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Join me as I open up in vulnerability to share my personal challenge in accepting my own shortcomings and the difficulty of relearning my own identity. 

0 (0s): Good morning. Welcome everybody. Let's all stand together, Lord. We thank you for this morning. We thank you for providing us reign. We pray that you'd be here with us, that our worship would be pleasing to you. 1 (31s): for all that you've done. 1 (3m 15s): gray. 1 (4m 5s): for all that you done for me? Jesus. 1 (4m 46s): For all that, you've done. Fool. Oh, razor razor, razor. 1 (5m 31s): me. humble ourselves worthy of 0 (14m 52s): Praise and honor, we worship you this morning. Pray in Jesus name. Amen. So like for the past eight weeks Charlene's been here and she's really polished at getting you guys to talk to one another, but I'm back. And so it's okay to be awkward. You just got to turn around and make friends, you know, it's a time to fellowship. Amen. 0 (15m 32s): Amen. All right. Good morning. Harvest Church good morning. It's a rowdy bunch this morning. 2 (15m 44s): It has it's. It's nice. It's a little chilly outside, but nice and warm in here. Hey, just want to say welcome. Glad you're here each and every one of you. Thanks for joining us online as well. Hey, if it's your first time joining us, I just wanted to let you know that we have a gift for you. If you go over to the info center right here in the breezeway between the lofts and sanctuary, we have a gift for you. We would love for you to fill out info cards. Find out more about you, just ways to plug in and just got a couple announcements. First one is the Thanksgiving baskets. Food baskets are being collected by next Sunday. Next Sunday is your last day to turn those in. So there's a list where we're just trying to love on the community of the families in our community that, you know, need a little extra help this Thanksgiving. 2 (16m 30s): So if, if, if, if you've got, if you're willing, there's a, there's a list of different food items that we're trying to collect, and that will be due by next Sunday, November 20, November 15th, next announcement. And we have this sisterhood night of worship, and that will be just Friday, November 13th at six 30 here in the sanctuary. And that is for women of all ages all the way from they said grade school to grandma's are invited to come for that. It's going to be worship sharing a fellowship and fun details can be found at AGU harvest.org/sisterhood. And it's, it's gonna be a great night. I'm excited for you. Gals. 2 (17m 11s): Next is just a few opportunities to plug in and we have some, we have a welcome team, cleaning team, kids, ministry, team safety team, and then, and then a group host or facilitator. There's all different ways to plug into Harvest Church and to get connected, you can, you can find out how to connect by going to our app or a website and plug it in that way. Dave gave me this little sheet. There is a volunteer for holiday wind ensemble as well. Dave has all the details on that. I just have a simple slip of paper. So talk to Dave, if you're interested or do you have the skills to play in the wind ensemble? I do not. So I should not talk to Dave about that. And then lastly, we Wednesday is the veteran's day. 2 (17m 53s): So we want to honor those who have served in our country. And so if you have served, we actually asked you at this time to stand up both in the loft and here in the sanctuary, just come on, keep standing up, standing, remain, standing, remain standing. We want to just take this time. We want to take this time to honor you and thank you for your service. And let's, let's just say a moment of prayer, all right, for them, Lord, we thank you for those who have served, who have put their lives at risk to protect the freedoms of those. They, they, they haven't even known Lord. 2 (18m 33s): We thank you for all those in, in this room, at home, in a line and, and throughout this country, Lord, and what do we do? We lift up this country to you at this time, Lord, with all the craziness in our, in our nation. Lord, we just ask for wisdom and direction. Lord God, thank you for those who have served in jesus' name, we pray. Amen. Thanks. You all. That's all. That's all I got. Thank you, brother. Appreciate it. 3 (19m 2s): There are flannels all over the building today, all over the campus. It's a flannel Sunday. Isn't it? It's it's been kind of cold. Hey, you notice we got some of our plumbing back in place, so that's good, right? It's good to good to have plumbing in a developed nation. It's good to have money. So we have one of the think Mike Apadaca for coming in and making sure that the black top was all fixed for us so we could drive in and out and here. So thanks to Mike and thanks to rich Brown and his crew for getting the plumbing done. They're still working on it, but we have plumbing in this building and in the loft and in the U building, we do not have plumbing yet in the parsonage, but we're getting there. So be patient with us. We we're, we're just, it's just a slow process, but the water main is fixed and the sewage line is fixed. 3 (19m 48s): And so things are getting better. We'll get rid of the port-a-potties this week. So that'll be good. Porta-potties are great if you're at a fair, but they're not growing or a carnival or something. Hey, since we've had such a wonderful time with our plumbers recently, I've got a plumbers joke. You guys ready for a plumber's joke. So this guy hires a plumber. He's got a leak under a Sikh under his sink and the guy the plumber shows up and he's underneath the sink and comes out after about an hour. And he hands the guy that hired him, a bill for $400. And the guy said, man, I'm an attorney. And I don't make that kind of money. You've been here for less than an hour. The plumber said, yeah, when I was an attorney, I didn't make that kind of money either. 3 (20m 33s): Do you guys get that? It's it's bad. Right? Okay. Good. Somebody gave that to me. I did not pay them for that joke though. So that was, that was good. We had the title of the message today as we get into Colossians, chapter three is how do we 4 (20m 48s): Follow God's word? How do we, how do we follow God's word? That's the, that's the, the million dollar question as we open up, God's word, how do we follow it? How do we do that? So let's go ahead and stand up. But we're going to pray and ask the Lord for gifts to give us wisdom as we open up the scripture. And so Laura, we want to know, we want to know how do we follow your Word as we open it up on a regular basis and try to find instruction, therefore, our lives. So often, it's just hard to walk it out. Lord, easy to read about things, hard to live it out Lord. And so I know it's my desire, and I know that it's our desire as a church to want to be able to live it out. We want to know what it means to follow and how to do that. 4 (21m 30s): So Lord, I pray that there would be really practical tools given to us today, practical and helpful tools that will give us the ability that capacity, the understanding how to, how to actually follow your Word. So God as we open our hearts and minds to that, I pray that there would just be a download from heaven God that whatever blinders we have on would be, would be would, they would just fall off Lord like cataracts. They would just fall off our eyes, Lord, whatever hardness we have in our heart around the word. And just maybe our lack of understanding about how to walk it out or our frustration with it. Lord, I pray that that would just go away as well. 4 (22m 10s): That would just melt away in jesus' name. And our hearts will be tender and ready in our minds to be excited. And we'd be hungry Lord for the things for the word of God, for the things of God. And so help us, Lord, we pray. Thank you for your presence here today. God we've already felt it in worship, Holly. That was just so powerful and so good. And, and I am praying that the balance of the service has we open up your word would be, would be the same, would just be powerful and good. And then as we wrap up with more song God that it would just, it would just put a big old exclamation Mark on this day and give us the grace to follow you and to trust you wholeheartedly. So bless us. We pray, help us. We ask Lord in Jesus name, amen. 4 (22m 51s): You can be seated and you can be, 3 (22m 53s): How do we follow God's word, number one, we're going to get right to the first point. We have to understand what the word says. When I say the word it's capital w God's word. We have to understand what the Bible says. That's, that's kind of where we, we have to start. We have to understand what it says. We're going to get into some pretty tough texts today. If you've read ahead, you, you know that it's, it's difficult stuff that we're going to be talking about today, but it's not impossible stuff. It just requires that we understand what the word says so that we can do what the word says. So we're going to do our best to explain what the Bible says about these areas of submission 4 (23m 34s): And that this text is talking about today. Nobody likes submission really. I mean, it's difficult. I kind of grates against our flesh. When we have to submit to one another, whether it be to a boss or to an 3 (23m 46s): Elder or to a spouse, we don't really run toward the idea of submission, but it is God's 4 (23m 55s): Best plan for us. 3 (23m 57s): It is absolutely God's best plan for us when we understand what God means when he tells us to do certain things. So out of the gate, I'm just going to jump into Colossians chapter three, verse 18. We're going to take a few minutes to talk about 18 and then 19, and just, and just unpack the whole chapter all the way to chapter four, verse one. That's what we're going to end up today. It says this 4 (24m 21s): Wives, you know where I'm going, right? 3 (24m 25s): Submit to your 4 (24m 27s): Husbands. 3 (24m 31s): So no tomatoes. That was wonderful. Thank you for not throwing tomatoes at me. Cause I didn't write this. I'm just happened to be preaching it today. Wives submit to your husbands as is fitting for those who belong to 4 (24m 45s): The Lord. 3 (24m 47s): I'm just going to say, and I wrote out some things because I wanted to make sure that I say that I say them properly. This is the proper order. Two things. When it comes to husbands and wives, we can't apologize for that. And we don't actually have to apologize for it. When we do, when we do what God asks us to do the right way, he's actually got a plan. He didn't just throw this out there, spitballing some, some random idea about marriage relationship. He actually has a plan that he wants us to understand for our marriage relationships. So this is the proper order to things. When it comes to husbands and wives, we can't apologize for that because when done right, there is nothing to apologize for. 3 (25m 33s): So wives submits, she submits not as one who is inferior to him. So we're not talking about superiority versus inferiority. We're not taking, talking about position. We're just talking about order of things, the order of things. So she submits not as one who is inferior. So I want us to understand that that women are not inferior to men. 4 (25m 56s): And anyway, do you hear me? 3 (25m 59s): Women are not inferior to men in any way 4 (26m 3s): Way. 3 (26m 6s): So she submits that as one who is inferior to him, nor in violation of a Christian ethics, but honoring her husband's responsibility and authority as head of the household. So God has actually placed men in charge of the household. And so that's the order of things. And we're going to understand more about what that looks like as we unpack this text, the amplified Bible says, wives, be subject to your husbands out of respect for their position as protector and their accountability to God. So men are actually what will be held accountable for our relationship with our spouse in way that we lead our wives. So wives be subject to your husbands out of respect for their position as protector and their accountability, accountability to God as is proper and fitting in the Lord. 3 (26m 57s): So God has made the man head of his wife. We don't have a slide for this next verse, but it says this first Corinthians 11 three says, but I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ. So men have a head who is Christ. The head of why of a wife is her husband. And the head of Christ is God, is there is there is God superior to the son. No they're equal. They're equal in God, they're equal in the Godhead, but yet there's an order of things. There's a submission there where Christ is submitted to the father. And we see that throughout his whole earthly life in ministry, we see him constantly submitted. 3 (27m 40s): He said, I only do what the father tells me to do. I only say what the father tells me to say. He is completely submitted, even though there's total equality at the Godhead totally equality between the father, son and the Holy spirit. How do we follow God's word? We have to understand what the word says. This is the order of things so that there can be peace and leadership, proper leadership in the home. If there's no clear leadership, strife and unrest is the result. I've seen this over and over again where there's a weather where there's a lack of leadership. There is always strife in the home. There's strife and unrest in the home when there's a lack of proper leadership, but where there is godly, loving, humble leadership, there is peace. 3 (28m 30s): So when I think of healthy male leadership and marriage, I think of pastor Ron D I do. You guys have been married for 40 years. He's got a great marriage after 40 years of being married. And if you look at Ron's life, so I've been working with Ron for about 12 or 14 years, pretty full time here at the church. And so I have a, I've had a chance to watch his life for more than a decade. And I've been so impressed with his leadership. So while Ron is the head of his household, he is so incredibly gentle. He's gentle and strong at the same time, his gentleness and his strength makes it easy for his wife DJ to submit to him most of the time. 3 (29m 14s): I'm sure even DJ has a hard time submitting at times, but because Ron is gentle and strong at the same time, it makes it easier for his wife to submit to him. Ron is also gracious. He is humble, he's loving and he's fun. And Ron is the same person in the office that he isn't at his home. He's, he's just, he's just faithful through and through. He's a godly man full of grace. That means he extends grace. And so because all of these things are true, it makes it easier for his wife to submit to him. I would say that Ron is a great model for us as men, as husbands, man, we will do well to model our leadership after pastor Ron. 3 (30m 2s): I think it's just helpful to have a real life person that we can look to and model our leadership after our role, as leader of the home. 4 (30m 12s): All right. What does submission look like? 3 (30m 16s): And what does submission look like? Wives are to submit to their husbands as long as submission, as long as submission doesn't cause disobedience or compromise to God and his word. So women have a responsibility to submit to their husbands. As long as that submission doesn't violate their submission, their ultimate submission, 4 (30m 34s): Two God 3 (30m 38s): Wives are to submit to their husbands voluntarily. It should be done as, as an active obedience to the word of God, to the person of God. And I also want to say that even as wives submit volunteer voluntarily to their husbands, they're not to submit to men in general that that's not what the Bible says. It doesn't say that women are to submit to men in general. Now, if there's a leadership thing that requires a woman to submit to a man, that's fine. But there's also times when there's there's men who need to submit to the leadership of a woman. What the scripture is talking about here in Colassians. It's not saying, Hey, women are submitted to, or to be submitted to all men. 3 (31m 21s): It says that women are to be submitted to their husbands. That's what the scripture says. So the wife is to submit volunteer voluntarily to her husband, not to men in general. This is kind of what submission looks like. Submission is not to be abandoned when the husband makes a mistake. In other words, per perfection is not the make or break factor. When deciding to submit, sometimes women will submit as long as their husband is doing well or making wise choices, your husband is not going to be perfect. I'm a husband for the last 30 years. I can, I can tell you that we're not going to be perfect across the board, but even when in our imperfection, it's important that wives submit to their husbands, trusting that the Lord is leading the man. 3 (32m 3s): Even if he's making mistakes, there's ultimately God's plan we'll we'll we'll come to fruition or we can trust that God will will help. Even when our husbands are making mistakes, even when men are making misses. 4 (32m 16s): I hope I said that correctly. All right, husbands, you're next? You thought you were getting off the hook today, right? You were so on the hook today. So 3 (32m 28s): Even as I talked about the role of a godly husband and, and, and pointing to Ron, as an example, husbands verse 19 says you're to love your wives and never them harshly. What if you love your wife as Christ loved the church and never treat her harshly, she won't have much problem submitting 4 (32m 48s): To you. She just won't. 3 (32m 51s): She is won't most, most women want to submit to a godly man who loves them and treats them well. The amplified Bible says this in Colossians three 19, husbands love your wives with an affectionate sympathetic, selfless love. That always seeks the best for them, Then that good man, we have this huge responsibility as leaders of our home to make sure that we're leading the way that God would have us to leave and do not be in a lead in the way that God would have us to lead and do not be in bittered. The amplified continues do not be in bittered or resentful toward them towards your wife. 3 (33m 34s): Because of the responsibility 4 (33m 35s): Marriage, we have a huge responsibility is as husband. 3 (33m 42s): How do we follow God's word? We have to understand what the word says. Number one, number two, we have to approach the word with humility and teachability. As we rely on the power of the Holy spirit to give us the grace to follow. This is part of the deal. We will never effectively follow God's word. If we don't approach the word of God with humility, with teachability, relying on the power of the Holy spirit to give us the grace 4 (34m 8s): To follow. So husbands, if you're having a hard time, loving your wife, pray, pray, and then obey. 3 (34m 19s): I'm going to give you a 14 different ways that you can love your wife. 14 tangible ways that you can love your wife. So get out your pen. 4 (34m 29s): So I write this down and I, 3 (34m 35s): We should've put your name in the, in the place of love. So I put love is love is love is 14 times. And so I'm going to say for me, I'm going to put the, my name in there. So where it says love is patient. 4 (34m 49s): I'm going to say Steve is patient. Alright. Mike is patient. Rod is patient. Larry is patient. Love is patient. Love is patient love is patience. It requires a great deal of patience to express the kind of love that God would have us love our wives with we, we have to be patient. Yeah. 3 (35m 17s): With our spouses. They're different people than we are. They think differently. Not worse, not better, just different 4 (35m 24s): Love is patient. So put your name in there. I will be patient love is kind. Steve is kind, that's my, that's my directive, the Lord that I will be patient. And I will be kind. When you figure out how to be kind to your wife, the sky's the limit, your, your marriage will be amazing. Some men are just jerks to their wives. We don't treat our wives the way that they deserve to be treated. We must be kind to them. 4 (36m 6s): We must absolutely be kind to our wives. So Steve is kind, love is not jealous. Love is not boastful. Love is not proud. Love is not rude. Love does not demand its own way. Love is not irritable as guys, sometimes we give ourselves permission to do all of these things. We've had a rough day, so I'm irritable. 4 (36m 47s): You don't have permission to be irritable. So when you're irritable, acknowledge the fact that you're irritable and get over yourself because God is bigger than your irritability. I'm telling you from experience. I used to be more irritable than I am now. I'm not perfect, but I'm not quietly. Quite as irritable as I used to be right, is I recognize that I can't be irritable to my wife and expect her to lovingly submit to me. And I can't be irritable to my wife and expect to have a good marriage. She's not, it's just may have an okay marriage. We may get by and not go through a divorce. 4 (37m 29s): But as that though, the high water Mark that we want is that we, we just want to not divorce. Holy cow, their marriage is meant to be delightful and wonderful and life giving your spouse is actually meant to be your very best friend, the person that you want to be with more than any other person. 0 (37m 57s): Yeah. 4 (37m 57s): And yet we're irritable and rude and proud at times. If you catch yourself in that place, catch yourself and don't give yourself permission to be in that place any longer. Maybe you need to take a longer path home, but drive home so that you can kind of get all of the junk from the Workday out of your system. Pray through, say, Lord, I'm going to, I'm getting ready to go home. And I don't want to be irritable. When I get home, I've had a terrible day. I don't want to carry this into my, my home life. So you pray on your way home, turn off the radio. When you pray or turn on Christian worship music and you worship, but out of your system, but you can't go home irritable 0 (38m 39s): Or rude and expect your marriage to be good. You want your, 4 (38m 44s): We should be good. Do you want your sex life to be good? Fix 0 (38m 46s): All that stuff. I'm telling you, 4 (38m 49s): Everything gets fixed. When you go home with the right attitude, 0 (38m 56s): It's not irritable. 4 (38m 57s): It keeps no record of being wronged. Keeping a ledger, mentally, emotionally in your hearts, 0 (39m 7s): Keeping 4 (39m 7s): A ledger of all the time did you've been wrong? Burned that thing. It is. It is like a cancer in your relationship. Love keeps no record of being wrong. Love does not rejoice about injustice, but rejoices when the truth wins out. So love does not say I told you 0 (39m 28s): So 4 (39m 31s): There's no room for that kind of garbage in our relationship. That kind of ah, love rejoices. When the truth wins out, we're not trying to catch each other misstepping or making a mistake. We're not trying to catch each other, doing the wrong thing. We're trying to catch each other, doing the right thing and celebrate that leverage choices when the truth wins out. So when you see your spouse doing something, that's great. Thank them. And praise them for that. 0 (39m 59s): Spouse makes you breakfast. Say thank you, 4 (40m 6s): Your spouse, presses your underwear. Say thank you. Say thank you. Just be grateful, 0 (40m 19s): Right? Have 4 (40m 19s): An attitude of gratitude with everything in your relationship. Just say, just say, thank you. Thank you. Goes a long way. Hey, thanks babe. For making me a lunch. 0 (40m 29s): Right? Thanks 4 (40m 31s): For irony. My shirt. Thanks for keeping the house clean. I noticed you. You cleaned the house today. Thank you. Hey, thanks for taking such good care of our kids by really appreciate how you love our grandkids, 0 (40m 47s): How you invest 4 (40m 48s): In them. That just means so much to me. 0 (40m 49s): Thank you for that. Acknowledge out loud, 4 (40m 54s): The wonderful parts of your partner acknowledge out loud to them and let them know how much you value them and care for them. Love never gives up. You say I've tried all of this stuff and it just keeps backfiring. Keep going, keep going. Pray for a tender heart for your spouse and women wives. When you, when you begin to see your husband change and begin to adopt some of this truth, this revelation from the, from God's word, man, run to it. The ways that I'm asking men to love their wives, wives, I'm asking you to love your husbands the same way. So while I'm putting them in on the hook here, I'm also putting you on the hook. 4 (41m 37s): Your marriage will be amazing. It will be better than it's ever been. 0 (41m 44s): 4 (41m 50s): 30 years of marriage. I tell you, our marriage is better than it's ever been. 30 years. Sometimes we think it just kind of winds down till we die. Just kind of like, Hey, it started out good. It's this kind of white, white wine itself down. No, man, it can be ramping up. Never gives up. Never loses. Faith is always hopeful. Love endures through every circumstance. I wish I could say I made all these up, but they're right in first Corinthians 13, first Corinthians 13 helps us to understand what it means to love one another. 4 (42m 31s): This is the way that God loves us. And he said, I love you this way. Go and love others this way. How do we follow God's word? We have to understand what the word says. It means we have to crack it open. We have to get that Bible opened up every day and understand what it says. And even if you're only reading a little bit, get it in your heart, get it in your mind. We have to approach it. We have to open up God's word. We have to get into it with humility and teachability, not checking a box saying, Hey, I read my proverb of the day or my Psalm of the day. I check the box. What did it say? And what did it speak to your soul? 4 (43m 12s): What does it speak to your spirit? Approach it with humility and teachability is we rely on the power of the Holy spirit to give us the grace to follow. I say this all the time. Everything that God asks us to do in his word requires the supernatural power of the Holy spirit at work in us to get it done. I can't love my wife this way, this way, unless God's loving through me. And last I'm also experiencing the love of God this way and acknowledging and recognizing it that his, he is so patient with me. God, God has never been rude or irritable with me. 4 (43m 53s): He just isn't. He's just not that way. He challenges me through the Word and through the spirit, he'll convict my, my, my life of sin of bad judgment. He'll he'll challenge me, but I never feel beat up by the process. I'm always like Lord. Yes. Thank you. Right? That's that's we don't have to roll over with our spouses, but man, when we, when there's time to bring correction or challenge or a hard conversation, but it needs to be done with love. Don't be irritable. Won't serve your purposes. It won't won't help your marriage. Next first we're done with husbands and wives. 4 (44m 37s): Can we all breathe? There's enough there to last us for the rest for the next 30 years. Amen. Children obey your parents for this pleases, the Lord children obey, always obey your parents for this pleases, the Lord. And then the kids are like, God got it. I thought I was going to get out of this and not have to be held, held accountable here. What does obedience look like? As far as it pleases the Lord children always obey your parents as far as long as it pleases the Lord. If a parent is asking a child to do something immoral, illegal, the child has absolutely has absolutely has the responsibility to disobey, to not do what their parents are asking him to do to do this is God's design. 4 (45m 26s): This is what I think God's design is. God's design is that godly parents would lead well. Their children with integrity, humility, kindness, and good boundaries. And by the way, those 14 things, you can love your kids the same way you love your kids the same way. Let me read that again. God's design is that godly parents would lead well, their children with integrity, humility, kindness, and good boundaries so that children will grow up understanding godliness and the biblical difference between right and wrong parents. You want to lead in such a way that you parents, you want to lead in such a way that you would want your kids to grow up and treat and raise your grandchildren the same way. 4 (46m 12s): I've got five grandkids. And I want my kids to raise my grandkids really well. And they're doing a great job by the way. 0 (46m 20s): 4 (46m 27s): Parents in such a way that your kids though, they may disagree or not understand. Now we'll be able to one day see that you were right. So right now they don't have the capacity to, to see the reasons for the decisions that are made. They just don't. They don't, they don't see any more than, than we understand all of God's ways for, for the way that he parents us. We just don't understand. We don't have the capacity. So don't parent haphazardly. Don't love conditionally don't have favorites or show favoritism, be consistent, be humble, be loving, be gracious. 4 (47m 9s): Verse 21 says, fathers do not aggravate your children, or they will become discouraged. It's tough to parent. It's tough to figure out how to parent kids who are going through adolescents and going through hard stuff. It's tough to parent, little toddlers who were getting into everything. It's tough to parents, kids through all of their stages of life, but God's grace will give us the ability to do it in such a way that they won't be discouraged. They can get corrected, but not be discouraged. They can, they can have boundaries, but not be discouraged. They can understand, even as a, as a young child, they can understand. 4 (47m 53s): And through adolescents that they're being disciplined because they are loved. They're being raised in a, in a loving atmosphere, Ephesians six, four in the amplified, it says fathers do not provoke your children to anger. Do not exasperate them to the point of resentment with demands that are trivial or unreasonable or humiliating or abusive, nor by showing favoritism or indifference to any of them in difference, but bring them up tenderly with loving kindness in the discipline and instruction of the Lord. 0 (48m 28s): Okay, 4 (48m 28s): This is heavy stuff. Isn't it? It's like really strong directives for us in our relationships. It's not easy stuff, but it's what the Bible says. And if we give it an opportunity, we'll have great families. And maybe you're here today. And you say, man, I've already blown it. It's too late. Start doing all of this stuff now with your adult kids, with your, with your grown kids. And if it's too late and they just don't want to have anything to do, we do with you just let the grace of God wash over you. Just repent of it. We've all sinned and fall short of God's glorious standard. So just say, Lord, I, man, I wish I would have, I I've. I limit some of the things that I did as a young parent Lord. I wish I would have raised my kids differently. 4 (49m 8s): In some areas I do God's grace was sufficient and they turned out really well, but I'm wishing, I wish I would've done some things differently, but God's grace is sufficient and I've had to go back and apologize to my kids. For some things. My daughter brought it up recently a few years ago, we, we all sat our kids, my wife and I, we sat our kids down. I forgot we had done this, but she brought it up to me and we sat and they were all adults at that point. And we just apologize for any pressure that we, we might've put them put on them as, as pastors, kids, kids have enough pressures without having pressure from because of what their parents do. Holy cow. 4 (49m 49s): And so we, we weren't sure if we had put any undue pressure on them, but we want to make sure that we apologize in case we had. So we said, well, we don't, we don't know if we did a great job with you guys. Well, I'm sure we made some mistakes. And so we just want, we just want to say, sorry, will you forgive us? And, and there was grace extended there and, and health restored, maybe in areas where health needed to be restored. So maybe you've made mistakes. You have, if you're human, you made mistakes. You do, you have a pulse. Yeah, you do. You've made a mistake. So, so just be humble and apologize for that and watch what the Lord will do to restore relationships. 4 (50m 32s): Maybe you've got a broken relationship with adult kids that have been going on for, for decades. I grew up with an absentee father, absentee father, and he was just, he was gone my whole life, some, a couple of times growing up and, and he's, he's kind of in his own way. Apologize. It has been helpful. It's kind of acknowledged, you know, and he made some knucklehead moves along the way and, and in his own way, he's kind of apologized and that has to be good enough. Right. And he's listening in dads. So that's, Hey dad, that's good enough. He always listens to my sermons, talk about him. 4 (51m 16s): And he's like, Hey, you probably didn't want me listening in today. Did you? I said, no, I want you to listening in dad. So in his own ways, he apologized for his own past mistakes. And that's good enough. We need to extend grace because even some of the policy, some even sometimes we don't even know how to apologize. Well, but if we can just get to the heart of what's being tried, we have, what is being said is just extended grace, your relationships with your parents and your grandparents and your kids and your grandkids will just be better. Children will have a much easier time obeying if they're obeying good and godly parents, not perfect parents, but good and godly parents. And they'll know the difference. They may not understand it now, but as they get older, they will understand the difference. 4 (52m 1s): Children. Even if your parents aren't good and godly, you still need to obey them. 0 (52m 7s): I do 4 (52m 10s): Obey them with humility, with humility and trust as you obey God's direction for your life. No perfect parents. So trust the Lord as you do his will. All right, let's get off the family a little bit and talk about slaves. 0 (52m 29s): How much time we have, we got time. 4 (52m 32s): 22 Colossians three says slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything that you do, try to please them all the time. Not just when they are watching you serve them sincerely because of your reverent fear of the Lord. So slavery in our culture is not really a thing. Although in the, in the world, it's a thing. It's a, it's a very real thing. One commentator wrote while slavery is certainly undesirable. And I would S I would add slavery is not just undesirable. Slavery is it's it's deplorable. No person should own another person. The commentator wrote while slavery is certainly undesirable undesirable. 4 (53m 14s): Paul goes, Paul's goals did not include restructuring social institutions. So we often wonder why didn't Paul directly attack the institution of slavery. Well, God had other goals for him. This is what I wrote. 3 (53m 30s): God's goal. Isn't always to restructure social institutions. His goal is to make disciples who will through their godliness point, people to a better way of living. And in that call some to the work of restructuring social institutions. 4 (53m 44s): Well, my thoughts go to William Wilberforce, 3 (53m 49s): William Wilberforce, as a British politician, philanthropists, and leader of the movement to abolish the slave trade and native of York Shire. He began his political career in 1780, eventually becoming an independent member of parliaments in 1785. He became an evangelical Christian, 4 (54m 9s): Which 3 (54m 9s): Resulted in major changes to his lifestyle and a lifelong concern 4 (54m 13s): For reform. Yes, 3 (54m 17s): God is first and foremost concerned for the reform of individually 4 (54m 23s): God 3 (54m 24s): God is concerned for the reform of individuals. And he knows that the reform of culture can follow. As individuals are reformed. Paul's major concern was not restructuring social institutions. His major concern was the discipleship of 4 (54m 38s): Men and women. And 3 (54m 40s): Out of that, out of that, God would call people to reform social 4 (54m 45s): S social issues. And so 3 (54m 51s): Some of you are called to reform social injustices, and some are called to other things. And I would just ask you to figure out what you're called to Paul understood what he was called to. And he kept that in his sights, 4 (55m 6s): Listen to what he wrote 3 (55m 7s): In first Corinthians seven, seven through 24, 4 (55m 11s): He said, 3 (55m 12s): Verse 17, excuse me. He said, each of you should continue to live in whatever situation the Lord has placed you and remain as you were when God first called you. This is my rule for all of them 4 (55m 24s): Churches, for instance, a man who was circumcised 3 (55m 27s): Before he became a believer, should not try to reverse it. And the man who was uncircumcised when he became a believer should not be circumcised 4 (55m 35s): Now 3 (55m 37s): For it makes no difference whether or not a man has been circumcised. The important thing is that he keeps God's commandments. Yes. Each of you should remain as you were, when God called you, 4 (55m 47s): Are you a slave? Don't let that worry you. But if you get a chance to be free, take it. 3 (55m 55s): And remember, if you were a slave, when the Lord called you, you are now free in the Lord. And if you are free, when the Lord called you, you are now a slave of Christ. God paid a high price for, you said, don't be enslaved by the world. Each of you, dear brothers and sisters should remain. As you were when God has called, when God first called, 4 (56m 14s): How do we follow God's word? We have 3 (56m 16s): To understand what the word says. We have to invest our heart and mind in the word, and we have to do it. We have to approach that Word word of God with humility and teachability is we rely on the power of the Holy spirit to give us the grace to follow it. Number three, we have to believe the Word that we have a master in heaven. Often. We don't believe that this is true. We're going to see this in the text. We have a master in heaven, and we have a Lord in heaven. We come to faith in Jesus. If we confess that Jesus is Lord and believe in our heart, that God has raised him from the dead. We shall be saved. If we confess the Lordship of Jesus Christ, that's the first step of being saved. Confessing the Lordship of Jesus Christ. We have a master in heaven. Who's, who's telling us how to live our lives, and it's not negotiable. 3 (57m 2s): It's not a pick and choose scenario. We read the Bible, we understand it. We do what it tells us to do. That's just the way God designed the scripture for us sees everything. And he knows everything. And he's just in fare. And he's given us things to do hard things to do. These are, these are not these. This has not been an easy text to preach through. These are hard things that God asks us to do, and they require real heart change, real transformational change so that we can align our lives with his word back to Colossians. Paul wrote work willingly at whatever you do as though you were working for the Lord, rather than for people. 3 (57m 48s): And so we're not in a slavery economy of slavery situation in our culture, but we all have employers. Most of us are working and we have people that we work for. So we can overlay this verse in our risk, in our responsibility to our employers, work willingly at whatever you do as though you were working for the Lord often, we're like, I'm not, I'm not doing a good job because I don't like my boss as a Christian. That's not, that's not even an option as a Christian. That is not even an option. You have to work as though you're working for the Lord. Christians should be the best possible employees in a, in a workplace often. 3 (58m 33s): It's not the case though. Christians aren't having good erect. We don't have a good reputation in the workplace because sometimes we can be lazy or we, we excuse our behavior because we don't like our boss or the circumstances. Listen, we need to work as though we're working for the Lord, rather than for people remember that the Lord will give you an inheritance as your reward and that the master you are serving as Christ. So it's not just a Sunday morning. I submit to God scenario. It's a 24 seven. I submit to God scenario. It's 24 seven. Like I always submit to God, that's the goal like the Lord I'm going to submit to you no matter what. So whoever I'm working for, I'm going to submit to that person and work for them as though I'm working for you, Lord, because you're my, you're 0 (59m 22s): My master. First one, 4 (59m 25s): If I, but if you do what is wrong, you will be paid back for the wrong you've done for God has no favorites. And then our last verse, Colossians four, one masters, be just and fair to your slaves. Remember that you also have a master in heaven. So there's two sides to every coin wives. You gotta submit to your husbands husbands. You have to love your wives. Following those 14 things that I talked about in first Corinthians from first Corinthians 13, 0 (1h 0m 3s): 4 (1h 0m 7s): We have this powerful responsibility and powerful opportunity to align our relationships in such a way that God has honored in such a way that divorce isn't an option divorce isn't even on the table because we're so in love with each other, that it's not even something that we would consider. It's not always easy to follow God's word, 0 (1h 0m 33s): But 4 (1h 0m 33s): If you will try to understand it and approach it with humility and teachability, while relying on the power of the Holy spirit, to give you the grace to follow, we can trust that our master in heaven will take care of all of our needs. So some of us are married to hard people. 0 (1h 0m 55s): So this stuff isn't easy. 4 (1h 0m 58s): I don't pretend that it's easy. Everything that God asks us to do requires the power of the Holy spirit at work in our lives. It's doable when we've got the power of God at work in us and with us and through us, it's doable. It's doable. All of the impossible things or the seemingly impossible things that we read in scripture are doable. When the power of the Holy Spirit's at work in our lives, all of these things are possible. All of the things that God leads us to do in his word from Genesis to revelation are doable and possible. When we rely on the power of the Holy spirit, when we're approaching the word of God with humility and teachability filled with the Holy spirit. 4 (1h 1m 40s): So maybe you're here today and you just need a fresh infilling of the Holy spirit. I'm just going to pray that over us, that we'll be freshly filled Ephesians five talks about our need to be constantly filled with the Holy spirit. Somehow we leak, I guess we leak and we need to be refilled. So I'm going to pray that the Holy spirit will fill us to overflowing so that we can have the capacity to believe God for the things that he's instructed us in his word. Does that sound good? Go ahead and stand up. And if you're here and you need a new filling of the Holy spirit, just raise your hand. I'm not gonna make you come forward, but if you're here and you just say, Lord, I pray for those whose hands are up. God my hands are up. 4 (1h 2m 23s): God I, I feel like I need it like multiple times throughout the day. I just need to be refilled. Somebody cuts me off on the freeway and I'm angry and I need to be refilled. Lord, forgive me for that. Lord does have a bad thought, Lord, forgive me for that Lord. I'm up against a hard situation. I need to be refilled with the Holy spirit. God, do you know the scenario of everybody's life here? The relationships that they're in, the problems that they're face, the difficulties that they, that they're up against Lord. I just pray that each, each person would just feel in a real, tangible it, if possible, just physically and spiritually, that we would feel your presence. 4 (1h 3m 8s): Just filling us with grace and power to do what you've asked us to do. Lord and, and belief and confidence and faith Lord in the things that you've asked us to do, believing God that ultimately it will, it will, it will be good for us Lord. So God, each of us, we, we have our hands up and we just ask God that as we stand here, prayerful Lord, that you would fill us and that's, you would continue to fill us daily as often as we need it. Lord God for the task, for the responsibilities in front of us, God help us to be great husbands and great wives and great employees. 4 (1h 3m 53s): Great employers, Lord, help us to be just incredible Lord. And as we trust you with our lives, Lord God, as we worship, help us to worship Lord in spirit and in truth. And I there's just something powerful that happens when we worship, when there's just, there's just an anointing, a filling that happens, Lord, I just pray God that you would fill us and anoint us for your good works. The good works that you've called us to today. Pray that none of us would be overwhelmed, but we just have the strength to do it. We'd have the faith to do it. So help us, Lord. We pray. Thank you for this time. Lord in Jesus name. Amen. Amen. Let's worship 1 (1h 4m 36s): was ballroom God has the with the melody, with deliverance from me. 1 (1h 11m 13s): I'm no, Lord. 1 (1h 15m 19s): It's only by some crazy miracle. It's hard for us. We receive Steve Bray. We asked for your power to walk in your ways to live. As you want us to live to love people. As you want us to look, we asked for your power this morning. We thank you. We praise you Jesus name. Amen. 1 (1h 16m 0s): Thank you guys for coming to church today for tuning in online, have a great week.

Reach Robert at Linfield National Golf Club: www.linfieldnational.comTRANSCRIPTDiane Dayton  0:02  This is Changing the Rules. A podcast about designing the life you want to live, hosted by KC Dempster and Ray Loewe, the luckiest guy in the world.KC Dempster  0:13  Good morning, everybody. Welcome to Changing the Rules. This is KC Dempster and Ray Loewe is with me and we are speaking to you from Wildfire Podcast Studios in beautiful downtown Woodbury. And I have to say, it is a beautiful, beautiful day on unlikely weather for November, but I am embracing it. Because I'm one of the luckiest people in the world. And I planned my life to be this way.Ray Loewe  0:43  Okay, good for you. You know, I you mentioned that we're sitting here at beautiful Wildfire Podcast Studios. And I need to make a quick comment about this, because Wildfire has been a wonderful partner with us. You know, we started doing podcasts a little over a year ago, we had no experience, we had no idea what we're doing. We still don't know what we're doing. Okay,KC Dempster  1:07  Speak for yourself.Ray Loewe  1:08  But But what happened here is that Wildfire led us through the process. And we have a comfortable situation right now. We come down here every other Tuesday and, and record and our engineer Taylor has been wonderful and the people that we've been dealing with has been wonderful. So you know, if you're thinking about doing a podcast at some point in time, start with Wildfire. It's, it's it's a you'll never leave. Right? Okay. All right. So we have a guest today. His name is Robert Kleckner. And, Robert. Just say hi. You're not on yet. But say hi.Robert Kleckner  1:45  Good morning, everybody.Ray Loewe  1:47  You had to change it Didn't you see? See Robert is one of those who changes the rules. Yeah. All right. And he'll do whatever he wants to do. So when we have this podcast called Dhanging the Rules, it is based around some of the luckiest people in the world. And we define the luckiest people in the world as those people who plan and design their own life. And then they step into it, and they make it work. Right. And you're gonna see in a couple minutes as we go through Robert's story here that he is very definitely one of the luckiest people in the world. And let's start with a quick break here, Taylor, and then we're gonna move right into our interview with Robert.Diane Dayton  2:31  You're listening to changing the rules with KC Dempster and Ray Loewe, the luckiest guy in the world. We will be right back with more exciting information.Ray Loewe  2:41  Okay, I'm on right, KC?KC Dempster  2:43  Yes.Ray Loewe  2:43  Okay. All right. So I had the opportunity to meet Robert a good 20 plus years ago, okay. And Robert was at that time, a professional golfer, he still is a professional golfer. But over over time, Robert made some strategic moves with I, which changed his life, it's gonna change his family's life very much for the positive, because he's done all the things that the luckiest people in the world to do. So Robert, say hello again. And talk to me a little bit about Linfield National in a general sense, and then we'll get into how you managed to wind up there.Robert Kleckner  3:27  Well, good morning, everybody. And it is an absolutely beautiful day, inside and out. And a little bit about Linfield National Golf Course. So I've been at Linfield for 19 years now, an 18 hole public golf course, located right up before 22, Carter, probably about 15 miles from King of Prussia. And it opened in 1997. And as I said, I've been here since '01. So it's been a tremendous, tremendous facility and place to say I come to work every day.Ray Loewe  4:03  Well, I think it's a little more than just coming to work because you actually own Linfield Golf Course, don't you?Robert Kleckner  4:11  That's correct. So I arrived here in '01 prior to 9/11. And I owned another 9 hole facility at the time. And I sold that and I came in here with two builders. And I ran a couple facilities for the builders. And then in '08, you know, things went sideways, and for building and construction and the economy and I took a negative and turned it into an opportunity. And then in 2012 I settled on the facility. And from that point on, I've been the sole owner of the property and the golf course.Ray Loewe  4:54  Okay, so let's break this thing into two pieces because I think you have two lives here. One is you're a professional golfer, right? And number two, you're an entrepreneur. Okay? So So let's talk about this entrepreneur kind of a thing, because here you are, I know, I helped you go through this. But it was 20 years ago, and you had this opportunity to purchase this golf course. And what kind of goes through your head or went through your head, when you had to make these decisions and, and take some risk in order to get the rewards that you want to get?Robert Kleckner  5:35  Yeah, so there's many, many, you know, paths or rivers, or everyone explain why this, why this happened. So in '08-09, they were looking, they stopped building things were going very into the economy for the construction was was not in a very good state. And they stopped paying me here. So I was looking at, at possibly getting out of golf business totally. The head professional jobs are few and far between, you know, we're in an oversaturated market at the time of golf courses. And, and I wanted to go primarily into back into the private sector, to be head professional, which that's where I came from. And I looked at other jobs outside of the golf business, whether it was going to be with with gambling, or Wawa or financial institution, insurance company, a lot of people had opportunities for me to, to segue out of the golf industry, and, and go into a different line of work totally, but still using my skills of dealing with people. And I think that's kind of how this all kind of transpired and formed out. So I decided to take it upon myself, I talked to my wife, and she said, I was crazy. Um, when she tells me that a lot, and I went out looking for banks, which in '08, '09, no one wanted, no one would touch this place with a 10 foot pole, or, or six, or in these times six feet. So no one would touch me. And so I shopped the banks. But I shopped the banks, like, I wanted them, I was interviewing them, and then instead of them interviewing me, and in that perspective, I had a lot of banks come back to me. And then I signed an agreement of sale in 2011. And settled in 2012, and then 2013, the economy and everything else started turning in the right direction. And so my toughest obstacle, I'm doing this by myself and not going for any other partners or anyone else. For funds or funding. The toughest thing was the was the hurdle, the bank, but I established a great relationship with a small bank, and still customer to this day. And that's kind of you know, in a quick, quick story on how that all work. There was many, many things I was told 20 times, I couldn't do it. I was told no by many, many people, this isn't going to work, you're not going to be able to do this. But I never stopped trying. Um, and I think that was the biggest thing is I never took no for an answer. And yes, I am a golf professional, and an entrepreneur but I always say I'm an entrepreneur that ended up being a golf professional. So I always had this in  me um, I always had ownership, I always had business sense. I always had wanted to own something, whether it was a Life is Good t shirt store to a candy shop that I I found down in, in in in Kiowah Island, I thought was amazing. So just something like that. And I don't think I set like a passing Oh, I'm going to own a golf course one day, I think just all the hard work on the day to day, day to day day to day, like training for a marathon. You train every day. And then you go out and you run it and I trained every day not realizing I can run it and and it all came through. And a lot of good people I worked at three high end private country clubs around the Philadelphia area and my network is phenomenal. And I never even knew what the word network meant. Or until I got through at all. And I've tremendous amount of people that you can say network I call them friends, friend work. I think they're they're all they're all friends of mine. I could pick up the phone at all levels in the in the community around Philadelphia. And it's pretty cool. I've been as I said, lucky I am lucky. I love coming to work every day. I go on vacation. and I miss this Place. So super fortunate. But I have a great, great family foundation with my parents, and then my wife and my two children, which everyone's always been so supportive, and I think that makes makes it a lot easier being in the golf business or running any business. The Home Front, you know, some days, the business comes first, some days, I come first some days, the family comes first. And I think that's the balance in any successful relationship business. Friendship, there has to be a balance, because it goes one sided one way some one of those areas will and definitely will suffer.KC Dempster  10:39  Right? Right. Just this is an aside, do either one of your children play golf.Robert Kleckner  10:45  Ah, my son just started.KC Dempster  10:48  And how old is he,Robert Kleckner  10:49  He is a three sport athlete. He is 15. And then he, he actually made the varsity team, but he you know, he just you know, he's a three sport athlete, and he just picked it up. But they, they, they both this was definitely a home for them for COVID they came up here door and the closing show, they were super blessed. Even though I was closed for seven and a half weeks, from March until May 1, they came up here I still came to work every day. As as so I was blessed. I wasn't open. But we did a lot of projects, the kids could do stuff, they could get on on on their laptops and do school from, you know, from from here. And then when we opened we just, you know, then they were they put some hours in because the sports were basically all canceled. And so they had a lot of time. So they were they were blessed by being and I was blessed to have them be here around me and being able to work and being able to get out and you know, be a little social as best they could not around their friends and peers at school, but at least they had an opportunity. So So back to the question, Bobby does play a little golf. Wendy does play a little and Addie does play little. So they all play a little bit. But they they don't. You know, they, they have their own little paths that they're looking at, which is great. Yeah, which I want them. I want them to create their own path. Sure, I don't want them to create a path for them to come back and say, Okay, I'm gonna run this golf course you take it over, if they finish all their schooling, and they get all the right things in line, and they come back and they want to purchase this from me, then then that would be an option. But other than that, they they're gonna come up with their own careers at this point,KC Dempster  12:37  right? It has to be their choice.Ray Loewe  12:38  Cool. You know, let's take a minute and talk a little bit about golf as a sport, because I know when I was growing up, it was the it was the sport of country clubs, okay. And a lot of people I know, played all the time, it was a major thing to do. And then, several years ago, I heard that golf was kind of losing its esteem. Because it's so complicated. And if you're going to be any good at the sport, you got to play a lot. And it was frustrating to a lot of people me, especially by the way, okay. And I understand they were taking golf courses, and they were turning them into different kinds of things. So So what's happening with the sport of golf right now? And where is it going? And how is this gonna affect you going forward?Robert Kleckner  13:26  Well, I definitely think what has happened since May 1, when we reopened in the state of Pennsylvania, it definitely was a shot of steroid into the golf industry, because the first thing they opened was fishing in Pennsylvania, and then that, and then the next thing was was, was golf. So there wasn't there's three things to do walk in the park, go play golf, or go fishing. So it definitely brought a lot of people back into the sport. I think what happened after there's three booms that I that I've lived through is when I was a young kid, I was a cart kid, and in, you know, the late 80s, early 90s, the AOL tech boom of golf, and then the Tiger boom, and the Tiger boom caused a big influx of golfers but also it caused a big influx of golf courses. So when we after 9/11, we had golf decreasing and an oversaturated market with golf courses. So I think the good thing that has happened since '01-'02 in the Bucks County and Montgomery and Philadelphia area, Westchester area. We've lost golf courses for good reason. So the saturation of golf courses. Is is going down the saturation of golf courses that were in Arizona or the Carolinas or Florida that had construction attached to them. They kind of just went away or plowed over We're in the Philadelphia area. golf courses went away for great reasons the hospital Einstein hospital. We had a couple of developments. Toll Brothers have Ocean Valley, Limekilm, Center Square Phoenixville, a school district, took over Bank of America up to up in Allentown area got another golf course. So we lost a lot of golf course. So back to that. So are we're getting back to a normal inventory or some kind of a normal ratio of golfers to golf courses in the Philadelphia area, which is definitely an asset for private clubs, resorts or public facilities. So I do see golf, I mean it is it is going up, you know, it's just like the market, it's going to correct itself. If it's not sustainable, it's not going to be like this. Next year, it may be a little bit less, but I think there's going to be a lot of people that are going to stay in it. And I think it's the you know, the Generation X and the millenniums or whatever, whatever age category you want to talk about, I think the biggest thing with golf was time. And that's number one. And the other thing with golf is the average golfer back in the 80s used to play 2.5 times a week now the golf average golfer, average golfer plays point five. And because the husband and wife work, you know, little Johnny and Susie play games every Saturday. I mean, you can play baseball year round soccer all year round, field hockey all year round. So lacrosse all year round. So a lot of the weekends are getting sucked up by you know, the husband and wives that can't get out on Saturdays. Now they're going through the games. So that's where this the COVID and the lack, you know, the cut back on the sports and stuff, help some of some of the golfers to play more and I see a lot more youth playing golf, which is phenomenal. I know our youth programs or high school programs are pretty competitive. You know they have cut in golf programs up and up in this area in the past which is Methacten and then Springfield and Phoenixville and Norristown and PV and and Owen j Roberts up in this net. And so that was that was never, that was never an issue. They're always looking for golfers to play these teams or play on the high school team. So you can definitely see the younger generation and it is a lifetime sport. And I can't tell you how many countless athletes where people doesn't they don't necessarily the athletes come through and say, Man, I wish I would have started earlier. I wish I would have you know, started playing because it is a great sport to continue to play as you age up through through your life.Ray Loewe  17:47  Yeah. So I wish I would have started playing early. Enjoy fit now. Am I part of the group?Robert Kleckner  17:55  Okay, it's never too late. It's never too late to start.Ray Loewe  17:59  Okay, well, well at 104. Okay, I, you know, maybe I can pick up a golf club, though. But But, I mean, I think you're right. I think golf is here. I think it's a question of what you guys do to the youth movement too, to keep it going. Let me ask you a couple of other questions, because I know you've put in other things other than golf. So you start with the golf course. And I think you did some things with cell towers and you did some things with indoor golf kinds of things. Talk to us about some of the entrepreneurial moves that you made as far as your organization is concerned.Robert Kleckner  18:40  Yes, so you know, anything with you know, originally I worked in the ski business all through high school and college at ski shop and work as a cart kid. And and I always thought I'd be out in Denver working a ski resort in the wintertime and and golf course in the summertime and then eventually one of the design ski boots and be a doctor, Podiatrist and things like that? That was my original thoughts in high school. So when I took over this business, I knew I saw businesses that were seasonal and how, how much of a challenge it is. So I figured I figured out when I'm taking over this facility, I got to figure out how to out what do we do in the book ends? What do I do before and after daylight savings? What do I do at night? What can I do here? And I thought about some things some things did stick and some things didn't. The first thing is the cell tower, which was probably one of my other than, you know, getting married and having kids while a major and graduating college is one of my major accomplishments because literally I talked about being told no, no. When I first took over here I called every cell tower company that I could find and They all told me we you don't call us we call you. So like. Okay. So they said, I said, Okay, well then what do I do for you to call me? And they said, Well, yeah, you have to register your property and, and so on and so forth. So, so I did that. And then it was like a sleeping, you know, Sleeping Bear for about a year and a half, and then all of a sudden, my phone blew up. So I got some calls, and I had a young guy come drive down from New York City, I was his very first customer just started with. the company. And he made it, his, he put it on his platform that I was going to get one, you know, and it's very difficult to get one if you you know, different townships and different restrictions and different heights, and neighborhoods and, and, and of course, you know, the local governments like to have them because of the revenue, which is great. Whether it's the police or fire companies or township buildings, so you know, your, your battle on that, because you have to get it through the township to get it passed. So, um, but I, you know, I've always had great relationships, wherever, wherever I, everywhere I worked, I worked, like I owned the facility, even though I didn't. So I always establish really good relationships with people. And I did a lot of good things in the community always volunteered. And I'm not saying I didn't give to get, but I always gave, and it seems to come around full circle 10-15-20 years later, so that I got it all, you know, took me four years to get it through. So it was not an easy process by any means. And so that was one of them. That was a good accomplishment. Second thing is, uh, I took 3000 square feet of my indoor Golf Club of my clubhouse. And I turned this is seven years ago. This is way before it's hot right now. I mean, golf simulators are the hottest thing in the market right now in the industry, just because of the technology. And, and of course, knowing people want these in their homes, because they, you know, they, they can't do too much at the time back in the fall and early like March and April. And then this winter, you know, everyone wants them in their own home if they can't, if they can't get out. So we built six of them in here, which bridged my basically November for the next six months. So so you can come and play you know, you can play Pebble Beach, you can play Merion, you can play Linfield indoor. And it's a pretty, pretty cool thing. So that that was that was that was really exciting to do that. SoRay Loewe  22:42  cool. Well, you know, it's all good things happen when we come to the end of our time. And we actually are over our time over here, Robert, but your story is a wonderful story. No, you're forgiven. But your story is a wonderful story. And I think we can all see why Robert is one of the luckiest people in the world. And some of the things that he's done the perseverance, the the being of unafraid to take some reasonable risks and things like that to expand your business and do things and we're going to have to have you on again, and you're going to have to get me out and teach me how to play golf so that I can enter into the world of old age, you know, with my second sport here, Robert? So soRobert Kleckner  23:24  well, one quick thing, right? First ages and number lights and attitude. That's I love to say that and number two, you were a great inspiration, many breakfast meetings with you about all kinds of stuff. So you were part of my path to success with some of your guidance. Thank you.Ray Loewe  23:45  Well, thanks for being you. And we'll have you back at sometime soon. So we're at the end of our show, KC. You know, one quick thing I want to remind everybody of is December 2 is our virtual conference. You can register on our website. And if you want to get in touch with Robert, we'll put his website in our podcast notes, so you're going to be able to reach him and everybody get out and play golf. It's a safe sport today. So thanks for being with us.Diane Dayton  24:14  Thank you for listening to Changing the Rules, a podcast designed to help you live your life the way you want, and give you what you need to make it happen. Join us in two weeks for our next exciting topic on changing the rules with KC Dempster and Ray Loewe luckiest guy in the world.  

Subscribe: Let us do the hard work and send the podcast to you: https://bit.ly/2NZjODA Review: Share the love and leave a 5* review from your phone: http://getpodcast.reviews/id/1375904962 (from anywhere else hit the ‘Write a Review’ button in the Apple Podcasts app or iTunes) Guest: Em Wilson (https://www.linkedin.com/in/emwilson36274/) Topic: Marketing and History Discussion Points • Tractor magazines • Toothpaste changing a nations habits • Is breakfast the most important meal of the day? • Is smoking healthy? • Sample cards • Historical brands and logos Link to the live video:https://www.linkedin.com/video/live/urn:li:ugcPost:6715289765270315009/ Enjoy the Episode - Happy Marketing! Website Thingy: www.marketingstudylab.co.uk The Professional Bit: https://www.linkedin.com/in/petersumpton/ Facebook Community: https://www.facebook.com/groups/marketingstudylab/ Tweet Tweet: https://twitter.com/cousinp81 Transcript (this transcript isn’t 100% accurate but provides a decent representation of the conversation – soz for any confusion) Peter Sumpton  Hello and welcome. My name is Peter Sumpton, marketing consultant and Lego master of marketing and you're listening to the marketing study lab podcast live. Well, this bit isn't live, but the rest of it is. You'll hear a bit about that later. I mean, now, let's crack on. These episodes are taken from my live show marketing, where we look at the relationship between marketing and a specific topic. Subject or specialism. Sometimes there'll be guests, other times, it will just be me. So let's get cracking. Right, apparently we are live. Fantastic. Great thing. First first time and Wilson Welcome to LinkedIn live. It's wonderful in here, isn't it? Absolutely marvellous. So glad you'd say you do this. I'm really looking forward to it. Because I know you've put a lot of time and effort into the research into this and every time you post something, in terms of the history of marketing and all that kind of stuff. It's really engaging, really exciting. And I just can't wait to see what you've got for us today. But I'm going to chip in with a few things as well if you don't mind. But before we do that, first of all, introduce yourself to the lovely audience who are you?   Em Wilson  Well we take screenshots Everyone knows that we're live wire on my station.   Peter Sumpton  I was looking at the camera there. It's not gonna look good.   Em Wilson  I don't look great either to be better excited.   Yeah, introduce yourself. So I'm m Wilson. I run an international marketing agency called Mari Mari located at UK and and yeah, bit of a bit of a weird and wonderful squiggly career into marketing. So and started in the commercial team at BP and trading so as a buyer, and then went into strategy for Europe for Castro then I did some global social media for BP, their tech startup through a successful investment round. And then I did six months with a as a marketing director and business development manager and then yeah, walked out and started Omari   Peter Sumpton  as you do, where does the name of Mari come from?   Em Wilson  And so, in honesty, it's a bit of a smush of my my name and my husband's name. So we save you money. And and yeah, we were just always always married. So that was because we were proper from day one. So   Peter Sumpton  great, great little story that absolutely fantastic. And how is life in general? And   Em Wilson  yeah, really good actually. I mean, I think I'm, you know, I'm in a bit of a COVID bubble because I don't really I don't really know anyone that's been affected touch word. And and and in honesty, although we've had you know, some struggles I think everyone's had some struggles during COVID. And you know, lots of our clients have have you know, we've had to stop projects and do payment plans and things like that, but overall, I think Yeah, not it's not the bit I've missed most is actually my Latin dance classes, which is out of everything you know, it's not a lot to complain about, is it?   Peter Sumpton  Anyone who's ever gonna come in here and say I'm missing my dance class?   Em Wilson  That's that's all like that thing really and hug people as well. person and I'm really struggling with not being able to sort of cut off people because you know that you might think they made it into the best man speech at my wedding was like the you know, the legendary avocados. Yeah.   Peter Sumpton  Yeah. Oh, thank you. Thank you so much for asking. Yeah, all good. Bit of a cold which is a bit of a downer. But apart from that all is all is good with life To be fair, busy, busy, busy, which is always fun and always exciting. But yeah, things are things are going pretty damn good. Again, similar to you can't complain touchwood, my own little bubble, that kind of stuff. But have been infiltrated by a call. But apart from that, all is really good. Right? Okay, we should really talk about some serious stuff shouldn't we'll give people watching at least something to keep rather than our life stories. So what I wanted to talk to you today about so the way I'm doing these lives is that it's kind of like a marketing and series. So this this is classed as marketing and history, but it doesn't really do it justice. So I think the great thing and anyone that doesn't follow, please follow and go back through some of the videos and some of the posts about some historic elements in marketing and how it's been used through history and time and stuff like that. It's amazing. And plus, take a look at the videos where she just picks something random that a client has asked glean a lot of information from them. It's pretty much how I do all my strategies to be fair. Watch your videos, and then pick You know, the bowl and go? Yeah, that's about right. Let's do anyone that's watching. I don't do that. Okay, but so what I want to do is dive into kind of the history of marketing or certain elements of the history or certain things you've found that's really interesting, fascinating that we might even learn from. So first and foremost, take it away, what, what would you say is like, let's start on a high the most exciting thing or the most interesting thing that you that you've seen recently in terms of marketing and history.   Em Wilson  And so I'm, I'm a really big fan of the custom magazine, so that I've got a I've got a lot of time for that. And basically, it's different companies creating magazines for their particular target audience. Because it's really interesting. There is a brilliant book by Joe bootsy, that talks about how do you make marketing a profit centre? And one of the ways you do that is through a magazine that you get people to pay for. And so that got me like, hooked, like, when did it start from, you know, obviously, we had the Gutenberg press in 1450, or whatever it was so and then everyone always talks about the Pharaoh, which started in I think it was 1895, which was a tractor magazine. And so I've learned about tractors. But actually, the first, the first magazine I can find was in 1730. And there was a race between Ben Franklin and this other guy to who could get the first published magazine in America, which I found really fascinating. So he started that off, that was quite nice. And then, with the magazines that what I found quite interesting about that was just how, like, if you think about the 1730s, like, the only way that people could really mark it was like word of mouth. It was, and, you know, posters on the side of building, which actually got, it got so bad, because people are doing it so often, that actually got banned in London and France.   And France.   Peter Sumpton  Yeah, no one else had posted.   Em Wilson  But that I found really interesting. And then, and you know, the adverts from like the 1800s, as well. And so there was I found out about this whole thing about the baking powder was, and which is really exciting. Yeah, so baking powder in like the, you know, late 17 1700s, early 1800s was this, like the adverts and nuts? Like they're just so because what you don't realise is that no, baking powder was like, female liberation at the time, like a woman's worth is defined by the quality of her bread. So like baking powder was incredible. And it's so it was so competitive. And like, you look at all the adverts, and they're just, they're just insane. They're just really fun. And in terms of the different things that they did, and I think, you know, it's kind of, then you move on, and you kind of have, and obviously the posters and everything, all the adverts from that magazine went out into the posters, and then the posters got banned. So then we had the billboard, and billboards came out in like 1860s. And I think that the first one was rented in 1867. And what I find amazing about these things is that, you know, like, if you think, however many years later, so 2010 Mini, like the car company, look pretty glued and actual mini to the top of the Billboard, as sort of, you know, shout out marketing think outside the box. And I just, you know, you see all these things that happened in sort of, yeah, the 1718 1900s and how that kind of came through, like telemarketing. So I'm under the like telemarketing. Everyone thinks that's like 1970s 1980s Wolf of Wall Street. started in the early 1900s by a bunch of housewives who wanted to sell more cookies. Yeah. So not even joking. And he then had, and they basically sold the original lead list of, you know, local directories, and these ladies would just ring each other up and say, you know, my recipe is better than yours. Do you want to buy my piece?   Peter Sumpton  I just I find it fascinating how? Here we overcomplicate marketing, like we just do massively. And I always find it interesting to go back to its roots and original, where it all came from, and all that kind of stuff. And from from what I know, and what I found, is that there's no no one can give you a definitive, this is where marketing started. This is how this grew. Yeah, there's like tally marks in our posters and stuff like that. But it's usually someone's doing it in one country, or someone's doing it over here at the same time, roughly the same time, or whatever it is, and they derive something slightly different. And I just think typifies what marketing is all about, you know, trying new things, testing new things trying to stand out, but to a particular audience, and I think it's really interesting that if you read the history and go try to go back as far as you can, there isn't a Well, this person said this, and that led to, there are certain elements, but there's almost it's almost hearsay if you like.   Em Wilson  Yeah. And that I think that's the bit I find I find fascinating about it. And the bit I really enjoy about like, the history of marketing particularly is just its effect on society. Like, I don't think you know, so like, and I always go back to the toothpaste analogy, so, and advertising actually save the teeth of a nation.   And so   my favourite, one of my favourites,   that and you know, so back in the early 1900s, again, and only like 7% of Americans brush their teeth every day, which just seems insane. Yeah. And then this guy, called, I think his name's Claude Hopkins or something. But he, he basically got asked to advertise some toothpaste. But obviously, nobody really got it, they didn't really understand why they needed it. So he went and wrote read a load of dentistry books, which was really boring. And he found out about plaque and how it leaves like the film on your teeth. And he is actually one of the earliest examples of the cue and reward and advertising and marketing that we can find or I found today. And so the cue is if you feel the film on your teeth, then the reward is brushwood, Pepcid and get like the tingling feeling. Okay. Yeah.   And yeah, and so by the end, so it was all sort of do the tongue test, I think was his tagline. And, and he is like, within a decade, 65% of Americans were then brushing their teeth every day. And he also you had like the beginnings of influencer marketing, because Clark Gable was known for his Pepsi dense smile, Shirley Temple, you know, all of these people are so yeah, it's just I think that's, it's sort of the Mad Men era that I really enjoy.   Peter Sumpton  Yeah. And we, we need, and things are slightly changed from when I was, was being educated in marketing, if you want to call it that. But it's, I'd say, a lot of people get into the industry, because of that madman era, which is, I think it's slightly changed now. But and it's more, I suppose I have a Zuckerberg error if you like. And that's why people get into it, whether they fall into it by accident, or they want to, but I was hugely influenced by the fact that the psychology behind marketing and how it can have a massive influence on Well, actually a nation, like you just said, to the point of view that it changes culture. And I feel like did it change culture, people like cleaning the teeth.   That's, that's my,   Em Wilson  that was the bit in their social dilemma. I don't know if you've seen it on Netflix yet. But that's, I mean, that just makes you want to throw your phone out the window, and start talking about all the data that people get from, from your social media channels and stuff. But I thought was really interesting about that was it wasn't that the consumer was the was the main thing, like getting more customers wasn't actually the main thing. It was behavioural change. Or it was all kind of focused on and I thought that was Yeah, just really interesting. But I look to the the old, the old marketing, so mad men is usually associated with the 1950s, isn't it? I was talking about sort of the Victorian Mad Men, I sort of see them,   Peter Sumpton  okay.   Em Wilson  But, and also, like, think about Michelin, so like, and the tires, they started their publication in 1904. And because they wanted people to go explore, so they wear the tie that more often so that they, you know, so much higher. And now it's like the industry standard or gold standard for restaurants and things.   of 100 years.   Peter Sumpton  And that's it makes it makes me laugh. Like today when you hear people come up with some crazy ideas or crazy concepts within within marketing or everyone thinks that that's what we do. We draw stuff we call stuff in we come up with stupid ideas. Okay, we kind of do, but there's a lot of there's a lot of theory and methodology behind it. Imagine going into a boardroom. And, like, just on the face of it saying, right, we're at a company, what do you want to do? I know what we're gonna do. We're gonna give restaurants rewards. What how, how does that work? I but the theory behind it is absolutely bang, when you tell people that story, but that's how the stars came about and all that kind of stuff. It's like, Oh, yeah. And that's what really fascinates me about like, the history of marketing is the fact that you look at various things. And most people like the toothpaste, for example, they probably thought he was crazy. Like he never got to get people to clean the teeth. But doing his research, and bringing it forward to what people gather data for is behavioural change. That's pretty much what he did. He went back and read books and said, right, okay, this is a thing that I feel can influence people to change the way they think about their teeth.   Em Wilson  But what I love about that one particularly is like the dentist history books he read, he said in his autobiography that they were like, so dry because it was just all about what newsone plaque and like, just sounds and making it, you know, by calling it the film, like anybody can understand that anybody knows when you wrap your your tongue across your teeth, exactly how that feels, you know, if you've had a glass of red wine or something, you can feel it. It was that it was making, I think sometimes it marketing is just about making the complex, simple. And certainly like that the you know, that's the the challenge that keeps me in interested in in what I do is a lot of my work is actually how do you take this really sort of techie complicated thing and make it ama friendly, I call it   sort of anybody could understand   And I think that's, that's the important bit of a bit of marketing. And I think also, like, the other thing that we learn from the history is to play to your strengths. So, you know, think about, you know, post World War, you had the the VW, the Volkswagen, and you sell, you know, a German car, that's pretty rubbish in comparison with its western counterparts. And, and you know, and it's got horrible name on it. And what you do is you call it a VW, and all of the copy around those adverts were about the fact Yes, it was very small. And no, it wasn't going to go very fast. But it was reliable, and it wasn't going to need a lot of upkeep. So for people in post war, you know, post war Britain, post war America, it was actually as long as you call it VW Volkswagen actually not, it was a lot easier to get that that message across and actually became, it became a bit of a personality symbol a bit like the Mini is now. You know, for people, it's a bit quirky. And you know, many really, I think they actually took the lessons from VW from the 50s. And sort of brought that sort of into its own in the sort of the 2010. And because they were they were, you know, really playing on the on the mini sort of quirky personality. Yeah, yeah, that's really, I really enjoy it.   Peter Sumpton  Yeah, I mean, I, again, I mean, there's so many lessons we learn through looking at history and what's gone before us and all that kind of stuff. And we should always be looking forward. Don't get me wrong. But looking back to that. And and, again, the simplicity of marketing is, you know, you've got something that solves a problem. How do you get it into the hands of the people that have that problem? That's it, you know, that's all we're here to do? Through various methods or whatever. And pretty much, that's what VW did. They're like, Okay, we've got this car. So I'm going to suit everyone. It just isn't it fundamentally isn't. And we don't say Volkswagen, because that is far too German. So how do we get into this UK in this US market, right? We're going to need a name change, fine tick. But it's too small for most. So we're not targeting big families. We're not targeting people that want to do long journeys. Let's just be really focused and targeted on the people that that may want this. And let's make our comms about them. And how this car isn't made for everyone. And straight away, you're, you're in a select club isn't made for everyone.   Em Wilson  Yeah, you have to opt in. Yeah. And what I, what I love about those adverts as well is they really understood the power of whitespace. So like, if you look at their adverts, it's literally like a full page. And it's this tiny little car in the top right hand corner. And then there's a little bit of text at the bottom, I mean, talk about minimalism. It was you know, it was cutting edge really, in terms of like in terms of the messaging in terms of the coffee, I bowed down to those guys, they were they you know, absolutely incredible with what they did. But also, you know, sometimes you can solve a problem too easily. So, you know, tell me what you just said on its head a little bit.   Peter Sumpton  Yeah, no, go for it.   Em Wilson  Think another foodie one. But if you think Betty Crocker, so when she started, because obviously, you know, after, after the telephone, we had the radio, and then you obviously went to TV. And And what was interesting about that was that when she started with her cooking mixes in the early 50s, and you know, all the all women had to do was add water. And I thought, well, this is you know, they thought this is going to fly off the shelves, it's going to be amazing. And you know, it's going to make life so much easier for women and they can just, you know, sit back have a have couple of gems or however they want to do. And actually it was too easy. And, and their their sales didn't didn't do anything at all. So they had to actually add an egg that became the thing was add an egg. And then because then it was something about adding two ingredients that made women feel like they'd been important, because what they were suffering from was a form of guilt. Like it's too easy. I'm getting great feedback on my amazing cake that I didn't make this better. But by adding an egg, I don't know why there's some psychology in there. So that made it that made it they felt more invested and therefore it flew off the shelf after that,   Peter Sumpton  even that that's understanding your audience, isn't it going back to what we say and it's just understanding the market that you're serving and learning from your mistakes. I suppose You've taken it too far. But you're   Em Wilson  taking on feedback because they could have just carried on flogging it with the Add water. They could have just you know, you could have just seen more and more adverts coming out about that, but it was actually going to the customer base and going, why don't you like this? And, you know, actually making the making the effort and the point to not assume that they knew the answer. I think that's the really key point to take away from that example actually is, and like in today's society, I think because we're just so data driven, you know, you've got robots pretending to be humans and humans pretending to be robots. And we get so stressed about the data, we actually just forget to talk to one another. And that's, you know, such a such an incredible and you know, the feedback you can get from your clients and prospective clients. You know, every conversation you can learn something quite interesting.   Peter Sumpton  Yeah.   Absolutely. So just just a quick hello to James, he was on last last Friday, and we had a good Well, I'm gonna have to say we had good crack because he's Irish nickel me If I don't take a crack, at least once on the show. That was the contract that to sign. So he asked the question, and I've got no idea. The answer this, but this will be interesting. So what in history was the first most recognisable brand?   That's a bit of a big one, isn't it?   So, I mean, that's a Wikipedia question. And to be perfectly honest, I'd be amazed if there wasn't, if there wasn't actual answer to that. And from by that, what I mean, is that this probably recognisable brands going back way, way way. I mean, it's probably going to be something like Coca Cola or something. My first   Em Wilson  thought, but then when they first started, they only sold like, they didn't sell many bottles at all.   Peter Sumpton  Yeah, yeah, I know. I know. So I'm just trying to think of like, I think Coca Cola took the brand and made a thing, like in terms of what brand can do, because that is bigger than the actual rubbish that we sell, isn't it? Sorry.   It's not all   Em Wilson  green. And then now he's now he's red, because that was Coca Cola, wasn't it? That's always the I don't know if that's actually true. That might be myth and legend rather than actual true fact.   Peter Sumpton  Nothing is true.   It Well, they seem to claim it's true, but you just follow it up with that. So I don't know whether he's on Wikipedia or not. But yeah, yeah, we thought it was Coca Cola as well. But I think that massively depends on the country as well, because there was probably recognisable brands in the, in the in the UK, that weren't necessarily in us or whatever. But having said that, well, we've got some great participation now. So we'll just should just keep clicking char. So he comes up with this one, which is probably right   Em Wilson  about it. It was probably alcohol, it was probably a vise Yeah, absolutely. Like, you know, something that's not good for you. Because   Peter Sumpton  I'm thinking cigarettes, maybe?   Em Wilson  Well, they were they when they first came out. They were not that's what   Peter Sumpton  I mean. But it's still a race, which I was going to come on to in a minute, we'll come back to smoking. It's not actual smoking. But ama says that it could be Ford. Yeah. Which quite interesting. Although she has it's   too late. Probably. I'm not quite sure about   if she means for not her answer.   For I think for took the from my point of view Anyway, I'm not sure what you think about Sam but I think from for took the fact that brands probably know consumers better than they know themselves. And well, they're   Em Wilson  thinking about it. And you probably see if you think like in terms of brand, something like tea. I've just had a look at em on. I'm just on the time. Time website at the moment. And what closure? Absolutely. Yeah, like Google is your friend. And so stellar artwork was apparently that their logo was first used in 1366. So their oldest brand that times found anyway. And but what they said was actually yeah, Twinings tea that was 1887 if you think about sort of the trade routes and stuff, yeah, that kind of makes sense to me. So   no, like if someone asks a question, I don't know the answer, right.   Peter Sumpton  Chrissy says, loughs gone, Sarah, that's got that's got to be down. That's somewhere that has got to be. I think it's not going back as far as stellar or Twinings, but that's got to be somewhere. Definitely, so Okay, thanks, James. for that question. We've kind of ruined the whole show that but you know, we'll let you off. No, no, no, I have any further questions. Like please please dive in. Because some of those were, if anyone does actually know if anyone's got anything different From stellar or Twinings, that'd be interesting to know. I mean, fact we only deal with fun. Absolutely. So just going back to smoking gun, I'm not, I'm gonna never have never will. But I find it really interesting. And I'm gonna bring this to the modern day. But I find it really interesting that smoking was always seen as a positive thing to do, and a health thing. And the fact that menthol cigarettes were, so you could have fresh breath and stuff like that. And I find it really interesting that some things we take today. And I get your take on the smoking thing in a minute, but some things we take today. So things that were fundamentally made up like, I think I mentioned this in a previous show, but breakfast most important meal of the day. Well, I wonder where that came from? Would it be research that was conducted and sponsored by cereal manufacturer is   Em Wilson  by any chance? Yeah,   Peter Sumpton  absolutely. So no wonder it's the most important deal meal of the day. But it's the fact that going back to smoking, that the trust and belief that we have in what people tell us. And that's why brands are so important. And that's why brands have a place in society, but they can have a huge impact on how we feel about certain things. So what's your take on the whole smoking thing, then? going way back?   Em Wilson  Well, in terms of   Peter Sumpton  in terms of in terms of, of the how they used it as a positive?   Em Wilson  Yeah, I mean, they they use the oldest trick in the book, didn't they? They just, they just used it as sex. It was, you know, only cool people it was, you know, there wasn't any sort of, you know, boring person in the outfits, it was all to do with them. You know, it was it was a lifestyle choice. It was you, you you bought into that into that look into that into that vote if you like, you know, same way I buy an Apple Computer, because it says something about me, I think, you know, when you explain to me It said something about you and, and brand loyalty that mean, having been a buyer. And I actually did quite a lot on the sort of analysis of tobacco, and the brand loyalty is insane. Yeah, yes. So, you know, and tobacco is, you know, one of the biggest categories in you know, one of the, one of the certainly most profitable, and because, you know, it's addictive, isn't it? So? But yeah, we had to keep certain ranges and you'd like but we sell four of these a year. But you'd like your but Mike in that particular? No, Petra, he can't get his brand. He will start you know, shopping in Shell. Yeah. So yeah, I think the brand loyalty was it was was mad. And I think they have, they have done quite a lot in terms of, I think the the going dark was a, you know, quite stressful and but really good idea. And I'm not entirely sure how, how you be interesting, I haven't done the research on it and the need to on the, you know, having the adverts on the front of the packets, something if you if you're going to smoke, you're going to smoke to be interesting to see, I think what was I always had this idea of, you know, rather than having any advertising on it, almost have it like brown paper, and then in the cigarette packet have like a crayon, so you can draw on it. And but obviously, that's got charged presentation, suppose possibly not, but yeah, the I think it What amazes me is how long it took actually, for smoking, you know, the dangers of smoking and, and the realities of sort of, you know, the consequences of it, to actually filter into, into consciousness. And into, you know, because people would just for so long and accepted it, you know, in the war, so just smoke to keep going, you know, it was it was, it was something that they needed. And in a way, you know, great stress. It was a stress relief. But that's how it was noted, I think and say, yeah, just just the fact that it became so pervasive in such a, you know, reasonably short amount of time, actually, if you think World War 119 40. And today or to, you know, the sort of when it started becoming, you know,   bad idea.   Peter Sumpton  Yeah, I think right. And I think train trends change, and what we learn about certain things has, has a huge, huge impact on what we know, like and trust in our particular brands. Interesting. I was told this, so this this is going off on somebody told me rather than fact, but I think it's fact. So when when Steve Jobs, wanted to push and promote Apple computers, he didn't just go he didn't go down the address. He didn't just do that. He didn't just think right, okay, I need to be everywhere all the time. He gave them away to very influential people at the time. And it's just like, I don't know whether that was quite unique in what you did at the time. But knowing and understanding that culture and knowing and understanding that if you gives it to influential people that is far more influential than putting something in print in a certain magazine. I mean, that's huge.   Em Wilson  Think about 1984. I mean, that was a moment in time that Superbowl advert and that cost him, you know, I think nearly a million to create, but that wasn't that wasn't an advert. That was it. That was a Mini Movie. Yeah, that was that wasn't you know, even now, when I watched that I get sort of, you know, skin freckles, it's just it was so he was so ahead of his time in terms of understanding that that's what people wanted. I mean, now you get it all the time, you know, Lego movies, you know, that was just a full feature.   ventilated, really, really well for that,   um, you know, and again, that's a marketing department becoming, you know, almost profitable in saying, right.   Peter Sumpton  Yeah, absolutely. And   Em Wilson  as opposed to selling Lego. Yeah.   Peter Sumpton  Because that's what marketing needs to be seen as it does. It's not a it's not a cost to a business. It should be either a value or profit creator. And there's so many ways and it's interesting that the most the most innovative innovative one I've seen over the past like few days is the the Burger King and Stevenage linkup. I don't know if you've seen that. Well, that So what they did was, and I don't know hundred percent but basically, Burger King sponsored Stevenage. So when Stevenage were on a computer game in football, a football computer game sorry. All their players at Burger King on the top. So what Burger King did was say they did a whole campaign around play Stevenage and see how far you can get them saying the best players for Stevenage, you can buy the best players to see and everywhere you when it had Burger King on the top. So it was just unreal, just   Em Wilson  brilliant. I loved what they did in Germany when COVID started because they had the big six foot some bow around   it make it to the UK, I definitely would have bought one.   And one thing I liked about their communities, they they were always so and they've done some very interesting LGBT pieces recently. And so there's a piece between Burger King and Ronald McDonald, which I thought was very clever, and quite strong, quite powerful stuff. And but the other thing I liked about Burger King was they do you remember in I don't know. 20? Was it 2009 2010? They did the Delete 10 Facebook friends and get a free Whopper.   Peter Sumpton  All right, no, no.   Em Wilson  So and they say Facebook closed down eventually, because they they actually gave away 200,000   burgers.   But I think what they really clicked into was actually you know, how social media has fundamentally changed our understanding of friendships. In life, you know, if you I do an awful lot of work and speaking on social capital, and the power of social capital, and how that you know, the intrinsic value that you get from your relationships, and how that relates to the psychology of marketing, all that sort of stuff. But what's really interesting that is, you know, if you look at the data, people only really have 150 relationships, you know, those that you know, if you think about your, your wedding list, that's kind of your close circle, whereas on Facebook you can have you know, thousands LinkedIn same again, and and what they really kicked into and and also like, Who are you going to call for your free burger? Do you tell them? You know, you will my boss, but what for sacrifice? I think it was great. It was such a good, but I just thought that they was very bold, you know, to go, you know, even in 2009 2010 because, you know, Facebook wasn't, wasn't what it is now. And I just Yeah, I thought that was very clever. And the way that they'd sort of kicked into that cycle because it was very simple call to action. Anybody could do it. All you had to do was prove you deleted 10 friends and you get a free Whopper and hit me you know, who knows? Maybe on a behavioural level it made people think like, actually, you know, yeah, you're worth eating for a burger.   Peter Sumpton  I think I'd put my hand up and go, yeah, that's fine. I know. We're still mates. Just delete me. Like if you want that Whopper that we're just, I'm comfortable with that level of friendship. In fact, if you're going to tell someone, you're going to delete them for the burger, and they're happy with it, then you've got that level of relationship that's worth keeping offline really. To be fair. One thing first of all, Emma's not crafty. She's from Steven is just you know what the hell's going on. So I'll send you the link camera afterwards to see what's going on. But it's putting Stevenage on the map that most seller in Stevenage top for grey say you're winning on every level. But what's what's interesting to me is the fact that you said like what Burger King do is out there and it isn't and it you see a lot of innovative things that they do in terms of how they promote themselves and how they get in front of mass market. And but yet McDonald's is the market leader and they can't Get close to McDonald's. So like what's with that? Surely, in our marketing brain, it says that we have the most innovative, the most clever, the most backlog showed the best piece of comms, which is based on research, and it's a bit risky. And it's out there because no one's doing what we do. yet. We can't close this market leader.   Em Wilson  But I don't I think they they differentiate like, you know, they're very different. And, you know, you It's a bit like, you know, cat or dog, isn't it McDonald's or Burger King? You're either one or the other. And, you know, for me if I could have a Burger King burger with a McDonald's fries, and a KFC gravy like that? To be honest, because I'm from Birmingham, so chips and gravy is a standard. Hey, look,   Peter Sumpton  I'm more northern than you are. So don't come with your chips and gravy here. Like literally, we live on chips and gravy. It's like the sea is the river mercy? Yes. And   Em Wilson  it's really rubbish   that I found if anyone finds on that, because   my waistline doesn't, it'd be quite nice every now   and then. And but yeah, so I think I think, but they're also doing a lot of, you know, again, and they're sort of building those partnerships, aren't they? I mean, again, I don't know much about banking and McDonald's, where they're going with a marketing strategy, I have to have a look at that. But like, you are seeing more, so they did that whole thing where I can't one of them did a thing. Like, if you buy a burger, we'll give a load of money to charity.   Peter Sumpton  Yeah, I think that's Burger King again.   Em Wilson  And then McDonald's will like go to Burger King, want them to give all the money. So that was quite nice, you know, friendly, sort of competitive collaboration in a way. And but I think I think, you know, they are they are very different. They stand for very different things. I think the products are quite, you know, although they're still burgers, whatever, they are different. And so I think, yeah, it's again, it's sort of standing in that sort of in, you know, being what you are, and being okay with it and not trying to be a me to type thing I like I've got, you know, I think a lot of brands are now moving into this sort of social responsibility space. And you said about how brands have no, they've got an awful lot of power and influence and liking at the moment is seeing more and more brands actually moving into that, and sort of space quite confidently. And so, you know, we talked about Superbowl earlier. So Pepsi was one that I was thinking about at the time, because they sponsored Superbowl, like 23 years. And then one year they did it and of course more fast by the fact they didn't. They did they got more press for it. And But what was interesting was actually decided that year to spend that money on that. It was like a grant effectively, the projects, you know, if you had some good project, you could you could go to them and ask for money. Problem was it then died to death about 10 months later, because of that it was covered in fraud allegation? So actually did the more harm because at the end of it, but that's because it wasn't done properly. Yeah, you know, and all due diligence, should we say? Yeah, but, but yeah, I thought, you know, it was quite a bold move to put that money behind a behind the statement. And but you see a lot of companies now now doing that, and what we've seen this year, I think, more than than than other years, potentially, or certainly, perhaps I've just become more aware of it more in my, you know, like when you're buying a car and then all you see is car adverts. Maybe that's why. And, you know, there's a lot of companies brands are now putting their foot down and saying, you know, this is what we this is what we stand for, this is what we and this is what we're doing, to sort of actually show that it's more than worse.   Peter Sumpton  And that that for me is is the the pivot point. For me. It's the, this is what we're doing to show that that's our that's what we believe because and this, you know, you might have different feelings on this. But when you see logos change to have rainbows in the background, or you see them change to support something fantastic. I'm not saying any of that isn't fantastic. What I'm saying is that this month, absolutely, yeah, but what happens when you move that rainbow? Is that not important anymore, or not important enough to be in your logo, it just opens a whole connotation that you don't you don't need and you can support things without being all ballsy about it. People will get to know about it. And the people that you want to know about it will because they're the same type of people and the people that you want to draw in   Em Wilson  Yeah, no, totally. I I think for me, you know a lot of people get caught out on this in terms of you know, a logo change so well it's not you know, that's not that's not action. I think going back you know what I'm finding is we're now in the digital you know, we're absolutely in the digital age and we you know, our marketing and since you know early noughties or whatever, and really is when it when it took off, but I think what we're seeing Now it's because everything is digitised. We're losing trust. And so it is that that, you know, everyone's talking about value and integrity and authenticity, we can use all the buzzwords, but fundamentally, you know, the results speak for themselves. So I'd much rather, you know, be working with a company that has, you know, proven their culture and can prove in their case study, and all of that sort of stuff, that they're actually doing tangible things, rather than just, you know, sprinkling some gifts on a logo once in a blue moon, Transcribed by https://otter.ai Main Intro Music Featured on this Podcast: Intro 1N15 Setuniman http://www.setuniman.com/ Creative Commons License

Subscribe: Let us do the hard work and send the podcast to you: https://bit.ly/2NZjODA  Review: Share the love and leave a 5* review from your phone: http://getpodcast.reviews/id/1375904962 (from anywhere else hit the ‘Write a Review’ button in the Apple Podcasts app or iTunes) Guest: James Perry (https://www.linkedin.com/in/jamesperryaccountingsuccesscoach/) Topic: Marketing and Finance Discussion Points Guinness!! Irish history Personal branding Financial education Professional marketing qualifications Importance of practical experience Link to the live video:https://www.linkedin.com/video/live/urn:li:ugcPost:6712752394180075520/ Enjoy the Episode - Happy Marketing! Website Thingy: www.marketingstudylab.co.uk The Professional Bit: https://www.linkedin.com/in/petersumpton/ Facebook Community: https://www.facebook.com/groups/marketingstudylab/ Tweet Tweet: https://twitter.com/cousinp81 Transcript (this transcript isn’t 100% accurate but provides a decent representation of the conversation – soz for any confusion)   Peter Sumpton  Hello and welcome. My name is Peter Sumpton, marketing consultant and Lego master of marketing and you're listening to the marketing study lab podcast live. Well, this bit isn't live, but the rest of it is. You'll hear a bit about that later. I mean, now, let's crack on. These episodes are taken from my live show marketing and where we look at the relationship between marketing and a specific topic. Subject or specialism, sometimes there'll be guests other times it'll just be me. So let's get cracking Okay, fantastic. Live live live love it. And I am so delighted to be joined today for this little chat with Mr. James Perry. James How are you doing?   James Perry  I'm good Peter. What about yourself? Thank you for having me.   Peter Sumpton  No problem. I'm doing pretty damn well to be fair. Yeah, all is good big workshop today. Hang on one second. Yeah, just a bit of technical difficulty there Yeah, I did a workshop today that had loads of people in it which is absolutely fantastic all engaged all interested in in marketing and the theory and about how you build a marketing plan and stuff like that so I can't complain sunshine and I think it's a bit cold outside but who cares? This isn't a weather forecast. So we don't really care Believe it or not, the weather is lovely here. It's not cooled   James Perry  and we're in the north of Ireland here which is all we get out.   Get out that's not Peter like I say to people the London for Ireland this Hibernia which meant which means the land of water so I   Peter Sumpton  see now you're gonna have to come back on because I don't know enough about islands and I don't know how I'm going to link it to marketing but there's bound to be some way and your knowledge of marketing and marketing your knowledge of Island and the history is on real so yeah, we're gonna have to link that in some way shape or form I'm not sure how but like well   James Perry  here we go. One of the biggest brands in the world is Irish.   Guinness   Peter Sumpton  well see that's why I invite you on you just keep me in check and make me look fun cuz I'm   James Perry  brought on brand Ireland and I brand Ireland. For a country is incredibly strong. hoka high kind of country an island of 6 million people get every person in the water to celebrate Irishness on one particular day. Or Patrick's Day.   Peter Sumpton  Thoughts marketing at its finest. That is that is brilliant. That isn't how I thought we'd start today. But yeah, let's let's carry on down that route. Yeah, absolutely. Bang, right. Like, like what what Guinness Do you know, they are the antithesis of a heritage historic brand, which keeps transforming what they do from a Marxian perspective yet keeping that history. And those those brand qualities of the the, the white top, the black Guinness, that the iconic glass, that the only company I know that can create an advert about water, and not even mention what they actually sell what they actually do and that you should drink something else other than Guinness and then publicise it, I mean, just amazing stuff.   James Perry  The way that the company was find it, so there's finally over 300 years ago by Arthur chemists who signed this is true, a 9999 year lease on some chambers get   free, because that's one of the sources of Dublin mountain water.   Peter Sumpton  But that's not   James Perry  how they get the symbology as well, Peter, which odd stir brown the heart, the heart is the Brian baru ARP, okay, Brian brew was was an ancient Thai king of Ireland. And even that is symbolic. So you know exactly   what they're doing in terms of their branding.   Peter Sumpton  Well, but that's again, Irish knowledge come into the front. They're not only Irish, but marketing knowledge. Marvellous. And that's what that's what we're all about. I absolutely love it. We'll probably come back to that if we get a little bit bored later on.   James Perry  But we never get bored by Fred. We never get bored.   Peter Sumpton  Well, that is that is very true. That is very, very true. But let's try and stick to half an hour slash four or five hours. I think the mcse live you can go is four hours or something I can't remember. Anyway. That's Mike's it. Right? Okay. Let's go on to a few more serious elements. And then we'll come back to the Guinness stuff and all that kind of stuff. So let's start with your background, a little bit of information about yourself what you do and what you're all about right now. So everybody knows that, what we're what we're going to chat about and how amazing you are.   James Perry  Well, I'm a chartered accountant by profession, accountancy has always been been in the blood Peter so degree in accounting master's degree in accounting and worked for a firm called Grant Thornton for 10 years sort of bigger global firms was an associate director with them, then I moved in tend to stray from not even quarter of wkd, another another alcoholic drink Kima Francia controller with them. Then I left and went to the government, I was the government for government rule for four years, again, as a financial controller on then things happen in life where I had to take a career break, which then pushed me and to starting a company or a business called the cutting success coach, which is my main thrust in terms of LinkedIn and in terms of my, my own business with without, which is to coach accounting students on their exams, and also up and coming accountants and seasoned finance professionals through career development. So that's the main business, I am also a part time teacher, a teaching fellow with the University of Ulster as well. And teaching accounting. So that's my background is all pure accounting.   Peter Sumpton  Cool, excellent. And in a bizarre way, that's kind of how we met with your pure accounting background, my pure marketing background, we're both in the educational field, we both teach marketing, and finance professionally. So it was just really good connections. And the more we spoke about both, the more we realised, from an educational point of view, and just purely departmental, that the links and the synergies between both of them were, were unreal. And then we got chatting about that, and a whole host of other things we've got in common, but let's not mention that Liverpool, the champions of the world, and pretty much champions of everything, shall we? We'll just stick to the marketing and finance on   James Perry  our head is the greatest company ever.   Peter Sumpton  forgot about that? Yeah. God. Yeah, absolutely. Fantastic.   James Perry  You're You're definitely like in the synergies in both marketing on the coating, stroke finance, especially when it comes to getting a professional qualification, look, and examine assignment as an examine assignment, albeit a different topic. And the approaches, in my opinion, are very, very similar. So opposite. That's where we had thought that definitely the professional thing in common as well. Yeah. And we've both been there and Donna disposers, which the thing?   Peter Sumpton  Yeah, that's very true. And I remember speaking to somebody it was on it was on a, another podcast. And they were saying that I can't remember what field they went into. But they went to a university, and sat down in a bid business lecture. And the professor started talking. And he said, Can you give us an example of this, like, that you've been part of? And the professor said that will No, I've never been in business. I only know it academically. And the guy actually walked out. Because he's like, Well, you can't, I want to be successful in business. And there's only so far that I can go with you teaching me from an academic standpoint, if you haven't got any historical, practical application that I can learn from them. This isn't for me. And same with yourself and me. We've we've lived it with breathed it. And I think a lot of people don't give enough credit for the fact that it's all about storytelling. Marketing is all about storytelling, and we gauge with stories and people don't give enough credit for. Okay, this is the theory. But this is what happened to me, or this is a prime example of where it went wrong, or this is what we shouldn't do. Because we've I don't think people give enough credit for that.   James Perry  Absolutely not. If you can live and breathe, what you're teaching someone or what you're coaching someone that really adds a lot to it. I don't think I would have as much gravitas or could help as much if I was a part qualified accountant. I couldn't do that. Because I have sort of I qualified first time with everything. backgrounds always been in the profession. In terms of career, I got to see it very piscean monitored quite early. On no coming the other way with yourself. You know, we're taking the entrepreneurial and started starting on business and doing everything that comes along with that. And I think we're both in the right areas to help others. And I think that's a mean thing to Peter. You know, my endgame is I'm not enough to create the next generation because I'm not. Okay. What I am about, though, is to help people live the life that they want, by getting a world class professional qualification. And by doing things that I learned to, to sort of prepare yourself career forward and live your life you want. That's what I'm all about. And I mean, I'm in this to have a lifestyle business. So that's why I want to teach people how to do that.   Peter Sumpton  Yeah, I wholeheartedly agree from a slightly different standpoint, I think the thing that's missing academically, both marketing and on finance, from what I understand from what you've told me, is the fact that we see it as this, I get this qualification, then then I can do finance, I can do marketing, people will employ me I become employable. Yes, it helps, yes, you get a foot in the door. But what happens when things go wrong? You can't necessarily rely on what you've you've kind of learned, you need that practical experience. And what you said there was really interesting about end game, then why do you want this qualification and some people just want qualifications, because it shows them they can do what they can do, which is fantastic and great. not denying that at all. But others just want it for to progress in their career as well. And, yes, it might help to a certain level, but then I feel there's a lot missing that people don't talk about. For example, when I when I talk, there's the academic marketing, and then there's the real life marketing, the very, very similar, they both need to fit. But sometimes to get that qualification, you need to talk in a certain way. Whereas in real life, you would do things slightly different. It's not the same in in finance.   James Perry  In terms of theoretical versus practical, huh?   Yeah, yes.   Give me a quick example of that. One of the top one of the topics that people find very difficult than a coding is if you're doing an auditing exam, especially if you've never worked in auditing. So if you work and you're doing someone's a concert, if you're working in a tax department, you will find it incredibly hard to relate to auditing. But because I worked in auditing, I could relate to it. And that's something I can help people with a lot. Okay, but there's a massive difference between what it says in the books or what actually happens in real life. You know, what I mean? So there is a very, very different practical element to it. And I suppose, and my coaching, Peter, I very rarely talk accounting. What I what I do talk as though was with the practical applications of that accounting, because people can go and get all the material and learn from a learning provider, but I helped to apply that amount to different thing. Different things all together. And then especially with career development, you can read all the books in the world about career development, unless you unless you've done something, or you can talk to someone who's made all the mistakes like me, you know, shock when you learn about respect as well. So did a massive difference sometimes between theory and practice? Absolutely. But sometimes you have to know your theory before you do the practice.   Peter Sumpton  Yeah, yeah. And and, and that, that is the crux of the matter, there were the first live that I did with with Dr. I, we were talking about education and all that kind of stuff, and saying that it's hugely important to know that this theory, but theory alone, wouldn't necessarily get you through life, depending on what you wanted to do. And it is that that application, whereas if you flip it, and you've got no theory, then you're very, very fortunate if you can craft a career of any substance within a certain field, if you don't have that foundational level. And I'm presuming, like to my, my thoughts on on on finance, and that kind of area is that I wouldn't trust anyone that hadn't got a financial qualification to do my finances. I you know, just just wouldn't be in the same respect. If I went to a chartered accountant, then I probably want them to have X amount years of experience, rather than being that that fresh out is out of qualification. Do you think do you think once you've got a qualification, you are ready to take on the world? Or what? Let me rephrase that. What are the things that aren't taught? So you just pass the exam? What are the things that aren't taught that might hit you in the face when it comes to reality?   James Perry  One thing one point will make actually believe it or not, and it's it is a point for debate within the profession, is that you can call yourself an accountant or not be qualified. Okay. Right. You can actually believe it or not, and some of the best accountants that I know aren't qualified, and then not times that I tell them to get on the horse. get qualified is crazy, because it's adds so much credibility. credibility. So that's the first point in terms of the next bit. If someone has just qualified and they've got the accounting qualification, what I would tend to suggest is that they get that they stay with it where they are for perhaps a year or so or two. I don't know if it's the same in the marketing profession, but it's one or two years of what we call post qualification experience and accounting. And that normally is where you learn a lot of things. So there are a lot of people who perhaps qualify, say, in a coding practice, or within industry, perhaps, and I would say, stay where you are on and learn. Because that's, especially if you're going to go into senior management. And one thing that happened to me, Peter, was that I went that this was quite an extreme route. I went from being just newly qualified, straight into a senior management role. And I wasn't, I wasn't the manager, I wasn't manager, I was mid senior manager, I was promoted incredibly quick. Okay. And I was basically said, durscher portfolio of clients, go and figure it all out. Right. That's what I was taught. So I had to sink or swim. And I learned the hard way. No, that was when I was 10 or 12 years ago, and you'd like to think there's a bit more of a change, and I with proper coaching and things like that. So what I say to someone who is newly qualified, is this one to two years post qualification experience, and get a mentor or a coach. Absolutely, yeah. Because I've said, I've made all the mistakes. I was the one who didn't Dalit didn't know how to delegate. I was the only had this trinkets Knights. I was the one who was made stuff monitor at 20 it with all my mates, I was then their boss, I made every single mistake in the book. So get a mentor who's been there?   Because I tell you what not to do, you know?   Peter Sumpton  Yeah, that is very true. And although we learn from our mistakes, there's some mistakes you just don't want other people to make and others, you almost feel like they've they've got to learn from those mistakes. And that's not to say that, okay, well, well, you can come in work for me or I can be your mentor. But I'm going to let you screw up. It's not that at all most will. This is my experience, but you probably better experience in it for yourself.   James Perry  Absolutely. You have to you have to walk work and run.   Peter Sumpton  Yeah, yeah. So just to go back to the question, is it the same in in marketing, so what I would say, for anybody that's looking for a career in marketing, slightly different, the approach that I would take is that I would say, Don't jump to any particular position. Don't go for any particular job, look at look at the company, look at how they operate, look to see if they're marketing orientated, or whether they're sales focused, or production focused, because you will have a very, very different working life. If you work for a company that's marketing orientated, you will learn a shedload more than you will if they are sales focused, because what will probably happen is that you will be more comms based, and you will be more admin based at the very start. Whereas if it's marketing focus, yes, you'll have the admin functionality, because you're at the bottom of the ladder, but it will be marketing, it will be focused. So you'll get involved in product, you'll get involved in price place, you're getting definitely involved in the communications, because that's kind of what anyone sees nowadays is just the comms in marketing. And I think that's an issue we've got to face. But yes, slightly different to what you would say in finance. My advice would be more about think about the company, and what they can offer in terms of your education in marketing.   James Perry  It's funny, even as you say that,   whenever I was in the industry, and then in the business, once I left the ground floor, marketing was always seen as the sexy thing. Whereas finances, that's the boring thing, okay. But one thing I would say about accounting, if you are an accountant, is to go and talk to everyone else. Go on talk to the marketing department and sales department because what tends to happen or something that people have to realise is that accounting or the finance department is the eyes and ears of the entire business. Therefore, you have to pop relationships with marketing, CS, operations, Treasury, whatever that means. Be. So that's one thing that any marketing students are out there and you're with an industry, go and talk to your accountant Scott, talk to finance. Go and because remember, you're one organisation, it's not, am I that sometimes happens, where departments in a certain in one business think that they're competing they're competing or not? Yeah, that's one thing I learned massively. And accounting, I believe the term of content will be no longer and five years, we will be called business partners. That's what I believe will be called. Okay. That's because the numbers will take care of themselves through AI and blockchain. So we have to actually get off our seats and go talk to people. That's, that's what's happening. So that's where marketing and finance will really coexist.   Peter Sumpton  Yeah, it was a topic that I wanted to raise with you Really? What What can what can marketing ask finance and what can finance learn or understand how that relationship with marketing but completely agree like, across their whole business, similarly, within marketing, that the fact that you need to be involved in pricing, so you kind of want to talk to the finance department to see if you're profitable or not, you need to be involved in in the product. So technical, technical, and r&d and stuff like that. And the same for finance, you know, r&d, you could spend an absolute fortune on r&d and not get anywhere. But if you've got that financial backing to say, well, these are our pinch points, you can take it that far before we need to do this, we can rely on this product for that income, then, you know, the world is a better place. And I love the fact that you just said we're one company and we work in silos some some times and that is a really, really sad thing. Just Quick, quick comment. Will to actually from from Connor, he says, Yeah, the company can teach you so much. But love this one. loving this first time are tuned in. So I'm guessing that's because it's the first time you've tuned in and you just looked out with James Perry being my guest. So   James Perry  I would have a guest Connor. Okay, if you hop off the hop and Irish connection, there   Peter Sumpton  is balance. We can't connect, let us know. Yeah, absolutely. And if you if you've got any Irish history related questions, now's the time. Now's the time to ask them. Just Just on that, just to say, if anyone has got any questions about marketing, and finance, marketing, or finance and how they coexist, or how they work together, you know, please, please do speak up happy to take them on board. So just going back to that question, from your point of view, from a finance perspective, what would you want to know from from marketing to so we can coexist?   James Perry  The first point, if anything, with marketing or than any other department, the first, the first thing that always happens at the start of the year budgeting? Yeah, okay. This is with a bottle of normally. But again, it's having conversation. So if you are a head of marketing, if you're a head of thought sort of department, again, is not to try not to sit on your laurels and going, oh, we're going to get 5% on top of last year's budget, that does not work anymore. First thing is you need to go and talk to each other. And on the terms of finance, Peter, our terms of marketing, especially, it's gonna be very topical night because my farts bring in business with with the the recession and the depression living. What's the first thing to go? marketing budget is cost. Yep. Okay, so that's all the conversations that may need to be hard. Because the other school of thought is that whenever markets are low, or whenever the economy is low, that's the time you need to promote. That is the time you need to invest. So there's so it's actually really topical the conversations that should be compared to marketing finance right now. Hmm.   Peter Sumpton  Yeah, I agree. So if if anybody and I'll put a link in the comments after this because after find out my phone, but Mark Ritson at marketing professor, and consultant, he wrote an article that was published today, and it was talking about sales funnels and stuff like that. But one of the examples he gave was, and I can't remember the company, but an insurance company in Australia, and basically, the final, not the financial officer, sorry, the marketing officer. He doubled down on his advertising within this period, but he did it from from a branding perspective, as well as a sales perspective. So what he did, he went to finance and said, Look, I need more money because of this. And he explained it and what they did was they had this this when no one was advertising. They put all their money into advertising. So they got huge search. Advice. And then what they did, they had these small mini campaigns, where it was a case of we know times are tough. So here's 10 Australian dollars a month to insure you for fire, theft and damage. And that was the short term tactic. And it just worked on believably well, and he gives some stats in that article. And it was just a perfect example of knowing the marketing, but also knowing to talk to finance and saying, look, this is the state that we're in. But through what I know and what I understand we need to invest in you can't really do that without your finance department being on board.   James Perry  Absolutely not. Absolutely not. It's really interesting you say out too, because even from a personal marketing standpoint, bronze, Peter Brown, James. And I was actually on a course today and the question that I put out there was in the world of all this personal branding and personal marketing, I dare How can you make yourself stand out? And it's similar business and similar, similar personal, the same personal was your grant because of your Lego? Right? That makes you stand out? I probably stopped it because I'm the most on stereotypical thing. Right? I am. I like to think I'm not boring at all. I've got a personality. But I thought that was a really great question that was posed today. So I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna be somebody who fires a question back to the host. What can people do? Or what can businesses do to make themselves stand out from the crowd in today's climate?   Peter Sumpton  I mean, I think you've hit the nail on the head with with Lego. Here I am, just for anybody that hasn't seen rowing. There we go. That was the fella. So yeah, I think it's being being memorable or being known for one thing, who you are, and being true to that over a consistent period of time. So unfortunately, nowadays, we live in an economy and that now economy, like I ordered something from Amazon ATM yesterday morning, and it was supposed to arrive before 10pm, the same day it didn't. But I've done that previously. And it has it's arrived the same day. And that is just not it was an extension lead. And it's like, how are you making money off that? So anyway, so be known for one thing, if you want a really good book to read, and a big shout out to john esperion. It's called content DNA. And what he says in that, he says that, you should have kind of three things that everything you do gears around. So that could be and I haven't nailed mine down. So I'm giving advice, and I'm trying to follow it. But I'm not 100% there yet. I'm still playing around with a few things. So so mine, my non negotiables are Lego, helpful, and witty. So everything you see from me should be either all those three things, or one of those things. If it's not, it's not me. And so to build a personal brand, it needs to be individually, you and there's only one of you. Now, the problem you've got James, you're in a great position, because like you say, if if you said, Peter, what do I do? And I hadn't met you. There's no way I would guess what you do. So you being you stands out in your marketplace. Now, if you didn't, I would say become known for a particular thing. So whether that's you wear a bow tie, whether you are a flat cup, whether you have a catchy strapline, whether you do all those things, it's about being consistent. And I don't care how dry or boring or on entertaining somebody thinks they are. They will appeal to a certain demographic, and don't focus on everyone. Even Harry Potter doesn't appeal to everybody. So if you if you're looking for 1000 likes and to please 1000 people forget it. If you're looking to please 1015 people out of the thousands, you're on the right lines. So that's what I would say be known for the right things but make it you because the one thing you don't want is to build up this personal brand of I'm James I'm always I'm always funny, always witty, I know loads of Irish history, and then I meet you, and you know nothing about Ireland, and you're just dull and boring. And I'm like, well, you're not the person I thought you were and and the one thing I would say it's actually in this book, a quote from me, although I didn't originate the quote, but a brand is a promise. And that's the same For individuals, so when I'm talking to you, James, you've promised me that you will be engaging, you will bring your your financial knowledge, you will bring your Irish knowledge, you will be true and honest and open. And if you weren't that, I just be like, well, something's wrong here. And that's who you are. So stay true to your brand and be known. Yeah, so don't break that promise, either. And if you've been false, you'll end up breaking that promise.   James Perry  The there are two things, and one I have actively worked on. On the two things that are your superpowers. One is sleep, right? Sleeping that the part I tell my students that I'm not joking that folks, if you don't have your sleep sorted, get it sorted. Hmm. Second one is consistency. And that is the super part that I neglected for a lot for a long time. So why would have been especially on LinkedIn for my own business, I would have been up here, massive peak post and stuff stopped doing well. And then you go into that truck, and you go into that trough of God, I'm not getting too many likes or follows around. But that's a self fulfilling prophecy, because he don't post you're not going to get them anyway. To be perfectly honest, Peter likes and all that sort of stuff of comments isn't necessarily my metric anymore. Because of to try and get clients and to get eyeballs on my posts. So few use engagement, DNS in the background, having really good conversations with people. What I want to get from this, but I have solved the problem. Now I've got a VA. So I have got over the last couple of years, and the intermittent posting, I'm creating content, I maybe have two or three years with content on my laptop, and I went to my VA and I went just you go nuts. which gives me that platform of consistency. Mm hmm. It's an education piece swept to educate her, where I want her to go with it. Now she's, I could say, just slightly more creative than me, in some ways, now quite creative in other ways. But it also gives me the scope to engage, it gives me the scope to have those conversations with people in the background. And that's something so another tip I would give anybody out there is that given consistency is your shipper part of whichever discipline, if you're not going to be so good at a time source that because it's really, really important. And that's something I've learned massively, you know, I have probably over the last six months been more successful than I have last financial year on it probably factors are probably about it. It is because I've been much, much more consistent over the last six months.   Peter Sumpton  So and I suppose that that's one thing that a lot of people take for granted. So a lot of people that class themselves have influences or whatever you want to call them. You see them a lot, you see them over a consistent period of time. And that is because they're consistently posting, they're consistently on a particular platform, and you get to know them. And that's exactly what you were just saying there. It's it's all about the consistency and using a VA i think is a great idea. And I'm toying with the idea right now. And I just think that I'm so glad you went to say that, you know, it's a bit of a learning curve, because the one thing you don't want to do is outsource and then you lose you. So I'm guessing in terms of the engagement and the conversations you have that is still you it's just the consistency is being helped with having this other person do the ad mini side of being consistent. And I was very lucky who I got from my VA so I have tried and busted   James Perry  our trading task division say a number. But what I do personally is nothing business related as myself on a friend on another young lady. I've got a podcast on we have just we thought we talk rubbish   Peter Sumpton  grin and bear it   James Perry  up grunenberg with Rebecca right so Rebecca is nine my VA on that's where I've been quite lucky. Okay, so Rebecca knows me personally, she knows that I'm like she is she creates movies. She has written a novel. She's not even 25 yet. She adds fantastic in the way she thinks she's very creative. And I went okay, Rebecca, you can kill two birds with one stone here. I am creative. But I'm quite logical in the way that I think. Can you help me paint more of a story about me, but also takes the burden off me to actually have it done on my business at the same time? And I said, Look, I'll pay X amount a month. Yeah, no problem. And that has been one of the best moves either For me, I have I have paid people who don't know me, I have paid. And I just been quite lucky that that has happened for me. But it still is an education process and I will be a continual process. You know, I've noticed that the quality, my deliverable to my posts and my graphics, on even the blurb and the wording of stuff in LinkedIn is infinitely better than what it was a year ago. So again, it has evolved through maybe as help as well. So definitely get people on site that will help you because we're not going to be great at everything we can't be.   Peter Sumpton  Yeah, that that is one fable, if that's the right word it within marketing, it's that. And I'm pretty sure anyone in lighting will will agree that that you have to be excellent at everything. And people expect you to be excellent at everything. So not only do you have to know the ins and outs of LinkedIn, but then you also have to know how to set up and design a brochure or a trade publication. And then you know, you need to know the printing process and the difference between CNY K and RGB and the different types of paper and because you're in marketing, and it's just, it's not true, because you cannot you cannot understand everything. It's It's nuts. Is that kind of similar in a way to to finance or it.   James Perry  Yeah, okay. Peter, people come to me and ask about tax all the time I have in my life, not a tax return.   Peter Sumpton  I asked you as well, like,   James Perry  I don't know, I don't even do my own. MIT does it for me. The reason why that was is because I can draw up my own company kind of not a problem. But my specialism in a bright trend was audit. So I used to go into other companies and audit their books to verify that were recalled true and fair. And basically reasonable. And I was I was a damn good auditor. And then whenever I went into industry, I drew up the books off Wk to either drink or I stabilised the finance team. And then I write and talk to the rest of the business. So I, for example, will not look at pensions or tax or anything like that. People come to me because I'm an accountant, automatically thinking that I know but that might though.   Peter Sumpton  Right? So many synergies there.   James Perry  Absolutely. Is the probably the same in marketing. There's so many but you're specialised that. And there's some areas that are not. And that's the reason why in some of these big organisations, like it's so many different departments. So for example, Grant Thornton are known as chartered accountants, but you've got departments for everything. You know, so I'm not the reason why, you know, you can be, you can be what jack of all trades and Master of None. Yeah.   Peter Sumpton  And there's loads of things to pull from that and discuss really, and I'm just conscious of time, but that's all. But there's no way we could we could break the timer. But they talk about that the T shaped marketer, so you've got a good grounding in all disciplines. And then you focus a speciality on one or maybe two. And that's fine. But the one thing I would say to that is that everyone's different, and everyone's unique. And don't be pigeonholed into one thing or another, unless you want to be a specialist in that area. If you want to be a specialist on PPC, on SEO, fantastic, brilliant, and then maybe branch out into other areas on no other areas of marketing. But if you want to be an all round marketer, I think you need to know and understand a lot. But think more strategically, because that's the bit that's missing the strategy element within marketing we all go for the tactic, we all go for the cons, we all go for the video, and the editing behind that and content creation and stuff like that. But it's the strategic element because all that content creation is great. But like you said with consistency, not only do you have to show up consistently, but you have to have a consistent message which again goes back to your personal brand and be known for particular things. So for example for you James, I know that if I see a post that is that is black, and I don't know what political it at turquoisey blue, it's   James Perry  it's the colour of the colour and the ripples on the shirt.   Peter Sumpton  That's where they got the colour from. I wondered that brilliant, I love it. But yeah, it's those two colours, then I know it's going to be James Perry, and it's going to be talking about accountancy. And because that is you've been consistent over a period of time with those colours. One if you want to check out anybody that does that unbelievably well. There's a lady on LinkedIn. She's very prominent LinkedIn called Mary Henderson. Her colours are pink, black and grey on real Everything you see is pink, black and grey every time I see something that's pink, I just think Mary Henderson's post. Transcribed by https://otter.ai Main Intro Music Featured on this Podcast:Intro 1N15 Setuniman http://www.setuniman.com/ Creative Commons License

The Baby-Sitters Club comes to Netflix! The beloved series features a character who lives with type 1 diabetes. How did the show do portraying life for a 7th grader with T1D? We talk to New York Times Bestselling author and winner of the National Book Award Robin Benway. Robin loved the books as a child and was diagnosed with type 1 as an adult. Also this week, Mike Suarez turned his son’s story into an adorable picture book called Year One with Type One Join the Diabetes Connections Facebook Group! In Tell Me Something Good – she had a huge goal for the JDRF rides this year – of course so much had to be cancelled this year but her story took a wonderful turn.. on and off the bike. This podcast is not intended as medical advice. If you have those kinds of questions, please contact your health care provider. Check out Stacey's new book: The World's Worst Diabetes Mom! Sign up for our newsletter here The Guy's Guide to Diabetes ----- Use this link to get one free download and one free month of Audible, available to Diabetes Connections listeners! ----- Get the App and listen to Diabetes Connections wherever you go! Click here for iPhone      Click here for Android Episode transcription: Stacey Simms 0:00 Diabetes Connections is brought to you by One Drop created for people with diabetes by people who have diabetes by Gvoke HypoPen, the first pre mixed autoinjector for very low blood sugar, and by Dexcom take control of your diabetes and live life to the fullest with Dexcom. Announcer 0:22 This is Diabetes Connections with Stacey Simms. Stacey Simms 0:28 This week, it's all about books and a TV show that's based on books. We're talking about the Baby-Sitters Club with a New York Times bestselling author who loved the series as a child and was diagnosed with type one as an adult. Robin Benway 0:43 Oh my gosh, I'm now something that I was a fan of for so long. I can now watch on television. You know, I was thinking about Stacey when I did start to watch it. I thought it was nearly perfect. Stacey Simms 0:54 Robin Benway is the winner of the National Book Award when we talk about Stacey and the babies sitters club, what we liked what we didn't, and about diabetes in media. Plus a dad turns his toddler story into an adorable picture book about type one. in Tell me something good. She had a huge goal for the JDRF rides this year, of course, so much had to be cancelled and changed. But this woman's story took a wonderful turn on and off the bike. This podcast is not intended as medical advice. If you have those kinds of questions, please contact your health care provider. Welcome to another week of the show. I'm so glad to have you along. I'm your host, Stacey Simms, and we aim to educate and inspire about type 1 diabetes by sharing stories of connection. My son was diagnosed with type one, gosh, ages ago now he was almost two and in December it will be 14 years. Yeah, he's 15 and a half 15. And more than that, I don't even know anymore. My husband lives with type two diabetes. I do not have diabetes, but I have a background in broadcasting and that is how you get the podcast which we've been doing now. for more than five years, and I have been wanting to talk about the Baby-Sitters Club for a long time, I mean, we have talked about it because many guests over the years have said that it was very influential to them, either. They read it and really were touched by Stacey's story, the character who lives with type one, or somebody else read it and diagnose them because of it. That happened at least once to one of my guests. It's really incredible to think about these books, and the impact they've had on our community. So when I saw column in Elle magazine recently, about the Netflix adaptation, I really wanted to talk to Robin Benway, the author, I knew she'd be fun to talk to just by her writing voice in the magazine, and she really was and Robin also had some unique insight about the books and about the adaptation, and I was really excited to talk to her. We also talked about diabetes in other media, you know, I think a lot of us cringe when we know there's going to be a depiction of diabetes and a show or they mentioned insulin and we Oh, we know what's coming. So it was fun to talk to Robin about that. And to kind of spotlight some good stuff that's actually out there. All right, I'm going to talk about my reaction in more depth to Baby-Sitters Club in a little bit of a review, but I'm going to do that later on. Because this is a longer episode. We've got two interviews, we've got Robin. And I also spoke to a dad who wrote a picture book rhyming kids book for about his little boy, and it's called year one with type one, and that is with Mike Suarez. So that's coming up in just a bit but first, diabetes Connections is brought to you by One Drop, and I spoke to the people at One Drop was really impressed at how much they get diabetes. It makes sense their CEO Jeff was diagnosed with type one as an adult. One Drop is for people with diabetes by people with diabetes. The people at One Drop work relentlessly to remove all barriers between you and the care you need. Get 24 seven coaching support in your app and unlimited supplies delivered. No prescriptions or insurance required there. Beautiful sleek meter fits in perfectly with the rest of your life. They'll also send you test strips with a strip plan that actually makes sense for how much you actually check. One Drop diabetes care delivered, learn more, go to Diabetes, Connections comm and click on the One Drop logo. My guest this week is a National Book Award winner and a New York Times best selling author. She wrote a column about the Baby-Sitters Club and her reaction to it in Elle magazine. That's what caught my eye. I reached out and said, Would you talk to us but to come on the show? She said sure. And we had a great conversation. Now she grew up with a father who lived with Type One Diabetes, but she herself was not diagnosed until she was an adult. So her perspective on the Baby-Sitters Club, which she loved, as you'll hear as a kid was very different because she wasn't relating to the type one aspect about it right away. I'm also curious to know what you thought of the Baby-Sitters Club. I'm going to be putting more about this in the Facebook group. We've talked about it a little bit, but we'll put more posts in there and get your take. And as I said earlier, I'm going to put a little bit more of my review, although you'll you'll hear much of it in the interview. But a little bit more later on. Here is my talk with Robin Benway. Robin, thank you so much for jumping on to talk about this. I really appreciate it. It's I'm looking forward to talking with you. Yeah, same here. Thank you so much for having me. All right before we jump into the Baby-Sitters Club, and I have a lot to talk about with that. Let me ask you just the basics. You were diagnosed as a young adult, right you were in your in your mid 20s? Robin Benway 5:28 Yes, I was 26 it was July of 2003. I was diagnosed I was diagnosed with celiac disease at the same time I was having really low iron problems I was having anemia so they started doing a lot of bloodwork just to find out what was going on and started noticing that I had elevated blood sugar levels. And my father, who was my biological father was also a type one diabetic. So once they saw those blood sugar levels being elevated, they started to put things together pretty quickly. And so I in a, you know, a very strange way felt very lucky that I was diagnosed that way that it didn't progress to the point where I had to be hospitalized or my blood sugar's were, you know, four or five 600 or something like that, that I was diagnosed sort of accidentally and was able to catch it pretty early and could start, you know, meeting with an endocrinologist and started taking insulin pretty soon after that. So there was no mistaking at that age, oh, maybe it's type two, maybe it's something else because of your father, they pretty much went right there. At first, they were like, maybe it's type two. There was a lot of I think, you know, this was 17 years ago. So I think now, the way that people are diagnosing type one and people in their 20s and 30s is very different than it was 17 years ago. I think that was when people were just starting to see that, at least based on my experience and the responses that I was getting from doctors at the time. You know, I had grown up knowing that my dad was diabetic, but in our family, we had always sort of been under the impression that once you hit 12 or 13 years old, you're sort of out of the woods of that, you know, I think a lot of they used to call juvenile demise you know, because they were diagnosis of young. So I think it was a real shock because I had always thought, okay, I'm out of the woods. I'm fine. And that wasn't the case. But they definitely did think it was type two. They started me on oral medications at first Metformin, but nothing worked. And I remember I still remember the first time I took insulin, it was just like, oh, that was the problem. You know, that's what I need because my blood sugar's just came down to right where they should be. So, you know, it was a little disheartening knowing that I was going to have to go on insulin, but at the same time, that relief of knowing that now here's the drug that works was it balanced it out? Stacey Simms 7:36 Do you remember I've been told this by other adults that I've talked to that what that first dose of insulin feels like, Do you remember that? Robin Benway 7:44 I do. Remember, I was staying at my mom's house. I was living alone at the time and I thought I don't want to be alone when I take my first dose of insulin just in case. And I remember it dropped. My blood sugar's a little lower. They were like maybe in the mid 60s, and I just remember, I didn't feel shaky but I just remember feeling less. It's that feeling of a sugar rush basically, you know when your blood sugars are high I for me personally, I definitely feel a little agitated, a little edgy, you know a little bit more, I don't know Piper's the word but just a little fuzzier. And I just remember that feeling going away. And I remember also being so terrified of like having to give myself an injection like having to give myself a shot. And I was incredibly amazed at how easy it was and how painless it was. I had always imagined that it would just be a torturous experience, you know, mostly because your experience with injections is like vaccinations or inoculations. You know, it's Earth flu shot. It's a very different experience. Give yourself a shot of insulin. And I remember feeling that relief also of Oh, I can do this. Okay, this is something that I can do. Wow. Yeah. So Stacey Simms 8:50 the article that I'd mentioned, you start out by talking about this high spot in your career, the National Book Awards Gala and then the reality of being an adult with type one, which is go to the bathroom, I get up your formal gown, you know, giving an injection. And, you know, certainly a great way to start the article. But I'm curious, do you share your diabetes experiences with your friends and family? I mean, not everybody has to be giving themselves injections at the table. Right? I know. I'm sure you're not hiding things. I don't mean to imply that. Oh, as a mom, that was the first thing I thought of was, oh, my goodness in the bathroom. She okay. Yeah. Robin Benway 9:29 You know, I obviously all of my friends and family know about it. I'm not someone who would ever conceal that part of me. It's not something that I ever feel ashamed of, or feel like I need to keep secret. That's certainly not it at all. I think. For me, it's more about I'm very conscientious of other people's reactions to blood and to syringes or needles, and I just don't want to ever make someone I definitely have known people and I've heard of people who just give themselves an injection right at the table, you know, or will check their blood sugar under the table. And for me, I'm just not comfortable. That just in terms of making other people uncomfortable, but also sometimes things go wrong, you know, like, sometimes, you know, there's a little bit more blood than you thought there would be or you hit a blood vessel when you're injecting yourself with insulin. And, you know, sometimes it's just easier to be in, even if it's a public restroom, you know, it's still a confined space. And sometimes just the privacy is sorted out is something that I prefer but in terms of being open, I definitely I talk about it. I do a lot of school visits with my job, you know, writing for young adults and young people, I do a lot of school visits. And I always talk about how I was diagnosed and how that changed the trajectory of my life. And I always say to kids, who here knows somebody with diabetes, and almost every kid raises their hand you know, whether it's type one or type two, it doesn't really matter to me, I just, I know that they can make a connection with what I'm saying and relate it to either themselves or someone that they love in their lives. No doubt. Stacey Simms 10:53 Yeah, I think that's to is the difference between my my personal experience of type 1 diabetes is my 15 year old who has made a career out Have trying to gross out his friends. Yeah, no, since the third grade watch this. Yeah, slightly different experience than a grown woman in Robin Benway 11:09 that dress. You know? It's expensive. You just really don't want to get anything on this. Stacey Simms 11:15 So let's talk about the Baby-Sitters Club. Now I'm a little bit older so my guilty reading pleasure as a kid was worse sweet Valley High then Babysitter's Club, also say, okay, okay. But were you a fan of this as a kid, this was something that you read and you look forward to. Robin Benway 11:32 Oh, I cannot even describe to you like how much I love the Baby-Sitters Club. Like, I can just remember going to my local bookstore, you know, the Walden books that was in the mall at the time when there were still Walden books in malls and scanning the shelf and just looking for the new one and either being so excited when there was a new one or so disappointed when, you know, they came out every month and you know, on day 30 I'd be like, Where's the next one you know, and sharing with your friends or your Got the new super special, so then they would loan it to you and super specials were bad. But yes, I mean, just when I think about the Baby-Sitters Club, because I've also talked a lot about, you know, what is sort of my formative reading now as a writer, like, what did I read as a child and a young adult that sort of made me a writer? I think the two things about the Baby-Sitters Club is that they were so funny. And I think I learned how to write humor and really good dialogue from those books. I think you can't really teach how to write humor or write something funny, but I think if you can see it, you can see how either rapid fire dialogue or really smart responses or interrupting each other like, that was formative for me as a writer was seeing how they did that. And then also just as like a 11 1213 year old girl, you know, that is where, and I'm sure a lot of women and girls have had this experience, your friendships just kind of implode. And nobody really knows why. But suddenly, your best friend in sixth grade is your biggest enemy in seventh grade. And the factions are changing all the time and who's friends with who and who's not friends with who and who Did what to whom it's traumatic, it's a really difficult experience. It's a big part of growing up, but it's still difficult. And the thing with the Baby-Sitters Club was that at the end of the book, they were always friends. So you could see the sort of regeneration of friendship again and again and again. And for me, it was very comforting. You know, when sort of my female friendships were in turmoil, it was so lovely to see these girls work through things and stay friends in the end. So those were, I think the two things that kept me coming back to the book, but a great way to look at it. Stacey Simms 13:29 Yeah, but you as a reader, your type one experience was with your dad. So I imagined Stacey McGill, the character in the book who has type one wasn't somebody who could really relate to that wasn't what you were reading the books at the Robin Benway 13:42 time? Absolutely not. Absolutely not. You know, I actually I shied away from Stacey as a reader. You know, I loved I moved to New York when I was 18 years old. I've always wanted to live in New York. So reading her as a 12 year old I was like, Oh, that's she's a sophisticated city girl. You know, that's how they always portrayed her. She's From New York City, but that was my favorite part of her but there were books where either she was just diagnosed or I think there's a book later in the series where she was hospitalized. And I had a hard time reading those just because at the time my dad's health he had been a diabetic for 30 years at that point, so his health had gone up and down, you know, just the nature of the disease and the nature of treatment at the time as well. It wasn't as advanced as what we have now. So you know, it was scary to see my dad go through that and I, Baby-Sitters Club was my safe place. You know, that was my fun, safe, circular path of Stony Brook Connecticut. I didn't want a hospital or an insulin shot coming into it. So I don't say I didn't like Stacey as a character. I love Stacey as a character but in terms of what she went through, I just I really shied away from that. That wasn't I was much more a Claudia dawn girl. So yeah. Stacey Simms 14:54 How did you approach the Netflix series you've lived with type one now for a while. We all know that they never get it right in In media, I really looked looked at the show. I look very much forward with a lot of trepidation. I was almost afraid to watch it. What was your reaction? Robin Benway 15:09 I mean, I literally had an alert set on Netflix to remind me that the Baby-Sitters Club will be on Friday, July 3, and then I got the notification. I was so excited for it just because I had loved the books. And you know, I don't know any of the creators personally, but I was familiar with their work and their backgrounds. And I had read a lot of articles by that point about how they had approached the material and I just had a really good feeling about it. You know, I just thought that this is possibly in really good hands. And honestly, I wasn't even thinking about it in terms of Stacey and diabetes. I was thinking about it as oh my gosh, I'm now something that I was a fan of for so long. I can now watch on television. You know, I was even thinking about Stacey, so when I did start to watch it. I mean, I thought it was nearly perfect. I thought that they kept the spirit. I love that they kept the girls young, you do feel like you're watching 12 and 13 year old girls, b 12 and 13 year old girls, you know, and all of the struggles that go into that, but all of their I don't say immaturity, but just that feeling of they're still young, they're still figuring things out. They're not 17 years old in high school, you know, they're still little girls and I thought that was really important what the books were and to the show, and I just thought the way they modernized the material was perfect. You know, they talk about Claudius grandmother being in bands and our you know, Claudia is Japanese American and talk about her grandmother being advanced in our when she was young. And you know, at one point Marianne is babysitting for a kid who's transgender and that would have never been in the past 30 years ago, and I just thought they did a beautiful job of modernizing not only the characters, but the storylines while still staying true to what the spirit of the books was. They did Stacey Simms 16:45 a nice job with that too. And they did this many times where they would put something in like that, you know, the child who was transgender, but the storyline wasn't so much about that child. It was the babysitter character's reaction to it and reflection of it. But I thought was going to throw this word up. I really thought it was masterfully done. Yes, she learned more about her. And yes, there was a there was a lesson there. And, you know, I know there's a lot of criticism from people who get uncomfortable with those kinds of issues, but I thought it was so well done. And they did it many, many times over. And my 18 year old who's really conscious of those things right now, I was really impressed. I thought it was really well done. But I was very worried about the truth about Stacey, I was like, Oh, no, because we see this happen so many times in media, and I think they got a couple of things that adults would notice kind of wrong. Boy, did they hit it out of the park, in terms of what younger people would see. Robin Benway 17:41 What did you see in Stacey, what I see in myself. Here's a girl who has many, many things. But one of those things is diabetic. It is not the arc of her life is not the big picture of who she is. It's one thing and there's a scene where she goes to babysit and her blood sugar feels a little bit low and she pulls out a juice box and I realized that I had never seen that in media before. You know, I hadn't seen this girl or any girl or any woman just do that she feels better she keeps going. I mean, I have had literally hundreds of juice boxes on the road working, traveling, you know, so many so many juice boxes go down in bathroom stalls and downstairs bathrooms and you know, just you do what you have to do that's important. And then your blood sugar's come back up and you move on. And I was shocked to how blown away I was by that because it's such a simple act, but it is such a big part of managing your blood sugar and managing diabetes. Stacey Simms 18:35 Yeah. Didn't you expect her not to do that and faint or have to go home from a babysitting job? That's that's what I think we all expected her to do. It was such a nice normal. No, I'm fine. Robin Benway 18:45 Yeah. And I also I did like there is a scene I think at the end where it's sort of like a neighborhood meeting with all the parents of the kids that they watch and though the girls are explaining what it what this means for Stacey and how this works, and I liked that they introduced the doubt of the parents. Because I think that's, it's the pushback that you get like, are you okay? Can you handle this? You know, there's this feeling of, are you just gonna collapse at any moment? Are you safe and I like that they were like, this is how we this is how Stacey manages that this is how she handles it like these are factors in her daily life, but she's also smart enough and mature enough and knowledgeable enough to take care of herself. And I thought that that was a really good message as well to see that some people may not understand it. And here we are explaining to you what this is. Really, if we had had that exact discussion, not as a group of parents, because we aren't lucky enough to have a Baby-Sitters Club in my neighborhood. Stacey Simms 19:37 One of our babysitter's when my children were younger, has type one. And when Lauren would come over we the first couple times we talked about, well, what would happen if you had a low blood sugar and what would happen if this happens, and we talked about all of that, and it was funny, I saw a few adults in the community commenting on the show, and they that would never happen. parents wouldn't talk about it that way. And then they also and I said yes, well, I'm sorry, but we did. Mother's overreaction, right? No mother would overreact like that. I was like, Hello, I mice my son's very first low blood sugar when it was a bad enough low sugar that we had to treat with more than just a juice box. We were about three weeks in, I called my endocrinologist convinced he was gonna send us to the ER, Mm hmm. Right? Okay, we treated it. His blood sugar's coming up. What do we do now? They were like, What do you mean? But I thought we were gonna go in for tests or something. So that kind of confusion really made me laugh, because in the show, she actually did wind up going to the hospital for the day. But in our experience, I mean, I did call I can't say that I didn't. So it was pretty funny to see our real life reflected in that way. I did also like the mom turn around by the end, but it was more as we mentioned earlier, it was more about Stacey and less about the other character. She turned it around. Robin Benway 20:52 Well, going back to the mom, you know, I was diagnosed at 26 I know how much my mom still worries about me to this day like she would never Say that you're stupid ever say it explicitly. And I'm sure the way you worry about your children and your son, you know, there's just always going to be the worry. I think that's also very much based on who Stacey's mom and her parents were in the books as well. They were very anxious about her disease. And I think that was really important to see that, you know, Stacey is managing many different facets of this disease, including what is other people's reaction to it, including, what is her? What are her parents reactions to her? And it and I like that they were able to have that conversation and the confusion between this is who I am versus this is how you're making me feel. I mean, I think those are things that every young person feels even if they're not dealing with a chronic disease or not diabetic, how are you reacting to me versus how I want you to react to me, so I thought they did a really good job with that, but it's just tricky because every person you meet is going to react completely differently to your diagnosis and regardless of how you react to it. And so that's another thing that you're always navigating is, I mean, I'm sure your son has heard this. I'm sure every diabetic has heard this, but we Hear the Oh yeah, my uncle had it. He lost a leg or he now he's blind. You know, everybody write tragic stories and you have to sort of put up a barrier and remind yourself okay, well, that's not me that is your uncle or your dad or whoever. So I think that was for me as I bet seeing Stacey navigate the reactions of other people I thought was really important as well because that is a big part of it. Stacey Simms 22:22 Robin Well, I have you and as you listen, Robin is a National Book Award winner New York Times bestselling author, six novels for young adults. I want to ask you, Robin, why is it so hard to write genuinely for young people? Robin Benway 22:38 I think for me, you know, six books in now at this point is empathy. It's the very first thing that it has to be the biggest part of every book is empathy. I think it's very easy to like see young people today and be like you kids with your tic tac toe and your snip snap, you know, like they don't, you know, people it's very, very easy to look at what is this? What are we in now, generally See, I guess and look at them and think, well, in my day, we had this and not that we weren't on our phones all day. I mean, I'm on my phone all day. I'm a 43 year old woman. So I don't you know, I'm not gonna judge a 15 year old for being on their phone all day. But I think for me, the biggest thing is empathy, because nothing really changes, right? Like we're all still figuring out how to get along with our friends. Who do we want to be? How do we get along with our parents? How do we move through the world? You know, I as you get older, you hope you get wiser you hope you have more experience that makes you grow mentally, you hope that you maybe have a little bit more agency and a little bit more ability to vocalize how you feel and how to stand up for yourself but the struggles are still the same. You know, the way you get along with your teachers the kind of the same way we all get along with a boss or sometimes in a classroom, you have to be with people you don't really want to be with same as in an office space. You know, sometimes you have co workers. So I think the feelings are always the same. The technology doesn't matter. The place doesn't really matter for me. It's just The feelings whether it's love or family or friendships, Stacey Simms 24:03 have you ever considered putting type one into one of your books? Yes, Robin Benway 24:08 I have. I've definitely over the years, I've had conversations with different editors or people in publishing. And they've said, like, hey, you're diabetic, would you ever think about writing a book about diabetes? I think the thing is for me, and this is something that I've really, really, it's why I don't speak publicly about being a diabetic so much is that I don't want it to become the only thing that people think of when they think of me again, I'm not ashamed of it, I'm very open with it. But at the same time, you don't want to just become Oh, that's Robin, she's the diabetic, you know, we we are all more than just one thing. And so I know that if I do a book about being a diabetic or a character who has diabetes, I will have to talk about that book for years, you know, hopefully, you know, one to two years. You know, it will become the defining part of every interview that I do every, you know, work conversation that I have, and Worry sometimes that it will dilute down to just me being the diabetic when I like I said I am so many other things as are pretty much every other diabetic out there we are more than just that disease. And so I do think about it. Also for me fiction is such a wonderful escape. I don't write books because I have to I write because I love writing books, especially for young people. And I think that for me, I love that escapism of it. I love that I am not having to figure out a character's blood sugar situation. I'm already I've got enough doing that for myself. So I don't know I think about it. Maybe as the years go by, maybe in a few years, I'll engage it. There would have to be a really good idea. It wouldn't just be Oh, this character has been diagnosed with diabetes, there would have to be more at play for me so. So I think about it, never say never, but if someone else wants to do it, go for it. Stacey Simms 25:52 You know, it's funny, I don't want to put too fine a point on it. But the first part of your answer there, which is you didn't want to be defined by Diabetes Connections. What Stacey's story is all about to Yes. And I think that's why we like it so much, because that's how almost everybody I know with any kind of diabetes feels. Yeah, right. Agreed. I think anybody with anything Robin Benway 26:11 like that, you know, it's very easy, especially in sort of these wild modern times to focus on maybe what is unknown or scary or, you know, baby, if people don't understand it, that's what they kind of go to first. But that's just not how I view and that's not how I view being diabetic. It's just so it's just a thread that's woven into my life, you know, I, it will always be there. It's something I will always manage. But it's so inherent to me. I don't want someone just to pull that thread out and only look at that rather than the bigger picture. Stacey Simms 26:41 Is there any depiction of type one in media that just makes you mad? Like, can you think of something where you're like, Oh, I hate that one. When people refer to that one, Robin Benway 26:48 I can definitely think of one thing but I can't say Robin Benway 26:52 but I it was fairly recent and yeah, it just I for me, it was sort of like that thing where you're just like, Are you serious? Like, is this really like, this is what you had to do, and this is what you did with it. And it just it was petty on my part. And, you know, mean, and I can't say it, but I got so frustrated and so annoyed. And, you know, I think that was a long simmering feeling that once I got to the depiction of Stacey, I think those two feelings just sort of combined and became an article which was I can't believe I just had to read this versus Oh, I can't believe I just saw this, you know, and that the negative and the positive of that sort of combined together, but yes, Stacey Simms 27:32 definitely. And then Baby-Sitters Club has got to have a season two, you know, is there anything that you remember reading that you really liked them to see? And it doesn't have to be about Stacey, oh gosh, Robin Benway 27:42 I really want to see Don's mom and Mary's dad get together. I know they were together in the first season but I if memory serves, they get married. So I really want to see that wedding. Just because I love Dawn's mom both in the book and on the show and I love the way that they've treated Maryam dad is fun. This is kind of sad, but in the opening scene. Louis, the Collie, you know, appears with Christie. It's Christie's dog Louie Who's that Collie dog. And I was like, Oh, no, Louis because I don't. If memory serves things get a little dicey. Oh, no. Stacey Simms 28:11 Sorry. Spoiler Robin Benway 28:13 alert. I really, I when I saw Louis, I was like, Louis, you know, Stacey Simms 28:19 it is amazingly six with us from what we read in our childhood, right. Robin Benway 28:24 Well, I was talking with a friend of mine about this. You don't realize how much you buried in your brain. You know, I'm watching the show. And I'm like, oh my god. It's Louis. Oh my gosh, it's more been a destiny. I forgot about a bit of destiny. And just Charlotte Johansen, Jamie Newton and his sister Lucy and I'm like, how do I remember all of this? And yet I'm like, did I pay that bill? See now I'm Stacey Simms 28:45 jealous. I want it I like sweet Valley High. backer revel in those memories. Robin Benway 28:52 I'm sure it's developing somewhere. Stacey Simms 28:54 I kind of hope not really cheesy. Can I ask you are you working on anything new right now I know authors always hate that. I know just finished and Oh, that was great. But what's that? Robin Benway 29:07 I always say it takes a brave person to ask a writer somebody working on because oh tread carefully. I am working on something. Yes, it has been a slow road. But the book has evolved many, many times. And I've sort of distilled down to what the book actually is. And I have started writing it. I feel really good about it. I started it a couple times, didn't feel good, went back to the drawing board ripped it all up again and started over. So I do feel good about it. Now it has taken me a long time to figure out what it's about. And I think at the same time, I was coming down off the success so far from the tree and the time that that took, which was wonderful, no complaints, but it was hard for me to both work on a new book and enjoy the success apart from the tree. So I am basically staying with family for a few months. I'm sort of quarantined away here and just everyday I sit down and write 1000 words and it's going well, it feels very, very good to be writing. Again, I haven't written for a while and I have missed it very much. That's fantastic. Well, I look forward to reading that. I'm so glad that I read the article. That was an L. Thank you so much for joining me to talk about this. It was a lot of fun. And I continue to learn more about the Baby-Sitters Club baby. Those books. Thanks so much for joining me. Thank you call me if you have any questions about the baby sitters. Stacey Simms 30:17 You got it Robin. Robin Benway 30:23 You're listening to Diabetes Connections with Stacey Simms. Stacey Simms 30:29 More information on Robin and her books on the episode homepage. I'm really appreciative that she jumped on with me and I definitely got to seek out her books now. It was funny to think about not just the Baby-Sitters Club books, which as I said, I was marginally familiar with as a kid I was a little too old. But the sweet Valley High books man, she made me want to see if my mother still has them. I bet she does. I guarantee you they do not hold up for where they are relic of their time. Right The 80s if you're familiar with sweet Valley High I know you know what I'm talking about. If you are not I will not suggest Due to any more of an explanation, all right, in just a moment, I will be talking to a different kind of book altogether a different kind of author, a dad who wrote a book about his son's diagnosis to help other kids and families. But first Hey welcome to our newest sponsor Diabetes Connections is brought to you by Gvoke HypoPen you know, almost everybody who takes insulin has experienced a low blood sugar and that can be scary. have very low blood sugar is really scary. And that's where Gvoke HypoPen comes in. Gvoke is the first auto injector to treat very low blood sugar Gvoke HypoPen is pre mixed and ready to go with no visible needle and that means it is easy to use. How easy is it, you pull off the red cap, you push the yellow end under bare skin and you hold it for five seconds. That's it. Find out more go to Diabetes connections.com and click on the Gvoke logo. Gvoke shouldn't be used in patients with pheochromocytoma or insulinoma. Visit Jeeva glucagon comm slash risk If you have a child diagnosed very young with Type One Diabetes, chances are you have a favorite book about diabetes that you read together. We were so lucky to have a couple of these Rufus comes home was one from JDRF. There was another one that I've mentioned before called Jackie's got game that we absolutely adored. There are a lot of wonderful books now for kids with type one. And this week, I am talking to one of the authors of these books. And that is Mike's for as he wrote year one with type one, four and featuring his son, Andrew, it's all about their diagnosis story and also a bit of a teaching tool. Here's my conversation with Mike. Mike, thanks so much for joining me. It's great to talk to you. Mike Suarez 32:43 Hi, Stacey. Thanks for having me on. Stacey Simms 32:45 One of the things I loved doing when my son was diagnosed was finding books that we could read together. And you know, My son was tiny, he wasn't yet too. And so when you have a picture book like this, it's really a nice opportunity to go through it with the kids. So I just want to let you know that They really appreciate what you've done here. I think it's great. Mike Suarez 33:02 Yeah, thanks for saying that. You know, it's kind of the same experience I had, you know, I went to Amazon when he first got diagnosed, and I was looking for books myself, and I found some pretty good ones out there. But I was, you know, really looking for one that really kind of resonated and something that I could share with my own family members and friends to really kind of drive home what it is that he goes through and what it's all about. Stacey Simms 33:23 Well, it's been a couple of years now since Andrew was diagnosed, but why don't you take us through? Even though you're talking about it in the book, why don't you take us through his diagnosis story? Had you all had any experience with type one Had you ever given an injection before and this, Mike Suarez 33:36 so I was unfamiliar entirely with Type One Diabetes. My wife was more aware of it because she had friends growing up and in college that had type one diabetes, and she was around people that have given themselves insulin injections. And for me, I was just totally unaware of this condition. I was totally aware of of the treatment for it. The only thing I knew of diabetes was unfortunately, just That joke that people like to tell around how if you eat too much candy, you get diabetes. And that's basically all I knew of diabetes, which obviously isn't true or isn't fair and especially isn't isn't true of type one diabetes. So I learned a ton, just in that that first few days in the hospital, Stacey Simms 34:15 when did it occur to you that with everything else that's going on, it would be a good idea to write a book. Mike Suarez 34:21 So it was probably a couple months shy of his first year with it. I don't know how the idea popped into my head. I was taking the train in and out of Boston every day for work. And I think just a few lines kind of popped into my head. So I took out my iPhone and just wrote him in my notes app. And I think part of it too, was that my wife and I were talking about bringing a book into school, to read to his classmates, know what it is that he has and goes through and know why it is that he has to leave and see the nurse and why it is he gets, you know, Skittles every once in a while and he's in class. And, you know, going through the books out there, you know, again, there were good ones, but I was just looking for the right one that told the story I wanted to tell his classmates in the way that I wanted to, you know, I've seen that a lot of the other books out there are actually self published. So I knew that the opportunity to do this was out there, you just had to kind of sit down and figure it out. So I utilize my train time in and out of Boston to kind of write and refine my lines and kind of do a little bit of research to figure out what the process was all about Stacey Simms 35:26 was the idea for you to write it for kids to read or for parents to read. I mean, it's the kind of book right, it's in rhyme. But there's some concepts in there that are going to be above a four year olds head. Mike Suarez 35:38 Right. I think what I wanted, most of all, well, I guess there were a few goals. There were a few readers I had in mind. One was the newly diagnosed I wanted for newly diagnosed children to be able to read this and be able to relate to Andrews story and be comforted to know that you're not alone in this that there's other people that have been through Through this and have dealt with it. So that was maybe my primary audience secondary to that would be kind of the friends and family of somebody who is newly diagnosed, including my own friends and family so that they can get an appreciation for what it is and kind of understand what it is that their, you know, diabetic friend or family member goes through. But I guess, you know, I was just thinking about when I read to my own kids, you know, a lot of time it's me reading to them, not them. I guess as they get older, it's more of them reading to themselves, but it's mostly me reading to them. So I can, you know, kind of pronounce the big words, but also the books that we tend to enjoy the most, or that I enjoy reading the most and they seem to be the most receptive to are the ones that rhyme. So I did want to have that kind of make it accessible for kids not make it kind of a chore to read. And that's something that I none of the other books that I saw did was was kind of right in verse so I wanted to have that aspect of it to be accessible. Similarly with the pictures and the drums I wanted them to be kind of, you know, light hearted in a way as much as it's a serious subject matter, but to make it accessible for kids to understand, Stacey Simms 37:08 the book tells the story of you know, your family's journey, and then educating people about the basics of type 1 diabetes. But at the very end, your son has signed it and say, thank you. How did that piece come about? Mike Suarez 37:23 One thing I haven't mentioned yet is I actually did this whole thing in secret, because I did it on my train rides, and nobody was watching me and then at night, I would, you know, once everybody wants it bad, I'd maybe work on it a little bit more. And this includes the whole process, finding the illustrations, kind of framing it for them, getting beta readers to help sharpen up the the rhyme and all that sort of thing. And I wanted this kind of personal touch because I wanted people to read it and realize that this wasn't a fictional character that this is a real boy. There was maybe the same day that I asked Andrew to write up a birthday card for a birthday party he was going to I just took out another piece of paper and just asked them to write on it. Thank you for reading love Andrew. And he asked me What's this for? And I just was like, I don't worry about it. Like I didn't really, I just asked him to do it. Then I put it all together. And then I when it was finally done, I got to read it to my family for the first time, you know, naturally they all loved it. But I think it was I read it first to my wife and son while my daughter was napping, because I didn't, I kind of wanted to, you know, have their full attention. But after she woke up, Andrew took the book, and he showed it to her. And he flipped immediately to that page that had his writing on it, and was like, so proud of having that contribution to the book. That was the first thing he showed his little sister. That's great. Stacey Simms 38:41 There's a page of the book that, you know, has him coming home and has gifts and things with a lot of beams on tags. Are those friends and family names. Mike Suarez 38:51 Yep, they were basically you know, the people that probably were the first to find out and you know, felt, you know, really bad and came to us with, with just some gifts for Andrew, including our next door neighbors and their kids, my sister and her husband and their kids, basically, you know, aunts, uncles, siblings, it just so happened that some of the names rhymed. So if you read them in order, even though the name tags kind of, you know, rhyme together, when I recognized that I was like, you know, I should put them all in there and kind of, you know, thank, you know, some of the people that were, you know, part of this journey and a part of kind of coping with all of this. Stacey Simms 39:31 Yeah, I think it's really well done. The one thing I would say is, there's this little bit about no sneaking snacks. We count carbs to know what goes into my body, but no sneaking snacks. That's beyond being naughty. Yeah, I'm no psychologist, but I always felt like sneaking and and associating any bad behavior with diabetes was something that maybe it was something that we never did. Let's just write that way in my house. We always said you can't get in trouble for anything to do with diabetes, it just flies off the books. So that's the only thing that kind of made my eyebrows go up a little bit. But Gosh, Mike, I'm not really not a critic here. Sure, you know, and I think that's also a good illustration, no pun intended that we all parent in different ways. Yeah. Right. I mean, there's no one size fits all you got to put insulin in, you got to know where your blood sugar is. Yeah. But you know, the way you parent is probably not exactly the way I parent and that's fine. Right. So that I was just curious. And you know, you showed it to your endo. I think that's, again, with my book, I did the same thing, right. You know, you're not a medical professional, but you're showing it to the medical professionals and hoping that they will flag anything that comes up. I'm also curious to know, your daughter makes a couple of appearances in the book, and she's one of those names that we mentioned. Who is she doing and how do you balance the son who gets all this attention for type one and trust me, I have the same situation in my family, right. I have an older daughter who doesn't have type one. How do you handle that with her? How is she doing? Mike Suarez 41:00 Yeah, I mean, she's just as used to it by now as as Andrew, you know, Andrew was four and a half, she was one and a half. So she has no memory, you know, whereas Andrew may may recall, he's he's a, he's got a pretty good memory for a kid his age, he may recall a time before all of this, she would have absolutely no memory. So this is all she's ever kind of grown up to now. So whereas if they were teenagers, then maybe if she was used to just, you know, snacking whenever she wanted, she would continue to do that, despite Andrews diagnosis, but because we're able to kind of be careful around that about that stuff from the outset. If it's not time for Andrew to eat, then we're not going to let her eat in front of him. But if we're you know, giving Andrew you know, something to bring his blood sugar up, if it's maybe a pack of Smarties or something like that, and we only need to give them eight of the 10 then maybe we'll give her the other two, but it is interesting to see how she internalizes as she gets older, how she responds to it, somewhat funny side note around it She sees Andrew take shots all the time and she doesn't get them herself. And sometimes she sees Andrew get shots and she like, asks or she at least at least did this. earlier on, she would say, where's Maggie shot? Where's Maggie shot? And we would explain No, Maggie doesn't need a shot. So I think it was last year when we took her to get a flu shot. She was all about getting her flu shot right. After she got it, she asked for another one. And she was like crying because not because she got the shot, but because she only got one, which was kind of backwards from what you'd expect a kid raised to do. And then another kind of similar story is there was one day where she closed like a dresser draw on her finger and her fingernail started bleeding and you would expect a kid her age to just start wailing. She actually picked up her finger and she was like check my blood sugar. Check my blood sugar. Mike Suarez 42:51 You also wrote a Christmas story. Yep. Why did that come about? Tell me that story? Mike Suarez 42:59 Yeah, sure. So When you're one with type one first came out, yeah, I created a Facebook page to kind of go along with it to give updates about Andrew and to kind of, you know, create some fun memes and things like that to kind of draw attention to it. And I created a kind of a spin on Twas the Night Before Christmas. And every once in a while, like a new couple lines would occur to me even after Christmas, and I would kind of go back and edit the post. And then at some point, I was like, you know, there's probably enough here and there's probably enough opportunity for reuse from my first book that, you know, I wouldn't even be that many more new illustrations. I could just turn this into another book, relatively inexpensively and you know, certainly justify the cost that goes into it. And so I said, Yeah, why not? So I just kind of thought through it and just kind of threw it together and I was really happy with the way it came out. Stacey Simms 43:50 So Mike, we celebrate Hanukkah. I'm not sure how well versed I am in this classic poem, right? But it seems to me that all of the reindeer have Dexcom on I'm not sure I remember that from the original Am I looking at this right? Do they all have Dexcom Mike Suarez 44:07 everybody everybody basically everybody in the story that the Dexcom the reindeer have all all of Dexcom on the Elf on the Shelf has one Santa has one basically everybody in the book and that's what I wanted to create was kind of a world where you know what, it's okay that everybody in the story has it. Stacey Simms 44:25 All right, so what's next? Well, there'll be another issue of this are you gonna move on to the elementary school ages Andrew, you know, with seven now so it's a little different than when he was little? Mike Suarez 44:35 Yeah, it's a good question. I'd certainly like to do you know, to continue Andrews story. I haven't really started anything yet. But I've got a few ideas floating around. I mean, I think one of the things I realized is that there's actually more children's books that are picture books than there are kind of chapter books. That's obviously a whole different ballgame. Then picture books, but my mother in law's actually she's an author. As well, and she's written lots of novels. So if I do decide to go down that road, it'll probably be a lot more work than I did for these other ones. But I certainly would have, you know, a mentor throughout the process. If I did go down that route. Stacey Simms 45:13 It'd be great to have more books with a protagonist who lives with type one. And it's not about type one, if I could put a request in. Yeah, no, it would be really nice. There's a few books and I'll, as you listen, I'll link some of them up in the show notes. But there are a few books Besides, you know, the Baby-Sitters Club that feature Stacey who lives with type one, but it's a little outdated at this point. And the lily books, there are some I hesitate to call them novels. They're like novelizations for middle schoolers and stuff like that. It'd be great. There's only a couple of books I can think of that have a protagonist who lives with type one, but the book is really not about the diabetes. Mike Suarez 45:47 Right. So yeah, Stacey Simms 45:48 that's, I'll put my vote in for that. Mike Suarez 45:50 Yeah, certainly. I think that's a great idea. Stacey Simms 45:53 Well, Mike, I really appreciate you coming on. These books are so fun. I have a lot of great memories of reading the book that we liked. When he was little Jackie's got game was our favorite. I don't even know if they're still printing that one. But that was the one we loved. So I hope that people find this and love it, you know, kind of just like we did that stories. Thanks for coming on and sharing your story. Sure, Mike Suarez 46:13 yeah. Thanks so much for having me. Stacey Simms 46:14 You can find out more about Mike's book, just go to Diabetes connections.com and click on the episode homepage. This is in the show notes. Every episode has show notes on whatever app you're listening to. If you listen to podcast apps, they will display a little bit differently. I think Spotify is finally letting people click through. In other words, if there's a link in the show notes, you can get there through Spotify, but you can always go to the homepage at Diabetes connections.com. if things aren't showing up in your player and find out more there, tell me something good is up next. And boy, there have been so many changes this year with COVID and the JDRF bike rides not an exception, but there's some really good news about one particular writer and I'm going to share that but first diabetes Connections is brought to you by Dexcom. Do you know about Dexcom Clarity. It is their diabetes management software. For a long time, I just thought it was something our endo used, but you can use it on both the desktop or as an app on your phone. And it's an easy way to keep track of the big picture. I check it about once a week. It really helps me in many dial back and sees longer term trends and helps us not to overreact to what happened for just one day or even just one hour. The overlay reports help add context to Benny's glucose levels and patterns. And you can share the reports with your care team. We've done that all this year with the virtual appointments makes it so much easier and productive. managing diabetes is not easy, but I feel like we have one of the very best CGM systems working for us Find out more at Diabetes connections.com and click on the Dexcom logo a couple of years ago I met a local woman here in the Charlotte North Carolina area who lives with type 1 diabetes. Dana Cumberworth first impression that she made me was that this might be one of the fittest people I would ever meet and come to find out she is really Just an athlete, just one of these people who is always always moving and pushing and thriving with type one she bikes she runs she weight trains. Dana was diagnosed as a student. She was a first year student at Wake Forest and their physician's assistant program. And how she was diagnosed is pretty incredible because they were doing the endocrinology part of the class. And when her lab partner tested Dana's blood sugar, it came back at 700. So she was diagnosed in the class while she was diagnosed at the doctor's office the next morning. Fast forward. She has since done I believe, three Iron Man races and then she started getting involved with jdrf. And the bike rides this year was two been a very big deal for Dana because this is her 10 year diaversary. It was just last week actually that she marks 10 years with type one, and she was going to do several if not all of the rides this year. Oh my goodness. But of course plans changed. Everything went virtual. So she and her husband and friends planned ahead To the beach to the east coast here of Charlotte, North Carolina, and do their own version of the ride there. This was supposed to happen this past week. But if you've been following the weather and the hurricane trackers, then you probably know that hurricane eecs was a big problem here in North Carolina. So instead of being able to complete this at the beach, in fact, with the way the podcasting time shifts here, she will have completed 100 miles in Charlotte with some friends and family. So that is absolutely amazing. She set a new goal she keeps surpassing her monetary goals. So her new goal set just a couple of days before that ride is $20,200 because as she said in one of the videos she makes 2020 has already been unbelievable. So why not push that goal? That way? She's not that far off. So 2020 $20,200 and oh, I have forgotten to mention that Dana and her husband announced a couple of weeks ago that she is pregnant, I believe at this point. She's about 1819 weeks along. Hi, I'm going to put some of her videos in the Facebook group because she's been talking about her journey this whole year. And I just think her story is amazing. I will link up some of the videos that she's been doing into the Facebook group at Diabetes Connections, the group, but yeah, hundred miles, type 1 diabetes pregnant. And when you look at her smile, it just looks like it's a piece of cake. She's so inspirational to me, especially to push on with everything that's happened this year and how this ride keeps getting changed and changed and changed. So congratulations, Dana. Continued Good luck and good health to you and your family. And we will cheer you on. If you have something good going on. It doesn't have to be 100 miles of biking while you're pregnant. It can be you know, a diaversary milestone that makes you and your family happy or something that you really want to shout to the hills. Let me know you can email me Stacey at Diabetes Connections comm or post in the Facebook group Just tell me something good At the top of the show, I said I was going to talk a little bit more about the Baby-Sitters Club, the TV show on Netflix. And I think that Robin and I covered it pretty well. But I just wanted to say a couple of more quick things about the actual depiction that I realized we didn't touch on in the interview. If you haven't seen it, or you've had I'm curious what you think the feedback I heard from my friends who have kids with type one who watched it was that I don't know anybody who didn't like it universally, very well received by their kids. They loved seeing a beautiful young woman who was accepting of her condition who told her mom, you know, I'm going to do it this way. Who asked for a fancy purse, she didn't get the fancy purse. But you know, she did this for that Gucci bag. And you know, other things like that, which made it seem very normal. You know, she was low during babysitting, she drank the juice box and went on her way. It didn't seem insurmountable and her friends, the kids, I don't think Robin and I talked about this. The other babysitters in the club, when they found out said Why does somebody with diabetes or you can still do such And so with that, right? Okay, no problem and they really just moved along. Like most kids do, it's the adults that have more of a problem, the things I didn't like about it, they still got stuff wrong, which amazed me because I know that they had to be consulted with people who have type one for this, or at least I hope they did. But what they got wrong was the seizure. Did you see that she had a seizure before she was diagnosed, and they talked about it like she went into insulin shock. Now, I am not a medical expert. Perhaps that could happen. But it makes no sense to me that somebody who is not yet diagnosed with type one, so they are not taking any insulin could go into an insulin shock that would make them have a seizure. Right. It just seemed kind of a stretch. They wanted to do something that would make Stacey embarrassed to push the reason why they moved. It was just this whole I don't know to me that was a big turn off, but it was quick, and I get it it move the plot along. The other thing was this weirdness where that one low blood sugar, which Stacey treated herself causes her mother to take her in for a day of tests. Now, having been a very Worried Mother, I'm still one, let's face it. But when I called my endocrinologist every single day of the first month that Ben he had type one, which I really did do, they never told me bring him in for tests because he had a low blood sugar. Right? I could see a parent calling. I could see a parent being alarmed. I couldn't see an endocrinologist going along with that. And given Stacey was talking about how she was in the hospital for a whole day taking tests. So that was also a little weird. Is it nitpicky? Yeah. But if you're going to tackle something like type one, it's really not that hard to get it right. So I hope they continue to follow Stacey and show her confidence and show we're doing lots of other things that have nothing to do with diabetes. There's definitely gonna be a season two of this show. It's a huge hit. That means there's a lot of room to get it right. So I stay optimistic. What did you think I'm really curious to hear what other people have to say about this as more people discover the series before I let you go, I have something to ask of you and it is about podcast reviews. If you are still listening, I know you were a big fan. I would really appreciate it. If you haven't moment to go to whatever podcast player you're listening on and leave a review. Maybe you're listening on the website or through social media, but especially if you're on Apple podcasts, I'd really appreciate a review there. If you're not, you can head over to Apple podcasts easily find Diabetes Connections and hit subscribe. It's free to subscribe. no cost. It is free on any podcast player and we are everywhere you can get audio Spotify, Pandora, Apple, Google Android, if you're not sure, go to the website, Diabetes connections.com. Scroll down, and you will see 15 links of places to subscribe to the podcast. And you just you can pick one, chances are good, the app is already on your phone and subscribe for free and leave review. I'd really appreciate it. All right, thank you to my editor john Kenneth audio editing solutions. Thank you so much for listening. I'm Stacey Simms. I'll see you back here next week. Until then, be kind to yourself. Benny 55:01 Diabetes Connections is a production of Stacey Simms Media. All rights reserved. All wrongs avenged Transcribed by https://otter.ai r iPhone      Click here for Android

A conversation with Ashish Arora about how and why the interlocking American institutions that support technological change have evolved over time, their current strengths and weaknesses, and how they might change in the future. Ashish Arora is the Rex D. Adams Professor of Business Administration at the Fuqua School of Business at Duke University. His research focuses on the economics of technology and technical change and we spend most of this conversation focused on his recent paper: “The changing structure of American Innovation - some cautionary remarks for economic growth.” I tried an experiment this episode and wrote notes on the paper before the interview.  Key Takeaways Ashish introduces a useful framework by breaking the innovation world down into four players : academia, incumbent companies, inventors, and government and then look at how their relationships evolve over time. The current innovation system is well equipped to enable new products with large technology risks and almost no market risk (like new cancer drugs) or high market risks and almost no technology risks (like most software) but falls short in between those two extremes. A fuzzy one but it’s important to marinate in the constant complexity of the answer to ‘How does technology happen? ’   Notes Ashish’s Home Page Ashish on Twitter The Changing Structure of American Innovation My notes on the paper Steve Usselman’s Website Transcript (Experiment and automatically transcribed) [00:00:00] [00:01:00] just to start us off, , would you give a summary of the paper? I'm going to direct everybody to go read it, but just for people who are, are listening, like what, what do you think are the key things that you would want people to take away from reading your paper? So the paper itself is descriptive, but our objective data is to, to make, make one argument, which is that the way in which innovation in America is organized? Has changed over time. And there's a sense in which the system we have now is closer to what we had say at the turn of the night of the 20th century. So, you know, a hundred years [00:02:00] ago there are important differences. So that's, that's one from a descriptive point of view. There are important differences too. And we, you know, we can talk more about that, Ken. The part, which I think is, is most interesting. And perhaps also most speculative is, you know, two things. One, why has, why, why, what, what caused this change? What caused this system to evolve? And the second is, well, you know, is it good or bad? And you know, what, what might, what should one do about it? What could we do about it? , and I suspect we would spend some time on that as well. Yeah. I thought the, the dividing up the paper into different areas was, was really important., and so actually, would you say a little bit more about how,, the way that innovation is structured now resembles the way that it did at the turn of the 20th century? [00:03:00] So if you think let's start with today, right? If we think about today, we have the, the. Big tech companies. , but most people would say, you know, if you think about the innovation system today, we have sort of three sets of players, maybe four, we have the universities where, which do a lot of the research produce a lot of the fundamental knowledge and importantly, a lot of the, what economists call human capital people that, that do it. so that's one. The second part is, is the startup community, right? The startups and the VCs that fund them and all that kind of stuff. And the third are the firms, the, the incumbent firms, as we call them in economics, the peanut, the Googles, the Facebooks, but also the IBM's Microsoft and so on. And these, these are the different components. And if you go back to Adam Smith, He talked about a division of labor as being the quintessential aspect of capitalism. That [00:04:00] capitalism is this relentless force towards specialization. And what we have, you might think of it as a division of labor in innovation there, the universities that produce the research, the startups that take it and make it more commercially applicable. And then the incumbents that apply it. If you go back. Say two 1860s, that's kind of the system we had. We didn't have the universities, but we had independent inventors and we had people that backed them. And then those inventors would sell that inventions for the most part to companies that were producing, you know, early ones were railroads, for example. And so there's a sense of, you know, in that sense, it's similar. You could think of this as a splinter or a fragment system. I prefer to think of this as, as specialization and a division of innovative labor. Does that make sense? Yeah, definitely. I think so. Something that, so I completely agree with that. , those similarities, the thing that strikes me, that's [00:05:00] different between that, like the technology then, and the technology now is. Sort of the level of complexity and the amount that it takes to integrate it. Like something that I noticed about, , 1850s technology, and maybe this is this, this might be like a cognitive bias where it's like a fish in the water sort of thing. But you look at like patents from 1850. And like, you could, you could take that. You could take that patent and you could like build the thing., whereas now. Everything is just, is so complex. And like, literally, if you like, even just like downloading software from get hub and try to get it to run, sometimes doesn't work. and, and so do you, do you think that that comparison breakdown at all there, you know, that's a fair point and that I've struggled with it? So, so there's a sense of what's surely things are much more complex now than they were earlier. , but, but let me offer you. , a sort of a counter example or two, please. So one, if you think about one [00:06:00] complex industry of the time was agricultural machinery, right? Those mechanical devices were complex and people did, , innovative parts of it. , and at some point, you know, the whole system became integrated. You can just sort of bolt on stuff. The second sort of, probably more compelling one is, is, , the railroads, which if you think about as a technical system, we're quite complex. And, , Steve  who's at Georgia tech has written up. He he's a historian of study science. He studied this extensively and I'm persuaded by his work that this was really complex. , but somehow the railroads managed to integrated. While, still relying on independent inventions. So if you think about track switching, these all came from different, different parts of, , you know, different people in different parts of the co , of the country. And, and they didn't really, the railroad companies themselves didn't really have a function whose [00:07:00] job it was to, to, to develop these innovations. This somehow had got managed. Yeah. So, you know, I mean, I find it depending on which side of the bed I wake up, I either agree with you or disagree with you. But yeah, I think the trick with all of this,, that I think is fascinating is that it's so multi causal and so nuanced that it's, it's very, it's tough to say like, okay, like this is. Exactly the same or exactly different., and so I, I think that conversations like this are actually really important for sort of exploring that nuance., actually like just something that I'm wondering about the railroads is, , my, my sense of modern corporations is that they are very hesitant to integrate. External systematic change. Right? So it was like in my, my mental model, if we've had a railroad today and someone came and said like, Oh, I have this, this like, great way to change the way that you do tracks, but you need to [00:08:00] do all your tracks this way. It would never adopt that., is, do you have a sense of whether there was like a cultural difference or a good point? I'm not an expert on this, but again, relying on Steve's work. Steve Musselman's work. There's an interesting case of, , of breaking, you know, when you have a, when you have a locomotive and you've got these, these are these bogeys that are coupled, how do you stop this thing? And so this was a complicated thing and it was, it was a system that had to be installed, , in, in, in all the, all the cars and the railroads were. So, so there's a sense in which they were very open to the system, , and Westinghouse. Was that was the guy who was one of the people who came up with the whole system. There were others who came up with different ways of accomplishing this. And the railroad said, fine. , you know, we'll, we'll take it, but we want to do it. And Westinghouse said, no, no, no, I'll supply you the whole system. And just, you just put it in. And there was a lot of friction around that and, and [00:09:00] eventually Westinghouse prevailed, , thanks in part to his, his patent position. And his willingness to take the railroads on. So,, but to go back to your big question, is there a cultural change? I mean, surely there has to be right. And we were talking about 150 years, right? Yeah. But you know, that, that particular axis. Yeah. I suspect, I suspect that that all particularly since companies now have an autumn D function or an engineering function, that's that, you know, build certain. Builds up such certain sort of preferences or biases or, or views. It would be hard to adopt something wholesale from the outside and give up what you have internally. If you didn't have such an entrance function, it might be easier. But you know, I'm really speculating on this one. Yeah, absolutely. That's, that's what we're here for. The, the, like, this is not, , we're not doing any sort of peer review or anything. and, and so I guess I, another. Big [00:10:00] theme that I was wondering about that you didn't. Like, I feel like you hinted at, but didn't quite touch on in the paper was sort of the nature of the technology in these different areas themselves, like, you know, , late 18 hundreds, you have a lot of sort of mechanical inventions and then sort of giving way to chemistry and then electronics,, and then eventually software. and, and do you, do you have a sense of whether the, the organization of American innovation. Was Al was like, which way does the causality run? Yeah, that's a good point. I mean, so, so, so far I think it is, I think you've got something really important there, which is, it may be that mechanical systems are maybe designed based systems have this kind of a, are different from more integrated systems, like, like a, you know, if you think of. , a modern chemical process, which is highly optimized in many ways, and everything [00:11:00] is, is interacting with each other. So, so the shortly our differences, and you could make the argument that, that sort of the mechanical systems were more amenable to sort of bolt on parks. Right? You take this part out of the, the, the agricultural machinery and you bought a different type of, , part onto it. Yeah., A variant of that, which is an argument that, , again, a historians have made economic historians have made, which is the one difference from, from the mechanical technologies of the late 19th century and the, the chemical and electrical technologies of the early 20th century was the latter of a much more science-based and your independent thinkers, you know, had much less of a, , The opportunities were much, much less fruitful for just the tinkerer, the famous Yankee in January, which, which, you know, was that was irresponsible for, for America's [00:12:00] rise to riches prop, you know, in some sense, had, had, had, had to change and evolve to accommodate the new science based industries. And I think that's probably true. And that may be one reason why. Companies like DuPont had to start doing some of the, the inventing themselves and to, to bring some of this insight there inside the phone. That's certainly, certainly one possibility on the other hand, you know, I'm sorry, this is going to be on the one hand, on the other hand, that's amazing. On the other hand, think about a petroleum refining, which is. We started out as tinkering, but eventually had a very strong science, scientific and engineering base. Yeah., some of the most far reaching and inventions were made by, , independent inventors, but by a guy called interestingly enough, CP dubs and I've read, I can't [00:13:00] verify that C stands for carbon and P stands for petroleum. So the guy's name was carbon petroleum dubs, and he came up with a dubs process. And the, that led to, to the technology that is that's used in pretty much every on refinery that you can think of the, the platin , what's called the platform. Other platinum reforming technology uses a platinum catalyst. So, you know, there was lots of room for independent invention., even in these new science based industries, by the way, dubs was competing with standard oil. Wow. Standardize. It had the song process and this guy that the modern day company, you can look it up. It's called UOP universal oil products build itself as the supplier of technology to the independence, the independency of being the independent oil refining companies, independent of the standard oilbrella. Yeah. Wow. And, and [00:14:00] so yeah, the, the, the relationship between like a science and tinkering is. I feel like there's, they're, they're like the people on the science side and they're the people on the tinkering side. But my, like the hypothesis that I've sort of been coming more and more towards is that it's almost, almost like a cycle where like, everything goes through cycles where it's like very tinkering heavy and then very science heavy. And then maybe back to tinkering heavy,, depending on, on where it is., and so. I think what's, what's interesting to me now. So like let's pull to the present day is that the structure of the American innovation system feels to me at least very geared towards software, right? Like this, the whole started started a software company in your garage. You have like these really cheap startup costs., You know, high, high capital expenditures, low operating [00:15:00] expenditures,, really does seem to lend itself to venture capital, , acquisitions by large companies, sort of this externalized R and D model that you talk about., what I wonder is like, have you looked at how, but at the same time we still do have all of these other industries, right. And. At least to my eye. It feels like they, that model, which is really good for like the call it the like the hot, or like most top of mind industry then gets applied to all the other industries., is that like, does that ring true to you? And like, did that sort of happen in other places as well, where you would see like when corporate labs started rising up. Get the corporate lab started get applied to industries that previously didn't need them. So, so, so let's, let's break this question up into two. One. Is, does the VC model work elsewhere? [00:16:00] It's certainly being was started elsewhere., I think the other place, what it arguably works is is, is biotech, which is a very different kind of sector. Right. Very science heavy. Yeah., Capital-intensive as heck, , at least in terms of sort of paying for, for equipment and reagents and people., and it, I would say on the whole, it works well there as well. So it works with two very different, you know, almost like two extreme sides of the economy. Yeah. I think, and you know, I, I want to be cautious. I think it, it sort of breaks down in the middle. And we have a way of thinking about it that it's, it's speculative at this point. , so, so, so that's the answer to your first question is, you know, yet it works at extreme ends of the spectrum is sort of breaks down in the middle. You know, if you think about materials, technologies, , energy, climate change related stuff, it's, it's difficult. [00:17:00] I mean, we haven't really seen very much coming out of it., and Peter deals sort of famous quote. Oh Quip, you know, we wanted flying cars and we got 140 characters. It is, , it's in a sense, has it has a element of bitter truths there that the system, for whatever reason, hasn't really worked in the middle to go back to the other, you know, how did it work earlier? I suspect we didn't have, you know, professional investors investing other people's money, which is what VCs are for the most part. Right.,, But we did have people who, who backed independent in ventures., you know, if you think about, , I, I spent a long time at Carnegie Mellon in Pittsburgh and Alcoa was a homegrown company and it was, it was funded by, by wealthy individuals today. We will, we might call them angel investors, but really that, that involvement went much farther than, than a typical angel investor would do. And you, there are lots of other examples. Well, you know, the, the [00:18:00] people who backed Tesla, for example, the Nikola Tesla, you know, Westinghouse back, back to him out of personal funds. So, so we, we had, we had people willing to, to, to, to back in independent inventors., you know, obviously things were never quite the same, you know, history never quite repeats itself, but, but yeah, there's certainly, you know, you can see the, you can hear the resonance. Of the past in what we see today. Yeah. I think the, where I'm, I'm interested in, whether you could make sort of a broad sweeping statement that the, and, and I, and I realized that this is like a very, sort of like a big statement, and I'm not asking you to like, endorse her undergoes, but like, what would you say about the, the, the thought that,, the structure of the American innovation system. Sort of follows what's best for the most profitable, [00:19:00] , industry at the time, and then sort of applies itself to all industries regardless of applicability, like at that time. Yeah. You know, so it's, it's, it's, it's, there's an interesting point. I think I would put it in a different way, which is it's certainly the case that. If, if you're interested in, in the VC type model, there are a couple of sectors, you know, the VC is like a particular model and they're willing to go to go for that. The thing that's striking to me about the American system. Has been its diversity and its, you know, the incredible diversity, , and the, , willingness to experiment in many different forms. So even, even within the VC sector, you'll find VCs who are specializing in science-based. , thing, , you know, startups, they're not whether it's showing the, that they're sort of, they're saying we won't follow the heart and just do you know, SAS, or we just do, you [00:20:00] know, B to C companies or platforms or whatever it is. You can find people to back. You pretty much, no matter what you're doing, , maybe not, not enough, , in some sense to meet societal needs. So I would say, in fact, it's the opposite that the American system has been very good in terms of diversity in large measure because of its scale. I mean, America is in some sense, , and this is a tangent, but it is just a giant exception, right? It's a continent, which is one which has had a unified currency, a largely unified set of rules for commerce, , for trade. A common system of law. It's, it's, it's really quite, quite amazing, , what, what we have here. , so for countries who want to emulate America, I always have this caution is that is only one, you know, , , and, and the fact, you know, unlike Yoda, it didn't really have to, to kind of reinvent something from all plot and wait for [00:21:00] 200 years. I mean, I'm overstating it, right? I mean, it's an important point. Right., so, so we have this diversity, there's a sense in which the VCs, you know, a lot of them are chasing the trends as you talk as you, as you say., and perhaps for good reasons. I mean, maybe this was, this was getting us off point, but maybe if you think about it, right, , we're. Work w America is a really rich country. And, you know, it seems odd to say this in, in the situation we're in, but we pretty much solved a lot of the basic problems that signed some technology could solve., you know, if you go back 250, 300 years ago, the big problem was getting enough to eat, fighting off jumps and microbes, and just basically the sheer drudgery of daily living. And for the most part. Again, I don't want to sound, , like, like a, like a nut, but to some, to, to, to a large extent, we've solved [00:22:00] those problems. So if I, if I look, I have teenage kids, I have a, you know, a kid college rising, rising senior, and I look at their lives and their lives are so different from what I grew up in India. And it strikes me that that biggest problem is, is boredom. That we've, we've ultimately reached the stick stage in, in, in, in America where people people's people have to fight the boredom. And you could argue that many of the so-called innovations that the VCs are funding are a solution to that problem, which was the problem. How do, how do, how do you stay off boredom? Yeah, I think now, no, it's my turn to do the on the other head, which is so I, I actually, I completely agree with you about how far we've come and how, how many amazing things we have. And I like don't, , I don't want to understate that. And I think that people do, I think that people are not [00:23:00] grateful for like what, how different it was even a hundred years ago. and yet I think my. My point is, or my hope is that there's so much more to be done. Right like that, that it's not, we're not at some tapering off point. Right. But ideally there's, there's so much more to be done. So ideally not only would we not worry too much about bacterial infections, , but we would also not have to worry as much about viral infections. Right. And instead of going like really the maximum speed limit being, you know, Couple hundred miles per hour on an airplane, it would be, you know, a couple thousand miles per hour on a rocket ship or something. So, yeah. Well look, I, I completely agree with you. I'm, I'm, I'm an optimist and we will find that the, the challenges we're dealing with now, to some extent we've created, right? If you think of the big challenge we face or a big [00:24:00] challenge we face, which is, which is climate change, it's, it's, it's something that essentially is a fruit of our own success. Yeah, that the arts can now support so many more people. It's, it's fundamentally changing the earth itself. Right. All of the fossil fuels that took so to, to build we're we're, we're consuming and we're dumping all the carbon back in the, in the environment. So to CO2 back in the, yeah, that's a tough one. It definitely is. And so I guess actually sort of looking to the future,, you, you touch on this sort of lightly in the paper, cause it's mostly focused on, , the, the history and sort of like how we got to where we are today., where do you see sort of like in your mind, where is the American innovation system? Sort of like less equipped to handle sort of featured things then [00:25:00] maybe it could be. So, so that's, that's a great point. And, you know, we've between my Cortez and me, we've had a, , , , I would say a very spirited debate on both this and therefore what, what might happen., so, , So I'm not going to represent them. I'll represent my views. Oh, okay. Well, if you, if you, if you could like mention their views as well, that would be amazing. Right? So, so, so let's, let's start with sort of, you know, where we might be going. One view is, and th their view is in some ways market forces or the profit motive. Has entered so deeply into the innovation system that it's taking us away from, from pressing important problems to, as I said, you know, for example, solving the problem with bored teenagers. Right? Okay., so this, this is one view I don't disagree with, you know, [00:26:00] when we are in terms of what were the, what big parts of the innovation system are doing, but. The question is, you know, what is it? Is it, is it profit motive or something else? You know? Cause every it's, it's natural to look back at, just roughly say the period between 1930 and up to 1980, what we had these, you know, the DuPonts, the GEs, the Kodaks the IBM of course, the bell labs, Xerox park, you know, one after the other, these companies great companies that did great things,, did one for themselves. What also did get, did great things produce, you know, fantastic, , innovations., you know, there's a sense in which people want to go back and sort of go back to that golden past, , in, in many ways, , really possible. And my view is that's just not going to happen that, you know, Much for whatever it's, it's, it's far, there's a sense in which we're not, I don't think it's possible to go back there. [00:27:00] So this is the system we have for, for better or for worse., which is the, you know, they mentioned the universities, the startups, and then the incumbents. And the question is, , where might we go and what, what might we be able to do with it? I think that this kind of system could be improved., You know, if you look at the current pandemic, , which is an interesting case in point, we find ourselves hopelessly under prepared. And if you look at, for example, the CDC has guidance on what universities should do to, to reopen the CDC does not recommend at this point,, widespread and regular testing, which I find absolutely. Definitely it's absolutely baffling. I do it baffled given that we really don't have any, any, any prophylactic, any way to prevent. If we don't have a vaccine, we're not going to get a vaccine for the next 18 months, no matter who and whatever, you know, on a widespread or wide-scale. Yeah, we [00:28:00] don't have a cure. The only thing we could do is to sort of test and isolate and prevent people. , you know, from, from infecting others and the fact that this wonderful innovation system has left us six months after this, why this was first discovered, why are the CDC is still not prepared to say you should test and test regularly? I suspect it's because our testing capacities, woefully inadequate. That's the only charitable reason I can, I can describe as to why they're doing it. Yeah. But it's, it's, it's, it's a huge, I think we're putting thousands of lives at danger, , because we haven't developed this, this ability to deploy, destined, which uses technologies that by and large exist, right. You're you're using PCR based antibody testing or, or automate [00:29:00] testing, whichever. I, you know, I'm not an expert, but certainly those technologies exist. We know how to do these things. And the fact that the richest country in the world, the technically the most sophisticated country in the world is, is unable to deploy. It tells us something about the innovation system that I think is not flattering for the system. It's, it's failed us in important ways. And I suspect one could make a similar claim as regards climate change. I think the system is failing us., what I think we will have to do is imagine a more constructive role for the government and perhaps, , private philanthropy as well, that can fill in some of the gaps that the cotton system leaves, where we can have more of our minds, the bright, wonderful minds that America produces on that it attracts. Use to S you know, employ to solve what I, at least I consider to be more pressing problems and [00:30:00] more important problems., and, you know, we, we, we could, we could talk about what, what shape those things might take, but at least, you know, at a high level, that would be my answer to your question is I it's, it's, it's a great system. There are some weaknesses that need to be fixed. Yeah, I, I would, I would, would you mind sort of digging into, into those weaknesses? , cause I mean, I have, I have my own opinions on that, but I 100 w yours and I can react to them. Okay, sure. So I think mine actually, , you, you, you illustrate this very well in the paper where you talk about. I believe it was a DuPont. I think it was DuPont, , tried to acquire, they, they bought the patent, , for, I think it was synthetic silk,, yes, Korean and, , they just, they couldn't get it to work. And so they, they eventually needed to actually bring the people in and start doing things in house. And that [00:31:00] was one of the reasons that they started, , Like that, that corporate labs took off was because,, there was, there was like a lot of sort of integration work that needed to be done. And at least in my mind, we've sort of returned to. That weakness now. And so I see at anything that can either, , sort of stand on its own or be very modular and quickly,, become part of a larger thing. , it does well, like th the system does really well for it, but,, technologies that sort of are like improvements to systems or replacements for systems. they, they sort of wither on the vine. Yeah, no, I think that's right. I mean, one way to think about this is that, you know, if you go back to where the VC based system does really well, you see the two opposing ends. If you think about software, I would argue to a first approximation software is mostly about [00:32:00] figuring out what consumers want, will enough people buy it? Do I, can I find them? So if you think, if you see what, what, what a lot of VC money gets spent. It's not in, in solving the technical problems. It's in solving the commercial problems. Yeah. How do I find the market? What is the market? You know, how do I sell it? And, and, and I did those things out, which is why VCs don't care about whether you make money, but they're care. They care about top line growth. Can you acquire the customers? Can you acquire them cheaply enough? So the system is well tailored to that. On the other hand, other end, if you think about the biotech side, The problem that is not do customers want it? Yes. We want a cure for, for, you know, for Colbert. We want a cure for cancer. The big problem is the scientific and technical problems. Can we find something that will do it? And once again, I would argue the VC system for the most part is, is, is well suited or VC system. The startup [00:33:00] based system is well suited to that. Yeah. You have patient capital people willing to put in money where they will not see. The final outcome for another 20 years, people are, you know, are spending money in, in how you could make a human beings immortal and you know, just think, think about, you know, there's no, there's no doubt. There's a market for that. And we also know, we also know who, who, who will want it. Right. I'm in that category. I like living too, right. It's the stuff in between it, where these two things interact and important place where, you know, if you go back to the question of, of, , nylon, let's say our, our rail on the question of what are you going to do with it? So you have a new material, what should it be used for? So did we used to make. Make underwear for women, or should it be used to make parachutes, could it be used to make a billiard balls, which is one of the earliest, , not for nylon, but for something else. [00:34:00] There's a myriad of possible ways so that, you know, you could have many different kinds of markets, many different kinds of consumers, and depending on each, you would have to take this and get to a different price point, have different sort of performance characteristics. And all of those have considerable technical uncertainty. So for example, when nylon first comes in, you can dye it, you can call it it. So it's this really crappy looking, Dell gray kind of material. Well, who would want to buy stuff? You know, clothes may not have that if you could only buy gray, so you have to solve the problem of, okay, how do I diet? But that depends on what you use it for. If you go to make it to use rope, you don't cash, right? Right. So it's when these two things need to interact in important ways and that are important, you know, funding decisions that have to make, should I invest in, in changing the performance characteristics of this material? Well, that depends on what market I'm going after. Well, which market should I go after? [00:35:00] That's when I think the system does much, you know, it's not clear at all, , that the system is, is, is weak and it, I would argue. , the, the integrated system would work much better. Yeah. That's really insightful. , I hadn't, I, I hadn't put those pieces together before. and that, that sounds really correct., and so do you have any thoughts about,, How instead of like, I guess without saying like, Oh, let's just make corporate labs again. , do you, do you have a sense of what steps we could take from where we are now towards, , a system that supported those kinds of innovations? Yeah. So I would say that they're probably one just to come back to, , the question of, of the role of government. One another place where the current system works breaks down is when you [00:36:00] have what economists call externalities. Whereas, you know, it's hard to capture all the benefits that you're producing and some cases, those benefits could be, could be quite significant. The government is already involved in one sector in a big way that solves this, which is a university sector. We we're now, you know, , , the university sector just would not survive. Without the NIH and the NSF funding and the other source of the funding over the last two decades, maybe three, I certainly three decades. I think that the system has the government system has become more short term. I think they're willing to take fewer bets, , perhaps for good reasons. , but, but I think. If you think about many of the things that, that we got many of the breakthroughs we got, certainly after following world war II, the government not only subsidize some of the upstream [00:37:00] research, they were happy to support the training of students and they were happy to, to buy the things that came out at the backend. what's. Interesting. So let's go back to covert. One of the things that would have been very useful is for the government have also announced early on that they would, they would be ready to buy, you know, 250 million units of vaccines for the next so many years. I couldn't agree more. And if he has to write and test and forget, government buying government is actively hindering. The use of, of tests, right? They won't allow people to do tests. The FDA has become such a force, , such a destructive force and disrespect, I would say, , it's it's, it's, I'm, I'm shocked and saddened by, by how, at least in this particular case, the FDA has behaved., so, so, so the, but just not to get too [00:38:00] far off on my pet hobby horse right now is. So the government, I think we need to find a way where, where the government can, can not only solve some of the upstream, scientific uncertainty, commercial, you know, technical uncertainty part, which they're currently doing through funding research and so on, but maybe also try to do something at the, at the backend where they stand ready to, to procure or to, to, to be important customers for, or somehow. Help mitigate some of the commercial uncertainty through the procurement. So I'm, , I feel like very torn on this subject because so, , to, to expose my biases, like I, I'm a big fan of markets. And so,, I'm very, I buy the arguments that, , government is not. Well, especially when, when it's, they're not buying something for themselves, they're not, they [00:39:00] will always make the best choice about what to buy. But at the same time, I, I find the argument you just made compelling., do you have any sense of like how to, to balance those two? Yeah, I think it's a good point. So, I mean, The government as, as the user, as a lead customer, for many of the technologies and electronics computing, et cetera, kind of makes sense because I don't know if they bumped the best ones, but they certainly bought a lot of them. And it was justified by, you know, by the, by the space race, you know, the Sputnik and then the core war that followed. And in some sense, even if you bought the wrong things as the government. In those days, you could console yourself by saying, well, at least we trained a whole bunch of PhDs and engineers. , and so we, we got something in the body game, right? We, we developed a capacity. We developed a way to test these systems. So [00:40:00] I'm, my biases are the same as yours. I am generally having grown up in India. I'm very suspicious of government. , You know, actively interfering in the marketplace because usually no good comes out of that. Yeah., but at the same time, it's hard not to look at the, the current crisis we have and say, well, here's one thing that, you know what, I would have supported some sort of government intervention, both on the front end, in helping develop the knowledge that we need to develop the vaccines and the tests. But also to S to, to at least backstop some of the commercial risk. Yeah., without it, nobody will make investments. There was a very nice article that I read about the, either the Ebola or the SARS epidemic, where some people made significant investments in, in scaling up capacity for, for vaccines and or for PPE. And then we're left, hanging. Because if the government doesn't, doesn't intervene [00:41:00] actively to buy some, you know, to provide some significant quantity of demand is just not viable. People. People are not going to pay for tests for themselves, or at least the right people will not pay for tests for themselves. They will pay for tests when they think they're sick. You want the test when they don't think they're sick. Exactly. And most people won't pay for that. You do need, this is a classic case where you do need the government to come in and say, well, we'll pay for it. And within in India, for example, smallpox are more or less wiped out because the government subsidized not only the acquisition of the vaccines, but also the large scale deployment. Yeah, we also need government to help perhaps deploy this, but given our fragmented insurance and medical delivery system, we need, we need a lot of help both on the regulatory side and on the dollar side to help that. And so while I share your biases, I think there are definitely cases where [00:42:00] we need the government to be more thoughtful and more, more progressive. Yeah, I think that the tricky thing, so I agree and I think. The tricky thing that I, I don't know how to do is how to decide like where, where where's the line., and that's, I think beyond, beyond the scope of this, but, , it's, it's an interesting, , question that I don't think that we have a good conversation about yeah. I mean, w w a different way to do it is we don't have to draw the line, , which we can do it on a, on a, as is basis. Right? I mean, part of the thing that I asked. Over time. I've come to the view that we want to have principles, policies, or principle ways of, of, of, of approaching these kinds of decisions, which is fine. And it's a, it's a, it's an instinct and an impulse that I understand, but sometimes that stands in the way, so, so we can draw the line. Fine. Yeah. [00:43:00] It's okay. Let's do it here. Then when the next one comes along, we can figure out whether the government should do something like this or not, or whether the government and the reality is the government does get involved. Right. I mean, yeah. So all the nice lines we draw don't seem to stop anything in any case. Yeah. And actually speaking of bare, mid and shifting a little bit, I, you, you sort of outline., the antitrust trends over time. And,, like in, in the paper, , you make the argument that antitrust was pressure to, for corporations to do more internal research so that they could expand markets. and there's examples. Both of this., but then at the same time, there are also examples of, , sort of the, the technology. Like another reason why people have really liked corporate labs is because [00:44:00] technology also like escapes them, right? Like you see, , the transistor coming out of bell labs and, and to my understanding, they government antitrust also. Sometimes would prevent, , big companies from going into new markets, even if they were to invent things. So,, can you, can you sort of like walk me through, , your, your argument of. The value of trust. Yeah. So that's a really good point and I should have, I should have thought about that. Thank you for reminding me. here's a, here's an interesting piece. Just going back to DuPont in 1911, DuPont had a monopoly on smokeless powder. They were the monopoly suppliers of smokeless powder to the us Navy in 1911 in a famous antitrust case. The government went in and broke up DuPont into three parts. So there was DuPont Hercules and Atlas three companies to, to provide, , to provide smokeless powder. And this is quite remarkable. If you think about right, they took a dominant one form that was doing well. And they said, you know, we're going to break you up [00:45:00] into three producers. Now, those Atlas soon March with Hercules, I believe. And then Hercules' remained as an independent company for many years in similar spaces to DuPont and they had reasonably friendly relationships. But I think that episode was a singular episode for DuPont because they understood that that ability to grow was going to be constraint that they could not do what companies do now, which is just buy up competitors and, you know, look at T-Mobile and sprint. Right. I mean, it's, we've gone from four to three and I'm not an antitrust experts. I don't understand these things, but there's a sense in which. If growth is, is an imperative for companies. And if they're going to be constrained from growing, by buying up, , you know, by expanding by, by, through, through, through sort of what we call inorganic acquisitions, there's a sense in which, , they will [00:46:00] have to find new products and these new products could come from startups. Although there's an antitrust scrutiny there as well. , but it's much easier if they come internally. And that's essentially how DuPont went from being a producer of large, largely undifferentiated chemical products, like explosives and fertilizers into new materials. And they eventually went almost all the way into getting into textiles and then they stopped and they, you know, when they got into nylon and polyester, they said, how far do we go? Do we want to be producing our own cloth? And they said, no, no, no. We want to stop here. We're going to demand an industrial company. , ATMT while they could not get into merchant semiconductors, they use semiconductors internally. It was very important for them that they needed those to solve their own internal problems and to grow the telephony business. Yeah. Did, did they,, produce, did they make their own semiconductors or did they purchase them from, [00:47:00] I believe. Hi, I'd been interested. I believe they did for, for quite some time and an IBM similarly. Right. I don't think they were a merchant supplier of semiconductors to others, but they've certainly produced any conductors for themselves. Yeah. And so this is going to be a naive question, but like, why, so, I mean, I would like, I guess the question is like, why doesn't Bowie, why don't we see a lot of amazing research coming out of Bowie? Because I sort of think of them as. Basically a monopoly on, I mean, it's like, there's like Boeing and Airbus and they're the only, , companies that can produce like giant airplane, like giant complex airplanes. so if, , the, if like the monopoly profits are what enables like longterm thinking and,, really great corporate labs, like why, why doesn't Boeing have an amazing corporate lab? That's a great point., I don't know, but remember boy was allowed to buy McDonald Douglas,, [00:48:00] and, and words was not stopped there. And really, , that, I don't know. I don't know the answer, but I think, I think part of it is at some, they, they never either never developed the capability to do this kind of fundamental research. Are, or they do. And somehow it's all tied up in various kinds of government contracts that we don't see, you know, because they had a large government contractor as well. And maybe the government is not demanding from them. The same sorts of innovative products that it might have demanded of its contractors in an earlier era. Yeah. So, but it's a, it's a great question, Ben. I don't know. I never thought about it. Like why don't they have,, a large corporate lab? No. Remember one reason we will never go back to these large corporate labs is because they are incredibly difficult to manage insight, a publicly traded company. Yeah. And this was the big [00:49:00] point of disagreement between my, my, my coauthors and me. My view is research inside of a large public company is always a strange animal. It's always a strange animal., and the only way it's happened is if, if corporate headquarters protects it and nurtures it as the shiny example, here is Microsoft. Microsoft is, had set up under bill Gates, , and more of a world of fantastic research lab, which, you know, they, they nurtured, but, and this is a big part. If, if you ask yourself, what did Microsoft shareholders get out of that lab? That, that would be an interesting quality. I don't know that it's been systematically studied. Yeah. But looking at it from the outside, if you look at what Gates as successors have done, I think I'm going to get in trouble for saying [00:50:00] this, but I think. What we are now seeing since probably 2015, 2016 is the beginning of the end of Microsoft research. Wow. That's and I say this because you're that the person was heading, Microsoft research was replaced by two people. Oh yeah. And part of that was, was taken away. And part of what was, was moved into sort of more applied. so. You know, I that's, why both, I think we'd never go back to the corporate labs, , in a, in a serious way. Yeah. Because it's incredibly hard to manage and it's incredibly hard to justify, you know, the billion dollar, roughly expense that Microsoft research, you know, cost Microsoft. If you think about huge, huge public good. , but it's, it's, it's no longer justified given that Microsoft now faces significant competition. Yeah. In terms of growth goes back to the externalities piece [00:51:00] again. Yeah. So there's certainly large externalities., you know, if you think about IBM when IBM had to take a potential crisis or even a little bit before that IBM's Watson research lab, essentially God reoriented and pushed more and more into being managed by the individual divisions and the businesses inside. IBM. And those divisions have quarterly reporting responsibilities, right? You have to justify the capital that you get from, from, from the parent corporation. And it's really hard to say what something you've, you know, investing in now may or may not work. If it works. We might see the results in six years, you know, in terms of the technical and scientific findings and the commercial benefits might be even further down the line. It's, it's hard to manage that. I, I don't blame it on, on. On on short term as though I don't believe that argument, but I certainly do think that it's this, this kind of bundling between a main activity of a corporation, let's say [00:52:00] IBM, which is to sell computers, to produce, and then to do all this other cool research, which could be relevant, but perhaps not. But, you know, perhaps someday it's really hard to manage and do that. And I think this is the relentless logic of, of. You know, golf capitalism is we have to unbundle things. We have to specialize. So they go back to, to kind of Smith and say, and as I said, this was the point of contention between the research team that's working on this problem. So you're just hearing one side of it. They think I'm,, I'm overtaking the customer so to speak. I, well, I mean, I certainly buy your argument, so. I forgot what that's worth., I'll, I'll tell them, , so the last thing I always like to ask guests is,, what is something that people are not thinking enough about that they, they should be thinking more about? That's a tough one, [00:53:00] not very imaginative sort of guy.,, I would, I would disagree, but, well,, Okay. No, I don't think I can give a, give a clever enough to justify the advertisements. That's that's fair. That's fair. Well,, I really appreciate you doing this. , this is,, and I really appreciate you being willing to, to sort of like, Almost like play with these ideas., I think that, that people don't do that enough. And,, I, my, my hope is that by I sort of playing with them, , we can, we can figure out new ways to make awesome things happen. I really hope that, you know, I would really like to learn because none of these ideas are set in stone and it's. I, I thank you for the opportunity to talk to you. And I hope we'll, we'll, we'll learn some more and people will, will come up with, with new and better ways of thinking about this problem. [00:54:00]   [00:55:00]      

Finally a wholesome podcast about family-video-games. Games that feature WHIPS, CHAINS, AND THE MAYOR FIGHTING IN THE STREETS! You know, for kids! This week Rob and Pernell look at the roots of this bare-knuckled genre and follow its evolution to where it is today. What made early beat'em-ups so much fun to kids? What is keeping them relevant today? Who composed the theme song to Perfect Strangers and how are these things related? They may not be. Right? Okay now I'm just talking to myself. My therapist said I should really stop doing that.

Please lets us continue to focus on things that gives us JOY! With that in mind, If you need anything done well and right, the blue print is in our purpose in life. We need to find that! Please focus on things that gives you strength. Today, I bring you my views on work and life balanced scale for personal satisfaction. This topic is very crucial for all of us. Somethings need to be in order. As humans, we need to arrange our life and work balance to have a fulfilled life to some extent. We are not expecting perfection. But you don,t need to feel empty, confused or just exist. What is life and work balance scale? This means the time an individual have to arrange their priorities between work and other interests in life. The way you can do this successfully in my view is not to arrange what is in your schedule, but schedule your priorities Right OKAY!

Brandon Dyson returns with a two part series on Residency Interview Questions. He is the founder of  www.tldrpharmacy.com - which provides cheat sheets and easy to understand overviews of dense clinical topics. He is a clinical pharmacist for an academic medical center in Austin, Texas and an Assistant Professor of pharmacology for the online nurse practitioner program at the Georgetown University School of Nursing. He graduated from Howard University College of Pharmacy and completed a PGY1 practice residency at Georgetown University Hospital in Washington, DC. He is board certified in pharmacotherapy. He can be reached at brandon@tldrpharmacy.com In this show we first talk about the dos and don'ts of the pharmacy interview, then in Part II it's game on for a mock interview. Will he get the residency? Okay, okay, he got a residency at Georgetown, so he's qualified.  He’ll trade you one email address on his website for an: Antibiotic Cheat Sheet Residency/Job Interview Evaluation Form Chapter 1 of the book, Pharmacy School: The Missing Manual Full Transcript: I'm so excited to have Brandon Dyson back to help us out and we're going to have a back-and-forth as if I was the residency director or interviewer and he'll be the interviewee. But he's not only going to just talk about the answers he's going to give the rationale for them. And a number of these questions come from his book but I've thrown him a couple of curveballs and I know you're going to enjoy this episode. Let's get into some questions because I'm excited to see how you tackle them and so let's actually start with a softball. I call it a softball. Softballs on the preface, right? I have no idea which questions he's going to ask me and I did not prepare answers which you should prepare. Let me also say that. So, anyway yeah, let's do this. Okay describe a time when you decided on your own that something needed to be done and you took on the task to get it done. So this is all about so what I'll do when I enter these if you're cool with that Tony and I will kind of give you an example answer if I was a student and then I'll kind of describe my thought process in that answer, is that okay? Yeah, check the podcast manual. Its okay, so we're good, we're good. I'm not going to violate the podcast rules but I was checking the podcast scroll, it's very old. Podcast scroll is very, you're really pulling it off in how the podcast looks. Yeah okay, so at a time when you decided on your own, now, before you answer the question let's say I'm someone that's anxious freaking out borderline ATD, as this person's asking the question. Is it appropriate to write the question down as they're asking it? You're probably not going to have a piece of paper. Like at this point for most of these interview quite. Because this might be happening literally while you're eating lunch maybe not this severe but it's not inappropriate to write it down. But it's not it's, you probably won't need to probably what will be better is if you need to think of an answer. Reflect it? You can reflect it you can be like so a time when I, you know. Yeah, yeah. Like rephrase it a little. You can also say, let me think about that for a moment. Do not spend four minutes at that point. It's just going to be weird but take a moment, you know, and think about it and again most of these questions. You know, unless they're just trying to have fun with you like I kind of asked, if you were a melon what type of melon would you like they're just trying to mess with you at that point in time. And then you're thinking, oh gosh was that a fruit, a vegetable, a melon. Was that a melon? What does it mean if I want to say cantaloupe? And they're sitting there doing their quiz online like, oh, this is a, it is a melon. It's a melon. At that point they're seeing like questions like that, they're like do you have a sense of humor and like how do you roll with it, you know, if we mess with you a little. Like anyway and I've used a great tactic of stalling in this question. You have? Okay. So obviously not getting the thing done I'm asking you which is just answer the freaking first question but describe a time you decided on your own that something needed to be done and you took on the task to get it done. So I, this happened at, I was interning for Walgreens and I noticed that we had a lot. There was a big order that got put away they were very busy backed up and I was an intern and my technical job at this particular at least on this shift I was supposed to be manning the registers and doing flu shots. But it just, you know, someone called out and, you know, we were very backed up, very busy. The pharmacist was having a hard time keeping up with filling and so I was able to go in and kind of very in between and I never I made sure to keep an eye on the register and with flu shots and everything and I helped put away the order and helped fill meds and I just, it was just really doing everything I could to kind of keep the flow going. So that was Brandon's, you know, sort of somewhat, you know, answer. So thought process going into that answer would be, you want to you want to showcase that you take initiative. You see something that needs to get done for whatever it is it doesn't need to be for, you know, that didn't actually happen in my Walgreens experience I was completely made up on the spot but the idea is like are you self-motivated, do you need to be told, do you need to have your boss or your manager be like, okay, go do this thing, you finish that thing great go do this thing. You want to write it, you want to come up with an answer that shows you just taking initiative that you're self motivated self-starter and if you notice a thing, you know, whether that be hey, I didn't realize like on this oncology rotation what our chop was and so I went and looked up our chop and what kind of cancer it was treated for because I saw in the medical note that the patient received three cycles of our chop so far, you know, like you did you go and look up what that was and what it was for versus like then, versus instead of asking me, your preceptor hey, you got our chop what's our chop, right? Like it's looking for, do you take initiative basically? I don’t know if they have highlight still in the dentist office but there used to be a goofus and gallant and like goofus, when, you know, goofus sits and doesn't answer the door gallant gets up and answers the door. And really if you can instead of, you know, saying oh my gosh, I've got to come up with this really great scenario all you have to do is just say, you know, I saw somebody had gum on their shoe I told them they had gum on their shoe, I helped them throw it away, you know. It's like just, you know, it's just, it sounds like it's common sense but I can I feel like the kind of a-plus type student is going to try to make a huge deal out of something that's just, are you going to do things that you're supposed to do. A word of caution too is make sure that you don't come across as standoff-ish. Like well this other person wasn't doing their job and it felt like I need it to get done so I did it, you know, because that really like that takes the shift of you being self-motivated leader and you complaining and just throwing shade on other people and that's not, you know, don't do that. So be very careful how you phrase it. Okay, all right. Well, let's go to another question I think that that format is going to work really well. Let's talk about a difficult work school situation when your workload was heavy and how you handled it. So let's say that in your in your CV you have a 16 hour a week job at the hospital while you were a p3 because you had to support yourself for the most part to go through school and you weren't given a tremendous amount of scholarship money and so 16 hours a week is how much you had to work. Okay, so I mean this is an easy one for anyone on pharmacy school especially if you're working. So I was working, I had to do the, I had signed up for 16 hours a week so that was my whole weekend. I work two eight-hour shifts or sometimes I would be off on Sunday and I would work two four-hour shifts on my evenings during the week to 8 and 8 and I'd work a Saturday. If this happened a particular week where I had to work Tuesday and Thursday night from 4 p.m. to 8 p.m. and I had exams on Wednesday and I had exams on Thursday. So I had I had exams both days, these were really hard PT exams, you know, really difficult subject matter and so I, you know, I have to study. But I've also made a commitment to the hospital not only do I need the money but I made a commitment. I signed up to do it, no one, you know, and so what I had to do was really try to, you know, in the hospital I work in a level 1 trauma center as an intern so we're very very busy we're always stocking omni-cells or, you know, that's what I was doing this particular week. And it was just a particularly it was a completely full patient loaded and so really the way I had to prioritize it was I had to just be, I had what I mapped out my week basically. So I said, okay, here are my hours, here's the things that I need to get done. I need to study, you know, I estimated based off of what I've had in school so far how long I need to study for a given exam. And then I blocked out responsibilities where I couldn't study so I can't study at Tuesday to Thursday 4 to 8 those are out. I can't study, you know, this other time because I'm eating or I'm sleeping or whatever and then the rest was fitting in times that I could study, you know, I was in class these times, I can't study. But what I could do I woke up a little bit earlier nothing crazy but I woke up at 5:00 a.m. and I studied for an hour or two before school. I studied for a little bit before bed I had recorded my professor's lectures and I listened to them during my commute to try to absorb more. I read TL DRpharmacy.com they had this, I had to. So your answer I guess here, you know, just is that you can make priorities, right? You can prioritize what's most important. You might get, if you don't even have to balance work and school on this kind of a question. You can just say from work well I was, you know, let's go back to what I just said for the last answer. I was an intern at Walgreens there was a tote of things that needed to be put away. There was patients, you know, asking to pick up their prescriptions here, the drive-thru was ringing and I needed to go to the bathroom which order did I do those things in, right? Like your answer needs to prioritize the patient first 100%, right? So you get to get the counter then the drive-thru. First you tell the drive-thru guy to hold on, right? There's not necessarily a correct way to answer it. But it just shows that you prioritize what's most important and delegate, you know, if you're unable to finish your task whatever it is at the hospital for example, that you pass it on to the next shift or to, you know, or to yourself tomorrow if like oh, I didn't study enough today so can I study, I have to study extra time tomorrow. And it sounds like. Yeah. It sounds like you're talking what you did that was a little surprising and then what impressed me was that you actually went backwards in time. So I feel like most people trying to answer that question would be at the problem and say, okay, well there was a problem and how did I deal with it? Instead of saying well there's a problem and I had that really tough time but what I learned was that there was gaps in my planning so the next time that actually didn't happen because I planned out my week. So I feel like you're going back in time was a really clever way to solve that to say, I knew this was going to happen, things don't happen to me intentionally or things don't happen that way. It's, you know, so you're giving them the impression like, okay well that might happen one time to you and it was bad but it's not going to be as bad next time because you adjust to problems. Yeah you learn from past experience, learn from mistakes. Okay. If you can showcase that with your answers, awesome. Okay, well let's talk pharmacy specific, so questions on pharmacy topics. This is and I feel like you could go with the well I wasn't really sure about the job market so residency is my background. So I'm really kind of hoping that you take me because I really didn't plan on not getting accepted. So we're really hoping this works out. But I think that, you know, in terms of I'll just ask the question, but in terms of just kind of broad picking up what's going on in pharmacy, where do you recommend someone pick up or keep up with pharmacy, you know, you can read that okay, Amazon's coming, Amazon's not coming, you know, do you have to be up on the Affordable Care Act, you know, did you read the thousand pages, you know, how up on what's going on in pharmacy do you need to be before you can even answer a question like that? I think, if you just are up enough on the headlines so that you can have a reasonably intelligent conversation you do not have to be like, oh yeah, well Amazon's got this 12-point strategy for, you know. Right. Entering into the, you know, like or your answer could be bow down before the Amazon ship and just accept but they will employ us all soon but. Right or Alexa will be giving, Alexa's like, I've been answering your questions long enough it's your turn. So a question like that about like where do you see the field of pharmacy going or whatever, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. Like it's really designed like are you interested in the profession, like it's that's really what it is. It's not like testing you, your current event knowledge or you're a student you're studying a trillion hours a week, right? It's just, are you in? Because if you're interested you'll just, you'll pick up on stuff like this, you know, and it's just, it's a casual question honestly like kind of looking at do you pay outside, pay attention to that bubble outside of what you need to know as a student for the next exam. You know, and kind of look at the trends for the profession as a whole and then are you thoughtful about it, you know, how do you insert yourself and how do you plan, you know, is residency a part of your strategy for that or what's your endgame, you know. Okay, well this one this next one's going to be a trap I just read the first line and I know exactly how you can go wrong on this one. So what was your favorite Eppy and Appy rotation and why, what was your least favorite Eppy and Appy rotations and why? This has trap written all over it. Yeah, you have walked directly. Okay, so my favorite Eppy rotation was infectious disease for a few reasons, a large part of it. I absolutely loved the preceptor. She was fantastic. She was very, you know, gave me autonomy while at the same time providing, you know, exactly like perfect real-world instruction. She was very, she let me do a lot, she let me interview patients, she let me interview physicians and round with the team. And I just, I felt like I really grew a lot and in an area that really interested me and I learned, you know, what kind of like if I were to ever be a teacher or a preceptor I would want to be like her and I really really grew to love the area of infectious disease. My least favorite rotation was I had a trend, I had rotation with the transplant team. A solid organ transplant, very very busy and it just, I guess what I disliked it, like the area has never particularly interested me that was part of it. The team was very large, there were three nurse practitioners. There was literally a half a dozen resident plus and attending, you know, there was my pre, there was two pharmacy preceptors that were there on it. Like so it was this giant team walking around the sick unit and then walking around the medicine unit, afterwards seeing patients and, you know, honestly though I think where, why it was, you know, I would have done a lot differently with that rotation. So it was my least favorite but I think on that I didn't step up enough. I felt very timid as a student. I had no idea even what tackle line this is, what problems this is they, you know, and how do I adjust a dose for someone that's two-month post transplant, you know, that has now come in with C and B infection, you know, like I had no idea what to do with the multitude. Now they've got tuberculosis and they started ripe therapy, you know, I and honestly I felt like I didn't ask enough questions. I was too timid and I was so focused on hey, these, this is a transplant patient that I would forget entirely that I knew how to manage their blood sugar that was too high and I knew that, you know, their blood pressure that was too high. So I would have like, I really it was my least favorite rotation for the challenge but I also learned a lot about how I can approach other rotations in it. So what I'm going for there the trap that you want to avoid is your least favorite obviously where you just talk nothing but smack about this piece and then this team that you had. Even if you feel like it's warranted it doesn't matter now is not the time, you know. Pharmacy is small. There's chance that the person that you slam, it's like, oh yeah, I know them we're buddies, we hang out at ASHP when we meet up together. We graduated together, you know. Yeah. So, you just, you want to be careful with that. Really you're taking a negative experience with your least-favorite you want to turn that as much into a positive as possible. What did you learn from it? So, just kind of like that last question. You had this terrible experience, cool. Why was it that terrible? And more importantly like, what did you get out of it? Well I guess what I was impressed with is that what you didn't do was say, well I didn't really have any ones that I didn't like. Yeah. Can you do that? Can you, can you pull that one or are they, because I feel like the way that, you know, when I was around residency I, we all got along really well and I feel like if all of us were there watching you we'd be sitting there with our thumbs going down like, boo boo, you know, boo. Popcorn, tomatoes, yeah. So. I don't like doing it. I don't, I'm not a fan of it. If you do it, have a good reason why and still talk about, you know, I, you can or hedge, hedge if you need to. So like, oh I really liked all of them I guess a challenge, you know, one that I found particularly challenging and that I think I grew a lot from and it was really difficult in the time which was very stressful. You can like, kind of soften it or hedge it that way if you feel like you have to like, you have to get some lesson. It's a complete and total cop-out to be like, I don't have any clue, next question. Okay, but I can see how someone might not. I just talked at Tola Adebanjo from UMES and she had the Hopkins residency training one, she had APHA and then she was at the VA near her own where she could spend time with their family. So there was these three great rotations that are warm hugs and, you know, to say least favorite it would it would have to be well this was maybe in the least favorite part of us right in one of the rotations but yeah never to say no. Now did I, I did ask you two questions in pharmacy so, let's see about your professional growth. So how would you categorize a PGY-1 residency as another learning experience or as the beginnings of a career path or job and why? So, both, honestly both, I see it as both, you know, it's been kind of said to me throughout school that a residency is equivalent of about three years of clinical experience. I've talked to plenty of my peers who've gone through residencies and have an idea of what to expect and I know it's a very very challenging year. But that there's a lot of growth, there's a lot of learning involved, there's, you know, as accelerated of a growth year as I think you can have in the field of pharmacy. So it's absolutely a learning experience but at the same time I'm a licensed pharmacist in a residency and I'm, you know, there's a staffing component to this residency. I'm the pharmacist making the call, one of this treatment appropriate or not and, you know, I'm going on rounds with the team and, you know, maybe the first day or first couple of days of the new rotation or even the first week early on my preceptor may round with me. But they're going to stop rounding with me based off what I've heard from my friends that have gone through residency anyway. And it's on me to be the pharmacist for the team at that point in time. So it really is the beginnings of a career path and me personally I want to kind of transition this into a PGY-2 and infectious disease and so this is, you know, a necessary step for that. I can't get a PGY-2 without a PGY-1 obviously so I really see this as both. Now you didn't do a PGY-2 but go ahead and explain your answer. Yeah, yeah I did not. So again I'm making these up on the spot so I've just explained, what I'm saying with this is, one, yes your residency is absolutely a learning year but I think the meat behind this question is are you ready to take the jump from student to pharmacist. And I'm just speaking completely plainly, it took me almost my entire PGY-1 to really get that. Like I should probably, that was like my hero struggle throughout my PGY-1 was branded really, finally ready to be a big boy now, you know. And the hero's journey for those of you that don't know is it's what Luke Skywalker did basically. Something tragic happens, he meets conflict, he goes on a journey, he learned something from it. I don't know if meeting your father is part of it but there's a pact to the hero's journey and it involves that conflict and so forth but did you have anything else to add after that? No that's primarily it. Just see a question like this, make sure that you understand that even though a residency is a learning experience, it's a job. You're interviewing for an actual job, you will be receiving an actual paycheck, they are hiring you to do X Y & Z and you are absolutely going to be a licensed pharmacist as contingent on your residency. So you do have to see it as the beginning of a career path as well. I think in the book I probably say something like I answer this with yes and yes I think it's my, like let me cheat and look yeah, I did. So I said I answered this with yes and yes. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, well let's ask a softball question that actually can be incredibly difficult. So you told us you're not interested in a PGY-2. What's your one-year goal then? Where you come in in July, you leave in July or you leave at the end of June? Where do you see yourself? My idea with this, with the PG, with my one year goal, so I don't want to do it PGY-2. What we all did PGY-2s. Yeah, no so, I mean and maybe I'm open to it, I'm open to changing my mind. I want to, what I want to set myself up for is flexibility more than anything. I want to, to me if I learn the skills that's what I will get out of one year of residency training is, you know, I'm going to go on an ID rotation, I'm going to go on a transplant, on an oncology rotation. I'm going to have a practice management rotation. I'm going to be inserted in and be expected to perform at the pharmacist at a high level for all of these things. And what I think I'm really going to get out of that is the ability to pick up basically anything. So that if my career takes me into such a path that an oncology specialist position opens up even if I haven't done a PGY-2 or maybe not a specialist but a position in oncology or a position in transplant or maybe my family decides they have to move. And, you know, I have the skills necessary to transition what I've learned, to learn as a pharmacist, to learn on the job, to contribute and to be a team player and to get to help contribute where, you know, anywhere that my career takes me. It gives me the flexibility to apply my skills and be a valued pharmacist to actually add value to the, wherever I'm working. That's what I want to get out of one year out of this. Awesome, okay, well let's transition to the last section which is personality related questions and I'm going to adjust it a little bit just to kind of make it a little bit more of a softball or maybe just make it a little more authentic but. So I'm a marathoner even though I'm arrested right now I'm still getting my runs in. I get a long two-hour run or three-hour run there on Sunday. What is it that you like to do outside of the pharmacy? What do you do for fun? So I, a few things, I am very active in a church group and so we do a lot of youth mentoring where, you know, obviously every Sunday but we do stuff throughout the week as well. We'll have, you know, it's with a youth group of, they're primarily between 12 and 14 years old, 12 and 15 and we'll, I mean anything we'll go to the local basketball court, you know, we'll organize a basketball game or we'll have, you know, a punch party or something, you know. So we do things like that. I'm also a pretty avid guitar player. I played guitar since I was 13. I've, I don't play in a band specifically right now but I played in bands all through high school. Yeah, I'll play in odd wedding or so for a friend here, there. So I really enjoy playing guitar blues, rock, country, really anything. I just, I love the instrument and the flexibility and the voice of it. So I like to spend a lot of free time there and that's sort of my wind down as, you know, a few minutes on a guitar can really just kind of reset my calm, you know, at the end of the night. Yeah, Churchill used to paint, you know. Yeah, yeah. And he's dealing with world war two and he's off painting. And you're like, painting and just you know if you have that kind of stress you really do need a place where you do something completely different and don't underestimate the opportunity to connect with someone there that has that same thing and, you know, for the eight hours you have someone else might remember, oh yeah that was the runner, oh yeah that was the one with and they're really trying to make it so that they can remember you and the one thing besides some kind of mistake maybe you made or, you know, oh ketchup on the collar or whatever it is. But this is the one time that if you are authentic that you're probably going to find someone else that that has something similar in there and they're going to remember you because of it. So let's go completely vague on the final question here. List some personal attributes that you would like to improve and what have you done to improve them? So what's wrong with you? I am flawless. So don't use that answer. Oh that's a flaw, isn’t that what Socrates said? Yeah, you're brilliant, damn, real philosophical tonight. So, a few things, it's a blessing and a curse. I see things from a 10,000 foot view, you know, and I always have. I see the big picture I see how it all works together and how it all fits and that is a wonderful thing for men, you know, for studying for pharmacy school. That's what got me here to this interview. It's done a lot of great things for me at the same time you, when you see from 10,000 feet you sometimes miss a really important detail and so while I won't, I don't necessarily get mired down in details all the time and get overwhelmed with, you know, I can see where the system has to move and I know how to prioritize. I might miss that, you know, this happened a couple of times on a pharmacy test where I missed, you know, which of the following is not indicated or something, you know, I missed all that. Circle the dot. Yeah, I missed that all-important word and you know it's the devil is in the details. So what I do and it's just like you said, I take that pause, you know, I pause for a minute and I briefly review before doing, you know, before I answer the test question. I do, you know, and I make sure, okay here's what it says, there is no polarity word that changes it for not to or except or anything and then I answer. And so really I, the way I do it I had to physically train myself to take a breath before either circling the scantron or some of our tests are on a computer now before I hit the submit button I literally take a breath, it takes one second. And it's, that's my reset to make sure I don't just go down some memorized neuro pathway and just click the button or circle the dot. Okay so we've gone through your document the one thing I wanted to talk about and then this is going to also segway into probably what our next conversation is going to be in. I may even chop this one in half because we've gone over an hour and I'll probably I'll release them both in the same day not to be like, okay well let's get, you know, downloads on this day and this day. But just so that I feel like they'll listen to the first part of it one time and then the second part more than one time. But this is the question that although when I read that document we talked about it they said that the College of Pharmacy you went to is very irrelevant. You know, they're picking you on other issues so where you are on US News and World Report is quite irrelevant. However, Naplex scores have gone down quite a bit and I didn't realize this until just a couple days ago. I'd never actually bothered to look at it but the, and I've got the acronym right now MPJE, the Multi-State Pharmacy Jurisprudence Exam. Scores are all over the place and I feel like because residencies are all over the place, when going from one state to another it's harder to unlearn something than it necessarily would have been just to learn it if you'd never been, you know, tainted with your whole mistake. So how do you instill confidence in this group because I think they're going to use the pickaway soon that pharmacy curricular outcomes assessment to give a score to you as you're going through school and that'll happen the next couple years maybe. But how can you give them confidence? Let's say your college has an 80-85 % pass rate on the Naplex which is about average. How can you give them confidence that, you know, 45 days in, you're not going to have a bad conversation like, well they let me take it again in another month and a half so if you guys don't mend staffing and covering me now that'd be cool. You know, how can we better ourselves for the Naplex and MPJE? You know, what I recommend is take them as early as you can in the early. And that's setting yourself up during your fourth year because, you know, in a lot of states you have to get a fingerprint, you know, and the Board of Pharmacy only meets once a month or whatever like that. And it just takes sometimes 45-60 days to schedule a test. Like I with the earliest I could have taken the Naplex I think was June or July. I think July and so just making sure all of your duck's in a row. At the first month of residency you're not on a hard, most of the time you're doing like an orientation where you learn the computer system and, you know, kind of the workflow and everything. So you, if you can ever afford to like really crunch study for the Naplex or the MPJE, now is the time to do it. I really really encourage you trying to get it done as early as possible. Otherwise it's, you know, depending on where you go the first few rotations it's going to be a challenge and that you're, I don't know I don't have a great answer. I mean you just will have to find a way to fit it in, you know, I use tools, RX prep, you know, for MBJE. Well, TLDR has a nice little cheat sheet that we've made to help streamline your MPJE studying that you kind of fill out. We don't need to go into detail with it now but use the tools that you have that might save you time and then really try to take it early and prepare, you know, you're going to have, you graduate in May, early May and you don't start residency until July. Use that time, I know you're tired. Yeah. And now you want to rest up for residency but study. Get as much done while you have the time to do it because it's only going to get worse and around future you will thank you to be there now. Okay, yeah, I've talked to I guess the take on my one and two, take from that and we'll talk about the MPJE in a different podcast episode. But I've heard people blow it off as, you know, kind of irrelevant it's just the law, it'll be fine. And the failures that I hear are not by a lot of points you still lose a game by one point. Yeah. You still fail the MPJE by one point. I passed it by one point so I never hear anybody going oh, I crushed it. I was emailed today by someone, by someone that failed it twice by one point. He had a 74 both times. Oh my gosh. And I'm like, yeah it breaks my heart, you know, I got to. Right? Okay we'll talk about that another time. All right well, Brandon thanks for being on the Pharmacy Leaders Podcast  and we'll definitely have you back for the MPJE as people are studying for that. Alright thanks, Tony. Hey, what up? This is Brandon Dyson from TLDRpharmacy.com. Why am I interrupting you in the middle this excellent podcast? Because as soon as you're finished with it I want you to come to my website obviously at TLDRpharmacy.com you'll find a whole boatload of free clinical guides and cheat sheets. They'll save you hours of time and they'll make learning pharmacy easy, and also our guides are fun whether you're a student or a practicing pharmacist you'll enjoy reading them, I promise. Checkout TLDRpharmacy.com and get better at pharmacy.

Check out Becki's YouTube channel here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCTG10qvgLMRSoB9OIc6xNxA You can find her on Facebook and Instagram, too! Becki Biermaier everybodylookup@gmail.com EPISODE TRANSCRIPT INTRO: You are not here by accident. You are here by design. And you are here to find courage in the face of fear, to replace isolation with connection, to push back that feeling of overwhelm and to start feeling confident. And you know how you're going to do it? By listening to other people's stories. There's no better way to feed your soul and raise your vibration and shift your mindset than to hear the stories of those who have gone before you. I'm your host, Lori Lynn, also known as Her Royal Excitedness and I invite you to Rise and Climb. Lori Lynn: Welcome to another episode of Rise and Climb with your host, Lori Lynn. Our guest today is Becki Biermaier, Becki and I met about 20 years ago at a party with a mutual friend and we had this instant connection and I was like, "I think I found my new best friend." Becki Biermaier: Yeah, that's exactly how it was because when we left I was like, we just talked straight for five hours. I was at a party with like a hundred people and only talked to one person and then we were like: "Do you wanna get together tomorrow? What are you doing?" "Yeah, absolutely. Let's go hang out." And here we are almost 20 years later doing that. Lori: Becki is one of the people that I admire most. She is the Queen of Overcoming. Um, Becki grew up as a little person. Becki: (laughs) And still am. Lori: She grew up to about three and a half feet tall. When my three kids made it past three and a half feet, they all felt like they achieved something great. They were taller than Auntie Becki. Becki: Absolutely. Lori: One of the things that I have enjoyed most about being friends with Becki is, um, I feel like I should talk to you. I feel like we should have a conversation. So I'm going to stop talking to my listening audience and I'm just going to let you guys have a window into our conversation so that I can stop talking about her in third person. Becki: Lord, help the listening audience to track with us. Lori: Well, one of the beautiful things about having you as one of my best friends is how intentional you are. I would love for you to share some of the stories about how intentional your parents were and then how that led up to today and how you interact with kids and strangers and my kids -- how you're able to basically impact and educate people just all over the globe now on ways to handle situations with people who are disabled, who look different, who do things differently and just really normalize it and just make it like, you know, this is just how different people do different things. And how cool is that? Like God made us all different and isn't that beautiful? Um, so can you talk to me a little bit about like little, little Becki? Becki: Absolutely. Um, growing up my parents were average height and my oldest brother has diastrophic dwarfism, which is what I have as well. And then the next brother is average type. And then there's me, it's a hidden recessive gene that we have in our family. So it could go back as far as like biblical times. And Mom and dad were obviously at the children's hospital a lot with us and saw children being raised all ends of the spectrum. So there were kids who were extremely spoiled because mom and dad felt guilty and tried to overcompensate for disability. And then you had parents who were just raising normal kids and even though they were disabled, they weren't treated any differently. And they very much saw this huge divide of these kids who were over compensated for being spoiled brats and the kids who are being treated like average height kids are average, you know, um, non-disabled kids were turning out great. And so that's what they decided to do. And one of my favorite stories is growing up. We had a fall day, probably mid October, so the leaves were down here in Minnesota and mom and dad said on the night before, you know, everybody cancel your Saturday morning plans because we've got something different for you to do tomorrow. We all got up, had to be in the yard at like 8:00 AM. And, uh, they divided our backyard into three equal portions. And so my dwarf brother had a portion, my average-height brother had one and then of course I did. And they said the three of you are going to rake the yard and you're only responsible for your personal portion and it's going to take, you know, Mike and Becki the longest being disabled, but you guys need to see that you can do the exact same job that your average height brother can do. It's just you're going to have to go at it differently and it's going to take you longer. But that is how all of life is going to be for you. You're going to have to prove yourself. And so today you can, and they said, you know, tonight your feet are going to be super sore but dad and I will rub your feet and we'll give you some Ibuprofen and soak your feet so they feel better and today we'll give you breaks and things like that. They also said, you know, your other brother, he is not required to help you. He can if he wants to, but when his portion is finished, he's free to move on and go and play. And um, and so we got busy and of course my average-height brother finished right away. It didn't take him long and he helped Michael for about 10 minutes and me for 10 minutes. And I know a lot of people when I tell that story, they're like, gosh, that's really cruel for your parents to do that to you -- making handicapped kids rake the yard, you know. But it was actually one of the better things they could have done for us because I really did see at the end of the day, I can do what other people can do. I just have to go about it differently. And it may take me longer, but I can do just as good of a job. And that was one of the main lessons that really stood out to me when we were growing up. Lori: Wow. Well, I know you've told me the story about having to like clean up after dinner. Would you tell the that as well? Becki: Yeah, it was crazy because you know, chores. We all had the same chore rotation that you know, tall kids have except for obviously I didn't have to mow the lawn thankfully, but my dwarf brother, he did. And he was told just to figure it out and not in a cold way, but in a way of like, you can figure this out. And so I remember one night, it was my night, I was probably seven or so, so they had me starting on the after dinner rotation of clearing the table, putting away leftovers, throwing all the dishes. And I said, well, how am I going to get the dishes off the table? I'm not even as tall as the table. And just with great confidence they say, you know what? You are a very, very smart, smart girl. And if you're not sure you can ask the Lord and quite your heart and listen for a strategy and God will show you what to do because someday you're going to be a woman and you're going to have your own house and your own kitchen table in your own guests. And you'll have to figure this out. So let's do it now where we can practice at home and if you get stuck, we'll be in the next room. If you need ideas or you just feel like you need somebody to brainstorm with. So off they went. I think they were probably watching Wheel of Fortune and (still, that's what we watch as family -- how is Pat Sajak that old?) But anyway, I did what they said. You know, I quieted my heart and asked the Lord for help. "God, show me how am I going to get these dishes off this table." And literally I just thought of this idea of climbing up on the table, pushing the dishes to the perimeter, getting down from the table. Now, with everything, you know, serving dishes at all, right at the perimeter, I could easily carry them over to the kitchen from the dining room, drag a chair over, and do the dishes. And when I couldn't the silver out at the bottom in the sink and I tried everything. I did call my mom and I was like, "Mom, I need you to do the silverware," which was kind of me wanting to be rescued. And I love what she did because she was intentional. She said, how about if I brainstorm with you how you can do the silverware? And so she said, do you see anything around you that will help you reach the silverware from the bottom of the sink? And of course at this time I'm tired and I don't want to be doing dishes anymore. And I said, no. And she said, well, look closer. And there was a ladle that was already drying in the drying rack. And so we decided I would try that, and sure enough, the ladle worked and I could use the ladle to push the silverware up the side of the sink so I could grab them. The only thing I couldn't get out were the sharp knives. That didn't work so well. But she was glad to help me with those. And then tell me how proud she was that I had figured things out and she said, you know, someday when you have sharp knives, um, and I'm not there to get them out for you. You'll have to really think about a solution that'll work for you and maybe we can work on that. Even now, start praying, brainstorming ideas. And so stories like that where they were loving, they were kind, but they did not at all take away my, um, need to be a problem solver and they did not rob me of that. And I think that's one thing today parents can do is they just want to fix everything for their child and that doesn't serve them well in the long run. Let them struggle it out. Let us fail. But greater than that, let them see that they can be victorious on their own. If they can do it, let them do it. Lori: Yeah, I love the whole, you know, you're a smart kid. You'll figure it out. Um, I've used a lot of that, a lot of that in my own parenting. Um, you told me a story this weekend about a boy in your class who is really struggling and, um, I would love for you to share that story just because I feel like it kind of goes hand in hand with your parents believing in you and that really, um, oh, what is the word I'm looking for? Like galvanizing your belief in yourself. Um, eventually moved from Minneapolis, Minnesota to Nashville, Tennessee. Right. Completely on your own there. 19 years for 19 years. Um, but I feel like you're able to then turn around and impart that to other people and so would you mind, talking about the kid in your class? Becki: Yeah, this past year (I've been teaching for over 20 years and different times I've been principal or head of school, but it's great to be back in the classroom). And this year I had a boy in my class who just was so pressured by his parents for good grades and he was also, you know, really shall we say behaviorally challenged. And just was really struggling and trying to please mom and dad and battling with himself with, he'd rather be obnoxious kid who didn't do his work and just that struggle that happens in middle school so often and he really needed to have a good grade and just wasn't feeling confident. And I said, no, just study extra this weekend cause I really think you can do this one. It is a really hard test but you're smart enough for it. And if you study I think you'll surprise yourself but you're not going to get a natural A on this when you're going to have to really work. And um, you know, I go home and I do the weekend and don't even think twice about it. We come in Monday and he takes his test. I happen to turn it around in class and at grade it and it's sitting on my desk and he comes up to my desk to ask me a question and sees that he had gotten 98% on this test and he was so excited. And so this kid who is one of the ringleaders of the bullies is just like this giddy little boy, which is probably who he truly is on the inside. And he says, can I take a picture of this on my phone so I can text it to my dad? And I was like, absolutely, absolutely. And of course, you know, at school, no phones allowed, right? But in that moment, this little boy who truly is a little boy, even though he's a teenager, would know he could make his dad proud and he felt proud because he really pushed himself any overcame. So I let him take a picture of the grade and texted off to his dad. And, um, it was just a really sweet, sweet reminder of, you know, all you gotta do is believe in somebody and give them a little push because boy, don't we all have enough people telling us we can't, but let's find a few who tell us we can. Lori: No, it's beautiful. I love that. So when you are out and about in public and you encounter people who are not intentional about kind of normalizing um, you know, disabilities and you know, just people who look different or have different abilities or different ways of having to do things. How do you handle when like if a kid is staring at you or says something out loud parent or super awkward. Becki: Can I tell you a really funny story? So back in Nashville, I'm headed to this great pizza place, Pie in the Sky, and I am on foot, I'm not on my mobility scooter. And so I go into the restaurant, I'm the first one there with my friends and I say of course to the hostess, I'm going to need a table for four please. And she said, sure, give me just a second. Well across the restaurant is this very, very curious and surprised four year old boy, let me guess, he's around four and he sees me and he yells while he is pointing, "Mama! Look! A real life puppet!" In front of the whole restaurant. I just think that's really adorable. I mean that is like, that's pretty amazing, is really cute, you know? And of course it's my job to make sure he's comfortable and I want him to have a really great grade, all of those things. So I smile really big, big at him and then I wave and he goes me, which is amazing and I'm totally laughing inside. Mom, however, wasn't finding it as amusing as I did and she was smacking the kid on the head and saying, "Shut up, shut up, shut up," knocking him down in the booth. Really what I would have loved to do is go over to her and say, please don't do that. Please, please don't do that. Because I think that is why shame is so attached to disability. It's because the parents themselves are embarrassed by the children's behavior, but that's not what the child is translating. That's not what they're getting out of it. Right? They're getting out of it. Shame on you for, you know, the whole situation with a disabled person and it translates into disability being known with shame. And I think that's the wrong approach. So better is the parent who says, yes, I see that person over there in a wheelchair or I see that that man is using sign language or that man has no arms. And just politely say that and say, yeah, God makes everybody different. And sometimes that's just enough and the kid can, you know, move on. But it does require some times that parents actually take the initiative and bring the child over and say, you know, we noticed that you're writing in a really cool wheelchair and this is my son Joey. And can we ask you some questions? Because majority of disabled people want that and we're happy to say yes, that'd be great because we want you to have a positive experience. And so we're prepared for that. We obviously chose to go out with public. We know that we looked different and so we kind of expect that now you do randomly, you know, run into, you know, sister crabby pants or whatever. Everybody has a bad day. My job is to engage with the child and you as the parent can even just say: Tell us about your wheelchair. How fast can you go? Or tell us about the cool things that you've learned to do without having arms. Can we ask you how you brush your hair or things like that. Because then what you're doing is you're creating a new normal for your child that disability isn't a bad thing. It's just a different thing. And so you're setting your child up to have a great experience. The other thing is if you can try to keep them from hiding behind you and so at least make them come out and say hello while they're absorbed, absorbing everything that's happening around them because they're taking in all of it and they may not be able to do more than just watch. And that's okay too. When they're like four or five, three, four or five older than that, you really shouldn't expect your children to engage more in conversation and for the parents to lead the way. That's really the way to go with that. Yeah. Good stuff. So when it's done right, it's positive for everybody. Lori: Okay. You had talked about a little bit even showing pictures and oh my gosh. Have you seen, what is it called? The Butterfly Circus? No. Oh Becki, we're gonna have to watch that later. Yeah, it's a short film. It's so beautiful. But that would be an excellent example of something to share with your kids before encountering people who have, you know, I don't know deafness or loss of limbs or something like that. And I actually have resources available for parents then if they email me, it's very user friendly for parents to walk with their kids through at home to help prepare them for having good positive encounters with disabled people. And it's easy enough to print off just a few sheets that will help you know how to train your children I head of time, so you're not stuck in one of those horribly embarrassing moments. Becki: And so it really teaches parents how to help prepare and then how to provide conversation starters with disabled people. And then after the encounter, how to help your child process, what they just experienced. So I do have that available that I can get to families easily. Lori: How do they get that? Becki: Email me, everybodylookup@gmail.com and I can email you back and I can attach what you need for that. Lori: So everybodylookup@gmail.com. Awesome. And I know you've got some videos too that are great resources. Yeah. What is the name of your Youtube Channel? Becki: I believe it's Everybody Look Up. I should check that. Or you can just search for Becki Biermaier. Lori: And how do you spell your name? B. I. E. R M. A. I . E. R. And Becki has an I. Not a Y because I was an 80's child and all the girls in sixth grade, we all decided to get a rid of our Y's. Turn them into I's. So Shelli with an I. Becki with an I. Lori I'm Lori with an I. Well our final question of course we have to like dial down, go deep, do some soul searching for the final answer to the biggest question. And that is what is your favorite Karaoke song? Becki: If you ever catch me doing karaoke, please carry me off to the hospital because something must be seriously wrong if I'm ever in that moment. I never a great visual artists. Yeah. You know, my only hope could be that there would be something on stage that's three and a half feet tall that I could hide behind. Um, but I guess I would have to go with "Jesse's Girl" by Rick Springfield because he was supposed to be my husband. I had a poster on my wall and I, I really thought if you just had the chance to meet me, he would totally marry me. Now I don't know who Jesse is and I certainly don't want his girl. He can keep her, but it is a song that I, I know through and through. So I guess my karaoke choice would be "Jesse's Girl" by Rick Springfield. This is why we're friends. Love it. What's your song? I gotta know this one cause you know the night is young. It's actually not. We're approaching 11 o'clock the night is young for a young people ending for old people like us. It's true. I shouldn't get in the shower and tend to go out. I know. It's so crazy. [inaudible] started at like 11 o'clock and now we're like, hey, it's almost 11 o'clock where's my sleepy time tea. I'll knit a few rows, turning the bed with my heating pad, take my medication. (Laughs). All right, Lori, close us out. What's your favorite karaoke song? Lori: All right. Well, I don't sing, but I like to rap. Becki: Oh. Oh my gosh. 20 years. How did I not know this? Lori: And my husband ... Becki: Yes? Lori: Was supposed to be LL Cool J. Becki: Oh, you guys would be so great together. Lori: Let me tell you why. Because -- all right, so my ex-husband is named James Todd. Right? Okay. LL Cool J? His name is James Todd Smith. And the girl who lived on the next street over that was like my honorary daughter? Her last name was Smith. Oh my gosh. I was so close. And I'm Lori Lynn -- LL -- Becki: Look at all these conditions. Let's go out with you and your rapper soon to be husband and go sing Karaoke. And what will you be singing or rapping? Lori: "I Need Love." Literally. (Laughs) Becki: I think this is where we end the podcast. Probably better on some blue eye shadow and I'll meet you in the car. Lori Lynn Outro: Thanks for listening. If you thought of someone while you are listening to this episode, would you send it to them? Just let them know you were thinking about them or that they came to mind and make that connection. If you would take a minute to rate and review my show, that would mean the world to me. And let me know about topics that you want us to cover in future episodes. Oh! And don't forget to subscribe. What are you waiting for? Go! Hit the subscribe button right now! I'll see you next time. MWAH!

Let's Talk about Erectile Dysfunction... On this week's episode of the Lunch and Learn with Dr. Berry we have Dr. Jennifer Miles-Thomas, she is a Diplomate of the American Board of Urology and is also board certified in Female Pelvic Medicine and Reconstructive Surgery. As we continue the push the message and focus on men's health I wouldn't be truthful to the audience if I didn't stress the importance of sexual health. I talked about this before but as an outpatient clinical specialist, one of the top 2 reasons why men would come to see me for an appointment was either someone was dragging them to the office or erectile dysfunction complaints. Sexual health refers to a state of well-being that lets a man fully participate in and enjoy sexual activity and there is a range of physical, psychological, interpersonal, and social factors that influence a man's sexual health. I talked about this before but as an outpatient clinical specialist, one of the top 2 reasons why men would come to see me for an appointment was either someone was dragging them to the office or erectile dysfunction complaints. Dr. Jenn walks us through her decision to become a urologist, one of few African American women to hold the title, and we get into the importance of sexual health, opening up about erectile dysfunction and all of the different treatment options associated with the disease. Remember to subscribe to the podcast and share the episode with a friend or family member. Listen on Apple Podcast, Google Play, Stitcher, Soundcloud, iHeartRadio, Spotify Sponsors: Lunch and Learn Community Online Store (code Empower10) Pierre Medical Consulting (If you are looking to expand your social reach and make your process automated then Pierre Medical Consulting is for you) Dr. Pierre's Resources - These are some of the tools I use to become successful using social media Links/Resources: Dr. Jennifer Website Dr. Jenn's IG Urology Care Foundation Mayo Clinic Foundation American Urological Association Social Links: Join the lunch and learn community – https://www.drberrypierre.com/joinlunchlearnpod Follow the podcast on Facebook – http://www.facebook.com/lunchlearnpod Follow the podcast on twitter – http://www.twitter.com/lunchlearnpod – use the hashtag #LunchLearnPod if you have any questions, comments or requests for the podcast For More Episodes of the Lunch and Learn with Dr. Berry Podcasts https://www.drberrypierre.com/lunchlearnpodcast/ If you are looking to help the show out Leave a Five Star Review on Apple Podcast because your ratings and reviews are what is going to make this show so much better Share a screenshot of the podcast episode on all of your favorite social media outlets & tag me or add the hashtag.#lunchlearnpod Download Episode 113 Transcript Episode 113 Transcript... Introduction Dr. Berry: And welcome to another episode of the Lunch and Learn with Dr. Berry. Dr. Berry Pierre, your favorite Board Certified Internist. Founder of drberrypierre.com, as well as the CEO of Pierre Medical Consulting, which helps you empower yourself for better health with the number one podcast for patient advocacy. And this week we have a doozy, of course, this is men's health month. And I thought, no other topic, right? If I had to choose one topic that really hit home and hammer home when we talk about men and ways that we can work on getting them to see the doctor more, know the topic shot to the top of my mind as well as my read my mind than sexual health. And today we're going to be talking about those big two letters, ED - erectile dysfunction. And I thought it get, you know what, I do have some experience taking care of patients with ED, but who better to really educate the community and really expand the knowledge base of the Lunch and Learn community than urologists. And I was very fortunate for this urologist coming on the show, this is Dr. Jennifer Miles-Thomas. She earned her medical degree from Northwestern University school of medicine. She cleared her undergrad degree in biology at Virginia Commonwealth University. She did a general surgery internship at John Hopkins and completed a urology residency as well as a separate fellowship and female urology and neurology at the James Buchanan Brady Urological Institute. Dr. Jenn Miles-Thomas is a diplomat of the American Board of Urology and she is also a board certified and female pelvic medicine and reconstructive surgery. So again, I know that may seem like a mouthful, but you know, short and sweet Dr. Jenn is absolutely amazing and she is crazy smart, right? If you had to think about what does all that mean? That's probably just me as those who send in this podcast. She is absolutely brilliant and we're in for a treat. And I could tell you during this interview if I wish you could see some of my facial expressions that I was making during the time when she was really explaining and educating me through Lunch and Learn community members. The different ways and treatment modalities associated with erectile dysfunction. So you guys are in for a treat. Remember like always, if you have not had a chance, go ahead and subscribe to the podcast, leave a five-star review and comment for the podcast as well as make sure you tell a friend, tell a friend, tell a friend to just share podcasts. Especially because I know someone has someone in a family member, especially male, right? Who has not seen a doctor in years. And I hate to say that you're partly to blame, but if someone's not seeing the doctor in years and years, seeing the doctor regularly, that's something that we, we need to address ASAP. If someone is not going to a doctor, especially in male, right? And you're also not going to the doctor, is going to be very difficult for you to try to convince that man that he needs to go see a physician as well. So please take the time to listen, again, we're talking about sexual health, we talk about few things as well, especially associated with Dr. Jenn as far as what she does on the size, especially from a business standpoint. You guys are gonna want to stick around for that. So again, leave her five-star review. Let me know how you feel. And again, thank you for all that you do. You guys have a great and blessed day and let's get ready for another amazing episode here on the Lunch and Learn with Dr. Berry. Episode Dr. Berry: Alright, Lunch and Learn community again you just heard this amazing introduction from an expert that I definitely think is needed, right? Especially in this month of men's health month. And I have always joked in the past, but I really, I kind of say half-jokingly, a lot of times when I get men to come in my office to see me on an outpatient visit, right? This was this field, right? It was one of the main reasons why they would come, right? Like there are usually two reasons. One, family member drags him. Two, got some sexual issues, right? And of course, obviously I could talk from an internist standpoint, but I figured, you know, let's get an expert to come in and help educate us and you know, kind of get us mindset ready for the month and really show us, you know, why this is such an important topic, right? Even though we kind of say jokingly, right? This is actually an extremely important topic for men, right? Because again, like I said, it is one of the main reasons why I would get him to come see me in my office, right? So again, first of all, thank you for joining the Lunch and Learn community. Dr. Jenn: Oh, you're so welcome. Thank you for having me. Dr. Berry: So, Dr. Jenn, I told them about your amazing bio and just give the audience just, you know, let's say for some reason they skipped the introduction and they want to know, like, who's the person on the podcast this week? Right? Like, tell us something that may not be in your bio. And it says like, hey, you know, this is why I'm who I am. Dr. Jenn: I live in a very interesting life. I am a urologist who is a female, who is African American. So there's only really a few of us across the country. (Yeah. That is so true.) Yeah. What else is interesting? I'm married with three children, so that's a little bit different. Sometimes it's hard to balance a high powered, stressful career and a family. And I've recently gotten into extreme sports, so I've been snowboarding and I just finished a triathlon this past weekend, so I'm kind of all out there. Dr. Berry: Oh Wow. That's okay, alright. I love it. Okay. That's how you started the show, right? This type of show about to go on. Right? (Exactly.) So Lunch and Learn community, we talked, you know, if you caught the most recent episode, if you caught the live streams, you know that June is men's health month and you know that I have made it a point to try to call out my male listeners and my male friends and family members to really stress the importance of health awareness and why we're dedicating a whole month for that? Cause that's always the big issue, right? Like why am I getting home on this specific topic? And why is men's health month so important? Because really it's killing us. Right? And I've talked about it before. The top 10 leading causes in the world, men dominate those categories, right? Why? Because, you know, we're just not taking care of ourselves. So I wanted to get on Jenn to, again, in urology. And like I say, I don't know if you realize it like, especially when you think about urology is usually not one way you think about. But female urologist, right? So just the how like that subcategory namely African-American is, you know, this is a gem that was actually, you know, we're finding here to be able to kind of talk to her, which I'm definitely excited for. So Dr. Jenn, if you would just kind of give the Lunch and Learn little bit introduction on, you know what actually is the urology? Just so you can kind of get in the same mental ballpark of where we're at. Dr. Jenn: Yeah. So it's interesting. So a urologist is a specialist who also a surgeon who works with the organs of the genital-urinary tract. So in English, what does that mean? That means it's a doctor. I know. So that means I’m a doctor who deals with problems of the kidney, the bladder, the testicles, the prostate, the penis, in men and women. So sometimes it's medical therapy and sometimes it's surgery. We do both. But those are the organs we take care of. Dr. Berry: It is really kind of interesting. I'm an internist. For those for some reason is the first time catching a show, I'm an internist so I practice in the hospital. But what made you say, you know, urology is the field for me? Dr. Jenn: So the real story is I thought I was going to be like the female version of Ben Carson. So I was going into med school, but I do neurosurgery, right? But sometimes that's very hard and I'm a big quality of life person and sometimes there are things you just can't fix. And after a couple of cases that were out of everyone's control emotionally, I didn't know if I could do that every day. Sometimes you'll see a 30-year-old who has a bleed and they'll never be the same and some things you can fix them some things you can't. And I said, well, I know I really want to focus on the quality of life. So one of my friends, of course, who's male was said, hey, you should do urology. And I was like, Oh yeah, that's a bunch of old men. Like, why would I wanna do urology? This is real talk. Okay, why would I want to do that? Right. So I did a rotation like we do in medical school, and every time I went into the room, the wives would be, are you going into urology? Let me tell you about my problem. And I was like, well, what's going on here? Like why are these people asking me? And I didn't know at the time that there weren't very many female urologists. So probably when I started they were probably less than 5% in the country. Now it's like seven and a half percent. But I mean, I've been out for more than a decade. Yeah. There are not that many female urologists. There are quite a few residents who are coming through. The classes are more 50-50 which is great. But still, I mean there was definitely a need. So I decided to go into it and I love it. I would never do anything different. This is who I am and what I needed to go into. Because urology, it's one of those fields where it's very technical, it's very surgical. But what you're talking about on a daily basis is what people don't want to talk about. It's what they're afraid to mention. They don't tell other people, they don't even tell their wives or their husbands really what's going on and you're able to give them back that quality of life. So for me, every day it's a gift. Dr. Berry: I’m glad that you touched on that way because I can tell you I've had plenty appointments where the guy comes in for a very vague reason and you know right when I'm about to try to get out there and say “doc, doc before you leave”. Once I know I get one of those, hey doc before you leave, I already know exactly the direction go. It's so taboo that even when they come to see, you know, their regular outpatient clinical doctor for your checkup, it's very tough for them to even come out and say it, which is mind-boggling. Right? Because you would think like, hey no, that issue. If I'm having problems with that area, right? Like I want to make sure like that's the first thing I'm putting down on paper. (Yes.) Nope. They'll say, no, I had a cold and that's why I'm here. I definitely, and I love that you get that even on both friends. Right? Because I would figure it with women, it'd be a little bit more open. So I interested to hear that. Even on both sides, some people are very secretive on, you know, letting them know like these are some of the problems I'm dealing with. Dr. Jenn: Exactly. And I think it's a little bit different because in my world I just directly ask. So it's not that you have to wait and say, okay, as I'm walking in the door and kind of build up the courage, I'm just going to ask you how your erections are, how many times you get up at night, how are your erections? It's just regular, you know, it's a Tuesday. Why not? Dr. Berry: I love it. That's okay. That's fine. Okay, we like that way. Direct, no sugarcoating. This is why I'm here for it. Clearly, this is why you see me now. Now especially for urologic standpoint is that a lot of the different reasons why someone may come to see you just, I obviously we're talking about sexual health. I like this is what are somebody like the common issues and complaints and that you may see it as like, oh, I'm coming to see you for this. Dr. Jenn: Sure. So it's not just erectile dysfunction. A lot of times we'll see people for kidney stones, we'll see people for kidney tumors or bladder cancer, a lot of prostate cancer. Sometimes people will just have blood in their urine or bladder infections or they'll have like testicular pain or especially for women incontinence or leaking during the day and having to wear pads. So we see people for a variety of reasons. Dr. Berry: And obviously, has definitely, something that from your logical standpoint, I think it's a very interesting, right? Because a lot of times I think when we think of surgical specialties, we tend to think that they all they do with surgery. Right? And very interesting to understand like, no, there's a lot of clinical and you know, even psychosocial if I would like to stretch it issues kind of centered around some of the stuff that people are coming to see you for. Dr. Jenn: Exactly. Urology has one of those fields where you can operate and do very large major cases. You can do a lot of bread and butter, common cases. And then as you get older and closer to retirement, there are many things you can just do in the office. So it's one of those professions where you can do it throughout your career. Dr. Berry: Obviously, we wanna, you know, we’ll hit home because this is definitely, you know, the reason why someone's listening to at least this week's episode. Right. So let's talk about sexual health, right? And I know we alluded to it, but like how important is it, right? Especially from the men and women with obviously is men's health month, we'll give them a shy, we'll definitely bring you on. We need to talk about the women because I definitely don't want to make sure you eat them out. (Okay.) In that regards. But especially for men, like I like how important is sexual health for them, right? Like what is some of the like, oh, before I came to see you this house for a little bit after you take care of me. Like this is how I'm building now. Dr. Jenn: So regardless of what's on the news where people say sexual health is very, very important. Why? Because it's part of you. I mean, we're all animals. We all have the same instincts and when something doesn't work or it's change, how do you feel about yourself, you don't feel the same. So it's not that people fall into depression, but they just, they've lost a part of their life, a part of their relationship that was very, very important to them. This is psychological. This is physical. A lot of times with sexual dysfunction, there may be other things medically going on at the same time. So sometimes it's like the red flag of, Hey, where else do we need to look? What else could be going on at the same time? So I'd say this is very important and I think people realize it's important, but there's such a taboo about talking about it. I mean, of course, our popular media has changed and sex is a lot more out there. But when people are talking about their own personal sexuality and health, it's still taboo. Dr. Berry: Do you find the conversation a little bit more difficult because you are a female urologist when you're in your office or is it by the time they come they see you like they've already kind of cleared that hurdle? Dr. Jenn: So it's funny. So I would say that it's generational. So the Millennials, they don't care. They just want their stuff fixed regardless. Any boundaries whatsoever, everything will tell me what they did, how they did it and what they want to do in the future. They don't really have an issue. The kind of middle age, I would say like 30 to 60 takes a few minutes just for going to comfortable. But then they realized my personality is like, Hey, this is, this is just what we do and we're going to just say it and I'm going to ask you questions and we're going to help fix the problem. They get very comfortable. Over 65 or 70 sometimes it takes them a little while because first of all, they're from a generation where they didn't really talk about sex the same way that current generations do, and sometimes they never were really educated about their body or what was normal, what's not normal, what things should look like, what they should feel like, what are other signs? So after probably one or two sessions, then, oh, they open up about everything and sometimes they'll bring their wives. So we all can have the same discussion and figure out what's going on and how we could help. Dr. Berry: Okay, alright. Let’s make it a group appointment. Dr. Jenn: Yep. I have quite a few group appointments. It's okay. Dr. Berry: So speaking of a normal, what's not normal, right? Let talk about, you know, EB - erectile dysfunction, right? For Lunch and Learn community who may have been living under a rock and you know, we haven't seen one of those thousand commercials. Right? What is it exactly? Dr. Jenn: Okay. So the technical definition of ED or erectile dysfunction is, it's the ability to attain or maintain a penile erection sufficient for satisfactory sexual performance. So what does that mean? That means if you have difficulty either getting or keeping an erection that's good enough for you is what ED is. (Very subjective.) It is. So some people have don't have erections but don't care well, you know, that's perfectly fine. Other people, it takes them a little bit longer to ejaculate or they ejaculate too early and that's fine for them and that's fine. But anywhere in the middle, it's all based upon your own personal satisfaction. Dr. Berry: It was interesting. Do you tend to find common reasons for why that may occur? Is there a couple of things I get they, everyone who follows in this category always seems to have ED or what does someone have some of the causes that you've seen kind of work that are associated with ED? Dr. Jenn: Well, the biggest cause, especially in America is diabetes. (Okay. Alright.) Yeah. So diabetes, like I kind of explained it to people. Well you know what as it affects the small blood vessels and the small nerves and it's kind of interesting because if you relate it back and you say, you know how sometimes your fingertips will tangle or your toes will tangle or they're a go numb and you don't feel them. That's because those little small blood vessels of the small nerves aren't getting what they need because the sugar control is out of control and it's damaging. The same thing with your penis. It basically has really small nerves and sometimes if things aren't going to work it's because your blood sugars have been too high. So you really have to work on getting your blood sugars under control in order to get back some of this function. And when you kind of make it like that analogy, it makes sense. It's something tiny and small and diabetes affects the tiny small blood vessels. Dr. Berry: I love that, especially cause I know for Lunch and Learn community members like we've talked about diabetes and we've talked about all of the effects of diabetes. I even wrote a blog where I said I don't even wish diabetes on my worst enemy just because of all of the different things it's associated with. So now we know, you know, especially for as again, if you're diabetic and you're just blowing it off as just a sugar disease, now you can see, especially from a man, right? Cause we're talking to them in this men month, right? This is another reason why you should take care of yourself. Right? Because you don't want to have ED, you don't want ED to take care of your diabetes. So that's, okay. I love it. Dr. Jenn: Exactly. Now, other things we have to think about too, we’re learning and associating a lot more with heart disease. Because again, it's the small blood vessels that are feeding the penis. So if someone has early onset erectile dysfunction, like their thirties and forties we're also working with cardiologists to screen them and to make sure that they don't have plaques or cardiovascular disease because the small blood vessels are usually affected first. Dr. Berry: Now is that something that comes up just while you're asking a lot of your questions, like, hey, do you have this, do you have that? Do you have this? And then it you just kind of seeing this correlation kind of growing? Dr. Jenn: Yes, definitely. So of course when you're seeing a patient and you have their medical lists, do you know what medications they're on? You know their past medical history, but if someone who's never been in the system, and it's just coming to you for this, this is what we screen for. If you look at the major academic centers, most of them have men health clinics and it's usually an internist or urologist as well as a cardiologist because we're finding that these overall health syndromes, metabolic syndromes are being diagnosed with people first seeking care for erectile dysfunction. Dr. Berry: Wow. Okay. Alright. So again, if you're listening, if you're paying attention, especially for, let's say you have a family member or friend who you know, is suffering from some of these other diseases and it's very difficult to get them to come to the doctor, right? This now you have another weight in, right? You don't want to, hey, you know, you'll take your blood pressure. This can also happen, right? Cause again, usually two reasons. Usually, a family member is forcing them to come to the doctor's office or they got some sexual issues, right? So again, this is another way that we can kind of like start pushing them in back into the doctor's office and getting them right. Again, they're aware of just everything that's kind of going on. Thank you. Thank you for that. (No problem.) So when they come to you and you know what you do your screening and they're checking all the boxes off for ED. Of course, I'm pretty sure by the time they've seen those thousands of commercials. Right? But what are some of the treatment options that are out there? One, what we'll talk about the common ones, the one that they may not even know about? Dr. Jenn: Yes. First of all, of course, I have to say this disclaimer and this warning, everything that you see on TV or can order on the Internet isn't safe for you. (Yes. And then the gas station.) The gas station attendant does not know more than your doctor about your erectile dysfunction. That's all I got to say. But honestly, the FDA did a recent crackdown and urologist across the country got a notification. Some of these medications, I wouldn't say medications in quotes that are available over the internet that thought excellent results in work actually have controlled medications and them like generics and Viagra and Cialis and things like that. And so we get updates and kind of the names of over the counter medications that we need to look out and screen our patients for because yes, everyone knows the names of these brand new medications, but honestly, they're expensive. So people try to find other things that will work instead. But unfortunately, things that aren't controlled by the FDA or go through a rigorous screening process, things that are like natural types of products sometimes aren't always in your best interest to use because they do have active ingredients from drugs that are controlled and there are always potential side effects. You don't really know what you're taking. So I just want to put that warning out there. But the first day and for treatment option is to kind of divide and see what's your actual issue is. So I get the question all the time. Is it my testosterone? Do I need testosterone? (Yes. Let’s talk about that.) Allow me to tell you about testosterone. Testosterone is important for men. So it's actually made by your testicles. So a signal from your brain goes down to your testicles and says, hey, we need more testosterone floating in your bloodstream. When you have normal levels of testosterone, you have a libido. And what's libido? Libido is the desire to have sex or to engage in like sexual activity. Now if you give someone testosterone, you will increase their libido. But that does not mean that they'll get an erection. So you have, when you come in and say, I have erectile dysfunction, can I have testosterone? If your testosterone is low, just know that you may have a libido, but that doesn't always mean that your erection will change. Okay. So what do we do for actual erections? Well, the way I practice, we always go from least invasive to most invasive. I first want to make sure there's nothing medically wrong like there is not a tumor or something else that we can see what's going on that may be causing a problem. But if there's not in the first thing we can try as oral medication, and it's the ones that we know in medical lingo, we call them PDE five inhibitors. And basically what happens is when you get an erection, your brain puts out a signal and the nerves basically send and this transmitter that says, hey, I need blood flow in. And as the cylinders fill in the penis, it cuts off the vein. So you don't draw that blood back out. So your penis just fills and then it stays that way until your brain says, oh, I'm done. And then it stops feeling and it slowly gets smaller as the blood drains back out. So that's actually how an erection work. Now the other thing that's important is an erection is different than orgasm or ejaculation. They are controlled by different nerves. So one set of nerves gives you the erection. The other set of nerves allows you to ejaculate during an orgasm. (So actually problems in different sections.) Exactly. (Okay.) And also you can have an orgasm without having an erection. So that's why we have like a real conversation when we have these things. Because I mean, how would you know that unless you actually asked? It's not like you can just Google it, right? Probably can, but I haven't tried to. It's best if you actually just talked to someone. Dr. Berry: Lunch and Learn community, please talk personal. No Google. Dr. Jenn: So after the medications, there are other things you can do too. So a lot of people know about the medications, some of them are more expensive. But the good news is a lot of generics are now in the market. So yes, there are much more affordable. But let's say you try to medications and they don't work or you don't feel good or right when you're taking them or they don't work well enough. The next one, there's actually a little insert, it looks like a little tablet that you can put at the tip of your penis and it has medication that causes the blood to flow into your penis. That's an option. (Oh Wow. Okay.) There is also an injection. So you know how there are when people have diabetes, there are these little pens that you can inject the insulin. Well, there's a little kind of a little injection that you can inject on the side of your penis and also we'll put medication directly into your penis and cause you to have an erection. Dr. Berry: So let me stop you there. Right? (Okay, good.) When I had my diabetic patients, they're not get drilled and I gotta have that discussion where I'm saying, hey, you know what, the pills not working no more. You have to start injecting yourself and I know the face and the fight against once I have to go that right, like how does that conversation when you're telling the person like, hey those bills aren't the thing for you. We got to start injecting yourself and only if you had to start injecting directly in your penis. Right? Like what is that conversation like in the office? Dr. Jenn: So I get the same response kind of wide eyes like oh that's not going to happen. And then the next question is does it work? And when I say yes it works and people are very happy that can do it, they set out at least try it. Now we don't just send somebody home with the needle to stick in their penis. Like that's not what we do. We actually have nurses. So you come in for an appointment and we have to dose the medication because we want you to be able to get an erection. But we don't want you to have it all day, right? So we have to make sure you get the right dose of medication. So we actually have, it's called ICI, we actually have nurses who would just come see you as an appointment, we'd give you a test dose, we'd make sure you get an adequate erection, and then we also make sure it goes down and usually we have your partner there with you because sometimes people mentally can't do it and sometimes their partners are able to do it for them. Or once they see it they say, oh, it's not as big of a deal as I thought it was going to be. It doesn't hurt as much. I had never even heard that I could do that. So it was a little bit weird. But then once you do it and then you get a great erection and it works, people are happy. Dr. Berry: Okay. Now is there, especially, I'm tripping on this injection thing. Is there something like an office right that reverses it or is it just kind of like supposed to go down on its own over time? Dr. Jenn: So it's supposed to go down on its own over time because the medications aren't long acting. They're shorter acting. (Okay.) That's why we do the first trials in the office because if it doesn't go down then we give you medication to make it go down. Now there's also another option that you can have and it's called a vacuum erection device and what it looks like kind of, look at him. Dr. Berry: Lunch and Learn community you could see my face right now. I am learning just as long as relating, I'm like, okay. Alright. Again, I’m an internist, by this time, I'm referring them to the urologist. I don't. Okay, so now I'm processing right with you. Dr. Jenn: Okay. So if vacuum erection device looks like a little cylinder, and what it does is at one end of the cylinder near the base of the penis, it has like a little, I don't know, think of it as like a little rubber band and you can basically like squeezed a little cylinder. And what happens is it's a vacuum, so it draws blood into your penis and then you roll down the little kind of rubber band on it and that rubber band prevents the blood from flowing back into your body. (Okay.) So this is something that's, it's a little bit less spontaneous, but still, there are no needles, there's no medication. That's something natural and you can do it on your own and it does work. All the vacuum erection device. And then if none of that works, there are penile prostheses. So a prosthetic is a device that we surgically put inside of your penis. And usually what we do is we have a little pump that looks like a little squeeze pump that we put next to your testicles and all you have to do is squeeze that pump and then your penis would pump up because we actually have a reservoir with like saline or water in it that fills those little tubes. So if nothing else works, that's a guaranteed way to get an erection. Dr. Berry: Now is the stepwise approach for this patient, right? Is that the end? I'm like, this didn't work, this didn't work, this didn't work. Alright, let's go to the prostheses. Or is it kind of patient dependent when you're kind of deciding like, all right, which route we're gonna go end up mean? Dr. Jenn: So typically it step-by-step, but it's patient driven. So if I see a 30-year-old who's never tried a drug, we're gonna, I'm gonna let them know that there is the option for prosthesis, but that's not what's recommended. So you try to do minimal to get the benefit. And then if you fail or you're not willing to do it, you can move on. But a penile prosthesis, that's the end. That's what we have to offer. It does work, but you can't go back. So once you have the surgery that means that the medications won't work. Injections won't work. You have the surgery. So that's why it's the last thing that we do. Dr. Berry: You mentioned 30-year-old because that gives pressure someone to my own community. It was like 30 because I know they're probably thinking this is a quote-unquote old man's disease. What some of the age ranges that you're seeing with patients with erectile dysfunction that even someone in Lunch and Learn community might be surprised by like, oh my God, they're that old dealing with this problem? Dr. Jenn: Yeah. So from young in the thirties, twenties and thirties sometimes I've seen college kids who everything was fine and now situationally with the new girlfriend or whoever, I'm just not able to get an erection and we kind of work through what's going on because remember, this is all controlled by the brain. There's something going on in the brain that's prohibiting it from making that message to get an erection and there are actual sexual therapists. These aren't like woo on TV people. These are real people who say, okay, let's break it down. What's actually going on in your life that is causing you to feel this way, is causing your brain not to secrete the right neurotransmitters for you to actually have an erection. And it does help. I've seen people who couldn't ejaculate, couldn't have orgasms. They meet with these therapists and they're like, my eyes were opened and things are all good now and it's real. And you just never thought you'd be talking about your sex life with someone, but you know what? It's quality of life. Either you can stay the way that you are or you can get it fixed and since there are people available to fix it, that's what you do and you move on. And you keep doing live in life. Dr. Berry: Exactly. Oh, I love it and tell you I'm loving this conversation guys. I wish you get to see my face during some of the parts so you can understand. It's a learning process for it all. And it's real because these are real-life conversations that we're having on a day to day basis. Again, if you have to scare, some of your friends or family members to get it into the doctor's office, to get this taken care of, please do so. Right? Cause it, it, it needs to be done because this isn't something that, again, I know you see that thousands of commercials and I know we're going to ask Dr. Jenn where should someone go look, right? Cause I know where it, we're saying don't go to doctor Google. Right? We already know, Lunch and Learn community members you all googling when I tell you don't Google, you're going to Google anyway. Even when I tell you don't go to YouTube and watch that surgery beforehand, you're going to do it. They were like, we just know how you all do now. Is there any viable sources that you will say like, hey, if you got to like read up on this subject, like read this website, like is there anywhere that you would point on to? Dr. Jenn: Yeah. So for urologists across the US we have, it's called the urology care foundation. So it's ways to educate patients on urologic conditions. So it's the legitimate source of information. It's not a company trying to sell you anything, it's just the real deal of this is what you need to do and it's written in plain, straight forward English and that would be urologyhealth.org. So Urology is U R O L O G Y health dot org. The other sites that are good and give straightforward information would be mayoclinic.org or webmd.com. Those are actually good, straightforward information and someone who wants a little bit more detail and are like, okay, I've read all that. It's kind of generic but I want more detail. Our Actual Association for Urologist has a great website too for under education and it'll show you what all the guidelines are. So like if you're hearing this from one person, you're not sure, you can actually see what the published guidelines are and every few years, every like four or five years, we all get together and we revise them and say, this is what the data shows us, this is what standard of care is, this is what you should be offering, this is what you need to think about. And that is auanet.org and that's for the urology association and that's the standard of care. So those are ones that are just straightforward. You can get the real deal information with no bias and understand why this has happened. Dr. Berry: And Lunch and Learn community members, just like always, all of these links, especially if you're driving, you're at work, wherever you're at listening to this, all these things will be in the show notes. So you know, I definitely want to make sure we're pointing you in the right direction. Because it's important to hear it because I know you guys, you guys are gonna want to follow up to make sure we not talking crazy. So we've got to point you to the right direction to make sure that doesn't occur as well. So again, I've done thank you for that, right. Because this is again, this has been very eye-opening, mind-blowing experience. I'm learning, I'm out to go to the website right when we're done, just don't make sure I can educate my patients, and of itself with such an important topic at hand, this is a portion of the podcast that I love, right? Because you know, I bring a guest on to really educate our community. But I'm just kinda selfish, right? Cause I also bring them on, right? Cause I really want to promote them right. And you know, say what, how to cause most of the people I kind of see and follow them. I'm shadow following them one way or the other. So I like to see people who are sending out doing some stuff, right? Like, and whether it's medicine, not medicine, doing some stuff is always something that I love to see out of our physicians. So this I like to call it, it's like our promo, our promo appeared. Right? Dr. Jenn, obviously we know you're amazing urologists. Is there anything that you do that someone in Lunch and Learn community may be able to benefit from or any books or whatever? This is your time, right? You tell us what you got going on and anything going on and let us know how we can continue to support you. Dr. Jenn: Well, I told you I'm a big quality of life person, right? So a lot of times what I see, especially with patients in medicine, is that a lot of times people don't search for answers because of money. Medicine is getting more and more expensive and the way that the insurance companies are moving, they're pushing more and more of that onto the patients. I don't think that's going to change anytime soon. Those insurance companies are really the wealthiest ones in the game. So they're going to determine what we do, (keep that money to themselves.) Exactly. Exactly. So what I do is I actually talk about money. I talk about money on Instagram and online too, and kind of help people figure out how to get a debt, how to build wealth, and how did it get their stuff together. Because if that's one less thing you have to worry about, think about your overall mental health. If you're no longer stressed about having to pay bills if you're no longer stressed about, how am I going to rob Peter to pay Paul, things like that. I think I'm just a person who has a lot of tough conversations and sex and money are the two things that people don't want to talk about in public. (I love it.) So that's what I talk about for sure. So on Instagram now, it was kind of embarrassing because I do put some of my personal life out there on Instagram. So on Instagram, I'm doctor, which is Dr. Jenn, J. E. N. N. M. D. That's probably the easiest place to kind of follow me and kind of see what I do. I put some of the pictures of me out and about doing some of my extreme sports on there too. Dr. Berry: Then that's what I want to go see doing extreme sports. I want to see that. Dr. Jenn: Yeah, well the snowboarding was interesting. I only did the before picture. Right. So it's all good. But yeah, that'd be the best way to follow me and my links to my website. It's drjennmd.com. All that stuff is on Instagram too, so you can kind of get a little picture of my life and how I really role. Dr. Berry: I love it. So we need to talk to Dr. Jenn. Get our messages together and get our sexual health together. Get our money together. Let's get all that. Right? And it’s 2019. We're halfway through the year. Definitely no time like the present especially for a men's health month and making sure we are getting all of our ducks in line, especially when it comes to sexual health and the importance of sexual health and the massive education lesson that we got today. Definitely thankful for Dr. Jenn. Thank you. Dr. Jenn: Oh, you're so welcome. You're so very welcome. Dr. Berry: Yes. So before I leave, how I was like answer this question. How is what you're doing helping to empower men especially when we talk about sexual health? What are you doing to really empower this and get them to make sure that they’ve taken better care to sexual health? Dr. Jenn: I'm asking the questions and I'm educating them because as we know, knowledge is power. If you don't know, you'll get left behind. There are a lot of people out there that have resources that are getting things fixed and done. There's a lot of small little things you can do to change your overall quality of life, but if you don't know what to ask or don't know something is available, you're going to miss out. So I think my role is really to ask those hard questions and educate my patients. People I see, people I come in contact with, that's what my role is to educate. Dr. Berry: I love it. And for those who may know, again Dr. Jenn obviously being a urologist, being African American and female, obviously there's you know, proponent of women's health that really goes into a lot of care to and of course, and I kind of pick and hold there on this episode, really talk about the men, but she will be, I'm going to beg her, we'll be coming back, right? Because I definitely wanted to hear about a lot of the women's health-related amongst sexual health and all the urological problems that I know they got. Right. Why? Because trust me, if you think I'm referring fast when it comes to men talking about sexual health and all the things you best believe once my women patients say like, hey Dr. Pierre, like this is happening. I'm having problems urinating. Anything that goes on in that area, is okay, alright. There you go. So we'll definitely make sure she comes on to really educate us on woman side as well too. So again Dr. Jenn, thank you for really taking the time out to educate Lunch and Learn community. I know this extremely informal cause I'm still like, okay, I'm still thinking about the pump. I was still thinking about it. And you have a great day. Thank you. Dr. Jenn: Alright. Thank you so much. Download the MP3 Audio file, listen to the episode however you like.

Weeks ago, the world watched helplessly as he Notre Dame Cathedral, burned. While this event was notable for many reasons, one of the things that struck us here at Technically Religious was the protocol used by emergency responders: Save the people, save the art, save the altar, save what furniture you can, then focus on the structure, in that order. We know what can be rebuilt and what can't.” In this episode, Josh and Leon compare and contrast that disaster recovery process to the ones typically used in IT. Listen or read the transcript below. Leon: 00:00 Hey everyone. It's Leon. Before we start this episode, I wanted to let you know about a book I wrote. It's called "The Four Questions Every Monitoring Engineer is Asked", and if you like this podcast, you're going to love this book. It combines 30 years of insight into the world of IT with wisdom gleaned from Torah, Talmud, and Passover. You can read more about it, including where you can get a digital or print copy over on adatosystems.com. Thanks! Leon: 00:25 Welcome to our podcast where we talk about the interesting, frustrating, and inspiring experiences we have as people with strongly held religious views working in corporate IT. We're not here to preach or teach you our religion. We're here to explore ways we make our career as IT professionals mesh - or at least not conflict - with our religious life. This is Technically Religious. Josh: 00:45 A few weeks ago, the world watched helplessly as one of the iconic buildings in Paris, the Notre Dame cathedral burned. While this event was notable for many reasons. One of the things that struck us here at Technically Religious was a response by one of the bystanders, who understood what was happening on the ground. He said, Leon: 01:04 "The fire department in Paris followed a protocol. Save the people, save the art, save the altar, save what furniture you can, then focus on the structure. In that order. They know what can be rebuilt and what can't." Josh: 01:17 Now that smacks of a disaster recovery policy to us. But I think we in IT might look at it differently. Which is what we're going to do in this episode. Joining in the discussion with me today is Leon Adato. Leon: 01:31 Hi everyone. And of course, the other voice that you're hearing is Josh Biggley. Josh: 01:35 Hello. Hello. Leon: 01:36 Okay, so I think the first thing, because we're talking about disaster recovery, is let's get our terms. Let's define our data library and differentiate between redundancy, high availability, disaster recovery, risk mitigation, all those things. So do you wanna take a crack at it? Do you want to just collaboratively? Do this? Josh: 01:58 I love redundancy. And in this world of cloud, I think redundancy is the thing that we do really well now because you know, you can set up a system that is in two regions and so if one of your regions fails here, the region will pickup, you can do a multisite region. Redundancy to me feels like a descriptor that actually bridges across HA and DR and risk mitigation. Um, yeah, redundancy feels like a catchall term, right? It's not something you can achieve. I don't know. What do you think, Leon? Leon: 02:36 All right. All right. So I think redundancy at its simplest is "there's another one of them." There's another Josh: 02:42 Oh, like RAID Leon: 02:43 Yeah. Okay. Right. There's like RAID, you know, having multiple disks - RAID 0 - which is just having two discs, one backing up the other constantly. Or RAID 5... any of the other flavors of raid. So I think redundancy means "having more than one" and yes, redundancy can fit into a high availability plan. But high availability is more nuanced. High availability means that no matter what happens, the "thing" - the service, or the the network, or whatever, is going to be available. That can also be done by doing load balancing. It can also be done by, you know, in networking terms, channel bonding, so you can have those. So redundancy by itself is just "more than one of those at a time." So if one fails, the other one is still going or can take over. But high availability I think has more flavors to it. And then you have disaster recovery. That means that all your beautiful efforts at high availability have failed and it still went down. And so now you're left trying to recover from the failure. But at that point the failure is done. It has occurred, the system has crashed, you know, the meteor has hit the data center. Whatever it is and now you're trying to rebuild or pick up the pieces or whatever it is. Then you have risk mitigation, which sounds a little bit like, "We believe that this disaster could potentially occur, and we want to see what we can put in place to completely avoid the disaster, but we're going to do that ahead of time." So in the case of the Notre Dame fire, it might've been, you know, a sprinkler system. Just something like that. Like that would have been a nice little risk mitigation idea. Josh: 04:37 You know, I wonder how many of those risk mitigation things that we do on our lives are really, uh, to make us feel better. Leon: 04:46 Okay. So like the, you know, security theater kind of stuff, Josh: 04:50 Right, right. Yeah. Like, um, you know, locking your front door. I mean, if someone really wants in your house, they're just going to kick your front door down. I mean, if the police want in, they're going to get in, you know? No deadbolt you pick up at home depot is going to keep them out. Right? Leon: 05:08 No. Um, and, and I know this is a topic that Destiny Bertucci would love to be part of because this is one of her big things. But, so the thing about the dead bolts in the house, it's first of all, they don't need to kick down the door because you have windows. And I don't mean the computer system... Josh: 05:24 Ha ha, ba dum bum! Leon: 05:26 Yeah, we'll be here all week folks. So the thing about deadbolts is that it is way of avoiding, I guess, avoiding risk. It's a deterrent. It's not a protection. I saw some statistics recently that said, unless there was something specifically in your house that that individual wants - you have a Renoir, or a priceless Monet painting, or something like that - then they're just looking for what can get quickly and easily and a deadbolt is absolutely an effective deterrent because breaking a window is too risky and too loud and too noticeable. And if the door can't be easily opened, they'll move on to the next house or structure, where the pickings are easier. Or they'll walk around the house. And I've seen the statistics in neighborhoods where I've lived, that's occurred. Where they tried the front door, they tried the side door, they went around to the back door and "oops!". That one didn't have [a deadbolt. because], "who would go to the back door?!?" Everybody who wants to get in your house would go around to the back door. YOU go around to the back door right when the front... So everyone goes around. So having a dead-bolted system on all of your doors is the most effective deterrent to that. But I think we've gotten a little off topic, you know, in terms of Notre Dame. So I think we've defined redundancy, high availability, disaster recovery, risk mitigation... but what they're talking about, what they talked about in this whole, "first save lives and then save the art, and then save the...", you know, that's different. Josh: 07:05 Yeah, it is, isn't it? Because they almost - well not almost, they gave a priority to specific items. Right? And I appreciate the fact that they said "save lives," lives are irreplaceable. So..., and there are things, there are some beautiful things in that cathedral that were also irreplaceable. Right. But you know, to their credit, human lives come first. Leon: 07:31 Right. And, and I think that that's a pretty obvious one. After that though, taking the priority of lives, then art, and then, um, sorry I'm going back and looking at it... right. "Save the people, save the art, save the altar, save the furniture, then focus on the structure." So, you know, why did the roof, you know, get so hot it melted? Because it was just not part of the protocol... They hadn't gotten to that part of the protocol yet. And also what was said later was that not only is that protocol in place for overall, but it's in place room by room. Josh: 08:06 Oh, interesting. Leon: 08:09 I think there's an order of which rooms they tried to get to first. Again, looking for people. Once they knew all the people were safe throughout the structure, then they were going to specific rooms and looking for specific things to make sure that they could get those out before they moved on to the next category or even the next room. So I find it all fascinating. But the other thing is, do we do that in IT? Do we set up a protocol for which things we save first? Josh: 08:42 You know, I'm thinking back and I don't recall ever having a, "Howell moment" and by Howell I'm referencing Gilligan's island and the Howells and the, "Oh deah save the furniture first!" you know, Leon: 08:58 Save money, save the money! Josh: 09:01 Yeah. I don't know that we've ever had one of those situations. Now, I will say though, we've taken risk mitigation efforts. Back in the days of doing tape backups, you would keep.. now if someone here isn't, you should, but you keep your backups offsite, you would move them to iron mountain and other similar facilities. Leon: 09:26 Well, and, and bringing it forward a little bit, the 3-2-1 policy for backups, which is you have to have three separate backups, physically discrete backups, on at least two different kinds of media, with one of them being offsite. And offsite can be cloud, that's okay. But you know, 3-2-1" three backups to different media, at least two different media. One that is not where you are. So I would say that there is an order, but I think it's almost so self evident that we don't bother elaborating on it, which is: Save the data first. Josh: 09:59 Oh absolutely. Leon: 10:00 Yeah. So data in... Okay, and we're not talking about a fire in the data center, which changes the nature of everything. But you know, the first thing is save the data. The data equals lives in the Notre Dame protocol. If we, if we want to say it that way. And maybe the application is, you know, art, if we want to think of it that way, like the next thing. Once we know the data is secure, then save the applications, make sure, and by save I mean make sure the application can keep running, post disaster, post outage, whatever that is. So, we're both network folks and, we'll say "the network has gone down," All right? The main circuit out to the Internet, to our customers, whatever that circuits gone down. So what's the first thing? Let's make sure the data wasn't corrupted. Now, we might make sure that that happened before the outage by making sure that the system of rights is, you know, won't get caught in the middle of something that we're doing. Whether it's the particular kind of logging on the database or what have you, that those things are taken care of. But make sure the data's fine. Then make sure the application can get out to... "the signal must flow." The signal has to keep going. So can make sure the application is okay. Maybe the next thing in an IT version of that protocol... Uh, I don't know what would it be? Josh: 11:32 So, you know, we've talked about keeping the data, we've talked about getting the application out there. Then it's, "can I get the people who need to be connected to it, connected to it." So one of the things when you have a major disaster, is you're often worried about addressing your largest customers and getting them back. But maybe you've got a remote workers and you don't have the VPN, so they're not going to be terminating in your, your new data center. Or swinging those circuits, those VPN tunnels from your original data center to your new data center. Maybe that wasn't part of your disaster recovery plan. So all of those things I think that's the, "Okay, now, now go get all the bits that make the, make your application experience comfortable. And again, I'm a remote worker, you're remote worker. So being able to connect and provide the support to the business is very important. Leon: 12:32 And I can get behind that in terms of, like, we're the furniture. Josh: 12:34 Yeah. I mean we've been sat on before. It's all right. Leon: 12:39 Right. Sat on, stepped on, brushed aside, Josh: 12:43 and knocked over. Leon: 12:43 Yeah. Right. Yeah, sure. And I think the structure is, it literally that, it's the organizational structure. Make sure... but that's last because it's the thing that can be rebuilt easiest. The other thing about the Paris, the Notre Dame issue was the other comment: They knew it could happen and by that they knew it would happen again because Notre Dame was trashed back in the French Revolution or "The Terror" as someone referred to it. But the thing that was interesting was they weren't making any meaningful changes to Notre Dame even though it had happened before, and they knew it could happen again. And again, I find this fascinating. I've talked and written before about black swans in IT. You know, that really big event where "the application crashed and we couldn't sell widgets to our customers and we lost blah, blah, thousands of dollars." And you know, all that stuff. "And now we need to make sure that never happens again!" Okay. Yeah. But it was a meteor falling on the earth. I can't... why are we spending time even talking about it? And yet businesses spend lots and lots of time trying to protect themselves from the next Black Swan, which is going to look just like the last Black Swan, even though that one is a black swan because it was unpredictable. So why would they not make meaningful changes? Josh: 14:09 So, I wonder about that, right? Like why would we not make meaningful changes when we know that something has happened? And I think you've nailed it there. These are black swan events. The chances that, the realistic chances of "The Terror" happening again, were reasonably small in the grand scheme of things. They also knew that the cathedral itself, although it is iconic, it can be rebuilt. So get the things that will go into the new building and in the new building will have new designs. So here, a tale from Mormonism. The Salt Lake Temple was one of the first buildings that was built in the Salt Lake Valley - major building that was built in the Salt Lake Valley after the Mormons moved there from Nauvoo. And when they got there, they built this temple out of stone that was quarried from the nearby quarries. That temple has stood the test of time. It's, it's been there for, uh, geez, I don't even know how many years. Well over a hundred years at this point. They are shutting the temple down in the center of Salt Lake because they are going to make some changes. They're going to redo the foundation, which at one point had cracked, and then they had to tear it out well before the temple was finished and then put it back in and then finish the temple. But they're going to protect the temple from seismic events. And not that, not that there's ever been a major earthquake in Utah, but you know, there could be, and it's hard to take such a landmark off the grid. People literally from around the world to see that that temple and downtown Salt Lake. So I imagine those changes to the Notre Dame cathedral would have been equally... uh, no, let me rephrase that. They would have been more impactful to a tourism around that facility and the worship services that go on in there. Leon: 16:21 So, yeah, not that Notre Dame doesn't undergo renovations. In fact, this all occurred during a renovation. They certainly were renovating. I just, I wonder about, why not a sprinkler system or whatever. Although, as I sit there and I say it to myself, again, working in IT, well, why don't we put sprinkler systems in our data center? Oh, that's right. That's why we don't do that. And you know, the art, the paintings, the whatever, you know, maybe Josh: 16:51 The servers Leon: 16:52 The servers. Yeah. The wiring, the electricity. A water suppression system would probably be be more damaging than not, than the fire, which I guess people feel that they can outrun. And they did, in large part. You know, they really did. And also that the next step up, a halon system is simply not possible in a structure the size of Notre Dame. Josh: 17:27 I think the key here, though, is don't make any changes because once you make changes, you introduce variables that you can't control. Like really, "no deploy Fridays"? They're a thing. I mean, they should be a thing. Leon: 17:39 So I hear that, although I think that Charity Majors, from Honeycomb.io, is on a campaign for getting rid of that. But... Josh: 17:48 I'm just going say she was the one I was thinking about when I said that, I was thinking "Charity is totally going to kill me." Leon: 17:53 But I will say also that she is presupposing that there is a vastly different architecture in place than A) the kind of structure that Notre Dame is; and B) the kind of day to day small, medium, even large size businesses, but sort of the, the monolithic businesses that we, you and I, are used to working in, I think that she's presupposing that's not the case. Josh: 18:21 Most definitely not. Right. I think if the equivalent of a of honeycomb in architecture would be something akin to.... Boy, I can't even, I I have no idea. I'm like what, what would change as often as an environment monitored by honeycomb? Leon: 18:43 Yeah. So neither one of us is architect enough to come up with a good analogy, but... Josh: 18:50 I have one!! Leon: 18:51 Oh, go ahead. Josh: 18:51 What about a 3-d printed house, one of those ones you can build in a day that like puts the concrete down? I think if you had something like that, Leon: 19:01 ...if that was the case then you wouldn't worry about you. Yeah. You'd deploy changes all the time because you just reprint your plans, right? Josh: 19:09 "Oh honey, I think we're going to put an addition on this afternoon." "Okay. Hit print." All right. There we go. So Honeycomb is like a 3-D printed house. Leon: 19:20 There we go. I'm going to tweet that and see how quickly Charity jumps on there to tell us "erm, no!" Okay. Um, Josh: 19:30 I have a question. You mentioned to me, when we were talking about this episode, about this comment about the "long now in action" and how that resonated with you. Tell me only, what was it about that phrase "the long now?" Leon: 19:45 I loved the idea - and just to put it in context from the tweet (and we'll have it in the notes from the show.) But the original comment, "They know what can be rebuilt and what can't." (I'd said that before) "...the protocol has been in place since the last time the cathedral was destroyed. Sacked during the French Revolution. The steeple and beams supporting it are 160 years old. And oaks for new beans await at Versailles, the grown replacement for oaks to rebuild after the revolution. This is the long now in action. It's what happens when you maintain civilization." So a few more pieces here about why the protocol is in place and how they do it. They actually do have a sense of disaster recovery. They're growing it! There are trees. And in the thread of the tweet that we quoted, the gentleman who tweeted it posted pictures of Versailles with the oaks that have been grown to replace pieces. Now, of course that's also meant to replace pieces that just wear out after a while, or become decayed or something like that. But the entire idea is that they have their disaster recovery. They have their replacement process in place. But the idea of calling it "the long now" - I think in American we call it the long game, right? But the long game has a whole different flavor than "the long now." The long now means that life is happening - now. We are in it - now. But I'm not just looking at this moment. I'm not living for just this moment. I'm living for this moment, and also to ensure that every other moment is able to be sustained or maintained like it. That my children will experience THIS now. They will walk into iconic structures like Notre Dame and have the same experience I'm having in in large part, if not completely. So I just like that. And from an IT perspective, I think that we would do well if we could build in awareness of the long now - and by the way, which things don't need it. Which aspects of our architecture really are momentary and shouldn't be given the "long now" treatment, like Y2K is a great example of not doing that. You're not thinking about the long now, and you're not building in obsolescence into your code to say, "No! At the end of five years, this has to go away. It has to, we have to do something else with it." So that's the opposite of it. I just, I was just enchanted with both the terminology and everything poetically that seemed to be wrapped in with it. Josh: 22:31 Yeah. And, and as I, as I've listened to you wax eloquent about that idea, I do think that that is it. That is really an enchanting idea. Maybe to make it a little more base and brutish. It's that whole argument of pets versus cattle. And I think Netflix was one of the first companies to really push that idea. Don't get so attached to your tech that you can't kill it off. Right? We've got this dog, her name is Mabel. She's a Boston terrier. She's the purebred. And she is literally the most expensive gift I have ever purchased for my wife. Not because she was expensive to buy. But in the first year of her life, she is undergone close to $4,500 in surgery because apparently Boston's have bad knees. Who would have known?? And so for my pets, for this pet in particular, we're willing to literally move heaven and earth to make sure that she's comfortable. Right. But I also enjoy eating cows and I would not move heaven and earth to save a cow. Leon: 23:47 You might spend extra for a really tasty cow, but that's a very different thing. So I have long said both in IT context and also in my home that it's not the cost of the puppy that's gonna get ya. It's the cost of feeding the puppy. Josh: 24:02 Children too, actually. Leon: 24:04 Yeah. Well that's, it's all of them. Right. Iit's like "but you know the puppy's free!" No, it's not. It's not buying the puppy, it's feeding the puppy. And I think that again in IT, we would be well served to remember which of our projects, which of our architectural choices, which of our things that we do during the day, which of our activities, are cattle and can be really sort of thoughtlessly left to the side. And which of them are pets. Cause I'm not gonna say that all of it is cattle. Not, not everything in it can be treated like cattle. We want to do a certain level of commoditization, but it's always gotta be the things that are intrinsically not valuable that, that we can change it. Another corollary in the Dev ops mindset that, since you've brought up Netflix. Netflix is named, but also, uh, other companies are referenced in a book called "The Phoenix Project." And the Phoenix project also mentions this thing called Disaster Kata. Now a kata in karate terms is simply a set of actions that you take, and you do them over and over and over again until they just become muscle memory. And so they do disaster recovery or emergency or chaos kata. So they practice being in trouble and getting themselves out of it when it's not really an actual problem. So that when there's a real problem, you have that muscle memory, you jump into the situation. And that's true of military training. That's true of true disaster responders. They do the same thing. They practice certain behaviors, so that they don't have to think really hard about them when they come. And I think that we see this in the Notre Dame cathedral experience also. Is that they had done their kata. They had figured out the protocol and practiced it or talked through it so they knew what they were doing. And this was an example of it. And again, we in IT would be well served to think about which types of failures, which types of disasters and recovery actions we would be well served to practice beforehand. You talked about backups a little bit ago, you know, practice your restores. Otherwise you have what has become affectionately known as "Schrodinger's backup." The backup is both there and possibly not there, and you won't know whether it's there until you try to restore it. And if it's at the worst possible time and the answer is "the cat in the box is dead," then you're going to have a problem. Josh: 26:42 What you have is you have a branding problem. If you don't know if your backups are there or not there, what you really have are "quantum backups!" You won't know what state they're in until you observe them. So just as long as you don't observe it, then you can assume that they're there. Right? Leon: 26:58 Um, that's, I, I'm, Josh: 27:00 I'm trademarking that too late. Leon: 27:02 That's fine. Quantum backup. It just makes it sound far more exciting and sophisticated, and also then management may want to buy more of it. "Don't check it. Don't check it! You'll let the quantum state out! That's we're paying for. Josh: 27:18 I love it. See, were gonna be millionaires. Millionaires! Leon: 27:21 We are, but we're also not going to be able to show her face in IT conferences ever. "THERE THEY ARE!! GO GET THEM!" All right. So I want to turn this around to the religious perspective and talk about you know, this idea of disaster recovery, this idea of, what we protect and what we don't protect. Now you talked about how the Mormon temple is being restructured because clearly they don't want to lose it. They can't 3-D print the temple in Salt Lake City. So yeah. So they're not gonna even try to do that. And also they know the hit to the community that it would represent if something bad happened to it. Josh: 28:03 And historically, the LDS church has been ransacked right? When they were in Kirtland, the Kirtland temple was destroyed. It was literally burned with, well, I won't say burned to the ground, but it was, it was burned and desecrated. So there's, there is a history in Mormonism, even though it's a relatively new religion from a religion perspective, you know, founded in 1830 of having, it's it's sacred objects desecrated by people who were against them. Leon: 28:35 Right? Okay. So, so in terms of disaster recovery - and again, we'll presume that every church and every synagogue and every temple of whichever stripe or flavor we're talking about, has their own structural, organizational protocol for what to do if the building is on fire - if that happens. But there's other things that had been disaster and disaster recovery. So there's two I'm thinking of, one big and one small. And the big one was the destruction of The Temple (capital letters), The Temple in Jerusalem. And not only was it the building that got destroyed, not only was it the entire organization of the priesthood that was effectively demolished with the loss of the temple and the single focal point of sacrifice, but the religion - Judaism itself - took a hit because at the time Judaism was a sacrifice based religion that, you know, when you wanted to say, "I'm sorry" or "I messed up" or "thank you", the method that you did that through was to go to The Temple, and bring a sacrifice, and the priest would sacrifice on the altar either all or in part, and you would either eat some of it in celebration or not. And there's all sorts of wonderful flavors of that. But you couldn't go do that in your backyard. That was absolutely not an okay thing to do for a variety of reasons that would take too long to go over. There's some wonderful videos that I might link to in the show notes for this episode. But what's Judaism going to do now? The Temple's gone. There's no longer away to say I'm sorry or I messed up or thank you or I'm happy. There's no longer a way to do that. So does the, does the religion just disappear? No. There was a pivot. First of all, the location moved from a Jerusalem to a town of Yavne. And also what happened was a philosophical change that instead of sacrifices on an altar, it became sacrifices of the heart. That prayer took the place of the sacrifice. First and very, very literally by reading the laws of sacrifice. It was analogous to doing the sacrifice. And so every morning in morning prayers, still to this day, Orthodox Jews will read through those laws of sacrifice and the process and the protocol to do it as a way of metaphorically or philosophically saying this is still alive. But also prayer itself. Also, everybody's home has become an altar that on Shabbat, that Sabbath offering that we bring the two loaves of bread and the wine and everything has taken the place of it. So the religion was able to pivot from a very visceral, physical experience of divinity and connecting to the divine to a very, I'm going to say, intellectual and mental connection. And that was a big change. And for the religion to be able to do that was really remarkable. Not to have people just say, "Oh, well yeah, the building's gone. Yeah, that's it. I guess I'm going to be a, you know, I dunno, a pastafarian or, you know, whatever. I'm not trying to offend any pastafarians. The giant invisible spaghetti monster is a fantastic being if or if it does not exist. So that's the big one. The little one though, the little story is actually in the middle of disaster and having this protocol and how it saves more than you expect. So a friend of mine here in Cleveland was telling me a story about his grandfather. His grandfather was a young man in Morocco and, very hilly, you know, a lot of mountains and stuff like that. And they were sort of look in the low lands I guess. And in the spring, you know, the spring melt and the water was coming in. And I guess one of the rivers overran its bed, and the grandfather could hear the water coming at the town, like a flood was coming and he could hear it. And so what do you do? He ran to the synagogue and he grabbed the Torah because you know, that's the thing like, just make sure you have the Torah. Like again, we're not going to worry about the structure. Nobody was in the building, so he grabbed the Torah. Now the thing that you need to understand is: many people have seen a Torah and they see this parchment that is rolled between two scrolls and then covered with a cloth. That is not what a Sephardic - or people from the Middle East, the Spanish country. There, it's in a box. If the scrolls are strung between two poles, but then that's all wrapped in a box itself. A wooden case. So he picks up this case and he realizes he wasn't fast enough. The water is now there. It's coming into the synagogue and it's rising really fast. And he's waiting through this water with this Torah, this huge boxy Torah in his arms trying to get out, and the water just completely sweeps him off his feet and now he's going down the street, you know, still holding onto the Torah. Which is a big wooden box. That holds air inside. And so he's holding it and now the Torah is holding him up. He's floating down the water, this, this deluge holding on for dear life, both metaphorically and physically to this Torah that is keeping him afloat. And it saved him. And on top of it there's a saying that many people say in Hebrew "etz chayim hi lamancha zikim ba" - "It's a tree of life to those who hold fast to it." And that story was passed down generation by generation that in making sure he followed this protocol, making sure he saved that thing, that one artifact, made sure that he was able to survive also. Josh: 35:11 Thanks for making time for us this week. To hear more of Technically Religious, visit our website, https://technicallyreligious.com, where you can find our other episodes, leave us ideas for future discussions, and connect with us on social media. Leon: 35:24 We didn't start the fire, Josh: 35:26 ...but you can be damn sure we're going to be asked to pull an all nighter to fight it.  

What is a green car?  It might surprise you. So be sure to listen in today. Today I will unpack the problems with our new junior Senator Maggie Hassan. Yea, she hired someone who stole gigabytes of high-value data. What do you think of Facial recognition?  Well, I will discuss some of the problems with the FBI facial recognition program. WiFi? Is it bad for your health? I will talk about what a new study out of the Czech Republic found.   If you think that by going to the cloud, your business is going to be safe, you have another thing coming to you. I will explain why in today's show. Amazon? Wow, I can't believe they're doing this with books. If you have not heard about this, listen in. There are a number of mental health apps available for your tablets and smartphones. Do you know what data they share?  It may surprise you. For all this and more tech tips, news, and updates visit - CraigPeterson.com --- Transcript: Below is a rush transcript of this segment; it might contain errors. Airing date: 04/27/2019 Driving A Tesla Increases CO2 Emissions - Sen Hassan Aid Stole Gigabytes Of Data Craig Peterson 0:03  Hi everybody. Craig Peterson here. We're about to get started with another one of our Saturday shows heard every Saturday morning here on these iHeart Radio broadcast channels. Yes, terrestrial radio. And I also have it out online. You can find it all at http://Craig Peterson.com. Well, today we are going to be covering a couple of articles that I think might be a bit of a surprise to you. One of them has to do with green cars. Now, if you've known me for a long time, you know that green cars aren't green. But but there's a study out we're going to talk about that yet another study, remember the one that said that the Hummer H2 was actually, no it was the H1 was actually greener than the Toyota Prius, while the new study up right here in New Hampshire, that's where I'm located Senator Hassan, her aid, stole gigabytes of high-value data. So we'll talk about that. And what happens when a business or in this case a government agency, has one of their employees go rogue? The FBI facial recognition program is under fire. WiFi? Is it bad for your health? A new study out and a very interesting article from the Czech Republic on that. If you think that by going to the cloud, your business is going to be safe. You have another thing coming to you. New research out on that. Amazon? Wow, I can't believe they're doing this with books. You might have heard about this with 1984 that George Orwell book a little while ago. Well, there's a whole lot here we're going to talk about. And mental health apps, and what data are they actually sharing. So here we go with all of our news that's fit for today. Craig 2:02 So first up today, let's talk about driving your Tesla. Now they are cool. And I had a really interesting discussion with one of my daughters. She lives in Norway right now. She's running a huge project, autonomous ships for Kongsberg, which is just a huge shipping company. They well they make the controls and stuff for shipping. They just bought Rolls Royce marine here a few months back. And I was talking to her about Teslas because electric cars get a special subsidy in Norway. Now, here in the US, Tesla has already reached the 200,000 car mark. And the idea behind this was that they would provide, the federal government would provide extra money to help subsidize the purchase of electric cars, not just Teslas. But once they hit the 200,000 car mark, that subsidy would go away. And some of the Democrats in Congress are pretty busy right now trying to figure out how can they re-establish that deal, get that deal going again. And they may end up doing that. Well in Norway, they have similar things where the government is subsidizing electric vehicles, and to a very large point, because in Norway, right away, you don't have to pay the sales tax, which is 25% sales tax. Imagine that. And then it's a VAT, too. So it's not just the sales tax when you buy it, but there's sales tax every time a product changes hands, from manufacturing parts through distribution through the final retailer, and then you. So things are just crazy expensive there. And they have a great free market economy. Don't get me wrong, they are not a socialist country. None of the Scandinavian countries are socialist, but they are very heavily taxed and they do have a lot of government programs. So they were talking about getting rid of this subsidy, effectively a subsidy for electric cars, Tesla stock went down. And there's a lot of reasons it goes up and down, right? Well, here in the US what's the reason everybody seems to be giving for an electric car. Why do they want these electric vehicles? What's the big deal? Why does it matter? Well, here in the US, they're telling us this story that while it's more green, there's less carbon that goes into the atmosphere. And it's just it's a wonderful thing. And every Friday night, we get together all of us electric car owners, and we lock arms and we sing Kumbaya, right? And it's all because it's green. They're just wonderful vehicles. And you know that there's obviously some miss truths to that, let me put it that way. And in fact, there are there, it's just not true. And that's what the studies showing. In Norway, they're much more saying about this. And Norway, they're saying, hey, yeah, that these electric cars are not more green. But what we're trying to do is prevent the pollution in our environment, in our environment here in Norway. So we don't want these cars to, to be emitting all of this nastiness and trucks and things. We just want electric vehicles, we don't care that they're made in China and Japan, and that shipped all over, we don't care about the pollution they're causing worldwide and the fact that the recycling this stuff. It's just it's hazardous, right. But what we care about is we have clean air. Now, that to me, is a legitimate argument. I think there are legitimate arguments might be its cool technology. And the other argument might well be that you know, the air here tends to be a little bit cleaner. Now, of course, they're dumping all of the crap that there, their byproducts making these batteries in these cars. They're dumping them in the ocean in China and into the air and eventually gets here, all of this plastic in the ocean that's coming from these third world countries and communist countries that just don't care about it. Right. So this article is absolutely fascinating. And it's saying that driving a Tesla results in more CO2 than our Mercedes diesel does. So think about that for a minute. Diesel's have gotten a really bad name lately, because of some cheating that was done on an emissions test. Now, I put that cheating in air quotes, you saw that, right? If you're watching this http://CraigPeterson.com/YouTube. You saw me do that? Well, the reason I do that is the diesel's are it's a different type of emission. And when the engine is cold, they run different currently, then when the engine is warm, or when it's hot. And some of these tests that were being done by our EPA and the European Union, don't really give the diesel vehicles credit. And you know, Europe, if you've been there, if you've rented a car, even if you were driven around, you notice most of the cars were diesel, because, in fact, a lot of the gases that are emitted by the vehicles, it's better if it's diesel, it washes down more quickly out of the atmosphere. But they're worried about the nitrous oxide and some other things that can cause problems for some people. So you know, hey, I get that. So hydrogen methane technology that is being used right now in the new diesel's has made a huge, huge difference. So if you look at this a little bit closer here, I'm going to pull this article right up on the desk area go see now you can see it on YouTube on http://CraigPeterson.com/YouTube. Craig 8:02 It's touted as a zero-emission vehicle. Now we're talking about the Tesla Model 3, but in actuality, it creates more carbon dioxide dumped more into the air than a comparable diesel-powered car. And it's I love this article, when the CO2 emissions from the battery productions included, electric cars like Teslas are, in the best case slightly higher. We're talking about CO2 emissions here, in the best case, Teslas have slightly higher emissions of CO2 then a diesel engine, and our otherwise much higher and this is from a German Think Tank. And it's just absolutely fascinating here Daily Caller article that we're quoting from, and I love this picture they have of the Model 3 in the car show here in Toronto. So they looked electric car production in Germany, it's heavily reliant on coal power, we're in the US, of course, we burn coal, we burn wood, we have things that the left really hates, like, heaven forbid, we have nuclear power, which is course, frankly, the cleanest of all. And if the Nuclear Regulatory Commission, we get off of their hands, and use some of this new nuclear technology that was invented here, 30 years ago, we would be in incredible shape, there'd be almost no nuclear waste at all, because we can re-burn it and certain types of reactors and things but people just got completely scared about it. California is requiring automakers to cut greenhouse gas emissions in cars, producing lower emission vehicles buying credits, which is making people like Al Gore very rich right? At the federal level, the US government's giving you a $7500 per electric vehicle tax break. It's it just goes on and on. A study here from the University of Cologne, talking about what they found in responsible energy, which forgets it, right, and who wants responsible energy policies, it's just not out there right now. But a study released to 2018 also found that driving electric cars might come with higher emissions of diesel vehicles, largely because of the lithium-ion production. For those that are unaware. This lithium most of its harvested in Quebec, NASA uses the area for miles, hundreds of square miles around the lithium battery mine, if you will. NASA uses it for testing lunar landings because there is no life at all. And then that is shipped off over to China for pre-processing and shipped to Japan, to turn it into a type of foam, is shipped back to China to finalize the battery components, shipped back to the US to be installed in the Tesla. Think about all of the carbon dioxides from that. A Manhattan Institute study from Tony teen found that putting more electric cars on the road would likely increase emissions compared to internal combustion engine vehicles. Now, you know that I have a libertarian band. So part of my dislike of this whole thing is that you know, come on people bottom line. Why should the government be the one that's deciding that's what the next best technology is going to be? Does that make any sense to you really doesn't make any sense that the government should be deciding, hey, listen, we're going to bet your tax money on electric vehicles rather than hydrogen fuel cells or some of these other technologies that might win. Again, let the private sector decide. And this is yet another area that our government has become socialist with a government trying to control the means production, the types of production, trying to incentivize it, etc, etc, right? Stuff that I obviously just don't agree with. But I guess you guys already know that. Right? Okay. Craig 12:12 So next up, let's see if I can make this work here for YouTube. That's http://CraigPeterson.com/YouTube, I think it was this key combination. That didn't work. Yeah, I'm doing something wrong. So what I'm going to do is this, because I'm pretty sure that will work. Yes, there you go. Okay, so now you can see the article. This is from the Daily Caller, this is former senator has a son from New Hampshire, you know who she is what her one of her former aides now is in very, very much trouble. Now we know the Democrats have been, I'm going to say it, I'm going to say it out. Because this is true. They have been stupid when it comes to their IT people, they have not hired, in most cases, the people they should have hired, and we got a listener out there. So hat tip to Guy if you're listening, who have decided that because I keep talking about these problems with security, that he's going to take up a career in security. So he signed up for this six-month course, kind of getting started in cybersecurity. Once he's done with that, it'll take a year or so of him having real-life experience in it, and then he'll be really quite good. But man alive here, they missed all kinds of red flags about what this guy was doing. But here's the bottom line. This is a plea agreement that he did sign apparently extraordinary, extensive data theft scheme is what it was called. He installed keylogging devices that picked up every keystroke on these machines. So a keylogger, in case you're not aware, if you're using a keyboard, with a USB cable, and then that USB cable plugs into the back of your computer, as someone can insert on the back of that computer, one of these keyloggers and the way this keylogger ends up working is that you're typing your keys, and they're all being intercepted by this little USB device. So you might want to right away, especially if you are democrat senator, apparently, you might want to right away go and check the back of your computer and see if there if your keyboard is plugged in directly. Now, you know, if you watch for a while I use Macs, right? So here's an example of the mouse I use. And on the Mac, it's Bluetooth wireless, but it also has available here, a USB port, right? It's actually one of Apple's proprietary port. And I have the also the keyboard here. This is what I'm using on my iMac, in fact, to control the video that we're creating for YouTube on that iMac. So that's what that's all about right there. Okay, and that was really nice. It's really handy. But what Apple does is everything is super-encrypted. In fact, in order for me to configure this trackpad to my Mac, I have to plug it in via cable. It does some handshaking it automatically configured the iMac for this trackpad or this keyboard. Same things true for laptops of using external devices. So Apple has gone the extra extra mile. Craig 15:39 If you're using a regular Bluetooth keyboard like here's my other computer here. This is a standard older Mac, keyboard, and mouse I have it in the mount. So it's all together. But this uses regular Bluetooth and regular Bluetooth has encryption as well. So typically, generally speaking, your Bluetooth is going to be safer than using a wired keyboard or wired mouse because you can install these keyloggers right so that's kind of what I was getting at here. Craig 16:16  So back to our friend here at senator Hassan's office. What she did is or he did I should say is he installed these keyloggers so they usually have to come back to get back keylogger in order to read it. But remember, if you're typing on your computer, what are you typing? Oh, a username and a password. And usually, those are pretty well identifiable pretty easily identifiable. So apparently, Jackson Cosko worked with an unnamed accomplice and other Hassan employee who reportedly lent him a key that he used to enter the office at night and who allegedly tried to destroy evidence for him after the fact. So Cosko accepted responsibility for the events revealed by federal prosecutors in court last Friday. Apparently was doing it from July and October. But he really did a lot more than that. It kind of goes on here in this article from the Daily Caller, he sneaked into her office, reportedly multiple times at night gathered dozens of gigabytes of data, including usernames and passwords belonging to Senate employees, okay, like really come on guys. Tens of thousands of emails, internal documents, credit card information blog, the Senate employee social security numbers, blah, blah, blah. So be careful out there. These IT people are not what they appear to be in many cases. And of course, the huge thing with the Democrats. And I couldn't believe how they responded when it was disclosed that Wasserman Schultz's IT people had had just committed me incredible crimes all the way across the board. And she was throwing the tantrum or when they tried to investigate. In fact, I don't think the FBI ever got to fully investigate this thing. Craig 18:10  So anyhow, keep an eye on your IT people. Make sure you know who they are. Make sure they're of good character. It's easy enough to do basic background check nowadays, you can get them done for 20, 30 bucks online, just check in public record and make sure they look okay. Okay. And it's difficult. I get it. It's difficult to hire the right person. because, frankly, how do you know who the right person is? What do you know about IT? What do you know about security, it's difficult, you got to find somebody that's been in a long time. Craig 18:43  Alright, so next up, let's talk about this FBI problem here. This is from NextGov.com. I'll put it up on my screen here http://CraigPeterson.com/YouTube. Of course, you guys the audio guys listen to the podcast. And here on iHeart Radio as well. You guys are my primary audience. Okay. But if you want to see some of these articles, I put them up here on the screen. But this is huge. The FBI reportedly has ignored, for the most part, the GAO, the Government Accountability Offices concerned over its use of facial recognition technology, in criminal investigations, its new technology, its kinda neat. They can scan all kinds of public cameras and photos as well as records, the FBI has to try and find suspects and close cases. That part's fine. But apparently, what they've been doing is they're pulling from a database of more than 30 million mug shots and other photos. And while they're doing this, they're looking for matches, right? Doesn't that make sense? And they're trying to find the matches, they're trying to get the right people, but they get bad matches, they get mismatches with people who were nowhere in the area. Okay, I get that. You figure it out, right, and you take care of it. But apparently what they've been doing is they have been going after them and prosecuting and trying to get convictions. The auditors and the GAO recommended that the FBI tests the accuracy of these things at least once a year, make improvements, etc, that are very interesting. So if you're charged nowadays by the FBI or local prosecutor, what's the right thing to do? Because you weren't in the area. You didn't do it. Are they going to convict you on bad evidence now because they trust the computer so much? I don't know. Craig 20:49   Okay, so next up from the TechRepublic, we got an article about WiFi, how many people complain about WiFi saying it's bad for our health? Well, another study out and I've been saying this for a long time. And man that I feel bad one time I was keynoting at an annual event for it was for a bank. And I was their keynote speaker for their annual shareholder's meeting and talked about the future of technology. Where it's going? What's happening? And a lady came up to me and said, so what do you think about radiation from phones, from cell phones? And I said, well, you know, I've been an advanced class amateur radio operator for many, many decades. I have had a lot of radiation from these radios exposed to me, I've never had anything happen. And most of the studies that have been done about ham radio operators have said, hey, there's nothing definitive about a problem. So bottom line, you know, doesn't really matter. It's not a big deal, that you have this happening. And then she said, you know, you can see the tears welling up in her eyes. And she says, Well, I think it was her husband had been diagnosed with cancer. And they said that it was because he had the phone up to his head all the time using it at work. And that work should be paying for all this medical treatment and, and pain and suffering and stuff. And man made me feel really bad. But the truth is, there are no strong ties between these various types of radiation. And the biggest problem I think people have is a misunderstanding. We call it radiation. But this isn't x rays. This isn't, you know, the radiation you get from outer space, it is non-ionizing radiation. And radiation from a scientific definition is just energy moving through space, it's not a big deal. So these new WiFi devices that are going to be rolled out all over the country for 5G, they're going to be everywhere. And that's one of the reasons you can get such high data rates. They are everywhere. And so you're going to be close to them. Even mount them on our houses, on telephone poles are going to be just everywhere. But the RF signals, these radio frequency signals that are generated by WiFi, by Bluetooth, by your phones, in any device that's sold legally in the US is tested. And you know, I'm not one for trusting government testing necessarily, right. But in reality, the safety limits are just incredible. You know, you're talking about 500 milliwatts, and I have routinely been transmitting at 50 watts, which is a lot more power, and I haven't experienced any problems and, and 100 watts on some of the HF bands and even higher. So studies just, there was one of University of Barcelona, looking at RF exposure of children, ages 8 to 18 in Europe over three day period, WiFi represented 4% of total RF exposure. 62% of the RF exposure came from cellular base stations. 23% from broadcast TV and radio. And 10% from a nearby cell phone. So the exposure is approximate point .001% of that of the safety limits imposed by the European Commission, which is even tighter than here in the US. So back to this article, again, TechRepublican on http://CraigPeterson.com. You'll see it. WiFi is just not bad for your health. Craig 24:45 So we're going to whip through a couple more here pretty quickly because we only have a couple of minutes left. If you think that switching over to cloud services is going to make you safe. I'm afraid there's another thing coming for you. Because right now cloud services are the Wild West. And various cloud services have various amounts of safety with them, if you will, they have really kind of an abysmal record. You think about all of these huge data breaches that have happened on the cloud recently. And it's incredible, like 2 billion records found on the cloud from one of these cloud services providers just in the last couple of months. So just because you're using Office 365, or you're using some other type of cloud services, Salesforce.com, etc, does not mean it's safe. Now, I'm not saying that they aren't relatively safe, but there's a new study out. And this is from the global phish report from Avanan. And they looked at 55 million emails sent to Microsoft Office 365 and Google G Suite account. Those are the big guys. If you have an email for your business, you're probably either with Office 365, or Google G Suite. And they found roughly 1% of all messages or phishing threats that use malicious attachments or links. And of those, 25% that were marked safe by the Exchange Online protection built into Office 365. And delivered to us. So just a little word of warning there. Just because you're using the cloud service does not mean that your emails are safe. Craig 26:31 I've got to bring this one up too. Amazon, they are burning books. And I don't know what to do about this. You know, remember Jeff Bezos said that he was going to be you know, open, they sell any books, he wanted the exchange of ideas, which is, of course, a very libertarian classic liberal way of doing things. But now apparently he is removing books from the store. We know already that he has removed books from people's iPads etc. So in February this year, they banned a number of books from white identitarian Jared Taylor, a book called The White Nationalist Manifesto by Greg Johnson. You may completely disagree with these guys. Right. But again, they need to have their voices out there as part of the public debate. They also banned, had bans on Holocaust revisionists books in 2017, a purge of all books by the controversial pickup blogger and author Daryush Valizadeh, I guess it is. Many others, many others. Amazon's refused, by the way, to take down a book defending pedophilia on first amendment grounds. They have not removed certain books that are up there that are anti-christian, even though there have been complaints about them. So they got to get their act together. Craig 27:57 And if you're using a mental health app, you can see it on my screen here http://CraigPeterson.com/YouTube, be careful out there because of the data they're sharing. Alright, have a great week. I am out of time. We will chat next week and of course during the week as well on my podcasts. http://CraigPeterson.com/iTunes. Take care, everybody. Bye-bye. ---  Related articles: Driving A Tesla Results In More CO2 Than A Mercedes Diesel Car, Study Finds Former NH Sen. Hassan Aide Stole Gigabytes Of ‘High Value’ Data Wi-Fi Is Not Actually Bad For Your Health, Scientists Say FBI’s Facial Recognition Programs Under Fire Over Privacy, Accuracy Concerns Using Cloud Email? Office 365? You’re Not Safe From Phishing Attacks Amazon Has Been On A Digital Book Burning Spree For Months That Mental Health App Might Share Your Data Without Telling You --- More stories and tech updates at: www.craigpeterson.com Don't miss an episode from Craig. Subscribe and give us a rating: www.craigpeterson.com/itunes Follow me on Twitter for the latest in tech at: www.twitter.com/craigpeterson For questions, call or text: 855-385-5553

On this episode of the Healthy Wealthy and Smart Podcast, I welcome Robin Meyers on the show to discuss fear.  Robin Joy Meyers is an international speaker, fear strategist, molecular geneticist and radio show host.  She educates and empowers women who are thought leaders, executives and entrepreneurs. Robin specializes in implementing strategies to harness the positive power of fear to their advantage through executive coaching, workshops, and speaking engagements. In this episode, we discuss: -The science behind the fear response -Why self-awareness is key to harnessing the power of fear -Recognizing the positive and negative side of fear -How Robin transitioned her career throughout different periods in her life -And so much more!   Resources: Robin Meyers Website Robin Meyers Instagram Robin Meyers Twitter Robin Meyers Facebook Robin Meyers LinkedIn   For more information on Robin: Robin Joy Meyers is an international speaker, fear strategist and molecular geneticist. She founded Navigate2Empower to educate and empower women who are thought leaders, executives and entrepreneurs, on how to harness the positive power of fear to their advantage.  Robin specializes in implementing strategies for self-awareness, mindset and leadership through executive coaching, workshops, and speaking engagements. As a molecular geneticist, Robin discovered the TUB36 gene, a gene that affects the wing formation of fruit flies. She is also the host of the popular radio show, Activate Bold Choices, and is best-selling author of “Alone but Not Lonely” and “The Art of Unlearning.”    Read the full transcript below: Karen Litzy:                   00:01                Hey Robin, welcome to the podcast. I am happy to have you on. All right, so we've got a lot to talk about here. Just given your bio, we've got a lot to dive into. So the first thing I am so curious about is what is a molecular geneticist and how did you get into that field? Robin Meyers:                                      Yeah, I have an eclectic background. I know I got into molecular genetics actually really because I didn't get into med school. I thought I was going to go to med school and I didn't get accepted in the states. And of course my parents were like, you're not going out of the country. I was like, okay. Although now looking back could have been fun. So I went to, I got accepted into Case Western reserve in Cleveland, Ohio and sounded like a great program. So I went and became a molecular geneticist down the road. Karen Litzy:                                           And what does a molecular geneticists do exactly? Robin Meyers:                                      You spend quite a lot of time in the lab. I actually was in a lab working with fruit flies. So in a lab with a lot of fruit flies, killed many of them a lot on research. So I was on research specifically looking for genes that had to do with flight. Robin Meyers:              01:34                So lots of DNA work and I'm not talking about, I'm talking old school, so now I'm going to date myself. Old school, 1986 to 89 where you know, the DNA plates were big glass plates that had to be poured. That was the hardest part I think. Karen Litzy:                                           I mean it's pretty amazing because now you know, we hear a lot in the news about women in stem, science, technology, education, medicine. So we hear a lot about women in stem and how the push is to get more women involved in these professions. So you were involved in this profession in a time where I have to think there weren't a lot of women there. Robin Meyers:                                      Well interestingly enough, I never really put that together until recently in my life that maybe I was a pioneer. I don't know. Robin Meyers:              02:34                I was too shy and quiet then to even think about that. But, it's true. There really weren't, and it was really on the forefront because when I graduated it was just the beginning of the human genome project and all of the human genetics. You know, my first job was with the French Anderson Group who was part of that genome project. And one of my companies that I started working for was the first DNA purification columns, like the disposable kind. And it really was on the forefront. So kinda cool. Karen Litzy:                                           No, I think it's amazing. I think that this is the coolest thing. And, and when I was reading through your bio, I feel like, so just for context, Robin and I have known each other for well over a year now, right? Maybe year and a half, two years, I'm not quite sure. But I remember reading her bio thinking, well, I didn't know any of this. Karen Litzy:                   03:28                I didn’t know you discovered a gene. I did not know any of this. And I just think it's like so cool that here you were and I will say a pioneer in the fields of stem. And I just wanted to highlight that for people so that, you know, they know that you’re coming from this sort of, I would think analytical data driven background. Robin Meyers:                                      I really am actually, you know, and it's funny how for me as I developed, I always thought of my science and my master's degree was kind of just a stepping stone into whatever that next step was of my life. But dots do connect, you know, and when you start to own it, you do see these patterns. I did, I discovered a gene. And it's funny, it wasn't until recently, even in the salon when it was like you did what? Robin Meyers:              04:25                And the ironic part is the gene, it's still called TUB36 because it's on the chromosome region of 36 in fruit flies has to deal with the wing formation, for fight or flight for flying like dystrophy and working with fear and that whole concept, it's like, it's just kind of weird and ironic and exciting and just interesting. Karen Litzy:                                           Yeah, it's really interesting. And so let's get into now this other part of your life and your career, which is a fear strategist. So the same question as what is the molecular geneticist I have for what the heck is a fear of strategist. Robin Meyers:                                      So I've taken over owning fear strategy because, you know, I became a coach, you know, after I left my graduate degree and became a wife and a mother and went through that phase of my life, and other jobs, I really started to figure out who I was and finding my own voice and dealing with my own fears and things like that. Robin Meyers:              05:38                And so I worked with women giving themselves permission to look outside the box and working in transitions really. And so I've been every kind of transitional kind of coach to life strategists. And when it comes down to it, as I've owned the molecular genetic side and the science of fear, I was like, I'm a fear strategist. Like really what it is, is being able to understand that fear is real. And I think that's really where my message is right now. Like, if I can get the world to understand the science of fear, that it's not just this thing that should stop us in our tracks. Yes, it's limiting beliefs, but we can work through that. And I think when people hear the science of it and realize that it does work to our advantage, it creates a whole different conversation in this world. Robin Meyers:              06:35                So it makes people stop and say, what is that? Instead of like, you're just another coach. But there is the science. So it kind of for me kind of stirs up the science and to be able to say, let me tell you, let me explain my science background to you. Karen Litzy:                                           Yeah. So let's talk about the science of fear. So what is it about fear? What happens with them? I'm assuming that's what happens within our bodies, when we have that feeling of fear. So could you tell the listeners a little bit more, give us a background on what is the science. Robin Meyers:                                      Okay. So it's totally fascinating. So the science is, you know, our brains so anyone in science will understand this, that you know, our brain is the most complicated organ in our body. Our emotions basically are lit up from different regions of our brains working together in combination and lighting up and igniting. The fear response is in combination of five areas that light up. Robin Meyers:              07:41                And that's the amygdala, the sensory cortex, the Thalamus, the hypothalamus and hippocampus, all those areas. When a fear response comes they have to work together to produce that next step for the fear. Now the interesting thing is as all of that coordinates together, the Amygdala, which is like the size of a cashew, not only decodes your emotions, but it stores the imprint of every fear of every response from pre verbal stages throughout your entire life. Like every single thing, if you think of it like a tattoo, like you keep getting a tattoo with every single thing every fall, every emotion, every emotion associated with fear is another tattoo. And I don't think people actually realize, it's almost like if you could kind of tell me all about your life and actions that have happened. And I could sit there with a stamp, an ink pad, and just stamp a piece of paper and like you could physically see how many imprints you have. Robin Meyers:              08:53                It's fascinating because not only do imprints start storing prior to you even realizing it, and that's more so because our parents impose their imprints of fear on us, but every little thing for the good and the bed. So there's a whole pattern of evolution that happens. Karen Litzy:                                           First of all, I love the metaphor of the tattoo imprinting in the Amygdala. I love that. I'm going to start using that with patients who have chronic and persisting pain. I love it. Thank you. And it takes me back to, you know, as you know, Robin, I have a long history with chronic pain and a lot of that was centered. What kind of made the pain worse or prolonged would be fear avoidance behaviors. So I can't do that. It's going to hurt my neck. I don't want to do that it's going to hurt my neck. Karen Litzy:                   09:55                I can't sleep. It's going to hurt my neck. So now I look back and think of that day when that pain first happened, I woke up and couldn't get out of bed. So much pain. And the thing that I guess I didn't connect until right now was how fearful I was. How fearful I was laying in bed not being able to move. So can you imagine the size of that Tattoo in my amygdala? Robin Meyers:                                      Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So the idea is to take it one step further is to realize what those imprints are and remove the ones that aren't serving you. And you know, that's easier said than done. It's not easy. No, no, no. I'm not saying any of this is easy, but there's some that have been imposed that you really can't put your finger on it. Robin Meyers:              10:52                Right? And then there's some that you've had an accident or something that you can put your finger on it, but it's not serving you. And then there's some deeper wounds that you really have to work through. But if you can start removing the ones that totally aren't serving you and actually work through it so it makes you the more you've worked through it. What I find with my clients, with myself, just people I deal with, it makes you live much more presently and actively and it takes courage. I always say it’s actively moving through the action with the conscious courageous presence because you have to be present and it is, it takes a lot of courage, no doubt. Karen Litzy:                                           And how do you start working through some of these things? Like can you give the listeners, I don't know, one or two tips or exercises that they might be able to start doing today if they realize they have a fear that might be holding them back. Robin Meyers:              11:54                So the biggest thing really is self awareness. It's really taking the time for you to understand who are you and just you forget kind of the noise of what your responsibilities are. If you've got, you know, spouse, dog, kids, whatever stage of life you're in and everyone has a different stage. So, and just to tell your listeners I had three kids and now 22, 24, 27. So I've been through a lot. Trust me. So I get it all. But whatever stage you're at, I only say build in five minutes every morning just to be in your own thoughts. And ask yourself, what do you need? You know, it really does come down to self awareness and saying, these are my non negotiables for me only for me. And you're going to find that you become very aware of people that work in your life, things that work in your life, conversations and what's acceptable. Robin Meyers:              12:57                Once you start doing that, you're able to kind of start peeling away and going after things that have held you back. You know, the other side of this conversation is that our brain, as brilliant as it is and everyone's brain is, is great at keeping us in the patterns that it's been given. So a lot of that is reprogramming and there's ways to actually get into your subconscious and reprogram. But it is reprogramming. So it's baby steps and sometimes it's two steps forward and three steps back. And it's being very gentle with yourself and not beating yourself up and saying, okay, tomorrow's another day, but it's just breaking into a new pattern. Karen Litzy:                                           And those patterns I agree in the brain can be so deeply set, deeply set from childhood into adolescence, into adulthood. Like you said, whenever a stage in life that you're in. Karen Litzy:                   14:01                And you know, again, I go back to this population of people with pain, which is a huge population across the world. It's a $1 billion industry and that's just back pain, forget about every other kind of pain. So I think being able to work with someone to maybe tap into some of these patterns that we have developed, I think can really help people perhaps make sense of some of their pain, help overcome some aspects of that pain. I can say anecdotally from myself, so an n of one that being able to do that for myself was really helpful, I felt was for me the next step that needed to happen. Robin Meyers:                                      I totally agree with you. It's sometimes like those patterns of talking yourself like, but if I get out of bed I might hurt. But if you don't get out of bed and you don't try, will you hurt? What is that risk? Karen Litzy:                   15:13                Looking at the risk reward there. Right, right. Robin Meyers:                                      I'll go back to a story if you don't mind. When I was 11, I think I was 11 I used to ride horses. I don't even know if I was good at it, but I used to ride horses. I had a really bad accident and I broke my back in three places. I ended up being fine. Actually it ended up being a blessing in disguise because I had a horrible scoliosis that they discovered. But I was in a back brace and possible surgeries and you know, initially it was like, is she going to walk? And things like that. It was a nine month recovery, but, and I was 11, so I think it, as much as it affected me, my parents really obviously dealt with it. Robin Meyers:              16:01                Fast forward to my daughter being 10 years old and we lived in the countryside of outside of DC in Virginia where horses are Galore. She wanted to ride horses. I actually didn't think twice about it. It was a local farm. It was around the corner. I would take her, I would watch got her all the safety equipment. My father happened to call me, my mom had already died and my father had called me and didn't call me often. And instead of like, hi, how are you today? He just ripped into me. He just, you know, his, the first thing out of his mouth was, I'm so disappointed. Are you stupid? And I was like, oh well those are triggers to my childhood. Hello father. But when I sat, now when I process it, I understand in a way where he was coming from and I said, she's fine. Robin Meyers:              16:53                I had an accident and I understand your thoughts. So for me, I honestly had to make a conscious decision to say, I could have easily said, you're not going to ride because I had this accident and I'm afraid for you versus processing. Listen, it was an accident. Logically it was an accident. I'm going to be there. We have all the possible safety stuff. Is there a possibility of an accident? Yes. Is there the probability? I don't know, but why am I going to not let you try something because of what happened to me. So that's an easy imprint to get rid of. Right. But it's just an example of making a real conscious choice to say, I'm going to cut that cord right there and not let that pass on. Because if I let it pass on, then she at some stage in her life would either say, I've always wanted to do this and I'm going to try it, or I'm never going to try it, but I wanted to do this. Karen Litzy:                   17:57                Yeah. And you are able to kind of change that imprint. You cut that fear, but your father couldn't. Robin Meyers:                                      No, he couldn't. He was furious. Oh, he was so mad. And that's coming probably for him of a place of fear. Karen Litzy:                                           Right. I'm sure when that accident happened to you, your parents must have been beyond scared. Robin Meyers:                                      I'm sure. I'm sure. And for them, you know, they obviously had to drive to every doctor's appointment and all of that and every ounce of pain I felt probably was as bad, if not worse for them. Right. As a parent. So. Sure. So I get it. Karen Litzy:                                           Yeah. Yeah, I get that as well. And I think that's a really great example for the listeners of how you can start to change these imprints or tattoos that have taken hold in your brain to allow you to move forward in the PT World. Karen Litzy:                   18:55                And this is probably in more worlds than PT, but we call that graded exposure to activity. So for instance, for me, I'll give an example. I felt I couldn't carry anything because it would hurt my neck. So I carried nothing around New York City, a place where you have to walk everywhere and groceries and things. I was like, I can't carry anything. So I always get everything delivered until, until the one day. I spoke with a physical therapist from Australia, David Butler, and he said, well, why don't you just go to the grocery store and put like, I don't know, a loaf of bread and a bag of snacks in it would be so light and just carry it home and see what happens. Right. And so that's what I did and I got home. I was like, okay, that felt pretty good. Karen Litzy:                   19:49                And then each time I went I would add one or two more things to the bag. So gradually exposing myself to the activity that I was fearful of doing. Until now I can carry, I'm like a pack mule, you know, running around New York City. But if he had not encouraged me and helped me to see that I was doing a disservice to myself through fear, I don't know where I would be today. And I'm assuming that's what the kind of work that you do with your clients is helping them to see the fears that are holding them back. Robin Meyers:                                      Right, absolutely. So I try and work with everyone to see, to acknowledge what it is. And you have to acknowledge it, right? I mean it's something, but once you peel back that layer of it, is it logical or illogical? Robin Meyers:              20:46                Did something happen or did something not happen? And then what is the origin of it? And, with the groceries, how do you start working through it? Because when you become more present and you start learning about you and like using you as an example, right? You learned that you are stronger than you thought, it didn't hurt and now instead of holding yourself back. So you did move through it and you actively were aware of your surroundings and how you felt. There's actually a genetic disorder called Urbach-Wiethe disease, and it's a mutation where people cannot feel fear. It's very rare. It's like 400 people in the world or something and its parts. It's not just in the Amygdala, it's parts of certain regions of that combination of the brain. I don't know the other regions, but like that harden and kind of waste away. Robin Meyers:              21:50                But now that wouldn't work to your advantage. Right. I mean you want to have that element of awareness and I think that's what fear needs to be looked at like a positive awareness of listening to yourself. Karen Litzy:                                           Yeah. And I think oftentimes when you're coming from a place of fear, you're in it so to speak, it's really hard to acknowledge that because do people feel like acknowledging that is acknowledging a weakness that they might have? Robin Meyers:                                      Exactly. And that's where the conversation needs to shift. Because I think when people realize that the science of fear exists, like the diagnosis is, it's not if you have it or not. Everybody has fear. Right. So if we want to talk like, you know, as practitioners, the diagnosis is you have it.  The prescription is you have a choice on how you react to it. Karen Litzy:                                           Yeah, for sure. You definitely have it. We all have fear and how that fear manifests itself. Now in the beginning you said it could be good or bad. So how could fear be good? Cause I think we always associate with fear being bad. Robin Meyers:                                      Right? And that's what has to change. That's the conversation that needs to shift because I think there's an element of fear that's good. I really do. I think it needs to work to your advantage. You know, I honestly think that it makes you stop and think. Robin Meyers:              23:29                Now again, there's different levels of people's fears, right? So I don't think in an half hour or an hour we're going to be able to like solve the world's problems. It's good because it makes you actively move through the action of fear. So if you can take that imprint in that tattoo and look at it and say, answer the question, what is it? Identify what is it? Why am I afraid of this? Why? Why is this going to hold me back logically? Why is this going to hold me back. Karen Litzy:                                           Logically? See but that's the hard part. When you have fear, it's hard to get that logic, right? Robin Meyers:                                      And that's the whole part though of almost, you have to reverse the brain, your brain function and trick your own brain because your brain is going to keep you set in that fear based negative side. But we need to do is switch that whole paradigm to the positive side. Robin Meyers:              24:36                So I was at a course for a workshop that I did and I was one of the facilitators and the last part was this trapeze for some reason I don't like heights, I've never fallen, but just not my thing. Like I'm not going to jump out of an airplane anytime that like it's not enjoyable for me. I don't ever see doing that. But this trapeze, and this was like a pretty rustic course by the way, climb up this 40 foot tree that had the little pegs in it. Yeah, turn around on a very small perch and jump, you know, like four feet out to catch the trapeze bar. I sat there for a while looking at it as most of the people were going and I'm like, I think I'm good for the day. And then I'm like, you really got to go do it. Like why not now? You're totally harnessed in right. So logically I'm harnessed. There's no reason why I shouldn't, my body on the other hand is like, I'm shaking like a leaf. I know I can't get hurt. Robin Meyers:              25:42                Just do it. Like you have to trust yourself to just go do it. I ended up climbing up this tree. Of course when you get up to the top of the perch, I was turned around and hugging the tree. Yeah, I could see that. Yeah. Yeah. And like the guy below is like, okay, turn around. And I was like, yeah, give me a second. I'll be there in a moment and you know, go to the edge. Then they're like, just jump. And I was like, Eh, okay. You know, and you'd have to pause. But again, it's that logic and your brain playing games with you. But again, I'm standing in a harness where I know I'm not going to do a face plant onto the ground. So I took a deep breath, right. And eventually walk to the edge and put my arms in front. Robin Meyers:              26:31                I actually caught the trapeze. Thank God that would have been embarrassing. But I trusted myself, you know, again, will I ever jump out of a plane. No. Cause that's not enjoyable to me. Karen Litzy:                                           Like there are limits to where you can push yourself. And if it's not like Marie Kondo says, if it's not going to bring you joy, then you don’t have to do it right. Robin Meyers:                                      But, I did it and it was a point, it was more proving to my own self that I could take that leap of trust. So that's where I think it's really getting in tune and in touch with yourself that you can understand fear working for you and not against you and really using it to move you forward in life. You know, I remember when I first started coaching, one of my first instructors said, when you're excited about something and you're fearful of something, like that's a great combination. And I've always really, it's always proven true to me and I've always believed it. Because it's kind of like not proceed with caution. It's just be aware. It's just that self awareness, you know, listen to yourself, trust yourself. But go for it. Karen Litzy:                                           And I think that's great advice. Listen, trust and go for it. Yeah. I mean, why not? Because what's the worst that can happen? You fail. Karen Litzy:                   28:07                And that's okay too. Right? Okay. I failed plenty of times. Oh my goodness. If you never failed in life, what have you been doing with yourself? Right. So I totally get that. And now, so you went from, like I said, molecular geneticist to fear strategist, coach. How did you make that transition? I think this is a great question because there are a lot of people who work in healthcare, very science based who are like, hmm, maybe I'm ready to make that leap, but I just have no idea what to do. Robin Meyers:                                      It's a great question. So my transition took many years and let me cut it short for everybody else in the world. So obviously I was younger and did my molecular genetics training and jobs, and then I took a stint of time to raise a family and then I went back into the workforce smaller jobs. Robin Meyers:              29:18                I always taught. I ended up finding, I taught biology and stuff like that. So I kept my science going. I'm not into research in my later years, but I kept it going and then realized that I never really gave myself permission to be me and to use my voice and my strengths. And so that's when I started to kind of look towards the coaching program. And especially working with professionals and women professionals. I think overall, but all professionals allowing themselves to think outside the box. And in saying that, you know, and this comes down to the whole fear thing, we're always told that you know, you're either left sided, your brains left side or right side, right, were dominant in one side or the other. So I really don't believe that. I feel like when you give yourself permission to really learn who you are, there's a great synergy that can happen and you can combine both sides of your brain and that's when you really start listening to yourself. Robin Meyers:              30:29                So, even if you're in a science based world or something, you know, for me, my greatest strength right now is really connecting the dots back into the molecular genetics of fear and being able to bring a whole different angle and discussion and awareness, that I would not be able to. And I don't think many people can have the discussion that I'm having with it cause they just don't have that. So I think it's great to be able to combine your sciences and whatever creative side that you want to. Karen Litzy:                                           Yeah. So don't throw away the science part, use it, use it to your advantage, use everything you've learned to help others. Robin Meyers:                                      Absolutely. There are ways to connect the dots. And I mean, like you and I, you were saying, you know what, we've known each other a couple years and it wasn't until recently that I either admitted it or if you guys found out that I was a gene finder. Karen Litzy:                                           Now knowing that it makes so much more sense for what you do now. Karen Litzy:                   31:47                Now I'm like, oh, now I, yes, this makes perfect sense. It just comes back full circle as to that. I think the natural progression for you in your career and you know what was next for you. To me it all makes sense. Robin Meyers:                                      Yeah, it makes sense to me now too. It really is coming full circle. And I was actually just having a conversation. Someone's like, you know, you're kind of been in this business for several years now. And I'm like, actually I feel like I'm new. I almost feel like I've started over again just because I finally allowed myself to Mesh the worlds together. And that's what I would say is, you know, you don't have to stay science in the left brain and whatever the creative is the other side, you can mesh it and at whatever stage of life you're at, you know, if there's something that really excites you in that other world, find the time. Robin Meyers:              32:44                And even if it's once a month or once a week, you know, find something in that other element that you want to explore it. Karen Litzy:                                           Yeah, absolutely. Great Advice. And, now that takes me to the last question that I ask everyone, but I feel like you might've just answered it, but I'm going to ask it anyway. Knowing where you are now in your life and in your career, what advice would you give yourself as a new Grad, as the molecular geneticist fresh out of college and Grad School? Robin Meyers:                                      Well I was very much an introvert, so maybe be a little more outspoken. But to allow things to happen and not think that it had to be one way only. I walked that line, like if it wasn't going to be something, just molecular genetics, then I had to leave the field. Robin Meyers:              33:43                You know what I mean? And I think if I knew what I know now, although again, it all works full circle, I would have realized like you can think outside the box and I think that's what makes us all unique and you know, whatever your background is, you're bringing a very special element to the conversation. So think outside the box. And that's where I would have said to myself, you know, don't stop being creative just because you're taking one path. Karen Litzy:                                           And, I think that's great advice for anyone, but especially for women in the stem profession. I think that's really great advice. And now where can people find more about you? And if they have any questions where are you? Robin Meyers:                                      The best way to find me is just to go to my website, which is www.robinjoymeyers.com. And from there you can get on my calendar. Robin Meyers:              34:43                I'm always happy to set up a discovery call with anybody if you want to have just a chat for 40 minutes and you have questions, things about what I'm doing and where I'm traveling and busy speaking with the fearless women's summit right now, all over the US.  And I'm taking a group only of 10 women to Italy in October for a retreat of giving yourself permission to be you. So yeah, just go to my website because that's the easiest way to find me. Karen Litzy:                                           Awesome. Well, that sounds pretty amazing and thank you so much for coming on and sharing all of this information on fear with myself and with the listeners, and I can tell you, I said I'm totally using that tattoo thing. I think that's brilliant. So thanks for that. I'll give you credit for sure. I will credit you for that. Thank you so much for coming on. I appreciate it. Robin Meyers:                                      Thanks, Karen. It's been a blast. Thank you. Karen Litzy:                                           And everyone out there. Thank you so much for listening. Have a great couple of days and stay healthy, wealthy, and smart.     Thanks for listening and subscribing to the podcast! Make sure to connect with me on twitter, instagram  and facebook to stay updated on all of the latest!  Show your support for the show by leaving a rating and review on iTunes!

Why Dave Decided to Continue Talking with Carrie About the 7 Secrets to Marrying an Entrepreneur: Here is the second part of the 7 secrets that Dave and Carrie have learned to survive a marriage with an entrepreneur. In this final part Dave and Carrie get deep with the remaining 4 secrets with things like the importance of living within your means, the effect of financial stress on their marriage, and the importance of a fist bump. Most importantly of all though Carrie and Dave discuss how it is you can truly get away WITH your spouse. When was the last time you did that and truly felt recharged? Tips and Tricks for You and Your Business: (1:22) Secret #4 Cheering on Your Spouse and Giving the Fist Bump (4:16) Secret #5 Getting Away WITH Your Spouse (7:48) Secret #6 Learn to Laugh *Cue laughter from Carrie and Dave* (9:49) Secret #7 Don’t Be a Poser, It’s So Much More Fun Being Who YOU Are Quotable Moments: (0:52) “The whole reason I got into this was for my family. I wanted to make sure that as I built my businesses over the last 25 years that my family didn’t suffer, or didn’t suffer too much.” (9:04) “It’s so good to just step back sometimes and just laugh. Learn to laugh. Laughter always seems to take all the heaviness away.” (12:28) “Nothing breaks down marriage and communication more than financial stress.” Other Tidbits: Dave applied these principles himself this weekend with going cross country skiing with his marathon running wife FOR his wife. Living within your means allows you to make more than your current means. Important Episode Links:FunnelHackingLive.com FunnelHackerRadio.com FunnelHackerRadio.com/freetrial FunnelHackerRadio.com/dreamcar ---Transcript--- Speaker 1:     00:00       Welcome to funnel hacker radio podcast where we go behind the scenes and uncover the tactics and strategies top entrepreneurs are using to make more sales, dominate their markets and how you can get those same results. Here's your host, Dave Woodward. Speaker 2:     00:17       All right, everybody. Welcome back to part two in our series with my wife here on the seven secrets to surviving and entrepreneurial marriage, so we did three on the last episode and we're going to wrap up these next four here. Before we do that, if you haven't listened to those three, go back and listen that one first and also let us know what are the things that you're doing? How are you surviving as the spouse of an entrepreneur? How are you surviving as the entrepreneur in your marriage with your kids, with your family? What are the things that you're doing to make sure that it's not just all business, business, business? Again, the most important thing here as the entrepreneurs to realize why you're really doing this. The whole reason I got into this was for my family and I wanted to make sure that, that as I started building my businesses over the last 25 years, that my family didn't suffer or didn't suffer too much. Speaker 2:     01:05       There are times, as you're aware that it may have been a little bit much and there's always that balance going back and forth, but I really want to make sure I understand it and feel from you what are the things that you're doing. So go back and listen to the first three, let us know what your secrets are and enjoy this episode. Thanks. The next one is to make sure that we cheer each other on. And so in that part here, I really, I can tell you is probably one of the most difficult things for some people these days is the importance of cheering each other on. Speaker 3:     01:34       Yeah, I think that that is a big one with, um, I don't know, you look at a lot of spouses that are together and you, when you first get married, right? Laurie, you first are dating. It's like super cool and you're like, Speaker 1:     01:46       yeah, you should do this. Oh yeah, you should do it. This is great. Awesome. I'm so proud of you. Speaker 3:     01:52       And then as you both get tired and exhausted and you start moving towards the goal, sometimes it gets harder to do that. And because you, your emotions change and your fatigue becomes more and you become more maybe sensitive, more irritated, more vulnerable, all of those emotions. And I think you have to step back and reground yourself and always remember that, you know, there's days when man, like I know like for Dave, like he would come home and he's just like beat up with stuff that's going on with work. And then he comes home to me and then I'm like, like I got all my stuff. And then I just see like his whole countenance change. And then the same thing where like, or he's had like a super awesome, you know, crazy experience. And then he comes home to me and I'm like, you know, like I'm frustrated or stuff that's going on. Speaker 3:     02:45       And I realized that like I need to step back sometimes and say, you know, when, when he gets like winds are high fives or fist pumps, whatever it is, like things that are going on that I need to make sure that I give him the pumped back and the high five back and, and the I cheer him on. And the same thing for him for me. And I think that that's a big important thing is that you find moments in the day where you connect. And for us, like sometimes we just take, we take off like right after he gets home, like if it's late at night, it, this doesn't happen all the time, but I guess this would be the ideal world, right? Where we'd like to go for a walk and just kind of reconnect for a couple minutes and that he can just tell me all the things about his day and I can tell him all the things about mine and that you take moments to listen to each other, like really intently listened to each other. Speaker 3:     03:34       And when you listen to each other, give feedback. See Man, that's awesome. I'm so proud of you. Or when they're having a day, like where they're just like, ah, I had a day. You can just get behind him and say, you know what, keep going. You've got this. I think good part is when you are having those types of days, you've got to make sure that, that you don't always bring that home either. You got to find a way of separating home life from business life. And uh, there was times when my commute was longer than it is right now. My commute now is about two or three minutes. And so because of that, I'm, when I've had a bad day, I've got to make sure that I'm, that I don't take it all in on, don't bring all that negative energy into the house. And sometimes I literally will just sit at the stop sign before I turned the corner of the house and go, okay, a couple of deep breaths. Speaker 3:     04:23       What's most important is family here, so you shouldn't be taken all my negative energy out on them. So that's, uh, what's our, what's our next one? Okay. Hey, so the next one, which I think goes right into it is the importance of getting a way, oh yeah. Favorite thing. This is like one of our favorite things and one of that Dave has always been super good about, um, because especially when our kids were little is like it was so hard for me to leave them. And, and then there's times when you don't, like when you think of getting away, like what is it that you think of, do you think of like going on a plane and like going somewhere? Okay. Oh, sounded awesome. Well that's not always realistic. One for so many different reasons. And I think the important thing is, is make it simple and make it happen. Speaker 3:     05:10       When you, like for us, we've always like made a goal to try to do like a 24 hour get away. And this doesn't happen all the time, but at least once a quarter we always made sure that we did that as the littles were growing up where we would just go away for 24 hours, we'd get a hotel room and once a quarter is a necessity, it's a necessity. Like you need to make it mandatory, put it on a calendar when you're going to do it. And we lived in town in California for 20 years and so it was super easy because there's so many places that we could go to up and down the coast and it felt like a little vacation, a little getaway. But guys, you have to get away. It cannot be a staycation because no staycation, because I know for like us, you completely check out. Speaker 3:     05:52       Like you get rid of your phones, you give each other 100% attention, you don't go and sit in a hotel room and watch TV the whole time you are movies like go and talk, talk. And I can always, like for me it's always good to painful when we first get away cause I'm like, I feel antsy and I, and I think I feel antsy because I know Dave's Nancy and then, and then all of a sudden you're like, okay wait, this is amazing. Like you feel like your batteries recharged. You reconnected because how often do you forget to just be affectionate with your spouse? Like when you sit next to them just doing something like holding their hand or sitting close to them or, I dunno just giving him a little kiss on the cheek. Like so many of those little things you forget. And I think when you, um, when you get away and you recharge your batteries, like you realize how important those little, those little tiny things are. Speaker 2:     06:46       I think as an entrepreneur, almost all this tello tell ourselves that we're doing this for our family. And I think if you're doing it for your family, then you need to make sure they know that. So for me, one of the main things has been to make sure that I do get away. And literally sometimes it has been literally less than 24 hours where I'll get home like at six o'clock, seven o'clock, we'll head out and we'll be back home the next day by three o'clock. Uh, just because of the things that are going on. But literally that's 24, 20 hours, whatever it might've been. Just getting away and reconnecting is, it is the juice of life for me. It is what actually helps me reconnect with the most important person in my life, my princess. And the whole idea for me has really been to turn my phone off, turn the TV off, and literally just talk. And I tried to make sure that it's not about work, it's about us. It's about our dreams, our goals. What are we really trying to do? Are we on the right path? Is this, is what we're doing? Is it going to get us to where we want to go? I think that, uh, getting away on a quarterly basis for 24 hours, as hard as it may sound, it's a mandatory. Yeah, Speaker 3:     07:50       that's all right. You got to put it on the calendar, which I think leads us to number six. And that is learn. Yeah, you laugh. It's like, it's so like you sometimes you get so caught up and I don't, I don't care what, what journey you're on, whatever it is, life just gets busy and hectic and there's always just life stuff that happens and we forget. We get so serious about everything and we forget just to laugh and giggle and laugh at yourself. Laugh it off. Like today. I don't know for those of you guys who follow Instagram with us, but we would, we got away to McCall and it was just a quick, quick getaway and we both were like, oh, I mean they're just, we, it's always hard to get away, but it's so important to do it. And we did it. And I mean, do you feel amazing? Speaker 3:     08:41       I feel awesome. I feel amazing. And the thing that I loved was we went cross country skiing today, which is not my favorite thing. His favorite thing. And it was just so funny. Like hers. We were just a train wreck today. This stuff we were doing and there was just this point where we were just both dying, laughing at ourselves and it's just, it's so good just to step back sometimes and just laugh, just learn to laugh and laughter always takes, it always takes all the heaviness, the Yuckiness, the tiredness that whateverness away, right? Yeah. Speaker 2:     09:14       I think it's the most important part. You really have to make sure you spend the time getting away laughing and having fun and whatever that takes for you is really what you have to find a way of doing. And the laughter is by far, it's, it brings a whole bunch of energy back into your marriage, your life. And if, if you can't laugh at all the crazy stuff that you've had it happen in your life, then she got to find something else to do. Speaker 3:     09:38       Exactly. Okay. So learn to laugh at how nerdy you are. Like that's your nerdiness is a gift in you. Right? Okay. So the last one is don't be a poser. Don't be a poser. Okay. So what does that mean? That means there was some advice that was given to us when we were first doing this. And the advice was whenever you're buying a house, whenever you're buying a car, always buy a little bit more than you can afford and then you will work hard enough to where you can afford it. Bad advice, bad, bad advice. Do not do that. Be who you are and be smart. And I can tell you, and that's the advice that like Speaker 2:     10:19       we just give our kids like crazy. Always live under your means a little bit like when you're doing this because it's then you, then you can take risks. When you do that, you can take risks. If you are stressed out financially, you're so stressed out that you can't take risks, you can't go after all of the things that you need to go after. And it, it's so interesting to me because sometimes we go to these events and you know, people are like, they're just like, they're, they're dressed up and like in ways that they're trying to like be something and show this certain image and be who you are. Like I think that that's, and maybe that's just our ripe age of being married at 25 years, that we're learning that it's just, it's much more fun to be you. It totally is. I think the reality is for too many people, and I've seen it happen so often for entrepreneurs and that is you get a big spike in income. Speaker 2:     11:11       You're like, oh my gosh, this is my normal income now, and all of a sudden you go out and you spend, assuming that next month that's going to be the exact same income, realize that the most important thing is you need to get, be able to find a way of building up to where you have at least six months of savings to pay for all your bills. It takes the edge off and are taking that edge off. It allows you to be much more creative. It allows you to be much more of a risk taker. It allows you to feel safety and security. And I know for, for most people there's that element of security is still there and you need to, especially as it provider, I'm probably, security isn't as important to me as it is to my wife, but I've realized that in our marriage I need to make sure that she feels secure and that security has come by making sure we have six months of savings more and more. Speaker 2:     11:57       And that as big spikes come that you don't spend at at and above that thinking well next month will be even bigger and better. And so I think for a lot of people, this whole idea as far as the poser mentality or, or going out and dressing and acting as if it actually will tend to come back to bite you. Um, I've had that I've seen in my own life, I've seen it in others and that is money. Financial stress in a marriage, is that the most huge? It just nothing breaks down marriage and communication more than financial stress and even like the six months of savings that like that was our goal when we first got going so that we could always feel comfortable with that. And if you, the thing is is once you get to that savings and you get to that place where you have a nest, then you get to that place where it's not, it's never a stress anymore because you have way more than your six months. Speaker 2:     12:50       You have way more than a year, you have way more. I mean you have just way more than any where you're able to have that, that comfort in it. And it's because you were smart with it. Not Because, oh, you've just got lucky. No, it has nothing to do with that. It has everything to do with you managed your circumstance correctly and manage the risk. And I think that's really one of the most important things. You have to be able to manage risks as an entrepreneur, that your number one responsibility is managing risk. And the biggest problem so many entrepreneurs get involved with is thinking that I can spend whatever I want because there'll always be more and there's not always going to be more. And I think that the key for me as again, we've been talking with our our son and our daughter in law is the importance of living within your means. Speaker 2:     13:38       And you can still go out and splurge and have fun and do those kinds of things. But understand that there's, there are laws, especially associated with money, that if you start breaking those laws, you will pay the price and don't have negative 10 negative emotions with it either. Because I think like with our kids, like we always tried to teach them. We went to a seminar when we were first married and it talked about jars and like making sure that you put money in your jars of and create which, which jars they are, right? So it's like a fun jar. It's your savings jar, it's your yacht necessities. You have education. There's six different jars and you can look up just Google six jars if you're wanting to figure that out. But it's super, super cool. And so it just gives you permission to still have fun and to still do all those things and yet still save as you're going along and starting that journey. So anyways, that's the seven secrets, seven secrets of surviving and entrepreneurial bearish. Speaker 2:     14:36       Beg so much. We love you guys. Appreciate you listening to this and hopefully this helps you. Uh, leave a comment, send us a Facebook message, reached out to my wife, tell us your secrets. Tell us your secrets. What have you guys done? Let us know. All right, we're signing off. See you later. All right, everybody. That wraps up our two part series to the seven steps to surviving an entrepreneur marriage. Let us know your thoughts. Reach out to me either through a Facebook personal message or send me an email or a Instagram. However you want to reach out to me. I'd love to know what your feedback is. Or He'd go ahead and leave a comment down below or on iTunes or stitcher or wherever else you might be listening this. I read all those comments out of the game. I'd love to kind of find out your feedback as well. Have an amazing day. Thanks again for listening.

Why Dave Decided to talk with Carrie about Being Married to an Entrepreneur: After years and years of grinding in the entrepreneurial world, Dave and Carrie are now at a point where they feel they can see clearly through the clouds of life. The message that they want to share with you all from this moment of hindsight and excitement towards the future are 3 of the 7 Secrets to Being Married to an Entrepreneur. As entrepreneurs still on the journey they want to share with you the importance of enjoying the journey, the essentiality of transparence, and a personal story or two that just might put your Dave Woodward trivia to the test. Tips and Tricks for You and Your Business: (2:30) Secret #1 Ask Yourself, Are You Enjoying the Journey? (5:01) The Woodwards’ Journey: When You Say ‘No’ to Med School and ‘Hello’ to Uncertainty (8:44) Secret #2 Being Open and Transparent is Essential (12:16) Secret #3 Your Relationship is a Team, Cooperate Quotable Moments: (3:20) “Realize that you also have to look at moments of how far you have come and not get caught up in how far you have to go.” (7:54) “The Entrepreneurial Journey for us was not a straight line, ours us much more of...it was like switchbacks. And that’s just life.” (14:22) “Without that team effort, there’s no way we could have accomplished what we have done. And, I wouldn’t be able to do what I do without knowing that she’d have my back the whole time.” Other Tidbits: As the wife behind the entrepreneur, Carrie has always struggled telling others her role in the family. Important Episode Links:FunnelHackingLive.com FunnelHackerRadio.com FunnelHackerRadio.com/freetrial FunnelHackerRadio.com/dreamcar ---Transcript--- 00:00     Welcome to funnel hacker radio podcast where we go behind the scenes and uncover the tactics and strategies top entrepreneurs are using to make more sales, dominate their markets and how you can get those same results. Here's your host, Dave Woodward. Everybody welcome back. 00:18     I'm so excited because this is my second episode of my wife, my Princess Carrie Woodward. So excited to have her here. Uh, we wanted to Kinda talk to you a little bit about what it takes to survive and entrepreneurial marriage. Seven secrets that we've looked at. We've been married now for 25 years and last. So a year ago, January, my son, our oldest son Chandler, got married and he married our first, our first daughter into our family of four boys. And Chandler's the oldest. So he married Fran, she's from Chile. And her experience as far as entrepreneurs, they were the people basically who couldn't get a job. They were always the broke people. And the idea of her husband wanting to become an entrepreneur was something that was really scary. So she was at funnel hacking live last year as well as this year where she kind of got introduced to a different idea of what an entrepreneur was having grown up in Chile, the way out of being an entrepreneur actually was going to college and getting a degree and I becoming a doctor, an attorney, an accountant, something that had a designations and letters behind it, that's the only way you could actually really make it. 01:25     And she got exposed to the fact that maybe you actually could even do better than a doctor, an attorney or an accountant or any other person with letters behind their names by actually being the entrepreneur who actually owns the business. And so we've had a lot of conversations with them and it's been interesting as my wife I were to sit in, you're talking about some of the things that we've learned over the last 25 years and thought, you know what? It might be fun to share those with you. So what are we going to do? Is, is tell you basically seven of the secrets that we've found to surviving being married to an entrepreneur. Sweetheart. I'm gonna let you take this away. 01:58     Okay. So when, when they went to, they're seeing them in this past year of them trying to take on this journey of wanting to chase their dreams and go after their goals and make a difference in the world and really go after their passions. It was just like a total eye opener for me of wow. Like looking back of what our past 25 years have been about. And I think that that was something that really started to make me look at it a little bit different and realize that the first secret with it is enjoying the journey. Because I think as entrepreneurs so many times you get so focused on the goal and it's so much work, right? I mean like you look at someone who is trying to go like that. Let's talk about the Olympics. First of all, they Olympics, I love watching these stories at the Olympics because it talks about what it took for those people to get there, right? 02:50     But with entrepreneurs, we sometimes forget that we're just like that. Like we have to work so hard and all those long training days through our journey in order to be able to get to the place where our goal is, wherever that that is. So I think that that's one of the things that as I, you know, we start talking to our son and our daughter in law that the importance of you guys have got to celebrate your wins and realize that you have to also look at moments of how far that you've come and not get so caught up in how far you have to go. Oh my gosh. That probably was one of the biggest weaknesses I had was the goal was so far out there that I, at times I just, yeah, I'd made a lot of wins and had been successful, but it was nowhere near where I wanted to go or be and our member times, my princess would be sitting there going, but look how far we've come. 03:45     I'm like, yeah, but look how much farther we have to go. And I think it's real important that you take the time to actually stop for a second and look back over that path and realize, oh my gosh, I can't believe how much I've learned, how much I've grown, how much I've made, the impact I've had and who I've become. Because I think part of the entrepreneurial journey is who you personally become through it all. And that's why when you're married to an entrepreneur, it's important that both of you understand there's a becoming phase and that becoming phase super critical, that you have to make sure that you celebrate the wins and you do. You enjoy the journey of becoming. Yeah, and I love that too. What you just said, because I think that's the importance of growth because you know, like, like that quote, nothing ever grows and comfort zones, we all can't stand it to be uncomfortable. 04:31     That's the worst thing in the whole world. But it's the only space that we grow. It's the only space that we change. It's the only space that we transform into who we are capable of becoming. And I think that that is super awesome, you know, it's interesting because a lot of times people get caught up in like, oh, I'm so miserable. I hate my job. I feel stuck. I feel all these things. Well then change it. But they won't change it. Right. Everyone loves to sit and complain, but no one wants to actually do something about. So the entrepreneurs are the ones who chose to do something about it and choosing to do something about it is not the easy road at all. But it is the most exciting, most amazing journey ever. And I think that that, as I look back at it, I think of, wow, 25 years. 05:18     Okay. Can I share that? How we started it? Okay. So I'll just do share this super quick. So when we first got married, we went down, Dave and I graduated from college together. I graduate with my bachelor's. He graduated with his masters. Well, he was going to get a second masters because of the field that he was going into. Well, we get down, we moved down to Texas, we get married and we're in school a semester and a half, right? And, and all of a sudden we have this feeling like, okay, the industry is changing and this isn't where we're supposed to be. We knew it. Like we just had this strong feeling confirmation. We just knew it wasn't where we were supposed to be and where we were supposed to go. So we made this huge jump and this leap of faith to jump out and to start our own business. And it was like, I think back at that now and I'm like, my dad's parents were probably thinking, what are you guys doing? 06:18     My Dad was furious. I'd been accepted to medical school and I bailed out on medical school. I then got a sec, I got a masters in exercise physiology and was then going back and getting them. And I'd just gotten married and now I'm getting a master's in physical therapy at the time. And leaving all of that. I had a full ride 4.0 and my dad's like, Dave, you have to understand you're married. You can't be doing this stupid stuff where you just don't know what you're doing. You're changing your mind all the time. And my dad, no, I really, I don't want to do this. He goes, it doesn't matter. You have to just suck it up. My Dad's an attorney and my mom was a nurse and so professional life was the only way you could ever be successful. And he's like, yeah, Dave, you will not make it as an entrepreneur. You just, you don't understand how hard it is. 07:00     So the interesting thing is that I think the importance of like sharing that story is that you have to know whatever your calling is, whatever your purpose is. And you have to follow that and you have the courage to follow it. And if you follow it, whatever journey it takes you on, it will be the one that you're supposed to go and, but you have to make sure that you are willing to be accepting of going in a direction and creating movement so that you can walk through whatever doors are gonna open for you and know that sometimes when you go in a certain journey, don't get so stuck on, that's the direction that you have to go. Always be open, always be open to what direction it takes you. And if you do that and you just trust the process, you will, you'll find whatever your purpose is, what of your calling is, whatever it is that you're supposed to do. Do you agree? Absolutely. 07:52     The Roi, at least for us, the entrepreneurial journey was not a straight line. Ours was much more of it. It varies. It was like switchbacks, but six days and that, and that is life. And I think that's the part it is for everybody and you just have to embrace that and enjoy it and really enjoy the journey. 08:08     Yeah. And I like, I can't, like, it's so interesting that so many friends of mine as you know, growing up as I was younger, you know, just starting our family and they're like, why aren't you doing what? What you're doing what you're doing? What? And then as I watched them who they had the quote unquote stable job, you know, now they're, they've, they've had to go from job to job to job, to job because they're always trying to grow and change and do things. So whether you Zigzag as an entrepreneur, are you zigzag, climbing up some other corporation, going from place to place, trying to find the job that you want. It's the same thing. So do what you love. Okay. Should we let journey, enjoy the journey. Okay. So the next thing, which I think is perfect, secret number two is do it as a team. 08:48     Super important. I made a massive mistake when I, when we first got going. And that was, I wanted to be the protector, the provider, and make sure that she never had any hardships or, or that I protected her from any of the bad stuff that was happening. And so when things went bad or wrong, I wouldn't tell her. And my princess is smart enough as any woman, is to be able to see all the other emotional baggage that I'm carrying. And she's like, I know something's wrong, gay. What's wrong? I'm like, sweetheart, everything's gonna be okay. Don't worry. I've got it. And like that I, that was a massive mistake because what happened was I didn't allow her to grow and to gain the emotional muscles that happen as you go through those types of a stressful situations together. 09:52     Yeah. So just make sure that you're totally open and transparent all the time and be honest with each other. Because I think that for me, that is where that, you know, like people will say to us like, how, Oh, you're so lucky you've been married for so long and it's worked for you. Are you kidding? Like it has not been a bed of roses and lilies and dandelions. It's been beautiful. And the reason why it is so special is because we have been through ups and downs together. Crazy and crazy ups and downs. And that's what makes the lilies and the roses and the dance, you know, like all of those beautiful things. That's what makes it amazing is because you go through that stuff together. So I think that, um, you know, like we've cried together, we've laughed together, we've done all of those things and, and it's, that's what's made these 25 years so beautiful because, because we've done it together 10:26     and I think that's the most important part is you have to be willing to share. And at times, especially the hard stuff, those are the hard conversations nobody wants to have. But as you have those and you grow together through those, it makes the wins so much, so much more amazing because you literally can cry through the winds in gratitude because you did it together. 10:47     Yeah. And just, and I think like that being, because okay, Dave tree, you actually jumped forward that was open and transparent about the good and the bad. So that, see, we'll call that secret number two now be open and transparent about the good and the bad. So the other thing to add to that is being open and transparent with the good and the bad. Be forgiving of each other. I think that, you know, as I'm around like other couples and stuff, you know, and I hear, I hear people complain about each other and, and, and it just, it's so good for me because it makes me look at myself in the mirror. It makes me think, wait, do I do that? Do I complain? Do I, do I not just stand to the side and, and, or not stand to the side, but stand next to him and kind of, you know, make sure that I, I'm there for him and that I'm, that I'm positive and that I'm supportive. 11:37     And that even when he has to share with me the ugly and he's being transparent and honest, that I'm appreciative of it and I'm grateful for it instead of angry. And I think that that's, it's not an easy thing to do. No, it's not an easy thing to do, but it's so, and, and we're continuing to learn that as, as, as years go on. But it's important to make sure that you, um, that you make sure that you're open and transparent and when your partner is being open and transparent, be grateful for that and allow yourself to receive it and accepted. Okay, so let's move on to do it as a team, which we're going to call that number three now. And what we were talking about with that was understanding your position on the team. Right? Okay. So what does that mean? That means like, you know, not everyone can be the quarterback. All of our kids have been really into doing sports growing up. And it's so funny, like you have all the parents are like, I want my kid to be the quarterback, or I want them to be, you know, this position and the one that gets all the attention and the wide receiver or the light Becker. And it's important for them to understand that the a team cannot be successful unless everyone understands their position in every position is just as important as the quarterback. 12:49     I think that's real critical. My wife has been amazing as far as supporting me through a lot of these crazy ups and downs. And I think for, for me that the most important part of that has been making sure I reciprocated as well. There's things that she wanted to do and I needed to make sure that I was there to support her in those things. Uh, one of the things, my wife is an amazing athlete, amazing runner. Uh, she's literally a world class marathon runner. And I, it was, even though at the time, running wasn't one of my greatest passions, I knew how important it was for her. And because of that, we would spend time going out and I would be there on her early morning runs on Saturday. She'd get up at five o'clock in the morning, go on long runs and, and I'd be out there bringing the water tour or doing everything I could to support her in that as we've traveled to the different events to make sure that I was there as a support because she had been there supporting me through thick and thin through the ups and the downs of the entrepreneurial journey there was important for me to be able to do the exact same thing. 13:50     And I think too often we get focused on it's only, it's a one sided approach. You Ha if someone's going to support you, you have to be able to reciprocate that. And for me, reciprocating that has been, uh, making sure she's able to find the things that she enjoyed and to really encourage her to go out and to do those types of things. At the same time. She's been an amazing support and I traveled a ton and even I traveled quite a bit right now. And with that, she's always been home taking care of raising our four boys. And without that team effort, there's no way in the world we could have accomplished what we've done. And I couldn't, I couldn't go and do what I do without knowing that she had my back all the time, 14:34     which is a give and take and so many ways because I think that one, you know, what day was just referring to is probably a whole nother secret. And that is don't get lost in yourself and make sure you have your own hobbies and things and things that give you for fulfillment. Um, and I think that, you know, Dave's always been really, really good at, at making sure that he pushed me towards that. And I am so grateful for that. And I think that, um, you know, for me there's been, there's been years and, and different, you know, things that we've done where we've worked together side by side. There's been things where we've done our own thing. And then there's been times where I've realized or not, I, we have realized as a team that in order for our team to be successful, in order for him to push at the level that he can push, I needed to be the one to take care of the kids. 15:26     And, and you know, that's a hard thing because sometimes like, like you get, you know, you go with people and I met, I'm, you know, in that phase where people are like, oh gosh, you know, what is it that you do? You have such great kids and, and we, we, we have been blessed with an amazing, amazing, amazing boys and I couldn't feel and be more grateful for that. Um, I also know that, you know, we've had our ups and downs, you know, the normal struggles and things that every family has. People you have, everyone has it, everyone has it. But I think that we've worked through all of those and we, because we've stayed so close as a family, meaning that we had to kind of set our team up a little bit different and realize that, okay, with the level and intensity these last couple of years that Dave has been pushing or different times in our life that I needed to focus on the kids. 16:18     And that was a hard thing for me and some places because, you know, we'd go to these events and be like, oh, so what do you do? And I'm like, Oh, I am like managing the home front so that we can all, so that we can make this thing happen. And I think that that's the thing is that you have to be, you have to know that not everyone can be the quarterback sometimes and it's give and take with each other spouses that sometimes it's for you. Sometimes it's for them. Um, and these last, uh, you know, a little bit, it's been 100% as these kids, you know, we've had weekends where it's been intense with the kids in there, all the different things that they've been having to do. And we've just had to know that, okay, this is what my position on the team needs to be. 17:02     This is what his position needs to be on the team. Does that mean what everyone else has to be like that? No, you have to decide what your plays are, what your team looks like and you got to decide how that's going to work so that your family can stay together. And for us, our family reunion, that was like one of our huge goals for us is that it didn't matter how much money we made or how much success we had if our family was a mess. And I think that, you know, just looking at different, different things that you go through in life that I'm watching my kids like how close they are. And I really, and I am grateful that we did our team the way that we've done where we've just really hunkered down and tried to manage what position and 17:50     everyone is in different stages of life so that we can, um, try to create that, that family unit that we desired to have. I think that for us, one of things we've gone, we've tried to live by is that no success can compensate for failure in the home. And we've really tried to focus most on family and to make sure that as we're doing that, that our family came first. Not to say there's an equal balance at all times, but honestly, the most important thing for us has always been to make sure that we focused in on and making sure that that happened. All right. That is the first three secrets of our series of seven secrets to survive and entrepreneurial marriage. So please first of all, let us know what you think about it. So if you don't mind either leave a comment down below, send me a personal message on Facebook or Instagram, email, whatever, however you'd like to reach out to me. 18:41     But also let me know what are the things that you've done. Uh, one of the things that you're doing in your marriage as an entrepreneur, how are you, what are the, how are you surviving as the spouse of an entrepreneur or an entrepreneur or as the entrepreneur self? What are the things you're doing to make sure that your life and your spouse and your life with your family is, is fulfilling and most importantly that it's, it's not all business business, business. So let us know. We're super excited to hear about that and tune in next time before the second part of the remaining four secrets to surviving and entrepreneurial marriage. 19:17     Harry, thank you so much for taking the time to listen to podcasts. And one of the things we're really passionate about is trying to get everyone up and running as fast as they possibly can. And one of the things we've done recently that has helped so many people and that is are one funnel away challenging. If you don't mind it, it's something of interest to you. We actually will pay you $100 for anybody who signs up for the one funnel away challenge or if you want to go ahead and sign up and do it yourself, just go to one funnel away, challenge.com again, that's one funnel away, challenge.com sign up, go through a 30 day challenge. Uh, it's one of the great things. We've got Russell basically giving you a 10,000 foot level. Julie Swing comes in and gives you, kind of hear the nuts and bolts of exactly how to make it work. And then Steven comes in every single day and spends time basically telling you exactly what to do on a daily basis. So heels you to hold your feet to the fire. Super Accountable. We've had more people get more success and things out of this than anything else. So go ahead and sign up@onefunnelaway.com. Thanks.

In this episode, Michelle Carter and I discuss some of the mistakes that bloggers make which result in a lawsuit.  This can include trademark infringement (naming a blog after a registered trademark), copyright infringement (in pictures and music), and defamation. Here is a lightly-edited transcript of the episode: Anthony Verna: Hi there. Welcome to the Law & Business Podcast. I'm joined with the lovely, beautiful, smart, intelligent Michelle Carter. How you doing? Michelle Carter: I am great. Thanks for having me again. Anthony: Anytime. I'm going to let you kick it off cause this topic was kind of your idea wasn't it? Michelle Carter: Indeed it was. I think today we're going to be talking about the five things as a blogger that can get you sued. Anthony: And I'm sure there's more than five now that I think about it, but we've got five in mind though. Michelle: You're the attorney so you would know better than I, but, I think that we have both found that there are five common mistakes that bloggers make that will tend to get them in hot water if not right away then in time because eventually they will find you and catch up with you. Anthony: We'll go with that. I'll say this is a caveat to the show topic is that we're giving five tips or five things to be wary of, but ultimately there's always more than that. And these are five main ideas and five main thoughts. But, but anybody out there who has a blog in order to make money in order to advertise in order to keep business going, there's just more than these five. Michelle: Fair enough. So number one on our list of five things that can get you sued as a blogger is naming your blog after another business. Anthony: Some examples that come to mind are IkeaHacker. Michelle: I can answer you Forever 21. Anthony: That's a good one. Michelle: A Kindle Fire Department. One of my favorites of all time is Regretsry. Anthony: Right. And Regretsy is not around anymore. Michelle: No. April has moved on, but it was a great blog while it lasted. So, so why is it that naming your blog after another business could get you sued? Anthony: Well, for a lot of these businesses, obviously the business name is, is a trademark. And let me take a step back because I know not everybody listening has been listening since episode one. But the trademark is a business name, a business, a slogan, a logo that relates back to a business. Usually business people can own trademarks, but it basically identifies the source of goods and services and the quality of those goods and services. So something like Ikea, you think of Swedish furniture there. There you go. Swedish, that's made in China. Right? Okay. Isn't it all? But the idea of, of, of more than just Swedish furniture is I would say modular furniture, modern furniture. And what a website like - was it Ikea Hacks, Ikea hackers.net did, and I'm still not sure why you would want to do this, but they basically had their own ways of putting together Ikea furniture so that you could put together your bookshelf as a desk instead. They had a lot of different projects, like they had one where you could buy an end table and make a guitar out of it. Is this fair use, or, why not? Yeah. Honestly, it may be. It's, I know I read at least one comment where people said it was cheaper to buy Ikea furniture than it was to go to your local home improvement store and buy wood. So, and it's already cut. It's already polished. It's already finished there. There are a lot of different projects. We certainly can't fault them for their creativity. I wouldn't want to do anything like that, though. Michelle: Okay. Your opinions on this website aside the, the fact is it was a very popular website. They had a lot of readers. Anthony: Yes, absolutely. And there is delineation here as to why Ikea decided to stay away from a lawsuit. And then they went to start the trademark infringement suit because ikeahackers.

Here it is! The introductory podcast for Tohubohu Productions, as recorded by Tohubohu veteran director/producer William R. Coughlan. Yes, it’s cheesy. Yes, it’s unpolished and unedited. But that’s what makes it real, right? Right? Okay, so we’re not buying it either. Just give it a listen and stay tuned. They’ll get better. We promise. In this episode: A brief introduction and an announcement of our plans to enter the 2006 48 Hour Film project. If you run into any problems (or have any suggestions), please don’t hesitate to drop us a line at podcast@tohubohu.tv, or visit our website at www.tohubohu.tv.