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Tuesday, June 1st marks Artfully Told's one year anniversary, so Lindsey & Kevin Dinneen share about lessons learned and behind-the-scenes stories from one year of podcasting, the most recent dance-for-film production that they produced, and the exciting news for VidaDance Company's first live performance since 2019! (Fun fact: the cover image of this episode is VidaDance's KC Fringe promo image for our filmed production, "When.")   Get the latest news from VidaDance Company: www.vidadancecompany.com Support Artfully Told: www.paypal.me/elevateart Artfully Told links: www.facebook.com/artfullytold | www.artfullytold.podbean.com | elevateartskc@gmail.com Get a free audiobook through Audible!  http://www.audibletrial.com/ArtfullyTold Schedule your own interview as a featured guest with Artfully Told! https://calendly.com/artfullytold/podcast-interview   Episode 55 – Lindsey & Kevin Dinneen Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome to Artfully Told, where we share true stories about meaningful encounters with art. [00:00:06] Krista: I think artists help people have different perspectives on every aspect of life. [00:00:12]Roman:  All I can do is put my part in to the world. [00:00:15] Elizabeth: It doesn't have to be perfect the first time. It doesn't have to be perfect ever really. I mean, as long as you, and you're enjoying doing it and you're trying your best, that can be good enough. [00:00:23] Elna: Art is something that you can experience with your senses and that you just experiences as so beautiful.  [00:00:31] Lindsey Dinneen: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Artfully Told. I'm your host Lindsey, and I am very excited about today because this is a pretty special episode. Tomorrow, June 1st, marks Artfully Told's one year anniversary. And so today I invited my husband, Kevin, to come back to the show. Thank you for being here today, Kevin. [00:00:55] Kevin Dinneen: Thank you for having me. [00:00:56] Lindsey Dinneen: Of course. And I thought we would just talk about, you know, one year of Artfully Told and sort of maybe what we've been up to art wise over the last year, or what's coming up just to celebrate all things art. Yeah. So Yeah. So, gosh, do you have any questions for me right off the bat? Because I feel like this is... [00:01:17] Kevin Dinneen: yeah, I do. So, so one year in how many, how many episodes is that? How many interviews? [00:01:23] Lindsey Dinneen: So I have, at this point, this will be my 55th episode published because I did start with a few at the launch. [00:01:32] Kevin Dinneen: Okay. So in those 55 episodes, what is something that you've learned? Sort of, is there a general sense of something that you've learned or something that you've kind of appreciated in general that you didn't expect, or? [00:01:48] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, that's a really good question. You know, I think a lot of interesting things have emerged from the process. Of course, you know, this is my first time hosting a podcast and being part of it from start to finish. So I've, I've learned a lot about the process of actually producing a podcast and what all goes into that... [00:02:07] Kevin Dinneen: The technical aspects. [00:02:09] Lindsey Dinneen: Exactly. [00:02:10]Kevin Dinneen: So yeah, so you learned all the technical aspects of it. [00:02:13] Lindsey Dinneen: Right. And then the, I think one of the most interesting prevailing themes-- that was a little surprising to me only because I hadn't thought about it this way was-- you know, I asked my guests the same three questions every time. And one of them is, "what do you think is the most important role of an artist?" And I've gotten a lot of amazing answers, but one of the most commonly expressed answers is a form of, "to be true to yourself" or "to be honest," or, you know, those kinds of answers. And what's interesting to me about that is, you know, as a, as an artist, who's always taken on a different persona, like as a character or, you know, I'm portraying a certain emotion or something like that, it's not necessarily-- it's not like I'm being dishonest in the portrayal-- but my version of art... [00:03:07] Like to me, it was interesting because for somebody who is just, is maybe a visual artist expressing themselves through painting or something like that, then to be true to themselves or honest is like them taking their truth and putting it onto like a canvas or something like that. Well, it was interesting about being an artist who takes on somebody else's persona, is that I want to do that character justice for that. At the same time, it's not me being myself honest, if that makes sense? And so that was always kind of an interesting answer that I've really enjoyed kind of delving into in a different way, because my answer to that question is different, but it's only because of the way that my art has come out so far, if that makes any sense. [00:03:55]Kevin Dinneen: Could you say that, that you're being true to your character? [00:03:58]Lindsey Dinneen:  Yeah. [00:03:59] Kevin Dinneen: For portrayal? [00:04:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Oh, sure. I mean, I would always want to do that, but I think, I think I just hadn't, I hadn't labeled it as the most important thing for an artist because of the kind of work that I do. So I just really liked that perspective and thinking about how important that is to so many artists. [00:04:20] Kevin Dinneen: So is there anything, can you think of a particular moment or two that surprised you? [00:04:27]Lindsey Dinneen:  I have definitely had some guests, you know, with varied backgrounds where... well, I think, you know what, okay. Here's one thing that has been really important for me to learn and understand would be, especially people who've had different experiences with art based on, you know, their race or gender or whatever else . And, and it's so specific because the way that artists are treated, just, I guess like every human being-- unfortunately or fortunately-- has been treated, is different in the arts world. And so I think what has been interesting to me is learning the, the stories about people overcoming challenges that were kind of put in their way because of these different aspects of who they are, where it should, I think, just be about, you know, the right person for the right role or, you know, you're, you're a talented artist, regardless of what you look like or who you are. Everyone's experience is so different based on kind of who they are, what they look like, and stuff like that. So that's been really important for me, I think, to, to listen to these stories and to share them, because it provides a different perspective than maybe I would have had myself, and that's what I love about the podcast too. [00:05:48] Kevin Dinneen: You get to maybe not experience what they experienced, but you get an idea of that experience. [00:05:55] Lindsey Dinneen: Right. [00:05:55] Kevin Dinneen: It broadens your own kind of vision of art. [00:05:58] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. It broadens the vision. And I don't force this conversation but it does open up conversations that might otherwise be difficult to have, or wouldn't come up necessarily, 'cause they're not always fun to talk about per se, but when you create a space where you can share about the good, the bad and the ugly, I think that that's been one of the most wonderful things is having people share honestly about their experiences. [00:06:26]Kevin Dinneen: Looking forward, for the next year, the next 55 podcasts, is there-- or episodes I should say. [00:06:33] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Woo. [00:06:35] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah. I have big dreams for you. [00:06:40] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh boy. I won't be sleeping ever. [00:06:41]Kevin Dinneen: So in the next 55 episodes, is there something that you would like to be intentional about and, and kind of focus on or? I know this year has just kind of been... [00:06:54] Lindsey Dinneen: Exploration? [00:06:55] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah. You know, you've been kind of learning and experiencing. And, and are there any changes you'd like to make or in your, in your approach or anything like that? [00:07:05] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. I really like the conversations that have emerged naturally through these episodes. And I would like to keep it that sort of organic, like it's just the two of us having a conversation about art. So it doesn't feel as... [00:07:20] Kevin Dinneen: That's the only agenda. [00:07:21] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. [00:07:22] Kevin Dinneen: Talk about art. [00:07:23] Lindsey Dinneen: Talk about art and, and there's, that can go in so many different directions, but as long as we kind of keep the central theme of art and, and, and the stories that connect us. I think that that's really important to me. I particularly love hearing about certain moments that really stand out to people. So I think emphasizing that, yes, it's important to share about our creative processes and things like that. And I think that's very interesting, especially if like, I'm not a writer. So listening to a writer talk about their process is really cool to me, but I also really love the moments when people say, "You know, I went to this art gallery and I saw this one painting, and this one painting for whatever reason, spoke to me that day. And it changed my perspective on my relationship with my dad." Or something like that, where, you know, those moments are so cool and they happen. [00:08:15] And I think we just need to talk about them more. So I think I'm looking forward to hearing more and more stories about the power of, of art. And then I think the other thing that I'm gonna mix up and play with a little bit is, now you've all had the opportunity to hear from a lot of different people about their perspectives on my final three questions. I'm pretty sure I'm going to be mixing those up. I'm kind of excited about that. I don't have them in stone yet. [00:08:43] Kevin Dinneen: That was my next, my next question. Do we get a preview of what any of those questions are? [00:08:49] Lindsey Dinneen: I'll give you one, 'cause it's a good one to probably ponder before coming on the show, although maybe, you know, again-- sometimes the spur of the moment answers are, are particularly delightful too. But I think one of the questions I want to ask is something along the lines of what you asked me at one of our episodes of,  you know, "Say this is your last day to live and you only get to experience one thing of art-- one show, one piece, one book, whatever-- one last time, what would that be and why?" And I just think that's such an interesting question to ask, because I think it'll, it'll tell us a lot about the individuals and sort of what means the most, you know, thinking about those last few moments. I think that will be really cool. [00:09:33] Kevin Dinneen: Are you going to keep any of the others or completely switch it up? [00:09:36] Lindsey Dinneen: I don't know. I don't know. I think probably that new question will become the new third question. I do like, I like all the questions. This is the problem, but I also think it's maybe time to do some new ones, so I don't know. TBD. [00:09:53] Kevin Dinneen: All right. So outside of the, the podcast, anything interesting in this past year related to art that stands out for you? [00:10:05] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. I think this has been a really wonky season for a lot of artists, but so there wasn't as much, there wasn't as much creative art stuff that I got to do last year. But as we're starting to kind of see things open back up, I'm really excited. Actually, yesterday we just finished wrapping up filming for  my professional company's very first dance for film production. We're fondly referring to it as your term, which is a dancical. In fact, you want to talk about why we're calling it a dancicle. [00:10:40] Kevin Dinneen: So this year was so unique. And you know, we had the opportunity for your, your company to perform, but not live. We could perform on a stage and film it. [00:10:55] Lindsey Dinneen: Right. [00:10:56]Kevin Dinneen: But you know, that, that really poses an interesting challenge because it's not very immersive. [00:11:03] Lindsey Dinneen: Right. [00:11:03]Kevin Dinneen: You're just sitting there watching a video of something that happened live. And you know, I think that's one thing that "Hamilton" did well. It was, it was well-produced when they did it on stage very much and showed it in video. [00:11:19] Lindsey Dinneen: Yep. [00:11:20]Kevin Dinneen: But I think it's really hard to do well, and we have a little bit smaller of a budget. [00:11:31] Lindsey Dinneen: A hundred or two bucks maybe. Right. [00:11:34]Kevin Dinneen: So yeah, so we had to be creative and, and had the idea to film a dance, but movie style, on locations. And so basically it's like a musical because it is a video, a movie, but there's no dialogue, it's all, it's dance. But it is, you know, in, on set and in locations and things like that with a soundtrack. So, so not all of it is dancing. So that's why it's a dancical. Just like in a musical, it's not all singing. So that's where, that's where the term dancical came from. [00:12:10] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Yes, exactly. I love it. Yeah. I'm super excited for so many reasons, but I think that that particular adventure is going to be really cool to see it come together. I mean, it was such an interesting process because, you know, I've never-- obviously we've had things filmed before, but it, it's kind of like what Kevin was saying in the sense of like, we do this stage production. There's this one, maybe two camera angles, but it's, it's mostly just to have like a memory of it. And so to then go and work with a filmmaker-- and we have the great privilege of working with Alden Miller, who was actually a previous guest on Artfully Told. So definitely go check out his episode. He has a lot of great insight and wisdom to share and, but, yeah. So we've been working with him and, you know, he's fantastic. He's an award winning documentary filmmaker. So he knows exactly what he's doing. And he was so gracious to work with a company that is super enthusiastic, but doesn't know the ropes behind creating a film, right? So, you know, from the get go, it was a collaborative process. Kevin was the person who came up with the storyline. I was frankly, not feeling very inspired. I, I had these ideas. I just didn't feel like any of them would work. And then one day, Kevin had this-- well, I'll let you tell this part of the story if you're okay with it. [00:13:36]Kevin Dinneen: Yeah, so I, I was, I dunno what you would say, fulfilling a challenge. The challenge was to memorize something and I had a week to memorize something, some sort of text, and I chose Rudyard Kipling's poem, "If," and it was a poem that he wrote for his son. And I was pretty inspired by it because it, it talks about being a man, but you know, really it's just about being a legitimate, good person and basically how to act. And I was inspired by it and felt like we could come up with a story that embodies, and, you know, makes it into a visual source to tell this story. So that was, that was my inspiration. So then you read it and you're like," Yeah. That's okay." And... [00:14:34] Lindsey Dinneen: No, I loved the poem. I just also couldn't picture, right.... [00:14:38] Kevin Dinneen: I mean, like that's an okay inspiration for a thing, but it didn't quite... [00:14:42] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Yeah. Where could this lead to in a dance production kind of thing. [00:14:45] Kevin Dinneen: Right, right. Yeah. Yeah. So then we kind of hashed it out, what it might look like, some storyline ideas. And then, yeah, it was at one point, probably one of my prouder moments when you're like, "Okay, this could probably work." [00:14:59] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Well, what's cool about the poem and maybe we can post a copy or at least a link to, to view it. We'll do that in our show notes, but it's, it's a fantastic poem. It's really inspiring. And, it's kind of just sort of naturally broken into four sections. And so Kevin took the four sections and put a storyline. So there's sort of four storylines that follow, you know, in our case, women, mostly. But, but follow women through their individual storylines, but what's kind of cool about the way that it's turned out, is they're interwoven in interesting ways. So you, you sort of see the characters woven into the different scenes, and I think that's going to be a really cool aspect of it. [00:15:40] Like, you know, you'll see, for example, the lead characters from the first scene, you'll see them visiting the restaurant in the second scene, you know, and, and so sort of it kind of weaves through. So I think it's actually going to turn out really cool. But yeah, and so once, once Kevin had sort of narrowed it down, we had sort of hashed it out a little bit, we then met with Alden and really kind of had like a brainstorming, "here's what we're thinking." But he's essentially a professional storyteller, so like, this is his area. So like, "What do you see in and how can we make this all work together?" And so once that process got done, then it was a matter of, well, I think you had already picked out music by that time too. [00:16:20]Kevin Dinneen: Yeah, we had had all the music ready. And what's interesting about that is when we're coming up with our storyline and he's saying, "Okay, where, where is this going to be?" Oh, I don't know. You know, we're just used to always having a stage. That's where it's going to be. So that was another interesting element and, and sort of challenge is finding locations to shoot and getting permission and jumping through all the hoops and, there's all sorts of things that we had to do. All sorts of things that we're not used to doing that it was a learning process. [00:16:56] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. Well, and, and honestly, I'll just-- to be totally frank, you know, normally when we're doing this process, I'm very used to the process of coordinating people with rehearsal time, and we usually have one space that we're rehearsing in. So it's, it's a very easy process in the sense of, yeah, we're trying to figure out overlapping schedules of availability, but it's that compared to time slots and what we need? It's not that bad, and I've done it a lot, so I'm very comfortable with it. But this was this whole other layer of not only are we coordinating people's availability, but we're also coordinating Alden's availability with that, and on top of that venue availability, and on top of that weather conditions. So frankly it was one of the most stressful periods of my life, probably since awhile, because there was just so much to coordinate and I just wasn't, I also wasn't aware of the length of time it takes to coordinate things like that. 'Cause you know, I'm kind of used to-- all right, this studio is available then. Perfect. So this is how we'll fit it in, versus, you know, like filming at a college. There's this entire process that you have to go through of getting approved and where exactly are you going to film and then filling out all the paperwork and stuff like that. And so the lead time is so much longer. [00:18:16] Kevin Dinneen: And then finding a time where students and teachers aren't going to be interrupted with the filming and. [00:18:23] Lindsey Dinneen: Right. [00:18:23] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah. All sorts of things. [00:18:24] Lindsey Dinneen: All sorts of things. So yeah, it was just a totally different process. But then, so there was that learning curve, but then there was a learning curve of actually like being in the process of the actual filming taking place and not realizing certain things, which has been really cool, actually. Like, you know, when you're filming a movie, for instance, you're going to have the characters change costumes, change clothes between different days or different scenes. That makes complete sense to me. But as a dancer who usually sticks with, you know, dance kind of choreography, usually if you're establishing a character, you keep their costume the same throughout, 'cause that way it's easy to identify as an audience like, "Oh, you know, Jane always wears her blue gingham dress. "So you know that's Jane, if that makes sense, partly because we don't have the advantage of getting to see people's faces all that close. And so it is important to kind of establish, but now it was like, "Oh right, we should change hairstyles. We should change maybe even a little bit different makeup. We need to change the clothes from day to day." So it looks like not just one long one day, you know, but different days. And this is a progressive storyline. That was funny, but you know, not something I would have thought of. [00:19:45] Kevin Dinneen: And the thing that stood out for me that was probably the most different that I noticed was for dance, you rehearse, rehearse, rehearse, rehearse, rehearse, rehearse, rehearse, and then boom, you have one shot and you get it perfect. And then in this, rehearsing is almost worthless because if you go to a space that is not the film set and rehearse, it's not going to be the same. And so then when you get on to set, you have, you have different things that get in the way or it's carpet and you didn't rehearse on carpet. So this turn is not gonna work. So you just get there and you do a bunch of takes. [00:20:30] Lindsey Dinneen: You're absolutely right. And certain things too, you know, there were, there were certain spaces that we didn't even have access to before the day of the filming. Well, I guess all of them where we had kind of, we had an idea of the space and what, what we could use of it, but it's still different, you know? 'Cause you take away the certain image and you kind of say, "Okay, this is, I think, choreography that's gonna fit in right here." But then you get there and you realize that either things have moved or they actually don't want you to touch this one thing that you thought it would be okay if, you know, you use the counter as like a barre or, you know, stuff like that, where it-- that's all fine, well, and good. It's just, it was really interesting 'cause it was like, okay, set the choreography. Try to be as prepared as you can be. And then the day of is like completely flexible and things changed like that, you know? And it was, I'm so grateful. I work with such amazing dancers who are totally fine with that. There were no complaints, there were no issues whatsoever. They were like, "Sure. Okay. Yeah." And then, you know, you're doing your fourth, fifth take of the exact same moment. And we're just not used to that, but you know, everyone was like, "This is fun," you know? [00:21:42] Kevin Dinneen: And the feedback from the dancers, they're like, "Oh, would it work if I did this, or maybe I could do this?" just like on film day. [00:21:50] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. [00:21:51] Kevin Dinneen: That doesn't happen in productions. [00:21:53] Lindsey Dinneen: Right. "Let's change this!". [00:21:55] Kevin Dinneen: You're not rehearsing for month, and then like, "You know, I was thinking!" [00:21:59] Lindsey Dinneen: Let's do it this way instead. [00:22:00] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah. [00:22:01] Lindsey Dinneen: Right. [00:22:02] Kevin Dinneen: And so that was fun. [00:22:03] Lindsey Dinneen: It was fun. [00:22:03] Kevin Dinneen: It was fun. And, and worked really well. [00:22:08] Lindsey Dinneen: I think so too.  And I think, you know, and it seems so obvious when I think about it in context, but without having someone to say, "You know, you're going to have to be loose with your musical interpretation of some of these movements so that it can be adopted for film." It just, it wasn't something that I had really thought about. So I think the learning curve has been a lot of fun too. There would be moments when, you know, Alden would say, "Okay, so from my perspective as a filmmaker, I'm seeing this. Now I know this is different than a normal dance production."  And so, you know, funny things like that, where all of a sudden be like, "Oh, okay, actually, can you start from the other side and do your thing the reverse way?" And, and, you know, just things I just didn't think about. It was great. [00:22:52] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah. And now, it's kind of out of your hands... [00:22:55] Lindsey Dinneen: It is! [00:22:55] Kevin Dinneen: It's up to Alden and his superpower... [00:22:59] Lindsey Dinneen: Magical genius... [00:23:00] Kevin Dinneen: Of editing. [00:23:03] Lindsey Dinneen: So we'll see, but we're really excited. It's going to premiere at the Kansas City Fringe Festival in July. We will definitely be talking about that closer to the time, but keep your eyes open on our company website, which is www.vidadancecompany.com and also www.kcfringe.org, because that's where you'll be able to take advantage of seeing us dance and seeing this brand new production. [00:23:33] Kevin Dinneen: And I think, I don't know of another movie like this. I think this might be pretty close to the first of its kind. There's probably very few people that have tried this. [00:23:50] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, 'cause it's, it's not like you see a lot of really good like dance movies or dance inspired movies where it's about a group of dancers, but there's always dialogue. [00:24:01]Kevin Dinneen: And it's about dance. It's not using dance as the medium. [00:24:06] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh, of the way... [00:24:07] Kevin Dinneen: To tell the story. [00:24:08] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah. [00:24:10] Kevin Dinneen: 'Cause this isn't about dance. [00:24:12] Lindsey Dinneen: Right. It's using... [00:24:13] Kevin Dinneen: It is dance. [00:24:14] Lindsey Dinneen: It is dance. Yeah. Yeah. There you go. I like it. And I think that's why dancical is so appropriate, because it's a good way of describing it. So yeah. So our production is called "When," so, you know the idea behind that was, Kipling's poem, "If," and then we sort of interpreted that to be, when you are these things, then this is what/ who you can become or who you can be and how you can navigate life. So it's really exciting. [00:24:40] Kevin Dinneen: Yeah. [00:24:42]Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. So that was the latest project that we were working on. [00:24:48]Kevin Dinneen: So you got some good news yesterday, I think it was, and it's art related. [00:24:55] Lindsey Dinneen: It is art-related. So we booked the theater at Union Station in Kansas City for a reprise of our unique Nutcracker called "Cracked! A Reimagined Kansas City Nutcracker." And on top of that, we got word from the aerial dance company, Kansas City Aerial Arts, that we have partnered with in the past. And they are going to be joining us for this production again, which is so exciting. I'm so thrilled because they're wonderful people, just so great to work with and bring such a cool, unique element. So that's going to be the first weekend of December and I am so excited. Live performances are going to be back! [00:25:44] Kevin Dinneen: All right. Yeah. Cool. Well,. I do want to say congratulations on the one year anniversary you made it a year. [00:25:55] Lindsey Dinneen: I did! Successfully. We're still going! [00:25:59] Kevin Dinneen: And, and learned everything from scratch. Taught yourself. You've got your setup. It's a one-woman show. You've, you've rocked it, and people love it. So, good job. Congratulations. [00:26:10] Lindsey Dinneen: Thank you. Awesome. Thanks. Well, so I'm just curious since I'm now experimenting with different questions. Do you have any different questions that you would like to ask me? We can test them out in real time. [00:26:23] Kevin Dinneen: Okay. [00:26:23] Lindsey Dinneen: This is off the cuff, guys. [00:26:24] Kevin Dinneen: Well, this whole episode is. We didn't talk about this. [00:26:26] Lindsey Dinneen: Well, this is very true. [00:26:28] Kevin Dinneen: Gosh. Is there something that stands out to you as, as something that is art related that you would love to do that is completely outside of your wheelhouse and maybe you've so far felt a little intimidated, and that just kind of held you back? Or "I've never even, I wouldn't know where to start?" Or is there something like that that you would love to do? It's just kind of been outside your wheelhouse, but you would love to try. [00:26:59] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. I have two pipe dreams. One is to act. I really think I would enjoy acting. I, I love that element that I get to do in dance productions. So I actually think that having a speaking role in like a play or something else would be really cool, but it's so intimidating to me. I can memorize choreography. I'm sure I could figure out how to memorize lines, but it feels different. I'll put it that way. And a different kind of vulnerable.  I've kind of gotten used to the way dance is vulnerable, but that would be like a whole 'nother level. So that's, that's one pipe dream. And the other one would be singing. I love singing, but I don't have any formal training, and I would absolutely need it if I ever try to pursue anything, I don't think anyone would be super thrilled to hear me without it. But yeah,  those are the two things that are kind of hanging out there that I'd love to do at some point. [00:27:51] Kevin Dinneen: Okay. Okay. So, so in the world of art, just in general, which is the whole world, right? [00:27:58] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. The world is art. [00:28:00]Kevin Dinneen: So let's, let's see. Maybe we can narrow that down. What, what would you like to see in the world of creating art or displaying art or making it available to people, what change would you like to see  in how art works basically? In general, what's, what's a change you'd like to see? [00:28:17] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, that's a great question. I really like it. I think, I think one change I would really like to see is more of an exposure to arts from a young age, more of a chance to participate in arts from a young age.  It's difficult because arts tend to be the first thing that get cut in a school's budget, right? And, you know, study after study has proven that kiddos who are involved in arts usually do better academically and socially and things like that, build really good life skills, but it is, you know, I also can understand how from just a fiscal responsibility perspective, people would cut that, because there are other things that are important too. But when that happens, there's just such a gap in a child's education and even a way of positively expressing themselves and learning that  there's a lot of emotion that doesn't necessarily need to be expressed in words, or in behavioral changes. You could take that emotion and whatever is coming up and put it onto a canvas or into a dance or into a song. And I think that if we could do that at a younger age to nurture this art appreciation, I think that that would actually have a really positive impact on the world, because there'd be so many more people able to express themselves.  And like I said, it doesn't have to be words. It could be. Maybe that's the way you choose to, but it could be these grand masterpieces that we would never get otherwise, because a child was one time told, "Oh, that's a silly drawing" or something like that. So I think if we could encourage the arts and participation in the arts from a younger age, that would be my dream. [00:30:08] Kevin Dinneen: Okay. So it's no surprise then that you teach young students. [00:30:12] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes, I suppose so! [00:30:15] Kevin Dinneen: Yes. And, and that's been important to you, so that makes sense. [00:30:19] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. [00:30:19]Kevin Dinneen: So do I have to come up with a third one? [00:30:21] Lindsey Dinneen: No, I don't think so. I think those are two really good ones. Yeah. [00:30:25] Kevin Dinneen: Okay. Okay. I'll do a third one in another episode. [00:30:30] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay, that's fair! Alright. Well, thank you, Kevin, for being my guest host today and asking good questions and then, you know, helping me tell our stories. I appreciate it. And I, I really have to say this has been such a cool opportunity for me. I have loved getting to talk to people who are doing just amazing things with their lives. And, you know, art plays a big role in that for these people, but just who they are and how they're contributing is so cool. And the power of the arts, and just being able to have these honest conversations about the good, the bad and the ugly in the art world, I think has been outstanding for me personally. Every time I get to record an episode, it just sort of fills my soul back up and, and, you know, it reminds me that there is a lot of good in the world and people are doing really good things. And I think that's so important to remember. [00:31:29]So, so I guess I have a twofold thanks. One part of that thanks is to everyone who's been a guest so far on Artfully Told and has been willing to be honest and transparent and willing for me to ask you questions that might kind of throw you for a second, but that you're willing to dive a little deeper into some of the concepts, and I really appreciate that. And so thank you to everyone who's been a guest, but also a huge thank you to everyone who has been a supporter by listening to the episodes and whether you let me know you're listening or not, I just appreciate each and every one of you because you are what keeps us going. So thank you. Happy one year! This is really exciting. I'm super stoked. I don't ever say the word stoked, but here we are. I'm just that excited and I can't wait to share art with the world. And I hope you're feeling inspired. I hope you share this episode, or one of the many that are available and many more to come, with a friend and we will catch you next time. [00:32:38] If you have a story to share with us, we would love that so much. And I hope your day has been Artfully Told.

Combat vs Roleplay, Player time, Players with magic items vs Cr. So Yeah game balance is the name of the game. its a dirty job but Dms gotta do itSupport the show (https://www.patreon.com/posts/23854674)

So, we recorded this on the part of January 6th where we figured the Georgia elections were going to have a whole news day to itself. So… Yeah. We're hoping this episode lowers the blood pressure because we had such a great time talking about what a great time Heidi has making the designers sweat through their gray, HKNB tanks. Oh, and MORE CHARTREUSE! Join! Us! (GEORGIA, USA! YOU VOTED!) Links - This Week's Cheatsheet! https://theworkroompodcast.tumblr.com/post/639627449716604928/ep124 We're on Patreon! www.patreon.com/theworkroompodcast . Our Patreon Lovelies get access to new bonus episodes. Stay tuned for A Stitch in Time, Episode 5! Find The Workroom Podcast: The Workroom on FB: facebook.com/theworkroom The Workroom on IG: instagram.com/theworkroompodcast And, keep sending your notes/questions/gossip to —> intheworkroom@gmail.com Find Hernease: Transformer Station | One www.transformerstation.org The Elizabeth Foundation for the Arts | Permissions www.efanyc.org Twitter — twitter.com/hernease IG - instagram.com/hernease Find Nayland: No Wrong Holes: Thirty Years of Nayland Blake MIT List Visual Art Center listart.mit.edu/exhibitions/no-wrong-holes-thirty-years-nayland-blake www.naylandblake.net (For Nayland's Holiday Mixed Tapes!) Twitter - twitter.com/naylandblake (the bad website aka twitter), Instagram - instagram.com/naylandwblake (the kinda bed website aka instagram), Tumblr: tumblr.com/naylandblake Find Patricia: Twitter - twitter.com/senseandsight IG - instagram.com/senseandsight Find Samilia: texstyleshop.square.site Black Lives Matter Initiatives - For Breonna Taylor, I am posting an updated link to a website made in her honor and to organize towards justice for her and her family. You can visit www.justiceforbreonna.org to find out how you can find more information and resources for action. Donate to Wellness Aids: wellnessaids.org an organization working to establish an emergency fund for LGBTQ+ people in Flint, Michigan. Donate to the Loveland Foundation: thelovelandfoundation.org The donation helps to fund the initiatives of Therapy for Black Girls, National Queer & Trans Therapists of Color Network, Talkspace and Open Path Collective. Loveland Therapy Fund recipients will have access to a comprehensive list of mental health professionals across the country providing high quality, culturally competent services to Black women and girls.

Planning For Growth With Blair Ann Verrier Josh: G’day everyone out there in podcast land. We've got Blair here from Enrich Bookkeeping Solutions and she's going to be talking today about change, planning for growth and how to become a business warrior. So Blair, tell me what is the first step that people need to be doing when it comes to planning for growth? Blair: My advice on planning for growth is anything to do with budgeting, and making sure you understand the cash flow of your business. So what's flowing in and what's flowing out, and the timings around the flow of the ins and outs. Josh: Okay. So would that be say for instance, hypothetically if I'm running an IT company, instead of having supplies that we're working on a cash basis, we move to an account basis, we could then times the bills so that we're not always I guess in arrears, so to speak with buying a product that comes out of our account that then gets shipped off to the client. And there might be like a net 30 terms or something like that with the client that then waits 30 days to pay, and then we're sort of sitting without that money. Is that kind of to sort of help out with those sort of situations? Blair: Yeah. So the sooner you can collect money from your clients, and the longer you can pay your suppliers, it’s going to help the cash flow of your business. Josh: When is the right time to do that? Like, I know that when you first start out in business, you don't necessarily have any proof of dealing with businesses. And when you have different suppliers and things like that, they might say, give me some trade references, for instance, how do you sort of jump in there? What's the step? Are you just having a cash account and then showing them that you do have some throughput before moving across? So how do you manage that? Blair: Yeah, look, the earlier you can implement that in your business the better your cash flow is going to be earlier. Some businesses will offer accounts straight up. But it may be for a smaller amount than you need in your business. So, you know, you may have part of it cash part of it on credit until you've gained that credibility and trust with that supplier. And if you've got suppliers that maybe won't do it, shop around and see who will, and have the conversation with the supplier about, you know, how long will it be until we can look at a trade account? So is it three months, six months, 12 months? What, you know, is their general rule in their business that they're looking for? That way you know you're working towards. Josh: And that's always just as simple once you know that just chucking me a calendar and having another review in three or six months, whatever they say, I guess. Blair: Yeah, yeah. Josh: One of the things we noticed when we put in accounts, I was in my teenage years and I didn't have a credit card or any sort of cash reference. And I guess to them they would have been red flags. So it was difficult to get the first account for me. But what I did find out in shopping around exactly as you said, I found one supplier that was happy to have a cash account. And they also had very, very good guarantees at the speed that they will get things out. They said we'll give you a cash count after three months or six months, can’t remember what it is now, we did work with them and what they would do is drop ship the items so that's when they have the item is in their warehouse and they'll send it straight to your customers if it's come straight from you, which means it doesn't have to bypass through you to speed things up. We found that was great because it meant that they weren't waiting for the money to go from our bank account to their bank account, and back in the day, it's a bit quicker now for a lot of the big four banks now but back in the day it was overnight, then and then they would see it, they’ll reconciled it and they'd send it out and that's normally by the time they've done that it was two or three days before the customer saw it. The moment we got the account in place. We noticed that if we place the order eight o'clock, it was at the clients at 11 o'clock. So it improves the customer satisfactions. This supplier in particular wasn't the cheapest supplier around. But the ability to get the products out quicker was more important to us than saving $5 or $10, here and there. So we found that having that relationship and having the account was great just to increase the customer satisfaction, even if it means you're spending more. Is there any other ways that you would look to I guess, when planning for growth, you said cash flow is very important. Is there any other things that you think would be those Cornerstone, milestone type items that people should definitely be having on their to do list to look at? Blair: The budget is important because the budget, I guess sets the path for where you want to go. So you're going to plan in your budget for that growth. So then it's going to show you when do I need to start looking at hiring new employees, or do I need office space or bigger office space. So you're going to see that you know, your budgeting, you can budget you know, up to five years in advance. So if you're doing that you're going to see in advance what you need to do in your business. And you can plan for that prior to then all of a sudden, oh, I need two new employees yesterday. Josh: On the employees, that's something that I've learned the hard way. And I think a lot of people out there, a lot of business owners, for lack of a better term, start off as cowboys, cowgirls and try to work out what am I doing? How am I doing this? How do I step in that direction? And before the episode started, actually, we're talking a little bit about people that kind of think they know it old but have a lot of advice to give but no experience of where that came from. When looking at these I guess different monster moments looking back retrospectively, which is great. I have a look, and I go okay, before I got employees on I should have been planning for documentation and planning for our systems and infrastructure to make sure that the IT support that we'll be able to supply to our customers was top notch before already working at 120% capacity and then bringing on some of that, take that 20% while still having to then train them up, which was very stressful. Definitely put some pressure on the family. Blair: Yeah, that's right. And even, you know, when you are just that sole operator, getting the time to do that stuff as well, like you get so bogged down in working in the business, that often working on the business gets forgotten about. But I think, you know, if you are planning to grow your business, you need to allocate time each week to be working on the business. Josh: I completely agree. We get stuck in the trenches. And it's just what happens. Again, like as I said, most business owners, they start off as cowboys and cowgirls and it just comes through. A lot of people just have this brain fart and go, I'm going to be a business owner because I can do this better than where I'm at. Or I want to have more flexibility. Or whatever the case is, and very rarely do they think that they're going to be working more than they're working. Secret. Everyone works more than 40 hours a week if you're a business owner. But it's something you enjoy doing, which is good. Unless you've stopped enjoying doing it, then stop doing what you're doing. But the big difference I think between learning to work on the business to grow your business and working in the business is the differentiator between the business owners that own a job, and the people that own an investment. I'm definitely not slacking on Avon and some of the other bits and pieces out there when people say I own my own business. I sell Avon or Tupperware and things like that. That's fine. I wouldn't really say that that's it's earning a job more in my eyes and I think you're going to be retiring and selling off your share of your ownership of Tupperware or Isagenix or whatnot, and that's where working on the business is growing your business. That's where the investment is. It's money now versus money later. Blair: Yeah. It's about also like don't feel guilty about spending that time on the business when you know, you're not working on clients or income producing for right now, because the time you spend on the business now, like you said, produces income in the future. Josh: Yeah. And I think one of the other big things that I found when we were in our growth stage, I don't think we ever really get out of that. So it's just a cycle. And a mindset change is the mindset and the people aspects of that. So we had the first contractor, and I thought that he's great, he's fantastic. And then he started getting rather sick and had a lot of health problems. I thought, oh no, what I'm going to do. I can't run the business without him. And then I got someone else in and then he moved down to Coffs Harbour. And then oh no, what I'm going to do when they're working for you. You need to make sure that they are working and doing the best things for the business and you are pulling everything in the right direction. You want to have reliance safe, but you don't want to have them have the knowledge that you are completely reliant on them because then they've got more cards than you have. And then you kind of stuffed, you sort of push yourself into a corner. What’s been your experience with businesses that you've worked with when it comes to sole operators when they go from being a solo operator to the first full time employee, it pretty much doubles their workforce. It's pretty significant as opposed to someone who has 100 employees that gets another 10 employees, it’s only 10% more workforce. It's not anywhere near as drastic. Have you found people manage that sort of growth and having to have that management aspects of their business? Blair: Yeah, I think a lot of business owners aren't prepared for that first employee. I think sometimes it happens quicker than they expect it to happen. Like their business may experience growth quicker or all of a sudden, they just wake up and they go, you know, I can't work keep working 80 hours a week and not having a day off. And so they look at hiring and that you know, they're just talking out off on sea. And then they're bogged down with hundreds of resumes and trying to decipher through who is the best fit for their business and they don't really have a good HR or hiring plan, you know, and I think sometimes without that plan, and if they do get a good employee, they just get lucky, probably more often than not, they, you know, get someone who's not necessarily the right fit and they're starting again, or that person like you’ve experienced and then, you know, again, you're starting again looking for someone else. Josh: I don't think it's any secret for anyone listening to the podcast for a while that I love automation, I hate repetition. And the thought of hiring someone, and although I sound extroverts is a learned skill. Anyone can learn to do this. I definitely love my alone time. But the thought of hiring someone scared the hell out of me. I'm sort of putting food on their table and their family's table and it's became too much thinking about it alone. Oh, this is scary. So the first full time employee I had the HR guy come in and go through. And as I was asking the questions he was looking at the, I guess, the psychological responses and body language that the person was showing when these questions were being answered. And that's something that I went who, at that stage I hadn't even really thought too much about having to look at someone listen to their answers. Look at their body responses. Did they look away? Did they look to the right or do they look to the left? Did they close their hands or did they open their hands if you reword the question three different ways was it answered three different ways or the same way? And so I was thinking far out man, there is a science behind this. And I was so happy that I did, because the person I bought on, Alex was great as the first full time employee, as I said just family stuff and he had to move down to Coffs Harbour, but it was something that I was so happy I did that. That was a stress that was removed. That comes down to I guess what we touched on a little bit earlier about cowboys and people giving advice when it’s not warranted advice. You're talking a bit about a bit earlier about GST and the right time to sign up for GST. You want to let our audience here a bit about that? Blair: Yes, as I mentioned earlier, I saw on Facebook on one of the business pages, I'm a member of. Someone who had asked about when is the right time to register for GST? They're in business. They're have not met the threshold requirements yet, but wanted to know should they register anyway. There was a lot of people commenting, you know, giving their unqualified advice, and one person commented and that they had registered prior to needing to. And if you use an online bookkeeper such as QuickBooks, it's really easy, which I found was quite an interesting comment to make. Because QuickBooks is not a bookkeeper, it's software. Josh: It’s like comparing a screwdriver to a builder. You don't need a builder to build your house, go and buy a screwdriver. It'll work. It's the same thing. They’re just going to use a screwdriver anyway. The fact that you bought a screwdriver and a hammer and you think you’re going do something with that when you didn't buy nails or screws. It's kind of just like, what are you doing? It's, I thought, yeah, we see some of these situations and it just blows my mind. Have you heard of the Dunning Kruger effect? Blair: No. Josh: So the Dunning Kruger effect. And this is a big, big problem on the internet, it's a cognitive bias, where people think that they are smarter, more capable than they really are. So it pretty much means that people with a lower ability, don't have the skills needed to recognise that they're incompetent. And so they think they know everything, and they'll go and express that to everyone but the more they learn on the topic, the deeper they find the topic is, the less confidence they have, even though they're now more experienced. Does that make sense? The smarter you are at a certain topic, the less confident you are until you've been doing this for years and years and years. And I think that the biggest problem I have on these like Facebook groups and LinkedIn groups and other online forums is people give this advice and they go I've been a business owner for six months. Use Zero, use MYOB, it's easy. You don't need a bookkeeper. Just don't worry about it. Don't worry about depreciation schedules or anything else or how that even works. It's not even something in it. Just make sure the lines line up. The chart of accountants, not something important to you at the moment. It's just go and buy the screwdriver and build the house. Blair: Yeah, yeah, I did find it to be an interesting comment and show that obviously a lot of people don't really understand the value of a bookkeeper and the value to their business. Because it's not just about inputting information into an accounting software. Josh: No, the first person that I had that came into my business after myself. So in 2007, before I started the business, I got all of the different books that I could get from the government on GST and tax and everything that I could possibly learn about how things would work. The Queensland Government, well, just generally, the Australian Government has a lot of resources available. Now, it's probably all online, but back in the day, not so much. And these resources I read cover to cover and all these terrible examples of Sam and Sally going through and buying a certain amount of apples and whatnot. But the end position was I knew more about it, which is good for business owners to know about it. But it still scared the hell out of me. And so the first person I bought in was a bookkeeper to help me out and that was in 2011, I think, 2010, and two years after I set up the trust, and I hadn't done any returns. I was freaking out, I'm like, they're going to send the police here, I'm stuffed. I don't know if I've been doing anything right or wrong, or backwards or upside down, and I thought I’m just going to be completely stuffed and I was freaking out. Anyway, I got the bookkeeper, and she's like, no, it’s so good. We'll get through it. And it was like to fix up the previous two years maybe wasn't much, like $1,000 maybe 1500 dollars. And this is again, rewinding around a decade so adjust for inflation, but oh my goodness, I could sleep better at night. Now, I could have sat there reconciling lines, but it wouldn't have helped me out in the situation that I was in. And the second blunder that I've had is know that your bookkeepers doing what they're meant to be doing. And they have the qualifications and they're associated with the appropriate governing body. So say you're Zero certified and you’re CPA in bits and pieces, because the bookkeeper that I had after the first bookkeeper, the second bookkeeper wasn't looking at the invoices. One of the main suppliers that we had moved over to And we'll then claiming GST on something that we weren't meant to be for a number of years, racked up like a $30,000 GST debt that we weren't anticipating on. Yeah, so definitely don't go do it yourself far out. Blair: Yeah, I know. Like I've got clients who do sort of the bookkeeping side of it themselves. And then every quarter, I check their accounts and lodge their BAS. And I don't believe there is one of those clients, that's when I do the checks. I don't have to fix something that's wrong. Mostly incorrectly classified GST. So you know, claiming GST on things they shouldn't be or vice versa. One of the biggest ones that affect most people is Telstra. So, Telstra does not charge 100% GST on their invoices. I haven't been able to work that out yet. But they don't show that. Josh: Interesting. Wait, what parts are they not charging GST on? Blair: So if you have a look at your Telstra bill, your GST will not be 10% of the total or one-eleven. Yeah, it's usually a little bit less and most business owners just claim, put it in, you know, 500 bucks to my Telstra bill this month, find the GST, $45, and it's not. It might be $30 that they should have claimed. Josh: Far out. That's that's a big one because that's like, not a small company. People know of it. Blair: Yeah, so that's probably the most common one. The other ones would be insurance. People not claiming the right amount on insurance because obviously there's a stamp duty component to insurance that there's no GST on. And yeah, people don't realise that. So Yeah, it's not just about putting the information into the system, it's about ensuring that it's correct, but also making sure that it's been allocated to the right part of the chart of accounts. And that all your accounts actually reconcile, that's going to make your tax accountants job a lot easier at the end of financial year, is if everything's in the right place and reconciling. And like you said, making sure your bookkeeper’s qualified. Like, as a minimum, you want your bookkeeper to be a registered BAS agent? Anyone who's not a registered BAS agent, legally, cannot do anything to do with GST, FBT or single touch payroll. Alright, so chances are they will ask you for your paper BAS form that you've received from ATO so they can fill that out for you. That's a huge red flag. They lodging STP under your company's name rather than under an agent's registration. A lot of things business owners wouldn't realise. And it's something that I tell people a lot is anyone can wake up tomorrow and decide to be a bookkeeper. There is nothing governing them from not doing that. So Mrs. Jones, who's done the books of her husband's building business for the last 40 years. And now all the kids have left home and she's a little bit bored, can wake up and start advertising bookkeeping services. And business owners don't realise how easy it is for someone to do that. Josh: That's terrible. Well, it's great for Mrs. Jones but it’s terrible for every other business that she's working with. Blair: That's right. And often, you know, like, I hear people say, oh, but I can get someone to do it for $10 or $20 less than you down the road. And I'm like, okay, see you in 12 months, when they've messed it up and it’s not right. Josh: Yep. money spent on the right thing saves a lot of money in the future, being cheap is very expensive. Blair: Yeah, and a good bookkeeper will save you money at the end of year with your tax accountant. Like people think they're saving money by not using a bookkeeper. But then it gets to their tax accountant at the end of the year and it's wrong. And the accountant needs to fix it. Most tax accountants are charging anywhere from $150 an hour up. Whereas you're paying a bookkeeper half that. Josh: Circling back to what we're talking about planning for growth, you can't plan for growth if you're doing your own books. It's a task that you're able to outsource to a professional that can hold that screwdriver and build that house for you, build the infrastructure out and make sure it's working. And as you said, if they're checking on the pulse and doing some reconciliation, that's fine, but it doesn't make them a doctor. They're not going to hear a flutter in your heart that you guys will pick up on. So I think anyone's foolish for not engaging in the services of qualified people to look after the items of their business that they're not qualified to be doing it. Tell me a bit a bit about your book. You've got a book called Business Warriors? Blair: Yes, last year, the book was launched first of June last year. So I was a co contributor of 11 authors in that book, so I've written one chapter of that book about my journey in corporate world as a female and, you know, some of the stuff I've seen and experienced. I believe the accounting industry is a bit of a men's club, and considering like I did a little bit of research, when I was writing my chapter around the evolvement of the accounting industry, and found that, you know, way back when that industry started, they didn't actually let women be accountants. Josh: I could see that. Yeah, definitely. Blair: Yeah. And it wasn't until the wars came and they needed to send them into war. They were like, well, what are we going to do? We've got no men to do the work. So they then started letting women do the work. But they weren't allowed to call themselves accountants, even though they were doing the same work that men were doing. Josh: Really? What were they called? Blair: I think, like, just clerks. Like, yes, something along those lines. I kind of feel that's where that men's club started. And the culture of that just sort of continued. Probably, obviously, nowhere near as bad because we now let women work as accountants and 49% of the CPA membership are women. So there are a lot of female accountants in the industry now. And we're allowed to call ourselves accountants or we're allowed to be CPAs and CAs, and, you know, part of these governing bodies that originally we were never allowed to be a part of. We were not recognised in the industry. Josh: The IT industry, similar, very, very male dominated. Now, the majority of the managing positions in IT, 55% women, so it's really good. It's good to see sort of this change. My sister is an engineer. And when she was working for different businesses, she was the female engineer of a team of 100 engineers and things like that. It was good as she saw new blood coming in and empowering that there is sort of a bit of a change here. I still can't believe like some of the shady paths that we've come from. But if anyone out there is looking to have a fantastic bookkeeper, definitely jump across to Enrich Bookkeeping Solutions and give Blair a holler. And I'm sure she'll get to talk to you about all sorts of things from how to grow your business and better your business with your numbers and make sure that if you bought into some advice that you've seen on Facebook, you can do your numbers yourself, it'd be probably a good idea for her to at least give you an audit and then see where you're at. So, if anyone out there does have any advice or would like to leave a review, jump across to iTunes, give us some love and stay healthy and stay good out there in these interesting times.

today we are talking about healthy spices. Since I absolutely love cooking and preparing food but am also into nutrition and stuff, I thoughts: well, let's see if there are more benefits to some spices (after I watched a Tim Ferriss video where he was talking about spices as well) SO YEAH, let's go —————————————————————

Ever wonder what happens if you dent, ding or crack your fancy carbon frame? I did, so I asked the experts at Ruckus Composites. Shawn and Dan walked us through what can be done to salvage a damaged frame or component. This week's sponsor is you.   See how.   Ruckus Composite Website.  Ruckus Composite Instagram. Automated Transcription, please excuse the typos.  All right, welcome. Everybody. We're live from the gravel ride podcast. And today we've got some guests from, from Ruckus talking about carbon warfare. It's actually quite timely for me as a couple of friends that asked me about some carbon repair work they wanted to have done, and I had no idea how to approach it. So gentlemen, welcome to the show. Thanks for, thanks for having us. Can you guys start by introducing yourself? Take away. All right. Yeah. As Dan said, I'm Shawn and the owner and founder, and I started ruckus over 12 and a half years ago. Yeah. My name is Dan and I am our repair strategist and customer success person Right on Shawn. What was the impetus behind starting Ruckus? Okay. Is kind of a long rambling story of, I was 24 at the time, fresh out of engineering school and really liked bikes. And didn't really fit the traditional mold of being an engineer. I'm not an office guy per se. Um, I can't spend all my day on a computer, so I would like working with my hands a lot, really wanted to create a business where I could work with my hands, but also kind of create the ideas that were locked up in my crazy head Right on. And were you, did you start it off as sort of a one man show? Oh yeah. Robot or two. I probably had a Roomba at the time that Rubin's ever around, but I always try to keep a balance of one human and one robot at every time. There you go. That's the engineering year. Right? Exactly. So I was excited to talk to you guys about carbon bike repair, cause it is a little bit of a mystery to me, how it all works. And you know, you think about cracking a carbon frame or at least I did prior to this conversation that, you know, the thing's hosed it's, you know, I'm never going to be able to ride it again. Can you talk about the types of repairs that are possible for carbon frames? Did Dan you're good at this one? Yeah. I mean, it's, for us, it's kind of the circumstance of we can repair almost anything, but it's only really, we take it to the point where we think it's safe to do so. A lot of times, you know, things that will decline, for example, our car and bike situations where a rider will get into an accident and, you know, bikes that have four or five visible damages. Um, technically we could repair something like that, but we don't really deem it safe to do so. Um, that's like the extent of things that we won't do. Um, but for the most part, you know, we do basic tube repairs. We do dropout replacements. Uh, we can do full bottom bracket, repairs and replacements as well. Um, you know, we, we will, a lot of things that we've been seeing recently, uh, our tire rubbed damages on gravel bikes, for example, people, the combination of too wide of tires in a given condition that isn't suitable, um, front derailer mounts have been coming off. Boy, am I missing anything? Sean? There's a lot. We do. We do a, we do a lot, a lot, a lot of different types of repairs on a very regular basis. Yeah, it's pretty, very, but you know, at the same point, it's just, we see the same bike over and over or same bikes over and over and over again. So it's some days it feels a little bit not honest. And you kind of forget that. We see some of the most interesting things on the bike side. Like we already got a brand new specialized 20, 20 Shivan and it's like, I haven't even seen this bike online. It's got this kind of cool, uh, course of the camera. Cool. Like vertical cross cross fork, and you look at it and you're like, okay, bikes are getting crazy again. It looks just like that. It looks just like the Lotus track bike fork. Oh yeah, Yeah. It's that dual, that dual bladed thing. So yeah, we do. Um, it's, it's again, it's like we can, we can repair almost anything, but we choose, you know, specifically based on whether it's safe or not to do Right. What did that poor individual with the brand new Shiv do to his bike to put it in your hands Shipping damage hasn't even been built for assembly yet. And it's just getting shipped across the country. And I don't know a lot of shipping companies that are generally fine, but you know, you throw enough probability into it and you know, there may be 10%, 5% of scenarios and you're going to be on the losing end every now and then. So shipping insurance is always good. So what does that process look like on your end? So let's just say I've cracked my chain stay and maybe, you know, I see some damage, but I don't see a hole. Do I send it up to you? And do I get some sort of analysis back for me to consider if the repair is something I want to move forward with? Yeah. Where we usually start with something like this as we'll have the customer send us pictures, um, and a variety of ways, email, we, our number also gets texts as well. So it's, it's an easy way to communicate with people, but we usually start with photos. Um, on the odd chance we can actually tell, um, you know, through a photo only, um, if the bike is okay, we'll just tell the customer to monitor it. But most things start with the photo. Um, and then we take out a case and we'll bring in the bike. And if the area is in question of if it's broken or not, it goes through the ultrasound scan process. Um, and through that, we can determine, you know, empirically within a thousandth of an inch, whether the bike is actually damaged or not. Um, and then after that's all said and done, we'll communicate with the customer again, if the bike is okay, it's, you know, ready to send home at that point, if they want, uh, if they want to paint, touch up, we can do that. Or if the bike actually needs to be repaired, they'll get a confirmation of the original estimate at that point. A and then we can Begin the repair process if it's a normal tube repair, uh, at pretty much at that time. So yeah, it usually starts out with photos and a conversation of what, you know, the rider was doing at the time, what the damage looks like and kinda on top of that, like we've seen over 13,000 cases. So we were pretty good idea if someone says, Oh, I have this type of bike and this type of bike and they go, Oh yeah. Is your seat stay broke. Okay, Cool. Gotcha. So when I imagine ultrasound, I'm thinking of a doctor and a pregnant woman and that little gel, what goes on when you ultrasound a bike? I mean, that's exactly, that's exactly it. It's, it's a very, it's a it's that. So Sean has a couple of fluid that he puts over the area and our transducer is, is what, two and a half to 2.5, right? Shawn, 2.5 millimeters in diameter. No, it's four it's four. Okay. So he has a four millimeter transducer that he puts over the area and it puts a wave sound into the bike and comes back. The readout would be different from something that you would see in the hospital. Uh, it's more of a wave form than actually an image, but Shawn is able to tune the wave based on the specific layup of the bike to gain the information that he would need to determine if something would be broken. So if I had to, I say I had a really bad scratch, you know, from a rock. And I clearly went through the paint and into the carbon fiber. Is that analysis able to tell you, you know, from that wall thickness, you've gone halfway through it or three quarters of the way through it. Yeah, exactly. So kind of how that works is the ultrasound is Dan said, it kicks out a wave the way it penetrates through the carbon bounces off the backside. And it comes back to my transducer. That's kind of how we read it. And if we hit something that would be an air pocket or Boyd, or, you know, if there was less material, the screen's going to show that and we have to, you know, we have to interpolate it a little bit or interpret it quite a bit to kind of convert that squiggly wave form into, you know, a bicycle, but it's kind of the gist of it. And is there, is there some amount of carbon kind of deep scratch that is okay and livable and you'll message back to the customer, Hey, you know, you're only 15% down. It's probably safe. Yeah, definitely. I mean, it's, it kind of, every single bike is different. Every single rider is different. Every single location is different. Like, you know, it doesn't matter the material per se, but almost every bike, the wall thickness of whether it's steel or aluminum or titanium or carbon changes so much throughout a bike. You know, we have, we see some mountain bikes nowadays that are over three millimeters thick of carbon, which is insanely thick. Wow. And then we have certain seat stays that are our top tubes that are only 0.7 millimeters, which is like next to nothing. So everything's gotta be kinda comparative or you kinda look at the whole picture of like, okay. And then, you know, we don't like to think of like the rider too much. We like to think of just making sure everybody's safe. So we don't really take into account if someone's like, well, I don't really hit too big of jumps. And you're like, you know, we talked to some guys up in Bellingham or Whistler and you know, to them and I don't, I personally don't leave the ground. So anything leaving the ground is a big job. So Yeah, absolutely interesting. And so the, can the range of repair work go from, you know, that deep scratch that has affected structural integrity to a complete break in a tube? Oh yeah. The entire tube could be severed off or even missing. We've replaced entire tubes before, you know, it's a little more severe. Um, but really, you know, there's not a lot of limits and that's kinda one of the cooler things about composites as a material versus like some of the metals is, you know, your repair work is so much smaller. Um, it's more of a localized repair versus having to replace an entire tube, you know, with a metal bike, you know, you can repair any metal bike as well. Um, but it typically takes an entire to replacement. So it's surprisingly way more expensive. You know, most composite repairs are about 500 bucks or less on average, but you know, metal repairs, you're closer to a thousand. So let's, let's take a couple of the different scenarios. Let's stick one on the one hand, which is just maybe a, a piercing or a scratch that is, is definitely dangerous and needs to be repaired. What does that repair look like? How do you actually address my carbon frame with the materials you're going to use to really support it? Good question. Um, it's, as far as the repair goes, our process for let's say it, you know, some something that we've seen a number of times is a very piercing strike on, on a down tube. Uh, but Santa's mountain bike, especially recently, the way that all of the down tubes are being extruded from the bottom bracket with more of an exaggerated curve, we see a lot of damage to that area. So the process for our repair is repeatable, but not necessarily, not necessarily always similar if you know, we're doing the same steps towards every bike, but every damage is different. So it's not exactly the same process. Um, so the cost options that we provide are not tuned towards the repair. It's all on the finishing side. So basically every normal tube repair that we do, we'll give our customers a range of options from just a basic mat, black paint or a Mason or basic matte black vinyl wrap to a full paint match. And that customer is getting the same exact safe repair lifetime, but we're going to give them a different option of price depending on what they want it to look like. Because some people don't care. You know, some people are like, Hey, it's my mountain bike. I'm going to beat the crap out of it. I'll take the $500 repair rather than the full paint match. You know, that, that works fine for somebody they're getting the same fix either way. So if I've pierced my frame, um, is it sort of like you're taking some carbon material and almost bonding a bandaid of carbon over top of that, It's a little more involved than that. It's, you know, carbon composite repairs better on the aerospace industry for a long, long time. So there's already proven standards written by the American society of mechanical engineers or American society of testing and materials. And we really follow up pretty similar guidelines of repairing tubes is a little more complicated, especially tubes of insane geometry that bikes have nowadays, whether they're, you know, ovals schools, squares, or rectangles around. Um, but it all kind of starts with, you know, we evaluate that whole area and we kind of have to like map out how far the damage goes for starters. And then after we map out the damage extent, we got to kind of map out the repair extent, which is usually extents. You know, let's call it three inches and every direction around it. And what we do is we then kind of excavate or machine out all the broken fiber and we get rid of it. You know, it's not doing anything there's not really much you can do with it to kind of repurpose it. So then we kind of machine out all that area and sand it all out and get rid of it. And now we apply a brand new carbon fiber on top of it and taper it out through the entire tube to make sure the entire tube is completely strong repaired, and we're not creating any stress risers anywhere on the bike. Gotcha. And then we add one of our listeners write in and ask about, you know, the completely broke the stay. Are you basically then sort of sawing off the, you know, the completely mangled sections and adding in an entirely new tube? Uh, we could be, we do a lot of three D printing in house. We have a big, we've always had a big strap, like professional, industrial Stratasys 3d print machines. So we can pro um, or three D print and design molds and tools and inserts. And you know, and the hardest part with honestly with bikes is in maintaining the integrity of alignment. You know, if there's a slight variation at your dropout, um, your wheel's going to be crooked and with everybody's running huge tires right now, which is great. But if you then have a, like a, a little bit of a dropout misalignment and then multiply that over 13 inches of a wheel radius give or take, and that exacerbates the angle so bad that it pushes your wheels straight into your chance. So the hardest part is sometimes alignment more than anything, just making sure, you know, we're trying to align kind of thin air with certain repairs. You're like, well, I need to put this seats. I need to put a seat, stay back in the frame, but there's a huge gap in between. So how do we fill that gap? There's a lot of puzzles involved Frame alignment tools. Yeah. We probably have almost every tool you can, you end up having frame alignment tools to help in that process? Yeah. We have framed jigs. We've had a lot of custom built tools. We have, you know, end mills for milling and mitering. We have drill presses of, you know, we have almost every tool you can think of. Like, don't forget the lady, boy, the lady boy, which so we can lay it all around tools and answers. Um, repair is more about like being inventive and tool creative than anything. You're like, how are we going to hold this shape? That's not a shit, you know, like a wacky school goal type thing in alignment, or we have, we have two granite tables as well for alignment that are, I think they're done to it like 10,000, no more than that 0.000001 of an inch of alignment. So we can always plot things on there and make standoff blocks or use dial indicators. So before, before we move on from, uh, from Greg's question of being able to repair that seed stay, this is actually a, uh, the case in point of an example of where we wouldn't do Greg's repair until we performed a full inspection on this bike. Um, you know, 45 mile an hour front flip that bike didn't come to a complete stop immediately. Uh, I've I've had a crash similar to this, uh, about 10 years ago and it was really, really bad. Um, so we would basically say that this bike is going to start out at the full ultrasound inspection for the frame and fork and pending us finding damages elsewhere in the frame. Then, then we would begin to consider the other repairs on this bike because that's the beauty of ultrasound. And that's why I think we shine as an organization is we're not only fixing things that are visible, we're actually able to impuricably discern other damages in the bike. So we're not just guessing that one area is going to be okay. We're able to see every other area on the bike if it's okay or not. And you know, a lot of times we'll find in these kinds of situations, we'll find the fork to be broken, um, based on, you know, the bike tumbling or the steer tube getting, getting tweaked, um, and a lot of our customers, once they find out that the fork is broken, if it's an older bike, they'll decide not to do the repair because it's going to be very difficult to source a, you know, proprietary fork from 2013. So not only are we keeping people safe, uh, for a low costs, we're able to steer people in the direction of a new safe bike, you know, because now that they know that they're not going to be able to get these parts anymore. So that's, this is a scenario that we see all the time of there's an visual damage, but we need to take a step back and look at everything before we commit, just to make sure that everything is safe and able to work well down the road together. So yeah, that's something that we see almost, you know, I see this like two or three times a week talking to our customers. Yeah. I think I would be a bit torn up if I cracked my carbon frame and I would just be grappling with, you know, do I send it to you guys for repair? Or at what point does it make sense to upgrade? It's a tough call, but it's, you know, many of us are riding bikes that we absolutely love and would hate to sort of send out to pasture earlier than they need to, you know, in an ideal scenario, I want to ride a bike hard, love it, and then pass it on to someone else who can love it. Correct. And for me, one of the things that I always say is if you have bought your bike within the past five years, and aren't dreaming of a component of a serious component upgrade, then it makes sense to fix your bike because that's usually the thing is if you decide to replace your bike, you know, and that's been made in the past couple of years, there's going to be some chances are there's going to be some kind of proprietary element that you need to also get. So you're not just going to be in shipping repair return, shipping fee. You're going to be in that additional cost as well. So, you know, I still, my, my personal bike is a Scott addict, rim break. It's been broken two or three times. Luckily I work, but I don't, you know, I it's, it's my good weather road bike. I don't dream of a disc road bike for the summer. So it made a lot of sense to get it fixed because that bike serves that utility. So if you know, if it's a bike that you want to keep for a long time and you have components you like on it, then it's almost no question repair is usually the way to go. But if an upgrade is then your future and we can help you figure that out, Hey, then we're happy to do that too. So we talked a bit about the assessment process and the repair process, and you alluded to a couple of different options. You can just get the black carbon put on the frame, if you just kind of want that. You know, I don't care what my mountain bike looks like on the down tube kind of phenomenon. But I also saw on your site, some immaculate paint matching and repair work you've done on some beautiful bicycles. Are you guys doing that in house? Are you working with someone local to you? No, we do it all in house. The hard way, uh, growing our paint department was kind of a very hard and painstaking process because bike painting is it's socks. Um, it's super hard. Yeah, there's no shortcuts. And you know, you could go to an auto body shop, people that can paint cars, they all think they can paint bikes. And the idea of there's people that can paint flat things. There's people that paint round things. And there's two different words. And we know almost all the bike, major bike painters that are independent bike painters in the country as well. They'd say the same thing like spring a tube is so different spraying a quarter panel, a, you know, on like a card or something. And laying graphics is so hard. So we grew everything internally, painstakingly very, very painstakingly and learning how cheap paints will kind of screw you some days versus expensive paints or cheap clear codes versus expensive clear codes. And I don't think the average person knows how expensive paint or clear coat is, but some of our paints are, you know, if you're talking about like half a pint, you know, it's almost 70, 80 bucks. Uh, and our clear coats are almost $500 for a gallon. And it's like, yeah, they last a while, but they don't last that long. You're maybe talking like five to 10 full bikes, maybe, um, depending how many bronze and clear you want to shoot this. Stuff's just very expensive and the guns are expensive. You know, they're, you're in a thousand to 2000 bucks just for the gun air compressor. And Oh, I could go forever about this, but luckily we have a great painter in house. You could just freakishly max a match, everything under the sun, all the insane specialized, uh, glitter coats that are doing right now, the shimmer codes we've done all the Thermo chromic paints where they change color with different heat signature. Oh, Dan's bike actually changes with different colors. He does. Yep. Wow. All, I think I was looking at a picture of a [inaudible] on your site that was beautifully color match and had intricate pin, like a pin Stripe line through the color. It was, it was insane. And from the picture it looked brand new. Some of those coal Naga restorations are absolutely the fine are some of our painters finest work there, boy, they're not cheap. Um, but at that point, you know, and the owners even agree with us. It's like, you're doing a classic car at that point. So, you know, why would you want to do it inexpensively anyway, you want it to be proper and in its pristine condition and he has the ability to do it. Um, yeah, they're, they're, they're not cheap and they take a long time, but the end result is boy, if they look the third doing some of the photography around here, those are some of the best bikes to shoot. Cause it's an endless amount of detail that we have to do to them. So yeah, we, uh, we have quite the range of, of, uh, finishing that we're able to achieve here. Be it the most basic vinyl and, and get it out as quickly as possible to, you know, uh, hand pin striping [inaudible] but yeah, he does it all. It's pretty, it's pretty, pretty wild. Yeah. I'll put, I'll put some photos up on, on Instagram and Facebook and I'll obviously put your URL in the show notes so people can go over and it out before We go tonight, do you guys have any sort of funny or outlandish stories from the over 13,000 bikes you guys have inspected, that would be fun to share on the podcast. Poof, There's so many, we've seen stuff from a lot of pro racers, so like very household names, um, from the pro tour, even we even have one in the shop right now, those from the tour de France last year. Um, so do stuff on that level. I just saw there was a repair request from today of a guy that like ended while doing a manual at 25 miles an hour to show off is to show off in front of his 11 year old. Uh, I don't know. I mean, there's a lot of great stories are like peop bikes have gone through forest fires and boy, I dunno, what do you got damn. The one of our classic favorites is, uh, I think we tell this story every time, but it's, it's so great. Somebody dropped an industrial waffle iron on their top tube and broke it and that's all we got. And that's why it's one of my favorite stories because there's so much intrigue and mystery into the details of this story, full iron. Why, how big is it? How, how many waffles can it make? Why do you have, what were you doing? What kind of waffles did you make? Right. So that's the mystery also, where are they? Uh, that one's great. Um, some of boy, I mean, we've seen somebodies beloved house cat chew through their seat's day sounds. I mean, the stories we see you can't make up. Um, I'm also thinking of, um, on the inspection side, one of the thing, one time we, we, somebody brought in a damaged bike and it had some issues or in front of, uh, or excuse me, kind of like right behind the bottom bracket on the chain stay. And Sean did the ultrasound scan and was like, this is, I don't know about this. This is pretty bizarre. And right along the crack line, we found a piece of pre preg backing paper that wasn't mold that was molded into the laminate. Um, and Shaun's ultrasound readings were, were totally wild. He was like, I don't know what to say. I've never seen anything like this. And it was like, I forget what brand it was, but it was an older bike, like 2010 or 2009. Uh, yeah, prepregs backing paper in the laminate. And that's exactly where the damage occurred. Um, we've found tons of dirt in bikes from the factory. Those are Inside the frame, like closed off and we poured out like, I think it was like 90 grams of dirt. And we were like, okay, This bike is brand new. You're like, how did all this? And then also imagine you get the, uh, I drove my car into a parking garage. Well, daily, weekly, yeah. At least one at least once or twice a week. Every, every, every once a week. But that one, yeah, that's a full inspection. Those are always full inspections. So if you're listening and you did that, don't yeah. We know, you know, don't think it's going to be okay that you just hit your car into a house, even if it was only five miles an hour. Yeah. I just say you take like Moveable object of your house and like a 4,000 pound car and then a 20 pound bike. And you're like, alright, that's going to stop. But all that apparently. All right. Yeah. It's simple. All the time we saw, we, we have seen people doing like longer descents, uh, who have hit deer who have hit deer before. Uh, also also a full inspection, definitely full inspection. Those bikes can be pretty, I don't know, but sometimes we do the full inspection and Sean and I joke about this all the time. It's like, sometimes they're, there's nothing wrong with them and you know, it's, it's not every time we do a full inspection, the bike is completely smoked. Um, you know, oftentimes they're, they're totally okay. But at least people are able to walk away with that peace of mind. And, and now that now, now they know they have the safety to do all their favorite rides again. But yeah, we've seen so many wild things over the years. That's awesome. Well, I appreciate all the information you guys, there's a lot of fun for me to learn about carbon repair. I think one of the takeaways specifically for our listeners who are obviously the majority gravel, cyclists, is just pay attention to that tire diameter and mud damage. I have one more for you as well. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, drops chain stays. It's all the rage be careful. And how do you see that playing out with the drop stays? Cause that is a design feature in a lot of these gravel bikes. I know I was actually looking about like, I like to do a just review and analysis and thinking about drop chain stays versus res chain stays, you know, like on the Trek, uh, stash has a raised chain stay and I'm like, okay, that totally removes the chain suck issue. But with the drop chain state, it kinda like puts it more in harm's way. And I think people are trying to run a one buys system, which I love one by systems. But when you try to maximize your chain ring side, let's say you go to a 38 on a drop chain, stay on a like standard road with bike. You're playing with fire a little bit. Um, and you start to see, you know, like you're bouncing along. And even if you have a clutch or whatever, I don't think it really matters. Um, either way the chain kind of comes up a little bit on the bottom lower side of the chain ring and it just comes right into that chance today. So I would like to say like, give yourself A little more room or you may not be that. Okay. I dunno, stoked, but maybe run a slightly smaller chain ring. Like go down to six, maybe. Um, give yourself a little more room there. Just get that chain away from that drop chain state. Yeah. This comes from being a lot of these. Yeah. Next time I'm grinding some mud through my chain stays. I'm going to have a little bit of fear in my heart after talking to you guys. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. It's an easy fix. So just let us know Craig, you can just let us know, just keep pedaling if anything happened. Just peddle through it. That's my alright guys. Well, I appreciate you joining me live and I appreciate the insight for our listeners take care and we'll, we'll talk again soon. All right. Thank you so much. See you guys. Thank you. Bye bye.      

Thanks for joining up for another episode of BWDWK! We don't know why but we are super giddy in this episode and we promise we're not drunk. So YEAH there will be off topic chatter for the haters. ANYWAY... Marissa goes a little out of her areas of ~expertise~ when discussing the tragic death of Jayna Murray AKA the Lululemon Murder. Then Anna goes cryptid style discussing the very little details of the elusive Mongolian Death Worm. Enjoy!_Thank you to our lovely sponsor for this episode!Eskandalo Hair: follow them on Instagram @eskandalohair or check out their website eskandalohair.com. Call 610-625-9100 to schedule an appointment. Mention this podcast and get 10% off your service!_Social media:Facebook: @BWDWKpodcastTwitter: @BWDWKpodcastInstagram: @butwhatdoweknowpodcastEmail: butwhatdoweknowpod@gmail.com_** PLEASE SUBSCRIBE, RATE & REVIEW

CHIIIIIIIINA. SO YEAH. STILL ON LOCKDOWN AND SHIT. HOPE EVERYONE IS DOING SWELL AND IF YOU GOT THAT CORONA...STAY THE FUCK AWAY FROM HERE, YO. BUT ON A REAL NOTE, WE WERE BLESSED WITH THE PRESENCE OF OUR BOY AND ODG PODCAST VETERAN, FRANCO AKA YUNG MALO, AND HIS HOMIE JAKE AKA FUEGO. AS YOU MAY KNOW, MALO JOINED US ON THE POD A FEW WEEKS AGO AND RETURNS WITH HIS BOY, FUEGO. FUEGO IS THE DRUMMER FOR A METAL BAND NAMED "DISTINGUISHER". BOTH FUEGO AND MALO GOT PROJECTS OUT FOR YOU TO STREAM, BUY, AND PROCREATE TO. BUT ANYWAY JOIN US FOR A LAUGH FILLED EPISODE THAT WAS DOUBLE THE LENGTH OF ANY POD WE PUT OUT YET. THE FILE WAS BIGGER THAN JOE EXOTIC'S HATE FOR CAROLE BASKIN SO WE HAD TO BREAK THIS BAD BOY INTO TWO PARTS. STAY SAFE OUT IN THESE STREETS AND DON'T GO AND TOUCH A RAILING UNNECESSARILY AND GET THAT CORONAVIRUS. REMEMBER!!!! PART 2 IS RIGHT AFTER THIS! SIGNING OUT FROM MAKING WAVES STUDIOS... MAKE SHIT HAPPEN...CHASE YOUR DREAMS...AND STOP OBSESSING OVER TIK TOK GIRLS, YA BITCH!!!!

This weeks guest is Steve Sims. Do you know anyone that’s worked with Sir Elton John or Elon Musk? Sent people down to see the wreck of the Titanic on the sea bed or closed museums in Florence for a private dinner party and then had Andre Bocelli serenade them while they eat their pasta? Well, you do now. Quoted as “The Real Life Wizard of Oz" by Forbes and Entrepreneur Magazine, Steve Sims is a best selling Author with "BLUEFISHING - the art of making things happen”, sought-after consultant and a speaker at a variety of networks, groups and associations as well as the Pentagon and Harvard – twice!Links: website: https://www.stevedsims.com/ FB Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/stevedsims/ IG: https://www.instagram.com/stevedsims/Welcome back to the fuel your legacy podcast. Each week we expose the faulty foundational mindsets of the past and rebuild the newer, stronger foundation essential in creating your meaningful legacy. We've got a lot of work to do. So let's get started. As much as you like this podcast, I'm certain that you're going to love the book that I just released on Amazon if you will, your legacy, the nine pillars to build a meaningful legacy. I wrote this to share with you the experiences that I had while I was identifying my identity, how I began to create my meaningful legacy and how you can create yours. You're going to find this book on kindle amazon and as always on my website, Sam Knickerbocker. comWelcome back to fuel your legacy and today we have an incredible guest. It's cool the more people that I've had on the more notable people that I've been able to have on which is always exciting. So today, we have Steve Sims And he was here in Utah a few months ago speaking at a conference for, for some people who are looking to, to understand what he does, I'm excited to bring it on. Because understanding the ROI of relationships is, I think key and everything and there is so many of the most successful people that I know that I listened to that I associate with, say relationships are the new economy, right? That's the new currency is how well do you know somebody? So, Steve, he's a speaker and author. He's the founder of bluefish, direct founder of boot camp marketing, and it's your coach and real and he's been called so this is the best thing is when people title you as things because the titles other people give you end up being some of the most wonderful ways to market yourself because you just, it's just raw. So he's been called the real-life Wizard of Oz according to Forbes, and Entrepreneur Magazine so that I mean That's a that's quite a glowing compliment to be called The Wizard of Oz. What? What pen brought that on? Where'd you get your start? And what was your childhood like? And why are you doing what you're doing today?Wow. Um, first of all being called the villain like Wizard of Oz is a double-edged sword because let's be blunt, the Wizard of Oz was a fake.You kind of go, Oh, that's very nice. And then you go, Oh crap, and they called me a fake.So I like to take it on its face value that I am the guy that can less little get you through the journey. So I class myself as an educated man. But I don't believe the school had anything to do with that. I left. I left school at the age of 15 and ended up working on my father's construction site. And I didn't have any future didn't have any hopes didn't have any goals. We didn't live in a world of the internet where we were bombarded with what the other half was living with or what they had. So I grew up ignorant. And immune to all of the luxury and stuff like that. But as an entrepreneur, you don't become an entrepreneur, you are an entrepreneur. It's either your left-handed or your right hand is just, it's just one of those things. And I remember growing up, conflicted, disgruntled, dissatisfied, and all of those things that have everyone going, Oh, you've got a DD and oh, you can't focus and you can't concentrate. It wasn't the fact that I couldn't focus I couldn't concentrate. I wasn't being engaged. And nothing was excited me. Nothing was challenging me. And entrepreneurs, we need to be challenged. We come alive. When we're challenged. And as a bricklayer, I was being told this is what you do, and then you grow old and then you die. That was my life. And it didn't make sense to me. I left the building site, and not knowing what I wanted to do, but just know Do it but just knowing firmly that wasn't what it was. I ended up selling cakes on the back of lorries. I ended up being an insurance door to door salesman. And if anyone's ever seen me, can you imagine me knocking on your door an o'clock at night trying to sell you life insurance. It didn't go well. I ended up getting a job in Hong Kong by completely lying on a resume. I lasted 24 hours and I was fired.Now I was just trying anything to get to something that would challenge and excite me. And I found it in the funniest place. I ended up working on the door of a nightclub. And it was a great position. It was a great pedestal for me to watch the world I was able to watch humanity and to see how they handled themselves how they spoke to others how they interacted, you know, like bar staff is some of the best communicators in the world. You know, they'll talk to someone in a business suit, and then I talked to a group of girls are Guys completely differently within a split second you know they are very good at altering the way they communicate with the different people based on a split second assumption of your attitude, the way you dress how which you look out for you, all those kind of things as a doorman no one wants to talk to a doorman because they're there to punch you in the head. You know, no one wants to talk to him. But I was able to watch them and I would stand on the door of nightclubs and go, I want to be that person. I want to be that group. I want to have them as friends. And so then what I started doing was trying to find a way that they would talk to me as a person and not as a dormant and because I knew where all the parties were and all the best events where I started getting extra tickets and going up to my regulars going Hey guys, I know you like a good night. Did you notice a premiere going on on Friday? Are you going? Now we're not we don't know how to get in. Well, let me make a phone call. Maybe it again for viewing I started becoming this fixer. This, this guy that knew. And the only reason I did it was not that I was a social butterfly far from it was because I wanted to give the people I wanted to talk to a reason to talk to me. It was a Trojan horse. If I can talk to you about getting you into a private body, I can talk to you about what makes you successful, how you had things, why you change, and they always say you are the combination of the five people you hang around with. Well, it was fine. I was hanging around with five bikers. So that wasn't going to get me very far in life. So I had to change my circle when I did. It just started is that before you knew it, I went from getting people in the parties to throw in the parties myself to suddenly being associated with some of the biggest events in the world. From fashion weeks to Grammys to Kentucky Derby. Ferrari's Cavalier no classic Elton John's Oscar party, I became associated with the grandest most often Skylab fluent event on a planet, and therefore my clients were those people, all those people should I say? And then I started marketing them and branding their products you know, I know people coming to me going hey, I've got a company that sells lipsticks, you know, how would you do an advert? And I will I don't like your advert because you're marketing to the wrong people. And I suddenly start became a brand and so on for these companies. Two years ago, I got asked, Hey, would you release a book on the rich and famous people you deal with? And I said, Now I'd bet I'd be dead by cocktail hour. So then they came back to me this will okay. Would you buy a book on how fabric Live from London can now be working with Elon Musk and the Pope? And that made sense to me. So we released a book, not thinking it would be successful not put any marketing behind it. It didn't do well in the first couple of months and then it took off in the third and since then, I've been doing podcasts and speaking engagements all over the world. I consult for Entrepreneurs of all levels. I have an online course called Sims distillery that helps people learn how to communicate. And it's just grown and I've become my brand. So, from bricklayer to dealing with the meanest, most affluent people in the world to now being an author, speaker, and coach, it's a very interesting journey.Yeah, I love it. And so funny how different and different people come into their passion, different ways. And some people I had a guest on a little while ago who she found her passion, really through, it was something that it was her passion as at a young age, then she lost sight of it or she was dissuaded from it. And then she circled back to her passion. And I love one of the things you said, Well, actually, it's kind of a kind of both in hand in hand, you don't become an entrepreneur. You either are one of them or not ones, as a movie, and it's okay not to be an audience. corner, sometimes because I work in the entrepreneur world where I'm actively seeking out entrepreneurs. And, and so the assumption is by a lot of people that I just think everybody's an entrepreneur and everybody can do it. And I just want to work with everybody. And the reality is, I don't know what the percentage of entrepreneurs are, but it's not a high percentage of people who are entrepreneurs, there's a high percentage of them. There's a high percentage of people who are not entrepreneurs who liked the security, as the certainty, as the safety of working for an entrepreneur,and that's fine. That's fine. There's you know, we got three grades at the moment. And it's like me moaning at you because of your height. You know, you have no control over your height. Okay. So you either are an entrepreneur or you're not. There's a lot of one trip owners out there, they look at it and think, Oh, it's a sexy life. Yeah, I'm an entrepreneur, but they can't handle the two o'clock in the morning not being able to pay your bills on Friday or the fact that you all out on the front line, an entrepreneur is a guy that jumps off the cliff, and then builds a parachute on the way down. And there are phenomenal intrapreneurs I think every entre, we had a quick discussion on this before we went live. A good entrepreneur needs to surround himself with phenomenal intrapreneurs These are the people the love that life until the last bit where you're your next on the line, and that's fine. I'm surrounded by phenomenal intrapreneurs that are creative, driven, push it and help support me be on the front line. So I believe there are great entrepreneurs, but the one tripping is not too flaky and they fall by the wayside very quickly. And so how would you help somebody if they're sitting there listening to this and they're not sure who they are, what where they fall in that maybe just because of lack of experience, lack of Discovery a lot of people who listen to this they're their stay at home moms are people who have been basically sacrificed their life for for the love of their children or for other people. And so they've never really gained the experience or tried out the different positions, you could say. How would you help them kind of look at their life and say, Well, what about me? Where would I fit in these categories? Well, first of all, as an entrepreneur, you are mich broke, rich, broke, broke, rich, rich, rich, broke rich. It's a Helter Skelter over life. I don't think any entrepreneur, given the vision chart of how they're going to be over the next few years, whatever, optionally go, Oh, yeah, I like that. Because entrepreneurs will get laughed at spat at ridiculed Elon Musk musk. He said it to me ages ago. He said they laugh at you before they applaud. Now, if you're not the person that can stand being hated, ridiculed and laughed at the maybe you should be an on an entrepreneur. If you don't care, and you want to be challenged, maybe you're an entrepreneur. But it does come down to that final line of are you willing to take it on the shoulders, finances, because a lot of the times we've lost, we've lost as entrepreneurs money, and we've got it, we're up against it. And then all of a sudden, at like five o'clock on Friday, we're going to pay payroll, and we're running all of our credit cards to do that. We've all been through it. The life of an entrepreneur is not sexy. It's not something we chose is something we are.I love that I think that's so beautifully put. And if you go back and listen to it, and just ask yourself, hey, where do I fit, you know, it's okay. You might be as creative as, as eager to create in your life, different things, but maybe you don't have the wherewithal to have people ridicule us. That's something that I, I think I always had inside of me. But it for me, it took a while to expose that because of the social programming, that you should care about what other people think it took me a while to ultimately say no, I like in my heart. I don't care what you think about me. I'm going to do, what I feel confident doing and what I want to do, regardless of whether you think it's a good idea, anybody, right?Yeah, it gets really, it's very hard to run when you got someone sitting on your shoulders. And so careful about what you do, care about what you solve, care about what you do, but don't care about someone's naysaying opinion. you'll usually find that the person sitting in the corner going, Oh, look at Oh, he can't all watch it. That person's never going to be your client and let's be blunt, never amount to anything. Because people like to sit in the corner and tell you you can't do something because they don't want you proven the diamond Quit to do it themselves.Yeah, that is something that I completely agree with. And I tell people that I work with often had one, one woman a few months back who had asked me, and well, because she was thinking about working with me, she said, Well, I don't want to waste your time. And I saw her Look, I don't let people waste my time. Yeah,yeah, not exactly.twice on me. And if you rescheduled twice, you go in the hopper of people I might call once every six months. It's just not committed to their future yet, but you may be in the future like I don't allow people to waste my time. That's not how this game works. So I love that. So moving forward, something else that you said that I think people needs to understand. And I want to add some specificity here because this is I believe, key in this phrase, especially if you're listening to Gary Vaynerchuk. Or there's a lot of people I think Gary Vee is probably the highest one that says as often it's just you have to add value, you have to add value, you have to add value to others. People before you ask for value in return. And I think that that's true. to a point, right, just adding value, there's a lot of ways to add value in people's lives, right toilet papers valuable. Somebody guiding you a Walmarts valuable like there's a lot of value that you could add. But what love what you did, you added value with the intention that the value add was intentional too, as you said, a Trojan horse to get something out of it not that you expected or that you are going to do a tit for tat type expectation of something out of it. But you are very intentional with how you are adding value to whom you are adding value so that you could get around certain individuals. And please speak to that as to why that's so important that the intentional adding value rather than just random value addingyou got to be laser focus today because we're in a world of mass distraction. So you've got to be Short and sharp to the point while creating something that benefits you as well. Now, I agree with you about you've got to add value. I also agree with you that there are multiple different levels of value. But you've got to go to the value that gets as close as it possibly can to the core of the individual. So, you know, I've worked with very affluent people, very powerful people. Not always very famous people. So you can go to these people and you can say, Hey, I know you don't know me. Get that out of the way. That's always a good one to get out of the room straight away. I know we haven't met I know we haven't been introduced, but there's something that I would like to do with you. But before we get into that, I'm aware that you support this charity. I'm aware that you have got a new book coming out. I am aware that you're promoting your media brand. I'm aware that I've got an idea after looking over this, how I can help you get more reach, get more input, get more donations to get better. Marketing getting better, and show that you've paid attention to? Okay? You may well turn around and go all this and they may turn around and go, Well, actually, we've got a marketing team that just actually said that to me. And I've said about what and they've come back to me and they've gone, hey, we've done now I've gone right. That's, that's brilliant. But it shows that you focus and As the old saying goes, they won't care until you show you care. Now, in that conversation, if you dissect what I've just said, I've got out of the room that you don't know me. And when I say you don't know me, you may know my name. You don't know my credibility. You don't know my reputation and your right. reputation and credibility in today's counts. Okay, so I've got that you don't know me. You don't know me, you know my name, but you don't know me. I've also made it clear that I want something from you. If I say to you, I need a tip. 10 bucks. But before we discuss that I want to talk to you about you're going to know straight off the bat I need 10 bucks. So I like to get it out of the way that hey, I need something from you. I've got something I want us to do. But before we get into that, and then you go into the reason why you need to keep me in the conversation because I'm here to benefit you. If you go in with that, they know you need something. Why do they know that? Because you told him quite bluntly, I need something. So there's no, there's no sitting there going, what is this guy after? I've just told you I want something. And she allows the person and relaxes easy-going, Oh, well, he wants somebody to bang on a minute. He's bringing something to me first. And that is a good one to get out of it. So that's how I enter into every conversation, whether it be dealing with the Vatican, whether it be dealing with Richard Branson, I always say hey, I need something but before we get into that, I know you're doing XYZ and go into that route. I love that I love this to me. It's a simple four-step process.Making every conversation intro sample where you're building rapport credibility, and you're building that now. Don't fall on yours. And don't, don't be scared to fall on your face say get as big of the nose as possible. But on the other hand, do your research, right everythingis important.Yeah, every client that I meet with, I have them send out a fill out a form where I get all their social media links so that when I'm sitting down with them, before I meet with them, then I know what things we have in common, what things I can support them with and what things I can't, the things that I can't support them with, I'm probably not going to bring up in our conversation, because that would be like shooting yourself in the foot. To understand who you're talking to understand where you can add value. Don't take on somebody that you can't add value to just because you want to be around them. Be clear and make connections where possible. And too many people want to be the everyman everything guy It's just not. You're not supposed to be the everything guy. You're supposed to be good at what you do. Oh for me, you know, I've got a brilliant gardener that I speak to absolutely every single week about my garden, but I'm not going to have him do my taxes. It's not a problem to turn around and think this person is good for that, but not good for that. Yeah, exactly. I love it. So what would you say? When did you because I know it's a journey. And we kind of talked about this, but what was there an exact moment where the light bulb clicked. You're like, Man, this is what I want my legacy to be.Oh, I don't know if I even know what my legacy to be. And I have heard I've heard that question come up a few times before but I'm kind of in the fight and on the journey and enjoying the view. And I haven't. I have some very basic principles. I want to be crystal clear. I want to be in possible to be misunderstood. And I don't want people to be confused. Now, if that ends up being my legacy or ends up being sketched on my tombstone, I'm happy about that. But there's a lot of people that plan for things. And for a lot of people, they need to plan. But I plan to seconds after I've jumped off the step, and I find that I only become good when I get going. And everything that I have ever started a shit. I know the first time I do anything, the first time I do an interview, the first time I did a podcast, the first time I wrote a pushbike The first time I tried to do a business meeting, every single one of them was rubbish. But you need that rubbish to be yet golden. And I have learned that so if I wake up one morning and go, I'm going to do a podcast I'll do a podcast. It'll have a crappy already. We do have a bad signal, it has a terrible microphone. Everything I try I try differently. And so legacy wise, I don't know if I found my thing yet. I just know what I found is an elf. And I'm going to promote a good friend of mine called Joe polish. He openly talks about elf businesses easy, lucrative and fun. And if what you do can be those three things, those three things, keep doing it. I have had lucrative businesses. I've had lucrative projects, but they've been stressful and they ain't been fun. They made me a lot of money and I bought a new motorbike and I've had great fun doing about great finances doing them, but they ain't been fun. So I now try to find elf projects and elf businesses. And I would say now for the past three or four years with my brand coming out of bluefish did I'm in an elf momentum at the moment and I'm enjoying it. Where is it going? I don't know. But as long as itself I'm stayingwith it. Awesome. I love that I never heard that acronym but I think I will start asking myself what in my life is falls in that category? And what is health? Yeah, that stuff that doesn't for sure.Absolutely. Joe polish. You said some very intelligent things. He's also said some very stupid things because he's a weird individual. But yeah, he's given me some incredible nuggets which have helped my life.That's awesome. So now if you were to say there was like one story or one point in time where you decided to stop caring about naysayers? What was that one, that one moment where you're like, Okay, I just, I just don't care? Or I'm doing my thing.I listened to the worst person in the world and that was myself. And I went through a very, very dark month. My life I had been I was about eight years into being the man that can about eight years, I had some of the richest clients royalty caps in the industry, you know real power players around the world as clients send me hundreds of thousands of dollars so I just a night out or weekend away. And I woke up one day and I thought to myself, Oh my god, you know, I've got to change. I don't know why, but I just thought I had to. So I took all my earrings out and I covered my tattoos by wearing long shirts and you know, I thought to myself, Oh, I have to be a bit more pronounced. Now. I have to be a little bit more British. You know, just everything about me changed. I started wearing suits now anyone that knows me knows I'm on two wheels forever. And I bought a car. I bought a vintage Ferrari to try and impress you. I bought a $50,000 odham up watch. I went to Donna Monaco, and I throw a kickoff party in my suit with my Ferrari with my watch. And I came home, and I got the photographs of that event. And I realized this was the first event in my life that I hadn't shown up to this avatar of who I wanted to be had this pretend Steve Sims. And it depressed me and I got drunk and I was drunk for about three days. I didn't know what had happened and I realized that I had listened to all my subconscious all my inadequacies, all of my self-doubt. And I had become this shield, this persona, this alters ego. And luckily it was my wife that said, Look, people don't buy the suit and the car they've been buying this you for years, they've been sending you money as this quirky guy, the comm spell and anyone that's ever got an email from me knows I can't spell but it didn't stop me write a book. Don't focus on your inadequacies. Don't focus on your weaknesses. Because you end up with incredibly focused, targeted weaknesses. They don't get any better focus on your unicorn. So I realized that I sold the car immediately. I got rid of the suits. Funnily enough, this was in the late 90s. I wanted to keep the suits because they were nice suits. I put them in my cupboard. And it was about three years ago in Los Angeles, I gave them away to goodwill, and I'd never worn them. never worn them since that day, because I felt they were toxic. No, I like putting on a nice suit. But it was never those suits. He ended up going and buying different suits. So that was my dark time when I listened to my doubt, and my inadequacies, and since then it's a case of Hey, this is me. Now I've got an I know you're in Utah, but as far as La is concerned, it's a bit chilly and I've got off No shirt on, but there's a black t-shirt underneath and that's where I'm showing up as me every single day. If you don't like it, we can part ways and we'll all be fine but I am never going to use a single second of effort to be somebody I'm notso that was my tongue fineyeah i think that's often the hardest person to get hundred silence right you can get to the point where you tell everybody else to go screw themselves but being able to tell yourself to go screw yourself as you talk and lean into your uncertainties lean into your your your fears and you say look, I'm going for it regardless that sometimes it's the hardest thing to master as far as like financially going from the different areas. I mean, going from a bar bouncer having lost your job in different areas. How did you spend, how did you make that transition from from employment into employer or entrepreneur financially because I mean, you alluded to this to at the beginning where you're rich, you're broke, you're rich, you're broke, you're rich, broke, broke, broke, broke, broke rich. Like I understand that happens. And I think that's one of the bigger fears of people who are thinking about making the jump. And so how did you level that? How do you handle it with your wife? I don't know if you have kids, but like, how did you make that? an okay thing for them.I have to stop my bank account from becoming my barometer to react. And it took many years, but the thing that would happen was I would have a ton of cash in the bank, and I'd be like, oh, I don't need a try. I got loads of money. And the money goes quickly, especially when you've got a nice house and you know, you got payments and I do have kids, I have private schooling and before you know it that starts whittling down fast. And then you go crap, I got no money, and then you go and get into stressful deals and projects that you shouldn't have got into but you have done now because of the checkbook. So you're going from candlelight, you know, fire to beach fire to the beach. And it's, it's bad. And as I say, I was using my bank account to dictate me. And it was the tail that wags the dog. The smartest thing that happened to me was when I suddenly started realizing that I was pathetic at certain things, and an entrepreneur wants to be great at everything. The Smart entrepreneur realizes, you know, we're not, we're great at one or two things, but the rest of it, we may be adequate, or maybe really bad at, okay. So as an entrepreneur, I realized that my wife was detail-oriented, she would come to me and she'd be like, Well, look, I've looked at the spreadsheet, and I'm like, Well, I don't want to look at spreadsheets was the bottom line. Because that's how I vision things. So then we realized that I can steer the car, you know, I can be the big powerful engine that can make it go fast. But I need other people to help me. I need a good set of tires, I need a good set of brakes. I need a good steamer, you know, and I suddenly started finding those people. And I can go, Hey, we need to send this person a great brochure. Get someone to design the brochure, hey, record what you think will be great. And then get someone to write the copy to translate your vision into what someone else can meet. So, Claire, my wife became good at managing and handling me. And she was like, what, okay, and so what we came up with, we came up with the 10 grand credit card. Okay, which started in my late 30s, maybe 39. Oh, yeah, realtor. I hadn't quite hit 40 at the time. But she said, okay, you're gonna have three credit cards, because no matter where you travel in the world, Sometimes, you know, something can happen to a credit card, and it screws and or, you know, they try to send you a verification code. But of course, you're in a foreign country, so you're not getting it, you know. So we have three credit cards. And she said each one of those credit cards has got 10 grand because no matter where you are on a planet, if you've got 10 grand, you can get a couple of hotel nights and you can get a flight out of it. Or you can pay a hospital bill, you know, 10 grand is a great instant support number. Okay, so she said you got three credit cards for 10 grand,you add a bank account, and she kicked me out of the bank account, I could not go and see how much money I had in there. Now, this is what happens. You stop reacting to your tail. You start looking at someone and going okay, is this a project I want to accept? Is this a client I want to be doing and in focusing on the client and not focusing on the checkbook. You get to accept deals that make sense and don't motivate your bottom line. You start we at you reacting with your stomach in your head and not with your with the fear of how much money's in the bank. You take better deals. And when you take those better deals, you start solving the problems that the client has. And then he starts reaffirming the knock-on effect by stop looking at the bank account was monumental to me. And my wife would just say to me, oh, how's it going? What's your pipeline? Like? And she would talk to me in my language, you know, are you busy at the moment? Well, things are starting to get you to get a bit quiet. Oh, well, maybe there are some opportunities for you to use that time, which was code for the bank account that needs replenishing. But she wouldn't tell me that because then I don't get the wrong kind of deals. So a good entrepreneur needs good support around them. If you are good at designing things but crapper doing invoices and the first time I realized how bad I was at doing an invoice was when I undercharged someone by 10 grand. And I had to pay 10 grand for that trip. Okay, now, do I go to the client and go, Oh, I made a mistake? No, I just paid 10 grand to learn the course, that I should never do invoicing again. And that was the last time I ever did an invoice. I've never done an invoice soon. I have no idea how to get into QuickBooks. I still don't know the potent passcode to get into my bank account. I don't need to it's not what I specialize that it's not my unicorn.Oh, that's so cool. I've talked to one other person who was very similar. He did door to door sales. And he just said Look, when when I decided that I want to stop looking at my bank account and just as long as I'm making more transactions or whatever, I'm helping more people than everybody else. I know I'm making more than anybody else. And that's got to be enough. So Yeah, there's value in that for sure. So how could we if we wanted to get connected with you, or if we had a business that we want to do to help us with? How would we get in touch with you? How do we get in touch with your, your, your book? Your Sam, sorry, your sim distillery, how do we get in touch with some of these tools to help usgrow? What we did an online course that should give you the basics called Simmons distillery.com. There's one aim in Sims. Sims distillery.com is my 16 part course that hopefully will help you get the first steps if you don't want to jump into their bluefish in the art of making things happen, should give you permission to fail and dream bigger. If you want to get hold of me. I'm not hard. I'm at Steve de sims.com. But you can also find me on Instagram, Facebook, all of these places. We've even got a free Facebook community called an entrepreneur's advantage with Steve Sims. So there are loads of ways you can reach out to me if you feel as though you want me to answer help with your company. That's nice. But I would suggest you go through those other ways. First you look at the book, do that do your homework first, you may find by doing that, you actually discover other questions that you would have come up with other you come up with, you wouldn't come up with a view to jumped into me straight away, and I want you to be as productive, productive and as powerful as possible. So it's usually best to get the book, get the seems to Sylvie? And then can I get used to my mentality, you may find, I'm not your best choice, I may not be the best person and only you are going to decide that but you're not going to know they should go through the first steps.That is so true. I'm redoing a training system for a lot of my business partners and our leaders. We're talking about what should be in there. It's like it's all in there. If they come and ask me a question before they've done their research or something and I don't even know what they don't know. But I do know what I've already put out there so they haven't taken it down. of the free content that's already there. I like there's not a lot we can do for them. And so I love that you said it that way. Agree, go do those, those things that he's already prepared for you and if you like him, then reach out and get and get to know him a little bit better. So we're at the pretty much at the end here, but I have two more sections here. So the last one is a legacy on rap. Sorry, the first one is a legacy on rapid-fire. So I'm gonna ask you five questions, looking for one sentence answers to go through these and just kind of fast, fast fast. Are you ready for this?I'm ready.Okay. So what do you believe is holding you back from reaching the next level of your legacy today?dream bigger, but I never want to stop dreaming people hold themselves by not dreaming big enough. And as far as I'm concerned, the bigger the dream, the bigger the achievement.Agree. Awesome. So what next one is what is the hardest thing you've ever accomplished?What the story I told you getting over me You can be your biggest advocate you can be your biggest success your biggest asset but sometimes you can be your, your largest devil and your biggest delta. So try and kick that little monkey off your shoulder.Awesome. And then what do you think your greatest success to this point in your life has been?No carry? I have no care about you laughing at me when I fall over. Just stick around to see me get up again.Amen to that. And what would you say is one secret the wave has contributed most to your success.My dad is probably one of the biggest on educated men on the planet. big thick Irish bricklayer fella. And I remember as a kid, he put his hand on my shoulder one day, for no reason wasn't even looking at me. We were just walking down the street. And he said to me, son, no one ever drowned by falling in the water. They drowned by staying there. Now at the age of 14, I thought I'd swallow the fortune cookie or something I couldn't understand where the bloody hell this came from. But you know that is often stuck with me and now and then I fall over quite often and I go, right. It's my decision whether when I stay here and drown, or I get up so I would give him that credit.Awesome. And what are two or three books that you'd recommend to the fuel your legacy audienceblue fishing, the art of making things happen by me Steve Sims obvious one, Dr. Zeus because I find that they got a lot of stuff in there that people don't realize how powerful anything by Jay Abraham because all of his methodology and style, critique sales techniques from the 80s are actually more powerful and impactful today. And if I can give you the fourth one, anything that allows you to dream, anything that's kind of like science fiction, espionage, spy novels, john Grisham, anything that makes you kind of dream in your head That's good because the difference between us an AI is AI can't dream, create an action act, it can only deliver what you asked for. So start meeting things that make you dream and take you to a world beyond your imagination.That's so interesting. I've never heard anybody put it that way, the difference between us and AI because that's a, if you don't follow the technology that's coming up quick, big difference, like AI is going to be able to replace a large percentage of what humans are currently doing. And the question is, but what do we do with all that free time as you're right asked you an It looks like you have a little bit of free time. What are you going to do with that? And that's a real question to be asked. Millions of people are being put out of jobs daily, across the world because of artificial intelligence or some form of robotics. And if you're not thinking how can I then go create more value for the world and give back then you're going to be sitting there doing nothing? pretty quick.A great, greatyeah. So here's the last one. Question. It's my favorite question. I excited to hear your answer. I don't know what it's going to be. But we're going to pretend that you've died that you're dead. Okay. 210 But okay, no, no, it's 200 years from now, six generations from now. So your great, great, great, great, great-grandchildren are sitting around a table, and you have the opportunity to kind of listen in to the conversation that they're having about you, your life and your legacy. What would you want your great great great, great-grandchildren to be saying about you? 200 years from now.He lived by his standards and not others.Simple as that simple as that.And it doesn't need to be any more complicated. I love it. Thank you so much for your time, Steve. I'm just grateful and honored to have you here on the show. And if there's ever anything I can return the favor to you. I'd love to do so. Thanks. And love to if you ever back in Utah. I love to meet up with you.Hold to a panel. Thank you.Yep, no problem. We'll catch you guys next time on fuel your legacy.Thanks for joining us. What you heard today resonates with you please like, comment and share on social media tag me and if you do give me a shout out I'll give you a shout out on the next episode. Thanks to all those who've left a review. It helps spread the message of what it takes to build a legacy that lasts and we'll catch you next time on fuel your legacy.Connect more with your host Samuel Knickerbocker at:https://www.facebook.com/ssknickerbocker/?ref=profile_intro_cardhttps://www.instagram.com/ssknickerbocker/https://howmoneyworks.com/samuelknickerbockerIf this resonates with you and you would like to learn more please LIKE, COMMENT, & SHARE————————————————————————————————————Click The Link Bellow To Join My Legacy Builders Mastermindhttps://www.facebook.com/groups/254031831967014/Click here to check out my webinar as well!————————————————————————————————————Want to regain your financial confidence and begin building your legacy?In this ebook you will learn:- The 9 Pillars To Build A Legacy- Clarify you “why”- Create Daily Action Steps To Launch ForwardWant Sam’s FREE E-BOOK?Claim your access here! >>> Fuel Your Legacy: The 9 Pillars To Build A Legacy————————————————————————————————————

The Gremlins take a trip to the far east and discuss the Tokyo Auto Salon...It's like SEMA...but Japanese...So Yeah, It's pretty cool!

Join Becky and Matthew as they turn their attention to musicals - both the broadway kind and the movie musical kind.  One is from the golden age of Broadway.  The other is from a little know movie opera from 2008.  Both deserve to be skewered.   What the Lyrics? Musicals [Start 00:00:00]   Becky: Hey, guys, just a quick note. When we went to record this, I left my headphones at home so I couldn't hear the funky noises that were happening when I was banging on the table during this discussion because I was so excited and heated about this discussion of musical songs. I apologize for that. Hopefully doesn't interfere with you loving the episode and liking us a million times and telling your friends about how awesome we are. With that said, I hope you enjoy it, and next time I will remember my headphones.   Music playing [00:00:38-00:00:45]   Becky: Welcome to What the Lyric? The podcast that confirms, yeah, that actually made it to radio. Welcome to Episode 3 of What the Lyric? Today we are talking musicals. How are you doing Matt?   Matthew: I am doing pretty well considering how much research I had to do into bad musicals, of which there are many.   Becky: There are a lot and a lot have made money, which is the part that I don't quite get. I am not sure how they made money because they were so bad.   Matthew: Agreed, and I took a broad stance on the definition of musicals. So thinking more along the lines of not just Broadway musicals, but off Broadway and basically movie musicals.   Becky: It was the movie ones that I was kind of like, do I go Disney? Because Disney has some crap lyrics, or I could go to all the stuff, we did when I was in high school. What did we do? We did Grease, but we had to change the lyrics on some of the stuff because it was too racy.   Matthew: Such as?     Becky: In one of the songs about him meeting. It was some weird slang for condom, but we could use it. Matthew: Was it rubber?   Becky: It was not using. I don't think it was. I would have to look it up but I think it was rubber. I feel like it was something like balloon or something. But you knew what it was when he was thinking about it. So we had to kind of do like the radio edit and go [sound 00:2:30] or something in it so that you filled in the blank.   Matthew: Which teenager does not know about condoms?   Becky: Oh my god. It was in the 1990s.   Matthew: Oh, they really did not know about condom.     Becky: 1991, so we should have. I mean it was all coming up then so we should have left it in there but no.   Matthew: I mean our high school did Wizard of Oz. That is very wholesome to an extent considering the fans, I don’t know, destruction.   Becky: Yeah. The Wizard of Oz. What else do we do? Of course, there is always music Man Fiddler on the Roof.   Matthew: South Pacific.   Becky: You guys had some serious production.   Matthew: I did not say it was good.   Becky: High school musicals are very rarely good. I mean, let us be realistic on that one. I went back to my high school musical roots for mine.   Matthew: I think that is a perfect segue way into me asking   Becky: Okay.   Matthew: Where did you go?   Becky: All right.   Matthew: Take us back.   Becky: We are going back to and in the movie sung by Buddy Hackett, who I remember from when I was younger and he was an older man who I have this vague recollection of him being like a dirty old man kind of guy.   Matthew: I mean he was way. Wait, when was this made?   Becky: 60-65, let us say. I want to say 65. No, Sorry. Well, the musical was 57; 62 was the movie.   Matthew: That was a generation of dirty old men.   Becky: Yeah, yeah. Also covered by the Family Guy and several other outlets. I am just in a dive right into it. You ready?   Matthew: I don't believe so, but I'm willing to listen.   Becky: I think this first group, set it up nicely. Well, a woman who will kiss you on the very first date is usually a hussy and a woman who will kiss you on the second time out is anything but fussy. But a woman who will wait till the third time around. Head in the cloud, feet on the ground. She is your girl. You are glad you found. She is your shipoopi, shipoopi, shipoopi. The girl who is hard to get shipoopi, shipoopi. shipoopi, but you can winner yet. Mm hmm. That is shipoopi from the Music Man.   Matthew: Wow.   Becky: The whole thing is yet again a me-too movement in song form.   Matthew: Do we have any historical context for, is shipoopi slang for anything. Do we..   Becky: I don't think so. When I was doing the research for this. I just typed in worst song in a musical ever, and it brought up like some sort of forum for Broadway musicals. And everybody was writing these dissertations and one person just wrote shipoopi. And that's really all you need because shipoopi, I mean you can't say without giggling either, before, after, during and it shipoopi. What is that?   Matthew: And they don't explain it? That is why I love that. He does not need to explain it. He is just like.   Becky: No.   Matthew: So she is playing hard to get or presumably saying no. But it was like men who are super into...   Becky: My guess is she probably hates this guy. Thinks he is a total dill hole, but yet he just keeps breaking her down by saying shipoopi in front of her. Like a playground thing. He just keeps calling her shipoopi. And eventually she breaks out and goes, okay, I guess that's the guy.   Matthew: That is the guy from me. You know, I was not going to have sex with him the first day. Then he said shipoopi about 17 more times.   Becky: You know when I met your father.   Matthew: [Laughing] he had cutest name for me.   Becky: All he said was shipoopi. He did not say anything. He just said shipoopi over and over and over again. And we thought he had been dropped on his head, but apparently not. And that's when I fell in love.   Matthew: I knew he was the one.   Becky: By the third day of shipoopi. That is when I knew.   Matthew: Wait. What is the bumper sticker slogan that is like? Sorry, like not having to say sorry.   Becky: Oh, I cannot. Yeah, I know the one you are talking about.   Matthew: I think it is from a movie. Something means not having to say you are sorry.   Becky: Yeah, shipoopi mean.   Becky and Matthew: Not having to say that you are sorry.   Becky: I'm going to just start filling in shipoopi when I can't remember the words, which is a lot of times now that we've found out we have Alzheimer's and dementia in the family. So now, all of us are forgetting everything. So we are just going to be like, you know, that time shipoopi, you know? Right. shipoopi and see, who knows. But yeah, I mean and it continues on in the kind of abusive way with squeezer once when she isn't looking.   Matthew: Who!   Becky: Who does that?   Matthew: Apparently Buddy Hackett.   Becky: I like if you get a squeeze back that is fancy cooking. I don't know anyone, any woman who would get squeezed and be like oh, oh well hello. Then squeeze back and mean it.   Matthew: It brings up a very viable point. Of where on the spectrum of being touched does being slapped follow like is it technically a squeeze?   Becky: It could be. Or she might have just grabbed him by his junk and was like, never do that again, if you want to keep this and then he said once more for a pepper upper, she'll never get sore on her way to supper. So all this is happening, I presumably on the first date?   Matthew: No, because then she will be a hussy. So would it be…?   Becky: Well, no. If you kissed her on the first date, is she is usually a hussy.   Matthew: I see.   Becky: The second date it is your borderline because a woman who you kiss the second time out is anything but fussy. She is, you know, almost out to pasture. Then the third time around, that is the gal.   Matthew: Okay, got you.   Becky: If on the third day you squeeze her and she squeezes you back, home run.   Matthew: Fancy cooking.   Becky: Yeah, It is fancy cooking and a home run. Then once more up for a pepper upper. If you do it again and she is game, then you have just won the World Series, I guess.   Matthew: Marry this woman.   Becky: Yeah. Yeah. I cannot even.   Matthew: I feel like this song is a good example of like, is it bad lyrics? Because in the 50s and 60s, you had no way of just saying like, oh, we are banging on the bathroom floor.   Becky: Yeah. I mean.   Matthew: There is a lot of euphemisms for sex here. Fancy Cook and Pepper upper.   Becky: Well, pepper upper. I think drugs. I think we are looking for like an upper. Like maybe, a little ecstasy or I don't know, special k. Do kids still do that? Is that even a drugs?   Matthew: I think I am sure. I am a square, you are talking to the wrong person. I am impressed. I am assuming that most of these are euphemisms for sex.   Becky: I don't know. I should have asked my mother and father and be like, hey, when you guys were kids and talking about slang for sex. Did you ever go shipoopi or fancy cooking or pepper upper?   Matthew: Actually, there is still time. So like the follow up to this episode will be the [Inaudible 00:10:37]   Becky: I will call my parents after this.   Matthew: We will record it.   Becky: Quick question. It would not be any worse than, some of the questions my mom woken me up with her asking to, tell her what some slang means because somebody's at work, young kids that work mentioned and she didn't want to seem like she was not cool.   Matthew: Uncool.   Becky: Yeah. Tea bagging was one of them.   Matthew: Perfect. Never forget where you were. The moment your mom asks you.   Becky: No, I was not. I will not. I just gotten to work. And my mom called and she said, hey, look, I got a question for you, can you. What is tea bagging? I just walked in the door. Can I call you back after I call my therapist and get some coffee? And apparently it was during the whole like…   Matthew: Tea Party moment?   Becky: Tea Party stuff. And mom, they were joking. It said something about Tea Bagging and I had to explain tea bagging. It went downhill from there. Years of therapy for that one.   Matthew: That is fancy cooking.   Becky: And a pepper upper in the morning if you have to answer that question, yeah.   Matthew: To say the least.   Becky: [Laughing] you have no idea. I was like I'm sorry, what now? did you just ask me. I got to go. I need to call my therapist. And I’m actually my therapist right now, and the siren. Oh, Seattle full moon weekend. You are the best.   Matthew: I should have curse a lot more. Just so, we can edit it out.   Becky: I know, oh well. All right. So Matt, what did you go with?   Matthew: Since we will be releasing the other music episode, we did.   Becky: Yes.   Matthew: This is actually a redo by my request. Upon reflection, realized that I feel like I had not done my due diligence. Right. Because the purpose of this podcast is to find bad lyrics and call them out as they happen, even in songs that we love. Upon reflection, I realize that rent, the reason why I called out rent the way I did is because I fucking hate that musical.   Becky: The musicals is awful.   Matthew: The lyrics were not necessarily the problem. The content of the entire musical is what really bothered me.   Becky: Yeah. That is a whole other episode. Like we could take down the entire musical in one episode. Maybe that would be a probably a two-parter.   Matthew: Yes just for me.   Becky: There is an intermission in that play.   Matthew: Forty-five minutes of me bitching about this movie because of how much, I fucking hate rent.   Becky: Yeah.   Matthew: But I was like, you know the lyrics were not necessarily bad. I just hated the content. So then, I dug deep and ended up watching a movie musical from 2008.   Becky: 2008.   Matthew: The two biggest names would have been Paris Hilton, and Sarah Brightman.   Becky: what?   Matthew: Who famously.   Becky: Was married. To Andrew Lloyd Webber.   Matthew: The best play write of a generation.   Becky: I dislike that guy and all, he's written so much. I cannot. I just cannot. I cannot.   Matthew: Surprisingly, though, he did not write. It feels like this would have been something he wrote.   Becky: Paris Hilton and Sarah Brightman.   Matthew: I think they were the two biggest names. Also, the guy who played well, he was on Buffy. I think he was British.   Becky: Oh, yeah. Who then married…   Matthew: Giles.   Becky: Yeah. Who then married one of the other characters in that.   Matthew: Did not realize that.   Becky: Yeah.   Matthew: But he is in this movie as well. I ended up watching.   Becky: 2008.   Matthew: Eleven years ago.   Becky: God. Okay, 2008. I don't even know what happened in 2008.   Matthew: Financial crisis.   Becky: Okay.   Matthew: Well actually, that could play into this story.   Becky: Please tell me, they did a musical, The Wolf of Wall Street.   Matthew: I think that on is still in the works.   Becky: probably. What the hell?   Matthew: I don't really have any hints, but I will say that it is. Repo, the genetic opera, which if you have heard of or have not heard of, rather, is a movie musical from 2008. The overall plot of which is that everyone is getting cancer. Everyone is dying in this dystopian land. As they are dying, there is this one capitalistic company that says, oh, well, we have organs essentially for rent. We will give you these organs to keep you alive. But if you miss any payments, the repo man will come take the organ and you will die.   Becky: This feel like that Tom Cruise movie. What was that one? Similar? I don't know if it was similar. It is probably not, I just see Tom Cruise and then I go to my happy place because I cannot stand him either. Oh, well that is gone now. I have to look at.   Matthew: I feel like…   Becky: It is shipoopi. It is shipoopi.   Mathew: Tom Cruise in shipoopi.   Becky: I would see that. Actually, that would be something I would see.   Matthew: His voice undoubtedly is terrible.   Becky: That laugh, I needed that laugh.   Matthew: That is the overall plot of it. There are a lot of twists and turns in it. It is a real weird movie musical. I am not sure if I recommend it, but I do recommend watching it just so that you get context for how bad the song is. One of the main characters is a girl who is told that she has this terrible condition. She basically can't go outside.   Becky: Oh, my God. Like bubble boy?   Matthew: Exactly. Spoiler alert. Full spoiler alert. It is not real. Her dad was just like I told you that so you wouldn't leave an entry this like dystopian land, whatever. But the entire movie is incredibly angst. The main character, this little girl named Shiloh is 16. Then she celebrates her 17th birthday and she has a song about turning 17. That, is the song that I have picked. It is called 17 and I chose it. Not only because of how terrible the lyrics are, but also it is precisely a Goth version of 16 going on 17…   Becky: Thank you.                                                                                                           Matthew: From sound of music.   Becky: I was going to ask is it? Please tell me that it has something to do with, I am 16, going on 17. Minority Report was the movie I was thinking.   Matthew: Yeah, okay. I could see that.   Becky: Yeah, sorry.   Matthew: Sound of music. Right. It is super cute. She is falling in love with the Nazi.   Becky: Sad note, I have never seen it.   Matthew: Oh. Spoiler alert. She fall in love with the Nazi.   Becky: Yeah. I have never seen it, but I know it. I know all the lyrics, to that frickin musical as well.   Matthew: She is 16   Matthew and Becky: Going on 17.   Matthew: It gets repeated a lot. It is very cute. I think she is like very excited about that.   Becky: She dating a Nazi, wait.   Matthew: Yes.   Becky: Okay. Yep, there we go.   Matthew: She is dancing on a gazebo with him and she is very happy to turns 17. Shiloh in this movie, however, is very displeased to be 17. And what I will pause it here. Is that Repo the genetic opera for all of the bad lyrics, in fact, actually nails were being 17 is like. Let's take a look at the lyrics.   Becky: The title of the movie makes me think a repo man like an opera of the Repo Man, which would be kind of awesome. I don't know if you can still get Emilio Estevez.   Matthew: Probably not, but this is like a much dumber version of it. I still recommend watching it. Only if you are inebriated in some way, but don’t do drugs kids.   Becky: Yeah, that will be later on today.   Matthew: Yes. Alcohol or weed. That is as strong as my recommendation get.   Becky: That will be today.   Matthew: It is very angst. She cries out 17. Momma drama has to go dad. 17, nothing is going to bring her back. Oh, her mom is dead. Also spoiled alert. Her mom's dad. Hence mama dramas.   Becky: I thought maybe he had a couple of ladies on the side and he didn't know which one was the actual mother of this kid.   Matthew: Oh, no, he is not dating. But the daughter is distraught. Her mom's dead, so 17. Nothing is going to bring her back. 17, experiment with something living. 17, cause I am sweeter than 16.                              Becky: That sounds like dad is hooking up with his daughter.   Matthew: The movie leaves that open. I mean, not really, but there are some weird things happening there.   Becky: Please tell me that this, character's played by Paris Hilton.   Matthew: No, sadly.   Becky: Damn it.   Matthew: But Paris Hilton's character is very on brand…. I will does not spoil that.   Becky: Does she sing?   Matthew:  Not well.   Becky: That is right. She did have an album out.   Matthew: She did. We all know she did not get many after or any Grammys.   Becky: Did she really mean to? She is loaded,   Matthew: Right. That ends up being the chorus. So I will stop yelling 17 at you, but just know that throughout this she got 17. Other choice lyrics, I would say. Again, I feel like this captures my experience being a 17 year old. I have always longed for true affection is one lyric. I am like, okay. Like, that is not a bad lyric.   Becky: No.   Matthew: But the next line after it is. But you compare me to a corpse.   Becky: What?   Matthew: And then the third lyric is Stay with the dead. I'm joining the living cause I'm freer than 16.   Becky: Huh? Okay.   Matthew: Right. It is teenage angst.   Becky: Yeah.   Matthew: Specifically served up in teenage incomprehension.   Becky: Yep.   Matthew: Which I do appreciate. I don't know why 16 is the thing holding her back. Why she needs to be freer than 16. Also, I don't know why she got compared to a corpse.   Becky: Yeah, and I got to say, being 46 now. 16 looks awesome because nobody else is paying my goddamn bills.   Matthew: Doesn't it feel great?   Becky: And like my laundry was getting done? Like, yeah. Food was…   Matthew: Served.   Becky: Yeah.   Matthew: You did not have to cook. You did not have to clean.   Becky: No.   Matthew: Pay bills.   Becky: Nope.   Matthew: did not have to work.   Becky: I just had to be angst, and sit in my room and listen to music.   Matthew: Exactly.   Becky: Yeah.   Matthew: Music like 17 from repo the genetic opera.   Becky: Just like that.   Matthew: So it goes on because there are two more things that I really appreciate about this. Number one; there is a Joan Jett solo in this.   Becky: As in like the real Joan Jett?   Matthew: Yes. She makes an appearance in the movie.   Becky: Wow.   Matthew: Bless you Joan Jett. But you did not need that.   Becky: No, no, no, no, no, no.   Matthew: Joan Jett makes a very strange appearance. But the final lines, I just love because they're terrible. She goes something is changing. I can feel it building suspense. I am 17 now. Why can't you see it? 17 and you cannot stop me. 17 and you won't boss me. You cannot control me, father. Daddy's girl is a fucking monster and that is the end of the song. It is one of these that I am like, I know that they're bad lyrics, but deep down the very small angst part of me as a twenty nine year old is like, yeah, fuck em, fuck parents. Boom make money.   Becky: She is a monster. What? Please tell me. She turns into like some sort of weird. I don't know. I just picture like the Toxic Avenger. But a 16 oh 17 year old girl.   Matthew: Yeah. She is freer. She is sweeter and freer than 16.   Becky: Yeah.   Matthew: She did not turned into a monster. She ends up actually being. Actually, I think it is a very good metaphor for puberty because she is saying all these things in song form.   Becky: Yeah.   Matthew: First of all, you took the time to create a song to convey your angst. That is a very teenage trait.   Becky: Oh, God, yes. Yeah.   Matthew: She does all of this. Then at the end of the movie, it turns out she is a big softie who like as her spoiler alert, dad dies. She is like, I love you, dad. I am sorry I was kind of an asshole. And I forgive you for lying to me about a debilitating condition that led you to lock me up for 16 years.   Becky: Okay, I have never been in that situation before, but clearly, the last time we heard about this, the girl killed her mother, just saying.   Matthew: That is true.   Becky: Yeah. Serving in time.   Matthew: Now, she is locked up in a different way.   Becky: Yeah. You are no longer free. So probably should have just left the house. Yeah. Okay, that is bad. Now I kind of want to see this at the same time.   Matthew: I do recommend it, but not because it is good.   Becky: Where did you see this? How did you see this?   Matthew: If anyone is interested in watching Amazon Prime, it is available. Just watch it.   Becky: Okay. Well, now I know what I am doing this week.   Matthew: Imagine if you really, really overfunded my chemical romance music video,   Becky: Oh God.   Matthew: So that is your aesthetic. Repo the genetic opera is absolutely the movie for you.   Becky: Oh, that is…   Matthew: Paris Hilton. Her best performance, arguably.   Becky: That is just awful. I cannot even like I bought this backpack. Then I realized, oh, my God, I am 46-year-old version of a vsco girl, unintentionally. Now I am, oh I kind of want to return.   Matthew: Wait, a what girl?   Becky: Vsco girl. Apparently, all these Instagram girls, it is a weird of crunchy, granola hippy kind of thing with really expensive accessories. Vsco is like a filter. You can run the photos through. Of course, all these girls do that.  It is like the backpack, like scrunches. Why? Anyone, want to bring that.   Matthew: [Inaudible 00:26:11]   Becky: I cannot even begin crocs in like Birkenstocks. It’s like, can we go in now on both of those? Sorry. No, no, no. No. Can do skis. What was the other thing? Oh, like a puka shell.   Matthew: Oh yeah.   Becky: Necklace kind of thing. I did not buy the $80 backpack. I went for the Chinese knockoff, but it is like that. Eighty-dollar Swedish backpack, which, by the way, somebody told me they got for their daughter. And she's like, and I looked inside. It is made in Vietnam. I was like, way to go, Sweden. Then I thought, well, had I known about that 6 years ago, I would have bought one when I was there. But no, no, no. I was like, oh, I am now this…   Mathew: Vsco girl.   Becky: Forty six year old vsco girl. I will put my hair up in a scrunches. Then there was some other accessories that I was like, Oh, sweet Jesus. There is one clothing company. That only makes one size. And it's like a size Barbie doll. I don't know. It is like a small. Then their clothes are like. It is like some Italian clothing company, Quartz.   Matthew: Yikes.   Becky: Which is funny because all the Italian ladies in my family were not Barbie size. But whatever, probably not their target market, but yeah, so.   Matthew: Wow. I mean, I, for one, am just grateful that I'm neither a vsco girl nor am 17 anymore.   Becky: Oh, thank God. Yeah, I don't even remember what… Oh, I do remember it as doing and it was not good. Properly better, pass that.   Matthew: You could have put all of your angst into a song and you would have felt properly much better.   Becky: I would properly come up with shipoopi though, as opposed to that.   Matthew: I think we both are on par.   Becky: Yeah, we got it.   Matthew: We nailed what being 17 was like in two different decades.   Becky: Shipoopi. Oh, shipoopi. Yeah. All right. Well, I think that probably rounds out the old musicals. Thank God. So coming up next week, or next episode next week, episode, whatever. It all runs together right now.   Matthew: We will release it when we want.   Becky: When we feel like it. No pressure, please. So next time around, we are doing hip-hop.   Matthew: I am excited.   Becky: I had to kind of figure out what the definition really was, because for me, it was just straight up rap. But it's not cause I looked and Drake's in there and post Malone. I don't get that one at all. Beyoncé was in there, and like that's more like R&B stuff to me.   Matthew: Interesting.   Becky: R&B pop.   Matthew: I will be very curious to know what you choose.   Becky: Now, full disclosure, I do love me some Old-School Hip-Hop and by Old School, I mean like 80s. Cause I remember Fab 5 Freddy on MTV, which you have no idea who that is.   Matthew: I sure don’t.   Becky: Yeah, he was in Blondie video and she even mentioned him in it. Old school. I can't remember, I think he was a rapper and M.C. but I can't remember it. Oh my god. My brain is fried and all of my friends who know are yelling right now. But yeah, I remember Fab 5, Freddy and then Yo!, MTV Raps and then it became the two Ed lover and Dr. Dre, but not the Dr. Dre we all know and love today. Yeah, so.   Matthew: This will be good because we are going to be getting that [Inaudible 00:30:14] and then I will be serving my purpose as the millennial on the podcast by bringing us back to 2008.   Becky: Oh, minus.     Matthew: Wow. I just realized I am a 2008 freak.   Becky: Sticking with the year. I don’t even know when mine came out. I want to say it was late 80s, early 90s. So Yeah. All right. Well, that is something to look forward to, and I guess that is the end of this episode. And we will see you next time. When we ask What the Lyric?   [End 00:30:45]  

Jennie Nash, CEO and founder of Author Accelerator, talks about her program for training book coaches to help writers write books worth reading. Kevin and Jennie discuss coaching, as well as Jennie’s new book, Read Books All Day and Get Paid For It: The Business of Book Coaching.TRANSCRIPT AVAILABLELINKS:Website:: jennienash.com, authoraccelerator.comAmazon Author Page:: https://www.amazon.com/Jennie-Nash/e/B001HD414ATwitter Handle:: @jennienashFacebook Page:: @jennienashHow can people join your mailing list?:https://author-accelerator.ck.page/5d4425a182Giveaways, promotions, or special offers:A free week of programming on book coaching starting January 20 https://www.authoraccelerator.com/summitTHIS EPISODE OFTHE WORDSLINGER PODCASTIS SPONSORED BY:DRAFT2DIGITAL: Convert, publish, and distribute your book worldwide, with support the whole way. https://draft2digital.com/wordslingerACORNS: Start an Acorns account today and get FREE MONEY! kevintumlinson.com/acornsTRANSCRIPT:Jennie Nash - Wordslinger PodcastSUMMARY KEYWORDSbook, people, author, helping, writers, coaches, money, offering, writing, pay, calls, accelerator, coaching, business, marketing, viable, expertise, service, ideal reader, agentSPEAKERSJennie Nash, Kevin TumlinsonKevin Tumlinson 00:02Hey, everybody, thanks for tuning in. Now I, here's what's interesting about what I do. I travel, I go to all kinds of conferences all over the world. And I meet some some pretty incredible people, and in particular, I meet a lot of folks who work in some aspect of this industry. And that is what happened with today's guest. I'm talking to Jenny Nash. There's a lot of ways that Jenny and I are connected. But one of the first ways we met was at San Francisco writers conference about two, three years ago. I think. I'm not even sure at this point.Jennie Nash 00:37Yeah, that's right.Kevin Tumlinson 00:38Now, okay, just the official stuff, Jenny, I'll throw it in there. Jenny Nash is the founder and CEO of author accelerator, a company on a mission to train book coaches to help writers write books worth reading. And we're going to be talking to her about that and about her new book, read books all day and get paid for it, the business of book coaching. I'm looking forward to Ironically, we discussed this just before the show, but I've got like back to back, our author consultations all day today. So this is an ironic topic for me to tell people how to make money doing it, that's where I need to start upping my game. like I always do a lot of these for free. So I need to start making some cash on this stuff.Jennie Nash 01:21Oh, let's talk about that. Should we jump right into it?Kevin Tumlinson 01:23Let's jump right in. Welcome to the show. Thank you. Thank you for being a part of the word slinger podcast. So yes, let's jump right in. And how does somebody make money reading books all day?Jennie Nash 01:32So I want to talk about the money because I've been a book coach now for about 10 years. And I make multiple six figures as a book coach, and we at author accelerator. We recently did a poll of about 180 people who do this type of work, and I turned out to be one of the top paid people and that's great for me, but what was horrifying was The number of people who are not making very much money at it and the more that you dug into it, the number of people who give their work away for free and here I am talking to such a person.Kevin Tumlinson 02:11I don't give it all away for free, let's just make that clear. But I am obsessed with helping authors succeed and so that sometimes Trumps me charging them for it. I think so.Jennie Nash 02:22Okay, so here's the thing. I'm obsessed with that too. And, and it is such a noble and good thing to be obsessed with because, as you well know, the publishing industry is super fast changing all the time things it's pretty chaotic things come, you know, companies come they go trends come and go. There's, you know, self publishing wasn't even a thing. Basically, when I when I started coaching like it, it everything changes so fast. And that combined with this pervasive myth that writers don't make money writers don't have money to spend to help them. or invest in their careers, this whole starving artist thing this whole, you know, oh, we all just do this for love thing. And it makes me crazy because so many of the myths that I just spun off are not true writers, a lot of writers do make money a lot of publishers and publishing companies and people that are helping writers do make money. It's a big industry of infinite and people were making money it would not, it would not be so right. So I am, I am kind of on a mission to to change this and to help people who help authors with their writing to help coaches, raise the bar, be more professional, ask for what you're worth realize the value of what you're giving. So I want to talk about this all day long.Kevin Tumlinson 03:49Well, you're in luck. We can talk about it for at least 30 minutes. Yeah, no, I, I understand I you know, that's the thing and then the sector of authors I tend to deal with Our incoming. So how do you build a profile? I don't want you to give away the story here. But, you know, how would someone like me who deals with a lot of incoming authors who don't typically have any money? They're not making any money from the books yet. They may have a book yet, right? I'm like where's the starting point of that my my trouble with so I did author coaching for quite a while and charge people money for but I never really managed to make it a viable business because I maybe I was overcharging maybe I was under serving I don't know. So I never, it never took off as a business for me. Now I do it as part of kind of other things.Jennie Nash 04:41Right. Right. So I mean, the way that I like to think about it is is this, the, there's this idea with writers that this sort of lottery idea, like I'm gonna roll the dice, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna get picked and I'm going to get picked either by a publisher, an agent and a publisher, I'm going to get picked by readership out in the universe. And the thing behind that is, is that and then I'll leave my day job, right? And then all I'll get a movie deal with Reese Witherspoon and and then you know, like whatever the thing is that that the get picked mentality. And that mentality is so pervasive that writers think that that, you know, I'm just rolling the dice and and it's like they're holding their breath. They're not thinking of their own book and their own career as a viable business. And part of what I do is to help people change that mindset, like what other industry and what other industry which you bring a product into the world and that product could be anything. It could be a podcast, it could be a service industry, it could be, you know, you're growing firms to sell to people for their Fern gardens. I don't know where that came from, but you No, like whatever business nobody starts a business, thinking, I'm just going to get picked and, and like look out of the despair of my day to day job by by selling this thing to people people don't think like that. But with books, they think like that. So part of the mindset is shift is helping them think, okay, like the one of the first questions that I asked him out there is what is your goal with this book? And if their goal with this book is I want to write something to leave a legacy for my kids. And, you know, I don't care if it sells, I don't care if it gets read beyond that. That person's not going to probably make any money off of their work. Right. But if they most people are not going to say that, by the way, if they say, Well, my goal is, you know, if you really can have an honest conversation with them, they're going to state a goal that has something to do with selling books. And so what I talked to them about is then what do you need to invest in? In order to make that come true in order to have a viable business model? What skills do you need? What support do you need? You know, the business that you're in? One of the businesses you're in isn't helping people actually produce their book, you can actually produce a book and not invest money in that in that production. production costs. So the same should be true with writing the book, how are you going to learn how to write a book? How are you going to get the support, you need to do it? How are you going to decide which publishing path to go on? All of those things are investments in that outcome that they're trying to see? Right? And get people to start thinking about their outcome, then you can start talking about the value that you might add to their process. And then that means you have to be really clear about what value you're adding and what you're actually doing for them. Yeah,Kevin Tumlinson 07:56yeah, yeah. I agree. I agree. One of the one of the things that always nails me is I have all my little excuses lined up and then somebody comes along and pulls that peg and I can't use any of them.Jennie Nash 08:15That's me.Kevin Tumlinson 08:16That's exactly what that's supposed to be right. So what is that what author accelerator is about? Like, tell me about author accelerator?Jennie Nash 08:26Yes. So I have been training book coaches, I've trained more than 50 book coaches. certifying them and part of that process is teaching them how to manage a Writers Project with a project being the book, how to help that writer, raise the bar of that writer, raise their their own writing standards and skills, make a good publishing choice. The author accelerator is all about the development process. So once you get to the point where you're going to produce the book, you Have to go to somebody like draft to digital or some other person that's going to or entity that's going to help you produce the book. We don't do that. But we help people all the way up to that moment. And so I'm training book coaches, to guide writers and to help writers think about how they're going to make money from their book, if they're going to make money for their book, you know, a huge part of what we do is burst people's bubbles. That if how hard it is to make money at a book, you've got to know that in advance and why you're doing it again, back to the goal of that writer and the goal of that book and, and really making a plan for it. And so I'm helping the coaches help the writers think through that process and think through what they're doing. And we're we do that work in the context of helping them with the writing of the book. I I am Market focus by market focus, it's like, okay, who else is writing a book like you for a book, and it's going to be a book of essays. And it's going to be a book of essays about all the bad boyfriends I've ever had. And there have been 23 of them. So there's gonna be 23 chapters about all the bad boyfriends I've ever had. And I'm going to write these essays about that. The first thing I'm going to say is, are you aware that for an unpublished writer with with no platform to bring out a book of essays is The hardest possible thing in the world to sell. That's the first thing that I would say, right? And they would then then they always come back to me and say something like, but Tina Fey did it, or David Sedaris did it. And it's like, well, Yes, that's correct. But let's look at the hurdles that you might have getting to the marketplace with this book. I'm not trying to get them to write something different. I'm not trying to shoot down their dream, I'm trying to be realistic about it. And, and if they say to me, okay, what how can I ship this so that it might be viable for the marketplace, then we might talk about their structure, we might go look at audiences who are buying books like that we might try to find a way to bring that content to life in such a way that it is viable. So that's what I mean by being market focused. And if I'm going to do that, I I've been in the publishing industry for more than 30 years, I've helped a lot of people come to market. I've seen a lot of books, I'm going to charge for my expertise and my time, I'm not going to help that person out of the goodness of my heart, which sounds super cold and calculating now that I'm going to help that person if they're serious about reaching the marketplace, they're going to have to pay me to get my expertise.Kevin Tumlinson 12:21Yeah. And I and again, to draw on your earlier examples. I mean, this is not an unreasonable ask, when it comes to any other business is just for some reason, when it comes to businesses tied to people's dreams. Then all of a sudden, we are cold, heartless, capitalists.Jennie Nash 12:42Right. And that's the thing that makes me crazy. And I mean, the other thing it makes me crazy is there are a lot of people out there who are preying on authors, dreams and desires. It's easy to do because you tell an author, I can I can help you publish this book. I am We could do it in 90 days, you could be a best seller on Amazon. And they are all like, here's my money. Right? Well, you know, guess what, I just published a book, my own self. And I put it on Amazon and I literally did nothing, literally nothing other than hit the button. And it came up as the number one new release best seller in whatever category literally not one book sale. And I am I got that little Amazon bestseller flag and the people who are are selling that, like, we have a strategy for your book becoming a best seller on release day and we'll help you with this strategy. And we'll put you through these paces and people pay money for that because they don't know any better. And that makes me crazy, too. So Yeah, same here. There's people that prey on authors desires and dreams and, and I don't think it's right and fair. And so a lot of what I'm trying to do is tell them the truth. This is going to be long. It's going to be hard. And guess what? You're going to have to pay money. Let's talk about what you're going to have to pay to bring this book into the world. And do you want to do that? Right? Yeah.Kevin Tumlinson 14:11It's interesting, because I talked to people about this, this concept all the time in these coaching sessions, by the way, the very same ideas, because there is a hesitation among authors to do things like market themselves. Right? And, you know, it's the exact same idea. You know, I've, I wish I could remember the exact quote, I had a guest on the show, several years, a few years ago now, who said that if you are building something that can help people, then it is your responsibility to to market it and in this case, to charge for the service? Like that's part of the responsibility because that's how you continue to keep being able to offer that. Right.Jennie Nash 14:57Exactly. And, you know, you mentioned other things Jeez, like if I I mean, here's a perfect example. I'm in my car brand new, by the way, three days old. My car was hit the other day somebody backed into the rumor. I was at a standstill back to the road sucks. So hard. So what do I do? I call my insurance. I get a tow truck. The tow truck guy drives into place. Do I have to pay the tow truck guy? Yes. Because he's, he's saving my bacon from it was raining the cars in the middle of the intersection. So of course, I'm going to pay the tow truck guy. And you know, then we take it to the body shop. You know, it's going to be $4,000 to fix the thing. Like all of those. Those things are things that I need. They're solving a pain point of mine and you don't question for three seconds that you're going to pay that fee because it's you have this point of pain. I can't drive my car. My car's been So we pay when we have points of pain and writers have points of pain, they don't know things, you know things you've been in this you're inside this industry, you know exactly how it works, you hone your skills and your expertise, they come to you the reason you're having these calls is because they need your expertise and they have a pain they want to solve. And so that's how I start trying to talk to my coaches is what particular pain Are you trying to help this writer solve? Is it is it deciding on a publishing path? Is it making decisions about your investment towards that is it that the writing is not strong enough and needs to get better? Is it that you're getting rejected all the time out in the marketplace? And you don't know why is it that your covers bad, you know, there's a lot of pain points along the path and if somebody is helping a writer solve those, the that Pain. They're adding value and should be paid for it just like the total.Kevin Tumlinson 17:04No, no, you're you're right, I think is a kind of a supply and demand kind of thing. You know, you can, it's easier to charge someone when they're kind of over a barrel on that tow truck driver, you need this vehicle towed. Now we both know you're going to pay me a little differentJennie Nash 17:22thing. That's what's interesting is one of the things that I guide people to do is to choose what pain point they're going to specialize in as a coach, where are they going to help people and, and how are they going to frame that help? Because the writers are going to actually feel the same way as I did with my broken car. You know, if the writers got a book that they're dying to get into the world, they're going to feel that same pain and, you know, we talked at the beginning about how confusing this industry is, if you're outside of it, you know, how do you know what to do? How do you how do you know what to pay? How You know, there's a lot of confusion. So you didn't ask, but if you were to ask me how to convert these calls into paying into paying customers, I would think of these consultation calls as, okay, you're helping them for 30 minutes or an hour or whatever you're offering them and help them with some of their questions. I would think of them as consultation calls to a service. So it's like, this is the way that I could help you. This is how the decision that is in front of you, I'm seeing that you have these choices, and I can help you walk you through those choices and make a good choice. And then I can help you, whatever the next step of the process is. And if you're interested in that, I have a service that we could talk about, you're signing up for. It would be you can still help people out of the goodness of your heart. I do that all day long as well. But, you know, like, the other day, I was talking to a woman Who writes a column for Forbes? magazine, and she wants to write a book. It's her second book. And she she was trying to make a decision about agent or not agent on this on the second book and, and I got on the phone with her and, and had an hour long conversation, I was sending her links I was sending her, you know, information, I was talking about money, I was talking about what it takes to find an agent, how much it would cost her to work on a nonfiction book proposal with somebody like me how much time it would take, I was feeding her information, I was helping her. And it was all in insert in it that my intention was well, this is probably going to shock you but the the service that I would have worked with her on is a $24,000 service. And that would be for a serious professional to get a nonfiction proposal that hopefully will get them a book deal. Yeah. She turned out she she did not take it, she did not go for it. She decided that she didn't want to go for the agent route she that was not for her. She was horrified at the pros and cons when I laid them out of agent versus not agent. she opted out of the service that I was offering. So I spent it an hour using my best brain work to help her to help her decide not to use me. In my mind, that was a good use of time. I helped somebody I helped her come to a good decision. I did good in the world. You know, I did not get the $24,000 client. But guess what next time I might or next time I might and so you know, I think you can combine the helpfulness with the money part.Kevin Tumlinson 20:50I think in scenarios like that, you could take that conversation, boil it down to the points that were made. And then you can Create something that could simultaneously educate incoming authors who might have the same question and help you nurture mailing list for example so hundred percent right you could totally turn that into a top of funnel offerJennie Nash 21:15100% and and I have so much free content I have so much amazing resources on on my website people are welcome to come you probably do too. You know, it's it's that push and pull between offering something but not offering everything. Yeah. And I think you're right we we tend in these realms that are about creative pursuits, we tend to diminish the, the value of the expertise and I want to change that.Kevin Tumlinson 21:47Yeah, same here. Actually, personally.Jennie Nash 21:53Here's what I do with those calls. Just flip your mindset. Just think this is a consultation call personally. That I could offer. I'm going to help them on this call. I'm going to I'm going to be generous and helpful. And I'm going to, instead of giving all the answers away, think more in terms of framing the questions they have to ask. There's questions that you need to answer. Here's the decisions you have to make. Here's a way that I could help you if you wanted to sign up for that service.Kevin Tumlinson 22:24Yeah. So does does your program I mean, speaking of markets, does your program kind of arm authors that are the coaches rather with how they would market the service how they reach these authors and you?Jennie Nash 22:39Yes, yes, I do. And I studied on my own personally, a lot of marketing people and and tried to adapt the the best practices for book coaching in in my new book, which is called read books all day and get paid for it. Go way into the marketing. And I've had a couple of other top coaches reviewing the book. That's all happening right now because because it's just come out and I had somebody say to me, Jenny's advice on marketing was so spot on. And it made me laugh out loud. So I'm not going to tell you what that is, you'll have to read the book toKevin Tumlinson 23:21see how this works.Jennie Nash 23:24I totally help people do it. And here's, here's the key thing. It's not what you probably think it is. It's not take out an ad on this website or go to this conference and print out a bunch of swag or, you know, it's not that really what it amounts to is knowing what you're offering and who you're offering it for. Right. I'm going to totally botch how he says it but Seth Godin and his new book, this is marketing says something along the lines of marketing is about doing something That matters for people who care. That's, that's what I help people do is what are you doing that matters? And who's going to care about that. So if you're somebody who's helping people, at the very beginning of their book idea, going from idea to getting it on the page and helping them frame that the structure of their book, you could specialize in that point in the process and do really well because you'd become known for that part of the process. You could become someone who specializes. I have a coach who wants to specialize in helping lawyers who want to write fiction. There's a lot of lawyers who want to write fiction. Yes, yes. What a cool nice, right. Yeah. To be able to speak to a lawyer to be able to help them translate the way lawyers think and speak and write which is a very particular way to to fiction writing. I have somebody else who wants to help women in speculative fiction, because it's mostly a male dominated genre. So they want to focus on helping women get into speculative fiction. So if you focus on who you're helping, so doing Oh, I think we might have froze. Yeah,Kevin Tumlinson 25:33we froze. But we're gonna, can you hear me now? Yes. Okay, we're gonna we're gonna muddle through.Jennie Nash 25:40So they say that again.Kevin Tumlinson 25:42Yeah, you were to you're just introducing us to the idea of the woman who was helping other women who are speculative fiction, and go, Okay,Jennie Nash 25:51okay. I have another coach who's specializing in helping women break into this big speculative fiction genre because it's very male dominated, and her expertise is going to be that. So if she becomes known for that, everybody's going to send those writers to her because that's her. She's helping those people with that particular pain point. So that's what marketing in terms of book coaching is all about is becoming known for doing something really well, that helps people at a place where they really need help.Kevin Tumlinson 26:24I think you just hit on something that has always nagged at me, by the way, because there is whenever I have offered author coaching, now, right now, I'm doing it through DVD, you know, we do our consultations, little free consultations, and it's, it's meant to help the people who showed up at our webinars and stuff, so I can't charge folks for that. And I'm not trying to, but when I've tried to add this in the past, there is always that problem of, you know, focus, right. And there's that aphorism that if everyone's your customer, no one's your customer. Yeah, I think what you're saying here is that there's an opportunity if you are willing to focus on a specific aspect of this. So for me, I might I might coach, people in writing thrillers, because that's what I write, or I might coach them in, right in using, you know, I might pick something out there, right? Yeah, just the process of writing. I could do all that. But it's too broad too general. And that's probably one of the reasons why it never quite worked. I wasn't advertising or I wasn't marketing, specifically enough.Jennie Nash 27:30Right. So you, you can't make a business on even what you just said. I'm going to help people writing thrillers. Well, what people what kind of thrillers At what point in the process? Have they written a book before? Are they writing their second book? Are they writing a series or do they have a plan to write a book a year like you've got to really narrow down on what writer where they are in the process what they need? Are you helping somebody right faster? Are you helping them right? Like plot out faster. Are you helping them plot better? Are you helping them raise up their writing skills? Are you helping them? Like what exactly are you doing? So there's so many layers to figure out and, and just helping. So if you're on a consulting call with someone, and I'm sure you've been on a million of these calls, people are asking questions about all over the map, right? marketing, about social media about my website about my book cover about the production about the time about the cost about the writing itself about this and that, like that's just scattershot. Yeah, advice, but if you're honing down to really say, I can have your thriller writer, writing your first book, you've never done it before, and you need to make X, Y and Z choices. I can help you do that efficiently, effectively. And, you know, to help you toward your goal. Now I thought a viable business. Yeah, well,Kevin Tumlinson 28:56that that is the ideal reader. concept. That's the ideal reader ideal customer concept. And I'm shocked that I never put it together.Jennie Nash 29:10One thing because it's what book coaches help writers do, like if I'm working with somebody right now who's writing middle grade fiction, and she's actually a very successful nonfiction writer. And one of the things that I've become known for is helping successful nonfiction writers who want to switch over to not true. I helped her write the book that got the six figure deal for her first novel, excellent. And so I kind of have a specialty in that regard, and I'm helping a woman writing a middle grade story and she She had her story was a hot mess. Okay, so she came to me with a manuscript that just was all over the place. And it had all these characters and all these ideas and all these themes and all this stuff. And you know, it's not going to work. And so part of what I did with her was exactly what we're talking about. Who do you want to reach? Who's your ideal reader? Can't it's not enough to say an 11 year old girl, it's like, an 11 year old girl who reads what and who does what and who's thinking about what and who cares about what and we've really got to hone down on who that 11 year old reader is and what she cares about and what she needs in that book. Otherwise, that book is not going to work. So I, I do this with the writer, and we need to do this with the people helping the writers to is, you know, what are what is your gig? What are you doing to help people? Yeah.Kevin Tumlinson 30:53And as That's it, what's funny is here's what you always come back to their sort of universal pieces of advice. that fit no matter what industry you're in. If you're an author, it's no matter what genre you're in. That's this seems to be one of those pieces is to identify the specific reader slash customer you're trying to reach. We are we're at time. So which is unfortunate, because I'm enjoying this quite a bit. And I'm getting a lot out of it personally. Those are always the toughest interviews to end. But I appreciate why don't you back on Now, before I before we drop out of here, I did want to say you have coming up January 20 2020. You have a summit coming up. You want to talk about that for just a second.Jennie Nash 31:43I would love to I'm doing a free week of programming about becoming a book coach and I've got 15 killer experts who we have conversations and take you through everything from how to market how to make money, what book coaching really is how it works. And that you can find all the information at author accelerator.com slash summit. So that's author accelerator, comm slash summit. And it's free. It's a week, it's January 20 2020. And I would love to have people come. And if you can't make it, we'll be sending out those recordings so you can grab them after the fact. Very good.Kevin Tumlinson 32:25Very cool. All right. I am I think I've signed I think I managed to sign up. So I'm going to check that out and everyone listening to the sound of my voice, you should also check that out. Thank you so much, Jay, for being on. I really appreciate all the wisdom you've dropped on us.Jennie Nash 32:44Thanks for having me. All right, everybody. Right now.Kevin Tumlinson 32:47You are probably hearing the groovy bridge music and you may dance and place it will and stick around for whatever I'm going to say whatever pithy fun thing I'm sure I came up with Right after this interview and I'll see you all on the other side

SO YEAH!IT'S SUNDAY AGAINN....EVER WONDERED HOW EVERYTHING JUST WORKS OUT FOR YOU?WHY GOD'S GRACE IS JUST AMAZING!!! PLEASE LISTEN TO THIS EPISODE! HAPPY SUNDAY GUYS!!!

Angie: Hello and welcome to Warrior DIVAS Real Talk for Real Women. This is your host Angie Leigh Monroe reminding you each and every day to be a DIVA and make an impact. For those of you that are new to our show, DIVAS stands for women that are Destined, Inspired, Victorious, Accountable and building a Sisterhood, and make a positive impact in the world we live in. And we are so excited today because we are launching a new part of our podcast. We've been doing our podcast, little snippets, 30 minutes snippets with just me on doing teaching topics, and we have got our first guest in the studio today. But before I get started, I want to remind you, we have our DIVAS Impact magazine, we have the conference, it's on the back of the magazine, coming up soon. And you can find out all about that at DIVASImpact.com, but today I want to give you a little bit of introduction into Trasa Cobern. She is a local gal here in the Dallas Fort Worth area. But I've known about her, known of her, more through her husband than anything else over the last few years. met, I met her I think in 2011 2012, somewhere around there, when she was student teaching my son at the local high school, which I'm an alumni of bout to have our class reunion. And I started just being intrigued by her, the kids love her. That's one thing if somebody if kids love you, that's one thing. But the other part of it too is she's got such a passion for our troops. She's got a passion for our country, she's got a passion for her community. And when I talked to people on DIVAS, they often asked me about what can they get involved in? How can they make a difference? How can they make an impact? and I often tell them politics. Getting to know what's going on in your local community all the way up to the presidency and knowing how to have those conversations and so I've watched her, I don't just put anybody on the show. I don't just introduce people I know anybody to all of you watch her and see what she does. And so when she's not in school, she's been traveling quite a bit. And she's been doing some learning herself and educating herself, improving herself. She's run for city council. She's run for a couple of other positions as well. She serves on the committee here in the Tarrant County for politics. And so when we are talking today, if you're wanting to know how to get involved, this is the woman that can tell you about how to get involved. But my biggest reason for wanting her to go on is she has done everything with grace, she has done everything with talent, with dignity, and a smile on her face. So, this is all about to kick off in a big way. And I want you to welcome with me, Trasa Coburn, Trasa: Thank you, Angie, I am so honored and so touched by all of that, that was just really awesome. I'm gonna I'm gonna, like, take that clip of that podcast and like, you know, keep it on my own personal media so, I can have that if I'm having a bad day. So thank you so much. I am so pleased to be here. Your company, what you guys do with DIVAS impact is exactly what I think is wonderful. For women. I just I'm a huge I was just talking to my son yesterday about how I don't consider myself a feminist I would consider myself maybe a womanist that I think women are so important to our society. And what's good for society is good for women. And what's good for women is good for society. And so what you do is just fantastic. Angie: Thank you so much. Thank you, we tell people all the time, we steer away from the feminist word, because it's gotten such a negative impact. It's part of the reason why we steered towards divas impact is because when you think of a diva, you think of somebody that's, you know all about themselves and all of that. But we want to shift that paradigm, we want to do the same with the feminist movement, we want to help women embrace their femininity and realize how strong and powerful they are within their femininity and not have to be something that they're not. Trasa: Absolutely I was telling my husband, we were coming out of church yesterday, and there was a little girl who had on the little Bobby socks to have the lace trim. And I was telling my husband, I said, you know, when I was a kid, I used to, my mom used to put me in those, I was the firstborn child in the first granddaughter on both sides. And she used to put me in those socks, and I would cut the lace off the socks because I thought that it was so girly and I didn't want to be girly, I wanted to be strong, and I wanted to be you know, independent, and all of these things. And over time, I've learned that, you know, femininity is just another part of who I am. And it's just, you know, filtered into that strength and that, you know, independence. And so, you know, I love to wear dresses, and I love to be you know, girly now, whereas, you know, when I was six, five and six, I didn't like that image at all. So, you know, but we mature and we learn things about ourselves. And so that's I think that's just a wonderful thing to use that femininity and know that we can be strong and feminine. Both. Exactly. So you grew up, you grew up in a couple of different countries. you've traveled around, you've made your way to Texas, of course, you know, we're Texan. So, we love Texas. This is. Absolutely. So, tell us a little bit about things that may be from your youth that kind of you see now led you to where you are today. Oh gosh, I think faith is so important to me and God has led me along my life has prepared me in each step for the step that's coming up. And so sometimes you we don't always see that. And we don't always know where he's leading us. But you know, you'll get 10 years down the road, you're like, oh man, if I hadn't had that experience, like I wouldn't be prepared for this. And I, I was lucky enough to grow up with a dad who was in the military. My dad was a sergeant in the army and we were stationed overseas in Germany three different times. And I was actually born in Germany, spent early elementary there. And then the third time we were there was from the time I was in sixth grade until I graduated from high school and I graduated at a at an American High School overseas. And, and I tell my kids, I teach American history. And so, on the first day of school, I always do a little intro about me and I and I tell the kids I say you know, I'm super passionate about America, America is the best country on the earth. And I can say that with full confidence because I've been to so many other places. And you know, Germany is a wonderful place. I love to go visit there anytime I have the chance to it's a beautiful country. But I would never live in Germany, I would never choose to live there. And I had the choice. You know, when I was 18, I had dual citizenship. And so I had the choice. And I could have stayed and gone to college in Germany. But I came back to college in America and Texas, actually, you know, Texas A&M, took a risk on me and gave me a scholarship there. And that's how I ended up in this state that I'd never lived in before and didn't know anybody. And so took that leap of faith and said, okay, God, I trust you, you know, I'm going to go to this place. And I don't know how I'm gonna like it. And you know, wonderful, wonderful decision turned out great. A&M is a wonderful place and met my husband there. I fell in love with, I fell in love with Texas before I fell in love with my husband, like I was already determined, you know that I was going to stay here and then met my husband. And so that's how we ended up in the Dallas Fort Worth area. He's a Hurst boy. And so yeah, we ended up in Hurst and you know, I've planted my roots deep here. Angie: So, so whenever you left and came back to the state sudden came to Texas and all that stuff, do you feel that being in the military, as a military dependent, really kind of helped you be able to move in and not… Yes, it's scary. I'm not gonna say it's not scary, but gave you a little more freedom. Because sometimes we get a little too sheltered, Trasa: right. And I think it's human nature to like where we are to be comfortable in our little circles. But being a military brat has really just benefited me in so many ways. I used to be very introverted, I used to be very concerned about, you know, what people like me when, you know, how would I project myself, and being in the military, having that atmosphere where people were constantly moving in and out of my life, gave me much more freedom to understand that, you know, like, like, I'm going to be who I am. And then the people around me may shift, the environment may shift, but I'm who I am in me. And so absolutely, when I moved to Texas, you know, I was I was scared, I was a little worried. But I knew that God had me and that it was going to be a good situation. And that, if not, we would move to something else. Right. Angie: So. So I mentioned that you were a city council member for the city of Hurst. And you started, I don't know, when you started getting into politics? Trasa: Um, so I have four boys, and I have a degree in political science. That's what I majored in, in college. So, I've always been interested in politics and government and those things. But when we moved here, we had the boys and so I was Mom, you know, I was full time mom. And I didn't do a lot outside of the house, I did PTA and that kind of thing with their schools. But I was really focused on my son's, I started about 2013, I started being, you know, kind of looking a little bit outside, that's after I'd started teaching full time. And my kids at school challenged me one time and said, Well, what do you do other than vote? Like you talk about being involved in the political process? What do you do? You know, exactly, they have no filter, and they'll and they'll challenge you. And so, I was like, Oh, well, let me I need to be involved, I need to do more. And I really love where we live. And so, I had, and I strongly encourage everybody to do this, if you are interested in your local community, go down to City Hall, ask them if they have citizen boards and commissions, right, because most cities do. And so all you have to do is fill out a little application, it takes you maybe two, three minutes to fill out the application and turn it in, most of the cities have it online where you can just fill it out online, and you don't even have to go to City Hall. And so, but back in 2013, it was all you know, paper based. So, you know, filled it out, mailed it in, and then they called me for an interview, and I went down and interviewed for a board was appointed to a board called the neighborhood Community Advisory Committee. And it was a really great experience, just got to hear some inside stuff about Hurst got to know kind of what was happening. There was a city council member who was a liaison on our committee, so got to know her. And so that's how I got my first taste of, you know, what it meant to be really involved, right. And then I loved it. And then from there, I went to the library board, which is, you know, kind of a bigger board and more and more involved. And then the city council member who was on my first board actually came to me and said, I'm retiring, will you run for my spot? And so, it was the fact that I was already involved, that made that connection. And so it's all about, it's about who you know, but it's also about how you know them too. It's a it's majorly about showing up. So, if you're not in the system, then people don't know you. They're not aware of your strengths. They're not aware if you're capable. And there are lots of people who just show up and say, I'm going to run for city council, and they've never been involved in the city before. And the voters generally tend to not like those people, right? Because they're like you didn't do your homework, you know, you haven't been involved. You're your Johnny, come lately. Where have you been? Angie: I think I think we talked about that one time before is there's people that show up, even for the school boards, then they may be involved a little bit on their PTA level, they may be involved as a room mom or something like that. But they're not showing up to school board meetings. They're not showing up to these big things that are important. I heard somebody not too long ago, was standing in a board in a meeting room with the school superintendent, and went up and introduced herself to him like she didn't know who he was, but she was running for the school board. Yeah. And I'm like, wait a minute, you know, this, this is not something that's okay with most. Right, you know, we want to make sure that the board members, Yes, we want them to be able to not be Yes, men and women, but we want them to know what's going on and know how they would shift things in a positive direction before they ever get there. Trasa: Well, and we like people who I do anyway, I like people who've done their homework, who show me that they're willing to put the time in right to know the situation, know who the important people are, who the important issues, what the important issues are, so that they can actually have a grasp on it. Because if you just show up and say I want to run for city council, because I want to be a city council person, you know, like, Where's your investment there? Right? What are your issues? What are your problems? Why, why are you doing this? So? Yeah, I say, you know, show up? Absolutely. Angie: Well, we, my husband and I also own a plumbing company here in the state of Texas in this last legislative session in the state of Texas was a bit tumultuous for us. We went under a review, we had some challenges, there was a march on to the Texas steps. And I'm just going to tell you that it was an interesting experience. I've never done that before. I've never been a part of that before. But it was very interesting to be there, and kind of be part of the democratic process in a way. Yes, the governor had signed something, extending it two days before, but letting your collective voices be heard over something. So, I guess the other part is, is there's a lot that we did staying home with our kids during times where maybe we felt like some women out there today that our voice can't be heard our voice isn't this. But when we join our voices with other people, Trasa: Right. Angie: That how we make our big powerful state. Absolutely. Trasa: That's such a, I'm a huge proponent of the First Amendment and its freedom of speech and freedom to assemble is such an important thing. And you know, people think a lot about, you know, the big protests and the things, you know, the Women's March and the, you know, a million man march and those things, but those, those are just kind of the culmination of so much else that's happened for people to speak up and speak out. And I just think I was in Philadelphia this summer. And I saw a protest from a group that I don't agree with politically, right. But I took a picture of it and put it on my social media, I said, I don't agree with their message, but I will fight to the death for their right to stand here in front of Independence Hall and have their protest, because I think that that is one of the reasons that we are so free in this country is that you know, and I try to tell my kids at school, I'm like, you know, when they'll say, Well, you know, America is not that great. And I'll say, you really don't know, like there are other places in the world, even places that are democratic, you know, nominally democratic, that people don't have the right to get in a group. People don't have the right to send letters. People don't have the right to speak out. And you know, that is such a marvelous gift to us. And the First Amendment, you know, the, the Constitution just protects us so much, and the kids don't know it. But a lot of adults don't know it either. And that's a shame. Angie: Well, was Philadelphia, where you were learning about the Medal of Honor. Yes, yes. That was a great article that you wrote it on. Trasa: The Fox. Yeah, I actually had to I had one on the Dallas Morning News. And then I had one, right, Fox News right online. Angie: And so I thought that was great. And I'd love for you to share a little bit about your experience there. Trasa: Okay, so the Medal of Honor Grove is a place that is in Valley Forge, Pennsylvania, and the group that maintains it is called the freedoms foundation. And it was basically created by President Eisenhower and a bunch of notables back in the 50s. to, you know, have a place where these men and women honored and so the grove is this marvelous, like three acre site, and it's just got trails, walking trails, and then every state has an obelisk that has the names of every one of their Medal of Honor recipients on the obelisk, like engraved, or else a plaque on it. And I was walking around the first morning, I got there. There are I we'd gotten there the night before. And so, the first morning, we didn't really have time built into the schedule for our class to go walk the grove. And so, I got up at six o'clock that morning and went and walked the grove. And it was such a powerful experience to me being the daughter of a serviceman and seeing these names of men and there's one woman who basically gave everything, you know? and some of them were awarded quite a few of them are awarded posthumously. So the majority of these people died doing what they got honored for. And so it's just marvelous. And then we have the chance to meet Jim McLennan who is one of the newest Medal of Honor recipients. He earned his medal of honor in Vietnam. He did not receive it until 2017. He was the first one, also honored by President Trump. And he in the interim, he was a teacher and a coach for 39 years. And so he was a marvelous person and marvelous representative to meet. And he talked about how, you know, talk about involvement, talked about, you know, loving your fellow man talked about being a teacher and a coach, and how, you know, that's equally as hard, as you know, as earning the Medal of Honor. Right. So really just a powerful experience. And so that's what I wrote about in those two articles. The first one is me walking the grove, and just talking about what that meant to me. And then the second one was talking about, you know, how I kind of expected to really meet superheroes when I went to this conference. And you think of Medal of Honor recipients as being people who've done this, you know, amazing, you know, save people's lives, and they've done things that are superhuman, and they are there, they're marvelous, and I'm not denigrating what they do at all. But what was so remarkable to me was the fact that they are ordinary people who do extraordinary things. And one of the Medal of Honor recipients actually has said, and I think it's, I think it's Patrick Baka actually said, “Every person has within them the capacity to do extraordinary things.” And I think that's so much more powerful than saying, these guys are superhuman, and I can't be like that, right? It's more powerful to say, guess what, I can do this too. You know? Angie: I think it's interesting, because a lot of the Medal of Honor people, they went through boot camp, they went through special training, they went through all these things. But they also brought the things from them that were ingrained from their families, from their livelihood, before all of that. And there's that part in the movie, the blind, The Blind Side, where he puts his arm up in front of the little boy, because he's got this innate ability to protect, right, he you know, and so many of our Medal of Honor people are, like many others, that are our police officers, our firefighters are our other first responders that they have that innate ability built into them. But there's a bunch of us out there that have never been any of that, right. And we have it as well, you know, call it the mama bear syndrome, whatever it is, but we will, we will fight to the death for what we stand for, and what we are our true to. And I get I get interested in looking at some of these Medal of Honor winners that go, I just showed up for my job that day, and instinct kicked in, they knew that they were willing to risk their life in that moment to save the 10 guys behind that right or the other guy beside them, or whatever it was, they made a split second decision, because of everything from birth till then that had been ingrained in them Trasa: Absolutely, that is so true. And I love that picture of just it being so selfless. It's just the ultimate selflessness to me. Yeah. And some of us, you know, are never going to be in that situation, I'm never going to be in a firefight where I have to save people's lives. It's just, you know, our chances are pretty good that I won't be right. But every day, we make choices in our lives that do protect other people in that help other people and you know, are kind to other people. And so other people make those exceptional choices to they may just not be in such a dramatic fashion. Angie: Exactly. So I was talking to somebody the other day, and they were talking ugly about somebody and and, you know, I used to be one of those the girls that could pile on with everybody else. And I've gotten to where I push back now, I'm like, Well, how do you know they weren't having a bad day today? How do you know in this one snapshot that you had with them that you just didn't miss set them up for being in a worse place than a better place about piling on them? And so those are those actionable moments that instincts, we can choose to be life givers instead of life suckers. Trasa: Yes. So true. It's a you know, and that's one of the things that the one of the reasons I teach is because the kids I teach, I choose to teach in a majority minority area, and, you know, could teach anywhere I wanted to, and I teach in this school and in this district, because that's where I want to teach. And one of the things I always keep in mind is, I don't know what happened to that kid from the time they left school yesterday, till this morning, but they're going to see a smile on my face, they're going to see that I care about them, because I don't know what battle they're fighting. And I don't want them to have anything added to it from me, like I want to take somebody that some of that pressure and some of that burden off of them. You know, if I can now they may be you know, perfectly fine and have a great day. But then you're not going to hurt anything by smiling at them and being nice to them. But you're going to make a difference to some of those kids who may not see another smile on another face, you know. And so that that is just it's I view teaching as a mission field. Angie: Exactly. Well, and you talked about the Medal of Honor winner that was a teacher and a coach for 30 years before he was given the Medal of Honor. He showed up to work every day. He was a he was there. He was present, he was doing every day stuff just like he did right before that magical moment in his life, no matter how that turned. He showed up every day he interacted with those kids every day. Now. Did he share anything about how things shifted for him once he got the Medal of Honor? Did people talk to him differently, treat them differently? Trasa: Um, I don't know that he really shared that he focused more on the fact that he felt that his impact as a teacher and a coach over those 39 years had been so much greater than that one moment in his life in Vietnam, the one day, you know, and he's still very close with his buddies from Vietnam. But he says, you know, he had 10,000 students go through his class, and he's like, you know, those 10,000 students, like I meant something to them and that's way more impactful than what I did for these, you know, eight guys. And so that was really just powerful. I thought, you know, that he had focused on that. And it was just interesting, because, you know, if he had gotten that Medal of Honor, back in 1969, you know, how would that have changed his life? Would that have made a difference in the way he approached people in the way he, you know, in the way he approached other people, or the way they approached him, would it have changed things this man, as opposed to him just live in his life, and then getting this, you know, great honor later on in life. And so that was neat. Angie: So, I want to I want to flip the script on you just a little bit. Okay. And you can say, with how deep you want to go in this conversation or not, but there were some people in your family that became quite well known. Trasa: Right? Angie: And did that have a positive or a negative or a little bit of both impact on on y'all? Trasa: Oh, wow. Um, it's had both it's definitely had both. It's overwhelmingly been positive. I mean, so my family my dad is, is Silas Robertson, and most of the world knows him. His uncle Si, Uncle Si. And, and I always have to explain that because like, my dad is Uncle sy. He's somebody else's uncle, but he's my dad. And so you know, and the funny thing is, I show my kids at school, I always tell them the first day who I am because my the first year that my dad and the family became famous, he came to visit my school. And I had him just visit with the faculty. I didn't think anything about the kids, you know, because I didn't think that they even know who he was. And they got mad at me later, they were like, how dare you not tell us who the you know who you are and who your family is? Like, why didn't you bring him to see us? And so, I always tell the kids now I'm always like, Okay, this is my family. And I just want you to know, and the kids always are so funny, you know, they'll come back the next day and go, I googled you and you're famous. Like, no, I'm not famous, but I do know some famous people. But it's been, it's been overwhelmingly positive. We've gotten to do some really cool things with them. We got to go on a cruise, we've never been on a cruise and they took the whole family on a duck dynasty cruise. And so that was cool. We've gotten to go, you know, to some fun things. We've been on the show, you know, we might my whole family, we were on a show for season five finale when Mia was about to have her surgery. And so, we've gotten to do some really cool things that a lot of people don't have the opportunity to do. It has been a little negative in some senses. Like, when I was running for city council, I approached a door, and I knocked on the door and the people came to the door. And when they saw who I was, they turned their back to me and closed the door. And I just thought and it was because and they said something about my family. And so I knew it was because of my family. And it was kind of after Phil had had his altercation with GQ. And there had been some negative press about our family. And so, and so yeah, so they didn't want to talk to me because my family was. So, we've had a couple of run ins like that. And there was the funniest one that I just still think it's hysterical is my husband was working the polls for me last year when I was running for tax assessor. And he struck up a conversation with a lady and she said, Well, I don't think that Miss Coburn can be very smart. And he said, Why do you think that? like this is a woman who's you know, had a full academic scholarship to college, she's smart. And and he said, she she looked at him and she said, Well, she's relative to that Duck Dynasty family. And they're all just rednecks. And I just don't think they're very smart. And he just laughed, he just said, he had to take a step back and go, you know, most of Trasa’s, cousins have master's degrees. Most of them are very well educated, just because they have long beards and long hair doesn't make them not smart. But this lady was just fully determined that my family was not very intelligent. And so, I just laugh about that. I just think it's really funny that you know, that even in the world we live in where we don't always jump to conclusions, there are still some conclusions that people jump to just on just based on appearance. Angie: Well, and I think that's one of the other things when we're talking about politics, people automatically jump to a conclusion because of something was presented on social media, or a commercial that came out or, you know, I think it was earlier this year, there was a commercial that came out and everybody was upset about it. Talking about men, and it was I can't even remember the commercial that was out. But I watched the commercial. I'm like, Well, I'm not offended by it. My husband, I'm like, are you offended by it? Because but everybody's making these commentaries and several of them were saying, I've haven't watched the commercial but and I'm like,… Trasa: That is a huge thing right now is social media is people you know, you put a you put a link to a story. And it has a headline, and the majority of the people who post on my social media Don't, don't read the story. They just read the headline, and they respond to the headline, it's like guys, come on, you gotta look a little deeper. Everything is not a sound bite. And that's what we're kind of in the soundbite world where everything has to be a little you know, 32nd sound bite, and you can't get the full story about someone in a 32nd sound bite? You can't Angie: You can't. What was it? I think it was 2013 when they had the march for life on the Texas steps. And I was on vacation at that time, up in Arkansas. I had my old blog up at the time. And I had written an article about the balance of life and death while I was on vacation. And I wrote it from a very personal sense. There are people out there that are going to be angry on both sides. I knew that when I wrote it. I also knew that the very first comment I got that was going to be a hate comment. I was gonna stand up and dance because I was stirring something. Right? Didn't matter if I was if they were completely wrong, completely, right, whatever. I was stirring something. But the very first comment I got back with somebody that's going well, if you were a female, you would know this. And you obviously you've never been raped and you know listed off these different things that were in the article about my sexual assault about being a female about, right, but they don't like it. They didn't read it. They just saw pro life and decided to attack. And it's the same thing for our pro life followers too. If you're hearing the pro choices out there Planned Parenthood's out there. You need to educate yourself apps you need to know what you're against my friend Connie is the CEO of life choices pregnancy crisis, Pregnancy Resources Center up in Decatur, she had an event this weekend, they had the rally for life event. And she's got a half a million dollar budget to battle against a county that has what a $31 million budget for Planned Parenthood. You. It's kind of David and Goliath on that. So, there are issues that you're going to take up and you're going to want to defend and you're going to want to do and you're going to be the David in it. It may be the plumbing bar, it may be prolife, it may be gun control, it may be whatever that is you may be on the positive side on one and on the negative side for another but, How do you find those places to find your voice and find ways to connect? I know you went to an event recently with I've been Facebook stalking her. He went recently to any event with a group of senators or Texas senators or something like that. What was it last week? Trasa: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, I was at a republican Women's Club, the where a where a representative was speaking. Right. And yeah, so there were a lot of candidates and people who are, you know, currently in political jobs who want to keep their political jobs. So, they're running for next year, right, you know, years primary already. And you know, the thing is, I would strongly recommend that if you want to get involved, you know, at your city, I've already explained that. But if you want to get involved in the community, that's, you know, a little bit larger if you want to get involved in pro life issues, or if you want to get involved in something you're passionate about; first of all figure out what you're passionate about, figure out what your issue or issues are. Prolife is a huge one for me. I am I actually just attended an event yesterday that was at the courtroom where Roe v. Wade was decided in Dallas, right before it went to the Supreme Court, you know, it was decided, and they decided to overturn the law that banned abortion. And so, we had a prolife event in that courtroom, which was really just amazing. It was just really powerful to be in that place. And kind of be fighting about it, fighting against it, and kind of, you know, flipping the script on what had happened there. But so find out what your issue is. And then you know, you can if your issue aligns with a political party, then you can absolutely contact the party. So I'm involved here in Tarrant County with the Tarrant County GOP, the republican party in Tarrant County, and we have a website, it's you know, TarrantGOP.com And so you can go to it and or it might be.org. Now I have it bookmarked. So, I don't know exactly what it is. Isn't that terrible? That's what happens when we bookmark things, or we have our phones remembering everything for us or smarter than we are. So you can go to that it has a calendar of events. And so and I assume that the Democratic Party in Tarrant County would have a similar thing, I haven't looked at their at their website, but you can go to you can look at the different republican women's clubs, the different republican clubs that are for men and women both. And you can, you know, just go to one that's local to you and just see if you like it, you know, the people are usually really great. You know, you meet some people who are really interesting, in some ways, you know, but you but in any group that's passionate about what they do, you're going to have some people who are all the way across the spectrum. So, you're gonna have people who you jive with people who you don't necessarily would hang out with, you know, outside of this issue, but maybe you align with on this issue. And then some people who you just wouldn't you know, that your personality and their personality don't match. So, you know, you just have to find where you fit, both with the issue and with the people. And so I strongly advise people to be involved in politics, though, because it just does matter. Angie: Right. Trasa: What we do, what our choices are, at the political levels, whichever level who we send to make those decisions, right matters hugely. Angie: Well and I think, I think one of the important things you've shared today is, you were home, you were taking care of your boys, you were finding a new way, as they were growing up, you're finding a new way to get involved with school, your students challenged you, and you found ways to get involved, you didn't jump right in and go, I want to be the mayor, I want to be the governor of texas or I want to be the president of United States, you stepped in you just like you waited into the process. Trasa: Absolutely. And that's I think that's a safer way to do it as well, because the political landscape is so fraught with danger in so many ways, you know, that you don't necessarily know what the people you're talking with believe. And so it's better to go in kind of slow, in my opinion, instead of just jumping straight in and saying, Oh, well, I'm here and this is what I want, you know, you can do that. But then you just have to figure out because you can't make a difference by yourself, right? Like one person is not going to make a difference. But what it what makes a difference is when you find those people who align with you, and then you become a powerful group. And so, and you know, that's what you have to figure out is like, who are my allies, and who are the people who are opposed to us. And I don't use the word enemies, because I think there's too much of that in politics right now, where we like, demonize the other side. And so, I think that's one thing that we really need to pull back from, because I have some dear, dear friends who are very far left of me. But I love them with all my heart, and we can have conversations, and we can agree to disagree. But I would never say that they are evil for what they believe they strongly believe what they believe, because their life experiences have led them to that point. Exactly. You know, and so we can have conversations about it. And I can hope that you know, maybe I'll say something that will shift their perspective on something, and I'm sure that's probably what they think about me as well. But I can love somebody who is different for me politically. And so that's something that I'm seeing right now, that's very concerning is when people say, I don't have any friends who have different political beliefs than I have. I'm like, whoa, hold on a second. First of all, you're not very strong in your own beliefs, right? If you can't face somebody who believes differently than you, like, if you can't have a conversation with somebody who's different, then your beliefs aren't very strongly founded. You know, if I'm a Christian, and I can't have a conversation with an atheist, then I'm not very firmly founded in my faith, you know, and politics are the same way if I can't have a conversation with somebody across the aisle and seek where we do have consensus, you know, where we do agree, then you know, I don't I don't think I'm very firmly founded where I need to be you know, I need to back up and look at my beliefs if I can't talk about it with somebody else. Angie: And I think I think it's also important to know you don't have to get involved in dance with every fight you get involved invited to you know, we have a couple of friends I'm one of those also that has friends on all spectrums, independence, liberals, Republicans, you name it, Whig Party, whatever it is. The we want to be something we don't know what yet party, I have people from all spectrums on my Facebook pages and on my personal page, and they'll post something up there. And occasionally, I'll go in and debunk facts. I'll put facts in there. And depending on how they want to respond to those facts, will normally dictate how long I want to stay in the conversation, because they'll either turn it personal, which if they turn the conversation personal when we're talking about political or social issue, then I'm done because it there, they don't have an argument. They're just looking for something to strike. Trasa: It's ad hominem. Yeah, no. Angie: But if they don't want to see the facts, they want to keep throwing different things out there that are not factual. Again, I don't engage in the conversation. I tell them, let's share where we're getting our data from, and, and go from there. And there have been times that I've dug a little deeper on the other sites issue. And what I've found a lot of times is most of the people I'm arguing with, just want to be heard, Trasa: right? That is so true. It is just goes down to a people issue, we all want to be seen, we want to be heard, we want to be accepted. And if we can find a way to see, hear, and accept people on the on the basic level, we can open up minds and hearts to hear on a deeper level. Absolutely. I think social media is problematic in that sense, because people do just gut react to things and they don't always think it through I have a I have a 24 hour rule on my social media, like, you know, if I need to hide something, I'll hide it, and then I'll come back and respond to it. But I have a 24 hour rule that I'm not going to just post something right away when I see something that is maybe offensive, or that bothers me, you know, I'm not just going to go and type stuff and just, you know, hit send, because that just you're just inflaming. You know, it's just instigating things. And so my husband had the 24 hour rule when he was coaching, that's what he always told his parents, so I took that rule and internalize that. And so he always told parents, you know, he's like, if you have a problem with me, as a coach, take 24 hours, then call me and we'll meet somewhere and talk. And he's like, but we're not talking right after the game. We're not talking right after the practice, you know, wherever you were upset about, like, give yourself a little cooling off time. And like, we'll talk about it rationally as adults later. And that's how I feel about social media is that everybody just wants to, you know, they do want to be heard. And so, they just type real quick, and they hit send. And then later, you're like, Oh, I shouldn't have said that. I don't know. Or you go back and delete it. But people have already seen it, you know. And so, it's just so much better when people when you just take a step back, and I've learned sometimes, sometimes it's I'm a quick responder I liked when somebody emails me, I want to give them a response right away. But I've learned sometimes it's better to just let that email sit, or let that social media post sit. And then somebody will come back and say, you know, I'm sorry, I posted that, let me let me change that or whatever. Or they'll send you an email and say, guess what, I figured it out like, bro, you don't have to respond to it. It's not urgent, you know? So you kind of have to figure out priority wise, is something urgent that I need to respond to it? Or is it just that I have this impulse to respond to it right this second, you know, and so that's, that's, you know, kind of, I've tried to, I've learned over time and in politics that sometimes it's just better not to respond. Angie: Right. Well, in the I got tickled the other day, whenever I saw this bantering going back and forth, back and forth between a person, two people that I know. And it was about women's issues. Now, being in the military growing up as a military brat, there were women in the military, but they weren't as many as there are now. But part of the issue was they were discussing the whole world cup, soccer team and all that stuff. And, and I'm not even gonna step off into that, right, because I do have my opinions about it. But it's not necessarily the women's side opinion is not necessarily the men's side of opinion. It's a, we need to look at it differently than it's being looked at type thing. But I have a bunch of veteran followers as a vet myself, I have several female veterans who follow us and they're going to the VA’S today, and they're being called will win you're dependent card, right? Or they go, it happened to me, I was at the local VFW, Legion, something like that asking for an application for my son, because he's in the army. My husband's already a VFW member up at the Newell, West Virginia where he's from. And so I asked for an application for myself, because I've never been one, I figured I could start getting involved with veterans issues. Did they give you an auxiliary, they gave me an honorary three times? Oh, my goodness, what? Three times they kept giving me anything. So there are some things that as women, we are betting our heads up again. But it's how we handle betting our heads up against things, right, that can make a huge difference. So I just said, nevermind, I'll fill it out online, Trasa: right? Like all Angie: like most women, do. We just handle it ourselves. And the guy kept on what I don't see what the problem is. The problem is, is I served I've got a DD 214. I've got these different things. So how do how have you seen in your political experience? How to shift views, and mindsets in some of the most toughest areas that we have? So maybe you have somebody that has a perspective of how some, this is the way we've always done it? Right? How do you get them to shift that, oh, there's new technology, there's new things, there's all these ways, we don't have to do it that way anymore, we can do it. Trasa: I have a theory that the only thing that changes people's minds, is personal relationships, is the impact that somebody has on you. And the only you can't get online and change anybody's mind on Facebook or on Instagram or on Twitter, you know, you can post all you want on somebody else's page, and they are not going to change their mind, the only thing that's going to change their mind is when they have a personal experience with somebody that actually changes their mind. So, I always figure that it's best to be the person who could be the change. And to do that you have to have a relationship with those people. So, you can't just say, oh, you're an idiot, like I can't talk to you. And you know, unfortunately, you know, when we're dealing with, like the VFW and things, sometimes you're dealing with much older veterans, right, who lived in a time where women were not part of the service and women were not, you know, in their world view as veterans. And so, you know, they're still running into that, you know, they need to, they need to shift their impressions a little bit, what's going to change their mind is when they meet women, veterans, who are wonderful people, and who are strong and who are still feminine, and who are all the things that you know, we want our women veterans to be, that's going to change their impression when they have the time to actually meet those people, and they're not going to meet them, if you had stormed out and said, I'm never going to belong to this VFW, you know, then they're never going to meet you in that social atmosphere where they're like, Whoa, and Angie’s a woman veteran, Wow, she changed my total vision of what women veterans are, is changed, you know, and so I really feel that you've got to keep those avenues, those personal avenues open. Because otherwise, you just you just lose that opportunity. Right. And that's, you know, I see that as far back as a history teacher, you know, I see that with integration of schools, you know, because we were not going to everybody lived in their little bubbles, my kids, you know, I teach at the most diverse High School in Texas, right, it's been named by niche.com, several years running. And so, my kids teaching civil rights to this diverse group of kids, they don't get it, like, it's hard to explain a time when they couldn't be in class together, they don't understand the rationale. And so you kind of have to say, Well, you know, people weren't being necessarily ill intentioned, it's just, you know, I would have lived in a white bubble, you would have lived a little Hispanic bubble, you would live in a little African American bubble, and our bubbles wouldn't have connected. And so I wouldn't have known you, and know what a great person you are right? Without us, you know, forcing the issue. And then without having, you know, a made situation where suddenly black kids and white kids and Hispanic kids could go to school together. And now, I teach at this great High School, where it's so interesting, the kids don't see color, right? And it's fascinating. And you know, my son, my son, his first girlfriend was African American. And he didn't tell us about that. When we were going to meet her. He was telling us all about her. And he never once mentioned her skin color. And so when we met her, we were like, Oh, wow. And we're like, hey, how come you didn't mention that? He goes, Well, because that didn't really matter. Right? It was so awesome, that this generation has gotten so far past that, you know, whereas, you know, when we were growing up, and before, that was such a big issue, you know, and it's kind of how I grew up, because being in the military, it was so integrated. And like my high school was so multicolored, multicultural. And I had people who spoke Spanish as their first language, and French is their first language and, you know, just such a melting pot of people. So, I feel very comfortable with the school I teach at, and so it's marvelous. But that's what that's what changed. people's minds was not the forced Brown, the Board of Education, what changed people's minds was, I'm sitting next to a kid who looks different than me, and guess what, we're both interested in the same things. And we both like the same sports and hey, we're really good people. And I get that person. Angie: Well, I think it's interesting that we have, like you said, the high school is very culturally diverse A few years ago, I think it was 74 different languages spoken there. I don't remember if Trasa: I think it's 75. Now, but yeah, it's pretty close. Angie: It's amazing. But one of the things when I went in the military, we didn't have a well with the high school there. We didn't have as diverse a school at that time. But it was still very diverse. And I had friends of every socio economical group, every social group, Belden campus, every nonsocial group. And when I went in the military, I felt like I was well, well prepared. Absolutely. My son has said that to you know, he says, he feels he can talk to anybody about anything, because he has this this background from what he learned at school. What he also found was some of those other people. And I'm not saying whether it's a skin color, a faith or anything like that. Some of the other people look at him, and they see a straight white guy from Texas, and they can't get past it. Yeah, he's fine. But he they can't get past right. And they can't be friends with him. Because they see that and, and it kind of throws him for a loop. He's like, wait a minute, you know, my mom's had a, like six different countries represented around our dinner table at one night in you can't accept me. Right? Right. So, it's a little bit of a different feel when it comes to that, but I encourage him to embrace those moments, because it tells a little bit more about what some of the things that happened back in the day. And by embracing those moments, he could prevent them from happening in the future, Trasa: and he can be a representative to that person, right? And teach them hey, we can be friends, regardless of that, you know, and, and your judgment might not be correct for, you know, and that's what people, that's what the personal interaction does is it helps people see past that first impression that you Oh, my gosh, you know, like, people look at me, and they just go, Oh, you know, she's like her family. And so some people are, you know, are afraid to, you know, to have a connection with me, because they're, they're afraid that my opinions are the same, or, you know, or not, you know, and so it's really interesting to have that, you know, you have to be an ambassador almost, you know, for you for yourself and just say, you know, look, I'm not I'm not like that it's not what you're imagining, right, that my experience has been, is not true. You know, people always think it's really funny. People always think that, like, I grew up very wealthy, because of my family being so successful now, and we actually had a lady come from WFAA to interview me a couple of years ago. And they drove up to my house and they came in and they go, we thought we were in the wrong neighborhood. And I said, Oh, you did. And she was like, we thought that this is a really like middle class neighborhood. And you would live in like a really fancy house. And you know, your house is lovely, but it's not like it's just on a regular block. And it's just, you know, it's a 2000 square foot house. Angie: Right, you’re approachable Trasa: Yeah, and so she was so but it was so funny, you know, that she thought I was going to live in a mansion, right? Because of who my family was. And I was like, oh, man, you know, it's not who I am, like, you know, even if we had all that money in the bank, which we don't, but I wouldn't live, you know, are in other places. I like where I live, right? Angie: So we're coming to the close to the end of the show. So what are some other things that you would like to share with the audience today about who you are, what you're passionate about, what you would like to challenge the audience to do, any of that stuff? Trasa: Gosh, um so we’ve talked so much, mean, I feel like I've talked a lot about those things. But I am passionate about kids. That is, you know, probably the number one thing I never thought that I would be family oriented. I always thought I'd be a career woman. And family was a far distant second. And God had a total different plan. For me, I was married by the time I was 21. And then had a child by 22. And you know, have four boys and stayed home for 12 years, which was not on my plan whatsoever. So I'm passionate about kids, but I also am passionate about God. He has done marvelous things for me, and I have a great life and a great balance right now. And so, I just I, you know, there were periods in my life where I wrestled with God. And I disagreed. And I thought I had a better plan than he did. And I and it never worked out. And so, he was always right. I mean, teachings, one of those things, I never wanted to be a teacher. And I fought it, and then ended up saying, fine, God, I'm going to do it, but it's going to not work out. And then of course, I love it and I love the kids, and I love what I do. So, I would say, Well, number one, follow what God's plan is for your life. You know, even if you wrestle with a little bit, that's okay. Jacob wrestled with God. And he was still, you know, one of God's favorite people. So you know, God doesn't do, he doesn't demand unquestioning obedience from us, he demands obedience, but you can question all you want along the way, you know, so you may not agree, but he's going to take you where you want to go and whether you know it or not, you know, and then I just, and I'm passionate about public policy, I just think, you know, what we do matters and what our decisions are at the public level matter to our lives. And so I would strongly just encourage people, a couple of things, one, if you're not involved with the educational community, in your area, you know, schools or public places, you can go observe a class, you can go get involved, we have a great program at our school called, called Trojan talk, where we have community mentors come in once a month, and spend time with the same group of kids over the year. And so, you know, we'd love to have people come and join us for that. So if you live in, you know, Hurst, Euless, Bedford, if you want to be part of the Trojan talk community, you know, come see me, email me, we are always looking for people who want to be involved with kids, and you know, and they need good mentors, they need people from outside the school, they look at me, and they say, Oh, she cares about us, but she's a teacher, she has to care about us, you know, they don't realize that I choose to care about them. Yeah, I choose to be a teacher, because I do care about them. But they need outside people for that. The second thing is get involved in your community in some way. You know, it doesn't have to be politics, even. It can be volunteering. I'm a huge advocate for volunteering, there's an organization called six stones in Bedford that I'm on the board of and we haven't we have an actual a back to school event coming up on August 10 that you can volunteer for if you look at six stones.org. And so you know, volunteer, get involved, do something that's outside your little bubble of your house, because you know, and if you're in a position where like, you've got four kids, and they're small, don't feel bad, that you're still in your house in your little bubble, because that's God's plan for you right now I have I have a dear friend who she's always saying, Oh, I wish I could travel like you, I wish I could do the things you're doing. And she's got two little boys who are six and four, and a husband who's National Guard. So, he's gone every other weekend. And I said, Honey, your time will come, now God has you in this place for a reason, you know, you'll have this time to travel and do other things a little bit later. So just kind of be aware of you know where your spot is, and where God's calling you to be. And then get involved as much as you can. Angie: I like that verse from Micah 7:7 that says, I'll wait and hope for my Lord, because I know he sees me. And so in those moments, you know, like your friend right there, and several other women I've been talking to lately is, you may be in that waiting season, and for what you're really hoping to do. But there are so many things that you can do and touch where you're at right now, shaping the young lives of our future generations is one of them. And so, in honor of having you here today and honor of you being a teacher getting ready to go back to school, and all of that stuff, I think you touched on it earlier about being present and being involved. We do a little segment at the end called EVERYDAY DIVAS and, and this week, I'm going to put out Julie Cole as our EVERYDAY DIVA for the week. And the reason I'm doing that is because Julie Cole was some I met when our kids were in high school and she was everywhere. I mean, woman is everywhere. She now serves on the school board for our district. And she just started out being a mom, just serving where there was a need in the school where her kids went to school and being present. And being able to say, Yes, I can do that or She even said no, a lot. But not as often as she said yes, I think I mean, she said no a lot to a lot of great things. Because she knew she was set up for even more things than what she was stepping towards, works a full time job has her kids has her husband, all of that stuff. But she is one of those people that is going to live all along living life day to day every day, not looking for any shout outs, not looking for any praise. But we want to just honor that she not only stepped forward and just saw a need and met it. But she kept moving forward, and she leads our school board very well, and is another mate a great community builder. So today, DIVAS, if you're out there, I want to challenge you to be a community builder, whether it's your community in your home, or it's your community, in your church, your school, whatever that is, we want you to be a community builder. But every day, just remember to make an impact, whether it's big, whether it's small, a positive impact on those that you do, you have a choice as to what battles you engage in. And we're going to keep moving forward. So, thank you so much. Trasa Robertson Coburn, I didn't want to throw that out at the beginning, because I wanted to build up to that. And I wanted people to get to know you for who you are for all of that. Because we shared some amazing things today that really just helped me a lot. I know a friend of mine, this weekend shared something about all the voters in you know, we all vote for the big elections. But we don't always show up for the midterms or the the community elections. And those are where we can really start shifting the paradigm. And eventually, those are the people who got beat up the chain to the big elections. So, I really appreciate your time today. And I look forward to visiting with you. And we're going to have her social media and website and all of that in the comments of the podcast. So be sure to go and like, follow her. Send her comments, tell her how she inspired you today. And I just thank you so much for being here today. Trasa: Thank you so much for having me. Angie: All right.

Ya. Trailer: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=adzYW5DZoWs. So YEAH

A jam packed episode. The first half is focused on the the largest Facebook group known for buying, selling, and trading bourbon and it’s encounter with Facebook staff about rule changes. We cover the news and share the information as it’s presented. In the second half of the show, we are joined by Marianne Eaves as she discusses her departure from Castle & Key and what’s on the horizon for her next adventure. This episode has a little bit of everything. Oh yeah, and a teaser about marijuana with bourbon which you can look forward to hearing more next week. Show Partners: At Barrell Craft Spirits, every batch they produce has a distinct flavor profile. They take pride in blending and preserving spirits for the people who enjoy them the most, you. Find out more at BarrellBourbon.com. Receive $25 off your first order with code "Pursuit" at RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com. Use code "BOB2019" for discounted tickets to Bourbon on the Banks in Frankfort, KY on August 24th. Visit BourbonontheBanks.org. (Offer good through 6/30.) Show Notes: This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about Bottled-In-Bond and Bernie Lubbers. The Next Phase of the Bourbon Secondary Market. Facebook is cracking down. What will be the next iteration of the secondary market? When did you get the news and how did you feel about it? Will this start more segmented smaller groups? Are there any other platforms where the secondary market could exist? How does one have bourbon as a hobby and ensure that he or she is not becoming an alcoholic in the process? Are Sober Bars going to become a thing? What's new with Marianne Eaves? What was the response from other companies to you leaving Castle and Key? Are you interested in other spirits? Have you been trained in other spirits? What's your favorite style of gin? What's next for you? What do you all think about marijuana infused bourbon?   0:00 If by some chance you think that there's some background noise or you think it's being noisy, I'm going to put it on you to hit your mute button. I know last time everybody was talking over top of each other and 0:09 you saying Don't 0:11 talk to me. I don't know what to do. 0:14 The same time. 0:15 Yeah. All right. All at once. 0:20 You're doing now? 0:21 Yeah. Alright, so that didn't work. Well, we'll move on. 0:36 This is Episode 205. of bourbon pursuit. And we only have a little bit of news to go through today because it's the bourbon Community Roundtable, which is all about the news. Of course, the birthday bourbon is out of the gate. It's typically one of the first ones we see and hear about during the fall release season. Well, I guess it's that time because the 2019 edition, the specs have come out and it's going to feature and an 11 year old hundred and five proof expression which is the highest proof to date, a total of 120 barrels, which is still on May 15, 2008, and aged on the second floor of warehouse I master distiller Chris Morris and master taster Jackie's I can who have both been featured on the show previously talking about birthday bourbon selected and proved this year's limited edition, the 2019 old forced to birthday bourbon is going to be offered at an MSRP of 9999. And roughly 13,200 bottles will be available for purchase nationwide. Well, this episode, it's a doozy. The first half of this episode is focused on the largest Facebook site known for buying, selling and trading bourbon. And really, it's kind of a necessary evil because that's how valuations are really how they're created. But this is also a little pretty controversial in the underground sort of bourbon community because people thought there were ulterior motives involved. just want you to know, we try to be respectful and come at this from a very gentle stick approach. We cover the news. And the big news of this week was the letters of the admins that received them from bourbon secondary market, and they got these from Facebook officials. So don't get me wrong. There's still plenty of places on Facebook where you can get your hands on these goods. But this was a very high profile page. So we'll have to wait and see what happens. In the second half of the show. We're joined by Marianne Eaves, as she discusses her departure from castle and key and what's on the horizon for in her next adventure. Like I said, this show has a little bit of everything. Oh yeah. And there's a teaser about marijuana with bourbon at the end, which you can look forward to hearing more about next week. With that, let's hear from our good friend Joe over a barrel bourbon. And then you've got Fred Minnick with the above the char. 2:44 Hi, this is Joe from barrell craft spirits. 2:47 every batch we produce has a distinct flavor profile. We take pride in blending and preserving spirits for the people who enjoy them the most. 2:53 You lift your spirits with barrel bourbon. 2:57 I'm Fred Minnick, and this is above the char. The box came into my office like any other box, the FedEx man dropped it off. I cut it open. I ripped it out and I pulled a bottle out. But the excitement that I felt when I saw the bottle was far different than when I usually get a 90 proof bottle or some new product from one of the big distilleries. This one had etched in the label, bottled in bond. It was Catoctin Creek, a rye whiskey out of Virginia. I said it next to other bottle on the bond whiskeys on my shelf. George decal bite on the bond Tennessee whiskey, dad's hat, bottle and bond Pennsylvania whiskey, tomfoolery bottle and bond Cleveland bourbon. It's made in the Cleveland area. And as I looked at these on my shelf, I couldn't help but feel the pride just overwhelming in my soul. You had bottle and bond from Virginia, Tennessee, Pennsylvania, and Ohio. It was absolutely phenomenal. Especially when you consider that 10 years ago, the bottle and Bond was almost extinct. You really only saw about 15 bottles on the shelf and those were mostly from heaven Hill. But as Bourbons started becoming more popular and as ride became more popular, you had one particular brand ambassador who was going around the world telling people about bottle of Bach. He's covered in tattoos plays bluegrass music wears belt buckles, it can tell you anything you want to know about bourbon history. His name is Bernie Lubbers. He's one of these guys that has the passion of 1000 bourbon reps. And that's because he knows his stuff. But more importantly, he believes it. And it's my opinion, that if it was not for Bernie out there discussing the heritage and importance of bottle and bond whiskey, that we would not be seeing George decal on the shelf or Catoctin creek or dad's hat touting being bottled and bought. If you want to learn about that history, check out his website. He's the whiskey professor. He's got a book, I've written about the history of the bottle and Bond Act of 1897. But really, in today's sense, I give all the credit to bottle and bonds return to one man, and his name is Bernie lovers. So if you happen to like buy all the bond whiskey, find Bernie on Facebook, Twitter or Instagram and tell him Thank you. Because if it wasn't for him, and his big giant tattoo on his arm, I don't know if we'd have bottled in bond right now. And that's this week's above the char. Hey, if you have somebody you would like to highlight and above the char hit me up on Instagram or Twitter at Fred Minnick. That's at Fred Minnick. Until next week. Cheers 5:46 Welcome back to episode of bourbon pursuit the official podcast of bourbon. This is the 33rd meeting and podcast recording of the bourbon Community Roundtable. It's this one, it's odd because we usually spend about a a day or two ahead of time kind of thinking of random topics. I always maybe sit there and look at some tweets Fred put out the week before and and see if like that's a makes good for a conversation or a topic. However, today this one sort of came all together like within the span of an hour and a half. It was the bombshell that kind of got dropped in one of the largest Facebook groups and we're going to talk about that here in a little bit. But Kenny's here, Fred and Ryan, join me here as well. How's it going tonight? fellows going? 6:30 Great. Oh, just Yeah. Do you know says that? It's okay to talk. 6:38 Go ahead. 6:40 No, it's funny. You're in your intro. I was thinking I was like, people may or may not know I delete social media during the week. So I normally have no tables are till about 30 minutes for I logged in today on Twitter. And I was like, Oh shit. I'm really behind. What what are we going to talk about? This is insane. So super excited about today's show. 7:01 It's a it's a riddle. Like, how do you piss off at the thousand bourbon enthusiasts in one one post? 7:07 Yep, exactly. Yeah. I mean, it's 7:11 it's interesting. And the thing is, is is like I think I think what's happening can play into a kind of like a larger kind of national conversation as well. So this is you know, and this is important for all of us right now to talk about 7:27 a good I people always like discussions on the secondary market. We don't like to think it exists. But of course it does. That's That's how that's how names get kind of brand names can get spread around. That's how valuations happen. So it's almost like a necessary evil but before we kind of start talking about that, I want to go around the horn as usual. Let the folks introduce themselves and we're going to go with on my left starting with Blake of bourbon 7:53 and he's on mute direction. 8:00 Me You know, I did too good of a job under no, I'm Blake from bourbon are always fun to be here. It's a you know, let's see the 34th bourbon roundtable in a row and the 34th time you've seen my face because that is the Cal Ripken of bourbon roundtable so thanks for having me. It's a 33rd but who's counting 33rd 8:22 that I'm going to be on next next month as well 8:24 yeah, let's see what that magic eight ball says 8:28 all right Brian sip and corn How you doing? 8:31 All right I'm doing great thanks for having me again night guys. Brian with sip and corn you can find me on social all the social media is sipping porn and online you can find all those things and more at bourbon justice calm and in sipping corn calm brings you to the same place. And looking forward to to tonight's conversation guys. 8:52 Alright, and the one of the highest ranking whiskey blogs out there today. Jordan from breaking bourbon, how are you? Good. Thanks for have us. This is Jordan, one of the three guys from breaking bourbon. com, find us on all the social medias at breaking bourbon along with Patreon and make sure to check out our updated Release Calendar update near daily. Awesome. 9:13 So with that, let's go ahead and kind of kick off the show, you know, we hinted at a little bit it was going to be talking about the secondary market. There's a large Facebook group in there, they don't really try to make it sound like it's hard to find it's actually called bourbon secondary market. So there's, there's no mystery whatsoever. But it's typically one of those places that it's a kind of underground, you have to be invited into it. And it's a buy sell trade form. I know that everybody on the call is a member of it. We've all been there before. So and before we kind of get into the meat of the subject I want to introduce Craig. So Craig, I'm going to hopefully don't screw it up again. rubric. Right? has joined us today. So Craig is one of the admins of bourbon secondary mark or bsm. So Craig, welcome the show. Hey, thanks. So Craig, before we kind of get into it a little bit, kind of talk about like how you came to be an admin inside of DSM. 10:11 Sure. Um, so I think everyone knows, the group's founder Oh, and, and through another group that Owen runs, I came to know him, which is the global bourbon hounds. And when you're running a group that size, you know, you tend to when it gets to a certain point, you tend to reach out to people that you trust to help you run it. And so that's that's basically how that happened. I mean, the group existed for I don't know a good year and a half two years before I came on board with the admin team and so that's basically what it was was just someone that would be somewhat level headed I don't know that we get bullheaded I 10:58 hope so. That is the secondary market 11:01 right so 11:05 but yeah, someone although I probably get accused of being one of the more I think with my emotions first type of admin in there, you know, we we try to be fair, it can be a challenge you know, we used to admin under our names in there and then we used to add many and under the bsm page just because guys get they get ridiculous. Their their bourbon feelings get out of control. They they can't contain it in their feelings journal. And so they have 11:46 I didn't create that, that that graphic. Well, I didn't create the actual feelings journal journal, but that was someone else that made that picture. But I do take credit for for putting that into the the bourbon secondary Mark vernacular as the word. So, but yeah, so that's, I mean, that's how it came to be was just, yeah, I'm happy to help out. I think now, whenever we are looking for admin, I think our first rule is, if someone is reaching out if they're actively pursuing being an admin, like, Hey, I love to help out. No, you're not nobody, it's not a good fit. Nobody wants an admin in there. But we're, you know, a close knit bunch of guys and but yeah, we admin from the page just because, you know, guys get crazy, they threaten your family. They threaten your livelihood, it gets ridiculous all over a silly bottle of bourbon. So. So that's, you know, that's that's why that changed, initiated. So today, you know, we have this email come out, that basically says Facebook's changing their community standards are tightening them. And so therefore, or any groups that buy sell trade alcohol, they want to have that activity cease. And so we, of course, had discussions about how that would affect us how we would operate. And so I think that what you're going to find is that the mega balls group, which we also run, for auctions, that's going to get I won't, I won't call it mothball. But we're just not, we're just kind of not going to be adding any map. So I don't have the logistics of that yet. Which Owen could probably speak better to that myself. And then regards to bsm. 13:41 Yeah, as like, let's let's focus on the bsm kind of, kind of what was because I know that's what a lot of people are here, really waiting for is, is what is what is going to be the next iteration. And by the way, for anybody that is just like, totally, like, not have any idea. they're new to bourbon, yes, there's this huge secondary market that exists. There's like 55,000 people in there and people post bottles for sale, people say they'll buy it, and then ends up and shows up your front doorstep. That's what he's kind of talking about this whole buy sell trade thing and this kind of open market that happens inside of Facebook. But Greg kind of talk about what is the, like the new ruling or kinda like the the next iteration of what is to come here, bsm? What's the, what's the go. So I think what 14:26 we're thinking now is that it may go to a straight deal by messenger sort of situation, I don't know that we've fully worked out the logistics of that. And I for myself, I just think, you know, admitting something like that will just be a nightmare. You know, in some ways, it's like a second job already. But I think that will kind of have to see how that plays out. I there hasn't been any, you know, doesn't make sense to go backup Facebook group, because you're under the same restrictions, right, your, your, your backup groups going to get tagged and, and knock down if you're engaging that activity. So right now, you know, what we've read into it is just change your group name. don't have anything in your group description about buy, sell trade, don't do any activity in your group. And of course, it only takes one upset person to direct that. So I think we're leaning towards a PM, a Facebook Messenger sort of based setup similar to us some other groups that are a little smaller than us, and our maybe secret and you got to know somebody to get in there. But used to be ran by a guy named Phil. You know, I think that, you know, certain groups that allow pm dealing and we never did, we are always about just having it done out in the open. So it it may very well likely be a one at from that. When we make a final decision. I know, Owen or you'll see a post via the bsm page will come up and say as such, but I think that's sort of the prevailing thought right now is that we would go to something one fat. 16:22 So Craig, you guys get this news today, what time today, like in the afternoon, 16:27 brown about I think I was just wrapping up with work when I checked my email. And I saw that, and then we started sharing that I think it was a little bit even earlier than that, when I hopped into the the admin chat and saw that there was already some discussion about that. 16:48 So you all you all have, you know, built something that is very much a part of the bourbon culture, especially kind of like the geek culture. And, you know, we A lot of us, you know, kind of look up to, you know, appreciate what you all have, you know, done. And now it's kind of be being taken away, you know, in some ways, I mean, you know, on the personal level, I know, you guys have been through a lot like in managing this, but you know, what were you all feeling when this came through what was going through your mind when, when you guys got this notice? 17:22 I think it's like, well, here it is, right? Like, there's always been, you know, guys have speculated about this sort of thing happening to, to our sorts of groups for for a while now have, you know, Facebook's done similar things with, with other groups that were of a sensitive subject matter that they felt like, we're not in line with their community standards. And so we've always felt like, you know, the hammer was going to fall at some point. And you know, if you remember quite quite a while back, we had that little kind of dust up when when bourbon groups just sort of vanished. And there, you know, Chicken Little came out and the sky was falling then right? And then does it feel different this time? It definitely like before, you didn't know what was going on. And again, you thought the same thing if you thought, well, this is it, you know, the hammer is finally falling. And Facebook has done away with us. And we were scrambling to figure out, you know, other social media avenues to form to do the same thing that we were doing now, this time around, it seems to be it seems a little more more serious, right? Like, there's a plan they're actively searching for, for the sorts of groups that are, you know, not by virtue of being a bourbon group, are you necessarily doing wrong, but whenever you cross that threshold to buy sell trade, then Facebook's not liking that. So? Yeah, it just feels like it may have more weight this time. We're we're treating it more. I think there's some within our ranks that that, you know, feel like maybe wait and see. There's also a little bit of disbelief, right? Like, was this just some, you know, nonsense email that someone has sent trying to troll us? Or, you know, something like that? several folks, even folks that manage large Facebook groups that are not bourbon related, been received an email. So yeah, I think just more serious is is a way to kind of sum it up so enough, that that, Owen and the rest of us feel like we want to react to it, to kind of just, you know, allow this sort of thing to carry on. And regardless of whether it's by Facebook, or not, like a quote, jurassic park here, like life will find a way, right. Like, if it's not hold on to your butts. Exactly. Like if it's not, if it's not via Facebook, you know, you can't keep a good flipper down right there. Right there, they're going to try to talk to their, their bottles of it, eh, Taylor small batch and, and well, or special reserve and, you know, whatever, no matter where they are, whether it's on in a smaller Facebook group, or Craigslist, or, you know, e Bay, God forbid, or what, you know, whatever, like, folks will find a way. So what we haven't talked about is any sort of moving to any other social media format. I think once upon a time we we mess around with a and I'll probably butcher the name may way. Page me we may way, there's actually people in chat that are 20:37 talking about that right now. I I'm unfamiliar with the platform 20:40 myself. Yeah. So we had we had messed around with that, you know, there, the issue you always run into with something like this is a group this size, when you switch over to something like that, like we had kind of sort of work the kinks out of admitting via Facebook. So then you switch to another platform and then admitting via that way, and trying to just figure out all the ins and outs of that is, is a bit of a headache. So 21:10 let's I feel like everyone's already on Facebook. So that's not 21:12 tough thing to 21:15 do just automatic because everyone's on their phone every single day. And so then they just see it 21:19 constantly. And it's just one more channel you got to keep up with when you have so many already. And it's like who wants another channel to mess with? But 21:28 you already have the older generation who's not on Facebook getting on there just for bourbon. Now, I don't even know what me we is. So 21:37 if any don't even know. 21:40 My barometer but migrate everyone over there's trouble. 21:44 No, no, you're totally right. I mean, Facebook is the logical platform for a lot of these kind of things, because that is where people spend their time already. And so Oh, and it sent us a message at least Blake and I a little bit earlier. And so I'll kind of talk about what he had had posted as the potential new rules. This is not official until it becomes official on the forum. But he had said that the kind of the new stuff is that you do not talk about buying selling or trading alcohol, because this is now against Facebook community standards. So that's no longer to be allowed inside the group. You're only here to see pictures, if you want to talk about to the person that posted a picture, then send them a pm. So kind of thinks of the old days of put something up there expected pm to come in as well. discussion posts are still not allowed go over to bourbon or for that, of course, thrown out the plug for you there Blake. But another way around this is that if you want to you just throw a link in to something that you had posted off of Facebook. So if you are posting it on bottle spot or Craigslist, you just drop the link in there, and then people can pm you that way. And that's how they can kind of get get in contact with you with that particular bottle. So it sounds like if there's a will there's a way because it's hard to lose a large majority of people like that, you know, with one fell swoop and then I'll take it another direction to and see what you guys think. You know, of course, will there's a way something's going to happen. And is this just going to start more segmented smaller groups and it's going to be hard to kind of find that that one big big group that was bsm. 23:26 I think as a community like and you know, I've grown tired of Facebook just in general you know, I've been I've been finding other avenues to do you know to buy and definitely definitely just from on a personal level. I mean I I don't enjoy Facebook I enjoy instagram and twitter but you know Facebook to me just It feels like it's it's become kind of like it went from somehow from being fun to like some mandatory you had you had to do you woke up you brush your teeth see check and see who posted a picture about their kid or something it just like in general, Facebook's losing a lot of steam and society is you know, as other platforms are growing, and I think the inevitability here, and I certainly I have an app and development, but I think the the inevitability here is that somebody creates something specifically for bourbon consumers. And frankly, it should be someone on this on this podcast right now. Because, you know, the fact is, is that this shits going to keep happening. I don't know if someone saw Mark Zuckerberg fake Pappy or what but the whole? It just it has. 24:42 What's that? It was me, sir. I always took you as a fake Pappy. Yeah. 24:49 lawyer? Absolutely. 24:51 Well, he knows how to get itself out of it. That's right law saying I can't refill this and sell it. But, you know, it's just this just just going to keep happening. And then they're going to say like, they're going to start regulating your, your private messaging and just, that's what what the fuck ever, you know. I mean, I actually, the last time this happened, I actually spent a lot of time reaching out to Facebook, getting comments from I spoke to people at Facebook. About the last time you know, the last time we had some sites go down and it just, you know, I mean, they played, they played me a fool. They played every wonderful like they fit, you know, they played our government a fool. Facebook just does whatever the fuck it wants to do. I mean, it's it's stills are information. They're just, they're turds. And I hate all of this. And, you know i, that the secondary group, there comes the feeling channel, you know, right. 25:51 Give me Give me my own mean. 25:54 Or, or as my friend Steve Sabin would say, fuck that guy. 26:00 But that's how I feel about Facebook, fuck. 26:03 I think at the end of the day, right, so we're all and he notices with the whole delete Facebook move and see a ton of different long reads on tech blogs or other areas, like people are still going to use Facebook man or walk right, you can't kick it, as Fred mentioned, you wake up, brush your teeth, check Facebook, but like, that's what people realize. You know, you might leave Facebook, but there are society stays on. But that being said, bourbon might leave Facebook, and people will go with it. Because at the end of the day, people want to make money, they're going to go where the money is. So it may be more of an inconvenience, and people might complain about it. But they're still going to go do it because they're going to want to sell bourbon and they're going to I want to buy bourbon and you know, free economy will find a way. So I think it's just gonna be a super convenience. And people complain about it a lot. That being said, about a lot of people just go wherever the money is going to take them, which is the end of the day is what it's all about anyways, right? We're not like talking about a community or like, Hey, you know, checking on each other, it's, I'm going there to make money, I'm going there to spend money, that's all it is. Right? 27:00 Drop, dropping the hammer, 27:02 I kind of the tough part is figuring out Facebook's logic in this. And to me, it's just they don't want the liability. You know, we've talked about this before on multiple different whether it's shipping or just online sales, whatever it is, Facebook doesn't want the liability. So they gotta at least put that out there. What I'm interested to see is, you know, kind of going back to asking, Craig, does this feel different than the times before? Is, is Facebook really going to follow through with this? You know, it kind of does sound like they are and it is a little bit different. But we've been down this road before and then maybe kind of a See See ya a move from them of who knows, I don't know what kind of legal ramifications they'd have. You know, Brian could probably speak a little more to that seems like in the past, there's been a whole lot of other shady or deals happen on like Craigslist, and that kind of stuff. And I don't know if those guys have ever gotten in trouble or prosecuted for for, you know, actual illegal behavior, or at least more illicit behavior. But it will see, you know, it definitely is a big platform. I've kicked around ideas of having having a solution on my site with seal box. But it's just like, there's a lot of issues you have to solve before you jump into that. And Facebook was always just the easiest route, because everyone was there. So that'll be interesting. Next, next couple of weeks, for sure. 28:30 Yeah, it sort of struck me is is and maybe this is just wishful thinking something that all pass that they'll crack down for a little bit. And you have to be doing things through links to bottle spot or direct messages or whatever. And then it sort of flows back into the way it was. I mean, that's, that's my guess, anyhow, I don't I think you're right, Blake, that it's probably a lot of See ya from Facebook. But other than that, it's, yeah, there's the underlying fact that in most jurisdictions, you can't sell person to person on the secondary market. So once they get their lawyers involved in telling them that I mean, that's, that's the road, they're going to go down every single time. You know, your rules, 29:16 rules, 29:18 rules, we make exceptions to the rules, we enforce the rules, and we get paid on at each step of the way. I'm 29:26 honest about it. 29:26 It's the greatest cycle there is in business. 29:29 Exactly right. Yeah. To get paid at every step 29:34 to I've wondered, too, is this going to push it more? Is there a lobbying effort? Maybe is this going to push it more toward like Kentucky's vintage spirits law and is there a push to get it into those retailer hands so that you have some assurances against fakes if you're buying it from a reputable vintage, you know, retailer, 29:57 that's a great point, I actually had this conversation with a friend of mine who's in the, is a really big seller. And I said, it's going to be great for for us because no one knows where to go to get bottles. And you know, and then if you have if yours, if you're a key person, and this in this chain, everybody's going to remember you from those groups, or whatever. And you're just going to call them and so you're going to have, you're going to have more, you know, more buyers from from that perspective. And I'll also say like, I get probably five, five emails a day, and I'm not even kidding, five emails a day of just someone from someone finding something in their basement. And I try to always push them into the legal ways to to sell that. And nobody wants to do that. So that's right. No One No one wants a record of the transaction. Everybody wants cash. 30:53 So just just low ball but keep the bottles here so 30:58 maybe that's what you 31:01 all those emails to me, Fred put an automatic 31:05 inquiring about said ever you get him to? Great Basin him to all of us. 31:10 One of us, right? 31:12 Of course. Yeah. 100%. And then it's like double what the secondary market is, like, was thinking maybe around $4,000 for Pappy 15? 31:21 Because it was their grandpa's and their grandpa? 31:25 So it has additional meaning to them. It sounds about right game of Go 31:29 Fish. 31:30 Yeah. Like the Nigerian prince all over again. So, you know, 31:36 while we're talking about sort of what the next phase of this is, I mean, do you think if there's any other platforms where something like this could live? Or is Facebook, the only one because if we roll back a few years, read it went through the same exact thing. And so Reddit kind of shut down their, their whole entire sales motion. And so when you look at the difference of what you see on Reddit versus what you see on Facebook, it's too opposite worlds, right? It is definitely more conversation focused, review focused, everything like that, versus Facebook, which is buy sell trade, and then you've got a few groups that are kind of like news. You don't really have a whole lot of people putting their tasting notes out there. But do you think if there's anything else have, 32:17 I mean, at the end of the day, right? So both Reddit Facebook, at its core, at least for like the bsm and the Reddit, it's just a V, it's an old school, the Bolton board, that's all it is. It's just an old school forum, if someone just creates a forum, and yeah, it's one more link, you have to go to a new moderator. That's all it is. Right? Anyone I mean, literally anyone watching right now or listening later on, not and do this, you just got to get the masses to go there. But that's literally That's hard. That's all we're talking about Facebook, and not at all was just an only thing. 32:48 The winning ticket here is that there is a there's a paywall to get into, you know, some kind of forum, you know, so you pay 50 bucks to be a member. And, you know, somebody takes on the liability of having the having the forum. And, and the it happens there, you know, and then it's not public, you know, you have to you have to get there, you have high level privacy. things in there, you know, and, you know, I used to belong to a few of those in like author circles, and, you know, I'd be I'd be communicating with, you know, high level authors. And, and there was no, I wouldn't be able to share that information. Of course, it's the internet. So you always could do it, but I would be penalized strictly by the the agreement I signed to be a part of it. So I think there is a way to do this, and we can protect the people who want to enjoy this hobby. But I'll go to the lawyer here in the ass. Is that possible? Could could we create some kind of 33:53 private forum where we get out 40,000 33:55 people in 33:56 there? What can you do? What can you do something like sports, but or gambling? Like, you know, but when I did used to gamble, I had a private website that I went to and yeah, back in the day 34:08 where you would going on? You 34:10 would, you know, you bet your and you'd have your bookie and you would meet him, you know, once a week to settle up. I mean, and it goes on, like all I mean, it still goes on. And so it seems like that could happen for some of these secondary markets also 34:22 means you have an intermediate intermediary 34:25 act like a I mean, it wouldn't be legal obvious, right. But I mean, sports bookies and gamblers are getting away with it. Nobody's cutting them down to shut it down. 34:32 Right. I think that's a bigger market. Much bigger market. 34:36 Yeah. aliens. There. So here, yes. And then that's why I'm not exactly sure. I haven't figured out why there's the focus on the whiskey market here. I mean, it's sure we've got 50,000, or whatever it is members of these groups, but what's that it's a drop in the bucket. It shouldn't really bother anyone. But when it comes down to it, it's in most jurisdictions, you're not supposed to do it. Fuck Facebook. 35:07 So it's Facebook now in the same genre as vodka in the lounge, red manic, a lot of hatred. We need a sign behind you, Fred. 35:20 like Facebook right now, you know, 35:22 Facebook has its purpose, you know? I mean, I don't know, I don't know what that purpose is anymore. But whatever. So vodka, vodka has no purpose. Let's just put it that way. 35:35 So to kind of wrap this up, one last question for Craig, what are you going to do with all your free time now? You know, 35:43 honestly, I was probably over the past few months have been one of the lesser active admins, but you know, it makes for you gotta do something while you're sitting on the toilet. Right. So now I guess I have to go back to reading or 35:56 something like that. 35:58 Wait, wait, wait, did you 36:02 You did all that admitting while you were on the toilet? 36:05 I mean, what else? What else? You gonna do it? Right? 36:12 Well, they weren't accepting donations. So you know, they weren't getting paid for the job. So it's, it's out of the graciousness of their hearts that they were doing. So absolutely. So Craig, thank you so much for coming on tonight and kind of giving us a breakdown of sort of the the history of what it is and sort of the future of what we can expect from the the new bsm going forward. So, again, as of today, everything is still provisional. So wait until you hear from an admin on a forum to kind of see what the, the actual future will hold. But if own or anybody else wants to that on the admin team, they will post the email that Craig was talking about at the very beginning that we were alluded to as well, so they can see that this wasn't just all smoke and mirrors. That was a real thrill threats happening. Alright. 37:02 Thanks, Greg. Appreciate it. Thanks, guys. 37:03 Yep, man. 37:06 So while we wait for Mariana to come on, you know, let's let's kind of switch it in a different direction. But let's go ahead and kind of take it as I mentioned, we had a we had a listener sort of reached out to us and talked about it was actually Patrick Nall. He reached out, and we all have bourbon as a hobby. But the question is, is how can we ensure that we are not becoming an alcoholic in the process? It's Kenny here and I want to tell you about an event that's happening on Saturday, August 24. Because I want to see you in historic downtown Frankfort, Kentucky, at bourbon on the banks. It's the Commonwealth premier bourbon tasting and awards festival. There's live music and over 100 vendors of food, beer, wine, and of course, bourbon. But guess what even will be there in the bourbon pursuit booth. You can check out all the events including tastings with the master distillers that you've heard on the show before and the People's Choice Award for the Best bourbon out there. You can get your all inclusive ticket for $65. Plus, you can join on the free Friday night event. Go and check it out bourbon on the banks.org and through June 30. You can get your discounted ticket offer two tickets for the low price of $110 when using the code be EOB 2019 during checkout at bourbon on the banks.org. You've probably heard of finishing beer using whiskey barrels but Michigan distillery is doing the opposite. They're using beer barrels to finish their whiskey. New Holland spirits claims to be the first distillery to stout a whiskey. The folks at Rock house whiskey club heard that claim and had to visit the banks of Lake Michigan to check it out. It all began when New Holland brewing Washington 97 there Dragon's milk beer is America's number one selling bourbon barrel aged out. In 2005. They apply their expertise from brewing and began distilling a beer barrel finished whiskey began production 2012 and rock house was the club is featuring it in their next box. The barrels come from Tennessee get filled a dragon's milk we are twice the mature bourbon is finished in those very same barrels. Rocco's whiskey club is a whiskey the Month Club on a mission to uncover the best flavors and stories from craft distillers across the US. Along with two bottles of hard to find whiskey rack houses boxes are full of cool merchandise that they ship out every two months to members in over 40 states. Go to rock house whiskey club com to check it out. And try a bottle of beer barrel bourbon and beer barrel rye use code pursuit for $25 off your first box. The question is is how can we ensure that we are not becoming an alcoholic in the process? So is there something that you do to kind of curb that? Or do you just look at it like Mama, I'm a very high functioning alcoholic. 39:59 What was the wasn't Jimmy Kimmel who's the other late night guy, I'm sure anyways, he had a thing it was like, Thank you craft beer for making my alcoholism looking like a fun new hobby. And, you know, it can kind of morph into that. So it is a really a kind of a sad reality of it is you don't want that to ever be a problem for someone who you're enjoying a hobby with. And then all of a sudden, that's an issue. So for me, it's just like taking, you know, whether it's a week, few days, you know, some even go month off of drinking, I think that's really if you figure out if that and that dependence is there, and it's no longer fun, and you're just drinking to drink. So I think that's important to take time off every now and then. 40:46 So I think I'm know, I'm the only one here that does it full time. Right? Jordan Are you full time yet? 40:54 drinker? 40:57 This is like I know, Kenny, you'd said, this is the hobby, this is actually what I do for my living and have done so for more than a decade. And, you know, when I came, I, you know, I'll share something very personal, you know, I, I have PTSD for my time. And in Iraq. And I have been, I've been fighting that for, you know, since I've been home. And in that process, I went through a lot, you know, in my recovery, I went through a lot of therapy. And one of the things that I picked up was was mindfulness. And that and that is one of one of the reasons why bourbon really, why I think I really focused on on tasting was because mindfulness was basically a way for me to ground myself of something else. And you would have to think entirely about whatever it is you were doing, whether you were like you were in a year and a moment you're trying to visualize and feel everything in that moment. For me, I would visualize and feel everything on my palate. And, and when I am not able to taste something, I put the I put it down like in in oftentimes, you know, I won't, I won't be mindful of what day it is. And I'll be like, on a, on a anniversary date of something that happened, it could be you know, it could be, you know, the day that, you know, I saw someone get killed, it could be the day I almost got killed, it can be something like that. But there there are, there are things that in us that we don't always know. But we we automatically get into, you know, bad moods, and so everybody will have something that can give them a sign for when they get themselves in a problem drinking situation. And for me, it's tasting, and it's in particular of like, where on my palate, I taste something. So I would challenge anyone who wants to, you know, explore this for themselves, I would say analyze the moments that you've had, you know, you may have had too much and you did something that you shouldn't have, or you just went too far, I would say analyze, you know what you felt like going into that situation, and see if you can stop yourself from going in that situation again. And so that's just one thing that I do, I also try to like not have, you know, there's tasting, and then there's drinking, my tasting is like analytical, I keep it very, you know, smell it, analyze it, taste it, spit, you know, drinking. And this is, you know, where I can get myself into a little bit of like, you know, having more than two is if I'm watching justified if I'm watching something that I'm really into. And I'm just into that moment, or if I'm reading a book that I'm really into, and I just keep like, you know, pouring, you know, and then I'm suddenly I've got four, you know, so like, it's being mindful of that as well. It's like knowing when you want knowing when you need to stop. And always, always, always have a plan to get home. That's the most one of the most important parts do not get in the car if you've been drinking. And most importantly, the distilled spirits Council has a has a sheet for what is moderating moderation and drinking. And I really try to follow that. And you know, men can drink more than women. But there is there is a an amount and I think turns out to be something like 15 drinks a week for four men. Those are 44:37 fantastic. points. Fred, thanks for sharing. And I think I think to add on to that, right? You touched on a little bit in there. I think everyone's different. Right? So if you feel, you know, to some people to drinks, they'll be they'll be drunk, right? Everyone's body is different. So if you feel that you're drinking all the time, or getting drunk all the time, just because you're only having two, three drinks the night right? When you see other people having 910, 15, whatever, right? That doesn't mean you know, it's okay to justify it. So you'll know your own limits. And don't compare yourself against anyone else. Right? That's the best way of doing it. You know what's right for you? Right? And you know, what's going to be too much. And you're going to know, it's just right. And everyone finds that point sometime in life and just kind of be as friends and mindful of it. But don't don't compare yourself and say, Well, you know, I see everyone else on Facebook drinking. I don't know, eight doubles tonight, right? I only drink four. I'm okay force too much for you. It's too much for you if that that's what you got to keep in mind. Right? Everyone has their own personal limit. And you do have to, as Fred said, just being mindful of that. And that's one of the keys things to do too. 45:43 Did you find that limit when you're selecting a bottle or a barrel a pin hook this past week? Well, we will thankfully 45:50 told people about this first. So me. Yeah, so really quick. So me and Nick went down along with Ryan to select a bottle for break room and single barrel club from Pinnacle. They're looking to Castle on key. So they propose a crazy cool, but kind of crazy, this experience where we worked with their, you know, their master taster that they work with the castle on key to narrow down. They pulled a lot of 40 little over 40 barrels for us. And these are the barrels designated for the single barrel program. And so I'm just going through like three or four, we went through all of them, we drank all the Bourbons. So they did prove them down to 5060 proof, right? And it was a lot of smelling a lot of sensory stuff. Tons of sensory stuff, lots of spitting. So the amount of actual bourbon we drink at the end of the day, what would you say, right? We drink even like two ounces of bourbon. 46:33 If that if that. And yes, I was spitting, I was falling. It was only like two or three ounces in that plastic cup by the new day. And it was a 40% or 52. But yeah, that was like Fred said it was very analytical. Very, you know, we were thoughtful, we were very focused on what we're doing. Like we weren't there just to like, sloshing back. And our motive wasn't to go get slammer or whatever. But mean, I think you just have to know, like Fred talked about, I'm big in mindfulness awareness, like I have ADHD. And I know like, when my mind can kind of take over and send me places. And then when I've had too much, I just my body can tell me like, all right, you need to settle down for a few days, and you gotta listen to your body when you start to, like, ignore that. And you start to like, drink to fight off the the night before, you know, chasing the hair of the dog, you know, that's when I think you're like really going down a slippery slope. And I've had, I've had those days, you know, you go on a bachelor party, or you're a lake weekend or a golf weekend, and you're you're there to party for two or three days. And then like, All right, I'm done for like three or four days, you know, just to clear it up. And then when you can't recognize that I think that's when you definitely need to, to seek some help and find some because there's definitely some issues there. 47:51 Yeah, I don't know the answer. Certainly. But Fred, thank you for your your openness on that. I think that's, that will help a lot of people. Listen, running today and in the other comments about just knowing yourself and knowing when it's time to take a break. So I think that's I really appreciate those 48:10 personally. Alright, so that kind of sparked a topic and kind of went down a crazy little hope we hope we can come back out of this and raise spirits, I guess if you can a little bit. But this is really coming because there was an article on CNN this past week and talked about how investors are looking at alternatives to bars. And there's a maybe it's like a Brooklyn thing like I don't know, where there's these sober bars that are kind of coming up, right, the people are making these craft mock tales, and they still cost you 1012 bucks apiece. But do you see this is like a like a catching on thing? Or do you see this is a 48:55 just a fad 48:56 for so last year, last year, it tells you the cocktail the world, you know, most important largest, you know bar conference, they had a party, lamb grant through a party where there was no alcohol, like the opening party had no alcohol. So this is like a really a really real trend. And they're they're trying to chase 23 year olds don't drink. 49:22 So let's just go ahead, and we'll let Mary Ann's joined us. So we'll, we'll kind of wrap up this topic really quick. So Mary, and we're talking about sober bars if they are actually going to become a thing. So Fred, I'll let you finish up your thought and then will will lead on over to Mary and then 49:39 yeah, the the growth of of like the silver bars and this trend of like, just eliminate drinking. It falls in line with all these efforts to legalize alcohol advertising. And these fraudulent studies that are coming out from a publication called Lancet that is extrapolating minute to minute amounts of data and basically saying, you know, all alcohol causes all kinds of cancers. And so we're having, we're having this basically this frantic health scare. That is it, in my opinion, is fraudulent. And the industry cannot fight it. Like they're losing everywhere they turn. Because you know, there's a new study every week that tells you you're going to get cancer, if you drink alcohol. And the sad part is is every one of those damn studies almost they almost always get recanted. But the fact is that it gets on USA Today wants its air forever. 50:35 Sounds round up. And what I deal with on a day to day basis 50:40 doesn't cause cancer. 50:44 It causes it in California, but not exactly. 50:46 If you think about it, though, there's there's other studies that come out that says, oh, a glass of wine a day or glass of whiskey a day, whatever it is, and then you're going to live to 90, you know, these are and anybody that I Google's it, I think there was a TED talk or something like that, where somebody actually made a fake scientific research study and it got published in like PR news and like all or Newswire and all this kind of crazy stuff. So it was basically a study this be actually show like how false the sort of scientific studies are that that get really blown out of proportion. So it sounds like there's a there's a lobbyist group that's really pushing towards this for to make something like this a reality. 51:29 Yeah, for sure. 51:31 Anybody else have any other comments or thoughts on that before we change directions? 51:34 My only thought is that article that you sent us Kenny the the description of one of those drinks was so god awful that that should kill it in its crack. So I wrote it down and acidic beverage made from vinegar, fruit sugar, and club soda. I mean, that should kill the lemon right there. 51:53 probably use that. You could probably use that for round up. What 51:58 was it? Mix it up, right? 52:00 What's the cocktail mix made out of apple cider vinegar? It's um, where they do the fruit and the apple cider vinegar shrub. Yeah, I mean, it's basically a non alcoholic syrup, isn't it? I could be wrong. 52:10 Sure. 52:14 I'm not a bartender. 52:17 was the worst thing I've ever done in the kitchen. I can buy these from now on. 52:22 Definitely taste better than they smell. 52:25 Yes. Yes. Yeah. 52:28 I was like, I'll use vinegar on like, you know, reheating like pork butts and stuff like that. We don't we do. We smoked smoked barbecue, stuff like that, but haven't really done a whole lot in the cocktails. that's a that's a whole new that for me. That's a hard pass. So with that, let's go ahead and bring on our next guest. So you heard her already. She's been on the podcast before. I think it was like Episode 16. Like way, way back in the day. 52:52 When we we were not very good. We we still suck but I think we're 52:57 less sucky now. Marianne, welcome back to the show. 53:00 Thank you so much candy as a pleasure. 53:03 Yeah. So you know, we love to have you on I know, Fred. Fred kind of thinks of you like, like a little sister sometimes. You know, he feels like, 53:11 like you all went shopping together? 53:18 Yeah. You know, Sir Paul. 53:22 But we kind of want to have you on and kind of talk about, you know, what's new with you? You know, it's not I mean, I think you you made national headlines, right? I mean, it was everywhere the of the separation between you and castle and key. So So kind of talk a little bit about it, and sort of what's on the horizon for you, too. 53:41 Yeah, I, I am really proud of of everything that I've built. And we achieved it at Castle and key. But what I've learned about myself is that I really love making things and building things. And you know, kind of all my startup energy was used in in castle and key to get them where they are. And I'm ready to try some new things. I've been wanting to get into some different spirit categories. Not that I'm going to leave bourbon, and not not permanently anyway. But I want to get some experience in mezcal and rum and we'll see where where life goes from there. 54:20 Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think for a lot of us, you know, we were we were all kind of shocked to see the news because we were you had been really the face of the brand for so long. I don't think there was a day that we didn't see on Instagram with you at the distillery or seeing the the gardens or something like that. So you know, definitely we wish them the best of luck and everything that they're doing, and you as well, but kind of kind of talk I know you kind of took a little bit of a break to I you went out west for a few days to kind of regroup. 54:49 Yeah, I knew it was going to be big news when when that press release went out. So I just went ahead and made the executive decision that being in a remote island in the Pacific Northwest. And my my aunt's treehouse, my dad's cousin would would be a good idea. So yeah, I took a few days off and spend some time in winter and getting ready to take a little bit more time off down in Florida right now. And I'll be heading back out west next month. So yeah, some some exploration and travels coming up just to regroup a little bit before I figure out what's next. 55:26 It's kind of talk, you know, I've been in a situation to where we're looking for for new gigs right away, and you kind of need that time away. But what was the response like from other companies or anything like that, where they was like, Oh, crap, she's on the market. We gotta grab it real quick. I mean, did you have any of those conversations pop up? 55:49 Yeah, I had lots of people reaching out to me through the website, you know, some folks just looking to pick my brain for consulting type work. others that were like our Yeah, we've got a brand or we're starting something. And we wanted to know if you were interested in being our master distiller, but I'm not really interested in just getting another job. The consulting part is really interesting to me, I think, you know, my, my expertise in developing products and helping to design processes is something that a lot of folks more so maybe outside of Kentucky could benefit from, you know, learning the authentic Kentucky way of making spirits. But yeah, I really just want to get back into the gears and challenge myself and maybe, you know, learn learn some new things. 56:43 Your opportunity like in other spirits, like as, I wouldn't say, bourbon stagnant for your like, you know, because it's kind of the same thing. Like, there's not much variance or variation you can kind of do with that like, like with mezcal or other spirits. Does that kind of get more creative with? 56:58 I am. I'm just totally convinced that we're not done innovating and bourbon yet, but it just seems like every new thing is kind of a thing, an iteration of something that's already been done. Yep. So I think there's, there's a whole new genre of innovation out there that nobody's tapped into yet. And what it is is inspiration from other spirits, you know, and I have yet to learn everything I need to actually execute that but I think there's there's lots of interesting spirits and lots of unique ways that they create flavor that we can bring back and even though you know, it's this certain set of regulations that make bourbon what it is there's there's there's more to play with. 57:47 Right? And it's not like the bourbon consumers are so open to new ideas, you know, 57:53 with a product offer friendly, so welcoming. 57:58 Sure, our I was like, that's been the bread and butter for a while. So it's, I mean, if you've been trained in that area, or is that something that you're just you're looking to explore 58:09 in what area Miss cows and 58:12 other things? 58:13 Yeah, not Not really. I mean, I worked for brown Forman, which is a global spirits company. It's not just whiskey. Although I did focus a lot on whiskey. I I spent a lot of time in Mexico and out in California making wine they sent me to Belgium to do a few local projects. I I made vodka for them. 58:41 Along with Fred just lost Fred 58:46 he didn't spit it out. 58:51 He was just being kind. 58:54 did say I did right after I did taste it. I did ask you straight I was like, What are you doing? Why do you Why do you drinking vodka? 59:02 Dude, 59:03 yeah, it's a shame that that was the first thing that you tasted that I've made from scratch. Yeah. 59:11 Music is there anything to drink up here? Like we're gonna go to the warehouse next but you got this clear stuff that but 59:21 now you seem to have a real passion for gin. And like, you know, we hung out you know the other day and you know, we were you know, having some a lot of different a lot of different gin cocktails. What's your What's your favorite style? adyen there's a lot out there. Geez, it like gin is a almost infinite world of ways that you can change the flavor. I think that's the thing that's so interesting about it is you can do almost anything. 59:50 my palate, you know, as a bourbon distiller kind of leans towards something that's more balanced. So a London dry. That's like super Juniper forward is not where I tend to gravitate. So like a botanical, more modern botanical style, but doing really unique things. Like I think that the castle in Cajun, well, nothing is super crazier off the wall. It's unique in the way that it's crafted. And that's not my favorite word ever, but just the thoughtfulness of the ingredients and how they're integrated together. 1:00:31 Yeah, absolutely. Since you were talking about consulting earlier, David Jennings of Robert when no one wanted to ask, because you had missed the earlier half of this conversation, if you wanted to start consulting on helping direct the the new urban secondary markets and it's now going under. 1:00:49 I don't know how I can help. 1:00:56 Secondary. Did you ever did you ever buy anything? You ever buy any old bottles on a secondary market? 1:01:03 No. I tried to barter for a couple but never actually got any bites on that. Give me a great VIP tour. 1:01:12 I remember I 1:01:14 remember like, like, this was a long time ago. You were was when you were with Woodford maybe 2013 2014 1:01:24 It was a long time ago. But you were you did bring up like some kind of you know interaction with you and with you and Chris for a bottle. Is that what you're talking about when you were trying to like have a An Evening with with Chris Morris for a bottle that ring a bell? or using one of those bourbon secondary markets? And and you were trying to get people to come to a Chris Morris event? 1:01:55 Is it was it the the old president's choice? 1:02:06 She's the one she she brought up. 1:02:10 Yeah, here remember that? No, this was actually a castle. You know, a lot of folks would have those old castle decanters. Like, like, I'd never seen one before. You know, 1:02:21 for however many hundreds of dollars. 1:02:26 I don't really want to give you money. But if you like to come out and take a tour, Hillary, we can probably work something out. 1:02:34 And everybody always wants money. Mary. 1:02:38 I understand. 1:02:40 So last question. Miriam. Before we we ask one more question, then we'll kind of round this out. So for you, I know you talked about wanting to do consulting but kind of picture dream job. So here, would you like to start at something smaller and help build that up? Kind of like a you know, Catholic? He was kind of big? Let's be honest. That's a pretty massive place. 1:03:01 Looking at perfect size, perfect size? Yeah, we definitely need 1:03:06 it or would you rather go to a large corporation? You know, if it would be the heaven hills, it would be the Maker's Mark of the world, whatever it is? Or would you just like to just keep doing the consulting and bouncing around and, you know, Mark night, he please put me putting you in some tough shoes to fill here and said, Marian, could be the next day pickrell with a question mark. 1:03:28 I what, I definitely think that his passing lifted a gap in the market. So as much opportunity is this comes from that I would be grateful for I've had lots of various brands reach out. I think, you know, I'm just gonna leave myself open to the universe and see what what happens. And I don't want to say for sure, you know, and I 1:03:56 will or won't, you know, build my own someday, I think then 1:04:03 I would love to be involved with with people who are passionate and want to make good stuff. And if they turn into large brands, that's cool. If they want to keep them small and boutique, that that's fine, too. 1:04:16 Sorry. And just to have it on the record, this means you're open to pursuit spirits 1:04:23 whatever you were saying earlier will make it happen. 1:04:30 Marianne, I'll say like, you know, 1:04:33 I I've talked about you know, many times often in defense of abuse, sadly, you know, when people bring up you know, the master distiller role and everything, and, and I just don't tell you, you know, you can do anything, you know, you're, you have, you have incredible you have incredible, you know, smarts for this business, you haven't you have an ability to market, you know, for marketing and everything as well. And that's rare. And, you know, when you came out and chose to take the title of master distiller, you became a hero for a lot of young women. And there were there were women in their 50s who looked up to you after that, and, and I know that you had a lot of, I'm sorry, there's there's a chat going on in our in our group. Our, our, we've been, we've been banned, you've been named, but you you can marry and you could do anything. So whatever. Whatever it is. You want to put your mind to you know, I hope it's I hope it's bourbon. I hope you do stay on bourbon. I think you have a talent here. 1:05:55 For God's sake, stay away from vodka don't 1:05:57 don't take your talents 1:05:58 to god yeah. 1:06:02 Word of word in your in your opening statement was flavor. Yeah, just remember that let that be the driver dreams. 1:06:10 And always that cordial Fred 1:06:18 should go with a flavored vodka is 1:06:22 you guys are horrible. 1:06:27 So that was a good way to sort of wrap this up. But I do have because we always end up having way more comp topics to talk about. And I kind of want to do this one real quickly. Also, to kind of trail on what Fred said. There was somebody that spammed our chat going on it was sexy, triple x asking to people to click on links for cheeseburgers and booze. 1:06:49 And it's like is Jordan Jordan Jordan put in here like maybe we should have her on next time? 1:06:55 seem cool. cheese burgers, like the link unfortunately. 1:07:03 I was so confused when that pop up because I wasn't following the chat. And I'm like what? Who's sexy? 1:07:11 Why am I not in the chat right now? 1:07:16 I was doing my best not to lose it. 1:07:19 So speaking of cheeseburgers and booze here this was a question that Fred had put out on Twitter this past week and would you drink a marijuana infused bourbon? Go ahead. What do you think 1:07:32 only if it had real weed in it? 1:07:34 Yeah cuz let's let's before there was a lot of back and forth before like 1:07:37 of like it just 1:07:38 they put THC in know, like, we're 1:07:41 putting like the real deal in here. Like we're not doing this whole like you know, hemp bullcrap. Whatever it is, like let's go let's go all in here. And also people are going there they're kind of pissed because they're like it's not bourbon then if it's infused like we get it Okay, like like we know it's new category people just want to they really got a harp on it. But I guess the question is, is reefer bourbon Are you in or out? 1:08:05 So if anyone's had sharp Bay Have you already had it? 1:08:10 is using hops the 1:08:16 man I don't know, man. Margot. He's dropped a little ganja up. 1:08:21 There might be a little bit more than hot. Yeah. 1:08:24 Yeah. If it gives the same effect. Yes. I'm all in. Thank you. 1:08:28 Please. Somebody said yes. Because I say yes. Yeah. You know, 1:08:34 I'll go the hybrid route. Okay, 1:08:36 since I haven't added there's a there's a bar in New York you asked for a dragon and he get

Jeff & Will talk about their upcoming trip to the 2019 LA Times Festival of Books. They also discuss two series they’ve been watching: Comedy Central’s The Other Two and Freeform’s Pretty Little Liars: The Perfectionists. Books reviewed this week include Kim Fielding’s The Spy’s Love Song, Ari McKay’s Take Two and Erin McLellan’s Clean Break. Jeff interviews Erin McLellan about Clean Break, the second book in her Farm College series, and about why it’s important for her to tell stories based in her home state of Oklahoma. They also talk about her Love Life series, what got her started writing, her author influences and the TV she likes to binge watch. Complete shownotes for episode 182 are at BigGayFictionPodcast.com. -------- Here’s the text of Jeff’s book reviews: The Spy’s Love Song by Kim FieldingRock star and secret agent on a mission to a foreign country to topple a dictator all wrapped up in a Dreamspun Desires package. That combination pushed all of my romantic suspense buttons and I had no choice but to pick up this book. And I loved it every bit as much as I thought I would. I was in tropey goodness heaven with the rock star thing, a bodyguard vibe plus lovers on the run and some occasional forced proximity. Jaxon Powers is a jaded rock star who’s at the end of a long tour. After waking up in a hotel room barely remembering what happened the night before, he might also be ready for a change in lifestyle. He gets a lot more than he bargained for when his manager brings him to a meeting with the State Department. It seems the dictator that runs the small country of Vasnytsia is a fan and wants Jaxon to perform a private concert as well as a large outdoor one for a worker’s festival. The U.S. wants Jaxon to do this because it’s a chance to improve US relations with the Russia-supported dictator. The only person going with Jaxon on the trip is secret agent Reid Stanfill. Besides keeping Jaxon safe, Reid’s got an agenda that has global ramifications. I fell in love with this book right from the beginning. Kim plays with expectations from the beginning. While Jaxon appears to be the spoiled rock star we quickly find that’s not what he wants to be. He’s a small town boy, doing what he loves to do but he wants more substance to the way he’s living. The trip to Vasnytsia does exactly that as his world view gets a complete makeover. Not only does Jaxon end up traveling without the entourage he’s used to, as Reid’s mission goes sideways the two end up on the run. Reid’s mission is to try to destabilize the country and force elections and that makes him an enemy of the state. Despite his fear, Jaxon won’t leave Reid to fend for himself. Jaxon knows his celebrity can protect both of them and he sticks by Reid even as Reid tries to force the star to safety. Through all of the crazy events that could result in either of them dying, Jaxon and Reid manage to start a romance. Reid tries to keep it from beginning since they’re in a country where homosexuality is illegal but they give in to their passions. That’s just the beginning as they share stories about their pasts, which only endears them more to each other. The mix between the romance and suspense is perfect, giving our guys time to fall in love even while things around them go crazy. I liked that Kim avoided the usual Dreamspun scenario of having alternating points of view. Everything in the story is Jaxon, which works perfectly so we don’t know Reid’s mission or anything else too early. It makes for a very snappy read going on the roller coaster that Jaxon experiences. Kim brings Vasnytsia to life through its people. It starts with the guides taking Jaxon around the country, giving him peek behind the propaganda. As he meets fans who must covertly speak to him as it wouldn’t be proper for anyone to talk with the American he begins to understand why Reid’s mission is so important. Ultimately it’s these people who shelter Reid and Jaxon and help complete his mission–with a particularly awesome assist from Jaxon. Drew Bacca does a great job on the audiobook, including having to sing a couple of Jaxon’s songs. This is the first book in the “Stars From Peril” series that Kim has in the Dreamspun line. The second book, Redesigning Landry Bishop, comes out in May and I’m already looking forward to it.  -------- Clean Break by Erin McLellanI almost didn’t pick this book up because I couldn’t imagine reading a book that included the characters taking care of Madagascar hissing cockroaches. I’m not a fan of bugs and the trigger warning page discusses more about the bugs than anything else. However, I’m glad I listened to the re-assurances I wouldn’t be creeped out because this is a terrific book–and the bugs really are a non-thing. This book, the second in Erin’s “Farm College” series, throws together Connor Blume and Travis Bedford–two guys who very much don’t like each other in the aftermath of an awkward, failed hookup. As their final college term begins, Connor and Travis are taking Entomology 101 and because the professor likes students to sit alphabetically, they’re next to each other and end up becoming class partners. Their dislike for each other radiates from them during that first class. Connor’s OCD and anxiety flare up just being near the guy, who he’s still wildly attracted to and wants to have a real discussion with. Travis has the attraction too but carries the anger from their previous hookup. It only gets worse as they get the assignment that they’ll be caring for Madagascar hissing cockroaches for the semester or that they’ll have to answer discussion questions together. It doesn’t take long for the sparks of dislike to turn into sparks of desire and they end up spending time after class in a storage closet making out. Neither of them is particularly happy that they’re giving in to their desires, which makes the scenes cuter and hotter. Travis wants the fussy farmer and Connor very much wants the stand-offish English major. Even as their make out sessions start to cool their hatred, they realize they’re constrained by time. At graduation, Connor is set to take over management of his parent’s farm, even though he doesn’t necessarily want that. Meanwhile, Travis can’t wait to get out of the small town for his legal aid internship and then on to law school. The guys have their futures mapped out and there’s no space for the other. That doesn’t stop them from getting emotionally entangled. Erin does a terrific job of bringing these two together. As they move their hookups to the bedroom, Travis discovers he likes Connor’s controlling side and gives himself over to it. Connor though never takes advantage, making sure that he’s always got Travis’s consent and that Travis enjoys himself. That continues as Travis reveals he’d like to be spanked. Both guys discover this is exactly what they need. Beyond the sex though, their efforts to not get too attached aren’t helped by their post-sex talks. Travis usually wants Connor to tell him a story and it’s here that he opens up bit by bit about his anxiety, his OCD and his pre-determined future. There’s so much going on for him, as a reader I wanted to wrap him in a hug and do whatever I could to ease the load he carried. Travis talks a lot too and over time we learn what makes him so driven–it turns out he lost one of his dreams due to an accident and he doesn’t want to let anything or anyone cost him this one. Just a she was great at bringing them together, Erin tears the guys apart just as expertly. It’s a tough go as Connor and Travis force themselves apart as graduation nears. Erin does a number on the characters as they emotionally hurt themselves and each other as they keep to their plans. Both guys want to talk to the other so badly and yet they’ve promised not too. For Connor, this is particularly bad for his OCD. Of course, this is a romance, so all must end happy. Thankfully how Erin gets the guys back together his as satisfying as everything she did earlier in the book. There is a way for them to be together–it just takes time for them to get there. -------- Interview Transcript - Erin McLellan Jeff: Welcome, Erin, to the podcast. Erin: Hi. Thanks for having me. Jeff: Very excited to have you here. You’re a new-to-me author and I just finished reading “Clean Break,” which I have to tell you, I adored so much. I’m reviewing it right before we get into the interview segment I’ll have reviewed it to kinda tell everybody about it. Erin: Yay, thank you. Jeff: It is the second book in your “Farm College” Series. So before we dive into “Clean Break,” tell us more about what the “Farm College” Series is about. Erin: Okay. So it’s just two books so far like you said and they are set in a fictional college in Western Oklahoma. And I would say kind of the overarching themes are… Since they’re college stories, they’re new adult that’s kind of coming of age and self-discovery, finding your authentic self, finding a home is kind of a big one. I think that’s kind of important at that age. You’ve moved out of your parent’s house or wherever you grew up for a lot of people and kinda figuring out what is home, what is family, that kind of thing. So those types of themes are kind of follow both books. They’re both kind of angsty to be honest though “Controlled Burn,” more so than “Clean Break” actually. Jeff: Oh, my goodness. Erin: So be prepared. But, yeah, and I think in terms of… The setting is really important to me at least as the author and those books is important to me. I’m from Oklahoma. I live in Alaska now, but I’m from Oklahoma. And it’s important to me to write stories that are set in Oklahoma that have, you know, LGBTQIA+ characters in Oklahoma. And I know as somebody that reads a lot of romance, I don’t see that very often. I don’t see romance set there or it might be… I have seen it where it’s, you know, characters that are like, escaping Oklahoma which certainly is the case for a lot of people, but it’s also the case that people live and love, and make their lives there. And I kinda wanna show that. Jeff: Does a farm college like this exist in Oklahoma? Is it based on a real place? Erin: No. Kind of I guess. A lot of the kind of small details mirror Oklahoma State which was my alma mater for undergrad, but Oklahoma State is so much bigger than the college that I created. So Farm College is kind of a smaller college in Western Oklahoma that I’ve created, but in terms of being, you know, having a strong agriculture program, but also kind of having this liberal arts situation that’s going on and a pretty vibrant LGBTQIA community, I’ve kind of made most of that up. So… Jeff: And I agree that we don’t see, I mean, besides books set in Oklahoma, really the more rural settings kinda, it’s always escaping from those places. And I like that you kind of built a place as if this is what you’d like to see even if it doesn’t quite exist there now. Erin: Right. And I think it’s kind of funny when I started writing “Controlled Burn.” It was pre-2016, right? And I kind of had this, you know, I kind of had this idea that it’s getting better, right? It’s looking up for lots of communities and I’m not sure if that’s necessarily the case anymore. I hope it will be and I hope it is eventually. But, you know, there’s good and bad, I think, about places like Oklahoma and Kansas, and Texas. And, you know, Oklahoma is really special to me. It’s really important to me. Kansas is the same, but there’s also problems and, you know, I wanna kinda write those stories. And I also, thinking about Oklahoma or Texas probably more so, a lot of the romances that I’ve read that are set there are like, ranch, you know, the cowboys, the farmers which there is kind of a farmer in “Clean Break.” But there’s a lot of people that live in Oklahoma and in Texas, in Kansas that aren’t cowboys. So I wanted to tell that story too. Jeff: Right. And you really hinted that a little bit with some of the dialogue between Travis and Connor in “Clean Break” too as they kind of talk about the difference between cowboy and more the farmer type that Connor and his family are. Erin: Right. Jeff: And so, as we kinda move this direction, tell us what “Clean break” is about and kind of who Travis and Connor are. Erin: Right. So “Clean Break” is about Travis and Connor. Travis is…he’s the best friend in “Controlled Burn.” So if you read “Controlled Burn,” you see quite a bit of him. He’s an English major. He’s from Houston, Texas, very ambitious. He’s got these kind of life plans and nothing’s gonna slow him down, right? He wants to go to law school. He’s got an internship after for the summer. He’s planning to move to Saint Louis eventually to work at this legal aid charity. He has this very, you know, set goals and he’s also kind of a unique, quirky, funny character to me. And then you have Connor who comes in and I don’t know if I would say at the beginning of the book, it’s more like pre-book before the book happens, they have a little bit of a failed hookup in a lot of ways. Some misunderstandings and so, they don’t like each other very much. And then in the first chapter, they get paired together as class partners in a class. And Connor is a farm boy. He’s kind of a townie, right? He’s from Elkville which is the city that’s it’s set in. He’s expected to take over the family farm and so, he’s got this, you know, he kind of his future plans are set, right? He doesn’t have a say over them and he’s… I have a big soft spot in my heart for him. He’s got anxiety, he has OCD. I really wanted to kind of write against the archetype of the like, lackadaisical cowboy or even like, the kind of the hard cowboy or, you know, that kind of archetype that I had in my head. I wanted to write a sensitive farm boy who’s in therapy and, you know, it doesn’t really match some of the people or the characters that I have seen written that way. And kind of the main issue between them, first is that they don’t like each other, but they’re attracted to each other, right? But the kind of the main two things that I wanted to do with the book is I wanted to write a complex authentic characters that are really well-rounded and hopefully, I accomplish that. And then the other thing that I really wanted to do was kind of write to people that are heading towards their future which is graduation and then, you know, the future beyond. And then their futures don’t mesh. There’s not really a way to come together at the end of graduation. They’re moving in different directions and I think that’s a really universal thing for people in college that are dating and dating seriously… do you compromise your future for somebody else? Do you change it? How do you make it work? So those are kind of the two things that I really wanted to hit on and of course, there’s, you know, there’s some kink that happens in the book and kind of self-discovery with that especially on Connors’ part. So there’s a lot going on, but those two things. The characterization and the conflict there with their futures not meshing are the two things I really wanted to hit. Jeff: And I think you did them both, I mean, really well. This book has so much going on in it and yet it never…the story also never gets way down either with the weight of everything that’s kind of moving around here. Erin: Thank you. Jeff: And really, you started them off as enemies who sort of move to friends to sort of get to lovers. Erin: Right. Jeff: Just that progression was so fun to watch unfold as they both pick at each other and then also help each other grow at the same time. It’s like, they lift each other up and kinda tear each other down at the same time. Erin: Right. And I hope that that is realistic. I think people… Because in a lot of ways they are kind of mean to each other at certain points and people can be mean to each other in real life. Especially, they’re not very old, you know, they’re 21, 22. So they kinda make stupid mistakes sometimes and say things that can be hurtful and then have to figure out how to make it better. Jeff: And I think with Connor too, you talked about writing against the archetypes and just having kinda the anxiety plus the OCD. And being, you know, a young gay man in that setting really just sets up so much for him in that situation. Erin: Right. Yeah. He has a lot going on. He’s bi actually and… Jeff: Right. I’m sorry. You’re right. Yes. Erin: And so, kind of a lot. I mean, it’s just a lot and I think it’s a lot for him to kind of deal with all at the same time. Jeff: What was your research on the mental health side of it to kind of figure out what traits to weave into his personality? Erin: So I did a lot of research and I had some readers too that read it for me. One of the main things that I really looked at was kind of the myths especially with OCD, kind of the myths surrounding OCD. I think a lot of people think it’s just, you know, a cleanliness thing or even an organizational thing where they, you know, people with OCD have an impulse to organize or clean. And that’s not really how it presents for a lot of people. A lot people have intrusive thoughts which he has or, you know, they have checking where he checks the expiration dates on food and he can’t kind of stop doing that even though he knows he shouldn’t be doing it, and it’s not healthy for him to do. And so, I did a lot of research about the myths and the different ways that it presents for people and kind of the hardships that it causes them. And I also really wanted to make sure that I kind of made it clear. It’s something that he’ll always deal with, right? It’s not going away and so, it’s really… I did a lot of research on how to manage it, how, you know, how to kind of continue life dealing with a mental health problem like that. Jeff: Yeah. I just… So often I wanted to just give him a hug when he was starting to lapse into it. It’s like, “Oh, I’m so sorry this is happening.” What you did through the black moments and I don’t wanna give spoilers for folks who, you know, need to read the book. But what you did to the black moments for both Connor and Travis as they dealt with their emotions and for Connor how those emotions kinda manifest themselves in his OCD was really just, I really liked seeing two young adults kinda come to grapple with all of that. Erin: Yeah. And I think it’s pretty normal when you’re more stressed, right? Or when there’s more and more stress for, you know, the OCD to kind of build on itself. The same with anxiety like, whenever I am really stressed about my anxiety, it’s gonna be worse about small things, you know, you can kind of blow them out of proportion. I know I do that and so, I was kind of trying to show that how it’s like as things got more stressful for him with graduation moving and with kind of this relationship with Travis, that’s not going away he wants it to go. It does kind of snowball for him and it kinda snowballs for Travis too just in different ways because he doesn’t, you know, he doesn’t have anxiety or OCD of course, but, you know, he struggles just kind of the same way. Jeff: Yeah. When you were talking about with this books about you left out one of its major points. Erin: The bugs? Jeff: That is the inclusion of the the hissing cockroaches. Where did that idea even come from? Erin: So I knew I wanted to put them in a class together and I wanted them to be class partners. But Travis is an English major and Connor is agriculture sciences, agribusiness major. And so, I knew it had to be like a gen ed class for at least one of them. And so, I really started thinking about the gen ed class that I had taken as an English major whenever I was an undergrad trying to figure out what class would make sense. And then I realized that I actually had taken an ag class that was Entomology 101. And I loved it, I, you know, I held like, tarantulas and I held millipedes. And I could see myself being that like, weird bug girl a little bit. I just loved it. And so, that’s kinda how I decided to put them in an entomology class. And it’s funny because, I mean, I do think that college is one of those times to take the weird class and do the weird thing. And so, I think it kind of made sense there and I also felt like, I gave a degree of what kind of humor and lightness I thought it would to the story. But I realize now that a lot of readers maybe don’t like bugs. So it’s something that’s like a little distracting to some people. When I had took the entomology class, we had an assignment where we had that exact assignment with the Madagascar hissing cockroaches where we had to take them home and observe them. And so, you know, for an entire semester, I had a Madagascar hissing cockroach in my dorm room with me. I never took it out of its box. I like, you know, I fed it, like, carrots through the little hole that it couldn’t get out and so, that would be fun to put that in the story. And I can tell you for the readers, the cockroaches do not escape ever. They never… There’s no, like, unexpected cockroach scenes. I promise. Jeff: Yeah. And I can vouch for that. There are no unexpected scenes and in fact, I had to check… I had to ask about that before I took the book to read and I’m like, “Bugs, I don’t know about that.” Erin: I know. I have put it in the trigger warnings for the book and on my website, it really does lay out kinda scene by scene where they’re at and kind of the degree that they’re on the page. And they’re not on the page that much. Jeff: No, they’re not and I never got squirmy reading it either because I really don’t like bugs. But I was totally fine with how this turned out. So… Erin: Yeah. I know. I don’t know why it hadn’t occurred to me that it would gross people out. At that point it was too late when it, like, finally hit me. I was like, “Well, I can’t do anything about it.” But I kind of thought that they were funny. Jeff: Well, I think it really fits with the whole ag culture of the college that of course, they’re gonna end up with bugs or whatever and have to learn about them. So it all meshed in together and like you said, there’s no point where they’re escaping or, you know, being gross. They’re just kind of there. Erin: Right. And students… Jeff: I like to, you know, those classes sometimes you take in high school where you’re having to take care of the doll for a week or whatever. And in this case you’re hanging out with a cockroach. So… Erin: Right. It’s kinda like a little pet for them for this semester. Jeff: So is there more plan for the Farm College Series? Erin: I have not kind of set plans. I do want to write a story for Alex. He’s in both books. He’s not in “Controlled Burn” for very much though his part is kind of important in “Controlled Burn.” He’s a friend of Connor’s really in “Clean Break” and I do wanna give him a story and I will. I’ll probably start writing that soon. Kind of be on that. I don’t know how much more I’ll write in the Farm College Series though I do wanna do a spin off that’s kind of several years in the future. So they’re not really in college anymore and I want to do an F/F romance for Desie and Lena. So I would start there for them. Jeff: Yay. Yeah. I would totally read that book because one of the things you did in “Clean Break” and I’m sure you established it back in “Controlled Burn” too, was just the tight community of friends that Travis and Connor both have, and even, like, the strong family presence of Connor’s family and how they support him. So it would be great to see more of all of that. Erin: Yeah. So… Yeah. And I definitely… I think I did a little bit more successfully in “Clean Break” for sure where they have very supportive families and they do have kind of a big wide friend group. And so, yeah, I’m glad that you like that, but I do want to do the F/F romance for Lena and Desie kind of. But Lena is quite young in this book. She’s 20 and so, I wanna give her a little bit of time to grow up, I guess. Jeff: Yeah. That’s cool. Now, you’ve got another series out there called “Love Life.” And tell us a little bit about what goes on in that series? Erin: Sure. So that’s also, they’re both male/male romances. Set in Oklahoma, Eastern Oklahoma for the first book, “Life on Pause.” They’re kind of small town romances there. The first one is about a guy that works at a homestead kind of prairie museum. They’re kind of common in Oklahoma where the people that work there have to dress in like, historical costumes of the time. So he works at that type of museum and then he is paired with a high school choir teacher. And it’s kind of them trying to fall in love and figure out how their relationship will work. It’s definitely kind of lighter in tone than the farm college series, but it’s still a little angsty. The second book in the series, “Life of Bliss,” is more novella link that’s a little short and it’s very tropey. It’s kind of two people that don’t like each other very much, but are fooling around kind of behind their friends’ backs. They agree to be fake boyfriends for a family wedding in Arkansas and Arkansas kind of, well, it has this… Historically in the area, it was the only state that didn’t have a waiting period for marriage licenses. Now, most of the states don’t, but back in the day, you know, they made you like, test for syphilis and all kind of stuffs. But extended the marriage license period. So Arkansas is kind of the place where people go for their shotgun weddings historically. So this is going back quite away, but in this book they go to a wedding in Arkansas, they get drunk at the wedding and basically, end up getting married themselves. It’s set in Eureka Springs, Arkansas for the wedding part and I don’t know if anybody would be familiar with that. But you can get married practically anywhere in Eureka Springs. It’s kind of an economy there. So it’s quite easy to get married and that’s what happens. So it’s kind of fake dating to accidental marriage. Jeff: Fake dating to accidental marriage. I like… Those are favorite tropes right there. Erin: Yeah. It’s a fun one, I think. Jeff: So what is your writing origin story? You’ve got these four books out. How did all this start? Erin: Well, I was a creative writing English major in undergrad, but then I ended up going to grad school for library and information studies. And I was a public librarian. And I had… I kind of had a lot of big changes in my life. I just graduated grad school. I just got married, I just moved away from home like, all of these big changes. I had a full time job for the first time and I had… I was living in Houston, Texas and I had this horrible commute. It was like, an hour and a half each way and… Jeff: Yeah. that’s pretty horrible. Erin: I think most people that have been in Houston know what I’m talking about. And I had all this time to kind of think and I basically on my commute started plotting a book. And some of it came from, I missed kind of the creative outlet writing research papers and stuff like that from school. And so, yeah, that’s kind of how I started writing as I plotted this book on my commute and then finally, I decided that I was gonna sit down and write it. And that book was “Controlled Burn.” Jeff: That’s an awesome story. Erin: Thank you. Jeff: What led you into putting this creativity towards M/M romance amongst all of the genres that were possible? Erin: Yeah. Some of it I think is that I was reading a lot of it at that time, I kind of got into M/M romance I guess if we’re going further back by reading Suzanne Brockmann, right? So she has the “Troubleshooters” series and that has Jules Cassidy who’s the gay FBI agent, right? He’s got that kind of the secondary romance through several books and then the primary thorugh a novella. And then whenever I was in grad school, I kind of didn’t have time to read for pleasure very much. So I wasn’t reading very much and then I took a class about reader’s advisory that we had to read like, the books from the best books of the year for “Publishers Weekly” and “Kirkus,” and stuff. And I just kind of… I can’t remember what year it was, but I grabbed kind of a random book off the romance list and it ended up being “Brothers of the Wild North Sea” by Harper Fox and I didn’t really realize that it was a male/male romance. So I just kinda grabbed it and started reading, and then it became quite clear, you know, very early on what it was. And it’s a beautiful book. Harper Fox is, you know, is a beautiful writer. Everything that she writes is really awesome and so, I kind of gobbled up everything that she had written and then it kind of hit me at that time. There has to be other writers that are doing this and, you know, they weren’t the books that were in the libraries. They weren’t in my libraries. So I kind of started searching them out and, you know, read a lot of K.A. Mitchell and Z.A. Maxfield, and some of those authors at that time that were the most prolific. And I was just very excited because I felt like there are all these authors that I had never heard of that I didn’t know about and they were all really, really good. And they were writing, you know, stories that kind of the themes were very important to me. And so, then when I write finally, eventually, decided to sit down and write a book. I think probably the main thing for me is that I wanted to write characters who are LGBTQIA in Oklahoma and it just happened to be that the first book that kind of came to mind, and that I plotted fully was an M/M romance in “Controlled Burn.” So that’s definitely how I got started. Jeff: That’s very cool and some great authors there to get you introduced to the genre as well. Who do you count as your author influences? Erin: Well, definitely, you know, my gateways were Suzanne Brockmann into romance in general and then Harper Fox. Kind of on a wider scale, I really like Alisha Rai. She kind of, she writes the heroines that are the type of parents that I just love. They are raunchy and rowdy, and wonderful. I would say also Annabeth Albert in terms of contemporary romance. Alexis Hall, I think kind of teaches or his books are like a master class on first person point of view if you look at “For Real” or “Glitterland.” And so, I really, really like his books too. Jeff: Now, your bio mentions that you like binge worthy TV shows. So of course, we have to know what are you binging these days or have binged recently that you would recommend? Erin: So my husband and I have been rewatching “Game of Thrones” of course, because the last season was about to come out. So when you binge that show, you just kind of realize how many awful things happened back to back to back because the first time we watched it, we didn’t binge it. We are watching it week to week, but when you’re binge watching that it’s like, “Oh, my God. That’s so awful, these things that keep happening.” Other than that, I really like… I like true crime, but I’m not watching any kind of true crime right now. And I like comedies. So I’ve watched “Schitt’s Creek” recently which I love, “The Good Place,” “Brooklyn Nine-Nine,” “One Day at a Time,” all these sitcoms that I think are really good, “Crazy Ex-Girlfriend” because I love musicals is really good. And then I also watch a lot of like, reality TV. So I like, like, “Tiny House Hunters,” and “Instant Hotel,” and “Project Runway,” shows kind of like that. Jeff: Very cool. Yeah. Some good stuff on there. Erin: You can tell me I watch a lot of TV. Jeff: “The Good Place” is a particular favorite. Erin: Yeah. It’s so smart. It’s so different than like, yeah, it’s very, very unique. So this is a great list for everybody who’s looking for something to binge the spring right here. So what’s coming up next for you in your release plans? Jeff: So I don’t have anything kind of set in stone. I’m not very good at planning. [I”m working on one about] tornado chasers or storm chasers. That’s a male/male romance that I have on submission right now to a publisher that I’m hoping will pick it up. If they don’t, then, you know, it’ll keep going out and hopefully somebody else will want it. I’m currently writing a book about a rec league softball team and I want this to be really, really tropey and kind of fun and light. The first one is using kind of the one bed trope. So I hope that that would be a lot of fun. I’ll write Alex’s story pretty soon and then I have a book that I wrote. But I’m hoping to put out at Christmas, it’s called “Stocking Stuffers.” And it’s a M/F romance with a bi heroine who sell sex toys. You know, like the Tupperware parties, but it’s like the, you know, the sex toy Tupperware parties kind of. And so, she works for a company kinda is the marketing person for a company like that and she’s hosting one of those parties, get snowed in, you know, with a big red bag of toys basically. Jeff: Yeah. That’s like an interesting forced proximity story. Erin: yeah. So it was a lot of fun to write. Jeff: And I’m very interested in the storm chasers one too because I’m kind of a weather geek at heart. So you kind of got me on that one. Erin: It was a lot of fun to write. Growing up in Oklahoma, you know, tornadoes are such a kind of a constant really. I mean, my parents have lost a house in tornado. I know lots of people that have lost houses in tornado. It’s so common. It’s just kind of a part of your life especially if you’re from Central Oklahoma like me and so, it’s… Yeah. It was a really fun one to write because you are just kind of entrenched in bad weather in Oklahoma in the spring all the time. So… Jeff: Very cool. And how can readers keep up with you online to keep track of all these projects? Erin: So I have a Facebook group called Erin McLellan’s Meet Cute. That’s a good one if you kind of… I do giveaways and book recs, and stuff. On Twitter my handle is @emclellanwrites and I’m on Twitter pretty often. On Instagram it’s @erinmclellanwrites and on Instagram, I would say it’s about 70% Alaska stuff like, every moves that I’ve ever seen and then 30% books. Unless there’s a book released and then it flips. But it’s a lot of Alaska if you follow me on Instagram. And then my newsletter which you can get too on my website or through any of the social media too. You would be able to kind of find the link to my newsletter and that’s probably the best way if you just want like, to know about new releases or sales, or things like that without having to kind of trudge through Twitter. Jeff: Well, fantastic. Well, I thank you so much for coming to talk to us about “Clean Break” and wish you all the success on that one and the upcoming releases as well. Erin: Thank you so much. It was so fun.

Order Our New Book, "Marriage After God" Today! https://marriageaftergod.com “A marriage after God is a team moving together in one mind, one heart, one spirit, and in one direction with their eyes on heavenly and eternal things.” - Aaron Smith, Marriage After God book In this episode, we interview our good friends, Ryan and Selena Frederick of the Fierce Marriage Podcast https://Fiercemarriage.com Dear Lord, We pray we would be husbands and wives who pursue intimacy with you. We pray we would make ourselves known to you and know to each other. Help us to walk with each other in an understanding way and to love unconditionally. Thank you for the gift of oneness in marriage and what it represents. We pray we would operate as one every day in our marriage relationship. Holy Spirit continue to empower us to do so. Help us to be transparent with one another. Help us to be great listeners as well. May truth be exposed and may your presence be evident in our lives. Thank you for marriage and thank you for salvation. You are a good God and we love you. May our hearts align with yours as we chase boldly after you and pursue a marriage That reflects your love story. In Jesus’ name, amen! READ: Hey, we're Aaron and Jennifer Smith with Marriage After God. Helping you cultivate an extraordinary marriage. And today we're in part three of the Marriage After God series and we're gonna be talking with Ryan and Selena Frederick about oneness and intimacy in marriage. Welcome to the Marriage After God podcast, where we believe that marriage was meant for more than just happily ever after. I'm Jennifer, also known as Unveiled Wife. And I'm Aaron, also known as Husband Revolution. We have been married for over a decade. And so far, we have four young children. We have been doing marriage ministry online for over seven years through blogging and social media. With a desire to inspire couples to keep God at the center of their marriage, encouraging them to walk in faith every day. We believe that Christian marriage should be an extraordinary one, full of life, Love, And power. That can only be found by chasing after God. Together. Thank you for joining us on this journey as we chase boldly after God's will for our life together. This is Marriage After God. Hey thanks for joining us today. As always, wanna invite you to leave a review. Star ratings are awesome, that's the easiest way to leave a review but the text reviews are also really powerful and we love reading all of them and that's an awesome way to spread the word about the podcast. Another way you can support the podcast is by shopping on our online store, shop.marriageaftergod.com, and we wanna encourage you to get a copy of our new book, Marriage After God, that's what this whole series is based off of and if you've been listening to the series, you've already been encouraged and inspired by the book content and so we just wanna at least get you over to the site to give you more information on the book. So today we're talking with some good friends of ours, Ryan and Selena Frederick from Fierce Marriage and Ryan, Selena, welcome. Hey guys. Hi guys, thanks for having us. Yeah, thanks for having us. Excited to be here. We're excited to have you. Yeah it's a treat. Yeah every time I think of you guys, we listen to your podcast, of course, 'cause your friends of ours, but I always think of our trip to IKEA in California, do you remember that? We had one child. Oh yeah. It was so fun. Do you remember that? That was a fun date, yeah. It was, and I don't know what we bought, but I remember it barely fit in our car, and Aaron you helped me fit it in our little Prius that we had in California. Oh, I don't remember. Was it shelves or something? Well it was may more fun for me than it was for you. It actually might have been a crib. As much fun as it was walking around Ikea, I remember we just had really great conversation. Yes, and you only had one child. Did we eat lunch at Ikea? I don't know. Yeah. Yeah, it was one kid, it was a totally different life back then and we were all still fairly new to all of this marriage stuff. So, Yes. Why don't you guys introduce yourselves, who you are, how long you've been married what do you guys do? Sure. Children, stuff like that. Yeah we are the Fredericks and we have been married, it'll be 16 years this year. And we, Wow. Have two little girls named Adelaide and Clementine, they are five and 2 1/2. And we are, yeah we're the voices and authors and everything-- Yeah. I guess behind Fierce Marriage. Yeah. And that is us for now. That's for now. We live in Washington State. The best place in the world. Yeah, just a little bit north and a little better than Oregon state. Stop And a little bit wetter. This is true. Wetter is better. A little bit colder. Awesome, well thank you guys so much for being here. We just know that this is gonna be a great time for our listeners to get to know you, if they don't already, which they probably do. But we are just really excited about this topic. We're jumping into chapter three of Marriage After God, which is the Marks of a Marriage After God and we're just gonna cover two of those topics today. In this interview, yeah. In this interview. But before we do that we wanna get into the icebreaker question. This is just a fun way to-- Let people know us. Yeah. You guys better. Alright, bring it on. So the icebreaker question is, do you have any hobbies together, or separate, or maybe as a family? I think we try to keep our hobbies mostly together these days. Yeah. It's actually contributed to that oneness that we'll get into, but we do have, you know, different passions and things that we enjoy I think separately. I like riding horses, Ryan doesn't like it as much as I do, he'll do it, but. Actually we went, we went on a vacation and we went on 'em. We did, that's right. We rode together and I think I was won over. Yes. It was so fun I had the most amazing, but, what do you call it, a mount, an amazing mount. Your horse was pretty great. Yeah. It was pretty great. So I was actually, I was following along on Insta Stories and I actually became really fond of it too and I can't wait for vacation Aaron of riding horses together. Oh, are you, that's a hint? Yes. Ryan, it looked incredible. Like every time you guys posted I was just like, yes, that looks awesome. Because. What's funny is I have a completely different sentiment to horses, I was raised around horses and my mom always took us riding and I hate it. Oh no. You were responsible for cleaning after them? My sentiment might be different, it's been a long time, but yeah I didn't like the, mucking the stalls and feeding the horses and cleaning them, and yeah, so it was not a fun part of it. We'll pray for you that the Lord will renew your heart for it. But. Thank you, thank you that's awesome. So I just wanted, before we get into a quote from the book, I just wanted to, the reason we, we're interviewing so many different people on this podcast in this series for the, Marriage After God book is we wanna just show the diversity in the body of Christ and just how all of our marriages as we chase after God together and how God wants to use us all for kingdom work in one direction. So I just, I'm excited about that, we love that you guys are doing it, you guys are a marriage after God. And so I just wanna read a quote from chapter three, The Marks of a Marriage After God. It says, "a marriage after God is a team moving together in one mind, one heart, one spirit, and in one direction with their eyes on heavenly and eternal things." Do you guys agree with that? Amen. Oh absolutely. I'm sure you do. Good stuff. Yeah. Good stuff. So in your guys' marriage how have you two cultivated oneness? That's a great question and it is not without a, I think intentionality, I think is the biggest way to be honest. As we've just consciously said that hey we, we need, we're not just roommates, but we need to be on mission together in unity on whatever that mission is. Of course as Christians we have a pretty clear mission right, make disciples and go to the ends of the earth and glorify God and all that good stuff, not necessarily in that order, but, and so I think we've cultivated that by, Selena talked about our hobbies, I think decisions like that, right? So I enjoy different things that I just don't do because they just, they don't add to the family that I feel like God is calling us to. Right. It's harder for us to say yes to things that might take us away from each other for even just a day or sometimes even a couple hours, but on a consistent basis it can kind of, we feel like it kind of breaks away our unity, it kind of chips away at it slowly. If, you know, I'm going and riding horses every Saturday for five hours a day, you know, and that's kind of like our only, it's family time together, so. Or I, you know, I love going to the mountains and the ocean-- I do too. Scuba diving. I like it yeah. And so it's like, we do some of that, but it's like, if it were, we've kind of made a decision that that's the exception and not the rule. Right. It's like you don't owe me time by myself. Right. Right, I feel like that's kind of a cultural mantra, is like you get your time I get mine, you get your money, I get my money and we've just thrown all that out the window, it's our time, it's our money. Not that you can't, you know. Yeah. Not that you can't be generous to each other in those ways, but just as a norm I think that's one way we've done it for us. And early on in our relationship, before we were married or anything, God was always a big part of it. We always talked about what we were learning in the Bible together and, excuse me, and even to this day we're like, what has God been teaching you and just the nature of what we do, and you guys understand this. We're in the word, we're learning about God, we're teaching him to our children. We're constantly being sanctified and learning new things and for me that's, that spiritual oneness has really solidified and grown out of those conversations that we've had together. That's so good. So as you guys communicate, can you just encourage our listeners with maybe what that looks like practically, like if, like how do you cultivate oneness in your marriage if something comes up that, you know, something that one of you wants to do, or one of you is wrestling with, how do you communicate that to each other? Yeah, that's a really good question. It's different obviously for every situation in every marriage and you kinda know what those hot-button topics are, or where those big red buttons are and so you-- Well I feel like you get to know it. Like we didn't just decide not to do things it kind of, as kids came into our life and as we became more unified in our marriage and kind of went through some hard times together, we started, and spent kind of some just time, one-one-one with each other, we started understanding where our boundaries were beginning to fall I feel like a little bit more. Yeah. And go ahead. Well, one of the things I tell guys, and I think it applies to gals as well, but I don't, I'd rather just talk to guys on this topic. Is that, you know, if ever in doubt, if you ever can always be generous, always choose generosity towards your wife, right? If there's a spot where you can give in, what be it a hobby, or an argument, or whatever, be generous, be the one to give in. And there are times when I feel like as a husband and a man, you do need to kinda like, stand your ground on principle or whatever, but I do think those are rare times, right, in most marriages. Right. And so I think cultivating generosity around those conversations is really important meaning that A, like if we're talking about I wanna go hang out with a buddy one night, like so, so actually it's Jeff's birthday today so I'm gonna go and hang out with him tonight, this is a real-life example and Selena didn't even, I didn't even have to ask. She's like hey, Jeff's my best friend, hey, go hang out tonight with him, you know, have a good night and just a-- Right. And so she was generous toward me, I didn't have to-- But it's not a regular battle that we fight. No, no. You know, it's not part of our regular rhythms of life, we've just kind of established that boundary that, you know, we can again ask each other and be generous in these conversations, but, you know, all in all our first disciples are each other and then our children, and then our neighbors and community, so operating from that vision-- Yeah. Inside out kind of is where, is how we, yeah. It does start there. And if you're not unified on those deep things these types of arguments will seem much more significant-- Sure, yep. Than they should be-- True. And they'll hold way more weight then they should be. So, I guess to answer your question Jen, is if, I would say, get on the same page. You might not be unified right now, but get on the same page about the big things, right, and then these types of arguments will have a greater context that they can operate within and that's where the, that's where generosity makes sense, that's where, you know-- Saying no to things. Saying no to things to say yes to each other-- Right. That makes way more sense when you're on the same page about-- Yeah. Why you exist as a couple. Well and I like that you took essentially Ephesians 5:25 and that, you know, that calling to lay down our lives for our wives and love them as ourselves, that's that generosity word. Like of course we're usually first generous to ourselves, right? True. Like well I deserve this or I need the time. So I appreciate that perspective on that, that scripture. And, you know, as being one of the marks of a marriage after God, this oneness idea, I feel like, you know, what you're saying is, all those little decisions that kind of start developing and the way of thinking, you know, it's not like you throw your hobbies out and like you never have them. Right. It's just not the, it's not the default position, the default is what can we do together and so the exception of the rule is like in those times of like, absolutely like, you know, your wife is confident in your, your oneness with her and she's actually excited to let you go have this time and, and you probably would agree with this, whenever that happens in our life often I, actually it's not as enjoyable-- Yes By myself, I'm just like oh I wish my-- Jen was here. Yeah. That's funny. You know and there's times that that's not, you know, not the case, but the oneness I feel like that, that when you said, you know, focus on those big, you know those big topics, I almost feel like it's focus on the, what's the one direction we're going together and then that kind of sets the tone for everything. Because if we both have a different goal in mind, like I want my life to look like this, I want my life to look like this, then every single conversation, every single topic will be a fight because unless it, the other person has aligned with my direction-- Right. It's going to be a fight, it's gonna be a struggle. And so finding that unifying mission, which of course like you said, we all have the same mission, you know, if it's the word of God, if it's what he's doing in this world then we can't, it's easier to lay down-- Right. My pride, my hobbies, my, because I'd be like, well, like currently in this moment that's not going to fulfill our big mission, you know, of being together 'cause now I'm not with my wife in one and we're-- At odds. And there will be a lot of kind of gray, right? So that's like the black and white piece, right, where if a younger couple-- Yeah. Right, they're just, they're heading into marriage, or they just got married, or maybe a couple that's been married for awhile, but they're new to their faith, right? The first piece is okay, what is that mission as people who follow Christ. If we believe he is who he says he is then that should bear weight on every aspect of our lives, okay, then that's the big, that's where we're headed, right, and it's good for a couple, we always encourage couples-- Yeah. To sit down and articulate these things in what we call, a family vision statement, and it's, that includes their mission which is gonna be some, some, what's the word, expression, of the great commission, right? So however that-- Yeah. Plays out in their life, it's gonna be an expression of that if they call themselves Christians and then below that you have, and a lot of couples never do this and it's so important. We hadn't done it until 10 years in our marriage at least. Yeah, and it changed everything-- Yes. And I'm not exaggerating, it changed everything about, in this topic specifically, in unity, because we went through and found in mind our personalities, our relationship for what we call core values, right? So a lot of times we say oh, like in a business context you say our core value is quality, customer service, right? These are ideals, right? Yeah. But for a marriage the core values are things that you actually are whether you know it or not. Things that you care about whether you know it or not, right? So for us we had to realize that we really value, one of 'em is community, right, that's part of that because obviously we're Christian, but we value family and friends and deep relationships with fewer rather than shallow relationships with more, that was one of 'em. -yeah. Adventure, it sounds kind of funny, but adventure's a core value of ours meaning that we wanna live lives that are kinda on the edge, right? Oh, I would agree with that one. Yeah and we're always kind of-- Yeah we use the word extraordinary. Yes. Yeah, I love it. You guys use that in the beginning of your podcast. Um-hum, yeah. Got another one and I can keep going on, I think there's only five, like we tried to keep 'em as few as possible. And then this is part that you were talking about Aaron where you get kind of the expressions that, that kind of, I'd say the more grayer parts of this, is like okay, so how are we gonna decorate our house, right? Or what kind of house are we gonna invest it, not just buy, but invest in because of these core values? Yeah. And so, and those, that third part of the family vision statement is what we call the, envision statement. So like we envision, one of our envision statements is we envision a family that laughs together, we envision a home that is welcoming to, to friends-- Everyone, yeah. And strangers and people and we can feed them. So what, that has all kinds of implications for how we actually set up our lives. How big is our table, right? Like how big is our living room, yeah. They make all the small decisions in essence easier, because they've already got, instead of just starting from scratch every single time on the decision like, well what do we want? You're like well, does this fit into our, what we want? Yep, that's exactly right. Exactly. You know are we gonna spend a thousand hours on this project if it means sacrificing-- Yeah. These other things-- Right. That are core to what we love. And what I love about this is it's, you know, we always talk about well you gotta be on the same page, like that's how you're one, that's how you build unity. It's an easy phrase, yeah. It's an easy phrase to say, but I feel like this is such a practical way to actually get on the same page because you put it down on one page literally. I feel like in the oneness side of things of being able to communicate and we're gonna get into a little bit of this idea of transparency, is once you've both verbalized what oneness looks like, what we agree with, what we believe as a team, what's our central focus. The accountability part of it, you know, of oneness, is hey how you're currently acting or making a decision doesn't align with what we, what you say you believe and what we have agreed on. And we can kind of use those, those foundational things, again, if it's Christ, we can look at each other and be like, hey like that's not really aligning with what we believe in the Bible is it? Like we've said the Bible is a core value of our home and what we align our life with. So I like that you, you know, putting those things down, you guys both have agreed that those are who you are as a family, how you wanna lead, how you wanna live, it makes oneness a lot more practical instead of this ambiguous idea of like, okay, like yeah, we'll, you know, we'll have the same bank account, sure, which is another practical way, but it's not the only thing it's just a piece of the puzzle. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, so-- And it takes time too. I wanna make a note like I think-- A life time, yeah. So many people sit down and they're like, hey, here's, we're gonna take this evening and we're gonna do our family vision statement and then we'll be done forever. And it took us probably three months to get our first draft and then we revisit it-- Kind of after big life things like if you, if you have children and you've never had children before so maybe some of your values, or just the way you wanna spend your time because you now have this other person-- Yes. You know, it changes everything and... Or you move geographically-- Right. Or you get a new job, or God calls you to something and you feel like it's stirring, but it hasn't quite started yet. Yeah, and take time to get there and then you can, you're free to revisit it. Right. So I just think that, I just wanna make sure that people don't feel like they need to get this ironed out in like one sitting-- Yeah. That's good. 'Cause it takes some time to think and pray over it and articulate the ideas. Well that's why we call it a mark of a marriage after God. It's not, it's a thing that we're aiming for. Yeah. Not a, oh we are today perfectly have it ironed out. Yeah. It's like, oh no, this is how we are gonna operate. Yeah. We're gonna think this way and pursue this direction because it's Biblical and it's gonna help us fulfill what God has for us. So as you guys have been pursing oneness in your marriage and being one and actively making choices as one, how have you seen that amplify your effectiveness in building God's kingdom? Oh man, in every meaningful way. Aaron you mentioned going out, right? If you don't feel like, maybe Jen says, hey yeah, go out and have fun or whatever and do something that you wanted to do how you almost don't even like it anymore 'cause she's not there. Yeah, it changes you. You'd rather be with your family. Like that, that sentiment I think, that's just a small I think shadow of truth in terms of that sentiment how it actually impacts your entire life-- Right. When you realize I don't wanna do anything, A, I don't wanna do anything that's not in lockstep with what God is doing, I wanna go where God is moving, I wanna be, I wanna move with him, right, and in that sense I want our family to be in unity and doing that too. Like we, here's a really silly example, but we needed to buy a vehicle-- Yeah. The last year, about a year and a half ago, and it's a big purchase-- I know I hate it, I hate those decisions. You know next to a house it's probably one of the bigger-- It's hard. Yeah, yeah, and we had been kind of wracking our brains, we'd had been, you know, a one-vehicle family, but we had just, we had just had our second daughter and so it was time. It was time to like, to actually face this decision and we just didn't have peace on it, didn't have peace. And it was probably like six months of Selena looking at different cars, looking at different, you know, all the different specs and the different prices and where to get it and all that kind of stuff until finally we had all this stuff, kind of like here's our priorities, we had all that out so we knew what we were looking for we weren't gonna go and just spend a bunch of money. We had an actual like-- Budget. Budget-- Budget envision for the car. Anyway when that decision finally came to make that decision God was so faithful and provided just this really obscure way for us to find the exact right vehicle that he, that was what we were looking for. Wow. And we do think it's a little grace of God to make that plain to us in what happened and that was so easy by the time that, that we felt like we were in unity in that together and we were in lockstep with him that we just walked up and we drove it and we just said, yeah, we'll take it. It was like, there was very little like haggling, all that kind of stuff, it was already there-- Yeah. And so I feel like that happens in big decisions too if you're in ministry right? So you're trying to make a decision in ministry and you find unity, that's where you're just, your heart is only at peace in unity when you get to that place. And peace and unity, I think that's, I mean isn't that the essential definition of peace? Right. There's no chaos, there's no division, I love that. That's so good man, it's so true. Alright, so one of the other seven marks of a marriage after God is transparency. So what does transparency look like in your marriage? We kind of live by this lights on, windows open, doors open, sort of theme. That kind of sets the tone for, not only our marriage, but for our household, we, you know, there's no secrets. There might be some surprises here and there, but we really try to be intentional about like our vocabulary. But the whole transparency thing I think has become a greater peace to our life because of, you know, things like social media and posturing and kind of showing our best moments-- Yeah. And not really being transparent and honest about what our life looks like. You know, how many times do you meet somebody that you maybe have seen on Instagram and you're like, whoa, you're like way different than what I thought. Yeah. You're You're, oh just like me. Yeah, you're normal. Oh good. Yeah and I think that it's so important especially, you know, in unifying us, transparency is such a huge component because if I, if we're not honest with each other about kind of our ugly and about the sin that we face and the dark corners of our heart that we just don't wanna show to anybody, we're not allowing our spouse that space to truly love us and we're not allowing ourselves to live in that freedom that God's calling us to when we are in the light and God sees all that, he knows. We always talk about, right, we're always talking about like when we sin, like God doesn't, he sees the sin, but he also sees the deep motivation of that sin and he still loves us. He knows the depth of why it happened, why we made those decisions and that love is so liberating to us, right, it should be because he's leading us down this path of being known and fully loved, right, and being committed. And so transparency is, I don't think you can have full unity and full oneness without complete transparency. Yeah. I'm gonna be bold there and say that. That's why we tied these two marks together is 'cause we believe the same thing that they're so closely tied. Yeah, and it's, if you're not completely transparent I think it does also hinder your ability to experience and express love. And what I mean by that is that if I, if I say, hey Selena I love you, here's this part of my life that you get to see, but I keep part of it to myself, whether it's shame or a sin, or habitual sin, you know, for guys it's, you know pornography is always a big thing, right, or some sort of thing that I'm hiding from you. Whenever you say, oh I love you as my wife, I'll always be like, yeah, but if you, in my head I'll be like if you really knew me you wouldn't love me. So I'm not gonna, I can't, you don't actually love me, right? It kind of invalidates, until you actually say, here's everything that I've, all my good, bad, and the ugly, and so until you actually do that you're not gonna experience what it means to actually be loved as deeply as I feel we were called to. You know you asked, how does this actually play out? So Aaron I know you've shared some of your, you guys have shared your story with pornography and all that kind of stuff. Yeah. God is very redemptive when we repent and turn from that sin and run to him and run to each other, right? And that's, so the way we do that in our marriage is, you know, that's a guy and anybody who's on the internet you have to be on guard always for like sexual sin, just guy or girl, like you have to be on guard because there's always, always different ways that it gets in front of your face, right, you never even try to get it. And so I, we have an open kind of conversation always where she, the rule is you can ask me, she can ask me anything, anything and I just, I promised no matter how hard it is I'll never lie, right, and that's easier said then done, but it gets easier and easier and so. And then there's obviously open, you know, we have the phone-drop test is another fun little tool that we tell couples about is that at any moment you should drop your phone on the table and your spouse should be able to open that up and go through every app, every email, every text, everything. Oh yeah. I've never heard that term before, but I like that term. You know we've never done that term, we do that, like we know each other's passwords, there's never any-- Yep. Giving that permission. Yeah there, we, yeah we use the word permission if she wants she can grab my phone and-- But I like that, the drop the phone test. And it's not, and the thing distinguishes couples 'cause a lot of couples would be like, well what about my privacy, you know, and A, you don't have privacy in marriage. That's the opposite of, that's the opposite of transparency. And when But B, it's not about, it's not about you're losing privacy it's about building trust and so you kind of, we flip it on it's head and that it's about showing you have nothing to hide as opposed to like, I should be able to hide something if I want to, like that's what privacy, that's all privacy is. Right. And in marriage there's none of that. And there's two stark contrasts in this idea of like, you know, you say, 'cause we've had couples say the same thing, like well, you know, that's just not, there's no trust there if they have to check my phone. But if you even have that heart in the first place you are hiding something, and right, and so if I'm telling my wife, hey, I want to walk in purity and holiness before my father in heaven and God has given you as my helper and therefore you have permission at any time to walk with me and help me be this, that man. That's a different position of, well you should just trust me and you shouldn't have to look at my phone. It's humility versus pride. Right. It's a whole different posture. And what happens is, my wife rarely has a desire to do that unless she has a spirit like, you know, hey there's something I'm discerning that, you just seem off, are you walking okay? And usually she doesn't even have to look at my phone where I am at, like you're saying, I confess, right? Um-hum, yeah. Because my purpose is not to just remove the shame and feel better in my marriage I actually fear God and want to please him. And so it's such, it's such a different mentality of just protecting my flesh versus, no actually I wanna be made like Christ. And-- Yep, just nailed it. Wow, wow. Yeah, so transparency is an important, actually when I asked the question I was thinking about this idea of transparency. And the point of transparency is to see through and, you know, if we're lights in this world, the light doesn't come from us it comes from Christ and the more opaque we are, like the harder to see through we are, the less light can emit from us. The less that light can be seen in us because you can't see through us to Christ-- Yeah. And I feel like that needs to be first exemplified in marriage and it's-- So if you're not transparent you're not being effective for spreading the gospel. Well you can't-- Yep. You're a liar. And actuallY this mental, so you just hit the nail on the head in terms something we are right in the thick of. Yeah. Because we, you've used all the buzz words Aaron, it's so funny. I don't know if you're reading my mail or what, but we are writing a new book, it's totally, we're writing a new book called, See Through, and it's that-- Wow. That whole attitude of we are called to not be opaque, but to be see through, transparent, and to-- So that God's light can shine-- God' light shines through us-- Oh yes. Albeit imperfectly. Yeah. Because we see it currently dimly, yeah. In a stained-glass window, right, you've got different colors, different shapes, different fractures, but it ends up being a beautiful picture because God's light is what makes it beautiful, even more beautiful than if we were perfect and, you know, and perfectly clear, right? He somehow uses our sin to make himself more glorified and more known because we live in a sin-filled world, but he's redeeming it right? And so you're absolutely, you nailed it, it's like that idea of being totally, of being not opaque, being see-through and letting God shine through you. I mean that's, that's what transparency is all about it's not about how can I just have what I want it's how can I be a vessel through which God shines. It's awesome. That's so powerful you guys. Thank you so much for sharing that and now I'm really excited to read that. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if our publisher's gonna be mad at us for saying that or not. It's not official-- It's not an official name. If we're writing the book it's the unofficial name, so. That's awesome. Yeah, I love that, oh man so I think, yeah I just also think, just in the terms of marriage, a mark of a marriage after God. When we're not transparent we're not, we're pursuing ourselves, right, you know, because if I'm hiding sin, or if I'm hiding, you know, experiences in my life or things I'm going through, like you said, all we're doing is masking and we're covering up and we're trying to present ourselves a certain way. So we're not actually after God at all, we're after ourselves, and avoiding some discomfort or some pain, and so the picture we're trying to show, that opaqueness, we're just trying to show, we're manufacturing something which is not love at all 'cause I'm not letting my wife love me I'm letting her love a picture of me. You know and I'm not loving her by hiding who I am. I'm hiding, we're hiding the truth which is unloving, so, and, so I just love that you guys are advocates of that, that you not only advocate it, but you walk it out. We found it to be transformational on a personal level, both my relationship with, our relationship as spouses, but also our relationship with friends of the same sex-- Oh yeah. Right, that's transformational in that sense as well, but also in community with other families and other couples. We've had some really, some of the most transformational and brutal conversations that we've had have been in context of church community and that's such a big part of transparency. I think a lot of couples have kind of forsaken that part of the church, right? They kind of figure church is a Sunday morning thing, it's a Easter and Christmas thing, it's a check the box on a demographic-quiz thing, like I'm a Christian. But like that's how, that's how we're called to live in Christian community, right, and so transparency there, like we can never, we always push couples like, we consider ourselves like air-traffic controllers, right, people that come to us for answers-- Yeah. We're just like, we just point them to Christian community-- Exactly. 'Cause that's how you can move through it. Can you share some of the benefit for those listening, like what's the benefit of being transparent with other believers? So your holiness and righteousness, you know, unto the Lord I think is the biggest benefit because they'll be able to look at your life more objectively. Well and as a marriage we kinda, some friends of ours, we kind of walk, we go to them when we have kind of a struggle and we can't seem to figure it out, we feel a little stuck. And we'll go to them knowing that, you know, when you have dinner with another couple you're gonna heed your words a little bit more, right, you're gonna-- And you're gonna filter a little bit more, yeah. You're gonna have that, you're gonna make sure you're saying what you want to say-- What you mean to say not just-- Yes, what you feel like saying. And so, but having those, having that couple that we know is grounded in the gospel, that knows the word, that is in tune with the spirit, that loves the Lord and wants, they're advocating for us, they're not trying to pin us against each other, but they're advocating for our relationship, that's huge. And they love us. And they love us-- Yeah. And they know us and we want them to know us. Like we want to be known by them-- Yeah. Cause we can't see, we're stuck-- Yeah. We can't seem to figure this out we need our community, we need them to point us back to Jesus, point us back to the word, the Bible, ask us the hard questions and in love knowing that we're gonna get past this we're gonna get through this. In our little circle of church we have this, we turned the word gospel into a verb, right, so when somebody's like forgetting who they are in Christ we'll say-- Yeah, preach the gospel. We'll just gospel you for a second. Yes. We'll remind you-- Yeah. That God is good, that he's sovereign, and he's gracious and he's working in this and that's just so often, like being transparent. If you go, like most church groups you go to, you're just like, oh let's talk through the curriculum, let's talk through the study and we'll just go home and we'll have-- Yeah what are you learning there? We'll have food and we'll go home. But man church community is so much more then that. You say, hey how are you actually means, how are you doing, not just an excuse for you to say good, busy, right? Yeah. And then for the listener to sit there and actually listen and wait, you know, even if that means you have to wait a little bit longer instead of just passing by. Right because you truly are asking, not just facetiously or, you know, it's the norm. Yeah. You know, oh hey, how's it going? Yeah. You know I think about, you know, the reason we bring this up, the purpose of you guys being one in your marriage and being transparent in your marriage and all of the other marks that we talk about in the book, isn't just for your marriage, that's the place you practice doing exactly what you just said, because we're commanded in the word of God to be in one mind and spirit with the body of Christ. And in the same way you can't be one with your wife without being transparent and you can't be one with your husband without being transparent and you can't have that unified, unification, without that singleness of mission. It's the same thing in the body of Christ, what you're exactly saying, is the whole reason it's important for us to have this mentality in our homes. Yeah. Yeah, well how you love Christ's bride, how you love Christ if you don't love his bride, right? You can't it's impossible. No, you can't, that's why I get so-- Yeah, John tells us we are liars if we say that we love God and don't love his people. Right, right, that's why I get so just, I think furious is the right word, when you see like Christians that are just constantly just kind of making satire, making fun of the local church, right? I know that Christians are weird in some regards-- Good, yeah we, should be a difference. In a lot of cultural things. And then kind of make, their cringey, right, but there's also like, this is the, this is the bride of Christ and so there's, there always has to be that edifying kind of redemptive side to those types of conversations. And so, yeah, I think in your marriage this is just, yeah, that's why I love marriage, it's a mirror of the gospel in so many different, it's like a multifaceted diamond, right? Yeah, yeah. There you go. It's just, you see 'em at different angles and you see the gospel in it and that's one of the things is when you learn how to, you know, be transparent with your wife and with each other in marriage and that kind of gives you an idea of what it's like to be transparent with Christ's bride, with the church, right, and actually live in vulnerability, not just so you can look, you know, navel gaze and feel bad about yourselves and go home and be ashamed, but so that you can work toward righteousness, so you can be known, and so you can experience-- Yeah. A greater depth of grace and love, right? That's so good. You guys are such good encouragers and advocates for marriage online through your ministry, through your resources and everything. One quote that stood out to me that you guys had posted awhile back said this, "transparency, the best opportunity for intimacy happens when you're fully known and fully loved." And I just love that, I love the way you worded it, I love everything about it, and I think so many people are craving that right now. They're craving intimacy, they wanna be fully loved and maybe they don't know how to be fully known because they're afraid. And so I just wanna ask, how would you encourage those listening today, those people who want to experience this intimacy whether it's with God, with their spouse, with other believers, but they're afraid or something's holding them back, what would you say to them? Well I think it's important to,, excuse me, know what God's word says, you know, about fear and how perfect love drives out fear, there's no fear in perfect love. And so understanding that, you know, first of all we are loved, we are loved in Christ, and our identity can be rooted there because of what he's done and because of who he is. Yep. And,, excuse me, because he loves us, he knows us fully and completely and he loves us fully and completely and it's unconditional and he knows the depths of our souls and he still loves us and that's, and I think that's such an example and model for us, right, because only like, I don't, I don't feel any more experienced love like Christ to the extent, I can't, I don't know how I'm trying to say this, I experience it to the extent that I'm like transparent and known, right? Right. The more that I'm known the more that I am able to show my weaknesses and confess pride or, you know, just my anger or whatever. The more I, I am hopeful of, like your love Ryan, but hopeful also and knowing and just being able to rest in the fact that God loves me still, even in this moment and he's still like, while we were still sinners he died. Yep. Yeah. Wow. That reality is I think the path, understanding that full reality is the path toward the side of transparency that, that will get you to that side of feeling fully loved, right? So-- Yeah. That fear, and Selena you're speaking to it so well, is that fear is what keeps us from taking that leap because we feel like, well what if I jump and they don't love me? Yeah. Yeah. Or what if I jump and my spouse can never forgive me-- Yeah. Or our relationship's never the same and to be honest it probably will never be the same, but if we trust God it will be better. Yeah. It will be different and better. And how powerful. And there's joy. And how powerful it is when we do and we are transparent and we are still loved. It's such a powerful experience. Yeah, I think of that scripture that says, he who has been forgiven much loves much. And I-- That's the one I was trying to think of And I often, but I've often thought of it as like, oh, maybe I struggle with love because I didn't have much to be forgiven of and other people have and, but that's not what that scripture says. The scripture is saying, he who loves much, or he who has been forgiven much loves much, and the idea is that we all have been forgiven like that man who owed the ten thousand talents to that ruler. We are not the other one, we are the one that owes the unfathomable amount and so-- It's like 70 billion. Yeah whatever it is. Dollars equivalent or something. And the point is, is the one who recognizes how much he has been forgiven loves much. And that often-- Yeah. That has to be, you know, it says Jesus knows us, or he wants to know us, right? And we become known by confession, by transparency, by say, Lord this is who I am. And he already knows all, right, so, but he wants us-- To offer it. To offer it to him, like here is who I am, here's what I've done, here's how I think, change me, have it, you know. Right. Well it goes all the way back to the garden, right, when Adam and Eve sinned and they're hiding-- I know. And God's walking in the garden and says, where are you, it's not that he like, he lost them, he wasn't like, oh shoot, where'd they go? They ran away-- He wants them to reveal themselves. They got out of the cage. Like he wants us to have-- Recognize. That realization-- Yeah. Of our depth of need and that's what we call, I mean it's not just us calling it, but it's the full gospel, right? Yeah. Yep. The gospel is two parts, one I am extremely sinful, lost, and without hope, that's the first part. Then, so that's the bad news which makes, makes room for the good news, makes way for the good news which is, Christ has paid that price, he has brought you close, he has given you hope, he has saved you. And so if you can picture with me like a ramp that's going up, like if that's our view of God, the holiness of God, and then a ramp that's going down is our view of ourself, right, our view of our need and our depravity without Christ. The gap that it creates in between the top of the ramp and the bottom of the ramp, I'm looking, it's like a big PAC-Man thing, and that gap is the need for our savior. So the greater view of God the lower view of ourselves, the greater the need for a cross, or Christ, to fill that gap to make, and so that makes much of Christ, right? And less of us. And so if you-- Yeah. And less of us, and so it makes for a really big cross. So if minimize God's holiness we minimize our sin, we have a tiny Jesus. We have an impotent Jesus. Yeah. Right and so that's, that's how I think we overcome that fear and realize like, this fear that I have of being rejected is no match to the fear that I have without Christ, but I've been given Christ. Praise God. I have identity with him and therefore I can be transparent with you trusting that my identify is secure in him regardless of what happens here and he will work it for my good, right, Romans 8:28. Thanks for preaching the gospel man. We, you know, that's been on our hearts more is just more and more preaching of the gospel, we just, we need people to recognize that we are sinners-- Yes. And we are retched and we deserve nothing and yet God loved us so much he sent his son to save us if we believe in his name, you know? Changes everything. Oh yeah. So I wanna ask you a last question before we close in prayer. In your own words-- Sure. What is a marriage after God? I'd say a marriage after God is one that is obviously Christ-centered and is transparent and unified and on mission to make his name great. Praise God. You just used all the buzz words right there. There you go. I've been keeping notes. Buzz words are good, yeah. No, I fully agree with that. I think on mission is key, but the thing, that's a really loaded statement, right-- Yeah. When you're on mission that means so many different things. Transparency is one of those things, being unified in mission is one of those things. Self sacrifice. So. The gospel-- Yes. All of that. Yes. Yeah, Christ-centered and on mission and because of that transparent in all, all of the above so. Amen. So hopefully that answered the question. Yeah. Yeah no it's great. Thank you guys so much for being with us today this has been incredible. I just know that our listeners are walking away today with a lot to think about and hopefully feel inspired. Where can they follow you guys if they wanna hear more from you? Thank you guys, you guys are amazing, you've been a resource to us since day one. Yep. And it's just, man, we love. I love how the Bible just pours out of you guys. Yes. So good. Thank you. Even though we live five hours away I feel like, I feel like that's not an excuse, we should hang out a lot more. So it's on the record now you guys. Right. We'll see you this year. As far as resources go, we just, we have books at, fiercemarriage.com and, shop.fiercemarriage.com, just devotionals. We also have our podcast, The Fierce Marriage, podcast, so if people want us they'll find us. Yeah, just Google, Fierce Marriage, they're everywhere. Yes. There you go. Yeah, you guys have been doing this almost as long as we have, huh? No, you guys are the original gangsters. Yep. You guys were in like three or four years, before and Jen's the original gangster. Yeah Jennifer is, yeah. It has been awhile. Awesome. So Jennifer why don't you pray for us and then we'll close out. Okay, dear Lord we pray we would be husbands and wives who pursue intimacy with you. We pray we would make ourselves known to you and known to each other. Help us to walk with each other in an understanding way and to love unconditionally. Thank you for the gift of oneness in marriage and what it represents. We pray we would operate as one every day in our marriage relationship. Holy Spirit continue to empower us to do so. Help us to be transparent with one another. Help us to be great listeners as well. May truth be exposed and may your presence be evident in our lives. Thank you for marriage and thank you for salvation. You are a good God and we love you. May our hearts align with yours as we chase boldly after you and pursue a marriage that reflects your love story. In Jesus' name, amen. Amen. Amen. Amen. Thank you everyone that's been listening to this episode. We love the Fredericks and we'd love for you to go check them out at their podcast, The Fierce Marriage podcast. And also get their books. Yeah. Their books are really good. And so, thanks for listening. We have a bunch of more episodes, a bunch of more interviews coming up in the coming weeks so please stay tuned. We'll see you next week. [Announcer] Did you enjoy today's show? If you did it would mean the world to us if you could leave us a review on iTunes. Also if you're interested you can find many more encouraging stories and resources at, marriageaftergod.com and let us help you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.

Erica Wright is the founder of U FIRST, INC., a charitable organization dedicated to serving the homeless with the basic necessities in efforts to restore their dignity and help them to lead a healthy and whole life. For more about Erica and U First. Read more about The Passionistas Project.   FULL TRANSCRIPT: Pop Culture Passionistas: [00:00:00] Hi and welcome to The Passionistas Project Podcast. We're Amy and Nancy Harrington and today we're talking to Erica Wright founder of the nonprofit organization U First Inc., a charitable organization dedicated to serving the homeless with the basic necessities in an effort to restore their dignity to lead a healthy and whole life. So please welcome to the show Erica Wright. Erica Wright: [00:00:21] Hi. Thank you guys so much for having me. I am just excited to be here, excited to talk about what we're doing with U First and our journey of homeless love. Pop Culture Passionistas: [00:00:29] What are you most passionate about? Erica Wright: [00:00:32] Right now, I'm definitely passionate about helping the homeless community bringing dignity back to their lives. I've experienced being homeless myself and I know what it feels like to meet someone. Sometimes your ego will allow you not to want to reach out to people. And so I just had a great group of people around me supporting me who pour it back into me even in the time of need. And s o the spirit has never left me. And even at a young age I've always felt like we could always do more because of the things that we have and so it's just been a passion of mine and to just give back to those in need. Pop Culture Passionistas: [00:01:04] How does that translate into what you do for a living? Erica Wright: [00:01:07] We do so many things that you U First. The passion is just not for our homeless community but as for those who are in need. So, it could be our children, who are in need with school supplies. Food. But my passion of helping the homeless community by keeping them clean is to put together these love acts we call them and they're just simple necessities of life like a washcloth, toothbrush, toothpaste, the things that we take for granted. And so it packaging these items and giving those to the people in need whether they're in shelters or under the bridge. I have a phrase of I believe everyone has a seat at the table. So Why not be able to get up in the morning and feel that love and sense of belonging, just from a small kit like a love bag. And that's truly my passion to do that. Put a smile on someone's face. Pop Culture Passionistas: [00:01:52] How did that journey start? What was the seed of the idea to start doing this and how did it develop? Erica Wright: [00:01:56] About 10 years ago, I saw this lady under the bridge, literally using a bottle of water to wash her hair. And It was cool that morning and I could see the steam coming from her head and it never left my spirit. I went through a bad breakup and I knew that I had a purpose and a passion and I needed to birth something. And so, August the 7th, 2014, I woke up from a dream and God had given me a vision. And I was like Paul, I just wrote out all of the things that were going to come forth with helping people and the name U First came about. And so, I didn't know what it was going to look like I didn't have any money and didn't have any credit and I had a blueprint. So, I heard this whisper, truly from God to use social media. And so what I would do, I spoke at Sunday school about my passion and my dream and my vision and two ladies from Sunday school started bringing hygiene items for the love bags. So I was able to put the kits together and that's how it started. So once people started getting engaged, with it I post it on social media and I would say, "Hey thank you Miss Jackson for donating two tubes of the toothpaste." And It just became contagious people from all over the place, I mean different states would just send items. And it's just been it's been amazing. Pop Culture Passionistas: [00:03:11] Tell us where it started, location wise, and how you've expanded it. Erica Wright: [00:03:16] U First was birthed in Atlanta, Georgia. That's my hometown — born and raised. I have, this year, have been so about 19 different states. I had an opportunity to come to L.A. about three years ago and when I saw Skid Row, I just stood there and I cried. I could not believe that people were living in such deplorable circumstances. Not just people of my age, There were children men and women. It is just heartbreaking to see that. So a part of my journey this year, I wanted to really see what the states for doing, The little cities, different pockets, and what they were doing in their community and that I could bring back to the city of Atlanta and preferrably other places as we continue the journey. So right now our home base is in Atlanta. We work out of a storage unit there and sometimes we may have three storage units depending on the resources that we are able to obtain and put those items together. So We do not only hygiene kits, we do socks, blankets. We have different corporate sponsors, who make sure that we have things that we need to put into our kits. So hopefully next year we will branch out a little bit more in the L.A. area. Our goal is secure RV so that we can travel from different states and bless people at where they are. Pop Culture Passionistas: [00:04:25] Talk about the accomplishments that you were able to make in 2017 and your goals for 2018 and if you've met them. Erica Wright: [00:04:33] So last year we did over 220,000 blankets that were donated from Delta Airlines. So we touch lives in the shelters and people who live under the bridges. Also this year, God gave me a awesome number of a hundred thousand and I was like, "What Am I going to do with that?" And so the goal this year was to do 100,000 hygiene kits. And so to-date, we've done over 85,000 kits. Next year, of course, we have to go. So you know when I take it to the team and I say, "What do we think about 150,000?" I'm sure they're going to say, "Erica go sit down." But we're definitely looking to change more lives. Pop Culture Passionistas: [00:05:11] What do you need to reach your goal? Erica Wright: [00:05:22] We definitely need the resources. We depleted our inventory basically. We drove from Atlanta to New York in October. We did 18,000 kits. That was the largest number, the second drive we did. The first drive we drove from Atlanta to California and we did 11,000 kits. So right now storage is a little strained. We're asking the community to donate those items that we have on our wish list through our website which is ProjectUFirst.org. Again people from different places send items through to our P.O. Box. And so every second Saturday of the month, we come together and put the kids together. So always looking for volunteers, always looking for people who would like to maybe just write encouraging letters to the homeless and we'll put them in the kit as well. And so we have had people from Indiana just send those letters. But We're just always looking for people to get involved and to help give back. And it's U First that's what we do put people first. Pop Culture Passionistas: [00:06:15] Tell us about the Love Lives Here event that you held this fall. Erica Wright: [00:06:18] The Love Lives Here, it came to me of course in one of my awesome dreams about 3:30 in the morning when I wake up and I'm like oh my God, so what does this look like? So part of the Love Lives Here tour is to meet people where they are. One of the things that I've learned with doing this work is that people have a perception of what they think being homeless means and it is a broad, broad statement when you say homelessness. And so for me, I wanted to, again, meet people where they are and show them love where they live. And so that's why we call it the Love Lives Here tour. So again we drove from Atlanta, Georgia to New York City again dispersing over 18,000 hygiene kits. And we stopped in every state. We stepped in every state along the way. We actually had a chance to sit down with CEOs of different shelters to talk about how they got into opening up the shelter and what does it look like for their state — you know the population and so on and so forth. So the Love Lives Here tour, Once we were able to just start taking a journey from when we came from Atlanta to California, it opened up our eyes that this thing is really serious. Like We're experiencing so many of our LGBTQ youth, who run away, Who just don't know how to come out and present. And so these kids need safe places that they can go. But then there is the politics of the whole homelessness situation where, youth or a certain age that some states can't technically have a shelter for them. And so you run into all of these roadblocks when it comes to political this or that. And so I think it's important for us to really just sink into where people live. They are under the bridge and this is their circumstance right now, whether they know to do better, either through mental illness or they want to do better, I just think that we should have the resources to be able to help them where they are. That's why we call it Love Lives Here. We just love people where they were. Pop Culture Passionistas: [00:08:12] Are you finding any politicians along the way that are being super supportive of your mission? Erica Wright: [00:08:19] That is something that I'm still in search of. We do have support in Atlanta. Of course, being raised there I know a lot of people of course use the social media and people just see what we're actually doing in a community has spark some conversation from our city council and those who work close at City Hall. But at the end of the day it's one of these markets, there are a lot of people who are giving back in a city like Atlanta, so it can become saturated and you can kind of sometimes get looked over. I myself talk about doing this work and I am not a heterosexual male, who has a family, who's able to just have that seat automatically at the table and I have found it a little challenging you know presenting as a gay person to be able to kind of tap into other avenues when it just comes to just helping people. And so I would like to see a little bit more support, not just in the homeless communities of the shelters, but those people who are actually, the grassroots organizations who are out on the ground, who are out here every day making sure people are fed and have the simple necessities of life. So, of course, I would love to see more politicians get involved in this effort to help people get off the streets. Pop Culture Passionistas: [00:09:31] Would you ever get into politics yourself? Erica Wright: [00:09:33] It was funny I was just talking about that yesterday. I don't know but I do know when I started this I didn't know what it was going to look like. Now that I'm in it, I'm in it to win. I believe that we all have a fight in this to whatever your justice is whatever that is. And so I won't rule it out to say that I won't rule it out. But if there's something that I'm considering doing I would love to be able to do it from the standpoint from where the people are, from not the inside out but the outside it. And I think that that's what's missing right now in America. We have a lot of politicians that are working this way and not understanding what the people need and hearing the voices of the people. And I think that that was something I would consider. I was started that way. Pop Culture Passionistas: [00:10:21] So you said you're in it to win it. So what would winning look like to you? Erica Wright: [00:10:26] Winning to me would look like every homeless person that I've ever seen liked to come off the street that they would have a place to do that. And oftentimes, even just doing his work this year with the Love Lives Here tour going to different places, we were able to have conversations with different people. We're talking about doctors and lawyers. And we're talking about nurses. We're talking about students. And so there's no face to it. You know it's not about race. It's not about your gender. It's not just about your sexual orientation. It is just that, your misfortune or you know we were just talking about the fires here in L.A. These people now are homeless. The work that we're doing right now is to support people where they are. So in it to win it for me is not where somebody could tell me what I can and can't do. Well I've had people say you can never get grants just for health and hygiene items. Well, I don't believe that. And guess what we need them but we didn't just write off them. But to tell me that I can't do something when I see people who are living in situations that, a lot through no fault of their own, so what's happening is am I supposed to tell someone that you have a bite that I don't have Neosporin for you or if you need something, you're hungry and I don't have food for you. So I believe that just having someone to be able to give those people who are experiencing homelessness what they need, that's why I fight. So I want to win at helping them get exactly what they need, where they are. And I won't allow people to tell me it can't be done because in the last four years we've been able to do it and do it with no grant money so I'm definitely in it to win it. Pop Culture Passionistas: [00:12:06] What can your average person do to help the homeless and also what do we need the politicians to do? What changes need to happen? Erica Wright: [00:12:14] On the home front of the politicians, it's a stroke of a pen is a stroke of a conversation, it's just striking up the conversation at the table with, again, the people who are out doing the grassroots work who are having the conversations, the tough conversations. And then seeing what the people need. For instance, when I first started I was given people on the street luggage and they would say, "Do you have a book bag?" And so you know you identified where they are and what the needs are. And so I think that's the beginning of that — having a seat at the table with the politicians to say, ,"Hey, we're doing the work. Why are you cutting this funding?" Also we have a lot of children who go to school who are homeless. We have to start there as well. If you have kids that are coming and they're not able to eat. They don't have proper school supplies. All of that trickles down back into the homeless community growing because of education, because of lack of jobs, Because of this. And All of that starts with the politicians at the table. And so what we look for in the community to help, I often tell people you don't have to give money, especially if you don't have it. But just that if I'm making a sandwich in the morning maybe I'll make two or you cut off a section of that and just have it on the seat. I mean if you encounter someone, just you know politely ask if they would like something to eat or you can do hygiene kits on the front of your seat, socks, nutritional bars. And that's another part about what we see in the homeless community because they don't get what they need, we see a lot of people who are suffering from diabetes, mental illness, and they're not getting the medication that they need. Just the simple things like maybe clean needles for diabetics. And so again all of that plays a part of someone being whole and healthy so that they can be productive citizens and to get back into society. And you can just start with a hygene kit. Because If you're not able to groom yourself, then the trickle down effect of your health can just be something that can even prolong your ability to get off of the streets and into society. Pop Culture Passionistas: [00:14:16] You mentioned that you've had your own experiences being homeless but what have you learned about a lot of the people that are on the streets that either has surprised you or might surprise people listening? Erica Wright: [00:14:30] I never thought in a million years that I would tell this story. I came from a great home. Two loving parents, sisters and brothers. I'm a barber by trade, so great career. And I just fell into life. And so even through my experience I think the hardest thing for me. Everything was a trickle down effect. I lost my health insurance. I have been diagnosed with bipolar and anxiety. And so I couldn't get my medicine. And so it was just a downward spiral from being here to just here. And so for me it took everything I had, every day, just get up in the morning. And I wanted to commit suicide. I wanted to die. And I got up one morning off the floor in the office where I stayed and I saw this lady sleeping in a cardboard box and it was raining. And so for me God me the vision that Erika you know different from the lady behind you. The difference is you just have a covering over your head. And so in having different conversations with different people knowing my own struggle with mental illness I would say probably ninety-five percent of people who are on the streets have some type of mental disability. I think for me just anyone with a normalcy about themselves and have to experience certain things at some point, battle depression or something like that. And so just having conversations with those people who are in need, you see through that. You see through that wall and see through that barrier because it was you, it was your story. It might not have been this. It might have been that. But at the end of the day you can kind of resonate with where they are and that's how you want people to see you as a person and not your experience of you're just not defined in your location or where you live. So it is very hard to see people who are not able to articulate what they need and where they are based on their mental status. And so this is again where we need the politicians to come in to have that tough conversation. So how do we get someone off the street who has mental illness? How do I identify and how do we not cross that red tape to what we can and cannot do? And I think at some point people have to make a decision because these people are experiencing this. They're walking around in our community and we have a blind eye to it. And I think that we have to do a better job of identifying it and also what can you do legally to get people off the street and get them the help that they need. And I think that's going to be probably one of the challenges that I can see facing you know for anyone a politician or any a grassroot organization because you just can't take someone's rights to take off them the street. Pop Culture Passionistas: [00:17:19] You talked about not feeling motivated when you were battling depression and it seems like what was your lowest point. But now you seem like your boundless energy for this cause. What do you do on days when you don't feel motivated to do it? Erica Wright: [00:17:33] You know to be honest there are a lot of days that I struggle. Depression is real you know. And a lot of people follow my social media and they're like, "Oh my God, Erica, you're always so bubbly so cheery." That's what gets me up in the morning to know that I'm making a difference in someone's life. And the people that have come in contact with U First — the volunteers, the donors, the well wishers — it's justbeen amazing. It's just been an amazing journey. I've met so many different people, who just, they have the same spark. So just to know that they're even putting the kits together and they may not even give it to someone but just the part that they know they have a place in this organization that they can help someone. It's just been amazing. So those are the stories that make me get up in the morning and once I get out of bed and I know that I'm about to go out and feed someone or give out socks or go to a school and speak. Just to inspired someone, that's definitely what drives me to keep moving. And the winning situation, what did it look like if we had shelters here when we looked like we had an opportunity to drive from California to Vegas. And I'm thinking about all of this land out here like we shouldn't have everyone just saturated in this dense populate dense area. You know so much out here we could just use it. And why not? I've seen it even in Oklahoma, they have a huge shelter where I say it, whatever your it is. If you have HIV, women with children, men with children, families. They had a place for everyone who's even you want to sleep there. You're just coming in for a shower. Whatever your group activities are, they had something for everyone. So when you see something like that in another state you think why can't this be across the board. Even with this whole thing was what's going on with the war, everybody's so divided, you're either a Democrat or you're republican. To me what happened to humanity? What happened to people? What happened to love? What happened to seeing my neighbor get up and be all that they can be? I mean, When did we stop just loving and being energized of people in itself? So Yeah, I get that. Pop Culture Passionistas: [00:19:49] What's the biggest challenge? It sounds like the whole thing is a challenge. But what's your biggest challenge? Erica Wright: [00:19:55] Of course, resources. Definitely money. Finances. Just this year with over 80,000 hygene kits, we did it probably with less than thirty thousand dollars less than $30,000. And basically all of the inventory that we got in was donated. So I'm often amazed at how we do things with the amount that we have. But I'm also energized because I can imagine what we could do with a hundred thousand dollars so resources would be number one thing that we would run into that hurdle.  Pop Culture Passionistas: [00:20:29] Have you ever thought of giving up? Erica Wright: [00:20:30] Oh my gosh. Yes. There was one day I was going to throw in the towel. And of course by being a barber by trade I would do mobile haircuts. I have a guy who's in a wheelchair. So this particular morning I was like I'm just done, I'm done. So he wrote me a check and I left. And I had 20 dollars in my pocket. And so I saw this lady a homeless lady. She had all of her cans and bags in her shopping cart. And I said you know what I got some luggage in my trunk that somebody donated. I'm out, I'm going to give this out and I'm done. So I pulled over and I got out of the car, spoke to the lady and she was kind of talking a little bit out of her head. And she came over to the back of the car and she said, "I knew you were coming." And I said, "Excuse me." She said, "I knew you were coming." She said, "You know somebody stole my luggage last week." And I was like, thinking to myself, "No, I don't even know you." And so, I started to cry because when I opened the trunk, I had the luggage. And so it was as if God had sent an angel to to to say to me, "I have your back." And so right before I pulled off the Holy Spirit told me to plant a seed and give her the 20 dollars. And I was like no way I got to get gas, I got to take care of this, I gotta get something to eat. And so I turned around and gave her to twenty dollars. And she looked at it and she kind of started talking out of her head a little bit. And she turned around to me and looked me in my eyes and she said, "When you get your 501c3, doors and windows will open up beyond anything you can imagine." And I knew then that that was God's way of letting me know that I will always supply your needs and not to worry just keep doing what you're doing. And I cried, she cried. And I said, "God I never give up. I will never throw in the towel." So, that was one of those incredible moments in my life. Never forget it. Never Forget her.  Pop Culture Passionistas: [00:22:22] What's one lesson you've learned throughout the time doing this that really sticks with you? Erica Wright: [00:22:27] The lesson that I've learned is to be open. Never be closed off. There will be people that will come and help. There will be people that will come and pray with you and pray on you. And I'm still learning. Again It didn't come with a blueprint. So I think my biggest challenge is, because I don't have the business blueprint to go with it, I'm often asking a lot of questions, going to different seminars, trying to figure out how do we sustain this is. It's not something that we're just doing for now. Definitely have a presence, not just in the city of Atlanta and Californian but we want to go global. And so along with that the challenge for me every day is just to dig into what I know and stretch my hands a little bit to what I don't know. And so far it's going pretty good. Can't complain. Pop Culture Passionistas: [00:23:18] And what's been the most rewarding part so far? Erica Wright: [00:23:20] Oh my God. To save people's faces, conversations, they will never leave my spirit. I have so many different testimonies, I can't even begin just one. I think the children definitely play a big impact on my heart. There is an innocence about a child and there's a different innocence about children who don't know about student loans, who don't know about foreclosure. They don't know that you know mom is having a bad day. They don't know that I am sleeping on one side of the shelter and my brother has to sleep on the other side because he's too old and we don't have enough family unit. So to see a child running your car to get a sandwich or a Bandaid or just whatever they need and to just play and hold right where they are and just don't even know that they don't have a place to stay, a room to go in. Those are the things that stay in my spirit. Those are the faces that I see in the morning. Those are the faces of sleep if I'm going to sleep. And I definitely want to keep doing what I'm doing. Pop Culture Passionistas: [00:24:26] Looking back on your journey so far, is there one moment that you can think, that was really courageous of me and it totally changed the path that I'm on? Erica Wright: [00:24:38] I came to LA and I was supposed to go to Rancho Cucamonga. And I thought, "Okay, well I'll just ride the train." When I get to the train station, it was closed. So I was standing outside of Union Station at about 3:30 in the morning. I was like, oh my God. I'm in a place I don't know and I'm outhere, what is like, what do I do. And so I sat down on a bench and I saw all of the homeless people walking around, moving with their cars. Aand I'm saying, "It's 3:30 in morning. Like why not sleep?" And it hit me how this whole community of people are maneuvering and being, while we're asleep in our comfortable beds and it just hit me like this is a real. Although It's a hygiene kit, it opened up the door for so many different avenues for me to see people where they are. And so the next morning when I got myself situated I had to come back to being a station and I saw the people laying in a park. So a lot of times I hear people say well they're lazy they need to go get a job why is sleeping in a minute a day. Because they're up all night because of the abuse and being raped and molested. It's just so much that this community is embedded in and dwells in. And so for me to see that, and then to see them out open because they don't want anyone to mess with their belongings because that's all they have. And so that night, morning was something that would never leave my spirit and I know that it made it impact on my life to continue to do what I'm doing. Pop Culture Passionistas: [00:26:28] You've mentioned your mom a couple of times. Tell us about her and what lessons she taught you when you were young about what women could and couldn't do. Erica Wright: [00:26:37] Oh wow. Well my mom was a stay at home mom. And I just thought she was Superwoman. She could do everything. She could cook. And she took us to basketball practice. And she was also a giver. My family, every Thanksgiving and Christmas, they would adopt a family from Family Children's Services. And we would go and drop off the Christmas items and I would go home and I would look up under my tree and I'm like, "This is not fair." Like how could I leave this lady and she has all these kids and I have so much. But my mom, her strength is, is incredible. She's 80 years old right now but I still see her do things that a 20-year-old can do. But she has truly made an impact in my life to giving and opening up. And she's always taught us to be us and be givers you know and just love people when they are. I love that about her. Pop Culture Passionistas: [00:27:27] Have you had any mentors that have helped you grow U First into what it is now? Erica Wright: [00:27:34] I'm going to be real honest. I think the people that I met on the journey, have all been a mentor and some some form or fashion. I've met people who had their own businesses to housewives to men who were just saying, "Hey, let me help you pick that up." And so it sparks that conversation to something else. "Oh, that's a great thing you're doing." "This happened to me." And I think those stories are the ones that make an impact in my life. I do love the stories of the Tyler Perry's people... I had the opportunity to meet Tyler Perry some years ago at the barbershop that I used to work in. He would come in and get a haircut. This is before he had any movies. And so he had a play he would bring these tickets and he would give them to us. And I remember going to the play and I was like, "It was okay." And then he stopped coming and I was like, "Oh my God, he used to come in the barbershop." So the stories that I hear about like Tiffany Haddish, who slept in her car. I get it because I believe in the law of attraction I believe in living your life with intention in your purpose and your vision. So I could hear in a little piece of her story in me when she talked about how she slept in a car outside of this mansion and said, "I'm going to live there." And so I have a couple of things in my phone that I'm praying that will happen for me. But it starts with that, just that dream. Pop Culture Passionistas: [00:28:51] What's your secret to a rewarding life? Erica Wright: [00:28:53] The secret is prayer, prayer. I am definitely, definitely, definitely in love with God. That is my secret. I know that I could not have done the things without God. And the experience of the vision that he gave me just to be in his presence. To be sitting here right now and talking about a passion of mine. Something that a lot of people don't take the chance to just step out on faith and do it. They're not willing to say, "I'm going to give up. I'm going to sacrifice to do this." So for me prayer and just knowing that God would do it. Pop Culture Passionistas: [00:29:34] Do you have a mantra that you live by? Erica Wright: [00:29:37] It is what it is and I like what I like. And I don't like it. Pop Culture Passionistas: [00:29:44] What advice would you give to someone who really wants to help but just doesn't know where to start? Erica Wright: [00:29:50] I would say do your homework, do your homework, Read. Just kind of have a visual what you would like to do and then try it just do it. I'm always open to people who say, "I can't do this. I can't come physically but I can financially contribute." Okay, well let's look at it differently. You don't just have to do monetary you can do a gift card for maybe McDonald's that we can give to some kids who can have after school lunch or something like that. So it's so many different things it's just really opening up the door first of all to let people know that they're welcome. A lot of times we hear other big groups, people can kind of get lost in that big corporation. So they go and volunteer but they don't get the fulfillment they need. So by us being a small group, people are kind of able to pick and choose the time. Well I don't want to do this. I Don't want to put the kits together but I just want to walk around and talk. And I just invite everybody to just come on out and how. Pop Culture Passionistas: [00:30:46] And how can people specifically help U First? Where do they go? What Do you need from people right now? Erica Wright: [00:30:53] We have a wish list on our website which is ProjectUFirst.org. Also we have a like page on Facebook. We have a group on Facebook called the Project U First. and we're on Twitter — ProjectUFirst, as well — and Instagram. Also on the wish list through our website, you can you know, if you want to send items to us, so if peple like to buy like a gift card, all of those links are on there .And we're definitely in need of, again, the items that we have printed on there. Just coming off this last trip has depleted our inventory, so we could use those items. Pop Culture Passionistas: [00:31:29] What are you proudest of in your journey so far? Erica Wright: [00:31:32] Connections. Connections. To see people connected. The people that I've met along the journey and now they're connected. We're a family. The U First team is truly a family and is from different make ups in life. We often use different websites to get people to come from different corporate sponsors like Delta or CNN. The employees will come and it will just take that one person to go back and say, "Oh my God, we did an amazing thing. We put fifteen hundred kits together last week and we took them to the shelters." And so once they come they interact with each other and then they exchange numbers. And also to see people use technology. Social media is free, well some are free, but if you use it in an effective way it can be your best friend or it can be dangerous on the opposite side. But I think social media and just being able to have a wide platform from people from different places. And then we're engaging as one. So I definitely love to see people come together. Pop Culture Passionistas: [00:32:36] What's your definition of success? Erica Wright: [00:32:38] I'm still learning that. Because sometimes I feel as if there's so much for us to do. And time waits for no one. And I believe that every day that we get up. And we're able to breathe we can do something different. So for me success is every day. It's every day that you're able to get up and make a difference in someone's life. Do something. What did you learn today? And even as an adult, I'll say, "I don't know if I should've done it." But I think definitely, every day success is a successful story.    

Good grief can we get into a regular rhythm with posting these episodes? Nah- probably not. We like taking abnormally long breaks to make you annoyed. just for fun. So Yeah. Listen as we blaze thru our favorite movies of 2018, even though we only saw like, 4 movies. Obviously we take a detour to talk star wars. But we talk Brandon Sanderson's Cosmere for a good long while. So saddle up. Buckle in and get to know us. Again.

Love it, hate it, avoid it, crave it... we all have strong feelings about the same thing: MONEY! Today's guest is Brittney Castro of Financially Wise, Inc and we're talking ALL THINGS MONEY. Before you click out and start a different podcast-- let me explain. I know that money can be a touchy subject, but in today's episode, we're going to help you drastically IMPROVE not just your financial game-plan, but how you think about money all together! Money mindset is absolutely HUGE when it comes to creating a life of abundance, so we'll share the top 3 ways that you can improve your money mindset right away. Plus, we're taking the fear and avoidance OUT of your relationship with money and discussing the best ways to approach saving, spending, and investing your money in your 20s and 30s! All of this, and more from today's guest, Brittney Castro, who is the founder and CEO of Financially Wise Inc., a Los Angeles-based financial planning firm whose mission is to teach individuals and couples the art of managing their money the fun and simple way. ​ Brittney is a Certified Financial Planner™, Chartered Retirement Planning Counselor, Accredited Asset Management Specialist, entrepreneur, and speaker. ​ After years of working in the corporate world of financial planning, Brittney realized she wanted to work with clients the same way she talks about money with her friends–in a fun, personal, compassionate, relatable and nonjudgmental way. That is why she created Financially Wise, Inc. in 2013 as a financial planning firm with services ranging from fee-only financial planning, online money courses, financial wellness workshops, speaking engagements and brand partnerships. ​ Brittney has become a well-known financial expert and a go-to resource for national media outlets. She's been featured on CNN, CNBC, The Wall Street Journal, The New York Times, CBS, KTLA, Good Day LA, Fox 11 News, Glamour, Elle, Marie Claire, Entrepreneur, Woman's World, and many more. She's also a coveted speaker and host, and she loves spreading her wisdom about finance, entrepreneurship and smart investing to more individuals. ​ So YEAH she's a total money badass and I cannot wait for you to soak up all of her insights and advice in this episode! I know that you'll walk away feeling empowered and educated about your finances and I PROMISE, it won't hurt one bit. Read the show notes: http://grindandbegratefulpodcast.com/episodes Follow Brittney: http://instagram.com/BrittneyCastro Check out Brittney's biz: http://financiallywiseinc.com Follow Marie: http://instagram.com/marieewold Follow the show: http://instagram.com/grindandbegratefulpodcast

Yo! It’s a new reality on Nugget Jar. So Yeah tag along

WOW HERE YE GO ANOTHER WEEK WENT BY ANOTHER EP FOR YR EARS AND SOUL. This week we have the absolute-fucking-honor of talking with Writers Guild of America, East (WGAE) Organizer Megan McRobert and Jezebel Senior Editor Katie McDonough. WE TALKIN BOUT ORGANIZING!! What does it MEAN?! WHO does it help?! Also - WE TALKIN BOUT WRITING AND JOURNALIZM - it's a big f'in deal folks. did u kno that NOT ONLY CONSTRUCTION WORKERS DESERVE UNIONS?! Welp, now is the time, so saddle up and listen in bc maybe yr mind will be blown and/or maybe yr mind will be happy bc this ep is delightful and fun! FYI: WGAE has organized over 1000 workers in digital media in less than three years, including Gawker (now GMG and includes Splinter News and The Root), VICE.com, VICELAND, VICE HBO, ThinkProgress, Salon, HuffPost, Slate, Thrillist, The Intercept, DNA/Gothamist, MTV News, Vox Media, Onion Inc, DNA/Gothamist. SO YEAH, THEY ARE A B. F. D. U can follow WGAE: @wgaeast ALSO THEIR UNION MEMBZ run accounts for a number of the unionized sites, including: @gmgunion, @vox_union, @onionincunion, @viceunion, @thrillistunion, @slateunion Music this week by KATE FREAKING NASH!!! (okay if u search for her it's just Kate Nash) but SHE Just came out with a new album and it is FREAKING GOOD so check it out: https://www.katenash.com/ Theme music as always by Brandon Payton-Carrillo!

SO YEAH here's a big ol mix of my fav jams of 2017, or at least most of them. enjoy! tracklist: 1. Flamingosis - Groovin' feat. Yung Bae 2. PG Bauer - This Money 3. Dom Rimini - All Is House 4. Vince Staples - Party People 5. Da Posse - In the Heat of the Night (The Black Madonna's It's Called Acid Remix) 6. Kawasaki - 2000 and One (Mark Blair's Vocal Rave Mix) 7. M|O|O|N - Hydrogen 8. Yung Bae - Bae City Rollaz (w/ИΔΤVИ) 9. Armand Can Helden - Still In Love feat. Karmen 10. Yo Majesty - Club Action (Smookie Illson Booty) (DJ Fixx & Keith Mackenzie Edit) 11. Lorenzo BITW - Goo feat. Kwam 12. DJ Wonder - Make Me Over 13. Charli XCX - Trophy 14. Fifth Harmony - Work From Home (Yeahhbuzz' Smoked Salmon Remix) 15. Danny L Harle - 1UL 16. Acidwolf - Blue Morning Drive 17. Grimes - Kill Vs. Maim 18. Pusherman - Donut 19. Lorenzo BITW - In A Bottle 20. Soda Plains - She Has All Kinds Of Temperatures 21. Sega Bodega - 3310 22. Ikonika - Idiot 23. Canblaster - Clockworks 24. Tinashe - Superlove (Danny L Harle Remix) 25. Sabrepulse - Addicted to Love (Brent Kilner x Zerg Bootleg) 26. Pelikann - Internal Blue Screen 27. Darude - Sandstorm (Candyland's OG Remix) 28. Farsight - Starduster 29. Kaiya Wolf - Pinatas 30. Wiley - 6 in the Bloodcart Morning 31. Cardi B - Bodak Yellow (Uniiqu3 Remix) 32. Vaski - 3AM (Lenkemz Remix) 33. Jackal - Gunshot feat Jammin (Whipped Cream Remix) 34. Lil Crack - Harmful Sequence 35. N-Joi - Mindflux (Myler Remix) 36. Cool Tweens - Sexual 37. Nightwave - Luxor (Big Dope P Remix) 38. Albino Gorilla - Lalala Ooo 39. Tyler, the Creator - See You Again 40. Onnanoko - Stay (Hercelot Remix) 41. Rushhh - U

WEE WOO WEE WOO!!! LIVE UPDATE ALERT!!! WE BE STREAMING ON TWITCH TOMORROW (AT A TIME MAYBE LIKE CLOSE TO AFTER 6PM EST?)! SO YEAH. THAT'S ABOUT IT. SORRY FOR ALL THE YELLING. I'm cool now. Nice and calm. Like the stream will be. Probably. Just come and hang out. https://www.twitch.tv/cinematickangaroocourt

Hey Guys and welcome to the third episode of the podcast now with descriptions YAY :D, you know the ladies love the D ... Descriptions.So Yeah this episode is about Games that were coming soon , and was recorded in 2010 ... Yeah I know sound quality is bad, but Meh... I was 15 ok, you can't blame me.Hope you guys have enjoyed this episode, I know episode 2 isn't up here but that is for a good reason, it's a MP4 , so you can view that on youtube, I don't even know why I made an MP4 episode, I need to go back in time and ask my 15 year old self.www.getalifepodcast.com (Reupload)