know, and I think that's what I wanna do. So, I'm kind of telling you guys here today that I'm kind of searching for a college that I'm gonna, then I'm gonna go to. And that's going to be what I'm going to do. So, it's not really like. I guess I'm not stopping this profession, so I can't see myself doing anything else. I just kind of want to elaborate on it because that's how special it is to me.  Stephanie: Awesome. Thanks for coming, Ricky! Ricky: No problem. Thanks for having me. Stephanie: Bye Ricky!  Brian: Bye, Ricky!  *Instrumental Spider-Man theme resumes* *Outro music by Artbeat Radio staff*  We hope you enjoyed this episode of Artbeat Radio. For more information, please go to our website. Ableartswork.org. Thanks for listening and tune in next time!  

I've known today's guest before I even ventured into the professional WordPress industry. In fact, it wasn't his themes that revolutionized my thinking, it was the checkout process. Brian Gardner launched a theme company using a payment portal and delivery tool called e-junkie. I just checked, they still exist, they were the Gumroad before Web 3.0 was even a thought in Web 2.0's mind. I couldn't believe it. Someone could zip up WordPress code, put it on a website, set a price, and someone could buy it?! I wanted to do the same thing. But until then, I had an agency to run so I used Revolution Themes, then Genesis, then to the whole StudioPress suite to make that happen. Fast forward, Gardner not only sold SP to WP Engine, but he left the gig shortly after, only to make a return with his latest product, Frost. Enjoy today's conversation with Brian Gardner, Principal Developer Advocate at WP Engine, creator of many things and many blogs. Find his newly redesigned blog at briandgardner.com. If you fancy supporting the show, buying me a digital coffee or joining my fantastic private Discord server, head on over to buymeacoffe.com/mattreport — I'll shout your name from the Twitter rooftops. Episode Transcript [00:00:00] Matt: so many folks who sit on the sidelines and Monday quarterback like me I see folks sell their business and , and they joined the team and I know in my heart that as a builder, as an entrepreneur, , they won't be there that long.[00:00:14] And they're there for a year. I think roughly you were at WP engine for a year after selling studio[00:00:20] Brian: press to them longer than that. But it sort of been to which in and of itself as a piece of conversation. Go ahead.[00:00:26] Matt: And then I saw you sort of leave P and L I was like, yep. I knew it. And there's nothing wrong with that because God that we have such a passion to build something, but I don't know of anyone who's who sells it to the company, leaves built something else, sells it back to the company and.[00:00:41] You're going for a hat trick question, mark.[00:00:44] Brian: No. No. And in fact, it's, it's funny, you are the only person who, with the exception of Bob Paul, Lacey, who had months ago made a kind of comment about that. You're the only person in this round when I got hired and when Frost was acquired to actually have.[00:01:01] Pointed that out. And of course I took that bait and this is why we're on the show today. But I talked to our PR team and I was like, look, this is just something that could be a thing that people might talk about or in this context. And surprisingly, and that's fine because it's really, it really was a news event.[00:01:16] This time around Yeah. I was just like, okay, what are the possible negative reactions? People might have to something like this. And I was like, that's about the only thing I can come up with. Well, people may point out that this happened and it, whatever, it's all good. Everyone's happy. You've built a[00:01:31] Matt: lot of stuff from digital products to courses, to eBooks, to blogs, to knit mail email lists and newsletters, like all things that were in some form or fashion, a business, a micro business.[00:01:43] When I saw you. Go back to a WP engine and they had acquired frost in my head. I started thinking, you know what, these, and this is my words, not yours. And I hope it doesn't offend you. But these micro products are almost like a fantastic calling card to get an awesome gig. Right. Ha had it not been you, but somebody else in this position, it could be like, I built an awesome little product.[00:02:11] And sometimes the weight of that is like, oh God, I got to S I get up market. I gotta sell it. I gotta promote it. I gotta support it. I got to take over the world. But then sometimes it's like, no, I can actually use this in place of a resume and get an awesome job somewhere. Is that a fair statement?[00:02:27] Brian: I would think so.[00:02:28] I don't think that that necessarily applies to everybody. We know right now, Matt, that the competitive landscape in WordPress is off the charts, especially in light of the behemoths. And, and we're one of them, right? WP, engine, GoDaddy, liquid web, all those it's really difficult to, and I'll conversely, make a counter argument here after this.[00:02:47] It's very difficult to like create and launch something new and have it be successful and widely adopted and so on now, conversely. That is also, if you have the idea, something really, really brilliant, that really solves a problem that catches a lot of users and stuff like that. Then it becomes because of aforementioned behemoths, a very interesting acquisition piece, right?[00:03:07] Go to liquid web. They've bought a lot of things lately. None of them have been, well, that's not true. Some have been larger, right. Eye themes and so on. And then some of them are just like smaller pieces that kind of fill a niche that allow them to use their sort of their. The abilities to reach and build and support from an infrastructure standpoint, a subset of people.[00:03:28] And so it can work. It can be, I wouldn't necessarily say that should be someone's business plan. Just given my tenure in the industry and the success I've had, it's been helpful to have that sort of be true.[00:03:41] Matt: Web hosts, obviously WP engine being one of the largest, if not the largest managed WordPress hosts in the industry GoDaddy liquid web.[00:03:49] I think a lot of folks myself included have sort of illustrated this picture, that well, we all kind of hypothesized that they're all looking to build and curate their own WordPress experience. Without giving away the secret meetings, maybe at WP engine and the secret sauce. Is that, is that something that you see coming down the pipe, maybe if not WP engine others, and maybe why they acquire fros and studio presses to sort of put these pieces in place.[00:04:19] So when you come to a WP engine, you experienced WordPress. You go to liquid web, you experience it that way. Is, is that something that you see as holding true in the year 20, 20[00:04:28] Brian: a hundred percent, a hundred percent. I think we see it on several levels. And even outside of the WordPress market, just the, sort of the consolidation, the platform building, go daddy sold domains back in the day.[00:04:39] Then they went to hosting. And then when they realized that the people who are buying those things would buy other things or are doing other things. Then all of a sudden they're an email marketing company and then, oh, WordPress explodes. Now we're going to be a WordPress hosting email, but like, like, and so yes, it makes sense.[00:04:54] And everyone's good at what they do. And when you really find what you're great at, then you sort of, I wouldn't say exploit, but then you really sort of double down on that by looking around in the space and saying, Hey, are there products that align with what we're trying to do? And is it, is it better for us to acquire those products?[00:05:10] Because it takes us less time to build. We can go right to market. We can, there's an existing audience as studio press was a huge audience that WP engine picked up and things like that. So yeah, I would say that's a fair state. Do you know,[00:05:21] Matt: there's in the news and the courting eh, in the week of this week, it's January 13th.[00:05:27] And we've seen over the last week, just a lot of discussion of paying contributors in the WordPress space. It's something that I've always thought of too, like going way back, like how. All these folks volunteer. They all have to go through the stress of like a theme developer. Like I was way, way, way back in the day, asking them why didn't this team get approved?[00:05:47] Why are you telling me I have to adjust this tab space in the functions file. Like it's so subjective. I should just be like, lots of stress. That folks don't really need to go through as volunteers now resurfacing again, how to get people paid. I think hosting companies are in a good position since.[00:06:06] Winning off of the back of WordPress, that there could be something there, more sponsored contributions more ways to it doesn't doesn't maybe always have to be about payments. It could be about featuring or highlighting or spotlighting folks because not everybody wants to make money off their volunteer ism with WordPress.[00:06:25] Is, are there any efforts or maybe. Contributing more to core with paid positions, let's say. Is that kind of a topic fall under a principal developer advocate at WP engine? Are those the kinds of things you hear in field for the company?[00:06:41] Brian: Yes. WP engine did not hire me so that I could go write code for WordPress.[00:06:45] Let's let's be clear about that. Damn they did. However, Hire me because of my expertise, my tenure in the field, my ability to understand the value that I could bring through the WordPress and WP engine sort of relationship. And as part of the leeway and the latitude I've been given to go do my thing. I brought on Nick Diego, who is an engineer.[00:07:07] And I learned V and he, he actually was supposed to backfill me with frost before the acquisition for us was going to be a side project. And because of my job, I brought in Nick to help sort of carry the load until I realized how much Nick and I aligned and what a resource he could be. And so I made the recommendation that we hire him as part of a developer relations so that we could do the very thing, right.[00:07:28] Part of his responsibilities and part of what I pitched was. There is an opportunity for us to sort of lead the space from a thought leadership perspective to help contribute code as he and I were both knee deep and code following along, the Gutenberg development where press 5.9 and stuff.[00:07:43] And I said, there's a lot of things that we're finding as we're working through building our thing that instead of just trying to like make a fix or a hack inside of our product Contribute that code or that patch or the fix, or the suggested way of doing things upstream back to WordPress.[00:07:59] And so a lot of the work that we're doing now is in fact core contribution stuff. Nick is also going to be doing some stuff with learn. And so w. WP engine just really understands the value of sort of the five for the future stuff. We've got several members committed to that. We just recently did it contribute to WP day where we really encouraged a lot of the folks in the community to do stuff like that.[00:08:20] And so I'm because like you said, I have one with WordPress for 15 years now. Right. It helped me leave my day job. Provides for my family and stuff like that. So I always have a place in my heart. It's easier now because I have the backing and support of WP engine and our resources to kind of make that move.[00:08:38] And I'm not getting any resistance from the higher ups there. They, I think they see the value and the contributions and sort of the, the PR that comes from that. There's some, there's some benefit there. But we just want to see WordPress get better. So our products and our customers experience.[00:08:54] Matt: How does frost fold into speaking of customer experience? How does frost fold into the. The existing suite of softwares that you sold them studio press. How does that merge? Is, are we still too early on, on those days for those, for those discussions, but how does it fold into the experience of WP engine users or potentially even studio press users?[00:09:15] So[00:09:15] Brian: this pet, let me give some context. So th this past summer after a sort of a failed attempt at doing something in the real estate space I came across an article. Written by Justin tablet on WP Tavern. And in that article, he was talking about block patterns and this is sort of as like the patterns kind of were hitting their infancy and they talk about there being a pattern directory and stuff like that.[00:09:38] I've obviously followed WordPress even while I was sort of away doing some things with real estate. I was like, okay, we sold studio press in part because I had no idea what the future of WordPress was going to be. Right. That was part of the reason we just didn't have the resources. We weren't sure we, we didn't want to compete.[00:09:52] And so we sold that.[00:09:58] We talked, I'm a creator. I'm always thinking I always want to build and do stuff like that. And so, so when I was on this article, I went over to the, the pattern repository or the directory and it, there was like a little tile of patterns and there's a button that said click to copy code or whatever, copied it.[00:10:13] I went into my blog, so I was doing something and I just hit paste. And like this thing showed up like this arrangement of design. And I was like, wait a second. I like that. That's like a theme agnostic design agnostic thing. And I think it was like, at that point was when sort of, it was very, very like original epiphany that kind of backed the frost project.[00:10:33] When I was like, wait a second. Now I understand where we're presses going. Right. These idea of blocks and styles and patterns and layouts that like kind of all these words being thrown around. And I was like, wait a second. So I can create these sections of. Website and in one click allow people to import them into a page.[00:10:50] And like, if you did that five or six times, you could essentially allow people to build a homepage and like literally 20 seconds. And I was like, okay, so that that's sorta was the, the original fire that was lit around frost. And so, because at the time it just made sense. I built frost originally as a Genesis child theme, just because right.[00:11:08] Part of the family. It was what I've always known. And so we launched a paid product called frost and it was a theme and it was a corresponding plugin that had all of the designs and the patterns and stuff like that. And then full site editing started to become more of a thing. And so I installed Gutenberg and realized.[00:11:25] There's going to be life after Genesis the framework, because a lot of what full site editing does is what Genesis did it handled markup and the ability to move things around. And so I said, well, Let's do what I did back in 2006, let's open up a bunch of blank files and start writing a theme from scratch.[00:11:43] And so current version of frost, probably three months ago was literally just sort of modeled after stuff I saw. I think it was on Carolina's full site editing or some tutorial on like, what is. Full site editing theme, look like it's got to have these files, the structure, it's a complete paradigm shift from where it was.[00:12:00] And I was like, let's just see if I could do this. And so I basically replicated the design of the Genesis child theme version of frost and started building out current version of frost. So that became a thing. And we launched it, started selling it. I was trying to extend a little bit of financial runway so that I could keep playing around with what I was doing.[00:12:17] So I reached out to Heather Bruner, our CEO just to say hi to check in and just see if she knew of anybody in the industry who might be looking for some contract work. And at the same time internally, they were talking about WordPress developer relations. And she says, funny, you should ask because we've been thinking of this position and I don't know.[00:12:34] That there's anybody better suited for it than you, which is the intersection of what I told her design community and WordPress. And so, we worked out something that made a lot of sense at the time frost was on the outside which I felt conflicted about because a lot of the work I was going to be doing was around WordPress and building and stuff like that.[00:12:50] And so, ultimately I made the recommendation that we just bring it into. Into the fold so that I can work on it. Full-time we can use that as a way to demonstrate where WordPress is going to teach folks in the community what's going on. And so on.[00:13:02] Matt: So it doesn't detach from you. It's not like, okay, now it's gone into the abyss of WP engine.[00:13:07] My[00:13:07] Brian: is not. And Nick and my F yeah, no, it's under our full control. It's a developer relations project.[00:13:13] Matt: Yeah. Did you, when you sat back, did you have those same feelings of okay. I going to do this again. I have to build, well, you already have a headstart with your brand and recognition and followers and all that stuff.[00:13:26] But even that, I'm sure you're still like, oh God, I gotta, I gotta do this all over again. I gotta set up a checkout system. I have to set up a licensing system. I, I have to market this thing. I gotta support. And I[00:13:36] Brian: gotta do all this stuff a hundred percent.[00:13:38] It was exciting just because it had been since studio press formed way back in the day where I was really fully in control, as we merged into Copyblogger in 2008 or nine, and then for like 10 or 12 years, we had sort of the infrastructure of the company and stuff like that.[00:13:52] So I didn't have to like, bear that load independently. As I had at the beginning of studio press. And so like, it's a different space than it was back then. And, and thankfully I have the cloud, the email lists sort of the reach, the exposure to WordPress. So it made sense. It didn't quite hit the way I was hoping that a studio press did back in the day, but again, we're in different times and that's okay.[00:14:16] But you know, like at the end of the day, what it came down to was for the last 15 years I've been doing sort of the self-employment entrepreneur things start up, you feel sort of a thing. And even like early on into frost, I was like, this is going to be another long thing and that's fine. I like this kind of thing.[00:14:33] And I think it would have done well on its own. But I was just ready. I was ready for, and I wrote about this on a torque article about seasons change. I was just ready to finally work for somebody else to, to have access to team members, to be fully supported, to get good benefits, pay, like all of those things.[00:14:48] I just, I needed a mental break and, I foresee this break being of several years, not just like a couple months, so[00:14:54] Matt: you said, I feel like frost didn't hit. Maybe like studio press fell, but different times, is that a gut feeling?[00:15:02] Did you measure it , instinctually as somebody who's launched so many things, did you just kind of know like, okay. I'm not feeling that momentum as I maybe did 10 years ago, Yeah.[00:15:13] Brian: Like when you sell something, when you build something and sell something, like you kind of get into this mindset, like, oh, I could do it again.[00:15:19] Right. Once lucky, twice. Good. And, and had I stuck with it, like just me and or Nick at that time, it would have taken probably some time to really get it to a point where it was humming WordPress itself sorta was getting in the way, because it just, it wasn't delivering things that we were looking forward to using and stuff like that.[00:15:35] So it was part gut. , okay, this isn't going to make me a hundred million dollars. Like maybe even a hundred dollars would be great sort of a thing. But I just, as like, like I wanted, I wanted power behind it, not just to have to rely on me. And like I said, I was ready, it was serendipitous me reaching out to Heather, her coming back to me, presenting the offer.[00:15:55] And it's kind of like, she was like, basically let you do what you want to be doing and what you've been doing for 15 years, just under the guise of WP engine and, having gone through the acquisition and the transition for the year afterwards. I had a ton of insight into their culture. And that made it a really easy decision to make, because that was not, is this a company I want to work for?[00:16:15] Cause the answer is hell yeah, I knew, I know how the cultures there. I think a lot of people on the outside don't understand how, how cool and great it is, especially we're 1200 strong. But I was like, wow, this is like almost a dream.[00:16:26] Matt: Yeah. I remember people talking about WP engine, just like when, when they hit 400 people, they, wow.[00:16:32] Like, that's amazing. And now it's like triple and probably just chasing automatic, which I, I think just hit the 2000 mark or just under 2000. So, it's pretty amazing to see like pure. Play companies. Because again, WP engine is only doing WordPress, right? You haven't introduced at other CMS yet.[00:16:50] Right? There's nothing they're getting into headless that might introduce some stuff that might be outside of the realm of WordPress, but you're certainly not hosting Drupal anytime soon,[00:16:59] Brian: correct? Correct.[00:17:01] Matt: That's awesome. Can we chat about the real estate endeavor for a moment? You said it fair.[00:17:09] Anything that you can point to as to maybe why wrong time global pandemic, what was going on with that, with that real estate endeavor of yours. And why did you decide to just exit it?[00:17:21] Brian: So I've always been interested in real estate. We've bought and sold houses over the years, probably 10 over the last 20 years and an agent press, which you may remember was a thing that we did a copy of.[00:17:31] For a few years. So we dabbled in it and I realized just how bad design and marketing is in that space. Generally speaking compass being the exception and maybe a few others. And so I was like, okay, well I have, through the years, I've made several relationships with people sort of higher up in the real estate industry.[00:17:50] So I knew I'd kind of have like an easy launch pad. I get design. I could build it on a WordPress. I've got some spokespeople people who could sort of be advisers to the company who are, experiencing Zillow and all that kind of stuff. And then the pandemic hit and what happened really was probably a couple of things.[00:18:04] One, it probably just wasn't built in packaged the right way. But number two real estate agents got really, really busy because of the housing. They, they, everyone, you would follow it. Oh, I have 36 offers today. Like nobody has time or at the time they didn't feel the need to have a website because their business was exploding.[00:18:24] I don't have time for a website I'm standing in line at open houses. Like, and the sad thing is like in six months or a year, whenever the housing market comes back to earth. Done dental need it, then they'll be like, oh crap. Cause now that you've got a bunch of new agents, people who jumped into the market because of all of what was going on.[00:18:41] So then like the, the demand will go down, but like the supply of agents then is there. And so there's more competition, but I was like, I, I don't have time to weather, all of that. And then frost kind of came up and, things with agent engine, just kind of, weren't really doing its thing. And I was like, I was okay with that.[00:18:55] It was a good college try[00:18:57] Matt: because it was more like it was more agency. Experience than just a product, right? Cause[00:19:02] Brian: you were, I know it was more product based. It was more, we call it digital spaces where we sort of built Jason Schuler of WordPress fame sort of built this profile management system, which I thought was really gonna take off with like associations or, brokerages that had teams of people that wanted to sort of showcase them individually.[00:19:21] Like the idea on paper was really, really good. I think we just poorly executed at the wrong time. So. But I'm okay with that. Like lessons learned, right. We're here where we are.[00:19:29] Matt: Yeah. Yeah. I tell you it's what an interesting time, because you had real estate agents who, you know, probably whatever, maybe not immediate at the pandemic hitting, but a couple months in just being just the fish were jumping into the boat.[00:19:44] You didn't even have to cast a line in they're like website. I don't have time for a website, but then. This whole range at an opposite end of an industry restaurants who are like, oh, we never launched that website. And now we have to do takeout a hundred percent of the time. I know I had, I haven't been in the, my data.[00:20:04] I, my dad runs the agency. I'm well beyond that at th at this point, but it still runs. And I had tons of people calling me at that moment. Literally watching the news restaurants are shutting down, calling me up. Like, I need that website, Matt. , where, where are you? Five 10 years ago when we were telling you to do this a crazy, crazy time for web and for people who haven't caught up at that point.[00:20:26] When I look at. You were saying before, like one of your aha moments with Gutenberg was I copied and pasted and it was kind of like, wow, I can see where the vision is going. Matt Mullenweg could always talk, has always talked about WordPress being like the operating system of the web. That was something that was always interesting to me is what really kept me motivated with WordPress.[00:20:48] I now see this hearing him say that Gutenberg is bigger than WordPress, sort of, kind of nonchalantly in the state of the word. I kind of see maybe that same thing of fusing, like the operating system with code. So Genesis studio press remember back in the day, you're building it all through the functions.[00:21:06] PHP file. I can imagine a world where now you're just copy pasting snippets of code, like the query blocks and stuff like that. Pre pre queried for you. Like all the codes there. Boom, copy paste it. And now I'm developing air quotes to the listener. Who's only listening to audio. Developing by copying pasting snippets of code and dropping blocks in do you have any other future out look on, on where Gutenberg might be going?[00:21:31] Maybe things you might be looking at to build into Gutenberg. Into frost that would push the boundaries.[00:21:38] Brian: Nothing monumental. I We're just obviously following along where WordPress is going, this it's taken us three years to get here. We're working through this now full site editing thing, which I th I think is still gonna take some time.[00:21:50] Right. Which we've already seen the delay from December to January. And I was in full support of that. Cause I didn't think it was going to be ready and I'm more than okay. Especially now that I don't have to. Like obsess over building a product and like put food on the table based on what I sell. Now it's like kind of a kickback and just follow along as it's happening.[00:22:09] And, Nick and I are on get hub and select daily, oh, do you see this commit? Do you see this change? And I'll be honest. I don't know that there are many people in the group of people who are at the forefront of what's going on with WordPress. Then he and I right now, because we are so. We practically have alerts going off, in our own heads.[00:22:27] I just posted 30 seconds ago. How would I see that? Because we, we love it so much. We, we absolutely are infatuated. We call ourselves black editor, fanboys. Like it's, it's kinda crazy and almost embarrassing the extent, but 15 years later, I'm still in love with WordPress. The way that I was and even more so now, because I'm starting to see.[00:22:46] WordPress itself, starting to solve the problems that we tried to solve back in the day with like magazine style themes and stuff like that. It's so easy to want to still primarily build your own thing and around it. And, we're presses now making it so easy with where it's going. It's not perfect and never will be, but they're doing things in a way that make it really easy for people like me to sort of identify where the opportunities are.[00:23:10] And especially those who love design. I could do so much with just WordPress core and a simple theme so much. And that's how I felt back when I launched revolutions. Like, Hey.[00:23:20] Matt: And as a product owner and business owner, software developer, you kind of get that this stuff iterates over time.[00:23:28] And when Gutenberg first launched and everyone just like flipped the table, which, I was one of those folks too, but it was more about how, it was being communicated, how it was being like, whatever the Pictet at the time and enrolled that it had nothing to do about. You know the features of Gutenberg.[00:23:43] Although I still struggle with trying to like grab a block and put it in between two columns is like still a thing that I have to like wrestle and throw my computer with. I always knew like, Hey, this thing's going to get better.[00:23:54] It's just version 0.0 0, 0 1 that we're at like, don't we all like, there's so many software people in this space. Why was everybody losing their mind? That it wasn't good enough yet? This software's never good enough day one. It always gets better over time. Any thoughts on like the iteration of Gutenberg or how you looked at the launch of Gutenberg when that.[00:24:12] Yeah,[00:24:12] Brian: I was the same way. I wasn't sure it was very clunky. I think it kind of got rushed out back in that, that one December. But I think it had to be, I at some point we met that's written before about 1.0 and shipping and iterating and stuff like that. And so I think it was a necessary evil I think Gutenberg, the plugin being a thing now sort of, kind of pulls up.[00:24:30] From the core and like the general consumer standpoint, like seeing these sort of iterations and breaking changes and things like that, they've put it in the plugin, which, which is helpful because it allows people who are developing for WordPress to see what's coming to know how to address it. When it looked like a lot of people, when 5.9 launches, they'll be like, oh, w what's changed since 5.8.[00:24:50] Oh, my God, if you even knew, like so much has changed, but like, we'll be ready for it. Like frost will be 100% production ready when five, it is already, but you know, when 5.9 ships will be fully taken advantage of all the things. Cause we've been on the Gutenberg daily trail ever since then.[00:25:06] But speaking of Sarah McLaughlin, one of the 11 tweets I've favorited in my 15 years of Twitter was her response. She did ask me anything and I said, what's your favorite quote? And she quoted Gandhi's be the change you want to see in the world. And , obviously that that's sort of ubiquitous and we see it all the time.[00:25:21] But when it comes to WordPress and the direction, and this is sort of like Nick and my north star, which is, oh, this isn't working, we're frustrated with how this works. Well, you could do two things. You could piss about it and like, go on Twitter and talk about how bad it is. Or you can roll up your sleeves and figure out how to make it better.[00:25:36] And that is a lot of what we're doing. With developer relations at WP engine, we're teaming up with people on automatic side where other people's sides, rich Taylor is a good friend and we're trying to figure out how do we, universalize some things and just like really be that change.[00:25:50] And, we hope not only will that make WordPress better, maybe some of the people on the sidelines, these Monday quarterbacks as you call them, maybe it'll say, Hey, maybe there's something to like, Approach that they're taking, and maybe it's less about, dogging the platform that helped us win and helping it when, when, when for others and stuff like that.[00:26:09] Matt: Yeah. I can tell you that the one thing that Sort of afraid of is just the the pollution, I guess, of the block directory and what that potentially leads to in a customers. I say customer, I'm thinking I have agency on my mind, but thinking of you logging into somebody's website, who's not a WordPress aficionado.[00:26:28] And then. You have a thousand plugins installed. What's wrong with you? I can see that same thing happening with like the block directory, especially some of the things I've already starting to see where product companies are starting to inject their icon into like a, I don't know. I'll call the task bar.[00:26:46] I don't know what the official WordPress name is for that tray that sits above the editor where you can expand in different. And then, like I w installed a couple of themes the other day on one of my test sites. And it was just like, it looked like the bottom of my windows machine. Like all these icons, , oh, crazy.[00:27:01] We go again. , I don't want this. I can see some people doing like animated gifts now. And , oh, come on. , this is bad enough. Notifications already bad enough. Those types of things that you, you hope to maybe standard eyes across other product companies, is there like an official place you start to document this kind of thing to get everybody together or in a perfect world.[00:27:20] Is there a place you'd like to have for folks to rally around these types of things?[00:27:26] Brian: A good question. W we are guilty of that. Nick, Nick built a black pattern Explorer plugin. That adds a very I think we just recycled one of the core icon components that are part of WordPress. So again, we're not trying to do anything proprietary, so, we've created.[00:27:41] Block pattern, explore that very much is maybe maybe inspired what WordPress itself did in core. And we're looking to sort of expand on that and use that sort of in an experimental sense to help inform how things work, how it can be used, and then to take the things that we're building and push them upstream into WordPress, via pull requests.[00:28:01] And so, we are trying to, again, it's easy because for us, it's not a product that will. WP engine over any kind of metric. Like this was sort of brought in with the intent of, it's not gonna make any money, just use this to help go and grow and do all these things. And so, we've always back when Nathan and I Nathan Rice and I built Genesis, like we always sort of defaulted to WordPress core practices and standards and design and UX and all that kind of stuff.[00:28:28] And so. It's just an eight and eight at this point, for whatever we're working on to not be like a blinking Marquis across an admin notice thing. But I understand that it happens and why it happens. And, I think WordPress adding more capabilities to the core software, kind of. To be perfectly honest, that it knocks out the need for a lot of things.[00:28:49] Some of the black libraries that exist and things like that, like we're pressing now has that in core. So like, I'm hoping to, like, as we're press gets stronger with functionality that some of the needs to, to like to do what you said, won't be there. And I don't know if I answers the question, but are you happy to see the customized.[00:29:08] 1000%. I, I hated it from day one. I hated it from day one. I know we did some stuff with it and studio press. I was never a part of that. Cause I refused I've used it for a few things like custom CSS when I was in an emergency or, header, photo, script kind of stuff. But like I hated it. I never liked it.[00:29:27] I'm thrilled.[00:29:28] Matt: Yeah. . Amazing times, Ryan, what would help you and your role at WP engine call to action? Where can folks find you to connect with you to help the cause to join you at WP engine?[00:29:41] Anything or anywhere you want to point people[00:29:42] Brian: to a yes, the Twitter is probably the place that I'm most I'm most active and most available. At B Gardner, you could put that in the show notes, if you want. Tweet me, follow me, DME, whatever. Twitter is usually where we hang out. I'm on Instagram, that's more personal Starbucks shots and baseball things.[00:30:00] So that's less interesting to people in the space might not be tweeting about baseball. Yeah, no kidding. I'm on LinkedIn and I think it's B Gardner 27 and I was late to that party, so I didn't get the handle I wanted, but but Twitter is the place. I'm, periodically dunking around@briangardner.com actually working on a new design, kind of using that as a sandbox.[00:30:19] Yes. Oops. I'm doing it again was always sort of the tweet when you saw that tweet, I redesigned it. And so people have, I've trained people to never, ever think that there's going to be the same design as, as was there the last time, but that that's how products get built because I use my own site as a sandbox.[00:30:34] So, but yeah, Twitter is the best place. Obviously or for WP engine, we're always looking to build our team, not necessarily developer relations quite yet, but The Genesis team is hiring for an engineering person. And just whether it's support. I We see a number of people come up through the Genesis community who are now working there, lots of rock stars.[00:30:52] Like it's just a great place. So, if you're a WordPress person and you're looking for a job, hit me up on Twitter and I'll see if there's something that's Always hiring great people. I think David Vogel, Paul once said we don't hire something to the effect of, we don't hire qualified people. We've hired great people.[00:31:07] Like it kinda just works itself out that way. So, or we don't hire out. I can't remember what he said. I don't, I don't wanna mess up that quick, but it was really, really good. And I was like, wow, that's really cool. So quote here[00:31:17] Matt: pretty much. My report.com maryport.com/subscribe. Join the mailing list.[00:31:22] Number one way to stay connected. If you want to support independent WordPress content like. Buy me a coffee.com/maryport. Not only do you support the show, you can join as a member for $79 a year. Get access to the private discord and join our Merry band of WordPress Newsies, which we chat about. The WordPress news that goes out every Wednesday.[00:31:41] Five minutes is your favorite five minutes of WordPress or on the WP minute.com. Check it out. Join the. Get your name heard in the credits of the show. Talk about WordPress news. That's fun stuff. Thanks for hanging out today, Brian. I'll see everyone else in the next episode. ★ Support this podcast ★

About BrianBrian is an accomplished dealmaker with experience ranging from developer platforms to mobile services. Before InfluxData, Brian led business development at Twilio. Joining at just thirty-five employees, he built over 150 partnerships globally from the company's infancy through its IPO in 2016. He led the company's international expansion, hiring its first teams in Europe, Asia, and Latin America. Prior to Twilio Brian was VP of Business Development at Clearwire and held management roles at Amp'd Mobile, Kivera, and PlaceWare.Links:InfluxData: https://www.influxdata.com TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by my friends at ThinkstCanary. Most companies find out way too late that they've been breached. ThinksCanary changes this and I love how they do it. Deploy canaries and canary tokens in minutes and then forget about them. What's great is the attackers tip their hand by touching them, giving you one alert, when it matters. I use it myself and I only remember this when I get the weekly update with a “we're still here, so you're aware” from them. It's glorious! There is zero admin overhead  to this, there are effectively no false positives unless I do something foolish. Canaries are deployed and loved on all seven continents. You can check out what people are saying at canary.love. And, their Kub config canary token is new and completely free as well. You can do an awful lot without paying them a dime, which is one of the things I love about them. It is useful stuff and not an, “ohh, I wish I had money.” It is speculator! Take a look; that's canary.love because it's genuinely rare to find a security product that people talk about in terms of love. It really is a unique thing to see. Canary.love. Thank you to ThinkstCanary for their support of my ridiculous, ridiculous nonsense.   Corey: Writing ad copy to fit into a 30 second slot is hard, but if anyone can do it the folks at Quali can. Just like their Torque infrastructure automation platform can deliver complex application environments anytime, anywhere, in just seconds instead of hours, days or weeks. Visit Qtorque.io today and learn how you can spin up application environments in about the same amount of time it took you to listen to this ad.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. This promoted guest episode is brought to us by our friends at InfluxData. And my guest is titled as the Chief Marketing Officer at InfluxData, and I don't even care because his bio has something absolutely fascinating that I want to address instead. Brian Mullen is an accomplished dealmaker is how the bio starts. And so many of us spend time negotiating deals, but so few people describe ourselves in that way. First, Brian, thank you for joining us. And secondly, what's up with that?Brian: [laugh]. Well, thanks, Corey, very excited to be here. And yes, dealmaker; I guess that would be apropos. How did I get into marketing? Well, a lot of my career is spent in business development, and so I think that's where the dealmaker part comes from.Several different roles, including my first role at Influx—when I joined Influx—was in business development and partnerships. And so, prior to coming to Influx, I spent many years building out the business development team at Twilio, growing that up, and we did a lot of deals with carriers, with Cloud partners, with all kinds of different partners; you name it, we worked with them. And then moving into Influx, joined in an BD capacity here and had a couple different roles that eventually evolved to Chief Marketing Officer. But  that's where the dealmaker comes from. I like to do deals, it's always nice to have one on the side   in whatever capacity you're working in, it's nice to have a deal or two working on the side. It kind of keeps you fresh.Corey: It's fun because people think, “Oh, a deal. You're thinking of mergers and acquisitions, and how hard could that be? You just show up with a bag of money and give it to people and then you have a deal closed.” And oh, if only it were that simple. Every client engagement we have on the consulting side has been a negotiation back and forth, and the idea is to ideally get everyone to the point where they're happy, but honestly, if everyone's slightly unhappy but can live with the result, we'll take that too.And as people go through their own careers it's, you're always trying to make a deal in some form: when you try to get a project approved, or you're trying to get resources thrown at something—by which I generally mean money, not people, though people, too—it's something that isn't necessarily clearly understood or discussed very often, despite the fact that half of what I do is negotiating with AWS on behalf of clients for better contractual terms. The thing that I think takes people by surprise the most is that dealmaking is almost never about pounding the table, being angry, and walking out, like you read the world's worst guide to buying a car or something. It's about finding the win for everyone. At least that's the way I've always approached it.Brian: That's a good point. And actually that wording that you described of finding a win for everybody, that's how I always thought about it. I think about it as first of all, you're trying to understand what the other party—and it could be an individual, it could be a company, it could be a group of companies, sometimes—you're trying to understand what their goals are, what their agenda is and see how that matches with your own; sometimes they're opposing, sometimes they're overlapping. And then everyone has to have some perceived win  in a deal. And it's not competitively; it's more like you just have to have value, that is kind of what the win is – having value in that deal.And so that's the way I always approached it. And doing deals, whether you're in BD or sales, or if you're working with vendors and you're in a different functional role, sometimes it's not even commercial, it's just about aligning resources, perhaps. Our deal might be that you and I are both going to put a collective effort into building something or taking something to market. In another scenario might be like, I'm going to pay for this service that you're delivering, or vice versa. Or we're going to go and bring two revenue-generating products together and take them to market. Whatever it might be, it doesn't matter so much what the mechanics are of the deal, but it's usually about aligning those agendas and in having someone get utility, get value on the other side.Corey: I think that people lose sight of the fact as well, that when you're talking about a service provider—and let's be clear, InfluxData has launched a cloud platform that we'll talk about in a minute—this is not the one-off transactional relationship; once the deal is signed, you've got to work with these people. When they host parts of your production infrastructure, whether you want to admit it or not they're your partner more so than they are your vendor. It has to be an ongoing relationship that people are, if they at least aren't thrilled with it, can at least be happy enough to live with, otherwise it just winds up with this growing sense of resentment and it just sort of leads nowhere.Brian: Yeah, there really is no deal moment. Yes, people sign agreements with companies, but that's just the very beginning. Your relationship evolves from there. We're delivering a product, we're delivering this platform that handles time-series data to our customers, and we're asking them to trust us with their product that they're taking out to market. They're asking us to handle their data and to deliver service to them that they're turning into their production applications. And so it's a big responsibility. And so we care about the relationship with our customers to continue that.Corey: So, I first really became aware of time-series data a few years back during a re:Invent keynote when they pre-announced Timestream, which took entirely too long to come to market. Okay, great. So, you're talking about time-series data. Can you explain what that means in simple terms? And I learned over the next eight minutes that they were talking about it, that no, no, they couldn't. I wound up more confused by the end of the announcement than I was at the beginning.So, assuming that I have the same respect for databases as you would expect for someone whose favorite data store is Route 53—because you can misuse it as a beautiful database—what is time-series data and why does it matter in 2021?Brian: Sure, it's a good question. And I was there in that audience as well that day. So, we think of time-series data as really any type of data that's stamped in time, in some way. It could be every hour, every minute, every second, every half second, whatever. But more specifically, it's any type of data that is generated by some source—and that could be a sensor sources within systems or an actual application—and these things change over time, and then therefore, stamped in time in some way.They can come at different frequencies, like I said, from nanoseconds to seconds, or minutes and hours, but the most important thing is that they usually trigger a workflow, trigger some sort of action. And so that's really what our platform is about. It allows people to handle this type of data and then work with it from there in their applications, trigger new workflows, et cetera. Because the historical context of what happens is super important.And when we talk about sources, it could be really many things. It could be in physical spaces, and we have a lot of IoT types of customers and use cases. And those are things like devices and sensors on the factory floor, out in the field, it's on a vehicle. It's even in space, believe it or not. There are customers that are using us on satellites.And then it can also be sources from within software, applications, and infrastructure, things like VMs, and containers, and microservices, all emitting time-series data. And it could be applications like crypto, or financial, or stock market, agricultural type of applications that are themselves as applications emitting data. So, you think about all these sources that are out there from the physical world to the virtual world, and they're all generating time-series data, and our platform is really specially designed to handle that kind of data. And we can get into some details of what exactly that means, but that's really why we're here. That's what time-series is all about.Corey: And this is the inherent challenge I think we're seeing across the entire industry slash ecosystem. I mean, this is airing during re:Invent week, but at the time we are recording this, we have not yet seen the Tuesday keynote that Adam Selipsky will take to the stage, and no doubt, render the stat I'm about to throw at you completely obsolete. But depending on how you count them, there's somewhere between 13 and 15 managed database or database-like services today that AWS offers. And they never turn things off and they're always releasing new things, supposedly on behalf of customers; in practice because someone somewhere wants to get promoted by launching a new service; good for them. Godspeed.If we look into the uncertain future, at some point, someone's job is going to be disambiguating between the 40 different managed database services that AWS offers and picking the one that works. What differentiates time-series from—let's just start with an easy one—something like MySQL or Postgres—or ‘Postgres-squeal' is how I insist on pronouncing that one. Let's stay away from things like Neptune because no one knows what a social graph database is and I assure you, you almost certainly don't need one. Where does something like Influx work in a way that, “Huh. Running this on MySQL is really starting to suck.”Brian: When and why is it time to consider a specialized tool. And in fact, that's actually what we see a lot with our customers is coming to us around that time when a time-series is a problem to solve for them is reaching the point where they really need a specialized tool that's kind of built for that. And so one way to look at that is really just to think about time-series in general as a type of data. It's rapidly rising. It's the fastest growing data category out there right now.And the reason for that is it's being driven by two big macro trends. One is the explosion of all these applications and services running in the cloud. They're expanding horizontally, they're running in more regions, they're in many cases running on multiple clouds, and so it's just getting big—the workloads are getting bigger and bigger. And those are emitting time-series data. And then simultaneously, you have this  growth of all these devices and sensors that are coming online out in the real world: batteries, and temperature gauges, and all kinds of stuff, both new and old, that is coming online, and those sources are generating a lot of time-series data.So typically, we're in a moment now, where a lot of developers are faced with this massive growth of time-series data. And if you think about some data set that you have, that you're putting into some kind of traditional database, now add the component of time as a multiplier by all the data you have. Instead of that one data, that one metric, you're now looking at doing that every one second in perpetuity. And so it's just an order of magnitude more data that you're dealing with. And then you also have this notion of—when you have that magnitude of data, you have fidelity, you're taking a lot of it in at the same time, I mean, very quickly, so you have  batch or stream data coming in at super high volume, and you may need that for a few minutes or a few hours or days, but maybe you don't need it for months and years.And so you'd maybe dropped down to kind of a lower fidelity for the longer-term. But you really have this  toggling back and forth of the high fidelity and low fidelity, all coming at you at pretty high volume. And so typically what happens is, is when the workloads get big enough, the legacy tools, they're just not equipped to do it. And a developer—if they have a small set of time-series they're dealing with, what is the first thing they're going to do? They're going to look around and be like, “Hey, what do I have here? Oh, I've got Mongo over here. I've got Splunk, or I've got this old relational database, I can put it in.”And that's typically what they'll do, and that works fine until it doesn't. And then that's when they come around looking for a specialized tool. So, we really sit in Influx and, frankly, other time-series products really do sit at that point where people are considering a specialized tool just because the workload has gotten such that it requires that.Corey: Yeah. Taking a look at most of the offerings in the space; anything that winds up charging anything more than a very tiny fraction of a penny—from what you're describing—is going to quickly become non-economical, where it's, “Oh, we're going to charge you”—like using S3: every, I think, 1000 writes cost a penny—“Oh, we're just going to use S3 for this.” Well, at some of these data volumes, that means that your request charge on S3 is very quickly going to become the largest single line item in your bill, which is nothing short of impressive in a lot of cases, but it also probably means that you've taken a very specific tool—like an iPad—and tried to use it as something else—like a hammer—and no one's particularly happy with that outcome.Brian: Yeah. First of all, having usage-based pricing is really important. We think about it as allowing people to have the full version of the product without a major commitment, and be using it in test scenarios and then later in the very early production scenarios. But as a principle, it's important for people that just signed up two hours ago using your product are basically using the same full product that the biggest customers that you have are using that are paying many, many thousands or tens of thousands per month. And so the way to do that is to offer usage-based pricing and not force people to commit to something before they're ready to do it.And so there's ways to unlock lower pricing, and we, like a lot of companies, offer annual pricing and we have a sales team that worked with folks to basically draw down their unit costs on the use of the platform once they kind of get comfortable with their workload. So, there's definitely avenues to get lower price, and we're believers in that. And we also want to, from a product development perspective, try to make the product more efficient. And so we basically are trying to drive down the costs through efficiencies in the product: make it run faster, make queries take less time, and also ship products on top of it that require developers to write less code themselves, kind of, do more of the work for them.Corey: One of the things I find particularly compelling about what you've done is it is an open-source project. If I want to go ahead and run some time-series experiments myself, I can spin it up anywhere I want and run it however I see fit. Now, at some point, if I'm doing this for anything more than, “Oh, let's see how I can misuse this today,” I probably want to at least consider letting someone who's better at running these things than I am take it over. And as I'm looking through your customer list, the thing that strikes me is how none of these things are quite like the other. We're talking about companies like Hulu is probably not using it the same way as Capital One is, at least I certainly hope not. You have Texas Instruments; you also have Adobe. And it sort of runs an entire gamut of none of these companies quite look alike; I have to imagine their use cases are also somewhat varied, too.Brian: Yeah, that's right. And we really do see as a platform, and with time-series being the common problem that people are looking to solve, we see this pretty broad set of use cases and customer types. And we have some more traditional customers like the Cisco's and the IBM's of the world, and then some  relatively new folks like Tesla and Hulu and others that are a little bit more recent. But they're all trying to solve the same fundamental problem with time-series, which is “How can I handle it in an efficient way and make use of it meaningfully in my applications and services?”And we were talking earlier about having some sources of time-series data being in, kind of a virtual space, like in infrastructure and software, and then some being in physical space, like in devices and sensors out in the real world. So, we have breadth in that way, too. We have folks who are building big software observability infrastructure solutions on us, and we also have people that are pulling data off of the devices on a solar panel that's sitting on a house in the emerging world, right? So, you have basically these two far ends of the spectrum, but all using this specialized tool to handle the time-series data that they're generating.Corey: It seems to me that for most of these use cases and the way you describe it, it's more about the overall shape of the data when we're talking about time-series more so than it is any particular data point in isolation. Is that accurate, or are there cases where that is very much not the case?Brian: I think that's accurate. What people are mostly trying to understand is context for what's happening. And so it's not necessarily—to your point—not searching for one specific data point or moment, but it's really understanding context for some general state that has changed or some trend that has emerged, whatever that might be, and then making sense of that, and then taking action on that. And taking an action could mean a couple of different things, too. It could be in an observability sense, where somebody in  an operator type of mode where they're looking at dashboards and paying attention to  infrastructure that's running and then need to take some sort of action based on that. It also, in many cases, is automated in some way: it's either some series of automated responses to some state that is reached that is visible in the data, or is actually kicking off some new series of tasks or actions inside of an application based on what is occurring and shown by the time-series data.Corey: You know what doesn't add to your AWS bill? Free developer security from Snyk. Snyk is a frictionless security platform that meets developers where they are, finding and fixing vulnerabilities right from the CLI, IDEs, repos, and pipelines. And Snyk integrates seamlessly with AWS offerings like CodePipeline, EKS, ECR, and oh so much more.Secure with Snyk and save some loot. Learn more at snyk.io/scream. That's S-N-Y-K-dot-I-O/screamCorey: So, we've talked about, you have an open-source product, which is the sort of thing that most people listening to this should have a vague idea of, “Oh, that means I can go on GitHub and download it and start using it, if it's not already in my package manager.” Great. You also have the enterprise offering, which is more or less, I presume, a supported distribution of this—for lack of a better term—that you then wind up providing blessed configurations thereof and helping run support for that—for companies that want to run it on-prem. Is that directionally accurate, or am I grossly mischaracterizing [laugh] what your enterprise offering is?Brian: Directionally accurate, of course. You could have a great job in marketing. I really think you could.Corey: Oh, you know, I would argue, on some level, I probably do. The challenge I have is that I keep conflating marketing with spectacle and that leads down to really unfortunate, weird places. But one additional area, which is relatively recent since the last time I spoke with Paul—one of the cofounders of your company—on this show is InfluxDB Cloud, which is one of those, “Oh, let me see if I look—if I'm right.” And sure enough, yeah, you wind up managing the infrastructure for us and it becomes a pay-per consumption model the way that most cloud service providers do, without the really obnoxious hidden 15 levels of billing dimensions.Brian: Yes, we are trying to bring the transparency back. But yes, you're correct. We have open-source and we have—it's very popular—we have over 500,000-plus instances of that deployed globally today in the community. And that's typically very common for developers to get started using the open-source, easily recognizable, it's been out for a long time, and so many people start the journey there.And then we have InfluxDB Enterprise, which it's actually a clustered version of InfluxDB open-source. So, it allows you to basically handle in an environment that you want to manage yourself, you manage a cluster and scale it out and handle ever-increasing workloads and have things like redundancy and replication, et cetera. But that's really specifically for people who want to deploy and operate the software themselves, which is a good set of people; we have a lot of folks who have done that. But one of the areas that's a little bit more recent is InfluxDB Cloud, which is really, for folks who don't want to have anything to do with the management; they really just want to use it as a service, send their data in—Corey: Yeah, give me an API endpoint, and I want you to worry about the care, and the feeding, and the waking up at two in the morning when a disk starts filling up. Yeah, that is the best kind of problem from my perspective: someone else's.Brian: Exactly. That's our job. And increasingly, we've seen folks gravitate to that. We've got a lot of folks have signed up on this product since it launched in 2019, and it's really increasingly where they begin their journey, maybe not even going to the open-source just going directly to this because it's relatively simple to get started.It's priced based on usage. People pay for three vectors: they have the amount of data in; they have number of queries made against the platform; and then storage, how much data you have and for how long. And depending on the use case, some people keep it around for relatively short time, like a few days or a couple of weeks. Other folks have it for many, many months and potentially years in some places. So, you really have that option.But I would say the three products are really about how you want to run it. Do you care about running the, kind of, underlying infrastructure and managing it or do you just want to hit an endpoint, as you said.Corey: You launched this, I want to say in 2019, which feels about directionally right. And I know it was after Timestream was announced, so I just want to say first, how kind and selfless it was of you to validate AWS's market, which is, you know how they always like to clarify and define what they're doing when they decide to enter every single market anywhere to compete with everyone. It turns out, I don't get the sense that they like it quite [laugh] as much being on the other side of that particular divide, but that's the best kind of problem, too: again, someone else's.Brian: Yeah, I think that's really true.Corey: The challenge that I have is that it seems like a weird direction to go in as a company, though it is clearly based upon a number of press releases you have made about the success and market traction that you found, it feels, on some level, like it is falling into an older version of an open-source trap of assuming that, “Well, we wrote the software therefore we are the best people you could pick to run it.” That was what a lot of companies did; it turns out that AWS has this operational excellence, as they call it, and what the rest of us call burning through people and making them wake up in the middle of the night to fix things before it becomes customer-visible. But from the outside, there's no difference. It seems, however, that you have built something that is clearly resonating, and in a big way, in a way that—I've got to be direct with you—the AWS time-series service that they are offering has not been finding success.Brian: Thank you for saying that, and we feel pretty excited about the success we've had even being in the same market as Amazon. And Amazon does a phenomenal job at running products at scale, and the breadth that they have in their product lineup is pretty impressive, especially when they roll out new stuff at AWS re:Invent every year. But we've been able to find some pretty good success with our approach, and it's based on a couple of things. So, one is being the company that actually develops and still deploys the open-source is really important. People gravitate to that.Our roots as a company are open-source, we've been a part of and fostered this community over many, many years, and there's a certain trust in the direction that we're taking the company. And Paul, our founder who you mentioned, he's been front and center with that community, pretty deeply engaged for many, many years. I think that carries a lot of weight. At least that's the way we think about it. But then as far as commercial products go, we really think about it as going to where our customers are, going to where developers are. And that could mean the language that they prefer, the language of preference for them. And that could [crosstalk 00:22:25]—Corey: Oh, and it's very clear; it seems that most database companies that I talk to—again, without naming names—tend to focus on the top-down sale, but I've never worked in an environment where the database that will be used was dictated by anyone other than the application developers who are the closest to the technical requirements for the workload. I've never understood this model of, “Oh, we're going to talk to the C suite because we believe that they're going to pick a database vendor based upon who has box seats this season.” I've never gotten that and that probably means I'm a terrible enterprise marketer, on some level. But unlike almost every other player in the database space, I've never struggled to understand what the hell your messaging has meant, other than the technical bits that I just don't have quite enough neurons to bang together to create sparks to fully understand. It is very clearly targeted at a builder rather than someone who's more or less spending their entire life in meetings. Which, oh, God, that's me.Brian: [laugh]. Yes, it's very much the case. We are focused on the developer. And that developer is a builder of an application or service that is seeing the light of day, it's going out and being used by their own end-users and end-customers.And so we care about going to where those developers are, and that could mean going and making your product easily used in the language and tool that customer cares about. So, if you're a Python developer, it's important for us to have tools and make it easy for Python developers. We have client libraries for Python, for example. It also means going to the cloud where your customers are. And this is something that differentiates us as well, when you start looking at what the other cloud providers are offering, in that data—like it or not—has gravity. And so somebody that has built their whole stack on AWS and sure they care about using a service that is going to receive their data, and that also being in AWS, but—Corey: It has to live where the customers are, especially with data egress charges being what they are, too.Brian: Exactly.Corey: And data gravity is real. The cloud provider people pick is the one where their data lives because of that particular inflection in the market.Brian: Absolutely true. And so that's great if you're only going after people who are on AWS, but what about Google Cloud and what about Microsoft Azure? There are a lot of developers that are building on those platforms as well, and that's one of the reasons we want to go there as well. So, InfluxDB Cloud is a multi-cloud offering, and it's equal experience and capability and pricing on each of the three major clouds. You can buy directly from us; you can put it on any of your cloud bills in one of those marketplaces, and to us that's like a really, really fundamental point is to bring your product and make it as easy to use on those platforms and in those languages, and in those realms and use cases where people are already working.Corey: I'm a big believer in multi-cloud for the use case you just defined. Because I know I'm going to get letters if I don't say this based upon my public multi-cloud is a dumb default worst practice for most folks—because it is, on a workload-by-workload basis—but you're building a service that has to be close to where your customers are and for that specific thing, yeah, it makes an awful lot of sense for you to have a presence across all the different providers. Now, here's the $64,000 question for you: is the experience as an InfluxDB Cloud customer meaningfully different between different providers?Brian: It's not. We actually pride ourselves on it being the same. Using InfluxDB, you sign up for InfluxDB Cloud, you come in, you set up your account, create your organization, and then you choose which underlying cloud provider you want your account to be provisioned in. And so it actually comes as a secondary choice; it's not something that is gated in the beginning, and that allows us to deliver a uniform experience across the board. And you may in a future use case, maybe somebody wants to have part of what they're building data living in AWS and maybe part of it living in Azure, I mean, that could be a scenario as well.However, typically what we've seen—and you've probably seen this as well—is  most developers are—and organizations—are building mostly on one cloud. I don't see a lot of  multi-cloud in that organization. But we ourselves need to be multi-cloud in order to go to where those people are working. And so that's the distinction. It's for us as a company that delivers product to those people, it's important for us to go where they are, whereas they themselves are not necessarily running on all three cloud products; they're probably running on one platform.Corey: Yeah. On a workload-by-workload basis, that's what generally makes sense. Anytime you have someone who has a particular workload that needs to be in multiple providers, okay, great, you're going to put that out there, but their backend systems, their billing, their marketing, all the rest, is not going to go down that path for a variety of excellent reasons, mostly that it is a colossal pain, and a bunch of, more or less, solving the same problems over and over, rather than the whole point of cloud being to make it someone else's. I want to thank you for taking so much time to speak to me about how you're viewing the evolution of the market, how you're seeing your move into cloud, and how you're effectively targeting folks who can actually care about the implementation details of a database rather than, honestly, suits. If people want to learn more, where can they find you?Brian: They can go to our website; it's the easiest place to go. So, influxdata.com. You can read all about InfluxDB, it's a pretty easy sign up to get underway. So, I recommend that people get their hands dirty with the product. That's the easiest way to understand what it's all about.Corey: And if you do end up doing that, please tell them I sent you because the involuntary flinch whenever people mention my name to vendors is one of my favorite parts of being me. Brian, thank you so much for being so generous with your time. I appreciate it.Brian: Thanks so much for having us on. It was great.Corey: Brian Mullen, Chief Marketing Officer—and dealmaker—at InfluxData. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn, and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice along with a long, angry comment telling me that you work on the Timestream service team, and your product is the best. It's found huge success, but I've just never met any of your customers and I can't because they all live in Canada.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

About BrianI lead the Google Cloud Product and Industry Marketing team. We're focused on accelerating the growth of Google Cloud by establishing thought leadership, increasing demand and usage, enabling our sales teams and partners to tell our product stories with excellence, and helping our customers be the best advocates for us.Before joining Google, I spent over 25 years in product marketing or engineering in different forms. I started my career at Microsoft and had a very non-traditional path for 20 years. I worked in every product division except for cloud. I did marketing, product management, and engineering roles. And, early on, I was the first speech writer for Steve Ballmer and worked on Bill Gates' speeches too. My last role was building up the Microsoft Surface business from scratch and as VP of the hardware businesses. After Microsoft, I spent a year as CEO at a hardware startup called Doppler Labs, where we made a run at transforming hearing, and then two years as VP at Amazon Web Services leading product marketing, developer advocacy, and a bunch more marketing teams. I have three kids still at home, Barty, Noli, and Alder, who are all named after trees in different ways. My wife Edie and I met right at the beginning of our first year at Yale University, where I studied math, econ, and philosophy and was the captain of the Swim and Dive team my senior year. Edie has a PhD in forestry and runs a sustainability and forestry consulting firm she started, that is aptly named “Three Trees Consulting”. We love the outdoors, tennis, running, and adventures in my 1986 Volkswagen Van, which is my first and only car, that I can't bring myself to get rid of.Links: Twitter: https://twitter.com/IsForAt LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brhall/ Episode 10: https://www.lastweekinaws.com/podcast/screaming-in-the-cloud/episode-10-education-is-not-ready-for-teacherless/ TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by our friends at Redis, the company behind the incredibly popular open source database that is not the bind DNS server. If you're tired of managing open source Redis on your own, or you're using one of the vanilla cloud caching services, these folks have you covered with the go to manage Redis service for global caching and primary database capabilities; Redis Enterprise. Set up a meeting with a Redis expert during re:Invent, and you'll not only learn how you can become a Redis hero, but also have a chance to win some fun and exciting prizes. To learn more and deploy not only a cache but a single operational data platform for one Redis experience, visit redis.com/hero. Thats r-e-d-i-s.com/hero. And my thanks to my friends at Redis for sponsoring my ridiculous non-sense.  Corey: Writing ad copy to fit into a 30 second slot is hard, but if anyone can do it the folks at Quali can. Just like their Torque infrastructure automation platform can deliver complex application environments anytime, anywhere, in just seconds instead of hours, days or weeks. Visit Qtorque.io today and learn how you can spin up application environments in about the same amount of time it took you to listen to this ad.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. I'm joined today by a special guest that I've been, honestly, antagonizing for years now. Once upon a time, he spent 20 years at Microsoft, then he wound up leaving—as occasionally people do, I'm told—and going to AWS, where according to an incredibly ill-considered affidavit filed in a court case, he mostly focused on working on PowerPoint slides. AWS is famously not a PowerPoint company, and apparently, you can't change culture. Now, he's the VP of Product and Industry Marketing at Google Cloud. Brian Hall, thank you for joining me.Brian: Hi, Corey. It's good to be here.Corey: I hope you're thinking that after we're done with our conversation. Now, unlike most conversations that I tend to have with folks who are, honestly, VP level at large cloud companies that I enjoy needling, we're not going to talk about that today because instead, I'd rather focus on a minor disagreement we got into on Twitter—and I mean that in the truest sense of disagreement, as opposed to the loud, angry, mutual blocking, threatening to bomb people's houses, et cetera, nonsense that appears to be what substitutes for modern discourse—about, oh, a month or so ago from the time we're recording this. Specifically, we talked about, I'm in favor of job-hopping to advance people's career, and you, as we just mentioned, spent 20 years at Microsoft and take something of the opposite position. Let's talk about that. Where do you stand on the idea?Brian: I stand in the position that people should optimize for where they are going to grow the most. And frankly, the disagreement was less about job-hopping because I'm going to explain how I job-hopped at Microsoft effectively.Corey: Excellent. That is the reason I'm asking you rather than poorly stating your position and stuffing you like some sort of Christmas turkey straw-man thing.Brian: And I would argue that for many people, changing jobs is the best thing that you can do, and I'm often an advocate for changing jobs even before sometimes people think they should do it. What I mostly disagreed with you on is simply following the money on your next job. What you said is if a—and I'm going to get it somewhat wrong—but if a company is willing to pay you $40,000 more, or some percentage more, you should take that job now.Corey: Gotcha.Brian: And I don't think that's always the case, and that's what we're talking about.Corey: This is the inherent problem with Twitter is that first, I tend to write my Twitter threads extemporaneously without a whole lot of thought being put into things—kind of like I live my entire life, but that's neither here nor there—Brian: I was going to say, that comes across quite clearly.Corey: Excellent. And 280 characters lacks nuance. And I definitely want to have this discussion; this is not just a story where you and I beat heads and not come to an agreement on this. I think it's that we fundamentally do agree on the vast majority of this, I just want to make sure that we have this conversation in a way, in a forum that doesn't lend itself to basically empowering the worst aspects of my own nature. Read as, not Twitter.Brian: Great. Let's do that.Corey: So, my position is, and I was contextualizing this from someone who had reached out who was early in their career, they had spent a couple of years at AWS and they were entertaining an offer elsewhere for significantly more money. And this person, I believe I can—I believe it's okay for me to say this: she—was very concerned that, “I don't want to look like I'm job-hopping, and I don't dislike my team. My manager is great. I feel disloyal for leaving. What should I do?”Which first, I just want to say how touched I am that someone who is early in their career and not from a wildly overrepresented demographic like you and I felt a sense of safety and security in reaching out to ask me that question. I really wish more people would take that kind of initiative. It's hard to inspire, but here we are. And my take to her was, “Oh, my God. Take the money.” That was where this thread started because when I have conversations with people about those things, it becomes top of mind, and I think, “Hmm, maybe there's a one-to-many story that becomes something that is actionable and useful.”Brian: Okay, so I'm going to give two takes on this. I'll start with my career because I was in a similar position as she was, at one point in my career. My background, I lucked into a job at Microsoft as an intern in 1995, and then did another internship in '96 and then started full time on the Internet Explorer team. And about a year-and-a-half into that job, I—we had merged with the Windows '98 team and I got the opportunity to work on Bill Gates's speech for the Windows '98 launch event. And I—after that was right when Steve Ballmer became president of Microsoft and he started doing a lot more speeches and asked to have someone to help him with speeches.And Chris Capossela, who's now the CMO at Microsoft, said, “Hey, Brian. You interested in doing this for Steve?” And my first reaction was, well, even inside Microsoft, if I move, it will be disloyal. Because my manager's manager, they've given me great opportunities, they're continuing to challenge me, I'm learning a bunch, and they advised not doing it.Corey: It seems to me like you were in a—how to put this?—not to besmirch the career you have wrought with the sweat of your brow and the toil of your back, but in many ways, you were—in a lot of ways—you were in the right place at the right time, riding a rocket ship, and built opportunities internally and talked to folks there, and built the relationships that enabled you to thrive inside of a company's ecosystem. Is that directionally correct?Brian: For sure. Yet, there's also, big companies are teams of teams, and loyalty is more often with the team and the people that you work with than the 401k plan. And in this case, you know, I was getting this pressure that says, “Hey, Brian. You're going to get all these opportunities. You're doing great doing what you're doing.”And I eventually had the luck to ask the question, “Hey, if I go there and do this role”—and by the way, nobody had done it before, and so part of their argument was, “You're young, Steve's… Steve. Like, you could be a fantastic ball of flames.” And I said, “Okay, if [laugh] let's say that happens. Can I come back? Can I come back to the job I was doing before?”And they were like, “Yeah, of course. You're good at what you do.” To me, which was, “Okay, great. Then I'm gone. I might as well go try this.” And of course, when I started at Microsoft, I was 20, 21, and I thought I'd be there for two or three years and then I'd end up going back to school or somewhere else. But inside Microsoft, what kept happening as I just kept getting new opportunities to do something else that I'd learned a bunch from, and I ultimately kind of created this mentality for how I thought about next job of, “Am I going to get more opportunities if I am able to be successful in this new job?” Really focused on optionality and the ability to do work that I want to do and have more choices to do that.Corey: You are also on a I almost want to call it a meteoric trajectory. In some ways. You effectively went from—what was your first role there? It was—Brian: The lowest level of college hire you can do at Microsoft, effectively.Corey: Yeah. All the way on up to at the end of it the Corporate VP for Microsoft Devices. It seems to me that despite the fact that you spent 20 years there, you wound up having a bunch of different jobs and an entire career trajectory internal to the organization, which is, let's be clear, markedly different from some of the folks I've interviewed at various times, in my career as an employer and as a technical interviewer at a consulting company, where they'd been somewhere for 15 years, and they had one year of experience that they repeated 15 times. And it was one of the more difficult things that I encountered is that some folks did not take ownership of their career and focus on driving it forward.Brian: Yeah, that, I had the opposite experience, and that is what kept me there that long. After I would finish a job, I would say, “Okay, what do I want to learn how to do next, and what is a challenge that would be most interesting?” And initially, I had to get really lucky, honestly, to be able to get these. And I did the work, but I had to have the opportunity, and that took luck. But after I had a track record of saying, “Hey, I can jump from being a product marketer to being a speechwriter; I can do speechwriting and then go do product management; I can move from product management into engineering management.”I can do that between different businesses and product types, you build the ability to say, “Hey, I can learn that if you give me the chance.” And it, frankly, was the unique combination of experiences I had by having tried to do these other things that gave me the opportunity to have a fast trajectory within the company.Corey: I think it's also probably fair to say that Microsoft was a company that, in its dealings with you, is operating in good faith. And that is a great thing to find when you see it, but I'm cynical; I admit that. I see a lot of stories where people give and sacrifice for the good of the company, but that sacrifice is never reciprocated. And we've all heard the story of folks who will put their nose to the grindstone to ship something on time, only to be rewarded with a layoff at the end, and stories like that resonate.And my argument has always been that you can't love a company because the company can't love you back. And when you're looking at do I make a career move or do I stay, my argument is that is the best time to be self-interested.Brian: Yeah, I don't think—companies are there for the company, and certainly having a culture that supports people that wants to create opportunity, having a manager that is there truly to make you better and to give you opportunity, that all can happen, but it's within a company and you have to do the work in order to try and get into that environment. Like, I worked hard to have managers who would support my growth, would give me the bandwidth and leash early on to not be perfect at what I'm doing, and that always helped me. But you get to go pick them in a company like that, or in the industry in general, you get—just like when a manager is hiring you, you also get to understand, hey, is this a person I want to work for?But I want to come back to the main point that I wanted to make. When I changed jobs, I did it because I wanted to learn something new and I thought that would have value for me in the medium-term and long-term, versus how do I go max cash in what I'm already good at?Corey: Yes.Brian: And that's the root of what we were disagreeing with on Twitter. I have seen many people who are good at something, and then another company says, “Hey, I want you to do that same thing in a worse environment, and we'll pay you more.”Corey: Excellence is always situational. Someone who is showered in accolades at one company gets fired at a different company. And it's not because they suddenly started sucking; it's because the tools and resources that they needed to succeed were present in one environment and not the other. And that varies from person to person; when someone doesn't work out of the company, I don't have a default assumption that there's something inherently wrong with them.Of course, I look at my own career and the sheer, staggeringly high number of times I got fired, and I'm starting to think, “Huh. The only consistent factor in all of these things is me. Nah, couldn't be my problem. I just worked for terrible places, for terrible people. That's got to be the way it works.” My own peace of mind. I get it. That is how it feels sometimes and it's easy to dismiss that in different ways. I don't want to let my own bias color this too heavily.Brian: So, here are the mistakes that I've seen made: “I'm really good at something; this other company will pay me to do just that.” You move to do it, you get paid more, but you have less impact, you don't work with as strong of people, and you don't have a next step to learn more. Was that a good decision? Maybe. If you need the money now, yes, but you're a little bit trading short-term money for medium-and long-term money where you're paid for what you know; that's the best thing in this industry. We're paid for what we know, which means as you're doing a job, you can build the ability to get paid more by knowing more, by learning more, by doing things that stretch you in ways that you don't already know.Corey: In 2006, I bluffed my way through a technical interview and got a job as a Unix systems administrator for a university that was paying $65,000 a year, and I had no idea what I was going to do with all of that money. It was more money than I could imagine at that point. My previous high watermark, working for an ethically challenged company in a sales role at a target comp of 55, and I was nowhere near it. So okay, let's go somewhere else and see what happens. And after I'd been there a month or two, my boss sits me down and said, “So”—it's our annual compensation adjustment time—“Congratulations. You now make $68,000.”And it's just, “Oh, my God. This is great. Why would I ever leave?” So, I stayed there a year and I was relatively happy, insofar as I'm ever happy in a job. And then a corporate company came calling and said, “Hey, would you consider working here?”“Well, I'm happy here and I'm reasonably well compensated. Why on earth would I do that?” And the answer was, “Well, we'll pay you $90,000 if you do.” It's like, “All right. I guess I'm going to go and see what the world holds.”And six weeks later, they let me go. And then I got another job that also paid $90,000 and I stayed there for two years. And I started the process of seeing what my engagement with the work world look like. And it was a story of getting let go periodically, of continuing to claw my way up and, credit where due, in my 20s I was in crippling credit card debt because I made a bunch of poor decisions, so I biased early on for more money at almost any cost. At some point that has to stop because there's always a bigger paycheck somewhere if you're willing to go and do something else.And I'm not begrudging anyone who pursues that, but at some point, it ceases to make a difference. Getting a raise from $68,000 to $90,000 was life-changing for me. Now, getting a $30,000 raise? Sure, it'd be nice; I'm not turning my nose up at it, don't get me wrong, but it's also not something that moves the needle on my lifestyle.Brian: Yeah. And there are a lot of those dimensions. There's the lifestyle dimension, there's the learning dimension, there's the guaranteed pay dimension, there's the potential paid dimension, there is the who I get to work with, just pure enjoyment dimension, and they all matter. And people should recognize that job moves should consider all of these.And you don't have to have the same framework over time as well. I've had times where I really just wanted to bear down and figure something out. And I did one job at Microsoft for basically six years. It changed in terms of scope of things that I was marketing, and which division I was in, and then which division I was in, and then which division I was in—because Microsoft loves a good reorg—but I basically did the same job for six years at one point, and it was very conscious. I was trying to get really good at how do I manage a team system at scale. And I didn't want to leave that until I had figured that out. I look back and I think that's one of the best career decisions I ever made, but it was for reasons that would have been really hard to explain to a lot of people.Corey: Let's also be very clear here that you and I are well-off white dudes in tech. Our failure mode is pretty much a board seat and a book deal. In fact, if—Brian: [laugh].Corey: —I'm not mistaken, you are on the board of something relatively recently. What was that?Brian: United Way of King County. It's a wonderful nonprofit in the Seattle area.Corey: Excellent. And I look forward to reading your book, whenever that winds up dropping. I'm sure it'll be only the very spiciest of takes. For folks who are earlier in their career and who also don't have the winds of privilege at their backs the way that you and I do, this also presents radically differently. And I've spoken to a number of folks who are not wildly over-represented about this topic, in the wake of that Twitter explosion.And what I heard was interesting in that having a manager who has your back counts for an awful lot and is something that is going to absolutely hold you to a particular company, even when it might make sense on paper for you to leave. And I think that there's something strong there. My counterargument is okay, so you turn down the offer, a month goes past and your manager gives notice because they're going to go somewhere else. What then? It's one of those things where you owe your employer a duty of confidentiality, you owe them a responsibility to do your best work, to conduct yourself in an ethical manner, but I don't believe you owe them loyalty in the sense of advancing their interests ahead of what's best for you and your career arc.And what's right for any given person is, of course, a nuanced and challenging thing. For some folks, yeah, going out somewhere else for more money doesn't really change anything and is not what they should optimize for. For other folks, it's everything. And I don't think either of those takes is necessarily wrong. I think it comes down to it depends on who you are, and what your situation is, and what's right for you.Brian: Yeah. I totally agree. For early in career, in particular, I have been a part of—I grew up in the early versions of the campus hiring program at Microsoft, and then hired 500-plus, probably, people into my teams who were from that.Corey: You also do the same thing at AWS if I'm not mistaken. You launched their first college hiring program that I recall seeing, or at least that's what scuttlebutt has it.Brian: Yes. You're well-connected, Corey. We started something called the Product Marketing Leadership Development Program when I was in AWS marketing. And then one year, we hired 20 people out of college into my organization. And it was not easy to do because it meant using, quote-unquote, “Tenured headcount” in order to do it. There wasn't some special dispensation because they were less paid or anything, and in a world where headcount is a unit of work, effectively.And then I'm at Google now, in the Google Cloud division, and we have a wonderful program that I think is really well done, called the Associate Product Marketing Manager Program, APMM. And what I'd say is for the people early in career, if you get the opportunity to have a manager who's super supportive, in a system that is built to try and grow you, it's a wonderful opportunity. And by ‘system built to grow you,' it really is, do you have the support to get taught what you need to get taught on the job? Are you getting new opportunities to learn new things and do new things at a rapid clip? Are you shipping things into the market such that you can see the response and learn from that response, versus just getting people's internal opinions, and then are people stretching roles in order to make them amenable for someone early in career?And if you're in a system that gives you that opportunity—like let's take your example earlier. A person who has a manager who's greatly supportive of them and they feel like they're learning a lot, that manager leaves, if that system is right, there's another manager, or there's an opportunity to put your hand up and say, “Hey, I think I need a new place,” and that will be supported.Corey: This episode is sponsored by our friends at Oracle Cloud. Counting the pennies, but still dreaming of deploying apps instead of "Hello, World" demos? Allow me to introduce you to Oracle's Always Free tier. It provides over 20 free services and infrastructure, networking, databases, observability, management, and security. 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Visit snark.cloud/oci-free that's snark.cloud/oci-free.Corey: I have a history of mostly working in small companies, to the point where I consider a big company to be one that has more than 200 employees, so, the idea of radically transitioning and changing teams has never really been much on the table as I look at my career trajectory and my career arc. I have seen that I've gotten significant 30% raises by changing jobs. I am hard-pressed to identify almost anyone who has gotten that kind of raise in a single year by remaining at a company.Brian: One hundred percent. Like, I know of people who have, but it—Corey: It happens, but it's—Brian: —is very rare.Corey: —it's very rare.Brian: It's, it's, it's almost the, the, um, the example that proves the point. I getting that totally wrong. But yes, it's very rare, but it does happen. And I think if you get that far out of whack, yes. You should… you should go reset, especially if the other attributes are fine and you don't feel like you're just going to get mercenary pay.What I always try and advise people is, in the bigger companies, you want to be a good deal. You don't want to be a great deal or a bad deal. Where a great deal is you're getting significantly underpaid, a bad deal is, “Uh oh. We hired this person to [laugh] senior,” or, “We promoted them too early,” because then the system is not there to help you, honestly, in the grand scheme of things. A good deal means, “Hey, I feel like I'm getting better work from this person for what we are giving them than what the next clear alternative would be. Let's support them and help them grow.” Because at some level, part of your compensation is getting your company to create opportunities for you to grow. And part of the reason people go to a manager is they know they'll give them that compensation.Corey: I am learning this the interesting way, as we wind up hiring and building out our, currently, nine-person company. It's challenging for us to build those opportunities while bootstrapped, but it is incumbent upon us, you're right. That is a role of management is how do you identify growth opportunities for people, ideally, while remaining at the company, but sometimes that means that helping them land somewhere else is the right path for their next growth step.Brian: Well, that brings up a word for managers. What you pay your employees—and I'm talking big company here, not people like yourself, Corey, where you have to decide whether you reinvesting money or putting in an individual.Corey: Oh, yes—Brian: But at big companies—Corey: —a lot of things that apply when you own a company are radically departed from—Brian: Totally.Corey: —what is—Brian: Totally.Corey: —common guidance.Brian: Totally. At a big company, managers, you get zero credit for how much your employees get paid, what their raise is, whether they get promoted or not in the grand scheme of things. That is the company running their system. Yes, you helped and the like, but it's—like, when people tell me, “Hey, Brian, thank you for supporting my promotion.” My answer is always, “Thank you for having earned it. It's my job to go get credit where credit is due.” And that's not a big part of my job, and I honestly believe that.Where you do get credit with people, where you do show that you're a good manager is when you have the conversations with them that are harder for other people to have, but actually make them better; when you encourage them in the right way so that they grow faster; when you treat them fairly as a human being, and mostly when you do the thing that seems like it's against your own interest.Corey: That resonates. The moments of my career as a manager that I'm proud of stuff are the ones that I would call borderline subversive: telling a candidate to take the competing offer because they're going to have a better time somewhere else is one of those. But my philosophy ties back to the idea of job-hopping, where I'm going to know these people for longer than either of us are going to remain in our current role, on some level. I am curious what your approach is, given that you are now at the, I guess, other end for folks who are just starting out. How do you go about getting people into Cloud marketing? And, on some level, wouldn't you consider that being a form of abuse?Brian: [laugh]. It depends on whether they get to work with you or not, Corey.Corey: There is that.Brian: I won't tell you which one's abuse or not. So first, getting people into cloud marketing is getting people who do not have deeply technical backgrounds in most cases, oftentimes fantastic—people who are fantastic at understanding other people and communicating really well, and it gives them an opportunity to be in tech in one of the fastest-growing, fastest-changing spaces in the world. And so to go to a psych major, a marketing major, an American studies major, a history major, who can understand complex things and then communicate really well, and say, “Hey, I have an opportunity for you to join the fastest growing space in technology,” is often compelling.But their question kind of is, “Hey, will I be able to do it?” And the answer has to be, “Hey, we have a program that helps you learn, and we have a set of managers who know how to teach, and we create opportunities for you to learn on the job, and we're invested in you for more than a short period of time.” With that case, I've been able to hire and grow and work with, in some cases, people for over 15 years now that I worked with at Microsoft. I'm still in touch with many of the people from the Product Marketing Leadership Development Program at AWS. And we have a fantastic set of APMMs at Google, and it creates a wonderful opportunity for them.Increasingly, we're also seeing that it is one of the best ways to find people from many backgrounds. We don't just show up at the big CompSci schools. We're getting some wonderful, wonderful people from all the states in the nation, from the historically black colleges and universities, from majors that tend to represent very different groups than the traditional tech audiences. And so it's been a great source of broadening our talent pool, too.Corey: There's a lot to be said for having people who've been down this path and seeing the failure modes, reaching out to make so that the next generation—for lack of a better term—has an easier time than we did. The term I've heard for the concept is ‘send the elevator back down,' which is important. I think it's—otherwise we wind up with a whole industry that looks an awful lot like it did 20 years ago, and that's not ideal for anyone. The paths that you and I walked are closed, so sitting here telling people they should do what we did has very strong, ‘Okay, Boomer' energy to it.Brian: [laugh].Corey: There are different paths, and the world and industry are changing radically.Brian: Absolutely. And my—like, the biggest thing that I'd say here is—and again, just coming back to the one thing we disagreed on—look at the bigger picture and own your career. I would never say that isn't the case, but the bigger picture means not just what you're getting paid tomorrow, but are you learning more? What new options is it creating for you? And when I speak options, I mean, will you have more jobs that you can do that excite you after you do that job? And those things matter in addition to the pay.Corey: I would agree with that. Money is not everything, but it's also not nothing.Brian: Absolutely.Corey: I will say though you spent 20 years at Microsoft. I have no doubt that you are incredibly adept at managing your career, at managing corporate politics, at advancing your career and your objectives and your goals and your aspirations within Microsoft, but how does that translate to companies that have radically different corporate cultures? We see this all the time with founders who are ex-Google or ex-Microsoft, and suddenly it turns out that the things that empower them to thrive in the large corporate environment doesn't really work when you're a five-person startup, and you don't have an entire team devoted to that one thing that needs to get done.Brian: So, after Microsoft, I went to a company called Doppler Labs for a year. It was a pretty well-funded startup that made smart earbuds—this was before AirPods had even come out—and I was really nervous about the going from big company to startup thing, and I actually found that move pretty easy. I've always been kind of a hands-on, do-it-yourself, get down in the details manager, and that's served me well. And so getting into a startup and saying, “Hey, I get to just do stuff,” was almost more fun. And so after that—we ended up folding, but it was a wonderful ride; that's a much longer conversation—when I got to Amazon and I was in AWS—and by the way, the one division I never worked at Microsoft was Azure or its predecessor server and tools—and so part of the allure of AWS was not only was it another trillion-dollar company in my backwater hometown, but it was also cloud computing, was the space that I didn't know well.And they knew that I knew the discipline of product marketing and a bunch of other things quite well, and so I got that opportunity. But I did realize about four months in, “Oh, crap. Part of the reason that I was really successful at Microsoft is I knew how everything worked.” I knew where things have been tried and failed, I knew who to go ask about how to do things, and I knew none of that at Amazon. And it is a—a lot of what allows you to move fast, make good decisions, and frankly, be politically accepted, is understanding all that context that nobody can just tell you. So, I will say there is a cost in terms of your productivity and what you're able to get done when you move from a place that you're good at to a place that you're not good at yet.Corey: Way back in episode 10 of this podcast—as we get suspiciously close to 300 as best I can tell—I had Lynn Langit get on as a guest. And she was in the Microsoft MVP program, the AWS Hero program, and the Google Expert program. All three at once—Brian: Lynn is fantastic.Corey: It really is.Brian: Lynn is fantastic.Corey: I can only assume that you listened to that podcast and decided, huh, all three, huh? I can beat that. And decided that—Brian: [laugh].Corey: —instead of being in the volunteer to do work for enormous multinational companies group, you said, “No, no, no. I'm going to be a VP in all three of those.” And here we are. Now that you are at Google, you have checked all three boxes. What is the next mountain to climb for you?Brian: I have no clue. I have no clue. And honestly—again, I don't know how much of this is privilege versus by being forward-looking. I've honestly never known where the heck I was going to go in my career. I've just said, “Hey, let's have a journey, and let's optimize for doing something you want to do that is going to create more opportunities for you to do something you want to do.”And so even when I left Microsoft, I was in a great position. I ran the Surface business, and HoloLens, and a whole bunch of other stuff that was really fun, but I also woke up one day and realized, “Oh, my gosh. I've been at Microsoft for 20 years. If I stay here for the next job, I'm earning the right to get another job at Microsoft, more so than anything else, and there's a big world out there that I want to explore a bit.” And so I did the startup; it was fun, I then thought I'd do another startup, but I didn't want to commute to San Francisco, which I had done.And then I found most of the really, really interesting startups in Seattle were cloud-related and I had this opportunity to learn about cloud from, arguably, one of the best with AWS. And then when I left AWS, I left not knowing what I was going to do, and I kind of thought, “Okay, now I'm going to do another cloud-oriented startup.” And Google came, and I realized I had this opportunity to learn from another company. But I don't know what's next. And what I'm going to do is try and do this job as best I can, get it to the point where I feel like I've done a job, and then I'll look at what excites me looking forward.Corey: And we will, of course, hold on to this so we can use it for your performance review, whenever that day comes.Brian: [laugh].Corey: I want to thank you for taking so much time to speak with me today. If people care more about what you have to say, perhaps you're hiring, et cetera, et cetera, where can they find you?Brian: Twitter, IsForAt: I-S-F-O-R-A-T. I'm certainly on Twitter. And if you want to connect professionally, I'm happy to do that on LinkedIn.Corey: And we will, of course, put links to those things in the [show notes 00:36:03]. Thank you so much for being so generous with your time. I appreciate it. I know you have a busy week of, presumably, attempting to give terrible names to various cloud services.Brian: Thank you, Corey. Appreciate you having me.Corey: Indeed. Brian Hall, VP of Product and Industry Marketing at Google Cloud. I am Cloud Economist Corey Quinn, and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, along with an insulting comment in the form of a PowerPoint deck.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

Results Coaching Model with Brian Lovegrove Brian Lovegrove has been on his journey of personal growth and professional development since the age of 17. Inspired by Tony Robbins, he has created not only a catalyst but a unique approach and process to helping others, like you, achieve their goals. He believes in providing & building upon the knowledge most coaches provide by practicing these lessons and building a HABIT! Using his "5 Keys of Success" in his coaching, he is a firm believer that if these keys are used, failure is all but eliminated. In this episode, we learn about all the tactics Brian uses and has honed over the years of being a coach and we did into a few of these methods during our conversation. As always, thanks so much for listening! Joe Brian Lovegrove Leadership Developer and Results Coach Website: https://brianlovegrovecoaching.com Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/brianslovegrove LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brianlovegrove/ Live Masterclass: https://www.becomeunstoppable.info 5 Keys to Success Podcast: https://5-keys-of-success.simplecast.com/ Unleash Your Fear eBook: https://www.unleashyourfear.com/freebook Email: lovegrove@lovegroveltd.com Podcast Music By: Andy Galore, Album: "Out and About", Song: "Chicken & Scotch" 2014 Andy's Links: http://andygalore.com/ https://www.facebook.com/andygalorebass If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. For show notes and past guests, please visit: https://joecostelloglobal.libsyn.com Subscribe, Rate & Review: I would love if you could subscribe to the podcast and leave an honest rating & review. This will encourage other people to listen and allow us to grow as a community. The bigger we get as a community, the bigger the impact we can have on the world. Sign up for Joe's email newsletter at: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#signup For transcripts of episodes, go to: https://joecostelloglobal.lybsyn.com Follow Joe: https://linktr.ee/joecostello Transcript Joe: Hi Brian, welcome to the podcast. I'm looking forward to having you on so many things I have to ask you, because you hit a core thing here with training, personal development courses, all of these things that I read about. And it's going to be interesting to find out your answers to these burning questions I asked. Brian: All right, Joe, I'm looking forward to it. Let's get rocking and rolling here. Joe: Awesome. OK, so you have to bear with me, because I literally do this with every single person on my podcast, is that I think it's important for my audience, who I believe is mostly entrepreneurs, whether they're currently doing their thing or they want to do their thing or they're struggling, doing their thing or whatever it might be. I think it's important for them to know the back story of the person that is on, because it's important to understand the development of where you came from and how you got to where you are today. And I think a lot of those things that you talk about actually people listening, going, oh, yeah, I've been there. I did that. I remember that. So I always leave this open to saying you can go back as far as you want, because if something in elementary school created who you are today, I want the audience to know about it so you can start wherever you want. Brian: Well, people ask me how I got introduced to personal development in the first place, and I actually go back to junior high. My dad was a commercial real estate broker and I grew up in Montana. And any time we would leave town, we would go on a long trip. And so he would pull out these tapes from work. And this was, of course, back before the iPods. The noise canceling headphones in that great, wonderful device that many of us grew up with, the Sony Walkman, Joe: Near Brian: Whatever Joe: And dear to my Brian: He Joe: Heart. Brian: Put into that. Yes. Yes. And so I got stuck listening to whatever was in the tape deck. And so I got introduced to guys like Earl Nightingale, Jim Roan and my favorite Zig Ziglar. And listening to those guys, Dennis Wailea, on and on and on and on, they taught me what it was to be an entrepreneur. And I remember Ziggs saying, treat every job as if you were the owner of the business and those HAQQ series that I listened to through junior high and high school shaped me in my choices in college. I actually got a degree in professional sales because of a I was originally going for a management degree my first year. My sister was two years ahead of me and she told me after my freshman year and says, you know what, Brian, you might want to consider changing majors because the people that I know that are graduating with management degrees are struggling to find jobs. And I went back and that that prompted me to ask a really good deep question at all. I don't know, 18. I asked myself, what career, what major, what level of information do I need to get while you're at college that would regardless of what happens to the industry, because I knew, you know, it's going to be out here in the marketplace for over 50 years. What degree do I need to go get that will? Regardless of what's going to happen, the ups and downs of the industry, whether we end up in another recession, we end up in another depression, that I would always have an opportunity to have a job if I wanted one. Brian: And that always brought me back to the sales aspect that Zig always mentioned, because, again, he did a lot of his sales around the Depression area and that that aspect of life where it's like how do you survive? How do you keep going in those areas? And it's really the salespeople that make the world go round. And so that's what led me to a sales degree. The other decision that I made when I was 17 was I got introduced to a guy named Tony Robbins and I bought his first tape series. Imagine a freshman in college spending probably a month of his earnings on a tape series. And I bought Tony's unlimited power. I still have the tapes are used today, actually gone and bought a second set because I wore out one of those tapes so that because I listened to it so much and I followed Tony ever since, I actually helped promote and put on his seminars for one of his franchises. And along the way, I've always been doing personal development, personal growth, and, you know, a lot I loved it. I just ate it up. But one of the big challenges that I ran into, I turned 40. Brian: It was like, why am I not far enough along? I've been doing this for 20 years. Why am I just here? Because at the time I was struggling to pay the bills. I was struggling to get by. My wife was working. We had two small kids. And I thought by the time I turned 40, I would have been much farther along by now. And so in this process, I realized it wasn't until much later that learning is not enough to make lasting change. I was actively learning. I was seeking the puzzle pieces, the pieces of information that was missing in my life. And I figured once I learned that then life would be easy and I'd be making all this money. But that never happened because I never did. The one thing that I learned all the way back in the beginning from XG is you have to do it until you get good enough at it, till it becomes your new normal. And only then, once you've applied and implement those strategies in your life, will they actually work for you. And you've got to do it long enough to get good enough at it and then continue to stick with it to where you can actually allow the compounding effect to, you know, you slowly creep and then you kind of turn that corner and it goes straight up. And it took me 50 years to hit that. Joe: So I'm going to go back real quick because I want to know what triggered you to buy that Tony Robbins course. You know, I know you were listening to this stuff in the car with your father on the Walkman or whatever else you were doing it. I mean, a kid at 17 doesn't do that. So what triggered it? Brian: Well, I had read the book, his book had come out and I had read the book and I really loved he had such a different style and he was talking about different things and he was talking about the things in the mind and he was talking about he and the different aspects there. And a lot of that was like, oh, my gosh, this stuff makes so much sense. And I was applying some of those strategies and I was seeing specific results. And I was like, and that's really what made me buy in. In fact, that's probably one of the few programs that I really started implementing strategy on. One of the big strategies you talked about was marketing Meeri, and it was one that I specifically used as I got into my initial first jobs and sales career. But I used on a consistent basis to help me actually get as far as long as I did. Joe: Ok, I'm still going to ask the question, because I'm not sure if you answered it yet. Why would a 17 year old buy the book like 17 year olds don't don't get into this stuff. So and I think it's important to figure out what triggered it for you. Brian: Well, again, I think it has to do with that was the next step, I the company that was putting those out was Nightingale Conant Joe: Yeah. Brian: And my dad would get those and I probably was home. I don't remember where I was when I got it. I might have gone home for Thanksgiving or Christmas. And I grabbed the magazine I love looking at because again, I've been doing this for a number of years now. And I was like, what? What's the new stuff they got? You know, Wayne Dyer was there and you know, you know who who are who's the new people? And there was this new one from this guy named Tony Robbins. And I don't know, I guess it just resonated with me. And I think it was seventy five bucks. And it was like and to be honest with you, I really can't say what prompted me to go. I want that. Joe: Mm hmm. Brian: But I think it was more of the sales pitch in the description of what it promised me. Joe: Got it. Brian: More than anything, that's what I would say it was based upon the results that were promised, based upon the description of the tape series. Joe: Ok, so you've been around that sort of thing for a long time, right? And if correct me if I'm wrong at any point, because I want to make sure this is super clear to the listeners, is that from what I get of what we're going to go still back, I still have other stuff to do, but I want to kind of set the stage of your expertise or what you believe is, is how you can help people. As you said, you can buy all the courses and attend all the conferences and do all of this stuff. You've said it here. You set it on your website. The enthusiasm kind of goes away when life gets in the way. Right. It's basically that simple. You come back from the high of of being at a conference or are listening to something and then life literally just gets in the way and you don't get the things done that you promised yourself that you would. So my understanding is that you are basically this coach that is going to keep you on track. Whether life gets in the way or not, you're basically going to be this person that is going to bring people along through all of this and keep them accountable to what they promise themselves that they would do and make sure that they do all of the things that are needed without shelving anything because life got in the way. Is that fair? Brian: Right, it is because, again, you know, Tony is great if you've ever been to one of his big events, you P.W. he he can talk nine thousand people into walking across twelve hundred degree recalls in a day. Joe: Yeah. Brian: By the end of day one, he's got you walking across Coles. But again, how do you can't maintain that energy and that excitement and the momentum of that event for weeks, months, years to get to where you want to go? And Tony has admitted that this is an area that he struggles with, is how do I get people to keep going? Joe: Mm hmm. Brian: Which is one of the reasons why he has his coaching program that you can go and pay tens of thousands of dollars to get a coach for a year, and it's one of the reasons why he actually created the pyramids, Madonna's training group, to train people like me to be coaches that help people implement his strategies. And that's really what it comes down to, is how do you take the strategies that, you know, you need to be doing and implement them? One of the biggest challenges in society today is we don't teach people discipline for the most part. There's a few places that that happens. But outside of that, it's not encouraged. In fact, it's almost especially in today's society, you're not responsible, you know, being responsible for yourself, being accountable. That goes out the window. And yet that's how you are going to be successful. That's how you're going to get to where you want to go. Unfortunately, society is teaching people to be cheap and to live in mediocrity. That is not how you're going to get to where you want to go, because I'm assuming that most people here are entrepreneurs. Joe: Mm Brian: They're Joe: Hmm. Brian: Entrepreneurs for a reason because they are sick and tired of working for somebody else's dreams. And so they want to pursue their own dreams or they think they can do it better. And so they're out there trying to do it on their own. But there's a myth that goes with that is the fact that they have to do it on their own, they have to try to figure it out all by themselves. And some of my best clients are the people that have gone to school to learn how to do what they want to do, a chiropractor or a massage therapist, the tradesperson, they know how to either pound nails Turner Ranch, adjust somebody's back, but they don't necessarily know how to do this thing called run a business. And so there's certain aspects that come into play because my my ideal market is that small business owner, entrepreneur and professional who's out there wanting to make a difference in their world, in their communities and their lives to make a bigger impact. But they're struggling to do that because they're trying to deal with all of the distractions and all the stuff that's coming at us. And it's like, how do I get a hold of that? How do I how do I focus on those things that truly matter that are going to move the needle for me and my business? And that's really where I come alongside them. Brian: And I say that specifically because I can't take the journey for you, but I'm happy to take the journey with you. And see, that's where the big challenge is, is a lot of people feel like they go to the seminar, which is, OK, here's how you go climb a mountain. Here's the equipment you're going to need and what happens to the trainer. They get all loaded up. They load them up and they say, go have fun. And they go walking down the path. And the river that they were told was a small creek is now this raging river, the bridge that they were supposed to be able to go across was washed out. And it's not like, what the heck am I supposed to do now? They weren't prepared for what they're going to experience or they didn't get enough information. That's one of the things that I always felt in the training classes and seminars I went to. I always felt like there was a piece of information missing. And there's only so much that somebody can teach you. You actually have to go experience it for yourself in order to develop those nuances that are really going to make a difference for you. Joe: Yeah, and I think that there are very, very, very few people in the world that can and you hit it on the head, the discipline that they will actually take, what they've learned, whether it's in a chorus, it's at a seminar or whatever, and actually implement it and be accountable to themselves. I think that's a really, really small pool of people. And so Brian: It is. Joe: Because the Olympics just happened, if we even made an analogy of like you went to class to become a gymnast and you said in a week long seminar to learn all of the different moves and tricks and flips and things, and then you just don't go and show up and start doing that. You have a coach that's watching you Brian: Right. Joe: And and helping you understand all of those things and the mechanics of it. So to me, that's what you're that's really where you help, is that you are there to, like I said earlier, to to to to push them, keep them on track, assist them with when they Brian: The. Joe: Hit roadblocks. You're by their side throughout the whole process. Right. Brian: Right, and I think so many times we have this misunderstanding because we've been taught that learning is going and sitting in class. And that's not necessarily true, but unfortunately, the self development industry has taken this model of let's bring them in, sit them down, overwhelm them with information, make them feel like they're drinking from a firehose so they feel like we've given them a tremendous amount of value and then send them on their way. And so the more people we can pack into that room, the better we make more money that way. Yeah, we actually end up doing a disservice to the customer, to the client, because at the end there is no support. And so how do you make sure somebody has what they need in order to actually achieve the results they want? And that is challenging along the way. And we've created several ways for people to do that because, again, money gets in the way. I mean, if you have enough money, you can find somebody that's going to come alongside and help you get to where you want to go. Joe: Mm hmm. Brian: But we actually started one hundred bucks a month. We've got programs where you can get that at least some help along the way to get you to where you want to go. And we grow from there. But it comes down to this process of how do we get you to take the actions you know you need to take? How do we get you to move forward consistently? And it's just like the example you used is great. The one that I love to use is the example of going to get into shape. You don't go to the gym for three days straight and be done. That doesn't cut Joe: It's. Brian: It. You know, usually you go once for a few hours and you're like, oh my God, you wake Joe: Yeah. Brian: Up the next day and you can't move. And so it's like, why would you expect you to be able to do that in the other areas of your life? Joe: Yeah, I go to the gym five days a week and I still am like, why don't I look better? So you're really in a great position to do this, because how many years did you spend in that whole seminar course kind of world? And I know you're still involved in some of it, but you helped run Brian: Well, Joe: Some Brian: I Joe: Of these. Brian: Yeah, I help promote Joe: Yep. Brian: To put them on the grand scheme of things, I didn't do that a lot. I was probably with them for maybe about a year before the franchise partnership broke up and therefore the franchise collapsed. But it was a great opportunity and I learned a lot going through that process. Back in starting in 2003, I joined Toastmasters and worked myself up over the number of years to become a semi-professional speaker when I wrote my first book and got kind of started in that. But I never really got traction and got that off the ground in this process. One of the things that happened was I shifted from Toastmasters into a leadership role in nonprofit organizations, specifically to the Boy Scouts. But one of the things I saw was because, again, I was focusing on the teaching aspect because I love watching that light bulb go off. But what I didn't realize was because I didn't see it in my life at the moment, at the time yet was that, again, teaching them was good. But coaching them is better because, again, it's about growth and it's part of my all the exercises and things I've done. I mean, I have done it easily. Quarter of a million dollars on personal development. I have bookcases and bookcases of books and tape series that are, you know, this is the pretty self I have, you know, boxes on wooden shelves and storage units full of books and stuff that I've consumed. And it's actually one of my coaching partners mentioned to me and from one of the coaching programs I was in, he says she said, Brian, you have a vault of ideas and strategies to help somebody to move forward. Brian: And so when they need it, you can provide it for them. And so really, it's about getting people to move. It's not about trying to teach you something new. It's about how can I get you to move forward and understanding how to motivate somebody to move. And he talks about the pleasure and pain principles. We move away from pain a lot easier than we do towards pleasure. But many times we only use pleasure as the incentive for us to do something. And a lot of times I'm working with some basic activities with somebody. One of the things that you can see it here in the video, if you're watching it, is my incredible results, 928 Challenge Journal, which is basically spending about 20 minutes each evening documenting what happened today, well, as planning tomorrow. And the first challenge that people come up with is doing it every day. So far, nobody has done ninety one days straight. There's a few that have come close. But on average, it takes people a good month to get into the habit of consistently writing in their journal. And so, again, it's about understanding what it takes to get people to move in the direction they have said they want to go and using those two buttons and pushing them at the right point to get things to to happen. And again, once we start getting that ball rolling and we start developing momentum, that's when it gets fun. Joe: So we are in the age of so many, like self education, know so many programs and classes and courses and all of this stuff on the Internet, right. You can find it everywhere. So and you might even admit to this yourself, because based on what you just said about having a shelf full of tapes and all of this stuff, what would you say to the there are people out there that are professional seminar attendees right there, their professional course. So, Brian: We call them seminar junkies. Joe: Ok, so Brian: Yeah, Joe: We Brian: I've been there. Joe: Ok, so this is good because you're coming from the understanding that Brian: Oh, yeah. Joe: One more seminar, a one more class or one more course is not going to make the difference. It's that you have to start implementing what you've already learned and actually admit to yourself that you haven't done the work or this is the work you need to do and actually come up with a plan. Right. It's just like we hear it a million times. It's just so hard for people to understand, myself included. I'm not I'm not preaching from a soapbox here that, you know, you have to have a roadmap. Right. Because if you wanted to get hop in your car today and drive somewhere, you need to know where you're going. Right. You would get lost. Brian: Yes. Joe: It's no different Brian: Yes. Joe: With our life. Right. So what would you say to those people that are listening to that do continue to just think that that next breakthrough is around the corner by buying yet another course are going to some sort of seminar or conference? Brian: Put down the Kool-Aid because you have drunk the Kool-Aid, Joe: Right. Brian: What they're actually doing is they're pursuing the feeling, the positive feelings they get when they go to the seminar. They're enjoying that high and over time that wears off and they want to change the way they feel. They get frustrated and they go, oh, I want to feel better. Their subconscious then says, OK, well, how do we make ourselves feel? How we do that? Let's go to another seminar. I talk about this in the master class. That is, we get stuck on this learning loop and we go and we learn some information. We get all excited and we go try it and we fail. And usually when we fail once or twice, we quit. It gets hard. It gets uncomfortable. And we don't like to stay there. We don't like we don't we want to don't want to go through that process of learning how to do it and do it long enough to get good enough at it that we actually get to the other side of. OK, I got this. You know, it's like learning to ride a bike. You're going to fall and the only way to get better is to have somebody let go in and you fall down. You got to go through that process. You've got to learn to you have to make the mistakes. You have to, quote, fail, because, again, it depends on how you define the word failure, because at the end of the day, we get to choose what things mean. My definition of failure is different than most people's. My definition of failure is you only fail when you quit or give up. Joe: Hmm, agreed. Brian: Or you don't even try. Joe: Yeah, so it's almost better that if someone had that itch, they should stop for a moment and say, OK, let's do this, let's just try something completely different that we've never done before. Let's actually hire a coach and spend the same amount of money that we would have spent on a course. But we have a coach with us by our side for however many months or a year or whatever, however long that is. That same amount of money could be spread out to have someone keep you accountable and help you to come up with a plan and stay on track and implement all the ideas. Right. Brian: Absolutely. Joe: It would be worth a try for anybody who's one of these. You could Digicom junkies to seminar junkies. Brian: Yeah, the seminar junkies, Joe: Yeah, Brian: Yes. Joe: Right. So it would be a change? Brian: What's Joe: Of course Brian: The Joe: It would Brian: Right Joe: Be. Brian: If what's your outcome? What do you want? Why are you going to that seminar? And there were several times where people said, well, what are you what do you expect from this? What do you want to learn from this? And people are sitting there throwing out answers. And I would be sitting in the background going, I really don't know. I don't I don't have an answer for that. Joe: Mm hmm. Brian: And that was kind of the clue is like, wait a minute, why am I here? Because I want to learn. That's not good enough. I want you to know I started getting specifics is I want to learn how to do such and such and such, and I want to be able to, you know, be successful at doing that. And, you know, whether that was real estate investing or personal development becoming a coach, a lot of those things was, OK, how do you do it? Because, again, we're learning about doing and we learn through doing much more powerfully. There's a difference between head understanding and gut level understanding. And so, first off, a coach, if you haven't had a coach before. I'll share a good story with you, because this is how I got introduced to coaching was I actually bought the up sell of a seminar program that actually included six monthly coaching sessions with one of the coaches that's kind of designed to help you do it. And my experience was I actually got more done in those six months than I had in the previous five years. I did more stuff. I made more progress. And as I went back and analyzed the even deeper, I did more the week before that phone call that I had the previous three weeks combined because I knew I was going to have to get on the phone with him. And again, we're leveraging fear and that pain to our advantage. That's one of the reasons why I wrote my last book on Leisure Fear. One of the strategies that I teach is how to make your friend and how you make sure your friend, as you turn fear around, it's pulling you forward instead of holding you back. Brian: And one of the ways that we do that, as we make it more painful to stay where you are than where you want to go and having to get on the phone call with me or on the Zoom call with me. And we sit in there and says, OK, Joe, you said last week you were going to accomplish these three things. How how far did you get on number one, how far did you get on number two? How far did you get on number three? Now, I don't beat you up if you don't get them done. What I'm doing is I'm wanting to get under neath it and understand the root cause of what's holding you back, because when I when we're able to do that, you see hole that was fear of criticism. That's what prevented me from making those sales calls. I needed to make up for the fear of rejection or whatever it was. And we talk about that. And then we because again, we get to choose what things mean. And so what does it mean to make a cold call? Most people hate cold calls. What if you could turn things around to where you loved cold calls? Because, again, you get to choose what things mean. You can love cold calls. And so, again, it's basically going in there and playing in the mind and shifting away the what the beliefs are, because that's what it comes down to it. That's what our life is all about, is how we feel and what we believe. And when we understand that we do everything in life to change the way we feel. It's really interesting on where things go from there. Joe: Yeah, and I think either I think I read something from your website, I believe, but something you said, I think that's where it was, but it was something about the moment we actually tell the world what it is that we want to do. We're accountable for it. Right then we everyone that that was in earshot of that or reads it somewhere on our website that we're now responsible to do it. And that's why so many people don't actually put that out there, because then they're like, oh, crap, I actually have to do that now. I said it. Brian: Right, Joe: I told Brian: Yeah. Joe: Everyone I was going to do this. Brian: But you're right, it comes down to we are afraid to put ourselves out there Joe: Mm hmm. Brian: Because we're afraid of being criticized now, we do have different types of people in our lives. We have people that I refer to as Krabs, and they're usually in your left hand. For those people who haven't heard the story, I'm sure you have. Is it if you put a crab in a five gallon bucket without a lid on it, it'll crawl out right Joe: Mm hmm. Brian: Easily. But if you put two crabs into that five gallon bucket without a lid, they won't crawl out. The more actually, the more crabs that are in there, the less likelihood that the crab is going to get away, because as that crab, they're programming mental instinct programming that we have within us is that to stay part of the group to follow the herd. Joe: Mm hmm. Brian: And if somebody is trying to climb out, they're going away. And so the rest of the group will pull them back down. And if he continues to do that time and time again, they will actually kill him. Joe: Oh, I didn't know that part of the story. Brian: Yes, well, the same thing is true with other people in our lives. We have people that are on the same level that we are or below us and we're wanting to grow. Now, that doesn't mean that they have negative intentions. They're actually doing it for a positive reason because, one, they don't want you to leave them, but they also don't want to see you get hurt. This is where our family comes in. Parents say, oh, you just sit still, Johnny, because you're not ready for that yet, or they don't want you to go pursue this thing that they perceive as scary, risky, and you're likely to get hurt. And so they're going to try to talk you out of going in, pursuing your great dream. But then there's other people that, again, they're just going to knock you down, they're going to pull you down. And if you've ever listened to Lester Brown, he talks about that and his family, he'd show up for Thanksgiving. And his brother goes, Hey, Les, how's that seminar speaking gig going? And it was almost I'm getting there. I'm getting there. I'm getting there. But we also have people that want to support us and help us. And so it's who are you going to listen to and who are you going to spend time with? And so but it's also important to be in that group of people. Brian: Your support people are in your right hand, your crabs are in your left hand. It's important to know who the person you're across the table with and who you're talking with on the phone. Is this person a crab or is this a supporter and then interact with them appropriately? Because if you're talking with a crab, you stay in the shallow end. You don't talk about your dreams. You talk about the weather, you talk about sports, you talk about whatever that is dull and boring at the time and not really enlightening to us, but allows us to maintain the relationship because there's times in our life when, yes, we can eliminate some of those crabs because other times they're related to us and we can't get rid of them. And so what do you do? So in part of it is, one, you reduce the amount of time, and then two, you understand who you're having the conversation with and understand they're coming to you with a positive intent. They're trying to keep you safe. They're trying to they want you to be happy and they want you to stay well and they don't want you to get hurt. But the same thing is true with our subconscious, which is why our biggest enemy is right up here Joe: Yep. Brian: Is the robot that runs the show 80 to 90 percent of the time. And that's where I spend a lot of time, is helping people reprogram the robot, their subconscious, because unfortunately, it was a program with a lot of crappy code and trying to reprogram it is not as easy as copy, delete and then copy and paste. It's not that easy. It's like the biggest, ugliest ball of spaghetti you've ever seen and trying to figure out where that thing goes. And it's a mess. It's just a mess in there. And but we do have the ability to go in there and change it. And the more we actively pursue that and focus on that and pursue growth, the faster we can get to where we want to go. Joe: So we're going to talk about the services you offer, but you touched upon something that in a previous episode that I had put out, I got a lot of comments about it. And so I want to talk about it as it relates to you personally. And then we can talk about how you use it with your clients. But you spoke about journaling. And the more and more I hear, either I have guest on or I hear people talk about it, the more and more I feel like it's almost got the same benefits as when people talk about meditating, how you can quiet the mind. It was all this fufu stuff many years ago and now it's becoming more the norm. Right? It's something that you need that quiet time. So tell me more about what you think journaling does for people and the importance of journaling Brian: Ok, well, Joe: And Brian: Actually. Joe: Whether or not you actually do it nightly or daily or I'd be Brian: Yes, Joe: Interested to know. Brian: Yes, the the if you can see it there, it says, a life worth living as a life worth recording. And so, Tony, he's inspired me to consistently journal. I have journals from my first in fact, in my latest move, I was going through a lot of them. And I came across the journal that I had right after college. And I was actually really interested to go back and see the progress of my first sales job that I bombed out. I lasted like three months. My experience was the story I was telling myself was different than the story that I was reading. And so, one, it's a great way to document your journey in life. But the way that I teach people to journal No. One is it leverages the power of evaluated experience because you stop and think about it. You probably have heard that experience is the best teacher. Yes and no, because unless we learn the lessons from that experience, then it was pointless. If we keep repeating the same mistakes over and over again, we keep doing the same thing and expect different results. We're not learning. We're not growing. And so journaling is a great way for you to document your journey, but also to stop and evaluate what happened today. What did I get done? Because many times we get to the end of the week, we get to the end of the month. Man, I feel like I didn't get anything done. And you can go back to the daily journal process and go, oh, yeah, well, I did that and I did that and I did that and I did that. Brian: But it also allows you to say, OK, what am I actually getting done? And is what I'm getting done, moving me in the direction I want to go? Because, again, we've talked about the journey that we're on. We have a goal we want to achieve. And in order to get there, we like you said, we have to have a plan. Many people don't put together the plan. In fact, many go study programs. And I listen to rarely was there any planning process involved. And so I actually stepped somebody through this. Exactly. And the incredible results on what they challenge is Ugo's. We set our big yearly goal and we break that down into what are we going to accomplish in the next ninety one days and then we break that down. This is OK. What's going to be month one? What's going to be month two? What's going to be month three? And then we break that down. OK, what's going to be week one of month one. What's going to be in week two. Week three, week four. Because again, the only way to get to complete the ninety one day journey is to each day make forward progress. And how do you make sure you're making forward progress if you never look at the map and compare your results, what you're getting to see if you're moving in the right direction. Brian: It's like a airplane taking off from New York to L.A. without a GPS system, without a method for them to course. Correct. You know, there's a reason why there's a compass in the airplane. There's a reason why there's a GPS in there that's consistently every moment checking in and saying, am I on track? Am I on track and making those little minor adjustments along the way? Because if you actually look at a slight wiggle from L.A. to New York, because there's turbulence up there, there's wind currents up there, lots of different things depending on which way you're flying. Are you flying with the jet stream or against the jet stream? All of these things are impacting that flight. The same thing is true in our life. How do we make sure we are on target? And journalese is one of the ways to do that. But we also encourage people. The way that the journal is set up is to do that evaluation experience where you document what you got done, you documents your lessons along the way, and you also document the changes that you want to make, the adjustments that are going to make tomorrow a better day. How can I be better tomorrow? And then you plan tomorrow. One of the biggest challenges we have is making sure we get the right stuff done. How do you make sure you make time to get those important but not urgent activities into your schedule? Because if you do not intentionally plan them and schedule them into your calendar, rarely, very rarely are they going to actually happen, which means you're never going to really make the progress you want to make, because stop and think about it, your goals require a lot of time and energy doing those things that are important but not urgent, which is another reason why having the accountability is a big factor in that. Brian: It's like, OK, it's it's not urgent, but oh, my coach is going to be asking about it. What do we just do? We created the needed urgency. Give you a perfect example. I had one of my clients. She wanted to raise her rates and so she'd been talking about it for months. And so we were working on the programming in her head so that she felt like she was worthy of that price increase, putting it off and putting it off. And this is OK, put and says, OK, what's the plan? And so we specifically detailed walk through the plan. OK, I need to put a sign up on the door and I need to send out a notification of my. People and I got an email and, you know, here's an opportunity for people to come in and sign up for a plan where they can lock in the current pricing. And I says, OK, when I come see you next week, I want to see the sign on the door. When you think you put the sign on the door right after that call, Joe: Ten minutes Brian: 15 Joe: Before Brian: Minutes Joe: You showed Brian: Before Joe: Up. Brian: I 15 minutes before I walked in the door. Exactly. And it wouldn't have happened if I had not pushed her to make that commitment. As a mom, what are we going to do? Are we just going to keep going down this road? Because that's one of things that we do, is we look at it, says, OK, what happens if you don't change? If you keep doing the same thing you're doing today over and over again, you're going to get the same results. Are you happy with that? Are you satisfied with it? If you're not, then what are you going to do differently tomorrow? That's going to change. The trajectory that you're going internally is a big piece of that is to help make sure that you are documenting your journey and you're evaluating the experiences that you're getting and making sure that they're taking you in the direction you want to go and if it's not making those adjustments along the way. Joe: Is the majority of the time it happens is at night, just before you go to bed sort of thing. Brian: One of the things that we designed the system to be very flexible. There's actually a place for people to write in their schedule and there's no numbers on it because I've got clients. It's wake up at five o'clock in the morning and then there's guys like me who don't start their day until seven, but I'm usually up till midnight. So, again, it just comes down to fitting it into your system. And that's actually one of the things we do within the group coaching calls is we're saying, how do I take this system that Brian has created and apply it to my life? How does this fit into my life? And we teach people how to do that. And I've got one client who does restoration work. So he's very much like a firefighter. The phone rings and it's like the alarm bell going off. He's got to go fix somebody's problem. So how does he schedule his day? And so we came up with a system on how to use the system because what happens if the alarm doesn't go off? What are you going to do? So we had a plan, a system and a Plan B system Joe: Mm Brian: For Joe: Hmm. Brian: It. We recommend the Evening Times for a couple of reasons. Number one, when you're planning tomorrow, you don't have to remember it. Actually, you get a better night's sleep. Joe: I get it off your brain. Brian: Right, and so your brain, is it trying to remember all the things you've got to do tomorrow? We also encourage now I have some people completed at their end of their workday. So at four thirty, when they go home at 5:00, I've got one woman who does it at three thirty before she go pick up her kid at school at 4:00 and she's basically document what did I get done? And she's also there's still some things potentially that she's going to do because we incorporate not just your business, but your life in the journal. And so it's like, OK, what am I going to be doing for all 16 hours? And I'm awake and relax and let go because so many times we struggle with constantly running. And there's a reason why there's a pad of paper and a pen on my bedside is because there's a lot of times I wake up in this ideas and I got to sit there and I get to write it down because I will not remember when I wake up in the morning. And so it just comes down. We try to get the system to fit the person, not the person to fit the system Joe: Mm hmm. Brian: Like so many of them do. But at the end of the day, it comes down to what works for you. We recommend in the evening because of the benefits there. There are some people that do it first thing in the morning. If that's the case, as long as you're doing the system, great. Joe: I just hear about it all the time, and I said I was going to start it after the last episode, that someone who was heavily into it, I even publicly said, all right, I got to start doing it and I still haven't done it. Brian: Well, let's have a conversation about that, Joe, because, again, at the end of the day, it's what is it going to take to get you to move? Joe: Yeah. Brian: And that's actually something that because, again, I've got numerous stories that I can tell you about people that because one of the one of the most common mistakes that people make when they're doing the journal is the fact that they only do it Monday through Friday. They don't do it Saturday, Sunday, because, again, like the woman who does it at the end of the workday, my question to them is, OK, that's good. But what are you going to do, come on Saturday, Sunday when you're not going to the office? What are you going to do then? And so we create a plan on how and then we got to you got to figure out how to make it work. And so I actually challenged several of the people to do it, says, OK, if you don't in. The other thing is, is not getting the journal done. The night before it was OK. If you don't do the journal the night before, you have to spend two minutes on a cold shower in the morning. I don't know about you, but yes, they talk about cold showers being this great, wonderful thing. But I don't want that in the morning. No, thank you. And so, again, we move away from paying much better than the the perceived pleasure. OK, and so it's creating the pain. So it was like, OK, you don't do the journal, not before you're going to take a cold shower or I mean, really what I would do is I give them a choice. I says you can either a take the cold shower or B, you have to text me that says I didn't do my journal last night. Which one do you think people chose? And I said, OK, those are your two choices. You have to choose the greater pain. Which one do you think they chose as the greater pain? Joe: I would think having the texture would be more of the pain. Brian: Yes, Joe: Yeah. Brian: Because that is admitting Joe: Yeah, Brian: That they failed, Joe: Yeah. Brian: Which just goes to show you the level of programming we have around failure. And so, again, it's using fear and pain to move you in the direction you want to go. Joe: All right, a lot to unpack there. So we only have a little bit of time left and I want to honor your time. So let's do this first. Let's talk about I have for services written down that you offer. And you might have added one. You might have taken one away. But I have your one on one coaching. I have the ninety one day challenge. I have the mastermind and then I have your weekly accountability coaching. And so can you just briefly give us an explanation of those. And if I missed one at it and if you're not doing one of them, take it away. Brian: Ok, well, as a coach, I need I don't know where you are, so I don't know which service to offer you or which one is the right fit for you, Joe: Mm hmm. Brian: You or your listener. And so I really start with what I refer to as a discovery session where we sit down and talk about where you are and where you want to go. And then based upon that conversation, we determine how to best help you. Now, where do people usually start? But most people start with the incredible results, starting with their challenge, because it is the one skill that helps people take the action they know they need to be taking that will help them reach their goals. And they see tremendous immediate results, positive results and benefits from participating in the program. And it's one that it's only one hundred and ninety seven dollars if somebody wanted to participate in it. But you got to come through me and do that discovery session in order to determine whether or not that's the good right fit for you. The other thing that is like rocket boosters on the on any one day challenge is the weekly accountability coaching calls and the incredible results. And what a challenge. We do a group coaching call where we are sitting down and we are we're talking how to help use the system, how to get the system to work and fit into your life, and how to help you consistently take action on it. But we also help you with your plan on accomplishing your ninety one day goal. So if your goal is to get 50 new clients, this is OK. What are you doing this week that's going to make you more clients? And we're talking about those different activities in those different ideas and strategies. Brian: So the problem is, is there's anywhere from five to 15 people on that call, depending on how many people are actually in the group at one time. And so it comes down to how do you get enough of my time to where we can truly focus on that programming piece that we've talked about, which is such a big, ugly mess that gets in the way all the time. That is where that one on one time comes in to, where we actually spend 30 minutes specifically talking. We it's a very specifically designed program, says, OK, here's what I'm going to do. Here's what I got done. Here's what I learned. And here's the changes I'm going to make so we can review that in eight to ten minutes pretty quickly. And then we spend the next twenty minutes digging into what got in the way. What's the challenge and struggle you're dealing with right now? That's either the bitch that you're in, the roadblock you're facing, or what's holding you back from moving forward. And that right there is tremendously powerful and makes the ninety one day challenge much more successful. And people who are participating in both their results that they get in and I know they challenge is heads and shoulders above the people that are just in the program by itself. Joe: Yep, and I have to ask this, because I'm sure if I was listening to this, it would be driving me nuts the entire time. It's like, why ninety one days? It's not 60, 30, 90, 120. Brian: It's seven times 13 is 91, seven days for 13 weeks. Joe: Steamworks got it. Brian: So because, again, one quarter is three months, which is four point three weeks, and so it's to get a full 13 weeks is ninety one days. Joe: Perfect. So we covered that and the Brian: Ok, Joe: Weekly accountability and then Brian: Right. Joe: The one on one coaching is. Brian: The one on one coaching I refer to I refer to as my general coaching, and that's where somebody is really wanting to grow and make changes. And a lot of times people will start off there. And again, they're wanting to do a lot of growth and unpacking and deal with the programming issues that are going on. And they're wanting to make some significant changes. Those are one hour sessions and those are usually each week as well where we're digging in and we're trying to figure out again, we're making some serious shifts in there. And then a lot of times it's like, OK, we got them straightened out and we got them on a path. We've created the plan. We've got the momentum going now and it's starting to move forward. And a lot of those people will roll into the accountability coaching so that they have the regular check ins that are getting done what they want to get done, but they don't need to necessarily. OK, let's dive in deep in there and start digging around. Those are wonderful sections. I love doing them, but they take a lot of energy on both myself as well as the person because we're going deep. Know, one of the things that you probably have learned by now listen to this is I don't like to play in the shallow end. I like to dive deep and I like to go under the covers. And if people aren't, that's the other thing is if you've got to be comfortable in playing in the deep end and there's a lot of times when my role as a coach is not to tell somebody what to do, I almost never do that because who's an expert on Joe and Joe's business, Joe is right. So my role is to ask you the questions that is going to help you come up with the answers and solutions to the problems that you're faced with that external perspective and to help you come up with the solution that is within yourself and that the mastermind is more Joe: That's Brian: At the upper Joe: Ok. Brian: Level Joe: Ok. Brian: And that right now is closed. So people are not available into that. And usually what happens is we start people off in the 90s when they challenge and there's those people are rolling up into that mastermind as they complete the 91 day challenge. Joe: Scott. Brian: But we start people off with where they are and what they can afford of what they need to do. And so we have programs that start, like I said, at one hundred dollars a month, up to twenty five to five thousand dollars a month, depending upon which program you're involved with. And there are other things that I do. I have mentioned Tony Robbins, but I have not mentioned John Maxwell, most certified coach, trainer and speaker of the John Maxwell team, which means for those people who are not familiar with John Maxwell, he's a world renowned leadership expert. And that was one of the big challenges that I saw was there was a lack of quality leadership in our world today. And because my target market is that small business owner, entrepreneur and professional, they have never really had much experience with leadership training. But again, I'm not a leadership trainer. I'm a leadership developer. And so we have leadership programs using John's world class material that over a period of 90 days, we teach you the strategies and you practice them for ninety one days so that you develop those skill sets along the way. And so, again, it depends upon where you are and what you need and what tool is necessary to help you fix the problem that you're up against. Because again, I use Stephen Covey, I use Joe Mitali. I will pick from anybody I need to and I will claim that everything that I share didn't originate with me. Brian: I'm standing on the shoulders of the giants that went before me as far as you know, all the way back to the Greeks, Aristotle and and some of those, because they had it first. They they mentioned it. And again, everybody since then is really just repackaging it from there. And if somebody wants to do a DIY version of it, pick a great book. Napoleon Hill's was probably the the godfather of personal development or at least modern person development with they can grow rich. And one of my mentors actually went and read the book and studied it over and over and over again. You probably have heard the suggestion that you should go read a book a week or so, go read 50 bucks a year. Right. I challenge you. That's not the right strategy if you're wanting to grow. It's a great way to learn information. But if you're wanting to make changes in your life. Yeah, one great book and read it 50 times, study it, do the exercises at the end of the chapter, implement the strategies. Another great one is Stephen Covey's Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. That that book still to date. That's one book I try to read at least once a year. And I'm usually listening to it because I'm taking advantage of the windshield time that I have. And it seems like there's always something more in there. Brian: That book is so deep and there's so many different levels that you can get into it as you grow. There's another level. There's another level. There's another level, which is how I spend a lot of my time. Yes, I have three different coaches and I'm constantly consuming more and more material. But there are there's about ten different books that I try to spend time reading consistently because they're the road maps, they're the foundational skills. And it's going to take for me to get to where I want to go. And it's only through consistently coming back to it. You don't become a master blackbelt by learning how to do the form and doing it perfectly. One time I believe it was Berklee that said, I don't fear the man that knows ten thousand ticks. I fear the man that is practiced one kick ten thousand times in the story that got you the story and the rest of the story was the example of that was he says will show me. And and basically what it was is because that person had practice that kicks so well. It doesn't matter if even if you know it's coming, you can't block it, you can't stop it. He has mastered how to do it regardless of what you do to counteract that. The only way to not get kicked is to not get into the fight. Joe: So. We're over a little bit, we have a few more minutes. Brian: Oh, yeah, I'm good. Joe: Ok, cool. So I want to ask you about because you mentioned since we're on the subject of books and you mentioned Joe Vitale and you were you are part of a book called The Abundance Factor. Brian: Yep. Joe: Can you tell me a little bit about that and how that came about and. Brian: Well, I was on the short list as Joe was looking to write his next compilation book, and I had been following him, been a fan of him, read a number of his books. I still practice one of one of the big things that sticks for me from Joe is the story of Hopital Pono. If you have not read the book Zero Factor, I highly recommend it. It's a very fascinating book. The mantra that that book teaches is something that actually helps me go to sleep at night because my brain has a hard time shutting down. And by saying that for phrase mantra helps my it's kind of a signal to my brain to stop thinking and go from into my head and into my body. And so it's really helpful there. And so I was on the short list of authors that Joe asked to help participate in that book. It's called The Abundance Factor. I knew the group of people that were pulling together. And so my chapter is called The Unpleasant Truth, because, again, there's a lot of people out there teaching because we're talking about the mindset of abundance, which is something that a lot of people struggle with. But it's hard for people to actually do it and practice it consistently. And that's really what my chapter was about. It was about taking the actions that the book is encouraging you to take. And so that's what my chapter is in that book. April of the year that it came out, we did hit the Amazon bestseller list with that book at the time. And it's been a great book. And I use it more of a as a calling card and as an introduction to myself when I'm meeting new people. Joe: And then you mentioned earlier about a book that you wrote that I did not actually see in my notes. So can you tell me about that? Right. Was Brian: Ok, Joe: There. Brian: I've written three books. Joe: Ok. Brian: The first book is called Ready, Set Succeed, which is a self published book. Again, it was another compilation with a series of different authors. And I've got several boxes of those still today that, again, I use them as is handouts. And it's, again, about taking action because again, that's what I saw people struggle with and implementation because again, at the end of the day, it's ready, set, succeed, go. You've got to get moving. And so we were all writing the chapter based upon that. It was a self published book. The only way that you can get that is to go through me to get that I'm aware of. And I actually did have a client come to me through that book for one of the other offers. They got it. They called me up and that chapter resonated with them. And it was an opportunity for me to help them out. Then we wrote The Abundance Factor, and then after that we wrote a book called Unleash Your Fear. And that book is available right now. You can go to unleash your fear dot com and get a copy of that. Right now, at this point in time, it is about a 40 page e-book. You can get a copy were actually read it to you for in about an hour. Brian: But that's one of our projects for the rest of this year, is to work on rewriting that book and expanding it to where it's around a hundred pages and we turn it into a physical book and using that as a methodology to share that message. Because as we've gone back and we've we've shared that message, we teach in a very powerful concept in that book about the relationship that people have with fear, because right now most people have a lousy relationship with fear. But fear is just a tool that's used by our subconscious. And our subconscious causes us problems because it's designed not to make us happy. It's not designed to make us successful. It's designed to make us survive. Problem is, when we do go out there, when we want to grow, when we want to succeed and we want more, it sees that as not surviving. That's risky. There's pain out there if we pursue those things. So how do we how do we change that? How do we work on that? That's what I've understood from the people that have read the book, that a lot of people enjoyed it and you can actually still get it for free for a little bit longer. Brian: We're in the process of getting that changed. You can go to unleash your fear Dotcom and get a copy of that book there. And once we get the expanded version, we will still be using that. You are all along the way. And so in this process, we've got a lot of great tools that are available to you. And we've talked about a lot. Joe, you're actually one of the longer podcasts that I've gone on and we've talked about a lot of different things. But one thing we haven't talked about is one of the foundations that I used for my coaching, which I refer to as the Five Keys of Success. And that's actually a podcast that I do called the Five Keys of Success podcast. And you can go out there to wherever you get your podcasts and Google five Keys successor Brian Lovegrove, and you'll be able to find it. And I talk about those five keys, because at the end of the day, because, again, I've been doing personal development for decades now. And so I boiled down all of that stuff to what is the true fundamental foundational skills and tools you need. And I came up with those five keys. You want to know what those five keys Joe: I Brian: Are? Joe: Do, I have actually you were not going to get off this podcast without talking about it, so I have them here. I still have other stuff. That's why I like that. Yes. So please, I totally want to these this is like one of the things that really triggered it. When I wanted to have you on as a guest, I'm like, man, I want to know what those are. Brian: Well, the five keys of success, the first key is clarity, and I refer to it as get clear because without clarity, you're lost, you're wandering around in a fog. If you don't have a destination, you're never going to be able to get there. And if you don't know where you are, how do you know how you're going to go from where you are to where you want to go? And we talked about the plan. If you are not clear on the plan on how to achieve your goal, you're not going to get there now. But there's some also challenges with that piece because, again, a lot of people may not necessarily know how to get to that point, but do you know how to get started? Because that's the key. Do you know what the next step is? How many people get bogged down with steps? Nine hundred and eighty seven through steps. Twelve hundred and eighty four. Well, what steps do you want? I'm on step five. What step six. I don't know. Focus on step six, seven, eight, nine. OK, focus on what's in front of you and these other steps you will figure out by the time you get to that point. The second key is commitment because without commitment we cave in to the fear. We don't have the motivation, the energy and the power to keep going when things get. And the analogy that I love to use is the story about Cortez. When he landed in The New World, he burned his boats. His men woke up the next morning and they went in. He addresses many gentlemen. There is no way home that we do not create for ourselves. And so his small band took on and conquered much larger nations and groups of people in South America because they were committed to making it happen because it was either do or die. Joe: I'm a big fan of burning the boats, by the way. Brian: Absolutely, that's one of the podcasts that we did, is, OK, how do you burn the boats? Joe: Yeah. Brian: And we kind of walk through that exercise and that's that can be a whole coaching process. My story around that was I used to weigh two hundred and sixty pounds and I went on a diet and I lost thirty five pounds in the first month and a half. It was a radical diet. And one of the things that I did on the back deck in the fire pit is I burn my fat jeans and I actually have a picture of you. It's it's at night. You can all you can really see the flames. You can barely make out the jeans as part of the picture. But I vividly remember that process. And I promised myself I would never buy that size pair of clothes ever again. Now, have I been able to keep off all the weight that I lost? No. But when my pants get tight, that option is not there. Joe: Yeah. Brian: It's like, OK, we got to do something, we got to turn this around because we are not buying a bigger sized pair of pants. And so, again, that's where that burning the boats actually comes in, which leads us to step three, which is get crankin or get busy taking action. Money talks about taking massive action. And, you know, how many times have I you know, I've tried everything. Really? How many times have you tried? What have you tried? A hundred things.

Victoria: Hey everyone, it's Sensei Victoria Whitfield here, your journey partner in business, welcoming you back to episode 163 of the Journeypreneur Podcast. This is your source for channeled holistic stress management techniques, guidance, inspiration and motivation to stay on your path to rapid financial ascension and massive impact as a conscious entrepreneur. So in today's podcast episode, I have the honor and pleasure of getting to introduce you to a good friend of mine, Brian Rassi. He is a business funding frickin angel, like he helps you find the money that you need to make big shift happen. You can find him at enstigate.com. Brian, welcome to the podcast, brother. Brian: Oh, my goodness. Victoria, I'm ready to roll. Thank you for having me. For you and the audience. I'm excited to be here. Victoria: It's such a pleasure to get to have you. Yeah. Thanks for being here. So let me be the very first time that someone is getting to see you or hear of you and what you do in the world. So if you could, in your own words, share with us what exactly it is that you do and especially what are the three things that you're known for? Could you tell us? Brian: Yes, we helped conscious entrepreneurs and business owners access the line with their right end result, access more capital and ultimately create a proprietary custom business solution for them. So we literally do it all from start to finish to craft the solution that they need to get to the next level. Victoria: This is so powerful because, you know, and I'm a visionary entrepreneur, I attract a lot of visionary entrepreneurs and we have big visions of what has got to happen. But we can have this experience of getting cash strapped or thinking that, you know, if it is to be, it's up to me. It's only dependent upon my own bank account or my own ability to generate the funding to back up that vision. And it's a real tragedy that so many people and so many businesses fail because of a lack of funding. Would you agree? Brian: Oh, absolutely. I think people are trained either subconsciously or unconsciously to plan their dream business or their vision off their current bank account. And that's very limited. That's a very limiting way to create anything. And so what we try to do is try to victory, help them, give them the framework and get them the ideas to dream and possibilities and get out of that limitation and actually create the dream business. And a funny thing happens when you get aligned with that end result. The money just has a funny way of showing up at the right time, in the right way, with the right people to get you where you want to go. So it first starts with you got to have the vision. - Let's talk about it! Feel like you've got a Money Block stopping or slowing your business growth?  Need help clearing that block, so that you can get your next-level abundance breakthrough?  Take the assessment at http://www.victoriawhitfield.com/quiz to find out, and apply for a Breakthrough Call with me!

Who is behind the voice of our podcast introduction? Who edits The VBAC Link podcast episodes? Meet Brian Albers, The VBAC Link's secret weapon! Listen to this episode to find out why Brian has earned this title time and time again. We also learn some fun secrets and ask him some of your burning questions. But in all seriousness, we are SO grateful for all Brian does for us. He is a quality, genuine guy that they just don't make these days anymore!   Additional linksThe VBAC Link on Apple PodcastsHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsThe VBAC Link Community on FacebookThe VBAC Link ShopFull transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. Meagan: All right, you guys. Guess what? This is an episode that I know you guys have all been waiting for since we posted a picture of our secret weapon wearing, “Don't be all up in my perineum.” If you haven't seen the post, go scroll back in our Instagram. We have Brian, who is our secret weapon. Julie started calling him that, I don't know, forever ago.Julie: Because he is.Meagan: He really is. He has proven it. So we today are going to be recording an episode about Brian. Brian is the voice of our intro on our podcast. Review of the WeekMeagan: We have a review, and Julie is the best review reader. We all know this. I can't read.Julie: Oh my gosh.Meagan: She can. So Julie, go ahead and read your review. I hope you picked a big one. I think strategically, you probably pick the big ones knowing that I can't read them.Julie: Yeah. That's exactly what I do, actually. I pick the bigger ones and leave the smaller ones for you.Meagan: I always hope. I always hope.Julie: We have so many. I don't even think we are going to get through them all, so I am trying to pick more recent ones because I know that you pick older ones and so I feel like maybe we have a little bit of both worlds in our review reading. All right. This review is from Apple Podcasts and it's from carrie.vic so we can totally Facebook stalk her if necessary.Her title is, “OMG, the best VBAC resource out there” and then she says, “Thank you so much to Julie and Meagan for this podcast! I began listening to it right after my C-section in August 2018. Then, when I found out I was pregnant in June 2020, I re-listened to every episode. So. Much. Information. So much positivity and hope. I had my VBAC on 02/11”That was just this year.“and I don't think I could have done it without The VBAC Link. This podcast helped me ensure I had the most supportive birth team and provider, provided so much useful information, and all of these mamas made me truly believe in my capability to do this!“Thank you, thank you, thank you a million! Sending so much love to all you mamas out there! ❤️”I love the heart emojis. I love the reviews. I love carrie.vic from Apple Podcasts. Thank you so much and congratulations on your VBAC.Meagan: Yay. Congrats, congrats. I love when we hear the reviews and we don't have to go stalk them. So if you leave a review or if you have left us a review and then gone on to have your baby, let us know how things are going because we kind of stalk you on Facebook, not on Facebook Facebook but on our Facebook community to see because we love following up and hearing about the stories. So leave us a review and if you have already had your baby, drop us an email or tag us on Facebook and let us know.Julie: Yeah, because we really need closure on these things. Like the ones from last year that you read, I'm like, “Oh my gosh, they had their baby eight months ago. I don't know what happened.” Closure is always good.Meagan: Okay, without further ado, we are going to have Brian give us the intro.Brian: All right, here comes the music. You are tuned into The VBAC Link podcast with Julie Francom and Meagan Heaton, VBAC moms, doulas, and educators here to help you get inspired for birth after having had a C-section. Together they have created a robust VBAC preparation course, along with this uplifting podcast, for women who are preparing for their VBAC. Although these episodes are VBAC specific, they encourage expectant moms to listen and educate themselves on how to avoid a Cesarean from the get-go. The purpose of this podcast is to educate and inform. It is not meant to replace advice from any other qualified medical professional. Here are your hosts, Julie and Meagan after we hear from today's sponsor.Julie: “Here are your hosts, Julie and Meagan”Meagan: Yay. I love it.Julie: I love it. Brian is amazing. I call him “our secret weapon” because he is our very first person that we ever paid to do anything from The VBAC Link. He literally saved my life because when we first started, I was editing our podcast episodes using a free program that I downloaded, and every Tuesday night I would be in a rush trying to get-- I'd spend two hours editing, and trying to crop out “um's” everywhere, and putting the intro and the exit there, and get it in the right spot, and get it uploaded, and get everything posted in time for our Wednesday podcast runs, and then Meagan connected us with Brian.Meagan, you're going to have to tell the story because I don't even remember how you guys met. But then he literally saved two hours of my week and that's why he is our secret weapon. But not only that, he is our video guy. He records the videos for our courses and we also give him a whole bunch of random audio/video stuff to do here and there for us. So he is called “our secret weapon” because he saved our lives and we want to keep him nice, quietly tucked away in our own little package so nobody else can use him because he is ours.Meagan: Brian, you belong to us.Brian: Yep.Julie: We will lock you in a dungeon with a computer and some audio equipment just in case you ever decide you want to stop editing.Brian: And honestly Julie, what you described Julie, just cutting out the um's-- that's pretty much what I do. That's the bulk of it because there are so many, really.Julie: Yeah, because me and Meagan don't know how to not say “um.”Brian: Well, I mean, everybody says “um”.Julie: I know.Brian: It's just a natural, normal part of speaking, but when you're trying to present it as a podcast, you want to sound as pro as you can. And cutting out those “um's” is working towards that goal.Meagan: Yes.Julie: Yeah, and then not saying “um” is another step.Brian: Yeah.Meagan: Yeah.Julie: Maybe when we are grown up we will stop saying “um”.Meagan: It's seriously one of the most, it's one of the hardest things for me. What's funny though is I don't recognize myself saying “um” or “uhh” but I totally recognize anybody else saying “um”. I'm like, “Oh my gosh that person says--” like I recognize “um's” more, but in myself, I don't. I don't know why that's a problem.Julie: Until Brian sends us a message that says, “You guys are saying ‘um' a lot more than usual. Just pay attention.”Meagan: “Can you guys drop the ‘um's?”Julie: And then we are texting each other during podcast episodes and saying, “Oh my gosh I am saying ‘um' so much.” No, but I have learned that I replace that with “so”.Brian: Uh-huh, or “and”.Julie: Yeah. And “and”. Yeah, and “so”. That's awesome.Brian: And that's okay. That's okay too.Julie: Yeah. So let's get going. Um, we-- see? There I did. Oh my gosh, I just said it.Brian: Yep.Julie: You'll probably have to edit that out.Brian: I'll leave that one in.Julie: Yeah, you can leave that one in because, um-- oh my gosh. Now I am going to be so hyperaware. Oh, this is not going to go well.Meagan: Oh my gosh. Okay, so I was just reflecting back on how I got a hold of Brian and I feel like-- okay. So I had a client who, crazy enough, yeah. Anyway. So I had a client and he does video and then his wife does sound. I asked her, I sent her a text or something. I was like, “Hey, do you know about anybody or do you know anybody?” And she was like, “Yeah.” I can't remember if she sent Brian to me directly or if she sent me to someone else, but I'm pretty sure she sent--Brian: You're talking about Michaela, right?Meagan: Michaela, yeah.Brian: Yeah.Meagan: Michaela knew you, right? I thought she sent me directly to you. She was like, “Yeah. I know someone.”Brian: Yeah, because I work at the NPR station here in Salt Lake City and Michaela does as well. She is a weekender and that's how I know her. She still does work there and I still do work there so we still do know each other.Meagan: Yes, yes.Brian: And so she approached me and she asked me if I was interested in helping out some friends of hers start a podcast or do a podcast or something. I don't know if she just didn't have the details or just didn't give me the details, but I had no idea what anything was about. I just knew it was something about audio editing and a podcast and I said, “Yeah, sure.” I love doing audio and I love helping people if I can pursue what they want to pursue. If I can help out, I will help out. Especially when it comes out to audio stuff because I've been doing audio forever. And so I said, “Yeah. Throw them at me. Give them my email. Whatever happens, happens.” And that just got the ball rolling.Julie: And then you became our secret weapon.Meagan: Yeah. She sent me your email. That's right. I was like, “I was pretty sure it was direct.” And then I sent it to you. I remember emailing you and it was such a big step for Julie and I because Julie was our editor before and she did a wonderful job, but she was tired of it. And we are not professional. We are not professional. It's not easy.Julie: It was so much work. Oh, well and Brian can edit a podcast episode in 30 minutes that takes me two hours to do.Meagan: Unless we say “um” all the time and then it's two hours. But yeah. But no, it was just such, I don't know. The stars aligned so perfectly. I will forever be grateful for her and we are forever grateful for you, Brian, and we are so excited that you are with us.Brian: And that was when? That was the fall of 2018?Meagan: Two years, mhmm.Julie: Yeah. Right about that.Brian: And you hadn't done too many episodes before I came on board, right?Julie: I think we were 30 episodes in.Meagan: I was going to say, I think it was 30 or 40.Brian: Wow.Julie: Yeah.Meagan: We really hadn't done that many and they were a mess.Julie: Brian was like, “You guys really need to find a studio and I actually know one that might be available.”Meagan: Yeah. He's like, “You need to have better audio.” So it's just been so awesome and then we were like, “Oh, we are going to do this online course. Hey Brian, do you know how-to video?” “Yeah.”Brian: “Yeah.”Meagan: And you guys, he spent an entire Sunday--Julie: It was like, 10 hours.Meagan: Yeah. With us in an empty duplex sitting there as we were just talking about-- like seriously, yeah. It was amazing and yeah. I am so grateful for you.Brian: And actually, videoing is the easy part. It's all the editing and post-production that takes forever.Julie: And so you know so much about birth, and Cesareans, and VBAC--Brian: And do you want to know? The funny thing is when I started editing the podcast, I, first of all, didn't know it was a birth thing.(Meagan and Julie laughing)It was just a podcast. Seriously, I had no idea--Meagan: He didn't know.Brian: --what it was about until I heard the first audio. I had no idea what a VBAC was. I had no idea what a VBAC was. I had no idea what a doula was. I had to look that stuff up.Julie: And now you know way more than you ever thought you would know about birth.Brian: Oh, I know way more than I thought I would ever know.Julie: Probably way more than you would ever care to know.Meagan: You could be a doula, Brian.Julie: I want to read your bio really fast.Brian: Oh, go for it.Julie: You wrote out a really well-thought-out bio and I want to read it because I think it is transitioning to what we are talking about right now, but I want you guys to know a little bit more about Brian and then we can talk some more, and share some really embarrassing stories, and all that fun stuff.But Brian is a SoCal native which-- I did not know that about you. Meagan probably did. Meagan is a bigger people person than I am. But you moved to Salt Lake City in the summer of 2015. You are a lifelong musician and we have seen some of your stuff on YouTube. It's pretty amazing. You have been an audio engineer since the early 90s. You worked in radio, big-time nationally syndicated stuff as well as small-time local stuff as an engineer and on-air host since the mid-90s. He is currently an on-air host at 90.1 KUER NPR Utah, headquartered in Salt Lake City, heard throughout Utah, and video editor in marketing at Salt Lake community college. I did not know that either.You run Humorless Productions. That's his business name. Remote audio, video recording, and post-production, primarily concert recordings, primarily noisy undergroundy, aggressive, electronic music. Obviously, not recording too many concerts these days. You are an avid skier. I did know that. Avid road bicyclist-- also knew that, and hard-core introvert. Also knew that.And let me tell you, people, Brian‘s never married and has no kids. Brian is such-- this is why I call him “our secret weapon”, right? He literally edits a birth podcast. He has never had kids. He has never seen somebody or helped somebody have a baby, but he is sitting over here being the biggest trooper for us. He came to our first birthday party and took pictures with us in our little made-up photo booth. He is just always so willing to help out and is just so-- I don't know. I just think you are a good-quality, genuine guy. They just don't make people like you anymore. I don't know if that makes sense.Brian: Well, if you think about it though, if you put yourself in my position, I mean, I don't really have to know anything about birth specifically. I'm just doing the audio.Julie: That's true.Brian: You know? I just pull it up on my computer and put it in my editing program and start editing. At that point it's not about birth, it's about audio and it's about making the people sound good.Julie: Which you do a great job of.Brian: So the podcast could be about anything and I'm still going to do the same process.Meagan: Right.Julie: Yes.Meagan: But at the same time, you are so willing to go the extra mile to do so many other things. In fact, even wearing your “Don't get all up in my perineum” shirt.Julie: “Don't be all up in my perineum.”Brian: The perineum shirt.Julie: Actually, can we talk about that shirt? I'm going to have that available in our VBAC Link shop. So if you go to thevbaclink.com/shop, you can see exactly what we are talking about and buy your own. “Don't be all up in my perineum” shirt straight from our VBAC shop. So by the time this episode airs, I will have it up there and live for you. I am pretty sure we can include a picture of Brian rocking it. In fact, that might just be our main product image.Meagan: Yes. Yes. I love it. Okay so, Brian. What got you into-- I mean, you've been doing this for such a long time. What sparked your interest in this? Like as a kid, what did you do as a kid? Did you want to do stuff like this as a kid? Like in editing and audio and video and all that?Brian: No, I mean, as a kid, like as a teenager, I would ride my bike around the neighborhood or ride my bike just as much as I could, so that's always been a lifelong thing. I started playing guitar at 12 or 13 years old and that pretty much instantly became my main focus forever. I wasn't good at it instantly. I wasn't a prodigy, but I got fairly good at it in some short amount of time. I was sort of a natural musician. It was just a language that I understood.Meagan: Yeah, it just came to you.Brian: It just kept going and going from there. I was in bands back in the 80s which-- we didn't go anywhere. We didn't record anything. But I was always playing and I was always getting better. Eventually, the first thing I did out of high school was, I went to a guitar school in Hollywood. It's the premier West Coast guitar school via Musicians Institute and the Guitar Institute of Technology. I graduated in 1990 and from there, that's what got me interested in audio. In playing guitar, and playing with bands, and playing with other people and recording as well, I was interested to know how exactly. You know, you mic up a guitar and why does it sound different if you put the mic here or if you put the mic here? Or if you use this microphone or that microphone? I was interested in that sort of stuff. I just dove into it headfirst while all along being a musician, but also being interested in audio.Once I eventually went to proper college, I was a music major at first, but then I switched to audio engineering and graduated as an audio engineering major. That was in the mid-90s. That's when I started in radio. I eventually did my own music shows in LA and I was an engineer for some big radio shows in LA. It all just came together and that's how it's been since then.Meagan: That's awesome. I didn't know that about you.Julie: Yeah. You're pretty good at it. You've got a natural talent.Meagan: Yeah. Oh my gosh.Julie: Alright.Brian: Isn't that what they say about kids? Because I'm a middle kid. I have an older brother and a younger brother.Julie: Aw, that makes sense too.Brian: Isn't the middle kid supposed to be the artsy one?Meagan: You know, my middle kid is. She is very artsy. I mean she seriously, she was 18 months old and I remember we were in this group of people and there were some coloring books. She sat down and started coloring and this lady was like, “Oh my gosh” because she was color blending and coloring in the lines so perfectly. She was like, “What in the deal?” And then now, she can just look at something and she just draws it. And she's like, “Look, this is--”. The other day, she brought home-- it was Cat in the Hat, Dr. Seuss's birthday, or whatever, and she brings me this Cat in the Hat picture. I am like, “Oh my gosh.” She is so good that way, and then she is really good in the arts like dance, and music, and things like that. She is really good at the piano and she is six. So, yeah. I would say my middle kid is good at it.Brian: Cool.Julie: I have two middle kids and I would say my third is definitely the more artsy one. But again, they are three, four, six, and seven. My seven-year-old has really mild cerebral palsy so he has always hated handwriting. He's always hated coloring because it's hard for him because of his right hand. It's his right side that is affected. He's not severely disabled or anything. It's really, really mild cerebral palsy, but it affects his right extremities and so he is forced to be left-handed when his brain operates in a right-handed way. He's never been good at that type of thing. I wonder if that's true. I don't know. We will see. We will see as my kids get older I suppose.Meagan: So tell us something else unique that no one would know about you that we don't even know.Julie: Yeah. Behind the scenes.Brian: About me?Meagan: Yeah, because you are. Like we said, you are just like this secret weapon. You just have all of these hidden talents. What is something that you-- I don't know. What is something secret?Brian: Well, I have a good one. I don't know if I have told you before, but I lived-- so I am from Southern California. That's what I say. That is the short answer. But the long answer is I was born in San Diego and I grew up in San Diego. But I lived all of my adult life in LA and so LA feels more like my home, which sounds sort of weird than San Diego, but if you press me, if you asked me where my home city is, I will say LA. But then, I also moved to Austria twice.Julie: What?Brian: Yeah. I lived there for most of 2005 and then I moved back to LA, and then I moved back to Austria from late 2009 to late 2010, so another year there for no reason. It wasn't a work thing. It wasn't for anything, I just wanted to live there. So twice, I sold all my stuff and quit all my jobs, and moved.Meagan: Oh my gosh.Julie: Oh, to be free.Meagan: That's amazing. That's amazing.Brian: Yeah. I didn't really know the language too much. I mean, I took some classes beforehand just so I was a little bit familiar, but I went over there and that's actually where Humorless Productions started my mobile audio/video recording system. That's where I really cut my teeth because there were so many more shows over there at that time that I could record as opposed to LA, at least for the music that I was interested in recording. And so I went over there, and I brought some equipment, and I would record all sorts of shows every month. It wasn't easy, but I worked out a system. It's evolved over the years and now I have a really good system.Actually, the first time I lived in Austria was in Vienna. The second time I lived there was Linz, which is a smaller town about an hour and a half west of Vienna. But if you really asked me if there's anywhere in the world that feels more like home than anything else, I would say it's Austria.Meagan: Really?Brian: Yeah. I have five more friends even today in Austria than I do in the States.Meagan: Wow.Julie: That is super cool.Brian: Yeah.Julie: Gosh, I used to travel so much when I was single. I guess maybe it was because I was in the military. I lived in a couple of different places and then once or twice a year before I got married, I would just travel somewhere on a plane. I was just talking to Nick the other night about this and I just miss that so much. You know, you get married, and you have kids, and you're just stuck forever until your kids get old enough to travel with you. I love that.Brian: And actually when I was over there, I wasn't really intent on traveling or going around, but that just ended up where the shows were that I would record. Vienna is fairly centrally located, so I would hop on a train and go up to Prague, or Budapest, or to Venice, or to Zurich, or to Munich, or to Berlin, or wherever. So it was all sorts of fun.Meagan: That's awesome. So cool. Yep. I did not know that.Julie: Yeah. I did not know that either.Q&AMeagan: So I posted on our Instagram what questions people have for you and a couple have come in. Can I ask them to you?Julie: Yeah.Brian: Yeah.Meagan: One, what is the most interesting thing you have learned from this podcast?Brian: I've learned all sorts of stuff. What's the most interesting thing? I don't know the most interesting thing.Meagan: What's something that stands out to you that you've learned? Obviously, you learned what a VBAC is in general.Brian: Yes, in general.Julie: Maybe if somebody asked you, what is The VBAC Link? What would you say?Brian: Well, here's the thing. For anybody listening, Julie and Meagan don't necessarily want you to have a VBAC. They want you to have the birth that you want. If you want a Cesarean, that's super great. More power to you. The thing is, you're going to learn stuff. Even if you do a Cesarean, you will learn stuff for your pregnancy that will benefit you if you listen to this podcast. If you are a first-time mother, you will benefit. You will learn stuff from this podcast. It doesn't matter if you have never had a Cesarean, doesn't matter if you have never had a vaginal birth. There is just so much good information that you will learn in this podcast.Meagan: I would agree. So another question is, do you share what you have learned with any expectant parents in your life?Julie: Wait, wait, wait. Hold on a minute. Hold on a minute. Thanks for that Brian. That was really nice of you to say. I really like that.Brian: Yeah.Meagan: That really was.Julie: Thank you.Meagan: So to me, Brian, you just answered it a little bit, right? Because that's one of the most interesting things you have maybe learned, right? We're pro VBAC, obviously. That's why we are here and that's why we created the course, and the podcast, and the blogs, and all of that jazz, but you nailed it. It's not that we want you to have your VBAC. It's that we want you to have the birth experience that you want, whether that be a VBAC or not. So I totally love that so much and that seems like the answer to me too. Maybe it's not the most interesting, but it is something that you have definitely taken away and realized that through editing our podcast, that's what we are here for. That is exactly what we are here for is to help these people get the birth that they desire no matter what that may look like to them.Brian: And one other thing, it might sound like not the best way to say this, but a lot of these women who come on the podcast have learned lessons the hard way. They want to share their experiences of learning things the hard way so that other women don't have to learn the hard way themselves. You know? You never ever want to say, “Well, I told you so I told you so,” but I think that's one of the best things about this show is that women don't have to go through all the trauma and all the pain that these other women have gone through, not unnecessarily. You know how birth goes. You never can plan it out 100%.Julie: You know how birth goes now.Brian: Yeah, more than I used to.Meagan: Yeah, and I love that. Yeah. I don't think it was saying it like that or anything. It's true. We have all learned things in hard ways a lot of the time and that for sure was me with my second provider. I didn't switch and I learned the hard way to follow my gut. I didn't follow it the first time. I had to follow it the second time. I am glad that I did so I had the outcome and the experience that I had. So, yeah. I love that.Do you share what you have learned through this podcast with expectant parents in your life? Do you have many expectant parents in your life?Brian: Yeah, I would in a heartbeat. I have only had one friend who had a kid last year sometime in 2020 and I definitely recommended it to her when she was pregnant. I said, “Hey if you want to learn some stuff, listen to this podcast.” I don't know what her plans were as far as her birth plans, but yeah. I said, “There is all sorts of stuff that you will learn listening to this podcast.”Meagan: That's awesome.Brian: And she was a first-time mom.Meagan: Yeah. I know, I think that's something that is so interesting. A lot of the times it's like, “Oh, I have had a VBAC so I don't need to listen to that,” but really like you said, the first-time parents can almost learn just as much, if not more, than the people who have had Cesareans. Right?Brian: I mean, how many episodes do you have on the pelvic floor? That is something that every first-time mother can use.Julie: Yeah. At least four I think.Meagan: Exactly. Mhmm. Yeah. And chiropractic care and working through your fear.Brian: Yep.Julie: And big babies.Meagan: Oh yeah and big babies. Things like that and learning what is evidence-based. You know, we really focus on a lot of evidence-based. So yeah. I love that. I love that you referred us. Thank you for referring us. Do you know how her birth turned out?Brian: I don't know.Meagan: Did she talk to you about that? Most people, probably not.Brian: She hasn't talked to me about it. I've seen pictures of the baby on Facebook and everything looks like it's rolling just perfectly.Meagan: Going really well. That's awesome.Brian: Yep.Meagan: So you said you have two siblings. You are the middle child. Did you say, two brothers?Brian: Yes.Meagan: Are they married?Brian: Both of them are. Older brother has no kids. Younger brother has two kids.Meagan: Oh awesome. Do you know how his wife's experiences went?Brian: I don't know. I haven't asked her.Meagan: Right. It's not really something you probably would. I was just so curious if now--Brian: I mean, I don't think she'd hesitate to tell me if I asked because she's an adult. I'm an adult. Yeah. But I just haven't asked.Meagan: Yeah. Okay, what other questions do you have, Julie? Or what else do you want to tell us, Brian?Julie: I mean, I guess unless you want to embarrass us or roast us, I am so disappointed that there is not going to be any roasting. Throw us under the bus. What kind of dirt do you got on us? Tell the whole world.Brian: I don't have anything embarrassing about you. I have something embarrassing about me.Julie: Okay sure.Meagan: That's the thing is, I want to know more about you. I want this episode to be about you. So tell everyone about you.Brian: Well, here's one thing. First of all, I said in my bio there that I am a hard-core introvert and that's 100% true. This story sort of reflects that a little bit. It was when I first started the podcast. I think I had met Julie and I had met Meagan maybe once. I forget. Maybe not at all at this point, but one of you called me. I forget who it was. One of you called me on some afternoon and just wanted to say, “Hi. I just wanted to chat on the phone for a little bit.”Julie: That was definitely Meagan. I don't do things like that.Meagan: Probably me.Brian: I felt so bad because when you called me, I was at the main library and I couldn't really take a call. I couldn't really talk but I was totally whispering. I felt bad because I wanted to talk. I wanted to say “hi” but I was just not in a position where I could do any of that because there were people all around, and I was in the middle of something, and you can't make a whole lot of noise in the library. And so the call ended up being 30 seconds. It was like, “Yeah, hi. Thanks. Okay. That's cool. Okay, bye.” That was more impersonal than I usually am. You know, in the first place, I really am not the most personable person. I am not friendly at first.Meagan: Really? I think you were. You were friendly.Brian: But I felt bad about that call. But now we all hang out and we are all cool.Meagan: Yes. Now it's like, “Brian!”Julie: COVID has put a serious cramp in our style. We don't get to see you anymore.Meagan: I know.Brian: Yeah.Julie: One day. One day, maybe.Meagan: I know. COVID. Darn COVID. How've you been during COVID Brian? What have you been up to during it?Brian: It's been pretty great for me. I call it “working from home”, but at the same time I have been an essential worker at both of my jobs, and so I have really not changed my schedule at all too much. But it's been great for me as an introvert because everybody else in the office doesn't show up. They are all working from home.Julie: So you get to be all alone and enjoy being an introvert.Brian: So at both of my jobs, I pretty much have the whole building to myself. I can work at my own pace and I can play music as loud as I want. So it's been okay.Meagan: That's good. Have you taken on any side projects or anything other than everything that we send you?Julie: Everything that we send you?Brian: Everything you throw at me? No, not really. I mean, I have all my regular stuff. I have about a dozen blogs and a dozen side projects. I have always a thousand music projects at home which don't really have a deadline, so I have a mountain of stuff I can always work on. Sometimes I get to it. Sometimes I don't. Right now it is ski season, so I am skiing every Saturday and every Sunday for months on end. I am working both my jobs quite a lot these days so I don't have much time to do much of anything.Meagan: Where do you like to ski, Brian?Brian: Well, living here in Salt Lake City is pretty much the center of the universe. We have all sorts of good skiing here. I have one of those multi-resort passes so I have gone to Big Sky Montana this year. I've gone to Steamboat Springs this year. I actually have weekends coming up for both of those coming up shortly. I don't think I will hit Jackson Hole this year. I don't think I will hit Sun Valley this year. I don't think I will hit Aspen this year, but I have skied all over the West Coast.Meagan: What's your favorite resort here in Utah? What resort would you suggest of someone to come to Utah and try out?Julie: Megan is our skier. She probably wants to go catch you on the slopes one day.Meagan: Yeah.Brian: It's probably not the one that most people would come up with as the number one resort here in Salt Lake City at least, but I go to Snow Basin.Meagan: Snow Basin is awesome.Julie: I like Snow Basin.Meagan: That's the first place I go.Brian: At least for me. I was going to say, Snow Basin is better than any of the four here close to town. We have Snowbird, Alta, Brighton, Solitude. But Snow Basin is the one I prefer. Just got the best terrain for me. I am an advanced skier. I've been skiing my whole life.↔Julie: You got a lot of that in SoCal huh? Just kidding. I'm sure the slopes were amazing in Austria.Brian: Yeah. Yeah. I went skiing at St, Anton in the alps for a week. I skied Kitzbühel.Julie: Aw, what a dream.Brian: I skied the racecourse. The Hahnenkamm racecourse at Kitzbühel a week before the race. It was the day before they actually shut down the course for the race, which was totally cool. So I skied the Hahnenkamm in Austria.Julie: That's pretty cool.Meagan: That's super cool. I just started skiing this year.Brian: Really?Julie: Did you? For some reason, I thought you've been skiing for a while. I used to snowboard back in the day when I was cool and now I'm just a boring mom. I still have my snowboarding boots. I used to go to Brighton because it was the cheapest one. You could buy a half-day pass for only three of the lifts and it was only $40 instead of having to pay $90 for a full resort pass and so me and my friend would go up almost every weekend. We would go boarding and then we would go to the Porcupine Grill at the face of the canyon afterward and have nachos and hot chocolate which you wouldn't think go together but after you go snowboarding, they definitely do go together.Meagan: Oh wow. That's in my neighborhood. Yeah. No, I actually begged to snowboard as a kid. I begged my mom every year. “Mom, I want to snowboard. I want to snowboard” and she was like, “Nope, nope, nope. Too dangerous. Too dangerous” and refused. And so this year for Christmas, my husband surprised us with also a multi-pass and said, “We are--” because you guys probably know I hate winter. I hate it. I hate it. I hate being cold. I like being at the pool feeling the sun and going outside on hikes, and sports, and obviously, as of last year I really took up cycling, and so I just like to be on my bike. So yeah. “We are going to make your winter better.” I will just tell you right now, if you haven't ever skied before and you have snow In your area and you are listening, go skiing. It has changed my winter life completely. So I love that you ski, Brian. I always remember we would always try to get the podcast recorded at the end of December, or really November, so we weren't driving in the winter and we would try to get enough through February because we were like, “We don't want to drive to the studio in winter.”Julie: The studio is an hour away from my house. In some of the snowstorms, it took me two hours to get home, and then there was that one time Meagan made me run out of gas on the freeway.Meagan: Yes.Julie: That was at midnight. It was awful.Meagan: Yeah. We were recording with Brian. This is how much of a champ Brian is. He would literally stay with us at the studio until 11:30 PM. It's insane what this man does for us. So we just are overly grateful for you. But I always remember he was telling me-- I swear there was two years or something that you were like, “Yeah. I'm going to Jackson this week.” And you would go and ski in Jackson. It's one of my dreams to go and ski because we have a cabin there and now that I ski, I want to go skiing there because I have heard it's amazing. I've also heard it's pretty steep though. Is it steep?Brian: Great one. Yeah. They have something for everybody.Meagan: Good, because I am still not as advanced or confident. My husband says I am a really really good skier. I just lack confidence.Julie: We need to get your confidence for skiing just like we want people to have their confidence for birth.Meagan: I know. Okay, one last thing. What advice would you give to parents listening to the podcast? What do you feel is one of the most important takeaways from listening to all of the stories?Brian: The biggest takeaway, and it's the most obvious thing in the world. Birth is not easy. It is a monumental challenge. You can only be as prepared as you can. You could write down every single thing that you think is going to be a part of your birth plan and both Julie and Meagan will tell you there is not a single birth plan in the existence of the history of the universe that didn't go 100% according to that birth plan. There's always going to be some curveball in there that you were not prepared for. It's impossible to prepare. You can't prepare for absolutely everything. You can make a birth plan. You can make a backup plan. You can make a backup backup plan. The best thing you can do is just learn, research as much as you can, listen to the podcast, I don't know what else to tell you. You can't be prepared for everything but you can just try.Julie: And trust your intuition.Brian: Yeah. And the other thing is that-- I'm sure you've said this Meagan or Julie in the past on one of your episodes and I know it's easy for me to say, “Well, keep this in mind.” But keep in mind that you are the mother. You are in charge. All the nurses, doctors, the providers-- they can tell you, “Okay. We need to do this,” and if that doesn't line up with your birth plan, you say, “No, wait a second. I am doing it this way.”Julie: Boom.Brian: “I'm doing it this way.” You say it twice. You say it loud if you need to. “I'm doing it this way.” And if they say, “Okay. We'll work with this.” It might get to a point where they say, “You know what? This is medically unsafe or medically unwise.” At that point, you say, “Okay. I will listen to what you have to say.” Otherwise, you are saying, “I'm doing it this way. I'm doing it my way.”Meagan: Yeah. And it's okay to say, “Why is this medically unwise?” It's okay to question that.Brian: Yeah. You are in charge. Not them.Julie: Love it.Meagan: Okay. You're awesome, Brian. We love you. We love you so much.Julie: Yep. Don't ever go anywhere. We are going to keep you forever as our secret weapon. Our not-so-secret weapon anymore but I am still going to call you our secret weapon.Brian: Awesome. Okay.Meagan: If you ever decide to go back to Austria, are you still going to stay with us, or are you going to be like, “Peace out Meagan and Julie?”Brian: Well I mean, we haven't actually ever been in the same building for a year now.Julie: Yeah, so I'm pretty sure it doesn't matter where he lives.Brian: And we're still making a podcast, so whether I'm in Salt Lake City or in Vienna, we can still work it out.Julie: Boom.Meagan: Perfect. All right, okay. Well, if you guys want to know more about Brian after this episode, message us and we will get your answers. And Brian, seriously, you are just a miracle in our lives. So, we love you. We appreciate you. Thanks for joining us today and telling us more that we didn't know about you. And for the ski trips.Brian: Totally awesome.Julie: Wonderful.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Head over to thevbaclink.com/share and submit your story. For all things VBAC, including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan's bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

I had the honor to interview Brian Bogert who for me, is a real life superhero in a sense. He has dealt with his share of adversity and he continues to brush himself off while continuing to bust through barriers to create his best self. I admire all that he has accomplished in his life and he's here to help other accomplish the same and more. He goal to impact over a billion people is lofty yet if there is anyone who can do, I'm putting my money on Brian. This was a special episode as Brian was so gracious and share so much and sometimes the conversation gave me a lump in my throat as we went deep. I sure hope you enjoy this episode as much as I did creating it with Brian. Thanks for listening! Much love, Joe Brian Bogert: Human Behavior and Performance Coach, Keynote Speaker, YouTuber, Podcaster and Course Creator Founder - Brian Bogert Companies Website: https://brianbogert.com/ No Limits: https://brianbogert.com/no-limits/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/bogertbrian/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/bogertbrian YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmhaMgY8q-tMMCj0rpGg7iw LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-brian-bogert-companies/ Email: info@brianbogert.com Podcast Music By: Andy Galore, Album: "Out and About", Song: "Chicken & Scotch" 2014 Andy's Links: http://andygalore.com/ https://www.facebook.com/andygalorebass If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. For show notes and past guests, please visit: https://joecostelloglobal.libsyn.com Subscribe, Rate & Review: I would love if you could subscribe to the podcast and leave an honest rating & review. This will encourage other people to listen and allow us to grow as a community. The bigger we get as a community, the bigger the impact we can have on the world. Sign up for Joe's email newsletter at: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#signup For transcripts of episodes, go to: https://joecostelloglobal.lybsyn.com Follow Joe: https://linktr.ee/joecostello Transcript Joe: Ok, today, I want to welcome my guests, Mr. Brian Boger. Brian, welcome.   Brian: What's up, Joe, I love I love that shirt you're rockin no limits, soldier, right there. I   Joe: Hey,   Brian: Love it.   Joe: There you go. You know what? So since we're talking about the shirt, we've brought it up. Explain to me the purpose behind this shirt. I know that you give all the money away to   Brian: One hundred   Joe: Charity.   Brian: Percent of the proceeds, huh? Yeah, so I'll first describe kind of what no limits is just high level and then we'll talk about kind of where this is. No limits is is part of our branding. And it's this belief that I genuinely feel like we all can live with no limits. It's not that we're unlimited and we can do anything we want. It's that we can live significantly beyond the limits we place on ourselves and certainly be on the way the world has placed limits on us. And so that infinity sign, there's a lot of intentionality around it, which is really about awareness and intentionality and how those weave together to help us find who we are so we can live with no limits with our life in alignment. And so as we've been building this brand, there's always been this altruistic philanthropic side of me. Everything I do and desire for me to be financially successful is also for my ability to distribute that wealth back out into the community. So when we had an opportunity that people started to really attach to the brand and what they were doing were like, you know what, let's make some apparel. And we've got, I think, five different t shirt designs, both in men and women. We actually also have a dog design, too. I'll explain that in a second.   Brian: But the reason we did it is one hundred percent just to allow people to attach to it. You see, there's not Brian Bogot companies and stuff written all over it. Right? It's really the infinity in no limits and embedding people in that. And one hundred percent of the proceeds are going to nonprofits that we're going to rotate on a quarterly basis. And so, you know, it's just another cool way. You know, I'm not gonna make a bunch of money off t shirts. That wasn't something that needed to move the needle. But, you know, people can attach to the brand and feel like they're doing something better. Their investments also helping more lives. And a big part of who I am, I'm on a mission to impact a billion lives by twenty, forty five. This is just another way to perpetuate that. The dog shirts are that we're an animal family and my wife is like obsessed with them. And she's like, we can't have apparel without matching dog apparel, which just saw me die laughing because I still think it's so ridiculous. But I love my wife to death and every time my animals wear clothing, it just makes me laugh. But it's been cool because, yeah, those are those who go to support our local Humane Society and ASPCA as well. So some of the proceeds.   Joe: That's great. Yeah, and it's a beautiful shirt. I'm always nervous about when you can't you can't feel it first, but when I took it out, I was like, I don't know. I've been in the gym a lot lately. I might be a little a little too big for him. It's like fit perfect. It makes me actually look better than I should look. So I   Brian: Well,   Joe: Appreciate   Brian: You know,   Joe: It.   Brian: I'm super anal about t shirts as well, so I'm actually happy that he said that because I before we ever posted them, before we started selling them, we actually tested a bunch of shirts. And I wanted to make sure that they fit and they felt like I like shirts to fit. Not that that means everybody else needs to like what I like. But I've had so many other t shirts and different apparel that they just don't fit right in. You never wear it. And I'm like, if I if I'm going to buy something for my own brand or have something for somebody else, I want something that people feel comfortable in.   Joe: Yeah,   Brian: So   Joe: Yeah,   Brian: I'm   Joe: So   Brian: Happy that you feel that way.   Joe: Yeah, and besides wearing it out like normal, like this with her jeans and whatever, I definitely am going to get some more because I think it's cool and it'll be a gym shirt for me. And then I think people will come to me and go, that's cool, what is that? And then send more people your way. So that's my goal.   Brian: I'm so grateful, yeah, for the gym one, you're going to get one of those embrace pain to avoid suffering shirts. That's   Joe: There you go. That's   Brian: That's   Joe: Right,   Brian: That's that's the motto in the gym that's   Joe: That's   Brian: Going to help push you, man.   Joe: Right. All right, deal. So I always I know you've told your story a zillion times, I'm sure. And I want you to tell as much or as little as you want to bring us up to today. So however, you can kind of let the audience   Brian: All   Joe: Know. Yeah.   Brian: Hold it a million times, so I feel like I know the points I want to hit, so I'll just I'll just run with it. I'm going to ask you and anybody who's listening, unless they're driving to just close your eyes for just one second. And I want you to imagine going to a store, having a successful shopping trip, heading back out to your car. And it's a beautiful day. And you think you're just going on with the rest of your life like it was just any other normal shopping trip. And then you get to your car and you turn your head and you see a truck barreling 40 miles an hour right at you with no time to react. Go and open your eyes. That's where this portion of my story begins. My mom, my brother and I went to our local Wal-Mart to get a one inch paint brush. And anybody who's known me followed me or even in the few minutes we've been talking can probably tell. I've always had a lot of energy. It's the first one of the car and not a surprise to my mom because I want to get home and put that paint brush to use. You know, this is back in the days, though, before they had key fobs. So I had to literally wait for my mom and brother to close the gap of those four or five feet, catch up, stick the key in the door and unlock it to get on the other way.   Brian: And as it happened, the truck pulls up in front of the store and a driver, a middle passenger, get out. And the passenger all the way to the right felt the truck moving backwards. So he did what any one of us would do, Joe, and he screwed up and put his foot on the brake instead of the gas combination of shock and forced Zoom up onto the steering wheel, up onto the dashboard. And before you know it, he's catapulting across the parking lot 40 miles an hour right at us with no time to react. Now, we were in that spot, so we went up into the median, went up to the car in the median, ultimately knocked me to the ground, ran over me diagonally, tore my spleen, left the tire tracks, scar on my stomach and continued on to completely sever my left arm from my body. So there I am laying on the parking lot on one hundred and fifty three day in Phoenix, Arizona, my mom and brother just watched the whole thing happen and they look up and they see my arm 10 feet away. Fortunately for me, so did my guardian angel. She saw the whole thing take place, she was a nurse that walked out of the store right when this happened.   Brian: She saw the literal life and limb scenario in front of her and she rushed immediately into action. She focused on life. First, she came over and stopped the bleeding and she saved my life. And then she instructed some innocent bystanders to run inside, grab a cooler filled with ice and get my detached limb on ice within minutes. Had she not done one or both of those things, I either wouldn't be here with you today or I'd be here with you today with the cleaned up stop. That's just the facts, right? So I will expedite a whole lot of the rest of that particular story. We can dig deeper if you want to. But as you can imagine, there was years of recovery that came from this. Twenty four surgeries and a whole lot of lessons and observations. What I've definitely learned is that I have an extremely unique story. I'm sure that your listeners weren't expecting it to go there today. But what I've also realized is that we actually all have unique stories. And what's important is that we pause and become aware of the lessons we can extract from those stories and then become intentional. How do we apply to our lives? And we all have the ability to do that. We also all have the ability to tap into the collective wisdom of other people's stories, to shorten our own curve, to learn something to share with you two primary ones.   Brian: And then we'll just see where the conversation goes. The first is I learned not to get stuck by what has happened to me, but instead get moved by what I can do with it, and the second I didn't realize until far later. I was a kid. I was seven, eight, nine, 10, 11, 12 years old when I was going through the meat of all of this. Yes, I was the one doing the the therapy. Yes, I was the one having the surgeries done to me. But I was also being guided through the process. So I was a little bit in a fog. My parents, however, were not they were intimately aware of the unceasing medical treatments, years of therapy and the idea of seeing their son grow up without the use of his left arm was a source of great potential suffering for them. So they willed themselves day in and day out to do what was necessary. It was tough to embrace the pains required to ultimately strengthen and heal me. So whether it was intentional or not, what they did was they ingrained in me a philosophy and a way of living which I embody and everything I do now, which was to embrace pain, to avoid suffering. And I believe when that's done right, that's also where we gain freedom.   Brian: So it's these concepts that I use to not only become this unique injury, but how my business partners and I scaled our last business to 15 million with the span of a decade. And now how is a human behavior performance coach and entrepreneur? I flip that on its head. You will have individuals and organizations just like you, just like the people listening, become more aware, more intentional, and who they already are, their most authentic selves. You see, I believe that's when magic starts to happen and the door starts to crack to perspective, motivation and direction. And that's when people have the opportunity to have joy, freedom and fulfillment and to back into their lives. And those are the reasons I'm spending the next twenty five years of my life committed to trying to impact a billion lives on this planet. Because if we can reduce the level of suffering that people experience, which there's a lot, and we give them the chance to experience joy, freedom and resentment, we give them the permission to be exactly who they are and know the world will embrace them and love them for exactly who they are. And we can bring vulnerability and authenticity into everything we do, which are the glue that binds human connection. Then we can come together and leave this world a lot more. Beautiful place for my kids, my grandkids.   Joe: Well, let me start here first. Do you still are you still in contact with that nurse?   Brian: You know, I am actually on a mission to find her right now. I've never spoken with her. And so part of the reason I also talk about that role in that process on so many platforms is I want there to be a lot of exposure and hopefully the world is going to help me track her down because I just want to say thank you.   Joe: Sure, that time that I've heard the story, it was like, I need to ask him that question, I'm just wondering if they're in connection with each other.   Brian: We're not I'm actively looking for her right now.   Joe: Got it during the time you were going to school. How did you handle I would assume you were treated differently, right,   Brian: Of   Joe: By   Brian: Course.   Joe: Your by your friends and teachers and they always whatever the case might be. How did you handle that?   Brian: Yes, so I think I handled it from a place to survive and protect myself, although I didn't realize that's what I was doing until far later. I didn't I didn't like being the center of attention and I didn't like. Being defined. By boundaries that were placed upon other people's view of what they'd be capable of in my scenario, and so I got this really adamant approach to I'm not going to be defined by those boundaries and I'm going to break beyond boundaries for my entire life, because why not? If I want to do something, the limitation is inside. Right. I need it. And there may be a physical limitation in some ways, but like I can always overcome the physical limitation. If I have a will and desire, that's great enough. But what happened right to protect myself is I created this intellectual narrative, which was I'm good, I'm strong, I'm capable. I don't need anybody's help. And it served me really well for a long time during that period of time, I was able to really hone my emotional intelligence because I got so good at wanting to divert attention from me that I got very strong in my ability to read people, read environments, read situations so that I could almost ensure that that attention wasn't on me. And so it honed those skill sets. And it also honed my mental toughness, which, again, I'm a huge believer is a big part of the equation to be kind of successful. That intellectual narrative ended up biting me later in life. And when I was 20 years old, I broke my arm in a snowboarding injury.   Brian: Compound fracture almost lost it again. And that was the moment that I realized the power of our narratives because the world bought into mine. I had I had sung that preached that narrative so strong. I never even said those words right. That's just the message that I was sending with my energy and how I showed up and how I interacted. And now all of a sudden, I'm in my most vulnerable period ever as an adult, not having the same infrastructure and support system that I had at home that I probably took for granted up until that point, how much support I had. Now, sitting in this vulnerable position, I didn't have the courage to ask for help. So I had a lot of friends, a lot of family. Nobody showed up and they didn't show because they didn't love me or didn't care about me. And they showed up because they just believe Brian's goody strong is capable. He doesn't need anybody else. And so that's kind of the during that whole school adolescent period. Right. It was really about me proving that I could overcome the physical limitations, that I could protect myself, that I could get myself there. But what I really downplayed the importance of was the importance of human connection. So that whole next year of my life, I shifted to vulnerability and authenticity and how do I hone the relationships that I was developing so strongly through emotional intelligence to be able to focus on a true connection.   Joe: So it sounds like your parents were super special. Did they go out of their way and whatever normal way for them to handle it, to not limit you from doing anything like when somebody knocked on your door and said, hey, can Brian come out and play and we're going to play football? Did they say, Brian, go have fun? Like, is   Brian: Yeah.   Joe: That the approach they took?   Brian: You know, nobody's ever asked me that question, you just gave me chills when you asked that. I think it's a blend, honestly. They did. They never wanted to be the reason that I didn't do something. But as you would expect, all parents have a protection mechanism that kicks in. So immediately after the accident, I was I was in slings and during surgeries for a few years. And so that first year after the accident, no, I wasn't going out and playing at the level that I would have right between seven and eight. But it wasn't long after that that it was it opened up. We started having good friends in the neighborhood. We played football in the street. We played basketball on the street. We rode bikes nonstop. And so they were never going to tell me that I couldn't do those things. Now, what they didn't want me to do, they didn't want me to join a football team where we were playing tackle because for obvious reasons, I get hit really hard on that arm. Even though the doctor said the bone wasn't strong, we don't know. Right. So so they would limit it in terms of like, exactly the application. But at the same time, they got so used to me doing what I was doing that whenever the phone rang and it was somebody a number that my mom didn't know back then, she was expecting insert branded something again because I needed I think they appreciated the fact that that's who I was when I was born.   Brian: I mean, I was always the guy that was pushing the limits even before this. This gave me perspective in humility that I wouldn't have had otherwise. And so they at least were aware enough to recognize, like Brian's got a higher risk threshold and probably has an even higher one after the accident than he would have had anyway. And they they knew that they needed to give me those outlets to be able to spread my wings and be free. So they always encouraged. Right. Like, if I wanted to go mountain bike and do jumps, they'd be like, OK, you're going to get hurt. And then if I got hurt, we'd figure it out. Right? I mean, within reason, they gave me the freedom. I think they made the right decision to not let me play tackle football. Who knows what could have happened, but did I play on other sports teams? Absolutely. So, yeah, I think my parents really did encourage and they still do to this day, despite the fact that they know you know, I think my mom has just gotten used to constantly being on edge, like expecting that Brian is going to do something crazy and get hurt. That's how we find our limits in this world, is we've got to push them.   Joe: Well, tell her to not follow your Instagram account so she doesn't have to see you squatting. Four hundred pounds. I saw that. I saw the photo of you sitting there. I'm like, oh, my gosh, I can't watch this. This is killing me.   Brian: Well, I mean, and that's one of those things I had to learn, right? I mean, my biggest limitation for some of those things is my hand strength. And so I have to get creative and I figure out how to do things. And when I first started deadlifting, I mean, I knew I couldn't deadlift with a normal bar because of the imbalance in my body already, but I could deadlift with a bar and protect myself for the most part. Well, that worked really well until the one time that my strap broke   Joe: Oh.   Brian: While I was lifting. And this was like early on. So I had to, like, learn these things. Well, my instinct wasn't to just let go of the bar on the other side. And I think so what you saw the other day, I wasn't 400 pounds. I think it was two hundred and   Joe: Yeah,   Brian: Forty.   Joe: I know, I just I couldn't remember,   Brian: But   Joe: But.   Brian: But I but I have I have reps significantly above 300 pounds. I don't say that to impress. I rest to the point I was doing that in this one scenario when the strap broke and I didn't let go on my right hand because it wasn't instinct, because I wasn't expecting the strap to break. And this was a learning experience because it tweaked me really bad. And I mean, I didn't deadlift for a few months after that. I had to recover. But once I started getting back into it, it changed my form. It changed my focus, it changed my attention. And now I'm like intimately aware of, like every movement on the strap. And I'm like ready at any moment to just drop so that I don't tweak my back. But my core strength is a big part of my ability to not be in debilitating pain every single day. Those deadlifts keeping my upper thoracic, keeping my shoulders, keeping my back because I don't have a lot on the left side of my back, keeping them strong is essential for me to not be literally in debilitating pain every day.   Brian: And so those are the those are the pains I have to embrace. I've got to embrace the pain of figuring out how do I lift in a way that pushes my body, gets the hip hinge in there, gets the movement, my back and my core strength and all that stuff engaged in a way that's going to allow me to maintain a livable amount of pain in my back because the imbalance versus debilitating suffering. So it's funny that you mention that. But yeah, I think my mom is just used to it. My wife is too. I mean, my wife is incredible. She literally is like I know that if you set your mind to something, you're just going to go do it. And there's a high degree. At some point you going to get hurt. She's like, but what am I going to, like, box you in and continue? Like, you're just going to go do it anyway. I was like, yeah, see, like, I love that, right? It's like just let people let people spread their wings.   Joe: That's right. Well, that's great before we get off of this subject and move on. I know that you and Blake do mountain biking,   Brian: Yeah, we do,   Joe: Right?   Brian: Yeah.   Joe: And that's like a big thing he loves to do with you and you with him. And so that's got to be at least I mean, I've done it and that's a lot on the arms.   Brian: Yes, so what's funny is I have no other perspective because I didn't learn how to mountain bike until after my injury, I didn't I didn't learn how to mountain bike when my when my son did at five and six and seven. So, yeah. It isn't in balance. Yeah, it is difficult. And I did it for almost. Let's see, I did it for probably 20 years before I actually started adapting my bike. And so there's no tricep, so Tricep and Laerte are the two muscles that you absorb, all of it, all of the impact with when you're mountain biking outside of the suspension. So I don't have a lot of tricep. So there's an automatic imbalance in my body, but I've learned how to balance it because I didn't know any other way and I was motivated and wanted to do it. Mountain biking is one of the few places that I'm absolutely free. And the reason I'm absolutely free there is I don't have the ability to think about anything else. Almost any other workout I do, almost anything I do like there's time to think. Mountain biking, you've done it right. You know, like you've got to be on your game.   Brian: One hundred percent focused on what's ahead of you. And so because of that, I've learned how to how to modify my body, my weight distribution, the way that I actually handle the handlebars. But two years ago about I started researching modifications for people with upper extremity injuries. And I landed with this company in the UK that they're actually right now building a product for me that I think is going to take my mountain biking to the next level, which is cool. But what I did is I got a steering stabilizer almost like the ones they have on their bikes. There's a company in the US called Hoby and they make these steering stabilizers for for mountain bikes. So I ended up getting that which what it essentially does is it's a spring unit which snaps the bars back to being straight. I thought it was going to help me more going downhill than uphill. What's crazy is it's actually helped my climbing more than anything because I can pick a line and put all the power I need to in the pedals and not worry about the imbalance in the handles, because it'll it'll keep my lane pure   Joe: Yeah.   Brian: And with slight, rigid and then downhill. It just gives me more confidence as well, because if I were to hit a bump and it goes on the left side, your weight goes forward, the handlebars collapse. Right. And just like twist the bars, this steering stabilizer stabilizer allows me to balance it with the muscle structure having the right arm and how I can balance my body on the left and then hope, hope he breaks is also another brand that I actually found out they just released this last year, a brake unit that has two master cylinders in one unit so you can have your front and your rear brake both on the same side. I've always never used the front brake in mountain biking   Joe: Sure,   Brian: Because my right   Joe: All that   Brian: Side   Joe: Pressure.   Brian: Is always   Joe: Yes.   Brian: What you want to be able to use primarily anyway, right? Whereas road biking, which I do a lot of the front brake is more important. Mountain biking, the rear one's more important. So I was always able to get around the corners, but I never had the confidence that I could actually stop and modulate my brakes effectively. So I would take things a little more cautiously now that I have these brakes on both sides and I can truly modulate, like just with, like little twitches in my fingers and the steering stabilizer and it's changed my mountain biking game. I can go out there and rip at a level that I've never been able to with confidence. And then there's like I said, these are these two other products that I'm really excited about. But, you know, one of the things I never knew any different, I wanted to do it and I figured it out. And I think that, again, that's one of those things that I could have just told myself, like, nope, you can't do it. You don't have tricep, you don't have a lot. But I genuinely believe if you want something badly enough and you take the time to think, plan and put things into trial and error, you start to realize you can do a lot more than what the world conditions us to believe we're capable of. Mountain biking is just another example for me on many things that I've been able to break those boundaries and expectations. I see I go mountain biking. People are like, how do you do it? I'm like, how do you do it? I mean, you could you could explain to me with a fully abled body how you do it, but I wouldn't understand because that's not my experience.   Joe: Yeah, that's crazy. So, Blake, is your son Addisons, your beautiful redheaded little daughter? With what happened to you, do you believe that certain people on this earth are have the power to get through some of these things where I just think about what you've gone through? I think about even my own brother, who, when he was young, why they were there at my parents house, they were splitting wood with one of those hydraulic splitters. That goes really slow. Right. But the   Brian: Oh,   Joe: Log   Brian: Yeah.   Joe: Slipped and he had like these two fingers crushed   Brian: Yeah,   Joe: And   Brian: Yeah.   Joe: Then, you know, reconstructed but not usable in a sense. Then he lost his son at 21 years old in a car accident. And I think about this and I go, God, I. I am not I don't have the capacity to handle something like that. And I guess when it happens, it's different. Right? You figure it out. But I almost feel like certain people I don't know if they just they're born to be able to handle these things. And if this is more for the audience   Brian: Yeah.   Joe: That might hear this and go, oh, God, there's all of these things that come into people's lives that they're they're given to deal with whatever that might be. And is it just the chosen ones that can handle it? That's why they've it just doesn't make any sense to me. So that's.   Brian: Yeah, so. I really appreciate the direction your questions are going. By the way, I just have to compliment you on that. You're asking a depth of questions that don't often get contemplated. And I think that there's a lot of truth behind even what you said. You know, it's interesting if you even think about what you just said when you were talking about your brother, you say, I look at him and I'm not sure that I could have handled it. And the reason I pay attention to that is because that is what I truly believe in, how the world has viewed me, they have viewed my limits through their own lens of what they believe they're capable of. I don't think that people truly know what they're capable of until they're tested. And that can be done either intentionally or externally, right? Sometimes we get tested not by our choice. Clearly getting run over by a truck was not by my choice, but it was a test. And I could show my strength to myself into the world by how I stood back up and what I've now done with it. Why I say I have a unique story is it doesn't matter the trauma that I experienced because it's unique solely to me. The trauma that your brother experienced, the trauma that other people experience with divorce or loss of a loved one or financial despair or like you name it, we all have our own unique challenges that we face. And I don't care who you are, if you're still on this planet and you're still standing. You are a survivor. None of us get through this world unscathed.   Brian: None of us. Perspective allows us to really pay attention to what other people are going through, but what perspective is really doing is allowing us the opportunity to get in someone else's world to gain perspective, to apply to our own. So it's not necessarily about what each one of us are inherently able to handle. It's that I think we're all dealt a unique set of cards and it's how we play those cards that matter. So the thing about pain, and I'm just going to speak to that, because my experience was pain, your brother's experience was pain. He had physical pain, probably emotional and spiritual pain with the loss of two fingers and a deep emotional, mental, spiritual, and probably manifested as physical pain with the loss of his son. Pain, that's what it is. Now, pain can't be measured independent of the person experiencing it. But the one thing we know is that it's a universal human experience, we all experience pain. And so what's important is not to question can I or could I have handled that? But just to say I've handled everything that's ever been thrown my way and I'm still standing here today. So what that tells me is you're probably capable of handling a lot more than you thought you were capable of at a prior period in your life. And if something were to happen that's devastating, right in that moment, you have to choose, is this going to define me and keep me stuck or am I going to use this as fuel to who I'm capable of becoming because of what I've gone through? That's why I said earlier I learned not to get stuck by what's happened to me, but I get moved by what I can do with it.   Brian: I realize I have a gift not just in my own natural abilities and gifts and intuition and emotional intelligence and all the things. But this has given me perspective that I couldn't I couldn't have gained any other way. I can put myself in other people's shoes and know what it feels like to not be seen, to know what it feels like, to feel like nobody understands me, to know what it feels like, to have people question everything I'm capable of for my entire life, even if it has nothing to do with my physical ability, even if it's one hundred percent mental, one hundred percent job and application, they view me. As not capable of doing I know what that feels like and I've had to battle that my whole life, I don't know a single person on this planet who has never felt that way. We all feel that we all experience and it's real to each one of us uniquely so I know it's probably a lot longer of an answer than you were hoping for, but the depth of the question, I think, required that approach because it's not about what you believe you could handle based on other people's circumstances. It's about what you already have handled and what you're very capable of handling if you change the way you think and feel about what you're capable of, which, again, is typically limiting in our own belief system.   Joe: So because we're doing this recording and you and I have not talked about what we could talk about or what we couldn't talk about, I want to ask this and obviously I can always edit it out. And you   Brian: Free   Joe: Know   Brian: Game, buddy, go ahead, go ahead.   Joe: What? So when does someone say, like, did you ever have these dark moments? And this is not the part of the question that I'm going to ask. This is just in front of it. And you ever have a moment that you said, why me? Like, did you ever   Brian: Absolutely.   Joe: Ok?   Brian: Absolutely, and I have those moments still today when I get when I get hit with certain things. The reason I was able to shift out of that so quickly, I remember being seven years old and that was the first thing I remember when I woke up, one feeling like it was a dream. And then I was like in this hazy state of like what this altered reality felt like, it didn't feel real. And then it was probably a day or two before I really came to and was like awake, awake, not just like in that dazed awake. At least this is from memory, I don't know the exact timeline. This is just how I feel it. And I literally remember. That question. Weiming. What is the rest of my life going to look like, like this sucks. I felt sorry for myself. I was given the opportunity to snap out of that quickly because the uniqueness of my story drew a lot of attention to it and there was a lot of families in the ICU with us who were coming up to us saying, we're so sorry for what happened to you. This is so horrible. We can't believe how hard this must be for you as a family. Let us know whatever we can do to help. Just getting wrapped with love and support from strangers to strangers saved my life. Right. That's crazy to think about. A stranger went into action and saved my life. Had she not chosen to do that, I wouldn't be here.   Brian: So I don't take that lightly, but what's happening in the ICU with these families is we start to realize that these families that are giving us just unfiltered support. Are also questioning whether or not their kid is going to survive another 30 days from the terminal illness that they're in the ICU with. Only immediate threat to my life and not at that moment knowing whether or not I'd be able to use my arm. I knew I'd be alive and over the course of the next ten years, being with those kids and all of us who wanted to rally around this cause to help more people, to bring perspective, motivation, direction to an organization that helped us so holistically in a healing process, either physically, emotionally, spiritually, whatever. Right. I lost multiple of them to their terminal illnesses over the course of the next ten years. And so although I don't think about them every day, when I'm asked questions like that, it really centers me on grounds me because I'm here happy, healthy and productive, living a life that many would dream of. And those kids didn't have the opportunity to do so. And so I have to just know and honor that it was me for a lot of reasons, I might not know all those reasons in this lifetime, I believe I know a lot of them at this point, but I still ask that question. I mean, last week was an unbelievably challenging week for me.   Joe: I saw the story and, yeah, that's part of where,   Brian: Yeah,   Joe: You know, this   Brian: I mean,   Joe: Is   Brian: Last   Joe: Going.   Brian: Week   Joe: Yeah.   Brian: Was an unbelievably challenging week for me, for a variety of reasons. One was around this fabricated reality, around a date that in some ways is very significant, in other ways is not significant. But coincidentally or coincidentally, I got kicked in the stomach multiple times last week. And yet it didn't really totally faze me in a way that brought me down to the deepest, darkest moments, because every time I face those things, every time I start to ask the question, why me? It starts to reveal itself faster and faster the more I go through the pain. And and and so I now have this element of trust in surrender where the literally last week I was like, why do I always have this stuff happening? Why am I the one that has to deal with this? Literally? I mean, I said to my wife last week and then in the same breath, I'm like, I know why. And so for those that did ask that question still. I would just encourage you to recognize that there absolutely is a resum. Nothing happens by accident. You could call this my accident, but this was for a purpose, it wasn't on purpose, but it was for a purpose. And I realize that now more holistically than I have in my entire life, but it's the same thing for everybody else. I mean, I guarantee that your brother has learned from his experiences and having to adapt and do things with the loss of two fingers. He's had to learn and adapt. What does it mean to be a parent? And there's so many are out there who live on their lives without their child. Still a part of it. Parents aren't meant to outlive their kids.   Joe: Correct. What's   Brian: Right,   Joe: The what   Brian: And.   Joe: The worst car I could think of?   Brian: And by the way, there was this pending doom around this date last week that was connected to that for me, as well as from a parent's lens now. And the data is reference to a couple times I didn't I didn't say specifically on the show, but this last Saturday, March 6th, was the day that my son, who's my little clone, my little mini me, my my only boy and my oldest. Was the exact same age to the day that I was on the day of my injury. Twenty nine years separated. And. There was a lot to that most of what happened in the 10 days leading up to it had nothing to do with my son. But they were absolutely clarifying moments that needed to take place in that window. And Saturday was kind of a new start for me and a whole variety of ways, which was just unbelievably cleansing and freeing and purifying. And so even the questions last week, why me? Why does this always happen to me? Why do I have to be the one to do this? We're very clear. I know, and I think all of us do we just fight and we resist because it's not in alignment with what the world tells us. It's not in alignment with what the narrative is externally. Right. But it's not about being the victim. It's about recognizing that if we have ownership and accountability with everything we do, we recognize that there's always a reason, there's always a cause, and there's always a way through it if we desire it enough. That's when we start to become free.   Joe: Ok, so here's the the part where I want to talk about Blake and Addison really quickly, I don't want to stay because, you know, I know you're super productive, positive guy. And I don't want this episode to be like the Debbie Downer episode. But you went through a lot in your life up to this   Brian: Yeah,   Joe: Point. Right.   Brian: Yeah,   Joe: And   Brian: A lot.   Joe: Then, Blake, I remember you talking about this, so I'm only bringing this up because I think you've talked about   Brian: Yeah,   Joe: It and.   Brian: I've shared publicly on stuff, I'm sure I know where you're going,   Joe: Yeah,   Brian: But go ahead.   Joe: So so you said it is is on the spectrum, right, and so you there's an extra amount of attention that has to happen   Brian: Of course,   Joe: There. Right.   Brian: Of course.   Joe: So then you deal with that another moment where you said, why me? Like, I haven't I haven't. I gone through enough. Why me? Right. And then now you have yet a third time now with with Adderson with her here. Right. And I could be another time we go. What is it going to stop. Like why me. Right. I'm sure there's people out there that do not handle this anywhere near as well as you do. And I'm hoping your words of wisdom, if they run across this episode, that it will help them understand how you I mean, you can look at their beautiful faces and go, oh, it doesn't matter. You know, they're amazing. It just it's a it's a small little blip on the radar. But it's still some people can't even handle the bullet. So   Brian: They   Joe: That's,   Brian: Can't.   Joe: You   Brian: They   Joe: Know.   Brian: Can't. And by the way, there's a lot more depth and truth to that statement than than you probably even realized, I mean, to the point that when we found out about our daughter's hearing loss. The audiologist actually said to us she does have loss and she could benefit from hearing devices. And I paused and I said. She could benefit, like are you saying she needs hearing aids, like is her hearing profound enough that it's not like she would benefit? She she needs it to restore it to what we would expect are going to be? And she said, yeah. I said, why didn't you just say that? And she said, because most parents don't want to hear it. And she said that even when they do want to hear it, she said, because of the reports that we get when we plug in hearing aids, even if they go through the process of getting hearing aids, even if they go through the process of doing these things, she said. Most kids, the hearing aids live in a drawer. Because of some reason, right, that either the parents don't think it's important they're embarrassed by their kid or whatever, like there's a whole slew of things. You're exactly right. And in both those moments, by the way, when we found out about our son's diagnosis on the autism spectrum and we found out about our daughter.   Brian: It was it was challenging, right? It was absolutely challenging for both my wife and I and we both we both grieved in different ways. And why I choose the word grieve is any time we have a vision for our lives. And that reality that we've created gets stolen from us, we experience loss. We literally go through the grieving process, the multiple steps of grieving, sometimes it's anger that manifest first, sometimes it's just like absolute depression. But but recognize it for what it is like having something happen to your kid and realizing that they might have an altered future from what you always desired and hoped for them. You have to process that, but then once you process that and you start to realize like this doesn't define the kid, just like a mine accident didn't define me right. What this really does is it's a gift because what getting both of their diagnosis is as early as we did, what allows us to do is wrap them with services, wrap them with all the support they need to close the gap between whatever their diagnosis limits them from doing to what a typical kid might be capable of doing. It shortens that gap early in those foundational early development years so that it won't really ever hurt them.   Brian: Plus, the more that we talk about it not as an ailment, but just a part of who they are, right. It's no longer a label. It becomes a term of empowerment because they recognize that like they have superpowers as a result of what their diagnoses are. So the answer is yes. There's there was absolute grieving for both my wife and I, for both children. We're well beyond that at this point. But it hung with us for a while. And and there are still moments where the difficulty and complexity of our household that most people will never understand and ours is light compared to what some other people's situations are. Right. So we keep that in perspective, too. Is it harder than most parents and most households might have to be? We believe so, but it's not about like we have got it more difficult than what they have. It's just this is the cards were dealt, so we're going to play them as best we can for both of our kids. We know how lucky they are to have us. My wife is brilliant. My wife is brilliant and what she has done to allow our kids to feel authentically who they are in safe, despite all of these things, despite the fact that they know they're different in certain ways and honoring and cherishing, encouraging them to just make do the things that make their hearts happy and stand up for what is right and know that they're worthy of receiving love like exponentially.   Brian: And all these things, like my wife and I were partners, but our kids are lucky to have us at the counter to that is we also feel extremely privileged to have our kids because they have challenged me to go to depths of myself, my soul, my emotions that allow me to be more effective in the world. That had I not recognized those scenarios for what they were, which is we can handle them and let's figure out the plan forward. It probably would have made me feel stuck longer than it did. And so for those parents that are listening out there that might have kids like this or even if there's not a diagnosis, but you just have a challenging time or there's an injury or there's something like, again, nothing happens by accident. And so the only way through it is through it, and if you if you desire something on the other side, then you've got to go through and that's really what it comes down to.   Joe: Really powerful and I appreciate you sharing leading up to this interview, I wanted to talk about those things and I was just like, I know he's talked about it, but I I didn't know how to actually go after it and   Brian: You did it beautifully, my friend, it was   Joe: Think   Brian: Great.   Joe: I'm grateful that you shared. And so, OK, so now you and I know this is a big jump, but I just want to I know we   Brian: Yeah,   Joe: Have limited   Brian: No, let's go. We got it, yeah.   Joe: We have limited time and I don't and I want to get to where you are today. So then you get into the insurance business. Correct. So you're in that for you grew a company. I think it was from like.   Brian: Quarter million to 15 million over the span of a decade.   Joe: You just picked that that was just a career that you pick at one point and.   Brian: Yeah, you know what's funny, I saw depicted it sort of picked me up, I was my junior year in college, was deciding that I needed to go get an internship. And so I started looking at a whole bunch different places. And I actually ended up getting into insurance because my one of my childhood friends and my childhood girlfriend, in fact, that we grew up together. And a lot of ways I always had her parents were like second parents to me for a lot of years. And I always had a great lot of respect. But I always viewed her dad as this very successful man. But I knew nothing about what he did. And I reached out to him as a mentor, frankly, and just said, hey, I'm going out. I'm doing these interviews and I have these things. And I talked to my own parents and they're successful. They've done these things as well. But I wanted extra perspectives. And he ultimately was like, I'm going to pass on your resume to so-and-so. And if you don't get a call in three days, call me. I was like, OK, not a clue what it was. It was the only one that was in insurance. Right. Very, very amazing opportunity. And it just took off from there. And nobody grows up wanting to be an insurance, right? I mean, and if they do and if you're listening to this, I apologize if you always had a desire to be an insurance. I know there's some people who love it. I never loved it. It was a great vehicle for me. And it was a great testing ground for me to grow and develop who I was as a professional, who I was as a man. I kind of grew up in it, but yeah, no, I didn't seek out insurance. I kind of fell into it and it just it fit.   Joe: Right. So while you were there with your inner voice saying there's more out there for me, I want to do more, whatever it might be. I mean, how did you make the jump then when you left   Brian: Yeah.   Joe: There to now what you're doing, which is the coaching and the speaking and and the podcast. And I mean, I, I look at your website and I get tired just looking at all the all the different menus that I could take a look at stuff. And then I went into the podcast when I was like, wait, is he doing actually three podcasts? Like, how is he doing all this? So how did you decide how did you decide you were going to leave insurance and then pursue the Brian Bogot we know today?   Brian: Yes, so I'm going to start with the first question you asked, which was, did I always know? I knew for a long time I've always had this gut feeling that like there was something meaningful that I was meant to do. No idea what that meant. OK. And then I conditioned that out of myself, and when I first got out of college, it was like bright eyed and bushy tailed, I was going to go take over the world and make a ton of money. Right. I'm going I'm literally going to be running the company. I'm going to climb the corporate ladder. I mean, it was all external. And, you know, this is one of the things I talk about now is I chased the what like so many of us did. Right? I chased what house, what car, what amount of money, what amount of success, what image do I want to portray? What, what, what, what, what. And I lost the who along the way. And I woke up one day after having accomplished all the words that I ever desired, way earlier than I thought I would have, in a way bigger level than I ever thought I would. And I realized, like, what have I been doing all this for? The more money I made, the less I cared about money, the more I got into a successful career, the more I was like, why am I doing to myself? And then I'm running in circles with people making six, seven, eight figures who all were having high of success and they were all miserable to.   Brian: And so those were the turning turning point moments over the probably the last seven to eight years, maybe six, seven years, if I'm being real honest, because when I first started coaching, it was because I had my son and I always said that I'm going to do everything for the benefit of my family always. And I did. But then six months went by when my son like that and I realized I missed all of it except the first week because I was burning the candle at both ends, I was still living the life that I was to create this abundant amount of external success and validation that I needed to prove to myself I could do it and I never recalibrated my life. So part of providing everything for my family is with finances and security and opportunity and safety and all those things. But but but it's also love and leadership and presence and connection. And I don't want to be that guy that did everything for his family, then woke up twenty five years later and never had a relationship with any of them.   Brian: They decided that I didn't serve a role for them outside of money. It's not all about money. It never was all about money. And so it was the first in my life. I didn't have the people in my life, the mentors, the experience or the intellect myself to figure out how to fix it. So I hired my first coach. And he said to me, a month of working together, because you're going to be doing this, like, what are you talking about? He said you need to be coaching and speaking. So you've been on stages since you were seven because you've got a unique ability or a unique story and you have an ability that you're not afraid in front of groups. And he's like, you're all about building people and building businesses. Like you're always helping. You're always finding ways to level people up. You're always helping them connect dots. And I was like, yeah, whatever. I was like, I'm paying you a lot of money. Not that's how great I have to figure out this stuff. And I completely threw it out the window. And then it just kept trickling. It kept trickling in every single month for about nine months.   Brian: And then this crazy experience happened, which again, nothing happens by accident. But the universe gave me the sign that I needed, which was he told me what I needed to hear, not what I wanted to hear. And that's when I started to desire a little bit more and started to feel like maybe I wasn't in alignment. But I had to ask the question if I'm going to jump in being in coaching, is this complementary or conflicting to everything else I had because I was so significantly invested mentally, physically, emotionally and spiritually and monetarily. Right. In this other business that we built, that was the fruits of its labor were just starting to pay off. And it's like, let's let's make sure that we forge ahead on what we're doing here. So I started coaching and speaking and I did it alongside for about five years and then summer of twenty nineteen comes around. And again, I told you, I'm running in circles with people that are miserable. And I realized my relationship with my clients started shifting to more coaching relationships. We were placing multi million, hundreds of millions, tens of millions of dollars of insurance for people. And my conversations had nothing to do with insurance with the people that I was actually interacting   Joe: Right.   Brian: With at the C Suite.   Joe: Yeah.   Brian: Right. I was coaching them on how to be better people, how to be better leaders, how to change the culture of their business, think through and problem solve on things that really had nothing to do with insurance. But the insurance was how we were in the door. And so the more that started to migrate, we have this connection moment summer twenty nineteen with my wife and I. We go away for a weekend and it was one of those that like mentally, spiritually, physically and emotionally, like brother, like our souls were bonded like we were one and we're driving back to pick up our kids and she looks, everybody goes, how would you feel if you did have to go to the office on Monday morning? And I was like, that's a pretty loaded question.   Joe: No.   Brian: Why don't you tell me more? Well, I had some other I had some other health stuff that impacted me pretty significantly a few years back. I'm good now. It's all all squared away. But she said, I think you let some of this stuff allow fear to enter into your world in a way I've never seen you operate. She said, I feel like you've convinced yourself that we need the money, the status, the prestige, the security, the all of the above, what's been built. She said, I'm here to tell you we don't I don't care if we live in a cardboard box. What we need is one hundred percent of you. And she said, I don't know if you see it or not, but I see you dying a little bit inside every single day. You live in insurance. And and so she said, I think you're barely scraping the surface of your potential, nor do I think you have any impact on the world that you want. And then she said, you know, there's nobody on this planet I'd rather take a bet on than you. We took a big bet on you once and it paid off. Why don't we double down on that bet and see what you can do? And so, you know, this was one of those moments where I was flooded with fear, flooded with a whole bunch of emotions. And I had to spend three months really unpacking it with complete awareness, complete intentionality, understanding where my blocks were and ultimately came to the decision that I needed to embrace the pain of walking away from the easy button, from the sure thing, to avoid the suffering of not ever knowing what I could become or what I'd be capable of doing from an impact perspective.   Brian: So you fast forward to today and you know, I spent 10 months unpacking that business left at the time, the best year ever in that industry, the year I left and was simultaneously building the foundation for where we could go. And, you know, I'm not sure if I said it or not yet on this show. I think I did. Yeah, but but that's that's now where I'm so clear and convicted on this billion lives. I genuinely believe, like we've got an opportunity to to change the world and make people feel at a level that they've never felt and feel free. And so I know what that miserable, dark place looks like. I've spent a lot of my life in moments like that. No one deserves to feel that way, but a lot of people do. And right now, I feel more free, more fulfilled, happier and more like myself than I have in my entire life. Everybody deserves to feel how I'm feeling right now. And so when I started to get the curiosity, I didn't even lean into it. My wife pushed me. And she, along with my other coach, told me what I needed to hear, not what I wanted to hear, and it's not lost on me, the courage it took in my wife to take that leap of faith with me and give me the push knowing it could upset her entire lifestyle. And so that's what I had to honor because my kids are watching, I don't want my kids to see me do what I want my kids to see me do what's right.   Joe: Incredible. I love it, so your podcast, what are there, is there are there three, is that   Brian: You   Joe: Right   Brian: Know what, I actually   Joe: Or.   Brian: Don't even have my own yet,   Joe: Ok.   Brian: I I'm in the process of developing a few. What you've probably seen as I have Bogarts Bullets, which is a regular consistent thing, but and it's going to be repurposed into a podcast. But right now it's just on YouTube and it goes on all my social channels. We have a marriage hack's string that we've started that my wife and I, we've now done we've only done one episode, but we repurpose it into three. And then my content team and strategist's decided that there are a whole lot of thought leaders, influencers, speakers in the world that create intellectual content similar to what I have for years, Bogarts, bullets putting things out, podcasts, other pieces of content to get distributed. And then there's bloggers that are much more niche, but there's nobody that's doing both. And so he's like. If you talk about how you live, you talk about these philosophies, you talk about these guiding principles, these lessons, these things that you do. Why don't we pull the curtain back and show people behind the scenes that that's actually how you operate. And so those are the three things that you've probably found is bogus bullets, the marriage tax and then the No Limits blog. And all three of those, although they're not currently set up as podcasts, one of them will be repurposed that way. And then I'm actually in the process right now. I'll be a co-host on at least two podcasts. We're going to be launching here soon, likely three if this other concept takes off. The podcasting world has kind of changed my world in a lot of ways, in a way I never saw coming. And I've been on over one hundred and fifty other people shows in the last seven, eight months, and it's allowed me to have opportunities to meet people like you. Right. And the connection with Ken Joslyn and Steve Sams. Right. Which both were people that I was on their platforms, on their shows. Like it's allowed me to align myself with incredible individuals on this planet so that we can truly have collective impact. So those are the three shows that currently exist. But they're not podcast currently.   Joe: Got it. OK, so you have things coming up, I know that you're doing the Ken Joslin's   Brian: Yep,   Joe: Boot camp, right?   Brian: Yep, yep, I'm doing his boot camp in April, I've done two of his I've got some other speaking events coming up. And then we've also got a few things launching that I'm really excited about. So we're still doing all of our work with no limits university, which is really like the concepts and the philosophies to help people understand who they are, leading them on intrinsic journey. But we also have another entity in a movement that's called Who before what that's launching as we speak, which is really an attempt to help us change the language and narrative in society about putting more emphasis on what we do versus who we are. And it's not that one or both don't matter. It's that they both matter. But one needs to lead, which is who. And so we're going to change the narrative because it's this whole idea that you go to a networking event. And the first question everybody asks is, what do you do? And even if you asked who you are, like, tell me who you are. Ninety eight percent of people answer with what they do, not who they are.   Joe: So   Brian: Part of the   Joe: True.   Brian: Pain and suffering that exists on this planet, as so many people don't know who they are. And so a lot of the core of the work with everything we do with our coaching and the No Limits university and those things are all about that. But we're actually creating a specific movement to bring into conscious awareness this idea of who needs to be before what.   Joe: I love that is the university and the who before. What are they separate from your actual coaching piece   Brian: They're   Joe: That you   Brian: All   Joe: Do   Brian: There, it's all kind of integrated,   Joe: Ok?   Brian: So, yeah, my my I would say my one to one coaching is the only thing that's kind of outside of that umbrella. It all fits on the same coaching philosophies. But just with the people I work with one to one, it's it's just inherently different than the other structure that we have. But it's the same philosophies, what you'll know about me and a lot of what we do with the no limits you and everything is this idea that we truly have the ability, if we are aware enough and influential enough to build a life of alignment that can become self-regulating. So for me, I'm very clear on who I am. I'm very clear on where I'm headed. I'm very clear on the impact I want to have, as well as the hierarchy of importance in my life. Family being first. Right. After that, because I'm so clear, everything I do is in alignment with where I'm headed. So when you ask the question, are they all, yeah, they're integrated because they're all holistically apart and in alignment of where we're going to impact a billion lives. How those are translated look a little bit different. But they are all towards the same intent, which is to impact a billion lives.   Joe: So it's the YouTube channel, it's eventually some podcasts on their way. It's but no limits university. There's the Who before what portion of that? There's the coaching, which is one on one with you. Correct. Speaking engagements. When when? I mean, obviously, you still do it virtually, but you're actually going to be live at that bootcamp coming   Brian: Yep,   Joe: Up in   Brian: Yep.   Joe: April. So as that opens up again, I mean, when I watched you on the Growth Now summit, which I attended, your portion of, it was brilliant. I   Brian: Oh,   Joe: You   Brian: Thank   Joe: Know, I   Brian: You.   Joe: Just said, I mean, you're an amazing speaker.   Brian: Thank you.   Joe: You're just not talking to us. But you bring people in to the story.   Brian: Thank   Joe: And   Brian: You.   Joe: I just   Brian: Thank   Joe: Sat   Brian: You.   Joe: There and I was like, oh, this is unbelievable. Like, I would have paid thousands of dollars to   Brian: Thank   Joe: Watch.   Brian: You.   Joe: So it   Brian: Thank   Joe: Was amazing.   Brian: You.   Joe: Did I miss somewhere on your website? Because it's just so much on there. I can't figure out.   Brian: No,   Joe: But   Brian: You   Joe: Is   Brian: Didn't miss you didn't   Joe: It.   Brian: Miss anything. There's going to be new sections actually built on the website, Zoom. Let's put it this way. You listed a lo

Zach speaks with Dr. Brian Williams, an accomplished surgeon and highly sought-after public speaker who shares his insights on racial trauma, resilience, and social justice. Thrust into the national spotlight in July 2016, Dr. Williams became a voice for racial reconciliation after a Dallas sniper shot 12 police officers at an anti-police brutality protest. At a press conference days after the tragedy, he voiced his concerns as an African-American man with regard to racial injustice and simultaneously decried violence targeted at law enforcement. He now travels nationally inspiring audiences about resilience and social justice at the intersection of race, violence, and medicine. He walks us through his actions that tragic day, talks a bit about his experience with the Dallas Citizens Police Review Board, and offers several pieces of wisdom for young professionals seeking to build effective partnerships for their personal and professional development and journey.Connect with Dr. Williams via LinkedIn or Twitter, and check out his personal website by clicking here.Interested in his podcast Race, Violence & Medicine? Follow this link to listen on a variety of platforms.Visit our website.TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and you know what we do. We have authentic conversations with real folks to center black and brown experiences at work, and so if you are working any type of 9-to-5, even if it's your own 9-to-5, or maybe you're working, like, a 3-to-6. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know what y'all--you know, if you're out here working, you're grinding, you're at work, you're an underrepresented person, this is the platform for you. And so we have these conversations--and it's not just me talking to y'all or kind of, like, ranting into the ether. It's more so me having conversations with black and brown executives and different types of professionals, public servants, entrepreneurs, educators, activists, creatives, artists, and we're doing this all with the goal of amplifying underrepresented voices at work. And so again, we have a really great conversation. The person that I'm really excited to talk to today and introduce to you all, Dr. Brian H. Williams. Dr. Brian H. Williams is a first-generation college graduate who earned a degree in Aeronautical Engineering from the United States Air Force Academy. After six years of active duty military service, he followed a different call to serve and enrolled into medical school at the University of South Florida Morsani College of Medicine. He did his general surgery residency at Harvard Medical School/Brigham and Women’s Hospital in Boston, Massachusetts and a fellowship in trauma surgery and surgical critical care at Emory University/Grady Memorial Hospital in Atlanta, Georgia. Upon completion of his training, Dr. Williams served on the faculty at UT Southwestern Medical Center in Dallas, Texas, where he taught and mentored students, residents, and fellows. Dr. Williams is well-known for his role in treating victims of the July 7, 2016, Dallas police shooting. He was the trauma surgeon working on the seven injured officers who were emergently transported to Parkland Memorial Hospital. At a press conference following the tragedy, his heartfelt comments about racism, gun violence and policing touched thousands. Unbeknownst to Dr. Williams, his impromptu speech became a viral media event, and his life of comfortable anonymity ended. In addition--Brian: That's a mouthful. [both laugh]Zach: It is, but it's real though. In addition to his work as a trauma surgeon, Dr. Williams travels the country as a thought-provoking speaker sharing his unique insight on resilience, gun violence, and racial justice. He is also an opinion writer featured in the Dallas Morning News and hosts the podcast Race, Violence & Medicine. So y'all, we're gonna have all the links. If y'all don't remember the black doctor who was--it was all on the Twitters, you know what I'm saying, it was all on the social media. If y'all don't remember all that, we're gonna have all of his reference materials in the show notes, but, you know, that will be after y'all listen to the show. Dr. Williams, how are you doing?Brian: I'm doing fantastic, Zach. Thanks for having me on.Zach: Man, thank you for being here. So let's get into it. You were already known within your field, but you were thrust into the national spotlight after treating victims of the July 7th, 2016, Dallas police shooting. You were the trauma surgeon working, and so you were actively, right--like, I remember even in that video, you were--it was clear that you had just got done working. Like, you were--you were working. You know, I'm really curious. Considering your personal experience with police and the history of policing in black communities, what was going through your mind, like, just treating--like, in that situation? Can you talk about just what--of course there's no question as to your oath and your commitment to deliver care, but what I'm trying to understand--so, like, I want to be very upfront with that. What I'm trying to understand though is, considering your own experiences and your own identity, like, what was it like? Was it automatic? Was it just like, "Look, this is what I do?" Like, can you walk us through that experience?Brian: Sure. In that moment, when the officers were coming in, nothing else mattered. I just fell back on my training. So my experiences, my life experiences, that was not a factor in how I approached what I did, and, you know, it's a large team of nurses and doctors and students. So it wasn't just me, although I was the trauma surgeon that was on call that evening at the hospital. But in that moment, I'd give them the same sort of care I give any patient. Like, I do not differentiate based on occupations or race or ethnicity or--you know, all of those ways we try to categorize people as being different. That matters not to me. At the moment, I just saw a human being that was severely injured and critical, and I am trained to do things to try to save their lives. So that was what--like you said, it was automatic. It just was a crisis. My training kicked in, and I went to work.Zach: And so then talk to me a little bit about, like, so--you know, so after the care had been delivered and, you know, after you were done performing surgery and care, again, to the victims, you know, you had the conference. At what point did then, like, all of the emotions and thoughts and things come rushing back?Brian: Well, let me walk through the timeline of those few days. The shooting was on July 7th, 2016, but you may or may not recall that on July 5th, there was a shooting, Alton Sterling, in Baton Rouge, and on July 6th, that was Philando Castile in Minnesota. And then we had July 7th. So then on July 7th there were actually protests happening all around the country to bring awareness to this ongoing issue. People remember Dallas because of the tragic shooting that occurred there. This is happening all over the country. So I was aware, in those preceding couple of days, of those two deaths, and you could imagine that the public discourse was basically a screaming match about black lives matter and blue lives matter and all lives matter, and there's all this negative talk. So when I went to work on July 7th, I was aware of that but didn't expect this sort of tragedy to occur. A few days later, on July 11th, was when the press conference occurred that you referenced. So there was a couple days between the time of the shooting and the time of the press conference where I pretty much just cut myself off from society. I wasn't watching the news. I wasn't listening to the radio. I wasn't reading the paper. I just was in my own little bubble, because that night was--it's the worst night of my career. It's something I still think about to this day. It just really got to me for a number of reasons, but the big thing was that this was fueled by intolerance and hate and racism, and all of these elements that we don't discuss about in an honest, open manner fueled this event, and to lose any patient--but that happened on a night that was particularly volatile and unfortunately became historic for all of the wrong reasons. And going into the press conference, these were the things that I was thinking about - you know, what's going on in our country? What role am I playing to bring us together? Am I doing enough? What have I done with my life? There was just a mix of a lot of different emotions and thoughts which I didn't have the answers [to] or wasn't really able to process completely, which takes us to the press conference that you mentioned, and that all kind of spilled out in the moment without any plans or preparation. I just planned to sit there, just to be seen, because my wife felt that the country needed to see that there was a black surgeon there that night trying to do the right thing.Zach: You know, so let's talk a little bit about the conference, right? So, like, at the conference following the shooting, you said, quote, "I want the Dallas police officers to see me, a black man. I support you. I will defend you. I will care for you. That does not mean I do not fear you." Can we talk about, like, what you meant here? Like, what does that--and it's interesting, right, because it's almost--one could almost argue that those things are... like, there's a duality there, right? So, like, when you said this, what did you mean?Brian: Right, and that's exactly the word I was going to use. That's the duality that I think many black people in this country deal with. So to break it down into two parts, when I said "I support you," I'm a child of a military veteran. I have a lot of military veterans in my family. I went to the Air Force Academy. I was an Air Force officer. So I know what it means to wear a uniform, I know what it means to serve something greater than yourself. I know what it means to make sacrifices to serve a greater good. So although I'm not a police officer, that sort of ethos is not something that was foreign to me. Zach: And so, you know, because you took all of this--like, you took all of this, right? Like, so your fear, your frustration, your dedication as a public servant and as a consummate professional, and you mobilized that into an effective partnership to actualize change, right? And so here's my challenge though, right? My challenge is I can't look at any point in American history where police have done right by black people. So, like, just the historicity of policing in America for black bodies, and, like, not to mention, like, the pathological narratives that majority media propagates, as well as the institutional systems and laws that make holding police accountable so incredibly challenging. And so I'm really curious, 'cause I--I know that I'm not the only person who has these challenges. I don't doubt that, Dr. Williams, that some species of this has been on your mind at some point of time, and so I'm curious to know, like, with those things in mind, what was your journey to become, like, the chair of the Citizens Police Review Board, and can you explain what it meant to manage through those relationship dynamics?Brian: Yes, I'm on-board with what you're saying as far as the challenges, and I guess we'll get back to that in a second, but as far as the journey to the Citizens Police Review Board, that was--the mayor's office reached out to me about potentially joining the board as a chair, and that was because a prior chair was turning out, so he needed someone new. Now, the Citizens Police Review Board is meant to be this body that will hear complaints from citizens about their interactions with police, and they can bring them to the board, we can deliberate and try to give them some resolution. So that's what the board existed for at that time. I didn't know that the board existed when I was asked. I didn't know what it did. I didn't know if it was worthwhile. I didn't know if I had the time. I had all of these questions about the board, but I asked around and learned about it, and I said--I thought, "Yes, this can be something good for the community. It can be a voice for citizens," and I felt that I could make a positive contribution to all of this. It was definitely challenging. I learned a lot about the Dallas Police Department. I learned a lot about community activists. I learned a lot about various board members in City Hall. So there are a lot of stakeholders working towards public safety, and to bring them all together to come to some sort of collaborative effort to ensure that the public has trust in their police department is challenging, and I think it's actually now an ongoing journey now that the board has been revamped and given more support as far as resources, personnel and a budget, which we did not have when I was a chair. Zach: And so I'm curious though, right, like, when you talk about--it's just interesting, because I don't think that we have a lot of examples in American history when it comes to, like, relationships where the underrepresented voices have, like, actual authority over a majority group and things don't become strained, like, either quickly or over time, and I think authority and accountability is a struggle for anybody, right? So I don't think that that's unique or exclusive to dominant and sub-dominant groups, but I'm really curious about, like, what did it look like, especially--like you said, at the time that you were the chair there was not a budget. Like, what did it look like to really be the chair on this review board and talk about right behaviors? Like, do you feel like you were able to have honest dialogue? Do you believe that there was, like--do you believe that you had the actual authority to kind of, like, drive substantive change? Like, what did that look like for you?Brian: So I think that everyone involved knew exactly who they were getting with me as chair. For one, they saw my statements at that press conference. So I [?] there. Two, I wrote an opinion piece that published in the Dallas Morning News where--actually, I wrote two regarding the police, one that talked about the history of slave patrols and how this distrust in black communities goes back for hundreds of years. It just doesn't happen overnight. And I talked about, you know, police departments have historically been there to maintain control over communities of color. It wasn't about public safety or protecting their rights, it was about keeping communities of color in line. So that is the history with which we need to reckon in order to move forward. So everybody knew exactly what they were getting with Dr. Brian Williams, [laughs] which, you know, had its pluses and minuses. I think the benefit was they couldn't accuse me of having any kind of agenda, right? I was criticized from both law enforcement and, you know, black civilians for the comments I made. And I, you know, received praise as well. So I feel I was pretty much solidly in the middle of all of that that I could equally appeal to and offend anybody that was involved in moving the Police Review Board forward.Zach: So your journey didn't stop there, right? Like, what did you learn about yourself? Like, what were some of the main things that you learned about yourself that then prompted your transition from Dallas into the South Side of Chicago?Brian: Well, and I'll just say, you know, that last comment I was obviously kidding when I said offending people. [both laugh] But I guess the point there was I was moving forward with this mission to ensure a voice for the citizens of Dallas with integrity, and I did not try to have any sort of self-gain from it. It was about serving the city of Dallas and the people of Dallas.Zach: Which is rare, right? 'Cause I think, especially, like, in the political climate that we're in today, right, like, you see these voices, like, on the far right who--like, they're black voices. Like, they're tokens, like, coming and, like, sharing specific talking points and narratives without any, like, real intellectual substance behind them, and I think what really intrigued me about you--'cause I've spent a majority of my life in Dallas, and my mother is still in Dallas. I have family in Dallas, and so I was very familiar with--like, with your work and your statements, and they run very true to me and sensitive for me considering that I'm from that area, right? So what I'm curious about is did you ever feel any pressure to kind of, like, lean one way or the other or take on certain agendas or certain talking points that you yourself didn't agree with from a principle perspective?Brian: The short answer to that is yes, and I should say, you know, I wasn't immediately embraced by citizens that were working on police reform. [They didn't?] know who I was. You know, I was a new quantity, and people have been working on this reform for decades, right? These are Dallas natives that were born and bred here in Dallas, and I was--Zach: The activist culture is deep, right? There's a lot of community servants and activists who have been on the ground. So yeah, I'm right there with you. And it's hard. It's hard to break in, right? Like, when you're new and, like, the main thing you have when it comes to community activism--from what I understand, because I would not consider myself a community activist because I know that I want to respect that work, but what I understand is, like, really it's your relationships--your social capital is, like, gold, right? That's, like, the only thing you have, and if you're unknown, then it's hard to, like, you know, break the ice.Brian: Exactly. And I will say your podcast is a form of activism.Zach: I appreciate that. Thank you. Thank you, Dr. Williams, man. You got me blushing, man. [both laugh] Brian: You're doing it, man. You're doing it.Zach: Man, I really appreciate it. So let's talk about South Side, Chicago. Like, you transitioned, you went there. Like, what was the call or the impetus to transition from Dallas to Chicago?Brian: Well, my journey in health care--I mean, I've always been very mission-driven about what I can do to eradicate racial health care disparities, and that is a nation-wide mission, right? That can occur anywhere. Now, as a trauma surgeon, I'm particularly focused on gun violence as well. So South Side, Chicago, you know, there's a lot of gun violence here. It's frequently talked about in the media in ways that aren't--I think that dehumanizes the population that's there living within these violent communities. There was a new trauma center that opened up in the area, and several of my mentors were here at the trauma center, so there was this perfect storm of the mission that I want to serve with a community that was very active in getting this trauma center here built with people I know that had flocked here, and I said, "You know what? I would like to be a part of having impact that will cross generations," right? And I think it's happening right now, and that's why I wanted to join this group here. As far as Dallas, you know, that was not an easy decision. I had been in Dallas--I was in Dallas for 9 years. That's the longest I've been in one spot my whole life. It's now my de facto home. [laughs] If Texas will accept me, it's pretty much my de facto home. I've been moving my entire life as a military kid, as a military officer, you know? I feel home in Dallas. I still follow what's going on in Dallas. I'm interested in what's gonna happen to my home city. Zach: And so, you know, I'm interested, right, in addition to this you're a respected health care leader. Can we talk a little bit about how your work and the legacy of racism impacts health care inequity, right? Like, so you're coming in, and you're in Chicago, and yes, like, you're supporting--there's a gun violence issue in South Side, Chicago, and I--you know, honestly, I really do wish that some folks never found out about Chicago, because I feel as if it's, like, the default when anybody ever wants to pathologize black folks. It's very annoying. It's just like, "Golly, I wish that--anything Chicago, I just wish y'all wouldn't have known about it." But, you know, in your work, can you talk a little bit about, like, how health care inequity shows up, right? Like, that's been an ever-growing talking point or just point of awareness, right, like, in headlines and mainstream media, growing awareness around health care inequity for black and brown folks juxtaposed to majority members, white counterparts. Can we talk a little bit about, like, what you've seen from a perspective of inequity and kind of, like, how you've combated that as a black surgeon?Brian: I would like to see us get to a point where we just get real about what health care disparities are and health care inequities. This is the legacy of racism in this country. It's about health, poverty, housing, education, employment. Like, there are so many things to unpack and address. Health care is one part, and that's where I happen to be, you know, an expert in that particular field, but I recognize that what I do in the hospital is not gonna be enough to uplift these communities in need. And like you said, I don't like to pathologize Chicago either. I'm coming here to help, but I don't know how to talk about it without being offensive to people that live here, right? Like, who am I to talk about their community? So I'm trying to be sincere about my desire to contribute, to uplift the community without being offensive to the folks that live here and are actually gonna be doing the work for a long time. So I completely agree with you that even I feel like an outsider sometimes in doing this work.Zach: So then, you know, I think--and I'm really excited, and I'm thankful that you've been able to come on the podcast, because I think what really intrigued me about having you on, beyond you just sharing your story and the work that you've done and that you do, is around, like, the concept of effective relationships and building relationships with individuals that you may not feel immediately safe with or comfortable with, and I know that that involves a certain level of emotional labor for you, even today, right? I'm curious though, like, if you could give younger professionals any advice about building relationships--and when I say relationships, I'm thinking more like coalitions for your personal and professional development and journey. Like, if you could, like, boil it down to, like, three things, what would they be?Brian: I would say, first and foremost to young professionals, nothing is worth sacrificing your dignity for acceptance. What I mean is that the papers and the promotions and the titles, like, if you have to leave part of who you are at home, if you have to compromise your integrity and your ethics and your purpose to achieve those goals, those goals aren't worth it, so do not hand over your dignity for acceptance. That's one. Two, you need to set your boundaries. If you don't set your boundaries someone else will set them for you, and you may not like them. And actually I believe that if you set your boundaries, that will lead to greater connectedness with people, not less, because you are respecting who you are and what you stand for. You're not letting anyone else compromise that for you. And the third thing is just always keep your end goal in mind. As you're going through life, your profession, like, think about what it is you want to accomplish, where you want to be. If you never lose sight of that, then all that noise and chaos that you encounter on the way, you'll be able to filter through that and not lose sight of the end objective. So people call it your North Star, your purpose, but I think your end goal, whatever that is, never lose sight of that.Zach: Man, Dr. Williams, this has been a great conversation. I just gotta thank you again for being a guest on the podcast. Any shout-outs or parting words before we let you go?Brian: No, Zach. First of all, thank you for--I'm honored that you asked me to be on the show, and I'm glad that we were able to make this happen. And I'm always happy to engage with listeners. They can check out my website, BrianWilliamsMD.com. That's Brian with an I. I'm pretty active on Twitter at @BHWilliamsMD. But if you do drop me a line, email or direct message, I will get back to you. And you talked about making connections. That's one way that I have increased my connectivity with the universe. Thanks again.Zach: Man, thank you so much. All right, y'all, you know what it is. You've been listening to Dr. Williams, surgeon, speaker, educator, public servant, man... just overall dope individual. 'Til next time, this has been Zach. We'll catch y'all next time. Peace.

Angela Bassa is the director of data science and head of data science and machine learning at iRobot, a technology company focused on robotics (you might have clean floors thanks to a Roomba). Prior to joining iRobot, Angela wore several different hats, including working as a financial analyst at Morgan Stanley, the senior manager of big data analytics and platform engineering at EnerNOC, and even a scuba instructor in the U.S. Virgin Islands. Join Angela and I as we discuss the role data science plays in robotics and explore: Why Angela doesn’t believe in a division between technical and non-technical skill Why Angela came to iRobot and her mission What data breadcrumbs are and what you should know about them The skill Angela believes matters most when turning data science into a producer of decision support Why the last mile of the UX is often way longer than one mile The critical role expectation management plays in data science, how Angela handles delivering surprise findings to the business, and the marketing skill she taps to help her build trust Resources and Links Twitter: @AngeBassa Angela’s Website iRobot Designing for Analytics Seminar Quotes from Today's Episode “Because these tools that we use sometimes can be quite sophisticated, it's really easy to use very complicated jargon to impart credibility onto results that perhaps aren't merited. I like to call that math-washing the result.” — Angela “Our mandate is to make sure that we are making the best decisions—that we are informing strategy rather than just believing certain bits of institutional knowledge or anecdotes or trends. We can actually sort of demonstrate and test those hypotheses with the data that is available to us. And so we can make much better informed decisions and, hopefully, less risky ones.” — Angela “Data alone isn't the ground truth. Data isn't the thing that we should be reacting to. Data are artifacts. They're breadcrumbs that help us reconstruct what might have happened.” — Angela [When getting somebody to trust the data science work], I don't think the trust comes from bringing someone along during the actual timeline. I think it has more to do with bringing someone along with the narrative.—Angela “It sounds like you've created a nice dependency for your data science team. You’re seen as a strategic partner as opposed to being off in the corner doing cryptic work that people can't understand.” — Brian “When I talk to data scientists and leaders, they often talk about how technical skills are very easy to measure. You can see them on paper, you can get them in the interview. But there are these other skills that are required to do effective work and create value.” — Brian Transcript Brian: Welcome back to Experiencing Data. Brian here, of course, and I'm happy to have the Head of Data Science, Data Engineering, and Machine Learning at iRobot on the line, Angela Bassa. How are you? Angela: I am great, Brian. How are you? Brian: I'm doing great. What's shaking today? You're up in northern Massachusetts, outside of Boston, is that correct? Angela: Yep, just outside of Boston. Brian: Yes. You're in the leaf, the leaf zone, probably. Angela: It's gorgeous out! We're in peak foliage. It's really, really quite gorgeous out. Brian: 

James: Hey, audience and listeners, this is James Kandasamy from Achieve Wealth Podcast where we focus a lot on value-add, commercial real estate investing and we usually talk to commercial real estate operators who have been very active buying deals nowadays.  Today, I have Brian Murray. So if you have not heard about Brian Murray, he's the author of the best-selling and award-winning book: Crushing It in Apartments and Commercial Real Estate. And he owns almost 700 units right now on his own and I think out of 700, 600 of it is apartments and 100 units are on office sites. Hey, Brian, welcome to the show.  Brian: I'm really happy to be here, James. Thanks for having me. James: Really happy to have you here. And so tell me about, how did you go from 0 to 600 multifamily 0 to 700 asset classes on your own without syndication?   Brian: Yeah, well, you know, I started 12 years ago and I'm located in Upstate New York. That's quite a bit different market than New York City. But my first property was an office building and it was a distressed office building and from that very first deal, I did a lot of value-adds. Frankly, I really didn't know what I was doing, I was kind of figuring stuff out as I went along but I progressively made that property perform better over a couple of years and added a ton of value. On that deal, I assumed the mortgage and on my second deal, I did an owner/finance situation. It was another property that was half full, I filled it up and refinanced out of both of those and bought three more properties and followed that path the entire way. Which is find well-located properties that were not well managed or had some other large value-add component, exercise that value add and then refinance, take cash out and buy more properties. And that's the exact path that I followed to get to where I'm at today. James: That's crazy, which is good. I mean, that's the model that, I mean, it's an absolute value-add model, which is basically the theme of this podcast. And so did you buy and then improve it and then refinance the money out or did you sell it and I didn't get that far, can you clarify that? Brian: Yeah. So I refinance the money out. I am primarily buying hold, still to this day. But especially in the first 10 years, I think I sold one or two properties, smaller properties, for the most part, during that time. I am selling some of my smaller properties right now to redeploy those funds into larger properties, but my strategy has really been buying hold. James: Awesome. Awesome. So before we go further, I want to clarify about your book, Crushing It. I mean, I remember asking this question to you when we met face-to-face. So did Gary take the 'Crushing' name from you or you took it from him? Which one is that?  Brian: You know, so his book, Crushing It, came out about a year after mine but he launched a book called Crush It prior to when mine came out. But he took the Crushing It and you know, but that's fine. It doesn't matter. It's all good.  James: Well, it must be a good name because both of you are like a best seller, you know, in your own domain. So awesome. So right now what's your plan? I mean you own this many units on your own and what's your plan right now?  Brian: So right now, I'm really focused on diversifying. I was really excited to do my first Mastermind, which was last year, which is how you and I met and I met some great people at that Mastermind and highly recommend that to other people; surround yourself with other folks that are doing what you're doing. But when I went off to this Mastermind, it was really eye-opening for me because pretty much everybody there was doing syndication and it was a model that was really new for me and I just learned a ton about what people were doing.  And my model has worked great for me up to this point, but I've reached a size, we're growing purely organically. It's becoming more challenging to maintain that pace of growth. I think also with valuations at a higher point, it's more and more challenging each year to pull that much value-add out with refis. I think another factor that's come into play is I've been very, very dedicated to putting every dollar that I've earned back into my real estate. That's been a been a big part of how I've done what I've done is to continuously reinvest back in. As a result of that, to this point, I've been living fairly frugally and you know at a certain point, you want to not have to put every dollar back in but you know, to maintain that growth rate, I've got to look at other options. I also want to diversify geographically because most of my properties are in one location. And so I'm in the middle of my first syndication right now and I've met so many good people that now, I'm developing partners and looking at new markets and it's very exciting for me. I love to learn, I love to try new things and getting into these other markets and, you know, meeting accomplished people like yourself, it's very motivating. So I'm just super excited about it.  James: Yeah, it's eye-opening when you go and talk to different people who are doing the same level as you are doing much more higher level because you can see a lot of different thought processes and how people do things. So why are you moving towards syndication? I mean, you own like so many units on your own, can you go into a bit more detail on why do you think syndication is going to be beneficial for you right now in this market cycle as well or on your investment side?  Brian: Well, you know syndication, it does open up a lot more opportunities in terms of size. So for example, right now, I'm looking very closely at an apartment complex that's approximately 300 units. It's in a market that's new for me that I've been doing a lot of research on and that would be a real challenge to try to pull off on my own. It really wouldn't be possible right now. So the property that I've purchased strictly on my own, without raising any outside money, I did last year, it was 126 units and you know to try to purchase something that's 300 plus units that wouldn't be possible for me right now. So it's pretty exciting and I think another thing is I really enjoy working with the idea of doing some projects with partners and getting into some of these new markets. So, there's another piece of it that's kind of exciting is, I've reached a point where I've done pretty well for myself and the idea of helping other investors who want to put their money to work to achieve their goals, I think that's going to be rewarding too. That if a project does really well that, it's all those limited partners that come in that can then improve their lives through their investment as well. And if I can be a part of that, I think I'll find that very rewarding.  James: Okay, that's awesome. So scalability is important and you think of helping others as well to make money, especially I think other investors or other GPs who needs your skills, I would say? Brian:  Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and that's one of the things that's great too is I've found that it's meeting these other people that are doing it, I've got a different experience. So just like I'm learning from people like you, I'm finding that partners I can bring some different perspectives and value to the table as well. So you always want to partner with people that have strengths in areas that are different from you and that's what makes a strong team. James: Absolutely, especially in commercial real estate because the number of knobs that you can tune, there are so many knobs and especially like in multifamily because it's very management intensive compared to the triple net, other commercial properties. Multi-family is very management intensive and it gives a lot of ways to make more money or to scale down or to scale up. Even though you'd be really, really skilled at that but it just gives you a lot more opportunity. And the lease is one year term or six months term; you can quickly raise or reduce rents, it gives you a lot more fungibility, I would say. I mean, you have like SAS, we talked, in the beginning. You have like 600 units multifamily and 100 office space? Brian: Yes.  James: So can we go a bit more detail into the office? What kind of office is it and how did you strategically balance within the 600 and 100 office? Is it optimistic or what did you see and why did you do it?  Brian: So I started off with the office and actually, my second property was retail and so, starting on that commercial side was really interesting. I think one of the things that did for me is really emphasized my focus on customer service and customer care with tenants. And when I tried my first multifamily, I think that there were differences but they're also a lot of similarities. So the value-added approach that I was taking to office retail worked just as well with multifamily. And our focus on really taking care of our tenants as our customers really served us really well in that area also. Over time, as recently as two or three years ago, we had reached a point where up to that point we had more office and Retail and then about two years ago, I would say, we were 50/50 and now we're closer to two thirds, maybe even 70% multifamily with the rest commercial in terms of the makeup of our portfolio. So as time went by, we've really gravitated toward multifamily and that's our 100% focus right now. I think the biggest thing is that there's a number of things we like about multi-family. From our experience with commercial, you've always got a little bit more risk because you tend to have, not always, but you often will have tenants that comprise a disproportionately large percentage of your income and that can leave you really vulnerable if somebody leaves. So, on more than one occasion, we've had a commercial property where someone that takes up more than half of the space in that property, leaves unexpectedly. And then you've got with one tenant leaving, you have a property that is negative cash flow. And if you don't have a portfolio in place to support that, that can be devastating and it's really not fun even if you have a portfolio to perform it. And then when you go to backfill that space, it's more challenging in commercial properties because you oftentimes have to find the exact right tenant for that space, for that location, for the tenant mix and the property, for the configuration of the floor plan. There's a lot of things that you know, different commercial tenants are looking for.  If you just adjust the rents up and down or maybe offer some concessions, a lot of times, the market doesn't immediately react to that. So turning that dial like you do in multifamily, you have less control. So if you're looking for a particular type of commercial tenant, it could be, it's not unusual for us to sit on a vacant space for one two or more years before the right tenant comes along and fits in and takes that space. With multifamily, you've got those dials that you can turn and say, Hey, you know, we're going to run a special. We're going to bump rents, we're going to drop rents and you usually will see a pretty quick reaction from the market to the changes that you make and from my perspective, that's better.  You always want to have more control and the ability to adjust with your market, adjust to combat your competition and different things like that. And frankly, we've enjoyed working with the tenants. I think there's a perception out there that a lot of people would love to invest in commercial because they think they have this idea that working with white collar tenants would be much better, wouldn't have the problems but in our experience, they can be more challenging. They can be more demanding and sometimes even unreasonable with what they're looking for and you don't usually find that as much with the residential tenants in multifamily. We do primarily workforce housing and the people that we deal with there, tend to be good down to earth people and reasonable. So we appreciate that.  James: And when you talk about office, this is the normal office tenants, I guess?  Brian: Yeah full-spectrum, mostly professional tenants. We've got plenty of medical tenants. We have lawyers, accountants, all types, we've got not-for-profit offices, engineers and architects that would pretty much any type of white-collar professionals. James: Got it. That's very interesting. So when was the aha moment that, hey, I should do multifamily because you are focusing a lot on office, what was that triggering moment where you say, okay, I may need to look at this multi-family? Brian:  Well, I don't know if there was a specific moment. I think it happened gradually over time. When we had about 50/50 multifamily and Commercial, I think one of the big things was watching the performance of the two halves of the portfolio and seeing which half was performing better and part of it had to do with the types of value-add projects we were finding and I thought we were better able to execute on the value-adds on the multifamily side. And that portion of our portfolio just kept outperforming the commercial side and I just saw in the market that we're in, more opportunity there and I felt like it was more stable income based. So, I think I think it just happened gradually over time and you kind of tend to slowly move in the direction that's performing well and where the needs are in your Marketplace. James:  Got it. So all the deals that you have done on multifamily, how did you choose? I mean all these deals are in Upstate, New York, is that right? Brian: Yes. James: So you may not choose the city because that's where you live, the area. But how did you select the submarket? Okay, this deal is good in this submarket, what are the parameters that you looked at When you look at a deal in multi-family? Brian: So, we have a really close familiarity with the subtleties of the market and so it's fairly nuanced like there's not one overarching thing. One of the primary drivers of the market where we are is not that far away is a fairly large military base. And so one of the factors that we look at is, well, we definitely welcome military tenants, we have shied away from the properties that are closer to the military base and tend to have a really high percentage of military population. That's just because there's so much turnover, lenders are less excited about lending those properties because they know that long-term, there could be downsizing. A base could close, there's exposure with that. So we have gravitated within our region to the areas that are maybe we will have some military but not be all military and into the communities where people want to live, in the parts of the city that we feel are strong and good safe locations and convenient locations for the major employers in the area. James: Got it. Got it. And on average right now, what is the price per door in that market? Because I never talk to anybody from New York who's buying multifamily. I mean, Upstate, New York,  New York City, but in general, can you give us some guideline on price per door? What cap rated stabilize deals are being bought right now? Brian: Yes, absolutely. So it's a really, really wide range. So that's what I would say at first. The most recent stabilized property that we purchased we paid about 60,000 a door. There are properties selling in the area, 80,000 plus per door, not that often but a lot of the properties we've got, we've purchased a couple of decent sized properties at auction. We've purchased a lot of distressed properties.  The 126 units that we purchased last year, we paid in the 40s per door and that's pretty low for this area actually, but also the occupancy was below 60% when we bought it and it had a lot of deferred maintenance. So I do feel like we got a fair deal and a good deal on that because there was so much upside but there was a reason that it was priced that low. And so you can come along properties in this area that have low price point sometimes even down into the 30s per door, but usually, there's a reason why they might be in severe distress. But for stabilized properties, I think you're mostly looking at maybe 50 to 70 a door.  James: Okay. You also mentioned that you're looking at other markets now?  Brian: Yes. James: And why is that and what're your criteria to look for in other markets?  Brian: So the number one reason is really a risk management type of approach. Where anybody who's come in and taken a close look at our business and one point even a few years back, I had some graduate students come in and they analyzed it and everybody said, hey, you're kind of crazy. You've got all your properties concentrated right here in this one city and now they're all within maybe half an hour drive of that City and there's a lot of risks involved to that.   So if that City that I focused on starts to decline or say that military base that's not that far away, if they downsize then that all affects my portfolio. So I've known for a long time that it would be wise to diversify geographically and it's time to do that. Another factor is frankly, this is not a huge City. It's not a big area that I'm in and we've got limited opportunities for growth here. There's a limited number of properties that come onto the market and realistically, it's time for us to look to other places. So it's a variety of things. James: So let's say you're looking at a new city, a city A and a city B, what do you look for in that city that you think is going to be appealing to you?  Brian: Well, I think there's a variety of different factors. Probably the number one thing that makes the city appealing is job growth, job creation. Being located in Upstate New York, it's not a strong area for job growth. There are pros and cons to being in a market that's undesirable. So I have less competition. I can buy things at much higher cap rates and I can get properties to cash flow better if I have less competition and higher cap rates. So, there's sometimes you can look at it and say, hey, if you're in a market that's less desirable, sometimes you're getting properties at a great deal and there's something to be said for that. But as I look to new markets, I'm trying to find something where cap rates haven't dropped too far and you can get a reasonable return but you've got that benefit of healthy growth in population and jobs. But I think because I'm looking for more geographic to looking for a market that's going to show more stability, it's on an uptrend and just like any other place, no matter what market I'm looking at, I've realized over time just how critical the specific location with any city is.  So almost any City has their good parts and the bad parts and so you could take any market that you choose and break it down into all different, more and less appealing locations. And so, I wouldn't just throw and say, hey, this one city is great, even though the population is growing and you and I talked about a property not that long ago that you are familiar with the location and you very wisely were like, oh, that's not the right deal. It might be a good city, but that's not the right part of the city. James: Correct. So, I mean, you are sitting in Upstate New York, you looked at the entire nation. Can you give us the top three cities that you think that you want to delve in?   James: Brian, so you are sitting in Upstate New York, and you looked at the entire nation, you know how multifamily works because you own 600 on your own. So you just briefly outline what are the things that you look for in a city. So can you name like top three cities that you think that you want to be involved in that you think has a strong growth story?  Brian: Well, it's a work in progress for sure. And what I would say is sort of the candidates that I've narrowed it down to the commonality would be they tend to be the places that people are migrating to and being in Upstate New York where a lot of people are leaving the area, I want to look toward the places they're going.           And so, primarily in the Southeast, pretty much our candidates or everything from starting in probably North Carolina going down to Florida and you know all the way over to maybe the little bit in Texas, but I think Georgia is an interesting market that a lot of people are pursuing. I'm partnering on a project in Kentucky right now and we're looking at North Carolina and there are some very attractive markets in Florida as well.  James: Got it. Got it. Got it. Before I want to go into the deal level analysis that you do, I want to quickly ask this question because you know, it's very unique to you because you had your own deals and now you're going into syndication, right? So what do you think are the skills needed from yourself when you are having your own deals, where you can skip a distribution or whatever happened to the deal is your own problem. So now you're going into syndication, where it involves a lot more people. What do you think is a few skills that syndicators need to be successful in syndication? Brian: Sure. I mean I would say start a start with one of the big ones which is something that I don't have, which is an investor base and that's a whole job unto itself. Over the years doing what I've been doing and getting some acknowledgments for that, I had a lot of people approach me over the years and say, hey, you know, can I invest and I never took them up on that and now I'm doing that. But what I've realized is in getting to know all these folks that are out there that there's a lot of people who are interested in partnering with me who already have those investor bases and have that skill set of managing those investors and taking care of all aspects of that.  So at this point, I'm primarily thinking that I bring more value in the weighing on the underwriting and the property and identifying all the value-add opportunities and making sure that people look at it as more than a spreadsheet because there's so much more. I toured a property last week and was able to uncover quite a few things. The broker that was there. I was one of the last people, they had about 40 tours and I came through and identified some significant value-add opportunities that the broker said no one else picked up on. And I think that that's something I didn't discuss but we've managed all of our own properties that whole time and so, the knowledge that you get from that just brings so much better of analysis to a deal to make sure you're vetting it properly, you're not overpaying, you're also not underpaying and that there might be value there that you're not realizing. That some of the assumptions that you're making for rent growth are real and can actually be feasible for implementation. And so, you know, those are some of the things that I bring and the experience and having the portfolio I have may give lenders a lot of comfort. And so, I'm recognizing that, hey, I could focus on my strengths and bring some things to a partnership and take those areas that I don't have and other people might and partner up. So if someone's going to do it on their own, they've got to have a pretty broad skill set and that's a challenge, to have the operational knowledge and bring that side and also have the people skills and the investor relationships, it's not easy. I have a lot of respect for people that are doing it all. James: Absolutely. So you are two operators, where you underwrite deals, you understand the operation and you're doing your own asset management. You're missing the investor base creation side of it, which I think you are either partnering or slowly building that up so which is awesome. For me, the operators are at the top of the food chain because they are the backbone of the whole deal. They know what's happening in terms of the rents, how many percents of rent increase is happening on each unit? How many units are being turned? What is the make ready period, what's the delinquency? What is the idling unit period? That's a lot of parameters in the multi-family operation which can be optimized and if you know that very well, your underwriting can be very, very solid, I would say.  Brian: And I think you also bring a reality check. I think that the folks that are operating in the syndication space that don't have as much operating experience, it's easy to look at numbers and assumptions in a spreadsheet and it's challenging to actually recognize what that means in terms of the actual human beings who are there living in the apartments, what it means for the contractors and the property managers and whether what you're assuming is even practical. I look at a spreadsheet and I'm looking at it realizing, hey, you know, I looked at it once a day and I told somebody I'm like, do you understand how much drama will be involved in this? So if you haven't done that you don't know. And sometimes that translates into you might need to maybe tone back your rent growth or you might need to say, hey, maybe we implement something like this over time so that we don't have an all-out rebellion on our hands. So, you know, it's a challenge to bring all those things to the table. James: Yeah, I've seen people who come to me, you know, first few deals and say, oh, this is all bills paid, I'm just going to change it to tenant pay bills. I say, well, that's easy. We can see the value. Well, you do not know how much drama you're going to have there and you might not able to do that on a specific property, a specific location. And they say they want to do them; Utility Bill back, they want to increase the rent, they want to charge covered parking, they want to do laundry increase. So many things they want to do at the same time and I can tell you, they don't have the experience actually. But the thing is, a lot of people have been making money even without all the skills. And I always tell them everybody's a champion in a bull market.  Brian: Exactly, yes. A rising tide lifts all ships, right?  James: Correct. So, people may not look at that skill more in detail or give due consideration to that type of skills where the operation is important, but I think it's important if you want to sustain good rent growth across different market cycles. So coming back to underwriting. So right now you are looking at deals, how many percents of deals do you reject immediately by just looking at it?  Brian: Wow, I would say well over 90%.  James: Okay. So the 10% that you have or what do you look for in that 10%? What do you do? What are the steps that you take to look at that 10%? Brian: You know, I think the very, very first thing I do is I look at the T12. I want to start my analysis of a property by looking at actuals. And then I'm going to base the current situation and the actuals, going to kind of weigh that against my own experience. So, how does the target asking price or the whisper price or whatever they have, how does that compare to the actuals?           And then based on my experience looking through those actuals, what do I see that jumps out at me that might create value? And if you look down through and start looking at the comps and really piecing together this puzzle about, what opportunity is really here? Is the valuation based on something that's completely unrealistic? A lot of times, you'll recognize that some brokers are way better than others at doing a realistic model and pro forma and that's much appreciated. Because you see too many where they'll say, oh, you know, the labor is going to be whatever, $300 a door, and you know, hey, that's crazy. Like it should be 1100 a door or 1000 a door in that market and you know, you'll find out that well, it's been managed by the owner and they don't track the labor. But if you see that it's based on the labor is $2000 a door and you know, hey, we could get that to 900 realistically and still do a good job of maintaining that property, then you start to see an opportunity. It's a combination of running numbers and logical analysis based on experience, is really what I would say it boils down to. James: So in a new market, how would you determine payroll and [12:09unintelligible] on property taxes because this differs by market? Brian: Sure. So all those things are going to vary by market, although many of them will fall within a range. So you're going to say, well, in that market it's going to tend to be higher or lower and I will use my best judgment but if it passes a certain level of scrutiny, that's when you want to really get an established reputable local property manager involved who could look at it and say, okay, for this market specifically, these assumptions you've made are realistic or not realistic. The same thing goes with construction costs they could vary and I can look at it and say, I think that new flooring should be this much but hey, maybe in that market, flooring is much more expensive or maybe it's a lot cheaper. So, you know it's going to be within a certain range, but you just need to figure out how you need to tweak it to get to that market.  James: Got it Got it. Got it. I mean since you have your own property management in your own backyard and now I presume you looking at third partying your property management in this new market, is that correct?  Brian: That's correct.  James: So, what would you think is the most important factor to look at that third party property management company? Brian: Well, at this point, I would say yes, we're relying on third-party property managers. We may eventually consider expanding into new markets or operations, but not doing that right now and evaluating the property managers, it's been a very interesting process. I think you need to look at the full picture. I don't think there's any one thing you can look at. For a project that we're underwriting right now, in evaluating the various property managers, of course, we weigh referrals, you know, that's always good to hear referrals but I think one of the things that are appealing about the property manager that we ended up selecting for this project that we're pursuing is they actually specialize in this specific type of property that we're looking at. So, they have a track record and experience of nearly 10,000 units that are specifically C-Class properties that they've done value-add and executed those successfully. And a fair percentage of those are in the specific market that we're looking at and so there's a lot of things that just lined up. I think if I had to pick the one thing from my interaction with this firm because they toured the property with me as well, but I actually was very impressed with their analysis of our underwriting. They actually went through our assumptions and they toured the property on their own before I got there and gave us their own analysis and without us asking, they also toured the comps and gave us some feedback on that. I was impressed. You could tell that they went out of their way to look at the right things. They looked at the types of things that I would look at and they identified things and based on that write-up, I just said, hey, this is a firm that's experienced. They get it. They did a thorough job. They were professional, they were responsive and you know, it really checked a lot of boxes in terms of giving us an overall sense of comfort with the possibility of working with them. James: Awesome. Awesome. Let's go to a bit more on the value-add side because you have done a lot of value-adds because you buy refi and keep it more long-term. So what is the most valuable value-add multifamily from your experience?  Brian: I would say that the most valuable is it's different for almost every property. If I had to pick, you know, I think that sort of the Big Bang low-hanging fruit tends to be the, I'd say, clean paint landscape, kind of like the surface stuff. If a property is dirty and not well kept and then you make it clean and you put a fresh coat of paint and you landscape it, it can change the entire image of property of fairly modest cost and that can have a huge impact. The rent adjustment is sort of obvious, I think everybody looks at that. I guess big picture if the landlord is way undercharging, of course, you know, that's an obvious big easy one, but one thing that we've ended up doing in a number of cases that is less obvious that people almost never talk about is lowering rents. And in the 126 unit that I mentioned earlier, that's under distress, that's the first thing that we did is we went in and by our assessment, they were trying to charge too much which was a major factor in why the occupancy was so low.  So we immediately went in and cut all the rents and that might seem counterintuitive for a value-add person but over the last six months, we've raised the occupancy 25% and one of the big reasons is we lower the rents and so the net change in terms of the net operating income of that property it skyrocketed by lowering rents. So that also further demonstrates that it really varies, you kind of have to you know. It's sort of like if you look at five different people and say, you know, what change would you make in each person to improve their overall wellness? For some people, they might say stop smoking and some people might say, well, that one needs to eat better so you can't kind of really say well, what's the one thing overall?  James: How did you decide to lower the rent? What was the data that you looked at and decide, okay, I just need to reduce the rent here?  Brian: Well, you know, that's one of the fantastic things when you've got so many properties in one market. You know immediately that based on your other operations that something's off. You know when it's low, you know when it's high, you know when the fees don't match what's present in that market or the concessions don't match.  It becomes very simple. If you're going into a new market, you've got to study those comps and do the best you can and hopefully, tour those comps and do your own homework. But it's one of many advantages of having a concentration of properties in one area. In addition to all the many operational efficiencies that you can have is that you have that market specific knowledge that is there's no substitute for.  James: Got it. Got it. So when you decide to lower the rent, I mean it is a counter-intuitive but I think it makes sense in value-add, especially when you go with that kind of low occupancy. You need to do something to bring up the occupancy because once you bring up the occupancy, you can do a lot of other things. Brian: Exactly. James: You can't do it when the occupancy is low and you're adamant about pushing up the rent. So was your thought process, rather than I leave this unit vacant, that's the biggest loss compared to giving [19:48inaudible] $25 or $30 increase that doesn't make sense.  Brian: Yes. That's right. So, you know that's been one of the strategies that I've adhered to and has worked well; you lower the rents and lease it up and then you make improvements as you go and then you raise rents from there. Nothing more expensive than vacant space. The other piece of that which is an advantage of not syndicating is that I have been able in many cases to fund many of the improvements out of cash flow. So with this particular property, we did lower the rents, but the occupancy has been brought way up. So we've just crossed a threshold where now this property is cash flowing again and all that cash flow is going to be directed right back into making improvements, probably, for the next few years at least. And so, that's a perfect example of well, if you're going to syndicate and you need to pay investors, you really can't be investing all of your cash flow back into a property.  So what do you need to do? You need to raise some money up front to pay for those improvements and not count on cash flow so that you can achieve your investor returns and start to get them their money back.  James: Yeah. That's the one thing different with syndicated deal versus owning your own deals. You don't have to raise so much money so you can take your cash flow and just put it back. With a syndication [21:27crosstalk/inaudible] and you may lose deals because you're competing with somebody who has a lot of money versus somebody who is syndicating.  Brian: That's right. James: It's very interesting. So in terms of, I'm going to your personal side, is there a proud moment in your life or not in your life, toward your real estate career, that you think, I would remember that moment throughout my life until the end; can you describe that moment?  Brian: Oh, wow, you know there's been so many moments, but not all good.  James: No, no, the proudest moment where you think you really made a big impact on something.  Brian: I never really expected this but some of the proudest moments that I've had has been since my book came out and I would have never guessed that that would lead to that but some of the feedback that I've gotten from readers that they've shared with me that it's changed their lives that they started into investing and have already built portfolios. And to see the direct link between the book and people, you know, really making improvements in their lives has been extremely rewarding. So I think one of the great things is that I really went into the idea of writing the book just because I wanted to share what I've learned, the mistakes I've made and to help other people, but I never really thought that it would sell very many copies or that people would have that kind of effect and the fact that it did. When I get a letter, a note from somebody, it's been extremely rewarding. So now I kind of remember that I think that's been a big impact.  James: Yeah. It's interesting. I mean, I get a lot of notes from my books as well and sometimes you don't really take it seriously because for us it's just common knowledge from what we have learned. But some notes do make us think, oh, I really really made an impact on someone. I mean, it's mind-blowing in how many lives can be changed with the things that you share in a book.  Brian: Right, right. Yeah. Absolutely.  James: Yeah. So the next second question is why do you do what you're doing? Brian: Well. You know and it's interesting. I mean actually, in the book I share at one point, this was a few years back, I had somebody come up to me and they said you know, how much is enough? Like you are so greedy, why do you keep going? And I just realized that this person doesn't understand, they missed the whole point that it's just rewarding to take a property that's not performing, that's in distress, that's maybe even a bad thing in a community and to turn it around and make it a better place for people to live. You help the tenants and you help the community and to do that and start to get involved. Like I do meetups now and I met new people and threw those in the book to help other investors, and so, you know, I look forward to going to work every day. I enjoy it. I enjoy the challenge of finding and executing on properties that aren't achieving up to their potential and making a better place for people to live and more profitable at the same time. So I just think it's fun. Like I enjoy what I do.  James: Yeah, it's like a discovery, you're trying to discover these from your paper to the real stuff. Especially when you are underwriting because you're assuming a lot of things and how does that whole assumption become a reality? You know, it's very interesting to see the output of that become [25:42inaudible] people's lives, which is just... Brian: Absolutely. James: So we really had a really good knowledge box from you, Brian. So can you tell our listeners and audience how to get hold of you?  Brian: Sure, you know, your listeners can find me on Facebook. You can find me on LinkedIn, you know, you can find the book on amazon.com or on the book website is crushingit.info and my company's website is Washingtonstreetproperties.com  And if anybody is interested in reaching out, I'd be glad to hear from them.  James: Awesome, Brian. Thank you for coming and joining us. I think that's it. Thank you.  Brian: Thanks, James, was an honor.

Learn about becoming an everyday hero, being a better parent, living every day as a miracle baby AND with Tourette's syndrome, and more!! Brian Schulman of Voice Your Vibe comes on the show and gets real as he describes to us the crazy things he went through growing up as he went through wild experiences - and emerged as a person who is always spinning things positive. Brian works to inspire people and his children every day! Show Highlights 02:20 - [Ari] How do you go about inspiring one person each day? 03:08 - [Brian] I wanted to give out the opposite of the negative that I had received by those around me. Don’t get me wrong. I mean I certainly had a ton of positivity around me but sometimes, we all know how one negativity can overshadow a thousand positives. 03:25 - [Brian] So I wanted to be a giver of good and positivity, and light, and strength, and encouragement. And I know life is 10 percent what happens to me and 90 percent how I react to it. 03:42 - [Brian] I know I've failed way more in life and in business than I've succeeded, that I've learned from every step, and I've gotten up every time. I've dusted myself off and I'd get going and that’s why I've succeeded no matter what the outcome is. 04:18 - [Brian] My ”why” is to inspire one person a day and that can be in so many different ways. If I can inspire one person to chase after their dreams and no one feel and believe that they can accomplish anything (continue to say more here…) 05:00 - [Brian] You know the reality is, life has and will, and continue to throw me mad curveballs and I will continue to get up to the plate and keep swinging. 12:27 - [Brian reading his daughter's essay] This story about to be told is about an extraordinary man now 42 years young, who accepted all the obstacles life had to throw at him. I know you may be thinking that everyone has different obstacles they just overcome throughout their lifetime so how is he different from you and I? 12:45 - [Brian reading his daughter's essay] What makes this particular man different from you and I is the tactic he used when faced with these obstacles. What makes him different from you and I is that he took these obstacles and used them to help make a difference and inspire others to never let life get in the way of their greatness and achievements. What makes us different from everyone else is not the obstacles life throws at us but what we do when faced with these obstacles. 13:14 - [Brian reading his daughter's essay] Will you choose to accept defeat? Or will you choose to persevere? 14:57 - [Brian reading his daughter's essay] No one knows what life has in store for them. All we can do is live until we are forced to face an obstacle and we must make a choice to either overcome or accept defeat. 15:13 [Brian reading his daughter's essay] One person can make a difference in the lives of others. But the experiences this boy has to face came a life lesson. with determination, perseverance, and support from others, anything can happen. 15:50 [Brian reading his daughter's essay] He helps lift peoples spirits and hopes in times of hopelessness and despair, He helps people turn their ideas and dreams into realities, he helps build people from the ground up and hopes that they too will one day share their stories with others, he makes the difference in this world each and every day which inspires others to make a difference as well. 16:13 [Brian reading his daughter's essay] Who may you ask is this man? Well, he is my father. Out of all the lives he's made a difference, I believe he has made the biggest difference in mine. He inspires me to never give up on what I believe in, He always told me to do what makes me happy. But most importantly to always live every day as if it were the last because we are never guaranteed a tomorrow. 16: 52 [Brian reading his daughter's essay] Be the change you wish to see in the world making a difference in the lives of others. 19:24 [Brian] "They're all here for me, they know who I am, I don't need it." 20: 47 [Brian] Tourettes, by the way, is more common on boys versus girls and usually between 16 and 18 years. 24:18 [Brian] My legacy are my kids, my legacy is every person that I have, the ability whose hearts I have devoted or touched in some way. 24:38 [Ari] If all were able to touch us, the people around us but not our own kids and our own family, aren't we may be doing something wrong? Shouldn't we be focused on family first? I don't mean the only family but if we're gonna be inspiring people, our kids come first. Why should we let somebody else be the inspiration for our kids? 25:14 [Brian] We could talk about this all day, I always wanted to be a daddy. It was no question in my mind. I love kids, I wanted to be mine, mom and dad form. Like she was so inspiring to me. 28:20 [Ari] The typical definition of success from most people is money, great job, doctor. All these things, the people just internally, without thinking about it and that's the pinnacle of success. 28:40 [Ari] The truth is if I could get to the end of my life, look back and be able to say that I'm a good dad. That would be successful. 29:00 [Brian] That's not that, at the end of the day when we're taking our last breath, that's not what matters. What matters is the impact we make in my opinion. The impact we make on people's lives. 29:32 [Brian] They're better human beings. If their hearts are bigger, they are kinder. 30:16 [Brian] "You can't turn the clock back." 32:32 [Ari] From most parents or at least for all good parents the choice is to never accept defeat. The choice is always what do I have to do to overcome or make a passes, it doesn't matter what it is, I'll make it work. 33:13 [Brian] When we become parents, it's not about us anymore, like literally it's like snap and everything changes for the good. 34:21 [Brian] We have genuine heroes around us every single day, people that take a selfless action and make a dramatic impact on somebody's life. It happens every single day, every single moment. 34:56 [Brian] I remember thinking to myself, I don't ever want anyone to feel the way I feel, I don't want anyone to ever be treated the way I've been treated. I don't want them to feel that way or feel like they are being treated that way when they're around me. 39:32 [Brian] So I just said: "well, I'll just tell my story." 41:40 [Brian] I'm inspiring people by sharing it and it's not that they have got to have gone through what I've gone through, we all go through trials and tribulations in our life. We all get beat down, it's about getting back up and I didn't think I had a voice for a story that matter, I just looked at it as life. 44:20 [Brian] This is the most important part for anyone "It's not about you, it's about sharing your experiences that can help at least one person out there" and if you think of it that way, it changes your mindset completely. 45:13 [Ari] Sometimes when we're so down when we've got so much stuff that's happening to us that are creating such havoc in our lives or such negativity or potential negativity or whatever it is and we're just all the way down there. Legitimately the one thing that helps us more than anything else is another person reaching down with their hand to lift us up. 45:40 [Brian] Yes, that's what it is about, it's about community, it's about people coming together, it's about knowing that we all go through different things in our lives and we can do that. 47:16 [Ari] Every single time you get up, and people don't realize this and this is part of the issue, and every time you get up, you're stronger. And every single time you stand up you're that much more able to withstand whatever else life throws at you in the future and whatever else it comes. "I had that moment 2 years ago when I had that really big issue but I can do it I can get passes and I know I can!" 47:41 [Brian] Great ways to remember that? Pull out your phone when you're on your worst moment that you feel you're having in your life and hit record and talk to yourself. About Brian Schulman Check out Brian Schulman's guest biography (https://www.waytogreatness.com/guest/brian-schulman/), or read what Julian Smit wrote about Brian: "If you don't know this fine man, you're not spending enough time on LinkedIn! From Miracle Baby to Forbes Featured Entrepreneur, Brian has gone from fighting for every breath as a miracle baby, born at only 1.5 pounds, to Tourette's syndrome as a pre-teen, to one of the most prolific and popular video creators on LinkedIn! He's the founder and CEO of #VoiceYourVibe, and is a co-host of #LinkedInLocal San Diego! Despite all he's been through he's one of the most positive people you'll ever meet and is The Godfather of LinkedIn Video. He's an inspiration to many and a joy to talk to!" -Julian Smit, Host of the BIYF Marketing Podcast (https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/biyf-marketing/id1372483245) Originally recorded 10/7/2019 Special Guest: Brian Schulman.

James:  Hi listeners and audience, this is James Kandasamy from Achieve Wealth Through Value-add Real Estate Investing Podcast. Today, we have Brian Hamrick. Brian owns 370 units which 2/3 of it is syndicated, the remaining is owned by him. He's from Grand Rapids, Michigan. He does multifamily, self-storage and also non-performing notes and Brian is also the past president of Rental Properties Owner Association.  Hey, Brian, welcome to the show.  Brian: Hey, James, great to be here. Thanks for having me.  James: I'm really happy to have you here. I mean, you have been podcasting for the past three years. You have a really good audience because I remember after showing up on your podcast, a lot of people did contact me. So I'm sure a lot of people love your podcast as well.  Brian: That's fantastic. I'm glad to hear that.  James: Yes. So can we go a bit more detailed into what is this Rental Properties Owners Association, how do they add value to syndicators or landlords or tenants? Can you describe a bit more on that? Brian: Sure, the Rental Property Owners Association, which I'm a past president of, I'm currently on the executive committee and I sit on a number of different committees, they are a landlord representation organization.  So we also work a lot with Real Estate Investors and provide all kinds of training for both landlords and Real Estate Investors. Every year, we have an annual conference where we have National Speakers come in and talk about all different types of investing asset classes and whatnot. And really I got involved with it because when I moved here to Grand Rapids, 15 years ago, I was looking for a professional organization that I could become part of that would help me network with other professionals in the industry. People who own rental properties and knew how to profit from it and also just an organization that would help teach best practices so I could learn the ropes how to do it and certainly through the Rental Property Owners Association and the people I've met there, I've learned a lot.  We provide a lot of training but probably what I consider most important of all is we have a legislative committee that works with lawmakers, both local and at the state level, to help push through bills that help rental property owners and also help prevent bills from becoming a reality that would hurt us; anything that has to do with like rent control or some of those hot button issues that as landlords and rental property owners would like to avoid.  James: Yeah, very interesting. So like New York and I think, Oregon now is rent control states, if I'm not mistaken, so they probably have similar Association like yours in that city, I guess. Brian: I would hope so. It sounds like they're fighting a losing battle as you and I both know as rental property owners, you know, I believe you invest out of state, out of your area, is that correct?  James: No. No, I'm from Austin. I invest everything in Austin and San Antonio. Brian: Okay. So would you even consider investing in a city or a state that has rent control?  James: No. Of course not.  Brian: Yeah. It's really detrimental to the market and I think it's going to cause a lot of problems. I used to live in Santa Monica, California where they had rent control and you can see the negative results of that. James: Oh, Santa Monica in California, did they have rent control in the past?  Brian: Yeah, a lot of the Los Angeles counties, you know, it's kind of county by county, city by city, area by area, but there is rent control in Los Angeles in certain areas and you can just see how rental property owners, who own buildings in rent control areas, have no incentive to put money back into them. They're not putting the capital expenditures back into their property to keep them in good shape because there's no incentive to do so. They can't raise rents beyond a certain amount each year and you know, so why would you invest $100,000 back into your building if you're not going to get that out in value? James: Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't make sense for a business. So you may not run it as a business, you may be just run it as cash flow, I don't know, it's like a cash flow investment. I guess you don't have to spend any capital on it.  Brian: I can see how if you've owned the property for a long time and you bought it at the right price at the right time, you could probably be doing well with cash flow. But in these markets where you see a lot of rent control, they're expensive markets. So I'm not really sure once rent control is instituted in these markets what's going to incentivize new investors to come in and bring fresh money into the market. James: Interesting interesting. So coming back to your portfolio, can you tell me in terms of your holdings, how much is multifamily, how much is self-storage? How many percents of each one of these and how much is non-performing notes?  Brian: Sure. Sure. So multi-family is my bread and butter. I've been doing that since 2008. I moved to Grand Rapids in 2005 and 2008 the bubble burst, you know, we entered the Great Recession, it was a buyers' market. I bought my first 12 unit, I was using my own money in the beginning, started using other people's money and then started syndicating.  We currently have about 370 units here in the Grand Rapids area, Grand Rapids, Michigan and that's multi-family residential. In 2018 we purchased a self-storage facility, it's about 28,000 square foot, we're currently adding another 15,000 square foot to it and that's been a fantastic investment, I really love self-storage. And then, as you mentioned, I host a podcast - The Rental Property Owner and Real Estate Investor Podcast - and one of my guests over two years ago was a gentleman by the name of Gene Chandler and he was investing in non-performing notes and I really liked his strategy so much that I ended up investing well over 300,000 dollars with them and the results have just been fantastic.  James: So, you now do multifamily and now you're doing two other asset class. So can you tell me what does multifamily did not offer that these two other asset class offers? Brian: Well, I like you, I'm investing in my own backyard for when it comes to multifamily. Even though I've bought and sold over 450 units, in 2015, I stopped buying multifamily altogether because the values had gone to a point where I could no longer justify syndication. I couldn't get the returns that I needed for my investors to be able to to pay the prices that people were asking. The last two deals I found - one was off-market, one was kind of in between market - and I can go into details on that but anything that I saw after that point just, I was so spoiled by the prices I was getting between 2008-2014, that I started looking for other asset classes.  And there were probably about 3 years where I just sat on the fence, waiting to see if the market would change or something else would come along. And at some point, one of the people who I met through the podcast, brought me a self-storage deal that he had found off-market. I looked at it, I like the numbers. His underwriting was very conservative, but the numbers were very compelling and we ended up buying that in 2018. And just in one year of basically bringing the rents up to market value and switching to a virtual online web-based management system, we were able to add over $700,000 in value to that property. So I like the simplicity of managing and owning self-storage more so than multifamily because in multifamily, you have tenants and plumbing issues... James: So it's very Property Management intensive, right? Brian:  It definitely is and the self-storage, it's not. When you have turn-over, you're basically sweeping out a metal shed, you know, so it's a lot easier to manage and own and operate self-storage, especially when you're in a good market and I think we bought in an excellent market. It's just north of Lansing, Michigan. And then with the non-performing notes, I found a strategic partner who handled a lot of the nuts and bolts of that and I was able to invest with him somewhat passively so I enjoyed that aspect of investing there and the returns we were getting were very good.  James: Interesting. Yeah, I mean, as I mentioned in my book, commercial asset classes go in cycles. I mean, I know I'm a multi-family guy and your bread and butter is multifamily but if you find the right operators in other asset classes, you can make a lot more money or equal amount of money as what you're making with multi-family. So, would you think so? Brian: Absolutely. Finding the right strategic partners in other asset classes that's one of the things I set my mind to when I realize I'm just not seeing the returns I want to see in multifamily and apartments in my area where I'm comfortable investing. Now, have you looked at other asset classes? James: I did look at a few asset class. I mean the asset class that I looked at is also like, you know, self-storage or mobile home parks but it's also in demand. I'm surprised to see here that you found something in 2018 because I thought self-storage is a hot asset class as well, I will risk going after that. Brian: Yeah, it was a lucky strike and we've been looking for similar opportunities. But yeah, we're not finding them. What we're doing instead is building ground-up construction in self-storage, finding locations where the demographics are right and the need for more square footage of self-storage space is there and then we go in and fill that need. James: Yeah, but I'm happy that you are looking at multifamily is not like the only asset class throughout the whole real estate cycle. I mean you felt like in 2015, things picked up and you really can't find the prices that you want and you have changed strategy which is how an investor should be. You always want to look at what's available out there, the deal flow because the economy is still doing very well. There's a lot of capital out there and it's just harder to find a great really-making-sense deal. I wouldn't say deals, making sense deals in multi-family, something that makes sense. It's just so hard to find out nowadays. Brian: Absolutely. As an investor, you have to stay nimble and flexible and be open to other opportunities. Now, I know a lot of people in our field, our asset class of multifamily and apartments will find strategic partners outside of their area like in Texas or Georgia or wherever and partner with strategic partners who are able to find better value and better yields in their Investments. But I've had some bad experiences early on with some single-families that I owned out of state so I've always been very hesitant since then to own rental property, residential rental property, out of state. James: So you like to have any property within your own backyard, but you like to diversify within asset classes. Some people have one asset class, but they go across the nation. Like some people like to buy multi-family across the nation, wherever make sense but you are doing it the other way around. Brian: Yeah. Since I've branched out into self-storage and non-performing notes, I'm comfortable switching up asset classes. James: Awesome. So on self-storage, are you the operator, are you the primary guy?  Brian: No, my strategic partner is. He's the one who found the deal off-market, he negotiated it. I basically came in and raised the money; we syndicated that and raise the funds to be able to acquire it. James: Got it. Very interesting. And on the performing notes, you have a strategic partner, I would say, right? Brian: Yeah, I have a strategic partner on that. He's the one who knows that world. He's been doing it for well over six years now and really knows how to negotiate with the lender who we're purchasing a non-performing note from. He works with the homeowners to try to keep them in the home and figure out if that's even possible and then knows who the title company is that he should work with to get the right due diligence done and he's got the different scenarios in his head of how we can profit off of these notes. If we keep the homeowner in the home, what are the strategies there for us to maximize our profit or if we have to go through the foreclosure process. How do we go about that and maximize our returns in those cases as well. James: Interesting. Interesting. So if you get a multi-family deal today, would you still do it? Brian: If I found a deal that made sense and my underwriting shows that I could get the returns to my investors that they're accustomed to, I'd do it in a second, absolutely.  James: Okay. Okay. So let's talk about the market and submarket selection. So why did you move from California to Grand Rapids, Michigan?  Everybody's heading to Texas and Florida from California.  Brian: I'm from Michigan, originally. James: Oh, you're from Michigan? Okay, that makes a lot of sense.  Brian: Yeah, my wife is from here as well. So we met in California but decided okay, if we get married, start a family we didn't want to do it in Los Angeles, it's just too busy there.  James: Makes sense. Yeah, I mean just based on data that 50% of the population move to Texas And I think there's a lot more but Texas and Florida is the favorite destination for people from California. That's why I was asking the question. And how do you select the submarket in Grand Rapids, Michigan? Like how do you select which submarket to really do the deal? Brian:  Well eyes because I live here, I am looking within a half hour to an hour of where I live. Grand Rapids is very strong, has very strong demographics. It's one of the few Midwest cities that really bounce back strong from the Great Recession. A lot of diversified manufacturing industry. Furniture, Amway is here, we've got a lot of different industries and employment based here. So when I look at submarkets, I'm looking more at the neighborhoods, what's the crime rate in that neighborhood? What's the income level in that? What kind of rents can we command and by the way, I'll buy B properties and C properties or you know, C minus properties that we can push into that C plus B minus range. But I will avoid the The D areas and I've seen a lot of opportunities in the D areas. And by D, I mean where you have a lot higher crime rate, where you have a lot more evictions and tenant turnover and problems.  So I'm just very careful about and I work with the property management company that has a good grasp of these areas. So when we look at a property, we can really get a sense of if we buy this, is there an upside value, can we improve it and get higher rents, get better residents in here or is it going to be bound by the neighborhood it's in, that where it is now is what just where it's going to be? James:  Got it. Got it. Interesting. What about underwriting? I mean, when you look at a deal like I mean when you are buying multifamily, right? So how would you select the deal? Let's say a hundred deals been sent to you, do you know how many percents of it you would reject? Brian: Right now 100%. I'm not even looking right now, but what I'll do is I'll do a quick rule of thumb. Okay, what's the net operating income? What's the cap rate that they're asking? Is there upside potential? And of course, if it's listed by a broker, they'll always tell you the market the rents are way under market. you can raise the rent. No problem. That's sometimes true, sometimes not true.  But this area is so strong that any seller right now knows that they can get top dollar and while there's a lot of Institutions and out-of-state investors and even International investors who are willing to pay top dollar, the yields that they are willing to accept are much lower than what I'm willing to pay, which is why I'm not even looking at the moment.  James: Very interesting. Now I see it's happening across the country. I thought it was only happening in Texas and Florida but looks like across the country, that's what's happening. It's just so hard to find deals that used to make sense to us long time ago, right? So it's crazy out there.  Brian: Yeah, and it could just be that I'm spoiled because I was buying during a period when I could buy it at eight nine ten caps. And now, when I see things at five six, six and a half caps, I don't even want to consider them. But had I bought it at those cap rates between 2015 and 2017, I would have made a lot of money. So maybe I'm just a little too stringent in my criteria right now.  James: Yeah. That could be it as well.  Brian: Are you buying right now? James: Well, I mean, well, I'm still buying if I find the right deal. It's just so hard to find the deal that makes sense for my criteria, and I'm sure that's the same thing as your criteria. I'm still buying if I find the right deal but I'm not underwriting a hundred deals, you know, in one month. You know, whatever deal comes to me, I usually know that within the quick look, I know whether it makes sense for me to underwrite or not. And sometimes brokers will call me if they know that a certain deal is something that I would do. That's the only deal that I look at.  Brian: What's your quick back of the napkin way of determining whether or not you want to invest in something? James: If it's an email blast, I probably wouldn't look at it.  Brian: Yeah. Yeah, you kind of eliminate the ones that go out to everybody.  James: Yeah, it's already got everybody on his shop date and coming on an email blast. You know, you have to go on a best and final and best and best and final and then this ultimate best and final offer, which is you're shooting in the dark, right? You're basically bidding against yourself. [20:45 inaudible] I'm not really in a desperate mode to buy deals that go through that kind of process. So when I look for value-add if there's a true value-add deal, I mean, minus the crime rate area, I definitely know the area that has high crime rate, I can check it out quickly Class B and C, but need to have true value-add that we can go and add value. I don't really look at the entry cap rate, but I look for the spread of the cap rate from the time I buy to in the next two years kind of thing without any rent increases.  Brian: I think part of part of my problem, one of the reasons that I've just been on the fence is because we bought a value-add property back in 2015. It was an older building, built in 1920 and it was such an exhaustive process to go in and add value to that property. I was over there like every day. James: It is very tiring to do those value-add deals. To do deep value-adds, I would say.   Brian: Deep, deep value-add. And so my bandwidth for more opportunities was just completely limited because I was so exhausted by working on this one particular project. Now, luckily, we got it to a point where we added tremendous value to it and we're very proud of the work we did but you have to weigh the opportunity cost when you do those value-adds because sometimes they're so intensive that some of the lower hanging fruits, you bypassed that. James: Correct. Yeah. I see some syndicators doing deals every month and they're not doing a deep value-add or they're just doing the lighter value-add. Maybe they're just doing a yield play. [22:30inaudible] they can buy every month. They can claim 5,000 units or 3,000 years versus deep value-add to be like 100 and 200 and 300. It's a really really deep value-add. You probably make a lot more money than the guy who owns 3,000 to 4,000 units, but it's a lot of work.  Brian: It's more than just asset managing. You kind of become a de facto developer. James: Developer, a huge project manager. Yes, so many things but the deep value-add gives you a sense of accomplishment. Brian: It does.  I'm very proud of the work we did on this particular property and more so than any of my other properties because I didn't have to put nearly as much work into them.  James: Yeah, and the deep value-add it becomes a case study, right? Because it truly shows your skills to turn around property.  And people who have done deep value-add it's going to be easier for them to do the lighter [23:30inaudible]   Brian: Yeah, yeah, that's an excellent point.  James: So that's very interesting. So can you name like 2 or 3 secret sauces to your success? Brian: The two or three secret sauces to my success. I'm sorry if you hear that printer going in the background there.  James: It's okay. No worries.  Brian: Hopefully that ends soon. Secret sauces to my success; I think doing the underwriting, running my numbers. I always like to say, I like to see my numbers in bullet time. To see all the Matrix, you know, everything slows down and you can see it coming at you. I want to know what are the real expense is going to be after we've acquired the property. One particular mistake that I see a lot of investors making is they assume that the property tax is going to be the same as what the previous owner was paying and that's just not the case. So right there that's one of the main factors that I look at right away, is what is the property tax going to become once I buy this property and that eliminates 50% of the deals that I would even consider. So number one secret sauce is just really understanding the numbers. Not just where they are today, but where they will be once we acquire the property. Number two is having the right team. I am all about partnering with strategic partners who add value because they understand inside and out the asset class that you're investing in. The reason I was able to expand my multifamily portfolio was that I partnered with someone who owned his own property management company and managed the type of properties that I wanted to acquire. That without his assistance and without his team that really knew how to go in and do the due diligence and help me assess upfront, what are the capital expense costs going to be? What are the true costs going to be when we acquire this property? Without that, I would have made a lot of mistakes. The same with self-storage. I partnered with someone who even though he's young and new, somewhat new to the business, he had really studied it, talked to a lot of professionals, been mentored by people and really understood inside and out how we could add value to that self-storage facility. And everything that he put in his pro forma ended up becoming a reality. With my non-performing note partner, I mean he knows that world inside and out. So when we acquire a note, the first 12 that I bought with him, we only had one that we lost money on and that was about $1,700.  James: Out of how many notes?  Brian: We bought 12 notes to start with because I like to test before I bring other investors in so I bought 12 notes with my partner, I JV with him. Five of the notes our average return was over 80%.  James: Wow. What timeline? Brian: A year and a half.  Well, actually, each note is kind of on its own timeline. So I'll tell you that of the twelve notes that he and I purchased together, five of them are closed and paid off like we've made our profit. Our average return on investment, before we split 50/50, our average return was 81% and that included the one note that we lost $1,700 on. Some of the returns that we're getting are phenomenal. Five of the notes are re-performing, which means that we were able to keep the homeowners in their homes, which is fantastic. That's our number one goal. Our average return on those notes as we collect the monthly income is 30%. And then two of them are in some form of foreclosure. In fact, we're about to sell one. We just listed it today actually, so we should make a decent return on that. We always try to work with the homeowner and keep them in the home. Half the time we're able to do that, half the time it just doesn't work out. But you asked me the timeline so, of those five notes that we closed, our average return was 81%, the average number of days that we were in each of those notes was 163 days so that took less than half a year.   James: I mean, those are good great numbers. I mean, I mentioned in my book, find the right operator in that asset class and partner with them or invest with them for passive investors. So as I said in every asset class, there's always good operators. So the numbers you're telling me in non-performing notes in self-storage are huge, right? I mean, I know multifamily you can make money if the market went up and you have a really good operator that can handle that. On average, not everybody is making what you just told me right now on self-storage. So why is multifamily more popular than other asset classes?   Brian: There are more people teaching it.  James: That's absolutely my point. Brian: Yeah, I mean like there are some excellent instructors out there in multifamily and you and I are both the part of a group with one of them. I mean great top-notch training material. Okay. Yeah, there's just fewer people out there. Whereas you have between 10 to 20 people out there teaching multifamily, you could count on one hand the number of people teaching self-storage and it's even less teaching the non-performing note.  James: I understand. Yeah, it is it is true. There's a lot more people teaching multifamily, a lot more boot camps, a lot more 2 days weekend seminars on multifamily compared to self-storage or non-performing notes. And I think multi-family is also very simple to understand, it's a house. Not many people understand what is non-performing notes.  Brian: Yeah, there's all that educational like just understanding and wrapping your head around the concept. I got into multifamily because I understood the economy of scale and I understood people have to have a place to live. So if you can get them to pay their rent and that rent pays all your expenses plus the mortgage, well, you can make a lot of money that way. And then once I understood the next level of value, which is the income valuation method, how commercial multifamily is valued based on the income method and you can increase your returns exponentially if you understand that. The relationship between cap rate and your net operating income and value that was very compelling to me. And I think that still is very compelling when it comes to investing in commercial real estate whether it be multifamily or self-storage. I think non-performing notes, there's a lot more perceived risk in that because it's not valued based on any  - it's hard to understand how that's valued because there are so many different scenarios in which you can profit from non-performing notes. That you can't just say well we value it this way and if you buy this note, this is what you're going to make, it's kind of a crapshoot. But if you do it right and you partner with someone who knows how to avoid the dogs, you can actually make a lot of money doing it.  James: So what is the most valuable value-add in non-performing notes? Brian: You mean an example of one of our...? James: No, not an example. I'm talking about what is the one thing that if you do the most of the time or the frequency of things that you do in non-performing notes that you get the most value out of? Brian: Well, yeah, it differs note by note. I'll give you two examples. One is a property that was pretty much a teardown property that we bought the note on in Middlebury, Indiana. We paid $5,000 for this note and I asked my partner, I mean it's $5,000, this property is a teardown. How are we going to make money on this? And he said, well, we're not buying this for this property for the house that's on it. We're buying it for the land because it's right next door to a farm and this farm is owned by this Amish family. So he sent a realtor over to the Amish family and they ended up paying $35,000 for that note. So after closing costs and paying the realtor and getting our initial $5,000 investment back, our profit was over $24,000 that represented a 245% return and we did that in less than two months. James: Yeah, but you need to identify that opportunity. I mean, it's not like you can go and buy any deals right now. Okay, very interesting. Brian: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Another quick example of how you can profit on notes and I don't want it to lead you to believe that your best profit is always going to be a few foreclose or take possession of the property because you can still make a lot of money if you can work with the homeowners. We bought a note on a property in northern Michigan, probably about 9 or 10 months ago now. And I believe the numbers were in the line of we paid $20,000 for this note, got the homeowners re-performing, the unpaid balance on this note is $41,000. Once we have them season for 12 months, meaning that they're paying on time for 12 months - we've been working with them with a mortgage loan originator, where they can go and get new financing, permanent financing of FHA or Fannie Mae type loan in place with much better interest rate much better payments. Well, when they go do that, they're going to pay off that unpaid balance. So our $19,000 investment, now that I'm thinking about it was $19,000, our $19,000 investment, we're going to get paid that $41,000 of the unpaid balance on their note, plus the money that they've been paying each year. So our return on that is going to be 100%, it's actually over a hundred percent.   James: Across how many years?  Brian: We'll be out of that in under 15 months. James: Okay, interesting. Brian: Because they're going to refinance and when they refinance, we get paid that unpaid balance. James: Got it. Got it. What about on the multifamily properties that you own before 2015? What do you think is the most valuable value-add that you really like?  Brian: Well, they're all great because just anything I bought between 2008 and 2012, I've achieved an infinite return on those.  James: Okay. So refied it by and you kept it? Brian: Yeah. Yeah, we've refinanced, pulled our initial investment out. We have no money in the properties and we're collecting cash flow every month. So you can't calculate a return on that. Probably one of the best examples is a 37 unit that we purchased. We bought it at a short sale in 2009, was about 600,000 is what we paid for it. We put a $200,000 into it right away to replace roofs, windows. It was a hodgepodge of heating systems. There's electric baseboard heat and hot water boiler heat and then gas forced-air furnace heat. It just depended on which unit you were looking at. So we replaced a lot of the mechanicals, made it as much of a new property as we could, as far as just the mechanicals and the roof and the windows. And we refinanced it once it had over 1.1 million dollar value, pulled all of our initial investment out plus some extra cash flow and then we just refinanced it again, put a tenure fixed loan on it through the Freddie Mac. small apartment loan. So we got great terms on it, 30-year amortization. At that point, it valued over two million dollars. So we've added a lot of value to it and the compression of cap rates didn't hurt either.  James: Yeah. Yeah. Those are the awesome deals, the deep value-adds. That's where you can go and refi and make it infinite written because you pulled out all your cost basis. Brian: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's the goal to achieve infinite return. Whenever we can do that, that's what we do.  James: Absolutely. Aren't you worried about the state of the market right now in real estate in general?  Brian: You know, gosh, I was more worried about it two years ago than I am now probably. James: What has changed? Brian: Probably because two years ago, I was thinking, oh, it's going to turn any minute now and then it only got better and better. You and I both know Neil Bala and we talked to him at the last event we were at together and he made a very good case for the continuation of this market. And it basically rests on the fact that the United States, it's one of the few, if not the only places in the world where you can go to get real yield on your investment. We're seeing a lot of international money coming into the United States because in their countries, they're seeing negative yield or 0 yield. Here even if you can still get three or four percent yield on your investment, that's a lot of money. It's bringing a lot of money into this country and that's going to prop up our values for quite a long time. On top of that, I've always fought or believe that interest rates were going to rise and I've been believing that since 2000 and they keep going down. And even now, as we're speaking, they're talking about lowering the rate again by the end of the year. So that interest rate risk, I know we're playing with fire here and eventually, we're going to have to pay the piper but our government seems to keep coming up with ways to prolong this growth and the increase in prices. So am I worried? Not in the short term. No. No. The Economists I listen to are saying, oh, it's going to be a roaring 20s for us. Things are really going to hit the fan and. 2027, 2028, 29. James: Interesting. Yeah, because I think I don't know, maybe my thoughts are similar to yours somehow the Fed has figured out how to do quantitative easing and quantitative tightening. Somehow they're able to contract the economy and bring it down. So they could have found some new mechanism to keep the economy going even though our thought process always has been real estate goes in cycles. But at some point, you will hit an affordability issue, it can't [40:13unintelligible]  go up all the time, right?  Brian: Yes.  James: The prices can go up because the interest rate is coming down because now you can get more cash flow. But at the same time, you can't keep on increasing rent because our wages are not going up so much. I mean, I'm not an economist but at some point, you will hit some roadblock, but I'm not sure where is it and how is going to come.  Brian: Yeah, well, we're seeing a plateauing I think right now in just the rents that we're able to charge, the prices that people are willing to pay but it's still a very strong market. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not going out there and just buying stuff like crazy because I am very conservative and like I said if I can't get the returns that I need to bring investors into my deals, I'm just not even looking at it. I don't anticipate that the market is going to have a huge correction, there might be a bump, I think if you're in a good market, like Grand Rapids, that bump won't be nearly as severe as some other places.  I'm keeping my eye on the market but at the same time, investing conservatively in asset classes that I think will be able to withstand the next correction.  James: Awesome. So let's go back to a personal side of things, right? So is there a proud moment throughout your career in real estate that you will remember for your whole life, one proud moment? Brian: One for a moment to put on my tombstone. James: Yeah, absolutely. That you really think that hard, I'm really proud I did that.  Brian: Yeah. So a couple of answers. I mean any time we're able to go in and improve a property and improving neighborhoods, that always makes me proud, you know, that we're adding value to a neighborhood and community. The older building that I told you about here in Grand Rapids, it was built in 1920. When we bought that it was very tired, kind of poorly managed, it was losing money. We were able to turn that around so I'm very proud of that. I'm very proud of the fact that we also fought very hard and work very closely with the city to be able to put a restaurant in that building. So the fact that when we bought it it was 96 apartment units and about 6,000 square foot of vacant commercial space. Now we had to work with the city to get it rezoned because it had been vacant for so long, it had to be reverted to being zoned residential. So we spent over a year trying to get it rezoned so we could add commercial in there, but we filled up all 6,000 square foot including a restaurant and that took about two or three years to do.  So when I think about what I'm proud of I think I'm definitely proud of that.  James: Awesome. That there is hard work  because you're turning the zoning from residential to mixed use.  Brian: Yeah, mixed-use residential commercial, just dealing with parking, number of parking spots and green space and tree canopies. I mean, it was a massive undertaking.  James: Yeah. It's very interesting that kind of work. I did one that was borderline and we merged it with an apartment and we did so many things. It was a very unique value-add that we recently refinance.  Brian: What was it, a lot of work for you? James: It was a lot of work because you have to go through, you know, buying the deal - you had to buy two deals at the same time. One is the apartment and one is the land and then we have to go to the city to merge these two plots. Then you had to rezone it, then you had to - I mean replot it, rezone it And then after you do a tree survey, you have to do so many different surveys have to do to get that. It's not normal in a residential, you know, where you buy today and increase rent, reduce expense kind of deal. But it's very interesting and people got 80% of our money within 15 months, which is huge, just by doing this creatively.  Brian: That's fantastic. Yeah. Yeah, you talk about its zoning and tree, you know.  James: Yeah, zoning and tree and all those. Brian: So it's a whole new world and it definitely is costly and time-consuming because you have to have experts on your team. You got to bring experts like architects.  James: Yeah, we brought in architects, engineers.  Brian: Yeah, engineers who even understand what it is that the city is asking for because if you were trying to do that yourself, you just would be a mess. James: Yeah. I mean the good thing about what you said about what I'm proud of this kind of process and 99% of the syndicators don't have that kind of experience. Brian: Yeah. I didn't have that kind of experience but now I do.  James: Most of the time, you just buy buildings and, you know, look at increasing income and reducing expenses and after that, at some point you sell but you don't do different contracts buying land and doing kind of things. So another question for you, Brian, why do you do what you do?  Brian: I love it. I love what I do. I feel very entrepreneurial about it because I've been an employee up until about five or six years ago. Whatever it was I was doing, whatever job, I always embraced it and did the best I could. But what I love about being an entrepreneur, being a full-time real estate investor, now syndicator/asset manager is that it's all very self-motivated. I'm the one who decides what needs to happen, what I need to pay attention to on a day-by-day basis. I don't have a boss or anyone else telling me, 'Hey, Brian, go do this' when I'm like, 'no, I want to go do this instead.' I get to call the shots. So that's what I love about it. I get to call the shots, I get to take time off if I need to take time off and I get to kind of fill my day with activities that I want to be doing. James: Awesome. Hey Brian, you want to tell our listeners and audience how to get hold of you?  Brian: Sure, James. First of all, you can go to my website, which is higinvestor.com. That's HIG is Hamrick Investment Group. You can also listen to my podcast and James you've been a guest on there so you can definitely listen to me interview James. It's the Rental Property Owner and Real Estate Investor Podcast and it's sponsored by the RPOA, which we begin this conversation talking about. And if you want to get in touch with me, you can also email me Brian@higinvestor.com.   James: Awesome, Brian. Thanks for coming in and adding value to my listeners and audience and to myself as well in the kind of things from our discussion here. I think that's it. Thank you very much.  Brian: All right. Thanks, James. It's been a pleasure. It's a lot of fun. James: Lot of fun, thank you.  

How can we make real changes within the practice of law to lessen the impact of stress on individuals in this profession? In this episode of the ALPS In Brief Podcast, Chris Newbold checks in with Dallas attorney and advocate for wellbeing, Brian Cuban, to discuss the state of lawyer wellbeing now, the lifesaving impact one lawyer can have upon another, and our ethical responsibility to step up for one another.  CHRIS NEWBOLD:             Good afternoon. This is Chris Newbold, guest hosting today for the ALPS In Brief Podcast. And I'm here in our offices in Missoula, Montana with attorney and advocate for wellbeing, Brian Cuban, who's in here from the Dallas area. I just spoke at our ALPS bar leaders retreat, and we thought this would be a great opportunity for us to have ... We have a similar passion in terms of seeing our profession improve on the wellbeing side, and so I thought this would be a great opportunity for us to just kind of have a conversation about where the profession's at. Where do we need to go? And Brian, you're obviously out on the speakers' network, kind of talking about this particular issue, your personal experience, and so forth. I think I'd like to start with just you kind of putting into your own frame of reference. What is the state of the profession right now when it comes to attorney wellbeing? BRIAN CUBAN:                  It's a state that is a lot better than it was a few years ago. We have much more awareness. We have many more engaged professionals from the bottom up, the lawyers, the bar professionals, the local bar professionals, the state bar professionals. And we have awareness in big law. We have awareness within the boutique and the solo practitioner. There are areas that we can certainly do better, and we can certainly be more impactful, but we are definitely light years ahead of we were just three years ago. CHRIS:                                   And what do you think has driven that improvement in such a short period of time? BRIAN:                                  I think you have to give a lot of the credit to the ABA and the Betty Ford Hazelden Report, and that would also be Patrick Krill, who authored that report, in bringing the issue to the forefront with the staggering statistics, because I think that was a catalyst in really changing the conversation. Whatever people think of the ABA, you have different opinions, but you can't deny that that report was a seminal moment. CHRIS:                                   And why do you think that the issue right now is capturing a lot of attention in the legal community in legal circles? BRIAN:                                  Well, because of that report and because of the cumulative awareness, now we are looking around us and actually noticing what's going on. We may have been aware of what's going on, we may have seen what's going on. When someone dies by suicide, we are aware of it and we grieve it. But we are now much better in taking a look at that, and deciding where things could've been done differently. And three years ago, four years ago, it was more about just grieving and handing out, in the issue of suicide, handing out the 1-800 hotlines. Now we are moving beyond that, and really look at how we can make systemic changes to at least lessen the odds of those things occurring. CHRIS:                                   You talk a lot about kind of the impact that one lawyer can have on another lawyer. Right? And the responsibility that we have to not be kind of casual observers in this. Talk about that a little bit more as it relates to how we looked at, engineer a culture shift in the profession, and how every lawyer can make a difference one by one. BRIAN:                                  Sure. I talk a lot about not minding your own business. We have to create a culture where we are comfortable, or even if we're not comfortable. Let me step back from that because that's not comfortable. It's okay to be uncomfortable not minding your own business. That's a human emotion. But we have to get comfortable understanding that for what it is and taking that step anyways. When we see someone struggling, when we think we might be able to, or we are wondering, you just don't know. Is there a drinking problem? Is there a mental health struggle? Maybe the person's just having a bad day. To be able to not mind our own business for one moment, step outside of our struggles, step outside of our busy day, our billing, the things we have going on, and say, "How are you doing? Are you doing okay? Do you know that if you're not, you can come to me, and we can talk?" That doesn't require anything but empathy. And every lawyer, every person has that ability. CHRIS:                                   Is that a tough conversation for an associate to have with a partner? BRIAN:                                  Absolutely. And we have to follow protocols. Law firms need to establish protocols for when people are struggling. That is not realistic to expect an associate to confront a partner. But big law all have EAPs, so there's that. We all have lawyers assistance programs. Do you know as an associate, you can call lawyers assistance program, and you can let someone know what's going on? And they're not going to out you. I know that is a tough pill to swallow, and I know you don't believe that. But you can make that call. You do not have to identify yourself in any lawyers assistance program in this country, and you can say, "I'm in this firm, and I think this guy is struggling." And they will take it from there, so you can do that. BRIAN:                                  Within big law, we can talk about big law and then move on to something. Go down, go down. Within big law, it's important to establish protocols that are nonjudgmental, where everyone has a path. Everyone in the firm has a nonjudgmental path, a path that they feel safe voicing their concern if they see someone they think is struggling. So I can't tell them what that path is, but there should be multiple paths based on where someone is in the chain, right down to the clerk. CHRIS:                                   Talk about your opinions on ... There's an increasing body of work out there that says that the economics of wellbeing are conducive to a stronger bottom line. Right? And as we think about talent acquisition, talent retention, I know you work a lot in kind of big law firms. Right? BRIAN:                                  Mm-hmm (affirmative). CHRIS:                                   I think there's a really interesting play on the horizon for those who lead our profession from a big law perspective to be thinking about a commitment to this issue that could translate economically for the firm. Talk about that. BRIAN:                                  Absolutely. And I think, I doubt there are any managing partners, senior partners, firm CEOs are the real big ones that are not aware of that issue. It is the messaging is consistent just in general in society about the impact of addiction and mental health issues on the workplace and the economic cost. So the challenge becomes: How do we translate that into risk management? And I think they are starting to do that. That is not what I do. I'm a storyteller, I'm not a risk manager. But I think we are starting to see an industry, and people who do that, to go to a firm and say, "This is how we translate this into risk management to increase value to you," save you money. That saves the client money because on the most basic level, and we talked about the Peter Principle of Recovery. Right? How your level of competence keeps decreasing, and you keep trying to adjust your mindset to stay within that, you tell yourself you're at a high level when you're struggling. BRIAN:                                  That can be, in a general sense, stealing money from a client because you were not effectively representing the client. That is affecting the firm's bottom line, and that is the most basic level. When a lawyer is struggling, and not functioning at the non-struggling level, he may not even, or she may not even understand what that level is because they've been in the middle of it, lacking self-awareness for so long. That is affecting the firm's bottom line. That can affect client retention because there are lawyers out there who are not struggling. Everyone's trying to get the business. Right? So you have to maximize the ... You have to minimize the risk by putting lawyers in a position to succeed and to hit the top level of competence and move beyond that if possible. Keep raising that level. And it's hard to do that when someone's struggling with addiction, problem drinking, depression. BRIAN:                                  And I see lawyers all the time that talk about, well, I'm struggling with depression, but I was killing it, doing this. And I can't judge that. I don't know their situation. But I can say anecdotally, and what I see in the data, that I don't see how a person can look at the big picture, step back, and say, "I was going through all that and giving a dollar for a dollar." So I think all firms are aware of that, and I think that is achieved through a risk management model. CHRIS:                                   Again, it's going to be interesting too as big law tries to recruit talent out of the law schools, how much top talented students are actually looking for a wellness play in terms of the life, work balance that I think, generationally, I think is becoming more common. BRIAN:                                  That's a good question. I forget what the study was. Was it Am Law? Did the Am Law survey just come out? CHRIS:                                   Mm-hmm (affirmative). BRIAN:                                  And I couldn't find it. I think it may have been subsumed in one of the questions. But I reached out to Patrick Krill, who does a lot of the risk management stuff, and who authored the ABA Betty Ford Study, and asked him if he knew if we are surveying firms on wellbeing, if that is part of the survey. And I don't know that he had. I'll have to look and see if he responded, or he had an answer. But I think that may be not so much as a conscious play, but as a lifestyle play. It's just part of an overall lifestyle. Looking at the overall lifestyle, can we say that someone's going to say, "What's their drinking culture? I'm not going there"? There's no way to know that. But in the overall lifestyle play, I think lifestyle and wellness will become major factors, as Millennials and Generation Z, who have different priorities on what they want their life to look at as lawyers and as human beings. CHRIS:                                   Yeah. Talk more about, it's an interesting time in our profession given the fact that we have four separate generations all operating at the same time. Right? BRIAN:                                  Mm-hmm (affirmative). CHRIS:                                   But there are also studies out there, particularly those that have been done within the law schools, that say some of these behaviors and substance abuse and so forth are starting earlier, and are becoming more prevalent for those who have been in practice, particularly in private practice, for less than 10 years. As you think about that dynamic, and Millennials and so forth, that's soon going to be the largest chunk of lawyers in the profession. And as you think about the generational aspects of wellbeing, what's your take on that? BRIAN:                                  I think Millennials definitely have a different vision of what wellness looks like than ... I'm a baby boomer. The baby boomers, I come from, my lawyers' culture was a drinking culture. And I think when we look at things like the Sober Curious Movement, and what the Sober Curious Movement is, is not looking at drinking in terms of whether someone is a problem drinker, is an alcoholic, but what it looks like as a lifestyle, and as part of a healthy lifestyle, and whether you want it to be part of the healthy lifestyle without being judged on whether you're abstinent or not abstinent, and what that means to you, whether you're an alcoholic or you're not an alcoholic. I think Millennials and Generation Z are going to look at this differently in terms of just, I want to do the things that make me feel good, and that may not involve drinking. And I don't want to be judged for that. I don't want to have to explain myself. BRIAN:                                  And I think that is going to be a much easier transition and a much easier conversation than it is for my generation because it's beginning. It is beginning. The Sober Curious Movement is out there. We have bars within New York. There aren't any in Dallas and Austin. And you see a lot of the progressive towns, where you have bars, they just serve mocktails. And they revolve the fun around other things besides getting drunk. You go out and you're drinking fake pina coladas without alcohol. And they revolve everything around those, around the mocktails. The mocktail generation, they may be that. CHRIS:                                   That's an interesting one. If you had to assess right now, wellbeing in the legal profession, one being it's at an all-time low, 10 being, I think lawyers are both healthy, happy, engaged, where you put that on the spectrum? BRIAN:                                  I would put we're at a three or four, three or four. And that's great, and that's great. CHRIS:                                   A lot of room for improvement. BRIAN:                                  A lot of room for improvement. Four is opportunity. Right? CHRIS:                                   Yep. BRIAN:                                  Four is opportunity. Yes. And one of the biggest challenges I think we have, and if you look at big law, we with the ABA, and this isn't a criticism of the ABA at all. I think with the Wellness Task Force and everything, they have laid out the groundwork for all levels to participate, all stakeholders, solo, medium, boutique, the bar associations, all the way up to big law, corporate. I think they are laying out that groundwork. But I think when we get further down into the stakeholders, the solo practitioner, the small firm, we have a lot more work to do. And I think in that chunk is where we have the most improvement to do in our messaging, and the most opportunity because we have other challenges when we get down there. BRIAN:                                  If you work at big law, you have health insurance. And I knew big law lawyers who have health insurance, and still can't find a reasonable psychiatrist or therapist. They've complained to me about it. We have this health insurance crisis on so many different levels. And big law within the spectrum, you have privilege. You have health insurance privilege because you're going to have it. And you're going to have the EAP, and you're going to have this, and you're going to have that. BRIAN:                                  I don't know what the stats are, but I know anecdotally that a lot of the solos cannot afford health insurance. So when you can't afford health insurance, what are your options? You're going to 12 step. You are going to county. A lawyer don't want to go to county and get free treatment, that's very shameful. Right? If you even have that option as a reasonable option in your city. A lot of cities have terrible county free health services. And so we have that stigma of a solo practitioner and the medium, I don't have health insurance. I'm a lawyer, I'm not taking advantage of free. I can't. So they don't tell anyone. It's shameful. So how do we solve that? CHRIS:                                   Obviously, in our book of business with ALPS, we specialize in small firms and solo practitioners. And 65% of the policies that we issue are to solos. And they're generally a higher malpractice risk because they don't have a support network around them. BRIAN:                                  Absolutely. CHRIS:                                   You can't stop into Brian's office and say, "Hey. Let's have a conversation about this particular case." You have to build networks. You have to build connections in very different ways, which makes it I think, much more challenging. BRIAN:                                  And it does. And it's a challenge where you're struggling. It's going to be dependent on the particular situation. But you're making what would be decent money, you have a family. You can barely, after everything, then you care barely support your family. And you're more able to speak to this. You have a deductible that you can't meet anyways, even though you have health insurance. That's as almost as being uninsured. So we have all of those issues, and I don't know what the solution is to that. But that is one of the things that is a huge barrier to wellness within the profession, health insurance and the ability to pay for getting well, the ability to find people to get us well. We are becoming a cash only society in terms of wellness. BRIAN:                                  I consider myself very lucky because I have a psychiatrist, I've been seeing for 15 years, and he treats. I have one of the few treating psychiatrists out there with his therapy. But we also have the ghost networks that you may be familiar with. And I'm getting off on tangents, where you can't, even if you have health insurance, you can't find a treatment provider because they don't take insurance. CHRIS:                                   Where do we go? A lot of good activity now happening. You've got Pledge. You've got some state task forces going. Got a lot of discussion. Societally, we're seeing more vulnerability to talk about these issues, whether it's Hollywood stars, or sports stars, there's just more discussion, which I think is healthy. If we're a three or four right now, how do we get to a six or seven? How do we start to move the needle? Culture shifts in any society- BRIAN:                                  It's one person at a time. It's one person at a time. If you're talking, there's no magic pill to culture shift. We talked about this. It is one person at a time. There's one bar association at a time. There's one law firm at a time. And you hope, you hope, that the Malcolm Gladwell theories kick in, and you hit a tipping point. But it is much more, again, it is much more on different levels societal. If I can't afford treatment, what's the difference what the path is if I can't get there? Why should I tell anyone if I can't afford to get there? In Texas, we have a fund where if you go to them, a lawyer can get treatment. I believe it's an endowed fund privately. And maybe someone will correct me on this when they listen to it. But we have to find different ways to ... It's more than just laying the path. People have to be able to walk on it. BRIAN:                                  And if you can't afford to get the help, other than 12 step, and 12 step is great, Smart Recovery's great, Refuge Recovery is great, but they're all mutual aid. Mutual aid is not treatment. Mutual aid is maintaining connection, which is important. If you can't afford the treatment, and you have no way through that path, that's a huge problem that goes beyond the legal profession. When we talk about the legal profession, what we can do, I think we have to have a more societal view of that. How do we correct that? CHRIS:                                   Yeah. There's an interconnectedness to a lot of different- BRIAN:                                  You can't sever this. You can't sever out health insurance accessibility from all the other issues within the profession because most of the profession is solo and small. CHRIS:                                   And even on a tangent, one of the reasons I got involved in the wellbeing movement was I feel like there is a gap in expectations for what people think practicing law will be like, and ultimately what they find that it's going to be like, whether that happens in law school, or whether that happens because of law school debt. That again, to be a good lawyer, one has to be a healthy lawyer. And more and more, people are finding themselves boxed into a spot where they're actually doing something that they're not finding professional satisfaction in, which is then causing ... It can cause other things to kind of spin off from there. BRIAN:                                  I agree. I agree. Every lawyer is a story. Every lawyer is more than just the person under stress. Every lawyer brings their entire history of trauma, of however they grew up, family. CHRIS:                                   Family. BRIAN:                                  They bring it all through the door of that firm. They bring it all to the courthouse. So whatever that stress is may not just be the product of what's going on at that moment, the case, fulfilled expectations, unfulfilled expectations. It may be the product of a life story that has shaped someone that made them more susceptible to those issues. Does that make sense? CHRIS:                                   It does. BRIAN:                                  So we have to address the story and not just the moment that the lawyer is in. CHRIS:                                   Yeah. Anything else that you want to kind of relay as we talk to our policy holders and other interested listeners about just kind of the current state of attorney wellbeing? BRIAN:                                  If we want to change the paradigm of attorney wellbeing, for me personally, I think the most powerful tool is continue to encourage people to tell their stories. Keep telling the stories. Everyone identifies with aspects of other people's lives. There's going to be something to identify with. The connections, stories bring connection. Keep bringing people in to tell stories. Just encourage that. And I think through the power of storytelling, we will start to see more and more people tell their stories, and then they'll tell their stories. And I think that is how. CHRIS:                                   That reduces stigma. That reduces vulnerability. BRIAN:                                  That's right. I think as we reduce stigma, we will better empower lawyers to seek recovery. CHRIS:                                   Yeah. Brian, thank you. BRIAN:                                  Thank you. CHRIS:                                   We appreciate your time, and we appreciate your perspectives. And obviously, you're doing wonderful work in the storytelling side of the ledger because it's important that through the experiences of you and telling your personal story that it makes a difference. BRIAN:                                  I think law firms need to realize, and I think big firms are starting to do this, is creating a wellness program has different levels. There's storytelling. There is risk management. There is- CHRIS:                                   Scientific studies. BRIAN:                                  Yes. And there is the pure wellness aspect. How do we reduce stress? How do we become happier? What can we do to allow our lawyers, within the framework of our representation of clients, to feel better about themselves and what they do? Law firms are in a business. This is a business, and they are not yogis. We have to be realistic. Law firms are there to represent clients at the highest level possible. What holes do we need to fill to make that happen? Because that is what we do. We represent clients. And so we have to fill all these different gaps, the storytelling gap, the risk management gap, the wellness gap. CHRIS:                                   Got it. Again, thank you so much. And I hope you enjoyed listening to this podcast. As you know, ALPS is committed to being a leader in the wellbeing issues of the day affecting the legal profession. We hope you enjoyed this podcast. If you have any other ideas for topics on the wellbeing, please let us know. Thank you.   Brian Cuban, the younger brother of Dallas Mavericks owner and entrepreneur Mark Cuban, is a Dallas based attorney, author and addiction recovery advocate. He is graduate of Penn State University and The University of Pittsburgh School of Law. Brian has been in long term recovery from alcohol, cocaine and bulimia since April of 2007. His first book, Shattered Image: My Triumph Over Body Dysmorphic Disorder,” chronicles his first-hand experiences living with, and recovering from, twenty-seven years of eating disorders, and Body Dysmorphic Disorder (BDD). Brian's most recent, best-selling book, The Addicted Lawyer, Tales of The Bar, Booze, Blow, & Redemption is an un-flinching look back at how addiction and other mental health issues destroyed his career as a once successful lawyer and how he and others in the profession redefined their lives in recovery and found redemption. Brian has spoken at colleges, universities, conferences, non-profit and legal events across the United States and in Canada. Brian has appeared on prestigious talks shows such as the Katie Couric Show as well as numerous media outlets around the country. He also writes extensively on these subjects. His columns have appeared and he has been quoted on these topics on CNN.com, Foxnews.com, The Huffington Post, Above The Law, The New York Times, and in online and print newspapers around the world. Learn more at www.briancuban.com.

In today's episode, we help Brian figure out if his business idea will make money online. FULL TRANSCRIPT Jocelyn: Hey y'all, on today's podcast we help Brian figure out if his business idea will make money online. Shane: Welcome to the Flipped Lifestyle Podcast where life always comes before work. We're your hosts, Shane and Jocelyn Sams. We're a real family that figured out how to make our entire living online. Now we help other families do the same. Are you ready to flip your life? All right, let's get started. Shane: What's going on everybody? Welcome back to the Flipped Lifestyle Podcast. It is great to be back with you again today. Super excited to talk to another member of the Flip Your Life community. You'll have to bear with us. Jocelyn and I are just getting back from a conference, and both of our voices are a little shot. We're still a little jet lagged, but that's not going to hold us back from helping today's Flip Your Life community member, Brian Kelley. Brian, we're tired, but welcome to the show. Brian: Thank you. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. Shane: And Brian's on the road too. He's on the road too. Brian: I absolutely am, yup. Shane: He's in Chicago at a conference, so he might be a little tired too. We're going to go through this now. We're going to fight through it together. How's that? Brian: That sounds great. Jocelyn: We're excited to talk to you today, Brian. You are coming to our event, which is coming up very, very soon so that is super exciting. And I know that you have been taking a lot of action lately which is how you got on the show today, so congratulations for that. And we can't wait to hear a little bit more about it, but before we get there let's hear about you and your background. Brian: All right. I work in restaurants. I've been in the restaurant industry for about 25 years, and I actually love it. I love my job. I'm married with two kids, and the issue I tend to run into is that I'm concerned about our financial future. I like what I do, but both of our kids have special needs, and it requires extra planning for the future. I don't think that there's a way for me to get my family where we ultimately need to be at retirement with just our incomes. So I'm looking to supplement it with something online. Brian: And then the other reason that I've been pursuing it is just because I think it's a lot of fun. I've listened to your Podcast for a long time now, and I've actually been a member for a year. Everything that I learn that's new and sitting down and actually creating a website and stuff is really intriguing to me. I find it exciting, and I like it, so that's kind of why I chose this path. I'm just looking for any bit of success at this point. I think I've done a lot of the base level stuff. I'm up and rolling, and I'm just trying to get that first dollar made. Shane: Dude, I get it, man. I sat there for months and months waiting for any amount of money to flow into my pocket. And what's crazy is we ask our guests on the show, we look for people in the forums who are taking action, filling out success stories, helping other people, and you have just had this flurry of activity. You've been taking all the courses, talking in the forums, coming to the live event in September, and all of this stuff lately. And that's kind of how we were like, "Whoa, what is this guy doing? He is doing everything. We've got to get him on the show, we've got to help him because we really want to reward action takers in the community." What caused this flurry of activity. You said you've been in the community for a year now. What's happened lately or changed or how'd you [inaudible 00:03:42] to get moving forward in your business? Brian: It was two things. It was, one, probably first and foremost, a new idea for a website. And secondly was I just got really angry that I hadn't finished my last idea, that I hadn't succeeded with it. I got mad and determined because of that. So I just committed and said I was starting again and going to try to do it again. Shane: And are you looking to create a full time income right now or is it more like a side hustle like you love your job? Are you looking to create something on the side that's more like, "Hey, now I can make a lot more money and still do this job that I love, and then maybe someday I can use it to get some time freedom back?" What's the ultimate goal right now? Brian: The ultimate goal is to create a full online business. Shane: Right, right, right. Brian: [inaudible 00:04:39] I want now like I really meant it when I said I think this stuff is really fun, and I'm extremely dedicated to it. I don't have to have ... I'm not beating down the door to escape my job. I love it. I love the people I work with. It's not an urgent need, but there is that need. It has to happen over the next 10 to 20 years for sure. Shane: For sure, yeah. Recently I met this guy named Mark Mason. He has a Podcast called Late Night Internet Marketing, and his story reminds me of yours a lot. He was like, "I love my job. I've got a great job. It fulfills me. I love the people I work with. But I like other things too," is what he said. And he's like, "And of course, if anything ever happened I've got this other thing. It's sitting there waiting for me. I've got choices in my life." And that's what online business can do for you. It gives you choices, and it gives you exactly what you need in the moment. Some people may love their job and just want some extra money or some people may love their job, but they're not quite sure how it could handle a recession, so they want to have something in their back pocket to do that. And some people are like, "Man, I love my job right now, but I'm smart enough to look into the future and see I'm going to need something different later," right? Brian: Yes. Shane: All of us should be doing that. Even in our online business right now we do that a lot. We look into the future and be like, "What is our business going to look like 10 years from now? What does it need to look like based on our needs, our kids' needs, our future needs as we get older or whatever?" And we have to think about those things, and it's really cool that you're seeing the flexibility here of, "Hey, let's not get desperate. Let's not get crazy. Let's just build something cool and have fun with it, and it will be there for me if I need it and my kids need it. Brian: Yes. Jocelyn: All right. So you like your job now, but you want some options as far as making extra income, which I think is a great idea. I actually used to work in the restaurant industry too years ago. I don't know if you've ever listened to our Podcast where I talk about I used to work for a commercial dish machine manufacturer. Shane: She puts your dishwasher in the back room is what she did for them. Brian: Right. I heard you say that on the Podcast. I think about it every day when I walk by a dishwasher]. Jocelyn: Yeah. Shane: That's hilarious. You might be the only person that sees a dishwasher and thinks- Brian: I know people who sell this equipment. That's right. Jocelyn: So I actually didn't do a lot of end user work. It was mostly to manufacturers' representatives and that type of thing. But anyway, so yeah I know about the restaurant industry. I've been to many trade shows and all that kind of thing, so I know a lot about restaurant stuff. Anyway, I love that you are trying to branch out and do something different. Let's talk a little bit about that. What have you tried before, and what are you doing now? Brian: Okay. As far as what I've tried before there's probably a list of five or six, maybe more, things going back 10 years all the way starting with Etsy and just trying to make products for Etsy. I looked into doing drop ship stuff for a little while and decided that totally wasn't for me. Most recently when I joined the community I had an idea for online fishing tournaments. I thought it would be really fun to do online fishing tournaments. I have a lot of friends and family that are competitive at fishing, and I thought it was going to be a great idea. The issue I ran into was two-fold. One, it really wasn't ... What I had created wasn't conducive as it was, so the membership model and I really wanted to do that, and it required so much involvement that it just was never going to work with my schedule. I didn't have the time to execute the operation, so I kind of let it die, and I got discouraged because that was my favorite idea at the moment. Shane: What is an online fishing tournament? How would that even work? Would I fish at my house and you would fish at your house and we'd take pictures? Jocelyn: No, this is what I think of. Do you remember there used to be the Nintendo Wii that had those little controllers. There was a fishing tournament on there. Shane: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Jocelyn: That's what comes to my mind. Shane: Oh yeah, we would compete on ... What was ... Brian: Actually it was like real fishing, and it's modeled after the capture, photo, release style of fishing, which is what a lot of kayak fishermen do. So instead of wait it's on links, so I built an app and people could just take a photo of the fish they caught on a fish ruler and upload it. And basically it allowed people to compete wherever they were on the same species of fish. Shane: That's actually a really cool idea though. Brian: It is, but the problem is I had to be there to launch the tournaments, and I had to be there to judge the tournaments, so there were specific times where I would have to wake up at like ... Fishermen wake up at, like, four in the morning, right, to launch a tournament. And then I had to judge it, and then there were issues with faking species. Shane: Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. Brian: There's some logistics that ... I still have that website. I have not thrown it away. I still have an e-mail list for it. There's a ton of interest in it. I just can't execute that right now. Shane: Interesting. We'll keep that one in your back pocket, okay? Jocelyn: I have never heard of an online fishing tournament. This is a first. Shane: My nephew comes over. We've got this lake behind our house. And he'll just sit here and catch fish for five hours. He's all by himself, but I could picture that being like what if he was virtually with other people fishing at the same time? Brian: And could win money for if he caught a big fish. It makes it a lot of fun. Shane: What a cool idea? That's an amazing idea. What else did you try? Brian: Oh gosh. We were doing ... I was trying to do something connected to restaurants so I modeled a website after some others I had seen that were basically just promoting websites kind of like an affiliate except it was locations and venues would pay a fee to be listed on the website, and the website would market to people that were traveling to the area, give them itineraries, lists to view, things like that. Shane: That sounds cool. What was the holdup there? It's too hard to get every restaurant in the world on it kind of deal or ... Brian: No, it was honestly ethically I didn't want to promote ... I work at a restaurant. I didn't want to promote my competition, and I didn't think that was the right thing to do. And it was honestly that started out as a way for me to gain a marketing strategy for my own restaurant briefly, and I just didn't feel okay doing that. And also there's a reason that ... I'm very experienced in the restaurant industry, but there's a reason that the things that I'm choosing to do are not related to the restaurant, and that is because I don't want burnout. Restaurant hours are long, so if I were to tackle more restaurant stuff after that I just feel like it's restaurant all the time, and that's just too much for me. I think I'd burn out because [inaudible 00:12:11] something new. Shane: For sure. A lot of people come into the community, and one of the things that you hear online a lot is, "Chase your passion and the money will follow." And there is a lot of truth to that, but like Jocelyn and I usually try to start with something you're more familiar with because it's actually a lot easier to create something and make money with something you're trained for or that you know. But if someone doesn't want to do that there's lots of other alternatives. You don't have to do that, and I totally get the burnout stuff. Shane: Even as much as I used to love football coaching, like I loved it. I ate it, I breathed it, I slept it. I was always on football coaching. But after you start a community for football coaches, you talk to coaches, you go to work and coach, you come home and coach, and you make playbooks, and you go study playbooks, then you use your playbook on Friday night I really felt the burnout. It didn't matter how much I loved or was passionate about coaching football, at the end of the day you've got to do something else, like you've got to do something else. I can totally get onboard with that. Shane: Tell us about your idea now and how did you switch to that, and when did you start it? Brian: All right. My ideal now is to educate people on credit card points, travel points and miles that you can accumulate spending on credit cards and how to cash them in for maximum value to book free trips and vacations. So my website now is learnthepoints.com, and there is a strategy in there which we teach people so they can earn eight to $10,000 worth of free travel in basically nine months. So that's my goal is to have people that are willing to pay for a monthly membership for even if it's a short term be educated on the best way to accumulate these points and to redeem them for the most value. Shane: And also, too, make sure you're paying off the credit card, staying out of debt? Brian: Yes, 100%. Shane: It's always free money, right? Brian: It's free money. Don't spend anything that you weren't normally going to spend and set up automatic payments, pay everything off every month. I came up with this idea. I got shocked, honestly, just recently. My wife and I do not have any debt. It took us a while to get there. We're very credit card averse. I had just never looked into credit card points before. I had heard people talk about miles and flying and all of that stuff, and I just assumed in my head that these were people that fly all the time, and that's how they do this or they're on these big corporate accounts, so that allows them to rack up all these points. And that's just something that's not for me, and I don't apply for credit cards, so when offers come by I don't look into that stuff. Brian: But what happened was we went through a dark time in December as a family, and when the end of the school year was rolling around and it was summertime was coming up, and we were like, "We need a vacation." All I had set aside for vacation for free money was, like, 500 bucks, which is not bad. We can have fun as a family on 500 bucks, no problem. But all of our other money goes to saving. It all goes to retirement accounts or education accounts or you name it. So we've never really taken a really awesome vacation. Brian: It was kind of out of desperation or just, "You know what? I'm going to look into this and see what it's about," that I discovered what the possibility was with credit card points. And then when I realized all these bonus sign up tricks and stuff I just got obsessed and started doing all this research and figured it out and based on that developed a strategy and a plan that's basically going to get us free vacations for the next three or four years for our family. I was like, "This is awesome. How did I not know about this for so long?" I was like, "Hey wait. This could totally be an online business. Other people need to know about this." So I just popped up a website real quick and then got enthused and jumped back into the trainings. Shane: Wow. Brian, what happened in December? Brian: Unfortunately in December we lost our daughter at birth. She died, and we were really excited. We have two boys that are young. They're four and five. Both of our boys have special needs. They're both autistic, and my oldest son has Down's syndrome. We were really excited not just to have a girl in the family but to have what would be most likely our first typically developing child as well. And it was just we were really excited about it, and there were complications during delivery, and she passed away. So it was a really sad time. There's a lot of grief and anger that comes with that, and it really ... My wife and I both went to counseling. We both got help through our church. We had spent probably three months was just like in shock and recovery. And then the next three months was kind of like just rebuilding your life a little bit and trying to return to normalcy. Brian: But after being through those last six months and dealing with that there's just this need for a break like from all of life almost in a way. We work hard. We have separate schedules. It's crazy at the house because the kids are crazy. So I could see it on my wife's face like we need a vacation. Shane: Like an actual remove from the world like- Brian: Like the community pool is not going to cut it this time. We've got to go. Jocelyn: Absolutely. Shane: How did you explain it to your kids? It would be hard enough explaining it to kids who are developing at normal rate. Was it tough? Brian: It was tough because we did a lot of practicing. We did a lot of therapy going up, so we had a doll that we carried for half a year before the due date where we were training the boys on, "Hey, this is Baby Sister, and this is how you hold Baby Sister." It took us three months before they stopped throwing the doll around. We were practicing and training and getting ready, and we had her room ready of course. We found our own special ways to talk about her with the boys and remember her. I feel like we're in a really healthy place thanks to the involvement of others in the communities that we're in mostly. It's always sad. It's just something that you're never going to forget. You don't move on from it so to speak, but you cope better and better every day. Shane: Yeah. I appreciate you sharing that. I know that's probably really hard to talk about. Jocelyn: That's just heartbreaking. I'm so sorry to hear that. Shane: It is. I'm having trouble even not crying right now, and I stammer over my words for a few minutes. I also want to just kind of highlight that you did recover, and you did move forward, and I love how you harnessed the negative thing to think about something positive like my family needs to more forward. We need to go on a vacation. That's not trivial. That's a thing that's going to help us to take the next step because we have to take the next step. Brian: Right. Shane: And then even to come up with an idea like we have a saying that we always say around our house and around our kids and others is like, "Successful people don't say I can't do that. Successful people say how can I do that?" So you didn't say, "Oh there's only $500 in the bank. I can't go on a vacation." You said, "No, this thing is important for our family. How can we make it happen?" And that's true for life. That's true for online business. That's true for anything like if you're going to be successful you've got to figure out how to do it. So regardless of whatever happens with this online business idea, dude, just the fact that you made that happen, and your family did the thing was totally worth going down that path. Brian: Yeah. Shane: That's a powerful story, man. There's an awesome story in the Bible, I believe it was David's son passed away. I don't want to butcher the Bible, but I'm just going off the cuff here. And he mourned, and then he immediately put on his cloak and got back to work. In the story people were like, "What are you doing?" And he's like, "I have to move forward. I've got other sons. I've got a kingdom I have to do," and I really felt that kind of story coming through when you were telling us that, man. I have no words about something like that, but I am very impressed and inspired by that story you just told me because if that ever were to happen to us I know, "Hey look, Brian got it, he stepped up, we can do this." So anybody else out there listening to this I hope you are really inspired by Brian's story too. Jocelyn: Okay. I am kind of curious, and I'm sure other people are too. So you got this credit card thing going. You started learning about it. And were you able to book something? Brian: We're actually we've racked up a ton of points, and we're saving them. We started kind of at the beginning of the summer, and my wife works for the school district. School's about to start, so we're just deciding what date we're going to book and where we want to go. Shane: That's amazing. Brian: We're kind of lined up and ready. We're all excited now. It's like one of those things where we were really anxious to go anywhere. We would've taken anything, you know what I mean, but now that we've got these points in the bank and we can pretty much go anywhere for free we're like, "Hold up, hold up, let's think about this. Let's pick a really good one." Shane: Right. We get a lot of points too. We're like you though. We're like we hate debt. Credit cards scare us. I pay out credit cards. Any credit card use that we have I pay it off every week, every Thursday. I don't mess around. Every Thursday I sit down. But we use two cards. We have a business card, and we have a personal card. And we put everything on it, like everything. And we pay it off once a week because man those points are like free flights here, free all-inclusive vacation in Cancun. You can just book hotels. Jocelyn: We travel a lot because our daughter's on a travel cheer team, and I got every room last year except for one for free. Shane: Yeah, and that's like nine cheerleading vacations. Nine weekends of the year we're on the road staying two or three nights. And it's just you show up, and you have a room for free. Brian: And what I think is crazy is that there are just so many people that were like me six months ago, had no idea that you could do this. Shane: I didn't know you could do it either because we were Dave Ramsey people too of course. We're like, "Get out of debt. Never use a credit card. Credit cards are evil." And I'm like, "But they're giving you free money. Wait a minute. Let me look at this for a minute." Now, you're not going to get rich off of it, but free money's free money. It doesn't matter how you look at it. Jocelyn: And disclaimer, we do not advocate going into debt to get credit card points. Shane: No, don't go into $10,000 in debt to get $5,000 in credit card points. That doesn't make sense. You're losing money there y'all. Tell us a little bit more about that. Brian: What I try to get people to understand, and I don't know if my message is really good. I'm still trying to perfect it to get it quick because there's a lot of pushback. People just don't know that you can do it. There are credit card fees on some of these cards, but essentially I had $500 in the bank. For $500 you can afford the credit card fees on eight different cards at one time. And if you were to do that you'd have somewhere between, depending on your spending, $8,000 and $12,000 worth of free travel. So it's not that it's- Shane: Right, you're spending 500 for 8,000 basically. Brian: Yeah. If you were going to spend 500 you have two options. You can either spend $500 on your vacation or you can spend $500 on the credit card fees and take a $10,000 vacation. Shane: Yeah, that's incredible. We actually know a guy that does something similar to this. He was a member of the Flip Your Life community. His name's Brad Barrett. Have you ever heard of Brad Barrett? Brian: I did. I started researching everybody. I found his ... He has a Facebook group and a training that he does. And it's awesome. Facebook group is an awesome community. He built something really great there, and his training is very to the point and succinct, and it's good info to. So I really liked looking at his stuff. Shane: Yeah. And he was an accountant, and he really did want out of his job. He just went all in. But he focused. He only went like ... It was to go to Disney. It was straight up to go to Disney. That's how he taught it. And we've met other people who do successfully do this. And I was just at a conference this weekend, and someone was telling me like, "You know, I feel like I've got to invent a brand new thing. I've got to go the blue ocean." You guys hear that blue ocean, red ocean stuff? Brian: Right. Shane: And I looked at him. I said, "No, that's not what you do." You don't have to bake a new pie. You don't have to invent a new recipe. You've got to look around and find a pie, and you just want a slice of that. So that's why we always really encourage people like if you see someone else doing something similar to you that's not bad. That's good. That means that they've figured out how to make money at it, and there's 4 billion people connected to the internet. I promise you they're not selling to all 4 billion people. You just need some of the other people that are interested in that space. It's like abundance mentality. There's more than enough customers out there. You don't have to invent the better mousetrap. You just need to find people that need a mousetrap and sell them one. You're on the right path, and there's definitely something to this. So what's holding you back right now? Is there a mindset issue or an obstacle from doing this? Brian: Okay, so I went back and I watched the Vetting Your Idea video. So I had jumped into this full force before watching that video. I wish I would've watched it first. Shane: Wait a minute. So you're saying you should do the Flip Your Life blueprint in order? Brian: Shane, I knew you were going to say that. I knew you were going to take this opportunity to tell people to follow the plan the right way. Shane: Right. People jump in all the time, and they're like, "I watched video 12, and it was awesome." And I'm like, "Did you watch one through 11 because they're important?" You've got to do it in order. The Vetting Your Idea course, you know what's funny about that course in particular. I laugh because I'm saying watch it in order. When we made the blueprint, when we created the blueprint that course didn't used to be in there. Yeah, because we were so caught up in helping people find their idea and get started. I kind of looked at it, and I was like, "I go through the process whenever we have a new business and I'm like is someone else doing this? How do I find out if it's making money online?" I have a process that I check things, and I realized we were ... Because a lot of times people get held back, and I didn't want to put too much information in front of someone like I just wanted you to get your idea and start because that's where the real magic is when you start. Shane: But then I thought, "Wow, there's really an easy way to tell if people are making money on this, and I just need to show that to them." So we put that course back in later. I actually made that course after the original blueprint was created so that people could properly vet that, yes, this is a real idea. People are definitely making money online, and I can check it empirically. I can go and say, "That is a 100% truth. This can make money online. I just have to do it." And that's kind of probably what you saw when you watched that with the idea course. Brian: Yeah 100%. So I started looking, and what I found a lot of regarding credit card points and miles there's a ton of people who are offering free courses, and they are using affiliate links for their credit card sign-ups. Shane: Yes 100%. Brian: That is what most, like 95% of what's out there is affiliates for the credit cards, which I don't think there's anything wrong with necessarily although I have started my website and really pushed that I am not an affiliate for the credit cards. Shane: Great differentiator. That makes you different. Brian: Yes. I've also noticed affiliates have different promotions and all that stuff, and sometimes teaching others isn't true. It's just not the best version of the information because they're promoting a specific credit card before another one, so I really wanted to focus on ... yeah. I really want to focus on what's going to be my users, my guests on my site, and what's going to get them the most bang for the buck the right way to do it. I'd rather not get involved with affiliates at all. I'd rather just tell them the truth like if you want to get the most money this is how you get the most money. Shane: So one sticking point is like you're kind of ... You said a lot of other people have went down the road because if I can get you to sign up for the credit card I might get a $100 fee. The bad part about that strategy is you're really relying on a lot of traffic. You've got to have a lot of traffic coming in to make that work because you're not getting any recurring off these credit card points that you get people to sign up for. It's just you get 100 bucks, you move on. You know what I mean? So you almost have to get them to sign up for five at once just to make a good chunk of change out of the beginning. Are you concerned that nobody will pay for it because the other ... Brian: Right. I was concerned that nobody would do a membership for the information. There is a lot of free information out there. It's just that my information's better than the free information that's out there, but I need to be able to convince people that it's worth whatever I'm charging right now I set it up to charge $25 a month. Shane: Right. Brian: I did find at least one site that is doing a membership model, and that gave me hope, but it was hard to find. Shane: To be fair the internet's a big place. You know what I mean? So there's probably other people out there doing it to. If you found one there's probably more. Brian: Yeah, I would think so. There is another aspect to it. Some people are also doing one-on-one coaching and booking trips for people using their credit card points to get the most value for it. So those are some one-offs that I found. But my biggest concern is that looking for validation that approaching this from the membership model setting up a $25 a month membership to educate people and provide them with free tools and resources is something that somebody will pay for, that it'll work. Shane: I would say they would if you position it correctly, right? Because there's an old saying in copywriting where if you can give people free money they'll buy your product. And this is a free money product. It is. It's like if you get the cards you will get free money. You will get the points. So if you can say, "Hey look, I ..." Telling your story is the most critical part of your marketing because you literally did this. You're like, "Look, I have no debt. I have these cards. I've got three vacations, enough money for three vacations over the next three years. I have $8,000 in credit card points. I spent $500 to do it. I made $7,500." This is true. These are all facts. You can check it. It's 100% real, and it happens when you do it this way. So like that's free money. It really is. It sounds so scammy but it's not. It's free money. It really is free money. Brian: It is, yes. Shane: And you've actually done this. Your story is where you have to start with your marketing to convince people that that's going to happen. Jocelyn: I almost feel like this is one of those situations where it's a side-by-side. And what I mean by that is that you have a course on one side, and you list all the benefits of just doing the DIY course. And then on the other side you have your monthly payment, which is the same price as your course, but it just recurs. And you position that as this is the courses plus support from me as you go through this. Shane: Yeah. So it is kind of two products. The content is isolated, but then there's a way to interact with you like I'm going to help you make purchasing decisions, and I'm going to help you. I'm going to walk with you as you spend the money. We're going to have a ... A buddy of mine does a membership, so listen to what this is. He does this membership where basically it's a writing hour. So twice a week he shows up, he does a quick writing tip, and then basically he has, like, 300 members and they all just show up to write together. That's what they do, but it's accountability. It's to ask a question. It's to just hang out really. There's no relieving content involved in the membership, but people love it because they've got somewhere to go in the moment to either get accountability or ask a question. Shane: So it's like you could have a weekly pay off your credit card party. Hey guys, last week we got our groceries. Hey Jim, what'd you do? Oh man, I bought a subscription to Netflix. Okay, let's pay that off. You could keep people out of debt parties. It's not like you're really even answering questions. It's just you show up, and everybody's accountable to stay out of debt while they're accumulating their points. And then they can ask questions to you like, "Well, I found this other card. Is this a good card Brian?" Yeah it is. That's a good card. You should do this. You should do that. Don't worry. You can trust my advice because I'm not an affiliate for that card. Brian: Exactly. Shane: But you can throw stones at the other people like, "Hey guys, all these other people they're recommending cards that give them the best affiliate payout. Not me. Brian you can trust because I'm here for you." I love the idea that the course is separate or they can work with you for real, work with you. And your whole story then becomes so important because now they trust you to join your membership community. So you're not selling them content anymore. You're not selling them the path anymore. You're really just selling you. You know what I mean? And your experience, your coaching, and your leadership. Brian: If I switch this over and change it so I've got this side-by-side thing going on on the website would you market or promote the course, and then when they get to the landing page they would see the course or the membership option then? Shane: I'm going to give everybody that's listening a tip right now. Nobody cares what's in your course. Nobody cares about the course. All they care about is your story. The only thing I would be telling yours like you need to go on this vacation, and you need to have some pictures of it, and you need to be able to talk about it, and you need to be able to blog about it. And everything happens going forward is I had this horrible experience. I knew my family needed vacation. I found a way. We did it. And now I'm bringing the torch back from Mt. Olympus. This is a heroes journey story if there ever has been one. Jocelyn: I agree. And I don't think that the course material is unimportant per se. Shane: Right. It's not unimportant. It's just not the most important. Jocelyn: But I do feel that the most important things are being able to relate to you, can you solve their problem, and then the course material is way on down the list. Shane: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like the second thing. Jocelyn: And I think people get this backwards. People always want to do their sales page look at all these wonderful things that I have in my course or program. And they want to give you the 10-minute rundown of every nut and bolt in their program. People don't care about that. People care about can you solve my problem and do I like you? Shane: What most people remember at any event, like let's say you go to a rock concert, when musicians create their set they really focus on the first song and the last song because that's what you're going to remember. It's like a movie. You remember how a movie started. A lot of stuff happens in the beginning, and we all remember the end. You know what I'm saying? Jocelyn: Right. Shane: It's like Avengers. There's like 18 movies over like 20 years, and pretty much it all boiled down to at the beginning Thanos wanted some rocks, and at the end Iron Man fights him. That's what we all remember in between, right? So that's kind of what you're doing here. It's like, "This is my story. This is real. You can trust that it's real because all these other people are only recommending things that pay them good. I'm not because I'm not an affiliate for any of these people. I'm telling you the truth, and inside my community I'm going to help you do it. Shane: So you can have a general list of things like categorical these are the results you'll get inside. Know the first thing you'll buy. Know the first card to get. Know the order that they're going to get. You're more telling the results, but you're not telling the exact courses and all that stuff. There's no reason to. No one cares. But when they get inside we get into detail. Jocelyn: Okay. Shane: First course, blueprint one, second course, blueprint two, third course, blueprint three. That's when you get really into it. Don't try to sell the content. Like you said the content's free. I hate to tell everybody this. All content's free. Every piece of content that has ever existed inside of any course is somewhere free on the internet. Now, can you find it? Is it hard to find? That's where curation and courses come into play. But it's all free. You've just got to figure out how to make your free stuff look better, and your story is the best way to do that. Brian: Okay, great. Jocelyn: Okay, Brian. I think that we have some good ideas about moving forward as far as your product goes. What else do you need help with right now? Brian: I think I'm up to close to 400 people on my e-mail list. That's mainly coming through Facebook and Facebook ads with my lead magnet. However, I have not converted anybody on my e-mail list into purchasing as of yet. Shane: How often do you e-mail your list? Let me ask you a couple questions here. It's a big list. You should've converted something, so let's figure this out. Brian: Yeah. I have an auto responder set up for the first eight e-mails that follow very closely the e-mails in the blueprint. So those go out, and I follow the same timeline, so it's like a couple immediately and then about a week later and then a couple days later. And then there's one at the end two weeks out that's like, "Hey, I'm not going to send you anymore. You'll just continue to get vacation updates from me basically." And I send out whenever I have time to design a new vacation that somebody can take for free I just e-mail that to my whole list. Shane: So basically your e-mail ... So only your auto responder is what's tried to sell this so far. You've only [crosstalk 00:40:30]. Brian: That's true. That's correct, only my auto responder, yeah. Shane: Okay. What if you sent them a message that said, "Hey, I'm doing a live training this week, and I'm going to show you how to get $8,000 for free?" Brian: I haven't done that yet. Shane: Okay. You've got to add more layers to it. The auto responder is just for picking low hanging fruit, the lowest of the fruit. Actually it's like walking under an apple tree, and the apple has already fell off, and you bend down and pick it up. That's where automation comes in. You're never going to convert more than a single digit percentage off of your e-mail list, right? You have to add live Webinars. You have to add weekly Podcasts or blog posts or something. Shane: I'm also looking at your site here, and it definitely needs a facelift. It's just too plain, and it's also too ... It looks too pie and the sky. For example, let's take you. I'm going to describe your website as I go through here. One, at the top you've got all these credit cards. That's cool. Then it says, "Become a member." You know what I'm saying? It's just like okay that's cool. Then it's like a picture of four probably 18-year-old girls running down a beach. That's not Brian. Brian was a dad who had just lost his daughter and went through a dark time. And the rest of his family needed him to step up and help them climb out of the darkness, right? Brian: Right. Shane: So Brian, with his two children and his wife went forward together. I need to see a family here. That's what I need to see. I don't need to see this. Shane: Then the next one is a guy with like a mini Afro and a surf board. He's like, "Whoa, dude, I'm a cool 18-year-old dude on a beach in Thailand making six bucks a day or whatever." That's not Brian, man, I really came home from work at the restaurant and I was tired, and I knew we needed a vacation. So you're not talking to the other guys out there that are like, "Yo, I'm tired. My family really needs me to step up and figure out a way. I've not been able to afford a vacation in three years. What can I do to help my family get a little break?" You know what I'm saying? Brian: Right. Shane: It's just not resonating. The people who are on your list are just not resonating with what they're seeing and hearing in your marketing. Brian: Ah, that makes sense, okay. Shane: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Your story is not being told, and that's why nobody's buying anything from you. We tell some pretty deep stories, and we wrestled with how much of our personal life we always want to share on the Flipped Lifestyle Podcast or when we speak on stage. And 99% of the time it's be an open book because our stories are what really help someone else. And we told our stories this week. We were at FlynnCon, and we spoke with Pat Flynn on stage, and we told the story of Isaac being mistreated in a daycare center. That's a really hard story to tell when you find out someone was literally locking your child into a bathroom to punish them for potty training accidents at three years old it's horrifying to even say that out loud. But that story always makes people realize how important their kids are, how important their time is. They want to get their kids out of daycare centers and home with them. Shane: I have to tell that story because if I don't then I can't relate to someone enough to make them change their life. So your story has to take over this page. Your family has to take over this page. And you have to say to somebody, "If we did it you can do it too," and that'll resonate more as well. And then showing up live not just in their inbox is going to give you a better chance to convert those. Shane: If you could get 50 of those people to come to a Webinar, and you told us your story like the way we even talked about it off air today before the Podcast started people are going to resonate with that because they're going to look at their kids, and they're going to look at their family, and they're going to realize this guy's for real. If he wasn't for real he'd be signing up for all the affiliate things just trying to get my affiliate check, right? But he's telling me the truth, and I need to listen to this guy, and he can help me. Where do I sign up? So if you could just plant some storytelling overtop of all of this, and then do the work. And I know you're going to do the work because you're an action taker, you could turn this thing around. 400 people, man, you've got members. We just have to get the message right to do it. Shane: I'd love to see your e-mails too. We don't have time to go over every e-mail in your auto responder today, but your e-mails should be telling the story. It shouldn't just be here's all the benefits. It's like in 2018 December this happened. It moves into why you went down the path to the credit cards, and that creates trust, and it shows them like, "Hey, this guy figured it out. I can figure it out. Let's do this." Brian: Okay. Yes. Jocelyn: All right Brian, it has been great talking to you today, and I can't wait to see what you do next. Before we go we always ask our guests what is one thing that you plan to take action on based on what we talked about today? Brian: I am going to ... Since I am out of town right now I am going to set up the side-by-side course versus the membership on the website and just get that done quickly. And then when I get back home I'm going to start taking some pictures with my family and redoing my story on the website. Shane: Love it. I love that you're like, "I'm going to take some pictures with my family. We're putting them on there." That's good. And I want to see the website, so make sure you send it to me in the forums or hit me up, and I want to see the link when you redo it because it'll be awesome. Brian: Will do. Shane: Hey Brian, before we go let me ask you a question. What made you come to Flip Your Life Live? Flip Your Life Live happens in Lexington, Kentucky on September 19 through the 21st of 2019. It's our big Flip Your Life Flipped Lifestyle Podcast family reunion where all of our listeners, fans, followers, and members can come together in one place to hang out together, eat together, work together, and really get inspired to do big things for our families. I always love to hear people's stories. Why did you come to Flip Your Life Live? What made you look at it and go, "I got to go. I just got to go to Flip Your Life Live?" Brian: I wanted to dive all in. I didn't want to leave anything on the table. Really I am not afraid of failure. I am really afraid of not trying, not giving it my all. And I just felt like, "Hey, this is something I haven't done, and I can't say that I gave it all I could if I didn't go." Shane: I love that, man. No regrets, right. I'd rather have a life full of failures than a life full of regrets at the end of it. Brian: Also I'm not paying for the flight, so that helps. Shane: Shameless plug for the credit card points. I love it. That's amazing. Jocelyn: Love it. That is awesome. Shane: Listen. If you would like to join us and Brian in Lexington, Kentucky at Flip Your Life Live this year go to flippedlifestyle.com. That's F-L-I-P-P-E-D lifestyle.com/live. We have a few tickets left, but they are almost sold out, and this will be the last big conference Flip Your Life Live that we do for a while. We are not doing the event in 2020, so you can't go all in next year. You might as well go all in with us and Brian this year at Flip Your Life Live. Jocelyn: And who knows, maybe if you join Brian's membership maybe he can get you a free flight too. Shane: That's right. Maybe you can fly there too. Go to flippedlifestyle.com/live. We'd love to see you at our live event. All right guys, that is all the time we have for this week. Thank you so much for listening to the Flipped Lifestyle Podcast today. We would love to see you inside of our community as well. Who knows, you may end up right here on the Podcast just like Brian did. So if you'd like to take action today go to flippedlifestyle.com/flipyourlife and you can check out all of our membership options. Shane: Before we go today we like to close every show with a verse from the Bible. Today's Bible verse comes from 1 Thessalonians 5:16-19. The Bible says, "Be joyful always. Pray continually. Give thanks in all circumstances. This is the will of God for your life." Shane: Until next time, guys, get out there, take action. Do whatever it takes to flip your life. We'll see you then. Jocelyn: Bye. Links and resources mentioned on today's show: Brian's Website Flip Your Life LIVE 2019 Tickets & Registration Information Flip Your Life community PROLIFIC Monthly Enjoy the podcast; we hope it inspires you to explore what's possible for your family! Join the Flip Your Life Community NOW for as little as $19 per month! https://flippedlifestyle.com/flipyourlife

We’re back with a special music-related analytics episode! Following Next Big Sound’s acquisition by Pandora, Julien Benatar moved from engineering into product management and is now responsible for the company’s analytics applications in the Creator Tools division. He and his team of engineers, data scientists and designers provide insights on how artists are performing on Pandora and how they can effectively grow their audience. This was a particularly fun interview for me since I have music playing on Pandora and occasionally use Next Big Sound’s analytics myself. Julien and I discussed: How Julien’s team accounts for designing for a huge range of customers (artists) that have wildly different popularity, song plays, and followers How the service generates benchmark values in order to make analytics more useful to artists How email notifications can be useful or counter-productive in analytics services How Julien thinks about the Data Pyramid when building out their platform Having a “North Star” and driving analytics toward customer action The types of predictive analytics Next Big Sound is doing Resources and Links: Julien Benatar on Twitter Next Big Sound website Next Big Sound blog The Data Pyramid model Quotes from Julien Benatar "I really hope we get to a point where people don’t need to be data analysts to look at data." "People don’t just want to look at numbers anymore, they want to be able to use numbers to make decisions." "One of our goals was to basically check every artist in the world and give them access to these tools and by checking millions of artists, it allows us to do some very good and very specific benchmarks" “The way it works is you can thumb up or thumb down songs. If you thumb up a song, you’re giving us a signal that this is something that you like and something you want to listen to more. That’s data that we give back to artists.” “I think the great thing today is that, compared to when Next Big Sound started in 2009, we don’t need to make a point for people to care about data. Everyone cares about data today.” Episode Transcript Brian: I’m really excited today for this episode. We have Julien Benatar on the show and he’s from a company that I’m sure a lot of people here know. You probably have had headphones on at your desk, at home, or wherever you are listening to Pandora for music. Julien , correct me if I’m wrong, you were the product manager for artist tools and insights at Next Big Sound, which is a type of data product that provides information on music listening stats to, I assume, artists’ labels as well to help them understand where their fans are and social media engagement. I love this topic. I’m also a musician, I have a profile on Next Big Sound and I feel music’s a fun way to talk about analytics and design as well because everybody can relate to the content and the domain. Welcome to the show. Did I get all that correct? Julien: Yeah, it was perfect. Brian: Cool. Tell us a little about your background. You’re from France originally? Julien: Yes, exactly. I grew up next to Paris, in Versailles more specifically, and moved to New York in 2014 to join Next Big Sound. Brian: Cool, nice. You’ve been there for about four years, something like that. You have a software engineering background and then now you’re on the product side, is that right? Julien: Exactly yes. I joined the company back when we were a startup. Software engineering was perfect, there was so much to do. To our move to Pandora, I moved to a product manager role around a year ago. Brian: Next Big Sound was independent and then they were acquired by Pandora. I assume there is good stuff about your data. Why did Pandora acquire you and how did they see you guys improving their service? Julien: We got acquired in 2015. The thing is, Next Big Sound was already really involved in the music industry. We already had clients like the three major labels and a lot of artists were using us to get access to their social data. I think it was a very natural move for Pandora as they wanted to get closer to creators and provide better analytics tools. Brian: For people that aren’t on the service, I always like to know who are the actual end users, the people logging in, not necessarily the management, but who sits down and what are some of the things that they would do? Who would log in to Next Big Sound and why? Julien: Honestly, it’s really anyone having any involvement into the music industry, so that can be an artist, obviously, try looking to try their socials and their audience on Pandora. But you can also be a booker trying to book artists in their town. We have a product that can really be used by many different user personas. But our core right now is really artists and labels, having contents on Pandora and trying to tell them the most compelling story about what they’re doing on the platform. Brian: When you think about designs, it’s hard to design and we talk about this on the mailing list sometimes but it’s really hard to design one great thing that’s perfect for everybody so usually you have to make some choices. Do you guys favor the artist, or the label, or as you call them,the bookers or whom I know as presenters,in the performing arts industry? Do you have a sweet spot, like you favor one of those in terms of experience? Julien: I think it’s something we’re moving towards, but it hasn’t always been this way. Like I told you, we used to be a startup or grow us to make a product that could work for as many people as possible. What is funny is we used to have an entity on Next Big Sound called Next Big Book where we used to provide the same type of service for the book industry. If anything, it’s been great to join Pandora because then we could really refocus on creators and it really allowed us to, I believe, create much better and more targeted analytics tools to really fulfill needs for specific people like artists and labels. Brian: I would assume individual artists are your biggest audience or is it really heavily used by the labels or who tends to... Julien: I think it’s pretty much the same honestly. I think the great thing today is that, compared to when Next Big Sound started in 2009, we don’t need to make a point for people to care about data. Everyone cares about data today. I think that everyone has reasons to look at their dashboards and especially for a platform like Pandora with millions of users every month. Our goal is really just telling them a story about what does it mean to be spinning on the platform and the opportunities it opens. Brian: You talked about opportunities, do you have any stories about a particular artist or a label that may have learned something from your data and maybe they wrote to you or you found out like in an interview how they reacted like, “Hey, we changed our tool routing,” or, “Hey, we decided to focus on this area instead of that area.” Do you know anything about how it’s been put into use in the wild? Julien: Yeah, it’s used for so many different reasons. For the people who don’t use Pandora, something I really like about the platform is it’s really about quality. As you use Pandora, you have the opportunity to thumb up or thumb down songs and as you do, you’re going to get recommended more songs like the ones you like. It’s really about making sure that you get the best songs at all times. The reality then is that for artists, their top songs on Pandora can be pretty different than their top songs on other platforms because sometimes their friends are going to be just reacting more to some part of their catalog than another one. I’ve heard many times of artists changing their playlists in looking at which songs where their fans thumbing up the most on Pandora. Brian: Could you go through that again? How would they adjust their playlist? Julien: Usually, people use Pandora as a radio service. While we already have internet today, most people are listening to the radio because they’re usually are very targeted and it just works really well. The way it works is you can thumb up or thumb down songs. If you thumb up a song, you’re giving us a signal that this is something that you like and something you want to listen to more. That’s data that we give back to artists. We tell them, “This are your most thumbed songs on Pandora. These are the songs that people engage with the most on the platform.” Looking at this data, you can actually inform them songs that they believe they should be playing more on the store. Brian: I see. A lot of it has to do with the favoriting aspect to give them idea what’s resonating with their audiences. Julien: Qualitative feedback, yes. Brian: Got it. Actually, it’s funny you mentioned the qualitative feedback. In preparation for this, I was reading an article that you guys put out back in March about a new feature called weekly performance insights, which is really cool and this actually reminds me of something that I talked about in the Designing for Analytics mailing list, which is the act of providing qualitative guides with your analytics. A lot of times they analyze for turnout quantitative data and whenever there’s an opportunity to put stuff into context or provide qualifiers, I think that’s a really good thing and you guys look like you’ve have done some really nice things here. I’ll paraphrase it and then you can jump in and maybe give us some backstory on it. One of the things that I think is really cool is there're concepts of normalcy in here so that, if I’m an artist and I look at my numbers, I have an idea. For your Twitter mentions, for example, you say, “For artists with 26,000 followers, we expect you to get around 44 mentions.” When you show me that I have 146 mentions, I can tell that I’m substantially higher than what my social group would be. I think that’s a really fantastic concept that people not in music could try to apply as well which is, are there normalcy bans where you’d want to sit? Is there some other type of group, maybe, an industry, or apparent group, or another business unit, whatever it may be to provide some context for what these out of the blue numbers mean that don’t have any context? How did you guys come up with that and can you tell us a bit about the design process of going from maybe just showing, “You’re at 826 apples,” as compared to what? How did you move from just a number into this these kind of logical groupings where you provide the comparisons? Julien: I think what’s really fascinating is, we really live in an age of data. As an artist, you need to be on social media for the most part. There still a lot of artists I listen to but just decide not to. It’s part of things but at the same time, real big success in the music industry didn’t change. It’s still being on the Billboard chart, getting a Grammy and all these things. But as we see this, we have millions of artists looking at their data every day and just are not able to understand, like is it good or is it not good. Everyone starts at zero. We have a strong belief that data can only be useful when put in context. Looking at the number on its own can give you a sense of how things are doing but that can also be dismissive. An example is, a very common way to look at data is to look at a number and look at the percent changing comparison to the previous week. You’ve got a bunch of tables and you look at, am I growing or am I not growing. The reality is it’s actually impossible to always have a positive percent change. There’s no artist in the world that always does better week by week. Even Beyonce, I can assure you that the week she released Lemonade, she had more engagement on Twitter than the week after. With that in mind, we really try to give a way for artists to understand how are they doing for who they are and where they are currently in their career. Next Big Sound started in 2009. One of our goals was to basically check every artist in the world and give them access to these tools and by checking millions of artists, it allows us to do some very good and very specific benchmarks. For an artist, like the example you said, for instance an artist with a thousand Twitter mentions in a week, is it good or bad in comparison to their audience size? This feature comes because that’s just the question we’re asked. Artists want to know is it any good? What does this number actually mean for me? That’s why we really wanted to, in some ways, get out of being a content aggregator platform and really be a data analytics platform. How can we actually give information that can help artist make better decisions? Brian: I remember the first time I got what I would call an anomaly detection email from your service and it was about some spike in YouTube views or something like that. I thought it’s fantastic in two reasons. First of all, you identify an anomalous change and I think in this case it’s a positive anomalous change. That tells me that I should log in the tool. Secondly, you proactively delivered that to me. On the Designing for Analytics mailing list, we talk about is that user experience does not necessarily live inside your web browser interface or your hard client or whatever you’re using to show your analytics. Email and notifications are a big part of that. Can you tell me about how you guys also arrived at when you pushed these things out and maybe talk about this little anomaly detection service that you have? Julien: It all started when we got acquired by Pandora. We decided to just invite a bunch of users and just talk to them, understand how to use our product and what did they think about it. We had artists, managers, and label people come over and we just talk to them and basically they all said, “We love it.” But then, by looking at their actual usage, they don’t use it that much. I guess one of their questions was when should I be looking at my data? Everyone is very busy. As you’re an artist, you need to perform, you need to write music, you need to engage with your fans and same goes with everyone. When should I look at data? The reality is by being a data company, we do get all the data, we have all the numbers. We have ways to know when things are supposed to be known, when artists should be acting on something. We just turn this into this email notifications. Anytime we notice that an artist is doing better than expected, we just let them know right away. Brian: That’s great. Do you do it on the opposite end too? If there’s an unexpected drop or maybe like, “Oh, you put a new track out and your socials dropped,” or something like that, do you look at the negative side too or do you tend to only promote the positive changes? Julien: As far as pushes, we decided to only do push for positive. But as you mentioned weekly performance, weekly performance can give you some negative insights, like, “You’re not doing as well as artists with the same size of audience as yours.” The reason we didn’t do it for our notification is, anomalies are really hard to completely control. A reason, for instance, is Twitter removing bots. Basically, every single artist would have had an email telling them, “You lost Twitter followers this week.” It was a lot of work to really tune our anomaly factor to actually only send emails when something legitimate happens. That’s the reason we only decided so far to do it for positive but we actually have been thinking about doing the same for negative but that’s another type of work. Brian: Yeah, you’re right. You have to mature these things over time. You don’t want to be a noise generator. Julien: Exactly. Brian: Too many, then people start to ignore you. I’ve seen that with other data products I’ve worked on which just have really dumb alerting mechanisms that are very binary or they’re set at a hard threshold and just shootout noise and people just tune it out. Julien: I’m glad you mentioned this because this feature was in beta for a year for that specific reason. Brian: Got it. Julien: We had to learn the hard way. We had like a hundred beta users. We’ve got way too many emails because anytime there were an anomaly anywhere, they would just get an email. For the most part, it was things that were supposed to help them. If a notification becomes noise, then that’s absolutely against its purpose. Brian: I don’t know if everybody knows how the music business works, at least from the popular music side, but just to summarize. You have individual artists that are actually performers. They may or may not have an artist manager which takes care of their business affairs, represents them like negotiations with people that book shows. Then you have labels which are sort of like an artist manager except they’re really focused on the recording assets that the artist makes and they actually tend to own the recordings outright at the beginning and then over time, the artist may recoup through sales they make it the ownership act and the sound recordings they make. Of those kinds of three major groups, is there a one that’s particularly hungry or you’re the squeaky wheel that is most interested in what you’re doing? Julien: I really think that into these three groups, we have a subset of users that are really into the data and into the actionability of it. I don’t think it’s one specific group of user. It could be all around the industry like we have the data-savvy, they really want to know. We have some users that actually would rather get more notifications even if they need to on their end to figure what is right from what is wrong. But since we have such a wide user base of different type of people, we decided to go on the conservative side and make sure to only share things that we thoroughly validated through all of our filters. Brian: I assume that your group reports into some division of Pandora, I’m not sure of that. Are you reporting into a technology, like an IT, or a business unit, or marketing? Where do you guys fit in the Pandora world? Julien: We’re part of the creator’s tools. I don’t really have a perfect answer to this. Brian: Okay. I guess my main question being, because when we talk about designing services, we talk about both user experience, which is the end user thing and about business success or organization success. I’m curious, how does Pandora measure that Next Big Sound as delivering value? I can understand, I’m sure our artist can understand how the artists value it through understanding how is my music moving my audiences, et cetera. Is there a way that Pandora looks at it? Are they interested in just time spent? The analytics on the analytics, so to speak, is what I’m asking about. How do you guys look at it like, “Hey, this is really doing a good job,” or whatever? Do you know how that’s looked at? Julien: To be honest, I think you said it right. Our goal is to help artists make their decisions through data and having artists use the platform is currently the way Pandora sees us doing a good job. Actually, it hasn’t changed that much since our acquisition. One of our main KPI for the past and couple of years is something I would call insights consumes. Just making sure that our users, artists, anyone using Next Big Sound are consuming data. That can be them logging into the website or that can be them opening one of our notifications. But so far that was our main KPI. We’re trying to work on some more targeted KPI, potentially like actions taken, that would be the North Star, but we're still working on how to do that right. Brian: Do you guys facilitate actions, so to speak, directly in the tool or are there things people can do with those actions really take place outside of the context of Next Big Sound? Julien: There are actions that artists can take to the other creator’s tools provided by Pandora. For instance, artists have the ability to send audio messages to anyone listening to them. If they go on tour into the US, they can have targeted messages in every single song they’re going to play. If anyone listens to them there, they can just click and buy a ticket. We’re working to make sure that artists are aware of these tools because they are free and they’re generally helping them grow at their careers. But regarding external actions, so far we don’t have any one-click way to tweet at the right time to the right people or with the right content or anything like this. Brian: Sure and that’s understood. Not every analytics product is going to have a direct actionable insight that comes right out of it. You guys may be feeling a longer term picture about trending and maybe for a certain artist to get an idea if they’re releasing music fairly frequently, what stuff is working and resonating, and what stuff is not. I can understand that. There may not be a button to click as a result immediately. Julien: That’s the goal though. Everything we do right now is going towards this objective. Maybe I can tell you a little about the way we think about data and that can give more sense to it. In order to work on any new feature, we follow this concept called the data pyramid. It’s something that you can Google. There’s a Wikipedia page for it. Let me explain to you how it works. The data pyramid, it’s a pyramid formed of four layers. It could be upon each other and each representing an exquisitely useful application of data. At the bottom of the pyramid we have the data layer. Any sort of data that we may have. For our case, Android data, Twitter, Facebook just getting the numbers, getting the raw data. On top of it, we have the information layer. The information layer is going to be ways you have to visualize this data. I guess it’s like the very broad sense of analytics. We’re going to give you tables, graphs, pie charts, you name it. We’re giving you ways to craft stories about this data but it’s on you to figure it out. Then on top of it we have what we call the knowledge layer. That’s where things start to get interesting. The knowledge layer is the contextual part of it. It’s like, “What do this number actually mean?” It has industry expertise. For instance, the way we’re going to work about it for musicians and their true data may be different than any other industry. The knowledge layer goes like a weekly performance. It’s a perfect answer to it. It’s what does it mean for me as a musician with a hundred fans to get two mentions this week. Same for notifications. It’s telling you that you should be looking at your data right now because something is happening. That’s how we get to the North Star and the last part of the data pyramid which is intelligence. The goal of intelligence is actionability. Now that I get to understand what does this number mean to the specific context, what should I be doing? Following your question, everything we’re trying to do here is to get to a point where we can just send an email to an artist and tell them, “Hey, you should be doing this right now because, with all the data that we have, we believe that this is going to have the highest impact for you.” Brian: It‘s really fascinating that you just outlined this data pyramid. I actually haven’t heard of this before. It made me think of one of the kind of, it’s not a joke but in the music community, I’m also a composer and when we write stuff, the kind of running joke is like nothing is new. Your ideas for this new song or this new melody I’m composing, it probably came before you. You heard it there before. I wrote a post on my list that was pretty much exactly the same thing except the knowledge layer. I was calling that insight. Data have been this raw format and information being the first human-readable format that’s like say going from raw data to a chart, a histogram. Now I have a line on a chart and then the insight layer being, I have a line on the chart and another line comparing it to like you said, average, or my social group, or a parent group, or some taxonomy, or an index. Then the action or the prescription for what to do or the prediction those that kind of lead you in about action which would be that fourth state. You’re like, “Oh, is this really a new concept?” It’s like, “Nope. Someone else already thought of that.” I totally want to go read about this data pyramid. Julien: That’s amazing. Brian: I’ll find that link to the data pyramid and I’ll put that in the show notes for sure. I thought that was really funny. Julien: It’s funny that you called it insight because that’s the way we call a lot of our features are working out. The way we define insight is bite-size, noteworthy, sharable content. How can we get into the noise of all of the data that only gives you exactly what you should be looking at. That’s how we got into notification and weekly performances. This is the one thing you should be looking at. Brian: I understand what you’re getting at there. The insights are, like you said, bite-size chunks of interesting stats that someone can put some kind of context around. That’s great and it’s good. One of the things I liked, too, that you talked about was you said, “Oh we got like a hundred users, like a beta group and that kind of inspired some of this.” Your product response to how do we help people know when to come and look at our service. I think this is really good because one of the problems that I see with clients and people on the list, I think is low engagement. This is especially true for internal analytics companies. Low engagement can be a symptom of a difficult product, it doesn’t provide the right information at the right time, it may not have a lot of utility, or it’s a resistance to change. People have done something the old way and they don't want to do it the new way. One of the recipes you can follow if you’re trying to do a redesign or increase engagement is to involve the people that are going to use the service in the design process, both the stakeholders as well as the end customers. This is especially true again for the internal analytics people. Your customers or other employees and your colleagues. By engaging them in the design process, they’re much more likely to want to change whatever they’re doing now. I loved how you guys did some research. Now I want to ask, do you frequently do either usability testing or interviews? Is that an ongoing thing at your company or is it really just in front of a big feature release or something like that? How do you guys do this research? Can you tell me about that? Julien: Of course. It’s consent. We haven’t released any major feature without doing some heavy user testing. I’m very lucky to be working with two designers, Justin and Anabelle who are very user-focused. Honestly, if you come to our office, at least every week we’re going to have some user interview and just talking to them, showing them prototypes, and just see how do they play with it. Brian: So you’re doing a lot of testing it sounds like. That’s fantastic. Julien: At the same time it’s always to find the right balance because you could be overtesting things too. We really are focusing on user testing for new things and make sure that the future that we are working on actually answers their user story that we intended. Brian: I don’t know how involved you get participating in these, but do you have any interesting stories or anecdotes that you got from one of those that you could share? Julien: Let me think. I do participate into a lot of them but I’m not sure I have an example right now. Brian: Are most of the people you interview, are they current users of Next Big Sound or do you tend to focus on maybe artists that haven’t experienced the service yet or you mix it up? Julien: We mix it up. We mostly engage with users that we already have but then we can decide to go with users that haven’t used the platform for a while, or more active users if you want to understand how we’re useful into their day to day. What I would say is that, surprisingly, it’s very easy to get users to chat about their experience with the product. I didn’t assume that we would get so many responses when we tried to have people come over or just hop on the zoom to check a new feature. Brian: I’m glad you actually mentioned that because I think in some places, recruiting is perceived to be difficult and it probably isn’t. Maybe you haven’t done it before but as I tell a lot of my clients, a lot of people love to have someone listen to them talk, tell them all about their life and what’s wrong with it, and how it could be better with their tools. They love having someone listen to them and especially if they know that their feedback is going to influence a tool or a service that they’re using. They tend to be pretty engaged with it. I find it’s really rare that I do an interview with a client’s customer and they don’t want to be included in the future round like, “Hey, when we redesign the service, can we come back to you and show you what we’ve done?” “Oh, I love to do that!” Everybody wants to get engaged with it. There are places where recruiting can be difficult when it’s hard to access the users, some of the enterprise software space that can be an issue sometimes. But generally, if you can get access to them, they tend to be pretty willing to participate. I’m glad you mentioned that. Julien: I think the great part about testing with current users on the platform is to actually show them prototypes with real data, not just show them an abstract idea that we want to work on. As soon as they can see what we’re working on apply to their own career as musicians, for instance, that can lead to fascinating discussions. Brian: You made a really good point on the real data thing. I remember as far back as 10 years ago or whenever, I use to work at Fidelity Investments, we would see this issue when we’re working on the retail site for investors. When you show a portfolio that, for example, has Apple stock trading at $22 in it, you’re not really there to test what is the price of Apple stock but you might be testing something entirely different and the customer cannot bear what is going on? They’re so stuck on this thing. It’s all fake seed data in the prototype. The story here being if you’re a listener, when you test it’s important to have at least realistic data. You don’t want to have noise in the test or whatever your studying or else you can end up on this tangent. Try to make the numbers looks somewhat realistic if you’re using quantitative data. In some cases, people can be taught to roleplay. Pretend you’re Drake or pretend you’re some big artist and then they can get their head around why they have billions of streams instead of thousands which they’re used to. Julien: Absolutely. That also helps us just build better products because the reality is we have a lot of artists with maybe 10 plays in a month. As we build visualizations like something that we built a line of looking at Drake’s data, it’s not going to work as intended for a smaller artist sometimes. Having real data involved as soon as possible into the design process has been such a game changer for us. We really have a multidisciplinary team involved into the research and design of everything we do. I’m working with a data scientist, data engineer, a web engineer, and designer on a daily basis. Obviously, we all have our things to do. But as we get into creating something new, we just make sure to have someone helping us get the real data, interview the right user, and just create prototypes as soon as possible. Working with prototypes is essential into building useful data analytics tools. Brian: Yes, you do learn a lot more with a working prototype. It’s not to say you can’t test with lower fidelity goods, especially early on but for a service like yours when the range of possible use both the personas and also you’ve got the Drakes of the world, big major label artist and then down to really small independents, it’s really important to have an idea how your charts are going to scale, and what’s going to happen with data. Even just small stuff like how many decimal points should you be showing on a mobile device, some of the numbers might cram up. Julien: Exactly. Brian: All this stuff that you never think, if you only look at one version of everything, you can end up with a mess. I’m glad that you brought that up. Julien: I couldn’t say better. The decimal is actually something that we’ve had to discover through real data. Brian: To all of you in the technical people out there, I will say this. If I’ve seen one trend with engineers, is they love precision and there’s a lot of times when there’s very unnecessary precision being added to numbers. Such as charts and histograms. Histograms are usually about the trend, they’re not about identifying what was the precise value on this date at this time. It’s about the change over time. Showing what’s my portfolio worth down to three digits of micro-cents or something like that is just unnecessary detail. You can probably just round up to the dollar or even hundreds of dollars or even thousands of dollars in some cases. It actually is worse. The reason it’s worse is that adds unnecessary noise to the interface, you’re providing all these inks that someone has to mentally process, and it’s actually not really meaningful ink because the change is what’s important. Think about precision when you’re printing values. Julien: This concept of noise is so essential today for any data analytics tools. There is so much data today. There is data for everything. I think it’s our responsibility as a data analytics company to make sure what are we actually trying to help our user with this data set is not just about adding new metrics. Adding new metrics usually is just going to add noise and not be helpful in comparison to fairing what do they need to make the right decision. Brian: Right. Complexity obviously goes up. The single verb, ‘add,’ as soon as you do that, you’re generally adding complexity. One of the design tools that is not used a lot, and this is something I try to help clients with is, what can we take away? If we're not going to cut it out entirely, can we move this feature, maybe this comparison to a different level of detail? Maybe it’s hidden behind a button click, or it’s not the default. But removing some stuff is a way to obviously simplify as well, especially if you do need to add new things. Your only weapon is not the pencil, you’ve got the eraser as well in the battle so to speak. Julien: I couldn’t agree more. On Next Big Sound we have this concept of artist stages. It’s a way for us to put artist into buckets and by looking at their social instrument data. It goes from undiscovered to epic. We do that by looking at all of the data we have and looking at it in context. I don’t have the numbers right now because they update on a daily basis but every artist starts undiscovered. For instance, as they get 1000 Facebook likes, maybe they’re going to get to a promising stage. We have all of these thresholds moving everyday looking at trends among social services. But what is interesting is that for instance, for a booker, a booker doesn’t need to look at the exact number of Twitter followers for an artist. He needs to know that he’s booking for a midsized venue in the city he’s in and he’s probably going to be looking for promising to established artists and not looking for the mainstream to epic artists. It’s always about figuring a way to use the numbers to tell the story. Brian: I’m totally selfishly asking for myself here, but I was immediately curious. I live in Cambridge which is in the Boston area, and I am curious who are the big artists in our area and what is the concentration? I’m in a niche. I’m more in the performing arts market, in the jazz, in world music, and classical music but I’m just curious. Is there a way to look at it by the city and know what your artist community looks like? You guys do anything like that? Julien: We don’t currently. But I think YouTube has actually a C-level chart available. It’s not part of something we do because I think the users it would benefit are not the users we specifically try to work on new features. It’s more something for bookers than artists ,specifically ,but it’s exactly the type of thing that we need to think about when we prioritize new features. Brian: I’m curious just because the topic’s fairly hot. Everybody is trying to do machine learning projects these days. I don’t like the term AI because it tends to be a little bit overloaded but are you guys using machine learning to accomplish any particular problems or add any new value to your service right now? Is that on your horizon? Julien: How do you think about machine learning? Brian: A lot of times I associate it with predictive analytics or understanding where you might be running instead of just using statistics. I don’t know what kind of data you might have for your learning that you can feed in but maybe there’s aspects about artists that can predict. Especially, I would think like in the pop music world where there tends to be more commercialization of the music, I would say, where it’s like we need a two-minute dance track at this tempo specifically because DJs are going to play it. It’s a very commercial thing. It’s very different than what I’m used to. So I’m curious if there’s a way to predict out how an artist may do or what kinds of tracks are performing well. Like these tempo songs, we predict over the next six months that tech house music at 160 beats for a minute is going to do really well based on the trending. I don’t know. I’m throwing stuff out there. The goal, obviously, is not to try to use like, “Oh Home Depot has this new hammer, let’s run out and get it. We don’t even know what it’s for but everyone else is buying it.” That’s how I joke about machine learning. It’s like you need to have a problem that necessitates that particular tool. I don’t ask such that, “Oh there should be some.” I’m more curious as to whether or not it’s a tool that you guys are leveraging at this time. Julien: The Next Big Sound team doesn’t worked on features following the musical aspects of things. We really are focused on the user data. Brian: Engagement and social. Julien: Engagement data mostly, yes. But at the same time, I’m sure teams have worked on this because of the way that genome works. We have a lot of data about the way songs are made. Regarding machine learning, on the Next Big Song team, we actually have something that is called the prediction chart. You said predictions. We have this chart that is available every week. Basically, it really goes back to having data for a long time. The fact that we’ve had data since 2009, we’ve been able to see artists actually get from starting to charting on the Billboard 200. By having all of these data, we’ve been able to see some trends, some things that usually happen for artists at specific times in their career up until they get into the Billboard 200. We actually do have some algorithms that allow us to apply this learning to all of the artists on Next Big Sound right now and have a list every week of artist that we believe are most likely to appear on the Billboard 200 chart next year. Brian: I see. Got it. Do you track your accuracy rate on that internally and change it over time? Do you adjust the model? Julien: Yeah, we do. Brian: Cool That’s really neat. Tell me, this chat has been super fun. I’ve selfishly got a little indulgent because being a musician, it’s fun to talk about these two worlds that I’m really passionate about so I could go on forever with you about this. But I’m curious. Do you have any advice for other product managers or analytics practitioners about how to design good data products and services? How to make either your own organization happy or your customers happy? Do you have any advice to them? Julien: Yeah, of course. I guess it’s all about asking questions, honestly. What is very good with working at Next Big Sound is that it all started in 2009. Maybe actually I can go back and tell you the story about how it started and why it’s so different today. It started in 2009. It was actually a project, a university project by the three co-founders. Basically, they were wondering about one thing. How many plays does a major artist get on the biggest music platform in the world? At that time, it was MySpace. The artist they picked was Akon. Basically, they just built a crawler, went to bed, woke up, and discovered that an artist like Akon was getting 500,000 plays on MySpace in one night in 2009. The challenge in 2009 was to get the data. That’s why for the most part in Next Big Sound as it started was, I really think a data aggregation tool. Our goal was to get as many sources as possible and just make them easily accessible into the same place. We really are much into the information layer here. We’re giving you all the numbers and you can compare Tumblr to Vimeo, to YouTube, to Twitter, to Facebook, to Vine, to you name it into a table or a graph that you want to. The reality is, today things change. We don't need to fight to get data anymore. We don’t need to hike our way into getting the numbers. Now, data is accessible to everyone in a very easy way. It’s kind of a contract. You, by being an artist, you know you’re going to get access to your Spotify, YouTube, Pandora, Apple Music or any other platform data very easily just by signing up and authenticating as an artist. That’s where our goal changes. Thankfully, we don’t need to convince people to care about data, we know they do already. But now the challenge is different. Now, the challenge is to make them understand what does their data mean and how can they turn it into getting even more data, getting into having even more engagement, and having even more plays. I think that’s something that is very interesting because it really resonates into the question we’ve been asked in the past few years like, “What does my data mean and when should I be looking at my data?” If anything, these two things correlated pretty well. People don’t just want to look at numbers anymore, they want to be able to use numbers to make decisions. That’s the core of what we’re trying to achieve today. We couldn’t be there if we didn’t have users that ask us the right questions. Brian: Cool that’s really insightful. Just to maybe tie it off at the end and maybe you can’t share this but what’s your home run? What is your holy grail look like? Is there a place you guys know you want to get? Maybe it’s the lack of data or you don’t have access to the data in order to provide that service. Do you guys have kind of a picture of where it is you want to take the service? Julien: What is very noble about our goal at Next Big Sound specifically is we’re here to help artists. The North Star would be to make sure that any artist at any time in their career is doing everything they can do to play more shows, to reach to more people, and to make sure their music is heard. Brian: Nice. I guess it’s like you’re already there, just maybe the level of quality and improving that experience over time, that’s your goal. It’s not so much that there’s so much unobtainable thing at this moment. Is that kind of how you see it? Julien: I think the more we don’t feel just a data analytics tool, the more we’re getting to that goal. I really hope we get to a point where people don’t need to be data analysts to look at data. We’re always going to provide a very customizable tool for the data-savvy because they know what they need more than we can ever do it for them. We want to make sure that for everyone else, we can just make it very easy and as simple as a click for them to do something that’s going to impact them positively. Brian: Cool, man. This has been really exciting to have you on the show. Julien, can you tell the listeners where can they find you on the interwebs? Are you on Twitter or LinkedIn? How do they find you? Julien: For sure. @julienbenatar on Twitter, nextbigsound.com is free for everyone. Actually, we made our data public recently, so if you ever want to learn more about what we do, please check it out. We try to post on our blog about what we learn through data science, through design, and share more about why we build what we build. I recommend to just check blog and do some commitment to learn more about what we do. Brian: I definitely recommend people check out the site. The fun thing is again, as you said, it’s public. If there’s a band you like or whatever, you can type in any group that you like to listen to and you can get access to those insights. Just kind of get a flavor of what the service does. I’ll put those links in the show notes as well as the data pyramid. Julien, cool. Thanks for coming on. Is there anything else do you like to add before we wrap it up? Julien: No, thank you so much. I love reading your newsletters and I’m very happy to be here. Brian: Cool. Thank you so much. Let’s do it again. Julien: Cool. Brian: Cool. Thank you. We hope you enjoyed this episode of Experiencing Data with Brian O’Neill. If you did enjoy it, please consider sharing it with #experiencingdata. To get future podcast updates or to subscribe to Brian’s mailing list where he shares his insights on designing valuable enterprise data products and applications, visit designingforanalytics.com/podcast. Never forget to look up the online HTML CheatSheet when you forget how to write an image, a table or an iframe or any other tag in HTML!

We’re back with a special music-related analytics episode! Following Next Big Sound’s acquisition by Pandora, Julien Benatar moved from engineering into product management and is now responsible for the company’s analytics applications in the Creator Tools division. He and his team of engineers, data scientists and designers provide insights on how artists are performing on Pandora and how they can effectively grow their audience. This was a particularly fun interview for me since I have music playing on Pandora and occasionally use Next Big Sound’s analytics myself. Julien and I discussed: How Julien’s team accounts for designing for a huge range of customers (artists) that have wildly different popularity, song plays, and followers How the service generates benchmark values in order to make analytics more useful to artists How email notifications can be useful or counter-productive in analytics services How Julien thinks about the Data Pyramid when building out their platform Having a “North Star” and driving analytics toward customer action The types of predictive analytics Next Big Sound is doing Resources and Links: Julien Benatar on Twitter Next Big Sound website Next Big Sound blog The Data Pyramid model Quotes from Julien Benatar “I really hope we get to a point where people don’t need to be data analysts to look at data.” “People don’t just want to look at numbers anymore, they want to be able to use numbers to make decisions.” “One of our goals was to basically check every artist in the world and give them access to these tools and by checking millions of artists, it allows us to do some very good and very specific benchmarks” “The way it works is you can thumb up or thumb down songs. If you thumb up a song, you’re giving us a signal that this is something that you like and something you want to listen to more. That’s data that we give back to artists.” “I think the great thing today is that, compared to when Next Big Sound started in 2009, we don’t need to make a point for people to care about data. Everyone cares about data today.” Episode Transcript Brian: I’m really excited today for this episode. We have Julien Benatar on the show and he’s from a company that I’m sure a lot of people here know. You probably have had headphones on at your desk, at home, or wherever you are listening to Pandora for music. Julien , correct me if I’m wrong, you were the product manager for artist tools and insights at Next Big Sound, which is a type of data product that provides information on music listening stats to, I assume, artists’ labels as well to help them understand where their fans are and social media engagement. I love this topic. I’m also a musician, I have a profile on Next Big Sound and I feel music’s a fun way to talk about analytics and design as well because everybody can relate to the content and the domain. Welcome to the show. Did I get all that correct? Julien: Yeah, it was perfect. Brian: Cool. Tell us a little about your background. You’re from France originally? Julien: Yes, exactly. I grew up next to Paris, in Versailles more specifically, and moved to New York in 2014 to join Next Big Sound. Brian: Cool, nice. You’ve been there for about four years, something like that. You have a software engineering background and then now you’re on the product side, is that right? Julien: Exactly yes. I joined the company back when we were a startup. Software engineering was perfect, there was so much to do. To our move to Pandora, I moved to a product manager role around a year ago. Brian: Next Big Sound was independent and then they were acquired by Pandora. I assume there is good stuff about your data. Why did Pandora acquire you and how did they see you guys improving their service? Julien: We got acquired in 2015. The thing is, Next Big Sound was already really involved in the music industry. We already had clients like the three major labels and a lot of artists were using us to get access to their social data. I think it was a very natural move for Pandora as they wanted to get closer to creators and provide better analytics tools. Brian: For people that aren’t on the service, I always like to know who are the actual end users, the people logging in, not necessarily the management, but who sits down and what are some of the things that they would do? Who would log in to Next Big Sound and why? Julien: Honestly, it’s really anyone having any involvement into the music industry, so that can be an artist, obviously, try looking to try their socials and their audience on Pandora. But you can also be a booker trying to book artists in their town. We have a product that can really be used by many different user personas. But our core right now is really artists and labels, having contents on Pandora and trying to tell them the most compelling story about what they’re doing on the platform. Brian: When you think about designs, it’s hard to design and we talk about this on the mailing list sometimes but it’s really hard to design one great thing that’s perfect for everybody so usually you have to make some choices. Do you guys favor the artist, or the label, or as you call them,the bookers or whom I know as presenters,in the performing arts industry? Do you have a sweet spot, like you favor one of those in terms of experience? Julien: I think it’s something we’re moving towards, but it hasn’t always been this way. Like I told you, we used to be a startup or grow us to make a product that could work for as many people as possible. What is funny is we used to have an entity on Next Big Sound called Next Big Book where we used to provide the same type of service for the book industry. If anything, it’s been great to join Pandora because then we could really refocus on creators and it really allowed us to, I believe, create much better and more targeted analytics tools to really fulfill needs for specific people like artists and labels. Brian: I would assume individual artists are your biggest audience or is it really heavily used by the labels or who tends to… Julien: I think it’s pretty much the same honestly. I think the great thing today is that, compared to when Next Big Sound started in 2009, we don’t need to make a point for people to care about data. Everyone cares about data today. I think that everyone has reasons to look at their dashboards and especially for a platform like Pandora with millions of users every month. Our goal is really just telling them a story about what does it mean to be spinning on the platform and the opportunities it opens. Brian: You talked about opportunities, do you have any stories about a particular artist or a label that may have learned something from your data and maybe they wrote to you or you found out like in an interview how they reacted like, “Hey, we changed our tool routing,” or, “Hey, we decided to focus on this area instead of that area.” Do you know anything about how it’s been put into use in the wild? Julien: Yeah, it’s used for so many different reasons. For the people who don’t use Pandora, something I really like about the platform is it’s really about quality. As you use Pandora, you have the opportunity to thumb up or thumb down songs and as you do, you’re going to get recommended more songs like the ones you like. It’s really about making sure that you get the best songs at all times. The reality then is that for artists, their top songs on Pandora can be pretty different than their top songs on other platforms because sometimes their friends are going to be just reacting more to some part of their catalog than another one. I’ve heard many times of artists changing their playlists in looking at which songs where their fans thumbing up the most on Pandora. Brian: Could you go through that again? How would they adjust their playlist? Julien: Usually, people use Pandora as a radio service. While we already have internet today, most people are listening to the radio because they’re usually are very targeted and it just works really well. The way it works is you can thumb up or thumb down songs. If you thumb up a song, you’re giving us a signal that this is something that you like and something you want to listen to more. That’s data that we give back to artists. We tell them, “This are your most thumbed songs on Pandora. These are the songs that people engage with the most on the platform.” Looking at this data, you can actually inform them songs that they believe they should be playing more on the store. Brian: I see. A lot of it has to do with the favoriting aspect to give them idea what’s resonating with their audiences. Julien: Qualitative feedback, yes. Brian: Got it. Actually, it’s funny you mentioned the qualitative feedback. In preparation for this, I was reading an article that you guys put out back in March about a new feature called weekly performance insights, which is really cool and this actually reminds me of something that I talked about in the Designing for Analytics mailing list, which is the act of providing qualitative guides with your analytics. A lot of times they analyze for turnout quantitative data and whenever there’s an opportunity to put stuff into context or provide qualifiers, I think that’s a really good thing and you guys look like you’ve have done some really nice things here. I’ll paraphrase it and then you can jump in and maybe give us some backstory on it. One of the things that I think is really cool is there’re concepts of normalcy in here so that, if I’m an artist and I look at my numbers, I have an idea. For your Twitter mentions, for example, you say, “For artists with 26,000 followers, we expect you to get around 44 mentions.” When you show me that I have 146 mentions, I can tell that I’m substantially higher than what my social group would be. I think that’s a really fantastic concept that people not in music could try to apply as well which is, are there normalcy bans where you’d want to sit? Is there some other type of group, maybe, an industry, or apparent group, or another business unit, whatever it may be to provide some context for what these out of the blue numbers mean that don’t have any context? How did you guys come up with that and can you tell us a bit about the design process of going from maybe just showing, “You’re at 826 apples,” as compared to what? How did you move from just a number into this these kind of logical groupings where you provide the comparisons? Julien: I think what’s really fascinating is, we really live in an age of data. As an artist, you need to be on social media for the most part. There still a lot of artists I listen to but just decide not to. It’s part of things but at the same time, real big success in the music industry didn’t change. It’s still being on the Billboard chart, getting a Grammy and all these things. But as we see this, we have millions of artists looking at their data every day and just are not able to understand, like is it good or is it not good. Everyone starts at zero. We have a strong belief that data can only be useful when put in context. Looking at the number on its own can give you a sense of how things are doing but that can also be dismissive. An example is, a very common way to look at data is to look at a number and look at the percent changing comparison to the previous week. You’ve got a bunch of tables and you look at, am I growing or am I not growing. The reality is it’s actually impossible to always have a positive percent change. There’s no artist in the world that always does better week by week. Even Beyonce, I can assure you that the week she released Lemonade, she had more engagement on Twitter than the week after. With that in mind, we really try to give a way for artists to understand how are they doing for who they are and where they are currently in their career. Next Big Sound started in 2009. One of our goals was to basically check every artist in the world and give them access to these tools and by checking millions of artists, it allows us to do some very good and very specific benchmarks. For an artist, like the example you said, for instance an artist with a thousand Twitter mentions in a week, is it good or bad in comparison to their audience size? This feature comes because that’s just the question we’re asked. Artists want to know is it any good? What does this number actually mean for me? That’s why we really wanted to, in some ways, get out of being a content aggregator platform and really be a data analytics platform. How can we actually give information that can help artist make better decisions? Brian: I remember the first time I got what I would call an anomaly detection email from your service and it was about some spike in YouTube views or something like that. I thought it’s fantastic in two reasons. First of all, you identify an anomalous change and I think in this case it’s a positive anomalous change. That tells me that I should log in the tool. Secondly, you proactively delivered that to me. On the Designing for Analytics mailing list, we talk about is that user experience does not necessarily live inside your web browser interface or your hard client or whatever you’re using to show your analytics. Email and notifications are a big part of that. Can you tell me about how you guys also arrived at when you pushed these things out and maybe talk about this little anomaly detection service that you have? Julien: It all started when we got acquired by Pandora. We decided to just invite a bunch of users and just talk to them, understand how to use our product and what did they think about it. We had artists, managers, and label people come over and we just talk to them and basically they all said, “We love it.” But then, by looking at their actual usage, they don’t use it that much. I guess one of their questions was when should I be looking at my data? Everyone is very busy. As you’re an artist, you need to perform, you need to write music, you need to engage with your fans and same goes with everyone. When should I look at data? The reality is by being a data company, we do get all the data, we have all the numbers. We have ways to know when things are supposed to be known, when artists should be acting on something. We just turn this into this email notifications. Anytime we notice that an artist is doing better than expected, we just let them know right away. Brian: That’s great. Do you do it on the opposite end too? If there’s an unexpected drop or maybe like, “Oh, you put a new track out and your socials dropped,” or something like that, do you look at the negative side too or do you tend to only promote the positive changes? Julien: As far as pushes, we decided to only do push for positive. But as you mentioned weekly performance, weekly performance can give you some negative insights, like, “You’re not doing as well as artists with the same size of audience as yours.” The reason we didn’t do it for our notification is, anomalies are really hard to completely control. A reason, for instance, is Twitter removing bots. Basically, every single artist would have had an email telling them, “You lost Twitter followers this week.” It was a lot of work to really tune our anomaly factor to actually only send emails when something legitimate happens. That’s the reason we only decided so far to do it for positive but we actually have been thinking about doing the same for negative but that’s another type of work. Brian: Yeah, you’re right. You have to mature these things over time. You don’t want to be a noise generator. Julien: Exactly. Brian: Too many, then people start to ignore you. I’ve seen that with other data products I’ve worked on which just have really dumb alerting mechanisms that are very binary or they’re set at a hard threshold and just shootout noise and people just tune it out. Julien: I’m glad you mentioned this because this feature was in beta for a year for that specific reason. Brian: Got it. Julien: We had to learn the hard way. We had like a hundred beta users. We’ve got way too many emails because anytime there were an anomaly anywhere, they would just get an email. For the most part, it was things that were supposed to help them. If a notification becomes noise, then that’s absolutely against its purpose. Brian: I don’t know if everybody knows how the music business works, at least from the popular music side, but just to summarize. You have individual artists that are actually performers. They may or may not have an artist manager which takes care of their business affairs, represents them like negotiations with people that book shows. Then you have labels which are sort of like an artist manager except they’re really focused on the recording assets that the artist makes and they actually tend to own the recordings outright at the beginning and then over time, the artist may recoup through sales they make it the ownership act and the sound recordings they make. Of those kinds of three major groups, is there a one that’s particularly hungry or you’re the squeaky wheel that is most interested in what you’re doing? Julien: I really think that into these three groups, we have a subset of users that are really into the data and into the actionability of it. I don’t think it’s one specific group of user. It could be all around the industry like we have the data-savvy, they really want to know. We have some users that actually would rather get more notifications even if they need to on their end to figure what is right from what is wrong. But since we have such a wide user base of different type of people, we decided to go on the conservative side and make sure to only share things that we thoroughly validated through all of our filters. Brian: I assume that your group reports into some division of Pandora, I’m not sure of that. Are you reporting into a technology, like an IT, or a business unit, or marketing? Where do you guys fit in the Pandora world? Julien: We’re part of the creator’s tools. I don’t really have a perfect answer to this. Brian: Okay. I guess my main question being, because when we talk about designing services, we talk about both user experience, which is the end user thing and about business success or organization success. I’m curious, how does Pandora measure that Next Big Sound as delivering value? I can understand, I’m sure our artist can understand how the artists value it through understanding how is my music moving my audiences, et cetera. Is there a way that Pandora looks at it? Are they interested in just time spent? The analytics on the analytics, so to speak, is what I’m asking about. How do you guys look at it like, “Hey, this is really doing a good job,” or whatever? Do you know how that’s looked at? Julien: To be honest, I think you said it right. Our goal is to help artists make their decisions through data and having artists use the platform is currently the way Pandora sees us doing a good job. Actually, it hasn’t changed that much since our acquisition. One of our main KPI for the past and couple of years is something I would call insights consumes. Just making sure that our users, artists, anyone using Next Big Sound are consuming data. That can be them logging into the website or that can be them opening one of our notifications. But so far that was our main KPI. We’re trying to work on some more targeted KPI, potentially like actions taken, that would be the North Star, but we’re still working on how to do that right. Brian: Do you guys facilitate actions, so to speak, directly in the tool or are there things people can do with those actions really take place outside of the context of Next Big Sound? Julien: There are actions that artists can take to the other creator’s tools provided by Pandora. For instance, artists have the ability to send audio messages to anyone listening to them. If they go on tour into the US, they can have targeted messages in every single song they’re going to play. If anyone listens to them there, they can just click and buy a ticket. We’re working to make sure that artists are aware of these tools because they are free and they’re generally helping them grow at their careers. But regarding external actions, so far we don’t have any one-click way to tweet at the right time to the right people or with the right content or anything like this. Brian: Sure and that’s understood. Not every analytics product is going to have a direct actionable insight that comes right out of it. You guys may be feeling a longer term picture about trending and maybe for a certain artist to get an idea if they’re releasing music fairly frequently, what stuff is working and resonating, and what stuff is not. I can understand that. There may not be a button to click as a result immediately. Julien: That’s the goal though. Everything we do right now is going towards this objective. Maybe I can tell you a little about the way we think about data and that can give more sense to it. In order to work on any new feature, we follow this concept called the data pyramid. It’s something that you can Google. There’s a Wikipedia page for it. Let me explain to you how it works. The data pyramid, it’s a pyramid formed of four layers. It could be upon each other and each representing an exquisitely useful application of data. At the bottom of the pyramid we have the data layer. Any sort of data that we may have. For our case, Android data, Twitter, Facebook just getting the numbers, getting the raw data. On top of it, we have the information layer. The information layer is going to be ways you have to visualize this data. I guess it’s like the very broad sense of analytics. We’re going to give you tables, graphs, pie charts, you name it. We’re giving you ways to craft stories about this data but it’s on you to figure it out. Then on top of it we have what we call the knowledge layer. That’s where things start to get interesting. The knowledge layer is the contextual part of it. It’s like, “What do this number actually mean?” It has industry expertise. For instance, the way we’re going to work about it for musicians and their true data may be different than any other industry. The knowledge layer goes like a weekly performance. It’s a perfect answer to it. It’s what does it mean for me as a musician with a hundred fans to get two mentions this week. Same for notifications. It’s telling you that you should be looking at your data right now because something is happening. That’s how we get to the North Star and the last part of the data pyramid which is intelligence. The goal of intelligence is actionability. Now that I get to understand what does this number mean to the specific context, what should I be doing? Following your question, everything we’re trying to do here is to get to a point where we can just send an email to an artist and tell them, “Hey, you should be doing this right now because, with all the data that we have, we believe that this is going to have the highest impact for you.” Brian: It‘s really fascinating that you just outlined this data pyramid. I actually haven’t heard of this before. It made me think of one of the kind of, it’s not a joke but in the music community, I’m also a composer and when we write stuff, the kind of running joke is like nothing is new. Your ideas for this new song or this new melody I’m composing, it probably came before you. You heard it there before. I wrote a post on my list that was pretty much exactly the same thing except the knowledge layer. I was calling that insight. Data have been this raw format and information being the first human-readable format that’s like say going from raw data to a chart, a histogram. Now I have a line on a chart and then the insight layer being, I have a line on the chart and another line comparing it to like you said, average, or my social group, or a parent group, or some taxonomy, or an index. Then the action or the prescription for what to do or the prediction those that kind of lead you in about action which would be that fourth state. You’re like, “Oh, is this really a new concept?” It’s like, “Nope. Someone else already thought of that.” I totally want to go read about this data pyramid. Julien: That’s amazing. Brian: I’ll find that link to the data pyramid and I’ll put that in the show notes for sure. I thought that was really funny. Julien: It’s funny that you called it insight because that’s the way we call a lot of our features are working out. The way we define insight is bite-size, noteworthy, sharable content. How can we get into the noise of all of the data that only gives you exactly what you should be looking at. That’s how we got into notification and weekly performances. This is the one thing you should be looking at. Brian: I understand what you’re getting at there. The insights are, like you said, bite-size chunks of interesting stats that someone can put some kind of context around. That’s great and it’s good. One of the things I liked, too, that you talked about was you said, “Oh we got like a hundred users, like a beta group and that kind of inspired some of this.” Your product response to how do we help people know when to come and look at our service. I think this is really good because one of the problems that I see with clients and people on the list, I think is low engagement. This is especially true for internal analytics companies. Low engagement can be a symptom of a difficult product, it doesn’t provide the right information at the right time, it may not have a lot of utility, or it’s a resistance to change. People have done something the old way and they don’t want to do it the new way. One of the recipes you can follow if you’re trying to do a redesign or increase engagement is to involve the people that are going to use the service in the design process, both the stakeholders as well as the end customers. This is especially true again for the internal analytics people. Your customers or other employees and your colleagues. By engaging them in the design process, they’re much more likely to want to change whatever they’re doing now. I loved how you guys did some research. Now I want to ask, do you frequently do either usability testing or interviews? Is that an ongoing thing at your company or is it really just in front of a big feature release or something like that? How do you guys do this research? Can you tell me about that? Julien: Of course. It’s consent. We haven’t released any major feature without doing some heavy user testing. I’m very lucky to be working with two designers, Justin and Anabelle who are very user-focused. Honestly, if you come to our office, at least every week we’re going to have some user interview and just talking to them, showing them prototypes, and just see how do they play with it. Brian: So you’re doing a lot of testing it sounds like. That’s fantastic. Julien: At the same time it’s always to find the right balance because you could be overtesting things too. We really are focusing on user testing for new things and make sure that the future that we are working on actually answers their user story that we intended. Brian: I don’t know how involved you get participating in these, but do you have any interesting stories or anecdotes that you got from one of those that you could share? Julien: Let me think. I do participate into a lot of them but I’m not sure I have an example right now. Brian: Are most of the people you interview, are they current users of Next Big Sound or do you tend to focus on maybe artists that haven’t experienced the service yet or you mix it up? Julien: We mix it up. We mostly engage with users that we already have but then we can decide to go with users that haven’t used the platform for a while, or more active users if you want to understand how we’re useful into their day to day. What I would say is that, surprisingly, it’s very easy to get users to chat about their experience with the product. I didn’t assume that we would get so many responses when we tried to have people come over or just hop on the zoom to check a new feature. Brian: I’m glad you actually mentioned that because I think in some places, recruiting is perceived to be difficult and it probably isn’t. Maybe you haven’t done it before but as I tell a lot of my clients, a lot of people love to have someone listen to them talk, tell them all about their life and what’s wrong with it, and how it could be better with their tools. They love having someone listen to them and especially if they know that their feedback is going to influence a tool or a service that they’re using. They tend to be pretty engaged with it. I find it’s really rare that I do an interview with a client’s customer and they don’t want to be included in the future round like, “Hey, when we redesign the service, can we come back to you and show you what we’ve done?” “Oh, I love to do that!” Everybody wants to get engaged with it. There are places where recruiting can be difficult when it’s hard to access the users, some of the enterprise software space that can be an issue sometimes. But generally, if you can get access to them, they tend to be pretty willing to participate. I’m glad you mentioned that. Julien: I think the great part about testing with current users on the platform is to actually show them prototypes with real data, not just show them an abstract idea that we want to work on. As soon as they can see what we’re working on apply to their own career as musicians, for instance, that can lead to fascinating discussions. Brian: You made a really good point on the real data thing. I remember as far back as 10 years ago or whenever, I use to work at Fidelity Investments, we would see this issue when we’re working on the retail site for investors. When you show a portfolio that, for example, has Apple stock trading at $22 in it, you’re not really there to test what is the price of Apple stock but you might be testing something entirely different and the customer cannot bear what is going on? They’re so stuck on this thing. It’s all fake seed data in the prototype. The story here being if you’re a listener, when you test it’s important to have at least realistic data. You don’t want to have noise in the test or whatever your studying or else you can end up on this tangent. Try to make the numbers looks somewhat realistic if you’re using quantitative data. In some cases, people can be taught to roleplay. Pretend you’re Drake or pretend you’re some big artist and then they can get their head around why they have billions of streams instead of thousands which they’re used to. Julien: Absolutely. That also helps us just build better products because the reality is we have a lot of artists with maybe 10 plays in a month. As we build visualizations like something that we built a line of looking at Drake’s data, it’s not going to work as intended for a smaller artist sometimes. Having real data involved as soon as possible into the design process has been such a game changer for us. We really have a multidisciplinary team involved into the research and design of everything we do. I’m working with a data scientist, data engineer, a web engineer, and designer on a daily basis. Obviously, we all have our things to do. But as we get into creating something new, we just make sure to have someone helping us get the real data, interview the right user, and just create prototypes as soon as possible. Working with prototypes is essential into building useful data analytics tools. Brian: Yes, you do learn a lot more with a working prototype. It’s not to say you can’t test with lower fidelity goods, especially early on but for a service like yours when the range of possible use both the personas and also you’ve got the Drakes of the world, big major label artist and then down to really small independents, it’s really important to have an idea how your charts are going to scale, and what’s going to happen with data. Even just small stuff like how many decimal points should you be showing on a mobile device, some of the numbers might cram up. Julien: Exactly. Brian: All this stuff that you never think, if you only look at one version of everything, you can end up with a mess. I’m glad that you brought that up. Julien: I couldn’t say better. The decimal is actually something that we’ve had to discover through real data. Brian: To all of you in the technical people out there, I will say this. If I’ve seen one trend with engineers, is they love precision and there’s a lot of times when there’s very unnecessary precision being added to numbers. Such as charts and histograms. Histograms are usually about the trend, they’re not about identifying what was the precise value on this date at this time. It’s about the change over time. Showing what’s my portfolio worth down to three digits of micro-cents or something like that is just unnecessary detail. You can probably just round up to the dollar or even hundreds of dollars or even thousands of dollars in some cases. It actually is worse. The reason it’s worse is that adds unnecessary noise to the interface, you’re providing all these inks that someone has to mentally process, and it’s actually not really meaningful ink because the change is what’s important. Think about precision when you’re printing values. Julien: This concept of noise is so essential today for any data analytics tools. There is so much data today. There is data for everything. I think it’s our responsibility as a data analytics company to make sure what are we actually trying to help our user with this data set is not just about adding new metrics. Adding new metrics usually is just going to add noise and not be helpful in comparison to fairing what do they need to make the right decision. Brian: Right. Complexity obviously goes up. The single verb, ‘add,’ as soon as you do that, you’re generally adding complexity. One of the design tools that is not used a lot, and this is something I try to help clients with is, what can we take away? If we’re not going to cut it out entirely, can we move this feature, maybe this comparison to a different level of detail? Maybe it’s hidden behind a button click, or it’s not the default. But removing some stuff is a way to obviously simplify as well, especially if you do need to add new things. Your only weapon is not the pencil, you’ve got the eraser as well in the battle so to speak. Julien: I couldn’t agree more. On Next Big Sound we have this concept of artist stages. It’s a way for us to put artist into buckets and by looking at their social instrument data. It goes from undiscovered to epic. We do that by looking at all of the data we have and looking at it in context. I don’t have the numbers right now because they update on a daily basis but every artist starts undiscovered. For instance, as they get 1000 Facebook likes, maybe they’re going to get to a promising stage. We have all of these thresholds moving everyday looking at trends among social services. But what is interesting is that for instance, for a booker, a booker doesn’t need to look at the exact number of Twitter followers for an artist. He needs to know that he’s booking for a midsized venue in the city he’s in and he’s probably going to be looking for promising to established artists and not looking for the mainstream to epic artists. It’s always about figuring a way to use the numbers to tell the story. Brian: I’m totally selfishly asking for myself here, but I was immediately curious. I live in Cambridge which is in the Boston area, and I am curious who are the big artists in our area and what is the concentration? I’m in a niche. I’m more in the performing arts market, in the jazz, in world music, and classical music but I’m just curious. Is there a way to look at it by the city and know what your artist community looks like? You guys do anything like that? Julien: We don’t currently. But I think YouTube has actually a C-level chart available. It’s not part of something we do because I think the users it would benefit are not the users we specifically try to work on new features. It’s more something for bookers than artists ,specifically ,but it’s exactly the type of thing that we need to think about when we prioritize new features. Brian: I’m curious just because the topic’s fairly hot. Everybody is trying to do machine learning projects these days. I don’t like the term AI because it tends to be a little bit overloaded but are you guys using machine learning to accomplish any particular problems or add any new value to your service right now? Is that on your horizon? Julien: How do you think about machine learning? Brian: A lot of times I associate it with predictive analytics or understanding where you might be running instead of just using statistics. I don’t know what kind of data you might have for your learning that you can feed in but maybe there’s aspects about artists that can predict. Especially, I would think like in the pop music world where there tends to be more commercialization of the music, I would say, where it’s like we need a two-minute dance track at this tempo specifically because DJs are going to play it. It’s a very commercial thing. It’s very different than what I’m used to. So I’m curious if there’s a way to predict out how an artist may do or what kinds of tracks are performing well. Like these tempo songs, we predict over the next six months that tech house music at 160 beats for a minute is going to do really well based on the trending. I don’t know. I’m throwing stuff out there. The goal, obviously, is not to try to use like, “Oh Home Depot has this new hammer, let’s run out and get it. We don’t even know what it’s for but everyone else is buying it.” That’s how I joke about machine learning. It’s like you need to have a problem that necessitates that particular tool. I don’t ask such that, “Oh there should be some.” I’m more curious as to whether or not it’s a tool that you guys are leveraging at this time. Julien: The Next Big Sound team doesn’t worked on features following the musical aspects of things. We really are focused on the user data. Brian: Engagement and social. Julien: Engagement data mostly, yes. But at the same time, I’m sure teams have worked on this because of the way that genome works. We have a lot of data about the way songs are made. Regarding machine learning, on the Next Big Song team, we actually have something that is called the prediction chart. You said predictions. We have this chart that is available every week. Basically, it really goes back to having data for a long time. The fact that we’ve had data since 2009, we’ve been able to see artists actually get from starting to charting on the Billboard 200. By having all of these data, we’ve been able to see some trends, some things that usually happen for artists at specific times in their career up until they get into the Billboard 200. We actually do have some algorithms that allow us to apply this learning to all of the artists on Next Big Sound right now and have a list every week of artist that we believe are most likely to appear on the Billboard 200 chart next year. Brian: I see. Got it. Do you track your accuracy rate on that internally and change it over time? Do you adjust the model? Julien: Yeah, we do. Brian: Cool That’s really neat. Tell me, this chat has been super fun. I’ve selfishly got a little indulgent because being a musician, it’s fun to talk about these two worlds that I’m really passionate about so I could go on forever with you about this. But I’m curious. Do you have any advice for other product managers or analytics practitioners about how to design good data products and services? How to make either your own organization happy or your customers happy? Do you have any advice to them? Julien: Yeah, of course. I guess it’s all about asking questions, honestly. What is very good with working at Next Big Sound is that it all started in 2009. Maybe actually I can go back and tell you the story about how it started and why it’s so different today. It started in 2009. It was actually a project, a university project by the three co-founders. Basically, they were wondering about one thing. How many plays does a major artist get on the biggest music platform in the world? At that time, it was MySpace. The artist they picked was Akon. Basically, they just built a crawler, went to bed, woke up, and discovered that an artist like Akon was getting 500,000 plays on MySpace in one night in 2009. The challenge in 2009 was to get the data. That’s why for the most part in Next Big Sound as it started was, I really think a data aggregation tool. Our goal was to get as many sources as possible and just make them easily accessible into the same place. We really are much into the information layer here. We’re giving you all the numbers and you can compare Tumblr to Vimeo, to YouTube, to Twitter, to Facebook, to Vine, to you name it into a table or a graph that you want to. The reality is, today things change. We don’t need to fight to get data anymore. We don’t need to hike our way into getting the numbers. Now, data is accessible to everyone in a very easy way. It’s kind of a contract. You, by being an artist, you know you’re going to get access to your Spotify, YouTube, Pandora, Apple Music or any other platform data very easily just by signing up and authenticating as an artist. That’s where our goal changes. Thankfully, we don’t need to convince people to care about data, we know they do already. But now the challenge is different. Now, the challenge is to make them understand what does their data mean and how can they turn it into getting even more data, getting into having even more engagement, and having even more plays. I think that’s something that is very interesting because it really resonates into the question we’ve been asked in the past few years like, “What does my data mean and when should I be looking at my data?” If anything, these two things correlated pretty well. People don’t just want to look at numbers anymore, they want to be able to use numbers to make decisions. That’s the core of what we’re trying to achieve today. We couldn’t be there if we didn’t have users that ask us the right questions. Brian: Cool that’s really insightful. Just to maybe tie it off at the end and maybe you can’t share this but what’s your home run? What is your holy grail look like? Is there a place you guys know you want to get? Maybe it’s the lack of data or you don’t have access to the data in order to provide that service. Do you guys have kind of a picture of where it is you want to take the service? Julien: What is very noble about our goal at Next Big Sound specifically is we’re here to help artists. The North Star would be to make sure that any artist at any time in their career is doing everything they can do to play more shows, to reach to more people, and to make sure their music is heard. Brian: Nice. I guess it’s like you’re already there, just maybe the level of quality and improving that experience over time, that’s your goal. It’s not so much that there’s so much unobtainable thing at this moment. Is that kind of how you see it? Julien: I think the more we don’t feel just a data analytics tool, the more we’re getting to that goal. I really hope we get to a point where people don’t need to be data analysts to look at data. We’re always going to provide a very customizable tool for the data-savvy because they know what they need more than we can ever do it for them. We want to make sure that for everyone else, we can just make it very easy and as simple as a click for them to do something that’s going to impact them positively. Brian: Cool, man. This has been really exciting to have you on the show. Julien, can you tell the listeners where can they find you on the interwebs? Are you on Twitter or LinkedIn? How do they find you? Julien: For sure. @julienbenatar on Twitter, nextbigsound.com is free for everyone. Actually, we made our data public recently, so if you ever want to learn more about what we do, please check it out. We try to post on our blog about what we learn through data science, through design, and share more about why we build what we build. I recommend to just check blog and do some commitment to learn more about what we do. Brian: I definitely recommend people check out the site. The fun thing is again, as you said, it’s public. If there’s a band you like or whatever, you can type in any group that you like to listen to and you can get access to those insights. Just kind of get a flavor of what the service does. I’ll put those links in the show notes as well as the data pyramid. Julien, cool. Thanks for coming on. Is there anything else do you like to add before we wrap it up? Julien: No, thank you so much. I love reading your newsletters and I’m very happy to be here. Brian: Cool. Thank you so much. Let’s do it again. Julien: Cool. Brian: Cool. Thank you. We hope you enjoyed this episode of Experiencing Data with Brian O’Neill. If you did enjoy it, please consider sharing it with #experiencingdata. To get future podcast updates or to subscribe to Brian’s mailing list where he shares his insights on designing valuable enterprise data products and applications, visit designingforanalytics.com/podcast.

Vinay Seth Mohta is Managing Director at Manifold, an artificial intelligence engineering services firm with offices in Boston and Silicon Valley. Vinay has helped develop Manifold’s Lean AI process to build useful and accurate machine learning apps for a wide variety of customers. During today’s episode, Vinay and I discuss common misconceptions about machine learning. Some of the other topics we cover are: The 3 buckets of machine learning problems and applications. Differences between traditional product development and developing apps with machine learning from Vinay’s perspective. Vinay’s opinion of what will change as a result of growth in the machine learning industry Maintaining a vision of a product while building it Resources and Links: CRISP-DM Ways to Think About Machine Learning by Benedict Evans The Lean AI process Vinay Seth Mohta on LinkedIn Big Data, Big Dupe: A little book about a big bunch of nonsense by Stephen Few Quotes from Vinay on today’s episode: “We want to try and get them to dial back a little bit on the enthusiasm and the pixie dust aspect of AI and really, start thinking about it, more like a tool, or set of tools, or set of ideas that enable them with some new capabilities.” “We have a process we called Lean AI and what we’ve incorporated into that is this idea of a feedback loop between a business understanding, a data understanding, then doing some engineering – so this is the data engineering, and then doing some modeling and then putting something in front of users.” “Usually, team members who have domain knowledge [also] have pretty good intuition of what the data should show. And that is a good way to normalize everybody’s expectations.” “You can really bring in some of the intuition that [clients] already have around their data and bring that into the conversation and that becomes an almost shared decision about what to do [with the data].” Episode Transcript Brian: We got Vinay Seth Mohta on the show today. I’m excited to have you here. Vinay’s maybe a little outside the normal parameters of who we planned to have as a guest on designing for analytics but not entirely. He has an engineering background but he’s done a lot of stuff in the product management space as an executive. Correct me if I’m wrong. You’ve been at MathWorks before, you worked on search at Endeca Technologies, and you were at Kayak, which is one of my favorite sites, actually, for booking travels. I’m sure everybody listening has probably touched Kayak at some point, and you were a product manager there, correct? Vinay: That’s correct, yup. Brian: Okay, and I know you did some healthcare. You were a CTO at Kyruus, and now, you are a Managing Director of Data Platforms at manifold.ai, which is a services company that works on data science, machine learning projects, and artificial intelligence. Is that correct? Vinay: That’s right, yup. Brian: Tell us a bit about what Manifold’s doing and what you’re doing there. Vinay: Sure thing. Manifold, as an organization, is an AI consulting company, as you mentioned. More importantly, we unpack AI into […] really focusing on data engineering, data platforms, getting your data ready, and then also building machine learning models and getting all of that put together into either an internal-facing or an external-facing product. So, I’m looking forward to talking a lot more about that. As a company, we largely work with Global 500 organizations and also a spectrum of organizations. Sometimes, I actually get down to fairly early stage startups, where they’re looking for very specialized help in a particular area like Computer Vision, for example. We are largely a team of experienced product folks and engineering folks who’ve worked at both large organizations like Google and Fullcom as well as venture-backed startups like some of the companies you’ve mentioned in my background. Brian: What kinds of projects are people coming to you guys with? Obviously, the whole AI machine learning thing is a pretty active space right now. Everyone’s trying to jump on to that and you got to invest in this. What kinds of projects are you guys doing? Vinay: That’s a great question in terms of the different places and the different motivations people have when they come to us. I try to demystify AI right from the first conversation. Particularly, when we’re talking to executives, which we often do, we want to try and get them to dial back a little bit on the enthusiasm and the pixie dust aspect of AI, and really start thinking about it more like a tool, or set of tools, or set of ideas that really enable them with some new capabilities that also can be thought of, and what I at least see as some more traditional product development spectrum. That’s really what I like to use to frame where customers are when they come to us. By the product development spectrum, I mean there is a starting point of what are the right questions to ask and what are the right types of business strategy questions I should think about, go to market-type questions that might be relevant to consider. Some customers that we’ve talked to are starting all the way back there. There are folks who’ve answered that question for themselves, and now, they’re actually starting to think more actively about what are the product-related areas I want to invest in based on my overall business strategy, what are some of the technology approaches I can take. Machine learning is not always the right answer for a pretty business problem and then really getting into more of the actual design and architecture pieces, and then the hands-on keyboard of actually building, and then deploying data engineering, related data pipelines, or machine learning models, for example. We’ve really seen clients come to us at all different phases. The parts we generally like to focus on start from the product strategy, technology strategy-type conversations, going all the way to building and delivering software and machine learning models that are going to get deployed into production. So, that’s really our zone of focus. Brian: If I could take it back for one second, you said pixie dust and I thought that was funny. But I also get what you’re saying in there. Do you think, as consultants and service providers working in the space—I work on the design side, you’re working a lot on the engineering side and the data science side—are we propagating the wrong thing when we say artificial intelligence and in the analytic space, the term big data? Stephen Few just wrote a book, I think last year, they called Big Data, Big Dupe. I tend to agree with it. There’s a lot of marketing hype surrounding the term. No one can really even define what makes it big versus regular. Do you think we have to stop using that as that? Does it matter what we call it? I feel kind of silly every time I say “AI” because it has such a loaded meaning to people that maybe don’t know as much about it. What do you think about that? Vinay: I generally agree with the spirit of your question, which is, it’s just good to use words all of us understand that map to things that we can touch when we type with our keyboards and things like that. So, it’s very helpful to talk about software engineering as oppose to AI for example or a machine learning model. I’ve also come to terms with the fact that there is a massive marketing wave that is much larger than what you or I choose to do and I think that creates the context that someone is coming into a conversation with us. When they enter the conversation, they already have some of that context. So, what is more important for us to focus on, as opposed to the specific choice of words, is really taking where people are starting in a known context and then walking them into either a world where we feel we can have a much more real conversation with the types of things that are grounded and the actual work that we do. A lot of people are uncomfortable with terms they don’t understand but they believe they’re supposed to continue using them and they should understand them, et cetera. I also find the other thing that’s nice about taking in marketing term but then really almost using it as an educational opportunity when you’re unpacking those terms. People start to feel more comfortable that, “Oh, okay. These things can be mapped into things I understand,” and then being able to use some much more effectively. At least, in our conversations with them, we have a shared vocabulary. I often bucket those conversations under recognizing that this is a marketing term. “Let’s talk about what you mean by AI and let me unpack what I mean and make sure we have a shared vocabulary.” I think there’s some nice ways to undo the marketing hype in more intimate settings, but at a larger scale, I had found that anytime I try to fight the marketing, the five-year macro trend marketing term, people mostly say, “Oh, you don’t do anything related to that and you do this after-effect.” And it’s like, “What? No, no, no. That’s not what I meant.” I think we have to pick our battles. The other thing which I always have mixed feelings about but it does feel like—and I’ve seen this with several of the major technology trends over the last two to three decades—is that it does motivate organizations that traditionally wouldn’t look at technology as enabling components of their business strategy. It does force them to at least take a look, revisit new ideas that may have been scary before. But now they feel like, “Oh, well, let’s at least take a look because it seems everybody else is getting some value from it.” It does at least stir up things inside organizations where you get some creativity going and people are willing to at least step out of their day-to-day and take a look. I’m definitely not a hype person in general, but it does seem to serve at least some positive purpose in that sense. Brian: I kind of see it—we’ve joked about this in the past offline—like there’s a new hammer at Home Depot and everyone’s racing out to go buy this tool but not everyone knows what it does. It’s just, “I got to have one like everyone else. It does everything.” On that thought, of the ten people, ten clients that come in, what role would your typical client be? And of ten of those, how many of them have either unrealistic expectations of like, “Hey, we want to do this grand project with AI and machine learning to do X,” versus, “Hey, we want to really optimize this one part of our supply chain,” or, “We want to do…” something very specific that’s been thought of in terms of either products or service offering or an internal analytics thing where they want to actually apply an optimization or something like that. How many had fallen to the “educated versus maybe less educated,” in terms of what they’re asking for from you? Vinay: I would probably say order 20% to 30% of folks are in that bucket of, “I have a very targeted need. I know exactly what I want to get out of this state of pipeline. I have this other data pipeline I’d like you to work with to put the whole thing together,” or, “I need a specialized machine learning model that will help me segment some of my customers into more fine grain way for this very particular use case,” things like that. Those tend to be organizations that already have a software engineering capability. There’s some data for other business problems already and they either need more help than they have in house or they need some kind of specialized help. So maybe, they have largely done more structured data marketing-related use cases and now, they want to do more natural language-related or in a different area. They generally have a fairly good feel of the landscape and they know how our work would plug into their work. There is probably roughly 50% of what we get as more where we get people who are VPs of Technology, VPs of Product. They understand operations in a pretty meaningful way. A line of business leader who has a meaningful business case in mind, so they already have one or more business problems in mind that they think will be compelling. They want to know, is this a good fit for a machine learning or not? What would be required to actually get to even trying out machine learning? I would put those folks in the bucket that they have thought through some of the business strategy related, sort of going back to that spectrum idea of starting from business strategy all the way to shipping something to production. I would say they are more in the product and technology strategy bucket where they want to figure out, “I don’t know what I have in the rest of my organization, but I know we have some software, we have some data based on running a website for the last four years, whatever else, or some other kind of operational system. I’d like to figure out if we could use machine learning in some way to do something predictive, for example to improve how a call center handles inbound calls and prioritizes some of the tasks.” There are cases where people have much more thought through use cases in mind, but they don’t have the expertise on: What is the data pipeline? What data do I actually need from machine learning? Have I actually ever built and deployed a model before? They’ve usually not have done that. There’re a lot of folks in that bucket. And then, the third bucket is the remainder, which is really people are starting more in the business strategy side, where they’re saying, “Oh, we’d really like to have an open-ended conversation. Our CEO has a five or ten-year vision around transforming our core business and how we service our customers.” I’ve talked to folks that are in much more traditionally industrial businesses like paper processing, for example, or staffing, or more instrument manufacturing, or other types of manufacturing. Those kinds of areas, there is really this historical model of hardware or some other service that gets provided as opposed to Software as a Service. I think everybody is interested in some kind of move to a subscription model and also some understanding of what is the relevance of these technologies. But they are not at the stage where they’ve identified a particular business case or a use case. Brian: If I’m a product manager or someone that’s in charge of bringing ROI to data within my company, say I’m not a technology company, should I be looking to make an investment in a place where maybe it’s more of a traditional analytics thing or maybe I have humans doing eyeball analysis, making decisions about insights from the data, and then saying, “Okay, what we’d like to do is actually see if we can automate this existing process. So, it’s like A, B, C, D, E, F. We want to swap out stage D with a machine learning solution to free those people to do other work”? Or is more like, “We have this data we’re sitting on. Hey, we could train it and do something with it. We’re not doing anything with it right now.” Is there a strategy or some thinking around one of those maybe being a more successful project to take on, any thoughts? Vinay: I think that’s a great way to pose the question because one of the things I would think about as with any new effort in an organization, is that you want to be successful as the person who’s bringing in some new technology or new approach, whether it’s process or people or technology. I think really having a lower risk, a smaller bite at the apple in some sense to get your first success on the board, and then starting to build on that nucleus would definitely be the way I would think about get it going. There may be different situations where, as a leader of a large organization, you really have a directive to be more transformative and that can be a different type of conversation. But as I’d think about somebody who’s in a product role at—let’s call it just for the sake of brevity—a non-tech organization, I think starting with a smaller project where you can get people used to the idea that you could do more with data, it’s not that scary, it’s like another tool, it’s like buying another piece of software and doing some training around it and those kinds of things, then it gives you a success that you can build on and people around you start to have some familiarity with it, where you get less resistance the next time you go and do some things. I think of the overall change management challenge would frame the choice of project in some ways than not. One of the other frameworks I would use also, Ben Evans from Andreessen Horowitz, recently wrote a really nice blog post about how people can organize their thinking around applications of machine learning. The core of the framework is, there are three buckets in which you can think of the problems and potential applicability of machine learning. The first one, actually, falls very much into exactly the example you gave where I might have an analyst working with existing data, etcetera. That’s ‘a known data, known questions’ bucket. So, you have a set of data already available. You have a set of questions your analysts ask every day. Maybe they’re eyeballing it. Maybe they’re running a simple linear regression or something. What’s nice about applying machine learning in that case is it’s literally like, “Oh, you have a mallet. Here I have a stainless steel hammer. Let’s see what happens if I apply my stainless steel hammer.” It’s relatively easy to get set up to do it. Our organization who knows roughly what’s already involved with that data, the semantics of the data. It’s clean enough that you could probably start working with it. It gives you a relatively easy pathway into trying out machine learning. Just saying like, “Oh, we got 50-basis point lift just by applying this new tool, without really changing anything else.” That’s one bucket. The other two buckets, I definitely encourage folks to read the article, to put in the show notes or something. The other two buckets are ‘unknown data, new questions,’ and then the last one is ‘new data, new questions.’ Just to give you a placeholder for what the last bucket is, those are opportunities that you might be able to apply computer vision or put new sensors in a particular environment. So, gathering entirely novel data streams, unmasking new questions. There’s a handful of organizing ideas like this. We generally suggest a few different articles and I am definitely happy to offer those for the show notes as well, if [you’re looking for 00:17:27] different ways to organize their thinking around approaching machine learning problems. Brian: Great. Yes, I’ll definitely put those links into the show notes. Thanks for sharing those. Also, a follow up to that. Once you’re into a project, what are some of the challenges around for projects that have user interface or some kind of user experience that’s directly accessed? Are there challenges that you see your clients having with getting the design right? Are there challenges about getting the model and the data science part right or getting it into production? I heard a lot about this at Strata Conference that I was at in London, that they’re talking a lot about you can do all this magic stuff with your data sciences in the PhDs. But if they don’t know how to either help the engineers or themselves get that code into a production environment, it’s just sitting in a closet somewhere and it’s never going to really return value. Can you talk about some of the design and the engineering challenges that you might be seeing? Vinay: I’m assuming most people listening to the podcast are familiar with traditional product development processes, design iteration, and so forth. What I’ll offer here is the difference when you start thinking about data and machine learning. We have a process we call Lean AI and what we’ve incorporated into that is this idea of a feedback loop between a business understanding, a data understanding, then doing some engineering—this is the data engineering—then doing some modeling, and then putting something in front of users. The major part here is that, you may have a particular idea around what the ideal user experience might be. But then as we start to get into the data, as we start trying different modeling techniques, we might either surface additional opportunities that there may be something compelling that the user could do in their workflow using what the model has surfaced. Or it may be that the original experience as envisioned is going to have to change because there is not enough predictive power in the data, or a data source that you thought you’d be able to get your hands on is just not going to be available, or things like that. So, there is an additional component to the [iteration 00:19:46] loop that you have to rely on, which is just what is in the data, how much can I get access to, and then some of the more traditional software engineering constraints. If it’s going to take six months to get that particular piece of data cleaned up enough such that we can actually use it, is there something lighter weight that we could at least get started with at something in front of users first, and then continue to refine and iterate over time? That’s probably the big difference in terms of traditional product development that just involves software engineering in apps versus working with the data and machine learning. There’s a little bit of just this science of what is possible inside of the data given the signal inside [00:20:27] datum. The engineering part is definitely, as you said, something that is talked less about historically and it sounds like, based on some of the things you’ve heard at Strata, that is something that is starting to change. What I’ve seen is that a lot of the tutorials, a lot of the content out there has historically been focused on, “Get your first model going,” or, “Take this particular data set and try out building a model or tweaking this or that.” In that sense, there’re also a lot of tools available for doing data science and data science exploration. It’s great that, exactly like you said, Brian, that somebody’s built a model that’s interesting. But one, if we haven’t built the rest of the product around it and then if we haven’t actually got that model to production; as I like to say, if at the end of the day somebody’s not pushing a button differently because of your model or pulling the leverage differently because of your model, it really doesn’t matter that you built it in the first place. That actually goes back to requiring engineering and product development type expertise as opposed to data science type expertise, which I feel a little bit more like traditional on science type disciplines where you’re doing experimentation. Brian: Do you get to the point where you’re midway through a project and just kind of like, “We’re not sure if we can do this,” or “The predictive power is not there”? I imagine you probably try to prevent getting into a situation where that happens. Is there a client training that has to go on if they’re coming to you too early? Like, “We’re ready to build this thing. We want to put a model to do X,” and you’re like, “Whoa.” How do you take them on like, “Come back to us in two months or when you guys have figured this out”? How do you take them on to make sure that doesn’t happen and they don’t spend all this money on hiring data scientist internally to work with you or on their own, or just you and not getting an ROI? How do you educate on that? Vinay: That’s again what we have incorporated into this Lean AI process where we’ve taken the spirit of Agile and some of the ideas around Lean startup, for example. There’s actually an old framework from the late 90s called CRISP-DM—it’s from the data mining community—and really, the idea in all of these things is tackling your big risks early and surfacing them. We take a similar approach where anybody can do this. But it’s getting an understanding of what is the business problem you want to go after and what is the data you have available. We call it a business understanding phase and a data understanding phase. During that phase of the data understanding, it’s really doing a data audit. Particularly, it’s an issue on large organizations. People think they have access to certain data but it may be that somebody in a different organization owns the data and they’re not going to give it to you. You sort of have the human problems that we’ve always had. Then there’s other parts which are, “Is there a predictive power in the data? Is the data clean?” Generally, the first thing we do is just apply a suite of tools that will characterize the data, profile the data, and help us get an understanding of what do we think is there. Usually, we work with clients, team members who have domain knowledge. They generally have pretty good intuition of what should the data show and that oftentimes is a good way to normalize everybody’s expectations. As an example, we’re working on one with an industrial client last year. In addition to sensor data coming off their devices, they also had field notes that people had entered when they were servicing some of the equipment. As we were working with their experts during the data understanding phase, the experts actually said, “You know what? I wouldn’t trust the field notes. People sometimes put them in and sometimes they don’t. The quality varies a lot across who put those notes in and what they put in there. So, let’s just not use that data source.” You can really bring in some of the intuition that people already have around their data and bring that into the conversation. That becomes an almost shared decision about what do we think we can try and get out of this data, what’s in the data, and do you guys agree that this data actually is saying what you think it should say? Those kinds of things. I would say, tackling big risks early is one of the major themes of what we do. The other part really comes from, again, the engineering approach that a lot of us have taken historically from our past experiences. [It’s probably 00:25:48] the best analogy I can do from their product management days is this idea of just doing mockups and doing paper mocks and those kinds of things before you get to higher fidelity mocks. There’s a similar idea in machine learning where we have this idea like, “Okay, get some basic data through your data pipeline. It doesn’t have to be perfect.” Then we build this thing called the baseline model, which is, “Yes, there are 45 different techniques you can use to build a machine learning model. Let’s take one of the simplest ones. Something like random forest where we know that’s not the best performing model for every use case, but it’s really easy to build. It’s really easy to understand at least out of your first version what the model is doing.” You can get some baseline of performance pretty quickly, which is, does it perform at 60% or does it perform at 80%? From there, you can start to have a discussion about, how much more investment do we want to make? Do we need to get more data in here to clean the existing data and transform it in different ways, explore different modeling techniques? Those kinds of things. I draw the analogy to some of the product development processes that we would follow if we were just doing software engineering project, which is, let’s get something built end-to-end then add more functionality over time, things like that and then take it from there. Brian: Regarding the projects you work on, are your clients , most of the time,the actual end users of this service or the direct beneficiaries, or typically, are they building something internally that will be used by other employees or vendors or their customers? How close to that is the person going to benefit from or use the service that you’re building? Vinay: I’m definitely not aware of all of our projects, but the projects I’m aware of and the ones I’m working on right now, they all have enterprise users. None of them are applications that are going to go out to end users. But nonetheless, the enterprise users are folks who are not technology people or not particularly specialized in data or anything like that. They are more folks who are executing on processes as part of a broader workflow. For example, it might be a health coach that is at a particular company, or it might be a call center employee, or it might be the maintenance and repairs center at an industrials company. It’s more internal users or if it’s external users, it’s still again enterprise users who are using a larger product. Brian: Do you ever get direct access to those when you’re working with your clients or typically, is your client the interface to them? How involved do you get with some of these like a call center rep or something like that? Vinay: It actually depends on the type of expertise that our client has. If they have a product owner and a product manager who’s fairly confident about their ability to interface with the end user, we might. Instead of them being part of the user feedback sections, as some of these models go in front of users, there may be at the beginning of a project, having a few conversations to understand the context in which particular operational data was gathered, or the workflow that might surround the model that we’re building, or the data pipeline that we’re building. We might have a few conversations. But again, if they have a strong product function already, we would probably be more isolated from that. If, on the other hand, there isn’t that much of a product function that is familiar with software engineering and product developments, some of these non-tech organizations, product managers, they are maybe much more hardware-oriented or they may not even have a product to roll, depending on the type of operation. There, we would be much closer to the end users understanding the use cases. We also want to partner with whoever is doing the product design and some of the other UX components as well. I would imagine that there’d generally be another partner of some sort. We’re interested in talking to the end users. But we’re definitely not the experts on product design and so forth. We’d expect somebody else to play that role. Either somebody like you where the client is partnered with another organization or individual, or they have capability internally. Brian: One place we think about lots of data, obviously, is in the traditional analytics space for internal companies or even information like SaaS products and information products. Do you see the capabilities of data science and machine learning that have really been enabled in the last few years? Primarily,what I understand is there’s more data availability. There’s more compute power availability. It’s not so much that the science is new. A lot of the science I hear is quite old. The formulas and algorithms have been around. It hasn’t been as feasible to implement them. Now that it is, do you see that traditional analytics deployments over time will start to leverage more and more like predictive capabilities or prescriptive analytics where there’s less report generation, less eyeball analysis? Say, in the next five years, 20% of traditional analytics capabilities will be replaced by more prescriptive and predictive capabilities because of this? Or is it really just it’s going to take a lot longer to do that? I imagine some of it’s just at the mercy of the data you have available. You can’t solve every problem with this, but do you see an evolution happening in that data? Is that making sense? Vinay: Yeah, absolutely. You’ve hit upon a really important idea. I’ll start my answer though taking a slightly different view, which is what is going to stay constant, and then we can talk about what is going to change. The part I found most exciting about business intelligence, analytics reporting, pick your category name, is when you can get it embedded into a workflow. The folks who are actually on the front lines making, running through a workflow, or going through a customer interaction or whatever, they actually have access to that data and they’re able to drive decision-making as part of their process. What we’ve seen in the last order of 20 years, is this continued increase of this notion of a data-driven organization, that people should have more access to data when they’re in these workflows and decision-making. Everything from things you’ve probably heard about, like insurance companies or telco companies, call center folks being able to offer you something if you’re going to turn, for example. An offer pop ups on their screen and they’ll able to give that to you. That’s a nice example where somebody’s actually using the decision-making as part of their production workflow. We’re just generally seeing more of that. So, no matter what, whether it’s prescriptive or descriptive, whatever else, I broadly see continued adoption of analytics and data in more workflows across a whole range of software products. I’m generally excited about that. I wish it would take less time but at least we’re continuing to make progress on that. I think what you hit upon is what’s going to change. I firmly believe we’re seeing this in name today but we’ll see this more in actual. The nature of the work itself in the future, there’s a lot of people who have the business analyst role today and organizations in their supporting different functions. Largely, I think of them as people who have a fairly deep understanding of the business. They generally live in Excel. They’re complete masters of Excel. They can build what-if models, they can do scenario-solving, they can do VLOOKUPs, and do all of those kinds of things in Excel. I think they’re going to get a whole additional set of tools. I tell people this and I’m going to go on the record here and suggest that, I’m almost imagining Excel 2020 is going to have a button that you can hit and you can say, “Here’s my data. Go try out 50 different models or 500 different models.” Excel will go off, ship your data to Azure, it’ll run a whole bunch of different models and come back and tell you, “Here’s the three that seem to fit your data best.” Really, the skill that you need at the end of the day, which is the skill you need today, is understanding the statistics of the data, having some intuition around the business and what’s going on around you, and then really being able to swap ends and these other statistical methods that we group under machine learning, being able to swap those in once those tools are mature enough for broader use in deployment. Because of that, I think yes, in the five-year timeframe, we’ll see the leading edge of more prescriptive analytics entering product workflows just like we’re now. I’d be curious about your opinion on this but I feel like we’re past the earlier doctrine more now in the mainstream phase of descriptive analytics entering some of the different products. Brian: Yes, maybe it’s fed Microsoft a little tip for how to improve their office lead down a couple of years from now. This has been really informative. Thanks for coming on. Do you have any single message or advice you’d give to data product managers or analytics leaders in businesses in terms of how they can design and/or deploy better data products in their organization or for their customers if they are like a SaaS or information provider? Any general tips you’ve seen or something you can offer them? Vinay: Maybe a handful of things just to run through it with different levels of applicability. One of them is that having a good business case, as the way we talked about earlier and taking on something small is definitely very helpful to build some success. Also, maybe squelch some of the visionary enthusiasm that people might have. In general, trying to feed some of the vision component while you’re trying to get a great concrete success on the board, is something just to keep in mind to get people excited about the potential and the future. That’s one bucket. If you have a vision in mind, one of the things your technology teams and your machine learning teams can do, and is something we definitely ask for when we do our engagements, while you’re solving a specific business case and a specific problem, you can do the work in a way that lays the foundation for longer term leverage on the work. So, if we build the data pipeline, we know that you have a specific two-year vision. We can actually start to lay some of the pieces even as part of that project to make investment towards that vision. While you should execute on smaller opportunities, you should also dream big. I think that’s one general thought. Another thing I’ve been starting to form an opinion around is that, to execute successfully on a product and execute data and machine learning component of a product, you have to have a ‘what’ in mind, like, “What is this product going to do with the data?” You need to have a product direction, product sense, product vision, whatever you want to call it to know what’s going to happen in the context of that product. Longer term, when you start to think about the context for these kinds of capabilities you need to think about organizational vision. For this product it may be that you did it with a couple of folks from another team that sat down the hall just to get something out the door. But then, really having an idea in the 18-month timeframe, do you want to build a software engineering organization? Do you want to build a data engineering capability? Do you want to have a data science team? Do you want to work with the finance team to maybe get a couple of business analysts over to a new team? I think really starting to contextualize your product vision with what’s your organizational vision, is important for the longer term picture and having clarity around that even as you tackle on the shorter term opportunities. Those are probably a couple of things that hopefully people find helpful. Brian: Yes, I definitely did. I was actually going to follow this up but it may be an unnecessary question. But one of the services that I’m often asked to come in with clients is to help them either envision a new product, something that they’re working on, and it’s what I call getting from the nothing to something phase where it’s a Word document of requirements or capabilities, features, what have you and getting to that first visual something. It sounds like you still think that that step, even if you don’t bite off the whole thing from an engineering standpoint, having an idea of your goal post about where a service might go that could incorporate some machine learning or AI technology, still is helpful and deploying a small increment of utility into the organization. Would you agree with that still? Vinay: Yes, absolutely. Even for the folks building their models or building your data pipeline to get the data cleaned up and usable, whether it’s for analytics or for your models, it’s really helpful to have that broader context as opposed to having a very narrow window into, “Oh, I need these three fields to be cleaned up and available.” If you can’t provide that broader context, I feel you end up with a lot of disjointed pieces as opposed to something that feels good when you’re done. I would definitely agree with that. Brian: Well, Vinay, thank you so much for coming on. This has been super educational for me and I’m sure for people listening as well. Where can people learn more about what you’re doing? I’ll definitely put the Ben Evans link and your Lean AI process that you talked about. So, send me those links. But where can people learn more about what you do? Vinay: Our website manifold.ai is definitely the best place to start. We have a few things about the type of work we do and some case studies as well as some background of our team. That would be helpful. In terms of my own time, I actually don’t spend that much time on social media. LinkedIn is probably the easiest place to find me. Generally, I post things there occasionally and definitely participate in some conversations there. It would be great to chat with folks there. Brian: All right, great. Well, thanks again and I hope to talk to you soon. Vinay: Thank you, Brian. I really appreciate it. It’s great conversation.

Brian K Wright is the host of Success Profiles Radio and publisher of Success Profiles Magazine. Over the last 6 years, Brian has interviewed world-class achievers such as Darren Hardy, Jack Canfield, Loral Langemeier, Kevin Harrington, Sharon Lechter, and many more. A lot of people, when they think about writing a book, they think of selling millions of copies and it’s a really nice idea but unless you’re really famous or well known that may or may not happen. It’s what you can do with the book once it’s done that’s the goal, whether it’s speaking on stage, having a coaching program, staging a live event, or being invited to do shows. It will present opportunities to sell your book and make a lot of money at your bookstore signings. There are a lot of opportunities to go beyond the book but the book is the springboard by which you can do everything. Brian’s radio show was the springboard that created a lot of opportunities and then the book spun from that and the magazine spun from that. Start somewhere, master or something I know I’m going and then figure out how to spend it. A lot of people make the mistake of trying to start a bunch of things at once and end up not doing any of them very well. A book is a credibility piece. If there are let’s just say hypothetically 10 people in your industry and somebody is trying to decide who to work with. If you’ve got a book on the other nine don’t guess who automatically has the the first opportunity the person with the book because you you must be the expert. People will make that assumption and so they’ll check out your book. They like to do their research and figure out who people are. If they see your book it can be a nuclear business card. You can find out more about Brian, his books and Success Profiles https://briankwright.com/ (here.)   Read Full Transcript Melinda: Welcome to another episode of Writer on the Road. Today we're travelling to Arizona which is a little bit far away from where we are here in Oz. I'd like to welcome Brian Wright. Brian is a guest that I have been recommended to by Brian Burkard. Hi Brian. This one's for you. I have been encouraging my friend Brian from the Marketers Mindset to write a book for a long time and I believe part of your expertise is in book writing. Brian: It is. I've done three of my own books and I go through my books for other people and I also host a meetup group here in Arizona for offers and side started that a couple of months ago I had my third meeting earlier this week with my group and it's been a lot of fun it's been a great journey. Melinda: I always go straight to the top when I need my experts. Brian, I've got to tell you that with my research that I've been carrying out tonight you are the expert of all experts. You have a wonderful book out and it's a new book released this month and it's called Success Profiles, Conversations With High Achievers. You can have a podcast success profiles radio. You also publish the Success Profiles Magazine. Brian: Yes. It's a spinoff of my radio brand. When I started my radio show back in 2012 I realized after a while I had so much content that I could repurpose. I think this is really important. If you are creating content repurposing in as many ways as possible. Some people will listen to you do a radio show or podcast. Some people read but some people will read your magazine. Some people will meet you in person but they won't find you everywhere unless they're a super fan. But you have to reach people where they are. Some people prefer to read. Some people prefer to listen and so repurposed content to appeal to as many of the senses as possible so that people have a greater opportunity to find you. Melinda: Brian is an expert at this everybody. I'll confess it's four o'clock in the morning here and I started researching Brian's work at midnight and I have kept...

So the big question is this, how do you become financially free in today's world where you can do what you love doing, spend time with the ones you love and provide for your family without being chained and selling your soul to a nine to five corporate America job without having to sacrifice going out to eat so you can pay off the debt faster. The question isn't, how do you save more? The question is, how do you make more without spending more time? That is the question and this podcast as the answers. My name is Ryan Enk and this is Cash Flow Dad Life Ryan: All right. What's up everybody? This is Ryan with cashflow dad life and I'm stoked today to bring to you the cash flow Ninja of the world right now, Brian page. And the reason I call them that is because he has made over $300,000 in just six months using a huge new real estate investment strategy in the short term rental market using AIRBNB's. Brian, are you there? Brian: Yes, I am. What's going on? I've never been called the cashflow Ninja before. Okay. Ryan: No, it kind of has a nice ring to it, doesn't, it does. Just remember you heard it from me first. I might have to, might have to copyright that Brian, but so he calls the strategy the BNB formula and basically what it is is you can get started with this on a shoestring budget even with very little money because you don't have to actually own the properties. You can make. Quit your job type of money in just a few months... You can automate the business to make it passive and work on just a laptop or a cell phone for just four hours a week or less. And you could get started with no credit. Did I miss anything there? Brian: Yeah, no, it sounds too good to be true. I'll have to have to preface it because it sounds, it does sound amazing, but um, but I, I, yeah, basically what I've done is I've taught other people to do is, is pretty exciting. I'm very excited to talk about it. Ryan: And you've gotten some great results from a lot of the people that you've been teaching too. And that's kind of the premise of our podcast and our program is we want to provide people with passive income type opportunities so that they can be financially free. And that's one of the things that are really like about this is that you can kind of automate the business now. Nothing is entirely passive, but you've gotten it down to an art on how to basically minimize your time. So that is generally a passive business. Brian: Well, you want me to jump into it and kind of give the overview on what it is? Ryan: Yeah, absolutely. But real quick, how I kind of stumbled across this was a, I actually, because I'm a real estate investor, I see all these things in my facebook feed and uh, the BNB formula kind of popped up and I'm. And I thought that I was a pretty smart, right? So I bought this vacation rental property on the water in New Orleans is the $750,000 property and I got the owner to be the bank to me and he accepted $60,000 down, which is less than 10 percent. Uh, and it came fully furnished, so I just thought I was a genius and the first year I made $80,000 rental income in the short term rental market. So then I saw your thing pop up on the newsfeed on facebook and um, and so I went through, I watched the Webinar and end up getting the course and then I realized, wow, I'm a complete moron. I could have done this without putting $60,000 down. I could have just done this and you know, started cash flowing on it right away without that risk of ownership. And even if I wanted to be an owner, there's ways to do that --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/cashflow-dadlife/support

If you own a tablet or iPad, you've probably shopped for a case for it. And if you bought a case for it, did you ever run across beautiful leather cases that looked like books? If so, you and I have the same taste. Pad & Quill makes those luxurious cases. Our guest today is Brian Holmes, President, and owner of Pad & Quill. He started the business in 2010 with his wife, Kari. It was a desire to create exceptionally crafted luxury accessories (rather than profits) that motivated Holmes when he chose to start the business with a budget of just over $1,000. Pad and Quill is the tale of a shop formed with bookbinders, carpenters, a painter and a working mom coming together to create beautiful handmade iPad/iPhone cases, leather bags, and other dry goods. In this episode, we dive into his seven-year journey in ecommerce and discover what he's learned along the way. — Subscribe to The Unofficial Shopify Podcast via Email Subscribe to The Unofficial Shopify Podcast on iTunes Subscribe to The Unofficial Shopify Podcast on Stitcher Subscribe to The Unofficial Shopify Podcast via RSS Join The Unofficial Shopify Podcast Facebook Group Work with Kurt — Learn: How Pad & Quill got started Their direct approach to launching the brand Why you should embrace your passion The advantage of lifetime warranties How to Brian pitches the press The golden rule that governs Brian's marketing Why he moved from Magento to Shopify Plus And his advice for entrepreneurs Links Mentioned: PadAndQuill - Use coupon code BHAPPY10 to get 10% off any product Shopify Plus Free Guide I want to send you a sample chapter of Ecommerce Bootcamp, absolutely free. Tell me where to send your sample at ecommerce-bootcamp.com Transcript Kurt: Hello, and welcome back to The Unofficial Shopify Podcast. I'm your host, Kurt Elster, recording from Ethercycle headquarters; about 10 minutes from O'Hare Airport, if you're familiar. And today I'm talking to a wonderful, seven year-old eCommerce store owner. Well, the store is seven years old. The owner is not seven years old, I should say, I should be specific. But we've got this app called Crowdfunder, and it's not the easiest thing to install if you're not familiar with HTML. So people ask me, "Hey Kurt, can you install this thing for me?" And I say, "Yes, of course." And in doing that, I always get to check out some interesting stores. And in this case, I said, gee this seems ... I was looking at a store, it was called Pad & Quill, and I thought, this seems awfully familiar. So I went and I searched through my email, and sure enough, I had bought an iPad case from Pad & Quill in 2011. So I reached out, and I acted like, this seemed familiar because it is familiar; I used to have your case on my first gen iPad, and I would love to hear your story. This looks like a fascinating brand, they were in the process of moving to Shopify Plus. So I wanted to hear that story. So joining me today, is Brian Holmes, who is the President/Owner of Pad & Quill. He started in 2010 with his wife, Kari. Prior to running Pad & Quill, he's a Tradesman for over 16 years; we'll find out in what. He and Kari have been married for almost 27 years. Congratulations! It is so much easier to do this with a supportive family, and doing it with family helps. But Brian, thank you for joining us. Brian: Kurt, thank you for having us on. I appreciate it, having me on. My only question is, you've only boughten one case since 2011, Kurt. What's goin on? Kurt: (laughs) Let's see, I had- Brian: (laughs) Kurt: So for the longest time I just had the standard iPad case on there. And then one of my kids dropped it on the kitchen tile floor like two or three years ago, and we have not had an iPad since. Someday. Brian: Ah. Kurt: Someday I'll get around to buying another iPad. Brian: Yes. Well, you're right I'm not seven years old, I'm almost 50, but I've been doing this for seven years. That is correct. Kurt: Very good. Brian: Yeah. Kurt: For our listeners, what is Pad & Quill? Brian: So, Pad & Quill is a, we are a luxury accessory maker. So we design and craft luxury goods for tech and play. That's kinda what we like to say. They're durable goods. They're artisan made. Those four words are very important to us. We don't wanna make anything that is going to fade away within a year and breakdown, et cetera. So all of our products come with longer warranties, and we want them to be very well made, as far as what we call good art. So when we make a product, to us, it should be both beautiful and functional. Cause you can have a lot of products out there that are really nice to look at, but they don't last, or they're really, really functional, but they're just ugly. So what we're trying to do is create these kind of beautiful leather bags, iPad cases, MacBook cases, things like that, that are unique, but also provide a function, provide a utility and are durable. They last a long time. So that's kinda been our focus. We're a typical company, that when we started, we started one place, and ended up somewhere else. That's very common in startup stories, that the products you started with aren't always the products you end up making five years later. Kurt: So somewhere along your line you had to pivot. Going back to the beginning, how did you start Pad & Quill? Brian: Yeah. Kurt: And what was your first product? Brian: Yeah. So we started with $1,200, and I- Kurt: Very good. Brian: I painted my web designer's deck. Kurt: (laughs) Brian: She painted it ... She still works with us, she's still a consultant, Kathy. She made our website. She coded it on ... I can't even remember where it was coded, what platform; think it was WordPress. And we started an original ... She built it all, all I knew is that I had seen a product out in San Francisco by a company called DODOcase. Kurt: DODOcase, another Shopify store. Brian: Yeah, they made a wood and book case, and I saw what they were doing. And I thought, my word, we could do this, but we could more than what they're doing. We could do, like, MacBook cases, and iPhone cases, and all kinds of stuff. So that kinda was the inspiration. So we took the $1,200, I paid a photographer far less than he deserved; he still works with me today. Now he's making money, but he knew we didn't have a lot so he gave me a deal. We built four prototypes, and we put up the site, it was in late June of 2010, and just started reaching out to the press saying, "Hey, we've got these products. They're on pre-order, they'll deliver in six weeks." You know, basically, help us fund this, in many ways. Reached out to everyone you could think of. Some Wired, I was talking to Walt Mossberg at The Wall Street Journal, who turned me down, of course. Kurt: (laughs) Brian: But what happened was, we got picked up by a couple people. So Gadget Lab picked us up at Wired, and then someone at Gizmodo wrote about us; and it started to pick up. Sales started coming in, and what had happened is, it was really born of not an idea that I had been thinking about. It was born out of a passion of a product I already saw, that I liked, which was the iPad and then the book bindery style case. And it just, kinda like, came together one evening. I was just like, "Wait a minute, we could do this. And we could do this better." You know, cause typical entrepreneurs think they can always do it better. So I was thinking, we can do this better, or different. Kurt: So when you saw that original DODOcase- Brian: Yeah. Kurt: You saw an iPad, [inaudible 00:05:50] and you saw ... And at that time, that was very early; I don't know if that was the first gen or second gen iPad at that point. Brian: First gen, first gen. Kurt: First gen, okay. So very early on. When you first held an iPad, it did have kind of a magical quality to it, where it's like, it's just this big, solid glass display that I can poke at. Brian: Right. Kurt: And at that time, apps had really ... Like, a lot of them had these very novel interfaces; it was pretty exciting. Brian: It was. Kurt: Back six years ago, it seems like forever ago, and now we don't think twice about it. But it was exciting. And then you had seen, you're right, DODOcase in San Francisco who was using traditional book ... Really, I mean, they were making cases using just traditional book binding- Brian: Techniques, yeah. Kurt: Techniques. Brian: Yep. Kurt: And you're right, in the typical, the entrepreneurial mindset, you said, "I love both of these. Why can't I do this? Why not me?" Brian: Yeah. Kurt: That's often how businesses start. Why not me? Brian: Yeah, and it didn't have, necessarily, a logic behind it. It had an opportunity, is what was seen. But here's the interesting thing, what happened was, is that as Kari and I started working on these products, all of a sudden there was something that connected for both of us; which was, these devices by Apple are beautifully designed, made of aluminum and glass, steel, gorgeous, gorgeous finishes, but they lacked warmth. Kurt: Yeah, they're ultra modern, which- Brian: Yeah, they're ultra modern Kurt: Can often make them feel cold. Brian: Which is fine, but we love, and that's a huge passion of ours, is that we love traditional materials. So it wasn't just book bindery, and that's why after the first two years of selling I ... I mean, we shipped about 3,000 iPad cases out of my basement window- Kurt: Hmm Brian: In the first nine months of the business. So what we were doing is we were having a bindery in Minneapolis make the books. And we were having a CNC Maker make the wood, and they were putting it together for us. And then we would take it to our basement and do some finishing touches, and ship them. So, we continued our press push. We constantly were reaching out to the press, coming out with new products. So we were in a never-ending cycle of creating new things. So we created a book-style case for a MacBook Air, which was very unique to the market, and that got us a lot of pickup. We just kept working through all these different products. We did stuff for the Kindle, at that time. This again, back in 2010 when the Kindle was pretty popular. Yeah, and then after about 3,000 or 4,000 products, my wife was like, "I want the basement back." Kurt: (laughs) Brian: So that's pretty much what happened. So we found a spot in Northeast Minneapolis, which is kind of an arts community area of Minneapolis, in downtown. We found a little spot there, and that's where we've been since. So, we've been there since I think May of 2011. Kurt: Did you, at all, have a background in business, entrepreneurship, manufacturing? Did you have any unfair advantage or skills that you think played a part in the success? Or at least, did you just have so much hubris you said, "You know, I think I could do this and then figure it out." Brian: Yeah, it's interesting you said unfair, cause that's an interesting term; that it's unfair. I mean, I know what you mean, like did I have something that I could leverage, that other people wouldn't typically have. Here's the thing, I had been a painting contractor. So I had done wall painting, like, house painting. I'd done that for 16 years. We had four kids. I didn't wanna be a painter for the rest of my life. And then the last five years of my trades work, and this was my own company, and I had a couple guys working for me, we were pretty small. In the last five years, I got into more artistic designs. So I was doing a lot of artisan finishes on walls and design work. Kurt: Like French plaster, and that kinda thing. Brian: Yeah. Kurt: Okay. Brian: Exactly. Kurt: Cool. Brian: And Venetian plasters, all that stuff. And what was interesting was, I really enjoyed that part of it. I, then, got my four year degree. In those last five years, I got my four year degree at night, in Psychology, ironically. I had never finished my four year. I went and got it, never used it. Think I decided at the end of my Psychology degree that I couldn't listen to people that long. Kurt: (laughs) Brian: So I ended up not doing anything with that, but I took a job with a small tech startup; cause I wanted to get out of painting. I didn't feel like I was using my skills the way I wanted to. So I took a risk and jumped into a small startup, which failed. It failed in about 18 months. It was a tech startup with a guy here locally, he was an inventor. It went poorly. What happened was, is that, the idea for Pad & Quill, the idea for me ... Like, I didn't have any manufacturing background. But my time, those 18 months in that startup, taught me almost a Master's level about here's how you'd operationalize a product; here's all the things you would need to make a product happen. And so, I think Pad & Quill was kinda like, a culmination of multiple life experience; running a painting company, being part of a small startup. It just kinda all came together, and I thought I could do this, and here's how I'd do it. And as I've moved further away, I'm realizing I love design. You know, I have no background in actual design. I have no background in product design. It was very much self-taught, but it's following ... I'm good at reading what people want to see in the markets, and then kind of taking it and putting my own flavor to it. Kurt: Okay. So early on you started with, it starts with your passion, and it sounds like you have a passion for product design, which is great. Brian: Yeah. Kurt: It's so much easier to run a business when it's exciting to you, versus I'm just going to do this because it will sell. That's such a struggle; and some people have the discipline to do it. I think it just makes life harder. Brian: It does. Kurt: Certainly easier if you enjoy the product. So you created this ... How many products did you launch with, like, within the first 12 months? Brian: Two. Oh, in 12 months, probably- Kurt: So you started with two. Brian: Started with two, and then we added some Kindle, and then some MacBook products. So they- Kurt: And they're all variations on ... They're essentially the same product in different form factors. Brian: Exactly. It was the same product on the same theme. So then, in 2011, the iPad 2 came out, so that was a big lift for us; and we became a competitor to DODOcase. And there was another company, I believe called Portenzo, out there at the time; and Treegloo. There was a few other competitors doing what we were doing. But here's what happened, and this was a huge shift for us, in 2012, so I'm a good two years in, I was noticing that these books were falling apart. So what was happening is, these books were made in traditional book bindery techniques, using really good book material; but they were falling apart. And I was like, they look beautiful, but they don't last. And I was realizing this is a ... You know, people love our product, they love our design, but I don't love that they don't last. And if you're cynical you could say, well that just means people will come back and buy another one. And my comment to that is, no, it means people will be disaffected by your brand. Kurt: I agree. Brian: They'll say your stuff isn't gonna last. Kurt: The brands I've seen where the product is incredibly durable, where they're comfortable in giving, like, really outlandish warranties on it because it's so durable; those are the brands where people, they don't have to worry about it falling apart and someone buying another one because people like it so much, they recommend it and they often will buy multiples. Brian: Right. Kurt: A good example would be, oh there's a Reddit group, I think, called Buy It For Life, where people just recommend products that they think will last a lifetime. Brian: Oh, funny. Kurt: Yeah. Off the top of my head ... And some are leather goods. But often times we see Saddleback Leather's bags mentioned, Beltman leather gun belts, which a gun belt- Brian: Okay. Kurt: Just turns out, it's a very stiff belt. Brian: Yeah. Kurt: I'm wearing one right now; it's a client. Brian: (laughs) Kurt: Yeah, those are great. Brian: Yeah. Kurt: What's the other one? Another good example. Oh, we use Everest bands as an example; they make watch straps for Rolex, but out of this unreal durable rubber. We had a review where someone said that they run it through an autoclave on a weekly basis, and the thing's fine. Brian: Yeah, yeah. Kurt: And it doesn't hurt their sales, people buy multiple products. So, no, I'm with you. Brian: And so what happened is, in 2011, I said that's it. It was late 2011, I said we have gotta shift to leather. We've just gotta shift, cause this is not a sustainable ... We're doing the eCommerce thing well. You know, by the way, we're not buying any ads from Google for the first three years. We are existing purely on reaching out to the press with new products. Any press that'll listen to us, and you know, if you have something kind of sexy, they'll write about it. Kurt: So that's a- Brian: And that would bring in sales. Kurt: Alright, that is an excellent point. But it's so difficult. Brian: Mm-hmm (affirmative) Kurt: Early on, the only marketing you were doing were two things, PR and these continuous launch cycles. Brian: Yep. Kurt: So you're coming out. You end up, kinda trapped in a thing where you're always launching new products; and that could be good, or it can be a struggle. Brian: Yeah, it's a little of both. Kurt: It's a little of both. Brian: Yeah. Kurt: But it gives you a reason to keep reaching out to the press. And once, I think, you've gotten over that initial hurdle where they're interested in you, and you start developing relationships, it helps. Brian: Right. Kurt: But what do you think goes into, like, what makes a good press pitch? Cause this is so difficult. Brian: Yeah. This is a good question. This is a good question. Two things, be real. You know, don't sit there and try to ... Don't talk to a press person like you're not pitching them; you are pitching them. But, with that said, be brief. Okay. Brevity is the soul of wit, is a famous saying. I love that saying; it's very true. Be very brief in your communication. Send a big fat image to the press. Make sure you're taking some photography of your product that looks nice. Pay a photographer friend, if you're just starting out, to maybe give you a hand. Because good imagery goes a long ways in a writer's mind, because in the end, what they're looking for is, are you offering me something my readers would care about? Is this interesting to my readers? Cause if it's interesting, yeah I'll write about it. I'll mention it. I'll tweet about it. So, be brief, be very real, just be open. Say, "Hey we're just starting out. We're a family business." That's what we used to say. Our pitch was, "Hey this is Brian from Pad & Quill. We're a small family business here, in Minneapolis. We've got these beautiful new iPad cases we're just releasing. Here's some images. Thanks for any considerations, if you'd cover us." I still say that same email, what I just said to you just now, today. Kurt: Hmm. Brian: I still email that exact same way, today, when I'm emailing Wired. Kurt: I'm sure it works. Brian: Yeah. Kurt: I am on the receiving end of so many awful pitch emails, and outreach emails. Brian: Yeah. Kurt: That when one comes through where it's like, alright, it's not a giant wall of text. It's concise, it's to the point, it tells me what the advantage to me and my audience is, and it's not trying to trick me, or in any way mislead me. It's saying, hey, this is who I am, this is what I can offer you or your audience, and if you wanna know more information, here's next ups. Brian: Right. Kurt: And it's genuine and real. Brian: It is, and I think that, that has a huge benefit. Again, it's that whole idea of, are you serving people? So I come from the place of serving my customers. I serve my customers, then I'll be able to create an income for myself and my family. If I serve my vendors by creating a customer base, then my vendors will be loyal to me, and continue to make products on time; because they know that I have a loyal customer base. If I'm going to the press, am I operating from a place of service? How am I serving the press person? Not using, serving. There's a huge difference between those two. Because in serving someone, you're saying, how can I help your column to be more interesting? Would this be a way to do it? And the press person may say, "No, this is not of interest to me right now," and that's fine. But it's better to come from that perspective, more of humility, than to come from, "You know, you should cover this. We have a lot of customers. You should cover our products, they last forever." Kurt: (laughs) Brian: That doesn't go very far with the press. It's funny, I wanna finish that pivot because you brought up a company I wanna kinda tie you into. So, in 2012, we wanted to move to leather goods. I wanted to get into more leather cases. I wanted to make an iPhone case. We were making them, at the time, out of traditional book bindery material. They'd last, honestly, about nine months. We were charging, like, $50, and I'm thinking, that's too much money for somethin that falls apart. You know? How do we do this? So I started reaching out to leather manufacturing companies, and I came across a company called Saddleback Leather Company. Kurt: Very good. Brian: And I hit up their PR guy, and I said, "Hey, I wanna do manufacturing." And they said no. And on the third time, I kept coming back, they gave in. So, all of our, the majority, I shouldn't say all, but the majority of our leather goods are made by Saddleback's manufacturing. So, Dave Munson's a good friend of mine, that developed over the last four years from all this. So it's funny you brought up Saddleback, cause I was like, "Yep, that's our people." Kurt: Right. Brian: And that's the thing is that, what I knew I needed, I don't wanna make just a beautiful item, I have to make something that lasts and is durable. And we have been so thrilled to be working with Saddleback's team. They have a plant in Mexico that we use, and it's just phenomenal, they treat their people really well. I've been there, I've seen what they do. It's just a fantastic company to work with. Yeah, so that's who we use for all our leather. So that happened in 2012, and we launched this little leather wallet case with them; and it was partly made here, actually. Some of it was made here, some of it was made in Mexico. It was all brought to St. Paul and assembled, and that took off in 2012. We had a huge, huge sales cycle, our biggest year ever in 2012; at that time. Kurt: This is just a leather wallet? This was your- Brian: Yeah, it was basically, like, a leather wallet case with our wood frame. We had our unique wood frame attached to all leather, so it was really durable. And that started in 2012, it was featured in the New York Times in 2013. We had a big year in 2013 and 14 because of it. Yeah, iPhone cases were real good to us in the first three years. And then, in 2013, 14 is when we started developing our lifestyle line. That's when we started bringing in bags, we started creating ... Our first bag launch was in late 2013. Kurt: I'm admiring your Classic Journeyman leather wallet on your website. I gotta- Brian: Oh yeah. Kurt: Pick up one of these. Oh, and it even comes in different colors. Brian: Oh yeah. Kurt: Oh that chest- Brian: Yeah, if that Chestnut looks familiar, you've seen it at Saddleback Leather. And I have no problem promoting Saddleback, cause honestly, it's a great company. Dave and I are different designer styles, definitely, but he makes great bags. He makes great bags. Kurt: Yeah, I see right on here. It says, "30 day, money back promise, and 10 year leather guarantee." Brian: Yeah. Kurt: So tell me, was it scary to offer this kind of warranty? Brian: Yeah. Yeah, it always is. It was funny cause I had a guy from inc.com, I was doing an interview two years ago, and he asked me, "Why not lifetime warranty? Why 25?" And I thought, it was a good question, and I thought, because lifetime is so cliched; everyone says lifetime. But by putting 25 years, what I'm trying to say is, it's gonna last two and half decades. You're gonna get a lot of use out of it. And by the time they last two and half decades, you're probably gonna want another one anyhow. You know, we'll have new stuff by then. Kurt: Right. Brian: I think we put a year around it because it gives it a definitive, like, wow this is built to really last. Yes, it's built to last. Is it scary? Yeah, it is, because you do have things break. Hardware breaks, stitching fails; it happens from time to time. We repair it and take care of it, but yeah. Put it this way, I don't feel nervous about the quality we're putting out, though. Does that make sense? We got a lot of confidence behind what we're doing. Kurt: Right, if you're confident in it, it shouldn't be scary. Brian: Yeah. Kurt: If you believe in your product, you shouldn't be afraid of it. Brian: Yeah. Kurt: I mean, really, your only fear is will people abuse it? And you're always gonna get someone who does. Brian: Yeah. I mean, we started coming out with ... We found a book bindery material that lasts more than six months. We found one that lasts for years. Now, we put a one year warranty on it, but it'll last. We tell customers, it's a one year warranty, but you'll have it for years. Because we found this really tough buckram, that's really beautiful; it's used in the library of Congress. That's what we wrap our iPad cases in. Kurt: Hmm. Brian: So for us, it's all about the materials. Will they last? So I guess I'm ... No, to answer the question, I'm not too worried because we're trying to use the materials that will last. Kurt: Right. Brian: Yeah. Kurt: So you've got, you're in the process ... Well, probably by the time this airs, maybe, your Shopify store will have launched. Brian: Hard to say. Kurt: Hard to say. Maybe it has, maybe it hasn't. Brian: We actually see a delay coming because of, and you can edit this out if you want, or keep it in, I don't care. We may be unable to switch for at least a month or two because of a new iPad coming out in a few weeks. Kurt: (laughs) Cool. Brian: Because of that, we're gonna have so much lift on the site, we are very hesitant to shift platforms until the sales calm down. Kurt: So what platform are you on now? Brian: Magento. Kurt: And you're switching to Shopify Plus. Tell me- Brian: Thank God. Kurt: (laughs) Alright, so what happened? Why are you doing that? Brian: We were told early on, I had talked to a consulting group, and they said, "Oh, you should be on Magento, it's scalable, you can customize." All true, all true. I call Magento, kinda like, the PC, and Shopify is kinda like a Mac. Kurt: Hmm. Brian: That's how I see the two. I mean, you can do a lot of customization on Shopify, but it's very plug and play friendly. And for the entrepreneur who wants to start a company, the last thing you want, is to be figuring out how many hours you can pay a $150 an hour developer. Because if you have a Magento site, that's what you're doing all the time. You're paying a developer, constantly, for the smallest changes. Kurt: Right. Brian: Whereas, on Shopify, you have app store, you have plugins. We're, of course, with what we're doing, we're paying developers to help us with small projects here and there. But for the most part, it's really a lot easier to assemble a Shopify site. Magento is definitely customizable, but boy, you better have Magento Pro engineers, who are doing all your coding. They have to do all your maintenance, manage all your plugins. If you have conflicts with your plugins, that's up to you to figure it out. Shopify does all that for you. They do that thinking for you. Kurt: Right. Brian: That's something that is a huge benefit to us. We were debating Magento 2.0, last year, or Shopify, and came down on Shopify. Kurt: What was the straw that broke the camel's back, where you said, alright it's time to make the switch? Cause it is not an easy task to change platforms when you've got an existing, running business. Brian: It's not. I think, a couple things. One, we designed this site about three to four years ago, it was starting to feel three to four years old. The current site at padandquill.com if you go there right now, it's three to four years old design. And we're kinda, you know what, we need to make this a little cleaner. We've moved more into a luxury lifestyle brand. We wanna even display more large imagery about our lifestyle and what we do, and what we love. So, that was kinda the impetus to go, okay, what platform do we want it? We were thinking, originally, Magento 2.0, and then we started considering just how much technical work was required; and that's when we reached out to Shopify, and it was a pretty easy sale. Cause we were like, "Sounds good!" I mean, we'd pay a certain fee. We're on Shopify, what's it called? Shopify Plus? Kurt: Shopify Plus. Brian: Yeah, so we're paying a fee, but that's like, I already pay that fee with a developer right now to guarantee 99.9% uptime. Kurt: Right, yeah. Brian: I have to pay someone that right now. Kurt: Yeah. The thing you're trading ... It's interesting to sell, trying to explain the benefits and the value proposition of Shopify Plus to an existing Shopify store owner. They're like, "Alright." You have to figure out, like, what's the problem you're facing, and the Shopify Plus will solve it. Versus when someone is on Magento and they're looking at switching and you go, well you don't worry about, you know, for one flat fee, someone else is gonna manage and you never worry about hosting uptime, updates, security, all of that goes away, and support. Brian: Right. Kurt: And it just becomes a no brainer. Brian: And we've had security issues, just being open with you. We've had some security issues pop up because of outdated plugins. Kurt: Right, and those- Brian: And all kinds of stuff. And it was, like, an outdated plugin in a blog. Kurt: Yeah. Brian: On our Magento site. And someone had gotten in through the back door, and we caught it, fixed it. But it was one of these things where we're like, okay Shopify does all that for us. Kurt: Yeah. I have, literally, never seen a security vulnerability like that happen on Shopify. Whereas, previously we did a lot of WordPress development work, and that was like a constant, constant battle trying to keep those things locked down. Brian: Right. That's the last thing you need to be worrying about. Right? Kurt: Yeah, that's just such an unnecessary- Brian: I mean, that's the last thing. When you're designing products, you're trying to ... Cause what am I? I'm a designer. I'm a salesman. I'm a community developer. Like, we have a family of customers, that's where our focus needs to be. You know? Not on security issues on the site. Cause 98% of our revenue comes from eCommerce, our store. Kurt: Hmm. That's excellent. Brian: Yeah, we are not in wholesale. We're very much like Saddleback; we're eCommerce only. Kurt: So, we're coming to the end of our time together. You have had a long, successful, and wonderful journey over the last seven years. What are some of the things you've learned, that you would go back tell yourself when you were starting out? Brian: Oh, that's a great question. Did I tell you to ask me that question? That's a good one. Kurt: (laughs) No, no. You said what three things have you learned building a brand? Brian: Yeah. I would say this, if you have a product you're making that's starting to sell, and it's selling pretty well and you love making that product, and other products like it ... Whatever the field is, whatever you do, be very careful to not listen to consultants too much. There is wisdom in a host of counselors, there really is. But in the end, your passion has to be from you about what you wanna sell and bring to your customers. So be careful how much you listen to consult ... I did a lot of consultant listening early on, that I wouldn't do now. I would just be who I am. And the more that Kari and I have just been who we are as a couple in this business, the more success we've seen. The more we have followed what other people have told us, "Well, you're getting big now. You really need to think about strategic changes." Those are big disasters. Not disasters, that's a heavy word. Those have not been fruitful. So, be who you are. To the degree that you can do something you love, is a huge blessing, it really is. Not everyone gets that opportunity. Like I said, I was painting for 17 years. I was thankful I was able to bring in an income, but I didn't really enjoy painting. So, where you can match a passion or a desire to income, it's awesome. But it's not ... I don't think it's something you can always do. Does that make sense? Kurt: No, absolutely. Brian: I'm not trying to paint a rosy picture here, because it's pretty hard to do that. Kurt: I think it comes down to having an authentic voice, being true to yourself, being true to your brand. Brian: Yep. Kurt: The hard part is figuring out what that voice and brand are, and then letting that show through. Every time I've been scared to include more of my personality in my marketing and my work, it has always paid off. You know, people like having that authentic voice; and that's what part of the podcast is. Brian: Right. Kurt: I'm myself on the show, and then by the time someone says, "Hey Kurt, could we work together on this?" And we get on the phone, they go, "I feel like I already know you." Yeah, because the whole time, I've been myself, and that's so important. Brian: Right. That is so important. It is so important. Plus, you'll just be happier with yourself, at the end of the day. Cause you've been true to yourself, even if the business doesn't work out. You just don't guarantee that any of these businesses will succeed, right? Kurt: No, absolutely not. It's always a risk. Brian: But in the end of day, if they fail, were you yourself? Were you trying to be yourself? Yeah. Kurt: So, Brian- Brian: A good entrepreneur gets back up and says, "Okay, what can I do next?" Kurt: Yeah, you learn from it, you move on. Brian: Yep. Kurt: And try the next thing. Brian: Yep. Kurt: So Brian, where can people go to learn more about you? Brian: Yeah, so, the best place to learn about us is at www.padandquill.com. So that's our website, click on About Us if you wanna see our story in more detail; that's at the bottom of the page, About Us. You'll see a picture of Kari and I, and there's kind of our story, and kinda what drives us, our passion is very interesting as well. Also, coupon code. We have a coupon code for your listeners. Kurt: Wonderful. Brian: So bhappy. So the letter B, and then happy, H-A-P-P-Y, number 10, just one zero. That's 10% off anything, any product, including bags, leather bags as well. Kurt: And they are beautiful bags. 10%. Brian: Thank you! Thank you. Kurt: Alright, I wrote that down, I will include it in the show notes for folks. Brian: Cool. Kurt: Brian, thank you for everything. I appreciate it. Brian: Yeah, Kurt, thanks so much for having us on, and wish you best with your success on your podcast. Kurt: Thank you. That's all for us today at The Unofficial Shopify Podcast, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on this episode. So please, join our Facebook group, The Unofficial Shopify Podcast Insiders, and let me know. Or sign up for my newsletter, kurtelster.com, shoot me an email. Either way, you'll be notified whenever a new episode goes live. And of course, if you'd like to work with me on your next Shopify project, you can apply at Ethercycle. Com. As always, thanks for listening, and we'll be back next week.

Seth: Today I have the good fortune to be interviewing a very interesting business. We've got Brian Wright with us today from FA Bean Counters Dot Com. Brian, thank you so much for joining us today, and if you could introduce who you've got with you, that would be great. Brian: Yeah, thanks for having me. With me I have my co-founder, both in business and in life, Kitrina Wright, my wife. Kitrina: Hello. Seth: Hi. Mr. and Mrs. Wright. All right. I'm sure you guys get that a lot. Brian: Yes, we do. I got a lot of mileage out of that in high school with all my friends' moms. Seth: Ah, I won't take the bait on that one. How did you get started in terms of FA Bean, how did you get started in the industry, and then how did you get to FA Bean Counters? Brian: Sure. Well, I am a certified financial planner by trade, so I've been in the industry 10 plus years, working first in the banking industry and then I moved over to fee-only financial planning, working with high network clients. Then a couple of years ago, I left my job-job, where I worked for a boss-boss, and started my own firm, my own financial planning firm. Along the way, and I'm rewinding back 10 years when I started in the industry, my wife had started her own accounting practice at that time. I was working at a firm. She went out on her own, kind of started at 0 clients, and over the last 10 years has been building an accounting practice. Fast forward back to 2 years ago, I left my firm, kind of joined forces with her, started our own financial advisory practice. She had a 10 year old plus accounting practice, doing accounting, bookkeeping. She's a CPA, so those are her skill sets, accounting, tax, bookkeeping. We went into business doing the financial planning, startup for a financial planning firm. Well, during that process, we met up and we were introduced to a very influential thought leader in our industry by the name of Michael Kitces, and got to know him pretty well, he and Alan Moore as well. They're both co-founders of XY Planning Network, which is a professional network for like-minded, very tech focused financial planners all over the country, all over the world I guess, international, some members. We were introduced to them, got to know them pretty well. We are a member of that network, XY Planning Network, and just in that friendship, they approached us really and said, "Hey. There's a need in our industry for outsource bookkeeping for financial advisors. We see a huge opportunity. This is a skill set that a financial planner, although financial planners are very smart people, accounting and bookkeeping, double entry bookkeeping, debits-credits, not in the wheelhouse of most financial advisors. This is something that they could easily outsource. It's something they shouldn't be spending their time on. It's not revenue generating. They should be spending every waking moment with clients or working on clients, or trying to find clients. Bookkeeping is something they could easily outsource, and there is no one out there in the marketplace that's targeting financial advisors. There are a number of virtual bookkeepers out there, yes, but we have a lot of moving parts in our industry with compliance and things like that." They said, "We see a huge opportunity for an accounting practice targeting specifically financial advisors." He was like, "We want to launch this accounting practice. The problem is we don't know anything about running an accounting practice. Fortunately, Brian and Kitrinado." That's kind of how Bean Counters came along, just partnering with an uber-influential thought leader in a particular niche, and it was an easy question for us to answer, and easy decision to make, certainly, partnering with someone of the caliber and influential level of Michael. That's what we did last summer. Last summer we launched, Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

​【特别感谢热心听友黄善鋆帮忙听写本篇文稿】Heyang: The imperial princess, Oh No, it’s not the imperial princess, it’s actually the imperial doctress or 女医明妃传. The TV drama has been lambasted by viewers because of the validity of prescription medicines used in the drama. Are people making a fuss out of nothing or are these TV shows too far off from real practice?I know this is probably not the usual show that you guys would check out but because we are professionals, and I’m sure that you’ve looked at some of it. Do you think that the prescribed Traditional Chinese Medicine doesn’t really make sense in this show? Brian: I would say yes, because Traditional Chinese Medicine doesn’t make sense in lot of ways, but within Traditional Chinese Medicine, contrary to what some people online seem to think, it does seem that it’s largely correct actually.Liu Yan: Well, I think there so much controversy, mainly because some of the prescriptions sound pretty out there. Let’s just say, for example, there is this liquid mixture of fingernails, bird poop and earthworms used as some sort of medicine to treat a fever, just a fever. So of course, if you are one of those lazy people, who just like to watch TV shows but not actually do research, you would certainly think, Oh, this is nonsense.Brian: That’s what Weibo and Twitter, and all of these were invented for, for just spouting off your mouth without doing any thinking or research.Heyang: Yes, that’s just a wonderful example that Liu Yan just gave us. It turned out that Traditional Chinese Medicine doctors, specialists have been employed to consult and confirm with this prescription used on the show. And apparently a lot of these are kind of real, but it’s not like one hundred percent accurate to how you would, you know, perform the procedure on a patient for example. But is it really, something that we should worry about that these procedures used in TV shows are just not professional enough?Brian: Well, it bothers some people obviously. But it’s not just this sort of thing. It’s is this TV show or movie accurately portraying this relatively narrow or specialized or professional field in the right way? And a lot of the time, I know Hollywood doesn’t do things accurately. And much of it is to make things more dramatic. Sometimes this is just in the air, coz they haven’t done the research or they don’t care to do it well. But a lot of time it’s for drama, and if it’s for drama, that makes a certain amount of sense but I guess it depends on what you are looking for as a viewer. And for most people, they probably wouldn’t care too much. I would say if it is in an egregious era such that they wouldn’t just happen in reality, or that is just it would actually affect things in the plot or whatever, then yea, that’s a problem, but minor things. Nay.Liu Yan: I can definitely understand why some people are so being such sticklers. Because to them, maybe staying true to the facts is a very important factor to decide whether this is quality entertainment. But in general, I think after all this is just entertainment and you needn’t be too serious about details. However you can never underestimate the power of popular TV shows and things like that. What if people actually watch this and take it as truth and then imitate this practice?Heyang: Yes, I think that’s a legitimate question. But can I please bring to your attention that on any TV show, especially this procedural kind of or TV shows that portray a particular profession, they have, in the beginning of every episode, there is this disclaimer that all fictional characters, or you know, coincidence if something does happen if you just copy us, you know those kind of things. I mean, would people, honestly, do this like replicate what happens on the shows? Brian: Yes, absolutely!Heyang: What are these people thinking?Brian: Well that’s the question. But that doesn’t mean that’s not gonna happen. If you can think of something happening however ridiculous it might be, someone will do it somewhere online. Liu Yan: And also you have to remember that a lot of people are actually watching this type of TV shows on the Internet. So if you watch those shows on Tencent for example, you can actually set the setting so you start from the actual dialogue instead of the opening disclaimer and theme song and things like that. So I doubt that a lot of people don’t see what you have just mentioned.Brian: I think even if they see this disclaimer, it’s not gonna make a huge difference.Heyang: That’s so interesting especially with today’s topic 女医明妃传. Coz I actually went through a lot of those criticism posts, it’s just got ignorance written all over. As average viewers like myself who know very little about traditional TCM and then when I see a show like this, I have a question mark in my head and because of my lack of knowledge, when I saw a bird poop and all kinds of poop and stuff, and then you are like how could that be true? And you automatically think this doesn’t seem right, but then you know these traditional Chinese medicine doctors have come out and said, well sometimes we use these things and it’s the combination of which that can sometimes have very good effects on people.Brian: Supposedly. Heyang: Well, yeah, you are the person who can arrive at your own decision and judgment on such things. It just turned out that so many netizens like myself, I suppose, we don’t know if we think we’ve been smart and we make all these comments when you just don’t know, isn’t this a lesson for people that although the Internet is a free space for all kinds of comments, but shouldn’t you at least think twice what you were saying, at least do a little bit of research before making these statements?Brian: Yeah, I mean like a certain presidential candidate in the US, you have the right to be wrong, utterly and horribly wrong, but you should really think before you speak or tweet or microblog or whatever.Liu Yan: I have a feeling that certain candidate is a running joke on this show and people are enjoying it including Heyang especially.Heyang: Yes, the squirrel on his head? Liu Yan: Oh, it reminds me of that Chinese saying 这样真的好吗?Heyang: 很好啊. I won’t say anything wrong with it until I get a lawyer’s letter from him.

Xiaohua: Hello and welcome to Roundtable’s Word of the Week. This week we are giving out the secret of saying no.Brian: Yes. That’s right because as much as we want to be nice to everybody all the time, sometimes whether we have a good reason or a bad reason, we don’t really want to do things that people ask us to do.Xiaohua: Exactly. 所以我们今天就来聊一聊如何礼貌的拒绝别人，say no.Brian: Exactly, and there’re quite a few ways here. So first of all, we have things like “I can’t commit to this right now as I have other priorities at the moment.” This would be the case that if you might actually want to do this but you have other things going on. There’re more important things to you so it just doesn’t work right now. Maybe later though.Xiaohua: 我真的很想帮你做这件事情，但是现在还有一件更紧急的事情等着我去做。Now this basically says that you’re occupied somewhere else but you don’t need to say specifically what the thing that you’re doing at the moment is.Brian: Exactly, exactly. It’s like do I’ve got some stuff going on and that’s actually kind of similar to our second one here. You can say things like “Now’s not a good time. I’m in the middle of something. Ca we come back to this another time, or at whatever time?” And that again, very useful if you have something right now but you’d like to help later.Xiaohua: now’s not a good time. “现在这个时间非常不凑巧，我正忙着呢。” 也是一个非常简单的say no的办法. But what if that person comes back another time and asks is this a good time? Brian: Well, hopefully it is, and then if it’s not, and you have a good excuse to that, then you tell them and be very apologetic and say “I’m really sorry. This still isn’t a good time. How about this?” And then if the third time you still can’t do it, you probably should just do it otherwise it’s going to be bad.Xiaohua: Or thee other person should realize that you really do not want to do it.Brian: That’s an East-West cultural difference there perhaps. In China, it might be the case. In the West, may be, maybe not. Xiaohua: I see.Brian: And then another we have here is “I’d love to help you” or “I’d love to do this, but…” and then you give some kind of explanation there. That’s when maybe you want to do this but you have something else that prevents you from doing it, but “I can’t do this because of this and that” or you’re just kind of finding excuse there. “I’d love to, but” whatever excuse. Xiaohua: 这个 “I’d love to，but…” 句型真的是拒绝别人的时候一个非常常用的句型。Usually when somebody says “I’d really love to do it”, there’s a “but” following that.Brian: Yes. You can tell when a “but” is coming for a lot of things. Another one we have here is “Let me think about that and I’ll get back to you.” That’s kind of like a “maybe”, and again, maybe a good reason for that, maybe you actually don’t want to do that at all, but it gives you some time. You don’t have to commit to a “yes” or “no” right now. Xiaohua: “让我先想一想待会儿再回复你。”这听上去好像是拖延战术。It sounds like you don’t want to give a “no” now, but you might give out one later.Brian: Yes, or maybe later you might just say “Hey, I do want to do this.” Who knows? Next up, we have “This doesn’t meet my needs right now” or “This isn’t what I’m looking for right now, but I’ll be sure to keep you in mind.” This is kind of like if someone comes up to you and they are trying to sell something to you or give you some kind of opportunity and you’re not very interested and maybe you just want to politely turn them down, or maybe you just think “You know what? Hey, this isn’t what I’m looking for right now but in the future, that could be a good thing.”Xiaohua: 这一句话“This doesn’t meet my needs” 是比较适用于有人给你一个机会或者是让你做一件事情，但是你又不想做的时候用的。I think this is really effective because you don’t stall the person. You just tell them that it’s not okay but you keep them in mind and you appreciate their offer. Brian: Exactly. Polite and direct. And another one we have here: “You know, I’m not the best person to help on this. Why don’t you try so and so?” It’s because sometimes that really is the case. They come for you to help on this topic and you are really bad at it. Then you’re not going to be able to help them, so you suggest someone else. Of course, if you don’t want to do this, and you just want to push it off on someone else, you can also use it for that.Xiaohua: 当有的人要来问你一些根本不属于你专长的事情的时候，你就可以用这句话来搪塞啦。“这块儿我不是很熟耶，你要不要去问问那个人？”It’s just like when someone asks me a Spanish word pronunciation, I’m going to say this. Brian: Indeed, indeed. And lastly, there’s just this simple “No” or “No. I can’t.” or “Sorry. Doesn’t work for me.” That’s just when you don’t have anything else and you just got to say no.Xiaohua: 当你实在是不知道该怎样拒绝别人的时候，直接说“No”可能是最好的办法啦。And that’s all we have for Roundtable’s Word of the Week. I hope you have learnt these by heart.

Xiaohua: Hello and welcome to RoundTable’s Word of the Week. Now today Brian and I are going to talk about something food-related.Brian: That’s right. We’re talking about all the different ways to describe how good your food tastes because in Chinese you often say it’s literally “good eat” or “good taste” or whatever. For a lot of people, they’ll check the dictionary and say, “Oh, it’s delicious.” That’s a very common phrase and it’s not incorrect but the most common one, you just say, “Oh wow, that was good” or “Man, that food tastes so good.” It’s just kind of like Chinese there and it is actually a little more common than saying delicious.Xiaohua: 我们中国人在说什么东西好吃的时候，基本就说”好吃”、”真好吃。”但是呢，其实在英语里面 “Delicious”这个词并不是我们想象中的那么常用，而用最简单的 “good,” “That’s good food,” or “That tastes so good,” 倒反而是一种更加常用的用法。Brian: Exactly. And then we also get “appetizing” there. For this, you don’t actually have to use that much after you’ve tasted the food. It’s more like you walk into a room, especially if you have appetizers, but even with dinner or whatever you see on the table especially, you get the sights, and you get the smells there, and you’re like, “Man, that food looks so appetizing. I just want to get a piece of that. Can I start eating now?” Xiaohua: “Appetizing” 直接的翻译是说 “开胃的” 、”促进食欲的”。但是这个词经常使用在当我们看到卖相很好的食物的时候说的，而不是在吃进食物之后表达它有多么好吃的时候说的。We don’t want to make the mistake of gobbling something up and then say “appetizing”.Brian: That would come often as a little weird, and then another one that I personally like quite a bit is “scrumptious”, “simply scrumptious.” I feel like maybe this you might have seen this in one of those Willy Wonka movies over there, but it’s a little bit funny ‘cause it’s kind of formal but if you use it in kind of a humorous or light-hearted situation, such as “Ah! Simply scrumptious! I must have some more of that.” or you’re kind of being mock-formal and that kind of thing. But it’s definitely a compliment to whoever’s made that food for you. Xiaohua: “Scrumptious” 虽然也是在书面场合用到的词，但是当你对朋友的厨艺赞赏到 “scrumptious” 的时候，他可是会非常高兴的啊。Brian: Yes, and of course, even besides these different words here, there’re a lot of different phrases we use in English where we use these different flavors to describe something that isn’t food. For example, “a sweet tooth.” Lots of people, especially Americans, have “a sweet tooth.” That means you really like foods that are sweet, and often have a lot of sugars. Xiaohua: That’s right. 下面来讲一下跟酸甜苦辣各种味道相关的一些英文中的习语。 “A sweet tooth,” 那就是非常喜欢吃甜食。Brian: Also, we’ve got another one – “short and sweet”, or often “keep it short and sweet”, that you want to keep it nice and not too long.Xiaohua: “Short and sweet” 其实就是简明扼要的意思。I wish all the speeches in these Chinese meetings can be short and sweet.Brian: Ah, that would be nice there, but meetings are sometimes important. Also, we’ve got “sweet talk.” A lot of people have probably been “sweet-talked” at some point. They want a favor and they come up and like, “Oh, I love your outfit there. That’s just so good, and you’re looking so good today. By the way, I have this little thing, and I think it would be really good for you.” If someone’s going like that, they’re sweet-talking you.Xiaohua: “Sweet talk’”是甜言蜜语， 而且不是平常所说的恭维大家。经常在 “sweet talk’”后面还有一些等着你要干的活，或者等着你要帮的忙。Brian: Exactly, exactly. Then, we have some other flavors here, of course, like “sour,” “sour grapes,” which I think in my personal experience, it’s been more like you say “Oh, don’t be a bag of sour grapes” or whatever. You’re just kind of criticizing things and being negative without much of a use or reason.Xiaohua: “Sour grapes.” “酸葡萄。”这个字好像中文和英文的意思差不多。就是说，自己得不到什么样的东西，但是你也别老去抱怨别人。Brian: And then even besides “sour,” of course we also have “bitter.” And “bitter” is actually an interesting thing because it’s an important flavor in Chinese cuisine, but in Western, and certainly in American cuisine, it almost never comes up. So it’s a cultural difference. But we have things like “to the bitter end,” “to the very end,” all the way through whether it’s good or bad.” And often if it is “bitter,” it’s grueling, it’s long, and it’s hard work. You just have to go through all the way with it to the very end. Xiaohua: “To the bitter end” 这个词是说坚持到最后，一直到最后的意思。Brian: Yes, and besides that, we also have “spicy,” which is again, also something that’s a little more common in Chinese food than in certainly American food there, but it does come up, and it does come up in language quite a lot too. For example, “to spice things up,” to make it more interesting, or we often have to go for “sexy” as a common popular word for that. So instead of keeping things boring, doing the same thing everyday, you change something, add a little spice, and then spice things up there. Xiaohua: “Spice things up”基本上就是说让生活变得更有意思一些，或者是让这个party变得更热辣一些。Brian: And lastly, we have “the spice of life” or “variety is the spice of life,” meaning that you don’t want to do the same thing everyday so you add variety, and that is the spice of life. Xiaohua: “Spice of life” 也有点像是生活的调味剂的意思。 And that wraps up this edition of RoundTable’s Word of the Week.