Podcast appearances and mentions of michael tierra

Knight of cups! Let's go on a journey together and expand our view of herbs with The Herbal Tarot by Michael Tierra.  You can purchase the deck & book together: planetherbs.com/shop/herbal-tarot-deck-spirit-of-herbs-companion-book-set/  And remember to become a patron of Herbal Marie today to really help this herbal podcast grow! www.patreon.com/herbalmarie  --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/herbalmarie/message Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/herbalmarie/support

Some call it the card of hope. Others see it as the calm that comes after the destruction of The Tower. The Star brings healing and space to mend. Now, you are okay; things are safer and softer. In this episode, we dive into our thoughts around this card and pull some examples from our collections. We also discuss how many decks display the central figure nekkid on these decks. Homework: Look at your Star cards and compare and contrast. Go outside and look at the sky. Be gentle to yourself. Melissa: This Might Hurt by Isabella Rothman & Addison Duke Hilary: Gilded Tarot Royale by Ciro Marchetti  Jaymi: Triple Goddess Tarot & Creatures Tarot by Sara Kathleen Cori: The Herbal Tarot by Michael Tierra and Candis Cantin Do you like what you hear? Send feedback to us at cardslingerscc@gmail.com. Follow us on Twitter at https://twitter.com/cardslingerscc and now on Instagram at www.instagram.com/cardslingerscc.  Reminder, we would NEVER DM YOU for a reading on any social media site. We schedule all readings and conversations through our personal websites.

Page of cups! Let's go on a journey together and expand our view of herbs with The Herbal Tarot by Michael Tierra.  You can purchase the deck & book together: planetherbs.com/shop/herbal-tarot-deck-spirit-of-herbs-companion-book-set/  And remember to become a patron of Herbal Marie today to really help this herbal podcast grow! www.patreon.com/herbalmarie  --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/herbalmarie/message Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/herbalmarie/support

10 of cups! Let's go on a journey together and expand our view of herbs with The Herbal Tarot by Michael Tierra.  You can purchase the deck & book together: planetherbs.com/shop/herbal-tarot-deck-spirit-of-herbs-companion-book-set/  And remember to become a patron of Herbal Marie today to really help this herbal podcast grow! www.patreon.com/herbalmarie  --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/herbalmarie/message Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/herbalmarie/support

9 of cups! Let's go on a journey together and expand our view of herbs with The Herbal Tarot by Michael Tierra.  You can purchase the deck & book together: planetherbs.com/shop/herbal-tarot-deck-spirit-of-herbs-companion-book-set/  And remember to become a patron of Herbal Marie today to really help this herbal podcast grow! www.patreon.com/herbalmarie  --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/herbalmarie/message Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/herbalmarie/support

Eight of cups! Let's go on a journey together and expand our view of herbs with The Herbal Tarot by Michael Tierra.  You can purchase the deck & book together: planetherbs.com/shop/herbal-tarot-deck-spirit-of-herbs-companion-book-set/  And remember to become a patron of Herbal Marie today to really help this herbal podcast grow! www.patreon.com/herbalmarie  --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/herbalmarie/message Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/herbalmarie/support

Reading and understanding cards can be hard for beginners. The companion book or little white book (LWB) can be viewed as a boat or a harbor that anchors you instead of being set adrift on a sea of tarot meanings/interpretations. However, as you grow and learn, you'll find that cards have a wide variety of meanings. So, in today's episode, we answer two listener questions about how you figure out what cards mean to you when the LWBs have different meanings.  Homework: Keep a meanings journal. Compile various meanings for each card from all the sources you have available to you. Do it online or printed and see where things intersect and differ. Personal meanings are as valid as what “experts” write. Decks Mentioned:  Scorpio Sea Tarot by Maggie Stiefvater and Melissa Cynova  Handl Tarot  (and the companion books, Major Arcana, and Minor Arcana, by Rachel Pollack)  Mary-El Tarot by Marie White Wild Unknown Tarot by Kim Krans Herbal Tarot by Michael Tierra and Candis Cantin The Savvy Soul Tarot by Julie Waidelich Do you like what you hear? Send feedback to us at cardslingerscc@gmail.com. Follow us on Twitter at https://twitter.com/cardslingerscc and now on Instagram at www.instagram.com/cardslingerscc.  Reminder, we would NEVER DM YOU for a reading from any social media site. We schedule all readings and conversations through our personal websites.

This episode Sally-Anne shares fabulous plants to create and amazing hedge and how to care for them. Plant/s of the week: Pansies and violas Tarot of the week : the Herbal Tarot by Michael Tierra and Candis Cantin ISBN: 978-0-88079-332-2   Theme music: www.-planet.com and www.epidemicsound.com

Seven of cups! Let's go on a journey together and expand our view of herbs with The Herbal Tarot by Michael Tierra. You can purchase the deck & book together: planetherbs.com/shop/herbal-tarot-deck-spirit-of-herbs-companion-book-set/ And remember to become a patron of Herbal Marie today to really help this herbal podcast grow! www.patreon.com/herbalmarie SUBSCRIBE for MORE episodes: https://anchor.fm/herbalmarie --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/herbalmarie/message

Guest, Kathleen Gould Kathleen Gould, Herbalist RH (AHG) has studied, taught and lived herbalism for 25 years. She is a professional member of the esteemed American Herbalist Guild and has studied herbalism throughout the U.S. with internationally known herbalist Rosemary Gladstar, Tieroana Lowdog MD, James Duke Ph.D., Michael Tierra, David Hoffman, Patch Adams and Susun Weed. She is the former owner of both the Herb Corner and Learning Center and The Southeastern Center for Herbal Studies in Florida.  Kathleen was raised in California, then life and work moved her to the East Coast, where she lived in a number of places from Connecticut to Florida for the past 30 years. No matter where she moved, the desert Southwest kept calling to her. In 2005 she finally followed that calling and now happily lives just outside the Phoenix area. In her continuing passion of herbal healing, she started SW Herb, along with her business partner, Madalyn Johnson.

Michael Tierra is the founder of the American Herbalists Guild. Michael and Lesley Tierra founded the East West School of Planetary Herbology Michael Tierra is one of the pioneers of the modern herbal era. I was fortunate enough to interview Michael in 2006 for my radio show. I have always had an interest in capturing […] The post 409 – Michael Tierra – Herbal Pioneer and Educator appeared first on Health Quest Podcast.

Six of cups! Let's go on a journey together and expand our view of herbs with The Herbal Tarot by Michael Tierra.  You can purchase the deck & book together: planetherbs.com/shop/herbal-tarot-deck-spirit-of-herbs-companion-book-set/  And remember to become a patron of Herbal Marie today to really help this herbal podcast grow! www.patreon.com/herbalmarie  --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/herbalmarie/message

Today on Mushroom   Hour we are joined by internationally renowned herbalist Dr. Christopher Hobbs. Dr. Hobbs is a fourth-generation herbalist, licensed acupuncturist, herbal clinician, research scientist, consultant to the dietary supplement industry, expert witness, botanist and mycologist with over 35 years of experience. He is also a prolific writer and has authored or co-authored over 20 books, including the new “Christopher Hobbs's Medicinal Mushrooms, the Essential Guide.” Christopher has lectured on herbal medicine world-wide. He earned his Ph.D. at UC Berkeley with research and publication in evolutionary biology, biogeography, phylogenetics, plant chemistry, and ethnobotany. Time to dive deep into medicinal mushrooms!   TOPICS COVERED:   Embracing Generational Tradition of Herbalism in a World of Toxic Notions  Discovering Mushrooms in the 1970s  Herbalist World View  Elevating Consciousness  Allying with Plant & Mushroom Spirits  Importance of Spiritual Wellbeing  What is Medicine?  Chemistry of Medicinal Mushrooms and the Immune System  One of Medicinal Mushrooms Biggest Benefits - Fiber  Effects of Beta Glucans & Ancient Receptors in the Body  Secrets of Medicinal Mushroom Products  Starch Testing our Mushroom Powders  Healing Powers of Reishi  Why Do We Put Up With It?  EPISODE RESOURCES:   Christopher Hobbs' Website:  https://www.christopherhobbs.com/  Christopher Hobb's Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/drchristopherhobbs/  Christopher Hobb's IG: https://www.instagram.com/christopherhobbs1/?hl=en  "Christopher Hobbs' Essential Guide to Medicinal Mushrooms": https://www.amazon.com/Christopher-Hobbss-Medicinal-Mushrooms-Consciousness/dp/1635861675/  "A Modern Herbal": https://www.amazon.com/Modern-Herbal-Complete-Margaret-Grieve/dp/1626542236/  "Back to Eden": https://www.amazon.com/Back-Eden-Jethro-Kloss/dp/0940985101/  Dr. Edward Shook: https://www.biblio.com/edward-e-shook/author/587245  Dr. John Christopher: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Christopher_(herbalist)  Dr. Michael Tierra: https://planetherbs.com/owners/dr-michael-tierra-l-ac-o-m-d/  Ed Smith: https://m.facebook.com/herbal.ed  Susun Weed: http://www.susunweed.com/  Rosemary Gladstar: https://scienceandartofherbalism.com/  Reishi (mushroom): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingzhi_(mushroom)  Boletus edulis (mushroom): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boletus_edulis

We've been receiving loads of emails from our SuperFeast community wanting to know what they can do to turn their immune system on and keep it fortified. Recently Mason caught up with our favourite functional Naturopath, Dan Sipple, to discuss go-to herbs, minerals, foods, and lifestyle practices to increase the body's immunological capacity. Embodying health sovereignty in a time of COVID has become quite a contentious topic; Who would have thought that trusting the body's immune system could become so politicised? Regardless of how you sit with the whole vaccinated/unvaccinated approach to the virus, bolstering the immune system is something (hopefully) most of us can agree is essential. People are now thinking about their immune system in ways they never have before, and we are here to offer guidance in any way we can.    Imagine a society where mainstream consensus was to value and trust the body's natural immune system over pharmaceutical drugs. Imagine a world where superior herbs and medicinal mushrooms were mandated, subsidised, and heavily endorsed to keep us all thriving and truly living our best lives. To quote John Lenon 'imagine all the people living life in peace' (instead of fear); We are here for this vision. Tune in to hear Mason and Dan explore all the ways they would reinforce and support people's immune systems if they were to (hypothetically speaking) dictate all members of society take part in an Immune MAXzine. Where empowered sovereign health is the goal, and we live with reverence for Mother Nature's unassailable healing intelligence. This episode is packed full (and I mean full) of expert knowledge to have you feeling equipped and in an embodied state of health. We're advocating less divisiveness, more connection, and holistic health for everyone. Don't miss it.   "The amount of experiential clinical data that we have is overwhelming, and it's so overwhelmingly effective. If we really wanted to protect the population, Astragalus would be rolled out and would become a national treasure. Perhaps we could find an Australian-based tonic herb that works similarly? At the moment we don't know because the herbal tradition in Australia has a very different approach and was documented in a very different way. At the same time, we could be on the hunt for the adaptogens within the Australian system".   - Mason Taylor     Mason and Dan discuss:   What is immunity?  Microbiome analyses. The skins microbiome. Strengthening the Wei Qi shield. Colostrum for the immune system. Herbs for long-term immune regulation. Dietary applications for the immune system. Medicinal mushrooms for the immune system. Arming the immune system in acute situations. Astragalus for lung, spleen, and surface immunity. The effects of stress and sleep on the immune system. How the immune system is influenced by the microbiome. What causes the immune system to become dysregulated? Lifestyle practices to increase your immunological capacity.    Who is Dan Sipple?   Naturopath Dan Sipple believes that establishing optimum bulletproof health is best achieved through a pro-active, functional, holistic approach that allows one to truly thrive. His approach utilises cutting-edge evidence-based medicine applied through modalities such as herbal nutrition & medicine, with a strong focus on environmental health and longevity. Dan specialises in the areas of Immune / Gastrointestinal / Hormonal health and utilise functional diagnostic labs such as uBiome, Nutripath, Laverty, and Clinipath Pathology to assist in locating the imbalances contributing to the patient's condition. From here, he aims to create an individualised protocol designed to address root dysfunction and create bulletproof health.   CLICK HERE TO LISTEN ON APPLE PODCAST    Resources: Dan Website Dan Instagram Gut Health Podcast 1 Gut Health Podcast 2   Q: How Can I Support The SuperFeast Podcast? A: Tell all your friends and family and share online! We'd also love it if you could subscribe and review this podcast on iTunes. Or  check us out on Stitcher :)! Plus  we're on Spotify!   Check Out The Transcript Here:   Mason Taylor: (00:04) Hey man, welcome back.   Dan Sipple: (00:06) Thanks buddy. Good to be here.   Mason Taylor: (00:08) Yeah, good to be looking at your face digitally. Yeah, I think it's been a while since we've had a catch up. We've definitely talked about immunity before but there's just been a little tweak in the consciousness lately where all of a sudden collectively with what's going on in the world with COVID everyone's thinking about immunity much more than they ever have I feel on a collective nature and then there's a number of people that are allowing themselves because immunity is like a... You can't separate the immune system from the rest of the body and I feel like there's panic when people think about their immune system being something that's strong enough or not strong enough with or without natural medicine, with or without a vaccine so on and so forth.   Mason Taylor: (00:56) I feel like there's a really nice moving away into more of a perception of what immunity is and then the word immunity can kind of fall away and people can connect to the whole nature of their system and how there is the body's capacity to protect itself with efficacy based on your personal constitution. I guess there's just a real... There's a variance there in terms of if you want your immune system to be strong you're in a more reductionist... Having a reductionist kind of like vitamin and nutrient and mineral supplementation which can be super beneficial and goes from vaccines, drugs to isolates and those kinds of things to real hard core intentionalized personalization lifestyle based immunity and then eventually the body's capacity to stay in harmony and flow and stay protected. Then the capacity for... It's like a family fire as well. You're stoking the fire of your own capacity for your genome to stay really healthy and expressed and I don't even like the word healthy in that context because it implies unhealthy and-   Dan Sipple: (02:05) Yeah, I agree.   Mason Taylor: (02:06) I guess I'm really stoked to jump in with you. I don't know where we're going to go just exploring. We've got a lot of people asking what they can do for their immune system during this time, got a lot of people saying get on the zinc and vitamin C and D's and all that kind of stuff. Want to jump into that with you and then a lot of people are asking what they can do if they're not going to get vaccinated, a lot of people saying I'm getting vaccinated. What can I do in conjunction with it and I don't think that's probably our place to really talk to too much rather than just generally talking about health and immunity but I think it's relevant no matter where you are on the spectrum. Got a very wide community listening and definitely want to be inclusive in this context when we're talking about immunity but yeah, how are you feeling about it all? What's happening clinically for you? What are people worried about? What are they asking for and do you see an evolution in the way people are relating to their immune system and their capacity to protect themselves from last year to this year?   Dan Sipple: (03:06) Yeah, great question. I definitely am seeing it sort of in nearly every discussion and every consultation now. I think if there's anything good that's coming out of it is that people are thinking about their immune systems in a way they probably haven't been aware of before and so hopefully today we can just sort of dive into the different arms of immunity and discuss how different botanicals and nutrients and probiotics and dietary applications work to influence the immune system at large. Obviously full disclosure, I'm not an immunologist, I'm not a virologist, I'm a naturopath so I have a, I suppose a limited understanding but I'm I'm also super, super passionate about the immune system in general but yeah, it definitely does come up more and more as time goes on with the pandemic and everything and what everyone's going through. I think a conversation needs to be extended out into those areas because it is getting attention in terms of the zinc, the vitamin D. It would be good if it had more attention. I still think we need to push for a light on those areas because I'm still aware of different media releases and different practitioners and everything that are telling people you can't do anything for your immune system.   Dan Sipple: (04:26) It's static which is complete nonsense as far as I'm concerned because we've got good clinical data, lots of research, a test tube and animal studies and human studies to say how different nutrients and botanical extracts influence what blood cell for example influence [crosstalk 00:04:45]-   Mason Taylor: (04:44) Those people, the science is so clear on that. You can get a white blood analysis before and after taking mushrooms and see the activity and do that with a plethora of other things. You have a sauna behind you, you know? It's been clinically proven of how capacitated the immune system becomes and whether that's from directly on the immune system itself or because the nervous system is effective and it's able to go into a rest and digest place and then therefore have more efficacy. It doesn't matter. Those people have been compromised. I think we know that now.   Dan Sipple: (05:15) And people see through it too, which is good. Again, if there's anything that's good that's coming out of it people that are sitting on the fence or confused, even if you're on the side of you are going to go with the vaccination and that sort of [inaudible 00:05:33], cool. That's fine. If you're interested at the same time in what builds a healthy, strong immune system, fantastic. If you're not looking through that lens too then you damn sure want to be looking at those strategies with regards to how to regulate and boost your immune system too in my opinion.   Mason Taylor: (05:52) Yeah.   Dan Sipple: (05:53) Yeah, like I said it's just disappointing I suppose that still not one campaign, still not one release, any sort of attention on that side of medicine, I've heard nothing so far.   Mason Taylor: (06:07) Let's just do a... We kind of all know, I think i have nausea, we know why that is. We know how reductionist it is, we know the system is for all that it's good for, it's completely, it's a machine and the machine has a lack of capacity for the natural and for nuance and also for anything long term. This is what spurred me on getting in touch with you to do this one today. I was just thinking about just in let's go down the rabbit hole and into the imagination that there was a task force that was brought on and it was like, "Look, okay we're going to do what we do best in [inaudible 00:06:54] and look for the reactionary one size fits all, force everyone to do this thing so we can get back which is the vaccine which is fine but we want this task force to be looking at the long term integrity of the health of our population and so one thing that I've kind of thought I don't know how people can still be slinging stones at anyone that says, "Well why don't we have a mass roll out of like mushrooms and vitamin C and all these... The subsidisation of all these things?"   Mason Taylor: (07:26) It's too much of a complex thing for them to comprehend. It's not just a drug for everybody, it's like there's nuance and it's something that they have to do continuously not just think take once and think that you're going to be all hunky dorie although that's obviously not going to be the case going forward. We can see that now.   Dan Sipple: (07:45) That's the western mentality right there, isn't it? The pill for an ill. It's not a long term strategy unlike the more naturopathic philosophy which I suppose is more lifestyle based than long term.   Mason Taylor: (08:00) What would you say... I constantly think the thing that makes sense the most for me and if there was a task force brought in we've talked a lot about the microbiome. We don't have to go into the nuance here but if all of a sudden there was free testing offered for every single person within the population to go and get your microbiome analysed and get a full panel and free analysis. You can get digital analysis now and start training up naturopaths and naturopathic students on how to read this and give generic feedback and create databases for generic feedback. You can just look up you're out of range on this strain of bacteria, that needs to go down. This needs to go up and this is the way you do it and we're going to subsidise your prebiotics in order to get there.   Dan Sipple: (08:45) That would be nice, wouldn't it?   Mason Taylor: (08:49) Well, it's actually where you go, "These people are incompetent or sinister." Where you know that the data's very clear now. We know that one of the problems with passing on infection, whether it's influenza or whether it's COVID, we know part of it is that your immune system's not actually able to keep the infection under control and not able to manage its levels of inflammation.   Dan Sipple: (09:10) Correct.   Mason Taylor: (09:11) I'm definitely glad... I'm just a fan of looking at all this guys. I'm not saying black and white, I think it's fun, I think it's fun thinking about this. You naturally know that if you're able to manage those pathways and bring some greater intelligence to the body across the population, then you're going to get on top of this and at the beginning we knew that this was going to be long term and we knew it was because I was saying only when we get vaccination in place, blah, blah, blah. At the same time, you could go, "All right, let's hit some goals. Let's see. We know the data says that if these strains are elevated within the gut and you look at you can see across the population that those that we have chronically high amount of this, you'd be able to actually enlighten us to which strains they would be, say the type that lives off animal protein, excessive amounts of animal protein. You can have greater inflammation, you're going to have less tight junctures within the gut and therefore you know clinically that you're going to be more prone to viral infection.   Mason Taylor: (10:09) You went, "Let's set some goals across the population and protect the microbial diversity within the population. Let's make sure that we up the indigenous microbes within the gut and you can also start supporting local... If they were actually wanting to localise our industry and not take it global, at that point you can start funnelling research into the particular compounds that we have off this land say and start localising the production of prebiotics, soil based prebiotic on the probiotic supplementation and all those that's clinically correct and then get everyone a free three month, every three months, free test. They can opt in or opt out and they can just get dropped that test, get it sent and they can see real time how they're moving in the direction where they're the foundation of their immune system, their gut is actually able to handle itself better and there would be legitimate... I think they could do studies as well but they would be legitimate logic there that we are going to stop the spread of anything virulent going through the community and the population if we did that.   Dan Sipple: (11:16) That would be fantastic. We all know I think it's tricky to come out and say this I suppose but we all know that it's not really about health at the end of the day because if it was it'd be more drastic measures put in place to stop the sale of alcohol and fast food and exercise would be mandatory and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, in an ideal society that'd be great if they would subsidise those sorts of things. I think in addition to that panel's zinc status, like vitamin D status, like inflammatory markers above and beyond CRP and ESI which is what you get on a standard blood test if your doctor's willing to even look that far. Yeah, that's what I suppose what we more I guess integrative and naturopathic practitioners are more interested in those nuances with people's immune system and their integrity because it's not just about one type of blood cell or an antibody, you know? There's a lot of talk about antibodies at the moment because of the vaccination discussion.   Dan Sipple: (12:18) Yeah, cool. What about natural killer cells? What about macro fighters? What about nutrifils? What about the microbiome? All of those things... What about sleep? What about stress? It's like how long's a piece of string? We know the immune system is a lot more complicated and complex above and beyond just B cells and antibodies.   Mason Taylor: (12:35) Yeah. I had a couple of skits yet to get around to and I probably won't... Actually doing at the moment. I don't have time to do the skits unfortunately. I'll be good at my real job first and then eventually I will have my comedy career but just like the gag just being a security guard sitting in front of a pub and asking for a live blood analysis before you come in so we know you've actually taken your, what I call the immune maxine. Can you imagine? You imagine you're in charge of government. You go and find all these beautiful providers and you go and create this product that's full of... Or we can go into it, you know? I'm thinking full of mushrooms. We can go into sources of zinc and vitamin D. I'd love to do that with you but I've got the prebiotics in there, you got your colostrum in there so that when you can get that live blood analysis you can see where the... You can't discriminate against people that are immune compromised. They can of course go get tested and they can show that they are exempt from doing such thing.   Mason Taylor: (13:44) Prove. Prove you've got the immunological capacity to handle a strain, be adaptive enough to handle infection and not pass it on. Not allow your system to get to the point where you can get hoodwinked by very intelligent virus very quickly which we know happens with the flu every single year. I feel kind of silly because I used to walk around looking at airports and national airports just going... You read enough of Stephen Buhna, you look enough at virology and bacterial infection, you go, "Our ancestors are just hopping and skipping through the plane and I was thinking... This is five years ago I remember having this thought really strong. We should have some parameters around people just travelling all over the world and just coughing and spluttering and like I used to put my jumper up as I'm getting into the airport. I'm the one putting it up over my nose and over my mouth and now here we are it's swung so far the other way I'm thinking with none of the actual understanding of what these things are and what viruses are and don't know if anyone actually understands what this virus is looking at those from where it came from.   Mason Taylor: (15:00) It's not just an everyday jump from animal to human transmission which is easily traceable but it's nonetheless it's a stupid approach as we know looking at antibiotic... Sole antibiotic treatments is, it's a stupid way to go try and kill bacteria, kill the ancestors. As Buhna says, they're too smart. You're not going to do it. You're not going to beat them. Just give up. Just say we're looking at this immune maxine that everyone's going to be offered and given. We'll look at the one that's really acute. We want everyone's immune system not necessarily stimulated but in a short term kind of reactionary sense we want them all armed. What are you going in there?   Dan Sipple: (15:51) Look, echinacea comes to mind straightaway. I think any naturopath I would think agree with that, that if there's any really good clinical efficacy with echinacea and it can be used long term too by the way but when it is early days initial infection, very short term, very acute high doses and not the echinacea by the way that you get from the chemist. We're talking obviously practitioner grade liquid one in one, one in two echinacea root. That is where it would shine. I'd probably be going in there with transfer factors, colostrum, a whopping big dose of vitamin C.   Mason Taylor: (16:30) The colostrum's a huge one. I remember that paper that Daniel [Vitalis 00:16:35] used to talk about with the flu and the colostrum was three times more effective? It was a really decent-   Dan Sipple: (16:41) Yeah, he's still quite big into colostrum. I haven't looked into his stuff for years and looked into it the other day in his range and there was the fine pollens and the deer antlers and this massive big-   Mason Taylor: (16:53) Bag of colostrum.   Dan Sipple: (16:54) Yeah.   Mason Taylor: (16:55) I mean, if it was three times more effective than the flu vaccine at stopping the infection and the transmission of infection, I mean isn't that worth looking at? That's where it gets silly, you know? Just do both.   Dan Sipple: (17:07) Oh, 100%.   Mason Taylor: (17:09) Just do both. I'm so over it. Do you remember years ago we did that tour... Years ago when no jab no pay came in and I felt it. I've a lot of friends and single mothers who were just forced into a corner and now were going to have their money taken away unless their kids get jabbed. For better or worse. I'm not saying I'd agree or disagree although I do disagree at that kind of level of coercion and no nuance. I remember I just wrote I think in a blog or something like that, I was like, "Look, what about that and?" Why not that and-   Dan Sipple: (17:44) Well it's just a conversation, isn't it?   Mason Taylor: (17:47) And reishi mushroom and colostrum. Then do you remember when I did that tour as like four years ago now we did that tour and nothing about vaccines at all but the whole pro vaccine mob of The Telegraph, Sydney Morning Herald, they kind of just started writing hit pieces and they wrote one on me and they were saying this guy Mason Taylor thinks that these people should be taking reishi mushroom instead of vaccinating," which of course they're so programmed and they're just mobsters who get told who to go after and that's what they did. They called us at 5:00 in the morning trying to catch us off guard because they're awful people pretending to be a journalist. They just write these hit pieces without actually looking at any of the nuance and just like why is it an unreasonable thing to say as many people are saying right now go get the vaccine but then do all these other things as well. That gets of course the level because they don't have the capacity to hold two ideas at the same time because they lack intelligence. Not everyone. I've had lots of... I've had people on here that like really... They really enjoyed getting their vaccine but they have the capacity to realise that it's not going to do it alone.   Mason Taylor: (18:58) I think that's where I just want to preface it, that's where we're coming from so yeah, colostrum, do you want to tell everyone about the transfer factors and what the vibe is with them?   Dan Sipple: (19:09) Yeah, so look as I understand its peptides transferred from bovine or chicken sources mostly bovine from what I understand that when transferred over to human host in this case I guess does transfer the immunological weaponry and memory that the source contained so that therefore when the host is then exposed to different antigens it has a much stronger chance of dealing with it effectively but in addition to the anti pathogenic action of it, it's more also about being used long term for immune regulation and that's a big piece I think that gets overlooked too is the regulation of the immune system is what's important here because it's not just, as I said earlier about the antibodies or one type of cell. The regulation is what's missing so we kind of zoom out from the COVID discussion and just talk about the fact that in today's kind of society, in contemporary society a lot of people by and large have dysregulated immune systems. That comes back down to a whole heap of factors which we can get into but I always collectively refer that as to like antigenic load. What's someone's antigenic load like? What does that mean? Well, it means what's pissing off someone's immune system. What's causing their immune system to create havoc and inflammation and collateral damage to their own ecosystem.   Dan Sipple: (20:37) That can be dietary proteins coming through a leaky gut, that can be parasites, that can be different viruses and stealth infections. It can be weakened nutritional status. It can be stress all to my gut microbiome. That kind of yeah, that kind of conversation is where I'm at at the moment in terms of what can we also use so that when we do encounter a really gnarly infection that our immune system just doesn't absolutely blow a fuse.   Mason Taylor: (21:05) You'd be wanting to basically you're in this task, say you're in this task force and they're like, "Listen, over the next five, 10 years we want the population of all Australians to be really fortified so we can slow down the spread of this thing. You'd have to start speculating in the beginning but because the immune system's evolved you're speculating in a general way but in a way that you know is inevitably involved, yeah. You'd be wanting to test people for Epstein Barr, see if there's any stealth infection in that kind of context parasitic load. You want to be looking at their leaky gut, so on and so forth to make sure they aren't walking around with something that perhaps is symptomatic and perhaps it's asymptomatic. Just because it's asymptomatic doesn't mean it's not going to cause harm to... In this instance cause harm to everyone else because you've got stealth infections that you're not looking at. You'd want to be making sure that people have the opportunity to test for those things so that then if they did get sick their immune system had the chance to catch onto it and they wouldn't become affected themselves.   Dan Sipple: (22:05) Correct, but in doing all that this is the whole thing, that takes time, that takes resources, it takes patience, it takes more than spending seven minutes with a patient in a doctor's office, right? You can already see how nuanced it is and then when you look at it like that it's like well of course the powers that be want a quick fix, they want a quick intervention, that they can quickly roll out but it's a silly assumption to sort of present that that's going to be a long term solution because it ain't. The data's already showing that it isn't. If we model off other countries where they have high vaccination rates and yet high cases surely that's enough to kind of suggest that well, maybe the model that we have used isn't working and we've got to go back to the drawing board.   Dan Sipple: (22:52) Yeah, for me being naturopathically changed... Trained, sorry and having, full disclaimer, having gone through all this myself 10, 12 years ago even before I became a naturopath and decided to study, I discovered all this over time and I remember there was a time when I'd learn about the interleukins and the T helper cells and all of that type of thing and got super obsessed about how herbal medicine and botanicals and everything influenced that because I thought, "Well, if we can influence these different arms of immunity then we've got a chance against autoimmune disease, allergies, parasites, immune deficiency, and all those things.   Dan Sipple: (23:32) I'm still as passionate as I was then if not more. That's kind of where a lot of my work lies as a practitioner is dealing with I see all sorts of things of course but I see a lot of those people that were kind of like me, you know? Really caught in that stealth infection pattern where their immune systems just have become dysregulated. And it's not a quick fix. That's what I mean, it takes a lot of time and diligence and effort and money too. It's true, the functional testing and to get all that underway isn't easy and it's not cheap.   Mason Taylor: (24:06) And you can see it's like that not being subsidised and that not being covered-   Dan Sipple: (24:10) Exactly.   Mason Taylor: (24:11) You can see the, not to say the word but you can see the agenda behind it. If you're a smart person and you follow the science you can see the science lead you back to this place inevitably. Let's look at the maxim again. We went for starting like with colostrum and where else did you go with it?   Dan Sipple: (24:35) Yeah, I'm just thinking with the immune system getting those white blood cells primed I wouldn't so much in this scenario use the tonics. They're more for long term. I would want a quick, sharp, acute expansion and an attack of all those white cell troops so yeah, it's things like your echinacea root, your zinc, vitamin C. maitake mushroom might be a little bit more nuanced there.   Mason Taylor: (24:58) Yeah, maitake... That's what keeps coming to mind for me, turkey tail-   Dan Sipple: (25:02) Pigtail, maitake.   Mason Taylor: (25:03) That's actually another one. Yep.   Dan Sipple: (25:04) Yep. For sure. I'd keep it pretty basic in the acute. Longer term, different story. That's when I would probably expand it a bit more and zoom out.   Mason Taylor: (25:13) Okay, so we've got the immune maxim and then the maxim marathon. There's obviously going to be crossover. The way I see it, let's go a little bit into the nuance there. We keep on going on vitamin C and yeah, got to be onto vitamin C and so people are taking isolates, people are taking scorbix acid and then people are taking the lithosperic vitamin C and they're kind of good ones for the sprint, the maxim sprint when you have an outbreak and you go kind of, "All right, everyone we need you [inaudible 00:25:47]. We need to make sure you've got that echinacea in there. Maybe that's where you get the chi tonics like the astragalus. There's where I'd be coming from after having chats with my friends, my Chinese herbalist practitioner friends. They're saying you'd get astragalus always for the wei chi to put up the shield around yourself. [inaudible 00:26:10] getting in there and then they're also saying everyone should be on licorice, ginger and poreau just to augment the spleen because that just shows a major kink for this particular infection to get in and you can strengthen up that earth based system then you're going to have a much better potential to then have strong lungs metal element within the lungs and that puts up the wei chi shield so that you're less inclined to have that infection get into to begin with. Yeah so-   Dan Sipple: (26:40) Just having a thought coming through man as you're saying that back to the acute hypothetical treatment, tincture, whatever you want to call it I'm thinking along those lines too. Chinese skullcap, one of my favourites and I'd probably use that too long term because it's got a great effect on those T red cells so when you've had the initial sprint and then you want to come back and tell the troops to chill out and calm down and get back in and ready for the next one and keep them healthy, yeah Chinese skullcap all the way, probably with the astragalus, those two as the prime-   Mason Taylor: (27:14) [inaudible 00:27:14]?   Dan Sipple: (27:15) Yeah.   Mason Taylor: (27:15) Yeah, I definitely at the start of this I ordered a big bag for myself. Had never really taken it long term but when it all started going down I got onto that was the other recommendation, a good reminder. It's kind of like I've got sitting there. Got a big half a bag sitting there which I like coming out of winter it's like I'm enjoying putting it aside but for everyone in the northern hemisphere [inaudible 00:27:36] would be a good time to be getting onto those. Let's look, we've got the sprint and the marathon. I've been chatting to you a little bit about the nature of supplementation with say like vitamin C and zinc, how we can do it in a real kind of an isolated form versus what we're going to be skipping over to for the long term and the lifestyle term so we don't get stuck in isolation. Reduction isn't even when it's in the health based system so how would you differentiate the kind of the vitamin C types that were going in there?   Dan Sipple: (28:05) Yeah, so for the person whose immune system's burnt out, they've seen chronic infections before and then they come along and they hit something like this, that's... I would use it in the acute and the long term with that type of person. Same with zinc. I think if you're pretty healthy so to speak in that kind of context and we're looking at something long term that's where the fat solubles A and D I think are really good because again, it comes back to more immune regulation and strength, yeah? Vitamin A and vitamin D naturally come in cod liver oil which is always a good thing to do, five to 10 mil a day. That's usually what I sort of prescribe as far as patients go. Colostrum which I said before. I definitely would use that long term just to keep all the sort of armies of the immune system well nourished. We've got the innate side of the immune system which gets excited when it first encounters a pathogen and if that isn't capable enough to counter it, that's when it has to call on the adaptive side. That adaptive side is what houses the T cells, the B cells which contain antibodies.   Dan Sipple: (29:09) I'm doing a little series on Instagram at the moment all about T cells and that is what kind of makes up the T cell subsets so that's your TH1, TH2, these are just different armies of troops really for T cell responses, it gets quite sort of complex but it's cool to look at again how herbs influence different arms of immunity because people can also get stuck in patterns where their immune system stays skewed for whatever reason. Might be allergies and asthma and parasites can keep something called the TH2 cytokines polarised and when that happens it kind of imbalances other areas of the immune system so rather than it all being nice and even and ready to fire it can get skewed. Therefore, if that person then encounters a pathogen, they quite likely have a poorer response because that part of the immune system is deficient. You get me?   Mason Taylor: (30:03) Mm-hmm (affirmative).   Dan Sipple: (30:03) Yeah. Mushrooms are fantastic for that exact scenario by the way.   Mason Taylor: (30:09) Funny mushrooms. They're so good. I'm at this point and I don't even have to say it anymore, I've got everyone else going and saying it for me like it's just there's no point. There's no point in not being on mushrooms.   Dan Sipple: (30:20) We're not talk about white button mushrooms or psychedelic mushrooms, people.   Mason Taylor: (30:25) Chaga, turkey tail, reishi, maitake, shiitake-   Dan Sipple: (30:28) Cordyceps.   Mason Taylor: (30:30) [inaudible 00:30:30] cordyceps, lion's mane. They're all there. Yeah, that's like I think at the time we eventually were like everyone was just asking for a capsule from us. Even though we like the powder and being able to like... For me, I'm at the point just mega dosing just comes into relevance so often these days where I'm like I can just feel my body craving a heap teaspoon of chaga and then again in the afternoon. Then the capsules have made it pretty easy as well. Even though we've got to say it is a certain label dose but this is from my discretion, me going against the rules because we've got that as a listed medicine but for me I go against the rules and I'll double that and triple that regularly because you can get a sense of it and that's the beautiful thing about the mushrooms is they give you that feeling of protection within your body. You go, "Wow." You can sense the-   Dan Sipple: (31:26) It's tangible, yeah.   Mason Taylor: (31:27) Yeah, it's a tangible click up in activity and what I imagine is immunologic activity and that's why reishi's so great for people in the beginning especially in ashwagandha kind of falls into it as well because it's such a nervous system regulator that you can just drop into your body and get a sense of what you're actually feeling. That's why people get spiritual awakenings from reishi. It's not anything too woo woo, just the fact that you can get perception of your own self. You get perception of yourself and how you actually feel and how your nervous system feels, you unplug. That's the metaphorical unplugging from the matrix. You're not told how you feel, you actually, you get it. The mushrooms have got to be in there. I don't see any point in people not being on the mushrooms daily right now and it's another one like if you're actually wanting to protect people's... The cellular structure. You're actually trying to protect the treasures of the body. That would be and again, I'm biassed in that.   Mason Taylor: (32:25) There's so many things I'd be doing that that would be the first thing that would just be thrown out into the population completely subsidised a certain amount for everyone and then fully subsidised just start... The industry, that you could be creating, you're not going to... It might not work at the di dao mushrooms that I have but because there's a cap on the way that we can produce that. You can still do very decent large scale grown on wood mushrooms and you could... Again, you could be creating industry rather than destroying it right now and just what we know that's going to save so many people's immune systems.   Dan Sipple: (33:06) Oh mate, even IHCC, the shiitake extract, you know?   Mason Taylor: (33:14) You're right, that is the other one. This is where you can start going into the in that sprint. You can actually start going into the isolates that are coming out of them and isolate particular beta glucan's coming out of the mushrooms which makes sense and then when you go into marathon down the track. That's when you go back to di dao professionally full spectrum extraction.   Dan Sipple: (33:36) Yeah, and astragalus there too as you said, that'd be the... I think that's one that you do feel... It's not a mushroom but it's again like that tangible feeling, that is something that every patient says that they feel, that uplift and that chi and that's what you want if you're running that marathon and if you have a burnt out what we call T cell senescence so in other words if your T cell are exhausted and burnt out and senescent that is I've never seen anything act more specific to that. There are other herbs that can compliment it but yeah, I'm just such a fan of that herb and the research just continues to sort of come out in favour of it. I just think it's fantastic. So lucky we've got that tool.   Mason Taylor: (34:19) Yeah, that's one of the ones, the Taoists who the mushrooms are kind of spread out but astragalus was traditionally that one that was just quite available everywhere and it's like an honorary mushroom with its big blue [inaudible 00:34:30] and just its immunological adaptability. It's one of those ones in all accounts friends talking to Taoists, they say, "Yeah astragalus is the one I'll take every single day." Yeah, it does make sense and that's short term and long term. I mean you get onto that, that's why there's a reason we've said for the last I don't know, how long have I had astragalus? Like eight years? There's a reason I've said every single time we get to autumn you start smashing it. It's lung season. You start preparing your body for winter. It's the steel and it's a beautiful spleen tonic and it's a beautiful lung tonic and that's where you derive your surface immunity. That's where you derive your wei chi. Of course it makes sense to be getting onto that preventatively. Make no mistake guys, chi herbs, astragalus, the amount of data that there is on it and thousand upon thousands upon thousands of years of clinical usage, that much time of just like, the folklore behind it.   Mason Taylor: (35:33) That amount of experiential clinical data that we have is so overwhelming and it's so overwhelmingly effective, if we really wanted to protect the population that herb would be rolled out and become a national treasure. Perhaps we could find an Australian based tonic herb at the moment we don't know because we don't have a similar type of herbal tradition in Australia to the Taoist tradition. It's a very different approach and it was documented in a very different way. At the same time we could be on the hunt for like the adaptogens within the Australian system and then that does bring me to the vitamin C. I can see liposomal vitamin C, an isolate of vitamin C being used in the sort sprint just to get that spike and [inaudible 00:36:23] to see what you're using as well in that instance but for me I'm getting to the point where I feel uncomfortable using them and going to a whole fruit, whole food vitamin C, like a freeze dried cacadoo plum, freeze dried davidson plum, getting finger lime in there. Especially those Australian botanicals. I'm feeling so fantastic and then it's got all the pigments thrown in there. There's all those polyfenals going in just like feeding the bacteria.   Dan Sipple: (36:54) That's it.   Mason Taylor: (36:55) Got the natural fibres. It's how I feel about doing an isolate of a mushroom which can be good clinically. First just get the whole thing. There's all these substances in there that we haven't identified that are going to help bring greater long term efficacy. I think that's where we need to go with the vitamin C's. Get the camu camu. Freeze dried camu camu in there.   Dan Sipple: (37:15) Yes, 100%. Whole food vitamin C all the way. I think when you're out of the danger zone and if there's a useful semi long term... When by that I mean weeks, months potentially liposomal vitamin C. It's just in winter. Same as vitamin D. I've no problem with patients pumping those, couple of sprays under the tongue each day in winter and you can do it on and off in other months too but I think in those other months where your vitamin D stores are naturally going to raise you are going to be more outside, you're going to be exercising more, yada yada, I think that's... Yeah, it makes sense to sort of zoom out and use the whole plant extracts like you say because you're going to get that cross feeding with microbiome support which inevitably's going to influence the immune system at the end of the day anyway. So much from your microbiome... Sorry, so much of your immune system is influenced by your microbiome and they've shown that in rat studies where they'll compare rats the size of their spleen and thymus gland. Have I sent you this study? I don't think I have.   Dan Sipple: (38:16) They wiped out the microbiomes of these poor, poor mice, right? Compared the size of their spleen and their thymus to the groups that hadn't and it was like obviously significantly different and then they replaced the microbiome, re injected it back into these rats. Boom, spleen starts growing, thymus starts growing.   Mason Taylor: (38:39) Like a faecal transplant? How'd they inject it back in?   Dan Sipple: (38:41) Yeah, yeah. That's right. Yeah, it was a faecal transplant. This was done... Jason [Hurlac 00:38:45] put me onto this research. I think it was done a long, long time ago now but it was kind of I believe the initial sort of understanding around that time of how much gut bugs talked to the immune system. I see it man clinically. You see the patients, always one of them where at some point in their life the microbiome just gets absolutely trashed. The immune system goes down in response to it and once those bugs are gone, they're gone. Some species literally go extinct and we're what? Four or five generations now in antibiotic usage so we're already watered down, dwindled down when we start life. Like one course of antibiotics can do that let along 20 or 30 or 40 like some patients have come to me, they've got health issues by the time they're 20 or 30 or 40 and you're like, "How many antibiotic courses do you recon you've had in your life if you just had to guess?" If they're lucky it's five. Some people it's like 40. It's pretty devastating.   Mason Taylor: (39:47) Yes.   Dan Sipple: (39:47) Not to say that they don't have their use as well. There are times when antibiotics are useful.   Mason Taylor: (39:55) I mean this is again... It's like I feel you and thank you for saying that but it's also like of course. You start talking about this and I know we weren't going to even talk about this myopic approach and the vaccine going into it but at some point I think everyone needs to grow up and become a little bit more mature and remember that it's like with antibiotics. It's like you go, because you're bringing up an irresponsible usage of a drug that's saved a lot of people and you know you've had to say that little disclaimer because you know people's hearing, the cult like hearing will be there or the immature way of hearing it is going... I'm not saying you're saying this, I'm saying this.   Dan Sipple: (40:36) Oh no, yes.   Mason Taylor: (40:37) Is going to be, "Well if they've done this and they've done that how dare you badmouth something." It's the same with the vaccines. How dare you to badmouth this. It's like it's that full tribal... It's an immature way of your reacting. It's like if someone was to tell you they're taking it personally it's like rather than being in a community where you're able to actually to have some criticism based upon yourself which I'm coming from someone who doesn't like criticism at all but I've definitely appreciated and work on it, someone says to me, "It's amazing when you get really passionate and you get frustrated about things in the world but you know what? The excess of that frustration, it can be a little bit detrimental to yourself and those around you." That's like, that's the equivalent of having say, "Hey, a little bit of excess antibiotic, it's actually not that great for the people of the population and it's actually going to be really detrimental when we get these resistant bacteria and then eventually we do have these resistant viruses as we know. It's like, "How dare you? No, my frustration is done this for me and it's done that for me and how dare you question it. That's sacred to me. That's sacred. You're not allowed to touch that."   Mason Taylor: (41:42) Same thing so I mean it's a challenge for everyone listening to remember the Scott Fitzgerald quote, "The sign of true intelligence is to hold two opposing ideas in your mind at the same time and still function." If you are reacting one way or another or if you find yourself defensive, you're finding your way to seem progressive but you watch your internal dialogue, look for the gathering evidence. If you're trying to gather evidence rather than stay in a forward moving progressive, sometimes and I don't know and actually be, I don't know. You don't sit in the middle but when you are in the middle of two conversations, you're not fence sitting but you're able to handle the complex nuance within the conversation and if you can do that you can start peeking through and seeing these little sides of truth and you'd never try and just rest on one ultimate truth and I think that's what we definitely need to be doing here and I think in that sense let's go back to our maxims what are you putting in there? I know we got the 40 vegetables that we're trying to have every week as the rule for [inaudible 00:42:49]. I think it's great advice.   Dan Sipple: (42:51) Yeah.   Mason Taylor: (42:52) All different types of pigments and fibres and the appropriate amount of protein, appropriate amount of legumes. Kind of those ratios we discuss in the other podcast in order to how to get your microbial diversity up. What are those little extras? I know originally you liked Organify, red Organify to get the pigments in and get the gut kind of going up. What else are you liking in there?   Dan Sipple: (43:16) Depending on if I look at someone's microbiome and there's certain species that need nourishing that will determine if I go down that path with either red polyphenols or blue or combination.   Mason Taylor: (43:28) What about across the population if you're just speculating?   Dan Sipple: (43:30) It's more diet in that case. It's more just diversity in your diet, stop eating six vegetables per week and try and hit 40 different species, you know? I think even more zoomed out from that though unless nuance is the effect of stress and sleep on the immune system. Those, they're huge at the moment man. The patients that I'm seeing that are that torn and twisted and stressed and confused as a result of what's going on it's like that's immune deficiency right there. Stress disables immunity, period. If we're having the conversation about immune intelligence and immune capacity, it's like well we have to be talking about sleep. Are you sleeping right now or are you going to bed and scrolling through your phone and getting triggered by all this shit because most people are, right? It's not easy to just turn it off either you want to be informed regardless of which lens you're looking through. You want to know what's going on. That is a tricky thing to navigate but I have to obviously continually read or write that the importance nature time, slowing down, stress and yes, sleep on the immune system. The immune system recharges through the night.   Dan Sipple: (44:36) It's like hormones so if you're not sleeping your immune system is regardless of what... I've seen people on the best protocols. You can't fault it but stressed to the max and not sleeping and it's just like, "That stuff's not even..." it might be having some protective effect than without but it's definitely not putting you in a prime spot where your goals are sort of orientated. Again, disclaimer. That's been me in the past as well for sure.   Mason Taylor: (45:04) I mean, this is what I thought at the beginning. Imagine if immediately... I think the biggest step that they did was they took the six free mental health plans sessions from six to 10 sessions or something like that and then started educating about a little bit about like here's the helpline, here's lifeline, so on and so forth. Here's Beyond Blue. The only thing that made sense to me to go above and beyond, can you imagine if we just... I know this is full speculation and sometimes I like flying to Neverland and go, all right. We know that sleep and stress... We know we've got markers that can measure those. Something as simple as like I don't know, like an [inaudible 00:45:51] and there's apps. If you're in this technological place. I know a lot of people listening to this are like, "I don't want to be using technology, I don't want Bluetooth on me," but I'm talking about mass wide rollout. If you were put in charge of getting the help of our population up and able to handle this and stop the decimation that this is having on families, the decimation this is having on small businesses. Just the decimation this is having.   Mason Taylor: (46:17) People not appreciating the fact that, all right, cool. Some lives have been saved but what about those moments of like young families lives where we put this much stress at the beginning of what's already a stressful journey and then that completely gets them tripping over for a few years, that impacts their life forever. There's no measurement-   Dan Sipple: (46:33) As if life isn't stressful enough as it is for most families, right, financially, socially?   Mason Taylor: (46:39) I wonder if people would then go, "This is a violation of my rights," if you go, "Hi everyone, we're going to educate you on how to sleep better and we're going to... Again, we're going to subsidise and we're going to just, you know we're going to create some good internal business and create some money for smaller operators and we're going to get everyone on sleep markers and we're going to start incentivizing you to get those markers variable to you and rewarding you and stop bringing a pride in through our nation around optimising our sleep. We start by creating nonjudgement but hey everyone here's the education. Here's exactly what we know and then we're going to start allowing you to get... Reward yourself as you go along in that process and optimise your sleep. Can you imagine the insane amount of health and just how much our medical system would be alleviated long term if we did something like that?   Dan Sipple: (47:33) Oh, 100%. I remember someone saying years ago that I can't remember, it was literally like 10 years ago it was in a documentary and then some fellow was like, "Imagine if we had a crisis of health." It's just like, "Yeah." Lot of businesses are going to go down, a lot of corporations are going to lose out, you know? Yeah, it comes back to what you said at the end of the day not to get conspiratorial at all because that's not the objective of the conversation but it's like, "We know that there is an agenda."   Mason Taylor: (48:00) Yeah, of course.   Dan Sipple: (48:01) Because if there wasn't these things would be in the headlines and they would be campaigns towards bringing them to the forefront so yeah, those-   Mason Taylor: (48:10) As soon as anyone says it's too expensive we know they're full of crap now because look at how much money... How much debt we've been willing to just to go into and I'm not saying that's right or wrong. The other just those, yeah the measurements on stress. I mean, you've got the sauna behind you, we've got the capacity to go and utilise indigenous healing modalities revolving around meditation, going walkabout, connecting with nature. There could be this mass rollout of free information taking pride the same way that's like throughout China you'll se tai chi being done in the park and it's a part of their culture. This could've been an opportunity for Australian culture to go beyond just basically boozing at the pub and barbecues which I love both of them. I think they're wonderful but can you just imagine the cultivation of national pride as well as everything else. If everyone else wants to go down the medical intervention route as well that's like absolutely do it. Can you imagine though if they rolled out meditation? Started the subsidisation of [inaudible 00:49:24] practises? Can you imagine, and you can do it at home. Mass education just all of a sudden bring subsidising of the media outlets if they'd start. Give them perks if they start taking on pro bono advertising of particular elements of how to de stress the body through meditation courses.   Mason Taylor: (49:47) Getting a buddy, through yoga ninjas. Start producing fire infrared saunas here in Australia. Go get Sebastian producing the new... He's got new aurora ones that just like little domes. It's a local company, start getting those produced and start putting those in houses. Start moving them around through the community and start showing people with their little band or whatever it is with have a little Bluetooth and it's hooked up. I know then everyone will go, "I don't want my data... I don't want the government having my data of my sleep markers and my stress markers but regardless looking at a macro scheme here and it might see pie in the sky but I guess-   Dan Sipple: (50:31) Oh man. Sorry to cut you off.   Mason Taylor: (50:31) You're good.   Dan Sipple: (50:31) Even subsidising growing your own food in your own backyard, man, something so simple.   Mason Taylor: (50:39) This, we know it's a golden opportunity for if you're a huge business. We know what this would be a golden opportunity for if you were an actual human oriented and focused government. We know what it would be a huge opportunity for if you weren't selfish and stupid and you could think laterally and you weren't just a talking head and there's so many people raring up and it's dangerous. The lessons I always got from my dad... Sent my dad the samurai, just passed recently. He's like, "One thing you keep your head down long enough that you don't pop up against the grass and get your head taken off too early." Stay down and move with stealth and then pop up when it's absolutely necessary, do what you have to do and then go back down and move but it's-   Dan Sipple: (51:36) And they're making it hard to stay down.   Mason Taylor: (51:38) They're making it hard to stay down just because it's so blatant. I think for when everyone was to say what we've talked about here and I guess a lot of the point of this conversation is we've talked a little bit about immunity which also talking about a reality that worth manifesting and we're needing to do these kinds of things ourselves which we are doing. Trying to hopefully move away from the idea that it's taboo to start taking responsibility for your immune system and start doing things in conjunction to one another. Obviously it is. I said, "Why don't you guys give children and the mums if you say no jab, no pay, no welfare for single parents.   Mason Taylor: (52:20) Why wouldn't you give them reishi as well if we know that reishi mushroom has been proven to be that good to the immune system and they can't handle that level of nuance that they need to go on the attack basically." If you can't handle that level of conversation or if you're able, then well we know they can't have that level of conversation, I guess all I'm saying is we know now we're going to have to be the ones to carry that much nuance but it's also worth remembering that you don't want to be like them and find your identity based on creating opposition. I think that's what's also kind of I think going to get people being less effective and being hysterical and sticking their head up too early.   Dan Sipple: (53:06) 100%, 100%.   Mason Taylor: (53:07) What they're doing here is they're not... I know it feels threatening for a lot of people on both sides. It feels threatening to people on both sides and if you are in that state of feeling threatened, first of all you're putting everyone in danger because your immunological health is going to go down because you're stressed. First of all, stop it. Stop being selfish. The other point is there is a middle ground in order to be effective and there is no right answer in how to get in. Other people are like, "You have to get jabbed. You have to get up and come and march otherwise you consent." Do those things, by all means but I would recommend for everyone to stay within your own body. Stay within your own capacity to fuel who you are and don't fall into that finger pointing identity and that tribalism. You can still take action but-   Dan Sipple: (53:58) Doesn't have to be promoted necessarily just like in your own backyard, you know?   Mason Taylor: (54:04) This is going to be long term. This is long term stuff going on. You're going to have to start getting actioners and as you said, it's a good time to start getting into growing your own food. It's a really good time for cultivating... Appreciating the localization of your community and really start in placing a lot of value on the connections that you have made, the genuine connections that you have made, friends and family because yeah, community can be a house of cards sometimes especially when it's polarising things like this so you've got to nourish those golden relationships and not just the ones that seem ideologically driven. Yeah, I found my tribe. I found my tribe. They believe the same things I believe. It's like, "No, not that. Not that superficial connection just because you are ideologically driven. They're useful. Real genuine connection. So good for the immune system. Makes you feel safe doing that.   Dan Sipple: (55:01) Yeah, well it's also no good if everyone hangs out over this side and then the opposition all hangs out over this side, is it? That's just divisiveness and that's what we're seeing. We need to, as you said earlier hold that space for context and different lenses and that's obviously what's not happening now and I don't see any... The isolation, it crashes the immune system, right? It's like we know our kids need exposure, we know that your immune systems have to practise, they have to get exposed regularly to become educated and to stop... We can talk about the germ theory and the hygiene hypothesis and all that stuff and how that all came about with the context of autoimmunity. The immune system going awry and not recognising what's what anymore and not being able to tell the difference between a pathogen and your own tissue which we know is on the rise today. The point is-   Mason Taylor: (55:54) That's really on the rise now, isn't it?   Dan Sipple: (55:56) 100%, 100%. Yeah, there's people and again full disclaimer, this was me. I was immune deficient and autoimmune at the same time. See it all the time. What's that tell us? We've got immune dysregulation going on. Look, we're not saying we've got all the answers. That's not sort of what the conversation's about but in terms of isolation we know that causes stress, we know that's going to deplete indigenous immunity across the board.   Mason Taylor: (56:25) We also know we have leaders that can't handle any type of nuance and go and squash any type of conversation to get a multifaceted approach to what's going on here.   Dan Sipple: (56:36) Yeah.   Mason Taylor: (56:38) Without going into it with resentment because resentment is definitely going to harm you and harm your immune system and harm your liver but if you can find ways to get very excited about the fact that you're going to start... you need to be the one, regardless of what approach you're taking, you're going to need to take responsibility for-   Dan Sipple: (56:58) Responsibility, yeah.   Mason Taylor: (56:58) Yeah, being one of those people. Being part of the drive to increase the immunological capacity across the population within your community starts with you, starts with your family. Then starts with your community. I feel really good about [inaudible 00:57:12] and I imagine I'm sure you're feeling pretty good as well. I'm just realising the flag that we're waving and hoping to not be too... Oh gosh, what's the word? I don't want to be in opposition to anyone. I don't want to be inflammatory, I just I really enjoy just going and like waving the flag for personal responsibility, sovereignty, relationship with you. In this conversation relationship with the microbiome, the immune system and just give them herbs. That's the other thing, it's not simple. I've been kind of like, I don't know I've just been worried to kind of say it and we're talking about all these herbalists who are really conservative herbalists like Michael Tierra do it and even people like Stephen Buna who's quite like... He's clinical. They're both just like at the one point they're like, "Yeah, get on adaptogens." Buna's saying it specifically in relation to COVID. He's saying, "I'm sure it helps in a few of his posts but that's just where it gets to the point where it becomes very irresponsible not to be talking about these things. Oh, where's the data? It's like, "Guys, you are off your head.   Mason Taylor: (58:18) There is data emerging but you're off your head. That I'm science driven, where's the data kind of put a full stop and look at me. Look how smart I am because I'm able to ask someone for where's the data and not actually be able to think in that, I don't know in the way that life actually exists in consortium with many forces. Then yeah, sorry. I think you lack, I think you've pretty low IQ if that's your approach and you're defensive and I think you'd probably have a lot more fun in life and have a lot more connection if you've got out of that tribal way of looking and yeah, people just should be on adaptogens to get onto it and then the-   Dan Sipple: (59:00) What have you got to lose? That's the thing, it's like what have you got to lose? It's not a high risk intervention like other certain things, is it?   Mason Taylor: (59:05) I don't think so. I'm like well no, it's not. Zinc's the other one that's getting thrown around at the moment. What's the type of zinc-   Dan Sipple: (59:18) I love zinc man. It's zinc and copper balance is a big thing. I always look at that with the context of patients and immune system issues. What we typically see most of the time I'd say is more of a tilting towards a copper excess and a zinc deficiency but you can also see just a deficiency of both or people can just be normal and still have immune issues but their zinc and copper not be an issue. Zinc deficiency is probably more the common out of the two. That can come back to obviously diet, zinc lost due to certain conditions, [inaudible 00:59:53] disorder being one of them, heavy metal competition, the soils being a poor source of zinc these days, the rise of plant based diets which might have great clinical usage in some areas but yeah, when it comes to something like zinc deficiency that's something that I do often observe in people that are purely plant based. Yeah, that who

Listen to Karta Purkh Singh Khalsa discuss natural healing and herbalism with Heather. Understand more of the ancient wisdom of nature, and why our bodies know how to respond to medicinal plants. KP was the first person to be professionally certified in both herbalism and Ayurveda in the U.S., and he may inspire you to reflect on our modern relationship with herbs and herbalism. You'll be wondering where your ashwagandha came from. Learn how nature and plant medicine can heal us.  In this episode, Heather and KP discuss: How KP turned to natural healing from a childhood illness A renaissance of modern herbalism How the pandemic has influenced the sales of herbal products Ancient vs. modern approaches to healing Why grandma herbalists, clan herbalists and professional herbalists exist everywhere except North America and why we could benefit from such spreading basic knowledge of plant medicines How natural medicine is impacting the environment The quality of medicinal properties in the natural medicines we buy Karta Purkh Singh Khalsa, A.D., D.N.-C., R.H., is an Ayurvedic doctor, herbalist, nutritionist, yoga teacher and educator who has been making holistic health approaches palatable to the modern mind for over 50 years. He was the first person to be professionally certified in both herbalism and Ayurveda in the U.S. He is president emeritus of the American Herbalists Guild, and director emeritus of the National Ayurvedic Medical Association. He was the principal medical formulator for Yogi Tea, a medicinal tea company, and is the curriculum director and principal instructor for several professional Herbalist, Nutritional Therapy and Ayurveda training programs. Check out his book, The Way of Ayurvedic Herbs, co-authored with Michael Tierra and learn about his training programs.  https://internationalintegrative.com  Heather Grzych is the author of The Ayurvedic Guide to Fertility and the host of the Wisdom of the Body podcast. A board-certified Ayurvedic practitioner, she bridges the worlds of conventional and alternative medicine to help women and men heal their physical and emotional lives. Heather is on the board of directors for the National Ayurvedic Medical Association (NAMA) and has consulted with doctors, governments, and insurance companies. She offers virtual consultations and programs worldwide. www.heathergrzych.com   Connect with Heather: Instagram.com/heathergrzych Facebook.com/grzychheather   Book an Ayurvedic consultation or connection call with Heather:  https://www.heathergrzych.com/book-online   Join the Wisdom of the Body club on Clubhouse: https://www.joinclubhouse.com/club/wisdom-of-the-body   This podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only.

Making your own medicines can be a fun and rewarding activity. No to mention gets you closer to nature. There are several common herbal preparations that once you know will greatly simplify how to take your herbs. In this episode we cover:Hot InfusionsCold InfusionsDecoctionsChurnasMedicated OilsMedicated GheeTincturesCapsules and TabletsNow when you see that article listing the top 5 herbs for health, you will have some ideas of how you could take that particular herb. My favorite Herbal resource books:The Yoga of Herbs by Dr Vasant LadThe Way of Ayurvedic Herbs by Michael Tierra and Karta Purkh Singh KhalsaAyurvedic Medicine by Sebastian PoleHaven't gotten your FREE Ayurveda Starter Kit with tongue scraper and mala beads? Order yours at https://ayurvedalifeschool.com/freestarterkitReady to put your habits into practice? Join the 28 Day Immersion and see your life change. https://ayurvedalifeschool.com/ayurvedaimmersionConnect with me online:https://ayurvedalifeschool.comSocial Media:Ayurveda Life SchoolNamaste.

Five of cups! Let's go on a journey together and expand our view of herbs with The Herbal Tarot by Michael Tierra.  You can purchase the deck & book together: planetherbs.com/shop/herbal-tarot-deck-spirit-of-herbs-companion-book-set/  And remember to become a patron of Herbal Marie today to really help this herbal podcast grow! www.patreon.com/herbalmarie  --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/herbalmarie/message

In this rich conversation, Mason sits down with the brilliant herbalist Sajah Popham; Founder of School Of Evolutionary Herbalism and Organic Unity in southern Oregon, for a journey into the otherworldly space of plant alchemy, herbal remedies, spagyric medicine, and the inextricable relationship between man and our magically healing plant friends. Geared with both the Science and esoteric understanding of herbal medicine and trained in real alchemy by the great Robert Bartlett, Sajah brings a holistic understanding of the universal truths and principles that govern plants and healing. Sajah's depth of knowledge and reverence for plants as healers is truly a gift to this world. A guardian of the plant kingdom, he walks his path devoted to healing and teaching people that plants are not something we use mindlessly and forget about once healed. He reminds us they are our allies, guides, and protectors, that we should seek to understand and develop a connection that deepens with time. Make sure you tune in for this one!   "If we can imagine back to the first human beings ever to exist on planet earth and think of who was the first teacher of herbal medicine? Well, it was the plants themselves. And that's something that I really want to come back to in my own work."   -Sajah Popham   Mason and Sajah discuss: Spagyrics and the process of creating medicine. Medical astrology. Medical Alchemy. The three philosophical principles of alchemy (Tria Prima). How do we bring together science and spirituality? Universal themes among ancient medicine systems. Esoteric knowledge and how it relates to plants and healing. The importance of developing a relationship with the plants we utilise as medicines. Looking at people and plants through an energetic lens. The three Doshas of Ayurveda. Integrative medicine; Eastern and Western systems of medicine coming together. Returning to the heart space and sitting in earth energy for healing.    Who is Sajah Popham? Sajah Popham (B.S. Herbal Sciences), founder and core instructor of Organic Unity and School of Evolutionary Herbalism, is a student of the universal truths found within both ancient and modern herbal traditions from around the world. The focus of his work is on integrating ancient teachings for a new paradigm of plant medicine, one that is truly holistic in its honoring of the spirit, energetics, and body of both people and plants. His unique synthesis bridges herbalism not only east and west, but north and south, above and below, into a universal philosophy that encompasses indigenous wisdom, Ayurveda, western Alchemy and Spagyrics, Astrology, clinical herbalism, and modern pharmacology. Sajah’s vitalist approach utilizes plants not only for physiological healing and rejuvenation, but for the evolution of consciousness, for a truly holistic practice of plant medicine. Sajah’s teachings embody a heartfelt respect, honor and reverence for the vast intelligence of plants in a way that empowers us to look deeper into the nature of our medicines and ourselves. He lives in southern Oregon with his wife where he teaches at his school, makes spagyric medicines, and practices his art.   Resources: School Of Evolutionary Herbalism Facebook (School Of Evolutionary Herbalism) Instagram (School Of Evolutionary Herbalism) YouTube (School Of Evolutionary Herbalism) Evolutionary Herbalism Book The Plant Path Podcast with Sajah & Whitney Popham Organic Unity- Alchemical Herbal Extracts   Q: How Can I Support The SuperFeast Podcast? A: Tell all your friends and family and share online! We’d also love it if you could subscribe and review this podcast on iTunes. Or  check us out on Stitcher, CastBox, iHeart RADIO:)! Plus  we're on Spotify!   Check Out The Transcript Here:   Mason: (00:00) Hey Sajah. Welcome, man.   Sajah Popham: (00:01) Thank you.   Mason: (00:02) All right. How are you doing down there in Oregon? Can you tell us a little bit about where you're at, where you've landed in the world and what you're up to there?   Sajah Popham: (00:11) Yeah. I live in the Southern part of Oregon State here in the United States and I live out here on 120 acres with my wife, Whitney, where we host our school called the School of Evolutionary Herbalism, where we teach a lot of workshops to herbalists and people wanting to really reconnect with the wisdom of plants and different traditions from around the world that have used plants as medicines. And we also spend a lot of our time out here preparing spagyric herbal extracts for our business, Organic Unity, which is an aspect of the alchemical tradition from Europe and very specific methods of preparing herbs into medicines that concentrates their physical properties, as well as their spiritual and energetic properties as well.   Mason: (01:02) What made you get into spagyrics?   Sajah Popham: (01:03) [inaudible 00:01:03].   Mason: (01:05) Yeah. Awesome. And I forgot but I think I'd mentioned before we jumped on and coming up to Oregon to go to the American Herbal Guild Symposium in October. Don't know if you're going to be around there, but looking forward to going out to get out there, but I meant the spagyrics. I'm really interested to hear what got you into that aspect of herbalism, because I don't know what it's like in the US whether it's spreading a little bit. I'm sure thanks to yourself, it has, but it hasn't permeated just the everyday herbal community here in Australia.   Sajah Popham: (01:39) Yeah. Well, I would definitely say that's true out here in the States as well. When we're talking about alchemy and spagyrics we're getting on a pretty fringy part of herbal medicine that I feel very committed to opening up more to the verbal world. For me alchemy and spagyrics was really the missing link. It was the missing piece of the puzzle for me in terms of my plant path, my journey into the world of herbal medicine. And I was studying at Bastyr University up there in Seattle and in the herbal sciences programme. And for me, as the programme implies, it's a very scientifically oriented programme. So we're studying the botany and the chemistry and the pharmacology and plant constituents and how to best extract them and anatomy and physiology and biochemistry, and a very scientific model of herbal medicine, which I love. I really loved science.   Sajah Popham: (02:45) I love that whole aspect of it. But during that time as well I was really deepening just in my own direct connection with the plants. And I think a lot of people experienced this where our lives are changed when a plant heals us. It's like sometimes we're going through our life and we're having a hard time with something, maybe something in our body, maybe something in our heart or mind, and then a plant comes to us and we take that plant into our body and it fundamentally changes who we are and heals us. And so for me having this deep spiritual connection to the plants and this very scientific model of understanding plants, created this little rift inside of me, well, maybe a big rift. It was like, how do I bring these two together? How do I bring together the science and the spirit of herbal medicine?   Sajah Popham: (03:41) And I think that's something that's going on on a cultural level as well, just how do we bring together science and spirituality? And that led me to study a lot of different medical traditions, spiritual traditions and eventually that led me to Tuscany, Italy, where I was doing a study abroad trip there. And there was a man that talked about medical alchemy, medical astrology, and he was talking about just all this very esoteric knowledge and how it relates to plants and healing. And I remember it just really clicking something into place for me because in alchemy they utilise chemical terminology to denote a spiritual principle. And that really made a lot of sense to me and how they had methods of preparing plants that would concentrate their chemistry that works in the body, but also methods of concentrating the spiritual properties of the plants and how those influence our minds, our emotions, and ultimately our spiritual growth and evolution.   Sajah Popham: (04:56) And that became a very fundamental model for how I perceived plants and practised herbal medicine. I didn't really want to just approach herbal medicine to "fix what's broken in our bodies" because they did so much more for me in my own plant path. I wanted to assist people in that deeper connection to the true self, deeper connection to nature, deeper connection to the spirit that's in all of life. And I believe that the plants have an incredible capacity to do so. And it was through the spagyric preparations that I found it best to help people in that way.   Mason: (05:37) And just for my sake, can you take me a little bit through that preparation model? I understand it from way back in a heavily alchemical process, it's probably not something that downloads easily down to a couple of sentences or paragraphs, but just to understand what that process is, if you mind.   Sajah Popham: (05:54) Yeah, sure. Well, everything in alchemy, they say everything in nature, or everything in creation has three fundamental principles. What they call Tria Prima or the three philosophical principles, and in alchemy, they see that as they call sulphur, mercury and salt, and this correlates to the soul, the spirit and the body of any particular thing, whether that's a person or a plant or a stone or whatever it is, everything in nature has these three principles and we can see that threefold pattern reflected in a whole lot of different traditions around the world. Ayurveda has its three doshas. Chinese medicine has its three treasures. Astrology has its three modes. There's all manner of Holy trinities, so to speak in different medical, scientific and spiritual traditions. So in spagyrics, which is plant-based alchemy, they say that the sulphur, mercury and salt of a plant corresponds to the essential oils, the alcohol-soluble constituents and the mineral salts.   Sajah Popham: (07:07) And so in the spagyric process, the sulphur, mercury and salt are the oil, the alcohol and the minerals are all separated from the plant through different techniques. The distillation, fermentation, rectification, calcination, disillusion these different spagyric processes whereby these three fundamental principles of a plant are separated purified, and then recombined back together into what is said to be an evolved expression of that plant and the soul, the spirit and the body of the plant is present in the medicine. It acts upon the human soul, spirit and body as well. And so in that way, spagyrics are said to have an evolutionary function or the way the old alchemists put it, it has an initiatic virtue, meaning that it's initiating us into a higher level of consciousness. And the thing that's really cool about the that really was what hooked me was, when I was in college and learning how to make herbal medicines, I always wanted the strongest medicine I could get.   Sajah Popham: (08:22) And so I would tincture it and re-tincture it and cook it down and boil it in water and extract it and vinegar and put it all together and put a flower essence in there. It's just like I was crazy. I just wanted the whole plant there, but what always ended up happening is I had to throw the plant material away and it always really bothered me. I always felt like there was something there that I wasn't getting. And in the spagyric process, we never throw the body of plant have away. I would say that has the salt principle. And so in spagyric works, once a plant is extracted we'll actually burn the plant down to an ash and then take that ash and run it through some further processes that basically yields crystals.   Sajah Popham: (09:14) We extract crystalline mineral salts from the plant that they say, that's the purified body of the plant. And when you have that body of the plant, you're anchoring the intelligence of that plant into its physical body so that then it can influence our physical body in a much deeper way. So we don't throw anything out in the spagyric process. You really get the whole plant. And when you get the whole plant, it's going to work on the whole person. And that to me is one of the foundational elements of what it means to practise holistic herbal medicine.   Mason: (09:52) Thanks for explaining it like that as well. That's landed with me so hard, especially with the throwing out the herb after you're done with a tea or a tincture, or maybe doing a vinegar extraction or anything like that. The best we can do here is just get them back into circulation, composting them. But there's this saying, so [inaudible 00:10:09] especially about we've got like in the West, we can all probably agree that we've got that scientific way and reductionist way of approaching herbalism down-packed and gone for the chemistry. The aspect that you're talking about and connecting with the spirit and the personality of the herb, the patterns of the herb, that part of the herb where you can actually develop a relationship. Generally you can say that's a bit deficient.   Mason: (10:40) Now, for some reason, I've just started thinking about an array of people out there who are in that frame of mind, where it's like a pill for the ill, "I've got a symptom and I need to knock it on the head." Now that's like in health food stores in major cities, et cetera, there seems to be a glass ceiling on actually being able to go and connect with the spirit of the herb or get out of that mentality of just trying to fix yourself, trying to cure these symptoms. Stay with me because I don't have a question. I'm just going through something here. I'm really interested in talking to ways and it seems like we're already talking to it, to continue to bridge that gap, especially for people who are in the trenches of cities.   Mason: (11:37) I know I go off on tangents and some pretty elaborate tangents and recommendations. And I had a lot of moms. Moms come to me and be like, "Mason, cool, your jets now. I got four kids and I need something solid that I can get into now." Let's talk to that a little bit. Let's talk to that in practises that can transfer across whether someone's like in the 9:00 to 5:00 grind in the city or in the country, what are the best ways you find to bridge that gap from the mentality of "fix me" to "let's grow and explore and evolve", especially with getting to know herbal personalities.   Sajah Popham: (12:17) Yeah. Great question. I think there's some layers to that. On the one hand you have people that maybe are experiencing health issues, health concerns, and they'd like to take a more alternative route which it's funny that we call it alternative, but it really should be this normal-   Mason: (12:38) Yeah. And you're right.   Sajah Popham: (12:38) ... to work with nature. And I don't necessarily... It's not everyone's path to have these deep spiritual connections to the plants and to the vegetable realm and I don't think that that would negate the efficacy of someone working with plants in that way. And then on the other end of that spectrum, we have people that are maybe naturopaths or clinical herbalists or the plant people. And those tend to be the people that I'm more communicating with. And so one of the things that I always like to encourage people that are working with the herbs in a deeper way, that we want to have a relationship with those medicines, we want to have a relationship to the plants that we're utilising as medicines.   Sajah Popham: (13:33) And it reminds me of something one of my teachers, Matthew Wood says. He says, "Don't be just an armchair herbalist." And I always really liked that because he says, "There's some herbalists out there that just sit in their arm chair and read the books and do the bookwork and the studies, which is great. But that relationship with the medicines we use takes on this whole other level, when we go out into the forest and we find the herb and we pick it and we eat it and we make medicine out of it. And maybe we sit with it and pray with it and make offerings and go through this deeper process of having a relationship with that plant that we're working with. And then when we get that remedy to someone there's an added something special to it, there's an added power to it because we know that plant and that plant knows us. And so we have a deeper connection and relationship to it."   Sajah Popham: (14:35) And so one of the things that I think also the different element of your question that I was hearing there is, to me, I'm just thinking of folks living in the city and maybe not having very deep relationship to the natural world. To me, this is one the core sicknesses or imbalances that I think is permeating the world right now is this disconnect from the natural ecosystem that is Gaia and it's ironic because the human being is as much a part of nature as everything else.   Sajah Popham: (15:19) It's just that we have created this world. I always say we use the terms world and earth very similarly. But to me they're very different. To me, the world is what is the human mind made manifest. So we think of a city. You're in a city on the concrete and there's the lights and the advertising comes in, the signs and you're literally surrounded by the human mind made into manifest form into something physical, like someone had the idea to make that sign or create this light or this shop and all these things in there. And it's like, mind, mind, mind. It's like, we're surrounded by the human mind and that's the world. But the earth to me is something... The human mind didn't create the earth, something greater than the human mind created the earth.   Sajah Popham: (16:15) And I always say it's like the earth is created by the mind of the creator, but it's not really a mind, it's a heart. And so to me, it's like the earth and the natural world of which we're a part of, is an expression of the divine of the love of creation and that when we surround ourselves by a natural habitat, that it strengthens this connection to the human heart. And it's the split between the world and the earth, and the mind and the heart, and the science and the spirit. It's that division that I think is making people sick on a lot of different levels. And so to me, just by having a deeper connection and relationship to the natural world that is giving us life every day, it's like we're all breathing the same air. We're all drinking the same water. We're all being nourished by this food that's grown from the earth. It's like we're all a part of that.   Sajah Popham: (17:22) And so when we bring that into a greater level of awareness, I think there's a reassembling of the human spirit that happens. And I think there's something, a deep healing that happens in our hearts where we feel connected to something greater than ourselves. And I think it's interesting that in our modern culture, that we see so much depression and so much anxiety and so much heart disease. I think these are physiological expressions of a split in the location of our consciousness, of being up in the mind and being in the world as opposed to being in the heart and being in the earth. So that's what comes to mind just based on what you were mentioning there.   Mason: (18:13) And did you get interested in herbalism especially, and immersing yourself in nature? Were you having the experience of the separation yourself?   Sajah Popham: (18:22) Oh, absolutely. I was not raised by hippie parents or in the woods or anything. I grew up in a little suburb between Tacoma and Seattle, Washington. I grew up in about as a conventional lifestyle, as one could imagine eating fast food and going to public schools, nothing too special about me.   Mason: (18:49) I'm sure there's lots of special values. I feel something similar then in terms of growing up on the fast food. Growing up I can one-up you and say I went to Catholic school. And so what I'm interested in is talking more about... I don't know about you, but in my early days, I felt even my mind, I sensed I wanted to be unified once again within myself and with the world. I could still feel an excess of that mind energy, being attached to arriving at a place where I can now I'm unified. Almost in a melancholic way that was like, not that I'd actually consciously think this and that makes me better and more in the know than other people. And it was a really fun and interesting process to feel as the mind and body unity began to occur that I've started really falling in love more and more with that process rather than the destination of unifying. And actually there is no destination there at all. Are you feeling me on that one?   Sajah Popham: (20:00) Absolutely. Yeah. The way that I think of it especially in the health world, and in the spiritual world as well, I feel like it's so easy for our minds to create some sort of, like you said, a destination, an idealised image of the self, of perfect balance, and we want that so bad. We want that vitality. We want that rejuvenation. We want that perfect health and balance and harmony, and maybe we'll get there for a moment. And then the wind will blow and then create... It's like everything's in constant flux. I love that saying that the only thing that doesn't change is that everything changes. And it makes me think about the Ayurvedic concept of doshas.   Sajah Popham: (21:00) These three doshas Ayurveda is really the basis of their anatomy and their constitutional theory and the way they classify herbs of these three doshas of Kapha, Vata, and Pitta, which are composed of our five elements of nature, ether, air, fire, water, and earth. And I love that definition of dosha is basically that which goes out of balance. And so it's the foundation of the way they understand the human organism is that balance itself is a changing phenomenon and that we can only get to a certain place for so long and then that's going to change. And so I think that's always an interesting thing to consider in regards to our health, that there is no end goal, there is no peak of the mountain. It's like we'll get to the peak of the mountain, but then we're going to see four or five more after that, if that makes any sense.   Mason: (22:05) Yeah, it does. And I'm only in here talking about gaining relationships with herbs, especially before you were talking about that moment, where if you have a relationship with the herb and the fact that you go through a healing journey with it, or if it heals you or if it helps you gain access to something within your body, then all of a sudden that relationship, it's solid, it's spiritual, you're mates with that herb. I've definitely experienced that. And especially in talking about the Western mindset of coming to herbs is just "fix me". And especially with when for me you're approaching herbalism heavily from the tonics, you're getting into Daoist tonic herbalism in the beginning and really enjoying that and still enjoying that where that sits within a holistic lifestyle, but starting to get schooled a little bit on the fact that there is no balance point. The herb's aren't going to get you balanced. Sometimes they might actually take you off balance so that you can further understand how to come back into balance within yourself.   Mason: (23:21) When I began to open up with understanding the varying ways that I can have a relationship with a plant or with a herb and what we were talking about before we jumped on, which I'd like to weave into this is moving away from the textbook. This herb reishi, whatever, is good for the heart, tones the liver, does this to the immune system, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. "Okay, cool. I'm going to use that herb to fix me in this or to get me a balance in this," but then all of a sudden you start actually, with any herb, you start actually introducing it in a way that gives you the opportunity to actually feel what it's doing, and then what your body's doing with that herb. The herb all of a sudden opens up and you go, "Okay, there's no black and white uses when it comes to this herb." And you realise you've opened up a can of worms way bigger than just taking a herb.   Sajah Popham: (24:14) Oh yeah. Really good question. It brings multiple points to mind, the first of which is that no one herb is right for everyone. I think one of the things with... Well, let me backtrack a little. I think one of the things that's important to understand about, I would say all traditional systems and models of herbal medicine, is that there's always a context within which a plant is taken into the human body. And most traditions that utilise plants as herbs are just using herbs. They're also implementing diet and nutrition as a major part of their medical practise. And I think this is a critical facet that I think is overlooked often. And no one likes it when I say that, because everyone just wants the magic bullet. If we want them to take the three drops of the tincture and all of your ails and problems are just going to magically disappear and you don't have to change. And I think that's the big piece here is that we all want a quick fix and we want to have a healthy life, but maybe we don't want to change the way we live our life that has led us to the particular state of health or lack of health that we currently have.   Sajah Popham: (25:42) And so that's one thing that I always encourage my students and people that I talk to about herbs is if the root cause of, say someone has a chronic digestive symptom, for me, I'm not going to give them some peppermint or fennel or some bitters. I'm going to do a really in-depth assessment of like, "What are you eating every day that might be contributing to this problem? Because it doesn't matter how many herbs I give you. If you eat something that's upsetting your digestive system, am I really helping you by giving you herbs? Actually I could be enabling you to continue living an unhealthy lifestyle that could lead to a deeper, more serious issue in the long term." So for me, it's always taking a step back and looking at someone's overall lifestyle and doing that detective work of like, "Okay, what is it that they're doing that might be contributing to this?" Of course we use herbs to help, but the herbs, aren't just the sole focus of it.   Sajah Popham: (26:51) The sole focus is giving people strategies ultimately for how they can optimise living in a very healthy way. So that's the first point that comes to mind. Second point that comes to mind for sure, this is one thing that comes up for me. It's one of my little pet peeves in the herb world and it's the question that I always get, "Oh, what's that herb good for?" To me, I think of plants like people, and that's just the way that I tend to think of them. And I always jokingly say, whenever I talk about this, I say, "You'd never go up to someone when you first meet someone and be like, "Oh, hey. My name's Sajah. What's your name? Oh, Hey Bill. Oh. So what are you good for?" You know, with like, we would never say that to someone but we say it about the plants all the time. And so to me, I'm less concerned about what a plant is good for. I'm more concerned about who that plant is.   Mason: (27:53) Can I just point, Sajah, when you bring that up, I don't know whether this is a bit glum, but I think there was a time when humans would talk about other humans that way. And there are probably times when we want to be moving, like humans want to be learning from or moving on from, and I feel like this really brings into that whole, it's that the herbs are working for us. That slave mentality rather than an actual unity, right?   Sajah Popham: (28:19) Totally. And to me it's like... And I think that's the thing that it's easy to get stuck in the world of herbal medicine, especially in the realm of, you had mentioned the Chinese tonic herbs and there's this whole world of products, basically a product industry, a multi-billion dollar product industry that says, "Hey, take these herbs and you'll have more energy and you'll sleep better and you'll have a better mood and you'll be smarter and run faster. And everything is going to be okay and you don't have to change. And this herb is good for everyone or this herb is good for this or good for that." And what ends up happening is we lack specificity in our practise of herbal medicine.   Sajah Popham: (29:18) So this brings me to talking about traditionally, when a traditional herbalist looks at someone and here I'm really referring to traditional Western herbalism, to Chinese medicine, Ayurvedic medicine, things like that. They always understand the uniqueness of the person in front of them. So they're not saying, "Oh, this person has a urinary tract infection. Okay, let's give them all of these herbs that are good for a urinary tract infection." They're going to say, "Oh, here's a unique person with a unique type of urinary tract infection. And we want to select those herbs that are going to be specifically suitable for this unique person with this unique condition." And this is one of my problems with the use this herb for that symptom mindset, is that it often times lacks this level of specificity. And one of the simple ways that we can get more specific is looking at people and plants through an energetic lens, meaning what is the temperature and the moisture quality of the symptom and of that plant?   Sajah Popham: (30:40) So take a respiratory tract infection. This is usually one of the easiest organ systems for people to really understand the importance of energetics. Say you've got two different people and from a Western perspective, they both have, say, bronchitis or some respiratory tract infection. And one person, when you hear them cough, it sounds really dry and really wheezy and really harsh and intense, and they've got a bright red face and their tongues really red, and they feel really overheated. The other person say when they cough, it sounds really gurgly and wet and cold, and they feel a bit pale and they feel cold and their tongue is white and has a thick coating and pale. And when they do expectorate something, it's got a thick white pasty look to it.   Sajah Popham: (31:39) This is the difference between what we would call basically a hot-dry cough versus a cold damp cough. Now, if we think of the way a lot of herbalists are trained, they say, "Oh, this person has bronchitis. They have a cough. So we want to give them an expectorant." And the expectorant category herbs are just, those that support the cough reflex and are typically used to treat respiratory tract type infections. And in that whole category. So you go to your herb book and you look up expectorants and in that category, and I might list herbs that maybe you all don't use there in Australia, but here in North America, you might see herbs like Lobelia, and Osha, and Lomatia, wild cherry and Coltsfoot and licorice, and marshmallow and pleurisy root and Elecampane. These are all herbs under the expectorant category. And someone might just say, "Okay, we'll just pick some expectorants because these are all herbs that are good for a cough, right?"   Sajah Popham: (32:43) But if you look at that list, you see marshmallow root right next to Lobelia right next to something like Elecampane. These are three very different types of expectorants. If you give the marshmallow root to the person with a cold damp cough, it's going to make it worse because marshmallow is a very moistening demulcent type remedy. If you give it to the person with the hot, dry cough, they're going to love you forever because it's going to soothe and cool, everything down and moisten the dried mucus membrane, and really feel very supportive for them. Conversely, if you give the Elecampane to someone with the hot, dry cough, it's going to be very aggravating because Elecampane has these pungent hot oils and resins that are very stimulating and can be very irritating to someone with too much heat and too much dryness in the respiratory tract. But to give it to them with the cold damp cough, and it's going to help loosen up all that phlegm, it's going to make the cough more productive, it's going to stimulate the bronchial tree and the mucosal membranes to clear all of that damp stagnation out of the tissues.   Sajah Popham: (33:58) I like to mention that because there's deeper layers of specificity with herbal medicines. And I think it's very important to match the herbs to the person. And this is where we start to run into some problems where they say, "Oh, this herb is good for this condition." That's what can lead to herbs, maybe being used haphazardly, herbs, as you said, that might actually lead to further imbalance if it's not suitable for that person's constitution. And that's where, to me, this integration of herbal energetics is super critical if we're going to practise holistic herbal medicine. And really it's like... The energetics was practised in Western herbal medicine all the way up to the early 1900s.   Sajah Popham: (34:56) It's really over the last 100 years or so that we see as this biomedical model has come into place. As we focus more on constituents, as we focus more on the chemistry and such, I think we've lost touch with some of these traditional models of looking at herbs. And I'm all about both. I'm not trying to bash the science in any ways. I think that's all great, super useful, and we know more about some herbal medicines than we have ever before and how they work. It's great stuff, but I don't think we have to throw away thousands of years of accumulated knowledge.   Mason: (35:38) I hear you on that one. And I already am looking at the name of your company, Organic Unity, I mean, having a unity spec there in the middle, I love it because you find an integrated model. I mean, there's a lot of people talking about integration which is amazing. And I like looking at that more and more because it gives me... For me, it gives me something to attune to, and I can really... When I get into my envisioning of my dreaming of where I'm moving towards an integrated model, I just see. As you were saying, because growing up, I know how much looking at constituents and looking at the chemistry of say in this example of a herb, how useful it is.   Mason: (36:17) And in fact rather than... Because what I did for a while there is I kicked back completely against like a modern medical or modern scientific model just because I'm just like, "It's the devil. I don't want to be identified with it in any way." And so I tried to kick back and identify being someone who doesn't identify with the modern science and medical system, which was just a mess, rather than being a nice, calm, centred person who was just like, "I'm just going to contemplate where this has led me in for me." As you were saying, we can understand so much of what herbs are doing within the body chemically. That can be a catalyst for me in considering deeper and more subtle energetic actions that the herb has within different layers of the body. Have you experienced that dance between those two polars?   Sajah Popham: (37:23) In terms of the chemistry and the more subtle properties?   Mason: (37:28) Yeah.   Sajah Popham: (37:30) Yeah, absolutely. For me, because I was predominantly initially trained in the scientific model, the last number of years for me has been becoming more aware of that connection between really learning the herb from the herb itself, even just through tasting it. One thing I like to talk about is we can understand an herb really almost all the way through simply by tasting it and by understanding what happens through the different properties of those tastes. So for example, you taste something that's very pungent and spicy and hot that typically will stimulate digestive secretions, have a carminative action, typically stimulate circulation of the blood. Oftentimes they're very warming, energetically, oftentimes drying energetically versus you taste something very bitter that typically indicates that it's gonna act upon the liver and gallbladder, it's going to have a cooling drying, energetic action, typically draws the vital force down and in oftentimes have antiseptic properties.   Sajah Popham: (38:46) So we can really just through tasting the herbs, understanding the complexity of their tastes through being sensitive to our bodies, being able to be aware of our organ systems and how they're changing, being aware of even our mind and our emotions. For me, it's like when I take a herb, I really do my best to just be very aware of what's going on inside of the wholeness of my being. I really want to feel and understand how that plant is influencing the totality of who I am. And there was another thing that you mentioned there that I really appreciate. I feel like it can be so easy to really go against the modern medical paradigm and be like, "Well, screw those guys. They're poisoning everyone. I don't have any need for it." And I totally resonate with that. That's where I was too in my early 20s. I was just like, "Screw the system. I don't need any doctors or anything like that. I just need my herbs and I'm all good."   Sajah Popham: (39:58) And boy that really came back to me and bit me, because I got very sick in my early 20s with Lyme's disease and got faced with the decision of, "Okay, well, we caught it early. You can take some antibiotics and probably take care of this and clear it and not have Lymes disease." Or I could be very rigid in my paradigm and say, "Well, the hell with that. I'm just going to use my herbs, but potentially have Lyme's disease for the rest of my life."And then that was the moment where I realised that Western medicine does have its place because I took the antibiotics and you know what? They healed me. And that was a really big eye-opening experience for me and realising that do not be too extreme... Just for myself personally, I know this isn't for everyone, but for myself, I realised, I need to be able to see where things have their place and not to be too extreme, which I do have a tendency to be sometimes.   Sajah Popham: (41:03) So that was a really good learning experience for me to actually be healed by those pills that I was so against for so long. And of course for me, I'm predominantly working with the herbs for health maintenance and things like that. But I do feel that in those extreme situations, that Western medicine can be miraculous.   Mason: (41:25) That's so interesting. That's exactly the same thing that happened to me late last year. I had the dregs of my "fuck the system" really hanging on tight. And we were a month away roughly from due date of having our baby. And I went down with this tick, same thing and I went, "That's okay. Get on my herbs. I'll get on everything hard and I'll be fine." And after 10 days I'd had one up period where I was like, "Yeah, I think I'm getting this, I'm getting through this" and then smashed on my back and then had to... I sat there for a whole day meditating on it going, "Do you really want to mess with..." And everyone just saying as well, everyone would just stop the back of a couple of Lyme disease podcasts.   Mason: (42:19) So everyone is right up on that now, which is nice to everyone can be in on that conversation of hearing what these of symptoms are and what you're looking down the barrel of. If you too proud to realise that, "Hey, maybe something like doxycycline or whatever it is does have a place to come in." And it could be really... It's interesting because going into an extreme isn't in any sense, whether it's an extreme naturalist or extremist in terms of herbalism, where for me, I'm losing sight of usefulness of other areas of expertise or other people's passions. It really took me far off balance. So man, I'm with you 100% exact same experience in two days, all symptoms were gone. And then I didn't take my finger off the pulse as I'm sure you've probably gone about quite a solid cleanup mission after that, I'm sure.   Sajah Popham: (43:10) Yeah. So I would say about two years, it took me to get my digestive system back in balance. Because I was on doxycycline for about six weeks straight. And a boy that really rocked me for sure, but, I'm very grateful to it because I haven't been sick with Lyme disease since then.   Mason: (43:34) I found it really interesting because even I was on doxy for three and a bit weeks. Came off that little bit early because I felt that was just for me, I really felt that that was appropriate and it was the time to do that. However, even I was looking into doxy before I took it and saying that it's one of these antibiotics that if there's any there are degrees of severity in which they wipe out the bacteria. But that even it's like a quick uptake in the small intestine. And even then they're like compared to others which get down deep and annihilate the bacterial colonies. Even then I've definitely experienced a setback, but in saying, you've had to spend two years really repollinating. It's amazing appreciation for the use of poison as medicine and that comes up in herbalism as well, right?   Sajah Popham: (44:33) Oh, absolutely. I mean, that's actually a pretty big premise of alchemy. The AHS said that the most powerful poisons in the world are also the most powerful medicines and the difference is in dosage and in preparation. So that's the one thing you see in more of the mineral and metallic works in alchemy that they will work with some of the most powerful poisons: mercury, antimony. And there are certain ways of preparing those poisons to make them into a medicine. And they say, like my teacher in alchemy, a man named Robert Bartlett. He makes a medicine from antimony called the Oil of Antimony. And he's seen that cure everything from cancer to all sorts of very serious sicknesses. And in alchemy they say, "The higher you climb the rungs of the ladder in alchemical works, the less medicines you need." And they say that you get to that point of creating what they call the universal medicines, that one medicine that will cure all things. And that's the way that they talk about the Oil of Antimony, but boy you prepare it wrong it's real toxic.   Mason: (45:53) Just one thing I don't want to leave the interview without talking to you about is this concept... East West medicine is beautifully ensconced, wouldn't you say in the herbal and the herbal scene with a lot of integrated doctors and a lot of allopathic doctors even taking on Eastern principles into their clinic. I don't know if you'd say that same thing, but do you agree that it's like getting some are getting more and more momentum?   Sajah Popham: (46:20) Yeah, absolutely. I think the concept of integrative medicine, bringing in... I think it really started with Chinese medicine really coming to the West and acupuncture becoming much more accepted. I think it's our generation now seeing Ayurvedic medicine becoming much more popularised, much more accepted, much more integrated. I absolutely see the Eastern and Western systems of medicine coming together. And that for me is a really beautiful thing because to me, it's like for me in my plant path, I've always been most interested in the universal principles. So whenever I'm studying I want to see what are the things that pop up all across the world that have withstood the test of time, so to speak? It's like if we see a principle in Ayurvedic medicine, that's also in Chinese medicine system, that's also in Greek medicine, that's also an Arabic medicine, that is also mentioned by Samuel Thompson in North America, that is also mentioned by an herbalist in the Amazon rainforest. It's like, okay, all these people are saying pretty much the same thing, there's got to be something to it. And so for me, that's always been my approach and why I really appreciate integrating these models is because it gives us new perspectives and it gives us a well-rounded understanding and really gives us those universal truths and principles of healing and rejuvenation about plants as well.   Mason: (48:22) And then for you, where did the North South aspect of herbalism and lifestyle come into play?   Sajah Popham: (48:33) Yeah, well, for me yeah. I was first introduced to the concept of what Michael Tierra calls Planetary Herbology, which is integrating Chinese and Ayurvedic principles into basically classifying Western herbal medicines in a similar way to the way they would in Ayurvedic medicine or in Chinese medicine, which is great. That's been a major foundation for how I work with plants. But as I was saying earlier, for me, there was always this spiritual connection to the plants. There was always a relationship to the plant itself that was very important to me. And one of the things that I've noticed in travelling both through North America and South America and have been very blessed with the opportunity to work with first nations people in both North and South America, is that I saw that the foundation of their whole model of herbal medicine for the healers themselves was based on their relationship with the plants.   Sajah Popham: (49:48) And they said, "Anytime you want to use an herbal medicine, you need to have a relationship with that plant. You need to know that plant and that plant needs to know you." And so for me, the integration of East and West is incredible. And I think it gives us an amazing model for clinical practise. I think it gives us an incredible means for understanding people in more depth and how to effectively formulate and administer herbal medicines to people. But the North and South piece for me is really the foundation of all of it because it's that direct relationship, it's that direct knowing with the plants themselves that really is the foundation of herbal medicine. I always say it's like we can think back to the first human beings ever to exist on planet earth and think of who was the first teacher of herbal medicine?   Sajah Popham: (50:54) Well, it was the plants themselves. And that's something that I really want to come back to in my own work. And I really see that in a big way in the herbal medicine world is people don't want to just learn them from a book. People want to touch it and taste it and see it and sit with it. And they want to have a vision with it. They want to have a dream with it. They want to have this deeper connection, this deeper relationship to the plants. And to me, that's what the plant path is all about. It's like as an herbalist, it's like we're moving through our road of life. And as we go through our own challenges, our own sickness, our own difficulties on this road of life, different plants will make themselves known to us. And as we learn those plants, we make a good relation with that plant.   Sajah Popham: (51:48) It's almost like that plant becomes a part of who we are and we carry that plant inside of us. And it is so much more than just a plant. It's like our friend. It's our ally, it's our guide. It's our protector. It's something that we turn to in our time of need. And when someone else comes to us and ask for that help, it's like the plants have authorised us in a way to use them to help these people. So to me, the North and South model is a little bit more of a spiritual... I would say a little bit more of a spiritual perspective on herbal medicine that is really rooted in learning about the plants from the plants themselves and having a very good spiritual connection to them and having good relations with them.   Sajah Popham: (52:39) I remember when I was in the Amazon the last time I was on a plant walk with an herbalist and there's all these plants, we're in the Amazon, right? So it's all these plants and I'm so shocked to finally be seeing them. And I would be asking them a lot of questions like, "Oh, this plant how do you work with it? And what it tastes like? And what's it spirit like?" And I was asking them all these questions and he would always say, "Oh." Basically they would never answer my questions. They would just say, "Oh, you just need to die at that plant." And what they mean when they say you need to die at that plant is basically, you need to take a period of time in isolation and really restrict certain foods from your diet, basically eat a very bland diet and just ingest that plant for a prolonged period of time so that you are building that relationship and that connection and really getting to know that plant from the inside out. And they say that's how you learn in herbal medicine.   Sajah Popham: (53:53) They say, "If I tell you, it's not going to have as much power as compared to the plant telling you itself." And they'd say that the way you work with plants built up that way, there's something different about it. There's more power behind it. And that's where we really see these miraculous healings happen through the plants, so where people use a plant in a way that no one else uses it and it works for them. But if someone else was trying to do it, it may not work for them because they don't have that level of connection. So it's the North and South piece of it is... To me, it's a little bit of a more spiritual take on herbal medicine. That certainly is not for everyone, but I think for anyone that is serious about practising herbalism, I think just getting down to the simple piece of it. It's just important to have that good connection and relationship to the plants that you use. I'd rather know 20 plants really well, and have a very deep, good connection with them than know 200 plants superficially.   Mason: (55:11) Oh, beautiful man. I really heard you on that one, 100%. If people want to tune with you, you've got evolutionary herbalism there in Southern Oregon. Is that website the best way for people to find out about that?   Sajah Popham: (55:26) Yeah. You can go to evolutionaryherbalism.com. I've got my blog on there with lots of free videos and we do some more in-depth, free mini courses that are available there. All of our programmes are available online, so it's all distance learning format. And then we do have live workshops that go alongside with some of those programmes as well. And just started our own podcast this year called The Plant Path.   Mason: (55:53) Oh cool.   Sajah Popham: (55:54) So be sure to check that out to you and then our spagyric herbal extracts you can check that out at organic-unity.com.   Mason: (56:06) Man. I love it. Thanks so much for coming on today. I really enjoyed it and I've really got a lot out of it.   Sajah Popham: (56:12) Thank you very much. I really appreciate you inviting me on and then maybe we can do it again sometime.   Mason: (56:17) Beautiful. Peace man.   Sajah Popham: (56:18) All right. You take care.

Four of cups! Let’s go on a journey together and expand our view of herbs with The Herbal Tarot by Michael Tierra.  You can purchase the deck & book together: planetherbs.com/shop/herbal-tarot-deck-spirit-of-herbs-companion-book-set/  And remember to become a patron of Herbal Marie today to really help this herbal podcast grow! www.patreon.com/herbalmarie  --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/herbalmarie/message

Three of cups! Let’s go on a journey together and expand our view of herbs with The Herbal Tarot by Michael Tierra.  You can purchase the deck & book together: planetherbs.com/shop/herbal-tarot-deck-spirit-of-herbs-companion-book-set/  And remember to become a patron of Herbal Marie today to really help this herbal podcast grow! www.patreon.com/herbalmarie  --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/herbalmarie/message

Two of Cups! Let’s go on a journey together and expand our view of herbs with The Herbal Tarot by Michael Tierra.  You can purchase the deck & book together: planetherbs.com/shop/herbal-tarot-deck-spirit-of-herbs-companion-book-set/  And remember to become a patron of Herbal Marie today to really help this herbal podcast grow! www.patreon.com/herbalmarie  --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/herbalmarie/message

Ace of Cups! Let’s go on a journey together and expand our view of herbs with The Herbal Tarot by Michael Tierra.  You can purchase the deck & book together: planetherbs.com/shop/herbal-tarot-deck-spirit-of-herbs-companion-book-set/  And remember to become a patron of Herbal Marie today to really help this herbal podcast grow! www.patreon.com/herbalmarie  --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/herbalmarie/message

King of Pentacles!! Let’s go on a journey together and expand our view of herbs with The Herbal Tarot by Michael Tierra.  You can purchase the deck & book together: planetherbs.com/shop/herbal-tarot-deck-spirit-of-herbs-companion-book-set/  And remember to become a patron of Herbal Marie today to really help this herbal podcast grow! www.patreon.com/herbalmarie  --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/herbalmarie/message

Queen of Pentacles! Let’s go on a journey together and expand our view of herbs with The Herbal Tarot by Michael Tierra.  You can purchase the deck & book together: planetherbs.com/shop/herbal-tarot-deck-spirit-of-herbs-companion-book-set/  And remember to become a patron of Herbal Marie today to really help this herbal podcast grow! www.patreon.com/herbalmarie  --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/herbalmarie/message

Knight of Pentacles! Let’s go on a journey together and expand our view of herbs with The Herbal Tarot by Michael Tierra.  You can purchase the deck & book together: planetherbs.com/shop/herbal-tarot-deck-spirit-of-herbs-companion-book-set/  And remember to become a patron of Herbal Marie today to really help this herbal podcast grow! www.patreon.com/herbalmarie  --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/herbalmarie/message

Page of Pentacles!! Let’s go on a journey together and expand our view of herbs with The Herbal Tarot by Michael Tierra.  You can purchase the deck & book together: planetherbs.com/shop/herbal-tarot-deck-spirit-of-herbs-companion-book-set/  And remember to become a patron of Herbal Marie today to really help this herbal podcast grow! www.patreon.com/herbalmarie  --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/herbalmarie/message

Ten of pentacles! Let’s go on a journey together and expand our view of herbs with The Herbal Tarot by Michael Tierra.  You can purchase the deck & book together: planetherbs.com/shop/herbal-tarot-deck-spirit-of-herbs-companion-book-set/  And remember to become a patron of Herbal Marie today to really help this herbal podcast grow! www.patreon.com/herbalmarie  --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/herbalmarie/message

Nine of pentacles! Let’s go on a journey together and expand our view of herbs with The Herbal Tarot by Michael Tierra.  You can purchase the deck & book together: planetherbs.com/shop/herbal-tarot-deck-spirit-of-herbs-companion-book-set/  And remember to become a patron of Herbal Marie today to really help this herbal podcast grow! www.patreon.com/herbalmarie  --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/herbalmarie/message

Eight of pentacles! Let’s go on a journey together and expand our view of herbs with The Herbal Tarot by Michael Tierra.  You can purchase the deck & book together: planetherbs.com/shop/herbal-tarot-deck-spirit-of-herbs-companion-book-set/  And remember to become a patron of Herbal Marie today to really help this herbal podcast grow! www.patreon.com/herbalmarie  --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/herbalmarie/message

Seven of pentacles! Let’s go on a journey together and expand our view of herbs with The Herbal Tarot by Michael Tierra.  You can purchase the deck & book together: planetherbs.com/shop/herbal-tarot-deck-spirit-of-herbs-companion-book-set/  And remember to become a patron of Herbal Marie today to really help this herbal podcast grow! www.patreon.com/herbalmarie  --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/herbalmarie/message

Six of pentacles! Let’s go on a journey together and expand our view of herbs with The Herbal Tarot by Michael Tierra.  You can purchase the deck & book together: planetherbs.com/shop/herbal-tarot-deck-spirit-of-herbs-companion-book-set/  And remember to become a patron of Herbal Marie today to really help this herbal podcast grow! www.patreon.com/herbalmarie  --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/herbalmarie/message

Five of pentacles! Let’s go on a journey together and expand our view of herbs with The Herbal Tarot by Michael Tierra.  You can purchase the deck & book together: planetherbs.com/shop/herbal-tarot-deck-spirit-of-herbs-companion-book-set/  And remember to become a patron of Herbal Marie today to really help this herbal podcast grow! www.patreon.com/herbalmarie  --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/herbalmarie/message

Four of pentacles! Let’s go on a journey together and expand our view of herbs with The Herbal Tarot by Michael Tierra.  You can purchase the deck & book together: planetherbs.com/shop/herbal-tarot-deck-spirit-of-herbs-companion-book-set/  And remember to become a patron of Herbal Marie today to really help this herbal podcast grow! www.patreon.com/herbalmarie  --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/herbalmarie/message

Three of pentacles! Let’s go on a journey together and expand our view of herbs with The Herbal Tarot by Michael Tierra.  You can purchase the deck & book together: planetherbs.com/shop/herbal-tarot-deck-spirit-of-herbs-companion-book-set/  And remember to become a patron of Herbal Marie today to really help this herbal podcast grow! www.patreon.com/herbalmarie  --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/herbalmarie/message

The two of pentacles reminds us to go with the flow, and be strong enough to keep on juggling the balls of life. Let’s go on a journey together and expand our view of herbs with The Herbal Tarot by Michael Tierra.  You can purchase the deck & book together: planetherbs.com/shop/herbal-tarot-deck-spirit-of-herbs-companion-book-set/  And remember to become a patron of Herbal Marie today to really help this herbal podcast grow! www.patreon.com/herbalmarie  --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/herbalmarie/message

Ace of pentacles! Let’s go on a journey together and expand our view of herbs with The Herbal Tarot by Michael Tierra.  You can purchase the deck & book together: planetherbs.com/shop/herbal-tarot-deck-spirit-of-herbs-companion-book-set/  And remember to become a patron of Herbal Marie today to really help this herbal podcast grow! www.patreon.com/herbalmarie  --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/herbalmarie/message

Unite and heal the world! Allow spirit to manifest through you. Sounds like a good plan to me! Let’s go on a journey together and expand our view of herbs with The Herbal Tarot by Michael Tierra.  You can purchase the deck & book together: planetherbs.com/shop/herbal-tarot-deck-spirit-of-herbs-companion-book-set/  And remember to become a patron of Herbal Marie today to really help this herbal podcast grow! www.patreon.com/herbalmarie  --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/herbalmarie/message

Time to walk your talk!! Heed the inner call - it’s the judgment card!! Let’s go on a journey together and expand our view of herbs with The Herbal Tarot by Michael Tierra.  You can purchase the deck & book together: planetherbs.com/shop/herbal-tarot-deck-spirit-of-herbs-companion-book-set/  And remember to become a patron of Herbal Marie today to really help this herbal podcast grow! www.patreon.com/herbalmarie  --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/herbalmarie/message

We made it to the sun! Good! We’re now enlightened and ready to shine our love and light out into the world - right!!?? Let’s go on a journey together and expand our view of herbs with The Herbal Tarot by Michael Tierra.  You can purchase the deck & book together: planetherbs.com/shop/herbal-tarot-deck-spirit-of-herbs-companion-book-set/  And remember to become a patron of Herbal Marie today to really help this herbal podcast grow! www.patreon.com/herbalmarie  --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/herbalmarie/message

The moon is here to pull us! Let’s go on a journey together and expand our view of herbs with The Herbal Tarot by Michael Tierra.  You can purchase the deck & book together: planetherbs.com/shop/herbal-tarot-deck-spirit-of-herbs-companion-book-set/  And remember to become a patron of Herbal Marie today to really help this herbal podcast grow! www.patreon.com/herbalmarie  --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/herbalmarie/message

Tahnee is joined by Erin Lovell Verinder on the podcast today. Erin is a fully qualified Herbalist, Nutritionist and Energetic Healer who has worked in the healing realms for twenty-one years. Erin is deeply passionate about individualised treatment approaches, empowering others to reconnect to their innate ability to heal and rediscover the primal foundations of thriving health. Working deeply in one on one sessions, Erin enables her clients to unfold profound change in their health and wellbeing by bridging together herbal medicine, nutritional medicine, energetics and lifestyle change. We're thrilled to have Erin on the show today, sharing her experience as an intuitive Western Herbalist. “There's medicine everywhere.. There really is” - Erin Lovell Verinder Tahnee and Erin discuss: Erin's journey into energetics and herbalism. Embodied healing, physical, mental, spiritual. The medicinal powers of culinary herbs. The beauty and strength of medicinal weeds. Wildcrafting and plant identification. The restorative powers of time in nature and adequate nutrition. Herbalism as activism. Herbalism in Australia - how the institutionalised regulation of the craft has stolen some of the magic. The lack of knowledge and understanding that surrounds our native Australian herbal medicine. Folk medicine in America.   Who is Erin Lovell Verinder ? Erin is a fully qualified Herbalist, Nutritionist and Energetic Healer who has worked in the healing realms for twenty-one years. Erin holds a Bachelor of Western Herbal Medicine, an Advanced Diploma of Nutritional Medicine and a Diploma of Energetic Healing and is a member of the (ATMS) Australian Traditional Medicine Society. Walking the plant path, Erin is a woman in tune with the natural world. On a full hearted mission to educate, assist and up-level how we can all heal with the rhythms of nature, through the bounty of plant medicine and gentle innate interventions to unearth thriving health and wellbeing. Marrying the wisdom and philosophy of naturopathic medicine as the golden compass, to treat the whole- not just the symptom is the pure guiding force in Erin’s practice. Getting to the roots of ill health is the solid intention and directive, addressing the drivers and encouraging the body gently to return to balance and harmony with food as medicine, medicinal plants, lifestyle changes, functional testing and energetic medicine to deliver a wholesome high vibrational experience and to ultimately promote healing. Resources: Erin's Website Erin's Instagram Erin's Book - Plants For The People   Q: How Can I Support The SuperFeast Podcast?   A: Tell all your friends and family and share online! We’d also love it if you could subscribe and review this podcast on iTunes. Or check us out on Stitcher :)! Plus we're on Spotify!   Check Out The Transcript Here:   Tahnee: (00:00) Hi everybody, and welcome to the SuperFeast Podcast. Today I am here with Erin Lovell Verinder, I hope I'm saying that correctly.   Erin: (00:09) That was very fancy.   Tahnee: (00:12) She's a beautiful herbalist and naturopath that I was fortunate to meet a little while ago, and she does Western Herbalism, so I'm really excited to have her perspective on the podcast today. She also has a really great and interesting background as an energetic healer as well, so I'm really excited to weave that into our conversation today, because I think your journey, Erin, from coming from energetics to herbalism is a really exciting one. She is just kind of an all-around, on the ground, herbal earth lady wise woman. She lives out here in Byron. She has a really beautiful hubby and puppies and lives in a church, which is kind of my dream. I'm really excited to have you here today, thanks for joining us.   Erin: (01:02) Thanks so much for having me. I'm so stoked to be here.   Tahnee: (01:05) Yeah, and I have a copy of your book here. Plants for the People. I really want to talk about that today, because I think, given what's going on in the world, it's such an empowering read, and it makes herbalism seem really easy and kind of accessible, but I really wanted to get back to your roots, because you say, in the book, that you had an uncle who gardened and fostered a love of plants in you, so I was wondering if you could kind of tell us about your childhood and your special uncle, and any other little seeds that might have been planted at that early stage for you, as to why you are now the wise woman that you are.   Erin: (01:41) Thank you, yeah. Definitely, he was such a beautiful force in my life. He was really like my adopted grandfather. Both my grandfathers passed when I was quite young, so I didn't have that sort of figure in my life when I was growing up. He was our neighbour, actually, started as our neighbour, and just like dear friends over the fence, and as it all evolved, he ended up moving in with us when his wife passed away. We lived with him for years, he just became a part of the family so I call him, he was my Uncle Les, but he really was like my grandfather and I just adored him.   Erin: (02:21) My parents, there was not a green thumb in the household, really. My dad's a structural engineer, very very, super cerebral, dad particularly. Earthy mum, but not in the way of translation into connection to nature. Uncle Les just, he was an old Englishman and he just adored his garden and had this kind of relationship and magic with his garden that really inspired me. His roses were always the best in the neighbourhood. He had so much fruit growing on his trees, his veggies were always bumping. I was so impressed that he could plant something and it would just take off. That seemed magical to me, because the only place we got roses was at the corner store. You know what I mean? Get your veggies at the veggie shop.   Erin: (03:10) I learnt a lot from him, and he introduced me to growing and getting my hands in the dirt, and just all these really simple tips that totally inspired me as a child. I really was just so drawn to that. That definitely was early-day seeds of how I thought plants were magical. My mum reminded me the other day of also my connections to nature, but my entrepreneurial side, of I used to go around, it's so funny. I used to go around the neighbourhood cutting people's flowers from their garden, making arrangements, like making them beautiful, and then I would literally knock on their doors and sell them back to them.   Tahnee: (03:52) That's hilarious.   Erin: (03:58) [Crosstalk 00:03:58] though. I would come home with gold coins, which is major when you're little, gold coins, and she would just be like, "How did you do that?" I think I just thought it was cute. I just noticed, even when I went and picked their flowers, I just was really enamoured by nature, and in the suburbs in the '80s and '90s, growing up in the suburbs of Western Sydney, everybody had gardens. It was very tame though, but I was still deeply connected to the gardens, and I was always seeking as much wildness as I could. There was a reserve up the road with lots of eucalyptus and kookaburras laughing, and I was just so deeply in love with being outside always.   Tahnee: (04:41) I think we're super blessed in Australia, because even if you do grow up in a city, you typically have access to more nature. Like I've been in Sydney and seen lorikeets flying around and parks and trees, so I think it breeds a little bit of, I don't know, that kind of connection to the natural world. Even if we do grow up around white picket fences.   Erin: (05:05) Totally, yeah.   Tahnee: (05:08) But also what I think people probably don't appreciate in their suburban area, and I'm sure you probably do now, but as a little girl, you weren't aware, maybe, of how many of those kind of things that we might have once piled Roundup onto, and hopefully people aren't doing that anymore, are actually really useful medicinals.   Erin: (05:28) Surely.   Tahnee: (05:30) This time right now where we're all kind of at home more, and kind of in our natural suburban habitats, there are so many accessible plants for us to get to.   Erin: (05:41) Absolutely.   Tahnee: (05:41) At what point did you kind of realise, "I can actually start to create medicine from this natural world," as opposed to just being kind of obsessed with it?   Erin: (05:52) A novice. A young, obsessed novice. Even when I was small, with Uncle Les, he would point out things that were medicinal. Although he didn't, he wouldn't really make remedies or things like that, but he would sort of point out what he knew about them. So I think that definitely planted seeds to me. He would point out something about dandelion, and how dandelion had lots of nutrition in it. It's very nutritious. He would say things like, "When spring springs, spring awakens, and the dandelions really wake up." He'd say, "The medicine, or the nutrition of the leaf is at its highest." He'd say things like that. Even though I wouldn't really see him eat any dandelions, I think this is just knowledge that were passed down through his family as well.   Erin: (06:53) Little seeds like that. My grandmas also used herbs to heal, so I think, for me, it wasn't like someone was actively teaching me herbalism back in the day, but there were these real little nuggets that were planted that I was quite enamoured with and it just stayed with me.   Tahnee: (07:12) So you actually started more in the esoteric realm, which is kind of, I feel like normally people would go for the more tangible things and then end up [crosstalk 00:07:24] certainly that's my experience, so it's interesting to me that you went kind of backwards in some ways. Can you explain how a 16 year old from Western Sydney gets into the woowoo... [Inaudible 00:07:37]?   Erin: (07:37) Totally. Especially with, again, coming from my family, where it wasn't really, it was so foreign to where they were at, but really inherent in me. My grandma's, both of them were really intuitive in different ways. One of my grandma's, who I was closest with, her lineage was Russian, Romanian, gypsy. It was kind of known in the family that there was this alarmingly psychic line that had gone through the family, aunt's and even her half sister. She had a lot of skills, my nan. I only got to spend three, four years with her. I was tiny when she passed away, but she really imprinted on me. My mum always says to me it's just insane how similar you are to her, even though you really didn't get to spend that much time with her. So I do feel like that was inherent in my cells, in my blood and my bones, and in my lineage.   Erin: (08:42) I just was always fascinated with anything mystical, from a really young age. And my Uncle Les's wife, who I always named Auntie Maureen, so cute, she was the first person to introduce me to crystals. I was probably like 10, very little. She had a little bowl of crystals, and she would always talk me through them. Even then I was like, "Wow, what are those?" When I was 16 I was really into tarot, and I was really into runes, those Celtic runes. Anything divination-based, I loved it. Palm reading, I'd have all these books on palmistry, and I got a few books on aromatherapy and herbalism, so I was just starting to read about all these kind of things and learn about them myself.   Erin: (09:31) I actually came up north here when I was around 16, 17. I was visiting a friend in the hills out here, who'd moved up here, and it was, she was living with this beautiful woman who was just so intuitive and was absolutely a medicine woman, is a medicine woman in her own right, and they introduced me to reiki, and they introduced me to sitting in circles, and sitting in circles with women, and healing circles and holding space, and I was 16, 17, and that's just where it all began for me, in a deeper sense. That's when I went and learnt reiki. That's when I sort of did all the levels. I started just doing different courses and learning things outside of my schooling, and that's when I was about 18, I went and did the two year energetic healing, just solid two year energetic healing diploma as an 18 year old.   Tahnee: (10:28) Good times.   Erin: (10:30) Totally, so kooky, but it was great.   Tahnee: (10:32) Did you actually do that as a career, then, until-   Erin: (10:36) Yeah. Yeah, no I didn't go solid into practise. I dabbled, and went and really cultivated and studied other things as well, over the years, and then went and retrained as a herbalist and nutritionist, so I did dabble, but I got out, Tahnee and I was like, "Oh my God, I'm like literally," I think I was 20 when I got out, and I was like, "This is nuts. I need to go live. I don't really know what to do with this." All this auric healing and kinesiology and sound healing, I didn't really feel ready to hold space for people in that way as a permanent thing, and also I was trying to figure out how you even do that. Back then-   Tahnee: (11:19) I know, it wasn't an option.   Erin: (11:20) That was so different.   Tahnee: (11:22) Yeah.   Erin: (11:22) No. That was like 18 years ago, guys. It was really weird back then.   Tahnee: (11:27) I remember wanting to be a yoga teacher when I was 16 and being like, "There isn't such a thing." Like seriously, there were two yoga places in the entire city I lived in, and I was like, "Well." And now it's like-   Erin: (11:37) Everywhere.   Tahnee: (11:41) You can throw a rock and hit a yoga teacher. That's a pretty huge jump in such a short period of time. How did you get drawn to a career in herbalism, though, if you're kind of in this more esoteric realm and still finding out who you are as a 20 year old you know?   Erin: (12:00) Yeah, totally. A few things happened. Lots of big things happened to me around the age of 20, 21, 22, those few early, formative years. I met my husband when I was 21, so we've been together for 17 years, which is a long time. Growing together through those years. I met him, I lived in the States, I lost my partner before him, he passed away from cancer. I just learnt so much in those few years. It was huge. When my ex-partner passed away from cancer, and it was really an aggressive cancer, and within five months he was gone. It was so intense, really. I watched him do all of these things to help his spiritual bodies, because at that point, his physical body was, he was really advised to not do treatment. There was really nothing they could do at that point, because it was a reoccurrence and super aggressive. I watched him do all of these things to shift his spiritual body.   Erin: (13:13) Now, here I am sitting there, an energetic healer. Young, novice energetic healer, but still, having studied for years, three years, let's say. Watching him go through this, do all of these things to shift his body spiritually, to try to shift his body on the spiritual levels to try to make a physical effect, and he died.   Erin: (13:34) I understand now that the work that he did was absolutely healing, and he was able to let go of his life by doing that work. He was just so brave, truly. Such a brave person, so courageous. I look back and I'm so impressed that a 21-year-old could do all of those things to let go of his life like that, but he didn't heal his body, and I was just broken man. I was so broken about it, because I was like, "Why didn't those things help him heal his body?" Because he was doing all the things, and when we work on ourselves, on those more etheric, energetic emotional levels, in my brain, at that time in my training, I understood that technically should actually impact your physical body, and that didn't happen. I was just broken about it.   Erin: (14:30) Fast forward some years later, where I had processed a lot more, I realised that I just wanted to know so much more about the body, and I wanted to know how to heal the body, because we're these spiritual beings having this physical experience. How can I impact and support people having the physical experience, not just supporting them on a spiritual, etheric level, because we're here, you know? In that way in our bodies.   Tahnee: (14:54) What's actually changed for you. This is a tricky question. I have thoughts around this, I'm curious to hear yours. If you're trying to affect change that way, spirit-down, what are your thoughts now on the effectiveness of that process to shift a physical, especially a really deep physical, let's say, process that's maybe negative for the body. Do you have-   Erin: (15:27) I think now my understanding of the body and the being is that all parts of the being need to come onboard. I actually believe that that can be so powerful as working on the spiritual level, but of course coming at it, as well, from a physical level, is just as important. That's my understanding of it now. People absolutely might have different opinions, and I respect all of them and honour all of them, but my understanding is that we need to come from both sides and all parts to come on board to really heal a physical issue.   Tahnee: (16:01) Yeah. My experience is also it's such a subtle form of energy and the energy required to transform that kind of, I see it as more dispersed, subtle. To actually concentrate it and bring it into a physical expression requires a lot more, we would say Jing, a lot more of your strength to really be able to kind of do that, and if someone's really suffering, I think it can ease their transitions, obviously. I think that's probably the gift that your ex got out of that process, but yeah, I think often the more gross effects can be easier for people to then cultivate that spiritual awareness, and that spiritual kind of healing, but you kind of need to have a bit of capacity in the physical body, sometimes, I think, for those things to all integrate. I guess my teacher talks about it as they all knit together through the chakra system-   Erin: (17:04) Yeah, totally.   Tahnee: (17:06) So if we're weak in, let's say we have a stomach cancer and we can't fully integrate on that level, it's just going to be tricky for us to do that. It's definitely something I think is interesting and worth talking about more, because, especially in this area, I'm sure, we have so many people proposing their way as "the way", and I think we have to be really conscious. We are physical beings having a physical experience, and we have to treat the physical body. It's such an essential part of our healing journey, I think, is to integrate and fully land here.   Erin: (17:43) It really is.   Tahnee: (17:45) Was that kind of what you feel like happened in your 20s? You became more at home in your physical and in the physical?   Erin: (17:51) Totally. I think journeying through so much in my early 20s, I realised I had gone so far out of my body to learn about healing that I was almost a little uncomfortable in just being in my body. I think I'm actually a naturally very grounded person, so being out of my body actually felt more challenging for me. I'm not very sort of Vata, I'm quite like Pitta/Kalpha, kind of more in my body in that way, and I think just coming more into it, I found my power more as I grounded more into my body, not out of my body.   Erin: (18:33) Really, with my ex-partner, it really inspired me to want to understand more about health, and that's actually, that was a long answer to how I got to herbalism, but it really kind of brought me to I know that plants have powers, and I know they impact the body. I really just want to know all about their mysteries and really learn more about them, and I became a nutritionist as well, really learning about food as medicine and how to heal the body with food.   Tahnee: (19:01) Yeah. I think when we talk about these things that we ingest, that we transform and alchemize through our internal processes, we are talking about physical, energetic, it's on both levels. Herbs don't just work on the physical body. They work on the energetic body and the subtle body, and they give us that strength, I think, for these spiritual processes and practises. That's what I love so much about your work, I think, is there's that intersection where there's still a really intuitive kind of feminine knowing and relationship with the plants. It's not just, oh, they're full of, I'm looking at a reishi right now, triterpenes.   Erin: (19:42) Right, right.   Tahnee: (19:43) You know? To me, to look at that and think of, I'm holding up a red reishi right now, if you're listening, to think of that as a triterpene pod has no romance for me, but if I think of that as a Heart tonic or a Liver tonic, and on the energetic level, a Shen tonic and a Blood tonic, then I'm starting to get a little bit more in romance with the kind of relationship I'm going to have with that plant when I ingest it. I think that's what you've done so beautifully in the book, Plants For The People. There's stuff in there to appease the western mind, and I read that, you were like, "We're all educated, we need that little bit of reassurance that these things are actually researched and safe," and all that stuff.   Tahnee: (20:27) But on another level, there's this kind of relationship that we develop with herbs when we take them and when we work with them and when we harvest them and forage them and when we learn to see them. I think it's actually a really fun line to walk, so I wondered if you could talk a little bit about that, in practise and in clinic, like how you, I read in your book that you were saying you learned all the western herbal stuff when you were studying at uni, but when you're actually in clinics, you had to develop that more intuitive relationship with the herbs. How did that work for you? What was that process like?   Erin: (21:05) It is interesting, because herbalism now, particularly in Australia, naturopathic studies and herbal medicine studies, western herbal medicine studies, it's very clinical. It's gotten more and more clinical, so it's heavy sciences. You get a, I remember back in the day, I don't even know if they do it now, but you get a tiny portion of making medicines and also identifying medicines. I remember we went, for one, a weed walk, into the botanical gardens or something, into the herb garden in Sydney. It was like, "That's it." Which is to me, totally, my whole degree. It was incredibly cerebral, all through books. Through books, through clinical studies, through sort of evidence-based, clinical-based knowledge, and a lot of the teachers were great.   Erin: (22:09) I think what actually got me through something like that was the inspiration of these amazing herbalists and naturopaths giving you all their experiences of having relationships with the plants over the years, and working with them and seeing them work their magic and alchemy. It was still very inspiring, but gosh, it could be dry. It was so dry, some of the studies, and I know people listening are probably going through that right now. It's a lot. It's a lot to go through.   Erin: (22:38) Also, you get all the knowledge and then you've got to figure out how you want to then actually take that knowledge and mix it with your unique offering, and offer it out. So whether you are going to be a practitioner, you're going to write, you're going to research, you're going to create products, whatever it might be, it's a huge learning curve and commitment. For me, I just felt like there was a lot lacking. I did feel I'd got a great education, but for my individual spirit and what I know I have to offer and what I am drawn to, it was much more about really bringing the plants to life in a deeper way, so I had to do a lot more study outside of my studies to actually get to know the plants, to be able to identify, to be able to learn how they like to grow. What is the energy of them? How do they feel? And sit with them and get to know them, and I've done that for years and continue to do that.   Erin: (23:42) A lot of it actually has been self-taught, self-directed, or learning from older herbalists who I've been lucky enough to cross paths with, but a lot of it is you actually have to step outside of that traditional training now, because it's so clinical.   Tahnee: (23:59) Yeah. I speak to a lot of my acupuncturist friends about this, because you go through this degree and then you come out and you actually don't know how to take pulse properly, and that's the foundation of Chinese Medicine. Things like that.   Erin: (24:13) Totally.   Tahnee: (24:16) I mean I even know, with naturopathy friends, you don't learn, often, a lot of the more subtle aspects of the herbs and how to treat the energetics and all that kind of stuff I don't believe is really covered. I think they talk about it, but they don't really teach it. So it is a tricky, we did the, and I know you're a big fan of Tierra, Michael Tierra's program.   Erin: (24:37) Yeah.   Tahnee: (24:39) I found he was really big on the practical stuff, and I really felt, for people who were kind of learning, it's like to really do it and touch it with your hands and make mistakes and have everything go mouldy and do all of those dumb things.   Erin: (24:57) Totally.. Just learn, really experience.   Tahnee: (25:01) It's part of the process. It's like learning to cook. Some of the cakes just flop.   Erin: (25:05) Don't rise. Totally.   Tahnee: (25:06) It's like I've got a brick. But yeah, I think that's part of it. People are so afraid, we have this fear around plants and weeds and that they're dangerous or poisonous. We went to an event you hosted with Kate and Jasmine at the Church Farm, and you were talking about how so many of our culinary herbs are medicinal and we don't even think about that. What are some herbs people would regularly encounter in their daily lives that they might not realise are actually medicinal allies?   Erin: (25:36) Medicinal. Just the most basic ones come to mind. Oregano, thyme, turmeric, cinnamon, ginger. All of these herbs that you cook with most days, or you have them in some food in your life, in your cupboard, they're all highly medicinal. They've so smart, because they've masked themselves as these culinary herbs and worked their path into your everyday life, but they're actually really potent medicinals. Also most of those are super easy to grow, especially your weed herbs, like your oregano, your thyme, your rosemary, your sage, so easy to grow, and can actually be used for so many different medicines, and I use them a lot in the book. You'll see them repeated a lot, because they're just very easy to come by and accessible and approachable for people as well.   Tahnee: (26:27) Yeah, and even if people don't have fresh ones, right, they can use dried herbs.   Erin: (26:31) Dried, totally. To be fair, a lot of medicines are actually easier to make from dried herbs, because again, you won't get that mouldy spoilage as much you mentioned as well. In the book, I use a lot of dried herbs, and it's also easy for people to find them or order them online, access them without having to cultivate a whole garden or wildcraft...   Tahnee: (26:53) Yeah, buy expensive weird herbs.   Erin: (26:56) Exactly. Totally.   Tahnee: (26:57) That's what I think, we do, obviously, the Taoist Tonic herbs, and some of them are expensive, but I think you don't have to take fancy herbs. Really a lot of herbs are super cheap. We just harvested a whole bunch of dandi from our yard, and the roots were huge, and it's like, you know, dry those up, eat the leaves. We've got a great Liver herb there now, to sit in the cupboard and boil up whenever we want it. Yeah, but that took all of two seconds. My toddler loved it, because she was, you know, destroying the lawn.   Erin: (27:28) Digging them up. Yep, totally.   Tahnee: (27:31) It's like, yeah, that's great. There's lots of beautiful, potent medicine around that's free or very accessible. So people are kind of, if they are interested and feel the call to plants, but they're not really confident, and obviously get the book everybody. It's called Plants for the People. Is it teas that you recommend people starting with, or just learning to identify edible leaves? What are your favourite starting points for people?   Erin: (27:59) Teas are so great because they are just such an accessible way to take your medicine. Again, all cultures are really, all of our ancestors, that's the way that they utilised their medicines. They were boiling them, infusing them. I think getting the added hydration is really positive for your health as well. Tea is super easy. You seriously can't go wrong with making a tea, you know what I mean? Even if you forget about it and brew it for a long time, then you've just got a strong tea.   Tahnee: (28:28) Dilute it and drink it.   Erin: (28:30) Exactly. Dilute it and drink it. It's just an easy way, and also it gives people the chance to play with dried herbs or fresh herbs, but understand flavour combinations and what feels good and what works for their body. I do think tea is a great place to start. I am encouraging people to really go out and look at what's in their yard, and it's something that I say in the book a lot. I give some little golden tips on wildcrafting which, first and foremost, is about identification, because we all want to be safe, right? So you need to practise identification and really be sure. But there are many things growing in your yard, like my yard, you mentioned we live in a church, it's an old, flat churchyard. We've lived here for a year and a half, but it's interesting for me because it's such a different landscape than I'm used to, because I lived in the Blue Mountains for 12 years, and I had all these English gardens that were just so grandiose and beautiful, and this is a flat churchyard.   Erin: (29:35) But we've been growing a lot on this land. It's very fertile land. We've got a great medicinal herb garden growing now, but because I never planted proper grass, I think, on this block, it's just full of weeds, really. I've watched them over the seasons, and what I have on my block is I've got a lot of gotu kola, I've got plantago, I've got dandelion, and I've got chickweed coming up now, because it's cooler. We eat a lot of our chickweed, we eat our dandelion leaves. I'll eat a few gotu kola a day as well. A bunch of those are edible, super nutritious. They're free. They're weeds, so the energy and the might of weeds, they persist, you know? They're strong. They're such good tonics for our bodies, so nutritive, and also you can make medicines from them, and that's just growing in my backyard.   Erin: (30:37) I know some people will be living in the city, so we've got to be mindful of sprays and, for sure, pesticides. You've got to find some wildness where you don't think it's sprayed, so a park where you don't think it's sprayed, do a bit of research. Even in parks around cities, there's medicine everywhere. There really is.   Tahnee: (30:57) [inaudible 00:30:57].   Erin: (30:57) I just encourage people that, yeah.   Tahnee: (31:02) I often, I have personal rules about thievery. I won't go into someone's property, but if it's over the fence it's fair [crosstalk 00:31:11]. Mason's mum used to live in Gladesville, which is kind of inner west of Sydney, and I would go for walks with a green bag and come home with kumquats and lemons and rosemary and sage and thyme and we'd brew up things. There's actually quite a lot of medicine out there if you [inaudible 00:31:28].   Erin: (31:28) There seriously is.   Tahnee: (31:31) Just obviously don't steal from inside people's yards.   Erin: (31:34) Don't do what I used to do as a child and go and trespass and pick from someone's garden. You can get away with it when you're like eight.   Tahnee: (31:44) Oh yeah [crosstalk 00:31:44] story. It's a great story.   Erin: (31:46) You can get away with it when you're little, but maybe not now. This morning we just went for a big walk, and we just walked through the paddocks and just the edges, there's a school here, and just the edge of the school had this giant rosemary bush. It was insane, it was so huge. Then I also found a whole lot of lemon myrtle trees.   Tahnee: (32:05) I love lemon myrtle.   Erin: (32:06) Because I walked past and I was like, "Oh my God, the smell," and I touched the leaf and I was like, "It's lemon myrtle." So I picked a few leaves just to make up a cup of tea this morning. It was beautiful.   Tahnee: (32:15) Yeah. Medicine is all around.   Erin: (32:17) It really is.   Tahnee: (32:19) And so, if people I guess if they're learning identification, I typically say if you're not sure, don't eat it.   Erin: (32:31) Don't eat it.   Tahnee: (32:31) If you have a friend who's better at identifying, share it with them. For a lot of the ones we're talking about now, like dandy and stuff, even the ones that look like they aren't toxic, and gotu kola, there's that violet that looks like gotu kola.   Erin: (32:46) It is.   Tahnee: (32:47) I've eaten that. It tastes bad, but it's fine. I've done that. If you eat, there's a native yellow-flowered plant that looks like dandy, it's the same thing. It's just like-   Erin: (32:58) Like cats ears?   Tahnee: (32:59) Yeah, cats ears.   Erin: (33:01) Yeah, they're fuzzy. No, they don't taste good. The difference is dandy is smooth and it's more serrated on the edge, so there's no hairs on it. Cats ears are a little rounded on the edge, and they've got hairs all over them. If you're thinking what that is, is it hairy? If it's hairy, it's not dandelion.   Tahnee: (33:22) Yeah, people can start to work that stuff out.   Erin: (33:24) But totally, if you don't know what it is don't eat, yeah definitely don't eat it, there are actually a lot of great Facebook group identification, garden identification things that you can join as well, and you get a lot of expert gardeners coming on there and giving you tips or giving you a link to a YouTube video to watch for identification. It's very helpful, but yeah, you've got to practise. A lot of the things you can't, like rosemary and sage, you can't really get those too wrong. But they're cultivated, obviously, in someone's garden.   Erin: (34:01) Just get to know them. That's why, in the book, when I taught the 40 plants, I really tried to teach 40 most common or relevant plants. A lot of them are super common kinds of kitchen herbs. We shot a beautiful photo of all of them.   Tahnee: (34:20) They're gorgeous.   Erin: (34:22) Thank you.   Tahnee: (34:22) Just gorgeous. Oh, I've got chickweed.   Erin: (34:26) Yeah, look at that.   Tahnee: (34:26) They're just stunning. I was just going to ask, because I think, one of the things we try and help people kind of get their heads around, it's a tricky conversation because yes, these things are medicinal, but they're also, we consider herbs as part of our diet, and that's something Mason and I are really passionate about. We don't just take them when we're sick. We're not taking them even, always, for medicinal reasons. I love eating chickweed in a salad, and yeah, it's mucilaginous and high in vitamin C and great in all these, blah blah, but it's just a delicious salad green and same with dandy. Yes, it's cleansing for the Liver and the Blood, but it's also bitter and it stimulates your appetite, it's great to have before a pasta or something. It's a yummy herb.   Tahnee: (35:16) When you work with people one on one and when you're talking about that, is that something you encourage and foster, relating to plants as more than that kind of, I think that's that allopathic, it's a chemical constituent that's good for this and good for that.   Erin: (35:32) Yeah, totally.   Tahnee: (35:32) Is that something you teach people and get them to think about?   Erin: (35:36) For sure. It's funny, I think, for me, I work on lots of different levels with different people, and being a practitioner, it's so interesting, because as I've learned over the years, the art of being a practitioner is being a good shape shifter, and being able to shape shift to people's needs and to people's energies, because if I'm seeing six, ten people in a day, they're going to have completely different stories, completely different needs, and the way that I need to come at them is all really different. For some people, I will keep it more on a, I wouldn't say clinical, but there's a little bit more, I'll keep it on that level. For other people, so we'll do more diagnostics and testing and we'll get to the roots of things in those ways. With other people, I might be just using drop doses of herbs and totally tiny energetic doses, because they're very sensitive and I can feel that they just need very gentle interventions, and I'll be talking in that way as well.   Erin: (36:38) And then for other people, I'll be talking more about nutrition and how to eat those wild foods, and how to change your nutrition to support what's going on. It just really changes, honestly, and that's working on all those different levels with different people. I would love, one day, to be able to have a place where people can come and experience with me how to heal with the plants in a more tangible sense. I think that's the next few chapters away, maybe, for us, which would be beautiful, but yeah, for now, I just merge all of those skills together of how to inspire people to connect back to plants and connect back to how simple it can be as well, because I think wellness and wellbeing has gotten really complicated for a lot of people.   Tahnee: (37:28) Totally.   Erin: (37:29) Yeah, and it's intimidating for a lot of people, so my job is to try to really demystify that, support people through very complex health issues and help them shift and get better. So I really just try to meet them wherever they need me to meet them.   Tahnee: (37:43) Yeah. So which herbs do you work, I imagine you're fairly intuitive with what you work with for yourself, but are you working with anything in particular, any herbs you're really drawn to at the moment? What's your process for selecting and working with them?   Erin: (38:01) Totally, yeah. What am I doing right now? It changes everyday, because I am just like, like probably you guys too, it's kind of like, "What do I feel like? How am I? Where am I at today?"   Tahnee: (38:13) [inaudible 00:38:13]. I don't even know what I'm taking.   Erin: (38:14) Mase just makes them for you?   Tahnee: (38:17) Right.   Erin: (38:18) I'm sure. So it changes with what I'm feeling, but just also, I know we're in the time of corona, but for me, knowing that the autumn shift is coming, we're starting to go into that cooler inward cycle, so I will support my immunity more. I've just been doing a lot of nice hydration and mucous membrane support for my throat as well. I do long days where I talk and talk and talk, so I'll do a thyme, lemon and manuka, just tea, yesterday, that I was sipping all day with clients, that felt really nice. A little elecampane sometimes in there as well, but I actually am using a lot of medicinal mushrooms right now, and that's really going into all my tonics and smoothies. I don't really drink a lot of smoothies, but into my warming tonics more. I make a really nice dandy root cinnamon tonic base, with coconut, almond milk, or whatever milk we make, and then I will put in some mushrooms with that, so right now, very much so doing my Reishi, my little bitter Reishi, my Chaga, sometimes I do Mason's Mushrooms as well, just as the combo, or I've got a seven shrooms mix that I use as well from Orchard Street. I just mix up what I feel like, all the different things.   Tahnee: (39:45) That's what I think I so [inaudible 00:39:47] about having an abundant apothecary. You get to be able to really feel into what you need.   Erin: (39:52) Play.   Tahnee: (39:52) Yeah.   Erin: (39:54) Yeah, totally. For me, I do work with a bunch of adaptogens, because historically I have a sensitive adrenal system, though I'm in such a better place than a few years ago, when I was quite burnt out, I really do need to lean into the medicine of the adaptogens and sort of pulse dose those. Some days I'll go a lot stronger on them. Other days, I'll feel like I really don't need to bring them into my body. I am quite intuitive with them. I'm not prescriptive with something being an everyday thing with herbs. I'm at a point where I'm not on an actual prescription with anything. I just kind of go in and out with them and dance with them a little.   Tahnee: (40:35) When you had that healing crisis a while ago, when you were going through that whole adrenal thing. Was that when you lived in the mountains, as well? You kind of had to get out of that flow?   Erin: (40:46) It was.   Tahnee: (40:47) Yeah. You were just burning yourself out through work, right? Is that kind of-   Erin: (40:53) Totally. Not so much, it was a lot of different elements. I think, for me, I had some really intense tender fertility interventions and just went through a lot of experiences there. One of my best relationships was breaking down, this whole life we'd cultivated in the mountains I was like, we were about to build a house, then we were like, "We don't want to do that. We want to leave. We're ready to go." So we worked so hard at something and then it was just telling us that it was complete, really. The next chapters of our lives, my husband and I, were not going to be there. We'd worked so hard, we were holding on really tight to this life that we thought we should be having, and this life that we cultivated all this space, even to have a baby, and there was no baby. Which was okay, and we're in a very different place about it now, but it was like, "This is meant to happen," and then I think I was holding on so tightly was causing me so much emotional stress.   Erin: (41:51) I was also holding so much space for other people's healing process, and doing these huge long days in Sydney from the mountains. It was just a lot, and I think it became really a loud storm, and my body just told me I needed to rest, and it was really intense, the way it told me I needed to rest, and I just had to listen to that. Yeah, totally slammed me down on the ground.   Tahnee: (42:16) Thanks body.   Erin: (42:18) Like full on darkest days, in the bathroom crying, thinking, "Oh my God, is this ever going to get better," because I couldn't control my stress response, and I was just getting cortisol panic rashes all over my body constantly, yet my mind was totally calm.   Tahnee: (42:35) Your body was really-   Erin: (42:36) It was really scary. Wigged out.   Tahnee: (42:38) Do you [crosstalk 00:42:39]. Do you pull up your bootstraps and sort it out yourself, or do you go and have someone you work with in times like that?   Erin: (42:47) I actually went straight to my most wonderful naturopath. I did a bunch of things, actually. I did the herbs and the nutrition and testing to see what was going on a little bit more, and I went and saw, I actually could only do acupuncture right at the end when I was a little bit more robust, because I was almost too sensitive to even have needles in me. I was too sensitive. I did that, and I also did a lot of kinesiology, so a lot of energetic work from that, sort of more etheric, but coming into the body as well with kinesiology. I have to say, the food, for me, nutrition, my nutrition changes, and time in nature, so balancing my blood sugar with nutrition and the time that I spent under the oak trees swinging in my hammock, honestly, was the most healing thing for me, truly, because my blood sugar was so wigged out.   Tahnee: (43:47) Yeah, and I don't think, that's probably, to me, the most poisonous aspect of this wellness thing, is how food has become demonised. Just people living on liquids. We need substance and it grounds us. It nourishes us, especially if we are stressed or we have things going on like what you're describing. You were doing all those drives from the mountains to Sydney, that's a long time in the car and your energy [crosstalk 00:44:15].   Erin: (44:15) A long time.   Tahnee: (44:17) -By that. It's a lot. There's a lot there [crosstalk 00:44:23] hearty meal and a lie-down.   Erin: (44:24) Totally. And I just did that. I did that, and it really, really helped, and of course I did all the herbs, I did a lot of supplementation to support my body. I was in a crisis, so I needed to be supported in quite a major way. It wasn't a few things that came on board, it was a lot of things. Even coming back to the beginning of our conversation where I said I feel like all parts of the being need to come on board. That was truly one of the biggest experiences that for me, where I had to actually come on all levels to really work on healing my body, and I got better really quick. I know people struggle with this for years and years, and within a few months I was really able to turn around my picture of adrenal fatigue and dysfunction, which is amazing.   Tahnee: (45:12) Did it change, for you, though, how you worked? Because I think, often, certainly some of the people we work with, they want us to help them find the solution that they can go back to how things are, and it's one of the hardest things to communicate, but it's the reason this is happening is unfortunately due to this kind of lack of resonance between the way you're living and what you need. Was that a big shift for you in how you did things?   Erin: (45:40) Everything changed. Everything changed, yeah. My husband and I both acknowledged we were done with the mountains and we needed to let go of this concept of the house and everything we'd worked with. The mountains are beautiful, but it's also a very potent place, and traditionally, from an indigenous perspective, what I know of it, is that it was somewhere you'd come to do deep healing and then you'd leave. You really wouldn't need to, don't outstay your welcome, it's time to go. I think for years, actually, there were messages of we were complete, and we didn't really listen to that.   Erin: (46:15) Yeah, so for me, in that time I knew that we needed to let go of that, and I also needed to totally transform the way I was working, for sure. Only maybe a year before that I had sold my multi-modality wellness space that I'd started, so I'd sold that in the mountains, and I was heading up the Orchard Street Clinic in Sydney, and loved it so much and had been there for nearly five, six years, I think, towards the end six years, from the beginnings of Orchard Street. I just knew I had to let it go. I knew that I needed to go digital and give myself a whole lot of room to breathe and really change the way I practised, and in that moment, we sort of realised, okay, well if I go digital, I've sold my business, we've let go of the land, my husband leaves his job, we don't actually need to be, like we can let go of being here.   Tahnee: (47:03) Be wherever you want to be.   Erin: (47:03) Yeah, be wherever we want to be. And then honestly, the next day, we talked about moving up here, and the next day a friend of mine posted that she was leaving this beautiful church house.   Tahnee: (47:14) Ellie.   Erin: (47:15) Yeah, Ellie posted, bless Ellie. She posted on Instagram and I saw it, and I was like, "That's it. Let's move to the church." We got it very quickly. We'd moved in about two, three weeks.   Tahnee: (47:27) Wow.   Erin: (47:28) And that changed everything.   Tahnee: (47:29) Was Plants for the People born in the church or up in the Blue Mountains?   Erin: (47:33) Plants for the People was born in the Blue Mountains. I signed the book deal in the church, so I suppose it was really anchored in the church and I wrote it in the church, but it came to me when I was in the peak of the adrenal dysfunction and I was just laying there, surrendering to the universe, and just going, "Oh my God, what am I meant to do now? I can't keep up my practise like this," and then boom. The book just dropped in. In the absolute breakdown of the space, I had the hugest breakthrough, which was amazing.   Tahnee: (48:07) [inaudible 00:48:07].   Erin: (48:07) As always.   Tahnee: (48:07) Yeah, such a classic story, isn't it? But you have to create space for those things to be born. It's a lot like the process of birth. There's that moment where you're like, don't know if this is going to happen.   Erin: (48:21) Really.   Tahnee: (48:22) That's the strength. You dig deep and find the strength to transcend it.   Erin: (48:27) To bring it through, totally. Yeah, so I did change. I changed to a completely digital platform. Over the last year and a half I've been seeing clients digitally, so kept a lot of my beautiful clients from Sydney, which was wonderful, but I've just expanded into different spaces, working with people worldwide, all over, and it's been so wonderful, from this beautiful place that I get to call home. It's just been so grounding and nourishing for me. In that way, then I can show up, and I can really hold that space for other people so much more, in a more fortified light for all of us, which feels really good.   Tahnee: (49:03) Yeah, that's such a tricky line to walk as someone in a healing kind of industry, because it can drain you so much if you don't have a strong sense of what you need to stay supported and grounded. It's amazing that you've had that journey, because I think you can help other people then navigate it for themselves.   Erin: (49:24) Yeah.   Tahnee: (49:25) The final thing I really wanted to talk to you about, especially at the moment, it's just this idea of herbalism, this kind of activism. Something that, I've spoke to Sarah Wilson recently, and we were kind of discussing that activism doesn't have to be these grand, because I think a lot of us are devastated by what's going on in the world and we feel disempowered and kind of lost sometimes and it's often these grassroots traditions like gardening and herbalism and learning to build and cook, they kind of bring us back to what it means to be human, I think, in a lot of ways. I think especially what's going on in the world right now, there's this opportunity where people maybe do have a bit more time to jump online, order a book, or get on YouTube or Facebook and start to actually dive deep into the herbal practise and empowering themselves to treat their families and themselves when things go awry, but I know you do know a lot about the kind of historical origins of herbalism. For me, I was really into witch books when I was a kid, so [crosstalk 00:50:34], all the ones about the Salem Witch Trials and all that.   Erin: (50:38) Yeah.   Tahnee: (50:38) European witch tradition and stregas in Italy and all of that stuff.   Erin: (50:43) Amazing.   Tahnee: (50:43) Yeah, I don't know-   Erin: (50:45) I wish we knew each other when we were little. We would have been awesome.   Tahnee: (50:50) It's funny, because what you said about, all those things, when I was little, I was really into them, and then I got with this guy who was really scientific and for like.. I was with him for 11 years, and that was a really important time for me, because I actually learned how to think that way. I think I would have been pretty woowoo, I think, if I hadn't have had those years with him, but it also killed me a little bit, my spirit. I got depressed for the first time and I had eating disorders and I went through, and it's not just, obviously, but just that kind of reductionist way of thinking about things, for me, was really painful. So yeah, it's been interesting for me to come back full circle to a more holistic way of being and to reintegrate a lot of the things that I was really passionate about as a younger person, so it's interesting talking to you.   Erin: (51:41) I'm so glad you did. We would have missed out on so much gold if you didn't.   Tahnee: (51:45) Well, I think with all of us, I think we have these, and even those dark nights of the soul kind of times, the kind of a potent force for igniting [crosstalk 00:51:56] in us.   Erin: (51:55) They're important.   Tahnee: (51:56) Yeah, like pushing us to go back to what's true and real for us. So yeah, a lot of what we've talked about still really resonates. But yeah, I guess what I really got out of reading a lot of those books as a young woman was how much fear and power, when people were empowered, how the institutions and the structures were really threatened and challenged by that. In those days it was the Church and all that kind of thing, and now we've got all this crazy stuff going on in the world. I wondered if you could share some thoughts. You've got such an interesting background with your Italian and Romanian ancestry, and where you kind of see herbalism as almost a subversive, how it holds that [crosstalk 00:52:36].   Erin: (52:35) Yeah, totally. I wrote in the book, there's a sentence that is coming to me. I really wanted this to be a bold page of typography in the book, but it's a subtle line, when you guys read it. But it says, "We are activists reclaiming the right to know the medicine of self and soil." Right? Like, oh man. It gives me goosebumps too, because just that little message coming through me when I was writing, I was like, this is just bullshit that we are told that we have to go see somebody to access this information. In Australia, it is so highly regulated to be a herbalist and a naturopath. We've talked about my four years of study. I did seven years all up of study, but with the energetic healing, nutritional medicine, it's so much structured study. But four years of structured study, I understand, I totally respect and understand that study because it absolutely has its place. You definitely should see, if you're able and you have the means and you have things you want to work on with your health, it is so lovely to be supported by someone who knows, really, they really speak the fluent language of the herbs and they can really, really helpful.   Erin: (53:56) Yes, of course, that's me, right? But I also think that everybody should have access to working with the plants and healing with the plants. There are so many different layers and levels of how you can do that. It is the people's medicine. Plants medicine has been and always will be the people's medicine. I say that in the book as well. It's like, traditionally, all of our lineages have utilised plant medicine to heal. Every single one of them, I'd say. That is the oldest form of the ancient practice of healing with plants. My Romanian Russian lines, my Italian Arabic grandmother, my dad's side, they're English, so traditional folk medicine coming through Europe, coming through those Arabic bloodlines, even those Celtic bloodlines. There's so much power in those bloodlines that we have as well, and really we're just waking up and remembering.   Erin: (54:58) What's been taken away from us has been, particularly in Australia, it's like in the '80s, and I was talking to these beautiful old herbalists that live round the corner from me. They're just such gorgeous elders for me, and they both have these beautiful medicinal gardens, and they helped me out with a few herbs I couldn't find in the book that had been photographed. One of my favourite photographs is the big, gnarly chunk of turmeric. Yeah, I love it. It's got the dirt all over it.   Tahnee: (55:26) I was just looking at.   Erin: (55:28) It's so pretty, and the ginger as well, and they were grown in their garden, because I wasn't growing those at that time. Being welcomed into their garden was so healing for me, because they were just such lovely women, and they were telling me about their experience as herbalists back in the '60s and '70s, and how in the '80s, basically, all the legislation changed in Australia, and we were no longer able to make our own medicines for our clients, and all the bigger companies came in to make the medicines for the practitioners and it all became regulated, so the right to actually make the medicines for the clients were taken away.   Erin: (56:05) Now the flow on effect that that's had as well, it has been enormously disruptive for herbalism in Australia, because that hands-on approach has been taken away, even from the practitioners, you know? I think what's been lost is a lot, in that sense of making. I also think that generation of our grandmas, I know your mum was a trained herbalist and she was amazing and onto it, but for most of us, our mothers and fathers kind of lost that traditional folk knowledge, but our grandmothers and the generations before, so grandmothers, great-grandmothers, they were still quite in tune with that traditional folk knowledge. My grandmothers were, because they were, like my grandmothers were immigrants, right? They immigrated, and they had lived that immigrant life where they lived their way of life from where they came here.   Tahnee: (57:02) Old country.   Erin: (57:03) The old country, right? But my mum and my dad, who were, sorry, they actually immigrated here as small children as well, but they were just told to fit in and lose their roots, because they were new to this place. My mum had a thick Russian accent, my dad had a Liverpudlian accent, and they were weird, you know? They were just like, "Fit in, get in line. Be as Australian as possible," so they lost a lot of that. They didn't want to know about the traditions of their parents. I've talked to my mum about this, and that's been lost, that wasn't handed to me. We've lost a bit of that because we were all told to fit in, which is so sad, you know? It's sad. For me, I'm honouring my bloodlines by remembering.   Tahnee: (57:50) [inaudible 00:57:50] feeling, isn't it?   Erin: (57:52) Right. That's it. So yeah, I do think that a lot of this is about, it is almost an act of activism to remember. To reconnect, and to honour where you came from, and to honour where you are now. It's an act of activism to honour the land and to say, "I honour you," and I want to have a relationship with you. Even if it's this little patch of whatever it might, it doesn't matter what it is. It doesn't matter. The little patch is a microcosm of alchemy and universal energy. We're getting cosmic here, but it's like, just tune in, wherever you are. You're actually fighting the system by tuning in and taking that into your own hands in a lot of ways, and you're creating waves of healing by doing that as well.   Tahnee: (58:43) I think when we have people around us and children, those things, they become, they sort of, like viruses, move through communities and they change people. Look at this area, we have such a strong culture of health and healing around here because people have persisted with that culture in the Byron area. It serves all of us so strongly.   Tahnee: (59:10) I wonder, though, something I'm really sad about and still trying to solve, is my relationship with the actual endemic plants of this land, because I grew up with Western Herbalism, so it was plants that don't really naturally grow here. [inaudible 00:59:27] here, but they don't grow here on their own. Then we obviously work with Chinese herbs which, again, I'm really passionate about. I've been told I was a Chinese person once upon a time, so maybe that's-   Erin: (59:41) I believe that.   Tahnee: (59:42) Yeah, possibly. Part of me is really devastated that I, apart from lemon myrtle and some of the really obvious famous ones, I don't really know much about, I can't walk through the bush here and go, "Oh, that's medicine." Have you had any experience with our native plants?   Erin: (01:00:02) You know, I'm getting asked this all the time, which I really appreciate the question, but I'm getting asked this all the time, and I was just saying to my husband, "Wow, this is really coming up strong in conversations with me." The truth of it is, is no. I wish I did. My training is so classical Western Herbalism, which, as you said, it's really plants of Europe and North America. That's sort of traditional Western Medicine, and now we've got, it's interesting, the more Eastern plants are also coming into our training as well.   Tahnee: (01:00:38) Yeah. Using a lot of Ayurvedic and Chinese herbs.   Erin: (01:00:42) Yeah, a lot of Ayurvedic and Chinese herbs have come in as well, but traditionally it's those folk medicines of North America and Europe, and I feel so fluent in them, which is such a weird thing when you don't live on a land where they totally grow. Obviously we grow a lot of them ourselves, but I'm not walking in the fields of yarrow. I was in the States shooting the book, we shot a lot of the book in the States, so that wildness that you see with the fields of valerian and yarrow is in the States. I'm not walking in those fields. I spent a lot of time in America, so I feel very connected to those plants as well, with my experience of them and the land there, because my husband's American, but I really honour that that is a bit of a debacle. Also, how then do we practise bioregional herbalism?   Tahnee: (01:01:34) Yep, totally.   Erin: (01:01:35) Right? As Australian herbalists, when we don't know the plants of our land intimately? Now a lot of the weeds grow, like we talked about, the weeds in my garden grow here and that's great, but I don't know the medicine, the indigenous medicines. Because a lot of the indigenous medicines are cloaked in a lot of mystery [crosstalk 01:02:00].   Tahnee: (01:01:59) -Everybody, really, that a lot of wisdom has just been-   Erin: (01:02:01) Right, a lot of the wisdom has been lost-   Tahnee: (01:02:06) [inaudible 01:02:06], yeah.   Erin: (01:02:07) Is either held really dear, which is totally understandable. It's hard to access it, even as a herbalist. There was no training, actually, at all for me in my course on indigenous medicine. That might be something they're doing more now, but I see there's a bunch of courses up here where there's a little bit more knowledge being shared up here. I've been seeing those and thinking, "Oh, I'd actually like to start to feel into it." You know, Tahnee it's funny. My husband's American, we're very drawn there. Given what's been happening in America and whose governing it, we haven't been drawn to move back, but I feel such a big call back to the land there, and I think the plants are calling me. I feel like they're calling me really loud over there. For me here in Australia, I'm a firstborn Australian, but my lineage is so different. I feel like I'm so new here.   Tahnee: (01:03:05) I think America has such a strong folk herbal tradition.   Erin: (01:03:12) Oh my gosh, it really does, yeah.   Tahnee: (01:03:14) Yeah. We're members of the American Herbalist Guild and we go-   Erin: (01:03:17) Guild, awesome.   Tahnee: (01:03:18) Yeah, we've been over to the Oregon-   Erin: (01:03:19) That's awesome.   Tahnee: (01:03:24) Just how much knowledge and wisdom is held there. I don't know, for me, how free they are, really, to practise, and how free the sharing of information is. It might just the culture of the event that we attended, but I think it was a week-long or five day immersion [inaudible 01:03:47] basically, with talks from early morning to night time. I was going to herbal medicine for abortion clinics, and there just these beautiful women who had been working with women to-   Erin: (01:03:58) And supporting people.   Tahnee: (01:03:59) Yes. Through miscarriage, abortion, and here people are terrified to even speak about that. The stigma around using a herb in that case, I don't know. It was such an open-hearted, free conversation around how herbs can help. We went to a clinic on using herbs for AIDS patients. It was just a beautiful [inaudible 01:04:23] dialogue.   Erin: (01:04:23) It's amazing.   Tahnee: (01:04:26) People like Christopher Hobbs are there and Tierra.   Erin: (01:04:28) So cool.   Tahnee: (01:04:31) I'm like being part of their wisdom.   Erin: (01:04:32) Totally, yeah.   Tahnee: (01:04:34) I think that sort of makes me sad, I think, here, that it has become so clinical and so regimented and controlled. Every naturopathy clinic is using the same brand of [inaudible 01:04:44]. Kind of like that.   Erin: (01:04:44) Yeah, really true. Honestly, this is why I wrote Plants for the People, truly, because I was like, "This just needs to come back into people's homes and hearts." We all need to feel free to practise kitchen herbalism. Seriously, because it's like, this is what a lot of traditional folk medicine in America is. It's kitchen herbalism. It's things that you can make in your kitchen from your garden or from your surrounds that are super easy and accessible. I'm so grateful that the book got a UK and USA release as well, because that feels so good to know that that's also spreading into those spaces, but I was just so stoked that it's all over Australia and New Zealand, because I do feel that we really have lost that connection here. There are no rules about those things. These are things that you can bring into your everyday life. That is the spirit of activism around it.   Erin: (01:05:44) America is different, I think, in their sense and the way that fol

The Star is here to remind us that we are the star of our own show! Let’s go on a journey together and expand our view of herbs with The Herbal Tarot by Michael Tierra.  You can purchase the deck & book together: planetherbs.com/shop/herbal-tarot-deck-spirit-of-herbs-companion-book-set/  And remember to become a patron of Herbal Marie today to really help this herbal podcast grow! www.patreon.com/herbalmarie  --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/herbalmarie/message

The tower is here to help us break through any blockages we have set up within us. Let’s go on a journey together and expand our view of herbs with The Herbal Tarot by Michael Tierra.  You can purchase the deck & book together: planetherbs.com/shop/herbal-tarot-deck-spirit-of-herbs-companion-book-set/  And remember to become a patron of Herbal Marie today to really help this herbal podcast grow! www.patreon.com/herbalmarie  --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/herbalmarie/message

Pan (the devil card) is actually here to show us what we need to let go of! And, to have more fun. Let’s go on a journey together and expand our view of herbs with The Herbal Tarot by Michael Tierra.  You can purchase the deck & book together: planetherbs.com/shop/herbal-tarot-deck-spirit-of-herbs-companion-book-set/  And remember to become a patron of Herbal Marie today to really help this herbal podcast grow! www.patreon.com/herbalmarie  --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/herbalmarie/message

Temperance is here to remind us to balance the energies within. Masculine and feminine and spiritual and physical. This is the task of living in duality. Let’s go on a journey together and expand our view of herbs with The Herbal Tarot by Michael Tierra.  You can purchase the deck & book together: planetherbs.com/shop/herbal-tarot-deck-spirit-of-herbs-companion-book-set/  And remember to become a patron of Herbal Marie today to really help this herbal podcast grow! www.patreon.com/herbalmarie  --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/herbalmarie/message

Death is here! Finally!!!! I love a good transformation and a new beginning!! Let’s go on a journey together and expand our view of herbs with The Herbal Tarot by Michael Tierra.  You can purchase the deck & book together: planetherbs.com/shop/herbal-tarot-deck-spirit-of-herbs-companion-book-set/  And remember to become a patron of Herbal Marie today to really help this herbal podcast grow! www.patreon.com/herbalmarie  --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/herbalmarie/message

The suspended person is here to teach us to expand our viewpoint and surrender into the divine wisdom of the ocean of life! Let’s go on a journey together and expand our view of herbs with The Herbal Tarot by Michael Tierra.  You can purchase the deck & book together: planetherbs.com/shop/herbal-tarot-deck-spirit-of-herbs-companion-book-set/  And remember to become a patron of Herbal Marie today to really help this herbal podcast grow! www.patreon.com/herbalmarie  --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/herbalmarie/message

Justice and plantain are here to literally balance and adjust ya! Let’s go on a journey together and expand our view of herbs with The Herbal Tarot by Michael Tierra.  You can purchase the deck & book together: planetherbs.com/shop/herbal-tarot-deck-spirit-of-herbs-companion-book-set/  And remember to become a patron of Herbal Marie today to really help this herbal podcast grow! www.patreon.com/herbalmarie  --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/herbalmarie/message

The medicine wheel wants to nourish and comfort us! Give us strength to go through the changes in cycles of our lives! Let’s go on a journey together and expand our view of herbs with The Herbal Tarot by Michael Tierra.  You can purchase the deck & book together: planetherbs.com/shop/herbal-tarot-deck-spirit-of-herbs-companion-book-set/  And remember to become a patron of Herbal Marie today to really help this herbal podcast grow! www.patreon.com/herbalmarie  --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/herbalmarie/message

The hermit wants to inspire you to follow your own path of self knowledge and truth. Expand your awareness and lead the way for others! Let’s go on a journey together and expand our view of herbs with The Herbal Tarot by Michael Tierra.  You can purchase the deck & book together: planetherbs.com/shop/herbal-tarot-deck-spirit-of-herbs-companion-book-set/  And remember to become a patron of Herbal Marie today to really help this herbal podcast grow! www.patreon.com/herbalmarie  --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/herbalmarie/message

We're exploring the science of Ayurveda with Wayne Celeban on the show today. Wayne is a Naturopath and Ayurvedic practitioner with over 18 years clinical experience. Wayne is passionate about empowering individuals to be sovereign in managing their own health and wellbeing. Wayne uses Ayurvedic and nutritional medicines, yogic breathing techniques, and integrated evidence-based research to assist in the management of common conditions such as chronic stress, digestive disorders and hormonal imbalance. Today's chat takes us beyond the dosha's (Vata, Pitta and Kapha), into the realms of the mind and the psychology behind dis-ease and disharmony according to the Ayurvedic system.   Wayne and Mason unpack: Traditional Ayurvedic Medicine and it's application in the western landscape. The Ayurvedic dosha's; Vata, Pitta, Kapha. The four goals of health according to the Ayurvedic System. The "witnessing factor" the part of every human that is witnessing our experience on earth. The origins of dis-ease in the Ayurvedic system. Not taking life too seriously, indulging in your personal curiosity and being present with where you are right now. The misuse of our intelligence in regards to our health choices. Wayne's favourite herbs and health practices.   Who is Wayne Celeban? Wayne Celeban is a Naturopath and Ayurvedic practitioner with over 18 years experience in clinical practice. Wayne received his qualification in Ayurvedic medicine from one of the leading colleges outside of India under the guidance of the renowned Dr Vijay Murthy (BAMS, MS, B.Nat, MPH, PhD). Wayne has studied in numerous Ayurvedic clinics and hospitals in India including JSS Ayurvedic University, Mysore. In 2012 Wayne was accepted into the SDM Ayurvedic Hospital and College post-graduate internship program in Hassan, India where he continues his clinical training. To achieve successful outcomes for his clients, Wayne combines the 5000-year-old traditions of Ayurveda and Yoga philosophy with western medical science and nutritional medicine. Wayne's experience and knowledge is evident in his professional practice and dedication in developing practical and effective health care programs to support his patients in becoming the best version of themselves emotionally​, mentally and physically.   Resources: Yukti Website  Yukti Facebook Yukti Instagram    Q: How Can I Support The SuperFeast Podcast? A: Tell all your friends and family and share online! We’d also love it if you could subscribe and review this podcast on iTunes. Or  check us out on Stitcher :)! Plus  we're on Spotify!   Check Out The Transcript Here:   Mason:   (00:00) Wayne, thanks so much for coming on, man.   Wayne:   (00:02) Hi, Mason. Thanks for having me.   Mason:  (00:04) Yeah, absolute pleasure. Good to touch base. I think we said it's been about a year since we've oh, since we met that time and then got to hang out up on the beach there just south of Noosa, right, but yeah, but it's been about a year. That's flown.   Wayne:   (00:19) It does. It goes quickly.   Mason:  (00:22) Do you want to just say a bit of an ooroo to everyone, let everyone know what you're up to up there in Noosaville and tell them a little bit more about your practice?   Wayne:  (00:32) Yeah, sure. Hey, guys. My name is Wayne Celeban. I'm an Ayurvedic practitioner and naturopath and have a clinic up in Noosa on the Sunshine Coast. Basically, what we do is we specialize in Ayurvedic medicine. We run different Ayurvedic educational programs here. We have our own range of Ayurvedic medicines that we formulate for our patients. We also do a complete range of organic teas and tonics. What else do we do? We've got a traditional Ayurvedic therapy center, basically everything Ayurveda. We run classical panchakarma detoxification programs, traditional programs that been used in India for over 5000 years. Basically, we do all things Ayurveda and we modify it to suit our Western culture in terms of nutrition and all that sort of stuff. Yeah, we love [crosstalk 00:01:33]   Mason:  (01:33) Yeah, you've got a solid crew up there.   Wayne:  (01:36) Yeah, we have. We've got a good team.   Mason:  (01:39) Yeah, you had a good team and then a good community around you. That's definitely what I noticed coming there and chatting with everyone in what's the name of that little marketplace that you're in there in Noosa, that little [crosstalk 00:01:51]   Wayne:  (01:51) Belmondos Organic Market.   Mason:  (01:53) That's right. Belmondos just had a good thoroughfare through there, but talking to everyone, you guys are just like waving that flag of keeping everyone healthy, so you got this real grassroots, honoring the traditions of the Ayurvedic philosophy seated in the middle of Noosa, which is really nice. It's a real sweet offering you've got up there, good quality herbs, as well, which we love.   Wayne:  (02:19) Yes.   Mason:  (02:20) Yeah, man, no, it was good. I always remember I had such a great chat there, really kind of turned me into thinking about Ayurveda a little bit more, despite the fact that I taught a little bit of yoga like back in my early 20s and so started entering into that world and then just got diverted and swept away by the Taoist tradition and not even going down that Chinese medical route. I could see with Chinese medicine that likewise, the complete Ayurvedic system, which both such complete systems that really require dedication, not just taking a little bit off the surface here and there and saying that it's Ayurveda.   Wayne:  (02:59) Yeah.   Mason:  (03:00) When I was talking to you, we were talking about doshas a little bit. It's always such a classic what I think even generally the conversations bandied around you must see that it's quite generalized. I think we had just such a good chat with you going through my constitutional elements and the fluctuating nature of it and where you could be like yeah, this is why everyone's saying you are just a classic Pitta constitution, yet here are the caveats and where different elements of your being having a bit of Kapha coming through, so on and so forth. I mean, just that alone, I think we should ... We're not going to go too deep into that today, but I think that might even be an interesting conversation for people that do like that archetypical and constitutional analysis. I mean, is there anything there you want to say about it just for people who may have just gone through maybe that basic Vata, Kapha, Pitta constitutional analysis? Can it be done online with a questionnaire or just by looking at someone?   Wayne:  (04:02) Yeah. Look, I think it's always useful to get to know yourself on a more intimate and more like a deeper level. I think looking at Vata, Pitta, Kapha and looking at these different body constitutional types is important, definitely, but there's a lot of other fundamental principles that lay the foundation for those dosha types.   Wayne:  (04:28) For example, we're all made of tissue systems and we have mental faculties and sense organs and there's a witnessing factor that we're all able to perceive life through. That acts at the basic foundation for life. Some of these things I feel are more important than understanding specifically what your body type is because once we understand what constitutes life, then we're able to be able to navigate our way through life more efficiently.   Wayne:  (05:02) An example of that is if we understand the mechanisms of mind, for example, the thing is, these concepts are universal. They're not dependent on whether Vata, Pitta, or Kapha is dominant. They're just there, so these are the sort of things that are really important to get a good understanding of because the thing is, from an Ayurvedic perspective, mind is pretty much the main cause of disease. If we understand the causes and the origins of disease, then we can start tracking through and seeing how that affects us physiologically and biochemically. At that stage, that's when your Vata, Pitta, or Kapha dominance starts to come into play.   Wayne:  (05:51) I think traditionally, with Ayurvedic physicians, Vata, Pitta, and Kapha wasn't something that was communicated with the patient so much. It was about finding that balance, but actually looking at what are the origins of disease? What are the causes and how do we eliminate those? , Pitta, and Kapha are like the effect of the imbalance of more subtle aspects or principles in Ayurveda that are more important to get your head around, so then you can find that harmony in general without having to get too complicated and caught up in all of this Vata, Pitta, Kapha questionnaire-type stuff that we're seeing online quite often.   Mason:  (06:32) Yeah, which is really because it's fun. It's about me and my constitution and then you get to like, yeah, which is great and all good, but having that conversation just really tweaked it for me. I feel like of course it wasn't Ayurveda or even Chinese medicine that got me offside with all that surface talk of doshas, yada, yada, yada. It was just the fact that I was kind of, I guess, not willing to go deeper to learn the nuances.   Mason:  (06:59) I think just going on your site, you're talking about the psychology and the mind. Just looking at those eight limbs, it's something that always, when I look down the barrel of just how extensive the psychological aspect of Ayurveda was, that branch, which.. How do you pronounce it...? Buddha Vidya, is that the-   Wayne:  (07:17) Buddha Vidya, yeah. That's psychology, yeah, psychology.   Mason:  (07:24) Which was always interesting, I think. I don't know whether we talked about it or whether I was speaking to Tahnee, my partner, about it, but looking at so much asana, with such an asana, physiological and diet-based approach to Ayurveda that have been taken and then, basically, disregarding the fact that you are going to have a lot of mental shit and a lot of patterns come up when you start practicing and breathing and meditating. That's something that seemingly a limb. This has really brought it up when I was going through your site and remember having that sense of just awe and remembrance of how incredible this whole system is, but especially how important that looking at the mind and acknowledging it when you're going into this system.   Mason:  (08:11) Kind of gone a little bit off course, so thanks for going with me on that one, man. This is always a good reminder that we can just go back to the mind and the fundamentals of life. One thing I'm really keen to jump in with you is the four goals of life, especially from this Ayurvedic system. I always love, especially from yourself that you've been so rooted in this tradition, I'm really interested to hear your perspective of what those foundations and what that benchmark place is to feel, go like as you're moving along in life, you ideally ... You're a practitioner, yet you wanting to start here. Obviously, you're there championing people to embody all these principles into their own life, tend to their own health, embody certain things into their family culture so that they don't end up in the practitioner office with anything super acute. From your perspective, what are these four goals? What are these four somewhat pillars we can use to gauge where we're at?   Wayne:  (09:15) Yeah, well, I mean, the four goals, coming back to the influence of mind in terms of general health and wellbeing, we're always looking at how we can find that harmony and that balance at the most subtle aspect of our experience. Coming back to what the Ayurvedic definition of life is is that it's the combination of the body, the sense organs, which act as the main communication pathways from the internal and the external environment. Without sense organs, we have no ability to experience our surroundings through visual, through hearing, seeing, touching, smelling, tasting.   Wayne:  (10:00) The third component is mind, so that is a combination of memory recall, perception. The ego falls into that category, as well. Then we have what's called budhi, which is like a higher intelligence. It corresponds to that part of you that has that sort of discernment or that ability to make good choices. Generally, when we get caught up in memory recall and reasoning, we generally make choices that don't necessarily support our wellbeing.   Wayne:  (10:34) The fourth component of life is the witness. There's something inside you. There's something inside me that is just aware. It's a non-local phenomenon. We can't measure it. We can't isolate it physiologically. We can't find the part of the brain where it resides. It's just something that's witnessing. What that does is it witnesses through the filter of the mind, so depending on the quality of the mind, it's going to determine that witness' experience, which then communicates and experiences through the sense organs. Then that determines the whole feedback mechanism and the relationship with life and our communities, our environments.   Wayne:  (11:19) These four goals of life, they're kind of like signposts that enable us to track how we're moving in life and to be able to enable us to organize our lives in a way that we're fulfilled in all different directions. The first one is known as dharma. Dharma is translated as like life path or virtue. This relates to what it is that you're here to do. What's your particular unique gift or experience that is part of your process.   Wayne:  (12:04) Traditionally, in Ayurvedic culture, there were different aspects of society that created a functional civilization. We had warriors. We had brahmins, which were like the priests and people that kept knowledge. Then there was people that were involved in trade and economics. Then there were people that were like the public servants. Basically, within those four caste systems, which originally, it seems as though people chose where they wanted to contribute to their society or their communities. That wasn't something that they were born into. It's something that they moved into based on what their dharma was, what their life purpose was. These days, we're having more opportunities to be able to find out what it is that we're interested in, what we want to do in life, and then we pursue that.   Mason:  (13:04) Yeah. That's such an important piece. I mean, adapting that to the modern life and having an appreciation, an intense amount of gratitude for the fact that we've actually got the space to consistently move around the earth and tune into what's passionate, what we're passionate about, and then the mobility to move into different careers or different callings is just far out. It's the most incredible thing absolutely possible.   Wayne:  (13:32) Yeah, it's fantastic. The thing is, if you think about it, on average, we spend eight to 10 hours within our work careers, so this is a long period of time. It's really important that whatever you're doing within that eight-to-10-hour period, you enjoy it. Thing is, if you don't enjoy it, you're going to be miserable. You might be earning well, but how does that relate to quality of life? How does that-   Mason:  (13:59) In practice, how do you coach people, like advise people on that because it's like obviously, there's going to be a huge ... I don't know whether there's going to be a lot of psychology involved and patterns involved. There's a lot of people doing a lot of rah-rah motivation to quit your job and come and work for yourself and go entrepreneurial or just simply follow your passion. I'm sure you're sitting there holding this solid intention for people's health. I'd assume that that isn't this pendulum swing, so how would you go about that if you see that there's a bit of the flames diminishing in that dharma sector of these goals?   Wayne:  (14:45) Well, it's something that we have to consider and look at because basically, I mean, it comes down to the individual. It comes down to what their goals and what their complaints are, what their objectives are, what they're personally wanting to get out of an Ayurvedic consultation. If we look at it from a neurochemical perspective or a hormonal perspective, thing is, if somebody's not aligned with what they really feel in their hearts or what they feel that they should be doing, that's going to be influencing their serotonin levels, their dopamine and norepinephrine. It's going to be determining whether somebody's in like a sympathetic response in general, which can then create excessive cortisol secretions in their system that then starts disrupting their digestive system, which then starts to, at that point, determine whether Vata, Pitta, or Kapha becomes imbalanced, whether there's overactivity, whether there's more heat and more inflammation or whether there's stagnation that's presenting as a result.   Wayne:  (15:52) I think it's important. I mean, from a clinical perspective and from my own experience and also from an Ayurvedic perspective, it doesn't ever seem to be a good idea to just take somebody from one extreme to the other and create a stressful situation. If somebody's not aligned with what they should be doing or what they feel that they should be doing, well, it's finding ways to carefully transition into more conducive environments that support their health and wellbeing, so supporting their mental faculties, supporting their relationships, their environments. Then that will eventually equate to better health in general, better physiological health, better mental health.   Wayne:  (16:44) If everybody's moving in that direction, everybody wins. If everybody's doing what they feel that they should be doing, the quality of that product is going to be fantastic. I remember in New Zealand, I used to catch a bus to college. I see it on the bus. There was this Polynesian bus driver. He used to sing for the whole time on the bus. He'd be drumming. He'd be playing music. He just loved doing what he did. Then the next day, he might get on the bus and the guy's just miserable and hates his job. Everybody feels it and everybody starts the day getting onto a bus with somebody that's really unhappy doing what they're doing, so it's really important.   Mason:  (17:32) Absolutely, man. Yeah, it's an interesting thing. I see more practitioners just like ... Well, I guess practitioners, yourself being a key example, especially like a leader, you've been studying this for so long and you've been studying the depths of it and then we realize that a true system tracking back 5000 years isn't just going to cherry pick what's nice and fits into a Western system of treating disease. I mean, as a practitioner, as someone teaching a philosophy and this is where you were saying you're needing to make it appropriately come over into the Western world and I guess that would involve as you've just brought up, having these conversations gently.   Mason:  (18:15) How many times can you just keep on giving digestive health protocols without addressing this and so you see lots of practitioners moving in this direction and, obviously, yourself especially. I'm always curious how you bring that up in a clinical setting. I'm sure it has to be appropriate. You need to be able to play in both realms, but wear that dharma heart on your sleeve as just is a core educational piece.   Mason:  (18:44) You're right it's like it's just the amount of cortisol running around. Even in my own life, it's like you don't want to be going and chasing this idealistic lifestyle revolving around freedom because I think dharma and when I've learned that simplified version of dharma, it's like just had a real flowery, butterflies and rainbows, kind of easy way of living. I mean, what's the reality of it from studying the vedic system in terms of putting yourself through the pressure cooker and almost in states of slight stress. However, you're putting yourself there within alignment for your heart so it aligns with growth. Does that fall into that immediate benchmark for how you're tracking somehow?   Wayne:  (19:37) Yeah, well, the beautiful thing about these ancient sciences is that they all correspond to each other, so they all, in a way, support each other in different angles. If you look at Ayurvedic medicine or the whole system of Ayurveda, it's actually built upon six philosophies that are adopted. Three of those philosophies are associated with being able to establish the right knowledge or to come to an understanding of truth and develop good reasoning principles. Basically, from a research point of view, you want to go into a research with a completely unbiased perspective and you want to have a methodology that enables you to get to a conclusion that you can feel confident based on all of the steps that you've taken to get to that point.   Wayne:  (20:33) We adopt those three philosophies, but we also adopt another three philosophies that enable us to navigate our way through life in a way that's harmonious and balanced. Then this is where we might bring yoga philosophy into managing that discord or that transition into finding more of a meaningful existence because the thing is, from my experience, I've been doing this for nearly 20 years. I mean, it's not something that I would say has been an easy journey, but the thing is, I feel like I'm following my heart. I'm doing what I feel that I should be doing. What comes with that is a lot of discomfort, also a lot of good experiences, a lot fulfillment, a lot of satisfaction. It's been a fantastic journey.   Wayne:  (21:45) The idea of dharma being a fluffy, flowery, butterfly, Walt Disney, happily ever after reality is part of the illusion. We might adopt things like raga and dvesha from yogic principles into that and go well, if you're looking for a life path that is going to be really comfortable for you, well maybe there's an attachment to things that make you feel more comfortable. Or maybe it's because you're having an aversion to discomfort. Dharma isn't necessarily a solution for feeling good. It can take a lot of courage and it can be uncomfortable, but it's meaningful, it's satisfying, and it's something that I think it touches those parts of your experience where there's satisfaction where you feel at a deep level you're doing what you should be doing and you're contributing to your external environment in a positive way.   Mason:  (22:48) When you're saying dharma's a way, is it that correlation or that tuning into that observer self, which is one of the four goals of life to ensure that that's coming through?   Wayne:  (22:59) Well, that's at the very essence of all vedic practices. For yoga, for example, yoga is that practice that connects your physiology with breath, with mind, so they all come into a beautiful harmony so that witness can actually experience life without any distortion. This is another thing with yoga. When I say that we modify Ayurvedic practices to suit a Western setting, it's not to suit the Western mind in the sense that we might find with yoga. Basically, people are becoming attracted to the gymnastic side of yoga and that gets a lot of attention.   Wayne:  (23:52) The real practice of yoga is to establish a clear relationship with the deepest part of your experience, which is that witnessing factor. That's why there's such a strong component of mind in there because it's usually the mind that gets in the way. It's usually the mind that is causing the disturbance and creating all of this internal dialogue that might be equating to not feeling good enough, not feeling adequate enough, feeling shame, feeling guilt, feeling all these different things or just distracting that witness from having a present moment experience in life.   Wayne:  (24:33) Yeah, I think dharma, if you're actually really living in that purposeful state, you're not going to be spending as much time in the past and you're not going to be spending as much time in the future. You're going to be here. You're going to be engaged in what you're doing in present time. Dharma is also, from my perspective, it's also it's part of yoga. It's part of that union and that ability to sit in that present state right now.   Mason:  (25:03) Yeah. You were saying if we start looking at the origins of disease and the doshas coming off center, so we start at those four goals. Physiologically, I think we're going to be able to save the body, the requirement through herbs and through movement and through diet and just keeping the body rolling right through the center [inaudible 00:25:24] talking about the way we're obviously, that's literally the way we're perceiving the world and ourselves around us. Is that correlating to our feeling states and our emotional states, as well?   Wayne:  (25:34) Yeah, well, our feeling states and our emotional states, our feeling states can correspond to what's called chitta in yoga and Ayurveda, which is it's the perceptive faculties. It's the mind that are associated with memory recall and reasoning. A lot of our experience and a lot of our feeling, actually, comes from our capacity or our ability to be able to recall impressions and recall memories and then formulate and organize that through what's happening through our sensory perception.   Wayne:  (26:09) Emotions are a little bit more physiological. You might have a feeling or a thought and that that process is actually going to create a neuroendocrine or neurohormonal profile. It's going to determine what sort of hormones the brain is secreting into the system and then you're going to feel the effect of whatever that is. If you have a thought or if you're perceiving your present moment through a memory that you're associating with fear or anxiety, then that process is actually going to create an anxious response physiologically. We can experience that through that gut-brain axis pathway, so a lot of the time, if we do feel anxious, we're going to feel it in the belly around the navel. That's our body's hormonal response and neurological response, which then starts to disrupt digestive functions and peristaltic functions and enzymatic production, all that kind of stuff.   Mason:  (27:17) Yeah.   Wayne:  (27:19) The thing is, in Ayurveda, we kind of like separate mind, sense organs, and physiology into three different components, but they're all operating as one functional component. There's no separation between any of these different processes. We've just got one. We've got the subtlest form of our experience, which is that witnessing on local experience that we can't measure. We can't form. We can't burn it. We can't squash it. It's just something that is there and then there's a little bit more of a disturbance or a little bit more of a vibrational frequency that comes into manifesting as mind. Then it starts to manifest its physiological components.   Wayne:  (28:08) We explain that through the elements, as well, so where you have more of the grosser manifestations of life, so we have vibrational frequencies that are related with sound. We equate that to where the space element starts to manifest or these high vibrational atomic particles and then they start to move. Then we get the air element and that air element starts to create a little bit of friction, so we get this fire element producing. Then we get condensation, which the water starts to manifest. Then once that solidifies, we get the earth.   Wayne:  (28:47) We've got Ayurvedic philosophy tracks the whole manifestation of the Universe from the very subtlest aspects of consciousness and intelligence through the very gross, which is the earth element. We're just operating within that frequency, so we have our physiological components that are made up of the atomic particles that we find on the periodic table and how they're organized will determine whether Vata, Pitta, or Kapha have become more dominant. We've got these subtle aspects that are actually influencing and animating these elements, so it's all just one vibrational format that we're operating within.   Mason:  (29:39) And so that's where that daily practice comes in, eh? In Buddhism, there's that chop wood, carry water. What you were just talking about is just making sure that you're not operating consistently from that place of fear, I mean, I remember and still find myself going all right, how am I getting onto my path? Who am I? What am I doing? Am I on my path? It's that constant analysis and goes so far into the mental analysis that you're not digging yourself a hole. Then remembering that it is that somewhat of a mundane, yet strong, yet meek, daily practice where you just go in and at least clear house. It might not have to be every single day. I think I'm still, as most people probably are, still working on this really hard, so I'm not operating from any of these fear-based patterns, especially shame-based patterns, so on and so forth.   Mason:  (30:34) That's, I think, whether it was when I was practicing yoga or when I'm practicing martial arts or whatever it is, that's quite often what it can get my Western mind forlorn in terms of just how much work I've done on all these things and all these patterns. Yet, here I am like a decade later and, in a state of weakness, maybe I was a bit tired, maybe I was a bit stressed with things going on in life and that same, bloody pattern comes up, the one that I thought that I dealt with.   Mason:  (31:06) It seems what you're talking about these four goals of life being such a pillar, it's what we're looking at. Then you can branch into that yogic philosophy, whether it's the stages of meditation, stages and somewhat humble intentions of physical practice, along with pranayama and the pranayama's many branches and progressions, as well. It's all coming back to just that very simple, kind of you can't really make it too goal oriented. You just need to work on those pillars and then allow whatever needs to come forth to come forth, eh?   Wayne:  (31:51) Yeah. Well, I think it's sometimes we need to remain in a relaxed state of confusion because our life paths aren't always clear to us and what our purpose is and what we should be doing. Life's very complicated. We don't have any prior training when we come in. We land and we've got to figure it out as we go and somehow do the best that we can. Yeah, just following these four goals, they just enable us to at least have somewhere where we can go right, how am I doing in this department? How am I doing in this department? Then we can gauge well, maybe I need to focus more attention in another area. Let's just cover the four so we at least we've got something to reference.   Wayne:  (32:41) The second one is kama. Now, that's not kama as in like cause and effect. It translates as wealth. It's really important to have an understanding or pursue your unique purpose in life. It was always regarded as important to make sure that somebody will pay you for it, so like we-   Mason:  (33:10) You're saying kama as in the translating to wealth?   Wayne:  (33:13) Yeah, K-A-M-A. It's not K-A-R-M-A like karma as in cause and effect. It's a different meaning and a different word. It relates to wealth, so you've got responsibilities. You need to provide food. You've got to provide a roof over your head. You may have children. You may have certain responsibilities, so it's maintaining and supporting all of the things that create comfort in life. If you don't have money, it's difficult. There's Tim Robbins. One of his quotes is, "Money in the bank creates a Buddhistic calm." There's a lot of truth to it. I mean, there's different parts of creating a full experience.   Mason:  (34:00) Can you say that one again so we can just land it?   Wayne:  (34:03) Yeah, so having money in the bank creates a Buddhistic calm, so it's a sense of peace. Knowing that you're financially stable is a very calm effect. I know when I've been in difficult financial situations, it's very difficult to go and meditate or to do yoga or to not be in a cortisol-dominant state because the thing is, I mean, bills keep coming in. Your overhead's whatever it is that you have to be responsible for. They don't change. It is important to do what you love, but do it in a way that people will pay you for it. That's going to create a really important pillar for your existence.   Mason:  (34:47) Well, you just brought up taking the responsibility on your shoulders, as well, and that's such an important piece there because I feel and I kind of make some broad statements and broad observations of the health scene and the yoga scene. Really, it's been nice to see that self-worth and really honoring your value and that's good.   Mason:  (35:15) I think sometimes it comes from a place of have you earned it yet? Do you deserve that? That's that my I like coming through with that little bit of that critique. I like doing it to myself primarily, but let that trickle down into that responsibility of man, if you're going to be wealthy, acknowledge the fact that you're going to have these overheads. It's something I'm still working on. Don't make it about other people needing to pay you what you're worth. How about you get your own worth in the worth of like the responsibility of that little bit of money that's coming into your world and manage that correctly and learn how to actually ensure that that's going to keep the food and keep the roof over your head.   Mason:  (35:56) I feel like this kama needs to like this is one of those ones I feel like I very quickly brushed on it when I was going into the Ayurvedic and yogic philosophy. I feel like it's something very easy for young tuckers and seekers and a lot of us have been, I definitely was, to just go right to the cool, shiny things that is, say, dharma, and not look this down the barrel completely beyond the get paid what you're worth.   Wayne:  (36:27) Yeah. Yeah. It's important. I mean, we need to have a foundation to support our dharma and also our other interests in life and things that we're into. Yeah, money's been sort of tainted, I think. It's sort of there can be shame or there can be issues around having money. A lot of that comes from the way that money's been used in the past, creating these social structures and these institutions that control people and keep people operating a certain way that supports maybe a few people, but it doesn't support the collective, so it can be a grey area depending on how you're looking at it. I mean, it's important to develop a good, healthy relationship with that so then you can create that nice flow and that nice foundation.   Mason:  (37:27) I think, man, this is really great and, as you said, allowing that relationship to develop. I feel like it's something that can't be really learned quickly. We were so heavily programmed by a very marketing and sales-driven culture, basically, which is fine. We've all learned a lot through that experience. However, not just going and just jumping over into a motivational, entrepreneurial speaker to give you the download of how you should approach and relate to money now. I think that's something I see a lot, as well. What's coming up for me is just how much respect in terms of a nice, slow emerging process for you to reevaluate your relationship to money, to wealth, and what relevance it actually has in your personal life, not the relevance based on ego or social standing.   Wayne:  (38:33) Well, it's a practical tool that creates opportunities and that's important. We need that. I mean, everybody wants to have more opportunities and more freedom to be able to experience their self and their environment. Yeah, I think it's always been regarded as an important factor in terms of pursuing happiness and contentment and all these spiritual practices that people have been engaging in for thousands of years.   Wayne:  (39:11) Coming to the third one, this is another interesting goal of life that we especially if people are more inclined to very intense and focused spiritual paths they tend to overlook, as well. Actually, you know what? I just have to correct myself from 15 minutes ago. Artha is the translation for wealth. Kama is the translation for desires or passions. Sorry I got that mixed up.   Wayne:  (39:50) Actually, let me just ... I'll give you the sutra and then we can work from there. The sutra goes [Sanskrit 00:39:55], which translates as wealth, sorry, life path, , desire, and liberation are the four goals of life and health is the foundation for achieving those four goals. That's one of the basic original sutras in vedic culture and also in Ayurvedic culture.   Wayne:  (40:20) nYeah, the third one is desire, so that's where there are things that you're interested in in life that may not necessarily directly equate to you becoming wealthy or supporting yourself or following your life path, so it's really important that ... I use the example of watching David Attenborough. Now, I used to watch David Attenborough when I was kid, six o'clock on Saturday afternoon, and I loved it. And I still do. I mean, the insight into our natural world is just phenomenal. It's a great experience for me personally.   Wayne:  (40:58) That's not something that's engaged in my occupation or what I do for a living, but I'm interested. What it outlines is that we have to follow those interests. We have to develop that ability, that healthy ability to be curious with our environment. That can be anything. That can be music, could be the arts. It can be anything that is unique to you that you need to explore that's personal. It's a wonderful thing.   Wayne:  (41:28) I mean, if we work all the time, then life can become a little bit dry, even though we're doing our purpose. If we're earning all the time, that can become dry if we're not actually enjoying and having quality of life and just being in this beautiful place. We're on a rock that grows humans flying through space. It's an incredible experience and it's bloody unusual thing that we're actually doing that we don't really think about. It's important that we stop and reflect and find out well, what am I curious about in this process for this time that I'm alive. Do things that you love. Do things that you enjoy.   Wayne:  (42:11) Kama also relates to procreation, so it's about being attracted and finding your mate in life and all of that kind of stuff. Yeah, it's like the juice of life. It's the essence. There's a term in Sanskrit called rasa, which translates as juice or melody or also it's taste. It's kind of like just nice, nice, things. Rasa is also the name for the plasma fraction in the blood and rasina is the translation of rejuvenative therapy. If you look at the relationship between all of those different definitions, kama could also be translated as finding that rasa, your own rasa in life, your own melody, your own pleasure, things that you enjoy. That's really important.   Wayne:  (43:17) Then the fourth one is moksha. Do you want to discuss that one before we move?   Mason:  (43:25) I just thought it was cool to make that distinction between dharma and kama there, that like they're on their own track and we don't need to overly spiritually glorify every single one of our actions and try and justify it under the banner of our dharma that there is that for those of us that put a little bit more pressure on ourselves, it either has to be working towards now whether our work purpose, hopefully that's also in alignment with our life purpose, but just allowing that desire to sit there and be that healthy aspect of exploration without that needing to be like how does this align with my path or monetization.   Wayne:  (44:04) Yeah. Yeah, if we can find a balance between those three, we're 80% of the way. We're 75% of the way. The fourth one is moksha, which translates as liberation or freedom, so that's where a lot of these spiritual paths come in because the objective is to get to know who you are. At the essence of most spiritual paths that I'm aware of is that it's all about a relationship with self and undoing all of the gunk and all of the fear and all of the different things that get stuck to you throughout your life. I mean, as soon as we come into existence, we're conditioned. We're conditioned through our societies, through our cultures, through people that we interact with. We're conditioned through our traumas during school and all of these sort of processes that put us into different boxes and coming from the side.   Wayne:  (45:09) Moksha is about undoing and unraveling all of that stuff. If you take away the trauma, you take away the fears, the anxieties, the grief, the anger, the irritability, the depression, all that kind of stuff, you peel all that back and you're left with you. It's just that witnessing factor that is there but it's not being filtered or distorted through mental faculties that create an illusion. I think that's the essence of yoga practice, as well. It's where you just become you're suspended in that state of pure awareness. That's always been regarded as a really important factor during vedic times, in vedic civilizations and I think it filters into Buddhism and Hinduism and all those Eastern philosophies, as well. It's coming back to the origin and existence.   Wayne:  (46:03) That's like the ultimate goal as a spiritual person is to become enlightened, but if we look at that also from the practical level, we can address that on a day-to-day basis. For example, if I have anxiety around getting on a plane and traveling because I've got a fear of heights or something like that, then that fear is always going to be limiting my experience and my capacity to really explore my reality, explore, explore, explore the world.   Wayne:  (46:45) By looking at moksha at smaller increments along that path to enlightenment, well, then we can start addressing and looking at all things. Where do we have self-imposed limitations? Where are we holding ourselves back in terms of preventing ourselves from having beautiful experiences because we're scared of something?   Wayne:  (47:11) If you look at most behavioral conditions and mental health conditions, there's always a fear at the very core of that, which is a contracted state, so moving beyond that a day-to-day basis, so if I jump on a plane and I go and travel to a different country and I meet all of these beautiful people and experiencing different geographical locations, well, then I'm in an expansive state. My reality is increasing. That can be anything from day-to-day basis, so wherever there's some sort of resistance, that's an opportunity for a form of liberation, which then will contribute to more increments of fear or self-imposed limitations and beliefs coming apart and then all of a sudden, you just find yourself feeling happy for no reason.   Mason:  (48:13) Yeah, well spontaneous happiness, that's something that I did back when I was looking at bringing ashwagandha back into the range and looking at the general intentions behind the tonics and the Ayurvedic system that spontaneous laughter and spontaneous joy was one of the key in some of the texts I was looking at and looking at Michael Tierra, who's an Ayurvedic practitioner, as well. Just looking at his, that was one of the things that kept on popping up in a couple of other texts, as well. I was like oh, how fantastic just as an intention and to have that possibility and those four goals and then the foundations in the sutra. You're saying that the foundation is health and then very obviously seeing that you're not going to be able to actually separate health from the expression of these goals to begin with, that we're all talking about the same thing and they're going to be feeding into that health.   Mason:  (49:11) Then you go on and we start looking at disease and injury occurring in the body sometimes can be a catalyst for growth, I'm sure, in some of those four areas. However, I think this is something fair to say, as well. We don't want to have to rely on trauma or anything with our health being a catalyst for us getting onto our path or needing to make wealth and so on and so forth. If we can, just bring awareness and stay in a place of health and digestive balance and then just go on a little bit smoothly. It doesn't do good for a memoirs or a biography or anything like that, but it's probably a little bit smoother along the line. From there, we start looking at origins of disease and Ayurveda. It's probably a huge conversation. We're pretty ambitious about what we were going to cover today, so we might have to have another.   Wayne:  (50:08) We didn't get far, did we?   Mason:  (50:12) Well, I mean, but I'm still interested to touch base and then to be honest, I think I want to touch base on cleansing procedures, but I think we're almost going to have to have an entire panchakarma conversation. Let's just start looking at this origin of disease in a very ground level from your approach.   Wayne:  (50:33) Yeah. Okay. Just in response to what we've just discussed, looking at what constitutes health and spontaneous joy, it's really important to have a benchmark or an understanding or reference point to what the definition of health actually looks like. This has been clearly explained in classical Ayurvedic texts. Basically, the translation is one with balanced doshas, so the balance of Vata, Pitta, and Kapha, so in a really simplified sense, we can say if we have good communication between the body and good, healthy, unrestricted movement that's not excessive or deficient, if we have good regulating processes that determine our homeostatic thermostat and temperature and if we have good stability within those tissue systems, that could be defined as Vata, Pitta, or Kapha.   Wayne:  (51:48) Balanced doshas, balanced digestion, so being able to properly disassemble and absorb nutrients and separate them into waste products, balanced tissues, so plasma, blood, muscle, fat, bone, and marrow reproductive tissue and balanced waste products, so a good balance of sweat, urine, and feces, and one whose senses, mind, and body are full of bliss is defined as a healthy person.   Wayne:  (52:21) I mean, they've set the benchmark pretty high, but I think it's really important to know where we're heading, so what are we capable of? What is the potential of human health and wellbeing because if we're only basing it based on how we feel today and how we feel tomorrow, we're only going to be able to work within a certain parameter or certain frameworks. We can then gauge that maybe we feel better than we did last week, but if we don't understand well, how could we feel, like what is the sum total of good, well-balanced health, well, then how do we move towards that? How do we move towards a state of balance? I love the fact that they acknowledge that the mind, body, and senses are full of bliss. We can use that as a gauge. Sometimes we just feel good for no reason.   Mason:  (53:19) Mm-hmm (affirmative), and that's okay. Yeah. That's not a weird thing. You're not a weirdo.   Wayne:  (53:23) Yeah. Yeah. Well, it shouldn't be regarded as an unusual thing.   Mason:  (53:27) Well, you were talking about confusion before and the fact that you can be in a relaxed state of confusion. I thought that's really good. It's a real like you turned up to work with a smile on your face. "Hey, how you going?" "Yeah, I'm confused. Yeah, thanks for asking."   Wayne:  (53:43) Well, the thing is, I think it's just important not to take life too seriously. It's important to honor it and make the most of it, but not to get too caught up in it and feel as though you have to be something that you're not in this moment. As long as you're tracking towards, moving towards that definition of health and you're consciously aware of your life path and earning and creating good, solid foundation there, exploring the things that you're interested in, looking to move through your fears and move towards getting to know yourself better, that's great. Just do that, but if you're not there, it's okay.   Mason:  (54:24) Yeah. Having that intention to move towards that place I think is nice without that pressure coming at it from that place of joy and even allowing yourself to be confused in a nice, relaxed way in terms of what health is and what you're moving towards because it can get a little bit daunting when you just go oh, there it is. It's that simple laid out in front of me and this is what I need to get to that elevated state of health. Of course, in practice, in life, it's never going to be that simple. It's in the texts. I haven't studied Ayurvedic texts and vedic texts much, but I know in the Taoist texts or in many traditions around the world, it's acknowledged that here it is. It's very basic, but we understand the complexity of life, as well, so just know that it is going to be a unique journey, as well.   Mason:  (55:16) I mean, in terms of the origins of disease, we see very quickly there if we're looking for harmony and we're looking for aspects of our health to be in alignment with each other, if they're not, we're going to see, say, we're going to see imbalance emerge. We're going to see disease emerge. I think what's nice, I think everyone sees a lot of what I've seen Ayurveda in the past heavily revolving around treating illness and not seeing yoga being practiced in a way that was holistic enough to really bring forth a well, and this is just the yoga that I went and sought, bringing about this well-rounded, robust health that we're talking about and is somewhat why I moved in the direction towards Taoist practices just because I wasn't looking in the right places.   Mason:  (56:11) The Taoists took it in a different direction, but of course it's somewhat the child of Ayurveda. That is definitely the ancestor in here, so no doubt there might've been some elaborations and different focuses based on the different terrains and mindsets. Of course, Ayurveda is going to have it covered completely as a system. In terms of disease, are you feeling to touch base on anything relevant there and how it has its origins?   Wayne:  (56:45) Yeah, so in terms of disease and its origins, Ayurveda defines three causes of disease to be at the core of all physiological and mental imbalances. The first one is known as parinam, which relates to environmental factors and time, so there's certain within this experience and these elements in this physical universe, there is a process of growth and degeneration. It's a basic mechanism that's at the origins of all cellular biochemical function.   Wayne:  (57:31) Basically, we have, at a cellular level, we have things like DNA that create, store the blueprint of the production of amino acids and proteins and tissue-building components. Then we have, say for example, the metabolic processes that generate the energy so that can come from a potential into a process of potential, so we've got the stored intelligence that then organizes itself into tissue-building components. There's a process of that and then eventually, we get what is the product of that creative potential, which is considered as the known or the form or what is expressed from that nonphysical creative intelligence.   Wayne:  (58:23) Then after that, we get that degenerative process, so eventually, that cell will go back into a state of degeneration. Those elements and those atomic particles will then be transferred into generating new creative potential, the expression of that creative potential and what's expressed from that. Time is a process that is going to be influencing our physiology. I mean, nobody's getting out of here alive. There is a lifespan that we have and we're just part of that. That is a cause of disease.   Mason:  (58:56) Right, and the speeding up of these processes... In some of the instances.   Wayne:  (58:56) Yeah.   Mason:  (58:56) What are you looking at in terms if you look at your lifestyle, what are ... Some of these might seem obvious, but I'm keen to hear especially in these aspects of lifestyle, I imagine we're looking at diet and movement and so on and so forth, but one of the things, if we're looking at the origin of disease, especially disease coming up down especially when we start aging and we get into that death cycle a little bit more. How do you approach some of the key areas to stay in harmony and not allow disease to come up in a body and how have you approached them in a way that allows you to stay consistent and not get swept off into anything new, necessarily get swept off and go into something that's like a fad or what's the next best thing. How do you approach that?   Wayne:  (59:53) Well, the way that I approach that personally is that I apply these principles and I'll measure whatever fads or whatever health trends or exercise trends that are coming through and I'll look at how that translates into these basic mechanics of life. As an Ayurvedic practitioner, I can appreciate the fact that Ayurveda is not a manmade system of healthcare. It's an observable system of nature. What we're looking at, we're looking at the principles of how nature evolves and fluctuates and what are the laws around that that bring about happiness and joy and sustainable physiology and what destroys it. I'll use those principles and look at how that ties into whatever the latest herb is or whatever the latest berry is or exercise or cleanse or whatever because, I mean, the thing is, it's a multibillion dollar industry. There's always going to be something new. The industry needs to continuously recreate itself to keep people engaged and interested in that.   Wayne:  (01:01:10) That's why I really appreciate Ayurvedic systems is because we're not trying to create anything. We're looking at how we sustain life, how we sustain the basic mechanisms of life that support cellular health, that support mental, physiological health, support our sense organs so we can maintain good, clear, direct perception with our external environment.   Wayne:  (01:01:36) In relation to the other two causes of disease, excuse me, I use these as a basic indicator of how I'm tracking and what my relationship is with the external environment, so the second one is known as asatmya indriyartha samyoga, which means improper utilization of the organs of perception and their objects.   Wayne:  (01:02:01) For example, if I'm continuously staring at a computer screen for six hours, writing or doing whatever I do, I know that that's going to start affecting my retina. I know that it's going to start influencing things like melatonin release or I'm lucky if I'm watching, I'm on my computer at night and I'm going to bed now it's time, I know that that may affect my melatonin. If I affect my melatonin, then I'm going to have difficulty getting to sleep. If I have difficulty getting to sleep, I'm not going to possibly get into good REM three or four sleep state, which means I'm not going to efficiently break down beta amyloid plaque, which means I'm not going to organize the information very well in my brain. It is then going to result in me waking up tired in the morning and that will potentially have further impact on digestive functions and homeostasis and that sort of thing. It's important that we have correct relationship with the objects that we're perceiving through our sense organs.   Wayne:  (01:03:05) That's a big one. That's a big one culturally for us because we have these devices constantly where they're attached to us. We're constantly looking at them. We're looking at them at night. They're influencing our mood state. They can be generating anxiety. They can be generating depression, dependence, addictions, all that kind of stuff. That's a big one from an Ayurvedic perspective.   Wayne:  (01:03:31) the third one is known as pragnyaparadha, which translates as the misuse of intelligence. This is considered as the main cause of disease. Basically, this is not exercising our physiology and our mental faculties in an intelligent way. I know that Coke is going to affect my glucose levels. I know it's probably going to lead to inflammation. I know that it's got caffeine. I know that it's highly processed, but sooner or later, I'm probably going to succumb to drinking a can of Coke on a hot day at some point. This is where we misuse our intelligence and we start generating things that start causing imbalance physiologically.   Wayne:  (01:04:18) If we look at what that mechanism, how that might look physiologically, if I'm staying up watching Netflix until 2:00 in the morning, I start affecting my sleep patterns. I start creating ... I'm not feeling as clear and as awake the following day. Then I start becoming stressed out because I'm falling behind or I'm not reaching my targets terms of or whatever it is that I have to do or I'm just not relating to the people around me very well because I'm tired. That starts to disrupt my hormonal system. That'll put me into a sympathetic state. I'll start producing more adrenaline and then all of a sudden, my digestive system starts to just not function as efficiently.   Wayne:  (01:05:17) This is the basic kind of process of disease from an Ayurvedic perspective. This is pretty much how most chronic health issues start to manifest. Once we start disrupting our neurohormonal systems, then our digestive systems start to be disrupted, so all of those neural pathways that service digestive function influence enzymatic production. They influence peristalsis, transit time, digestion, so if I'm eating food or I'm eating food at the wrong times, I might not be efficiently separating food substances or absorbable nutrients and waste products.   Wayne:  (01:06:00) That's pretty much the whole function of the gut is to take food and turn it into healthy tissue and to separate the waste product and move it on and effectively eliminate it from the system. If I'm not digesting that efficiently, I end up with a byproduct of that digestive process and we call this ama in Ayurveda. I think the best translation of ama is gunk. It's not toxin. It's just gunk. It's just like digestive residue that starts to coat the lining of the stomach, whether it's in the stomach, small intestines, or the large intestine. Then that starts to further hinder the quality of digestion absorption and eventually, that gunk starts to move into the bloodstream, so it starts to influence the quality of plasma and blood. Then that's where we get symptoms of fatigue, lethargy, foggy mind, all of those initial symptoms of not feeling well, not feeling hundred percent.   Wayne:  (01:07:07) The problem is, is if that gunk isn't efficiently removed from the system, it might find its way into the joints, so it might start accumulating in my knees, for example. If I've got a genetic predisposition let's say rheumatoid arthritis or autoimmune conditions in the family, it might mean that that is the most compromised tissue system in the body so that starts to build up there because the immune system is a little bit more compromised. Eventually, I might start having symptoms of heat, redness, inflammation, swelling, and eventually, I might use some Voltaren or some-   Mason:  (01:07:53) That's good stuff.   Wayne:  (01:07:54) ... chemist antiinflammatories. I use that so I'm not feeling the pain. I'm not feeling the discomfort. Over a period of time, my immune system is going to develop a non-local response. We call this an autoimmune response, so then we activate this autoimmune condition and then all of a sudden, we have this degenerative-type process happening in the knees. Then further along that line, we end up with a lot of tissue damage. Then we end up with possible fusion or deformity of the joints. That's usually the time that we'll diagnose that as rheumatoid arthritis.   Mason:  (01:08:34) Right, so a little bit too late.   Wayne:  (01:08:36) Yeah, so if we track that all the way back, all the way through from the joint to the channels of circulation back through the intestinal wall into the stomach through the neural pathways and the hormonal pathways back into the endocrine system, back into the brain, back into the mind, back into the choices, we can see that everything stems from misuse of intelligence or just directing our physiology or mind or functioning in a way that's conducive to health and wellbeing.   Mason:  (01:09:10) There's so many things to unpack there. I definitely feel like from the cleansing perspective, I think we're going to have to do another podcast just covering that. Otherwise, we're going to end up with a super, mega three hour fest on our hands here. I then like if you track back to the wealth goal or [inaudible 01:09:38] in one where you take responsibility and I can see that can become so overbearing at times, especially if you don't have dharma in your life and so then your kama desire somewhat gets a little bit suppressed there and you need to sneak it in.   Mason:  (01:09:56) Therefore, some of the mental choices you're making through your mental patterns and your intellect are going to be towards those to I'm thinking something which isn't being acknowledge and take you down that track where you're going to consistently have a practice that is not going to be revolving around acknowledging what you are actually perceiving around what you know and feel is going to be right for your own path. You have sustained your own destiny and, therefore, you might stay up consistently late consistently.   Mason:  (01:10:25) This is something I can really empathize with that these patterns can seem like they can and addicts will definitely know that you can even slight stealth addictions, they can be overbearing. You really got to get in there early or now. No matter what it is, whether it's food or just that little bit more booze at night or even social media or TV and just of knock it on the head because doesn't matter how much you make distinctions around not watching that screen and getting that blue light at night, so you're setting up the sleep environment so that your digestive health can be rocking so down. There's only so much you can do in terms of looking at the health practices. Hopefully, they can crack it, but a lot of the time, they can't crack those mental patterns, so you got to get in there.   Wayne:  (01:11:12) Yeah. This is where your life purpose becomes really important because if there are addictions, if there are attachments to alcohol, drugs, sex, whatever it is for the individual, there needs to be something that's greater than the sum total of those attachments. It's unrealistic to think that somebody's just going to give those up because what are they replacing it with? Nothing, which means that they're even more miserable.   Wayne:  (01:11:43) At least there is pleasure. At least there's something that they can have for a moment where they go all right, this is nice. This is an escape from the discomfort that I experience through my own thought patterns or my repetitive behaviors or the situation that I've created for myself or the situation that I found myself in. I think this is why things like yoga practice and things that bring us back to finding the simplicity and the aspects of our existence that encourage us to make better choices and to just generally feel better.   Mason:  (01:12:24) I love it, man. Guys, I do apologize we went rambling on, but I feel like it's been the best and talked, rambling about the four goals. We'll do another pod around cleansing procedures and medicated fats, as well. I think it's a good idea. This has got a little fire around having done so much work and seeing the fabric and the intent that goes into a lifestyle. I just like to hear a couple of real core pillar lifestyle things, superficial things that you're doing to maintain your health. Are you still on the mat practicing Brazilian jujitsu? Is that one of your core things still?   Wayne:  (01:13:03) Yeah, it's definitely a core thing. I've got a knee injury at the moment, so I haven't trained for about six weeks, which is very difficult because that's part of my mental health practice. That's what helps to keep my mind balanced and physiologically well. I mean, yeah. Things that I'm finding that are really working for me at the moment is maintaining a regular yoga practice in the morning, because I start my day well if I do that, and pranayama breathing techniques. I've been doing the Wim Hof breathing for probably the last nine months or so.   Wayne:  (01:13:42) I find it's quite an aggressive form of pranayama, but it really helps to reset your hormonal profiles. It's like it floods your system with adrenaline and then your body kind of resets and reprograms. It's a really good way for people to start getting back into or introducing them into the benefits of breathing. Yeah, good water, good air, and regular exercise. I think that's even more important than food. If there is stress, if there is cortisol, if you're under pressure, just using these traditional herbs and Ayurvedic medic

Strength wants ya to balance the beast within. Start manipulating things with your energy… Not just your brute force! Let’s go on a journey together and expand our view of herbs with The Herbal Tarot by Michael Tierra.  You can purchase the deck & book together: planetherbs.com/shop/herbal-tarot-deck-spirit-of-herbs-companion-book-set/  And remember to become a patron of Herbal Marie today to really help this herbal podcast grow! www.patreon.com/herbalmarie  --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/herbalmarie/message

The Chariot is here with his drive, willpower and determination to inspire us to balance the energies within and attain victory. Let’s go on a journey together and expand our view of herbs with The Herbal Tarot by Michael Tierra. You can purchase the deck & book together: planetherbs.com/shop/herbal-tarot-deck-spirit-of-herbs-companion-book-set/ And remember to become a patron of Herbal Marie today to really help this herbal podcast grow! www.patreon.com/herbalmarie --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/herbalmarie/message

https://www.lightingthevoid.comLive Weeknights 9 pm - Midnight PacificCraig Williams is an author, practitioner of Ayurvedic Medicine, Acupuncture, Traditional Chinese Medicine, Vedic Sciences, Gnostic Spirituality, and Martial Arts. He has written several books including Cave of the Numinous, Entering the Desert, and his most recent Cult of Golgotha. Craig Williams:Bachelor's Degree in Religious Studies with a focus on Eastern Religions,Master's Degree in Oriental Medicine,Professional Member of the American Herbalist Guild,Certified East / West Herbalist by Michael Tierra, Certified Tutor for East-West School of Herbology, Over 15 years of academic and Gurukula training in Ayurveda, Yoga, Jyotish, Vedanta and Tantra, Ordained Bishop in the Ecclesia Gnostica Aeterna, Over 1500 academic / Gurukula hours with David Frawley and the American Institute of Vedic Studies, Awarded the prestigious titles of Veda Kovid and Yogacharya by Vamadeva Shastri ( David Frawley) / American Institute of Vedic Studies, Certified by Academy of Traditional Ayurveda, Certified Health Coach by the American Council on Exercise, Certified Revolution Running Coach, Licensed Acupuncturist -Reviews by Mark Stavish of his 2 most recent books:https://arisearjuna.wordpress.com/2019/07/17/cult-of-golgotha-a-review-by-mark-stavish-director-of-the-institute-for-hermetic-studies/https://arisearjuna.wordpress.com/2019/07/22/entering-the-desert-a-review-by-mark-stavish-director-of-the-institute-for-hermetic-studies/http://ayurvedaaustin.com/Music By: Chronox at https://www.chronoxofficial.comGuitar By: Bundy

The Lovers are here to remind us to balance our masculine and feminine energies within! Let’s go on a journey together and expand our view of herbs with The Herbal Tarot by Michael Tierra. You can purchase the deck & book together: planetherbs.com/shop/herbal-tarot-deck-spirit-of-herbs-companion-book-set/ And remember to become a patron of Herbal Marie today to really help this herbal podcast grow! www.patreon.com/herbalmarie --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/herbalmarie/message

In today's podcast Mason chats to Susan Van Daal. Susan is a passionate practitioner of the Ayurvedic healing sciences. Susan believes that the "potential for healing lies in understanding nature, connecting with nature and adjusting to nature.“ Specialising in digestive health, with a focus on food as medicine, Susan incorporates her knowledge in the areas of Qigong, postnatal care, the emotional freedom technique (EFT) and biochemical science to guide her clients on the path of their own good health.  Mason and Susan discuss: Ayurvedic medicine. Digestive health. Food and plants as medicine. Mindset as a tool for creating health in the body. The power of intention when using herbs to heal. Ayurveda and postnatal care. Who Is Susan Van Daal?  Susan van Daal is an Ayurvedic practitioner, doula and founder of Inanna care. Inanna care is the embodiment of her call to inspire vital living, health, and longevity. Susan guides people through the healing of digestive disorders, such as IBS, Ulcerative Colitis and Crohn's and supports women through different stages of feminine health: from fertility through pregnancy, birth and postpartum. A significant vector of her work is healing through food and plants as medicine. Her ambition is to transform other people’s lives by sharing nature’s laws and rhythms based on Ayurveda.    Resources: Susan's Website Prakriti by Robert Svoboda  Textbook of Ayurveda by Vasant Lad  The Yoga of Herbs' by David Frawley and Vasant Lad  Dravyaguna for Westerners' by Atreya Smith    *A few of the Ayurvedic terms Mason asked Susan to pronounce in the chat: Cedrus deodara (latin name) Devdaru (sanskrit name) (Himalayan Cedar wood) - is a very powerful herb especially for the Kapha dosha.  This herb is a strong tonic that acts as a expectorant, carminative and laxative, while creating a calming effect on the mind. The moment before sunrise is called Brahma - muhurta Anupanus - is a substance, such as ghee, that helps medicinal herbs reach deeper or more specific tissues in the body.   Q: How Can I Support The SuperFeast Podcast? A: Tell all your friends and family and share online! We’d also love it if you could subscribe and review this podcast on iTunes. Or  check us out on Stitcher :)! Plus  we're on Spotify! We got you covered on all bases ;P Check Out The Transcript Here:   Mason:  Hey, everybody and hello to you, Susan. How are you?   Susan:  I'm good. I'm losing my...   Mason:  Thank you for inviting me into your home. So, Susan Van Daal, you're up here in the Topanga Hills. Well, I'll let you explain what you do, but where do you have your Ayurvedic practitioner clinic? Are you working out of here or are you nearby?   Susan:  Yeah, I work from home, but I work also as a doula, so then I'm visiting clients. I give massages at people's place, but most of the sessions I do actually through Skype now, if I'm not working in postpartum areas.   Mason:  Okay. This conversation's just blown out into so many different areas that we're going to be able to go at it from. Just to give everyone a world... you're from Netherlands. Whereabouts are you?   Susan:  Yeah. I'm from a small town actually in the south of the Netherlands, which I've lived in for quite awhile. Then I moved to Lisbon and now I came here in half a year ago, building up my practice here.   Mason:  Okay. And you were practicing in those places as well?   Susan:  In Lisbon, I had my Ayurvedic practice, yes.   Mason:  Okay. Where did you study?   Susan:  I'm still studying, because I think it's a more lifetime commitment. I think that you...   Mason:  Good, trick question.   Susan:  Exactly. Once you start Ayuveda or yoga, whatever the sutras are endless. So I can keep on studying forever-   Mason:  Yeah, and a better question is, what's been your track and your inspirational path to learning so far?   Susan:  I think my personal experience was really the trigger to go down this route. I mean, nine years ago, I got an autoimmune disease, ulcerative colitis, and I came in touch with this book, it was called, just David Frawley, a book about Ayurveda and herbs. And I came in touch with Sankhya philosophy and felt really for me-   Mason:  What philosophy was it?   Susan:  Sankhya philosophy is one of the six Hindu philosophies of how matter or substances are created and how the universe exists. And it was not even related to my disease, necessarily, not directly, but it opened up a certain, whatever, channel. I don't know what it was. But it was familiar like, "Okay, this is truth. This for me true." And-   Mason:  But you went from a static mental model of what it was going to look like for you with an autoimmune disease, kind of like-   Susan:  Yeah, I was in Western and Western process and doctors had said, "Well, you need to take this medication for the rest of your life."   Mason:  You were like-   Susan:  And I thought, "Well..."   Mason:  It's such a common story, but and at the same time very unique. And, obviously, as you know in your experience, you go from you've bought into an official story that you're getting from an industry or a culture, which doesn't even have to be sadistic in nature, it's just their official story and their world. And, boom, and all of a sudden you crack the egg with something like that on your own.   Susan:  Exactly. I was reading that, how that [inaudible 00:02:22], so how consciousness and matter came together and how that's actually the subtlety of our existence of the universe. And then I thought, "Well, if this is how life is about, then I should connect in a different way with food, with my lifestyle, because I was not living a very good lifestyle. At the moment, I was studying and enjoying whatever, everything.   Mason:  Yep, partying.   Susan:  Food, parties, and everything. And it was just a radical shift, the book was more like kind of a spiritual awakening or something and triggered me to go more into the Ayurvedic philosophy. So first I started to study myself. For a few years I was just reading books and trying to heal my own foundation and basically I'd gotten really quite far with that. Then I thought, "No, I really need to change my life and help other people with the same kind of conditions." And then I started to study with a few Indian doctors, Dr. Shailesh, he's based in Pune, and then-   Mason:  By correspondence, or?   Susan:  No, I started at the Academy of Ayurvedic studies in Holland and they were collaborating with these two Indian doctors. Yeah. And then I continued afterwards.   Mason:  So, I know we can go down a rabbit hole on this, with the autoimmunity-   Susan:  Yeah.   Mason:  From your perspective, coming at it from an Ayurvedic lifestyle and medicine approach, herbal approach, were there... I know, and we've got a very high IQ listener here, so, permission to simplify. They know how huge it is to shift something like that and to get to the point now whether you feel like you're clear or in management more it'd be great to hear as well. But what are some of the pillar steps for you that you took in to get on top of that?   Susan:  Yeah. So it's like a process that took a few years, right? I couldn't change... although I quit it almost after a few months that I was working with some sort of Ayurvedic principals I could equate with the medications. But it's longer transition that I've been going through, of course, and I think it will end when I die, of course. So, it started, I think, to take out some elements of my diet. Mainly the standard things like dairy, meat, things that are hard to digest, because ulcerative colitis is a-   Mason:  Do you want to explain it a little bit? Yeah.   Susan:  Yeah, ulcerative colitis is inflammation of the large intestine. It's fairly similar to the disease of Crohn's, but then Chron can expand also to small intestine, stomach, and everything. So ulcerative colitis is only in the large intestine. So, yeah, the first question that I asked seeing the doctor, I was like, "Okay, the food, maybe, that I eat might affect my intestine, right?" And then he said, "Oh, it's not scientific. No food for that."   Susan:  And then I started to read about these things and, for example, pork meat sits for like 72 hours in your digestive track before you eliminate it, compared to 18 hours that fruit takes, for example. So, from that perspective, actually, it's almost like a biochemical approach, right? You just look at what does this substance do to your body and how much effort and energy does the body needs to put into it to digest it? And you can have a-   Mason:  Well, especially if you're in a place of deficiency and inflammation.   Susan:  Exactly, exactly. It's not meat or dairy at all, it just means that you need to select the foods carefully that meet your digestive fire.   Mason:  Ama?   Susan:  Yeah.   Mason:  I hear some things. I pick up some Ayurvedic [crosstalk 00:05:31]   Susan:  Yeah, yeah. I was doing a [inaudible 00:05:34] maybe I'm maybe a little bit drifting off.   Mason:  That's okay, I mean, diet of course was that first step.   Susan:  Diet was the first thing, and then of course meditation, having a routine. Routine was maybe the most important thing. Having dinner [inaudible 00:05:45]   Mason:  What's that?   Susan:  Kind of like a famous thing in Ayurveda is actually how you organize your life, your routine in the morning, especially. How to tune into circadian rhythms so you wake up at a set time at Brahama Muhurta, the most ideal time to wake up so actually around sunrise.   Mason:  Was that term, what was the word you that just used?   Susan:  Brahama Muhurta? That's the time before the sun rises, basically, because then the energy on earth is different.   Mason:  The hive mind hasn't awoken yet.   Susan:  Exactly. So if you wake up then, meditate... Nowadays I include different modalities. I don't believe that you just have to stick to just Ayurveda and yoga because yoga and Ayurveda are related. So I include a lot of [00:06:25] in my practice because for me, that's the most soothing practice I've encountered. And I'm a Vatta-Pitta, I need to have very soothing practices in the morning. Yeah, to calm to start the day in a peaceful and mindful way.   Mason:  I'm curious about your being a practitioner now. So you've gone down that route where you are helping and creating.   Susan:  Yeah.   Mason:  You've experienced it yourself. I'm sure you have practitioners, especially going down you had that route. It sounds like you really took it on yourself. You had your structure, so you're in a healing pattern, you limited your diet for a few years while you were healing, you had a structure for a practice in the morning while you were healing. Now, you'd be utilizing those in your practice but yet you're stepping beyond that place where you're needing to consider yourself somewhat of a patient or treat yourself because it's appropriate for times. I'm always fascinated when you've been through it and then you have patients. What I see so often is practitioners then getting trapped in, "This is how now your lifestyle needs to look for the rest of your life." And there's a bit of a stunting in staying in that, "Well, I'll always be a patient." There's a subtle fear.   Susan:  Oh, yeah.   Mason:  You know what I mean?   Susan:  I understand exactly what you mean, yeah.   Mason:  So I'm just curious because you're in it.   Susan:  To be honest, I really don't consider myself as a patient anymore. I don't know I that's the question.   Mason:  No, but that's what I get. You're not. And so that period when you were healing, healing, healing, healing and then with say, your diet or your rigid practice that is required, then how did you successfully bridge over into a lifestyle that was more dynamic?   Susan:  [crosstalk 00:08:02] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I understand what you're saying. You mean what it took from me to get to that stage.   Mason:  Either that, or how do you then inform your patients of that process?   Susan:  So, I work with people, or I'd prefer to work, it's not always working like that, for a couple of months. Especially when you need to heal severe diseases like ulcerative colitis or something. You need to work for at least three to four months or maybe six sometimes. And I always tell them, "It's a process," right? And now I might recommend to eliminate pork or meat, more heavy meat, from your diet, but this is temporary, you know? It's just to get rid of excess amount. That's what we talk about in Ayurveda when you have a buildup of toxins in your digestive tract. It's more like mucus, kind of, sticky substance that stays in your large intestines. And that can permeate through the intestinal wall and then interfere, actually, with the proteins that are running through your own blood, your own proteins. And then they start to fight because your body cannot recognize any more which proteins are yours or from undigested.   Mason:  Yes.   Susan:  So, I really believe that it's all a temporary imbalance and that you need to go through this stage of elimination and detoxification. And then afterwards, when the symptoms diminish or even are gone, then you need to start build up with Rasayanas, for example.   Mason:  Rasayanas, yeah.   Susan:  Rasayanas. Yeah, and then I'd think then you can also become a little bit more... You always need to be mindful, I think, what you're eating and how you're eating. And, or course, at the same time, you need to allow yourself, also, to relax and not to create this mental thing about food because that's a very tricky thing and there is a very fine line between these two.   Mason:  Well it's interesting you bring up the Rasayanas there, and I feel like in Rasayanas I think everyone, if you've heard the [00:09:44] episode I go over this a lot more, you might be able to learn a little bit more, but it's not about the fact that we're just like, "Now you just take Rasayana herbs. Now you take tonic herbs." It's more about the philosophy that revolves around that. It's a philosophy when you go from being sick, because, I don't know why, just bear with me as we go through this, but I feel like it's something that a lot of people would really appreciate hearing again and again and again and again. Because, you know, I just came from that mindbodygreen Revitalize weekend, right? And it was great, you know. When I'm hearing people on stage, I'll take everything with a grain of salt at all times while still respecting peoples' work heavily.   Mason:  But there was this one really well regarded MD doctor, it was basically he's just like, "Look, this is how I am with my patients. It's no spinach, no meat, no nightshades, no grain, no quinoa, no chia..." So it was very lectern-based. Anyway, it was just like the whole argument of a gorilla gets all its protein from vegetation, That really old kind of thing. And then just telling everyone they should be having tons of olive oil every day. But anyway, he was a keynote, right? I was sitting there going like, "This guy gets people who are very sick and tries to get them well and is then very confused about the fact that people need to then branch out and open up after that fact and not remain on this "I'm sick" diet."   Susan:  Exactly, yeah-   Mason:  So, this is where I get the sense that you're going through it with Rasayanas. So what's the intention there? Because you're trying to get well when you're sick, then when you're essentially well you don't have a reframing that occurs. So you're still just trying to stay well and that dictates something, there's no momentum. But it's confusing with Rasayanas, I think at the talk you came to the other night, because you were there it reminded me to mention it, with the Rasayana intent of taking an herb like Shatavari and Ashwagandha to bring spontaneous joy, allow spontaneous joy to emerge from the body. It's a very subtle intention, yet it's one that you can wrap your head around long-term, right?   Susan:  It is like a bill is a nourishing thing. It's more like, "Oh, I'm taking care of myself and my body." It's not like, "Oh, I need to..." I mean, it's more like, indeed, what you're saying. That's a good perspective, actually, to look at it from a pleasure kind of side, rather than, "I need to heal," or something. But in the stages that I go through with most of my clients, first there's kind of a lot of elimination. So maybe, also, you can lose maybe a little bit of body weight or something.   Susan:  And then you need to build up the tissues again, which is also a very nourishing practice and I would not see it as "You're still sick." I would say like, "Oh, you're taking care of yourself and you understand your body better and what is compatible with your body." And not like, "Oh, I eat maybe now french fries. So I know maybe tomorrow I might have some discomfort, but it's fine. It's fine and I know how to counteract that the day after," or something. More to understand which foods affect your body in a certain way, which is all fine, without any judgment. But then also learn from it and be mindful like, "Okay, I do this and I enjoy it, and I'm fully present in that and enjoying it. And then after, I might use some herbs or something or another [00:12:58] diet to balance it out [inaudible 00:12:59]."   Mason:  Yeah, you've got tools, right?   Susan:  You have tools, you have tools, yeah.   Mason:  You've got tools and then you embody some of the tools and then, as you go forth, you get to explore different intentions. And you've got such a vibrant lifestyle, I think. I love practitioners. And there's so many emerging that just embody... Because you need to teach that bridging, I'm getting a sense of, that bridge from, "I'm sick" towards like, "All right, now were healing. Now you need to take it on yourself." I feel like a practitioner needs to maintain that and communicate it via osmosis, that ownership and sovereignty they have within themselves, so the patient can see, "Right, now I've come to the end of my journey. I can see through the corner of my eye what the next step is," and then they can move beyond that paradigm.   Mason:  I want to go into herbs. We've had a couple chats about the herbaceous world around us, including having more and more experiences just over the past weekend, where you're deepening your relationship and entwining and little bit more. I'm going to leave it very open-ended. Where did that love affair with especially herbs begin for you personally? And then let's start diving into the way you relate to herbs through Ayurveda.   Susan:  I think my deep respect for food and for herbs came from my own experience and I think, too, deepening my meditation and some other spiritual practices and learning from Lakota elders from different tribes and how they relate to herbs and how they treat the plants. Because, yeah, you have vegan people... I'm not against vegan, I'm not necessarily in favor of it. I think everyone needs to decide what feels best for their own body. But what you see, for example, that the Lakota tribes, they treat plants in the same way as they treat animals. Also in Ayurveda there is the concept of [00:14:40], the soul of the plant. You can call it "soul," you can call it maybe, "consciousness" or "higher intelligence" resonates more with some people. But-   Mason:  And with the veganism thing, you're talking about the fact that plants are conscious?   Susan:  Always a sacrifice is made for your meal, even as plants like, effect on the environment. I mean, yeah, of course meat has a bigger impact on the [crosstalk 00:15:03]   Mason:  Well, meat has such an in-your-face impact.   Susan:  Exactly.   Mason:  There is a central nervous system that we can relate to. Yet we can't relate to the pain and emotional receptors of a plant.   Susan:  No, exactly. But I think, too, this learning with different tribes and not just with Ayurveda, but more indigenous tribes from the Amazon or something. I felt that plants have a spirit and that you can connect with it. There is a reason why in Ayurveda we're singing mantras when we prepare herbal decoctions or infusions or whatever. And why also, in the Amazon, they are connecting with the plant by singing whatever [00:15:40] or whatever to it. And I have felt it doesn't matter if you believe if there is this higher intelligence in plants or if you see that your mind is connecting in an intentful way with the plant. And that helps the acceleration of the healing, you know? I think it can work both sides. It doesn't matter how you explain it.   Susan:  But for me, with my meditation practices and other practices I've learned, I've cultivated a deep respect for plants and herbs, yeah. Because it has helped me in a symptomatic, very clear way. It just improves my life by smudging, working with cedar, different types of cedar and sage, and see how it changes my energy, the way how I feel, literally. And also I can see, for example, in post-partum, if you work with certain herbs and you come into the room with a woman who just gave birth, you feel that the aromas all the senses are stimulated by plants. And it's, do you say "undeniable?"   Mason:  It is "undeniable."   Susan:  Yeah, I mean, it's so present.   Mason:  In terms of ingesting the herbs at the same time? Is that what the example's there? Especially with the sage, of course. I feel like what you're talking to is a fanaticism in the medical system around herbs and drugs is, "Go, go, go, go, go, quick, quick, quick, quick, quick, quick. We don't have time for that, you know?"   Susan:  Quick fix.   Mason:  Yeah, quickly. And that's just hocus pocus bullshit.   Susan:  Yeah! Yeah.   Mason:  And if anything, as you said, whether you believe that here is a consciousness or a personality and an energy, you know... I'm sure with herbs you're using for treatment, you might be using teas or powders or capsules or something in that sense. It doesn't detract from that fact that slowing down and having a little bit of a connection, whether you're in the harvesting process or the usage process, I think what it does, and what you're speaking to, is as you slow down and you connect that little bit, I think that's the space where what I call the "placebo" is activated.   Susan:  Exactly, yeah. You could see it like that. So, even if it's just smelling the herb before you take it or just ask to help, I mean, yeah maybe it sounds a bit out of air, but I really believe it, that if you ask for... No, maybe if you're like really trying to connect with it, and not just like, "Okay, I use it as a, whatever, it's there." If you use it with a certain intention and with a certain respect, yeah, it's a really big difference if you take in herbs in that way, rather than just on the go, in the car, and I take a few capsules because I need some supplement, or something, some minerals.   Mason:  Give me, give me, give me, give me-   Susan:  Give me, exactly. Yeah.   Mason:  Were there any herbs in particular? I'm sure it's many, and I know it's not about just one herb, but there are any herbs that really swept you off your feet?   Susan:  Yeah, like Boswellia Serrata.   Mason:  [inaudible 00:18:15]?   Susan:  Frankincense. Yeah, also already its aroma is super strong. But I also felt, after working it for a month doing mono diet and then just trying to ingest it and try to feel what's happening with my body-   Mason:  Explain the mono diet.   Susan:  Ayurveda, there are some fasting methods. But for certain types of people like more Vatta dominating people, predominately Vatta types, fasting is not always the best thing because it can disrupt their digestive fire and everything and make them less grounded. So then you have mono diet. You eat three times a day, basically the same meal like, one type of grains, most of the time it's kitchri, but you can use one type of grain if another grain appeals more to you, I'm not very rigid around that.   Mason:  Including the herb at the same time?   Susan:  I take it before eating the food. I take ingest it before.   Mason:  That's kind of like your [00:19:04].   Susan:  Yeah, kind of, and I did that also. I mean, I wish I did it with all the herbs that I'm using. But this is a long lifetime practice to connect with herbs on a more deeper level than just in a mind, how do you say, it ventures from...   Mason:  Like a materia medica sense?   Susan:  Yeah, exactly More from a mind perspective rather than really feeling into it.   Mason:  Yeah, that's beautiful, I like-   Susan:  Also that devadaru seed is actually the Himalyan ceder wood.   Mason:  What's it called?   Susan:  Cedrus deodara. In Sanskrit it's devadaru I had also incredible experiences with that because I was reading in the sutras about it, what kind of effects it would have, and then [inaudible 00:19:43] more biochemical approach. But then, when I was using it, I realized that, because it was actually in the ancient text it says it's heating to the body and I have a high Pitta, so high heat in my body. But I was working with it and then I felt like, whoa, I don't feel that aspect of it. So I think it's also very important to sometimes detach from all the knowledge that you have. Is it not that Lao Tzu once said that you need to get rid of everything that you learned in order to really like-   Mason:  That's frustrating.   Susan:  It is!   Mason:  Like, when you feel kind of like, "Gosh, I know my shit." That's why I think it's like, whether you're someone like myself, who was previously like, "No, I'm not going anywhere near that practitioner realm because I want to guard the image that I have" or if you're a practitioner that's like, "No, I know the energetics, I know that this one's heating and that one's cooling and that that's a heating disease so you use a cooling herb." And that is sense where there's no nuance in both cases. It's the ultimate maturity, right? To be like, "Cool, I know a lot, but I know nothing. And I'm willing for it to be colorful."   Susan:  And to open up to the experience, right? Without any preconceptions that you have. Just, okay, let's allow yourself to let the herb do it's work and then see what's happening. If it's expanding, or is it contracting? Whatever is happening in the body. It's so fascinating. I love to work with it.   Mason:  Unfortunately, you're going to have to look outside of the box sometimes in order to get the most amazing results. That's kind of like I felt in my beginnings because, especially in the beginning, I was such in that multidimensional world. I felt like a tripper. I couldn't quite connect it to a symptomatic response which would ground this way of approaching. I was just in that instinctively feeling, "I think you should go and explore this direction of health. I think you really need to work on your skin and detoxifying your skin" or "I really think you need to be working on your estrogen." And just take these long-winded parts connecting it to whatever the symptomatic response was. And I think everyone, especially in the medical and practitioner community, doesn't trust that instinct that emerges.   Susan:  I really fully agree. I think so. Because we are so trained to look at herbs into that system that I have a lot of respect of this heritage of all this kind of knowledge, but then-   Mason:  Of course. It's beyond useful.   Susan:  But still, for me it's very important what my own experience is with a herb. And that can only build it after months of using it on a consistent basis.   Mason:  Before I ask you about being a doula, is there some other herbs that you use in practice that you just want to give a little shout out?   Susan:  So you asked also something about what my relationship was with Ayurveda and herbs. I feel nowadays I really want to explore the herbs that grow around my surrounding, right? In Topanga. So what is growing here and what helps me here, rather than just working with the traditional Ayurveda herbs. Although, I feel if you're talking about Rasayanas, it's for me very difficult to find the same kind of quality, that nourishing tonic kind of, more what you talk about tonics. I think the tonics and Rasayanas are very similar. And I feel like, in that aspect, I didn't encounter yet the same kind of quality and profoundness of herbs in my own area. So then I reached back to indeed Ashwagandha, Shatavari, Amalaki, Triphala, like whatever, these kind of more-   Mason:  Triphala, delicious   Susan:  They are so delicious. Everyone loves it. Maybe then capsules is sometimes the right thing.   Mason:  Yeah.   Susan:  And Mustaka whatever, Brahmi, these kind of things, feel very profound. But, for example, if I have a client or something, or even myself, a UTI, for example, a quite clear symptom, then I would really recommend to just use Uva Ursi or burdock or marshmallow or other kind of herbs.   Mason:  Right, well that's it. Yeah-   Susan:  Sometimes the symptomatic approach is not-   Mason:  Well, it's ideal. Just like, I'm not sure what the other classifications. It's a bit like a Rasayana has its own clinical intent. We know what Ashwagandha does. But if the whole, "Oh, they're adaptogens, you can use them for anything at any time," it's not... Like, a Rasayana mostly, a tonic, is to strengthen the body, make it resilient, allow spontaneous joy to come forth because you know the system is calm and you can work on yourself. And that's why that's the superior herbs and tonic herbalism. That's they're intent.   Susan:  Are you nourishing the Qi, right? With tonics.   Mason:  No, not necessarily, I mean, with a herb like astragalus, is pure Qi. It's a Qi tonic, so you're nourishing lung and spleen, right? And so it's tonifying from that angle. And in terms of everything building and sealing, it's just not quite the case with a tonic. It's like it's too much of a broad brush, over a tonic. No, we only use tonic in times of sickness to build back the body after it's been emaciated. Whereas, if you then get an appropriate dose and keep your finger on the pulse of your own energy, the whole point is that you're strengthening systems of the body so they can do what they need to do, rather than just purely tightening and toning the body or the system. You know, of course Cordyceps in instance of autoimmunity as is Reishi, has been shown to be bringing back the capacity for T-cell regulation to return and so we see autoimmunity or antibodies implicated decreasing.   Susan:  Similar effect as [inaudible 00:24:51].   Mason:  Yeah, exactly. In particular instances. But, I think that's where people don't realize that there is those tiers. So that's the superior herbs and then in the regular herbs, like [00:25:02], and, as you were talking to there, herbs that I used to treat symptoms specifically, and they have a slight toxicity about them.   Susan:  Yeah, so you need to use it, indeed, for a limited period of time.   Mason:  For a limited time-   Susan:  And that's prefect-   Mason:  Rasayanas and tonics, I feel like they're just nontoxic. Which people think, "Oh my god, I can have them as much as I want?" No, that's not the case.   Susan:  No, no. Exactly, exactly, exactly. And from an Ayurvedic is always because Rasayanas are a little bit harder to digest, in general, than other herbs, so from that aspect Ayurveda always would include some sort of [00:25:37], that's what we call [00:25:38] as a vehicle that you ingest a herb with. So like some sort of substance that can be like gi or aloe vera that helps to-   Mason:  Did you say, "aloe vera?" for a Pitta?   Susan:  Yeah.   Mason:  For someone inflamed or [crosstalk 00:25:50]. Aloe vera's one of my favorites, I grew up with it.   Susan:  Or with a ginger decoction or something that helps the digestion of Rasayanas-   Mason:  I think that's a crossover. Humans necessarily created a hot elixir for themselves, or they would pair the herbs with a delivery system, quite often a flavoring, or a fat-like gi, or whatever it was, in order to buffer the releasing of all the medicines. And especially ginger, an absolute perfect example of the amount of, especially paired with licorice, the amount of blends in TCM that are just rounded out with ginger or rounded out with mint. These herbs, they weave everything together, you know? Especially licorice, it's just the ultimate weaver-   Susan:  Is licorice more well known for that property than ginger in Chinese medicine?   Mason:  Yeah, licorice I believe is the most used herb in Chinese medicine.   Susan:  Interesting, so that's maybe the ginger of-   Mason:  It's the great magnifier. But it's a wonderful Qi tonic at the same time . And so it's a digestive... You know, so much starts with digestion, ama, spleen. It's like Hippocrates, "All disease begins in the gut. All disease, then, ends in the gut."   Susan:  Exactly, yeah, I really believe that.   Mason:  Yeah, so from Taoist perspective, we're trying to maintain our vital Xing. I'm not sure what is like-   Susan:  That would be [00:27:02] I think in-   Mason:  [00:27:03]. But, it's like yes, your [00:27:05], Xing, like a pilot light, I'm not sure if this is the same correlation, a pilot light for ama. But, it's like these are kind of like the pilot light for the spleen, and therefore cooking the pot of the stomach, right?   Susan:  Hmm. That's interesting.   Mason:  Everyone, continuously, we need to restore the Xing first in the West from, this is just my perspective, it's not definitive. But then, you need to psychologically make the transition towards managing your Qi, digestion, and your breath. And so the focus, to keep our finger on the pulse in what we're talking about, getting to a place where you're no longer exhausted or sick. You're watching yourself in the way that your capacity to digest and your capacity to utilize your food and breath, or lack thereof, and stay warm, continue to circulate and stay somewhat in harmony emotionally. That's all kind of comes back to the spleen.   Mason:  And so, when you see one of the primary spleen and Qi and harmonizing tonics is licorice, there the proof is in the pudding that long-term it's that middle ground where you can sit really long-term, keeping your finger on the pulse, and it gives you a real long view of your life. It's like a real tortoise and the hare, an amalgamation of both. And I feel like I hear ama being brought up so much, and unless you've embodied your ability to take responsibility for yourself once you've healed, I feel like then you can reapproach digestive Qi, digestive capacity, and ama with a whole new light. You don't feel like you're sick and you're just limited.   Susan:  Yeah, that's very true.   Mason:  This is the reality, yeah. You want to elaborate on that?   Susan:  Elaborate on that? No, I think I agree, yeah, what you're saying. I mean, I don't know if the spleen and the ama... I mean, the ama is a result of indigestion, right? So I think where the focus in Chinese medicine is on the spleen, I think in Ayurvedic it's really about the stomach, the small intestine, the large intestine, that area more.   Mason:  But it's the same world, just different points of view.   Susan:  Exactly.   Mason:  So, I'm really curious about what talked you into being a doula, as well.   Susan:  Oh, yeah.   Mason:  It comes up so much on this Podcast, you know? Just that sacred space and that sacred realm that I didn't realize we were going to be heading into that direction. And yeah, just go nuts.   Susan:  Part of my Ayurvedic training included some post-partum work, and I started, basically, just to help first friends that gave birth. And I came there and then I had such a profound experience with one of my friends that had a very tough labor. And then I started to give her a massage. And in Ayurveda there's this concept of that the soul of the baby and the could of the mother are connected for the first two years of their lives. And I experienced, at least in this first few weeks of the life of the baby, I felt like as soon as the mother was nourished and taken care of and relaxed, as soon as I started to massage her for example, the baby started to calm down. For me, it was like, "Whoa, this is quite profound." [crosstalk 00:29:56] or something. It was just amazing to see the effect and that's where it came from that I wanted to focus more on that transition that women are going through when they gave birth.   Mason:  Looking at post-partum, fourth trimester, what's your approach?   Susan:  You mean for the women that I supported? I mean, what my approach is? I mean the fourth trimester, yeah, in many indigenous tribes and cultures, or ancient cultures, that fourth trimester women need to be taken care of and nourished by family or friends. And that's what I would like to being a little bit more in this modern society. I think more awareness of that transition that women are going through and that fourth trimester is almost even more important. Because you see often women are pregnant and then there's a lot of attention in these first nine months. And then the baby's born and then I think, "Okay, the baby's born."   Susan:  But I think it's very important to support women in this period afterwords because, I mean, one in ten, I think it was one of the statistics recently published, that one in ten women get post-partum depression and these kind of things. And it can be very well treated if there is the right attention and support for these women. There is this hormonal imbalance, of course, that can be treated with herbs, for example, Vitex is very good for that, mugwort-   Mason:  Vitex is magic, yeah.   Susan:  Balances mood. And also like when people go through miscarriages it's very important that women have support in that recovering. It's such a transformative thing, spiritually, emotionally, physically-   Mason:  Are you personalizing a lot of the herbal approach post-partum? Or are there herbs like Vitex that you feel are quite across the board, essentially appropriate for most people?   Susan:  Yes, I have to say yes. Although I know Vitex is a little bit heating but I've really seen good results in many cases-   Mason:  Yeah, it's like keep your finger on the pulse.   Susan:  Yeah. And Borage oil, for example, is very good, I think. It has an antidepressant-like action. Giving massage for that, I know that in traditional Ayurveda they use [00:31:53] after pregnancy. But Borage, I have a personal connection with Borage oil.   Mason:  What's the practice where you're just oiling yourself up?   Susan:  That's called a [00:32:03]   Mason:  A [00:32:03].   Susan:  Yeah, and that's very important after giving birth because the nervous system and everything needs to calm down.   Mason:  I mean, [inaudible 00:32:10], my fiance, when she gets the chance, she practices that and I can always get the sense of absolute parasympathetic emerging. I mean, I can't believe-   Susan:  It's very soothing.   Mason:  Yeah, I mean, I can't believe we don't... When there's an athlete that's done an ultramarathon, there's so much focus placed on their recovery in order to get themselves to be able to compete again. And for themselves, they're... But culturally, I think this is obvious to everyone that's going to be listening, but culturally that fourth trimester we completely underestimate just how much you need to regenerate after birth. Far out.   Susan:  Completely, yeah.   Mason:  Okay, Vitex, any other general, obviously this is general-   Susan:  Abhyanga is one of the most important, I think, practices. But also to bring in some devour of an aroma or sage baths or some sort of more rituals of something to honor that stage of a woman's life. I think it's very important. And just holding space for women in that period is very important. I mean, it's all a combination of things, of nourishing food is also very important. Suggest food that gets [inaudible 00:33:19] for them, herbal soups but also bone broth, they need to build up-   Mason:  Build it back.   Susan:  Yeah.   Mason:  Is watermelon seed a thing in India? I might have made that up. Completely.   Susan:  Watermelon seed? Especially in post-partum or?   Mason:  Yeah, I mean I just remember looking through all the post-, this is almost three years ago, looking at them all, of course, it's like wherever you're at it's nourishing Xing-building herbs a lot of the time or broths and soups. Soup are nourishing. I'm sure it was in China, it's pork after birth, you know? And in India it's many things. But watermelon seeds, I was like, watermelon seeds [crosstalk 00:33:52]   Susan:  I didn't hear about this. So I haven't learned about [crosstalk 00:33:56]   Mason:  I was like, you know, sometimes you get into that frame of mind you read something you're like, "Okay, cool, I'm down."   Susan:  "Yeah, I need to do that."   Mason:  "Yeah, okay got to do pork, and I've got to do watermelon seeds, I've got to do Cordyceps, I've got to do that..." And you're like, "Okay, no, maybe I can just drop a couple of these and get back to what the real intention is here."   Susan:  Yeah, exactly. And Shatavari is the most famous one.   Mason:  Shatavari?   Susan:  Yeah.   Mason:  Mm-hmm (affirmative). Asparagus magic.   Susan:  Yeah.   Mason:  Well, it would be interesting to get your two cents. When women ask from our collective what's going to be useful, quite often Reishi's one that's there to be considered. It's got the, I don't know what you'd call it, the brand? Around being good for sleep, but essentially, it's a Shen tonic. So, the calming the mind, maintaining adaptability of the mind in unifying with the body, so that you can continue to develop your conscious awareness of what's going on. So number one, essentially, because you're changing so heavily and if you've got stuck mental patterns that you haven't dealt with during that child-bearing stage, you'll get stuck in quite often depression can emerge, so on and so forth.   Mason:  Shatavari, from the Taoist perspective, is considered one of the most beautiful Shen tonics. Reishi gets in and really can change your direction. Shatavari in my experience creates this atmosphere and this adapting atmospheric pressure for your mind and for your consciousness, which is just really beautiful, present space. The Taoists, their main intention for long-term for using it was to enable you to fly. To fly with your consciousness and fly with your dreams and be free, right?   Susan:  And can see it from the perspectives as Shatavari is working on the blood, right? And the blood and Shen are very much related?   Mason:  Yes.   Susan:  So I can imagine that case is the seed of the Shen right? So, if the blood is built, and good, and especially very important after post-partum, right? That the blood is built again, and nourished.   Mason:  Obviously so much of yoga is-   Susan:  And raspberry leaf.   Mason:  Oh, raspberry leaf   Susan:  [crosstalk 00:35:51]   Mason:  And nettle.   Susan:  And nettle, indeed, yeah. I've been now reading a little bit into the blue cohosh thing and that's what I find biggest in the Native American traditions, blue cohosh was used to, even in giving labor, to dilate the birth canal. But then I reading like what kind of pop med studies.   Mason:  Pop med?   Susan:  Yeah, studies like more biochemical approaches and then they show that it can create some birth defects or something. So I'm still figuring out what I feel for that. I didn't feel confident yet to prescribe that herb. But, anyway, I really feel like those Native American traditions, they have a deeper understanding, maybe, than some scientists nowadays have. You never what agenda is behind a study. So that's a bit of a tricky thing sometimes with herbs.   Mason:  Yeah, it's a double-edged sword.   Susan:  Yeah.   Mason:  Because sometimes we find out these amazing little nuances from herbs from these studies and sometimes, of course, people are like, "Oh my gosh, this herb is really toxic to the liver. Oh, I'm never taking it again." You'd look at the dose that they gave the rats and it's just unreasonable.   Susan:  Yeah, exactly! Or they just extract one compound, right? And then they magnify that thing. And that's, I think where Chinese medicine and Ayurveda meet, is that we look at plants as a holistic being, right? Nothing is like for no reason there. So everything is working together, all the compounds, and they interact and they create synergy together and that's how it affects the body and you cannot really just extract. That's also, they never found, I think, in ginseng the active compound, right? If I'm not mistaken?   Mason:  Ginseng asides are being variously discovered and they're trying to attribute different aspects to those compounds [crosstalk 00:37:21]   Susan:  But they can never extract, right? They could never extract the particle of the herb that was the-   Mason:  No, they don't know what it is.   Susan:  No.   Mason:  It's like with St. John's Wort. Different countries associate different active constituents to be the primary. And that's just my favorite example. There's so much of Chaga mushroom and Reishi mushroom that haven't been identified yet. And we could assume the same of majority of herbs. And I like what you said. With pregnancy especially, it's like, "Are these herbs safe during pregnancy?"   Susan:  Yeah, it's even more important than treating individual clients. I mean, I feel more confidence prescribing a herb when it's just small infection, of course, than when it's a pregnancy concerned or even childbirth. I mean, yeah-   Mason:  Of course, I mean-   Susan:  Such a fragile state.   Mason:  Well, it's a fragile state but I think the difference when we look traditionally, they had a different understanding. And I think they had a different understanding because they slowed themselves down. They understood in their administering. Some people will be like, "Oh, they used Eucommia bark and Reishi in pregnancy traditionally. So they're cool to go." And it's like, "Well..." If you look especially at any point you introduce something slowly, so you can take that pause that we were talking about earlier, the awareness of the herb, allow yourself to experience it.   Mason:  Now, then the other thing that comes about is the fact that you were saying "herbal interactions." So, some herbs are friends, some are enemies, some lift each other up, some dampen each other, some kill each other, and some are complete servants to others. Although it seems complicated, it's generally not. Especially in a Rasayana or a tonic herb perspective, it's like a do-it-yourself at home experiment. It gets a little bit trickier when you get down into treatment herbs. But, at the same time, in the instances of herbal application during pregnancy, traditionally, they knew that slow response and indifferent states herbs were going to have different reactions with each other. And so they just took it slow. They just went and started with minute amounts, or they knew each other so intimately that they went, "I know this herb and I know you, you're going to get along really well."   Susan:  Yeah! And I also think they were way more conscious about the setting, what they created around how they administered it. And I think the setting is very important also.   Mason:  What kind of setting do you create?   Susan:  I mean, I'm not like a birth doula, right?   Mason:  Yeah.   Susan:  Sorry. Okay.   Mason:  Yeah, just like in general, creating that healing environment, especially post-partum. You've talked about aromas-   Susan:  Yeah. It depends what the woman needs in that specific moment, right? So sometimes it's just listening. But, I mean, there's always an aspect that first checking in, what are the needs at the moment? Does she need protective sleep? Is the main priority? But then still, I'm bringing in essential oils or some baths, sage baths or something else. That connects them more with it's a sacred space and time in life, right? So that connects them with, a little bit more, with their body and it brings them back to their heart basically.   Mason:  And what you were saying in terms of just asking, I feel like that's-   Susan:  Checking in.   Mason:  Just checking in.   Susan:  It's very important. Maybe she didn't eat for six hours or something. So at first we'll prepare some food, you know? It depends. I always, every time when I visit, it's bring in in some sort of connection with a herb. It can be essential oils, just bring a diffuser. Can be like an oil that I've prepared myself. Mugwort or Borage or whatever.   Mason:  Oh, so good.   Susan:  Yeah.   Mason:  That must be fun work.   Susan:  It is. For me, the doula work brought in all aspects that I really love. This deeper connection with one person, or actually a family. And I like to cook, I like to prepare herbs. What I like in the doula work is that I prepare the oils myself. It's more like a personal longer-term connection that's built. That's what I really like. And the effect that you can see.   Mason:  Yeah, that's so real. So non-superficial   Susan:  Yeah. Yeah. And it's very humbling. I mean, the only thing that you're doing there is to serve and checking what does the person need? You know? And, I don't know, it's just beautiful.   Mason:  So, before we completely rewind, first of all, what are the two... So, we're in your room up here-   Susan:  This is mugwort [inaudible 00:41:24]-   Mason:  So you've got a mugwort brew.   Susan:  Tincture, yeah.   Mason:  Why is it a-   Susan:  It's a tincture.   Mason:  What's the menstruum?   Susan:  You mean this [crosstalk 00:41:30]? It's like 40%.   Mason:  It's kind of vodka.   Susan:  Yeah. Yeah. I just, yeah. I could only find this online to buy a high percentage but I think it's fine.   Mason:  Yeah, 40% gets the job done.   Susan:  And this one is royal [inaudible 00:41:40] it's like a good kidney tonic. It works. So this is, I just forawrd these herbs.   Mason:  From the area? What was that other one, sorry?   Susan:  Royal [00:41:48]   Mason:  Okay.   Susan:  It's used by the Chumash Indians for kidney disorders. It's a kidney tonic. Also a bit of a diuretic. Help with a little bit with UTIs and these kid of things. And because the tincture is fast-acting so it works on infections quite well.   Mason:  Just bringing it in to land, are there any texts or YouTube channels or anything that you'd like, or have you got any resource, if anyone wants to go bring a little bit more of the Ayurvedic practices into their lives? Especially-   Susan:  Yeah, I mean, I really try to combine to balance out a little bit the ancient text with just biochemical studies, like modern science. So the ancient text that I use is Charaka Samhita. Yeah, it's I think the most fundamental text that's written about it. And then Ashtanga Hridayam is a little bit more easy to understand. So I think maybe you start with Ashtanga Hridayam. Yeah, it' describes basic principals of Ayurveda. And some people like argue a little bit against a modern interpretations, but I like the books of [00:42:53] a lot, and David Frawley. I like it. I mean, I think-   Mason:  I know David Frawley. Michael Tierra's got a good book that came with his course called The Way of Ayurvedic Herbs that was really nice as well.   Susan:  Who, sorry?   Mason:  Michael Tierra.   Susan:  Michael Tierra.   Mason:  Yeah, he's interesting. He's doing a lot of what a lot of people are doing. Doing a lot of bridging and helping people interpret Ayurvedic TCM and Western herbalism and saying where they cross paths.   Susan:  Yeah, that's interesting. And Robert Svoboda.   Mason:  Svoboda, okay.   Susan:  Yeah, he has interesting... And actually one of my teachers is Atreya Smith, and he has also for me very easy to understand interpretations of Charaka Samhita. So, one of his book is Dravyaguna for Westerners. That's one of the books that I use most oftenly because he uses Western herbs and has Ayurvedic monographs of them.   Mason:  Nice.   Susan:  So very, very useful, yeah.   Mason:  Beautiful. We'll get those in the notes. It's 11:11am. That sounds like a perfect time for us to wrap it up. Thanks heaps for coming on. So, yeah. Your website, best way to connect with you?   Susan:  Is inanacare.com   Mason:  How do I spell it?   Susan:  I-n-a-n-n-a-care.com   Mason:  Perfecto. We'll put it in the notes plus all those texts that you were talking about. Thanks so much for coming on.   Susan:  Thank you too, Mason. Was nice.

The High Priest is here to remind us we are our own spiritual teachers! Let’s go on a journey together and expand our view of herbs with The Herbal Tarot by Michael Tierra. You can purchase the deck & book together: planetherbs.com/shop/herbal-tarot-deck-spirit-of-herbs-companion-book-set/ And remember to become a patron of Herbal Marie today to really help this herbal podcast grow! www.patreon.com/herbalmarie --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/herbalmarie/message

The Emperor is here to teach us about power and getting things done! Let’s go on a journey together and expand our view of herbs with The Herbal Tarot by Michael Tierra. You can purchase the deck & book together: planetherbs.com/shop/herbal-tarot-deck-spirit-of-herbs-companion-book-set/ And remember to become a patron of Herbal Marie today to really help this herbal podcast grow! www.patreon.com/herbalmarie --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/herbalmarie/message

The Empress is ALL about love and creation and nurturing what we love! Let’s go on a journey together and expand our view of herbs with The Herbal Tarot by Michael Tierra. You can purchase the deck & book together: planetherbs.com/shop/herbal-tarot-deck-spirit-of-herbs-companion-book-set/ And remember to become a patron of Herbal Marie today to really help this herbal podcast grow! www.patreon.com/herbalmarie --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/herbalmarie/message

The High Priestess and Peony are here to remind us to GO WiTHiN and trust our inner guidance. Allow ourselves to see the unity in all things and let the energy flow! Let’s go on a journey together and expand our view of herbs with The Herbal Tarot by Michael Tierra. You can purchase the deck & book together: planetherbs.com/shop/herbal-tarot-deck-spirit-of-herbs-companion-book-set/ And remember to become a patron of Herbal Marie today to really help this herbal podcast grow! www.patreon.com/herbalmarie --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/herbalmarie/message

The Magician is here to remind us we have everything we need so it's time to focus and manifest our heart's desires! Time to tap into our unlimited potential, strong willpower and make the move forward. Say Yes and Look within 4 inspiration. Side note: Don't be a selfish hog. Let’s go on a journey together and expand our view of herbs with The Herbal Tarot by Michael Tierra. You can purchase the deck & book together: planetherbs.com/shop/herbal-tarot-deck-spirit-of-herbs-companion-book-set/ And remember to become a patron of Herbal Marie today to really help this herbal podcast grow! www.patreon.com/herbalmarie --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/herbalmarie/message

The Fool (aka me) is all about remembering who you truly are, following your divine guidance and knowing you have everything you need!  Who cares if others see you as being foolish - you gotta shine your light and live your life! Let’s go on a journey together and expand our view of herbs with The Herbal Tarot by Michael Tierra.  You can purchase the deck & book together: https://planetherbs.com/shop/herbal-tarot-deck-spirit-of-herbs-companion-book-set/ And remember to become a patron of Herbal Marie today to really help this herbal podcast grow! https://www.patreon.com/herbalmarie --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/herbalmarie/message

This is a reairing of a show that was until today was only available to Herbal Nerd Society Members.Plants may be the medicine of the people but not all plants are equal in the eyes of the law. Over the past few months, kratom has been targeted by the United States DEA (Drug Enforcement Administration) and FDA (Food and Drug Administration) as a potentially dangerous plant and it's not the first. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Hey Superfeasters, today marks the inaugural SuperFeast podcast and we are super stoked to say the least! SuperFeast founder Mason Taylor shares airtime with his work and life partner, Tahnee McCrossin. In today’s introductory podcast, Mason and Tahnee cover everything you need to know about SuperFeast, themselves and what you can expect from this epic podcast. This includes how SuperFeast was born (literally from Mason’s mum’s spare room) and explore an umbrella view of the herbs, what they are, how to integrate them into your daily life and the countless benefits that arise from working with the herbs. “It’s not just about putting a powder in your smoothie it’s about connecting with the energy of something from the earth that has its own intention and its own consciousness” - Tahnee McCrossin In today’s episode we will cover: Who are Mason Taylor and Tahnee McCrossin? The personal journey that lead to SuperFeast’s creation in 2011 Why we are so into medicinal mushrooms Adaptive herbs and how they support and nourish the bodily systems (our core philosophy) Why we chose to work with herbs that support conscious and constitutional shifts Learning about the magic of these herbs knowing they’re not a silver bullet Tonic herbs are aligned with natural rhythms and long term health upgrades The herbs have their own intention and connection to the source We love our SuperFeast community! Why we source herbs Di Tao Purity of SuperFeast herbs – wild and no fillers SuperFeast core values and intentions Reconnecting with an ancient herbal system The crazy benefits of sourcing wild and semi-wildrcrafted herbs Practical uses for the herbs and daily integration About Mason Mason Taylor is a wellness educator, host of The Mason Taylor Show podcast, professional speaker and retreat facilitator. He is a passionate tonic herbalist and founder of Australia’s leading tonic herb and medicinal mushroom provider, SuperFeast. Mason is dedicated to teaching people of all walks of life how to embrace and benefit from the healing forces of nature as they create a unique and dynamic health philosophy. A long and happy life is the intention. Mason also brings a refreshing and cheeky sense of humour to his talks, podcast, and life, because longevity relies on a good belly laugh. About Tahnee Tahnee McCrossin is a student of the body, weaving the ancient healing traditions of Yoga and Taoism with somatic exploration and modern scientific understanding into an integrated system that supports longevity and self-healing of the body-mind-spirit. Through her work as a yoga and meditation teacher, chi ne tsang practitioner and health researcher, she is striving to reunite the modern body-mind with the spiritual and psychological wisdom of the ancients. She is grateful to be a current student of Mantak Chia, Paul Grilley and Michael Tierra.   Resources SuperFeast Websitesuperfeast.com.au (sign up to the epic SuperFeast newsletter for 10% off your first order!) SuperFeast Instagram@superfeast Mason Instagram@maysonjtaylor  Tahnee Instagram@tahneemccrossin SuperFeast Phone1300 769 500  SuperFeast Emailteam@superfeast.com.au - got any podcast ideas? Let us know ☺! What are tonic herbs? https://www.superfeast.com.au/blogs/superblog/tonic-herbs-what-are-they What is Di Tao? https://www.superfeast.com.au/blogs/superblog/what-is-di-tao   Q: How Can I Support The SuperFeast Podcast? A: Tell all your friends and family and share online! We’d also love it if you could subscribe and review this podcast on iTunes.  

Today at SuperFeast headquarters, Mason and Tahnee talk all things Taoist tonic herbalism. What the heck is Taoism? Don’t worry, by the end of this discussion, you’ll be all over this ancient philosophy (especially when it comes to herbal practice!) SuperFeast prides itself on respecting the ancient tradition of tonic herbalism that emerged through the Orient and respecting the ancient wisdom from those before us. Mason and Tahnee dive deep into how the ancient tonic herbalists lived and how we, the modern human, can learn and incorporate these practices into our daily lifestyles. Exactly how does our current Western lifestyle affect us? The lifestyle which disturbs our circadian rhythms and promotes us being out of flow with the natural cycles of nature? Short answer - degeneration and ageing; we’re here to change that. Listen to join us on this mission. In this episode you will learn: Taoist tonic herb philosophy Macrocosm vs microcosm of herbalism Why women should have as much sex as they like The formula for good Qi flowing through the body What Qi is and how it animates you Our approach to diet Why we search for the path of least resistance in health and herbal practice Why an adaptable mind allows for epic health How to become a ‘somanaut’ through the tonic herbs Why separation from nature is the root cause of illness How to prevent having “flabby” immune systems Transformation through these herbs Why we’re dropping reishi bombs of consciousness around the world Why longevity isn’t an overnight phenomenon We provide good quality, epic, non-irradiated wild herbs - based on Di Tao principles Tonic herbs are multi-directional and their benefits accumulate over time Quick overview of the three treasures Qi, Jing and Shen - more in future episodes! One of the missing links in Western philosophy, the energetics of herbs About Mason Mason Taylor is a wellness educator, host of The Mason Taylor Show podcast, professional speaker and retreat facilitator. He is a passionate tonic herbalist and founder of Australia’s leading tonic herb and medicinal mushroom provider, SuperFeast. Mason is dedicated to teaching people of all walks of life how to embrace and benefit from the healing forces of nature as they create a unique and dynamic health philosophy. A long and happy life is the intention. Mason also brings a refreshing and cheeky sense of humour to his talks, podcast, and life, because longevity relies on a good belly laugh.   About Tahnee Tahnee McCrossin is a student of the body, weaving the ancient healing traditions of Yoga and Taoism with somatic exploration and modern scientific understanding into an integrated system that supports longevity and self-healing of the body-mind-spirit. Through her work as a yoga and meditation teacher, chi ne tsang practitioner and health researcher, she is striving to reunite the modern body-mind with the spiritual and psychological wisdom of the ancients. She is grateful to be a current student of Mantak Chia, Paul Grilley and Michael Tierra.     Resources SuperFeast Websitesuperfeast.com.au (sign up to the epic SuperFeast newsletter for 10% off your first order!) SuperFeast Instagram@superfeast Mason Instagram@maysonjtaylor  Tahnee Instagram@tahneemccrossin SuperFeast Phone1300 769 500 SuperFeast Emailteam@superfeast.com.au - got any podcast ideas? Let us know ☺! Mason and Tahnee are learning with Michael Tierrahttps://planetherbs.com/ Shen Nong The Divine Farmer’s Materia Medica https://www.amazon.com/Divine-Farmers-Materia-Medica-Translation/dp/0936185961 Q: How Can I Support The SuperFeast Podcast? A: Tell all your friends and family and share online! We’d also love it if you could subscribe and review this podcast on iTunes.  

Rosalee de la Foret joins the Vidal Speaks podcast for the second part of the conversation about how and which spices and herbs to incorporate into your daily meal, to transform your food into medicine.   Nature's medicine is again proving that these so-called “incurable diseases” can be treated and healing can be achieved. Toxins damage our cellular function and if we actively detox, we can enjoy the health that our bodies naturally promote.   If you want to know more about Rosalee before listening to this amazing talk, here are some details about her journey. For over a decade her calling has been helping people to radically change their health using herbs and other natural remedies. Through this, she has helped hundreds of clients reclaim their health and has taught thousands of herbal students in online courses and intensive retreats. She is the Education Director for LearningHerbs, one of the most innovative herbal companies of our time, and is a professional member of the American Herbalist Guild RH (AHG).   But her story begins long before she had become a successful herbalist. She admits she's been a natural health nerd her entire life. As a teenager, she would prowl the natural health foods store and look up remedies in the Natural Prescription for Health book by Phyllis Balch.   But while she had long been interested in natural remedies she didn't really take them seriously until they saved her life. When she was 23 she suddenly became very sick. She spent an entire month in bed, tormented with musculoskeletal pain, an itchy body rash that came and went, and a fever that spiked at night and went away during the day. She was finally hospitalized after becoming severely dehydrated and after two weeks was diagnosed with a rare autoimmune disease called Still's. The doctors didn't have good news. They gave her steroids and said it would be a slow and painful decline to an early death.   For about three days she just cried and cried and wondered, “why me?” But then, she did what she had always done and started researching alternative solutions to autoimmunity diseases to see what she could find.   Over time she began to see that there were lots of small signs leading up to her autoimmunity disease and her “healthy” soy vegetarian diet wasn't serving her. She realized she needed a total health makeover to purge a lot of health fads from her life. She also assembled a team of people to help her, from acupuncturists to herbalists to naturopaths to massage therapists.   After six months of intensive work, she became symptom-free from this “terminal” and “incurable” disease and she has continued to live symptom-free for over a decade.   Her experience with autoimmunity further inspired her to delve into the natural health world. She knew she wanted to help people like her: people who wanted to find the root cause of their health problems so they could live a healthy and vibrant life.   She thought about being a naturopath but she didn't want to focus on supplements or any type of one-size-fits-all medicine (similar to western medicine). She thought about becoming an acupuncturist but she knew that in China the major form of medicine was the plants. So, she decided to study the art of herbalism.   She has over 10 years of training as an herbalist, from ethnobotany and wildcrafting to clinical herbalism. She's graduated from the four-year clinical program at the East West School of Herbology and has been mentored by some of the most outstanding herbalists of our time, including Michael Tierra, Paul Bergner, and Karta Purkh Singh Khalsa.   Besides her interest in herbalism, she also spent four years of intensive training as a Structural Medicine Specialist with the Institute of Structural Medicine. Through that process, she became a licensed massage therapist and practiced for five years before turning her full attention to herbs.   She has helped people use herbs to get better health since 2006. She now works with people all over the world through long-distance consultations via the telephone and Skype.   She also is very dedicated to herbal education. She is the Education Director for LearningHerbs.com, which is one of the most innovative herbal companies that exist today. She regularly provides how-to articles, herbal recipes, videos, and herbal presentations for their website HerbMentor.com. She is the author of three online courses produced by LearningHerbs, including the Taste of Herbs, Herbal Cold Care, and Apothecary.   She has a mentorship program where she mentors dedicated herbal students to help them accelerate their herbal path so they can create their own thriving clinical practice.   If you love learning about herbs, living a healthy life, and being connected to nature you'll surely enjoy this episode. Transform your life — learn about what nature offers to us!   Outline of This Great Episode [3:06] Vidal will stop weekly shows. [10:15] Holy basil or tulsi, how to grow it and use it. [14:36] Peppermint is a very stimulating plant but relaxes muscles. [17:38] Nettle is a great source of protein. [21:42] Rose to support heart health. [23:55] Lemon balm added to water is soothing to digestion and to the nervous system. [25:56] Lemon balm to reduce the impact of radiation in our bodies. [27:54] Astragalus strengthens the immune system. [32:55] Dandelion uses. [37:24] Chamomile is the ultimate soothing herb. [40:58] Cacao's health benefits makes it the greatest natural medicine of all times. [44:22] Turmeric modulates inflammation and supports liver health. [52:58] Start simple when experimenting with herbs.   Mentioned In This Episode Visit Deborah Vidal and subscribe to this podcast! Vidal thanks you for using her banner for your shopping. Leave your review of Vidal Speaks podcast Vidal Speaks Facebook Page Patreon Vidal Speaks! Vidal recommends the best distilled and hydrogen water Mountain Rose Herbs East-West School of Oriental Medicine   Connect with Today's Guest The Alchemy of Herbs: Transform Everyday Ingredients into Foods and Remedies That Heal, by Rosalee de la Foret Visit Rosalee's website.

Vidal welcomes Rosalee de la Foret to the Vidal Speaks podcast. Rosalee is sharing how to use food, spices, and herbs to help you in your healing journey. Nature's medicine is again proving that these so-called “incurable diseases” can be treated and healing can be achieved. Toxins damage our cellular function and if we actively detox, we can enjoy the health that our bodies naturally promote.   If you want to know more about Rosalee before listening to this amazing talk, here are some details about her journey. For over a decade her calling has been helping people to radically change their health using herbs and other natural remedies. Through this, she has helped hundreds of clients reclaim their health and has taught thousands of herbal students in online courses and intensive retreats. She is the Education Director for LearningHerbs, one of the most innovative herbal companies of our time, and is a professional member of the American Herbalist Guild RH (AHG).   But her story begins long before she had become a successful herbalist. She admits she's been a natural health nerd her entire life. As a teenager, she would prowl the natural health foods store and look up remedies in the Natural Prescription for Health book by Phyllis Balch.   But while she had long been interested in natural remedies she didn't really take them seriously until they saved her life. When she was 23 she suddenly became very sick. She spent an entire month in bed, tormented with musculoskeletal pain, an itchy body rash that came and went, and a fever that spiked at night and went away during the day. She was finally hospitalized after becoming severely dehydrated and after two weeks was diagnosed with a rare autoimmune disease called Still's. The doctors didn't have good news. They gave her steroids and said it would be a slow and painful decline to an early death.   For about three days she just cried and cried and wondered, “why me?” But then, she did what she had always done and started researching alternative solutions to autoimmunity diseases to see what she could find.   Over time she began to see that there were lots of small signs leading up to her autoimmunity disease and her “healthy” soy vegetarian diet wasn't serving her. She realized she needed a total health makeover to purge a lot of health fads from her life. She also assembled a team of people to help her, from acupuncturists to herbalists to naturopaths to massage therapists.   After six months of intensive work, she became symptom-free from this “terminal” and “incurable” disease and she has continued to live symptom-free for over a decade.   Her experience with autoimmunity further inspired her to delve into the natural health world. She knew she wanted to help people like her: people who wanted to find the root cause of their health problems so they could live a healthy and vibrant life.   She thought about being a naturopath but she didn't want to focus on supplements or any type of one-size-fits-all medicine (similar to western medicine). She thought about becoming an acupuncturist but she knew that in China the major form of medicine was the plants. So, she decided to study the art of herbalism.   She has over 10 years of training as an herbalist, from ethnobotany and wildcrafting to clinical herbalism. She's graduated from the four-year clinical program at the East West School of Herbology and has been mentored by some of the most outstanding herbalists of our time, including Michael Tierra, Paul Bergner, and Karta Purkh Singh Khalsa.   Besides her interest in herbalism, she also spent four years of intensive training as a Structural Medicine Specialist with the Institute of Structural Medicine. Through that process, she became a licensed massage therapist and practiced for five years before turning her full attention to herbs.   She has helped people use herbs to get better health since 2006. She now works with people all over the world through long-distance consultations via the telephone and Skype.   She also is very dedicated to herbal education. She is the Education Director for LearningHerbs.com, which is one of the most innovative herbal companies that exists today. She regularly provides how-to articles, herbal recipes, videos and herbal presentations for their website HerbMentor.com. She is the author of three online courses produced by LearningHerbs, including the Taste of Herbs, Herbal Cold Care, and Apothecary.   She has a mentorship program where she mentors dedicated herbal students to help them accelerate their herbal path so they can create their own thriving clinical practice.   If you love learning about herbs, living a healthy life, and being connected to nature you'll surely enjoy this episode. Transform your life — learn about what nature offers to us!   Outline of This Great Episode [10:50] Rosalee's personal story [21:35] Rosalee's book about how to use food as medicine. [25:14] Controlling inflammation with rosemary. [26:11] Chinese herbalism. [27:20] What is the medicine in herbs? [29:02] Include a little of lots of herbs and spices. [30:11] How much herbs do you need to take to see results? [34:49] Make sure your herbs smell strong when you crush them. [36:44] How long can you store your herbs? [39:13] Sources of organic herbs. [40:56] It is so easy to grow herbs! [42:56] How to tell which herbs are best for you. [44:34] Hot and cold, damp and dry. [48:12] Combining herbs for best results. [49:50] Difference between an herb and a spice. [51:04] Black pepper increases the richness of food. [53:22] Cinnamon for insulin resistance. [56:41] Ginger to treat coldness in the body.   Mentioned In This Episode Visit Deborah Vidal and subscribe to this podcast! Vidal thanks you for using her banner for your shopping. Leave your review of Vidal Speaks podcast Vidal Speaks Facebook Page Vidal recommends the best distilled and hydrogen water Mountain Rose Herbs   Connect with Today's Guest The Alchemy of Herbs: Transform Everyday Ingredients into Foods and Remedies That Heal, by Rosalee de la Foret

Kratom is making headlines as both a natural and safe pain reliever AND as a targeted and dangerous herb. After centuries of use in Asia, kratom is just one more herb to join the ranks of analgesic herbs to draw the government's scrutiny. Those that use this plant as an alternative to addictive prescription pain killers are growing increasingly worried that it will become banned by the FDA and DEA leaving patients helpless in the wake of the opioid epidemic. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Plants may be the medicine of the people but not all plants are equal in the eyes of the law. Over the past few months, kratom has been targeted by the United States DEA (Drug Enforcement Administration) and FDA (Food and Drug Administration) as a potentially dangerous plant and it's not the first. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

If you’ve been hearing the word “adaptogen” buzzing around your Instagram feed, and have no clue what it is--you’ve come to the right place. And, even if you’ve been adding Ashwagandha to your tea for decades, don’t worry. Laura Ash, a strong advocate for radical self-care and a clinically-trained herbalist has your back. Laura Ash, today’s podcast guest, is the owner of one of the oldest herbal apothecaries in San Francisco, and a force to be reckoned with in the wellness world. She has traveled the world learning from the best healers--from western herbalism in Northern California, to Ayurvedic Medicine in New Mexico to Essential Oils in France. Laura is also deeply passionate about preserving traditional medicine in indigenous cultures, so she created a nonprofit to support it called The Herbal Anthropology Project. On this podcast episode, Laura not only chats about her wealth of knowledge in the herbalism and traditional medicine space, but she also shares her own self-journey of discovering the Power of Flowers while curing her chronic bronchitis at the age of 18. She also shares her perspective on the beauty of growing older, preparing our bodies for children (hint: it needs to start earlier than you think), and being a badass mom-of-two-and-entrepreneur. Tune in--you won’t want to miss this! For more info, visit: www.onadulting.com/podcast To connect with Katina about questions, comments, speaker ideas, or sponsorship inquiries please e-mail: onadulting@gmail.com. To join the On Adulting Tribe + email newsletter, please visit: http://eepurl.com/dhaq_T Resources: Check out Scarlet Sage, a San Francisco-based apothecary here: https://scarletsage.com/ The book Laura recommends during the podcast is, The Way of Herbs by Michael Tierra

From a constitutional perspective, it appears that most herbal medicines have a drying effect upon the tissues. Whether it's from increasing urination, exocrine gland secretions, sweating.... there are many ways that herbs lead to fluids leaving the body and this ultimately has a net drying effect. Thus, knowing your moistening materia medica is critical for success as an herbalist and a formulator, especially in our modern world where there is a great prevalence of constitutional dryness. Cross comparing different traditional models of dryness, we see that in Chinese Medicine it is referred to as Yin Deficiency. In Ayurveda dryness is governed by the Vata Dosha, which also tends to be cold and tense. From the perspective of our western herbal energetic model, this would be classified as the Dry/Atrophy tissue state, characterized by weakness, emaciation, withering tissues that are malnourished and loosing function. I remember one time Michael Tierra commented in a lecture that Yin Deficiency is likely one of the most overlooked patterns by western herbalists and will usually be an obstacle to cure. If the herbs you are giving aren't working and should be working then it's likely you have an underlying Yin Deficiency to correct.  In regards to herbal formulation, knowing your moistening remedies is critical because most herbal remedies are drying in nature. There are often times you want to give someone a certain herb, but the moisture quality of the herb may not match that of the person. It doesn't mean you can't give that herb to them, you simply need to formulate it in a way that will bring it into greater balance for that person.  This is a formulation principle we see in the Unani-Tibb system (Arabic medicine) called corrigents. This is oftentimes seen as just adding certain herbs to formulas to make them taste better, but in actuality the principle of corrigents is adding remedies to an herbal formula to correct its underlying energetics or constitutional actions. In this episode, I share some core concepts of dryness in the body, how and why to use moistening remedies and a few of my favorite examples.  ———————————— CONNECT WITH SAJAH AND WHITNEY ———————————— To get free in depth mini-courses and videos, visit our blog at: http://www.evolutionaryherbalism.com Get daily inspiration and plant wisdom on our Facebook and Instagram channels: http://www.facebook.com/EvolutionaryHerbalism https://www.instagram.com/evolutionary_herbalism/ Be sure to subscribe to our YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyP63opAmcpIAQg1M9ShNSQ ———————————— ABOUT SAJAH ———————————— Sajah Popham, founder of Organic Unity and The School of Evolutionary Herbalism, is committed to creating a new paradigm of plant medicine anchored in herbal, medical, and spiritual traditions from around the world. His work integrates the science and spirit of herbal medicine, creating a system that is equally holistic, healing and transformational. His unique synthesis bridges herbalism not only east and west, but north & south, above & below, into a universal philosophy that encompasses indigenous wisdom, Ayurveda, western Alchemy and Spagyrics, Astrology, clinical herbalism, and modern pharmacology.  Sajah's vitalist approach utilizes plants not only for physical healing and rejuvenation, but for the evolution of consciousness. He never allopathicallyl focuses on just what a plant is “good for” but rather who the plants are as sentient beings. Sajah’s teachings embody a heartfelt respect, honor and reverence for the vast intelligence of plants in a way that empowers us to look deeper into the nature of our medicines and ourselves. He lives in southern Oregon with his wife where he teaches at his school, makes spagyric medicines, and practices his healing art. For more information about his products and programs, visit www.organic-unity.com & www.evolutionaryherbalism.com  ———————————— ABOUT THE PLANT PATH ———————————— The Plant Path provides unique perspectives for the modern practitioner of herbalism that doesn’t just want to “fix what’s broken” in the body, but seeks to serve others with deeper levels of healing and transformation with herbal medicines. A unique synergy of clinical herbalism, alchemy, medical astrology, and herbal traditions from around the world, The Plant Path focuses on giving you a truly “wholistic” perspective on herbal medicine so you never fall into the trap of allopathic herbalism.

Tahnee and I are back at it again discussing our experience in becoming new parents. After the huge success of our last 2 part series, we have been inundated with requests for a follow-up, and so here we are with an 8 &1/2 month old bubba sharing all we've learn and felt since last time. There are many gems in this chat around physical health, however, the bulk of the conversation lies in the juicy psychology of making the mental and emotional shift to being parents. This has been by far the greatest aspect of our journey as new parents and we're just grateful to have an opportunity to reflect upon it.   In this chat you will learn:  The new world of post-partum parenting and nourishing jing Breast massage and post-partum ovarian breathing Placenta encapsulations practices and varying methods The long term significance of exposing new babies to natural elements The wild brain of the new Mother verse the executive brain Acceptance and reflecting on your new role as a parent Challenging the cultural dynamic of the fathers and mothers roles in parenting Nurturing and cultivating Yin around your babies infancy Post-partum work/life balance Sewing the seeds early to mold a long term relationship with your children as babies Crying as a sign of expression and communication rather than danger Finding fusion in rhythm between you and baby  Tahnee McCrossin is a student of the body, weaving the ancient healing traditions of Yoga and Taoism with somatic exploration and modern scientific understanding into an integrated system that supports longevity and self-healing of the body-mind-spirit. Through her work as a yoga and meditation teacher, chi ne tsang practitioner and health researcher, she is striving to reunite the modern body-mind with the spiritual and psychological wisdom of the ancients. She is grateful to be a current student of Mantak Chia, Paul Grilley and Michael Tierra.   Websites: Mama's medicine (placenta encapsulation) http://mamasmedicine.com.au/ Books: Mutant Message Down Under – Marlo Morgan Respectful Parenting – Janet Lansbury Enjoy!  Links and show notes can be found at http://masonjtaylor.com/blog/ This podcast is brought to you by SuperFeast, the online store bringing you the greatest immune enhancing, hormone balancing and performance lifting tonic herbs.

Lesley Tierra, L.AC., AHG is a California State and nationally certified acupuncturist and herbalist. In her practice, she combines acupuncture, herb and food therapies along with lifestyle and inner growth counseling. She is a founding professional member of the American Herbalists Guild. Lesley is the author of Healing with the Herbs of Life and Healing with Chinese Herbs. She collaborated with Michael Tierra to produce the East West Herb Course and is its dean. She also co-authored Chinese-Planetary Herbal Diagnosis with Michael and Chinese Herbal Medicine. She has also co-authored with Michael a two volume text on Chinese Herbal Medicine, published by Lotus Press. In addition she has written a special herbal for young children called A Kid’s Herb Book (for children of all ages). Lesley and Michael Tierra run the East West School of Herbbology. You can visit them at http://PlanetHerbs.com

Karta Purkh (K.P.) Singh Khalsa, L.M.T., N.C.T.M.B., D.N.-C., R.H., C.C., is one of the foremost herbal experts in the field today. He is one of a very few practitioners with over thirty five years of experience in the natural healing field. He is a senior editor for The Harvard University Natural Standard and a professor at Massachusetts College of Pharmacy and Health Sciences and Bastyr University’s College of Naturopathic Medicine. K.P. Khalsa is on the Board of Directors of the American Herbalists Guild. He has spoken in hundreds of venues, including many professional herb conferences. With a long career as a consultant in the natural foods sector, he is employed as Senior Research Scientist for the Yogi Tea company, and is the principal formulator for Yogi Tea products. Khalsa is the author of over 1,500 published health articles. He has authored or contributed to more than 30 books. His most recent book is The Way of Ayurvedic Herbs, which completes the “Way of” trilogy, started by Michael Tierra with the best selling American herb book of all time, The Way of Herbs. In this episode of HerbMentor Radio, K.P. answers many member submitted questions on herbs and health. This is a fantastic interview that everyone interested in natural health should hear. Visit K.P. at http://kpkhalsa.com

Karta Purkh Singh Khalsa, Yogaraj (Ayurveda), DN-C, RH, LMT, NCTMB, CC, NAMAPM, has over 40 years of experience in holistic medicine, and is one of the foremost natural healing experts in North America. He is the president of the American Herbalists Guild, and is a respected teacher, writer and lecturer. As the author of over 3,000 published health articles, K.P. has written or edited 30 books and on a variety of health topics including major works on massage, Ayurveda, Chinese medicine and physiology. His latest book, The Way of Ayurvedic Herbs, co-authored with Michael Tierra, brings to life Ayurveda in an understandable and practical way. K.P. is also a frequent contributor to mainstream and professional publications in the natural healing field, including The Herb Quarterly. K.P. is a professor at Massachusetts College of Pharmacy, and a founding faculty in the Ayurvedic Sciences program at Bastyr University. For 30 years Khalsa served as Senior Research Scientist and Chief Medical Formulator for Yogi Tea. In this interview, K.P. answers HerbMentor member questions, including advice for beginners, K.P.’s personal daily herbal routine, supplements, and how to address chronic health conditions with herbs. This episode is jam packed with incredible information. Please do not miss it. Visit K.P. Khalsa at his website: http://www.kpkhalsa.com/